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OP-ED: Does Final Fantasy XIII-2 Represent the End of Square, or a New Beginning?
While some see the latest chapter of the long-running RPG franchise as a failure, perhaps it's actually the start of a better future.
Earlier this week, Gamasutra published a scathing criticism of Final Fantasy XIII-2 penned by our colleague (and occasional Retronauts podcast guest) Christian Nutt. Though contextualized through an extended comparison to Red Letter Media's popular video critiques of the Star Wars prequel films, his commentary touched upon many of the same points and concerns I addressed in my own review of the game. Where our opinions differ, I think, is in our ultimate conclusion of XIII-2's merits (or lack thereof); I found the game flawed but a welcome step in correcting the series' course after two widely lambasted entries, while Christian feels it represents a deep, systemic rot at Square Enix's internal development studio.
I'm not too surprised by this turn of events. Christian and I rarely see eye-to-eye on most matters. So while I agree with his assessment of the underlying issues affecting FFXIII and XIII-2, my outlook on the company's future isn't nearly as dire as his. (I also disagree with many of Christian's assertions about FFXIII, such as the claim that lead protagonist Lightning lacked a demonstrable character arc, but that's neither here nor there.) From having spoken to FFXIII-2 director Motomu Toriyama and producer Yoshinori Kitase several times over the past couple of years, I get the impression that they're sincerely concerned about the series' direction and want to keep Final Fantasy relevant. From what I know of Square Enix's corporate culture, I also suspect that they're hobbled by the conservative nature of Japanese business, which can be slow to change when processes and standards that worked for years suddenly become ineffectual.
Rather than simply rebut Gamasutra's editorial, I'd rather examine a few thoughts that Toriyama and scenario director Daisuke Watanabe provided in an email interview conducted after I completed the game. I was left with my own complaints about XIII-2, most of which were explicated in my review, and hoped that I could find a little more clarity through an interview. Their responses offer interesting insight into the game, both through what the creators said and what they didn't say.
FFXIII-2's biggest shortcoming is, without question, its narrative. Not just in terms of story, but the manner in which the entire tale is presented. FFXIII featured a fairly strong cast of protagonists that fit together well enough to drive the plot. From the start, the game made clear the fact that Lightning, Sazh, and Snow were propelled by a common drive to rescue their loved ones from a living death, and their mission became bound to that of the other party members by virtue of a curse placed upon them by their world's "gods." The bizarre cosmology of that world was presented clearly, and the tension between the dual realms of Pulse and Cocoon along with their amoral, suicidal gods provided an acceptable background for the story. Though the tale often stumbled, especially in its ham-handed presentation, it worked well enough.
XIII-2's story doesn't work. While time-travel provides the primary hook for the narrative, the wherefores of its rules for jumping through the timeline and how events in different eras affect one another never make much sense. In fact, when I specifically asked Watanabe what the rules for the game's time-travel mechanics were, the totality of his response was, "This is more like a characteristic rather than a 'rule,' but, 'If you change the future, you change the past.'" To me, this suggests that the lack of clarity of in the game itself comes from a poorly considered story -- one in which the complexities of time-travel were never properly thought through. Even seemingly obvious details, like the way Hope and his assistant Alyssa pop up across the centuries at various stages in their careers but always appear to be 21 years old, undermine the bedrock of the game's premise.
Toriyama even concedes the shadow other time-travel works cast over XIII-2's development. "The subject matter of time travel has a treasure vault of masterpieces not limited to RPGs," he writes. "We were bracing ourselves to be compared to every possible piece of work. When we were building a comfortable time travel system for a high-end console -- for example contemplating what method would be the most appropriate to express moving through time with fancy visuals -- we continuously kept Chrono Trigger in the back of our mind and aimed to better the quality of the game."
You'd be hard-pressed to claim that FFXIII-2 offers any real improvements on Chrono Trigger, though. In that game, the party's ability to leap through time was well-defined, and the rules of causality played heavily into the story. Most of Chrono Trigger's side quests revolved around setting future wrongs right by journeying into the past; you could always be certain that by teaching someone the value of kindness or sowing forests in years gone by, the world of the future would become a better place. The results of your actions in FFXIII-2, on the other hand, feel haphazard. Sometimes your actions change the timeline (even in reverse, a phenomenon whose nature is never properly explained), but more often than not they simply create a better alternate reality to which major characters are shunted while minor NPCs continue to wander around beneath a cloud of doom and unhappiness. It seems the only way to enjoy a happy future in XIII-2 is to have been lucky enough to have been born with a unique character model.
The flaws of FFXIII-2's time-travel rules become even more obvious when the game directly mimics Chrono Trigger. The gameplay constraints of the older game were explained in an arbitrary but acceptable fashion by the omniscient narrator in the End of Time (a place outside of the normal flow of time), and they made sense in that context. When the party's time-travel adventures went awry, the reason for those errors was always self-evident. Not so in FFXIII-2; although it obeys similar rules to Chrono Trigger (up to and including the existence of an isolated fragment of reality in which time-travelers gone astray wash up), those laws are explained as needed by the party members themselves rather than an outside observer -- yet how mundane protagonists Serah and Noel (whose journey through time we see in its entirety from the moment it's foisted upon them) suddenly know the intricacies of temporal mechanics is never touched upon. Perhaps this is a small detail, but it demonstrates a lack of the essential consideration required to elevate the best time-travel tales to classic status. The nebulous rules by which the story operates diminish any tension that could have been instilled by its cliché-spouting villain; without definite stakes, the plot lacks a clear sense of urgency.
See Also
Final Fantasy XIII-2 Feels Like the Game You Wanted FFXIII to Be
Comments (165)
Not That DifficultPosted: May 20, 2012 12:00AM PST by Calibrator09
Enix's fallure doesn't need all that much analysis in my opinion. It boils down to they don't have the story telling talent they had before, and don't seem to think it's all that important. Stories will never be irrelvant, so I believe the author of this article spent a little too much time discussing Enix's problems with keeping up with expectations. Customers have expressed their expectations, a good balanced story with dynamic character development. Graphics and gameplay are welcome revisions, but have always taken a back seat to the story in Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy VII and Chrono Trigger (FF VI and IV too) had tight, well envisioned story lines. Graphics were as much a big deal in the SNES times as they are now. I believe this article is wrong about that, in the times before, Squaresoft managed to overcome that with a great story, caste and musical score with graphics more as a mild vehicle for conveyance. FF VII simply got everything right at once (or right enough anyway. Including graphics), and that's why it is so beloved. So there's your formula Square.
Dynamic Story + Memorable Diverse Character(Interaction and Development) + Moving Music and Scenes = Success. Add good graphics and revised battle system = A hit on the scale of FF VII (Without repeating the game itself)
Formula solved.
You don't need another FF VII or another Cloud or Sephiroth, you need a good writer and director who have a good gut about what they need to pull off the one thing people have not grown tired off for thousands and thousands of years . . . a good story. What you need is not rocket science, getting what you need is . . . a different story.
Sick of this Debate... can it be finished yetPosted: May 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by dwrayswez
For Final Fantasy 13 to suck so bad as every now says it does, it sure recieved rave reviews from just about nearly every critic out there when first released... It's a great game enough said and if you don't like it now that it's hated by all then seriously your just picking at straws... if it sucks so bad... quit talking about it and finally let it rest... by the Way Final Fantasy Vs. 13 will be Final Fantasy 15... just thought you would all like to know this... information to be revieled at E3.
Mr. Nutt is right...Posted: May 01, 2012 12:00AM PST by Absoluto_Veritas
I agree that Mr. Nutt's critique was, sadly, right. XIII sucked hard for a number of reasons. Hopefull Square-Enix gets its stuff together. I was weened on Final Fantasy and don't want to see it tank.
Nice to see Final Fantasy continuing it's downward spiralPosted: Mar 24, 2012 12:00AM PST by commiecatgirl
Most(all) the people who worked on the games that actually made the series popular in the 90s are long gone. Now the team just consists of moronic fans and fools with a large budget but absolutely no vision. They should just completely purge the staff every time they have a game which is a failure and try again.
Most accurate paragraphPosted: Mar 22, 2012 12:00AM PST by bradezone
...was this:
Nevertheless, I see a silver lining in FFXIII-2 despite its issues, because its messy narrative is bound together by excellent gameplay. The battle system is elegant yet frenetic, and the skill trees and monster-capturing components offer genuine choice without feeling overly complex or fussy. The game's mechanical successes, I suspect, explain the different conclusions Christian and I have drawn from our experiences with the game: He's a highly story-oriented RPG fan, while I care mostly about mechanics and consider a good video game plot an unexpected bonus. FFXIII-2's story is not good, and its Halo 2-level unresolved ending is a slap to the face of anyone who makes the mistake of caring about it. But it plays incredibly well, and to me that speaks of a fundamental competence -- a promising base for building a future, for correcting its course.
That's how I approach the FF series--for the fun of the combat system. And I give SE great credit for changing things up every single time. I don't feel like providing my own long-winded defense of the FF series, but all I can say is that in recent weeks I have played both XIII (for a second time) and XIII-2 again and really enjoy them both tremendously, despite a few imperfections (mainly all of Vanille's dialogue). Meanwhile I purchased the much-hyped Skyrim, played it for a few days, but simply could not get into the battle system (very repetitive and shallow) or the same recycled western-RPG character designs. Yes, Caius Ballad is a giant fruit in both appearance and name, but at least he's more interesting than the same old D&D tropes of western games.
Just for context, my top 5 FF's in order are: 6, 7, 12, 4, 13/13-2
yepPosted: May 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by dwrayswez
That's what I say... The battle System is fantastic, and the story compelling enough to keep you playing to the end. Gran Pulse was a thrill to play and I spent 130 hrs on the title before my PS3 fried... so FF13 hasn't any problems in my book. Just regret I'll never be able to play 13-2..
I Can See FFXV Now....Posted: Feb 29, 2012 12:00AM PST by adidaas
It's gonna be all turn based, set in medieval era, and be a giant open world because that's a "true" Final Fantasy Game. Just so SE can shut up their fans for once.
Get rid of the review scalePosted: Feb 23, 2012 12:00AM PST by Lonecow12
Again, this game is proof as to why video game review fail.
I think Jeremy is awesome. He's my favorite video game comentator, but he gave FF XIII a perfect score, something you can tell he regrets but has to accept. Whenever anyone brings up what a failure FF-XIII was he has to remain quiet to stand by his words.
