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Skip to comments.Myth: The Founders Established A Wall of Separation Between Church and State
Posted on 01/04/2002 6:53:58 PM PST by Sir Gawain
It would be improper to omit, in this fisrt official act, my fervent supplication to that Almighty Being....No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some providential agency....We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained.4
Our second president, John Adams, once told Thomas Jefferson,
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were....the general principles of Christianity....I will avow that I believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.5
John Quincy Adams, sixth president of the United States, summarized American history: "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government and the principles of Christianity."6 Adams's statement is diametrically opposed to the separation myth.
Noah Webster claimed,
The religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion of Christ and his apostles, which enjoins humility, piety, and benevolence; which acknowledges in every person a brother, or a sister, and a citizen with equal rights. This is the genuine Christianity, and to this [Christianity] we owe our free Constitution of government.7
Those are not the words of some wing-nut fundamentalist. Webster literally wrote the English dictionary, and he used words as precisely as a surgeon uses a scapel. His words cannot be redifined to say anything less than the Christian origin of the Constitution.
This case is crucial because it makes two issues very clear. First, it illustrates the real meaning behind the First Amendment: Each Christian denomination was placed upon an equal footing. Notice it didn't say all religions were equal in America, but that all denominations of Christians were equal. The intention behind the First Amendment was to prevent one denomination from becoming the national church. Everyone understood that; most could remember what it was like to live under the oppressive Church of England. This was one of the primary motivations for leaving England. But and "equal footing" had nothing to do with a wall of separation.
The second issue is quite a bombshell. The truth about the First Amendment is that it was adopted to prevent any one denomination from infringing upon another but was never intended to be hostile toward Christianity or designed to exclude Christianity from political life. The Supreme Court affirmed Christianity as the established religion. Following the case, there was no public outcry, no suits by the ACLU, and no conflict with the Constitution. While the separation of church and state might well be entrenched in the political thinking of today, it was absolutely foreign to both the founding fathers and the Supreme Court prior to 1947.
Nearly 120 years after the birth of our nation, the Supreme Court reaffirmed the fact that America was a Christian nation. In the case of Holy Trinity v. United States (1892) the unanimous decision stated:
Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teaching of The Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian....This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation...we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth....These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.9
Following the Court's statement that America was a Christian nation, three pages were devoted to eighty-seven authoritative citations. From the commission of Christopher Columbus onward, the Court built and airtight case for its proposition that America is a Christian nation. That's why Congress saw no conflict when it spent federal money to support ministers and missionaries for over one hundred years. Nor was there a conflict with appointing chaplains to the Senate, the House, or the armed forces. They saw no problem with Washington's being sworn into office with his hand on the Bible opened to Deuteronomy 6. That's also why the very same Congress that gave us the Constitution decided that President Washington's inauguration would conclude with a church service at Saint Paul's Chapel, led by the chaplains of Congress. The same Congress that approved a national day of prayer and thanksgiving, "whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor."10
The separation of church and state was so foreign to the roots of America that Congress even approved a special printing of the Bible for use in public schools. In 1781, a publisher petitioned Congress for permission to print Bibles. Congress not only approved his request but issued this statement in 1782: "The Congress of the United States approves and recommends to the people, the Holy Bible...for use in schools."12 Interestingly enough, that statement isn't included within the NEA policy handbook. When the congressional recommendation was challenged, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled, "Why not the Bible, and especially the New Testament, be read and taught as a divine revelation in the schools? Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?"13
The founding fathers saw such a blend of Christianity and civil government that most expected officeholders to be Christians. While denominational affiliation didn't matter, a belief in God and the Bible was paramount. Nine of the thirteen colonies had written constitutions. Many of them required officeholders to sign a declaration that amounted to a statement of faith. The Delaware Constitution of 1776 is a perfect example:
Everyone appointed to public office must say: "I do profess faith in God the Father, and in the Lord Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed forevermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be given by divine inspiration."14
Many theological seminaries couldn't say that today. I'm not suggesting that we return to such a standard, but the Delaware Constitution blows away the separation myth and illustrates the Christian bias of the founding fathers.
Even as late as 1931, the Court continued to affirm America as a Christian nation. In the U.S v. Macintosh, the Court ruled, "We are a Christian people, according to one another the equal right of religious freedom, and acknowledging with reverence the duty of obedience to the will of God." In addition to being a "Christian people," the Court asserted that obedience to the will of God was duty of American citizens. No wonder de Tocqeville wrote what he did about Americans combining the notions of Christianity and liberty so intimately that it was impossible to make them conceive of the one without the other. De Tocqueville's testimony is priceless because he was an unbiased eyewitness to what was actually occurring in early America.
Knowledge of the founding fathers' faith and their intention to establish a Christian nation has been a long-standing part of our American heritage. Even the modern-day liberal Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas confessed, "We are a religious people, and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being."17 More direct still were the words of Chief Justice Earl Warren. Certainly not known for a conservative bent, Warren told Time:
I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing the Good Book and the Spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses....Whether we look to the First Charter of Virginia, or to the Charter of New England, or to the Charter of Massachusetts Bay, or the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut. The same object is present; a Christian land governed by Christian principles. I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it; freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under the law, and the reservation of powers to the people. I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country.18
How could a contemporary Supreme Court justice utter words so contrary to the current Court's position? The answer is that Warren made his statements in 1954. Justice Warren was educated within a system that had not yet rewritten a secular, sanitized version of American history. He was historically accurate but politically incorrect. His words were also prophetic: "I like also to believe that as long as we do so [live in the spirit of a Christian land governed by Christian principles], no great harm can come to our country."
The fanatical nature of the Court's decision is obvious when set within the context of the 1940s. Just three years earlier, the National Education Association had published a series of sixteen "Personal Growth Leaflets" to help public-school students become "familiar with our great literary heritage." The back of the booklet read, "It is important that people who are to live together and work together happily shall have a common mind--a common body of appreciations and ideals to animate and inspire them."19 The NEA's selections for inspiring American students is extraordinary: the Lord's Prayer; the poem "Father in Heaven, We Thank Thee"; another poem that introduced the concept of daily prayers; a thanksgiving poem that admonished kids to "thank the One who gave all the good things that we have." If there was a distinctive "wall of separation" between church and state, why didn't the National Education Association (of all organizations) know about it in 1944? The wall is a myth.
For fifteen years the Court's decision had little impact upon judicial decisions but instead quietly cultivated a whole new thought system. In 1962, the seeds of the Everson case burst into full bloom and became controlling precedent for Engle v. Vitale--the case that removed prayer in public education by ruling voluntary and denominationally neutral prayer unconstitutional. The actual prayer was rather benign: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon thee and we beg thy blessings upon us and our parents, our teachers, and our country." Tragically, Engle v. Vitale started a domino effect of court rulings that removed our religious heritage from the public arena, especially from education.
In the 1963 decision of Abington v. Schempp, the Court removed Bible reading from public education. The Court's justification? "If portions of the New Testament were read without explanation, they could be and have been psychologically harmful to a child." Simply amazing. Suddenly, the best- selling book of all time and the most quoted source by the founding fathers was unconstitutional and psychologically harmful. The honorable court certainly didn't share the religious values of the founders nor the sustainers of the Republic. Abraham Lincoln said, "But for the Bible we would not know right from wrong." Exactly. One of the reasons we have lost our moral bearings is that the objective values of right and wrong have been removed from chilren's education.
In 1965, the Court ruled that religious speech among students was unconstitutional (Stein v. Oshinsky). While freedom of speech is still guaranteed for pornographers and political dissidents, one topic is taboo on the campus: religion. Stein v. Oshinsky made it unconstitutional for a student to pray aloud over a meal. In 1992, the Court carried its censorship into the college classroom by ordering a professor to stop discussing Christianity. In the outlandish ruling for DeSpain v. DeKalb County Community School District (1967), the Court declared the following kindergarten nursery rhyme unconstitutional: "We thank you for the flowers so sweet; We thank you for the food we eat; We thank you for the birds that sing; We thank you for everything." The Court's logic baffles common sense. Although the word God was not contained in this nursery rhyme, the Court argued that if someone were to hear it, it might cause them to think of God and was therefore unconstitutional.
In 1969, it became unconstitutional to erect a war memorial in the shape of a cross (Lowe v. City of Eugene, 1969). The Court carried that same religious bigotry into a 1994 case in which a cross in a San Diego park had to be removed. In 1976, it became unconstitutional for a board of education to use or refer to the word God in any official writings (State of Ohio v. Whisner). In 1979, it became unconstitutional for a kindergarten class to ask whose birthday was being celebrated in a Christmas assembly (Florey v. Sioux Falls School District).
