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Misinformation on the internet
While the internet can be a valuable tool to obtain information, one needs to be very aware that there is also a lot of rubbish and misinformation published on the web. Adelaide journalist Tory Shepherd talks about this worrying trend and she points to groups such as climate sceptics, the anti-vaccination lobby and the people opposing fluoridation in our water supply as examples of untruths being published.
Robyn Williams: Do you hold any really odd beliefs—in ghosts, UFOs, tooth fairies, the sanctity of the Turin Shroud? Well, hang on, I better stop that list before I get astroturfed by believers. Science does act as a bullshit filter, as you know, but you also know that any determined person who's really off with the fairies can pick at the evidence and find ways to resist it, especially now that we have the confounded internet. There you are, an almost infinite treasure house, a constant supply of sources to reinforce any purple opinion you feel like preserving.
Ahhh, you could reply, a typically whiskery view from an ancient grump. But no, here's Tory Shepherd, a person of undoubted youthfulness, who is a senior writer for The Advertiser newspaper in Adelaide.
Tory Shepherd: You know you're no longer young yourself when you start to worry about the youth of today. Well, I worry for the youth of today.
Not because they won't stand up for their elders on buses, or because their skirts are too short, or their hair too long. Not because of drugs or alcohol, although these are big issues I know. Teenagers misbehave, that's their schtick, I'm sure it's part of the cycle of life, of separation from their parents, of becoming their own people and most of them emerge from the other side unscathed.
But I'm worried about their perceptions of truth. Of logic, of reason. I worry that the internet is making a mush of their still plastic brains. We're in this unprecedented age of bullshit where as soon as they can swipe a casual finger across the screen of a smart phone or tablet kids can wallow in half truths and utter codswallop.
They're growing up thinking that truth is a relative thing; that one person's truth is as good as another's. If it's on a website, it's published, it must be true. It's a warped sort of egalitarianism, where Wikipedia becomes the new source for facts and you don't need experts anymore.
In a sense this probably all started with postmodernism and social science. There was plenty of terribly earnest work done, much of it by anthropologists and the like on the function of cultural behaviours and often this desperate struggle for understanding of other people ended in a sort of moral relativism. This belief that truth is in the eye of the beholder. Which of course it is sometimes. But there is also objective truth, observable truth and the best way to get close to this sort of truth is through science.
So what I worry about with the youth of today is their grasp of science and their ability to follow logic and reason. The reason I worry so much is that I've seen how quickly adults can turn, how quickly they lose their way once they get online. The internet allows you to prove whatever the hell you like. Do you believe in fairies? Google away and you can find all sorts of pseudo-science, pictures of fairy corpses and YouTube clips of fairies. The same goes for Bigfoot and of course aliens. You can start to build yourself an edifice of proof, of fallacies, of utter bullshit.
And if older people, many of them in the examples we'll look at are in their 40s, 50s or older, can build their own little fortresses of truth, then what about these young people who are always able to do this, who get a far bigger proportion of their knowledge from online, who have swum in cyberspace from the very beginning?
I want to look at three different issues that I keep butting up against where the pseudoscience has built up to a point where it's really hard to tear down. In each of these issues there is a mixture of conspiracy theories, misuse of statistics, cherry picking of data and a genuine emotion behind them which makes it even harder to fight against. In each there are attempts to sway public policy which is why I've chosen them to talk about over Bigfoot or fairies or little green men. So first to climate change.
It's clear that there's agreement between most scientists and the vast majority of scientific institutions that the climate is changing and that human activity has played a role in that. There is what is called a consensus on those basic facts.
Then there's debate and ongoing research into what the exact effects of climate change will be and just how much of it is attributable to our propensity to guzzle gas and chop down carbon sinks like the Amazon and pump CO₂ into the atmosphere. So there's a spectrum of beliefs in there, from those who think disaster is imminent to those who think we've got a way to go yet.
Then there are the people who disbelieve the original consensus, they think that humans have nothing to do with any changes in the climate, or they think there are no changes in the climate. They have built a vast online web of 'proofs' to back up their claims.
They pull out random data sets and say they show that the climate is not changing. They point to scientists disagreeing on the details and say that shows there is no consensus. They say scientists are only arguing that anthropogenic climate change is happening because that's where the funds are, where the money is. They say scientists are conspiring to keep the truth hidden. These are not ignorant people, they are actively working against the existing evidence.
The second group on my list is the anti-vaccination mob.
The anti-vaxxers are notorious among doctors and scientists. They will go on the attack as soon as they see an article about the amazing good that vaccinations have been proven to do. You can see how these things start. Who wants to jab their child to cause them pain? There's a cognitive dissonance there.
The movement really took off in the mid '90s when a doctor Andrew Wakefield published a paper linking the measles mumps and rubella vaccinations with autism. That paper was shown recently to be not only complete bunkum but fraudulent but it's too late, the damage has been done, the anti-vaxxers had converts and if they didn't believe that vaccinations caused autism, they believed all sorts of other half truths, that they're toxic or dangerous, or monkey brains.
Again they find their own proof. It's mostly anecdotal, if a child who has been vaccinated later gets sick or develops autism or some kind of disorder the anti-vaxxers link the two. They find causation where there is none. They listen to 'experts' who put 'doctor' in front of their name. They listen to homeopaths who say that their medicines, which are effectively nothing but water, are better, are safer than proven injections.
They take the statistics on adverse events, and there are adverse events, but the benefits of vaccination far outweigh any risks and they scare parents into not vaccinating. The anti-vaxxers are organised, they are online, they are spreading fear and they say scientists are conspiring to keep the truth hidden.
The third thing I want to talk about is fluoride in the water.
This is an anti-scientific conspiracy theory that has all the same hallmarks as the climate change and the anti-vaccination ones. And this is a particularly scary one because it appears to be having an effect on government policy. It goes like this more or less: The fluoride in the water is toxic. The government is poisoning the population.
Just for the record the water is safe. Not only that but fluoridation is an incredibly cheap and effective public health measure. Just ask any dentist what they see when they treat kids from places without fluoride in the water. I first came across the anti-fluoride movement when the government was moving to fluoridate the water at Mount Gambier in South Australia. I spoke to parents who were frightened for the health of their children, because the anti-fluoride movement had been telling them the government was going to put a neurotoxin in their drinking water.
Now these aren't just fringe nutjobs. In South Australia there is an independent senator, Ann Bressington, who thinks the government is poisoning us. This is a politician. She says on her website 'There is compelling evidence that our water is being poisoned, that it is for commercial gain and that government ministers for decades have been deceived by health officials and, let's face it, this wouldn't be the first time that they have got it wrong. It would also not be the first time that governments have made decisions in the interest of corporations above the interests of the people they are paid to serve.'
Now I've been having an ongoing barney with Ms Bressington over these and other claims, and it's a scary world to brush up against. The group she appeals to is nasty, threatening and abusive. They call for the lynching of people like Health Minister Tanya Plibersek. They say she's committed crimes against humanity for allowing fluoride in the water, again fluoride in the water, a cheap and effective public health measure.
But then again, maybe we'd be all nasty, threatening and abusive if we truly believed the government was poisoning us. Some of them even think the fluoride is being used to control our minds, to ensure a compliant population. I make the point about their behaviour because it shows that these people, like the climate change deniers and like the anti-vaxxers are not just gentle spiritual types, happy with their woo woo. They're not just hippies with crystals and chakras. They are not just non-scientific or pseudoscientific, they are anti science. They expend enormous amounts of time and energy tracking down and attacking anyone who defends the science.
They start petitions, they write to politicians. They smear the reputations of scientists and the authorities that trust those scientists from impartial evidence. They say again, that scientists are conspiring to keep the truth hidden. And sometimes they have unfortunate victories.
In Queensland recently, the government revoked the compulsory fluoridation of water. LNP backbencher Jason Woodforth lobbied his party for the change which means that councils can choose not to put fluoride in the water. He says 'We're actually topping up with a toxic waste chemical that's a proven scientific neurotoxin.' Which is one of those weird mutant half truths. Many things are toxic if you have enough of them. Fluoride in the water however is safe. But he says half the backbench is behind him.
When the ABC asked him about his qualifications to pronounce on fluoride he said 'Education and health is... how do I describe it? Education in health is actually understanding that there's one way, which is sort of like the processed food way, that doesn't get you the result and then realising there's other ways. So you can actually do your own research. What I say to people is you don't need letters after your name to work out what's right and what's wrong.'
Do your own research. It sounds nice and egalitarian and democratic and of course people should do their own research. But they also need to know the limits of their knowledge and how to research and who to trust. I suspect Mr Woodforth, when he said 'do your own research', meant Google stuff online. He meant don't trust the scientists, the people with letters after their names. Don't trust the science, find your own truth.
This loss of faith in science, in institutions, treats science as though it's just another belief system when the truth is that it's the best one, the only self-correcting one, the universal one, the one that can predict what happens next.
If adults, serious adults, political adults, these people in authority, can get it wrong so often and if kids are depending on parents when all these parents get sucked in, what hope have they of even knowing how to judge truth?
And without science, without truth they will be ill equipped to tackle the big problems of the world, to judge right from wrong and good from bad and they will end up in a dark room bashing away at their keyboards about fluoride and about climate change and about vaccinations instead of out in the sun, revelling in the beauty of the natural world.
Robyn Williams: And trying to understand it as you revel. Tory Shepherd is a senior writer for The Advertiser in Adelaide and, as you'll infer, she's produced many a column putting the case for rational thinking over credulousness.
Next week some more heated argument: Former CSIRO principal scientist Mike Foale puts the case for coconut oil, which only this week a cardiologist from the University of Queensland warned us against.
- Tory Shepherd
- Journalist
The Advertiser newspaper
Further Information
- Presenter
- Robyn Williams
- Producer
- Brigitte Seega
Comments (64)
02 Jun 2013 8:01:06am
Thank you!
