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Shopping for success The three rules in retail
"Better before cheaper" and "revenue before cost" can help retail leaders think through strategies for omnichannel presence, global expansion, and customer engagement.
The retail industry has faced more disruptive changes in consumer behavior over the last decade than in the last century. The face of retail has shifted dramatically in the past 25 years from brick-and-mortar stores and catalogs to omnichannel. The era of the connected consumer, spurred by technology innovation, has forced retailers to fundamentally rethink almost every aspect of their operations. Mobile devices are making it easier for customers to find what they are looking for, check competitor pricing on the go, and learn from the buying experiences of friends and family via social media. Omnichannel retail is here; how should retailers respond?
The face of retail has shifted dramatically in the past 25 years from brick-and-mortar stores and catalogs to omnichannel.
Many retail executives are asking, "How do we compete in this changed world where the connected consumer is king?" Changing market conditions and new entrants have resulted in retailers being faced with numerous strategic alternatives. The ability to create a truly differentiated position in a crowded marketplace may require bold action and difficult decisions on trade-offs between quality and cost, location and convenience, and service and price. Given the myriad of options, how should management choose? How do leaders make the right decision? What principles should guide their decision making?
In a recently published book, The Three Rules: How Exceptional Companies Think, Michael Raynor and Mumtaz Ahmed provide guiding principles ("three rules"), based on extensive empirical research, that companies can adopt to differentiate themselves and sustain long-term performance (for details, see the sidebar "About The Three Rules"). To explore this concept, we have selected three current trends that are top of mind for many retail executives—omnichannel presence, globalization, and customer engagement—and discussed how the rules apply in each case. Our objective is to create a lens through which retailers can consider their choices relative to their peers. In the next few sections, we will discuss how retailers are approaching these trends and adapting the three rules to drive revenue and achieve exceptional performance.
About The Three Rules
More than five years ago, Deloitte launched the Exceptional Company research project to determine what enabled companies to deliver exceptional performance over the long term. Adopting a uniquely rigorous combination of statistical and case-based research, this project has led to over a dozen publications in academic and management journals, including the Strategic Management Journal, Harvard Business Review, and Deloitte Review.1 The fullest expression of this work to date is in The Three Rules: How Exceptional Companies Think (www.thethreerules.com).2
The project studied the full population of all publicly traded companies based in the United States at any time between 1966 and 2010, encompassing more than 25,000 individual companies and more than 300,000 company-years of data. Performance was measured using return on assets (ROA) in order to isolate the impact of managerial choices: Measures such as shareholder returns often confound company-level behaviors with changes in investor expectations.
Using a simulation model, the researchers estimated how well each company "should" have done given its industry, size, life span, and a variety of other characteristics. They then compared this theoretical performance with how well each company actually did. A company qualified as "exceptional" if it surpassed its expected performance by more than population-level variability would predict.
Not all exceptional companies are equally exceptional, however. The researchers identified "Miracle Workers," or the best of the best, and "Long Runners," companies that did slightly less well but still better than anyone had a right to expect. In the entire database, there were 174 Miracle Workers and 170 Long Runners.
To uncover what enabled these companies to turn in this standout performance over their lifetimes, the researchers compared the behaviors of Miracle Workers and Long Runners with each other and with "Average Joes," companies with average lifespan, performance level, and performance volatility.
First, to understand the financial structure of exceptional companies' performance advantages, the researchers pulled apart their income statements and balance sheets. This provided invaluable clues: Miracle Workers systematically rely on gross margin advantages, and very often tolerate cost and asset turnover disadvantages. In contrast, Long Runners tended to rely on cost advantages and lean on gross margin to a far lesser extent.
Then, detailed case study comparisons of trios—a Miracle Worker, Long Runner, and Average Joe—in nine different sectors revealed the causal mechanisms behind these financial results. Specifically, exceptional performance hinged on superior non-price differentiation and higher revenue, typically driven by higher prices. Nothing else seemed to systematically matter; in fact, exceptional companies seemed willing to change anything, and sometimes just about everything, about their businesses in order to sustain their differentiation and revenue leads.
Hence, the three rules:
1) Better before cheaper: Don't compete on price, compete on value.
2) Revenue before cost: Drive profitability with higher volume and price, not lower cost.
3) There are no other rules: Do whatever you have to in order to remain aligned with the first two rules.
Intentional choices outperform ad hoc decisions
While the rules seem intuitive to most, the majority of US companies—retailers in particular—do not follow them, and thus earn average returns in the market. Retailers today compete across multiple dimensions, including brand, price, selection, location, and experience, and spread their investment dollars across these areas. Our research discovered that consistent superior performers are intentional in determining the basis on which they choose to compete and in developing operating strategies to support their desired position. Their investments are focused and their conviction in defending their uniqueness is unwavering.
Company leaders could reasonably choose to go left or right. But in the face of ambiguity, they should choose the path consistent with the rules.
Given a certain strategic opportunity when there are different paths or alternatives that are defensible . . . company leaders could reasonably choose to go left or right. But in the face of ambiguity, they should choose the path consistent with the rules.
Omnichannel and the promise of free shipping
The competitive dynamics introduced by omnichannel retailing—an approach that seeks to provide consumers with a seamless experience across all channels—requires retailers to fundamentally shift their operating model. The market is rapidly evolving from separate sales channels and experiences to a more consistent interaction with the customer regardless of channel. Shopping has gone from an experience constrained by time and space to an experience that can take place anytime and anywhere. There are seemingly endless tactical operating decisions that need to be made to compete effectively in this environment. But in the absence of a strategic lens through which to evaluate these choices, a retailer could easily make tactical decisions that run counter to its desired competitive position.
For example, one frequent operating question is: Should we offer free shipping for products purchased online or in-store and fulfilled from another location? The cost of shipping for online or mobile purchases is significant for most retailers, and many struggle with whether to charge or ship "for free." On the one hand, collecting fees for shipping can become a small profit center within the supply chain; on the other, collecting fees could be inconsistent with a retailer's brand promise to the consumer. How executives approach the "free shipping" choice will differ based on whether a company's competitive positioning is driven by price or service, as well as by leaders' adherence to the three rules.
Shopping has gone from an experience constrained by time and space to an experience that can take place anytime and anywhere.
For retailers that compete on price, collecting fees for shipping makes perfect sense; provide the lowest online price and allow the consumer to select from a myriad of options and prices for receiving the products. Yet the three rules tell us that retailers that compete on price rarely achieve sustained superior profitability.
For retailers who compete on service and experience, the decision is much more difficult. How does the first rule—"better before cheaper"—apply? What constitutes "better?" Is it enough to offer free three- to five-day shipping and charge for expedited shipping? How does the consumer view the various options? Can the company hold the line on pricing to extract a significant enough "premium" to cover the added cost of shipping? These are all questions that need to be answered through the "better before cheaper" lens. A seemingly simple economic decision becomes suddenly much more complex.
But recall rule three: "There are no other rules." There are multiple ways to remain true to "better before cheaper" and "revenue before cost," and the specific choice a company makes will depend on its competitive environment, brand promise, customer characteristics, and other factors. To illustrate, consider how Home Depot and Coach, both Miracle Workers with a brand promise of service, have answered the question of shipping costs. Home Depot provides free standard shipping to home on most orders over $45, and Coach provides free standard shipping to home on all continental orders over $150.3 Each has responded differently depending on its individual circumstances, and each may vary the policy based on time of year, but each hewed to the rules. There is no recipe or sure-fire process for getting the right answer, but the three rules have kept them focused on the right path.
Going global with a unique value proposition
Expanding into new territories and untapped markets is an alluring prospect for growth. However, global expansion is a complex undertaking. It requires substantial planning and investment to develop a sound strategy. Many retailers have had to slow expansion because they did not fully appreciate the complexities of the political, economic, regulatory, and customer landscape or the local market's operational and governance requirements. For many US retailers, even the most obvious choice of expansion—into Canada—is not as easy as may be expected. Until recently, the Canadian market was difficult to expand into due to a weak Canadian dollar, higher costs, and limited real estate development.
The three rules can be instructive in helping to reduce pitfalls. Retailers use a number of strategies to expand into new markets, including strategic partnerships, acquisitions, and/or wholly owned expansion. Before developing their global strategy, retailers should understand their unique value proposition in the context of the rules. A key question to address is: How does the company differentiate itself today, and how should it position its brand in the global market in the future?
Many retailers assume that their brand will translate favorably into international markets without fully appreciating their own competitive position or the dynamics of the local market. In emerging markets like Mexico and Brazil, established retailers compete heavily on price. Because goods are already inexpensive, it is extremely difficult to improve margins with a strategy built on lower prices. This makes it even more important for retailers expanding into these emerging markets to focus on "better before cheaper" and "revenue before cost." Based on the research in The Three Rules, we have learned that price-based competition rarely delivers exceptional results in the long run. Retailers may have to reduce prices to adjust to local market economics when expanding globally, but a differentiated strategy guided by "better before cheaper" will create a brand that attracts and sustains customers going forward.
Many retailers assume that their brand will translate favorably into international markets without fully appreciating their own competitive position or the dynamics of the local market.
Even within a price-conscious market, there are multiple avenues for non-price differentiation. For example, Brazil's largest appliance and home electronics retailer, Magazine Luiza, offers credit to its customers and uses its extensive customer credit database to create loyalty programs that recognize high-volume customers. In a country where almost half the population does not have a checking account, Magazine Luiza provides various financial services, including personal loans, insurance policies, installments, and affordable credits. About 80 percent of Magazine Luiza's sales are on credit.4 Magazine Luiza's flexible approach to reaching Brazil's middle- and lower-income demographics with a variety of formats and payment options has positioned it well to avail itself of the recent consumer boom the country has undergone. Magazine Luiza has differentiated itself by making profit a function of factors other than price, such as how much credit was extended to customers and at what interest rates.
