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Skip to comments."The Shroud is not a fake" (Scientists say there is no way to falsify or duplicate it)
Posted on 12/14/2011 11:10:27 AM PST by NYer
The Holy Shroud
marco tosatti
Enea, the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development, has published a report on five years of experiments conducted in the ENEA center of Frascati on the shroud-like coloring of linen fabrics by far ultraviolet radiation. Simply put: we tried to understand how the Shroud of Turin was imprinted by an image so special that it constitutes its charm, and poses a great and very radical challenge, "to identify the physical and chemical processes capable of generating a color similar to that of the image on the Shroud. "
In the following article will see how this research developed (the complete version can be found at this link: opac.bologna.enea.it/RT/2011/2011_14_ENEA.pdf ).
Scientists (Di Lazzaro, Murra, Santoni, Nichelatti and Baldacchini) start from the last (and only) comprehensive interdisciplinary exam of the sheet, completed in 1978 by a team of American scientists from Sturp (Shroud of Turin Research Project). A starting point which all too often those who write about and dissect the Shroud prefer not to take into account, in spite what is evidenced by available information verified by an accurate control on peer reviewed journals, that is, approved by other scientists in objective and independent ways. The Enea report, with a lot of fair play and almost "en passant", very clearly refutes the hypothesis that the Shroud of Turin might be the work of a medieval forger. The hypothesis was supported against many weighted arguments by the results of the disputable and probably biased - C14 measurements; a test whose credibility has been rendered very fragile not only by objective difficulties (the possibility that the fabric is contaminated is very high, especially since its historical journey is only partially known), but also from proven factual errors of calculation and the inability to obtain raw data from the laboratories for the necessary controls. In spite of repeated requests. An omission which in itself can throw a heavy shadow over the scientific accuracy of the episode.
The report notes: The double image (front and back) of a scourged and crucified man, barely visible on the linen cloth of the Shroud of Turin has many physical and chemical characteristics that are so particular that the staining which is identical in all its facets, would be impossible to obtain today in a laboratory, as discussed in numerous articles listed in the references. This inability to repeat (and therefore falsify) the image on the Shroud makes it impossible to formulate a reliable hypothesis on how the impression was made.
In fact, today Science is still not able to explain how the body image was formed on the Shroud. As a partial justification, Scientists complain that it is impossible to take direct measurements on the Shroud cloth. In fact, the latest in situ experimental analysis of the physical and chemical properties of the body image of the Shroud was carried out in 1978 by a group of 31 scientists under the aegis of the Shroud of Turin Research Project, Inc. (STURP). The scientists used modern equipment for the time, made available by several manufacturers for a market value of two and a half million dollars, and took a number of non-destructive infrared spectroscopy measurements, visible and ultraviolet, X-ray fluorescence, thermograph, pyrolysis, mass spectrometry, micro-Raman analysis, transmission photograph, microscopy, removal of fibrils and micro-chemical tests. The analysis carried out on the Shroud did not find significant amounts of pigments (dyes, paints) nor traces of designs. Based on the results of dozens of measurements, the STURP researchers concluded that the body image is not painted nor printed, nor obtained by heating. Furthermore, the color of the image resides on the outer surface of the fibrils that make up the threads of the cloth, and recent measurements of fragments of the Shroud show that the thickness of staining is extremely thin, around 200 nm = 200 billionths of a meter, or one fifth of a thousandth of a millimeter, which corresponds to the thickness of the primary cell wall of the so-called single linen fiber. We recall that a single linen thread is made up of about 200 fibrils.
Other important information derived from the results of the STURP measurements are as follows: The blood is human, and there is no image beneath the bloodstains; the gradient color contains three-dimensional information of the body; colored fibers (image) are more fragile than undyed fibers; surface staining of the fibrils of the image derive from an unknown process that caused oxidation, dehydration and conjugation in the structure of the cellulose of the linen. In other words, the color is a result of an accelerated linen aging process.
As already mentioned, until now all attempts to reproduce an image on linen with the same characteristics have failed. Some researchers have obtained images with a similar appearance to the image of the Shroud, but nobody has been able to simultaneously reproduce all microscopic and macroscopic characteristics. In this sense, the origin of the Shroud image is still unknown. This seems to be the core of the so-called mystery of the Shroud: regardless of the age the Shroud, whether it is medieval (1260 - 1390) as shown by the controversial dating by radiocarbon, or older as indicated by other investigations, and regardless of the actual importance of controversial historical documents on the existence of the Shroud in the years preceding 1260, the most important question, the question of questions remains the same: how did that body image appear on the Shroud?.
There are two possibilities, the scientists write, on how the sheet of the Shroud was placed around the corpse: placed above and below (not in full contact with the whole body stiffened by rigor mortis) or pressed on the body and tied in order to be in contact with almost the entire body surface.
The first method is supported by the fact that there is a precise relationship between the intensity (gradient) of the image and the distance between the body and the cloth. Furthermore, the image is also present in areas of the body not in contact with the cloth, such as immediately above and below the hands, and around the tip of the nose. The second method is less likely because the typical geometric deformations of a three dimension body brought into contact in two dimension sheet are missing. Moreover, there is no imprint of body hips. Consequently, we can deduce that the image was not formed by contact between linen and body.
It is this observation, coupled with the extreme superficiality of the coloring and the lack of pigments that makes it extremely unlikely that a shroud-like picture was obtained using a chemical contact method, both in a modern laboratory and even more so by a hypothetical medieval forger. There is no image beneath the blood stains. This means that the traces of blood deposited before the image was. Therefore, the image was formed after the corpse was laid down. Furthermore, all the blood stains have well-defined edges, no burrs, so it can be assumed that the corpse was not removed from the sheet. There are no signs of putrefaction near the orifices, which usually occur around 40 hours after death. Consequently, the image is not the result of putrefaction gases and the corpse was not left in the sheet for more than two days.
One of the assumptions related to the formation of the image was that regarding some form of electromagnetic energy (such as a flash of light at short wavelength), which could fit the requirements for reproducing the main features of the Shroud image, such as superficiality of color, color gradient, the image also in areas of the body not in contact with the cloth and the absence of pigment on the sheet. The first attempts made to reproduce the face on the Shroud by radiation, used a CO2 laser which produced an image on a linen fabric that is similar at a macroscopic level. However, microscopic analysis showed a coloring that is too deep and many charred linen threads, features that are incompatible with the Shroud image. Instead, the results of ENEA show that a short and intense burst of VUV directional radiation can color a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin, including shades of color, the surface color of the fibrils of the outer linen fabric, and the absence of fluorescence.
However, Enea scientists warn, "it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height, body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come to several billion watts ).
However the Shroud image has some features that we are not yet able to reproduce they admit - for example, the gradient of the image caused by a different concentration of yellow colored fibrils that alternate with unstained fibrils. And they warn: We are not at the conclusion, we are composing pieces of a fascinating and complex scientific puzzle. The enigma of the image of the Shroud of Turin is still a challenge for intelligence, as John Paul II said.
What a horrible outlook on our salvation. Don't you know we have been adopted into the Holy Family of God? Can you so easily toss aside all of the references I gave you that God will reward our deeds? Of course, He will. Why? Because we have been restored as sons of God through the New Covenant of Christ. In that, we have been graced by Christ with the ability to merit from God the approval due to His children.
When we were still separated from Him, He did not delight in our deeds (just as you take no delight in the accomplishments of the neighbor kids). Now, as restored sons and daughters, He does delight in us and our work for His Kingdom is not a mess of filthy rags before Him.
Your quote of the filthy rags comes from Isaiah and it is, again, about the Law. The way you misconstrue this fact is, unfortunately, very Protestant and the source of much misunderstanding between us.
May God bless you.
Maybe you should change your ways.
The shroud has everyone stumped. From a scientific point of view, you can say it's a miracle if it's real and a miracle if it's fake.
The problem, always from a scientific point of view is that you are absolutely free not to believe that it is actually and factually the burial cloth of Jesus Christ, you may "debunk"... but then you have to "bunk".
Okay, it's fake, it's man-made... but how on earth was it made? Just saying the devil made it, to lead man astray, really doesn't do it from a scientific point of view, so what are we left with?
A Medieval (or older) man creating something capable of stumping 21st century science.
So okay, it's a fake, but a fantastically prodigious one. How could its creator have known how to make it forensically so correct with "stuff" that could only have been appreciated by technologies many centuries away? Why would he have bothered?
