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Microsoft admits defeat: Xbox One without Kinect coming June 9 for $400
- By Sebastian Anthony on May 13, 2014 at 11:51 am
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Microsoft has announced that the Xbox One, without Kinect, will be available from June 9 for $400. The Kinect-free Xbox One will be available in "all markets where Xbox One is sold." To complete the circle, this fall you'll also be able to buy the standalone Kinect sensor (no price was given, but presumably it'll be $100).
There is just one reason for this new Kinectless Xbox One package, of course: Price parity with the PS4, which has retailed for $400 — a full $100 less than the Xbox One — since its release. Reading the official Xbox blog post, though, it's clear that Microsoft's spin doctoring department is in full flow. Almost the entirety of the post is dedicated to explaining why the Xbox One is best enjoyed with Kinect — but grudgingly, against its best instincts, Microsoft is releasing a version without Kinect because "we've heard that you want more choices from Xbox One."
Beyond the new $400 Xbox One package, the blog post also discusses its decision to remove the Xbox Live Gold paywall for various web services and apps. To keep people using Gold, there'll be an additional free Xbox 360 game in June, and Deals with Gold will launch for the Xbox One in June, offering subscribers discounts on games. In short, Microsoft has addressed almost every issue that we outlined at the beginning of the month — except for the weird "parity" clause that's holding back indie devs from publishing on the console.
To be honest, this is all a little bit sad. Microsoft is desperately trying to keep its cool, but it's very, very hard to stay in control when you give up on your vision and capitulate to every demand. Sentences like this say it all: "To be clear, as we introduce this new Xbox One console option, Kinect remains an important part of our vision." Microsoft really did have an innovative vision when it first introduced the always-online, mandatory-Kinect Xbox One — it might not have been the right vision, but at least Microsoft was pushing the boundaries of console gaming.
All that's left now is a henpecked husk of a games company that's too afraid to make any bold moves, lest the tech press and gamers abandon its console completely. It's kind of pathetic, really. We rag on Microsoft for being a follower rather than a leader — and then when it tries to be different, this is what happens. Oh well. At least we can now buy a console that's functionally almost identical to the PS4, but with significantly weaker hardware, for $400. That's kind of a victory, I guess.
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I think they should also name it Xbox 720, you know, to complete the back paddling.
http://www.mrseb.co.uk/ Sebastian Anthony
You know why it's called the Xbox 720?
because it can only play games at 720P.
http://www.mrseb.co.uk/ Sebastian Anthony
That's pretty good too!
and i guess the xbox one should have been called 129600 because the previous jump was *360, or just 360 squired.
Nice one… Yeah, for me the 720p-9XXp vs PS4s typical 1080p pretty much seals the deal. This generation, I bought my kid a PS4 and I picked up two 770 GTXs. We were both 360 gamers last go-around.
i had played ps3 but i got seduced by the dark side of gaming.
so i became one with the PC master race because i had no internet connection on the ps3. now i do not want to go back to the console side of the gaming
well im the same, BUT i can admit, when it comes to games like GTA or assassins creed, i still use a pad similar to the ps3 for my pc, so for me i think its more ease of use, my pc is now basically my TV too, its all connected, and i prefer all first person shooters on PC, dont care what anyone says, until you get used to using a mouse and realise how much smoother and easier and accurate it is, you will be playing console forever, consoles tend to have an autoaim lock on, why? because consoles just simply arnt as good for aiming, using a joystick isnt as easy as point and click, its just a simple fact, dosnt mean people havnt mastered controllers, but, if it was controller vs mouse without any autoaim or anything, the mouse would win every time on aiming
mm assasin creed was good with keyboard and mouse. but prince of persia just sucks with K&M.
GTA is mixed i played GTA SA and VC using a M&K the shooting was just too easy while driving was less fun and flying was hard to get used to until i remapped it (heli ok. plane NO.).
it would be fun if there was some way that you could walk/drive / fly with a joy stick (the right side of the controller) while keeping the mouse for aiming turning and user interface etc
Cause they've made so many U-turns, they're not sure where they stand with this "One".
