text:
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Re: st: "covariates in dataset 2 do not match covariates in dataset1"
Michelle L Stransky <firstname.lastname@example.com>
email@example.com, Maarten buis <firstname.lastname@example.com>
Re: st: "covariates in dataset 2 do not match covariates in dataset1"
Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:37:07 -0400
Yes, I do have a _mj and _mi. Could these be getting 'lost' between regression commands?
* Maarten buis <firstname.lastname@example.com> [Tue 16 Mar 2010 04:05:22 AM EDT]:
--- On Mon, 15/3/10, Michelle L Stransky wrote:
I'm working with a multiply imputed dataset (so I have 5
poverty variables to account for missing values). I
used the -reshape long- command to make each imputed
variable it's own case (so now, for each case, I have it
listed 5 times each with 1 imputation of income).
I'm running a series of regressions, trying to fine tune
the predictor variables. The first regression runs
fine but subsequent regressions (whether I use my .do file
or copy & paste them into the command window) will not
calculate. I receive an error message stating that
"covariates in dataset 2 do not match covariates in
I checked the file and everything seemed fine; the only
things that don't exactly match across imputations of the
dataset are the poverty values. In fact, I've used
this exact procedure on 2 other (very similar) datasets with
no problems. It's only been in the last month that I
receive this message.
What doesn't make sense to me is that the first regression
command runs perfectly fine but subsequent commands do not
(they're all in exactly the same form-- mim: svy: logistic
dv iv1 iv2 iv3). And if I close Stata and then open it
and run the second regression it works. I've attempted
to run this analysis on Stata9 Intercooled and Stata11
SE. It doesn't seem to matter; I receive the same
Do you have any recommendations or suggestions for me as to
why this happens and/or how to fix it?
-mim- is looking for a variable _mj to identify the different
datasets and _mi to identify the observations. Do these exist
in your dataset?
-- Maarten
Maarten L. Buis
Institut fuer Soziologie
Universitaet Tuebingen
Wilhelmstrasse 36
72074 Tuebingen
* For searches and help try:
* http://www.stata.com/help.cgi?search
* http://www.stata.com/support/statalist/faq
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* For searches and help try:
* http://www.stata.com/help.cgi?search
* http://www.stata.com/support/statalist/faq
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text:
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subset: commoncrawl


text:
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RE : RE : st: Super-Columns with Esttab
WEBER Sylvain <email@example.com>
"email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.com>
RE : RE : st: Super-Columns with Esttab
Thu, 29 Nov 2012 05:57:40 +0000
Hi Rebecca,
That's very nice from you to try to solve this issue.
You are right: -prefix()-, -suffix()-, and -span- will not work here.
I have tried something with -prehead()- and -posthead()- instead. The following code gives a table quite close to what we are looking for:
esttab dom1 dom2 for1 for2 using test.rtf, append nomtitles nonumber posthead("{\trowd\trgaph108\trleft-108\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx1548\clmgf\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx3564\clmrg\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx5580\clmgf\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx7596\clmrg\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx9612\pard\intbl\ql{}\cell\pard\intbl\qc{Domestic}\cell\pard\intbl\qc{}\cell\pard\intbl\qc{Foreign}\cell\pard\intbl\qc{}\cell\row}")
Ideally, we would want to use -prehead()- instead of -posthead()- and remove the -nonumber- option so as to have the columns numbered below the super-columns "Domestic" and "Foreign". However, that corrupts the rtf file... (some lines of code are missing at the beginning of the file.)
Moreover, as I don't really know anything about rtf codes, I don't know if it's easy to adapt the code in -posthead()- when the number of columns are changing. This solution might be hard to generalize...
Anyway, I think we are in the right direction!
De : email@example.com [email@example.com] de la part de Rebecca Pope [email@example.com]
Date d'envoi : mardi 27 novembre 2012 20:42
À : firstname.lastname@example.com
Objet : Re: RE : st: Super-Columns with Esttab
Sorry, there were two typos in that RTF code...
Here it is corrected:
{}\cell \pard\intbl\qc {Domestic}\cell \pard\intbl\qc {}\cell
\pard\intbl\qc {Foreign}\cell \pard\intbl\qc {}\cell\row}
__o __o
_`\ <,_ _`\ <,_
(_)/ (_) (_)/ (_)
On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Rebecca Pope <firstname.lastname@example.com> wrote:
> Hi Sylvain,
> I don't think -prefix()-, -suffix()-, and -span- are your solution
> unfortunately. As I'm looking at it, it looks like anything you place
> in -prefix()- or -suffix()- will wind up in the cell contents rather
> than as a definition of the cell.
> \clmgf & \clmrg (yes, these are correct) have to go in the table
> definition at the begining of the row rather than cell by cell. I'm
> probably explaining this poorly, but I'm _guessing_ you tried
> something like:
> esttab dom1 dom2 for1 for2 using test.rtf, nomtitles
> mgroups("Domestic" "Foreign", prefix("\clmgf") suffix("\clmrg") span
> pattern(1 0 1 0))
> which generates the following RTF code for the "supercolumns":
> <snip>
> {\trowd\trgaph108\trleft-108\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx1548\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx3564\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx5580\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx7596\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx9612\pard\intbl\ql
> {}\cell \pard\intbl\qc {\clmgfDomestic\clmrg}\cell \pard\intbl\qc
> {\clmgfForeign\clmrg}\cell\row}
> <snip>
> What you need instead is:
> {\trowd\trgaph108\trleft-108\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx1548\clmgf\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx3564\clmrg\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\clmgr\cellx5580\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\cellx7596\clbrdrt\brdrw10\brdrs\clmgr\cellx9612\pard\intbl\ql
> {}\cell \pard\intbl\qc {Domestic}\cell \pard\intbl\qc {}\cell
> \pard\intbl\qc {Foreign}\cell \pard\intbl\qc {}\cell\row}
> The subtle difference in all that mess is that the RTF merge control
> words go at the beginning of the cell definitions. So, reading left to
> right, we see the first cell defined starting with \clbrdrt & ending
> with \cellx1548. To indicate that we want to start merging with the
> 2nd cell, we need to place \clmgf immediately after that for the
> beginning of the 2nd cell's definition. It ends with \cellx3564.
> Immediately after that, we tell it to merge the 3rd cell with the 2nd.
> Likewise 4th & 5th.
> Of course, none of what I'm telling you helps you write this using
> -esttab-. I'm not sure how you would get it to use the cell
> definitions at the beginning of the row. Perhaps something with the
> styles definition? I need to look closer at -estout- and I don't have
> time right now, but I'd be happy to try to work through this with you.
> Sorry for the incomplete answer.
> Best,
> Rebecca
> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 6:36 PM, WEBER Sylvain <email@example.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Metoka wants to export tables with super-columns to rtf using -esttab-. The solution proposed by Lance -mgroups("Domestic" "Foreign", pattern(1 0 1 0)- is the best I can think of. However, the result is not absolutely perfect.
>> Here is a restatement of the problem, using the example provided by Ryan Kessler last Monday in a parallel discussion about exporting tables with super-columns to tex (http://www.stata.com/statalist/archive/2012-11/msg00745.html):
>> sysuse auto, clear
>> eststo clear
>> eststo dom1: reg mpg weight if !foreign
>> eststo dom2: reg mpg weight trunk if !foreign
>> eststo for1: reg mpg weight if foreign
>> eststo for2: reg mpg weight trunk if foreign
>> esttab dom1 dom2 for1 for2 using test.tex, booktabs nomtitles mgroups("Domestic" "Foreign", pattern(1 0 1 0) prefix(\multicolumn{@span}{c}{) suffix(}) span erepeat(\cmidrule(lr){@span}))
>> This creates a perfect table for latex. But if one exports the same table to rtf (using Lance's solution):
>> esttab dom1 dom2 for1 for2 using test.rtf, nomtitles mgroups("Domestic" "Foreign", pattern(1 0 1 0))
>> There will not be any super column in the table. "Domestic" and "Foreign" will simply appear inside the 2nd and 4th column of the table. One therefore has to merge the cells "manually" inside the rtf file afterwards. That's not a really big deal, but it would be nice to have a solution to automate the entire process of creating rtf tables.
>> I feel that a solution lies in using the -span-, -prefix()-, and -suffix()- label suboptions of -esttab- in combination with rtf control words (\clmgf and \clmrg can apparently be used to merge cells, see: http://www.biblioscape.com/rtf15_spec.htm), but I couldn't reach a solution. All my trials ended in a corrupt rtf files.
>> Thanks for your help.
>> Sylvain
>> Sylvain Weber
>> University of Neuchâtel, Institute of Economic Research (irene)
>> Pierre-à-Mazel 7, 2000 Neuchâtel, Switzerland
>> +41.32.718.14.42
>> firstname.lastname@example.com
>> http://sites.google.com/site/swwebpage/
>> ________________________________________
>> De : email@example.com [firstname.lastname@example.com] de la part de Lance Erickson [email@example.com]
>> Date d'envoi : lundi 19 novembre 2012 10:07
>> À : firstname.lastname@example.com
>> Objet : RE: st: Super-Columns with Esttab
>> The -esttab- command is (what I think they call) a wrapper for -estout- (both commands on SSC by Ben Jann) so the options available for -estout- will work. There is a -mgroups- option that will do what you want if I am understanding your issue correctly.
>> If you have a 4-column matrix the option would be something like...
>> -mgroups("Domestic" "International", pattern(1 0 1 0)-
>> That would put the first super-column label (domestic) over the first two columns and the second super-column label (international) over the third and fourth columns.
>> Lance
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: email@example.com [mailto:email@example.com] On Behalf Of "Rita Frühwald"
>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:06 AM
>> To: email@example.com
>> Subject: Re: st: Super-Columns with Esttab
>> Hi,
>> Thank you for your fast reply, but unfortunately, this solution did not solve my problem. I guess that the problem is that I am trying to add super-columns in a matrix using esttab. To create the several columns of my matrix, I use the stored columns in e() that I can get after I ran the several t-test with estpost. I am not running a regression.
>> The reason why I want to have these supercolumns is that it want to show that the columns N_1 and mu_1 both belong to "Domestic" and that the columns N_2 and mu_2 belong to "Foreign".
>> Isn't there a command in esttab that allows me to add super-columns above my matrix so that I can demonstrate that several columns belong together?
>> Best
>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>>> Datum: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:02:50 -0500
>>> Von: Ryan Kessler <firstname.lastname@example.com>
>>> An: email@example.com
>>> Betreff: Re: st: Super-Columns with Esttab
>>> You could try using something like this:
>>> sysuse auto
>>> eststo clear
>>> eststo: reg price foreign
>>> eststo: reg mpg foreign
>>> eststo: reg trunk foreign
>>> esttab, varlabels(foreign "Difference" _cons Domestic) se
>>> Ryan Kessler
>>> On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 2:15 PM, <email@example.com> wrote:
>>> > Dear members,
>>> >
>>> > this is my first post, so I hope it works. I am using estpost and
>>> > esttab
>>> to export results from two-sample t-tests in a rtf-file, so that I can
>>> use the output in a word file. I am a stata beginner and also not very
>>> familiar with the estout package.
>>> > I tried to add super-columns above the names of my columns, but I
>>> couldn't figure out how to do it. I hope someone can help me.
>>> >
>>> > So far, my code looks like this:
>>> >
>>> > sysuse auto
>>> > estpost ttest price mpg trunk, by(foreign) esttab using
>>> > "myFileInRtfFormat.rtf", cells("N_1 mu_1 N_2 mu_2 b(star)
>>> se") ///
>>> > noobs nonumber nomtitle modelwidth(8 8 7 8 8 8) replace
>>> >
>>> > I want to add the super-column "Domestic" above the columnnames N_1
>>> > and
>>> mu_1 (the super-column name "Domestic" should only be shown once), and
>>> I want to add the super-column "Foreign" above the columnnames N_2 and
>>> mu_2 (also just once).
>>> >
>>> > I tried to add the super-columns with the following code:
>>> > equations(1) unstack eqlabels(Domestic Foreign) But only "Domestic"
>>> > is added then.
>>> >
>>> > How can I add Domestic and Foreign above the column names at the
>>> specific positions?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Thank you very much for your help!
>>> >
>>> > Metoka
>>> > *
>>> > * For searches and help try:
>>> > * http://www.stata.com/help.cgi?search
>>> > * http://www.stata.com/support/faqs/resources/statalist-faq/
>>> > * http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/stata/
>>> *
>>> * For searches and help try:
>>> * http://www.stata.com/help.cgi?search
>>> * http://www.stata.com/support/faqs/resources/statalist-faq/
>>> * http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/stata/
>> *
>> * For searches and help try:
>> * http://www.stata.com/help.cgi?search
>> * http://www.stata.com/support/faqs/resources/statalist-faq/
>> * http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/stata/
>> *
>> * For searches and help try:
>> * http://www.stata.com/help.cgi?search
>> * http://www.stata.com/support/faqs/resources/statalist-faq/
>> * http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/stata/
>> *
>> * For searches and help try:
>> * http://www.stata.com/help.cgi?search
>> * http://www.stata.com/support/faqs/resources/statalist-faq/
>> * http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/stata/
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text:
The 2009 Flying Dutch return eight letterwinners from the 2008 squad led by three-time All-MIAA player Samantha Stille, a senior from Holland, Mich. (Holland HS). She is the only senior on coach Karen Page's squad. The pre-season roster includes three freshmen, three sophomores, four seniors and a senior.
Other returning letterwinners are sophomore Katherine Garcia, a sophomore from Battle Creek, Mich. (Battle Creek Central HS); Lucy Himes, a junior from Grand Blanc, Mich. (L.M. Powers Catholic HS); Marissa Kooyers, a junior from Holland, Mich. (Holland Christian HS); Elizabeth Olson, a junior from Ankeny, Iowa (Ankeny HS); Kathryn Sawyer, a sophomore from Batavia, Ill. (Batavia HS); Nicole Spagnuolo, a sophomore from Okemos, Mich. (Okemos HS); and Danielle Werley, a junior from Holland, Mich. (Holland HS).
Freshman prospects include Kristen Marsh of Traverse City, Mich. (Traverse City St. Francis HS), Mia Savagian of Bloomfield Hills, Mich. (Lahser HS), and Audrey Schultz of Grand Haven, Mich. (Grand Haven HS).
Coach Page begins her 12th season at the helm of the women's tennis program. Her teams have posted an 11-year dual match record of 148-88 and have been 61-21 in MIAA matches. The 2008 Flying Dutch had their best dual match record in nine seasons and finished third in the Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association for the second straight year.
The 2008 Flying Dutch were presented the Team GPA Award for outstanding academic performance by the Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association (MIAA) and were honored by the Intercollegiate Tennis Association (ITA) as scholar athletes.


