text:
Deir Yassin Remembered
Early in the morning of April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun (headed by Menachem Begin) and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish State; it had a peaceful reputation. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Deir Yassin was slated for occupation under Plan Dalet and the mainstream Jewish defense force, the Haganah, authorized the irregular terrorist forces of the Irgun and the Stern Gang to perform the takeover.
In all over 100 men, women, and children were systematically murdered. Fifty-three orphaned children were literally dumped along the wall of the Old City, where they were found by Miss Hind Husseini and brought behind the American Colony Hotel to her home, which was to become the Dar El-Tifl El-Arabi orphanage.
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68 Comments / User Reviews
A moving and thought provoking doco, but even here I see the hand of what I would describe as culpability minimisation: Irgun and the Stern Gang were not a "militia" they were TERRORISTS plain and simple Deir Yassin is only one of the many atrocities carried out by these terrorists,another-incredible but true- was the bombing at Haifa,in 1940, of the refugee ship Patria,with hundreds killed these were JEWISH refugees from Europe.As a link to today, Tzipi Livni's parents were terrorists both active in Irgun, the terrorists "credited" with the Deir Yassin and many other massacres.This woman,the progeny of mass murderers,nearly became the PM of Israel.
The Irgun were freedom fighters, fighting to get the British colonialists out of the Jewish homeland, which the League of Nations had designated as the "Jewish National Home." They met Arab terror with retalitions and reprisals which I would label counterterror rather than terror. The incident of Deir Yassin was unfortunate, but blown WAY out of all proportion at the time by (a) the left wingers led by Ben Gurion who wanted to discredit the Right Wing led by Begin at any cost, and (b) by wildly exaggerated Arab propaganda which instead of bolstering Palestinian fortitude to fight, only led instead to fright and their flight.
The resultant wild tales of rapes and mutilations have since finally been conceded to have been totally fabricated. It is true that in the battle of Deir Yassin bad luck caused a series of things to get out of control. The town was expected to simply surrender without any resistance but things got out of control. In fact, at most, perhaps 25 were indeed executed after the battle, but most of the 107 fatalities were due to the things that normally go on in battle when resistance is met, such as hand grenades being thrown into homes from wherein you are being fired upon from. In a 1997 BBC documentary, "The Fifty Years War," some Arab survivors of Deir Yassin interviewed therein had a very different tale to tell than those in this documentary.
But terror in Palestine did NOT begin with the Zionist Jewish immigrants, but rather with radical clerical opponents of the Mandate, particularly the Grand Mufti, Haj Amin el Husseini, who really started the intercommunal violence in earnest back in 1920, also murdering scores of fellow Arabs who were prepared to at least try to compromise with the Jews. The Jewish terrorist groups, such as Irgun and the Lehi ("Stern Gang") did not arise until very late in the 1930s after hundreds of Jews and others had already been massacred by the Mufti's gangs, and when Britain, in its White Paper of 1939, reneged on its committment made to the terms of League of Nations Mandate.
This is stated not to condone excesses caused in the heat of battle, but to explain the context of this unfortunate event.
Fascinating historic side info. New on me. -am wondering why the League of Nations deemed Palistine as the Jewish National Home when it was already home to the people living there for generations. In other words, did the designation exclude non national Jewish citizens..
Researching the history of this region is confusing because of conflicting agendas with opined and/or incomplete information. Difficult to discern for a person with no point of view.
No, the 650,000 non-Jewish inhabitants who were living there for generations, indeed in some cases many centuries, would have full civil and religious rights. You can look up text of the Mandate by "googling" San Remo Text League of Nations 1922. It's all there in black and white. The intent of the League of Nations was to restore the country to the many millions of Jews who had been displaced from their homeland by European Romans over 1800 years ago.
But one must understand that Jews had been dispersed to all corners of the world and in most cases were never granted citizenship rights in the vast majority of them, even though many had lived there for many centuries. The US was one of those early exceptional countries that did give Jews citizenship, and that certainly attracted many Jews to it.
The League of Nations had to deal with MANY peoples who strove for independence and nationhood. But the most unique were the Jews, because the Jews were the only nation that had almost COMPLETELY been displaced from their homeland. Other nations were occupied, and colonized, but rarely was an ENTIRE PEOPLE displaced from their land as completely as the Jews. So, there are many reasons why the League had to take into consideration and treat the plight of the Jews in a somewhat unique and unusual way, as their condition was unique and unusual. I hope this helps.
those stories about dir yassin have been proven as lies. Palestinians have a notorious reputation of fabrication and imagination, we have numerous examples from the past 10 years - the boy Muhammad a- Dura, who proved to been killed by Palestinians and not Israel, the 'Massacre" in Jenine - Palestinians claimed for over 100 victims when the U.N found that only about 30 were killed - all of them been combatants. so if they lie about things that happened only 10 years ago, can we trust them about things that happened 60 years ago??
At some point, fire has to be fought with fire. Ask any wilderness fire fighter. The Jews DID NOT initiate hostilities, violence or terror! It came after many years of Arab violence beginning in 1920 (with the League of Nations' ruling that Palestine was to be restored as the Jewish National Home) spurred primarily by the Mufti of Jerusalem began in earnest. The Hebron Massacre of 1929, where Jewish children were murdered along with 67 innocent inhabitants of Hebron, who had lived there for generations, were cut to pieces like meat really changed things. But the underground terrorist groups, like Irgun and the Stern gang, did not start up till 1939 when the British went back on the terms of the LoN's Mandate and shut Palestine closed as WWII was approaching. Look, the US bombed to death hundreds of thousands of civilians from the air in Germany and Japan. When you are fighting an enemy that does not respect the rules of war and murders civilians, then all bets are off. It then becomes TOTAL war and the gloves come off.
JGarbuz, In your last comment you have described exactly what every rational human being thinks about the state of Israel and the Zioinst worldwide movement. Inhumane. You are excusing the acts of the Israel, the terrorists who established it, and Zionism. Nothing can be said to cover up the Deir Yassin incident. it will forever live on to show people how zionism was created.
"it all began with Begin"
JGarbuz is lying. Deir Yassin was exactly the kind of massacre that the Arabs describe it to be.
In the first place, the Palestinians lived in Palestine and it was their homeland. They lacked an organized state because they had been under Turkish occupation prior to World War 1, but that really is irrelevant. The Jews try to make it seem relevant, but it isn't.
Palestine was, and remains, the land of the Palestinians. Israel acquired most of it by theft aggravated by murder and genocide. Deir Yassin was one of the early examples. After the massacre, Menachem Begin was quite candid that the takeover of the high ground around Deir Yassin was planned to be a terrorist object lesson to weaken the will of other Palestinians to resist the theft of their lands. That's what the massacre was for.
It wasn't any "Arab propaganda" about the Deir Yassin massacre that told the Arabs what had happened. Jewish army commanders went about Jerusalem with loudspeakers, telling the Arabs living there that they had better run before they were also killed "like the ones in Deir Yassin."
There are many Jewish Zionist apologists who misrepresent the facts of history as JGarbuz is doing. Israel history is full of dirty episodes such as Deir Yassin, and not all of them have Arab victims. Some of Israel's other victims are Christian Arabs. And there are also American and British victims of Israeli aggression and terrorism. But every single one of these acts has many Jewish liars who use deception, misdirection, omission, and abuse of emphasis to mitigate the impression Westerners will have about it.
It can be difficult to tell truth from lies, if you only pursue one incident. But after you have investigated many -- Deir Yassin, USS Liberty, Rachel Corrie, and many many others -- you start to recognize the characteristic odor of Jewish lies. So, if you are tempted to believe what JGarbuz is saying, if you want to give him some "benefit of the doubt" do so for now only on the condition that you undertake a thorough investigation of other occasions for which Israel is accused of murder, genocide, piracy, or other sins that would naturally invite the contempt of all mankind. By and by, you will see that these accusations are mostly correct, and that Israel's denials are mostly lies.
First of all, not one inch of Arab private property was taken by Jews or "Zionists" from 1882 through 1947. Whatever one chooses to make of the incident at Deir Yassin, the simple fact is that the Arabs started the war of 1948, and everything that occurred during the war is the fault of the Arabs who chose to violate the UN Charter, as well as UN General Assembly Resolution 181 of November 1947 which called for a compromise and the partitioning of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. To dwell on any particular incident of what happens in a war started by the aggressors is to divert attention from the larger historical picture. If one speaks of WWII, we can dwell on the bombing of Dresden and Hiroshima, but only in the context that it was Nazi Germany that started the war. There were atrocities by both sides in the 1948 war, but they don't change the fact that the Arab side started it, and that the Palestinians should take their grievances up with the Arab states who mislead the Palestians both before and after that seminal war.
jgarbuz, for someone trying very hard to convince everyone you are well versed in israeli-palestinian affairs (nothing you've said is outside the knowledge of anyone whose ever taken a course on, or even had a marginal interest in the conflict), you seem to lack the ability to discern between Arabs and Palestinians. Frankly, the fact that you do not even bother to sort out egyptian from palestinian from syrian should be a clear indicator of how stupid you are. Arab's invading from egypt, syria, or jordan do not justify the slaughter of innocent palestinians. I'll put it like this, Theres a guy at the bar beating his girlfriend. Another guy sees this and confronts the abusive boyfriend only to get beat himself. So now, is it the girlfriend's fault that the would-be samaritan got involved at all? Should her beatings be worsened for drawing attention to he plight? As for your ill-conceived "TOTAL WAR" argument. If you think the only way to avenge the death of children is to kill more children, you truly are a blight on humanity, and watse of functioning organs.
