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Three weeks ago Microsoft chief Bill Gates labeled those who question vaccine safety as "anti-vaccine" and that claimed that "they kill children" during an interview with CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
On Tuesday of this week, the United States Supreme Court told parents we have no recourse to a court of law for compensation when "unavoidably unsafe" vaccines harm our children (or ourselves).
February had more than its fair share of grim news concerning autism, vaccine safety and vaccination choice.
On Thursday, vaccine safety advocates responded passionately but respectfully to these events. Advocates from the tri-state area gathered in front of Microsoft's executive offices in New York City for a press conference. The advocates demanded an apology from Gates and decried the majority opinion in the Supreme Court's Bruesewitz v. Wyeth decision. Media filming the event included CNN, local CBS and ABC affiliates, and LNS.
Led by Vaccine Epidemic co-editors Louise Kuo Habakus and Mary Holland, the advocates demanded a reasoned dialogue on vaccine safety issues to further our common goal of protecting children's health, rather than name-calling and rhetoric designed to squelch debate and silence dissent.
Habakus demanded an apology from Gates for his "egregious and irresponsible statement." She admonished Sanjay Gupta and others who have the public ear for allowing Gates's statement of intolerance to go unchecked. As she said, it is, in the end, Gates and others who demand blind adherence to public health dogma who are damaging the very program they seek to guard: "In truth, the people who deny the reality of vaccine injury are the ones who undermine the nation's vaccine program. When those in power tell half-truths about vaccines, people reluctantly conclude that their trust was misplaced."
Mary Holland addressed the Bruesewitz decision. She explained that the Supreme Court removed any remaining incentive vaccine manufacturers had to make vaccines safer by shielding them from legal liability when their vaccines damage those who are required to receive them. The Court sent a clear message to parents that we are on our own when it comes to vaccine injury. Holland read powerful remarks from the Bruesewitz family, as well as from the Cedillo and Hazlehurst families, whose claims of vaccine injury were denied in administrative proceedings - the only recourse now left to those injured by vaccines. The statements can be read in full at www.vaccineepidemic.com.
They were followed by an impressive lineup of advocates. First, John Gilmore, Director of the Autism Action Network, spoke about the "no-choice choice" and vaccine mandates in New York state. He was followed by Lisa Rudley, an advocate who has helped hundreds of families find the right treatments to help their children. Rudley spoke about chronically ill children and asked why it is "anti-vaccine" to ask questions about vaccine safety. Next, Mary Coyle, an advocate and healthcare practitioner, spoke about our children's stolen future and the legacy of injury and damage. Katie Wright, an Age of Autism contributing editor who frequently writes about federal autism policy, was the final speaker. Holding up a picture of her own injured child, she spoke about government double-speak and the politics of autism causation.
Holland(shown speaking in photo) brought together these themes when she said:
Mr. Gates, these families, and those of us assembled here today, invite you to take a penetrating look at the "miracle of vaccines." Vaccines may indeed protect some, but they have ravaged others. We are not anti-vaccine –we are pro-safety and pro-justice. We demand an apology for your words of intolerance, and we demand that you, the medical profession, and our government respect the hallmark of ethical medicine -- free and informed consent.
At the conclusion of the press conference, Habakus attempted to deliver a copy of Vaccine Epidemic to the Microsoft offices, asking that it be given to Bill Gates. Her gesture was rebuffed.
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Thank you, Shelly, for pointing out the direct quote in which Lara Lohne had said her youngest son, who has autism, had gotten vaccines before the age of six months. As a permanent denizen of Shotofprevention.com she has claimed many times that her son had gotten no vaccines before he showed symptoms of autism, to support her case that vaccines do not cause autism. I commented on this discrepancy there today, my comment was taken down, and I have been blocked from commenting.
Winning? Duh!
"Bill Gates walked into the World Health Organization's headquarters in Geneva-for a meeting in an underground chamber where global pandemics are managed-and was greeted by bad news. Polio was spreading across Africa, even after he gave $700 million to try to wipe out the disease."
"Mr. Gates asked: "So, what do we do next?"
"On the plane, Mr. Gates strategized about what else would help win the fight, balking at one religious leader's suggestion: forced vaccinations. "Strap 'em, down, I say! Let's make it illegal" to not take the vaccine, Mr. Gates joked. Then he got serious again, citing failed attempts in the U.S. to enforce compulsory vaccinations."
Frankenkids and Vampyres - just when you think that vaccine "madness" can't get any more insane, think again. There is no end in sight! The vaccine schedules can be likened to a 4-lane "superhighway" which provides complete, unfettered access to our bloodstream, which bypasses our first-line natural immune defenses. The horror!
"At issue is how fast and how widely the GM genes can spread, and what dire consequences could arise."
"Genetic modification and release of GMOs into the environment is nothing if not greatly facilitated horizontal gene transfer and recombination. It has created highways for gene trafficking in place of narrow by-ways and occasional footpaths that previously existed."
"Scientists Discover New Route for GM-gene 'Escape'" by Dr. Mae-Wan Ho, Ph.D. on February 3, 2011.
Hi, Vanessa,
You raise some interesting issues. Just to throw my own thoughts out there:
(1) Lots of physicians just say something like, "It's time for the XYZ shot" when a mom brings her kid in for a well-baby visit. I recall my sister-in-law telling me this when her doctor tried to give my nephew the Hep A shot, which is not required for school in her state. She thought to ask, "Is this required for school?" and when the doctor told her that it wasn't (but that the doctor still recommended it), she declined. Good for my sister-in-law! but how many parents realize that doctors are only *recommending* some shots, rather than fulfilling school requirements? Perhaps some form of mandatory disclosure is in order--but it would be nice if the AAP or the AMA would get out in front of this one, and tell their doctors to be open and honest, instead of trying to slip in an extra shot.
(2) Just looking at the public school requirements (and I know there are medical and religious exemptions, but I'll call them requirements for now) for my state and the two states closest to mine (PA, NY, NJ), it's evident that there are vaccines required for daycare that are not required for kindergarten. In other words, if you stay home with your child (or have a nanny or a family member caring for him) until he is ready for kindergarten, you are not required to "make up" several vaccines, like PCV (pneumococcal conjugate) and HiB (haemophilus B influenza). Many doctors (in the seven minutes--no kidding, that's the figure--that they spend with a family during a well-baby visit) don't bother to have discussions like that. They don't ask the mom whether she's planning to put the baby in daycare; they just say, "Today's the day for the first dose of HiB." There's another area where the AMA and the AAP could exercise some real leadership, treating children as individuals and not applying a blanket policy to all of them.
(3) The non-mandatory-for-school vaccine that you highlight, HPV (Gardasil or Cervarix), is one of particular concern because it was "fast-tracked"--in other words, it was approved on an accelerated schedule. That implies that there was less time for discussion and disclosure of side effects among clinical trial participants. Merck also did something rather shady with the Gardasil trials: the company used aluminum in the so-called "placebo." It has recently come out (http://www.the-scientist.com/article/display/57933/) that the ingredients in up to 90% of placebos in clinical trials are not disclosed as part of the trial results discussion, and it appears that an increasing number of placebos are not actually inert substances. Even if a parent did the research on Gardasil, unless the parent is pretty sharp and knows how a placebo is supposed to work, some of the effects of aluminum on the human body, etc., that parent still might not properly judge the safety of this particular HPV vaccine. In this case, Merck is not playing by the rules, while still being protected by them--because it didn't hide the placebo information from the government, the company would likely not be considered liable for a "failure to warn" defect. (It seems to me that the government is stamping its approval on a product that has not been proven to be sufficiently safe, and then using that approval to deny parents of Gardasil-injured children a remedy in court. Something is not right when the FDA OK's a product tested the way Gardasil was, and then puts the entire brunt of decision-making on parents who may not know the first thing about how a clinical trial is *supposed* to be run.)
So those are my first thoughts on your second paragraph. Yes, parents are responsible for their children, but when it comes to vaccines, they are routinely misled by doctors, the pharmaceutical industry, and the US government.
Oh, and one more thing: mandated vaccines don't actually have "a great deal of research and data supporting them." For example, in NJ, the flu shot is required for daycare and public school, every year. The flu shot's safety and efficacy have always been in doubt, and recent analyses by the several investigators, including those at the Cochrane Group (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1) indicate that the flu shot may not do any good at all, at least as far as reducing influenza-related mortality. I'm afraid we'd find that the story is not that different when it comes to many of the other vaccines currently mandated. (Chickenpox, anyone?)
@Vanessa, pre-med student: Congratulations on your capacity for critical thinking. Use it while you can, because as soon as you enter medical school, you will be harshly penalized for doing so. You will, instead, be given a steady stream of pharmaceutical-based protocols, presented as "cutting-edge, scientifically-based, thoroughly-tested, safe and effective" means by which to diagnose and treat your patients. Any attempt to question these protocols will result in attempts to marginalize your "anti-scientific" stance, and you will find it more and more difficult to think rational thoughts. This is the tried-and-true methodology that has provided the medical/pharmaceutical system in America with its monopoly on health care. And it's also the reason our nation ranks 50th in overall parameters of health (via World Health Organization rankings.)
Best of luck. We hope to hear back from you in about 6 years, with news that something's changed.
