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Craig Wisner and I have been going back and forth via email about meeting up to do a double crossing of the Grand Canyon for a while now, a recent thread discussion led to this topic and it seems there is a growing interest amongst members in assembling this upcoming spring for a group run. All discussion and planning will take place within this thread, so click the "Watch this thread" hyperlink at the upper right corner to keep up to date. What: A double crossing or better known as "Rim to Rim to Rim" run in the Grand Canyon. 41-47 miles *(dependent on which route we decide to take down to the Colorado River and which route we decide to ascend on the return climb), 21,000+ft. of elevation gain/loss. This will be done in the fashion of a run/hike and will likely be a 12-16 hour day, this is NOT going to be an overnight or multiday trip, so an understanding of one's own fitness and limitations before signing up should be seriously weighed in your planning.When: Saturday, April 14th, 2012Where: Grand Canyon, AZ- South Rim (Start/Finish).Who: Anyone... *that understands the strenuous nature of doing a RRR in a single dayThose that have expressed interest at this point:Greg GresselThom DarrahCraig Wisner MyselfBrian BlairDave ChenaultGeorge MatthewsMike MooreBrendan SwihartArt MessierEric Payne Ben Wood Devon GowlerDan HewinsResources and stoke:Grand Canyon National Park Grand Canyon NP Trail DistancesAndrew Skurka- RRR Route and How To InformationultraRUNNING Magazine- Grand Canyon Basics: Rim to Rim to Rim ultraRUNNING Magazine- Fueling Rim to Rim to Rim in the Grand CanyonFastest Known Time- Women\'s Run Report (Devon Crosby Helms and Krissy Moehl)
Edited by Eugeneius on 11/18/2011 08:00:55 MST.
I'm definitely interested and will be waiting to see what dates ya'll come up with. If it works for me I'm in. I've done R2R2R once and would love to do it again.I'd be driving from Orange County, CA and would be able to transport 2 or 3 others. John Wayne airport is close to me and would be an easy option for those needing to fly in. The South Rim is a 5.5 hour drive for me.
Best for me would be a 2 night/3 day trip.Day 1: Travel, spend the night at South Rim (either camp on free forest land or wherever...)Day 2: Run R2R2R, camp again on free land/other lodging, victory BEER and FOODDay 3: Limp to breakfast together, head home.This could either be Friday-Sunday (running Sat.) or Saturday-Monday (running Sun.)If people don't mind the expense, I suppose we could also pitch in and just get a room. I'm up for sleeping in the woods, the car, a hotel, whatever...Just want to keep it cheap. The National Forest land is close, free, and convenient- easy to sleep in cars, tents, whatever.What do you all think?I'm in SoCal too...Brian, you and I should hook up to drive, plus anyone else out this way.I think it's also important on a trip like this to acknowledge people might have to bail last minute. Most folks can't just up and run a 42+ mile trip unless training, health, etc. come together properly, and I think we all know many things can go wrong prior to the big day. So just putting it out there- I won't be upset if people end up not being able to make it. Not trying to sound flaky, just being realistic. That said, I'll be there.
Edited by xnomanx on 11/11/2011 18:57:18 MST.
I'm definitely interested. Training (read running) in Montana in the winter can be a little challenging, but I'll start bumping it up :)
I will be tracking this thread for sure.
Put me down for maybe...I'm definitely interested but can't commit yet...
Thom and Brendan,You guys are on the tentative running list, pun intended. This thing is 6 months out but I'm already getting pretty pumped about meeting some of you guys under these circumstances.
Every adventure needs an old slow guy, I hope that can be me!
Thom said "Every adventure needs an old slow guy, I hope that can be me!"- I resemble that remark :)
@ Thom and Mike,I hope everything comes together and both of you can make it. I guess I can get the ball rolling here on landing on a date. What is absolutely out of the question as far as dates go? Work conflicts? Family conflicts? Holidays? Is there any particular weekend that sticks out at you ("you" being anyone interested in joining) as a good option? I think the more we stick to doing this in early/mid April the better weather we'll have down lower in the ditch, avoiding some of the heat- this may mean some lingering packed snow/ice up on the upper reaches of the trail heading up the N. Rim, but I think the amount of year round foot traffic will keep that in check. Thoughts?
a friend and I will be doing the RRR weekend of April 14.it's the only date we can do, pencilled in between two 50 mile races (we are slow but tenacious).if that weekend works out for you guys, would be great to meet you.
"this may mean some lingering packed snow/ice up on the upper reaches of the trail heading up the N. Rim"But there is bright side...... Snow usually means water and MALTO slushies! It sounds like a mid April timing would see us with the water shut off at a few points. The south rim wouldn't be much of a problem but the north sounds like it would be a several hour carry. There could be some creative water caching options that would make that less of an issue.
Art,I'm waiting to hear back from Craig on a date, but I'll definitely keep in mind April 14th. You guy's are nuts sandwiching this in-between two 50's.
Emailed you back Eugene.I could do the 14th of April if we traveled on the 13th, ran the 14th, and went home the 15th. I'd be taking Friday off work- If I had to pick you (Eugene)up in Phoenix I could theoretically even leave the afternoon of Thursday the 12th...Is the 14th on the early side concerning snow on the N. Rim? As long as it's still doable, I don't care if I have to carry microspikes, a pair of poles, etc...
One other thing...David Chenault mentioned getting picked up in Las Vegas.I could do that, but it would make getting to Phoenix in the same trip difficult.Basically, I could leave Los Angeles and take the southern route to the South Rim, coming up through Phoenix. Or I could go out to Vegas and then cut straight across to the S. Rim. But doing both would be difficult. I'm more than happy picking people up, but doing both Vegas and Phoenix in a single trip would be tough.So if David C. is coming, I could do Vegas to get him and leave someone else to get Eugene in Phoenix or visa versa....Just a detail to think about.
Craig, April 14th looks good if Art doesn't mind me taking a piggy back ride up the S. Rim if I see him. Let's make it official and go with Saturday, April 14th, 2012. Looking over the climate overview for the GC, April has the ideal conditions for a run, temperature wise.April GC avg.:S. Rim: High- 60, Low- 32Inner Canyon: High- 82, Low- 56N. Rim: High-53, Low- 29May temps jump up considerably from April down at the river, how does 90F+ sound?
Sweet, sounds good. Let's plan on running on the 14th then. We'll work out travel details as people commit and we get closer.
Weather and snowfall can vary year to year.Three years ago it was 20* at the south rim when I started, but warmed up quickly on the descent. Still I wore 2 shirts the whole time and kept a jacket and windshirt handy.that time there was snow the last mile or two up to north rim but no big deal. very packed down, slushy and some mud, did not slow me down much.
Edited by asandh on 02/14/2012 08:35:20 MST.
Eugene: I'm tentatively in. I did a rim to rim this spring as part of my AZT thru-hike, and couldn't help thinking how much fun it would have been to head back south. As far as I'm concerned, this would be great training for Dave's Bob Marshall Wilderness Open. Would love to meet up with some of you as well..
I would likely come into Vegas also. I will try to commit prior to mid December.
So if the water's off, it sounds like the longest stretch we'd have to camel up on would be ~14 miles, from roughly the base of the North Rim climb, to the top, and back down. Not bad.
I think the house I got water at on the North Kaibab trail was the pump house residence. this seemed to be the place where the trail workers were staying while doing there multi day trail work.there was a water spigot and a garden hose in the front yard.roundtrip from this house to north rim is about 10.8 miles.that should be max distance between water spots.
found this calculator and entered date/mileage and this is what it came up w/, is this in the ballpark on what a guy should be looking at?http://www.scrunners.org/ultrasch.php?month=4&day=14&year=2012&dow=6&schedule=50m&submit=Draw+Schedule
That final climb out of the canyon is a butt kicker.
Edited by asandh on 02/14/2012 08:36:53 MST.
seriously considering joining this group. I'd have to put in some serious training in the next 6 months. i am not an ultra runner, just a "regular" runner. I can lay down 20+miles of hiking with a weekend pack pretty comfortably, so i need to self-evaluate my abilities. If my fitness level, or lack thereof, seems like it would be a liability to the group I'd gracefully decline. I know there's always the possibility to turn back early, but....don't really want to be that guy.I've hiked in canyon 3 times and know the real work is coming back out. One of those times was down south kaibab and up bright angel in a day, and it wasn't too bad, but the north rim would be new to me. if so, i'd be flying into phoenix most likely, or could possibly fly to vegas. phoenix is definitely cheaper from KC. kinda sounds like either one would have a group coming through, right?
Edited by benwood on 11/14/2011 09:17:21 MST.
I've actually used that calculator to train for a 50K Mike. It got me to finish just fine. I never followed it exactly, but tailored it to my experience/time. But I think as a rough outline, it's a good start. It seems to be a pretty standard buildup, typical of most programs I've used/looked at for distance (Jeff Galloway, Hal Higdon, Bob Glover, etc.). Roughly +10% volume per week, with a step back "rest" week every 3 or 4.Most plans of this length assume you already have a base of at least 20-25 MPW. I've seen 50 mile plans with a more volume than this, starting at 35 MPW and peaking at 70-75 MPW, with longer long days. But I'd wager this is sufficient if you stick with it.One thing it doesn't address is specificity. I'd certainly make sure to get in plenty of vertical on the Saturday and Sunday runs, as well as making the midweek "medium" run a "pace" day...either running it somewhat faster or getting in more hill climbing.Conventional wisdom is to do your long days slow, and your medium days at a faster pace. One short day could be substituted for speed work or hill repeats...but most coaches I know argue that if you're new to running, speedwork/repeats might be a little stressful and you're better off just getting your body used to logging regular miles for a while first.It's not really different from the way I have typically built up, though all my experience so far is mostly in the marathon to 40 mile range. I usually follow the same weekly schedule as in your link, only I vary the mileage a bit. I'll also make Monday a swimming day and mix in pushups, pullups, situps, etc. throughout the week. I've always kept 1 day for pure rest...for me it's Friday, usually the day before my longest runs.__________________________________________________________And then there's the other timeless training method:Run, a lot, on terrain similar to what you want to race.
I'd very much like to make this work. Ths logistics, especially insofar as getting cheap flights, are a bit daunting. Will talk to some folks about that soon.Mid-April is a good time. May is too hot. Doing proper training up here will be tough. As important as uphill training is, downhill is perhaps even moreso. It's very easy to grenade your quads on all the big step downs. This would be a good physical step-up to the Wilderness Open (which is in turn good prep for the Classic in AK, just got the Classic route this morning).
thanks gents- sounds like I have my work cut out for me :)Mike
I'm going to start working on a set R2R2R 2012 beer steins for the finishers. Sorry, no belt buckles, I work in clay.
Trophies !!now I will have to finish.
Craig, will you be throwing these steins with your feet? I've seen your skills.
now if that doesn't motivate you, then nothing willfantastic!
Good chance I will be able to be there then. However, I might try r2-somewhere-then back up depending on my training. One or both of my sons might meet up. They are both runners, but will not be able to do serious prep for the r2r2r. But still would be fun to run down and back - and run with BPL's mad wolf pack for a while at least.
Gotta throw my name onto the list. Ive been on the look out for the next challenge to keep my ass off the couch for the winter and this fits perfectly. The date works for me, I'll be flying in from Canada so if anyone can spare a spot in their car I can do ass/grass/gas from which ever city works best/is the cheapest flight. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. I'm psyched!
Now that this is generating some momentum, I'm getting excited.I'm fortunate that I have a good mountain in my backyard: ~4,800 gain over about 9 miles up. Total, it's a nearly 20 mile RT with almost +/- 10,000 feet of elevation. Mirrors the Grand Canyon pretty well for training purposes.If I could run it once per week and throw in some doubles on it...Maybe by April I'll have hooves and goat legs.
craig! woah man, now i might actually have to put forth some training. I'm not gonna pass up that stein opportunity!in all realism, that's really cool man.
found this on Andy's site- water and mileage charthttp://www.andrewskurka.com/assets/RACE/R2R2R/water-databook.pdfgreat idea w/ the steins! :)
I did this at the end of last April, it is a great trip. Good luck everybody and have a great trip. Let me know if I can be of assistance planning.
When the list is final I might do a custom run of Defeet Aireator socks in grey with black R2R2R on the sides, could be fun.Just something I'm thinking about, no promises.
Eugene mentioned this this adventure to me while on one of our recent runs -- it sounded like an opportunity that I could not pass up. After a few days of (re)visiting R2R2R reports and the like, I decided that this was, in fact, an opportunity I didn't want to pass up. I look forward to meeting everyone and enjoying the fruits of our running. Train well.
Edited by hewinsd on 11/17/2011 19:33:18 MST.
Recently, a crew of ultra-runners from Colorado went down to run a R2R2R. On this day, Dakota Jones broke Dave Mackey's record becoming the current R2R2R 'FKT' king. Meanwhile, the rest of the group, including the ultra-accomplished Brendan Trimboli, by all accounts had stellar runs. Here is a recent post from Brendan w/ video from their day. Enjoy! Run Video edit: Post run report w/some pics
Edited by hewinsd on 11/19/2011 15:29:57 MST.
Dan- welcome aboard, hope to meet you in the springquestion on water- I have a two liter bladder that I can use in my Talon 5.5 or 11 (undecided on which one, I'm a little bit of a boy scout so leaning towards the 11 :)), should I be investing in a 3 liter?also I'm guessing we'd get started before sunup to get a good start?lodging- besides what's available right at the South Rim, is there any towns remotely close?as much as I like camping, thinking a motel bed might be nice for this adventure :)Mike
South Rim accommodations :the village of Tusayan is 1 mile from south rim entrance and about 7 miles from the actual south rim. here is a list of hotels.Tusayan Hotelsthe south rim has a large campground only a couple miles from the rim. it has hot showers and a laundramat.south rim campgrounds...
Edited by asandh on 02/14/2012 08:38:53 MST.
Art- sounds good, an early start gives me at least some chance of making it back w/ a little daylight (probably not much though! :))looks like 13 hours of daylight for mid April11 miles I think I'd be fine w/ 2 liters, we'll see I am after all the boy scout type thanks for the link for the lodgingMike
Thanks, Mike. I am looking forward to joining the festivities. From what I have read a lot of people go down with a 64oz or 2L race vest type pack (Nathan HPL 20 or Ulitmate Direction Wasp seem popular) and do alright. I've also seen a few people double fisting handhelds and using a pack for clothes/food etc... It is probably a good idea to figure out where water is and is not available before we go down. According to Skurka's report that Eugene posted it's possible a few sources may still be shut off.
http://www.ultimatedirection.com/p-558-wasp.aspx?category=packs$82 on sale for $57http://www.rei.com/product/767745/nathan-hpl-020-race-hydration-vest-70-oz$85I'm looking at these (what Dan said he sees a lot of people use)
I think the biggest difference between these packs is weight, which translates into storage capacity. Dry the Nathan is 6oz, while the UD is 1lb 5oz. Storage wise they hold 100 cuin versus 390cuin respectively. Although I have never run with a Nathan pack, I have heard the bladder when full almost completely fills the main compartment (probably ok when your run is supported). I have a UD Wasp and can say that it has ample storage space for whatever kind of food/gels a windshell/gloves/headlamp. Both packs seem to have a good amount of up front storage for whatever you may need on the fly. Both packs are 'race vests' and probably ride similarly (high and tight). here's a less expensive option for the Nathan: $69.95/free 2-day and return ship. http://www.runningwarehouse.com/descpage-NHPL020.html[edit] I don't have one to weigh, but Nathan seems to have understated the weight of their pack (see below). I will say from seeing the two in person - I'd still guess that the Nathan is quite a bit lighter than the Ultimate Direction Wasp. Not sure that'd matter much on this trip where we'll need to carry enough to get us through the day.
Edited by hewinsd on 11/20/2011 22:26:21 MST.
discussion of water/running packs for Grand Canyon moved to this new thread so the "Trip Thread" doesn't wander too much.water/running packs
Edited by asandh on 11/21/2011 08:25:46 MST.
I thought I would give this thread a friendly BUMP before Thanksgiving, as a reminder to not bury yourself in gravy over the week.I hope everyone is getting in some quality runs and enjoying the Fall weather, well except Mike, he's probably buried in MT in snow and ice running inside the basement on a treadmill. ;-) 4 1/2 months out, more or less, keep the goal close to you.Happy Thanksgiving.
I plan on running at least 15 miles of mountain on Thanksgiving morning. That, combined with no breakfast and piling up my dinner and desert plates but NOT going back for any seconds should keep me calorie-neutral...Started my 18 week training countdown for the Los Angeles Marathon yesterday. Trying to make a concerted effort to shed some weight, drop my mile times, and run a PR. After the marathon I'll switch into some even longer running for the R2R2R.Stay tough my friends.
yup- it's running in the snow for me :) it actually isn't too bad, the snow acts as somewhat of cushion, so it's pretty comfy to run on, I'll end up w/ some machine screws pretty soon as it definitely slick at timesmy run yesterday evening was kind of cool as there wasn't a single human track anywhere- I followed a fresh coyote track for ~ 5 miles, flushed some sharptail grouse on top of the ridge and then jumped 8 mule deer in the creek bottom (where I took a little spill after miscalculating my jump :) and ended up w/ one wet foot)I'm getting my weekly running base into that 15-20 mile range so that I can jump into the program I posted earlier. I am concerned about very cold weather though, we had a couple of days w/ below 0 already, but are now enjoying temps into the 40's for highs. I may end looking into some small race style snowshoes before it's all said and done too.Mike
It was well below -10F until yesterday way up here north of the 49th. I've been on the rowing machine a lot. The cold has broke for now so I'll be out to take advantage tonight. This is going to be an interesting winter...Mike - do the machine screws work for you? Running in the dead of winter is new to me. I think I'm in for a lot of trial and error. Any help would be appreciated. What works for you as far as trying to keep your feet warm and the rubber side down?
Happy Thanksgiving to all. Will definitely get in a pre-bird run. Don't want to look like one of those Macy's baloons.Four day weekend for me. I'm going for my distance/time record on Friday or Saturday. Can't believe the tracking says both my shipments of hpl and bottles will be here tomorrow. How about that for free shipping.Mike - be careful in that snow!
Devon- I haven't tried the machine screws yet, I'll let you know how they work when I get them inI'm also looking at these as a possibility- http://www.sportiva.com/products/footwear/mountain-running/crossover- has a built in gaiter and gore-tex linedcan also use their hobnails w/ themhttp://www.sportiva.com/products/footwear/accessories/at-hobnail-kitI haven't experienced cold feet yet, though the temps I've run in have only been down into the 20's- I am wearing heavier socks though- Darn Tough 1/4 full cushiona gore shoe should help w/ the cold, really cold I'm thinking a thin neoprene sock over a thin wool sockdefinitely going to be challenging :)
If you want to send a little pow down here that would be most appreciated Mike. We're having a mild fall, "chilly" mornings and cool days, sunshine as usual. Yesterday we got a little bit of that wet stuff falling out of the sky, I had my running shoes and headlamp ready as soon as I got off work, couldn't pass up tacky desert trail and a windy run up my favorite climbing route.Mike, the only downside to using sheet metal screws for ice traction is you basically render that pair useless once spring comes around and things melt off, but with all the abuse they'll be getting over the next few months I imagine they'll be toast before then. I have 0 experience running in cold and snow, my hat is off to you for planning out how to keep at it during the dark months. Snowshoeing seems like an excellent option, you might not get the mileage you're looking for but definitely take a crazy cardio beating.
Hi fellas,I've been watching this thread since its inception, and have come to realize that I am crazy enough to try this. The big question for me is fitness and injury - I'm not sure how my hip might hold up during ultra training. My new training program will begin in earnest December 1 after a long break to heal all my sore spots from my last long bout of training. I should know by February if this would be suicide for me or if my body will, in fact, hold up.Stoked!
Eugene- agreed on the shoes, my shoes are already on the down turn (have a shiny new pair waiting patiently in a box :) ) so no biggie; the Crossovers it appears the studs are removable/reinstallable
any thoughts on South Kaibab vs Bright Angel- hear that SK is more scenic?? it's a shorter route, but steeperI guess one other possible option (would require a little shuttle) is descend one and ascend the other?????
I've done South Kaibab to North Kaibab to South Kaibab, mainly becasue I didn't want to deal with a shuttle.I've never done Bright Angel.I know most runners seem to like going down South K. and then back up Bright Angel at the South Rim. There's no water on South Kaibab and there is on Bright Angel, but not a big deal to me, it's only ~7 miles from river to rim either way.Personally, I'd prefer South Kaibab round trip just because it's what I know. Yes, it's pretty steep (but what isn't out there?), but to me it's a known known, making it easier to get my head around. Bright Angel, for me, is currently a known unknown..."We know there are known knowns: there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns: that is to say we know there are things we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know." —Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld
Edited by xnomanx on 11/30/2011 08:31:23 MST.
SK-NK-SK is 5 miles shorter (42mi) than BA-NK-BA (47mi).I think that 5 miles would be a 1.5 to 2 hour time difference for the average plodder.Bright Angel - nice views, water, bathrooms, longerSouth Kaibab - nicer views, no water, no bathrooms, mule trains, shorter
FYI, mule trains are mostly on the Bright Angel trail, not SK. Only some of the supply/maintenance trains use the SK; PR passenger trips all use BA up and down.There are solar toilets at Cedar Ridge on SK.
South Kaibab makes sense to me if it clears us of having to contend with the mule trains in the AM.@Art, what were your original plans and what have you done in the past?
still trying to decide which route to run.
Edited by asandh on 02/14/2012 08:40:54 MST.
my vote would be South Kaiba for the simple reason it's shorter :)
George Matthews passed away last Wednesday, November 30th, 2011. His life was cut short around 5:30pm EST after a quick 20 minute run before it got dark. He was a GREAT father and lived his life for everyone else. He enjoyed talking about his passion (backpacking and running) with everyone on Backpacking Light and I wanted to let you all know.He will be missed...Sincerely,Chad M. , George's Son
Edited by gmatthews on 12/08/2011 06:48:58 MST.
I'm in shock.While I never met George in person, I felt I was coming to know him online, and was looking forward to running with him at the Grand Canyon.We'll miss you George.Art
Chad- so sorry to hear about your loss. I also was very much looking forward to meeting your Dad this April. I know he was very passionate about his hiking and running- he'll certainly be missed here.Please accept my condolences.Mike Moore
Chad,Like Art, I'm in shock. I always enjoyed, through his posts here, your father's sense of humor and good will toward his fellow BPLers. He will certainly be sorely missed.
Even through the filter of our discussion boards, we all knew George was a great guy. So sorry to hear this. And thanks for posting the great picture of him.
George Matthews is a testament, one of the best examples here, to the quality people and relationships that exist here within BPL. I cannot help but envy those that new him personally or crossed paths with him out on the trail or in his community, he sure seemed like a genuinely great individual, that much I know just in the brief conversations through this message board. I could always read a George post and learn something new, or be challenged, motivated, and encouraged. My heart goes out to the Matthews family and your deep loss, may you find peace in it all. George will be missed in April and will undoubtedly be on the minds of all those that can make it.
After reading these posts it is very clear to me - although I was not fortunate enough to know him well - that George's enthusiasm for the outdoors, backpacking and trail running were contagious. As we delve into the canyon come April, I'll certainly do my best to channel that same sense of adventure that George shared with so many along his journey. My most sincere condolences to your family, Chad.
I am so sorry to hear about this. My condolences to your family Chad.
