text:
By Jon Moffett
The teenager said she is an atheist and does not support the Pledge of Allegiance.
HUBBARD — One day after the American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio sent a letter to her school, the Hubbard High School senior who refused to recite the Pledge of Allegiance has explained her reasons for not standing.
Roxanne Westover, 17, of Elmwood Drive, had been reprimanded by the school for refusing to stand during the pledge, which is recited each morning. She said it contradicts her beliefs and she elected not to participate.
"I'm an atheist, and I believe the pledge isn't something toward our nation," she said. "It's more like a religious oath, and I believe that if I stand I'm still participating in it."
Westover said she had been written up and sent to the principal's office multiple times for her refusal over the course of the past few weeks. The ACLU sent a letter requesting the school to stop requiring students to say the pledge.
Richard Buchenic, Hubbard schools superintendent, said the district has a policy which requires only teachers to recite the pledge in the morning. He added that students are not required to participate.
Buchenic said he spoke with the ACLU, and the matter had been "dealt with."
Westover's mother, Mary, was disappointed with the way the school handled the issue.
"I wasn't too happy with the school threatening her the way they were," she said. "She came home in tears one day."
The younger Westover said everything started late last month when she learned through her history class she didn't have to stand during the pledge.
"I was like 'wow, I never had to do this,' " she said.
Westover said an assistant principal, who was filling in for her ill English teacher, would send her to the office, where she would miss the entire class period.
"There'd be times when she would write me up, and they'd keep me so long I'd miss everything in the class," Westover said.
According to Carrie Davis, staff counsel for the ACLU, the matter has been addressed, and the district is cooperating.
"We're very glad to hear that the school has a policy and that they intend to follow that policy," she said. "We will be staying in touch with that student to make sure she is not being punished."
Westover said she encourages others with similar beliefs to stand up for them by sitting down.
"I do encourage students to not stand up and to stand up for what they believe in," she said. "Even throughout the whole entire thing, I had a lot of people backing me up who felt the same way about it."
A similar situation occurred in Arkansas when a 10-year-old boy refused to stand.
The boy reportedly has an issue with the line "liberty and justice for all," saying it doesn't pertain to gays and lesbians.
When asked if her demonstration had any connection to the Arkansas boycott, Westover said it was simply a coincidence, but supported the boy.
"When I read that, I thought he did have a really good point," Westover said. "Gays and Lesbians don't have justice."
atheist?? Do you really now what a atheist is? Do you follow your atheist beliefs in everyday life? I think not.
atheist or not Roxanne, do you remember 911? Do you remember all the innocent people that died that day? Do you not remember how this nation respected and came together that day? Why now is that forgotten? You are not participating by standing up, that is the most ridiculous thing I heard of. Your nothing but a attention getter because of the boy in Arkansas, no more, no less. Are you happy you made the media (Vindicator)? Are you waiting for CNN to call? Just stand up, you have two legs, it's not that hard, and if you don't believe in no Gods then how can you be participating by standing up? And while your standing up, just think of other things, I'm sure you know how to stand up. And for the others on here that were commenting on the previous article, they were thinking you did this for your rights. Isn't that funny, no it's because your a atheist? LMAO.
That boy in Arkansas did the rights issue, so now you have to do something else, huh? Well hope your happy you have your 15 seconds of shame.
Going against Taboo Standards will get you a F in today schools. Good for Roxanne ! This I believe started in case of a conflict. The Young will be able to adjust to BOOT CAMP fast before getting killed or seriously injured in something they had nothing to do with. Let the Teachers and Politican say the pledge. Then put a gun in their hand and send them.
Lifes2Short, Follow me and drink what I do ! 911 happen because of America trying to tell people how to live in there Country and Control there lives. When we can't take care of our own. What bull ! I don't say it either does that me less American ? It's like the Vietnam CONFLICT or Policing Action . How many lives were lost for OIL ? It wasn't Communism that's just a out right lie which America is good at telling. Like you !
timOthy- I'm sure you believe in the Reptilian shape-shifting aliens from 911 to, huh? And I'm sure you don't think Oswald assassinated President Kennedy? Everything is a conspiracy, huh? And you probably also believe the All-Seeing Eye on the seal of the dollar bill is a conspiracy to, huh? Everything in the United States is a conspiracy to people like you. Get a grip on life. geez.
Every American has the right to love or hate their country. Forcing her to take a pledge she doesn't believe in will not foster patriotism. She should be allowed to sit quietly while others choose to say the pledge.
Recall that Mr. Obama denounced wearing "that flag" on his lapel and was the only candidate at an Iowa function to not put his hand over his heart during the Star-spangled Banner. He was making a statement about his loyalties and beliefs, as is Roxanne.
Athiest, haha.
Tell me, Roxanne. Do you spend money? Do you feel disgusting and shameful, as if you're taking a religious oath, when you buy something at the store, because on the back of your cash it says "In God We Trust?" Or do you rebel against that, too?
It's great to see someone "not stand up" for their rights. 9/11 was an act done by a religious cult against the US for pushing it's religion on others. A perfect example of why church should be seperate from the government.
The pledge was established not that long ago during a time of excessive fear. It should be removed from use as it is something the nazi party would use.
aeparish, Money is just a bartering tool ! God has nothing to do with unless you belong to a cult civic group and promoting it. Besides what is a dollar worth ?
Then how about this angle? The Pledge of Allegiance is NOT a religious screed - it's said to show respect for the country that ALLOWS someone to choose their own religious beliefs.
If this bimbo truly objects to any mention of "God" she can simply not say the phrase "...under God..." She doesn't have to disrespect the traditions, values, and so on, of the country that gives her her freedoms. If she values her citizenship in this country, she should be glad to say the Pledge.
I just remember being respectful of the flag and saying the Pledge of Allegiance everyday in school. It's respect for our forefathers and what this country was founded on. Kids should be kids and parents should parent those kids. If I was disrespectful of anything when I was a kid, my parents would have disciplined me, not patted me on the back. That's is what's wrong these days.
All I will say is I'm sure her parents are very proud of her.LOL
Stan calling this girl psychotic! Now that is funny.
The people who think this girl is wrong in exercising her rights achieved through years of dissent and war is also very comedic. You go girl, the people who are against you are the ones you don't want on your side anyways.
The girl is heading for a lifetime of trouble,and then will play the victim card.You go girl.
"catastrophically disabled with complete and irrecoverable loss"
is what I am seeking in long term disability payments from this 2 day article...lol.
HHHMMMNNNNN???? Now, Citizens, exactly what is wrong with this picture/story...
it IS Hubbard, OHio. Go figure.
Same Old $crapola; different day.
Clearly the girl is just looking for attention.
"Larry, have you ever heard of Vietnam?"
Good for Roxanne. Americans have rights, and we have the right to choose not to stand and say the pledge if we so choose. I myself say the pledge whenever it's called for, but I will not degrade another person for not doing so. It is their choice, and that is what freedom is: choice, and that is what America is supposed to be about, freedom.
When we begin to force others to think and believe and do as we do, we become Nazis. Or evangelical. We fought for a country where many people can co-exist without having to be alike in religion, race, political affiliation, or anything really. Perhaps if we actually were the country the founding fathers had set out to create, fewer people like Roxanne would feel the need to sit down during the pledge.
JeffL, who is Larry?
Nonsocialist for one your wrong about Obama...he is the only one that didn't put his hand on his chest is right! Your not supposed to put your hand over your heart during the Star-spangled Banner you moron! Only during the pledge, do some research before you post!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Roxanne can be whatever she wants, all you zealouts jealous or what? Let her be her and you be YOU!
for all of you defending this girl, remember that "FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE" and it must cost all of us something.
The Pledge of Allegiance is as much about respect for our fallen soldiers and forefathers as it is about appreciating the freedoms that they gave us.
I say to this girl; STAND UP AND RECITE THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE YOU POOR MISGUIDED INGRATE!
As an atheist and honorably discharged veteran who doesn't stand for the Pledge because of the insertion of under god I applaud her. email@example.com
Roxanne, don't pay any attention to the people who can only think in slogans. They are just the cattle in this country. They think they are free because they are told they are free. They are uncomfortable with anything but mindless conformity. They blaspheme against real freedom.
You've found a little crack in the door and some light is coming in... Don't let them keep you from opening the door.
"Liberty and Justice for all."
The link below provides the definition for the word "Liberty". I suggest all you patriotic flag wavers read it and then have someone explain it to you.
We will believe anything you pro-Pledgers have to say about the Pledge is serious when we see you out pledging the flag every day - as you would force little kids to be do.
First, let's get one thing clear, the flag or Pledge to it have never been about honoring soldiers and war. It is cloying and irrelevant to suggest otherwise. (America's unquestioning devotion at the altar of militarism is another subject.)
How soon we forget that Jehovah's Witnesses in Nazi Germany were among the first to be persecuted for refusing to stand during the Sieg Heil salute, which so closely resembles our Pledge of Allegiance. Forcing this upon our citizens, and especially our children, crosses a line that is un-American. And when you consider this is mostly elementary school age kids, it amounts to little more than bullying.
