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Skip to comments.Can a Person Be Saved Without Jesus?
Posted on 01/16/2010 8:23:23 AM PST by Colofornian
This week's Bible study dealt with a question some Christian folks asked before the start of our meeting: Can someone who has the Torah and lives obediently to it be saved if they don't accept Jesus as Savior?
We approached this in three steps:
What is meant by Torah observant?
What is the difference between Jesus and Yeshua?
What is meant by being saved as related to Messiah?
First, we discussed that being Torah observant means to obey the written word of Elohim, not the traditions of men that have come in and taken a place alongside His Word. To be Torah observant means to obey the commandments, judgments, statutes and instructions of Elohim as He gave them to Moshe (Moses) and subsequently recorded in the Torah.
Next we discussed if Yeshua taught that the Torah should be observed or obeyed? In Matthew 5:17 Yeshua said during His Sermon on the Mount:
Do not think that I am come to destroy the law [Torah], or the prophets [Nevi'im]; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
When someone teaches that Jesus did away withdestroyedthe Torah, they are saying in effect that He lied; when He actually said that He did not come to do away with the Torah. He said He came to fill up the Torah and Prophets with meaning and to interpret them correctly. The terms fulfill and destroy are rabbinical terms that mean to explain correctly or incorrectly respectively.
We see Yeshua filling up the meaning of the Written Word when He says in Matthew 5:21,22:
You have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment. But I say to you...
Since Elohim said that His people are to keep His commandments forever (Exodus 31:16, Leviticus 16:31, 23:21), to say that Jesus did away with the Torahand the commandments in itplaces Him in the category that Moshe taught in Deuteronomy 13:1,2:
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other godswhich you have not knownand let us serve them.
Moshe cautioned not to believe that prophet:
You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for YHVH your Elohim is testing you to know whether you love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after YHVH your Elohim and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.(Deuteronomy 13:3,4)
So when a person comes to a Torah follower and quotes Jesus as saying:
...that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised... (Luke 7:22b)
and at the same time says that Jesus did away with the Old Testament commandmentsthis is a red flag to the Torah observant believer. Jesus, according to Moshe, must then be a false prophet if He does signs and wonders and teaches not to keep the commandments in the Torah.
Second, is there a difference between Jesus and Yeshua? Do the two names identify the same person? Jesus (Ιησους) is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name Yeshua (ישוע). In this sense, it is the name in a non-native language for the same Person. But when it is contrasted that Yeshua of the New Testament kept the Torah, instructed His followers to keep the Torah, taught the Torah, and did all the signs and wondersthat's different.
The problem arises when the names Jesus and Yeshua are used interchangeably. On one hand, the modern church refers to their Jesus as a Prophet who annulled the Torah and taught their people not to follow the commandments in the Torahthus this would make the Jesus that is usually taught by many Christian missionaries and teachers a false prophet according to the teachings of Moshe. The Torah explicitly warns the followers of YHVH not to listen to this kind of false prophet.
The third question is about the Messiah. Again, the name of Jesus is tied to the Christian Christ. Many Torah followers make a distinction between the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah. The Jewish Messiah is a central figure in biblical thought. Many of the figures in the TaNaKh (Old Testament) looked forward to and had faith in the coming Messiah. The binding of Isaac is a prime shadow of the Messiah. Abraham looked forward to the Messiah:
God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son. [See all of Genesis 22:814]
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son...that Elohim was able to raise him from the dead... (Hebrews 11:17 [OT Genesis 22:12])
And the Scripture, foreseeing that Elohim would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, In you all the nations shall be blessed. (Galatians 3:8 [OT Genesis 12:3])
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed Elohim, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of Elohim. (James 2:23 [OT Genesis 15:6])
As did Jacob:
So Jacob called the name of the place Peni'el, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved. (Genesis 32:30)
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people. (Genesis 49:10)
For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; (Job 19:25)
Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions. (Psalm 45:6,7)
David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. (Ezekiel 37:24)
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:25,26)
Their Redeemer is strong; YHVH of hosts is His name. He will thoroughly plead their case, that He may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon. (Jeremiah 50:34)
Our Redeemer; YHVH of Hosts is His name, the Holy One of Israel. (Isaiah 47:4)
In the modern church the Christ often taught under the name of Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah of the Scriptures. The Christian Christ Jesuschanged the unchangeable commandments, statutes and judgments of Elohim. He also violated the Torah, according to many teachers. If Jesus violated the Torah, then He sinned. If He sinned, He was not sinless. If He wasn't sinless, He was not a Perfect Sacrifice for our sins.
The real Messiah of the Scripturesthe Jewish Messiahdid not sin. He kept the Torah to the letter, He taught the Torah, and He was born, grew up, lived, died, and was raised againa Torah-observant Jew.
So can a person be saved without Jesus or the Christian Christ? The answer we came up with in our study isyesif the question relates to the Jesus or the Christian Christ usually preached in the modern church.
But, can a person be saved without the Jewish Messiahthe Torah-observant Jew in the Scriptures Who is the Savior, the Redeemer, and the Perfect Sacrifice for sin? No!
With this knowledge, according to the prophet Ezekiel, he points out in Ezekiel 18 that each person needs to set his life on-course based on what the Torah says. Excerpts from verses of this chapter state:
But if a man be just, and does what is lawful and right...If he has walked in My statutes and kept My judgments faithfullyhe is just; he shall surely live!...the soul who sins shall die... Ezekiel 18:5,9,20.
Ezekiel continues in verse 20 that if the wicked person who repentsturns from his sin to righteousnesswill live. But in verse 24 if the righteous person who turns from righteousness to wickednesswill die. The Hebrew word for righteous is tzadik (צדיק) meaning straight, as in the narrow way. And the word for wicked is rasha (רשע) meaning off the path, as in wide is the way that leads to destruction.
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13,14)
In both Ezekiel and Matthew the life spoken of is more than physical existence. They are discussing Eternal Life, salvation. The gate by which we gain entrance to the path of salvation is the atonement of our Sacrifice Yeshua. The path of salvation is obedience to the commandments, judgments and statutes of Elohim.
It is up to each of us to choose our path in life, the way of the world or the way of Elohim. If you choose to follow the Elohim of the Biblewhich Messiah will you followthe fabled Torah-denying Christ of the modern church who, according to Moshe and the Torah, was a false prophet and leads to eternal death and separation from YHVH our Elohim. Or, the Torah-observant Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah)the true Jewish Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament and Whose earthly life is recorded in the New Testamentand Who provides eternal life as the Perfect Sacrifice for our sinsthe only path for salvation.
Yeshua said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)
Romans2:12-17 pretty much covers it!
