text:
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition
Pages 1 - 183 of 183
1996 I. No. 113
2Royal Courts of Justice
3Strand, London
4 Tuesday, 29th February 2000
10Claimant -and-
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
& Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
Counsell & Company)
1 (10.30 a.m.)
2 MR RAMPTON: I think Mr Irving has something to say, my Lord.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving?
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, I understand that today I am going to be
5cross-examining Professor Funke, which is after he has
6been presented to the court. There are two things I want
7to mention first. First of all, I understand from today's
8Israeli newspapers and yesterday's Washington Post that
9the Defence now have the Eichmann papers. In other words,
10they are going to bring in the Battleship Eichmann in a
11frantic attempt to rescue their position.
12 I would be very grateful if I had the chance to
13read them as early as possible rather than just being
14presented with them piecemeal.
15 MR RAMPTON: Yes, of course. We have not read them yet. If
16they contain relevant material, those relevant parts will
17be disclosed at once.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that enough?
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, do they not now become discoverable now
20that they are in their custody?
21 MR RAMPTON: No, not unless they are relevant.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know quite what we are talking about
23is it a diary?
24 MR RAMPTON: I do not know. I have not seen it. It has come
25on e-mail. It is about 600 pages of memoirs. That is all
26I know. If they contain relevant material, then the
1relevant material, plus context of course, will be
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a slightly unconventional approach,
4is it not? Normally, it would be a document which would
5be discoverable if it contained any relevant material.
6You would not normally redact the non-relevant material.
7 MR RAMPTON: You are allowed to redact that is the case of
8Guardian v. GRE.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Only for good reasons, in my recollection.
10 MR RAMPTON: No, if it is irrelevant. I do not really mind as
11it is in the public domain anyway.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it?
13 MR RAMPTON: Yes. It will be from tomorrow morning. The
14Israeli government are going to release it to the public
15at large, so I do not really mind. But I do not want to
16lumber the proceedings with a great fat document if it
17does not contain anything relevant.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Nor do I. It just seems to me, in terms of
19what Mr Irving should see, he probably ought to see for
20himself and judge for himself.
21 MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is not a problem. It is just that we
22have not looked at it ourselves yet. It is not even in
23readable form at the moment.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may feature in your cross-examination of
25Mr Irving, I suppose.
26 MR RAMPTON: It may well do. I will know by the end of the day
1whether it will, and he will immediately get a copy.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He ought to have the copy by close of
3business today really, ought he not?
4 MR RAMPTON: I agree.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Thank you. So that deals with that.
6 MR IRVING: My Lord, inform me, please. Is it not automatically
7discoverable now that it is within their custody,
8possession and power?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are going to get it.
10 MR IRVING: Just so it can be quite plain, the whole document
11rather than a redacted version.
12 MR RAMPTON: No. I made a mistake. I thought it had come
13through in e-mail and has been put into readable form.
14Apparently not even that has happened yet. There is
15something the matter with the electronics.
16 MR IRVING: I recommend Macintosh.
17 MR RAMPTON: I do not know what the problem is because I am
18completely ignorant on those matters, so I have to
19surrender to others.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, the order I am making, unless I am
21told that it is electronically impossible to comply with
22it, is that you should be provided with a copy.
23 MR IRVING: In electronic form if necessary.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In electronic form if necessary, of the
25Eichmann document by close of business, by which I mean,
26let us say, 5 p.m. today.
1 MR IRVING: I am indebted to your Lordship. The second point
2concerns the videos. I see that preparation has been made
3for display of videos. I have no notion of which video is
4going to be shown. It may well be that I would have
5objections to make to the videos for the reasons that
6I have already adumbrated to your Lordship, namely videos
7that have been edited in some way or prepared for
8broadcasting with sound effects and violins and subtitles,
9which may have been tendentiously translated, and the rest
10of it. I see the equipment is there. I certainly have a
11day of cross-examination of Professor Funke to do today
12and I think that I should be told in advance what the
13videos are and be given a chance to make representations.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have some sympathy with that.
15 MR RAMPTON: What I propose to do is to ask Professor Funke to
16lay the ground for these videos, because I do not think it
17is right to spring them on Mr Irving or your Lordship just
18like that, by asking him. Your Lordship will know that at
19the back of his report there is an appendix containing a
20list of names and descriptions. I am going to ask him to
21go through the important characters in that list, to
22expand on who they are and what they stand for, then to
23ask him how far he is aware that those people have had
24contact with Mr Irving, because Professor Funke has had
25access to Mr Irving's diary correspondence and so on, and
26to ask him the nature of those contacts speaking to
1us, for example, and the extent of them. That I hope is a
2short cut through what is a very voluminous and in some
3senses rather intricate report. Then I propose to show
4the videos which, as far as possible, we have stripped of
5editorial content. Most of them simply show people
6speaking, including, to a large extent, Mr Irving himself
7on a number ----
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not a jury and I am quite capable,
9I hope, sorting out the wheat from the chaff.
10 MR RAMPTON: Precisely -- on a limited number of occasions in
11Germany in the 1990s. What Professor Funke will do is to
12identify Mr Irving's fellow travellers, if I can call them
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will he also identify in advance what film is
15going to be shown so that, if Mr Irving has an objection,
16he can make it.
17 MR RAMPTON: He or I or Miss Rogers will do that.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long is the video going to take?
19 MR RAMPTON: They can be very short. One of them is really
20quite long, but I do not believe it needs to have the
21whole of it shown. Most of them are really quite short.
22One is about 10 seconds.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The total?
24 MR RAMPTON: Total about an hour.
25 MR RAMPTON: The long one I spoke of is about 70 minutes, but
26there is an awful lot of, if I may use the word, ranting,
1not by Mr Irving alone, in the course of that video and
2one does not want to see the whole of it, necessarily.
3One merely needs to whiz forwards so that Professor Funke
4can say who the people are. That is 70 minutes but one
5does not need to watch the whole of it. The rest in total
6are about 45 minutes. If I said an hour for the videos
7and about three quarters of an hour in preparation, that
8will then set the scene for cross-examination.
9 MR IRVING: My Lord, if it is purely, as I understand it, what
10Muller would have called visual materials, then I have no
11objection to them being shown. But if in any attention is
12paid to the content of what is alleged to be said, or the
13extracts taken, then of course I would want advance notice
14of them.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us leave it like this. You are going to
16get some idea from Mr Funke's evidence what these clips
17are going to be. If you want to raise an objection when
18you know what you are going to be presented with, then do
19so. Shall we leave it like that?
20 MR RAMPTON: I will tell Mr Irving now what the meetings are.
21There is one on at Agonou in Azas on 12th November 1989
22organised by Mr Christophersen. There is a meeting in
23Munich under the legend or heading "Vaheit macht Frey" on
2421st April 1990. There is a meeting at Passau under the
25aegis of the DVU and Mr Gerhard Frey on 16th February
261991. There is what is called the Leuchter Congress,
1which is the long tape, on 23rd March 1991, again in
2Munich, and that is one in which a number of names which
3will be familiar to your Lordship, if not now, certainly
4by end of this exercise, feature. Then finally there is
5what is, in some ways we would suppose, perhaps the most
6striking, which is an outdoor rally in a place called
7Halle in what used to be East Germany but by 9th November
81991 was in the reunited Germany.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful. Thank you very much.
10 MR IRVING: I think I will only have problems with the Halle
11one because that particular piece of film has been very
12heavily chopped around, cutting out very important parts
13of what I said. So, as I said before, if this is purely a
14rogues gallery, I have no objection to the court being
15shown it at this stage.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have we got a transcript of what you said at
18 MR IRVING: We have made a transcript of as much as is on the
19film as far as we possibly can.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just what is on the film? That is your
22 MR RAMPTON: I have not got that.
23 MR IRVING: It has been on my website for the last year.
24 MR RAMPTON: That is a peculiar way of making disclosure. Oh,
25it is not.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has probably been disclosed as well.
1Anyway, that is the one you may be objecting to?
2 MR IRVING: Purely to the text of the film rather than the
3rogues gallery pictures of these alleged sleezy friends of
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
6 MR RAMPTON: Now the Professor needs to be sworn.
7 < Professor Funke, affirmed.
8 < Examined by Mr Rampton QC
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Herr Funke, do sit down.
10 MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, have you made a report for the
11purposes of this case?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I did.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] So far as it contains statements of fact, are you
14satisfied that they are as true as they can be?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think so.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] And, so far as they contain expressions of opinion, are
17you satisfied that those opinions are fair?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think so.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] My Lord, Professor Funke's English is not quite as good as
20Dr Longerich's was. The subject with which he is dealing
21is in some senses quite subtle and in other senses quite
22technical. I am going to invite him at any stage, if he
23feels uncomfortable in English, to go into German. He
24must go slowly because otherwise the interpreter will not
25be able to keep up.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you can manage in English, Professor, it
2makes life easier.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I try my best.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And a bit quicker but, if you feel
5difficulties, then have resort to the interpreter.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Thank you.
7 MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, could you please be given your
8report? Have you got your report there?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] At the back of your report there are two appendices.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Could you go to the appendix two, please?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Which you have entitled "Biographies". Have you got the
15appendix there?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] We do not need the actual report, I hope, at all, at any
18rate as far as I am concerned. You heard what I said to
19his Lordship before you were sworn to give evidence, that
20I am going to go through some of the names in this
21appendix and ask you who they are and what they stand
22for, what their ideologies and policies are. Do you
23remember my saying that?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am going also to ask you in respect of each person
26whether you are able to give us in summary form an account
1of their contacts with Mr Irving. Can I first take a man
2who is not on this list, called Michael Kuhnen? Who is or
3was Michael Kuhnen?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Michael Kuhnen was one of the leading neo-Nazi activists
5in the 70s, throughout the 80s, up to April of '91, when
6he died. He was up to renew the NSDAP of the period of
7 '33 to '45.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] What we now call the Nazi party?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right. So he did a lot together with others
10internationally and nationally, to ask for relegalization
11of this Party. Furthermore, he referred to special groups
12within the Nazi regime, that is the Sturmabteilung, the
13stormtroopers, a more street violence orientated
14perception of what the new Nazis, the neo-Nazis, the
15neo-National Socialists should do. Finally, I want to add
16that he asked for a second revolution in that sense, so to
17overflow the liberal democracy. He agitated very much
18against Jews, very anti-Semitic, he asked for pure Aryan
19race based state.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Give me again the year that he died?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] April 91.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] April 91. Amongst the neo-Nazi or far right groups now in
23Germany, are there any that can be described as Herr
24Kuhnen's direct heirs or successors?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There are some, especially I have to say there is a person
26called Christian Worch and there is another person called
1Gottfried Kussel from Austria, and they both have close
2links to NSDAPAO, person Gary Lauck from the United
3States. These are the three most important -- there are
4others around this camp, like Thomas Wulf from Hamburg,
5Christian Worch is from Hamburg, Uschi Worch from Hamburg.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is that Mrs Worch? Is that Frau Worch?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
8 MR IRVING: My Lord, would it be helpful if the witness at each
9stage indicated whether it is going to be alleged I had
10any contact with these names.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is stage 2.
12 MR RAMPTON: Be patient, please.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, stage 2, do not worry. We will get to
15 MR RAMPTON: Can you say whether a man called Ewald Althans is
16in this grouping or not?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, he is, but he did not found with the others one of
18these groupings in the 70s and the 80s was a group called
19ANSNA, action front of national socialists, and so forth,
20and then a group that is of importance for the period in
21the 80s and early 90s called Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, a
22group of the like-minded of the new front.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Who do we find in that -- have we got an abbreviation for
24that because I cannot say it each time?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We can call them Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] All right. I will try. Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We can call them also it is done sometimes in the social
2scientists reports "the Kuhnen crew".
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right, who nowadays is in the Kuhnen crew?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Nowadays?
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes-- no, go back to the time when Kuhnen died, who do we
6find in the ----
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] At that time it was Christian Worch, it was Althans, it
8was Uschi Worch. So far I see at the side lines also
9Ingrid Weckert, Gottfried Kussel, Thomas Wulf, and others.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right, now taking them in turn, or, first, have they
11inherited, those people, the same kind of neo-Nazi
12ideology, particularly in relation to anti-Semitism, that
13was propounded by Kuhnen before he died?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They did not change the course of their ideas, as far as
15they are stated publicly. There are tactical, you know,
16changes but of lower degree. If I may add, nowadays means
17this year and some of them are still active like the
18Christian Worch near to the NPD extreme right-wing
19extremist party. That in itself changed in the course of
20the 90s to a more radical strategy.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can we stay at the moment, please, in the early 90s at and
22around the time and immediately after the time of Kuhnen's
23death? At what date in Germany did Holocaust denial
24become illegal?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There were in the middle of the '80s several laws set
26through the parliament that this is a kind of incitement
1of racial hatred and defamation of survivors and killed
2people. So in the middle of the '80s, there was a
3strikening, a sharpening of this kind of law that this is
4forbidden and again in '94, and so there was again renewal
5of this, of this law.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, now among those people that you have mentioned --
7I am going to take them in turn -- you have had access,
8have you not, to Mr Irving's correspondence, his diary and
9material of that kind, have you not?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I did.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] First, may I take Mr Kuhnen who is now dead? Did ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am so sorry to interrupt. For
13the transcribers' benefit, shall we just spell the names
14that we are really concerned with?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
17 MR RAMPTON: "Michael". Can you tell us whether or not
18Mr Irving had any contact with Michael Kuhnen and, if so,
19to what extent?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I see, but you know better, to a limited degree he
21saw him once, at least -- I have to be very precise --
22they were at the same meetings.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In 1990 and so far I recall in '90 -- no, in '90,
25especially in '90, and in late '89. They were at the same
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How many meetings?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] At least two I recall in Hagnau and on the 21st April
3of '90 and -- no, this is it, yes.
4 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
5 MR IRVING: Could the witness be specific about what he means
6by being at the same meetings? Does he mean that
7Mr Kuhnen was in the audience or on the platform next to
9 MR RAMPTON: That is a good question.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a fair question, yes.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Exactly. He was in the audience and ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, who was in the audience? Mr Irving
13was in the audience or Mr Kuhnen was in the audience?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is quite important which actually?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Mr Kuhnen was in the audience and Mr Irving spoke in the,
17you know, a Congress [German] in Munich at the 21st
18April '90.
19 MR RAMPTON: Yes, then what about Ewald Althans?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is very different. Mr Irving had close contacts ----
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Pause, sorry, I forgot. Althans is A-L-T-H-A-N-S. Ewald
22is E-W-A-L-D. Sorry.
23 MR IRVING: Mr Rampton, most of the names are on the list that
24I have given to the transcriber.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not realize that.
26 MR IRVING: She will be able to find them eventually, but they
1are in the sequence of my questions rather than your
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful, Mr Irving.
4 MR RAMPTON: Tell us now about the relationship, if there is
5one, between Mr Althans and Mr Irving, Professor.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If I may say so, it is a very close relationship, so far
7I got it from the diaries. Of course, this is a limited
8source, but also by the disclosures and by other social
9scientists, researchers. Althans was very active in that
10period of time as a kind of mediator of the Zundel, of the
11Ernst Zundel, one of the leading revisionists, and he was
12a kind of pupil, if I may say so, of the late Otto Ernst
13Remer, one of the so-called heroes of the neo-Nazi scene.
14 MR RAMPTON: If I hold my hand up, can you pause because it
15means that something you have said has prompted another
16question? We will come back to Althans in a moment.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK. I will restrict myself. Excuse me.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, only if I hold my hand up otherwise you continue.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I will look at you.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you just tell us a little bit about is it Otto Ernst
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Otto Ernst Remer, right.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Who was he? Is he still alive?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, he died in the middle, in the later '90s.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Tell us first who he was.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is perceived as one of the heroes of the crushing down
1of the coup attempt of the resistance movement during the
2Nazi period in 20th July 1944. He was in one of the
3Berlin battalions to crush the coup d'etat attempt down
4and since then, after '45, he was perceived.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] What rank in the Army did he hold at the time when he
6crushed the 20th July plot?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I recall, I am not quite sure, I have to look it
8up, a Major. That is a kind of middle high range below
9the General level.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, we know what a Major is, I think. It is roughly the
11same, I imagine, in Germany. What rank did he achieve
12after he had crushed the coup?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He got up, but I cannot recall to what degree.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Sorry, I should not have interrupted you. You continue
15with his place, please in this scenario which you are
16painting for us.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So maybe I should say two sentences to Remer to finish
18this ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, then we will go back to Althans?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- for that period of time. He was then very active in
21one of the early neo-Nazi circles, after '45. So he was
22with founder of the Sozialistische
23Reichspartei -- cofounder, excuse me, of the Socialist
24Reichs Party, I would say, and these were clear cut people
25who tried to renew National Socialism. If you may imagine
26that at that time there was a lot of applause in parts of
1the population in Germany, and because of that but also
2by, you know, convincing value reasons, this party was
3forbidden in '52.
4 So after that the famous Fritz Bauer who did the
5Auschwitz trial in Frankfurt had a court from the state
6side against court ----
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Action?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- procedure against Remer statements in the early '50s.
9So there was really something to him. Then he stayed
10course, if I may say so, throughout the '50, '60s, '70s
11and got some resonance again in the '80s and especially in
12the '90s with a very harsh, I would say, neo-Nazi course
13of the so-called Remer Depechert(?). This is a little
14magazine, kind of magazine.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] You told us that in some sense Althans was a protege of
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] How exactly did that happen and what does it mean?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] As a young boy, Althans is in the '30s still, of 14 or 16,
20he joined Remer and got very intense lessons by Remer's
21convictions, and he referred himself in several
22statements, I mean Althans referred himself to this Remer
23like convictions and he said that they came from him to a
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now, what relationship does or has Althans had with some
26of the other people you have mentioned, for example, the
1Worchs and Kussel?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They were at the period that is of interest, in the period
3that is of interest, very close. So they interacted, they
4had their quarrels, but they interacted a lot to prepare
5revisionist congresses, demonstrations, and I may add to
6widen their influence to the new free zone for influence,
7that is to say, the former GDR, East Germany. That was a
8very fruitful field after the falling down of the Wall.
9Immediately after that ----
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Explain as briefly as you can why that was a fruitful
11field for the activities of these people.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The authoritarian GDR regime lost not only control but all
13sorts of convictions that many people in authoritarian
14regime. This took place especially in the 80s, I am very
15sure. So a lot of various youngster groups spread and
16came to the fore, leftist, rightist and, in the middle of
17the 80s, in the face of the decay of the former
18authoritarian GDR regime, the extreme right-wing
19skinheads, very violent groups, took over in the scene out
20of the formal youth groupings and youth movement. Since
2186 or 87 we have had really a fascist scene that were very
22brutal against foreigners already at that period. So they
23were there without a control in 89 and early 90. This was
24the situation in which the far right groups, and
25especially these neo-Nazis we are talking about, said, OK
26this is a chance to widen our influence, to make and to
1steer and to be an avant-garde of male youngsters movement
2of that kind.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] We are going to see the film shortly. One such occasion
4as you have described with lots of these young skinheads
5took place at Halle in November 91, did it not?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, this is right, but also before and after.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Where is Halle is my question? We are ignorant English in
8this court!
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Halle is around one hundred kilometres or so south to
10Berlin in East Germany former GDR.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] In the former GDR?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am not sure I am aware of the
14extent of Mr Irving's connections with the likes of Otto
15Remer. Althans you have dealt with I think. Otto Remer:
16Is there a connection alleged.
17 MR RAMPTON: I have not dealt with him. I will do that. I do
18not want to take too long. At the same time I do not want
19to cut any corners. Are you aware whether or not
20Mr Irving had any contacts with Otto Ernst Remer before he
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think so. During the meetings.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do we see Otto Ernst Remer in any of these films or not?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, we will see them, if the videos will be shown.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] I pass from Althans to somebody called -- I will take them
26out of order because I want to stick with what you have
1just told us, but I am coming back to some other names
2afterwards. What about Gottfried Kussel, the Austrian?
3Where does he stand in this? What is his position?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Gottfried Kussel is perceived as one of the three dominant
5successors of the Kuhnen crew, the
6Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. Aside of Christian Worch, who was
7the organisational leader, so to speak, and aside of a
8third person, wait a minute, Gottfried Kussel, Worch,
9I come to him in a minute.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] All right.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Gottfried Kussel was and is an Austrian who joined this
12kind of attempt of renewal of the Nazi party, and he was
13eager to prepare paramilitary groups by so-called
14Wehrsportgruppe -- can you translate that?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Military exercise groups, military style
16support groups.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So he was very active in that, it was his part.
18 MR RAMPTON: Dressing up in battle dress with guns?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Marching around in the woods?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And using old weapons they found from the Second World War
22or using Bundeswar weapons, if they get them, using
23weapons of especially the army of Austria.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you take that kind of activity seriously?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not do it up to 89, I have to say, because up to 89
26there was such tiny little groups that we just looked over
1as social scientists, but since they got some influence
2and even widened this influence in the early 90s, you
3may recall that there was a brutal wave of violence
4against foreigners with 70 killed peoples within three
5years. So with this I was very eager to analyse it a bit
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes I understand that.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, when did the Berlin Wall come
9down? I should know.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 9th November 89, so two years before this Halle meeting we
11are coming to.
12 MR RAMPTON: I have two diversions for you, I am afraid. The
139th November is an anniversary of something else, is it
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. It is the most loaded kind of anniversary date we
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Apart from the 30th January perhaps, or the 20th April?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it is even more loaded, if I may say so.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are a bit elliptical at this stage.
20 MR RAMPTON: The 30th January is the speech in the Reichstag in
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Hitler's birthday, if I may add, is 20th April.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Tell us about the 9th November.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There was a coup d'etat of Hitler and his comrades at the
259th November 1923, the so-called ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Putsch?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] March to the Feltan Halle. You discuss it here.
2 MR RAMPTON: Tell me about that.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. Of course 15 years later, 9th November, the
4so-called Reichskristallnacht, the night of the broken
5glasses, and again 9th November 1989. This was, by the
6way, the reason that the authorities did not dare to use
7this as a kind of national anniversary date.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] No. As you said, it is a bit loaded. Do you know whether
9Mr Irving has had any contacts with Gottfried Kussel?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. Again, the same as it is with Kuhnen, if
11I may say so, on the same level. They were at this same
12meeting, especially in Halle, and he has seen him, so far
13as the video shows, but maybe he sees it different. But
14the video is, I think, very clear on that. And the like.