text:
Tennis legend Andre Agassi greeted fans in Christchurch who turned out to meet him at a special book signing event.
Agassi, 42, is in the country as part of a book tour, promoting his autobiography: Open.
Dozens of fans, both young and old, queued outside the Paper Plus store at the Eastgate Mall to get their books signed.
One fan turned up with something slightly different - a copy of Agassi's book; the Russian edition.
Agassi smiled and said it was the first he had seen his autobiography in Russian.
Agassi later attended a dinner at the Addington Raceway & Events Centre.
Today he is in Auckland for a book signing at the Paper Plus store in Newmarket, from 11 to 11.45am.
Tonight he will be the keynote speaker at a gala dinner at the Langham Hotel, at 6pm.
- NZ Herald


text:
Once a year, tens of thousands of people gather in Nevada's Black Rock Desert (also known as "the playa") to create Black Rock City, a temporary metropolis dedicated to community, art, self-expression, and self-reliance. They depart one week later, having left no trace whatsoever.
Even considering going to Burning Man for the first time can be daunting. And while it's true that Burning Man is not for the faint of heart, with some research, preparation, and planning, an experience — and opportunity — beyond your wildest dreams awaits you. In Black Rock City, you're guaranteed not to be the weirdest kid in the classroom. And you'll become a part of the growing community of Burners who are active year-round, around the world, ensuring that the fire of Burning Man culture never goes out.
What's the best way to learn about Burning Man? First, sign up for the Jackrabbit Speaks email newsletter to receive periodic updates and important information about the event throughout the year. Second, take a tour of this website to get a better idea of what to expect and how to get involved. We suggest you follow the links below to the Survival Guide and then branch out to see how you might contribute to a theme camp, art project, build your own sturdy shade structure, turn your car into a giant spider, or paint your body to look like … well, that's up to you. You can participate as little or as much as you want, but it is said that you really must participate to truly enjoy the experience. Finally, find the Burning Man Regional Contact nearest you, and join in the community.
What is Burning Man?
Scroll through our history to see how Burning Man formed and evolved over the years.
The 10 Principles
The 10 core guiding concepts of Burning Man.
Event FAQ
Important answers to frequently asked questions.
The Burning Man Experience
Event Survival Guide
Mandatory reading for all Burning Man participants, this guide tells you everything you need to know about how to survive and enjoy the event. Read up and be prepared.
Ways to Participate
Burning Man is the sum total of the activities of its participants, and the ways to participate are as unlimited as one's imagination.
Art and Performance
Burning Man is a community centered around the creation and appreciation of art in all its forms. Learn how you can create art for the playa, and what installations you can expect to see this year. If you're not going to make art, then be art!
Theme Camps and Villages
Everything you need to know to bring your theme camp to the event, including what a theme camp is.
Leaving No Trace
Q: Where are the trash cans at Burning Man?
A: There aren't any. Learn more about our Leave No Trace ethic.
Greening Your Burn
Learn how to reduce your environmental impact as you participate in Burning Man … and beyond.
Getting There and Back
Finding your way to, around, and out of Black Rock City.
Connect with Spark!
Working on a project and looking for help? Got skills and resources and want to work on a project? Connect through Spark, our online system facilitating creative collaborations in our community.
Also be sure to check out the Afterburn Report, our annual post-event accounting of how the event is produced, and what happens along the way.


text: Power window (driver's door) stopped working. Pushing the button caused the lights to dim, so I purchased a new motor from CarQuest. In the midst of replacing the motor, the window worked again. I put Humpty Dumpty back together without replacing the motor (which includes removing the whole regulator system and is a PITA). Naturally the window operation failed again later, but is itermittent, and I can't identify a unique circumstance that isolates the problem. I know it won't fix itself, but I'm at a loss as to what is the problem. Does anyone have any advice on how to diagnose the problem before replacing the motor in hopes that solves the problem? The other three windows work fine from both the drivers' door and the individual door buttons. It seems to be a driver's door issue for the driver door window only. Kevin


text:
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Appalachian Power is reporting that power should be restored by tonight (Friday) to customers in Carroll, Grayson, Smyth, Washington and Wythe counties.
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text:
According to my calculations and the fact that I had nurse bees cutting open the ends of some of the queen cells yesterday, my queen should have started emerging today.
My hive has a small 3/16 side vent with screen in it. This is due to the box has slots for a devider and we notched through the handle grooves when I cut the slots. So I screened it over and they can close it or not as they like.
Well this morning it was in the mid 50s and the bees were very inactive for most the morning. As temps moved into the 70s the drones were out in force and all swarming in the air around the small slot. Some were entering the hive thru the bottom entrance and I didn't see any being driven off by workers, but man, they were is swarm in the air around that vent (one on the down wind side of the hive). None bunched around any opening, just there.
Maybe love in the air (and maybe I might get a mated queen before winter).
I am new at this but sure seemed like something in that section of the hive had them attracted. Does anyone know if the virgin queens emit a lure to make drones chase them.