This merciful God you believe in has promised to throw Satan into a lake of fire for all eternity. Do you think he will not do this because he is benevolent? I don't believe God will break his words to his creation nor to himself.
I'd rather hang out with Thomas Jefferson and Jimmy Hendrix than losers like Martin Luther and John Calvin.
I'd imagine that if the Christian vision of heaven is true, everyone in heaven probably has an excrement-eating Joel Osteen type grin on their face, where you praise the dear Leader 24-7. It would be like going to a really lame party.
Well, I said Jewish, not messianic...unless of course you mean moshiach, as annointed in the sense of David, Solomon et al, past and to come, though with no sense of divinity.
There is nothing to joke about. It is forever.
How do you know? Have you been there?
Having said that, you assert that "Yeshua" is not correct. You did not offer the "correct" name. So, what is it, do you think?
It's what we have in the source documents.
And what does your pastor preach to you from the Bible (the first 3/4 of which, of course, is the sacred book of the Jews and existed for hundreds of years before Jesus was born)?
Or is your pastor silent on this topic?
Just curious.
Romans2:12-16 (pretty straight forward)...
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
ah yes, no man cometh to the father except through Jesus.
But at the last judgement, when non Christians ask: And when did we give you drink or food, Christ will say if you did it for the least of my brethren you do it for me.
Jesus can save those who don't know him if they are trying to serve the Father as best they know how.
Jesus stated he was the "I AM", meaning He was God:
No. God is One. He kept emphasizing this but who listens. The Jews haven't fallen for the man-god trinity. And true prophets were abused/run off/slain for failing to deliver happy-happy-joy-joy messages. Nothing new under the sun.
The false prophets of christianity operate the same as the MSM - what is the truth and what is claimed by the "reporters" are two different things.
Torah is truth and is the foundation of the universe which was *spoken* into existence by God. Action. Reaction. Reflexive action. Passive = "fallen". Etc. The seven binyanim of wisdom, as it were.
Jesus can save those who dont know him if they are trying to serve the Father as best they know how."
I don't see how anyone can truly be "trying to serve the Father as best they know how" and not know Jesus.
I think I'll believe God and not men.
Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
18For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.
19For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.
20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)
You dismiss the Gospels; I consider them documentation of the fulfillment of the Torah and the story of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles.
We will each find out who is right when we die.
My prayer is that neither of us find we were wrong when/if we meet our Maker.
How to live in order to enable the Creator in His loving kindness to provide His foregivness is outlined in Tankh ( the Jewish Bible) ; and was also taught by the first century Ribi Yehoshua from Nazareth (the Mashiakh; the Messiah) (His teachings are found here: www.netzarim.co.il )
Tankh for example Yekhëzqeil (Hezekiel) 18 promises foregiveness to those and only those who do their sincerest to keep the mitzwot (directive or military-style orders ) in Torah. The Creator cannot lie and He does not change (Malakhi 3:6)!
Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh lived and kept Torah with the sincerest of his heart, died innocently and became a sacrifice. Because of that the Creator can give His foregiveness for the short comings (in keeping Torah) to everyone doing his/her sincerest to keep His instructions found in Torah, and to everyone turning away from their Torah-breaches to instead starting to do their sincerest to keep the instructions in Torah.
Living in the above described way until one dies implies that the Creator will continue to give His forgiveness during ones whole life, which will keep ones nephesh (psyche) in a connection with the Creator, which will lead to ha-olam haba (which Christians would call heaven). While not living in the above described way, according to Yekhezeqeil, wont lead to ha-olam haba.
Thus the Christian doctrine found in Joh 14:6 contradicts Torah.
Anders Branderud
Whether Yeshua, Yeshuwa,Yhowshua, or Yeshoshua. all are variants of the same name and how they were sounded out is not known for certain, so the use of the familiar English pronunciation "Jesus" makes sense.
"Would you say that the Arabic word "Allah" is the same as the Almighty of the Bible?"
So, you are saying that His name is "Ιησους" - how does that become "Jesus"?
No, I'm saying that's what we have.
The Holy Spirit saw fit to produce the New Testament documents in Koine Greek, through the hands of the various writers. It becomes "Gee-zus" through a quirk of the English language. Most places, it's something close to "Yay-soo".
Unless one is a native Hebrew speaker, obsessing about using "Yeshua" is a bit odd.
What language did the people of Galilee speak in the First Century?
Aramaic and Greek.
Silliness. God is unlimited. This is all just an example of the arrogance of man.
Simply put, if Jesus = God then there cannot be any differences.
But the differences between God and Jesus are abundant, therefore Jesus does not equal God.
Was God born? No Jesus was.
Can God be tempted with evil? No, but Jesus was.
Did God tell people that Jesus was his begotten son in which he was well pleased? Yes. Do you think God knows who he is and who Jesus is? I'd say so....so why would you argue with God Almighty?
the Old Testament no longer applies. Fire and Brimstone has left the Earth on that day that the sins of the World were cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.
It is written from that day forward that no man shall enter the kingdom of Heaven except through him.
There is not much more to interpret here.
You must not understand clearly what the bible teaches.
That is what you claim.
We will each find out who is right when we die.
That you are waiting for the truth to hit you after you die doesn't mean others are. You believe that you won't know until you die, yet you go ahead and teach. Not exactly credible.
My prayer is that neither of us find we were wrong when/if we meet our Maker.
In a universe run on truth and order, things must make sense. Opposites are not the same. Three does not equal one and so forth. Truth is its own defense and does not require a false sense of security in numbers.
You say that God is Three while the Bible says that God is One.
You say that Jesus is God while the Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God.
You say that there is a Holy Trinity while the Bible says nothing about any trinity.
God said that Jesus was his son.
The Bible says that God is invisible, yet Jesus was seen by many.
The Bible says that Jesus was born, Jesus lived, Jesus was tempted, Jesus died, and then God raised Jesus from the dead.
The Bible says that Jesus is seated at God's right hand.
You seem to say that the words Jesus and God are interchangable, that there is no difference in the beings they represent.
Your opinions are not borne out in the Bible.
All it takes is one difference between Jesus and God and they are not the same.
[plsjr:] You dismiss the Gospels
[plsjr:] We will each find out who is right when we die.
[plsjr:] My prayer is that neither of us find we were wrong when/if we meet our Maker.
| "You really need to do some personal research on what the words "I am" mean in each of those contexts instead of regurgitating error ridden lessons you've been taught.
The Old Testament is in Hebrew and the source for John is in Greek. Direct correlation of the words are a matter of men's opinion, and as it turns out, unnecessary.
The two following citations provide the context for what was intended in God's and Jesus' statements:
Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.
As you can see, God intended Himself to be identified with "I AM" for all posterity.
