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"Vampire Diaries" Alum Confirmed to Play Savitar on "The Flash" S3
Comic Books, TV
COMIC LEGEND: Joe Madureira's final issue of Uncanny X-Men was partially drawn by another artist because some of Madureira's pages were lost by FedEx.
STATUS: False
Mixed into Joe Madureira's final issue of Uncanny X-Men…
Were a few pages drawn by Andy Smith instead…
This has led to a rumor over the years (I saw it first on G. Kendall's Not Blog X, by a commenter there) that Madureira's pages had been lost by FedEx.
We've certainly seen stranger stories over the years, like a whole final issue of a comic book lost in a cab! However, I checked with the editor of the issue, Mark Powers, and he said that the truth was a lot less interesting – Madureira was just late.
Thanks for the info, Mark!
Check out my latest Movie Legends Revealed at Spinoff Online: Was the beloved Star Wars novel, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, originally written as a possible low budget sequel to Star Wars if the first film did JUST well enough to get a cheap sequel approved?
On the next page, learn which member of Alpha Flight almost died at the hands of a super-serial killer!
That shot with Spider-Man zeroing in on Wolverine's skull and blasting him into the tombstone is one of the most powerful scenes ever….
Can't say I agree with the reasoning behind the finished version of the fight, but I can't argue with the final resort. A great fight! I've got to seek that comic out!
Wow. Christopher Priest really had a foot-long hard on for humiliating Spider-Man.
I'm dying to know who is the "loud voice" that convinced Jim Shooter not to let Spider-Man be curb-stomped.
Things I learned today: Spider-Man vs. Wolverine is the Schindler's List of "this guy vs. that guy" superhero comics.
This just reminds me of why I hate comic fight debates. Priest's point made total sense to me. He came up with a context where Peter could believably be overpowered and defeated, but got shouted down by some clown whining about how Peter is technically stronger.
So Joe Mad was mad late. Nothing new.
I wonder how many Spider-Man/X-Team cross-overs there have been?
Buttler –
Dude sure is humble, right? I mean, he could have compared his work to Citizen Kane…
But speaking of Orson Wells, there are some sort of parallel between this story and The Third Man. If they had removed Harry Lime being scum that doesn't care that children are poisoned and also changed the ending of the movie, that is. Wolverine is the cool anti-hero that is in his element in a dark European underworld, Spider-Man is the naive/wrong American who does nothing right the whole story and gets his ass kicked physically, emotionally, and morally.
This isn't just fights either. It's the same reason we've had 3 years of nonstop tired jokes about how Hawkeye and Black Widow are useless in the movies because they can't punch through steel. There's more ways to approach a problem in a superhero story than punching it in the face repeatedly, but people don't seem to get this.
That story is awesome, despite editorial meddling. One of my faves.
Rene— I'm willing to bet it was Tom DeFalco. He and Priest did not get along at all (partially because Priest had to constantly be on him about missed deadlines, partially other stuff), plus as writer of Amazing Spider-Man at the time SvW was being developed, DeFalco would have been likely to both object and to be listened to by Shooter.
I love SVW, everything works, the story is great and the art is top notch. It's a shame that it gets overlooked when talking about great comics.
I have always wondered if the SVW was supposed to be a Marvel Graphic Novel……It really came out of nowhere and being a double sized Prestige Paper book. With the "violence" depicted in the book, could it have been originally a GN, but the higher ups decided on a special issue?
One mystery solved, only to be replaced with another. I'm not familiar enough with who was on staff back then to make an educated guess as to who ' the voice' was.
The SvW story is really dark as it is. I understand Priest's frustration, as nobody likes to have to implementd changes which are unnecessary.
For his comfort though, for me, as a reader, the story does not suffer from it.
I like Priest, but this is just another example of his tendency to think in overly fanboyish terms. "See, Wolverine is uber-kewl. He lives in the dark, gritty, real world. Spider-Man's just a crayon-colored wimp. He's not gritty and real and stuff."
And, yeah, comparing Wolverine to something out of Schindler's List is just silly. Wolverine is every bit as unreal and comic-booky as Spider-Man, just in a different way.
Priest certainly has a humble opinion of his work, huh? Schindler's List, indeed.
I've always had a bad opinion of Christopher "I'm gonna steal the name of a successful novelist" Priest but now I dislike him even more.
Priest has a pretty healthy opinion of himself and his writing. I can sympathize, it's painful to have a story edited so drastically, but it wasn't Schindler's List by a long, long ways.
I remember that story, which I thought really mis-read both characters' personalities and powers. I thought Spidey was too weak and indecisive, and too scared of Wolverine. Priest made it seem as if he hadn't faces a real killer before, when he had not only faced killers but also wild animals and even the Lizard, a relentless monster with claws and fangs.
And the idea that Spidey couldn't even get Wolverine to stop smiling seemed way off. Just because you can't break someone's bones doesn't mean you aren't hurting them. Prior to this story, Wolverine had been hurt worse by weaker punches (this came just a year or two after the excellent Wolverine/Iron Fist fight in the last issue of IF, I think).
Now, reading what Priest was trying to accomplish, it makes more sense to me, but I still don't buy it. He didn't do a good job of selling his premise to the reader and it just comes off as a story by someone who doesn't know and doesn't like Spider-man.
Goblyn was an interesting character: the only autistic character in comics at the time and one of the only of all time; a different take on the idea of the Hulk; and a minor that was being put in dangerous situations. I always felt there was more to explore around that character. I think it would have been a shame to kill her off.
She's not being used by anyone now though – probably long forgotten!
In the pages of the Uncanny X-Men story, Psylocke refers to her first body as "a British marm", suggesting a dowdy appearance. That's far from how she was portrayed: in the British comics, she was a model before being recruited as an agent.
Interesting point that occurred to me around that: in one comic I have from the old UK run, Brian and Betsy meet after years of not seeing each other and almost don't recognize each other – he being all buff and muscular and she having a model look with her hair dyed purple. That's right: dyed purple – not actually purple. But in the US comics, her hair (in both bodies!) has been purple with no hint of it coming from a bottle.
I'm not sure how the original fight would have played out, but the fight shown is a bit laughable. Like Spider-Man has never faced any crazy person trying to kill him! What B.S., nearly every villain Spider-Man has fought to kill him! And I'm pretty damn sure Wolverine isn't strong enough to break Spider-Man's webs. Spidey could easily web the crap out of Wolverine until Wolverine is incapable of cutting himself free. The only way Wolverine ever beats Spider-Man is if he cuts him good (and I believe Wolverine is good enough to hit Spider-Man- Spidey is not un-hittable)
There's a lot wrong with that Wolverine vs Spider-Man fight. Maybe Wolverine's fast enough to hit Spidey, maybe not.My main issue is with a character that is established to be super strong, hitting Wolverine with his best shot, and it not concussing Wolverine nor does it knock him out. Wolverine at this point had been ko'd by much lesser impacts in Claremont's run. Now knowing Preist's back story about this comic, the whole thing comes off as kind of fan-fictiony.
Yeah, I agree with the three posts above.
Priest writes Spider-Man in this story as if he'd spent his whole career fighting harmless loonies like the villains in Batman '66, and now suddenly he'd been thrust into the "real world" that Wolverine is a personification of.
Uh, guys, I don't think Priest was literally saying his story was the super hero answer to Schindler's List. He was saying that the changes applied a more simplistic logic to a story that was intended to be a bit more complex and nuanced, using a rather extreme example.
It's striking to me that all of the comments seem to assume that editorial involvement or a team approach is a bad thing,as though comic book writers are auteurs with creative visions that should not be interested with by lesser minds (usually editors with more writing experience than the authors they ovesee).
Nu-D –
Not all comments, dude. I am pretty iffy about "Spider-Man vs. Wolverine". As thrilling and engaging as the story was, I think it was selling Spider-Man short. And according to Brian's legend featured here, if Priest had his way, it would have been even worse.
Considering how out of his way Priest/Owsley went at this point in time to undermind DeFalco in the Spider-books (killing Ned Leeds off in this comic primarily because he thought it would get a rise out of DeFalco), I'm kinda glad to learn he didn't get his way with this story, logic be damned. This is such a strange era for the Spider-office filled with some good stories that could have been all-time great ones if not for Priest's admitted immaturity as an editor.
I'm glad Priest was overruled. It's hilarious that Priest was criticizing somebody else for being "simplistic" when the idea of Spider-Man getting beat by an inferior opponent because he was "out of his element" had already been done to death.
Spider-Man has been ignoring his spider-sense since the days of Stan Lee. How many times over the years has he been tagged by normal humans because he was "sick" or "rattled" or "mad with rage" or because he just flat out ignored his own super-powers.
Writers dragging out that same tired excuse again and again to bring Spider-Man down to somebody else's level was old before Wolverine even existed. It wasn't new, original, or complex. It was lazy and boring.
Having read Priest's words, I wish the original version had seen print.
Matthew- "(this came just a year or two after the excellent Wolverine/Iron Fist fight in the last issue of IF, I think). "
A year or two? Sorry, try ten years. SPIDER-MAN VS. WOLVERINE came out in 1987; the last issue of IRON FIST, with the Wolverine fight, was in 1977.
