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Is Xocai a Scam?
[This article was originally a placeholder. A commenter named Paul significantly hijacked the conversion on my article exposing ViSalus as a scam. I've done my best to move most of those comments and conversation to this article. Thus there's a little discussion about ViSalus which may be confusing, but I hope it is minimal.
Finally, a year and a half after those conversations took place, I've been able to find the time to write an article covering Xocai in some detail. As with all of my MLM articles, I strive for accuracy and am happy to correct any information that seems incorrect. Simply leave a message in the comments with your concerns and I'll read and respond to them.]
Xocai's "Study" in the American Journal of Bariatric Medicine
I first heard about about Xocai when someone commented on my articles that it was covered in the American Journal of Bariatric Medicine. That sounded really official, so I went to read more about it in detail. I noticed that the Xocai Store seems to have a copy to read. Unfortunately, clicking the link doesn't bring you to the study, but instead brings you to Xocai's self promotional press release about the study. Nonetheless, there's a PDF copy of the article available here:
Before I get into the article in detail, I want to comment on the source and the authors.
The authors are Machiel N. Kennedy, M.D. and Steven E. Warren, M.D.
Machiel Kennedy (who goes by "Mike Kennedy" - perhaps his parents had a typo in his name?) has done a Q & A with Xocai. That's not to say he's completely biased, but since the study is pitched as generic "cocoa meal replacement", it is a little surprising to see.
Warren is revealed to be a Xocai Medical Advisor here. As a doctor with that position, it is likely highly illegal for him to do a Q&A saying that chocolate with all the questions that are asked... including suggesting that it helps Crohn's disease. Those who are familiar with supplements are likely also familiar with the disclaimer, "This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease." So when Warren is caught stating that Xocai chocolate will "help a lot" with Crohn's disease, we have a problem.
It's pretty hard to take Warren seriously given his bias and what appears to be flaunting of the FDA's regulations on supplements.
Perhaps more importantly than the authors themselves, the American Journal of Baratric Medicine doesn't appear to be one of the tens of thousands of journals indexed by PubMed.Gov, which is a sign that it is not considered very important.
It would be comical if it wasn't so tragic, but many of the results on the first page of Google for "American Journal of Bariatric Medicine" are related to this two-page "study" from 2011. (We'll find out why I included the quotes when I get to the study itself). There's no Wikipedia page for the journal and best I can tell it has no Impact Factor rating at all. The top result in Google points to the American Society of Bariatric Physicians and the site doesn't seem to make mention of the American Journal of Bariatric Medicine at all. To make sure I'm not missing something, I did a Google search just of the ASBP.org to see if the website mentions the journal at all. The only result is the home page of ASBP.org, which again doesn't seem to mention the journal.
I did a Google image search of "American Journal of Bariatric Medicine" to see if I could find any covers other than the issue with the Xocai "study" in it. I couldn't find any.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but it is almost like this is a ghost journal.
After much searching, I've finally found something helpful: "The American Journal of Bariatric Medicine, The Bariatrician is a color scientific publication distributed twice a year to ASBP members and subscribers." No wonder why it is so hard it is to find, it's rarely distributed to a select very few people.
Having solved that mystery, it's time to analyze the study itself. I'm going to assume that you've read the PDF copy of the study available here.
When I was in the 5th grade I learned about controlled, dependent, and independent variables. The article designed for children's science fair projects even covers it:
"These changing quantities are called variables. A variable is any factor, trait, or condition that can exist in differing amounts or types. An experiment usually has three kinds of variables: independent, dependent, and controlled.
The independent variable is the one that is changed by the scientist. To insure a fair test, a good experiment has only one independent variable. As the scientist changes the independent variable, he or she observes what happens.
The scientist focuses his or her observations on the dependent variable to see how it responds to the change made to the independent variable. The new value of the dependent variable is caused by and depends on the value of the independent variable.
For example, if you open a faucet (the independent variable), the quantity of water flowing (dependent variable) changes in response--you observe that the water flow increases. The number of dependent variables in an experiment varies, but there is often more than one.
Experiments also have controlled variables. Controlled variables are quantities that a scientist wants to remain constant, and he must observe them as carefully as the dependent variables. For example, if we want to measure how much water flow increases when we open a faucet, it is important to make sure that the water pressure (the controlled variable) is held constant. That's because both the water pressure and the opening of a faucet have an impact on how much water flows. If we change both of them at the same time, we can't be sure how much of the change in water flow is because of the faucet opening and how much because of the water pressure. In other words, it would not be a fair test. Most experiments have more than one controlled variable. Some people refer to controlled variables as 'constant variables.'"
If you've read the Xocai study by now, you'll realize that there are many variables and that they aren't properly controlled. The most obvious failure is "monetary rewards were given to the winners of the group." In short, they are going to give money to motivate people to lose weight. Why introduce this variable? Like the change in the water flow above, this experiment is flawed because we don't know if weight loss is caused by the meal replacement or by the financial rewards. We know that paying people lose weight works... I wrote about it back in 2010, when there was an article about it in Time Magazine.
The question is whether the high antioxidant meal replacement did anything. We can't know because it isn't a fair test of the meal replacement. Maybe the people would have gained weight on the meal replacement if they weren't financially motivated.
Furthermore, there's no evidence that high antioxidant content in the meal replacements lead to weight loss. Perhaps people would have lost weight eating Twinkies. Don't laugh, a nutrition professor lost 27 pounds on a Twinkie diet.
Let's not forget that people were encouraged to exercise which obviously plays a role in weight loss. They also had weekly support calls, which is yet another variable that has been known to contribute to weight loss.
In the end, they combined several variables well-known to help people lose weight (calorie control, exercise, monetary rewards, regular support check-ins) with one variable that isn't shown to help people lose weight - the amount of antioxidants in a meal replacement. The results of the study are unsurprising... people lost weight.
It should come as no surprise that Xocai took credit for the weight loss:
"A recent study has found that overweight or obese individuals who consumed an antioxidant-rich, raw-cocoa based meal-replacement shake over a twelve-week span were able to lose significant weight. The study is the first of its kind to comprehensively show that a high-antioxidant diet, particularly one featuring unprocessed cocoa, can effectively help promote healthy weight loss."
Worse were the comments from Machiel Kennedy in that press release:
"Few studies have specifically investigated the association of high-antioxidant foods such as raw cocoa with safe and effective weight control. Our study is the first to truly examine this relationship, and its findings were very pronounced... The powerful antioxidant and anti-inflammatory effects of high-antioxidant meal-replacement shake clearly played a significant role in the weight loss benefits seen by the study participants. The results were very impressive, and perhaps enhance our understanding of the wide ranging health benefits of cocoa."
The problem is that this study didn't investigate the association of high-antioxidant foods in helping to control weight. Kennedy is exactly wrong. There was no indication at all that a high-antioxidant shake played any role at all in the weight loss benefits seen by the study participants.
In the end, you have:
- A study that a 5th grader could tell you was so poorly designed that no reliable conclusions could be made
- At least one author (Warren) who appears to have a clear Xocai bias which he doesn't seem to have disclosed
- A journal that has zero impact on the medical and scientific community
It should be clear why they couldn't get the study published in any of the tens of thousands of journals that are peer-reviewed and have a shred of significance in the scientific community.
If Xocai were a reputable company it seems they'd want to distance themselves from this "study", not promote it.
Xocai's "Healthy Chocolate" Patent
The other item in Xocai's store is the second one: "Xoçai secures patent for 'Healthy Chocolate'."
I was curious how Xocai got a patent on a phrase. I've always known that to be a trademark. And, of course, when I click through to the press release they acknowledge that is a trademark. I consider this just another example showing that the people running the company don't a clue what they are writing about.
Other than the patent/trademark mix-up, my response to this piece of "news" is "Meh". If I really cared to about marketing I might call myself "The Blogger King" and apply for that trademark. I would probably be able to get it if I showed I that used the term a ton before anyone else. It wouldn't mean that I'm actually a king or a very good blogger at all.
That's the big takeaway, trademarks are essentially for marketing. The patent and trademark office does not test products to see if it delivers what the company is marketing. In fact here are some ridiculous patents that Business Week found.
So again, Xocai is 2 for 2 on their store page with their marketing being misleading. In fairness, the journal article is much more misleading than a "healthy chocolate." However, I've caught their sales-force using the "healthy chocolate" term as if it was reputable because it comes with the "backing" from US Patent Office. I like to call this a P.T. Barnum argument, "There's a sucker born every minute".