Again. THe Jews did NOT start the violence, and did not shed first blood. The Jews went the legal route all the way, from Herzl's speech at the Basle Zionist conference in 1897, through the decision by the League of Nations to recognize Jewish national rights in Palestine, to the UN vote in the General Assembly to authorize Partition and a Jewish and Arab state alongside it. All the way through, the Jews went by the law. The Arabs turned to violence when decisions went against them.
It could have been different. The Arabs could have welcomed their Jewish cousins back to the homeland and they could have worked together to make a good common homeland. Alas, the Hebron Massacre of 1929 put an end to that hope. After that, it was tit for tat, eye for an eye, and all of that. Once blood is shed, you cannot put the genie back into the bottle.
Of course the zionists "went the legal route", the laws were created to support them, and gave them all the advantages. Do you seriously even think about what you type? You name drop Herzl, yet Herzl recommended that the Jewish homeland be built in Argentina, knowing the problems that would entail with a homeland in the middle east. Sure, the Palestinians (Arabs since you still cannot tell the difference)could have welcomed the influx of jewish immigrants with open arms, they could have also bulldozed their own homes, dug up their own orchards, and shot their own children, that would have been a peacful route too. And techinically, the jews did start the violence, as they warred their way across Sinai following the escape from egypt, the walls of jericho fell, and they had homeland again, after much bloodshed. Of course this is the Torah/bible's description of historical events so take it with a grain of salt. Who shot first doesn't matter, all that matters is an end to the bloodshed. You praise the jews for following the decisions of the League of Nations, yet do not condemn the Sterns gang and Irgun (Who are terrorist organizations, and nothing more) for fighting the British occupation. An eye for an eye will only make us all blind.
First of all, Woodrow Wilson did not promote the creation of the League of Nations just to steal Palestine for the Jews. Remember that Brtain defeated the Ottoman empire, and that there were no Arab states before WWI. All Arabs were merely subjects of the Sultan, and Britain could simply have annexed the whole defeated Ottoman empire to the British empire had not Woodrow Wilson pushed the League of Nations idea down the throats of Britain and France. The League authorized the creation of MANY states, including 11 Arab states as well.
But the impetus to return Palestine to Jewish sovereignty had been one that many Christians in Europe embraced many decades earlier. Even Napoleon advocated for a Jewish state in Palestine when his army was there in 1799, but he was forced to withdraw. When the League decided to issue the Mandate to Britain to administer the creation of the "Jewish National Home" in Palestine, the US (though not a member) signed off on it as well back in 1920. You say that the Arabs had no voice, but I suggest you read the Feisal-Weizmann agreement of January 3,1919. The Hashemite leader of the Arab revolt agree in principle to accept the "Zionist programme."
As for the Stern and Irgun, I will condemn them when you condemn Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el Hussein and the Hebron massacre of 1929. Remember, it was the Arabs who drew first blood in this conflict, and when blood is shed, retaliation is sure to follow. And don't bring the Bible into this either. It was the LEague of Nations decision that is the LEGAL basis for restoration of Jewish sovereignty there. And I won't bring the Koran into it either.
Read about Haj Amin el Husseini, the Grand Mufti of JErusalem. Read about the Hebron massacre of 1929. Read about the Feisal-Weizmann agreement of 1919 at the Paris Peace conference.
WE can swap horror stories forever. THey are pointless. The existence of the Jewish state is based on a long line of legal decisions made from 1917 onwards. The League also created 11 Arab states out of the defeated Ottoman empire, including Jordan in eastern Palestine. The State of Israel is the most legally reconstituted state in world history. It's time to stop the nonsense and get down to full recognition of Jewish rights, and the subsequent creation of a peaceable state for the Palestinians alongside it.
Who the hell inferred Woodrow Wilson had promoted "the creation of the League of Nations just to steal Palestine for the Jews", other than you? Of course i condemn Haj Amin el Hussein, and massacres whether they be Hebron or Deir Yassin are unacceptable! Simply because I find fault with some Israeli policy or action, does not mean I pardon the horrific actions made by any Arabs. Are you mentally ill or just that much of a d*ckhead?
You find one point in my argument you can warp into a gross over-statement (good Socratic method as it may be) simply to set up your next set of talking points (and much like cable news, is making me dumber the longer I participate). This is like talking to a brick wall, so i quit, you win jgarbuz. Zionists had, and will always have the moral high-ground in this conflict, as well as the protection of the law, and its big guns.
Humans will never know peace, of this I am almost positive, mainly because we will destroy ourselves (at the behest of brain-dead mouth-breathers like you) long before we are collectively smart enough to establish peace. What a worthless species we are.
"zionists had, and will always have the moral high-ground in this conflict"
Operation Cast Lead:
Palestinian Deaths: 1,417 (Mostly Civilians)
Israeli Deaths: 13 (Mostly Soldiers)
sorry im having trouble understanding this "moral high ground" that you say the zionists always have and always will have...
am i missing something? or can you only see the zionist moral high ground when you are in a fighter jet dropping cluster bombs and phosphorous on palestinian civilians?
War is war. Those who start them have to take responsibility for all deaths that result. Even this week, rockets and mortars have fallen on Israel. The US did not put on trial those who bombed Dresden or Hiroshima. Anyhow, regarding Cast Iron, Hamas has admitted to at least 700 dead fighters, and they are probably understating. Hamas is responsible for ALL the deaths in Gaza because of their refusal to stop their attacks, and their determination to destroy the Jewish state. They don't care how many they lose to achieve their evil aims.
you have got to be one of the worst blind apologists I've ever seen. Israel could kill 300 civilians tomorrow and you would say it was Palestine's fault for having too much sunshine. Israel is as wrong as any other actor in this conflict, if not more so.
Of course next thing you'll say will include "not Israel's fault, Palestine sucks sand... Arabs started it, doesn't matter if Israel murders 10,000 civilians cause they started it... etc., etc."
To Truth
The US lost some 53 civilians in WWII. How many hundreds of thousands of civilians, and how many tens of thousands of babies did the USAF kill in WWII, in places like Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima? So was the US more responsible for the war than Germany or Japan going by that?
not relatable at all...those are sovereign countries. Palestine is an occupied state my funny thinking friend.
When the US was fighting for its life in WWII, it had no problem bombing and killing tens of thousands of children in aerial bombardments of civilian areas in Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, etc. But Israel is not allowed to defend itself in the same way. Israel has the same right to live as does America, and maybe more so, as it is ANCIENT JEWISH LANDS! And "Palestine" was never a state. It is a geographical name, like "New England" or "Latin America." It was never the name of an independent nation-state.
@jgarbuz "When the US was fighting for its life in WWII"
When exactly was that then? As I recall the people and lands of USA were NEVER under attack (pearl harvour is a small Island and military base) or under threat of attack during WW2. They really wanted to stay out of the war, seeing it as a European problem. Hiroshima is a difficult point, because millions of american boys would have to have died to take mainland Japan from an enemy that fought every bit as hard as they did and would not surrender. Dresden on the other hand is an APALLING example of grossly over amplified retaliation inflicted upon civilians from a nation that had already been beat. My late grandfather could never forgive himself for the inhumanity he was ordered to participate in. Sure the British public saw it as just at first, their own homes and families had been destroyed in the same way during the blitz, however all the Nazi destruction here does not add up to razing an entire city with no military significance to the ground. This is something as a nation we should be thoroughly ashamed of I know I am unfortunately there are those here who do not see it this way, but they are in the minority.
To use an infantile "they started it!" argument to justify similar kinds of inflated retaliation and attrocities is really offensive - my parents and teachers were never concerned about 'who started it' you've been naughty and you will accept your punishment as a consequence of your actions. So by your rationale, imagine yourself as a young child (shouldn't be that difficult judging by your arguments). Lets say your sister pokes you in the eye, so you retaliate by breaking her arm. Your father comes to see what has happened and you say "She started it!" Would your father think you'd acted appropriately? I doubt it.
