text:
Why are women always in such a rush to "settle down"? Why can't we just enjoy ourselves? Relax and have a beer on the couch with us ladies, and quit nagging. Or go find some wuss you can boss around. Good luck.
It's a double standard. I'm a financially independent man in his 20s and simply locating a mature woman with similar career attainments is next to impossible. Women in their 20s seem to me to be just as immature and stuck in adolescence as the men being accused of the same. Where are the women that aren't expecting life to be one constant "adventure" after another? Where can this mature man find someone who isn't looking at life as backpacking through Europe for months on end and seeking a new thrill every weekend? Or are we seeing women in a situation where they want their cake and eat it too, and refusing to apply the same standards they seek in a mate upon themselves?
Travis, the answer your question is quite obvious - it's called "biological clock"...
"She has already responded to many of those comments in a subsequent Ideas Market blog post, "
Well, no, sorry. In her brief reply Ms. Hymowitz has not responded at all to the comments engendered by the original article. Rather, she has simply dismissed them with a weak ad-hominem attack, refusing abjectly to face the substance of the criticism and foolishly "doubling down" on her own misconceptions. I award her zero points, and we are all the more foolish for having given her this much attention.
kay has a man problem.....and any man who gets involved with this type deserves what he gets.
also; i think the statistics prove that degrees and entrepreneurship do not necessarily match up where new business is concerned.
pherhaps men are sick of the role-playing kay has in mind-because of the kay's with narcissistic needs?
When you have a culture that
does not make men feel important, what can you
I'm not going to stick around to chat, but why isn't it good for men to wait until they have more education, financial security, and maturity to begin raising a family? Can a man with only a high school diploma, an entry level job, and a few years of independence provide the best support and guidance for the next generation?
I was primarily financially independent after high school, and although I was ready to get married right afterwards, always new I wanted to wait until significant financial savings before starting on children. (First due September). I do not believe I would be financially or emotionally competent much before 30.
Ms. Hymowitz has a nostalgic and idealistic concept of marriage, and it seems that from her perspective anybody who conceives marriage in a different light is wrong. Her personal resentment for the difficulty of finding the mate her expectations created in her mind is palpable, and she makes dangerous generalizations ("they continue to be more troubled and less successful than men who deliberately choose to become husbands and fathers"). Where is the data backing up this statement? And even if it was true, she does not have the right to shove marriage down the throats of those who choose not to follow that path. Skipping parenthood and marriage altogether seems to her as an irresponsibility, when it actually is a matter of personal choice, not a milestone that must be achieved to reach adulthood. Some people are happiest marrying, others are staying single. As someone said below, this female resentment is based on the biological clock. Well, tough shit. You can't blame men for what nature imposes on women. Nor men have to apologize for that. And neither all 20-somethings fall in the simplistic categorization of Ms. Hymowitz. Maybe she's just looking in the wrong place. Maybe American pre-adults are too spoiled and she needs to open her horizons to other cultures. A man can be the manliest man riding a Harley in the middle of nowhere, backpacking in Europe, and not having to call home, if so he chooses. Freedom and peace of mind are other milestones many men choose, not less valuable than those Ms. Hymowitz regards as ideal. "Manning up" should not be defined by women.
Feminism was and is a movement to change the very structure of what had become society. Is that not merely what these "pre-Adult" men are doing? It used to be expected of men to want to marry, support a family, et cetera. Women have shown us that we, as men, do not need to simply agree to what is considered "normal" by society's standard. We, too, have broken the social barriers that had previously constrained us to a life we knew, deep inside, we didn't want. We too are trying to change social norms- we want to drink beers and hang with our bros. It's way more fun than having children. Women and men have different priorities, and that's all there is to it.
I found this author's biography on the internet:
Mrs. Hymowitz is well-known for her retrospective interpretation of contemporary social trends. Her primary goal as a writer is to document her generation's disgust with the collapse of archaic social roles as economic prosperity allows many young individuals the freedom of self-determination. In her view, most individuals would be better off if they simply performed within their proscribed roles as a member of society-- and those who fail to do so ought to be considered as overgrown children. (In Hymowitz's view, this failure seems to fall almost exclusively within the province of young males.) This perspective is prevalent amongst the aging generation to which she belongs, and her writings provide a voice to all of those who wish to self-righteously degrade those who disregard the opinions of people older than they are.
Biographer, sounds about right. The hypocrisy is palpable. As a feminist she wants nothing more than to break the archaic stereotype of women. Yet men trying to do the same thing are immature and misguided. Pure trash is what her writing is.
Did anyone actually read the original article? Although the postponement of marriage is one of the factors --it is not the defining factor in determining that men are stuck in a state of arrested development. The lack of independence to sustain their own method of survival is the issue.
It is amazing to think some 20 somethings start Facebook, Twitter and Groupon ..while others cannot find a job at minimum wage because the application is too difficult. Some fight wars and others need their parents to go with them to negotiate traffic. Some won't pay rent, or seek experiences beyonds the comfort of their parents protective paremeter. And their parents in an everybody gets a trophy world has created this issue.
There are some expression that people raise girls and have boys. And that has more to do with this than the woman-man dynamic. Parents who have been all to eager to call a university professor to scold them for giving their child a C, or take to the playground to fight the bully for their child--have created a nation of puerille, partly incompetent slackers not ready for the real world. But our message to women was different--compete in a man's world--so toughen up Jane.
The US has one of the highest divorce rates in the world (about 50%), initiated mostly by women (about 70%). Though a man is legally innocent, by a Judge's order, he will automatically lose his child(ren) to a standard four (4) day a month "visitation schedule"; lose about eighteen (18) years of his income to child support and or other support; and, lose most of his property, in a unilateral (one person decides) and no-fault (no reason required) divorce.
Given this state, why would a man risk so much to be serious with a woman?
The indoctrination of an entire generation seems to be failing. The cracks in the hypothesis of 'you can have it all' are evident in the general dissatisfaction between the sexes. Making one or the other 'happy' ultimately makes them both miserable. When the competition interferes with relationships how stable can society be?
My gripe isn't with the overall general observations. What I loathe is how she tempers all of it with this condescension, like men are showing themselves to ultimately be boys. The tone (here I need italics) is all around critical, and her circumstantial evidence, along with her examples, are crooked in their politics--in my opinion. I wrote a little more, linking to a great article from The Times, here: http://julianbelvedere.tumblr.com/post/3474017994/a-woman-needs-a-man-like-a-fish-needs-a-gloria-steinem
The widespread societal feminization for the past 60 years has built in the perfect Catch 22 social convention for anything masculine; The expectation to assume the responsibilities of being a man while at the same time denigrating masculinity. What ever aspect of maleness that serves the feminine purpose is a man's masculine responsibility, yet any aspect that disagrees with feminine primacy is labeled "Patriarchy" and oppressive. Assuming all the same boy-men Hymowitz complains of took her message to heart and "manned-up", 6 months later her complaint article would be about how horribly oppressive, chauvinistic and misogynistic these "new men" had become.
Essentially this convention keeps beta males in a perpetual state of chasing their own tails. Over the course of a lifetime they're conditioned to believe that they're cursed with masculinity (Patriarchy) yet are still responsible to 'Man Up' when it suits a feminine imperative. So it's therefore unsurprising to see that half the men in western society believe women control their fates (male powerlessness) while at the same time women complain of a lingering Patriarchy (female powerlessness) or at least sentiments of it. This is the Catch 22 writ large. The guy who does in fact Man Up is a chauvinist, misogynist, patriarch, but he still needs to man up when it's convenient to meet the needs of a female imperative.
The short version is that, as in most other things in life, women want their cake and to eat it to. Whatever serves the feminine purpose is the responsible, correct thing to live up to for men, but that which doesn't is shamed and quashed socially.
ALL women (yes, I said "ALL") solipsistically presume that social dynamics should ALWAYS default to a feminine imperative. In essence everyone, male or female, should agree with any social dynamic that benefits the feminine. Without even an afterthought you are cast into what would benefit a feminine social frame and a female ideal. To the feminine mind (of both women and feminized men) this is just the way the world is.
Men are simply facilitators for a feminine reality.
Julian - that was very, very, very well stated. Thank you.
Your next step and the American males next step? Ignore the Ameriskank marry a foreign woman only whose intelligence, strength, politeness you will cherish deeply. A just as important step? Recognize that this woman "tempers all of it with condescension" for a reason. She and many other creepy people want to emasculate the American male. Why? The get HUGE economic gain by doing so.
In the 40s, women wanted providers, so guys became hard workers. In the 60s, women wanted loving guys, so guys became lovers. In the 80s, women wanted hunks, so guys became hunks. In the 00s, women wanted bums. So guess what? Guys have become bums. By the 20s, some new collective desire among women will pop up, and men will happily oblige... maybe it'll be protector-types (might need that).
So, women, you made guys bummy. Blame yourselves. Collectively, men have only become what women, collectively, wanted them to become. The hardworking, serious, intelligent guys are left single and ignored by you until you finally reach your 30's and realize that your bummy accessory is a drag on your life. A shame for all of you, because, by then, we'll already be taken... and you'll be left trying to turn some bummy guy into a co-provider. It'll take a lot of work, I can assure you of that.