Magazine Luiza also uses the "revenue before cost" rule. One of the innovative strategies it has adopted is to set up virtual stores, which account for 52 out of the company's 350 stores. The virtual model is based on four major pillars: no on-site products, attentive on-site service, strong technological support, and integration with the community. A number of other companies have failed at implementing virtual store concepts because they adopted a self-service model to cut costs. Magazine Luiza, however, has invested in its customer service to educate and guide customers and to provide them with personalized service. The company is often ranked as one of the "best places to work" in Brazil.5 In addition, the company's marketing tactics include providing one hour of free Internet access to virtual store shoppers, with another hour free if a customer brings a friend. Magazine Luiza also sets aside space in its virtual stores for customer education, local charity partnerships, and customer information sessions.6 In short, instead of focusing on cutting costs, the company has invested in a number of ways to generate revenue.
Once a retailer has cleared the hurdles of selecting a market and developing a differentiated strategy, the method of entry can be significantly influenced by the three rules.
When planning international expansion, retail companies can consider reinvesting cost savings from developed markets to pursue growth in emerging markets—a good practice that aligns with the three rules. For example, one company is pursuing productivity savings in Europe and North America to fund investments in emerging markets. The company pays for investments in emerging markets by expanding gross margins and aggressively managing costs in North America and Europe, with a continued focus on delivering gross productivity of more than 4 percent of cost of goods sold and driving overhead savings. The majority of its margin savings in North America will come from reinventing the supply chain network, introducing new production lines that incorporate leading-edge technologies, and repatriating production from co-manufacturers. In Europe, the company is already competitive with peers, but it is targeting an improvement of 250 basis points in operating income margin. The company intends to reach this target by streamlining its supply chain and by continuing to reduce overhead. Steps toward the latter include the integration of Central European countries into the company's centralized category-led model and the use of service centers in low-cost locations. The company anticipates these actions will expand base operating income margin over the next three years and plans to reinvest a portion of these savings to fund growth in emerging markets and to fund ongoing restructuring.
Once a retailer has cleared the hurdles of selecting a market and developing a differentiated strategy, the method of entry can be significantly influenced by the three rules. For example, if a retailer has determined that its competitive advantage lies in the brand experience and customer service, a franchise model may be inappropriate. In a franchise arrangement, a retailer may cede too much control over operating decisions such as assortment planning and staffing levels to the franchisee, adversely impacting the customer experience. A strategy of "owned stores" in a particular market, while perhaps generating slower growth and requiring greater initial capital investment, could provide the level of control necessary to ensure a "better before cheaper" customer experience globally.
To underscore how the three rules can apply during global expansion, even among retailers whose brand is built explicitly on offering low prices, consider Costco's entry into Taiwan.7 Costco opened its first store in Taiwan in 1997. Its Taiwanese business became profitable about five years after its initial investment, and has been profitable ever since. Although the Costcos in Taiwan, like their US counterparts, try to guarantee that their prices are the market's lowest, they use many techniques to also apply "better before cheaper." Examples include:
- Balancing the foreign with the familiar: The stores strive to offer an "American experience" while cultivating local tastes, making the Taipei store the chain's second most profitable.
- Leveraging US-origin goods: About 40 percent of the chain's merchandise is from the United States, making it stand out from local and foreign rivals. The Taipei store's top bakery item is bagels, which use dough imported from New York. The store sells 54,000 units a week.
- Adapting to local tastes: Costco's Kirkland brand beef steak, which is a US store product, is thinly sliced to satisfy local preferences for hot-pot meat, for instance. Fish are sold whole instead of filleted. And in the food court, alongside American soda and pizza are such local variations as Peking duck pizza.
- Implementing leading practices: Costco has trained local suppliers to use Costco-style pallets and forklifts to save on labor, an example of both cutting costs and increasing revenue via increased volume.
- Improving service: Costco introduced the concept of a generous return policy in a culture where returning merchandise is uncommon. For instance, Costco allowed locals to return half a watermelon because it was not sweet enough. The company made the return experience so pleasurable that it become an advertising item.
There is no sure strategy for a successful global expansion. However, retailers seeking to penetrate new markets will be faced with numerous decision points where they will have to pick among many, seemingly equally reasonable options. Based on our research, the option that is most aligned with the three rules is most likely to result in long-term success.
Honing "better" to engage customers
Given the various avenues available today to drive customer loyalty, retailers are constantly challenged by how best to engage the consumer. The ability to anticipate the customer's needs and to provide quality products and services yields repeat customers. However, identifying a customer engagement strategy that effectively aligns with evolving consumer behavior can be a difficult task. If retailers are to follow the three rules, they must understand how to define "better" for themselves.
Retailers must ask themselves: What are the elements of the brand, experience, or connection with the customer that cannot be sacrificed? Without a specific focus, the connection with the customer will be hollow and not yield the desired result. This area may be the trickiest in which to apply the three rules, but the costs of failing to do so are high, as the case of Filene's Basement illustrates. The company, subsequently purchased by Syms Corporation, was a legendary "off price" department store known for its deals on high-end merchandise.8 However, it filed for bankruptcy in 2011 due to its inability to develop non-price differentiation amid a shifting marketplace. With increased competition from department stores, its original differentiator in the marketplace—price—was no longer a factor, giving its rivals equal footing. Filene's inability to define "better" to generate customer loyalty was ultimately its undoing.
Any good customer engagement strategy begins with segmentation. Decisions on target segments help inform choices about how and where to invest in developing a relationship with the customer. If a customer engagement strategy targets the Millennial generation, for example, then the way the company engages these consumers will be tailored to their particular characteristics. We know that Millennials comprise more than 20 percent of the current population, that they grew up using technology, and that they are early adopters of new innovations. They are accustomed to having their life on display through various avenues and they are known to value diversity and change. Many want their lives to have meaning; therefore, community involvement and self-expression are important to them.
Given this context, retailers targeting this market may experience success by investing in social causes that embody the brand's essence, as well as investing in tools to support and streamline customer engagement. Millenial consumers may be more willing to pay for a brand if they understand how it connects to their value system. Consider TOMS, the popular footwear retailer. TOMS has invited its customers to actively participate in its philanthropy by purchasing their products. Through its One for One program, TOMS has committed to help one person in need through various giving programs for every product purchased by a customer. TOMS has been able to effectively link its charitable activity to customer purchases. This is a simple way that TOMS has been able to tie a social cause to the brand and actively engage its customer base. By purchasing a product, the customer is essentially making a donation that collectively impacts children in over 50 different countries. TOMS's engagement strategy is one of many equally valuable options that retailers can consider. The specific choice is less important than the type of choice made: the choice to strive to be uniquely better, not uniquely cheaper.
In applying the three rules to marketing investments, branding and social causes may be two areas of cost that should not be sacrificed for the sake of savings. When the goal is to achieve sustained exceptional performance, the need to connect with the customer to drive revenue could far outweigh the value of strategies to reduce cost. Other areas of marketing, such as advertising or special promotions, may be susceptible to change. Remember: "There are no other rules."
A call to action
Retailers need to know what they stand for in the long term to maintain a differentiated position in the marketplace. Differentiation is especially difficult in retail, which is an industry of "fast followers": When a competitor sees a successful strategy elsewhere, it will move quickly to replicate that success. Staying the course and constantly applying the three rules is difficult. It requires leadership to make hard decisions in the short term for long-term gain. The ability to stay true to a long-run strategy will lend itself to exceptional performance.
There are several steps that retailers can consider in applying the three rules.
Step 1: Develop a clear picture of the competitive strategy
Retailers must honestly evaluate their value proposition in the market to effectively capitalize on it. Consider the premium that has been placed on product, service, or location, and make sure that strategic decisions support that position. According to the three rules, differentiation and pricing power are the most important goals in relation to the overall strategy.
Step 2: Be willing to make trade-offs
Any ongoing initiative or project that may conflict with the basic strategy should be re-evaluated. Existing projects may need to be abandoned in order to align resources appropriately. If the strategy involves launching a social media platform, then ongoing investments in a direct mail campaign may not be appropriate, for example. Remember that an undifferentiated strategy is not a strategy likely to yield superior results.
Step 3: Engage the entire organization
The ability to on-board resources and successfully integrate diversity of thought under one strategy can help drive a successful outcome. As an organization, take the time to define which operating principles are non-negotiable, and instill those into each associate. Successful retail campaigns adopt consistency across all organizational platforms; the same message is communicated regardless of which channels or personnel are delivering it.
Step 4: Continually measure success
In order to measure progress, organizations must know how well they are performing. Selecting the right metrics to monitor is a critical first step. While The Three Rules research used return on assets to measure relative performance—to take advantage of its combination of profitability and asset utilization measures—there are many others that can be employed. Committing to a consistent set of measurements will provide a compass for navigating the competitive waters and determining the degree of success. For retailers, evaluating additional profitability ratios such as comparable store sales, gross margin, and operating margin is equally valuable.
While every company is different, the three rules provide substantive—yet flexible—guiding principles that managers can put into action. Each company can chart its own course to market differentiation. Each can find its secret ingredient to propel it to new heights of performance.
The question is simple: How should you apply the three rules to your own strategy to differentiate yourself? How do you define "better" or increase your focus on revenue over cost? For retailers, the ability to anticipate and meet customer needs is the highest priority. The path to extended success, maybe even miracles, is to pursue opportunities that leverage the concepts of differentiation and pricing power without sacrificing the organization's mission.