By 1980 this incredibly twisted approach made it unconstitutional to post the Ten Commandments on school walls. According to Stone v. Graham, "If posted copies of the Ten Commandments are to have any effect at all it will be to induce the schoolchildren to read, meditate upon, perhaps venerate and obey the commandments; this is not a permissable objective." James Madison, the man most responsible for the U.S. Constitution said "[We] have staked the future of all of our political Constitutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."20 Once again, the honorable Court is completely out of step with the founding fathers. Madison was absolutely right--the pathetic condition of our culture reflects the inability of individuals to control themselves. While the Ten Commandments hang above the chief justice of the Supreme Court, they are hypocritically censored from the halls of our schools. George Washington said that apart from religion, there can be no morality. We have removed religion from the public arena--and internal self-restraint has gone with it.
In 1985, Wallace v. Jaffree, the Supreme Court declared that any bill (even those which are constitutionally acceptable) is unconstitutional if the author of the bill had a religious activity in mind when the bill was written. With this case the Court carried the wall of separation beyond absurdity. In addition to applying to religious activities, words, and symbols, along with anything else that might cause someone to think about God, now the mythological wall may be brought to bear on an author's thoughts while penning a bill. I suppose the speculations of mind readers will soon be admissible as evidence within our insane court system.
Why did the courts make such a drastic departure from our roots? The answer is self-interest and a complete disregard for the Constitution's intent. Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes illustrated his personal contempt for the original intent of the Constitution when he said, "We are under a Constitution, but the Constitution is what judges say it is."21 The words of Supreme Court Justice Brennan are even more toxic: "It is arrogant to use the Constitution as the founding fathers intended, it must be interpreted in light of current problems and current needs."22 Perhaps the arrogance lies not in interpreting the Constitution as the founding fathers intended but, rather, in reinterpreting the Constitution to meet one's current needs. It takes brazen audacity to ignore the intentions of the founding fathers and to turn one's back on the 175 years of stellar American history that our Constitution provided.
While many things can be done to stop our steady decline, the most important issue is truth. The truth must be told about our nation's heritage. The lie concerning the faith of our founding fathers and the myth of separation between church and state must be corrected with historical truth. Only then will we be able to reintroduce into public affairs the Judeo-Christian ethic that made this nation great. From the schoolhouse to the White House, the principles of Christianity must once again be seen as the guiding genius behind our matchless Constitution. Once this is appreciated by the populace, the indispensible pillars of morality and religion can breathe life back into our society.
Number 20, please.
Truly, Jesus Christ is the ONLY person that ever lived who inspired such fervent and sustained attack. Mention His name specifically and state that no one can have a relationship with God unless they bow to Him and you'll WISH you were only dealing on the Conservative/Liberal front!
Of course, as long as the atheist/libertarian wing continues wilfully to ignore the fact that their philosophy is built on Christian foundations, this article won't change any minds....
Not to mention that the supposedly libertarian glory days of the past were made possible because the population was largely made up of Christians whose beliefs required them to follow those rules.
That reminds me of a quote:
"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it. Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore him to the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus."
-- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to W. Short, 1820. Thomas Jefferson, a Deist (not a Christian) was, of course, the author of the Declaration of Independence and of the Virginia Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom.
I like this:
The separation of church and state was so foreign to the roots of America that Congress even approved a special printing of the Bible for use in public schools. In 1781, a publisher petitioned Congress for permission to print Bibles. Congress not only approved his request but issued this statement in 1782: "The Congress of the United States approves and recommends to the people, the Holy Bible...for use in schools."12 Interestingly enough, that statement isn't included within the NEA policy handbook. When the congressional recommendation was challenged, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled, "Why not the Bible, and especially the New Testament, be read and taught as a divine revelation in the schools? Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?"13
In todays schools, it's OK to teach 6th grade students the importance of tolerance, Homosexual rights, same sex marriages, abortion rights and birth control. But if the teacher tries to teach about personal responsibilty or the common sense notion of being held accountable for your actions, he or she will most likely be suspended. Heaven forbid if the teacher mention GOD in the classroom, he or she will be terminated on the spot.
Look what our schools have become ever since GOD was thrown out of them!
Their intent was to keep the STATE from using the powers and influence of the CHURCH to manipulate/control the populace.
This was the reason they left ENGLAND and came to the Americas, was to set up a gov't like this, and not like ENGLAND's where the CHURCH and STATE were intimately linked, and the STATE declared you must practice the chosen religion.
Once again, they did not declare a separation of church and state,
but a Separation of the POWERS of CHURCH AND STATE ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Excellent point. I wonder if anyone has the stats on how many school shootings there were before prayer was taken out of school and how many there have been since prayer was removed. I'd also like to have a practicing anti-Christian bigot explain to me why it's okay to pray in school AFTER a school shooting but not before.
Late in life, Jefferson acknowledged he was a Unitarian and proselytized on their behalf. He was not a deist.
Amendment 1
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
Bunch of pagans if you ask me. :)
If you were agreeing with my by supplying the amendment, I respectfully Thank You !
I'd like someone to explain to me why Christians let the government raise their kids in the first place.
No King but King Thomas !........I don't know.....doesn't quite carry the same weight......
Unitarians such as Jefferson, John John Quincy and Abigal Adams,Julia Ward Howe and Millard Fillmore, among others, did consider themselves Christians.
But that was at the end of his life, not during the relevant times of country building.
Harold K. Lane, Liberty! Cry Liberty! (Boston: Lamb and Lamb Tractarian Society, 1939) 32-3.
Just look at every single country on the planet that is governed by a religous entity or person! It results in oppression and dictatorships, but when religion is denied you have Godless and morally bankrupt countries like China and the former Soviet Union. My belief is: The Founding Fathers made sure it was understood we were founded under "One God" and the seperation between church and state is that no laws or shall be made for or against religion. So I believe when our children were denied the right of prayer in school, that is when our Constitutional Rights were violated
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments." David Barton's book The Myth of Separation
And yes, Unitarians back then, unlike many today, were Christians. Despite what most everyone else called them :-)
That would be a good question for the ACLU (Anti.. Christian.. Liberal.. Union..)
As far as Christians allowing the government to raise their kids... I don't know if sending kids to school amounts to having the government raise them, but the question does have some validity.
Obviously there is no quick-fix that will take us back to pre-1970 school safety levels, but let's at least acknowledge that schools were safer before we kicked God out.
Alliance for the Separation of School and State
Also see this recent thread (an excellent read).
I intend to.
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Source: Lake Geneva Regional News
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The Time is Now to Help
I am not a hero
July 28, 2011
Several weeks ago we were contacted by CNN. They told us we had been nominated to be a CNN Hero. After several telephone interviews and a thorough investigation by CNN they informed me they wanted to meet me.
I was very apprehensive. I ignored their phone calls and emails for days. When I finally returned their call I told them I was not a hero. Our fellow creation that are surviving the pains of poverty and our fellow Americans who donate to The Time Is Now To Help, making our mission possible, are the true heroes. I was told CNN would bring more recognition to the strife of poverty and this will in turn help more Americans that suffer daily in poverty. I agreed to meet.
Within a week a Kathleen Toner, a CNN reporter and Chris, a CNN camera man arrived from New York to film The Time Is Now To Help at work.
CNN accompanied me to visit some of our fellow Americans in desperate need of assistance. It was a busy two days of visits and interviewing. Many people were not willing to share their pain and embarrassment of poverty with CNN. It took over twenty requests before a few gave us their consent. I had a very difficult time with this. I remember the shame I felt as a young boy, growing up in poverty. Some were willing to show what they struggle with on a daily basis, to bring awareness to poverty in America, behind closed doors.
We respected privacy when it was requested. We also respected our fellow creations that did not mind giving us a glimpse into what it is like to live in poverty, with hunger, disabilities, and the daily struggle to get by. Thank you to all that let the camera man into their private lives and struggles.
CNN has just notified us that the story done on our organization, The Time Is Now To Help, will air this weekend beginning on Friday. Their website www.cnn.com/heroes will have the story available beginning Thursday. We could not have done this without your caring and sharing for over 20 years. Every time I hugged a crying senior citizen, helped a single mother, comforted a handicapped individual, I felt you by my side. This honor is yours, my supporters, not mine. Our caring and sharing hearts coming together have eased the pain and suffering for thousands of fellow Americans, God Bless you.
All I know of the person that nominated me for the CNN Heroes is they are the mother of a woman that received our assistance. She was so moved by our assistance to her daughter she felt the need to help share our story. I want to tell this woman it was an honor to be able to assist your daughter when she needed a helping hand. It is what The Time Is Now To Help is grateful to do every day. We are always thankful for our donors and volunteers. We are always happy we can offer assistance when needed. Thank you, God bless you, for caring and sharing for our fellow creations.
We are almost to our goal for the Lake Geneva Area Realty $40,000 Matching Grant. Every dollar you donate will be matched with another doubling your donation. Every penny you donate will be utilized 100 percent to provide food, toiletries, utility and housing assistance ... to ease the pains of poverty of our fellow Americans. Please help. I cannot help all those in desperate need without you.