It's a shame that they don't have anything else for me on this store page to analyze. In the 18 months since I last looked into the company, I expected them to come up with something new.
The most important takeaway here is that if you see a Xocai distributor promoting the bariatric "study" and the "healthy chocolate" patent/trademark, you now know that he is full of bovine excrement (i.e. BS).
What do Health Experts Say?
Typically the doctors/scientists/researchers are not concerned in evaluating specific brand-name supplements that make grandiose claims. It's easy to claim something, but it is much more difficult to prove a product works by getting it approved by the FDA for a medical condition. Many people erroneously believe that supplements can't be approved by the FDA for diseases, but most people know that calcium and vitamin D are approved to make claims about osteoporosis.
However, Dr. Jonny Bowden published an article on the Huffington Post, specifically covering the phenomena of these MLM products "working." Specifically, he writes:
"New Rules: No More Claiming Mona Vie Cures Cancer! Nor, for that matter, AIDS. Nor lupus, GERD, acne, age spots, arthritis, a balding scalp or sagging libido. Nope. Sorry. And lest you think I'm picking on poor MonaVie, the same is true of Xango, Mangosteen, Xocai, Tahitian Noni, and all the other ridiculously overpriced and oversold juices promoted by scientifically illiterate multi-level marketing 'distributors' who repeat these claims with the sincerity and earnestness of a Kucinich volunteer."
As the good doctor points out, ORAC scores easily manipulated... and after a certain amount are not useful. I see it like someone saying that they'll give me 35 gallons of gas for the price of 17. My car's gas tank is only 15 gallons, so the rest is wasted. More is not necessarily better, though for marketers, more is always impressive. We are smarter than that aren't we?
This article is from 2008 and more than 6 years later, I don't see MXI Corp (parent company of Xocai) arguing his reputable analysis in any way.
Perhaps more importantly the USDA has removed its database of ORAC stating:
"Recently the USDA's Nutrient Data Laboratory (NDL) removed the USDA ORAC Database for Selected Foods from the NDL website due to mounting evidence that the values indicating antioxidant capacity have no relevance to the effects of specific bioactive compounds, including polyphenols on human health...
ORAC values are routinely misused by food and dietary supplement manufacturing companies to promote their products and by consumers to guide their food and dietary supplement choices...
The data for antioxidant capacity of foods generated by in vitro (test-tube) methods cannot be extrapolated to in vivo (human) effects and the clinical trials to test benefits of dietary antioxidants have produced mixed results."
Thus we can safely throw out the notion that ORAC scores are meaningful. To take it a step further, if a Xocai is touting ORAC scores, they would appear to be either poorly educated about how useless they are or misusing them to promote Xocai as the USDA found.
Does Xocai "Work?"
To all the Xocai distributors making claims that the chocolate cured [X] and aided with [Y] medical conditions, I refer back to Dr. Bowden analysis above. You see these claims with dozens of MLM health products, so unless the distribution system is a medical cure, it simply doesn't make any logical sense. I wrote an article detailing why people think their MLM health product "works" and a group of doctors, scientists, and researchers found it so impressive, they've asked if they can republish it on their site which you can find here. I try not bill myself as an expert and let my arguments stand on their own strength, but when unbiased doctors publish those arguments... well you know they must be pretty good.
Xocai is a Dangerous Cult?
There's no shortage of people comparing MLM to cults. Here are some examples of those people.
However, there appears to be much darker story with Xocai. The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry has a very enlightening article on Xocai. It covers most of the misleading marketing and such here, but goes further by noting an huge incident in Norway. A blogger wrote an article exposing Xocai as a scam (probably not too much different than this one) and a group of Xocai members threatened him and his family in an attempt to "stop the attacks on Xocai."
This is similar to the times I have been threatened by MLMers when expose their scams.
I'd like to think that any level-headed person would understand that it is not okay to threaten people's lives over small pieces of chocolate. You don't see this criminal harassment over Hershey Kisses. Lest you think I'm short-changing Xocai's "healthy" message by comparing it to Hershey Kisses, this kind of harassment doesn't happen with blueberries either. It happens when people make logical arguments to show the world why MLM is a scam.
A reputable company would realize that they played a central role in creating this angry mob. If a reputable company had a reputable product that they could sell any other way they would make the right choice and do it. The fact that Xocai hasn't taken action to sever ties with its MLM distribution system is further evidence to me it isn't reputable.
Is Xocai a Scam?
I like to end these articles by noting that "scam" means different things to different people. In my context, I like to use Wikipedia's definition of redirecting "scam" to its "confidence trick" entry.
I don't know any way other than scam to describe Xocai's press release that focused on the "high-antioxidants" being a factor in the "study." They antioxidants seem to be nothing more than a bystander to the multitude of other weight-loss tactics used in the study. It's not like Hostess put out a press release that Twinkies/sugar is considered a promising weight-loss tactic. As best I can tell, that's what Xocai did, but worse, since they funded the study in various ways (the financial rewards, the product, the co-author, etc.)
There is a lot more that can be written about Xocai. I often do a cost analysis of an MLM product to show how ridiculously expensive it is. I also often show that very few people make the big money using the company's own Income Disclosure Statement. For example, one I could find was from 2010 (PDF) and it clearly shows anyone making more than 10K is in the "<1%" range, which is a little like saying that less than 1% win the lottery or less than 1% of people have a billion dollars. While both statements would be true, they don't accurate portray exactly how rare such things are. Also one shouldn't miss the small print which says that these abysmal numbers are for those who have sponsored two people. The people who have been trying to recruit people for a year and only got one person or no one don't show up. Imagine how bad the numbers would look if they included all these people instead of the "successful" ones. And the numbers get worse still when you factor in the expenses necessary to run the business. However, at over 3000 words, I've already sufficiently beat a dead horse without going into that level of detail. Update: It looks like the Washington Post has a great article on MXI. It's almost hard to not quote the whole thing. Here are a few of the highlights:
- A distributor has been in MLM for 3 decades with 16 MLM companies: "He lost a little bit of money every time, but he convinced himself that he just hadn't put in the work. This time, he was committed."
- His "commitment" to Xocai resulted in losing $100,000 in 5 years
- The article also states: "He and the other salespeople deluded one another into thinking they were all on the point of becoming fabulously wealthy, he said. 'Eventually, you come to realize: There's something really wrong here, and I just can't keep lying to people. Everybody's lying to each other.'"
- He started telling everyone he knew that MXI's probiotic chocolate had cured his acid reflux. "There's something that happens to you, where you start to believe your own" sales pitch, he said, using an obscenity. This is proof positive of the illegal medical claims that come from these companies: as I've written about here. Not only that, but it is cognitive dissonance at its finest.
In short, it covers some of the big problems with MLM in general. Once again, if the company or products could exist with a more legitimate business model that doesn't victimize distributors, you would think it would immediately use it.
Xocai... and focuses on:
70 Responses to "Is Xocai a Scam?"
Why have the companies you mention and others like Nuskin, Amway, Mannatech, Juice Plus and many others not been shut down long ago? There are 100s of successful network marketing companies and the industry has been around for more than 50 years. Robert Kiyosaki is a well respected business educator, he and others say network marketing is the business of the 21st century.
Network Marketing is really just a different distribution stream delivering products to consumers directly rather than many levels of middle people that traditional methods use. They legitimately sell products to the end user and often MLM products are better because it is word of mouth advertising which comes at no direct $$ cost – more money for product development. Actually many traditional companies do use this type of marketing and give bonuses to those who refer people to their company. Why? Because they know people buy from people they know and trust. And that's why direct marketing is so powerful and here to stay.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I usually don't respond to these type of blogs. Everybody appears to be an expert even if they are not. I am realistic enough to know that I'm not going to convince anybody to my point of view. However, I will add this.
Yes there are a few bad MLM companies out there that give the profession a bad name, Visalus is one of them and I don't expect them to be around very long with Blyth at the helm. That said, there are many traditional companies/industries that also have a structure in the shape of a pyramid that have lost their way. One example – Aspertaime is poison and yet it is still on the market with no signs it will be removed.
Thanks for updating me on Robert K. I know a lot of people who did Amway, none of them made any money. I know others that did Nuskin and made a lot of money. Not all comp plans are good ones.