At least, with Xbox 720, it will be a natural progression of their product name.
http://www.mrseb.co.uk/ Sebastian Anthony
No, because when people see it, they turn 720 degrees and walk away.
Quoting Sebastian: LOL "No, because when people see it, they turn 720 degrees and walk away." http://i.imgur.com/wClqiUJ.png
Actually they'll be back where they started …
http://www.mrseb.co.uk/ Sebastian Anthony
It's a famous Xbox 360 joke :)
ok haha but c'mon sebastian — take a long look at your copy. this reads like a hit-job rather than journalism, especially the snarky last para. there's a way to criticize microsoft's xbox unit without being wildly intemperate.
http://www.mrseb.co.uk/ Sebastian Anthony
I thought I actually came across as a Microsoft sympathiser. (I actually think MS should've stuck to its always-online, mandatory-Kinect, game-sharing vision for the Xbox One.)
yes, I remember that very clearly. Actually you are the only and single one tech journalist in the world I remember by name because of that (also for the pro-DRM thing).
http://www.mrseb.co.uk/ Sebastian Anthony
Aw, I'm blushing!
Stacey Bright
So you wanted Microsoft to fail even harder?
Im sure that the folks over at "No Such Agency" share in that sentiment, Sebastian. Let's not forget how completely penetrated m$ products are by the US govt. Not that they can say no, but it doesnt make me want that device in my house, either.
Do you use a cell phone? If so, then I cannot fathom why you think that the Xbox is such a problem. A phone can listen and transcribe as well as report you exact position and give detailed activity logs. To think that Microsoft is doing what you claim is Alex Jones territory. Cell phones and laptop computers have been capable of at least this much nefarious activity for a decade and there has been zero evidence that things have gotten that crazy. Email snooping and crypto bypassing, sure, those have been exposed thanks to Snowden and other patriots, but not recording and transcribing everyone's daily activity. People seem more than happy to provide that info on their own via social media.
You can in fact turn the Xbox completely off, it is a quick setting change in the dashboard. When the white light turns orange, the 12V rail is off and only 5V output is active, consuming under 1W. The Kinect is definitely not accomplishing what you claim on 1W of power. I checked this with a Kill-A-Watt meter and multimeter. You can also unplug the Kinect completely and use the console just fine.
I can turn off a phone, even remove the battery.. but more so, I can actually monitor EVERY single application and device being used on my phone in real time…. I know when something I didn't initiate is being run, and can shut it down immediately. Huge difference.. with the kinect plugged in, you have no idea what is on the other end.. and in order for it to actually work it must listen to everything, at all times… is it really big brother we have to look out for? or are there other issues, such as.. the merging of the Chinese community to the rest of console gaming…. expect some radical hacks of the kinect system and the xb1 in general from 2014 on.
I am sure that if there is some way to hack things, the Chinese will figure it out.
WRT phones, sure one CAN pull the battery and monitor all running processes, but the vast majority of people don't. There's no need to because I highly doubt that the NSA is actually running spech-to-text monitoring on everyone's phone, just like I really doubt that they got MS to agree to program it in to their consoles. Buuuuuut, since it is a closed system, the public is free to speculate as they please.
A more realistic assessment of privacy invasion is this: your phone, TV and game console already DO monitor the bulk of your activity and send it to corporate entities for ad-serving purposes. People seem to be OK with it because "they get free services in exchange" but in the end there are detailed behavioral profiles being built in corporate databases that are probably accessible by the NSA. The NSA does not need to do something totally obvious like speech-to-text (obvious because it consumes huge processing power which is very noticeable) because people are already willingly sharing way too much personal information.
rewards cards….. biggest culprit out there… I don't use them, or a "smart phone"… I prefer my 84′ motorola…
jim moore
Good one Mirimont
you missed stalking some of my posts… are you taking a break or did Disqus ban you again?
