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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Crash of 2008"
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:::::Whereas none of us has hindsight, there is no reason to accept as "fact" some journalistic accounts. Since none of you is reading economists' accounts, then all you are citing is journalism. Sorry to tell you, but it is a load of **** ( as usual). My understanding is that the actual exposure to bad debt is fairly limited, and the crisis is actually more to do with structural change. It is a matter of interpretation of where blame lies.
:::::Whereas none of us has hindsight, there is no reason to accept as "fact" some journalistic accounts. Since none of you is reading economists' accounts, then all you are citing is journalism. Sorry to tell you, but it is a load of **** ( as usual). My understanding is that the actual exposure to bad debt is fairly limited, and the crisis is actually more to do with structural change. It is a matter of interpretation of where blame lies.
:::::This brings me to a second and MAJOR issue. If the fault lies primarily with subprime mortgages, then the policy conclusion is that socialistic intervention is a disaster. If the fault is primarily structural, and related to deregulation, it means that the neoliberal policies of USA, UK and others in the last two decades are a disaster. Although there is some role of mortgages in this, I see no reason to let the mistaken policies of governments off the hook. I also see that many people with extreme wealth at stake are trying this little trick, and fooling a lot of you. After all, global economics is very complex, so there is no reason why you should be able to understand it. So, as an economics editor, I ask you to desist from putting pressure on our authors to toe an American (neoliberal) line. Nick should be allowed to write an expert analysis, and also benefit from any other economists who wish to contribute. For non-experts, please assist with comprehensibility issues, but really you do not understand enough to comment on the analysis itself. [[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 20:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::This brings me to a second and MAJOR issue. If the fault lies primarily with subprime mortgages, then the policy conclusion is that socialistic intervention is a disaster. If the fault is primarily structural, and related to deregulation, it means that the neoliberal policies of USA, UK and others in the last two decades are a disaster. Although there is some role of mortgages in this, I see no reason to let the mistaken policies of governments off the hook. I also see that many people with extreme wealth at stake are trying this little trick, and fooling a lot of you. After all, global economics is very complex, so there is no reason why you should be able to understand it. So, as an economics editor, I ask you to desist from putting pressure on our authors to toe an American (neoliberal) line. Nick should be allowed to write an expert analysis, and also benefit from any other economists who wish to contribute. For non-experts, please assist with comprehensibility issues, but really you do not understand enough to comment on the analysis itself. [[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 20:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
== Recession ==
== Recession ==
Revision as of 09:09, 26 October 2008
This article, if written really well so that it is comprehensive yet comprehensible to the educated layman, could create a big boost for CZ. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 10:15, 30 September 2008 (CDT)
That is the combination that I am attempting, but I am finding it difficult. It has ocuurred to me that it would be more manageable if it embodied a rather broad account of the subprime crisis, leaving the detail for a separate article. It would be a great help if someone could tackle that article. - Nick Gardner 11:51, 30 September 2008 (CDT)
A good deal of further evidence bearing on the latter paragraphs of this article is likely to become available in the course of the next three months, so I suggest that their present content be regarded as no more than a stopgap. But I do need comments on the remainder, particularly as regards its clarity. Nick Gardner 10:19, 4 October 2008 (CDT)
- To my mind, this is looking really good. I find no problems with clarity, but we need some non-economists to express judgement on that.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 06:13, 5 October 2008 (CDT)
- 1 article title and redirects
- 2 The scope of the article
- 3 if you want my advice as a "non-expert" and apparently you do....
- 4 What a difference a day makes!
- 5 Timeline format
- 6 A couple naive questions
- 7 Drawing a line under the article
- 8 Notes on using the subpages to this article
- 9 Formatting question and a suggestion
- 10 "Recession of 2008"
- 11 Is this the end of the story?
- 12 The opening paragraph
- 13 Odd
- 14 Recession
article title and redirects
I don't think the article's title is particularly intuitive, but I won't suggest changing it. I'm too lazy to do it myself, but I think that a *ton* of redirects should be created, for instance "Financial crisis" FC of 2008, 2008 Credit crisis, CC of 2008, etc. etc. Hayford Peirce 11:54, 5 October 2008 (CDT)
- Yes, the title is the least good thing about this article! Probably it would be better as Financial crisis of 2008, for popular consumption (the public was completely unaware of it before 2008). Anyway, I leave the choice of title to its main author. Moving these things is a big pain, too :-( Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:39, 5 October 2008 (CDT)
- It was a temporary expedient, and I agree that it will have to be changed, but I would suggest that it is too soon to do so. I am not confident that the measures so far proposed will put an end to the crisis, so I think we should at least wait until it is clear whether it is going to spill over into 2009. In the meantime redirects as suggested by Hayford seem a good idea. Any volunteers? - Nick Gardner 15:39, 5 October 2008 (CDT)
- I think that if the title had 2008 in it somewhere that would suffice to lead people to it no matter how many years it lasts or when it started. Sort of like "Crash of '29" could easily be stretched to account for the next 10 years. But, of course, there's no sense in making a lot of redirects right now unless we know what the final title is. (Although I *guess* redirects are *supposed* to be changed when articles are Moved....) Hayford Peirce 17:00, 5 October 2008 (CDT).
- I have been waiting for a colloquial term for the crisis to emerge. I think it now has. I should like to change the title to "Crash of 2008". If that is agreed, I should be grateful if someone could attend to the mechanics of the change. (I propose also to set up and develop a matching "Crash of 1929" page). Nick Gardner 08:49, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks to whoever it was. The change is now done. Nick Gardner 09:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- Done (with some effort!). Martin Baldwin-Edwards 10:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
The scope of the article
I think the article as it stands "fills in all the boxes" but needs some immediate tidying-up followed by possibly a great deal of updating. I should be grateful for help with all of that, but what I need most of all is advice on the scope of the article. There is an immense amount of information available which I have not included for fear of overburdening our readers. Should I have gone into more detail or should I have left out more of it? Nick Gardner 11:24, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
- If you'll forgive me, I felt that it not fleshed out. It might be that you're presuming knowledge and therefore giving a sketch of the crisis, assuming that our brains can fill in the blanks. Mine can't. If you had to totally explain to a teenager what was happening, what would you say? So I think my answer to your question is that it needs more, but more simply stated. Maybe a tutorial is needed here. Aleta Curry 21:30, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
Many thanks Aleta. I have shifted the definitions to the glossary subpage that you set up (I had no idea that there could be such a thing as a glossary subpage. How can one find out about such things?) I will try to do some fleshing out as soon as I can spare the time - which is mostly absorbed in trying to keep with developments. I have done what I can with the Related Articles subpage, but the article has a meagre parentage and only two offsprings. I should explain that I have no background in modern financial matters, and those that have have so far been silent. Until I started on this article, the subject was probably as confusing to me as it is to you. I am afraid there is little prospect of a tutorials subpage unless a modern financial economist comes forward Nick Gardner 03:06, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- afterthought: some examples of statements that you find obscure would be most helpful. Nick Gardner 03:43, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
if you want my advice as a "non-expert" and apparently you do....
The first thing I'd do would be to scrap the introductory paragraph 100%. No one in a general audience is going to read beyond the first 15 words or so. This sort of lede may be fine for the academic world but outside of that it's not going to fly.
I'm a writer: you don't *tell* the readers what you're going to write -- you go ahead and write it!
When the first paragraph disappears, I'll actually start reading the article and maybe offer some more (quite possibly unwanted advice).... Hayford Peirce 20:18, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
- Okay, Hayford, you're right, but guess which one of the seven dwarves you're reminding me of? (and why is this blithering thing telling me that 'dwarves' is wrong? Isn't dwarves the plural of dwarf?) So, anyway, Nick, I chopped out the first bit and started my own outline. I don't expect that to stand, I'm just trying to sketch out some of the things I think are needed. Hope I'm being helpful. Aleta Curry 21:35, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
- I forgot this bit: I think you need to move the Glossary to its own separate subpage. Related articles is pretty vital here and I think you need to show the relationship between parent topics, related topics and subtopics on it.