Young men and women behave the way they do because they have allowed to. However, we're no longer in an affluent country that allows this young leisure class, and both sexes are going to have to learn to pull their own weight. The writer looks only at irresponsible young males. A young female who has a child with one of these irresponsible young men really is no better, is she? Pointing the finger at only one sex is pointless, except to generate interest for the writer. Congratulations to her.
As a 52 year old female that still lives like a 20 year old, I understand the dudes. Its the women who want to pop out babies for some bizarre reason that are the problem.
The problem began with the Women's Movement. It isn't about equally for women. It is about the feminization of men. Liberal women will not be satisfied until we live in a matriarchal society instead of the patriarchal one that God planned out perfectly in the beginning. We are seeing a steady decline, it comes with the fall.
Dear Ms. Hymowitz,
You concluded your article with this: "Who need them anyway?" I believe that women in society need them still. As a young woman, I feel that sometimes women need to develop patience, don't you think?
I recommend "Boys Adrift" by Leonard Sax.
Do you think this is a result of the absence of the father in a large majority of homes today?
Or, is it because there a very few men in the home raising the kids today?
So, The problem with the american men of today's generation is that they're overgrown children. Figures. Women of their generation don't want children, they don't want families... they're kind of in a developing career role- not quite settled yet (comes in her 30s) but generally independent with some spare cash. She wants to be the object of love and respect. She wants to give someone she loves direction, she wants to help them mature.
Traditionally, women that wanted these things had children. Now, they take in men that act like children. Eventually they get tired of these bums and want real children. It's biological, needless to say.
Benefits of a man-child versus a child?
Cleans up after himself, feeds himself, entertains himself.
Satisfies banal desires.
Gives you a long-term "improvement project"
Can be dumped if he becomes undesirable without feelings of guilt.
Attracts other, equally bummy (and therefore, cute) man-children.
So, basically, these manchildren are filling an important role for women not yet willing to have children.
Ms. Hymowitz: I agree with what you say. Male (at least) adolescence continues indefinitely, well beyond the age of 30. Fox News carries a middle-of-the-night program called "Red Eye" that illustrates your (and my) point. Marriage for young men is a terrible idea. It confines and frustrates them. An old saying goes "marriage for young men, not yet"; marriage for old men, never." I have quite a bit to say about this in my own book, entitled Of Herds and Hermits: America's Lone Wolves and Submissive Sheep Algora Books, 2008)
women who have the urge to marry and have children for whatever reason (biological clock, insecurity etc..) should start going out with older men. There are plenty of old guys who would love to go out with a beautiful young woman.
I am a 26 year old male. In todays age it is harder to become dependent than in previous eras. I am a chemist and I will not be financially independent until my thirties. I went to college from ages 18-23, it is harder to finish college in 4 years for science majors. From 23-25 I worked getting experience as a Research Associate. I am currently in a PhD program for chemistry which will last me between 4-6 years, then I will need a Post-doc which is a couple more years. A high school diploma does not cut it anymore... and I don't believe women have anything to do with it, unless I am overlooking something.
Regarding Kay's observations my only question is, "So what?" If men are happier basking in their "state of semi-hormonal adolescence", what is it to her or anyone else for that matter? Apparently, men and women alike are reacting to conditions in the manner that the believe maximizes their respective happiness. Is society collapsing around us? What is the doomsday forecast?
My dating demographic is men in the sixties, and I can attest to the fact that they are exactly as you describe 20-somethings
Our entire culture is becoming collectively more immature. This author highlights the problem in young men, someone else can highlight the same issues with young women.
IMHO, it all comes down to one thing -- dependence. Modern parenting is all about raising dependent children -- girl or boy. Mommy and Daddy will take care of everything, all we want is that you will be our friend. Our government imposes another kind of dependence. We refuse to acknowledge right from wrong, and refuse to penalize those who do wrong. Dependent people are, by definition, immature.
My children are far from perfect, but they do understand there is right and there is wrong, and that wrong actions have undesirable consequences. Even as pre-schoolers, we are introducing them to the ideas of independence. We challenge them to solve problems themselves, often fighting the natural urge to jump in and help. Then we give them the opportunity to bask in their success. It sounds simple to me, but even these simple concepts seem totally foreign to so many others.
Oh, please. There are plenty of under-developed people out there of both genders. This is just argument-baiting. Welcome to revers-sexism, I guess.
I feel that in this day and age, because today's woman handles everything on her own--at an early age I might add--todays men no longer feel the need to be the bread winners, the primary role model to their young children, the one to pull out our chairs on a date, etc. It is sad. I am a young and very successful single woman who is highly educated and felt at one time this was a major catch for men. But through the years it has been proven just the opposite. The pickings are very slim and I'm not getting any younger.
I am a chemist... And all the Men I know who are in either MD, DO, or PhD programs will not be financially independent until they are in their 30's. What does this have to do with women???
Terri has it correct, men will always loose 18 years of income along with custody so the best thing they can do in this society is not father any children and get a nice dog for company. Having paid 100% of all my child support I can assure you it is a path you do not want to go down.
My issues are about the fact that she thinks this is only allowed to men. I think she forgot to look at her own gender and how women (or girls, if we want to make this even in condescension) are digressing as well. Yes there are always exceptions to the rule, but what about the girls waiting for their disney prince? What about the girls who continue to go back to Disneyland to relive their childhood? What about the girls who rewatch their childhood cartoons and books and sit down and makes childish comments about movie stars and catty ones about girls? How has that become grown up?
Because it isn't. That's called the high school mentality, and that means girls haven't grown up since about age 16.
The current generation of twenty year olds (MY generation of women) is not grown up in any sense of the world. If anything, they are more childish than the boys this author describes. So no, I do agree with the article, and I have to wonder, why not take a look at those beside you before you start criticizing those across you? I think she [the author] needs to grow up a little herself.
Kay, do you realize the full scale of the economic carnage which is inflicted on men when a woman decides to divorce, or when "he gets her pregnant" and she pursues him for money?
Men are tuned in to what has been done to their friends, their fathers, their colleagues -- tens of millions of men in America -- by the divorce industry. And they want no part of it.
There is no safety for men in marriage or having children in America. Men have no rights in this regard.
This is why men are avoiding marriage and family. It is so, so simple.
You are focusing on how they bide their time rather than WHY they are biding their time in this way.
Look for the problem and study that, not the symptoms.
Loved the article. I am a physician and I see plenty of young men who don't grow up. I am not sure of all the reasons, however, I do know that all the cell phones, texting, etc, does very little for maturing communication. Will the art of actually talking with someone face to face ever come back?. Many social skills cannot develop. These devices are taking way too much of young adult's time. No one will get a job because one got an "A" on texting. The discipline of hard work in young adults is becoming more rare.
We all know that the problem is a reaction to the feminest movement. This movement is not natural.
It makes American women act like men. Very unattractive. Get a wife in Asia or Russia.
If women didn't put up with it, men wouldn't act this way. It's that simple.
Before the 20th century, few women in their twenties would have considered marrying a man in his twenties. It just wasn't a good economic or social decision. How has society changed? Why do young women want to marry young men, who neither have financial means or self-knowledge to successfully manage and sustain a marriage. It would seem that some women today persist in romantic illusions about life with high expectations that will only end in failure and delusion. I don't think these young women want men. They want their romantic illusions.
This is about selling books, just like the "Tiger Mom" thing about 'Asian moms are better than Western moms'. First the controversial story, then the response from the author, and then... surprise, surprise, the book. This is mercantile journalism
Anom has a good observation. I also believe the young adult men are acting as if they are in their teens. I also offer that our elected representatives are living irresponsibly and heavily charged by their *personal* beliefs and philosophy instead of *representing* their electorate.
I educated myself. I have a successful medical practice. I went to war, fought, and killed for my country. I pay my bills, I donate to charities, I volunteer my time as I see fit. I have earned the right to do what ever I want with my life. If this bothers someone than that is their problem, not mine.
Forces in society have changed mens view of their duties and if you will, obligations to women. Young men are not prone to open doors, or even pay for their dates dinner and the primary reason for this is can be layed squarely on the back of feminist groups and their agenda to equal the playing field or what I like to call the destruction of the nuclear family. I blame the politcally correct leftist, their allies in the press and the feminst groups for this and many other destructive trends in our society.
Well, men dont have many options, really. A woman can always choose marriage and motherhood (no career) and still be counted a success by a huge part of society. Men cant make that choice. Alternatively, women who go to college and live out their youth as cubicle dwellers in large corporations are seen as inspired, liberated, self-actualized, etc. Men who do this are seen as losers. On top of it all, women rarely find men attractive if they earn less money than they do.
Ms Hymowitz is perhaps upset that no real-men have proposed to her. Assuming single from her title. Something a very eligible - and extremely mature - bachelor friend told me: "Chivalry is not dead, it's just rarely worth the effort". Perhaps the change has more to do with the female side of the equation -- and, who wants to date a power-hungry mad-woman hell-bent on crashing through barriers - only to discover in her early 40's that she wants a family after all. Men don't want to compete with their wives Ms/Mrs/Miss Hymowitz - escape Manhattan for a spell and you'll see this.
Perhaps extended adolescence is the new obesity? Our physiology has trouble adjusting to food in abundance. Now or psychology has trouble adjusting to overall material 'abundance'. I'd argue that men might be in this space now, but that women will catch up. Where do you see the future trends of extended adolescence?