Deloitte's Retail & Wholesale Distribution practice helps retailers and wholesalers address issues across areas including customer, channel, and market strategy; merchandising; supply chain; ERP and enterprise transformation; M&A; and talent management. We serve companies operating in general/mass merchandise, food and drug, apparel and specialty, and Internet retail, as well as diversified and specialty wholesale. Contact the authors for more information or learn more about our Retail & Wholesale Distribution practice on www.deloitte.com.


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Jharden Davis, 16, from Moerewa, brought his 2-week-old piglet Haramai to Waitangi. It was very cute.
The pet perfectly sums up the two days at Waitangi - the politicians' visit on the 5th and yesterday's public holiday - anything goes.
In Ngapuhi-land there's never a shortage of characters - villains (often the media, people here moan), the eloquent, comedians or otherwise. Other iwi, regarded here colloquially as "from down the line", generally manage some sort of outward discipline for visitors, but in the north there's sometimes a loony looseness.
It's the thing you love about the region but it's also the feature that at times can be ugly.
I'd like to write off "Grannygate" as a knitting needles at mid-morning kind of dispute, except for the lonely figure Ani Taurua cut quietly facing a collection of Harawira women.
Waitangi on the first day is without fail essentially nutty.
Te Tii Marae with the Prime Minister's visit isn't the place for any kind of real dialogue. That's the way it is. But other things do happen here.
Important issues are raised in the annual Iwi Chairs Forum, but the group is somewhat aloof from the people as much of the debate happens behind closed doors, except for a session where the PM visits, which is open to media.
Community groups, marae, health and sports organisations and Sir Owen Glenn's child and domestic abuse inquiry have all had things going on.
The second day is lovely. Kiwis of all persuasions hang out in the sun, get burned and eat too much.
The hikoi are generally tame affairs, where every kaupapa/concern under the sun gets an airing. It's part of the fabric of the event - they're boring traditions.
Anyway, the piglet's name means welcome. An auspicious name really, at the home of the Treaty of Waitangi.

subset: commoncrawl


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It's a #BlogEATBlog World….four people, hotdog toppings and a Sunday in Brick Lane
This past Sunday I was fortunate enough to take part in the third heat of #BlogEATBlog, a good natured cooking contest involving some of the web's leading food bloggers and tweeters, and the superb hot dogs of Big Apple Hot Dogs.
The task was straightforward – make my own gourmet topping for a gourmet hot dog. Trust me, it's not as easy as it looks.
After multiple test runs and a frantic Saturday producing litres of the final mixture, I had produced my ultimate hot dog topping – a creation I've called Damson Relish:
Recipe (made in small batches)
- 2kg Home Made Gherkins – diced
- 800g Red Onions – Coarse Chopped
- 20 Red Chillis – finely chopped
- 20 Green Chillis – finely chopped
- 200ml – 10yr Old Single Malt Scotch – we used Ardbeg
- 1litre Damson Mixture
- Rosemary – to taste
- Cumin – to taste
- Paprika – to taste
- Cajun Spices – to taste
- Salt – to taste
- 40 Rashers of Smoked Streaky Bacon
After two weeks of pickling in a secret mixture of vinegar, spices and seeds in the cupboard where we keep the snow shovel, vacuum cleaner and the electricity meter, drain the gherkins and dice into nice big chunks, then fry off the excess moisture and put to once side.
Coarsely chop the onions and then marinate in the Scotch. Hold back some of the scotch for use later.
Finely chop the chillis, mix with the marinated onions and lightly fry off the excess moisture.
Recombine the gherkins on a low heat, add salt and spices to taste and stir in.
Then add the Damson mixture and simmer on a low heat.
Add in the rest of the Scotch once the mixture starts to thicken. Then allow the mixture to simmer and thcken some more until sticky.
Rest and cool.
You then end up with something like this:
Thanks to Sue Aron at The Art of Puddings for the help on the Damson mixture front.
On the morning of the contest, I crispy fried the bacon and blitzed it into small pieces for sprinkling on top of the mixture.
So, having created the mixture and loaded it into Tupperware boxes, I headed to Brick Lane's Vibe Bar where I met up with Abiye Cole from Big Apple Hot Dogs (@bigapplehotdogs) and the three other competitors.
In addition to me, three other contenders took part in this heat (the third of four heats), each bringing an excellent, homemade and exciting twist to topping a hot dog.
First up was Paul Lomax (@paullomax) with his Canadian-inspired Poutine Hot Dog. A mixture of homemade cheese curds, gravy and crunchy topping went into this one. By far the most unusual, and very tasty too. Great combination of textures and favours.
Next was Rose (@_RosieT) with her classic Chilli Cheese Dog, with a mixture of yellow and red cheese, this not only tasted nice, but had a classic American look.
Finally we have Sam (@steampie) with his Bourbon Bacon Marmalade with Crispy Leeks. Delicious topping, and the Crispy Leeks were fantastic. We were adding them to everything at one point, and they make a great bar snack on their own.
Here are all four toppings on Abiye's amazing fresh hot dogs.
My hot dog is liberally topped with the Damson Relish, then topped off with sprinkled crispy bacon to add a nice smoky, salty bacon crunch. Frying off the gherkins ensures they retain their crunch, even after the cooking and combining with the sauce mixture. The chillies add a small amount of heat, but mostly contribute flavour and colour, while the 'drunken onions' that were combined with a generous potion of peaty, smoky Scotch proved to be a real winner with the customers, as well as adding a unique flavour to the overall relish.
Overall I was really pleased with how the relish turned out. The feedback from the many Big Apple Hot Dogs customers that opted to have my topping on all or part of their hot dog was really positive, as has been the feedback on Twitter.
The winner of my heat has yet to be announced, but whoever it is, along with the winners of the previous two heats and this coming Sunday's fourth heat, they will go through to a grand final to become overall champion and have their name added to Abiye's cart. It's not about the prize, it's about the build 🙂
If you came along and tried the toppings, do please vote on Twitter using the hashtag #BlogEATBlog.
Thanks to everyone who participated and to all the people who made the journey to Brick Lane to try the hot dogs. We had a great time and I hope you did too!


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With the return of as many as 18 letterwinners, the 2011 Flying Dutchmen will be seeking to build on a conference championship season. A year ago coach Steven Smith's Flying Dutchmen had an amazing finish to the season to gain a co-championship of the Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association (MIAA) with rival Calvin and a berth in the NCAA Division III championships.
The 2010 Flying Dutchmen went undefeated in the second half of the conference season to gain the league co-championship and thanks to a pair of victories over rival Calvin gained the MIAA's automatic berth in the NCAA Division III championships. The team ended 13-6-2 overall.
Over the past decade the Flying Dutchmen have won nearly 80% of their matches (157-46-17) with five conference championships and five appearances in the NCAA playoffs.
Coach Smith begins his 22nd season at the helm of the men's soccer program. He ranks among the inningest NCAA Division III coaches with a career record of 291-96-33. His mark against MIAA opponents is 200-54-19.
The pre-season roster of returning players includes seven sophomores, five juniors and six seniors. The co-captains of the team will be seniors Shaun Groetsema of Augusta (Galesburg-Augusta HS), Logan Neil of Holland (West Ottawa HS), Jeffrey Stusick of Stevensville (Lakeshore HS), and David Whitaker of Vicksburg (Vicksburg HS). Each of the co-captains received All-MIAA honors in 2010. A goalkeeper, Neil was voted the MIAA's most valuable player. He was joined on the All-MIAA first team by Groetsema and Whitaker while Stusick received second team recognition. Groetsema and Neil also received All-Region honors. Neil, who is also a member of the Hope basketball team, has ranked among the nation's top Division III goalkeepers. Over 37 career starts he has allowed just 24 goals.
Other returning letterwinners include senior Andrew Abe of Naperville, Ill. (Naperville North HS), senior Paul Austin of Grandville (Grandville HS), sophomore Mickey Biebelhausen of Rochester (Rochester Adams HS), junior Maxwell DeBoef of Plainwell (Plainwell HS), junior Luke Dishnow of Saline (Saline HS), junior Jeff Ekdom of Holland (Holland Christian HS), sophomore Nicholas Heyboer of Grand Haven (Grand Haven HS), junior Conor Hughes of Plainfield, Ill. (Plainfield North HS), sophomore Ben Lemmen of Holland (Holland Christian HS), junior Jason Muller of Petoskey (Petoskey HS), sophomore Grant Neil of Holland (West Ottawa HS), sophomore Matthew VanZytveld of Grand Haven (Grand Haven HS), sophomore Brayden West of West Olive (West Ottawa HS), and sophomore Cole Whitaker of Vicksburg (Vicksburg HS).
The Flying Dutchmen will play nine home games, mostly under the lights of beautiful Van Andel Stadium which will see its third season of use.


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Town Square
RE: editorial, "City Union Workers Watch Out"
Original post made by anon, Another Pleasanton neighborhood, on Sep 19, 2008
Firefighters work 10 regular days per month and most have the option to sign up for virtually unlimited overtime at time and one half pay. The employer (Pleasanton taxpayers here) supplies not only the "room and board" but generally pays for premium cable fees and internet access (to alleviate boredom), workout equipment (to keep them in shape) and a better living facility than many residents in this town could afford. There are few, if any, limits to what firefighters can do while on duty as long as they remain available for response. Many have second jobs that they successfully run while being paid by taxpayers as firefighters. They have very generous pay and pensions.
Yes, firefighters CAN have a dangerous job. Fire prevention in the last few years has become so good that the majority of assistance calls are medical in nature. This is a good thing but please get off the soapbox that firemen "constantly run into burning buildings." The Pleasanton FD were not first responders to the World Trade Center on 9/11.
Speaking of pensions -- did you know that ANY firefighter in California who retires on a disability will collect their entire pension tax free for life? Their current pension structure will pay them 80% of their final earnings (with raises every time a new contract is negotiated) for life -- TAX FREE. Now you see why every firefighter starts the evidence trail from day one about every "injury" adding toward their eventual "disability" retirement.