Health and Happiness, God Bless Everyone, WC/Sal
Please Help: Make checks payable to: The Time Is Now to Help, P.O. Box 70, Pell Lake, WI 53157. The Time Is Now to Help is a federally recognized 501(c)3 charitable organization licensed in the states of Wisconsin and Illinois. You will receive a tax deductible, itemized thank you receipt showing exactly what every penny of your donation provided for the poverty stricken.
A Very Special Thank You: Elaine Hamilton, Dennis R. & Michele W. Baltzley, Lake Geneva Area Realty, Richard & Jean Honeyager, Martin O'Brien, Martin Business Group, Overland Sheepskin & Overland Diet Club, Thomas & Beverly Eck, Daniel Casey, Gerald & Marilyn Wilkin, Pamela DeRoy, Bonita Breit, James & Janice Wilkin, Vito & Betty Licari, Bryan & Sharon Dixon, Brendan & Julie Dobbin, Larry & Vern Magee, Dan & Katherine Flaherty, Gene Krauklis, Shawna Kneipper, Lisa Loepke, Mary Cucchi, Heidi Hall, Jeanne McDonald, Joanne Abbe, Diane Palma, Judith Mackessy, W.C. Family Resource Center/Food Pantry volunteers, and all the God loving volunteers of all our caring food pantries, ALL of you who support The Time Is Now To Help donation boxes, and the businesses that allow our donation boxes. Anyone who would like a Time Is Now donation box in your business, please call (262) 249-7000.
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Crisponi, G. and Dejak, C. and Mazzei Lalatta, I. (1974) Standardizzazione per lo studio dell'effetto Broensted della reazione di con Hg++ e HgCl++. Accademia Peloritana dei Pericolanti, Classe di Scienze FF. MM. NN., LIV. pp. 143-152.
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A kinetic study of the Hg(II)X catalyzed acquation of the complex has been carried out.
A reaction mechanism involving two consecutive and competitive reactions RCI++ + Hg++ -> + HgCl+; RCI++ + HgCl+ -> + , with velocities of the same order, and the equilibrium 2HgCl++ Hg++ + is proposed. A method of evaluation of the relative rate constants is developed:
the expression of the ratio complex transformed/time is obtained as a polynomial of 8th order in time by series integgration of the differential equation rapresenting the reaction system and the kinetic constants are determined, that give the best fitting of the polynomial to experimental data.
The difference in the values of the constants for the reactionas with X = Y = , X = Y = , X = and Y = is significant, and trying a first interpretation of this phenomenon it is shown that, for the study of the kinetic salt effect, the reaction with perclorates of the cations (reagents and of the added salts) are the most suitable.
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|M.U.S. - Miscellanea > Atti Accademia Peloritana > Classe di Scienze Fisiche, Matematiche e Naturali > 1974 (2)
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|31 Oct 2012 11:59
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CMX turns 12
Battye congratulations,12 years is amazing for a forum. Well done.
Posted by
· Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:16 pm ·
Comments (1)
11 and counting for CricketMX
This time 11 years ago, to the minute, CricketMX was born with the help of
who was able to supply free webhosting to a forum that was just starting out
The forum has come a long way since 2004 and soon another chapter will begin, given recent release of phpBB 3.1 (Ascraeus).
Thanks to all the contributors at CMX, and here's to a prosperous 2015
Posted by
· Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:26 am ·
Comments (4)
Merry Christmas, Happy 2015!
Thanks Battye. Season's greetings to Cricketers one and all
Posted by
· Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:42 pm ·
Comments (1)
Red XIII - still adding to our forum history!
I think this is a funny story and I had to share it
Over the last week the forum has gone offline a couple of times. You might have noticed an "account suspended" message - my understanding is that due to anti-spam measures, accounts get suspended when a suspiciously large number of spam-like emails get sent out. Obviously, we here at CMX are not in the business of sending spam
The initial view was that the account was compromised and someone was using this account to send out spam. Fortunately it turned out this wasn't the case. After some investigation by HostForWeb (our webhost) it turned out that the cause of the spam was Red's old email address, dating back to around 2005 when forum members were given personalised "@cricketmx.com" email addresses
A possible explanation is that the account is set up on an old Outlook somewhere, and a run of the mill malware has starting sending spam emails from that account! So if you see this Red, run AVG or something... you brought the forum to its knees twice in a week!
Posted by
· Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:21 pm ·
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Theresa I. FiskeOctober 29,2012
Theresa I. FiskeTheresa I. Fiske
CASTLETON Theresa Ida Fiske, 81, died Saturday, Oct. 27, 2012, at Rutland Health and Rehabilitation Center, following a long illness.
She was born Aug. 18, 1931, in Fitchburg, Mass., the daughter of Mary Eva (Daigle) and Charles Harvey Sr.
She was a parts assembly factory worker for Vermont Juvenile Co. (Pet Gear) in West Rutland for 38 years, retiring in 2005, and then she was employed at Pruniers Market.
Mrs. Fiske was a member of St. John the Baptist Catholic Church.
She enjoyed flower and vegetable gardening.
Survivors include a son, Raymond Harvey of Castleton; two sisters, Rita Rivard of Massachusetts and Jean Robinson of St. Anthony, Idaho; several nieces and nephews.
She was predeceased by her husband, Edward Fiske, and six siblings, Beatrice Pellitter, Dolly Beayon, Charles Jr., Raymond, Wilfred and George Harvey.
The funeral service will be held 10 a.m. Wednesday, Oct. 31, at St. John the Baptist Church in Castleton. Burial will follow in Hillside Cemetery.
Friends may call from 4 to 6 p.m. Tuesday, Oct. 30, at the Durfee Funeral Home.
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Skip to comments.New Ice-Core Evidence Challenges the 1620s age for the Santorini (Minoan) Eruption
Posted on 07/29/2004 12:25:45 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
Determining a reliable calendrical age of the Santorini (Minoan) eruption is necessary to place the impact of the eruption into its proper context within Bronze Age society in the Aegean region. The high-resolution record of the deposition of volcanically produced acids on polar ice sheets, as available in the SO42-time series from ice cores (a direct signal), and the high-resolution record of the climatic impact of past volcanism inferred in tree rings (a secondary signal) have been widely used to assign a 1628/1627 age to the eruption. The layer of ice in the GISP2 (Greenland) ice core corresponding to 1623±36 , which is probably correlative to the 1628/1627 event, not only contains a large volcanic-SO42-spike, but it contains volcanic glass. Composition of this glass does not match the composition of glass from the Santorini eruption, thus severely challenging the 1620s age for the eruption. Similarly, the GISP2 glass does not match the composition of glass from other eruptions (Aniakchak, Mt. St. Helens, Vesuvius) thought to have occurred in the 17th century nor does it match potential Icelandic sources. These findings suggest that an eruption not documented in the geological record is responsible for the many climate-proxy signals in the late 1620s . Although these findings do not unequivocally discount the 1620s age, we recommend that 1628/1627 no longer be held as the "definitive" age for the Santorini eruption.
(Excerpt) Read more at sciencedirect.com ...
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50 Ancient Tombs Uncovered (1400BC, Crete)
Good info...I notice they didn't assign a new date to the Santorini eruption.
I wonder what caused the 1628 ice core spike?
I, too, wonder. Could be from an eruption anywhere in the world. Hawaii area comes to mind at once.
I wonder what caused the 1628 ice core spike?And all the others...
The truth of the matter is quite simple. There was once only one sulphur spike great enough to match Thera because budgetary restraints on the ice core work meant that such peaks had not been systematically looked for. Second millennium ice cores have now been searched more thoroughly, and there are peaks of sulphuric acid easily enough to match Thera (which vulcanologists say was not the kind of eruption to shoot out that much sulphur anyway), at NUMEROUS dates within the 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th, 14th centuries BC (see Zielinski et al in Science 264, 1994, pp. 948-952). The REAL FACTS show not only how pathetic is the case for the 17th-century proxy dating...[from "Re: When did Thera Erupt?", Peter James, reply to a discussion thread on an unknown e-list. Obtained via email from Ev Cochrane]
[T]here is now concrete evidence that the 17th-century ice core event COULD NOT have had anything to do with Thera. See Zielinski and Germani: "New Ice-Core Evidence Challenges the 1620s BC Age for the Santorini (Minoan) Eruption", Journal of Archaeological Science 25 (1998), pp. 279-289. In short, glassy volcanic material has now been analysed from the 1620s ice core layers. It was immediately compared with material from Thera and, in the words of the investigators, it "is very much different". Their conclusion:"Although we cannot completely rule out the possibility that two nearly coincident eruptions, including the Santorini eruption, are responsible for the 1623 BC signal in the GISP ice core, these results very much suggest that the Santorini eruption is not responsible for this signal. We believe that another eruption led not only to the 1623 BC ice core signal but also, by correlation, to the tree-ring signals at 1628/1627 BC."So there you have it. An opinion straight from the mouth of ice-core scientists which happens to agree, strangely enough with what vulcanologists have been saying and also cautious well-informed archaeologists like Professor Peter Warren of Bristol University who is AWARE of the problems inherent in "scientific" dating methods and has for years been lecturing and publishing caution about proxy dating.