"Like Art, I'm in shock. I always enjoyed, through his posts here, your father's sense of humor and good will toward his fellow BPLers. He will certainly be sorely missed."Add me to a list that will quickly grow long. I had a sense of your Dad from his posts that he was a gentle, caring person with a sly sense of humor and keen intellect. I had hoped to meet up with him at some point, but now that will have to wait a while. My condolences, Chad. BPL will not be the same without him.
Always a gentleman. I went to his profile looking for the big feet avatar and discovered that George had 52 reader reviews and 1843 posts. All positive and helpful and good- humored I'm sure. What a positive example.George and Chad, May the peace of the Lord be always with you.
It looks like I've got a good deal on flights from Denver to Phoenix making this financially viable for me. Maybe we can all squeeze into a rental car to make the drive to the ditch cheaper? Maybe a warm up run in Sedona on the way ???!?
Just saw this and I could be really jazzed about it. I love GCNP trips, did BA-River-BA with my 11-year-old last summer, have done a few other trips to the River this century and more Rim-River-Rims (plus a R2R2R) back in the last century.April is a GREAT time to dodge "mud season" in Alaska and a wonderful motivater for training all winter.Meeting and hiking with some of you whackos would be cool, too.But I'm a hiker, not a runner - at least for the last few decades. I've run/walked the NK-River-NK when I was half my age.>"This will be done in the fashion of a run/hike and will likely be a 12-16 hour day"So is the approach to run down, run the flattish parts and hike the uphills? If so, maybe there's a play where I leave (as I often do) at 2 am with a headlamp and you runner types catch up with me somewhere on the NK.Or maybe I just suck it up and get some running in this winter. Hiking only, R2R2R was 19 hours years ago (that last 5,000' up was brutal) and I'm in much better shape now so maybe jogging some of it isn't that far off my normal game - hiking only, I'd now expect 16 hours. Definitely time for screws in the shoes if I'm running the snowy forest trails this winter.And do you imagine this as a group of 6-8 running/hiking together? Or groups of 2-3 pairing off by their preferred speeds?Thanks! -David Thomas Kenai, Alaska
can't speak for the others, but some of these guys compete in ultra events- I'm not one of those guys :)I'm trying my best to get into decent shape where I can run a fair share of the trail (but realizing a fair share will probably be walked)my guess is there will mixture of groupings based on condition, time spent gawking, photo taking, etc :)you can get a little insight in our training thread, you'll see some folks who are already very conditioned (already running 40+ miles a week) and some like me not so muchI'd say go for it, get some conditioning going now and assess where your at come April, worse case scenario you'll be in decent shape even if you don't end up going- that's the attitude I'm taking
I doubt very much we will all try to do the R2R2R as a single group.too much variation in condtioning, experience, and desire.actually I'm not even sure everyone is planning on a full R2R2R.also not even sure all the R2R2R ers will be doing the same version.BA-NK-BASK-NK-SKSK-NK-BAseveral optionsyes it will pretty much be run the downhills, walk the uphills, do whatever feels best on the flats. I don't think there are very many really fast people on the list.I'm sure not fast.David which version did you do 19 hours ?you sound like you'll do fine.
Mike: Thanks for your thoughts. Worst case is actually: I'm out on a training run some night in Kenai and get stomped by a moose.Best case: With increasing sunspot activity, we finally get some auroras again because being outside after dark is the best way notice/see them. And I get enough miles in to make a PR. And feel decent afterwards.And don't discount the devoted hiker - that Faster Known Time link reported the runners getting passed by a hiker on the uphill. I try to be that kind of hiker.I guess you've got some sub-zero and white stuff constraints on your training, too, huh?> "I'd say go for it, get some conditioning going now and assess where your at come April, worse case scenario you'll be in decent shape even if you don't end up going- that's the attitude I'm taking"I'd say go for it, get as much conditioning as you can and GO regardless. Maybe you (and I?) just have a nice easy dayhike to the River and back and hand the crazy runners some turkey wraps or sushi or goo or ice cream sandwiches on their way up. And maybe you get to the River feeling so good, you keep going and get halfway up the other side. I've had days where things just felt right and I kept going.
Art: Thanks. It sounds like maybe it's a lot of different trips on the same date. With prepatory and celebratory meals together before and after?My 19-hour R2R2R was SK-NK-SK. Mid April, 1985. The thing was, I'd done diddly hiking that whole winter and it was totally on a lark, as I was driving I-40 east and started thinking, "Hmmm, BA-BA was a great dayhike. I'll do SK-SK this time. Or maybe more. Oh, here I am at the SR at 2 am. Why sleep for 3 hours when I could start hiking now? Maybe I could do the whole thing?" So it was with no conditioning, no planning, and I totally bonked leaving the River for the SR. But I was 23 years old and the weather was perfect. On that day, more than any other, I learned that I can wear down my body if I'm not properly conditioned and the years have only reinforced that. Carrying a 40-pound pack on a family BP trip and powering up a Half Dome or GCNP trail for 5,000 feet without stopping is easier now than it's ever been. Hiking is a sport that ages well. I've had my butt kicked by 80-year-olds on Mount Whitney and while skiing in Utah.
I hope everyone has had an enjoyable week or so of holiday festivities. In all honesty, who here has put on a few pounds or lost a little pep in their step? I've eaten more baked goods and consumed more porters and ales in the last 2 weeks than I have in all of 2011. I know my ounces of craft brew consumed rivals my miles run the last two weeks.....but it's been oh so sweet! I set out for a solid climbing run up in the mountains on Monday and met up with my father and brother in law for a nice day hike on some fresh snow and ice up high, it was quite enjoyable. The last two days have been spent recovering from a nasty upper respiratory infection and nursing a sick wife and two kiddos with infections and pink eye.On that note I just wanted to encourage everyone to keep at it with their training, whatever that is to you, and to keep the goal in mind which is quickly approaching. I know the next three months for me will be heavier on the mileage and focusing on building up the climbing into my week. A few things:@ Eric Payne, I think several of us will be converging in Phoenix at similar times, so we should figure out the nitty gritty details soon, especially for those who intend to purchase airfare now while pricing is cheap. Carpooling makes the most sense if at all possible, I know I intend to bum a ride.To anyone else interested in joining us in April:This is an entirely open invitation to anyone who understands the difficulty of doing a run of this nature. While we will be meeting as a group on April 14th, we all fully understand that this will be a personal endeavor once we head down below the Rim and how the day plays out will vary from person to person depending on their fitness, goals, and individuality. Mike and Art hit it on the head in their comments above. I'm sure some will naturally pair up or group up, others may want to suffer the joy of running the distance in their own headspace. I think it is assumed that we will be looking out for our fellow brothers and sisters throughout the day.Happy New Year my friends!
Right on Eugene, I'm getting excited as well.I've actually managed to get through the holidays unscathed, at least no heavier than before. I had just lost about 9 pounds on the way into late December.Last week was a crappy running week, only two runs due to a bad cold. I thought I was over it, went on an 11.5 mile trail run with Adan Lopez (also on BPL) yesterday, followed by 6 hours of doing construction work. Now I feel like I've been hit by a truck, can't do a thing, full-on flu symptoms.But anyhow, I should be back on track by New Year's, when I planned on getting more serious anyways.So happy new year everyone, stay healthy, I think it's going to be a good one for outdoor adventure.
I have gone through the holidays unscathed but.... that's only because I gained 20 lbs. in the previous three months (since I got back from the PCT.) Finally I have lost a couple and will lose the last 6lbs. to get back to my ideal weight. (It's a lot easier to put on than take off.)I would love to get the date finalized in order to make flight plans. My wife may also be joining me (not us, we couldn't pay her enough to even walk to the river.) so we also may have some logistical support at the run's end depending on our route. We may be able to shuttle some folks up to GC depending on schedules.Also, the only preference I have is to have water on the way back up the south rim. It will be hard enough without the extra water weight but even that is not a big deal. Bottom line, the particular route is less important to me. Also, this is more of a "fun" run for me vs. trying to hit some particular time so the social element is more important. (What a switch from my PCT hike!)Can't wait, my training is in full swing so that I don't embarass myself too much!!
@ Craig and Greg,It's good to hear ya'll are doing well and in good spirits. Greg, the date is set, we'll all be heading down Saturday, April 14th. I imagine that everyone will be arriving to the South Rim on Friday the 13th..... (dun dun dunnnnnnn). Eric Payne mentioned freebie camping in Forest land the night before; finding a plot of land large enough to house a group of runners/hikers shouldn't be an issue. Obviously if people want to shack up at the Lodge at the S. Rim, crash in their car, etc. the night before that's totally an option. I'd like to hang out with all of you and possibly enjoy a beer or two and some brats or something post run and recollect on everyone's day, so if we could secure a spot to keep things communal that would be my selfish preference.
is a group site inside the Park at the south rim campground (Mather Campground) an option or not?still camping but a bit closer to the start and finish trailheads.plus hot showers.
Edited by asandh on 12/29/2011 09:02:08 MST.
Glad to hear all these positive updates! I too have come through the holiday season pretty well (thus far). Here's a short summary of recent weeks: I fled the frozen and snowy basin and range of Southern New Mexico just in the nick of time for my native SE Pennsylvania, where we've enjoyed unseasonably high temperatures with intermittent rain (ironic huh?).I've enjoyed Christmas with my family rolling out artisan pizza and pasta from scratch with homemade tomato sauce and wine. Hope everyone has a great and safe remainder of the holiday season and carries on with their running. I am going to keep indulging in great Italian food and pizza, which are nearly impossible to come by in S. NM just to burn them off the next morning on the trails.
Edited by hewinsd on 01/02/2012 20:29:04 MST.
I'm bumping this thread for anyone else who missed this or is still on the fence.There's a few months left folks.
concerning water: if I understand it correctly it's ~ 7 miles to Phantom Ranch and that's the first reliable water source (heading down)I thought the next water reliable water source was Cottonwood (~ another 7 miles), but this site as of 11/10/11 shows it OFF, thought this was a year round one????http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/trail-closures.htm#CP_JUMP_140503they also show Roaring Springs OFF, which I often see listed as year round????if this holds we only have one reliable water source at the 7 mile and 35 mile point? that's going to be a little rough to say the least, are Cottonwood and Roaring typically turned on before May? or am I missing some source(s)thanks
Edited by mtwarden on 02/12/2012 09:01:55 MST.
If the spigot at cottonwood is off, can't we just drink from the river and bring a few tablets?When I did this trip in October a few years ago, I remember everyone talking about water sources as if it's an issue- then I discovered that you're essentially running along the stream for ~1/3 of each crossing.
So we just need to verify the Cottonwood situation before the hike.
Edited by asandh on 02/14/2012 08:43:07 MST.
I've been south of the River a lot, but not on North Kaibab for a long time. Is there surface water between Cottonwood and the North Rim? i.e. if Cottonwood were off, could we use iodine/filter? I know - it's cold, it needs a long contact time, but I'll probably have the iodine with me, regardless.
Daveto the best of my 3 year old recollection, the answer is no, unless you mean rain puddles.but as long as trail workers are using the house, there will be water there.
hopefully Cottonwood will come online before April (Roaring Springs maybe too)is anyone interested in getting a room for Fri and Sat night? they are pricey (~ $140/night for two queens), but kind of nice :)- would forego bringing camping equipment as well- we could probably get a fair number of folks into a room I thinkI checked on shuttles from the lodging area and starting in March the shuttle will run every 1/2 hour starting at 4:30 AM to get one to the South Kaibab THI guess I should ask have we settled on the South Kaibab?
Mike,I'll be coming from far away (farthest, perhaps?) and possibly red-eyeing there, so, yeah, I'm planning to hotel it. And going halfsies on a room is good with me. If it's 8 guys in a room, I'll pass - I value my sleep too much and want every edge I get for a trip like this.The last couple of times I stayed in at the Red Feather Lodge just outside the park because they had vacancies a few months in advance. Nothing special, generic hotel, generic dining room. Or were you thinking of something in the Park? Not even getting in the car that day is always nice.To follow up on your Q: Are people thinking South Kaibab both ways or shuttle to the SK and return up the Bright Angel? I'd lean towards 1) BA-NK-BA or 2) SK-NK-BA myself. My last R2R2R was SK-NK-SK and the SK going up was dry, steep, and lonely.For BA-NK-BA on such a long day, I'm not morally opposed to stashing food in a very animal-proof container on the way down the BA. Extra pounds carried over dozens of miles adds up, at least for me.
I'm up for either as far as lodging goes, Red Feather sounds fine- I looked the Best Western on line and that's where I got the $140-ish rate- they also had vacancies (as of now anyways)- not sure if it's right in the park or just close????I do like the idea of SK->NK->BA, little different country and not a heck of a lot longer- I'd certainly cast my "vote" for that optionI would like to include one leg of SK if possible as I've heard it's very scenic
Those hotels are 1 mile outside the park entrance in a small village called Tusayan. and about 7 miles from the Bright Angel trailhead.not sure how far from SK trailhead.
Edited by asandh on 02/14/2012 08:44:53 MST.
Mike:I just made a reservation for the Red Feather Lodge $252 for two nights plus taxes = $282 total. Two queen beds. Nights of April 13 and April 14. I'm fine if I'm the only one there. You're also welcome to stay with me and split the tab. It seems like we might be doing similar paces - I surely am not running the whole dang thing!-David
David- that sounds good to me (God willing of course :) ) yeah- definitely not running the entire thing either, I'm just hoping to make it the entire way!are you flying into Phoenix?Mike
>"are you flying into Phoenix?"Yep. Into Phoenix 9:20 am Fri, Apr 13 Departing Phoenix 8:00 am Mon, Apr 16 I'll rent a car. Anyone who is arriving about then is welcome to catch a ride north with me on Friday.I'm thinking with my early Monday departure of staying in Phoenix Sunday night. Maybe a motel or couch-surfing with a friend.
that might just work for me, looks like I'm going to have to fly on Thursday (the Friday flight arrives too late)
I'm still not sure what I want to do for lodging. I want to talk to Eugene, also waiting to see if a friend from my area is coming or not.I'm tempted to dirtbag it in the forest near SK and sleep in the car both nights...But I'm all for getting drunk and smashing up Davids hotel room. Par-Tay!!!As for route, my vote is SK-NK-SK, simply because I know the trails and will know what to expect for the final climb out of the canyon. But it's hardly a deal-breaker for me if people want to do something else.
My wallet is telling me Mathers Campground, but my body is screaming hotel, especially for Saturday evening. I'm still up in the air as for where I'll be crashing, most likely it will be somewhere within the park to utilize the free shuttle service and minimize the logistics of getting to and from the S.Kaibab trailhead pre/post run. At this point Mathers Campground appears to be the simplest and most affordable option for me. I need to check with my hombre Dan who is coming up for the run, as well as my father in law who has given me a two thumbs up in joining us, he's clicking along real well in his training so I'm pumped he will be joining our wild contingent. I really want to spend Saturday night staring into a fire with a cheap beer in hand, recollecting on the day.
>"I really want to spend Saturday night staring into a fire with a cheap beer in hand, recollecting on the day."I do, too. Can I bring a few sixers of good beer?
Please do David, while you're at it, feel free to bring down some smoked salmon! ;-)I will look into bringing up some Hatch valley green chile if I can get anyone to let some of their annual stock go. I'm almost out for the year.
Hah! I've still got some NM green chiles from being on the Res in Jan '11 (San Ildefonso).Will do on the beer. And on the smoked salmon. Hard-smoked sockeye is a no-brainer. Brown-sugar brine and hickory smoked - everyone likes it. How are you guys on lox? Eugene, you don't look terribly Jewish to me, but the best singer I ever heard in Temple was an XGF who had a similar complexion. And then there's SDJ.
I'm down for staying in the campground with you Eugene. I was originally thinking about staying in the car, but that's more stealth, and likely not a scenario for lounging around a fire. Should we reserve some sites? Have you looked into openings, as well as how many people/cars per site?Salmon and beer sounds good David. I'll bring a cooler of something, we'll all do it up......providing I'm not still limping around in the bottom of a canyon somewhere in the dark Saturday night....
Edited by xnomanx on 01/20/2012 19:34:50 MST.
Mostly a lurker here and definitely not an ultra runner. None the less I've been following this thread with interest. I've not hiked to the river and really want to do that. I have the time so I'd like to join the group. I'd hike to river and return only and would help in a support role for the others.I'll arrive at GC on Thursday April 12 in the afternoon pulling a 14' travel trailer. Site 162 in Mather is reserved. Using my Golden Age pass, entry and 3 nights is $27. They allow one tent and 6 total people per site in addition to my truck & trailer. My truck is 6.5' bed w/ camper shell that could sleep 2. I could bring a Hubba Hubba and some pads for 2 more, ice chests, and anything else that could help the cause. Showers are coin-op.You guys have inspired me to do this so I'll be there. Let me know if someone wants to join up at Mather.Rob
Nice Rob. Good to meet you, so to speak. You're more than welcome and thanks for the support offer. We'll keep in touch on this thread.I was just asking Eugene if he thought we should get two sites or not. So far, he has 3 people, I have myself and possibly one or two others. Haven't heard back from a few more that have spoken up on this thread but have been silent for a while...So it seems we're totaling up to six that I know of right now for a campsite (not counting Mike and David using a hotel or Greg and Art who haven't spoken up on this yet), the max for a single campsite. We could possibly just use yours for overflow sleeping and all rally at one or the other site for campfires...???I guess we should wait for Art and Greg to sound off about what they want to do.But so far, I can confirm I'm in with Eugene and others for staying in a campsite.
Im in for a campout, stealth or campground. May have to bring a nice airmat. Not sure how the old bones will handle the hard ground.
>"I've not hiked to the river and really want to do that."A hike to the River is back is one of the best hikes in the World, IMO. It's great that you'll be able to do that.
@ David, We have your garden variety vacuum sealed salmon available at the more 'boutique' grocers in town, but I couldn't tell you much in regard to quality, wouldn't know the difference. I had plenty of quality salmon when I was younger living in the Olympic Penninsula, but what does a punk kid know?@Craig,I'm checking into campsites at Mathers, each site looks like they allow up to 6 individuals, 3 tents, and 2 vehicles so we should only need to reserve one or two sites. I will check into reserving a site near Rob Lee's site #162. @Rob,You're the man! Looking forward to meeting you out there and I appreciate you're generosity and willingness to hang around with a band of strangers. I haven't been down to the Colorado River so I'm with you in being a GC newbie that's looking to spread some wings.
For some flying in, I have about 4-5 various mats, cooking & eating stuff, and a couple of old military bags, and some blankets I could bring. Those wanting help should post their needs and I can commit with what I have.I'll check on this, but I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to bring my party guests into the park with my Pass. If that is proper I'd be glad to pick up some of you in the nearest town if you can secure safe parking.Otherwise you'd have to pay $25 and park where they say.It wouldn't be proper to ferry several loads of people into the park, but the rule says me and all my passengers get in free.
Rob: That's a nice offer. My read on my "Annual Pass" is that's good thru May 2012 and everyone in my car gets in on my pass.Sounds like I'm in one queen bed and Mike is in another at the Red Feather Lodge. Which leaves 2 or 3 seats in my rental car to get people into the Park if I know where you're sleeping.
if I do camp I'd prefer an official spot with hot showers like Mather.
Edited by asandh on 02/14/2012 08:46:23 MST.
Art,Go to:http://www.recreation.gov/camping/Mather_Campground/r/campgroundDetails.do?contractCode=NRSO&parkId=70971&topTabIndex=SearchRob Lee is staying at site #162 in the Mather Campground, which I confirmed is already reserved so I know we're in the right place. Sites nearby #160, #161, #164 are all available and adjacent to him. If you click "TENT ONLY NON-ELECTRIC" you can see all the site numbers. I'm going to reserve one of those sites later today. Heading out for a long run w/ some folks here in a few, have a good one everyone!
Edited by Eugeneius on 01/21/2012 08:36:03 MST.
I'll be traveling up with Eugene and the other New Mexicans that are coming. I look forward to camping and relaxing with you all before/after the fun.
Fellas! I love the way this is shaping up. I got a gentle prod from Eugene via PM this morning and now having read all the activity here I feel like I'm close to vibrating with anticipation. I've certainly been absent from these threads, but my commitment has not. I want in on this BAD. I may have some scheduling complications with work but I think with a public declaration of intent here the peer pressure will help make things happen. I couldnt keep all the math straight with the spaces available in cars/campsites but I'd like to call dibs on a ride from PHX and a spot to sleep at Mathers CG if one is still available. I'll be flying into Phoenix the morning of the 13th as early as possible, I'll be the skinny redheaded kid in the airport with a winter coat still on and his thumb out bumming a ride.
Devon,It's good to hear from you! I did receive your PM, thanks for the reply. We have two campsites currently side by side, so there is plenty of room for everyone going so far with the sites we have. Keep in touch when you do firm up your plans, either way, so we can get someone to pick you up in Phoenix if you do fly in. Stay warm up there in those frigid temps, and if it helps, think about how warm it's going to be in April at the GC.
I haven't booked my trip yet but I will likely be flying in Friday morning. I will be renting a car and will have have room. As this gets closer we can firm up the arrangements.Also I went ahead and booked site 160 so that we can accomodate anyone that may straggle in.
Edited by gg-man on 01/23/2012 09:59:18 MST.
i'm out. f'n ankle!
camp site booked ... Friday and Saturday nights only.3 people, 2 cars, so far.. . .
Edited by asandh on 02/14/2012 08:47:53 MST.
Ben- sorry to hear that :( hope you get better soonlooks like things are starting to firm up nicely :)Mike
"i'm out. f'n ankle!"Ben, maybe you and I can make it this fall. (I'll need some art work done as to not look out of place.)
Sorry Ben and Thom, I was looking forward to meeting you guys.There's also always the Rae Lakes loop in the Sierra...I was going to try and wrangle some people into running that next fall.
That is also on my trail running list. The next BPL Trail run?
Yeah, let's do it Greg. I've wanted to coax Eugene and others out for it. Chris Mills (also on BPL, though not much lately) and I were talking about doing it last year but both of us were having running issues when the time came around. It's still a big one on my list- it's absolutely beautiful country out there, I'm not sure trail running can get much better...though 45 miles at 9000-12000 feet is no small task. Maybe something to think about for September/October 2012?
Rae Lakes sounds great.
Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 17:25:20 MST.
Craig, it wouldn't take much to coax me into doing something like running the Rae Lakes Loop. Let's throw some ideas in the hat when we meet up in April. *btw, that green Tachyon windshirt looks pretty punk rock from where I'm sitting.
"*btw, that green Tachyon windshirt looks pretty punk rock from where I'm sitting."It's sold, shipped out today, no mas. In my hands is a beautiful black Houdini to replace it. I like the Houdini better; the Montbell is a great shirt, but I think the Houdini breathes better- just got back from running in it. I also like the full zip a bit better for venting. And it's better for lurking in the dark._____________________________________________________________________________I'm getting excited about this trip gentlemen. I initially thought this would be primarily a quick, down and dirty run, but I think the camping is going to be a blast too. I wasn't clear- did everyone reserve the campsites for Thursday night as well or just Friday/Sat?I'll be getting in Thursday, can sleep in the forest for free if I have to.
Edited by xnomanx on 01/24/2012 20:20:02 MST.
I reserved site #161 for Fri/Sat only, thought we would camp somewhere outside the park if we get in on Thursday. I heard from Eric Payne yesterday and he still is hoping to join us and should know soon.
