text:
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition
Pages 1 - 204 of 204
1996 I. No. 113
2Royal Courts of Justice
3Strand, London
4 Wednesday, 1st March 2000
10Claimant -and-
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
Counsell &Company)
1 (10.30 a.m.)
2 < Professor Funke, recalled.
3< Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving?
5 MR IRVING: My Lord, I have put two small bundles in front of
6your Lordship. One is a bundle of photographs which I do
7not propose to dwell very much on. I think I will spend
810 seconds looking at each one with the witness. They are
9photographs of German meetings. They are minor points to
10be made possibly on each of the photographs. Some of he
11meetings we are familiar with, and some not.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
13 MR IRVING: The second bundle, my Lord, I have yesterday taken
14the Eichmann papers, which is what I am now holding in my
15hand. I have converted them to hard copy. I would be
16quite happy to make that available to the Defence. I have
17extracted five or six pages already, which are the only
18pages I have found with a word search for "Fuhrer" or
19"Hitler" in any substance. They may help the Defence,
20they may help me, I have not really looked at them, but
21I have put them there in case there is any need for
22immediate action on them.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you are not going to deal with them
24with this witness anyway?
25 MR IRVING: No, my Lord.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we will put that on one side.
1 MR IRVING: Except that lower down on the same bundle there are
2one or two things that I probably will draw the witness's
3attention to.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, do we have a list of the alleged
6 MR RAMPTON: Yes, we do.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was thinking it might be helpful to have it
8at this stage.
9 MR RAMPTON: Yes. So, it is a list of the alleged extremists,
10it is a list of the important ones for this part of the
11case. There is an "Others" category which really does not
12directly concern Professor Funke.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Yes, Professor?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Can I add three remarks from yesterday?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, if you wish to.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] When?
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Yes, now.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK, good. I rethought the coverage of 9th November '91 in
19Halle and, to my best knowledge, the NB, the National
20Bloc, is not as I said from the Ruhr area, but from
21Bavaria under the leader of Manfred Eichmann. This is the
23 The second, I did not get the protocol of
24yesterday, so -- the minutes of yesterday, so I do not
25know if I got special question of David Irving right. So
26in the case I did not I want just to state that in those
1pictures we saw he did not allude to direct forms of
2anti-Semitism, but that does not mean that he did not do
3this in the German, you know, appearances, and also if you
4see the whole text of the speech in Munich, I would claim
5this has anti-Semitic sentiments in it. The second one.
6 MR IRVING: Which speech in Munich are you referring to?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yours.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Well I spoke in Munich about 30 or 40 times probably.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The one we saw on the video, I imagine.
10 MR RAMPTON: Can I intervene at that stage, to point something
11out, and it is this. If we are talking about the first
12Munich meeting, the one which has "Wahrheit macht frei"
13and David Irving's name on the placard underneath it. Our
14understanding from the diary of Mr Irving, first of all,
15is that he spoke twice at that meeting, once before the
16interval and once after.
17 The second thing, we learned from his reply,
18that he spoke altogether for about an hour, and that he
19said he was going to rely on the text of what he said at
20the trial of this action.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have not had anything?
22 MR RAMPTON: I have never had the tape or a transcript of it.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Irving, what about that?
24 MR IRVING: My Lord, obviously, at one time I had anticipated
25that I had a tape of it. In fact, I think there is
26correspondence indicating that I believed I did have a
1tape of it, but I have disclosed all my tapes and
2cassettes to the defence in this matter, nothing has been
3withheld. I had no idea what was on the video cassettes
4because I did not have a video player.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In the light of that, Mr Rampton, I think it
6has to be left to cross-examination.
7 MR RAMPTON: Well, I think it will. There are some other
8things I want to raise in relation to discovery in
9cross-examination. I am a little concerned, however,
10about the time-scale, because the cross-examination of
11Mr Irving by me, which might last a day, or a day and a
12bit, I hope we will be finished this week.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So do I.
14 MR RAMPTON: That will be the last of the evidence. I cannot
15say any more than that.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, obviously, I am not going to cut off
17Mr Irving. I have given an indication that I think the
18scope of cross-examination of this witness is relatively
19limited. You have, if I may say so, taken hints in the
20past, but you must take your own course, this is not a
21direction of any sort.
22 MR IRVING: Next week, of course, I will have some submissions
23to make.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. You both will. Anyway, shall we
25press on? Is there anything else?
26 MR RAMPTON: Is it appropriate to say something about, if we
1are talking about closing speeches, about timing, at this
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we wait until after we have dealt with
4(if I may so put it that way) Professor Funke?
5 MR RAMPTON: It is only this, that there are a number of people
6here, and I do not shrink from saying, including me ----
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Oh, I see, you mean how long an interval? Is
8that what you are getting at?
9 MR RAMPTON: Yes, because there are "social" is the wrong word,
10but there are what one might call arrangements which have
11to be made. I have been talking earnestly with
12Miss Rogers, as I often do, and we are very anxious
13because of what might happen here after in another place,
14as the lawyers call it, that we leave no stone unturned to
15make sure that your Lordship has as much material as we
16would like you to have. Of course, I say without any kind
17of sycophancy, that I am confident that the case is in
18place already, but I cannot actually, in my client's
19interests, take that risk. Therefore, we want to do a
20long rather than a short job. I can do a short job. I
21can probably do it from memory, but I do not want to do
22that. It did seem to us we would need at least a week to
23get the thing properly in place. I am strongly of the
24view, as an advocate, I do remember, like your Lordship,
25in those days being of similar view, I think that it is
26not desirable that the Defendant makes a speech before a
1weekend and the Claimant or Plaintiff after the weekend.
2Both should come in the same week.
3 My proposal is that I should start on Monday
413th, which is a week from the coming Monday and that
5Mr Irving should have as much time as he likes thereafter,
6subject, obviously, to case control.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, do you have any views about that?
8 MR IRVING: Whether it would be Monday 13th or not I think is
9in the stars, because if Mr Rampton wishes to have a clear
10week, presumably, that clear week starts running from the
11end of the time I have put in documents and so on by way
12of submission, which may take more than a day.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, well, what I would be inclined to think
14in terms of, and we might have to revise this, is to have
15the whole of next week for preparing speeches, and if we
16do not finish the evidence by close of play on Thursday,
17then I think perhaps we can nibble into the week, because
18it seems to me that Monday the 13th would be a good day to
19have as a target for the start of closing speeches.
20 MR RAMPTON: I would rather nibble into Friday if it came to
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I do not dispute that at all.
23 MR IRVING: I am afraid I do, because there is a German saying
24(German spoken) which means that a lot of dogs spell death
25to the hare, and there is a lot of dogs on the other side
26with no disrespect and there is one hare on this side.
1I am carrying the ball entirely myself.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that.
3 MR IRVING: I cherish every day that I have for preparation.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I tell you what I propose to deal with that,
5is for you to have the opportunity to indicate during the
6course of that week, the week prior to 13th March, that
7you falling behind or whatever, if you really need more
8time, I do not myself think you will because you have a
9great capacity for getting through the material, but if
10you are finding it difficult then obviously I would be
11very sympathetic to further time.
12 MR IRVING: I do not necessarily see the reason why it has to
13be a Monday Mr Rampton has to start unless he intends to
14speak for three whole days.
15 MR RAMPTON: I doubt he will speak for three whole days but he
16might speak for the best part of one whole day.
17 MR IRVING: That will allow both speeches to come within of
18compass of one week.
19 MR RAMPTON: Yes. I do not mind, I was not (to use a bit of
20Latin) I was not trying to fix Monday, 13th, as a terminus
21post quo nome, but as a terminus quo nome, if I can put it
22like that, meaning to say that I do not mind when it is,
23but I do not want it before Monday 13th.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we are thinking in broadly the same
26 MR RAMPTON: I would only make other observation, it is not
1right for Mr Irving to talk about dogs and hares when
2after all it is a pack of hares that is being chased by
3one dog.
4 MR IRVING: Rabbits.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Professor Funke, you have something
6else to say? You did only mention two, yes.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. It relates to the Congress of 21st April '90 in
8Munich. I read the diary again and there is clearly
9described how and what form it was illegal, and that was
10the reference I had also to write it in my report. It was
11illegal demonstration after the Congress, and it is stated
12very clearly. The other thing I have to mention that to
13my best assessment the diary and the video converts to
14that, that at a given period of time he was with
16 THE INTERPRETER: Marching along with?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Along with Kuhnen and the others towards the Vertherren
18Halle. I think it is very clear if you put these things
19together and also the letters Mr Irving gave us yesterday
20in the bundle J.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much, Professor Funke, for
22those three points. Mr Irving?
23 MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not think your Lordship will attach
24much attention to whether other members of the audience
25went off on a demonstration which was illegal or not.
26I would invite straightaway, therefore, this witness to
1have a look at page 11 of the little bundle.
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This new one or the old one.
3 MR IRVING: It is today's bundle.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Today's bundle? OK.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] It is the bundle beginning with some German pages. If you
6look at page 11, that should be the diary concerned, April
721st 1990, is that correct?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I have here ----
9 Q. [Mr Irving] No, not photographs. It is another bundle.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me. It is a new bundle of yesterday?
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Of today.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Today, OK, good.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 11. Is this the diary entry to which you have just
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems to, yes, in a different written form.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] A different format, yes?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, format.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, I do not propose to read the whole diary entry
19out, of course, but I would just invite this witness ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If Miss Rogers can give me the reference in
21RWE 1 or 2, I would be grateful for this diary entry,
22April 21st.
23 MS ROGERS: If it is on 21st April, it is RWE 2, tab 11, pages
2419 to 20.
25 MR IRVING: My Lord, what I have given your Lordship in this
26morning's bundle is the entire diary entry. I am not sure
1how far the entry has been redacted, if at all, in RW----
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on with it.
3 MR IRVING: Would you just run your eye down those two pages
4which I have given you?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Beginning with the first page, page 11, the second
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Beginning with the phrase: "The audience stormed out into
10the streets"?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] "Taking about half an hour to assemble outside, I remained
13inside", does it say that?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] How could I have joined a demonstration if I remained
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Look ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Selling books, pack ----
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- look further down to your own diary.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Then it says: "Job finished. The driver suggested he
21drive me to the Hotel Dreilogen?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] "Via the route", in other words, "driving by the route
24taken by this spontaneous demonstration"?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] So I was not part of the demonstration; I was driving past
1it to see what the fuss was because there had been police
2flashing lights, and so on? Right?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I see it.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] "I got out of the car" -- this is four lines from the
5bottom "because I sighted my dinner guests. Crossed to
6say hello to them. There was some annoyance on the part
7of the demonstrators that I had not been with them". Did
8you see that? Why did you not quote that?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right, right.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] I was not part of the demonstration. I do not really
11want, unless you wish to draw attention to any other parts
12of that diary entry?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I suspect he wants to read on to the bottom
14of the page, is that right?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Shall I read it to the court?
16 Q. [Mr Irving] No. Read the bits of it that you rely on.
17 MR IRVING: Yes.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So, "I sighted Uschi who had invited me to dinner. Got
19out of car after Daniel Hecht", I think, "crossed to say
20hello to them. Some annoyance on the 250's part that
21I had not been with them. I explained I had to pack
22things up. Two minutes later police trucks arrived with
23reinforcements. Announced over loud speakers, 'Dieses ist
24ein angemieldete Sammlung, es ist verbotten. Sie haben
25alle nach Hausen zugehen'". "This is an illegal
26demonstration". I can translate it shortly. If you want
1it precise, do it, yes.
2 THE INTERPRETER: "This is a translation (sic) which no notice
3has been given of. It is forbidden. You are all
4requested to go home"?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right. And I refer to this being "forbidden" in my
6report ----
7 THE INTERPRETER: Ordered to go home?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- or words to that effect.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He adds, so then: "Road cordons were thrown across the
11street ahead of us and we were told to filter through
12single and disperse. I found myself in an embarrassing
13position, unwilling to desert audience, but equally
14unwilling to end up being coshed by a policeman".
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Coshed by a policeman?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. "I filtered forwards and after minutes hold up I was
17allowed through by the cordons. 30 seconds later I was
18arrested by a small Italian-looking moustached police
19officer aged perhaps 35 who declared me to be a
21 Q. [Mr Irving] We do not need the rest.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is the point. If you take this part and see the
23video, there is the moustached and so forth officer and
24you see before, you know, a march route of a given
25people. In the front Mr Irving, behind Michael Kuhnen.
26So, of course, it was some minutes, but you were asked by
1the crowd to enter and you did.
2 MR IRVING: You say some minutes. Can I ask you about the
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know the time-scale. I just saw the video and
5I saw your diary and I saw another clip of Althans given
6to Zundel or by Zundel presenting the case further down in
7this document.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I draw your attention to the second line of that
9second paragraph on page 11: "I remained inside selling
10the books, packaging them up and supervising their loading
11into the two cars". How long do you think that took?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] £2,000 worth of books had to be packaged into boxes, the
14boxes sealed, loaded into two cars -- three quarters of an
15hour, an hour?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have no problem with that. I did not say you went all
17along, I do not know, maybe. There is, by the way, if
18I may add this, there is a longer version of this video,
19and if it is necessary, if this is a decisive point for
20the assessment, if I may add ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It does not strike me as a decisive point. I
22think we can move on.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Then I would ask to get this to the court, but it is very
24difficult because it is in the hands of Michael Schmidt
25and I have to figure out where he is.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know what the issue is.
1 MR IRVING: One more question and this is will you accept,
2because I asked you this question two or three times
3yesterday, the video shows clearly that these rather
4bestraggled demonstrators are actually returning from the
5demonstration they had been off to at the time I joined
6them and they are heading north ----
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That does not fit.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Excuse me, they are heading north at the time I joined
9them, in other words, it is all over -- and do you
10remember me asking you these questions yesterday?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] And you made out that you could not recognize the victory
13monument behind them and so on?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There is no probability for that. You know, it fits so
15well with what you are writing in the diary and what is
16shown in the video that I cannot say "yes" to this
18 Q. [Mr Irving] So you do not accept that it took me one hour to load the
19boxes of books into the car and to drive off to the hotel
20and then come back and find the demonstrators walking back
21from their demonstration at this time this misfortune
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean, you had a lot of books to sell, but you need not
24an hour. I do not know how long it took.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Very well. Would you now just have a brief look at
26photographs, please? The second bundle of photographs.
1We will go through these very quickly. Photographs 1 and
22 are photographs of a meeting of the DVU. Can you see
3their flag around the podium?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, not with this coverage, I mean.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] All right.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot see.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] If you look at the people sitting in the audience there,
8can you see any skinheads or bovver boots?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot see. It is so dark, you see, your Lordship. I
10cannot see it. Maybe ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Look at page 2. It is better.
12 MR IRVING: Perhaps you can borrow mine a second.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is better, excuse me.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you see any skinheads or bovver boots or musclemen?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot say yes or no, because, you know, in the first,
16in the first lines they are all with ties and, you know,
17as DVU presents itself.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] And the next photograph is a bit clearer?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But I cannot say yes to your question because afterwards
20it is totally unclear and I know that DVU has this kind of
21skinhead appearances.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is that photograph.
23 MR IRVING: Can you see any banners around the hall with
24anti-Semitic slogans or Holocaust slogans or anything at
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] No banners at all?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] The next photograph, page 3, please?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 3?
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Does this appear to be police protecting a rather pleasant
6country building against a number of young people?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems to.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What is it?
10 Q. [Mr Irving] It is in Cologne. I will have to tell you, you will have
11to just take my word for where these places are. The
12places are not important really. The next photograph,
13photograph 5 -- we will just go through them very quickly
14-- is the Congress Centre in Hamburg?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you see again a line of police protecting the building
17against, no doubt, unfriendly people outside?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot say unfriendly, I just see police caps.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Shoulder to shoulder, massed against -- protecting the
20entrance to the building?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot say anything else because it is unclear. I do
22not know where and when, so...
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You may say.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you like to have a look at photograph No. 9,
26please? This is the Palace of Culture from Dresden which
1is one of the lectures you refer to, 13th February 1990,
2I think. There are no kinds of banners or placards or
3anything anywhere, are there?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems not. There is a picture, you know, I think you
5are speaking there, and ----
6 Q. [Mr Irving] And a picture of myself on the podium?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, seems to, but I do not know what is written around,
8above and...
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, we cannot read that.
10 MR IRVING: Photograph No. 10 is obviously some years earlier?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Does it look as though I am addressing members of the
13German Bundeswehr that this is obviously a function ----
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, seems to, at least the uniforms they are wearing.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Photograph No. 11 is the Leuchter press conference to
16which you refer. It is a sparsely attended press
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Where is it?
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you got photograph No. 11?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, but where?
21 Q. [Mr Irving] It is in my home in London.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Photograph 12, another typical speech that I address in
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Where is it?
26 Q. [Mr Irving] That is somewhere in Battenwurtenburg, Singlfingen,
1I think?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Is it Dria?
3 Q. [Mr Irving] I beg your pardon?
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it does not really matter, does it?
5I am not sure these photographs are helping all that much,
6Mr Irving.
7 MR IRVING: There are no placards, no skinheads. No. 14,
8I think you probably have my labels now?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, Hagenau you say?
10 Q. [Mr Irving] No. 14 is Hagenau.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you see any of your suspects in that photograph?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What are you saying?
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Any of your suspects, like Remer or Kussel or any of these
15names you are talking about? Are they in that photograph
16or the next one?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to put up this...
18 Q. [Mr Irving] These photographs were all available for discovery, my
19Lord, and not used. Photograph No. 16 ----
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Wait, wait. I have to see the people. Excuse me. It is
21not so easy. You know better. It is just 10 faces to 10
22faces, right, to see and whatever 80, I cannot see.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you say it is a very extremist just by the look of
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you cannot possibly answer from the
26backs of people's heads whether they are extremist.
1 MR IRVING: Precisely. Your Lordship has made exactly the
2point I was hoping that the witness would make.
3Photograph 16, is that the Lowebrau Bierhall in Munich?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know, maybe.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Obviously dressed up for some kind of function, listening
6to me speak?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Where is it? When is it?
8 Q. [Mr Irving] In Munich.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] When is it?
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Probably about 1984, thereabouts, 1989. That again is the
11kind of audience -- they do not look particularly extreme
12or violent?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In '94 you were in Germany?
14 Q. [Mr Irving] No, '84. No. 17, there is a meeting to which you refer.
15Is it not a demonstration, photograph No. 17?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] German historians, liars and cowards?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Who is the left person?
19 Q. [Mr Irving] That is Mr Pedro Varela. Do you recognise him?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Does he look like a violent person or extreme?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, again....
23 MR IRVING: The point is it is difficult to judge by
24appearances. I mean, I might be violent or extreme. The
25point I am trying to make, witness, and would you agree
26with, is, it is difficult to tell when you look at an
1audience who the people are? We do not know who is in
2this court room, we might have John George Hague, the acid
3bath murderer. He might be one of these members of the
4public or someone like that and we do not know, do we?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, the case against you is not that
6these people look like extremists, but that they have a
7track record of extremism and that you associated with
8them. So I do not think we want to spend terribly long on
9their physical appearance.
10 MR IRVING: Yes. But unless I am mistaken also the case
11against me is in part that these extremist organisations
12that I have been addressing, you would have expected all
13the trappings, "bovva boots", skinheads and flags --
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that point.
15 MR IRVING: And the rest of it. These, on the face of it,
16these meetings appear to be respectable, middle-class,
17rather boring lectures.
18 (To the Witness) Now I would like to return to
19your report, please, page 39.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Just a second.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] You refer to the NPD, can I ask you the simple question;
22is the NPD illegal or banned?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Just a second. What page?
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 39 of your report.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So be it.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Is the NPD -- it is a political party in Germany, is it
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it illegal or banned?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is not banned.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] So there is no reason why one should not address if one
6was invited to a function organized by NPD, or is there?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I stated yesterday it is formally not legal, but it is
8perceived by the social sciences, as well as by the
9official institutions as a hardcore, right-wing extremist.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, well, we know how much weight we have attach to that,
11I think.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, we are different on that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but the left wing --
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, do not argue about it, we have the
16 MR IRVING: You mention Franz Schonhuber, I am not going to
17dwell upon him, but he was a popular Bavarian television
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Which is how I first came to know him. I was on his show,
21is that correct?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not --
23 Q. [Mr Irving] So that is how I first came to know him. Lower down that
24page you refer to a man at 4.1.3, a man, Gottfried Kussel,
25do you have any evidence at all that I have any kind of
26contacts with Mr Kussel?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- you were at the same demonstration, for example.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Being in the same room, that kind of thing?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I alluded to that, that that is different and the Halle
4demonstration, he was at the top of this demonstration and
5that shows something for this kind of demonstration. It
6is not like a, you know, anarchist way, they are this and
7they are the others, he was at the top of the
9 Q. [Mr Irving] You mean at the front --
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He represented, at the head of it, yes, and he represented
11the new leadership of the Kuhnen connection where you
12spoke to.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] -- yes.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To whom you spoke.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not want to interrupt you, but we certainly do not
16want to view that video again unless his Lordship orders,
17but you are not suggesting in any of those shots showing
18Mr Kussel I was also visible?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The shots we did not see shows the hotel hall in the
20longer version and I saw it several times, and there the
21people went out and in, and you were asked you if you
22would -- so far as I recall, but we have to see it then
23again, if you will also meet Kussel and you said something
24I cannot recall. So it was -- you were aware somehow, and
25you drove to Halle I think three hours or more from
26Hamburg with Uschi or Ursula Worch, one of the leaders of
1this Kuhnen connection at that time, so you may have
2known, and if not it seems, for me at least, you are
3responsible not to whom you speak to.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] So to boil down what you are saying, what you are saying
5is I was in the same large city as Kussel and that he was
6at the head of the demonstration on shots of film we have
7seen but I am not in those shots and that you say there
8are other shots of film -- are you saying that I am
9together with him in those shots of film?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. But you were together at the meeting,
11he -- if we go very carefully through the video again
12I think you will see him at the spot where you spoke. So
13you cannot deny, you cannot deny that this is a
14Kussel/Kuhnen connection, demonstration to whom you
15spoke. This is a clear cut case. You know it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Now you are bringing in Michael Kuhnen. We have already
17established that I have no contact whatsoever with Michael
18Kuhnen --
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It does not matter, we refer -- we agreed even to call
20these groups "the Kuhnen crew" or "the Kuhnen connection",
21we can also say "Sinnungsgemeinschaft". So I know what
22I am speaking about. These groups at that very meeting at
239th November '91 met. These were clear cut neo-Nazi
24groups organized by Christian Worch, by Uschi Worch and
25you were invited by Uschi Worch the other day in the
26evening, according to a diary, to meet this demonstration
1and to talk to them.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, this is getting a bit repetitive, if
3I may say so, I have the evidence about Kussel. I think
4he can move on now.
5 MR IRVING: Yes. Footnote 117 on that page, 39, we find
6Deckert, how many meetings do you think that the
7schoolteacher, Dr Deckert, organized for me as chairman?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- I do not know, you know better.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Two meetings; is that right?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] One in Stuttgart and one in Weinhart?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Could be, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Both reputable bodies?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me?
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Both reputable bodies, the one in Stuttgart was to a
16veterans association, the one in Weinheim was to some
17other little splinter group?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know, you know better. But I know what you spoke
19to and who Deckert is, and for the Lordship I just want to
20remind you that this is very famous and influential member
21of the NPD at that time, and got a bit later the
22leadership of this same NPD, and in which in that time the
23NPD radicalized with respect to hardcore revisionism, and
24with respect, and this is even for my assessment more
25important, radicalized in organizing these groupings we
26are talking -- we talk just a minute -- we talked just a
1minute about -- no, we talked about just a minute ago, for
2example, in Halle.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] These groupings came after they were banned
5in '92, '93, '94, '95, all the more to this NPD organized
6and led by this Deckert, so a you have good friend.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] You are talking '92, '93, '94, it is getting rather vague
8now, because from '93 onwards I was never in Germany?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh, no, I can be very precise. I said bans were sent to
10these groups from '92 onwards.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I make it very simple for you --
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You were there, or you could go into the country, and you
13did up to the end of '93.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] -- 9th November 1993. Let me make simple for you,
15Dr Funke, and ask outright, do you know of any occasion
16when I addressed a meeting to an organization which was at
17that time illegal or banned in Germany?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I know you do not address a meeting that was
19banned -- of a group that was banned at that time.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Thank you.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That was not my point at all.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] You say you have seen the correspondence between myself
23and Gunther Deckert who is one of names on the list?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Your footnote on page 39.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, OK.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Was there anything extremist about that correspondence?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We go into the correspondence.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, if we must, yes, but --
4 MR IRVING: Can I ask you if there was any anti-Semitism
5expressed in that correspondence?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to go into -- you know, piece by piece and then we
7can decide.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: RWE 2, tab 8.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 2, tab 8, excuse me, I am not familiar with this (Pause).
