text:
The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
On Monday December 8th, the Baseball
Hall of Fame will announce
the voting results of the Veterans Committee.
In a three part series, guest columnist and reader, "Dying Cub Fan"
takes a look at the candidacy of former Cubs third basemen, Ron
Santo. We ran this piece two years ago, but it's lost in Internet limbo
and well, Santo deserves it, so we're running it again. Plus, the voting process has changed this year, as there are only 10 players for the committee to consider, so here's hoping this is the year. You can join the revolution on Facebook as well.
In 1964, third
basemen won the MVP award in both the American League and the
National League. Brooks
Robinson won in the AL, playing for an Oriole team
that won 97 games and finished third, and Ken
Boyer won in the NL, playing for the Cardinals, who
won 93 games and the pennant. The Cubs won 76 games and finished
8th. Santo had a better year than either Robinson or Boyer and
finished 8th in MVP balloting. 6
Santo had more
home runs, a higher on-base percentage and a higher slugging
percentage than either Robinson or Boyer. Santo won the Gold Glove
over Boyer, who had won it the previous five years. Playing for
teams that scored significantly more runs and had higher team on-base
percentages than the Cubs, both Robinson and Boyer had more RBI than
Santo; Robinson led the AL in RBI and Boyer led the NL (Santo
finished second).
It is widely
acknowledged that the MVP award does not always go the best player in
the league, but it tends to go to players on teams that either win
the pennant or come close. While there have been exceptions, very
good players on mediocre or bad teams tend not to do as well in MVP
voting as similar players on good teams. In the 1960s, no MVP winner
in either league played for a team that won fewer than 90 games.7
The Cubs won 90 games or more once in that entire decade, in 1969
(with 92 wins).
finished in the top ten in MVP voting seven times in his career.
Santo finished in the top ten four times. Some of this disparity can
probably attributed to the fact that Santo's teams were, by and
large, much worse than Robinson's. For example, both the Orioles
and Cardinals were significantly better in 1964 than the Cubs were,
at nearly every position one examines other than third base. The
Orioles, aside from Brooks
Robinson, had two other Hall of Famers in Luis
Aparicio and Robin
Roberts, as well as a wealth of very good young
players, including pitchers Milt
Pappas, Wally
Bunker and Dave
McNally. Boog
Powell, at 22, was probably the best offensive player
that the Orioles had; despite playing only 134 games, he had 39
homers, 99 rbi and an OPS+ of 176. The Cardinals, aside from Boyer,
had Lou
Brock and Bob
Gibson, both Hall of Famers, and also had Ray
Sadecki, Curt
Simmons, Bill
White, Curt
Flood, Tim
McCarver and Dick
Groat. The Cubs had Santo, Billy
Williams and Ernie
Banks, although Banks was no longer a great player in
1964 (Banks' OPS+ that year was actually below that of Norm
Siebern, the Orioles' first baseman). Larry
Jackson did win 23 games for the Cubs that year,
although as a whole the Orioles' and Cardinals' pitching was much
better than the Cubs'. Both Boyer and Robinson were fine players,
and I don't mean to suggest that they were undeserving of their MVP
awards. However, Santo was better than they were in 1964.
1964 was by far
Robinson's best year. He never came close to being as productive
at the plate again. Santo, on the other hand, followed his 1964
season with three consecutive seasons that were nearly as good as his
1964 season, having OPS+ years of 146 in 1965, 161 in 1966 and 153 in
1967. Robinson never had another year where his OPS+ exceeded 125.
Aside from 1964 and the three seasons cited above, Santo had an OPS+
greater than 125 in 1963, 1968, 1969 and 1972.
Santo was a
significantly better batter than Robinson. He had far more power,
walked a lot more and had a higher career batting average. Santo's
peak offensive value was considerably higher than Robinson's, and
Santo's peak was longer and more sustained. Santo hit far more
home runs in 15 seasons (342) than Robinson did in 23 (268). Santo
could also be counted on to drive in more runs in a given season, to
hit for a higher batting average, to walk far more often and to score
more runs.
Defensively, the
statistics support the conclusion that Robinson was better than
Santo.8 Robinson committed fewer errors and was involved
in many more double plays. Although their career range factors are
quite similar, Robinson had more years with high range factors than
Santo (although Santo's peak years in terms of range factor, 3.56
in 1966 and 3.60 in 1967, exceeded Robinson's highs of 3.49 in 1967
and 3.43 in 1974 by a wide margin). Robinson won 16 Gold Gloves;
Santo won five. However, Gold Glove voting is probably not a
definitive measure of fielding prowess; in all probability it is less
reliable than MVP voting for making definitive assessments about a
player's worth. Many players have won more than one Gold Glove9,
and there seems to have been a tendency for voters to award them
based on past reputation. While I don't doubt that Robinson was an
excellent defensive third baseman late into his career, I have some
trouble believing he deserved at least the Gold Gloves he won in the
1970s, when younger players such as Don Money, Graig Nettles and
Aurelio Rodriguez could not pry the award out of his hands until the
Orioles finally realized that his bat precluded him from continuing
as a regular following the 1975 season.10 However,
Robinson was generally regarded as perhaps the best defensive third
baseman of all time.
Robinson was a
better defensive third baseman than Santo, and was perhaps the best
of all time defensively. However, I have trouble seeing how
Robinson's defensive superiority can offset Santo's clear and
substantial advantages on the offensive side, particularly in light
of the fact that Santo was a very good defensive third baseman.11
Let's compare
two players who played second base in the Hall of Fame: Bill
Mazeroski (career OPS+ of 84) and Nellie
Fox (career OPS+ of 94). Mazeroski won 8 gold gloves;
Fox won 3. Fox led the league in hits 4 times, led the league in
triples once and won an MVP award; Mazeroski never won an MVP and
never led the league in any offensive category, other than one year
when he led the league in intentional walks. Fox scored 100 runs or
better 4 times and finished in the top ten in the league in runs
scored seven times; Mazeroski never scored more than 71 runs in a
season and never finished in the top ten. Mazeroski's career OBP
was .299; Fox's was .348. Mazeroski is regarded as perhaps the
finest double play man of all time, but can anyone make a reasonable
argument that he was a better player than Fox? Both were relatively
light hitters (Fox hit .288 lifetime, Mazeroski hit .260 and their
career slugging percentages are quite close, even though Mazeroski
hit 100 more home runs), although Fox was clearly a more productive
offensive player.
Consider another
example from players who played shortstop: Cal
Ripken had a career OPS+ of 112 while Ozzie
Smith had a career OPS+ of 87. Ozzie Smith clearly
had much more range than Ripken and is generally acclaimed as one of
the best defensive shortstops ever (winning thirteen Gold Gloves), a
claim never made about Ripken (although he did win two Gold Gloves).
Which one was the better player? How much does Smith's defensive
superiority offset Ripken's clear offensive superiority? I would
think that most major league managers and GMs, if they had to choose,
would take Ripken over Smith and Fox over Mazeroski without losing
too much sleep over it, preferring a good defender with good
offensive value over a superlative defender with marginal offensive
value. Santo's career OPS+ was 125, Robinson's 104. Do
Robinson's defensive advantages outweigh Santo's offensive
advantages? For me, I don't see how they can; the offensive
deficit is too large. Even factoring in his 1964 MVP year, Robinson
was a fair offensive player (and, at times, actually a below-average
one), a .270 hitter with some power who did not walk often. Santo was
considerably better at the plate. I don't see the defense making
up the difference.
teams did far better than Santo's, winning five division titles,
four pennants (including one in 1966, before there was a division
split) and two World Series. All told, Robinson played in 9
postseason series. Robinson was World Series MVP in 1970; in that
series, he made several legendary defensive plays. There is no
question that this should be given some weight, and should factor in
Robinson's favor. The question is, how much? Brooks Robinson was
unquestionably an integral part of the Orioles' success. However,
the Orioles did not win a pennant until they acquired Frank
Robinson in 1966, and did not win another during
Brooks' career after they traded Frank away after the 1971 season.
The Orioles in the late 60s and early 70s won for a lot of reasons:
great pitching (they led the league in team ERA in 1969, 1970 and
1971), great offense (they had team OPS+ numbers of 122 in 1966, 119
in 1969, 114 in 1970 and 122 in 1971 and led the league in runs
scored in each of those years except 1969, when they finished
second), great defense and great managing. Brooks Robinson's OPS+
numbers in the four years Baltimore won the pennant (1966, 1969, 1970
and 1971) were below the Orioles' team OPS+ numbers in each year
except 1966, when his OPS+ was 124 and the team's was 122. In 1969
he batted .234 with an OPS+ of 92. At least three or four Oriole
players in each of those years were more valuable offensively than
Brooks Robinson. Aside from Frank Robinson, those Oriole teams had
superb leadoff hitters in Curt
Blefary and Don
Buford and significant power from Boog
Powell. Merv
Rettenmund, Paul
Blair and Davey
Johnson also contributed more offensively than Brooks
There are a lot
of players who played on pennant winners and World Series champions
who are not in the Hall of Fame. Although playing on a winner should
be given some weight, the fact that someone played on a winner is not
sufficient, in and of itself, to put someone in the Hall of Fame.
For example, there were many fine players on the 1950s Yankees, such
as Gil
McDougald, who are not in and should not be in.