I'll(hopefully)be there with one other(Joshua M) from Southern California. We'll arrive Friday evening and stay through Sunday afternoon/evening.I say hopefully because I'm a little leery to full-on commit this far out. I'm heading to Alaska for the ITI in February and am going to hold off on committing to anything challenging until I get back:-)On the Rae Lake Loop topic: Yes! Joshua and I ran it in September and it was absolutely perfect/awesome. Took about 11 hours with two shoes-off snack breaks and alot of socializing with other folks. It's the perfect loop. I hope to run it at least once per year until I'm rendered incapable!
Brian, Hopefully things work out and we all get a chance to meet and run. Keep in touch here later on and we'll make the arrangements if you and Josh want to crash with the group at the campsites. Are you competing in the Invitational? If so, best of luck to ya man, that's nuts!
I wouldn't say competing......more like "participating"!Should be fun, I'm really looking forward to the trip.Looking forward to meeting ya'll as well. BB
Craig asked,"I wasn't clear- did everyone reserve the campsites for Thursday night as well or just Friday/Sat? I'll be getting in Thursday, can sleep in the forest for free if I have to."I have site 162 on Thur. Plenty of room to share.
I just found this thread yesterday and I have to admit the first thing I thought was that it was crazy. As I read through it though my opinion changed quite a bit and all I can say is that by the end I am really excited. I know that I am late in the game, and unfortunately I can't commit 100%, but you can count me in the "probably" group. I also might have room in the car from the Denver/Colorado Springs area depending on if my wife/kids want to see the Grand Canyon or not.Brent
I need a headlamp, which one do you guys use?
Edited by Lopez on 01/31/2012 07:12:25 MST.
I'm sure everyone will swear by their favorite light.I currently use both the Petzel Tikka Plus, and the Black Diamond Spot.think they are both unregulated, which is what I want.
I'm using a Zebralight H31, runs on a single CR123- chose it over the H51 as I use a Steripen (that also uses CR123's)- there is good (long, but detailed) thread floating around here on the Zebralight
alright eugene, craig, and the punk rock windshirt crew. as you can imagine i'm feeling pretty bummed about not getting out to the GC in april. So in my lame-ness i've been looking at this rae lakes loop. Looks pretty awesome from my computer desk! I know you guys are all in mode for april, but Craig, do some coaxing....you could probably get me and Eugene to go.
September/this coming fall would be a great time for it Ben. You guys could either fly out to LA and go with me or fly into Fresno and get picked up...One way or another, let's do it.Headlamps:Adan, I'd go with a Petzl Tikka +2 or Zipka +2. It's a great little light, lots of burn time and I've always liked the red LED mode for in camp/in the tent- it won't blind your friends. I have my big old MYO RXP but that's overkill for the R2R2R, more for all-nighters. Unless the R2R2R turns into an all-nighter....but that's not the plan, right?
I would totally suggest the Petzl Tikka XP2, had the housing and diffuser not failed on me recently. I damaged the housing somehow, so may just be my fault and not the lamp in general which until recently has been solid. The design on the diffuser slides up and down to allow for spot or flood mode, but it kept sliding down on mine half way a little over a week a go-only took me a few bewildered night runs to figure out why my lighting wasnt up to snuff. It is still a good versatile lamp with the exception of that diffuser IMO. I think the Black Diamond storm offers more bang for less however.Black Diamond Storm over Tikka XP2.... Why?Regulated for the first 30% of battery life 100 lumen max vs 60 (xp2)Flood/spot (ridicously bright!)/strobeFully dimmable so you can dial in exactly the amount of light you need from torch to super dim, whereas my XP2 has 3 settingsMore weather resistant rating, submersible....not sure why this would even be necessary?Cheaper! I picked up mine @ runningwarehouse.com and used code: MILD for a 15% off discount which brings it around $43 shipped.Either are good, just throwing the Storm in the hat as I'm thoroughly pleased with mine so far and can see running at night/morning easier now than with my XP2.________________________________________________________________@ Craig,That Rae loop has me thinking, I think i'll be in solid shape for a good run of that nature; looks challenge as hell and fun. What's the total elevation gain over the full loop? How many miles in total? If you set a date count me in. I have a 50K planned for Sept and a 50 miler in October, so this would align well with training around then.
Edited by Eugeneius on 01/31/2012 09:30:30 MST.
Headlamp: I use the Black Diamond Sprinter - It's light weight, has a rechargeable battery, and is fairly bright. I never really have any problem with getting ahead of it, which happens with some lights. It also has a red LED on the back that blinks (w/ on/off) if you're out on the road and want to stand out a little more than the reflective elements of your clothes. Lube: Also, I was fumbling through my running drawer and came across my body glide stick... Since I don't read much about hiking/backpacking practices, so I am not sure if this is typically used, but when running long distances you really want to slather this stuff on any place that may rub (thighs, groin, nips, underarms, toes and heels etc etc...) Chafing can end your day just as quickly as a bad stomach. I get the stick form (comes in gel too) w/ SPF protection for no particular reason other than I get both forms of protection in one application. You can also use Vaseline/duct tape etc to reduce chafing.
Edited by hewinsd on 01/31/2012 19:09:33 MST.
Thanks Dan, the lube is going on my list pronto! I'm checking the headlamps out today, thanks guys!
You might be a trailrunner if you've ever used the words 'lube' and 'headlamp' in the same sentence.
>"You might be a trailrunner if you've ever used the words 'lube' and 'headlamp' in the same sentence."As a member of the National Speleological Society, I have to point out that there are numerous jokes to be made about spelunking as well, but maybe I better not go there.
January is dead and gone-10 weeks left folks! I don't know about you guys, but I'm ready for the considerable warmth of spring and the long days.
I heard that, Eugene. Although if its still light out when I get off of work it will be tougher to change into my running skivies if there's still people walking around the park! Maybe I'll try Craig's trick for peeing on the trail and just yell "Wang Out!!". :)Craig made a good point the other day. If we dont get some warm weather soon it will be tough to get conditioned for the weather we'll encounter across the bottom of the ditch. Some of you folks have it even tougher, like Mike, running in frigid conditions all the time!
... all of a sudden things don't seem far away.
Edited by asandh on 02/14/2012 08:49:19 MST.
I'm with you Adan. I change at the trailhead before work and on my short lunch runs, key is spreading everything out and making that transition from working man to running man smooth as a magician. If you're good no one will ever know what they witnessed. "Did he just.....!?"What race are you running Art?
Old Goats 50.
Edited by asandh on 02/01/2012 12:40:51 MST.
Would you consider yourself an 'Old Goat' Art? Best of luck to ya over the next 6 weeks or so. Looking forward to hearing how you run in the Ol Goat 50.We're putting on a free multi distance (5mile, 1/2 mar, full mar) event in two weeks, check out our website:Http://www.sierravistatrailrun.wordpress.comWe're currently at full capacity on ultrasignup.com....didn't think that was going to happen. I wont be running the race but attempting to play the role of rookie race director, luckily we have lots of ambitious volunteers willing to hang out in the desert all day.
looks like a great event Eugene. how do you manage to do it Free? there must be some expenses. Best of luck as RD, looks like a lot of work.and, well, I guess I'm an old goat, but the race isn't limited to my kind.
Hey Eugene, that Storm looks pretty good. I ran last night with my cheapie 40 lumen POS and I think it would be nice to have a lot more light. Only thing is the Storm is kinda heavy, does it bounce at all when you run? Of course, you probably float up the gnarliest trail perfectly smooth like a an escalator. I tend to bounce, crash and limp my way along so I need a pretty stable headtorch. The new XP2 says 80 lumens and almost an oz lighter, but if the Storm is not too bouncy then I'll check that one out since the price is close.
Edited by Lopez on 02/02/2012 12:02:24 MST.
Regarding headlamps specifically for the R2R2R, I'd say go light as possible and don't worry too much.April 14Twilight - 5:29 amSunrise - 5:55 amSunset - 6:59 pmEvening twilight - 7:25 pmso probably 13.5 to 14 hours of usuable light without a headlamp.headlamps for maybe 30 minutes to 1 hour in the morning,and none to 3 hours at night depending on speed.moon will be in final phase so won't be of any use, the sliver rising after 1 am.when I do all night runs, I carry both a Petzl Tika Plus and a handheld flashlight for backup (plus extra batteries). I won't be doing that for the R2R2R.
Edited by asandh on 02/02/2012 12:54:46 MST.
That's good to know Art. Where do you find all that info about moon phases, good stuff! I need something because much of my daily running 6-9pm on trails and firebreaks. I'll keep my small light then for the GC.
this web siteSun and Moon
@ Art,I'm directing this with a running friend who works with the BLM, so he had some clout in pushing it through approval. We were able to keep this event free, by necessity (had to be a "noncompetitive" event and under 100 entrants) and also due to donations of time and resources. I have come out of pocket little to none, as have others. It will be a glorified fat ass style run, probably a good mix of first time trail runners and some very experienced- it will be a good time.@Adan,I wish I floated uphill! Im 6', 168, so not a small guy, running uphill isn't as efficient as it could be, but Ive grown stronger over the last few years. My good friend is a tiny dude, he weighs a scant 130lbs and is about 5'5", he can literally bounce uphill for miles with minimal effort....its both amazing to watch and frustrating to follow behind! On the Storm, it is a little forward heavy in comparison to the XP2, due to the 4 AAA batts, but not anything really noticeable. If you cover shipping I will send out the Tikka XP2 to ya, a tiny tiny spot of JB weld or epoxy on the housing will keep the diffuser from sliding down mid run. Everything else on the lamp is in total working order and will serve you well. I used up some gift cash, otherwise I would just keep it. I'm a backsliding "No New Gear for 2012" follower.
Lots of great info here and in the other thread. I particularly learned a lot from the "fueling" discussion. Thanks for all the personal insight. Unfortunately, I'm withdrawing from this attempt. Just too many setbacks in training with my bum foot and work travel.Good luck everyone.Brad
Planned a 10 mile run tonight, called it quits and turned around only 5 minutes into it.Came home and cracked a White Hawk IPA. Sometimes it's all you can do :)
Maybe another time under different circumstances Brad. I threw down a fatty green chile cheeseburger this evening Craig. Miles logged today? 0Enjoy that IPA.
I'm with you, Craig. I had a particularly stressful day today and my daughter commented that I looked sad and that I should go running. She says I always look happy after I go running. She's a wise little chucklehead.Hey Eugene, I'd be hitting the chile burger everyday if I lived in your area. A friend of mine brings me chiles back from NM, seriously good Rajas! Tonight a cold bottle of stout. Tomorrow, a good mountain ramble.
VFW has a all you can eat fish fry every first Friday of the month, I don't think they made much $ on me :) miles ran on Friday 0 (although I did hit the gym earlier in the day)longer run (for me) planned for today though
I was very happy with my very long 4 mile road run Friday! Made it through with no foot pain. Will be trying 10 in a few minutes. Hopefully that will be pain free as well and I can start getting back onto the trail next week.
don't want to jinx myself, but figure it might be worth having a plan B(s) just in case my fitness level isn't up to the 42 mile limitI was thinking two possible options- SK->Cottonwood Campground-> SK, figured that might be a natural turn around spot as there is water (well we hope there will be water!) and the terrain is relatively gentle up to that point, would make for roughly a 30 mile tripfor an easier yet option, SK-> river -> Bright Angel, that would be ~ 16 miles
Mike: I'm behind where I'd like to be because so much of January was -25F. I'm doing enough stair work that Rim-River-Rim and then some is all going to be fun, but I don't have the horizontal miles yet to be a happy camper after a full R2R2R. I'm not ruling that out, and ought to just go bundle up and walk the frozen beach everday (or Walmart), but I could imagine being more sane than macho come April 14th. No way am I running the whole thing - these trailrunning dudes are just a different species than I am. So it might be more "How far can I go in moderately-paced 12-14 hours?" than "How fast can I do 42 horizontal and 4 vertical miles?"Is one way to look at it: You'll hike a comfortable pace for X hours, then turn around and take 1.5X to get back? X = 3 or 3.5 means River and back, 8-9 hours total - way doable. X = 4 or 5 means more of the NK.-David
David- you guys have been getting hammered w/ the cold- I feel for you, it's gets very old in a hurry :("How far can I go moderately-paced in 12-14 hours?" I think that's the way I'm thinking about it as well I'd love to be able to eat the whole enchilada, but I'll plenty happy w/ just a large piece of it :)Mike
David and Mikethe little secret about us ultra "runners" is that we do quite a bit of power walking in something like an RRR. I've even seen the elite runners walk some uphills.So you're not too far behind if you can keep walking.RRR is doable, just depends on your definition of Fun, and how much you want to sight see.
Edited by asandh on 02/10/2012 09:26:39 MST.
Art- looking at the elevation profiles and taking into account the 42 miles- walking is most definitely in the cards for me :)
don't know what elevation you guys live at, but 7-8,000 ft will definitely be a factor for those not used to it.I live at sea level and I know it will hit me.
Art- that part of the elevation equation won't be a problem for me, it's the part where you're substantially adding or subtracting elevation- that's going to kick my rump :)Mike
Art,Thanks for the feedback. It's nice to know that one of the "runners" is a run-walker and not planning on doing a 10-hour round trip.Regarding,"don't know what elevation you guys live at"From my house, I can p1ss in salt water. And we don't live on the Great Salt Lake.The 6 hours of flights to Phoenix will be at a cabin pressure equilavent to 7,500 feet. I'll take any acclimitization I can get!
I was planning this exact same trip for late May and my Permits just got denied. Any suggestions how I could do this better?
Benjamin: You don't need a permit for this (or any other dayhike) in GCNP. Yet. Yosemite has already gone over to the dark side regarding permits for Half Dome dayhikes even though there have been more deaths in GCNP then Yosemite.But for a Rim to Rim to Rim, just show up and go. A lot of training between now and then is highly recommended. Late May will be a lot hotter in the inner Canyon yhan mid April. My 11-year-old and I totally lucked out late this last May (South Rim - River - South Rim) because it only got to 87F.
David, I'm pretty sure most of us "runners" will be doing a fair amount of walking, though I have a feeling Greg probably walks faster than I'll be running.
Hello! My name's Torrey and I know one of your friends, Adan, from the SGMDF-forum. I live at the south rim of the canyon (actually inside the park in GC Villiage...i work there) anywho..Ide very much like to join you guys on your run! Ive run down both Kaibab as well as Bright Angel trail to the river n back , and sometimes farther (Ribbon Falls, and Cottonwood camp, 32 miles round trip) numerous times, since june to now, i think its been 11 times? anyways, I run a lot and know the terrain and am fit enough, so im hoping to join you guys. I always run alone out here cause no one else ive met runs 25+ miles on trails, so itll be kinda cool to go with other people for once! from south rim to river/bridge on Kaibab trail--70 minutes...back up--2hr 20minsouth rim to river/bridge on Bright angel--1hr 41 min...up--3hr 25min.Kaibab to cottonwood camp--3hr 30min25 canyon miles/random trails,tonto etc --5hr 00min i didnt put up maps cause im guessin you guys have seen em and mileage/ele. anyway, thats my times for that stuff, i havent been to the top of the North rim yet, so itll be neat if i can go with you all, It looks from the list im the only girl, so hopefully Im not too slow, though if i am, i dont expect anyone to wait for me, I know my way around down there. ok. later... :)
Edited by everyday on 02/09/2012 09:07:14 MST.
torrey your times don't look slow at all to me.what a deal, living in the Park.Can you keep us tuned in regarding the water situation at Cottonwood and the cabin at Roaring Springs ?
Fo Sho! theres always water around, cause a ranger is always at cottonwood camp, and a painter guy lives at the pump-house out by roaring springs. Yes, the faucets are still off in april, but they usually have big gatorade kegs outside full of water, thats where i get my re-fills out there. Also, i know they say not too, but i always drink and fill bottles right outa the creeks down there and ive never gotten sick (i wouldnt in the middle of summer...) But, in winter/early spring it seems fine/ not poluted by lil tourist kids, etc... bring those purifying tablet thingys if youre worried bout it I suppose :)
Hi Torrey- good to know on the water, the "official" site shows no water @ Cottonwood & Roaring Springs- good to know that isn't the case.It'll be nice to have an "insider" w/ the group, I know I probably speak for everyone, but what a nice place to be able to train!Mike
Hey Torrey! Glad you popped in to say hi, it's cool to see a girl represent! I have three daughters, I'm all about the girl power! You're running this stuff pretty fast, I'll try not to trip you up as you go by. I'm shooting more for like a " finish in any way possible" time frame.This is gonna be fun, getting excited people.
I think I'm slowly getting my "plan" laid outfirst question- are two 20 oz bottles going to be enough? one will be water, the other a normal serving of perpetuem (~ 2 scoops)as near as I can figure we're looking at ~ 7 miles for the first available water (Phantom Ranch), ~ 7 miles to the next (Cottonwood), ~ 2 miles to the next (Roaring Springs) and then ~ 9.5 for the next (RS->NK->RS), I carried those two bottles yesterday for a 12 mile run (~ 2.5 hours) and still had water left when done (probably 10-12 oz)- albeit is was only 25 degrees outI'm thinking a person might drink a bottle(s) worth while filling up bottles as well?????next question concerns electrolytes and Perpetuem- it provides roughly 220 mg Sodium, 75 mg of Potassium, 2 mg of Magnesium- is that sufficient for 1.5- 2 hours, ie do I need to be concerned w/ additional/separate electrolytes? I will be popping shot blocks and an occasional gel, which would add ~ 70 mg Sodium, 20 mg Potassium/ hour, I plan on eating some solid food along the way as well which should supplement it more- I'm clueless on electrolyte needsdankeMike
Mike: on my death marches, I rely a lot on drinking at the water sources. I'm a gulper (versus my wife who is a sipper - she likes using a Camelbak whereas) I'll gulp a liter at the trailhead and another liter at each water source. I'll have one or two 1-liter pop bottles if the distances or temps get high, or if I'm treating with iodine. But most of the time those water bottles are low to empty. I pack water mostly to wet my whistle while eating a wrap or sub sandwich while hiking. But HYOH and DYOD (drink your own drink) and don't try gulping if you haven't been doing it in training.My approach is to err on the side of overhydrating a bit and if I'm making clear urine every hour or less, I'm sure I'm getting enough liquids.I like the idea of putting calories into your fluids and am curious what the serious trail-running guys (and gal) recommend in that vein. That's an arena I could improve my knowledge and practice in. I used Gatorload successfully on my 100K hikes in the 1980's (plus copious solid food). I'm sure there's better stuff now. -David
David, on my bike I really liked Powerbar Ironman drink mix (formerly Powerbar endurance) i got a bunch of tubs on clearance before they made the switchit's a bit more pricey now but at 70cal per 8oz serving it's loaded with maltodextrin calories so it's a bit slower burning than straight sugar/corn syruphttp://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4327695not super UL but for a long day a few bottles worth wouldn't be bad.
Thanks Jake. I'll look for it locally and mailorder some if needed and give it a try around town. -David
Mike,The rule of thumb that I use is 1L of water per hour in conditions like we expect to see. You can reduce that by a liter by cameling up at the water sources. The tough part is going to be estimating how LONG between water sources. One thing to keep in mind is the ration of water to calories. Perpetuem is intended to be mixed as directed or at least with the amount of total water per hour. You can find a bunch of info on Hammer's websiteAs far as electrolytes, you will have to play with that to find your level. I probably overdo it a bit but I have avoided any of the nasty effects that I used to experience by having a deficiency.
Be careful about water. You guys are running, hot hiking so dehydration is a very, very bad thing. You are going to experience warm or hot temperatures at the bottom, and very likely dry air at higher elevations, all of which cause you dehydrate. So don't skimp on water. Drink as soon as you feel a little thirsty... this is where a hydration bladder might be of big benefit. Also, don't over-tank when you start, that causes other problems. Just as you want to replace lost calories and minerals as you run, you want to try and keep your water in equilibrium. Also, do not pay too much attention to what others consume or recommend. You need to balance your own body, even if you end up carrying more water than you need.
I'm probably somewhere in between, I'm might throw in an empty platy bottle just to have in caseI'll have a 8-10 Micropur tablets as well, should be decent water running on the north side
I am one who believes in constant small intakes of everything.Everyone needs to experiment on long outings and find what works best for them.
Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 17:20:13 MST.
hey, i dont have like an electrolite "plan" thingy. I take OJ, some gatorade. lemonade with some salt added. Um, some sammiches (PB&J) chocolate bars and potasium vitamin. In general I just eat healthy, meaning whole foods, things that arnt man-made, like meats, fruits ,veggies, and avoid white flour n white sugar. thats bout it. Anywho--on yer guys water discussion, um, its not the mileage ya need to look at for water in the canyon, its the TIME itll take. *For example--the last 7 miles up Kaibab takes at least 2.5 hrs on a good day, since we'll be doin it after goin to the north side, it could take us 3 or more, if you all arnt used to elevation, it could take 4, cause as you go up yer more tired and get less oxygen. (that 2.5 time it my norm/average time) its not 50 minutes like a normal flat ground 7 mile run. its gains 800 ft per mile with no break, it fact it only gets harder on the way up. so, dont look at it as "how much salt/water/calories do i need for a 7 miles run", but "how much do i need for a b**ch of a 3 hour hillclimb up 5000 ft after already runnin 35 miles" People who dont see it that way are the ones the Helo picks up, and its exactly why a boston marathon winner died out here, ;) also, do NOT underestimate food here! in this terrain you want to eat about 250 calories every 1 hour, thats for a 150 lbs person. I weigh 140 and find that 200-250 is good for me. Ive learned the hard way you can never bring too many sammiches!(or too many however you get your calories things) , i only brough 2 on my last 32 mile run to cottonwood camp, and ran outa energy on my way back up Kaibab and was freakin hungry as hell. -BTW, not tryin to scare ya guys off or make it sound horrible! LOL, Its really fun! But only if youre really prepared. Do NOT short yourself on calories or fluids to save weight! thats the biggest thing. you will consume more calories on this 42 mile run than you think! Having snacks left for the end makes a big difference on how you feel climbin outa here. ona personal note to waterbottles, Im bringing my 2 24oz polar bottles in my pack, AND my 20 oz hand-held. thats my normal supply for any run into the canyonHeres a few pics/lonk of the south kaibab from one of my runs down n up, um, link isnt workin, but if you highlight it copy n paste it it does, weird. anyways..http://sangabrielmnts.myfreeforum.org/1st_2012_canyon_run_about4371.html
Edited by everyday on 02/13/2012 06:51:19 MST.
See nutrition thread.
Edited by JakeDatc on 02/13/2012 14:43:17 MST.
Here is a good article for those interested.Weight Change
Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 17:17:59 MST.
Torrey- thanks for posting the pics- looks wonderful! Sounds like I'll definitely take another bottle, maybe it's time to try a handheld :)I'm going to take a stab at times using Cottonwood as a turn around point, with Torrey's posted times and adding ~ 25%, so ~ 1.5 hours SK->Phantom, Phantom -> Cottonwood 2.8 hrs, Cottonwood back to Phantom should be a little easier/quicker 2.0 hrs??????, Phantom ->SK 3.0 hrs- add an hour for breaks/futzing/picture taking- should be in the 10.5 hr rangeguessing using Roaring Springs (additional 4.2 miles) as a turnaround adding ~ 1.5 hrs????, making it ~ 12 hrs- that should be doable (God willing :))
Mike you'll do fine.adding 1.5 hours to your "out" time and using that as an estimate for your return time (assuming same route) should get you pretty close.if you descend SK and ascend BA then you might want to add a bit more to adjust for the extra mileage.
see nutrition thread
Edited by JakeDatc on 02/13/2012 14:43:47 MST.
Electrolyte intake, like nutrition is a very individual thing.
Edited by asandh on 02/13/2012 17:28:43 MST.
enjoy your run guys drink what you usually do and by how you feel and you'll do fine.