text:
200 PLO Six Max
Don demonstrates great foundational play at the 200 limit.
Developing A Tight Image
Don discusses the methods and merits of developing a tight image at 50nl.
SoCalQuest 100NL
Don four tables $100 No-Limit and discusses important aspects to beating today's SSNL games.
Developing A Loose Image At SSNL (1)
Don walks us through the process of developing a loose image in SSNL games, along with methods to pr...
Handreading (Beating the Microstakes Series)
Beating the Microstakes: An Introduction to Handreading by SoCalQuest Don goes through hi...
SoCalQuest on Bankroll Management
Don discusses the importance of proper bankroll management while two tabling 10nl.
Climbing The Ladder 100NL
Don takes the first step up to 100NL.
SSNL HU VS Regular
Don plays a 200NL HU regular on two tables.
Member Review 100nl (1)
Don reviews WildBeast's play at 100nl on Party Poker.
Making A Thin Value Bet
Don highlights the conditions and typical thought processes utilized when evaluating a potentially t...


text:
Registration Time
It's that time in the quarter again when students frantically search for classes that they either have to take or want to take for the next quarter. It's probably one of the most stressful two days of week 7, I know it is for me. Thank goodness this can all be done online, no waiting in long lines to register for classes!
Every quarter students receive their class audit sheets for the quarter. An audit sheet is a very helpful but sometimes daunting sheet that shows what classes you've taken, what classes you are currently taking, and required classes you will need to take in order to graduate. All courses are listed along with your grade and the course number. If it weren't for these sheets I'd probably be taking a lot of random classes that don't pertain to my major, which is fine if I wanted to stay at RIT for 3 extra quarters. Thank goodness for these sheets because it comes in handy for registration day which for level threes are today! Here the RIT registration is done by grade level, older students register first and it goes down from there. It can be very very VERY frustrating sometimes because the older students get first dibbs on classes that you want to take to get you ahead or fun classes that are really popular such as Wines of the World and Foods of the World classes (I believe that was the first class all my friends were complaining was full already). But everything always works out in the end. If you don't get into a class that is required for your major, there is a section of the registration site called Unmet Needs, that will help you get into the class that you need.
As of now I am organizing all my classes I need to take for my major along with classes I need for my concentration (Environmental Studies), and my intended minor (business marketing). Also I'm hoping to take a few fun classes such as ceramics wheel throwing or piyo (mix of palates and yoga which gets full fast) or even quilt making…probably not so much quilt making…
The major downside to registering tomorrow morning that this all starts at 6am! Ah! Wish me luck!
Comments (3)
CarolynHow'd registration go for you? I got into all my classes and I didn't even register until 7:30!
Blenda LuongYes, I got into all my classes! I'm glad you got in yours too! Good start for next quarter. :)
Michelle Bishop-UtanoI remember when I was in college we had to register by phone. Each course had a 9 digit code that you had to punch in - and registration began at 6 am, so I had to make sure I was awake enough to punch in the right code!


text:
By Rob Kelly
Arsène Wenger says Arsenal's creative midfield trio will always create chances for Theo Walcott to score - no matter where he plays.
The England international has expressed his desire to play as a central striker, and strengthened his case with a goal in Saturday's north London derby win against Tottenham
Wenger says that while Walcott offers a different option when he plays through the middle, he should never find goalscoring opportunities hard to come by.
"He can play in both positions [out wide or up front]," the manager said. "You also have situations where the goalkeeper kicks the ball long and you need Olivier Giroud to deflect the ball or win the ball with his chest, which Theo would not be capable of doing.
"He is a different type of player, he can play up front and he can also play up front with Giroud. He has found a good mixture of positional play on the wing now, and he is difficult to stop.
"It is always good when you can play everywhere. He finished as a centre forward [against Tottenham] and scored a goal, but when you play with the midfield we have - Wilshere, Cazorla, Arteta - they will find you in any position if you move well."Copyright 2017 The Arsenal Football Club plc. Permission to use quotations from this article is granted subject to appropriate credit being given to www.arsenal.com as the source


text: I put ear rings , hair ties, brush, makeup in the girls stocking along with candy, gift cards , deck of cards, toothbrushes, if i need a filler a cute pair of socks or two , a new ornament for the next year, I don't normally do a lot of candy so will put in Beef jerky, granola bars, fruit snacks,sometimes little bags of cookies. Boys hot wheel cars maybe a game . i just look for little items. for me it isn't real hard.


text:
Add a chart or graph to a spreadsheet
You can make charts and graphs from your spreadsheet data in Google Sheets. You can choose from many chart types.
- Open a spreadsheet in Google Sheets.
- Select the cells with data you want to include in your chart. Note: To make labels on your chart, add a header row or column to your data.
- Click Insert Chart.
- In the "Recommendations" tab, choose a chart style. For more options, click Chart types.
- To edit your chart, click Customization.
- To create the chart, click Insert.
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forum: Chicken
#11 Tue 21 Oct 08 7:20am
- Member
- Member since Sun 06 Jan 08
Re: New to keeping chickens in the garden - help needed
When it gets dark they will find their own way back to the coop but you MUST lock them in to keep them safe from predators. Our neighbours love looking after our 3 "girls" when we go away, we tell them to keep any eggs they lay, which is usually 21 eggs a week!
They do make a mess of the garden, so be prepared to get lots of chicken wire and fence off anything you don't want dug up and flung across your yard. A decent sized coop is ok for them to be left in for a weekend, provided you pop in extra containers with water and food. Good luck! It's all trial and error.
#12 Sat 15 Nov 08 7:29pm
Re: New to keeping chickens in the garden - help needed
Anyone in Oz had any thing to do with a Sydney-based business that sells two hens, a 1.8m long x 90cm high coop on wheels that is fox proof? (But is it possum proof)
They also "rent" out as above with six week's worth of food in a "try before you buy" system?
Had hens when a kid. Have wanted them (again) for years.
Just wanted any feedback before I commit.
Note: I haven't mentioned the firm, but if you've dealt with them you'll know which one I'm talking about.
#13 Sun 16 Nov 08 4:46pm
- Member Occupation Retired
- From New England Highlands, NSW, OZ
- Member since Sun 26 Oct 08
Re: New to keeping chickens in the garden - help needed
Hi All,
I recently attended a seminar in relation to building Quoll proof chicken coops. A quoll is a cat-like carnivorous marsupial which is endangered in Australia.
GLENRAC has secured a threatened species grant from the World Wildlife Fund for Nature to assist Glen Innes community members to construct quoll-proof chicken houses and runs.
I figured, if it can keep a quoll out of the chicken house then it will keep feral cats, dogs, foxes, snakes, etc out too. It has become quite a major construction as I needed to get fairly strong wire to cover the nesting box & sleeping area. I ended up using 50 x 12 x 2.5 galvanised mesh. The reason for this is because quolls can eat through normal chicken wire. Placing corrugated iron on the floor area & concreting on this will provide a further safety layer.
During the day they will free range but will be put into the shed at night. I have a 2m x 2m floor area & 8 nesting boxes. I will be starting out with 8 chickens but may increase this number at a later date.
It just shows what we have to do to protect our chickens up here & to live with the environment. Native animals were here long before man ever walked on Earth & I like to do my bit trying to make sure they will be here long after I have gone.
#14 Mon 24 Nov 08 7:42am
- Forum champ Occupation Volunteer
- From Oregon Coast USA
- Member since Sat 22 Nov 08
Re: New to keeping chickens in the garden - help needed
My coop has a run that is fully enclosed on the sides and top with chicken wire. The door from the coop to the run is always open, but they go into the coop at night. If I am not home, they have the run, If I'm home, the yard is theirs! This way they can get outside in the run whenever they want, but if they're in the yard I'm there to watch for coyotes and raccoons. If they're in the yard I always leave the big door to the coop open so if the maurading pack of labradors comes through, they can get up to their roosts. Then they can always get in there to lay, too. I like my system, it works really well, and I think it's a good balance of happy and safe for my ladies. Oh, I forgot to mention, I have a little feed and water carousel that's good for quite awhile if I'm gone.
PS. My chickens (there's 10) have a cat friend. She's orange striped. She hangs out in the run with them. They really like each other, it's funny. She's feral. I've never gotten near her. I'm not a chicken...
#15 Tue 02 Dec 08 9:21am
Sweet teeth
- Member
- Member since Mon 24 Nov 08
Re: New to keeping chickens in the garden - help needed
All I would add is what ever you do avoid buying Guinea Fowl. Our neighbour has just bought a pair and you would not believe the level of noise they can churn out. Astonishingly dim looking birds (but quite pretty with their long necks and tiny heads) but lungs like a buffalo!
Apparently these two are destined for the pot at Christmas. Can't say I'm unhappy about that!
#16 Sat 10 Jan 09 8:03am
- Forum super champ Occupation Mother of 2 working more than full time
- From Wallerawang, Oz
- Member since Wed 29 Jun 05
Re: New to keeping chickens in the garden - help needed
I think I saw them on Totally Wild a few years ago... they are supposed to be very good.. I havent heard anything bad about them yet & I have had my aerial up for 2+ years now.
#17 Sat 10 Jan 09 8:54am
Re: New to keeping chickens in the garden - help needed
Thanks Frizz. They've had a huge amount of publicity recently.
Checked out website. Guy runs it as a "hobby" and has a "day job". Can't keep up with orders. Only works the chook business Thurs-Sat. Think he needs to take on staff to keep up with demand.
Grew up with chooks. Always my job (when younger than your kids) to collect still warm eggs each morning for breakfast.Delicious.
Have huge area for them to "range".Only concern is how, when they are free ranging", Bronte (small 8yr old dog) will react.
Still, it's a six week trial basis, initially.
Will ring him.
Thanks again
#18 Sat 10 Jan 09 2:52pm
- Member
- From Townsville, Australia
- Member since Mon 29 Dec 08
Re: New to keeping chickens in the garden - help needed
We have 3 chooks and a duck. Holidays are not so much an issue as we have provided our neighbours with free free range eggs throughout the year, and find they are only too happy to oblige when it comes to feeding them while we are away, as payment for the contributions year round.
#19 Sat 10 Jan 09 3:42pm
Re: New to keeping chickens in the garden - help needed
Hi Craig, ("chooks" you must be another Aussie )do the chooks and the duck live together? How big is your coup?
Fell in love with duck eggs while in UK recently. Impossible to get down here and don't have time or eco-kms to drive to where I could get them.
Have already approached neighbours (promised no roosters- they don't lay eggs-not allowed in the 'burbs and don't particularly want to have chicks).
They (neighbours) have given me their blessing with the promise of excess eggs throughout the year *and* in return for feeding and watering the birds, they get to take all eggs while I'm away.
Last edited by Maree (Sat 10 Jan 09 3:47pm)
#20 Sun 11 Jan 09 12:17am
- Forum super champ Occupation Mother of 2 working more than full time
- From Wallerawang, Oz
- Member since Wed 29 Jun 05
Re: New to keeping chickens in the garden - help needed
Maree, as far as I have been able to find out chickens & ducks should be kept seperate as chickens contaminate their water supply with salmonella from their salivery glands & this can make the ducks sick.