Speaking as one who values hard work, I have never had a problem with paying public safety officers a more than average salary. I object to the excessive benefits package, particularly the tax free pensions and medical coverage, that has contributed to a hard line on the part of city managers throughout California. This is not unique to Pleasanton and it needs to stop. A two tiered system is a start since no current employees are willing to get off the gravy train.
Comments (47)
a resident of Livermore
on Sep 19, 2008 at 11:09 am
did somebody say gravy! yum yum
a resident of Jensen Tract
on Sep 19, 2008 at 2:15 pm
In Pleasanton the firefighters spend more time at Safeway planning their meals than working. The job needs to change to give them real responsibilities during the unbelievable amount of free time.
No soapboxes about how hard they work, everyone knows the above post is true. Everyone laughs about the truck always being at Safeway or Luckys.
The City pensions are ridiculous not just the firefighters.
a resident of Livermore
on Sep 19, 2008 at 3:18 pm
I like and suppport all hard working firefighters.
If you want to be a firefighter, then you will have to line up, complete a job application and then pass all of the required tests.
Until you do that, please shut up!
I am delighted that firefighters are well paid and receive well earned benefits.
David, you might be interested in working as volunteer cook and shopper for the firefighters if you want to help out!
a resident of Mission Park
on Sep 19, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Good idea, David you should do their shopping because all of those trips to Safeway take time away from playing video games at the station.
a resident of Foothill Farms
on Sep 19, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Another fact about the new contract is that the reason the new employees will come on at lower pay and benefits is that the current employees refused to give up anything to prevent that. Many years ago my union members voted, nearly unanimously, to take substantial pay and benefit cuts so that the newly hired employees would not be second class citizens. Where is it written that if you become a public safety officer you are guaranteed never to suffer the consequences of an economic recession? When has any police or fire department EVER not gotten raises, let alone taken cuts? With the one and only exception being Vallejo, it has never happened.
Firefighters used to be required to perform building safety inspections during their down time. Have you ever seen a Pleasanton FD employee doing that? Maybe they are inspecting Safeway, two or three times a day. They have so much free time at the station and on their 21 days a month off that there is one bay area city that employs a firefighter who is also a full time airline pilot! (I didn't believe it either, I called the department and it was confirmed). Now there is a good deal. Two full paychecks, two pensions, twice the medical coverage and still more time off than most of us who worked one full time job.
My former neighbor, firefighter for a major city, could not remember more than 2 full blown fires in his entire career. He surely earned his pay on those days but how about all of the others? But, of course, he retired on a disability retirement to get it all tax free as told by the first poster above.
The one thing noticed in Pleasanton is that the department apparently has a policy against on duty firefighters sitting around at Starbucks. In San Jose it was not possible to even get a seat at a Starbucks for a couple of years after 9/11 due to all of the egos, I mean firefighters, sitting there. Quit rubbing it in or faces guys, those who pay your salaries have about had enough.
a resident of Downtown
on Sep 20, 2008 at 12:40 am
Wow, who knew folks had so much pent up frustration to our loyal public safety members? Hope they never have to respond to a fire at your house, seeing as how they really don't do anything or have any real training. Pul-lease!
Thank you Livermore-Pleasanton Fire for your service.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Sep 20, 2008 at 7:59 am
Get real. This type of tiered benefit plan is becoming the norm. AT&T has several plans depending on when you were hired, which "merged" company you spawned from, and trust me -- the benefits are not moving in a positive direction for the employee body.
What's at the root of all of this? Upper Management Greed. In the Corporate world, CEOs get huge compensation packages regardless of how well the company and its stock performs. I find it hard to believe that same way of thinking does not apply here, as well.
I'd also venture to guess greed is responsible for the current financial institution mess we, as the middle class, are all paying the price for.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Sep 20, 2008 at 9:21 am
Livermore-Pleasanton Fire would you like paper or plastic?
a resident of Amberwood/Wood Meadows
on Sep 20, 2008 at 10:16 am
Nancy--no one here has said a thing about the firemen not being qualified or not doing anything. We know they are good at what they do, they just get paid too much for all of the sitting around time. And those tax free pensions are a complete crock. I know a fireman who crashed on his mountain bike, tore up his knee, then managed to get to work and "fall off of the fire truck" while cleaning it. Yup, retired on a tax free disability. Corporate greed is certainly the cause of problems in the free market but it does not really apply here. Last I heard, the police chief and fire chief were not ratcheting up their salaries or claiming huge bonuses while cutting pay for the rank and file. Unlike what happens in the rest of the world.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Sep 20, 2008 at 12:38 pm
wish i had those benefits - Corporate Greed may not apply, but based on your "fall off the fire truck" scenario, personal greed clearly does.
I respect the job these guys do, but a tiered benefits plan isn't that bad and certainly not worth whining about. At least they have benefits.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Sep 21, 2008 at 8:34 am
I have always felt we pay too much for programs offered through the City. Most city's offer programs at low cost through their parks and rec programs. Art, sports or even first aid programs in Pleasanton are expensive, if you have more than one child the cost can be prohibitive. I can take a yoga class at the community college for less than with the city. Pleasanton will not build a youth center or a bigger library (we talk about building them). Why is this when we are the "richest city for its size?" I keep hearing the retirement benefits are the reason.
I would like the PW to do a real balanced article on salaries and retirement for City staff compared to other cities and compared to the private sector. What age are our people retiring at and what do they receive? What is the retirement of the upper management that recently retired, City Manager, Police Chief, Fire Chief, Planner, parks and rec managers and director.
Is Pleasanton's salary and retirement out of scale or not?
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Sep 21, 2008 at 8:12 pm
The problem is not with the city or the firefighters, it is the sky rocketing cost of health care! Vote wisely in November.
a resident of Oak Hill
on Sep 22, 2008 at 12:29 am
Reguardless of the salaries or retirement benefits, I'm glad the Firemen have time to sit around the Firehouse polishing their truck, shopping for groceries at Safeway or whatever they do on their down time. That means someone's house isn't burning or someone doesn't need medical attention.
If anyone feels these people are "over paid", complain to your elected City Official's. They approve all financial matters involving city employees.
a resident of Oak Hill
on Sep 22, 2008 at 12:34 am
Opp's, regardless not reguardless. Though I'd best issue a correction before the "Spelling Police" caught me...:)
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Sep 22, 2008 at 7:44 am
I want a job as a meteor responder with the City. I will sit around and play Galactica, getting paid a lot of money until I am needed. Jerry will feel safer because I do not need to rescue him from any meteors.
Firefighters should be given other responsibilities so they are productive everyday! The unions have become greedy pigs.
I heard it stated that 65% of the City budget is salary and benefits. Could that be why we can't afford a bigger library or community center?
a resident of Amador Estates
on Sep 22, 2008 at 8:53 pm
It is actually "oops" and NOT Opp's.
It is "catch" and NOT caught.
a resident of Oak Hill
on Sep 23, 2008 at 1:45 am
Well, well!!!
The "Spelling Police" are on duty after all!!!
Now, Madam Officer. You're certainly correct about the "oop's" but since you discovered my mistake after it was made, which is quite apparent, am I "catch" or "caught"???
Keep up the good work... I need all the help I can get.:)
Let me know if the city gives you the job. Not long ago I was watching a Nature Channel program about a meteor heading our way. Since then I've worried about what I would do if it hit me. If the city gives you the job, I'll feel a lot better knowing you're there if I need you.
By the way, if your house was on fire would you be glad to see those "over paid" firemen arrive or would you send them away and wait for firemen with a lower pay scale.
What if those "over paid" firemen were on the other side of town performing "other responsibilities" and couldn't get to your house in time to rescue you, or members of your family, from the burning structure. Just wondering...
a resident of Val Vista
on Sep 23, 2008 at 8:29 am
After 9/!! it was like the Emperors New Clothes, we were all expected to buy into the hero thing. I respect firefighters, police, teachers, doctors but nurses are true heros.
It would not take away from their priority responsibility to have other real responsibilities.
Four years ago my son did a career report on firefighters. When we arrived at the they were all playing video games or watching TV. The young man that talked with my son was pleasant as he showed my son around and gave him a chronicle of his typical day, the highlight was taking a picture waring the jacket and helmet in front of the truck. When we left even my son was amazed at the lack of work that they did. He no longer wanted to be a firefighter.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Sep 23, 2008 at 6:52 pm
How many of you have sat in the hospital with your child's head split open while your spouse was at work and couldn't leave because there was no one to backfill their position and their contract requires a minimum staffing level? How many of you were back at the hospital with child number two with a broken arm and this time you are alone too because your spouse is again on duty? How many of you were on vacation during the Loma Prieta earthquake and had to return home because your spouse had been paged to work? Never mind the fact your children hadn't been picked up yet from the sitter nor had you checked out the damage in your own home before he/she had to leave. How many of you have spent multiple Christmas', Birthday's, Kid's Birthdays, etc. alone? How many of you have had to try and fill both parent's role (when you were married, not divorced) by going to multiple school events at the same time, multiple sporting events, etc. and trying to explain to your young child that mommy/daddy really does care about them but they have to work. How many of you have had to lay awake at night because your spouse was shipped off to the fires in San Diego, Paradise, Tahoe, etc…
Quit Whining – we all have choices in life and you chose the wrong profession! Get over it.
a resident of Country Fair
on Sep 23, 2008 at 10:03 pm
What is your point? Many of us cover the roll of both parents because our spouse has a demanding job. My husband would like to be around for our kids events but his job requires him to work very long hours and travel.