Every American should understand that there is more to the Supreme Court ruling that applies here than just declaring it unconstitutional to force kids to stand for the Pledge. The majority opinion in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, written by Justice Robert Jackson in 1943, became one of the great statements in American constitutional law and history.
"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."
The true legacy of Barnette is less its jurisprudence than its defense of the principles of freedom. Justice Jackson continued, "Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard."
I would ask you to stop and think for a minute what kind of patriot you, yourself, are by where you stand on this basic principal we call freedom.
More at: http://members.cox.net/patriotismforall/
Lost in all of this is the teacher who inspired her to do this. Kudos for opening her mind.
Roxanne, you're no doubt going to have many challenging days to come, but there are others like you out there. And we're proud of you.
To the administration, this incident might have never made it to this stage if you just let her sit in her seat quietly. Think about it.
This is funny. Paradox over paradox.
People who oppose what this girl is doing are saying that the pledge just shows support for the people who fought for the freedoms she now has.
In other words. They want to restrict freedoms of that girl, because it would show respect to the people who gave her those freedoms.
Now that's weird. Exercising your rights is the only way to support those who fought for them.
Let's all welcome these newbies to Vindy!
The now deceased Red Skelton explained the Pledge very well on his former TV show.
The US Flag code states, "all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart."
I forgot to mention that he was also the only one not singing the National Anthem.
Let's face it, there are multiple examples demonstrating that Mr. Obama has a problem with the US flag. He has the right to like or not like his nation or it's flag.
Calling me a moron makes me love you all the more!
Your money is being held by a kid named Larry Sellers. Real...brat, but I'm sure your goons can get it off him. I mean, he's fifteen.
Flunking social studies.
NonSoclialist...oh so you follow every code ever written up right? Do you have anything better to do than to follow codes judge people for petty things like that? Have anything better to do than judge a persons beleifs? I never knew there was a code for how we are supposed to stand or gesture in our country, where do they teach that? Preschool? So are you saying breaking that code is against the law or makes you a bad person? Is it law that we have to sing? I sure in the heck don't sing any of these meaningless pledges or songs! Everything is all made up....people like you would belieive anything anyone told you. Even the bible..a book written by "God" knows who. A bunch of humans that lead everyone to believe a man in the sky was talking to them!
The Pledge of Allegiance is an official government declaration that specifically specifies four things as being so un-American that no loyal American would support or participate in them.
Atheism (under God), Secession (Indivisible), Tyranny (with liberty), and Injustice (and justice for all).
That the government would put its atheist citizens in the same lump as secessionists, tyrants, and perpetrators of injustice is contemptible.
That anybody would think that atheists have an obligation to stand while the Government tells her that she is as despicable in the eyes of the government as rebels, tyrants, and the unjust is absurd.
You are misunderstanding my point. Roxanne and Mr. Obama both have the right to say the pledge (or not), sing the National Anthem (or not) or respect the flag (or not). They can exercise their freedoms as they choose.
Roxanne clearly has an issue with the Pledge as demonstrated by her actions and words. I don't feel she should be punished for exercising her freedoms.
Mr. Obama clearly has an issue with the US flag, based on his repeated words and actions. As an American, he similarly has the freedom to dislike a symbol of the United States of America.
Come on Mr. NonSoclialist...how dare you accuse someone of having an issue with the flag. Are you really going to sit here and speak for someone else? Your just going to put those words in his mouth aren't you? Do you know our president personally? I don't put my hand across my heart or sing and I don't have one single problem with the American Flag! As for Roxanne...if she wants to be the oddball out in class who cares, you can't force anyone to stand up for any pledge or national anthem, they stand if they want to.
You come on Aprilflowers (How did you know I'm a Mr.)?
If you want to conclude that Mr. Obama loves the American flag after denouncing wearing "that flag" on his lapel, and then not wearing it for awhile, and being the only one in a crowd of Democrats to not follow the US flag code or to sing the National Anthem, and to speak ill of America overseas and apologize for America, and to marry a woman who was proud of America "for the first time" while her husband was about to be elected President...than that's your right to do so.
Thanks for not calling me any more nasty names.
Red Skelton is to be pitied as it is a prayer contrary to his ignorance in not realizing god is a myth. We are no more a nation under god than under allah, zeus or the tooth fairy. firstname.lastname@example.com
God is real,he is an awesome God.God luck in the after life TXatheist.I serve a living God,not a myth.
I am a very good friend of roxanne and would like to say a few words to many of you commenting. I see roxanne every morning in the school cafeteria and it is there that she has been filling me in on what has been happening this entire month or so. About a month or so ago she came in to the cafe and said guess what nick i got sent to the office for not standing during the pledge. I inquired as to why se did not stand and she told me she had recently learned that we dont have to stand and showed me the document that stated it. I was rather excited because i myself do not fully believe in the message the flag sends(i am atheist as well). I certainly mean no disrespect to the veterans of our country because i think we have alot to thank them for, but if you really think you are being patriotic by standing for 30 odd seconds a day then you should get a grip on reality and go volunteer at a vets center (there is one directly across from our school complex) but i digress. As i was saying, every morning she came in and told me she was sent to the office each day and i fully supported her as well as many of my friends by not standing as well. Recently she came to me telling me about the situation with the school and how they had to respect the students of the school. Soon before this however she came to me telling me of how she might get an interview with the vindicator but was not so sure as to wether or not she really wanted to do it. I was more excited for her than she was to be completely honest. Today i saw the paper and felt a great sense of accomplishment for people everywhere. In short roxanne is not an attention craver, is not a satan worshipper, and most defanitely is not in any way a copy cat. She is a good friend a someone willing to stand up for what she believes in and i thank her.
A attention getter, because if she wasn't then why did she do the interview with the Vindy? Who called the ACLU? Why isn't this kept within the school and handled through the school (superintendent,etc) ? Funny how this came out right after the media frenzy on the Arkansas child, (CNN,etc) who is only 10 years old, and should be a 10 year old instead of worrying about gays and lesbians. As you can see from the comments and such, shes getting all the attention she wants and laughing the whole time. Is CNN or HLN next for Roxanne?
And that is all your choice to be a atheist (which is kind of funny - because that seems to be the latest fad among kids nowadays all around the country) but anyway, I will say a prayer come Judgement Day for you lost souls.
nickh2024 :
" I was rather excited because i myself do not fully believe in the message the flag sends(i am atheist as well)."
This could be so awesome ! The uneducated telling the educated to conform to your ideology .
"Recently she came to me telling me about the situation with the school and how they had to respect the students of the school."
Why expect respect when you don't believe in it ? Don't hold your breath waiting for the world to conform to your standards .
I am a student at the same high school and a proud american. I think this all is a bunch of bologna, does she not realize that shes not standing for the rights that she has the opportunity to with hold. People fight everyday to protect the very freedoms we have and the pledge is showing respect to that. You could live in a place where she doesn't have the right to sit and not praise the leader of her country and be sentenced to death. She should be thankful to live in a country where she has the right to speak what she feels in the first place. Even if you dont agree with the pledge at least stand up and show respect to those who fight for your freedom to voice your opinion. If you don't like America you can just geettt on outtt!!
From the nightmarish, bursting cannon balls at the Battle of Gettysburg to the blockbuster bombs of World War II to the thermonuclear weapons of today we have come. To quote professor and author Dr. Carl Sagan, "in less than one century, our most fearful weapon had become a billion times more deadly. But we have not become a billion times wiser in the generations that stretch from Gettysburg to us."
The Justices have already stated that 'freedom of speech' also include not saying anything at all. I salute Roxanne.
Okay first off people talking bad about the decision should get to kno "this girl" first... u don't kno "her" and you don't kno the exact reason why "she" is doing this so mayb you should get to kno "her" before you go off saying all this stuff about "her" decision... u never kno about anything in "her" life u don't kno "her" nationality for all you kno "she" could have more right to be here than most people saying all this stuff about "her" so before you go off saying all this stuff get to kno "her"
I don't kno what you are talking about you kno.Stay in school you can't even freaken talk,you kno.
Hey Tug, why is it alright for her not to do the pledge as an expression of her freedoms and yet Calhoun thought nothing of getting others rights taken away by getting the ratemyteacher comments taken down? Isn't it their right to rate Calhouns performance as a teacher?
By the way, I agree the girl deserves high praise for taking advantage of those freedoms.
dude, learn how to speak and spell like a human being. wow, I hope you take extra lessons in school. Is this what they teach you in school nowadays? Ouch.
Funny how people jump on the bandwagon and get drawn in to people who love to get attention. Actually it's very funny. Isn't it great when you are the center of the limelight?
If I met Roxanne I would ask her...