Similarly, performance in a World Series or playoff series should be
given some weight, but no one will put Joe
Rudi, Tommie
Agee or Graig
Nettles in the Hall of Fame simply because of
outstanding defensive play in a World Series. I would agree that in
an otherwise marginal case, factors such as play for a pennant winner
or post-season performance can make a difference in determining
whether someone should make the Hall of Fame, but I don't think
either Robinson or Santo is an otherwise marginal case. Santo never
played for a division winner or pennant winner, but, again, how much
of that is his fault? As for giving Robinson an "edge" over
Santo, I don't see how a great performance in one World Series can
tip the scales in Robinson's favor when Santo's entire career was
better. If you give credit for Robinson hitting .429 in the 1970
World Series, shouldn't you also take away credit for his hitting
.053 in the 1969 World Series, which the Orioles lost? How much
credit do you give to Robinson based on the fact he played on a great
team? While the Cubs had improved from 1964 and were competitive in
the late '60s and early '70s, the Orioles were markedly better
than the Cubs at that time (the Orioles averaged 106 wins a year from
1969 through 1971). I do not see Robinson's presence on these
teams making up the difference that Santo's offensive numbers give
None of this is
meant in disrespect of Brooks Robinson. Bill James in 2001 ranked him
as the 91st best player of all time, and he is deservedly in the Hall
of Fame. However, Santo was a better player.
and Lindstrom
In his 1994 book
on the Hall of Fame, Bill James pointed out that throughout baseball
history, Hall of Famers have accounted for approximately 10% of all
at bats. He demonstrated that this was true not only when examining
baseball history as a whole, but also when examining individual years
and decades, with the notable exception being the period from
1925-35, with the percentage of Hall of Fame at bats being over 20%
in each year during that period except one and being as high as 24%
in 1929. James argues from these numbers that the players in those
years are "disproportionately represented in the Hall of Fame,
overrepresented by about 100 percent. There are about twice as many
players from that generation in the Hall of Fame as there are from
any other."12 Part of this is probably due to the
unusually high batting statistics from that era. However, as
discussed briefly above, many of those numbers were not that
remarkable in the context in which they occurred. Lindstrom
and Traynor,
neither of whom was an elite offensive player when compared to his
contemporaries, are from that era. Traynor was elected by the BBWAA
in 1948. Lindstrom was selected by the Veteran's Committee during
the 1970s, and has proved to be a highly controversial choice, one
that bas been cited as evidence of incompetence and cronyism by the
Veteran's Committee during those years.13 As was shown
above, neither Lindstrom or Traynor stood out amongst their
contemporaries the way Santo did.
The conditions
under which Lindstrom and Traynor played were very different from
those in place during Santo's career. First, the level of play was
more competitive in 1968 than it was in 1930. For one thing, in
1930, major league baseball was still whites only; in the 60s there
were many very talented African-American and Latin ballplayers in the
National League. Also, many of the hitting-friendly ballparks in
existence in 1930, such as Ebbets Field, the Baker Bowl in
Philadelphia and Sportsman's Park, were no longer in the National
League, replaced by parks that were much more favorable to pitchers,
such as Dodger Stadium, the Astrodome, Candlestick Park and Busch
Stadium, with deeper fences and more foul territory. Gloves were
better in the 1960s. Night baseball did not exist in 1930. Relief
pitchers were not used as effectively in 1930 as they came to be used
later. As described above, the mid- to late-sixties also featured an
enlarged strike zone and elevated mounds. Lindstrom and Traynor did
not compete in the environment Santo did; in their era, hits and runs
were far more plentiful and worth less. The inflated batting
statistics of that era, and their superficial appeal, have led to
overrepresentation of players from that era in the Hall of Fame.
It is far easier
to say that Santo fits within the top 10% of players playing
regularly (to whom the number of total at bats in any period can be
attributed) during his years in the game than it is to argue that
Traynor or Lindstrom belongs in the top 10% during their time.
Having said that, Traynor's case for being in the Hall of Fame is a
decent one even though Santo's offensive numbers (other than
batting average) relative to his contemporaries were better.
Lindstrom's case is much less strong. Although Lindstrom had a few
good years, he simply did not have enough of them and, even in his
best years, was not at the level of Santo's best years.
Bill James on
Fred Lindstrom: "As an offensive player he was by no means one of
the top players of his time, and as a defensive player he was so
outstanding that he was shifted to the outfield in mid-career. His
selection to the Hall of Fame, while it ignores players like Ken
Boyer, Ron Santo, Ed Yost and Stan Hack, was a bad joke." (1988
Historical Baseball Abstract, p. 368). Lindstrom was only a
regular for seven seasons. He did not play after he was 30, and did
not play as a regular after he was 27.
A great deal of
the appeal of Traynor and Lindstrom to Hall of Fame selectors would
seem to have come from their batting averages. Traynor and Lindstrom
each had a higher career batting average than Santo. Traynor hit
.320 for his career. During his career, the league batting average
was .295, meaning that his career average was 8.47% higher than the
league average. Lindstrom hit .311 for his career. During his
career, the league batting average was .290, making his career
average 7.24% higher than the league average. Santo hit .277 for his
career. During Santo's career, the league batting average was
.268, giving him a career average that was 3.36% higher than the
league average. A player who had a batting average that was 8.47% or
7.24% better than a league average of .268 would hit .290 or .287,
respectively. A player who had a batting average that was 3.36%
higher than a league batting average of .295 or .290 would hit .305
or .300, respectively. Of course, it would be wrong to assert that,
had Traynor or Lindstrom played in the 1960s, or had Santo played in
the '20s and '30s, such averages represent how they would have
performed, because we cannot know that. However, as noted above, a
key measure of a player is the player's performance relative to his
peers at the time he played. While there are those who would argue
that a .320 career batting average is impressive under any
circumstances, it clearly does not represent the same level of
achievement in the era that Traynor played as it would have in the
era that Santo played. Furthermore, although Traynor and Lindstrom
were better relative to their contemporaries in terms of batting
average than Santo was relative to his contemporaries, when on base
percentage and power are factored in, Santo has a distinct advantage,
as the OPS+ numbers above show.
Dick Allen, who also played third base that year, also had a better
year at the plate than Robinson or Boyer, with an OPS+ of 162 in his
rookie season.
Cf. http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/bp/1409616.html,
an article by Joe Sheehan of Baseball Prospectus.
Here I insert the obligatory caveat concerning defensive statistics:
that they may well be driven by factors that are not measurable and
that are beyond the control of the player. For example, an
infielder's range factor may vary due to whether he plays on a team
with a ground ball pitching staff, and the number of double plays of
an infielder may vary due to the skill of teammates.
By contrast, when Santo won his first Gold Glove in 1964, he beat out
Ken Boyer, who had won the five previous Gold Gloves at third base in
the NL and who was, as noted above, awarded the 1964 NL MVP. That
Santo knocked off a defending repeat winner is perhaps a particular
validation of his worth as a fielder in 1964.
Santo shares the NL records for third basemen for having led the
league in putouts and assists 7 times each. Santo shares the major
league record for having led the league in double plays 6 times and
having led the league in chances 9 times.
The Politics of Glory at 251-52. A similar bias has been
identified in James Vail's book, The Road to Cooperstown: A
Critical History of Baseball's Hall of Fame Selection Process,
McFarland (2001), in which the author examined the statistics of
players who met the Hall of Fame's ten-year service requirement and
who had been elected. Players from the 1920-45 era currently comprise
about 33% of all Hall of Fame members.
Lindstrom was selected when Bill Terry and Waite Hoyt, two former
teammates, were on the Veteran's Committee. See The Road to
Cooperstown at 107. See also The Politics of Glory
at 162-171. During the time Bill Terry and Frank Frisch served on
the Veteran's Committee in the late 60s and early 70s, several
players were elected whose Hall of Fame credentials were extremely
weak, but who had played with Frisch or Terry on the Giants or the
Good Cub Reading on a Cold Winter Morning
Sorry for the thread hijacos again.
In todays Sun Times-
-Cubs still in play for Peavy
-Payroll could go 10% above $ 130 million projected
-Cubs could go after left handed bat
-Team to be sold by opening day
-High end seats ticket prices are going up
-And new tix structure pricing for high demand games(Sox, Cardinals)
Re: Good Cub Reading on a Cold Winter Morning
i read it as 10% above the 130M from 2008, which is around $143 M....
only $22M for arbitration players, auto-renewals and new blood....
Re: Good Cub Reading on a Cold Winter Morning
also says Cubs wlling to eat up to $4MM of Marquis' contract to move him....
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
If all the people who claim they voted for Santo actually did votefor Santo into the HOF, he would all ready be there. I'm looking at you, Joe Morgan....I've asked before, I'll ask again, who are the hold outs in Ronnie's vote?
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
burt bly. agrees.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
Rotoworld: The A's, Dodgers, Giants, Cubs, Brewers and Rangers have all expressed some degree of interest in free agent Randy Johnson, the East Valley Tribune reports.
Re: in today's trib
Ron Santo 'more nervous' about Hall of Fame vote
Ron seems to think this is his last chance. No cameras, no statements unless he makes it.
Re: in today's trib
Poor Ron.