"Man Up" especially in this context is nothing more than a manipulation. "Conform" might be a better, more apt description of what is expected. Feminists are becoming unwitting stooges for a social doctrine that has more to do with profits than social equality.
I have two beautiful, intelligent, university educated daughters; and neither one has had what I would call a traditional dating experience. They are 6 yrs apart in age, and both state that men their age don't want serious relationships, marriage, careers, or responsibilities--just sex.
The thirty-something, single women I work with say the same thing. That's an age range of 19 to 35 year old women who are confronting the same behavior in men whose ages are in the same range.
What's going on?
I honor your service to a country that offers so many opportunities to slackers who consider the Motto "duty, honor, country" to be archaic.
Were I to have the oppostunity to debate Mrs. Hymowitz, I would not doubt her stereotypical approach.
Present a BS conjecture, and defend it with increasingly shrill NOISE!!
I wonder if her publisher would publish a book titled "Women, They Get Worse and Worse as They Age".
If feminism, which mistakenly taught American women that you have to behave like men in order to be treated equally, also taught women to alter their traditional role in the male-female relationship, why shouldn't men do the same? I for one prefer foreign women far ahead of the androgenous society we've created.
I'm 51, and never can I remember any adult (esp. my parents) ever sitting me down and talking to me about marriage and commitment. All we hear is compete, succeed, win, drink. I'm not blaming, it's just that men aren't hearing anything about marriage and commitment from their elders. They're just blamed for not growing up. I'm grown up now, and I know the advantages of marriage /commitment for men, but I learned the hard way, believe me.
If women want to be accepted for who they are - faults and everything. Why are men being judged on a different scale? "Grow up so I can find you attractive" seems to be the same as saying "lose weight so I can find you attractive." Where does the role of acceptance of oneself and one's dates come into play?
The expectations women of today have of men, and the expectations that men of today have of women, are so far removed from what it used to be that it requires online dating sites to connect men and women looking for the prospect of marriage that will last. With the vast majority of marriages of today resulting in divorce, we should not be surprised that men (and women) now continue to prefer to live in their own little universe.It doesn't require marriage to have children, if that is what a person wants, and it is a lot less stressful than constantly working to keep a failing marriage going. These are not the days of our parents and grand parents where people got married and stayed married for the most part. What we should do is admire the people who made marriage work and consider ourselves lucky if we find "the one" we want to live with for the rest of our lives. That does not, however, imply that marriage is involved.
Woman should be more accepting of men today. The chips are staked against men in our culture.
Men are seen as the "predator" and females as the "prey." This bias must be stopped and was created by the feminists in the 70's. Until honesty and balance are restored in the American culture their are no winners here.
America will be weaken as result of a progressive movement created in a confrontational environment that spawned racial ideas in the 70's. For a an 'accepting society" that Americans claim be lets start with accepting the idea that woman and men need to re-discover that responsibly begins with both of the sexes.
Ms. Hymowitz,
I apologize. I was unaware that this was a chat when I made my previous comments. I am a 26-year-old professional male who is an exception to your claims.
However, I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of today's 20-something males, though it lacks an accurate, and necessary assessment of today's 20-something females. It seems to me, and I'd like your opinion, that these immature, directionless "manchildren" represent something of a bridge for women between adolescence and adulthood.
In adolescence, women are more concerned about fun, popularity, sex, and acceptance. Come adulthood, they become more concerned about stability, careers, respect, and families... a pretty big leap.
The manchild doesn't require the responsibility and work of an actual child, but still requires direction, motivation, and provides some stability. At the same time, and, unlike a child, he attracts friends, provides acceptance, and satisfies banal needs. Seems to me that the manchild would be the perfect bridge between a teenage female and a family female, and that's why he's developed. In other words, I feel this may be a biological response on the women's part, which men have addressed in order to net more wormen. What would you say?
Regardless of whether of not you agree with Ms. Hymowitz, she is describing a sociological shift that has developed over the years. Although her article more so attacks males, most of her arguments may be applied to either gender. There are still many females today that attend college more to shop for their husbands than to be educated for a greater independent economic purpose. There needs to be no pointing of fingers at either gender, as they both have their flaws. Feminism has brought woman an "equal" playing field in the sense of political, social, and economic fields, and in itself, feminism has changed the definition of marriage. Just watch Mad Men and you can see how marriage has become less of a demand for woman to gain a sense of stability, because now, a woman can succeed independently. Does that take away men's importance? Men and women need each other. It is human nature to seek companionship in a life partner. Women, GENERALLY, have just been proven to develop and mature at a faster rate than men.
I look at the world that we have now and I am so glad to be old.
First, there is no monopoly by either sex on immaturity in their 20s. Second, positing women as being required to be the socializing influence in society is just trying to move society back to the dark ages.
Just wanted to let you know that I loved the article and your vision of "the problem" which is absolutely a reality. Keep writing on the subject. best of luck and success.
I wanted to add an insightful comment but my mates just IM'd me to hop on XBox for another round of Call of Duty:Black Ops, so it will have to wait until the GF brings home pizza btwn cycles at the laundry.
Dont mean to rant, but I know plenty of smart women in their 20s/30s who have degrees, decent jobs, etc., and who do little otherwise than talk about television, shopping, food, and other women of course.
My wife and I have commented on what appears to be a lack of adult male characters in movies. Strong men who treated women with respect (even when sending them to the slammer). And we suave. [Is suave still part of the vocabulary?]
Characters like those portrayed by Humphrey Bogart, Gregory Peck, Alan Ladd, Jimmy Stewart, Gary Cooper, Burt Lancaster, Kirk Douglas, Cary Grant. Compared to today's male actors who do not convey maleness or adulthood. Try thinking of Leonardo DiCapro in High Noon, or Brad Pitt in Casablanca. How about Matt Damon in North By Northwest.
Stop laughing.
Do you think that a lack of masculine fictional role models at least partly accounts for the eternal adolescence of some young males?
You know procreation and even raising children no longer requires men, just their sperm. We can get all the genetic diversity our genome needs and solve the problem of raising children without men. It's kind of a strange science fiction idea, but if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem.
Doesn't this go back to sex education? Girls are taught to use protection and be promiscuous - so the boys never grow up! Young men are given the option - grow up and be mature or live another 10 years on "Jersey Shore." The only question is, "why the surprise?" Feminism freed men from the social responsibility. We don't need to be responsible because they want to be in charge. Girls are encouraged to act badly and the little boys love it!
After these"women" have thoroughly eviscerated anything MALE, and turned every guy into a sniveling emotional crybaby, they then have the nerve to ask "where have all the men gone?".
It started during WW2, when women started working in large numbers, that's where all these problems with a lack of men started.
Divorce going up, no good male role models for young boys, almost all father figures in sitcoms portrayed as bumbling oafs where the mother is portrayed as the voice of reason and the cement that binds the family together.
The rise of women? Ha, there is still a big fat glass ceiling. It's funny that this "expert" can judge whether or not men in their 20s' conduct is acceptable.... Guess what-- men do not care what women think.
I found the article sexist, oversimplified, and perpetuating the struggles of young men in America. First women told us to be more sensitive and to empower them. Then when society became flattened and homogenized we see this horrible piece of writing saying that single men in their 20s are somehow less responsible and committed...somehow not as "good" as married men in their 20s. The author clearly has not been around the IPhone obsessed, entitled, Hollywood brainwashed twenty something women (I figure the author will like this over generalization since she is so fond of using them). I have no intent or desire to marry any woman who has not had time to grow and develop into her own person. I don't think this happens until late twenties or early thirties. I also have no desire to get married until I am 35 or 40. Consider me a bad man and proud of it. Two of my female friends have already divorced (and remarried) their "good" men. I opted out of that experience for a more adult and permanent relationship. In the meantime, yes, I am having fun and making sure that when I do get married I am driving towards my life's passion and not laden in a society expected early marriage. How adolescent of me.
As a single childless male in his mid-30's, I have an obligation in life to make sure I'm not a burden on society and to earn an honest living. That's it. I'm not obligated to fulfill romance novel fantasies. And if chasing after large-breasted college girls on the beach for flings is what rocks my boat, so be it. No guilt nor apologies.
I am a 30 year old woman and was delighted to see the article express the sad state of my generation so well. 100% of my single friends have graduate degrees from top universities. The single men my age still go around on skateboards or express an interest only in boring school teacher types. I agree with many of the other comments, women are now raised to take care of themselves and men are not afforded that type of life lesson from their parents anymore. I know too many men whose mothers still clean their apartments for them. Last time I asked my parents for any help, I was on crutches.
As an extremly envolved Father of four at age 26 working fulltime and going to school to finish up the BA I can'tthink of a label that applies to me less. That being said the label still applies to an increasingly large number of the guys I work with at the butcher shop. In all honesty I think it belies a lack of confidence in their own abilities as long term providers for both perspective wives and children.
What does this cultural phenomenon mean to the real estate market?
Some of my thoughts can be found here:
You certainly make some good points early on ... though I would argue it's not only the US male who is living in an extended adolescence, but the US 20-something in general who takes much longer to grow up. Obama's extension of parents' healthcare benefits for their children to age 26 will help to keep this in place.
One thing I don't understand is why you use movies as if these are real life examples of a trend in society. Claiming a trend, and then using movies as evidence of the trend, saps credibility from your argument. Go out and meet some real people, who are actually experiencing this kind of thing - beyond the handful of unnamed, random women you claim agree with you.