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, did I tell you the wrong one, it
11is my fault, maybe it is 9, RWE tab 9.
12 MR IRVING: I am not sure this is the right way to do this, my
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, this is not really your fault. I think
15this is not going to be a productive exercise. If you do
16not object, Mr Irving, do you mind me asking Mr Rampton,
17he may not be able to help off the top of his head, but is
18there anything you particularly rely on in the Deckert
19correspondence as being extremist? I have looked through
20the index and there does not appear to be anything.
21 MR RAMPTON: Not as being explicitly extremist, no.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Otherwise, we will spend half an hour
23trawling through for no purpose.
24 MR RAMPTON: I quite agree. If I should find something --
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can re-examine.
26 MR RAMPTON: Then I shall include it in some submissions later.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Or re-examination.
2 MR IRVING: Let me ask, Dr Funke --
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Just a second, can I just go through 30 seconds more?
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, if you find some extremist references.
5 MR IRVING: That will be very helpful.
6 MR RAMPTON: I would not expect to find it in the
7correspondence anyway.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Nor would I , which is why I wonder what the
9purpose of this is.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- oh, yes.
11 MR RAMPTON: I would, would I?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, you would, I have one, but I want to use my 20
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You might extend that briefly.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I am not -- I refer to the following, it is II, it is at
16the beginning of No. One, tape 8, and the second page,
1712th May '91, right. Do you have it? II.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Yes.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There in the middle it is stated, but I have to check what
20are the references, the audio cassette and what have you,
21"in three/four years, at the latest, these legends will
22no longer hold water the legend will be over and then the
23tables will be turned and the whole" and so forth drowned
24out in past. This statement, if this is included in what
25you referring to here, we have to go to the sentence
26before and after, so far I see it can be referring to the
1Holocaust thing. If so, then of course it fits in my
2perception of what is extremist.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
4 MR IRVING: He organized a meeting for me in Weinheim on
5September 3rd 1990, did he not, nearly ten years ago now;
6is that right?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, it is the time that is of interest.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, he has been in prison for seven years for being
9chairman of that meeting, has he not?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not think so, seven years, but --
11 Q. [Mr Irving] He is still in prison now?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- but several times, for a quite lot of time, right.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
14 MR IRVING: Paragraph -- do you approve of the imprisonment of
15people for chairing meetings where historians speak?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do not think that is helpful.
17 MR IRVING: Paragraph 4.2.6 on page 42, you mention --
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK, just a second I have to, it is not so wide this
19space. 42, you say?
20 Q. [Mr Irving] -- page 42, paragraph 44.2.6.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] You mention Worch, Christian Worch and his wife Uschi?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] You rightly say that I am close friends or was close
25friends with that family. Worch is a trained lawyer, is
26he not?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know that he is a trained lawyer, but he was a
2kind of assistant to a lawyer, and in that function he
3acted also in his political.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Had he not studied law?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I know he was in the lawyer -- as a lawyer's firm
6as an assistant. He did not study law so far as I know.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] At the time --
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To my best knowledge.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] -- at all material times had he a criminal record?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me?
11 Q. [Mr Irving] At all the material times that I was dealing with him had
12he a criminal record, to your knowledge?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, there was -- he was sentenced, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] What, under German laws for suppression of free speech or
15under regular criminal...
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean under regular German law that includes some limits
17to freedom of expression. You know that.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Well --
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The point was, it was put in a slightly
20tendentious way, but were these conviction for speaking
21about the Nazi era?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- yes, I have to look up. It was in the ----
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Well, did he have any convictions which were for petty
24theft or burglary?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Because of his activities, yes, definitely.
26 MR IRVING: He is another politically incorrect friend of mine?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You say so.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] No, that is the question, as viewed from the left, he is
3politically incorrect?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I only refer to letters, that includes the German law and
5you may call this "political correctness" what the German
6laws are doing, fine with you.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not want to have too long answers to this, but under
8German --
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Very short --
10 Q. [Mr Irving] -- under the German constitution freedom of speech is
11protected, is it not?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know what the position is.
13 MR IRVING: But except for one exception.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think we need any questions and
15answers about it.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- no, there are more than one exception.
17 MR IRVING: Paragraph 4.2.14, page 45.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] You mentioned here on line 5 a lunatic, in my view, called
20Gary Lauck?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What line?
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Line five, you mention a American gentleman of
23questionable mental stability, in my view, called Gary
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not on the list.
1 MR IRVING: Is he not on the list? Am I not going to be
2questioned about Lauck?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, he is not on list and I am therefore
4assuming he is not one of those who is relied on by the
5Defendants as a right-wing extremist associate.
6 MR IRVING: Paragraph 4.4.1, this is not one of the people that
7is a reference to the Leuchter report, Anthony Zundel. It
8is accepted, of course, that I know Zundel and I have had
9contact with Zundel, right? You state in paragraph 4.4.1
10in line 4 that "he was found guilty of peddling
11anti-Semitic propaganda"; was that the actual charge?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to look. Can you translate this sentence to be
13very precise.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Line 4?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To my best knowledge, but maybe there is more to it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, he was not actually convicted of peddling
17anti-Semitic propaganda, the charge was spreading false
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, but this kind of false information, I would call it,
20that is in the realm of anti-Semitism, so it is my
21judgment, or my assessment to that.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] But you accept that that is not actually what he was
23charged with or convicted --
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No problem with it.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] -- you also accept the conviction was subsequently
26overturned by Canada's Supreme Court?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I know.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] And that he has no convictions, he is free of any
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know if he is now free of any conviction.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Let me put that the other way round, are you aware of any
6conviction against him which has been upheld?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know, I have to say I do not know.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] If no conviction against Ernst Zundel has been upheld he
9is less of a convict than I am?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think the point is whether these
11people have convictions, Mr Irving, it is what they say
12and do, not whether they are found to be guilty of some
13local law.
14 MR IRVING: It is a question of degree, my Lord. People like
15Anthony Eden or Lord Halifax, as we know, made
16anti-Semitic remakes in private and other people go around
17smearing swastikas on synagogue. One end of the scale is a
18criminal conviction, other end of the scale is people's
19rather tasteless private rights to freedom of speech.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The point I am trying to make is what they do
21and say, not whether they are convicted or whether they
22are not.
23 MR IRVING: The fact they are convicted or not is a useful
24indicator for us as to the severity of the anti-Semitism
25which has been a component of their actions, in my view.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
1 MR IRVING: Or a possible one.
2 MR RAMPTON: So then are Mr Irving's convictions going to stand
3here in this court as evidence of his guilt of
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I understand the intervention, but the answer
6is "no".
7 MR RAMPTON: Quite.
8 MR IRVING: Not a very helpful interruption. 448, I am sorry
9still stay on paragraph 4.4.1.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] You refer there to the Leuchter report?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Towards the end of it you say you the report was not
14accepted by the court. Are you aware that under Canadian
15rules of evidence engineering reports like that are
16accepted only if both parties agree in advance, so it had
17nothing to do with the quality of the report?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think this witness can possibly
19answer that.
20 MR IRVING: No, my Lord. He has stated broadly it was not
21accepted --
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it was not ever put in evidence in the
23Canadian proceedings.
24 MR IRVING: My Lord, I will make submissions when the time
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right, but not through this witness,
1I think.
2 MR IRVING: 4.4.8, that was just little bit of advertising that
3I will be making submissions when the time comes on that,
4my Lord.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
6 MR IRVING: Paragraph 4.4.8, you are refer to a body called
7GdNF, not for the first time.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] What is the GdNF? I had lost track of it by this time --
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The Kuhnen connection, we spoke at length yesterday about
12 Q. [Mr Irving] -- well, then I can ask this simple question as it has
13involved Mr Kuhnen, is there any evidence in any of my
14diaries or private correspondence to which you had
15complete access of my knowledge of a body called GdNF?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, you have been blank interaction with Christian
17Worch. He is one of main activists.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] That is not my question, my question was is there any
19reference whatsoever to GdNF, which frankly I have seen
20for first --
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is my shortening, GdNF. It is the shortening of the
22OPC. In Germany you may call different.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have not realized it is the
25 MR IRVING: The way he put it in his acronym I assumed it was
26something like NATO, which is not a figment of
1imagination, this is a figment of the witness's
2imagination and need to be recognised as such, in the
3transcript in my view.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- it is the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. We talked about that
5and we know what the body of it --
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, we know about that.
7 MR IRVING: Paragraph 5.1.4, back to our friend Mr Althans.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- 5.1.4, yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] You rightly say that in my diary I refer to him as being a
10bit of a Nazi, that is at first blush, having just first
11met him, right?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. So at least one of the first meetings right, a bit
13of Nazi but helpful.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] A bit of Nazi but helpful. I do not want to ride too much
15on that paragraph. Would you imply that if you read that
16I regard being a bit of a Nazi as being a negative factor
17rather than a positive factor?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Here you write as if it is a bit of a negative factor.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] In my private diary?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But on the same token, in the same sentence you say: He is
21though helpful.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. You are weighing one then against other the other
23rather like Schroder, Hitler's private secretary, she was
24probably a bit of a Nazi , but she was very helpful,
25too ----
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You say a bit later again something like that, "in
1November '89 he was still a bit of a Nazi. He is a very
2useful young man, 23 but looks older and tougher".
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Or you refer to him in November driving to Strasbourg with
5Althans and his skinhead friend to attend Christopher's
6meeting in Hagenau.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] If I say I am driving to Strasbourg with somebody's
8skinhead friend does that imply that I am raising my
9eyebrows slightly or that I am jolly happy that this guy
10is a skinhead?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You met them. You shared their car. You went to Hagenau,
12to very hardcore revisionist, anti-Jewish meeting in
13Hagenau with this Zundel Juden pack statements. You were
14then -- you got a dinner. You were invited by this "bit
15of a Nazi but helpful Althans" to a dinner before the
16Wahrheit macht frei Congress with Philip Deckert --
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we take this in sequence, please.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- of course, again --
19 Q. [Mr Irving] This was the skinhead, so he was there, he is still
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you say from your knowledge of my private diaries that
23my original impression of Althans, this man who has been
24to Israel, my impression was very favourable --
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You did not say that he has connections at that time in
26your diary. I read it yesterday night. You said it at the
1end, in '97 or so, so this is why it came to surprise to
2me. I never have known about that, because he was from 14
3years old and on with Remer, you know, this very -- even
4you want -- did not want to be aligned with him, person.
5So it is a total surprise. I know this organization very
6good, and to be very personal I like this organization.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] -- the actual zunnerzeit?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, right.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you not seen the correspondence back in early 1990 or
10late 1989 where I received a letter from somebody who told
11me about Althans's visit to Israel?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The visit seems to my recollection, but not to
13zunnerseiten, because that I would have --
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Registered?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Registered, because I know this organization. It is a
16Berlin based organization and that is why I know it.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] -- just the general overview of my diaries over the three
18years of this unfortunate association with Mr Althans, my
19initial impression of him were favourable because he was
20young and full of initiative?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] But I rapidly became disillusioned with him; is that
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Rapidly -- but you know in early 1990s, in 1991 it
25starts -- and even in '90 you were a bit disgusted by his
26hotheadedness, as you would put it.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] There were various reasons, but you agree finally my
2impressions of him were highly unfavourable and I warned
3everyone against him?
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: At what time are you suggesting that
5happened, Mr Irving?
6 MR IRVING: Over a period of three years, two years probably
7because by 1993 I was out. I had had no dealings with him
8for long time by then.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So your disillusionment started when?
10 MR IRVING: I am just about to put to this witness a number of
11diary entries on Althans which may help to flesh that out,
12very brief entries and I have to put them to you in the
13form of putting them to you and I will show them to if you
14wish and you may well have them in front of you. On
15September 30th 1989, two lines, "Althans phoned the hotel"
16that is in Berlin "he said he would phone again" --
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] '89 you say?
18 Q. [Mr Irving] -- yes. I stayed in for this, but he did not call back
19poor manners, poor manners?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is not your best point, Mr Irving.
21 MR IRVING: November 6th.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Move on to the next one.
23 MR IRVING: November 6th 1989, I learn that he spent ten days
24in jail for a technical offence involving the president
25von Weisecker (?); do you have that entry?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Then on November 18th 1989, I note he makes a very good
2impression, be is businesslike and ambitious, keen and
3organized --
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] -- he has learned a lot already. He appears to be coming
6up to speed.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean he even spoke instead of you, taking your notice in
8a given moment. So it was quite close, although his
9manner, as you would put it, are lacking some of the
10Prussian, you know, style of organizations.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] February 5th 1990, I am sorry, February 3rd 1990, I
12express annoyance that Althans has made no attempt to
13contact me in two and a half months, and I add that was
14very unprofessional?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it went like it. You see it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I think this is important, because his Lordship is
17interested in the closeness of the contact. If I note on
18February 3rd 1990, I expressed annoyance that Althans and
19made no attempt to contact me in two and a half months,
20that is very unprofessional. He is supposed to be setting
21up things in Dresden and so on?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But, again, he made this furious event in Dresden at the
2313th February '90, and.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] --- did he --
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You describe it. So I would just, if I may, I would just
26say it is a back and forth. It is in waves, right, but
1very intense at that time.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] -- why do you say --
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Because of the Zundel connections he had and the
4Philipp -- and all the bunch of people you referred at
5that time.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] -- why do you describe the event in Dresden as being
7curious --
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not say "curious", furious. It was a furious
9success for you in your own perception.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Furious?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Great, big, big success.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] -- on the diary of January 28th 1990 shows he organized it
13with the "cultur director", the cultur manager of the city
14of Dresden, did he not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Which is what I would expect a young man do for me, to act
17as my kind of manager and go out and organize these
18meetings, and he was organizing meetings with the
19municipal authority of Dresden. But he is not dealing
20with skinhead organizations, or extreme right-wing groups,
21he is dealing with the proper authorities?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He did it both.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] But eventually we fell out, did we not, for a whole number
24of reasons?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Reasons for honesty and so on, I do not want to go into
1the details?
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but when?
3 MR IRVING: I would have to look at the diaries and see. Let
4me read on.
5 MR RAMPTON: According to the diary entries we have here,
6certainly not until towards the end of 1994.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is my impression.
8 MR IRVING: 1991, in March 23rd 1991, do you have that entry?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] This again shows that Althans lied to us. He dos not care
11if we get arrested. This was the famous Leuchter
12congress. He had made arrangements. He lied us to us
13about what we were permitted to do under the law. What
14arrangements he made with the police. He was negotiating
15the whole time with the police, was he not, in Germany?
16The whole time? He was doing things in a legal way?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But, again, see the context.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] I beg your pardon?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] See the context. I mean this was quite an event of
20hardcore revisionists, including some of the worst we have
21in Europe, Peter Varela.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Mr ----
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Mr Ahmed Remer.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] --- Althans had rented the Deutsches Museum. Is that a
25very prestigious building in Munich?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, and the problems became not because he has rented as
1a person for scientific Congress, but because of the scope
2and of the content of this so-called Leuchter, Fred
3Leuchter Congress.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So the authorities said this cannot be, it is not in line
6with the law that forbids Holocaust denier to state, to
7stage as was done.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] How did the authorities know what was going to be said?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Did they decide in advance to ban meetings because they
11are frightened that people may come out with politically
12incorrect views or what?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think the Munich authorities at that time knew a lot
14because of the experience of the year before.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] But you agree that Althans was trying to do things in a
16responsible way? He had rented one of the most
17prestigious lecture theatres in Munich. He organised
18speakers to come along. The lecture theatre then violated
19the contract, is that correct, forcing the meeting to be
20held outside in the open air on the steps with the
21permission of the police, is that a correct summary?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. I do not see -- no, I would disagree with
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Which part do you disagree with? I cannot allow you to
25disagree without asking you why.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The whole perception of this scenery you described in your
1sentences, I cannot go with it. I know that, according to
2your diary, he, Althans, was not careful enough to
3circumvent this kind of interaction with the police and
4then this ban to speak there and the decision of the
5Museum to speak there because they knew what will come.
6So, if I may say, if I would have, if I would have done it
7I would have been in the same problems, technical
8problems, Althans went into because of the content of it.
9Believe me, it is not, it is a technical problem that he
10cannot do it. It is not, the real problem is that the
11whole Leuchter Congress was so disgusting and so against
12the law we had and we have that it could not work by any
14 Q. [Mr Irving] These are the laws for suppression of free speech in
15Germany, is that correct? It is not against any kind of
16regular laws as accepted, for example, in the United
17States or in England?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think when you asked almost
19exactly the same question about 45 minutes ago, I said
20I do not think that helps, so it is not going to help now.
21 MR IRVING: Let me try to explain what I am trying to get at.
22If Mr Althans tries to do things the proper way, he rents
23the most prestigious lecture theatre, he organizes
24speakers like myself to come and speak on Churchill and
25Pearl Harbour, that was my topic, was it not? Was that my
26topic that day?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far you said it and according to the video.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] And does the correspondence not also show that that is my
3topic that day, my prearranged topic?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The topic of the Congress was the hardcore Holocaust
5denials meeting in Munich and to changing, as Althans put
6it, very politically in his views, in his views, "We will
7stop with kind of defence revisionism. Now it is time to
8umdenken, to think anew" ----
9 THE INTERPRETER: To rethink?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- "to rethink for the revolution", so this is something.
11 MR IRVING: But now?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Again I have just to remind you and with, if I may, your
13Lordship, just two sentences about the again and again
14posed question. It is not just a freedom of expression,
15but you have the constitution.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Funke, I totally understand what
17Mr Irving is suggesting and what your response is on that,
18so I think we must move on because this is getting ----
19 MR IRVING: The position I am trying to get the witness to
20understand, and your Lordship has not yet received this
21and it will now come. In view of the fact that the
22contract was violated, we were, therefore, the organizers
23were forced in conformity with the police to move the
24meeting to the outside which is a more extreme position,
25is it not? They are no longer meeting in the comfort of a
26lecture theatre but they are out on the street?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Under police protection. So sometimes the extremism is
3forced upon them, if I can put it like that?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If you go out, you are extreme?
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, standing on the back of a truck holding a microphone
6in your hand looks more extreme than standing in a podium
7in a lecture theatre, is that right?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Again I would refer to the content. It is not the
9appearance as such, the content, the content of the
10speeches, the content of the reasons to invite a
11demonstration like in Halle. The content matters.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] I am moving on. March 25th 1991. "Then to a new press
13conference by Althans (who was missing)"?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Wait. Where are we at?
15 Q. [Mr Irving] March 25th 1991, the diary?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Ah, OK.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] This is substantially before 1994, is it not?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] "New press conference organised by Althans (who was
20missing). Further shambles". Then two days later, no,
21yes, one day later, March 26th: "Althans told the press
22I was at the April 21st 1990 march (untrue)". Have you
23noticed that and why did you not refer to that?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to go to the letter itself, right?
25 Q. [Mr Irving] No, it is the diary. March 26th 1991.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do not think we need to look at the
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Where do I get...
3 MR IRVING: The diary, March 26th 1991. Do you have extracts
4from the diary there, my diary?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] You do not?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But maybe you just quote it.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Just the first line, that is March 26th 1991.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] "The text from BFP, want me to speak May 10th, DVU,
10Althans told press I was at 21st April march (untrue)".
11 Q. [Mr Irving] That is this demonstration, the illegal demonstration?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] I put in my diary that Althans is telling the press that
14I was on it and this is untrue.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You say? Yes, you say.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Why would I lie to my own diary?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] April 14th 1992, which is two years before 1994, "I am
18getting fed up with Althans. It is impossible to make
19dates". April 29th 1992, "Faxes from Althans".
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am getting really puzzled by this,
21Mr Irving. You have just referred to an entry ----
22 MR IRVING: Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- where you said it was untrue that you had
24been at a meeting on 21st April.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] On the march after.
26 MR IRVING: On the march?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Afterwards, you know.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: On the march, I see.
3 MR IRVING: On this march afterwards, yes, the famous march to
4the Vertherren Halle?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] One of the things.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I follow. I am sorry. I did not
7realise it was the march, not the meeting.
8 MR IRVING: Precisely, my Lord. In my private diary I make
9quite plain that this is untrue and these diaries, of
10course, have been available to the Defence and yet they
11are still persisting in their contention that I was on it.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. If I may say so, Mr Irving, I have got
13the diary entries. Of course, if there is some missing
14diary entry that you want to rely on, put it to Professor
15Funke, but I do not really find it very helpful just going
16through odd entries. Could you not put your case in
17relation to Althans more broadly? I mean, it may be you
18have put it effectively already.
19 MR IRVING: I did put it broadly, my Lord. Althans is one of
20the major figures, in my view.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know.
22 MR IRVING: And I have three more one line episodes to put to
23this witness which again emphasise the fact that relations
24had broken down very early on.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Remember it is the wood that I need
26to look at rather than the trees. I mean, that is the
1point really. I can see the correspondence goes on
2between you until 1993 into 1994. So odd entries are not
3necessarily going to help enormously -- '95.
4 MR IRVING: If your Lordship has seen the odd entries, my Lord,
5and one example of the entries you have noticed is the one
6about the demonstration.
7 MR RAMPTON: It is right to point out (and everybody should be
8aware of it) that these, I do not know quite what, the
9abstracts at the front of each section in the RWE files
10are not, I think I have said it before, exhaustive. That
11can cut both ways.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I appreciate they are a selection, yes.
13 MR RAMPTON: They are a selection. There is a huge amount of
14material on the cutting room floors, as Miss Rogers puts
16 MR IRVING: And they are not agreed bundles either, my Lord, in
17this respect.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I agree. I have just said, I take
19Mr Rampton's point, that you are perfectly at liberty to
20say that you have left out a particular entry is
21significant for one reason or another, but I have the
22picture from the selected extracts and all I am asking you
23to do is to ----
24 MR IRVING: Speed things up.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- help on the overall association rather
26than go through individual diary entries.
1 MR IRVING: We have one more specific episode here, April 29th
21992, there is a fax from Althans, and I say ----
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] April 19th?
4 Q. [Mr Irving] '92?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, 19th.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] April 29th 1992.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] "Fax from Althans with an horrendously tasteless
9invitation to my Tuesday press conference"?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Then on May 4th, from the diary again, 1992 ----
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] "The Manager of the Bahlscheroff has cancelled the booking
14because of Althans' horrendous invitation leaflet"?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] So to turn to my original question which his Lordship
17wishes me to ask you, it is clear that relations with
18Althans were brittle?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I would say yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But intense.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] So although you quite rightly say there were contacts
23between myself and Althans, and his Lordship has seen an
24ongoing correspondence ----
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But very intense.
26 MR RAMPTON: The witness was cut off he said intense, brittle
1but intense, is that right.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
3 MR IRVING: Well, in the sense that our relations with Adolf
4Hitler during World War II were brittle but intense, is
5that correct?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This comparison does not hold.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, do not dealt with it at length because I
8do not think it helps either.
9 MR IRVING: Paragraph ----
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Because may I add that I not caught into a wrong
11perception of my answer, it was intense co-operation based
12on the interaction with Zundel and others, and also, as
13I said, the Kuhnen connection, with which Althans has also
14very intense relationships at that time. So they often
15came twice, like both of these groups or persons, to the
16same meetings where you attended. So I see this
17collection of references that show that you have problems
18with him more on a tactical basis, you know. You said he
19is unprofessional, he did wrong invitations. So...
20 MR IRVING: Horrendous?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Or he messed the things up. So, with respect to your
22efficiency to put your things down to the German audience,
23yes, he was not efficient, but because of the contents you
24shared it was at the beginning and in the coming year, you
25know, at the beginning, a very helpful and very intense
26relationship and co-operation.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Until one learns more about the man and then you tend to
2break away from someone, would that be possible?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. In paragraph 5.1.5, you mentioned once again there
5incidentally, Professor Funke, the name of "Kuhnen". You
6do accept that I have never met Kuhnen, never had a single
7word exchanged with him and never written to him?
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has already accepted that.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to even question this because I do not know, but
10there are hints that, for example, but, you know -- your
11Lordship, am I allowed just to do ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We dealt with this yesterday.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have the impression that you accept you
15have got no evidence that Mr Irving has met Kuhnen or
16corresponded with Kuhnen?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They were at the same march. That is not getting
18slippery. He was on the same march, maybe only two or 20
19minutes, you know, you do not know ----
20 MR IRVING: Which march was this?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- he was in the same meeting of the march to the
22Vertherren Halle, the famous, the second famous, as you
23say, and he was, so far the records are there, he was --
24Kuhnen was at the 3rd March '90. But as long as we do
25not -- it is, you know, these groups are conspiracy.
