text:
From a Turkish broadcasting site. This could be big, in the runup to the statehood initiative. The item says that Erdogan may go to Gaza after addressing Tahrir, but that part of the trip has not been confirmed. This could be international theater on a grand scale. And a call for Palestinian freedom, heard round the world. Even National Public Radio is on the Israel-Turkey divorce.
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189 Responses
Richard WittySeptember 6, 2011, 8:42 pm
A very big divide.
The NPR commentator presented the Israeli perspective as reasonable. His words indicated that Turkey switched its demands at the last minute.
If the UN position is that the blockade is legal, and the NATO position is that the blockade is legal, where does that put Turkey?
ShingoSeptember 6, 2011, 8:59 pm
If the UN position is that the blockade is legal, and the NATO position is that the blockade is legal, where does that put Turkey?
If the UN position is that the settlements and occupation is illegal, and the Israel position is that settlements and occupation is legal, where does that put Israel?
If the UN position is that Israel commited war crimes in Gaza , and the Israel position is that they didn't, where does that put Israel?
peterszSeptember 6, 2011, 9:03 pm
The position of the UN is not that the blockade is legal, its only the opinion of the people who wrote the report who admit by their own terms of reference they are not making any legal judgements nor are they qualified to do so. Only a body like the International Court of Justice can do that. NATO has made no judgement or comment on it at all and it certainly is not going to enforce any blockade by a non NATO member.
annieSeptember 6, 2011, 10:41 pm
The NPR commentator presented the Israeli perspective as reasonable. His words indicated that Turkey switched its demands at the last minute.
the hasbara line is that this was spur of the moment, it wasn't. turkey has had this 5 pt plan for a year. they were waiting and negotiating for an apology very patiently. rumor has it that israel leaked the report from the foreign ministries office (probably to get it out front of the UN vote, to discredit turkey's support for palestine's bid). so, as soon as the report was out/leaked turkey went forward with their plan.
no switchero according to turkish sources they all knew what was on the table. nice spin tho, that's pretty much the propaganda pushback line.
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 3:46 pm
i am so sick of anything you guys don't like being some hasbara line, or hasbara argument. have you ever thought that maybe when Israel is involved another group may be in the wrong? If not that is fine I get it… but at least let people make an argument w/ out throwing out the token hasbara nonsense.
DonaldSeptember 6, 2011, 10:54 pm
"where does that put Turkey?"
On the side of people who think that collective punishment is a crime. The reasoning in the report is bizarre anyway–they made a distinction between the sea blockade and the land blockade. They were trying to argue that in a narrow sense the sea blockade didn't cause the Gazans to suffer because not that much in the way of goods enters Gaza by sea. Of course the flotilla was meant to protest the blockade as a whole. And then you would come along and say that Israel and Egypt have the right to close their own borders, and we're right back to treating the Gazans as caged animals.
I know, though, Richard, you are always going to side with people who think that it's okay to use tactics against Palestinians that would upset you greatly if used against Israeli Jews. I mean, BDS is nowhere near as bad and that upsets you more.
Richard WittySeptember 7, 2011, 5:46 am
They advocate for principle, and they advocate for imperial power at the same time.
They are very concerned for realpolitik and for shoring up their mass emotional support.
For you to say that a state cannot determine its own transit regulations, is abusive.
Gaza has three borders – Egypt ground crossing, Israel ground crossing, sea.
The only crossing point that could legally be contestable is the sea, and so long as Hamas retains a state of war, then Israel has some justification for a sea blockade.
NOONE here is advocating for what Meshal offered to Charlie Rose in 2008, which is international control of a Gaza port. It would then get built, but managed in accordance with international law, rather than in violation of international law of the sea.
Your analysis is weak when it is only partisan, Donald.
The prospect of military confrontation on the seas between Turkey and Israel is a disaster. They must be reasoning that Europe is in decline, that China is far, that Iran is in decline, and that they are the new power in the middle east (not western anymore, not Mediterranean).
LeaNderSeptember 7, 2011, 7:05 am
They advocate for principle, and they advocate for imperial power at the same time.
I am assuming "they" means the authors of the report. But be so kind and enlighten me in what way they advocate for "imperial power", whose imperial power, and what your definition of imperial power is.
Wikipedia: "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination."
For you to say that a state cannot determine its own transit regulations, is abusive.
I would assume that a state can only determine it's own transit regulations in accordance with international law. The question is can it determine the transit regulation of others?
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 7:16 am
For you to say that a state cannot determine its own transit regulations, is abusive.
Yet, when Israel imposes those very limitations on Palestinians, you call it self governance.
The only crossing point that could legally be contestable is the sea, and so long as Hamas retains a state of war, then Israel has some justification for a sea blockade.
Bullshit. Hamas stuck to a ceasefire in 2008 and Israel broke it and undermined it every step of the way.
It would then get built, but managed in accordance with international law, rather than in violation of international law of the sea.
In which case, why not send UN peacekeepers to the occupied territories to maintain order and stop the building of settlements?
Your analysis is weak when it is only partisan, Donald.
Your analysis is weak all the time Witty, becasue it is nothing but partisan. In fact, it is more than weak, is is pathetic.
The prospect of military confrontation on the seas between Turkey and Israel is a disaster.
Yes, it would be wouldn't it, though unlike Cast Lead, it would be a disaster for Israel and that is what's got you, Jonah, DBG,LLI, eee and David in such a panick. You sadists are perfectly sanguine about wars when Israel is pitted against Palestinians, but when the prospect of a war against a miltarized state looms on the horizon, you extremists suddenly discover an appreciation for the implication of war.
peterszSeptember 7, 2011, 10:14 am
There's has actually been a sea blockade of Gaza since 1967. Gaza is a port on the eastern Mediterranean. For thousands of years the port has been open and traded with ports across the Mediterranean until 1967. That means the closure of the port by Israel is for political reasons not security reasons. In other words its part of the occupation to keep Gazans completely dependent on Israel.
migSeptember 7, 2011, 10:20 am
Shingo :
"In which case, why not send UN peacekeepers to the occupied territories to maintain order and stop the building of settlements?"
Because Israel refuses this. Many times has been made proposals to this direction, and a result has been always the same. Israel says no.
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 7:43 pm
Exactly Mig,
When Israel says no it's becasue they are a soverereign state and such a measure would violate their a soverereignty.
When any other state or the Palestinians say no, it proves they are agressive and at war with Israel.
DonaldSeptember 7, 2011, 7:49 pm
"The only crossing point that could legally be contestable is the sea, and so long as Hamas retains a state of war, then Israel has some justification for a sea blockade."
Beautiful Richard. Exactly what I expected from you. So the Gazans get to be put in a cage and Israel has every right to do so, collective punishment or not. And you wonder why people think you're a racist.
pabelmontSeptember 7, 2011, 9:09 am
The NPR commentator, ROBERT SIEGEL, did NOT break the NYT's speak-no-evil rule.
He did not use the word "occupation", did not refer to allegations of "war crimes" asserted against Israel, did not refer to "international law".
Worse, SIEGEL said: "The [UN] panel also acknowledged the legality of Israel's blockade of Gaza, so Turkey declared the report of that panel null and void", making the legality-question so obvious it only needed to be acknowledged, never mind the qualifications of the UN panel to do such a gratuitous act of acknowledgement, and making Turkey's rejection of the "acknowledgement" appear belligerent, unjustified, etc.
SIEGEL made the whole conflict (especially as to lifting the siege of Gaza) appear to be a bi-national (Israel/Turkey) political conflict coming out of the blue, no background, no legal basis, etc.
That's how NYT/NPR does "news". No background, no legal analysis. at least, not news about Israel. We'll see if events conspire to make NYT/NPR discuss background, even if only quoting Turkish speeches. And September 20 beckons. More speeches may be expected, and some may be reported, leading to BACKGROUND.
HaythamSeptember 7, 2011, 2:08 pm
I want to address this to you because along with GuiltyFeat, you had the most to do with this.
I am not only out of here (the comments board) but I will no longer read the blog.
If every time I am honest (and not anti-Semitic) and completely rain on your liberal-Zionist parade I am going to get basically shitted on and accused of anti-Semitim, what fun is this?
GuiltyFeat called me an anti-Semitic conspiracy nut job for discussing Victor Ostrovsky's (a former Mossad agent) views.
You, Witty insinuated that I was less than a full Israeli citizen. You also accused me of dehumanizing you, though you didn't say how.
Phil asked me to write a blog post about Palestinian identity or the statehood initiative or whatever I chose but let's be honest. This is not a fairly moderated, open forum. I thought it was, or I wouldn't have financially contributed here. I did notice that none of those who unfairly called me names contributed financially here. And that really sucks, guys.
Phil, you can consider this my response, and I mean no disrespect to you, personally:
I will not be writing for a website that has a comments section where people do not get moderated EVER for falsely and libelously calling someone an anti-Semite but DO get moderated for criticizing Zionism.
In fact, such a website is not worth reading, in my humble opinion.
I guess I'll stick with al-Jazeera or some other such website. I like Greenwald's blog.
Thanks to annie, J. North, Danaa, tree, Taxi, Mooser, Citizen, American, Avi, Shingo, seafoid, Rania, Inaana, and I'm sorry if I forgot anyone.
My anti-Semitic ass is out of here.
ShmuelSeptember 7, 2011, 2:28 pm
Allow me to suggest a behind-the-scenes scenario. In the interest of the freest exchange of ideas possible, the moderators try to go easy on the censor button. In so doing, they sometimes let through things they probably should not have (oversight, differences of opinion or judgement between mods, etc.). Once something objectionable has gone through, not only can it not be put back, but a certain amount of slack has to be allowed for responding and back-and-forthing. This can get unpleasant.
Bottom line: I appreciate your comments and would love to see something by you "above the line". There are too few Palestinian voices here – especially '48 Palestinians. It would be a great shame to lose you.
HaythamSeptember 7, 2011, 3:09 pm
Shmuel, annie. J. North, others:
It's not vindictive. I'm not "punishing" anyone. And I'm not "giving in" to the Israel-firsters. [As if withholding my contributions would be punishment! Yes, I'm very arrogant, but I am still capable of reason.]