Then he reviews FF XIII-2, and gives it a lesser score that the orignal while saying it improves on something he already gave a near perfect score. It doesn't make any sense. He clearly didn't want to be in the same boat as last time when people complain about XIII-2's flaws and he has to be the guy who gave it a gushing review. But now we have two reviews done by the same person where the sequel is being regarded as a better game but has a lower score than the original.
Just tell me if a game is worth playing or not, I'm really over listening to the intricacies of a game review that is basically positioning and hyperboyle. Or, probably easier, just get rid of the number scale, or do a thumbs up and thumbs down.
The whole number review scale just seems infantile and immature at this point. Arguing over a B+ or an A- or a 7.5 and a 7.8. Really? I'm over it.
The mistake square made (is making)Posted: Feb 20, 2012 12:00AM PST by jamaican_gamer
Was to change the FF formula to begin with.You cant please everybody and for those who were(is ) complaining that FF fantasy was becoming old and was bickering that it should play like western rpgs should just have played western rpgs instead.I for one is not a fan of western rpgs but ypu wont hear me complaining... i just play what i like which is JRPGs..so i say to square give me the FF of old.. with its flashy graphics,long summon spells and all that defined it as FF..those who dont like that kinda stuff can play skyrim or mass effect and stop bitching.
Haters gonna hate..Posted: Feb 20, 2012 12:00AM PST by burywhite
Final Fantasy hasn't been this fun for me since twelve. I give XIII-2 a 9 for those annoying clock puzzles and random luck quiz questions if it weren't for those I would give it a ten. Other than that brilliant game and I really hope for XIII-3. Also, if you can't follow the story maybe you should read more cause it's all there.
FF is already dead in my bookPosted: Feb 07, 2012 12:00AM PST by nehebkau
The franchise died with FFX. I don't know what drugs they took before they wrote the story for that game. I mean really... stupid is the only word that really comes to mind.
But what really killed it was voice acting. HAHAHA HAHA HAHAHAHA is all I have to say (damn that was painful to sit through). And really, FF storys always have been really corny/cheesy but when you get people to say those lines... it's just even worse. When it was all just written it's a lot less cheesy in a way.
I know they have to go with the times, but then please just don't make an english dub... or let us choose if we want japanese with subtitles or the dub. That shouldn't be too hard... At least then I won't want to throw up in every cut-scene.
Now I'll go play FFIX to cheer me up again.
Sad but truePosted: Feb 11, 2012 12:00AM PST by evildog13
I agree. FFX was lame in so many ways and the series has never managed to rebound . Although I kind of actually liked FFXII, it felt more like an expiramental prequal to FF Tactics instead of a true FF sequel. I was late to the game in getting a PS3 and am just 20 hours into FFXIII. I was already expecting the worst and I must say it not nearly as bad as everyone has made it out to be. But it still does not have that FF charm or vibe that was so strong in the first 9 games. Sadly a lot of my favorite series seem to be disappearing out right or through desperate sequels that have lost site of what the series should be. (Contra, Castlevania, Suikoden, Breath of Fire) R.I.P.
re: re: re:Posted: Feb 06, 2012 12:00AM PST by jonnyjones72
-The visual design of the game's characters is very much Japanese -- though I don't pretend to know if the way that country's character designs gravitate toward the exotic and impractical is rooted in culture, in teen trends, or even in some off-kilter focus-tested misperception of what gamers want. -
The answer is culture, with a little bit of teen trend that's simply a follow-up to traditional culture. Remember, this is the country that invented the 'geisha' - a human painting designed to serve and please even the most average of men.
I've been living in Japan for almost six years, and everyday I'm still shocked by the array of attire. Ultra-dapper business men with shoes that shine like jewels or uber-hipster emo punks with platinum blonde hair extensions and cyberdisco platform shoes. And that's just the men! The average woman dresses like the 21 century equivalent of a geisha. Take any woman from the streets of Japan, transplant them in the west, and everyone would assume them to be a prostitue.
It's not merely about fashion, it's about effort. School girls wear short skirts, even in winter. If you ask them if they're cold they'll say no, even though they are. The teens over here are freaks, and the old farts with comb-overs will out old fart even the crumbiest of geezers in the west. Massive cultural schism between the generations over here. And not a whole lot in between.
FF 13-2 is good example of the virtues and issues with Japanese culture. I wouldn't call it a conversvative society, not by our definiton, maybe hyper-collective. There is nothing wrong with change, so long as everybody changes at the same time. There's no way one single director or lead programmer of Final Fantasy would single handedly revolutionize their prized IP, even though they kind of need to right now. That's not how Japan works. They work as a collective, and don't want to get ostracized from their groups by thinking too big or too out of the box. One person might think out of the box, but only if everyone goes with them, at the same time, leaving the box behind, burning it for fuel and then making a new box they can all sit in together. Change comes slowly over here, not because they don't want to, but because they don't want to do it alone.
There's so much more I could write about this. But FF 13-2 is right about what anyone could expect from an older generation of Japanese game developers.
...Posted: Feb 05, 2012 12:00AM PST by sprode
A deep, systemic rot to simplified stereotypes, lazy writing, and a game that plays itself. Not fun.
At the very least they need to go back and relearn how to write convincing protagonists and antagonists that act like human characters. Drop the convoluted plot holes. Make me care again. Even then I might be able to tolerate how disinterested I feel in the combat.
No more emo shemales with big swords and no more dropping in Vaan and Penelo to appease a Western audience.
Wait, what?Posted: Feb 06, 2012 12:00AM PST by Captain_Sandwich
I thought the creation of Vaan was specifically to cater to the Japanese, in the same way that Nier was different between its North American and Japanese versions.
Didn't I hear somewhere that the Ivalice Alliance head had wanted the rest of the cast to stand alone - generally older, adult characters? Supposedly Vaan and Penelo were introduced because Japanese players traditionally want younger heroes (around 25 and younger). I can easily believe that, when I look at 99% of anime/manga/games/J-pop...
I thought Vaan and Penelo were tolerable.Posted: Feb 07, 2012 12:00AM PST by dumbdrunk01
If you had to compare them to Tidus and Yuna or the entire cast of XIII, wouldn't you be pleased with a Vaan or Penelo. Besides, the rest of XII's cast more than made up for them. XII suffered from not having a great story, but the writing and voice acting were the best in the entire series.
Its fun, kupo!Posted: Feb 05, 2012 12:00AM PST by respect_cartman
I personally have no problem with this game. it is completely enjoyable, and Mog rules :D
Interesting articlePosted: Feb 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by omegawyrm
Nice job on the article Jeremy, very insightful. On the podcasts you've been sounding awfully cynical about gaming lately, so it's nice to hear something a little more positive. It's always nice to read something that seems like it's by an actual person that lives in the real world and has realistic opinions and expectations, which happens so rarely on the internet.
I agreePosted: Feb 06, 2012 12:00AM PST by Captain_Sandwich
But the way I see it, this is an icredibly balanced article. There's no crushing focus on the pros or cons, instead listing both and considering them equally. This article doesn't seem biased even for a franchise that's almost completely defined by fanboyism, and that's a real achievement.
Been playing since Tuesday...Posted: Feb 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by jeffokiecorry
And I am really enjoying it. I am about 12 hours in. I have felt pretty interested most of the time. The battles have been pretty fun for the most part. I love that I can have 5 atb slots at this point. I am probably half way and I haven't felt that the story is lacking...but I can follow Kingdom Hearts pretty well.
Snow is still annoying, but I like it. The game even points out how annoying he is. Hope is actually kind of interesting and Noel and Serah are alright. My opinion.
The music is great. The graphics are incredible. (Of course this is from a guy who loves retro games...)
Is it Final Fantasy VI all over again. No. But I already have that game several times over. This is Final Fantasy XIII-2 and it's pretty awesome in my opinion. But I am a JRPG lover...so take it with a grain of salt. ;)
I just gotta say..Posted: Feb 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by dudebro77
That as a pretty big fan of rpgs in general and of Final Fantasy in particular, I really appreciate what SE is doing. They are trying new things and doing some things really well for which I really commend them. I prefer to focus on what games do right than what they do wrong but its all subjective. I read all the comments after reading every article on FF all across the webs and I can tell you opinions differ WILDLY. Everyone likes somthing different and everyone has different opinions. You will rarely find a group of people who favor the same entries and most people enjoy different things about the games. I personally really liked 13 and Im playing 13-2 now and really really enjoying it! I love Mog, I love Chocolina, I love the two lead characters, they are all just really well written and very VERY well voiced. yes even mog and chocolina, they both have lines that have seriously made me lol. THe game is just plain fun to PLAY. And THAT gets a ten in my book.
Right with you!Posted: Feb 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by jeffokiecorry
I am LOVING it. Just finished up the first Academia episode. Glad to see someone else enjoying it. I've been a fan of Final Fantasy since the NES/SNES...and while this one is different...I think it is good.
There you have it.
indeedPosted: Feb 05, 2012 12:00AM PST by fireysoul
This game is amazing. I have yet to get tired of anything in this game. Huge improvement over its predecessor. Best soundtrack I've heard in a long time. Mog is great and chocolina is a crazy ass b*tch. I love this game. Finally another sick non-mmo Final Fantasy game.
The battle system is pretty in-depth...Posted: Feb 07, 2012 12:00AM PST by Malakhim3
...Auto-battle if anything is just a crutch for those who'd rather focus mostly on seeing shit go crazy on the screen, but if you want to maximize combat efficiency, you're gonna have to go manual, as letting the AI do whatever it wants ain't gonna cut it. You'll need to prioritize buffs,debuffs, keep in mind enemy and ally attack animations(there are hitboxes in this game!?), knowing exactly when to switch paradigms to buffer abilities, gain ATB refreshes and make the most of chain boosts. There is nothing simple about this game just because it has "auto-battle".
I beat the game yesterday, and the story and ending were both very satisfying, and I hope against hope that we'll be getting a sequel. They took a relatively unimportant(but still important) "damsel in distress" character and turned her into a compelling, torn, and competent heroine. Noel has his own tragic moments as the last person alive in a future 700 years from after Cocoon's fall. Caius is probably now my second favorite FF villain because of his character's depth(think Sephiroth, but more focused and less stupid). I've seen 2 of the 9 endings, and one of them was just bloody hilarious(featuring our favorite moogle as the star, kupo!).