Edited by JakeDatc on 02/13/2012 14:42:34 MST.
please start a new thread if you want to continue the discussion.
Edited by asandh on 02/14/2012 08:50:17 MST.
1) There are non-regulars reading this thread with an eye towards going on the trip so even in the midst of mid-February cabin fever, let's be civil and accept that we have different experiences, theories, knowledge bases, and references. But no one is TRYING to steer anyone else wrong.2) I'm a nicer guy on the trail than I am on-line. I hope that's true for others because I'm going on this trip.3) This morning I posed some questions about hyponatremia to a double-board-certified, American College of Physicans member, hospitalist/internist (who I met on a backpacking trip and later married). But I'll start another thread on that under the Food, Hydration, and Nutrition section. Cause it seems to fit there and hopefully won't get too chaffy. -David
Hey you guys...Ive been scannin through the earlier posts, and one thing i saw was that some people wanna come back UP the bright angel trail insteada tha S.kaibab. Bad idea doods. I KNOW you look at'a map n say "ooh its only 2.5 miles longer and different views..." Ive done both, and after going 20+ miles, I prefer SK. The BA IS cool and less steep ,for the first 7 miles, then the last 2.5 take for-freakin-EVER! for a walky/touristy R2R2R hike, itd be cool, but trust me, you wanna come back on the SK...well, thats how im rollin anyways, cause ya, its steeper a little, but after 7 miles, yer done! on the BA, after 7 miles, you have 2.5 miles more, And it feels like 3X longer...the top never seems to get closer and after running so far you tend to not care too much about the views....However, that said, I do LIVE here n see it alot, so my goal is to get a time that doesnt disapoint me, since itll all be new to you guys, maybe ya wanna take BA. Keep in mind though it may be dark by then.....anywho, just my 2cent/personal preferance, no rule says ya hafta go my way of course. I just wanna let ya know that that exctra 2.5 miles seems really far. :) Always keep in mind Grand Canyon miles are different than regular miles. Even if you do lotsa hill climbs n mountainy runs, its basically downhill to get back to yer car or home...Out here, its at LEAST a 7 mile UPhill battle to get out. Maybe compare it to getting dropped off on the TOP of a 8000ft mtn, runnin Down it, then, at the bottom, immidiately turn around and run UP it to finnish, .....then do it twice ;) ...are you SURE that at the very end of that youe'd want to ADD 2.5 extra miles? again, not trying to tell you all not to go that way, I simply want you to be able to really think about it first is all, Maybe you LOVE making things really hard, I do sometimes...so, thats just somethin' to consider. Ok, ima go for a run in the snow!, TTYL!
Edited by everyday on 02/16/2012 08:07:03 MST.
Torrey: Thanks for your thoughts on this. I was one of those thinking the gentler grade and water stops on the BA would make it easier than the SK. I don't have as much experience (BA 8 times, SK 3 times, NK twice) as you do and far less in a run/walk mode.But on water - you're coming right out of Phantom Ranch, all topped off and (while I don't know what they'll be, that afternoon) I'll know exactly the temp, sun, and time so I can bring enough water for the SK. The rocks are a bit hotter on the SK, but there's often more of a breeze.And (see the aside below) the fricking constant slope of the BA gets to me. SK has more variety of slope.And, as you say, a very long, hard day is over sooner on the SK.And there's no shuttling to do - just hobble into your car at the SK trailhead and head for a burger and beer. I have hated waiting for a park shuttle while I'm a little underdressed, the temps are lower, my legs are getting stiff and I'm waiting for bus full of tourists dressing in white shoes and plaid pants.I think you've convinced me. Mike: What are you thinking now? I think you and I are thinking of doing similar hikes/jogs.*An aside on trail slopes: If you need to go 1000 feet up the mountain, absolutely the best way to do that is on a trail sloped 500-600 feet per mile. But when you'll be climbing 10,000 feet in a day, I find a constant trail slope makes it tough. Your basic Rim-River-Rim should be easier than a Half Dome hike. Rim-River-Rim is the same vertical, same or less horizontal but it is 1,500 feet lower in elevation. But even on a non-hot GCNP trip, I am much more sore afterwards, even when I've conditioned MORE for the Grand Canyon. I think it is because almost all the Bright Angel is at that constant slope. I'm doing the SAME dang stride ALL the way down. Then the SAME motions, again and again, the WHOLE way up. Half Dome has variety to it - steep and paved early, those big steps on the Mist Trail, gentle sandy above Vernal, transitioning to those annoying cobblestones along Nevada, sandy flats in LYV, switchbacks from there, then it shallows out, steepens again, before those big steps on the sub-dome and then the cables. With so much variety, my legs and hips don't get near as sore from doing one motion all day long.
David- SK sounds good to me well at least we know where will end and start, now if if we could peer into the crystal ball and see where we head back at :)Mike
My vote is SK-NK-SK too.
I'm flowing downstream with the rest of you fish, so SK-NK-SK.
still on the fence whether its gonna beSK-NK-SKorBA-NK-BAfaster time v.s. harder workout.
enjoyed reading this one:http://devoncrosbyhelms.com/2011/04/grand-canyon-rim-to-rim-to-rim-fastest_23.html
I'm gonna barrel down and crawl back up via SK-NK-SK
that was both inspiring AND painful to read :) congrats to those gals!
I will assume that silence in this particular thread is a good thing- hopefully everyone is doing well! I'm adding a +1 to the list, got the thumbs up this morning on our run. My friend Dan C. is joining our company. His plan to hike the Hayduke with a buddy fell through so R2R2R it is I guess. He's currently living here in NM, but leaving for Bishop, CA at the end of the month for several weeks to climb, so will likely be heading towards the S. Rim around the same time as Craig and Adan. He expressed interest in carpooling. Any space left in one of the eastbound traveling vehicles? If so I can put you guys in contact or try and get him to get in on this thread.
Hey guys! Hello. Ive been quiet cause ive been workin lots n have nothin new to say, ha. Ive just been doin my 6-10 a day 4 days a week (my job is a lot of physical-labor 6-7 hrs a day, thats why im only running 4 days, sometimes 5) Anywho...Im gonna run down Kaibab to the river n back today. Havent been down there ina few weeks. OH! i remember now what i was gonna ask! Hey, since I work for the hotels here, I can get a big room with 2 beds anda couch for half price with my employee discount. Its supposed to be only for myself and/or family, but Pffft, they dont check, It also applys to me staying too, SO, if i reserve n pay for the room n tell them Its for me and friends, itll be cool. then you guys just reimburse me wen ya get here. Itll save ya lotsa money, its half off. BUT I can only get 1 room. but ya could sleep 5 in there if you dont mind sharin a queen sized bed w/another guy. I know theres more than 5 comin out, but thats the best i can do. Ide say ADAN gets a spot fo sho since hes the one i sorta know online/who invited me....then he can pick tha other 4. To make it fair, ide say the peeps with less income get the cheap room. whoever makes more/has better job hasta pay for there own. Obviously ya dont have ta do it that way, but thats how ide pick. Lemme know if ya wanna do this, then I'll make the reservation if theres a room available that night or nights..
Torrey, that's an awesome offer, thank you! I would offer my spot up to Craig and Eugene first for putting this together. You guys call it.I'm good staying in camp or chipping in for a room. Craig's my ride so I'll just tag along wherever.Cant wait to meet everybody and stand on the rim and look out across that thing and breathe it all in and push off finally. All thrilled and nervous just thinking about it. This is what it's all about. I'm a get some!
Thanks for the generous offer Torrey, but I will pass as well. I made reservations for campsite #161 at Mather on the S. Rim, so will stick with that. Not as lux as a climate controlled room and clean linens but that's alright by me. You're welcome to join us all over there. I think the other folks were going to get a site nearby as well.Torrey, how are snow conditions along the N. Rim?
I'm actually anxious to camp out and finish out the days with a beer by a fire. I'll skip the hotel. Finding a hot shower Saturday night would be sweet...Did the campground have showers?
OK. no room, unless someone else say different. Yes there's showers at the mather campgrounds here in the park...dunno bout other places outside the park. And I have a place to sleep, I live here, in my dorm-room in the park. So I have a place, :) I will come visit ya guys at the campgrounds for sure though. If you guys stay at Mather campground, youll be pretty much right across the street from my building. As to snow, we had a sad lil anti-winter here just like the San Gabriel mtns. Theres basically none here or at the north rim either according to the NPS reports I read this morning, the first 1/2 mile of Kaibab is a lil icy but it wasnt bad today when i ran down to the river thismorning. Ill let ya know if anything changes with the snow situation of course :) But if we dont get another storm, there will be nothing here.
Edited by everyday on 02/24/2012 15:14:36 MST.
torrey,These guys like sleeping outside and showers are not that big of a deal to most :)
Ah, ok then :) If things keep goin the way they have been, sleeping outside might be nice even, temperature wise I mean.
I'm writing about my hike this year to do the R2R2R. My running days are over.My intention is to go Memorial Day weekend (Saturday-Sunday) this year. The North Rim will be open by then.I've hiked the SoBo twice (Memorial Day weekend 2010 [8.75-hrs leaving at midnight f/ North Rim] & Memorial Day weekend 2003 [8-hrs leaving at 4-AM f/ North Rim]).A definite preference for starting at North Rim to Yaki and back. Heat, elevation loss/gain, timing and visibility are part of my planning. North Rim because 1) I'd rather finish going up the North Kaibab than the South Kaibab and, 2) then I'm that much closer to Zion/Bryce etc. Not to mention I feel that I have more in common with those that hang out at the North Rim than the South. Less crowded.Since I feel it'll take me 18-19 hours (19-hours is what it took to do the OneDayHike 4-years ago), I'm inclined to start at 2-PM with the expectation of going downhill in the hottest period in the hike and starting up South Kaibab as the sun is setting so that the effort uphill is not exacerbated by the heat of the day and lack of shade. Pushing off from Yaki by 10:30 PM and hopefully arriving at Phantom by 1-AM and Cottonwood by 4-AM, leaves 4-5 hours to climb/crawl the last hellacious 7-miles to the North Rim before the sun could become overly oppressive. I like the fact there is considerably more shade on this portion than the same distance on the South Kaibab. 2-years ago at 3-PM at Cottonwood I heard it was 113-degrees at the trail water spigot the day I did my SoBo. This kind of knowledge factors into my choice of starting time.I don't use headlamps for this kind of hike. You're not going to get lost and I'd rather have my eyes adjusted to all of my surroundings rather than the tunnel vision headlamps creates for me. Shadows can play tricks.I hope y'all have a plan in effect in the event one of you succumbs to one of the many maladies the Canyon can impose at the worst time.Hydration, fuel and electrolyte replacement are CRITICAL.CheersJD
Torrey - a very kind offer, thanks. I might be interested. I figured Mike and I were 10 miles south at the Red Feather Lodge about $250 for the nights of April 13 and 14 ($125/night). But being inside the park would be closer to the campers, give them a free shower option, and a friend here in Alaska is thinking of going, so three beds would be sweet. I've been on the road the last 9 days, so I'll check when I get home if the Red Feather can be cancelled and confirm that my Alaskan friend is coming first. I'm hardly low-income and I agree anyone squeaking by ought to have first dibs on a bargain. Is this for a room on the South Rim in the Park or south of the park in Tuseyan (sp?)?-David
It would be for the south rim, in the park, most likely at Yavapai East. which is a 4 min walk from my place and a 5 min jog from where the guys are staying at Mather. lemme know ASAP! so i can put in a room hold request for those 2 nights. :) Its no prob at all, i just wanna get it in befor were booked, ya know? And the room ide get costs bout same as Red Feather...except half off :)
Torrey:Yes, I can cancel my Red Feather Lodge reservation with no penalty, so if you can, please reserve a room for me (David Thomas) and Mike Moore. I probably also have a friend coming with me from Alaska. We'll drive up from PHX Friday late morning, stay Friday night, Saturday night and drive back to PHX on Sunday.Post here or PM me when you've made a reservation and I'll cancel my other one. If you can't, no problem, we're set as is.Do I remember you're vegan/veggie? If not, I'll bring you some smoked salmon (which, by the way, counts as a vegetable in Alaska).Thanks again for the kind offer. I'd it be nice to be closer to others and the trailhead, and to offer showers to others.-David
Ok, i got reservation in yours and mikes name at Yakvapai East. And no, im NOT a vegatarian, im making fried eggs and porkchops for breakfast right now. I eat anything. well except Hummus, that stuff tastes like poopy dirt, blehk! So, yea, i eat fish, any meats, donuts, cake, watevr you got there :)OH! but just to be safe, dont cancell your reservation at red feather until I tell ya, I just wanna be sure my request has cleared with the front office first, im sure it will...but just to be sure. Ill let you know when its 100% confirmed at the office. It shouldnt be any prob though :) Its just that when its an employee discount request, it has to go through 3 different departments! ha.
Edited by everyday on 03/03/2012 05:44:52 MST.
Torrey: Sounds great. Thanks so much! I'm in no rush to cancel my Red Feather Lodge reservations - I can do that up to 24 hours prior. I just PM'ed my cell phone number to you. -David
Edited by DavidinKenai on 03/06/2012 09:56:02 MST.
Alright, I'm in. I'll be arriving late Friday night and staying through Sunday afternoon. I'll likely have at least one other person in tow(Josh Malpass).Sounds like most everyone is camping at Mather. Does anyone have room for an extra vehicle or shall I book another site?Anyone started thinking about what time they'd want to start?BB
I have room. You can find the site number in earlier post. Or I can hunt it down.
I was thinking in the neighborhood of a 4am start..?
Awesome, site #160. Thanks!BB
Brian, glad you're joining us. I'm leaning towards a 4am start, or shortly after. I would love to finish climbing up S. Kaibab with the sun still up on the horizon.How about everyone else?
4am seems reasonable to me. I'll plan on that. I'm sure some will start earlier and some optimistic fast guys might start later:-)B
I was going to sleep in until maybe 10. Actually 4am sounds good. Anybody given any thought to a target finish time or is the general thought just to wing it?
Editted to add: Well, if everyone else is doing 4 am, I'm game for that. Everyone obviously will have a light with them (right?!? for late night safety options if nothing else). We will have red-eyed into PHX Thursday/Friday night but maybe 2/3 of us can snooze on the drive up Friday.From the site, http://www.sunrisesunset.com/USA/NationalParks/for GCNP South Rim, April 14th:Civil Twi: 5:30amSunrise: 5:57amSunset: 7:01pmCivil Twi: 7:27pmMoonrise: 2:10amMoonset: 1:10pmA day past (less than) last quarter of the moon.Civil twilight (sun is 6 degrees below horison) is pretty conservative for hiking, IME. Nautical twilight (12 degrees) is pretty darn hikeable and that gives a window from 5 am to 8 pm without the need for headlamps. There'll be a "half" moon low to the SE and most of SK faces N and W, so counting on moon light to start at 4 am seems a little dodgy to me. And there will be NO evening moonlight.For us hiker-runners (with an emphasis on the hiking) which I believe includes Alaskans Tony and me and Mike from Montana, I'm thinking we want to maximize our daylight for a 14-15-16 hour day. It would be a pity to miss sunrise by starting after 6 am. I'm thinking wake up at 5 am, SK trailhead at 5:30 am. You guys (and gal) who can do it in 10 hours could sleep in and get your beauty rest. We'll say "hi" as you blast past us.I've got my high-altitude training scheduled way too soon (backpacking with the kids at 8,000 feet on Haleakala, leaving tomorrow), so I'll be mostly off-line for 8 days.
Edited by DavidinKenai on 03/06/2012 10:24:57 MST.
I have this 12-13 hour finish time in my head, but I think it is a bit lofty for my first time and my current fitness, most likely I will have it handed to me and I will take what the canyon gives....so probably hell. ;-) Getting down and starting the initial ascent up N. Kaibab will likely come quickly, especially in the early hours when it is dark, its that return down and up where time is going to accumulate.More or less I am "winging it" and going with the flow of the day and how my body feels. This is my first R2R2R so my number one goal is pleasure, gotta enjoy it, number two goal is to finish.
I like the 4am idea as it maximizes campfire time post run....which is a prime motivator for me:-)I'll likely carry a headlamp/windshirt and stash it near Phantom Ranch. I did this last year with my headlamp and several layers that I wore early in the morning but wouldn't need until the afternoon/early evening. This plan worked out well and gave us a little bit of warmth/light for the segments where you're likely to need it.BB
I'm leaning to a 5:00 am start for the following reason :want to minimize darkness at the start because the start is downhill, we are fresh, and can run.don't mind darkness at the end because I will be slow due to uphill and fatigue.this strategy should yield an overall faster time, by my reasoning.think my partners and I are leaning towards BA-NK-BA. should be a long day.
Brian: was that a R2R2R you did? You figure you don't need your outer layer on the North Rim at midday? Cause you're moving, tag the sign, and drop back to warmer temps below?I did a (no-conditioning, 19-hour, no-running) R2R2R in late April once and, yeah, only needed shorts and tee shirt on the North Rim, but by 9 pm coming s-l-o-w-l-y up the SK, I wanted more clothes near the top.
Art: I see your point about more running downhill early than uphill running late. Especially with the gentler slope on the BA.Is there is must-leave-by time vis-a-vis the evil burro trains? The uphill one I don't mind stepping aside for. It's any downhill ones that I want to be in front of.
Yeah, my girlfriend and I ran it last year in mid-April. I started out with a headlamp/windshell/beanie that I didn't need once we hit the river. She gets cold easily so she had a few layers that she didn't need once things warmed up. There's a nice ledge near the bridge that is out of sight and hard to climb to. We stashed a bit of stuff there with no trouble.BB
Brian,I hope you don't mind me asking, what was your time last year for the double? Did you both get after it or take it "easy"?
David : I went down BA 3 years ago at 5:00am and did not meet any mule trains, hit Phantom just before 7:30am
We cruised it! There was 3 of us(myself, Stephanie and out friend Tracie). It took us 16 hours car to car. That included a lengthy, shoes off lunch break at the North Rim as well as a lengthy stop at Phantom on the way back. Likely 2 hours of down time between those two rests alone.The three of us all felt like we could have done more like 12 hours if we were in a hurry. The Rae Lakes Loop took Joshua and I a little over 11 hours this past fall.....I'd be really happy to do something similar on the R2R2R but I'm not too attached to going fast. If the scene at the North Rim begs relaxation.....I'll happily lay in the pines for awhile:-)
Mules on BA roll out by 0730-0800, so youll have em beat if yer leavin at 0500 or so. For SK, the pack mules come UP at that time, so, again, no prob there, theyre going up while we'll be going down. Im taking Kaibab the whole way. BA'a my summer trail. :)
torreyon the BA do the mules start up at 7:30, down at 7:30, or both ?
Awesome Brian! You guys are strong. Btw, did you make it to the iditarod invitational afterall? If so, how was the experience? I'm sure we'll all pick at you about it in April when we meet up.
@ Art, they, the mules, go DOWN BA at that time. :)
Edited by everyday on 03/07/2012 23:19:47 MST.
post deleted.
Edited by vaporjourney on 03/09/2012 12:46:30 MST.
Thanks to all of you for the huge support, Feeling the love right now!For those interested...Injury training plan week 1. Goal is to maintain conditioning only. 1-2hr daily workout followed by slow 20 minute run. Foam roller on the ITB before each run. Week 2 bring build back up to a 1hour run with cross training every other day maybe. Mon..1:00 underwater running, :10 runTues...1:20 cycling, :20 core, :20 runWe'd...1:20 underwater running, :20 run
Edited by Lopez on 03/14/2012 21:55:29 MDT.
Welp, after both running 25 miles last weekend with 5,500 ft of gain AND booking Mather site #159, I'm officially joining the festivities at the South Rim. I'll be bringing my family; consisting of my Girlfriend, her 4 yr old son, and our 3 month old daughter. The daughter and son are both very chill, and can always wander away with Tanya if need be. If anyone has any reservations about bringing kids near the camping area, please feel free to say so and we can either move to another site and/or put the kids up for adoption (I kid!). Either way, the stoke is high for this run. My gear will surely be simple: -UD wasp with 64 oz bladder-20 oz handheld (homemade bike tube variety)-synthetic souvenir race tee-Headsweats visor-Optic Nerve sunglasses-arm warmers-Golite Wisp windshirt-running shorts from target (w/ MYOG outer pockets for salt)-Drymax Hyperlite socks-Some sort of La Sportiva shoe (testing out Vertical K's this weekend)I plan to primarily fuel by rocking Mike Clelland goo's, supplemented with some fig newtons and chips. Water all the way with Succeed! caps for electrolytes, and surely lemonade at Phantom Ranch as a treat. I may also bring an mp3 player to rock some heavy metal and/or hip-hop on that final climb if and when I hit a serious wall...
good deal, this going to be fun!
Eric - I think we're in the site next to yours.we'll try not to keep the kids awake with our all night partying the night before the run.
Eric,So what you're saying is I should plan on leaving the Colt 45 and NWA album in the car. Ok. ;-)I'm glad both you and your family are coming, looking forward to meeting everyone. Your list looks really good, simple. Save a few Newtons for me will ya?
Eugene-I made it back from the ITI! It was a great trip and experience although the race itself didn't go quite as planned.I went up there for 2 different races....the ITI and the Susitna 100. I entered the bike category in both. The Susitna was absolutely incredible in all respects: perfect weather, great trail conditions, good company and my legs felt great.The ITI was a complete fiasco. It snowed 3 feet in the 48 hours before the event. We had no trail to follow and were in knee to thigh deep snow basically from the start line. I walked my bike to Yentna(70 miles into the race) and it took almost 48 hours to get that far. At that point a few of us did the math and decided that we didn't really want to walk next to our bikes for the next 6 days. We wound up taking a very scenic flight out with a local pilot. Soo.....long story short....a fantastic, memorable experience but not the best race.Looking forward to meeting ya'll soon. I'm sure a group like this will have more than enough stories to occupy many a campfire hour.
Eric, we're all family people, no problem at all. But they have to run the canyon with us! ;)Heck, my wife has played with the idea of showing up with my kids. My brother who's a road biker has told me he's going to be there to watch me crawl out of the canyon and cheer me on. We'll see, i may tell them to stay home if my legs dont show up soon.Totally impressed by Brian's adventures and misadventures.
Whoa there friends, no need to leave the 40oz bottles at home! Drink all the whiskey and Colt 45 you want. None of us are uptight, and I sure as heck don't try to shield my family from alcohol and/or fun. I have a slight suspicion that no one will have a raging drinking session the night before, but if there is energy, maybe the night after??Brian: I'm completely excited to chat with you if you show up about the ITI. This race is high on my list, though I'm horrified of the entry fee ;)
"I'm completely excited to chat with you if you show up about the ITI."So is there going to be a sizeable Alaskan (residents and wanna-bes) doing R2R2R?More than the terrestial 300-milers, I've been eyeing that little cross-border, 300-mile canoe race that goes from our friend neighbor to the east down the Yukon River.I learned long ago that the best way to keep your mind off the pain of your current death march is to be planning the next one as you hike.I've got the smoked salmon set aside in the freezer for the trip to PHX.
I'll bring my laptop so you can view some photos from the 2 races this winter.....that'll have you convinced about the need to get up there!Back on topic.....if I keep rolling my left ankle I'm going to be doing some serious walking on April 14th!