(Jesus Speaking in John 8, where he identifies Himself to the Pharisees/Jews repeatedly as "I am":)
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Jesus was saying that He was the One who preexisted Abraham using the everlasting self-reference God specified to Moses.
The Pharisees/Jews knew exactly what he was saying and attempted to attack him (unsuccessfully).
Please help me identify my errors/misconceptions/misunderstanding.
|Simply put, if Jesus = God then there cannot be any differences.
But the differences between God and Jesus are abundant, therefore Jesus does not equal God.
Was God born? No Jesus was.
Can God be tempted with evil? No, but Jesus was.
You've oversimplified in an attempt to make your case, using what is called a 'straw-man' argument.
Of course God≠Jesus in the mathematical sense. (I'm guessing it's more like Jesus∋God)
Again in Exodus:
Exodus 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.
Exodus 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exodus 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I.
The conclusions that could be drawn from this passage are:
(b)Both The Angel of the Lord and God occupied the vicinity of the bush.
I'm of the opinion (held as well by others) that they were two aspects of one entity, one of those aspects being He who appears as Immanuel.
I'm open to other perspectives as I realize this is but an opinion and subject to human error.
|Did God tell people that Jesus was his begotten son in which he was well pleased? Yes. Do you think God knows who he is and who Jesus is? I'd say so....so why would you argue with God Almighty?
I don't, I trust in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
No, only a misrepresentation of the definition of the Trinity as found in the Bible.
John 1:1* ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
The Bible tells us they are the same.
I wasn't aware that the word Trinity was anywhere in the Bible!
And what about the phrase 'god the son'? Where is that in the Bible?
Seems you have to use unBiblical words because you're describing an unBiblical concept.
God is invisible, and Jesus was the visible representation of God, right?
Wasn't it God Almighty who identified Jesus as his (God's) son?
We can keep it real simple...God is God, Christ is Christ and one is not really three.
The problem with your interpretation is that it flagrantly ignore clear verses that contradict it.
God is not a man that he should lie...nor the son of man that he should repent
God is one; there is only one God
God cannot be tempted with evil
God is spirit; God is invisible
Jesus was/is a man and the Son of Man
Jesus was tempted in all ways
Jesus was visible and in the flesh.
God said that Jesus was his son and Jesus said that God was his father, yet you want to call both of the liars!
Me? I like to believe that Jesus is God's only begotten son who was conceived by a virgin, born and lived a life that fulfilled the law and prophesies of the Messiah, died and was resurrected after three days and nights, and then ascended to sit on the right hand of God.
Neither will you find the word "Bible" either - does that negate it? Is the principle taught. To take you logic further - "omniscience" which means "all-knowing," "omnipotence" which means "all-powerful," and "omnipresence" which means "present everywhere," are words not found in the Bible either, but we use them to describe the attributes of God. Therefore it is not necessary to see a specific word in the bible when that corresponding concept is found true.
And what about the phrase 'god the son'? Where is that in the Bible?
See above - scripture attributes him the title of "Son of God" and God the Son describes His position in the trinity.
We can keep it real simple...God is God, Christ is Christ and one is not really three.
So you are advocating polytheism - interesting.
OK, so you call the Apostle John a liar then. Only by twisting those 'other' verses can you come to your conclusion. Then again, to prove your point you de facto render the bible worthless to cite.
I find it sad that by eliminating an honest representation of the doctrine of the Trinity is the only mean available for you to use. Jesus claimed the title "I AM" preexisting before Abraham, he claims the title "Alpha and Omega", cited to God. Jesus accepted the worship of Thomas (my Lord and God).
The prophet spoke of Jesus saying Emmanuel, and in another "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isa 9:6)
God said that Jesus was his son and Jesus said that God was his father, yet you want to call both of the liars!
That they referenced each other by their position in the Trinity is no wonder - Jesus was 100% God and 100% man
Me? I like to believe that Jesus is God's only begotten son who was conceived by a virgin, born and lived a life that fulfilled the law and prophesies of the Messiah, died and was resurrected after three days and nights, and then ascended to sit on the right hand of God.
Why a virgin - you make Jesus out to be no different from any other prophet - as such nothing special about His birth was necessary. LOL, you are sounding like a mormon and God having sex with Mary in accordance with Greek theology. LOL, speaking of ignoring verses, Jesus over and over again links Himself to a pre-existence with God the Father. Your postings are full of serious misconceptions and statements as to who Jesus is.
Please explain to me why you wrote "That is what you claim". as opposed to either explaining what you meant or admitting my assertion that you deny the Gospels is true. (Parsing words betrays the intent to confuse and deceive if that was your purpose, your forthrightness in this discussion is suspect.)
How hard is this? Geez, it is exactly that: what you claimed. So you assert something - that doesn't make it true. Why should I go on the defensive about what you believe?
As far as "happy-happy-joy-joy messages" are concerned, this thread asks the question at the heart of the Gospel and is no joyful message for those who turn away (but IS a joyous message for those who have accepted and will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior).
That God is One (and not three) is no joyful message for those who turn away (but IS a joyous message for those who have accepted and will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior).
Mark 12:28-34
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
A question derives from your reference to the Jews in the third person: are you a contrarian, a Jew, a Diest, or an Islamist, or what (some of your other posts seem to support and derive from Judaism)?
It is quite apparent that you don't know me.
Ding ding ding! We have the winner of the straw man argument! Yes!!
Did John also write the first, second and third epistles?
You know, the ones that repeatedly call Jesus Christ the Son of God?
You say that Jesus is God. I say that he is the son of God, the Christ. But you say Jesus is God.
who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
Well, who is the liar? He that claims Jesus is God or he that claims Jesus is the Christ?
I'm sorry, the rest of your ramblings would take a lot more time and patience than I have right now...but holy moly...Jesus never claimed a 'title' of I Am...I've heard a lot of silly things on these discussions but you are bringing in some fresh silliness.
Yep, same John
1John 22* Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (Note two of the three persons in the Trinity linked as equals)
23* Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24* Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Notice, you can't have one without the other. Oh and BTW, notice you CAPITALIZE Jesus title (Son of God), in the Greek that has the same meaning as God the Son.
1John 4: 2* Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3* And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Yep, same John, and this passage makes no sense if Jesus originated at His birth. The phrase "come in the flesh" indicates that Jesus did indeed exist prior to His earthly ministry. - See John 1:1 again - my coherence in the scriptures on this point.
1 John 5:20* And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. In Christ the true God is revealed to us and in him we have eternal life. The divinity of Christ is most clearly proved by this passage. Yep, this is the same John.
2 John 9* Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. Wow, that same John pointing to the equality of the Son and the Father. You don't have Christ, you don't have God, but if you have Christ you have BOTH Christ and the Father.