Priest's concept of complex is very different from mine. As pointed out above, Spider-Man isn't anywhere near as clueless as Priest portrayed him. And Charlemagne seemed like a nasty piece of work, so I never felt much sympathy for her, or for Logan trying to help her.
ahh the wolverine spiderman mini that caused the whole the hobogoblin is suppose to be ned leeds mess. since priest seemed to have some issues with spiderman including that he would proably have spider man wind up having to prove wolverine wrong and kill him thus really destroying part of the character. and glad to know that joe was just late as happens with comics some time. including the time the x-men line up had a magnetoe clone and a guy whose guts were bugs that eat every thing. aka maggnot
Yeah, Kitt, I got that he didn't literally mean his work was as good as SL, and just comparing the gap in story complexity, but really SvW was just a good serious comic story, it wasn't really in any way a great treatise on the mental complexity of superhero confidence. It makes it sound like this was Spider-Man's Watchmen. I like the book, so I won't hate on it…except when they shoehorned the Hobgoblin stuff in because it screwed up the main storyline. He was frankly saved by the person he thinks is a child from putting out a more inconsistent storyline.
I thought pre-Siege Psylocke had made reference to her hair not being naturally purple…but I don't know that Asian Psylocke ever has.
And oof, that picture of the Sorcerer. He looks like he's 90 but still sporting the Superman briefs. It's like Adrian Toomes in a speedo.
Personally I'm on Team Spiderman.
This comic is the start of Wolverine jumping the shark and changing from an above average brawler/ beserker to Wolverine-God.
For someone who was editing the Spider-Man titles, Owsley / priest really did not appear to actually like the character.
Rene – I've read several accounts of what happened, including Jim Shooter's, Peter David's and Tom Defalco's, so I know that Tom Defalco was the loud voice. He was upset both because of the death of Ned Leeds, a major character in the flagship book he was writing, took place in a one-shot without his being consulted. Peter David claimed he asked Priest why he did it, and Priest said he did it just to piss DeFalco off.
In one of the accounts I read, maybe Shooter's, he claimed in the original version of the story that Spider-Man didn't just lose, he actually froze up in total fear and awe of Wolverine's ferocity and lost without even landing a punch. Priest's logic was that Wolverine was just so ferocious and awesome a killer that Spider-Man would realize that he had never in all his years fought anyone that dangerous and immediately realize he was out of his depth.
So according to whoever wrote the opposing account I read, again I can't remember who, it wasn't that DeFalco thought Spider-Man should be a Mary Sue or untouchable in a fight (because in DeFalco's own work that wasn't even the case) but that he thought Spider-Man shouldn't be utterly humiliated and frozen in fear that he couldn't even get off one punch.
I wish I could remember where I read the "frozen in fear and unable to throw a punch" story, but I can't.
This scene makes no sense on one level. Wolverine says Spider-Man could kill him if he used his superhuman strength to snap his neck. But it had been established well before this that every bone in Wolverine's body is encased in adamantium, an unbreakable metal. "Every bone" surely includes his neck bones. Even Thor can't break true adamantium, and he is far stronger than Spidey. So I give this scene an F for sticking to canon.
Uh, guys, I don't think Priest was literally saying his story was the super hero answer to Schindler's List. He was saying that the changes applied a more simplistic logic to a story that was intended to be a bit more complex and nuanced, using a rather extreme example.
I don't know how "Wolverine is so KeWL and BaDas$ and that he'd totally kick wimpy Spider-Man's ass cuz Spidey doesn't KILL!!!" is so complex and nuanced. If anything it's a cliched, adolescent idea. Making the fight more evenhanded and showing strengths and weaknesses of both characters (although it didn't show that much of Wolverine's weaknesses, even after it was rewritten) is far more complex and nuanced in my opinion.
Looking back I think the interview I am thinking of where people offer alternative versions to Priest's version of the dispute over Spider-Man/Wolverine was actually in Back Issue #35. I believe that's where it is said that Spider-Man not only loses but totally freezes up in fear over having never fought a foe as awesome as Wolverine. DeFalco's counterargument is that this was particularly silly because Spider-Man by then had met and even fought against Wolverine several times already.
I find the background of the Spider-Man/Wolverine book much more interesting than the actual story. I still find it incredible that the Spider-Man editor would derail a popular storyline in such a way. I think Priest/Owsley as described here, at least had an interesting idea, but it didn't come through to me as a reader either at the time, or now. Priest's reach exceeded his grasp here.It would have worked better as a graphic novel, with Ned leeds taken entirely out of the picture. As it was, it didn't seem like Peter, and it robbed the on-going book of a dramatic reveal.
On the positive side, it allowed Stern to reveal his real candidate years' later, so it has that going for it. And, the various behind the scene stories are fascinating.
I'd love to revisit this from Tom DeFalco's point of View, Brian.
Darth Weevil –
Good call, by the way. DeFalco makes sense as the "voice".
Funny thing is, I usually like Priest's work as a writer a lot more than I like DeFalco's. Despite Priest's tics, he can write an engaging story, while DeFalco leaves me cold, at best. But whenever I read about the off-stage politics of the time, Priest always comes across as much more of a bad guy.
I think DeFalco's call actually helped the story.
Scott – I'm VERY sure I've read DeFalco's version of this (I've read so many interviews about this era that they all kind of blur together). I'm not 100% sure where, but I think it may be Back Issue #35, as I mentioned earlier.
I seem to remember reading somewhere- maybe on Spideykicksbutt- that it was DeFalco who opposed the ending and it was because Priest had Spider-Man freeze because Spider-Man had never fought anyone as dangerous as Wolverine before, which DeFalco thought was idiotic. It's hard to dispute that- this wasn't this first time Spider-Man fought Wolverine.
Rene: The interesting thing is that Priest has written about how awful he was for the Spider-Man editor position—it was his first editorial gig and he was thrown in the deep end because no one else wanted to take it on. Plus, he got caught on the wrong side of office politics, as he was really close to Shooter when everyone hated him and he was soon to be ousted. Basically everything was stacked against him doing well in the position.
DeFalco's Amazing run has some pretty good moments, but there are a huge number of fill-ins. I tend to believe Priest's version of the DeFalco firing (Shooter approved and then back down after the fact, saying he never thought Priest would go through with it), but there probably is also something to DeFalco's complaint that Priest made it more difficult to be on time because of editorial indecision/changes. Basically, these two should never have been working together.
Speaking of DeFalco, im suddenly reminded of Steve Engelhart's parody of him in Silver Surfer: Clumsy Foulup, who manages to seize control of the Kree Empire after betraying his boss (Reptyl).
SPIDER-MAN VS. WOLVERINE always struck me as a pretty uninspired and somewhat boring story which displayed a fundamental lack of understanding of Spider-Man as a character.
Priest's underlying themes for the story are flawed to begin with. The whole "fish out of water" approach is pretty ludicrous when you consider that Spidey has not only been to loads of foreign countries, but he has also been to such exotic locations as outer space, alien planets, other dimensions, the Savage Land, and even the past and the future. He's also fought plenty of spies and secret agent types. So given all this, how exactly would going to Europe and getting caught up in cloak-and-dagger stuff throw his entire game off?
Priest's original plan for the referenced fight (Wolverine wins) AND the revised fight (it's a draw) both cater to the "Wolverine is uber awesome and everyone's kewlest character" mindet that was running rampant at the time, and which ultimately led to Wolverine practically becoming an immortal superhuman god and a much less interesting character. The whole concept that Spider-Man would be actually afraid of Wolverine is just dumb. Spider-Man had faced numerous enemies that were a lot more deadly, formidable, vicious, and merciless than Wolverine. The Spider-Man I am familiar with would leverage his superior speed and agility against an opponent like Wolverine – not go toe-to-toe within striking range of several admantium knives capable of cutting him to pieces. Also, Wolverine has a healing factor and an unbreakable skull, but he's not invulnerable. One good punch from someone at Spider-Man's strength level would put Wolverine down for the count, at least temporarily until his healing factor could repair the damage. An admantium skull wouldn't stop the severe concussion and/or severe brain damage that would result from a punch capable of demolishing a brick wall. File this battle under "the wrong side".
Perhaps the saddest part of this entire affair is that such an old and well-established member of Spidey's supporting cast as Ned Leeds was casually disposed of, with little or no fanfare, in support of a pretty forgettable story, and not even in Spidey's own book. To add insult to injury, he was later revealed to be the Hobgoblin until that ill advised idea was retconned. Poor Ned. He wasn't the most significant or memorable supporting cast member, but he deserved better than this, And how many of Spider-Man's friends and acquaintenaces are secretly super-villians anyways? Does he know anyone who is NOT a super villian?
This was a terrible, boring, and uninspired story that propped up Wolverine at the expense of marginalizing Spider-Man, and unnecessarily and casually killed a major supporting cast member. (But hey, it got a lot worse, the excesses and dive in quality of the 90's was right around the corner).
Oh, yes, speaking of Owsley / Priest's apparent contempt for the character whose books he was editing, I'm reminded of how he had Peter David write those two Spider-Man annuals featuring Ace. You know Ace, the Prince / Michael Jackson stand-in who was sooooo super-cool and who made Spider-Man look like a rank amateur over and over. Ace, who even stabbed Spider-Man with a trick retractable switchblade just to prove that he could have killed him if he'd really wanted to, saying that he just demonstrated that Spider-Man can't survive in his world of super-dangerous street gangs. Yeah, THAT Ace.
I happen to have enjoyed Priest's later work as a writer, especially on Black Panther. But I am extremely grateful that Priest never had Spider-Man show up in that series, because we would probably have gotten 22 consecutive pages of T'Challa totally pwning Spider-Man.
And let's not forget Priest was also the editor on that awful Web two-parter where Peter basically tells several attempted rapists "Go and rape no more".