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Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf
shafnutz05 wrote:I really don't like Hammer holding this much sway over who gets voted off, TBH. This is not a good situation right now.
Willie Kool wrote:TheHammer24 wrote:As I pointed out in one of the previous games, this is kind of a silly idea. We have enough blues that if we miss, we can still vote Shad out.
That could be seen as red logic, if you know columbia / shaf is a blue on blue thing. Assuming 1 red left - it's 6-1 now. If we're wrong on columbia, and the reds get a kill tonight, tomorrow it's 4-1. If we kill shaf and the reds get another night kill it's down to 2-1.
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Comfy and Convenient by the Philly Airport
Best Western Plus Philadelphia Airport • Chester, PA
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- A One-Night Stay for Two in a King Suite
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There's no shortage of historical sights in Philadelphia, but as the locals know, the City of Brotherly Love has only gotten better with age. A vibrant downtown area shaped by skyscrapers, museums, and landscaped parks mingles with historic monuments and academic institutions, forming a cultural center that's quickly becoming a contemporary classic. Its spreads the love in all directions, with a halo of suburbs that deliver signature Philly personality and convenience to downtown.
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"I stay here regularly on business and recommend it as a nice, comfortable, clean, and modern hotel with a friendly staff."-- TripAdvisor
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Excerpt: "Eli Manning hasn't thrown a pass in two weeks. But after being added to the NFC Pro Bowl roster yesterday, due to Aaron Rodgers withdrawing with injuries, the Giants quarterback needs to change that.
"I should start tossing it around a little this week, to make sure the arm's still loosened up a little bit," Manning said in comments distributed through the team.
Manning called the late bid a "good surprise." He said his wife, Abby, was the most excited, but Manning is looking forward to the week in Hawaii with three of his Giants teammates -- Victor Cruz, Chris Snee and Jason Pierre-Paul will also represent the NFC -- and older brother, Peyton Manning, the AFC's starting quarterback..
Manning was originally a second alternate. New Orleans' Drew Brees is replacing Robert Griffin III, who is missing the game following knee surgery. Manning may have the chance to throw to a familiar target in Cruz.
"I think that will be good to have," said Manning, who plans to travel to Hawaii Sunday. "You know his timing; you know his body language, those types of things. That will definitely be an advantage, hopefully when I'm in the game he'll be in there as well. Hopefully, we can hook up a few times and get some completions."
Manning said hasn't seen his older brother since June or July, with Eli here in New Jersey with the Giants and Peyton in Denver with the Broncos." Read more...


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Prepare for winter weather before the next round rolls in
It seems like we are going to avoid a winter blast this time, but after the Thanksgiving week blast of snow and cold many people are working to prepare for the next round of winter weather.
"Weather can change very rapidly," News 5 WCYB Chief Meteorologist Dave Dierks explains. "Just a change in temperature by a couple of degrees can make things go from bad to dangerous."
You need more than just bread and milk to weather a winter storm. Warm clothes, a spare light and heat source, and water are must-haves.
But surviving the storm can have its own dangers. Your Coleman camping stove may be great in the summer, but can be a silent killer in the winter according to Sullivan County EMA Director Jim Bean. "We encourage everyone to not use a generator, a grill or a camp stove inside their home, their garage or basement where it's closed in," Bean told us.
Bean says purchasing and and installing a carbon monoxide alarm can save lives indoors.
Sullivan County Regional Medical Director Dr. Stephen May says outside, frostbite and hypothermia are your enemy. "That can happen very quickly, but it has to be pretty cold for that to happen," he said. "You have to have exposed surfaces. Once it becomes numb you may not be aware of frostbite occurring."
Frostbite you can feel coming, but hypothermia can sneak up on you. "It can be very insidious, and as a result you don't realize you've dropped your core body temperature to the point that you can no longer respond or self-extricate," Dr. May explained.
Dr. May says keep an eye out for markers of hypothermia like confusion, slurred speech, loss of coordination, drowsiness, and loss of consciousness.
Dr. may also told us that if you think you or someone you know may be suffering from frostbite or hypothermia to seek medical attention immediately.


text:
Chevron aims to restart SLC pipeline next week
Chevron aims to restart its Colorado-to-Salt Lake City oil pipeline as soon as next week — two months after the second of two large leaks — but regulators have yet to sign off. The company is finalizing its papers for the federal pipeline safety office and intends to submit them as soon as Tuesday, spokesman Mickey Driver said. "If everything goes just right, in terms of approval and planning," he said, "we're looking at Feb. 1 to start up."
The pipeline has been shut down since a Dec. 1 spill leaked 21,000 gallons of crude from a broken valve near Red Butte Garden in Salt Lake City's eastern foothills. Six months earlier, the same pipeline spewed 33,600 gallons of oil that streamed down Red Butte Creek through east-side neighborhoods and into Liberty Park's pond before fouling stretches of the west side's Jordan River. The spills rattled public confidence in Chevron and prompted Salt Lake City Mayor Ralph Becker to demand that the pipeline remain closed until "we're satisfied, through independent assessments, that this pipeline is safe." Becker secured a third-party review to go beyond the scope of federal regulations, and Chevron agreed to pay for it.
The mayor also expects the pipeline to have a new external leak-detection system. Becker spokeswoman Lisa Harrison Smith said Monday city officials were not prepared at this point to back the pipeline's restart. The city has yet to see the consultant's report, and it expects federal regulators to consider those findings before allowing the line to resume operations.
Federal regulators are requiring the oil giant to ensure that the 182-mile pipeline and related facilities are up to standard and meet manufacturers' specifications — particularly the 50-mile stretch from Park City to the Salt Lake City refinery, a "high-consequence area" tied to the watershed for 1 million Salt Lake Valley residents. They also have promised Becker they would "work to ensure that the pipeline is not placed back into service until it is safe to do so."


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Advanced Model Making Workshop
There are no upcoming dates for this event.
Advanced Model Making Workshop
Join our Education staff for an exciting tour of the galleries and see real military vehicles that were used in wartime. Be inspired by what you see and then create your own miniature tank to take home.
For children aged 11 and over.
Workshop costs:
$15 per child; $10 for Friends of the Memorial (GST inclusive). Credit card payment required at time of booking. Materials are included.
Limited places - bookings essential.
To book, email firstname.lastname@example.com or call (02) 6243 4473.


text:
Rumor: Old Hard Rock Cafe' To Be Demolished
To conclude, here's a view of the area that the building currently occupies, from Bing Maps:
There's space for a major attraction back there, isn't there? What would you like to see in that area? A new ride? A new eatery? Be mindful that it is located right in the middle of a kids' area, therefore only family-friendly attractions should go there (if they want to follow the theme of the area)... unless they want to create a completely new area... Feel free to share your thoughts!
6 Comment(s):
Frankly, they could smash it down, and just plants trees and I'd be happy. Anythings better then an abandoned building.
I would love to see the kids area re-themed to something more upto date. Im sorry but Curious George & Barney are so 90s. A similar land to FarFarAway at USS would be perfect!
I have some great pictures of the Hard Rock Cafe back in 1997 when I was on my honeymoon, great times there. What happened to the Phsyco House up on the hill that was near by there? Anyway should build a big model village of the park...
I can't image how they could reuse that space without remodel all the kids area!!!!
Retheme the whole ET kids playground and this space to a huge Avatar "land" with a darkride, a movie (in the Terminator theater entered from the back) and a huge play land for kids like Ariel's playground in Tokyo Disney.
I would like to see a Charlie and the Chocolate Factory-darkride like the one in Alton Towers