"Who pushed you into doing this?"
i pledge, that one nation is still under God and i dont care what some kid thinks about thier mis understood ways of thinking, if she doesnt love our pledge than she can get the hell out. or better yet quit being such a media hound over her so called freedom of religeon spiel, dont she know that that same pledge that we all came to love and cherrish,that there are alot of people who use the other ammendment, the right to bear arms and do so everyday to fight for your so called right to be free. so before disecting the pledge you should honor it for what is worth.
okay first off I'm not being a "media hound" and second I think I have more of a right to be here than you do. Before anyone even came here and "discovered" this "nation" Native Americans lived here and I am in fact 12.5% Native American. My Grandfather is 50% so my dad is 25% which makes me 12.5% so before you go off and say anything you should get your facts straight
And Candystriper no one pushed me to do this I did this all on my own because I'm standing up for what I believe is right. But I do think it's very funny how all these people sit there and talk bad about Atheist people, but if an Atheist person went up to someone who is Christan and talked bad about them they'd probly get all their Christian friends and start beating that person with a Bible or something. and I do have respect for this Country I mean heck my Grandpa fought in the Military for my rights that I am expressing. And I do remember someone said something about how money says "In god we trust" and they said if i spend money do I feel bad in anyway. Well my answer to that is I guess you can say I do in a way but there's nothing I can really do about that. I mean how hard is it for them to change the Pledge and remove "Under god" but with the money it's gonna take more money just to remove "In god we trust" than to just leave it alone. So there's nothing I can really do about what money says, but I did do something about the Pledge. I stood up for what I believe is right and I will support anyone else who does the same. No one should be forced to do anything they should be able to do what they believe in. And that is a reason why I'm taking a stand. I mean really is that what everyone in this Country should be a follower not a leader?
and if you think everyone in this Country should be a follower then tell me... If someone jumped off a bridge would u?
Or if you believe that people should always do what they are told to do no matter what it is then tell me this...
If someone told you to go get a gun and shoot yourself you would just because they told you to?
Really think about it and tell me what you think...
I have no problem with people being Atheist, to each there own. If this is really Roxanne, my question is when did you start being a Atheist? Why? Why didn't you do this before the Ark. child? (don't tell me you just found out about it, because that is weak) Why is it hard to just stand up? I understand you want your rights and stuff, but I'm sure the principal would let you just leave the room well the others were happy to stand up for America. Why get the ACLU involved? Why get the Vindy involved? What point are you trying to make to get the press and media involved if your just standing up for YOUR rights? If you were so gung ho about making a stand, why does everyone have to be involved instead of just the people that could take care of it one way or another? Your a senior, you'll be graduating, why stir up this now instead of when you were a freshman,sophomore,junior? You cried because you were written up? Sorry Roxanne but that is life and when you get in the real world and start working your going to have to do things you might not agree with and if not, instead of getting written up you'll be fired.(Not a good way to make a living or start a family). How were you threatened? Do you believe that we are "within" God and that God is "within" us? If so, then that would be your God, wouldn't it? Hope you like the attention.
You kno u have a split personality u no your 1st comment you no was so intelligible you no and this one you no is totally different. you no....
mikeymike, afterlife? Sorry, just another fictional idea on in story books. firstname.lastname@example.com
Bonus points for quoting Carl Sagan. :-)
okay... no one pushed you into doing this...interesting for a 17 year old...the school should follow the law...you win...
but we always want to know real motive behind the action...
..is it joblessness/under employment...do you think that your future chances for success are poor?
..never move to Utah.
It's time to pee on the American flag and burn your bibles or nonbibles or whatever you have! Down with America and all of those in it that care to be here and respect it!!! Oh sorry, I just got caught up in the stupidity!
I assume next will be the boycott of hard, cold cash.
your making the school look bad along with the entire senior class of 2010. and im in that class and your just in it for the attention. personally your making your self and your country look bad. i hope your happy you selfish girl you
Op-Ed: Disgraceful unpatriotic girl in Hubbard Ohio calls in the criminals from the ACLU
November 19, 6:11 PM
Trumbull County Conservative ExaminerJohn Hull
Hubbard, OH - In yet another example of the decline of America due to the mental illness known as "progressive liberalism" (socialism), an unnamed Hubbard High School student who refused to stand, as is warranted, for the Pledge of Allegiance, called in the criminals at the ACLU because she got in trouble.
There is a school policy to pacify these derelicts, which allows students to choose whether or not to recite the Pledge. Say it or don't say it, whatever, but she damn well better stand up for it.
It is disgraceful that men and women fought and died under this flag for some sniveling little snot to show a complete lack of respect for them and their flag by refusing to stand up.
This iconoclastic miscreant's parents should be ashamed for the way she turned out.
Unfortunately, she is not the only repugnant anti-American brat refusing to honor the flag, and they are encouraged by unethical swine like ACLU staff counsel, Carrie Davis who says she will be monitoring the situation.
This is exactly what is wrong with this country. The unscrupulous are held up as victims when, in fact, they should be run out of town on a rail.
okay all i have to say is if your not doing if for the publicity why are you commenting with the name "iim_her2010" ?! humm you look like a media hound to me!
im pretty sure that we live in america... and if you dont like living in america then you can get on out!!
i pledge alegence to the flag of the united states of AMERICA and to the republic for which it stands one nation under GOD indavisable with liberty and justice for all.
go to afganistan and tell me you dont want to stand for the pledge
...I was at a college football game recently that the Commander of the Navy attended ... before introducing him the fighter jets flew over the stadium... the student section hissed and boo's them both...disgraceful.
okay I'm back to answer questions. I tried to believe in "God" but it didn't work I mean how am I going to believe in someone who we have no proof that he doesn't exist. Hell theres more proof about Big Foot than "God" but yet everyone swears up and down that "God" is real. Okay yah seriously get a grip on reality. And I know when I get into the "real world" that I will have to do stuff that I don't want to do and I'm fine with that. The fact is, if you were there in the Office with me one of the days you would understand why I went off and did everything with the Media. Mr. Garrett started practically yelling at me in his office. Both Mrs. Gough and Mr. Garrett laughed at me and said that I'm wrong and I was just trying to prove them right. And if it wasn't for them threatening to punish me I wouldn't of cared. Speciall because at the time I was on like a school probation sort of thing. Which meant, if I got suspended then I would of gotten expelled for the whole school year and I would of had to re-take my Senior year which I would of been very pissed. Hubbard High School is A PIECE OF CRAP!!!! so really who wants to spend another year in that piece of crap?
And no I don't think my chances of a future is poor. I actually have a very good future even before all of this.
And I never knew about the guy in Ark. I actually didn't know about him until I read it in the paper when they said about the school thing when I wasn't mentioned. And I got the ACLU involved because my Lawyer wasn't doing anything at that point. And it wasn't my choice to get the Vindy involved. I didn't even know they were going to publish anything about the whole thing in the first place then I seen they did so i decided to give my reason. And I wasn't just standing up for my rights. There are other people in my school who are forced but are scared to take a stand so I was the one who did. okay and so you want me to stand? Are you going to force me to stand? And if you want to force me to stand then you get out of here you COMMUNIST!!!!
If you are really the Valedictorian of the Hubbard High Class of 2010 we are all doomed.
Okay really I haven't been to church in a long time and if I did go to your church then tell me what church was it? I haven't been in church since I'd have to say Freshman or Sophmore year. Yes I have been to youth group but I haven't been there since maybe the beginning of this year. So really I'd love to know. And if your so "Christian" then give me proof that "God" is real!!!
Isn't it just easier to not say "under God"? This sounds like nothing more than a student wanting attention. Why else would the ACLU be involved?
iim_her2010 :
I think that that your lack of reasoning makes all of the others students going to Hubbard look very intelligent . Is there a God ? You bet ! He put you on this earth for a purpose . You are fulfilling that purpose by showing the other students what not to do !
Interesting iim_her2010 very interesting. So you were on probation (and it must haved been pretty serious) to hold you back a year. So you figure you would try to raise a stink about something and you seen this kid in Ark, so you get lawyers and the ACLU and the media involved and figure the school wouldn't suspend you now because the carnival started and you knew if you did this then you would have the public stand behind you. Is that it?
As far as not believing in God, that is your choice and only yours, so whatever you believe in that is all that matters, there is no reason to have other people tell you why there is NOT a God, because there is, and come judgment day your on your own there won't be noone covering your back on that. It's your choice in this life, noone elses.
I am in roxanne's gradeuating class and i would just like to say roxxane is not "Athiest" she is a "Christan" she whent to my church for about 4years or about 5-6 years but that dosent matter she would always pray in church and she would always sing the songs. She never had a problem from kindergarden to her junior year now she decides to not stand for the pledge and look what happend not too long ago in "Arkansas" a 10 year old did not they were too worry abouy gays and lesbians she never supported her religion "athiest" and if she is why didnt she uportit 11years ago her mom should have told her ('see honey you do not stand for the pledge because its agenst your religion") so why come up now she is just a huge attension getter becaues no one talks too her and she just needs to stand in the morning and give 30 odd sec. to those whome lost there lifes so we can to that and to how we cane have our separat religion "christand, catholic, muslum, jews,Ect." whay dont you just contemplat about that give them respect roxanne they die for our freedome to have our own speech our own relijion just give them a few seconds of respect to say hey thanks for fighting for our freedom and little time to say thank you. whats next are you going to scream when "9-11" comes around agen when we are supose to have a moment of silence its the same thing roxxane is respect thousands of people lost there life for our freedoms and same on 9-11 thousands lost there life on a normal day a airplane hit both towrs in new york city the pentigon and the ones who said"hey look we are flying over a big field and the planes heading for the white house lets crash it into the field so we are the ones who die not the people in the white house" those people i think should get the medal of honor. all im sayig is stand for the pledge.
see roxanne your a person one one like and you too fat to stand whats wrong with you just stand
Roxanne you are in for the shock of your life when you get in the real world.No one will put up with your attitude.I doubt very seriously that your future is bright,unless your stocking light bulbs at wal mart.You are the classic case of some one wanting attention,and trying to deflect all your problems on someone else.Your parents must be so proud of you.