Rod Stevens :
02 Jun 2013 8:22:21am
This is great! It shows the ABC is on the back foot. People would have to really bored to sit through that recording. Debunk Hon Ann Bressinton MLC on her UN Agenda 21 information as well? Nope, you left that out. I'm all in favor of fluoride as long as I can spit it out after brushing. ABC always takes the side of dentists. Why? How about getting a toxicologist like Dr Paul Connett on for balanced reporting? And pigs will fly. I dread the day white coats invent digestible sunscreen. ABC will parrot "public health measure" to justify mass medication in the drinking water again. Mr Willams - my body, and the bodies of my family that know how to use a toothbrush and paste, belong to me and my family members, not you or the so called government that Hon Ann Bressinton MLC has shown to be in Constitutional crisis. I feel depressed about that. Maybe Mr Willams would support anti-depressants in the water as well? It's amazing how the sugar industry is always left out of the tooth decay picture by the ABC. Good luck with your decreasing ratings, ABC. (screen shot saved)
Noel Wauchope :
02 Jun 2013 2:36:28pm
All the reputable science backs fluoride. In places where fluoride naturally occurs in over-abundance, the effect has been that people have teeth that are mottled in color, but very strong. That's all.
I have read fascinating books in public libraries in rural Victoria - where they "demonstrate" that fluoridation makes people vote Labor! They had graphs and maps and all!
The force behind this was Eric Butler's "League of Rights"
Also while I'm at it "Agenda 21 " has been a really good idea - alerting local councils world-wide to the need for sustainability.
jon elbourne :
02 Jun 2013 8:58:04am
Once again those of us who would like to have a reasonable discussion on the benefits and dangers of immunisation have been consigned to the loony bin.
Where, oh where, are the people who study the side-effects and philosophy of mass vaccinations in academia? Do they refuse to appear on such programs as the recent one on SBS and Ockham's Razor or do the presenters of these programs fail to find them?
In neither program was there an examination of the US Vaccine Court, the most obvious manifestation of the social impact of both the politics and side-effects of mass vaccination in the world.
I spent four wonderful years studying the history and philosophy of science in the STS department at Wollongong University when it had the most remarkable people running this course. There I learned that a rational scientist can be the most dangerous person on Earth.
Ridicule is no answer to a reasoned argument and I think William of Occum might agree with me on that.
Noel Wauchope :
02 Jun 2013 2:40:31pm
How people forget!
Some of us are old enought to remember the polio epidemic of the 1950s and 60s. Go to any country cemetery and check out the infant deaths from scarlet fever, whoopig cough - back befor immunisation.
Sure -there have been some scandals in the developing world - crooked pharmaceuticals with tainted or ineffective vaccines.
Unfortunately, the unimmunised child can be a walking danger to him/herself, and to other children
dmills :
02 Jun 2013 2:53:51pm
" a reasonable discussion "
I think a reasonable discussion would refer to the bulk of the peer-reviewed evidence indicating that fluoridation is safe and beneficial, - not groups of self-appointed "experts", biased and very small samples, anecdotal evidence, conspiracy theories and (conveniently) uncited "studies".
People who insist on relying on the latter "sources" are not reasonable!!!
Rod Stevens :
02 Jun 2013 3:49:50pm
@Noel Wauchope. I clearly stated that my family and I use fluoride. It's the FORCED delivery system we have issue with. Put it in the products that cause decay most. You, Ms Shepard and the ABC going to lobby sugar food companies to do that? No! Mr Williams spoke about "aliens", so I'll drift off science as well. As for Agenda 21 - being dictated to locally in a Sovereign Independent Nation such as Australia by an unelected foreign power, is against S44(.i) of the Commonwealth Constitution. Last week Tony Morris QC (Queens Council) Constitutional expert, went on record at the PickeringPost.com saying local councils (CORPORATIONS with ABN's and submissive to L-Agenda 21) are forbidden to "fine" Australian citizens. At Federation 1901, only two tiers of government existed. There's never been a S128 Referendum to create a lawful THIRD tier of government, never, period. Those that believe otherwise, I'm happily awaiting your reply with the Government Gazetted date when the THIRD tier was lawfully (acts are not law) created per S128 Referendum. Good luck with that. (screen shot taken)
D.King :
03 Jun 2013 1:52:29pm
It would appear that Rod Stevens (above) is confusing section 44 of the Australian Constitution for something else - perhaps some random misinformation heard about on the internet - the whole subject of this particular article it must be noted some some irony. Mr. Stevens says "As for Agenda 21 - being dictated to locally in a Sovereign Independent Nation such as Australia by an unelected foreign power, is against S44(.i) of the Commonwealth Constitution. " Yet S44 is about the electability of representatives to the Federal Parliament. It reads:
Section 44
44. Any person who -
(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power: or (ii.) Is attainted of treason, or has been convicted and is under sentence, or subject to be sentenced, for any offence punishable under the law of the Commonwealth or of a State by imprisonment for one year or longer: or (iii.) Is an undischarged bankrupt or insolvent: or (iv.) Holds any office of profit under the Crown, or any pension payable during the pleasure of the Crown out of any of the revenues of the Commonwealth: or (v.) Has any direct or indirect pecuniary interest in any agreement with the Public Service of the Commonwealth otherwise than as a member and in common with the other members of an incorporated company consisting of more than twenty-five persons:
shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.
But sub-section iv. does not apply to the office of any of the Queen's Ministers of State for the Commonwealth, or of any of the Queen's Ministers for a State, or to the receipt of pay, half pay, or a pension, by any person as an officer or member of the Queen's navy or army, or to the receipt of pay as an officer or member of the naval or military forces of the Commonwealth by any person whose services are not wholly employed by the Commonwealth.
It should also be noted that the Constitution does not forbid the States of Australia from making any laws as they see fit - for example: Local Governments. And under most Local Government Acts of the various States of Australia, Local Governments are empowered to enact By-Laws. And these By-Laws have fines attached to them. So naturally if one doesn't pay a Local Government "fine", "fee" or "levy" (or whatever) then they are in breach of elements of State based Local Government Acts. Which probably implies the State based Police operating under State based Acts will probably be after you ;)
Diane Drayton Buckland :
02 Jun 2013 9:51:30am
This Journalist and many like her in Australia in mainstream will one day be held accountable for their lack of journalistic integrity and lack of unbiased (independent) research. Unfortunately these 'journalists' get to publish their propaganda as obvious spokespeople for the pro-fluoridation lobby which in itself is a disgrace.
The evidence that water fluoridation (ie pollution with hazardous waste & co-contaminants) is not safe & not effective is overwhelming, the dental crisis Australia and USA suffer after decades of water fluoridation/pollution shows it's a fraud. Here is some brief information:-
Dennis Stevenson, a former Parliamentarian and Member of the ACT Legislative Assembly 'Fluoridation Inquiry' (1989-91). The majority of inquiry members would not report the scientific, medical, dental and court evidence received in worldwide submissions proving that fluoridation causes disease, deaths, tooth decay and is useless and environmentally destructive. Dennis put this evidence in a 177 page Dissenting Report, part of this major government report, but longer than the 131 page section which attempted to suppress the evidence.
For over 100 years, science and medicine have understood the poisonous nature of fluoride. In the 1930's and 40's, giant US companies, e.g. ALCOA, were sued for millions of dollars due to toxic fluoride waste escaping from factory smokestacks killing crops and livestock. ALCOA's owners (Mellon) figured that if people could be persuaded fluoride isn't poisonous but is good for teeth, profits could be protected. So, to introduce water fluoridation, they hired the brilliant 'father of propaganda' Edward L. Bernays. Joined later by other fluoride polluting industries (e.g. nuclear) and the multi-billion dollar sugar, toothpaste, confectionary and soft drink industries, they became strong financial supporters of dental associations that promoted fluoridation. One such support group, the Dental Health Education & Research Foundation (DHERF) was founded in Australia in 1962. Its Governors, Members and donors comprised key representatives from Coca-Cola, CSR, Kelloggs, Colgate-Palmolive, Wrigleys, Arnotts, Scanlens, Cadbury Schweppes, etc. The following 12 points require no expertise in fluoride toxicity, just common sense:….
"EPA has more than enough evidence to shut down fluoridation right now." (Dr. Robert Carton)
"Fluoridation," says former EPA senior scientist Robert J. Carton, PhD, "presents unacceptable risks to public health, and the government cannot prove its claims of safety. When this man talks of fluoridation dangers, it is time to listen. I am pleased to present the following exclusive interview, in edited form, with this outspoken EPA dissenter.
Dr. Carton has considerable experience as a risk assessment manager for the US Environmental Protection Agency, investigating asbesto
dmills :
02 Jun 2013 2:41:49pm
"The evidence that water fluoridation (ie pollution with hazardous waste & co-contaminants) is not safe & not effective is overwhelming."
On the contrary, the evidence indicating that fluoridation is safe and beneficial is overwhelming. That evidence is based on science. Over 50 years of investigation and research. Your "evidence", however, is anecdotal, harks at a "Big Business - Government" conspiracy theory, relies on the opinion of one off-the-wall politician and one well known anti-fluoridation scientist and (most telling of all) you ultimately fall back on the anti-science credo that you:
"require no expertise in fluoride toxicity, just common sense".
Common sense did not invent modern aircraft, penicillin, etc. Common sense does not take the place of scientific analysis. Our culture mostly relied on common sense, intuition, tradition and religion for thousands of years but it was not until the Enlightenment and the Industrial and Scientific revolutions that we found and gave precedence to effective method for discerning the truth and reliably predicting outcomes: science. The last few 100 years of western civilisation are impossible to envisage without the scientific revolution.
Noel Wauchope :
02 Jun 2013 2:47:49pm
As an anti-nuclear activist - I get particularly frustrated with the anti-fluoride stuff - because I have managed to collect a few anti-fluoridation people who are also keen anti-nuclear people. And there's no comparison, really, in the science.