I would say that the larger focus on free-form gameplay sort of left an incoherent sting not unlike the feeling I get from WRPGs as a whole, but even that was taken care of relatively quickly. All and all, the game is great and I'm excited about the new DLC chapters incoming. Looks like SE is trying to turn the FFXIII series into something big with a prequel and sequel novel happening for FFXIII-2, and the game did a fair amount of world and lore building itself. Here's to more FF!
Played the Demo....Posted: Feb 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by DarkHalo003
...and I think Square in back on track. Played this demo for 2 hours and enjoyed it greatly once I figured out how to play. I never played Chrono Trigger, so for me this is all gold. Square is trying to cater to other players and not just long-time fans as well, so even if Chrono-fans feel jipped, people who haven't played Chrono Trigger are definitely in for a fresh treat. I can't wait to buy/rent/errr this game in the future. Definitely worth the time I played.
Make a gamePosted: Feb 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by ScatPants
That plays like Lost Odyssey and I will buy it day one. Best RPG this generation.
Yeah, it didn't do well...Posted: Feb 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by dumbdrunk01
but it was more of a final fantasy than XIII or it's joke sequel will ever be.
You mean it was an "older" FF game than XIIIPosted: Feb 06, 2012 12:00AM PST by Captain_Sandwich
I love the shit out of Lost Odyssey, but dude, yeah. The mechanics are archaic.
Swapping rings out for the first 2/3rds of the game was tedious, and timed button presses call Legend of Dragoon to mind (I liked LoD too, but that's what? 1998?).
At the end of the day, I think the only thing that's constant is change...our cars aren't the same as they were 20 years ago, neither is our medicine, our television, our music; I'll always appreciate the attempt to find greatness in experimentation rather than promoting stagnance by clinging to "dogma."
asdfsdPosted: Feb 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by Sabotender
i just wanted to point out that the audio channels in that video are swapped. lol
Sad.Posted: Feb 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by Xephon
It's sad to think this is the same company that made FFXII (and ruined it from being a real masterpiece with it's executive meddling). Said meddling also seemingly getting rid or driving away it's most talented designers/writers/composers. So. freaking. sad.
Evolution is keyPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by benjmnbwolfw00d
Eventually Square Enix will adapt and continue this franchise. I actually enjoyed all the final fantasy games. The only one I wasn't so high on was Final Fantasy 9 cause of the whole junction system. Besides that it's been a worth while franchise.
not all FF is created equalPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by invidcyborg
Right now FF is for the younger crowed, and even then it's mediocre. There are some many great games out there now that being fixated on FF or SqrE for that matter is not worth it.
How to win me back, get out of the Kingdom Hearts phase, get into some mature and grusome subject matter. On that note get the characters out of the big zipper anime convention costumes.
ok, here is a more precise statementPosted: Feb 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by invidcyborg
Square Enix has proven that a bad narritive can crush a solid programmed game with detailed visuals.
Thanks for ignoring the trollPosted: Feb 06, 2012 12:00AM PST by Captain_Sandwich
You're doing a fantastic job!
Good ReadPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by Umei
THe Final Fantasy series has been there throughout my gaming life. I can honestly say I like each individual title ( excluding XI and XIV) for what they are. I could sit back all day and discuss which FF was better than the other, or which was the worst of the bunch, or whatever. I believe the franchise has been ultimatley good up to this point and that's what matters to me.
XIII-2 is a better improvement and I applaud Square Enix for adressing issues many complained about in XIII. I haven't gotten far so I can't really say too much about the plot ,but its light hearted and I think some of the ideas are cool.
Alot of people want the next IV, VI, VII, ect. However, even if Square went back to the roots, people will still complain that it needs change. Thats saying Im not against bringing back old elements like say airships or something but to play exactly like the old games...idk (no random battles!! lol)
Anyway, I'll continue to support Square :p. Great job with the article guys!
This again...Posted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by sakusakusakura
Every time a Final Fantasy game comes out, 1up says it's the end of Square and every Japanese game company is going out of business.
I wish Square-Enix would take a deep breath, and look at FFIV.Posted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by Fyrebrand
Not that I want them to make a copycat game that steals characters and plot elements from their older titles, but I wish they'd just take a look at some of their better games in the series and examine what made them work.
I mean, if you just do a quick skim of some of the parts of FFIV's story, you get stuff that is infinitely more intriguing and exciting than anything in XIII or XIII-2. Cecil voices his doubts about the morality of his orders, and suffers the consequences. His actions result in the murder of a young girl's mother/village, and he takes it upon himself to protect her despite her initial hatred of him. His best friend betrays him. An old man's lust for revenge over the death of his daughter results in his own demise. The list goes on, and each of these scenarios are relatable and human. They really offer a sharp contrast compared to the opaque, metaphysical nonsense of having to kill and/or save some robot baby named "Orphan," or the idea that the Fal'Cie can just magically force a person to accept a quest by tattooing them and turning them into monsters if they don't comply, or people turning into a giant pillar of crystal that supports a small planet. All throughout FFXIII, I was unclear as to what the boundaries of Coccoon were, or even if anyone really lived there at all. The way people talked about the empty wilderness of Pulse, I thought I was already there half the time.
When they were designing the characters of FFIV, they created people who actually inhabited the world and had lives in it. The characters look like they belong in their fantasy setting, and the writers weren't afraid to feature a range of ages.
Then you get to XIII-2, and you have a character like Noel. Now, to be fair, I'm not very far into XIII-2 yet, so perhaps part of this is explained -- but, for someone who is apparently from a time when civilization has completely collapsed and people are all dead from starvation, he should NOT look like that. I mean, the guy could have starred in FFVIII or Kingdom Hearts, and no one would have questioned it. Watanabe's comments on the process of designing Noel are either the ravings of a madman, or someone who just wants to spout artistic-sounding words that he himself doesn't understand.
I agree.Posted: Feb 04, 2012 12:00AM PST by Azel2020
He should be in rags or at least pretty dirty. Would it kill Square to hire an alternate character designer? Why does everyone alwasy have to be so pristine and clean. I really liked how Nathan Drake got progressively more roughed up and dirty over the course of Uncharted 3. Why can't Square do something like this in their games?
Square Enix's Production Cycle is Old and Tired...Posted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by Oniji
"The rules and standards that worked in the PlayStation era are well past their sell-by date, but the entire Final Fantasy production cycle -- and, on many levels, Square Enix as a whole -- has been built around the techniques and processes that worked two hardware generation ago"
I whole-heartedly agree with this. You need only look to see what happened with FFXIV's development to see how unwilling Square Enix is to evolve from their old methods and practices.
The industry has made leaps and bounds in all aspects of game development since FFXI was released. But for some reason, SE appeared to have been oblivious to them when they started development on FFXIV. Either that, or they were too proud (or stubborn) to acknowledge these advancements. I'm talking about basic things here. Mail system. Auction House. Functional User Interface. General Keyboard and Mouse functionality. Working camera system. Core mechanics that players have come to expect from new MMOs (and with good reason). It is almost as if they have either been inside a bubble or purposely went out of their way to avoid these fundamental game mechanics.
I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the game development culture in Japan. I remember an article over a year ago of a producer from Capcom (i think it was) that mentioned how there was enormous pressure for management to play it overly safe and not stray too far from a "proven" formula (in this case, the "proven formula" for them is FFXI), and he even went so far as saying that Japan game development was dead.
It took them releasing a extremely unfinished game and then to have a mass exodus of its fanbase to finally realise that they are going to have to evolve - just like everyone else - to survive. I only hope that they can make good with their promises of FFXIV 2.0 or this might be the last MMO we see from this developer.
WhatPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by grooveygr
What are you talking about evolve?
Its because SE change and evolved the FF series that it sucks now.
FF6-10 were awesome, and they each had similiar gameplay and epic stories, badass villians.
SE decided to evolve and change the formula's that worked , and because of this they suck now at making FF games.
DisagreePosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by grooveygr
Ever heard of "if it aint broken, dont fix it"?
Thats the problem with SE. Why did they have to change the turn based battle system and formulas which worked, they could have changed it a little but not drastically like what they did with FF6-10.
@^ and in generalPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by mintiecat
And then we would have fans that would complain THAT it doesn't change. Look at TLOZ fanbase.
Either way, no one asked for this sequel, much less them trademarking FFXII-3 (probably going to make some cheesy game that connects Versus to FFXIII.) I only want Versus and I'm out, it's annoying at what SE has become, throwing out spin-offs instead of working on an actual coherent game. And each interview that deal's with the XIII team, someone always states they were never clear with each other. This game should have been a DLC not a full 60$ game.
It would be nice to go back to basics, but please no more cheesy storylines/dialogue/ and love stories.
I just wantPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by ScatPants
A good story with fun tactical battles, not this incomprehensible garbage with automated combat. I honestly don't care about anything that happens in these new Final Fantasy games, it's just a bunch of characters in clown suits crying about their feelings. Where did all the adventure go?
Come on SE; I still have faith...Posted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by Rennik_Repotsir
But my wallet doesn't... and if you don't start doing research on what made the tired two popular enough that remake demands are as annoying as sandspurs and socks, I don't think it ever will again...
RootsPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by grooveygr
SE need to go back to the roots of FF.
Remember when a new FF game was the talk of the town, a sounding call for all kids to rush to the nearest store and cast their vote prematurely for game of the year? Those days are gone. But FF XIII-2 is an okay game anyway (not good enough for an FF, but WTH the standards of the series has gone down). Better, in fact, than the last eight years of Square Enix's attempts to "update" (or ruin) their games. It won't escape from the scrutiny the series has received constantly in these years, and a lot of that has to do with the wooden characters. I actually remember when the cast of FF evoked real emotion...
@grooveygrPosted: Feb 06, 2012 12:00AM PST by Captain_Sandwich
Hey. Remember baseball cards? Roller Skates? A slew of bad cop shows? How about terms like "colored people?" Shit's always broke, and can always be fixed, with very few exceptions.
This is Final Fantasy, not Chess, Checkers or Go.
Are you stealth's alter-ego? Fyrebrand did a much better job of describing things...
Re: FFXIII-2Posted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by c_anthony
I'm ashamed to say that I was one of the ones who pre-ordered Final Fantasy XIII. To be fare, even after I realized how much I disliked it, I forced myself to finish the game so I'd be able to write an accurate review (what a task finishing it was too). The only thing I could praise the game for was it's graphics. When Square-Enix said that something like 80% of the budget had gone into the graphics, they meant it, and it was readily apparent as the rest of the game was complete garbage.