The most dangerous religious delusion has been perpetrated upon those of the Jewish faith - that they are gods chosen people. It gives them the power to justify any acts against and subhamanize anyone who is not of their faith. And an more recent abherration is to extend that to 'land promised by god to gods chosen people' For goodness sakes can you show me the tenancy agreement? (and don't quote me ancient scripture I need something contemporary I don't hear 'god' backing you up now or ever actually) Anyway Deir Yassin was outside the denoted area of the Isreali 'Promised land' and was therefore an ILLEGAL act and Israel as a nation should be bl**dy ashamed, just like they should be ashamed of continuing these ILLEGAL settlements and displacement of Palestinian peoples to this day. Not only should they be ashamed, they should be brought to trial and conviction for their CRIMINAL acts. "Palestine" was never a state. ??? Palestine is a state this is a common Israeli LIE designed to help justify their abhorrent actions. The Palestinian people were there before you what gives you the right to remove and kill them? (Go on, say 'god' and prove my point about your religious delusion)
*sigh* and just as the US government vetoes a tenth UN resolution that would halt continueing Israeli illegal settlements whilst rhetorically agreeing with the resolutions content. I think 'U.S.A' should change its name to 'Greater Israel' they seem to suffer the same 'a thousand heads for an eye' mentality. BULLY BOYS THE WORLD IS WATCHING NOW, WE ALL SEE WHAT YOU DO. It is the most vile form of blasphemy, and you will reap the bitter reward one day. Nothing lasts forever, change will come. Until then, enjoy your blood money and the priviledge it buys you.
btw, good documentary, not inflammatory and very descriptive. :)
Well, the reason why the US mainland was not under direct attack was only because of the valiant fighting of the Chinese and Russian forces. My father was in the Red Army at Leningrad and finally in the Battle of Berlin. The Russians and Chinese did 70% of the fighting in WWII, and had they collapsed under Nazi and Japanese onslaught, then the US mainland would have come under direct invasion. We supplied the Russians and CHinese, and of course the British until finally and belatedly, US troops were able to enter the war. But the Russians and CHinese collapsed earlier on, the US mainland would have been as isolated and cutoff as Israel is surrounded today. So we have to thank the Russians and CHinese for tying down 65% of the German and Japanese armies till we could finally get up the trained manpower, ships and aircraft to get into the real fight. And the US did most of its brutal figthing from the air, so it could not show pictures of the hundreds of thousands burning on the ground. The Soviets did most of the dirty work on the ground, which is why we let them take Berlin, because our people could never do the dirty and brutal kind of figthing that was demanded to get Berlin to finally fall. WE left the dirty, non-picturesque work to our allies.
But I do stick to the contention that those who start wars are responsible for ALL the death and destruction that occur in wars. IN WWII it was the Japanese and Nazis who began the wars that we eventually were forced into, and in the MIddle East it is the Arabs who started the wars that Israel has had to fight, and the US only got involved when it was attacked on 9/11. Real war is brutal and never pretty, and enemies never surrender until thoroughly brutalized. That is a fact of history. Neither Hitler nor Tojo would surrender. It took raw, overwhelming brutal power to bring the enemies to their knees. The atomic bomb was a godsend. I dread what would have happened if a million US GIs had to fight their way up the Japanese islands faced by a population willing to die killing them if their Emperor had so demanded of them. Thankfully, the Emperor finally decided to end it, and told the people to lay down their arms and give in. Had he said otherwise, it would have been brutality beyond belief without the atomic bombs.
Those who start wars are responsible.
Operation Cast Lead was a war? Ha. It was a joke. My father was lucky to get dog meat in the 900 day seige of Leningrad. There was cannibalism, and over half a million died of starvation. In the Gaza miniwar, the ISraelis actually TELEPHONED Arabs in their houses telling them to leave because the area was going to be hit.
I worked outside of Sderot back in the mid 1980s when thousands of Gazans used to cross into Israel every day to work or get free health care. My ex-father in law used to bring his car in there for maintenance and repairs, because it was half priced compared to Israel. Life in Gaza was reasoably decent UNTIL the first intifada, when troublemakers decided to start up things. That was in December 1987. At that time I was actually sympathetic to the Palestinians, but no more. I have seen since then that they do not want peace, but the elimination of the Jewish state. They have dreams of "returning" to Ashdod, Ashkelon, or Beersheba. That is as realistic as any dream I might have had of returning to Boremel, Poland. Crazy ideas. The population of Gaza has trebled since I was there last. They have so many children that they could fill up EGypt. THey have absurd dreams and demands, and that is why the conflict cannot end. I see only much worse wars ahead if they do not change their mindset.
The reality is, that the conflict in the Middle East is not between Israel and the Arabs, but between democracy and ISlam. The two ideas are almost irreconcilable. Either democracy or Islamism will prevail, and if it is the latter, then horrors will get much worse. Iran is the main beneficiary as it sees itself as the new Shia Islamic PErsian empire that will rule over the Middle East and its oil resources in the coming future. Israel is merely the fly in the ointment. A nuclearized Iranian Islam will make Japan or the Soviet Union like nothing by comparison, once it controls oil supplies and prices. IT's goal is to bring down the West. ISrael is just the "L'il Satan." The Big Satan is the US and its ultimate target.
I agree with many of your points here jgarbuz, particularly that the Soviets and Chinese were the main workhorses of the allies in WW2 and that the use of atomic weapons in all probability brought a swift conclusion to a fight that would have cost the entire population of Japan aswell as likely all the young men in the states.
I must strongly disagree with the notion that those who started it are to blame for all of the destruction. The allies are responsible for murdering thousands of civilians in Dresden, as this was strategically unneccassary. The massacre described in this documentary was also unneccassary. To me is an Israeli crime with no rational means of justification and by your notion of who started it, the Palestinians are now justified to visit as much death and terror upon the Israelis as they like, even to the point of genocide? NO. this type of mental process is extremely immature and antagonistic - it doesn't help, in fact it makes things much worse. There are obviously many people on both sides of this particular conflict who do subscribe to this attitude and this is a major part of the problem. People are polarised into taking extreme action (to the greatest extent that they are capable of) for the militant Palestinians this means killing maybe 10 Israelis by blowing oneself up, and for the Israelis it means using gunships to drop HE on Palestinian villages killing 100s and the tragedy is the people dying on both sides are 99.9% innocent civilians - non-combatants.
In my view the U.S. government will be responsible for all the death and destruction that will occur as a direct result of their latest veto in the UN. Their spokeswoman said (a rough description not a quote) "We are worried that allowing the resolution regarding Illegal Israeli settlements in the contested territories may harden opposition on both sides and decrease the chances of restarting diplomatic negotiations" well, really? So what exactly has this veto actually achieved? exactly what they pretend to want to avoid. The U.S. has since the creation of the U.N. used its power of veto to undermine any power for effecting change that would have otherwise been usefull, at the same time cultivating within its own populace ridicule towards it. They can not leave the U.N. as they need their veto to keep this sabotage going - but all the time they promote the idea that the U.N. is impotent, which they themselves deliberatly cause. I think this is meant to achieve a world view that America and only America is up to the task of law enforcement on an international scale.
As an atheist, my view on both the Jewish and Islamic ideologies is objective, and I can see many problems in both. However the Jewish Israelis have to my mind a much deeper and serious problem with theirs, as I described above.
This has in part been caused by America, going back to a child analogy :
Israel=child1, Palestine=child2, USA=Parent or legal guardian of child1, Arabic nations and rest of global community=onlookers.
child1 : Waaaaah! Daddy, child2 just poked me in the eye!
Parent : Well, what are you going to do it, son?
child1 : I'm gonna break his stupid neck. *sniff*
Parent : Thats ma' boy. *ruffles hair of child1* Here take this baseball bat.
later that day,
child2 : na, na, nanaaa naaa!
child1 : *swings baseball bat* take that, child2! *CRACK!*
child2 : Waaaah! *falls to ground with a thud* Waaah! You broke my leg!
onlookers : Stop it child1! thats very very naugty! What will your parents say?
*parent arrives, onlookers explain that child1 has been naughty and ought to recieve proper discipline*
parent : Ahem... well.. yes child1 has been very naughty and ought to recieve proper discipline, however, I feel that by doing so it would hurt the chances of them becoming friends in the future and so therefore, the discipline will not be administered.
child1 : I did good, didn't I daddy? I showed him.
parent : Here son have a sweetie.
and repeat. child1s bad behaviour is reinforced in the knowledge that he is safe from reprimand. child2s animosity to child1 is bolstered as child1 can get away with anything whilst he himself does not have the tools to enact his own defence. Bad behaviour and antagonism becomes prevalent in both children.
heh.. I guess I got a little carried away there but my point stands. Discussion about these issues is crucial part of understanding the problems that they may one day be solved. Unfortunately since both sides soulutions now strongly echo the nazis final solution, they NEED to be mediated. US government disagrees with me I know but the rest of the world is with me here. The power of veto must be restricted somehow, especially if the vetoing member is the ONLY nation who disagrees with the new resolutions. Maybe require 2 vetoes to stop it passing? Anyway enough from me.
Hopes and prayers for the Israelis and Palestinians,
wow it censored St*p*d... bit OTT.
forgot about this thread...few points jgarbuz - if you are correct in that claim that 700 palestinians that died in operation cast lead were actually hamas then that leaves 700 murdered civilians, to 3 or 4 murdered israeli civilians on the other side -- so i guess in your eyes that makes it acceptable then? (lets not take into account how many of those who were a part of Hamas were civilian police officers, worked in offices, etc, and were not part of their militant wing)
skimmed everything else you wrote but i found this quite funny ¨The reality is, that the conflict in the Middle East is not between Israel and the Arabs, but between democracy and ISlam. The two ideas are almost irreconcilable. Either democracy or Islamism will prevail, and if it is the latter, then horrors will get much worse.¨ - jgarbuz
this is quite a ridiculous statement and i think current world events prove that beyond doubt. having seen what an incredibly powerful partisan lense you view the world through (Israel is Good and Righteous and Islam is Evil - and anyone who doesnt believe in this universal truth has been brainwashed by the liberal media) i bet you, like many other Israeli and US foreign policy apologists, would be first to defend Dictatorial Tyrants like Egypts Hosni Mubarak because he was friendly to Israel and ignored human rights abuses committed in Palestine.