26 MR IRVING: Conspiratorial.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Conspiratorial. These groups, the Kuhnen connection, one
2of their main points is to act conspiratorially. So they
3use you as a kind of the most political outsider, as
4Christian Worch told it in the letter in June '90, so
5there was a special interaction. So this conspiratorial
6things, you even are not in their perception allowed to
7talk about this event, what really happened at 3rd
8March '90. So you even from their perspective had to
9sanitize your diary. There is nothing about the whole
10event at 3rd March of '90, and the lie. So there is,
11I just have to say it, I have just to say that there are
12sources that said Kuhnen, Worch and Mr Irving were there,
13but, you know, as long as we have not the ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving] We are going to look at the sources later.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- definitive proof, I have to be cautious at that.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, he is not on the list.
17 MR IRVING: Kuhnen?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not know.
20 MR IRVING: Is Kuhnen not ----
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He was on the list.
22 MR IRVING: He was on the list yesterday, I believe.
23 MR RAMPTON: That is a mistake. I mean, I will have in the end
24to be guided by the evidence of the witness. If the
25witness, under pressure from Mr Irving, refuses to concede
26that the link between Althans and Kuhnen is illusory,
1well, then he has to go on the list.
2 MR IRVING: It is the link between me and Kuhnen that we are
3interested in.
4 MR RAMPTON: I do not find that very difficult either, I have
5to say.
6 MR IRVING: My Lord, on a point of law, I would like to be
7reminded of here, if a grave allegation is made in libel,
8do we have to expect an enhanced degree of proof and it is
9not just the balance of probabilities.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not quite sure why you raise that point
11now, but the answer is yes.
12 MR IRVING: I just wanted to remind myself, in other words,
13what I can now be confident your Lordship is paying
14attention to.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: At the moment it seems to me that the link
16with Kuhnen is extremely tenuous and if there are not
17better fish to fry, if I can put it that way, then I am
18not impressed. I really think we must move on.
19 MR IRVING: Paragraph 5.15, we have Remer who is one of the
20people on the list. Will you accept just in two lines or
21one line that this July 22nd meeting with General Remer on
22the evidence which has been before the court, do you have
23it, Professor Funke? It is on page 53.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] At this meeting with Remer at Flotto was a conversation
26with him for the purpose of interviewing him for my
1Goebbels biography.
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, it seems so, yes, and you did attend later on as
3I see.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, and although we have seen evidence that he may have
5been in the audience of some meetings I addressed, there
6is no other evidence of contact between us?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I see, yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 5.1.5, when I in line 2 of that describe
9somebody as being a bit of a right-wing friend of someone,
10a rather right-wing friend, does that ----
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Where is it?
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Line 2 of paragraph 5.1.5.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] If I described somebody as being a rather right-wing
15friend of somebody, does that tell you something about my
16attitude to right-wingers?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] It does not? Does it not imply that I hold right-wingers
19at arm's length slightly?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No. There are other statements that you describe yourself
21as a right-winger, but we come to that later.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] 5.1.6, this demonstration, this little
23demonstration, which organize rather wickedly outside the
24German Sender Freies Berlin ----
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] --- television station, of which we have seen the
1photograph, Pedro Varela was there, was he not?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. This is photograph, yes, then he was
4 Q. [Mr Irving] He was next to me holding a placard calling German
5historians liars and cowards?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, right, yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] How do you know that it was because of the repugnance of
8my views that the historians refused to debate with me,
9Jaeckel and the other historians who have been invited on
10to this panel?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I know it is because of your radicalization of your
12revisionist viewpoints since you endorse the so-called
13Fred Leuchter report.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Like the Second Defendant in this case, all these
15historians refuse to debate with people who have different
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, say it again.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] These historians refuse to debate with people who hold
19different opinions to themselves?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, not at all, not at all. They are very informed and
21debatable, debating scholars, like Jaeckel, for example.
22I know him very well.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] There is a footnote on the previous page 53, 158, you
24refer to a letter that I say that I am brushing up my
25Holocaust vocabulary?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is on?
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 53, because I am about to go to Spain, am I not, and
2go on a lecture tour organized by Mr Varela? This is
3footnote 158.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] In the meantime, I will freshen up my Holocaust
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] If you were going to make a lecture tour in Spain, in
9Spanish, would you also want to know how to translate
10words ----
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] --- and you would make sure you have the correct words?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Of course.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] That is what that refers to, in other words?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] There was nothing sinister about it. Paragraph 5.1.7,
17this is still about the Berlin demonstration, and I say
18that some of the people who are turning up on our behalf
19are some quite rough in my private diary, is it not?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] What was the political situation in Berlin at that time?
22Was there a violent left-wing scene? I mean, the
23anarchists, were they an extremely violent gang of thugs
24who went around brutalising people?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That period of time I was in Berkeley, California.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, Berkeley was much the same, was it not?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not, at that point of history.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] It was when I spoke there.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] But in Berlin?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So I do not feel, you know, endangered by this.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] I am sure you do not, but, well ----
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] As a normal person ----
8 Q. [Mr Irving] What is the word ----
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- and also my friend.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] What does the word "Chaoten" mean to you? It is
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Chaoten? You want a good translation?
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I just want to know what image does it conjure up?
14It is frequently used by the press, is it not, to describe
15people to breaking up demonstrations?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. They bring up demonstrations and doing it too often,
17this is a kind of subtext of it.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] So if you were organizing any kind of demonstration, even
19on the smallest scale in Berlin, you would want to go
20along and make sure that you were not going to be beaten
21to a pulp, you would have people there who were able to
22protect your suit or whatever?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you have lost me completely.
24I just do not know what point you are seeking to make.
25 MR IRVING: The witness has referred to the fact that,
26obviously, I made a note in my diary that some of the
1people who were coming along to our demonstration that
2night were rough necks, some quite rough, I think are the
3words, and I am just pointing out there was obviously a
4reason why we were glad to have one or two people with
5shoulder muscles there.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Was there a kind of violent interaction?
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, Professor Funke ----
8 MR IRVING: We have moved on.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- don't let us spend time.
10 MR IRVING: Paragraph 5.1.8, please? "Irving told
11journalists", towards the end of that paragraph, "'The
12result of this report is final. There was no mass murder
13with poison gas'"?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you accept that this was not a verbatim transcript of
16that particular press conference
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was not a what?
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Verbatim transcript, it is not a worlaut protokol?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There was no mass murder with poison gas. "Es gab keine
20Massentotung durch Giftgas".
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but you accept that this is not necessarily a
22verbatim protocol of my actual words as spoken at that
23press conference
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, it is a summary, it seems to.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] A summary?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And it shows by the way, if I may say, how link you with
1Karl Philipp and to the radical revisionist cause.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Do you agree that my position at this trial has
3always been that at Auschwitz there was no mass murder,
4and I emphasise the word "mass" with poison gas?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I know that you endorse the Fred Leuchter report and this
6is at the basic of the difficulty for the German, for the
7German authorities, because it hurts the people who
8survived the Holocaust at the very place.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, 5.1.10 -- I am sorry.
10 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry. One skips as usual, one has leapt
11over the difficult bit without booking beneath one's feet
12as one has gone. At the top of page 55 there is some
13dialogue between Mr Irving and a journalist which has been
14translated into English, fortunately. I draw attention to
15Mr Irving's last answer and the last sentence of that last
16answer and to the plural which he uses.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you want to ask a question about that,
18Mr Irving?
19 MR IRVING: I have already asked the question which is does the
20witness accept this was not a verbatim transcript, my
21Lord, and that being so ----
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is verbatim now.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Please, Professor Funke, that really is not
24an answer, is it? Either you are correctly quoted or you
25are incorrectly quoted. What you are quoted as having
26said is that "It is the defamation of the German people if
1one talks of extermination camps or death camps". Now,
2you either said that or you did not. If your case is that
3you did not say it, I think you ought to put it.
4 MR IRVING: I will put it another way round. Professor Funke,
5was this press conference held in English or in German, in
6your opinion?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Normally, these press conferences to get a better audience
8are held in German.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] So this is a translation by somebody into English, and we
10have no way really of knowing exactly what words I used.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But I can ----
12 MR RAMPTON: The German is quoted in footnote 175.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right. It is stated there.
14 MR RAMPTON: It is in the plural -- even I know that -- in
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I just want to quote it now.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is no need because I have read it out
18in English and Mr Irving is suggesting it is a
19mistranslation, he can say so. Mr Irving, are you
20suggesting there is a mistranslation there?
21 MR IRVING: There clearly is. "Todesfabriken" is not "death
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it is "death factories".
24 MR IRVING: "Factories of death" which is precisely the
25position I have adopted.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the difference?
1 MR RAMPTON: Plural or singular?
2 MR IRVING: My Lord, this is crematorium No. (ii) and we have
3gone over that in some detail already.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Now, come on, let us get to grips with this.
5Are you saying that you have either been misquoted or that
6what you said has been mistranslated in a significant way
7beyond what you have just pointed out, Mr Irving? I think
8you must come clean and put your case on this.
9 MR IRVING: I think it is a misquotation. I am not prepared to
10accept this is a genuine quotation of what I said. It
11partially represents my position. The "Todesfabriken" is
12correct. "Vernichtungslagern" is not correct. If the
13Defence wishes to produce a verbatim transcript of that
14press conference, then it is up to them to do so.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is an invitation that might be
16taken up because it, presumably, does exist, there must be
17a transcript.
18 MR IRVING: Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you help about that, Professor Funke? Do
20you know what you are quoting from derives?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. Just a second. The middle of page 52, just a second
22it is from Code. This is a right-wing extremist magazine
23that quotes this interaction. It is either Franker
24Griesch or Karl Philipp, maybe, so one of, just to have a
25look at it a minute, if you allow, your Lordship? Yes, it
26is a publishing of the press conference content by Code,
1C-O-D-E, and this again is done by Karl Philipp. So he
2may be responsible for this kind of translation, what
3shows that he goes very -- he is a close co-operative
4person to Irving, knows or was also there at the press
5conference in London and he was there in the press
6conference in Berlin. So, the sense, the gist of it,
7I think he knows very well and, if I may say again, the
8translation of this German sentence is ----
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry about the translation. It was
10really a simple question by me where it came from.
11 MR RAMPTON: I have the source here. We will provide, I think
12it only right, if your Lordship agrees, the article from
13which it is taken.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: By Karl Philipp?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Bundle No.?
16 MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is bundle No. 5.1(i), H5.(i)?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And then (i).
18 MR RAMPTON: Yes, (i).
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: May I suggest we leave this to re-examination
20when copies are available for everybody because they will
21not be at the moment, unless you think that is an
22undesirable course?
23 MR RAMPTON: They are.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, if they are, have you got H5.(i)?
25 MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is page 324 stamped at the bottom. In my
26file it is after a blue tab.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right, I see.
2 MR IRVING: I will ask the witness further questions on this
3passage, obviously.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Just a second.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right.
6 MR RAMPTON: I can tell your Lordship that the words in
7question, well, one of the words in question, one of the
8groups, [German - document not provided] is in the second
9column at the top, at the end of the first block of
10Irving, and the exchange between Irving and the journalist
11where Irving says that there were no Vernichtungslagern or
12Todesfabriken is in the second column. It is the second
13Irving quote, the first half of that second Irving quote,
14the question having been, whatever it was [German -
15document not provided].
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So it is clearly related to Todesfabriken, and that means
17death fabrics or death camps, death factories, and this is
18cannot be only the Auschwitz camp or the crematorium (ii)
19or whatever you are referring just a minute ago, it is a
20very general statement that you deny the essence of
22 MR IRVING: Let me ask you two or three questions about that
23passage at the top of page 55. As Mr Rampton is
24obviously ----
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] --- hanging his coat on it.
1 MR RAMPTON: One of my many coats.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Ask the question, leave aside Mr Rampton.
3 MR IRVING: Is the entire exchange, the five-line exchange:
4"Journalist Irving, journalist Irving" concerning
5Auschwitz, are his two questions about Auschwitz and am I
6replying to two questions about Auschwitz?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The sentences before, yes. But the last sentence is a
8general observation. The last sentence, I quote it
9again: "Es ist eine Verleumdung des deutschen Volkes,
10wenn man von Vernichtungslagern und Todesfabriken
11spricht". This is clearly a general statement on the
12essence of the Holocaust you are denying towards the
13German public.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] "In bezug auf Auschwitz" - with regard to Auschwitz. That
15is what was his question was about, is that correct?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The question was, so I quote it again, first in German,
17"(Journalist) Warum heisst Auschwitz denn
18Vernichtungslager? (Irving) Nicht bei mir. Nur bei Ihnen
19und bei den deutschen Historikern. Und dann" ---- then
20there is the sentence I quoted before, it is -- it is
21there stated so I want to take this. It is a defamation
22of the German people, if one talks of extermination camps
23or death camps. So it is clearly a general statement.
24You know, you began by answering a question to Auschwitz,
25and then you extended it to the whole Holocaust, or
26however you say, this bit about the murdering of nearly 6
1million people Jews.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Is the sense of my final answer there that it is a
3defamation of the German people if one talks of
4extermination camps or death camps not, in fact, the
5following: "Is it the defamation of German people when you
6ask why Auschwitz is called an extermination camp, if you
7talk about extermination camps or death camps"? Do you
8understand what I am saying?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not want you to, because you have
11interpolated some words that are not there.
12 MR IRVING: I am interpolating his question to which I am
13responding, my Lord, to make it quite plain that this is
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: For my part, I think this debate has gone on
16long enough. I have the words that you have recorded as
17having said and I hear what you put and I hear what the
18witness answers.
19 MR IRVING: The words that I am quoted as having said rather
20than recorded as having said is the first point I make.
21The second point is I would say, what the correction
22translation for "Todesfabriken"?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think that "death camps" is the more used translation,
24but the sense of it is the general observation that you
25denied the Holocaust, that is to say, the killing of 5 to
266 million Jewish people.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] You are aware, of course, that I have always said that
2there is no evidence that Auschwitz was purpose designed
3as a Vernichtungslager or a factory of death. Are you
4aware of that point?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think you waived on that before 1989 and since 1989, you
6were very firm on that line.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] This is since 1989; this is late 1989, is that correct?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] So, if this has always been my position, then this is
10clearly all that I am saying in that paragraph. Do not
11come to me with talk about extermination camps and death
12camps, Auschwitz and so on.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But you have criticise then Karl Philipp.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] I beg your pardon?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Then you have to criticise Karl Philipp and you did not do
17 Q. [Mr Irving] No, I am criticising the person first of all who
18translated "Todesfabriken" as death camps.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And you did not do so.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] I am just criticising him now. I am also criticising the
21person who is not capable of seeing that this a response
22directly to the previous question.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So ----
24 Q. [Mr Irving] I am not going to take it any further.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So, again I have to state ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, we were passing on now, Professor Funke.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK.
2 MR IRVING: You refer in your footnote 172, to the point that
3has already been raised, but here you make it more
4clearly, you say here that "Wahrheit macht Frei" is a
5tasteless pun, a "Wortspiel", on the inscription set over
6the gates at Auschwitz "Arbeit macht Frei". Is it not the
7other way round?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me, where is it?
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Footnote 172.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, excuse me.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not the other way round that the quotation from the
12scriptures, no doubt, comes 2,000 years before the SS so
13that the SS with the inscription over the gates with the
14tasteless pun ----?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, we had this precise point
16yesterday, and you say that there is no connection between
17"Arbeit macht Frei" and what one sees at this meeting.
18 MR IRVING: My Lord, here he is making the point in his
19footnote which he did not make yesterday. Your
20Lordship made the connection, but he did not.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not make the connection; I observed
22that you deny that there is one.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If I recall, the last speech of Raymund Bachman, in the
24second Leuchter Congress in 30, 23rd March 1991, before
25the Museum, he raised his voice and even shouted that we
26should not be suppressed by the police agencies and so
1forth, and that freedom of expression should not be
2suppressed. What he meant was the ideas of these
3Holocaust deniers to be spread out and to say these denial
4things. Then he shouted to the public, and I would invite
5to see this, the Bachman, the Austrian speaker:
6"Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz", and the whole people
7reacted to that. So, the more I realise what these
8congresses are about, the more there is an allusion of
9"Arbeit macht Frei", in the sense that this was a cynical
10description of destruction by work and this "Wahrheit
11macht Frei", the more I think about it, the more it is
12related to each other.
13 MR IRVING: My Lord, I have to say that I have no recollection
14of having seen that man shout "Auschwitz" three times on
15the video and I do not know if your Lordship saw it?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think the point is whether "Arbeit
17macht Frei" is or is not connected with "Wahrheit macht
18Frei". I really do not think we can debate this any
20 MR RAMPTON: No, we cannot, but we may as well if we throw it
21away with some ease because, in Mr Irving's diary for
22October 3rd 1989 when he was in West Berlin, he writes
23this: "At 11 am, a well attended press conference at the
24Kampinski (which I believe is some kind of hotel), around
2520 writers, six or seven genuine journalists told them
26(I will read it but I do not know what it means): Zeit:
111 Uhr heute Morgen wird zuruckgeschossen, and closed with
2my new slogan Wahrheit macht Frei. The lefty journalists
3got the allusions".
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you. Mr Irving, you are in person
5and I appreciate the difficulties and you, again, have
6been confronted with an extremely long and detailed
7report, but, in the end, I think it is important to
8remember ----
9 MR IRVING: It is the names.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- what it is that this witness is telling
11me that really matters. He has identified a number of
12individuals who he says are right-wing extremist with whom
13he says you have close associations or associations
14anyway. That is what I am going to get from this witness,
15if I get anything, and----
16 MR IRVING: We will come to them.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- we are darting around looking at the odd
18footnote here and there and, as I have said so many times
19before, it is really the big picture that you must tackle,
20not whether particular footnotes are accurate or not. So
21can you please bear that in mind because I just do not
22think that we are making progress at all.
23 MR IRVING: It is just that I can feel the sharks over there.
24They will leap on anything that I have not traversed.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Try to ignore them and concentrate on asking
26the questions which I want to hear the answers to.
1 MR IRVING: In late 1989, Dr Funke, I conducted a tour of
2Austria, did I not?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Did I arrange the tour or was it arranged by somebody
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was arranged by Althans and Philipp and maybe some
7others, but these both ----
8 Q. [Mr Irving] These are two of the people on the list, are they not,
9Althans and Philipp? Can I ask you to look at document 14
10in the little bundle that I gave you this morning?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is too packed here, excuse me.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] There is no need to read it out, just read it to yourself
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] And then I will ask you two questions on it. (Pause for
16reading.) "I am writing to the head of the security
17police in Korinthier which is a province of Austria", is
18that right?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] "In anticipation of the tour and I am asking him to
21effectively give me guidelines so that I can stay within
22the law"?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this a responsible thing to do?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Does it indicate any extremist intentions on my part or on
1the part of the organisers?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The letter alludes to your topics. I quote: [German -
3document not provided].
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Do you have any comments on that?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe I should translate it or maybe you can translate it
6for me?
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would not, Professor Funke, if I were you,
8spend very long on it. You have been asked whether you
9regard that as a responsible letter?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And it is ----
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I do not.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] All right, you do not.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not because of that sentence.
15 MR IRVING: It is considered an irresponsible letter?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not think it is going to be productive, my Lord, to
18ask questions on this, unless your Lordship wishes to?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not really. I did try to give you a
20steer a moment ago to what I think is helpful.
21 MR IRVING: Yes, exactly. That is precisely how I am moving on
22not because I do not want to ask further questions. You
23referred in paragraph 5.1.11, and this very briefly, to a
24visit which I made to a man called Walter Storff who is an
25old Nazi SS friend of someone, right?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you accept that if you write books about Nazis, you
2have to visit them sometimes?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] In 5.1.12, we come to Mr Christopherson who is one of the
5people on the list. Is there correspondence between me
6and Mr Christopherson that you have read?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To a degree.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Did I ever write back to him approving of the book that he
9sent me?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I recall, no.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] No. In 5.1.13, there is reference to a magazine that he
12published called Bauenschaft. Have you seen in all the
13papers, or my diary, or the files of correspondences which
14have been made available to you any indication that
15I ordered it, or read it, or acknowledged it or thanked
16him for it?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot recall -- I have to go through these letters to
18be sure that you did not.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, let me phrase it another way. Can you recall having
20seen any such letters indicating that I ----
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There were, there were a lot of quests of Christopherson
22to come to his meetings and you sometimes said no, and
23sometimes you attended like the Hagenau meeting, in so far
24as it is also prepared by Christopherson. So this is what
25I recall.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] To give his Lordship an indication of the intensity, to
1use that word, my relations with Mr Christopherson, how
2many meetings, in your opinion, did Christopherson
3organise that I spoke at?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Only a few.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] One?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Only a few.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you think of any more apart from Hagenau?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to look at the Christopherson file for a minute.
9 MR RAMPTON: Tab 15, my Lord.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I am looking at it.
11 (Pause for reading).
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think there are any other meetings
13that are referred to.
14 MR RAMPTON: There is possibly one between 12th and 17th
15September, actually.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] September of what year?
17 MR RAMPTON: 1989, sorry. We do not have the recording in the
18diary of what took place.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I see what you mean.
20 MR RAMPTON: Die Bauenschaft's annual meeting.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK.
22 MR IRVING: Moving on from Mr Christopherson, in 5.3.8, is
23Dieter Munier one of the names on the list? I am not
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] A publisher Arndt Verlag. Is he a publisher?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Has he published books of mine?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Is one of the books a history of the Vorschungsamt, the
5German intelligence code-breaking organisation?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That may be, I am not aware, but you published it with the
7Arndt publisher.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] With Arndt Verlag, yes. Are you aware that this book was
9highly praised by Professor Watt in the witness box where
10you are now sitting?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think he is on the list.
12 MR IRVING: I beg your pardon?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not on the list.
14 MR IRVING: He is not on the list. Very well, in that case,
15let us move on. In paragraph 5.3.9, and to this I do
16attach importance, my Lord, the indented passage on page
1762, now the question is, if you read the indented passage,
18Christian Worch is complaining about what I put into my
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Is he complaining because I have rubbed the noses of these
22right-wing audiences in the atrocities committed by the
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To a degree.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] To a degree. I have read out to you the entire Bruns
26Report. Is that evident from that letter?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems to.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you think that was only occasion that I did this, or
3did I make a habit of doing that to every single
4right-wing audience I spoke to?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems that you not only did it in Hagenau, so far as
6I recall.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] There were frequent protests from these right-wingers,
8these extremists, of the fact I rubbed their noses in the
9crimes committed by the Nazis and the SS, and that this is
10documented in a way that we do not have to rely on a
11consensus of opinion, or the opinion of the social
12sciences. We have documents showing that I rubbed their
13noses in these crimes.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, especially from Christopherson, I may add.
15Christopherson said not to do this, do not refer.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, and did I carry on doing it?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is right.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] In paragraph 5.3.13, this is a meeting at which
19I addressed in Hamburg and then, I am sorry, paragraph
205.3.12. You are referring to a meeting that I addressed
21in Hamburg and then, in 5.3.13, you purport to put in what
22I said at that meeting. Is that transcript, in fact, from
23Hamburg or is it from another meeting?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Wait a minute. I think I did a mistake but I have to look
25at it more precisely.
26 MR RAMPTON: I think, in fact, it is the Moers meeting. It has
1somehow been transposed.
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I have to admit that ----
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is two months later, is it not?
4 MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is two months later, in fact.
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] By the way, the Moers meeting was not in your diary. It
6was stated sometime, it was on the 5th, but so far
7I reconstructed it was at the 9th March.
8 MR RAMPTON: It was the ninth Moers of ----
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of 9th March.
10 MR RAMPTON: --- 5.3.19. That is the one meeting of which we
11do have a full transcript.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I referred to that, your Lordship, at the beginning of my
13three remarks today in the morning.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
15 MR IRVING: You made references on these pages to the NL. That
16is the Nationale Liste, is that right?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Was that banned at that time?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] In 5.3.14 - I am going to come back to the Hamburg meeting
21in a second - you had me saying there: "We are always
22running the danger that we will be arrested..." This is
23Moers meeting from the transcript, is it not?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I am lost.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] 5.3.14?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 5.3.14?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it is.
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
3 MR IRVING: It all sounds rather conspiratorial, me telling an
4audience there that we are running the danger, that we are
5going to be arrested. Was the situation, at that time in
6Germany, really dangerous for dissident historians, that
7there was danger of being arrested because of what you
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is in early 1990, right? Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Are people still serving prison sentences in Germany today
11for things they said in 1990, to your knowledge, Gunther
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not for dissenting historians, but for hardcore denialists
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, the really wicked ones? Are you aware that the
16German government applied for my extradition last year
17because of something I said in September 1990?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, Mr Irving, I think we did at an earlier
19stage agree that what governments do or do not do is
20really not going to be helpful.
21 MR IRVING: I am proud to live in England and not in Germany,
22my Lord. 5.3.15.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I would like to comment on this.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No.