Mr. Olmsted,
It is very compelling how you address the recent controversial interview with Bill Gates in regards to vaccine safety. As a pre-med student at the University of Southern California, I am very interested in vaccines and understanding the truth behind all of their effects. It is a sad fact that today, as we live in a world of instant gratification; many people are willing to accept vaccines as a 'cure' before they fully understand the research and ideas behind it. This results in far too many cases similar to the recent one discussed in Bruesewitz v. Wyeth that you referred to above. However, I cannot help to wonder who really is to blame when it comes to the negative effects of vaccinations? While some vaccinations, such as DTP and polio, are mandatory to be given to children, others, such as HPV, are not. I concur with the belief that if a state should mandate a vaccination, then the state should be willing to take responsibility for any negative outcomes. If the Bruesewitz family had no intention of vaccinating their daughter with DTP and only did so due to a requirement from the state, then the state has every right to be sued. I also completely agree with the comment you quoted from Mary Holland in which she explained that "the Supreme Court [has] removed any remaining incentive vaccine manufacturers had to make vaccines safer by shielding them from legal liability when their vaccines damage those who are required to receive them." If there are no repercussions for bad vaccines, then what is to stop companies from distributing vaccines for any disease without proper research or sufficient time to acknowledge all possible outcomes?
Yet, in regards to non-mandated vaccines such as HPV that have also resulted in paralysis, strokes and in some cases death, who is to blame for these outcomes? I do support the Supreme Courts' indirect message that you also quoted in your entry which sent a clear message to parents implying that "[they] are on our own when it comes to vaccine injury". While vaccines are made in good faith, mandated vaccines have a great deal of research and data supporting them such as the Polio vaccine, which has resulted in it being required for all children. But when new vaccines come into the market, is it not the parent's responsibility to also have a thorough knowledge of the medications and vaccination they wish to give to their children? Yes, a family doctor may recommend vaccines that have proven to be promising in a few clinical trials, but parents should not blindly follow a physicians' advice when it comes to something that has the possibility to be deadly. How do you think parents can better inform themselves about vaccines before considering giving it to their children? I believe that a great deal of harm caused by failed vaccinations can be minimized if the vaccine companies stop competing with each other to release the first vaccine for a disease, and started working to better the public. Vaccines take a great deal of time to research and it should be legally required that companies have to publish all recorded side effects and outcomes of old and new vaccines to the public. Do you believe that any form of law along these lines will ever be established? If so would this result in a larger responsibility on the parents end for the negative effects of vaccines? Or would this further justify the legal action taken against companies such as Wyeth? Overall I feel this topic will take some time before any solutions are made. Thank you for bringing this event to the attention of the blogging world.
About the "science" and vaccine injuries. There is no science to support safety and efficacy of current US vaccination schedules and vaccine combinations. NONE whatsoever! No granting institution in the US would ever sponsor such study, and we know that a study planned at the NIH to test the hypothesis linking vaccines with autism has been stopped by … the pressure from drug companies. The results of such as study are easy to predict. Such honest study would never be conducted in the present atmosphere of corporate dominance, and if it was, it would not be allowed to be published in main stream journals. Moreover, its authors would be destroyed, like dr. Wakefield by the pharma-media mob.
However, from the VAERS data we know that vaccines killed tens of thousands children in the US alone, and induced encephalitis in thousands. We also know that encephalitis leads to autism. Isn't it enough evidence of intrinsic UNSAFEY of vaccines? I agree with the comment, that we should stop talking mostly about autism, but talk instead about crippling for life vaccine-induced BRAIN INJURIES and deaths.
Current vaccination program is murder for many children, and vaccines may be compared to the weapons of mass destruction - it seems designed to be so. These are well documented facts. It is extremely appalling that unelected, corrupted to the bone CDC, HHS, and WHO bureaucrats decide about the matters of life, deaths and health of millions of children. Parents, scientists and honest physicians of the world should unite to fight with this system. This is our duty to all children.
Lara is entitled to her opinion and we were happy to have her share it here. But we don't usually go for additional comments that just repeat the same point over and over and inch into the condescending tone - Good night, friends. KS
Regarding Lara, she seems to believe Mnookin is Moses bringing stone tablets down from the mountain. Yeah, straight out of "Mount Merck."
Regarding scientific evidence, I didn't "see what I wanted to see." I DON'T LIKE what I see. I don't want to see how toxic levels of mercury were and are injected into infants, how combinations of vaccines are administered untested, and how documentation incriminating CDC officials is whisked under the rug.
And as long as so many public health administrators refuse to see these unpleasant inconvenient truths, children will continue to be injured by vaccines.
You are absolutely right, John.
Yes, and we also cannot allow them to go on pretending that they can impinge favourably on infant mortality in the developing world without greatly improving their living condtions - clean water, sanitation, nutrtion etc.
The reason vaccine manufacturers were able to get immunity from vaccine damage was because our fear of disease was/is so great that when they threatened to pull out of vaccine production, because of all the lawsuits, we begged them to continue and succeeded by providing them immunity.
The only way to change this situation is to address our fears and not allow ourselves to be manipulated.
Diseases can kill and otherwise harm. Vaccines can kill and otherwise harm. What are the long-term risks of each?
And we can't continue to let them get away with comparing mere incidence of disease that may or may not have any serious consequences with vastly under-reported, unexamined, unstudied, dismissed, and ignored vaccine reaction incidence. We also can't continue to let them get away with using developing world mortality and morbidity statistics when mongering fear in order to get vaccine compliance in the US and the rest of the developed world.
The bottom line, however, is that we parents deserve the right to choose what we feel is best for the children we love, and for whom we are responsible. No one else will be expected to care for our children if the vaccines or diseases maim them. No one else's heart will be broken like ours if they are killed or otherwise harmed.
The Power of Fear http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Scandals/2008/Feb_11_08/Scandal85.htm
The Perfect Business Plan http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Scandals/2005/Dec_23/Scandal75.htm
And They Wonder Why We Don't Trust Them http://www.vaccinationnews.com/20110118AndTheyWonderWhyGottsteinS
All the best,
I've given Lara a hall pass - as she's made her point several times. She does not believe in the autism vaccine link. There's not much more for her to say here. We appreciate the dialog.
To Jeff Keogh, Please think about this and explain it through your own scientific method: I run a nursery school in New Delhi India and up to about 1995 we had never seen an autistic child (That is for about 20 years). Then the Indian Academy of Pediatricians added many more doses of mercury containing vaccines to the schedule.That was in 2000. A few years later they compressed the schedule making it 8 mercury laden vaccines by three and a half months of age. So from 2003 we have seen kids with full syndrome autism and symptoms of autism nearly every year. One year we had three fully autistic kids and there were only about 70 kids in my school that year. In other words, it is now a never ending stream of autism. Now how do we explain this coincidence- That autism in the US began after adding more mercury laden vaccines to the schedule, and autism began in India 15 years later, when the same thing was done . And we know that "Pink Disease" which killed children in the late 1900's was caused by mercury and we know that the symptoms of Pink Disease and Autism are quite similar. I find this far more meaningful than vague sentences about "Science"
Dear Lara,
As I stated before, we have read volumes of information regarding this issue. I could never in a short post give you all the references you need to understand what you obviously do not grasp. What I WAS doing, however, was giving you a simple way to check for yourself, to see with your own eyes, that Thimerasol is still present in some vaccines, and that the CDC does not have everyone's best interest (ie. pregnant women and their babies) at heart. What you are most likely referring to when you say mercury was removed 17 years ago is the discontinuation of thimerasol FOR ANIMALS! That sure is interesting, huh? Vets stopped using it long ago for safety, but people still have it pumped into them.
My son was born in 1998. The day after he was born he was injected with 25 times the government's own safe maximum limit of mercury from his CHILDHOOD Hep B. More came later which I won't even enumerate. This is a fact as evidenced by his shot record that gives manufacturer and lot number. At that time is was simple to look up - through the manufacturer - the exact ingredients in your own child's vaccines. I won't go into the effects of mercury, or the lack of any studies on ethyl mercury, or the Verstaeten Study Phase 1, or the Simpsonwood Documents, or the fact that the CDCs numbers (1 in 110) are far behind. You simply do not understand any of these things because you've never bothered to look. If you can read and you understand what a primary source of information is, then you can find the truth. But if you refuse to even go to the pharmacy to read a flu insert with your own eyes, then you should not be discussing this, because all you bring to the table is hear-say. We've come way past that.
Allison Byrd
Great interview Mary. Thanks so much for your stellar efforts on behalf of all of us in this stew.
Hi Lara,
I have been reading the comments and have to say that you are contradicting yourself. In one comment you say:
"How do you explain to me that my son has autism but wasn't vaccinated?"
Then your next comment says:
"The fact that my youngest child wasn't vaccinated had nothing to do with me not WANTING to get him vaccinated. It was a financial issue and I wasn't able to afford the vaccines. He did eventually get his vaccinations current,"
The fact that your son was vaccinated when you initially said he wasn't is not only confusing but makes this a circular discussion and makes one wonder why you feel the need to make dramatic statements that just are not true. Also this comment:
"Parroting press releases? No, I'm not actually because I don't watch TV or read newspapers or magazines, and haven't for about 10 years or so."...
is just untrue when news is all over the Internet. Your indulging us with your opinion, peppered with some untruths, like reading 'The Panic Virus', tells everyone you are aware of the news and issues of the day. This especially, "Bill Gates echoes my own personal feelings on this issue..?"....reveals your awareness of the news and slant that you are trying to maneuver through these comments.
Another comment you made:
"It's time to accept the diagnosis, learn to love your child and move forward"..
We do love our children and are moving forward with much science, truth and faith so if you are not part of that, for whatever reason, fine and farewell, and I wish you and your child well, but you cannot stop the march of time.