Where does that maduiera wrap up rank on shortest all time in legends revealed?
Dont get me wrong if theres nothing to embelish why do it, just funny
I really lik e Priest as a writer, but whenever I read his site talking about old projects, he always made it sound like he had the great masterpiece that was ruined by somebody else. Weird. And now of course I see here for the first time that "Baywatch to Schindler's List" thing. Yikes, no. I like the idea he describes (and I've never really cared about the Wrong Side winning at all if the story was good)… but no.
Also, Scott: a broken neck isn't really about breaking bones. Spider-Man could definitely kill Wolverine with his bare hands, provided we're not talking about the immortal version that we ha a few years ago.
if we wanted to get really gruesome, Spider-Man could use his wall crawling power to stick to Wolvie's neck and just tear his throat out in that panel.
Which would of course be awful.
Joking aside, I don't know which version is worse. The Spider-Man who is a blithe idiot in this comic, or the Spider-Man in Wolfman's run who seemed to forget he had super powers, and would get his ass kicked by Sydney Greenstreet.
SVW felt always off to me…I liked the art, but it seemed to me as if Spidey was drugged.
Wolverine is faster, Spidey can't make out what he's saying, they gotta kill each other…
This reads like a Morrisson book. It tries to be different, to be edgy but makes no sense.
As far as I can remember Spidey accidentally kills the woman in question in the end. Ok, that was pretty memorable for a 12 year old. Then the Ned Leeds stuff that came out of nowhere.
Priest seems pretty full of himself, can't say I like the guy.
My first guess for the loud voice was Stan Lee.
But what's with Spidey can't be touched? Never heard about that and frankly it's a pretty stupid idea to begin with.
I'm not a huge fan of Spidey but it doesn't make any sense that he would be scared of Wolverine's supposed "savagery" when he's fought the Lizard who is physically more intimidating and outright ferocious wanting to rip out Spidey's throat with his teeth! Plus Spideys gone up against the likes of Hulk and Thanos but never "froze up." But he's intimidated by a short guy with claws? Really?
Goblyn was an interesting character: the only autistic character in comics at the time and one of the only of all time; a different take on the idea of the Hulk; and a minor that was being put in dangerous situations. I always felt there was more to explore around that character. I think it would have been a shame to kill her off.
Laura Dean, her twin sister was autistic but I think Goblyn was just a feral child due to growing up in the Dreamqueen's dimension. Laura had a portal power of her own, and she and Goblyn were both members of Alpha Flight as separate characters.
The story hasn't aged as well as it might, because Lara's autism is "cured" by the end and treated as a psychological illness caused by parental mistreatment rather than as neurological diversity. Charitably, I suppose it reflects the limited popular understanding of autism at the time of publication.
I always felt that this story helped kick off the Grim and Gritty Marvel Era. Less fun, more death.
Where does that maduiera wrap up rank on shortest all time in legends revealed?
Dont get me wrong if theres nothing to embelish why do it, just funny
Ha! I think there's been a few like that over the years, if the answer is just as simple as "no," then, yeah, whaddayagonnado?
@Ben Herman:
Oh, yes, speaking of Owsley / Priest's apparent contempt for the character whose books he was editing, I'm reminded of HOW HE HAD PETER DAVID write those two Spider-Man annuals featuring Ace. You know Ace, the Prince / Michael Jackson stand-in who was sooooo super-cool and who made Spider-Man look like a rank amateur over and over. Ace, who even stabbed Spider-Man with a trick retractable switchblade just to prove that he could have killed him if he'd really wanted to, saying that he just demonstrated that Spider-Man can't survive in his world of super-dangerous street gangs. Yeah, THAT Ace.
(emphasis mine). Do you have a source for the emphasized part, i.e. that David was specifically instructed to do the Ace stories? I've only heard that he was told to do something with Mark Beachum, who might've been Priest's friend or something, I can't recall. All these years I've been laying the blame for those terrible stories at Peter David's feet; it'd be interesting to know if the plots were dictated to him.
I loved Spidey vs Wolverine, even with it flaws. I considered the absolute pounding that Spidey gave to Wolverine to have been a great way of showing that Wolverine is beatable, at the time he was becoming the uber popular character that was beating everyone. Yes it had a flaw with the characterization of Peter as someone out of his depth with international intrigue, but I could live with that.
The story Priest wanted to tell, would have been atrocious. The only thing it would have done that made sense, is explained why Spiderman ended up killing Charlie. Since in Priest version he wasn't trusting his instincts, and after losing, he would have realized he wasn't trusting his instincts and would have maybe reacted the way he did in killing Charlie. But the version we got still worked on that level, mostly, although Spidey assuming that his senses was going off because of Wolverine after the fight, doesn't really go well the dialog(if I remember correctly) since both sides had declared a truce.
Spider-Man freezing up? Damn. I think Priest should get down on his knees and thank God that DeFalco intervened then. Because it sounds like DeFalco saved the story. As it is, SVW felt somewhat off, but it can be explained away as Spider-Man having one of those very bad days, and Wolverine having a very good day, and it's still a good story despite all that. But the way it was originally planned it would have been just silly.
And yeah, it sounds like this story is the prelude of Wolverine's getting his secondary mutation, and going from a Claremontian underdog to an invincible god.
Wow, Spider-Man was written MUCH more maturely a few decades ago. He had doubts, but was not such a self-loathing whiner. I really liked 80's (I'm assuming this is 80's) Spidey.
@Jamie: This comic is the start of Wolverine jumping the shark and changing from an above average brawler/ beserker to Wolverine-God.
Discounting, you know, the original Wolverine concept as somebody who can go toe-to-toe with the Hulk..
@T: DeFalco's counterargument is that this was particularly silly because Spider-Man by then had met and even fought against Wolverine several times already.
I suppose you can argue that A) in the previous encounters, Wolverine wasn't really trying to kill Spider-Man (in Secret Wars, he is just annoyed, while in SMvsW, he believes he's fighting for Charlie) or B) Spider-Man misreads the situation and Wolverine doesn't want to kill him in the cemetery either. After all, right after Spider-Man thinks Wolverine is out to kill him, he lets him tackle him. Luckily, Wolverine's claws have mysteriously retraced for that panel, so what should have been a lethal slash is now a friendly shove.
Rene – it's funny but it feels like down to the end Priest tried to do whatever he could to punk Spider-Man. Like given that this is the Marvel method probably rather than full script I imagine MD Bright had some say in how the fight was depicted. It seems like maybe he made it look too good for Spider-Man and he went in and made sure he tempered that with the dialogue as much as he could by loading it with scared, overwhelmed narration captions. Look at that scene for example where Spider-Man is pummelling Wolverine's head through the tombstone. As MD Bright drew it, Wolverine's face is clearly stunned. Priest must have saw that and said "Uh-oh, people might think Spider-Man is competent or may forget for a second that Wolvie is KeWLeSt" because he uses the dialogue to negate that one cool moment for Spider-Man by throwing in that he can't get Wolverine to stop smiling throughout the beating. So Spider-Man's best moment gets transformed via dialogue into Wolverine toying with Spider-Man out of amusement.
Omar, you're correct of course. Laura was listed as autistic, Goblyn was her twin. I guess my recall isn't as good as I thought.
It's a shame that her autism was replaced with PTSD – even worse that it was still described as autism – I thought the idea of an autistic character was more interesting than yet another PTSD survivor who's retreated from the world (which is not even a good parallel for autism).
Thanks for the clarification! Even though it's made me remember the character a _lot_ less fondly
Discounting, you know, the original Wolverine concept as somebody who can go toe-to-toe with the Hulk..
Yes, and gets knocked out by one "glancing blow" from the Hulk. That's not godlike status. Plenty of heroes have been able to survive glancing (not head-on) blows from the Hulk. Such a blow wouldn't know Wolverine-God unconscious today.
I really don't get the hate against Spider-Man vs Wolverine. It's all just "Your hero can't beat my hero" in more or less fancy clothes. Spider is stronger and under some circumstances, Wolvie can still hurt, defeat or kill him, just like Wolverine can be defeated by an old man with a stick – in the fist Wolverine limited series, which most Wolverine fans adore. I guess if it was a Spidey story, Spidey fans would hate it.
We accept this as Wolverine was confused, rejected by his love, drugged and tricked. Also, not long ago Wolverine was manipulated into killing an innocent ordinary man – who really was Mystique and the whole point of the story was to bring him to that point. I suppose I must be the odd one to like stories outside my fav character's comfort zone, instead of having him beat up everybody, but to each his own, I guess.
The scene is set in Brazil, they even SAY it's translated from portuguese… and there's spanish everywhere. Wtf?
Inner Circle –
Major difference: Wolverine rises to the occasion and proves himself by the end of the Wolverine mini. I guess fans would have reacted differently if the story ended with Wolvie coming back to the USA like a whipped dog, rumminating about how Mariko's father was so much better and cooler than him.
Also, Chris Claremont really can sell it, when his characters are defeated by "lesser" foes and then have to get their shit together to prevail. Christopher Priest, by comparision, often had Spider-Man embarassed by Wolverine, Daredevil, a frikking Michael Jackson cosplayer, whoever, and the story ends with… that is it. Spider-Man punked.
I really don't have a problem with Wolverine beating Spider-Man, by the way. Wolverine is supposed to be tough and resourceful. But Spider-Man depicted as a coward that never faced real danger before is just off. He's been facing death since he was 15. There were ways to depict him as uncomfortable with the situation without completely derailing the character.