FFXIII-2 seems to be Square-Enix's attempt at apologizing to the fans while, at the same time, failing to learn from many of their mistakes. There are some parts of the game I'm noticing where it's even worse than XIII, such as areas locked until you purchase DLC, a huge no-no in my book.
I don't know about you, but I've lost any faith I had in Square-Enix's ability to deliver a quality Final Fantasy title. As far as I'm concerned, the series is dead.
ButPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Keefman -X-
I liked Lords of Shadow...
You're not alone.Posted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by Nachtritter
I loved Lords of Shadow.
And anotherPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
I thought it was a fun game, and I've played just about every meaningful Castlevania release.
Really?Posted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by Apollo_Helios
30+ hours of af a God of War clone? Really? One the few games I actually wanted to be shorter. It dragged itself out so hard. Hope you liked collect-a-thons and playing levels 6 different times to get all the stupid trinkets!
Just because Patrick Stewart was in it doesn't make it good.
AnotherPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by Crowy
I felt Lords of Shadow had a lot of characer and style. The story was passable, but the gameplay and level design were all good.
I also really liked the pacing of the game as the build up to every major boss felt palpable.
I look forward with Castlevania in terms of how they will improve upon what they started with Lords of Shadow.
@Apollo_HeliosPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by Crowy
I agree that there were a lot of elements lifted from God of War, but I enjoyed it for a different character and setting.
I have played most of the God of War games and I enjoyed them to an extent. I am glad that God of War was made in the first place, as it redefined the action platform game. But I don't want every action platform game set in Greece with the hero Kratos; that would exhaust that franchise.
Games similar to God of War, like Lords of Shadow and Darksiders, have been welcome entries in action/platforming. Similar but distinct. While they have not been entirely innovative, they have still been a lot of fun to play.
ApolloPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
Like Crowy said, "While they have not been entirely innovative, they have still been a lot of fun to play."
I dont agree with anything they talked about.Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Mattuu
1st off...
Chrono Trigger is time only.
FF13-2 is time and possibilities... This means it's more like chrono cross if anything.
Let's stop comparing games to random stuff like back to the future and chrono trigger, because it doesn't make sense. ( WOW THEY DEAL WITH TIME TRAVEL, DHUR )
13 wasn't a bad game. I personally didn't mind the linerity. I do agree that its combat skills should of been learned around the 2 hours mark rather than the 20. FF13-2 makes me like 13 even more now because of the story it set up for the games to come.
I just beat the 13-2 and enjoyed it. I predicted what was going to happen and it really isn't that far different from 10 when you think about it. So the whole, "this game doesn't make sense" is for people who can add 1+5=89234
Well for all of you guys that are still on your FFVII Nerd-Tricycle, hop off it and learn to accept other stories that don't deal with mako and materia..
ramble ramble ramble
I'm spent
wow... read page 2Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Mattuu
that whole nonsense about zelda and megaman is 100% wrong... They praised mario to sticking to its roots even though megaman did the same thing..
As for metal gear Hideo didn't wasn't working on the next metal gear... He almost wanted to cancle the project but decided outsourcing it so it could still be a game.. The next one hideo makes is going to be batshist crazy.
HMMMPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by xWhackoJacko
I'm having fun with the XIII-2 so far. After reading a lot of the reviews saying the story was a bit ridiculous, I actually find it pretty simple to follow, albeit weird.
The combat is still fast paced and exciting, even for the lack of input, and I definitely like the monster aspect (although, it gets rather overwhelming being someone who doesn't like to "sac" a monster until its reached its full potential, thank god for early bloomers lol).
The sidequests aren't really all that exciting, and rarely lead to anything of worth (at least so far, 20 hours in). The customization for your characters is definitely better through the crystarium. I still don't find many uses for Sentinel though, just like XIII. The death metal boss music was a laughable surprise being a fan of the actual genre.
As far as the direction Square is going, I really don't know. They haven't impressed me or gotten me super excited for one of their titles since IX, and while most of the games beyond that have been pretty good (not counting the MMOs), I just don't get that whimsical awesomeness I used to from the older titles. That could be me maturing as a gamer, or me simply losing interest in ultra-fantasy realms. I don't think it's either of those though.
I don't want to Square to completely just reboot their style of games from 20 years ago. That does nothing for the genre. Would it calm the masses and make them buttloads of money? You bet it would. And as much as they say they wont, I guarantee thanks to the failure of XIV they WILL remake VII. But, while I say I don't want them to completely emulate past games, I think they need to still use what made the older games great. What that is varies from game to game and gamer to gamer, but still. I really never thought I'd see the day where a game from Square actually took the backseat to a game by ATLUS.
TL;DR - XIII-2 is fun if you liked XIII. It's a step in the right direction for the XIII series, but I don't think it's a place I personally want Square to stay. They need to innovate, but still stick to their roots. Easier said then done I suppose.
correctPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by AdeptRogue7
13-2 is a step in the right direction for the 13 series but i dont want them to stay in this place either.
Flawed gamesPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by AdeptRogue7
The promblem with flaws in games is that they all have flaws in them, there are main flaws that almost everyone agreee on then there are opinion flaws . now ff13-2 had flaws but that dose not make it a bad game period. if you didn't like it thats fine but dont go calling it a bad game overall. just say you didn't like it. calling it a peice of s*** is gonna do nothing but bring about the people that did like the game to stand guard and take you on like you was the final boss of a ff game XD. im not finished with 13-2 but from what i can tell its story is not compelling .and....well thats it imo. i like the battle system people say all u do is push X . well thats all u really did in other ff's as well. FFX u had the basic turn base system. u can choose your magic, item, or just plain attack. the twist was that u can switch character at anytime which made the game really fun. ff13 had the almost basic atb system but insted of choosing one action to happen u can choose mutiple actions. the other twist was that u can switch role's during combat.. now how is that a bad battle system??? because of the autobattle??? from my understanding that was put there for the new players coming to ff. now i think that SE should of put the option to disable it . but i never really used the auto battle unless i was so OP that i killed them with one hit anyway plus didn't we just spam X when we were op in other ff's??? i sure did XD. so tell me whats the major problem that we need to not bash but super bash this game??
Did you know Michael Bay wrote the story of FFXIII?Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Lampard
Well, he actually didn't. But, boy, it sure looks like he did. The storytelling of XIII isn't tipical japanese storytelling. We're talking about a country that has storytellers like Imamura, Ozu, Naruse, Murakami, people that don't make one of the several mistakes that FFXIII does. The storytellers of FFXIII are just bad. And that's OK.The thing is just that making stories is really hard, specially serious story. The hope for FF series is that they choose the naive route. The not serious route. Let's be more inspired by Dragon Quest, shall we?
So what I managed to gather from the comments is...Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Pollak
the people who don't like FFXIII and FFXIII-2 just want every FF to play like FFs 1 through 10 with just minor differences. So in other words they are the same as Call of Duty fans .
As for the article itself. Thumbs up.
Struggling Series?Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by beauhappyday
I think what Jeremy said about series like Megaman, Zelda, and Sonic, (and others) is a bit dramatic. Specifically Sonic; Sonic Generations was the most fun I've had playing a video game in a long time, and Sonic's future is brighter than ever in my opinion. I love the old games, but I've also loved the new play style introduced in the daytimes stages of Unleashed. It's thrilling and fun, and has gotten better and more refined in every game since. And implying that Sonic fans are just grasping at straws because they like the new games is a little insulting.
Just because a franchise isn't how it used to be doesn't mean it's declining.
It's time for the series to remember its past or cease to existPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by joerevs300
I played FFXIII and I honestly didn't think it was a bad game. Sure, the difficulty spikes were a *****, but it was fair (use the proper tactics, win the battle, just like almost any other FF boss that was tough). Didn't bother me that I had to play a long time before getting some freedom. (in some ways, FFXIII-2 does TOO, being that the worlds are so short, AND force you into other times just to come back, it's all a little absurd).
Going back and playing FFVI and FFVII (as well as IX, which probably was the most missed one of the series, unfortunately), you see what Square could do at their best. Stories were easy to follow. Combat offered a lot of innovation (I should include V in there, though it wasn't my favorite, no other FF has offered that many different ways to make a party and attack a situation). Half the fun of those games were attempting to go places (and get wiped out) or level up to make it through before the game intended you to get there, giving you a needed boost (better weapons/armor/magic, etc).
I've seen many references to things in FFXIII-2, almost like they wanted to please fans of EVERY FF game.
Serdinipity (sp)=Gold Saucer from FFVII
Chocobo Races=also from FFVII
Time Travel (you had a bit of that in VI)
ATB (almost every FF since FFIV)
I am sure there are others.
The point is, FF is now suffering from what the Madden game does. The lack of innovation to bring FF into this century is just stunning. If this is the best they can do, then they need to do the right thing to go out, and remake FFVI and FFVII. I know for a fact a FFVII remake would probably sell 2 or 3 million copies by itself, and FFVI hasn't been redone (unless you count the GBA).
Otherwise, Square Enix needs to wait until the PS4 and give this one more shot. And no I don't mean FFXIV. That is a disaster waiting to happen too.
I see FFXIII-2 as nothing more than average. I am still playing it (probably 10 hours in) but the first day I got it I think I played it twice, and played FFVII as much that night.
Game franchises need to understand what worked 10 years ago isn't going to cut it in 2012. Evolve, or people will speak with their wallets, not buy your games, and you're toast.
Wow ,very coolPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by nigoola
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Great article, but again...Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by hauntedgraffiti
I will say that voice acting has been one of the primary causes for Final Fantasy's decline. Ever since X, the characters and story become a lot less focused and alienated because the translation doesn't make sense. The over-the-top stories and dialogue seem to only work when it is in text. Your imagination comes up with it's own voice, and therefore the reality of the game is a lot easier to understand. This is essentially why Mario and Zelda (despite it's frequent flaws) still sell incredibly well and retain their image. The unrealistic worlds are already known to us, but when we can actually hear the ridiculous dialogue, the line is blurred and it just seems like the characters are mocking their own universe rather than just being part of it.
Holy WowPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Pookiechan!!!
This is seriously one of the best articles I ever read on 1up. Or ever, really. I fucking love Jeremy...