There is a GOD and come judgement day ,you will find out,then it will be too late.
iim_her2010,you want proof that GOD exists,look in the mirror ,he created you and gave you life.
Okay if he created me and gave me life wouldn't he want the person he gave life to happy? I think he would!! If he is even real... So really if he is real then y do we have so many people killing themselves now a days?
"Okay if he created me and gave me life wouldn't he want the person he gave life to happy?"
Happiness depends on what you do with your life . Is the path that you have chosen now producing happiness ? Man was created with the ability to choose . A cliff is pleasing on the eyes but not if you walk over the edge .
Gods gift to man was life . Man's gift to God is what he or she does with that life .
saluting our flag is a sign of respect. if the young lady disagrees with the words, she should still stand and be silent.
that one big problem in this country today. so many have no respect. it's like saying please and thank you. maam and sir. you don't have to like the person, just respect them as a fellow human being.
"Okay if he created me and gave me life wouldn't he want the person he gave life to happy? I think he would!! If he is even real..."
Who or What do you believe created man and women?
"So really if he is real then y do we have so many people killing themselves now a days?"
Noone knows that answer. Each suicide is a entity in itself.
Sounds like a snot nosed whiney kid who is just out to grab some attention. Well, ya got it. Here is your 15 minutes of fame. Time's up. Oh wait, there is going to be more. Next you are going to be crying about all the negative publicity you are receiving and how people are so mean to you. Your best bet is to just shut up and fade away.
Manners are essential for a society to function but forced patriotism is not much better than conscription which is no different than slavery. If you have to force people to stand and honor the country then you don't have a country worth honoring.
...and Good God! As a Hubbard taxpayer I must say you are all in need of some basic grammar. All of you whom identified yourselves as Hubbard students should realize your points are moot if no one can understand them.
paulb, if you read her own words, can't you see she has no desire for protesting nothing, shes only doing this to get out of being expelled for the year and repeating her senior year. And if you read her words can't you see that she is a confused 17 year old girl. She keeps going to other things when the only reason she was protesting was because she did'nt want to stand up. If you have 2 legs, you should be able to stand up, or walked out of the room. There is no reason to call lawyers and the ACLU and the media over this, this is'nt protesting, this is called getting people to feel sorry for you, exactly like YOUR doing, and it's working for her because of people like YOU. Case in point, didn't you feel bad for "balloon boy" at first? Look how that came out. People nowadays are doing this for attention, that's all. No more no less. Or are you that blind?
And what did you do when 911 happened? Do you remember? Did you cheer for the planes? Did you celebrate? Or did you grieve and pray for everyone? If you celebrated and such then you shouldn't be in this country, because when 911 happened the whole country was as one, but now, it's all a conspiracy and such.
And I would love for you to go up to a Vietnam vet, WW1 and 2 vet, Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan vets look them straight in the EYES and tell them what you commented. That would be worth admission.
If you can't respect America then you shouldn't be here, because if it wasn't for these vets (whether the wars were right or not, it's over and done with) then you would have 0(zero) rights.
And as far as religion that is each person for themselves, whatever they believe in, and come Judgment day, then that is all that matters, can't tell people what to believe in.
This young girl has had more than "HER 15 MINUTES of SHAME".
We should all stop the comments.
Yes, she is entitled to her opinion, but this has gone way beyond.
The concept that encompasses freedom of choice is never outdated . This is America ! We don't have machinegun nests and executions forcing people to live here .
"The rehashing of shallow for-show patriotism where some of you say about all the military folks and those on September 11 that perished to 'protect your freedom' is rather hysterical."
Also would love for you to LOOK in the EYES of the ones that lost there loved ones on September 11th and in the Wars and tell them to there face what you said. I have a feeling it wouldn't be pretty. Maybe before you comment you need to look in the mirror and think the World don't evolve around you because there are other people that have suffered for your freedom.
When I honorably served I served to protect our freedoms in the Constitution. That includes the right to dissent. I do not stand for the Pledge and any that tells me to stand up is told to shut up. email@example.com
It seems as if the real issue has been neglected here - she isn't standing up during the pledge of Allegiance. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness while I was in school, and though I never said the pledge of Allegiance due to the fact that as a Christian, we are not supposed to be pledging allegiance to anyone but God. However, I always stood to show my respect to the country I live in. All Witnesses do, as should everybody in that room. Don't recite the pledge for whatever reasons you want to - but the point is that you have to RESPECT the country you live in. It is a respect issue, plain and simple. She should get off her duff and stand to show respect. Whether she recites it or not is up to her, but it is extremely disrespectful not to stand.
0_0, is it also disrespectful to us atheists to say we are a nation under god when the Pledge wasn't written that way but changed by catholics?
TXatheist :
Your choice to be an atheist entitles you to all its rewards . Many in this country choose to lead a Godless life . You are not alone . I'm sure that there is a place on the Cosmos for the Godless ones when they leave this earth just as there is a place for those who have God in their hearts There is a God and it is your choice not to follow him .
TXatheist -
"is it also disrespectful to us atheists to say we are a nation under god when the Pledge wasn't written that way but changed by catholics?"
But it's ok that the "Judiciary Act of 1789" was changed to "Which words, so help me God, shall be omitted in all cases where an affirmation is admitted instead of an oath," in the court of laws, but if your in the courts you still have to stand up,why that is so difficult blows my mind.
Did you not read what 0_0 wrote? To each there own about not reciting the pledge but the least you could do is stand up for your freedom - You are in the UNITED STATES, go to other countries and see how far you get with your beliefs. You atheists (God forbid you's) always have to b@#4 about something. Never ending. Are you not healthy that you can't stand up or walk out the room? Why do you complain about it? It isn't that difficult to stand up or walk out.
Reward? Not believing in ideas that are unfounded and unverifiable and actually unbelievable. That is a godless life. There is a place for the godless, earth, cause we ain't leaving it except in your mind according to your unfounded story book. God is in a story book and I can't follow him or the tooth fairy. email@example.com
You still didn't answer my questions? Is it not that difficult to stand up or walk out the room? Like I said in my previous comments, I'm not going to get into your beliefs, to each there own on that, but can't you stand up for America? Is it that bad? Difficult? What does standing up or walking out have to do with if there is a God or not? Your standing up for America not God. Amazing.
TXatheist :
The Godless who by their actions put themselves on death row seem to have a fear of going back to the earth . If there is no fear of God the Godless have no limits to their Godlessness !
You make a good point Stan, if there is no Godlessness in someone, what makes that person not just go out and kill innocent people, rape, rob, etc....and to think about that, that is really scary. If people are not worried about the afterlife, then what would stop them from harming others, including your family, there family, friends, others. If they have no beliefs then what would stop them? Why would they care of the consequences. Interesting.
Stan does NOT make a good point. Godless people have the same basic restrictions religious people do: Laws, desire to live in peace, work for the betterment of society, etc... What I find interesting is it's the religious people who claim if they stopped believing in God they would go out commit acts of horror "just because".
Such a foolish statement! But I'm not surprised to hear it here.
Hitler was a catholic actually. But why does that matter? Do I justify Christianity by the crusades or Islam by 911?
...Of course not. Tactics like yours are no different than the groupthink of the communists you supposedly despise. Would you label Ben Franklin UnAmerican:
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies"
p.s. You forgot Mao.
Oh and Mussolini was a baptized Catholic. You'll see him and Hitler in heaven apparently...
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I see nothing of the sort to support a God hypothesis.
The attacks on this young lady are nothing more than people in denial. They know deep down there's nothing out there, but they want to delude themselves into thinking as such. Fear is the motivator here for it is easier and more comforting to believe in life after death than it is to deal with the limits of mortality.