How can you, for example, possibly back up this statement: Today, most men in their 20s hang out in a hybrid state of semi-hormonal adolescence and responsible self-reliance.
Is there a study about this somewhere? Is this just your opinion?
It's been my experience of 33 years that the majority of men of my generation and demographic are responsible, intelligent, ambituous providers, who are expected to take on the responsibility of providing for the wife and children. Most women I know step out of the workforce once they have children, leaving it to the husband to provide. And I live in New York, not Kansas.
I have a feeling this is the reality for millions of Americans, and that what youi're describing is more of an exception to the rule, or perhaps a thinnly diguised attempt to convey your bitterness toward men over past disappoinments.
For those serious guys that can't find serious women their own age, there is a solution: marry an older woman. Worked for me: married at 25 to a woman 6 years older - still married 15 years later with two kids.
I am a 47yo male and continually wonder where the traditional gentleman has gone. There is nothing wrong with decent values and respect, it can build character.
Having children does not adulthood make...for evidence of that I propose this author watch America's newest TV hit "teen mom". I'm 29, have no desire to have children and I proffer that I am more of adult than those kids can ever aspire to be. Article is a joke
Here is my two cents.
There is nothing crazy about this phenomenon. Women are designed to be efficient and effective and that is a good thing. Women should be racking in the money. That way I can spend more time on things I enjoy. There is no reason for men to settle down with one woman unless he is religious. Women are made for reproducing and working hard so that men can have more free time and relax.
The only reason the marriage age has increased is because people don't need to marry to have intercourse anymore. 40 years ago it was taboo to have intercourse before marriage. Men could only get some if he got married. After he had a few kids he realized that he has to grow up to raise the kids. Now that it is not taboo to have intercourse before marriage; men are not getting married. It is too easy these days to leave a girl that starts getting annoying. What's the point in getting married to a girl when I can move on to a better looking one after a few years.
Women are designed to be hard workers. I promote them making more than me. It is much nicer when a woman can support her own expenses and the rest of the family. That way the man won't have such a stressful life and can spend more time on hobbies.
This is the way it is supposed to be. I'm not worried. I would be worried if Author Kay S. Hymowitz was my wife. She wouldn't be for very long with an attitude like the one she has.
Here is my two cents.
There is nothing crazy about this phenomenon. Women are designed to be efficient and effective and that is a good thing. Women should be racking in the money. That way I can spend more time on things I enjoy. There is no reason for men to settle down with one woman unless he is religious. Women are made for reproducing and working hard so that men can have more free time and relax.
The only reason the marriage age has increased is because people don't need to marry to have intercourse anymore. 40 years ago it was taboo to have intercourse before marriage. Men could only get some if he got married. After he had a few kids he realized that he has to grow up to raise the kids. Now that it is not taboo to have intercourse before marriage; men are not getting married. It is too easy these days to leave a girl that starts getting annoying. What's the point in getting married to a girl when I can move on to a better looking one after a few years.
Women are designed to be hard workers. I promote them making more than me. It is much nicer when a woman can support her own expenses and the rest of the family. That way the man won't have such a stressful life and can spend more time on hobbies.
This is the way it is supposed to be. I'm not worried. I would be worried if Author Kay S. Hymowitz was my wife. She wouldn't be for very long with an attitude like the one she has.
To TX MOM,
I am a married (4yrs) 29 yo male with a university degree from TX, successful job, a mortgage, two dogs, etc. My wife and I still go out with people from the odious class of "pre-adults." We both have lots of single friends, and a fair number of married friends. If you were to only read this article you would probably have no reason to doubt the sincerity of your daughters words. However, what you don't know and what the author is scared to bring up is that there is a huge double standard.
Generally speaking, as the author states, many Modern women have been taught to be independent, self-reliant, and hard working so they can compete and exceed in competition in a "male" world - in essence, "girl power." However, these women also still believe in Cinderella and princesses (even though they may not realize it.) These things are not mutually exclusive or bad in themselves, but in the end you have a woman that sees men as an enemy/competitor and as a chivalrous stereotype.
As long as we are discussing stereotypes, It is unfortunate that due to dogmatic ideals, the author is not able to confront the equally large problem that is the modern "militantly independent post-adolescent, pre-cougar frantically searching for husband" meme. It is, of course, a contradiction.
It isn't only men in their twenties that continue to choose not to get married. My brother was married for four years to his High School sweetheart, divorced, and now married for a second time to another lady, who was also divorced once. And he is 29. I am 38, have never been married, own my own modest home, make a good living and have all the toys to prove it. I had a live-in girl friend for nearly five years during my twenties and all she wanted was to get married and have kids. Since then I have experienced the girl-friend experience with a number of young women, sometimes a different one, more than once a week. I have found it better to have lots of lady friends rather than to settle down to the stress that other men find in marrying one. I would happily share my life with any of the women I now consider friends, when I get ready to settle down to married life. I have yet to find even one compelling reason to give up my successful life, unmarried, for a life of marriage with all its constraints. All I have to do is look around at all my High School and College buddies who have been married and divorced, paying through the nose in child support. I have no doubt that I will marry, someday, but I see no reason why guys shouldn't remain unmarried for as long as they want to.
I can't believe how unfounded so much of this is. The author actually uses movies and television to support her case. So many other factors influence the entertainment industry. During times of poor economy we seem to like "end of the world" movies, feel-good flicks, animation and slapstick comedy. So lately we are presented with so many doomsday movies, the King's Speech, Toy Story and Adam Sandler comedies. Does that mean an animated horde of angry, stuttering Sandlers will be descending on our planet with millions of pimply-faced bespectacled twentysomethings to impregnate our women and abscond with our playstations? The author's logic implies such, to infinity and bbbbbeyond.
Seems like the article is mistitled and the author has missed the point. The point here is that women need the attitude adjustment, not men. The rising marriage age is an irreversible phenomenon, caused by many factors, but it also makes sense, the lower divorce rate being just one reason. My father married in his teens. I married in my early twenties, and my son is still single at 26, with my blessing. The problem is too many twenty-something and younger females interested in starting families. The article/title is merely the author irresponsibly pandering to her target female audience and I'm guessing her motive is simply greed, hoping to sell more copies of this useless book.
A black young mailroom guy was criticized in my hearing by a young black receptionist for his lack of responsibility toward women, i.e., he played around. He told her, also in my hearing, "They way a woman acts, that's how I'm gonna treat her." We are criticizing men for being irresponsible, while putting women in the clear for behavior that enables and makes irresponsibility pay. How bout a little responsibility from young women? Why aren't young women demanding better behavior from men by acting with self respect? This is a subject I have not see discussed.
In a word, feminism. If women don't need a man to be complete, why become one?
Found this article very interesting, (I actually read the whole thing). I have heard this lament from many people and, as a man, felt like chiming in. It is true that men get mixed messages about masculinity in our modern society. What I think is missed in this article is the fact that marriage is hard and, seldom that we can see, fun. I can speak from experience-I am a 43 year old father of three, married for the last 21 years, and can say that the number one thing missing from my life is "fun". My money is never enough, my time is always taken up, my sex life is relatively non-existent, my "free" time is confined to the hour or so that I have at the end of the night after my wife has conked out, and I couldn't give you a decent answer if you were to ask me the question, "what's fun about your life?" If I had to do it over, would I get married and have kids-yes, he** yes. I love my kids, I love my wife, but a young man looking at my life is not going to be intrigued whatsoever and therein lies the rub. There is nothing sexy, or appealing, or fun, about the road I have taken. How can you sell that to someone who can pretty much get all the sex he needs from the all too willing female generation? I live my life waiting for the day I get to retire, if I ever make enough money to do so.
you clearly have no idea what you are talking about
this woman is clearly a dike who is the way she is because no guys wanted her in high school. guys have put food on the table for DECADES. its about time that women start helping out.
With all due respect women have been acting more and more like men over past 20 years. That is the main reason why real straight men do not want to get married. If women stopped worrying so much about their independence and spent more time being feminine then we wouldnt have any issue what so ever. Most women no longer are interested in romance. Men like romance more than women. So lack of romantic women leaves no choice but to fill up your time with unburdensome complications. Its really simple. Men are never the problem. We have been the same since the dark ages. Men really have not changed at all. Women have changed. Therefore. "WHERE HAVE ALL THE REAL FEMININE WOMEN GONE?" Are you for real. If women cant get someone to marry them thats not a reason to write a man bashing article. If a woman is not feminine enough to create a instinctive desire within a man wishing to buy her a ring and make her his wife then its not the mans fault. Most importanty I would like to state for a record that a woman who is too independent will not get a real man to marry her because she would leave nothing for him to do.
As far as going to vegas and playing videogames. Well its a free country. Men are better friends to each other than women are. Its useless to be jealous and spread this propaganda, especially since such trips are supporting the travel industry. Stop trying to control who we are hanging out with and who our advisors are. Its just none of your damn business.
I think most women are chasing the good guys away by forgetting what a real woman should be.
Todays women want the so much more than what our parents wanted when they looked for a man. Our mothers wanted a real man and real men were plentifull because it paid to be a real man just like it paid to be a real women. To them it was someone who would work while they raised kids, someone who would look out for them and kill themselves to support their family.