- Aleta Curry 21:46, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
- Actually, they are "dwarfs" :-) Anyway, I think it is good that we have some collaboration on important articles -- and if there are any inaccuracies resulting from non-expert changes, some expert can correct these. We really do need to make this article accessible to as many people as possible. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 22:04, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
- I went and looked it up and it's 'dwarfs' or 'dwarves'. I'm not mad, after all. Aleta Curry 23:57, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
- Why are we having dwarves in an economic article? What happened to the Gnomes of Zurich? Howard C. Berkowitz 00:04, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- Do you mean the "Dwarfs of Canberra", Howard? The Gnomes are all bankrupt, now. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 05:09, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- Ugh! Am I ever gonna live this one down? Aleta Curry 21:59, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- Do you mean the "Dwarfs of Canberra", Howard? The Gnomes are all bankrupt, now. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 05:09, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- Why are we having dwarves in an economic article? What happened to the Gnomes of Zurich? Howard C. Berkowitz 00:04, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- Well, let's see, Aleta. It couldn't possibly be Grouchy, because that is totally alien to my personality. Dopey is possible, I suppose, but in that case I probably wouldn't be here at CZ in the first place. Sleepy? That's sure true a lot of the time! I forget the other four, but was one of them called "He Who Drinks Too Many Martinis and/or Other Spirituous Liquors While On-line"? Hayford Peirce 22:13, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
- Yeah--don't you remember "Tipsy"??? hahahahahahahahahahahahaha And by the way, it was Grumpy Oh, what the hey--in deference to your drink-mixing abilities, I'll just call you "Doc"! Aleta Curry 23:57, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
- Well, let's see, Aleta. It couldn't possibly be Grouchy, because that is totally alien to my personality. Dopey is possible, I suppose, but in that case I probably wouldn't be here at CZ in the first place. Sleepy? That's sure true a lot of the time! I forget the other four, but was one of them called "He Who Drinks Too Many Martinis and/or Other Spirituous Liquors While On-line"? Hayford Peirce 22:13, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
- Thank you all for your help. In response I have abbreviated the opening statement and removed the background paragraph, and I am working on a brief definitional statement under the heading of "the crisis". Unfortunately the timeline also demands attention, so it may be delayed. Nick Gardner 02:44, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- I have just finished the first round of the planned tidying-up of the text. I am now hoping for specific examples of lack of clarity from our "educated laymen", and specific examples of excessive glibness from our "finance nerds". Nick Gardner 06:46, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- Hayford - Not that it matters - and I do not wish to give offence by altering your alterations - but I think you might take my word for it that "houseowners", not "homeowners", is colloquial in British English, and "organisations" is the correct spelling over here. We're funny that way! Nick Gardner 13:38, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- Sorry, I hadn't checked to see in which English the article was being written. I see now that it's BE -- I'll change things back. Hayford Peirce 13:47, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- I think that I disagree with removing the verb "promises" from the intro. The indications are, at this time, that the course of the crisis will be very severe: this is not a prediction, but a statement of how the situation looks now. Replacing this with "may" seems to me to be just avoiding the issue, implying a random outcome. I think that the structural indications are so serious, that we can reasonably expect a global depression -- even if it turns out to be not quite as bad as the 1930s. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 14:14, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- Sorry, I hadn't checked to see in which English the article was being written. I see now that it's BE -- I'll change things back. Hayford Peirce 13:47, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- I strongly disagree. The original statement "promises", ie, "just about guarantees" that things will be as bad as the Great Depression -- which lasted, you will recall, at least in the States, until the start of WWII! (When the wartime economy ended it.) That's what, 10, 11, 12 years, however you want to count it. CZ could have mud all over its face if it "promises" that we are NOW in the start of a 12-year Second Great Depression. Or so I feel. Hayford Peirce 14:32, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- Isn't there some confusion here between the 1929 financial crisis and the more persistent depression that followed it? Nick Gardner 14:54, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- I suppose that's possible. I have just reread the original sentence, "The current financial crisis promises to be as severe as the one that started in 1929." By using the word "start", that seems to me to mean the entire Great Depression. If you didn't mean that, then why don't we say, as a compromise, "The current financial crisis is already nearly as severe as that of 1929, which was the beginning of the Great Depression." On page one of the NYT Business section today, in the second paragraph of the article called "Hedge Fund Finds Itself On Defense", by Louise Story, the first sentence is: "But it can be tough for a boy wonder to grow up -- particularly in the midst of the gravest financial crisis since the Depression." So I'm not disputing that it's grave: I'm just wondering about the precise nuances that should be struck in the lede. Hayford Peirce 15:32, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- How about "The current financial crisis promises to be nearly as severe as that of 1929, which was the forerunner of the Great Depression." ? Nick Gardner 15:58, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- That would be perfect, I think. Do you want to call it the Crash of '29? Hayford Peirce 16:44, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
- How about "The current financial crisis promises to be nearly as severe as that of 1929, which was the forerunner of the Great Depression." ? Nick Gardner 15:58, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
Yes, it is a good idea to make a clear distinction between predicting the severity of the financial crisis (which is almost upon us) and the duration of any subsequent depression. The 1930s Great Depression was largely extended by poor policy, which we hope will not happen now; but the severity of the financial crisis is comparable with that of 1929. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 19:10, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
Since we all seem to be agreed, I have altered the text accordingly. Nick Gardner 01:28, 8 October 2008 (CDT)
- Since then the opening paragraph has been growing like Topsy, and seems to have lost most of its punch. Should we not call a halt to its growth, and perhaps dispense with some of its existing verbiage? Nick Gardner 10:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well, it probably shouldn't get any *longer*, but on the other hand I don't think we want to fall into the WP abyss of having every article begin with a one or two sentence summary of stunning simplemindedness. I'd rather see our opening too long rather than too short. Hayford Peirce 15:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
What a difference a day makes!
Wow! I can understand the opening of this, now! So I guess it takes a girl to BE BOLD? (snicker, snicker). Well done, lads! Aleta Curry 21:57, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
Timeline format
The timeline would best be formatted using Robert King's timeline tool, no? --Larry Sanger 14:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
A couple naive questions
Real estate prices skyrocketed through the roof around the world in the 2000s. There seems to have been real estate "speculation" going on everywhere. Is there a chance that the situation in the U.S. is merely the catalyst for exploding a financial situation that was risky everywhere? Is anybody saying that? I don't know, that's why I ask.
Everybody talks about the cause of the problem being deregulation, or lack of regulation. But isn't this an indirect cause at best? The direct cause is what the lack of regulation permitted to happen, namely, the real estate price bubble created by real estate speculation, based on ultra-low interest rates and zero-down loans. And if Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--government-created entities--and the U.S. federal government actually permitted and encouraged that such loans be made, then isn't the problem not lack of regulation, but instead the wrong kind of regulation? Again, is anybody saying that?
It seems to me that the usual analysis of these events as I casually read in news reports is misleading and simple-minded. (So what else is new?) I hope we can do better--of course, without doing any "original research." --Larry Sanger 15:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
YOu are asking difficult questions, Larry. My answers are as follows: In some countries, deregulation proceeded at a very high rate from the early 1980s. The degree of risk in banking activities increased most in those countries where the dogma of free markets had the most political support -- primarily the USA and UK. The reduced level of regulation was supposed (according to proponents of deregulation) to increase economic growth without disproportionate risk, since private sector banks are managed by educated and knowledgeable people who would not want to risk their money any more (and arguably less) than governments would risk public money.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that we are structurally dependent on banks, so we cannot allow too many of them to collapse. Therefore, some commentators (even from the banking sector) argue that banks believed that the risky activities undertaken by them would in reality be underwritten by governments -- simply because we need banks in the capitalist system. If this is true, then the effect of deregulation was asymmetrical: that is to say, that we removed our controls over banks, but were unable to remove our obligations to banks. In this scenario, deregulation is the primary cause of the problem.