Fire fighters on the other hand are fortunate to work only a few days a month and have a lot more time available for their families.
a resident of Pleasanton Heights
on Sep 24, 2008 at 12:04 am
After reading Jerry's post I conclude he votes that we all take our bank accounts and dedicate them completely to providing lucrative benefits for life to our safety forces, because they might let our house might burn down if we don't overpay them (as fair paid firemen they might, implied by Jerry). Sort of like Black Hand, but in reverse. Just wondering....
a resident of Foothill Farms
on Sep 24, 2008 at 9:51 am
for Another AT&T employee:
Firefighting is not the only 24/7/365 job. Where were you on 9/11? I was sitting by the phone, which never rang, waiting to hear whether my spouse was alive or would be the next to have their throat slit and their plane used as a weapon. My spouse was gone for days at a time, not hours, when I needed support with family issues. My spouse never had any holidays off for many years, it is based on seniority, not a rotating fire department schedule that guarantees everyone at least some holidays off every year.
Laying awake worried about him fighting out of area fires? Count your money while you think. Firefighters are not ordered to go, they volunteer -- because they get paid at least time and a half for every single hour that they are away. Travel time, sleeping time, time and a half minimum. And many times they do not actually work the fire lines since they may not have wildland fire training. They stand reserve in the local fire houses since the locals are out in the forest. Not that it isn't important, just don't make it sound like they have no control over going.
And for Jerry: have a reality check. The days when you placed a monument outside your house - to signify that you had paid to have fire protection - were over hundreds of years ago.
Think I'll get a job with the city as a tsunami warner. Just sit around, get paid, earn a pension, and be ready to immediately race down Main Street warning everyone at the first sign of a tsunami. But curse the poor taxpayers who think that I should actually have a real job.
a resident of another community
on Sep 24, 2008 at 10:52 am
I hesitated at responding to this ignorant article as the phrase,'never argue with fools as people may not know the difference' comes to mind. It's comical/amazing to me when people 'spout off their mouths/minds' when they are uninformed. More research and study by this author needed to be done and obviously by some of those who added their 'sniping' comments, (i.e., on firefighters' monthly salaries/medical/retirement/injury/statistics, etc). My husband is a 'fireperson' in Pleasanton, holds a degree and numerous certifications, (many of which were obtained on his own time/money), and he has worked on some of the 'biggies'....Oakland Hills fire, Katrina, S.F. earthquake, large fires in and out of the state, etc.. Yes, they do have to eat on occasion and there are some 'down times'....but, they are the ones who respond to your food poisonings on Christmas or Thanksgiving.....to those who called 9-1-1 for menstrual cramps, the spoiled teen who tried to commit suicide because mommy and daddy had other priorities other than them, the 'umpteenth' senior citizen who feel out of bed at 2 a.m. and couldn't get up, the commuters who continually drive too fast/talking on their phone and end up injuring/killing themselves and/or others....all of this repetitiveness, and not to mention your fires, flooding, water rescues, etc. This article is downright laughable and I'll probably be sorry that I responded for whatever repercussions may occur.....I'm glad your local firefighters will keep responding because they really do care, (it ain't about the money for most of them....honestly, for what they do, the salary is a joke)....I'm personally very thankful that I don't live in your seemingly 'shallow' community and that you have given me reaffirmation of that fact. Yep, if it weren't for ignorant people and Mother Nature, my husband would be out of a job!
a resident of Foxborough Estates
on Sep 24, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Well said, Denise. Although I feel sure that the naysayers are not a representative sample of Pleasanton residents. I personally know many more people who are extremely grateful recipients of emergency services than the number of negative comments posted here. Perhaps people don't realize how much work goes into making Pleasanton seem like a peaceful place where nothing ever happens. Both police and fire services deserve major kudos for this. And by the way, for those who are interested in Pleasanton's public safety pay, many other communities pay more than Pleasanton.
a resident of Country Fair
on Sep 24, 2008 at 12:59 pm
"for what they do, the salary is a joke". Yeah, it is. Just not the way you meant it. Over a hundred grand for 10 days a month. 80% pay at retirement, which can be as early as age 50. The joke is on the taxpayers.
a resident of Laguna Vista
on Sep 24, 2008 at 3:44 pm
"the spoiled teen who tried to commit suicide because mommy and daddy had other priorities other than them, the 'umpteenth' senior citizen who feel out of bed at 2 a.m. and couldn't get up, "
Well said Denise!??? Really Becky?
And your point is that others are insensitive about your husbands income???
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Sep 24, 2008 at 6:25 pm
To Posted by T – I don't know where you got your information from but a top step Firefighter does not make a $100k a year for 10 days a month. Take a look at the salaries listed on the City of Pleasanton website. Top step is $6,400 a month which last time I took math $6,400 x 12 = $76,000. Not even enough of a salary to live in the "Most Affluent" city they protect. And for their retirement pay, the 80% is only calculated against their base pay, not their overtime pay.
And to Becky Dennis – kudos' to you --- it's a fact – the "Most Affluent" city has just about the lowest paid Firefighters in the Bay Area.
a resident of Oak Hill
on Sep 25, 2008 at 12:33 am
Now Frank, there you go off the deep end.
How did you come to your nonsensical conclusion concerning my post.
Can you point to where I implied someone would allow your house to burn if you didn't "overpay them", or, you should dedicate your funds to someone.
I have no way of determining if Pleasanton Firefighters are "overpaid" and I seriously doubt you do, either. If you're seriously concerned about their compensation have you voiced your concern to the elected city officials that approve their contract, again, I doubt it. Better yet, why not visit your local firehouse and voice your concern directly to the "overpaid" firefighters on duty. While you're there, they just might let you help polish the fire truck. It'll give you an opportunity to get the fresh air you seem to need.
By the way, another "benefit" that wasn't mentioned by anyone - the big "parade" their comrade's give them when they fall in the line of duty. Do you object to that "benefit".
I'll ask you the same question I asked Taxpayer.
Just wondering and waiting to see how you spin this one...
retired union worker,
Your "reality check" directed to me is as nonsensical as Frank's conclusion.
Denise Allson,
Please convey to your "overpaid" husband some in Pleasanton thank him for providing a much needed service and remind him to "be safe".
a resident of Livermore
on Sep 25, 2008 at 9:34 am
Dear Fireman, there are lots 'n lots of jealous bugs in Plutonia.
For some reason, they don't want you to have jobs with excellent benefits?
tee hee hee, tee hee hee...
keep on truckin' guys...let the jealous bugs eat cake...
a resident of Downtown
on Sep 25, 2008 at 12:34 pm
When you criticize don't let the facts get in the way, here are a few to consider.
Pleasanton particpates in Calif's employees retirement system, this means when an emploee retires the liability is with the state and not the city. The only pay raises after retirement may be up 2% if costs are rising. Retirees don not get the same raises as working city employees. The city does not have to pay Social Security Taxes and city employees will not get Social Security when they retire. For 15 years Pleasanton did not have to pay any money to the state retirement fund because they had done so well with thier investments.
A public safety officer (Police-Fire) can get up to a 50% tax free retirement for a complete and total disabilty, that is they are so injured they could not do any other job.
Yeterdays Times stated Pleasanton has the highest per capita income of any city in the USA between 60,000 and 260,000 people.Our city employees are not by any means the highest paid in that group, maybe they should be! All of this is public information for anyone who chooses to ask or look. But better yet why not take advantage of the citizens ride-along program with the Police or Fire and see what they really do.
The bottom line is I don't care what they do on their down time as long as the show up if I have to call 911.
a resident of Livermore
on Sep 25, 2008 at 1:02 pm
I don't think that Plutonians are upset about the firefighters. They're angry and always looking for a place to dump their internal trash.
The anger is mostly about frustration, feeling mistreated, cheated by their government and ignored by their legislators.
Anything that somebody leads them to, they're ready to dump their trash...sad, very sad. Rarely can Plutonians take the high road.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Sep 25, 2008 at 2:17 pm
While I am not an employee of the Livermore Pleasanton FD, I am a resident/taxpayer of Pleasanton and work for a neighboring bay area Fire Department. With that, respectfully I would like to clarify some inaccuracies included in the posts by anon and others..
anon wrote: "Firefighters work 10 regular days per month and most have the option to sign up for virtually unlimited overtime at time and one half pay"…
While on average it amounts to "10 days per month" I would hardly label them "regular" as anon has. The "10 regular days" are not 8, 10 or even 12 hr days. These are 24 hr days. 24 x 10 = 240 hrs per month at a minimum. I will concede that some of these hours in the evening, 3-6 per shift, are spent sleeping. The rest however are spent responding to and acting upon emergency calls for service, public education, building inspections, fire prevention, equipment and facility maintenance and training.
Training is a whole animal in itself, we're talking about fire ground operations, Fire Officer training, Engineer training, medical training, rescue ops, area familiarization, building familiarization, pre-plans, state and federally mandated daily, monthly and yearly training are a "few" that come to mind.
In regards to the "unlimited overtime" in my agency 8 out of 10 times this is more of a burden then a benefit. We're already working "240 hrs" per month compared to "160 hrs" per month of the 8am-5pm employee. Like the rest of you we would like to spend some time with our families, tuck the kids in at night, do yard work, work on the house, pay bills, wash the car or the dog, go to little league or soccer games, go out to dinner or do nothing. When there are no volunteers to work an extra 24 hrs what do you think happens? Someone's father, mother, husband, wife, son, daughter, brother or sister is told they're not going home today, they're working another 24 hrs! Very few of you have been approached at the end of a long hard 8, 10 or even 12 hr day of work and were told by your supervisor "thanks for the day of hard work but you need to stay another 12 hrs, Oh you need to pick your kids up from school, sorry you'll have to make other arrangements. No..you can't leave for twenty minutes to pick them up we need you here, there is no one else to do your job! But it's ok we're paying you time and one half!" Often times this is after we have just completed 48 or even 72 consecutive hrs on duty!...Please....keep the money! Time and one half pay it is, but what's the price of missing your children grow up? I'll pass on the money, but thanks anyhow.
anon wrote: "The employer (Pleasanton taxpayers here) supplies not only the "room and board" but generally pays for premium cable fees and internet access (to alleviate boredom), workout equipment (to keep them in shape) and a better living facility than many residents in this town could afford"….