Women today want to prove their just as good as the men in their lives so much they no longer want a man to take care of them; in fact they want to be an EQUAL partner so they emasculate the men in their lives.
Men not only don't want that, they don't need it, so their opting out of the game. Oh sure they still want our bodies, and lets face it we want their bodies too, so we do have sex with them, so why would a guy want to marry one of todays modern women?
They already have it all. Notice they like to use our bodies when we're young, and even older men seem to have no trouble getting all the women they want in bed. Why would they want to marry one of them?
What's in it for them? Most marriages end in divorce anyway and the men get screwed financially. So their skipping the marriage part, they only want to have fun.
And if men don't get married by the time their past what would be OUR prime, their really just becomming more attractive to a lot of women becaue if they stayed single they have lots of money, no kids, and usually lots of attentive women who have only recently figgured out that there's a whole lot more fulfilling things to have in life than a great job and the satisfaction of not having ever had to put up with the inconveniences that accompany a traditional marriage.
I know lots of older women who would give it all up if the could just start over, get married and lead a boring life with lots of kids. Now their just going to grow old all by themselves, because no real men want old women, even in they have lots of money.
My question is where do you get off criticizing something you clearly know nothing about? I don't spend my time criticizing middle-aged women, yearning to feel beautiful, who leave their husbands and sleep with someone my age. Only to realize what a huge mistake it was but felt empty inside, even though their husbands do nothing but try to provide the best life for them as possible. Women! Always quick to do whatever a man says early on, and even quicker to start passing judgement once they feel comfortable. You should write about things you actually know, or the WSJ should fire you for a lack of journalistic integrity.
I have been giving this more thought and I want to include the fact that today's women don't know how to take care of a man. I can't tell you how many women I have met who complain about cooking and going to the grocery store, or doing laundry and then complain about still being single. Sexist? Not really. I do my fair share of all of those things but girls, the way to a man's heart is through his stomach. That is as true today as it was 200 years ago.
Also, the author sounds to me like she would be hard pressed to hop behind the wheel of a minivan and tote three young children to the grocery store and dentist, then on to swimming and soccer. Then go home and have dinner going while she waits for her husband to come home from work. I don't know how today's relationships work but, I think, what has held my family together and created a lasting relationship is the clear definition of roles that my wife and I share. I go out and make the money-at that point it is "our" money, not mine. My wife has stayed home for all the years she has been a Mom up until recently she took a part-time job to help cover the expenses of a kid in college and the economy killing my business. We are a team, she and I. I want to provide because I want to honor her-that's my job, hers is to hold down the fort and make it possible for me to do my job. Sounds like 1950's America huh? Well, it works. We make decisions together. We never do anything apart because we like each other and don't feed into what the media says we should be doing. It's been 21 years and I can't wait to see her when I get home. I don't think I would feel satisfied with myself if the roles were reversed-I would feel effeminate and useless, but that's me and my testosterone. For the guys who choose to go it alone and hang with their friends, I understand your hesitance but I gotta tell you, nothing will make you feel more like a man than fathering and raising your kids and watching them grow. Nothing will make you feel more like a man than taking on the role of provider for your family. Women need to let us do that if they want what I believe this author is looking for.
And finally guys, a couple of years in the service would do you good-I don't know about "making a man out of you" but it definitely puts you light years ahead of those weenie guys who never served.
It's women who have turned away from traditional female roles, who are now whining that there are few men, who want women, who have made the decisions they have. Why should men want to be with someone whose careers are like their own? It doesn't make sense. Why would they ever wish to have all the career issues to contend with when they come home from work? when you come home who want some emotion peace and quiet. And as society continues to change, into more sustainable cultural patterns, it's these same women who will discover that they are not leading the parade as they...like earlier generations of men...had assumed...they are following it. The new patterns of success...will require modern women to reexamine their unsustainable feminist assumptions...and woman-up! :-)
What do you expect when you feminize a society and cut the balls off every little boy for being a boy?
Vince, today's women don't want a traditional family, they don't want a man who works hard and they sure as heck don't want to raise you kids while you work.
Well I should temper that. They don't want that when their young and attractive, and can prove their just as good at earning a living as any man; but that all changes once they get to their 40's and realize that there's more to life than just proving their as good as any man.
Then they look at women like your wife and get envious. Suddenly they want a family too, and that includes a man like you who will love them forever, except by then their no longer attractive to most men, and their too old to have children so their screwed.
Then they get bitter and start blaming their problems on the lack of good men.
Well I got news for them, they chased the good ones away and now it's too late.
Whatever. Okay, here goes.
Regardless of what society we live in, or how we're raised, or what magazines we're reading in the doctor's office, we all make unconscious decisions of how we should conduct our lives, and the how the narrative of our lives will eventually play out. Thinking that you're part of some big "societal trend" doesn't alter the fact that you...especially in a generally free liberal democracy as the States...are the author of the consequences you are living with.
There are several black-hole sized flaws in this ridiculous article, and everyone's debate if man are being "feminized" or if feminism is making women "liberated" or "miserable."
One...women are NOT EQUAL. They STILL are being paid far less than men in equal roles, still have a minuscule representation in government and corporate boardrooms, still are more less second-class citizens in America. Read "Backlash" by Susan Faludi to help dispel the myth of the Feminist Run Amok. I would say feminism is in the Wright Brothers stage of flight. It's amazing women can fly, but we got a long way to go before women are gliding across the Atlantic. (I hope that metaphor wasn't too mixed and muddled, yikes).
Two: Just what the devil does "Being grown up" or "Being adult" mean? Does it mean raising kids? Not playing video games and eating sugary cereals? Does it mean wearing pressed clothes and acting stoically? Look people...everyone has their own style. I would say a "grownup" is simply someone who is supporting themselves, or being an active part of an independent support system (such as being a university student or staying at home to raise kids). That's it. It's just taking full responsibility for your actions, and being a productive member of your community. So if that entails wearing Return of the Jedi T-shirt and playing World of Warcraft all night, so be it. You got a job, or are in school, so why should you let anyone dictate your lifestyle to you?
The bottom line is that if you're so damn desperately lonely and want a husband/wife and/or a family...physician, heal thyself. Make yourself more accessible. Go to clubs and activities with people who share your interests. Make your body as fit as it can be. Man up or woman up and be more confident and flirty. If you're always sad, go to a therapist and attack that depression...it's a medical condition, just like diabetes or the flu.
Women: Keep fighting for equal rights. You have a LOOOONG way to go. Men: Find your style and GO WITH IT. Women find confidence and vision sexy and appealing.
I'm through with you jokers. GO LIVE!
This from NCR's Jennifer Fulwiler
I've seen debates like this before, and they usually degenerate into chicken-and-egg arguments about which gender's bad behavior sparked the bad behavior of the other. Each side has some valid points, but I think that the entire debate is centered on the wrong question. I suspect that it was not the behavior of one gender that ignited this current animosity between the sexes; rather, I think it started when we, together as a society, started redefining marriage and sexual morality.
When sex meant marriage, people got married earlier. When sex and marriage meant children, young men worked harder at younger ages to prepare to provide for a family. If a young man wasted his early 20s on inane pursuits, there were real consequences: he'd be viewed as irresponsible and a bad provider, and thus his opportunities for marriage (and therefore intimacy with a woman) would be drastically limited. Young women held men to higher standards. For them, a boyfriend wasn't just someone to "hook up" with (to use Klausner's parlance), but the potential future father of their children — and they expected him to act accordingly. And young women were motivated to shape up their behavior as well: a woman who didn't show any interest in the self-sacrifice and maturity required for marriage would have a hard time getting dates.
God knew what he was doing when he designed marriage. This system takes the worst tendencies of men and women and orders them so that serving one another in love benefits both ourselves and others. I fear that these "Where have all the good (wo)men gone?" debates will continue to be fruitless until we take a hard look at what we as a society have done to the millennia-old institution for uniting the sexes.
I think she's right, Divorcing Sex, Marriage and Children has it's consequences.
Nicely put. I hope your advice is heeded. I have met so many women like you described. They are so confused as to why a man doesn't just snatch them up like they were gold left lying around when the truth is really the bad news that you described. What guy, who is worthy of the name "man", would feel lucky to have a woman who "wears the pants", so to speak.
And to the ladies reading this, here's a secret you may be happy to hear...Men do not like women with bodies that look like 13 year old boys. I am not advocating obesity but some curves get our attention. so does smelling heavenly. So there you have it...cook something, awaken the hidden nurturer within, and let a man be a man and love him for it. Pretty simple, but so are men, when it comes right down to it.
Women have become so unwomenly (read so boorish and boring) that men don't find them attractive any more. That's the real reason why men prefer their toys over women! Maybe the author should think that there are always two sides to a coin and focus on exploring the other side as well. It would enrich her research if she's any seriousness about this topic. It seems a vain attempt to sell a book (which looks more like a gossip magazine to me from my first impressions) and that would not have gone off the racks otherwise.