The devil theory doesn't hold water because believing that it is actually and factually the burial cloth of Christ is not required. Very few Catholics even knew about it. Even today not that many are "obsessed." It's a matter of interest but not of faith. It's a matter of interest to believers and non-believers alike.
It exists. How do we deal with it?
No. That's where you go way off the mark, exegetically. "Works of [the] law" had a specific meaning to Paul, other first century rabbis, and Paul's readers. It meant the ceremonial "works" of the Mosaic law, not any works of any law.
LIke I asked PaforBush:"and what about those things that draw the attention of the non-believer? The things that lead them to investigate and seek answers."
Shroud of Turin PING for the Shroud group...
No one worships it; never have, so please give up that tired old saw, ok? Sheesh.
Very good answer. One could also ask, "What impact does the Cross have on your eternity?"
They are both *things.* yet they lead us to and cause us to focus on HIM. Our Creator made many *things* and many people come to believe in Him because of His creation.
It could be quite interesting to research how any people have come to Christ after discovering the facts of this shroud....precisely because they began to THINK about Christ.
Also, one researcher wrote "the the STURP team were able to extract DNA from the blood on the Shroud prompting the 1999 book by Leoncio Garza-Valdes The DNA of God? This leads to the question of whether or not there could be another DNA sample from a different source relating to Jesus that could be used to cross-reference the Shroud DNA, if so that could solve the Shroud mystery once and for all."
If the Church ever requested this to be compared with the DNA from one of the Eucharistic miracle sources (Lanciano, Italy comes to mind), we might discover some FAR more interesting information.
Thank you for the ping. Everything about the Shroud fascinates me. I believe Christ left it here for those of us who need outward signs more than others. It's a gift!
It's HER Immaculate Conception [Blessed Mary Ever Virgin], celebrated on December 8th. HER Nativity is celebrated on September 8th.
HIS Conception was the Annunciation as celebrated on March 25th. HIS Nativity is celebrated on December 25th.
Nonsense. It is not I that live but Christ that lives in me.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Give credit where credit is due, and it ain't you.
Believe what you will. Replacing one law with another law is still living under a law. I live under grace.
That was completely out of line.
It was in reply to a post that was hateful, self righteous, acccusatory, biased and disingenuous.
All things the devil would certainly approve of.
Nice post! You said it beautifully, and in very few words.
If I kneel down in front of my bed to pray, does this mean I am worshiping my bed?
Whatever happened to the plain, old meaning of Scripture?
Boast of your well doing if you must. Ill continue to give credit to Christ who lives in me. And quite thankfully also I might add.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Its not my faith but the faith of Christ in me.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Nicely summarized!
Thanks, Swordmaker. I can't remember the last time we had a Shroud of Turin ping.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
If you choose to believe the latter, the shroud is just one more of those same type of things. Is it not?
Belief in the Resurrection does not REQUIRE someone to believe that the shroud of Turin is part of that. One can leave the answer to that to G-d and still believe in the Resurrection.
Ping for later
"...work out your salvation with fear and trembling..."
YOURS...not others. It is truly a great weight lifted when one recieves a revelation of this scripture. You are not ultimately responsible for what others believe, or don't believe — especially on a political forum. His burden is light. Take care.
"...work out your salvation with fear and trembling..."
YOURS...not others. It is truly a great weight lifted when one recieves a revelation of this scripture. You are not ultimately responsible for what others believe, or don't believe — especially on a political forum. His burden is light. Take care.
Depends... Are you asking your bed to intercede on your behalf? Do you consider your bed to be the "co-redeemer?"
As far as abuse of relics is concerned... Consider what happened when the Israelites began venerating the golden snake on the staff (those who were snake bitten were to look at it) and the ephod. If something distracts from giving God due worship and focus, it is a stumbling block and should be avoided.
"Depends... Are you asking your bed to intercede on your behalf? Do you consider your bed to be the "co-redeemer?""
Gee, did I really need a sarcasm alert at the end of my question? ;-)
For the record, the answer to your questions (which are also without sarcasm alert) is NO.
The answer would still be NO if I had a candle lit or was kneeling before any stained glass window or statue or whatever. And all those people I know would also answer NO.
"If something distracts from giving God due worship and focus, it is a stumbling block and should be avoided."
Common sense for any sincere Christian.
Nobody's talking about boasting except you. It's not a matter of boasting. It is a matter of doing. And there are things we do that pleases God.
for with such sacrifices God is well pleased If you are not involved in doing good and sharing, which pleases God, then that is a pretty sad state of affairs and you had better repent and change what it is you are doing. When we worship God, it isn't a matter of God worshiping himself. We are involved. I know you've said you haven't done anything that pleases God, but I sincerely hope that is not true.
My wife worships my golden calves...and thighs.
(Some of the usual crowd have arrived, too...)
False. Expert forensic pathologists, not amateur skeptics who have only measured flat photographs and came up with those extreme measurements by "guessing depths", have determined that the image is correctly sized for a man approximately 5' 9"- 10" tall, that is bent slightly forward in rigor mortis. This has been confirmed in several peer reviewed journals and papers. Your figure was publish in NO peer reviewed journal and was reported only in one skeptical magazine... and has no basis in actual research. The SCIENTISTS put their names and reputations on the line in published articles in peer reviewed MEDICAL JOURNALS... the skeptics published in popular press magazines, or their own skeptical journals and congratulated themselves on showing up those stupid scientists!
The head is too small for the body and appears to have been pasted on (large separation line at neck)
Also false. Same as above... The head is only too small if you use the absurd 6' 10:" calculated height. The pasted on claim is solely based on the appearance of a pleated fold in the cloth running across the neck that is an artifact of early black and white photographs and wishful think on the part of skeptics. Without the distortion of the false height, the head is perfectly proportional. with the given body size.
If the shroud was draped around the body head-to-toe, why isnt the top of the head shown. The intervening space is too short and the images appear hinged.
Also false... there is approximately five inches of space separating the dorsal and frontal images at the head. In addition, the jaw was kept closed by a cloth wrapped over the head and under the jaw, tied at the crown, thus obscuring any image that may have formed... this was the cloth wrapped "around the face." No one else, other than the single skeptical magazine report has ever claimed this "hinged effect" as the space is obvious to other observers. It is a red herring. What the skeptics claimed is the top of the dorsal head is merely a water stain.
Had they bothered to look at a photograph of the entire shroud stretched out, instead of just the frontal image, and drawn a few lines, say, some through where the ear line would have gone appropriately above the shoulders on both the frontal and dorsal images, it becomes obvious where the crowns of both images' heads would be... and the spacing becomes obvious. But, the skeptics NEVER let facts like those get in the way of a good debunking theory.
The real miracle is that it appears to be the worlds first photograph. Capturing images was widely known even in Roman times, but the image soon faded. Someone found out how to set the image.
This one is a complete lie. No historian has EVER come up with a report of captured images from Roman antiquity! Camera obscuras were known but capturing images was NOT a technique that anyone ever accomplished. . . that was reported on. The image on the Shroud is NOT any known photographic technique... it not at all an artifact of light.In fact it is a not a photograph at all, which is a shadow record, because it shows absolutely NO light directionality in the data.
The Shroud is rather a three dimensional terrain map of the body over which the shroud was draped. In other words it is an inverse, two dimensional database of the distance the surface of the cloth was from the body. The image is most intense when touching the body, but fades to nothingness at approximately 5 centimeters distance from the body... AND the data is collimated straight up and down, with absolutely no observable side to side variation!
Ergo your claim about "someone found out how to set" a nonexistent ancient photograph is so much twaddle. . .made up by a desperate skeptic, ignorant of the science because he refused to accept that "shroudies," all of whom were world renowned experts in their fields, could possibly do good science, even though he himself was merely a failed magician who's college degree was in English Literature!
So much for the "debunking" crowd... who wouldn't know good science if it bit them on the arse!
IT is, in fact a very miraculous object... whether in religion or art or science. If it is NOT the burial shroud of the son of God, then it is even more miraculous in that it was created with techniques that modern science cannot discern, divine, or even duplicate seven hundred or more years after the latest possible known creation date of this remarkable artifact, if it is indeed an object of artifice. . . and there is credible evidence that it was in existence at least eleven hundred years ago!
Only one slight problem... they aren't facts.
They are made up hogwash from a skeptical magazine, and not from peer-reviewed science. They aren't true.
Those "facts" are demonstrably false. . . and fly in the face of work done by true scientists who are experts in their fields.
They were published by a failed stage magician who's expertise is that he has a degree in English Literature, quoting journalists and others with similar expertise. He has NO HANDS ON TIME with the shroud at all. His measurements are twaddle. Nothing more.
As a Christian, a scientist, and one who likes history, I always find the Shroud topic interesting.