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Share your style: #myonepieceAdd Your Photo
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Bathtub Caddy with Book Rack
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text:
"So they knocked the door down, shot up the place, some bullets bounced off stuff and every criminal except one died and you stabbed the last one in self defense," the cop asked.
"Yes," Aleea shuddered with tears, which wasn't hard.
"Ok, we should be going to bed now that those bodies are cleaned up," Jen said. "These kids have school tomorrow, even after that traumatizing event. Bye now." She shuts the door in his face. "You heard me everyone! Go to bed!"
"I'm so glad you're okay, Drake," Aleea says.
"All thanks to you," he replies.
"BED," Drake's mom thunders.
"We're going!" they said.
Topaz flutters over into Drake's room with a puzzled expression. "Drake, Aleea, come into Drakes room. I have something important to say." They walk in and shut the door. "I've been thinking. When Aleea told us that her mom was kidnapped, she said the thugs said where 'it' was. Aleea do you know your dad?" Topaz asks.
"Yeah. He's some scientist. Why do you ask?"
That's what I thought. Do you know what his latest invention is?"
"No. You still didn't tell me why you asked."
"I think they are after your dad's invention."
"What is so valuable you try to kill and kidnap people?"
Ding dong.
"Now who could that be?" Topaz says. They run down stairs and open the door.
"Hi!" greets Cryst. "How are — yohoho! What happened in here!"
"People shot at Drake in dragon form, and they got killed by the ricochet," Topaz explains.
"How can you be so casual?!"
"Inside I'm screaming my tail off."
"Doesn't seem like it."
"Shut up."
"SHUT UP! BOTH OF YOU!" Drake screams. "Cryst do you want to sleep over? We'll tell you everything in the morning if you do."
"Fine," he answers grumpily, "I'm sleeping in the guest room."
"That is my room." Aleea says.
"Couch it is."
Drake heard a knock at his door. He got out of bed and went to the door in his Jamaica shirt and plaid pjs. Aleea walks in with her robe on and a look of uncertainty on face.
"I think I figured out what Topaz was talking about," she says.
Drake sat up in his bed. "What is it?"
"I don't know for sure. I think it was a suit that makes you – OH MY GOD! It was a suit that makes you pretty much invincible!"
"Damn," swears Topaz.
"When did you wake up?" Aleea asks.
"When you yelled 'Oh my God.' Remember this is my room, too."
"Sorry," she says sheepishly.
"Well at least we know what they're after," says Drake.
"Well, no duh," says Zoey, scaring the crap out everyone. "What happened to the house?"
"Where were you?" he says.
"At a birthday party. I repeat, what happened to the house."
"What does it look like?"
"Some people shot up the place."
"There you go," Drake said. "Why did you come in my room in the first place?"
"I saw Aleea walk in in her robe and I got curious," said Zoey said.
"Pig," Topaz exclaims. "How can you even think of that?"
"Anyway," starts Aleea, "since we're all on the same page, we should all work together. Zoey you can check the middle school for anything about what we were just talking about, me and Drake can check out the high school, and Topaz, since you can read minds, check minds."
"'Kay," said Drake.
"Okedoke," said Zoey.
"Piece of cake," agreed Topaz.
"Night everybody," said Zoey. She walks out of the room.
"Night Aleea. Night Drake," says Topaz. "Night," they both say.
"Aleea, I know you were worried, but did you mean that kiss. Friends will be worried, but they would just squeeze really hard maybe a peck, but there was emotion in that kiss, I could tell. 'They were made for each other,' mom said, and then you squeezed harder," Drake says suddenly.
"What about you?" she starts. "You could have said stop."
"So you did mean it. I thought you would deny it."
"Better to let it out than to bottle it up, Drake."
"Was that advice or an answer?"
"Both. We should be getting to bed. See you tomorrow morning."
"Night." Drake sighs. Aleea walks out of the room and Drake hears her door shut in the hall.
"You love her Drake," Topaz tells him. "I can tell without reading your mind."
"Is it really that obvious?"
"Just like your mom said, you two were made for each other. Just so you know, Drake, she loves you too. Night."
Topaz by Billy Wieler Chapter 8
"So they knocked the door down, shot up the place, some bullets bounced off stuff and every criminal except one died and you stabbed the last one in self defense," the cop asked.


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Neighbor-friendly garden
Design: Mark Tessier Landscape Architecture, Santa Monica; marktessier.com
When Rika Houston knocks on doors to invite neighbors over for an impromptu screening, she's never short of takers. Located in the front yard of the Los Angeles home she shares with her husband, architect Brian Ten, the cinema is unlike any other in town. Sinking into the cushy sofa with lanterns lit overhead, guests watch The Birds or The Sound of Music on a screen nearly as big as the garage wall. "In the summer, every Friday is movie night," says Houston.
With the help of landscape architect Mark Tessier, Ten overhauled their yard to create a gathering spot for the family, which includes 9-year-old daughter Maya and teenage sons Cole and Taro. But as movie night took off, the couple has been happy to see how it has transformed the neighborhood too. "It's one thing to bump into someone on the street and share a few words," says Ten. "With this outdoor theater, we've gotten to know our neighbors much better."