Two wrongs do not make a right, but three left turns do.
doesn't matter how many degrees you turn, or even don't turn, if you start walking you will always be going away from it….. (sorry to ruin the old joke)
Should have named it Xbox U then, you know, for its multiple U turns because listening to U (us) and yeah… to befriend nintendo.
It's the Xbox One-Eighty now! LOL!
Rick Brumfield
Ug, this was a poor story, "To be honest, this is all a little bit sad. Microsoft is desperately trying to keep its cool, but it's very, very hard to stay in control when you give up on your vision and capitulate to every demand." No, whats sad is this story.
Its a bit sad that MS did what they did with Win 8: not listen or see what people really want. Or understand their tech. Kinect is not a gaming interface. It has a lot of applications outside of gaming they ignore, mocap, OS interactions, interactive smart board. Then the whole cable box interaction, while many in their core demographic are moving away from cable.
What this is is them finally giving users what they want: a gaming machine that gets XBOX exclusives. No forcing a camera peripheral on those who don't want it, no poorly planned "family system", no cutting out used games. This is – almost – what they should've had in the beginning.
If they wanted something to be a livingroom entertainment center for movies & streaming, they should've created something separate (not to mention cheaper, I don't know anyone who would pay $500 when what they are wanting is something like an Apple TV). Core gamers like that, but we also already know how to work it.
http://www.mrseb.co.uk/ Sebastian Anthony
FWIW, I think Microsoft should stuck with its original vision of Windows 8, too.
I don't think you win any battles by backing down on things like the Start screen/menu, or removing always-online/mandatory Kinect. You just delay the inevitable.
Windows 8 was obviously a play for the mobile space. Everyone knows that Microsoft has to win in mobile, because the desktop/laptop is dying. But, faced with noisy opposition, MS backed down and kept the desktop/non-mobile crowd happy. So, hooray — now we have a more usable version of Windows 8 on the desktop, but MS is still no closer to winning in the mobile space.
It's a very similar story with the Xbox One.
Vance Goober
You are wrong on two points here. First, MS made the start menu a battle ground when they shouldn't have. If they had just let people proceed with hacking a start menu back onto Win8, it would never have been the explosion in their face it turned into. If you FIGHT, and THEN back down, you inevitably appear the loser. If you don't fight, you can't be accused of backing down if you handle it appropriately.
Second, harmonizing a touch screen interface for a desktop and console and every device they support was just plain stupid. You are making the mistake of equating this vision with going after the mobile space, and the two are orthogonal. I don't have to have the Win Phone 8 interface on my laptop to enjoy a Win Phone 8 device. I can just buy a Win Phone 8 and use Windows 7 on another device. You see it in their commercials, talking about one interface for all devices. No, that's not what I want. I want a touch screen oriented interface for touch screen devices and non-touch screen oriented interface for non-touch screen devices. Is that so hard to understand? I guess if you are MS, it is. Nor would I think it would be a good idea for Apple to have put the iPod wheel interface on their MacBook Pros.
Further, their problems in the mobile space goes far back before the tile interface. Their lack of progress has nothing to do with back tracking in the PC space. None at all. They were extremely, extremely late, which is 9/10ths of their problem. The other 1/10th is that they've never been able to make a mobile OS worth a crap previously. Their old vision was similarly one-dimensional. Hey, let's put a lighter weight version of the windows interface on a smaller device and give people a stylus to click with instead of a mouse. Basically the opposite of what they did with Windows 8, which was copying from the phone interface back to the desktop.
Arturo Stocker
Nor would I think it would be a good idea for Apple to have put the iPod wheel interface on their MacBook Pros"
I guess Apple had already thought about doing this, lol.