I recall some anatomy expert commenting on it and how the muscles, tendons, etc. are perfect in the image when it comes to the scourge marks, the rigidity in death, etc. (One of the pieces of information against a medieval forger with no detailed knowledge of anatomy back then.)
And I believe that it was VERY rare for one to be scourged so many times and ALSO crucified. It was usually (always?) one or the other.
I recall an old thread when that TV special on the 3-D recreation of the shroud was made, and there was some older gal that was a physics genius - talking about huge amounts of energy, and relating it to a time-distortion type thing (like a black hole). Not sure if this paper comes out of some of her research, or if it only in part confirms/adds to it.
Interesting stuff.
The 1988 Carbon dating tests have been invalidated. The sample has been proved to have been a PATCHED area of the shroud. It was taken in violation of the protocols established by the STURP team, from an area they identified as not homogenous with the main body of the Shroud in that it seemed to be chemically different from the main body (it fluoresced differently, had somewhat different properties than the rest of the Shroud).
In 2005, it was shown that the sample was cut from an area that had been REWOVEN in the 15-16 Century to repair a frayed area using a skilled technique called French Invisible Reweaving in which new threads were skillfully rewoven into the old threads after being artfully dyed to match the old.
In fact, the C14 test ACCURATELY dated a melange of old, original Shroud FLAXEN LINEN of unknown age mixed with NEWLY added 15th or 16th Century dyed COTTON threads... in a varied proportion, depending on which sub sample was burned of between 40% new to 60% new threads... which skewed the dating severely. In fact, they skewed the dates so much that the resulting tests reported AT THE TIME fell outside the range of confidence of the test between the samples! THE TESTING SCIENTISTS SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THE SAMPLES WERE NOT HOMOGENOUS!!!! In fact, the difference in the reported dating was proportionate to the proportion of the newer material in the subsample.
Harry Gove, the inventor of the C14 testing system used to date the Shroud, when asked "How old would the original material had to have been, given a known date of 15-16th Century and a 40-60% contamination to skew the date to the amount the final tests reported?" He did some calculations and said "Give or take 100 years, 1st Century!"
Three independent researchers approaching the matter using three different methods, reported the findings in peer-reviewed journals. The samples taken from the shroud and tested in 1988 from the ONE SITE the STURP scientists agree should be avoided, were corrupted by 16th century repairs. . . The C14 tests of 1988 are totally invalid! This is now settled science.
Only the skeptics keep pointing to invalid science and ignoring that science has moved on in the 23 years since a mistake was made... because sloppy science was done.
In December 2009, archaeologists announced the discovery of a shroud-like cloth in a cave in Jerusalem that dated to the time of Christ. Unfortunately, it was made with a simple two-way weave not the twill weave used on the Turin Shroud, which textile experts say was introduced more than 1000 years after Christ lived.
MORE BS! The Egyptians had three over 1 twill used in their mummies' inner wrappings... It is just a finer quality cloth! Rich people could afford to buy better weaves. That is another red herring raised by the skeptics, and it is a lie. There were cloths made of Byssus, too... a transparent cloth that we have difficulty making today... it's made from the hairs from a very rare sea urchin... and is far finer than silk.That doesn't mean our ancestors couldn't weave it. In other words, there were many variations in the quality of cloth 2000 years ago. It all wasn't one over one weave. The Shroud was woven on a wall loom... something that was no longer being used in Europe or the eastern Mediterranean after about the fifth century... But that doesn't mean someone MIGHT have been using one all the way to the thirteenth century. You still see examples of them in use in Africa today. That means nothing too. But there are MANY three over one twill cloths from the first century and before that survive. What's more important is the method of bleaching that was used... it fell out of practice almost world wide in the fifth century. How would a medieval forger know that?
The Jewish burial practices were WRITTEN down... just as much of the obligations of Jewish life were written down... and we KNOW what they were. A sindon was used if you could afford one... a sindon was a large Single cloth, a shroud. Joseph of Arimathea was a wealthy man. The bible says he bought one... read the original GREEK... a "fine Linen cloth," a sindon. The greek verb "entulisso" includes a definition "to enwrap" which is what a Shroud does... and it also means to twist and wind the cloth around itself... which is what one does when one takes a flat cloth and twists it into a rope like kerchief to make a long narrow strip to bind something that needs tying. Jewish tradition required that the dead be bound at the jaw, wrists and ankles with STRIPS of cloth to prevent the mouth from gaping open and limbs from flopping akimbo. THERE are your strips of linen. They were NOT bound like egyptian mummies. NO Jewish burial has ever been found so bound in multiple swaddling strips. They HAVE been found with wound cloth wrapped around the ankles and wrists and a similar binding circling the skull.
A year after a burial, the family would return to the tomb, collect the bones and place them in the central pit, the ossuary, amassing them with the ancestors bones. This would be much complicated if the body were entangled in a mass of rotting cloth.
The facecloth exists to this day... but it did NOT cover the face... it wrapped "around" the face. It was twisted into a long rope like kerchief and was used to tie the jaw closed, passing under the jaw, around the face, behind the ears, under the beard, and tied at the crown of the head to keep the mouth closed. It is called the Sudarium (sweat cloth) of Oviedo and is kept in the Cathedral at Oviedo Spain. It bears matching blood stains with the Shroud, a bloody hand print where it was used to cover the head of Jesus when he was on the Shroud and carried to the tomb, then taken off, rolled into the binding, which is obvious by the blood stains, and then tied around the face. This is the cloth that was found apart from the burial clothes... just as if Jesus got up... walked a ways and then pulled it from around his face and dropped it.
Then bible may be "authoritative" but it is NOT exhaustive. There are many things done in Jewish burial practices that were not listed in the Bible that were done to Jesus... We know they had to be done... but they were glossed over in a few words of "in the manner of the Jews."
Walter C. McCrone, head of a Chicago research institute and a specialist in authenticating art objects, examined the shroud. He found a pale, gelatin-based substance speckled with particles of red ochre on fibres from the part of the cloth that supposedly showed the figure of Christ. He also found that fibers from the wounds had stains, not of blood, but of particles of a synthetic vermilion developed in the Middle Ages. He said the practice of painting linen with gelatin-based temperas began in the late thirteenth century and was common in the fourteenth.
Walter C. McCrone is the ONLY researcher of the Shroud who REFUSED to have his work peer-reviewed despite his agreement to do so in order to be given samples. His ONLY publications on the Shroud were in his own vanity press magazine The Microscopist published by McCrone Research Inc., and sometimes edited by Walter C. McCrone. His findings (the shroud was painted with vermilion [HgS] and red ochre/iron oxide [Fe2O3] paint in a dilute egg albumin solution) have been completely DISPROVED in peer-reviewed scientific journals by scientists using far more sensitive instruments than McCrone's optical and polarized light microscopes.
NOT ONE other researcher, and there have been hundreds, looking at what McCrone looked at has seen what McCrone claims to have seen. While there are scattered Fe2O3 and HgS particles on the shroud, they are randomly scattered, contaminating both image and non-image areas. At no time are there sufficient concentrations of either to rise to visibility.
McCrone sees the image is formed with quot;paint". This cannot possibly be in agreement with what we now KNOW forms the image:
The substance is a dried carbohydrate mixture of starch fractions and various saccharides (sugars). It is as thin (180 to 600 nanometers) as the wall of a soap bubble. It is thinner than the invisible glare proof coating on modern eyeglasses. . . In some places the coating has turned a golden brown. This is the result of a chemical change: the formation of a complex carbon-carbon double molecular bond within the coating. There are two ways this could have happened chemically: 1) caramelization, whereby heat caused molecular breakdown into other volatile compounds and 2) a Maillard reaction in which a carbonyl group of sugars reacted with an amino group producing N-substituted glycosylamine. An unstable glycosylamine undergoes Amadori rearrangement, forming ketosamines, which then form nitrogenous polymers and melanoidins. Voila, pictures of Jesus.
There is a problem with caramelization. The amount of heat required for browning would also heat the cellulose fiber sufficiently to change its crystalline structure and cause it to change color as well. That has not happened. Where a picture bearing bit of coating is removed, either with adhesive or with a reducing agent such as diimide, the fiber beneath is clear and un-ablated.
A Maillard reaction seems more promising because of the presence of amines needed for a Maillard reaction. Of course, it didn't need to be Jesus; at least chemically. It could have been any recently deceased person.
Ergo, NO paint! This alone COMPLETELY discredits McCrone.
Microscopist McCrone claims "No Blood on the Shroud" McCrone goes further and baldly states the "blood stains" are merely a Vermillion (HgS) and Iron Oxide paint mixture. He also states categorically that the Iron Oxide is "earthen" in nature and could not come from blood. Yet world renowned experts on blood, blood fractions, blood remnants, and forensic blood disagree.
Let's look at other tests done by scientists who don't rely on what they can see through a microscope, say the pyrolysis mass spectrometer tests, much more discriminating that what can be seen through a light microscope, that show that what vermillion (HgS) exists on the shroud is again, random, insufficient to be visible, and not at all associated with the blood stains.