Lets all hope that when a democratically elected government comes to Egypt that they stop ignoring the multiple human rights abuses and illegal collective punishment of the civilian poppulation of Gaza and the West Bank (illegal under the Geneva Convention of which Israel is a signatory) and decides to sever its relationship with Israel until it elects a government that legitimatelly wants peace (is not stonewalling for the settlers like Netanyahu) and has the power to stop those extremist settlers who are sadly holding Israel ransom.
Briefly, Israel allowed 8 years to go by while Sderot (a town made up of Jewish refugees from the Arab countries, mostly Moroccan Jews) was under constant mortar and rocket attacks. Now you may say, that very few Israelis were killed by these inaccurate rockets but if you had little kids that had only 15 seconds to run to shelters every other day, you'd be mad, especially after 8 years of it. Finally, after the 2006 Hezbollah war, and after Hamas did the same thing, kidnapping an Israeli soldier from the other side of the border, Israel had to react in a severe manner. No country would have waited 8 years to respond. THere was no way there was not going to be civilian casualties in such a crowded area. OTOH, it's crowded because the average number of children per family was 8 kids. As I said, Gaza trebled in population since I was last in the area some 20 years ago. They claim poverty, and yet they keep pouring out children like there's no tomorrow. THere is nothing else Israel could have done, nor to keep civilian casualties lower. Israel operated under great restraint. The US would never operate under such restraint. If the US had carried out that operation, the civilian casualties would have been tenfold as high, I'm sure. Also, the Gaza civilians voted in Hamas. They have to understand that voting for a party that calls on Jews to be killed wherever you find them is going to have consequences. SO, while any innocent death is to be deeply regretted, they were simply asking for it. I only hope they won't ask for more. I hope they learned the right lessons, which is to negotiate peace and not make war. Making war is creates brutal consequences.
A very good documentary. Dier Yassin will not be forgotten!
Your inaccurate post has nothing to do with the massacre of Deir Yassin. Do you accept that this massacre has consequences for israel?
And what were the Palestinians supposed to do when they got a phone call? Where could they go? They are surrounded and besieged. Your post is nonsense.
Israel is responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians, and so are Hamas.
Read about Jenin, read about the invasion of Lebanon, read about the bombing of the King David hotel It is time for an independent Palestine to be recognised by Israel, and only then can there be peace.
Deir Yassin is the fault of Israeli terrorists, they had a well conceived plan in Plan Dalit. This plan was part of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and it goes on today with the aparthied wall and the house destructions.
booooo jgarbuz the clock is ticking for the zionist regime bent on the destruction of the Palestinian people and there is no possible way that the daily atrocities they commit will last....we have you surrounded come out with your heads cut off
Free the Palestinian people!
what is it with you jewish people? for crying out loud it is 21st century! aren't you aware of the fact that people have cameras? and that denying the truth is no longer an option for the state of israel? you complained that palestinian state - i will call it a country regardless of what you think - had no democratic ways to govern themselves so when they did and voted hamas in a democratic way! you don't like it either?
you talk about innocent deaths as if it was a trivial thing in your life well i don't care about your deep regrets!
are you even aware of how 6 billion people around the world feel and think about you? why, because there are all corrupted? are you that naive and arrogant? you behave as if you had god given right to execute anybody that defies your state? the atrocities you commited will never be forgotten or wiped clean from the pages of history.
you wrote that palestinian have on average 8 children per family? and that "they claim poverty yet they keep pouring out children as if the is no tomorrow"? how dare you!!!
you are talking about ethnic cleansing you bastard!
isn't that what nazis where trying to do? and yet you turn around and commit genocide?
i am deeply offended by your comments and your state of mind, your attitude and disregard for other human beings.
you live in denial and that's what scares me because the day you kill all palestinians your guilt will not go away so you will pick on other nation and call it innocent deaths.
your religion doesn't allow you to lie yet you live your life in a lie? who gave you that right?
you are a bully and there is only one way to deal with bullies: we don't back up we bully back.
you want the country of palestine to negotiate peace? there is a simple solution: stop buldozers from destroing their homeland, give them back their land and recognize the atrocities you commited only then will you have peace that you want so much.
if you wish to respond to my letter than please do all i ask is that you will include the word in hebrew that you describe your women that marry non jews, have the courage to do that and don't coward your way out of this one by calling me a jew hater because i am a jew.
i agree.
who cares, it's war. it happens. get over it.
If you read about "Jenin" then you would know and understand about the most unbelieveable craven cynical nature of these alleged pals whom would have a reason to live without their hatred of the Jews.
How about a documentary on the massacre at Jewish prisoners Gush Etzion.
Or the 1929 massacre at Hebron.
How about an expose of amin Huysani, the grand Mufti of Jerusalem
and according the Yassir Arafat the founder of "palestinian nationalism."
This palestinian monster who is revered among those self styled palestinians
created the Hanser batallion of the Waffen SS and murdered close to500,000
people in Bosnia.
How come the atrocities of the Arabs who call themselves palestinians
are featured in any documentary.
Where is the documentary about the massacre of the Fogel family.
we shall overcome. go back to your country and none of what you've just mentioned will happen to you. how about leave arabs in peace and go back home? how about sabra &shatilla. how about kana? how about going to argentina as it was planned by zionists in the first place? how about .... jewish people got slaughtered in Europe so why put the blame on arabs and rape their land. ? how about orthodox jews saying that israel is a cancer?
Jews have gone back to their country, Israel.
Over a million Jews were not left in peace but were forced out of Arab countrieswith all their property stolen.
There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, other than the ancient Jews.
The modern term invented by Amin Huysani, the grand mufti of Jerusalem from1922 to 1936. According to arch terrorist Yassir Arafat he is the spiritual and political founder of this "Palestinian movement. He did not let any the Jews live in peace. He forced then out of Hebron and Gaza in 1929.
Talk about massacres what about hebron April 1929. The irony is Gaza is occupied, but not by Jews but by Arabs. This mufti also formed the Hanser division of the Waffen SS which killed thousands in Bosnia.
The Arabs are directly involved in the holocaust. It was Arab persecution as much as Nazithat helped create the state of Israel. Also, It is your Arab brethren that confined the so called Palestinians behind barbed wire after 1949. The Arabs who remained in Israel were given full citizenship rights.
They weren't subject to apartheid as in the Arab countries none of which give a damnabout the so called" Palestinians" other than to exploit them for their own purposes.
The people who have gone back to Israel are not Jews. They are Europeans. They should take DNA tests.
Guess what?
European Jews are not realted to the ancient people of Palestine to any greater degree than other Europeans.
DNA studies indicate that half of all European men can trace their genitic origin back to, at least in part, the Middle East / North Africa.
The best DNA research tells us that all of today's Jews are converts to Judaism.
Zionism is a myth. An interesting and creative myth but a myth with the dealiest of consequences for the true Semites, that is the Palestinians.
play the victim. God sees and knows all things.
How about the bomning of the king david hotel in juresulem, that is just one example of Isrealis going to the extremes of bombing thier own so they can gain preciouse propoganda. too bad they were exposed but not untill they killed thousands in retaliation. They continue to use these same tactics. They said Palestinians bombed a school bus, that was also staged. That is more like the conduct of an Isreali. Muslims do not intentionally target children unlike Isreal who does it all the time.
Im actually more disapointed at Arabs then Isreal. We are a mess and thats a fact. We cannot agree on anything and whenever there is an important decision to be made we argue like crazy people. We too are leting greed cloud our morality and faith. An Isreali or America can buy off many, well I won't name call. But until we get our selves in order and look at the big picture and look at eachother as family with no chance of anyone deviding us wether sunni, shiite, kurdish or arab or any other muslim. We are one in Allah and we have really forgotten this. Things will only continue to get worse until thiss happens. Now after the Arab spring Isreal and the U.S, know exactly what they will do next while we are absuolutely clueless. We are smarter than that I have to believe that the way we are is not the way we have to be. Wake up. We are dishonoring our selves our families our values and our faith. Muslim killing Muslim is not acceptable regardless especially when it is being instigated by an outside source.
palestine and its people have been around way before 1922
Jews were in Israel centuries before there were any Arabs.
As for your other nonsense just read my previous posts.
But to summarize. The arabs, especially the Palestinians were directly
involved in the European holocaust through their political and
religious leader Amim Huysani.
And Isreal was settled almost as much by Jews forced out of Arab countries as by the european Jews.
The so called Palestinians should settle in argentina. Maybe there
they won't be subject to apartheid from the other arabs who have
confined them to camps and treat them as an underclass
Yes we shall overcome, all the Arab lies.
What about the massacre of unarmed prisoners at Gush Etzion
or medical personnel at Mount Scopus.
The King david hotel was the headquarters of the British
command which was responsible for killing hundreds of Jews.
Yes the Palesinians bombed a school bus and many other civilian
targets. they make martyrs out of the killers.