Rick Brumfield
I don't think you are much involved in the day to day of people lives. I work in a rural school district & we would not be able to move to Win 8 because it works horrible on desktops. Trying to shoehorn a touch interface onto everything is poor design. And fortunately MS is not Apple. Apple is the type of firm who would (can, has) say this is the way it is, buy it. & people have. MS does not have that swagger, or the audience for it. They are an enterprise heavy company & when you have such a large audience, & they say this is unworkable, you rework it. Metro is great for mobile, it works, but MS does not have the mobile user base to think that metro is all you need, not to mention that while PC is dwindling, it is far from dead.
What they are currently creating is what Apple already understood & what 8 should've been: metro side for touch, desktop for PC laptop. Thats what a lot of us thought they would do. Not to mention how un-intuitive win 8 is when you are trying to service a machine. Safe mode should not be accessed only after you are able to logon to your machine.
And I don't see your point with your last paragraph. Yes, we have a more desktop friendly version of 8, which is great for those of us who use a desktop 8 hours a day, & it still has Metro. Not to mention that its tablet business is on the uptick, even if its only in the single digits. And you seem to be forgetting that XBOX 1 was derided for many of its features. I can only imagine what would've happened if they had not reversed course on things like always connected & the digital share stuff. My city has mediocre broadband, 10 min outside the city limits there is NO broadband. If they had kept these features they would be selling fewer machines. Now that the XBOX 1 is better without the Kinect, AND cheaper, I am sure sales will increase.
I love MS & its products & love it when they make them better, like now. Some of what they want to do might make sense, in 10 years. Remember when Gates intro-ed tablet computing, in 2001? Yeah, cool idea, not ready for prime time. Glad it died for a decade until tech was actually ready for it.
http://www.mrseb.co.uk/ Sebastian Anthony
I didn't say that we should force a tablety version of Windows 8 onto desktop computers!
I was more suggesting that Windows 7 is a fine desktop OS — and with a few licks of paint would continue to be so for many years to come.
I was more suggesting that Windows 8 should've been mobile-centric, leaving Windows 7 for those who want to continue doing mouse-and-keyboard work. There are a few nice changes in Windows 8 that could've been backported into Windows 7 pretty easily I think.
Rick Brumfield
But that wasn't "their vision", as you put it. Their vision was one interface to "bring all things together", which is poor design philosophy. You design things dependent on application. And thats not how OS development goes (well, it is with Apple who just tacks on some new features & calls it a new OS). There are a lot of kernel level things different between Win 7 & Win 8. You can't just put a few licks of paint on an OS when so many things have changed. Which is why 8.1 (& hopefully 8.2/9) with much better desktop space makes so much sense. It still has the advanced kernel architecture but gives you the option of Metro or desktop, which is brilliant when you look at things like the Yoga or T100 that transform from tablet to laptop.
Would 2 different OS's have worked? Probably, might have even been smarter. But that would just be playing Apple's game & probably made a headache for enterprise. They wanted to bring everything together (since that "inevitable", apparently). Great idea on the backend – easier for devs, coders, admins – but poor implementation for users.
http://www.mrseb.co.uk/ Sebastian Anthony
I'm actually not sure what MS's original vision was. Good point.
I actually think the Metro interface was added quite late to Windows 8's development, when MS realised that it had to tackle the mobile market much sooner than expected (2010, the release of the iPad).
Vance Goober
That's the thing though… your post wasn't entirely clear on this point the first time. Not trying to drag you into a debate since I know as the author of this article, you must rise above the fray.
The thing is, MS could have offered Windows 8 with different "desktops" for different devices. It's already a modular OS. It has so many layers of abstraction, it easily could have been their vision to have the right interface for the right device, but the same engine underneath, and keep updating that engine to Win9, Win10, etc.