Honest, Jeff, I cannot believe that you are putting forward "scientific consensus" and pretending you are talking about science. Silly. Irrelevant. People here are raising specific concerns about various aspects of vaccination and the schedule, concerns which have not been addressed by the scientific consensus. Not addressed equals no scientific consensus on the concerns. Got it?
"So: when researchers working in the field overwhelmingly agree that vaccinations are one of the safest medical interventions available to us, and that any adverse effects are orders of magnitude smaller than the diseases that they prevent, I see no good reason to disagree."
I'd like to know when the chicken pox and measles became such big bad scary diseases in developed countries with clean water, santitation and routine medical care.
Oh, and you're welcome, by the way. My sacrificial lamb has a name, and he's not too thrilled about being the collateral damage of a faulty vaccine program. I suppose he "needed" to be injured to protect "the herd," right? I'd like someone to say this shit to my face for once.
@ John Davidson
"In effect, you are just making stuff up and then saying that everyone who asks for evidence or doesn't believe you is part of some "great conspiracy" that you can provide no evidence for."
My friend, this issue .. at its core .. is about SCIENCE .. and .. SCIENCE is now joined by a majority of the US Supreme Court .. that ruled vaccines are .. "UNAVOIDABLY UNSAFE".
Indeed, the very existence of a Vaccine Court is clear evidence the vaccine industry itself openly admits it cannot survive by producing an "unavoidably unsafe" vaccine without guaranteed "product liability protections".
So .. my friend .. do you agree with SCIENCE and the US Supreme Court .. that vaccines are "unaviodably unsafe"?
Once you admit to the SCIENCE .. your own common sense should dictate those heavily invested in the manufacture, approval, recommendation and administration of vaccines .. will .. on many occasions .. act in their own self vested interests .. rather than in the best interests of our children.
In my humble opinion .. acting in their own self-interests is not a conspiracy .. it is human nature.
Jeff Keogh - let me make this simple for you.
The widening of the vaccination program in the US over the last 25 years has been broadly accompanied by increases in a wide range of disorders of the immune system, including ASD, as well as athsma, allergies, obesity and others. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ONE SINGLE STUDY INTO THE POSSIBLE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE VACCINE PROGRAM AND THE RISE IN THESE ILLNESSES. Bits of it have been looked at, but never the cumulative impact of the full schedule.
I don't know the situation in Australia, but I understand it is similar.
Recent advances in understanding of the microbiome and metagenome (look it up) provide possible mechanisms through which these illnesses may occur, and raise questions over potential low level contaminants in vaccines, and how their cumulative impact may cause chronic illness - although there are clearly other factors involved.
As for much of what you have said, to gain some perspective on science, I recommend you look at the 1895 Encyclopedia Britannica, digital copies of which are available on ebay for $10, and represent the latest thinking at the time my grandparents were at school. You will never look at 'overwhelming agreement' in the same way.
This is simple. We have legislation and legal rulings which are inequitable and unsafe and bound to lead to mischief. And this site comes under ad hominem attack for pointing it out.
Is this a quote from you or another Lara:
"My son is autistic. He will be four years old in March. He is the youngest of six children and the only one who has autism. Yet of all my children, he is the only one that DID NOT get his vaccines on schedule. His state medicaid was canceled when he was one, the last immunization he got was at 6 months (until after the developmental delays were well documented and he began the formal autism evaluation. He was going to be attending the Early Childhood Special Education preschool and that required he be immunized.)"?
The statement that the last immunization was at 6 months certainly implies that this child did receive some vaccines at a young age - very different from not being vaccinated. Many doses of vaccines would be received by 6 months of age. Please don't mislead people in order to try to convince them to see it your way.
You also seem to have an interest in health foods - are you aware that you may be able to offer help to your child through diet and vitamins alone? You do seem to access the internet and could find support groups on line that could help you find help for your son. My child demonstrated great improvement in sensory issues through diet and supplmentation.
I do find it intersting that you don't believe in the flu shot and would place your faith in Seth Mnookin, a former druggie.......
I do hope you find help for your son and support for yourself.
Who needs conspiracy theories, when you have governments legislating to protect manufacturers however bad their products, and manufacturers lobbying to have more and of the products made mandatory. That isn't a conspiracy, it is a recipe for disaster.
John Davidson
This site is built on endless commentaries on the science, its flaws, not to mention the legislative and executive bias and the way they have betrayed our children. You can take whatever view you like, but if you think the case is simple you are an ignoramus.
Mr. Gates, what is your current immunity to polio? If you were vaccinated in childhood, does that mean you are "still immune" to a polio outbreak? Have your titers been checked to determine whether you still have "protection"? Unlikely, because once children have completed their formal education in America, they are largely unlikely to continue an endless cycle of booster re-vaccination into perpetuity. Having been artificially immunized, without the implementation of long-term studies to determine length-of-effectiveness, it's anyone's guess about how long these inoculations are truly effective. If their effectiveness (at controlling clinical outbreaks) ends after, say, 10 years—or even 20, what happens next? Do they (you, in this case) become a danger to society by being under-protected? Do you endanger the 'herd' by having no individual protection? Are you a possible vector for exposing polio to children whose immune systems are too fragile to handle vaccination? (you know, the immune-compromised, such as chemotherapy recipients or children who are "too young" to receive certain vaccinations.) After all, we're now learning that outbreaks occurring in infants are being blamed on "under-vaccinated" adults in their midst. (i.e., pertussis)
Critical gaps in vaccine "science"
• Lack of placebo-controlled, double-blind studies
• Lack of long-term follow-up safety studies
• Lack of safety data for simultaneous administration of multiple vaccinations
• Lack of studies to determine length of protection from clinical outbreaks of given disease by vaccination
• Lack of proper screening prior to administration to determine susceptible individuals
Given these limitations in both safety and efficacy of mass vaccination policies, the most dangerous vectors for re-emerging 'vaccine-preventable diseases' may be the artificially-derived 'immune' populations of adults who were vaccinated as children. Since no long-term studies have been conducted to determine the length of protection afforded by a given vaccination, and knowing this form of artificially-induced immunity does not (and never claimed to) confer lifelong immunity, where is the outrage over all the under-vaccinated, un-boosted adults living among us? Most of them have never received a single booster since they left school, and since they have no naturally-acquired lifelong immunity, they are certainly more dangerous to the public than those who had naturally-occurring cases in childhood.
I am 60 years old. I did not receive a polio vaccine in the 50's. I attended public school with children who were recently vaccinated, including some who contracted polio following vaccination. During my childhood, I contracted mumps, rubella, roseola, whooping cough, scarlet fever and chickenpox. In those diseases where lifelong immunity is gained via natural exposure, I now have it. I also now have robust health: no chronic illness, no prescription drug use, no history of hospitalization.
Vaccine zealots: Stop screaming about the danger posed by the unvaccinated among us. Those who expose themselves to the diseases, acquire lasting immunity and retain lifelong protection are far less dangerous to EVERYONE than their once-vaccinated counterparts. And as much as the manufacturers of vaccines would like to force their products on every living creature—cradle to grave—the effort is lost after graduation because the captive community disappears into mainstream culture. Even into the offices of Microsoft.
Jeff Keough: You stated "The scientific method has served humanity remarkably well in the last 150 years." HOWEVER, the "scientific" method you admire so much has been abandoned the last 30-40 years when it comes to evaluating the safety of vaccines.
"Scientific" study after "scientific" study is on a single vaccine given by itself with only the pathogen antigens removed, leaving in all the other very toxic components such as aluminum hydroxide, on and on.
And on top of these worthless "scientific" studies contaminants are completely ignored (and there will inevitably some in most vaccines, but are not tested for),
On top of these worthless "scientific" studies you so admire is the fact that NONE of them evaluate the cumulative effect of so many clearly dangerous substances INJECTED into a baby's intramuscular system, bypassing completely Nature's gastrointestinal protective system.
Let's see you take the 39+ doses within 18 months, as indicated on the U.S. Immunization Chart below, and, quintuple their dose strength as you are so many times heavier than 7-pound infants. Here's the Chart: Go ahead, take them, and don't forget to take TWO flu shots that are given to a baby at 6 -7 months.
You personally can be a valid data point for a valid scientific study, and I will add your results to the other thousand pediatricians who are drafted to also take these shots at the same rate they advocate for babies. Let's get scientific.
"The trouble is Jeff scratch the surface of this and the scientists don't agree any such thing at all, but there are huge institutional pressures on them to shut up."
You see, this is the problem with all your arguments. First off, you quote no examples of this, and then you claim that the "secret conspiracy" means you can't give these examples, or any real evidence.
In effect, you are just making stuff up and then saying that everyone who asks for evidence or doesn't believe you is part of some "great conspiracy" that you can provide no evidence for.
That sounds like a conspiracy theory, John. Truly, it does. A massive conspiracy to keep the truth suppressed, etc.
I just can't come at conspiracies. I don't hold humanity in high enough regard! Always there is a weak point, and the more people involved the greater the risk of the conspiracy being exposed.
Genuine conspiracies exist, of course. It's just that they always seem to have a very short use-by date.
This conspiracy, if it is genuine, is truly a record breaker, lasting generations. No historical conspiracy has come close to that.
The trouble is Jeff scratch the surface of this and the scientists don't agree any such thing at all, but there are huge institutional pressures on them to shut up.
Hi John,
I think I have clearly stated that I am using my own time and my own equipment to contribute here. When asked for an email address to enable me to comment, I gave one of mine. That is all. Your implication that I am acting improperly is inaccurate.