The employer does in fact supply "room and board". The employer (city/taxpayers) does not provide food or incidentals (shampoo, toothpaste etc) for the employee. The uniqueness of this situation is the "room and board" is our office, the fire station. Don't most employers, either public or private, provide an office or work space for their employees? Is the employee required to bring their own toilet paper or hand soap to work? Do they require the employee to pay part of the electric, phone or water bill? Why should it be different for public employees?
As far as premium cable or any cable for that matter, none of this is paid for by the citizens. In my agency, as well as the LPFD, ( I've been told) all cable is paid for by the employees in the form of either direct payment from the employee or through union due which each employee had deducted from their wages monthly.
In regards to internet access, the employer (city, tax payers etc) does provide internet. Is the internet not a vital communication tool in all arenas of business in our world today? Email, faxes, documents, bulletins, daily correspondence, all of this is done electronically. Again should the employee be responsible for providing email in their place of employment to complete their required duties at work? Should we remove internet from all public buildings? Should we remove all phones as well?
In my agency and the LPFD (I've seen) some workout equipment is provided. Is it not clear why physical fitness is a priority in our line of work? 100 lbs of gear in 700 degree temperatures, crawling in zero visibility, second floor bedroom of a 3000 sqft residence and you come across a victim 100, 200 or 300 lbs. You find out real quick if all the blood and sweat you've put into your physical fitness program has prepared you for this. Rest assured when I'm on duty away from home I'm confident the members of the LPFD are physically ready to rescue members of all of our families. This is in no small part that, as tax payers, we have provided them a means by which to physically prepare for that challenge. We should be concerned if this WASN'T provided!
Not sure of the LPFD or City of Pleasanton policy but in my agency by no means are public employees to "run" a second business while on duty, anon you may want to do your homework on that one before making such a blanket statement.
anon wrote: "Yes, firefighters CAN have a dangerous job. Fire prevention in the last few years has become so good that the majority of assistance calls are medical in nature. This is a good thing but please get off the soapbox that firemen "constantly run into burning buildings." The Pleasanton FD were not first responders to the World Trade Center on 9/11"….
I guess because your fire department was not first responders to the World Trade Center they may or may not have a dangerous job? Pay them a visit I'm sure they would be more then happy to educate you.
anon wrote: "Speaking of pensions -- did you know that ANY firefighter in California who retires on a disability will collect their entire pension tax free for life. Their current pension structure will pay them 80% of their final earnings (with raises every time a new contract is negotiated) for life -- TAX FREE.
Flat out incorrect! If a firefighter has the unfortunate occurrence of having to retire due to a disability, their pension is based on what they have earned up to the time of the disability with 50% of THAT earning tax-free. Once you retire, disability or otherwise, future contract raises no longer apply to the retiree.
I believe LPFD (as is my agency) retirement is a 3% @ 50 factor. What that means is the retirement/pension is based on 3% of your highest earning base salary year for every year of service. So if an employee puts in 25 years with the FD he would get 75% of his highest year base salary. How does any of this equate to 80 % as anon has suggested?
I'd also like to address "a union worker" post, this individual wrote: "Laying awake worried about him fighting out of area fires? Count your money while you think. Firefighters are not ordered to go, they volunteer -- because they get paid at least time and a half for every single hour that they are away. Travel time, sleeping time, time and a half minimum. And many times they do not actually work the fire lines since they may not have wildland fire training. They stand reserve in the local fire houses since the locals are out in the forest. Not that it isn't important, just don't make it sound like they have no control over going."
We (all firefighters) are in fact "ordered to go". If you are on duty and the call comes in guess what, you're it. Saying we volunteer to go is like saying "hey we've got a structure fire burning in Pleasanton, would anyone like to VOLUNTEER to go!" Sorry it doesn't happen that way.
We (all firefighters) do not get paid time and one half for every single hour we are away. If it's our "regular" duty day we get "regular pay".
We (all firefighters) will either be on the fire line or covering the fire station of the impacted agency as "union worker" has correctly stated; however what is incorrect is the following statement " And many times they do not actually work the fire lines since they may not have wildland fire training."
Every firefighter in the state of California is required to have minimum wildland training. You will not find one firefighter in the State of California that does not have this training. That would be the equivalent of a Life Guard not knowing how to swim, it just wouldn't happen!
And lastly we essentially do have "no control over going", regardless this would equate to firefighters refusing to do their job, and that would NEVER happen!
a resident of Livermore
on Sep 25, 2008 at 2:37 pm
If the whiners can't appreciate the FD, they can go back to where they came from. Be gone whiners!!!
What wimps...get going!
a resident of another community
on Sep 25, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Interesting thread. I don't even care to comment on most of it as everyone already has their minds made up on their own point of view. However, two previous postings comment about running second jobs while on duty. This is absolutely the norm, off duty firemen are painters, contractors, property managers and in at least one case, airline pilots. Yeah, I heard the rumor too. SJFD and United. Check it out, it's true.
a resident of Downtown
on Sep 25, 2008 at 8:27 pm
No, it is not 'the norm' that off-duty firefighters are painters, contractors, property managers, etc...Yes, some do have other jobs....did it occur to any of you that they 'have to work more than one job' because of the pay they are not given? Hmmm, guess that was too difficult of an equation for you to figure.....same as the comment as 'volunteering' for certain calls/fires.....yeh, I don't feel like going on that fatality or that potential catastrophe....call me when you have something I'd 'like' to go on.....nope, some of you just 'don't get it' and never will....wasted time....
a resident of Del Prado
on Sep 27, 2008 at 9:22 am
tommy gavin well said spot on i live in p-town. Thanks Brother.
a resident of Livermore
on Sep 29, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Eat your hearts out whiners! hahahahahahahahahahahah...
Bail out Wall Street whiners! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...
hahahahahahahahahahahahahha tee hee hee, tee hee hee...
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Sep 30, 2008 at 7:58 am
The number of residential and commercial fires has steadily decreased over the years due to a variety of factors including improvements in construction, a greater public awareness of the risk factors leading to fires and a significant reduction in smoking nationwide.
Other parts of the country have volunteer firefighters that get hourly pay only. They do not get paid for sleeping or shopping at Safeway.
Volunteers have a long and honored tradition serving communities throughout our country. Eastside Fire & Rescue has utilized Volunteers ever since its inception in 1939. The Volunteer Program is just one of the many valuable components utilized by Eastside Fire & Rescue in providing emergency services and public education.
Eastside Fire & Rescue has over 110 Volunteers, 28 Support Staff, and 111 Professional firefighters working from 15 stations. Nine of these stations are staffed 24-hours a day. The other six stations are staffed using Volunteers.
Becoming a Volunteer firefighter or EMS responder requires commitment and dedication. The Volunteer firefighter must be willing to commit to an initial 170-hour Training Academy spaced over approximately 15 weeks. Subsequently, a weekly commitment of 3 to 6 hours is expected once you become a Volunteer firefighter. The initial training for an EMS responder is approximately 80 hours with a monthly ongoing training commitment of 6 to 9 hours.
Minimum Qualifications
Anyone who meets the following qualifications is encouraged to apply.
AGE: You must be 18 years old at the time you test to become a Volunteer.
AVAILABILITY: You are expected to be available to respond from your place of residence to your assigned station within a reasonable time. Preference is given to persons residing in the service area and those available during weekday hours. Exceptions are granted, on occasion, to those who live outside the boundaries of Eastside Fire & Rescue.
EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE: Prior medical or fire fighting experience is not necessary. You must be able to read and write the English language fluently enough to perform the duties of a firefighter and Washington State First Responder.
DRIVING RECORD: Applicants must have a valid Washington State driver's license.
a resident of Bordeaux Estates
on Sep 30, 2008 at 9:37 am
EMS/Firefighters are valued but some changes are needed.
Like so many public service jobs the pensions and benefits are out of scale. There is no justification for pension plans that cost taxpayers 30%-40% of payroll. Getting paid for shopping and sleeping should change (who believe they only sleep 3-6 of the 24hr shift?), 8 hour shifts are better for the employee and better for the public. Do you want an emergency responder waking up in the middle of the night and giving medical care?
The job descriptions need to expand to give other responsibilities during down time. Other public safety, or community service responsibilities could include regular health and welfare visits to our frail populations( I think they do some). Give support at the local med clinics (Axis). Share some of the PD's responsibility for community patrolling, parks, schools, be a supportive presence where our kids are (day and nights). I would rather see them at the park on Vineyard or bike and skate parks than Hanging out at Safeway and Starbucks.
These trained professionals are under utilized.
a resident of Country Fair
on Sep 30, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Well said David. Since they "only sleep 3-6 hours" we absolutely MUST stop allowing them to work 24 hour shifts. And no more shift trading where they can work 72 hours in a row(or even more in some departments). Put them on 8 hour days like real people, pay them only for the 8 hour that they "work" and make reasonable adjustments to their pensions. The competition for jobs is fierce, wouldn't we all like to be paid to cook, watch movies, surf the net and sleep? If it was an 8 hour day with reasonable compensation and benefits we could be confident that the responders would be awake and alert. They work 240 hours a month and get paid for 240 hours a month. Airline crews are away from home 250-350 hours per month and for that time away from home they get paid 75-85 hours.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 2, 2008 at 8:39 am
The northern California city of Vallejo is facing bankruptcy given a massive budget shortfall. "Police and firefighters account for 80% of Vallejo's budget, city officials say, due to ballooning overtime bills and lucrative union contracts that have boosted base salaries, benefits and retirement plans."