It would seem apparent that the Lazy Man doesn't like the direct marketing opportunity for hard working people to have their own business with very low overhead and all of the tax advantages of the big guys. I am fortunate to be involved with a 7 year old company that has unique products, a customer base, one of the top comp plans and direct clinical studies published in a medical journal. We don't have to make any false claims because the ingredients are proven by 1000s of scientific studies worldwide.
I think the industry is going strong with the best products you can buy anywhere. Products can be easily evaluated, (plus there is a label) most people are smart and discerning about products and by trying a product are able to decide for themselves whether a product is good or not.
One more thing – Lazy Man says: "I don't know of a single furniture MLM company. The appliances in my kitchen are not made by any MLM company. The list goes on."
Really furniture! That's because most successful NWM companies focus on consumables. Products that people are already using and buy over and over.
Like I said you'll never know if a product works if you don't try it for yourself. Dr. Bowden is one source and we can find one source to support any point of view. We have learned from others that high ORAC works – at least 200,000+ per day. It is scientifically proven that we need antioxidants for good health and chocolate just happens to be a good delivery to the cells. At least our company tests the products with published results from an independent laboratory. No other company does that. Actually more important than the ORAC score are the flavanols. We test for that too. Trader Joe's has some good products but they don't test for antioxidant content.
As for the study yes it is a lifestyle study and the lead doctor on the study is a bariatric specialist on the national board of bariatrics and not related to MXI. I know many who were on the study. Many of them gave up on dieting. It is about a lifestyle change not just a diet – using the high-antioxidant meal replacement, exercise, water, support. It is about keeping the weight off and at least 75% have kept the weight off after over 2 years. Why, because it is an easy program. Most well known weight loss programs have about a 3% success in maintaining weight loss. How about the fact that all 50 participants finished the 3 month study. That is unheard of in any kind of study. You can call it a sham but these are real people who got results they were unable to get elsewhere.
Finally, according to your logic because a product is distributed through network marketing it is a bad product.
One more thing about MXI the company that developed Xocai. Their previous highly successful company Pure Delite marketed sugar free chocolate products through retail – Walmart, Walgreens and many other familiar store chains. That company was closed when the low carb industry lost its edge. They developed this product because cardiologists were still asking for the PD product because it helped their heart patients. All those stores wanted the new Xocai product, which would have been easier for MXI because they were already set up in the retail chain. They choose MLM as a better way to market. So does that make Pure Delite good and Xocai bad because of it's marketing structure? I should think marketing has nothing to do with weather a product is good or bad.
You get what you pay for and quality is something missing in your flat earth discourse. GNC – a successful company that markets low quality ingredient products. Slate Magazine, now there is an important, scientific source, since science seems so important to you. Placebos actually do work. Here is one example, of many http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120910152011.htm Incidentally, antioxidants are not placebos and not controversial. Science clearly shows that antioxidants heal cells by neutralizing free radicals. Here are 3 examples:
http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/how-antioxidants-work1 alue?
There you go again making statements you know nothing about! You stated, "If they (Xocai) could have got the products in Walmart, Walgreens, etc. they would have." Of course you don't know that and nothing could be further from the truth because some products need education about why they are different. I know MXI and everything you have stated about Xocai is 100% false so I'll skip any fake evaluation that may be forthcoming. For one thing they don't have any doctors who are employees. And, your statement about a laughable scientific publication that did the weight loss study. They actually have a peer review process. You have no scientific background and no peer review. Just your misguided opinion about some quality products. Anyone can find an example to support a point of view. Are we suppose to take your word as fact, someone with at least 3 online identities? It is all about trust and following the lazydude is like whack-a-mole, the minute you are seen, you disappear and pop up out of a different hole with a new name.
What goes around comes around and one day you will go to far with your vicious blogs. My guess is the only reason you are against MLMs is that you failed to be successful in one. And now you make money putting them down every which possible with advertising on your phony blog.
Over and Out!
Of course I don't expect to convince you of anything, Cory, Vogel, Lazy Man or whoever you are? Believe it or not there is value in knowing who is giving information. Are they trustworthy. As for quality – We like to say there is expensive chocolate, cheap chocolate and valuable chocolate. We have the latter. In fact if I hadn't actually received personal benefits I couldn't promote the product. It isn't about a company selling me a bill of goods and me buying it all hook line and sinker. I experienced it for myself. There is integrity here, something you seem not to have considered in your monologue. You obviously have no interest in adding anything of much importance to any conversation. Just you biased opinion that keeps the controversy going and the advertising $$ coming in.
Paul, his article is only making one point, that Visalus is a pyramid scheme. It requires it's employees to buy it's product and recruit others to buy or sell it. That is illegal whether the product is effective or not.
You have made your self importance quite clear. However, I am trusting others including world renowned economist Paul Zane Pilzer author of "The Wellness Revolution", who stated, Science is making great breakthroughs in wellness and there are a handful of amazing patented scientific products being sold via network marking companies. Further he states, in this decade $1 trillion of the US economy will be devoted to the wellness industry. These kinds of products are marketed through MLM because it is a growing industry and to your point the furniture and refrigerator industry are not growing. He predicts there will be 3.6 million new millionaires in the next 5 years and they will do it in wellness and network marketing. There are other highly respected business professionals and authors like Brian Tracy, John Maxwell, Tony Robbins who are proponents of the profession.
Your post, "Your MLM health product doesn't work." Question is do you think any health product works? The psychological phenomena, you write, is why these products work yet you also write the placebo effect doesn't work. It looks like you want it both ways. Okay, taking a step back, the common effect in all those companies you mentioned is not any specific ingredient(s) but antioxidants. That is the common thread and there must be something to antioxidants or so many retail companies wouldn't be advertising on television and elsewhere that their products have the most. The fact is people want to be healthy and well and the old ways just are not working.
As for chocolate and health benefits there are now over 6000 studies on chocolate. It doesn't follow that the scientific studies would continue if the results were bad. And those studies are not done with Hershey chocolate and the like but the real thing, non alkalized with nothing added (like waxes and fillers) and with the health promoting cocoa butter, products that for the most part are very bitter. There is an old saying, "We are what you eat". Xocai products are just pure food processed in a natural way to make them taste good. MXI has a couple of important government consumer recognitions – 1) A patent on the cold-press process which maintains all of the antioxidants and 2) Healthy Chocolate® is a registered trademark of the company. Xocai products are not expensive compared to other high end Belgian chocolate and companies like Godiva and Schraffen Berger.
You write about different ingredients without any consideration about quality. Getting the most value for your dollar could end up being a waste of money all together, when it comes to vitamins and minerals. You are suggesting buying separate products instead of one with everything in it. But if those products don't deliver nutrients to the cellular level, what good are they? Synthetic vitamins like Centrum will end up in the toilet because the body doesn't recognize them as anything useful. So what you will have is expensive urine. Low quality protein from Costless doesn't make sense and Metamucil is a temporary solution, not meant to be taken on an ongoing basis for fiber needs. There are many considerations to consider. Most worthwhile products are formulated by food scientists to work together.
Further, the explanation you made to That Guy, about what is and what is not a meal replacement is ill-informed. Using your logic, a meal is based on calories. How about protein, vitamins, minerals, fiber and again the quality of those ingredients. Instead of a 90 cal. Vi Shake or 190 cal. Xocai Meal Replacement Shake (yes meal replacement) I could get a 2010 cal. Cold Stone PB & C shake to get a meal replacement. Of course along with that I get 131g of fat, 89g of carbs and 153g of sugar. Now there is a meal replacement, actually 2 or 3.
MLM is just a better distribution model, with one middle man, as opposed to multi middle men in the so called traditional distribution channels. Amazon is an example of a level, in a multi level distribution chain. The lazyman seems to just wants to send all the money to the middle companies, advertising agencies, television networks, print media and multinational corporations. It is not possible to become financially independent working a normal 8 to 5 job. The beauty of MLM is low start up, low overhead, no inventory requirement and tax savings like large companies. The best of these MLM companies are well organized with training, support, promo materials, websites and everything a person needs to be successful in network marketing.
Unfortunately, what you write is one sided, behind the times and not balanced. If the MLM industry was so prevalent with illegal pyramid schemes it would have been shut down long ago by one of your favorite trusted agencies, the FTC. The MXI compensation is well within the FTC guidelines with a large customer base and money being distributed throughout the plan, not just at the top levels. So maybe it is one of the good one's!