Maybe he should do a Joe Morgan special and put down all the current players to make himself look better. Also he should pronounce the word 'comfort', 'caaumfort'.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
I never read this whole article. Too much of it weighs on Santo's tendency to take walks.
One bad snippet though is when he compares Ozzie and Brooks to Ripken and Santo. Ripken won a ROY and two MVPs and went to lots of ASG's as the leading vote getter. That aside, he's talking about defense.
Santo 60
Ripken 160
Robinson 286
Smith 247
Which one of those four is the least alike?
Smith also stole 580 Bases, something that OPS+ doesn't even look at.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
Nah... they didn't use FRAA to evaluate players in Santo's and Robinson's era (or Ripken's and Smith's era, for that matter), so we can't use it to evaluate the players.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
It's not my argument, I am just pointing out the flaws in it.
Nice try though.
Let me elaborare before you start trolling a little harder.
226 runs = roughly 22 wins. That's a lot of wins. Three or four MVP caliber seasons worth.
Santo hit .277 with 342 HR's and 1331 RBI's
Robinson hit .267 with 268 HR's and 1357 RBI's.
If you're going to dumb down the defense into 'Well Santo was nearly as good' but obsess over the offense, it's just as valid to obsess over the defense and realize that Santo wasn't nearly as good, he was two rungs below Robinson, and dumb down the offense.
My problem with these three articles, though interesting is that they're not objective. The question never is, 'Should Santo be in the Hall of Fame?', it's always a statement 'Santo should be in the Hall of Fame', now let me illustrate it.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
plenty of articles from non-biased Cubs fans out there on why Santo should be in the Hall as well.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
I am sure that's true. But I'd like to see some of the negatives brought to light a little more objectively.
The crux of this argument seems to be 'There's a bunch of other guys that shouldn't have gotten in who are in, so put Santo in'. I don't like that argument.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
"The crux of this argument seems to be 'There's a bunch of other guys that shouldn't have gotten in who are in, so put Santo in'."
I think the crux is more like "These guys have been deemed worthy of the Hall, and Santo appears to have been better than a number of them. Therefore, Santo belongs in the in the Hall." No one else is saying those guys don't belong--they're saying that if those guys belong, then Santo belongs.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
"Part of this is probably due to the unusually high batting statistics from that era. However, as discussed briefly above, many of those numbers were not that remarkable in the context in which they occurred. Lindstrom and Traynor, neither of whom was an elite offensive player when compared to his contemporaries, are from that era."
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
"As was shown above, neither Lindstrom or Traynor stood out amongst their contemporaries the way Santo did."
These are only two of the players being referenced in this 3-part article. Hardly the crux of the argument.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
Neal, I'm sorry you didn't like the article. As I recall, you didn't much care for it when it originally ran two years ago.
I didn't use FRAA because I am somewhat statistically challenged and I don't like to use numbers that I can't calculate myself, either due to my limited brainpower or because I lack access to the information or databases necessary to calculate them. I did include a brief discussion of win shares, however. As I understand it, a lot of the Baseball Prospectus stats are proprietary to them. If we are going to use BP stats, I think it behooves us to look at WARP3 (which includes fielding). Santo's career WARP3 number is 112.8. Robinson's, despite his playing 8 more full seasons, is 119.3.
Career numbers sometimes obscure the impact of big years. Between 1963 and 1968 Santo had a WARP3 of 62.5, which ranks as the 14th best five year span of any player since 1900. Those big years are probably one of Santo's best arguments for merting election.
Robinson had a longer career than Santo, framed at the beginning and the end by seasons which added little offensive value. for about twelve years in the middle of his career (1960-1971), he was a decent offensive player and a superlative defensive one. Santo was in the majors at 20, but faded rapidly after he was 30 and retired at 33. If you compare 1960 through 1974, when they were contemporaries (period framed by Robinson's first and last good years, and including Santo's rookie season (where he played in only 95 games) and year with the White Sox, the WARP3 totals are Robinson 113 and Santo 112.7. From 1963 through 1968 Robinson played well and Santo played much better.
The big point I was trying to make of course was that if Robinson is in, Santo should go in too.
If you did not read the whole article, you may have glossed over the point where I said that "Traynor's case for being in the Hall of Fame is a decent one." Lindstrom was inexcusable, but I do not have a problem with Traynor being in. As I said elsewhere, if Santo's argument was predicated simply on his being better than Lindstrom or Kell, I would agree he should not go in. I think the numbers show that he was not just better than they were, he was better than half of the current third baemen in the Hall, including Robinson and Traynor, who were both BBWAA (not VC) selections.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
Well, I have a small quibble to you saying that you won't use the BP's proprietary stats, but consistently use OPS+, which I am relatively confident you're not calculating yourself.
But when you look at the WARP3 numbers, you can see that Robinson's defense was so valuable that he and Santo were essentially deadlocked during Satno's career. When you start talking about career OPS's then you should throw out those years that Robinson played from 34+, it's not Robinson's fault that Santo couldn't play anymore, nor should Santo be rewarded for having a short career when being evaluated for an honor where a long career clearly is a valued assett.
There's some other minor things that bothered me, like I suspect though haven't researched, that you cherry picked your OPS+ seasons benchmarks to put Santo in a better light.
But all in all it's a pretty thorough analysis, and and interesting read. The proof is in the pudding, as they say, and it looks like, just as I've argued before, that people who played at and reported the time didn't consider Ronny a HoF'er. We may never know why, but it would certainly be an interesting study to find out why.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
I cherry picked nothing on OPS+. All of their seasons are listed. It's not Santo's fault that he had 4 OPS+ seasons better than Robinson's best or 7 seasons better than Robinson's second best. A big part of the argument was that Santo had a higher and more sustained offensive peak than Robinson, which is frankly inarguable.
Also, I did not say that I calculated the OPS. I said I avoided information that I could not calculate myself based on available information. I can calculate OPS+. I did not use FRAA, BRAR, FRAR or WARP3 because I do not have the information available to calculate them. I can certainly run formulas. As I said, I don't like using them unless I know how the elements of them are calculated.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
Where did 110, 130 and 150 come from? Is that some standard that I've never heard of before?
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
Someone over at MLBTradeRumors is making an argument for the acquisition of Peavy. The headliner: Peavy is a staunch Christian and therefore will be a better clubhouse presence than atheists/agnostics. Brilliant. Someone should tell this to Todd Walker. I make fun of this moronocity as a staunch (whatever the fuck that means) Christian, myself.
Re: Peavy the staunch Christian
Starting pitchers tend to be arrogant sons of bitches, and Peavy is no exception---staunch Christian or not.
Peavy gets arrested on disorderly conduct charge
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
well he should be gunning for COL, then.
COL has some not-so-hidden issues going on there with extreme christianity.
and no...i'm not calling it a negative or destructive or blah blah blah...but it is a huge part of their clubhouse to the point where it effects team chemistry decisions.
ARZ, when being run more directly by Joe Sr., had a similar (but less formal) structure where Joe. Sr. favored character and faith as a starting point for players on his D-Backs. the man made a bold statement about bonds in the mid-90s (pre-HR-mania of the late 90s) that he will *never* play for the D-Backs based solely on how he handles himself in the public arena...specifically incidents at meetings/gathersing and run-ins at airports.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
You're right, crunch. I live in Denver, and a month seldom passes without one of the local news outlets doing a story about the strong christianity in the Rockies' clubhouse. I am sorry, but there is NOTHING that I have ever seen that suggests that people who consider themselves christians are any less likely to be bad guys. It should not be a part of personnel decisions.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
"better clubhouse presence than atheists/agnostics"
If the Cubs can bring in Jedi believing Left handed leadoff hitter, I say May the Force be with You.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
Wasn't Peavy the jagbag that went after D Lee? That would be an interesting meeting in the clubhouse. The Cubs will probably try to sell seats to that somehow too.
There is no question in my mind that Santo should be in the hall of fame. He was a dominant player at his position in his league for a extended period of time. Brooks benefited from national exposure in postseason ball and I can't help but wonder if that had been Santo instead of Robinson, would we be having this discussion yearly about Brooks?
I grew up watching the wizard of Oz in south central IL, and even though I hate the cardinals (hate is probably an understatement) You would not believe the defensive plays he made. The man truly redefined the position and I have never seen anyone as good with the glove since (Vizquel never was the acrobat Oz was).
The "Jagbag"
You have too much Mike North on the brain...
Anyway - the jagbag was Chris Young.
Re: The "Jagbag"
Thanks for the help E-man! I believe that if Santo doesn't make it as a player, he will be in the hall as an announcer eventually. I just personally would like to see him make it based on his on the field accomplishments, not popularity as an announcer (lets face it, not too many announcers can get away with walking into the booth after the break and saying "what just happened?" on the air, legitimate reasons for his lateness or not) Cub broadcasts wouldn't be the same without him!
These articles on Santo have been fantastic! Is James as emphatic about Dawson getting into the Hall?
Also.... What right fielder/lefty bat makes us more athletic? I hesitate to even ask, but is there any chance we get Roberts in his walk year and move Dero to right? This would solve the leadoff issue, address athleticism, and right field issues. I think Dero is athletic enough to perform better in the outfield defensively if given his full attention for the season.
Re: The "Jagbag"
"that if Santo doesn't make it as a player, he will be in the hall as an announcer eventually"
Joe Carter and that annoying woman who does Yankees games, too.