Maximum Trolling!Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Booflax
"Mega Man, a stump of a brand cauterized by its own creators and rendered a laughingstock. Or Zelda, still solid but increasingly bogged down by its desire to be everything to everyone. Sonic the Hedgehog is in such a dire state that fans are willing to cling to the merest glimmer of competence as a sign of hope. The next Metal Gear had to be outsourced to Platinum after its creators couldn't figure out what to do with it."
LOL WOW Talk about freaking flame baiting! I'll bite though, MM9 and 10 were good solid games, and they just came out a year ago. Most old fans of the series loved them. The SFxT Mega Man is just a joke approved by Inafune himself. I seriously doubt Capcom is making fun of the MM brand itself. Capcom may have cancelled MML3 & MMU but I bet you anything they aren't done with the iconic blue bomber just yet. Moving on...
Seriously, Zelda? Skyward Sword was amazing, and it's the highest rated entry in the series. I'm pretty sure Zelda is staying relevant guy. So wrong there as well.
Sonic Generations was a really great game. Mere glimmer of competence? That's way too harsh, Sonic Generations was beloved by many. Sega has gotten their act together now I think, so wrong on Sonic also.
Also, REALLY? Using Metal Gear Rising as an example that Metal Gear is struggling? *Sigh* Did we already forget Peacewalker and MGS4? Both extremely highly praised games? Metal Gear Rising wasn't even directed by Hideo Kojima, it's basically not even canon at this point. It was a spin-off, not even a real MGS entry. It has more in common with Devil May Cry than MGS. Trust me, the real MGS5 will be just as incredible as the rest of the main series if Hideo Kojima is directing. So, wrong once again.
FF, Phantasy Star, Castlevania and Dragon's Quest are definitely struggling, you're right about that at least. The rest you mentioned? Not quite. Try harder next time 1UP author.
IMHOPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by XalucardX85
I think Lost Odyssey was a better game than XIII & XIII-2 and almost no one played it and recieved lower reviews than XIII...
Lost Odyssey was a pretty good gamePosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by ScoobyDeuce
but not great. I don't think there was any weakspots, yet it never felt like greatness either
is it just mePosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Dantes_Belmont
or grooveygr reminds of someone who used to troll in this place a while ago............
i dont see why u everybody seems to "hate" new FF....
take it like this....i love starwars.....but lately im starting to hate george lucas!!..im a sucker for it, and will go for the 3d version of the movies...but cmon do you really need more money of teh same old movies??? write the next episode you lazy .....
and here i found people going exactly the oposite way....dont do new stuff...just sell us more of the same, remake VII, VIII, X , remake them two or three times, give me the same story because is the only thing i like :P
i better keep my two cents (sorry kent brockman)
After FFIX - Everything went emoPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Krycus
As a fan of FF since the NES, FF has always had a unique feel...
I lost interest in FF games after FF9 because it lost its feel... everyone hates me for saying that FFX was a peice of S*** but it was.... They went emo enough for me to best compare the characters to the twilight series, plus losing the world map and... (enough bitching)
I don't want to look at the character and wonder if they are male or female 'cuz they all look the same, I can look back and tell the difference between Cecil and Kain easier than FFX characters- I don't know the names of them cuz they didn't grab my attention (and yes, i played X, X-2, and FFXII - as well as online because....)
I found myself playing them to keep faith in how much i loved Square - But i guess its the way of most things (I.E. Metallica vs. new Metallica - Just 'cuz they put something out doesn't mean its good)
I guess i've only bitched about the character when I started this comment as them losing their "feel"
I don't think i need to reiterate this, its obvious ( you feel it, too... admit it! )
Yeah,Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by V4Viewtiful
Amano's art was very porslin skinned and girlier than Nomura's the problem was transfering both into 3D, i thinks it's in the chins.
I think this quote...Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Malakhim3
..."He's a highly story-oriented RPG fan, while I care mostly about mechanics and consider a good video game plot an unexpected bonus" is important.
My personal feelings on the story and characters aside(I enjoy 'em), you're first and foremost playing a videoGAME, not watching a movie or reading a novel, and if developers were creating games with a story as its first concern, then we'd all be playing Heavy Rain all day, all the time, and that's about as non-game as it gets.
yup gameplay firstPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by ScoobyDeuce
I play games for the gameplay. The story is there to move the gameplay along, not to be the focal point. I'm not paying $60 dollars for a book, nor do I excpect to be engaged like I was reading a book. I think it kinda blows when a game is going well, just to be shut down by a five minute cutscene. That said, I still love FF but it is a series that needs to reclaim its jrpg roots and forget trying to cater to western gamers.
Gameplay should come firstPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by V4Viewtiful
buy if you gonna have a story it should be a chore to watch or take president from the overall gameplay. One thing that got me in FFX was unskippable cut scenes, apparrently the reason FFXIII had so many discs was due to all the high-res long cutscenes and that's just bad. Narrative can be told by playing the game, not watch it.
@ScoobyDeuce, you are right JRPG should forget catering to the west
Japanese storytelling tropes...Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Malakhim3
...have really been grating on me in a lot of JRPGS such as the Tales series and certain characters in FFXIII(personally I thought Hope was a much more annoying cliche in the later half of the game rather than the opening), but I guess that's just the nature of the beast. I can usually forgive it however due to my previous point. I do agree though that unskippable cutscenes can screw up a person's experience, even if the player enjoyed the story the first time through.
That being said, I also can't stand the generic aesthetics of most western games in general. The art style may be functional but goddamn, it doesn't really express anything artistic or attract me in the least. Of course I don't think the problem lies with developers as much as it does with the audience. I can't remember who made this quote in a 1up interview(maybe Ken Levine on Booker in Bioshock Infinite?), but the developer in question mentioned that the team was afraid of giving the main character an interesting hairstyle because they were worried that "they'd add too much personality and thus alienate/piss off the western fanbase". If this were true, then by all means, keep sticking to business as usual, Japan.
Look at it this way...Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Malakhim3
Would you rather pay 60 dollars(and 60 hours time) to go through a boring game with an interesting story attached, or would you rather pay 10% of that for the novel(or any other interesting novel/movie/whatever)?
Like I said, a game with an interesting story is great, but a game's primary goal should be to entertain with its "gameyness(?)". Anything else is peripheral
So basically....Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by CuteIgor2
Everything went to shit after FFVII.
Ok. We get it.
after FFXPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
After FFVIIIPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by V4Viewtiful
That story made no sense
FFIXPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
Was a lot of fun, though.
FFVI (FFIII)Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by SaviorMachine
It's been rubbish since.
Awesome read JeremyPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Exevalon
I'd love to post my opinion on this but im too busy at the moment. However, the short version is, its safe to say, there is something plaguing the long running franchises of yesteryear. And it has alot to do with trying to contemporize classics by comprimising what made them classics in the first place. Its not just about changing things, as some would say, that they welcome change, but about not knowing how to replace that which was changed, adequately.
I am not a SE agent. I just appreciate change.Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Theglitch_900
I am sick and tired of a couple thing gamers of this crowd
1. Clamoring to the past and want the same old bland stuff coming out.
2. People talking about how FF 6-10 like their the best RPGS since swiss cheese.
3. Final Fantasy XIII did not have mediocore anything the only problem was the linearity which I got over and XIII-2 story which most of gamers don`t like but I do.
Final Fantaasy 8,10 were just love stories and in 8 you could basically summon to a victory. Final Fantasy 9 was Dragon quest for Final Fantasy Fans. VI I haven`t played so I can`t comment until I download it on PSN. People also talk about VII which was my first Final Fantasy I played which is actually good but now I think anout how the fans want so much of a remake I think it is overrated. And if anybody Mass Effect is a better RPG think about this all they did was mix Gears of War with Final Fantasy VII minus the fantasy element and gave you somewhat of a typical shooter story talking how a soldier must defeat things that threaten humanity. So that what I got to say if you want a rebuttal reply to this.
Sick and tired? Take a Tylenol and a nap then.Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
1. We don't want the same old stuff, we want GOOD stuff. FFXIII was not good in our opinion.
2. I think history and popular opinion will show that those games will be rememberd as being among the best RPGs.
3. What exactly did FFXIII excel at, then? Notice how even in your praises of the game, you list faults.
lolwinPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
I don't mean to be a douche but...Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by madhat
What ever happened to the classic if not standard , "Victory Fanfare song" at the end of every battle ? Sometimes , "Old is gold"...
Maybe , for the next installment (if there's any) the "theme" would be comedy . As in not taking itself too seriously...like the Disgaea series...
Sounds good!Posted: Feb 29, 2012 12:00AM PST by Fyrebrand
FFIX was more or less a comedy. I found that game genuinely pretty funny most of the time, though it was really different from most other FF games. If they want to do another light-hearted throwback kind of game like FFIX, that might be a good time to bring back the old victory theme as well -- FFIX did, after all. But then again, FFIX probably did that kind of thing the best. I doubt they could top it, without it feeling too similar or rehashed.
Bring back Amano!Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by nick1283
While I think Jeremy is dead on in a lot of respects he missed the glaring, 800lb gorilla that is Tetsuya Nomura. I have yet to see an original character or scenario design come out of Square (proper, not its subsidiaries) in over 10 years. Sure, some in-game systems and gameplay styles have changed from installment to installment but the porcelain faced, ladyboys/girls have remained a staple since laying his hands on FFVII. I played XIII for all of 20 minutes before I realized there's no way I had the stomach for his nonsense anymore. With today's graphic engines am I the only one who longs for an Amano designed JRPG? Could you imagine playing FFVI like it was drawn in his sketchbooks?
Um...Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by akbogert
Considering VII's popularity, I doubt you're going to find much support in hating Nomura. Personally, I love X, XII, and Kingdom Hearts, so seeing "get rid of Nomura" instantly puts me on the defensive. Doesn't mean Amano's not talented, and it doesn't mean that over-stylized characters are ceasing to be interesting to American audiences. Just that Nomura is well-respected by a lot of people and attacking him's probably not the best way to sway people to your side.
That said, I think it's also worth pointing out that for the gamers of the last couple generations, Nomura's work is synonomous with JRPG. Whether Amano's style would have mass appeal in a post-Nomura world is a worthwhile question, as business concerns need to be taken into consideration.