Albert Einstein said, "Logic will get you from A to B, imagination will get you everywhere" which means being open to new ways of doing things. Just because we have always done it this way doesn't mean it's the best way. The world is in motion and there will always be new technologies, scientific breakthroughs and better ways of distributing things.
Paul said "MLM is just a better distribution model"
Agree, it's a most excellent distribution model–for MLM companies.
They are kinda genius. Evil, but genius. The only thing they really have to spend money on is cultivating belief. Belief that people can earn some side money, or get rich, if they just follow the MLM's "proven system"–which they are so, so happy to sell you. Hey, it's all about helping people! We're saving the world from obesity/heart disease/cancer/mediocrity/having friendships not based on selling overpriced crap.
Oh, that income disclosure showing 99% won't actually make money after the expenses of our "proven system"? You can just ignore it, those 99% were lazy losers unlike you, you're willing to go "all in!" And really work for it. Don't ever give up and you can't fail! Ignore the fact that all the people you managed to recruit quit within six months, you'll find more, approach people at the store, in parking lots, everyone wants to sign up! And just keep giving us money, money, money–you'll be a success!
MLM companies don't need to spend much money on product development because their real product is the dream of financial freedom and the belief it can be obtained through MLM, so they put on lots of dog and pony shows–conventions and meetings. Emotional manipulation and fake credibility are cheap, cheap. They don't spend much on advertising because their believers will do it for them, what money they do spend on this area is solely focused on promoting becoming a distributor, not their products. Because that IS their product. They make money hand over fist because their expenditures are so low, while their distributors pay and pay, paying for hope.
MLM distribution is a most excellent deal for MLM companies. For distributors, yeah, not so much.
Not sure where to start but here we go!
-Correcting the record-
Paul Zane Pilzer originally from New York, educated and spent much of his career in the east, now lives in Utah. Apparently that makes him guilty of something. Since wikipedia is open source anybody can be on Wikipedia and probably not all that important in the scheme of things since anybody can edit content. The reality, he is an important American economist, New York Times best-selling author, and entrepreneur. He was an advisor in two U.S. Presidential administrations. He received his M.B.A. from Wharton Graduate Business School at age twenty-two. At age twenty-four, appointed a professor at New York University. The youngest officer and VP while at Citibank. He testified before Congress, warning that the S & L problem would grow to a $200 billion-dollar disaster. Congress didn't listen, and in 1989 Pilzer wrote Other People's Money, which was critically acclaimed by The New York Times. It appears he is very important.
John Maxwell is a New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Business Week best-selling author and has sold almost 20 million books. His books are not focused only on a direct marketing audience.
– Since you didn't like my last list, let's see who else supports MLM –
Tom Peters, the legendary management expert and author of the classic best-seller "In Search of Excellence" (often tagged as the best business book ever), describes network marketing as "the first truly revolutionary shift in marketing in the last 50 years."
Bill Gates said, If I were to start my career all over again, I would choose Network Marketing.
Steven Covey's "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" still ranked in the top 100 at 75 on Amazon. He also authored, "The 7 Habits of highly effective Network Marketers." Oops, he was from Utah!
Sandy Botkin – Tax Expert "A network marketing business can result in tax savings of $3,000 to $9,000 per year."
Richard Branson said Mediocrity won't change the world. The education and training to build an incredibly lucrative and joy-filled business is readily available. He says, push through your perceived limits, delegate & empower people, surround yourself with people you trust, take really good care of your customers, build your brand, have fun while building your business. If you don't take risks you won't achieve anything.
You used Warren Buffet as an example of someone who wants to pay people less than minimum wage. The facts is that he is less interested in taking advantage of people and more interested in empowering them. He thinks his own taxes are too low. He has said that conventional advertising is losing its punch and amongst other things, Network Marketing is the perfect way to reach more people.
Network Marketing is taught in more than 200 colleges including Harvard Business School. Harvard Business School developed three criteria that a network marketing company must meet in order to make it a most desirable opportunity. They are:
1. The company should be at least 18 months old as 90% of all network marketing companies that fail do so in the first 18 months.
2.The company should have a product which is unique and highly consumable, unique in this case means that you have an exclusive product that can only be purchased from your company's distributors.
3. It needs to be a "ground floor" opportunity and in order for the opportunity to qualify as "ground floor" the number of existing active distributors should be less than 1% of the population. In the United States this figure is equal to 1.5 million people.
MLM is no different than any business, you have to stick with it, unfortunately most people don't because they think it is a get rich quick scheme. It is not a gold rush and like any business it takes time. More than 90% of all businesses fail, no matter the distribution model. In any business it takes several years before you make money and you do have to take action and actually do something.
MLM is, leveraged income, and the model corporations use. It is exactly what Bill Gates did to make his fortune when Microsoft was at it's peak with 72,000 employees. Leveraged income is the income derived from the efforts of others. Unfortunately the majority of people in the world today earn a linear income, which basically means that they trade their time for money and unfortunately no matter how high their hourly rate or salary, they are still restricted to only 24 hours in a day and therefore a limited earning potential, as in an 8 – 5 job. Leverage, allows people to use the time and efforts of others to create an income. So it is highly unlikly to become financially independent working 8 – 5.
– More apples and oranges comparisons –
Morphine is a drug. Drugs don't heal anything and are not to be taken on an ongoing basis. Drugs are free radicals. Of course they have a place and are necessary for medical uses. Unfortunately they don't heal us.
What do athletic team makeups have to do with nutrition. I guess you are saying a Happy Meal is a complete nutritious meal. Ever heard of empty calories or see the film "Super Size Me". Yes calories are part of the meal equation but there is more. According to WebMD you are looking at a minimum of 220 calories, 10-15 grams of protein, less than 5 grams of fat, 3-5 grams of fiber, and a third of daily vitamins and minerals per serving for a meal to be healthy and balanced. The one thing about your basketball analogy that might make sense is that those other 4 players to complete the team are equivalent to those 4 other requirements to make a meal complete.
"If a thief steals an old lady's purse". Wow that is some statement. People are making choices not having their wallets stolen. They have a choice to do a business and/or buy a product. If they don't like either they will stop and buy something else. If I don't like Ocean Spray cranberry I can buy a different brand. Incidentally, Ocean Spray happens to be one of those companies claiming antioxidants. Again, it is proven that antioxidant work otherwise so many companies would not advertise that they do and be able to make such a claim.
First is was furniture, then refrigerators and now liquor – how bizarre are those as ideas for MLMs. I don't see those as passing the Harvard test as a viable MLM.
Trademarking "Lazy Website" would mean nothing, except to you. Trademarking "Healthy Chocolate®" is everything in terms of marketing. I'll bet there are a lot of chocolate companies that would like to have it. Not as easy as you claim, this one took 4 years to get.
Actually you can buy directly from the Xocai website, like Amazon. In fact they use the Amazon open source software. I am a big fan of Amazon, still it is a retailer with multi-levels of distribution, as previously described. For me there is room for the affiliate model and all the other marketing models.
Remember those 6000 studies, many of them say chocolate improves cardiovascular disease. Here is one article the Cleveland Clinic http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/prevention/nutrition/chocolate.aspx and this one http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070311202024.htm citing a 40 year study by Norman Hollenberg, professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. Because of studies there is a lot we can say that is legal. Food is medicine. Consider that more than 700,000 people die every year unnecessarily, from complications in the medical industry. People are searching for something better and the reason why the wellness industry is growing.
Centrum and the like – Whole food vitamins are better than synthetic as this common sense article says http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/01/19/whole-food-supplements.aspx and this one http://doctorjames.wordpress.com/2008/02/21/synthetic-vitamins-vs-whole-food-supplements/
I'm not a fan of the MLM juice companies for a business opportunity, there is nothing different about them and you can't tell one from another. I don't know what other MLM companies spend on product development. I do know that MXI spent $11 million on the cold press process and the patent to protect it. They continue to develop new products, are a privately held debt free company, make well thought out decisions and are not beholden to investors or share holders. What I like about Xocai is that it isn't another "me too" product. Xocai is to the wellness industry what Apple is to the electronics industry, it in an innovative company. in Steve Jobs words,"Innovation distinguishes between a leader and a follower." Xocai created Healthy Chocolate® when no one thought it important, now everyone is talking about it.