There is nothing limited in the human mind . The human is unlimited in what it can do . Without the guidelines set forth by God unlimited mayhem will follow . We are a free nation . You are free to do whatever you please . However, you are also free to bear the consequences of your actions . Most of us in America still have parameters that we expect those without the intention do do so to follow .
life2, why would I object to not having to say under god in an oath? When I finally got a letter for jury duty I was going to explain I needed to swear in with a secular oath. The least you could do is remove under god and I'll stand when those words are out of the pledge. If I wanted god shoved down my throat I'd move to Iran but I live in America. Many other countries like Denmark and Sweden are much less religious so let's emulate them and not Iran. God doesn't forbid anything as god is imaginary. If you wouldn't put religion in public arena's I wouldn't have to use the Constitution to get you back in check. How about you beacchin fundies that complain if a company doesn't want it's employees to just pander to xians and are supposed to say happy holidays? Man, you get bent out of shape for being inclusive. YOu can go out of the room if you want to say under god, I don't have to leave and be bothered by your nonsense. Don't think of inconveniencing me. Reciting a pledge is not America. It's blind patriotism. That's my answer, don't recite the religious pledge, change it, I ain't leaving the room for you. The same reason I don't go out and kill someone is the same reason you don't, you were taught not to by your parents, not cause the bible says not to though god slaughters people all the time and you fundies overlook that vengeful act. What's scary is if you didn't have your imaginary friend you might kill or rape. Hitler was a xian. The others were dictators who oppressed all freedoms including religion and freethought/atheism. Guidelines of god? LIke the bible telling us to kill kids that curse their parents or that we are to kill homosexuals? email@example.com
TXatheist :
Without parameters the Godless are free to do whatever they please . Being taken out by one of your own should give you a warm fuzzy glow before the lights go out . Christians have fought the wars for America to keep us safe and free . Too bad that atheists feel that they are free to do as they please . Our only option is to give them the freedom to bear the consequences of their actions .
Stan, what part of civil law do you think we atheists can't grasp? Not doing 56 in a 55 mile per hour zone or the killing? Contrary to your belief we are in a godless world. Christians have fought because in earlier America heretics were killed. Remember the Salem Witch trials? Or were you talking about the xians that slaughtered native americans when they created the USA? I served my country so I fought right along side them and paved the way for other atheists to have freedoms. There are no consequences for not standing for the Pledge.
Roxanne you hang tough. Why is it that just because she is 17 she can't possibly understand what atheism is? It does not make her any less patriotic. Where is it written to be a good American you have to believe in God. I know alot of supposid religious people that are far from good Americans.
I support her decision. I used to attend my local neighborhood watch until the ones in charge decided we had to say the pledge before each meeting. I have been out of school for many years and feel that a neighborhood block meeting is not the place for such things.
I am proud that a young girl stood up for what she believes in. Just because it is not your belief does not make it WRONG.
I didn't believe in God and/or country either.......until the 32 other guys who were all around me died in the fire fight in Nam. There will come a time in her life that she will be tested. And hopefully my God will be merciful to her when her moment of understanding arrives.
Viewpoint, as a honorably discharged vet that escaped near death twice while serving I still support www.maaf.info
TXatheist :
"I served my country so I fought right along side them and paved the way for other atheists to have freedoms. There are no consequences for not standing for the Pledge."
There are no consequences period in the minds of atheists . However , reality will prove all of them wrong .
Killers, thieves and rapist are just excercising the freedoms that all atheists endear , right ?
TXatheist - You still did'nt answer my question? Is it that hard to walk out of the room or stand up? Simple question, should be a simple answer.
Everyone can say they served there country and yada yada yada, your behind a keyboard, you can be anything you want to be, and if you twice escaped death what about the men by you? Did they escaped death to, or did they perish in the line of duty?
I told you for the 3rd time, to each is there own on whatever you believe in, no reason to get so antsy about it, come judgment day, your the one that has to answer,noone else. But don't you think that people that passed away that were close to you are not in a better place then here? Or do you think there nothing but dust in the wind? Don't you want them to be watching over you?
Becky47 - read what Roxanne wrote. The girl was going to get expelled and have to repeat 12th grade. This is her way out of it. It is not that difficult to walk out of the room, instead of making in a media circus. She attended church this year, and all sudden she changes her belief, kind of funny how that goes hand in hand with her upcoming expulsion. If she wanted to protest, you don't have to called lawyers,ACLU, tv, etc.....
And if she wants to be a atheist then fine, that's her choice, no problem with what people want to believe in.
Reality? That all mammals decompose. Atheists are moral so you can pretend it's us that are but it's not.
Life, I answered that your question presupposes that is an option I'd want to take. It's not physically hard to stand up and leave so you and all the others can do it. It's the principle. Yes, anyone can say what ever they want. I can say I served my country and I can say I'm jesus. Which is probable? They lived. I'm not getting antsy, I'm telling you no, you can't expect me to leave. I am sure my buried relatives are decomposing. I could pretend they are looking over me but I'm not going to believe that cause it's not based on anything. Wanting a story book to be true doesn't mean it's ok to think it is.
"Wanting a story book to be true doesn't mean it's ok to think it is."
You are right ! Expecting morality or ethics from the atheists who have no rules is too much to expect .
Why must you keep saying we don't have rules? do you mean we don't follow 3500 year old dogma? Yes, we gather our morals and ethics from parents, teachers, friends, society and not just a story. You don't either. The bible says stone adulterers and homosexuals but you don't do it.
Arguing with Stan is worse than arguing with a brick wall. Keep in mind he does not actually read your posts. He only scans them for a word to fuel his next diabtribe. I believe he's just a cleverly written religious spambot exisitng on a server in russia somewhere.
"Why must you keep saying we don't have rules?"
Because you dont ! Atheism is where anything goes . The norms of society are there to be trampled upon . A good point is where most have no problem with the protocols of the pledge but it repulses you .
"It's not physically hard to stand up and leave so you and all the others can do it. It's the principle."
What principle??? We have to let atheists protest it and such, why can't you just leave instead of raising hell about it? If you don't have the principle to accept that for the people who want to recite the pledge, then where are your morals? Why can't you just leave the room? No harm, no foul, over and done with, and no media circus involved.
And yes bodies decay, but I'm talking about the soul, the soul after your body dies, don't you feel you have a soul and if you do, then how do you think you received one? And with the soul comes the morals and respect for each other, without it your nothing but a shell.
Stan, sorry, it appears you aren't one to discuss things with. Those men were tyrannical dictators that oppressed all freedoms and that's why they killed, not because of atheism. Life, what part of I shouldn't have to leave don't you get? I'm not the one who is in the wrong for sitting. My morals come from not standing by while the Pledge is changed to a religious pledge which excludes atheists. There's no harm in dissent by sitting except to you because you don't like it which is not my problem. Soul? Find that on an anatomy chart otherwise I'll remain the view the soul is only in your mind.
I'm also in the company of 93% of the members of the National Academy of Science who are atheist/agnostic. The guys you mention weren't American so I don't count them like you don't count the Thirty Years War as you and your gang
The pledge of allegiance isn't a religious pledge, and never has been.
For a refresher: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
I'm not diagramming out the sentence structure here; it suffices to say there's a clear verb and subject and neither has to do with god.
Just because the word god is used in the pledge doesn't make it a religious statement either. Not any more than: "I pledge allegiance to the flag and god ate a hot dog."
If you want to nitpick on the language, at least know what you're nitpicking about.
The worst part about atheists is that they truly believe they're thinking outside the box, when all they've done is crawled into a different one.
Atheists have no soul ! No soul = no conscience !
The principles of science have nothing to do with supporting atheism . When the elements get broken down to particles of an atom then the order of the Universe is understood . That understanding shows a supreme power keeping order . Atheists love to be disorderly !
The problem I see in saying the "Pledge" is. When it says "Liberty and Justice for all". Americans dont know how to practice that simple phrase. So then why should one be forced to say the pledge ?
You people are ridiculously funny. I can't stop laughing.
yix, the pledge became religious when they added under god in the 50's. The worst thing about theists is they don't realize god is fictional. Atheism is linked to science in that there is no evidence, no proof, no test to show god is real. There is not order in the universe, just natural occurrences. Even if it appears to be designed you have to prove the designer not just say it's a conclusion automatically. knuckles, agreed and no one is forced to say the pledge that I know of. USA, I have not asked every atheist if he/she realizes man made global warming is a fact. Junk science? Go in your garage, close all the exterior doors, start the car and roll down the windows and let me know what happens. When you don't come back you'll convince me pollution kills in a controlled area.
TXatheist has a total lack of understanding .
Remove the cloud cover for one night and the heat radiates into space . So one could then assume that clouds were the culprit . Let's ban the clouds . But moisture is what the clouds consist of so we should ban water . The simple fact is that we can't even begin to generate heat on any scale to make a difference . Solar radiation warms the earth and it's output runs in cycles . Solar flare activity defines these cycles .
Spare us from the cold cycles ! Send the hollow souls of the atheists on their passing to fuel the flare cycles on the sun ! :)
When the self-actualizing work-shop is complete please return the pitchforks to the barn in case the hay manages to grow next year.
The School of Athletics and Manipulation.
TX - once again, no problem on what your beliefs are, but why can't you just leave the room if it bothers you so much to hear/say it. Is it over and done with if you leave the room? Yes, no issue. If you don't like a movie don't you leave the theater? If you don't like the service at a restaurant, don't you get up and leave? Now is it that hard to just walk out the room for 30 seconds, YES or NO? geez
How can you explain these? Just amazingly happened?