Nomura / George LucasPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by nick1283
You don't think Nomura, to some extent, was in the right place at the right time? Because of FFVIIs popularity he's been ensconced and given carte blanche at Square. I'm sure in corporate's eye's they see a 1:1 ratio in the his involvement and sales - but sales have dwindled (both Stateside and in Japan). The 'Fabula Nova Crystallis' development lifecycle is nearing a decade - how can this be viewed than anything other than a colossal failure?
To link things back to Nutt's original article the same things 'wrong' with the Final Fantasy franchise are the same things 'wrong' with the Star Wars prequels. They've tried to be everything to everybody (appeal to old fans, bring in new ones, fixate on icons (ie lightsabers/moogles) but the magic just isn't there. When the magic isn't there people tend to blame the creative heads (in this case George Lucas/Nomura).
In all honesty, I'd like to see Square scrap the franchise. I don't want a 'return to form' - I want original, thought-provoking stories with new, interesting characters. I'm not sure Square knows how to do that anymore. Is there any entertainment series (in any medium) that 'gets better' with its 15th(!) sequal?
But as we'll soon see movies based on the boardgames 'Battleship' and 'Candyland' we live in a world of brand recognition first and foremost.
Scrapping the franchisePosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by akbogert
...isn't the worst idea in the world. I like Nomura's design (refreshing contrast from the western games I regularly play) but I'm okay with him sticking to just one franchise...like Kingdom Hearts, where the over-the-top characters fit right in with the Disney canon (in fact I'll be VERY happy when this Crystallis stuff is over and he can get back to working on KHIII). Frankly Square's non-FF titles have been generally liked, though not as popular. With more development money and promotion behind them, I see no reason why Square couldn't maintain supremacy as an RPG company without the FF flag.
That said, people still love lightsabers and they still love moogles. Truth is, people still want more Star Wars and they still want more Final Fantasy. If they can be done in a way that doesn't suck, then there's no reason for them to disappear.
I promised myself I wouldn't read criticism about XIII-2Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by catgirl147
because really, I don't think there is anything wrong with it, at all. I actually love the narrative, likely as a result of my love for time travel focused quests (like Radiant Historia which I think is one of the RPG masterpeices of this decade).
Anyways, I do think this is an 'evolution' of the final fantasy series; naysayers may think that it is a devolution, but I would argue against it. I could go on, but instead I'm doing a blog series about why fans should give this one a chance. So if anyone disagrees with me... check out my blog series. I might just change your mind....
Lol at grooveygrPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Umei
My first Final Fantasy was VII. So does that exclude me from being a hardcore FF fan? No. It doesn't matter which FF was your first or if you've played them all. The beautiful thing about FF is that every entry is a different world with different characters. Of course we have our top 3 fav Final Fantasies, but if you ask around, everybody's top three are different and for specific reasons.
FFXIII-2 is a step in the right direction. THe linearity has been addressed, tons of side missions to do and Caius is prob one of the better villians in the FF series. I believe you refuse to except for what FF is nowadays.
Oh, btw, Catgirl is a big Jrpg fan who knows her history. She really supports the jprg games big or small titles.
stealth20k is right.Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
FFXIII is a bad game all on its own. It's when you compare it to earlier FF releases, that it becomes even worse.
Final Fantasy has always went in many directions.Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by BrokenH
I sympathize with the "Old G" sentiment however,saying FF 13 and 13-2 are "crap" is a bias opinionated judgement. We all know each FF game is radically different (Even the ones that continue a previous entry) but throughout it all the production values,gameplay, and story telling have stayed top notch. Certainly you can debate some plots are "piss poor garbage" but once again that returns to personal preferences. (The same can be said on whether or not you rather have a more linear rpg or a more open world rpg.)
Frankly my recent favorite FF was 12. My other nostalgic top iterations are tactics,4,6,and 9. However, for those that enjoy the "new stuff" let them. It isn't hurting anyone.
I long for "the old days" too guys but sometimes you gotta let the train keep chugging along. It's not just about "us" enjoying the ride. Others have to be accounted for in the equation as well.
Opinion, yes. Bias, no.Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
Isn't that the point of this site, and the success or failure of all media? Opinion? I WANT Square to make good FF games, because I want to play good FF games. What they have released in this series over the past decade are not what I'd consider good games. Sure, they have some decent elements or innovations, but on the whole, I wouldn't call them good. A "step in the right direction" does not justify a $60 purchase for me.
Nobody (at least not me) is telling anyone not to like the newer games, but it seems as if everyone who does like these games wants to tell the rest of us that we are wrong for not liking it, and trying to convice us why we should. I read the comments in these FF articles all the time, and all I see are constant justifications for purchase, and not much in the way of objectivity from those who DO like the newer games. I can tell you why I don't like FFXIII without comparing it to other games. Can you tell me why it's a good game without doing the same? THAT is objectivity. Even in praise, many fans of the new style also say things like "yeah it was kinda linear" or "the characters and story aren't the strongest" or "the battle system is a little simplistic". Is that acceptable to you? It sure isn't to me, not when we know how good Square CAN be.
From the sounds of things, Square isn't winning any new fans. Everyone that defends this game talks about how they have played all these other Square games. So yeah, not new fans. But what they are doing is alienating long time fans who don't care for their recent efforts. I'm not going to simply accept that as "changing with the times", because that's a extremely poor excuse for making bad games. Ask yourself: Would you rather play a great game in the old FF style, or a mediocre game in the new style, just because it's new?
Nobody is bashing Square because it's the hip thing to do, but it sure seems as if defending them is.
Fearless CeltPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by BrokenH
I wouldn't say defending anything game related is "hip". In case you haven't noticed I'm not exactly "Cool mastah of the internetz". I've simply followed S/E long enough to know this pattern is cyclic. I remember when many people ragged on FF 8 for many of the same reasons. For its' time it was considered an unnecessary deviation from the core series. I actually had fun with it save for the fact I didn't collect all the best summons so once I got locked into Ultimacea's mansion I was royally screwed! lol.
I enjoy the older entries better too but I wouldn't say the newer entries are outright "wrong". I'm sure future FFs will flip-flop and go back to the themes I personally hold dear. (Though I'm pretty tempted to try 13-2 too!)
Sure,my dinosaur logic rather have everything stay "retro" so I can constantly re-live my glory days but alas, the world has other ideas!
I've been playing FF forever...Posted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by catgirl147
well, since the SNES days anyways (FFII, aka FFIV was the first- doesn't my avatar scream oldschool FF to you? RYDIA!!!). So don't say I'm 'new' to the FF series. lol. And I think FFXIII-2 is good. My opinion is my opinion, and can't be 'wrong' since it is by definition, subjective. lol. So say what you will, I'll respect your opinion, but please respect mine too. That's all I ask, the point of this site as FearlessCelt said, is to express your opinion and have that opinion respected, so I was just stating what I thought about XIII-2 :D and my blogs on XIII-2 are just to outline some of the things reviewers might have missed, or immediately dismissed, just in case others have crossed XIII-2 off the list because of lack of information/knowledge of the unique aspects of the game. So read my blogs if you want to, or don't, doesn't matter to me. Just an expression of opinion, is all.
Anyways, thx for the backup all :) you know what a crazy hardcore JRPGer I am, heh.
BrokenHPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
Not sure how old you are, but I'm pretty much what could be considered a "dinosaur" as well (34). I love retro gaming, and the nostalgia I get from it. The best part is, I can still play all those games, because I still own them. What I'm getting at is that I don't need FF to go back to the old formula, but I know what I like, and I know what I don't. I'm not saying FF is "wrong", I'm saying it's bad now. Wrong is a definite, bad in an opinion. Nobody is wrong for liking it, but they are wrong for telling me that I should. I keep repeating this, but I'll say it again: It's fine to like these games. I don't.
The reason I say it's hip is because defense of these games is often without logic, just like anything else that becomes fashionable. There's no good examples given of fun, innovative, or creative game play, just insistence that I should like it and support something that I don't like, because it's Square. I mean, time does press on, but obviously Square knew they did something wrong, or they wouldn't have made the changes they did with FFXIII-2. Which brings me back to my first statement on this topic: This is either a half-assed attempt to win back fans like me, or they really have lost touch with what made them so great.
See, I've been a Square fan for a long time, too. So I know how good they can be. That is why these latest games are so disappointing to me. It will be very interesting (and telling) to see the direction the next main entry takes.....
catgirl147Posted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
Well said. I repsect your opinion, you're free to like them as much as I'm free to dislike them. Being a long time JRPG fan myself (my first RPG experience was Phantasy Star, way back on the Sega Master System, not going for "cred", just stating facts), so I've seen what I consider the rise and decline of the JRPG. The issue is not about progress or getting with the times, it's about the quality of the games. I respect everyone's opinion who respects mine, but I am not going to be told what to like by anyone.
We're agreed then!Posted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by catgirl147
From one RPGer to another, I respect your opinion as long as you respect mine :D
I don'tPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by sepewrath
think there is a such thing as a "happy medium" in character design. You either make something unique, that will appeal to some and not to others. Or you go the way of the bald space marine, something so plain and generic, that it doesn't incite a reaction from anyone. There is no in between for that. Personally I'll take my chances with the former any day of the week. I may not always like the final result, but I appreciate the effort. Take a game like Soul Calibur, it takes abuse for the way many of the characters dress, but I'll take that over the 50 ninja's in Mortal Kombat that are just a different color.
Fire ToriyamaPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by grooveygr
Make sure Toriyama never directs another FF game by firing him ! Problems fixed !
"He[Toriyama] also believes that it becomes very difficult to tell a compelling story when the player is given a huge amount of freedom to explore."
"Toriyama is interested in using first-person shooter games for inspiration rather than other role-playing video games,"
"Toriyama aimed for the game design of the first half of Final Fantasy XIII to play like watching a film. The reason was so the player could become absorbed with the story and characters and not get distracted or lost."
Extreme much?Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by akbogert
Scholars have been discussing cinema envy for years, and it is an issue when game-makers try too hard to make games like movies. So Toriyama's not alone in his (I'll agree misguided) attempts to make a cinematic game. But consider the fact that, say, MGS4 is a popular game that definitely makes gamers watch it as much as play it.
FPS games are the most popular genre in America. They are what sell. The most popular RPG series (arguably) of this generation is Mass Effect, and it has been considered commended because of the FPS elements it has emulated. So whether FPS-emulation is going to work in the FF franchise is definitely up for discussion, but you can't fault the guy for looking at success stories in gaming when attempting to make a game that appeals to a broad audience. FF games are far more expensive to make than they used to be, so SE can no longer afford to make an artsy niche game.