Of course, it is literally the case that nothing was completely deregulated and more accurately was re-regulated: the term deregulation indicates the level of control by the state being reduced, in line with neoliberal political ideology.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
The question which the article ought to clarify is this: if deregulation per se (and not different kinds of regulation) had anything to do with the crisis, the lack of exactly what kind of regulation is to blame? What is the mechanism of failure? --Larry Sanger 16:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'll leave it to Nick, but my immediate answer would be bank reserves to lending ratios. On top of that, all sorts of other risky stratregies emerged over the last decades to recycle money -- which in previous years would have been prohibited. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 16:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yes there was house price inflation in other countries, in many cases steeper than in the US. I have tried to indicate what seems to have set things off on the US in the article (under construction) on the subprime mortgages crisis. For the rest of the world, the subprime crisis was merely the shock that toppled an extemely unstable system. I believe that Goodhart was right in suggesting that any serious shock would have done it. Perhaps you are right in suggesting that the bursting of some other country's housing bubble could have set it off. But the US housing market was, of course, the biggest...
- Deregulation, in my opinion, was not the cause but rather a necessary condition for the creation of all those clever financial instruments, as well as placing limitations upon the ability of central banks to do something about their misuse. It is hard to say whether it would have happened under the previous regulatory system, but I guess it would not.
- To say that any particular thing was the cause is indeed simple-minded. In so complex a situation, it is a logical error to speak of causes rather than contributory factors. It is the relative importance of the different factors that will need original research. The rest is not all that obscure. Nick Gardner 16:16, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- Identifying what was wrong with the regulatory system and what is needed to put it right is indeed difficult - and certainly far beyond me. World experts have devoted tens of thousands of words to that question [1] without producing straightforward answers. It might take decades! Nick Gardner 16:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
A strange thing I seem to be seeing here in Chicago is that amidst all the predictions of doom and gloom, Help Wanted signs are everywhere, and at my current employer we are so busy I can hardly get a day off. I'm not sure what wages are being offered by these prospective employers, but...
I guess I'm failing to be as pessimistic as perhaps I should, but it looks to me as if the folks who are becoming dissappointed with the economy at this time have the common complaint that their investments are not yielding as much gain as they had hoped. Now, I don't want to minimize the importance of someone's retirement fund losing "money", but to me this seems not so different from their homes "value" declining.
That said, here are my "naive questions":
- Isn't the real value of a house that it is a home? Does anyone really forsee millions of working-class families living on the streets while millions of houses sit empty for lack of someone who can pay some astronomical price for them? When home "values" and "prices" once again come into alignment won't people simply start buying them again?
- Does someone who sought to make substantial profit by simply buying and reselling (as opposed to say, building or even buying and maintaining for commercial purposes) really deserve to be the one handsomely rewarded?
- Doesn't it seem as if things have become a little confused recently? How many homes will the typical person sell this year? If a particular person is _not_ going to sell their home, won't a reduction in the appraised value of the property basically just mean lower property taxes typically?
- Is it really true that the sky is falling?
--David Yamakuchi 17:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
David: I am not putting myself forward as the man who has all the answers. I have my own opinions on these matters, but in drafting the article I was merely acting as a reporter. I am very willing to discuss the content of the article here, but if you want to debate broader issues with me, it might be better to do it somewhere else. Perhaps on my talk page [2]? Or by email? What do you think? Nick Gardner 20:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Drawing a line under the article
Because it - seems to me - it would be a pity to allow this article to ramble on and on in the style of Wikipedia, I suggest that we consider "drawing a line" under the present text and continuing the story elsewhere - including the article on banking failures and rescues, but also perhaps a new article on the economic fallout. This does not, of course, exclude necessary work to correct, sharpen and clarify the existing text. Nick Gardner 22:12, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- That sounds like a pretty good suggestion to me. Hayford Peirce 23:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Notes on using the subpages to this article
I gotta say that I really don't like this sort of Aside to the Reader sitting so uncompromisingly in the text. I realize that it contains useful information, but I wonder if there isn't a less obtrusive way of getting it across? Hayford Peirce 23:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Encouraged by that remark, I have made a change that I had been itching to make! Nick Gardner 05:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Formatting question and a suggestion
Hi Nick, I think you're using the wrong formatting in at least two instances, in which you have, I guess, used blockquote formatting to indent two long summaries that you have written. My understanding of the matter is that blockquotes are only supposed to used for actual *quotations*, such as the Paul Krugman quote that I inserted into the lede. To use them elsewhere causes needless confusion for the reader -- he thinks that he is getting a quotation but is actually getting normal text. Why not simply remove the blockquotes and continue the text in normal fashion, as is the case in other CZ articles? Hayford Peirce 23:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't know about "blockquotes" and I have not used them. I indented the two passages because I thought it important to distinguish other people's statements from statements made on behalf of CZ. But if that is not permissible because it breaks a CZ rule, I should be content for you to make the necessary corrections. Nick Gardner 06:04, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Okie, I removed the indent formatting. Hayford Peirce 15:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
"Recession of 2008"
I think we need to continue this melancholy story in a new article. I have proposed the title "Recession of 2008" with the intention of changing it when a colloquial term emerges. Nick Gardner 07:32, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think any other term will emerge, unless, sigh, it turns out to be The Great Depression of 2008. I wonder, though, if in speaking at least of the United States, you shouldn't wait until there is an officially declared recession. I think there are standard specs for defining one.... Although I suppose that if England, Europe, etc., declared themselves to be in a recession, that would be enough. Hayford Peirce 15:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Economists don't need empty-headed politicians to tell them when there is a recession. I would recomment that some academic reference be provided for any sceptics. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- The San Francisco Fed chairman thinks we are already there [3]. Will that do? Nick Gardner 16:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Don't forget the old quip that goes something like: "Economists have predicted nine of the last three recessions." Hayford Peirce 16:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Do you want to bet she's wrong? I'll give you good odds. Nick Gardner 20:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- I just heard that Germany predicts zero growth for 2009: this is officially a recession for the world. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Do you want to bet she's wrong? I'll give you good odds. Nick Gardner 20:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- The definition is not simple [4] Nick Gardner 14:27, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- The UK Q3 growth rate was negative. Unless it goes positive in Q4, we shall be technically in a recession. That would make an honest man of me! Nick Gardner 18:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- At least from the perspective of the U.S. of A., here's part of today's Business Section column by Floyd Norris:
- "The Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago maintains an index, called the National Activity Index, which in the past has nearly always signaled the beginning of a recession when it fell to a certain level, shown as negative 0.7 in the accompanying chart. It hit that level last December, and has stayed there since.
- "This week, the Fed released the reading for September, which was the worst for a single month since 1982 and a sign that the recession is deepening....
- "And yet it was not until last month that many economists began to think a recession was likely, and many believe it began in the third quarter of this year, rather than many months earlier....
- "A major reason for that delayed acceptance of the downturn was that the government initially reported the economy grew at an annual rate of more than 3 percent in the second quarter. That has been revised down to 2.8 percent, and may yet be revised lower some months from now. In any case, other factors are considered by the National Bureau of Economic Research, which makes the final decision. In the last two recessions, the downturn was over, or almost over, when the bureau finally decided it had begun.
Is this the end of the story?
I am inclined to believe that this story is now complete, and that we can soon start to consider its submission for approval. To that end, I urge all who are interested to subject it to critical scrutiny. Nick Gardner 20:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
The opening paragraph
- It occurred to me that yesterday's description of the crisis by Alan Greenspan would be a good replacement for the rather feeble "is very severe" in the existing paragraph. Having inserted Greenspan's aphorism, I realised that it made the comparison with 1929 redundant, so I deleted it. (I had previously discovered that the 1929 crash had very little in common with the present crisis, in view of which the implied comparison of what follows with the Great Depression seemed unnecessary and unfortunate). Then I realised that what had been the topical flavour of the paragraph back in September no longer sounded right, so I did some more redrafting with a view to restoring its topicality and economising on its subordinate clauses.