All I can say is, whoever the big, bad EIC was at the time (Shooter I think), I'm glad he ruled the way they did. This comic came out at a time when Wolverine's popularity was exploding, and Spidey was, well, not as cool. While I appreciated the quality of the writing and art, and I liked the Charlie character, it's pretty clear one of the the main goals was to get over how bad-ass and cool Logan was, and how weak a character Peter Parker was by comparison. Now to hear that this was how the co-creators of this comic wanted the end fight to go, it just reinforces that belief.
So Peter never experienced a world quite like this and he's a fish out of water. Fine, all of that is well and good, but he's been in thousands of dangerous situations and had watched people die since he was a teenager, yet he survived to be a reasonably well-adjusted adult. A couple of reasons for this are his resiliency and strength of character, both of which have been well-documented through previous stories, but that this story ignored all together. Sure it would have made sense to see Peter grappling with what he's experiencing, but for most of this story, he's reduced to a blubbering mess, incapable of even defending himself. That's not the Spider-Man readers know and love.
On the flip side, Logan gets to look awesome all the way through. He's depicted in the best way possible completely in keeping with the character his fans know and love. The relationship with Charlie was also really interesting, and saved this comic from being a completely wash for me. If they made this a solo Wolverine adventure, I would have thought much better of it. Frankly, it makes me wonder if the co-creators were forced somehow to make Spidey a part of it, and they responded by crapping all over him.
As I said, I'm glad Shooter had the fight at the very least end on a stalemate. The idea that they wanted to end it with Spidey being completely ineffectual and getting his ass handed to him would have made me tear that comic up and throw it away. And I'm sure a lot of other readers would have felt the same way.
@Inner Circle,
"Discounting, you know, the original Wolverine concept as somebody who can go toe-to-toe with the Hulk.."
Except he really didn't. Go back and read his original fight with the Hulk.in INCREDIBLE HULK 181, he never really hurts the Hulk.
Re: Autistic characters. There was another autistic character in later issues of New Universe's Psi-Force at around the same time as Laura Dean (though she came first and lasted longer), Johnny Do/Dehman Doosha, a Russian pyrokinetic kid who was rescued and adopted by one of the main characters. Like Laura, IIRC it was written somewhat like a lot of his problem was due to abuse and a lifetime of isolation and, although he wasn't cured, he did speak by the end of the series' run thanks to good surrogate fatherhood.
But in all honesty, those two characters were how I first learned about autism at all, and I think they were well-intentioned if nothing else.
T:". I believe that's where it is said that Spider-Man not only loses but totally freezes up in fear over having never fought a foe as awesome as Wolverine. DeFalco's counterargument is that this was particularly silly because Spider-Man by then had met and even fought against Wolverine several times already."
Others have already commented on this, but, really, that has got to be one of the silliest ideas of all time.By this point in his career, Spidey has fought crazed monsters like The Lizard, Man-Wolf, and Morbius the living vampire.He's fought super-powerful bruisers like the Rhino and the Sandman. He's gone up against vicious mob-bosses like the Kingpin and Silvermane. Heck, he's even taken on European terrorists before (cf AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 95, way back in 1971, where he fights terrorists in London). And then there was the time he went to North Africa and tangled with international spies (AMAZING SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL 5).
Spider-man is way stronger than this. Even "punching hard enough to wreck cars" would be him pulling his punches, if I'm not mistaken. He could have just thrown Wolverine away, a few blocks if he wanted.
Wolverine could take Spidey on, if it's well written (as comic fights should be), but never in a straight brawl, he's just not on Spider-man's level, strength or speed wise. Actually kinda like Captain America vs Soider-man, but Cap has the fighting ability. Which Wolverine does too, considering his samurai training. But a straight out brawl – nah. And that would apply even sans spider-sense.
I totally agree that the idea of Spidey freezing up was stupid. Maybe if it was a story set just after Peter became Spider-man, ok, fine. But how is Wolverine more intimidating than the Rhino, Scorpion, Green Goblin or Doc Oc? Never mind the Lizard, as has been pointed out.
@Ananias Dare: My point exactly, as Hulk didn't hurt him either. He lands a punch when Wolverine is distracted and later, Wolverine is extracted from the fight when his time to bring the Hulk in is up.
"Back off kid. This is too deep for you." "Here it comes" along with some other lines that suddenly transform Wolverine into a "never-understood" teenager; and Spider Man being written as if he is in his first days, as well as substantially depowered; are quite prime examples of the sort of childish writing of those days in mainstream comics, not quality writing. The cringe factor in those lines is overwhelming! And the stupidity factor acts as if it's trying to rival the former in strength. Wolverine may be the best at what he does, but that is being a guy that knows a lot about combat, has heightened senses, an improved healing factor, some claws, and really tough bones. None of those things make him any credible threat to someone of Spider Man's level of power, the same way special forces operatives, despite all their training and capabilities aren't impervious to bullets and shrapnel. This story should have come with a billboard for the obsession to make a "edgy" story about how "cool Wolverine" is in expense of Spider Man, because "screw Spider Man, that Marvel poster boy, he will never get us brooding folks". It's such a failure of a gritty story when compared to some actually good ones of the kind, it's like a parody.
"Goblyn was an interesting character… She's not being used by anyone now though – probably long forgotten!"
Not by me. I even named my cat after her.
"Omar, you're correct of course. Laura was listed as autistic, Goblyn was her twin. I guess my recall isn't as good as I thought."
To be fair, they were originally treated as if they were the same character, as if they were transforming. It was only a while later that the whole real story was revealed.
@Kit Walker:
"I don't think Priest was literally saying his story was the super hero answer to Schindler's List."
"And oof, that picture of the Sorcerer. He looks like he's 90 but still sporting the Superman briefs. It's like Adrian Toomes in a speedo."
Thanks for the mental picture!
John Calimee's art on AF was… not the best. He's come onto AlphaFlight.net and said that he wasn't ready to draw a team book at the time.
His style is much better now, though (he posted some more recent pictures in the interview).
Drithien –
What I do find interesting about SVW is that it has shades of a proto-Garth Ennis story. There is a "clown in tights" that proves himself to be completelly innefective when he has to face something "real". There is a cooler anti-hero that is comfortable in that realer world. The anti-hero completely dominates the clown.
It's almost a sort of meta-commentary on genre. The equivalent of saying that conventional superheroes suck, gritty spies rule.
It's strange, because the only way such a story should work in a honest way is if the superhero stepped into a portal and moved to our world and there he'd found himself less effective because our world follow other rules. Sort of like the movie LAST ACTION HERO.
But the Germany in this story is the Germany of the Marvel Universe, Spider-Man facing killers and spies there shouldn't be that different from Spider-Man facing HYDRA in New York City. The whole universe Spider-Man and Wolverine inhabit follows superhero rules. So the vast experience Spider-Man has amassed in his career should still hold.
Something else that was bad was that Priest also did a sequel of sorts to this story in Web of Spider-Man.
In that one Wolverine comes to NYC to see Peter after the events of this issue. I thought at first it was going to be a role reversal where Wolverine would find out he was out of his depth in Spider-Man's world of gang wars and the mob and realize he didn't quite get the rules of Spider-Man's world any more than Spider-Man understood the rules of international espionage.
No such luck. Peter came off as an inexperienced kid next to the cool, grizzled old man Wolverine. Wolverine keeps cracking jokes at Pete's expense, Pete is exasperated and playing catch up and Wolverine is a fish out of water in Spider-Man's world but in a way that's not flattering to Spider-Man….he acts as if Spider-Man's world is a corny and confusing circus of weirdos. You get the impression that he's not at all impressed with the environment Spider-Man deals with and finds his world comical and amateur hour.
So when Spider-Man is the fish out of water in Wolvie's world, it's clear Wolverine and his world are cooler and more deadly. When Wolverine is the first out of water in Spidey's world, it's clear Wolverine and his world are cooler and more deadly.
Also insulting was a father-son type pep talk Wolverine gave Spidey telling him he wasn't responsible for Charlie's death. Somehow that was like insult to injury to me. Especially because if Wolverine just worked with Spider-Man as an equal instead of shutting him out all along and getting into fights with him, Charlie may have lived, so if anything he is as responsible for Charlie's death as Spider-Man is. Having him condescend to sit Peter on his lap and "forgive" him for Charlie's death made me want to retch.
@Inner Circle- in Hulk 181 Wolverine's reflexes allow a glancing blow from the Hulk to make him loopy rather than outright kill him (along with adamantium skull). That story makes clear his claws do nothing to Wolverine, and Wolverine's lucky he doesn't get killed by the Hulk. The whole point is giving Wolverine credit for not quiting even though he has no chance, not that they're in any way equal. That it's presented like that in latter stories was the change, and problem. The Wolverine mini-series was consistent with the character at the time. He was basically Daredevil with metal bones and could heal from injuries a lot faster, but not be saved from being killed because of it. In those street level heroes class, not the Hulk's.
To add to Tony, neck vertebrae aren't fused; you can turn your head. It's breaking the spinal cord that can be done, and is the problem.
It wasn't Stern, but I thought DeFalco's Spider-Man run was excellent, probably his best work. And when you just read the story and find out the leading candidate for the Hobgoblin WAS a red herring and that killed him off in a shocker you thought it was a brilliant master plan. Later when you find out there was no plan whatsoever and it was just a big FU between creators the mess it turned into later made sense. DeFalco was certainly no saint, but comes off looking great compared to Priest/Owlsley/whatever he's going by today. (Is it any doubt any dude with multiple names has issues?)