Instead of discredited McCrone, take the testimony of chemist Dr. Alan Adler and biophysicist Dr. John Heller, experts on blood and blood fractions, who state categorically in peer-reviewed scientific Journals, that the blood stains consist of hemoglobin and its derivatives. Aside from light microscopy, Heller and Adler tested for hemochromagen (positive), cyanmethemoglobin (positive), bile pigment bilirubin (positive), and proteolytic enzymes (positive), human specific protein albumin (positive), presence of serum halos around stains (positive), and immunological determination that the blood is of primate origin. Perhaps we should look at Yale University's Dr. Joseph Gall's spectrophotometer tests that showed the blood absorbing light in 410 nanometers... a test that he states is "specific" for blood as "nothing in nature that absorbs light at four hundred ten nanometers that strongly". Or perhaps we should accept the word of Dr. Bruce Cameron, whose "double doctorate is dedicated to hemoglobin in all its many forms", who on reviewing the test results stated "You both should know what it is. It's old acid methemoglobin." (a remnant compound of aged blood.)
Ergo, according to some of the world's top experts on blood, the blood stains on the Shroud of Turin, are exactly that... blood stains. Again McCrone's bald statements are refuted. I could also go into McCrone's attempts to sabotage other researcher's work including preventing his own colleagues from having access to the samples of Shroud threads he had.
You want sources?
Adler, Alan. "The origin and nature of blood on the Turin Shroud" in Turin Shroud - Image of Christ? William Meacham, ed. (Hong Kong: Turin Shroud Photographic Exhibition Organising Committee, 1987), 57-9.In the 1980s, Jesuit priest Robert A. Wild expressed surprise that the bloodstains showed no trace of smearing after all the movement and transport the body would have endured. Wild also noted that the hands of the body masked the genitals. He said this couldnt be right. No matter how you arrange a body after rigor mortis, he said, the hands cannot cover the genitals unless you prop up the elbows on the body and bind the hands tightly in place. Yet this is not what the shrouds image shows.
Adler, Alan." Updating Recent Studies on the Shroud of Turin" Archaeological Chemistry: Organic, Inorganic, and Biochemical Analysis, American Chemical Society Symposium Series No. 625, Chapter 17 (1996), 223-8.
Ford, David. "The Shroud of Turin 'Blood' Images: Blood or Paint? A History of Science Inquiry" University of Maryland Baltimore (2000), PDF file, "http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ford1.pdf", 2/17/2005. Heller, J.H. and A.D. Adler, "Blood on the Shroud of Turin", Applied Optics 19:2742-4 (1980).
Heller, J.H. and A.D. Adler, "A Chemical Investigation of the Shroud of Turin", Canadian Society of Forensic Sciences Journal 14: 81-103 (1981).
Porter, Daniel. "The Chemical Nature of the Shroud" http://www.shroudstory.com/faq-chemistry.htm/ (2005), 2/17/2005.
Rogers, Raymond N. "New Tests Prove 1988 Carbon 14 Dating Invalid: Shroud of Turin Shown to be Much Older". Thermochimica ActaVolume 425: 189-194, (2005).
As mentioned, the hands ARE bound in place... and, ReMomof7, Barrie Schwortz, the principal light photographer of the 1978 STURP project has told me that under extreme computer enhancement, the genitals of the man on the shroud are just barely discernible, not completely covered... and he was circumcised. The genitals are just at the extreme edge of the range of the terrain map data.
Barrie is Jewish, and maintains the primary Shroud.com archive site where all of the scientific and scholarly papers are kept and available for people to see. He took most of the photographs you see of the scientists working on the Shroud in 1978, and the photos of the Shroud that are published on the Web... from that examination. He is in a position to know what computer enhancement has shown.
Interestingly, this date accords with the carbon-14 tests, which dated the shroud to about the first quarter of the 1300s although some information suggests that this is the date the cloth was repaired, and the repaired cloth was the part that was carbon-dated. The date agrees with art expert Walter McCrones estimate of the age based on known painting styles (see 6th point above).
As to "Painting styles" of the 14th Century... that is BS too. No one in the 14th century was painting ANYTHING in this style. NOTHING. period. Many art experts have looked for anything even remotely similar and have found not one similar work. Not one. Jesus was never portrayed nude. Realism of this nature was not a stylistic of the period. So that was more bunk in this article you are citing. There are hundreds of scholars who will call that claim BS. I challenge anyone to come up with a painting from the period that matches the "painting style" of the Shroud from the period. This is just another one of the lies of the skeptics used to rope in the ignorant.
In 2005, N.D. Wilson, a fellow of literature at New St. Andrews College in Moscow, Idaho, showed it would have been easy for a medieval to create a 3-D photonegative. Wilson painted faces on glass, put the painted panes on linen, and left it in the sun for various lengths of time. The images Wilson produced look remarkably similar to the Shroud of Turin, although Wilson was the first to admit that this in itself did not disprove the Shrouds authenticity.
Sorry, Wilson's image was NOT 3D... it was a flat photograph. and had no 3D qualities at all. It also faded quite rapidly with exposure to the sun as the rest of the linen quickly starched to match the rest of the unexposed linen. His work was crude and lacked many of the criteria for "duplicating" the Shroud. It had all been done before in the 1930s, as well. . . and was debunked then. Wilson was also working with a FOREKNOWLEDGE of negative methodology, something a medieval artisan would not have... and was working from a photo negative, duplicating a negative photograph to get his results. Again, a medieval forger would not have had an exemplar to work with. And, again, the Shroud does not fade with exposure to light. Ergo, it was not made this way. We KNOW what the image is made from... and it is NOT a light photograph. So these skeptics are merely dancing, trying to find a way to explain it away.
The brilliant blood shrouds were most likely one or another of the copies of the Shroud that were made by pious artists... there are 27 known copies in existence and some of them, to this day, have brilliant "blood stains" on them, due to artistic license. These ARE painted with red ocher and vermilion. These copies were made, and after drying, were pressed to the Shroud of Turin to give them "sanctity" (this is thought to be the source of the randomly scattered flecks of red ochre and vermilion on the Shroud that is to little to rise to visibility) and then taken out and displayed. Ignorant observers often thought they were seeing the real one... and reported what they saw.
Great post, Swordmaker.
Thanks so much.
I'm not just agreeing with you because I don't want to argue with a swordmaker....but what I meant is I loved the idea of arguing the shroud based on something provable, something measurable. Some clown who just parrots some Klannish preacher and repeatedly tells people what they believe, even when told it is in fact NOT what they believe, well that's no basis for discussion. That's just some mindless parrot using the forum for mindless parroting. Bringing 'facts' and figures into the discussion was a welcome event at that point.
The "Shroudies" strike again.
Like a horse race, it's a matter of opinion, with each side citing "experts" who have their own agenda.
Hear, Hear
There are differences in the weights one should give the "opinions" that are presented. Sorry, the "experts" on the sides of the skeptics you quote are working OUTSIDE of their fields of expertise (Tell me me, what exactly qualifies a BA in English Literature to critique people with multiple doctorates and specialties in identifying human blood in all its antecedents and gives him ANY gravitas at all?) and have never had their critiques published in any peer-reviewed scientific journals. The opinions I provide are from scientists, analyzing the shroud by applying science from WITHIN their fields of expertise, applying what they KNOW, and trying to find answers. If they cannot, they say so. What they find raises even more questions than answers.
Your very first question is and denigrating ad hominem attack... meant to diminish the value of the scientific work done in the minds of the people who are not familiar with the work. The scientists involved included Christians, Jews, agnostics, and even atheists... most of them entered with an open mind. Most went with the intent to falsify the Shroud. Talk a few measurements, find paint or other obvious evidence of pigments, make a report and go home. Job done... instead they did NOT find that.
Only McCrone claimed to have found it, but none of the other hundreds of scientists who have looked have found pigments. NONE. None of the various, very sophisticated equipment brought to bear has found what McCrone claims he saw with his microscopes and even his own electron Microscope department did NOT back up his claim until he forced them to re-write their report. You want to talk about an agenda? McCrone over the years changed his characterization of the Red Ochre no less than seven times... and in one report claimed it was red ochre that was developed in 1830! Absurd!
Incidentally, McCrone was not an official member of STURP. He was granted access to STURP samples as a courtesy under a specific contract which he violated by not publishing his findings in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, publishing instead in his own vanity magazine "The Microscopist", refused to return the samples which he started referring to as "my samples", and the samples had to be physically retrieved by STURP officials.
He told his own employees that he was "going to debunk the shroud by using only a light microscope" because he thought that the microscope was being left behind as a serious scientific instrument!
"Like a horse race, its a matter of opinion, with each side citing experts who have their own agenda."
As legendary Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter wrote, "It is a wise man who said that there is no greater inequality than the equal treatment of unequals."
That, IMO, is what you are doing. Those on "each side" are not equals.
One side is seeking to find the truth, even if it proves them wrong. The other side is closed-mindedly certain of its position, and has no interest in examining contrary evidence.
The second group are called "skeptics," although they are not skeptics at all. They are God-haters, burning with a abhorrent lust to disprove His existence and defame His followers.
Catholics and honest scientists do not wish to believe or say that the Shroud is genuine if it is not.
The God-haters are just seagull pseudoscientists: they flap in, make a bunch of noise, crap all over everything, and leave as much confusion as possible in their wake. After all, why bother with genuine inquiry when you already know the answer?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.