More than 10 fire employees earn more than $200,000, and they receive exceptional pensions. In Orange County, the average pay and benefit package for all categories of firefighter is $175K.
The unions have ratcheted up the pay to unconscionable levels, and the bill for massive pension benefits will be paid by our grandchildren. This is the result of unionization, shameless politicians who curry favor with unions at the expense of taxpayers and a public that is easily bullied by union activists who always play the hero card.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Oct 3, 2008 at 10:08 pm
If you look into what happened in Vallejo its appauling. The City councel was approached by a group of lawyers in the business of swearing to elected officals that they can remove city debt from their books if they are hired for a fee. They move the bulk of the city funds out of the " Genral fund " and into " project funds ". Legally there can only be one "Genral fund " but the city can create MULTIPLE " special funds ".
While they are " funding these special projects " the city councel freezes the hireing of police and firefighters. ALL CITIES have police and firfighters required minimum staffing levels. These staffing levels ensure that enough people are delivered anytime an emergency occurs.
(Could you imagine the public outcry if someone died in a car wreck, heart attack or house fire because one person showed up!!!)
So the stars are in allignment... requred minimum staffing and an inablity to hire new people. The police and fire fighters OT soars.
The press has access to the names, pay and benefits of all city employees.In dificult times it always is an easy story to sell that city employees are breaking the city's finacial back. There is a public "witch hunt" over who is to blame. While the police and firefighters continue to quietly stand post. Its PRIDE not fear that keeps these guys from addressing your ignorance.
It sounds like you did not know the Vallejo city councel rejected multiple year contracts of 0% raises knowing that if they refuse to hire more people they save 60% per person per shift by using an employee on OT. The whole time allowing the blame to be placed on the firefighters and police. I would be willing to bet the critics of this post did not know that our governor Arnie offered to sent the state auditor to assit the city of Vallejo ( no small deal ) in ballancing thier books and THEY REFUSED. It is also known that the entire Vallejo City Councel is being criminally investigated by the State Attorney General for a multitued of charges relating to this and each are personally looking at jail time. Vallejo police and firefighters are fiercly proud of the city they work for and are demoralized that their city has turned on them.
Everytime the economy tanks we revisit the same story, EVERYTIME. Blaming firefighters and cops for the way things are is like blaming pilots for the cost of an airline ticket. The reason these stories arn't run in flush economic times is because the raises given to these people hardly keep up with inflation.
If I understand you correctly, the critics...
Really believe that police and firefighters are the bads guys and the city politicians are going to save us all?
That city employees are " hanging out " at a gorcery store ?
That having a cup of coffee is keeping them from being productive ?
That the unions are responsable for the ruination of city governance and finance? ( Could you even tell me ( honestly )what a union is, why they are even used or where they came from? )
They need MORE things to do? ( Do you know that police and fire have responce time minimums, city and state MANDATED? Thats why they travel in packs and shop togeather. Do you know how many certtificates are REQUIRED to be a officer or firefighter and the training REQUIRED to keep those certs? )
That Volunteer firefighters would provide the same level of customer service and professionalism as a full time paid firefighters?
From the comments made here I refuse to believe that any of you critics have even spoken to a police officer or firefighter.
I understand that it is hard to objective in tough financial times but it is not ok to spew ignorance and frustration just because it makes you feel better. Some people might actually believe you.
Do some homework.
a resident of Bordeaux Estates
on Oct 4, 2008 at 11:34 am
EMS/Firefighters are valued but some changes are needed.
Getting paid for shopping and sleeping should change, 8 hour shifts are better for the employee and better for the public. Do you want an emergency responder waking up in the middle of the night and giving medical care?
a resident of Birdland
on Oct 4, 2008 at 8:33 pm
What is with the focus on eating and sleeping?
I don't give a crap if they cook or get their food to go. As long as they show up and perform.
The way I see it, 8 hr shifts may be easier for YOU to understand but what does that solve. They still gotta eat. It would probably cost more money, A LOT more money. Hireing employees in any business is usually the most costly part of operation.
What you imply by the comment of " waking up " is that the " night shift " stay awake all night. There is plenty of data to support that a person is capable of better critical thought and decision makeing if they have some sleep than if they are forced to remain awake all night. IF they slept through a 911 call they should be fired but the way I see it they are doing you a favor.
Where is the data or study to support your idea that firemen would work harder if ther was a night shift?
Your argument crumbles in the face of simple common sense.
a resident of Birdland
on Oct 5, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Response to "anon". As you stated firefighters respond to more than just fires, medical aids, hazardous materials, wild land fires, structure fires, auto accidents and more. When firefighters are injured they receive half there pay and minimal if any health care when they are forced to retire injured. When retired the average time a firefighter lives after retirement is 6 years. That is due to all of the hazardous material inhaled and exposed to. 6 years, so much for the golden years.
My understanding of firefighter overtime is that they sign up to work if it is available. The overtime actually saves the city money, because if they did not work the overtime the city of Pleasanton would have to hire additional people and pay benefits which would cost the city more.
To attack the pay and benefits of people who are here to help us at the cost of there own lives is wrong. I value the job that the Pleasanton firefighters do and would never endorse the attack of there jobs, pay or benefits.
I also heard our Pleasanton firefighters did respond to the world trade center, Hurricane Katrina and most recently Hurricane Ike in Texas.
Please take care of our firefighters so they can do the job most of us do not want to do.
a resident of Livermore
on Oct 6, 2008 at 2:44 pm
You people who think that firefighters don't deserve EVERYTHING they get in terms of payment or benefits are complete idiots. "Tommy Gavin" hit the nail on the head. If you worked as much as most of the firefighters work in a given month, you would expect decent compensation. 240+ hours per month is quite a lot of time to be away from your family and loved ones. Then you add on mandatory overtime and miss even more of your kids lives.
I'm guessing "anon" and others tried to become firefighters and were unable to do so because of their supidity or their obesity. Now they are just jealous and ignorant.
a resident of Birdland
on Oct 6, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Lets see. Pay and benefits a problem for a civil servant working a 24hr. shift.
Fix. hire three qualified civil servants to work 8 hr. shifts. Pay and benefits/retirement to do the work of one civil servant doing the 24 hr. shift.
What percentage of the readers out there have any logic?
As a tax payer here, I'm grateful for the services provided to my family. Thanks fire and police depts.
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text: I am a beekeeper in New Brunswick Canada and am considering seeding some Viper's bugloss (Echium Vulgare) in specific baron or rocky areas on our property. Although in some states this plant is considered very invasive it is not listed that way in New Brunswick and where we have a very short season and harsh climate I am looking for plants that will be good for bees and survive. I have heard from some sources that Viper's bugloss is a very good honey plant once established and produces excellent honey. However I have also read that there has been pyrrolizidine alkaloids found in the honey and/or pollen which apparently is bad for humans. The following site takes you to information on this http://www.fzi.uni-freiburg.de/pdf/44_1.pdf . Does anybody know whether the honey from this plant is really bad for humans or whether this is something to be concerned about? Thank you for any help.


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Learn more about the history of Walton County
Growing to meet the needs of the community
One of only two perfectly round lakes in the world
Built in 1920, completely restored, the perfect place to stay!
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Aspirin Linked to Blinding Eye Disease »
"Jan. 22, 2013 -- Regular aspirin users are more likely to develop the "wet" form of age-related macular degeneration compared to people who rarely or never take the drug, a new study shows.
Aspirin is one of the most widely used drugs in th"...
Prolonged use of corticosteroids may increase intraocular pressure in susceptible individuals, resulting in glaucoma with damage to the optic nerve, defects in visual acuity and fields of vision, and in posterior subcapsular cataract formation. Prolonged use may also suppress the host immune response and thus increase the hazard of secondary ocular infections.
Various ocular diseases and long-term use of topical corticosteroids have been known to cause corneal and scleral thinning. Use of topical corticosteroids in the presence of thin corneal or scleral tissue may lead to perforation.
Acute purulent infections of the eye may be masked or activity enhanced by the presence of corticosteroid medication.
If this product is used for 10 days or longer, intraocular pressure should be routinely monitored even though it may be difficult in children and uncooperative patients. Steroids should be used with caution in the presence of glaucoma. Intraocular pressure should be checked frequently.
The use of steroids after cataract surgery may delay healing and increase the incidence of bleb formation.
Use of ocular steroids may prolong the course and may exacerbate the severity of many viral infections of the eye (including herpes simplex). Employment of a corticosteroid medication in the treatment of patients with a history of herpes simplex requires great caution; frequent slit lamp microscopy is recommended.
The initial prescription and renewal of the medication order beyond 20 milliliters of FML® suspension should be made by a physician only after examination of the patient with the aid of magnification, such as slit lamp biomicroscopy and, where appropriate, fluorescein staining. If signs and symptoms fail to improve after two days, the patient should be re-evaluated.
As fungal infections of the cornea are particularly prone to develop coincidentally with long-term local corticosteroid applications, fungal invasion should be suspected in any persistent corneal ulceration where a corticosteroid has been used or is in use. Fungal cultures should be taken when appropriate.
If this product is used for 10 days or longer, intraocular pressure should be monitored (see WARNINGS).
Carcinogenesis, Mutagenesis, Impairment of Fertility
No studies have been conducted in animals or in humans to evaluate the possibility of these effects with fluorometholone.