The way I look at things is this:
When researchers working in the field overwhelmingly agree that the universe is expanding, I see no good reason to disagree.
When researchers working in the field overwhelmingly agree that life on earth has descended from a common ancestor, I see no good reason to disagree.
When researchers working in the field overwhelmingly agree that particles at a quantum level behave differently from objects at a macro level, I see no good reason to disagree.
When researchers working in the field overwhelmingly agree that epigenetic effects can be felt through two or more generations, I see no good reason to disagree.
So: when researchers working in the field overwhelmingly agree that vaccinations are one of the safest medical interventions available to us, and that any adverse effects are orders of magnitude smaller than the diseases that they prevent, I see no good reason to disagree.
Is that unreasonable?
Just to point out that no one has actually claimed that vaccines are an exclusive cause of autism.
It is very hard to see what your research consists of. This site has been a consistent defender of Andrew Wakefield against false claims and false findings, and it is very unlikely that you have any special knowledge or insight into the subject.
But you are eliding science with propaganda. There are plenty of opportunities here to discuss science, but if you come on here insisting that there is an unequivocal body of science showing vaccines to be safe, quite apart the US government's quiet payment of over $2b in compensation, then you plainly haven't a clue what you are talking about. $2b is the tip of the iceberg: they don't just hand the stuff out as the nauseating Bruesewitz saga demonstrates - along the line there were executive decisions which prevented the Bruesewitz's being compensated, and it is an egregious injustice. Beyond that it is a disaster and an anomaly that there is now absolutely no sanction on vaccine manufacturers to make safe products. If these are good products why do they need this protection and how can any sane person defend it? But this is what you are supporting and on Australian government headed notepaper.
nhokkanen - You apparently didn't read what I said because I've said based on my own research that I have done and my own personal experience in this that there is nothing anyone can say that will convince me vaccines cause autism. The science proving otherwise is too compelling. I am not going to continue this obviously pointless debate because you see what you want to see and find evidence to back it up. I prefer to get the facts first.
John - The fact that my youngest child wasn't vaccinated had nothing to do with me not WANTING to get him vaccinated. It was a financial issue and I wasn't able to afford the vaccines. He did eventually get his vaccinations current, but it was well after his symptoms had started to express themselves and it was so he could participate in the Early Childhood Special Education program, which by state law (as it's public school run) requires current immunizations.
To everyone else - At the time my son began to display the characteristics that eventually led me to have him evaluated for autism, I had never even heard of any potential link between vaccines and autism. Parroting press releases? No, I'm not actually because I don't watch TV or read newspapers or magazines, and haven't for about 10 years or so. News is always depressing and commercials make my teeth itch so I choose to just not subject myself to mindless, numbing stimulus like that. It wasn't until after my son's official diagnosis came down that I first heard about this 'controversy' and that was by a co-worker who had just learned she was pregnant. I learned just a few months after that, Andrew Wakefield's 'research' connecting vaccines to autism had been debunked and his license revoked and I put it behind me. Now I'm looking for information about ways that I can provide my son with more beneficial therapies at home for his more challenging autism behaviors and all I can find is information relating to this vaccine crap! I'm sick of hearing about it because I never believed it especially since my son developed autism without these culprit vaccines. Am I stating that vaccines don't cause injury period? No, I'm not, but they DO NOT cause autism. The only way a vaccine would cause a reaction is if the child was allergic to a compound in the vaccine and had a reaction or perhaps they already had a weakened or a compromised immune system. It does happen,it's rare but there are some children that may become injured by vaccines, but vaccines don't and never did cause autism and that needs to die now so the children we love can get real help. If I need to begin my own foundation to fight against these people I will do that. I want my son to have a chance at a future, these people aren't going to see that he can get it unless they let this go and look somewhere else!
Hi again John,
I haven't said anything in my posts here that is untruthful or contradictory; perhaps I've been unclear. What is it that you need me to elucidate upon?
I have been censored in the past for presenting a dissenting opinion. I had been expecting the same. I'm delighted to note that every single post of mine this time has appeared on this page. Perhaps there has been a change in moderation policy, which I would applaud. In any case, I would like to thank whoever is moderating here.
How do you arrive at the conclusion that my view is worthless? I rather think that my opinion is well grounded. The scientific method has served humanity remarkably well in the last 150 years (notwithstanding the political misuse of some of its fruits). I don't see why it makes sense to accept most of it, but to reject one area of it.
As far as views go, it seems to me that I have quite a solid foundation for mine.
The numbers thing is, as you rightly say, a different issue altogether. The autism-vaccination link movement appears to be losing traction. Why? If the evidence for a link is irrefutable, why (as you see it) is public opinion increasingly rejecting it?
You also ask why I'm sticking my bib in if I think the numbers are falling.
That's easy. I have three kids whom I love dearly. I want to protect them as best I may.
What are we to make of what you are saying in your last three posts? You twice make the claim that you would have been censored if you had attempted to say anything about the science, and then tell us that you don't know anything about the science but are happy to defer to the consensus - so actually your view is worthless and it is all about numbers. But it is not clear why - if we are that insignificant - why you would bother. I should also add that though we do not publish people's email addresses on AoA that the address you are using is an Australian government one.
How credible is it, given your views on vaccination, that you left one of your children unvaccinated? Unfortunately, your general ignorance of the topic has already been demonstrated.
Lara Lohne - You need to do some "actual thinking" rather than parrot press releases.
Mercury is still in vaccines. Read their package inserts. Pregnant women are getting flu shots with 50,000 parts per billion of mercury, which binds preferentially to brain and nerve cells. Studies show Thimerosal damages neurons and immune function at 20 to 40 ppb.
Correct your verbiage. One word is "causal." Not "casual," like your cavalier attitude toward infants, toddlers, soldiers and myriad others injured by vaccines. Google images for "Ian Gromowski." You'll never forget that little boy's photo.
Read the book "Vaccine Epidemic." It was written by a large group of PhD's, medical professionals and attorneys, not one former heroin addict relying on spin and omission.
Every day well-intentioned people like you try to save the world by challenging vaccine safety advocates who've spent years reading peer-reviewed medical studies, FOIA documents, lab test results, and investigative reports detailing how government and industry are working to conceal the vaccine/autism link. All you succeed in doing is exemplifying the ignorance and denial that allow children to keep getting injured by vaccines day after day, year after year.
Hello, Lara...
Ummm... Do your research, Honey. The thimerisal was at full strength and on the shelf well into 2002 plus. It was never recalled. Perhps you are unaware of the facts on this and need to do some research yourself rather than rely on inacurate data from inaccurate journalists. Unfortunately the newsmedia never goes there. Not sure why... if they are told to or if they are just ignorant. I'm hoping they are ignorant.... like you, on this matter. Please research it. Not trying to start a fight or anything, but you really should be up to date on this if you want to dialogue.
Hi again John,
The adequacy of my proponency(?) is not relevant. Whether I'm a brilliant or abysmal communicator has no bearing on the facts.
As for those, I'm quite content to go with the scientific consensus. It's not infallible, but it's the closest thing we have to it. I'm no expert, so what else am I to do but accept the judgment of the majority opinion of experts?
Twyla - I do know what I'm talking about. And this issue touches my own life personally and there isn't anything any of you can say that will convince me vaccines cause autism. Study after study has proved otherwise. My own personal experience proves otherwise. How do you explain to me that my son has autism but wasn't vaccinated? He's my 6th child, born 8 years after my next youngest. All my other 5 were vaccinated on schedule, all of them would have received vaccines with thimerosal in them, and yet... they are neurotypical. Again, we aren't talking about the optional flu vaccine. I've never gotten a flu vaccine and I honestly don't care if they do contain thimerosal or not even if I did, because ethylmercury in the trace amounts that are used to keep the vaccines safe from contaminates is insignificant compared to the toxicity of methylmercury (two different substances by the way) you would get from eating a can of tuna. How many people have you seen eat tuna and then fade into autism? My guess is probably not many. The point here is childhood vaccines, MMR, DPT, Polio, HIB and Hep B, which are DEADLY DISEASES, and these zealots honestly believe they cause autism. Sorry, I don't buy it because if that were the case, I think more children would have autism then already do, especially since the number of children being vaccinated has dropped drastically over the past two decades since you've all be spouting this rubbish, but the number of cases of autism continues to rise. It's something else causing it and we need to focus on finding out what that is. Read 'The Panic Virus' and enlighten yourself. It's time to find a REAL cause and let this dead horse go. My son suffers just the same as these other children do, but focusing on a wish instead of shifting that focus toward something that can provide real answers is hurting everyone, including your own children. The longer it takes for us to find a cause, the longer it's going to take before the rates stop to increase and the harder it will be to find effective treatments. Do I believe autism can be cured? No, I don't so don't try to sell me any of your special diet food or supplements. There are other possibilities out there and since this vaccine issue has been beat to death it needs to drop so we can move our attention to where it can do some real good and help everyone whose life is touched by this. There is no scientific backing for this case and my own personal experience tells me it's not right. It's time to accept the diagnosis, learn to love your child and move forward toward a solution that will work and be accepted by everyone.
Hi John,
I don't remember sneering. I apologise if I came across that way. What I did want to do was demonstrate the evident lack of support in the community for the vaccine-autism hypothesis, and to do it in a way that wouldn't have my comment summarily censored as has happened in the past.
You are correct - it was not an open comment. Experience shows that open comments are difficult to get published here.