15So no mentioned connections in the diaries and elsewhere.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now we come to somebody who I think we do find fairly
17often in the diaries, two people, Christian Worch and his
18wife Ursula or Uschi Worch. Do they appear in the
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. This is, I would say, the interactions between David
21Irving and Christian and Ursula Worch, as intense as they
22were with Ewald Althans.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Characterize, if you will.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I just counted the interactions so far we got it from the
25disclosures, from other sources and from the diary of
26David Irving, 26 in three years. A lot of interaction
1between others and David Irving and the Worches.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Others such as whom?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Others like Karl Philipp, another very interesting person
4in this network.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am coming to him. Karl Philipp. Anybody else?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. Christian Worch was one of the main organizers, as
7I said, of the neo-Nazi movement between 89 and 93, the
8period that is of interest here. By the way, furthermore,
9so he is at the centre of this Kuhnen crew after his
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is he still active?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is sill active. He organised a demonstration at the
1329th, so one day before the 30th January 2000 in Berlin,
14against the attempt to build a memorial of the Holocaust,
15a very neo-Nazi like demonstration, very ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask this? Are you saying that
17Mr Irving and Karl Philipp have had contact with each
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, very much so. Karl Philipp, Ewald Althans and
20Christian Worch are those with whom David Irving had the
21most intense interactions at that time.
22 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think he ought to specify, if he says
23I had 26 contacts, what he means by contacts.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that was Karl Philipp
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, that was Christian Worch.
1 MR IRVING: If we are to use that kind of statistic, I think it
2would be useful just to telephone ----
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you want to, up to a point.
4 MR RAMPTON: Absolutely right.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am anxious to get the broad picture at the
6moment, but can you explain what you mean by interactions
7or contacts?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is all sorts of interactions to prepare things, to take
9sides, to be invited. So, for example, at the 3rd March
10of '90 David Irving was invited to the group. He
11especially had, I have to say, in Hamburg, the so-called
12nationalist, this is a bunch of little tiny groups. So he
13was invited to give one of David Irving's speeches there,
14and there were, of course, the Nationalists, so part of
15this neo-Nazi camp, in that region, that is to say in
16Hamburg, and, on the other hand, new invited East Germans
17around the new built other group like the Deutsche
18Alternative. So just to say the minimum that groups of
19the neo-Nazi camp around Hamburg and groups of the new
20organized groupings of East Germany came together to hear
21David Irving at the 3rd March of '90. This kind of
22interaction, preparing speeches, tours and the like. The
23same holds true, if I may add this, in preparation of the
24event of the 9th November '91, in Halle. This Halle event
25was interesting in the regrouping and further organizing
26of the neo-Nazi movement in the early 90s. They tried to
1combine their groupings and you will see it on the video.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can we just pause there?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] These summaries are taken from your report. We can see an
5illustration of what you are talking about, my Lord, if we
6take the second file, RWE file, and turn to tab 11. Could
7the witness please be given that? Could you turn please,
8Professor, to the second page in the summary which you
9will find at the beginning of that tab? It has a (ii) at
10the bottom of the page and we are looking at some dates.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again, excuse me.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] The second page of the summary at the beginning.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] We see some dates from March 1990 to August 1991.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] We do not need to read them out unless anybody wants me
17to. Would you just read them to yourself and continue
18down to the end of 9th November '91 on the following page.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. (Pause for reading).
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now, if one reads on, one sees that they went on
21corresponding with each other through until June 1993.
22Can you please just look at the entry for the 1st January
231992? It is the middle of page (iii).
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] You, or rather Miss Rogers, has written summarising your
26evidence, letter P, that is Mr Irving, to the Worches,
1using the informal address "du". What does that signify
2in German if one addresses people in that form?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It signifies a close relation, that they know each other
4by private level.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] How do you then respond to a suggestion, if it be made,
6that these Worch people were just informal slight
7acquaintances of Mr Irving who sometimes turned up to his
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No. They are of central importance. You let me read the
10page before, and it is stated that they met not only at
11the 3rd March but on the next day, Althans and Worch
12together with the plaintiff. Then Althans organized
13something with the help of Worch. That is the 21st April,
14the first revisionist Congress in Munich that was a joint
15organization. It is very interesting that you have
16joining the revisionists and the like with these kind of
17clear cut neo-Nazis. Then they met again the next morning
18with Wilhelm Staglich, another ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am going to ask you about that entry for 22nd April in a
20moment. You say a close relationship, had Worch been
21present on these occasions when Mr Irving has spoken?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Has Worch spoken on the same occasions?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is several times the case. For example, at the second
25so-called Leuchter Congress at the 23rd March '91 and
26again at the 9th November '91, and so far, yes, these are
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They planned to invite Mr Irving to the Wansiedel
4meeting. This is very important for this scene. The
5Wansiedel meetings every year in August, remembers the
6death of the hero in that circle, Rudolf Hess. Mr Irving
7did not come to the Wansiedel meeting because he did not
8want, as the diary shows, to take sides openly with
9Michael Kuhnen, but, as we see, he did with the other
10person. This is Christian Worch.
11 MR IRVING: Would the witness just explain what he means by
12taking sides with Michael Kuhnen?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I recall your diary, but you know it better.
14 MR IRVING: May I put it to the witness that in fact I made it
15quite plain I would not attend if Kuhnen was going to be
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right. Taking sides. But, you know, if I may add -- no,
18I should not. I see. Go on.
19 MR RAMPTON: Who is Rudiger Hess?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is one of the activists in the scene and the son of
21Rudolf Hess.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you turn to the entry in the summary for 22nd April
231990 please?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving's diary records that he had breakfast on the
26morning after the Wahrheitnachtfrei in Munich with
1Staglich, Hancock and the Worches. Who is Wilhelm
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Wilhem Staglich is a former judge, and is very active in
4these revisionists circles, quite a while, a very old
5man. I think he died in the middle of the 90s.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Does revisionism in that sense include any element of
7Holocaust denial?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is often the case, and with him it is.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] With him it is? I am going to ask you some other names
10now. I am going to go backwards through this summary that
11you have produced. Who is Udo Walendy?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think he is one of the most outspoken persons in the
13Holocaust denial network and activities. He did and he is
14doing a magazine. I have some copies of that in my hotel,
15so I can show it if it is necessary. He presented to the
16German audience the Arthur Butz Holocaust denial attempt.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Hoax of the 20th century"?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right, in the 70s. I am not quite sure, the sources say
19that he attended Hagenau, this revisionist meeting in
20November 89.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] We are going to have a look at that.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So he is the most, if I may say so, outspoken and
23differentiated in trying to make this cause.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you know whether Mr Irving has been associated with
25Staglich or Walendy?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, they met in their circles of course, in their
1revisionists meetings.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How do you know that?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] By the sources, with respect to this both persons, but
4I have to look them up because it is such a bunch of
5people who are interacting, interconnecting, meeting
6networking and so forth. So forgive me that I have to
7look it up.
8 MR RAMPTON: Well we will see Staglich in some of the films and
9perhaps Walendy, and we can see already that Mr Irving has
10had breakfast with Wilhelm Staglich on 22nd April 1990.
11We get that from his own diary, do we not?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
13 MR IRVING: That is the only entry in the diary which mentions
14it, is it not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He was there around, you know. He was there often
16around. This is the entry mentioning, but, as you know,
17on the day before he was there too, and you too.
18 MR IRVING: In the audience.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the audience, but you know the audience, and you know
20Mr Staglich, I think.
21 MR RAMPTON: What about somebody called Michael Swierczek?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe I should spell it for the court?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] No?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it might be helpful because sometimes
25the transcriber cannot really cross refer. That is the
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Go ahead.
2 MR RAMPTON: S W I E R C Z E K. Yes? Good. Who is he?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He belongs to this first mentioned Kuhnen crew, or
4Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, and he organized an own little
5tiny group more in the south to make this neo-Nazi cause
6along the lines of Michael Kuhnen, the National Offensive
7NO, and Swierczek invited David Irving, so far I recall,
8in '91. The success of these events were modest.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you.
10 MR IRVING: Did you say events or event?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There were two invitations, So far as the diaries and
12your sources says, and they were both, if I recall, in the
13effect of selling books and presenting to a bigger
15 MR RAMPTON: I have not asked about the policies and ideologies
16individually of each of these individuals. You said there
17is an element of Holocaust denial in many of them, of the
18heirs of Michael Kuhnen, you said there was anti-Semitism
19xenophobia. Yes?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, very much so.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is this true of somebody like Swierczek?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. In this whole neo-Nazi camp they are only little
23differentiations because they have to stick to their card
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Let me ask you a general question then. Do any of these
26neo-Nazi individuals, or groups of individuals, have a
1policy which is Nazi, but not anti-Semitic and
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to be very modest in answering this. I did not see
4any hint of this Kuhnen crew, the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft,
5that they distanced from that kind of rhetoric, agitation,
6ideology, world view. No, not any person of this
7I mentioned, not any person in any situation, so far I got
8the datas, so it is a clear cut thing. They are joining a
9kind of same world view.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] I cannot remember whether we have dealt with Karl Philipp
11or not?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, we have.
13 MR RAMPTON: Good. I will pass backwards over him. Do you
14know who Ditlieb Felderer is?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Just a bit. He is a Swedish joiner of this revisionist
16camp, and also politically very active.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] I think we are going to see him in one or other of these
18tapes, are we not? What about somebody called Thomas
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Thomas Dienel is one of the outspoken neo-Nazis in East
21Germany, so he is one of the East Germans who took this
22cause after '89. He changed his views and parties, but he
23was one of the most crude or crudest anti-Semites.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is it true that in July 1992 a Jewish leader called Heinz
25Galinski died?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] And what was the reaction of Dienel and his friends to
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They made bad, very cynical, jokes on that.
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think it should be properly stated
5whether any allegation is made that I have ever met this
6Mr Dienel, who is obviously an extremely unsavoury
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to keep a track of the extent to
9which ----
10 MR RAMPTON: That is always going to be my next question.
11I just want to get a picture of this nice Mr Dienel first.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before we paint a picture of him, he is not
13one of those who has a section in RWE one or two?
14 MR RAMPTON: No, he does not. The reason I mentioned him is
15partly that he is mentioned in this biography section in
16the appendix, and one can read for oneself.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. I may just allude to Thomas Dienel, he is of some
18importance, if I may say so, your Lordship.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you start though, by explaining, if
20may say so, Mr Rampton, what the connection with Mr Irving
22 MR IRVING: Thank you.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course. The connection is very simple and maybe
24very short. He was the inviter, together with Christian
25Worch, of the 9th November Halle meeting.
26 MR IRVING: Never heard of him in my life before.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will get your chance, Mr Irving. We must
2not make this too conversational.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You heard him. He spoke before you spoke.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, can we keep some sort of form to
5this? We have a system here. It is Mr Rampton
6questioning at the moment, so do not start conversations
7with Mr Irving.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me. Maybe I should add something to Thomas
9Dienel? Excuse me. I rely on your questions.
10 MR IRVING: I am sorry, I interrupted. Perhaps we ought to
11carry on.
12 MR RAMPTON: We can read on page 142 of the appendix what sort
13of a man Thomas Dienel is on your account. Is he one of
14those that we shall see on the film of the rally at Halle?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I alluded to that just before. He was the one of the
16organisers of the Halle rally, together with Christian
17Worch. It was a joint action and at that time, to my best
18knowledge, he was a member of the NPD, the National
19Democratic Party of Germany, so they did a joint effort,
20the neo-Nazis and this ultra right-wing extremist NPD.
21But then Thomas Dienel changed and organized a new clear
22cut neo-Nazi group, the DNP. It is maybe not of such an
23interest, but the point is that he was one of them at that
24period of time, the most outspoken crude anti-Semites.
25He, after the death of the famous Jewish representative
26Heinz Galinski, by the way, survivor of Auschwitz, who in
1a way never could escape the memory of Auschwitz, if I may
2say so. I knew him very well. An effort at that city
3where he stayed, Thomas Dienel, he took part in an action
4at the 20th July '92, following the death of this leader,
5Heinz Galinski, of the Jewish communities, pigs' heads
6were thrown to the garden of the Jewish community with
7labels that read "Every pig dies, you too Heinz". That
8means Heinz Galinski. In '92, Dienel was found saying
9unfortunately the younger generation has not yet killed
10any Jews.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] What age of man is this Thomas Dienel?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is in the 40s, I think.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am still, if I may say so, unsure on what
14basis you are suggesting, Professor, that there is a
15connection between ----
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not say connection.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Well, you said, I think, that Dienel, together with the
18Worches, was responsible for inviting Irving to speak at
19the Halle rally?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. Then I said you can call it connection. It is a
21connection for that given invitation and action.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] But why do you say Dienel was involved in inviting Irving
23to speak? Where do you get that from?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No. It is more precise. The demonstration in Halle, the
25Halle rally was organized and the invitation came from two
26persons, or two groups represented by these two persons.
1This is Thomas Dienel, the then NPD speaker, it is very
2public, and on the other hand by Christian Worch. The
3diary shows in that sense, I realize the surprise of David
4Irving just a minute ago, that he was invited by Ursula
5Worch ----
6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] That is what I was getting at.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- To come to this rally. So it was a kind of conflation
8of invitations, and by this he was in the scene. You know
9that David Irving is a very good understander of German
10language. So he knew him by hearing him, by participating
11at that demonstration and at a very prominent level. That
12is what I am saying, not more, and I did not do anything
13more in the report.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
15 MR IRVING: I am indebted to your Lordship for asking that
17 MR RAMPTON: We go now to man called Gunter Deckert. Before
18I ask you about Gunter Deckert, do you know of any
19connection between Mr Irving and Herr Deckert?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] By his website.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] How do you mean? That, to me, is a slightly Delphic
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They have a long interaction by communicating and
24referring to each other. He, Deckert, invited David
25Irving to speak in Weinheim at a given period of time, the
26early '90s, I think, in '90. So there was a clear cut
1each other knowledge of what they have stood for and that
2they stand for.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you tell me what sort of information they exchanged on
4the website?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to say only to a limit because it is so much to
6read, if I see the web sites of David Irving that
7I restrict myself, but to a degree he refers to the court
8things Deckert was in because of the event in Weinheim.
9Deckert got debated imprisonment by doing this event in
10early, in the early '90s, I think in '91. So David Irving
11is repeatedly referring to this kind of aftermath of this
13 MR IRVING: It is actually an appeal for funds for the family
14of Deckert, is it not, while he is in prison?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think we had better just leave
17it to you to cross-examine later. It seems that Deckert
18is somebody you were in fairly regular contact with.
19 MR IRVING: No problem with that one at all.
20 MR RAMPTON: Well, then is this no problem about the contact?
21Can we know something about Herr Deckert himself and his
22views, please?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Deckert is one of those who is very near to the hardcore
24revisionists and he got the NPD Chair in '91 to '95, and
25he was one of the persons who radicalized in this period
26of radicalization of right-wing extremist movements in
1Germany because of the scenery, especially in East
2Germany, he radicalized the NPD. This is, if I may say
3so, out of the perspective of a social scientist, a very
4interesting, you know, change at that period of time,
5because that means in the following years that the
6interaction between the neo-Nazis and the NPD grew. And
7finally after all this neo-Nazi -- no, after a bunch of
8these neo-Nazi groups were banned by the German
9authorities in '92 and '93 and '94 and '95, the NPD was
10the so-called still formally legal but ultra right-wing
11extremist party who took over, and organized this little
12tiny neo-Nazi groups to a degree in their camp.
13 So we have the interesting thing, just to finish
14it with one sentence, that at the end of the century we
15had a kind of joining efforts of the Christian Worch camp
16on the one hand and the NPD camp on the other conflating
17in the demonstration of 29th January through the Bahnhof
18Gate against the attempt of a memorial.
19 MR IRVING: What year was that? 29th January what year?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 2000, just to give a kind of overview how this conflation
21took place.
22 MR RAMPTON: Good. I have only three others on my list at the
23moment. We may have to ask further questions when we look
24at the tapes, Professor. A man called Thies
25Christophersen, tell us about him. Tell us, first,
26whether he has been associated with Mr Irving, will you?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Very much so because Thies Christophersen is one of the
2networkers who is on the very radical side of the clear
3cut Holocaust denier. He has some resonance in these
4groups by having been in Auschwitz as a kind of lower
5officer in the kind of garden area near to the camps. So
6he pretend to know all about Auschwitz, and he wrote one
7of these famous books "Die Auschwitz-Luge", "The Auschwitz
8Lie". So he organized that he was very sharp in
9presenting his case. So he was caught, he was attacked by
10the judicial authorities, so he had to leave Germany.
11 He resided in -- he lived in Kolant in Denmark
12for a period of time and, to make it very clear, he is one
13of those who combined this radical revisionists with the
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right, so, in other words, he makes a bridge or link?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, he is one of the bridges the linkers.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] The neo-Nazis on the one side?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] And the Holocaust deniers on the other?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. So he was also responsible for this Hagenau meeting
21to a degree and the revisionists' meetings at that time.
22He died then in the '90s.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, when we look at the Hagenau meeting which is the
24first one we will look at, it is quite short, that was
25organized by Christophersen, is that right?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I recall, yes.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] And I think we are going to see, but you will tell us
2whether we are right, Arthur Butts?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We do not see him, but it is said that, according to the
4sources, that he is there.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] OK, yes. Christian Worch whom you can identify?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Karl Philipp you think?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think. The sources says it, but we cannot see him in
9that meeting. I think we will see him in another meeting.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right. Wilhelm Staglich?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I recall, he could -- you could see him.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] If Worch and Staglich are both there, then, on the one
13hand, you have a neo-Nazi Worch and, on the other hand,
14you have a denier in Staglich?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, this is a very interesting point, that you have a
16kind interaction to say the minimum between this kind of
17revisionists and this kind of neoNazis, that has, of
18course, something to do with the ideas behind. So there
19was a conflation. And to say in one sentence more about
20that, especially in Germany and Austria, if in any sense
21neo-Nazis can get some success, political success, they
22have to do as the first thing to by any means try to
23rehabilitate National Socialism as far as it is possible.
24This is the crucial point. By denying, by relativizing,
25by blaming the Jews as those who made it up or who did it
26or who let it do, so by all various kinds of rhetorics,
1agitations, to downplay this Nazi period, to restore, you
2know, the kind of proud of the extreme Aryan racist
3anti-Semitic nation. This is the bottom line of it. So
4they conflate one and again, once and again.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do I understand what you have just said to involve, I hope
6you do not mind a little piece of colloquial English, that
7you are telling us that your familiarity with neo-Nazi and
8denialist publications, utterances, speeches, and so on
9and so forth, one of their themes is that the Jews had it
10coming to them and brought it on themselves?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, this is one of the most, if I may say personally,
12most striking things, that it is said that in the course
13of centuries or, to quote David Irving, of 3,000 years in
14one of his quotations, the Jews are responsible because
15they are disliked. Whether -- and the direction is that
16the Jews are the reasons for being disliked because of
17their various behaviour, alleged behaviours, and so they
18are responsible, they are so to speak ----
19 THE INTERPRETER: They carry part of the guilt.
20 MR RAMPTON: Sorry?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They carry part of the guilt or the whole guilt that they
22were murdered, and in a quite illogical, irrational way,
23this is then changed by saying, "OK, but the Holocaust did
24not happen, at least not to the degree" so you have a
25double ----
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] One might ----
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- double standard ----
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- double meaning, a kind of controversial in itself, but
4this can only be solved by the distance and even hatred
5against the Jews in that camp.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can I stick with what I was on? We have seen the passage
7and other passages from Mr Irving's utterances that you
8speak of, my question is this. Is that thought, really it
9is all the Jews' own fault, if it did happen, which it did
10not, they deserved it or they brought it on themselves",
11is that a common theme amongst the denialist and neo-Nazi
12publications with which you are familiar in Germany?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It comes always to the fore. If you see Hagenau, you see
14all of a sudden Mr Zundel rousing his voice and saying,
15 "This Juden pack".
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] What does that mean?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
18 THE INTERPRETER: "Pack of Jews".
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: A pack.
20 MR RAMPTON: A pack of Jews?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is a very negative connotation.
22 MR RAMPTON: What, as though the were dogs or something?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is a kind of bunch of people who are doing this dirty,
24ugly thing. It is a kind of slogan we know in Germany,
25"Juden pack", these people who are doing this bad things.
26 THE INTERPRETER: "Pack" meaning low people with low
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So just a representation of aggression, of very aggression
3and humiliating the Jews.
4 MR RAMPTON: This is the famous Ernst Zundel from Canada, is
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
7 MR RAMPTON: Goodness me!
8 MR IRVING: There is no suggestion that I had used words like
10 MR RAMPTON: There is a suggestion that Mr Irving was at this
11meeting and made a speech, is there not, to this audience?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] People like Mr Zundel?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: At Hagenau, yes.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe he did not hear him, but he was there.
16 MR RAMPTON: Yes. Hagenau is in Alsace, is it not? It is in
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, in Alsace.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Then two others, finally, who are not on my list -- there
20may be others when we look at the tape -- Professor, one
21is a Spanish man, I think, called Pedro Verala, who is he?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is again one of the -- you know, he is the successor of
23a bunch of neo-Nazis who fled to Spain because, as you may
24know, the Franco Spain was a kind of resort area for
25National Socialists.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. He is what? He is a neo-Nazi or revisionist? What
1is he?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Both.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Both. Finally, then, a somewhat curious figure amongst
4all these Aryans, somebody Ahmed Rami. Who is he?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is a wide anti-Semite, to say the minimum.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Where does he come from?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Stockholm, but original descent from Morocco. He is
8talking in the second Leuchter Congress, you will see it
9if you decide to.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] He speaks in French?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He speaks in French. He is always talking about the
12Zionist Mafia who lead the world and this kind of, 20
13minutes in this video, so you will see how long you will
14view it.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you propose any further connection between Mr Irving
16and -- I have lost his name?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The Spaniard.
18 MR RAMPTON: Verala and Rami, other than that they appeared at
19this meeting in Munich together on 21st?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I know, but I have to check again in various
21revisionists meetings -- no, excuse me, no. David Irving
22was invited by this camp in Spain and spoke.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Oh, really? Do you know when?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] When?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In that same, I have lost it, I have to check it, but in
1the late 80s, early 90s. I read the diaries from 1989 to
2 '93 and there he was in Spain. But it must have been
3quite successful, but I have to recall when it was.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Invited by?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Give me a minute, so I will say to you in a minute.
6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Invited by Verala, is that what you are saying?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, so they know each other. You know, it is a little
8tiny group who interacted between each other on various
9levels and various levels of intensity, so sometimes I get
10mixed up but not on the basic things.