- Any comments? Nick Gardner 08:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- I think that's a good rewrite. I've done a little tweaking to smooth it out. Hayford Peirce 15:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
In this long article, not a single mention of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--the failures of which probably have the best claim to being the catalyst of the crash. --Larry Sanger 15:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- easy to correct, but the question is where to put it -- in the lede paragraph? If so, might that not be a little too much "inside baseball"? How many people outside the USofA have ever even heard of them? But a good point to bring up, of course. Hayford Peirce 16:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
You may be right, Larry, but my research seems to indicate that news of Fannie Mae's problems came out after that of Bear Stearns' - although there had been rumours (denied by Fannie Mae) that came out a little earlier [5]. Commentators at the time seemed to believe that it was the Paribas statement the triggered the credit crunch. It is difficult, of course, to compare the serious damage done to mortgage-lenders by suspected defaults, and the wider range of damage done by the credit crunch - and I may have got the balance wrong. As things stand, I agree that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are mentioned only on the subpages. I will consider putting a reference to them in the main article. Nick Gardner 16:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- Speaking from outside the USofA: I got sick and tired of Fannie and Freddie being on the news day in day out.--Paul Wormer 16:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- Who knew, hehe? Hayford Peirce 16:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- They sound to Europeans like a middle-aged married couple going through a divorce, rather than serious banking institutions... Although their "misfortunes" are seen by many as central to the crash, I doubt that history will agree. It is also irrational to think that the failings of two national lending institutions could bring down global finance on their own; it is questionable whether they are worth more than a footnote in this article. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 17:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- I followed the news about their failure and bailout closely, and indeed it seemed to be very basic conventional wisdom that their failure and nationalization was one of the flashpoints of the broader market reaction to the mortgage finance crisis. Obviously the failure of these two (albeit incredibly powerful and huge) institutions isn't enough to "bring down global finance on their own," but that isn't the claim. What the article should say is, at least, what almost everyone agreed upon: their failure and nationalization got people in derivatives and then the broader market very very worried. This is why I use phrases like "catalyst" and "flashpoint," and that is a fact that I doubt history will revise. That is why, clearly, they need not just a footnote, but a paragraph or a whole section in this article. --Larry Sanger 20:07, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- While I'm not sure they are "central to the crash", I do they they are more than a footnote. The crash seems to have a number of components: (i) bubbles in the US/UK/Spanish housing market, associated with over-ambitious lending practises in at least the US, and a poor job by the credit rating organizations, etc; (ii) overuse of leverage by many financial institutions, many in the US but also elsewhere; (iii) growth of complex financial instruments (principally but not entirely mortgage-backed seecurities) which are hard to value and assign risk to; (iv) a giant, opaque and unregulated market in various financial insurance instruments (the credit-default swaps) - and that's just off to top of my head. But the US housing bubble - of which FNMA/Freddie-Mac are a big part - is definitely a big part of the problem, because those securities were part of many of the other problems, e.g. ii) and iii).
- I don't think there's be any single major 'flash point' that caused it all; rather, it's like an unstable slope, where when things finally get too steep, it only takes one pebble to start the whole thing cascading down; it starts small, and just grows and grows. Yeah, some incremental additions may be bigger than others, but they are just pieces of a bigger thing. J. Noel Chiappa 21:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- Conventional wisdom (of the 1980s and 90s) is what got us into this mess in the first place, so I am not convinced by that argument in the slightest. The principal issue is the failure of banks to self-regulate, which neoliberal politicians assured everyone was completely safe when recklessly deregulating the entire sector. The importance of specific failures, such as Freddie and Fannie, is probably confined to their greater vulnerability: to focus upon them is misleading and inappropriate. That almost everyone does, shows how incompetent the commentators are. Thus, a footnote is clearly needed: more can be justified, but it should be minimal to avoid overstating the importance of them. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Nope, that won't fly, Martin. Obviously, the burden of proof rests on he who wants to overthrow the conventional wisdom. Your argument appears to be that this financial collapse is so complete that it utterly overturns everything--black is white, night is day, conventional wisdom deserves only little attention. If you have something more substantive to say about Freddie and Fannie, as opposed to vague dismissals, that would be interesting.
- Frankly, I just don't understand what the resistance would be. The conventional wisdom is well supported and is not irrational in the slightest. Freddie and Fannie were specifically ordered by Congress to buy up risky mortgages and make it easier for lower-income people to get into housing...that was the culture of ownership stuff Bush touted throughout his first term, but definitely supported, even driven, by the Democrats. In the U.S., Freddie and Fannie served as a sort of informal insurance company in the case of bad loans...they absorbed all sorts of risky debt. I had a student loan that was bought up by Fannie Mae--well, not that it was risky debt. ;-) This made it possible for lenders to be a little looser with their money (which is to say, with their depositors' and investors' money). That no doubt had something to do with the rise of subprime lending, etc. When the backers of this whole house of cards folded, everybody knew the game was up.
- I agree that there might not have been a single flash point, but there was definitely a few highlights that more or less brought everything to a head. --Larry Sanger 02:24, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Let's get down to specifics in terms of the article. Fannie and Freddie are a key and leading part of the thing that most of the article tries to explain. I.e., when we refer to the Crash of 2008, we aren't referring just to the crash of stock markets or housing prices, but to everything related to that, and especially to the mortgage business. So where the discussion of Fannie and Freddie belongs, obviously, is Crash of 2008#The crisis, which is desperately in need of development: there, we should describe exactly of what the crash of 2008 has consisted of, with Fannie and Freddie, bank failures, stock market crash, etc. Odd we don't have all that business when that is the Crash of 2008 itself, y'know... --Larry Sanger 02:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I think it's important to distinguish between the crash (by which I mean the international banking panic which created the credit crunch) from the subprime mortgages crisis (which was something that occurred in a relatively small part of the American market). I still believe that it was the discovery of the threat that mortgage-related assets posed to the survival of Bear Stearns that prompted banks all over the world to look at their assets, discover that a lot of them were based on subprime mortgages that might be worth a lot less than they thought - and panic. It does not seem plausible to suppose that troubles at Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac could produce that reaction - even setting aside the fact that Fannie Mae was denying they had a problem at the time of the Bear Stearns crash. Undoubtedly, the subprime crisis triggered the crash, and undoubtedly Fanny and Freddy played a big part in that crisis, but I think it would be misleading to suggest - even obliquely - that it would not have happened but for them.
- Getting down to specifics, I believe that the place to describe the part that they played is the article on subprime mortgages crisis. They were referred to there, but only as government sponsored agencies. I have spelled their names out there and added a sentence about their collapse. Nick Gardner 09:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I agree completely, Nick. Larry is pushing the line (which I have noticed before, in other articles) that journalistic accounts are so important that they take priority over (ot at least take equal place with) expert analysis: clearly that is a non-starter. The only point that might arise from the journalistic coverage, is to set people (like Larry) right in the CZ article about what is incidental and what is substantial or structural in the global crisis. This can be done in a footnote stating that the role of the subprime collapse (esp. Fannie and Freddie) seemed central to many US commentators, but was neither the cause of the Crash nor a necessary catalyst. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 10:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I basically agree with your analysis, Nick, but have only one comment. As I (imperfectly) understand things, FNMA/FHLMC played a major role in creating those toxic mortgage securities that other banks held, by buying those subprime home loans from the originators, and reselling them on (often packaged up into mortgage bonds directly), and adding a perceived US Govt guarantee in the process. In addition, of course, without FNMA/FHLMC buying those loans from the originators, the capital of the originators wouldn't have been replenished, to allow them to make more subprime loans. So while the losses incurred by those who held FNMA/FHLMC stock may not in and of themselves have been a big hit, the sub-prime mortgages that passed through FNMA/FHLMC, and the securities based on them (and I don't know to what degree FNMA/FHLMC 'guaranteed' any of those bonds) were a big factor. Does this sound correct? J. Noel Chiappa 13:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I am not at all sure about the degree to which they were responsible - it may not be fully known until the subject has been trawled over by committees of enquiry empowered to cross-examine the staff of the banks that were involved. But from what I have read, I guess that it is probably right to describe their role as "major" - but not, I would suppose, "majority". Nick Gardner 14:45, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Everything I've read so far bears out Noel's analysis -- at least from today's perspective. Since none of us are historians writing with perfect hindsight from 50 years in the future, I do think that something along the lines of what Noel has written should go somewhere into the article. It may be that in the *long* run, the Frannie-Fred stuff will be as meaningless to the reader as similar detail about specific bank failures/takeovers/problems in 1930 and 1931 would be to the average reader of 2008. But the article can be rewritten to reflect this as the decades go by.... Hayford Peirce 17:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Whereas none of us has hindsight, there is no reason to accept as "fact" some journalistic accounts. Since none of you is reading economists' accounts, then all you are citing is journalism. Sorry to tell you, but it is a load of **** ( as usual). My understanding is that the actual exposure to bad debt is fairly limited, and the crisis is actually more to do with structural change. It is a matter of interpretation of where blame lies.