Muslims most certainly target children, not just jewish
children but their own. how many mosques were blown up
with worshippers inside by other moslems. The fight between
Shi'ite and Sunni has killed more Moslem civilians than any Israeli action.
Sooo walterr...your pointing out that some palestinians are terrorists and kill people. Ok...what does that have to do with the morality of israel's actions? Would "the jews have killed people too" be a good excuse for another hamas bus bombing!? I think not.... in fact thats exactly the excuse being used by both sides (eye for an eye targeted killing policies by the idf...and then katushen rockets in response by hezbolah). Your rush to blame the other side and not explain THIS action is telling. As is your claim there is no docs on palistinian terrorists! People know about this man it gets TONS of news cover. There are just way more anti-israel docs because they are the big brother of the 2 sides and people gravitate to the underdog, plus the usual rampant anti-semitism.
"the so called palistinians should settle in argentina Maybe there
they won't be subject to apartheid from the other arabs"
I agree with you that other arabs have been very bad to the palistinians.And that there is a ton of weird lies in the arab sphere out there.
But the focus should not be who is to blame or who killed more x at this point. The current situation on the ground has the IDF repressing the people of palestine, which makes them fight back with terror, which in turn makes the Israelis target the perpetrators and lock down supplies to the west bank even more, which in turn makes the palestinians feel more repressed and teh entire cycle starts again.
Perhaps you should get the C.I.A to displace the argentinians that have been living there for 4 generations then call it the "palistinians home" and see if thats a good idea...
How about the Arab massacring Jews at Mount Scopus and gush Etzion? As far as Deir Yassin you conveniently leave out that Syrian troops had occupied the town and were cutting off supplies to JerusalemThe What thousands are you talking about? A staged bombing of a school bus??? The damned murderous Palestinians have madde a martyr out of the bomber.
After 1967 the so called palestinians in Judea and Samaria were free
to travel into Israel and work there. This continued until terrorists
started targeting busses schools shopping centers. Israel did what any country would do. It put restrictions on travel to stop the murders. It built a wall to separate the murderers from Israeli citizens. Nothern Ireland did a similiar thing during the Catholic Protestant war, No one yelled apartheid.The number of murders in Israel went way down after that wall. You talk about the morality of israel's action. the so called palestinians make heros out of suicide bombers. Their schoolspreach the destruction of the Jews in Israel. There is nothing likethat taught in Israeli schools about the so called Palestinians.
Here is an excerpt from the Hamas Charter of 1988 chapter 7
"The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"
Fatah's charter 1968
"The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine."
So it's clear when you strip this trash of its phony rhetoric about imperialist that Fatah has no real intention of accepting a two state solution and living in peace in Israel.
The problem with Israel is that it has been too restrianed in
reacting to the atrocities of the Islamofascist palestinians.
Any other country, when faced with such an amoral homicidal enemy
would have annihilated them and not try fruitless negogiations
with a pack of liars and murderious monsters.
In 1999 Olmert offered Arafat almost everything he wanted but
Arafat summarily rejected it. Even sleazebag Bill Clinton, no great
friend of Israel, blamed the Palestinians for rejecting the offer.
"You talk about the morality of israel's action. the so called palestinians make heros out of suicide bombers"
Looks like your parroting the same point again there walterr44. I can see where this "debate" is going to go with someone as close minded as you.
"But the focus should not be who is to blame or who killed more x at this point." Did you EVEN READ my post. I AGREE THAT HAMAS IS VERY VERY BAD. A smart person concentrates on the motivation of both sides and how to create PEACE. People like you blindly commenting "oh there worse then us so OUR action are all ok" is EXACTLY why this is hard to solve.
Religion has been agruing over palestine for thousands of years (i assume,walterr44, u know this). What im not so sure if you know is that just after world war 2 lots of jews where going to palestine and getting turned back by the british so the UN set up a new mandate plan for jerusalem and arabs to have 2 seperate states around jarusalem. The jews accepted...the arabs didn't. The old conflict just rolled on; They started to attack the jews and they counterattacked. THE DAY before the mandate was to run out Ben-Gurion anounced the creation of israel.So the palestinians DO have a POINT when they whine about there land being taken away by the jews .IT WAS. Does that excuse terrorism of any sort,of course not. But the truth walter is neither side respected the UN...they just dived into a very old conflict. Both sides religion is to blame. Palestinians..arabs..who cares what you call them...saying they should be wiped out doesnt make you sound very smart.
What about them? Yet again i think we both agree there is alot of inexcuseable terrorism directed at israel and the jews, You can stop listing them we agree. Thats in fact what makes mediating this situation so tricky; the arabs being so damn crazy. Ah but why mediate peace when your plan to go beyond walls and just "annihilate" the problem sounds so brilliant!! The funny thing is that sounds alot like the Hamas plan for Israel. But your od course morally much better then those "pack of liars and murderious monsters" right :).
P.s. To spell this out to you "annihilating" the palestinians would of course involve a massive running battle betweem hamas and the IDF resulting in a nasty conflict with TONS of katushen rockets being lobbed into israel. And besides the global reaction to civilian deaths and the fact that israel would even do that would end a large part of the critical us/israel military co-operation.
Read the handwriting on the bloody wall. It takes two to negogiate.
In 1999 Olmert offered Arafat almost everything he asked for
Arafat's answer, the so called infitada. so what is there to "negogiate"
Let me spell it out for you. Munich was a negogiated settlement for
peace in our time. Had Britan and France gone to was in 1938 they would
have defeated a not yet ready Hitler. You can't negogiate with Nazis.
Oh, the Nazi analogy is not far fetched. Let me repeat part of my previous posts
The modern term Palestinian was invented by Amin Huysani, the grand mufti of Jerusalem from1922 to 1936. According to arch terrorist Yassir Arafat he is the spiritual and political founder of this "Palestinian movement.
Amin huysani organized the Hansar division of the WAffen SS
Let me quote an excerpt from Hamas charter 1988 chapter 7
"The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!
Let me quote you
"But your od course morally much better then those "pack of liars and murderious monsters" right :)."
RIGHT!! a thousand times right. Annihilating the Jewish state is their goal.
The whole concept of a Palestinian nation was twisted brain child of Huysani
and his goal was to exterminate Jews :(
It's time for israel to learn from the mistakes of Munich and act while Israel
still has a military advantage. Already Arab oil and the sheer number of muslims have poisoned public opinion with their tsunamis of lies.
It is immoral not to defend your citizens when it is clear that there is an enemy resolutely seeking to massacre you.
You ignored my points...AGAIN..you.. didn't refute of even TALK ABOUT ONE. oh and you made the exact same point again the third time. AFTER I AGREED WITH YOU. But hey what did i say in my first post with you?
"Looks like your parroting the same point again there walterr44. I can see where this "debate" is going to go with someone as close minded as you."
Indeed. Since your first response in 4 posts to ANY of my points was to just clearly quote me out of context! I got your position the first time and..you know typed something based on what you said.You need to defend youself dude.
For example you cant deny people where displaced when israel was created walterr, as amazing as this must sound to you there where people living there when the cia gave the jews that land, it wasnt completly empty. And they where not all nazi terrorists.
Placing a "haven" for already prosecuted jews after WW2 in the most holy/contested place in the world was..not smart on the part of the cia (all my jewish friends agree on that one; cuz its obvious)
What right do the jews have to palestine when muslims and christians also claim it. (i say this as a atheist observer)
The understandable and right decision to crack down and checkpoint/wall in areas to stop crazed cowardly suicide bombers from killing scores of civilians has created a ghettoised population with a feeling of inferiority thats breeding MORE suicide bombers. You seem to get very upset and list attacks and parrot palestinians are bad when i say this.
Plz elaborate on your "act while Israel
still has a military advantage" perhaps pointing out(defend your points?) why it would not be a stupid overly hawkish thing to do that would result in more terrorist attacks against israel and a complete loss of the U.S. support that gave you that millitary advantage in the first place!
To KarpKomet
• No I do not take your quotes out of context. I distill them down to their basic fallacies.
• "For example you can't deny people where displaced when Israel was created walterr, as amazing as this must sound to you there where people living there when the cia gave the Jews that land, it wasn't completely empty. And they were not all Nazi terrorists."
The cia, what are you talking about?? The state department and
just about all other American agencies were opposed to the creation
of Israel for reasons ranging from anti-Semitism (rife in the state department then) to a legitimate belief that the Jews didn't have a chance. Harry Truman recognized Israel over many objections.
But no military aid was given to the Jews in the war of liberation
About 15% of the people living there were Jews during the mandate.
There would have been more but British restricted Jewish emigration when Jews needed it most at the behest of the Arabs who were also accepting money and support from the Nazis.
Maybe this will sound amazing to you, but the Jews accepted the partition plan of 1947. Neither side liked it but it would have brought peace and leave most of the populations in place.
The Arabs chose war and vowed to drive out the Jews.
Instead the Arabs lost and there were Arabs displaced instead of Jews.
And now the Arabs have the nerve to complain when they were planning to drive all the Jews, including the Jewish groups who had been living there for centuries. Yes, Arabs were displaced but it was their fault. Amazing isn't it?