"We learned that seals were coming to a bad end and being mummified by nature in Antarctica in 1200 A.D. That was interesting and we wondered what was happening in Antarctica at that time...one of the technicians... noticed that a seal carcass that he himself had shot for dog-meat and that got left out through the winter... [looked] just like the mummified seals that they had been sending in. So without telling too many people what he was doing, he sent this mummified seal to be carbon-dated and do you know it was dated to 1200 A.D., and he had shot it the year before. When that was made public it really caused a storm."Similarly...
and now, from proxy dating I turn to proxy quoting (':Ancient Modern Life And Carbon DatingPrimordial carbon may come from limestone or natural gas welling up from the earth's interior. Modern life forms that metabolize primordial rather than atmospheric carbon dioxide, with its cosmic-ray produced carbon-14, will appear extremely old when carbon-dated. Mice eating such apparently ancient life forms at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, California, were carbon-dated as being 13,000 years old, and were expected to attain a ripe old age of 35,000 in a few months.
by William R. Corliss
"From Thera itself came carbonized tree trunk, still rooted in Minoan soil at the bottom of the Fira quarry." "The carbon-14 verdict from the Fira quarry trees was that life on the island had ended in the seventeenth century B.C. - about 1640>, give or take thirty years in either direction." [Charles Pellegrino, Unearthing Atlantis (1991) p. 233]this, regarding a big mutha of an eruption -- in prehistoric times.
It should be noted that the "eruption destroyed the Minoans" school has persistently exaggerated the amount of crud covering Akrotiri, claiming as much as 100 feet of ash. Not that they were lyin' er anything... Here's an example:Marine tephra from the Cape Riva eruption (22 ka) of Santorini in the Sea of Marmara[Abstract] A discrete tephra layer has been discovered in three marine sediment cores from the Sea of Marmara, eastern Mediterranean. The rhyodacitic glass chemistry and the stratigraphical position suggest a Santorini provenance and, in particular, a correlation with the marine Y-2 tephra that is known from the southern Aegean Sea and eastern Levantine Basin. This tephra represents the distal facies of the Cape Riva eruption of Santorini, which has been dated by 14C on land at 21950 cal. yr BP. Hitherto, the Y-2 tephra has been detected only in marine sediment cores recovered south to southeast of its volcanic source. The new occurrence in the Sea of Marmara approximately 530 km NNE of the Santorini eruptive centre suggests a more north-easterly dispersal of fallout products of the Cape Riva eruption than previously supposed.
S. Wulf, M. Kraml, T. Kuhn,
M. Schwarz, M. Inthorn, J. Keller,
I. Kuscu, and P. HalbachSantorini, GreeceSantorini is complex of overlapping shield volcanoes. Basalt and andesite lava flows that make the shield are exposed in the cliff below the town of Phira. Some of the cliff is thought to be a caldera wall associated with an eruption 21,000 year ago. Druitt and Francaviglia (1992) found evidence of at least 12 large explosive eruptions in the last 200,000 years at Santorin i...
Akroteri, a Minoan city on the south part of Thera, is being excavated. About 3-6 feet (1-2 m) of ash fell on the city which had a population of about 30,000. The residents appear to have been successfully evacuated prior to the eruption. No bodies have been found in the ash like those at Vesuvius. Archeologists also reported that movable objects had been taken from the city...
The Kameni Islands formed after the caldera. Eleven eruptions since 197 B.C. have made the two islands. The most recent eruption at Santorini was in 1950 on Nea Kameni, the northern island. The eruption was phreatic and lasted less than a month. It constructed a dome and produced lava flows.
The town was abandoned (little if anything was left behind) probably due to earthquakes, and buried under 16 feet or less of ash. That author's "five meters" is a bit of hyperbole I believe -- I've seen figures of three meters for the average depth of coverage. And Akrotiri was right on the crater.Akrotiri And The Santorini VolcanoThe final deposition of tephra (volcanic ash) attributable to this eruptional sequence is over five meters thick at Akrotiri but up to fifty meters thick elsewhere on Thera and includes large boulders of basalt in addition to the lighter and smaller bits of pumice which themselves now measure as much as fifteen centimeters across. There is no archaeological evidence for how long the full series of eruptions lasted, but vulcanologists have reached a consensus that the process was a fairly rapid, hence short-lived one. The absence of any clear signs of erosion at the preserved tops of the ruins of Akrotiri supports the notion that complete burial of these ruins followed close upon the heels of the events which produced the ruins in the first place, that is, the initial stages of the eruption.
1999 (from the Web Archive)
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Interestingly enough, Manning cites Lesson 17: Akrotiri on Thera which, while it toes the line regarding the current dating fictions, also notes that:Bronze Age Myths?A first rule of statistics is that the existence of a correlation does not itself prove a causal connection... This paper examines some of the available evidence for these two Bronze Age 'catastrophes', the one real and in need of a calendar date, the other hypothesized on archaeological grounds and dated by a tenuous link through tree rings to an Icelandic volcano... Despite several cautionary comments from both archaeologists (Manning 1988; Warren 1988) and geologists (Pyle 1989; 1990), the 1628 BC date, or one close to it, continues to be accepted (e.g. Michael and Betancourt 1988), without questioning why the effects of the Santorini eruption should be especially recognizable in the ice-core and tree-ring sequences. Large-scale explosive volcanic activity is common on a global scale (Zielinski et al. 1996), and so before accepting the possibility that the Santorini eruption can be recognized by unusual perturbations in the regional records of ice-cores or tree-rings, the case for its distinctive character must be proved.
Volcanic Activity and Human Response
in the Mediterranean and North Atlantic Region
Paul C. Buckland
Andrew J. Dugmore
Kevin J. Edwards
Antiquity Vol. 71 (1997), pp. 581-593.The Thera (Santorini) Volcanic Eruption and...It is argued that the key Late Minoan IA period, the high point of the Minoan civilisation, was not, as conventionally held, contemporary (even in part) with the New Kingdom (18th Dynasty) of Egypt, nor the Late Bronze 1 phase of the Levant. Instead, the Late Minoan IA period in the Aegean is linked with the late Middle Bronze Age of Syria-Palestine, the Second Intermediate (Hyksos) Period of Egypt, and the Late Cypriot IA period of Cyprus. This is an important realignment of cultural synchronisations. The high point of Crete should be considered in terms of the dominant Canaanite trading system of the late Middle Bronze Age, and not New Kingdom Egypt...
the Absolute Chronology of the Aegean Bronze Age
by Sturt W. Manning
Appendix 2: Why the standard chronologies are approximately correct, and why radical re-datings are therefore incorrect.
"More recently, the vulcanologists have claimed that the Santorini caldera formed quite gradually and that a tidal wave, if indeed there was one at all, would not have been on anything like the scale envisaged by Marinatos and other proponents of the link between the Theran volcano and the sudden decline of Neopalatial Crete."Gotta go for now.
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Santorini caldera formed quite gradually and that a tidal wave, if indeed there was one at all, would not have been on anything like the scale envisaged by Marinatos and other proponents of the link between the Theran volcano and the sudden decline of Neopalatial Crete."
Really? That is going to send us all back to the drawing board.
I just saw (two weeks ago) a new one hour long documentary on the Thera eruption and their data on the tsunamis that swept 'over' Crete and ended the Minoian(sp) civilization. They dated the tsunamis and the Thera eruption at 1645.
I think the 'jury' is still out.
Thucydides and Plato (sole ancient source of the Atlantis story) were nearly contemporary (Thucydides was somewhat older). Atalanta was a small, uninhabited island during Thucydides' time, was seized and fortified by the Athenians during the war, and suffered from a small tidal wave caused by an offshore earthquake. Even in the original it is clear that the association between the two phenomena is understood. At no time did this small island have a huge empire or even a large city, at least according to the ancient author cited. ;')The History of the Peloponnesian War"A similar inundation also occurred at Atalanta, the island off the Opuntian Locrian coast, carrying away part of the Athenian fort and wrecking one of two ships which were drawn up on the beach. At Peparethus also the sea retreated a little, without however any inundation following; and an earthquake threw down part of the wall, the town hall, and a few other buildings. The cause, in my opinion, of this phenomenon must be sought in the earthquake. At the point where its shock has been the most violent, the sea is driven back and, suddenly recoiling with redoubled force, causes the inundation. Without an earthquake I do not see how such an accident could happen."
by Thucydides
tr. Richard Crawley
The Internet Classics Archive
Daniel C. Stevenson
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The Future of the Past
Archaeology in the 21st Century
by Eberhard Zangger
That's what we love about you Civ.