Hulk #181 is problematic, both for Wolverine's defenders and accusers in those discusions, because Len Wein had a very different idea of Wolverine's powers when he introduced the character. Wolverine was supposed to have Spider-Man level strength, durability and agility. No healing factor, and the claws were in his gloves.
THAT Wolverine had more of a fighting chance against the Hulk and consequently against Spider-Man too. He WAS Spider-Man, but with no webs.
Claremont changed his powers and made him much less of a powerhouse. Claremont's Wolverine could still take Spidey, IMO, but he had to sweat. Priest's story inverts things, with Spidey struggling to contain Logan. And obviously, Claremont's Wolverine could never take the Hulk head on.
I've always loved Spider-Man vs. Wolverine. It was such an unusual and dark Spider-Man story. He's in a foreign country, off-balance and unsure of himself. That's demonstrated just by the graveyard setting of that fight alone, which just added to the whole unsettling vibe of the story. (Plus, it was way back before Wolverine's ends-vs-means personality hadn't become so overblown and cliched.)
But something else I like about it is how it set the stage for Kraven's Last Hunt, which began several months later and is perhaps my all-time favorite comics story. Ned Leeds is one of the "ghosts" Peter sees while drugged by Kraven in the first issue. SVW clearly laid the foundation for one of KLH's central themes–Peter's very real mortality and fear of death. The inner monologue and frank admission "I'm afraid to die" would be right at home in KVH. I know SVW and KLH were written by two different people, but it can't be coincidence that they share similarities this way.
Rene- It's even more complicated than that, since in Claremont's earlier stories, Claremont's own idea of Wolverine's powers was clearly changing constantly. Compare the scene in X-MEN #98 where Wolverine easily busts out of his metal bonds with the scene in issue 111 where he has to strain very hard to break free. I don't think Claremont's idea of Wolverine's powers and skills really solidified until sometime after Byrne started working on the series. In the pre-Byrne Claremont/Cockrum issues, Wolverine comes across as more powerful but less competent.
As for SVW, yeah, the way Spidey suddenly acted like an incompetent amateur didn't make any sense at all, given everything he had seen and done in his career up to that point. On the other hand, I never liked the way he was sometimes treated as impossible to hit in a fight during the '80s- it made his fights a little too easy on the whole- he should be difficult to hit, but some writers during that time were taking that to an extreme, as being completely unhittable, just as certain writers were treating Captain America as completely unbeatable, and Reed Richards as being infallible, at the same time. To me, those trends made it harder to sympathize with those characters, just as Wolverine's increasing uber-ness made him harder to sympathize with. Spider-Man should take a hit now and then, Captain America should (temporarily) lose the occasional fight, Reed should occasionally be wrong, Wolverine should sometimes find himself over his head. To me, it makes both the stories and the characters more interesting.
@Rene: but Spidey doesn't for a minute think Wolvie his better. He doesn't even give a shit about him once they part ways, he's focused on Charlie. As for bringing a closure to the story, that happened a few issues later in ASM when he first learned the identity of the Hobgoblin, defeated him, decided to remain Spider-Man (with some, erm, help from the Black Cat) and finally engaging Mary Jane (which was quick after the aforementioned, erm, help). All this required Spidey to be really messed up at the end of SMvsW, but that was only halfway through the story.
And I as a Wolvie fan certainly never thought the story portrayed him as better. If "more comfortable after killing scores of people" would make anybody better, Nazi death camp guards would be the kewlest characters around.
Inner Circle –
"but Spidey doesn't for a minute think Wolvie his better. He doesn't even give a shit about him once they part ways, he's focused on Charlie."
Of course he thinks Wolverine is his better. He is in awe of Wolverine for much of the story. He may not like the feeling, though.
But I agree with you that Spider-Man has some closure. With Wolverine appearing again for the infamous pep talk, like T. describes.
"If "more comfortable after killing scores of people" would make anybody better, Nazi death camp guards would be the kewlest characters around."
But that is using real world logic. Yes, I don't think killers and gangsters are cool. I don't think revenge is a sweet thing. I don't think winning a fight makes one cooler or better than the one who lost it. But movies and comics can all portray those things, through the magic of storytelling that, at least for the time you're experiencing the story, can make you think A, when actually B is real.
While, in real life, I don't think any gangster is ever cool or grandiose, In the fictional world of the Godfather and Goodfellas, they are cool and grandiose, no matter how much real life logic we try to slap on them. A movie that actually aligns with my real life view on gangsters? An Italian movie called Gomorrah.
Another example. Revenge is a repugnant thing, that is my real world conviction. But I still thrill and root for the Bride in Kill Bill, the movie is built in a way that puts us in the position to root for her, despite a few scenes that take us out of this revenge thrill momentarily, like with Vernita Green's daughter. However, Almodovar's The Skin I Live In is a movie that portrays revenge as a crazy, evil, repugnant thing that only brings grief to all. It aligns with my real world views.
The story invites us to admire Wolverine, his prowess, his experience. We can keep telling ourselves that what Wolverine does is not nice while we read the story, but it's left to the reader the job of constantly doing that and rowing against the tide. It's not like some kid in the story is let down by Wolverine and realizes that Logan sucks as a human being, it's not like Spider-Man's nonviolence ends up saving the day, it's not like Spidey manages to take some action that makes Charlie want to live and repent her ways, quite the opposite, he is the schmuck that ends up killing her. His good guy-ness and non-killing ways are not ever shown as effective inside this story.
When you remember you own this comic and it was shiny, im gonna have to dig this out for reminiscing purposes!
The reference to Peter as an inexperiecned teenager in one of the comments made me remember that the Lee/Ditko run actually has Spidey hit with a dose of reality when he runs up against Doc Ock for the first time, right after patting himself on the back that he's pretty much invincible. Only in that story he learns from his defeat and comes back stronger, which obviously wasn't an approach that interested Priest.
I'm actually a bit surprised that it would be DeFalco given how much of a hands-off EiC he was. I can understand him being pissed (especially about the Ned Leeds thing since he and the other Spider-Writers at the time weren't even given a heads-up about it), but based on what I've read about professional style the rationale offered surprises me. Especially given that Preist refers to the unnamed individual as being, "a particularly loud voice who kept arguing that Wolverine could never land a glove on Spider-Man. This was the simplistic, Crayola colorforms through-line of thought this particular voice was famous for, and it was a way of thinking that totally worked against the complex story we were telling." That doesn't much sound like DeFalco to me. My first instinct was that, despite suggesting that it came down to the EiC, it was Shooter himself who was the insistent voice and that he forced the title's immediate editor (Ann Nocienti) to change things. Everything I've read about where Shooter was at the time this was being produced paints him as highly micromanaging, meddling more-and-more in creative content, extremely narrow in his perception of how the characters should behave and what they should do, and increasingly unstable in his battles with both the publishing owners he reported to and his own staff. Sean Howe's "Marvel Comics: The Untold Story" also presents an image of DeFalco during this era as somebody who was steadfastly loyal as an intermediary between Shooter and virtually everybody else at Marvel, and willing to throw himself under the bus as Shooter's mouthpiece. Perhaps those accounts are unfair, but they made Shooter seem the most likely candidate to me, and while I would believe DeFalco would make the case on Shooter's behalf, given their respective track records both before and after with respect to dealing with other creators and their attitudes to how characters were handled and written this more convoluted scenario actually strikes me as more likely.
In any case I wonder if Spidey being beaten by Wolverine would still have led to the story ending where it is Peter who actually lands the killing blow that he was trying to prevent? If not the ending we ended up with may be far more effective in maintaining the theme of Spider-Man being in over his head than the original effort.
I don't see how that plays in. Unless getting over inexperience once means it for all time. Frankly it sounds like a lot of people just don't like the assertion of Spider-Man losing to Wolverine.
Never read the story myself, so I have no opinion on the actual story. That said, I've been a Spiderman fan since I started reading comics. I have no problem with him losing fights, he actually loses alot and comes back to save the day! I think the issue is HOW he's depicted. Despite all the "Darn my Parker luck!" He's really an optimist, so I think that's what people may have a problem with. And all the wolverine fans… Pixie could beat him by teleporting him into a volcano. 'Nuff said
Honestly, I don't mind any character beating any other, as long as it's composed well.
Having Wolverine take multiple shots to his noggin' from Spider-Man "not holding back", is a poor choice of occurrence, for the way that Wolverine was portrayed at the time.
There's a way to do this battle and have it make way more sense. Also, I'd rather read a story where Wolverine overcomes competent Spider-Man, rather than this rube.
"I can't get him to stop smiling"
I love that line.
@ Rene: Well, Spidey repeatedly says he considers Wolvie a maniac, a madman, somebody that should be locked away etc. – that's more like "shock" than "awe" in my book The only scene when he truly is humbled is the restaurant, but that's nothing serious. In fact, HE looked down on Wolverine and Charlie and realized he shouldn't have, that's all.
But OK, I see your point about gangsters and vengeance portrayed as positives. Let's look at it from another point of view. I read a novel set in immediate post-WWII Soviet Union where the protagonist met a family on the train. The father introduced his wife and their children, and explained they had a smaller girl who unfortunately starved in the siege of Leningrad. He added that of course he could have given more food to her, but then he himself would have starved and he could not have gathered food for the family, leading to ALL dying. The protagonist and the company good-naturedly murmur agreement at this then-everyday story.