"Roger is in George's Bawx!!"
Re: The "Jagbag"
Ron for HOF announcer's wing!
on his plaque...
"Oh no!!!! He dropped the ball!"
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
Mike Sweeney here in KC was a big Christian too, in fact, probably the most hardcore Christian conservative in the big leagues. I think the reaction was pretty predictable; it totally rubbed some players the wrong way, it really made a positive difference for several young players, overall, he was just a magnetic guy that you either gravitated towards or you did not. No big deal.
You won't find anyone that would ever say that Sweeney wasn't the NICEST guy in the bigs though, that is guaranteed. So if Peavy is the same way, I don't see how it could possibly hurt anything.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
I believe the 2007 Rockies has alot of holy rollers thanks to the Denny Neagle car hummer.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
I think there is a former detroit tiger or too who might disagree with you! Didn't he beat down Jeff Weaver? Maybe I am confused again.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
if I may...
Ron Santo:Brooks Robinson::Alan Trammell:Ozzie Smith::Tim Raines:Rickey Henderson
all three were great players overshadowed by someone a little greater....Santo's the best of those not in imo.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
rock raines! rickey! coleman! mcgee!
i grew up in the early 80s taking huge SB numbers for granted. it wasn't until the early 90s that i finally realized what i was seeing in the early/mid 80s wasn't the norm.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
Yeah, me too.
Rickey was awesome.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
couldn't have said it better myself. Rickey and Vince affected the way pitchers threw and catchers called the game when they got to first. Saw Vince steal his 40th or 42nd consecutive base. He would damn near have both feet on the carpet for a leadoff. Everyone new he was going to run, and yet it was still difficult to throw him out! A real firecracker on the base paths. Rickey was even better obviously.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
FYI.... I don't think anyone has stoled 100 since 1987. What a year for the Hawk and a dark cloud entered as well... Big Mac swatting 49 as a rook in oakland after Jose Canseco swats 33 as a rookie? I was so naive. Dawson seems even more incredible to me comparing his clean numbers to the tainted ones. That dude and Ryno lead by example not by their mouth... sorry just reminiscing.
If I didn't know better
I'd think Maddux planned this the whole way...
he'll be only the 2nd pitcher with over 3000 K's and less than 1000 BB's...by one walk.
The other pitcher is Ferguson Jenkins.
Re: If I didn't know better
He's been that for three years.
If he were looking at stats I think it's more likely that it was one more regular season win than Clemens.
Re: If I didn't know better
obviously I was kidding, just amazing he managed to keep it under by one walk.
my guess on him retiring is that it was his first losing record since 1987 and the Dodgers and Padres don't want him and he doesn't want to pitch anywhere else.
Re: If I didn't know better
The Dodgers at least say they wabt him and he was 13-15 for the wonderful '05 team.
Re: If I didn't know better
missed '05, my bad....
someone explain this BCS
crap to me?
How is Texas not ahead of Oklahoma?
Re: someone explain this BCS
it's all based on how many free masons are on the coaching staff...complex shit.
Re: someone explain this BCS
Same way Texas is ahead of Texas Tech, I guess.
Re: The Hall of Fame Case for Ron Santo (Part 2 of 3)
"Are you a Commie? No Commies in my car...and no Christians either!"
Recent comments
lester going for #20...cubs haven't had a 20 game winner since d.ellsworth in 1963.
J-Hey not finishing with an offensive onslaught.
If Geoff Blum could be a Playoff hero, there is hope still...
Giants scare me. I think you're wrong about Bumgarner, he would pitch on short rest for Game 2 and then full rest for Game 5. Cueto would go Game 1, then short rest in game 4. Add in some really tough outs in that lineup and I want nothing to do with them. With that rotation they can easily steal a series.
Cards are a tough matchup. The rivalry evens out their comparable lack of talent. And like someone said, they love HRs, which is how to beat the Cubs. The upside is that I would feel really good about Lester twice against STL.
j.buchanan with a nice start...5ip 2h 1bb 3k, 0r/er
zobrist with 2HR and a double through 8
heyward 0-4 :(
Mark Gonzales @MDGonzales
Soler likely to return Sunday, Maddon says
Right now, I'd like to see the Mets first, Giants 2nd.
I believe that since most of the team from last years' NLCS is on the squad this year, they will really amp their game up even more to kick their ass in payback for 2015.
The Giants just do not have the depth in years past, and I think all things equal - and at Wrigley - they could handle them.
I do not want to see the Cards, period. Or their fans, media, or Joe Buck.
I don't want to play Braves in the first round. Any friggin team in the league can win 3 of 5..I hate the first round. Furthermore, I wanted to play the Marlins in 2003 and the Mets over Dodgers last year.
With that said in reverse order:
3. Cardinals: It will be devastating to lose in the first round, but even worse to their main rival. It is increased incentive for the Cardinals, especially after last year. Cards would have nothing to lose, Cubs have everything to lose.
2. Giants: Rotation in the playoffs scare me a bit, but what a lousy team.
1. Mets--because of the losses in the rotation
2. Giants--because they're not the team they were BUT they maybe have bullshit even-year magic?
3. Cardinals--because rivalry and not making the playoffs hurts them more than losing in the NLDS plus getting eliminated by them in the playoffs would make for horrible sports commentary next throughout next season.
Who's asking?
CLE/DET rained out last night already, possible rain-outs in New York (vs. Baltimore), Boston(vs. Toronto) and Philly(vs. Mets) this weekend too.
Not only games involving playoff spots that would need to be played, but any that involve home field advantage.
I got the first one! Second one I'm not even sure what even/odd betting is.
any opponent preference for NLDS?
Mets are down to 1 great pitcher instead of 4. Syndegaard may pitch Sunday which means if Mets win the WC game, he'd be set up for Game 1. There's a chance they clinch a spot by Sunday so he'd pitch the WC and then we'd probably get Colon for Game 1. They've certainly had the hottest bats over the last week and month out of the WC options.
A couple of Cub related puzzles.
Can't teach height and thinness
Hopefully Pirates don't call up A. Lincoln.
j.buchanan going friday...should be...baseball...or something like it.


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Hunting the Last Wild Manby Margaret Jull Costa Angela Vallvey
Falling somewhere between Louisa May Alcott's Little Women and Federico Garcia Lorca's The House of Bernarda Alba, Hunting the Last Wild Man tells the story of Candela and her extended family of nine women. Our protagonist has had her disappointments in love and floats from one job to another, ending up at the local mortuary as an apprentice embalmer. There she can tuck herself away from the everyday hubbub of life's demands.Late one night Candela finds she must work on the father of a gypsy clan, who has left instructions that he must be buried with his cane. Her days are changed forever when she discovers that the cane holds more than just the old man's wishes.With rich images suggestive of an Almódovar film, with emotional depth and intelligence, Vallvey explores the modern woman's cynicism, as Candela attempts to integrate an impossibly marvelous stranger into her life.
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Three generations of Northwestern theatre combine talents
Three generations of School of Communication alumni and faculty are joining forces this spring at Victory Gardens Theater in the world premiere of Jacob and Jack. Directed by Victory Gardens artistic director Dennis Zacek (GC65, GC70), the cast includes assistant theatre professor Daniel Cantor and alumni Andrew Keltz (C08), Laura Scheinbaum (C07) and Roslyn Alexander (C46), who was taught at Northwestern by legendary Northwestern theatre professor Alvina Krause (C28, GC33). Current Northwestern senior Scott Weinstein is an understudy for Keltz's role.
The alumni, Cantor said, all greatly fond of their respective years at Northwestern, have traded stories about their time spent on campus and involved in the theatre program. Especially fascinating are Alexander's stories of her time studying with Krause. "It's interesting how they revered her, and how her brilliance still has an effect today," Cantor said, noting that he is also influenced by Krause's methods in his own teaching.
"I think it's a happy coincidence that all these people are involved," Cantor said.
The play, written by Victory Gardens ensemble playwright James Sherman, tells the story of Jack Shore, a well-known television personality, who is appearing on stage for one night only in a tribute to his grandfather, Jacob Shemerinsky, great star of the Yiddish Theatre. Backstage, in his dressing room, Jack confronts his challenges as an actor and as a husband to his co-starring wife. Meanwhile, 75 years in the past, Jack's grandfather Jacob is having problems of his own. The actors reprise roles both in present day and in the past.
"It's a great actor play for everyone," Cantor said. "Everyone does two different roles."
Jacob and Jack opens for previews at the Victory Gardens Biograph Theater May 14-23 and runs May 26 through June 20. For more information and to buy tickets, visit


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There was only one escape from the dread and terror of the labyrinth subgenre…to destroy Labyrinth Inhabitant Magazine!
There was only one escape from the dread and terror of the labyrinth subgenre…to destroy Labyrinth Inhabitant Magazine!
An exciting new product, from the people who brought you escapism.
Does a quirk of human memory make readers sympathize with labyrinth inhabitants?
The Editor's Notes essay for Issue 8 comes in the form of a review. Many thanks to all this issue's authors, as well as to everyone else who submitted!
Welcome to Issue 7, now with more features, less combustible servers, and probably fewer emails threatening to de-list Labyrinth Inhabitant from writers' market sites.