The thing is - and this is what the speaker was sayng - the need to really, really, do one's homework.
To believe the anti fluoride stuff is to believe that every reputable dental body across the world is full of stupid people.
Doing one's homework means scrutinising Internet stuff. 1. Does it make sense to me? 2. Where does it come from? What's in it for whom?
3. How reputable are these scientific bodies? 4. Am I being spun by a conspiracy theorist?
J Graham :
02 Jun 2013 7:55:57pm
As an anti-nuclear activist you should read The Fluoride Deception - http://tinyurl.com/mbgga8d which author Christopher Bryson researched for 11 years. The concern for workers' health on the Manhatten Project was not from the adverse effects of radioactive materials but that of fluoride. Bryson uncovered government documents that showed reports of staff who became edentulous due to fluoride were changed to that they had good dental health.
If you don't think the book is worth the money, I'll give you a refund
Dave :
07 Jun 2013 1:26:25pm
I know I am but one example. My teeth ached continually while growing up and by the time of my early 20s nearly all my teeth had fillings as did everyone I knew except one guy from the Sudan. His teeth were unfilled and pristine and everyone was amazed. I have since learnt that the water in the Sudan has nature fluoride. Further up the water supply from Sudan is where mankind evolved. That is, we evolved with fluoride and that is why our teeth decay without it.
The health of my teeth improved dramatically from the mid 70s when fluoride was introduced. I suggest you talk to anyone (not from Africa) who was born before 1960. I'm afraid you are one of the victims of internet misinformation that this journalist is talking about.
Therese Mackay :
02 Jun 2013 10:15:07am
Dr. John Yiamouyiannis was, until his death in the fall of 2000, the world's leading authority on the biological effects of fluoride. His formal education included a B.S. in biochemistry from the University of Chicago and a Ph.D in biochemistry from the University of Rhode Island. After a year of postdoctoral research at Western Reserve University Medical School, Yiamouyiannis went on to become biochemical editor at Chemical Abstracts Service, the world's largest chemical information center. It was at Chemical Abstracts Service, where Yiamouyiannis became interested in the damaging effects of fluoride. I would rather listen to people like him that that person you had on this morning. It was a woeful. It was her own personal feelings not science...and not what I have come to expect in here. 90% of Europe is unfluoridated and their teeth are no worse than ours...actually in many countries such as Norway and Sweden their teeth are much better all without the benefit of this accumulative poison.
dmills :
02 Jun 2013 1:07:07pm
This is the same guy who: "ran for President in 1992 as an independent but was only on the ballot in a few states. He died of colorectal cancer in 2000, which he chose to have treated in several Mexican clinics with laetrile and vitamins instead of seeking conventional treatment. Colorectal cancer has a 95% chance of survival beyond 5 years if caught early and properly treated using scientifically proven methods."
From http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/John_Yiamouyiannis
Noel Wauchope :
02 Jun 2013 2:49:54pm
I'd rather listen to the world's dental bodies. After all, they really have nothing to gain from supporting fluoride. It makes for stronger teeth - especially for kids - surely meaning that dentists would get less business.
What on earth do they have to gain from a conspiracy to decive the public?
Rod Stevens :
02 Jun 2013 4:23:05pm
@dmills. Yes, he should have poisoned his body with radiation that's NEVER 100% guaranteed to work either. Dr. John Yiamouyiannis was an expert in fluoride, not cancer. I believe he also took his vehicle to a backyard mechanic instead of the dealership as well. He was an expert in fluoride, not motor vehicles. That old saying about babies and bath water comes to mind.
dmills :
02 Jun 2013 7:35:05pm
@rod stevens
Nothing is 100% but treating cancer using "alternative" (i.e. unproven medicine) instead of evidence based medicine with a 95% cure rate is taking a big risk as well as being very anti-scientific. I would not rely on the opinion of a scientist with such an obviously unscientific mindset and so obvious a personal bias in favour of "natural" remedies. You can if you wish but I think that would be a case of the blind leading the blind.
Yes, radiation is a poison. Most medicines are poisons!! All the heart drugs I take Warfarin (Rat Poison) and digoxin (Foxglove) and my gout medicine (Colgout) are poisons. It's the QUANTITY used that's the key. Water is a poison if you drink it in excessive quantities. So you're advising me to stop taking my prescribed drugs (and perhaps also stop drinking water)? Sometimes the efficacious dose (the quantity required), particularly for life threatening illnesses such as cancer and MS, causes ill-health but that is usually offset by the benefits.
Jimmy the Swede :
03 Jun 2013 7:02:14pm
Dental health in Scandinavia (at least in Sweden) is high because of the publicly subsidised nature of the dental healthcare system as well as the fact that dental nurses ("fluortanter") visit primary schools on a regular basis to both lecture on good oral hygiene and to administer fluoride mouthwash in schools where there is a high incidence of dental caries. In the 1990's the regular provison of (compulsory) fluoride mouthwash in all schools was discontinued owing to cost cutting measures, although the increased incidence of tooth decay among children has resulted in the program being reinstated in certain areas. The fact remains that in the mid 1950's Australian 12 year olds had an average of about 9 decayed teeth, which had fallen to an average of 1 by the late 1990's following the introduction of fluoridated water and toothpastes (http://bit.ly/10L9G30).
There is no such thing as fluoride-free drinking water since there is always a natural background of around 0.1-0.2 mg/l in "normal" surface derived sources (some geographic locations and deep wells can be much higher). The amount considered therapeutic for prevention of tooth decay is around 0.7-1.2 mg/l depending on climate (people drink more water in warm climates therefore lower concentrations are needed). Levels higher than about 1.3-1.5 mg/l increase the risk of unaesthetic mottled staining of developing teeth (infants). Seawater has an average of about 1.3 mg/l. In most drinking water directives around the world levels exceeding 1.5 mg/l would be considered non-drinkable. The serious health effect known as osteofluorosis can only occur at much higher levels >6 mg/l.
Stewart Fist :
02 Jun 2013 10:18:59am
Adelaide's columnist, Tory Shepherd in her Okham's Razor trots out all of the familiar claims of Evidence Based Medicine (EBM) to attack anti-vaccination and anti-flouridisation activists.
She went so far as to claim these activists were 'anti-science' and that their opinions should to be ignored.
I dislike simplistic expressions of zealotry when it comes from either side of a debate so I can't let her diatribe go unchallenged. There is a certain amount of anti-science zealotry in her position also.
The problems with Evidence Based Medicine are essentially three-fold:
1. Who decides what is the evidence ? Who does the analysis, and how should we weight competing evidence ?
The dental experts who rightly find a reduction in caries in towns with naturally fluorided water supplies, are not likely to take equal account of the legitimate suspicion that the cumulative effect of flouride over some people's lifetimes may effect bone and joint structure. There are a few studies which show this, but there's no convincing systematic evaluation -- one way of the other -- as far as I can tell.
Does the extraordinary rise in auto-immune diseases in the otherwise-healthy population in the last generation have any relationship to the constant attacks on the immune system during childhood from multiple vaccinations ? With vaccination being almost universal in Australia, if such a link existed, it would be almost impossible to demonstrate this through epidemiology.
I'm not at all satisfied that these possibilities have been adequately resolved -- and my reasons aren't anti-science, but pro-scientific method.
2. Evidence Based Medicine in a public health context is always in contest with the requirements of the precautionary principle. I am strongly in favour of this principle -- which is another way of saying, "If the problem isn't critical, allow for the fact that your decisions might be wrong."
There are often alternative ways of modifying the measures you seek to impose on others. For instance, fluoride added to milk could give customers a choice, and milk would tend to target children who need it most.
Today we have four sources of dental flouride - from our water, from our food, from toothpaste, and from direct application by a dentist. Water is the least efficient, and it is totally indiscriminate.
While the dosage received from the last two is reasonably regulated, the amount we consume from food and water is highly variable. Nor is any account taken of the age or other physical conditions of the person receiving this dose.
Also, with the advent of a national dental scheme, the insistance of the fluoridationists that water is the only way to ensure good teeth, lacks the political clout that it may have once had.
We also have world-class epidemic statistics and controls in this country. So Austra
Simon M. :
03 Jun 2013 11:44:39am
In regard to "constant attacks o n the immune system": http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124.full
There are also far less antigens in all the vaccines given today than 20 years ago. I received far more antigens from the vaccinations I received as a child than my children are currently receiving.
Fluoridation of water supplies isn't about adding fluoride. It is about balancing the levels. Stop treating it like it is only being added and not moderated.
Yes, you are being anti-science. Continuing to research areas that have been thoroughly researched is not scientific. If there is a noticeable change in the populations that have fluoride added and it seems that fluoride is possibly the cause then, yes, do more research. However; guessing that fluoride has negative effects on bones and joints and not seeing a correlation at all with fluoride is no reason for concern. It is an unfounded fear.
"Today we have four sources of dental flouride - from our water, from our food, from toothpaste, and from direct application by a dentist. Water is the least efficient, and it is totally indiscriminate."
...and again you are arguing from the point of view that fluoride in our water supplies is only added.
Dan Germouse :
03 Jun 2013 6:49:57pm
Simon, read the 2006 US National Research Council report on fluoride in drinking water, and the 2000 UK York review, and tell me that fluoridation has been thoroughly researched. You just don't know what you're talking about. And it isn't even controversial that fluoride has negative effects on bones and joints, because there are large numbers of people suffering from skeletal fluorosis in areas of the world where the groundwater is naturally high in fluoride. The only question is the dose at which these effects start to appear.
Woomera :
02 Jun 2013 11:49:54am
"where Wikipedia becomes the new source for facts and you don't need experts anymore..."
Yes, one shouldn't do their own research, one just needs to 'believe' the global warming message.