The book is fiction but the scenario was very real for thousands. None of us could bear to see their child starve, I'm sure, but that's here and now. After a year of siege on less and less food and seeing the family starve and being powerless to stop it, I think most of us would do as the father and save whoever he could, sacrifying whom he must. But we really wouldn't be the same person afterwards. Spider-Man would never let a child starve (not even others), and if he would, he wouldn't be "he Spider-Man we know anymore. (See the "What if?" story diverging from Spider-Man vs. Wolverine. To make up for Charlie's death, Spidey follows Wolvie even deeper into the underworld and he is changer forever.)
Wolvierine is different to Spidey as he was forced to reach this stage before. Parts of his personality is indeed cool and awe-inspiring, but for his ruthlessness, he is to be pitied. And he knows this as well – when he saw Lady Deathstrike turned into a cyborg killing machine, he freaked out at her throwing away her humanity, while he would give almost anything if he could reclaim his.
(Sorry for the late reply.)
Inner Circle –
I agree with your take on Spider-Man and Wolverine, and their respective personalities and stories, but I don't think SPIDER-MAN VS. WOLVERINE, as written, presents Wolverine as someone to be pitied. Spider-Man comes out of it as a child that has much to learn, with an unrealistic view as to how the world functions, and honestly as kind of sheltered self-righteous noob.
You're telling me that a guy that does not kill ever is not a noob, he is admirable. I agree. You agree. But Christopher Priest does not seem to agree.
@ T: The "freezes up in fear" and so on quotes you were seeking may be from the 'Spiderman creators interviewed' book whose precise title & author escapes me at the moment.
Peter Sanderson may've been the author, maybe not.
DeFalco was one of those interviewed, plus those from Silver, Bronze Ages, etc, such as Lee, Conway…
You're telling me that a guy that does not kill ever is not a noob, he is admirable. I agree. You agree. But Christopher Priest does not seem to agree.
Yes. It's a problem I have with Priest's writing in general. He often seems to either write noble characters as chumps, or he takes a formerly noble character and has to dirty them up a bit and give them an edge in order to write them with respect. In fact I read an interview from the time that said that Priest was supposed to become the regular writer on Web of Spider-Man and one of his plans was to make Spider-Man a grimmer and grittier character. I think all of his stories where he was a rube and a patsy were meant to set up the stage for his darkening journey.
Seems like this either is or was the central debate in superhero comics- Continuity or good story? Story might be better if Spider-Man is a clueless naif. Continuity says Spider-Man is not a clueless naif. It is possible, but increasingly difficult, to create a good story that accounts for all continuity. Absolute dedication to continuity will probably prevent some good stories being written, which is bad. But without the previous continuity that caused people to care about and identify with these characters in the first place, would anyone care about your story? Might as well say 'go and watch 'the Third Man.' It's better.' But probably better to take some risk than never write a story with that character again.
Certainly a delicate balancing act.
It's one thing to say Spider-Man might be out of his element, off-stride, slower to respond than usual and otherwise primed to be beaten by a foe who is strong, feral, and possesses a lust for killing.
It's another thing to say Wolverine is the foe that makes Spider-Man react that way.
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Hearing set on Vt. state hospital in BerlinNovember 13,2012MONTPELIER The centerpiece of Vermonts newly designed mental health system is up for a public hearing this coming week.
Closure of the old Vermont State Hospital in Waterbury by flooding from Tropical Storm Irene forced the state to come with a new plan to care for the mentally ill.
Its been developing a system that would include small psychiatric units in several different parts of the state, plus a 25-bed facility in Berlin.
The Berlin facility now is working on getting a permit called a certificate of need from the state Department of Financial Regulation.
DFR will conduct a hearing on the application Friday at 1:30 p.m. in the third floor conference room of 89 Main Street in Montpelier.MORE IN Vermont NewsWATERBURY Five years after Tropical Storm Irene hit the state, an artist from Waterbury recalls... Full StoryThe Vermont State Labor Council AFL-CIO has endorsed the Democratic slate of statewide candidates... Full StoryIt is not dumping. It is not a spill. ... Full Story
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Your Views
Little Red Hen and the arena
It's interesting how, occasionally, life imitates art. In this case, the children's story of "The Little Red Hen" with Milwaukee County taking the lead role and with the very whisper of a downtown arena having the surrounding counties fill in the supporting roles of the story.
A new arena is simply in the talking stages, but already Racine, Ozaukee and Waukesha counties are rushing to approve resolutions that would oppose any regional tax to support a Milwaukee arena. However, as the Little Red Hen knows, the people from the surrounding counties will most certainly be at the head of the line for any event held at the arena when it's built.
Somehow, Milwaukee is good enough to visit for dining, parks, entertainment, sports or events such as Summerfest, but not good enough to garner support for the venues the people of this region enjoy. It's too bad we can't follow the Little Red Hen's lead and keep the arena for those who will help build it.
Jack M. Heck
Redistricting reform needed
The Journal Sentinel and many other media outlets in Wisconsin are absolutely right in calling for action on pending state legislation to place the task of redistricting in the hands of the nonpartisan Legislative Reference Bureau ("Let people be heard: Approve referendum on redistricting," Our View, Dec. 4).
Right now, that important process is in the hands of the politicians who have a vested interest in the outcome.
As a member of the Wisconsin Senate in the 1970s and 1980s, I was appointed to a bipartisan Senate Special Committee on Redistricting after the 1980 census. There was bipartisan agreement that there should be a bipartisan plan for redistricting. Unfortunately, no such plan materialized because each party tried to advance its own political interests.
Allowing legislators to draw up their own districts is a bipartisan sham. When Democrats are in power, they draw up maps to protect their incumbents and try to advance their political control in the Legislature. When Republicans are in power, they do the same thing.
It's time to reform the process of redistricting so that legislative districts are compact, comprised of a "community of interest," devoid of unnecessary divisions of municipalities and protective of the rights of minorities. The blatantly partisan system we have right now is an affront to good government.
Dan Theno
Former state senator
Republican, 25th Senate District
Green Bay
Obamacare's reforms are significant
A bit defensively, columnist Christian Schneider says the GOP has offered health care reform alternatives to the Affordable Care Act that are better plans ("Yes, the GOP has a plan," Crossroads, Dec. 8). Yet the GOP plans he touts do nothing to address two problems in the private health insurance market that were addressed by the act.
First, the act eliminated pre-existing conditions, which kept some people from obtaining coverage and was a basis for denying coverage if claims arose. Second, the act prohibits lifetime dollar limits on benefits and phases out annual dollar limits on benefits. Nothing in the GOP plans Schneider mentions would address either of these glaring deficiencies.
Much is being made of the troubled rollout of the act, some of it deserved and much of it crassly political. But politics is inherently a short-term game. In the longer term, the reforms of the private health insurance market that are part of the act will come to be seen as the most significant feature of the act because they increase access to health insurance and enhance the safety net that health insurance should provide.
These reforms are currently understated and under-appreciated. These reforms are nowhere to be found in the GOP plans.
Mark Pollack
Fox Point
Kudos for Journal Sentinel
I'd like to take a moment to commend the Journal Sentinel. As an octogenarian with many years readership with the Journal Sentinel, I detect a welcome shift over the last two years directed more toward an investigative style of reporting that is informative and equally a valuable community service.
Just as noteworthy is an even-handedness in political coverage in recent days as opposed to the bias to the far left of center in the not-too-distant past. This is as ought to be with a Pulitzer Prize-winning newspaper.
Progress is progress, yet the Facebook and Twitter style conversation of the present era can never replace the companionship of a prize-winning newspaper with my morning coffee.
Jim Gardner
West Bend
Fines for misplaced license stickers
Glad to hear I'm not the only one "Annoyed by license plates" (Your Views, Dec. 7).
Here is a thought: The state keeps talking about budget issues and losing revenue due to people driving fewer miles and/or driving more fuel-efficient vehicles. Start fining people for putting the sticker where it doesn't belong, covering the sticker with plate trim frames or smoked covers. No warnings, they know they are doing wrong.
Not only that; charge them for a replacement sticker to be put where it belongs. May have to pay someone to remove the poorly placed stickers.
Richard Schires
South Milwaukee
Across the Board
The Journal Sentinel Editorial Board's blog on the day's happenings as they happen.


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STOCKTON - A Stockton man was sentenced Monday to life in prison for murdering an 18-year-old mother, and the judge piled on more time for the killer's fleeting escape last year from the Courthouse in downtown Stockton.
A jury found Richard Potts, 29, guilty of first-degree murder plus the special circumstances of kidnapping and rape in the death of Jessyca Arro, whose body was left on levee rocks in 2006 at Windmill Cove, west of Stockton.
DNA in semen recovered from her body and cell phone records linked Potts to the crime. San Joaquin County Superior Court Judge Terrence Van Oss, who oversaw the trial and sentenced Potts, described the murder as "cruel and sadistic."
Dawn Arro, the victim's mother, read a statement in court, saying Jessyca Arro's young son, who was not in court, knows that Potts killed his mother.
"Your honor, Kristofer Holste is only 5 years old, but he knows (Potts) should never get out of prison for what he did," Dawn Arro said. "She will forever be the queen of Kristofer's heart."
For the killing, Potts received a prison sentence of life without the possibility of parole. He had served a previous prison sentence on a manslaughter conviction for killing another girl before Arro's death. On top of that, Van Oss sentenced Potts to 11 years, four months in prison for Potts' brazen escape May 27, 2008, from the Courthouse. He tried to carjack a woman, but civilians subdued him a couple of blocks away.