25 MR IRVING: This is an important one. 5.3.15, when you state
26that I arrived with Kuhnen, which is obviously an
1important point, the journalist Michael Schmidt, who is
2one of your favourite sources, says that Irving arrived
3with Michael Kuhnen at this meeting in Hamburg.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] You had before you my diary?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you check with the diary to see if there is any
8indication that I arrived with Michael Kuhnen?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No. No, of course not. That is why I am raising this
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, either it is worth checking if something is likely
12or not. Can I take you to pages 13 and 14 of the bundle,
13please, I am sorry page 13.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Of the bundle?
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] It is complicated and I am not going to read it all out.
18I want you to run your eye down it and I will ask you in
19advance the questions I am going to ask. Is it evident
20from at that my daughter Paloma was with me on this tour
21of Hamburg, tour of Germany, and that she was with me in
22the car and that she came with me to the function?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] And that I spoke later that evening at another function to
25university students?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And that you knew that Michael Kuhnen was
1going to be present.
2 MR IRVING: I beg your pardon?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And that you knew that Michael Kuhnen was
4going to be present.
5 MR IRVING: Did I say that I would not come if he was going to
6be present, that this has caused problems? This evoked
7consternation and I said I was not going to come. The
8question I am going to ask you is, is there any evidence
9from the diary entry that I had Michael Kuhnen in the car
10with me and would I not have mentioned it?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the car?
12 Q. [Mr Irving] In my car, yes.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not know.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] So you will accept, will you, that he was not with me and
15I did not arrive with him?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it is just the diary.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you accept once more that I have never met Michael
18Kuhnen knowingly in my life?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] As a responsible scientist I have to at least notify that
20there are other hints and eyewitnesses, so to speak, who
21say differently.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] You have one, Michael Schmidt, you are familiar source,
23Michael Schmidt?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, it is a very important source, because he is one of
25the few who is not in the right-wing camp, and could
26manage it for a time of some years to interact with them
1and even film it, and all the video material is from him.
2So of course it is an important source. It is a worldwide
3important source for this kind of camp.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] But contrasting, shall we say, the postwar memoirs of
5Michael Schmidt, this left-wing journalist on the one
6hand, and his recollection that he seemed to think that
7I arrive with Michael Kuhnen with my diary which shows
8clearly that I am with my daughter and there is no
9reference to Michael Kuhnen arriving with me at all, or
10even being with me, in fact there is no reason why he
11would have been because I came from a totally different
12part of Germany, you have to admit that, on balance of
13probabilities, it is unlikely?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot say yes or no to that. I read your diary. I was
15very cautious, but I have to mention that there are other,
16you know, eyewitnesses of that meeting.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] One?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Can I take you now to 5.3.16? We have moved on from
20Michael Kuhnen. One of your other sources, a Miss
21Benedict, is it, or Mrs Benedict?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Says that I received applause from the older members of
24the audiences, especially SS veterans. How on earth does
25she know they were SS veterans?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] She stated so.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this not indicative of the kind of things your sources
2are writing? Were they in uniform? Did they hold up
3party cards?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I quote this person and I do not know more.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you not critical about the sources you use when you
6write these reports?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh, yes I am very, and Benedict is one of the sources
8I met often, and she is one of those who knew the scene as
9intense and differentiated as, for example, Wagner. The
10problem is with these sources of course ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Is she one of your social scientists that you refer to?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me?
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Is she one of your social scientists you refer to as being
14a reliable source?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] I thought so.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is more out of an observational perspective, and she is
18one of the persons out of East Germany who knew the scene
19from before '89. So she knew the persons they interacted
20in the definitive phase between '85 and '90. So she is a
21very reasonable source.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 5.2 ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought we had got beyond that.
24 MR IRVING: We had got beyond that and I was just going to
25reassure myself once again, my Lord, this is headed "OPC
26Observations", that paragraph, it is on page 58, your
1Lordship is paying little heed to OPC observations
2I trust.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well ----
4 MR IRVING: That is the German Office of the Protection of the
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I follow that. We went through this
7yesterday and it seems to me I make up my mind about these
8organizations on the basis of what Professor Funke tells
10 MR IRVING: Yes.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And not what the OPC says.
12 MR IRVING: We did have a discussion about it yesterday, and
13the impression I got was that your Lordship would attach
14little weight to what these ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I said yesterday was exactly what I said
16just now.
17 MR IRVING: I will have to read transcript. 5.3.2, Mr Zundel,
18footnote 198, there is a reference to Zundel's Maulkorb
19which is a ----
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 598?
21 Q. [Mr Irving] I am sorry, footnote 198. There is a reference to a
22Maulkorb having been put on Zundel, a dog, what is the
23word for it ----
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not see it.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] It is probably not important then.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a classic example of what I did invite
1you not to do, which is to go to some rather obscure
2footnote and completely fail to put your case in relation
3to your association or otherwise with Mr Zundel.
4I thought you accepted that Zundel was somebody with whom
5you had a close association?
6 MR IRVING: Yes, indeed, but it is just a trivial point I was
7just going to ask him if he knew why this Maulkorb, this
8gag, had been applied on Zundel, was it just a legal gag.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If it is a trivial point let us, please, not
10bother with it.
11 MR IRVING: Yes. 5.3.26, please, this is Mr Althans who is
12organizing my tour for me in Dresden and elsewhere. It
13states that the turnover did not apply, the Umsatz
14entfallt. Do you know why that was? Are you familiar
15from the correspondence that I had agreed to donate the
16entire proceedings for the rebuilding of the Church of our
17Lady in Dresden?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I recall, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. So there is nothing sinister about that particular
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it seems not.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 5.3.7, I am sorry my numbering has gone slightly
23astray, 5.3.7, you have: "In his report on Irving's court
24appearance", and you give as a footnote there 218. Is the
25source you give for that ----
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Where is 218?
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Footnote 218, would I be right in describing that book
2that you are using there as being an anti-fascist kind of
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again? Where you are, please?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have now gone back to paragraph 5.3.7.
6 MR IRVING: Footnote 218 about Karl Philipp?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 5.3.7.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] I am just commenting on your evidently using what I would
9call anti-fascist sources. It is footnote 218. The
10question is purely, is that book you quote there what you
11would call an anti-fascist source?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Exactly.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. You accept such sources quite uncritically, do you?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I stated yesterday that I do it for a special purpose in a
15special situation where these sources seem to be very
16valid. Of course I have to do it in the case of the
17Michael Schmidt video, and this is a kind of rewriting of
18the whole video material Michael Schmidt put to these
19people. That is why, otherwise I would not, because
20I have to check again and again, but I could check,
21especially these sources, by seeing the videos and seeing
22what it means and what not.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Would it not have been preferable to have used the
24original sources rather than other people's ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, are you challenging the
26correctness of what Mr Philipp wrote, because if you are
1not, why are we spending a long time discussing whether
2the source for it is reliable?
3 MR IRVING: We will spend no further time. Paragraph 5.3.19,
4Professor Funke. We are now on page 66. We are back at
5the Moers meeting?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] At 5.3.17 before that, you describe the speech I made at
8Moers as being demagogic or I describe it as being
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you object, demagogic, if you remember the little
12speech I made at the Leuchter Congress, was that
13demagogic, although all I was saying was that I am not
14allowed to speak?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It refers to your diary.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but, I mean, there is nothing reprehensible about
17making a demagogic speech inherently or is there?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] All right.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] My perception of demagogic is not so good as yours.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] 5.3.19, we are now actually going on to the content of the
22Moers speech?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] The Moers speech was organized by Mr Althans, was it?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] And here I am quoted as saying by the transcript: "Then
1I believed these gentlemen [German historians] who said
2that something happened at Auschwitz. Now I no longer
3believe this story at all. Today I say the following:
4there were no gassings in Auschwitz". Stop there, do you
5know the difference between Auschwitz and Birkenhau?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you read either in these court documents or before or
8since an article published in L'Expresse, a French news
9magazine of repute, in January 1995 which established that
10the gas chamber at Auschwitz which is shown to the
11tourists is fake and that they admit it?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Give me the evidence, but it was debated very much in this
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, we have been through that several
15times. It has nothing to do with this witness's
17 MR IRVING: It is my way just of reminding the court.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, please accept that I remember what you
19say about the dummies at Dachau and Auschwitz.
20 MR IRVING: The court did interrupt me when I was trying
21to cross-examine van Pelt about this matter.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Only because you had previously
23cross-examined him about it. So don't let us spend time
24with Professor Funke on it.
25 MR IRVING: The topics mentioned in paragraph 5.3.23?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] It is over the page actually, at the top of page 68, there
2are several topics mentioned there, are any of those
3topics Holocaust denial or anti-Semitism or are they just
4plain revisionism?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I just have to read the sentence. No, it seems not.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] This is Mr Althans who was organizing this particular tour
7with these topics?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 69, half way down the page, the letter was headed
10with a quote from Irving, the question is what evidence do
11you have that there was ever such a quote from me?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To what line are you referring to, please?
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Effectively, the second half of that page beginning with
14"The letter was headed"?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 69? Yes, I have it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] This is a letter issued by some organization with an
17invitation to a speech by me and then it is headed with
18what is said to be a quotation from me?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are saying that is something you never
21 MR IRVING: That is what I am putting to this witness, my Lord,
22yes. Have you seen any evidence that that quotation
23actually comes from anything I wrote or said?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I know that to a degree you referred to that kind of
25ideas, that is quoted there, that I know by the bundle of
26excerpts on anti-Semitism that Mr Rampton brought to the
1court. Yes. But I do not know now, I have to look at the
2bundles to see.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. I do not want to dwell too long on organizations,
4but there are two or three bodies that you mentioned in
5that paragraph, 5.3.27, are any of them banned or
6right-wing extremists to your knowledge?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 5.3.27?
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. The Arbeitskreis Deutsche Wahrheit or the
9Forderverein Junges Deutschland?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to look up, I do not know.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you heard of them before?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not at that point, not at that point, it seems to, not at
13that point in time.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] But have you ever heard of them?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, but I do not know if they are banned. I have to look
16up later on.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But it is not of interest ...
19 Q. [Mr Irving] But you just say that they are right wing extremists,
20although you obviously do not know very much about them?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is the point you want to make?
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Then I have to look up more precise than...
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, unless his Lordship attaches importance here,
25I think we will move on.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK, good.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] The impression I had was that you are relatively
2unfamiliar with these bodies and that you were willing to
3express an opinion on them, nonetheless?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So what did I say? So now come to the point, please.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] When I asked you were you familiar with them you said,
6well ----
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] --- yes and no.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What did I say on these groups, little groups? What did
10I say? What did I say to present them? What did I say?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What Mr Irving said you said was that you had
12said that they were right-wing extremist organizations,
13but I am not quite sure where you are supposed to have
14said that.
15 MR IRVING: I asked if they were, my Lord, and he said, yes, he
16thought they were, but this was after he had said he did
17not know very much about them.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, this is right. They are listed in this hundreds of
19groups of right-wing extremist tiny groups, and it is of
20interest that you spoke there and that they are perceived
21as right-wing extremists. I can look it up, I mean, of
22course if you want, so I looked it up but I have to
23refresh my memory. I think this is valid to do.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] You are going back to the consensus, are you? Are you
25going to have another look at the consensus of all the
26social sciences?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was you who asked the question, Mr Irving?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Whatever you call it, I do not care.
3 MR IRVING: I am quite happy to abandon this question
4because ----
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no, I want to know it.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you not say on 5.3.32 that they were fictitious
7organizations, 5.3.32?
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: They will not be in your book if they were
9fictitious, I suspect.
10 MR IRVING: I am trying to speed things up.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Just a second.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] I will be quite happy to move on.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, whilst the witness, he is
14obviously very keen to look up and I understand why.
15I think you have been ----
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, this is one of this little group without ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Funke, can you just pause a moment
18because I just want to say something to Mr Irving.
19Mr Irving, I think you have been cross-examining for
20nearly a day now. I have to tell you that I am not much
21the wiser as to what your case is in regard to what this
22witness has said, namely that there are these individuals
23with whom you have a close association and they are all on
24the extreme right-wing fringe. I cannot let the
25cross-examination go on. I keep asking you to focus on
26what matters.
1 MR IRVING: On individuals.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And you are continuing to go through
3footnotes and trivial points. I think the point has come
4where, unless Mr Rampton discourages me, I must say to you
5you must at 2 o'clock put your case in relation to these
6individuals and the organizations so that I understand
7what it is, because I do not think it is right for me to
8let the court's time be taken up with cross-examination
9which seems to me to achieving virtually nothing.
10 MR RAMPTON: Can I add to that?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would like to hear Mr Rampton on this
12because I do not want to be over strict.
13 MR RAMPTON: No, I embrace that because I have no idea what
14Mr Irving says about these people's political attitudes,
15(a) what their political attitudes are, and (b) whether he
16knows what they are. That is essential. What is also
17essential is that he should say yeah or nay, does he
18propose that these meetings which he attended were in
19their content entirely innocent?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it has to be done.
21 MR IRVING: That is for cross-examination.
22 MR IRVING: No, it is not; I do not know what Mr Irving's case
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I want to make every allowance for the fact
25that you are in person and you have had an appalling task
26cross-examining witness after witness, expert witness
1after expert witness, and there is an enormous volume of
2material you are having to deal with. But, in the end
3what matters is these individuals and the associations
4that they had or did not have with you. You must do it.
5 MR IRVING: Well, I believed I was working through this report
6name by name and, effectively, devaluing the quality of
7the evidence that had been given to suggest, except for a
8number of key names which we are all familiar with.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, what you are not doing, it is perfectly
10true that you pick up the odd name like Karl Philipp, or
11whatever it may be, and you make one or two -----
12 MR IRVING: That is the way the report has been written.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You ask one or two questions by reference to
14individual diary entries, but you are missing the wood for
15the trees again. What I need to have you put to this
16witness is, "I did not ever meet with Karl Philipp or
17I may have spoken at meetings at which he was present, but
18I did not know it" or "Yes, we used to associate quite
19regularly together, but there is nothing particularly
20right-wing about him". Put your case.
21 MR IRVING: I can do that in 15 minutes, my Lord.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I do not want you to telescope it too
23much, but what has taken place this morning has really
24not, I think, advanced your case on this aspect of this
25trial at all.
26 MR IRVING: Well, I hoped that I was shaking your Lordship's
1confidence in page after page after page of this report,
2which is initially impressive, but then once we take out
3the OPC reports, it becomes very much thinner. Once we
4take out the names of people I have never even met or
5heard of it becomes frequently sparse and fragmentary.
6Now we can deal with the people whose names I have heard
7of and deal with them in short order. For that reason I
8will go to the appendix and look at the names that we have
9highlighted, the people on the list, and put the
10propositions directly to the witness ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
12 MR IRVING: --- that your Lordship is suggesting.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I think that is the right way to do it,
14but do not feel confined -- when you are on a relevant
15topic, I do not want you to cut your cross-examination
17 MR IRVING: There are matters like the Adolf Hitler toast that
18was organized by Ewald Althans and things like that, and
19I would hate to let that go by the board.
20 MR RAMPTON: No, that should not be let go because that is a
21point I seek to be of some importance.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I mean, I cannot dictate the way you
23cross-examined, but if I had been doing this instead of
24you, I would have taken the individuals, I think I would
25have taken them one by one, and I would have gone through
26the alleged association to see how much of it there really
2 MR IRVING: My Lord, you have considerable more experience than
3I do in cross-examination and some of your clients have
4ended up in prison and some of them, no doubt, have been
5acquitted and have been awarded large sums in damages.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is kind of you to put it like that. Now
7let us get on with the cross-examination.
8 MR IRVING: I am totally ignorant in the manner of how to deal
9with these things. I will certainly take the 5.3.35, we
10will deal with 5.3.35. My Lord, I do feel we have
11achieved things this morning, for example, establishing
12agreement that at most of these meetings I have rubbed
13their noses in the Bruns Report, things like that, which
14I hope your Lordship will not overlook when the time
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have that answer, yes, certainly.
17THE WITNESS: Can I just answer the question?
18 MR IRVING: Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What about those three organizations?
20 MR IRVING: Very briefly.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The [German] quotation in the bundle No. 2, bundle H5.(i),
22No. (ii) or 2, I do not know, (ii) I think -- no, it is 2,
23right. Page on the bottom, 562, this is the leaflet and
24this leaflet is very sharp in criticising in the same line
25of Holocaust denial calling one of the most hideous
26sentences of Mr Irving. So the document itself shows me
1this, that this is a very Holocaust denialist group that
2invites Mr Irving to state things. The signatures are of
3Steffan Rahber Forderverein Junges Deutschland and of
4Manfried Angeford, [German]. They met together to invite
5him in early '90, in March '90, it is in the Ruhe area in
6the munster, in the north rural area, and then there is --
7the next does not deal with this group. It is an
8invitation by Valendi in 56, on the bottom of the line
9564. I can go on and describe the content of the leaflet,
10it is very clear, but if you want I can allude to this at
11length, your Lordship.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No I think that probably will be sufficient.
13 MR IRVING: Will you go to please to paragraph 5.3.35 of your
14report at page 72?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 5.3?
16 Q. [Mr Irving] 35.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Now on reading my diary of April 20th -- what day is April
1920th in the German calendar, political calendar?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was a Friday.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no, he is referring to the birthday of Adolf Hitler.
23 MR IRVING: It was Friday and Hitler's birthday in that order.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you would do well to have with you,
25Professor Funke, RWE 2, tab 9, page 44.
26 MR IRVING: My Lord, what page?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: RWE 2, tab 9, page 44.
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] On the right side, the page number. Yes, OK, I have it.
3 MR IRVING: This is a dinner organized, firstly, this is a page
4from my private diary dated April 20th 1990?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] And there is a reference in the paragraph beginning with
7the word "Dosed" to a dinner organized by Mr Althans in
8the hotel?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Drielogen Hotel was a reputable Hotel in Munich, is it
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me?
13 Q. [Mr Irving] It is a very reputable hotel in the city centre of Munich,
14is it not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems to, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] And the people who were present, they are listed at the
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] I found a list from which I have written down the names?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] The list says that those present are Staglich, Althans and
22a number of others. Do you recognize any English people
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Mr Hancock?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] And at this dinner party Althans offered a toast to Adolf
2Hitler, is that right?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] "All rose and toasted", right?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] From the diary entry, is it evident that I joined in or
7I did not join in this very tasteless toast?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I quote, "It ended with a drinkspruch spoken by him to a
9certain statesman whose 101st birthday" ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you answer the question?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- "falls today. All rose, toasted. I had no glass as
12I do not drink".
13 MR IRVING: Yes. So is it evident from that that I did not
14join in the toast?
15 MR RAMPTON: Yes, but there is nothing in the diary about ----
16 MR IRVING: Mr Rampton, will you allow the witness to answer,
18 MR RAMPTON: No, no, no. The witness ----
19 MR IRVING: I would grateful if you did not interrupt until he
20has finished his reply.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If it is an objection which is not a valid
22one, then I will obviously reject it.
23 MR RAMPTON: Of course, as has not happened yet in this case,
24but has happened to me often enough in the past, Mr Irving
25should not lard his questions with interpretations like
26"this very tasteless event". There is nothing in the
1diary about that.
2 MR IRVING: Let me start off, before answering this question,
3would you consider it to be very tasteless for a German to
4offer a toast to Adolf Hitler in the presence of two
5English people? Yes or no? Would you offer a toast to
6Adolf Hitler in the presence of two English people?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I would not do it anyway.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you consider it to be a matter of dubious taste?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You know I would say ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you answer?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I answer, just now I am answering.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He did answer. He said he would not think it
13was very -- he thought it would be rather tasteless in any
14event, whether there were English people present or not.
15 MR IRVING: In other words, the word "tasteless" was
16appropriate. Thank you, my Lord.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And if ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, no, let us move on.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If I regard these two, no, excuse me, my Lord. If
20I regard the two persons who were there, and I would have
21been Althans if I can, then I would not have the problem
22to do this toast.
23 MR IRVING: Right, now will you answer?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This tasteless toast.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you now answer my previous question? Is it evident
26from the diary that I did not join in the toast?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is not evident. "All rose, toasted. I had no glass as
2I do not drink". I do not know.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] If one has no glass and one does not drink, how can one
4toast someone? Will you now answer my question? Is it
5evident from the diary that I did not join in the toast?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I really cannot say.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] OK. You cannot say or you will not say?
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, that is unnecessary.
9 MR IRVING: Will you accept that it is likely that by virtue of
10the fact that I recorded this incident in my diary I found
11it distasteful?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You did not say, you did not write it, and you are an
13admirer, to a degree, of Adolf Hitler and Tony Hancock,
14the same. We saw the video where he had this accruals(?)
15of Adolf Hitler, so why not for you?
16 Q. [Mr Irving] The video of the accruals of Adolf Hitler, what is this?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the video we saw Tony Hancock distributing or showing
18accruals of Adolf Hitler, and we know of his record that
19he is somehow dealing with National Socialism. He was
20there, you both English persons were there, and I can
21allude to the others there, Ingrid Weckert, a very
22anti-Semitic, you know, person. By the way, Ingrid
23Weckert should have been on this list because she was very
24active in the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, just to mention
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it evident from this list that I have written down that
1most of the name are unknown to me and that I wrote it
2down as a curiosity to know who was present at this
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You know Ingrid Weckert, it was shown by the ----
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Was that the question that I asked?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- cross-examinations -- yes. It is part of the answer
7that you know a lot of these people.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Do I know all of the people?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That I do not know.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us go through them.
11 MR IRVING: Yes.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Through them.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Staglich.
14 MR IRVING: Are you suggesting that the fact that I wrote down
15this name on the list is evidence that I knew Mr Staglich?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think you may have known Staglich at that period. You
17know Althans. You know Philipp. You know Huffgoes very
18much. This we viewed of your cassette. You know Ingrid
19Weckert. You alluded to this during the cross-examination
20of Professor Evans. You know Professor Schracker.
21Schracker, I have to say did ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving] On what basis do you think I know Professor Schracker?
23Have you seen any ----
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Because he did a brilliant book on him, on David Irving,
25the later days, and he was there in the audience where you
26were there the next day.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] When did Professor Schracker write this book on me?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh, you do not know?
3 Q. [Mr Irving] No, when was this?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] A praising book to you -- in the last years. Oh,
5wonderful! I give it to you.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] I am flattered to know this, but are you suggesting that
7at this time or at any time I have had any correspondence
8or dealings with Professor Schracker at all?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You met in the same Congress. He did a piece, he did a
10statement so far all the sources shows me at this very
11meeting the other day and Franco Griesch is the ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Let us stay with Schracker for a moment. Have you seen
13any correspondence between me and Schracker?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no, not correspondence.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Is he mentioned in my diary apart from this list?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Arnold Freulich, have you seen any correspondence between
18me and him?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Daniel Konekt, have you seen any correspondence between me
21and him?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, he is the buddy of, if I may say so, of Althans.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but have you seen any correspondence between me and
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] The fact ----
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You mentioned Daniel Konekt a lot of times in your diary.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Leota Fontiss -- in what connection have I mentioned
3him, having contact with him or ----
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, with Daniel, you did the same tour to Strasbourg.
5That was before.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] What is Daniel Konekt? Is he a chauffeur or what? I do
7not know.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Look at your diaries.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] You are the expert. You are telling us these people
10are ----
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I say look at your diaries, you know.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you remember at the beginning of this cross-examination
13I showed you a list of 6,500 names?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I figured out three of them as noted in this, with
15respect to these whole endeavour. We can go to this list.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Loeta Fontiss, do you ----
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] H Forster?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, most of the people on this list I have no
21idea who they are, do you agree?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] You do agree?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot, so how many are on this list, it is 18 and half
25of them you know, Staglich, Althans, Philipp,
26Huffgoes ----
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Don't let us go through them all over again.
2 MR IRVING: No, no.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- Weckert, Schracker, Franco Grietsch, Hancock, that is
4eight, nine, and Daniel Konekt, so ----
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you turn to page 46 and you see the diary entry for
6April 22: "Headache all day, aspirin at breakfast. I
7had fixed at his request an interview over breakfast with
8Judge Staglich". Does this imply to you that I do not
9know who Judge Staglich is, and this is probably my first
10ever meeting with him, my only ever meeting with him? And
11I say, "I can fit you in at breakfast"?
12 MR RAMPTON: I do not understand that because if they had
13dinner on the 20th, it was not the first time they had met
14two days later at breakfast. I do not follow it.
15 MR IRVING: Professor Funke, do you appreciate (which
16Mr Rampton apparently does not) the difference between
17meeting somebody at a dinner when somebody is 24 seats
18away down the table and shaking hands with them and having
19an earnest discussion with them? Is there a difference,
20in your opinion?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving -----
22 MR IRVING: I am trying to get answers from this witness but
23with ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- the picture of 24 people at dinner
25sitting in a line seems to me to be rather illustrative of
26the way in which you are approaching this.
1 MR RAMPTON: Particularly since it is only 19 and not 24.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it says 24 actually.