Doing some research on wikipedia we finds interesting stuff about a wikipedia website administrator and Green Party activist William Connolley
"(Connolley) turned Wikipedia into the missionary wing of the global warming movement"
(Connolley) "...rewrote Wikipedia's articles on global warming, on the greenhouse effect, on the instrumental temperature record, on the urban heat island, on climate models, on global cooling. On Feb. 14, he began to erase the Little Ice Age; on Aug. 11, the Medieval Warm Period. In October, he turned his attention to the hockey stick graph. He rewrote articles on the politics of global warming and on the scientists who were skeptical of..." continues - http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=62e1c98e-01ed-4c55-bf3d-5078af9cb409
Wikipedia banned Connolley "...from creating or editing any articles having to do with climate change..." continues - http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2010/10/21/wikipedia-bans-radical-global-warming-propagandist-editing-all-pages#ixzz2V1CCi0j7
bernie Z :
03 Jun 2013 11:35:51am
Woomera it seems to me that it was a good idea to ban a "radical global warming propagandist" from editing Wikipedia.
I read the article you posted, sorry to say it's propaganda.
The medieval warm period was not a global phenomenon.
Willie Soon & Baliunas published a paper in 2003 (which famously featured in the climategate emails) suggesting the 20th century was not the warmest.
It's worth noting 4 members of the editorial board of the publishers resigned in protest because they assessed the paper was NOT up to scratch and they believed the peer review process had been corrupted by the Journal.
That paper was immediately debunked because Soon & B used moisture related rather than temperature related data... pretty fundamental.
Also they failed to distinguish between regional and hemispheric temperatures and they used proxies not capable of the resolution they claimed.
Again in 2007 Soon co-wrote a climate paper which was published in The Journal Of American Physicians and Surgeons... hmm... strange, why not a climate journal?
The paper finds fault with nearly all of the internationally peer reviewed findings contained in the comprehensive scientific assessments of the IPCC and otherwise brings similar conclusions as the 2003 failed paper.
Michael McCracken of the Climate Institute has produced a devastating critical review of the paper here:
One of the many sins it contains is a record from the Sargasso Sea which shows no indication of uncertainties but more importantly this tiny sample is taken to be representative of the globe... Willie just keeps on making the same mistakes.
Mistakes or not, 2011 FOI documents reveal that Willie Soon got paid over $1million by Koch Bros and other oil companies who thought his work valuable.
One is left wondering whether Soon's papers were ever meant to stand. Possibly they were intended to garner a headline such as 'The MWP was global and warmer than today'
If you did your research you'd also find Urban heat island effect had no impact on climate measurements and the globe is NOT cooling.
Deniers seem to have a remarkable lack of skepticism when it comes to lobby groups paid for by big oil.
Woomera :
04 Jun 2013 10:59:48am
"...The medieval warm period was not a global phenomenon..."
How did you work that out Bernie Z ?
While yr at it Bernie Z, what say you about the rest of the wikipedia and Connolly claims ?
Lets keep in mind even wikipedia banned connolley .. for a time....
(Connolley) "...rewrote Wikipedia's articles on:
- global warming,
- on the greenhouse effect,
- on the instrumental temperature record,
- on the urban heat island,
- on climate models,
- on global cooling.
- he began to erase the Little Ice Age
- he turned his attention to the hockey stick graph.
- He rewrote articles on the politics of global warming and on the scientists who were skeptical...
continues - http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=62e1c98e-01ed-4c55-bf3d-5078af9cb409
Merilyn Haines :
02 Jun 2013 11:51:43am
Oh Tory, Tory, Tory
I see you are continuing your hate sessions against SA MP Ann Bressington, even engaging the ABC's assistance now. Why aren't you out in the sun enjoying the world beauty instead of constantly promoting forced fluoridation and bagging MO Bressington in any avenue that will have you . BTW Tory, you do know that 95 % of the world;'s population don't fluoridated their water don't you ? You do know that Dr Arvid Carsson the 2000 Nobel Prize winner for Medicien lead a groups of scientists to keep Sweden fluoride free don't you ? You do know that there are 36 human studies showing that exposure to fluoride at only modestly raised levels can lower children's IQ? You do know that over 4000 professionals including doctors, dentists have personally signed the Professionals Statement calling for the end of water fluoridation don't you ( see Fluoride Action Network ) - but please don't let these inconvenient facts get in the way of your endless rants against people who don't want to be mass medicated and against the 95% of the world who don't fluoridate - how stupid are they Tory ?
dmills :
02 Jun 2013 1:58:54pm
Point by point:
1. "you do know that 95% of the world's population ..." Science and medicine are NOT about what 95% of the population believes or does but about efficacy/evidence. 95% of the world didn't have Penicillin until some time after WW2 but that didn't mean it did not work. I think people are still allowed to smoke in over 95% of countries; - again, that doesn't mean a healthy choice is being made!!
2. Dr Carlsson's opposition was apparently based on the ethics of mass treatment, - not the efficacy. That's an political opinion he has, not a scientific conclusion. I personally believe in mass treatment such as vaccination, iodine in flour, and fluoridation based on scientific evidence that the overall effect is beneficial. You might have a different view but that's politics, - not science. Science does not care about politics. You may choose the political path that accords with some variant of hairy-chested individualism and libertarianism but it will have consequences if the science is ignored. Just bear in mind that political decisions that run against science and rational public policy will have at best, sub-optimal, and at worst, catastrophic outcomes.
3. "there are 36 human studies showing that exposure to fluoride at only modestly raised levels can lower children's IQ" Cite them please. Are they peer reviewed? How many studies find otherwise? This is known as a selective sample. It's also not substantiated the the 36 studies show anything of the kind or even exist unless you cite them to indicate their bona fides.
4. "over 4000 professionals including doctors, dentists have personally signed the Professionals Statement calling for the end of water fluoridation"
4000 is not very many out of the total number of doctors and dentists, - even if you limit it to Australia it's less than 10%. What do the other 90% think? How many of these are just graduate GPs and dentists (or even less qualified) instead of medical researchers with PhDs? Who is vetting controlling this statement? It's called a selective sample!
Karin :
02 Jun 2013 12:19:27pm
I just want to say thank you to Tory Shepherd for her excellent talk. Couldn't agree more!
Sidney Wilcox, Merimbula, NSW :
02 Jun 2013 12:22:59pm
There is little reasonable doubt that Climate Change is almost as serious an issue as a world war and needs an all nation response.
But with the other two issues surely people should have the choice to choose for themselves if they want to take a fluoride supplement and to have their own children vaccinated as these are personal issues, Climate Change is not a personal issue.
Dave :
02 Jun 2013 7:23:58pm
Vaccination is not just a personal issue.
The lack of "herd immunity" is currently killing children in Australia who are still too young to be immunised. Even amongst adults, immunisation is not 100% effective and some people have bad reactions to the vaccinations and can't have them.
These people and young children rely on enough of the population being immunised that they don't come into contact with the disease.
That's why children who aren't immunised are being told to stay away from schools.
Noel Wauchope :
02 Jun 2013 2:30:21pm
Very pleased to hear FLUORDATION being discussed here, as a very clear example of a valuable public hea;lth program being sabotaged in an irrational way.
I would like to see the anti-wind campaign scrutinised in the same way.
I would also like to see more complex question of low dose ionising radiation examined. The current political and commercial push to declare low dose ionising radiation as harmless, even beneficial, neds examination.
THs campaign is based on public health considerations (fear of public panic) , financial considertaions - governments avoiding compensation, and commercial considertaions. Not on science.
Nick Cooper :
02 Jun 2013 2:49:21pm
The enthusiasm and proportion of angry responses makes for a dectent QED on your behalf, Tory Shepherd.
You may have some unrealistic fears of your own, about the evils of the internet.
Intelligent youth is learning how to sort merde from mud more quickly and thoroughly than their elders, and I am more elderly than not these days.
Wikipedia is *a* source of facts, much as facts can also be found in the Advertiser.
Some experts in their field write/edit Wikipedia entries.
Much as I was warned off encyclopediae as being too general in senior high school and undergrad classes, no educated young person today is going to mistake Wikipedia for a peer-reviewed academic source.
On-line degrees such as MOOCs don't yet match a full tertiary education experience, but that doesn't mean everyone who seeks proved data and defensible reasoning on the internet is in a dark room, bashing away at a keyboard just Googling it (you forgot the F in JFGI).
No-one has done a study – that I know of – comparing the proportion of misinformation purveyed by talk-back radio and those aisles of notorious cable shows ;-) vs the internet, to see which purveys a greater proportion of accidental and intentional deception in their fare.
I'd guess it's a roughly equivalent proportion derived from human credulousness and innate desire for science to be wrong, not from any specific medium.
I think many people, including those otherwise respected for their learning and thinking who feared primted matter would ruin people's minds when new cohorts of people began reading for the first time en masse.
(Dare I say it?) The internet doesn't misinform people, people misinform people.
As with any new medium, there are those who thrive mentally, emotionally and socially, and those who fail to thrive.
Natural selection will always be undermining our complacency with new challenges, most often with challenges caused by our own advances in the face of previous challenges.
Lisa Bricknell :
03 Jun 2013 10:53:10am
Unfortunately, young people these days are NOT learning the distinguish between fact and fiction on the Internet and do NOT have a clear understanding about the quality of Wikipedia as a source of reliable information. As a University lecturer, I spend my days trying to teach my first years (and some more advanced students) these skills. Unfortunately the prevalence of low quality, easily available "information" tends to trump peer reviewed academic sources in most cases, because the ultimate aim of most students appears to be to get the assessment tasks done as quickly and with as little effort as possible ( it's human nature, after all). Well designed research is difficult to read and interpret, precisely because it is rigorous and designed to eliminate the confounding element of chance. People peddling poor science have no such strictures, which explains the plethora of easily accessible "information" supporting the anti fluoridation or anti- vaccination lobbies.