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My Barre3 Postnatal Workout VideoLauren Hartmann
Barre3 is an amazing workout that transforms women's bodies through a fusion of pilates, ballet and yoga.
Up until recently you had to head out to a studio to take these classes (which I have enjoyed myself), but now Barre3 creator Sadie Lincoln has made an online workout program – My Barre3 – that makes fitness accessible to busy moms and women who don't have time to get into the studio.
I've been doing it myself and am already noticing increased core strength!
Doing these online workouts usuallyrequires subscribing online (for which you pay a very affordable monthly fee), but Barre3 has offered to share a free video for you to try out along with a giveaway (make sure to go enter!)being hosted here on Babble in honor of Mother's Day.
Check out the Postnatal workout video after the jump!
Make sure to enter the giveaway for a free 3-month subscription to My Barre3 – everyone who enters will get a free 3-day trial!
Lauren Hartmann is the founder of The Little Things We Do, a blog about life and adventures in Portland Oregon. Follow her on Twitter and Facebook, or catch up on all of her posts here on Babble.
More Babbling…
- 9 Ways I'm Getting Back Into a Fitness Routine
- Sometimes You Just Have To Laugh
- The Three Month Sleep Regression

subset: commoncrawl


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Full CoverageWEATHER
Flyover constuction shuts down laneUPDATED 10:32 PM CDT Jul 09, 2013
Work on the Fayetteville flyover means some lanes of traffic will be shut down over the next five months.Video Transcript
HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, ONE LANE IS SHUT DOWN ON A MAJOR ROAD TO MAKE WAY FOR THE NEW FAYETTEVILLE FLYOVER. 40/29'S JOSH TAYLOR FINDS OUT HOW IT AFFECTS YOUR DRIVE. HE'S LIVE IN FAYETTEVILLE. TONIGHT AND TOMORROW FROM 8 PM TO 6 AM, THE RIGHT HAND LANE HEADING WESTBOUND FROM THE FULBRIGHT EXPRESSWAY WILL BE CLOSED. THIS IS PART OF THE FLYOVER CONSTRUCTION PROJECT TO ADD ONTO THE FULBRIGHT EXPRESSWAY, AND DRIVERS WILL HAVE TO SPEND THE NEXT SEVERAL MONTHS DEALING WITH DELAYS, OR FINDING NEW ROUTES. Chris Brown, Fayetteville Engineer: "for the most part, the contractor has been able to work out of the traffic way setting up all these new piers." BUT WORK CAN'T STAY OUT OF THE WAY FOREVER. THIS IS THE AREA ALONG THE FULBRIGHT EXPRESSWAY IN FAYETTEVILLE, WHERE ONE WESTBOUND LANE IS NOW SHUT DOWN, SLOWING TRAFFIC NEAR THE OLIVE GARDEN RESTAURANT. THE OVERNIGHT LANE CLOSURES ARE EXPECTED TO GO ON FOR THE NEXT FIVE MONTHS. THE GOOD NEWS THE LANE WILL REOPEN BEFORE MORNING RUSH HOUR. THIS MAN IS A BUSINESS OWNER WHO JUST MOVED TO FAYETTEVILLE FROM DALLAS SEVEN DAYS AGO, AND HE SAYS DESPITE ANY IRRITATION CONSTRUCTION MAY CAUSE, IT'S A GOOD THING IN THE LONG RUN. Ali Taktak, Fayetteville: "They're working on signs, working on roads, making them better, so that's the positive part. Yeah, it's different than Dallas. Dallas is a bigger city. We have a lot of construction there, so comparable to Dallas it's not a lot, but I think it's a positive thing. It's going to enhance the community here." THE CITY ENGINEER SAYS CONTRACTORS ARE TRYING TO STAY OUT OF YOUR WAY, SO BE SURE TO STAY OUT OF THEIRS AND SLOW DOWN WHEN YOU DRIVE IN THIS AREA. LIVE TONIGHT IN FAYETTEVILLE, JOSH TAYLOR, 40/29 NEWS. THE LANE CLOSURES IN FAYETTEVILLE ARE EXPECTED TO LAST ABOUT 150 DAYS.
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PARIS (FNS) -- A billion-dollar Internet plan, megamergers, massive global retail expansion -- Carrefour has staggering growth on its agenda. At a shareholders' meeting in late March, Daniel Bernard, Carrefour chairman and chief executive, discussed everything from the promising results of his group's merger last year with Promodes, another French hypermarket and supermarket chain, to its plans for the creation this year of a Carrefour Internet company, @Carrefour, which is to develop and ...
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Don't be surprised when you hear songs from Lou Reed's drag-queen-and-heroin phase used in holiday commercials for department stores and discount jewelry chains. In the days since the iconic rock pioneer's death this weekend, advertising firms and marketing departments have inundated Reed's publisher with requests for permission to use his work as theme music in television advertisements and marketing campaigns.
This doesn't happen every time a well-known musician passes away. You didn't hear a glut of Whitney Houston or Beastie Boys songs in TV commercials after Ms. Houston or Adam Yauch's deaths last year – yet those two sold way more records than Lou Reed ever did. Reed's posthumous revival in TV commercials is the result of two combined factors: the songs' publishing rights availability for commercial use and the humongous, notable spike in Lou Reed downloads on iTunes and Spotify in recent days.
The New York Post reports that music publisher SONY/ATV is overwhelmed with requests to use Lou Reed's songs in commercials since Reed died. "Sony/ATV holds the publishing rights to all of Reed's work, which has been shooting up the iTunes charts and dominating Spotify streams in the days since his death at 71 on Sunday," the Post reports.
The master rights to Reed's entire solo music library are owned by SONY/ATV, plus a significant portion (but not all) of the rights to Reed's previous band The Velvet Underground.
Lou Reed's 1972 single "Perfect Day" was recently used in a PlayStation 4 commercial and the trailer for "You're Next," a summer 2013 horror film release from Lionsgate. But you'll soon hear a perfect storm of Lou Reed music in a lot more commercials.
Fans who are outraged to hear Lou Reed's songs in advertisements should know that Reed himself consented to the deal and profited handsomely from this arrangement in his final years. When Lou Reed and SONY/ATV re-upped their rights deal last month, Reed's manager Tom Sarig said, "I look forward to working closely with the Sony/ATV Music Publishing team in taking Lou Reed's publishing catalog to never-before-reached heights and exposure around the world."
The old knock on Lou Reed is that he never sold any records. That's not entirely true. His 1989 release "New York" did go gold (500,000 copies sold) and so did his 1972 release "Transformer" – which only took 38 years and three reissues to hit that mark.
Reed's collaborator Brian Eno once supposedly joked that "the first Velvet Underground album only sold 10,000 copies, but everyone who bought it formed a band." The quote is technically inaccurate and the "The Velvet Underground and Nico" actually sold more like 50,000 copies before its early 1990s CD reissue.
That's still not a lot of records sold. But when you hear those songs 50,000 times in commercials this holiday season, it's going to seem like a lot.
This article is part of Allvoices' series on ad:tech, the largest, longest-running digital marketing and technology event. Check out allvoices.com/adtech for more of Allvoices' ad:tech coverage. This series is supported by ad:tech.


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He was once the richest man in Brazil, and boasted he would one day be the richest man in the world. But today Eike Batista is linked to a far less glamorous record – the most spectacular bankruptcy in Latin American history.
After last-minute bailout talks failed, his oil company OGX filed for bankruptcy protection on Wednesday night, putting the future of his entire empire – which includes steel, mining, real estate and a superport the size of Manhattan – in doubt.
The huge crash will also test the continent's debt markets and may even raise questions over Brazil's decade of economic boom,


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Mamacita says: Nightmare #3: When I did my student teaching, this poem was in the seventh grade literature book. I'd never seen it before, and it made a definite impression on me. I absolutely loved it, and I still love … Continue reading
Category Archives: poetry
Mamacita says: I don't think it's a coincidence that the children who grow up in households wherein there are no books are generally the kids who end up in the slow class at school. There are exceptions, of course, … Continue reading
Mamacita says: There are many poets whose works I love, although of course NOBODY loves everything that anyone does. You may apply that philosophy to every aspect of life. You're welcome. Sara Teasdale is a favorite of mine. Her poems … Continue reading
Mamacita says: The first day of 2014 finds us looking out at a green lawn with very confused crocus bulbs a few inches below, wondering if maybe they should take a chance and peek up and bloom a little early. … Continue reading
Mamacita says: I first heard this poem in high school literature. Tenth grade, sophomore year, in Mrs. Helen Chandler's class, she who taught Claude Akins, the Bedford Celebrity.. In retrospect, I know that we treated her dreadfully. She was quite … Continue reading
Mamacita says: I first encountered this poem when I was in the third grade in my favorite teen girl detective series – Judy Bolton, of course! (Nancy Drew is but a pale substitute. . . .) After the Bolton … Continue reading


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Diana Center
Mon, Oct 5, 2015, 8:04pm
Wed, May 6, 2015, 5:56pm
Updated: May 6 at 6:15 p.m. According to Barnard, the fire is now all clear.
Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 10:48am
The Governing Board at Barnard College announced in an updates newsletter on behalf of Barnard Student Life that newly approved, designated Barnard Banner Space—the 2nd floor lobby of the Diana Center—is now available for student clubs to hang banners.
Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 11:27am
In her weekly column, series blogger Rebecca Farley lends a platform to the university's unheard voices. This week, she sat down with the Diana Center, who, among other things, is in a serious relationship with NoCo.
Fri, Dec 5, 2014, 2:13am
"Power Collage" uses art as a means by which to examine social movements.
Fri, Dec 5, 2014, 2:08am
The CU Gospel Choir, after experiencing expansive growth over the last few years, will perform its largest concert ever on Saturday, Dec. 6.
Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 6:48am
Good morning, Columbia.
Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 3:14am
While the whiteboard has already been added in Altschul, renovations to the roof, which were scheduled to occur over the summer, have not yet begun.
Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 11:32pm
With study spaces, chill spaces, food, and a bedtime later than your roommate's, the Diana Center provides an excellent home away from dorm. Here's a bottom-to-top handy guide to the big red building:
Fri, Feb 28, 2014, 6:07am
Women's History Month, which starts March 7, will focus on what it means to be a woman and the intersections between womanhood and other identities.
Sep 21, 10:21pm 0
By Marisa Brown
Sep 21, 10:20pm 0