"It seems like the defendant is preying on members of this community," San Joaquin County Deputy District Attorney Valli Israels said. Before the sentencing, Potts tried to persuade the judge to give him a new trial and a new attorney. Van Oss denied those motions.
Contact reporter Scott Smith at (209) 546-8296 or email@example.com.
Location, ST | website.com


text:
- Report: #695675
Report - Rebuttal - Arbitrate
Complaint Review: Williams Litigation Center
Williams Litigation Center756 South Broadway, Suiet 1113, Los Angeles, CA 90 Los Angeles, California United States of America
Williams Litigation Center Rick Nellson, Sarah St. John, and Erin Richards-Fuentes I can't believe I was riped-off!! all I needed was a little help to keep a roof over my kids head! Los Angeles, California
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This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 02/15/2011 12:57 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Williams-Litigation-Center/Los-Angeles-California-90014/Williams-Litigation-Center-Rick-Nellson-Sarah-St-John-and-Erin-Richards-Fuentes-I-cant-695675. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.
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text:
Pacquiao Back on Nov. 23 in Macau - Rios or Alvarado
By Rick Reeno
Michael Koncz, the adviser to eight division world champion Manny Pacquiao (54-5-2, 38KOs), has advised BoxingScene.com that his fighter will return on November 24th in Macua, China. It will be Pacquiao's first overseas fight since he decisioned Oscar Larios over twelve rounds in June of 2006 in Metro Manila. The opponent has yet to be decided.
"I don't want to put my hand on table [and reveal the frontrunner] because people are going to demand more money. We are definitely fighting in November, on November 24th [November 23 in the United States] and it's definitely in Macau. As to an opponent, we are still working on that and that's why I'm here in Vegas. I will be going to back to the Philippines next week, more for the elections than boxing but I am in contact with Manny every day or every other day," Koncz told BoxingScene.com.
The two opponents in the running for the HBO Pay-Per-View event Mike Alvarado (34-1, 23 KOs) and Brandon Rios (31-1-1, 23 KOs). Koncz indicates the pay-per-view would be staged at a local time which falls in the line with the traditional start time for most major boxing pay-per-views. In terms of the preference, Koncz says either fighter will be perfect.
"I think Rios and Alvarado, both of their styles make for perfect opponents so it really doesn't matter to me which one. I think it's question of which one is not going to overprice themselves," Koncz said.
[QUOTE=Big Dunn;13321104]Ive said a hundred times IMO he is innocent until proven guilty. That said to let his promoter float the needles story-while he had tattoos, trying to negotiate a cutoff, him not suing atlas when he said manny and…Comment by Evol on 05-03-2013
[QUOTE=Fetta;13321100]HAHAHA!!! Thats what you come back with? I already wrote that you were going to think this. Doesnt matter if its on front page or not fact is its there and came out today to try build Pac back up.…Comment by TLC8 on 05-03-2013
No brainer.... Alvarado beat up Rios, you take out Alvarado. Let Rios go redeem himself and beat someone like Zab Judah, or Provo from Russia, to get hiimself back in the mix.Comment by DeadLikeMe on 05-03-2013
The difference between Pac and Zhou is vast...Pac is a borderline ATG and still an elite fighter...it will take 1000x more effort to make Zhou a ppv attraction than it took to make Pac one. Pac was actually talented.Comment by WESS on 05-03-2013
lol damn this kitty cats career has really gone down hill like I said it would years ago.Post a Comment - View More User Comments (111)


text:
At Europe big customers who sold devices, get new Nokia lumia 920 supply on some area instantly even at same day.....
Sentiment: Strong Buy
I can't really believe that, sorry. I think Nokia has some serious issues with suppy.
u ar the shorty guy complain about nokia in china. u should go in my ignore list.


text:
For 7 years, British Columbia has had a resoundingly successful carbon tax. Maybe we should have one too. https://t.co/dtxEXgFfgT
Welcome to The TerraPass Footprint
Months ago we asked you for suggestions for a new name for the blog.
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text:
- 10
- 6
- See all features
Three nights for the price of two during the period 24/05/16 - 31/08/16 excluding School holidays and Long weekends.
Popular holiday property with glorious northerly waterviews over Hardys Bay. Features a screened outdoor living area, modern kitchen with gas cooktop & dishwasher, reverse cycle air conditioning, TV, video and CD player. Bedding configuration comprises one queen and two singles upstairs, one queen, one single and one trilogy downstairs with no internal access. Bathroom: Upstairs has shower, bath and W/C. An extra toilet and shower in laundry downstairs.
Please note - Linen is not included
Hardys Bay is just 1.5 hours from Sydney and is surrounded by national park so it is very peaceful and beautiful and quite secluded from the rest of the Central Coast. Putty Beach at Killcare has a patrolled swimming area and is also popular for surfing, snorkelling and fishing. A wonderful rock pool is located just near the surf club which features a cafe, restaurant and popular wedding venue. In Hardys Bay you can hire boats, play tennis or just enjoy the wonderful cafes and restaurants and peaceful water views. There are many great walks in the area and if you feel like exploring, the Central Coast has many activities on offer. Bells at Killcare and Killcare Surf Club offer popular wedding venues and are just up the road so Stunning Waterviews on the Bay offers perfect accommodation for wedding guests.
1 Car Spaces
- Suitability
- Non-Smoking, Children welcome
- Entertainment and Family
- Living room
- Kitchen and Dining
- Kitchen, Microwave, Dishwasher, Dining
- Heating and Cooling
- Ceiling fan


text:
Geographic Areas Used to Adjust Physician Payments for Variation in Practice Costs Should Be Revised
GAO-07-466: Published: Jun 29, 2007. Publicly Released: Jul 30, 2007.
Additional Materials:
- Highlights Page:
- Full Report:
- Accessible Text:
(202) 512-3000
Office of Public Affairs
(202) 512-4800
The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) adjusts Medicare physician fees for geographic differences in the costs of operating a medical practice. CMS uses 89 physician payment localities among which fees are adjusted. Concerns have been raised that the boundaries of some payment localities do not accurately address variations in physicians' costs. GAO was asked to examine how CMS has revised the localities; the extent to which they accurately reflect variations in physicians' costs; and alternative approaches to constructing the localities. To do so, GAO reviewed selected Federal Register documents; compared data on the costs physicians incur in different areas with the Medicare geographic adjustment; and used the physician cost data to construct and evaluate alternative approaches.
The current 89 physician payment localities are primarily consolidations of the 240 localities that Medicare carriers--CMS contractors responsible for processing physician claims--established in 1966. Since then, CMS has revised the payment localities using three different approaches that were not uniformly applied. From 1992 through 1995, CMS permitted state medical associations to petition to consolidate into a statewide locality if the state's physicians demonstrated "overwhelming support" for the change. In 1997, CMS revised the 28 states with multiple payment localities using two approaches: CMS consolidated carrier-defined localities in 25 states and created entirely new localities in 3 states. More than half of the current physician payment localities had counties within them with a large payment difference--that is, a payment difference of 5 percent or more between GAO's measure of physicians' costs and Medicare's geographic adjustment for an area. These 447 counties--representing 14 percent of all counties--were located across the United States, but a disproportionate number were located in California, Georgia, Minnesota, Ohio, and Virginia. Large payment differences occur because certain localities combine counties with different costs, which may be due to several factors. For example, although substantial population growth has occurred in certain areas, potentially leading to increased costs, CMS has not revised the payment localities in accordance with these changes. Many alternative approaches could be used to revise the geographic boundaries of the current payment localities. GAO identified three possible approaches that would improve payment accuracy while generally imposing a minimal amount of additional administrative burden on CMS, Medicare carriers, and physicians. One approach, for example, would improve payment accuracy, the extent to which each approach accurately measures variations in physicians' costs, by 52 percent over the current localities.
Recommendations for Executive Action
Status: Closed - Not Implemented
Comments: CMS officials said they had evaluated and discussed recommendations from the Institute of Medicine (IOM) in the 2013 Physician Fee Schedule Final Rule to base the Medicare physician fee schedule localities on Metropolitan Statistical Areas (MSA). The IOM analysis found that adopting an MSA-based locality structure under the physician fee schedule would result in payment reduction for approximately half of all US counties, particularly rural areas. CMS officials said they agreed with the IOM assessment and had concerns about adopting any national locality reconfiguration that would significantly increase the number of localities. Specifically, they said increasing the number of localities would result in a significant payment reduction for rural areas, as their cost of operating a medical practice would not longer be grouped with higher cost urbanized areas. As a result, CMS officals said they did not believe that the locality structure should be changed.
Recommendation: To help ensure that Medicare's payments to physicians more accurately reflect geographic differences in physicians' costs of operating a private medical practice, the Administrator of CMS should examine and revise the physician payment localities using an approach that is uniformly applied to all states and based on the most current data.
Agency Affected: Department of Health and Human Services: Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services
Status: Closed - Not Implemented
Comments: As of June 2011, CMS had not changed its physician payment localities consistent with GAO's recommendations. CMS non-concurred with the recommendation in the original report and indicated in June 2011 followup that the agency has no further comments. Specifically, CMS noted that the agency considers payment locality issues as concerns are raised by interested parties and otherwise as they determine necessary. CMS believes this approach is more flexible and efficient than conducting a review every 10 years.
Recommendation: To help ensure that Medicare's payments to physicians more accurately reflect geographic differences in physicians' costs of operating a private medical practice, the Administrator of CMS should examine and, if necessary, update the physician payment localities on a periodic basis with no more than 10 years between updates.