Good news, your objections will only make me a better marketer of a great product. So thanks for that. Bad news, this isn't a discussion, but mostly a shoveling of senseless lopsided information about the network marketing profession and related topics; then me correcting the record. Unfortunately, nothing positive is happening here.
Unbiased? You are biased by your own admission. Maybe I finally got it right. Otherwise why would you censored out my entire last post? Maybe you just can't cope with that much positive info and so many prominent people supporting the MLM industry. FraudMan would be a better pseudonym for your blog.
Your lame pitch might work in a controlled setting like a product party in your home, with uneducated attendees…but you'll need to do better than rehashing old, disproven MLM claims if you hope to wield any credibility here.
From the outset, your condescending tone and sales pitch delivery was suspect. Once you started using proven lies as your support, it was pretty clear you were running from a script, and had no actual clue what you were saying. Lazy Man did a great job cutting up every one of your claims.
Thanks for bearing the watermark of chest puffery and ignorance that all MLM scammers seem to bear. Those watermarks make it possible for thinking people to disregard what you say as fiction, and reinforces everything that Lazy Man has been saying about your style of business.
Paul Zane Pilzer was adviser to not 1 but 2 U.S. Presidents, which seems more important than any book sales ranking on Amazon. This is not a popularity contest.
Actually there is a huge difference in the quality of vitamins. I've heard the argument for years that chemical vitamins are the same as natural, but synthetic vitamins do not have the trace minerals and other nutrients that the body utilizes and are not measurable. Following your example of Vitamin C – a label says vitamin C, but you have no idea of the quality of its ingredients. The quality can vary greatly. A better quality ingredient can make a product a 1000 percent more effective.
If you investigate chocolate you will find that it is one of the most complex foods with more than 300 compounds. That may be why it is so effective in the world is exploding with excitement about it. I have seen people get off of some of those devastating meds, with the approval and in co-ordination with their doctor, just by eating chocolate. Meds that the FDA approves, with side effects longer than your arm, including possible instant death. With reference to 700,000 unnecessary deaths, there is this thing called, common knowledge, where a reference isn't necessary. That figure was conservative.
As for "Healthy Chocolate" here are two products that are sold as such – Cocovia and Hershey's Special Dark.
Yes, "Ocean Spray claims antioxidants" the definition of an antioxidant is a substance, that counteracts the damaging effects of oxidation in a living organism. It is implied that their Ocean Spray product does exactly that. I also said medicine has a place and is necessary for temporary medical uses. Of course you need something to correct your child's diaper rash however, you could probably find something at a health store that would be equally effective for that. In any case that is a temporary solution. There was a time when prescriptions were prescribed for short periods to correct a condition. Now, left of the drug companies they would have us take multiple drugs for the rest of her life. This is the sickness industry, in the business of selling drugs. Yes believe it or not drugs are oxidants. Antioxidants are proven to give humans better health.
I never said healthy chocolate cured anything. Healthy food improves our immune system. If you give the body what it needs it will heal itself, we don't get sick as often and when we do, it is minimized.
Chocolate is not a fad and it isn't hard to find studies that prove chocolate is health promoting. Here are a few added to the previously list. From the British Medical Journal, "Diet is one of the key lifestyle factors involved in the genesis, prevention, and control of cardiometabolic disorders. Cocoa products containing flavonol have been shown to have an encouraging potential to help prevent cardiometabolic disorders."
Flavonals are the key and chocolate is rated higher than any other food. However, most chocolate is cooked at extremely high temperatures loosing 70-80% of the flavonals.
11 reasons chocolate is good for your health
Here is one that shows your Red wine and dark chocolate may prevent Cancer.
Here are a few more:
I guess Bill Gates should have stayed. Microsoft is not the company it once was and has lost it's edge to "innovation" elsewhere.
I'm personally not very interested in any other network marketing companies as a business, Visalus, any vitamin or juice companies, because you can't tell one from another. They are all "me too" products with nothing original. I like MXI because they are debt free, put major resources into R & D, have previously experience in retail and MLM, have developed a top comp plan that favors distributors. I know you don't believe it, but MXI chose MLM for a reason. It is education about a product that has a story to tell that sitting on a Walmart skew no-one would hear. If that is a script then so be it – I own it!
I know you think you know everything about everything. However, most MLM companies are not debt-free, in fact most have investors to get started and operate. Of course they want their money back sooner than later. Public companies are better than private companies? Then how about the mess that Visalus and Blyth are in with an FTC investigation of possible investor fraud. I think I'll stick with a privately held company that I know quite thoroughly and unfortunately, you know very little. If they do go public, I'm all in!
Also, since you are giving advise on protein shakes and diets. Did you know that the body can only utilize around 20g of protein in a meal? Muscle Milk? Now there is a product with enough calories, however it has inferior ingredients and concerning side effects. There is another old saying, "you get what you pay for". I'll bet if it were delivered through a network you wouldn't be recommending it.
Since you are completely biased against network marketing why would anyone who is looking for truthful information be interested in your opinions? To say all mlm companies are terrible is dishonest. Nothing is, all bad.
Unfortunately, blogs make anyone an expert, even when they are not. I see Silo has drunk the Coolaid!
It is quite obvious from your statements you know very little about nutrition and how vitamins and minerals are delivered to the body. Lazyman said, "If you investigate chocolate cake, you'll find it has all the ingredients of chocolate, plus a few additional ones". Really? Chocolate cake has, besides overly processed chocolate, unhealthy fat and the most notable additional ingredient is refined sugar which by some standards is poison. Of course there are well funded lobbies that keep unhealthy products on the market.
The compounds in chocolate are well documented and another case of trace vitamins minerals that are actually delivered to the cells because food works better that pills. If I buy a trace mineral supplement it is most likely going to end up in the toilet.
There you go again misquoting my message. I never said the body needs chocolate to heal itself. I said we need antioxidants to be healthy, there is a difference. There are many ways to get them. Antioxidants don't cure anything they help us stay healthy so we don't get sick in the first place. Personally I pay close attention to my health, by eating healthy non GMO foods, taking food based vitamins (not from an MLM company) and yes getting antioxidants/flavonols from healthy chocolate. As for getting off meds, I was giving my personal testimonial having rid myself of meds with the help of my doctors. So it isn't necessary for me to make false claims, it is my successful personal story, my clinical experience. I really don't need you to verify anything for me.
I don't know about other products, I do know about this one and started using it for the health benefits long before I ever considered the business. The products worked for me and I would continue using them even if there wasn't a business involved. I am sharing my truthful story . I wouldn't be able to promote something that didn't work for me. This is referral marketing and it works because people take advise from those they know and trust. Also why banks etc. use it to get new customers, offering a monetary referral bonus if the people you refer open an account.
You are exactly right, chocolate has been around for thousands of years and in ancient times it was used to improve health. In fact it was so valuable only royalty were permitted to have it. It was not dutched, alkalized and roasted cacao like the candy products of today. It was a medicinal bitter drink. It is not more drugs that make us healthy. Although not always possible, most intelligent people are trying get off drugs. Since the FDA is controlled by the drug companies and other corporations it is not a very credible source.
More than 700,000 unnecessary deaths is well documented here http://www.webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf
Lazyman said, "You see how it works now? The formula is easy. Take an ordinary product chocolate, juice, vitamins, etc. change them slightly to make them appear to be better quality. Raise prices through the roof and justify it by pairing it with a business opportunity." That would be dishonest, where is you proof of that statement? And, "Our product is comparable to medicine, even though we can't legally say it." Your deceptive words, not mine.
It comes down to who do you trust, someone who approaches issues like a one note song, playing the same note over and over, or a company you know well. Large corporations in the so called traditional marketing model are constantly being challenged for unfair business practices. Again, I will point out Blyth/Visalus and the investors that have been duped out of their money. I am more likely to trust the people I know personally than some multilayered conglomerate corporate structure that is anyone's guess.
Another old saying, "Jack of all trades and master of none". You claim to be an expert but where is the proof of that. Unfortunately you come across like a cynic. I can only imagine you are a shill being paid by those outside the network marketing industry to debunk it. So really you are the one who is biased. You are in a different place for sure, projecting a scripted, often dishonest, one note message that you play over again and again.