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It's been quite a while since my last mobile blog entry. In fact it's been a while since I posted any blog entry. Life has been busy juggling many things (nothing changes). One of which was a foot injury which set my training back and made me thoroughly miserable for a week or two. I'm now all mended and back running..yay! Sunday I'll be donning a santa suit with a bunch of colleagues from work and taking part in a 2 mile fun run around Dorchester. I'm looking forward to it as it should be a good giggle. After that though I need to knuckle back down to training for the bath half. I'm back up to roughly 15-20 miles a week but not sure if that's enough. I am also pursuing other activities though and have a swimming lesson booked in this weekend (eeek!)
The photo isn't running related really but I tend to take less snaps and run more these days (and the dark and the cold don't help on the photo front). This photo is more about bread. Since getting into running I've been way more concious about what I put into my body. Fuel is important. Good bread….Real bread is hard to come across. So I wanted to make my own. To make matters slightly more complicated I wanted to make sourdough bread (mostly cos of the flavour but also just out of fascinstion with the process). I had a head start in the form of a starter and advice from @ThePhoenixBaker in Weymouth but the toasted slice addorned with mackerel above is my second attempt. I'm very pleased (as were the girls). It's not as difficult as you'd think….give it a go.


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Link: Added by:
A timeline of Erik the Red.
Created by jonjon22
on Dec 16, 2010
Last updated: 12/21/10 at 07:54 AM
The Voyage of Erik Thorvaldsson has no followers yet. Be the first one to
Eric died in winter, by a plague.
Once Eric got home in 985, he started recruiting colonists. In 986, 25 ships set sail for Greenland. Only 14 made it.
Erik the Red arrived at the new land before winter. He spent the winter on an island called Eriksey (of course, named after himself). He spent the rest of the exile at Greenland.
Eric the Red was exiled for killing four men. Two men in one and two more in another. Eric decided to go on a voyage to find the land Gunnbjorn Olfsson saw. Eric heard about Olfsson from stories a fellow viking told him.
Erik the Red moved to Iceland when he was about 10. He moved to Iceland because his dad was exiled for killing a man.
Erik Thorvaldsson was born in Norway. He was called Erik the Red because he had red hair.


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Crago Lace Up
Mustard Nubuck
Derby Shoes by Pointer
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Lorinda v. Rufus Pettibone et. al.
View original image: Page 004
[missing figure]
November Term
And now on this day come Lori PettibonePettibone at of
Rufus PettiboneRufus Pettibone deceased and Michael Landford and
his wife and say that they are not guilty of said sup-
posed several trespasses & grievances & wrongs above laid to
their charge and of this they put themselves upon the
Country &c.
J SpaldingJ Spalding Atty
filed Nov 29th 1826
A GambleArchibald Gamble Clk


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The relationship between game programming and math
#1 Members - Reputation: 11
Posted 03 January 2012 - 12:25 PM
I am really worried about this, as right now my math skills are fine but ive only been programming for a week or two :-) Please advise!
I am really into this so far, so I am pleading to the gods that I wont run in to something I cant get help with through either a calculator or another programmer :S
#2 Members - Reputation: 1465
Posted 03 January 2012 - 12:52 PM
If you're not so hot in math, figure out what's bogging you down, and practice. You'll get better eventually. If you're doing an Algebra problem, what is it that you don't do good at? Do you not understand what to do with the variables? Do you mess up on arithmetics (adding, subtracting)? Nobody has "completely no idea" what they're doing. If you have absolutely no idea what you're doing, you need to start by learning how to add and subtract. Usually a person can understand the math but has a hard time connecting it to the problem that is being worked. It's really all I can say. Try to figure why you're not so good and fix it.
My personal links
- Khan Academy - For all your math needs
- Java API Documentation - For all your Java info needs
- C++ Standard Library Reference - For some of your C++ needs ^.^
#3 Members - Reputation: 877
Posted 03 January 2012 - 02:52 PM
Thing is you can learn anything you want as long as you set your mind to it.
Latest finished project Project
#4 Members - Reputation: 107
Posted 03 January 2012 - 03:54 PM
Understanding the syntax of a programming language and the semantics of the paradigm of your implementation makes you a great programmer. Although there are things you might have to implement with programming that requires math, physics for example.
There was very recently a kid (from Sweden, unless I'm mistaken) who wrote an iPhone application to summarize the information from various sites such as wikipedia, wolframalpha, etc. which was downloaded by several thousand people and which made their life simpler. And there's really not much math needed to append a string to another string or display it in a user-friendly way.
You do not need to understand math to become a programmer, and you do not need to understand the science of nutrition to become a bodybuilder.
#5 Crossbones+ - Reputation: 19698
Posted 03 January 2012 - 04:37 PM
You do not need to understand math to become a programmer, and you do not need to understand the science of nutrition to become a bodybuilder.
Although probably true, this is not a great analogy. Many of the best programmers around have strong Math backgrounds or at least great mathematical ability. It probably doesn't turn out to be that way with nutrition and bodybuilders.
Although you can be a decent programmer and have a very fulfilling career without understanding Math, there are certain parts of programming that you won't be able to delve into. Of the top of my head:
* Analysis of algorithm complexity
* Some areas in AI (Bayes networks, Hidden Markov Models...)
* Signal processing (e.g., audio and video compression)
* Physics simulation
* 3D graphics
You can probably learn enough to be a user of a library in any of those areas even if you don't know Math, but you will have to live with a superficial knowledge of what's really going on.
#6 Members - Reputation: 1465
Posted 03 January 2012 - 04:39 PM
Understanding the syntax of a programming language and the semantics of the paradigm of your implementation makes you a great programmer. Although there are things you might have to implement with programming that requires math, physics for example.
I think that's a gross oversimplification, but the question proposed was "do I need math for games programming," and since programming games is in large an implementation of algorithms and physics calculations, you will need to know math, however basic.
You do not need to understand math to become a programmer, and you do not need to understand the science of nutrition to become a bodybuilder.
You also don't need to know how your engine, transmission, or breaks operate in order to drive a car, but it certainly helps when your car breaks. Similarly, if you're implementing an algorithm and you're not quite sure what it's doing, you will probably have a hard time figuring out why it doesn't work the way it should.
But it is as you said. All in all, you probably won't need all that much math in the general programming field. It'll help from time to time, but you're not all that hard pressed for it. If you're doing game programming, I suggest to you strongly that you do make friends at least with Algebra. It will definitely help you.
My personal links
- Khan Academy - For all your math needs
- Java API Documentation - For all your Java info needs
- C++ Standard Library Reference - For some of your C++ needs ^.^
#7 Crossbones+ - Reputation: 3773
Posted 03 January 2012 - 04:52 PM
You also don't need to know how your engine, transmission, or breaks operate in order to drive a car, but it certainly helps when your car breaks.
Driving a car is different from fixing a car. Solving math problems vs programming problems or understanding abstract mathematical concepts vs abstract programming concepts are far more related. You might have issues programming not because you lack the math skills, but having weak math skills might be a symptom of what causes you issues programming...
That said, there's a number of game development tasks (even programming sort of tasks) that aren't that sort of hard problem solving sorts. Some involve a lot of story-telling sort of mental makeup. Just be aware of your strengths and weakenesses. Play to them.
#8 Members - Reputation: 434
Posted 03 January 2012 - 04:59 PM
You can program without math but programmers that do not understand the basics can be infuriating to work with. If you're only looking at this as a hobby, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Programming requires studying and, at some point, you'll run into a math problem that requires studying too. Cross that bridge when you get to it. If you want this to be a career, get a well-rounded education and study hard. Like I said, programming requires studying anyway. You'll always be facing things you need to learn. As a professional, you can't back down from a challenge. Taking math head-on will get you into an important habit.
Quit screwin' around! - Brock Samson
#9 Members - Reputation: 733
Posted 04 January 2012 - 06:09 AM
Im not so hot at math, in fact I took a refresher course in college to get my math skills up and didnt do so well at all, so im just wondering, how much can I do in game programming with a not to hot math knowlege? am I doing something here that is beyond me, seeing as math is something im not to hot at?
I am really worried about this, as right now my math skills are fine but ive only been programming for a week or two :-) Please advise!
I am really into this so far, so I am pleading to the gods that I wont run in to something I cant get help with through either a calculator or another programmer :S
There are some good bits of advice here. I'd like second a few opinions here and throw in my own. For starters, I don't think anyone has yet asked the necessary questions to get to the core of the issue.
- What kind of math refresher did you take in college? Was it basic arithmetic, differential equations, or something in between?
- What kind of games are you working on? This will largely determine the amount of math/physics/trig you'll need to know.
With respect to actually learning the math, boogyman19946 (implicitly) gave the best piece of advice here, in my opinion: a link to the Khan Academy in his signature. (http://www.khanacademy.org/)
On a final note, there's no need to get discouraged about developing games if you're math knowledge isn't so good. You don't necessarily need a bunch of math classes under your belt to program games. However, if you have haven't learned the math in school, you're going to need to learn things as you go along. In my experience, that means as you progress in your game projects, you'll need to occasionally stop and review or learn some math or physics subject to solve a particular problem.
This is what John Carmack (id Software) did. There was an interview with John Carmack a few months ago that I found pretty interesting. The transcript of the interview is here: http://pcper.com/reviews/Editorial/John-Carmack-Interview-GPU-Race-Intel-Graphics-Ray-Tracing-Voxels-and-more/Intervi The entire interview is pretty interesting, but at least check out the interviewer's first question; it's about math. This (for me) is the highlight of his answer: "...
knowing how to apply them to situations that weren't in the textbook and actually [knowing] how to use them for a problem that comes to you rather than something that's sitting down on a test, is what's really important."
#10 Members - Reputation: 113
Posted 04 January 2012 - 10:10 AM
When I started game development (which wasn't long ago) I had to take on linear algebra and dot product (I'm not english speaking so my math terms might be inaccurate) in order to make my bots move on a plane. Because of that, the math logic itself made sense to me and I actually learned it by myself. I'm not saying I'm good at math now obviously, but at least there's progress.
What I'm trying to say is that if you're considering game development as a hobby, don't be afraid of the math. Unless this is a phase I see no reason why you couldn't do it. There's opinions with regards to the requirements of math skills, but as far as I know there will be math involved no question about it. Just accept it. There's different degrees of depth of course.
Take it from me, who never liked math. You'll hate it for not working and you'll probably hate it even more as you delve into tougher subjects. Though once you get it, and you create something that works - the satisfaction is immense. Then again the same is also true for any programming language out there. Your eyes will bleed from documentations and books.
#11 Members - Reputation: 244
Posted 04 January 2012 - 01:15 PM
That being said, nobody with an avarage IQ is doomed to be bad at math, atleast not the way I see it. I don't believe as much in talent as most people. Although I am convinced genetics play a role, I think most of these skills including music, painting and indeed math, can simply be learned like any other skill by experience. And usually if you are required to know something because you'll need it for the programming, you can pick it up much faster just because you are interested and eager to learn.
#12 Members - Reputation: 11
Posted 04 January 2012 - 02:37 PM
I will reiderate, although I got the answer I needed... its easier when you have something to apply it to.
The class I was taking was litterally called pre-college level ath... I was put it preatty near the end and never really had to much trouble understanding the concepts, I had trouble with the underlying calculations of application, the actual multiplucation/division at the root of it over again until, yes, my eyes bled.
professionally im a cook. I work part time in a community kitchen and part time at a small cafe'/resturaunt and I enjoy my job almost to much... so yes, this is a hobby, and its a hobby I just started working on. what brought me to this question was my tutor running me through something called the "8 queens" problem, mabey some of you know of it, but the math really fuggered with my brain that night
I will learn what I need to, as I need to, no matter what, because games are my passion and I've wanted to make them since I first played mech warrior mercinaries and battlezone 1 (o the days =+) )
thank you, you'll be seeing more of me I promise!