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Catastrophism makes simple sense of things : )
Was reflecting on something..after googling up on the moon/Arcadia.
So ya...Velikovsky lists out the Ancient notaries who ref varied peoples who existed..and where *Ancient...before there was a moon.
We have some ref material to work with concerning the Sumerians.....Sitchen is a resource too..but the concern of his potential spin on words..and his theology construct.
In his Sumerian Etymological Dictionary and Comparative Grammar, Kálmán Gosztony, professor of Sumerian philology at the Sorbonne, demonstrated that the grammatical structure of the Hungarian language is the closest to that of the Sumerian language: out of the 53 characteristics of Sumerian grammar, there are 51 matching characteristics in the Hungarian language, 29 in the Turkic languages, 24 in the Caucasian languages, 21 in the Uralic languages, 5 in the Semitic languages, and 4 in the Indo-European languages. [*]
The Sumerian as a *post Catastrophism/migration reality?
the debate....showed up fully fledged in social net around 4000 BC....some comment they could go back to 8000 BC in some social form.
connected to this is the Accadians with their God *El.
So ya..the Moses period and the Law..El ref God can do...ie El-ohim..El -Shaddia etc.
amazing that this foundation /view would remain so long after the break up of the Sumerians.
just how far back does the Worship of El go?
all these fragments are tantalizing....
Several Ancient Hebrew works Redactly comment about Migration....Catastrophism is not really front and centre in the works though.
The Redactl seems to be focused/lofted upon keeping the societal Bond with *El Alive..accompanied by teaching construct.
Too bad the Library in Alexandria was destroyed...3 times?..anyhoo..there must have been ancient notary there...stuff Bronze age period would see as Ancient and mythological.
From where I sit...there does seem to be a reality of societal structure going way back....and yet...it has this rise/fall reality...with migration.
The Moon is something in the mix of all this....ie..no moon..then a moon.
I imagine impactors are part and parcell of the equation too.
Of note...The Mythological name assigned to Tiahuanaco -is City of the Falling Moon. : )
"The archaeologist in the Rudgley book got involved in researching clay figures that are found in the thousands all over Mesopotamian and other Middle Eastern sites dating from 8,000 to 6,000 BC. These are little clay geometric shapes, sometimes with odd markings, and later become a bit more complex, in shapes of animals, etc.
"It turns out that these were an early accounting system, as she discovered when she came across a clay 'envelope': a kind of egg-shaped jar containing about 26 of these clay tokens, with an inscription on the jar enumerating them and what they represented. (She calls it her 'Rosetta Stone'.)
"With some further research she was able to show how these geometric clay tokens came to be represented by line drawings that imitated their original shape as the ancient accountants (about as swift as their present day counterparts) eventually, after like thousands of years, realized they could use a two-dime method of counting sheep and wheat rather than the more cumbersome three-dime method."
Pumice floats; contrary to what some seemed to have claimed, there do not exist cubic kilometers of pumice stone from Thera; the ashfall is generally believed to have been carried SE by the winds.
The Future of the Past:
Archaeology in the 21st Century
by Eberhard Zangger
Austrian archaeologists in their excavations at Auaris on the Nile Delta have actually found a large quantity of pumice stone, which undoubtedly came from Thera. The stratification of the layers in which the pumice stone was found indicates a time around 1500 BC, between the reign-periods of the pharaohs Ahmose and Thutmosis III. [pp 50-51]
The Minoan ash and pumice layers are, by comparison, decidedly thin, and, in addition, they do not by any means cover the whole of the island group. [p 297]
IOW, this supposed huge eruption left its traces far more recently than the 1620s BC. Here are some of Bietak's Minoan finds, from "Minoan Wall-Paintings unearthed at Ancient Avaris":Addenda and Corrections to "The Exodus Chronicles"Recently, in relation to his ongoing excavation at Tell el Daba, which he believes to be the site of ancient Avaris, Manfred Bietak has rescinded his former assertion that the stratum in which Minoan artifacts, decorations and volcanic pumice were discovered belongs to the time of the pharaoh, Ahmose I. Bietak now concludes this stratum can be assigned to the reign of Thutmose III, instead. Bietak also dates the eruption of Thera to ca. 1500 BCE, in light of his new theory, and takes issue with those who place the cataclysmic event to about 130 years earlier. In brief, Bietak now wishes to eliminate any chronological problems connected with his newer theory. Even if he is correct and there was no volcanic blast in the Aegean at the time of King Ahmose, there still remains the unaccountably bad weather and flooding during his reign, as recorded by himself.
by Marianne Luban
And then there is the interesting premise of the Thera volcano devastation while a "Tethmosis" was pharaoh, two disasters having then occurred within a half century--or less.
Minoan art was widely popular during the heyday of that civilization. Here's a formerly prosperous site with a history of occupation stretching from the Middle Kingdom, through the Hyksos / 2nd IP, into the New Kingdom.Gallery 1
Gallery 2
Gallery 3
Helmi, EzbetFormerly called Tell el-Qirqafa. Amsterdam University survey of 1984 noted the presence of a quartzite block in the village, measuring 100 x (75+) x 17cm, pierced by a central square shaft. This site was probably the location of the Djadu of the 12th dynasty, found by Labib Habachi. Now the site is the focus of a major excavation by the Austrian Institute, working under cultivated fields some 800 metres west of their excavations at Tell ed-Daba. Major discoveries include Minoan wall paintings, an Eighteenth Dynasty palace, a Hyksos palace and water-supply system.
I thought you were hanging out with me at the Globe!
Who is gringo, really? You can tell me.......
Identification of Aniakchak (Alaska) tephraMinute shards of volcanic glass recovered from the 1645 ± 4 BC layer in the Greenland GRIP ice core have recently been claimed to originate from the Minoan eruption of Santorini [Hammer et al., 2003]. This is a significant claim because a precise age for the Minoan eruption provides an important time constraint on the evolution of civilizations in the Eastern Mediterranean. There are however significant differences between the concentrations of SiO2, TiO2, MgO, Ba, Sr, Nb and LREE between the ice core glass and the Minoan eruption, such that they cannot be correlatives. New chemical analyses of tephra from the Late Holocene eruption of the Aniakchak Volcano in Alaska, however, show a remarkable similarity to the ice core glass for all elements, and this eruption is proposed as the most likely source of the glass in the GRIP ice core. This provides a precise date of 1645 BC for the eruption of Aniakchak and is the first firm identification of Alaskan tephra in the Greenland ice cores. The age of the Minoan eruption of Santorini, however, remains unresolved.
in Greenland ice core
challenges the 1645 BC date
for Minoan eruption of Santorini
Nicholas J. G. Pearce
John A. Westgate and Shari J. Preece
Warren J. Eastwood
William T. Perkins
Fire in the Sea:
The Santorini Volcano:
Natural History and the Legend of Atlantis
by Walter L. Friedrich
tr by Alexander R. McBirney
first quarter 2005 bump:
Linear B Tablets and Mycenaean Social, Political, and Economic Organization
Lesson 25, The Prehistoric Archaeology of the Aegean
Revised: Friday, March 18, 2000 | Trustees of Dartmouth College
Posted on 08/29/2004 8:19:46 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
Hebrews, Israelites, Jews
Compiled by Brad Sparks
A diagnosis for a biblical plague?
Tomb could hold clue to Moses legend
By Charles M. Sennott
The Boston Globe
May 18, 2005
Article Last Updated: 11/26/2004 11:47:21 PM
The Reality of Ancient Catastrophism
The Cydonia Files | November 7, 2001 | Joe Schembrie
Posted on 11/07/2001 9:12:46 AM PST by JoeSchem
Biblical Plagues and Parting of Red Sea caused by Volcano
News.telegraph.co.uk | 11/11/02 | John Petre
Posted on 11/11/2002 12:44:06 PM PST by Betty Jane
Scientist Defends Account Of Exodus
Washington Post | 4-10-2003 | Richard N. Ostling
Posted on 04/11/2003 1:52:30 PM PDT by blam
Moses' Egyptian Name
Biblical Archaeology | 5-30-2003 | Ogden Goelet
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Digging Out The Truth Of Exodus
USN&WR | 10-20-2003 | Helen Fields
Posted on 10/12/2003 10:27:46 AM PDT by blam
Tomb May Shed Light On 10th Plague
Boston Globe | 11-23-2004 | Charles M. Sennott
Posted on 11/23/2004 6:11:43 PM PST by blam
The Ten Lost Tribes: The Case for Afghanistan, Kashmir, and Pakistan
Moshiach.com | current | moshiach.com
Posted on 09/24/2001 8:53:22 AM PDT by xzins
Egyptian Jurists Sue 'The Jews' for Compensation...