BTW, I am not an Australian Government official, and nor have I said anything in my capacity as an employee of the AAD. I am at home on my privately owned computer, and expressing my personal opinions.
Lara Lohne
You obviously have no idea of the history of this matter and are making false claims off the top of your head. The issue of removing mercury from the vaccines was not even broached till 1999, but you are saying it was all removed in 1994!
I am glad we agree you were trolling. Your only point now is that one of the people who attacked you did not publish their name (which is permitted within site rules) but you have nothing else to say in your defence, and you are not a very good proponent of the case that vaccines are adequately safe.
Alison - I'm not sure what the reference to kool aid is about, I've never liked that stuff. I don't get flu shots because I don't think in my case it's necessary. I don't get sick very often and I'm not concerned about getting the flu every couple years or so. And if I understand these people's stance, they aren't talking about the annual, optional flu vaccine being the culprit in autism anyway so your point is irrelevant. Childhood vaccines haven't contained thimerosal for 17 years. Yet autism continues to rise. If thimerosal were to blame, don't you think the rates would drop instead of increase? It isn't that difficult to figure out, it just requires actual thinking. Now might be a good time to try it...?
To the person who will not use their name:
You are correct in that my behaviour could be construed as trollish. There seems to be, among some commenters, an aversion to facing up to reality, and I hope that by highlighting certain facts I am able to address that.
A direct approach has been fruitless on this site in the past - my posts have not seen the light of day - so an alternative method was called for.
It seems clear to me that there is no longer (if there ever was) broad support for the vaccine-autism link among the general population. What must the numbers be in the NY area for people who have children on the autism spectrum? Tens of thousands?
Have a look at the photo heading this article. Where are the people? There is a reflection in the window of the space behind the photographer - and it shows people just walking past.
That is what needs to be addressed by the vaccine safety (as you call it) community.
Lara Lohne, you don't know what the heck you are talking about.
Lara Lohne--
If I proved you wrong, would you apologize to parents with injured children? Would you accept that you've been lied to? Would you rethink your stance?
If I had a nickle for every time I've heard the false statement that thimerasol was removed from vaccines long ago, I might be able to buy all the therapy my son needs to heal from his mercury poisoning. I know if I say to you that Thimerasol is still in 90% of the flu shots in the U.S., you'd never believe me. But do you have the guts to go to ANY pharmacy where they are giving flu shots and ask to see the package insert with the ingredients? Odds are great that you will read the word Thimerasol for yourself. And lets just pretend that Thimerasol is harmless (which is really like pretending that a pedophile is harmless to your child - absurd). You still think vaccines are always safe? I'm quite sure you've bought into the myth that all pregnant women should get the flu shot. Did you think THAT had ever been studied? Keep reading that insert. You'll find it says in black and white that there has never been safety studies for the flu shot on pregnant women. Some of them even plainly say the manufacturer has no earthly idea what effects the flu shot has on a fetus. How do you square that with the CDC's recommendations? All that info from a little package insert. The intelligent people here have read REAMS of primary documents!!!! You really should read more yourself and stop mindlessly listening to those with an agenda who are telling you what to think. I'd suggest you start with those studies that you keep talking about, but obviously have NEVER READ! You'll find them at fourteenstudies.org. I'll be waiting for your reply.
Allison Byrd - Mom to Noah - DEVASTATED BY VACCINES!
One of the biggest mysteries is how the smartest, most successful and fortunate people can be so wrong about vaccines. Confronting this mystery, many are moved to conspiracy theories: a grand plan to soft kill the population. But that makes no sense in that Bill Gates, the President, the pharma executives, doctors, and other opinion makers vaccinate their own children. The answer is not conspiracy. It is the sheeple instinct, blind ambition, greed and any one of these or all three that convinces people that to protect health we need to inject malefics and genetically modified viruses into newborns.
you are absolutely right. Thanks for bringing up the important study of polio in i.m. vaccinated children. Here is another study from Africa, which shows how by manipulating vaccine order one can selectively kill more girls. (Generally the VAERS data show that vaccines kill more boys than girls, except for HPV vaccines, which were designed precisely to kill and injure girls). How convenient for Bilderberg's depopulation agenda. By the way in the US, DPT-IPV vaccines are often given after soon after the MMR or simultaneously.
Lancet. 2003 Jun 28;361(9376):2183-8.
Differences in female-male mortality after high-titre measles vaccine and association with subsequent vaccination with diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis and inactivated poliovirus: reanalysis of West African studies.
Aaby P, Jensen H, Samb B, Cisse B, Sodemann M, Jakobsen M, Poulsen A, Rodrigues A, Lisse IM, Simondon F, Whittle H.
Projecto de Saúde de Bandim, Danish Epidemiology Science Centre, Apartado 861, Bissau, Guinea-Bissau. firstname.lastname@example.com
Comment in:
Lancet. 2003 Jun 28;361(9376):2169-70.
BACKGROUND: Females given high-titre measles vaccine (HTMV) have high mortality; diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP) vaccination might be associated with increased female mortality. We aimed to assess whether DTP or inactivated poliovirus (IPV) administered after HTMV was associated with increased female-male mortality ratio.
METHODS: In three trials from West Africa, 2000 children were randomised to HTMV or control vaccine at 4-5 months of age; a second vaccination was given at age 9-10 months (standard measles vaccine). Children in high-titre groups were given IPV or DTP-IPV. Another 944 children received HTMV as routine vaccination in Senegal.
FINDINGS: When we compared high-titre and control groups, no difference in mortality between the first and the second vaccination was noted. After the second vaccination, the female-male mortality ratio was 1.84 (95% CI 1.19-2.84) in children in the high-titre groups who received DTP-IPV or IPV, and 0.59 (0.34-1.04) in controls who received standard measles vaccine (p=0.007). Children who received HTMV but no additional DTP-IPV or IPV had a female-male mortality ratio of 0.83 (0.41-1.67). This ratio was 2.22 (1.04-4.71) for children who received DTP-IPV after routine HTMV and 1.00 (0.68-1.47) for those who did not. When we combined the results from all trials, the female-male mortality ratio was 1.93 (1.33-2.81) for those who received DTP or IPV after HTMV, and 0.96 (0.69-1.34) for those who did not (p=0.006).
Lara - keep drinking the Kool Aid. And after they give you your flu shot next year, ask them how much thimerosal you just got, it's still in there
Ignorant..no..if he's researched or has been briefed, he knows full well and is aware that taking any vaccine to an area where polio is epidemic will kill many, many children. This isn't a feel good campaign on his part, this is murder, and as in the tape that I posted, his goal is depopulation. Polio epidemics, the paralysis and deaths have been studied in relation to vaccines.
He indeed will be the "baby killer".
Provocation of poliomyelitis by multiple injectionsHV Wyatt - Transactions of the Royal Society of Tropical Medicine …, 1985 - Elsevier
... All drugs which cause peripheral motor neuropathies (ARGOV MASTAGLIA, 1979) will promote
an increase in poliomyelitis, whether the ... Two epidemics are, however, suggestive. ... 142 children
up to two years old, some of whom were given DPT inactivated polio vaccine in the ...
You seem discomforted, but please note you were in there first, sneering - and without a substantive point about the issue. If you had anything interesting to say you did not start well. Is this how the Australian government officials conducts themselves?
Now wasn't it Bill Gates who said, if we promote vaccines and birth control we can reduce the population? Not sure, but are his thoughts slipping into his words? He intends to reduce the population. We do know that countries such as Japan raised their population simply by refusing vaccines until age two, making their infant mortality rate one of the lowest in the world, we know that vaccinated children are overrepresented in epidemics such as measles, we know that giving any shot increases the chance of paralytic polio, so maybe his intent is "to kill babies", and meet the goal of reducing population. We give him too much credit when his own words suggest this.There is a concept of "virgin soil", our children are not exposed to illnesses, they gain nothing but partial ,temporary immunity from diseases that one day will , as with virgin soil epidemics, wipe out millions.
Zofie may be correct, as much as no one wants to believe in Bilderberg's intents.
We should respond to vaccine pushers' propaganda with a similar tactic. We should be placing info on various internet discussion fora and make a connection of vaccines with baby killing. We have VAERS and published studies to support this statement, they have nothing. We should not worry, in the US more than 60% of parents know now that currently used vaccines are dangerous and can kill or injure children. The rest will learn soon.
Mary and Louise,
If I could have been at this rally to support the cause, I would have been. But I was there in spirit!
Our now 17-1/2 year old son was injured by his whole cell DPT vaccine back in 1993. Immediately upon receipt of his vaccine, he fell into a deep slumber (somnolence); we could not awaken him for some 12 hours, post-vaccination. When he awakened from his somnolence, we heard an ear-piercing high-pitched scream which sent us running to his room. I can still remember as if it were yesterday, his piercing screams (he was four months old at the time), as he banged his head repeatedly against my husband's chest. When I called our pediatrician, he asked that I hold out the phone so he could better hear our son's screaming. When I got back on the phone with him, he said in a very low voice, "Your baby is having a reaction to his vaccine. Please administer Tylenol and bring him into the office within 15 minutes if he doesn't quit screaming."
Our son was medically exempted from any pertussis component in a vaccine, after this reaction. Yet, even after having the DT vaccine at the age of six months, our son still reacted with complete somnolence and petit mal seizures. That is when my husband, an attorney, and I, a legal researcher, decided to commence with, what we do best -- RESEARCH.