Unique location in our galaxy - co-rotation radius, Unique stabilization of the inner solar system,Unusually circular orbit of the earth, Axial tilt and eccentricity of orbit, The presence of an "impossibly" large moon, Unusually thin atmosphere, Slowing rotation makes advanced life possible, Van-Allen radiation shield is unique to Earth, Unique continental crust and tectonic activity, All other earth-sized planets will be either deserts or waterworlds, Reduction of greenhouse gases with increasing solar luminosity, The need for Jupiter-sized planets at 5 AU from its star.
"So then why should one be forced to say the pledge ?"
Noone is FORCED to say the pledge of allegiance, you can just walk out the room. Why is it so hard to understand that concept.
TXAtheist; okay - I give. Prove to me that the words 'Under God' make the pledge of allegiance a religious pledge. Here's the catch: no opinions or emotional arguments. I want solid proof that just by adding the words 'Under God' to the pledge, that it turned from a pledge of devotion to our country, to a pledge of devotion to god.
And, btw: science isn't driving your argument, cynicism is.
The only thing all religions agree on is that god is a supreme creative force. Obviously, this assumption is based on reality; creation exists. Whether it is the changing states of matter or the 'big bang' theory, objects (not on the molecular level, of course) are created and destroyed all the time.
Therefore, religion in general is correct when it comes to the existence of god - but only as a creative force. Which is great, because that's all theists can agree on about the matter anyway.
However, religion tends to assign sentient qualities to this creative force, and *that* is what has not been proven. So in that regard, if god is defined that way, then yes - god is fictional and atheists are correct.
The flaw in the theist logic is assigning sentient qualities because something exists.
The flaw in the atheist argument is nullifying the existence of something that exists because some group of people over there assigned it sentient qualities.
This is getting AWESOME.
Creationism has been shown to be false time and time again. There's just no merit and it belongs in a religious setting only.
Not caring about global warming because its bad for business and hurts the bottom line? ...I can respect that! But because it's "junk science"? That's silly. I'll be the first to admit the hippies go too far but to deny there isn't anything there at all? No way.
"Where did God come from? If we decide that this is an unanswerable question, why not save a step and conclude that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question. Or, if we say God always existed, why not save a step and conclude that the universe always existed. There's no need for a creation. It was always here."
Bonus points for me this time.
...I just answered that.
Order in the universe? When it took you god 4 B plus years to get humans on the planet he's either slow or mentally retarded as a designer. Also, the sun is now the right distance for human life but that will change as the earth gets farther from the sun. Or do you just ignore a designer that creates hurricanes or a tornado and call that order? If you believe in a creator and can't prove it I accept that but which creation myth is your favorite? http://www.magictails.com/creationlin... When I see a weed in my yard of beautiful grass do I think the weed god designed it that way? No, I study science to understand that weed seeds can get into my yard. Human lIfe on earth took 4 B years because a great number of events were required. Had they been slightly different we might not be here so the events in a certain fashion within nature allowed life like this just like a weed seed found it's way into my yard. No, but the atmosphere doesn't allow all c02 to escape so it's like having a running car in your garage. Global warming, it's man adding co2 to our atmosphere and causing the green house effect. LIfe2, I said you can leave the room, that's my answer. I don't have to stand and I don't have to recite the pledge. Got it? I won't do it. A gov't school is not a private movie theater, bad analogy. No one is forced to say the pledge or stand. What is so hard for you to understand I don't like under god and won't stand to make a point. How do I explain all that? Science starting with the Drake Equation. yix, where is the only place god exists? In religion. I'm familiar with mythology and gods are very different, especially in hinduism. Creation is a religious word, the planet and space exist but that means nature exists. The fact many religions have mighty force doesn't mean it's proven anything except a large number of people have an imaginary friend. The burden of proof is still on the theist. USA, I suggest you read up on creating initial amino acids. The universe was quarks and then a singularity which is not nothing. The energy in the singularity changed to the point of the big bang and life began.
Well stated TXathiest. Scientific, fair understanding of creation/evolution.
All of which I believe, too many theories, facts, mathamatics, artirfacts...for me to dispute.
But at the same time, something within me, tells me there is more than just our 60+ years on earth as we know it. Goes against the very science I believe in. I know, you get sick of the 'bible thumpers' that preach and cram it down the throats of others(as if that gets them any closer to their God).
Since I enjoy science and spend much of my time on my hobbie, science, I find myself saying there is no god/God ect...I dont follow any organized(political) religion. But in the face of facts, hard cold facts, I still believe there is something, a reason, a purpose, a progression. The reason why, FAITH. Thats what faith is. Faith would be the thing you know is impossable, but yet you just feel it, or know it inside.
You wont find me "thumping" because I dont pretend to know all as others do. Im HONEST about that where as others hide in fear of the unknown and cling to irrational believes and ignore facts. They agitate you dont they? So I do beleive there is a purpose and a progression forward. Call it God, god, whatever, but there is something.
"it's man adding co2 to our atmosphere and causing the green house effect."
The greenhouse gas effect is miniscule . Removing cloud cover for several nights causes extreme low temperature swings . The man made global warming myth is in the realm of political science !
And for those on the site that bash others r/t religion, YOU are the reason people distance themselves from your beliefs and/or religion.
You are to teach others, not drive them away.
Christ was a teacher. You are far from that, you drive people away as opposed to bring them to "the light" as you might put it.
And we HAVE gone through climate shifts mult times through out history(recorded or otherwise)
Of the thumpers, how many of you graduated anything. And I refer only to those that appear to remain concrete in thought.
(If you you have to ask what that meant, dont bother)
"I said you can leave the room, that's my answer. "
TX - finally got a answer, then why didn't Roxanne just get up and leave the room instead of calling the media? Not from being a so called atheist, but wanting attention and getting out of being expelled.
"The burden of proof is still on the theist."
Why is that? alot of respectable scientists/physics can't explain alot of things and come to the conclusion there are unknown reasons. We are made of atoms, protons neutrons and electrons, that's it, so why are you alive? Why is are a bunch of atoms alive? They themselves are not alive and if you had all the atoms necessary to make a living organism and the know how on how to organize them they would still not be alive. Faith allows for personal revelation and other, doubtless very powerful experiences unique to individuals that cannot be accepted by science due to their subjectivity.
TxAtheist; I think you may have missed my point.
Sentience - awareness, sensory perception - is a scientifically used quality to determine LIFE, not existence. There is a difference. If a child holding a stuffed rabbit determines the rabbit is feeling sad, the rabbit does not cease to exist based on the child's determination.
To that end, you can not disprove the existence of god based purely upon sentient qualities assigned by religion, as surely as theists can not prove that god exists based upon self-determined qualities of sentience. You may use evidence and statistics to prove god is not alive, or never lived, but it's simply not a qualifying factor for existence.
Once you've taken the quality of awareness and its resulting beliefs and rules out of the equation, you find the essence of what theists and atheists believe in is the same: you call it nature, they call it god.
USA, I really suggest you start studying science. The red shift and doppler effect to determine the rate of universe expansion allows us to figure out the age of the universe. Certain levels of c02 are harmless and even beneficial to plants. Just as you couldn't survive in a closed area like a garage with a car running or planet is susceptible to having too much c02. Al Gore is rich and so is big oil Exxon, much much richer. God is a sick being then. I wouldn't let you drown or walk out in front of a car but that's because I'm moral though Stan can't understand that is possible without god. There was no adam and eve. Do you believe in allah, brahman, zeus? I simply believe in one less god than you but you are atheist with regards to allah, not because of faith but because it's unbelievable(just like your god story). Atheists are fools? Forget you. Where has anyone mentioned taking rights from other kids? No one. Actually, those are bad analogies. I gave you a good analogy. No a 747 won't form but I could say eventually a weed will grown in the northwest corner of my yard which is statistics, just like our planet in the universe and in the Drake Equation(which you obviously didn't look up) it's very possible.
pitbull, I understand your view and get it when pantheists or deists tell me about their view, I just don't insert the word god because xians and muslims also think god is the god who inspired the koran/bible. Stan, the greenhouse effect better be minimal because otherwise it will get real hot real fast and why we should reduce pollution.
Life, I said it before but you didn't hear the answer then again either. Roxanne should not think of leaving the room but that's her choice to leave, stand, sit or do nothing. Part of the reason to let the media know is so others can sit if they choose and maybe more will. The burden is on you because you say god is real and with no proof I say it's in your head. There is still energy/electricity in atoms and that's why we are alive. yix, I can't disprove the tooth fairy either. I get your point but nature doesn't say mother nature can take dust and blow into and make man or take the man's rib and make a woman. When you make god more than just the first cause and the inspiration for holy books you made god personal and not just a idea.
TXatheist :
"God is a sick being then. I'm moral though"
Satan has spoken !
Here's a little history of the pledge. Its writer might have sided with the dissenting student.
In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. (NEA) As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892.
He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'
His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]
In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change.
He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.
"Part of the reason to let the media know is so others can sit if they choose and maybe more will."