I think I'd fall into the Alaskan Wanna-be category......I've been up there 3 times in the past 13 months! B
Can we get another head count? The other one done a while ago was buried in one of these threads and new people have popped up since then.I'm trying to get the beer mugs finished but I'm not sure I've made enough...don't want to leave anyone out. Just need the number of runners.Tell me if this is right for R2R2R participants:CraigAdanEugeneDan M.Dan H.MartinArt +3GregMike M.David ThomasRob Lee (hiking to the river and back and support)TorreyBrianEricJoshua M.So I've got 18.Did I miss anyone?Updated to include Joshua M.Updated for Martin and Dan M.Updated for Art +3
Edited by xnomanx on 03/21/2012 22:51:02 MDT.
Craig-Beer mugs! That's awesome. Thanks for taking the time to do that.I'll have Joshua Malpass with me, so I guess that makes 15
OK, got Joshua.
Craig: That's very kind of you. I once mentioned bringing a friend, but he has to re-cert on his firearms training that week. So only one of us from Kenai Alaska on your list is correct. -David Thomas
Craig,Coming from New Mexico:Myself Dan HewinsMartin Miera (my father in law)Dan Carter (currently in Sedona climbing, should be there on April 14th)You're the man.
Craig- very nice gesture- if you want you can drill some holes in mine at ~ the 3/4 mark or put on there R2closebutnocigar2R :)David- sent you a pm w/ my motel infoMike
OK, adding one more to the list from the Nuevo Mexico Posse.Anyone that can't finish will get a commemorative 8oz. "Rim to...Almost" sippie cup. :)
Craig said "Anyone that can't finish will get a commemorative 8oz. "Rim to...Almost" sippie cup. :)"perfect! :)
I'm getting in on this a little late and not sure if I can make it - or if there is any room left. How many miles is this total, 50+-?I just moved to the southwest and have no hiking buddies here! I'd love to meet some SW BPLers.
Art +3 (rather than +2).not 100% yet, but high probablity we'll be bringing the second female runner to the canyon trails.and David, since you're looking for Alaskans, I went to high school in the Anchorage area, but it was so many years ago I call myself a native Californian now.
OK Art.Jon, most of the info you're looking for is the links on the first page of this thread.Off the top of my head, you're looking at ~42 miles and ~20,000' of +/-.Let us know, I'm sure there's somewhere to stay.
Edited by xnomanx on 03/21/2012 22:53:15 MDT.
Jon: 42 miles if you go South Kaibab - North Kaibab - South Kaibab. Bright Angel - North Kaibab - Bright Angel is a shallower slope but longer.But it ain't the miles, it's the vertical feet. A mile down, a mile up, a mile down and that final, grueling mile up. I've done it when I was half my age and that last vertical mile up was a b***h.If you've done 10,000 feet (up+down) in a day, you can probably extrapolate what R2R2R is like. If you haven't, you maybe ought to do a 10K vertical day first.That may sound arrogant, but truly, I mean it compassionately.But if you're 23 and haven't done any training yet? WTH, go for it. Worked for me. I couldn't walk for 5 days afterwards, but I'm still glad I did it.But this time? I'm training more and maybe hiking less far.
Still lurking here and still in for half-a-hike. I'll have a truck & small trailer at Mather #162 on Thur, 2 wheelbarrows of dry firewood, 2 ice chests,room for tents,and a 6.5' pu bed w/ a camper top and a cot inside. Trailer kitchen available for all. Could also bring pads & bags if someone can't bring all they need on a plane. I'll just need to know in advance. I've learned a lot from you guys and you've inspired me to make this trip. Mi casa tu casa.
Craigthe Art +3 (John, Nick, Carlyn(female))does not include my brother, Ray, who is coming as a sort of backup support guy. he'll do BA-Phantom-BA. did you say something about sippie cups? does he qualify?Jon L.RRR stats :South Kaibab-North Kaibab-South Kaibab is 42 miles (most runners in this group)Bright Angel-North Kaibab-Bright Angel is 47 miles (a few of us)elevation gain is the key though, and roughly the same for either way, 10,000 to 11,000 ft depending on how you calculate it.
Edited by asandh on 03/22/2012 06:36:21 MDT.
Hey, for those of you going halfway, maybe consider going a couple more miles to get to Ribbon Falls. Its an easy walk from Phantom, and Its worth it and a very nice place for lunch, rest, a shower if its hot, and a photo op. Its where i usually run to on my days off to chill and eat too. heres a link to pix I took in November. (taking SK to falls is a couple miles shorter than the 16 I posted here...guess it'd be more like 13.5-ish from SK) http://sangabrielmnts.myfreeforum.org/about4288.html
Edited by everyday on 03/22/2012 06:59:25 MDT.
David and all, this sounds really intriguing. I'm 27 and in good shape. To be honest though, I'm not much of a trail runner and don't have much experience. I averaged about 16+ or so miles a day hiking on the Long Trail when I lived in Vermont with a 20+ pound pack. So this would be longer and more grueling, but I would only be carrying a day pack.For the "halfway" crowd are there plans to eventually drive back to the main trailhead for people to pick up their cars? I've read it's a long drive. Is there a halfway crowd?Let me ponder this today. I would love to join but not sure if I can hang with the trail running crowd. I live within driving distance of the trail, so it is a possibility - and I'd love to meet some SW BPLers as I said before.
Joneveryone is doing an "out and back".that means the halfway crowd will not go all the way to the North Rim.they will go to Phantom Ranch, Cottonwood, Roaring Springs, then turn around and go back to South Rim.yes its a bit of a logistical issue to get from North Rim back to South Rim if that's where your hike ends.as others have mentioned, its not just about the mileage, the 10-11,000 ft of elevation gain will kick your butt.
Thanks Art, I realize most of the info is in the thread, but it's tough to sift through 20 pages.
Jon- I believe the North Rim is closed (May 15 opening???) hence the start at the South Kaibab, I'd love to do a R2R as I'm more comfortable w/ that mileage :) thus the reason we're all starting (and finishing) on the South sidenot sure of the status of the road(s) to the North Rim- perhaps it is open????, I'm sure we could we do a key pass and have the vehicle on the North driven around to the South- it is a long ways though ~ 200 milesMike
I think Art's idea of doing an out and back makes more sense. Even if the road is open, it's a FAR drive.
Jon: It sounds like you know or can assess what you're in for based on your experience. If you haven't done any GCNP hikes, you may not grasp just how many climatic conditions you can experience in day. An early morning start could be 20F if the night was clear and cold. Mid afternoon in the Inner Canyon could be 85F. Hopefully the Rim will be in high 30s and it won't get over 75F at the River, but you never know - I've had 110F in summer and then driving hail and high winds 2 hours later.I promise you I'm hiking more than I'm running. I haven't gotten ANY trail running yet cause (1) there's still 3 feet of snow and (2) I don't want to run on the highway. So I've been doing stairs, stationary bike and stomping around in snow shoes. Mike has also indicated he's more of a lover not a fighter, er, I mean hiker not a runner.There's a park shuttle from the Bright Angel Trailhead back to South Kaibab Trailhead, but not if you finish at 10 pm (like I did walking my first R2R2R). So I'm returning to the South Kaibab trailhead where my car will be parked.
Ya'll are hardcore. I can hike for 18 hours straight easy. Since I found and replied to this thread I have started to trail run. I can do a difficult trail for about 4 miles at altitude before being winded. Kudos to everyone doing this. There is no way I can run this trail. Honestly, I admire everyone partaking in this. Though I won't be running this with you, this thread has created a new love for trail running in me and hopefully this time next year (or on a Fall trip) I will join BPL for a R2R2R2 run.
Edited by jleeb on 03/27/2012 19:32:29 MDT.
100% handmade high fire (~2350 F) stoneware. Everything is drying and awaiting firing now. Hope I don't jinx things with this picture, there's still a few things that could go wrong. High fire ceramics is never exact; a few variables will get introduced in the glazing and firing...but so far, I'm happy with everything.Here's to a good day out there and filling these up on Saturday night!
Craig, This is really an amazing thing you are doing for these guys. I'm excited to meet you all. My plan is to have the campfire ready to go and plenty of iced beverages for when the REAL trekkers finish.
Whaaaaaaaaaaat!!!??? Unreal Craig, unreal. Those are blowing my mind right now. Wow.
Dood! those mugs are so cool! Awesome job! :) I dont drink alcohol, but theyll work for my chocolate milk!
Craig- those look amazing! any preview of the sippie cup :)Mike
Yes! those mugs are totally beer worthy.
Those are looking great Craig! Should sit nicely next to my Jemez pottery, but may get more use.
I don't know about ya'll....but I'm getting excited. Should be a great day outside with good people.Our plans have changed a little(I got the day off work!).....so we'll be arriving by noon or soo on Friday.Craig: Those look fantastic.....thanks a ton for doing that. Assuming you dig beer.....any requests that I can bring you?
Yes! Maximum Excite! too! :) only 2 more weeks. I went down Bright Angel to Tonto east to S. Kaibab and up for my morning run, and its a lil warm. I wore shorts, a nike dry-fit T with a long-sleeve dryfit over it, and ditched the long sleeve an hour into my run (at bout 0815) T and shorts were fine the whole way, even wen i got back to the rim. (at bout 01100) The Tonto is pretty exposed though, and deserty. ima still bring some kinda warmie top on our r2r2r run/walk/hike/jog/crawl. I didnt need my YakTrax either anymore, the snow n ice is gone, at both trailheads. If this weather holds til the 14th itll be a perfect day :)
torrey - its great to have an insider keeping us tuned in to the trail and weather conditions.
Craig, incredibly cool!!!!This is getting close and I'm so pumped! Great to hear that Art survived his 50 in one piece. Torrey, no problem on the alcohol, I will drink yours if needed. Sounds like everyone is healing up. This will be a great adventure!!!!!!!
There was some discussion several months back about commemorating the always vibrant and positive late George Matthews. I understand this doesn't do a man and a full life any justice, but here is a small way for us to pay a man some respect when we embark on our R2R2R in two weeks. I remember seeing several photographs of George with his thumbs up and a smile on his face, that image kind of stood with me. This design will be on a small button for us to pin to the backs of our packs when we run down into the Grand Canyon.Thanks for the laughs George.
Nice touch Eugene. You guys have a good time. George will be along all the way.
Cool Eugene, I like it.
very nice!
Eugene - a nice and thoughtfull way to keep George with us during our run.
Craigwe're back down to Art +2the newcomer in our group just backed out, sorry.
I've added another to my group.....Jake Nelson. Soo....I guess the headcount remains the same!Man....I'm excited.
Am I still tha only girl goin?
Eugene, thats friggin rad man. Torrey, i think theres one other girl running with us last i heard.
there was a girl coming with us but she cancelled recently, so torre may be the only girl racing down the trails on April 14.
When my son started high school, he went out for cross country. The team had a one week summer camp at Big Bear, CA. The last day of camp there was the traditional inter-squad boys/girls cross country race.When I asked him, prior to the race, what he hoped to run he had only one goal... "Not be behind any girls at the finish line."Well, that didn't happen, as one girl beat him.So... next year he set the course record. Guess he felt humiliated and worked hard from that race forward. ----------------------------------------This event is going to be interesting :)
Not surprised.
"Not surprised."nm
Edited by Eugeneius on 04/03/2012 22:01:48 MDT.
Having read 'Born to Run' I for one understand that the ultra distance is running's great gender equalizer (just google Anne Trason if you have doubt) and as such will just be glad to run with any humans who show up. I have been asking myself "are we there yet?" all week...
Edited by hewinsd on 04/03/2012 22:06:49 MDT.
My wife to coming with me to the CG but I haven't yet convinced her to join us on the run. Maybe with a little help for the rest of you we can get her to go.
Pam Reed 2002 and 2003 Badwater winner, in the top 5, 2 more times and top 10 several more.135 miles non-stop from Death Valley to Mt. Whitneyhttp://www.badwater.com/route/index.htmlhttp://www.badwater.com/results/index.html
Edited by annapurna on 04/04/2012 10:25:05 MDT.
Awesome Anna, thanks for sharing.a few more:Diana FinkelDarcy AfricaKami SemickAnita OrtizKrissy MoehlInspiring individuals and tenacious competitors! I have a major school boy crush on Krissy Moehl.Torrey, you may be the only female going, but you're amongst good company, please don't let the majority male attendance be a deterent from you joining the group. I'm looking forward to meeting you and sharing some trail in your backyard.T-minus 10 days and counting folks! Yip yip. Weather outlook is looking solid gold.
++1 for Krissy.and for those not familiar,SoCal heartthrob Keira Henninger is pretty hardcore too.runs 50k to 100m.she even has a shot at winning this weekends Oriflamme 50k outright, guys and all.
Pam Reed's wins are outright wins (men's and women's)in 2003 she beat Dean Karnazes
Eugene- I'll be mailing a small package out to you tomorrowDavid- sent you a pm on my hotel infothanksMike
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Helen Klein so far. Check this link out for her accomplishments in 2002 when she was in her early 80's. I will remember her for the rest of my life as the 60 something lady who dusted my sorry a$$ between miles 48-49 of the American River 50 in 1982. I was hurting pretty bad and she chirped at me as she sailed by, "Keep going, Sonny; you can do it". She was in her early 60's then and already a legend. Yeah, women can definitely hold their own when it comes to ultra distance running. Or any other distance, for that matter, IME.http://www.usatf.org/athletes/bios/MountainUltraTrail/Klein_Helen.asp
Edited by ouzel on 04/04/2012 18:05:36 MDT.
Sounds good Mike, I will be on the lookout for it. Any chance your package might alert the dogs at the Border Patrol check points? I joke with you.
torreycan you tell us about the new water filling stations that are supposed to be replacing bottled water sales?I read that there is one at the North Kaibab trailhead but that it is only seasonal.Do you know the dates ?
I did it as a fast pack last weekend. Some water is on and some is off. As long as you are on bright angle creek water is plentiful, off that it's scarce. There is water on the north rim but it's a walk in.
is Cottonwood and Roaring Springs water ready?thanks
FYI:Pipeline Break in the Boxdate posted Apr 3, 2012The transcanyon pipeline that delivers water to Phantom Ranch is broken approximately 2 miles north of Phantom Ranch in an area called The Box. A National Park Service maintenance crew is working on fixing the pipeline break.During a pipeline break, it is always a good idea for hikers heading to Phantom Ranch to carry a backup water purification method. Because Bright Angel Creek is somewhat turbid right now due to the spring melt on the North Rim, a filter is a better choice than chemical or ultraviolet purification methods. Be aware the Colorado River is also muddy due to spring melt.---So the recent mention of water leaves me wondering - is there any way to get information about water availability at the designated stops?
hmmmm, thanks for the heads up.on the one hand ... a slow motion government repair project.on the other hand ... Phantom Ranch has paying guests who need their water.lets see how long this takes.
Cottonwood had water last weekend. Roaring springs did not.
by water at Cottonwod, do you mean water from the faucets?I know there is ground water we can filter.and Roaring Springs, did you go by the House?they must have had tap water there?
I guess we'll wait to see what happens with the pipeline break. Would this mean the option of paying for water at Phantom or filtering water from the river in the event it isn't repaired by next weekend? Maybe someone familiar could post up a Grand Canyon Water Wiki post and update it. I have read online info, but it seems there are other resources. Either way I will have enough bottles to tank up for a possible long stretch heading up NK.
even if Phantom Ranch had bottled water for sale (doubtful, pretty dang expensive)we would pass through there on our way north before the store opened.some kind of backup water filter may be on the gear list.
don't see water here, but plenty of wine to fill our bottles...
i dunno whats at roaring springs and cottonwood at this exact time, i just drink creek water, been doin it for years. As to the girl issue, no, i dont mind being the only one at all, I usually hang out with guys....i dont think i even have more than 2 friends who're girls. Im into cars, and racing em and im the only girl in my car club, so im used ta that, ....anywho...im not more helpful right now because my older brother is finally losing his fight with cancer, hes not expected to survive the week, and also I had major drama/ boyfriend issues yesterday... but at least those are fixed now, so ima just take care of myself right now and focus on running, i dont even know howta make my brain work to be able ta care bout yer questions, sorry, I just got too much other stuff in it right now, -- ill see ya guys when you get here. ok :)gimmi a few days ta findout water stuff, n ill give ya what I know next wednesday,the 11th, b4 ya guys head out here, ok? I can do that at least, im just not gonna do it right this second
Edited by everyday on 04/05/2012 20:05:34 MDT.
Torrey, take care of yourself. We'll see you Friday.
Sorry to hear about your brother. Take care of yourself and your family Torrey.
Good luck to all of you. I'd like to make some snide comment, but the truth is, I'm insanely jealous that anyone has the physical ability to do this.
Torrey- very sorry to hear about your brotherMike
Sorry to hear this news, hope everything works out ok. Hasta viernes.
this isn't looking so good :(
Since the weather people are always wrong we are sure to see great weather.
You have ta look at tha details, ive been watching that storm...But its only a 20% chance of rain that day, So, thats an 80% chance it wont, (yesterday, the report said 40% chance...so its goin down... and even wen it does rain here it moves on pretty fast....im goin rain or shine, i wont melt.
seeing I'm flying a 1000 miles to get there, kind of goes w/o saying :)
well no mention today on the GC web site of the pipeline break that was posted April 5. does that mean its been repaired ?hmmm, freezing rain, or scorching heat. which would we prefer ?
I received a reply yesterday from my friend who works with the USFS and lives at the S. Rim Village, he told me the pipeline is fixed and Cottonwood and Roaring Springs will be running soon if not currently. Also the trails are clear all the way up N. Kaibab, he said there should be no need (as of now) for microspikes. Water should be fine.Now for that weather? Hmmm. I would rather take scorching heat than freezing rain, but I'm a desert rat. Ill take what I can get, looking forward to this.
If I have any say I'll take the cold weather. However, the cold-and-wet is another story. Hopefully those 50-60F temps will occur sans the possible precipitation.
Edited by hewinsd on 04/07/2012 19:43:07 MDT.
Fun times. Freezing rain changes the game plan a bit. As Dan said...I love cold, but cold and wet for 12 hours or more is a whole different thing.But hey, what can we do. I guess this means I'll carry a bigger pack, some raingear, and a synthetic puffy.It still scares me less than scorching heat though....
Mike,rain or shine, kind of goes w/o saying :)A great "old guy" attitude!
I checked local weather just now,(sunday 8th) and now it says zero percent chance of rain for the 14th, just cool n cloudy. So, it went from 40%, ta 20% ta 0%...however its now 50% chance for friday, so it may b a lil wet when u arrive....its still 5 days away though, so im sure itll change again! Ha! and also...just caus its rainin a lil bit up on the rim, has nothin to do with the weather in the canyon...bring sum rain gear stuff in the car, and see how things look at like 0400 saturday i suppose.Im really glad this is going on this weekend! Its given me something good to keep focused on.
Edited by everyday on 04/08/2012 07:27:10 MDT.
yup- now it's saying cloudy and 48, cool and cloudy would be ideal (for us non-desert rat types anyways :))
So how does the canyon soil hold up to a good drenching? Water and cold could mean muddy conditions on the right types of soil and it could also mean icy conditions near the rims. I'll be bringing spikes, rain shell, insulation, two extra socks, and bivy with me just in case. Now figuring out how I would fit all that in my running pack is going to be a challenge. Fortunately, Most of this will actually stay in the car but might as well be ready.
from my past hikes I think the soil is mostly pretty sandy. However I did encounter some mud conditions on the last 500-1000 feet up to the north rim where there is more forest.no spikes for me.if there is any ice, it will be mild, and only for a short ways near the rim. not worth the weight for the entire run ... for me.
I was thinking microspikes as well to throw in, but I'm just doing a carry-on- I'm afraid TSA might not let them go by :(
Just read the BP magazine writup of the R2R2R and now I'm starting to think that it can't be done. Doom, Gloom, Death and Destruction. See below and make sure you read the comments on Page 3. :Ohttp://www.backpacker.com/hiking_new_life_list_monster_dayhike/destinations/14373
Should make for an interesting trip report! Defying Death and the Odds.
Sshhhh....Second thoughts can be contagious. :)I doubt there's anyone in our group that isn't wondering what's in store for them on Saturday. There are certainly plenty of daunting and scary scenarios that anyone can conjure up.But that's also why we're all going out there. If the outcome were guaranteed, there would be no point to it, would there?And it's very easy to second guess training. Was it enough? Have I done everything I can? Am I ready? I doubt there are many athletes on Earth, regardless of caliber, that don't dwell on these questions come performance day. I'm certainly going through plenty myself, possibly being too hard on myself, perhaps not being hard enough. Who knows.I know there's going to be some pain waiting out there in some shape or form for all of us. I know things can go wrong. But I have to fall back on the belief that I'm ready, that I've put in enough big days over the last months and years to be ready, that I know my body well enough.One thing I certainly can't afford to do right now is listen to any stranger's opinion of how crazy, stupid, dangerous, hard, or risky this is. So I stopped reading those comments in the article as soon as I could see where they were going.Hard is a relative term, but I know that plenty of us have put in many hard days yet still finished knowing we could have gone harder. I believe I've done enough to get me across and back in one piece....So what the hell, let's go see.
Edited by xnomanx on 04/08/2012 14:23:11 MDT.
Craig,I'm not really having any second thought at all. I was packing up for the trip and wanted to get more info on water to know how I wanted to pack out the Malto. I ran across that article with the comments and was quite entertained. It is amazing how many folks view a certain challenge as completely insurmountable or that "it must not be fun for others since it would be fun for me."You do bring up an interesting point...... Now that we are done with the training how is their condition vs there desire or expectations. Scale of 1-10 where 10 is completely ready and 1 is Doom, Gloom, Death and Destruction.I would say that I'm about at an 8. Overall the training went actually better than expected but I took off two points because I had limited elevation and I'm still 3 lbs. over my target weight.How about others?
the thing about something like the RRR is that if you go slow enough you can go any distance. the only real question mark is being able to go xx distance in xx time.so if somewhere along the trail on April 14, if you feel too stressed out, just slow down a bit, and it will be no problem getting the job done ... rain or shine.
I'm not even going to read that Backpacker article, they enjoy sensationalizing everything and crank out garbage consistently. There editors are proficient with the use of hyperbole.I am ready to do this ready or not. I guess if I had to use your scale Greg, I'm like a 7. I have an idea what this is going to be like but actually getting out there and doing it is a whole different thing.
hmmm, 2 weeks ago I was an 8.5, then 2 days after Old Goat I caught a really bad cold. should be back up to 7 by April 14, or even 8 again if this week goes well.the thing in my favor is I know exactly what to expect, and pretty much exactly how I'll react to it, so one foot in front of the other.
I am planning to pack powder drink mixes - other than plastic baggies rolled and put into a larger bag or plastic vessels does anyone have advice on how to pack this stuff well? I guess packing them tight is a big thing and maybe rolling them up and putting a piece of tape around to hold them tight..?
Edited by hewinsd on 04/08/2012 20:56:00 MDT.
Hmmm...hard to rate it. I'd guess I'd say I'd grade my training thus far as a B-. I could've been more disciplined. But contrasted with other markers, I'm running stronger than last year when I ran an 8 hour 50K with 9000' last spring in Bishop(race was primarily at over 7000' as well). So overall, I guess I'm satisfied with where I am.How am I feeling? Probably a 7. But we'll see what happens on Saturday. Maybe I'll be inspired for some personal heroics, maybe I'll just plod/hike the whole thing out.