Anyhow, I can appreciate why you're upset but I think calling for Toriyama's head is a bit much. By all accounts he tried to make a game that more people would like, studied what people disliked about the first game and studied what people who play games in general seem to like, and by all accounts he succeeded wildly in doing so. The biggest downfall, according to reviewers, of this game is that the story sucks, and Toriyama is right on the money: narrative and gameplay are at direct odds with each other. The more novel the gameplay, the more control you give the player, the looser your story is going to be. The fact that some people care a lot more about narrative or gameplay is the reason why Jeremy and Christian's reviews are so different. I imagine you fall in Christian's camp, and there's nothing wrong with that. But calling for a person's job's a little extreme.
It doesnt have excellent gameplayPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by grooveygr
Why doesnt SE just use the same battle system as FF1-10? make it turnbased.
FF13 and 13-2 doesnt have excellent gameplay, it plays itself, what kind of gameplay is that?
How to fix FF: Just use the formula's that worked with FF1-10
(1)Turnbased gameplay which feels strategic, like FF1-10. Not the gameplay of FF12, which plays itself with the gambit system and FF13 which plays itself with auto battle and libra
(2)Bring back the world map, it takes away the excuse that such and such game "isnt an rpg" and it feel like your part of the world. This quote wrong, if Toriyama beleives that, he should be fired:
"He[Toriyama] also believes that it becomes very difficult to tell a compelling story when the player is given a huge amount of freedom to explore."
(3)Hire some good writers, make epic stories like those of FF6-10
(4)"Good" Mini games you can play throughout the "jorney" when you feel like taking "time off": Blitzball, Tetra master e.t.c
(5)DONT TAKE INSPIRATION FROM FPS GAMES: this quote is wrong, and Toriyama should be fired if he beleives it:
"Toriyama is interested in using first-person shooter games for inspiration rather than other role-playing video games,"
(6)Hard secret bosses e.g Omega Weapon, Emerald Weapon. Unlike FF13-2 where we have to pay to fight them
(7)Loveable and memorable cool characters like Auron, Sephiroth, Cloud e.t.c NOT hope, noel, snow !
(8)Listen to the fans when they say "take FF back to its roots" ! If it isnt broken, dont fix it. You should have kept most things same, just make a few changes with each FF, not radical ones.
Stop clamoring to the old daysPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Theglitch_900
Like the title says and one other thing as well if Final Fantasy does goes back to its roots it will just to me get cliche and that could be a problem with the series not winning new fans
Ff games didnt change muchPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by grooveygr
FF6-10 didnt have major changes between each subsequent game. SE only changed a few things, they all had similiar battle system. They added new mini games and new unique stories.
FF10 was am amazing FF (best game i played in my life, my first FF), but i would prefer if it had a worldmap. I thnk thats about when SE started taking FF in the wrong direction.
But with FF12, SE changed the battle system and i didnt like that. I also felt the story of FF12 wasnt that great.
Then with FF13, that was just a mediocre game. It felt like it could be any futuristic rpg.
I didn't like 10Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by V4Viewtiful
other than the game play, 10 had mostly terrible character design, annoying characters, cringe worthy dialogue one of the most obvious vilians in videogame history, and a good story idea with poor narration. I'm not saying you shouldn't like it or anything, but it's not the best.
Can't comment on 12 because i haven't finished it but from what I remeber Vaan and Penola where pretty lame characters, they didn't (again from memory) did very little to advance the plot and were uninteresting. The battle system at first was confusing but i got used to it, it was good enough for Xenoblade to do a version of it, not as deep but still fun.
fair enough, grooveygrPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by V4Viewtiful
If you like them, you like them, but i don't and i can tell you why but i'll only explain the ones you mensioned. Admittingly i over generallised. Jecht and Auron were the sh!t, Seynour was such a lame villian that barely hid his malevalent intensions, i sused him and his stupid hair first glance, Wakka, well, his idiocy was cemented when he said probaly the dumbest, most insensitive thing in the whole game after they had to blow up that city (the name escapes me) "Boom! Like happy festival fire works, ya?" a direct quote.
As for the story... well the idea was good but the execusion was lame, a sentinent bug isn't much of an climax, the obvious contradiction of Yvoone belief of not using Machines when they clearly use them in battle, that stupid narration which we find out was told to the people who were already there, that marriage B.S., the lack of ergeancy with a big giant sky whale destroying the coast, and general plot inconsistancies.
but those are my hang ups.
Sonic isn't in a dire state....Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by HydraEternal
Not that it has anything to do with this article but Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations were a blast to play!
I think Sonic games are on the reboundPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Theglitch_900
Basically Sonic games didn`t have one thing since Sonic Advemture 2 and that was speed and that all they need.
You're rightPosted: Jun 10, 2012 12:00AM PST by badatHalo
Sonic isn't in dire straits....anymore.
They went downhill when they tried to change too much of what made the games famous.
They have since recovered by adding more of the Sonic roots to the games.
Sounds like SE could learn something from SEGA
Seriously, Jeremy?Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by shadowhearts
I get that this isn't the best Square has ever put out under the Final Fantasy banner but... good gods, this is recieving a lot of flak for not being what everyone wants it to be. It's very far from the worst FF offering I've played, it's far from the worst story I've ever taken in, it's very far from the worst ANYTHING I've been a part of.
I mean, honestly, I'm kind of liking the new direction FFXIII is going in, shaking things up, upsetting people and showing people that Final Fantasy can be more than self-indulgent love stories where everyone has to look like an 18 year old girl lambasted with ten minute summon sequences and three hour expositions that have about as much, at points, depth as most status updates from my Facebook News Feed. FFXIII wasn't the best of the best but Square-Enix is taking a huge risk in creating a new compilation, which, I believe, is an effort to revitalize the franchise and, in my opinion, the first step is rarely ever its best.
So... come on, guys, let up. Jesus.
With you on thisPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Theglitch_900
I am in total agreement with you
Did you read the article?Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by BrokenH
Jeremy says FF 13-2 is a step in the right direction. He may not have took to the story but he loved the gameplay. How exactly is that "hating"?
My only confusion is over the fact FF 13 got an "-A" on 1up and FF 13-2 got a "B" despite improving much over the first entry.
JeremyPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by BrokenH
I hope you're right Jeremy. I think at the very least S/E is listening to its' fanbase again and that is a good start! I found the "review" to be a bit conflicted (Aka it seemed to both praise and damn 13-2 simultaneously from my perspective) but at the end I took note you thought it went in a better direction than the original FF-13.
I can't see this as a good sign.Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
After a string of games that have have been widely criticized, to just being called plain bad, Square's attempt to "right the ship" with this game represents one of two things:
This was their best effort, and it is still a failure. They have clearly lost touch with what their long-time fan base wants.
They put in a half-assed attempt to try and satisfy those long time fans, which smacks of a money grab more than anything.
I have not felt satisfied with the entirety of a Final Fantasy game since FFX, and I even felt that was a decline from the games before it. It used to be that you were almost guaranteed a good experience with a Square game. I've now lost all faith in this company to deliver a game I want to play.
I'm well aware many will defend the latest Square games to the death, but the common theme in all of those defenses is that I'm being told why I should enjoy that game. If you have to tell someone why they should enjoy a game, it's just not a good game, period. There were elements of FFXIII that I liked, but not nearly enough to trudge through it, or put the 20 hours into it until it "takes off", because that's poor game design. It's OK to like their latest games, but it's also OK to not like them.
I feel Square is confused about their own identity. Let's face it, many developers are making far superior RPGs, and Square is trying to figure out what they need to do to compete. The irony is, they don't need to change their long standing formula. As small as the changes were between FFII and FFX, they kept the series fresh and interesting enough to keep people satisfied and coming back. Some of the all-time greatest RPGs came from this era of Square. They did that one thing, and they did it better than anybody. Do one thing, and do it well. There is nothing wrong with that. But by trying to experiment with things they have no real experience with, they have lost their identity. I respect them for making the attempt to expand on their formula, but it's not working. It's like Metallica. A lot of long time fans hate anything they've put out since the Black Album, but they're set on going in the direction they want to go it. Go to a live show and what do they play? The classics. Maybe Square should take FF back to its roots, and leave the experimentation for other franchises.
If things continue as they are, Square will still be remembered as one of the greatest game developers of all time. But it will be on the merits of what they did in the past, not what they're doing now or will do in the future.
Actually never seen anything wrong with 12 and 13Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Theglitch_900
I do see this a good sign they are willing to experiment and give gamers something new even though the gamers want to cling to the past. If you have played this game have you played Gears of War 3 which is also linear ot Mass Effect 2 which is just basically linear with space travel. If you have please stop the complaining and get over it change is going to happen no matter if you like it or not. This has no cohesive story as the reviewer says but all these reviewers say that gameplay is the most important aspect so why don`t you give this game higher score and stop your complaining games were never about the story.
HardlyPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by V4Viewtiful
Gears is a shooter and it's to be expected, Mass Effecct isn't that linear especially compared to 13. And story isn't important for most games, RPGs partly/greatly rely on a cohesive plot and without it can make the difference between a great, good or bad game.
A game not about the story is no excuse for a bad one.
That B.S.Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Theglitch_900
Go and play Mass Effect and tell me that has a great story but it rips off gears of war which to me make no differenece. Do not give me the bullcrap about Space travel or romance options because this is gears of war for non shooter fans. Final Fantasy XIII and -2 try to mix things up. If you still want to cater to 1-10 FF then you need to wake up because change has to happen if you don`t like change then you will get left in the dust.
Now you are exaggeratngPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by V4Viewtiful
No idea is original, and Mass Effect did it better, IMO. It's obvious that the first ME was far deeper in it's RPG roots than ME2 but calling Gears and that the same is just sad.
Gears is an A-B story the same as FF13, Mass Effect has the luxury of not having to play though the main story till it was unavoidable and Space travel is a ligitamite example because there are some area's you don't need to go and other subplots you don't need to go through. Take those out and you've got FF13.
If they ditch turnbase, I still say "screw'em" but i'll get over it, however there was no real reason to have left out what they did and didn't improve till 13-2.
Change can be good....Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by TheRealFearlessCelt
.....except for when it sucks. I told you, feel free to like these games, but don't try to tell me why I should like them. Criticizing other games is convincing us that FF is still relevant, how? Games don't have to be about story, or non-linearity, or whatever else you want to argue about, they have to be about having FUN. FF is not fun, period. Say what you will about Gears and Mass Effect, but thet were a hell of a lot more fun to play than anything Square has put out in the FF franchise for damn near a decade.