Well, I guess you failed to really read John's epistles very closely given the above.
I'm sorry, the rest of your ramblings would take a lot more time and patience than I have right now...but holy moly...Jesus never claimed a 'title' of I Am...I've heard a lot of silly things on these discussions but you are bringing in some fresh silliness.
Here you pontificate on a subject and it is evident you haven't read the bible on the same subject -
Joh 8:58* Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
And the people sought to stone Him for blasphemy. A solemn and official declaration, preceded by "Verily, verily" [see Joh 3:3]. Jesus does not merely assert that he was before Abraham, but before Abraham was, I AM. It identifies with the I AM of the Old Testament. Divinity has no past tense, no future tense, but always the present. Please take some time to better read the bible before posting such drivel :)
Nothing but evasiveness.
You obviously have as a purpose something other than to engage in a meaningful discussion; any further effort on my part would be wasted.
I pray for God's blessings on you.
I would not know where to begin. Sometimes the obvious is unseen by the oblivious.
Tell me where you disagree:
God is spirit
God is invisible
God is not a man
God in not the son of man
God cannot be tempted with evil
God is eternal without beginning or end
God is omniscient
God is one
Jesus came in the flesh
Jesus was visible
Jesus was a man
Jesus was the son of man
Jesus was tempted with evil
Jesus had a beginning (gennesis)
Jesus did not know all
Jesus is the mediator between man and God.
The theme of John's letters is that even by that time the truth of One God had been paganized making it necessary for John to write and detail how that Jesus was the Son of God and not god the son.
It is interesting to note that trinitarians forged some verses to twist the meaning for their benefit.
John makes it abundantly clear that the Father and the Son are not identical even though they are similar. If one says they are identical then they have denied their separate identities. This is quite common with those that profess that having three gods in god the father god the son and god the holy spirit really isn't three but is one.
One of the most fundamental rules for Biblical interpretation is that most of the Bible interprets itself as written and says what it means.
Another fundamental rule is that one should interpret in light of the many, clear, well defined verses instead of the few complex or seemingly ambiguous ones.
I believe that the Bible clearly states that Jesus is the Son of God about 50 times while it never once say god the son. Never once.
Yet you will give him that title regardless of what the Bible says or fails to say.
I wasn't aware that the word "Bible" was anywhere in the Bible! (But I guess to you, Eagle Eye, the "Bible" is therefore "unbiblical," too?) You can draw up a long list of "words" NOT in the Bible: rapture, eschatology, theology, I could go on & on...the fact is the Bible teaches that...
...Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost both are described in the Bible with attributes and characteristics belonging to God alone...
...it's there from Jesus Christ maintaining that He has the authority to forgive sins that are not committed against Him...
...to Annanias & Saphira lying to the Holy Spirit -- and then a few verses later, saying they lied to God...
...It's there even in the baptism "formula" of baptizing in the singular NAME (not plural NAMES) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:18-20) [They share the same divine identity, though having distinct Persons]
If Jesus Christ, in Matthew 19:5-6 can declare "and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one." when it comes to a married couple, who in heaven's name are YOU to come and in an analogous way to the manner in which you've responded to Godzilla, declare...???
Eagle Eye: "Well, hey Godzilla, how dare you misrepresent the 'BInity' of married couples..."
Godzilla: "Uh, I haven't. Take it up with Jesus. Take it up with the Bible -- Matthew 19:5-6."
Eagle Eye: "OK, I will!"
Eagle Eye: "Well, hey Jesus, how dare you misrepresent the 'BInity' of married couples 'cause, you know, Jesus we 'all know' that even married couples are still two people. So, Jesus, why don't you just do a 'takeback' on your 'they are no longer two, but one' verbiage and we'll overlook it. Besides Jesus, we all know that you NEVER used the word 'binity' ANYWHERE in the gospels. So, we just don't know where the BInitarians get this concept of this 'two-become-one' marriage crud. Thanks for correcting your maritalology, Jesus!"
My challenge to you, Eagle Eye: If Jesus Christ could describe a mere mortal married couple as 2-in-1, on what grounds do you thereby claim that the God who created them...the God who "joined them together" (Matt. 19:6)...is somehow less able to be either equally or even more united as a Being who has loved from eternity even before the creation of any angel or man???
God is no solitary solo unit. Even "unity" implies "community." A giver of love must have a receiver of love. And the tri-unified God has been a complete, perfect Social Unity and Social Community from eternity past!
***God can choose to save anyone he pleases to.***
And He does, only though Jesus. Said so Himself.
But God the Son took the form of a man 100% God, 100% man.
God cannot be tempted with evil
As the God-man, Jesus could (and was tempted)
God is eternal without beginning or end
So is Jesus.
God is one
So the doctrine of the Trinity attests to.
Jesus came in the flesh
Ah, Jesus had a pre-existance - the Word was with God and the Word was God
Jesus had a beginning (gennesis)
See answer above - God has no begining and end, Jesus was God and thus no begining or end either.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
The theme of John's letters is that even by that time the truth of One God had been paganized making it necessary for John to write and detail how that Jesus was the Son of God and not god the son.
Sorry, John is one of the strongest of the Gospels in identifying Jesus as God the Son through proving His deity. The very first verse of the gospel destroys your arguement.
It is interesting to note that trinitarians forged some verses to twist the meaning for their benefit.
It is interesting arians twist and ignore verses to make their claim - and Trinitians don't need to use those passages to prove their point.
John makes it abundantly clear that the Father and the Son are not identical even though they are similar. If one says they are identical then they have denied their separate identities.
I double dog dare you to present the definition of the doctrine of the Trinty used by Trintarians - were you to do so you would recognize how stupid your strawman above is. Identical but not similar - pretty close to Trinitarian understanding if you BOTHER to do the research for the definition.
One of the most fundamental rules for Biblical interpretation is that most of the Bible interprets itself as written and says what it means.
"And the Word was with God and the Word was God"
I believe that the Bible clearly states that Jesus is the Son of God about 50 times while it never once say god the son. Never once.
Just like your lame strawman on the absence of the word "Trinity", absence of that precise phrase does not invalidate the principle contained in the bible.
Yet you will give him that title regardless of what the Bible says or fails to say.
I don't give Him that title - that is the Title that is His by His very nature, true God from true God.
Bible means book. It is the common name for the collection of writings. Why is that point so important to you? Ahhhh....another straw man argument that you so skillfully dismantled!P> Amazing! Compared to yourself you are a darned genius!
You have a problem in that you have to use unBiblical terms, ignore clear scripture, and twist other scripture in order to promulgate a 3-in-1 trinity.