Linux, built by the bazaar of developers (yes a reference to that famous article), has many desktop interfaces. If you don't like one, you substitute another. And there are some incredibly cool ones too. I recall Beryl, for example. I'm sure there are more modern ones that push the envelope even more. I'm not suggesting MS allow third party desktops, but they could/should have a vision of one OS, but the right experience for the right device. That was not, however, the route they chose. They chose one experience (a touchy-screeny experience) for every device I own, even a console to be run on a TV that sits ten feet away from me, lol. Not really much of a vision there. It's more of a corporate mandate from up high that all product divisions were forced to march to, whether it made sense or not. And that's not vision. That's forced harmonization.
Vance Goober
That's the thing though… your post wasn't entirely clear on this point the first time. Not trying to drag you into a debate since I know as the author of this article, you must rise above the fray.
The thing is, MS could have offered Windows 8 with different "desktops" for different devices. It's already a modular OS. It has so many layers of abstraction, it easily could have been their vision to have the right interface for the right device, but the same engine underneath, and keep updating that engine to Win9, Win10, etc.
Linux, built by the bazaar of developers (yes a reference to that famous article), has many desktop interfaces. If you don't like one, you substitute another. And there are some incredibly cool ones too. I recall Beryl, for example. I'm sure there are more modern ones that push the envelope even more. I'm not suggesting MS allow third party desktops, but they could/should have a vision of one OS, but the right experience for the right device. That was not, however, the route they chose. They chose one experience (a touchy-screeny experience) for every device I own, even a console to be run on a TV that sits ten feet away from me, lol. Not really much of a vision there. It's more of a corporate mandate from up high that all product divisions were forced to march to, whether it made sense or not. And that's not vision. That's forced harmonization.
"the desktop/laptop is dying" – Hardly. I'll certainly grant that its in decline… but dieing? Not even close.
it is being replaced by devices the size of the smallest tablet, but with the processing capability of a desktop (except for intense graphical processing). The general term "desktop pc" will definitely vanish given the trend of size reduction while increasing performance. As of right now, this very moment, just in the games industry, PC gaming accounts for only 6% of the gaming population, and little over 6% in global game sales. Portable and powerful devices will replace it's need in the near future.
powerful pcs wont even be necessary for gaming in the future. games will be streamed. look up Sonys PS Now service. when it's finished you'll be able to play playstation 3 games on your smart phone, but you have to still buy a game controller. the PS Now service can also use the PS4 games but Sony wont allow that until there's PS5 games.
in the beta right now actually, well aware of this blending in… except for one factor that hurts it: inconsistent internet paths. We, as a nation, and globally, lack a standardized internet infrastructure, and so, streaming can be good or bad, with too many variables in between to ruin it. You can pay for the fastest internet in the world all day long, but somewhere along the line, it goes through some po-dunk hardware bogging it down on it's way between A and Z..
jim moore
Funny one Miriont
Sam Cerulean
Yeh but at least 50% of the 94% who don't game on PC's probably aren't being real gamers. I know that's a very obscure statement but it's true an real gamers know it. If you want me to clarify it further I will…
I think you are very right though, I can actually see a Gaming device next year or the following being the size of a tablet but with the power of a desktop with HDMI ports. I think what we consider desktop computing today is becoming more and more heterogeneous where as tablets and mobile ect are being designed to become highly efficient at general computing.
So as desktop hardware evolves in this fashion I think it's going to be very hard to compact into mobile devices until graphene computing takes off and we can pass well beyond the 11nm threshold
real gaming doesn't matter, in the end it's the money, which drives support, driving development, driving more sales, while we, as players know casuals from "hardcore", hardcore doesn't keep companies running, or food in the bellies of the developer's children. (btw.. that figure also includes mobile gaming.. so yeah… while we don't consider mobile to be real gaming, it's a huge chunk of the market)
the rest I agree with, and we will be looking for shortcuts to get around until we have graphene in a good state, and even quantum computing in a more user friendly consumer state, the shortcuts we see over the years will be interesting, and may affect hardware development in the process.,
jim moore
Your the woman Mirimont
I'd be very curious as to where you got you 6% statistic. According to the ESA, an astounding 63% of households own a PC specifically to play games. Add to the equation nearly every single videogame you play is made on a desktop… I want to really emphasize that point. PCs are the standard for game development… not cell phones… not I-pads… even laptops only come in at a relatively close second.