What no one seems to understand is that I want Israel, as country (not as an ideology necessarily) to succeed! My family is there. I would love to go visit them again. I haven't' been back since 2005, which seems like forever to me.
But I won't go back until I know that my wife and children will not be abused at the airport. I would recount what happened last time but come on, people have complained about the length of my posts. Maybe in my "over-zealousness" to contribute to MW I have posted too much, and too many words.
annie, you upset me because you plead with me and you seem to take it so personally. There's nothing you can do about this. It's not your doing. I don't feel like explaining to my wife and 2.5 year old son that I'm crying because of some internet shit. I don't want to have that conversation.
There is no protection for me. I'm too sensitive and I overcompensate with egotistical flourish. The truth is simple. LLI, GF, eee and the rest hurt my feelings. It's basic.
I can stand up for myself in an intellectual debate but the "I'm sad to disscover that you're an anti-Semite" or "Have you stopped beating your wife?" level internet discourse I can't deal with.
I have informed Phil about my feelings. I think it's probably just a matter of me being too easily rattled (i.e., feelings hurt) to continue here.
My frenzied posting of the last couple of days has been my reaction in an effort to try to keep up in the face of the scurrilous attacks on me.
Like I said, it's not personal in the sense that you couldn't have "helped" me. I just can't deal with it, honestly.
GF today was able to push me over the edge with his/her accusations. So over the edge of despair I go on this issue, and here I am.
If I was "strong" enough to withstand these types of accusations/attacks, I would be practicing law in support of the Palestinians like I intended. I had an internationally known law school prof mentor who agreed to take me under his wing but I feared that I couldn't stand the heat of this issue. I was right.
annieSeptember 7, 2011, 3:19 pm
haytham, i don't think any of your posts are too long! ever. you're one of the people that makes this blog shine for me. please tell us what happened to you at the airport! please. some reality to change the pallet. plus, i know just what you mean. sometimes i go crazy when i get too wrapped up in the discussions but then if i wasn't passionate about it i wouldn't be here.
seafoidSeptember 7, 2011, 4:03 pm
Khalaas ya'ni.
Ma yin fa'sh khaalis as they say in Cairo.
Get your ass back here and let's crush
these robots together.
You are too good to fade away. Good people are so rare on the net.
And the dawn is near.
The conflict makes me emotional too on occasion but I couldn't care less what the bots say. We're much bigger than that. We are on the side of a shared humanity.
And your name reminds me of a story I learnt at BZU near Al quds about a very generous character called Haytham al Thawee.
treeSeptember 7, 2011, 4:11 pm
I've really appreciated all your comments here, and found your commentary intellectually stimulating. I would hate to see your voice here silenced, even if it is a self-imposed silence. And I agree with Shmuel that it would be a service to us all, including (despite themselves) the "liberal" and not so liberal Zionists here, if you would consider posting something "above the line".
I suspect that GF dismissed you as "anti-semitic" purely because she can't deal with your arguments and so falls back on the easy "out" of not having to listen to your reasoned argumentation by labeling you "herem", so to speak. Its her problem, not yours, that caused her outburst, and more of a compliment (albeit very, very backhanded) of your argumentation abilities, and an underhanded acknowledgement of her own weak ones.
I totally understand you getting emotionally wrapped up, and drained by the back and forth, but I would hope that you could just take a short break from all this for a short amount of time, if needed, to refresh and get your feelings on a more even keel. Please don't leave. You will be missed.
HaythamSeptember 7, 2011, 6:07 pm
Please don't leave. You will be missed.
Come on. You guys were doing more than fine before I showed up. As GF pointed out, I just argue too aggressively and it causes unnecessary conflict.
I don't feel like it anymore anyway. It's fun to debate and even angrily argue sometimes but not when the "losers" can't keep up and just go to their prepared ad hominem attacks. I'm not rubber, I'm glue.
treeSeptember 7, 2011, 6:43 pm
As GF pointed out, I just argue too aggressively and it causes unnecessary conflict.
Please. Never take GF's take on things as "gospel", so to speak.
If you feel better leaving then go with what feels good for you, but please consider hanging around or popping in on occasion, and definitely consider the "above the line" post.
Chaos4700September 7, 2011, 7:13 pm
You DO NOT argue too aggressively, Haytham.
Screw GF. He's a phony immigrant from Great Britain who went to Israel because white privilege back home is waning. Witty is a white suburban couch potato neoliberal who pretends he was against segregation and American/Israeli hegemony after he was for it.
We desperately need you. THE WORST THING that these Zionists clods do is paint Arabs and Muslims and Palestinians with their racist brush, and more than anything, we need people like you to prove to impressionable American and European Jews what a total crock of shit they're peddling.
You're a hell of a lot more valuable than I am here, and I'm sticking around. ;) Plus compared to me, you're hardly aggressive at all, really.
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 8:36 pm
Seriusly Haytham
I would be truly saddened to see you leave. Your contributions are much to valuable as is your insight.
Please reconsider. Take time out if you need to, but don't leave for good.
RobertBSeptember 8, 2011, 11:59 am
"But I won't go back until I know that my wife and children will not be abused at the airport. I would recount what happened last time but come on, people have complained about the length of my posts."
Haytham… The abuse that your wife & children received at the airport from the Israelis is purely a planned & calculated program/agenda.
Their goals & objectives are to harass / hassle/humiliate Arab Israelis/Palestinians so that the experience will leave a bitter taste in their mouths/brains…with the end results of NOT return / visit back again in the near future or not come back at all. This is their zionist's agenda…its their goal(s).
You & your family should go back & visit on a regular basis if you can. Your family & your land need to see you.
You should write about what happened to you & your family each time at the Tel Aviv airport…I am sure that its painful/humiliating, but the world needs to see/read your truthful narratives on Israel's racism.
Haytham… I hope this will help convince you of the familiar ways/methods regarding MW resident zionists bloggers & other forums agendas/objectives. Silence the TRUTH:
If the person is non-Jewish and exposing Israel's hasbara/racism, they cry, "You're anti-semetic" which is nothing more than a smokescreen to hide their intentions/actions.
Then, they ignore the charges, hoping the information will not be given widespread distribution.
If the information starts reaching too many people, they ridicule the information and the person or persons giving the information.
If that doesn't work, their next step is character assassination. If the writer or speaker/blogger hasn't been involved in sufficient scandal, they are handy at fabricating scandal/labels against the person or persons.
But, almost NEVER do they try to prove the information wrong.
RobertBSeptember 7, 2011, 4:00 pm
Haytham… It would be a huge mistake if you leave this blog site. You would only be giving in to the hasbara's agents wishes…!
The truth regarding Israel's policy/treatment of the Palestinians pre-post 1948 must be exposed to the readers of this blog. Your input, time & efforts are needed to continue with what you have been doing.
You must NOT fulfill Israel's hasbara agent's wishes.
Haytham…the Palestinians & many others need your input/truth… you need to continue on here!
Do not turn your back on this matter… develop a thicker skin & be persistent!
Exposing Israel (MUST SEE!)
RaniaSeptember 7, 2011, 5:21 pm
From one Palestinian in America to another, do you think there is anything, ANYTHING, in this world that you could possibly do or say to prove conclusively to anyone that you are not anti-Semitic? Do you think that if you converted to Judaism, joined the IDF, and then moved to a settlement in the West Bank, people would believe you are not anti-Semitic? Or do you think that even then you would be accused of being a sleeper agent attempting to destroy the state of Israel from within? It took me a very long time to accept it, but I know that no matter what I do or say, because of my name and my skin and where I am from, I will always be suspected of being secretly anti-Semitic and attacked as such as soon as I say or insinuate anything that is even remotely critical of Israel, never mind that my family is suffering in Gaza. People also assume that I am anti-Semitic even when I have said nothing about Israel at all. This is part of the continuing crime against us and our people, and it is aimed at silencing our voices and our narrative. It goes beyond getting us off websites and blogs; it goes straight to the destruction of our culture, our history, our story, and our ethnicity as a whole. It is the story of genocide and ethnic cleansing, and we are not immune to it because we are in the U.S. In fact, I think the Palestinian voice is suppressed here just as much as it is anywhere else, if not more. If we are attacked as being anti-Semitic, the Palestinian voice loses all meaning and value, and becomes the crazed grumbling of an inhuman racist following in the footsteps of Hitler. Any anger that we feel about our own dispossession and the continuing genocide of our people is irrational and borne of racist hatred. From the perspective of those who would slander us as anti-Semitic, our anger is not righteous, and it never can be because we are not victims; we are the progeny of European anti-Semitism. This is the reason why when well-meaning friends ask me about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I only point them towards articles and books and websites written by Jewish people. The Palestinian voice has been left bereft of any power. That is why when you write your highly logical and persuasive arguments, it is only your anger that is heard, and to be an angry Arab is a very dangerous thing. I have been in the United States for thirty years, and still I have to prove how American I am on a daily basis. If I lose my temper about something, people look at me like I am about to strap a bomb to my chest and head to the airport. If I criticize the Obama administration, I am not a liberal or an American; I am a crazy person who secretly hates America. Like you, I was in law school on 9/11, and I was forced to spend my last year in school convincing everyone that I was just as upset as they, the "true" Americans, were. I don't believe in jingoism, flag-waving, or war, so you can imagine how difficult this has been. Recently, when Mubarak was deposed, I expressed elation for the Egyptian people, the whole of the Middle East, and especially Palestine. I was immediately accused of secretly hating America by my closest friends. I do not know if there is anything we can do to change this, but I do know that the Palestinian voice is worth hearing, and that speaking is liberating. I think by purposefully and systematically stripping our voice of power, those who slander and libel us to further their aims of ethnically cleansing our homeland have made our voice even more powerful and more dangerous to their cause. Speaking truth to power gives life to our culture and our heritage. Let the accusations of anti-Semitism fly; they only signal that you have hit on some truth that makes you powerful.
HaythamSeptember 7, 2011, 6:18 pm
From one Palestinian in America to another, do you think there is anything, ANYTHING, in this world that you could possibly do or say to prove conclusively to anyone that you are not anti-Semitic?
That's the problem.
Like you, I was in law school on 9/11, and I was forced to spend my last year in school convincing everyone that I was just as upset as they, the "true" Americans, were.