of Gold Allegedly Stolen During Exodus from Egypt
Memri.org | 8/09/03 | Dr. Nabil Hilmi,
Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of Al-Zaqaziq
Posted on 08/21/2003 12:48:59 PM PDT by adam_az
13th Century Tablet Could Lead To Lost Archives Of Ramses II
ABC News | 9-27-2003
Posted on 09/28/2003 9:31:05 AM PDT by blam
Nefertiti's 'Love Affair' With Moses to Hit the Silver Screen
Yahoo News! | Fri Apr 8
Posted on 04/08/2005 4:21:11 PM PDT by nickcarraway
3rd Millennium BC
Slam, bang, thanks Saddam: new meteor theory
The Sunday Telegraph via Sydney Morning Herald | 11/06/01 | Robert Matthews
Posted on 11/05/2001 7:38:35 AM PST by dead
Meteor Clue To End Of Middle East Civilisations
The Telegraph (UK) | 11-04-2001 | Robert Matthews
Posted on 01/03/2002 10:50:09 PM PST by blam
A Catastrophical Scenario For Discontinuities In Human History
Journal of New England Antiquities Research Association, 26, 1-14, 1991
First version published in 1985 as Quaderno 85/3
Emilio Spedicato - University of Bergamo
Posted on 04/19/2002 12:42:27 PM PDT by vannrox
Comets, Meteors & Myth: New Evidence For Toppled Civilizations And Biblical Tales
Science Tuesday/Space.com | 11-13-2002 | Robert Roy Brit
Posted on 08/11/2002 5:32:56 PM PDT by blam
Evidence for Major Impact Events in the late Third Millennium BC
Evidence of Astronomical Aspects of Mankind's Past and Recent Climate Homepage
FR Post 9-4-2 | Timo Niroma
Posted on 09/04/2002 4:48:54 PM PDT by vannrox
2nd Millennium BC
Sodom and Gomorrah are 'found at bottom of Dead Sea'
Source: Electronic Telegraph
Published: Sunday 26 March 2000 Author: By Jonathan Petre
Posted on 03/25/2000 20:24:34 PST by ironwill
Scientists uncover Sodom's fiery end
Source: BBC
Published: 18 August 2001 Author: Andrew Craig
Posted on 08/18/2001 11:32:11 PDT by AdrianZ
1st Millennium BC
Satellite Images 'Show Atlantis'
BBC | 6-6-2004 | Paul Rincon
Posted on 06/06/2004 10:00:25 AM PDT by blam
Catastrophic event preceded Dark Ages - scientist
Source: Reuters
Posted on 09/08/2000 10:06:44 PDT by VadeRetro
Warmer Periods In Alaska
Source: ScienceDaily.com
Published: 8-21-2001 Author: Hu, Brown & Engstrom
Posted on 08/21/2001 16:02:08 PDT by blam
The Dark Ages: Were They Darker Than We Imagined?
Universe | Sept 99 | Greg Bryant
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Evidence Of Tunguska-Type Impacts Over The Pacific Basin Around The Year 1178 AD
SIS Conference | Emilio Spedicato
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Astronomers unravel a mystery of the Dark Ages
EurekAlert | 3-Feb-2004 | Dr Derek Ward-Thompson
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Is Yahweh punishing the enemies of Israel with natural disasters?
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Treasure from the Deep: Drinking Water
BusinessWeek | MAY 1, 2003 | Jane Black
Posted on 05/02/2003 6:24:55 PM PDT by Willie Green
Santorini tephra from Rhodes
C. Doumas & L. Papazoglou
Department of Antiquities
National Archaeological Museum
Tositsa 1, Athens, Greece
"We describe here recent excavations at lalysos (Trianda) on Rhodes which have produced further evidence of the southeasterly distribution of the Thera tephra. Although a considerable amount of this tephra has been found there, this does not seem to have affected the continuity of life at the settlement, corroborating the view that the ash fall over Crete would have had little, if any, effect."
Oooh, a link here found somewhere else:
That was one of my (Mike Baillie's) favorite theories...I'm not sure I want to part with it yet. (Shoot!)
The Exodus dates to about 1450 BC, the actual end of the Middle Kingdom; meanwhile, the New Kingdom is dated centuries too high, having started during the reign of King Saul in Israel. The Thera eruption (the massive one) took place circa 22,000 years ago; the caldera seen today as the harbor was formed then. :')
The only major eruption in historical times dates to circa 200 BC, which goes a long way toward explaining how Herodotus (who lived before that) doesn't mention it, even though he talks quite a bit about Santorini / Thera / Calliste.
As consolation to you...
It also means that Plato didn't base his Atlantis story on the eruption of Thera, since A) it hadn't happened yet, unless one counts the 22,000 year BP major eruption, and B) never made sense in the first place.
I'm leaning toward SE Asia for the site of Atlantis these days.
Now, about Thera, I'm not gonna throw out the 1628BC date just yet. There's a lot of (other) supporting evidence for a major eruption at that time.
AFAIK, there isn't any supporting evidence anywhere for it. The stuff that got buried isn't from that long ago (not by a long shot); there's no evidence that the island was abandoned for a long time, and no human remains have ever been found; the houses appear to have been stripped bare, suggesting that earthquakes tipped off the residents that they'd better get out; there's no literary evidence for any eruption there (apart from the 200 BC eruption); there's not even a blown-out city core -- the caldera is prehistoric.
It's a little strange to me that the Thera eruption -- 22,000 years ago -- hasn't been fingered by someone out there as the cause, or a cause, or a contributing factor, of the most recent glaciation. :') I don't see it as such, but it's still strange that no one has.
There is ash and pumice in Egypt tied to Thera and dated 1628BC+- and a tsunami on Crete dated to 1645BC+-.
Sometimes the ice layers are compressed, melt together or completly missing. I think they are a very good indicator but not 'fool-proof.' We'll have more data within the next five years or so...
"There is ash and pumice in Egypt tied to Thera and dated 1628BC+- and a tsunami on Crete dated to 1645BC+-."There are deposits believed to be from Thera. The 1628 BC date is based on the ice core evidence, and that doesn't exist any longer. Depending on the depth (and remember, these deposits are not found in contexts by which they can be dated through ruins), they could be from 200 BC, or they could be from 22,000 BC.
Lighten up a little.
The volcanic eruption of the ancient Greek island of Thera was among the largest in thousands of years. Thera's blast collapsed its cone, producing a tsunami often blamed for the fall of the Minoan civilization on nearby Crete. Little scientific evidence for this theory existed until recently, when geologists finally uncovered proof that the tsunami's waves were massive when they hit Crete. They would have destroyed ports, crippled the maritime economy, and led to devastating crop failures, potentially catalyzing the Minoans' decline in subsequent years. Research into Thera's tsunami is ongoing.
This occurred within 50 years after the tsaunami hit Crete. Some suspect the 'hordes' were the Mycenes(sp).
Hey, I'm lighter than air. ;') Since the tsunami never existed in historial times, the hordes must have come first. :') The Mycenaeans were indeed the horde though. Regardless of what PBS says, there is absolutely no evidence of any tsunami in historical times on Crete, other than those of recent centuries, all of which were mild, and in each case caused by earthquakes. There's some ancient damage which could have been caused by earthquake.
One point I'm trying to make here is that the academics who promote the historicity of the huge volcanic eruption seize on anything and everything that seems to help, then when shown to be incorrect, retreat to another fallback position and pick up whatever else is around. It's not a scholarly approach, and reminds me mostly of the global warming demagogues, who keep retreating from one unsupported position to another, as the data continues to build showing that climate change is natural, that the oceans are not warming at depth, that sealevel isn't rising, etc.Akrotiri on Thera, the Santorini Volcano and the Middle and Late Cycladic Periods in the Central Aegean Islandsmost of the pumice from the eruption is found to the southeast of Santorini. The Greek Mainland and western Crete would have been altogether unaffected by the ash fall, but eastern Crete would have been covered by a maximum of ten, and more probably by between one and five, centimeters of fine pumice. Archaeologists eager to establish a correlation between the Theran eruption and the collapse of Neopalatial Crete feel that such a quantity of ash would have had a disastrous effect on agriculture in eastern Crete. However, others point out that such a relatively thin layer of pumice would have been eroded away by wind and rain within a year or two and would in fact enhance rather than detract from the fertility of the soil. A layer of Theran ash was identified in the late 1980's in some lake sediments in western Anatolia, indicating that the windborne dispersal of this ash had a much more northern and eastern distribution than previously suspected... Doumas in fact claimed that the collapse of the magma chamber and hence the appearance of the tidal wave was an event which postdated the volcanic eruption itself by a decade or more... More recently, the vulcanologists have claimed that the Santorini caldera formed quite gradually and that a tidal wave, if indeed there was one at all, would not have been on anything like the scale envisaged by Marinatos and other proponents of the link between the Theran volcano and the sudden decline of Neopalatial Crete... the simple facts are that the great earthquake which badly damaged Akrotiri is to be dated quite early in LM IA (either ca. 1650 or ca. 1560 B.C.?), that the entire town was buried in meters of volcanic ash still within the LM IA period (ca. 1625 or ca. 1550/1540 B.C.?), and that the wave of destructions (most of them including fires) which defines the end of the Neopalatial period on Crete and to which the palaces at Mallia, Phaistos, and Zakro all fell victim cannot be dated earlier than LM IB (ca. 1480/1470 B.C.?). Hood [TAW I (1978) 681-690] claims that clear evidence of the earthquake which so severely damaged Akrotiri before the town was buried is to be found at several sites on Crete where it is clearly dated to LM IA. More importantly, tephra from the later eruption of the Theran volcano has been found within the past decade in LM IA contexts on Rhodes (at Trianda) and Melos (at Phylakopi) as well as on Crete itself, ample confirmation that the eruption preceded the LM IB destruction horizon on Crete by a significant amount of time. Thus no direct correlation can be established between the Santorini volcano and the collapse of Neopalatial Minoan civilization.