Where have the good men gone ? I hear what your saying, it's hard to be a good man these days. There is so much out their that try's to keep us in our adolescence. I was born and raised in southern California, and am in my late thirty's. I am glad to be this age and remember a world without the web, without all these beer commercials while am trying to enjoy a game. But even that is hard too do lately, all the real men in sports have gone. It's now over run by boys who are trying to be more than what they deserve to be, to them it's all about me! me! me! and that's just one example. It go's on in politics, education, religion, work, and so on and so on. I didn't have that many role models......but their where some. The boys of today have it much harder to be men now than I did back when I was a young man. It's kinda like men are afraid to be themselves, scenario a group of men hanging out for lunch and drinks. Everyone puts in his order and your next....do you tell the waitress that you'll just have a salad cause your watching your weight or just order what the guys have ordered so not to be laughed at. I could write a book of why guys are not REAL MEN anymore..but I'll leave it at this....I've always marched to the beat of my own drum and am not saying am better than other men.........but come on guys MAN-UP !!!!
Maybe women just need to loosen up a bit and relax. There's no fun in being serious and compassionate and sensitive the ever fluctuating emotions of women.
Women are much freer now sexually. With rapidly expanding career opportunities more young women don't feel the pressure to find a man to support them well. They can do this themselves and don't need a man until they want children. They have the relatively new advantage of more advanced birth control, so they can play around before settling down to have children. This of course is welcomed by most men. You've heard the old saying, "why buy a cow if you can get the milk for free?" Well, that's the crux of the problem ladies. You're all having so much fun giving away the "milk" for free, men don't want to buy the "cow" any more. It all boils down to sex. Men want it, now women are willing to provide it with little or no responsibility demanded in exchange. That's it. Really can't blame the guys much. They're just taking advantage of a situation their forefathers could only dream of. Their forefathers had to marry to get sex.
I find myself confused by the statement "Women can't attract younger men", I've been greatly attracted to older women since I was 10 years old, and considering I've been sexually active since I was 13 and am now 35 and have yet to be involved with a woman younger than me, I think that theory need to be revisited.
I agree that young men are in crisis, and are expressing this by prolonged infantilism. Perhaps if they had fathers instead of stepfathers or nofathers, this might be different. I'm a little tired of hearing women criticize men after forty years of high-gain feminism and the near reversion of the American family pattern to a fatherless assembly of women and their children. In other words, you (emancipated females) have had a major hand in creating this generation of infantile losers which now represents "the future". Perhaps boys might grow into better men if their "father figures" were more impressive than hung-over hookups calling them "little dude". Ultimately this is a problem for men to solve, and I don't think that meeting some woman-set goals will be part of the solution, any more than meeting man-set goals met any of the problems of female life in 1955. I doubt that the generation of infantile louts now infesting the USA is capable of solving much of anything, though. Check back in fifty years, I guess.
Once upon a time, we were like chimpanzees still are now. Females would go into heat at ovulation and males would line up to be sperm donors. After, males were otherwise less interested in females and would go back to hanging with males while females would raise their young on their own perhaps with shared food and that they gathered. For reasons still unclear, females went from this estrus cycle to a menstrual cycle. This meant that females were constantly in heat and males followed suit. When and where orgasm entered in is also lost to prehistory but this insured an interest in reproductive activity. Males started competing against each other for females. Those who could offer protection, food, and care for the young were those who gained access. So, the strongest & most aggressive males were the ones most likely to reproduce. This is the general basis of theories of evolution and gene fitness. There are some who have come forward to question if this is how things went. There is some evidence that the earliest religion may have worshiped the Great Mother, a female deity, but most anthropologists agree that while there are matrilines, there has never been a full-fledged matriarchy. In any case, the improving of our genes through selection led to an aggressive homo sapiens (who may have killed off his neanderthal brother) and forged the coming of cities, agriculture, private property, division of labor, defense, warfare, patriarchy, and civilization. With civilization, muscles and good-looks were still important but so was money, wealth, status, and power. Add to this aggression and selfishness, because if a man is selfish and doesn't care about protocol and the rules of society, he will be a survivor. And this is what women are looking for, men who will lead and take charge (of them--no equality between the sexes, just dominance & submission), give orders, not take them, men who don't care what others think and will just act ruthlessly, even violently, one who will protect them from all the weird other creeps out there, who is strong, good-looking, rich, respected, and can feed both her & her children. Those who can provide all these things get rewarded with a lot of sex. This is the kind of man women want when they ask men to Man Up or are looking for Real Men. The problems are these: 1) civilization is a co-operative venture, our evolutionary heritage of aggression and violence don't really belong, and may lead to the nuclear war that ends the human race; 2) women, by still insisting & mating with this kind of man, just insure that every generation is filled with more alpha male jerks; 3) men just want to have sex without all the drama, the need to dominate, the hoops to jump through, they want to be less responsible and take it easy and have fun, and if sex becomes too hard to obtain, then it's easier to masturbate to porn and have a quality orgasm without having to deal with marriage, children, relationships, and the whole mess. So...if we are to ever have a calm, quiet, peaceful, civilized world, women have to stop looking for alpha males and rich, strong status guys to dominate them. We can feed everybody, we can take care of everybody's kids, we don't need the strongest genes to be selected. So ladies, give men & humanity a break, start sleeping with everybody, sleep with geeks & nerds & wusses, they are people too & want sex just as much as quarterbacks. Don't insist on adult, responsible behavior. That just leads to all of us working hard for a living to make profits for an elite. Capitalism & class society would end in one day if women became promiscuous. We'd all go back to living in grass huts and having sex all day long with everyone in a big collective mass as we should have all along. Life would be adolescence, fun, & irresponsibility. If men are choosing to stay boys who blames them. They don't like the world they're born into with all its work, roles, and expectations. Women are still hot & men still want them but sex is no longer the reward for being men that it once was. For most it's too hard & too much trouble. And ironically, some are saying that it's too easy. Come on now. Women do not want or have sex as frequently as men would have them have sex if it were up to them. Some men will go through the hoops and become the real men women want so they can have access to sex and pass on their genes. But today's men find it too much effort for not that much thrills. Unless it comes easy for them naturally, most guys, though frustrated, find other paths to pleasure and take them. Good for them. Becoming an adult is hardly what it's cracked up to be. Stress, office, worry. Blah. Is your woman having an affair? Is your child yours? Is one woman enough & can you pull off both wife & mistress? Will you get that raise so you can buy your wife that thing she wants so you can stay in her good graces? To hell with it. This crap needs to come to an end and our 20 years olds are starting to get that. Women are baby-making machines. Every month their body prepares for pregnancy & when it doesn't happen, it's like a failure. But we have 7 billion people on the planet now & are facing a near future of 10 billion. We can't sustain that. Women need to re-think their entire agenda vis-a-vis men. The alpha has to go. The beta is what we want to encourage. Meek, quiet, peaceful. We need less folks over all & we'll get them sadly by war wiping most of them out not by tying our tubes as we should. Culture thus far has been about survival but not about pleasure. That too has to change. There's not enough hetero sex & women are never satisfied because they always want a better man than they have. I realize that women consider boy-men as children & have a hard time finding them sexy. The boy-man gets that too. He knows he isn't getting action but it's a choice he makes because doing the things it takes to become a man are just such nonsense. The boy-man wants his cake & to eat it too. In a sense, he's on strike. He's opted out of society & its demands on him.
I think its very misleading that you are not using a picture of yourself.. all due respect..
The difference between men now and fourty years ago is that there is no draft. Previously men got drafted right out of high school and did their two years. They came back as men. I don't want men to get killed in war, my own brother died that way, but I have to admit that two years of dicipline in this undisiplined society would benefit everyone. I also believe that would elliminate alot of gang problems.
40 years ago a collective decision was made to push 'minorities' ahead of white males in order to acheive 'equality'. White males are discriminated against at every turn. In college, it seems as we're the only ones who get zero 'freebies'. We often don't get hired and/or passed-over for promotions by less qualified 'minorities'. You 'minorities' wanted to take charge and that's happened...why do you think the economy will never-ever return us to the standard of living of the 'pre equality' era? Why should white males make an effort?
What about the idea that we encourage men and women to NOT pursue prolonged adolescence and frittering away those vital years solely on self-centered pursuits. Rather, expect (and train) them become responsible, virtuous adults by around their 20th birthday, find a mate, get married early, buy a house, and raise children. By the time they are in their mid-40's, the kids are out of the house, they are mature and knowledgeable, and they have 30-40 good years left to live and pursue new things (more education, new career paths, etc.). Why wait around and waste your best years living solely for yourself? I think the longer one does that, the more one's ability to have a successful and fulfilling marriage (a selfless monogamous commitment for life) is hindered.
Hymowitz seems awfully quick to decide it's the rise of women that is responsible for a less desirable contemporary male. I would direct her to a college bar on a busy Saturday night. There she would witness the other major contributing factor: Indiscreet, cheap and mostly stupid (although quite college-educated) women whoring themselves around for fun. Isn't it obvious that half the reason men are a shadow of previous generations is because our quarry has significantly lowered the barriers to success? If our fathers needed grooming, stability and panache to hook a mate, our generation needs only an open bar tab. The author argues that Hugh Hefner is a responsible party in the degradation of the male. I would counter that Gloria Steinem is a greater culprit. When women burned their bras it was supposed to be a symbol of female empowerment. I would suggest it was just an invitation to stare even more indiscreetly at their chests.