A review of the casual webgame on Blurst.com, and a preview of the stories in this issue.
Roger Ebert has said the problem with obsessive fans is they only ask questions they already know the answers to. But sometimes a fan finds out more than he ever wanted to know…
What does Neal Stephenson's Anathem have to do with the stories in this issue of Labyrinth Inhabitant Magazine?
Much like Biosphere 2, Labyrinth Inhabitant Magazine was conceived as a hermetic environment where stories could attempt to survive in isolation, uncontaminated by readers or ad revenue.
Remember that scene in the Da Vinci Code when Tom Hanks really had to get to a library? This is gonna be just like that.
Copyright © 2016 Labyrinth Inhabitant Magazine - All Rights Reserved


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Artist Suzanne Bocanegra has already presented her performance piece "When a Priest Marries a Witch" to audiences at the Museum of Modern Art, Princeton University and in Brooklyn's experimental theater, the Chocolate Factory.
On Nov. 1, she will bring her show to the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston (MFAH) and is a bit nervous about the reaction of one particular audience member…her mother.
The performance is based upon Bocanegra's upbringing in the Houston area, and her mother is a central character in its story.
"I hope she likes it," said Bocanegra. "But, I also hope Houstonians like it too. I actually wrote this for a 'yankee' audience, so the first part of the show is spent explaining aspects of Houston. It will be interesting to me how this part of the show will go over. Will people think this is funny? Or, will they be wondering why I'm telling them this stuff?"
Presented by the University of Houston's Cynthia Woods Mitchell Center for the Arts in collaboration with MFAH, "When a Priest Marries a Witch" will be performed at 6:30 p.m., Nov. 1 in MFAH's Brown Auditorium (1001 Bissonnet St.). Admission is free.
Creative Pride talked to Bocanegra to get the scoop on the show's provocative title and what it will be like to return to her hometown.
Creative Pride: So, what's the story behind "When a Priest Marries a Witch?"
Suzanne Bocanegra: I wanted to tell the story of how I became an artist. The story had to do with growing up in Pasadena, Texas, my Catholic church and Bob Fowler, the artist who was commissioned to redo the church.
I wrote up a lecture and got slides to illustrate it. I rehearsed it once on my own. Then, I decided that it needed to be framed outside of myself. So, I asked my friend Paul Lazar, who is an actor, to help tell my story…as me.
CP: With Paul Lazar telling the story, is gender completely removed from the narrator?
SB: No. He basically says, "When I was a little girl growing up in Texas." He does it entirely as me.
He also is repeating after me. He's listening to my voice telling this story on an iPod and is repeating after me.
I also tell the story in this show. I tell it over the PA system, and there's a three-second delay. The way it's developed is that you hear both of us tell the same story.
CP: So, you're basically saying the same thing with a three-second delay?
SB: He tries to say the same thing. Sometimes, he doesn't quite get it right. He's an actor, so he gets more laughs with his lines.
The performance is interesting because audiences hear two separate versions of the same story and how different they are…even though we're saying the exact same thing.
We put it together very quickly. It was an experiment to see what would happen and, lo and behold, the chemistry was right. It really worked.
I actually received a Warhol Grant to film it, and we'll do that when it's performed at the Baltimore Contemporary Museum next year.
CP: What can you tell me about the title?
SB: I don't want to give it away. It's definitely a punchline, and you don't get that until the end. But, it's a true story. Houstonians may remember it when it happened in the late 1960s and early 1970s. It made the papers.
CP: It sounds like the show has really taken off considering how many places it's been performed.
SB: Yes. It's great! I'm going to do another one. It will pick up where this one leaves off. This story ends when I am 10 years old. The next one will focus on my middle school years.
CP: This also will be set in Houston, correct?
SB: Yes. I didn't leave Texas until I was 25.
CP: Do you miss anything about Texas?
SB: Good barbeque. Good Mexican food. My kids are really into Texas. My oldest son wears Texas T-shirts and tells people that he's half Texan. He is completely obsessed.
Although I haven't lived there in years, it still provides creative inspiration. I don't know what it is. There's just something about Texas that lends itself to storytelling.


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Joan Ellison comes to the Academy
Just in time for Mother's Day, the Academy Theatre is hosting the performance ensemble Circa 1939 and their show "Joan Ellison: A Date with Judy" on Saturday, May 11, at 7:30 p.m. at 275 Chestnut St. Tickets are $20.50.
Ellison is no stranger to the Academy Theatre and Meadville. She was last seen in December 2011 performing with the Erie Philharmonic in its annual holiday show. Numerous audience requests prompted the Academy Theatre to bring her back to our stage for her Judy Garland performance.
The show consists of the music of young Judy Garland from her very first radio performance to her 21st birthday, as "Meet Me In St. Louis" was going into production for MGM.
It's a radio show from Cleveland station WCLE on April 22, 1944. Radio personality Mark Flanders and girl singer Joan Ellison do the honors, and there's also a surprise for Joan on the air: a reunion with the rest of the girl trio that first started on Iowa Barn Dance Frolic, The Melody Maids. It's a celebration of the world of Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland, the delights of being young in Hollywood in the late thirties, and small-town America in a world at war.
The show stars Ellison, with Flanders as your radio host, pianist Jason Aquila, and the Melody Maids Jodie Ricci and Lauren Emily Jones.
The Cleveland Plain Dealer wrote: "With her period gown and canny physical inflections, Ellison draws the listener deep into the emotions being portrayed ... (Ellison) brings a keen blend of vocal splendor and verbal crispness to every musical moment. She inhabits the texts as if living them anew."
Circa 1939 was founded by Flanders and Ellison, and features collaborations with several Cleveland-area musicians. The troupe creates shows highlighting authentic recreations from vintage recordings, bringing back classic American songs from radio, Broadway and talking pictures as they originally sounded. Their roster includes "A Date With Judy! The Songs of Young Judy Garland," "Gershwin On the Air" (with duo-piano accompaniment) and "Your Hit Parade of 1939."
An Oberlin Conservatory graduate, Ellison made her Severance Hall debut in 2005 as a headliner with the Cleveland Pops Orchestra, and has played leading ladies of the Rodgers & Hammerstein canon to critical acclaim. Recent theatrical roles include Julie in "Carousel," Nellie in "South Pacific," Lizzie in "110 in the Shade," Claudia in "Nine" and Eliza in "My Fair Lady." When she isn't arranging or performing with Circa 1939, she enjoys singing repeat engagements with the Pops and the Erie Philharmonic; a concert of Garland songs with orchestra, called Get Happy, is in the works. An adjunct professor of voice in Baldwin Wallace Conservatory's music theater program and at the Cleveland Institute of Music, and a visiting guest artist with the Case Western Reserve University/Cleveland Play House M.F.A. Acting Program, she is a member of Actors' Equity Association.
Flanders has plied his art as a '30s-style song-and-dance man at the Palace Theatre at Playhouse Square, the Ohio Theatre, the Statler Hotel, the Silver Grille, Cain Park, and as a Shakespearean actor with Great Lakes Theatre Festival and with Shakespeare & Company in Washington, D.C. He was working toward a Master's degree in dance at George Washington University when he saw a Fred Astaire film festival at the Kennedy Center. He spent the next decades destroying wooden floors with his tap shoes, as well as playing more than 40 roles in Cleveland- and D.C.-area theaters, from Biron in Love's Labors Lost to Tulsa in Gypsy.
Pianist Jason Aquila holds a Master of Music degree in Collaborative Piano and Chamber Music from the Cleveland Institute of Music. He spent 10 years as Coordinator of Accompanying at Western Illinois University and has also presented concerts in Indiana and Florida. Aquila is currently teaching private piano lessons, coaching chamber music and serving as a staff accompanist at the Baldwin Wallace Conservatory of Music.
He was the assistant music director for their recent production of "La Boheme." He serves as organist and bell choir director at Church of the Redeemer in Westlake, Ohio.
Trio member Lauren Emily Jones has been involved in theater since she was a little kid in the chorus of community theater shows. This passion followed her into college at Ohio Northern University where she is very involved with the theater program and still juggles her early childhood education major all while pursuing her certification as an intervention specialist. She discovered her passion for the jazz/big band style (and the 1940s era in general) when she was the lead singer for her high school jazz band. She has continued to polish this style of singing through her first three years of college and is very excited to be involved with this group.
Trio member Jodie Ricci's experience includes music direction at Cain Park ("Sweeney Todd," "Harold and Maude," "Oliver" and "Kiss Me Kate") and the Beck Center for the Arts. Ricci has performed as a rehearsal accompanist and orchestra member at the McLeod Theater Company, Baldwin Wallace Conservatory, Berea Summer Theater, the North Star Players and the Butler Musical Theater Guild. Her teaching experience includes instruction in piano and music theory at Baldwin Wallace. She is currently a member of the performing arts faculty at Hawken School in Lyndhurst, Ohio.
This roster of talented artists brings an awe-inspiring and nostalgic show to the Academy Theatre. A perfect Mother's Day gift or wonderful evening out with friends.
For tickets and more information about "A Date With Judy," call (814) 337-8000 or visit www.theacademytheatre.org.
For more information or to hear clips from Circa 1939's debut CD, "A Date With Judy" (available on iTunes) and the upcoming Gershwin release, visit www.Circa1939.com.