Trustees of Dartmouth College
Bronze Age Aegean chap 17
Revised: Friday, March 18, 2000
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Mostly I'm updating the GGG information, and therefore not sending a general distribution.Akrotiri on Thera, the Santorini Volcano[T]he simple facts are that the great earthquake which badly damaged Akrotiri is to be dated quite early in LM IA (either ca. 1650 or ca. 1560 B.C.?), that the entire town was buried in meters of volcanic ash still within the LM IA period (ca. 1625 or ca. 1550/1540 B.C.?), and that the wave of destructions (most of them including fires) which defines the end of the Neopalatial period on Crete and to which the palaces at Mallia, Phaistos, and Zakro all fell victim cannot be dated earlier than LM IB (ca. 1480/1470 B.C.?). Hood [TAW I (1978) 681-690] claims that clear evidence of the earthquake which so severely damaged Akrotiri before the town was buried is to be found at several sites on Crete where it is clearly dated to LM IA. More importantly, tephra from the later eruption of the Theran volcano has been found within the past decade in LM IA contexts on Rhodes (at Trianda) and Melos (at Phylakopi) as well as on Crete itself, ample confirmation that the eruption preceded the LM IB destruction horizon on Crete by a significant amount of time. Thus no direct correlation can be established between the Santorini volcano and the collapse of Neopalatial Minoan civilization.
and the Middle and Late Cycladic Periods
in the Central Aegean Islands
Bronze Age Aegean chap 17
Trustees of Dartmouth College
Revised: Friday, March 18, 2000
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Geoarchaeology:p 158-159 -- "Artifacts from Akrotiri, linked to the Egyptian calendar [sic] put the Thera eruption at more than a hundred years later [than 1644 +/- 20 BC]. While the controversy remains open, it is our view that the volcanic activity recorded in the Greenland ice core more likely came from nearby Iceland than from the eastern Mediterranean (this may be testable by any chemical signature).
The Earth-Science Approach to Archaeological Interpretation
by George (Rip) Rapp, Jr. and Christopher L. Hill
p 166 -- "Living samples from a freshwater lake on limestone terrain have been known to give a radiocarbon date of up to 1600 BP."Debate erupts anew:In 1939, Spyridon Marinatos, a Greek archaeologist, proposed that the eruption wrecked Minoan culture on Thera and Crete. He envisioned the damage as done by associated earthquakes and tsunamis. While geologists found tsunamis credible, they doubted the destructive power of Thera's earthquakes, saying volcanic ones tend to be relatively mild... Despite the power of Thera, the Danish scientists' evidence raised doubts about its links to the Minoan decline. Their date for Thera's explosion, 1645 B.C., based on frozen ash in Greenland, is some 150 years earlier than the usual date. Given that the Minoan fall was usually dated to 1450 B.C., the gap between cause and effect seemed too large. Another blow landed in 1989 when scholars on Crete found, above a Thera ash layer, a house that had been substantially rebuilt in the Minoan style. It suggested at least partial cultural survival. By 1996, experts like Jeremy Rutter, head of classics at Dartmouth, judged the chronological gap too extreme for any linkage. "No direct correlation can be established" between the volcano and the Minoan decline, he concluded.
Did Thera's explosion
doom Minoan Crete?
William J. Broad NYT
Thursday, October 23, 2003
more about irrelevant radiocarbon results:
ARCHAEOLOGY: New Carbon Dates Support Revised History of Ancient Mediterranean
Science Magazine | 4/28/2006 | Michael Balter
Posted on 04/27/2006 7:59:30 PM EDT by Lessismore
Olive branch solves a Bronze Age mystery
Yahoo/MSNBC (Science) | 3:04 p.m. ET April 27, 2006 | Kathleen Wren
Posted on 04/28/2006 8:59:40 AM EDT by The_Victor
Debate Erupts Anew: Did Thera's Explosion Doom Minoan Crete?
International Herald Tribune | 10-23-2003 | William J. Broad
Posted on 10/23/2003 5:47:33 PM EDT by blam
oops, still more:
Ancient Volcano, Seeds And Treerings, Suggest Rewriting Late Bronze Age Mediterranean History (More)
Cornell University | 4-28-2006 | Alex Kwan
[b-hebrew] Ark of the Covenant...according to Sturt Manning, an expert on the matter, personal information to me, the Tel ed Daba pumice proves chemicaly not to be of Theran provenance, so it has no sense lowering the date of the Theran eruption.
Michael Banyai Banyai
Fri Aug 20 15:04:00 EDT 2004
The Theran eruption remains thus still cca. 1618 BC, and has nothing to do with the 18th dynasty.
The pumice came from the Kos volcano. Imagine that. Doesn't it seem likely that someone would have got that right in the first place, if they hadn't been saddling on every little thing as proof of a mega-eruption?The Thera (Santorini) Volcanic EruptionPumice at Tell el-Dab'a. Some pumice from the Minoan eruption of the Thera volcano has been found in an early New Kingdom (18th Dynasty) at Tell el-Dab'a, and not before. Thus Warren suggests (as has been suggested in several publications by Bietak and Warren from 1994-1998) that the eruption probably occurred about the same time... The pumice could either have been lying on the seashore for a long time before collection, or could come from post-eruption collection of pumice in the Aegean and subsequent trade to Egypt. It is certainly not necessary to regard the pumice as at all contemporary with the eruption... This scenario of potentially significantly later, post-eruption, use of the Theran pumice at Tell el-Dab'a finds some support in a recent scientific examination by Max Bichler et al. They report on the analysis of three pumice samples from Tell el-Dab'a. They found that only two of the three pumice samples analysed from Tell el-Dab'a came from the Minoan eruption of Thera. The third sample, in contrast, comes from another eruption. This third sample (Tell el-Dab'a3) is very similar to pumice found at Antalya, Turkey, and on the Greek island of Chios... This finding thus challenges the a priori assumption of special, contemporaneous, and unique use of Thera pumice and the idea that its use at Tell el-Dab'a can be seen as a chronological marker... Second, if one looks for another suitable, roughly contemporary, and chemically consistent, volcanic source, then one might speculate that a likely source of the pumice in the Tell el-Dab'a3, Antalya, and Chios, samples in the study of Bichler et al. could well be the Yiali (Nissyros) volcano in the east Aegean... POSTSCRIPT JANUARY 2000. The Tell el-Dab'a3 samples have now been identified as related to the Kos volcano (Peltz et al. 1999). The general argument about use of differing pumices of differing ages remains valid, nonetheless.
and the Absolute Chronology
of the Aegean Bronze Age
by Sturt Manning
Bietak, Manfred (2004),
"Review: Sturt W. Manning--A Test of Time (Oxbow, 1999)",
Bibliotheca Orientalis 61: 199-222.
saw this at:
Volcanic evidence around 1500 BCE.
Checking out major volcanic activity in the Mediterranean for those centuries turns up a major eruption of Mt. Etna listed as 1500 BC, +- 50 years. I have check out various Mt. Etna sites, but find very little information about this eruption, except it probably left a very large collapsed area like Mt. St. Helens. I think the name was Valle del Bove (sp?). I really wonder why scientists have not paid more attention to this eruption, as the severe decline of the Minoans took place around this time. I have seen an areal photo of a much smaller recent eruption of Mt. Etna with a pronounced plume being blown directly toward north Africa.
Other research I have heard of indicated that Santorini had several earthquakes and was evacuated about 20 years before the big one.
"I'm not sure I want to part with it yet."
Check out my comment #47, wherein I discuss the major eruption of Mt. Etna, 1500BCE + - 50 years. If anything is related to Exodus, that one is. Besides it may have been part of a much larger series of tectonic events aroung the Mediterranean and the Sinai. I think Exodus took place during the 18th Dynasty. I think that Hatshepsut may have been involved somewhere in the Moses story, or Amenhotep II, or both at different times. I am still working on those theories.
"I'm not sure I want to part with it yet."