11 MR RAMPTON: Looking at the whole spread of material,
12Professor, looking at the whole spread of material which
13you have been through in detail, so far as Mr Irving's
14connections with these various people and groups are
15concerned, how deep would you say that his involvement in
16these affairs is?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think very -- he was involved very much in this whole
18affairs. Not to get mixed up, I did a show picture to see
19this ----
20 THE INTERPRETER: A graph.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- a graph to represent this interactions, and you have,
22you know, the whole bench of revisionists from Tony
23Hancock, Peter Verala, Staglich, Valendi, Otto Ernst
24Remer, Ahmed Rami, Zundel, Zundel as one of the main
25persons, together with Christophersen and Mark Rebo of IHR
26in California, on the one hand, then you have an
1interconnecting person, Karl Philipp, then you have, on
2the other hand, the Althans group and the person himself
3especially, and then you have some Austrians, by the way,
4very famous right-wing extremists, like Rephandel in
5Skrinski, who are known to David Irving, then you have the
6DVU connection we did not talk about in the '80s.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, Gerhard Frey?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Gerhard Frey, this not legalized extremist party, then you
9have the interaction we talked about, the Gunter Deckert
10of NPD then in the '90s radicalized NPD, and you have the
11neo-Nazis we spoke about at the beginning. So you have a
12whole, you know, if you want to centre Irving, you can do
13so. You know, they are the revisionists, if I may say so,
14they are the neoNazis, they are the Austrians, not so
15intense, intense, the DVU Frey, the Deckert NPD, the
16Althans, the Philipp person as person transmitters and,
17you know, organizers. Then there is another bunch of
18people out of the late '70s and early '80s of the then
19active network of right-wing extremists -- just I could
20name some of them.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] We will stay with what we have at the moment because it is
22already rather indigestible. Could we have a look at that
23beautiful document? When did you make it?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the last days.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. I have not seen it before.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Because to get, you know ----
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] Could I have a look at it because if it looks impressive,
2we had better have it copied. Mr Irving will see it too
3in a moment. It is slightly untidy, Professor.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I know. My writing is limited to the degree of being
5very clear, clean.
6 MR IRVING: Perhaps you could wait until we see how many names
7we can knock off this before he makes the ----
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not particularly enthusiastic about
10 MR RAMPTON: Right. Give the drawing back to the Professor
11then. I can tell your Lordship this, that there are diary
12entries in Mr Irving's diary for November 1989 which
13describe a speaking tour of Spain starting on -- it is a
14very short one, two days, three days.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I recall.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Four days. That is not short. I could not speak for four
17days. Four days starting on November 17th 1989 seems to
18have been organized by Verala?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is what I meant.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is what you meant, yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Thank you.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] There is also a Rami section, my Lord, in the RWE files in
23the second one at tab 18. Thank you very much.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not got a tab 18. I did look for Rami
25and I ----
26 MR RAMPTON: He is right at the back.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not in the index, but at the back. You
2are quite right.
3 MR RAMPTON: He is not in the index, but he is at the back.
4There is not an awful lot on him. I think seven
5entries ----
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
7 MR RAMPTON: --- involving Mr Irving. Thank you, Professor,
8for the moment. We will need your help because I am now
9going to show these tapes. Miss Rogers, my Lord, before
10we start looking at the films, has prepared a
11chronological, not exhaustive, list of Mr Irving's
12speeches starting in January 1983 and ending in November
131988 upon which your Lordship will find or in which your
14Lordship will find the three or four that we are going to
15look at now.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. Where shall we put
18 MR RAMPTON: In front of RWE1, I should have thought. One for
19the witness, I think. Who is going to control this ----
20 MR IRVING: This is not an exhaustive list of speeches, is it?
21 MR RAMPTON: No, I said it was not.
22 MR IRVING: It is a very selective list. I mean, in some years
23I spoke 190 times in one year.
24 MR RAMPTON: I quite agree. When Mr Irving is speaking to the
25East Grinstead RSPCA I have not put in a ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is selective.
1 MR RAMPTON: It is selective indeed. I would like to show the
2tapes. Where are the tapes, is the first question?
3I think, my Lord, the safest way of dealing with this, if
4I may suggest it, is if Miss Rogers is allowed to stand up
5there, do you mind doing that, and with help stop it at
6the right places.
7 MR IRVING: My Lord, when it comes to the speech upon Halle,
8I would to like to know whether it is the raw, uncut
9footage they are going to show.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we pause before Halle? Is Halle the
11last one? I have the impression it was.
12 MR RAMPTON: Yes, Halle is the last one. I cannot answer
13Mr Irving's question on that, I am afraid, I just do not
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but he can make his objection to it then.
16Is there a transcript of Halle?
17 MR RAMPTON: There is not a transcript of any of them.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But it is a disclosure of -- he is on the website.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but I would like to see the transcript
20all the same. I suspect in the end, Mr Irving, I am
21probably going to have to see it and then form a view
22about your objections, if there is no transcript.
23 MR IRVING: Precisely. Your Lordship will be familiar from the
24inter partes correspondence that there was a major dispute
25about the Halle tape.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I am not conscious of that at all.
1 MR IRVING: It was concealed from me in discovery and I had to
2conduct several interlocutory actions under the rules of
3discovery to force the -- it was accidently discovered to
4me, the raw tapes.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, you got it in the end.
6 MR IRVING: And we had a lot of trouble over it.
7 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, may I sit while this is going on.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course, please.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is in Hagenau, if I may say.
10 MR RAMPTON: It seems to be a still.
11 (The video tape was played)
12 MR RAMPTON: Can we stop there, please? Who is that speaking
13in the middle?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This person to the left -- maybe David Irving can help us.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not sure that is quite the way to
16conduct this.
17 MR IRVING: I would be happy to assist if I recognize him.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I will not ask you to, let us just
19see what the witness can say.
20 MR IRVING: It is not Valendi, as far as I know.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I am not sure. That is why -- but I heard that he
22organized the debate.
23 MR RAMPTON: Who is the one in the middle with the stripy tie?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Now, in the back not seeing is Ernst Zundel, to the right
25it is Faurisson.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] So it is Faurisson -- can we just go back a couple of
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is Ernst Zundel in the back.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, I see. That is Faurisson on the right with the
4stripe with the white shirt, is it?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] On the right side.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you.
7 (The video continued to be played)
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] "I would have given a gift to him when I realized that he
9was here". That is the gist. "So this devil lie that
10this Juden pack that the Jews gave to us Germans". That
11is a reference to the so-called Holocaust lie. This was a
12last sentence.
13 MR IRVING: I was not aware we were going to be shown edited
14gobbets like this. We have no idea what that little piece
15or snatch of conversation was, whether he was quoting from
16a book or quoting from something that was said or what.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not think he is was quoting from a
18book. I think, Mr Irving, I understand your concern
19but ----
20 MR IRVING: If we are just looking at a rogues gallery, that is
21perfectly proper use of this footage.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think in the end what is going to have to
23happen is that I see all this material because it is
24impossible for me to form a view because I do not know
25what is coming next. We have not seen you at all but I
26know you were there, so I expect we are going to see you.
1 MR IRVING: Well, we do not know if I am actually there at the
2time these people were there or whether they are saying
3that or not.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us wait and see when you feature.
5 MR IRVING: It has been heavily edited there, of course.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There to the back, if I may say so, this is the person in
7the middle now, Christian Worch.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The young one?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The young one, right, in the middle, right in the middle.
10This was just a second back, if I may ask you -- now go
11further -- this person, so far I can identify him, of
12course it is with limits, as you can imagine, on the right
13side, seems to be Staglich.
14 MR RAMPTON: With his head by the window?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Stop there, please. What is Mr Irving talking about in
17that extract?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You know the reference is he is referring to the alleged
19excesses of eyewitnesses with respect to the Holocaust
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Pause please.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And then ----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, pause. When you said "excesses", do you mean that
24there are more survivors than there should be?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think exaggerations I think is the
1 MR RAMPTON: Exaggerations, that is why I interrupted you.
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, and with this he very cynically, I would say, says
3OK, "There was one, there was just one", that is the gist
4of it, so far as I read it. Maybe there can be more
5correct translations of these wordings. "There is one man
6gas chamber there, you know, a kind of Sedan chair and
7soldiers carried that around the landscape and then, like
8a telephone cell, you have a ring and the soldier says,
9 'OK, it is for you, Jew'". So this is the gist of it so
10far I read it but ----
11 MR IRVING: Excuse me.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- of course Mr Irving said it so he may ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- translate it more precisely.
15 MR IRVING: The word was not "excuse you", "it is for you,
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, we are going to get into a frightful
18tangle if we are going to go through the films having
19simultaneous translations.
20 MR RAMPTON: No, no, not simultaneous translations, but it
21would be a false exercise on my part if Mr Irving were
22talking about the wild flowers in Alsace at that point.
23One has to know what the gist of these meetings were
24about ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I quite agree. No, I am just thinking it is
26better ----
1 MR RAMPTON: --- for them to have any point at all.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Don't let us all talk at once it would be
3better if we had a translation.
4 MR RAMPTON: It would be much better if we had a translation.
5Before we close the case we will get translations and
6transcripts, I expect. I will do my very best, but at the
7moment, I am sorry, we do not have them.
8 THE INTERPRETER: It is easy to translate phrase by phrase,
9this passage.
10 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, I cannot hear.
11 THE INTERPRETER: It is easy to translate this passage phrase
12by phrase.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That will take a very long time.
14 MR RAMPTON: Don't let us do that now.
15 MR IRVING: The other point I would ask in cross-examination of
16this particular passage is that we have seen me speaking,
17we have heard me speaking and now we see instantly picture
18cross-cuts to a laughing audience, and we have no way of
19knowing, for they have only got one camera there, and it
20is done by clever editing. We do not know what they are
21laughing at.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I understand that point. Whether it is a
23good one or not, I am not so sure, but I understand the
24point you are making.
25 MR IRVING: It is the editing point again, my Lord. Your
26Lordship would not allow the introduction of an edited
1document in which bits have been put in and bits have been
2taken out. This is a document.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I entirely understand the point. Mr Rampton,
4can you tell me this, and I should have asked before you
5started playing it, who actually made this film? ----
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That was done by those who organized the conference.
7 MR RAMPTON: I see.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was then given to Michael Schmidt. Michael Schmidt was
9the person who was in this revisionist and the other scene
10for quite a period of time, and then had four days of
11videos. He was given this video by one of the main
12organizers, so far as I recall, and by Ernst Zundel
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right, let us carry on.
15 MR RAMPTON: I just want to chase that up. Did Schmidt then
16make a documentary film using this material?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, he did so, but the basic clips, of whatever he had of
18ours, of course, documented by the documenter of this
19conference, so we have again a problem of documents.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] So far as we can tell, that is original film of the
21meeting at which we saw Mr Irving.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Organized by themselves.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who did the editing, that is the point?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Of course, Michael Schmidt did the editing. He shortened
25it and, of course, they had a longer version given by the
26organizers of this conference, that is to say, by Zundel
1or Christopherson, so far as s I recall, by Zundel.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say Schmidt is a Revisionist himself?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No. Michael Schmidt did ask to film the scene, and that
4caused, later on, a lot of problems for Schmidt and the
5scene. They got in an argument, but he managed to make a
6long film.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But is Schmidt a right-wing extremist?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, he is not.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far, he presents himself in the public and buys
12 MR IRVING: He has written a book, has he not?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
14 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think the question that you are really
15asking is who has edited this film that is in the machine.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I was not asking that.
17 MR IRVING: It has been re-edited by the Defence solicitors, of
19 MR RAMPTON: No.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, can you just remain silent for a
21moment. Has it been re-edited by your team?
22 MR RAMPTON: Yes, but it has been re-edited in such a way --
23yes, is the answer, I think. Can I just find out what
24actually did happen, because I was not there. (Pause for
25consultation). Yes, now I do have the full story. That is
26taken from Schmidt's film, my Lord, which was broadcast on
1Dispatches in this country. The commentary is in English
2with a German accent, as one can hear. What Miss Rogers
3and the solicitors did was to take out as much editorial
4content as they possibly could, including emotive stuff
5like music, if it has not an original place in the
6programme, and as much commentary as possible.
7 MR IRVING: My Lord, If that were true, of course, there would
8be English subtitles as well, but there are not any. How
9would the English Dispatches audience have understood what
10David Irving was saying in German.
11 MR RAMPTON: Because the commentary is in English in a German
13 MR IRVING: We have listened to it ourselves. It is me
14speaking in German, it is Zundel speaking in German and
15there are no subtitles at all.
16 MR RAMPTON: That is not commentary; that is original speech
17about putting Jews into telephone boxes so as to kill
19 MR IRVING: It has been twice edited and is a totally
20unsatisfactory document.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It seems really to have been edited three
22times, probably originally by the people who organized
23Hagenau, then by Schmidt and then by your team.
24 MR RAMPTON: It matters not the slightest. If Mr Irving
25disputes that that is him speaking those words in that
26company with those other people there, by all means let
1him do so but, once he accepts that that is an authentic
2record, not a complete record but an authentic record of
3what happened, then it becomes admissible evidence. What
4weight is attached to it is another question.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is right as far as the identity of
6other people are concerned. I am not happy with using
7what they said in the absence of a ----
8 MR IRVING: Complete transcription.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- of at least a translation. So shall we
10carry on for the moment? We can come back to these films
11when there is a translation available, but shall we carry
12on for the moment just using them to illustrate who was
13present at these meetings who Professor Funke is able to
15 MR IRVING: My Lord, the volume control will solve the
16problem. If the sound was turned down ----
17 MR RAMPTON: No. When Mr Irving is speaking, I want his words
19 MR IRVING: These are the redacted words as selected by the
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am going to say is that we will
22certainly use these films to see who was at the various
23meetings. If reliance is placed on what Mr Irving said at
24the meetings, then there must be a translation made rather
25than have it translated in the way that it is at the
1 MR RAMPTON: There will be.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So, shall we proceed on that basis?
3 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
4 (The video taped continued).
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Who is the man in the middle clapping?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is again Ernst Zundel to the right of the middle and
7to the left is Staglich.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you. Sitting next to each other?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is that one I think.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is Hagenau.
12 MR RAMPTON: Now comes Munich, I think, in April 1990, does it
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: 20th - 22nd April, is that right?
15 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The 21st.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Again, this is taken from the Dispatches programme.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Your Lordship, the 21st.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] This is altogether a bigger event.
20 (The video tape continued).
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Pause there, please.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the middle to the left, this is Raymund Bachman.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Who is he?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is an Austrian right-wing extremist who is perceived as
25a very good speaker. Then to the right of the middle,
26this is the Althans.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] In the middle?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the middle to the right, the right to Mr Bachman, the
3next is Ewald Althans and the third person is also active
4in this scene, but I cannot recall the name. I can check
5it if I have a bit of time.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] What does the rest of the banner above the hand say?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] "Wahrheit macht frei" David Irving and the like, I do not
9 MR IRVING: "Ein Englander kemft um die jede Deutschlands".
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] "Ein Englander kemft um die jede Deutschlands", thank you,
11Mr Irving.
12 MR RAMPTON: We know, but what is the message of "Wahrheit
13macht frei" in this context?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It means basically that truth produces freedom and relief,
15and that truth is related to a rechange of the Holocaust
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Does is have any resonance with some language used during
18the Nazi period?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we all know.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It has resonance to "Arbeit macht frei".
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Which we find where?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the concentration camps but, of course, I do not know
23if this is directly related to it but it has
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] You can leave that guesswork to us, thank you, Professor.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
1 (The video tape continued).
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is Michael Kuhnen. This man in the middle now, you
3see him.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: With the dark hair.
5 MR RAMPTON: Without the glasses.
6 MR IRVING: Which one?
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Dark hair, without the glasses.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right to the person with the glasses. You see it?
9 MR RAMPTON: That one?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This one, right, excuse me. This is -- excuse me.
11 MR IRVING: That is Remer.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Staglich?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, to the right one. This is, in the middle, Otto Ernst
15 (Video continues.)
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This speaker says that Michael Kuhnen is in the meeting
17and also Manfred Roeder. Manfred Roeder was convicted by
18a court of having done terrorist activities against asylum
19seekers. He got out of prison some time before this
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] What terrible things did he do to asylum seekers?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He arsoned their house.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Arsoned?
24 MR IRVING: Set fire to it.
25 MR RAMPTON: Yes, set fire to it.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Set fire, thank you.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] Were the people inside?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Two people were killed.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] You say he is welcomed to this meeting?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
5 MR IRVING: He was a lawyer, was he not?
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, will you get your chance. I do
7not really think we can make this too conversational.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK.
9 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But I may state that Manfred Roeder is not Jurgen Rieger -
11this is a very famous right-wing extremist lawyer.
12 (The video tape continued).
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we pause there. Do you recognise that
15 MR IRVING: It's Anthony Hancock.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
17 MR RAMPTON: Who is Anthony Hancock? We will not have evidence
18from Mr Irving at this stage.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We do not have want Dispatches conclusions
20after that.
21 MR RAMPTON: What?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We do not want Dispatches conclusions after
23their detective work; we want this there witness to
25 MR RAMPTON: No, I want to know what this witness says. I do
26not want to hear Mr Irving says either.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, you said Hancock?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Tony or Anthony Hancock, it is put differently. He is one
3of the very active British revisionists, active also in a
4political sense, and in close connection to David Irving,
5very close.
6 (The video continues.)
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we pause there. I am not understanding
8what this is being used for.
9 MR RAMPTON: That is Mr Hancock lying about his name and his
10reason for being there.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So what, if I may say so?
12 MR RAMPTON: Well, it is there; it does no do any harm.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think it possibly does. All I am
14concerned to get out of this, as I understand it, is who
15was present at the meetings at which Mr Irving either
16spoke or was himself present.
17 MR RAMPTON: This is such a person.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well fine, but we have established that he
19was there. Why do we have him being evasive on camera,
20because that seems to me to be prejudicial without being
22 MR RAMPTON: It may be so, but the fact is this witness has
23told your Lordship that this man has a close connection
24with Mr Irving.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, fine, but the fact he is lying
26presumably out of Mr Irving's hearing seems me to be
1stretching this all too far.
2 MR RAMPTON: No. If he has a reason to lie, it may be inferred
3in this context what it is.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we fast forward to the next bit which
5identifies somebody else as having being present.
6 (The video continues.)
7 MR RAMPTON: I think we do need to see those gentlemen. Who
8are they?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] These are Munich skinheads, staging something - it is
10difficult do explain ----
11 MR IRVING: It is a stunt.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is very simple, on the other hand. They are staging a
13thing that was already staged in 1978. It is a repetition
14 ----
15 MR RAMPTON: Right.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Where Christian Worch, the same Christian Worch, and
17Michael Kuhnen said similar things. Here it is said:
18"I ass believe still what is told to me". It is a clear
19reference to the so-called Auschwitz lie.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] You mean: "I am an ass because I believe that Auschwitz
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, "I just believe everything I am told".
24 MR RAMPTON: Yes, including Auschwitz, is that right?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is a clear-cut reference to the ideas of the Holocaust
26denier, that it did not happen but: "I, ass, believe that
1it was told that Holocaust happened".
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Funke, is this something that was
3done on stage, as it were, at the meeting in Munich on the
421st April?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was on stage during this Congress, 21st April, in
7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] On 21st April?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 1990.
9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] On stage, as it were?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] On stage.
11 MR IRVING: My Lord, that photograph is not actually on the
12stage. It is somewhere in the audience or in the
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me. You are right. He is right. It is not on
15stage, but it is staged.
16 (The video continued)
17They are singing the first verse of the national anthem
18that is, since 45, forbidden. It refers to the Reich in
19the space of the Reich (German). That is a clear cut ----
20 THE INTERPRETER: From the river Mars to the River Memel.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] One river is in Belgium. The other river is north to East
22Prussia. Because of that and the first beginning of this
23first verse, Deutschland uberalles, Germany above all, the
24first verse of the national anthem is forbidden since
25decades, so this is a clear cut attempt to attack it.
26 MR RAMPTON: Do you mean it is forbidden by law?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is forbidden by law.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] And has been since 1945?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not 1945, but early on in the Federal Republic
4 (The video continued)
5You see again both, to the left Ewald Althans and on the
6right Christian Worch. This is, I would interpret, a
7telling picture of the organizational activities and
8activists. I think this person -- excuse me -- but I am
9not totally ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are not totally sure I do not think
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not totally sure. This is again Staglich and then the
13next, it is Karl Philipps, this one, so far. I know but,
14because I do not know him personally and I have just some
15photos, I am very cautious, but I think, as this is told
16in the TV, this is Thomas Heinke, the chief of a skinhead
17faction, very violent activists group in Beiderfeld, this
18is in north west Germany.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How do you know it is Heinke?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is said by different sources, and by those who did the
21Michael Schmidt film, who helped to do the Michael Schmidt
22film, so one of the best experts I had, I must say.
23 (The video continued).
24 MR RAMPTON: Can we stop there please? Do you know what is
25taking place here? This looks like a march?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. This is a debated march to the Feltan Halle of the
121st April Congress, and it was then later on cut by
2police intervention.
3 MR IRVING: Can I ask you if you ----
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you will have your chance, Mr Irving.
5 MR IRVING: It is important we should know if they are marching
6northwards or southwards, my Lord.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You mean to or from the conference hall? Do
8you know the answer to that.
9 MR IRVING: Is that the Vienna Strasse in Munich.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you know whether they are going to the
11conference or away from it?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They go away from the conference, but I do not know to
13what direction, north, south, because I am not familiar
14with Munich.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Let us get on with this.
16 (The video continued)
17Here, stop, please. Back a bit, if I may ask that.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is again Michael Kuhnen, so you see here both of
19them. We are talking about twenty minutes or an hour ago,
20on the one hand David Irving and here Michael Kuhnen.
21 MR IRVING: Can I ask you again, can you recognize whether
22I was walking northwards up Vienna Strasse from the
23background there?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] As I said, I am not familiar with----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you will have your chance. Can
26you just sit patiently.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Here you see the Reichskriegsflagge.
2 MR RAMPTON: You will have to explain Reichskriegsflagge,
3strictly speaking, because this is an English court.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Shall I do it now?
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes because we are going to see it again. Pause. Down in
6the bottom left hand corner of the picture there is a flag
7with an eagle in it. Right?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. Right.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. It is easy for you now. Reichskriegsflagge is what?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is a flag that was used by nationalists before the
11First World War, and during the Weimer republic, but it is
12here, you see there Michael Kuhnen, and there the
13Reichskriegsflagge. Michael Kuhnen, for example, said
14that we use this flag as long as we cannot use the
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Just so that we get it right, a Reichskriegsflagge is a
17Reichs war flag, is that right?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you very much.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You know the German Nationalists, before the National
21Socialists came to influence in the late 20s, they were
22very anti-democratic in their own ideas, to a degree
23anti-Semitic too, and of course, especially before the
24First World War, very much war mongering. So this is a
25kind of reference to these kind of ideas.