We didn't have an in-home computer in those days. We found ourselves camped out in either our local public library and/or a medical library, pouring over medical research in medical journals, PubMed, and the like. What we found completely shocked us to our very core. We found there had, indeed, been absolutely no legitimate research done as to vaccine safety and efficay, and further, even worse, that many of the vaccines they claim are completely safe and effective, was just the opposite. When I read Barbara Loe Fisher's book, "DPT - A Shot In The Dark," I cried. We could have inserted our son's name alongside any of the case histories Barbara outlines in her book, as to infants having reacted to their whole cell DPT vaccines.
I would urge -- BEG EVEN -- any of those of whom read these posts and feel the need to disparage AoA and those of us who have vaccine injured children, to DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
We were extremely pro-vaccine when we took our son for his well-baby check-ups. I was warned, repeatedly, by a dear friend of mine, about vaccine dangers. She told me about Mothering Magazine and urged that I start reviewing vaccine literature regarding the down side to vaccines.
I didn't listen. This was before I'd even met my now husband and I succumbed to the pressure by my OB/GYN and new pediatrician, to vaccinate our son. Had I known that my families' history with severe allergies, ADD and my new husband's severe allergies, would have any genetic impact on the cellular level it did with our beautiful son when it came time to vaccinate him, I would have stayed in my heart (which is where I should have been) and not allowed them to vaccinate him. We were repeatedly reassured by our pediatrician that no harm would come to our son should we continue to vaccinate.
Little did I know that the penicillin given to me during my 1st Trimester for my upper respiratory infection (it did nothing whatsoever for me), the Turb given to me to quell my preterm labor at 28 weeks, the Tetanus shot given to me in my 2nd Trimester for an EXTREMELY mild cat scratch (didn't even break the skin), and the Hepatitis B vaccine given to our newborn baby at just 12 hours of age (even though I tested negative at Denver's Rose Medical as a Hep. B carrier...
...ALL co-factored into our son's huge vaccine reactions.
We quit vaccinating our son at the age of six months. Further, we were very fortunate in having had a pediatrician who was upfront with us about our son's reaction(s) -- he explained we could expect to see academic issues with our son starting at Kindergarten, which we did -- and all our son's reactions were thoroughly recorded in his medical files.
Still, I HAD to report our son's reactions to VAERS, because these physicians would not do it. But still, we are exceedingly grateful our physicians at least acknowledged our son's reactions and offered to continue to work with us as clients, even after we decided to no longer vaccinate our baby.
Today, our son is thriving and healthy. We have used the services of a great homeopathic physician, recommended to us by our own mainstream pediatrician, for almost 16 years, now. Our son is no longer in special education classes and is considered just a normal kid. He has tons of friends and has adjusted very well in high school. He plans on attending college as well. We consider ourselves to be extremely blessed.
Had it not been for my Mom's intuition when it came time to decide to no longer vaccinate our son, I can't honestly say where we'd be at the moment. Our son could have potentially died or, at the minimum, been left severely brain damaged.
Our story, sadly, is extremely typical of so many. My heart goes out to those of you struggling with autistic issues. In some fashion, I DO UNDERSTAND your pain and your struggles. Perhaps this road to hell was paved with good intentions, but it is time for ALL to pull their heads out of the sand, look at this issue with NO FEAR, and commence with appropriate vaccine safety/efficacy studies.
But EVEN if vaccines were to be ever proven completely safe and effective for everyone, we should STILL have the right to decide, as sovereign human beings, whether or not to use vaccination as a preventative health-care measure. There are, indeed, other ways to stay healthy and contrary to the oft repeated phrase that 'vaccines are the ONLY way to prevent this or that,' THAT JUST IS NOT TRUE.
Louise/Mary -- Thank you so very much for all your hard work. I have your book; absolutely CANNOT put it down.
mistake on below post...
a conditioned - not cognitive - motivating operation of the surrogate type where you pair stimuli to evoke behavior. That is what they are doing... pairing baby killing to vaccine safety to evoke people to ignore vaccine safety. It is really quite a brilliant move on their end... That doesn't mean it is good for children... but it is good for pharma
Yes, www.aad.gov.au is interesting and valuable. But you're still a troll.
Thanks for your clearly sincere effort to relate.
also.. perhaps it is time for a behavioral analyst to just come right out and explain their advertising tactics.
Bill Gates has paired vaccine safety to child killing. He and his friends are going to pound that into the media and into the brains of anyone dumb enough to tune into CNN or other pharma sponsored stations over and over again.. much like how Saddam and 911 were paired to sell the war,, even though saddam had nothing to do with 911. It's an advertising trick.... a cognitive motivating operation - surrogate. I wish an ABA was employed to analyze their moves for everyone to see and understand. Everytime they use advertising tricks instead of real science, they need to be called out on it, and most of what they do is spin straight out of ed bernays. I pray they have a change of heart.
To the person who googled my name:
I'm more than happy to discuss why I'm here posting comments. This topic interests me on a personal level.
Not that I need to justify myself to anyone.
It's quite galling to be researched in that manner, and then have aspersions cast against my character by someone who is apparently not brave enough to post using their real name.
The implication that since I work for the the Australian Govt I must be involved in some underhand activity is risible (look it up). In your googling did you not bother to see what the AAD is, and what we do?
(To anyone who is interested, have a look at www.aad.gov.au. I'm very proud of the work we do. It's fascinating and increasingly important.)
In any case, thank you Bob Moffit for your response, which was offered in the same spirit in which my original question was asked.
I still am flabbergasted by the audacity of these 'vaccine safety advocates' as they are calling themselves and the lengths they will go to in order to keep this debate alive and growing. Do they honestly think that there hasn't been safety precautions taken in vaccines since they first started screaming "Thimerosal is causing autism?" Even though there has never been any evidence found by medical and science professionals who have looked (no, I'm not going to take Jenny McCarthy's word for anything medical, she's not a doctor and needs to be quiet) it was removed from vaccines 17 years ago at the request of consumer demand, and they are still blaming new cases of autism on it. Multiple research studies have been done, not just by scientists and medical professionals in the US but around the world starting when they first began screaming about this supposed connection they swore damaged their children. Never has any *REAL* study been able to find any even casual link between the two. It's time to let this go and start looking for REAL solutions. Bill Gates echoes my own personal feelings on this issue: These out spoken people are the ones undermining the vaccine program because parents aren't getting their kids vaccinated because they are afraid of them getting autism. It doesn't happen and it is irresponsible to not have your children vaccinated. Herd immunity is being compromised and diseases that KILL children (which is why there is a vaccine for them to begin with) are creeping back up and children are dying. Find and read a book 'The Panic Virus' by Seth Mnookin and learn the real and WHOLE story behind these people's vocal antics. Get your children vaccinated, it just might be his or her life you save!
Shouldn't we also count adults among the vaccine-injured? It's time we include the millions of Alzheimer's patients who likely were injured by their yearly flu-shots. I noticed that autistic children have a prevalence of the APOE4 gene which is considered to be a marker for Alzheimer's. The indemnification of vaccine manufacturers will also affect the elderly.
When I saw Bill Gates on CNN with Sanjay Gupta, the only thing I could think about was the movie "The Constant Gardener". What is Bill Gates' real motivation?
Bob Moffitt and John Stone,
Your honest responses to Jeff Keogh, a seemingly new, interested commenter here are completely respectful and appropriate. However, Jeff Keogh, when looked up via the internet works for the Australian Government in some capacity. One has to wonder why he is hanging around blogs and websites that are dealing with vaccine injury and treatments for them? Here is an excerpt of what he writes:
Jeff Keogh :
17 Feb 2011 2:14:48pm
Ha ha ha. That's funny.
And the increasing numbers of deaths? Are they due to diagnostic advances too?
I absolutely do blame the 'conscientious objectors'. This is not a matter of opinion. It is a mathematical reality. When herd immunity is compromised then the disease has wider spread and greater impact.
'Conscientious objectors' indeed. I have less complimentary descriptors for people whose actions enable the return of child-killing diseases.
And here : Endogenous Viruses and "Junk" DNA
Published by Steven Novella
# Jeff Keogh on 13 Jan 2010 at 3:54 pm
What you say may well be true with regard to energy/time expenditure in replication.
My initial point remains – where is the selection pressure coming from? Unless there is some mutation which removes all (or even a fraction) of non-coding DNA (which would be a hell of a mutation!) then there is not going to be the phenotypic effect upon which selection could act.
Also, I think Draal makes a very good point. The impact additional non-coding DNA may have has clearly not penalised mulitcellular life to this point.
and here mooning over Chris Mooney:
Jeff Keogh Says:
February 15th, 2010 at 6:04 pm
I quite enjoyed Mooney's interview style; it was quite relaxed.
I'm a bit concerned about For Good Reason, however. It seems to me that DJ's focus is still on secular humanism, whereas the JREF's domain is somewhat more broad than that.
Yes, we're only three episodes in, but I am concerned that FGR is turning out to be the bastid lovechile' of Point of Inquiry.
DJ! More skepticism!
His name also takes you here:
Diagnostics Company | Nanogen Inc | Worldwide Distributors
Website: www.aad.gov.au. Email: firstname.lastname@example.com Navlink Medical and Drug Test – Point-of-Care Products Unit 4/241 Kings St. ...
and on that same website:
Relationships Fuel our Growth
Since early 2004, we have been expanding our capabilities through acquisitions and partnerships. These relationships have helped to grow into an advanced diagnostics company focused providing products to enable implementation of the latest advances in patient care and patient management.