Check out my comment #47, wherein I discuss the major eruption of Mt. Etna, 1500BCE + - 50 years. If anything is related to Exodus, that one is. Besides it may have been part of a much larger series of tectonic events aroung the Mediterranean and the Sinai. I think Exodus took place during the 18th Dynasty. I think that Hatshepsut may have been involved somewhere in the Moses story, or Amenhotep II, or both at different times. I am still working on those theories. At any rate I don't think Ramases II was involved. [My computer is acting weird, so pardon any double posts.]
It's not awake yet...and, I don't know what I'm doing up at this time.
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text:
Can anyone offer advice on this problem below please - the text book I'm working with doesn't have any problems like this and I need a solution asap. Thanks in advance.
Construct a mapping B:N → N (natural numbers) such that the equation
B(n)=3n² has exactly three solutions.
For which elements n E N is the solution solved? (solutions must be in N)
Thanks again. Kinda makes sense now.
I'm stuck on one final question if anyone can help.
"A set P is said to be smaller than a set Q if there exists a mapping from P to Q, but there does not exist a mapping from Q to P. The notation P < Q is used to denote that P is smaller than Q according to this definition. Prove that, given sets P, Q, and R, if P<Q and Q<R, then P<R."
Any tips on how to solve this?
Muchos gracias amigos.
It should read: "A set P is said to be smaller than a set Q if there exists an injective mapping from P to Q, but there does not exist an injective mapping mapping from Q to P.
There is always a mapping from Q to P but cannot be injective if Q is more numerous than P.
The proof of the question just involves composition of mappings.


text:
In celebration of the 35th anniversary of the release of the film All the President's Men (1976), the Ransom Center and the Lyndon Baines Johnson (LBJ) Presidential Library host a series of Watergate-related events. Two events on April 21 require free tickets. In the first panel at 2 p.m., prominent journalists and commentators explore the question "Could the media break a story like Watergate today?" Panelists include Peter Baker, Dana Priest, Mark Miller, Glenn Frankel, Bob Woodward, and Carl Bernstein. In the second panel at 6 p.m., Woodward, Bernstein, and Robert Redford discuss the film All the President's Men and its legacy. LEARN MORE about how to obtain tickets.
The exhibition Tennessee Williams, the College Years is on display at the Fine Arts Library at The University of Texas at Austin through July 31. All the materials on display are drawn from the Tennessee Williams collection at the Ransom Center and complement the larger Ransom Center exhibition, Becoming Tennessee Williams. Williams attended three universities—the University of Missouri, Columbia (1929–1932), Washington University, St. Louis (1935–1937), and the University of Iowa (1937–1938)—over a ten-year period before completing his Bachelor of Arts degree. The exhibition draws connections between the common activities, struggles, and emotions of a college student nearly 80 years ago and those of a twenty-first-century university student. VIEW MAP of the Fine Arts Building.
A plaster maquette of a bust of W. E. B. DuBois has been donated to the Ransom Center. The bust, which was sculpted by Walker Hancock (1901-1998), documents a step in the creative process for the final marble sculpture, which resides in Memorial Hall at Harvard University. LEARN MORE.
Tim O'Brien's novel The Things They Carried has been selected by the City of Austin Mayor's Book Club. The Ransom Center holds O'Brien's archive, and materials related to the novel are on display in the current exhibition, Culture Unbound: Collecting in the Twenty-First Century. LEARN MORE.
Members of the Ransom Center enjoy exhibition openings, events with the Director, complimentary parking at select events, private exhibition and collection tours, and the latest news of acquisitions, programs, and more. Our members receive a behind-the-scenes glimpse of the cultural wonders we keep secure for the future. VIEW VIDEO of members discussing what they enjoy most about their involvement with the Ransom Center.
With his plays The Glass Menagerie (1945) and A Streetcar Named Desire (1947), the American playwright Tennessee Williams (1911–1983) reinvented the theater. Drawing on the Ransom Center's extensive collection of Tennessee Williams manuscripts, correspondence, photographs, and artwork, this centenary exhibition explores the idea, act, and process of artistic creation, illuminating how Thomas Lanier Williams became Tennessee Williams. Williams asserted that most of his plays dealt with the "wild at heart kept in cages," a description, perhaps, of his own life. Throughout the exhibition, Williams's personal biography is compared and contrasted with the dramatic structure of his plays. LEARN MORE or VIEW VIDEO PREVIEW.
This exhibition commemorates the Ransom Center's tireless hunt for archives that will capture the imagination, invigorate scholarly research, and deepen our understanding of culture. Highlighting major acquisitions in this new century, the exhibition demonstrates how the Center builds a collection of interrelated archives that strengthen and give context to one another. The exhibition showcases materials from both major and lesser-known figures, from writers David Mamet, David Foster Wallace, and Don DeLillo to Brian Moore and Jayne Anne Phillips, from journalists Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein to acting teacher Stella Adler. The exhibition explains how archives come to the Ransom Center and how they contribute to our cultural history. LEARN MORE or VIEW VIDEO PREVIEW.
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 6, NOONREADING Poetry on the Plaza: Spring into Spring
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 6, 6 P.M.MEMBER EVENT Enjoy a night of special access to the Ransom Center at this insiders' open house and reception for new members. Invitation-only; RSVP or become a member today.
THURSDAY, APRIL 7, 7 P.M.PERFORMANCE Austin Shakespeare presents "Tennessee Transforming: Endings for Summer and Smoke," portraying Williams's struggles to revise the play he ultimately re-titled The Eccentricities of a Nightingale. Materials from the Ransom Center's Williams archive form the basis of this performance with Ann Ciccolella as director and Christina Gutierrez as dramaturge.
SUNDAY, APRIL 10, 2 P.M.PERFORMANCE Actors from Austin Shakespeare perform selections of Tennessee Williams's work. A docent-led tour of Becoming Tennessee Williams follows.
FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 7 P.M., JESSEN AUDITORIUMREADING Celebrate the release of David Foster Wallace's The Pale King. Join the Ransom Center for readings from the novel, followed by a reception and book sale. Wallace's archive resides at the Ransom Center. This event is held in conjunction with the Austin Public Library Friends Foundation's New Fiction Confab and BookPeople.
SATURDAY, APRIL 16, 2 P.M., LBJ LIBRARY AUDITORIUMSCREENING All the President's Men (1976) starring Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman, directed by Alan J. Pakula. The Woodward and Bernstein Watergate papers reside at the Ransom Center. More information may be found at www.lbjlibrary.org and www.hrc.utexas.edu/watergate.
THURSDAY, APRIL 21, 2 P.M., LBJ LIBRARY AUDITORIUMDISCUSSION Prominent journalists and commentators ask "Could the media break a story like Watergate today?" Seating is limited, and free tickets are required for entry. Ticket information may be found at www.lbjlibrary.org and www.hrc.utexas.edu/watergate.
THURSDAY, APRIL 21, 6 P.M., LBJ LIBRARY AUDITORIUMDISCUSSION Robert Redford, Bob Woodward, and Carl Bernstein discuss the film All the President's Men (1976) and its legacy in celebration of the 35th anniversary of its release. Seating is limited, and free tickets are required for entry. Ticket information may be found at www.lbjlibrary.org and www.hrc.utexas.edu/watergate.
MONDAY, APRIL 25, 7 P.M.HARRY RANSOM LECTURE In celebration of National Poetry Month, Pulitzer Prize–winning poet, essayist, translator, and current United States Poet Laureate W. S. Merwin reads from his work. A book signing follows. Presented by the University Co-op. Ransom Center members receive complimentary parking and priority entry. VIEW DETAILS.
FRIDAY, APRIL 29, 7 P.M.MEMBER EVENT After a curator-led tour of the exhibition Becoming Tennessee Williams, enjoy demonstrations of how to make some of the iconic cocktails from the era and works of Tennessee Williams. Local mixologists David Alan of Tipsy Texan, Bill Norris of Haddington's, and Adam Bryan will share insights and recipes during the event. Light refreshments will be served. Pre-registration and $20-per-person payment is required for this members-only event. To register, please call Amy Martin at 512-232-3669. Co-sponsored by The Austin Wine Merchant.
In honor of writer John Fowles's 85th birthday, the Ransom Center has displayed his desk in the reading room, with drawers open to reveal a selection of its fascinating contents. LEARN MORE about the desk, view a slideshow, and read an inventory of the desk's contents, including brass knuckles, pipes, and more.
IMAGE CREDITSMasthead image:(Detail) Cover of The Pale King by David Foster Wallace.News image:Cover of Parade Magazine with Robert Redford, Dustin Hoffman, Bob Woodward, and Carl Bernstein, April 18, 1976.Exhibitions image:Exhibition identity graphic for Becoming Tennessee Williams.Public Programs image:Cesare Bassano, 1584-1648. [Spring; first of a set of 4 engravings]. 1607.Insider's Perspective image:Undated photo of John Fowles at his desk.