text:
Puzzle Levels
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Funny Farm
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Product Information
|fill the barnyard with tractor and other pieces
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|Popular Playthings
|Games - Children, Strategy - Logical
Product Description
Maker: Popular Playthings
Age: 8+
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So, what are you waiting for? Put on your overalls and start your tractor. It's time to cultivate those brain cells and plow up some fun!
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text:
This thread is being started for my friend Clayton.
This thread is being started for my friend Clayton.
Hi Dee,
I guess this will be the category I would like to start under since I will be keeping carniolans (hybrid at some point I'm sure). What are some basic characteristics of black bees prior to 1959? How are they different than todays bees? Mellifera, carniolan, and caucasian have their own set of characteristics due to their place of origin. Did they change when they were brought to the US if so how? Any thing else I need to know to get this thread off the ground? Thanks.
Hi Clayton. Saw your post to get started 12-22-2000 at 08:49 AM concerning to know what old characteristics written for Carnolian are in the old texts.
I am now looking at ABJ, 1888, page 19, now quoted for your benefit:
"Our bees fly in dark and cool weather, and suffer very little from diarrhea and other spring maladies...they are used to rapid changes of temperature. Our bees are preverbially kind and gentle.
...These bees are great beauties, being nearly black, with white stripes - the white being probably due to hairs, as they all seem to be young bees...
Their flight seems to be very strong, and I am inclined to think them large as compared with the Italians...these mountain bees flying very freely, with the mercury at 45 degrees, when not a wing was to be seen about my other hves (Italians)."
I am now looking at ABJ, 1888,pg 519 in a letter written by Frank Benton, now quoted for your benefit:
"There is in the race a tinge of yellow blood that crops out every now and then, do the best one may. I breed only from such queens as produce gray workers--such as no yellow or orange bands--not even a tinge of orange, and I permit no drones to be reared in any apiary except those from Carnolian queens whose workers and drones are quite gray; but there are several native apiaries near me, over which I have no control, and whose owners care nothing for yellow bands if they exist.
There were at my residence today, two intelligent beekeepers from the northern part of Carniola, and I questioned them on this point, and they replied that an occasional tendency toward orange or rusty-red bands was always the case with all Carniolans, but that it was no mark of impurity in the race, since it exists so all over Carniola.
..When now we take into account the fact that Carniolans are much hardier and more prolific than Italians,we have more abundant reason, to place them as superior to Italians... "
This text from ABJ, 1888, pg 765 on Carnolians is now quoted:
"the most notable new trait about them is, their freedom from the disposition to 'rob' or their vigilance in guarding their hives."
From ABJ, 1922, pg 113 quoted on carnolian bees.
"The Carnolians also swarm much more readily than either the common bees or the Italian."
From ABJ, 1927, pg 492 quoted on Carnolians:
"The carniolans are not so quite on the comb as the Italians, but fully as gentle.When I open a hive, as many as a dozen may fly at my hands or face, but they hardly ever sting-simply touch with their antennae as if curious, and fly back to the hive. They never rob or drift, but resist robbers well.They build up faster than Italians and are ready to swarm a week or ten days sooner. They build more queeen cells and will swarm more if left alone.Sometimes a queen will not be satisfied with two hive bodies, but starts to fill the third with brood, when kept in Langstroth hives.
They fly farther than Italians and are usually the first to find new sources of honey....They keep the colony up to honey-gathering strength later in the season.
The only cross that I would recommend is between leather-colored Italians and Carniolans...The first cross is usually good; further crosses are more uncertain.I have never known a Carniolan or the first cross to rob, but when crossed with Italians so that the hybrids were mostly Italians robbing would sometimes occur."
From ABJ 1935, pg 578
" The purest type of the Carniolan race is dark gray, or steel colored, larger than our common bees, and wholly free from yellow bands...always gentle and easily managed."
From ABJ 1951, pg 60
"In ABJ for 1890...described the carniolan bees as follows: The carniolan workers are not very large, but the abdominal rings of hairs are very plainly marked. The hair is light gray, so that the bees seem distinctly banded.The color of the abdomen is grayish-black, or dark drab, and so it is not so black as the typical German bee. The wings are large and strong.
The Carniolan queen is very large -larger perhaps, than the queen of any other of our domesticated bees. As is well known, while the common black queen is very black above, she is bronze-colored beneath.The typical carniolan has this rich bronze color on the entire abdomen."
I hope this helps you out some Clayton. The next post will concern Caucasian bees for you for reference.
Very best regards to you. Looking forward to your comments.
Thanks Dee,
I made a list of these characteristics from the info. They are:
1.fly in dark, cool weather (45 degrees)
2.suffer little from disease
3.used to changing weather
4.kind and gentil
5.dark gray w/ white stripes (occational orange or rusty-red bands)
6.hardier and more prolific than italians
7.rob, drift very little
8.guard hive well
9.swarm readily
10.not as quite on combs as italians
11.build up fast- sometimes need three hive bodies
12. flay farther than italians
13.honey gathering strength lasts longer into season
Do you have any info on honey production, ability to draw comb, use of winter stores, ect? The only draw backs to carniolans I can see is there higher tendency to swarm. I am planning to use three hive bodies per colony to over winter. Split to two bodies to control swarming and the third will be a single for honey production or used as mating nucs. Then recombined for winter. Have any recomendations? Also I over winter nucs to have queens for spring this also culls those that don't cut it. However regression is my top priority over queen rearing at this point. OK, how about caucasians?
Hi Clayton. This is in reply to your post of 12-23-2000 at 10:32 AM.
I just loved the listing you did from the excerpts of the ABJ articles I
quoted for you. Before I answer your questions at the bottom from the
archives also that I;ve read, here's background on Caucasian bees for you to
make another listing since you did such a good job on the first!
Taken from ABJ, 1888, Pg 778 Caucasian bees are;
"They are remarkably gentle, seldom stinging, yet they can sting when
abused...These bees cling to the combs firmly when the frames of combs are
handled. As honey gatherers they are as good as the best. Their cappings are
equal to that of the blacks, being very white and thick. The bee-glue or
propolis is not half as sticky as that of the blacks or Italians.They gather
immense quantities of Pollen. The queens are remarkably prolific, and
colonies swarm once a week, of left to their own management.
They build more queen-cells than any other race of bees. The brace-combs
seem to be made of dark wax, a kind of mud color, which is objectionable
when cappings are stuck to the seperators. They are extra hardy, and stand
our cold, bleak winters splendidly.
Their color is of a dark copper hue, or fine orange like...They are large
bees, yet long and slim. Their wings are long, and will carry a big load.
They work when Cyprians and blacks are idle, and are out earlier in the
morning , and fly later in the evening.They gathered honey right along
during the drouth of 1886 and 1887, when the blacks, Cyprians and Italians
gathered none...
They not only stand the heat, dryness and cold better, but against robbers,
insects, moth-millers and fungus they have no equal; and when properly
understood and managed, they will gather as much honey as any bees, but they
require another system of management...
The queens want more room than any race of bees that I ever owned. The
pecular device I have adopted in my management of them was that I gave the
queens more room."
Taken from ABJ,1915, pg 209 for Caucasian bees
"...There is another great trait of the Caucasians, and that is the way they
stick to their location.../we found practically no drifting with them, but
not so with Italians.
They are the first to build up in the spring, and the first to enter the
supers, and are very quiet, no disturbance excites them;and the best of all
is they cap their honey snow white, which means thick well ripened honey.
The queens are long lived, doing good work at five years if well bred and
well developed."
Taken from ABJ, 1915, for Caucasian bees:
"varying from a dark smutty greyish color to a very bright grey and some
almost yellow...So all Caucasians are not alike in color...The great
objection to Caucasians is the difficulty of recognizing a small amount of
hybridization with the common bee.In the Italian race, the crosses show much
more readily..Yellow Caucasians are not liked in Europe."
Taken from ABJ 1922, page 471 for Caucasian bees:
"This opinion was also given by Frank Benton...who said: 'the most precious
bee which I will bring to America from my world travels is the grey bee of
Taken from ABJ, 1927,pg 573
"There are two main sorts of the Caucasian bees. The typical bee for the
Caucasus is the mountain gray Caucasian bee..We find at Caucasus also the
second sort, the yellow Caucasian bee. She lives in North Caucasus.
She has yellow or orange areas on the two or three bands of the abdomen
counting from the thorax. The mountain gray Caucasian bee is extraordinarily
peaceable, laborious, tolerant to the cold and rought wintering which she
finds at high mountain localities.The bee of this gray race has also very
prolific queens and swarms moderately. These bees fill the cells with honey
very much before they cover them with cappings...
The gray mountain caucasian bee is so peaceable that the native beekeepers
manipulate the frames and bees commonly without veils and smoker."
From ABJ, 1931,pg 14
"The queens of the Caucasian bee are dark."
(note-Our caucasian queens backs are black with copperish-orange
underbellies, some queens with this color inbetween the tergits when the
abdomen is extended and she is fully laying. -Dee)
From ABJ, 1932,pg 201
Caucasians...undoubtedly fly at from 2-5 degrees lower temperature than
Italians with which they hve been compared. The colonies are extremely
thrifty...there are always stores in the brood chamber for use, and no
surplus is stored until the brood chamber is amply stocked for current use
of the bees in their own domestic economy.The queens rather definitely fill
one brood comb full of brood before expanding to the next comb.
Caucasian queens are apparently more easily introduced than Italians...The
tendency of Caucasians to close the entrances more or less with propolis is
quite definite...They also seem to stand more crowding without undue
tendency to swarm than do Italians. This may be realted to their tendency to
a compactness of brood chamber and their habit of occupying additional space
only as absolutely required."
From ABJ 1933,pg 214
Pure Caucasian workers call for gray bodies with silver bands. When they get
mixed with either of the black races, they are all black but if they get
mixed with Italians, they are either all black, or some yellow with the
black...The queens hold their color better than the workers even when mixed
with other races and so will the drones...As to honey production, they are
equal to any other race and they are far earier to handle."
From ABJ,1933,pg 349
"It was found that these Caucasians had a tongue length exceeding that of
any other race or strain of bees in the United states at the time."
From ABJ, 1933,pg 436
"they go into the winter with a smaller population of bees, but come out in
the spring stronger than the Italians...Spring dwindling is very uncommon
with caucasians and very common with Italians...outright winter losses are
much fewer...they consume far less stores during winter than do the
From ABJ, 1940,pg 215
"Other dominant characters indicate that the caucasian is basically
resistant to American Foulbrood, a disease to which the yellow bee is
particularly susceptible."
From ABJ,1951,pg 59
"The bees of the caucasus area could be broken down into 6 separate
areas...The caucasian reveals a similar variation with the darker color
approaching black instead of dark leather...this is important, because,where
variation exists, selection is possible."
I could probably find more Clayton, but let's start with this for you to
list. Then we can go into comparing the two together.Please note Clayton,
that the common black listed, are references to the common black bee of
Europe, the other Black race you are looking to define, in case you want to
start a third listing, we can add to. We can end up comparing to yellow
races then after you and I or others participating, also go through the the
yellow races.
Waiting for your comments.
The list for caucasians was a little more difficult to gather being a lot more info. Here it is:
1.gentil (seldom stings- unless abused)
2.good honey gatherers (as good as the others)
3.close entrances w/ propolis (but is not as sticky as other races)
4.cappings are white
5.gathers large amounts of pollen
6.build some brace comb
7.winters well- small populations-build up well
8.color- anywhere from grey to dark grey, some are almost yellow, dark copper hue or fine orange(God help me, more variations possible)-have long wings, too
9.fly early, late in evening
10.prolific queens-often needs more room(same as carnies above)-queens long lived
11.fly at 2-5 degrees lower temp than italians
12.can stand more crowding than italians
13. long tongue
14.AFB resistant ???(this may have been selected by beekeeper)
15. little drifting
Sound like good bees to me. To add to the carniolan list: 14.also have long tongue
15.winters well- small populations
Seems to me that caucasians and carniolans have quite a few similar characteristics. I wonder why? Both should not be managed in the same way as italian colonies thats for sure. To be sucessful with any race one should have a deep understanding of their characteristics. OK how about apis mellifera mellifera (black bees)? Any thing you want to add to my list that I missed?