Given that the games industry is worth around 15 billion annually, and all those game companies like making that money, the Desktop wont be going away anytime soon. If anything, the desktop will continue to grow more and more powerful.
it comes form annual reports from the ESA and NDP since 2005, and you are wrong on those points btw.
while nearly every videogame is developed on PC HARDWARE, it is usually done so through kits.. none of which has anything to do with the point of the subject.. fact is, users outnumber developers… and it is a well known fact that the majority of the gaming population and market sales do NOT come from PC.. period……. the money is in consoles and mobile atm….
Now.. while many homes have a pc, it most certainly is NOT for gaming, those are usually for common use, school, work, etc.. NOT GAMING…. THAT is the fact.
While we can sit here as time goes on, can cram more and more of the advanced tech onto the same massive desktop all we want.. those hardcore gaming, power hungry types are even fewer than the average pc gamer…
not a point of sales…..
It is already being seen today that people are comfortable using 10″ devices to do everything they used to do on a standard desktop or laptop pc….this isn't fortune telling, it's a current trend readily visible by people with their eyes open. The need for such massive size, and given that most stations being used require MINIMAL processing power, is swiftly fading.
The problem likely is that you yourself are one of those power pc users.. who often think of themselves as the "master race" and elite.. and that everything must bend to your warped will, but the facts are far from your desired perception.
2005? You pulled your statistic from something that is nine years old? Really? That stat I pulled for you? Yeah, that was from 2013. As in relevant last year and this year. You can say and claim whatever you'd like to make yourself feel better, but when you're done, please feel free to reconnect with actual relevant facts here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theesa.com%2Ffacts%2Fpdfs%2Fesa_ef_2013.pdf&ei=R6Z3U4SBAcbsoASe1YK4Dw&usg=AFQjCNHg5x66O2wJhixe6RFBGHn3notd9g&sig2=1-eH-It5X93HrQ_Aah-Y_A&bvm=bv.66917471,d.cGU
Guess that's a little more "As of right now, this very moment" than your 2005 report isn't it?
As to your little "master race" and " warped will" comment, I think perhaps you should look in a mirror instead of projecting your presumptions and frustrations onto others. Cheers
here we go again.. reading comprehension fail…
the reports are annual going back to 2005, those are the CURRENT figures…..
how are you even able to have an argument when you don't understand what is being said??
Your "current figures" aren't. Lets analyze exactly what you currently have posted shall we? "it comes form annual reports from the ESA and NDP since 2005″… so lets see here, if I'm following the basic tenets of English, saying "it" comes from "annual reports" since "2005" is saying you got some, if not all, of your information from 2005. So, according to your "logic" 2005 is current? Then by your logic, I guess the 2013 report I posted is a forecast instead of a current report? Look again.
Funny thing about English, ya don't get to rewrite the rules to fit your argument. Nice attempt at reframing your comment though.
TLDR version for you: #l2englishNoob
I gave you the current stats. But by all means, remain ignorant. Its no skin off my nose.
saying "it" comes from "annual reports" since "2005" is saying you got information from 2005.
The definition of the word "since" is:
: from a past time until now
It would seem that you need to review the meaning of the word.
The meaning of the word "since" doesn't change the meaning if the sentence. The sentence still indicates some, if not all, of the information came from 2005, making it inaccurate and not "current". My previous statement stands.
Cute, you went back and revised your previous post to make your ignorance of the english language look less. Good thing I quoted you, lol. Gotta love how Disqus lets you wipe away your own idiocy as if it never happened.
Your previous statement has been edited, so your previous statement clearly does not stand. But if you like to pretend and posture, I guess that's your own insecurity showing through. You can admit a goof without going to great lengths to cover it up. It's just you and a couple people reading this part, so who is really being fooled here?