I was single at the beginning of law school, August 2001, having broken up with my long distance (Lebanese) girlfriend in anticipation of not having time to see her (long distance = Columbus to Cleveland, not Ohio to Lebanon). The week after 9/11 I was on a first "date" with a girl who had been my friend for a couple of months (both of us had expressed interest in each other, so we decided to give it a shot).
I already really liked this girl, before our date. After talking about the normal stuff for a little while we started talking about 9/11, just because it was on our minds, it was so recent. She asked me if I would shoot bin Laden in the head if he was in front me. Out of the blue and without any context. Why? Things went downhill from there.
I don't really know what to say about any of this anymore. I just know I don't want to be here anymore but I don't want to go without answering (almost) everyone that addresses me.
treeSeptember 7, 2011, 6:50 pm
Beautiful truthful searing statement! I was going to highlight a portion to commend you on it and then realized that I'd have to highlight every sentence of it. I hope that Phil and Adam will consider having you make an "above the line" post. This comment of yours is a great start towards that. Phil? Adam?
RaniaSeptember 8, 2011, 1:25 am
Thank you, tree. Your comment really means so much. I don't know about getting homework from Phil and Adam, though. With my track record, I'd finish it the day after the occupation ends, Israel becomes a democratic country for all of its inhabitants, and eee, longliveisrael, Richard Witty and I move into a house and spend all of our days holding hands and singing "We Are the World" together under an olive tree. ;)
Henry NorrSeptember 8, 2011, 2:15 am
Rania and Haytham: Do you know of a short Brecht play called "The Exception and the Rule"? It tells of a Chinese merchant and a coolie he exploits and beats. When they're lost in the desert, the coolie approaches his master to offer him a drink of water, but the merchant kills him, on the mistaken assumption that the coolie was coming to kill _him_. The merchant is tried for murder but acquitted, because the judge rules that he had every right to fear that the coolie was out to get him in retaliation his mistreatment, so the murder was self-defense even though there was no actual threat.
Point of all this? Americans and especially Jews, whatever their politics, can't quite believe that a Palestinian isn't anti-semitic because on some level we all know you have every right to be.
CitizenSeptember 8, 2011, 3:49 am
Rania & Haytham, please do not leave this site. The perspective you two provide is nearly absent in the USA I have lived in as an average American for going on 70 years. The hasbarabots here are a dime a dozen everywhere.
CigarGodSeptember 8, 2011, 8:50 am
Thanks for that. Great insight.
That play should be resurrected and played at that theater that the IDF keeps raiding.
CigarGodSeptember 8, 2011, 9:03 am
I think you need to get some new "friends"…one's suspecting you are hiding your true self are not really friends. Reading your words makes it apparent that they don't hear your words. Your soul is on display.
"The Palestinian voice has been left bereft of any power."
Not with me, it hasn't. Hearing your words is like discovering a spring of pure water that comes straight out of the side of a rocky out-cropping in a high Aspen covered hillside.
Reading you and Haytham is like when I take a hike and I am looking down at all the common brown and grey stones along the way and then all of a sudden a shine, a warm glow catches my eye and I bend down and pick up a gold nugget.
SumudSeptember 8, 2011, 9:31 am
CigarGod ~ lovely comment to Rania & Haytham, and I concur.
I know your handle from HP where I used to comment under another name*. I think you just gave them cigars :-)
Glad you're here. I haven't read it yet but since you mention hiking I thought I'd direct you to this book:
Palestinian Walks: Forays into a Vanishing Landscape
*until LG and StC were exposed as running a campaign on another site instructing people how to have anti-zionist HP'ers booted, and HP management refused to take action over it.
CitizenSeptember 8, 2011, 9:43 am
I noted what Rania said about her friends too, and I thought the same thing. She needs some new friends, real friends.
CigarGodSeptember 8, 2011, 10:22 am
Hey Samud,
Thanks for the book link. I just ordered it with amazon's one click feature. Coincidentally, I have been wishing for a good walk from the Palestinian perspective.
Yes, HP…and The Brothers.
What an ambition…to have everyone look upon them both with pity and admiration…while ignoring the complete absence of honest reasoning ability.
Yes, I am still enthralled with the magical properties of cigars. The aroma and once in awhile…the rapture…makes it pretty certain I won't be giving them up anytime soon.
RaniaSeptember 8, 2011, 1:22 pm
Dear Henry, Citizen, CigarGod, and Sumud:
Thank you so much for your beautiful words. I really don't know what to say. I was just trying to make Haytham feel better, and it all just sort of spilled out. I have been where Haytham is so many times and it is not fun. His writing is very clear, concise, and logical, whereas mine is probably just emotional and all over the place (this is why I am certain that Haytham is a better lawyer than I am), but it is cathartic to be on Mondoweiss and to get all of this stuff out because most of the people here actually understand what the I/P conflict is about. I will be sad if Haytham leaves.
Henry, thank you for the Brecht recommendation. I have not read the play, but I will add it to my list. Even if I have the right to be anti-Semitic, I don't want to be. I think that kind of anger and hate is an occupation of the soul, and I want more than anything to be free. I think that's why charges of anti-Semitism do not bother me like they used to; I know who I am and what I am and what I am not.
Thank you for the beautiful comment, CigarGod. If I could hug you I would. I am also going to get the Palestinian hiking book. Thank you for the recommendation, Sumud. ("Sumud" is the best internet handle, by the way. Every time I see it, I smile.)
CitizenSeptember 9, 2011, 8:00 am
Rania, back to you! I am also a lawyer; again, I appreciate your input as well as Haytham's–both a pure heart and a good mind are to be commended. Anti-semitism is the other side of the Zionist coin. By not being anti-semitic you reveal your universal human quality. Nothing is more deadly to Zionism, which began in the 19th Century in Europe as a counter to the assimilationist movement that came in the humanitarian wake of the French Revolution.
CigarGodSeptember 9, 2011, 8:51 am
Four lawyers on this thread so far. I'm surprised. It would be an unpleasant surprise to find some of the opposition here are as well…but since Dersh can be who he is…I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
CitizenSeptember 15, 2011, 11:49 am
I will read it, Sumud–I was wondering so I found, "I am not an orange."
link to uruknet.info
CigarGodSeptember 7, 2011, 8:35 pm
I'm really sorry to see you go. I really valued your posts…sometimes it was like I was doing the writing and other times I wished I was writing it.
Do what you have to do, man…but seriously, the advice I gave you about stepping back and viewing your adveraries from an anthropological perspective…really works. That's how I got over being intimidated. A public speaking instructor first told me to imagine the audience naked…and then as the next step…I invented the anthro tool.
I hope you write a book. You have a gifted perspective and way of writing.
RoHaSeptember 6, 2011, 8:53 pm
"where does that put Turkey?"
On the side of morality.
longliveisraelSeptember 7, 2011, 12:59 am
Oh, Turkey is moral for you now. Never mind the killing of thousands of Kurds, just a few days ago many more than were killed on the Mavi Marmara. Never mind the Armenian Genocide.
Never mind the slide into Islamism, and we all know what happens when countries go that route. (Iran, Somalia, Sudan anyone)
Do you really think that this is about the Palestinians? They are being used for his agenda just like they have been for decades by their so-called friends in the Arab/Muslim world.
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 1:53 am
Never mind the killing of thousands of Kurds, just a few days ago many more than were killed on the Mavi Marmara.
Thousands LLI?
Never mind the Armenian Genocide.
Agreed. A sahemful chapter in Turkey's history. Why do you suspect Israel lobbied to keep it out of the UN for so long then?
Never mind the slide into Islamism, and we all know what happens when countries go that route.
Slide into Islamism? Ever heard of the word bullshit?
Do you really think that this is about the Palestinians?
Yes, which we saw in his tirade against Simo Peres after Cast Lead.
They are being used for his agenda just like they have been for decades by their so-called friends in the Arab/Muslim world.
Just as Jews are being used for the Zionist's agenda.
AntidoteSeptember 7, 2011, 3:04 am
KURDS blah blah blah ARMENIAN GENOCIDE blah blah blah ISLAMISM blah blah blah
you forgot Northern Cyprus in your tiresome litany of hasbara talking points. Here's the dirt on Turkey, with Israel smelling like roses, according to Guardian of Zion Daniel Pipes:
"c Turkey's invasion of July-August 1974 involved the use of napalm and "spread terror" among Cypriot Greek villagers, according to Minority Rights Group International. In contrast, Israel's "fierce battle" to take Gaza relied on only conventional weapons and entailed virtually no civilian casualties.
c The subsequent occupation of 37 percent of the island amounted to a "forced ethnic cleansing," William Mallinson said in a just-published monograph from the University of Minnesota. In contrast, if one wishes to accuse the Israeli authorities of ethnic cleansing in Gaza, it was against their own people, the Jews, in 2005.
c The Turkish government has sponsored what Mr. Mallinson calls "a systematic policy of colonization" on formerly Greek lands in Northern Cyprus. Turkish Cypriots in 1973 totaled about 120,000 people; since then, more than 160,000 citizens of the Republic of Turkey have been settled in their lands. Not a single Israeli community remains in Gaza.
c Ankara runs its occupied zone so tightly that, in the words of Bulent Akarcali, a senior Turkish politician, "Northern Cyprus is governed like a province of Turkey." An enemy of Israel, Hamas, rules in Gaza.
c The Turks set up a pretend-autonomous structure called the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus." Gazans enjoy real autonomy.
c A wall through the island keeps peaceable Greeks out of Northern Cyprus. Israel's wall excludes Palestinian terrorists."
So there you have it: Hamas rules in Gaza, and Gazans enjoy full autonomy. The Turks are crazy. There is no blockade, no problem, nothing of the sort. No Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from Gaza. Never mind they were ethnically cleansed into Gaza.
hey, lli: Do you really think that this is about the Jews? They are being used for Netanyahu's agenda just like they have been for decades by their so- called friends in the Jewish/Christian world.
RoHaSeptember 7, 2011, 8:29 am
"Oh, Turkey is moral for you now."