I don't have a clue on where to rate myself, I guess that pretty much leaves the 10 out :) I'm pretty sure I'm only going as far as Roaring Springs (and back obviously) ~ 32 miles; too many set backs and starting my running from scratch simply didn't give me enough timeI've done several DIAD hikes over rough mountainous country in the 30-ish mile range, so I'm confident I'll make it. I'm clearly in the best shape running wise that I've ever been, so that's a big plus. If for some reason I'm making really good time AND the angels are singing especially loud- I haven't ruled out the entire length, just would rather be realistic and 32 miles for this kid isn't too shabby :)Dan- I had some small 3x5 ziplocks that were just about the right size for two scoops of Perpetuem- I've got seven of those packed into a quart ziplock. Hopefully TSA doesn't call DEA when they see this white powder wrapped in a ziplock :)
Thanks Mike. I've thought the same thing about the powder in the bags since we'll be passing through the border check point heading north out of the desert.
I will doing something a bit different for my Malto powder than the normal zipper bags. I will have three 32 oz. gatoraid bottles with 900 calories of powder each. This will be easier than pouring bags and will give me the water capacity for the return uphill if needed.
" I guess pacing them tight is a big thing and maybe rolling them up and putting a piece of tape around to hold them tight..?"A small rubber band around each individual baggie works a lot better-easier to remove. You can use a larger rubber band to hold multiple baggies together.Also, baggies are lighter than bottles but harder to pour from if you use the zip loc opening. An easier way, if you have a small pair of scissors like those on the Swiss Army Classic knife, is to unroll the baggie, tilt it so the powder moves up and to one side, then cut an ~1/2-3/4" diagonal piece from the empty bottom corner end of the baggie. Now you have a perfect hole to pour the powder from. It will flow easily and without spilling into your bottle. If you try to pour from the main opening, the powder gets hung up on the zip loc ridge and tends to spill out to both sides. Try it both ways and I think you will see what I mean.Best of luck to all you guys and gal. That is one challenging run.
for packing my powders (perpetuem) I go with a sandwich sized ziplock rolled fairly tight, then placed inside another sandwich sized ziplock. don't need rubber bands, and I prefer this over putting them all in one large ziplock, just a personal preference.Mikedo you have a time limit for your run? that would be the determining factor for a turnaround assuming you are healthy.I'd give about 1 hour longer for the return than for the outbound.John V. and I will be doing the 47 mile version and we expect to be out there from 14-15.5 hours depending.
The multihour malto solution that you've worked up Greg is clever. Do you plan 4 hours or so per bottle? I can't wait to pick your head a bit on fueling, sounds like you have this stuff down to a science.
I will be doing 300 calories per hour so each bottle is 3 hours.
Art- time is definitely a factor, w/ fatigue weighing in as well- I also plan on trying to take a lot of pics, along w/ a few sit downs :) only going but what I've read, but I think I can make Roaring Springs pretty safely in ~ 5 hours- I should have a pretty good idea at that point both time wise and energy wise whether to push it up NK- looks like we have about 14 hours of daylight to work w/ add an hour or so depending on what time we leaveIf I don't go to NK, I'll probably take in Ribbon Falls as a short side tripMike
ONLY FIVE MO' DAYZ!!!!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHA! Weeeeeeeee!!!
I am getting excited for you guys and gal!!I look forward to the reports and accounts. I know pictures might be scarce but I encourage all of you to write about your experience when you get back, even if you think others covered it. I can only imagine that there are some doubts and concerns, even with all the training. Like someone said, one foot in front if the other...I think I speak for many of us here when I say that we support you, wish you the best and we are proud of all the work you have done already. Let us know if there us anything we can do, including pitching in a few bucks for airfare, even though you already purchased tickets!
Looks like the weather forecast may have taken a turn for the worse.Could be setting up for near perfect hypothermia weather.1. bring proper clothing2. bring plenty of food to keep the inner fires stoked, including maybe some emergency simple carbs.3. consider not running alone, especially the last half.
Great.Forecast I saw for Saturday is 47-21 degrees with rain which could potentially make the North Kaibab pretty dangerous if it's below freezing and getting icy.Potential hypothermia weather is right. If you can't keep moving in conditions like this, things will be ugly.
as far as ice on the trail,the final 1,500 ft (2 miles) up to NK trailhead is not exposed. but below that are some interesting drop offs.
Edited by asandh on 04/09/2012 09:03:07 MDT.
N. Kaibab will be at noon, ice conditions are less likely there I would think. i would be more concerned with any late evening ascents on the S. kaibab or BA where it will get cold fast in the evening and potentially ice over. Microspikes make alot of sense to me.
Like a perfect storm. That hotel or lodge is sounding kind of pleasant now. Who would have thought? Typically the problem is dealing with heat, not hypothermic conditions. What additional items will you guys be packing?This should be interesting. I'm really hoping the weather turns for the best.
my standard clothing for this :knit hat, possibly my balaclavalight weight glovesNorth Face Triumph pullover shellultra light rain pants (optional last minute decision)Patagonia nano puffMarmot mid weight under shirt (equal to Pat. Cap 3 but lighter weight)light weight poly inner shirt (long sleeve)Pat. cap 2 long johns (optional heavier pants if its windy)shorts over pantsstandard footwear, injinji socks, shoes
If these conditions hold I'll be additionally packing:Montbell Thermawrap JacketArcTeryx hardshell (forget which model, it's GTX Paclite, top and bottom)Rain MittsMicrospikesPatagonia Cap 1 LS top and bottoms
Craig, good call on the glove shells, adding that. I'll be bringing what I need to pretty much mirror Art and Craig with the addition of three other items, a mylar bivy, a small pack towel, and a 9-hour candle. Call me chicken.
the thing about the mylar bivy is ... I like to think I would make the smart decision and turn around early rather than try to gut it out and get myself into trouble.but one never knows.
Art, i agree, I too hope to be smart enough to know when a bail out is necessary. But for conditions like this i tend to include gear in case bailing out is not possible. Especially since in this case, bailing out means climbing back to 7000' with possible washed out, icy, exposed trail. That's just me though.
I plan on taking my normal hiking/running setup, long hiking pants, shorts, LS Cap 1, wind shirt, gloves, visor, warm hat and down jacket. I may also take rain jacket and pants but I would likely sweat more in them than any precip would wet it out.As far as microspikes, it would seem that the canyon rock is rather warm right now and that any snow that would be falling would be soft. Unless there is "soft ice" that microspikes could grip or consolidated and hard snow I can't see them helping.I will take a bit of extra food.
Greg agree about the spikes.and I tend to sweat a lot in a rain suit too, but for me its more to hold in warmth rather than keep me dry, sort of a travelling emergency bivy.
accuweather still showing cool (high 48), but they no longer show freezing rain- of course the show precip for Sun so that could easily be there on SatI'm bringing my tights, micropuff, OR Helium rain jacket-can't bring my spikes as I'm afraid TSA will snag them :( maybe I should bring my studded shoes ???if it's simply cool and cloudy, we'll be golden- if it's raining, less golden :)
Getting alot out of this exchange, good stuff.
So do you guys think I should leave my skorts behind? I've already had to nix my fishnet tanktop, not too happy about that.
I don't know, but I am kind of disappointed that I may not be wearing my fishnets (Salomon Exo Slab shorts and calf sleeves). With the variety of weather outlooks from "cloudy" all the way to "50% chance of showers" I am just going to do my best to be prepared. Gear options that I am bringing on account of the weather are Cap3 l/s, a rain shell, thermal tights, space blanket and a whistle.
Im ready for anything! As I live here, and have been running here the last year almost every day, both along the rim, as well as to the bottom of the canyon every month, even in winter, snow and ice included, I run no matter what the conditions. All winter I had to go through mud, sleet, water, freezing temps, 2ft deep snow, ice, and frozen puddles! And thats just my daily, after-work "easy" 6 mile abyss trail. So I have all types of running clothes for all the weathers we get here :) I got some extra beenies n gloves if any of you forget yours.I havent offered ya guys any advice, cause ya seem to have a handle on it...just be prepared for anything , it looks like you all will be. BTW, even in winter, i never needed micro-spikes, my YakTrak pros worked fine, ok, see ya friday
Edited by everyday on 04/09/2012 18:24:00 MDT.
After some changes in my family's plan to do a road trip from Colorado, I'm now looking to fly into PHX solo on Friday. Is anyone else flying into the airport that day with spare room in their car? I will be flying standby, arriving either at 10am or 1130am. Another option is that I could take bus/light rail combinations to exit the airport to get to a more convenient location to be picked up. This could get me away from the airport and potentially closer to an interstate from noon to 1:00. I'm pretty sure that it goes without sayin' that I'm more than willing to make a gas pitch. Any takers?
Edited by vaporjourney on 04/09/2012 22:03:47 MDT.
I'm out packing and geeking on gear for this thing....So here's my current gear thinking for the crappy conditions, might change depending on what we see on Saturday:Worn:Synthetic TRab BoreasAsics shortsPatagonia Cap1 tightssocksInov-8 Roclite 295 (tend to be better for sloppy conditions than my MT110s)Timex IronmanArcTeryx Phaser Toque beanieHard Goods Carried:Black Diamond BBEE pack (loving this sleek little guy!)First Aid / leukotape / AM pre-mixed drops in mini dropperPetzl Zipka +2Platypus 2L (though I'll only carry 1L in it so it stays flatter in the pack)2x 24oz handheld bottlesKahtoola MicrospikesHeat Sheets emergency blanketSoft Goods Carried:ArcTeryx hardshell, top and bottom (I forget the model...Alpha Gamma AR super-duper something...it's GTX Paclite, pretty lightweight for a hardshell)Montbell Thermawrap jacketliner gloves w/ homemade silnylon rain mittsEverything Packed:Shell pants are folded behind the bladder, everything else in stuffsacks. I'm amazed it all fits so well. This pack has great proportions and rides well loaded. STill plenty of room for Perpetuem, Snickers, and gels.Dog will be pulling me in a custom cuben harness system. She gives me a ~2 min/mile advantage. Adan has seen it at work; 14 pounds but she thinks she's a sled dog.
Dude, I got my eyes on your gears right now. Feeling totally inadequate, I'm gonna look like a poser compared to this. Looking good. Are the pant shells waterproof or not totally? Will you be bringing the seal skins or did those not make the cut after our Baldy wet camp last week? If I end up having to pack a puffy, driducks and spikes then I may have to switch to the Golite Ion for more space. Not ideal but what the hell, rookies gotta look like rookies for a while.Let's get some.
heres a link to some of my pics from other runs down there. Page 2 has cloudy-pics too, that may be how it is this weekend...who knows. Anyway, just thought id share ta keep ya guys psyched up! Its sooo pretty here, you guys are gonna have a blast no matter the weatherhttp://sangabrielmnts.myfreeforum.org/ftopic4211-0-asc-0.php
Craig- looks good :) I'm going to load up everything for a test this evening, good chance I'll be moving up to my Talon 11 it's only 6 oz heavier than the 5.5 (22 vs 16 oz), but hold bulky stuff better (ie nanopuff)- also has belt pockets which are handy.Mike
Eric- try pm'ing David- he's arriving Friday morning and renting a carMike
Thanks for sharing the photos of your Rim/Canyon runs Torrey. You're spoiled! I can't wait to get up there and take it all in- rain, snow, sleet, or shine. I still need to get my gear together, when I do I'll post up a proper list. I don't own any shell pants and I'm not 100% sure I'm going to bring a puffy; probably going to just pack a heavier weight midlayer (Cap 2 or 3) and keep moving. I suppose the weather will dictate that decision as always.
Craiggear looks good, although micro spikes look a bit heavy.I'll probably go with my bright yellow Bbee, hard to get lost.is that a weiner dog ? I have two at home.Eugenemy Cap 3 shirt = 214g , Nano Puff = 274gno brainer which one I'll bring.
Yes, I have a nanopuff Art (parka), it's a bit of sauna suit when worn while non stationary, even light hiking. I take it you have the np pullover. Do you plan to stop much?I've been going back and forth between bringing my UD Wasp vest or my Arcteryx Aerios 7 pack, loaded all my stuff and I like the way my junk packs in the Aerios instead. Originally planned to take two bottles inside my pack, but will load up a nalgene cantene 1L platy style container instead.
I have the pullover, no hood, nano puff to keep it as light as possible.I will not run with it on generally. will put on my Triumph shell first.But 3 years ago, I remember the last 6 miles back up to the south rim being very cold. between the night time, gaining altitude, and being very tired and depleted, something warm was quite welcome.my triumph shell combined with my nano puff is my version of an emergency bivy. something you can put on to keep hypothermia away and still keep moving.Re. stops ... they will be short and few. basically just at water refills, and maybe 5 minutes at the north rim.
Edited by asandh on 04/10/2012 16:10:24 MDT.
this was so much easier when it said 65 and sunny! :)
Are many of you planning on bringing cameras to take photos/videos along the way? I had planned on bringing my digital camera, but with the wet weather it may just turn out to be a lot of extra mass to haul around.
Edited by hewinsd on 04/10/2012 17:00:17 MDT.
you mean BPL hasn't hired a film team in a helicopter to shoot this thing ?
Edited by asandh on 04/10/2012 17:17:49 MDT.
I think they're coming, but for a different group running the canyon...
I will have my trusty iphone. It survived the PCT (but not one of foster dogs that ate it.) and I will be taking as many pictures/videos as I can. Even though we may be a few different groups we all should meet and pass north of the river. I hope to get some pictures of a whole line of runners/hikers. It's getting close!
I will have my p&s on me. Art, the helicopter supported filmcrew apparently doesn't fly during inclement weather, and the mule train supported film crew moves too slow.
You should get David Brashears and the IMAX film crew.--B.G.--
Better be a film crew, I didn't buy all this Arc'Teryx for nothing.
or Patagucci either!
their loss if no film crew.there should be epic suffering.Reason #1 to bring that warm puffy jacket :Saturday night temps forecastSouth Rim 26*North Rim 22*don't want to be caught after dark in that without something warm.
NOAA is now projecting a 70% chance of 3-5 inches of snow on the North Rim. Sounds like it will be beautiful, albeit cold and wet down under the rim..??? My excitement level just got a bit higher. Now I have to hope that flights open up a little bit from Salt Lake City to PHX to allow me to squeeze in on my standby flights...Has anyone read about, or considered, stashing gear under the bridge at the river? It seems like most of the layers that we would need would be for descending from and ascending back to the South Rim. I'm thinking things like tights and some gels won't be needed until it starts to get dark again, so it would be nice to free up some space in the pack as well as lighten the load. I'm not sure if critters are a problem, but I'm pretty sure that I've read of Krupicka and at least one other person stashing food under there. I'm hoping to run with my UD Wasp, although it will be stuffed to the gills and a junk show. My gear list just grew:Head to toe:-Headsweats Visor-Buff-Fleece beanie-Synthetic tee-Arm warmers-Patagonia Houdini-Marmot Super Mica rainjacket-Black Diamond midweight gloves-OR Rain Mitts-Synthetic boxers-Capilene 1 bottoms (may bring Pearl Izumi tights instead, but they are heavier and not as warm when wet)-Shorts-Golite Reed wind pants in the pack-Garbage bag skirt-Drymax socks (spares in the pack if/when rain stops)-Dirty Girl Gaiters-La Sportiva Vertical K shoes-Yak Trax Pro?? (Microspikes will be overkill. Hardpacked snow is no big deal, but dust on crust is...)This huge list is what got me thinking about lightening and slimming down the load. 4 days to go gents!
Edited by vaporjourney on 04/10/2012 21:17:43 MDT.
Ericthere's a path in "Game Theory" that I tend to live by called "mini max". it basically refers to planning for and avoiding a worst case scenario.I never stash gear along a run that I may need later. Worst case its not there when you return. You guys can stash ... I will carry.p.s.microspikes are probably heaviest part of your load and you won't be using them much. maybe just drop them and tippy toe thru the short snow section at both rims.
Edited by asandh on 04/11/2012 07:45:48 MDT.
if the forecast holds (still hoping it might change for the better :) ) this will be my "microspike" substitute, I ran in these all fall/winter/spring and they fared pretty well in the snow/icepacked some stuff last night and the Talon 5.5 is now out and the 11 is in, I added a puffy, rain jacket, r1 bavaclava, rain mittsI'm bringing shorts and a short sleeve cap 1, but if the forecast holds they'll stay in my suitcase- I'm bringing both tights and r1 pants, if it's really cold I'm going w/ the r1's- not as windproof as the tights but do better in the cold and wet, if the film crew is there I'll probably go w/ the tights regardless :)
I planned on stashing micro spikes near the tonto trail junction somewhere. At least I would have them for the return. Not reaching north rim because of ice is a bummer, but if i get delayed coming back and have to negotiate the ice, cold, dark and exhaustion without micro spikes. Seems dicey. I don't know, if snow is fairly certain at both rims I'll just carry. My poorly planned cold weather clothing is probably a better place to try and save weight. Well that and the fat ass IMAX camera man I now have to carry.
Due to the weather forecast Moma has vetoed camping out. (Probably best if I ever want her to join me on another trip!) I booked a room at the Holiday Inn just outside the Park but I still have campsite 160 booked and ready for use by whoever needs it.So my plan is to fly into Phoenix Thursday and make it up to Flagstaff Thursday night. We will be at the Park about noon on Friday.It's getting real close, at least we shouldn't have to worry about overheating.
With snow on both rims possibly accumulating from Friday on, I'll carry the spikes just in case. I'm comfortable with the full weight of my kit...I don't believe the extra weight of spikes (vs. having peace of mind) is going to affect me in any appreciable way (I'm not trying to set a record) so I'm not worried about carrying vs. stashing anything.Hope you fellow campers are ready for the icebox.Adan and I will have a 6 man tent. I'll also be bringing a 12' Kelty tarp with poles for a cooking area. If the skies do let loose, hopefully it's snow and not cold rain so we can at least chill and keep a good fire going. That, or a 20+ person hotel bar hostile takeover might be fun....
Edited by xnomanx on 04/11/2012 08:38:25 MDT.
Wednesday morning forecast for Saturday "down in the canyon",where most of the run will take place.Saturday: Showers likely, mainly before 11am. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 61. Chance of precipitation is 60%.We can do this.
"Saturday: Showers likely, mainly before 11am. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 61. Chance of precipitation is 60%.We can do this." Given the profile of the run, this could be close to ideal running temperatures for most of the mileage, 40-60 degrees. Even if there is a few inches of snow on the rims it is going to be a great adventure.
Craig what campsite are you ?
Edited by asandh on 04/12/2012 08:16:33 MDT.
Man....cramming all this stuff into my little Nathan pack is going to be tough. I'm going to spend tonight getting it dialed and likely adding a few bungees on the outside to add some capacity to it.I'm bringing a ton of gear with me just to have good options.....but I'll most likely be carrying:NF Triumph pulloverGolite Reed pantsR1 hoody or NanoPuffEmergency blanketFirestarting stufftiny knifeLOADS of foodI'm excited...and a tad nervous.In other news.....Rae Lakes Loop. June 16. Put it on your calendar.
Preparation is done. The time is here. The weather is making this thing even more uncertain, more exciting. The level of stoke is all-time. Waiting is unbearable.
Several years ago I was there on a hike in April and our last day was rainy. At the bottom sometimes the precipitation can evaporate to not much while it is steadily raining on the way up and that may turn to snow towards the top. That is what happened to us from hiking the bottom to top (30's and snowing fairly heavy). I got cold at the top while waiting for my friends and I was soaked from pushing too hard and wearing a silnylon top ; ). I had to keep moving and head for my car, push off at least 6 inches of snow and get inside.Have a great trip!
Mike: have you ever used screw shoes on dry ground? In my experience, they are phenomenal on snow/ice, but fall out after running an hour so on dry/rocky ground. Perhaps the rubber in your outsole holds better than my Inov8s, or perhaps you use epoxy, but my experience is that they were completely annoying and fall out on dry ground.I just got back from REI, where I picked up a BD Bbee pack as well as Yaktrax Pro's. I'm not positive if I'll use either of these, but I want options for the extremely variable conditions.
my stripped down Bbee only weighs 3 oz more than my stripped down Nathan HPL 20,and has over twice the room.and as slow as I run it does not bounce around much.
Im ready too! Just waitin on you fools ta get here. BTW, i found some awesome new brownies at the market, 400-420 calories per tiny brownie! I got 4 for me! Ill show ya where they be at the market when you guys get here if you want some extra calories ina tiny package. They arnt healthy workout brownies, theyre real, so they actually taste good! (i normally pass on "power-bar" and gels type things as they taste like ca-ca. I figure, if im already torturing myself on 30+ mile runs, why eat gross food on top of it all, thats just adding insult to injury, IMO) Anyway, im just talkin to kill time. ....see ya guys soon. :)
Torrey: Are those brownies $17 a pop with Grand Canyon prices? I'm all for not relying solely on gels...
Only 2 dolla' and 15 cents per brownie! :)
just about packed.5.50 lb - max starting pack weight, but probably less, I'll be wearing some of it.includes :1.90 lb - extra clothing (full shell, nano, midweight LS, knit hat, gloves)0.66 lb - pack, BD Bbee0.74 lb - misl. (headlamp, spare bottle, first aid, salt pills, Nuun, etc.)2.20 lb - food, 4,500 calories total perpetuem - 3,600 calories 16 vanilla oreo cookies - 900 caloriesno micro spikes for me.still trying to decide about a camera
Art: bring the cam and just waterproof it! I'm bringing a cheapo Canon point and shoot instead of my LX3, but I want SOME decent shots from that day. Torey: Am I correct in assuming that when it rains in the canyon, the rain is pretty short lived? I'm pretty sure I've never seen a full day of drizzle or solid rain in all of my time spent in AZ/NM...
Eric- I've had really good luck w/ mine, put them in late October and haven't had a single one pull out- while a fair amount of running was ice/snow, more of it was on rock/gravel/mud. It could be a function of the material of the sole????? I'm using 1/2" screws on mine.Those brownies sound good :)Mike
@ ERIC-ya, it usually just rains a few minutes to half an hour and moves on. I was just looking at WeatherUnderground, and it still says chance of rain, but for hourly on Saturday it says---0600 Fog and 10% chance of precipitation, 01100 Clouds and 10% chance of rain, 1400 20% chance of rain, 1800 back to 10% chance....So, hopefully thatll mean maybe light showers. And dont forget, like Art said--were not gonna be at either rim for long, once youre down, itll just be cooler with little chance of the rain gettin to us along the bottom.
I should have posted this 2-3 days ago, but have been rushing around like crazy for work and coaching (my team made State and then came in first, so I'm prep'ing for Nationals).DON'T trim your toenails the night before. Do it several days in advance, ideally a week. So the newly exposed skin toughens up a bit. At this point, do only very minor trimming. And don't be afraid to use an emory board or your wife's nail buffing board. You want to avoid have sharp corners against any other toe.See you guys soon.On Food: Mike and I are planning on a Trader Joe's run in PHX Friday morning for wraps, deli sandwichs and other yuppie groceries. I'll look for brownies. And beer.I hear from the hippie dog mushers that there's a particular brownie recipe that really helps keep your appetite up. Something about "the munchies"? -grin-
speaking of foot care, if the conditions are indeed very wet- I think I'll throw in my Hydropel, have had really good luck using it hiking in wet conditions, should work for running as well^ I think I've heard of the brownies before :)
I have no clue what 99% of this gear is you guys are talking about! lol...Im gonna just wear some clothes...and if its cold, i'll wear more clothes, and ima bring my pack and some bottles. ...Pfff..you rich people- with your fancy packs, space gel thingys and clothing with unpronounceable names. :) btw, my toenails are always run-ready! And PINK! ha (i had to google "nano-puff" ...had no clue..thought maybe you were bringing teeny tiny marshmallows)
Edited by everyday on 04/11/2012 18:17:14 MDT.