Bottom line is that these products have worked for me and I would use them no matter how they are marketed. I can only account for my personal experience. Yes, this is my clinical experience. I know this product improved my health because I didn't make any other changes in my diet, routine or anything else. I just share my story and people can decide for themselves. I don't need to fabricate anything – just my story and the extensive research on cacao. I am and have not claimed that chocolate cures anything, even though you dishonestly keep trying to say so. Again, not a medical claim, my experience. You or anyone else cannot dispute my experience. I could not in good conscience project phoney information just to make money, as it appears you do in your blogs just to make the advertising dollars. Most people do network marketing everyday they just don't get paid for it. What you do is a form network marketing.
You aren't very convincing or believable because there is no balance in what you write. It is just a monologue of tired old stuff that is often twisted – comparing apples to oranges that doesn't make good common sense. Just because you write a blog does not make you an expert. As I said before a blog makes anyone an expert. Since Amazon rankings are so important to you, 5 of the top 10 books on Amazon are about how to get healthier through wellness programs. Please guide me to your Amazon rankings since this seems to be the number 1 criterion for who is credible.
I have never done network marketing before so I don't know about other companies using MLM for distribution. I love the Xocai product and the results I received from it. Subsequently, I personally checked out MXI Corp before starting to distribute the products – that was 5 years ago. You might consider doing a real investigation of Xocai that happens to distribute it's products through network marketing. From what you have said so far I do not look forward to your fake analysis of an excellent ethical company.
In the end it is all about trust!
You just keep coming back like a "bad Penny" – with a lot of smoke and mirrors and blustering negatively about others to avoid answering the most important question – Who are you and why are you credible? Since you are so selfaggrandizing we would know all of it by now if there was anything to know.
The FTC ruled Amway was is not an illegal pyramid scheme, since then it has been an accepted and well established distribution model. In the 1979 ruling, the Federal Trade Commission found that Amway does not qualify as a pyramid scheme because distributors were not paid to recruit people and had to sell products to get bonus checks, and the company was committed to buying back its distributors' excess inventory.
More from the FTC
Some people confuse pyramid and Ponzi schemes with legitimate multilevel marketing. Multilevel marketing programs are known as MLM's, and unlike pyramid or Ponzi schemes, MLM's have a real product to sell. More importantly, MLM's actually sell their product to members of the general public, without requiring these consumers to pay anything extra or to join the MLM system.
If the FTC would take on a giant like Amway, they would have no problem taking on other companies if they were violating their rules.
Yes Dr. Bowden lists a whole lot of companies but he says "antioxidants are good". No-one is saying chocolate cures cancer, grows hair or anything else. Again my experience cannot be disputed and certainly not by you. It is mine.
I don't need to look beyond this company because I have no plans to be involved with any other company. So no I don't think it would have been wise to spend more time understanding the industry before I jumped in, any more than I would have needed to study, the so called traditional distribution model.
Bernie Madoff seems a poor example. People make informed choices about products and buy through retail or direct marketing. Mr. Madoff didn't have anything to offer except a get rich Ponzi scheme. Network Marketing delivers products and is work just like any other business.
As for retail companies that claim their products work, here are a few.
Still waiting, to hear why you are more credible than the many sources I listed, that rank high on the Amazon sales list – Your criterion, not mine. Now it seems you are distancing yourself from that. Everyone you reference has an educational degree or something that you think makes them an expert. Fair enough. I in fact have listed many well respected authors but you found a way to put them all down as insignificant, one was even too Christian. Nothing is all bad, not even you.
Credibility absolutely comes from who is doing the talking. Your "About page" doesn't tell us anything about you. And Your link to "appeal to accomplishment" doesn't seem to exist. Oops! If you can't give us your real identity maybe you have something to hide. It is TRUST. Warren Buffet said, "In looking for people to hire, you look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy. And if you don't have the first, the other two will kill you. If you hire somebody without [integrity], you really want them to be dumb and lazy." Unfortunately, you fail the Buffet test, missing that first and well "lazy" speaks for itself.
I guess it's a good thing the FTC isn't King. There is this thing, checks and balances that seems to have worked quite well. Apparently the FTC didn't appeal the ruling. So, in the end Amway won and so did network marketing.
I did the research into MXI then I signed on. I looked the owners is the eye and personally heard their vision and what they are about. When it comes to business it isn't just charts and graphs that are important for evaluating a company, it is much much more. Do they have integrity? Are they smart? Are they in it for the long haul? Do they know their industry? (In this case chocolate) Do they have what it takes and the financial resources to get through the hard times? The answer I found is a resounding YES! I believe those that get ahead in this world are those who process and act on information.
Your quote "hundreds of thousands of people defrauded out of hundreds of millions of dollars." sounds familiar and it has nothing to do with network marketing but rather the main stream that is missing those checks and balances.
Since it is just you and me here going is circles, this diatribe you put forth, is a waste of time. What you have been throwing out is your opinions and sterile information, to get a reaction that keeps it all going. If you see yourself as an authority and want to be taken seriously you might consider being honest – People don't buy books by an "anonymous" author.
Don't shoot the messenger buddy! Seemed like Lazyman is the only one offering you free advice here. I bet your chocolate guys have collected quite a few dollars from you in exchange for ways to over come objections and challenge those who would dare to disagree with you using fact based logic.
You can have your own opinion Paul but you can't have your own facts. Lazyman has shot down every BS argument you've put forth and now you're trying to attack him personally. I don't expect you to know this but when you run out if arguments and only have personal attacks left it means you lost.
Looks like Patrick has drunk the Koolaid too. Free advice is everywhere including how to overcome objections. Whether it is useful is another thing. This is not about anyone personally, but rather about twisted information.
Identity is relevant in any discussion if someone wants to be taken seriously. Hitler may have been right, but unfortunately you are saying 2 + 2 = 5 and are following the The Rules of Disinformation to a T in your blog. The "Great Imposter" said and did a lot of things that gave him credibility, at the time. But, was he credible, no of course not. And you have lost credibility bundling all network marketing companies as bad because they are network marketing companies. Weaving, spinning, creating whatever you choose and finding content to back up your opinions. Yes your opinions. Anything can be found to backup a point of view.
I have not changed the subject. I have been very clear why MXI is a stellar company. So there you go again misquoting and putting words into my mouth. You however chose to muddy the waters by bringing in chocolate cake and making this nonsense statement about compounds. "Since chocolate cake includes all the complexity of chocolate, plus additional compounds, you'd have to agree that it is better than chocolate." When referring to compounds it should follow that we are talking about good nutritional properties. So yes I will stick with my statement, "you will find that it is one of the most complex foods with more than 300 compounds." Here is a partial list, Vitamins A, B1, B2, B3, C, E, K, pantothenic acid, Magnesium, Calcium, Potasium, Iron, Chromium, Copper, Phosphorus, Anandamide, Theobromine, Manganese, Zinc, Omega 6 Fatty Acids, PEA, Tryptophan, Serotonin, Selenium, Niacin, Coline….
It has become common knowledge that flavonoid consumption is important for better health and higher in chocolate than any other food. So maybe what large corporate chocolate companies are saying about dark chocolate would be of more interest to you. Mars for example seems to be getting the picture. They said "The truth is, the benefits of chocolate come from cocoa flavanols–not percent cocoa or the darkness of the chocolate." Comparing Mars average values claim of flavonoids to MXI's continual independent testing for levels of flavoniods.
Cocovia 63g dark chocolate bar, 300 cal. 22g fat, 24g sugar = 250mg flavonols
Xocai 6g X Power Square, 33 cal. 2g fat, 2.3g sugar = 744mg flavonols
Maybe you do get what you pay for. Cocovia has about 10 times more of the bad stuff and 1/3 the flavonols.
Ok so there are people using pen names. Mark Twain, George Eliot. Lewis Carroll, George Sand were all pen names but it became their true identity. They were known by those names. Mostly authors writing fiction use pen names, non-fiction not so much.
You missed the point about the banks or rather, banksters. The greed that collapsed the global economy. The multinational corporate structure that manipulates our lives for profit. The losses are staggering and anything that has happened in MLM companies is a pittance in comparison. I don't see anybody in jail or even prosecuted for the lives they ruined. You might want to put your energy there if you want to help everyday people. But, that wouldn't work would it? You need something where controversy can be created driving internet traffic to your sites.
One more thing, consider what Steve Jobs said, "Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma – which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition."
If you haven't come across a good MLM yet then one must assume they are all bad since there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of them out there.