In this case, Turkey is on the side of morality. It isn't necessarily on the side of morality on every issue, but I didn't say it was.
marc b.September 7, 2011, 9:33 am
In this case, Turkey is on the side of morality.
it is. but don't waste your time with the likes of lli (who live by larry summer's dictum, 'the world's a shitty place'.) they whine on about israel being held to a unique and impossible standard, and then dismiss out of hand any source of criticism of israel because the speaker isn't morally pure.
ScottSeptember 6, 2011, 8:54 pm
Interesting to see the comments on the NPR site–the hasbara anti-Turkey line has been disseminated and is out in full force.
DICKERSON3870September 6, 2011, 9:06 pm
Silent Light (Luz silenciosa / Stelle Licht), 2007 ~ link to movies.netflix.com
P.S. It moves like molasses.
LesSeptember 6, 2011, 9:14 pm
Turkish PM 'totally suspends' defence trade links with Israel
By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem
link to independent.co.uk
Published on Tuesday, September 6, 2011 by Reuters
Egypt Rallies Support for Palestinian Statehood at UN
by Aleksandar Vasovic
BELGRADE — Egypt lobbied the more than 100 members of the Non-Aligned Movement on Tuesday to support Palestinian statehood at the United Nations this month, and said it believed a majority would do so after a two-day meeting of the group in Serbia.
link to commondreams.org
Richard WittySeptember 6, 2011, 9:15 pm
Its just that Turkey is sticking its neck out. Its a gamble for them as well.
They are lucky that Netanyahu is in power in Israel, as he has alienated many of Israel's relations.
That will change.
Its a provocative approach, not presented as conditional, but presented as a tide of opposition. Israelis have been writing about the prospect for six years, since Erdogan's party assumed power.
There should remain some considerable insistence on Gaza Palestine that they recognize Israel's existence and endeavor to a genuine peace. The reality is the reality.
It can change to mutual respect, but it won't change to Israel disappearing or weakening even.
HaythamSeptember 6, 2011, 9:52 pm
Witty said blah blah blah Gaza blah blah Israel's existence blah blah reality.
Blah blah mutual respect blah blah Israel disappearing blah blah.
I agree completely.
DBGSeptember 6, 2011, 9:55 pm
Other than money from military contracts, what exactly is Israel losing here?
thankgodimatheistSeptember 6, 2011, 11:42 pm
"Other than money from military contracts, what exactly is Israel losing here?"
A friend?
DBGSeptember 6, 2011, 11:57 pm
They haven't been friendly since AKP took power. Befriending Israel isn't fashionable amongst Islamist governments.
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 3:05 am
They haven't been friendly since Cast Lead.
Befriending Israel isn't fashionable amongst Islamist governments.
Neither is befriending fascist apartheid states.
ShingoSeptember 6, 2011, 10:35 pm
Sicking one's neck out is always a gamble, hence the term, "sticking your neck out".
They are lucky that Netanyahu is in power in Israel, as he has alienated many of Israel's relations. That will change.
No it won't. Israeli relations with Turkey soured durign Cast Lead (under Kadima) and have become progressively worse.
Its a provocative approach, not presented as conditional, but presented as a tide of opposition.
What the fuck are you talking about Witty? Do you even think before typing this crap?
They made the condition very clear. Aplogise for the flotilla atatck and pay reperations.
There should remain some considerable insistence on Gaza Palestine that they recognize Israel's existence and endeavor to a genuine peace.
As always, for Witty, it's always up to the Palestinians to placate Israel and only then, the Israelis might reciprocate – but only if they feel like it.
thankgodimatheistSeptember 6, 2011, 11:45 pm
"Its a provocative approach, not presented as conditional"
Have you heard of Turkey's demand for an apology?
Calling you "autistic" would be an insult to all those inflicted with this condition, so I won't do it.
Richard WittySeptember 7, 2011, 5:49 am
Lots of "blah, blah" of "fucks" in a sentence, don't construct truth.
The time is to offer acceptance of Israel, so that war is not the setting that Gazans, West Bank Palestinians, Arab Israelis, and Jewish Israelis, live in.
The sincere offer of peace will diminish the argument of "defensible borders" which are right now compelling in the environment of orchestrated animosity.
thankgodimatheistSeptember 7, 2011, 6:33 am
Respond to this Witty: You said:
"Its a provocative approach, not presented as conditional"
I said:
Have you heard of Turkey's demand for an apology?
Yes or no?
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 7:19 am
The time is to offer acceptance of Israel, so that war is not the setting that Gazans, West Bank Palestinians, Arab Israelis, and Jewish Israelis, live in.
Has there ever been a greater bore that Witty? The only thing first and foremost on hsi mind is how to convince the world to suck up to Israel. Witty must wake up every morning, and as he lifts his head from his keyboard, the first thing that comes to his mind is how to convince the Palestiniasn to kiss the ass of their tormentors.
The sincere offer of peace will diminish the argument of "defensible borders" which are right now compelling in the environment of orchestrated animosity.
There is no such thing as "defensible borders" Witty. Go back to sleep.
PollySeptember 7, 2011, 1:17 pm
"Witty must wake up every morning, and as he lifts his head from his keyboard, the first thing that comes to his mind is how to convince the Palestiniasn to kiss the ass of their tormentors."
I'm picturing QWERTY spelled backwards across his forehead
KathleenSeptember 6, 2011, 9:38 pm
Juan Cole has a good one up over at Informed Comment on the Turkey/Israel feud
TzomboSeptember 6, 2011, 10:05 pm
I think Turkey is jumping with both feet into the huge power vacuum in the Middle East. All these years no country has ever openly questioned the legality of the Gaza Blockade. Not even the Syrians or the Saudis. And here's Turkey filling the void. The US is clearly not leading anybody anywhere and the EU is as divided as ever. Turkey is the first to let Israel know that its bullying days are over. Egypt is getting more assertive too. There was also a report today that Egypt is trying to convince members of the non-aligned countries to vote in favour of a Palestinian state within the 1967 boundaries. Erdogan is clearly thinking of some kind of cooperation with Egypt. In both countries supporting the Palestinians and standing up to Israel is a very popular/populist stance. Israel is feeling the pain of the US decline earlier than anyone else.
AntidoteSeptember 6, 2011, 10:41 pm
"Turkey is the first to let Israel know that its bullying days are over"
Cc USA
DBGSeptember 6, 2011, 11:31 pm
What is Erdogan going to do about Egypt's blockade of Gaza? My guess is he won't even mention it @ his Tahrir speech. That will be proof that like all the leaders before him, he doesn't really care about Gazans, he is just sabre rattling.
Can anyone explain to me how Israel is the only country which allows goods into Gaza and they are illegally blockading them?
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 1:44 am
What is Erdogan going to do about Egypt's blockade of Gaza?
Break it, or better still, simply ignore it. It's not like Israel wil start a war with someone they can't beat.
Can anyone explain to me how Israel is the only country which allows goods into Gaza and they are illegally blockading them?
What's the contradition DBG? The US was blockaing Iraq and still allowing some goods to arrive.
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 8:45 am
Break it, or better still, simply ignore it. It's not like Israel wil start a war with someone they can't beat.
I meant, what is he going to say to the Egyptians about it. He is saying the blockade is illegal, but making deals with Egypt. The guy is talking about of all sides of his mouth right now. The Arab world and it's blind supporters may not see how hypocritical he is being, or the run away train he has himself on, but the rest of the world, the EU included certainly sees it.
Chaos4700September 7, 2011, 9:08 am
Egypt is not sieging Gaza. There are no Egyptian warships in Gazan waters, attacking and killing anyone who tries to reach Gaza. So cut the bullshit.
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 9:31 am
Chaos, they have a border with Gaza, no? you know that right?
I don't understand a siege that allows in in food, basic goods, electricity, internet, etc. etc. how is this a siege?
Chaos4700September 7, 2011, 9:45 am
A) Egyptian forces are on ONLY their border. Israeli forces are on EVERY border. Including the Egyptian border (see also: EUBAM agreements), international waters and Gazan airspace.
B) The Gazans are perfectly capable of generating their own electricity, except that you bombed their power plant. They're capable of harvesting their own food, except that you razed their farms and you attack their fishing boats. The Gazans could easily get their basic goods from Europe with a healthy economy, except that Israel prevents that.
A siege is about control. You seek to run EVERY aspect of the Gazans lives by making them dependent on you, and you alone, or else they must starve.
You wish to conquer Gaza and make it your slave state. Egypt has demonstrated no such policy. That makes what you're doing a siege.
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 3:55 pm
Chaos, again buddy, American, no siege here. As for control, Egypt controls their border w/ Gaza, not Israel, there are no Israeli personal at the Rafah crossing.
Gaza depends on Israel for the fuel for the electric station, (do some research, it is operable)
And there is also no starvation, there is starvation in Somalia and Ethiopia, not in Gaza.
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 7:18 pm
He is saying the blockade is illegal, but making deals with Egypt. The guy is talking about of all sides of his mouth right now.
No DBG, you are.
The blockade is not Egypt's idea, it's what Egypt has to do to keep the money rolling in from Washington. Until last week, Turkey was also being passive about the blockade, having allowed Israel and Washington to pressure them into stopping teh Mavi Marmara from partitipating in the flotilla.
You're just bitter because Israel is becomming isolated and Turkey is too powerful for Israel to push around.
Chaos4700September 7, 2011, 7:20 pm
You talk like an Israeli and you don't care about US interests. I don't care what's on your birth certificate for your birthplace… and I rather surmise you don't, either.
Bullshit there is no starvation in Gaza. Read the UN reports, Denier. And Gaza could easily get its fuel elsewhere if there wasn't a danger that your crappy little police state was going to hijack fuel imported from elsewhere. You're holding the Gazans hostage because you want to destroy Palestinian freedom.
Thanks for dropping the bullshit line about Egypt, clearly it fooled no one and you were wasting our time.
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 7:42 pm
I don't understand a siege that allows in in food, basic goods, electricity, internet, etc. etc. how is this a siege?
Take a trip on a fishing boat with a fisherman from Gaza and then you'll understand.
DBGSeptember 8, 2011, 1:46 am
see also: EUBAM agreements
WOW! you really don't have a clue what you are talking about do you?