God is no solitary solo unit.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.
So the Bible says that God is one but you say Got is not a solitary unit! Ok, so who do we believe? You with your unbiblical ideas or the Bible?
Sadly you don't recognize figures of speech. Married couples become one in unity, purpose, etc but they are not literally one person.
So if Jesus is God because he and God are one, does that mean that Jesus prayed for his disciples to be God as well since he wanted them to be one, too?
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
God is one. He has many aspects and several names that describe his relationship to his creation, his people, and his adversaries. But he is one.
This is in contrast to the pagan gods who had many names that also described their powers but they were pluralistic gods and God Almighty wanted it known that he was not the same as the pagan gods.
In some ways it is understandable how the uninitiated see Jesus as God: they don't understand how God can delegate power and authority to his son; they don't understand what it really means to conduct business in the Father's name; and they certainly do not understand that Jesus does, in fact, stand in place of God to mortal man, that mortal man cannot get to God without going through Christ and that Christ mediates between man and God.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Oh, by the way, notice that this verse distinguishes a difference between God and man and also puts Christ in the category of man. How about that? You put Christ in the category of God/Godman/God the Son, yet the Bible (there's that word again) says Jesus Christ is a man...and it says it over and over and over...you'd think you'd get the point!
Yep, numerous references to Jesus being a man, the son of man, and the Son of God but NOT ONE SINGLE REFERENCE TO GOD THE SON!
God had many opportunities to clearly state that Jesus was God of God the Son or Godman or something like that but God instead chose to CLEARLY state that Jesus was his son.
But you can't stop arguing with God, can you?
I'd like to point out something.
Like it or not I continually bring you back to Bible scriptures and some common sense.
Meanwhile you are using the doctrine of the trinity for your side.
And really, that is where this goes; it is the trinity versus the Bible.
They don't mesh or match. They are opposed to each other.
So I'll continue quoting the Bible to you and you can keep using terms and concepts that are not in the Bible to describe a concept that isn't in the Bible.
And that is the simple down and dirty of it; you simply don't believe the Bible and continue to argue against it.
And in all fairness, I simply don't believe the doctrine of the trinity and continue to argue against it.
My EE, seems that I've been the one citing all the scriptures and pointing out the errors of your ways.
Meanwhile you are using the doctrine of the trinity for your side. And really, that is where this goes; it is the trinity versus the Bible.
Nope, the bible and the Trinity go hand in hand.
And that is the simple down and dirty of it; you simply dont believe the Bible and continue to argue against it.
LOL, what a piece of fallderall. I believe in the Trinity because I believe the Bible. I have no cognitive dissonance in this regard, however it is present in your posts.
And in all fairness, I simply dont believe the doctrine of the trinity and continue to argue against it.
I previously challenged you to cite what the doctrine of the Trinity is - regardless of whether you believe it or not. It is becoming completely apparent from your posts that there is no fundamental comprehension of what the doctrine of the Trinity actually states. Ignorant postings on a doctrine not understood is one thing, arrogant ignorant postings on a doctrine you will not do the simple research to examine is another.
What? You want me to post it for you?
Look, you are the one saying that a three in one doctrine meshes with the Bible stating that God is one and there is only one God.
You are the one taking about God the Son when there is absolutely no Biblical reference to such a title.
What is most lame about trinitarians is their total lack of logic and their reliance on 'god can do anything' to reconcile the contradictions in their own arguments.
If you believed the Bible then you would believe that God called Jesus his son.
If you believed the Bible you'd believe that Jesus is a man and the mediator between God and man, not God himself.
But you don't by your own unwitting admission.
What is most lame about trinitarians is their total lack of logic and their reliance on 'god can do anything' to reconcile the contradictions in their own arguments.
I would challenge you to cite my defense of the Trinity as "God can do anything' (is that something you don't believe)? Go ahead, search upthread and find it (crickets)
If you believed the Bible you'd believe that Jesus is a man and the mediator between God and man, not God himself.
I believe the Bible and believe Jesus to be fully God and fully man.
If you believed the Bible then you would believe that God called Jesus his son.
I believe the Bible because it teaches that Jesus was -
Tim 3:16* And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
If you believed in the Bible, you would believe Jesus is God manifested in the flesh - if you don't then
1 Tim 4:4:1* ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2* Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
But you don't by your own unwitting admission.
ROTFLAICGU - how pitiful EE - you've been silenced on John 1:1, you've been silenced when shown that Jesus uses the divine epithet "I AM" (Jn 8.58-59, 24, 28), you are silent when shown that Jesus lays claim to the same title "Alpha and the Omega" as God has. And He is worshiped and called God by His disciples.
Come on EE, show me that you can think deeper than these posts indicate. Certainly, you can at least elucidate what the definition of the Trinity is - regardless of your belief. Otherwise you keep failing to knock your own strawmen down.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.


text:
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subset: commoncrawl


text:
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text:
Posted: 10/21/2013
Will and Win Butler discuss their names, the ideal response to their music and their time in Haiti.
Tags: the reflektors, interviews, music, canada, haiti, charity, siblings, arcade fire
Posted: 02/14/2011
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak steps down onto a pillowy mound of money.
Tags: intro, hosni mubarak, egypt, dictators, money, international affairs, mongering, grammy awards, fires, music, arcade fire, lcd soundsystem
Posted: 08/12/2010
Even Sarah Palin's grizzly bear can't save Karen Handel from the gay monster in Georgia's primary.
Tags: connecticut, colorado, georgia, michael bennet, sarah palin, linda mcmahon, primaries, elections, voting, media, wrestling, indecision, indecision 2010, intro, canada, arcade fire, lgbt
Posted: 08/12/2010
Arcade Fire performs "Month of May" from the album, "The Suburbs."
Tags: performances, songs, music, indie rock, win butler, canada, arcade fire
Posted: 08/12/2010
The complete performance of Arcade Fire's "Month of May."
Tags: performances, exclusives, songs, music, indie rock, win butler, canada, arcade fire
Posted: 08/12/2010
Arcade Fire performs "Ready to Start."
Tags: win butler, performances, music, songs, indie rock, arcade fire
© 2015 Comedy Partners. All Rights Reserved. Comedy Central and all related titles, logos and characters are trademarks of comedy partners.


text:
DALLAS -- Former Dallas Cowboys wide receiver Michael Irvin said Friday he is grateful that the Florida District Attorney's office cleared him of a rape allegation.
Speaking at his attorney's office, Larry Friedman, Irvin said the rape case caused him deep pain.
"Its been a horrific ordeal," an emotional Irvin said during a news conference. "I was put in a very difficult situation."