Saying your analogy seems to have worked is twisted. No need to go on, I have already given many examples.
A 1000 mg of vitamin C won't do any good if it goes down the toilet. A complex food like chocolate has many nutritional elements that work together. We know that chocolate provides excellent delivery to the cells so whatever amount there is gets to the cellular level.
Oops my math was off on that one. My Cocovia comparison was comparing chocolate products that you eat which seemed a more reasonable comparison, since most people like to eat chocolate. So an apples to apples comparison of the Cocovia chocolate bar works out like this – 30 cal. 2.2g fat, 2.4g sugar and 25mg of flavonols compared to 523g flavonols for 30g of the Xocai product. That is 20 times more flavonols in the Xocai product with everything else about equal. Cocovia states, "the benefits of chocolate come from cocoa flavanols–not percent cocoa or the darkness of the chocolate." If that is true then there isn't much nutritional value in the Cocovia product. Also, the natural fat in chocolate is cocoa butter consisting of oleic, stearic, and palmitic acids. These are considered healthy fats and at worst neutral. The sugar in the Xocai products is not refined but rather sugar cane juice crystals, which makes it diabetic friendly.
Of course direct marketing companies focus on consumable products rather than products that you might buy a few times in a lifetime. Some of the most successful retail companies sell what consumers buy everyday, like Proctor and Gamble, Kelloggs, General Mills, Cambell's Soup to name only 4. People join MLM companies for many reasons. Most people buy Xocai for the product not the business. I have brought a good ethical company to your attention.
I'll try it again. – Comparing chocolate that you eat from each company – the Cocovia sticks are a beverage the hard chocolate is in the 3rd box on the Cocovia site. To make it an equal comparison I broke it down to about 6g of each product.
Cocovia Dark Bar 6.3g 30 cal. 2.2g fat 2.2g sugar = 25g flavonoids
Xocai 6g X-Power Square, 33 cal. 2g fat, 2.3g sugar = 580g flavonols
Actually I was conservative in the Flavonols statement I made. The Xocai Square is more than 23x higher than an equal amount of the Cocovia bar. Even higher considering the Xocai square is .3g smaller.
As for the bad stuff, most chocolate companies remove the good cacao butter and sell it to the cosmetic industry, where it is in high demand. It is replaced with hydrogenated oils or other fats that aren't good for you.
Whirlpool, GE, Samsung, and GE are those companies that you only buy products from a few times in your lifetime. It is consumables and what better consumable than chocolate. I figure you pay for the antioxidants and the chocolate is free. And I don't think milk would probably work for network marketing. That isn't even a reasonable idea. Product distribution isn't a black and white issue, there isn't just one way to do anything. So it isn't reasonable that there be only one way to distribute products.
Ok so the Cocoavia is a powder. You called it a stick. What do you do with the powder eat it by the spoonful? Sounds tasty, might go really well with your red wine. I do think it is meant to mixed in a liquid no matter how you want to spin it. So we are back to apples and oranges. Incidentally I think you'll find that the Lindt chocolate you like so well is a lot higher in fat, sugar and devoid of any flavonoids. Most chocolate is cooked at extreme temperatures to get rid of the bitterness and therefore destroying the flavonoid content. As stated here in a NYT article, "the very thing that makes chocolate good for you — the antioxidants called flavanols – also make chocolate taste bitter. As a result, confectionery makers often take out the flavanols, stripping the chocolate of its main health-promoting properties." http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/21/the-problem-with-chocolate/ You keep stating 70% is best but that is very controversial as stated earlier and above. And 70% of crap is still crap.
Actually spinach is also very high in flavonoids but you would need to eat a pound a day and how much dried parsley can or would you be able to eat. I think most people would rather eat a little chocolate daily to get their flavonoids.
It appears you are running out of ideas because it is still your same one note out of tune song. So no there won't be a 4th time.
If calories and fat are a concern to you, then you may want to avoid Lindt. Of course you didn't address the good fat in natural chocolate.
I noticed you didn't backup "most studies show only modest benefits from chocolate" There is a reason researchers keep on studying it – it works! And the major point of the NYT article is that most chocolate companies take out what is good for you. Maybe that is the chocolate being used in the studies you are reading.
applesauce and parsley yum sounds delicious. I don't think that will be a big seller.
One more thing you seem to be avoiding – there is more than one way of doing things. I never said MLM is a superior way, only that it is another way. Traditional distribution vs direct marketing. Traditional companies advertise their products in the media, online and infomercials. That is one way of doing it and of course it is legitimate. Network marketing companies generally don't advertise, that is the job of the distributor. Instead of paying the ad agencies and media 50% of their gross income it goes to distributors for educating people about their products, which is another legitimate method to move products. It is very difficult to start a small business today because the big conglomerates make it difficult to compete.
In network marketing the start up costs are very low, there is no insurance, employees, workman's comp, brick and mortar space, utilities, legal fees etc. A direct good marketing company provides training at no cost and because of the internet there is tons of useful information to help people grow a business for free. Online courses, study materials, presentations and interactive web seminars are being used as educational tools. And with the technology everything is calculated for you in a back office that includes a replicating website, if that seems useful, for a very low price. In the case of MXI it is $25 a year. The network marketing is changing the way in which people purchase products and services because it is more efficient. A little scary to status-quo thinkers.
Yes I think you should take a walk because you're not getting anywhere here.
Actually, you were the one to bring up all the bad fat in the Xocai product in the first place.
What does $25 have to do with anyone's job? That is for a robust computer system for a year that tracks everything about your business, so you can do the important things to be profitable. It is part of what makes the system duplicatable. 99% is a stretch, all businesses fail in the 90% range. People fail in this profession because they quit. I had a small business with 20 employees for 20+ years and know how hard it is to succeed in that world.
Low startup is a good thing because you have the potential to start making money sooner. There are no guarantees in any business. It took Amazon 7 years to show a profit, fortunately they had the resources to sustain that long start-up. This business model is the best kept secret that naysayers like you don't want anyone to know about.
Bill Gates said, "As we look ahead into the next century, leaders will be those who empower others." And that is what network marketing is all about. And Socrates said,"The only true wisdom is knowing that you know nothing." Please spare me any advise, Dude.
No I said $25 is what it takes to maintain a back office. Some people are just customers not having any intention of a business. You have no idea the ratio of customers to business builders. So the income disclosure really doesn't give a true picture. The minimum purchase is just the amount of chocolate one or two people are consuming anyway. The average American eats 12 pounds a year. Limited territory is a downside here. Since we don't have brick and mortar businesses Subway next to Subway isn't relevant. We are operating in 40 countries so there no limit where we can operate.
As for business failures according to this study http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/21/your-startup-will-probably-fail_n_1904919.html be a Harvard Professor it is about 75% closer to my 90% quote than your 30%.
Let's not confuse your negative voice with leaders that empower people.
The $25 is like a Costco fee, it maintains the right to shop with Xocai at lower prices. Incidentally, the industry average for retention is 5 – 15%. The retention in Xocai is 60% overall and 90% for those doing the business. I think I trust Harvard and others over SBA which would be biased against MLM. Most sources show 75% and up for business failures.
I'm confused first you said the monthly fee is unreasonable and now you state it "isn't that much". Actually with the yearly fee the chocolate is $110 – $125 plus shipping.
Actually many cats and dogs get along quite well. I don't believe you have proven anything about MLMs in general and nothing you have said applies to MXI. Since there are 190,000 people joining network marketing every month, they must know something you don't know.
And the FTC? If it was all a scam and a pyramid scheme, it would be a scandal everywhere in the news. But fortunately many of these companies are legitimate, are socially responsible and have community outreach programs. Probably unknown to you, many companies actually have the FTC review and pass on their plans and what is said about their products.
True consumer protection comes from non-biased sources. That isn't the case here because nothing is all bad – not even robbers.
I brought up the financial industry previously and you claimed it was for another discussion. Apparently not since have used Fortune Hi-Tech as an example many times of a failed MLM. As for Fortune Hi-Tech, I didn't see it as a scandal of the industry, just one company. The are many companies that get fined and sometimes people are put in jail in the corporate world. You are concerned about one MLM company gone wrong. Yes it is an issue but a literal drop in the bucket in comparison. Corporate fraud is increasing at an alarming rate and has become best practices for many companies. Yet it is of little concern to you. Here are a few links.