Of course there is the small matter of 750,000 Jews being forcibly displaced from
Arab lands, 600,00 settled in Israel. but Jews don't count only Arabs do.
"Placing a "haven" for already prosecuted Jews after WW2 in the most holy/contested place in the world was..not smart"
srael is the biblical homeland of the Jews. It was the Jewish homeland centuries before there
was an Islam and millennia before there were any modern nation. The Jewish nation was one of the few
that rose against Roman tyranny, not once but twice. And for two thousand years were prevented from
going back. Since the crusades the Christians have given up the idea of a Christian nation beingestablished there. All they ask is to be given access to their holy sites, which Israel grants.
The mole reverence for Jerusalem and the Al Asia mosque is very recent. Jerusalemis not mentioned in the Koran and was in bad disrepair when under Arab control.
The fact that you don't care about its religious significance doesn't make its significance irrelevant. There are people who don't care about freedom, but that doesn't diminish freedoms importance to Americans
• No I do not take your quotes out of context. I distill them down to their basic fallacies.
ok lets first quickly look at my post you distilled down to their basic fallacies;
"[What about them?] Yet again i think we both agree there is alot of inexcuseable terrorism directed at israel and the jews, You can stop listing them we agree. Thats in fact what makes mediating this situation so tricky; the arabs being so damn crazy. Ah but why mediate peace when your plan to go beyond walls and just "annihilate" the problem sounds so brilliant!! The funny thing is that sounds alot like the Hamas plan for Israel. But your od course morally much better then those "pack of liars and murderious monsters" right :)."
I think that was pretty clear in saying how do we move beyond that reality to peace. And that you saying we should "annihilate" the problem has ominous overtones on the same morall level as hamas. They often call for the "annihilation" of israel. What the hell do they mean by that I think. Politically destroying of physically destroying.Its a creepy thing to say. I was OBVIOUSLY pointing out your "annihilate" comment was creepy just like hamas talking about israel and asking you to expand on it. (i cant say im shocked you didn't) You just thought it was some direct challenge?....distill again.
Sooo ya.... i was telling you i understood your position and agreed that many palestinians are bad and want to destroy israel but you just want to tell me there bad AGAIN.
"Thats in fact what makes mediating this situation so tricky; the arabs being so damn crazy."
i cant help ignore tha fact you sidestepped my central point on your last post as well.
"The understandable and right decision to crack down and checkpoint/wall in areas to stop crazed cowardly suicide bombers from killing scores of civilians has created a ghettoised population with a feeling of inferiority thats breeding MORE suicide bombers. You seem to get very upset and list attacks and parrot palestinians are bad when i say this.
Plz elaborate on your "act while Israel
still has a military advantage" perhaps pointing out(defend your points?) why it would not be a stupid overly hawkish thing to do that would result in more terrorist attacks against israel and a complete loss of the U.S. support that gave you that millitary advantage in the first place!"
(again no response despite your eagerness to correct me on the cia thing..that i was indeed wrong about)
but ya on that post i would just say it looks like we both support a 2 state solution? :)
"Maybe this will sound amazing to you, but the Jews accepted the partition plan of 1947."
"Yes, Arabs were displaced but it was their fault. Amazing isn't it?"
aah..so all the people LIVING there when the U.N. created israel where displaced but it was THERE fault...ok...you know i can agree with that if you clarify arabs as arab leaders. And that NEITHER side complied fully with the U.N.(wikipedia) Of course with the Arabs starting it all by not accepting the UN mandate and being so crazy. But i think you would agree that was entirely predictable stance hence my "Placing a "haven" for already prosecuted Jews after WW2 in the most holy/contested place in the world was..not smart" quote......it wasnt.
"It was the Jewish homeland centuries before there
was an Islam and millennia before there were any modern nation"
sigh..you can understand how an atheist migh tire of those claims.
Do jews have a better claim to jarusalem then arabs? YES. Does/ should that matter in 1940's policy making..yes but 2 a limit. Using biblical quotes to prove that is a slippery slope. I think il just say be very carefull about REAL historical evidence and BIBLICAL quotes. That of course im applying equal to the arabs and christians.
"the mole reverence for Jerusalem and the Al Asia mosque is very recent"
What about the dome of the rock (earliest islamic structure!) or the fact that jarusalem used to be the old mecca?! Or the fact thet religions have very little to do wit hhistory anyway. My point being perhaps all 3 religions have good reason to view the site as holy. For example should i beleive the korans version of king solomon or the torahs? :)
"sigh..You can understand how an atheist might tire of those claims"
Yes, and that's the problem. The combatants here are not atheists. They take religion very seriously and are not going to end this conflict by surrendering their beliefs. The core of this conflict is not about national rights of the so-called Palestinians. It's not about water rights or trade.
Can you understand how one who has followed this dispute can tire of the phony claims of the Palestinians (actually Jordanians) and the rest of the Moslem world?
"What about the dome of the rock (earliest Islamic structure!) or the fact that Jerusalem used to be the old Mecca?!"
Go to the Koran and do a word search for Jerusalem or in fact, Jerusalem by any other name and you will find nothing.
Go to t the Jewish bible (the Old Testament) and you will find Jerusalem in almost every chapter.
Yes, originally Mohammed viewed Jerusalem as holy and worshipped toward it. Originally, he took almost all his beliefs from Judaism, including the dietary laws. But when he was in control of Medina (Yathrib) during the war with the Meccans he signed a pact with the Jews who were predominant in the city. However, very quickly he tried to impose
his new religion which was a plagiarized form of Judaism on the Jews. The Jews then switched loyalties to the Meccans during the battle of the trench in 627. Mohammed won the battle and massacred the Jews. The first recorded Moslem atrocity of which there would be many others. He then disavowed Jerusalem and since that time Jerusalem
played almost no role in Islam. It is a Moslem belief that Mohammed ascended to heaven at this dome of the rock which almost happens to be the ruins of the second temple. But it's not mentioned in the Koran
and in fact the location where this alleged ascent occurred is speculation.
From 1949 t0 1967 when Jordan occupied East Jerusalem and forcibly expelled the Jewish population
(East Jerusalem was the centuries old Jewish quarter.) The Jews were denied access to the Kotel, the western Wall until Jerusalem was liberated in 1967. When it was liberated there were many orthodox Jews who
wanted the mosque torn down and the third temple erected. The Israeli government refused because it hoped to end the conflict and return most of the lands in exchange for recognition of Israel as a Jewish state.
The mole answer was the Khartoum declaration declaring eternal war with Israel.
To be brief Israel has made every effort for peace, in 1999 Olmert offer Arafat almost everything the Palestinians wanted but was immediately refused. Arafat didn't even try to negotiate. Even Clinton, no real friend of Israel, blamed Arafat for refusing and prolonging the conflict.
The so-called Palestinians have been treated as second-class citizens in every Moslem country they are in.
They are being used as a foil to destroy Israel because the Moslems believe Israel to be a heretic state in a mole sea. Lest you think this antipathy is confined only to Jews, the Grand Mufti of
Saudi Arabia called for the expulsion of all Christians from Jerusalem. In every Moslem country Christians have been fleeing. The only Middle Eastern country where they are entering is the only Middle Eastern country where all religions are free to practice, Israel.
The Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. They view any peace accord with Israel as only a first step in the destruction of the Jewish state. The tragedy is that this phony cause, this false national movement, has gained credence through years of mass murder, terror,
lies, and with the help of oil money, large mole populations, and anti Semitism under the euphemistic phrase of "oh I'm just against Israel's policies" has had gained credence.
oh for the love of god will stop these lies .. how the hell would israel existence be legal ?.. killing 750 people & erasing their entire peacefull village is freedom fighting? oh please you make me wanna puke..you have a sick poisoned mind
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Site MIO01: Craig's Creek Recreation Area at Oriskany, VA
Elevation: 1020 ft. The drive into Craig's Creek Recreation Area provides a vista of meadows and woodlands that follow Craig's Creek. A splendid viewshed creates a prime opportunity for visitors to see the flora and fauna of this wildlife-rich habitat. After passing the signboard at the entrance look to the fields on the right. This area is specially managed for the northern bobwhite that can be heard giving their characteristic 'bob-white' whistle at any time of the day. Although more elusive to the eye, a patient observer scanning the fields or prominent perches from where bobwhite males call can turn up a sighting. The mix of annual grain crops, native warm season grasses and native shrubs offer a rich habitat for all types of songbirds as well as birds of prey. Continue on to the parking area and wander downhill to Craig's Creek. This exquisite watercourse supports all sorts of wildlife. Area regulars, great blue and green herons, are occasionally joined by wood duck and belted kingfisher. Examine stream banks for roosting dragonflies such as black-shouldered spinylegs or roosting damselflies such as powdered dancer and American rubyspot. In the spring, the creek bank offers a spectacular vista of blooming blue bells, one of the best in the area. The area around the picnic area hosts both open country and woodland birds, with indigo buntings and chipping sparrows appearing side-by-side with Carolina wrens and tufted titmice.
From I-81 in Salem, take exit #140 for SR 311 north. Follow SR 311 for 22.0 miles to New Castle. In New Castle, turn right on Rt. 615 and follow it northeast 12.1 miles to Rt. 817. Turn right and go 0.5 miles. Veer right onto the gravel road and continue 1.3 miles to the parking area at the end of the road.