Diane Drayton Buckland :
02 Jun 2013 5:01:25pm
Australia wide in dental crisis after widespread high percentage fluoridation Australia wide for decades first commencing Beaconsfield Tasmania in 1953 and USA also in dental crisis after up to 67 years of water fluoridation/pollution first commencing Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1945 (also in dental crisis). It's a no-brainer - dangerously corrosive hazardous waste pollutants have no place being dumped in the peoples' water supplies & hence also contaminating entire food chain. All State Gov's. & Federal Gov. (& Councils) must cease water fluoridation (pollution) immediately & irrevocably.
Tasmania longest fluoridated/polluted State of Australia - first fluoride polluted in 1953 worst dental health and in crisis high saturation rate of fluoridation (hazardous waste pollutants) - 27th February, 2013 - Tasmania will receive an extra $12 million from the Federal Government to reduce public dental waiting lists. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-27/extra-dental-dollars-to-reduce-waiting-lists/4542450?section=tas
Note Tasmania first fluoridated in 1953 POOR ORAL HEALTH PUTTING HOSPITALS UNDER PRESSURE – TASMANIA
BY JODIE STEPHENS 26 Feb, 2012
Dr Deborah Cole is chief executive officer of Dental Health Services Victoria. http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/a-system-in-decay-20120107-1ppd0.html
Geelong - fluoridated/polluted June, 2009
GEELONG kids will have more to smile about thanks to a multi-million-dollar State Government plan to tackle tooth decay and gum disease.
Health Minister David Davis yesterday launched the $14.9 million public dental plan, aimed at improving the oral health of young people across the state. http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2013/05/29/366034_news_pf.html
REPORT WARNS $10B NEEDED TO FIX DENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM February 28, 2012 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-28/national-dental-health-opens-denticare-debate/3856134
NSW 96% 'FLUORIDATED' - Sydney since 1968 DENTAL CRISIS EXPOSES GREAT DIVIDE By Jonathan Pearlman and Gerard Ryle February 15, 2005
Public dental health in NSW is in a state of serious neglect, with some patients waiting eight years for attention and the number of children needing hospital treatment doubling over the past decade.
An Australian Example of Fluoridation Dictatorship
2007 The Australian
dmills :
03 Jun 2013 11:13:38am
Fluoride was never touted as a magic silver bullet or miracle cure. That's like asserting that people won't need doctors with all the powerful drugs we now have available. So even with fluoridation people still need to take care of their teeth and still need to visit dentists regularly. Accordingly, evidence of a dental health crisis does not mean fluoridation isn't effective, - it simply means there are people who are not getting sufficient dental care.
What are your qualifications in the field of public or dental health or pharmacology? I ask because calling fluouride a hazardous waste pollutant appears to be at odds with the opinion of dentists, public health officials and also many toothpaste manufacturers. The fact is any chemical or compound (naturally occuring or synthetic) can be toxic depending on the dosage. Even water is toxic if ingested in sufficient quantities. Vitamin A is good for us but excessive amounts of it will kill us. Many efficacious drugs are poisons if the dosage is not carefully regulated. Finally, isn't everything you eat and drink a(usually naturally occuring) chemical or compound?
Diane Drayton Buckland :
02 Jun 2013 5:02:33pm
Dentists and WHO experts have predicted a very large caries increase ('a tide of caries') after termination of fluoridation.49
Analyses of the data, however, reveal a significant DECREASE in dental caries (caries decline) after suspension of water fluoridation in Japan,49,54 in the Netherlands,55 in Prague,49,56 in the German Democratic Republic,49 and elsewhere.
Never has any real increase in dental caries been observed after water fluoridation was discontinued.
Furthermore, many fluoride tablet measures were stopped also.
In Graz23 (Austria), for instance, the dental caries of children had increased during the fluoride tablet actions in schools since 1956 and decreased after the stop in 1973. Rudolf Ziegelbecker
Peterstalstrasse 29 A-8042 Graz; Austria From 1998 full information: http://www.fluoride-journal.com/98-31-3/313-171.htm (link now dead)
Germany - Rejection of Fluoridation of Drinking Water
AS THE FIRST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD – BELGIUM PROHIBITS FLUORIDE SUPPLEMENTS July 29, 2002
But the usefulness of fluoride has been doubted worldwide for a long time already. Over the years at least 12 Nobel Prize winners in Medicine and Chemistry have warned of the associated health risks. To make children take fluoride is not only useless against caries, it is plainly dangerous. Tooth and bone decalcification as a result of fluoride even has a name - fluorosis. Fluoride is very reactive and it goes deep into the bones and cells where it is accumulated. Yes, the tooth surface becomes much harder, but the tooth itself becomes more brittle. From a lot of research it seems that fluoride causes joint problems, skeletal deformations, osteoporosis, and that it can even cause bone cancer. Also the brain cannot escape from it. Fluoride has a negative influence on the nervous system and the immune system, and in children it can lead to (chronic) fatigue, a lower IQ, learning disabilities, lethargy and depression.
Full information: http://www.nofluoride.com/BelgiumBan.cfm
Dentists have Controlled CDC's Water Fluoridation Stance for over 35 Years…
Documents released under the Freedom of Information Act show that since the 1970's, the dental health professionals in the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) have completely controlled the agency's stance supporting water fluoridation. No CDC toxicologists, minority health professionals, experts in diabetes, or others outside the Oral Health Division had any input into the agency's position.
The documents have drawn attention once again to the CDC's and EPA's fluoride safety statements, which appear at odds with current scientific knowledge.
According to the Fluoride Action Network: "Law firms are now reviewing old and new documents believed to highlight a pattern of attempts to curtail discussion
dmills :
03 Jun 2013 11:34:33am
Again, fluoridation is only one factor affecting dental health. There are many other variables. Even given an apparent improvement in dental health you'd have to consider:
1) Time lag effect. All those people you're analysing have, if they are over a certain age, been effectively dosed with fluoride anyway so you are most likely measuring fluoride's beneficial effect until the bulk of the population is undosed and that will take many decades.
2) In general you'd expect dental health and oral hygiene to improve as people use flossing, electric toothbrushes, etc. That's a confounding variable. Any measure of the effect of the presence or absence of fluoridation would need to account for this.
3) Are these studies/reports you mention peer-reviewed? Are they bona fide scientific investigations? Are they a representative selection of the current research on the topic?
4) Similar comments apply to the 12 unnamed Nobel Prize winners. Unless they've conducted studies in the field then their opinions are just ... opinions. Maybe better informed opinions than most people but still opinions unless and until they've conducted valid research into the topic, in which case they will have findings. However, if those findings go against the bulk of the published research then they are problematic unless futher supporting peer-reviewed research starts to come in.
Make mine reason :
02 Jun 2013 5:36:08pm
Good to see that so many people listen to Ockam's Razor, people of all views. That's humanity's best hope for success, if you don't listen to all knowledge you won't ever change your mind, so it's good to see so many people pushed to react.
Tory is quite right, science is the only self-regulating system.
It is so good to see the light shone on dark corners. Well done Tory and OR.
Rod Stevens :
02 Jun 2013 10:38:56pm
OK, Mr Williams promotes the poo pooing of an elected peoples re-Representative named Hon Ann Bressinton MLC. Today Mr Williams' creditable reality expert is supporting fantasy land materiel called "Dr Who" on her Twitter account. Please pick up your game ABC. I pay Aunty with my taxes, and I assume Aunty pays Mr Williams. We tax payer require value for our money. (screen shot saved)
dmills :
03 Jun 2013 3:14:18pm
Since when are elected politicians impervious to critcism or scrutiny? Critical scrutiny of elected representatives is considered one of the essential roles of the press.
Since when does an expert's credibility take a hit because they enjoy science fiction? It does not matter if your accountant or GP likes reading Encylopaedias, Donald Duck comics, or Dostoyevsky in his original language, - so long as they are competent in their chosen profession. Similarly, a journalist's interest in Dr Who has no bearing on the degree of journalistic professionalism or ability.
How then have you established that the ABC is failing on any count?
Dan Germouse :
03 Jun 2013 3:22:34am
I actually have a science education from one of Australia's Group of Eight universities, and I'm really sick of being lectured to by toxic waste pushers who are clueless about science. I am also sick of the comparison of climate science with fluoridation "science". Climate change is extremely serious, and those who discredit the science by associating it with fluoridationist nonsense should be ashamed of themselves. Since when did being a writer for one of Rupert's rags make someone an authority on science? Does Tory Shepherd know anything about randomised controlled trials, ecologic studies, the extreme variability in individual fluoride exposure, or the concept of margin of safety in toxicology? No, I didn't think so.
dmills :
03 Jun 2013 3:37:39pm
I think you'd need much, much more than a BSc from any university to be able to back up an assertion that thousands of dentists and public health officials, plus the governments of many first world countries are "toxic waste pushers".
And try this thought experiment. Assume that you are stating the absolute truth. The corollary of that is it leaves you with a massive international conspiracy (involving how many resaechers with faked results in how many peer-reviewed journals?) to poison millions of people. Does that sound likely or even possible? If you think it is then why would it be the only massive international conspiracy? How many massive international conspiracies have been uncovered?
Sandra Camm :
03 Jun 2013 7:29:12pm
Thank you Dan for a balanced argument. Since Geelong was fluoridated in 2009 and myself being chemically sensitive, I buy in my drinking,cooking water -however have to shower in it and am suffering to a degree. Cannot afford whole house filter. So you see there are many such as I suffering for the sake of helping those who cannot afford to keep dental health a priority. I would be more than happy to sacrifice some of my pension toward "fluoride" tablets for these people, meanwhile please take it out of the tap water, so that people aren't suffering! THERE IS NO RISK ASSESSMENT BEEN DONE.
MrsKytro :
03 Jun 2013 10:56:27am
Well said.
Unfortunately, it's not just limited to youth. Or non-scientists. Also, I do believe a large amount of the comments here both prove your point and make me lose faith in society.