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Kokopelli Winery is Back!
The Sonoran desert contains many legends, including that of the story-telling Kokopelli and his mystical flute. He was said to travel the rugged desert lands, bringing stories and gifts from afar, a link between the remote communities of the Zuni, Hopi, and Hohokam. The arrival of Kokopelli was celebrated wherever he went.
In keeping with this tradition of celebration, Kokopelli Winery was first established in 1991, and became one of Arizona's first large-scale wine producers. Today, Kokopelli continues to produce a wide range of varieties that are crafted to satisfy every palate. Kokopelli wines are a southwestern favorite wherever people gather together in friendship, celebration, and relaxation.
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Fixed PriceDelivery by February 19, 2014
Looking for a graphic assistant to help me resize some graphics on Adobe Flash.
This job requires someone who can start now. Will suit someone who has access to Adobe Flash Pro. Knowledge of animation in Flash a bonus but not necessary.
There is a series of graphics related tasks for the successful candidate. For the right candidate, this could lead to ongoing graphics assistant/virtual assistant work.
If interested, apply by quoting the word Gotcha in your reply. Also list what graphic related work you have done in the past(eg Photoshop remove background etc).
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Tangelo Park Elementary was locked down due to police activity in the area Monday.
The school was put on lockdown at 2:06 p.m., according to Orange County Public Schools.
Deputies said they were searching for a suspect who tried to break into a home on Anzio Street.
The views expressed are not those of this site, this station or its affiliated companies. By posting your comments you agree to accept our terms of use.blog comments powered by Disqus


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Tuesday, June 16, 2009
Thousands of college
students counting on state merit scholarships this fall may be in for a
surprise, as lawmakers are poised to gut the state's financial aid budget.
A Senate Appropriations
subcommittee will likely take the first step in that direction today when it
takes up a bill to eliminate the Michigan Promise Scholarship and slash the
budget for need-based grant programs.
If the House, the full
Senate and the governor sign off on the plan, its impact would be immediate,
forcing colleges to redo financial aid packages and families to scrape up the
cash or loans.
"It's not going to be
popular and it's not going to be pretty," Matt Marsden, spokesman for
Sen. Majority Leader Mike Bishop, R-Rochester, said of the magnitude of
financial aid cuts that need to be made.
More than 96,000 students
who have graduated since 2007 are expecting Michigan Promise scholarships
ranging from $1,000 to $4,000 this fall. Students earn the grants by passing
a standardized test or successfully completing two years of college.
Uncertainty over whether
the money they were promised will be given is frustrating parents like Donald
Neely of White Lake Township.
"People use that promise
for their plan," said Neely, whose son will start at Alma College
this fall. "Fortunately we are in a position where we are able to make
that up. Other people are not. There are people who are going to be
tremendously hurt by this."
The cuts are necessary
because the state is facing a $1.7 billion deficit for the fiscal year that
begins Oct. 1. As a result, House and Senate leaders called on their
committees to hack their budgets -- $525.8 million in cuts in the House and
up to $1.2 billion in the Senate.
The higher education cuts
will land disproportionately on financial aid because $1.42 billion of Gov.
Jennifer Granholm's proposed $1.71 billion higher education budget goes for
operations of the 15 public universities. Accepting federal stimulus dollars
precludes the state from slashing funding to universities -- each university
would see just a 0.4 percent cut under the Senate subcommittee plan -- so
that leaves financial aid the only area left to cut.
In addition to the elimination
of the popular $140 million Michigan Promise Scholarship program, the Senate
higher education subcommittee bill would reduce need-based grant programs
from about $139 million last year to about $85 million this year. That would
wipe away the $7.3 million work study program, the $2.7 million part-time
independent student grant program and $2.1 million Michigan Education
Opportunity Grant program, according to documents obtained by The Detroit
Other need-based grant
programs would be dramatically cut. The Tuition Grant program, which awards
up to $2,100 to students at private colleges, would be trimmed from $56.7
million to $31.7 million. Funding for the Competitive Scholarship that awards
up to $1,300 per student would by slashed from $35.5 million to $16.3 million
under the proposal.
"This is a huge
budget deficit we are facing, of an unprecedented amount," said Rep.
Joan Bauer, D-Lansing, chairwoman of the House higher education subcommittee.
"In higher education, this means massive cuts to financial aid at a time
when we really should be investing more, not less, in helping kids get a
college degree."
Need-based programs have
been targeted for cuts all year, so the state didn't send out award letters
to recipients in May, as it typically would.
However, the state sent
congratulations letters to 41,666 high school juniors last year alerting them
to their Michigan Promise scholarships.
"It's called the
Promise grant," said Michael Boulus, executive director of Presidents
Council, State Universities, which represents the 15 public universities.
"The letter went out promising students they would receive the funds.
And to pull the money out from them at this late in the game, it's going to
create some real economic challenges for Michigan families."
At Michigan State
University, students
received $50 million in state-sponsored scholarships last year, including
$13.4 million in Promise scholarships and $5 million from the state
Competitive Scholarships.
If the state pulls the
plug on these programs, MSU doesn't have money to replace the loss for all
students, said Val Meyers, associate director of financial aid at MSU.
The University of Michigan,
which has committed to covering the gap between undergraduates' scholarships
and other funding and the cost of tuition, would need to spend $3 million to
replace the loss of Promise scholarships for students in financial need, said
Pamela Fowler, executive financial aid director.
Said Marsden, the
spokesman for Bishop: "Cutting higher education is never really popular
with the public; neither is cuts to State Police, cuts to corrections and ...
layoffs. This is a universal situation. ... But at the end of the day, we
only have so much money to work with."
The state may face public
outcry over pulling the Promise scholarship, but legally it's possible, some
lawmakers say, because the statute allows the state to reduce scholarships to
students if money isn't appropriated to fund the program.
After today's action, the bill
could head to the full Appropriations Committee on Wednesday and then on to
the full Senate shortly thereafter, sources say. The legislation would then
head back to the House.
House Republicans haven't
taken a position on what to cut: merit-based aid vs. need-based. But House
Speaker Andy Dillon, D-Redford
Township, believes
preserving scholarships for the neediest students is paramount.
"When it comes to
cuts to scholarships and higher education, we need to do everything in our
power to protect those who need help the most," Dillon said in a
But Granholm is a champion
of the Promise Scholarship. Her spokeswoman wouldn't speculate on whether
she'd veto a bill that eliminated the program.
No matter the outcome,
financial aid leaders and families hope the decision comes quickly.
"It would be nice to
know sooner rather than later so we can let students know," Fowler said.
(313) 222-2310


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Deer Cave
Deer Cave (Malay: Gua Rusa), located near Miri, Sarawak, Malaysia, is a show cave attraction of Gunung Mulu National Park. It was surveyed in 1961 by G. E. Wilford of the Malaysian Geological Survey, who predicted that Mulu would yield many more caves in the future.[1] The cave, which is also known as Gua Payau or Gua Rusa by the local Penan and Berawan people, is said to have received its name because of the deer that go there to lick salt-bearing rocks[2] and shelter themselves.
Description and survey history[edit]
The cave was surveyed for the first time in 1978, producing measurements of 174 m (571 ft) wide and 122 m (400 ft) high in one section that passed through the mountain for a distance of 1 km (0.62 mi). The next survey increased the acknowledged passage length to 4.1 km (2.5 mi) and connected Lang Cave, another show cave within the park, to the Deer Cave System. This survey, made in 2009 by the Hoffman Institute at Western Kentucky University, revealed the maximum cross-sectional area to be in the large southern passage. This was documented at 169 m wide with a ceiling height of 125 m (410 ft). The northern passage registered the greatest ceiling height at 148 m (486 ft) with a cross-sectional width of 142 m (466 ft). The main entrance of Deer Cave was measured at 146 m (479 ft).[3]
Geologic history[edit]
An explanation of the cave's formation is strongly interconnected with the geological history of the island of Borneo itself. Between 40,000,000 BC and 20,000,000 BC, a 1,500 m (4,900 ft) thick layer of sedimentary rocks known as limestone, composed largely of compressed sea shells, developed in lagoons created by coral reefs. The movement of the Asian and Australian tectonic plates caused the crust to buckle and elevate the land once more, giving birth to the island of Borneo and the Mulu mountains, around 5,000,000 BC. Since then, the landscape was hacked by constant erosion from precipitations and winds. The mountain's surface is composed mostly of limestone, which dissolves when in contact with fresh-water, and thus has been slowly sculpted into a karst. Rainwater also infiltrates the porous sedimentary rocks after going through the soil and progressively dissolves the limestone, widening the pores and cracks and creating caves of impressive dimensions such as the Deer Cave. This natural process, which is still working, will cause the cave to widen even more in the future.
Access and tourism[edit]
Tourism access to the cave (and to the entire park) was opened in 1984. The landscape attracts around 25,000 visitors from countries all over the world every year.[4]
To access Deer Cave, one must first enter the Gunung Mulu National Park, by way of the nearby city of Miri. Malaysian Airlines operates flights of approximately 45 minutes from Miri to Mulu. The park can also be reached by boat from Marudi, but a special booking must be made since no regular boat covers that area.