- This brings me to a second and MAJOR issue. If the fault lies primarily with subprime mortgages, then the policy conclusion is that socialistic intervention is a disaster. If the fault is primarily structural, and related to deregulation, it means that the neoliberal policies of USA, UK and others in the last two decades are a disaster. Although there is some role of mortgages in this, I see no reason to let the mistaken policies of governments off the hook. I also see that many people with extreme wealth at stake are trying this little trick, and fooling a lot of you. After all, global economics is very complex, so there is no reason why you should be able to understand it. So, as an economics editor, I ask you to desist from putting pressure on our authors to toe an American (neoliberal) line. Nick should be allowed to write an expert analysis, and also benefit from any other economists who wish to contribute. For non-experts, please assist with comprehensibility issues, but really you do not understand enough to comment on the analysis itself. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 20:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- When trying to restore a sense of proportion in my mind about all this, it occurred to me that Paul Krugman's summary captures its essence. The trigger was, as he said, the sudden discovery of poisonous assets on the balance sheets of banks all over the world - and the crash was what followed. All the rest is secondary. How they became poisonous is not hard to understand. The details of how they got there are not - but understanding them is like the pattern on a picture frame - interesting but inessential. And if Paul Krugman finds them "fiendishly complex", I shan't be mortified if I never get to understand them. I shall go on trying, and I will try to summarise my findings in the subprime mortgages article, but I am against putting them in this article. The search for a single cause for the crash is bound to be fruitless, but as Martin suggests, the question of how the banks were allowed to put themselves in a position to inflict such damage is the principal one that has to be tackled if we are to avoid a repetition.
Just read the opening again after a hiatus and it makes good sense to the layman.
Could one of you define 'recession' and add it to the glossary? I can't.
That reminds me--there's no recession article--did we ever settle it as to whether or not the wiki pointed to a definition if there is no full article yet?
Aleta Curry 03:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Point taken. I will do both a definition and a very brief article. Nick Gardner 06:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
PS: See Recession (economics) - Nick Gardner 10:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Article with Definition
- Developed Articles
- Advanced Articles
- Nonstub Articles
- Internal Articles
- Economics Developed Articles
- Economics Advanced Articles
- Economics Nonstub Articles
- Economics Internal Articles
- Politics Developed Articles
- Politics Advanced Articles
- Politics Nonstub Articles
- Politics Internal Articles
- History Developed Articles
- History Advanced Articles
- History Nonstub Articles
- History Internal Articles


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Shrimp in a Spicy, Ginger, Garlic Marinade
Total Time
Prep 15 mins
Cook 5 mins
No one will Whine and all will skip the Cheese when you smell these cooking! Open a bottle of sweet plum wine sip and enjoy with these tasty spicy morsels for a nice start to any meal. 2 large shrimp will appease your appetite till your main meal is ready. Made for http://www.recipezaar.com/bb/viewtopic.zsp?t=332765&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 ZWT 6 the Wild Card Challenge http://www.recipezaar.com/bb/viewtopic.zsp?t=330044 These are spicy you may enjoy white rice with it.
Ingredients Nutrition
- 1 lb extra large shrimp, peeled and deveined
- 1⁄4 teaspoon red chili pepper flakes
- 1 tablespoon minced fresh garlic
- 1 tablespoon sliced scallion
- 2 teaspoons minced ginger
- 1 lime, juice
- 1 tablespoon peanut oil
- 1⁄2 teaspoon hot sesame oil (if you like it hot) or 1⁄2 teaspoon sesame oil
- 1⁄4 teaspoon black pepper
- 1 tablespoon fresh Thai basil or 1 tablespoon fresh cilantro, minced
- 1 tablespoon packed brown sugar
- 1 teaspoon soy sauce
- Combine all but the shrimp in a glass bowl with lid. Add shrimp toss to coat and marinade for 20 minutes.
- Remove shrimp from marinade and discard marinade.
- To grill:.
- Heat grill to high. Place shrimp soaked wooden skewers or metal skewers on a clean well oil grates cooking to mark on all sides.
- or.
- Stir fry:.
- I in a hot wok coated with oil for 3-4 minutes till pink. Do not over cook.
- Garnish with fresh herbs and scallions.
- Serve as an appetizer or over rice for a meal.
Most Helpful
its amazing marinade, first time i tried shrimp to cook and as a snacks all loved this . Awesome recipe, thanks a lot.
My husband was "starving" so I looked on my phone for a quick recipe to satisfy this picky eater... I found this one and crossed my fingers. He says he doesn't like ginger, lime juice, sesame oil, or soy sauce, so I didn't tell him what was in the marinade LOL... I added some cayenne because I didn't have hot oil, and I added a splash of the beer he was drinkin. Quote: "And that is a recipe we ARE SAVING. One of the best shrimp meals I have ever had!" Thanks for proving him wrong again LOL!!!!
Very good! Will add a tad bit more chilies next time.


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When University Interscholastic League officials announced Farwell High School debate students Hunter Hall and Savanna Barksdale had won the Class 1A state championship, Hall couldn't contain his emotions.
"I was kind of in awe for a second, and then I had tears of joy, and I was so excited it was crazy. ... It was probably one of the best experiences of my life," said Hall, 16.
Hall and Barksdale, 15, sophomores at Farwell High School, won the cross-examination category March 13 at the state Capitol in Austin.
The state tournament was the eighth of a season in which they went undefeated, said Angela Teachout, a Farwell High School English teacher, UIL coordinator and Hall's mother.
However, with another round of state funding cuts set to hit Texas schools again this summer, some students might not have the chance to compete in debate competitions or other extracurricular activities.
The Texas Legislature passed a $4-billion cut to public education during last year's special session for the 2011-12 and 2012-13 school years.
Jana Riggins, UIL speech and debate director, said she has spoken with some schools that have reduced the number of academic tournaments their students attend and how many students they can take to tournaments.
"That is tragic in a lot of ways because the more you compete, the higher level of competition you get to," Riggins said.
Riggins said 161 teams from across the state competed in Class 1A district tournaments this year. She said there could be more teams throughout the state, but UIL contest rules allow coaches to enter a maximum of three teams.
She said the UIL Academics programs are designed to supplement and enhance the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills curriculum students learn in class during the school day.
"When you can take a child out of the classroom with that normal routine and take that curriculum into the heightened competitive arena, then we believe that energy flows back into the classroom and makes that classroom much more meaningful," Riggins said.
She also said there is no requirement for schools to have UIL programs.
Texas Association of School Business Officials Executive Director Gwen Santiago said there is no central database regarding projected budget cuts that school districts might be planning for the 2012-13 school year. She said she has received information from some districts that plan to reduce coaches' stipends for athletics, as well as music or theater instructors.
She said districts also have reduced or eliminated funding for some subvarsity and middle school extracurricular programs such as tennis or soccer.
Santiago said school districts are working with an average of $600 less per student this year than they did in the 2010-11 school year. That's about $13,200 for a classroom of 22 students, she said.
Teachout said it costs about $25,000 to run a successful UIL Academics program at the high school level.
Santiago said she expects a fight this summer in many districts about what programs in a school get cut.
"There will be those who say, 'Don't cut the instructional program,' and you will have others who say 'Well that's not the only thing there is. The arts are important and the team sports are important,'" Santiago said.
The Farwell High debate students spent the entire school year learning about space programs to prepare for their cross-examination competitions, which all focused on that topic this year, Teachout said.
Barksdale said the debate program has helped her develop confidence, a work ethic and research skills.
"My grades definitely wouldn't be where they are if my high school didn't have a debate team," she said. "I would definitely have low self-esteem. I wouldn't be able to walk into a room and have the presence to have my head held high like I do now because I know that I can handle anything anybody throws at me."