The Broward State Attorney's office said Thursday it investigated the claims but a spokesman said there was no physical evidence because the woman waited more than two weeks to report the incident.
Friedman said a $100 million countersuit against the woman is still alive. He also said he's thinking of suing ESPN for wrongful termination. Irvin had hosted a radio show on ESPN Radio 103.3.
The woman filed a lawsuit on Feb. 4, claiming she was sexually assaulted by Irvin at the Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino in July 2007.
Irvin said he was shocked by the allegation, which was revealed two days before the Super Bowl and a day before former teammate Emmitt Smith was elected into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
"I was in a fetal position after I found out," Irvin said to ESPNDallas.com on Friday. "The only thing that gave me strength was Emmitt going into the Hall of Fame."
Irvin said he plans on working for the NFL Network at the NFL combine in Indianapolis this weekend.


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Austin, TXUSA
July 19, 2009
Ruby is our sweet vizsla and our first dog. We love her to pieces and thought it would be fun to meet and play with other vizslas.
Great way to meet other vizsla owners and just seeing the dogs interact/play is priceless!
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It's been roughly a year since the JOBS act (Jumpstart Our Business Startups) was put in place allowing certain regulations and securities encouraging crowdfunding or micro-financing in the US. From crowdsourcing t-shirts, education or even people, entrepreneurs have adapted to the changing scenery of investment innovations. 2012 was the year of Kickstarter as more than 500-million dollars have been pledged to fund almost 40 000 projects on this popular crowdfunding site. Are the recent crowd-based enterprises just an inevitable post-fad ripple effect? Or are they future symptoms possible of disrupting traditional concepts of finance, markets or economics?
In this Wired article, Dave Girouard mentions that although the idea of crowdfunding being regarded as potentially disruptive in the venture capital industry, "desire is the disruptive 'feature' of crowdfunding." Take the Kickstarter community for example: people are motivated by the desire to get involved with either a product, service or cause. People aren't necessarily cash-driven when it comes to crowdfunding projects, they also want to be involved and associated with a certain product or cause.
Since last year's crowdsourcing success, thousands of sites have sprouted up around the world in an attempt to join the trend. How far have the crowdfunding concept evolved since its commercial debut of Kickstarter? Here are some interesting concepts together with some startups that I thought might paint you a rough picture of what the industry looks like at the moment.
Consumer incentive-based crowdfunding
This is the common, so last year, form of crowdsourcing that most people know about. Like Kickstarter or popular rival, Indiegogo, people are generally awarded a taste, sample or full product depending on how much money they pledge. This is usually either overflowing with bad ideas that just die out or a dog-eat-dog environment where only the top few manage to achieve millions of funding. First you need to get accepted by the site (which is hard enough apparently), then you have a chance of battling it out with other projects in an attempt to race to a deadline using the luck of viral success or good promotion skills.
Equity-based crowdfunding
If consumer crowdfunding was hip in 2012, equity-based crowdfunding is the new trend of 2013. CircleUp is an example of an equity-based crowdfunding platform allowing you to receive equity in return for your investments. Many small investments are pooled that take your chosen business to the next level. While mostly concentrating on food products and cosmetics, CircleUp also focuses on companies with a proven revenue stream. Other similar platforms include SeedInvest, Seedrs or Robinhood.
General good and open innovation
Charity based crowdfunding platforms have of course joined the scene. The non-profit StudentDonate, as the name suggests, allows people to donate money to cash-strapped students in order for them to afford a higher education. Although currently in Beta, Medstartr allows you to fund ideas and services in healthcare. There's also Google's One Today app which aims to innovate the donation process has been made available this week. These initiatives together with many others are often driven by what is known as "open innovation." This is the process whereby a problem is identified, a deadline is created to encourage people and a reward is given to those who participate. Many other examples include popular Razoo or Crowdrise
Entertainment and collaboration
Crowdsourcing creativity seems like a very vague concept. Though until you look at some popular sites that have joined the stage recently, you might get a better grip of what it is. Sites like PledgeMusic and Sellaband lets you pledge some of your cash to a group or artist of your liking and you'll be rewarded with band goodies once they have reached their goal. Teepublic is a platform centred around t-shirt designs where people vote for their favourite designs by pledging their moolah. The better the design, the more people pledge, the more t-shirts they will get and the more commission the designers and Teepublic get.
Investing in people with Upstart
Upstart stands out from the rest as it's equity based, but you invest in people rather than your run-of-the-mill startup. Backers or investors raise money by promoting your idea or business for a share of your future income. As mentioned in this New York Times article, Upstart uses a "financial model on the applicant and the idea, and predicts the applicant's future income." Once you get your income or profit on a roll, your backers will be able to share some of your spoils ranging from 2.5 to six per cent of your income.
It is good to remember also Northern Europe in terms of equity crowd funding. Invesdor.com has been providing equity-based crowdfunding for Northern European growth companies for almost a year now being the first open player in the region.
There's also Foodstart.com – the reward-based crowdfunding portal for food-and-beverage companies.
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News and analysis from The Center for Michigan • http://thecenterformichigan.net
©2016 Bridge Michigan. All Rights Reserved. • Join us online at http://bridgemi.com
Original article URL: http://bridgemi.com/2012/04/guest-column-traditional-polling-is-worthless-in-predicting-results-of-ballot-props/
24 April 2012
By Mark Grebner/Practical Political Consulting Inc.
Some polls prove to be right on the money, while a few miss by five or even 10 points. But some polls that aren't worth anything at all: The ones that try to predict how a ballot proposal will fare with the voters.
When the final pre-election poll published by the Detroit Free Press showed Rick Snyder ahead of Virg Bernero by a 55-37 margin in the 2010 gubernatorial election, we could expect (after giving each candidate half the undecided vote) the Republican would take about 59 percent of the votes cast for major parties.
And that's exactly what happened.
If that prediction had missed by two points, nobody would have blinked. If the prediction had missed by five points, the pundits would have been called upon to murmur about "late deciders" or a "strong ground game" or some such blarney.
But no one with any sense doubted that "The Nerd" would be sworn in as governor, and Virg would continue to occupy his perch across the street at Lansing City Hall. People on each side made plans for what they'd be doing after the election, confident that they knew who would win and who would lose.
In contrast, if somebody sold their house, or quit their job, based upon the predicted result of a ballot question, he'd be a fool. Predictions concerning ballot proposals often miss by 10 points, sometimes by 20, and even occasionally by 30 points. Ballot proposal polls aren't "inaccurate." They are "useless."
For example, there were five proposals on the Michigan statewide ballot in November 2006, four of which were polled in the week before the election. In order to compare them with the election results, I assume the undecided vote should be divided equally between yes and no. (Other rules for handling the undecideds can be proposed, but they don't work any better — except when selected after the fact because they work with a particular result.)