First off, Mirimon, have the courage to reply under your own pseudonym if you're going to reply at all. Second, stop trying to project your failures onto someone else… that's a classic political maneuver… screw up and blame your opponent for your own failings. Please, though, keep trying. By all means. I noticed your addition of the word "since" in your comment: "it comes form annual reports from the ESA and NDP since 2005″. I was willing to overlook it initially since it really didn't change the context of what you stated. But now you want to project your errors onto me? Classic political BS. But again, that's your problem, not mine. I expect next you'll be claiming it wasn't really you, but some mysterious random person who replied… cause no one ever does hit-and-run blogging on extreme tech… especially Mirimon… right. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you. Ultimately, you've lost this discussion, because you couldn't fix the facts to your altered narrative. Feel free to rage, whine and bang your head against the wall as long as you feel it necessary. Its just more entertainment for me.
So now your argument is that he inserted "since" after I called you out on not being able to read a simple English sentence and gather the clearly implied meaning. Again, good thing I quoted your original post where you quoted his use of the word "since", which means you are now resorting to lying even though the record shows you were mistaken in the first place. And jokes on you because you assume two people who point out your flaws with handling English, they must be the same person. Shrug. I'm a magnet to blatant hypocrisy, and you were calling him illiterate while displaying one of the most egregious examples of not reading plain sentences. Understanding the meaning of "since" is something that is learned in extremely early childhood. So early, it's never formally taught, like the other "big" words, lol. I don't expect someone who can't even read above a K level to discern the finer points of a debate, such as identifying the number of people they are actually arguing with, lol. But hey, keep it up son, it's a good laugh over here too. At least be a man and admit your mistake. We all saw it. You are the only one in denial. Whether you think there's one person or two here, you still made it, and are trying to cover it up.
Still lack the courage to use only your own pseudonym Mirimon? that's fine. Not my problem really. If you're going to pretend to be someone else, I recommend working on those tells in how you type. It gives you away… particularly the forced affectations. You want to claim to be a different person? Fine. What do I care. The only person you're fooling is yourself. You are still unable to provide a shred of evidence to back up your position. I provided a link directly to the study I cited. You can't back up your position? You can't come to the table with anything substantive? All you've got is sad attempts at insults? Then I'm done with you. Come back when you can man up.
Look boy. You can't figure out who you are arguing with, fine. Next time I'll bring you a puzzle you can handle, such as a nice wooden shape jigsaw with knobs on the pieces. This time, I'm not going to engage your deflections and attempts to change the subject back to something other than that you are an child who can't even read above a "See Spot Run" level who has to have words like "since" and "the" defined for you. And at that point, you go back and change your old posts to hide your inadequacy. So it's not surprising you see invisible "tells" or whatever, lol. (rolls eyes) Take your advice and man up to your idiocy and lack of reading skillz. Then we can talk about who I am or who I am not, mmm-kay?
I could care less about your study or the point you are trying to back. I'm sure if I did care, I'd have to define half the words and run my finger underneath the words while sounding them out slowly for you so I could tell you what it actually said. But I don't care. Your free pre-K education is over for today. Now get out of daddy's lap and go play son.
Still nothing substantive? If my education level is so beneath yours, then you should be able to provide some shred of evidence. Here's what ya do have… No proof, no citation, no credibility… and also no caliber of character. That's the best you got? Sad. As I said before, come back when you can man up.
My proof that you are an uneducated child or an adult moron is above. To whit:
saying "it" comes from "annual reports" since "2005" is saying you got information from 2005.
That's all I set out to prove, i.e. that you are a) stupid, and b) a hypocrite for accusing another of not being able to read. Proof supplied…again Case closed.
You bore me. Provide relevant proof or GTFO.
jim moore2
Here let me help you put those words back in your mouth where they belong along with all the other stupid things you've said:
saying "it" comes from "annual reports" since "2005" is saying you got information from 2005.