The operational phase of the mission began on 30 November 2005. The Rafah Crossing Point was last opened with the presence of EUBAM monitors on 9 June 2007. A total of nearly 450 000 passengers used the crossing before that date, with an average of about 1 500 people a day. Since then, the mission has remained on standby, awaiting a political solution and ready to re-engage at very short notice.
Chaos4700September 8, 2011, 8:03 pm
From page 301 from a report issued by EUBAM:
The EU would monitor PA offcials on the Palestinian side of the crossing point, while Israelis would monitor the crossing point indirectly from Kerem Shalom, by means of closed-circuit television. The EU would lead a liaison office of Israelis and Palestinians at Kerem Shalom to address any disputes regarding implementation of the AMA.
DUMB. ASS. There is a closed-circuit camera at Rafah and Israel was ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS given the power to block the crossing at Rafah.
Unless you can show that Mubarak removed that camera and stopped working with Israel (Ha! Good luck with that.) I have demonstrated that Israel has its hands on Rafah too. Israel has Gaza COMPLETELY surrounded. On EVERY border.
God, seriously, what did you do, just regurgitate to first link you found on Google?
DBGSeptember 8, 2011, 8:30 pm
Chaos, again, need a shovel. what you are saying makes no sense, the monitors were removed in 2007. what exactly are you trying to say here?
There is a closed-circuit camera at Rafah and Israel was ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS given the power to block the crossing at Rafah.
You haven't demonstrated anything, because this program and it's monitors were kicked out in 2007.
annieSeptember 8, 2011, 8:48 pm
dbg, i can't recall the exact conversation but the subject of someone crossing from egypt to israel came up once before and avi made the point there is another crossing there. the one used for all the big trucks and such and they have a fullon set up from the other space that monitors the rafah border from there. i could probably find the comment.
DBGSeptember 8, 2011, 9:08 pm
It is the kerem crossing, but this was all set up for the EUBAM monitors to corroborate with Israel as a faith building mechanism between the two entities.. The problem Annie, is the EUBAM monitors were ejected after the PA was ousted from Gaza, so any argument about EUBAM is silly.
Here is their FAQ:
annieSeptember 8, 2011, 9:29 pm
but i wasn't arguing anything about EUBAM. how does EUBAM change this: Israelis would monitor the crossing point indirectly from Kerem Shalom, by means of closed-circuit television. they still monitor it don't they?
Chaos4700September 8, 2011, 9:48 pm
You haven't demonstrated at all that the closed-circuit monitor was removed, that Israel isn't using it, and that Egypt isn't deferring to Israeli demands.
And if it wasn't bad enough, this was after I shot down your bullshit argument that Egypt was making a siege too, which you TOTALLY backpedaled from and were hoping nobody noticed. Well, we did.
You'll literally say ANYTHING to protect Israel's rights to attack civilians in Gaza. Literally ANYTHING. And your behavior on this thread proves it.
DBGSeptember 8, 2011, 9:51 pm
No, I don't think so, how could they monitor the crossing in Gaza? because EUBAM forgot to take their CC TVs with them? and if Israel saw something they didn't like, would they storm the Rafah terminal through Gaza or Egypt? I am not sure how thick the blinders are here, but think about this rationally.
Chaos4700September 9, 2011, 1:14 am
Show me exactly where EUBAM said they dismantled anything when they left. Otherwise, you're making shit up.
annieSeptember 6, 2011, 11:47 pm
Despite its 80 million citizens, its rapidly growing economy and its large military, Turkey has failed to position itself as an influential regional element.
lol, funny link dgb.
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 12:13 am
annie, i could get google translate to change it to another language if you want to talk about laughable……
their 'economic' miracle is a facade, look at the numbers annie. their main economic partners are all knee deep in the 'Arab Spring' which will greatly affect them. (I know you won't bother, but they are in a credit crisis which over the next few years will end up to be worse than greece and portugal's)
annieSeptember 7, 2011, 12:27 am
oh, if goldman sacks predicts it, it must be true. we all know how honest they are.
As the GDP levels more than tripled to USD 736 billion in 2010, up from USD 231 billion in 2002, GDP per capita soared to USD 10,079, up from USD 3,500 in the given period.
The visible improvements in the Turkish economy have also boosted foreign trade, while exports reached USD 114 billion by the end of 2010, up from USD 36 billion in 2002. Similarly, tourism revenues, which were around USD 8.5 billion in 2002, exceeded USD 20 billion in 2010.
Significant improvements in such a short period of time have registered Turkey on the world economic scale as an exceptional emerging economy, the 16th largest economy in the world and the 6th largest economy when compared with the EU countries, according to GDP figures (at PPP) in 2010.
annieSeptember 7, 2011, 12:30 am
ps, my hunch? what turkey looses in tourism shekels it will triple from admirers. i'm planning on traveling there this fall. i've been saying that for two years but i think i can pull it off soon.
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 12:33 am
Wow Annie, you tell me the sources I used are bunk and then you link to an Invest in Turkey website. sorry but I think David Green is on to something about you.
This is obviously a pre-Arab Spring report. Things have changed since this propaganda piece was written Annie.
annieSeptember 7, 2011, 12:36 am
david green just happens to be the nom de plume of an infamous stalker troll otherwise known as karmafish. not even an ant on my radar of threats. hardly even worth a chuckle. you/him and rw make a great team tho. buddy up guys, it's a perfect match all round.
annieSeptember 7, 2011, 1:19 am
actually i think "david green" is in the process of getting "owned". watch and listen, you might learn something from the pros. i'm not feeling challenged in the least, not even inspired to chomp.
thankgodimatheistSeptember 7, 2011, 5:43 am
"well annie, troll or not he is owning you."
5th grader?
I'm asking because this sounds like something my students would say.
LeaNderSeptember 7, 2011, 7:36 am
sorry but I think David Green is on to something about you.
yes, that is pretty easy to see. Annie is obviously the most active and probably one of the most popular people in this comment section. So David Green started a tit-for-tat response for Richard Witty, to support Richard's heroic fight.
How do you personally differentiate between serious and feigned compassion?
David GreenSeptember 7, 2011, 3:44 pm
annie, you're banal. That's all this is about, other than that you pollute MW, which while misguided, wouldn't be so egregious without you. That of course goes triple for Blankfort; I really blame it on him; I think you're a groupie, and that's meant as an insult. The Palestinian cause isn't a rock concert.
CitizenSeptember 7, 2011, 4:26 pm
I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, David Green, but Israeli Superman is not such a good rock band either. What's less banal about your thoughts?
David GreenSeptember 7, 2011, 4:44 pm
My thoughts are informed by facts and logic, not simply emotion and identification with a victim. Palestinians certainly are victims. The point is to understand how, why, and what to do about it. annie is just a classic case, in so many ways, right down to her precious lower case, her outrage, her false optimism about minor occurrences, and her lack of a sense of proportion.
treeSeptember 7, 2011, 4:56 pm
I think you're a groupie, and that's meant as an insult.
followed by My thoughts are informed by facts and logic
…. and a total lack of self-awareness. Insults aren't a result of "facts and logic".
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 1:42 am
Turkey is no great power:
Why, becasue some envious Zionist pundit says so? Yeah, real convincing.
Most disagree.
RaniaSeptember 7, 2011, 12:27 am
I agree with you 100%, Tzombo. Turkey has an opportunity to become the major power in that part of the world again. Erdogan is greatly admired in the Middle East, especially after walking out at Davos. I think Erdogan is standing up to Israel to show the rest of the countries in the Middle East that it can and should be done, and that the days of kowtowing to the West are over. Erdogan is ambitious, and he is not putting his head in the sand and pretending like the world has not changed in the last year. He can make Turkey a great power again, and I think he will.
SumudSeptember 7, 2011, 10:36 am
I think Erdogan is standing up to Israel to show the rest of the countries in the Middle East that it can and should be done, and that the days of kowtowing to the West are over. Erdogan is ambitious, and he is not putting his head in the sand and pretending like the world has not changed in the last year. He can make Turkey a great power again, and I think he will.
Agree Rania, and the Turkish FM is also impressive. Hard to say for sure but I don't think it's a coincidence that Turkey's forceful response to Israel comes on the heels on the arab spring.
annieSeptember 7, 2011, 1:44 pm
I think Erdogan is standing up to Israel to show the rest of the countries in the Middle East that it can and should be done, and that the days of kowtowing to the West are over.
me too, and i love it.
seafoidSeptember 7, 2011, 5:31 am
The Middle East is now multipolar with Iran in the east and Turkey doing its bit in the north.
Israeli strategy is based on US hegemony .
Turks all saw the video of the US general in Afghan telling his troops he didn't know if they would be paid by the end of the month.
US hegemony is over, dude .
CitizenSeptember 7, 2011, 5:34 am
Tzombo; looks like Time Online agrees with you: link to globalspin.blogs.time.com
RoHaSeptember 6, 2011, 11:08 pm
At the risk of repeating myself – no, dammit, I'm 65; I'm entitled to repeat myself – Turkey is mightily pissed off.
For the last decade or so, Turkish policy has been economic development in a quiet and peaceful neighbourhood. The Turks like to run their factories and trains and cars. They like to heat their houses and cook their food and watch TV. (Weird mob, aren't they.) For this they need lots of gas and oil from Russia, Iraq, and Iran.
And what has happened? The US and Israel have whipped up trouble in Ukraine, Georgia, and Lebanon, as well as destroying Iraq and fomenting unrest among the Iranian and Iraqi Kurds.
Turkey is now telling the world that they are going play a major role in neighborhood affairs, and if the US and Israel don't do like it they can do the other thing.
piotrSeptember 7, 2011, 12:11 am
There is a difference between "legal" and "just", "sane", "reasonable".
There is an island called Hans Island that is claimed by the Kingdom of Dennmark and Monarchy of Canada. Periodically, a Danish ship or Canadian helicopter comes and plants respective flag. Presumably, upon detecting the presence of armed forces of another power they are entitled to force the opponents to leave, shooting if necessary. So legally, Danes and Canadians could should each other legally, like Indians and Pakistanis on Siachen glaciers. But there seem to be a tacit agreement that they do not visit the island in the same year.