3 MR RAMPTON: Does it? Oh.
4 MR IRVING: Professor Funke, have you attended large dinner
5parties where you have not the faintest notion who the
6rest of the guests are, yes or no?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] This breakfast invitation with Staglich, who is one of the
9people on the list, on April 22, is that an indication
10that I have fitted him in at breakfast and said, "Well,
11come and see me at breakfast" and that I never saw him
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not get your point.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Judge or not. I mean, we are trying to establish how
15intense, to use the word, my connections with this judge
16or ex judge were.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, again this is a good example. Put your
18case. Are you really saying that you only encountered
19Staglich ----
20 MR IRVING: On this one occasion.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- once at a dinner party when you did not
22know he was there and on a second occasion when you fitted
23him in for an interview over breakfast?
24 MR IRVING: Let me put it like this to the witness.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that your case? If it is your case, fine.
26 MR IRVING: Professor Funke, will you agree that the evidence
1is that I had only one meaningful encounter with
2Dr Staglich or Judge Staglich when I fitted him in for a
3breakfast appointment on this day, on April 22nd, and that
4you have not seen any evidence to the contrary?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. It is not a question of whether he has
6seen any evidence; it is a question of what you say the
7position is, Mr Irving. There is a difference. Are you
8saying that there were just those two occasions when you
9even spoke to the man?
10 MR IRVING: Yes, of course. That is precisely what I am
11putting to the witness. I appreciate the witness is very
12tired, but I would like answers.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the answer Professor Funke? Only saw
14him twice?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I see what I see, and these are the references.
16 MR IRVING: A meaningful encounter?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And I saw the videos and there was Staglich in Hagenau and
18this was way before and, of course, there were 80 people
19in Hagenau or 100, and the literature shows that all the
20late 80s, Staglich was one of the prominent along with Uda
21Valendi, so there is a high probability that you know him.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] From this same consensus of opinion of the social
23scientists, is that where this probability comes from or
24is it from any documents that you have seen?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not answer this question.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] I am sorry?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not answering the question and I am not
2going to say he must.
3 MR IRVING: In other words, there is no evidence.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving ----
5 MR RAMPTON: No, I am sorry.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Rampton?
7 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, it just will not do. There is a long
8entry, for example, for December '89 -- this is not from
9the red RWE files but from the diary files -- of a letter
10from Mr Irving to Staglich dated, the diary entry, I am
11sorry, I do not know the date, it must be the last day of
12November, in fact, or something like that.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It had better wait re-examination so that we
14know what the date is.
15 MR RAMPTON: It is villainous, in my submission -- I use that
16word deliberately -- for Mr Irving to propose that he has
17had no meaningful contact with Staglich in order to
18mislead the witness and, perhaps, indirectly the court
19when I see from his diary a long German letter to
20Dr Staglich a whole year earlier.
21 MR IRVING: Saying precisely what?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may be, Mr Rampton, if I may suggest it,
23that Staglich might be an example of somebody who it would
24be, in the light of the way Mr Irving puts his case, who
25might be added as another of the sections in one of these
26RWE files.
1 MR RAMPTON: He might be, it might be that it is difficult. To
2trawl a haystack like that is quite hard.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you must be appreciating that
4I must have you put your case in relation to these
5witnesses ----
6 MR IRVING: I thought I had put it more clearly than I did,
7that I had had no meaningful contacts with Mr Staglich.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You did eventually, yes, and I would like you
9to do that with the others and not take time, I think, on
10individual paragraphs of the report, although there may be
11some important ones.
12 MR IRVING: I guarantee we will finish within 30 minutes from
132 o'clock, I will have finished with all the other
14numbers, all the other names, and this is the way to do
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Very well. 2 o'clock.
17 (Luncheon adjournment)
18(2.00 p.m.)
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving.
20 MR IRVING: Thank you, my Lord. I asked the defence to show me
21the Staglich letter on which they are going to rely and
22they refused. They said they would have it translated.
23 MR RAMPTON: No, I have not had it translated. It is in the
24original German in Mr Irving's diary. We had but the one
25copy in court. We have more now if Mr Irving would like
26to have one.
1 MR IRVING: I will show it to the witness. (Same handed).
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Thank you.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] It begins three lines on the bottom of the page. Have you
4read it?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] So I just ask you two or three questions based on that
7letter, is there any indication from this letter that
8there had been any meetings between myself and Staglich
9prior to that letter?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there any indication that I had written to him? Is he
12responding to a letter of mine, or is he in fact just
13writing out of the blue to me?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know if he is writing out of the blue, but he did
15write to you.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Does he reference a letter from me there, does he say in
17reply to your letter of?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, from the 28th of supposedly November.
19 MR RAMPTON: We do not have the rest of the correspondence
20because it has not been disclosed.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I just referred to the letter and stated here 28th
23 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I know, we do not have the earlier
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Funke, can you translate the first
26sentence of the second paragraph of the letter?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The second paragraph?
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I was surprised that the facsimile publisher, for you it
4is not a concept still. It is a very small, very
5aggressive, yes, publication.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Publishing house.
7 THE WITNESS: That absolutely is in our sense according to our
9 MR IRVING: Are you familiar with the facsimile, they publish
10historical facsimiles?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I do not.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, we are all interested in facsimiles, we
13are all interested in accurate representations of
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Can you say the name of this facsimile firm?
16 Q. [Mr Irving] I am sorry?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Can you say the name of this facsimile?
18 Q. [Mr Irving] It is called facsimile for law?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK, good.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you accept that the reference to being "in our sense"
21is that they are interested in accurate reproductions of
22documents as facsimiles?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think it meant -- the "our" means -- the our it is an
24our sense means more than just being interested in
25documentation, then, for example, I would be included in
26that, and why.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, in other words, from this correspondence or on this
2letter from me to Dr Staglich, I am replying to him and he
3is asking me for advice on publishing something?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, and you are replying and saying, OK, it is absolutely
5in the like minded, you know, direction of publishing
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes?
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Sinne" means thought or mind, does it?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me?
10 Q. [Mr Irving] "Sinne" means thought or mind?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Is a whole figure of speech?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is in our, you know, joint effort.
14 THE INTERPRETER: "Along our lines" is a better translation.
15 MR IRVING: I will leave that, the Staglich letter, unless your
16Lordship wishes to ask me any further questions.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No.
18 MR IRVING: Go briefly to page 74, which is one more item
19referring to Wahrheit macht frei meeting in Munich?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 5.3.40.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] I have a little chicken to break with you, I think we say
24in German, do we not (German spoken)?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Go ahead.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] You say some members of the audience wore donkey masks and
1hung notices around their neck? My Lord, you remember
2the --
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I do.
4 MR IRVING: The text which you put here is "I still believe in
5Holocaust, the ass that I am"; is that the text that was
6actually on the photograph we saw on the video?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it was a reference to it, and I have to admit this, if
8there is not no other showing of 21st August '90, then it
9was a mistake. But, you know, the sense of it again was,
10as you know, the 78 presentation of this ugly reference to
11the Holocaust denying.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] But there is a major difference?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] By Boris and Kuhnen.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] But there is a major difference between the text that you
15have said in your expert report was on that notice and
16what we actually saw with our own eyes?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, this is a mistake.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] The source of your mistake is that book in source 285,
19which is one your anti-fascist sources.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you any doubt, Professor Funke, that the
21caption which I think was along the lines of, "some people
22believe everything they are told".
23 MR IRVING: That is right.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you in any doubt about what that is
25really referring to?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I am without any doubt that this is referring to this very
1quotation of 1978.
2 MR IRVING: Well, I do not think that is the question his
3Lordship was actually asking.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me --
5 MR RAMPTON: Yes, it was.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was.
7 MR IRVING: I think what his Lordship really wished to ask you
8if I may be so bold and impertinent is.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you ask what you think I wish to ask.
10 MR IRVING: This is what David Irving would wish to ask, you
11would associate that only with the Holocaust lie, would
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] That particular, yes?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And you?
16 Q. [Mr Irving] I was going to thank his Lordship for having opened this
17avenue of question. Over all the talks that I delivered
18in Germany, speaking to these groups that you consider to
19be right-wing extremists, was the Holocaust ever or the
20only topic that I talked about?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was the topic, it was not the only one.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it fair to say that there was a whole quiverful? A
23whole package?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Package, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Of topics on which I talked, about 20 different topics?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] There was the Nuremberg trials --
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] -- Churchill, there was Pearl Harbour, there was a
4whole --
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Dresden.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] -- Dresden. The expulsion of the Germans from the Eastern
7territories, there was the Eastern frontiers --
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Hungary thing --
9 Q. [Mr Irving] -- the Hungary uprising. Rommel, you remember --
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- Rommel.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] -- so, what I am going to put to you is the fact that that
12these revisionists lectures, which were held around
13Germany, to which, in fact, that placard refers, refers
14not just to Holocaust revisionism, but to the whole
15revisionism scene, which includes everything about history
16that needing revising?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh no, there is a difference between the revisionist -- to
18revise history and this package of persons, or package of
19literature, that is referring to this revisionism we are
20talking yesterday and today about, that came to the fore
21in the German public, especially since '89 and with you.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] But you agree that I spoke to these bands of incorrigible
23young Germans, constantly improving their mind on history
24from my viewpoint as a revisionist historian giving them
25an alternative viewpoint on history, not just about the
26Holocaust, but about many other topics?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It depends on the subject. You know the debate on
2Dresden, for example, has its own tone and has an own
3message, we can go into that, compared to that of course
4it goes to the peak of this, in this sense, revisionists
5who really dispute the amount, and even the content of the
6Holocaust. So of course there are different levels, but,
8 Q. [Mr Irving] The answer is, yes, I did speak on different topics to
9different groups?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No question.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] I did not change the cut of my jib. I did not change --
12I am not trying to be deliberately obtuse. I did not
13change the content of my talk depending on whom I was
14talking to?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh, I heard the translation, that you are leaning to the
16public, right.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] I did not change the content. It was always the same, the
18same record that every audience got, whether it was
19generals or right-wing extremists?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, you changed, of course. That is your reversal, your
21conversion, if I may say so, you had during the court
22procedures in Toronto and since then --
23 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not think you quite understood the question.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- I did not get --
25 Q. [Mr Irving] I did not adapt the meeting, I did not adapt the content
26of my talk to the audience that was in front of me?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- I do not know. You said in -- I read a lot of your
2letters, you see. In one of your letters you said you
3know what a populist is, you have to give to the people
4and I am good populist.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] This is a familiar saying, is it not, the good
6politician --
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean you said it.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] -- the good politician says what the public want to hear.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, you said you will do it there, you are good.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] That is not a very extreme viewpoint, it is, it is more
12 I am making much quicker progress forwards now,
13if I may, 1979, paragraph 5.3.3, the son of Rudolf Hess,
14is what you hold against the son of Rudolf Hess the fact
15that he is the son of Rudolf Hess, is there not a German
16word for that called "zibenhuft" (?)
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, come on, I do not --
18 Q. [Mr Irving] You mention --
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- I do not rely on "zibenhuft". I see the son and the
20son of the son each different, of course.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] -- you mention the fact that he is in your little list,
22you mention the fact he is the son of the famous Rudolf
23Hess, the martyr?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think he is in the little list, if
25you referring to the list of associates.
26 MR IRVING: Page 143, my Lord, he is on the little list.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But if you remember we went through that
2list, and we have selected, or rather the Defendants have
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, but ----
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Those whom they rely on.
6 MR IRVING: They are not going to rely on Rudolf Hess.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not in the list.
8 MR RAMPTON: I do not rely on Rudolf Hess. He has been long
9dead, I think.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is Rudiger.
11 MR RAMPTON: I have a theory which I am going to ask about in a
12re-examination in the light of recent questions that --
13 MR IRVING: Down goes another one then.
14 MR RAMPTON: There is a tendency to glorify what might one call
15"Nazi war heroes", but I will come back to that point.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a different point.
17 MR RAMPTON: That is a different point.
18 MR IRVING: I am quite happy to be accused of glorifying Rudolf
19Hess. Very happy and not at all ashamed.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think we need to spend very long on
21Rudiger Hess.
22 MR IRVING: No. Turn to page 81, you mention on paragraph
235.5.10, I think completely gratuitously, Michael Kuhnen
24died of a certain illness?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there any reason why you mention that in this report?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was said in the whole publication of these groups that
2it was because of AIDS and he was reduced in his
3capacities and believe me I do not rely on this specifics.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to ignore that paragraph
6 MR IRVING: Very good. Page 85, the final footnote on the
7page, please, there is a letter to Ernst Zundel that you
8may find significant about Althans. Always interesting to
9read what one --
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What note?
11 Q. [Mr Irving] -- the final footnote on the page. Interesting to read
12what one extremist writes to another about a third one, is
13it not, here I am saying that Althans is damaging the
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you accept that the "Bewegung" I am referring to is
17the revisionist movement?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to read it, otherwise -- here at the top, at the
19bottom, yes, decide what to do with who is damaging the
20Bewegung by his antics in his close contacts to the media.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] And my question is, the word "bewegung" is a reference
22purely to the revisionist movement?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe this is true, and by this you are saying what you
24alluded to a minute ago, that there is a difference
25between revised history, and in that sense revisionism,
26and the revisionist movement.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] And the reason I am writing a German word is because Mr
2Zundel is German, is he not, sometimes you get a better
3nuance using a German word?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To be honest, I am not sure what is all is included if you
5say "bewegung".
6 Q. [Mr Irving] If it is the revisionist movement then, of course, it is
7not just Holocaustism, it is about Dresden, about
8Nuremberg, about Rommel. It is the whole of all the talks
9I delivered to any of these organizations with the
10revisionist theme?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The revisionist theme, revisionist movement means so far
12I got it especially to revise German history.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In a special direction.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Over the page, if you look at the sentence beginning
16with the words "needless to say" --
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Where is it, excuse me?
18 Q. [Mr Irving] -- on page 86.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 86?
20 Q. [Mr Irving] A letter I am writing to Ernst Zundel at the beginning of
21the fourth sentence down "is needless to say"; does that
22paragraph imply to you that I am determined to keep within
23the law of whatever country I am in?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I just have read it, excuse me.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Even in private I am warning these people I will not do
26anything that infringes the law of my host country.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] According to the -- where is it stated?
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Where is it stated, in the middle?
4 Q. [Mr Irving] The third paragraph on page 86: "Needless to say I have
5the utmost faith in you. You are a professional. You know
6the law in both Canada and Germany and keep within it so
7far as I can judge"?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] I have respect for the law.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is true. You, in this letter you try to, you
11present, observe the law, right, and you did it often in
12these kind of letters, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] And this is not a letter that has been written for window
14dressing, is it? It is not a self-serving letter in your
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What is self-serving?
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Just for the purpose?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is difficult to assess, because it is of course for
19the windows, that is to say for the lawyers and that makes
21 Q. [Mr Irving] That is your opinion.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And you ask about my opinion, and on the other hand it
23make sure of your own purpose.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, that I am determined that nobody should even think of
25doing something that would infringe the law; is that fair?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The letter shows that.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 90, moving on rapidly, there are references there to
2a meeting organized for me by a Dr Drayher (?) who was a
3very prominent member, as you say, of the Christian
4Democratic Party; is that one of the ruling parties in
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It was.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] It was. So he is not an extremist, is he?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, as a member of the party, but with respect to his own
9convictions and visions we have to look, we have to have a
10closer look on his wording. I did.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, he may have had political incorrect
12thoughts in the privacy of his own home in Germany, which
13is a problem, is it?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is your language.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Germany, you agree is a much more sensitive area than the
16free world like England and the United States?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, by reason, because of we --
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have been into this. I have stopped that
19question twice today.
20 MR IRVING: Well, very well.
21 Page 93, please, paragraph 5.72, here you begin
22paragraph, quite rightly, by saying: "In an unusual move
23Irving took the initiative in his own hands in attempting
24to organise the years' tours"; does that not tell you that
25as of 1st January 1992 Althans was finished as far as
26I was concerned? I no longer built on him?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To put it differently you very angry very often about the
2behaviour of Althans, yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, page 98, the first paragraph, you quote a newspaper
4there, The Independent, which says that I spoke in Poland?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] And you are aware, of course, that I have never been to
7Poland in my life. So this is the problem we have with
8sources that we use, is it not? Sources sometimes can be
9very wrong?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no, I was very cautious, I just said the journalist
11for The Independent suggested that Irving spoke in Poland
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is it. We have to at least put it to the court that
15there are other, you know, sayings, and I so far I see
16I have to check it again, that I did not take side with,
17I did not take side to this.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 01, please, the first paragraph, several names here,
19Althans, I am speaking at various meetings; can you see
20from that paragraph what the topic is? Is it
21anti-Semitism? Is it the Holocaust, or is it a scientific
22lecture on the Goebbels diaries which I just retrieved
23from Moscow, and is it also a talk on the Nuremberg
24trials? Organized by these extremists, according to the
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There is a reference to Nuremberg.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There is a Goebbels reference here, but if you say
3I believe. The other thing is what you are saying when
4you were referring to Goebbels, and there we come to
5another point.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but that is one of the other experts.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 127, please.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] The last paragraph beginning "although".
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Would you be so kind just to show it to me, because I put
12it out, I do not know why.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] 127.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I have not it here.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] You are quoting from the Munich City authorities decision
16to ban me from the German Reich.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] From the what?
18 Q. [Mr Irving] From the German Reich, this is the ban imposed on me by
19the Munich City authorities, was it not?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] The last paragraph beginning with the word "although",
22I draw your attention to the second and their lines in
23square brackets. I am going to ask you, you are not
24implying that I am in any way connected with the
25terrorists attacks or attacks on foreigners' hostels or
26anything contained in those square brackets?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not see how anyone can possibly think
2that he was.
3 MR IRVING: If he just says "no" that will resolve the matter.
4He puts it in his report that "his extremism in its most
5extreme form"?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not by any means, in any sense of this whole report
7rely you personally directly to this kind of atrocities.
8But what has to be --
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Relate.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- relate, excuse me. But I just quote the decision of
11the authority and the authorities said, OK, this kind of
12talking, this kind of -- and I can put it wordly (sic),
13this kind of rhetoric is in the special moment of our
14history, in the early 1990s, very dangerous, because of
15the widespread of this violence, of these thugs in Rostock
16and where else. They did not use the word "thugs", but
17you know activists of right-wing extremists and skinheads
18and others who did this violent attacks against
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I put it to you that the fact that a visiting British
21lecturer is talking to groups about Goebbels diaries or
22Nuremberg or Dresden is not in the least bit connected
23with what happened in Rostock and it is very, very
24far-fetched for anybody to suggest the opposite?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course, but I want to remind you to the Halle,
26speaking in the surrounding things of Halle.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Can I take you now to page 130, paragraph 7.3, the
2second indented paragraph, beginning: "In the coming
3weeks", this is the letter that I have written to
4Mr Wiesal?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] "Film will be supplied from England to avoid problems with
7our traditional enemies", namely in Germany. Right?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Now to whom do you take the phrase "our traditional
10enemies" to be referring there? The enemies of free
11speech? The international Jewish conspiracy or whom, if
12I can put it like that? My Lord, this has nothing to do
13with the extremist topic, but it is to do with the meaning
14of the words "traditional enemies"?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean --
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Can it possibly be taken as meaning Jews?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- it can be, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] In what way?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You did it in the speeches and I --
20 Q. [Mr Irving] In this letter?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- I do not know. I have to read it carefully. Just a
23 Q. [Mr Irving] The position of the Defence is that I used the phrase "our
24traditional enemies" as being coterminous with the Jews.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Again, we should go to this video. This is of special
26importance, but of course it is not a direct -- what is
1it? Reference.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Quite clearly --
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To a special group, but often it is the case and I cannot
4say it is the case here, that you are referring to --
5 Q. [Mr Irving] -- the reference here is --
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- to the international Jewry.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] -- international authorities or the German postal
8authorities or somebody like that, is it not? Which is
9why it has been distributed from England and not from
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. I cannot say.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] But to repeat my question, in this particular case it
13cannot be a reference to the Jews, can it, the answer is
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I think you are right.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, thank you.
17 My Lord, we are now coming very briefly to the
18list at the end, the appendix --
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving I am sorry.
20 MR IRVING: I have done it wrong again, have I?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You asked several questions about the
22way in which this film was going to be supplied to
23Germany. I understand why you did, but you have wholly
24omitted to ask anything about what Professor Funke says
25were the contents of this video, which I notice has you
26saying, and I think you ought it challenge this if you
1disagree with it, that the death factories did not exist.
2And whoever claims to the contrary puts up a blood lie
3against the German people. Surely that is the nub of the
4case that is being made against you in relation to the
5video; not how you manage it convey it to Germany.
6 MR IRVING: Well, it is two part piece of proof here, my Lord.
7The reason I asked the questions I just have is to
8establish in your Lordship's mind firmly the fact that the
9phrase traditional enemies of the truth, or the
10traditional enemies did not refer, as Mr Rampton quite
11properly suggests to your Lordship, that it refers only to
12the Jewish community.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think he was talking about the use of that
14phrase in a different context.
15 MR RAMPTON: I do not say it is coterminous, all I say is that
16it is very often used by Mr Irving to indicate something
17that is apparently called the "international Jewish
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but leave that on one side. If you want
20my view you are plainly not referring to the Jews when you
21talk of traditional enemies, in that context, but the
22reason I have intervened is that I am puzzled by your not
23having tackled Professor Funke --
24 MR IRVING: The particular sentence --
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- About what you are said to have said in
26the video. I do not know whether you did or you did not
1because I have not seen the video but that he is what he
2is claiming in paragraph 7.7.
3 MR IRVING: The sting of that particular sentence but the death
4factories did not exist.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, well, I mean if you not challenging it,
7 MR IRVING: If the reference is to Auschwitz, which it probably
8is probably is although we cannot tell from this excerpt,
9then that has been my position all long. The second
10sentence merely puts icing on the cake, if I can put it
11like that, does not add or subtract anything to it, to the
12sting. The sting is the death factories did not exist.
13This is a reference to Auschwitz. We are talking about
14Auschwitz, that is crematorium No. (ii), and I have not
15the slightest doubt that in my summing up, my closing
16speech, I shall establish that case beyond peradventure.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do not know whether we have the
18transcript of the video?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, we have parts of the video transcribed.
20 MR IRVING: Let me put this question to the witness; have you
21seen the video, or have you read the transcript?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I saw parts of the video also, but I am not sure if I saw
23all, and I do not know if I got the whole text.
24 MR IRVING: Am I right in saying that video called "I Shall
25Return", is an overview of the historical revisionist
26challenges? For example, we have film footage of Dresden
1in it, do you remember that? And film footage of
2Dr Goebbels speaking, so it covers more than just the
3Holocaust, does it not?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Also the coverage of Dresden, I do not know if this is in
5this case, often as Mr Evans puts it, as references to the
6whole procedure of the Second World War and in the top, at
7the top of it to the Holocaust.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Let me move to the question from his Lordship when we are
9dealing with Holocaust-related matters, am I only
10referring to Auschwitz or am I referring to other camps,
11like Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Of course you are referring to others also, of course.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] This is your opinion or can you remember clearly or is
14that just ----
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no, you referred to others also, of course.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] I think we will have to ask to see the transcript or have
17the transcript put to me when the time comes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have got it. It is in the German.
19 MR RAMPTON: It is a full transcript.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a free-standing sentence referring to
21death camps and death factories generally. I simply do
22not at the moment understand why you are suggesting it is
23limited to Auschwitz.
24 MR IRVING: Because this video is 90 minutes long, my Lord, and
25not just five lines long. The part from which this is
26taken (and I know it very clearly) is an exposition of all
1the arguments on Auschwitz, the decodes, the crematoria,
2coke combustion logistics and all the other matters like
3that. We are only dealing with that camp, and that is
4quite plain from the context. That is probably why only
5this part has been quoted.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So if I have to answer very seriously, then I have to have
7this video or the text.
8 MR IRVING: I think it will be properly put to me in
9cross-examination by Mr Rampton if he is confident in the
10other direction.
11 MR RAMPTON: I am perfectly confident. It is not the only such
12statement either by any manner of means, but may I tell
13your Lordship that the whole of that video tape, whose
14authorship Mr Irving is in no position to dispute, is
15being translated this afternoon, and that will be ready by
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr Irving?
18 MR IRVING: So on that video tape, just to ask the question
19again, you cannot be certain one way or the other whether
20I was talking only about Auschwitz or any other camps, you
21cannot remember?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Again I have to go at least to some ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well...
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It does not work. I mean, I have to see the video in such
25or the text and I will not answer that.
26 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, there is no need for this. I am going to
1show some examples in re-examination, so the witness need
2not worry about it at the moment.
3 MR IRVING: That is far more satisfactory. Page 141, we are
4looking now at Thies Christopherson, just drawing a line
5under him. You have agreed, have you not, that my
6relationship with Thies Christopherson has been tenuous.
7There have been, I think you said, one or two meetings
8that he organized at which I spoke, Professor Funke?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me, I have to... I reorganized the things, so just
10a second. Yes?