Teachout has taught at Farwell High and run the UIL Academics program at the school since 2004. She said about 35 to 40 of the school's approximately 120 students participate in UIL Academics programs such as debate, accounting and journalism.
"I think UIL Academics is a good bridge for some students in finding a career," Teachout said. "If it's not, it teaches them to compete and how to work for something that they want."
Still, Santiago said the current financial situation for Texas schools is probably the worst she has seen in her 30 years in education.
Part of the problem is school districts were accustomed to having at least as much money per student as they had the previous year up until the 2011-12 school year, Santiago said.
She said not every district will have additional cuts for the next school year, but many will need to decide how to balance their budgets with less money.
"I think you're going to see communities where they're facing big budget cuts again really struggling with what they can do that will hurt their school district the least," she said. "Nobody really knows the answer to that question."


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SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — The San Francisco Giants have recalled catcher Hector Sanchez from Triple-A Fresno and designated Guillermo Quiroz for assignment to clear space on the roster.
Sanchez was in the starting lineup to catch Tim Lincecum in Thursday's game against the Milwaukee Brewers. Buster Posey was given the day off.
Sanchez was placed on the disabled list with a strained right shoulder on July 9. He batted .231 with three RBIs in 26 games for the Giants earlier this season.
Quiroz hit .186 with one home run and six RBIs in 43 games.


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Subaru IMBA Trail Care Crews
Posted: October 1, 2011 at 10:41:06 PM
In Subaru IMBA Trail Care Crews | BLM | Idaho | beginner trail | lake city trail builders association | coeur d'alene
Building true beginner trails is harder than building any other kind of trail. Steve and I are intermediate/advanced-level mountain bikers, so naturally, we love building trails that we would love to ride. But we also like getting new riders into... Read More / Post Comments
Posted: September 26, 2011 at 12:54:57 PM
In Subaru IMBA Trail Care Crews | WI | KORC | River Falls | Midwest riding
I had the pleasure of shadowing Jake and Jenny of the Trail Care Crew this weekend in River Falls, WI. I have been in touch with KORC for a while but have not had the chance to ride the trails in River Falls. I was super stoked on the trails, they... Read More / Post Comments
Posted: September 26, 2011 at 12:16:40 PM
In Subaru IMBA Trail Care Crews | WORBA | KORC | Kinnickinnic Off-Road Cyclists | City of River Falls | River Falls | Whitetail Ridge
Whitetail Ridge in River Falls, Wisconsin – for a time it was unused city land, slated for future industrial development. The local cross country running coach put in a little bit of running trail. After a city study concluded most of the land was... Read More / Post Comments


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The Andrew W. Mellon Foundation has awarded Sarah Lawrence College a $3 million grant to support the building of the College's endowment while simultaneously providing immediate budgetary relief. The grant was awarded on the basis of a 3:1 match; $9 million has been raised by the College.
The successful proposal creates a dedicated fund that addresses two of the College's highest priorities: building the endowment and attracting and retaining talented and committed faculty. The fund is unusual in that it will spin off endowed chairs or program directorships, rather than be subject to standard use of endowment income for operations. All earnings on the fund, referred to as the "Mellon Core," will be reinvested until the "Core" has a sufficient principal balance to fund the first endowed chair -- $1.5 million – in 2008-09. Because all earnings on the Core will continue to be fully reinvested, it will be possible to generate new chair endowments from the Core's principal every two or three years. Thus, the "Mellon Core" will become a perpetual engine for creating endowed posts that in turn will provide significant budget support.
The College was one of 16 small "excellent but under-endowed" liberal arts colleges invited by the Mellon Foundation to apply for a Centers of Excellence grant to "address a major priority, leading to a long-lasting, positive educational and financial outcome."
"Alumnae/i, friends and foundations are responding with enormous generosity to the challenge presented by the Mellon Foundation – and the focused, inspired efforts of President Myers," said Robert Riggs, chairman of the Board of Trustees. "The $3 million grant has already leveraged $9 million and we are well on our way to a fund goal of $15 million."
For a variety of reasons, among them the fact that the College is relatively young compared to its peers, Sarah Lawrence has a small endowment – approximately $63 million as of the last fiscal year. At the same time it has one of the lowest student - faculty ratios in the country. Ninety percent of its classes are seminars with a maximum of 15 students. Its unique pedagogy institutionalizes one-on-one meetings with faculty through conferences, or independent study components, for each class. A commitment to teaching and student advisement, in addition to academic excellence, characterizes the faculty.
"Teaching people to think well takes face-to-face time between teachers and students and that requires substantial investment in faculty," said President Michele Myers.


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They collapsed in unison, sprawling across the floor of the Clark County Event Center, deeply breathing as if they had just sprinted to the finish line of a marathon.
When time expired on the final 25-minute workout at the CrossFit Fort Vancouver Invitational, a group of competitors who are motivated by testing their limits welcomed the conclusion of two days of intense exercise.
"I was glad it was the last one," Jessica Core said. "It was hard."
Core, of Vancouver, teamed with Erin Taylor of Portland to represent CrossFit Fort Vancouver and finished second in the women's competition.
Held for the first time, the CrossFit Fort Vancouver Invitational brought together 64 competitive exercisers to race through two days of challenging workouts.
Though not a CrossFit, Inc.-sanctioned competition, the participants were invited based on success in official CrossFit Games competition.
Competing as two-person teams, the athletes worked together to complete workouts that tested strength, agility, stamina and mental toughness.
"We don't talk about it a lot, but there's a lot of mental strength that goes into a hard, intense workout," said Austin Stack of Medford, Ore. "To go to that level is pretty painful, but that intensity is where the results are at. It happens at a quick pace."
Teams were awarded points based on their finish in each of the timed events.
Stack and teammate Cole Sager of Seattle won the men's competition with 640 points, good for a $1,600 prize. Both former college football players, they finished first in six of the eight stages of the two-day competition. Stack played for Southern Oregon University and Sager was a walk-on at Washington who played four seasons for the Huskies on special teams.
The women's title was claimed by the team of Rory Zambard and Jenn Jones, whose wins in Saturday's three workouts were enough to outscore Core and Taylor. They shared $1,540 in prize money.
"I'll take being beaten by two Games individual athletes," Core said. "I'm happy with second for sure."
Zambard, of Seattle, placed 13th at the 2013 CrossFit Games and Jones, of Houston, placed sixth. The chance to compete with other top athletes for prize money drew them to Vancouver.
"There was just a very high level of athletes here," said Jones, a former gymnast who twice competed at the NCAA championships for Central Michigan. "Being around that level of athlete allows you to be challenged and pushed in ways that you might not be able to do if you're out training."
Bringing together top-flight athletes was Nathan Loren's idea. Loren and CrossFit Fort Vancouver owner Adam Neiffer envisioned a small event. But Loren, the competition director for the invitational, said it grew to 32 teams after an enthusiastic response from athletes. Neiffer of Vancouver and teammate Jerome Perryman of Portland finished fourth among 16 men's teams, just missing the third-place prize money.
Participating in a high-level competition was reward enough, Neiffer said. "I think the event challenged every single competitor there," Neiffer said, adding that they plan on hosting this competition annually.
For the women's champions, Jones had to push through a broken thumb she suffered on Saturday, a weightlifting relay.
"I just relied on a lot of adrenaline and the wonderful medical staff that they had for the athletes," Jones said.
Zambard said she began training at a CrossFit gym to prepare for high school softball. She has been competing as a fitness athlete for about three years. Noting that the CrossFit Games happen only once a year, she said events like this invitational give athletes a chance to push each other.
"It's a reminder of why you love competition. It gets your adrenaline up," Zambard said. "It gives you that thrill of what you're training so hard for in the offseason."
Sunday's final event pushed every participant.
Stack and Sager were the only men's team to complete the final 25-minute test. Core and Taylor were one of two women's teams to finish the final challenge. That workout started with teams completing 100 chest-to-bar pull-ups. It included three different weightlifting exercises (with men's teams moving more weight than the women), 100 burpees (jumping over a bar between pushups) and 100 pistols (squatting by bending one knee and extending the opposite leg horizontally).