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New York Times
Caine's refreshing variations on the classics open up a lot of new possibilities for so-called serious music.
The artistic dialogue of Uri Caine and George Gershwin is long overdue. Now, to the delight of music fans everywhere, Caine has chosen Gershwin's outstanding masterpiece "Rhapsody in Blue" as the core piece of his new interpretations, filling this amazing opus with a fresh spirit featuring jazzy notes, intoxicating rhythms, and even klezmer influences!
Album Notes
Adapter: Uri Caine.
Personnel: Theo Bleckmann, Barbara Walker (vocals); Joyce Hammann (violin); Chris Speed (clarinet, tenor saxophone); Ralph Alessi (trumpet); Uri Caine (piano); Mark Helias (acoustic bass); Jim Black (drums).
Recording information: Avatar Studios, New York, NY (12/2012).
Editor: Adrian von Ripka.
Photographers: Carl Van Vechten; Sinje Dillenkofer.
Arranger: Uri Caine.
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Also Purchased
Oscar Pettiford: Lost Tapes: Germany 1958/1959 [Digipak] *
John Medeski: A Different Time [Digipak]
Craig Taborn/Craig Taborn Trio: Chants *
Paul Motian: Old & New Masters [Box]
Marius Neset: Birds
Giovanni Guidi/Giovanni Guidi Trio: City of Broken Dreams
Omni Uno: Duets [Digipak]
Charnett Moffett: The Bridge: Solo Bass Works [Digipak]
Laszlo Gardony: Clarity [Digipak] *
See Also
- Think (Fresu, Paolo)
- Azoy Tsu Tsveyt (Rubin, Joel)
- Siren (Uri Caine Trio)
- Sonic Boom [Digipak] (Bennink, Han)


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Zombie signs up for Bloodstock 2015
Happy post Halloween everyone! And what a way to start the day than to announce Rob Zombie is going to be in the UK next August and will, for the first time ever, play Bloodstock 2015. He will headline the final night of the Catton Park metalfest on August 9th and promises to bring his mind-blowing full production to the show.
"I am so ready to get on a plane, and get my ass over to merry ol' England for Bloodstock," says Zombie. "We've had some of the best shows of our lives over there and can't wait to add this to the list. Besides, it's called 'Bloodstock' so how could it not be bloody fucking fun?"
Tickets are available now. Go to: http://bloodstock.seetickets.com/event/bloodstock-2015/catton-park/809956
Bookmark the tour page here at robzombie.com for this and more dates.
Grimm Up North to host screening of The Lords of Salem
Grimm Up North, home to horror and cult movies, in Manchester UK, will be hosting a premiere screening of The Lords of Salem on Saturday 20th April, 7pm.
To purchase tickets: http://www.thedancehouse.co.uk/whats_on/autumn_winter_2002/event_274.asp
To find out more about Grimm Up North: http://grimmfest.com/grimmupnorth/
The Lords of Salem gets a UK release date
Rob Zombie fans in the UK who are eagerly awaiting for a release date for the forthcoming movie The Lords of Salem, wait no longer – here is the information you need. The Lords of Salem will be out on limited cinema release on April 26th. It will be available on DVD from April 29 and it is already available to pre-order from Amazon UK (click).
To see the full poster for the film's UK release (more…)


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My brother met up with my husband and I at Cannon Beach, Oregon and the 3 of us had a great time exploring and photographing the area. We then headed east driving along the Columbia River and to Cascade Locks, Oregon. Thank you for viewing our book! You can also follow Karleen Gansberg Photography on facebook.
I would also like to invite you to visit my bookstore for several other great photo books featuring these 3 photographers - Karleen Gansberg, Dick Ripley, Duane Gansberg
Find out more about KARLEEN GANSBERG at http://photoKEG.zenfolio.com or follow me on Facebook at - Karleen Gansberg Photography
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Balloons Come In Many Colors Published September 23, 2011
Oregon Wildlife Published September 18, 2011
Sibling Inspirations Published November 11, 2010
OUT MY BACK DOOR Published July 15, 2009
Buddy's Big Acre Published June 09, 2009
Roses Are Not ONLY Red Published February 09, 2009
The Garden Kitties Published October 21, 2008


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Day 1: Arrival in Kinshasa and transfer to the hotel, briefing and lunch.
Day 2: Arrival in Goma at 02:00 pm from Kinshasa. Transfer to the hotel and briefing. Dinner and overnight.
Day 3: At 6:30 am, after an early breakfast, departure to Nyiragongo Volcano. At 7:30 am, beginning of the volcano climbing, lunch. At 18:00 pm, dinner and overnight stay in tented campement on the volcano. We admire the glow of the hot lava flow.
Day 4: At 8:30 am, return to Goma. At 13:00 pm, lunch at the hotel and relax. A city tour in Goma and its surroundings Drive on the shores of Lake Kivu, visit the volcano green and dark lakes, Sake market. Walking on lava flows of different ages, especially the 2002 flows. At 18:00 pm, dinner in hotel.
Day 5: At 5:00 am early breakfast. 5:30 am, departure to Jomba/Bukima. 7:30 am, 1-4 hours hike each way for Gorilla trekking. Lunch at Jomba or Bukima lodges. Pygmy dances. 16:00 pm, dinner and overnight in Jomba.
Day 6: 7:30 am, breakfast. After breakfast, we'll go and visit the caves of Djomba and some different villages from the region; 18:00 pm, return to the hotel, dinner and overnight.
Day 7: At 8:30 am, breakfast. Visit of the Rutshuru Falls and the nearby Mayi Ya Moto hot springs. At 15:00 pm, return to Goma, dinner and overnight.
Day 8: At 9:00 am, breakfast and boat trip on Lake Kivu to "Paradise Island of Idjwi". At 16:00 am, return to Goma, dinner and overnight.
Day 9: At 8:00 am, Breakfast and climb of Mount Goma. Visit of the vulcanologic observatory of Goma. City tour for shopping. At 16:00 pm, dinner and overnight.
Day 10: At 9:00 am, breakfast. At 12:30 pm, transfer to Goma airport and departure for Kinshasa. At 18:00 pm, arrival in Kinshasa, transfer to the hotel.
Day 11: At 8:00, breakfast. Departure at 9:00. We'll start with the memorial of the former DRC president Kabila, the statue of Patrice Lumumba, the first Prime Minister who has been murdered in the beginning of independence. We go further to Kinkole, a fishermen village, and will visit the local market. From there by boat, down streams, back to Kinshasa. At 12:00 embarkation and lunch on board on road, we can see how the river transport with goods and passengers goes on and we can imagine the wealth of the city in the past. At 13:30, arrival in Kinshasa and going further on to the rapids of Kinsuka. At 14:00-14:30, arrival and visit of the rapids. At 18:00, arrival in the hotel. Dinner at 19:00.
Day 12: Kinshasa - visit of the fabrication of artwork of bronze, wood sculpture and handmade furniture. Breakfast at 8:00. Departure at 9:00. We'll visit different workshops and we'll see how bronze and Malachite, paintings, wood sculpture and handmade furniture will be born, out of the hands of their creator. Lunch at 12:30. At 13:30 we'll continue the tour and will visit also " Gare Centrale", the market were all art and souvenirs are exposed and if we still have enough time, also " Symphonie Des Arts", with an exposition of really top quality art products. At 18:00, arrival in the hotel. Dinner at 19:00.
Day 13: Kinshasa - chute de Lukaya and the Bonobo sanctuary. Breakfast at 8:00. Departure at 9:00. Passing the suburbs of Kinshasa, direction Bas-Congo, we'll arrive at "chute de Lukaya". Visit of the Bonobo reserve, a sanctuary for orphaned Bonobo-monkeys, one of the five Great Apes, and the closest to mankind Visit of Chutes de Lukaya - a recreational domain outside Kinshasa. Swimming possibility. Transfer to hotel at 16:30. Arrival in the hotel at 18:00. Dinner at 19:00.
Day 14: At 7:00 am, breakfast and transfer to the airport for check in and departure.
About This Supplier
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Africa Congo Democratic Republic of the Congo Rwanda Nature & Wildlife National Parks Hiking & Trekking
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The 38 students who traveled to the Utah State campus is Logan to compete in the 3A tournament on March 11, were tested with questions from the following topics: geometry, algebra, number theory, combinatorics, and probability, in roughly equal numbers from each category, according to Debbie Alcox, PCHS teacher.
Teachers involved in preparing the students for the competition were Donna Hall, Andrea Payne and Erin Colberg.
Two levels were tested during the event junior (7-9 grades) and senior (10-12 grades). Nine students competing out of Park City High School swept the tournament in team events, all finishing in first place.
In the tenth grade team competition, Dominic Croce, Douglas Nagie and Charlie Martz won their division.
Elanor Johnston, Subiabre Macarena and Devon Dunmire won the 11th grade division.
The the top finishers from the senior level were John Runberg, Nigel Long and Zachary Mimlitz.
"This type of success takes effort from the students as well as a solid foundation given to them by all their math teachers throughout their educational career," Alcox said. "The students did a fantastic job."