So if State of Israel determines that inhabitants do not feel safe if Gazans can import, or, worst of all, export through Mediterranean and very much preferrs that Gazan use Subterranean, it is their privilege as a sovereign State. And if Republic of Turkey determines that citizens thereof need to make commercial visit to Gaza to complete their pursuit of happiness and dignity, they have a similar right. And they can choose Siachen precedent or Hans Island precedent.
This is the beauty of international law. Some differences of opinion can either left unresolved, or resolved with the force of arms.
john hSeptember 7, 2011, 10:00 pm
>> "Turkey is mightily pissed off." <<
Yeah, it's no less than a matter of national honor.
"Erdogan said Wednesday Turkey was determined to keep up its stance toward Israel at any cost.
''We don't care if it costs $15 million or $150 million," Erdogan said. 'We will not allow anyone to walk all over our honor'." (Haaretz)
[You (Israel) can get away with it once, but not twice.]
Henry NorrSeptember 6, 2011, 11:16 pm
What I'd really like to see is Erdogan going to Gaza by sea – on the Mavi Marmara!
RoHaSeptember 6, 2011, 11:34 pm
Preferably accompanied by five Turkish frigates and a couple of flights of Turkish F16s.
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 12:14 am
why do you guys want war so much? A turkish Israel war would be detrimental to the entire ME and to the world.
Turkey I am sure would be a bit hesitant to attack Israel w/ weapons which were purchased from Israel. I am sure Israel wouldn't be dumb enough not to include a 'failsafe' which would cause the missiles to 'misfire'
Henry NorrSeptember 7, 2011, 12:35 am
Who wants war, DBG? I want peace, but peace with justice. In the short run, the blockade of Gaza has to end, and Erdogan going there – especially if he were to go by sea – could help achieve that end
migSeptember 7, 2011, 12:53 am
Turkey dont attack Israel. If someone is on attack mode its Israel. And if in weapons are some sort of "failsafe" system, they dont buy weapons from there next round.
RoHaSeptember 7, 2011, 8:47 am
I don't want war. I want the Israelis to come to their senses.
And facing the prospect of attacking the Turkish Navy – and a resulting war with Turkey – might help them to do that.
Of course, most of Turkey's weapons were not purchased from Israel (Turkey makes a lot of its own equipment, including F16s) and I suspect theTurks would check them over for any hidden "failsafe triggers" anyway.
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 8:47 am
Thanks for the a reasonable response Henry, they are few and far between. So tell me about justice? the only real answer I have been given is all Israelis should be tried for war crimes by the Hague. I don't think that is justice.
eljaySeptember 7, 2011, 8:57 am
>> DBG: So tell me about justice? the only real answer I have been given is all Israelis should be tried for war crimes by the Hague.
1. The only answer for "what is justice" (presumably in relation to the I/P conflict) is "all Israelis should be tried for war crimes by the Hague"? Really? Honestly?
2. Could you please provide a link to just one post in which justice has been defined as "all Israelis should be tried for war crimes by the Hague"?
Thanks. :-)
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 9:06 am
use the new features to look it up eljay. in the mean time, tell me about justice.
justicewillprevailSeptember 7, 2011, 10:23 am
Instead of the faux naivety, which is merely baiting, why can't yo do a little reading yourself and find out. It's not so hard, unless actually you have no real interest in the subject, which appears to be the case. I can't think why anybody bothers to answer but they do, and it doesn't make any difference.
SumudSeptember 7, 2011, 10:41 am
use the new features to look it up eljay.
A recent onslaught of commentators who muse endlessly about all the terrible things said on MW, but when pressed for examples can't come up with the goods.
Don't take up poker DBG.
eljaySeptember 7, 2011, 11:19 am
>> DBG: use the new features to look it up eljay. in the mean time, tell me about justice.
When someone asks me a direct question, I do my best to answer the question before posing one in return. Please answer my question.
When someone asks me to provide a link to something I've claimed has been stated on this site, I provide the link. Please provide a link.
A little courtesy, please.
And thank you. :-)
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 3:32 pm
eljay, here is what I was referring to:
When I asked about justice and compromise:
I have answered your question, now perhaps you could talk to me about what you consider justice, I don't consider justice for everything as Israelis "having their own nuremberg"
SumudSeptember 7, 2011, 7:12 pm
eljay, here is what I was referring to:
Hmm yes DBG, I see why you left out the link and then didn't quote the text when you did provide the link. Your claim:
So tell me about justice? the only real answer I have been given is all Israelis should be tried for war crimes by the Hague. I don't think that is justice.
And what you presented as proof of you claim (your 3:32PM comment above), a comment by Chaos:
There was no compromise at the Nuremberg trials, and there will be no compromise for Israel's crimes.
Now correct me if I'm wrong but *all* Germans were not tried at Nuremberg, just nazi leaders. So when he mentions those trials Chaos is saying what exactly? That *all* Israelis should be tried as the Hague? No.
So what's your problem with Chaos' comment, DBG? Why the misrepresentation? Do you believe war criminals should not be held to account? How is that justice?
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 7:19 pm
the only real answer I have been given is all Israelis should be tried for war crimes by the Hague. I don't think that is justice.
Why not? If someone is guilty of war crimes, that's where they shoudl end up.
Of do you have a soft spot for war criminals? How shoudl they be dealt with?
Chaos4700September 7, 2011, 7:22 pm
Because killing 350 children in a concerted military operation should go unpunished if the victims aren't Jewish? Is that it?
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 7:32 pm
in the mean time, tell me about justice.
Justice really scares uo hasbrats doesn't it? Such is the curse of a guilty mind.
eljaySeptember 8, 2011, 8:10 am
>> eljay, here is what I was referring to:
>> When I asked about justice and compromise:
>> link to mondoweiss.net
Thanks for providing the link.
>> I have answered your question, now perhaps you could talk to me about what you consider justice …
Actually, you haven't answered the question, but here's how I would address the issue of justice in the I/P conflict:
From this post:
>> 6. Perpetrators of grievous crimes against humanity (on both sides) to be prosecuted, presently or posthumously. Criminals must be held accountable. …
And, from this post:
>> I also believe that readily identified terrorists on both sides must be held accountable (accused, tried and, if found guilty, imprisoned) for crimes committed. If said parties are deceased, their crimes must be noted and condemned.
DBGSeptember 8, 2011, 1:57 pm
but it doesn't scare you at all Shingo? both sides are screwed if ppl are going to start being tried for their past indiscretions. Each projectile which is fired into Israel, EVERY ONE OF THEM. is a war crime, you know that right?
ShingoSeptember 8, 2011, 7:59 pm
Why would it scare me DBG? I have no time for those who commit war crimes, be they Palestinian or Israelis.
What scares you is that any Israelis might end up in the Hague doesn't it, especialyl seeing as the Israeli war crimes are an order of magnitude greater than firing a rocket that lands harmlessly in the Negev.
DBGSeptember 8, 2011, 8:17 pm
Israeli war crimes are an order of magnitude greater than firing a rocket that lands harmlessly in the Negev.
It really isn't though Shingo. Every rocket fired is a war crime, so is keeping weapons in schools, mosques, and hospitals. If it came down to a legal inquiry there would be many more Palestinians charged @ the Hague than Israelis.
Chaos4700September 8, 2011, 8:22 pm
Right, DBG and that's exactly why the Nuremburg trials never happened and no Nazis were ever punished for their crimes against humanity, huh.
ShingoSeptember 8, 2011, 9:34 pm
It really isn't though Shingo. Every rocket fired is a war crime, so is keeping weapons in schools, mosques, and hospitals.
Actualy it is DGB. There isn't just one size fits all war crime. War crimes, like any other crimes, cover a range of magnitude and severity.
Israel has a long history fo heeping weapons in schools, mosques, and hospitals, but that si not the same war crime as the massacre fo 1,400 Palestinians.
Arguing that every rocket fired is a war crime, is like argiong that the thef of an orange and stealing from a bank are both still theft.
If it came down to a legal inquiry there would be many more Palestinians charged @ the Hague than Israelis.
On the contrary DBG. Based on the numbers pf innocent civlians killed, or the destruction of private and public property, not to mention human rights violations, the reality woud be quote the oposite.
ToivoSSeptember 7, 2011, 1:05 am
To perhaps repeat what others have said this move by Turkey sounds very interesting. They are of course pursuing their own national interest so it would be naive to expect them act altruistically for the Palestinians. But if from their own real politic perspective they believe this will enhance their international standing it says so much about the declining influence of both the US and Israel.
I was amazed when the Israeli FM made the Turkish ambassador sit in the small chair and then tell the assembled press that he was being deliberately humiliated (in Hebrew which the ambassador apparently did not understand). This had to be height of diplomatic stupidity or some crazed notion that Turkey was not important. Anyone in the world working to delegitimize Israel had to rejoice on this self goal.
What is even crazier is that because of the lobby's influence Congress will likely insist that our State Department support Israel in this folly. We already see the neocons demonizing Turkey because they betrayed us in 2003 when they refused to allow US forces to use their land to invade Iraq.
If the US moves to punish Turkey it seems only reasonable that they will be forced to build counter alliances. One will be to expand their influence in North Africa, Egypt and Tunisia of course, but they also seem to be working hard in Libya. A second one is to their north and east. Here is a sphere of cooperation that would have Goldstone turning in his grave. Imagine Turkey, Iraq and Iran along with Russia, Khazakstan and the other Turkic and Farsi speaking stans of Central Asia moving into some kind of economic alliance. China would of course insist on being part of it. This would have to be a disaster of biblical proportions for US foreign policy. One can only dream, but it does feel good to run through these possible scenarios.
annieSeptember 7, 2011, 1:25 am
This had to be height of diplomatic stupidity or some crazed notion that Turkey was not important.
it was the crazed notion israel was superior. lieberman/israel's chutzpah.
john hSeptember 7, 2011, 2:01 am
Erdogen said: "Israel has always acted as a spoiled child in response to UN resolutions pertaining to it. Israel assumes that it can continue to act like a spoiled child, and evade punishment."
And Haaretz reports that: "A military and economic alliance with Egypt is set to be signed by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. The deal should be clinched when Erdogan visits Cairo next Monday".
The tsunami is gathering speed.
WalidSeptember 7, 2011, 8:13 am
"And Haaretz reports that: "A military and economic alliance with Egypt is set to be signed by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. The deal should be clinched when Erdogan visits Cairo next Monday"."