Fisher Healthcare
Fisher Healtchare is the exclusive distributor of MGB Alert® real-time PCR products in the United States for the clinical market. In March of 2008, Nanogen expanded its relationship with Fisher Healthcare's parent company, ThermoFisher, through a licensing and distribution agreement. ThermoFisher will use MGB™ real-time PCR technology to market RNA gene expression assays for the research market. www.fishersci.com
ARUP Laboratories
This collaboration agreement with Associated Regional and University Pathologists (ARUP Laboratories), a national reference laboratory, covers the development and supply of Nanogen's MGB™ Detection Reagents. MGB Detection Reagents incorporate Nanogen's proprietary MGB™, Eclipse® Dark Quencher, and modified nucleotide technologies into a real-time PCR detection platform used by clinical diagnostic laboratories to provide information for accurate and timely medical decision making. Under the agreement, ARUP and Nanogen will collaborate on the development and validation of infectious disease assays for use in the clinical diagnostic laboratory. www.aruplab.com.
Gates Foundation Grand Challenge Consortium
The consortium, a collaboration of academic, industry and non-profit partners, was awarded a $15 million grant by the Gates Foundation. The funded project is aimed at developing and testing prototypes of a device about the size of a handheld computer that healthcare workers could pack into remote regions to quickly and easily make life-saving diagnoses.
Celera Diagnostics
In 2004, Nanogen entered into a worldwide non-exclusive license with Celera Diagnostics for incorporation of its MGB™ technology into Celera Diagnostics' products for selected infectious diseases. The license agreement allows Celera Diagnostics to manufacture, sell and distribute TaqMan® probes that utilize Nanogen's minor groove binder and quencher in selected products. Under the agreement, Nanogen receives license fees and royalties on sales of such licensed products to end-users.
In October of 2008, Nanogen expanded its relationship with Celera to develop in vitro diagnostic assays for cardiovascular and oncological applications. This is an expansion of the original license agreement, signed in 2004, in which Celera licensed the technology for development of a hepatitis C genotyping test for individual patient management, monitoring and treatment.
Information about Celera Diagnostics and its infectious disease products is available at www.celeradiagnostics.com"
Maybe families from Australia who have vaccine-injured children can shed more light on this?
I wonder, if Bill Gates is simply a giga ignorant, who does not know anything about basic UNSAFETY of all vaccines (there is no pediatric vaccine in VAERS, which would not cause death of serious injuries to children). Or is Bill Gates used by vaccine pushers to promote their agenda of making giga money over dead bodies of children, or is Bill Gates a true eugenicist promoting agenda of Bilderberg group of exterminating ¾ of the human population for benefits of plutocrats?
For that matter, as far as boycotting goes and I said this forever here on this page, it's time we cut them off at the knees, and that means, we don't partake of vaccines ever again, until these incencitves and regulatory oversight and non justice for non change are gone. If they cannot guarantee a safe vaccine, we won't partake of any. We should ask all our family members to support us (let's see how that goes), and our friends. We should take a two block radius of our home, print out what we feel is the problem here Houston, and deliver them house to house, friend to friend, neighbor to neighbore, picking one saturday in the next few months, accompianied by our children as they stand with us in this fight. How hard can that be?...that's how UNICEF started, door to door. It's time we take our protest and belief to the very doors of consumers that make these every day so called "innocuous medical" decisions. One can have a nifty PDF file that parents can print out, along with business cards. Louise, can you start such a drive or ask parents to do that? I would gladly volunteer as well as my husband and kids. Maybe a few protests at pediatric entrances (so as to not disturb the actual traffic flow to the office) is in order. If we can't all assemble at the same time, we sure as heck can assemble with our own family members in protest of this descision!
Thank you to all who attended this press conference. You represent many of us who could not be there in person, but were with you in spirit. "We are here....we are here.....we are here!"
At the beginning of Vaccine Epidemic, the writers invite debate. Why don't they just start inviting people to debates. Set a time and a place and give out the invites. No one will show to debate them. These debates need to invited press... not many will come... but facebook and youtube would be great too. Invite them to debate and film them not showing up. And again... a "Show me the study" campaign needs to begin. Someone with a platform needs to begin it.
They need to admit to vaccine injury.. not autism. People must stop asking for our government to acknowledge that vaccines cause autism. As they keep saying..... even on Oz.... Autism is an incurable neurological disorder and they don't know where it comes from. Many Many Many of these kids are not autistic. They are vaccine injured. Change the language for Pete's sake. It hasn't worked, and they have succeeded in conditioning the public to believe them. Stop blaming autism on vaccines... and instead blame vaccine injury on vaccines. This small event was a good start. Microsoft needs to go on a list of companies that won't acknowlegde that vaccines hurt some children. Grow the list and publicize it. Start a "show me the study" campaign to the president, and make him acknowledge that there has been no study to look at what multiple vaccines do to people. Regarding Gates.... I pray he has a change of heart. He is sacrificing children. How sick is that.
I am very puzzled by the announcement that Brian Deer has been nominated for an award for his Sunday Times journalism. A few weeks ago a legal manager from the Sunday Times appeared to publicly disown him!!!
Here is the statement:-
It is quite clear that you do not understand English. Brian Deer is a member of the Sunday Times staff. He is a freelance journalist who runs his own website and blog and is not under the control or direction of the Sunday Times. Mr. Deer should not represent himself as a Sunday Times journalist. He is not a member of staff, does NOT have a regular salary from us, is not on our pension scheme and pays his own tax as a freelance. If he says that he writes for the Sunday Times that would be correct. He is a contributor to The Sunday Times on an occasional basis but again we have no control over him ..."
- Alaistair Brett, Legal Manager, Sunday Times
Thanks so much to these outstanding advocates!!
Jeff .. admittedly .. the number who actually attended this press conference was small .. however .. it started mid-day, mid-week, in mid-town Manhattan .. which meant hundreds of people passing by .. most of whom were drawn instinctively to the eloquent speakers .. being filmed by four or five camera crews in attendance.
I'll call it a success if only a handful of those passerbys got the message:
"Vaccination Choice -- Not Coercion"
I searched High and I searched low and couldn't find any media reporting on the rally. So what else is new, right?
Thanks, Kim, for this great reporting. Only wish I could have been there to lend support .I know you all did a terrific job. Maurine
Thank you for reporting on this. Thanks to Mary Holland, Louise, and all the others who spoke out on Thursday. Thank you John Stone and all the others who have responded to Gates' ridiculous and irresponsible remarks.
Get a start on boycotting Microsoft by using Open Office software instead of Microsoft Office.
Open Office doesn't have quite as many bells and whistles, but free is an excellent price.
I thought the same thing, not wanting to buy another Microsoft product to support a Eugenicist. But Apple is guilty of horrific slave labor conditions. No matter which way you buy, it's evil.UGH.
I am compiling a list of children who were adversely affected by any vaccine. Please if you could say in about 4-6 sentences what that vaccine was how they reacted, how they are today and what city the vaccine was administered. I have a long list from members already so if you sent it to me before I don't need it again. Please send to
Many thanks
Admin to Dr Wakefield's work must continue
and Autism mothers on Facebook
I see that Brin Deer has been nominated in England for specialist journalist of the year and news reporter of the year and I wonder what to make of this? the Times has 18 nominations and the Sunday Times has 14 and Deer's are two of these
I do not ever again want to buy another Microsoft product.
I know nothing about Apple Macs and their software. Can I buy an Apple Mac computer which does not use any Bill Gates' software. I would hate to think I am contributing to his evil plans.
The Supreme Court have ruled definitively that the vaccine manufacturers have no liability for their products in virtually any respect. Why would they need to have such protection if they made decent, safe products? Meanwhile, US citizens are under an obligation to make sure their children receive an ever expanding list of such products. The position is a scandal, and what does the mainstream media do: it barely reports and it doesn't explain - and virtually nobody knows or understands the enormity of what's happened, and even if the do they have to look after sick kids or go to work. So, I am not surprised there were not many people there at very short notice. But this is a serious matter which will ultimately seep into the consciousness of millions of people, and it will haunt the US nationally and internationally for a long time to come.
The text of my letter to Bill Gates two weeks ago (so far unanswered):-
Dear Mr Gates,
Re: Remarks about child killers and Andrew Wakefield to Sanjay Gupta on CNN
I am writing in support of the letter published on the Autism Action Coalition website.