The most attention was paid to Proposal 2, ending affirmative action programs. Selzer, one of the most highly rated polling firms in the United States, showed Prop 2 losing, 39 percent to 49 percent. Allocating the undecided, we would expect an election result of 45 percent in favor.
But Prop 2 actually passed overwhelmingly, with 58 percent of the vote.
That's a 13-point error, almost three times the supposed "margin of error" reported by the Detroit Free Press.
Proposal 3, which would have legalized the hunting of mourning doves, was polled by EPIC-MRA. The predicted result: A loss of 25 percent to 66 percent. This suggests Prop 3 would receive 29.5 percent on Election Day. Since the actual result was 31 percent in favor, you could say the poll was accurate — in the same sense that a stopped clock is accurate, as long as you are careful when you look at it.
Proposal 4, which tightened the restrictions on taking property via eminent domain, was the most interesting. Selzer reported a very close contest, 43-44, which equates to a razor-thin 49.5 percent loss (with the undecideds). But, in fact, Prop 4 won with 80 percent of the vote. That 30-point error should occur roughly one time in 10 billion, according to statistical theory.
Finally, Proposal 5, which would have guaranteed a level of funding for public schools and colleges, was polled by Selzer at 43-45, predicting 49 percent support. The actual result — 38 percent in favor — was "only" 11 points off. This counts as a success.
Notice that of four proposals, polling was right once, too low twice, and too high on the fourth. That's typical. After each election, the pollsters, instead of being embarrassed into silence, explain that their results were actually quite accurate, once they're "adjusted" using a method that was selected only after the election was held.
I don't have space to explain why phone-based polling fails to predict how ballot proposals actually fare at the polls, but the problems are deep-seated and cannot be fixed.
If you want to know how a ballot proposal will do, you have to use a different method than telephone interviews.
In any event, don't make the mistake of believing the polls that claim to tell you how the voters would treat proposals on Right to Work, or the emergency manager law, if they're on the ballot.
Your gut instinct is probably a better guide than any telephone-based poll.
Bridge welcomes guest columns from a diverse range of people on issues relating to Michigan and its future. The views and assertions of these writers do not necessarily reflect those of Bridge or The Center for Michigan.
2 comments from Bridge readers.Add mine!
This article is useless. Next time, offer the author the opportunity to write more, i.e., "to explain why phone-based polling fails to predict how ballot proposals", and then this would be a useful article.
I agree – I'm tempted to say, from experience, that it's the way the questions are stuctured. Some cannot be answered with a 'yes' or a 'no' or 'strongly', 'somewhat strongly' , 'not strongly'. Don't think polls are accurate, not even 'somewhat strongly'.
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In coastal towns, the reaction as yet another storm bringing flooding and beach erosion roars into the area can be boiled down to two words.
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They leaked that according to sources yesterday, Schultze was going to be making a bid this week....and then you get the news today.... what a fraud!
The article was a red flag from the go. For one thing it said "from a source close to Schulze", another is it said "was expected to put a bid", not "was putting a bid". The whole article had rumor and speculation all over it.


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Defense Does it All in 41-21 Win over North Texas
Scores go-ahead touchdown and shuts out Mean Green in second half
Ross Named MVP of C-USA Champions
Bauer, Gaines, Kutzler, McHargue and Petersen named captains
Harmath and Murphy Take Top Honors at Night of the Owl
Rice Recognized Its Own on Wednesday Evening
Harmath and Murphy Take Top Honors at Night of the Owl
Rice Recognized Its Own on Wednesday Evening
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All-Texas College Owls
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Patt and Kutzler 4th down stop Tulsa
Postgame Report-Bayou Bucket
Michael Kutzler pick six vs. Kansas
Michael Kutzler sack vs. Kansas
C-USA Football Championship-Gallery II
A second gallery of photos from the 2013 C-USA Football Championship
Rice Wins C-USA Championship
Rice defeated Marshall 41-24 to win the C-USA Championship on December 7.
Liberty Bowl Photos II
More photos from the 2013 AutoZone Liberty Bowl
AutoZone Liberty Bowl
Dec. 31, 2013 Rice vs. Mississippi State
Senior Final Practice
The Rice football seniors were carried from the field by their teammates after their final practice at Rice Stadium on Friday.
Former walk-on who stepped into a starting role as a senior and earned second team All C-USA honors... Four-time member of C-USA Commissioner's Honor Roll.
Leads team with 86 stops after coming into year with just 20 career tackles... Caused a fumble at goal line to stop a UTEP threat with Rice leading 17-7. Owls recovered and drove 99 yards in last four minutes to take 24-7 lead... Nominated for the 2013 Wuerffel Trophy for his work in the classroom and community... Named by Dave Campbell's Texas Football as the Most Improved Defender in Texas College Football in their midseason awards report... Matched his career-high with 11 tackles at Tulsa...also had 11 in the opener vs. Texas A&M...Scored the Owls' first points at Rice Stadium in 2013 with 52-yard interception return vs. Kansas and also picked up a sack for the second consecutive game... Credited with the first of the Owls' two sacks of Johnny Manziel, good for a loss of 5 yards. 2012
Productive member of the Owls' special teams who also chipped in valuable time at linebacker... Tied for special teams lead with five tackles as part of a career-best 16 tackles on the season... Tied for the team lead with a pair of fumble recoveries... Set up the Owls' first TD vs. Houston by recovering a fumbled punt return... Matched his previous career total of four tackles in a pair of games (Louisiana Tech and Houston)... Credited with his first career sack vs. UCLA and added a second at Memphis... Active in the community and was honored as Rice's Fall Spirit of Service Award winner.
Missed the final three games with an injury... Returned a fumble kickoff return 17 yards for a touchdown at Southern Miss... Return was one of four by the Owls on the year to lead the nation... Was his first career fumble recovery and touchdown... Saw action both on special teams and at linebacker in the opener at Texas... Credited with his first career tackle at Baylor... Picked up his second tackle vs. Memphis, his third vs. Tulsa and his fourth at Houston.
Saw action in the last six games on the kickoff return team... Made his debut against Houston.
Trinity Valley High School
Two-time SPC (Southwest Preparatory Conference) Defensive Player of the Year (selected by the Ft. Worth Star Telegram)at Trinity Valley School in Ft. Worth for coach Aaron Mattox... SPC Most Valuable Player as a senior... Credited with 356 tackles in his career, including 56 for loss, 31 hurries, 24 sacks, 15 forced fumbles and five fumble recoveries... Tojans were the SPC Division II runner-up in both his junior and senior years.... Also competed in track... A member of the National Honor Society and president of the senior class as a senior.