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, you agree that Professor Christopherson organized one
12or perhaps two meetings at which I spoke, and that there
13is no other real meaningful contact between us?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I would not say so with respect to these meetings, it is
15the case, but, you know, Christopherson was one of this
16little group of people who are actively enacting this kind
17of, as you call it, revisionist movement. So he was at a
18given moment of time very important together with Philipp
19and some others.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] But my specific question was his actual meaningful
21contacts with me have been limited purely to the two
22meetings that he organized at long range, and I turned up
23and spoke and left, is that right?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There are a lot of references in your diaries and
25interactions that is shown in the bundle.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] The references are him inviting me to address meetings
1which I then did not accept?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right, this is included, of course.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there anything else you wish to say about
4Mr Christopherson?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to look at the bundle that was given, just a
6second. Christopherson, yes, as I said before, more
7Christopherson letters to the Plaintiff than the other
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Can I without interrupting you now take you to 143,
10please, Dietler Felderer? We have not dealt with him. He
11was the one who Mr Rampton rightly said you could not tell
12whether he was a man or woman. Am I right in saying there
13has been no contact between Mr Felderer and myself
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You were both on this Leuchter Congress and, aside of
16that, I do not know.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] I shall rephrase it. Has there been any meaningful
18contact between myself and Mr Felderer whatsoever?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I think not, so far I know, I know the sources.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] When I asked you yesterday about Mr Gottfried Kussel who
21is on page 144 and next on our list, I asked if you knew
22of any contacts between Mr Gottfried Kussel and your reply
23was, "I do not know"?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] There is no mention in the diaries, right?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Then I have to be more precise.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] That is what you said yesterday.
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again?
3 Q. [Mr Irving] That is what you said yesterday. Your answer was, "I do
4not know".
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To what question?
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Had you any information or any evidence that there had
7been any contacts between me whatsoever between myself and
8Mr Gottfried Kussel?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Then I have to, then I was a bit tired. To be more
10precise, the kind of context that you have in meetings,
11and I again stated it, I think, today in the morning or
12yesterday that it is of importance that you joined the
13demonstration in Halle, for example, where he was leading
14the demonstration.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] What you are saying is that because he was in Halle on the
16same day that I was and that he was within one
17geographical mile of where I was, this is a meaningful
18contact between me and this rather unpleasant person?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I have to restate it.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] You have no evidence for any other kind of contact?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to restate that this whole organization done and
22prepared by Christian Worch was part of the activities of
23the so-called Gesinnungsgemeinschaft that includes at the
24top of this Gesinnungsgemeinschaft of this organization of
25neo-Nazis, Kussel, Worch and one and two or two others.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] So this is rather like saying that because somebody else
1is member of the AA and you are a member of the AA,
2therefore, you are connected to that man?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What is AA?
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that what you are saying?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If you describe your revisionist movement as an automobile
6club, I would say yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, it is the same kind of argument, is it not?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it is not. You are invited ----
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that good as it gets?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, this is not. It is a total distortion of what all the
11people in the court, of the court, could have seen
12yesterday, and what we described at length.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] But ----
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That you were invited by one of the leading members of the
15Kuhnen connection, that is by Uschi Worch, to make a
16rabble rousing, as you quote yourself, rabble rousing
17speech to them, in a special moment of reshuffling and
18widening the influence of this very group.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] That does not answer the question, does it, as to whether
20you have any evidence of contact meaningfully between
21myself and Mr Kussel himself in person which is what this
22is about?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Again, I cannot say, I cannot answer this in the way you
24question because you cannot separate -- maybe others can,
25I cannot -- you cannot separate a person from a special
26movement and you are referring to another movement with
1that is very similar. So a movement is a movement in
2which given persons has a special importance and
3especially in the parallel organization leading persons
4have special importance, and within this parallel
5organization it was Worch and Kussel and one or two
6others, and Worch, both Worchs, organized the meeting
7together with the DNP or NPD leader of this region,
8Dienel, and they asked you to talk at the first, as the
9first and most important of this whole rally. This is
10something different as compared to whatever, AA.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] This is getting very tedious. You say they asked me.
12What evidence do you have for that statement, they asked
13me to speak at this meeting in Halle?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Again one of the central persons asked you.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] One of the people?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Of course, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I now take you to page 146, please? This is
18Mr Jurigen Riga -- this is going to be very brief, I hope
19-- you answer in one line, is there any evidence
20whatsoever of the slightest contact between myself and
21Mr Jurigen Riga, meaningful contact?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not on the list actually, so you need
24not really trouble.
25 MR IRVING: I beg your pardon?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not on the list, I do not think.
1 MR IRVING: Is he not on our list?
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No.
3 MR RAMPTON: No. Do ask about him, I do not mind.
4 MR IRVING: Mr Rampton did ask about him yesterday.
5 MR RAMPTON: No. As a matter of fact, I do not think I did. I
6think I was told, without having asked a question, that he
7was the lawyer, he was the wicked neo-Nazi lawyer or
8something, but I am not sure my memory is right.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is one of the right-wing extremist lawyers, yes, you
10are right.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway he is not on the list.
12 MR IRVING: Not on the list. Very well. Page 147, Wilhelm
13Staglich, but the question I am going to ask is going to
14be for a totally different reason that his Lordship will
15now appreciate. Your first line says: "Previous to 1945,
16the end of World War II, Staglich was part of a flak
17battery stationed for several months in Auschwitz". Will
18you explain what a flak battery is? Is it an
19anti-aircraft gun battery? Is it as part of the air
20defence system of a site?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Was Auschwitz exposed to air raids?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Does this mean to say that at some time previous to 1945
25air defence precautions had been taken at Auschwitz?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Are the building of air raid shelters part of air raid
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know but, yes, yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Thank you very much. Michael Schwierzak, that is the next
5name on the list on the same page, how would you describe
6my contacts so far as they are known to you apart from
7anti-fascist literature with Mr Michael Schwierzak?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He, I think, by the intermediation of Mr Worch invited you
9to speak before his little tiny group, National Offensive,
10down in the southern Germany. This group is part of the
11Kuhnen connection.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, the invitation came from Althans and not
13from Schwierzak? Is that what you are saying by this
14complicated phrase, by the intervention of Mr Althans?
15What did you mean by that?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I thought it was Worch, but correct me.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well ----
18 MR IRVING: Well, I do not think it is very important.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- Mr Irving, I think it would be much more
20helpful if you put what you say were your contacts, if
21any, with Mr Schwierzak.
22 MR IRVING: Well, I thought it would just be helpful if I got a
23straight no from him that this is no evidence of any
24contact between me and Mr Schwierzak.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, there is. There is plenty. That is
26why I am suggesting that you put your case as to whether
1you did or did not have an association with him, and if
2you did what it consisted of.
3 MR IRVING: Thank you, my Lord. My Lord, it is helpful to know
4what questions we need answers for, I think, in this
5case. Will you, please, therefore, answer the question
6suggested by his Lordship, what meaningful contacts did
7I have with Mr Schwierzak, to your knowledge? I insert
8the word "meaningful" as a means of slimming the answer
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I do not think I have got my
11message across at all. The burden of Professor Funke's
12evidence -- I have said this many times -- is that you had
13associations with a number of individuals, including
14Schwierzak, and that those individuals are ----
15 MR IRVING: Extremists.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- in one way or another extremists.
17 MR IRVING: Yes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is his case. Mr Schwierzak is on this
19famous list. He is said to be connected with the National
20Offensive. I do think that it is for you to put to this
21witness what your case is. You know what contacts you had
22or whether you had any contacts with Schwierzak and I,
23therefore, think it is not exactly candid of you to ask
24him what evidence he has got.
25 MR IRVING: Well ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The evidence is set out in tab 13. I know
1what the evidence is, you know what the evidence is, but
2what is your case? That is what the object of
3cross-examination is.
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, we are looking at events that happened 11
5or 12 years ago. These names mean nothing whatsoever to
6me for the most part.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So you are not conscious of having had any
8communication with Schwierzak at all?
9 MR IRVING: And I am perfectly prepared to be educated to the
10contrary if this expert witness knows quite simply off the
11top of his head, "Mr Schwierzak organized 20 meetings for
12you in Munich, do you not remember?"
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is stated here, I mean.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] But he just given an answer which I would have found quite
15acceptable that, apparently, Mr Schwierzak was involved in
16organizing one meeting for a very tiny group called the NO
17which was not an illegal body, had not been banned, am
18I right?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But what is your case, Mr Irving?
20 MR IRVING: That is the case.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it you cannot remember the man and do not
22know him from Adam or not?
23 MR IRVING: That is quite clearly the case.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is? Well, I am afraid I am probably the
25only one in court who did not realize, but I did not
26realise that you were saying that you had no idea who this
1man is.
2 MR IRVING: My Lord, at the beginning of yesterday's evidence,
3your Lordship will remember that I showed the witness a
4list of 6,500 names of people with whom I have had
5meaningful contacts over the last, well, since 1993, if I
6can put it like that, and to remember one single name out
7of that is a fluke, particularly if I have only had one
8meeting organized by him and I was speaking at this time
9at 160 meetings per year. I will just ask this question.
10You say that the NO was a relatively small organization or
11diminutively small organization?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Was it illegal at that time?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Had I any way of knowing that it might sometime be banned?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, you could have.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, I really do not see the point of wasting time on
18Mr Schwierzak.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you corresponded with Mr Schwierzak.
20That is what puzzles me.
21 MR IRVING: Maybe I should look at bundle E sometime and
22refresh my memory.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean we can do it now. It is stated here.
24 MR IRVING: But, I mean, when these bundles are dropped on me
25from a great height as they were on a weekend ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: With that, of course, I am sympathetic.
1 MR IRVING: I am preparing my cross-examination simultaneously
2and running a family and a business.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is stated in the report, it is in your diary, and here
4just you can, it is one page, it is a shortening, a letter
5to Althans stating something about Schwarzik, so you did
6not know the right name at that moment. But then a
7circular by Plaintiff addressed, amongst others, to
8Michael Schwierzak, again in January '92. Then the letter
9Worch to Plaintiff suggesting to Plaintiff that Schwierzak
10might be able to provide two dates in South Germany on
11Plaintiff's tour. Letter, Worch to Plaintiff, assuring
12Plaintiff that Schwierzak can provide two dates outside
13Frauberg. Letter Schwierzak to Plaintiff. Plaintiff
14records speaking at NO meeting outside Stuttgart in
15Singlfingen. Then letter, Plaintiff to Ernst Zundel,
16complaining about NO with good reasons I have to say.
17Then Schwierzak to Plaintiff. That Schwierzak to
19 So it is all out of your disclosure, letters
20Schwierzak to Plaintiff enclosing an article that will
21surely interest you in '95. So it is between '91 and '95
22and it will refresh your memory if you read it.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Professor Funke, if somebody is receiving sometimes 100
24letters a day, right, and if somebody is writing 50
25letters a day, is he likely to remember 10 years later the
26names if the people with whom he has corresponded?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is why we refresh your memory.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] All right. Can I suggest that if I asked that question,
3Mr Schwierzak is a man who played no part whatsoever in my
4political horizon, is that likely, and then I will ask you
5a bit about his alleged extremism which is also going to
6be useful. In other words, let me phrase the question
7differently. If cannot remember the man's name 10 years
8after the event, is it likely he was very important to me
9or to anybody else?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It depends on the structure of your memory, I have to say.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] All right.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. Of course, it can be that you lost the
13memory about this person because ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you tell us what you know about this man's
15extremism? On what do you base the suggestion that he is
16an extremist in the sense as used in this trial?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The National Offensive is quite of the same political
18structure and to have the same ideas like the NL, the
19Nationalist in Hamburg. It is a southern part of this
20neoNational Socialist cadre organizational stuff in the
21early '90ss. You have NO there, you have the NB nearby in
22Bavaria, you have the National Bloc, you have the
23Nationalist, you have the GA, the German Alternative, the
24Deutsche Alternative. These are the various, you know, in
25their language gau.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Gau?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, gau. Yes, it is really the National Socialist, what
2we are talking about.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] What is the evidence that himself had extreme opinions,
4apart from the opinion of your consensus and the social
5sciences, is there any evidence? Did he engage in any
6extremist acts? Did he publish any extreme literature?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh, yes, he did so. Yes, he did so.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Did he write any extremist books? Did he throw pigs into
9other people's gardens or do any of those other extreme
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He did something together with his whole bunch of people,
12and I have to go to the details in looking up what he else
13did aside of this group. But then it cost some time.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you not remember what he did? Was he not very
15important in your memory either?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is as important as -- you know, Schwierzak was ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Totally unimportant, in other words?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] As important as Worch, aside of the leading position he
19got after the death of Kuhnen, as important as Thomas
20Dienel. So they were not important for me because before
21'89 whatsoever were not important, but since they got
22this influence in East Germany to lead violent skinheads
23and took part in the revisionist movement, they got
24important and influenced the people to a high degree. So
25that in the course of these years the death rate of
26foreign peoples rose, the destroying of Jewish cemeteries
1rose, the criminal acts against of right-wing extremists
2rose to a height of 88,000.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Was he prosecuted for any of these actions?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh, they organized that in this cadre, in this way of
5right-wing extremist cadres are doing it ----
6 Q. [Mr Irving] But you do not mention this in your report?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Propagating ideas of extreme nationalist sort and the
9 Q. [Mr Irving] You do not mention any of these prosecutions of
10Mr Schwierzak in your report, do you? You say that he was
11given a suspended sentence for trying to revive an
12organization he had previously set up and which had been
13banned, which appears to be a pretty mild kind of offence
14to me.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I referred, I know, I do not know what I am referring,
16what is in the report, I referred, I know that the NO
17because of this National Socialist ideas was banned in the
18same year, in '92, right, so there is a record on that.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but you tried to give the impression in response to
20my question as to what extremist acts he had committed or
21thoughts he had expressed, you start talking about violent
22acts and murders and so on, and yet when I ask you in
23detail was he prosecuted, then the answer is no?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is, no, I did not say this. It is the very
25organizational capacity of this NO, tiny as it is, it
26instigated hatred against foreigners, it instigated
1anti-Semitism and fuelled these kinds of activities of
2skinheads in that area where he was active.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] What evidence do you have for these statements or are you
4just saying it for the court at present? Do you have any
5evidence to back up these allegations?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, it is the reasoning of the Minister of Interior to
7ban this group, it is the reasoning ----
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that the Federal Ministry for the Interior or the
9Bavarian Ministry of the Interior?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is the Federal Minister of Interiors, so far I recall.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that a Socialist Minister?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I think it was at that time Manfred Kanter who was a
13more right-winger within the central political scenery.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] So in response to my question as to whether you know
15anything in detail that Mr Schwierzak has done, you come
16up with just vague stories about what the NO or the
17right-wing groups to which the NO was associated has done?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it is very decisive.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He founded the NO, so it is not unreasonable
20to suppose that there was a link between what the NO did
21and Mr Dienel -- and Mr ----
22 MR IRVING: Was the NO to which I spoke at any time an illegal
23or banned organization? We have had that.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The NO, yes, it was, it get banned end of '92, as I said.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] When did I speak to it, Professor Funke?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Before.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] The year before that, right?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I know that and I said it. I did not say anything
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Am I right in saying that you find difficulty in
5remembering any details at all about Mr Schwierzak, any
6concrete, meaningful details apart from vague
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is not a vague association to know that he is the
9leading person of this association, NO.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] But never prosecuted for any illegal acts?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not personally so far.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, thank you. My Lord, he is the last person on the
13list with whom I have not dealt. We have knocked out all
14the names, effectively, except for some of the bigger
15names. Karl Philipp who is very little on ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, do not make a speech now. I mean, if
17that concludes your cross-examination?
18 MR IRVING: I only want to say one more thing in winding up.
19Am I right in saying the situation in Germany is far more
20sensitive than it is in other countries as a result of the
21Second World War and the Holocaust, the political
22situation is more sensitive, is it not?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Because of several reasons, if I may answer that in that
24way? The main reason for the given period that is of
25interest with respect to the libel act is that at that
26period some groupings converted, and in the same period we
1had converted, came nearer to each other, converged --
2excuse me, I got it wrong yesterday, converged -- and this
3is especially the case for parts of the revisionist
4movement and parts of the neoNational Socialist movement
5and parts of the old traditional right-wing extremist
6movement, and this took place in a sensitive moment of
7history of postwar Germany in which the East German part
8has to be included, integrated, what-have-you, and in that
9period of time there was a lot of rage, a lot of vacuum of
10political order, so they could spread their influence, and
11because of that it was very sensitive, especially also to
12the authorities that were led at that time by the central,
13by the CDU FDP led government, and ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Now let me ask you this question ----
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- this is one dimension of the sensitivity. The other
16is, of course, you refer to the renewal, the necessity of
17the renewal, of the liberal democracy and the
18constitutional law system, after the total distortion of
19all the laws we had during the Nazi period.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Now, we did not have these problems in the non-Germany
21countries, did we?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the?
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Outside Germany, we did not have these sensitive problems,
24did we?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In different ways, of course, but not in that way.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Let me explain what I am getting at.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There is always a specific to it and this is the
2specificity with respect to Germany.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Would I be right, therefore, in saying that something
4described or defined as right-wing extremism in a
5sensitive country like Germany would merely be shrugged
6off in England and the United States where we are much
7more robust?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not, I would not say this, because if you would have
9a situation, let us say, in a given country where within
10three years 70 people were murdered by right-wing
11extremists at their activities, then there would be a
12sensitive situation for any liberal democracy in the
13world, I think.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] But we do not have that situation outside Germany, do we?
15We do not have that situation?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We have that situation, yes, of course, in the course of
17this century, of course.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] But not in England? In England we do not have -- if
19somebody is described as a right-wing extremist in
20Germany, it has a definite kind of echo or resonance.
21People are more likely to be described as right-wing
22extremists in Germany where the situation is so sensitive
23than in England or America where we do not have this
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I am not so, I have not the same expertise on the English
26situation, but what I know is that there were not 70
1people in the early '90s murdered, and the Libel Act is
2referring to the dangerousness of Holocaust deniers in a
3given moment of time in a given country. So in that sense
4it is specific, but it would have been also specific for a
5country that had this same amount of violence.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Thank you. No further questions.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I ask you one question before, if I may,
8Mr Rampton? It is about Thomas Dienel, because I do not
9remember any evidence about why you say there was an
10association between him and Mr Irving. Can you remember
11off the top of your head?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, just, please, I may remind you to the Halle event,
13where Thomas Dienel was one of the main organizer, aside
14from Christian Worch, this blond haired --
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Young --
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- middle aged, 40, let us say, young, person, who was on
17the podium and shouted after the -- so far as I recall,
18yes, after the end of the speech of David Irving, against,
19you know, criminal foreigners.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] -- I know. Yes, thank you, I am afraid I had --
21 MR RAMPTON: I think he was there at least once.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Beginning and the end, I think.
23 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He was before, also, if you look closely in end.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] He spoke?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He spoke before and after.
1 MR IRVING: Can I just ask two questions?
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course, you can.
3 MR IRVING: That is your only evidence for Mr Dienel being
4involved in organizing the Halle function, is it not, that
5he was there and that he spoke; do you have any
6documentary evidence? Did he sign any posters or
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] How was it to be signed? It was said in the letters that
9went around to prepare this and to organize this meeting
10that Dienel was the core organizer, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Which letters are these?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We have to look in my report, it is stated there.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Were any of these letters sent to me before the meeting?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I said it yesterday already that you got the
15invitation by Uschi Worch.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] On the evening before?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. This is clear because you had, according to your
18diary, the idea to go to a different place.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] And you accept that none of the video footage we saw, none
20of the visual material that we saw shows me at any time
21together with Mr Dienel?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean --
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes or no?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- the video did not show you. It did not show that,
25because Dienel went downstage just so far as the video is
26concerned, when you went up, but you have heard him, I am
1sure, because you could not leave the scene without air
2flight as quick as he started his speech.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, so I am clear what your case is,
4you are putting to this witness that the only connection
5with Dienel is that one meeting at Halle and you have no
6idea he was going to be there, and otherwise you have
7never had any dealings with him face to face, or in
8writing or anything of that kind?
9 MR IRVING: Very definitely, my Lord, and in this case your
10Lordship will see my reaction yesterday, I was totally
11astonished at any suggestion to the opposite.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe that.
13 MR IRVING: I think it is similar to the Thistle case (?)
14because I am in the same city, on the same day therefore I
15must have known them, shaken hands and given them a bear
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very clear, thank you.
18 MR RAMPTON: Yes, in fact the correct running order was, my
19Lord, Worch introduces Irving, Irving mounts the podium
20and join Dienel and Worch, speaks for a page. Worch then
21speaks for quarter a page and introduces Dienel, who then
22does his bit.
23 MR IRVING: We might have to see that video again.
24 MR RAMPTON: I am sure we shall have to see to again, no
25question. I shall show it again in closing this case.
26 < Re-examined by MR RAMPTON Q.C.
1 Can I ask you to expand on some of the last
2evidence you gave, Professor Funke, can I put my question
3in this way. You have spoken of the danger of right-wing,
4extreme, or neo-fascist, neo-Nazi rabble rousers going and
5speaking in some areas of Germany, particularly those that
6have a sensitive economic and social context, like former
7East Germany. If I am a rabble rouser, and I go to a poor
8district of a place like Halle, and I address an audience
9of skinheads, let us say, or partly of skinheads, on, for
10example, I am not saying this happened on this occasion,
11Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism; does that have any
12impact, in your judgment, from your knowledge of this area
13of life in Germany? Does that have any forward impact on
14attitudes generally towards, for example, auslander?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There are insider reports from people who were in this
16scene and then left the scene that showed very decisively
17exactly that, that they need a kind of encouragement, if
18I may say so, to this direction, and that they have
19to encourage each other, to do the deeds they are doing
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] We can be fairly banal, trite about this, can we not,
22would you describe Hitler or Goebbels as rabble rousers
23when they spoke?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] So far as you know, did they ever wield a club or a gun
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, they wore nice clothes, for example. Sometimes they
2also appeared in various kinds of Nazi, like Nazis
3uniforms, so it depends on the occasion.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] But they did not stand on the edge of pits in the East and
5machine gun Jews, did they, Hitler and Goebbels
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Can you translate that.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there was a misunderstanding. You
9asked about clubs or guns and you got an answer about
11 MR RAMPTON: I think it was an answer, yes, they had nice
12uniforms, but, no, they did not shoot people.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It could have been an answer.
14 MR RAMPTON: Is that right?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again.
16 MR RAMPTON: Yes, they had nice uniforms, but, no, they did not
17shoot people?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, not in this period, in this stagings, of course, not.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] I mean themselves personally? They shot themselves at the
20end, I know that?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far we know not.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] So far as we know.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can we go back a bit, please, and do you have your report
25there? I want to deal, if I may, with Mr Irving's
26repeated suggestion that he has never spoken of the
1non-existence of gas chambers except in terms of
2Auschwitz, and Auschwitz alone. So I would like you to
3look at some material. At the top of page 55 you quote in
4English from an interview with Mr Irving reported in a
5magazine called Code for December 1989, yes?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] I think we find that article in H5.1(i) if you like at
8page 324?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is the one we looked at before.
10 MR RAMPTON: Yes, but I want to ask about a different part.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] H5 and then?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] H5(i).
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] I would like you to look at the bottom of the first
15column, page 324, sorry, you are quite right.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] 54 of the actual magazine.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] You have got it. Under the heading (German spoken) yes?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Excuse my German. Now, could you just read to yourself,
22not out loud, from "journalist" down to the end of first
23quote for Mr Irving?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Again, with the word (German spoken) and tell us what it
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The journalist refers to eyewitnesses, that especially in
2the last days of war there should have been the gassing
3very intense before the liberation of the camp. Irving
4answers according to the official version of history, in
5October 1944, the gassing ended and then he adds: But why
6scientific researches are not taken into account of
7"laborisgeschaft" (?).
8 MR IRVING: Forensic?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Forensic, right, and then the next sentence is: The result
10of this forensic research is clear. There were no mass --
11 MR RAMPTON: Killings?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- killings by poison gas.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you. You take that to be a general statement or
14specific to Auschwitz?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is related, so far I gather it, to the forensic
16researches, but the sentence itself says as (German
17spoken), there were no mass killings by poison gas.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] So it might be related to the forensic, so-called forensic
19examinations, done by Professor Leuchter at Auschwitz
20might it, do you think?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, thank you. Now I want you to look at another one.