Agency Affected: Department of Health and Human Services: Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services
Explore the full database of GAO's Open Recommendations »
Aug 26, 2016
Medicare Part B:Data on Coupon Discounts Needed to Evaluate Methodology for Setting Drug Payment RatesGAO-16-643: Published: Jul 27, 2016. Publicly Released: Aug 26, 2016.
Aug 5, 2016
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act:Information on Approval Process for State Innovation WaiversGAO-16-637R: Published: Jul 6, 2016. Publicly Released: Aug 5, 2016.
Aug 1, 2016
Medicare Part B:CMS Should Take Additional Steps to Verify Accuracy of Data Used to Set Payment Rates for DrugsGAO-16-594: Published: Jul 1, 2016. Publicly Released: Aug 1, 2016.
Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting:Existing Federal Efforts to Increase Awareness Should Be ImprovedGAO-16-645: Published: Jun 30, 2016. Publicly Released: Aug 1, 2016.
Hospital Uncompensated Care:Federal Action Needed to Better Align Payments with CostsGAO-16-568: Published: Jun 30, 2016. Publicly Released: Aug 1, 2016.
Jul 7, 2016
Drug Shortages:Certain Factors Are Strongly Associated with This Persistent Public Health ChallengeGAO-16-595: Published: Jul 7, 2016. Publicly Released: Jul 7, 2016.
Jun 23, 2016
Defense Health Care:Availability and Quality Measurement of Women's Health Care Services in U.S. Military HospitalsGAO-16-596: Published: Jun 23, 2016. Publicly Released: Jun 23, 2016.
Jun 20, 2016
Federal Autism Activities:Agencies Are Encouraging Early Identification and Providing Services, and Recent Actions Could Improve CoordinationGAO-16-446: Published: May 20, 2016. Publicly Released: Jun 20, 2016.
Jun 15, 2016
Food and Drug Administration:Comprehensive Strategic Planning Needed to Enhance Coordination between Medical Product CentersGAO-16-500: Published: May 16, 2016. Publicly Released: Jun 15, 2016.
Medical Product Oversight:FDA Needs More Strategic Planning to Guide Its Scientific InitiativesGAO-16-432: Published: May 16, 2016. Publicly Released: Jun 15, 2016.
Looking for more? Browse all our products here


text:
I added about 100 categories, then realized I meant for them to be tags.
Well, I COULD have used the "category to tag" converter, but I didn't. I know, I know. I manually checked all my categories and deleted them... or so I thought.
So it has to leave at least one category as the default. The problem is, it says I have 23 categories, but only one is showing!
How can I get access to these categories so I can delete them? I want to delete them because they aren't showing anywhere, and I want to recreate about 5 of them, but the names are already taken it says.
Please help. Thanks.


text:
17 Austral Terrace Malvern SA 5061
- Sold for
$1,140,000Need a home loan? Just crunching the numbers for you...
- 4
- 2
- 1
David Cocks
- 0418 812 181
- 0418 812 181
- View profile
Cocksauld Real Estate - Unley (RLA 196492)
139 King William RoadUnley, SA 5061
17 Austral Terrace Malvern
Classic 1920's sandstone family home superbly renovated and extended in 2010
Situated in this most sought after city fringe location this stylish character family home has loads of accommodation for the active family.
There are 4 large bedrooms, the main with well appointed ensuite bathroom and walk-in robe. The main bathroom is equally well appointed and there is a guest's powder room with 3rd toilet.
The front versatile living room with large box window has large double doors opening from the wide entrance hall.
Moving out the back the 2010 extensions are huge, incorporating the main bedroom suite and the large open plan kitchen / family room area with lovely spotted gum timber flooring.
The family room has 2 sets of commercial grade cafe doors opening out to the spacious 4 seasons terrace ideal for alfresco dining and entertaining. Situated on a lovely North/South allotment of 728sqm approx.
This is a very complete family home with extensive renovations just completed. This is a very genuine sale as the owners are moving overseas.
Property No. 109427271
Page Visits: 2,396
- General Features
- Property Type:House
- Bedrooms:4
- Bathrooms:2
- Outdoor Features
- Carport Spaces:1
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text:
- Address: Frauenplatz 1, Munich 80331, Germany
- Hours: Sat - Thurs: 7am - 7pm, Fri: 7am - 6pm
- Admission: Free
Cathedral of Our Blessed Lady (Frauenkirche)
Which landmark particularly stands out in Munich's skyline? That would be the Cathedral of Our Blessed Lady or Frauenkirche, the church featuring two onion-shaped domes on top of twin towers that reach 99 meters (325 feet). But it's not just the church's architecture that makes it stand out, by law no other tower can be taller or obstruct the view of this symbolic Bavarian building.
Near the entrance of the catherdal is the famous "devil's footprint". According to legend, the devil stomped his foot at this spot when he thought the architect had forgotten to put any windows in the church, before realizing the illusion. Enjoy panoramic views from the south tower and the art of Erasmus Grasser, Jan Polack, and Hans Krumpper that decorate the interior of Frauenkirche.
Practical Info
Located just off the bustling Marienplatz, the Frauenkirche also regularly holds Catholic services in addition to being a tourist hotspot. Another interesting part of Frauenkirche is the crypt containing many important members of the Bavarian ruling Wittelsbach family, most notably the black tomb of Emporer Ludwig VI, one of the treasures that was luckily saved from the bombings in 1945.
Tours & Tickets
Munich City Hop-on Hop-off Tour
Explore Munich with a 24h or 48h ticket aboard an open-top double-decker bus. See all the main sights as you hop on and hop off at conveniently located stops ... Read more
Location: Munich, Germany
Duration: Varies
Private Tour: Munich Sightseeing Including Andechs Monastery
Famous for its beautiful architecture and Bavarian charm, and renowned for its annual Oktoberfest, Munich has much to offer any visitor. On this private ... Read more
Location: Munich, Germany
Duration: 5 hours (approx.)
Munich Super Saver: Brewery and Beer Tour plus Express Hop-On Hop-Off Tour
Experience the best of Munich – from top attractions to its legendary beer – with this Munich Super Saver that combines two tours at a discounted price! Spend ... Read more
Location: Munich, Germany
Duration: 1 day (approx.)
Munich Day Trip from Frankfurt
Explore the vibrant Bavarian city of Munich on a relaxing day trip from Frankfurt! You'll travel by luxury coach to Munich, where you'll enjoy a guided ... Read more
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Duration: 14 hours (approx.)
Munich Traditional Bavarian Culture, Beer And Food Tour Including Traditional Bavarian Dress
Enjoy a relaxing 5-hour beer and food tour through the historic center of Munich with a Bavarian guide. Experience the Bavarian culture at its best from up ... Read more
Location: Munich, Germany
Duration: 5 hours (approx.)


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2001 Ford Mustang Deluxe 2dr Convertible (3.8L 6cyl 5M)
I am the original owner of my '01 convertible and I am extremely impressed with the build quality. Other than scheduled fluid changes I have not had a single issue. The car starts everytime, it is fun to drive and for what it is (an entry level sports car) I am a very satisfied customer. Having owned a '95 coupe this car is superior in every way. I have modified the car with dual exhaust /w GT bumper, hood & side scoops, a fibreglass front bumper, tires & rims, welded sub-frame connectors, strut tower brace, pedal kit, and new air intake.
Stereo /w 6-disc in-dash changer, style, quality, suspension, styling
Before dealing with the power issue I recommend you upgrade the brakes and suspension. A new rear end is also a good idea with sport gears (3.73 or 4.10). Be careful with any engine upgrades because if done incorrectly you will blow the head gaskets/seals and the engine will never be the same again
This car has given me no trouble whatever. It has taken a lot of abuse from my son, and has kept on ticking. I'm very impressed with its performance, and toughness. For the money, it's the finest car I've seen.
Convertible top works great with no maintenance. Handling is good.
I think they have made them in '05. Except that I like the interior design of mine better than the '05.
I purchased this '01 Mustang with 44K miles already logged. Mileage is now 68K with only one tune up and a change of disk brakes pads. Very reliable, averages 23mpg all the time. Convertible top is very easy to operate. Great fun economical car. Looks fast sitting still. :-)
My ford mustang was purchased pre-owned
and has not given my any problems yet.
My mustang is fun to drive and is very
reliable. The durability is also great
compared to a more compact size car.
The black convertible top with the
black intereior leather look great with
the white exterior paint and the black
the convertible V6 although has the
same horsepower as the coupe does not
seem to take off as fast. the v6
contertible base model should have more
Love the convertable. Easy to use. Wind
noise is noticable, but not bad for a
convertable. No problems so far with
the car (about 38,000 miles on it). Gas
mileage is ok ~ 24 miles/gallon on
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text:
Definition of filo in English:
(also phyllo)
noun[mass noun]
A kind of dough that can be stretched into very thin sheets, used in layers to make both sweet and savoury pastries, especially in eastern Mediterranean cooking: [as modifier]: filo pastry
More example sentences
- Some are made with extremely thin layers of filo pastry and have different shapes.
- Line a tart tin with 3-4 sheets of filo pastry, well brushed with melted butter.
- The traditional Arab dessert is baklava, which is an exquisite pastry with layers of phyllo dough covered with nuts and honey.
1950s: from modern Greek phullo 'leaf'.
Words that rhyme with filokilo
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Line breaks: filo
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