I was shocked and saddened by your remarks, partly because it is certain that if we suppress discussion with regard to vaccine safety, then it will be to the detriment of vaccine safety - but also because it did not contribute to the tolerant discussion of a subject about which there remain at the very least considerable doubts. In particular I would like to draw your attention to the comment of Prof Christoper A Shaw, one of the organisers of a recent conference on vaccine safety, in British Medical Journal on-line:
"The recent BMJ editorial, along with several recent publications, have made extremely serious allegations of scientific fraud against Dr. Wakefield and his colleagues in regard to the 1998 Lancet study that supposedly linked the MMR vaccine to gastrointestinal disorders and autism. Even assuming that such fraud was committed -and there is abundant countervailing evidence to suggest that such did not occur- does the use of the term 'fraud' invalidate a legitimate scientific question? The answer is that it does not. The autism spectrum disorders incidence levels have grown explosively since 1992. Claims that such rising levels are due to changes in the gene pool have no scientific validity. Similar claims that changes in diagnostic criteria for ASD are to blame, while partially true, cannot account for the 2000 to 3000% change in ASD. This observation leads inevitably to one remaining conclusion, namely that something in the human environment is the culprit. There are many possible factors that may have increased leading to rising ASD levels. One of these is the significantly increased vaccine schedule for children. Any a priori exclusion of possible factors based on belief rather than evidence is not scientific, but rather reflects a disturbing trend to view anything associated with vaccines and vaccine policy as sacred and beyond scientific scrutiny. Indeed, some who appear to take this view frame their arguments less as scientific critiques and more as ad hominem attacks on the credibility, expertise, or scientific training of any who do what scientists are trained to do: ask questions and seek answers. Assertions that those who do so in respect to any aspect of vaccine safety must therefore be "anti vaccine" and hence not to be taken seriously belies a belief system that is profoundly unscientific. As most readers will know, an ad hominem attack on an opponent's character or credibility is a tacit admission that the logical argument is lost. Such comments have occurred in some letters to the editor on the issue of the Wakefield editorial and have attempted to portray those scientists who attended the recent Vaccine Safety Conference in Jamaica as unreliable because of some alleged bias against vaccines. As one of the organizers of the conference, let me state that an anti-vaccine bias was not the agenda of the meeting. Rather, a number of highly qualified scientists from different fields gathered for an open examination of the issue and in so doing simply fulfilled their fiduciary duties as scientists to seeking the truth."
Secondly, your remarks regarding autism and vaccines are contradicted by the none other than Julie Gerberding, the then director of the Centers for Disease Control, speaking three years ago to the very same Sanjay Gupta on CNN:
"Now, we all know that vaccines can occasionally cause fevers in kids. So if a child was immunized, got a fever, had other complications from the vaccines. And if you're predisposed with the mitochondrial disorder, it can certainly set off some damage. Some of the symptoms can be symptoms that have characteristics of autism."
Finally, I would like to draw your attention to the recent review of measles data in the United Kingdom by Dr F Edward Yazbak which disclose neither high incidence of the disease nor significant motality following Dr Wakefield's remarks.
Unfortunately, if there is not to be much collateral damage from a global vaccination campaign and many individual tragedies, vaccine safety needs to be a subject which is tolerantly discussed, and I beg you to take a lead.
Yours sincerely,
John Stone (Autism Parent, UK Editor, Age of Autism)
Is there a link to any other photos? It'd be great to see the crowd there in support of the event.
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text:
A late Christmas for me...
Weight is a little disappointing, but I don't really care this time
A late Christmas for me...
Weight is a little disappointing, but I don't really care this time
Giant Anthem
Cannondale Synapse
Oooh.....purdy!!!! Going to look good with that black fox.
I may be fat but I'm slow enough to make up for it.
Very nice! - Now build that sucker up and go hucking.
Thanks guys It's going to take a few more days to finish building up. I'll be getting the wheels hopefully tomorrow. I also need to change the rear brake hose, and bleed both brakes (hate doing that btw).
Giant Anthem
Cannondale Synapse
Shoot us some build pix also!!!Originally Posted by erhan
Cool cool. I like the Giants.
Fricken Great Frame!!!! I was just looking at 19". Don't worry about the weight.
Sure, here's what I've done so far. Nothing really Looks more like a bike thoughOriginally Posted by bac
Giant Anthem
Cannondale Synapse
Originally Posted by erhan
Oh My God, I have to go take another cold shower!!! That's going to a great FS.
So how long until you machine a rear triangle out of stainless steel? I've heard that really increases the performance.
I may be fat but I'm slow enough to make up for it.
I did hear that too. First I have to ask my dad though, he knows that kind of stuffOriginally Posted by LowCel
Giant Anthem
Cannondale Synapse
So I know zilch about Giants. How long has that suspension design been around?
I am considering a Banshee Pyre which uses a very similar design. There's little feedback to be found on those however, so I'm anxious to hear your ride impressions.
Why the new bike? Pyre looks like it will climb better than the sx trail?
You know if you get a bike that supposed to be able to go up hills, you'll have no excuse when you get off and push like me
I just had a quick look at the Banshee, it looks very similar indeed.Originally Posted by gastro
I believe Giant's first Maestro design bikes came out in 2005. I have done a lot of reading about it, and it seems to be one of the most efficient designs. Here is an interesting comparison. The bad, it's at Giant's site, and we wouldn't know how much biased it is. The good, all the rider opinions I have read so far confirms what was written about Maestro.
I think my initial thoughts on the design will be quite limited, since this is my first FS, and I will only be able to compare it to a hardtail. Already I am dieing to try out the bike, but I'm afraid it will be a while as it is below freezing out there. It will be more like a torture than being fun.
Giant Anthem
Cannondale Synapse
Very nice. Can't wait to see it built up fully.
First Class Jerk
[BORAT VIOCE]Very Nice![/BORAT VOICE]
WOW!!!, now thats a beautiful frame, you made me love Giant Anthem again. XD, damn that frame looks sweet, who do you order it from? Too bad my dealer doesnt import in a Giant Anthem Team frame, really dig the frame, by the way - how do you get your hands on the black fox fork? -
Oh and Low Cel whatcha mean by using stainless steel on the rear triangle (you are talking bout the silver triangle rite? Not the swingarm, is that correct?)
Basically I am now copying my Anthem geometry and transforming it into 3D, post some pics as soon im finished, too bad I cant get my Inventor welding to work properly .
By the way, how Maestro rides you ask? I can answer you that, have been riding my Anthem since my wound healed (feel guilty on not riding my old bike ). Anyway, the Anthem is hell fast, my Anthem weights at around 12-13kg (26 - 28 pounds ) the weight is fair though, even at lower PSI (I accidently released my shock air and doesnt have a shock pump, haha) the rear suspension movement is very minimal even at lower PSI (when seated), downhill is bomb, the lower center of gravity makes the bike feel stable while turning sharply. Anyway I have ridden for about 60++ miles and I love my bike
Hope you enjoy yours Erhan
P.S : Internet connection seem fast so far
Thanks. A friend in Taiwan got the frame from a Giant dealer, and I found the Fox on ebay.Originally Posted by wheelhot
Lowcel was joking and so was I.
Giant Anthem
Cannondale Synapse
So, I got the wheels today. Tune King Kong hubs, Sapim CX-Ray spokes, and Olympic rims. Total weight is 1399 grams, tubeless ready.
Giant Anthem
Cannondale Synapse
Oic, haha, hmm i wonder how much weight you can shave by redesigning a few simple parts...hmm
Wheels are awesome, I'm jealous!!!
I may be fat but I'm slow enough to make up for it.
Sweet looking bike!
2006 Marin Pine Mountain FX
erhan's complete front wheel weighs less than one of my rims.
Flak, the Pyre would replace my 04 Enduro as an "XC" bike. But I'm only half serious about it right now.
Looks good...what's wrong with a 5.7lb FS frame? Not the lightest but still pretty good...but what's with the 'Anthemterm'?
The wheels look pretty sweet!

subset: commoncrawl


text:
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This Renaissance palazzo and its art collection were bequeathed to Venice by Giovanni Querini, a 19th-century scientist, man of letters and silk producer...
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This has to stop. I don't know how I became the defacto Cinematical poster for all things 3D, but in less than a week I've gone from hypothesizing about the Oscars creating an awards category for 3D films to sharing my enthusiasm for Zemeckis' A Christmas Carol to raving about how pointless a 3D CGI animated prequel to Night of the Living Dead sounds to the announcement of a new 3D study program at USC's film school. And if that's not enough of the third dimension for one man to take in so short a span, now comes word that Real D has plans to manufacture 3D-wear from designers like Gucci.
Variety has the scoop from the recent 3D Entertainment Summit, "While Real D hasn't made a formal announcement, Real D topper Michael Lewis tipped the story after Fox Sports chairman David Hill said he thought great-looking glasses would change the picture for 3D. "I have two teenaged girls, and they don't want to go on dates looking like they're going to do some spot welding," Hill said." ... "Lewis responded that designer Real D glasses, including Gucci designs, will be available "in certain outlets" before "Avatar" opens in December. Prescription glasses are on the way some time later."
News like this hurts my brain. On the one hand, I can understand the need to accommodate prescription glasses. I used to be a glasses wearer myself, so I know how annoying it is to cram a second pair on top of the first. I understand that prescription glasses would help serve a certain niche of the market, but unless their price point is going to be drastically cheaper than a regular pair of glasses, I can't see how this idea is going to catch on. Paying a couple hundred dollars every other year for something you cannot function without is one thing, but paying an additional couple hundred so you can sit in a theater a few times a year without looking like every single other person in the room? The concept blows my mind.
So, glasses wearers out there? Are you ready to own your own custom pair of 3D glasses? And if so, are you only going to be in the market for designer brand glasses? How important is it what you look like when you're not the center of attention in an already darkened room?
Oh, and parents out there, how important is it that your child have toddler-sized glasses? Because according to Variety, Real D has a line or two of those in the works as well...
categories Movies, Cinematical


text: Mick - Unregistered December 13, 2011 9:00 PM The last true privateer in Motogp/500 to get on the podium was as I said Mackenzie at Donny 1993, the last ture customer privateer was 1989 at the strike hit Misano for Simon Buckmaster and Michael Rudruff. So you see it doesn't happen often, the remaining 9 years of 500 it never happened.Now with WSB only having a 22 year history, can anybody tell me the last true privateer to podium in that? I dont mean the likes of Liberty Ducati's that use 300km Ducati prepared engines or hand built 3rd party frames. An actual off the shelf and in house modified and tuned bike, as the original rules were. 0 agree 0 disagree


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