Do you think that either Turkey or Egypt are entering into any alliances without America's knowledge and consent? Neither can afford to and maybe this is the US' way of sending a message to Israel. I still don't see a tsunami and keep in mind that Israel still has the Abbas card it can play at the last minute.
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 8:46 am
I'm not sure what you mean by the Abbas card Walid.
As for Turkey or Egypt are entering into an alliance, I am sure it was with America's knowledge, not sure if it was with America's consent.
WalidSeptember 7, 2011, 12:11 pm
"I'm not sure what you mean by the Abbas card Walid."
Shingo. I'm thinking back to the time he yanked the scheduled review of the Goldstone findings from the UN Human Rights Commission where it was practically 100% sure the vote would go against Israel. At the time it was said that Israel's licensing of his son's cell company had something to do with it; it could happen again at the last minute at the UN when Abbas is scheduled to apply at the UN.
From an interview of Rashid Khalidi on Democracy Now in October 2009:
"…JUAN GONZALEZ: There have also been some reports in the Arab press of some — pointing to a possible corruption situation with Mahmoud Abbas's son and a cell phone company that —
RASHID KHALIDI: Yeah.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Could you talk about that?
RASHID KHALIDI: Sure. One element of the blackmail, which reportedly has been exercised by the Israelis on the Palestinian Authority in order to persuade them not to go forward with consideration of the Goldstone report in Geneva, was a denial of the granting of a license to a second Palestinian cell phone company in the Occupied Territories.
The situation now is that there's one Palestinian company, not allowed to build cell phone towers in over 60 percent of the West Bank, and a [inaudible], four or five, I think, or six Israeli companies, which build, all over the West Bank, cell phone towers. And so, you basically can't get decent reception. What the Palestinian Authority had been asking for was to have the right to build in occupied Palestine another set of cell phone towers, so that, A, there could be competition, and B, there could be better coverage.
Now, the corruption angle has to do with the apparent fact that Mahmoud Abbas's son is involved with that second company. The bigger issue, of course, is the Israelis denying this extension of cell bandwidth and denial of permission to build, and thereby strangling the Palestinian economy. Cell phones are really crucial, given the fragmentation of territory caused by the way the occupation functions in the West Bank.
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 7:52 pm
I think that Israel played the Abbas card one too many times and that since that report broke, alone with the Palestine Papers, that it's no longer an option for them.
Abbas would not be going to the UN with the bid for statehood, let alone suggesting that the PA be disolved if the Israelis had any more leverage with him.
DBGSeptember 8, 2011, 8:18 pm
America supplies both countries with the majority of their military hardware. Once Turkey starts making military pacts with say Syria or Iran, then the American government would be concerned.
AntidoteSeptember 7, 2011, 11:48 am
Fair enough, Walid. Turkey has already paid tribute to US interests by recently agreeing to host the missile shield after long controversy and bargaining with Nato/the US.
In Turkey and the Muslim world, as well as in parts of Europe, the project is widely suspected to serve as a tool for restoring US hegemony in Nato and the ME by allowing the US to launch a preemptive strike on a rogue state (Turkey strongly objected over the years to have Iran named as the main threat/target) in the ME. For domestic reasons, as well as for the purpose to put his allies and friends in the Muslim world at ease, and all other factors notwithstanding, it may be seen as mandatory for Erdogan to follow such a move with flexing muscle towards Israel, and striking a military alliance with Egypt as a major player in the I/P conflict as well as the Arab Spring. So maybe there is some tit for tat at play here: Turkey agrees to hosting the missile shield in exchange for the US not interfering with Turkey staring down Israel and striking an alliance with Egypt.
I don't understand what you mean by the 'Abbas card' either
WalidSeptember 7, 2011, 1:06 pm
Antidote, I'm not sure Turkey's arm had to be twisted for the anti-Iran radars; I'm seeing that all this US drum beating against Iran is not so much to make Israel happy as much as it's for Saudia's benefit and peace of mind. The real war out there is not between the Muslims and the West but between the Sunni and the Shia that make up about 20% of all Muslims. The Saudis consider the Shia, especially those of Iran, apostates at best and heretics at worst and have had several official fatwas issued against them. Turkey is Sunni and so is Egypt and both have Saudi-inspired MBs or affiliates, as does Tunisia's and Libya's new revolutionaries. While Israel is as rogue and evil as they come, it's not the world's belly button and not everything evolves from it.
AntidoteSeptember 7, 2011, 3:15 pm
" I'm not sure Turkey's arm had to be twisted for the anti-Iran radars"
maybe not but they sure played hard to get. And why not? The missile shield was supposed to be installed this June, if I remember correctly, and Turkey was definitely stalling. Maybe to keep the warmongers in the US and Israel from getting anywhere with the bomb Iran-campaign. Some drum beating was no doubt serious, and not just to calm the Saudi's nerves. The missile shield will presumably work against Israeli missiles as well? Nice.
But thanks for your reply. enlightening, as always
annieSeptember 7, 2011, 2:07 am
it just occurred to me that the bds campaign just snagged a whole country.
wow, impressive.
ToivoSSeptember 7, 2011, 3:17 am
True very impressive. But keep in mind that Turkey is pursuing its own national interests. I noticed that Hillary is becoming concerned. The US is probably trying to find a way to pay off the Turks to back off. If the US can still afford to offer enough then maybe the Turks will back off.
At some point those people running our FP might come to the conclusion that the cost of Israel might just be getting too high. We have already spent a trillion dollars on homeland security and over that on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan — all because of our commitment to Israel. Maybe the day is arriving that we can no longer afford this Israeli relationship.
CitizenSeptember 7, 2011, 5:57 am
ToivoS, those people running FP won't change until it is even more too late; the American masses do not connect the dots to Israel as you do in your comment. All they believe and know is that "it's better to fight them over there than at home & Israel is not Muslim" and at home, they fear Muslims & have accepted the war on Muslim-American citizens by HS so long as their government thinks the targets are aiders n abettors of "terrorism." Our congress goes to the highest bidder, and our Military-Industrial-Security Complex profits.
annieSeptember 7, 2011, 1:28 pm
I noticed that Hillary is becoming concerned. The US is probably trying to find a way to pay off the Turks to back off.
oh yeah, i read about that last night. they are all in a tizzy and ross&co are over in the region now working their 'magic'. i don't think abbas is backing down.
jonahSeptember 7, 2011, 5:59 am
With its extremist policy in Middle East Turkey is increasingly drifting toward Iran, as it moves away from Europe and the West.
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 7:20 am
With its extremist policy in Middle East Israel is increasingly drifting toward isolation and absolute pariah status, as it moves away from everyone else.
WalidSeptember 7, 2011, 7:59 am
"With its extremist policy in Middle East Turkey is increasingly drifting toward Iran, as it moves away from Europe and the West."
You have Europe, the US and Israel to thank for it.
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 8:49 am
Iran has abandoned Turkey also, the early warning radar system, specifically created to target Iran, won't help their cause either.
I thought Lieberman was a moron when it came to foreign policy, but Turkey is really giving him a run for his money.
Chaos4700September 7, 2011, 9:49 am
Keep telling yourself that. The look of shock on your face in a year's time will be priceless.
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 7:22 pm
Iran has abandoned Turkey also, the early warning radar system, specifically created to target Iran, won't help their cause either.
Iran has abandoned no one. Turkey agreed to accept a fat cheque from Washington to host the radar system which has in reality, nothing to do with Iran and everything to do with targetting Russia.
Chaos4700September 7, 2011, 8:04 pm
And will, amusingly enough, be INCREDIBLY effective in defending against Israeli attacks, to boot.
AntidoteSeptember 7, 2011, 11:57 am
I honestly don't understand what you mean by Turkey's 'extremist policy' in the ME, nor do I see any increasing drift towards Iran and move away from Europe/West/Nato. What are you smoking?
CitizenSeptember 7, 2011, 12:08 pm
I don't understand what he means by Turkey's extremist policy" either. Seems to me Turkey is becoming more of an objective leader in its region. Compare the USA, which didn't even stick up for the Turkish American kid murdered point blank on the flotilla boat.
annieSeptember 7, 2011, 1:54 pm
With its extremist policy in Middle East Turkey is increasingly drifting toward Iran
from citizen's time mag link below:
Israeli leaders and their most enthusiastic boosters (ed note: that would be you jonah) in Washington like to paint this as a sign that Turkey had "gone over" to the region's Iranian-led "resistance" camp, but despite the ruling AK Party's roots in moderate political Islam and its insistence on a political solution to the nuclear standoff with Iran, Turkey is in fact a regional rival for influence with Tehran.
piotrSeptember 7, 2011, 6:26 am
There are limits on the power of Israeli lobby.
When my son was under age of 5 months, he had a habit of showing displeasure by banging his head on the floor — not unreasonable before he learned to walk and speak. Then we went for vacation and we rented a nice room near beach and pool, and I was worried about the marble floor (the previous antics were performed on carpet). Strangely enough, our son simply touched the floor as we was crawling and NEVER banged his head on the floor again.
Attacking Iran would be a case of marble floor. They will close Strait of Hormuz and will not reopen until we apologize and promise to never do it again. Perhaps they will add some other demands too. Expensive for them, expensive for all.
Attacking Turkish naval vessels would not be as dire, but almost. Sending Navy would be a hard decision for Turks, but they would probably demand point-blank declaration from USA: is Israel allowed to use weapons purchased from USA against their vessels or not. Because there is really no good answer, we would be forced to mediate, and REALLY mediate, not like between Israel and PA. Of course, we can also choose to humiliate Turks and prompt them to make alliance with Iran. And bang our heads on the marble floor.
Of course, a triple alliance of Egypt, Turkey and Iran would fulfill one of neo-con dream, "reorganizing ME in a more rational manner", but not exactly the way they wanted. I think this is the real purpose of otherwise symbolic cooperation treaty of Turkey and Egypt, and various little (or not so little) gestures toward Iran. Just hinting that we are not in a room with wall-to-wall carpet.
Zionists like Avigdor Lieberman are like 5-month old on a carpet floor. Tantrums are painless. Will they notice the hard floor? Adults sometimes learn much more slowly than infants.