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GNU/Linux can be scary to a new user. After all, what if you mess up? What if you end up corrupting your hard drive so badly that you need to format it to get rid of GNU/Linux? The solution is to use virtualization technology. A virtual machine creates a virtual hard drive as well as a virtual computer, so you can install and run it from within another operating system. If you want to get rid of the virtualized (also known as the guest) operating system, just delete the virtual hard disk from the real (host) computer's hard drive.
First, choose which virtualization tool to use. Right now, there are four big ones: Parallels, VMWare, QEMU, and VirtualBox. Parallels is commercial at US$49.99 for Windows and GNU/Linux. For me, that is way too expensive. That leaves us with VMWare, QEMU, and VirtualBox. VMWare has two freeware versions. One (called a player) runs pre-built operating systems (known as appliances). The other one (called a server) will make machines, but isn't as fast as the professional version. The problem with QEMU is that it is completely command-line (there are GUIs made for it, but they never worked for me). Therefore, it is extremely complicated to create a new virtual machine with it. Besides, it just can't do some basic things that the others can (like pause a virtual machine, for example). That leaves us with VirtualBox.
VirtualBox is free software. It is cross-platform (runs on Windows and GNU/Linux, with an Intel Mac version in beta). It runs Windows, OS/2, GNU/Linux, BSD, Netware, Solaris, and L4 guests. And on certain guests, you can install VirtualBox Guest Additions, which lets you share files and more between the guest and the host. The next version, coming soon, will include support for running the pre-built VMWare appliances [1]. It simply works.
Getting VirtualBox
Getting VirtualBox varies from platform to platform. There are binaries on the download site for Windows, Ubuntu 6.06-7.04, Debian 3.1-4.0, openSuSE 10.2, Mandriva 2007.1, Red Hat Enterprise 4, and the Univention Corporate Server 1.3-2. The SimplyMEPIS site has a guide to installing VirtualBox here. If you run Ubuntu or MEPIS, you can install Automatix, which will install VirtualBox for you. Lastly, there is also a generic installer for GNU/Linux on the download page. Unfortunately, there are two versions of VirtualBox: one is freeware and one is free software. These binaries are for the freeware version, rather than the free software version. For some reason, Innotek (the company behind VirtualBox) hasn't released open-source edition binaries. I'm not really sure why hackers haven't released any binaries using the source code (the exception is one by a Macintosh programmer, who created an unofficial free software OS X 10.4 binary here). However, I am sure binary versions of this fantastic piece of software will eventually appear for many different distributions.To compile, visit the Build_instructions page at the VirtualBox wiki. GNU/Linux and Windows are supported, with Macintosh OS X (Intel-only) and OS/2 in testing.
Setting up your first virtual machine
Now that VirtualBox is installed, create your first virtual machine. Your first guest will be the well-known Ubuntu. Download the 7.04 Desktop edition CD image here. When it finishes downloading, open VirtualBox (on GNU/Linux,
LD_LIBRARY_PATH=. ./VirtualBox, on Windows, run
VBoxSDL.exe in the folder you compiled it in).
Select the "New" button (or hit
Ctrl + N). A "New Machine Wizard" window should pop up (figure 1).
Click "Next". Then, type a name for the virtual machine (I typed Ubuntu). Choose Linux 2.6 (the standard for most modern Linux distros) for the OS type, then hit "Next". You will be asked how much memory to give. Choose 256MB. For most GNU/Linux distros, you'll need at least 256MB of RAM to be comfortable (you'll also need to make sure you have at least 512MB of total physical RAM and have all possible programs closed). Next, you will be confronted with an option to create a hard disk (figure 2).
Click "New", and yet another window opens. Click "Next". Now, you have an option to create a dynamically expanding image (hard drive) or fixed-size. Fixed size stays a certain size, while a dynamically expanding one gets bigger or smaller depending on what's on it. For now, choose dynamically expanding. The next dialog asks you how big you want the hard drive to pretend to be (actual size will vary as mentioned before). Choose 5GB. Next, make sure all details are correct, then click "Finish" to exit the virtual disk wizard. Hit "Next", confirm everything is correct, then "Finish" to exit the new machine wizard.
Now, click "Ubuntu" once, then click "Settings" (figure 3).
Select "CD/DVD-ROM". Then, check the "Mount CD/DVD Drive", select "ISO Image File", then click the folder icon. The Virtual Disk Manager will pop up. Click "Add", browse to the place where you saved the Ubuntu file, then highlight it and click "Open". Now, click "Select" to assign the Ubuntu CD to the Ubuntu virtual machine. You may also want to make sure the "Enable Audio" under the Audio section is checked, so your audio is working.
You are now ready. Click "Okay" and then double-click the "Ubuntu virtual machine". A new window should launch (figure 4).
Select "Start or Install Ubuntu", with the arrow keys, then hit "Enter". Clicking inside of the window will capture the mouse so you can use it in the virtual machine. To release it hit the right control (Ctrl) key. Wait for Ubuntu to load the desktop. Then, double-click on the "Install" icon. Select a language, then a city, then a keyboard layout, and give some personal info. When you are asked to prepare disk space, choose to erase the whole disk, then hit "Next". Verify everything is correct, then hit "Install". Wait for Ubuntu to finish installing (this will take a very long time). Then, restart when it prompts you to. It will tell you to remove the CD. Click the "Devices" menu at the top of the window, and click "Unmount CD/DVD-ROM". Then, hit "Enter". Ubuntu will finish restarting. Now, you are done! You can delete the CD image by taking the following steps: first stop the virtual machine by shutting it down (click the power button in the top right corner in Ubuntu). Then click on the Virtual Disk Manager ("File→Virtual Disk Manager" in the main VirtualBox window), then the CD/DVD Images tab, then click "Release", then "Remove". Then, delete the actual CD image.
More advanced usage
Now that Ubuntu is up and running, do some more advanced things with it. You can integrate the mouse (in other words, you won't have to keep hitting the right Ctrl key to release it) by installing Guest Additions. Guest Additions will also improve your video support and synchronize your time with the virtual machine's time. Here's how to install it: open the Ubuntu virtual machine, click "Devices" at the top of the window, and then "Install Guest Additions". Then go to "Accessories→Terminal", type
cd /media/cdrom0. Then type
sudo sh ./VBoxLinuxAdditions.run and hit "Enter". Follow the on screen instructions. Then, restart (hit the power icon in the top right corner). Now, the cursor isn't trapped inside the virtual machine!
Another powerful tool that VirtualBox offers is the pause feature. If you close the virtual machine, it will pop up a message asking whether to power off or save machine state. Powering off is the equivalent of unplugging the power cord to the virtual machine. Saving the virtual machine state basically pauses it. It is sort of like hibernating. When you open up a saved machine, it will automatically pick up from where it left off. This is particularly useful when you are installing a new operating system, and want to turn it off without messing up the install.
Where to go from here
Ubuntu isn't the only GNU/Linux distribution (or operating system) that VirtualBox can run. It can run Windows, SuSE, Linspire, and much more (see the Guest OSes page at the VirtualBox wiki for more). It's a great way to test out GNU/Linux distros before you install them for real. It's great for security: getting viruses in the virtual machine doesn't affect the host machine. And GNU/Linux users can run it and Windows at the same time without paying a cent. All in all, VirtualBox is a powerful program that is worth the download.