Not exactly a typical Sunday workout. But these competitors insist it's about fun.
"As adults, we don't get to play," Jones said. "This is just such a unique experience for adults to be able to go out and compete like they did either in college or in high school."


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U.S. Appeals Court Overturns EPA's Pollution Rule
WASHINGTON -- In a blow to oil refiners, chemical makers and other polluting industries, a federal appeals court threw out a rule that prevented states from implementing tougher pollution-monitoring requirements.
The decision by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit could lead to higher compliance costs and give states, local authorities and environmentalists more data that could be used to prosecute polluters, environmentalists said.
The decision marks the latest instance in which a federal court has rejected the approach to regulating harmful emissions taken by the administration of President George W. Bush. "It is a pretty serious rebuke of the Bush administration's efforts to tie the hands of states at the behest of industry," said John Walke, director of the clean-air program at the Natural Resources Defense Council. The court found the Environmental Protection Agency's rule under the Clean Air Act "is contrary to the statutory directive that each permit must include adequate monitoring requirements."
EPA spokesman Timothy Lyons said the agency "will determine an appropriate course of action" after it reviews the decision. Historically, the EPA has had little success in getting decisions from the appeals court reversed.
The American Petroleum Institute, whose members include Exxon Mobil Corp. XOM 0.23 % , Chevron Corp. CVX 0.51 % and ConocoPhillips, COP -0.89 % was a party in the case in support of the EPA. API spokeswoman Cathy Landry said the organization's lawyers were "in the process of reviewing the decision to determine the impact on the industry."
Amendments to the Clean Air Act enacted in 1990 compelled industrial polluters to obtain state and local permits that identify all emission limits and include "monitoring...requirements to assure compliance with the permit terms and conditions." Because the existing monitoring requirements didn't always assure compliance, some states wanted to add more requirements. The Bush administration rule prohibited state action.
The court's decision was one in a string of rulings scrapping Bush administration air-quality policies. Last month, the same court struck down the administration's signature air-quality program, the Clean Air Interstate Rule -- one of the few Bush administration efforts applauded by the environmental community. The regulation, announced in 2005 and covering more than two dozen states, sought to slash emissions that contribute to respiratory illnesses by instituting a "cap and trade" system in which companies that exceed their emissions caps can buy allowances from companies that do not.
The EPA had predicted the rule would prevent about 17,000 premature deaths a year. The court, in response to a suit brought by power companies, invalidated the regulation.
In February, the appeals court rejected the EPA's decision to remove mercury from a list of pollutants the agency is required to control at each power plant. Last year, a divided Supreme Court ruled that carbon dioxide and other so-called greenhouse gases are air pollutants under the Clean Air Act, and that the Bush administration had wrongly refused to limit emissions of those gases.
-- Stephen Power contributed to this article.
Write to Ian Talley at email@example.com


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Running Stretches: Hip Flexors
Creaking like the Tin Man?
Hip Flexors and why they matter!
Remember how the Tin Man needed his joints oiling in The Wizard of Oz? Well, so do you! Oiling your muscles and tendons with a good stretch will stop you creaking in the mornings and help you feel more comfortable when you're out running.
When I ask customers, 'do you stretch enough?' The usual response is, 'I don't stretch as much as I should.' And then everyone talks about the calf, quads, hamstrings, but rarely mentions the hip flexors.
What are the hip flexors? They're the muscles and tendons on the anterior (front) of your hip joint, linking your legs to your pelvis. They influence the movement between your top and bottom half. They effect the smoothness of your stride, feed into your quads, affect your hamstrings, and if they're tight, affect the spine and cause lower back pain.
So, they're pretty important!
And that's why I filmed this short video to show you an all in one stretch that will loosen you up from hip-to-toe.
The Grid is another great tool to enhance your stretching routine.
Find out how the Grid can act as replacement masseuse here »
Now, got any questions? Maybe you have a great tip on stretching you want to share with all of us? Drop me a comment below
And make sure you get all our top tips on training by signing up to our newsletter (below)
And good luck with your training!
Leave a Comment
paulaMay 4, 2013 at 3:51pmGreat stretches,i'm back running after a partial ham string tear and physio and also do karate.I would really appreciate some more ham and quad stretches and any advice to improve and maintain flexibility to keep my legs flexible so I can do both the activities I love.
Thanks in advance1 Reply
Shankara SmithMay 7, 2013 at 2:34pmHi Paula,
Thanks for your comment. It's great to hear you're getting back into running. After a muscle injury it's really important to ensure your muscles are properly warmed up before you exert them too much, so start each session with a 5 to 10 minute brisk walk, or gentle jog. Follow this with gentle stretching of your hamstrings; if you're outside find a bench/low railing to rest your foot on and then bend at the waist, hold the stretch and breathe into it, then ease back and repeat. It's not a bad idea to squeeze in a quad stretch at this point too, just hold onto a tree/bench/wall and pull your foot towards your glutes, pushing your knee towards the ground to get a good stretch.
When you're warming down after exercise, follow the stretches in the video above, and to ensure you're stretching the hamstring fully, try angling your foot a bit to the left and then the right of straight, this will encourage a deeper stretch throughout the entire muscle. I would also recommend you invest in a Grid, it's so great for massaging out tension in big muscle groups, and we've got a handy vlog on it for you to follow: see Using the Grid: For Runners here »
Enjoy the road back to fitness! Reply
HeideJune 13, 2015 at 5:04pmI've really hurt me hip flexor and I competed today and yesterday and am competition tomorrow Wednesday Thursday and Sunday next week! What do you recommend for quick pain relief? Reply
Shankara SmithJune 15, 2015 at 10:33am
Hi Heide,Reply
The hip flexor tendons can be slow to recover, so you definitely want to take it easy. I would suggest gentle stretching, not pushing it beyond what feels like a gradual release. You can also try using an ice pack for ten to fifteen minutes a day. You also need to consider what brought on the problem in the first place, whether tightness in quads has put more pressure on the hip flexors, or stomach muscles tightness from over-crunching, etc.
If you've got competitions coming up then you'd be best advised to visit a good physio to get advice and speed up recovery.
Good luck
RaulOctober 10, 2015 at 10:41amHello Miss Shankara;
Wow..very great vedio for streching for hip flexors... i will definitely used it on my system.
Thank you so much. Reply
ShankaraOctober 12, 2015 at 11:10amHi Raul,
That's great to hear, thanks. I use this stretch all the time and it saves me!
JonathanNovember 1, 2015 at 12:21pmThanks for the routine. I thought I was just getting too old to start running! ? Reply
Shankara SmithNovember 2, 2015 at 1:09pm
You are never too old! But stretching does become more essential as the years tick by. Enjoy your runs and just take it steady, as long as you don't overdo it your body will adjust quite quickly. Good luck :-)Reply


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Cincinnati police are investigating a crash that damaged a Northside home.
Police said a pickup trying to avoid a spinning car slid on black ice, hit a parked car, then hit the front of the house in the 4000 block of Virginia Avenue just before 8 a.m.
The impact damaged the front wall and porch of the home. The parked car was shoved into a neighbor's yard, police said.
Police said the driver was not injured.
The crash remains under investigation.
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Windlands South
3800 Sam Boney Dr, Nashville, TN 37211
Independent Living, Retirement Communities
Please call 1-800-741-0926 to speak to a Care Advisor
3800 Sam Boney Dr, Nashville, TN 37211
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Conveniently located just minutes from downtown Nashville, you'll love all the hospitality and friendliness Windlands South offers. Enjoy our warm summers, mild winters and all the colors of the seasons just outside your door. Explore all that Nashville has to offer with trips to the Loveless Café, the Parthenon, the Grand Old Opry and Bicentennial Park. We're conveniently close to shopping, several area hospitals and wonderful entertainment. Our live-in managers are here 24 hours a day to make you feel at home. You'll love coming home to us.
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Submit with facebook
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'King of the Spot'
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When will this be open?
This is in Port Adelaide, not Port Augusta.