26 (The video continued).
1 MR IRVING: That again does not appear to come from the
2Dispatches programme, my Lord. There was no commentary of
3any kind. It appears to have been just glued together
4from various odd bits and pieces.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that right?
6 MR RAMPTON: No. I did not do it, but I am bound to say I find
7these repeated attacks on the integrity of my junior and
8my solicitors perfectly absurd.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it is attack on anyone's
11 MR RAMPTON: Of course it is.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If your instructions are, or you are told by
13Miss Rogers that that does come from Dispatches, for my
14part, I would accept it straightaway.
15 MR RAMPTON: I am told it is all part of the same occasion and
16this is what the Professor says.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is all part of the Dispatches programme?
18That is the point.
19 MR RAMPTON: Is it? Somebody must know the answer. I did not
20do it.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I know. Can I say?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You had better wait and see.
23 MR RAMPTON: It is partly from the actual programme and it is
24partly from what I think are called the rushes, the uncut
25material taken on the same occasion. If Mr Irving says
26this is not Munich on 21st April 1990, let him say so.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is Dispatches material, but it was but
2not actually part of the broadcast?
3 MR RAMPTON: It was stuff that was not transmitted, yes.
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, of course, the point I am making is that,
5if there is cross cutting to indicate there are people
6over there and I am over there, and there is subsequent,
7quite clearly from the quality of the film footage, they
8are taken on different cameras.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, what I have said is that these
10films are going to be admitted for the purpose of
11demonstrating, if they do demonstrate it, who was present
12at meetings at which you spoke or were present yourself.
13 MR IRVING: I am aware of that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that should be the limit of it. Are
15we finished with Munich?
16 MR RAMPTON: I think we are finished with Munich. I use
17Mr Irving's words in a minute. There is an aspect of this
18on which I also rely. It is not simply who else was
19there, and I have said this before, and what was said by
20the various people, including Mr Irving, which is
21obviously important because we are talking about groups of
22like minded people, it is, to use Mr Irving's phrase, the
23rabble rousing element of it, which one will see very
24clearly when one comes to Halle.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: When Mr Irving can be seen to be present and
26involved, yes.
1 MR RAMPTON: Rabble rousing.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Otherwise no. I think that must be the
4 MR RAMPTON: You will see the rabble. When you get to Halle,
5you will see the skinhead rabble and then you will see
6Mr Irving standing on a scaffold rousing the rabble.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
8 MR RAMPTON: This is a film made by Mr Irving himself,
9I think. It comes from his own video, my Lord, called
10"Ich komme wieder". It has probably been edited out of
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is this?
13 MR RAMPTON: Passau. This is No. 3, Passau DVU. It is very
15 (The video continued)
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is Gerhard Frey, this person.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is Gerhard Frey.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, this person in the middle here. Left to the -- no,
19right from here, right to David Irving, there you see
20David Irving and on the right you see next to the middle
21Gerhard Frey, the DVU chief, the chief of the German
22Volksunion, of the Deutsche Volksunion, the leader.
23 (The video continued)
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is it.
25 MR RAMPTON: That is it.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was that Passau in '87 or?
1 MR RAMPTON: Yes?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, not in '87.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In '91.
5 MR RAMPTON: The next one, my Lord, is the long one, the
6Leuchter Congress. I would like the people in charge of
7the machine to zip through -- I do not want a whole lot of
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I agree.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] A whole lot of speeches from this group, just to know who
11they are and get a flavour of the occasion.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is Ewald Althans. It is before the museum in Munich.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the date of this?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 23rd March '91.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
16 MR RAMPTON: Can you pause there a moment? I would like to
17tell his Lordship or I will ask a question, who made this
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is shown in the beginning, it is Samisdart(?). This is
20the name of the Samisdart publisher, Ernst Zundel, in
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] Zundel?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Zundel.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Commercially made, was it?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was -- it was remade for publishing.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So it was cut and there are written things on it, so if
2you are interested we can go into details, but...
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Excuse me, this is a film made by Mr Zundel for his own
4purposes, professionally made, so it has been cut and
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Exactly.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] And was it to be sold and distributed to the world at
8large or whoever wanted it?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I am not sure if it is only for limited purposes, of
10limited audiences and publics, I do not know.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] But the important thing about this is it is Zundel's
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Exactly.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] It was disclosed by Mr Irving and so far -- you have seen
15it before.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] The Defendants have not tampered with it?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The Defendants?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Tampered, fiddled?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no, it is just by Zundel.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is an entire Zundel document?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you very much.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is Mrs Von Tonningen. This is a person from the
25Netherlands, a networker of high skills, very identified
26with the National Socialist cause. This is the famous
1Ahmed Rami with his very anti-Semitic speech. This is the
2translator. It is Bouffeur from France who is also active
3in the revisionist scene.
4 This is another translator, Fritz Becker from
5Einshaus. Henry Rock, he is a stated, he is an author, a
6Gerstein expert and editor of the French Zeitschift Review
7D'histoire Revisionist.
8 MR IRVING: My Lord, can I draw your attention to say that so
9far we have not seen my face once on the screen yet.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was looking out for you.
11 MR IRVING: Yes. You will recognise me when I come.
12 (The video continued)
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Can I ----
14 THE INTERPRETER: Since we are playing the sound, would you
15like a running translation of it?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think we are not going to do it that
18 MR RAMPTON: No. We will get it transcribed and translated in
19each case.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is the right way.
21 MR RAMPTON: We might have had enough of this.
22 MR IRVING: I was enjoying that!
23 MR RAMPTON: Could we fast forward, please, since we do not
24know what he is saying?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think, from what I could gather,
26there was very much that was of any particular materiality
1it is a chronicle of the ----
2 MR RAMPTON: On this occasion it may be more a question of who
3else was there.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is the point, is it not?
5 MR RAMPTON: And what they were saying.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who is he?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Is this Staglich again?
8 MR RAMPTON: It is the same old faces.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is one person there ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you go back a bit?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- who will speak later, Peter Verala to the right, just
12to the right. This is Pedro Verala. He stood all the
13time in the back of the stage. This is Paul Knutsen a
14Danish activist of the same scene, both revisionists and
15right wing extremist activities involved. This is now
16Pedro Verala speaking and having a tape of the Haute Lyons
17D'Egrelle(?). That was the Lyons D'Egrelle.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was that Althans?
19 MR RAMPTON: Althans in the ----
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is Althans again, right.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I thought so.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is now Ditlieb Felderer, a Swedish activist of the
24 MR RAMPTON: Is it a man or a woman -- oh, it is a man.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There is Christian Worch, organizer of the security aspect
26of this conference, with his troopers, if I may say so.
1This is again Raymund Bachman of Austria. To the left you
2see Christian Worch. They sing again the first verse of
3the National Anthem that is forbidden. This is a
4reference to the berkhof(?) of Hitler, so far as I see
5it. This is it.
6 MR IRVING: My Lord, your Lordship will have noticed that apart
7from my actual appearance, there is no appearance of
8myself in that video, if you see what I am saying?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will have an opportunity to say whether
10you were or were not there for the whole of it.
11 MR IRVING: While the images were fresh in your Lordship's
12memory, I wished to...
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, all right, well, that is fair enough.
14 MR RAMPTON: How long is this one?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is a rally in Halle.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this the last one, Halle?
17 MR RAMPTON: The last one.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we try to deal with it?
19 MR RAMPTON: Yes. We will deal with it, if your Lordship will
20permit, by the same means.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. We have actually got a transcript of
23 MR RAMPTON: Have we?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Tab 11?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is Gottfried Kussel.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this Halle already?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Just pause a second. I do not know whether it is -- at
3least I assume it is the same tab 11 in D2(iii)?
4 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship is miles ahead of me, D2(iii).
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it November 9th 1991, Professor Funke?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is 9th November of '91.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it is the same one.
8 MR RAMPTON: That is absolutely right, my Lord.
9 MR IRVING: Can we establish whether this is from Dispatches or
10the raw uncut footage, please?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is a proper enquiry.
12 MR RAMPTON: Of course it is. I do not know the answer. That
13is all. It is taken from This Week, not Dispatches, and
14it is such footage as we have.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we are getting the whole lot, in other
17 MR RAMPTON: Yes, but again I suggest that we do not need to --
18we identify Kussel.
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, if I can just ask you to pause for a
20moment? There are three video tapes. There is the "This
21Week" programme as broadcast and there are two video tapes
22which fell into our hands by accident, containing the raw
23uncut footage of this programme. The "This Week"
24programme is heavily edited and, as a matter of interest,
25I would just like to know what the court is going to be
26shown now, whether it is the raw, uncut footage.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: "This Week", I think, is what is being shown
2and the whole of "This Week", as I understand it.
3 MR IRVING: I understood Miss Rogers to say it was such footage
4as they had.
5 MR RAMPTON: It is not edited. You can see that from the
6timing ----
7 MR IRVING: So this is the raw, uncut footage?
8 MR RAMPTON: --- thing. That is why it is rather long and, I
9am afraid, it is very "samey", but the sameness is rather
10striking so perhaps we should continue in fast forward for
11a bit.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Exactly the same basis as before. Yes?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] As I said, this is Gottfried Kussel marching at the top so
14representing that he is the successor of ----
15 MR RAMPTON: Excuse me. When you get to Kussel being
16interviewed, could you stop it, please, because I want to
17hear ----
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] By the way, this is the main transparent -- banner, thank
19you, showing that, you know, Reiner Sonntag, Rudolf Hess
20and a third person. These are the matters of the Reich.
21This matter of the Reich, you see it down.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Matters of ----
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Matters of the Reich, Rudolf Hess in the middle, Reiner
24Sonntag to the left and Michael Kuhnen to the right. I
25have to say that Reiner Sonntag was a neo-Nazi activist in
26Dresden of the same camp, of the neo-Nazi camp, and was
1killed by non-political reasons, as far as the record is
2there. Michael Kuhnen died by disease in April '91.
3 MR RAMPTON: Right, thank you.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is Deutsche TV. You see now all the political little
5tiny important for them and for the scene groups, and here
6this is the political arm of the Kuhnen crew or the
7Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. So a group that is described by
8all sources, including the official ones in Germany as
9neo-National Socialists.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] What significance are the colours black, white and red, if
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is again schwarz, weiss, rot, black, white ----
13 THE INTERPRETER: Black, white and red?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- and red, reference to the Nationalistic cause to as
15long as they are not allowed to use swastikas, swastika
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Carry on.
18 (The video continued)
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is a bit quick. I cannot identify the persons by this
20speed. Here again you ----
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Continue with the ----
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is the Reichskriegsflagge again. The police
23sheltering the demonstration. Ah, maybe you go a bit
24back, if I may ask you? OK, now with tone, with sound.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Stop there, what?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This, OK.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] What are they shouting first of all?
2 THE INTERPRETER: "We'll get you all"?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
4 MR RAMPTON: "Alle wir kriegen Euch"?
5 THE INTERPRETER: "We'll get you all".
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] "Wir kriegen Euch alle". "We get you all".
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Who is "all", who is "you"?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is a slogan that is used by this very aggressive
9demonstrations and attack attempts on asylum seekers home
10in the early 1990s, so I did book on the Rostock event
11where this kind of attack of assylum seeker home where
12this again was shouted. So, it is a very aggressive, "We
13get you all".
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but it is xenophobia, it is not
15specifically anti-Semitic?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, but it can turn because often they are both and they
17were asked to be both, anti-Semitic destroying cemeteries
18of Jews, and be against foreigners. This is Deutsche
19Hessen, German Hesser, and there to the right you have one
20of the other main active neo-Nazis leaders thinks Heinz
21Reisz, R-E-I-S-Z. He is one of the active persons in
22Hesser. This is a run down region of ----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you pause there a moment? Professor, have you tried
24to estimate or do you know how many people were at this
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was estimated by various sources around 5 to 600.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] The pictures we have seen so far are mostly, not entirely,
2are of what one might call skinheads wearing what the
3English call "bovver" boots. To what extent were they
4characteristic of the audience?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They are very characteristic. You have here a clear cut
6sign or picture, better to say, of several, you know,
7groupings coming together. The basis of them are these
8often without hair, you know ----
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Skinheads?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- short hair, dressed and boots of this kind where you
11can do this kind of marching things, using this
12Reichskriegsflagge as described, wearing special jackets.
13They are the core of the skinhead, the violent skinhead,
14scene. This is the one level. The other level is that
15all the little tiny groups of the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft,
16of the Kuhnen crew, after his death, the Kuhnen crew, of
17course, with Worch and others are there joining, and also
18those who are a bit of distance, you can see it a bit
19later, coming to join because there is a joint effort to
20go to the next step of this strategy.
21 The third dimension, the third level, so to
22speak, is that also the NPD, the normal right-wing
23extremists, if I may say so, not so violent, not so
24neoNazi orientated, come to a degree also and are invited
25by this already mentioned to Thomas Dienel, the chief of
26the NPD of Tourignia, Tourignia at that point, at that
1time, and the second chief or one of the second chiefs of
2the Federal level of the NPD.
3 So you have an attempt to join on the very
4radical level the whole scenery to make the next
5strategical step. You have to recall, if I may say this
6as a last sentence, that in the period between '89 and
7this very day since the fall of the Wall, two years were
8gone, and in this they could establish this kind of
9movement of male youngsters to be as furious against
10foreigners as anti-Semitic and for Aryan race based state.
11 Last sentence again, the amount of violence, you
12know, were more intense in '91 than in '90, and again
13in '92. So they are at a juncture of spreading their
14influence in the violent youngsters' scene, especially in
15East Germany.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do we see Mr Irving on the way in ----
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We will see.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] --- as it were, to the meeting? We will see him, will
20 MR RAMPTON: I do not know if we see him on the march.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] We certainly see him on the scaffold in due course?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was really wondering. Yes,
24I see.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is -- you can go on. This is another Krubrich is the
26name, another activist. Can you go a bit back, if I may
1ask you? You see there the Leipzig(?) grouping come and
2join to, tried to join.
3 (The video continued)
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] With sound, please?
5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Can you stop there, please? What are they shouting?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot hear it.
7 THE INTERPRETER: A moment ago they shouted "Aus lande aus" and
8the last bit was unintelligible, so "Foreigners out" they
9shouted before.
10 MR IRVING: Would you comment or can you see red flags there in
11the background?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. These are not flags of, if I may interpret it, if
13you allow?
14 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] These are not red flags of leftists, as you may think.
16These are flags of the national bloc. This is very much
17to the hardcore right-wing extremists of the neo-Nazi
18scene. Again, a kind of revolutionary, representing a
19kind of national socialist revolutionary strategy of
20strasse faction way back to the early '30s, and they are
21of the rural area, this group. "Rotfront verrecke" was
22shouted. "Rotfront verrecke".
23 THE INTERPRETER: "Red front, go and die".
24 MR RAMPTON: Sorry, I did not hear that, what?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This to the right in the middle is Thomas Dienel, the
26already mentioned Thomas Dienel. In the middle you have
1Christian Worch. So the both organizers, as I alluded to
2before, and to the left, this is so far as I know, an
3activist of the region of Halle.
4 (The video continued)
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is, excuse me, this flag is the flag of Christian
6Worch's group of Hamburg, the nationalist NL.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Which flag is that at the back?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This black, white.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, thank you.
10 (The video continued)
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is Worch has spoken.
12 MR IRVING: My Lord, can I pause a moment? My Lord, I do not
13think you were looking, but there was a cut between the
14introductory passage where your Lordship starting marking
15and then the camera moved its position. I think it would
16have taken him probably five, 10 or 15 seconds to move to
17a new position during which you missed, obviously, 15
18seconds of intervening text.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long did you speak for?
20 MR IRVING: I was a guest appearance of five minutes, I think,
21altogether. I arrived. I spoke for five minutes and
22I immediately left.
23 MR RAMPTON: The diary says for the appropriate date that he
24made a "rabble rousing 10 or 15 minutes".
25 MR IRVING: 10 or 15 minutes, and if you could just run it back
26just a few seconds, then you will see where the actual
1break occurs.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are right. I was reading but I was
3following it.
4 MR IRVING: There.
5 (The video continued)
6 MR IRVING: Another cut there.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You see "Sieg Heil" shouting. Christian Worch is
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there much more of this?
10 MR RAMPTON: That is about it.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was not a criticism; it is just that I see
12the time.
13 MR RAMPTON: No, I know. We can look at it again at the end of
14the case, if necessary. One sees what one sees and hears
15what one hears.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Five past two.
17 (Luncheon Adjournment).
18 (2.05 p.m.)
19 MR RAMPTON: My examination in chief of Professor Funke has
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought it probably was, Mr Irving.
22 < Cross-Examined by Mr Irving.
23 MR IRVING: Professor Funke, good afternoon. Before we start
24looking at your report, I think it makes sense for me to
25take up some points of what has been said in the
26examination-in-chief while it is still fresh in our
1memory, and particularly some of the things that we have
2seen on the videos. The very last video we saw was the
3events in Halle on November 9th 1991. Is that is correct?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you studied the events of that day in any particular
6detail, looked at the press clippings or other footage
7than we have seen on television?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I tried the best I can.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Am I right in saying that the world's television
10news commentators were there, all the big names, Martin
11Bell, the equivalent of the German television stations
12were there?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There was a lot of coverage about this demonstration, this
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with the fact that German television
16newsreel teams, in order to spice the footage of what they
17are filming, sometimes bribe people in the audience to do
18illegal acts, committing illegal acts?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know about it.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you heard of episodes where, for example, a Frankfurt
21television producer was prosecuted for arranging for
22skinheads to give Hitler salutes?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If you give me evidence, it would be fine to see it and to
24react on this.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] That is a perfectly proper answer.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If this is the case, of course it has to be criticised.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Did you see on the footage that we just saw, when
2these irresponsible shouts from the audience of Siegheil,
3-- which is a Hitler salute, is it not?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you see me put up my hand to tell them to stop?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. At least, you did a kind of gesture, not instigating
7it but ----
8 Q. [Mr Irving] To indicate that it was not welcome?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In a way, yes. I would say so. It is a guess, though, it
10is an interpretation, but definitely you did not ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving] I did not encourage it?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- go with these kind of shoutings at that given moment.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you hear from anyone, or did you see any other film
14footage which suggested that in the first part that was
15missing I had said to the audience, you are a
16predominantly youthful audience?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Please repeat the question, if I may ask.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] In the first passage that was omitted from that, did you
19see any other footage, or hear any tapes, or read any
20suggestions that in that part that was cut out, to which
21I drew his Lordship's attention, I said to the audience
22"You are young people" effectively?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What I recall very vividly is that you referred to the
24future of Germany and alluding to these youngsters there,
26 Q. [Mr Irving] That I said "You are Germany's future"?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Something like this.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] And that "No-one can accuse you of war crimes"?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Something like this, but now we have to get your website
4on the desk so I can interpret it with you together.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you hear on the video that we saw me saying in German,
6as they gave the skinheads the Siegheil salute, did you
7hear me saying, "You should not be coming with the slogans
8of Germany's past"?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Something like this sense. The complete wording I am not
10aware of.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Should not always be thinking about the
13 MR IRVING: Well ----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Same thing.
15 MR IRVING: I was asking for the actual words that I used,
16which were, "You should not be using the slogans of the
17past when I have just described you as being Germany's
18future". Another couple of general questions. Did you
19see the pictures of me standing in my rain coat watching
20this crowd of people coming down the street?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you get the impression from my demeanour that I was
23overjoyed and very happy at what was going on? Or did
24I look rather -- would you describe me -- well, how would
25you describe me? I cannot lead.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot answer this question precisely, but maybe extend
1to two or three further sentences that include my
2picture. That is that you came into the hall, as the
3video showed, the hotel hall, saw the people there, a lot
4of them who were then in the demonstration. You came
5supposedly with Uschi Worch. So you knew, Mr Irving,
6about the character of this whole event, as I said it just
7before the break. The Christian Worch and Uschi Worch
8groupings came into this demonstration. I would think
9that, because of this shouting throughout the
10demonstration -- your Lordship, you saw just a bit of
11it -- there was steadily this kind of "aus aus lande aus"
12shouting, again and again "Siegheil", not only at that
14 THE INTERPRETER: Foreigners out.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] "Out out foreigners out", and this shouting alike, so the
16character of the demonstration would have been very clear
17for you.
18 MR IRVING: Now my question again. Did I look shocked when
19I was standing there in my rain coat?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot say. I really cannot say.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Was I waving my arms enthusiastically, or was I standing
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You did not shout "Siegheil", and you did not make these
24gestures of the Nazi period. I did not see that. This is
25all what I can say.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] This takes me to another question, which may well interest
1his Lordship. Was there any manifestation of Holocaust
2denial on that day in Halle? Do you understand the
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To me? Excuse me.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it was to you.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. I understood.
7 MR IRVING: Or was it just --
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There was a rousing speech afterwards, of too much
9Dienel. That was very, very aggressive and I have to
10recall -- maybe you will see the typewritten version or
11you will see the video. It was very aggressive against
12foreigners, but Holocaust denial things I did not hear.
13 MR IRVING: Yes. This leads to another question. Were there
14any expressions of anti-Semitism during the functions or
15on the video tapes that you have seen of that particular
16function, not just xenophobia, not just "aus lande aus.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I got your point.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Explicit anti-Semitism? Are these useful questions, my
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Absolutely.
21 MR IRVING: Yes.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, they were concentrated on this hatred against
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you see any pictures in that film footage we saw of me
25with this gentleman, Thomas Dienel, together?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] On the stage.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Together?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You know he was around. We have to look on the video.
3You know on the stage there were Christian Worch and you
4and ----
5 Q. [Mr Irving] It was the back of a lorry, in fact.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Skinhead guys, so far as I know, of the region. Then you
7came before this both, you came and then you left. This
8is what I saw. You are right.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] In fact, have you read my diary and do you get the
10impression from my diary in doing so that I arrived,
11I spoke and I left immediately and headed back to West
12Germany within ten minutes?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think you would not make it in ten minutes to West
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I stayed around for ten minutes to make my speech
16and left immediately. Was that the impression you got?