Clay - merry christmas
This post is in reply to dialogue started for Clayton in December 2000 and in reply to some of his comments posted between 22 Dec - 27 Dec on information I looked up for him.
In conversation, Clayton wants to know how todays black bees are different from the same types written about from about 1888 to 1959, and did they change when they were brought to the US and how?
Well, this would probably have to be my opinion here, and will probably start some big disagreements, but basically I would say today's bees are different because they:
1. Have been bred for a more uniform consistant color and specific sizing quite different from when they originally arrived in the USA.
2. They are more prone to disease and parasite attacks due to unreasonable
enlargement placing them out-of-tune with more natural floras for foraging and artificial enlargement of brood combs.
3. They no longer propolize the same, store honey the same, and collect/store pollen the same.(not to say that some still don't do, but many do not).
4. They are shorter lived as queens, in laying ability, having to be replaced on a yearly basis, rather than every 2-3 years.
Clayton wrote pertaining to my posting of characteristics on Carnolian bees,
'I am planning to use three hive bodies per colony to over winter. Split to two bodies to control swarming and the third will be a single for honey production or used as mating nucs. Then recombined for winter. Have any recomendations?'
Yes, Clayton. I believe that you will need to have more supers ready for use thanyou are planning.
Clayton wrote further pertaining to Carnolians:
'Also I over winter nucs to have queens for spring; this also culls those that don't cut it. However, regression is my top priority over queen rearing at this point.'
This is wise Clayton, to have spares available to take up deadouts. Then you
can dispose of them by either selling to others or combining for use of the
best queens for usage.
You write that 'however, regression is my top priority over queen rearing at
this point.'
For this I must say then, you need to plan to get equipment ready for when your bees are first brooding and whitening combs, to start, so you can gain survivalability first, then go for gaining variability by adding numbers, and finally then start to go into breeding. It will be a three step process, no matter what scale you do it on, I think you will find.
Clayton wrote further pertaining to my posting about Caucasian characteristics:
'Sound like good bees to me. To add to the Carnolian list: 14.also have long
tongue 15.winters well- small populations'
Actually, no, do not post this to the end of the Carnolian list.
Caucasian bees have longer tongues than any other race, not Carnolians; Caucasians
also winter well with smaller clusers in size, compared to Carnolians.
Clayton, I noted you saw caucasians and carnolians have quite a few similar
characteristics. This is because they are both black bee type races of northern temperate latitudes and also both cold-weather type bees.
Now before I end. Clayton you wanted to also know about apis mellifera mellifera characteristics. Well a few were noted in the comments while writing about the Carnolian and Caucasian bee characteristics for you. But, for more detailed information here is a good site for your to look at and
read about their characteristics there from the UK.Please reference apis mellifera mellifera characteristics are available at
I hope you have had a very Merry Christmas and celebrated a great New Year in for 2001.
Best regards to you:
Hi Dee,
I didn't mean to imply that carniolan bees had alonger tongue than caucasians. Just was saying their tongue is "longer" than italians.This info was gathered from Apiservices under an article titled Apis Mellifera Carnica a site from their homeland. Check it out (Don't have address at the moment, search apiservises). Should bee easy to find.
Hi again,
Here is a copy of a letter on A.m.m. sent to me:
I promised this posting early last year! I am glad to be jogged into
writing this though I should be doing my tax return!
There is much research and development going on in Europe into A.m.m.
You have been referred to BIBBA and the Galtee group and German sites.
DNA work has been started and is very promising. Bee Improvement, the
journal of BIBBA has many excellent articles and the many publications
of BIBBA since the 60's are a fine start to a library on A.m.m. with Beo
Cooper's Honeybees of the British Isles (1986) also available from
BIBBA. For those unfamiliar with the different races we are talking
about one race (possibly with 3 subdivisions in France) which colonised
the whole of Europe *north* of the mountain ranges which separate it
from southern Europe - from the Pyrenees to the Caucasus. After the last
Ice Age, the small pocket of bees left surviving during the long Ice Age
in S.W. France expanded following the growth of trees.
There are many identified pockets of almost pure A.m.m. which we tend to
call "near native" since cross mating with many imported races started
in the mid 1800's and intensified after the 1914-18 war. Nevertheless
the climate is a harsh selector and many of us are convinced that the
imports have a harder time especially where it is wet and cool in spring
(and wet and relatively cool every other time too!).
Being one who selects for the native characters along with a group of
local friends also BIBBA members they are as follows.
Cool weather flying (some local bees have been seen flying at 8C shade
temperature from a sunny wall - wild colony). Mine regularly fly from
9C. Beo Cooper reported bees flying at 7.2C to collect pollen from
turnip. The same goes for drones - black bees are the first to fly and
often the only bees flying if there are mixed races or hybrids present
to compare with. Beo estimated that in favourable areas dark bees have
the advantage over yellow bees for half the time rising to 95% of the
time in areas like where I keep bees. So the selection in mating is
high. This may be reversed in hot summers (like once upon a time we did
have!). Beo suggested that Workers flying in bright sun should be able
to collect pollen at 5.5C in still air and drones from 7C. I have never
attempted to measure this but identify colonies which start flying
soonest as ones to breed from. He also saw queens flying at 9C.
Tends not to fly over snow but will fly in light rain. I haven't been
able to test this as we rarely have snow here.
Dark - black or brown and shades between. They can have yellow
Hairy - long abdominal overhairs. I have not measured these.
Non-prolific but long-lived. The two together with low temperature
flying means that in our "marginal" climate it out performs other bees
most years. I have not yet marked workers to test how long, but 10 weeks
as adult is mentioned by Beo from studies of workers marked in May.
Hence the smaller British hives. Most years colonies will not fill a 11
frame hive of 8 1/2" x 14" frames. I have some that push this a bit but
the idea of 2 Langstroth hives for one colony is far-fetched! I have
some colonies on the "Unified" frame of 14" x 14" and they go up to 9
frames absolute maximum with a lovely oval brood shape (vertical axis -
better for heat conservation). It means also that queens can last longer
- 3 years would be common and 4-5 years would be reasonable for bees
kept in one smaller brood chamber. They also seem to be more
"compressible" i.e. less liable to a "compression" swarm if they are
confined to a smaller hive.
Storage of pollen is very high - this gives it a strong cushion when
they cannot get out. They will still collect large quantities of pollen
even when queenless! In spring and summer they may have 2-3 weeks pollen
stored. Also pollen is stored anywhere - under the brood and even in
amongst the brood. I have several colonies where the pollen is all round
the brood. They also lay up stocks of pollen in late summer. I haven't
investigated this myself, but Beo reckoned that most of the late pollen
was eaten by early October even if the bees stopped rearing brood in
late August. Here we think the bees winter on fat stores in their bodies
and use little honey in the winter. This is a selecting character again.
If they can do this they can survive if cut off from their stores in
cold weather.
There is a characteristic wing type which members measure diligently and
which differentiates it from Italian and Carnican bees (and others). Beo
suggested it allows large pollen and nectar loads which are helpful with
poorer nectar. he also suggested they fly more slowly, rest more
frequently, but have greater staying power than Italians in the wind.
(Is this the kind of bias you have met?)
Beo *suggested* a genetically larger bee size - 700 foundation producing
bees with 5-10% greater wing breadth and length with corresponding
increase in size. Italians and Carnicans don't increase much if put on
700. I have always taken this to be true having seen my dark bees as
larger than many others. Please note I am not getting into the cell size
discussion here though I will be assessing this next year along with
some other BIBBA members.
They are thrifty and adjust brood rearing to income or stores. They will
not go flat out regardless of the position and starve if they run out.
They have been observed to stop even with 9kg stores (20lb). I have not
paid particular attention to this but last summer I had to feed one
colony only - 2 weeks of May were good then the last 2 weeks in July and
the first 2 in August - the rest were poor - wet and unusually cool -
prolonged! Recently we have had long mild winters and cool springs - the
result larger than usual colonies in May.
Honey cappings convex. There appears to be a small air layer over the
honey. This seems also to be a selection character as the cells are
protected from weeping in wet autumns. I have not tested for air myself.
Cool air clustering helps them make wax on old nights.
Brood pattern compact - spherical or taller than broad (in hilly and
northern latitudes).
Winter honey storage in the brood chamber near the entrance. Lots of my
colonies stock up from late July as the brood nest is contracting and
the whole thing fills up. It is usually easy to have the recommended
40lb honey in the brood chamber without feeding, though I know lots of
beekeepers who take as much as they can and feed sugar syrup to get
maximum profit. Few of my colonies need feeding, though I sometimes
leave a super on if there's less than 20lb. 30lb I leave them to the ivy
to fill up - hopefully. The compacting of stores near the entrance seems
to help them stay in contact with stores and defend the nest better as
well as get it all properly ripened.
Broodnest temperature varies. It can go down as low as 18C. I have never
measured this at all. It may be associated with a greater susceptibility
to chalk brood. This year we had a lot, but the colonies recovered in
May very well (all except one of mine which presumably found difficulty
covering the brood, which never provided sufficient bees to replace the
dying ones, so could never keep the brood temperature up).
Low tendency to drift. Marked drones tend to stay in the same hive over
months (Beo). This tendency helps apiary vicinity mating keep an apiary
within strain. The spread of disease is reduced.
Drones expelled earlier and in times of nectar dearth. This can happen
several times in a season. So there may be several batches of drones
reared in a season.
Drone assemblies and apiary vicinity mating - in addition to major drone
assemblies there are local assemblies which form in changeable weather
or warm humid periods of thundery or showery weather - often within 200m
of the apiary (Beo). However, where the weather is less settled or more
rainy there may not be enough time for these to form so queens and
drones mate close to the hives in bursts of sunshine for example. Queens
may mate with drones that follow them out of the hive! This has been
seen - but not by me. One queen was seen mating on the side of a hive!
Compatible temperament! Over generations, whilst a proportion of
colonies may be bad tempered and the queen is culled to keep good temper
as a major characteristic of the apiary strain, on the whole, they tend
to keep the temper good.
Supersedure is common - Beo reckoned at least 10%, many native strains
being 25% - some approach 100%. I have not counted over the years but I
am selecting the breeder queens to have survived at least 2 years and
superseded if possible. Even better are queens whose daughters let her
live - I had 1 definitely confirmed this year. This year there were some
late supersedures (September) one of which was too late because of foul
weather for a very long time
Overall the climate selects for characters assisting survival, even
where we beekeepers try to assist our colonies. Beo used the term
"ecological" isolation to contrast with the more easily understood
"geographical" isolation breeders often use and those wanting within
strain mating to be more guaranteed. Several of the factors mentioned
above fall into this category and explain why black bees seem to select
themselves if you don't import new queens on an annual basis.
I would dearly love to have figures of productivity comparing races and
hybrids over the years as unless you are a migratory beekeeper I see no
reason to import non-native bees to the UK.
> Also info on them from the turn of the century 1800's to
>1950. State source please, thanks.
I don't have any but if there's no response from others, I will have a
look at some of the old texts we have in our library.
James Kilty
Ignoring the cell size part their is quite a few characteristics in their about Apis mellifera mellifera. Comments or what do you think?
Well Clay, you sure watch things close and are fast to reply. Liked your two posts today (5Jan01).
Well you now write:
Comments or what do you think?
Could you please explain to me (reasonably simply)what's the difference
between the bee races? Ironically this is something I've been asking from
day one, what makes ligustica different from capensis? They all look like
honeybees to me. It appears that if they can interbreed, then the genetic
information is common to both, and OTHER FACTORS must determine the apparent
characteristics of the individual. These are not horses and donkeys here.
Color and size relative to latitude and altitude, with genetics/characteristics that reverse themselves in dominance between tropical and temperate zones, both North and South of the Equator.
Well, Clay, what I see is what I posted on another thread, in this area of queens and breeding, etc; and that is