So everytime someone wants to protest they should call the media and get lawyers and the ACLU involved? Isn't that overkill? Isn't that just plain dumb? If you have to get the media involved your nothing but a attention-getter, looking for a excuse to get your 15 minutes of fame. So If I'm working at Walmarts and don't want to say the Walmart pledge (which if you go to a walmarts they do say it after there meetings on the floors) then I can call the media and protest it, because I don't believe in it? I'm sure the millions that work for walmarts will follow behind me. Unreal.
There is still energy/electricity in atoms and that's why we are alive.
Atoms are not alive.
How do you explain Carbon when even notable scientists/chemists/etc can't. Carbon is the most vital element for living beings, because all living organisms are constructed from compounds of carbon. Numerous pages would not be enough to describe the properties of the carbon atom, which is extremely important for our existence. Nor has the science of chemistry yet been able to discover all of its properties.
David Burnie- Life
"Carbon is a very unusual element. Without the presence of carbon and its unusual properties, it is unlikely that there would be life on Earth."
British chemist Nevil Sidgwick - Chemical Elements and Their Compounds
"Carbon is unique among the elements in the number and variety of the compounds which it can form. Over a quarter of a million have already been isolated and described, but this gives a very imperfect idea of its powers, since it is the basis of all forms of living matter."
Stan, satan is just like god and the tooth fairy. hellsbells, all great points about Mr. Bellamy, the socialist christian. Life, yes. At FFRF there is an old but true saying, it pays to complain, with regards to constitutional violations. We both know what is plain dumb, it's the fundies that want a religious pledge. I don't think you still have a clue about private versus public. The Boy Scouts can be bigots against gays and atheists because they are private. Public schools are not private. Atoms are not alive? What happened to the energy? Did that organism die? Then yes, those atoms don't have energy anymore. USA, paying taxes is good for our general welfare. Yes, I am comparing a natural event like a weed to earth but not to a human created object, the 747. A cell couldn't be the product of evolution? Please elaborate using science. Abandon your ignorance of science.
USA, it's not that complicated for evolution to have produced it but you can show me how that's wrong. Statistics isn't proof, it's math. It's not accident, it's nature. Cells changing and energy changing is natural not an accident. Darwin was not a believer after his daughter died.
This is what happens when threads get too old. This thread has gone way off topic.
USA, please cite the entire paragraph from Origin of Species because I"m pretty sure I know what you are trying to pull of and it was Darwin asking a rhetorical question and then he answered it. Con men looking for fame(like televangelists who can heal) do manipulate and lie. Carbon dating can be accurate just like potassium argon is. You are reading false reports by YEC who say those things, not scientific communities of peer reviewed reports. Nope, Darwin didn't, that's more lies from the religious nuts. No scientist asks people to have faith, you are a liar.
"Atoms are not alive? "
Tx: I think you need to go back and study more on Chemistry 101.
A atom is most emphatically not alive - it cannot do one of the most fundamental of living process, that is replicate itself. It needs to be part of a living cell to do that. ex: rocks are made up of atoms and so is life that makes them the same and rocks are alive, right? Do rocks have amino acids? Do rocks metabolize? As far as I'm aware they don't but because they're made up of atoms you think they're alive (despite the other differences). Why can't you just ignore all the differences and say that because a car tire and a rock are made up of atoms they are both the same thing? Life or "not life" is merely a human hang up. Again, the cosmos can't be bothered by our perceptions of what is, or isn't. It's fun to debate based on man-made concepts of what life is, or is not, or what an atom is part of, or is not, but, at the end of any given day, it really only matters to people who delude themselves into believing they have it all figured out. They don't, and, in fact, cannot ever do so. Thus, the debate is a token jest, at best, and wasted time, at worst. Atoms are inanimate particles.
"I don't think you still have a clue about private versus public."
Yes, I do know the difference, and it seems to me if your going to protest something you don't need the media involved, if what your protesting you should do it on your own, just like this 14 year old in Chicago:
At her first high school student council meeting, she raised her hand and said she didn't want "God Bless America" to be among the songs played in the hallways during homecoming week.
"If you want to listen to 'God Bless America,' you can download it onto your iPod and listen to it in the middle of class," she said.
"You can't force me to listen to it, because it's not secular. It's not what I believe, so I would appreciate it if you took it off the list. Thank you." The song was stricken from the playlist with little discussion. Simple and down to earth, unlike Roxanne.
No, but rocks are compressed minerals in that same fashion as a vehicle to life. I do not have it all figured out either. Particles to something larger, life. I don't handle things the way you think I should though it could happen. Gee, when I called the superintendent of my school district 2 years ago and said allowing the high school class to ignore the law and let the seniors vote if they wanted a prayer at graduation I was ignored. Simple and down to earth, but ignored. If people were simple and down to earth they wouldn't believe in god.
It is not a State law as in the case of Chandler v. Siegelman.
C. Eleventh Circuit Decisions
1. Chandler v. Siegelman
Permitting students to speak religiously signifies neither state approval nor disapproval of that speech. The speech is not the State's - either by attribution or by adoption. The permission signifies no more than that the State acknowledges its constitutional duty to tolerate religious expression. Only in this way is true neutrality achieved.
Id. at 1317. The court concluded that it is "not the public context that makes some speech the State's. It is the entanglement with the State . . . . Therefore if >nothing in the Constitution prohibits . . . any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day,= Santa Fe, 120 S.Ct. at 2281, then it does not prohibit prayer aloud or in front of others, as in the case of an audience assembled for some other purpose." Id. at 1316-17.
Off to work, will respond to the latter comment sometime.....everyone have a Happy Thanksgiving!
USA, uh, no, evolution is now accepted in most industrialized countries but the US is lagging. Anybody that says heaven is real is a con man. Evolutionists depend on evidence which is tested, verified and repeatable in a lab. Darwin didn't believe in evolution? Gee, the men who made up the bible didn't believe in god too then. Darwin didn't renounce it except in circles among fundamentalists who lie and say otherwise. I would have found 100's of places but I thought I'd go to the most fundamental websites to show you your error on Darwin...http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2009/03/31/darwins-deathbed-conversion-legend
Life2, I agree. It's why students can give a report or include jc in a speech but not sanctioned by the staff/school. It's also why a student can say god is imaginary and nothing but a myth. That point is why Santa Fe Texas football prayers were stopped but kids still pray on their own, just not led by the coach. Mind you Santa Fe Texas prayed way before the court case and way after and still never win. Intercessory prayer is useless.
Seriously... stop... You have good points about global warming being a religion in it's own right. I agree with you there 100%. But on just about every major point you're wrong. It's one thing to question but it's another to ignore the truth just because it's spoken by your ideological opposite. I'm no fan of the smelly Obama hippies either but I am a fan of the 90%+ scientific community backing man-made global warming.
Also, as far as our acceptance of creationism being a good thing, the only other countries that are staunch believers in creationism are places like Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Not my idea of intelligent company.
USA, if you believe the bible is history you don't have any common sense. It tells me you are ignorant with regards to science and a disgrace intellectually.
"Evolution was even dismissed by Charles Darwin"
What does that mean by the way?
What in the heck is junk science? That cracks me up. Damn junk mathematics too. LOL. I think you mean junk meth labs I guess.
TX, it is a historical document. Fables are told, yes, but it is one of the oldest recorded texts. And Jesus was one of the most(if not the most) influential political/spiritual leaders in history. He changed the course of history. Of course, organized religion twisted and used his teachings for their own agendas. I try to look at the bible as just that, historical in nature. Nobody has to believe he is the son of God to realize that.
However, those people that play holly-er than thou and the fire and brimstone scare tactics illicets a negative emotion in others. They make it impossible for people to appreciate it. So I understand your stance and response to some, but come on now, he did do alot. Dont let the "thumpers" win. Many many great people through out history, spiritaul or not, he is one of them. I just wish people who do beleive could approach the subject like adults. But most dont.
I applaud her conviction to her principles. The original pledge did not have "under god" in it. It was added in the 1950s during the Red Scare.
A person can be a good ethical/moral American Patriot and not believe in god.
I'm Agnostic and I served my country so I dare anyone to call me unpatriotic for refusing to say the pledge or stand as long as it has dogmatic nonsense contained with in it.
America was formed by Christians for Christians and with a tolerance toward others . Now the others don't want to tolerate us Christians .
Stan, that is not true. But you do illustrate the wild generalizations that posters make when this kind of incident takes place.
Someone said it was the "end of America". Give me a break. The vast majority of students recite the Pledge of Allegiance daily.
I included here, lost in the theological discussion that has since dominated the thread, the story of the author of the Pledge. It was his intention simply to have an event to mark a centennial observance. He never would have wanted to keep children out of school for not saying it.
don't forget that "under God" wasn't added until the 1950s or so
hellsbells :
Pssstttt . .... Can I tell you something ?
OK , I will anyhow . YOU ARE THE TAIL THAT WANTS TO WAG THE DOG !
"I'm Agnostic and I served my country so I dare anyone to call me unpatriotic for refusing to say the pledge or stand as long as it has dogmatic nonsense contained with in it."