17Or did you get the impression that I stayed there the
18whole day, applauding every speaker?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The diary shows no further inclination with the procedures
21 Q. [Mr Irving] The diary refers to my making a rabble rousing speech,
22does it not, which Mr Rampton read out this morning?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I recall, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen any references in my diary to my making a
25rabble rousing speech to my third daughter, Paloma, when
26she misbehaved one day and I made a rabble rousing ----
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You have to give me evidence.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That I think I would not pursue as a question
3because it will involve about ten minutes of explanation.
4 MR IRVING: Yes. I think I have established the main points.
5Just let me ask you once again. Do you specifically
6recall seeing any image of me on that film footage on the
7back of that truck next to or talking to Thomas Dienel?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not see it on the video, no.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] No. The Leuchter Congress, which is the film that was
10shown just before that, March 23rd 1991, his Lordship
11invited you not to translate what I said in my remarks,
12but would it be right to say that I just told the
13audience, "I have to tell you that I cannot tell you
14anything, the police have ruled that we cannot talk about
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is right.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Did I then continue to say that my topic was going to be a
18lecture on Winston Churchhill and the United States entry
19into World War II? Was that going to be the topic?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] It was not going to be Holocaust denial or it was not
22going to be an anti-Semitic talk, to your knowledge?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] The Munich lecture of April 1990, this was the Wahrheit
25Macht Frei lecture that we saw, the one that cost me so
26much, those few words, Wahrheit Macht Frei is "the truth
1shall set you free". Is that an appropriate translation
2of that?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think so.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that not in fact a quotation from the Bible, the
5scriptures, from John 8.32?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. I am not so Biblefest, as we say in
8 THE INTERPRETER: Not as well versed in the Bible.
9 MR IRVING: It had nothing to do with whatever private
10obsessions Mr Rampton may have with that phrase? It has
11nothing to do with anybody's -- in other words there are
12other possible explanations why that is a popular phrase
13in Germany?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The question of Richard Rampton was quite valid. It came
15into my mind in the subconscious.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] The resonance?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The resonance and the reference to the Nazi period,
18because of the aggressive outlet of the whole event in
19April 90 as set out by Mr Althans in saying, this is the
20end of the defence revisionists and now we have to think
22 THE INTERPRETER: We have to change our thinking.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And then, according to the sense, for a new political
24revolution or the like. I have to find the exact quote.
25So there is a surrounding atmosphere that can lead to
26these kinds of sensitivity that can allude to this Nazi
1period slogans.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Still dwelling on the Munich events, have you seen any
3reference in my diary to my criticising Althans for the
4appearance at that function?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: For what at the function?
6 MR IRVING: The appearance, the way it was staged, the staging
7of it.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I recall with respect to the 1st April '90
9Congress, you said two things, except the skinheads and
10the flags, or so in your diary.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. I did not like the skinheads and I did not like the
12flags and I told Althans that.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Can I add something?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, do. I was just looking up the diary
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Of course it is of interest to see you again meeting these
17skinheads in Halle and elsewhere.
18 MR IRVING: Confronting them, or having them imposed upon me?
19Would that be the right way to say it?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot say yes to that.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] It is not impossible, of course, that these skinheads have
22been bribed to come along and shout those slogans for the
23benefit of the newsreel cameras?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No way, because I looked very exactly to the surrounding
25conditions and I laid this out before the break, and
26I could extend it to hours, what this special meeting in
1early November '91 meant, especially for the two levels of
2the three I mentioned, that is the neo-Nazi reorganizing
3attempts and the reference and the organizational capacity
4they want to extend to the violent skinheads scenery in
5East Germany.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Of course, you agree that, if I had no connection with
7anybody at that Halle function, apart from the invitation
8from Mrs Worch to come and deliver a five-minute talk,
9then what the infrastructure may have been is not
10necessarily something that I will have heard about?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is a kind of denying, if I may say so. This whole
12circumstance, this political revisionist, the like,
13circumstances, you took side, you cooperated for a period
14of time with 26, you know, mentioning of the interaction
15between the Worches and so forth, the Ewald Althans
16interaction was even more intense, the Karl Philipp
17interaction. So, if I may draw the attention to the whole
18picture you will get if you see Mr Irving throughout these
19years interacting with these groups, and he again and
20again had to face this, and all the way long he reiterated
21his quest to speak before these audiences, and was there.
22So in that sense, I will draw a different picture than
23this is alluded in the question of Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] You talk about getting the global picture. Well, today
25and I suppose now tomorrow as well, we will be getting the
26global picture, which is everything I was doing at that
1time and not just these one or two episodes that have been
2selected. Do you agree with that?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not everything, oh no.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] There is a much wider picture.
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I just pinpoint these things that are of importance for
6the libel act, having extremist views, are you a dangerous
7Holocaust denier. You know, the Holocaust denier thing is
8somehow embedded in these political years, and that may
9cause a judgment to be dangerous, and this is up to of
10course the court and not to me. But there is something
11that conflates the two levels of activities -- conflate,
12coming together.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Converge?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Converge, excuse me.
15 MR IRVING: Yes. You have picked altogether on, I think we
16will find we end up with about half a dozen names that
17mean anything, because most of these people, you will
18probably agree, I have never met or heard of before. So,
19if we end up with half a dozen or a dozen names.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is too broad to be answerable.
21 MR IRVING: There is a question that actual follows. That was
22a comma there. The question now follows. Professor
23Funke, will you now please have a look at the little
24bundle of documents I gave you, so we can give it a kind
25of scale of proportion.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Is this the bundle J?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
2 MR IRVING: Yes, it is. Professor Funke, if you just look at
3pages 4, 5, 6 and 7, I do not want you to read them, just
4look at the numbers at the top of each of those pages.
5Will you agree with me that those are the title pages of
6five of my address lists on my computer, and that they
7show respectively totals of addresses of 571, 1169, 966,
82000, 158, 1662 records? All told about 6,500
9acquaintances that I have, just from these five address
10lists. You have picked on six or 12 or of that order of
11magnitude. I have contacts with all of these 6,500
12people. That is the global picture. You have picked on
13just these few. Would you agree that therefore possibly
14the poisonous extremism which you think you have found in
15David Irving is possibly diluted when it is dropped into
16the larger ocean of all these worldwide contacts, many of
17whom are left wing liberals, for example?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is not my duty to judge the 6,000 plus addresses and to
19look after them.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was my duty to refer to the cause of the libel act, and
22so far I have to reiterate that the bunch of people we
23discussed before the break are so decisive in making up a
24very violent movement, that of course there is a question
25how far, Mr Irving, if I may say so, you are interacted
26with them, or not. My judgment is that you were in the
1course of these years.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] In your opinion, yes. I will be looking at a lot of these
3names in detail as we go through your report but I am
4going to ask general questions now. You had complete
5access to all my private diaries, although I noticed in
6your report there is a reservation about whether it was
7complete access or not. You had complete access to all my
8telephone logs. Did you notice that in my private diaries
9at the beginning of every year there were pasted lists of
10people who received Christmas cards from me, or from whom
11I received Christmas cards, just as one thermometer, so to
12speak, of personal friendships? Did you notice these
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I saw some of them and, of course, I did not address it
15because it is not to the interests of the public court
16I let of course out all the very private things, and this
17is due to my personal understanding, and I think also to
18the rules of the court.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] But, Professor Funke, you would certainly have mentioned
20in your report if you had noticed that I had received
21regularly Christmas cards from the Worch family or from
22your Thomas Dienel, or any one of these other people, you
23would have mentioned it, would you not, or if I had sent
24them? It would have indicated a closer degree of intimacy
25than just being telephoned by these people?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This question presses me to go in further detail to what
1I realized with respect to both Worch, and again I have to
2restrict myself, but what I can say definitely and we can
3have further detailing of that, that there was a very,
4very intense relationship, cooperation, and what-have-you,
5between David Irving and Christian and Ursula Worch. This
6is for sure.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but we were on Christmas cards. You do
8not need to repeat what you have said already, if I may
9say so, Professor.
10 MR IRVING: The answer is no, I think, is it not?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer is that if you had
12discovered there were Christmas cards being exchanged with
13the Worchs regularly, you probably would have said so?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
15 MR IRVING: Another general question: in the exchanges that
16passed between myself and the Worchs, is there any element
17of Holocaust denial or anti-Semitism to your memory?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again?
19 Q. [Mr Irving] In the exchanges, the contacts, between myself and Worch,
20Mrs or Mr Worch, was there any element of Holocaust denial
21or any element of anti-Semitism?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean, the very fact that Mr & Mr Worch was a key
23organizer of this very Holocaust denier Congress in Munich
24is an indication that, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Mr Worch was an organizer of the Leuchter Congress, in
26your opinion?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, of the first Congress in 21st April '90.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] On what?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He was there and he was there again.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] On what evidence do you base that statement?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If I may add, he was there again in late March, as you
6could see just a minute ago.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] You say he was there, but how many people do you estimate
8were there Lowenbraukeller in Munich on 21st April 1990,
92,000 people?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. It was said that there were 800 or so.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] So being there is not enough. What evidence do you base
12your statement that Worch was an organizer of that
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Because he prepared it together with others. He was ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving] What evidence?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He was responsible for the so-called security thing.
17I said deliberately that this picture, we are both of
18these various persons stood together, that is Althans, on
19the one hand -- he was, of course, the more important --
20and Christian Worch, on the other hand, showed something
21about the degree in which they were interacting by
22preparation and enacting the Congress.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] So your statement is based purely on that visual image we
24have of Althans standing next to ----
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, also the references in what you got, I think, of the
26whole, of the whole letters from you to them and back and
1so forth.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not want to hold you up, but if you can find evidence
3that Worch was involved in the organization of the
4Lowenbraukeller meeting, then perhaps you can present it
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, is the Lowenbraukeller meeting ----
7 MR IRVING: April 21 1990, my Lord. That was the second video
8that was shown to us today. (To the witness): You
9estimate there were 800 people in the audience?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot say. I was not there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] And all people that were drawn to our attention, the
12person you identified as Michael Kuhnen craning his neck,
13the one without glasses, and Otto Ernst Remer and Manfried
14Reuder, these are the names of people you picked out, they
15were all sitting halfway down the audience, were they, or
16in the middle of the audience?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] They were not wearing nameplates or anything? They had no
19name tags on, did they?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I saw, no.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] These may seem silly questions to you, but I have to ask
22them for obvious reasons. It was the same on the first
23video that was shown at Hagenau. You identified there
24Mr Faurisson, Mr Zundel and Mr Worch and somebody you said
25seemed to be Staglich?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] And do you agree that I was not visible on any of those
2shots in which those people were visible. Therefore,
3there is no indication that I was in the room at the time
4that they were there or when mr Zundel was making his
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not by this video.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Not on this video?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I cannot see because you spoke at the given time and
9the video is not the last proof if you are at this given
10moment you were in the room, and there is no way to
11identify it 100 per cent.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I beg your pardon for interrupting. Are we
13on the April 1990?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, he went back to Hagenau.
15 MR IRVING: This is Hagenau, the first video, my Lord,
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] The people pointed out to us were Mr Faurisson, Mr Zundel,
19Mr Worch and somebody who "seems to be Staglich". Those
20are the only comments I have to make on the videos which
21were, as I understand it, only introduced or accepted for
22identification, rogues gallery purposes, on this
23occasion. Unless your Lordship has any questions to ask?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do one, yes, is Worch's first name is
26 MR IRVING: "Christian=".
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There are two Worchs.
2 MR IRVING: And his wife is Ursula.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who is Uschi?
4 MR IRVING: His wife, Ursula.
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is a shortening or a kind of nickname of Ursula.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am not sure whether you are
7putting this, are you suggesting you were not there for
8the whole of the Halle meeting?
9 MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord. I am suggesting that I arrived two
10or three minutes before it all began. I got on the back
11of truck, made my 10 minute brief statement to the young
12Germans, got back in my car and got out of it as fast as I
13could being thoroughly aggravated by the whole episode.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Can I say something to that?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, please.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You said two or three minutes before you staged your
18 MR IRVING: A few minutes before, two or three minutes.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to pinpoint to the fact that it is shown in the
20whole scope of the video, of one of the videos I saw --
21I saw several versions -- that you already met, that
22Mr Irving already met, let us say, half an hour or more
23before a lot of these people who are organizing or with
24organizing who are the main participants of this
25demonstration in the hotel hall where Uschi or Ursula
26Worch and David Irving arrived.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, are we talking about Hagenau or Halle?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So the whole event has to be taken into account and not
3only the five or 10 minutes speech during the
4demonstration. It has also to be taken into consideration
5the surrounding minutes before Mr Irving spoke.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Are you talking about Halle now?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I thought so.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me. 9th November '91.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I am bound to say, I do not know whether you looked at the
11diary entry, did you?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Because that appears to show Mr Irving arriving at 2 p.m.
14and leaving at 5 p.m.?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
16 MR IRVING: 2.00 and 5.00, yes?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not 10 minutes.
18 MR IRVING: Let me put this question.
19 MR RAMPTON: Three hours.
20 MR IRVING: Well, I was talking actually about the meeting
21place which is a different part of the town. Perhaps I
22can be more specific by cross-examination. The hotel that
23you referred to where these meetings apparently took
24place, was that one or two miles away from where the truck
25was parked, if I can put it like that, where the speech
26was made?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That can be. I am not informed about the site. It is
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, that I think explains that, my Lord, that I arrived
4at the hotel. I remember meeting Martin Bell there and
5people like that, and I then went over shortly before the
6speech, made the speech and then got out of it.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not want to get bogged down on one diary
8entry, but that is not, perhaps, the way it reads to me.
9It says: "Arrived at 2 p.m. I spoke first".
10 MR IRVING: Yes, as is visible.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: "10 or 15 minutes". That takes you to 2.20,
122.15, 2.20, and you left at 5 p.m.
13 MR IRVING: My Lord, what I said is not incompatible with the
14diary entry, but probably cross-examination by Mr Rampton
15is a proper place to bring that out ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That may be right actually.
17 MR IRVING: --- if I can be so bold as to say that.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Anyway, you press on.
19 MR IRVING: But I have an answer for everything, if I can say
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I would not put it quite that way.
22 MR IRVING (To the witness) : I am now going to deal with some
23of the names that you mentioned, and I am now taking them
24out of sequence out of your report purely because you
25brought these names to the front in the
26examination-in-chief this morning. You say that I had a
1very close relationship with Ewald Althans?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] This is correct, is it not, you said that?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] And it is also ----
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] At a given time.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] --- not something that will be denied, but I want to ask
8you a few questions about Ewald Althans. To your
9knowledge, when did I first get to know him?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving] In what year?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, may I interrupt again because you
14said something this morning which slightly worried me
15which was that you were not allowed to ask leading
16questions. That is true in strict theory, but in practice
17you can ask leading questions when you are
19 MR IRVING: In cross-examination I can, my Lord, yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But you did realize that? You said something
21this morning which made me think you did not realize.
22 MR IRVING: But the situation this morning was not exactly
23cross-examination; it was more interrupting Mr Rampton.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, no, you said it in the course of
25cross-examination. I mean, for example, with Althans, it
26will save time if you say you did not meet him until such
1and such a date, just say.
2 MR IRVING: Thank you very much, my Lord, yes
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Do you accept that I did not meet him until
4whenever it was?"
5 MR IRVING (To the witness) : In that case, Professor Funke, you
6accept that I first may have met Mr Althans in Canada in
7March 1989?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] It is possible that this is the Ewald that I met,
10according to my diary, is that right?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] But that I first really got to know him in October 1989?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is very probably.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] From your knowledge ----
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Very likely.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] From your knowledge of Ewald Althans and his rise and
17fall, was he a very bright student, a very bright person?
18Was he very gifted and intelligent in many ways?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot say this. I do not know.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But you said something in the diaries to the account of
22very energetic, and so in any case, whatever the personal
23judgment may be, you co-operated with him.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, let us see who the person was that I co-operated
25with and what he became, shall we? Am I right in saying
26that he spent six months or a year of his life in Israel
1for an operation called Operation Atonement, Aktion
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] You do not know that?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No. I did not -- I have to say I read it if it is stated
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you surprised to hear that?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is totally new for me.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] What kind of young man would go to Israel voluntarily on a
10atonement mission for six months or a year of his life
11aged about 20, as he then was, and seek to make amends for
12what the Nazi had done? Would that be inclined to impress
13you, that kind of young man?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Again I am surprised.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] I am asking not about Mr Althans now, but about any young
16man ----
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] --- if he did that. It would tell you something about
19what kind of character he was?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, definitely. I think so.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] But you accept that people can later on go off the rails,
22they can be led astray, they fall into bad company.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This can happen.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Later on, of course, he did fall into bad company,
25did he not? He made a lot of neo-Nazi acquaintances and
26he undoubtedly turned into a right-wing extremist for a
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] At least he turned to a right-wing extremist and, as you
3say, neo-Nazi.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Now, when he was finally put on trial in Berlin for
5having taken part in a film, he was sentenced to three and
6a half years in jail, is that right?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] At least to a big amount and I cannot recall how many
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Do you remember what one element of his defence at
10that trial was which rather surprised the press?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was, as far as I recall, but correct me or others may
12correct me, that he may took side of the State Secret
13authorities of the verwaschungsschultz.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Did he not claim credibly to have been in the pay of the
15German Security Services for a substantial part of the
16latter part of his political career, that he had been
17acting as an agent for them?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I am not very familiar with it, so it would be better
19I have evidence because it is very debated, and I really
20did not get it through what really was at stake and what
21the real, you know, state of affairs in this period, let
22us say, '93, '94 was, so...
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Let me take it in stages then.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to react on your question very vague.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Let me take it in stages then. You did hear the newspaper
26reports that Althans had made this very surprising claim?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I saw it, yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you any indication or can you remember how long he
3was taking money from the Security Services?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] He offered to supply ----
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I even do not know if this is the case.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Would he be likely to have made a claim in a court
8in Berlin that could easily have been refuted by the
9Public Prosecutor if it was untrue?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was very debated so I cannot comment on that without
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. So, in other words, he is a very mysterious
13character, Mr Althans, towards the end of his political
15 MR RAMPTON: I think it would be important to have a date for
16this particular event because if it occurs after the end
17or near the end of Mr Irving's association with him, with
18Althans, then it, of course, is of no relevance
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The trial was in '94, I think.
21 MR RAMPTON: Yes, precisely. Unless Mr Irving knew at the time
22when he was in close association with Ewald Althans that
23he was, in effect, a government spy, it is of no relevance
25 MR IRVING: Then let me put this question to the witness.
26Dr Funke, have you seen correspondence between myself and
1Dr Fry in which Dr Fry warned me that Althans was a very
2suspect character?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I read this.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: When is that? I mean, I am not quite sure
5where it is taking us.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is in the early time when David Irving and Ewald
7Althans did this very intense cooperation.
8 MR IRVING: In other words, it was at the material times to
9which Mr Rampton is referring I did receive already an
10advanced warning that there was something fishy about
11Mr Althans?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But may I add something to that?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
14 MR IRVING: Of course.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You know, it has to be taken into account that the DVU was
16a Congress organization on the right extremist ----
17 THE INTERPRETER: A competitor?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] A competitor on the right, right-wing extremist side. So
19they feared, so far I recall the diaries and the letters
20and so forth, that the action Althans is proposing to
21David Irving may hurt his reputation as accepted in this
22right-wing extremist circles around the DVU as accepted
23speaker, because Althans was more far right, as I said, as
24a neo-Nazi, and may endanger this special, you know,
25interaction between the right-wing extremists around the
26DVU, on the one hand, and David Irving on the other
2 So there are several causes that this warning
3came, and it did not allude to the fact that he may be a
4member of the Secret Service. If I am allowed to, I would
5then question also why David Irving took sides with this,
6you know, dangerous, or whatever, mysterious character at
7that time for that period of time, but this is a question
8that may be valued by others.
9 MR IRVING: Certainly it is a question for Mr Rampton to
10consider when his turn comes along, but the fact remains
11that if Mr Althans was working for the German Government
12security agencies, it is possible that he had been given
13the task of framing me, is it not -- if you can understand
14that question?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Can you translate it?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid I do not.
17 MR IRVING: I beg your pardon?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid I do not. Of entrapping you?
19 MR IRVING: [German]. Entrapping, yes.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot answer that. I cannot answer that.
21 MR IRVING: Are you an expert on the verwaschungsschultz, on
22the German security agencies?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I know it a bit, but I am not an expert on that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with any other instances where they had
25used these kinds of methods?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, thank you. You made reference to the
2Wehrsportgruppe, the military exercise units, and
3Mr Rampton rightly asked you, rather like the Americans
4who go running around pooping off guns at each other in
5World War II uniforms, there is that kind of comparison,
6is there not? The same kind of thing happens in the
7United States?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I am shy to compare these different, you know, political
9cultures, but there are some to a limit some comparable
10things there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] There is no suggestion, is there, that I have any
12connection with one particular group, the Hoffmann group,
13which you mention in your report?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I did not mention it in relation to David Irving.
15I did mention it in relation to, and this was an
16interesting, you know, action, with respect to the DVU and
17its leader, Gerhard Frey, who so eagerly tried to be legal
18and said in the letters to David Irving again and again:
19 "Don't mention Jews, don't mention Hitler, just because
20to be not illegalized as an extremist party". So it was
21 -- I wondered very much that this could happen in the
22late '70s with Gerhard Frey ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving] But there was no reason why ----
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- and Hoffmann.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] --- you are not implying that I had any connection with
26that group?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no, not at all. It shows, you know, the extent in
2which right-wing extremism, although legal, tried to
3extend their behaviour.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Now you say that in March 1991 it was planned to invite me
5to Wansiedel?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] To speak on Rudolf Hess. Are you familiar with the fact
8that I am an expert on Rudolf Hess and that I have
9published a book on Rudolf Hess?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I know that you published a book on Rudolf Hess.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. So would I be a natural speaker to invite to a
12function like that?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to put it differently to answer it correctly
14according to my knowledge, and to my judgments, of course,
15that goes with it, the invitation to speak there was
16multifaceted. It was also how you present Rudolf Hess to
17a given audience, so they knew whom they want to invite
18and have there speaking, and the letters back and forth
19are very interesting in that respect. As I mentioned
20earlier, you did not answer positively because of the
21appearance of ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, this is the next question.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask the questions in sequence, please? The book
25that I wrote about Rudolf Hess would have told them what
26they needed to know, would it not, what my attitude on
1that man was?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say again?
3 Q. [Mr Irving] The book that I wrote about Rudolf Hess would have told
4them what my attitude on that man was?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Was that attitude reprehensible, in your view?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I say, I just say that in combination of the book and how
8you present the Rudolf Hess case in your speeches in
9Germany makes it valid for these neo-Nazis to invite you.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there any difference between the hypotheses that I set
11in my book on Rudolf Hess and the content of my speeches
12on Rudolf Hess which have been printed several times?