In 2012 the Department of Justice's Antitrust Division handed out more than $1.13 billion in criminal fines, a 46% increase over 2011. http://www.foxbusiness.com/government/2012/12/10/businesses-fined-record-amounts-antitrust-penalties/#ixzz2Ohm7SqXR
Network marketing is world wide with less fraud than the traditional corporate world. I'm not worried!
The Lazyman censored my last post more than 6 weeks ago. It looks as though he has given up on Xocai as a "bad" network marketing company.
Check this out – Illegal Pyramids vs. Legal Multilevel Marketing Companies http://youtu.be/DUWmgsgMkPU
Been waiting for more than a year for your article on Xocai. Must be one of the good ones!!
One of your consistent complaints about MLM companies is that, "very few people make the big money using the company's own Income Disclosure Statement".
Isn't that the case in EVERY industry? Aren't most companies in emerging industries (MLM is an emerging industry and business model, relative to traditional methodologies) "also-rans"?
Please find a few more valid complaints and stop rehashing that which does not matter.
Because of the internet the network marketing model of today looks nothing like it did in the 1920s. It is more like Amazon than Amway. More and more fortune companies are using the direct marketing model. And unlike the past some experts believe the industry ($100 Billion annually is an industry) is poised for explosive growth as in this recent Forbes article http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlaura/2014/08/29/would-you-join-a-multi-level-marketing-company-for-retirement-income/.
You choose one of the worst companies as an example. Corporations and and most governments look like a pyramid. I guess I'm one of those along with many others here who are making a good income. Network Marketing is a business not a scheme, in most cases. Just a different distribution model. Direct marketing is here to stay because it is the most efficient way to distribute products. It doesn't make sense to call companies bad because of how they choose to distribute products. If I called Enron a bad company, which it was, and said therefore all traditional companies are bad that wouldn't make sense either.
I have just read this page wirh interest after arriving here after searching on "Paul Pilzer scam".
I was really interested to see "Paul" attempting to agressively defend Paul Zane Pilzer.
When I saw the descriptions that "Paul" used to describe Pilzer, I knew immediately that Paul was none other than Paul Pilser himself.
How do I know that? Well that's relatively easy when you have known the guy for over 10 years. And that being the case I can also tell you that he is so egocentric that he is the ONLY person that has ever described himself as a "leading economist". As for his other description of "presidential advisor" I can tell you that is also another figment of his own imagination.
Those two terms were his own descriptions that he used in PR material that he wrote himself.
In fact you only have to search on Google using the phrase "paul pilzer presidential advisor" and you will quickly find that there is nothing listed anywhere except those pages he has written on his own very creepy self-promotional website, or that one on Wikkipedia "that he had his flunky manager write.
Yes, he actually has a manager. But not a paid one. It is a person that Paul has had within his spell for so many years that it ridiculous. And the only reason they acted as paul's manager, was because he was such a complete loser, that it made him feel important believing everything Paul told him.
As for MLM. The reason Paul has built his career around MLM is because he can talk. In other words, no hard work. He has always left that to others. Yes, more people that were stupid enough to believe him. But the one thing all those people have in common is that they virtually all wake up at some stage.
So thats it from me. From now on I will fondly remember this page as one more of the Paul Pilzer Scam Artist Exposed pages.
And my compliments to you LazyMan for standing up to him and not falling for his BS.
I actually believe "Paul" is Jeremy "Paul" Reynolds. He is one of the top distributors of Xocai and I know first hand that this is not a reputable company. Jeremy fancies himself as a leader but all he does is regurgitate inspirational quotes. I wish I would have seen this article several years ago. It would have saved me thousands of dollars. Check out his facebook page. You'll see what I'm talking about. The only thing more nauseating than Jeremy, would be his wife. You can take the girl out of West Bountiful, but you can't take the West Bountiful out of the girl. Again, Kudos to you Lazy Man for completely blowing every argument he had out of the water. This company needs to be shut down. I'm also wondering why Xocai is not on your list of scams on your homepage under MLM scams? It needs to be.
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New Fiberglass Duct Rods, Conduit Cable Rodders
Posted at: Offers to Sell and Export | Posted on: Mon 07 Dec, 2009 6:29 am |
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Fiberglass duct rodders/rods, Duct Rodder/cable Jockey/fish tape/Tracing Duct Rods
High quality fiberglass
rods is a very good electric power tools that pulling the cable in the conduit or underground duct, duct rods/rodders is specially constructed to peovide exceptionally high tensile strenhths, whilist retaining flexibility. The Duct rodder/rod past CCC govement inspection, and duct rodder/rods is filled 85% of fiberglass core is reinforced with high strength resin. Braided reinforcing wrap construction is add most duct/conduit, the surface of duct rodders/rods is soothly, applied in pulling the cable or cable tools. The continuous rods sizes are 4.5mm 6mm 9mm 10mm 11mm 12mm 13mm 14mm 15mm 16mm, ducr rodders lenghth is range 50m to 400m.
Duct rodders/rods features
1. strong non-conductive fiberglass rod construction
2. stainless steel drawing head
3. for longer conduit runs and underground duct
4. Rugged tubular steel reel with adjustable position.
5. Feed device allows rod to feed out or be wound back onto reel with easy pushi or pull of rod.
6. Duct rods/duct rodders have Many applications, not only pulling the cable but also pulling electric tools, and its repair is very easy, and available.
Glass fiber rod diameter Φ4.5-16mm
Length 100-400m
Working temperature -40℃至+80℃
Min Bend Radius 295mm
Breaking tension 4.5T
Glassfiber density 150g/m
Company Contact:
Contact Name: Harry
Company Name: Bazhou Yutong Wire Laying Machines Manufacturing Co., Ltd
Tel: +86-0316-7393094
Fax: +86-0316-7393886
Street Address: Xuegezhuang Village,
Kangxianzhuang Town, Bazhou, Hebei,
China 065700
Member name: ytxljj
Member Since: 27 November 2009
Total Leads:
43 ytxljj Import Export Business Leads
Business focus: Duct Rod, Cable Winch, Cable Pay-off Stand, Roller, Cable Drum Trailer
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Fiberglass Duct Rodders, Conduit Pulling Rods
- By ytxljj - On Thu 25 Mar, 2010 3:02 am: fiberglass duct rodder amp amp duct rods amp amp fiberglass rod duct rodder is composed of fiberglass rod which is extruded by fiber glass rod ....
Sell Fiberglass Duct Rodders, Fishtapes, Tracing Duct Rods
- By Marysong2008 - On Sun 31 May, 2009 6:07 am: fiberglass duct rodder mainly used for the pulling of guiding wire in the conduit as well as the laying of communication cable power cable mesh wir....
Mini Duct Rods, Conduit Cable Roder
- By ytxljj - On Wed 09 Dec, 2009 8:23 am: duct rod duct rodder conduit duct rods push rods we offer three types of duct rod cobra# medium sized# and mini-cobra# each has a glass reinf....
Fibersnake Duct Rodder , Rodalongs, Fish Tape Rod, Wall Snake, Wire Pulling Rods, Fiberglass Conduit
- By Zoujq - On Thu 26 Jun, 2008 4:07 am: fiberglass conduit rodder system can handle virtually any job from installing short run electrical wire and data cable to running long distances of f....
Mini Frp Duct Rods, Hand Fiber Rodders
- By zhengrun - On Fri 31 Aug, 2012 3:10 am: fiberglass rod compared to other rodders the mini-max fiberglass rod has an 80 percent fiberglass core compared to 50 percent fiberglass rods that ar....
Fiberglass Rods, Cable Guide Rod, Fish Tape, Duct Rodder
- By ytxljj - On Tue 15 Dec, 2009 8:36 am: fiberglass rod construction 2 stainless steel drawing head 3 for longer conduit runs and underground duct 4 rugged tubular steel reel with....
Fiberglass Duct Rodders, Cables Rodder
- By DeLiTooles - On Fri 18 Jun, 2010 3:31 am: duct rodder duct rodders are composed of fiber glass rod which was extruded by fiber glass and high strength resin at high temperature this type of ....
Glassfiber Rods, Conduit Duct Rodder
- By ytxljj - On Mon 07 Dec, 2009 6:42 am: duct rods ideal for short to long installations into cable ducts conduit the 9mm 10mm 11mm 12mm 13mm and 14mm 15mm 16mm cobra conduit duct rod....
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