Teeny tiny marshmallows?Yeah, Im bringing those too.
Save some of them teeny tiny marshmallows for me too! and some of them brownies too Dave! Oh and mike, maybe i can get a bit of the hydropel from you, ive been wanting to try some of that stuff.
"I have no clue what 99% of this gear is you guys are talking about!"Torrey,You have no idea what you have yourself into with this bunch. By the time they are done with your gear you will be missing your shoe tongue and shoestrings, and that's just off your shoes. Looking forward to meeting you.
Bah! now i hafta google hydropel! Looking forward to meeting all you too! I have to work tomorrow, but i have Friday-Saturday-Sunday off
Edited by everyday on 04/11/2012 19:07:42 MDT.
Just thought it might be a good idea before everyone leaves tomorrow/Friday.If you can get me your email and cell# I'll send a list out to people tonight/tomorrow morning.Email me info at craigwisner at yahoo dot com
Edited by xnomanx on 04/11/2012 19:51:09 MDT.
sent :) assuming there was a .com at the end of yahoo?Mike
I'd like my wife's cell number on that list, I'll send it.
Everyone going on this awesome run....have fun and be safe. I hope the weather works out for ya'll!I've been running nearly everyday since I read about this trip. I hope to be in shape by the next one!
Go Get Em Guys.Here's to an amazing EPIC!!!~!
for those of you who have not left town yet ...Saturday's weather forecast has deteriorated slightly (as of Thursday morning).biggest change is probably an increased forecast for some wind along with that precip.Saturday will be the heart of the storm ... yahhooo.
well, itll at least keep it interesting! We wouldnt want this to be easy or anything now would we!? lol
Point Forecast: Grand Canyon Village AZ36.05°N 112.14°W (Elev. 6803 ft)Tonight: Snow showers. Low around 27. Breezy, with a south southwest wind between 15 and 24 mph, with gusts as high as 38 mph. Chance of precipitation is 90%. New snow accumulation of 2 to 4 inches possible.Saturday: Snow showers likely. Cloudy, with a high near 37. West southwest wind between 15 and 21 mph, with gusts as high as 31 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New snow accumulation of 1 to 3 inches possible.Saturday Night: A 40 percent chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 23. West southwest wind between 9 and 18 mph, with gusts as high as 28 mph. New snow accumulation of less than one inch possible.Sunday: A 20 percent chance of snow showers. Partly sunny, with a high near 47. West northwest wind between 7 and 11 mph.
sunny and warm here :) when we get to S Kaibab, David won't even know he left Alasaka!
Good luck to all. Have fun and be safe.
Spring weather at the GC is unpredictable. We were there mid April about 5 years ago and it was upper 20s on the rim and snowing little snow balls that changed to sleet and then to rain as we went down. At Indian Gardens it was probably 55-60F and when we got to Phatom Ranch I'd say it was 75F and sunny. Just goes to show you the inner canyon weather is completely different than the rim. Best of Luck to everyone on the R2R2R.
Edited by jimmyjam on 04/13/2012 14:02:04 MDT.
Good luck you guys and gals! we all await your pics and trip reports. Jake
Everyone is safe despite some wild adverse weather conditions that hammered all the runners yesterday, particularly on the return ascent up S. Kaibab . Im laying in our tent now along the S. Rim still soaking in how miserable and unbelievably fun this experience was. Listening to Craig (who is a big dude) describe how he and Torrey had to drop down on all fours in 50-60mph wind totally exposed with blowing snow in frigid temps along Skeleton Point gives you some idea how ridiculous the weather turned out. After we nervously waited for hours for the last crossers to ascend yesterday evening we converged for some beer and company as a group and exchanged our experiences on the day. Some great people turned out for this and im glad to have shared it with them.Now to eat, craigs stirring out by the stove. Im sure others will chime in a day or two.
Fantastic, I was waiting on hearing from you guys! Cant wait to hear more.
Congratulations to all who made this trip! This has been an inspiring thread and I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures.
I dont want to rewrite all this here, so heres the link to my write up about our r2r2r, Im sure everyone has there own unique story! cant wait to see when others postheres the link http://sangabrielmnts.myfreeforum.org/R2R2R_aka_holy_crap_why_are_we_doing_this_ina_snowstorm__about4586.html
Edited by everyday on 04/15/2012 14:20:06 MDT.
Tried the link. No page found.R2R2R_aka_holy_crap_why_are_we_doing%0A_this_ina%0A_snowstorm__about4586.htmlpage not found
Edited by kthompson on 04/15/2012 18:02:54 MDT.
Um, i dunno, i highlighted it just now to check and then clicked the "go to" option n it went right to it...and the COPY n paste option worked right now too, you sure u highlighted the whole thing? You can also just search for San gabriel mountain discussion forum, and its in Trip Reports , you dont have to be a member to read their stuff :)
Edited by everyday on 04/15/2012 14:40:21 MDT.
Nice report and pictures of the BPL R2R2R group run, thanks Torrey.
Edited by thomdarrah on 04/15/2012 14:41:36 MDT.
Torrey's trip report/pictureshttp://tinyurl.com/8y4b98h
Edited by jshann on 04/15/2012 15:53:38 MDT.
When do we get the patented Eugenius trip report, that is so good it makes most of us never post a trip report?
Wow, torrey! Sounds like it was a really intense run. Nicely done.
Thank you John for making that link more manageable! I know a few of the other guys will be posting reports when they get home, mine's only up so fast 'cause I live here, i never left home, just spent the day in my backyard :)
Looked absolutely miserable. Great report! Thanks for sharing.
Great report Torrey. Full value conditions for sure.
"I dont want to rewrite all this here, so heres the link to my write up about our r2r2r, Im sure everyone has there own unique story! cant wait to see when others post"Great report, Torrey. Sounds like a real epic, and it's good to know everyone finished safely.You guys are the real deal.
I don't know about ya'll.....but I'm still grinning and reliving some fun times.The conditions were definitely challenging/demanding and I think everyone did a great job of dealing with all that came along with it. I was really, really impressed with the way that everyone took care of each other/made sure everyone was all right. All in all.....a fantastic day with great people. I wish we would have had more time to hang out and get to know each other.Huge thanks to Craig for making the mugs!PS. Greg is the fastest "hiker" I've ever seen.
Edited by donkey on 04/15/2012 17:42:58 MDT.
Great write up about a real adventure. Good for you Torrey. Sounds like you had some great company as well. Glad everyone is ok and hopefully no one will hurt too much from this. Thanks for the report!
Very impressive what the nine of you did. I read Torrey's report. 41 miles with all that up and down, and then snow. One of the most brutal--if stunningly beautiful-- day trips I've ever seen. Thanks for sharing.
Every so often I believe you have to push yourself outside your comfort zone in order to expand your mental limits. So when the opportunity presented itself to trail run the Grand Canyon it was an obvious next crusade. But I was a fairly competent fast hiker (not world class, maybe just county or large township class) not a trail runner. So the conversion from hiker to trail runner began. During my training I built up to 40 miles with more elevation gain than R2R2R so I thought myself ready.The R2R2R trip had a special significance to me. Twenty years ago I walked from the South rim to the River and back on the Bright Angel Trail. In spite of being in decent shape I couldn't get out of bed the next day, I was trashed. So could my much older body more than double what trashed the twenty some year old version of me? I am in denial that I'm getting older and this event would continue to perpetuate this fantasy.Tourist ViewMy wife and I arrive at the Grand Canyon on Friday morning. After a quick tourist round we waited in the campground as the motley crew of BPL'ers slowly assembled. It was great to meet some of folks that I internet knew for a couple of years. You could feel the anticipation in the air. The weather was forecasted to deteriorate and I thought there was half a chance that there would be a push to leave early while the weather was still good. A group went out to the S. Kaibab trailhead and read the signs declaring death and destruction for those that do anything but a couple of miles into the canyon. One sign declared that a Rim to River trip is an overnight trip. They didn't say anything about our little adventure but it's safe to say that the Park wouldn't be supportive.Where was our run/hike?Visitors at CampSaturday morning came quickly. I actually woke up on my own at 3:50am since my body was still on Eastern Time. We drove through the fresh accumulating snow to the trailhead and arrived at the agreed upon time, 4:30am. But none of the group had yet arrived. Two female runners took off for their R2R2R and I waited. Soon Brian and Josh arrived and we ended up leaving at 5am. For the first few miles there was snow on the trail and at times it was nearly whiteout conditions in the narrow beam of my headlamp. Heading Down South RimColorado RiverBrian and Josh before they became a diappearing flashWe hit Phantom ranch in a bit over 1:30 but it soon became obvious that Brian and Josh were much stronger runners than I. They ran the modest elevation gain of the first 10 miles up to the North Rim while I fell back to fast hiking; it seemed that I had already blown out my quads and calves on the descent off the South Rim. The weather at the Canyon bottom was perfect but you could see the clouds building on the North Rim and a clear band of snow at the top. Bright Angel DrainageJust past Roaring Springs the sleet started followed by snow. The trail was cover with a couple of inches of snow increasing to about six at the top. The snow, combined with the steep ascent and elevation slowed my progress down. But I hit the North Rim at exactly 11:00am, six hours into the trip. At that point I decide that I would attempt to hit a 12 hour finish. So down I went off the North rim. I soon passed the rest of our group, the two females that started earlier and another large group from Salt Lack City. Additionally there were several backpackers that were going from Cottonwood Camp up to the North Rim and back. The entire mass of R2R2R humanity was spread on the final switch backs above the tunnel. Snowy North Rim ViewThe trip down to Roaring Springs was uneventful. The trail was mucky, the wind gusting and intermittent snow and sleet would hit. I took my first break, 20 minutes, at mile 27, refueling and taking my traditional triple shot of caffeine, electrolytes and Vitamin I. I hit Phantom Ranch slightly ahead of schedule and quickly shot up the inner south wall. That's when things became interesting. The wind picked up, the snow began and the trail went from mule induced muck to snow. But a much bigger problem loomed. My legs were shot, specifically my quads and calves and my knees were screaming. I looked back to see when Eugene would catch me. (I was convinced that everyone else was fresh and prepared and it was only me that pushed too hard – too early.) But I couldn't see anybody else on trail in either direction and I could see several miles of trail. It was a bit lonely on that ridge but I was still on track for a 12 hour finish I slowly climbed out of the canyon and my 12 hour goal blew away with the snow. It took me a full 1:30 to do the last 3.5 miles but I was just happy to be safely up on the rim. After a long hot shower I returned to the trailhead and Eugene and Adan had just come over the top. But we were all worried because there were still 6 of our group remaining in the increasingly crappy weather. A couple of hours later, Craig and Torrey made it out. That left a group of three. Finally at about 10pm word came back that they came out the Bright Angel Trailhead. There was an audible sigh of relief. The group made it to the local pizza place and swapped war stories. The stress of the day was clearly visible on the group's faces. We also met all of the other R2R2R runners that day. It was a great evening.SpentI am very sore from this runner in spite of all training that I completed. I believe for most of us, there is no training that could keep the pain at bay. The long ascents and especially the descents cause your legs to tire very quickly because there is no break. I was happy with my overall pace of the day but I was humbled by Brian and Josh. It was clear that I needed a lot more experience before I could consider myself a trailrunner. But back to the original goal…. I am able to move today, sometimes a bit of a hobble but still motion. So I can continue to be in denial that I'm aging. In fact if the same improvement can be made from 46-66 that happened between 26-46 then maybe there will be a triple crossing in my future. Or maybe a triple ascent of all three corridor trails, hmmmm. I can only continue to believe.
Edited by gg-man on 04/21/2012 08:39:58 MDT.
My legs are good! the muscle on the front of my thighs are a lil bit sore, but thats it. Maybe cause theyre used ta going up Kaibab all the time? Or cause i was slower/didnt push as hard maybe. I dunno, im good to go back to work today though, and out for a short run after. It was really nice meeting you Greg, 'n everyone else! Lotsa fun! Ima go across and back again ina couple weeks (sometime between may 5th n 10th ) in normal weather to see how i do when not frozen!
The greatest bunch of guys, and girl, I would want to share an adventure with.Great job everyone.as you can see in the photos below, there was no snow when we went to bed that night thinking the weather warnings were a false alarm.the storm came while we slept, and continued the entire day of the adventure.here is most of the group in a strategy meeting the night before.
Edited by asandh on 04/16/2012 08:40:25 MDT.
I took three flights, got to PHX, picked up Mike, and drove to GCNP. Mike had been checking the weather and it sounded ominous. Alaska had had such a cold and snowy winter, that I hadn't gotten in enough training and I knew it. Rim to river and back? Sure! But I wasn't sure how more than that would be reasonable. We met Torrey who had very kindly scored us a half-price room and went to the campground to meet the rest of the crew. We talked timing and weather, chatted about gear, sipped our beers and watched the elk wander thru camp. I woke before my alarm and there was new snow on the ground. I've done a lot of canyon trips and it just seemed bizarre to not be in shorts. At 5 am, it was still coming down and blowing and everyone wanted to get started and down into better conditions. Mike and Torrey took off running after 15 minutes and I was on my own. I felt okay at the river but not perfect so I knew I wasn't going all the way. Another 7 miles and I'd reached about half baked and turned around. I'd never been to Ribbon Falls so I made that detour. There's a mossy, misty, glen around the bottom of the falls that reminded me of the base of a very isolated falls in a remote side canyon of the Colorado where we'd scattered our son Wesley's ashes (named after the ethnographer and original river runner). Going back to Phantom was fine, a bought a few lemonades at the Canteen and chatted with rafters on a 23-day private trip. Going up was slow - it wasn't a problem to keep moving, but this was MUCH more excretion in a day than I've got under my belt before my hiking season has even started. (editted to add the following - my posting got interupted by, "Airplane doors are closing, please turn off your electronics")The snow returned halfway up and just got heavier and windier. The A-Team passed me and I was amazed my rental car was already running - Mike had gone past me when I detoured to Ribbon Falls so he'd been warming in the rental car for 45 minutes. I found out the last shuttle bus would leave at 8:20 and absolutely didn't want to leave anyone without a warm car to jump in. When our (hopefully) last South Kaibab hikers arrived, attention shifted to the Bright Angel and Mike and I drove over to check it out. We spotted John just as we got there and Art and Martin were only 20 minutes behind him.It seemed the most helpful thing we could do then was make phone calls to reassure everyone and then order pizza. I and some hiking companions got moderately hypothermic a few times 30 years ago and I'm really conscious about it now. Most of the runners coming in were about 94F. A few were 92-93F, their exertion having surpressed the shivering. Guys were taking 45 to 90 minutes to get mostly warmed up again. So I offered the hot shower in our hotel room (rather than jumping naked into their sleeping bag with them).It was a great bunch of guys and gal, I was really impressed by the athletism of the runners, their pain tolerance, and how the group came together and looked out for each other. It was a heck of a kick-off to my hiking season and great motivation to be better conditioned for my next death march.
Edited by DavidinKenai on 04/16/2012 22:06:29 MDT.
Great reports, what an amazing and *inspiring* adventure!
Thanks for the pictures and stories. I can hardly wait to hear more!
Anyone find a red Patagonia beanie? Mine is MIA.Thanks!BB
"Going up was slow - it wasn't a problem to keep moving, but this was MUCH more excretion in a day than I've got under my belt before my hiking season has even started."David, excretion could be the right word for a trip that difficult...lol (kidding you)
I don't know, but I think this might be the most impressive "trip report" I have seen on BPL. I have thoroughly enjoyed all the posts involving this epic adventure, the preparation, the logistics, and the actual hike. I'm in such admiration for all of you that participated, and I look forward to reading everyone's follow-up posts. Congratulations to each and every one of you, regardless of how things went for you individually. To me, just to try such a noble day merits great respect, especially with that weather.
John V. and I were the only ones who opted for the 5 mile longer Bright Angel version of the RRR. So at the end of the day I guess it made sense that we were the last ones to return to the South Rim.As we headed down at 5am, the newly fallen snow made the trail sloppy due to the barely freezing temps.30 minutes down we caught up to a group of 8 ultra runners from Utah who were also attempting the RRR, and we played tag with them most of the day. 4 of them were slightly under dressed (shorts) and wisely decided to turn around about 2/3 of the way up the North Kaibab.As for our guys, as John and I hit the river, Eugene, who had come down South Kaibab, came running up to us. He had passed by his bridge to cross the river, and I think maybe he had decided 42 miles was not enough and wanted to get in a few more before heading up to the North Rim. Anyway when he met us, he turned around and took off like a lightning bolt back to the bridge.We met David at Phantom Ranch, and eventually linked up with Adan up until Cottonwood where we met Mike. At that point John and I continued and I think Mike and Adan decided to make it a more leisurely day.Along the way we met Dan H. who had injured his knee and wisely decided to turn back. It will be there next time.The conditions were never good, but at least the bottom of the canyon was not freezing.As we approched the North Rim the cold set in, the wind picked up, we were trudging thru 6 inches of new snow ... yes it was great.Part way up the North Kaibab we met Marty (Eugene's father in law) and decided to stay together, for the remainder of our trip, to keep an eye on one another during challenging conditions.As we got higher, Brian and Josh came blazing down the trail. A while later we met Greg in his power walking glory, laughing at the storm. Eventually, Craig, Torrey, and Eugene, and then we were at the north rim, snow picking up, wind picking up, "make this quick and get out of here" were our only thoughts.John raced down ahead of Marty and I because he was getting chilled and needed warmer weather ASAP. We met him down at the balmy Pump House resort, and all continued on again.We reached Phantom Ranch at 4:55pm and a dozen people were all milling around outside the general store ... for what ? and then the magic door opened, delicious odors wafted out and a woman began reciting the evening menu (wine included) ... but not for us.As we left Phantom, I told John the next 10 miles up Bright Angel would probably take 4-4.5 hours. He thought I was joking. We were ultra runners, and while not fast, never go that slow. He soon discovered it wasn't a joke. The relentless up hill, the drizzle which turned to wet snow, the giant puddles on every step, the mud that sucked your foot to the trail and would not let you lift it.But eventually we made it to the rim, and a quick 200 yd hike got us to the warm cafeteria before closing.Marty did great, John did great but was near hypothermic and as David started to offer his hotel room floor to us John blurted out an emphatic YES before David could even finsh his sentence (thanks David and Mike for the warm floor).A great adventure ... and wonderful coffee (beer) mugs to prove it.and yes, George Mathews was with us all, thanks to the nice remembrance buttons Eugene had made for us to carry.
Edited by asandh on 04/17/2012 11:13:07 MDT.
A good days work.Craig and I arrived at the South Rim Thursday night and slept under a tarp in the woods nearby. Friday was spent around the fire, eating and drinking a bit more beer than I planned, but this was a fun group to chill with and we had a good time planning our attack on the canyon.Going into this I overdid it on the training and suffered a bout of ITBS which affected my training big time, especially in the 6 weeks just prior to the run. I decided to stay on it and at least see if I could muster a decent run. The weekend before, I managed a slow 8 mile run before my knee flared up and left me with a long limp back. Not at all promising, but I kept my head in the game for better or worse. Glad I did.I guess if I had a plan, it was to go slow and try to avoid hurting my knee too bad until I was in the vicinity of the North Rim. Then, i would have no choice but to limp back and complete the run. I started with Eugene, Craig and Dan and immediately they disappeared into the dark abyss as I fell back into an easy shuffle. By the time i reached the river my knee was front and center in my mind and I struggled to keep a good pace from that point on. The pain was manageable though and I eased into a good jog encountering Mike, Art and his buddy John. The four of us worked on the middle section together for a while. This really helped me out, as I could tell that in spite of my increasing knee pain, I was able keep up with them reasonably well and soon Mike and I were watering up at the pumphouse near Roaring Springs with Art and John well ahead of us and moving at an impressive pace. Mike was going to turn around at Roaring Springs. He was already doubling the longest run he had ever done before, phenomenal work man. I heard that and I was inspired to push on. I filled up my bottles and began limping up to the North Rim. This was not to be however. My knee started to hurt bad right away and with the North Rim just 3 or 4 miles above me, I stopped and wrapped my knee, took some Ibuprofen and waited for the pain to subside which turned out to be a mistake as it stiffened and left me hardly able to walk. So i started the long limp back from there. I could just about see up to the North Rim, it looked like a mess up there and I knew my crew was in for a good one! On my way back I was able to catch a cool video of Brian and Josh charging down the trail, they were moving! Awesome! This lifted my spirits alot and helped me muster the effort to get out of there. I expected to see the whole group come barreling over me any minute but I did not see anybody until the river where Eugene caught up to me looking strong. I was moving slow and urged him to go on up but he refused, he wanted to stick with me and ensure I made it out okay. I appreciated that big time. Wanting not to slow Eugene down too bad, I stepped up best I could and we made a pretty good climb together reaching the rim just as darkness fell. The whole day was windy and rainy, but the last few hours were the icing on the cake with wind-driven snow and gusts to 40mph. Thanks Eugene, you had my back!Nobody felt like celebrating, however, as a good part of our crew was still out there. Conditions worsened considerably as night came on and after some nervous waiting on the rim in some pretty hellish conditions, I spotted Craig's light way down in the hole. Him and Torrey were moving up slow but we were glad to see them. Craig also was hit with knee pain and was limping back, so he did the entire thing with knee pain, insane!! Marty, Art and John appeared a bit later as well and everybody breathed a big sigh of relief. Still smiling thinking about this one. This was a huge learning experience for me and solidified my love for running even more. On the last climb up I swore I would never do this again. After some pizza and a huge beer, I started contemplating the next one. Thanks to Craig for the mugs, Rob for all the hospitality and a warm cup of coffee, everybody, yall are alright in my book.
Edited by Lopez on 04/18/2012 17:58:56 MDT.
Great photos Adan!
It was great meeting, camping and running with you all on Saturday! As those present know, I managed to get jammed up hopping onto a small bridge heading out of the box canyon and from there started having sharp isolated pain in the medial tendon behind my knee - I'll blame my lack of focus on the beautiful scenery winding up N. Kaibab. I ran on, but the pain stayed with me for several more miles. With no aid stations ahead, and storms on both rims, I decided that I didn't want to have to limp back across the canyon. I got water and ran down N. Kaibab, tanked up again at Phantom, and focused on keeping my legs moving up SK through the rain, hail, snow and wind. I am still in awe of the enormity of the canyon and roar of the Colorado (that Eugene and I managed to cross 3 times on the day - figure that out...) - I had better pay attention to my footing until that wanes. Overall what sticks with me both about this great day and got to see practically all 4 seasons and several biomes in a matter of roughly 30 miles that I am calling my 'Grand Canyon Marathon/50k'. I am already looking forward to running with you guys in the (hopefully near) future.Pre Snow Camp:And this gal just passin' thru...
Edited by hewinsd on 04/17/2012 17:20:03 MDT.