Take away the names and all you seem to have are color, size and characteristics very similar for black bees relative to latitude and altitude.
You know Clayton, yellow bees naturally range the least amount of land area naturally on our globe compared to the natural distribution of black bees, which range and cover the most land mass on our globe.
You hear beekeepers always telling of small black bees surviving for years out in the wild, but at the same time, where are the yellow ones doing this?
I look at these lists of characteristics for the three written so far and there are more similarities than dissimilarities. Even color is very close. Look at apis mellifera mellifera compared to Caucasian, then the small Caucasian compared to Carnolian.
On our enlarged system today of bigger cells and all on 5.4mm foundation or bigger, seems all we have done is make all the bees the same, taken away their variability, and in the long run then their survivalability.
Kind of makes one wonder why we even bother to call them seperate names anymore?
Maybe in a way, that is what going back to biological beekeeping is about. It gains control of problems back, sizes the bees back down, and then the beekeeper can let the bees kept by him/her continue going smaller as combs age older, or size back up, introducting new comb, or do what ever he/she pleases, once he gets a handle on his problems of parasites and secondary diseases within a clean sustainable beekeeping system.
Comments from you Clay, What do you think about the similarities from the late 1880s - 1950 or so for the three races so far?
Are you seeing what I am seeing in similarities? So why do people fight over it?
Very best regards
P.S. Want to try Italian characteristics next to go over, to add to?
Hi Dee,
Here is some info from THE HIVE AND THE HONEYBEE, pg. 29:
Even though these two species of bees are closely related, crossbreeding between Apis cerana and Apis mellifera does not produce viable offspring (Maul and Ruttner,1969). Although both species share the same sex attractant, it is difficult to maintain them together in the same area (Ruttner, 1975).
My question is why don't they produce viable offspring? They both look similar don't they.
You said: It makes one wonder why we even bother to use different names any more?
Here's my two cents worth. It doesn't matter anymore. These "black bees" are from Europe and they developed in certain climates that are distinct from one another thus "races" or sets of characteristics developed to help them survive in these areas. Well there not in these climates or areas anymore when brought to the new world. Thus to try to keep they same characteristics that say for example someone in Italy or England might need would be foolish since we don't live there. These bees need to adapt to their new surrounding(new plant,mountains, and differences in seasons). Or in a nut shell we should allow bees to adapt to the area where thy live. This poses problems when we ship queens from north to south or east to west. This is not to say the bees have changed but it would make it impossible for them to acclimates to their indvidual microclimates so that they would be more able to survive. With that said I think it is undesirable reproduce bees that mimic characteristics of other areas. Instead one should breed bees based on survivability (black in this case since we are discussing black bees here) and allow the bees to point to what is needed to do this. This means using local stocks and breeding uniformity to establish bees that are tuned in to the area where one keeps them.(Yes, one can still do this and have commercial aspects so man can make a profit from them.)
My overall objective as a beekeeper is to have bees that are healthy,survive, and thrive. So in my above ramblings NO names of races probably aren't important, just the bees themselves.
Ya lets talk about them yellow girls now. I have some of them too.
I wonder whether the 'small black bees' Dee describes are the same as the A. m. m. we know in Britain? Going by what Beo Cooper says, together with my own observations of black bees among my hybrids, the British bee is a large one. This is what one would normally expect in a race adapted for a cold climate. Dee lives in very different climatic conditions; I wonder whether she has a bee (possibly descended from A. m m. and hybridised or adapted for new conditions) which is significantly different in some respects?
Has anyone done any work on the old American black bees which everyone seems to curse? I'd be very interested to know whether they were an inferior race of A. m. m., as I've seen suggested, or whether they were hybridised.
Robert Brenchley
I've now learnt that A. m. m. displays considerable 'plasticity', and varies considerably in size. So Dee's bees could be the same subspecies that we see in Britain - but if so, how is it that a northern bee apparently adapts so well to a desert climate?
It would be really interesting to know whether anyone has done any morphometric or genetic study of American bees, as this would tell us so much about their origin, and clear up the question about 'native' bees at the same time.
Robert Brenchley
Robert Brenchley posted Jan 15, 2001, 06:36 PM the following:
"I've now learnt that A. m. m. displays considerable 'plasticity', and varies considerably in size. So Dee's bees could be the same subspecies that we see in Britain - but if so, how is it that a northern bee apparently adapts so well to a desert climate?"
Not all deserts are hot and not all deserts are cold. What do you consider a desert climate?
We are in the northern temperate zone just like your are,of which black bees are the most widely dispersed with yellow bees being the least.
Plasticity here being relative to variation by latitude and altitude, which naturally changes cell size, and therefore the size of the bees themselves.
As for the origin or our bees. You think they didn't come across the old land bridge early on? Maybe you think the early Spanish didn't bring them also? Maybe for two hundred years the Europeans didn't bring them first either?
Robert, why do you call them different black bees in origin from yours? Comments?
I'm thinking of different environments. I don't know what the temperature in your desert is, but it will be a contrast with our damp climate, that's for sure. You've had several centuries of hybridisation going on - I'm assuming that settlers would have taken bees from different parts of Europe, correct me if I'm wrong. So what I'm imagining is the development of a hybrid which shares the same colour as A. m. m., but may have acquired other, less obvious, characteristics from other races. Obviously the end result is a desert-adapted bee, but I'd be really interested to see what genetic material went into the making of it.We may not be very good at producing consistently good hybrid bees, but I suspect natural selection can do it quite easily.
Robert Brenchley,
Hi Robert. Please reference your post of Jan 19, 2001, 04:40 AM during which you wrote:
I'm thinking of different environments. I don't know what the temperature in your desert is, but it will be a contrast with our damp climate, that's for sure.
Contrast yes, this past October it rained and flooded out all the fall flow, besides washing out a few communities on our flood plains, and in November it froze out much our coldest in history. We lucked out with a winter flow that helped avoiding to have to feed back 6+ barrels of honey to our bees. It's January now and been raining and snowing all around now for half the month and I must say I don't like the temperatures down in the 20s at night. Some desert! But it is nice from May until September, though the monsoons do start around 4 July traditionally each year and then it is humid as you know what!
You also wrote:
You've had several centuries of hybridisation going on - I'm assuming that settlers would have taken bees from different parts of Europe, correct me if I'm wrong. So what I'm imagining is the development of a hybrid which shares the same colour as A. m. m., but may have acquired other, less obvious, characteristics from other races.
Sounds like the hybridization I read about in UK with yellow and carnolian stock from mainland Europe this whole past century of 100 years+. Technically we're only 100 years more give or take!
You also wrote:
Obviously the end result is a desert-adapted bee, but I'd be really interested to see what genetic material went into the making of it.We may not be very good at producing consistently good hybrid bees, but I suspect natural selection can do it quite easily.
Other than latitude and altitude, I would imagine the hybridization to be about the same, including artificial insemination butting in, and shipment of packages back and forth from there to here and here to there contributing, to a similar mix for the both of us.
We have been into studying it, to reverse now for about 18+ years and I understand so has Dave Cushman, etc. Maybe someday we'll compare notes.
As for us both having A. mm. Yes, we do!Also as altitide equates with latitude, I see no difference, just stigmas in peoples minds!
When we get over the stigmas, we'll all progress forward.
Sorry, this thing forwarded the last post when I wasn't ready for it. Our rainfall here varies from, if I remember correctly, about 40 inches per year to 200 plus in some mountain areas.
Yes, we have a situation with uncontrolled hybridisation here, and I'm sure it happens on your side of the atlantic as well. Apparently in some areas of the States, at least, there is genetic distinction between feral and managed stocks. So what's going on there? Whatever they are, they will have succeeded in adapting to conditions which, in most cases, will be significantly different from those in their area of origin; it would be interesting to know what the feral bees are descended from.
You say that your situation only goes back about 100 years before us, so when did the bees arrive? Importation of Italians here began in the second half of the 19th Century, and accelerated greatly after the First World War. So were early imports over there all from Northern Europe?
Robert Brenchley
Hi Robert. This is in reply to your post of 19 Jan 2001, 03:44 PM during which you wrote:
Yes, we have a situation with uncontrolled hybridisation here, and I'm sure it happens on your side of the atlantic as well. Apparently in some areas of the States, at least, there is genetic distinction between feral and managed stocks. So what's going on there? Whatever they are, they will have succeeded in adapting to conditions which, in most cases, will be significantly different from those in their area of origin; it would be interesting to know what the feral bees are descended from.
You say that your situation only goes back about 100 years before us, so when did the bees arrive?
That is open to debate as I have said before,both yellow and black bees in appearance, like bees from Europe, were reported here prior, by early explorers and the question of native bees has never been qualitatively answered. However IMPOV I believe that the yellower ones were further south in the Americas and the black ones were more to the north.
C.P. Dadant did however write that the first importations were in 1859, from Germany for Italians, who had succeeded in bringing them across the Alps where they were breeding them in several districts of Germany. Then in 1860, S. B. Parsons also imported a number of colonies from Italy as this is where the bees were most accessable from. This is probably similary here for UK getting the queens from Italy because of the easyness of it as the fad got going.
Robert you also wrote:
So were early imports over there all from Northern Europe?
That is hard to say really. If one talks about European history and UK well yes. However, you must remember that the spanish were here first and colonized much and sea routes were different.Trade winds do come across the Alantic in the South and it is possible ships from Spain went down the African coast and then across the waters to here bringing things in the way of livestock and possible bees. We were invited to Seville to check out the various early ships manifests to see. But it was to costly to go and see, to be honest with you.
Much of our high mountainous regions is still quite rural and unsettled and we have vast national parks. Even along our coastal plains there are few settlements due to vast marshes were bees are known to be. Even in the early travels of De Soto, there was written much of black bees in the Americas. Are they hybridized and different? Some DNA analysises say they are not like that which was brought here. So the question then becomes. If they do not match, then what are they and where did they come from? In my POV I would say many bees in the feral do not match bees in the domestic and this indeed has been verified. Are they A.mm? Yes, for all A.mm is is a small black bee that varies by name given by man and localized area in which it resides. Is it different from yours?
Yes and No. Depends upon what you call different.
Hi Dee.
What do I call different? To explain that I'll have to insult you with some basic biology. What we have is a very variable species, which can adapt, it seems, to almost any environment which allows a reasonable foraging season. There are numerous local variants, or 'races'.
We moved bees around in large numbers, mixed everything up, and introduced them to a new continent, where they met conditions (desrts) which EHB had never (probably) encountered in nature.
We now have two processes going on:
1) Continuing movement of bees, along with AI, which obscure:
2) Natural selection, which will rapidly, in any given area, remove those genes which hinder the survival of the local bees, and multiply those which do. This is what fascinates me; as far as I'm aware, there's no similar opportunity to see natural selection at work anywhere. In my own area, we have cool wet summers, with sometimes long periods when the bees cannot forage effectively. A bee with a large broodnest, such as the Italian, will tend to eat its way through the stores in these periods, and thus possibly fail to survive the winter. So we tend to have bees with smaller broodnests, and longer individual lives to compensate. In other areas, other environmental characteristics will produce bees with different characteristics, probably drawn from a number of different 'races'.
As far as I know, nobody's studied this in any detail; the information is undoubtedly there within the beekeeping community, it would be interesting to find out, for instance, whether an 'Italian' bee from Italy differes from one in Texas, and that from one in Alberta, and if so, how.
Robert Brenchley