13There is no distinction?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Again I would pinpoint to the context, the political
16 Q. [Mr Irving] You accept that the book on Rudolf Hess was published by
17Macmillan & Company in this country which is one of our
18most prestigious companies?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I know.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] And that they would be unlikely to publish a neo-Nazi or
21Holocaust denial book or an anti-Semitic book on Rudolf
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not say that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] The reason that -- we now come to the point you are about
25to make -- I finally rejected the invitation to spoke at
26Wansiedel, do you know what that reason was?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I got a clue by the diaries and the letters
2between Worch and you and others.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Tell the court what the reason was, so far as you know?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You did not want to be on a demonstration or an event
5where also Michael Kuhnen would be there.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, I refused to be in the same place as Michael Kuhnen.
7Does that tell you anything about my contact, to use that
8word, with Mr Michael Kuhnen?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not say that you cooperated with Michael Kuhnen, but
10with the main successors and cooperators of Michael
11Kuhnen. So with the person you did not do a lot so far as
12the data are there.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I just ask you to look quickly at the little bundle of
14documents? It should be page 9 or page 8. It is a letter
15from me to the Der Spiegel?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, it is 8.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 8 or 9, is it?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is 8.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this a letter in which in the second paragraph I am
20telling Der Spiegel and their readers: "It is not
21accurate to say that in August I will speak at a function
22of Mr Kuhnen in Wansiedel in connection with a memorial
23function for Rudolf Hess"?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, as you said before.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Then when Der Spiegel refused to publish the letter,
26because they had said exactly the opposite, that on
1February 17th 1991, if you will turn to the next page,
2please, I then wrote to my lawyer -- I am sorry, this is
3not the right letter at all. Do we have the right letter?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe it is my report.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, it is. I am sorry. It is page 30. Page 30 of that
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What bundle? Your bundle, yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] It is either page 29 or page 39, probably page 30. It is
9headed "Discovery 12.8.9"?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 29 is a sheet of paper with nothing.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] It should be headed "Discovery 12.8.9"?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe it is before, I do not know. No, it is blank.
13Maybe I get yours for a minute. Thank you.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Am I asking my Munich lawyer from Sprade, who is a
15reputable firm of lawyers, to take action to force
16Der Spiegel to publish this dissociation of any contact
17between myself and Mr Kuhnen?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to read it. May I read the passage that is of
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Quotation -- no, Kuhnen had been identified in the
22previous paragraph as follows. Then quotation: "Also",
23that refers Der Spiegel, quotation, "Also, neo-Nazis like
24the self-proclaimed Fuhrer of the West German Brown
25movement, Michael Kuhnen, 34, intend to use Irving
26increasingly as a figure head. They plan=", quotation,
1'close collaboration'" quotation end, then quotation
2 "with respectable person like this", quotation end,
3 "Kuhnen hopes we will also reach circles that otherwise
4give us a wide berth".
5 MR IRVING: Yes. Let me ask you a question on that now.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So it is right again that you did not take sides with
7Kuhnen himself, but you took sides with the Kuhnen
9 Q. [Mr Irving] In fact, I made it quite plain to Der Spiegel that I have
10not the slightest intention of allowing them to use me.
11Is that right?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You were very clear on that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] And can you suggest any reason why a magazine like Der
14Spiegel would print the opposite story? Would there be an
15intention to defame me?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is neither here nor there and anyway, he
17cannot possibly say.
18 MR IRVING: While you have the bundle in front of you, can
19I ask you to look at page 28?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is blank. There is nothing there.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 27?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, there is something.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Discovery 10.96?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there a letter translated from one of Germany's leading
26publishing houses, Robot Publishing House, to myself dated
1July 2nd 1985?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is right.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] It is a letter from somebody called Dr Michael Naumand.
4Does that name mean anything to you?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] What is Dr Michael Naumand now, please?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Minister of Culture.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] At that time he was the Chief Editor of Robot Publishing
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Here he is writing a letter, "Dear Mr Irving, Mr Hochhut
12has drawn my attention=" -- who is Rolf Hochhut, do you
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is a playwriter in Germany, for example, on Pious
1512th's relation to the Nazi period.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Is he a left wing liberal?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am not quite sure what this goes
18to but Mr Naumand is expressing an interest in your
19forthcoming biography of Winston Churchill. Where do we
20go from there, as it were, especially with this witness?
21 MR IRVING: It is very difficult to do this with any other
22witness, my Lord.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have done it with me. For what it is
24worth, I have got the point. I think you have better
25weapons in your armoury on this point.
26 MR IRVING: I am being accused of having the whole rogues
1gallery, to use Mr Rampton's phrase, of sleezy right-wing
2extremist friends and in fact I have a"du" friendship with
3Rolf Hochhut, who is one of Germany's leading left wing
4liberal playwright since February 1965. This was the
5point I hoped to bring out, I had hoped, in about ten
6seconds of cross-examination.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right. Ask the question.
8 MR IRVING: Well, do you know who Rolf Hochhut is? Is he a
9left wing liberal German playwright?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is a play writer, who attacked in his plays very harsh
11the silence of Pope Pious the 12th on the issue of the
12Holocaust during the Nazi period.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] So he is the opposite of a Holocaust denier, then?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I would say so, and he is a belover --
15 THE INTERPRETER: An admirer.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] An admirer of Hans Junge, who is on the right, so I cannot
17say if he is a left liberal or right. He is a playwright.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. He is a playwright.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] A famous playwright.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen about 5,000 items of correspondence between
21me and Mr Hochhut in the discovery?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not see 5,000 or whatever, but I saw in the diary
23that you met him in a very friendly manner.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, thank you very much. You mentioned that Mr Staglich,
25the late Mr Staglich, was a former judge. Did he retire?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh this case, I am not very ----
1 Q. [Mr Irving] You do not know the answer to that?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I am not very informed about that whole biography of
3Mr Staglich.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] You do not know if he retired?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There were quarrels because of his denialist or so books
6and, if I get a minute, I can answer a bit better than
7just now.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If Mr Irving puts to you that he lost his
9job, is that right, because of his right-wing views?
10 MR IRVING: That he was dismissed from his position for
11his views on German history.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is my recollection, but I was not sure, so I am
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Does this often happen in German? Are judges frequently
15relieved of their position by the Ministry of Justice for
16having incorrect----
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is seldom. It is related to this, especially -- for
18example, to other things also -- to the Holocaust denier
19things because of the state of laws in Germany.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you know how difficult it is to remove an English judge
21from their position?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we are straying a bit. That was not
23said defensively or anything like that! But let us move
24on. We are slowing down.
25 MR IRVING: The point is I was about to come on to Gunter
26Deckert. Did the same thing happen in the case of Gunter
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] You mentioned the case of Gunter Deckert, who is
4admittedly a friend of mine. He has been in prison now
5for seven years. What happened originally? Was he
6acquitted by two judges?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There was back and forth decision processes in Manheim and
8on higher levels of various courts, because of this
9denialist thing, and this leads to the whole issue how the
10German, after 45 for public, deals with this kind of
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Incitement to hatred?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And hatred and insult.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Defaming the memory of the dead?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Insult of dead people, defamation, right. Thank you.
16This is a very decisive, very important thing in the whole
17debate between the judicial system and political and
18law-making processes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] All rather unpleasant. Can you confirm that the two
20judges in the Court of Appeal said unanimously that they
21found that Gunter Deckert was an outstanding teacher and a
22patriot who had done what he considered to be best for his
23country and they acquitted him on that ground?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to see the events. I do not know.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you know what happened thereupon to those two judges,
26Judge Ortlett and another?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Give me the evidence, to be sure.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Did it not make great headlines in Germany about three or
3four years ago when the two judges were dismissed and sent
4to early retirement for having come up with the wrong
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I recall, yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] This was a decision of the Ministry of Justice in Germany
8for the judges that come up with an undesirable verdict?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Give me the evidence. Then I can look. But now you are
10not interested in the overall picture.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] I am interested in whether Gunter Deckert is somebody of
12with whose friendship one can be comfortable, namely
13somebody who has been acquitted by two judges before they
14themselves are penalised, or whether in fact he is the
15kind of neo-Nazi extremist that is of interest in this
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the point that the Professor has made
18is that he was leader of the NPD from 1991 to 1995.
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, we will come on to the character of the
20NPD in the course of the more regular cross-examination on
21the basis of his report, but I was looking at the person
22of Dr Gunter Deckert himself, which was touched upon in
23the little preview given by Mr Rampton this morning.
24Mr Rampton took you briefly through the matter of whether
25the Jews had themselves to blame. I do not want to dwell
26on that in great detail because it is not a part of your
1expert report, but in fact it is a matter which has caused
2I think, inflamed passions here in the courtroom. I was
3going to ask you if, in your answers, you would agree
4there is a difference between something being explicable
5and something being excusable? If I can put it in a
6totally non-Jewish context, I can say that what happened
7to Dresden was explicable, but not excusable?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I understand the differentiation you are opting to do with
9these two words.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. You understand there is a difference? Can you say
11that perhaps what happened to the Jews in the Baltic
12states was explicable but of course not in the least bit
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think this is done in the court procedures with various
15historians, and I am not an expert on that. With respect
16to the prejudices against Jews, I have to say that, if the
17dimension of explicability and excusability comes
18together, are linked, then we get a problem. I would say
19that some of the statements you made, for example, and are
20made, generally spoken, of those who are against Jewry,
21who are anti-Semites, exactly make this problem, that
22these persons say, OK, they are the disliked, it is caused
23by them, so they have a kind of partial or full guilt of
24what happened with them, and this is at the core of a
25very, very intense anti-Semitism, at the time in the 30s,
26and again in the 90s, throughout to this century.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] You have read all my diaries, have you not?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not all. No, not possible.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] They have been made available to you. Have you found any
4examples of anti-Semitism in my diaries that you can
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not in the diaries, so far as I recall. Maybe there are
7some exceptions, but it is not dominant.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] By anti-Semitism, of course, we are not referring just to
9somebody saying a critical remark about a Jew in
10particular, or about a particular group, we are talking
11about a visceral unreasoning blind hatred?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right, and I was here in the courtroom when Richard
13Rampton asked you about a bundle of quotations of speeches
14and statements and interviews that you gave. My personal
15judgment was he quoted racist and anti-Semitic statements,
16a lot of them, so I was really shocked at that minute in
17the courtroom.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] We are all shocked. I was shocked too but of course, when
19you put things in these contexts sometimes, the shock
20factor diminishes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Can I add ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am not going to stop you --
23forgive me, Professor.
24 MR IRVING: I have his report now open, my Lord.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It just seems to me that, in a way, I know
26what the Defendants rely on and it is for me to make up my
1mind whether the charge of anti-Semitism ----
2 MR IRVING: As soon as the witness used the words "in his
3judgment" I could hear bristling coming from the bench.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Anyway, you have said you are going to
5his report, and I think that is a good thing.
6 MR IRVING: I want to ask you a few general questions first.
7The first question is that it is quite obvious from your
8expert report, Professor Funke, that you do not like
9right-wingers, do you?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I am asked to define right-wing extremism, and to do
11research how far you are connected with them, or said
12extremist views. That was my duty.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, I think it is a fair question,
14though. He is asking you really your own personal
15opinion. I think that is legitimate.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK, but I have to separate it with respect to the report.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Of course, but I think he is entitled to ask the question
18even so.
19 MR IRVING: I can say straightaway that I do not think he is
20biased, my Lord. There is certainly no bias here that
21I would detect.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then you are not entitled to ask the
23question. The only relevance to the question was to
24suggest that he is biased. If you are not suggesting
25that, then you do not need to ask the question. I think
26that must be right. Tell me if I am wrong.
1 MR IRVING: How far right of centre does this dislike start?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again?
3 Q. [Mr Irving] How far right of centre line would this dislike of the
4right-wingers start? It would have to be very extreme
5right-wing before Professor Funke starts disliking him, or
6Mrs Thatcherish, or Helmut Kohlish?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The problem is the same your Lordship raised, so I am a
8bit in a problem.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I try and clarify it because maybe I have
10not understood Mr Irving correctly. Professor Funke's
11personal political position seems to me to be relevant if
12and only if you are making the suggestion that he has been
13influenced in his report by his own political leanings.
14 MR IRVING: If I can put ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are suggesting that, then I understand
16the line of questions. If you are not ----
17 MR IRVING: I am. Would I be right, Professor, in suggesting
18that your report can be summarized under the title of a
19hostile view of the right-wing as viewed from the far
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I cannot agree. What I did, if I may answer in two or
22three sentences, is to refer to the state of research, and
23to the state of social sciences and to the definitions of
24the offices for the protection of the constitution, where
25right-wing extremism is defined. You could read it and it
26was a kind of sober account, to my judgment. Then
1I looked through these various developments and political
2organizations through the course of the Federal Republic
3from 45 onwards to the early '90s, and especially for that
4period that is of interest for the court.
5 So this is the layer and the criteria of this
6definition I set out in the first pages. It is related to
7how far these right-wing extremists attacking the core of
8the institutions of the liberal democracy of the 45 period
9of Federal Republic, how far they are striving, acting,
10going for authoritarian state, how far this is linked with
11anti-Semitism, is this linked with foreign hatred, and
12within the right-wing extremism how far it is clear cut
13for the re-establishment, or the establishment, to put it
14differently, of a pure Aryan race based state. So a
15Fuhrerstadt and so forth. These are the definitions that
16are laid out in the social sciences, and you may say these
17social sciences I quote are hostile to whatever.
18 MR IRVING: Yes. That takes me to my next question which is,
19if I have understood your report correctly, your major
20basis for your statements, apart from my own discovery,
21are either the reports of the office for the protection of
22the constitution, which you describe as the OPC, or the
23consensus of opinion of social scientists, if I put it
24like that. You refer to the opinions of the social
25sciences. So we are up against now the consensus problem,
26that is all you social scientists who are saying
1right-wing extremism is that, plus the opinion of the
2government security agency, and you rely on that
3definition, do you, of right-wing extremism?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I put it my way.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Those are the two sources?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is a kind of distorting of my presentation of the first
720 pages.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] I am going to be asking you in a minute to look at the
9offices of the protection of the constitution, and what
10kind of body it is, but I want to take you through one or
11two other matters first. First of all, a simple question
12that I have asked all the other witnesses. Are you under
13any kind of contract to Yad Vashem? Do you owe them any
14kind of money? Do you have any kind of outstanding
15obligations to them at all?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To Yad Vashem?
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I would like, but I have not.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] On page 6 of your report -- we are actually digging into
20it now -- first line, Hajo Funke (that is you) has written
21a book or an article called "The Republicans" in a book
22called "The Brown Danger". That is a reference to the
23Nazis, is it not?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You can say so, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Does not the title "The Brown Danger" imply that it is a
26kind of a left wing book, a left wing look at things?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, Mr Irving, let us press on. I do not
2think that is an appropriate question.
3 MR IRVING: You have also written an article on Martin Walser
4and Ignatz Bubis in the General Jewish Weekly, the
5Allgemeine Judische Wochenzeitung?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] What was the problem about Martin Walser and Ignatz Bubis,
8if you can summarize it in three lines? Martin Walser is
9a German novelist, a very famous novelist, is he?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Did he find fault with something about Ignatz Bubis?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe, if it is of value for ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it really is helpful, no.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Not helpful? Right.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a question of priorities really, is it
16not? I think you have to tackle the ----
17 MR IRVING: The people, yes. If you look now at the second
18paragraph from the bottom which you have numbered 14, we
19have something here about Ewald Althans.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] You say that a man called Althans sells and distributes
22books, videos and cassettes of mine. Now, as of today,
231,430 shops deal directly with me, selling my books,
24videos and cassettes, and large numbers of major
25distribution companies do, too. So do you rely very
26heavily on the fact that this man Althans sold books of
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is in the context of your interaction with Ewald
3Althans. It is not only this kind of selling.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] You do not attach much importance that he was a book
5seller. In paragraph 15, the next paragraph, you refer to
6the fact that I have been deported from Austria, and you
7make something of that. I do not blame you. That was
8June 26th 1984, was it not?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, so far as I recall.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] That I was complemented out of the country, as they say.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. You were then in November '89 and you had to leave.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we remain with the 1984 one?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you tell the court what was the role of the Austrian
15Minister of the Interior, Karl Blecher, in that? Did he
16do that personally?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know exactly. I read it, but it did not go into
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you know the role of the Austrian documentation archive
20of the Wiedestant in securing my deportation, of the
21resistance archive?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I know the archive, but I do not know the role.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you characterize this Austrian resistance archive,
24what its politics are? Has it got strong communist
25leanings? Is it known as a communist body?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask you to look at the first item in the bundle of
2documents I gave you? It is a letter from me to The Times
3dated July 11th 1986.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Page 1.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Am I complaining to The Times that, having reported my
6deportation from Austria, they have not reported with one
7line the fact that the deportation has been ruled illegal
8and the Minister has been ordered to pay compensation?
9You will see on the following page The Times item that
10reports this little victory.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems so.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] The final paragraph of page 3, The Times item, says: "The
13spokesman for the Ministry of Justice said Mr Irving will
14be bringing a case for wrongful arrest against the
15officials involved later this year". So it is not just as
16cut and dried as you said, is it, deported from Austria?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Just it occurred and so I refer to it.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] It occurred and you refer to it. But you then say in the
19two lines from the bottom that he is banned from entering
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, can I interrupt you again? Do
22forgive me for doing so. I am not remotely ----
23 MR IRVING: Interested.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Impressed" is the word I was going to use,
25or will be influenced by the fact that you have been
26banned and deported from these various countries. It
1seems to me I have to make up my own mind.
2 MR IRVING: It very marginally goes to the accuracy of this
4 MR RAMPTON: No. Anyway, Mr Irving was reading from the
5pleadings and not from Professor Funke's report. I make
6no capital out of the fact that he is banned. Your
7Lordship is obliged as a matter of comity not to comment
8on the deportations, but I much prefer that we make up our
9own minds, or your Lordship makes up your own mind, in
10this court whether Mr Irving deserved to be banned, which
11is quite a separate question.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is entirely the way I intend to approach
13it. I can see you resent it, but I think you can forget
14about it, or forget about them, the deportations, for the
15purposes of this case.
16 MR IRVING: I will say in one line what I would have said about
17Australia and Canada, my Lord. Banned from Australia is
18because the labour Prime Minister said I was a bad
19character. They changed the immigration law to make it
20possible. Banned from Canada was because of a technical
21infringement of the Immigration Act. It was nothing to do
22with the Holocaust denial views. That was what I had
23hoped to elicits in this particular piece of
25 In paragraph 1.3.2, on page 9, five lines from
26the bottom, you suggest that my diaries have been
1sanitized for other readers. This is quite a serious
2suggestion to make in view of the fact that the diaries
3are before the court. What justification do you have for
4the allegation that I sanitized the diaries, 20 million
5words of them, before making them available to the court?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Of course, this is a judgment, or a value statement, an
7assessment. There are important phases I did not see,
8I mean periods of time I did not see. Maybe you did not
9put something in your diary, and of course, and this is
10the main point, the things we figured out by other sources
11with respect to the letter and to the events are not
12stated there as intense as private things that I am not
13interested in. So I had to read and make up my own mind
14by other sources. So in that sense it gives not a full
15picture of your interaction so far as they are important
16for the case that is at stake in the court.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I see whether there is a misunderstanding
18because there may be. Are you, by the use of the
19word "sanitized", suggesting that Mr Irving has
20manipulated or redacted, and I am not sure what the
21redacted is, the diaries? "Redact" is a very curious
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I would say of course all diaries are redacted in the mind
24of the people and, with respect to what is at stake here,
25they are of course, I would say, redacted. Look at the
26Halle event, so you see a full scale different picture.
1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I follow that. What I am trying to get at, and I cannot
2quite think of the right term, is are you suggesting that
3Mr Irving has deliberately altered the diaries after the
4event in order to present a different picture from what
5would originally have been given?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not say this.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that perhaps was a misunderstanding.
8 MR IRVING: I could not let that pass, my Lord. I had to draw
9attention to it, and also the following phrase that I have
10to draw attention to is four lines from the bottom: "As
11will be set out below important passages in Irving's
12diaries have not been released to the defence". What
13basis do you have for making that allegation that implies
14that I have withheld documents on discovery?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It implies that you did your diary, and all of a sudden
16interrupted your diary. Because of this assumption, there
17are left out very interesting phases in the course of your
18activities in Germany and Austria. In Germany.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] You do accept that the way either you have expressed
20yourself or the way it has been translated into English,
21it gives the impression that I have had these pages of
22diaries and that I have taken them out of the file.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot say this.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] I have said I am not going to give them to the defence
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I cannot say this. I cannot say that you did
1something deliberately against ----
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Because that would actually be a contempt of court and, if
3I was to do that, I would be culpable.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not suggested.
5 MR IRVING: Not suggested. On the following page, two lines
6down, you make the same suspicion that I have not
7disclosed crucial speeches. Are you just saying again
8that I did not transcribe them, or that I did transcribe
9them, or I did have tapes and did not make them available
10to the lawyers? It is the same question.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Again, it is not a deliberate assumption, assumption of
12deliberativeness, that it was done deliberately. I cannot
13say this because I have no proof of it, so I will not.
14But, of course, there are crucial speeches not there. One
15of them we will get in the next hour or so.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, because, of course, if I had edited the diaries or
17the speeches, then I would have taken out the little
18racist ditty that Mr Rampton thinks I should be horse
19whipped for.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not suggested you have doctored them.
21 MR IRVING: You refer in paragraph 1.3.3, which is page 10, and
22I think this is a useful place to take it on, to the
23German Office for the Protection of the Constitution,
24which has been busy monitoring extremist organizations, as
25you describe. Now, can you explain to the court what the
26structure of the OPC is? There is an overall Federal
1body, is there not?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] And each of provinces has its own provincial OPC. Is it a
4political body?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it is a state institution on the Federal level and on
6the provincial or state level the like. They have their
7duty, according to the constitutional law and to various
8laws that were given by the parliament, to observe
9extremism of my kind, to monitor, and this is the main
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but it is a body that in each case, both at Federal
12level and at provincial level, is subordinated to the
13Minister of the Interior, who is a political animal, is he
14not? He has the say?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to reiterate what I said. It is not a political
16body. They have to stick to the rules. I do not know, it
17goes with the idea, and to a degree realized idea,
18that state officials stick to the rules, stick to the
19laws, and are not politicisable.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am wondering whether this is not
21in a way a bit similar to courts in foreign countries
22making decisions that you be deported and banned and so
23on. I do not think I am really very concerned, am I, with
24the views or activities of the OPC?