Australia is a developed, wealthy nation with a fantastic quality of life. So, rather than finding enemies where none exist, why not focus efforts on solving real issues like poverty and social equality? I suspect those issues are 'too big' for the average person to comprehend, while the addition of a chemical to drinking water is easy to be scared of and complain about.
Observer :
03 Jun 2013 12:01:26pm
Re Tasmanian dental health: Last I heard it was poor because of over-brushing, in fear of the reports that their teeth were poor because of inadequate dental hygene. Be careful what the criticisms actually are based on, not just that they are critical.
Flouride, in the small quantities used, is beneficial to the majority, and majority rules in a democracy.
Vaccines may have bad results for a few, but because the majority benefit, they are used. Like cars, aeroplanes etc. We tollerate a few bad outcomes to protect the majority's interest-sad but true.
Richo :
03 Jun 2013 6:25:33pm
Hear hear! I agree entirely with the substance of Tory's article. I have also become increasingly worried about all the pseudo-science clap-trap that gets bandied about these days.
You don't have to look very hard to find people that believe all sorts of nonsense that they're not shy about pushing onto others.
There really needs to be a push in schools and probably a public education campaign to warn people about irrational beliefs and anti-science types. There's no question that these groups are causing immense damage to society. What a shame that there isn't yet a vaccine for stupidity.
It's probably a pity that organised religion has become nothing more than a curio because it used to keep the deranged with something to occupy their minds. Now they have a lot of time and their stupidity is becoming weaponised by the Internet.
Maybe they can form a Tea Party or something so at least we can more easily identify them.
Jackie D :
04 Jun 2013 6:11:17pm
Yes, don't believe everything you read on the 'net (or for that matter in newspapers, the tv and radio):
Several clinical and experimental studies have reported that F induces changes in cerebral morphology and biochemistry that affect the neurological development of individuals as well as cognitive processes, such as learning and memory. F can be toxic by ingesting one part per million (ppm), and the effects they are not immediate, as they can take 20 years or more to become evident. Effects of the fluoride on the central nervous system. Valdez-Jiménez L et al. Neurologia. 2011 Jun;26(5):297-300. doi: 10.1016/j.nrl.2010.10.008. Epub 2011 Jan 20.
Andrew Frederick :
04 Jun 2013 8:19:52pm
Who is this writer Tory Shepherd! She will be saying that the Toot' Fairwy does not exist. But I know that the Toot' Fairwy exists because I used to get sixpence for every toot' that I lost and was put into a glass overnight.
Will Tory Shepherd be saying that there is a Flouride Fairwy out there. I just think it is the Adelaide water!
Steve Wylie :
05 Jun 2013 2:24:36pm
Excellent balanced article worthy of this forum. Of course, those that have lost the evidence-based track will whine when the error of their ways is pointed out, but they are always whining. I encourage you to cover other areas where the "new-agers" frequent, like homeoipathy, GM food aversion, creationism, biodynamic farming etc. Keep up the good work!
qwerty :
06 Jun 2013 10:34:38pm
Also add to your list: global warming alarmists, anti-vacination advocates, anti roo cullers, Great Barrier Reef doomers, wind turbine sickies and those against nuclear energy & coal seam gas. Plenty of emotion but very little evidence.
Disappointed :
06 Jun 2013 3:15:29pm
I don't doubt young Shepherds sincerity however for a science discussion I couldn't help noticing the absence of any data to support her assertions.
Dissapointed :
06 Jun 2013 6:04:55pm
Thank you ABC for publishing the informative comments. I am no longer disappointed. It's there to see for anyone who wants to see what is real.
Dave :
07 Jun 2013 1:53:38pm
Thanks you Tory Shepard. Very well put. How do we know the truth? How do we separate fact from fiction? are questions I have been asking myself a lot lately. It is not easy. I have a science degree and study philosophy, which enables me to use scientific knowledge and detect fallacies to give me some protection. But it is easy to get caught. There are some very clever people around who wallow in the art of deception. The attack on science and the misrepresentation of what it is in much of the MSM today I find offensive and very worrying.
Con Giakamozis :
07 Jun 2013 8:18:10pm
Is it appropriate to ridicule dissent in order to further a government agenda? Moreover, if a significant portion of the population disagrees, should they be forced to comply? If YOU willingly choose to suicide, should law allow you to oblige others to do the same?
From this article, it seems ABC's never heard of (a) Freedom of Choice, (b) Freedom of Speech, (c) Tolerance for opposing views.
As such compulsory forced medication of Fluoride, and Vaccination upon the population (and forced silence in opposition of government policy) is - according to ABC - some kind of mandate. I assure you that, AT LAW, IT IS NOT.
By publishing this, the ABC (unwittingly?) becomes a tool of propaganda, and a tool for tyranny.
Alexander Cranford :
07 Jun 2013 9:57:54pm
Your latest guest shows disdain for controversy of scientific issues. Controversy is at the heart of science. It is what propels further research and greater enlightenment. Science is not about dogma but about scrutiny, verification and asking those curly questions about ideas claims and theories. Look up Karl Popper and the scientific method.
When it comes to climate change there are flaws on both parties' arguments. I am particularly unimpressed by Greenpeace's claim that when a tree is cut down the carbon stored in the tree is released back into the atmosphere. I can understand that when a tree is growing there would be a net absorption of carbon as this carbon would go into growing a bigger tree, but once a tree matures I fail to see how there can be a continued net absorption of carbon. My experience of dealing with Greenpeace is they prefer to lecture rather than engage in any actual discussion.
Where there is even more intellectual dishonesty is in the area of dietary fat. This is largely due to commercial imperatives. Time and time again I see warnings about saturated fat but these is little scientific evidence to back up such claims. My research shows that it is trans fat found in margarine and hardened vegetable oil that is unhealthy but there are relatively few warnings about trans fat. There is substantial percentage of the adult population who have found official nutrition advice less than satisfactory and have done their own research. Much official nutrition advice is not based rigorous peer reviewed academic research but based on religious beliefs of equating pleasure with sin. In recent years there have been scientific studies showing both chocolate and peculated coffee to be good for you. I am not sure where the idea of a low salt diet being healthy came from but there was a study on The Health Report a few years ago suggesting that in overall health terms a low salt is in fact unhealthy. This rang true with me as I have had problems with menieres disease.
Can your guest point to any epidemiological studies showing fluoride added to drinking water leading to better dental health?
dmills :
29 Jun 2013 7:18:32pm
"Can your guest point to any epidemiological studies showing fluoride added to drinking water leading to better dental health?"
But that is exactly why governments started fluoridation in the first place!!! Studies showed and still show populations with and without fluoride have significantly different dental health. And the populations with better dental health have ... fluoridated water!!!
And with respect to climate change, once again, studies show that carbon is an increasing % of the atmosphere (and oceans) and the climate is warming.
On both counts the peer-reviewed research is in and no amount of controversy or web surfing "research" or discussion by non-scientists is likely to provide viable alternative explanations.
saster :
12 Jun 2013 10:03:22pm
I'm with you. But please don't peddle over-generalized platitudes about post-modernism. It undercuts your case.
Allan Gardiner :
17 Jun 2013 3:07:44am
Physician Peter Mere Latham once said, "Poisons and medicine are oftentimes the same substance given with different intents." And different dosage, he might have added. Determining the right amount -- neither too much nor too little -- is crucial as the effect of a medicine varies by age, weight, sex, etc. of the recipient. That's where posology comes in.
To every action exists its opposite, ergo, if the process of fluoridation is rightly considered markedly beneficial in preventing dental caries, then perhaps it's to be veritably viewed as being fully pulpabl..err..culpable where many people's obesity -- especially morbid -- is concerned. Those people who, on a regular basis, sprinkle Big Macs on their roasts before tucking in, and are known to have decidely dined so since Adam was in knee pants, usually have the finest set of their very own teeth with which to carry out this gargantuan task, thanks to, you guessed it...fluoride. The only way out for these fine-fanged folk who are unable to see the error of their widening-waistlined-ways, would be if something was able to get to the root of the problem by gumming-up the works a t_ad hoc, per pulling the product perhaps...and sans any lo[w]cal fl_an'aesthetic either!
David Cohan :
19 Jun 2013 11:42:57pm
Anti-Fluoride & Climate Change
Hi Tory,
While I agree with what you say,
some advice, which I expect is going to hurt:-
Please think very carefully before you again join Anti-Fluoride with Climate Change.
As a result of World War II my parents experienced FAMINE. And maybe for that reason I FEAR FAMINE. It seems to me that a big part of our problem is our food supply has been too secure and we have become complacent about food. And where there was/is FAMINE in the world it has afflicted powerless people so we haven't really been threatened ourselves.
The not even worst case scenario is:
rising global population, falling global food production, and resulting desperate populations with access to thermonuclear weapons.
To put it at its most brutal –
Climate Change is an argument we HAVE TO win.
Fluoride is important, but it is NOT an argument we HAVE TO win.
From what I can see, there are an awful lot of anti-fluoride people who are at least potential allies in the campaign against climate change, AND WE NEED every ally we can get.
Sometimes in life you "have to pick your battles" (Jim Wallace AM, retired commander in Australian Special Forces).
So I have to suggest that you concentrate your energies against climate change, and swallow hard on the Anti-Fluoride front. At least, I suggest you don't link the two. Sorry to bring bad news.
(BTW, congrats on the number of comments you generated. I believe it is a near record for OR)
Mike Burston :
24 Jun 2013 6:45:06pm
When we will we ever apply clear thinking to the public discourse on climate change? Tory Shepherd speaks of consensus and the agreement of national academies but that is not proof, it is the language of the boss. No informed person denies the existence of climate change it is the straw man arguments Shepherd repeats which are offensive.
Stripped of its climate flummery, carbon pricing is simply a poll tax.