TaxiSeptember 7, 2011, 7:15 am
Israel, it's really very simple: make peace with ALL your neighbors or else you're toast.
jonahSeptember 7, 2011, 8:16 am
make peace with ALL your neighbors or else you're toast.
You mean a imposed peace with all her neighbors, based on all Arab/Palestinian pressures oops …. 'rights'. I love to hear you reiterate your (Arab) great negotiating equity. As if peace was only a matter of Israel.
ShingoSeptember 7, 2011, 8:48 am
I love to hear you reiterate your (Arab) great negotiating equity.
As opposed to Israels?
Jerusalem not negotiable.
Settlements not negotiable.
Hamas, not negotiable.
Occupation, not negotiable.
KathleenSeptember 7, 2011, 8:52 am
Expanding and developing new and old illegal settlements and illegal housing in E Jerusalem has always been the major problem. One thing you can say for Israel they are consistently arrogant and ruthless
seafoidSeptember 7, 2011, 8:19 am
Massive, absolutely massive development in Israel
Israeli settlers in the West Bank vandalized an Israel Defense Forces base on Wednesday, carrying out a "price tag" operation against the army for the first time since adopting the policy in recent years.
Unknown perpetrators infiltrated a base in the Binyamin region and snuck their way to a mechanics workshop on site, where they slashed the tires and cut the cables of 12 army vehicles.
The vandals sprayed the word "price tag" on the walls, as well as other graffiti referring to the three illegal homes demolished by the IDF in the outpost of Migron on Monday.
AntidoteSeptember 7, 2011, 12:11 pm
Witty says: Jews have a right to self-govern and self-determine. So what's the problem? If the Israeli government and army feels free to ignore Supreme Court rulings, why should settlers not feel free to ignore the government army and retaliate against the IDF interfering the settler's interest? If Jews are supposed to submit to rules and laws they don't like, what's the point of having a Jewish state in the first place?
I'm loving it. All the BS about a Jewish state being the only way to eliminate all oppression and violence Jews have suffered for 2000 yrs, and here we are:Jewish settlers launching terrorist attacks on their own military, and hundreds of thousands of Jews sitting in tents and demonstrating against being robbed by Jewish tycoons.
Israel goes Weimar republic
eljaySeptember 7, 2011, 8:43 am
>> link to haaretz.com
>> "Extremists adopted their "price tag" policy to demonstrate discontent with the government's decision to freeze construction in West Bank settlements, but have directed their operations thus far at Palestinians."
Hmmm…seems like the settlers don't believe in "mutual health" or "humanizing 'the Other'".
Damn you, Hamas!!!
DBGSeptember 7, 2011, 8:58 am
Amira Hass: Hamas regime needs the Gaza blockade:
Chaos4700September 7, 2011, 9:05 am
That's a lovely opinion piece. It's totally WRONG, of course, Hamas gained in democratic votes before you guys decided to starve Palestinians into submission and seek to make them slaves to your Jewish state.
Heck, that's exactly WHY you turned Gaza into Warsaw — the results of democracy clashed with Israel's agenda for the Palestinian people, so now you are seeking to destroy democracy to regain your total domination over the Palestinians.
Amira Hass is a great journalists, but like all Israelis, even she defaults to nationalist jingoism every now and then.
eljaySeptember 7, 2011, 9:07 am
>> Hamas believes it has the right to intervene in parents' choices for their children's educational future. It believes it has the right to limit national and societal activity that is not based on its religious axioms.
Disappointing and worth condemning. I condemn it.
So, how does this excuse Israel's ON-GOING occupation?
seafoidSeptember 7, 2011, 8:59 am
The settlers are the political equivalent of the cordyceps fungus
"The question now is, what are the triggers that push a parasite not just to kill its host, but to take over its brain and muscles and then kill it."
eljaySeptember 7, 2011, 9:10 am
Interesting analogy, but I don't see the settlers killing Israel – I see them killing Palestinians. Israel will live on, and some Zio-supremacists will "primarily celebrate".
seafoidSeptember 7, 2011, 10:29 am
I can't see the political leadership holding the line on the status quo. Israel will end up choosing between the economy and the settlers.
"While the old socialist kibbutz movement was dying of ideological exhaustion, its members becoming rich by selling agricultural land to real estate sharks, the national religious sprang up in full ideological vigor, imbued with spiritual and national fervor, preaching a pagan Jewish creed of holy places, holy stones and holy tombs, mixed with the conviction that the whole country belongs to the Jews and that "foreigners" should be kicked out."
Nothing to be expected except for the use of violence.
kapokSeptember 7, 2011, 1:24 pm
Hey! That's my meme. Though I always applied it to the "free" press.
seafoidSeptember 7, 2011, 3:51 pm
It's good, isn't it?
I always think about Goldman Sachs when I see cordy.
Henry NorrSeptember 7, 2011, 3:13 pm
Gilad Atzmon has an interesting post today entitled "Israel Better Think Twice." It begins:
As the rift between Israel and Turkey deepens, the Israeli media is preparing its crowd for another possible exciting bloody conflict.
Israel's leading news outlet Ynet, published yesterday a detailed comparison between Israel's and Turkey's military capacity – it outlines the size of the air force, navy, ground forces in the respective countries. "Turkey", it says, "posses much bigger navy but our air force is larger.'
I guess that this is what one would expect from Israel, a morbid collective driven by war enthusiasm and some bizarre craving for bloody conflict.
LesSeptember 7, 2011, 3:28 pm
Add that just as the US has a military which we can't afford in order to make wars to justify the jobs the military-industrial complex provides as well as its profits, much of our disguised military budget funds Israel's military. When the economic collapse of the US forces our own troops to come home from our many wars against Muslims, Israel will no longer have its military budget supplemented by US taxpayer dollars.
seafoidSeptember 7, 2011, 3:54 pm
"A bizarre craving for bloody conflict" but they get all precious the minute they lose a soldier.
Where are you Ron Arad ? We will never forget you.
And let's not forget little Gilad Shalit who was walking through a meadow of bluebells when he was kidnapped by a wolf.
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True Blue: The Oxford Boat Race Mutinyby Patrick Robinson Daniel Topolski
From the book: In the harsh winter of 1986/7, an event took place in the Oxford University Boat Club which shook the University, and the rowing establishment, to their foundations. It became known, simply, as the Oxford Mutiny. A group of American students, all former internationals, had arrived at Oxford hoping to put some steel into a Boat Race crew still reeling from their recent humiliating defeat at the hands of Cambridge - a hammering which had ended an astounding ten-year winning streak by Oxford. But disagreements over training methods soon brought into focus a bitter clash of personalities between a quiet Scottish mature student, Donald Macdonald, the elected president of the Dark Blues, and a fierytempered rower from California, Christopher Clark. Embodying the amateur sporting traditions of the Boat Race on the one hand, and New World big-star sportsmanship on the other, these two men found two warring factions lining up behind them. The ensuing battle for the control of the Oxford University Boat Club raged for months, making headline news all over the world. Daniel Topolski who, as Chief Coach, had been the architect of Oxford's success, and who now found himself in the middle of this unprecedented row, has finally told his side of the story. Having lost their bid to oust Macdonald, the rebels pulled out of the Boat Race squad just six weeks before the race. Could he, against all odds, mould the inexperienced and demoralised reserve crew of no-hopers into a winning team? Reminiscent of Chariots of Fire, this book is not just about rowing, or even about sport. It concerns the clash of traditional and modern values; petty hatreds and great friendships; and, above all, the triumph of the human spirit.
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text:
Oh man, I miss living in Florida! I just finished mowing the lawn, and it went from sunny and warm to cloudy and very breezy-so I can't say the weeds as planned, gotta come up with a plan B, pulling them does not sound like a good plan B, but it looks like that is going to have to be it.
I am with ya, boy could I use a nap! Mondays are hard, because I tend to sleep in on Sundays. So I am not anywhere near tired enough to go to bed at 9:30 in order to even have a shot at 8 hours.


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RELEASE: A Progressive Carbon Tax Will Fight Climate Change and Stimulate the Economy
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Washington, D.C. — As the nation recovers from Hurricane Sandy, the Center for American Progress today released "A Progressive Carbon Tax Will Fight Climate Change and Stimulate the Economy," which puts forth criteria for putting a price on carbon that both combats the effects of global warming and grows the economy. This issue brief also describes how to design a system that meets these principles, discusses revenue collection, and recommends possible uses for the revenue.
As with most energy policies, the details of a carbon tax are critical to accomplishing its goals. A well-designed pricing system can create jobs, reduce greenhouse gas pollution, and have fair impacts across all regions and income groups. To ensure this positive outcome, the United States should adopt a carbon pricing system that embodies the progressive principles of fairness, environmental safety, and economic growth. The pricing system should:
- Be a high-enough tax to affect pollution rates, increase over time, and be applicable to non-carbon-dioxide greenhouse gases such as methane. This would both ensure a continuing reduction in the release of carbon dioxide, and also encourage companies to move toward cleaner energies instead of different dirty ones.
- Encourage businesses to make new investments in energy efficiency and renewable energy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. This will stimulate the economy and put people back to work in the burgeoning clean-tech and green-jobs sectors.
- Reduce—not increase—economic vulnerability of low-income households by ensuring that they are fairly compensated for any increase in energy prices.
- Have appropriate mechanisms to protect existing American businesses and prevent so-called pollution leakage to countries without similar systems in place. Leakage occurs if highly polluting industries simply move to other countries that don't have a comparable limit on pollution; in this way, they can continue business as usual without stricter environmental regulations. Leakage can also happen if domestic industries shut down, causing us to import goods from other countries.
The issue brief gives advice to Congress on three issues. First, we propose that Congress should set the price of carbon at a level that will lead to climate safety and that this price should rise over time. Second, the carbon tax will ultimately need to cover all major polluters, but it should be phased in to various sectors over time, starting with a tax on pollution from power plants. Third, the revenue needs to be directed to three uses: minimizing harm to vulnerable consumers and businesses, growing the economy with investments in clean energy infrastructure and other infrastructure that makes communities more resilient in the face of climate change, and reducing the deficit burden on future generations.
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