25 MR IRVING: You are, my Lord, if I may respectfully say so,
26because much of his report depends on the reports provided
1by the OPCs. He quotes them extensively as though they
2are the word of God. If I can establish to the court's
3satisfaction that the OPCs are political animals created,
4run and generated as propaganda instruments by the
5government agencies and the government ministers
6concerned, which is why they never criticise the activity
7of the established parties, even when they are
8unconstitutional, and demonstrably so, then this would
9devalue whatever these people have to say about
10unfortunate people who come under their magnifying glass.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I suppose that is right.
12 MR IRVING: Let me just put to you, Professor Funke, a decision
13of the constitutional court in Germany, that, when the OPC
14ruled that a party was right-wing radical or right-wing
15extreme, or was an enemy of freedom, and I will give you
16the German in a moment, and a danger for the liberal
17democratic basic order, then this was a value judgment
18which the Federal Minister of the Interior was uttering in
19pursuance of his constitutional duty to protect the
20liberal democratic basic order. I will say it to you in
21German now (German read from document not provided). In
22other words, this is a statement of the Supreme Court in
23Karlsruhe, which states that it is purely the opinion of
24the minister when he decides that a party is right-wing
25extreme or not.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Can I see it?
1 Q. [Mr Irving] It gives the actual source. I have highlighted it in
2yellow for you. The footnote is the source.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Thank you.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] The point is that such statements defining people as
5right-wing extreme are the opinion of the minister, a
6value judgment and not a statement of fact.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Things are a bit more complicated. That is why I do not
8know, this is also important for this context, I do not
9know the context of what is said here. So there are
10different levels of decision-making processes of the
11BundesVerfassungsgerichte, the highest court in Germany.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I really do feel, I am sorry again to
13interrupt you, Professor Funke, this is not going to
14help. We are getting terribly ----
15 MR IRVING: Into detail.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, on the contrary. I think what counts is
17really what these individuals and parties have said and
18done. I take your point, which is why I did not stop you,
19that the views expressed by the OPC probably do not count
20for a huge amount, but I do not think we want to go into a
21detailed analysis of what the German Supreme Court has
22said about the way in which the OPC performs its
23function. That is what I am really getting at.
24 MR IRVING: I would hope that you would attach more value to
25the opinion of the German Supreme Court than to myself in
26this matter.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that really either in a sense
2is particularly material. That is no criticism,
3obviously, of either of you.
4 MR IRVING: As long as your Lordship bears this in mind when we
5come to judgments on these bodies and people uttered by
6the OPCs and I may remind you of it.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am more interested in Professor Funke's own
8view rather than a reflection of somebody else's.
9 MR IRVING (To the witness) : Professor Funke, lower down on
10page 10, paragraph 1.3.4, you say that some of your
11sources are what I would consider anti-fascist?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is a very interesting point.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, briefly, please?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, briefly. I had to rely for the insider report that
15was done after the Michael Schmidt film on a source that
16was given by an anti-fascist so-called, self-described
17anti-fascist group, and that is because these groups, and
18I met them personally to be sure that I get the data
19right, these groups are near to this right-wing extremist
20scenery. So, in a given moment, for a special question,
21I had, for example, to identify one of these persons,
22I had to go to these sources, but I never, by each person
23are restrained to these sources. So I checked them double
24or triple to make a good judgment.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
26 MR IRVING: So there are occasions when you can use tainted
1sources, am I right, and still establish the truth using
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not say that they are tainted sources as sources.
4They are very valid and I can prove it ditch by ditch or
5centimetre by centimetre.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, if you go to page 12 where we have the OPC defining
7what it means by the word "extremist"?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 2.6?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] This is the Office for the Protection of the Constitution
12 "defines as extremist all endeavours aimed at abusing,
13fully or in part, constitutional law and all efforts to
14replace it with a totalitarian nationalistic system".
15Now, this is your own words, and I am going to have to ask
16you when we come to these various people and figures and
17organisations whether they fit that criterion; somebody
18like Ewald Althans, was he trying to overthrow
19constitutional law and replace with a totalitarian system,
20in your view?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] As joining a neo-Nazi Party -- a neo-Nazi grouping, of
22course, of course.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is the core of it. I mean, read the text of Michael
25Kuhnen. I quote at length about the second revolution.
26It is the second revolution in the course of the Nazi
1groupings around strasse, and he rephrased it a bit and
2even sharpened it, so saying that Hitler is the hero of
3the Aryan race and so forth. So this is something.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Is the PDS an extremist body in the opinion of the OPC?
5What is the PDS?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The PDS is a party that came out of the former Communist
7SED, changed the name, changed by the course of the last
810 years parts of the ideas, parts of the electorate,
9parts of the membership, and I would describe this
10grouping, this party, as a kind of post socialistic,
11partially authoritarian sticking to the democratic liberal
12rules party. So it is a mixture, very interesting to
13observe but not by the OPC observed party.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Why does the OPC not scrutinize this left wing Communist
15party successor then which appears to fulfil the criteria?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no, this is debated, so this is a kind of tricky
17decision they have to make, if the dominant groupings in
18the party in the PDS really can be described as
19anti-constitutional or not. So this is debated, and there
20are sources that say that this is not the case and other
21sources say it is the case.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] It appears to be a bit elastic then, the way they define
23the word "extremist"?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In that sense they have to because it is clear from the
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think, honestly, we have taken this far
1enough. We are not going to get into examinations of
2totalitarian socialism. We are dealing with totalitarian
4 MR IRVING: If we now look back at the right-wing end of the
5spectrum, again the Republicans, Franz Schonhuber's Party,
6you have linked me with them, have you not?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You had some connections, some interactions, in the early
8phase of '89 and follows with them.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Where they defined by the OPC as extremist?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To a degree, it depends again because this again is a case
11not identical with the PDS, on the other side, but after a
12period of discussions and looking through the internal
13structure and ideologies of the Party, they decided to a
14degree to observe them, but, compared to the other
15parties, the NPD and the DVU, it is, you know, of lower
16intensity because of the kind of vague
17self-definition ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Before we ----
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- of the Party.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Before we leave the Republicans, is it right, in fact,
21that the Republicans fought a High Court battle in the
22Supreme Court against the Office of Protection of the
23Constitution and had the watchdogs taken off them, if
24I can put it like that?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is only the case for one State.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] For one State?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] For Berlin.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] I did not know that. So effectively ----
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And maybe some other States. I know it from Berlin, but
4it is not true for the Federal level.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you saying that the Republicans are extremists or
6not? Are you still saying they are extremists in the
7meaning ----
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I personally, in my judgment, because I did a piece on
9that, I would say they are extremists because of the
10anti-Semitic rhetoric of especially the then, the then,
11leader of the Party, Franz Schonhuber, and the furious
12hatred against foreigners he spread and leanings to
13authoritarian state likewise. So I can go into detail if
14it is necessary.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Then this brings up again your own political opinion,
16though, if you state that your personal view of Schonhuber
17or your personal view of the Republicans ----
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it is a personal scientific opinion based on an
19analysis of this party at length. My personal views are
20not of interest except your Lordship are interested in
21that, so I, of course, would be able to say something
22about my personal opinions.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Even the OPC has been ordered to take off the watchdogs in
24Berlin anyway, then this implies that they ----
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I said ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving] --- are very borderline.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have had that ----
2 MR IRVING: They are very borderline, are they?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- and we are not spending long on the OPC,
4I hope?
5 MR IRVING: I am using them as a north, a kind of pole star to
6steer the court by. What entitles you to describe the
7German people's union as being a right-wing extremist
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You mean DVU?
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, the DVU. Have you ever read their manifesto, so to
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I read a bunch of papers of them.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Are they anti-Semitic?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have even the newspapers of these days here, but maybe
15it is not of interest ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we deal with the manifestos first? Are there
17manifestos, did they have a Holocaust denial element?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I referred to the Holocaust denial publications of the
19central paper, newspaper, of this Party, the Deutche
20[German] where at length over months the [German]
21presentation of the hoax of the 20th century was
22distributed to the people who were reading this Party
24 Q. [Mr Irving] A Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany, is it not?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, to a degree, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Has the DVU ever been prosecuted for Holocaust denial or
1have any of its newspapers ever been prosecuted for
2Holocaust denial, and it would be a useful standard to
3judge by, would it not?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think they could have done but they did not.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] The answer is no?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is up to the authorities to do if there is no
7[German] ----
8 THE INTERPRETER: If there is no one claiming, no one bringing
9a court case.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If there is no one claiming this case to the court, like
11as long as there is no institution claiming the DVU was an
12unlegal party, illegal party, so it is formally legal, but
13because of the content and of the strategy, according to
14the OPC and to the social sciences right-wing extremist.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] We are dealing with the Holocaust denial element at
16present. I did not quite understand your answer. Are you
17saying that nobody prosecuted them for Holocaust denial
18because nobody complained, did I understand that?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] At that period.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] But you know as well as I do, do you not, Professor Funke,
21that under German law, as it relates to Holocaust denial,
22specifically nobody has to complain? The Public
23Prosecutor can start a prosecution even without a
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was in the '70s and it was not in the centre of
26interest and public interest is important, as you know,
1familiar with the liberal democracy.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] But at all material times for this case they have not been
3prosecuted and at any time the Public Prosecutor could
4have prosecuted the DVU if they had engaged in Holocaust
5denial within the meaning of the law?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They could have, yes, yes, they could have, definitely.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, and the same goes for anti-Semitism. Have they ever
8been prosecuted for anti-Semitic remarks?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I am not sure ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving] In any of their publications?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- that there are not some cases, so I have to restrict
12my knowledge, my answering on the -- restrict on the
13knowledge of -- restrict to the knowledge I have about
14this kind of relation between the Party and the judicial
16 Q. [Mr Irving] I have to say the correct answer is not to your knowledge
17they have not been prosecuted?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not to your knowledge, thank you.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 15, the first two or three lines?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 15?
21 MR IRVING: Page 15, the first two or three lines. You are
22saying: "Right-wing extremism is often connected with an
23ideology and/or a practical tendency towards violence,
24militancy and terror". In calling me a right-wing
25extremist, are you saying that I am a violent, militant
26and terrorizing person, is that what you are trying
1to ----
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, you have a militant rhetoric with respect to Jews.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] With respect to Jews?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And with respect to so-called other races, but you are
5not, you did not, you did not say violent things so far
6I saw it or, you know, applausing violence or instigating
7that, but you joined groups who, like the neo-Nazi groups,
8I said, I described before the break that are utterly for
9violent acts to get the second revolution done.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] If these groups that you say I joined were committing
11these illegal acts, would they not have been prosecuted or
12declared illegal at the material times or have been
13declared illegal?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] If these groups that you say that I joined had been
16committing these illegal acts under German law, would they
17not have been prosecuted or put out of business?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They are, they were.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] At the time I allegedly joined them?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was nearly in the same time, so let us talk about the
21NO invitation, the National Offensive invitation in '92,
22of Swerzik, we had it. These, the groups around the
23Michael Kuhnen crew, or let us say the
24Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, were banned to a degree in the
25same year. So Deutsche Alternative, National Offensive,
26others, were banned because of the instigation of racial
1hatred and instigation of violence against foreigners.
2This was the reason why they were banned.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] I have to hold you to this now because the question I have
4to ask you is at the time I spoke, if I spoke to any of
5the bodies that you have mentioned, were they banned or
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not, of course.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, and how could I have anticipated that at some time in
9the future in a country where there had been no bans,
10these bodies that I have been speaking to would suddenly
11find themselves banned?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] As an intelligent man who knows Germany, you could have
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Oh, yes. Can I take you back to the previous remark which
15I cannot allow it to go unchallenged where you say that
16I used militant language against the Jews, do you have any
17particular passage in mind or was this a throw-away line
18rather like the ----
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I do not do this throw-away lines. We have 40 pages
20during the ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are back now to where we were about 25
22minutes ago.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, but ----
24 MR IRVING: Very well.
25 MR RAMPTON: May I intervene? I think what Professor Funke is
26trying to say is that he has read my cross-examination of
1Mr Irving on that topic.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, well, I was going to say the same thing
3in a slightly different way. We have got the allegedly
4anti-Semitic speeches and so on that you made. Professor
5Funke, no doubt, could give evidence about it, but I
6just do not think it is a worthwhile use of the court's
8 MR IRVING: My Lord, in my ignorance, I thought it important
9not to allow that remark to go unchallenged in case
10Mr Rampton a week from now says, "This was stated and he
11did not challenge it".
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If he did, I would not listen to him.
13 MR IRVING: Professor Funke, would you look at paragraph 2.2.5,
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If I may say so, Mr Irving, whilst I am
16interrupting again and apologies for doing so.
17 MR IRVING: Slow progress?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is all very -- not much, I am bound to
19say. Again we are spending a lot of time on what we might
20call the preliminaries, whereas I read this report when he
21really is getting down to make the case he seeks to make
22against you and your connections with these various
23right-wing extremists, that really comes a good deal
24further on and ----
25 MR IRVING: Well, he is throwing in names the whole time.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know he is and we have had this sort of
1problem before, but what I would find helpful is if you
2could cross-examine about the specific instances that are
3relied on of your being associated with individuals who he
4treats as right-wing extremists or with organizations, and
5that comes really from my reading as from about 38
7 MR IRVING: Well, I would say it comes from 19 onwards, my
8Lord, which is the right-wing extremist DVU.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think I can stop you because all of
10this material is there.
11 MR IRVING: At 3.1.1 you say that Mr Irving had spoken to
12bodies and organizations like banks, bookshops, student
13fraternities, the US Army Corps and so on. You are aware
14that I also spoke at universities like Harvard, Cambridge,
15Oxford and Bonn and Geeson and Marburg, are you?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I recall Bonn, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] At 3.1.2 you criticise publishers that I deal with as
18publishing former NS, in other words National Socialist
19figures, and suggest that makes them right-wing
20extremists. Are you not familiar with the publishers who
21publish the memoirs of Albert Spear, who is another top
22Nazi? Does that make them right wing extremists? What is
23the special chemical element that turns a publisher into a
24right-wing extremist?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Good question. It is again that they did it by a special
26purpose, to present the right-wing extremist cause, as the
1GFP, the Society for Free Communication. That is part of
2the network after 45, after the ban of the clear cut
3neo-national Socialist party of Remer. Then this
4networking was a kind of replacement in the early 60s with
5Gert Sudholt and the Deutsche Kulturwerk and all this
6groupings Dietmar Munier of the Arndt-Verlag. So they
7tried to make the cause, although the whole political
8scenery is not fostering these kinds of groupings.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Would they not have been prosecuted if they had been
10publishing politically incorrect materials or illegal
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, and this is the case for some of them at least.
13I value it. It is the case, if the things are very, very
14intense, repeatedly, and going to the direction of
15hardcore right-wing extremist or neo-Nazi extremism or are
16related to violence, and of course the Holocaust denial,
17you know, groupings. These are the four dimensions in
18which official institutions intervene more than in other
20 Q. [Mr Irving] The Germans clamp down quite a bit on publishing, do they
21not? They burn a lot of books in Germany even now, do
22they not?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] The Germans burn a lot of books in Germany even now, do
25they not?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot answer this question. You allude to the burning
1of the books in 33.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] You have an index, do you not, of banned books in Germany?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well Mr Irving ----.
4 MR IRVING: The follow up question was, to your knowledge, have
5any of my books ever been banned in Germany on any of the
6indexes or lists? The answer is no, right?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. At paragraph 3.2.1 you now bring in the Socialist
9Reich Party. Do you allege that I had any contacts with
10this Socialist Reich Party?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Then why do you mention it?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No. If I may say so, you misread it. I just wanted to
14give an overview for the court that there was something,
15as I did now to the court verbatim, that there are groups
16in the early 50s of a special importance. Then it went
17down to a degree and it came in the mid or late 80s more
18to the fore and even was perceived as the danger for some
19liberal democracy basics. So this was an overview, and it
20does not mean, and I did not say, that you are related to
21these groups. You are were 14 years old when the group
22was banned, so there is no way.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] This is a report on my extremist activities so-called.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is a misreading. If it is mistaken, then I have to
25say, no, you as a 14 years old boy was not interacting
26with the then banned SRP.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, we must get on. We are really
2make no progress at all.
3 MR IRVING: Am going to ask a general question. In other
4words, you do mention an awful lot of names in this report
5without my having had any contact with them whatsoever, is
6that right? It is a total kaleidoscope of German politics
7of the last half century and I have had no contact with
8any of those names.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I need not defend my report.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer to that is yes. When
11I read it, which was a long time ago now, I got the
12impression that there was an awful lot of initials and
13names of organisations that I am not in the end going to
14have to be concerned with. Is that fair?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I disagree.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was hoping you would agree.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] But to make a point.
18 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship might like to look at it, or think
19about looking at it, in the way that I do. I am
20principally concerned obviously with Mr Irving's immediate
21and intimate contacts, who organizes the meeting, what is
22said at those meetings in particular by Mr Irving and
23those immediate contacts. However, those immediate
24contacts do have a genealogy, and that, it seems to
25me, having read the report again, is how the names, what
26I might call the outer circle of names, come into the
1picture. Whether they matter very much at the end of it
2all is a separate question.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Your Lordship, can I say something to you both?
4 MR RAMPTON: Include me as well.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Please do.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I thought I did a favour to the court and to the debate to
7try to bring this genealogy, to get a sense of this
8different political culture after 45. They have to renew
9a democracy, then they have to fight those who tried to go
10back. So I have to at least mention them, and especially
11then these persons often are the same that came to the
12fore in the late 80s, in the case of the SNP with respect
13to the founder Remer. Then I thought, OK, it is too many
14names for all of you, for all three of you, so to speak,
15and I did a short paper of 22 pages. I delivered it the
16other week to the solicitors, and I hope you will get it
17and you have it.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: As a matter of fact, I have not got it.
19 MR RAMPTON: Sorry, I did mention it.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, you did.
21 MR RAMPTON: I have got it. If, when this evidence is
22finished, your Lordship would like it, it is a convenient
23summary, but we frankly took the view that your Lordship
24is so already burdened with paper that, if we gave another
2523 pages summarizing what is already in the report, it
26might not go down all that well.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we see when the evidence is finished?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Your Lordship I tried to minimize the names to a degree
3that I, from my social science perspective, said it is
4unbearable, just to make the point.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So it is a kind of ----
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us try and be practical about it.
8Mr Irving, I think what Professor Funke is saying is that
9he is a social scientist. He therefore felt that he had
10an obligation in a way to explain really the political
11pressures and counter pressures that have been operating
12in Germany really ever since the end of the war.
13 MR IRVING: It is frightfully interesting, and I read it with
14great interest.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is all very interesting and it is
16extremely scholarly, but in the end what I am concerned
17with, and he is not really implicating you specifically in
18that, save to the extent that the background of the
19organizations may have some bearing on your willingness to
20associate with them, but in the end what I am concerned
21with is your contacts with this quite limited number of
23 MR IRVING: I agree.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I was saying to you a while back is that
25I think you should concentrate on that, not get, if I may
26say so, bogged down in the social science aspects of
1Professor Funke's report.
2 MR IRVING: I agree.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think you lose anything by taking
4that course.
5 MR IRVING: The risk we have, my Lord, is that we spoke
6yesterday of the rogues gallery that we were going to
7enter. We find ourselves in the rogues gallery with
8thousands of little photographs and now we are being told,
9well, ignore all these photographs, just pay attention to
10the six down in the bottom right hand corner. I am quite
11happy to do that as long as Mr Rampton does not later on
12say that Mr Irving has ignored all these other gangsters.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to take the Defendants' case as
14really in the end coming down to maybe a dozen
16 MR IRVING: Six.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who have been identified by Mr Rampton this
19 MR RAMPTON: It may be rather more than six.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I said a dozen. It may be more but they have
21been identified and their organizations have been
22identified, and I think, with due respect of course to
23Professor Funke, that that is what I am concerned with and
24that is all I am concerned with.
25 MR RAMPTON: To be fair, it is actually what the guts of the
26report is concerned with. It is a chronological account
1of Mr Irving's neo-fascist contacts in Germany.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am not criticising Professor Funke at
3all, or indeed Mr Irving, but I just think that we all
4need to focus on what matters, and not get sidetracked.
5 MR IRVING: Of course, the serious problem there for me is that
6I do not know what dozen names Mr Rampton is thinking
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do. We heard them this morning. Indeed
9overnight, if it would help, I suspect it would take five
10minutes for Mr Rampton or Miss Rogers to write them out on
11a piece of paper.
12 MR IRVING: That would be extremely helpful.
13 MR RAMPTON: I do not know whether Mr Irving is still getting
14the daily transcript. If he is, they will be in there.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whether he is or he is not, I think it is
16something that would not be unreasonable to invite you to
18 MR RAMPTON: I will do, but I will have to see the transcript
19myself first because my memory is fallible.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have actually been highlighting the ones
21that I think have been mentioned.
22 MR IRVING: Some are obvious but some are less obvious, if I
23can put it like that.
24 MR RAMPTON: Most of them are in the index to the two bundles
25apart from Rami and Verala that I mentioned.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are not relying on all the ones in the
1index. There are an awful lot who have not been featured
2at all.
3 MR RAMPTON: I do not know about that. Is that right?
4 MR IRVING: If we can strike out all but a dozen, then I am
5sure that your Lordship would be very happy and so would
6I. I am prepared to carry on with what I am doing at
7present, if your Lordship would indicate where I should
8resume the cross-examination from.
9 MR RAMPTON: Would Mr Irving just restrain his youthful
10enthusiasm for a moment.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why do we not do it now? Can I tell you what
12my impression is? Tell me if I have it wrong, Mr
13Rampton. If we start at the appendix, page 140?
14 MR RAMPTON: I am probably in the wrong page.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Maybe I am in the wrong bit. I think 140 is
17 MR RAMPTON: I see. I am sorry.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Maybe you have a better reference.
19 MR RAMPTON: That one?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
21 MR RAMPTON: I was going to use the two main bundles, but one
22can start with Althans.
23 MR IRVING: My Lord, I have highlighted the names that
24Mr Rampton referred to this morning.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us go through them so that we all know
26where we are. Althans, yes.