Claudia :
22 Jul 2013 7:20:43pm
Interesting transcript,agree on many points, with the exception of some of those re fluoridation. It is useful topically, but why put it in water that is used for drinking etc? This is the issue! A shame that extremists on both sides hijack issue. There is no reason to fluoridate. improved dental health can be achieved if one brushes their teeth regularly, correctly, with toothpaste and eats foods low in sugar.. Just ask those of us who live on tank water and have low cavity rates. As usual an overreaction in an attempt to remedy poor human behaviour. Education is the key not fluoridating water supplies!
Rose :
13 Sep 2013 10:19:06pm
How come people who grew up before fluoride was put in the water tend to have rotten teeth??
Also there are lots of trace elements we need for good health - selenium for example that are toxic in other than small quantities but which we get from
Many elements or compounds are necessary for our health in tiny quantities - iether by ingestion or manufactured by our bodies which when produced in large quantities are dangerous. Flouride in the water is not dangerous. Ignorance is.
Rose :
13 Sep 2013 10:26:26pm
If there is often poor dental health - sugary foods were not so available or not available at all in the past - super sweet acidic fizzy drinks and feeding kids sweets as their teeth are growing etc etc.
Lucia Tilyard :
16 Dec 2014 1:23:16am
Thanks for that. As one who has attempted to unsuccessfully, persuade others, that no, the Queen doesn't eat babies, and that a lot of people really aren't reptiles, I know precisely what you are talking about. The above two examples, may be some of the more extreme ones on the internet, but however implausible they might seem, there are actually quite a number out there who believe these things are true! Yes it is something I worry about. If people can adhere so tightly to these ideas, what will they do with the ones that are more probable, but never the less false? The fact is, that people are making important decisions based on fallacious ideas. I've come to the conclusion that posts should be vetted for veracity. While internet people are saying that television news is not trustworthy, (and I do to a certain extent believe that), anything ascertained via the internet, has to be double checked before I deem it worthy of trust. For some time, I've been completely unable to know what sources to trust.


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After four difficult years, during which it faced frequent and fairly disrupting regulatory changes, the life insurance sector is slowly getting back on its feet. New business premiums for the sector grew 11.4% last year, after de-growing in the previous two years but it was Life Insurance Corporation that managed to corner much of the businessfirst-year premium collections at the state-owned insurer increased 17.6% in FY14 to R90,124 crore, following two consecutive years of de-growth. Private sector players as a whole continued to struggle; they are yet to recover from the sharp drop in sales of Unit Linked Insurance Products (ULIPs) resulting from the reduced commissions for agents nearly four years ago. First-year premiums collected by private life insurers, at R29,517 crore, were smaller than the collections in the previous year and a good 25% smaller than the peak amounts mopped up in FY11. It could be a while before collections increase meaningfully, given the product suite has needed to be completely revamped following the new rules rolled out by the regulator. Moreover, selling longer-term products, as favoured by IRDA, is turning out to be much harder. However, the regulator is right in wanting to encourage buyers to stay with a product rather than trading in them, as was happening four years back. So, while there may be some pain for insurers in the short term, the right way to position insurance policies would be as long-term products.
Agents have a big role to play in convincing customers not to keeping churning but to stay invested. Over the past few years, the share of sales through agents has fallen offafter commissions were reduced. Given insurance remains a push product, however, there is probably a case for better incentivising them. The fact is that the idea of banks turning brokers might not take off. It is not hard to understand why banks are reluctant to take on the responsibility of selling policies of all insurers given how technical the subject can be, the extent of preparedness required and how onerous the compliance can be. Since the fees are not exactly lucrative, banks wouldnt want to focus too much on the business and it would not be right to force them into it. The bancassurance channel in its current form, therefore, is probably best left untouched. Meanwhile, a hike in the FDI cap to 49% would help insurers attract fresh capital and


text:
NASA's 'Climate-Porn' Ruined By Empirical Evidence: Accelerated Warming of Global Oceans Does Not Exist
We have NASA to thank for introducing the world to climate-porn, which has become a widely accepted word of derision describing the greens' and Democrats' anti-CO2 doomsday-propaganda.
Back in 1988, NASA kicked it off with its constant disaster-laden predictions, not only in articles, but even in Congressional testimony.
NASA technocrats purposefully attempted to scare the public and policymakers with promises of skyrocketing temperatures, with Earth's atmosphere turning into Venus-like conditions and, of course, those soon-to-be boiling oceans. As the public was going to learn over the next few decades, NASA made sure no climate-porn catastrophe was left unexposed.
So after decades of NASA scare tactics what does the empirical evidence say? What about that CO2-induced accelerated warming that will cause oceans to boil?
Using the NOAA's high-resolution ocean temperature dataset, the chart above reveals the absolute non-existence of "accelerating" global warming, for all the world's oceans, and for those tropical waters that NASA predicts we will witness boiling.
Since 1988, and after gigaton upon gigaton of human CO2 emissions over the last 25 years, the ocean warming is not so much. Accelerated warming is nada. And since 1996, a year prior to the super El Nino of 1997-98, the oceans' warming trend has actually been shrinking.
In fact, the tropical oceans since 1996 are actually cooling.
Is that an indication that we should be worried about global cooling? Well, a lot of people are now thinking the unthinkable and talking about it.
Additional regional and global temperature charts.
Datasets used to create top Excel chart (for global tropics, used ocean dataset that covered latitudes from 23S to 23N). Don't know how to chart in Excel? It's easy. Go here to learn how.
If this scam was orchestrated by government insiders and global warming promoters they should all go to jail
for at least 25 years .
A forensic audit is required with an
arms length team of specialists .
I can hardly wait for you to post a link so I can watch it myself Jonny Douchey-oh!Yeah, I heard on FoxNews that for the last 50 years, every climate scientist in the world goes to a special indoctrination meeting as soon as they graduate from college.
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Sonoran Preserve approaches milestone
If Phoenix buys two parcels of state property for $24.1 million this month, the city will move closer to the halfway mark in its goal to buy 20,000 acres of land for the Sonoran Preserve in north Phoenix.
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Yi Cheng
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- Yi-Cheng Chan
- Yi-Cheng Chen
- Yi-Chung Cheng
- Yi-Cheng Ku
- Yi-Cheng Lin
- Cheng-Yi Liu
- Yi-Cheng Pan
- Yi-Cheng Tu (aka: Yicheng Tu) — University of South Florida, Tampa, FL, USA
- Cheng Yi
- Yi-Cheng Zhang
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2010 – today
- 2016
- [i5]Yi Cheng, Valery A. Ugrinovskii:
Event-triggered leader-following tracking control for multivariable multi-agent systems. CoRR abs/1603.04125 (2016)
- 2015
- [j16]Yi Cheng, Valery A. Ugrinovskii:
Leader-follower tracking control with guaranteed consensus performance for interconnected systems with linear dynamic uncertain coupling. Int. J. Control 88(8): 1663-1677 (2015)
- [j15]Ben Niu, Xudong Zhao, Xiaodong Fan, Yi Cheng:
A new control method for state-constrained nonlinear switched systems with application to chemical process. Int. J. Control 88(9): 1693-1701 (2015)
- [j14]Yi Cheng:
Forward approximation and backward approximation in fuzzy rough sets. Neurocomputing 148: 340-353 (2015)
- [j13]Chunbo Xiu, Chang Liu, Yi Cheng:
Associative memory network and its hardware design. Neurocomputing 158: 204-209 (2015)
- [c15]Shuying Li, Yurong Huang, Yi Cheng, Jinhua Yu, Yuanyuan Wang:
The theoretical and experimental analysis of ultrasound contrast agent micro bubbles: The Sonovue. BMEI 2015: 312-317
- [i4]Yi Cheng, Valery A. Ugrinovskii:
Gain-scheduled Leader-follower Tracking Control for Interconnected Parameter Varying Systems. CoRR abs/1501.06032 (2015)
- [i3]Yi Cheng, Valery A. Ugrinovskii:
Leader-follower Tracking Control with Guaranteed Consensus Performance for Interconnected Systems with Linear Dynamic Uncertain Coupling. CoRR abs/1502.04205 (2015)
- 2014
- [j12]Yi Cheng:
Existence of Solutions for a Class of Nonlinear Evolution Inclusions with Nonlocal Conditions. J. Optimization Theory and Applications 162(1): 13-33 (2014)
- [p2]Nicholas Evancich, Zhuo Lu, Jason H. Li, Yi Cheng, Joshua Tuttle, Peng Xie:
Network-Wide Awareness. Cyber Defense and Situational Awareness 2014: 63-91
- [p1]Yi Cheng, Julia Deng, Jason Li, Scott A. DeLoach, Anoop Singhal, Xinming Ou:
Metrics of Security. Cyber Defense and Situational Awareness 2014: 263-295
- 2013
- [c14]Yi Cheng, Valery A. Ugrinovskii:
Guaranteed performance leader-follower control for multi-agent systems with linear IQC coupling. ACC 2013: 2625-2630
- [i2]Yi Cheng, Valery A. Ugrinovskii:
Guaranteed Performance Leader-follower Control for Multi-agent Systems with Linear IQC-Constrained Coupling. CoRR abs/1303.2721 (2013)
- [i1]Yi Cheng, Valery A. Ugrinovskii, Guanghui Wen:
Guaranteed Cost Tracking for Uncertain Coupled Multi-agent Systems Using Consensus over a Directed Graph. CoRR abs/1309.0365 (2013)
- 2012
- [j11]Hongtu Hua, Fuzhong Cong, Yi Cheng:
Notes on Existence and uniqueness of solutions for second order periodic-integrable boundary value problems. Appl. Math. Lett. 25(12): 2423-2428 (2012)
- [j10]Yi Cheng, Fuzhong Cong, Yanchao Gao:
Notes on existence of solutions for degenerate quasilinear elliptic equations. Appl. Math. Lett. 25(12): 2429-2434 (2012)
- [c13]Yi Cheng, Mats Näslund, Göran Selander, Eva Fogelstrom:
Privacy in machine-to-machine communications A state-of-the-art survey. ICCS 2012: 75-79
- 2011
- [j9]Yi Cheng:
The incremental method for fast computing the rough fuzzy approximations. Data Knowl. Eng. 70(1): 84-100 (2011)
- [j8]Yi Cheng, Duoqian Miao:
Rule extraction based on granulation order in interval-valued fuzzy information system. Expert Syst. Appl. 38(10): 12249-12261 (2011)
- [j7]Yi Cheng, Duoqian Miao, Qinrong Feng:
Positive approximation and converse approximation in interval-valued fuzzy rough sets. Inf. Sci. 181(11): 2086-2110 (2011)
- [c12]Yi Cheng, Mingxia Xie, Jianzhong Guo:
Mapping Data Classification Based on Modified Fuzzy Statistical Analysis. WISM (2) 2011: 204-210
- 2010
- [j6]Qinrong Feng, Duoqian Miao, Yi Cheng:
Hierarchical decision rules mining. Expert Syst. Appl. 37(3): 2081-2091 (2010)
- [j5]Qinrong Feng, Duoqian Miao, Jie Zhou, Yi Cheng:
A novel measure of knowledge granularity in rough sets. IJGCRSIS 1(3): 233-251 (2010)
2000 – 2009
- 2009
- [c11]Jingxuan Wu, Yi Cheng, Yanyan Liu, Xue Liu:
Using Web-Analytics to Optimize Education Website. ICHL 2009: 163-174
- 2008
- [j4]Demin Wang, Yi Cheng, Yun Wang, Dharma P. Agrawal:
Nonuniform Deployment Prolongs Lifetime of Wireless Sensor Networks. Ad Hoc & Sensor Wireless Networks 5(1-2): 137-160 (2008)
- [c10]Qinrong Feng, Duoqian Miao, Yi Cheng:
An Approach to Knowledge Reduction based on Relative Partition Granularity. GrC 2008: 226-231
- 2007
- [j3]Yi Cheng, Dharma P. Agrawal:
An improved key distribution mechanism for large-scale hierarchical wireless sensor networks. Ad Hoc Networks 5(1): 35-48 (2007)
- [c9]Yi Cheng, Duoqian Miao, Qinrong Feng:
A Novel Approach to Generating fuzzy Rules Based on Dynamic Fuzzy Rough Sets. GrC 2007: 133-
- [c8]Xueping Zhang, Jiayao Wang, Mingguang Wu, Yi Cheng:
A Novel Spatial Clustering with Obstacles Constraints Based on Particle Swarm Optimization and K-Medoids. PAKDD 2007: 1105-1113
- 2006
- [c7]Yi Cheng, Dharma P. Agrawal:
Distributed Pairwise Key Establishment in Wireless Sensor Networks. PSC 2006: 54-60
- [c6]Yi Cheng, Dharma P. Agrawal:
Energy Efficient Session Key Establishment in Wireless Sensor Networks. ICWN 2006: 136-142
- [c5]Demin Wang, Yi Cheng, Yun Wang, Dharma P. Agrawal:
Lifetime Enhancement of Wireless Sensor Networks by Differentiable Node Density Deployment. MASS 2006: 546-549
- [c4]Yi Cheng, Dharma P. Agrawal:
Improved Pairwise Key Establishment for Wireless Sensor Networks. WiMob 2006: 442-448
- 2005
- [c3]Yi Cheng, Dharma P. Agrawal:
Efficient pairwise key establishment and management in static wireless sensor networks. MASS 2005
1990 – 1999
- 1999
- [c2]Yi Cheng, Arne Norefors:
Token Based Authentication for Handover Security. Communications and Multimedia Security 1999: 231-246
- 1997
- [j2]Yi Cheng, Thomas W. Karjala, David M. Himmelblau:
Closed Loop Nonlinear Process Identification Using Internally Recurrent Nets. Neural Networks 10(3): 573-586 (1997)
- 1995
- [c1]Yuan Yan Tang, Hong Ma, Dihua Xi, Yi Cheng, Ching Y. Suen:
Extraction of reference lines from documents with grey-level background using sub-images of wavelets. ICDAR 1995: 571-574
- 1994
- [j1]Yi Cheng, Bart L. R. De Moor:
Robustness analysis and control system design for a hydraulic servo system. IEEE Trans. Contr. Sys. Techn. 2(3): 183-197 (1994)
Coauthor Index
data released under the ODC-BY 1.0 license; see also our legal information page
last updated on 2016-05-25 00:56 CEST by the dblp team


text:
Player Profile:
|Other Position:
|Irvine, Calif.
|High School:
|Irvine HS
|High School
PR in the 100m is a wind-aided 10.76, while his best legal mark is 10:82 from the Orange County Championships where he took second ... a Southern Section finalist in the 100m and 200m ... top 200m time is 22.26 ... anchored the 4x100m relay to a school-record 42.48, as well as a member of the school-record-setting 4x400m relay (3:20.23) ... received his school's Artist's Award. Personal: Born July 4, 1993 ... parents are Bejan and Mojgan Shahbahrami ... has a younger sister, Katiana ... enjoys cartooning and producing hip-hop music ... became an Eagle Scout during the summer of 2011 ... undeclared major.
Track & Field Videos:
Track & Field Photos:


text:
Reload the page and try again.
Campus Housing:
The residence hall and dorm rooms themselves are adequate although nothing special. It's always kept very clean but there are things I wish the residence hall had, like more kitchen equipment. I have come to love my particular residence hall though because of the people who live in it.
Party Scene:
Alcohol is always available and themes are interesting. I'm not much of a partier though.
Local Area:
There is a nice section of town with charming boutiques and very nice quality restaurants as well as larger stores such as Macy's. The college campus is beautiful and very nice, but the rest of the town is nothing special. The people of Walla Walla are not ones that I share many political views with and men have a rude habit of honking at women.
Health & Safety:
More needs to be done about sexual assault. But this is a problem on most campus' and Whitman is more conscious than many school. But even still, things need to change.
Party Scene:
Mostly greek, but indie house parties are great when they happen. They are inclusive and generally well orchestrated. It's easier when you are greek to find parties, however.
Off-Campus Housing:
The houses are good but the process of getting a house is stressful
I got a pretty good aid package, but according to our poor economic diversity rankings, this is clearly not the case for many.
Party Scene:
Very little weeknight partying, but there's usually something going on Thurs-Sat. Academics come first, though, and parties die out almost completely during midterms/finals.
Local Area:
The wine industry is fantastic, and there are some other fairly random gems in other areas (world renowned dance, great art studios, etc) but there is little accessible to the lower and middle class residents.
Guys & Girls:
Solid hookup culture but a lot of Whitties do end up marrying each other.
We were recently named as one of the least diverse private schools in the US, and it's obvious when you walk around campus.
No matter your major, you're going to be challenged both intellectually and with a heavy workload.
The closed door alcohol policy (alcohol is fine so long as you aren't disruptive, unsafe, and it's behind a closed door) along with full support of residence staff and the student health center lead to a very safe environment for alcohol use, as nobody's afraid to get help when they need it.
If you are a student that the school REALLY wants, they will find a way to fund your tuition. They offer need-based aid and many merit-based grants/scholarships.
Local Area:
Walla Walla is surrounded, for at least 30 miles in every direction, by rolling wheat fields. The Wallowa mountains are roughly 30 miles to the South and East, and is a reservoir on the Eastern edge of Walla Walla that turns into a river that runs directly through the middle of the town. These can afford for some beautiful scenery.
Varsity sporting events are usually well attended (depending on the sport, of course). Club sports teams, such as ultimate frisbee, cycling, and skiing, are well-funded by the college and tend to have many active participants. Intramural sports play a very large role on campus; a large percent of the student body participates.
Health & Safety:
Campus security is there when you need them but they are not overbearing. The security workers are friendly and very helpful should you ever need assistance/directions. There are very few instances of altercations that would require them. I feel very safe on campus.
Campus Housing:
Residents halls are very clean, residents tend to be friendly and outgoing, RAs/RDs are genuinely considerate, cool-headed helpful
Campus Housing:
All of the dorms are nice, and the interest houses are awesome.
Health & Safety:
I always feel safe. I have never had to worry about anything.
There is a great athletic scene, but outside varsity sports, it's all in good fun and super low-stress.
Guys & Girls:
Everyone gets along well, and everyone has that easy going Northwest vibe.
Local Area:
It's a cute town, a nice place to live. There are things to do.
I haven't declared a major yet, but I'm sure it will be great.
The professors are so knowledgeable and challenge you to do your very best.
{{review.SectionLabel}} at {{review.EntityName}}:
Sorry, there are no reviews.
Though Whitman has had its ups and downs, overall, most students have absolutely loved it and feel there is no possible college better for them. Many warn that it does take some adjusting (especially with Walla Walla being less metropolitan than what some are used to), but of course, that's a large part of what college itself is, no matter where you are. At Whitman, it's challenging to adjust to the environment; if you find something drastically contrasting to what you're accustomed to before college, perhaps more so than it would be at other schools closer to larger cities. In general, most students have found they need to make a larger adjustment of some kind to Whitman's environment, but most have loved their experiences once they found a comfortable niche.
Many seniors find it difficult to leave Whitman because of the bonds they create with people there, be it with students or professors. Whitman also has a very strong and supportive network of alumni, which is indicative of the bond many people have with Whitman. Several students feel they've grown in many positive ways by being put through the challenges of Whitman, and all in all, wouldn't change their experiences there for the world. It's said to be a unique and special place, unlike any environment most students have ever been in, and many think it will be difficult to leave when graduation comes. The people really make the school, and are some of the most thoughtful, well-spoken, humorous, and genuine people you'll find anywhere.
Compared against the students in the chart, you are in the:
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