23Pages 63 to 64.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Of my report?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, please. This recites as we realized as we were going
26through it, paragraph 5.3.13.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Recites something that Mr Irving said at a place called
3Moers; where is Moers?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is in the western part of Germany.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] On 9th March 1990, could the witness see, well, let me
6please just first read how you translate it at the bottom
7of page 63 and the top of page 64. There is a reference
8to Auschwitz, Mr Irving says: But the dummies are still
9standing in Auschwitz because the German government has no
10sway there and understandably that is a problem for you,
11that you have a government in Bonn that allows its own
12people to be defamed by all countries of the world,
13although in the meantime it has cried out that these
14things in Auschwitz and probably in Mydanik, Treblinka and
15in other so-called extermination camps in the East are all
16dummies"; who made that translation? Who made that
17translation? The German is at the bottom of the page,
18footnote 229, do you know who made that translation?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, can you look at the German at the bottom of the page
21in footnote 229. It is a video cassette.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, video cassette, 187, David Irving in Moers.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] There cannot be any dispute about the German unless it has
24been mistranscribed. The sentence begins (German spoken)
25have you got that in a footnote?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you read the German, please, to yourself?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] To the end of sentence.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] And tell me whether you think, or perhaps with the help of
6the interpreter, tell me whether you think that that is a
7fair -- what the English says is a fair version of what
8the German says.
9 THE INTERPRETER: We are just comparing the two.
10 MR RAMPTON: Yes, please.
11 THE INTERPRETER: I would say it should be added "they are all
12nothing but dummies".
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] Nothing but?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, it is not translated literally.
15 MR IRVING: All just dummies.
16 MR RAMPTON: Just dummies?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And the things --
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] All just dummies?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] -- yes, the things in Auschwitz and probably you also in
20Mydanik Treblinka and in the other death camps.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, extermination camps?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So-called.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] So-called?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the East, all just dummies.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Mock ups, fakes, dummies. Thank you very much.
26Then we go back to page 61, if we may, paragraph
15.3.7, in his report on Irving's court appearance Philip
2wrote: In his statement the researcher of contemporary
3history, Irving, when into the Leuchter report and
4reaffirmed his view according to which it was not
5possible to there to have been gas chambers for killing
6people in Auschwitz, Birkenhau or Mydarnik".
7 Mr Irving was invited by the judge to challenge
8that statement, the question he did not. The question I
9have of you, have you any reason to doubt that that is an
10accurate report of what Mr Irving said?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have no question about that.
12 MR IRVING: My Lord, your Lordship's invitation did not refer
13to that statement, it was to another one.
14 MR RAMPTON: Could the witness please be given file K3.
15 MR IRVING: My Lord, is it accepted that was not a statement
16that was challenged?
17 MR RAMPTON: I do not know.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, we certainly looked at that, and to be
19honest I actually cannot remember.
20 MR RAMPTON: No, I cannot either, but that was my note.
21 MR IRVING: I do not want it to go in the transcript that I
22allowed that -- specifically allowed --
23 MR RAMPTON: Well, we can see from the transcript whether it
24was or it was not.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The transcript will tell us what has happened
1 MR IRVING: There is a difference between my, for various
2reasons not having wanted to slow up the
3cross-examination, picking on paragraph after paragraph,
4and specifically to declining an invitation to comment on
5a paragraph.
6 MR RAMPTON: Does your Lordship have K3 in court?
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I do.
8 MR RAMPTON: Tab 12, please.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Thank you. Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] If you look at the beginning of tab 12, this is an
11interview in English between somebody called Roley Levin.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] And Mr Irving, unedited this interview, so we need not
14worry about that, dated 28th November '91, and Mr Levin
15starts off by saying: You made a very powerful speech
16tonight, what is the message you are trying to get
17across? I am sorry, what is the message you are trying to
18get across to an audience of Germans like this". So it
19looks as though, does it not, it is a reference to some
20speech that has been made in Germany. Do you happen to
21know which speech it was that it is referring to at this
22date? I could not trace it in the --
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] -- in the material I have got.
25 MR IRVING: Could I have a copy of this while we are doing
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you not got K3? You have not brought it
2with you.
3 MR RAMPTON: Certainly, you should have that.
4 MR IRVING: What is the reference again?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: K3, tab 12. It is a television programme, is
6it, that is the date of the television programme?
7 MR RAMPTON: That is the date of the interview perhaps or
8television programme, but what Miss Rogers is suggesting,
9I bet she is right, the film crew apparently followed
10Mr Irving round during the Halle period, which was on the
119th, and probably did an interview with him that same day.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The problem with that is the speech was
13not --
14 MR RAMPTON: (Pause while counsel confer) She knows far more
15than I do.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Halle was in the middle of the day, was it
18 MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is right, and apparently his speech was
19on 6th and 7th November as well.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right, well, it may not matter anyway.
21 MR RAMPTON: It may not matter very much, but what I am anxious
22to ----
23 THE WITNESS: The NPD meeting in Hamburg of the 7th November?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, that is right, that is it?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe that is it.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] All I am anxious to establish is that this is a reference
1to what Mr Irving said in Germany, which apparently it is,
2now can you turn to page 5, you will find that in small
3print at the top right hand corner of the page.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] I will start, if I may, with the second quote from
6Mr Levin it is: One of your themes when you talk to an
7audience like this is that the Holocaust never happened,
8that the gas chambers were a fiction. Can we pause
9there. Assuming that records the theme, or one of the
10themes that Mr Irving dealt with on this occasion in
11Hamburg, do you have any knowledge of the content of that
12speech beyond what we find in this interview?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right. Irving: Well, those are two separate things.
15I mean by the Holocaust, do you mean the gas chambers? If
16by the Holocaust, which is this rather unpleasant kind of
17Madison Avenue image that the Jewish community have
18developed, the Holocaust with a capital H, you imagine
19that you are going to see the letter R after it as kind
20registered trademark. I am not allowed to use the word
21Holocaust in my books to describe any other tragedy. Now
22my editors say, no, that is reserved for what happened to
23the Jews.
24 Levin: But you told your audience tonight that
25the gas chambers [plural], were a fiction:
26 Irving: Oh, yes, the gas chambers are a very
1clear piece of propaganda, that we British very cunningly,
2cunningly cannived at and contrived during World War II
3and that is my considered opinion as a British historian
4and I think in two, two or three years people will accept
5you I am right again.
6 Levin: The idea of the gas chambers was invented
7by the British during the war, and then the so-called gas
8chambers at -- again he uses the plural that perhaps not
9his fault at Auschwitz were built by the Poles after the
10war in order to deceive people.
11 MR IRVING: Can you read the next paragraph, please.
12 MR RAMPTON: I am going to read the next three paragraphs,
13actually: "Certainly the gas chamber [single] that is
14shown to tourists in Poland now in Auschwitz is built by
15the Polish government after the war and the director of
16the Auschwitz museum and director of Auschwitz museum
17archives, Dr Piegel (?), has admitted this in private
18talks with other historians that it is in fact a fake."
19I am not sure that quite fair on Dr Piegel.
20 MR IRVING: Just leave it as it is without any interspersed
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Quite right.
23 MR RAMPTON: "Levin: It is important to you to get across to a
24German audience like this that people are told lies about
25the gas chambers [plural] or they never really happened.
26I prefer, says David Irving, I prefer the word legends.
1In fact, it is in fact a lie. Propaganda is basically
2lying. What is is now going around is not a lie, it is a
3legend. There is a difference. A legend is something
4that people, innocent and ordinary people believe and in
5turn retell to other innocent and ordinary people."
6 Professor Funke, are you aware of any evidence
7that the whole gas chamber story, the gas chambers,
8plural, were nothing more then a clever piece of
9propaganda that the British invented?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There is no evidence for that.
11 MR IRVING: Can he be asked if he is aware of any evidence that
12what is shown to the tourists is a fake or
14 MR RAMPTON: That is common ground, Mr Irving, we all know that
15it is a reconstruction, the Stammlager gas chamber at
16Auschwitz, that never been in contention.
17 MR IRVING: Never been in contention?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Never been in contention, the only only
19question is whether --
20 MR RAMPTON: If Mr Irving had read Professor van Pelt's report
21properly he would have understood that it was never in
22contention --
23 MR IRVING: My Lord, I was fined $20,000 for saying that, that
24is the contention in my book.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Honestly, I attach no importance, I am
26afraid, it must be painful for you, but it is not relevant
1to my task that you were fined, and I know perfectly well
2what was constructed at Auschwitz, and, personally, as
3I have told you before, and I will say it again, I see
4nothing remotely objectionable. But to say that they are
5all dummies seems to me to be different matter altogther.
6 MR RAMPTON: Yes and all invention of British propaganda, that
7is what Mr Rampton --
8 MR IRVING: I am answering in terms here, one gas chamber --
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can make that comment later on, this is
10re-examination, so do not --
11 MR IRVING: If I can comment later on.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, please.
13 MR RAMPTON: Now one of the things that you were cross-examined
14about, Professor Funke, is to be found at page 69 of your
15report. Again, I do not remember offhand whether or not
16this was challenged, in paragraph 5.3.27.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Just a second.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] So sorry, you will need to keep that file K3 for just a
19moment. We need page 69 of your report.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes I have both. Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Before you go to the indented quotation there is some
22German in square brackets (German spoken); yes?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Above that you it is translated at: "The letter was
25headed with a quote from Irving, hundreds of millions of
26honest, intelligent people are being duped by extremely
1financially strong and brilliantly made postwar
3 Can you turn, please, back to tab 5 of K3 and to
4page 20, I think it is.
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] K3?
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Same blue file.
8 MR RAMPTON: K3 tab 5, it is the speech in Moers and this time
9it is in English?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, just a second.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Tab 5, page 20, the bottom of the page. Bearing in mind
12as you look at this what we just read in your report on
13page 69, which you attributed Mr Irving, we see this, and
14this is Mr Irving speaking, this is his speech at Moers on
159th March 1990.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] In the middle of the page there is a line which
18begins "and this Holocaust religion"; do you see that?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] He says this: "In this Holocaust religion is gaining
21credence in the meantime, has hundreds of millions of
22credible and decent people, millions of Jews amongst them,
23firmly believing that 6 million of their co-religionists
24were murdered and no one is asking them the important
25question: How come there are so many millions of Jews
26again if so many millions of them are exterminated? No
1one asks themselves that question because you simply do
2not question a religion, it is a sort of blasphemy." Do
3you see any resonance or similarity between what Mr Irving
4there said and what he said in the middle of page 69 of
5your report?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh, yes. It is a kind of attacking what he calls a
7legend, or what he may call also a lie, that became a
8religion, so-called religion, of millions of honest
9people. So it is a kind of way of thinking that because
10he says the essence of the Holocaust is a lie, and the
11people do not believe that it is a lie, but it is the
12truth, this truth is a religion.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] The whole story?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The whole story.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] The whole story --
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The whole history of the Holocaust is a religion. They
17believe in, although it is not true in the essence, and
18this goes with a lot of -- and to say this is a kind of
19blasphemy is, of course, a very cynical reference, cynical
20sentence to those who really survived, and still are
21living, and, of course, to those who died by this mass
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] -- it is that, that sort of sentiment, is it, which German
24law does not permit, the expression of that kind of
25sentiment in public which German law forbids?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, this is right. It was done again, and again it was a
1bit sharpened in the 1980s. It was a bit changed in the
2middle of 1990s because of the experience of late 1990s
3and the early 1990s, and the people in Germany, the
4authorities in Germany, are very aware of what these kinds
5of sayings meant to people who still or have lived at that
6periods of time as survivors. One of them is the famous
7Heinz Kaminsky of the Jewish community in Berlin, who
8asked, because of this kind of sorrow, because of this
9kind of cynicism that they, the Jews in Germany after 1945
10experienced, to sharpen a bit these laws, as a kind of
11acknowledgment that it happened.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Sorry, carry on.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] As a kind of acknowledgment, recognition.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To these people that had happened, that the German people,
16the German public, is aware that this is done by German
17authorities between 1933 and 1945, and what you can call
18is a kind of second anti-Semitism is exactly to attack
19this experience of those who survived. This is again a
20very aggressive behaviour to those.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is that one that I think you told us when you first
22started giving evidence, that one is one of the strands or
23elements in right-wing neo-Nazi policy, ideology,
24statement in Germany?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is at the core. For example, at even DVU
26presentation of Otto Butz, Hoax of the Century, that with
1this presentation it goes very aggressive behaviour in
2this newspapers against all representatives, all sorts,
3all kinds of representatives of the Jewish community in
4these days. So we have a combination of this kind of
5denial of the memory, not only the denial of the Holocaust
6itself, but the memory of those survived, with the alleged
7financial and political mysterious strategies of the
8Jewish community after 1945. So you have a combination of
9the old racist anti-Semitism of the years before 1945,
10used now as a kind of second anti-Semitism, to attack the
11people who survived in Germany and who are, as Jewish
12community or Jewish individuals still, you know, nowadays
13in the public.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, well, now Mr Irving in this connection, and what
15I have to ask next flows directly from your last answer,
16Mr Irving put it to you that he did not break the law when
17he was in Germany. He went out of his way to keep on the
18right side of the law, I am paraphrasing; do you remember
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Would you look at at page 106 of your report, please?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] You write in the third line: "In Canada in October 1991
24Irving told his audience that the Bavarian Ministry of
25Justice whom Irving described in the same speech as
26the 'extended arm" of 'you know who'", and then Funke puts
1in brackets, "i.e. the Jewish people". Do you have any
2reason to revise that parenthesis Professor Funke, the
3Jewish people?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I have not.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] No. Then comes: "Wanted to talk to me about certain
6things I have done and said in Germany. Well, what I do
7and say in Germany unfortunately does violate the law in
8Germany. I am well aware of that, and I go round from
9meeting place to meeting place in Germany now quite
10voluntarily sticking my neck out, because Germany is one
11of the most difficult places in the world to speak now".
12 Professor Funke, speak about what, is my
13question? About what is it difficult to speak in Germany
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, especially about his revised version of the Holocaust
16Nazi period.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] One small point in passing. Mr Irving was putting it to
18you that the Munich city authorities had done something or
19other, and he used the form of words: "The Munich city
20authorities of the German Reich"?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I heard that.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] I know you did and you showed some surprise. You said "of
23what?", and he said, "of the German Reich". Now why did
24you show surprise?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Because the German Reich is a clear defined term in
26post-Nazi Germany, to the Nazi Reich, not to any sort
1of ----
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There has never been a fourth Reich?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Up to now not.
4 MR IRVING: The actual quotation was that the Munich city
5authorities have succeeded in getting my banned from the
6entire German Reich.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I think you are slightly missing --
8well, I doubt whether they put it that way -- I think you
9are missing the point. I did notice that Professor Funke
10was surprised.
11 MR IRVING: It was meant to be sarcastic of course.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was it right?
13 MR RAMPTON: Oh was it? Very well. I will leave it in that
14condition, if I may.
15 MR IRVING: I thought an expert in sarcasm would recognise
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will move on.
18 MR RAMPTON: I have to say I thought it a slip of the tongue.
19It leads to my next question, which is this. It is a
20series of questions, Professor Funke. You have told us
21that these neo-Nazi groups, right-wing extremists, there
22was a convergence in the late 80s, early 90s?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Of which the Wahrheit macht Frei event at Munich in 1990
25was a notable sort of a marker. Have I got that right?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] You told us that anti-Semitism is one of the notable
2features of this convergence?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] Of which obviously a feature is Holocaust denial. You
5have explained that too. Mr Irving said, and you agreed
6with him, that when he goes to Germany he does not talk
7only about Holocaust denial, yes?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can I ask you whether any of the following things form
10any, from your knowledge of this topic, this field, any of
11the following things form any part of right-wing extreme
12or neo-Nazi policy or ideology. First, to try to
13absolve -- do you know that word, excuse -- excuse the
14Nazis of blame for the outbreak of the Second World War,
15is that part of it or not?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is the question of so-called allein Schuld.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Which is?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Exclusive guilt.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
22 MR RAMPTON: Do they have a tendency at all to try to blame
23Winston Churchill for the outbreak of war?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, can I interrupt because I am not
25quite sure what you are asking. You are asking about
26topics which do not come within the umbrella of Holocaust
2 MR RAMPTON: It has an end result.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. Yes, of course they questioned the role of Churchill
4to degree that they attack the role of, you know, reacting
5to the aggression that was done by the Hitler regime in
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do they tend in any way to focus rather on so-called
8allied atrocities or war crimes such as the bombing of
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There is often the case that there is a kind of
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, they try to make a balance?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To minimise the own atrocities.
14 THE INTERPRETER: They are setting one off against the other.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
16 MR RAMPTON: What I in this court have called a false
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, it is criticised, this kind of revisionists
19historians are criticised exactly with this kind of
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do they have any tendency to glorify what they see as Nazi
22war heroes?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is very much the case, if I go through the 70s
24already and the 80s you have always this kind of appraisal
25of war heroes, of Judet, of Ruddell, of Dall, of Rommel,
26those who are identified with the Nazi cause and those who
1are not identified but.
2 THE INTERPRETER: "Praise" rather than "appraisal".
3 MR RAMPTON: Do they include General Remer in this galaxy of
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is one of the most accepted heroes in that camp,
6because, as you may recall, of his courage to crush down
7the coup, the attempt of the resistance fighters within
8the Army of 20th July, 44, around Stuffenberg, Gurdella
9and others.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do they ever speak of the prospects of establishing a
11greater Germany?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Of course we did not tackle that too much. This is of
13course the centre of their belief system, that they have
14to renew a greater Germany. We more addressed the
15attention to the so-called second revolution of the Kuhnen
16connection, but the broader perspective is of course to
17build a new or greater Germany that extends the borders of
18Germany now that are internationally accepted.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do they propose what the ethnic or racial composition of
20this greater Germany will be?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They include normally so-called ethnic Germans, Germans by
22ethnic dissent, or they even say by Aryan race dissent, if
23it is possible to say by Aryan race dissent.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] In which geographical direction do they tend to see this
25expansion, Westwards, Eastwards, South, North?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Especially to the East, to the Northeast, to the East and
1to a degree to the Southeast.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] To include what, for example, the parts of the Reich that
3were formed after the invasion of Poland?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, this is the main cause. This has always have been
5the cause in the right-wing circles and beyond in the
6right-wing extremist circles to attack the borderline in
7the ----
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] The Odanisa(?) Line we call it.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] How do you call it?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] The Odanisa line.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Finally this. Do they ever make a claim or a proposal
13that the Germans should be compensated, for example, by
14the Poles, for the land which the Poles have occupied
15since the end of the war?
16 MR IRVING: I cannot really see the point of all this.
17 MR RAMPTON: You will in a moment.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is fair.
19 MR RAMPTON: You will in a moment.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, they say this is almost not so densely populated
21areas, so they can move or they try to rebuild German
22ethnic circles, and one of these people we are talking
23about were very active to do so in the Kalingrad area, for
24example, but also in the Baltic states, and especially in
25Silesia and in West Prussia, in former Silesia I have to
26say, in the West part of Poland.
1 MR RAMPTON: Thank you very much. Now I think I would like you
2to look at a document, will you please. My Lord, this is
3in RWE at tab 7, page 81. It is part of the Frey
4section. What I am going to do, if I may, is hand up a
5clip containing the German and an English translation of
6the relevant part, the first part of the German.
7 MR IRVING: My Lord, I am not sure this is proper material for
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know what it is yet.
10 MR RAMPTON: This is an Irving document.
11 MR IRVING: That does not make it necessarily proper material
12for re-examination.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is true. Let us hear what it is and
14then we can make up ----
15 MR RAMPTON: It arises directly out of Mr Irving's suggestion
16that he does not talk only about Holocaust denial when he
17is Germany.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If it does that seems to me to be legitimate.
19 MR IRVING: I have no objection.
20 MR RAMPTON: Of course your Lordship will remember that our
21case is not simply that Mr Irving is a racist and an
22anti-Semite, but that he is a right-wing extremist with
23sympathies, deep sympathies for the Nazi regime. This is
24directly relevant to that. Have you seen this before,
25Professor Funke? Look at the German document.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh, yes I saw.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it the top page a translation of what
2comes later?
3 MR RAMPTON: Yes, the top page takes us down to -- I must use
4my own copy otherwise I get lost.
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There is a red line somewhere.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] The red line is mine. Can I have mine back. Does the
7English, Dr Funke, take us down to the words on the first
8page of the German: (German spoken - document not
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right. I will read the entire ----
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Your red line.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] My read line, yes. That is right. First of all, please,
14it is sent by in Irving from Keywest in Florida to Dr Frey
15and to his lawyer, Dr Von Spranger, yes?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] One sees that it is dated 30th January 1991.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Frey is the publisher, is that right?
19 MR RAMPTON: It is what?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is Frey publisher?
21 MR RAMPTON: No, Frey is the head of the DVU.
22 MR IRVING: He is also a publisher.
23 MR RAMPTON: He may also be a publisher but that is by the way
24for present purposes. Dr Spranger I think is lawyer both
25for Mr Irving and for Christian Worch.
26 MR IRVING: My Lord, will you let me re-cross on this?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a new document and I will, yes.
2 MR RAMPTON: Yes. Is there any significance in the date, do
3you think, Professor Funke, of 30th January?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the circumstances of the court issue, of course, it is
5a day when Adolf Hitler got into power in 1933.
6 MR IRVING: I do not see the date. Where is the date?
7 MR RAMPTON: The 30th January 1991.
8 MR IRVING: The letter is dated?
9 MR RAMPTON: Yes, 30th January 1991. The temperature, in which
10we may be interested, was 28 degrees centigrade or
11Celsius, perhaps that does not matter. We have left that
12off the translation.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, you have not, you have just put it on the
14next line.
15 MR RAMPTON: Sorry. I do not know what the message was to
16which this was a reply, but plainly, you may think,
17Dr Funke, it is what one might call a scenario draft,
18whatever you call it, for a speech, because what the third
19line says in English is, or an article it might be, I do
20not know: "The topic will be Germany's new role as great
21power", is that right?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] If you want to follow in German, please do, beginning:
24"I come late but honestly. Furthermore, I intend" --
25this is not supposed to be literary, so Mr Irving may not
26like it -- "Furthermore, I intend initially to point to my
1prophecy of 3.10.89!" Why, in your view, Dr Funke, the
2exclamation mark behind the date?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Because a year later there was a formal unification act at
43rd October '90. Maybe this is the reason.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Am I right that Adolf Hitler made a speech in the
6Reichstag, a rather famous speech, on 30th January 1939?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh, yes.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] And did he in that speech repeat what he had said on the
93rd October 1989 -- I mean ----
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, let us start again. In 1938?
12 MR IRVING: I hope it gets better than this.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, Mr Irving.
14 MR RAMPTON: Well, I think it does, if I may say so.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I hope so.
16 MR RAMPTON: Start again. There was a famous speech by Adolf
17Hitler on 30th January 1939 in the Reichstag?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Did he in that speech repeat something he had said on 3rd
20October 1938?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He referred to if there is a war then this will cause much
22damage to the Jews.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is it unfair in the light of these dates to see Mr Irving
24standing in one of those smart Nazi uniforms while he
25makes this prophecy?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we will move on.
1 MR RAMPTON: I will go on. I want to be serious now.
2 MR IRVING: In view of the fact that I have hurried through my
3own cross-examination in order to make space for
4re-examination, I am beginning to regret it.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on anyway.
6 MR RAMPTON: "Made at a press conference in Berlin, namely that
7Germany would be reunited within 12 months", and that is a
8prophecy which came true. "My reputation as prophet being
9confirmed, I will allow myself some prognoses for the
10coming five, ten, fifteen years. Within these I see the
11possibility of a conversion of the Austrian economy to
12German marks, a political drawing together of the German
13speaking peoples of Europa" or Europe?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Europe.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] "The emergence of a German economic community with an
16incredible potential for the German mark within the next
17ten years, with the possibility of gradually outplaying
18the EEC. Germany would use this economic power in order
19to help the backward countries in the East of Europe,
20therefore expand a kind of German empire", "imperium"
21I think is the word?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] "In the East. The German economic hegemony would then, in
24the course of ten to twenty years, extend to Poland, the
25Ukraine, White Russia and the original German sphere of
26interest the Baltic States. Within the framework of a
1just settlement with Warsaw, in which the partial
2repayment of the Polish debts should play a not
3insignificant role, it would result in a return of the
4German Eastern territories, only sparsely settled by Poles
5anyway. In the framework of a partnership with the Russia
6people, but mind you not the criminal Soviet
7government" -- January 1991? Well, never mind. "It would
8also result in a blossoming of the Russian economy and a
9return of Kalingrad and Northeast Prussia to Germany. In
10this context the events in Latvia play a role that can
11barely be overestimated".
12 Assume, if you will, Dr Funke for the moment
13that that was going to form the topic of an article or a
14speech amongst one of these right-wing groups in Germany,
15how do you calculate its likely popularity?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean because of the subtle strategical tone in this
17piece, it may be perceived as a kind of authoritative
18speech to this audience, because what is done in this
19piece is to take the economic strategies, the economic
20widening of the influence of the German mark area, to get
21to a political resettling of borders and this is the point
22that people of that kind of camp are interested in, you
23know, to re-arrange the borders in Eastern and near
24Eastern, central East Europe, and using conflicts between
25the ethnics, different ethnics with respect to the German
26ethnic interests or resettling aspects. So this is to the
1core of those activism of right-wingers in the early 90s.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Then I will in the light of that answer show you, if
3I may, the Halle transcript. I am afraid here we have not
4had time to transcribe the German, but we have translated
5it directly off the tape on to the page, which clever
6people can do.