You can access the Deer Cave by following a 3 km (1.9 mi) plank walk, which passes through various places like a swamp, limestone outcrops, etc. This walk is considered an additional attraction to visitors as it takes them through the rainforest (of about 55,000 ha (140,000 acres))[4] and by an ancient Penan Burial Cave.
The interior of the cave is lit, but flashlights are recommended for personal use in darker areas.[citation needed] Visitor attention may be drawn to a specific formations - unique stromatolites and also to a specific formation which bears a distinct resemblance to the profile of Abraham Lincoln.[citation needed]
To the northeast the cave opens into the so-called Garden of Eden, an approximately 1 km (0.62 mi) wide, circular depression encircled with 150–300 m (490–980 ft) tall limestone walls from three sides and a mountain slope from the fourth. The Garden of Eden is a karst valley or sinkhole with a volume of 150 cubic meters, its bottom is covered with rainforest.[5]
In 2008, Prince Albert II of Monaco visited the Gunung Mulu National Park to launch a new camera system as part of the Bat Observatory, which is located near the entrance of the Deer Cave. Known as the Bat Cam, the surveillance technology allows visitors and scientists to observe approximately 3 million bats[6] (over 30 species) that live inside the Deer Cave without affecting their habitat or habits, providing a valuable tool for the study of cave fauna.[7]
The Deer Cave derives its name from an uncommon species of deer, native to Malaysia, which make their home largely in the immediate area of the cave. Additionally, many other animals such as the rhinoceros hornbill, bearded pig, sun bear, and gibbon are native to the local area.
Deer Cave was known as the largest cave passage in the world until the discovery of Sơn Đoòng cave in Phong Nha-Kẻ Bàng National Park in Vietnam. It is part of the Gunung Mulu National Park, a UNESCO World Heritage Site characterised by amazing caves and karst formations in a mountainous equatorial rainforest setting. The Clearwater cave, with approximately 60 km (37 mi) of known passages, is considered the longest cave system in Southeast Asia. It is recognised for its clear underground stream, popular with tourists. The Wind cave is located on the same trail leading to Clearwater cave, and is known for its blowing wind. It contains a chamber dubbed King's Room, a cavern containing huge columns of stone on both the ceiling and the floor. The Lang cave is the smallest of the caves open to the public. However, its size allows up-close opportunities to see some of the common cave inhabitants such as bats and swiftlets.
- ^ Wilford, G.E. (1964), The Geology of Sarawak and Sabah Caves
- ^ Tsen, 1993
- ^ "The Largest Passage on Earth". Mulu Caves Project. 2009. Retrieved January 21, 2016.
- ^ a b Malaysia at Asean-tourism.com
- ^ "Garden of Eden, Sarawak". Wondermondo.com.
- ^ Caves. Planet Earth (TV mini-series). BBC. 2006.
- ^ Mulu Park Batcam


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What are some possible problems with cash crops?
When cash crop prices fall, farmers do not earn enough money
to produce a variety of goods so that if one fails, the owner or group of people is not sunk...
Why are South Asia's rivers so important?
carry water and minerals to support farming, plains around rivers are fertile and heavily populated.
Monsoons are seasonal_________ that bring _________?
winds/ rain or dry, cool air depending on the season
in the Hindu religion, a social group into which people are born and which they cannot change; each group with assigned jobs.
What are the four levels of the caste system?
preists and the educated; rulers and warriors; farmers, artisans, and merchants; and laborers.
What did Ghandi want for his people and what did he do to refuse?
independece, non- violence, peacful, boycott
Why was there a partition?
Mualims feared that their right s wouldn't be protected in land where Hindus were, so fight a came along so Muslims could become majority.
What is the problem with nuclear weapons in Pakistan and India?
concerns U.S and other countries.Threat of conflict.


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A Linden police officer is at home recuperating today after being shot at point-blank range Friday evening while responding to a call from a suspicious clerk at a check cashing business on Routes 1&9.
The officer, David Manganiello, 52, a 24-year veteran of the force, was shot in the chest. However, his protective vest prevented serious injury.
"He has always been one of our most dedicated and conscientious officers," Linden Police Chief Michael Boyle said. "We can all breathe a sigh of relief...that this officer is alive and well, and that his assailant is in custody."
Authorities this morning identified the suspected in custody as Leonardo Grullon, 34, whose last known address was in Elizabeth. Grullon has been charged with attempted murder of a police officer, armed robbery, aggravated assault, possession of a weapon for unlawful purposes and theft by deception. He is being held on $1.5 million bail.
The shooting took place at about 6 p.m. at Speedy Check-Cashing, a business within the Vantage truck stop on Routes 1&9 South, near Woodlawn Avenue.
Fred Padi, the owner of Speedy Check-Cashing, said this morning that Grullon had twice previously cashed stolen checks using fake identification, prompting Padi to post his photograph on the wall of his store.
Padi said that when Grullon walked to cash a $2,000 state unemployment check Friday evening, he immediately called police.
"Two times before he got me," Padi said in an interview . "I have his photo pasted on the wall and we called the cops on the phone and told them what's going on, that this is guy you've been investigating."
Manganiello, working a single-car patrol, arrived at the check cashing store shortly after Padi's call, Linden police Lt. Raymond Tyra said. He found several people in the tight foyer of the business, with the clerk behind a glass partition. While the officer spoke with the clerk, Tyra said one, of the men in the foyer attempted to leave.
He said Manganiello put his hand out, grabbed the other man's arm, and told him to stay, when he was pushed back.
"The officer tried to grab the suspect, when the suspect suddenly pulled out a revolver-type weapon. and fired," he said. "At that range, it's like being hit with a sledgehammer."
At least one, and possibly two or more shots, hit him in the vest and knocked him down. As he slumped against a wall, Manganiello managed to radio for help, and gave a description of the suspect, Tyra said.
Padi said he heard the gunman fire two shots, the second of which lodged in his ATM machine.
"It put a nice hole in the ATM machine," Padi said. "If this guy wasn't wearing his vest I'm sure he would've been dead."
As officers quickly converged on the scene, they chased down the suspect and later recovered a handgun, authorities said. Police today are looking for a woman who they say drove away from the scene. They are not sure what role, if any, she played in the shooting.


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Halloween is over, and the spookiest time of the year has passed.
But for LSU running back Jeremy Hill, memories of something that happened over a year ago—not just last week—continue to haunt him and give him the chills.
According to ESPN's College GameDay, Hill said that he is still "haunted" by the thought of last year's loss to Alabama, which the Crimson Tide won in Tiger Stadium after a late touchdown pass from AJ McCarron to T.J. Yeldon:
"It haunts me all the time," LSU RB Jeremy Hill said of last year's 21-17 loss to the Crimson Tide.— College GameDay (@CollegeGameDay) November 6, 2013
LSU took a three-point lead, 17-14, at the start of the fourth quarter and held it for the next 10-plus minutes. The Tigers defense played a near-perfect quarter of football, and the offense converted a number of timely third downs.
But Drew Alleman missed a 45-yard field goal with 1:34 on the clock, giving McCarron and the offense one more chance to tie or win the game.
Who Will Win on Saturday?
The then-junior quarterback drove his team 72 yards in five short plays, capping off the comeback with a 28-yard screen pass to Yeldon for the game-winning score.
Even notoriously dour Nick Saban was left smiling after the performance. "I'm really, really pleased with that last drive," he said, according to the Associated Press. "That's something I'll never forget."
Hill can't forget it either, and he hopes to use that memory as fuel in Tuscaloosa on Saturday. He was one of the many Tigers who played well in the loss, racking up 107 yards and a touchdown on 29 carries against the stingy Alabama defense.
He'll be counted on to repeat that performance on Saturday, especially if the trend of high-scoring winners in GameDay games continues at Bryant-Denny Stadium:
This season, the winning team at all 10 @CollegeGameDay sites has scored 38+ points. It's #LSUvsBAMA Saturday.— ESPN Stats & Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) November 6, 2013
Alabama-LSU kicks of at 8:00 p.m. ET and will be broadcast on CBS.


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With the winding up of the Ottawa Public Library Foundation, the net assets of the Foundation are being transferred to the Community Foundation of Ottawa to significantly expand the existing Ottawa Public Library Endowment Fund at the Community Foundation of Ottawa.
This Fund was established in 2001 by the Ottawa Public Library. The Fund is invested and managed for the Library by the Community Foundation of Ottawa. Interest earned on the fund is used to help meet the Library's strategic objectives as determined by the library board. The ever present need for collections, particularly e-resources, new technology, materials for adult, family and digital literacies, life-long learning, new and renewed places and spaces, as well as programming, all place new and increasing demands on the Ottawa Public Library budget. The OPL Endowment Fund helps support the Library's vital programs and services and ensure they remain free and accessible to our residents.
The OPL Endowment Fund is a Featured Fund of the Community Foundation of Ottawa. With the transfer of assets from the Ottawa Public Library Foundation in 2013, the value of the fund will be significantly expanded. Each year the Community Foundation of Ottawa, consistent with the granting policies approved by its Board of Governors, sends the library board a cheque representing earnings on the OPL Endowment Fund from the previous year.
The Community Foundation of Ottawa is a public, non-profit organization created by and for the people of Ottawa which last year celebrated its 25th year in operation. The Community Foundation's Charitable Registration number is 11922 7981 RR 0001. A tax receipt is issued for each donation. Gifts to the Community Foundation of Ottawa are eligible for a tax credit. Your gift can help reduce your taxes.