Why say that on here, why not go tell the veterans of the wars and the families that lost there loved ones that? Look them straight in the eyes and tell them? Go to the VA hospital and look around and tell them that? Now that would really be interesting and I'm sure they would support you. ouch.
"A person can be a good ethical/moral American Patriot and not believe in god."
Why can't it be the God of your understanding?
" I applaud her conviction to her principles."
What principles? She was only doing this to get out of getting expelled for her senior year. I respect people and there beliefs but this one, nah! She was doing this for attention, nothing more nothing less, and if you applaud people like this, that is sad. You should applaud the ones that make a DIFFERENCE not the attention getters.
"Happy Thanksgiving" everyone, unless you think thanksgiving is a conspiracy to, then just ignore the comment.
"It amazes me the overbearingness today of fringe elements to label the United States a Christian Country."
It amazes me that the fringe elements want to take over and eliminate Christianity ! IN GOD WE TRUST IS STILL ON OUR CURRENCY !
"Atheists make up 0.2% of the prison population."
The seem to find God when they are in prison . Many come into the prison system but very few atheists are on death row !
"What does a student learn in 11th and 12th grade today"
Why not check the state of Ohio's academic content standards to answer your question?
Home schooling is a great choice for a small number of people.
pitbull, the fundies have circulated a lie saying Darwin denounced evolution and accepted god on his death bed. The stories, yes stories, of jesus are influential and mostly because of one very important fact. Contstantine declared xianity the official religion and MIthra was replaced as the one true risen savior god in the 4th century. Had that not happened xianity would as popular as wicca at best. The ideas of jesus have influenced us greatly and usually for bad. The do gooders would be good with or without religion but I get your point. When xianity is presented as mythology like any other religion I"m fine but when it's the "true" religion and others are false I explain why that's arrogant. Stan, the FF were Deists from the Enlightenment Era who read Voltaire and John Locke and were aware of the Inquisitions and Crusades so they purposely created a secular government with freedom of religion and freedom of speech so it' s clear they saw the need to not create a xian nation. Life, when I do go to fourth of july parades or veteran ceremonies I do wear my blue Navy baseball cap that say's Navy Rescue Swimmer and my friendly neighborhood atheist t-shirt. I don't cower because of my atheism/veteran status. Why would I want to find god? I don't see any need. Sam Harris makes good points about watering down god. Life, standing up for atheists and gays is not about attention, it's about standing up to bigotry. STan, I cross out god on my paper currency. Stan, there aren't atheists on death row because we actually do understand morality. paulb, my 7th grade nephew's parents can't understand the material for his science class, we NEED public schools. firstname.lastname@example.com
"Why would I want to find god? I cross out god on my paper currency. "
I see that you have found Christianity on currency . Trying to eliminate the evidence of a Christian Nation ?
"Stan, there aren't atheists on death row because we actually do understand morality."
They come into the prison system as atheists . The lack of morality is evidenced by the the murder that they have commited . When it is time for them to get the same fate ( death ) as their victim they find God .
"Life, standing up for atheists and gays is not about attention, it's about standing up to bigotry."
What part don't you read in my comments. I said I respect people who believe in whatever they believe in, that is there choice, that is why we live in America, but in this case, Roxanne is not one of those. Roxanne is a attention getter to not get expelled! She is the one making a fool of the ones that applaud her, due to the fact all she wants is attention in this case. No more, no less. Applaud the ones that try to make a difference instead of the ones that want media attention. That is a big difference because if you keep doing that, you will get copy cats and then who do you believe is standing up for what they believe in or just wanting attention.
Wanting attention is not the same as not wanting to miss instruction.
Rudy56. America is disappearing,what will be left? Rudy have you ever heard of Christmas ! It's all part of America's Ponzi !
Stan, or correcting mccarthyism. Stan, no atheists don't go to prison or very rarely. USA, great job at a ad hominem on her looks. Life, I read that but my beliefs include not standing for a religious pledge. More will not stand? Fine by me.
"Stan, no atheists don't go to prison or very rarely. "
Plenty of atheists go to prison . They had no parameters when it came to their urges . There are no moral boundries within atheism . Society chose not to allow them the freedom to continue expanding their horizons . What is amusing is the fact that they claim to find God while they are in prison . This is most eveidenced on death row .
No Stan, all the bad people are xians. USA, they were dictators who oppressed all freedoms. None of them killed for atheism, just control. The Holocaust, Thirty Years War, Inquisition and Crusades were bad too and done by theists but were freedom oppressors just like the atheist leaders.
No TXatheist, those without moral boundries have no limit to what mayhem they can cause and are atheists !
USA, because there were no heretics alive. Ask Giordano Bruno or Thomas Paine or Galileo what happens if you speak out against the church? Of course xians are guiilty and they were bad humanists. I'm "angry" that we live in an industrialized society with access to information and yet many still don't realize god is imaginary and the bible just folklore. No Stan, only xians are bad. American Atheists are good and moral.
No TXatheist , the atheists are blind to the truth and morality . No rules = no standards in which to live by .
Pat Tillman was an atheist and he sacrificed everything including his life for his country.
Unlike the "Christians" Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld who disgracefully lied about his death to keep their sheep in line.
People that call themselves patriots and then speak out against freedom of speech, expression, religion, decent and anything else THEY don't believe in are the worst of America.
USA, the Bush Administration tried to cover up Tillman's death because he was killed by friendly fire. You know the right that says they are moral but aren't just like Stan, the guy who can't understand morality comes not from a horrible book written 3500 years ago but teachers, parents, family and friends.
"Hitler, mussolini, himmler, goebles, lenin, stalin, pol pot were atheists, or at least said they were atheists.
They surely did humanity a lot of good."
While this is a fair point, (and sadly someone else already brought this up,) comparing the evils committed by these "atheists" pales in comparison to the numbers of afflicted in the name of Christianity (or even other religions) throughout history.
I don't think you can pin murder and crime on atheism or a belief in a God. I think you can pin it on a lack of respect for humanity, regardless of where its genesis is.
TXatheist :
"You know the right that says they are moral but aren't just like Stan"
I place atheists on the same level as those immoral people who abort children . You people have no grasp on the concept of morality .
USA, atheism is a religion as much as bald is a hair color. We have no dogma, no deity, no holy book...not a religion. They were cruel dictators who killed for power, not atheism. Stan, maybe you should look up statistics for planned parenthood because 70% of the abortions are on white xians. I've never aborted a kid so I'm moral.
"So the above mentioned murders weren't a murderous as Christians? Hitler murdered 10M, Stalin, 60M, Pol Pot, 2M."
As was mentioned before, examine the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, as well as pretty much the entire formation of modern Europe. There aren't too many figures and estimates on numbers because it happened over centuries.
TB, a counter point I have to fundies is the Thirty Years War was a religious war and while there weren't as many deaths it's because the world population was much less than today's 6 B plus.
Bald is a hair color. How does an atheist worship ritual of no god play out? Your god drown everyone but noah's family like a good un-christian.
USA, dogma doesn't change and yet some famous atheists do change their mind like Anthony Flew but he's a deist so I get his god. I know that my 6 year old believes in santa but like every other educated person he will outgrow that belief like I did with god. I substantiate my lack of belief in god because of zero evidence or logic. Can you name one group of atheists that acknowledge Origin of Species is their holy book? How does one worship evolution? Do we pray over a fossil? Who are you talking to when you say "did everyone detect" ? It's just me and you and your imaginary friend god. Real men don't run from god but real stupid men believe in god.


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260 MPH COPO Camaro Texas Mile CarMarch 30th, 2016
Take a gander at this awesome Texas Mile Car built as a collaborative effort by the crew at Nelson Racing Engines (NRE) and Brink Racecraft. When a race car project begins with a brand-new COPO Camaro, it is usually going to morph into something amazing. This project certainly makes the grade. Add a massive 632-cubic-inch NRE big block, a pair of NRE Mirror Image 88-millimeter turbochargers, an NRE Alien intake manifold, and you have an elite level Texas Mile monster. This Chevy also has an intricate dry-sump oiling system with the reservoir in the trunk, dual fuel supply systems, and Read More


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Life Dept. of Homeland Security
posted by April 16 at 13:40 PMon
It looks like I have to weed my t-shirt collection.
This morning my son walked into the kitchen, where I was downloading email on my laptop, and said, "Go to Medicaltoys.com, dad."
Excuse me… what? Why would a nine year-old want to go to Medicaltoys.com? How would a nine-year old even know about Medicaltoys.com, the "largest provider of medical toys, products and apparel for the medical fetish, nurse fetish and the medical BDSM scene on the web"?
It took me a split second to realize that I was standing there in my black Medicaltoys.com t-shirt. The nice folks that run the nation's premiere medical fetish website sent me a couple of t-shirts after I mentioned them in a "Savage Love" column a couple of years back. My kid assumed it was a toy store—a toy store that specializes in toys for, you know, playing doctor. And it is. But it's for adults that want to play doctor with speculums, medical restraints, catheters, etc.
My Medicaltoys.com t-shirts are two of my favorites. But it looks like they have to go. There's no end to the sacrifices we parents have to make.


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