1 MR IRVING: Christophersen, yes.
2 MR RAMPTON: Yes. I will do it, if you do not mind, Mr
3Irving. Deckert yes. Dienel, yes, although there may be
4a tenuousness about the contact. It was one of the ones
5I mentioned. Felderer on page 143. Rudiger Hess
6I mentioned but I think only in passing, at the bottom of
7that page. Gottfried Kussel in the middle of the next
9 MR IRVING: Philipp.
10 MR RAMPTON: Karl Philipp on page 145. Ernst Otto or it may be
11Otto Ernst Remer at the bottom of 145. I do not remember
12whether I asked about Jurgen Rieger. He was mentioned by
13the Professor in evidence. Then we get to page 148 where
14we find Staglich, Swierczek, Walendy, and over the page
15the Worches. I do not think I mentioned Ingrid Weckert.
16I am not much interested in her.
17 MR IRVING: Thomas Wulff.
18 MR RAMPTON: I did not mention him, the Professor did.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That, I think, may be quite a useful
21 MR IRVING: As long I am not penalised for not cross-examining
22on others.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will not be.
24 MR RAMPTON: Can I say something else as well? Mr Irving is
25not going to be penalised, or I am not going to attempt to
26get your Lordship to penalise him, for not having put
1this, that or the other contradiction about this, that or
2the other figure. Where, however, the central case, as in
3some of the historical stuff, is not dealt with, I think
4I am entitled to make the assumption, maybe a provisional
5assumption or a rebuttable assumption, that the case is
6not really contested. For example, Mr Irving has already
7said that he accepts that he had a long, or whatever the
8word is, association with Althans and that Gunter Deckert
9was a friend of his. Now, if there is total silence, for
10example, in relation to the Worches, then I shall draw
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I agree with that and I think, Mr Irving,
13that you can take it that I will only concern myself with
14the alleged association you have with the individuals
15whose names we have just gone through, and with any
16organizations which it can be shown by the Defendants
17those individuals are directly connected with.
18 MR IRVING: I was about to mention the organizations, my Lord,
19because we have looked at individuals, but I am also
20accused of associating with organisations, both in Germany
21and elsewhere.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Only through these individuals, I think it is
23fair to say.
24 MR RAMPTON: And this is Germany only at the moment. The other
25people that have come have drifted in through, well,
26Zundel is actually a bit more than the side of the
1picture; other people have come from France, Spain,
2Austria and America, and they of course do count in their
3own landscaped.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There are only about four altogether.
5 MR RAMPTON: But Zundel is separate. He must not be
6forgotten. He after all was the cause of Mr Leuchter's
7martyrdom in Toronto.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think a list would be helpful. We have it
9on the transcript, Mr Rampton, at some stage, in fact
10I think overnight, if you would, a list of those things,
11plus any non-Germans.
12 MR RAMPTON: All right.
13 MR IRVING: I will cross-examine just on those tomorrow, my
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
16 MR RAMPTON: I do not think, well, I do not know. I do not say
17any more about that at the moment. We will see.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, certainly. I am encouraging you I think
19to make a start, if you would, this evening.
20 MR IRVING: Yes.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have a bit more time.
22 MR RAMPTON: If Mr Irving is in difficulty, there are some
23things I should like to mention while he finds his place,
24as it were. I now have the disk of the Eichmann memoirs,
25which I will hand to Mr Irving at the close of play, but
26on this condition for the time being. The copyright in
1this version belongs to the Israeli Government. They have
2consented that it should be used for the purposes of this
3case, but rather like the daily transcripts it cannot go
4on to Mr Irving's website.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure it is a question of copyright
6so far as I am concerned. It is more a question of the
7implied obligation in relation to ----
8 MR RAMPTON: I have given them an undertaking personally that
9it will not be used for any purpose ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but I think it is a confidentiality
11point so far as these court proceedings are concerned, and
12not a copyright point.
13 MR RAMPTON: Except that they have got the copyright on these.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure they have, but I am not so much
15concerned with that as with the fact you are disclosing it
16and it this is therefore subject to the implied
18 MR RAMPTON: Not to use it for any other purpose.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: At all events, until it is used.
20 MR RAMPTON: It will become public knowledge in due course, in
21which case it can go on anybody's website, but for the
22present -- there are terrible lawyer words about
23undertakings being muttered in my ear.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is implied undertaking.
25 MR RAMPTON: Exactly.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: As I am sure you know.
1 MR IRVING: The implied undertaking evaporates. Once it has
2been mentioned in open court, my Lord, the implied
3undertaking is destroyed.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wondered whether that point would ----
5 MR RAMPTON: No. No, that is completely wrong. Mr Irving's
6law is pretty poor in many respects and it is completely
7wrong in this respect. The implied undertaking lasts
8until the court has read the document or it has been read
9in court.
10 MR IRVING: Mentioned.
11 MR RAMPTON: No.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is an argument that I am hoping I will
13not have to resolve, because I am not sure it is quite as
14simple as that.
15 MR RAMPTON: I will not hand it over without the undertaking.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, are you prepared to give me your
18 MR IRVING: I will give the undertaking not to make any
19untoward use of it, yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, not good enough. Are you prepared to
21give me your undertaking until we can resolve this
22question, and we can set aside a little time to argue it
23if needs be, that you will not make use of this tape you
24are being handed otherwise than for the purposes of these
25proceedings and, in particular, will not put it on your
1 MR IRVING: For the purposes of this litigation, indeed, my
2Lord, yes, I give the undertaking.
3 MR RAMPTON: Thank you very much. What in fact the Israelis
4have told us is that the version which will be made
5available to the public will not be this electronic
6version; it will be a printed version.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, fine. That can be handed over.
8 MR RAMPTON: Very well.
9 MR IRVING: Thank you.
10 MR RAMPTON: I think I am wrong about what I just said about
11the law. My apologies to Mr Irving.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you are wrong too, but I did not like
13to say so!
14 MR IRVING: So who was right then?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, you were, Mr Irving. It is an unusual
16and rather curious position, but I think you are right.
17 MR IRVING: I have been in trouble about this before, that is
18why I am familiar with it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, let us press on. Can you make a
20start on what we have all agreed now is really the guts of
21Professor Funke's report?
22 MR IRVING: Yes. I think I am right in saying, my Lord, there
23were actually three more names than those listed in their
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. One is Zundel. One is the Spaniard.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Verala.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
2 MR IRVING: There is Michael Kuhnen.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Kuhnen is in the list already.
4 MR IRVING: He is not in the list.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right.
6 MR IRVING: Gary Lauck.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Lauck.
8 MR RAMPTON: I did not mention Lauck, but if Lauck is important
9let us have him.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are going to get a list of names tomorrow
12 MR IRVING: Is Dr Frey included in the list?
13 MR RAMPTON: Yes, Dr Frey was mentioned. He is in a slightly
14different category because he is DVU, but the Professor
15has explained why he puts DVU in, what shall I call, a
16slightly milder version of the radically neo-Nazi, other
18 MR IRVING: Professor Funke, Dr Frey is the Chairman of the
19DVU, is he not?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Is the DVU a democratically organized body?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, not at all.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Not at all?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not at all to the gazettes, the law of the parties, that
25includes inner party democracy, democratic procedures
26within the party system. This is ruled by special laws
1that are of interest in the public in these months in
2Germany. So it is very clear what the law said, and it is
3very clear that the DVU in its internal organization
4failed to apply to this law.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but of course the main established political parties
6also do not comply with a lot of the laws?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I alluded to that.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, Chancellor Kohl has been in trouble recently, has he
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on.
11 MR IRVING: If I draw your attention to paragraph 3 ----
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is not the Chancellor any more.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Ex-chancellor. 3.2.5, you refer to the disparagement of
14democratic institutions and persons, which is an element
15of right-wing extremism.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 3?
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 22, I am over the page. It is line 5.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Line 5.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Am I right in saying, and this is confirmed by paragraph
204.3.1 on page 46, that the DVU has fought countless
21election battles under the normal election rules, has it
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is neither here nor there, Mr Irving.
25Come on.
26 MR IRVING: It has never resorted to violent or revolutionary
1means, has it?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again?
3 Q. [Mr Irving] It has never resorted to violent or revolutionary means of
4conducting politics?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not as the party, but in the party, as I said, there were
6leanings to skinheads, violent skinheads, there were
7leanings and associations and actions by DVU members to
8this kind of violence against foreigners. There was this
9kind of support of the Wehrsportgruppe Hofmann, a very
10violent group in the early 80s or in the late 70s.
11Hofmann was then fined. So not in the centre, they were
12very cautious to circumvent any illegalising procedures.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Was politics for a time in Germany very violent when the
14East Germans Stazi were providing funds?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know what time you are referring to.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, were there violent demonstrations in Germany which
17required meetings to be protected?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving ----
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What time are you referring to?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- I thought we had agreed we were going to
21get on to the positive case that is made against you, and
22discussing whether there was violence in German politics
23when the Stazi was financing it is, I think, just too
24nebulous for the purposes of these proceedings.
25 MR IRVING: Well, the witness mentioned the use of paramilitary
26people to protect the meetings, and that was invited by
1that. On 3.2.24, paragraph 3.2.24, you mention my keeping
2company with Rudel and Remer: David Irving was keeping
3company with Nazis like Otto Ernst Remer and Hans Ulrich
4Rudel. We are not interested in Rudel, he is not on the
5list, but you say that I have kept company with General
6Remer. Have you seen any documents in my private diaries
7or elsewhere showing me keeping company with Remer?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I refer here to the data of the Schleswig-Holstein in '82,
9and that is it.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. So you rely entirely in making that statement on a
11report of the OPC?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In that respect, right.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Of the OPC, and his Lordship is not going to pay any
14attention to what the OPC says. Are you aware from the
15proceedings of this trial that I have produced a one-page
16diary entry showing me interviewing General Remer for the
17purpose of the Goebbels book and this was the only meeting
18I had with him?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If you say so.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen any other entries in my diaries indicating
21meetings with General Otto Ernst Remer, apart from
22occasions when I have spoken and he has been one of many
23faces in the audience? You have not seen any other
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems that this quotation of the OPC, of
26Schleswig-Holstein, is an overstatement.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] An overstatement, yes.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I help you, Mr Irving, by saying that
3this seems to me precisely the sort of way in which it is
4helpful to cross-examine.
5 MR IRVING: Yes.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is really intended by way of guidance.
7 MR IRVING: So, effectively, notwithstanding what we have seen
8on the video tapes of General Remer being present at
9meetings which I have spoken at, you would not say that
10I have had close contacts with him?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I would not say.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. 3.2.25 when I address the DVU rally, one of Dr
13Frey's rallies on freedom for Rudolf Hess, you object to
14my use of the word "martyrdom" or "martyr" for Rudolf
15Hess? I think we can leave that. It is not really
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I can allude to this, I can explain it, if it is of
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 3.3.2, at page 32, you say the OPC report of
201993, you are quoting that. What year does that refer to,
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The second ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this one of Dr Frey's newspapers that is being referred
24to there?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] And it published anti-Semitic articles according to the
1OPC report of 1993?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] A lot.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Had I left Germany by that time?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] When was I deported from Germany?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] End of '93.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] End of 93.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You recall that?
9 Q. [Mr Irving] It cites two examples of anti-Semitic articles. One is a
10criticism of the Edgar Miles-Bronfman, well, I do not
11think this is sufficiently important.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean I can read it.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] 3.3.11, please?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe I can just say, you know: "The German Weekly, the
15DNZ's sister papers in the Frey press imperium, presented
16one Hungarian-born son of a Jewish lawyer as the 'finance
17guru of the world', a master of financial speculation, who
18through his dealings undermines the German mark, the DWZ
19made the point that they economic recovery central Germany
20was jeopardised by Jewish restitution claims." So these
21kinds of things.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] You consider that to be anti-Semitic?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, and I can prove this by going into the sentences, if
24you want.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 3.3.11, please, page 35. This is describing the
26events we saw on the video, April 21st 1990.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 3.3.11. Thank you.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] 3.3.11.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] This is the event that led to my being put in the police
5van. You describe it as an "illegal demonstration=". Why
6do you call it an illegal demonstration?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was ----
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you any proof that it was illegal, that there were
9any arrests made for it? Was anybody fined for conducting
10illegal demonstration? What I am asking you is why do you
11call the demonstration that I was seen in illegal? You
12have no proof, right?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] No. 3.3.12 ----
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean I can allude to that bit further. It was the
16intervention of the police, you could see. So there were
17some calls in the administration to say, "this goes too
18far", because of the whole thing, of the whole
19conference. It went out. It was not asked for by the
20police, institutions. So in that sense it was illegal.
21Excuse me that I had to wait a minute to realize what it
22was about.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Let me just ask you one more question and this concerns
24the position of the police president in German life.
25Unlike England, the police president in Germany is a
26political appointment, is he not?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It depends.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] In each city?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it depends. The police president is, as I alluded to
4before, is a Staatsbeamter.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] A Civil Servant?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Civil servant, and the civil servants, as I said, have to
7stick to the laws and nothing else, whereas the
8politicians can do their own cause, be it a mayor of a
9city or so. So there is a different ruling and a
10different structure. Of course it happens that, this is
11in democracies like ours is the case, I do not know how it
12is in other countries, but, you know, they appoint a
13person of a given party or near to a given party and so
14forth. But once the position is established they have to
15shy away of these political affiliations and have to stick
16to the laws.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] He is appointed by the ----
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So it does not make a point if you say it is a politicized
19system, and so they are not, you know, whatever allowed to
20do this or that.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] But the city administration of Munich is socialist, is it
22not, it is left-wing?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It depended. I mean ----
24 Q. [Mr Irving] At this material time.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So as far as I recall, yes, but there was a time when
26there was a big debate, whatever.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, I think this might be a useful time to stop.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wondered whether you did not want to get to
3the end of paragraph 3, because that that all seems to me
4to stick together, and then there is a rather new chapter
5beginning at 4 or maybe you have not got any questions on
6the remainder of paragraph 3.
7 MR IRVING: Section 3.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, section 3 is a better word.
9 MR IRVING: Yes, I have one page of questions. Page 3.3.12 or
10paragraph 3.3.12, you refer to a leaflet put out by Ewald
11Althans containing the phrase: "300 participants joined
12David Irving in spontaneous demonstration to the
13Feldherrenhalle after our event", which is a reference to
14that demonstration we saw on the video, is it not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right, no, it is -- yes, right.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you have any evidence that I was actually on the
17demonstration that went to Feldherrenhalle, apart from
18that leaflet issued by Althans?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you saying that you did not, Mr Irving?
20 MR IRVING: I am saying I did not, yes, my Lord. In that case
21I will put to the witness the letter from Mrs Worch which
22is page 9. Can I ask you to look at page 9 in the
23documents, it is either page 9 or 10.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, 9.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this a letter from Ursula Worch and her husband
26Christian Worch written to my lawyer February 17th 1991?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] If I summarize it very quickly, the actual letter is two
3pages later on page 11 probably in German. If you look at
4the German version, if I summarize it quickly, she is
5saying that after the end of the function in the
6Lowenbraukeller there was a spontaneous public
7demonstration: "We joined in that. We lost sight of Mr
8Irving who remained in the hall", right, "before we could
9make a firm appointment. About an hour later, shortly
10before the police broke up this demonstration, we met
11Mr Irving in the street where he had been looking for us",
12right? So the scene we saw on the video, would that be
13consistent with the crowd being ushered back to the hall
14by the police who then, for some reason, started making
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean the whole thing is inconsistent. On the one hand
17you have these letters of this couple, Worch, and of
18course it has the function for, you know, for the lawyer
19and so forth, and on the other hand you have the video and
20you have the Althans presentation you just quoted. So
21there is a lot of probability that this video is more
22correct than the letter.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Professor Funke, do you remember me asking you to look at
24the video and tell the court which way this little band of
25forlorn stragglers was moving, being ushered across the
26Viennastrasse and you could not tell?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] All the evidence I have by Michael Schmidt, and especially
2Michael Schmidt who was there at the time and in his book
3and four days long, you know, whole videos of that, this
4is a short version we saw, I would say that in my overall
5cautious judgment I cannot say yes to your implication.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Since we are talking about this demonstration, I had
7£2,000 worth of books on the book table at that function.
8Would I have left them unattended with 800 people in the
9hall in order to join a demonstration?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You joined this going, and all the sources I had says,
11including Althans, that this was going to the
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you read my diary covering that particular episode?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I read.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you read the police statements that were taken
16describing what had happened in the file which was made
17available by discovery?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You know, I think I did it also in the report, I read this
19and I came to the conclusion that there are more reasons
20for the case I state that you joined for a given period of
21time this march.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] You think I would have just left £2,000 worth of books
23unattended on a book table in a beer hall with 800
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. There are other possibilities to take care
26and maybe you did and you joined. I do not know.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you remember the police statements that were made at
2the time?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I read the things that are of interest all around this
5 Q. [Mr Irving] But my question was, do you remember the police statements
6that were made covering this particular event, the
7demonstration and the reason that I was taken in and so
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think I recall, but help me.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Well, if you have not read them there is not much
11point in my putting it to you.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think I had.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware that Michael Schmidt who took the videos and
14on whom you rely is a paid police informer?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, are you aware that this emerges from the police
17dossier which is in my files which were provided by way of
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Michael Schmidt was not a police informer.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Where did the police obtain the video from on the basis of
21which they prosecuted me?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But I have no evidence that he sided police functions, no
23evidence whatsoever.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you read in the police dossier the words, "Michael
25Schmidt has come forward and volunteered to us a video
26which he took at the Lowenbrau meeting?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is a different, this a different, you know, what is
2it, observation. That does not include that he is paid or
3whatever integrated in this secret or police system.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] You referred repeatedly in your report to that fact that
5in the written agreements between myself and Dr Frey it
6was stated in writing that I would not talk about the
7Holocaust in any of my talks?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, Frey again and again reiterated that. He may have
9had reasons. I do not know.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Well, can you speculate on what the reason would be,
11possible reasons?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You were there too. The one is not to be illegalized; the
13other is that you may depart from it.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you agree that the more likely reason is in the
15German climate, that even though neither of us intended,
16neither Dr Frey nor I, should speak about that subject, it
17would be alleged against us by malicious parties and we
18wanted it therefore to be set out in writing that that was
19not an agreed topic, and that this is the reason why it
20was fixed every time in writing between us?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving] So we could not be tricked.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems the case.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, and using your own political nouse, your ability,
25your acumen, would you agree that this is probably the
26more likely conclusion on the basis of the correspondence
1as you have read it?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It does not defer from what I wrote or did I get it
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think you are all agreed. It was a
5precaution that he took to protect himself, his party and
6indeed Mr Irving from being prosecuted.
7 MR IRVING: It was a precaution we both took, my Lord. Can
8I add another question as rider? Have you seen any
9reference or indication of the fact that at any of the DVU
10meetings I departed from that agreement and that I spoke
11Holocaust denial?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean there was the quarrel between Mr Frey and Mr Irving
13with respect to the other activities you took at that
14period of time, and that was also in relation to the, to
15quote, "Hitler and Jews" thing. So this made him
16concerned that you will lose the ability, that Mr Irving,
17so to speak, lose the ability to stay freely and to speak
18freely in Germany and he lost.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but will you now please answer my question because it
20is important. Have you read any indication anywhere, in
21my diaries or on the speech notes or anything like that,
22that I spoke on Holocaust denial or the Holocaust or
23Auschwitz at any of the meetings that Dr Frey commissioned
24me to speak at?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I recall not, no.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] And the same goes for anti-Semitism of course, that I did
1not go vapouring on against the Jews at any of these
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I see, not with respect to the DVU, but in other
4circumstances very different.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] We will take each one as we come to it. In paragraph
63.4.1, and I am nearly at the end, you say that I was a
7main speaker for the DVU?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Is not the correct way to say it in fact that I was
10speaker frequently hired by the DVU as an historian, that
11I never spoke for them? I was not a spokesman for them?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You were a star speaker used by the political party for
13political aims.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Why do you call me an agitator for the DVU in that same
15paragraph, an agitator?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Because of that.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you like to justify the last sentence beginning,
18"The DVU is itself a party that propagates hatred against
19foreigners, an-Semitism, revisionism, incites violence"?
20Is this not again an example of your loose writing, you
21just throw these things in there?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not with respect to the DVU. As I stated it before, you
23did not do that. Is it is very interesting to describe
24this. The speaker, Irving, is cautious in sticking to the
25law as he can with respect to the DVU, but the DVU itself
26is taking him as a star speaker, and representing their
1cause or its cause as an anti-Semitic, right-wing
2extremist, and often denialist, as you can see in the
3newspapers and as are referred to by the articles thing.
4So it is a kind of mutual interaction with often very
5cautious tactic lines.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] But, Professor Funke, each of those activities or
7agitation factors that you list there, propagating hatred
8against foreigners, anti-Semitism, inciting violence, each
9of those would be an illegal activity if it was true. So
10why was the DVU never prosecuted, as you say it was not?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You asked that before.
12 MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord, but I wanted to underlined the point,
13if the DVU is accused in that sentence of conducting these
14activities, it seems highly improbable given that they
15were never prosecuted.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Again, Mr Irving took sides with this extremist party, and
17I can go into details of how intense anti-Semitic party
18members and the newspapers are. There is no doubt about
20 Q. [Mr Irving] But not in the extreme form.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The other part of the answer is that that does not mean
22that this party is illegal, because of the special
23importance parties, as parties, were given by the
24constitutional law as a reaction to the period before, and
25that includes that the political party has a special ----
26 THE INTERPRETER: A right to participate.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- stated by the constitutional law directly. So it is
2very difficult to push aside parties when they not only
3claim but by their structure are parties, although they
4may not be in the internal structure democratic ones.
5This is why at the beginning it was so extended to
6describe the specifics of the German political system and
7the right-wing extremist cause they have to fight.
8 MR IRVING: I think it would be easier to deal with
9personalities tomorrow, my Lord, because the organizations
10are clearly problem.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that I have some idea of the timing, how
12much cross-examination?
13 MR IRVING: I have one more day at this rate, less than a day.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: A day of cross-examination of Professor
16 MR IRVING: I think so, yes.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Your original estimate was half a day.
18 MR IRVING: I will abbreviate it then.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, do not do it because I say that.
20 MR IRVING: Your Lordship is excellent at brooming me along and
21making me scrap hours of work.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a matter for you to take whatever
23course you think.
24 MR IRVING: If I know your Lordship is not going to pay
25attention to those matters ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have give you a very, very clear
1indication I hope of what I would be paying attention to.
2 MR IRVING: Had I had that indication last night ----
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I agree, but I did not know what you were
4going to be asking about. 10.30 tomorrow.
5 < (The witness withdrew)
6(The court adjourned until the following day)