Since 1987, the Community Foundation of Ottawa has been enabling generous citizens to enhance the quality of life in their community and to achieve their own charitable objectives through permanent, well-managed endowments.
The Community Foundation's role is threefold:
The Ottawa Public Library's core funding comes from municipal taxes and supports collections, facilities, equipment, technology as well as programs and services. The Provincial of Ontario also provides a small operating grant to all Ontario public libraries including the Ottawa Public Library.
The Ottawa Public Library Board has identified and confirmed their priorities in the Library's Strategic Plan 2012-2015. The priorities include children and teen programs, services and collections, meeting targeted community needs of our aging and diverse citizens and those of marginalized populations, supporting 21st century literacies, and expanding e-books, e-services and e-materials, creating places and spaces that are vital, welcoming community hubs and providing efficient, innovative service through the use of technology and continuous improvement.
Your gift to the Ottawa Public Library Endowment Fund through the Ottawa Community Foundation will help to sustain the library's programs and services which are offered to all Ottawans.
Donations to the OPL Endowment Fund may be made in several ways:
1. By cheque:
Please make cheques payable to the Community Foundation of Ottawa, specifying the Ottawa Public Library Endowment Fund in the memo field.
Send your cheque to:
Community Foundation of Ottawa
#301 – 75 Albert Street
Ottawa, Ontario K1P 5E7
Attn: Barry Lam, Associate, Development and Donor Services
Community Foundation of Ottawa
2. Online:
3. Publicly-listed securities:
Through the Community Foundation of Ottawa, the OPL Endowment Fund can also accept gifts of publicly-listed securities. Donating appreciated securities to the fund allows you to eliminate capital gains tax and receive an immediate tax receipt for the market value of the securities. To donate securities, please complete this form describing the securities you wish to donate.
4. Deferred Gifts:
Bequests to the OPL Endowment Fund can be in the form of a specific amount or the residue of an estate. The Community Foundation of Ottawa can provide suggested wording for a will which should be reviewed with a professional advisor. A gift of this kind can result in a substantial reduction in federal gift and estate taxes.
Life Insurance
Through the Community Foundation, the OPL Endowment Fund may be designated as the beneficiary of a life insurance policy. A tax receipt will be issued upon receipt of the proceeds of the policy at the time of death.
The Foundation may also be assigned ownership of a life insurance policy during a donor's lifetime. A tax receipt will be issued for the cash surrender value of a policy at the time of donation. The payment of annual premiums is also a gift that generates an official receipt for income tax purposes.
For information about making a donation or technical questions regarding donations by mail or the Community Foundation of Ottawa's online system, please contact the Community Foundation of Ottawa @613-236-1616 x306 attention Barry Lam, Associate, Development and Donor Services, or email the Community Foundation of Ottawa at [email protected]
This content is also available in: French
Copyright © 2014 - [email protected]


text:
Cherry Lane Studio Theatre
38 Commerce Street
(Off 7th Avenue, 1 block south of Bleecker)
New York NY 10014
View on map
Add to My Event List
Both With Aaron's Arms Around Me and The Mire deal with the eternal themes of intolerance and bigotry from emigres' perspective.With Aaron's Arms around Me is the story of 2 young women (1 a Jamaican émigré & the other a Russian Jew) struggling with interracial relationships. Love is a universal theater – it has no boundaries & adheres to no creed or color. The Mire tells the story of an eccentric poetic Russian Jewish Emigree who reels in an Italian-American Lieutenant, only just back from the haunting war in Iraq. She reels men in, gets under their skin, and never relinquishes the debt!
Tosh Marks, Allan Mirchin*, Naomi McDougall Jones, Carolyn Seiff* and Latonia Phipps* *Appearing courtesy of Actors' Equity Association
Author: Sophia RommaDirector: Charles Weldon (With Aaron's Arms Around Me); Yuri Joffe (The Mire)Producer: The Negro Ensemble CompanyPress Agent: Jonathan Slaff
2 hours, including one 10 minute intermission
See this week's prices
May be inappropriate for 15 and under.Children under the age of 4 are not permitted in the theatre.
Monday: ClosedTuesday: 3pm - 7pm Wednesday & Thursday: 4pm - 8pm Friday: 4pm - 8pm Saturday: Noon - 8pm Sunday: 1pm - 3pm No Advance Sales 1 hour prior to performance!
None available.


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Thanks you so much for bringing us back to a different era. Every detail was perfection, to the James Dean garbage pail in the bathroom to the root beer floats, we will definitely be back.
Philadelphia, PA
Great fun! Wonderful accommodations! Love reminiscing about the carefree 50s. Thanks for a great breakfast! Only wish I was staying longer.
Rockleigh, NJ
Thank you once again for making our weekend one of the best & relaxing as usual, see you next month.
Trevose, PA
What a blast back to the past. We had an awesome time. Your hospitality was the best.
Pennsawken, NJ
This was one of the best experiences. Thanks for that extra personal touch.
New York, NY
Your place is awesome and your hospitality outstanding.
Arlington, Va.
Fun, luxurious and peaceful!
Mount Laurel, NJ
Thank you for your genuine hospitality! We had a wonderful time and loved everything
food, décor and jacuzzi!
Nutley, NJ
We would like to say a special thank you for your kindness & hospitality from the time we walked in the door, we got that homely and welcome feeling. Everything about your B&B was spectacular, the décor, the breakfast diner, the room and especially the bed. Thank you for the wine, chocolate covered strawberries and roses, it was a memory filled honeymoon. And thanks for deviating from the traditional B&B, we appreciate milk shakes and soft pretzels more than tea.
Willow Grove, PA
Thank you for a fabulous trip back in time for my 60th birthday. The bed feels like Im sleeping on a cloud and the bathrobes so comfy. There was always a breeze on the porch, so enjoyed sitting in the rockers watching time go by
till 4 pm and those delicious root beer floats, milk shakes and pretzels listening to the jukebox! We always ended the evenings in the hot tub under the stars! The old movies & TV Shows such fun!
Bridgewater, NJ
Thanks for the memories! We loved this place. Youre both gracious hosts and were a pleasure to visit with.
Montreal, Canada
Thanks so much for making our vacation to Wildwood one that we wont forget. From the fabulous breakfasts and shakes to all the great recommendation, everything was truly top notch. The room was delight as was the great porch with the cool breeze it always provided.
Malvern, PA
This was one of the most memorable and best stays we could have ever asked for. The two seater bike was fantastic. There were so many great things about this place that we cant even list them all. You will definitely be seeing us again and guarantee we will be sharing this secret with others.
Woodstown, NJ
We loved everything about your B&B. For how beautiful, unique and romantic the décor, it is only surpassed by your hospitality, thoughtfulness and great sense of humor. We will highly recommend Summer Nites to all our friends.
Wayne, Pa
What you have here is one of a kind! Keep up the good work, we look forward to seeing you soon.
Kennett Square, Pa
We had a wonderful visit here at Summer Nites Even though summer is almost over, there is so much to do here, our visit was full. We enjoyed playing pool, listening to the jukebox, great snacks and breakfast. Sitting on the porch and soaking in the hot tub and watching the stars late at night. Summer Nites is a great find and we will tell others
about it.
Bensalem, Pa
We had an absolutely fabulous experience here. We thoroughly enjoyed our stay here. You have far exceeded our expectations and will definitely return. Your B&B is a very unique experience. Thank you for making us feel comfortable and welcomed.
Cherry Hill, NJ
We were very displeased. The room was too nice, the bed was too comfortable. The owners were too nice. We will make sure to tell all of our friends and family of the truly awful stay we had here and of course we will also have to return again too make sure nothing has changed.. Thank you for an extremely wonderful stay!!
Bronx, NY
This has been our first experience with a B&B. If we stay at another they would have a tough act to follow. Not only is this a beautiful and exceptionally clean home to stay in, but the hospitality was above and beyond.
Wayne, Pa
Thank you so much for wonderful weekend. Every detail was perfect from the food to the bed to the amazing jacuzzi!!
Williamstown, NJ
We thoroughly enjoyed staying at Summer Nites. Beautiful, clean, creative and sophisticated. Definitely a 10.
Old Forge, Pa
Thank you for the wonderful experience of our first B&B on our anniversary. Your hospitality was outstanding. The memory of this day will be with us for the rest of our lives. Your home will be at the top of our list the next time we visit the area.
This room was great & the bed was heaven!! It was like sleeping on a cloud. It was our first anniversary and we had a blast here. Elvis really does live!!!
Lakewood, NJ
This room is amazing (Elvis Suite) The décor the bed the shower what can we say! Spectacular!!.
Linden, NJ
This is the best place weve ever stayed at. As an Elvis fan I was in heaven. It just doesnt get any better than this. As Elvis would have said, Thank you, thankyouverymuch
Helmetta, NJ
Your hospitality and wamr smile made us feel welcomed. Your home is perfect, the attention to detail shows how much you care. We found a wonderful home away from home to come back to. You made us feel special.
Teaneck, NJ
What a wonderful place! How romantic for us to renew our wedding vows on your porch. This place now holds wonderful memories for us and we will be back every anniversary.
Sewell, NJ