In my experience, our generation's women fall quite neatly into a few categories. The first would be those cheap girls I mentioned who are as uninhibited as most men, perhaps more so, and are concerned primarily with attracting a temporary mate, a goal achieved quite easily by wearing lingerie and drinking to excess. The other group would be women who place their careers ahead of finding a mate in so vehement a fashion as to frighten away most men. The other, and perhaps most disconcerting group, are women who desire a career, a husband, children, a summer home and the envy of all her friends--all before age 32. These women often engage in despicable behavior in order to achieve those results, like "accidentally" becoming pregnant. There are very good women sprinkled in throughout--women who want marriage and kids but understand the natural pace of these things and that "having it all" is often a most unsatisfying state of being, particularly when it arrives so early on in life.
Of course, I'm not excusing men altogether--I am overtly critical of the contemporary male, occasionally at the risk of sounding moralist. But it''s not morals in which I'm interested--it's responsibility for our collective image. I do not care if some men decide to be bachelors to the grave; I just prefer they do it with a bit of class. I conjectured just the other day that by the time my kids are "adults" they will view marriage as a rather quaint arrangement--we already suffer something like a 60% divorce rate in the western world. I personally think this is a pity, but I'm certainly not going to foolishly try and resist the rising tide. If asked, I would suggest this though: A life led without a partner of some sort is not one that fully realizes the human condition.
o 10:59 am February 24, 2011
o Lathe of Heeven wrote:
"She has already responded to many of those comments in a subsequent Ideas Market blog post, "
Well, no, sorry. In her brief reply Ms. Hymowitz has not responded at all to the comments engendered by the original article. Rather, she has simply dismissed them with a weak ad-hominem attack, refusing abjectly to face the substance of the criticism and foolishly "doubling down" on her own misconceptions.**I award her zero points, and we are all the more foolish for having given her this much attention.**
Emphasis mine. Anyone who paraphrases a line from an Adam Sandler movie in order to prove a point in this argument undermines his own point 100%.
i actually stumbled onto one of the most ridiculous and actually somewhat poignant responses to Hymowitz's article this morning. It's about some dating thing, IvyDate (google "good men lost found," its the first thing that comes up). They actually make a fairly good point, in that there are a ton of men out there that are on the move, doing things with their lives. Widen your horizons, Kay
I comment from the perspective of one whose grandchildren (M&F) are in the 20s range discussed.
It is probably transient for them, but the entire (urbanized) generation M&F is somewhat concentrated on self-gratification. M&F experience that differently. For the males the period of adolescence has been an experience of freedom from external responsibilities coupled with the "normal" self absorbtion that yields the max of self gratification. For the females, it has probably been the achieving of ever greater independence, and using that as a route to better self gratification.
Apparently it is taking a bit longer, and more tries, for various individuals to resolve their self gratification "needs" in some mutual or sublimated form; and, it has been know to persist for a lifetime.
Kay – the question should also ask; where are all the virtuous women gone? Remember, it's a woman's nation. Also worth noting is the perception that love, kindness, mercy etc., are perceived as weaknesses in our so-called 'real world or mainstream' communities.
Ms. Hymowitz did an excellent job of dodging the important parts of each question, especially from guys.
When asked about why a man would want to wait for a woman who is 30 and has slept with half the city, she pretty much restates his question as an answer. When asked why women shut their legs for well-paid computer programmers, she criticizes his choice of words without answering the question. WHen asked where all the good women have gone, she claims not to want to assign blame - yet the original article is about men's failure to provide family life for women.
When it was poitned out that men adapt to what women reward with sex, she claims that women still try to "civilize" men, even if they hate the effort - yet the point of the question was that women are rewarding men for refusing to be civilized.
Basically, with the xception of some minor concessions that "some strains of" feminism may have gone too far, she is completely unwilling to admit that any man may be making a rational choice. She also fails to point out any incentive for an individual man to marry, or call on women to be responsible, either.
Men aren't perfect, but Ms. Hymowitz seems to believe the entirety of the "problem" is men's doing, despite giving no convincing argument that the declining state of marriage even is a problem.
William Johnson:
40 years ago a collective decision was made to push 'minorities' ahead of white males in order to acheive 'equality'. ------- in spite of that, look at the list of Fortune 500 CEOs and point out to me the ones who are NOT white males.
White males are discriminated against at every turn. In college, it seems as we're the only ones who get zero 'freebies'. We often don't get hired and/or passed-over for promotions by less qualified 'minorities'. You 'minorities' wanted to take charge and that's happened…why do you think the economy will never-ever return us to the standard of living of the 'pre equality' era? Why should white males make an effort? ------the quality of living was given to you by the large underclass of minorities who took all the jobs that "you" didn't want, and by the lack of competition from women who didn't take "your" jobs because "you" wouldn't let them be educated.
As an older male who grew up in the men provide culture, I do find it disconcerting to see so many single men and women who seem to live rather shallow lives. I travel in my work and even live apart from my wife much of the time. This gives me ample opportunity to observe the hoards of single somethings. What distresses me is the coarsness of the conversations coming out of the mouths of supposedly educated people. Most seem to be dumbed down having few interests other than hanging out and playing with their I Phones. Among the crowd you can sense some really don't want to be there. Being an old dude, and not on their attention scale, I sit and listen and observe. I get the sense that some women are looking for something or someone with substance. They seem to have no fulfillment. They make a lot of money and have good jobs but are not really happy. I get the feeling from young men that their lives lack purpose. They hang out, have friends but generally are shallow. You really want to ask both sexes if they even read the newspapers or if they are literate. I really do feel sorry for them. They haven't experienced anything any better than what they have and therefore strive for nothing. In short they seem to exist in a world lacking of substance.
Thanks to the Progressive movement – woman have become commodities in that a good man is determine based on his pocket, not his values, literacy etc., just 'de bare old green-back'. "Get money …."
If this article had been written by a man, it would instantly have been labelled as infuriating, sexist and discriminating by women. The tiring clichee of men blaming their failure to grow or succeed on the emerging strength of woman is not only insulting, but a rather embarrassing attempt at self-glorification and vengance.. Coming to speak of it: What exactly is the overused term "strong woman" supposed to mean in the first place?
In my various relationships, I have met a lot of really strong women. They were women from all walks of life, housewives and mothers, artists, employees. Many of them had a charisma, a strenghth and endurance, a power in what they did that generated a lot of respect and admiration in me. I would have instantly given them the "strong woman" or even "stronger than me"-medal or honoration if such a thing everv existed.
But none, and I mean positively none, ever would have labelled herself a "strong woman". They were strong human beings, period, and they also knew and felt it. They did their thing, as women , naturally, and that fact was part of the the very nature and shape of what they did and how they did it. But the foremost did their thing as people, as human beings.
Now, two of my relations happened to be with the sort of woman that had a sign "attention, strong women" tucked to their foreheads. They were millitant, aggressive and overexplicitely "emancipated" in every single thing they did. Every single one of their actions was an attempt to prove temselves against men, every criticism was dismissed as an attempt to "disempower" them, or worse, as a sign of weakness or jealousy of their "power". And I can assure you that not only were they unlivable and tedious to be with, but one of those two persons just described had the power of the great women mentioned before.
See, the problem some women clearly have is that men won´t fit the projection of their ideal. Men are more than what you women want them to be, just as women cannot be reduced to whatever we want or expect or even need from you. It it not the job of either sex to please and fullfill the other´s expectations and projections that , to a large extent, come from childhood conflicts, disappointments and hurts.
Stop blaming men for not fitting your imaginary ideals and expectations, rather, question your own expectations and start searching for what´s missing in your lives and hearts inside of you first.
The last thing we ever will become is the ideal men – for the simple reason that this very idea of the perfect male existes only in your mind, just as part of growing up for us as well as you means starting to realize the difference between the women in flesh and blood and the sexual or idealistic phantasies. And what´s more -we men are free to travel any path we please to find fulfillmernt, and I find it rather arrogant to state that an academic career and financíal success or marriage are the absolute proof of achieved manhood.
We cannot and will not become and reduce ourselves to what you expect or want us to be without betraying everything else that we are . We can be excellent husbands, fathers, lovers, friends etc, but only when we realise our own potential and achieve it for the love of it and ourselves, but not to please you women.
The war of the genders is a war that should not have been fought in the first place, but as it´s been started long ago, let me just say than it cannot be won if one of us loses it, we can only stop it or win it together if we ever are to find some peace on that level and subject. And as anothrt poster rightly stated: Manhood is not to be determined by women. The sort of men that will fit the bill you demand and moulds into the sort of manhood that women have defined as best will not be a man anymore, but rather a male version of feminine phantasies.
Traditional girls do get decent guys, and being a mom and housewife isn't nearly as bad as getting old alone and without a family.
When modern girls are taught they are just as good as men and can prove it by being career women they are being screwed for life by the very women who are claiming they are liberating them.
How many of these advisors are lesbians? How many are so alone when they get older that they try to get any guy they can to father children with them, even much younger guys? How many resort to adoption long after their too old to have kids? How many spend their last 40 years bitter, alone and lonely, with no husband, no family and practically nothing to live for but the big bucks they earned by being bitches their whole lives.
How many everntually say they would trade it all for another chance to do it over and just get married and be a traditional wife?
Modern women put down traditional wives, while their young and attractive, and then spend the rest of their lives in regret.
No that you can't find a guy, tell me again how stupid I was for letting my hard working husband bring home the money while I made a great home for him and raised our kids. I might not have a great career, but I have had a great husband and will have one until the day one of us dies, and you have NOTHING!