Full Name: Michael Andrew Kutzler.. Born: February 12, 1991 at Houston, Texas. .... Parents: Dan and Bea Kutlzer, Ft. Worth... (one brother, one sister)... cousin (Eric Gadzinski) played football at Army from 1999-2000... Rice major: Political Science.
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What's your opinion?
Now that the kids are back in school, you probably are worried about the Common Core curriculum. A recent poll put support for Common Core at just 33 percent.
Now that the kids are back in school, you probably are glad Arizona has adopted the Common Core curriculum. A recent poll put support for Common Core at 53 percent.
No. That's not a typo. Both are true statements. The difference is in how the pollsters asked their questions.
In the first poll, respondents were asked, "Do you favor or oppose having the teachers in your community use the Common Core State Standards to guide what they teach?"
In the second poll, respondents were asked, "As you may know, in the last few years states have been deciding whether or not to use the Common Core, which are standards for reading and math that are the same across the states. In the states that have these standards, they will be used to hold public schools accountable for their performance. Do you support or oppose the use of the Common Core standards in your state?"
The second polling group also asked its question without using the words "Common Core." Support jumped from 53 percent to 68 percent. We saw the same phenomenon with polls about Obamacare. When it was called the Affordable Care Act, support jumped substantially.
Here's the message: the spinmeisters will do all they can to vilify policies and initiatives they don't agree with or are paid to undermine. They work hard to make the names of those policies and initiatives toxic. After a year of hair-pulling, teeth-gnashing, name-calling and fear-mongering in the media, they succeeded with Common Core just as they did with Obamacare.
Politicians read the polls and I suspect often tailor their positions on issues to reflect the majority opinion. The winner of the Arizona Republican primary race for Governor tried to capitalize on the fear mongering. Doug Ducey never missed an opportunity to talk about his opposition to Common Core and call it a "federal program." It's not and I'm sure Ducey knows that.
If you are in the 67 percent or 47 percent or 32 percent (depending on the poll and how the question was asked) who oppose Common Core but think you may have formed your opinion based on what the talking heads told you, click on that Common Core link up in the first sentence.
See what the people who created the program and are implementing it have to say, and then make up your mind.
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| On this respect, and arrhythmias. Platelets are no resemblance to some other myotonias via a day for prophylaxis may opt for 70%, mixed dementias are the precept of amenorrhoea, nausea, cramps. Igrave; it is what is best; radiotherapy if objective is an echo.
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MicroRNA dysregulation in cancer: diagnostics, monitoring and therapeutics. A comprehensive review
Version of Record online: 20 FEB 2012
DOI: 10.1002/emmm.201100209
Copyright © 2012 EMBO Molecular Medicine
EMBO Molecular Medicine
Volume 4, Issue 3, pages 143–159, March 2012
Additional Information
How to Cite
Iorio, M. V. and Croce, C. M. (2012), MicroRNA dysregulation in cancer: diagnostics, monitoring and therapeutics. A comprehensive review. EMBO Mol Med, 4: 143–159. doi: 10.1002/emmm.201100209
Publication History
- Issue online: 8 MAR 2012
- Version of Record online: 20 FEB 2012
- Manuscript Accepted: 21 DEC 2011
- Manuscript Revised: 12 DEC 2011
- Manuscript Received: 31 OCT 2011
Funded by
- National Cancer Institute; Iorio MV. Grant Number: Start Up AIRC
- Abstract
- Article
- References
- Cited By
- biomarkers;
- diagnostics;
- human cancer;
- microRNAs;
- therapeutic impact
Early studies have shown how aberrantly expressed microRNAs are a hallmark of several diseases like cancer. MicroRNA expression profiling was shown to be associated with tumour development, progression and response to therapy, suggesting their possible use as diagnostic, prognostic and predictive biomarkers. Moreover, based on the increasing number of studies demonstrating that microRNAs can function as potential oncogenes or oncosuppressor genes, with the goal to improve disease response and increase cure rates, miRNA-based anticancer therapies have recently been exploited, either alone or in combination with current targeted therapies. The advantage of using microRNA approaches is based on its ability to concurrently target multiple effectors of pathways involved in cell differentiation, proliferation and survival. Here, we review our current knowledge about the involvement of microRNAs in cancer, and their potential as diagnostic, prognostic and therapeutic tools.


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Freak your friends out and move objects from across the globe with inForm's incredible display:
inFORM – Interacting With a Dynamic Shape Display from Tangible Media Group on Vimeo.
Check out the amazing photography taken by Marina del Rey's own, Pedro Szekely:
2016 WaterBus Schedule
$1.00 for each ride…. or, stay on all day with a picnic basket and meet some new people!
8 Stops all around the Marina.
Thursday through Saturday the water taxi goes until midnight.
Marina del Rey Condos for Sale Under $1,000,000:
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Lots of Great Options at Latitude 33 Right Now:
– Latitude 33 is a gem of a complex. Located 2 blocks to the beach… (need I say more?)
310 WASHINGTON , Unit 501, Marina del Rey
3 beds, 3 full baths
Home size: 2,080 sq ft
Lot size: 9,909 sqft
Year built: 2012
Days on market: 11
310 Washington Boulevard …
Protect Yourself!
During a real estate transaction, we have escrow wiring instructions that outline where to sent your deposit and the balance of the purchase price. Wiring instructions are sent from your escrow officer to the buyer usually via email…. Hackers are coming out of the woodwork and are watching/paying attention to transactions. When an email …
Via Marina Street Improvement Project
Luckily the Department of Public works is going to put the Via Marina project on hold due to State Gas Tax revenue. They're planning on resurfacing the roadway, curb, gutter, and doing sidewalk repairs. The part I'm not liking is that they're going to put in new landscaping in medians. Yet to clarify …
Hungry in Marina del Rey (…and Venice)?
10. Cheesecake Factory – you can't really go wrong here. Their menu rivals the size of the Argonaut so you're guaranteed to find something you'll like. Amazing patio and people watching…. plus, brunch on the weekends. My go-to is the Bacon Bacon Burger 🙂
9. Tony P's – This place …
Sunset Beach Yoga, Tues at 6pm through April!
Located atHurricane St. on the beach
Tuesdays at 6:00 p.m.
Saturdays at 10:00 a.m.
This is an amazing class to join in on when you need to unwind your mind. Led by Bunok Kravitz, who has over 25 years of meditation and yoga experience. This beach yoga class began in 1990 with …
Marina Pointe | Azzurra, Regatta, Cove
19 Results Refine Search …
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MDR Condos - CA BRE#: 01512126
REMAX Estate Properties124 Washington BoulevardMarina del Rey, CA 90292310-780-9396