Nobody is clinging to the past, we're clinging to what we like, and rejecting what we don't. Deal with that.
Soooooo....Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by JX333
Are you saying all Western villains are Sith Lords?! LOL I love hooded villains. They are so mysterious and intimidating lol. I thin Mike Tyson needs to be a boss again. He'd come out in a hooded robe.
Also the spoiler alert about the ending was a little messed up. I was thinkin about gettin this sooner but now I'll wait. Prolly the smarter choice anyways from the sounds of it, but as long as it's not as shockinglyunresolved as Xenosaga... well, either way I'm a be upset. I hope this isn't like X-2 with multiple endings and which REQUIRED you to play it twice to get the good ending (I could only stomach ONE playthrough). We'll see when it tanks or doesn't. I miss the PSOne rpgs. Best of all time.
Get back to basic'sPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by TyrantSyn
The style of character's and story lines that they've adopted since 10 has just completely turn me off from the series. Don't get me wrong, I love 10's style. But it seem's like they've just been building off it ever since. And I just don't care for it. With 10 it was a fresh idea, that just gone stale at this point.
I Feel Ya...Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by JX333
FF12's story was so worthless I honestly did not care after I beat the game. I saw everyone's loose ends tied up and had NO connection to it. I just felt like there was no point to finishing it. 13 was better with SOME of the character's plots, but overall was like the inverse of 12. 12 focused on the world's plot with no character development, and 13 was all character, no world development. Gimme a 9 and 7 story anyday. Just not 7's ending. 9 ON POINT. 8 was dumb... just sayin.
AgreedPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by V4Viewtiful
X had a really god combat system (except that sphere thing) but the story sucked, you may of liked the designs but i thought they were a mess. What were they smoking when they made Seymour's hair? And 8 was dumb.
What i don't understand is why SE hasn't used good parts where in the bad games and improve them, they look to be trying the same method a some what devisive or good battle system with bad narrative or/and design.
@ V4ViewtifulPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by TyrantSyn
Yea some of those character design where really wtf, Wakka really killed me and I had to deal with him threw the whole game. While other characters like Lulu, Kilmari, Auron seem a little less offensive. There was something to appericate about the wacky design, atleast for myself. It depicted a type of style to the world and gave it it's own personality. Kind of like a stereo type. But after that game they could have kept it.
I'd personally like to see a return to the olde medieval style, with a new coat of polish on them.
But....Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by chickdigger802
the music!
The god awful music!
Is this what japanese think americans love?
Being Expiremental Sometimes Means Making MistakesPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by EXTomar
Although FF13-2 isn't the best or perfect game I do see indications of change and learning which is always good. They are still stumbling but at least that is trying where other companies would just retreat back to portables.
Square-Enix should keep trying and we should be up front and honest with what works and what doesn't because the alternative is that they give up making games.
YouPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by turkish101
make the best case for the 'off-putting' (putting it mildly) character design needing to be done away with. I imagine it is popular in Japan, but... yeah. Not working here.
On the other hand, there really is no one like Tetsuya and those other SE folk. The sad thing is that, if they tried to make more 'Western' - you're right - it would end up being a clenched-faced hooded figure.
I stillPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by estmaddog
just can't get over how shallow the combat is and why on earth they thought it should stay for the sequel. The fact that every character can develop into almost any role you want only creates flexibility and depth when each role is meaningful AND excludes the possibilities of other roles.
In the case of FFXIII and FFXIII-2 every character can develop into every role. It doesn't create the party you want, it just creates identical characters with different skins.
Maybe some people like that. I vehemently disagree with them but this game clearly is not for me and I do consider myself a fan of FF...primarily for it's combat. Which is why this game is such a sad disappointment for me.
There's also no meaningful difference between abilities aside from incredibly shallow enemy weaknesses (why can't I specialize in fire?) but even that is completely overshadowed by the fact that there's no meaningful control over your own characters. The AI just sorta...bungles around for you. If you really wanted, you could put down the controller during combat and still take a win. For what should be one of the most intense parts of the game, that's a pretty heinous sin.
Title of CommentPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by roto13
They kept the battle system for the sequel because it's one of the things XIII did well. So well I'd go so far as to say it's the best battle system the series has ever had. I don't know what to tell you. You must be doing something very wrong if you think it's "shallow" and everyone is the same in every role. That's just factually untrue. Each character has his or her own unique skillset with the same roles.
What?!Posted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by estmaddog
First of all, the AI controls two of your characters. That is NOT depth. Second, yes they all had the exact same abilities! EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM had the same "element" "elementa" "elemaga" progression for every single element. And EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM could be a white mage, a black mage, a dragoon, a monk, or a warrior...by the end of the game you built identical characters with identical skillsets. The only differences were the weapons they used and possibly their stats (although certainly not different enough to exclude them from being effective at any role such that they actually had to specialize).
Did you play the game?! Did I play the game?! I actually become incredibly confused when people tell me the battle system was deep because I've never seen anything so grossly shallow in a combat system since tic-tac-toe.
AgreePosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by akbogert
I've been scratching my head for a long time about the praise this battle system has gotten, and I've come to the following conclusion:
Proponents of the system love the paradigm shift. The concept of switching on the fly, using magic to weaken and physical attacks to do some serious damage, tanking and then switching back to keep up the meter -- it's definitely an intriguing combination.
Opponents of the system don't disagree with any of that. Their problem is that the game doesn't take advantage of the potential at all. For almost every mandatory fight in the game, simply hitting "auto battle" repeatedly will eventually result in a win. No, you won't necessarily get five stars, but then there's no tangible benefit to getting five stars, so that doesn't matter. The battle system is only as good as the way you end up using it, and for detractors of FFXIII, the battles of this game come down to literally just hitting one button. QED: worst battle system ever.
It gets even worse when you start handing harder battles, because there's no room for intuition or instinct. The later challenges require you to use a very specific set of paradigms in a very specific order, and any deviation from the single, predetermined method of beating each mini-boss is punished with more or less instant failure. So now you have the opposite problem: instead of being the over-simple one-button battle scheme, the game is forcing you to be very technical about your fighting but it punishes experimentation. So even when you're encouraged to actually use the paradigm shift system, you're forced to do it mindlessly. Again: worst system ever.
As far as levelling goes, the system had some good ideas, but maddog is correct in saying that unlike in other games, FFXIII neither encourages nor permits specializing your characters. Ultimately you use Vanille as a white mage and Snow as a tank because their initial stats (weak physical attack, high defense, respectively) more or less demand it -- but that's a far cry from a player saying "I want this character to serve this role in the party, and this other character to do this." Ultimately they become six unequal clones of one another, and you end up choosing your party not because of skills but because of personality, which is really just strange.
I found FFXIII tolerable, but the battle system was not, in my mind, anywhere near the revolution that a lot of people consider it. It had, as I said, a lot of potential, but as it never encouraged experimentation, it was ultimately very boring. Yes, I could have chosen to play differently instead of exploiting the auto-battle system, but there's my point: the fact that the game never forced me to do so, or even really ever made me want to do so. A great battle system would have encouraged me to step beyond the auto-battle option, and unfortunately FFXIII never did.
Let me get this straightPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by Pollak
You base how you level up characters on their stats so in your example Vanille is a white mage and Snow is a tank but all characters are clones?!? To me that seems like specialized roles but they added the option to give them other talents. If any FFs just gave you combat clones it was FF6 & FF7.
As for the battle system and the complaint of just hitting one button to win most random encounters, how is that different from any other FF? You can just mash attack and win almost any random encounter in every FF.
Title of CommentPosted: Feb 03, 2012 12:00AM PST by roto13
"First of all, the AI controls two of your characters. That is NOT depth."
Control comes from forming strategies. Depth doesn't come from mashing X over and over again and responding to obvious situations in obvious ways. "I'm low on HP! BETTER HEAL! derp! LOOK AT THE DEPTH!"
"Second, yes they all had the exact same abilities! EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM had the same "element" "elementa" "elemaga" progression for every single element."
And here's where you're just wrong. That's simply not true. Not every character can learn every spell or ability. Only Sazh can learn Haste before almost the end of the game, at which point Hope can learn it too. Only after dozens of hours of post-game grinding can most other characters learn Haste (way too late to be practical or useful), and even then, there's one that doesn't ever. Fang doesn't learn a single spell as a ravager, and Hope and Vanille don't learn a single elemental strike as ravagers. For example. Stop being crazy.
"And EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM could be a white mage, a black mage, a dragoon, a monk, or a warrior...by the end of the game you built identical characters with identical skillsets. The only differences were the weapons they used and possibly their stats (although certainly not different enough to exclude them from being effective at any role such that they actually had to specialize)."
You don't think stats matter? Try using Fang as your main healer and Vanille as your Sentinel and see how that works out for you. Not to mention some of them just lack key abilities in those roles.
"Did you play the game?! Did I play the game?! I actually become incredibly confused when people tell me the battle system was deep because I've never seen anything so grossly shallow in a combat system since tic-tac-toe."
Did you play the game? Because I'm not convinced that you did. I'm sure you're confused all the time, though, that much is evident.
Great Article. My thoughts in your wordsPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by KazeFoxx
I couldn't have summed up the big picture for Final Fantasy, SquareEnix, and Japanese RPG game development better myself. Thanks for writing this article, dood. Hopefully, readers will understand what a diehard FF fan was thinking but was unable to express.
The beloved franchise is trying to keep running a race that was once no contest to it, all the while getting older and placed alongside competitors who have a fighting chance of their own. Yes, this installment was pretty wrong in the sense of what Final Fantasy fans have come to know and love, but that is a result of all the things mentioned in this article. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.
I can only hope that current and former fans can continue to support the franchise, and the company responsible for it as they continue to work to regain their former status. After all, making mistakes and learning from them is the tried and true path to greatness.
I hope for a new beginningPosted: Feb 02, 2012 12:00AM PST by V4Viewtiful
Usually the Turkey's of franchises show things to avoid (although they still manage to bung up voice acting but...) the way you describe it's plot holes and inconsistencies reminds me of the more obvious plot holes in 8 and 10, two other nonsensical time travel stories.
I very much agree with the last two paragraphs though
Also the most impractical (worst) designs where in X