And you have the gall to bitch at me because you waited until you were unattractive physically and emotionally before you even tried to find a decent guy?
Tell me, just what is it about you that you think would be attractive to a DECENT guy? Is it all the money you make, or made? Decent guys have their own money. Is it your great body? Decent guys attract younger women than you, so why do they need your flabby body?
This issue is getting overhyped.
Male and female DNA is the same as it's always been. There's always been sensitive men, buffoonish men, golddigging women, masuline-y women, etc throughout history. And there's nothing wrong with any of it.
Just try to meet someone that you like and who likes you back -- it's real simple. Not necessarily easy, but simple. Blaming society is a cop out.
This lady is just trying to sell books.
Social "trends" are a in part racket sold by the media. Don't let the media define what "the culture" is. Create your own culture, your own family. Don't believe the hype. It's up to you -- not the WSJ -- to decide what kind of man or woman you want to be. And then once you do, accept it and live with it. This kind of alarmist literature has been around for centuries (read up on the "demon rum" crusaders in the 1800s, puritanism, yellow journalism). There's nothing new going on here.
Look, the article is titled "Where Have the Good Men Gone?" Some of you, very few, have shown us that you are good men and someof you are just using this comments section as a sounding board for your short comings in life. So you have a good practice and have fought for our country, which is greatly appreciated. So you feel the feminist movement has caused problems for todays women. This is to be used as your shining moment, MEN, to assure us women, great women, that there are good men out there. Instead you have further confirmed why they are impossible to find.
"Previously men got drafted right out of high school and did their two years. They came back as men. I don't want men to get killed in war, my own brother died that way, but I have to admit that two years of dicipline in this undisiplined society would benefit everyone. I also believe that would elliminate alot of gang problems."
That's the most obscene statement I've read in a long time. The idea that war is somehow a civilizing activity is appalling. War is one of the most disgusting, uncivilized things that human beings do. There is nothing good that comes from it. You say you don't want men to "get killed in war," but that's precisely what war is ABOUT. There is no other goal! If anything the mass wars of the 20th century have hurt men, not helped them. There's a lot of other places where people can learn discipline than the military.
I am just a loyal AoM reader I also read a WSJ journal article every week. I work at a family business times are tight but I have not touched the money I have saved up to buy a house, I regularly attend and volunteer at my church. I read, biographies, the news, and a mixture of fiction for fun. I regularly hang out with my friends. I do not smoke I drink only a few times a year and only a couple of beers at that. I have a Nintendo WII which I purchased because my uncle has Parkinson's and research shows video game systems like the Nintendo WII have helped people who suffer from Parkinson's.
* Norma wrote:
Look, the article is titled "Where Have the Good Men Gone?" Some of you, very few, have shown us that you are good men and someof you are just using this comments section as a sounding board for your short comings in life. So you have a good practice and have fought for our country, which is greatly appreciated. So you feel the feminist movement has caused problems for todays women. This is to be used as your shining moment, MEN, to assure us women, great women, that there are good men out there. Instead you have further confirmed why they are impossible to find."
Norma, you obviously did not understand any of the great and eloquent male statements here on this board. Nor does it sound like you really want to or ever will. What the hell makes you think that the men who rightly get angry at this hideous article and take the trouble to write about their feelings at length on this board have "shortcomings" in their lives"?? Your assumptions and self serving statements alone tell more about you than you might like.
It´s sadly women like you who poison the already difficult communication between the genders even more. Good luck finding a man who endures you.
The joys of the change in lifestyle brought by feminism. You have the increase in the educationla levels os women at the expense of the decrease in the access to education for men. You have the economic and social distortions of child-bearing and divorce that impose a massive and permanent burden on men -- not seeing their child, forced to pay disproportionate amounts of relative income in "child support" and alimony -- that also negates any future relationships as well. Unequal access to employment because of the male gender -- and particularly if white and hetrosexual. The last half century has brought society around to the last centuries again. It is clear that those 20 somethings, like those in the 1700s and 1800s, should be looking for that 50 or 60 year old guy who managed to survive all the problems of society and get to be at that state where there might be some stability in his life.
So Kay Hymowitz freely admits that young women are sending out confusing and contradictory signals about what they are looking for in a man and that the problem is clearly that young men aren't being adults? Why is this not a discussion about the chaotic, confused and utterly unrealistic expectations of the huge majority of young women that I meet and date? Ms. Hymowitz states in this interview that she thinks men will adapt to what women want - Is she not then assigning power to women and the blame to men? Women get the men they deserve. Men sitting and home and playing video games is no worse than women sitting in a martini bar and having insipid, vacuous conversations about celebrity gossip; this is men adapting to the horrendous self-entitlement and gargantuan egos of modern, credentialed urban women. Quite simply, most women today aren't worth the spending any time with.
How do women think that it's either acceptable or realistic to slut it up for ten years and then find a good man (aka: rich, attractive, charming, kind, and generally perfect)? Essentially, these are two contradictory goals - someone needs to start explaining that to women. No, a good man does not want to marry the girl who's been around the block - he wants to marry the nice girl who hasn't given that samples away to everybody else for free. Even a brief examination of marriage statistics and the significant effect that past promiscuity has on increasing the chance of either divorce or extramarital affairs clearly shows that, even excluding health risks, sleeping around is not an intelligent thing to do if one wants some long term stability in his or her life.
Sex. That's the bottom line. More speficially, the availibility of commitment free sex that feminism has empowered men with. On one hand, you have plenty of women for men to sow their wild oats with, have fun, go to dinner, and have sex with. On the other hand, once a man is established in his early thirties, he is hitting his best years, he has a huge supply of family orientated young women that naturally yearn for human bonding, family and motherhood. Feminism created this awesome new society for men where we have easy access to sex with the "fun" girls and then easy access to women who want a family from an early age and don't have all the internal struggles of the so-called "modern" "empowered" "independent" "liberated" woman. I say thank you to feminism for this.
I need a women and am proud to admit it. Of course I do, I'm a man. Why is this so painstaking for some women to admit the same? Sorry, but "good" men have the freedom of choice not to settle for buying the cow, when the milk was handed out for free during a woman's most attractive years. Lol, why would a "good"desirable man with confidence and securirty want to settle when he cab have a beautiful young intelligent stable woman that is actually excited about hbeing a mother at a young age? Why??? Do women think about these things.
And the irony is that the "modern" woman who spent her best uears bed hopping and living her life as if she were writing the great american novel of the "single woman in the city" that will never be read by anyone, will be the same one who has to compete with the same type of 20- something women bed hopping and distracting potential suitors when her looks start to fade. Where are the good men? They are having sex with the "fun" 20 something that you once were. Life is about choices and trade offs. If you spent your best years using them to sleep with lots of men, then that's who are, and that's how you will be percieved by men who are ready to start a family. On the flip side, a woman that chooses to use her best years to find a "good man" misses out on the nsa sex with the artist, the promoter, the rich guy, the athlete, etc...
I guess the question is which is more imprtant in the long run? What is the value of all those "experiences" and "adventures" as feminists love to call them, when you are franly, old and undesirable and have no children to offer you their unconditional love. Its an intersting experiment taking place, and I have to say, I've already noticed som "moddern" single woman in their 50's and 60's and they are alone and it looks kinda sad to be quite honest. Imagine knowing that your best years are behind you and the men you adored and concentrated all your efforts on all have children or are with younger women. Is that really empowering?
I'm kind of shy about posting here, but the original artical really got to me. Instead, I posted my reaction to another forum catering to Indian Ladies
My rambling may have gone off on a tangent, but somehow I think you will find the responses interesting.
Honestly, this whole conversation is bull. Obviously, Kay hit a nerve and is making money off of writing to do so. Big deal, men in their 20's are living free lifestyles. What is so great about going through the motions of going through school, getting a job, getting married, having kids, retiring, growing old, and dying all the time being nagged by some woman trying to be "responsible" by having diamonds, an expensive wedding, shoes, clothes, furniture, blah, blah, blah. If you ask me, materialism is rampant in females and that is what they seek from men. It's funny to me. I want my freedom as a woman to be like a man, all up to the point of where I want to be a woman and be pampered. Wait, what??? No, honey, if you want it, you work for it. Don't believe me? Just watch commercials, they are mainly targeted at women, who are traditionally the gatherers who will go out and spend the man's, the hunter's, money. Why the flip is that such a great deal??? Oh, and if she gets too upset, then she can divorce you and take half? Sign me up? No, thank you, please. I won't even enter the deal. That is way too much risk for me. Why not just get laid, have fun, and if things go south, walk away. Much, much, better deal. And please, like the woman wasn't consenting and having a good time, too. Quit your whining, Kay. It's pathetic.
Your portryal of Knocked Up is WAY off. The Heigl character lives off her sister, who is married to a successful man, and lives in their pool house. Where you got the part that she lives in a nice apartment with fresh linens, maybe it's because her brother-in-law paid for them. I stopped reading at that point because you obviously have some stored up aggression towards men. I can come up with just as many graphs showing just as many women doing the same thing in their 20's.
they're all either dead or maried
I love how she presents her personal opinion as fact. Perhaps if you were more selective in who you dated, this would be less of an issue. Your narrow window of experience does not qualify you to condemn an entire population and frank;y, you are a disgrace to journalism. Good luck on your endeavors, I'm sure someone as intelligent as yourself will find a man of quality.
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