7 MR IRVING: Is this my transcript or your transcript?
8 MR RAMPTON: No, this is one we did last night directly from
9the tape. I have already said.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where are we going to put this, Mr Rampton?
11 MR RAMPTON: It maybe could go no the Worch section of RWE 2
12which is section 11 I think.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If somebody can provide the page?
14 MR RAMPTON: 26A and B.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: 26A, yes.
16 MR RAMPTON: I would like you, Dr Funke, it is was done very
17quickly, I know, we have not got the German, but I would
18like you to look at the bottom of the page seven lines up,
19at the end of line he says: "I as an Englishman", have
20you got that?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] "I as an Englishman must say I am really jealous of what
23will happen to Germany in the next five or ten or fifteen
24years", remember those figures?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Then in brackets applause?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Does the applause in this context for these sorts of
3words, does the applause surprise you or not?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Does it?
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Does the applause surprise you or not?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] "In the next ten years you will get back the
8(unintelligible word) Eastern areas which today
9(unintelligible phrase). You will probably gain the
10financial, the economic hegemony over all the previously
11lost countries of the former Soviet empire. The
12Germans ... apparent cut, there you have to be careful
13because then the foreign countries, then the western
14powers, will do everything to prevent this happening, even
15when today the Federal Chancellor Kohl speaks about
16apparent cut, the future of England can only be secured in
17common friendship with the new Germany. In this sense
18I stand by the parole, we might say the phrase, Germany
19first, cheers and shouts of sieg heil".
20 MR IRVING: "First" is wrong. It is "forward".
21 MR RAMPTON: "Germany forwards". Are you reading on? Then
22Worch makes an appreciative speech. How do you
23characterize, Professor Funke, those kinds of sentiments
24to an audience of this nature?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It plays with this greater Germany feelings of that kind
26of people. Clearly it refers before to the matter of the
1Third Reich, the so-called matter of the Third Reich, to
2Rudolf Hess, a man of peace, who did the peace, according
3to Irving, with England, so then there is a reference to
4the joint, you know, venture he is up to between the white
5England and the white dominated or what have you Germany
6to have a hegemony over the always criticised East, the
7Bolshevik and post-Bolshevik East. It is alluding to the
8former critics to the Soviet empire. There you have again
9these kind of ideas how to manage it to have this greater
10Germany. It includes a kind of implication that this
11cannot be without very intense conflicts with the western
12Allies or Western nations in the whole. So this is a
13phrase that also you have again and again, that there will
14be some kind of conflict, even war, be it internally or be
15it internationally, and here you have a kind of subtle
16hint that they will do it, the bigger Germany, the greater
17German activists will do it, and it will cause conflicts
18with the Western nations. I have to say as a political
19scientist that of course the border thing in Europe of 89
20follows, is one of the most debated and dangerous things
21we have, and this is true, as you know, also for the last
22century. Gottfried Kussel, for example, said in this very
23Halle, you know, meeting just before this event happened
24that, if it is necessary, I do not want it, but if it is
25necessary, we will have an internal war; we will have a
26civil war in these countries, and as an Austrian he refers
1to Germany and Austria.
2 So you have this kind of war-mongering or at
3least implicationing of wars in this whole right-wing
4extremist utterances.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you. There is only one other thing about this
6script or transcript, translation. On the second page it
7says: "The future of England can only be secured in common
8friendship with the new Germany." You talked about the
9white England. Am I right, correct me if my history is
10wrong, did Hitler have an idea that England was the
11repository of some kind of pure Aryan race with whom he
12would like to be friends?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, it was always his wavering not to be faced with a war
14with Great Britain, and in that sense these kind of white
15Aryan feelings are widespread also during the Nazi period
16and especially Hitler himself.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Just before we leave this document which representing
18Mr Irving's words we think in Halle in 1991, just look at
19the top of the page. In the light of the answers you gave
20earlier, well, we start at the top of Mr Irving's speech:
21"My dear Germans, I have known you for 30 years since
22I worked here for a year as steelworker in West Germany,
23and I as the first historian in the world wrote a book
24about the destruction of the German city, the middle
25German city Dresden, therefore, I have no fear to write
26the truth about what we, the English, committed against
1the German people in terms of war crimes during the Second
2World War. I welcome it." Then there is applause and
3cheers. Does that surprise you, Professor Funke?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, not at all. It shows, especially for these people, a
5clear identification with this kind of greater Germany
6thing, this kind of Nazi past, the past of heroic things,
7whereas, so to speak, those who realize the reasons of the
8more political and military defeat of national socialism,
9they in a way say in different forms, that of course this
10Second World War by Churchill and the Americans, and even
11the Soviets, had to be done to crush Adolf Hitler down.
12This is, so to speak, the alternative level consensus of
13postwar Germany.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Only because of that, just to put another sentence to it,
16only because of this defeat there was a chance to rebuild
17democracy, and that means especially the recognition of
18human dignity of the basic human rights.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you. There is one other document and it is my last
20topic in re-examination, Professor Funke, that I want you
21to look at. You remember that there was quite a lot of
22cross-examination about the meeting in what I call Hagenau
23because it is a French town but what Mr Irving calls
24Hagenau, I would like to show you, if I may, a part
25transcript and part translation, I say "part transcript
26and part translation" because that is all there is we can
1intelligently transcribe. The date of this I think is
2sometime in November 1989 or something like that, 12th
3November 1989, that is right.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is it going to go?
5 MR RAMPTON: It had better go in tab 15 of the second volume,
6my Lord, 18A.
7 MR IRVING: My Lord, these heavily redacted excerpts of dubious
9 MR RAMPTON: They not dubious. They were done by the lady who
10is the interpreter over there. There is nothing the least
11bit dubious about it.
12 MR IRVING: It is the redaction that I am worried about and the
13editing of the cuts.
14 MR RAMPTON: We can take that up later.
15 MR IRVING: I think this is the time it should be taken up.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think that is right.
17 MR IRVING: We do not know what use Mr Rampton is going to make
18of them.
19 MR RAMPTON: If I may ask the Interpreter, this will clear this
20up. Is there anything on the tape which is not in this
22 THE INTERPRETER: This is a full transcript and translation of
23anything that was on the tape and that was audible and
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. At the end we have the whole of the
26tape in German, is that right?
1 THE INTERPRETER: The parts in italics are transcription and
2the non-italic text is the translation of those passages.
3 MR IRVING: My Lord, this is the transcript of the thrice
4redacted tape about which your Lordship was already raised
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think what I am going to do is let
7Mr Rampton carry on, because I suspect it would be
8desirable that Professor Funke's evidence is concludeed
9this evening.
10 MR RAMPTON: Exactly.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you think you have been taken out of
12context, you can revert to this without the need for a
13witness. All right.
14 MR IRVING: With your Lordship's leave I shall remain standing
15in case I wish to object.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think you need to take that course.
17 MR RAMPTON: I will carry on.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Carry on, on that footing that Mr Irving can
19come back.
20 MR RAMPTON: If there is anything he thinks is fishy about this
21or there is more he wants by all means.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not fish. It is just we have not got
23the whole of it.
24 MR RAMPTON: I know.
25 MR IRVING: My Lord, because you rightly objected to the
26introduction of this heavily edited tape yesterday in that
1form, and we agreed to use it on the basis of a rogues
2gallery, and now through the back door they are trying to
3slide this transcript under the door to us ----
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am actually giving you give a bit of an
5indulgence, because I am saying you can come back to this
6if you need to, not this evening, I mean whenever it is
7convenient to you, with the rest that is missing that has
8been redacted.
9 MR RAMPTON: Anything he likes. If I had the whole recording
10of that meeting, nobody would be more delighted than
11I, but I have not. There is no doubt that these people
12are who they are, and there is no doubt that this, amongst
13other things, is what they say either, so far as I know.
14 MR IRVING: The implication is given of course that I am
15present while all these things are being said and putting
16up with it.
17 MR RAMPTON: Most of what is said here is said by Mr Irving and
18it is upon what Mr Irving says ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Lets press on. Mr Irving ----
20 MR RAMPTON: --- that I chiefly rely.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- if you would just bear with Mr Rampton.
22He is going to go through it. You can come back to this
23later if you think it is appropriate. Yes, Mr Rampton.
24 MR RAMPTON: Then there is something about Zundel on the top
25part of the page: "Surprised to encounter my very special
26friend Ernest Zundel", I do know who that was, something
1in French. Translator: "If I had known I was going to
2find Zundel here I would have brought him a present".
3Cut. Then we get speaker and I can tell your Lordship
4this is Zundel. Then the German is transcribed and it is
5then translated as follows. Please, Professor, follow the
6translation by looking at the German, if you will.
7 "We decent Germans, wallowing in this dirt",
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Pigsty"?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, right.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Sow stall. "Und fullen" is wallowing, is it?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] "This base lie against our people", yes?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Folk, people, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Which this Jewish rabble", Judenpack "has been spreading,
17I have had it up to here"?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is that a good translation, in your view?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, definitely.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you. Then we get Mr Irving speaking in German, and
22translated on the next page.
23 MR IRVING: We have had all this put to us in the video
24yesterday, my Lord. Why is he having a second bite of the
26 MR RAMPTON: Because I am going to ask ----
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have not got the question yet.
2 MR RAMPTON: We had not had the transcript yesterday. We had
3the tape and now I want to look at the words. Then I will
4ask a question. "And it was once again a one-man gas
5chamber, a one-man gas chamber carried around through the
6Polish countryside by two soldiers looking for the odd
7Jew, literally for individual Jews. This one-man gas
8chamber looked somewhat like sadan chair, I believe, but
9it was camouflaged as a telephone box, and one asks
10oneself: How did they get the poor soul of a victim to
11enter this one-man gas chamber voluntarily? Answer: There
12was probably a telephone bell inside it and it rang and
13the soldiers told him: "I think that's for you". Cut to
14laughing audience.
15 MR IRVING: My Lord, cut to laughing audience implies that the
16audience was laughing at that, and it was just a piece of
17laughing audience sliced in there. So I object to the
18phrase "cut to".
19 MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, we know that at this meeting,
20because we saw them on the screen were Mr Faurisson, nice
21Mr Zundel, Christian Worch, Judge Staglich, Mr Irving of
22course, and we were not sure but we thought maybe Arthur
23Butz and Karl Philipp, do you remember?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] If remarks of that kind, one might call it a joke in the
26very worst possible taste, I do not know, if a joke of
1that kind were made in that company and others of like
2mind, would you expect laughter from people like that or
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, a special laughter, identifying ----
5 MR IRVING: Why did Mr Rampton describe this as a joke?
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, it is not helpful really for you
7to keep interrupting. You might even give me the wrong
8impression by your continued interruptions. Those words
9were spoken by you.
10 MR IRVING: As a quotation from a document, yes, and for
11Mr Rampton to describe it as being a joke by me is
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say there was probably a telephone
14bell inside and it rang and the soldiers told him,
15"I think that's for you", what was ----
16 MR RAMPTON: What is the document? May we have it, my Lord?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry?
18 MR RAMPTON: I was wondering whether this document should be
19disclosed. I have never seen it, a quotation from a
20document. It may be the draft of Mr Irving's speech.
21I do not know.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have this now. Do not let us chase that.
23I am conscious of slight constraints of time.
24 MR IRVING: I will not interrupt again but I find it repugnant
25that he should have two bites of the cherry like this.
26 MR RAMPTON: It may be, my Lord, that others in this room,
1including your Lordship, most particularly your Lordship,
2find if repugnant that Mr Irving should have said anything
3of this kind at all ever in his whole life.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That as maybe. I am not, Mr Irving, giving
5Mr Rampton two bites of the cherry. If you remember what
6happened yesterday, I decided that it was wrong to have
7the German translated by Professor Funke as we went along,
8and I therefore said that the video should be relied only
9for who they showed you in company with. I invited, this
10is my recollection, Mr Rampton if he wanted to rely on
11what you had said to prepare a translation and then we
12could do it properly. I think that is exactly what
13Mr Rampton is doing.
14 MR IRVING: These are heavily edited excerpts which are
15produced for a rogues' gallery purpose which are now being
16used for their excerpt value which is unfair to me.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have given you permission, Mr Irving, later
18on to tell me in what way the context can affect what you
19said about one man gas chambers being taken around the
20Polish countryside by two soldiers.
21 MR IRVING: Your Lordship is familiar with the ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are able to produce anything that
23affects the meaning, then please do so, but not now.
24 MR IRVING: Your Lordship is familiar with the context,
25I think.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Rampton, would you like to ----
1 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving has the advantage of me, I have to say.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- press on?
3 MR RAMPTON: I will. Then we cut to Irving again and then we
4have some more German. Lots of question marks because the
5poor old translator, I dare say, could not pick up what
6the Hitler pick up what the words were. Anyhow, let us
7read the fragment that we have got, may we? "Now, to
8solve the enigma of the Auschwitz gas chambers, last
9October the Vatigan established that, according to carbon
10dating, the something or other probably without
11doubt", literally in German without objection, "dates from
12the years between 12.60 and 13.90, but some scientists
13argue that the wholly energy [blank] a body [blank] during
14resurrection the [blank] would have lifted up [blank]".
15Do you follow that? If you would like to look at the
16German, do you follow the drift of that thought, Professor
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems, but help me, that it is referring to.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The Turin Shroud I should think, is it, or
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] To the shrine, right.
22 MR RAMPTON: That is right, but transferring if I could ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that it is really a matter of
24evidence, this, I think it is a matter of ----
25 MR RAMPTON: No, it is a matter of what it says, I agree. It
26is matter of comment and it is a matter in the end for
1your Lordship what its drift is.
2 My final question is this, having regard
3Professor Funke, to the content of those little extracts
4that we have from the meeting at Hagenau, yes? According
5to your knowledge of right-wing extremism and neo-Naziism
6in Germany, are these sorts of things which are said here,
7whether by Mr Irving or by Mr Zundel, are they in any way
8characteristic of the views and attitudes of neofascists
9in Germany?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to give a differentiated answer. It is in that
11intensity of radical racist anti-Semitism, not a common
12language of all right-wingers. Parts of the right-wing
13extremists are more soft alluding to some aspects of what
14I said is a second anti-Semitism. So they criticise
15Galinski and nowadays Jewish leaders.
16 So this kind of openly rage-based anti-Semitism,
17this full scale of contempt like in the word Juden Pack,
18this absolutely cynicism with which Irving is referring to
19the most deep causing sorrows of the people of the Jewish
20descent, this kind of extreme radical racist, post
21Holocaust anti-Semitism is more at the core of these
22groups that I call neo-National Socialists and those who
23are influenced as skinheads, as youngsters by these
24groupings, and what I have to say, according to social
25sciences surveys that are done in the Institute of anti-,
26to analyse anti-Semitism in Berlin is that this kind of
1radical anti-Semitism, let us say where it is researched
2in the Branbuch area around Berlin is widespread within
3these circles. So you have on different levels,
4especially among male youngsters of middle education, you
5have this kind of anti-Semitism widespread. This is the
6very reason that the amount of destroying Jewish
7cemeteries, for example, the very well-known Wiesensee
8Cemetery or the grave, is it right, the grave of Heinz
9Galinski by a bomb attack, that this is caused by this
10kind of widespreading new kind of aggressive anti-Semitism
11within these circles.
12 MR RAMPTON: Thank you very much indeed, Professor.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that should go, just so that we know
14where it is, in tab 15 of RWE 2, page?
15 MR RAMPTON: Yes, page 18A and B but only the Hagenau bit
16because attached to it is some Munich, I think. The
17Leuchter conference -- well, that is Munich. Oh, a
18different Leuchter. It is not the Leuchter Congress. It
19is the Leuchter Conference.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
21 MR IRVING: My Lord, may I question for five minutes, please?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. One of the documents was the
23letter to Dr Frey?
24 MR IRVING: Yes, on each of those documents, but in reverse
25order. I think that is the most helpful.
26 < Further Cross-Examined by Mr Irving.
1 MR IRVING: Professor Funke, you said that these kinds of
2remarks addressed to skinheads and youngsters are liable
3to lead to attacks on synagogues and so on, is that
4the ----
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again. Excuse me.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Referring to my remarks at Hagenau (which I will discuss
7with you in a moment) "addressed to skinheads and
8youngsters", that was your phrase, would be liable to
9cause the kind of circumstances you referred to there,
10like tombstones being overthrown, synagogues attacked, and
11so on?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This kind of rhetoric, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask you just to have a look at the photograph,
14please, on page 15 of the bundle of photographs which is
15the audience at Hagenau and tell me how many skinheads and
16youngsters you can see in it?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well...
18 MR IRVING: My Lord, he said, it is a hypothetical thing, "If
19these remarks had been addressed to skinheads and
20youngsters, that would have been the outcome".
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it is researched. It is researched. It is the
22[German] research -- you may know it -- about the
23widespreading of anti-Semites within male youngsters who
24are often the same token very violent.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Answering Mr Rampton's question, you said that these
26remarks addressed to skinheads and youngsters would have
1these undesirable effects and you are probably right. But
2if you look at the audience who were listening ----
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course, the audience is different.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Middle aged?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, with the exception of Christian Worch and his gang.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Right. I am only going to refer briefly to the one man
7gas chamber. If I am lecturing an audience on the
8improbabilities of aspects of the Holocaust legend and, as
9this court well knows, I criticise the quality of a lot of
10the eyewitness evidence, and if one of the eyewitnesses,
11and we know there is a lot of lurid eyewitness evidence
12that we can discard, has described this rather improbable
13contraption, would that fit the description of what I have
14described in that speech?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What you are doing here is that you pretend that the
16eyewitnesses are excessing ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Exaggerating?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- exaggerating and producing legends, but I have to be
19now very personal. I did a book of those, it is called
20"Other Memory" of those who left Germany because of the
21pressure and later on the torture by the Nazi
22authorities. Social scientists, like Eric Ericson,
23Zaufriedlende, and what I learned as the essence of this
24encounter in the late '80s and at the time we are talking
25about, is, and I quote Zaufriedlende of the historian, the
26famous, that all those, excuse me ----
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you just answer the question about this being a piece
2of lurid eyewitness evidence?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That all those -- I do -- that all those who went through
4this horror ----
5 Q. [Mr Irving] The trauma?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- the trauma -- right, thank you -- cannot do this kind
7of research just as an objective historian. They have to
8do the objectivity and, on the other hand, they have to
9always rely to the experiences they themselves or their
10families went through. So, in other words, I would say no
11to all those who discard eyewitnesses. That does not say
12that the reconstruction of the Auschwitz horror, the
13cosmos of death -- if you go there you would see, you
14would sense it even today -- that the essence of this
15trauma and terror done by these Jews there, the mass
16gassing included, that this has been reconstructed by
17various means, and I think Peter Longerich did an awful
18good witness statement and paper to that, together with
19Mr Van Pelt. And so it is very clear that you cannot only
20count on the description of the eyewitnesses, although it
21is especially for the subjectivity what they went through
22very decisive.
23 So to quote your reference to Dresden, the
24Dresden thing are horror for a lot of people and you refer
25to the ashes of Dresden, but you cannot do it only -- you
26can do it only if you refer in the same token to the ashes
1of Auschwitz.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Right, but now let me put it like this. If in a speech
3I make a number of references to the appalling horrors
4undoubtedly suffered by the victims of Auschwitz, and
5I have never made any attempt to minimize them and I
6have referred to the shootings in Russia, I have quoted
7the Bruns report, and, on the other hand, I then mock the
8eyewitnesses who have obviously lied for whatever reason
9and dreamed up these totally ludicrous stories about the
10one man portable gas chamber, is it not dishonest, in your
11view, for somebody to take just that passage out and put
12that as a representation of my entire speech?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is, what you are doing is again and again. Look at the
1440 pages that was with the help of our assistant, Thomas
15Robins and Dunn, on the anti-Semitic or the rhetoric you
16did on this issue. So I recall just another quotation of
17you. So if it would be one time, we can cross over, but
18you did it again and again, and you just minutes ago
19referred that mass gassings did not happen. So if this,
20as long as this is the case, I cannot say yes to any of
21this kind of cynicism that you put to the public. Let me
22just recall this other quotation.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] If it is relevant, please?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is relevant to the question ----
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- but we do not want a lot of speeches?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is very short. It is like that you say, OK, this kind
2of survivors of the Holocaust, and you put it up in the
3way that you can quote it as "assholes". This cannot be.
4If you honestly, if you seriously, are saying that you
5realize the trauma of those who went through, if they
7 MR IRVING: Can I now take you to the letter dated 30th January
81991 which has been introduced by Mr Rampton?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Firstly, the question of the date. I do not know whether
11Mr Rampton meant it seriously or not, but as he said it
12I have to comment on it, if the letter is dated 30th
13January 1991, and if you look at the very top line, it
14is ----
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me, I missed it. 9th November or?
16 Q. [Mr Irving] 30th January?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: 30th January 1991, Dr Frey?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
19 MR IRVING: Yes. If you look at the very top line, the fax
20line, it was faxed at 1.13 p.m. on the following day.
21Then the letter was probably written on January 30th,
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] OK. If you turn the page, please, do you see I describe
25there that a number of great Germans I intend to talk
26about, the Nobel Prize winner, Otto Hahn and
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] They are not leading Nazis, are they?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] And the great ----
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Although some of them I partially ----
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not leading Nazis, the answer is no?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not leading Nazis, right. Excuse me.
9 MR IRVING: The final sentence of the letter above the
10signature, I say: "Of course, as always at DVU functions,
11I am not going to mention the Jews or the concentration or
12extermination camps with one word"?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Then the final sentence of the PS is: "I will most
15painfully keep within the laws of Germany, the Federal
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] On the general matter, the proposition raised by
21Mr Rampton, that it is right-wingest to look to reunify
22Germany and all the rest of the things that he said, can
23I remind you of what the German constitution says every
24German citizen is beholden to do? Do you know the passage
25I am referring to?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Tell me. I have the constitution here. What do you
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not think we need to...
3 MR IRVING: Is not every German citizen held to strive for the
4reunification of the German territories?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you are not doing justice to
6Mr Rampton's point. He was not just talking about
7the reunification of Germany.
8 MR IRVING: I was once again dealing with it piecemeal.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know it is difficult.
10 MR IRVING: And I am sorry that that was not appreciated.
11 THE WITNESS: It never meant unification includes parts of
12Poland, it never meant.
13 MR IRVING: Thank you very much, Professor.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. Professor Funke, that completes
15your evidence. Thank you very much.
16 < (The witness withdrew)
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton and Mr Irving, can I just mention
18that, in addition to the remaining cross-examination,
19there are several other outstanding things. I am sure you
20have them in mind. There is an argument about whether the
21expert reports of Eatwell and Levin can go in.
22 MR RAMPTON: No, I do not want them.
23 MR IRVING: My Lord, I was about to make the opposite
25 MR RAMPTON: I do not mind. I do not want them.
26 MR IRVING: My friend said that if Mr Rampton had argued on the
1basis of those authorities that he was entitled to, then
2who were we to argue against him?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is kind, but if he does not want to,
4then the question ends. I have feeling there are some
5loose ends on Civil Evidence Act Notices in relation to
7 MR RAMPTON: No, I do not think so. I think all the Moscow
8evidence I need has come from Mr Irving actually probably.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good.
10 MR RAMPTON: It is only the American factual witnesses and they
11are in proper condition because they have had Civil
12Evidence Act Notices.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We need to at any rate identify those
14and ----
15 MR RAMPTON: I need them for the underlying material in due
16course, but whether I do any cross-examination is a
17different matter.
18 MR IRVING: At what stage can I make submissions on the
19American factual witnesses, my Lord?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You do not, I think, have much of a legal
21submission you could make. They are overseas. You have
22had a notice, but I am not saying do not, but at the
23moment I do not quite see how you can keep those
24statements out.
25 MR RAMPTON: What Mr Irving is entitled to ----
26 MR IRVING: I do not want to keep the statements out, but I
1want to make certain representations about the quality of
2their evidence, their criminal records and the rest of it.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That, I think, is a matter for you to deal
4with in your evidence. It is not a ground for objecting
5to the statements going in under the Act.
6 MR IRVING: I mean I wanted to put it in by way of submission.
7That is what I suppose I was trying to say.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not prevent you doing that, whatever
9the form is.
10 MR RAMPTON: That is what I was going to say. There is a
11provision that allows where a witness is not being called
12under the Civil Evidence Act for what one might call
13rebuttal material to be put in and, of course, and comment
14that can be made about the internal condition ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The reliability of the evidence.
16 MR RAMPTON: Exactly.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Quite. Good. So 10.30 tomorrow morning.
18 (The court adjourned until the following day)