You know a list is a dud when Riverslide is number three.
its not even a proper spot, they've waxed the gutter xD


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Bump in the Road
Wednesday, October 16, 2013
Amen. Working out has never really been much of an issue for me. Don't get me wrong...do I whine and complain that I don't feel like going for a run or going to do exercise? SURE I DO! I don't think there is anyone on this planet that wants to work out all of the time. But it has always been the 'less difficult' part of loosing weight for me. THE KITCHEN or should I say more aptly RESTAURANT KITCHENS are the hard part for me. Where we live, we are 5 minutes from a dozen restaurants and even more pizza places, etc. It is so easy to be lazy and not feel like planning and cooking a meal. In the past, my husband and I have gone through phases where we will go days at a time of feeding the kids something healthy for dinner and after they go to bed ordering some calorie overloaded food. EVERY TIME we are done we both feel like dirt. EVERY TIME we say we are done eating this way. And yet some how the next time we forget...and the vicious cycle continues. But I have vowed to break that cycle and have been doing a pretty good job up to this point...until last night. It was our anniversary. We don't have any family near us and with two small children the option to have a night out isn't there for us. My husband convinced me to go down this road again. We ordered out. And I FEEL LIKE DIRT. Now I know I could have picked a healthy option. However, somehow when it comes to restaurant food I really struggle with this. I have this mentality that if I am eating out and paying for it then I'm going to get what I really want. But this is just a bump in the road. I am not going to let it define me. I am not going to let it do what it has done to me in the past. It was one meal. It will not derail me. I will be back on track today and working out harder than ever. Because this means more to me than one bad meal. I want to be healthy for my family and just as importantly for myself!
So to everyone that has had a bump or two in the road, don't let it slow you down. Just keep pushing through because we can do this!
Have a great day, Sparkers!
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Mine is today but we celebrated our 37 years at Olive Garden. I had my favorite: chicken fettucini alfredo. We all make some poor choices at times but it's ok now and then.
957 days ago
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One meal will not undo your progress - unless you let it. Sounds like you've got the right attitude about it. Eating out at restaurants or ordering takeout and making it healthy is HARD. Most restaurants don't care about our health, they just want the money and make the food taste really good (butter, oil, fat) so we'll keep coming back! I say all this as someone who loves to eat at restaurants. But I know that when I do, I will most likely be going over my calorie range for the day. It stinks. That's why I try not to do it more than once a week.
Anyway, don't give up! Just keep trying. Pretty much anything you cook at home will be healthier than a typical restaurant meal. You can do it!
957 days ago
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I agree that for Special Occasions it is nice to treat yourself but you do have to put in a little extra effort to Compensate for it. Are you and your husband both trying to lose weight, or are you just trying to drag him along?? It may be a good time to sit down together and discuss your weightloss goals, and find activities that you can do together as a family to work toward them. Good luck! It's a long and winding road with many a pothole to bounce through before you get to your goal! but the journey will be well worth it.
957 days ago
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I hear ya! We have a lot of good restaurants in our area and it's so tempting after a hard day to just order out. Planning ahead is key. Plan your healthy meals in advance and keep your fridge stocked with healthy fruits and veggies.
Happy Anniversary! Splurging on special occasions is allowed as long as you don't find an excuse to make every day a special occasion. Don't be too hard on yourself and get back on track.
Have a great day!
957 days ago
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great blog. we all have a bump in the road. the good thing is you recognize it and are doing something to improve it. Happy Anniversary.
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PE Pioneer Irene Has Made History; Top Book Records Work with Girls of IM Marsh
Byline: By BEN TURNER Education Reporter
A PE pioneer who devoted her life to promoting exercise in Liverpool has been assured her place in the history books.
Walton-born Irene Marsh is credited with paving the exercise path for hundreds of girls in the north west.
In 1900 she opened a college - now owned by Liverpool John Moores university - to train them to become PE teachers.
And her innovative efforts to give women equal access to exercise have been saluted in the latest edition of the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.
Printed in 60 volumes the dictionary is a respected reference point highlighting the lives of 56,000 notable historical characters.
The dictionary reveals how after taking director jobs at gymnasiums in Liverpool and Bootle Irene was able to "save enough to found the Liverpool Physical Training College".
It adds: "This was a period in which female emancipation was associated with the ability of women to take up sport and exercise and the college flourished."
She died in her mid-60s in 1938 - but the site at Barkhill Road, Aigburth, lives on.
Now known as the IM Marsh campus it is run by Liverpool John Moores and its PE chief, Pat Shenton, said it was only fitting the "inspirational leader" was being honoured in print. …


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- Sold for: Start Free Trial or Sign In to see what it's worth.
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2 WATERFORD CRYSTAL GLASSWARE COVERED CANDY DISH & BOWLTake a look at these beautiful Waterford Crystal pieces. You will receive a Waterford Crystal Covered Candy Dish & Crystal Bowl! We w told that the smaller bowl is Waterford also but can not confirm it. The large one is marked "Waterford" on the bottom. however each piece is in excellent condition. These have wonderful intricate patterns and starburst designs on the bottom. These are in excellent condition with no chips or cracks. Covered Candy Dish stands 7" tall to top of finial on the lid x 5 1/4" diameter. Other Candy Dish stands 1 1/2" tall x 5 1/4" diameter. These pieces beautifully sparkle in the light and show contrasting "rainbow" effects. Pictures do not show justice to these pieces. Scroll down for payment terms and shipping information .
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- Andy Katz - Upgrading to Oracle E-Business Suite Release 12.1 Without Losing Your Hair or Your Wallet
- Benjamin Prusinski - Lockdown: Secure Your Database in a Day
- Brian Huff - Creating a Global E-Commerce Site with Oracle E-Business Suite and Oracle Fusion Middleware
- Chris Muir - Angels in the Architecture: An Oracle Application Development Framework Architectural Blueprint
- Debra Lilley - Do I Upgrade or Go Straight to Oracle Fusion Applications?
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July 23, 2011
163 ACEs In This Deck
If Oracle OpenWorld 2011 content catalog was a deck of cards, there would be 163 Aces in the deck. The Oralce Technology Network (OTN) Blog lists the Oracle ACE holders presenting at Oracle OpenWorld in a blog post appropriately titled: Are You Kidding Me? 163 Oracle ACE Sessions at Oracle OpenWorld
Posted by Mohan Dutt at 00:28
Labels: #oow11, ACE, OpenWorld 2011
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"Aqua Bus" False Creek Ferries & Aquabus Tip by Dabs
False Creek Ferries & Aquabus, Vancouver: 20 reviews and 33 photos
We used the Aqua Bus to get from Granville Island to Yaletown, it was a short pleasant ride on False Creek. Fares range from $2.50 to $5.00, we paid $3.50 for our ride. Not every ferry goes to every stop so be sure to inquire when boarding. Other stops include Hornby Street, David Lam Park, Stamp's Landing, Spyglass, Plaza of Nations and Science World. The Aqua Buses are privately run so public transit passes or tickets are not valid.
Times of operation and route map can be found on the attached website. If you are planning on using the Aqua Bus a lot, you can purchase Aqua Bucks and passes.
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December 04,2012RUDOLPH, Ohio Volunteers in the northwest Ohio village of Rudolph have come together to save the most famous postmark of all. Thousands of letters flood the village post office every December so they can be stamped with a Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer postmark. But the tradition was in danger of ending when the post office staff was cut down to one and the work became too much to handle. Thats when volunteers in the community decided to take over the job. When word spread, pleadings from local politicians and townsfolk persuaded the U.S. Postal Service to allow volunteers to stamp the special Reindeer Station postmark on the 80,000 letters and cards that come in from across the country. Close to 75 people, including a few retired postal workers, have signed up to work daily shifts.
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Worst states for retirement
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There's a tradition in England that they hold big street parties after a royal wedding. But transplanted Brits couldn't be home to celebrate, so they had to make their own.
Thousands of miles from home, Brits staged their own street party Friday at The British school of Washington. Some had been up since 3 a.m. Students dressed in their royal finest - hats, dresses fir for a princess and tiaras - and celebrated the marriage between Prince William and Kate Middleton.
After making crowns, party goers signed a congratulatory banner to send overseas and then cut their own wedding cake.
"It makes us feel like we're home," said one. "It's fun to have American friends experiencing with us."