Teratogenic effects - Pregnancy Category C
Fluorometholone has been shown to be embryocidal and teratogenic in rabbits when administered at low multiples of the human ocular dose. Fluorometholone was applied ocularly to rabbits daily on days 6-18 of gestation, and dose-related fetal loss and fetal abnormalities including cleft palate, deformed rib cage, anomalous limbs and neural abnormalities such as encephalocele, craniorachischisis, and spina bifida were observed. There are no adequate and well-controlled studies of fluorometholone in pregnant women, and it is not known whether fluorometholone can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman. Fluorometholone should be used during pregnancy only if the potential benefit justifies the potential risk to the fetus.
Nursing Mothers
It is not known whether topical ophthalmic administration of corticosteroids could result in sufficient systemic absorption to produce detectable quantities in human milk. Systemically-administered corticosteroids appear in human milk and could suppress growth, interfere with endogenous corticosteroid production, or cause other untoward effects. Because of the potential for serious adverse reactions in nursing infants from fluorometholone, a decision should be made whether to discontinue nursing or to discontinue the drug, taking into account the importance of the drug to the mother.
Pediatric Use
Safety and effectiveness in infants below the age of two years have not been established.
Geriatric Use
No overall differences in safety or effectiveness have been observed between elderly and younger patients.This monograph has been modified to include the generic and brand name in many instances.
Last reviewed on RxList: 10/18/2016
FML FDA Prescribing Information
Additional FML Information
Report Problems to the Food and Drug Administration
You are encouraged to report negative side effects of prescription drugs to the FDA. Visit the FDA MedWatch website or call 1-800-FDA-1088.
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text:
Vendégek száma4
Hálószobák száma1
Méret52 m²
Floor No.
- Családi / Gyerek barát
- Internet/WiFi
- Konyha
- Légkondicionálás
- Mosógép / szárítógép
- Erkély/terasz
- Törölköző
Accommodation summary
|Plaza General Vara del Rey, 28005 Madrid, Spanyolország
|Ingatlan típusa
|Ingatlan azonosító
|Acceptance rate
|Response time
|A few hours
|Calendar updated
It is situated on the first floor of an attractive building without elevator. It is exterior, very bright, with 5 windows and balconies overlooking the Plaza General Vara del Rey.
This lovely 45sqm apartment is totally refurbished and has a separate bedroom with a comfy double bed (1.35 x 1.90) where you are going to have very relaxing nights. The bathroom offers everything you need for personal care.
The living room has a comfortable sofa bed (1.50 x1.90), huge fitted bookshelves, a TV, a dining area with table and 6 chairs and a lovely black wall of slate, like a chalkboard, to draw or write whatever you want.
There is closet space and the kitchen is fully equipped with microwave, oven, fridge, crockery and cutlery, all the things you need to prepare your meals, making your stay easier and perfect such as dishwasher and washing machine.
There is air-conditioning and heating. It has WiFi internet, TV, DVD, CD player, radio, washing machine, bed linen, towels, hair dryers, iron, etc.. In short: everything you need to make you feel at home and have a great time you'll find in this property.
In this charming lovely apartment the wooden beams and rustic window shutters come together with contemporary furniture and sweet decor details, giving it a great sense of old-meets-new and warm and cozy environment to your holidays.
The apartment is just four minutes from the metro La Latina, and 10 minutes from the Plaza Mayor, walking. On Sundays, just outside the building, the legendary open-air market takes place. There is much hustle and bustle but really, this is an experience you can't miss.
If you need anything, please ask. Enjoy your stay!
HázirendRefundable security deposit required at check-in: 150€
Check-in and check-out are flexible and negotiable depending on the occupancy of the apartment.
There are no house rules, just the common sense rule. I am a really friendly person who is up for everything, there should be no problems.
|Ár >2 vendégre
|16 € /fő/éj extra
|Maximális tartózkodás
|1 hónap
|Érkezés legkorábbi időpontja
|Check-in before
|Távozás legkésőbbi időpontja
|Lemondási feltétel
Az ingatlan értékelései
Lovely, well designed apartment with personal touch in very friendly neighbourhood. Restaurants, terrasses, bars, shops, underground. Strongly recommended.
It was a lucky chance to find this tasteful, cosy, well equipped and clean appartment in the centre of Madrid. Situated in a quiet street (relaxing sleep) which is on the other hand very close to all sorts of restaurants, bars, points of interest and metro station.
Thanks to Enrique for all the useful information and tips! This is definitely the place to stay when you come to Madrid.
My wife and I spent 4 days in Enrique's nice apartment. Cosy and clean and at walking distance to everything. Met our expectations completely. Enrique also very helpful.
Erik, Denmark
Beautifully decorated cozy apartment, nicely situated on a square in the La Latina neighborhood. Terrace with French doors opening onto the square. Ideal for 2 perons. Apartment is near several attractions. Features a living and dining area, fully equipped kitchen, bedroom (with a good bed) and a fine bathroom. One focus: equipment of cooking pans - including a frying pan - can be enlarged. Host Enrique is reliable and very helpful. He gave us lots of information, including travel information from the airport to the apartment. On a next visit to Madrid we would certainly book this apartment again!
January 2015 we spend five days in Enriques apartment. It is tastefully decorated and very comfortable. It is located in the quiet and beautiful old quater Latina, with a view on a small square. A station of the underground is within walking distance. Enrique is friendly and helpful. It is a pity we could not stay any longer.
Best of best house.
The host, Enrique is very kind.
And his house very comfortable and has everything.
so, while we stay there, always I was satisfied.
If you want to find clean, comfortable, and good location house in madrid,
I recommend Enrique's house.
In my opinion, Enrique is no.1 host in madrid.
Thank you Mr.Enrique giving us nice experience.
Wow, this is the best kept secret of Madrid. It is a great apartment, not very big, but just the right size, cozy and very stylish. We enjoyed the neighborhood of La Latina, an authentic, non-touristic area where the locals live. At walking distance you'll find lots of small pubs, cafes and restaurants.
Unless you like crowded areas with busloads of tourists, Enrique and his apartment are the best choice for a great stay in Madrid. We loved it!
Enrique was very helpful and considerate host. Gave us plenty of information, tried to be help of during our stay. Apartment was cosy and nice as it's shown in the picture. Nice area, close to metro and plaza mayor.
To me the best thing in the Madrid was this apartment actually. If I visit Madrid again, I'll definitely choose this place again. Highly recommended!
Yes, our stay in Madrid in Enrique's apartment was delightful, nice area, close to everything, very charismatic and homely apartment.
Enrique is a very nice host, he makes everything very easy. We will come back.
love from Juana and Ren
We had a very nice stay in Madrid as and the appartment contributed to that. A great location, especially on sundays with the market right in front of the appartment. It was clean, comfortable and cosy. Also Enrique was a great host, very flexible and well prepared. He send us all the nessecary information in advance.
- Minőségbiztosított szállás
- Minden házigazda hitelesítésre került telefonon keresztül
- Biztonságos fizetés SSL titkosításon keresztül


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I'd take a chance with Bargniani at this point, adding another shooter, and guy who dosen't need to be the "guy" on offense.. If Bargniani avg's 15 or 16 pts a game, he won't be critisized as much as Stat will, and can just fit in to our team, as opposed to Stat having to here he dosen't fit if he dosen't avg 20 a game with 10rebounds..
I dont love either player, but I think Bargniani would fit better..
Also, if we traded for Bargniani, its not like we coulden't add defense in this yrs draft, as theres plenty of tough defenders in this yrs class.
bargs isn't a good shooter though, check his stats. stat is a far superior player, not even close.
22 per vs. 11. not even close.
amare averaged 14 points and 5 rebounds in like 24 minutes on high efficiency. only 1.7 turnovers as well.
once again, the ONLY reason to even discuss the trade is stat's inability to stay healthy. bargs is a worse player period. even worse rebounder and defender. the idea of him being on the knicks make me want to puke.
Lots of talk on this thread about big changes to the team, but I just don't see many significant changes coming. Nor should they be. I know they lost to IND in a disappointing way, but this was still a 50 win team despite a ton of injuries and most of the team being together for the first time. You need to have some continuity and there are some reasons to like this teams' future.
No one is trading for amare's contract. The only time that may come into play is when he hits his last season. Besides, I'm not so sure he's done being a factor for this team. Having a full offseason to be with the team and find a role could make a big difference.
All Hail The New York Giants!!
in case yall forgot how great amare played this past season...
he's still one of the most talented big men in the league. it's amazing how he added a competent post game in a couple weeks training with hakeem. if only he didn't have an incompetent coach for most of his career that doesn't believe in post up basketball. his touch around the rim is outstanding.


text:
Los Angeles unofficially kicks off the auto show season each November, and last year we got more than our fair share of compact SUVs, with Mazda's MX-5, Ford's Escape, and Honda's CR-V—all using the LA Convention Center as a supercharged showcase for their global debuts.
This year, things seem to be switching gears a bit. While Toyota presented its all-new RAV4, the serious buzz of the day centered on the Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG Black Series—with a whopping 622hp. (Yep, no joke!)
The new Jaguar XFR-S is no slouch either. This blue beauty is all about sexy curves and speeds up to 60 mph in just 4.4 seconds.
And, those aren't the only automakers promoting global unveils. Acura's new model, the RLX, is on the floor, as is Volkswagen's iconic Beetle Convertible. The public gets its first looks starting Friday…if you're not in LA, no worries, we'll have more details coming soon.
Editor's note: We love Auto Shows—especially this one. And you can bet that we'll be on the edge of our seats until this thing ends, waiting in eager anticipation for more first glimpses of all the tempting new offerings. I know, we're nerds. (We can't help it, we're just geared that way.) Stay tuned for more candid updates from the LA Auto Show.
In the meantime, text "HOLIDAY" to 36898 to check out the latest offers from Advance Auto Parts. Up to 5 messages per month; message & data rates may apply. —JK