Thursday...Waiting, waiting, getting closer now, anticipating the sound of the 2:00 bell and the end of my day. Stopping at home, quickly packing, hugs and kisses for the wife and children. She has surprised me with all manner of pre-made food and drink, enough pasta to feed a platoon. Los Angeles traffic now, bouncing in my seat, the car is moving 5 miles per hour but my mind is racing...two hours of driving to pick up Adan.Darkness, headlights, music and conversation for the next 8 hours, stops along the side of the road on I40...Ludlow, other nondescript roadside gas towns, standing and drinking beers in the desert, watching nighttime trains roll beside us. We finally arrive, set up a quick camp on the Arizona Trail in the the Kaibab at 2:30AM.Friday...Adan and I sleep until 8:30, awakening to overcast skies and mild temps, drive in to get our site now, killing time around camp. Runners start trickling in, the odd and fun task begins of matching faces with online personalities, strangers yet not strangers, all good people, we mill about camp for the day. It becomes hard to believe that the following day is supposed to hold a storm, at times the sky even clears on Friday...Bizarre, it's as if we have to sit and wait for the storm to come in order to start our run.As predicted, I wake to the sound of snow on the tent at around 10PM. Looking out the door, an inch or two has already accumulated. It is confirmed, finally, we will be running in some wild weather. I'm not a stranger to the Grand Canyon, having done R2R on back to back days while backpacking, and I know it is hard enough without the weather interfering. I know then and there that people in our group are going to get seriously challenged out there, some to a greater degree than ever before.Saturday...Alarm goes off at 3:30AM and the prospect of getting out of bed and going into the snow is not feeling too good. I get dressed, sort my gear, wander out. The vibe is one of business, everyone a bit hurried in the dark. Snow is falling pretty good at this point. I fry an egg and make toast, get a little coffee into me. Despite a bit of anxiety, I'm thrilled the day has finally come, that all the unknowns are disappearing. I don't care about the snow, at least I know what we're dealing with now. I double check gear, pack food, and soon we are off.The second we reach South Kaibab and I look off into the darkness I know that this is going to be an epic and I'm completely excited. It's cold. It's windy. It's dark and it's snowing. And we're about to do a hell of a hike. My watch reads 5:20AM when I take my first strides down the canyon after Eugene and Dan Hewins. The descent quickly unfolds into one of the most beautiful mornings I've ever had in the mountains. I can see the blue glow of their headlamps weaving the switchbacks and ridges below me as a gray-blue morning light begins to filter through the clouds. Snow is falling, wind is blowing it into our faces, I'm absolutely ecstatic and alive, running smoothly down the mountain. In an hour or so I'm crossing the emerald waters of the Colorado River.By the time I'm down the SK and approaching Phantom Ranch, ITB pain has started in my left knee, an injury I haven't dealt with in years. Not even a single hint of it in any training run, I can only assume it's been brought on by 7 miles immediate downhill running without warming up. I've dealt with it before; my stomach sinks, basically knowing that's it's only a matter of time before I'm going to be brought to a limp. I know from the outset that I'm not going to stop due to it, so I'm trying to psyche myself up for a really long, slow day. Along the canyon I pass and get passed a few times, all of us shifting positions back and forth. By Cottonwood my running day is about over, I can only hike at this point to alleviate pain. From here on out, I have the pleasure of doing a R2R2R mostly on one leg, trying to take the brunt of the stepping and descending on my right leg. Despite it, I'm still having a blast. There is a certain anxiety building, however, that with every step forward I'm just going to be in worse shape going back. I'm pretty convinced that the North Rim is going to wreck me pretty good, making for an epic on the return.I reach the top, feeling pretty terrible. I'm just behind Torrey and Eugene at this point. I'm a little loopy in the head, beginning a bit of a bonk. I know Eugene looked at me with a little concern before I waved him off. For a brief moment I'm alone and a really bad feeling comes over me. My knee is killing me, my stomach is protesting the Snickers bar I've eaten, and I'm getting cold. I get a sinking feeling that I've gotten myself into something bad, that it's going to be a really long way out of this stupid affair. Fortunately, I'm able to shake this low pretty quickly; I down a bottle of Cafe Mocha Perpetuem and the calories/caffeine really help. I get my head together and head out. Within 10 minutes I'm somehow I'm able to tune out my knee pretty well and actually run the entire NK down. I picked up a killer runner's high in the cliff section and rode that energy hooting and hollering all the way to Cottonwood before grinding back into a limp. I'd pay for the burst big-time, as my right foot now started to really ache due to all the compensating for my left knee. The downward spiral. Fortunately though, everything else felt fine and my energy was good.Slogging it out back up SK was another highlite of the trip. Despite pain and fatigue, it was a brilliant climb, reaching near-blizzard feeling conditions higher on the trail. Torrey and I were literally dropping to all fours in places in order to avoid being blown off by the wind. One gust had us pinned on hands and knees for at least 15 seconds until we started making our way up to a rock outcropping. Epic times, but a little worry beginning to form about the runners behind us. I knew we'd be out fine, but these were the sort of conditions that truly bad things can potentially happen in. We can only trust all of our partners will make good decisions.Soon enough I see some headlamps flashing down at us and know we're in the final approach. Before I know it, Eugene and Adan are running down to greet us; there's palpable concern in the air that things were looking pretty bad out there, coupled with relief that we're up. I'm actually feeling pretty good with the exception of my leg. Final time: about 15:20?Attention shifts to finding the last runners, making sure everyone is accounted for. A bit scary at first, not really having any idea what sort of shape they're in or where they are, all the while seeing conditions really begin to deteriorate and rage in the darkness below.Soon everyone is accounted for and mood finally turns to celebration and fun, the trip begins it's fade into memory, and all the moments of pain and swearing off adventures like this are slowly forgotten. How quickly they get replaced by the sparks of new cravings for new adventures. A completely F'n great day, long live the full-spectrum experience!Spent.Thanks to all you great people, not a single one of whom I wouldn't want to share a run with again.
Edited by xnomanx on 04/16/2012 18:57:57 MDT.
This is Stone Poetry. William Carlos Williams is digging you today.
Congratulations everyone! Sounds like a fun trip and everyone returned safely, but a little sore.P.S. Good thing you weren't doing this in Australia, where they have real weather :)
Things I should have done differently: Train more, train more, train more. I brought 8,000 calories, only used 4,000. 6,000 would have been plenty with reserves. And gosh-darn-it-to-heck, the pound bag of dried apricots that I meant to eat a few of on the way down went with me the whole hike! That was a needless pound on my back.Things that went well: My gear was great. You guys had put me on to the Hoodini, Nano Puff and a 2.4 ounce Sea-to-Summit sil-nylon pack all of which worked great and were light and compact. The Hoodini over a wicking t-shirt and a nylon LS shirt was so good, I never used the Nano Puff, but was VERY reassuring to have it in reserve in that weather.I eat normal food, mostly, and the three steak wraps, two Thai-chicken wraps and some honey-roasted cashews worked well. Mike gave me two Goo packets and I definitely felt a pick-up from one 2 miles from the top.Two 20-ounce throw-away water bottles were good for me. I'd never do that in summer, but filling plus drinking a pint or two at each water stop was fine that day - I was peeing once an hour, usually more.Here's a safety tip: I left the car key on top of the driver's corner tire, back where you couldn't see it unless you were looking. And I told everyone where it was. Mike was able to hop in the car and get warmed for the 45 minutes until I got there.
Im not much of a distance runner but I would have loved to do this. I am getting more into running and trips like this actually make it look fun.
We need a fall hiking trip out there in the first week of October to dayhike across the first day, sleep in a cabin, and then dayhike back the second day.
Edited by jshann on 04/17/2012 09:19:01 MDT.
John: That sounds like a great trip to me!I met a guy on the trail Saturday who was overnighting Phantom Ranch (he had reservations for a cabin). He also had reservations for a room on the North Rim in early September and planned to hike Rim-to-Rim in a day but hadn't figured out his return shuttle logistics. I suggested he just train a little more and walk back the next day. I think I convinced him - I at least put the idea in his head.Buy dinner, breakfast, and more trail food on the North Rim and you could do a two-day Rim-to-Rim-to-Rim with a 3-pound pack (plus water weight). A shower, clean sheets, and sink to wash out your undies is pretty cool, IMO, between two moderately long days on the trail.And, if you're passing through Phantom Ranch between 8 am and 4 pm, a $20 bill weighs MUCH less than the Lemonade ($2.50), two more refills (2 x $1), a beer ($6), and 5 Luna or Powerbars (5 x $1.75) you can buy with it at the Canteen.
I snapped out of my post RRR state real quick, spent the last two days climbing up and down ladders all day with tools and equipment, not exactly ideal recovery conditions. I popped a few ibuprofen for the first time in years; felt a bit dirty.I did get a bit of time to do some thinking back on the weekend. As the week winds down I will get a chance to post some photos that I took and share my day of running in the GC. Strangely, the run was almost overshadowed by the time spent hanging out with the group before, during, and after, despite how brief the weekend was. Ya'll are some of the coolest cats I have met and I hope to share a beer and some miles with you in the future.R2R2R 2013? I think that needs to happen.
"R2R2R 2013?"Hell yeah, only since we've already done the flirting with hypothermia thing, I think next we need to try it in July.
Ima go again in a couple weeks to see how it is without a snow/hail/wind storm, sometime between May 5th n May 14th. :)
for anyone who truly wants to trash themselves,there's always a 5 day run of the JMT.
Edited by asandh on 04/18/2012 08:16:15 MDT.
torrey I believe there is a fairly large group from San Diego going to the GC weekend of May 5. Some will be trying the RRR.
Edited by asandh on 04/18/2012 08:15:18 MDT.
Great adventure, all. Thanks for sharing.
Where to start? I think Eugene summed it up pretty well with his first word to me after topping South Kaibab- "Epic", not in the normal "that was an epic wave dude" sense, he said it with a straight face and a somewhat concerned face. It was indeed epic in many facets; the Grand Canyon and Colorado River are truly epic in every sense of the word. The enormity of the run and the extreme weather only added to it. You have the individual dynamic of accomplishment, but even larger was the group's sense of accomplishment. For months we've trained and shared both our successes and failures, we've asked questions and given counsel, we've been healthy and we've recovered from injury and finally- we got to do what we've planned, trained and talked so much about.It was so fun to meet and visit with folks that you already knew pretty well. Despite the weather, despite the personal challenges we all had in one form or another, we accomplished exactly what we set out to do- to enjoy one of natures true crown jewels on very simple (albeit difficult) terms.Thanks to David for picking me up (and returning me) to Phoenix and for doing the driving when close to the city limits :) Thanks to Torrey for scoring such a nice room for us, thanks to Craig for making some really neat mugs to commemorate such a wonderful gathering, thanks to Eugene for making the buttons we all wore in honoring George Matthews (also for accepting a package with unknown contents and bringing it up to the GC) and thanks to everyone who participated and to those who wanted to, but couldn't.pics to follow
When Eugene first posted about this trip I was intrigued even though I don't run anymore. I still wanted to go,but just to attempt a Rim-River-Rim. Getting to meet everyone was a big deal for me. I didn't know anyone there and many of them are significant "celebrities" on this site. For sure these guys and Torrey are the real deal. Not a message board embellish-er in the bunch. And what a diverse group: AZ,CA,GA,AK,TX,MT,NM that I know.I was pretty sure I could make it down and back and I thought it would take me 10-12 hr. Dan Carter,a friend of Eugene's wasn't sure if he could join the group, but he made it and wanted to do the walk so I was happy to have a hiking partner.We decided to hike down S.Kaibab and up Bright Angle. Our pace was way different than the others. We took pictures, talked to others, and really took in the grandeur. Dan is conditioned and this was a stroll for him. I appreciated him keeping me going at a good pace. While speed wasn't my objective (finishing was)it was nice to push it and see what I could do. Dan kept up with me until the 3mile House where he took off and finished about 30min before me.We left at 5, made the river at 8:30, rested and ate for an hour, started up at 9:30, and I topped out at 2:45pm; 9hr 45min.What I wore: 150g wool LS tee, R1 hoody, thermawrap jacket, driducks jacket,150g wool bottoms, nylon pants,thin wool liner socks, medium gloves, Kat P beanie, and Montrail ATs. I was concerned about the wet conditions we expected so I wore goretex socks in am and took them off at the river. Took driducks pants and didn't wear them. Took a Packa to use if it really rained and didn't use it.What I ate: 1.5 PBJs, 1 Snikers, 1 nut bar, 2 beef sticks, handful of fritos, handful of cashews, 2l of sport drink, and 3l of water. Forgot my dried fruit (could have used some of David's apricots).Thanks everybody, I had a great time.
few picsdropping off of Cedar Ridge, this was where the snow started petering out, hard to tell but I think I have 4 or 5 of our group in this picO'Neil Butte through the precipfirst view of the Colorado near the Tipoff (most of us only got to cross it twice :))headed up Bright Angel Ck"Mt Doom" lurking ahead :)the scenery up the North Kaibab trail was mesmerizing, as was the South KaibabAdan at the pump house where he pressed on and after a 10 minute talk to myself I turned around (which happened to be the right choice for me)headed back down Bright Angel, the South Rim looks likes it's a 100 miles away (it would feel like that too! :))back on the S Kaibab looking at Panorama Point towards the North RimBrian and Josh pushing for the top (in what was an absolutely amazing 11 hour finish!!)back at the top- spent, nauseous, mildly hypothermic and thrilled to death
Keep the pics coming! Reliving the day is almost as fun as actually being there....especially as I sit here at my work computer all day!As others have already said....I'd run/hike with any of you, any time. You meet awesome people outdoors and ya'll are no exception.I'm thinking a yearly tradition is in order. Perhaps a fall version as well!
Art, can you gimmi some info on the san diego group? what forum theyre on or something. my email's email@example.com Thanx!
Great photos all!It may be nice to see the canyon's ecosystems in autumn following the growing season.
torreyI just gave your email to a member of the group I mentioned.Trasie PhanI think she just emailed you with her phone number.give her a call, a great person.
What a fantastic trip report! I'm running the 42 mile route R2R2R with 5 other guys on April 28. Hopefully we will have better weather but the long range forecast is calling for rain. From your posts I gather water was turned on at Cottonwood and the Pump House? I assume it was turned off at the N. Rim? Any insight to what we are about to get ourselves into would be helpful.
yup water @ Phantom, Cottonwood and Pump House, no water at the N Rim (on our trip anyways)- this is subject to change, but not likely unless they have a break (which did happen in late March)- we got a very up to the minute water situation by talking to the rangers the day beforeI'd suggest bringing some Micorpur tabs or the like in the unlikely event water is turned off somewhere- plenty of water in Bright Angel Ck :)start early, we started at 5:00 and had folks show up after dark, might have been better to start 4:00?????I'm sure you've read about it, but the downhill sections really (really) take a toll on your quads, while the uphill is extremely difficult it doesn't seem to have near the impact on your legs- for me anywaysthere was one group that was underdressed and ended turning around early, imo best to have clothing to handle a wide array of conditionsyou're in for some fun!
Thanks for the info Mike! We will definitely start at 4AM or earlier and will bring extra clothes based on what your group experienced. I'm certainly expecting it to be a grueling pain-fest! You guys did a great job as this is an extremely difficult run in perfect conditions.
Mike, your first photo above makes me shudder.To hear Art talk about taking a longer route... it's hard to conceive there is a longer version of this... you guys are beasts! :)
The daytime temperatures down at Phantom are pushing the 100F mark this week- we lucked out with our wintery R2R2R blitzkrieg. I was only disappointed that it wasn't warm enough for any of you to see my legs. Maybe next year.
same here- I even bought a special pair just for the run :)I propose an annual run/get together- I think it would be fun to change the locations around, should be plenty of epic runs- trans Zion trek, Rae Lakes, others?????
I like Mikes idea. Im down for anyplace i can drive to ina few hours, nevada, cali, utah, or here.
All this Zion-Traverse talk is rustling my feathers. Took a little time and checked out the route which goes through some amazing country. Here's a few links:http://andrewskurka.com/adventures/zion-national-park-traverse/http://blog.coachingendurance.com/2010/05/new-zion-traverse-speed-record-7-hours.htmlhttp://jasonhenrie.blogspot.com/2011/04/trans-zion-aka-zion-traverse-run-april.htmlhttp://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=west&action=display&thread=14http://www.suluk46.com/adventure%20-%20Zion%20National%20Park.htmlI'm going to go ahead and compile a list of possible locales for some more done in a day group runs of the self supported ultramarathon variety. So far:R2R2R Rd.#2Rae Lakes Loop Trans Zion Traverse (Lees Pass to East TH) Skyline Trail Pecos Wilderness (~50 miles of high altitude wilderness ridge running) The Skyline Trail in the Pecos is one that I've been eyeballing for a while being that it's in NM, it's at altitude for the entire duration of the run (Highest point: 12,404', Lowest point: 9,700') and encompasses the entire Pecos River basin high up in the Sangre de Cristo range. This would be a truly epic run with a ton of elevation gain and I'm still not sure if it's been run in a single day or not. One thing to consider for this run is that this route could be broken up into two days as a fastpack style trip for those unable to do it in a single day. Logistically it's fairly easy, just need a shuttle from Santa Fe (Hyde Park). Water would be somewhat difficult being that it is a high altitude route, most of the water sources are lower in the basin. I'll do some more homework on this one and get back...http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/sfe/recreation/districts/pecos/trails/251_skyline1.htmlHere's a photo of my friend Landon on a section of the Skyline Trail last April:You know you want to!
Edited by Eugeneius on 04/20/2012 20:07:23 MDT.
those all look good to me, the trans Zion also has a nice bailout location @ ~ 30 miles in, I'll be in better shape next time so I won't have to worry about that, but maybe some else will :)I know of several really nice 30-40 miles loops here in Montana as well- Beartooths, Crazies, Pintlars- othersthere was that other one we were talking about around the fire, in BC- the West Coast trailhttp://www.trainharder.com/2011/10/12/running-the-west-coast-trail-in-one-day-and-in-one-shoe-a-photo-essay-by-joe-grant/
I've been slow getting around to putting my photos together, which very few came out unfortunately due to my lens cover being smeared with moisture and Gu in part from my laziness last Saturday in keeping my camera in a dry place. This was one of those times where I was too busy enjoying the run, scenery, and the "moment" to put on the brakes and be diligent in my camera management. I enjoyed our entire R2R2R experience, but climbing up S. Kaibab with Adan stands out in my mind and this photograph of him captures that particular place in time for me well. Adan Lopez and I hadn't seen each other for the entirety of the day until the final ascent up S. Kaibab on the return leg as I ran back down from the North Rim. Inspired by the driving rain and with a little pep in my legs I ran across Black Bridge for my third crossing (*ahem) over the Colorado River, to my surprise there stood Adan at the opening of the tunnel leading up the S. Kaibab trail. Up until this moment I had been running completely solo since pressing on ahead of Craig and Torrey earlier in the morning, only crossing paths with a few runners coming down the N. Kaibab and several going up, so Adan's company in the pivotal moment of the day was most welcomed by me. Our conversation was sporadic at best, intermittently paced out by the gradient of the trail skyward and the strain on our bodies, but what we did discuss mostly concerned our families, the joy of running, and the events that unfolded on the day. Adan and I exchanged the lead as we pushed a steady rate of ascent, stopping every so often so I could fuel and recover briefly before getting after it again. I remember how casual Adan climbed up S. Kaibab, his tall frame seemed to make large incremental gains forward as my feet attempted to keep up with his long strides. Hands in pockets and a calm expression on his face, Adan pressed on like this was just another walk in the park. I stopped to down a gel and ward off the looming fatigue in my legs; in the time it took me to tear into the package, Adan casually slipped his hood over his head as the sky dropped down on us in a biting wintry mix. At that moment we both knew things were going to get a bit serious, if anything miserable, up towards the top of the Rim. Adan is clearly in the zone as he looks down on the Tonto Plateau, the expression on his face is priceless.
Adan is definitely a tough cookie! he knew going in that he was having knee trouble (of course he didn't know that Craig would contract it from him :) )some pics from a recent Zion run by Joe Granthttp://www.alpine-works.com/2012/04/to-zion/
Checking regularly to see the pictures you have been hiding from us.....
"Adan is definitely a tough cookie! he knew going in that he was having knee trouble (of course he didn't know that Craig would contract it from him :) )"That's the last time I'm sharing a tent with Adan. Lucky I didn't get herpes from him too.
Great pictures and descriptions, everyone. Looked like an awesome trip! If anyone is interested in the trans Zion run in say, later August or September, I would totally be down for joining you guys. It is an amazing trip across Zion and has more than a few calf-cramping, gut-busting portions. ;)
Thanks for the pic Eugene. That climb out was really great, it was good sharing it with you. Weather, views and the company made it one to remember for sure. My knee is feeling good, 3-5 mile runs are doable again finally. I'll be ready for May.
"That's the last time I'm sharing a tent with Adan. Lucky I didn't get herpes from him too."Craig, Herpes symptoms can sometimes take a few weeks to surface.
Is it too early to start planning our fall get-together?I vote for Trans-Zion. It'd be a nice time of year out there.
Too early? I don't think so. October?
I'd consider it in October. Zion sounds cool, love the area.Was thinking about heading out to NM for the Deadman 50, so I'd have to choose (couldn't afford both trips).October would be best for me...I go August and September without a paycheck.
if it was early October, might be doable for me (later gets into the heart of hunting season here)if we can't pull it off this fall, I say we definitely do it next springMike
I could probably swing very-early October... I think a handful of us are tentatively running the Deadman Peaks 50 that Craig mentioned later that month.
im down for october, gimmi a location date n time n ill be there. I'll show up a day early to get in some rockclimbing if my BF can come, or someone else who climbs, to belay :)
Edited by everyday on 04/28/2012 21:19:32 MDT.
Anyone without a National Park Annual Pass going to a national park in May? PM me if so. I'd thought I'd start with that offer here in the R2R2M thread and offer it to my betters first. -David
Its awesome to ready ya'lls reports. You guys finally inspired me to go running again. I hadn't been able to unitl maybe a month ago due to back to back injuries that took forever to heal. After that it was laziness. I did about 20 minutes at a pretty good pace, distance unknown. I thought about going on but I decided to stop while I was feeling good to make sure I don't hurt anything. Eugene that Crest fastpack idea sounds pretty cool!
>"I decided to stop while I was feeling good to make sure I don't hurt anything"That was my thought process today in dropping, limbing, and bucking one - count 'em one - 40-foot spruce. There's always another day. Because there's always another tree in my yard.
^ David my "TSA" package arrived :)- thanks!Mike
I can't think past Sep 7 right now (Wasatch).but everyone keep making plans,and I'll follow along in the background.
I can definitely commit to an October Zion trip. Perfect time of year for me. The earlier in the month the better I would think.BB
I'm in the process of moving to PA so I'm not think past the next couple of months. Once I get up there, if I have a bit of spare time I will start running a few routes that I have scouted out. If my family has moved and settled down I would love to do this trip.
Brian said "I can definitely commit to an October Zion trip. Perfect time of year for me. The earlier in the month the better I would think."that's the only time in October I'd have a chance to make itGreg- good luck w/ the move! (moving is not fun- usually anyways :))Mike
So my understanding is that the Trans Zion is ~48 miles. Anyone know the gain?East-West? West-East? What are you thinking?I'm totally stoked on this run and think I could swing early October if we did something similar to the R2R2R...Head out on a Thursday night (or Friday morn.), hang out Friday, run Saturday, head home Sunday...I can typically make it to SW Utah in ~7.5 hours drive from home so traveling is no big deal.Now I just have to get this ITB thing from the R2R2R under control. I'm still getting tightness at only 5K into an easy, flat road run. I've been stopping and walking home before the tightness turns to pain. Ice, roller, stretching post run. Better than two weeks ago, but progress has been slow/frustrating; especially because my knee feels perfectly normal doing everything BUT running. Maybe we should be starting a trans Zion feeler thread here...
Craig - are you usung a roller or other massage techniques on your ITB ?
I'm running Deadman Peaks 50 on Oct. 20, so if possible, the very first week in October would be about as close a date as I feel comfortable committing to right now. Would the very last week in September be a possibility?On topic, Buzz Burrell recently had to bail on his Trans-Zion due to hydration problems:http://blog.ultimatedirection.com/trans-zion-how-not-to-hydrate/#more-176