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UNTIL THE MUSIC STOPS: Holocene Holiday Party!
Optimo DJs (Glasgow)
Plus live set by:
Phone Call (members of Strength)
Phone Call (members of Strength)
This year, we're pleased to present a holiday gift to all of you: a FREE dance party with Glasgow's extraordinary DJ duo OPTIMO. Our own Nathan Detroit (of Booty Bassment) will warm things up, we'll feature a live set from Phone Call (the new dance-pop duo of Johnny and Bailey from Strength), and then this mega-talented pair will spin into the wee hours. Happy holidays, one and all.
9pm | FREE!
FREE with RSVP to firstname.lastname@example.com with your full name (only 2 names per e-mail, please). You must be on the guest list to enter this party!
Optimo (Espacio) is JD Twitch & JG Wilkes, who took their name from the eponymous Liquid Liquid song. They hosted Optimo (Espacio) every Sunday at the Sub Club in Glasgow, Scotland from 27 November 1997 - 25 April 2010. During the party's legendary tenure, they hosted such world-renowned artists as Cut Copy, Franz Ferdinand, The Rapture, Peaches, Liquid Liquid, LCD Soundsystem, Hot Chip, Richie Hawtin, The Long Blondes, TV on the Radio, The Go! Team and The Kills. The duo continue to tour, promote and release music as Optimo.


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Wells Fargo's Community Partners Giving Program is an annual program where each of its retail banking stores explores the needs of their local communities and selects a non-profit or school to receive a $1,000 grant. This year, the Hackettstown BID is the local recipient of this program.
"We are very grateful that a bank like Wells Fargo appreciates and acknowledges what the BID has been doing for the town," said Keith DeTombeur, president of Hackettstown BID. "Under Mr. Sheldon's leadership we have a lot more accomplished! We hope to have a great relationship going forward with Wells Fargo."
The grants are part of the company's broader support of its communities. In 2011, Wells Fargo invested more than $11 million in nonprofit organizations and schools.


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Oregon mental hospital to honor 'forgotten souls'
SALEM, Ore. -- They were dubbed the "forgotten souls" -- the cremated remains of thousands of people who came through the doors of Oregon's state mental hospital, died there and whose ashes were abandoned inside more than 3,500 copper urns.
Discovered a decade ago at the decrepit Oregon State Hospital, where "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" was filmed, the remains became a symbol of the state's -- and the nation's -- dark history of treating the mentally ill.
A research effort to unearth the stories of those who moved through the hospital's halls, and to reunite the remains with surviving relatives, takes center stage today as officials dedicate a memorial to those once-forgotten patients.
"No one wants to be laid to rest without some kind of acknowledgment that they were here, that they contributed, that they lived," said state Senate President Peter Courtney, who led a successful effort to replace the hospital and build the memorial.
Between 1913 and 1971, more than 5,300 people were cremated at the hospital.
Most were patients at the mental institution, but some died at local hospitals, the state tuberculosis hospital, a state penitentiary or the Fairview Training Center, where people with developmental disabilities were institutionalized.
Hospital officials have been working for years to reunite the remains of their former patients with surviving relatives. Since the urns were found by lawmakers on a tour of the hospital in 2005, 183 have been claimed.
The 3,409 that remain and have been identified are listed in a searchable online database. Thirty-eight urns will likely never be identified; they're unmarked, have duplicate numbers or aren't listed in ledgers of people cremated at the hospital.
Some stayed just days before they died, others for nearly their entire lives. They came from every state except Alaska and Hawaii. Nearly 1,000 were born in 44 countries. Five were born at sea.
Many of the 110 veterans still there will eventually receive proper military burials, though some are ineligible due to dishonorable discharges or insufficient information available.
Some patients spent a lifetime at the hospital for conditions like depression and bipolar disorder that, in modern times, are treated on an outpatient basis.
"At the time, they just put them in a safe place and treated them with what they knew to treat them," said Sharon Tucker, who led the two-year research project.


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Slang for Kronenbourg 1664.
"Pint of numbers and a packet of pork scratchings please, barman."
додав evilmango 15 Серпня 2005
Trending Now
Can you define these popular missing words?
Top Definition
A term for a joint.
Light that number, geez, I'm dyin for a toke.
додав Saucy 17 Серпня 2003
a drug order. how much you want of a certain drug or multiple drugs.
I texted my dealer numbers.
додав friendswithintervals 02 Вересня 2006
A rather brutal and secretive group of prison gangs in South Africa. Number gangs have numbers instead of names, and typically have millitary-style hierarchy, extensive tattoos, strict internal laws, and require violence against prison staff for initiation. The 28 Gang also has a system for distributing sex between new recruits and established members. Recently featured on a BBC documentary.
Numbers gangs include the 26s, 27s, 28s, etc...
додав gooberliberation 12 Березня 2006
Physical damage. To "do a number" in an aggressive situation frequently implies hurting someone, usually a particular body part. For example a number is used in the phrases "I'm going to pop you one" and "a quick one-two" (in boxing).
Rough him up a little, then do a number on his face.
додав Balfdor 13 Червня 2007
1. slang term for a woman
She's a saucy little number isn't she?
додав Bud E Love 05 Травня 2003
Short form for "phone number."
Joe: So what happened with you and that girl at the bar?
Sammy: I got her number!
Joe: Sweet, you'll be banging her in no time!
Sammy: I got her number!
Joe: Sweet, you'll be banging her in no time!
додав RexGibson 11 Березня 2004


text:
Important Global Message
The Miami-Dade County Emergency Operations Center has been activated and is closely monitoring Erika. For any updates about County facilities and services, please visit: http://www.miamidade.gov/emergency
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137 West Dade Connection
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Just returned from our 1st cruise with Royal Caribbean and had a wonderful time. The food was very good, we ate on my time dinning sometimes in the King and I and Windjammer, the food was very good in both but we enjoyed the Windjammer in the evening as there was a very good choice of meal etc. There is also a good choice of food and snacks, cakes from the spa area and the hotdogs are good on deck 9.
We had a balcony cabin on deck 6 (6086) Cabin was a good size with a balcony big enough for 2. No tea making or fridge. Was always kept clean.
We only did one trip and that was in Turkey, Split and mykonos are very nice places to just get off and walk about and have a drink in a bar.
We had the beer and wine package which was worth it for us as the drinks on there are dear if you like a drink or two, in the resturants and Windjammer they do keep your wine topped up or will get you a beer when needed. We found all the staff to be very friendly and helpful, the majority of them coming from Brazil.
The entertainment wasn't as good as we have had with NCL and PO, but would do another cruise with RCI.


text:
"Flight Pattern" cover illustration
June 5, 2013 § Leave a comment
Cover illustration for CITY Newspaper 5/5-11/2013 (http://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/).
"Thanksgiving: How to Cook it Well" (Sam Sifton)
October 23, 2012 § Leave a comment
After much anticipation, I am thrilled to announce the release of Sam Sifton's "Thanksgiving: How to Cook it Well". It was an honor to work with Sam on this project and it is truly an invaluable resource for perfecting your family's next Thanksgiving celebration.
Get your copy at bookstores near you, or amazon.
Prints will be available soon!
Chalkboard for Eastman School of Music.
August 23, 2012 § Leave a comment
August 16, 2012 § Leave a comment
Woven Society
January 12, 2012 § Leave a comment
Woven Society hasn't officially launched yet, but here is a teaser of some of the portraits I have been working on for them. Check out their facebook page and stay tuned for more!
Eleven Madison Park Granola
November 1, 2011 § Leave a comment
For the full article: Eleven Madison Park Granola
Coffee love
September 12, 2011 § Leave a comment