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About Us
Marketing Research Professionals, Inc. provides marketing research expertise, consulting and access to a wide variety of marketing research freelancers.
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We offer senior level expertise in a number of areas including:
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From simple studies to complicated research programs, we help companies get the most mileage and actionable learning out of limited research dollars.
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Olympic Fencing, A Fun Sport!
Fencing is a fun and exciting sport that anyone can learn. The Minnesota Sword Club has been developing fencers since 1982 at its present location. Besides excellent facilities we provide professional instruction for adults, teens, youths and competitive minded fencers. Most of the Minnesota Sword Club members are recreational fencers, but many compete for the challenge and excitement. Some of our past and present youngsters have developed into national level champions and have been chosen for international teams representing the United States in world competitions. Others have received college scholarships for their performances as high school competitors. However, the main reason people fence is simply because it's fun.
Cell Phone Users -Click 3 White Lines in Upper Left Corner For Menu
- People fence Because:
- It's fun and exciting!
- To exercise without being bored
- To find a great recreational or competitive sport
- To meet other interesting people
- To try a new activity without needing to purchase equipment
To look at what other people have written about the Minnesota Sword Club click the links below.
WCCO TV July 9, 2013
Star Tribune July 2011
Hopkins Patch May 2011
Star Tribune 2008
See a quick video below.


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Maria Zhang, a senior director of engineering at Yahoo! Mobile, is being sued by a female subordinate, Nan Shi, who worked as a senior software engineer at the company since February 2013. According to a lawsuit filed July 11 in the Superior Court of Santa Clara in San José, Calif., Zhang forced Shi to give her "oral and digital sex" on multiple occasions against her will. According to a July 12 CNNMoney report, the lawsuit alleges that Zhang told Shi that she would have a "bright future" in Yahoo if she maintained relations with Zhang. The suit also names Yahoo! as a defendant.
The complaint indicates that Shi reported the harassment to Yahoo's human resources. However, the HR personnel of the company refused to carry out an investigation when she complained about the behavior of her direct supervisor. Instead, according to the plaintiff, Shi was suspended without pay, and eventually was fired from her position in the company.
A Yahoo! spokesperson told CNNMoney that "there is absolutely no basis or truth" to the allegations against the executive. "Maria is an exemplary Yahoo executive and we intend to fight vigorously to clear her name," the spokesperson said in an email.
Shi alleges that when she rejected Zhang's further advances for sex, her supervisor began to retaliate against her. Shi was then removed as lead from projects and had others promoted from beneath her to supervise her, according to the suit.
The lawsuit accuses Zhang of "unfairly downgrading her performance reviews for the second and third quarters of 2013" after Shi no longer accepted her sexual requests. Shi is seeking compensatory and punitive damages.


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Fired from AMR at 0159 hours EST, impacted at the predicted range. This success proved conclusively that the planned ablative-type heat protection for Jupiter warheads was satisfactory. The missile was a three-stage configuration--the first stage an elongated Redstone missile, the second and third stages 11 and 3 six-inch scaled Sergeant rockets, respectively. The one-third scale Jupiter nose cone was attached to the final stage with scheme for separation provided. The nose cone travelled to a 1,168 nm range, reached a velocity of 4,004 m/sec, and experienced a total heat input at stagnation point at 95% of that for the full scale nose cone at 1,500 nm. Naval units recovered the scaled nose cone according to plan.
This was the second and final manned suborbital Mercury Redstone flight, and the first flight with trapezoidal window. Further suborbital flights (each astronaut was to make one as a training exercise) were cancelled. An attempt to recover the capsule in very deep water in 1994 not successful. It was finally raised in the summer of 1999.


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How to Win a Nobel Prize in Economics
By Gregp on May 09, 2005
Time will tell whether last Friday's U.S. Court of Appeals "broadcast flag" ruling will stand up under further appeal (or, possibly, Congress subsequently passes a law giving the FCC explicit authority on the topic). However it turns out, it's going to raise a lot of public debate and, with hope, awareness on the whole topic of digital rights: who gets to do what with whose bits?
This debate gets unconstructively polarized by absolutism. "The creators of bits own and control them", at one pole. "The consumers of bits get to do with them what they darn well please", at the other. I seldom find either one of these positions tolerable to listen to for long because both are fundamentally flawed. And, both sides deep down know it.
Deep down, creators know that they are also consumers. All artistic endeavor builds upon what went before it. Film makers re-tell millenia-old stories, mixing in their own life experiences. Software developers recast patterns and algorithms, adding their own nuances and insights.
And, consumers know (abstractly, at least) that denying creators compensation will ultimately undermine the enterprises of entertainment and software.
The tension between creators (producers) and consumers is ultimately about economics. In reasonable marketplaces this gets sorted out with a supply-demand equilibrium set by price. As supply becomes scarce relative to demand, prices increase. As supply becomes abundant relative to demand, prices fall. Microeconomics 101.
It works because physical goods (atoms) are rivalrous. If I sell you an apple, you've got it and I don't; supply just got decremented. But it breaks down in the digital world because bits ain't. If I sell you some bits, you've got them and I do too; supply is unaffected.
The historical way of dealing with this is to tie the bits with some atoms (e.g., imprint them on a CD), and pretend like we are in a traditional economy. That worked pretty well --- if I sell you my CD, I'm deprived of it --- until it got really cheap to copy and store the bits off of the CD. I could make a copy, give you my CD, and I still enjoy the bits.
This was still okay, to a point, because it required effort and energy to redistribute the CD. But with the relentless growth in Internet access bandwidth, \*distribution\* costs are also driven to zero. The result is that just about everything we have come to depend upon in capitalist markets disintegrates.
Bearing in mind that it still costs real money to create those bits (a song, a movie, a program), but essentially zero dollars to give everyone connected a copy, well, Houston, We Have a Problem. DRM, broadcast flags, copy protection and the like are designed to "solve" this redistribution problem by making it tough to do so. Mostly, I think these attempts will fail because the tighter you try to make the system, the more they inconvenience the consumer.
What's the answer? It's neither the perfection of DRM, nor the absolution of digital property rights. I am sure that there IS aneconomic system that solves the problem. I don't know what it is, but I can speculate about its properties.
I want to start by turning this all around by thinking about the people who are LEAST able to pay for bits. The world's economically poor. That is, most of the people with whom we share this planet. If you produce some bits --- say, a program, a movie, research or a textbook --- it literally costs you nothing to share these bits with people who couldn't come even close to affording what people on the connected side of the digital divide can.
And we really have to ask ourselves, on what basis can we deny these people access to bits? Because they can't afford them? Remember, it costs you nothing to deliver copies of them.
(You could come to the conclusion we have: encourage global participation in software development by making access free, and design a license (CDDL) that stimulates diversity and the development of derived works. Solaris is free. So is OpenOffice. For those who can afford it, you can pay us for support.)
Let me make this a little easier. What if someone could pay you only a dollar for software you usually charge a hundred? Would you do it? As long as you didn't fear it being resold, of course you would. It's in your economic interest. You would have a dollar that you wouldn't otherwise have.
And it's in the world's social interest because that person is less disadvantaged, digitally speaking. They are, in fact, peers to those who could afford the hundred dollar price tag.
Both parties, creator and consumer, are better off. This is why I know there must be an economic solution. What maximizes a capitalist good also maximizes a social one.
An essential aspect of the solution is that people pay what they can afford to. There are a number of ways to get to that. One of my favorites is a kind of "subscription to everything" that was first introduced to me by Steve Ward at MIT. He originally cast this as a solution to software pricing wherein you would a pay a flat fee for all of the software you could possibly consume. Statistical sampling of the software that you actually consumed would help apportion the revenues to the software writers, much in the way that ASCAP apportions revenue for broadcasted music.
Now imagine that you extended this model to all bits. Suppose that you paid a monthly "digital tax" proportional to your income and consumed whatever your heart desired. Make copies, share freely, whatever. Statistical sampling of aggregate consumption --- it can be made anonymous --- would divide revenues among creators. In a system like this, anyone (read: everyone) can also contribute their bits to the pool, and benefit according to their popularity. As long as we are creating a Utopia, we can imagine that renumeration is somehow proportional to entropy added: you'd get very little claim on a new music playlist you assembled (the artists getting most of it), a lot of claim on a new song you just wrote and performed, and something in the middle for a remix.
The really nice aspect of this system is that copying is strongly encouraged, because the more chances someone has of consuming your bits, the better your chances are of getting some revenue from them. Advertising for demand creation is also incented. You might decide to spend money advertising in order to entice people to consume your creation.
The parts that don't work are pretty obvious. How is the subscription rate set for a person? Is it a government role? What if I choose to live my life digital-free: should I have to pay taxes at all? Finally, how do I possibly compare the consumption of a bit of software versus a bit of music or a bit of video? (It turns out that time spent consuming the content is an interesting measure.)
Again, I don't really have an answer. But I know what it's not. It's not the absolute control over a device's ability to render digital content. The answer is something (such a sampled subscription service) that makes use of the very network to solve the problem that gave rise to it in the first place. Actually, I view it all as opportunity and upside. It's about sharing and eliminating the digital divide.
If you can figure it out, you are on your way to Stockholm.