And if I was boring you, you wouldn't still be replying, lol. I personally think is your masochistic tendencies that keeps you coming back for more and more abuse. Ooops, there I went again using words you don't understand. Here's some help:
Provide relevant proof or GTFO
saying "it" comes from "annual reports" since "2005" is saying you got information from 2005.
Again, proof that you are an idiot. You really love this don't you? "Spank me harder," you say. Well ok!
Retyping my point and claiming it makes me wrong would be you sticking your head in the sand and calling it water. Doesn't matter how many times you do it, it doesn't make you right…and never will. If anything, each time you do it, I can't help but almost feel bad for you… cause I can tell you really think it helps your argument… but, in the end, I don't care. So, repeat it all ya like. You're just affirming my point.
jim moore2
My only point is that you cannot read above a pre-K level. You asked for proof. Here it is again, lol:
saying "it" comes from "annual reports" since "2005" is saying you got information from 2005.
And you keep thinking my point is something other than that point, which again is a fail for your reading comprehension.
So again, here's the proof that_you_cannot_read:
saying "it" comes from "annual reports" since "2005" is saying you got information from 2005.
You have no counter to that proof, none, other than words words words on a different subject, so you punt on refuting the proof. That's a second fail for you.
And then you keep saying you are done, and bored, yet keep coming back over and over, lmao! The only thing to feel bad about, other than you cannot read better than a developmentally slow 5 year old, is that you cannot let it go even though it's staring you in the face that you struggle to read above a K level. It's just "proven fact" to the rest of us, lol.
"You have no counter to that proof" Hah! I don't need any. You just go right ahead and keep repeating it. It makes me smile. Oh and, provide relevant proof or GTFO.
Here, smiling right back at ya:
saying "it" comes from "annual reports" since "2005" is saying you got information from 2005.
This can help you with your problem:
you should stop trying to use big words you clearly don't understand……
allow me to reiterate the key words you are not actually looking at:
the reports date BACK to 2005, they are new reports starting then, and done every year (that btw, is the short definition of "annual" for you), and have since been done for 2013.
Your really need to check yourself before you find the damage you've done upon yourself is irreparable. As in, try "analyzing" what your massive lack in reading comprehension is.
Oh I have a great example of a failure of reading comprehension. It comes in the form of your replies.
You seem to think you can just ignore the wording of your own comment and that somehow this makes you right. It doesn't and never will.
You're trying to cover for your own research mistake. You'd like me to buy off the notion that any report that isn't the 2013 report might be relevant or current… but here's the thing: they have "annual" reports because older reports are no longer "current". So anything "since" 2005 up through 2012, is no longer relevant. The 2013 report will cease being relevant when the 2014 report is made available.
You keep digging yourself a deeper hole. You'd be doing yourself a favor if you just stopped responding. But hey, you don't have to take my advice. I'll happily hand you another shovel when that one wears out. Cause, well, your ignorance is not my problem.
try homedepot.com
they offer a wide selection of shovels and other tools you might be interested in, since digging holes seems to be your thing.
As for reading, and comprehension, I would advise against you looking any harder into this, it seems well above your head and might lead to medical emergencies if you try any harder. Perhaps there is a grownup nearby who can help you with this and explain to you where your misunderstanding lies.
You're attempts to insult me, and inability to defend your inadequate research and poor choice of wording is nothing short of pathetic. You've already admitted defeat by attempting to resort to insults that are nothing short of infantile. You've even failed to provide a single fact or link to back up your position. I'm done wasting time on the likes of you. Come back when you have something of substance rather than BS and bluster.
not my research, just the ESA, NPD etc… but yeah, I'm not sure what it is you are soo upset about, it's a simple fact, common knowledge many pc elitists manage to be blind to. Look, when you go back to your 6th grade class tomorrow, ask the other students there what they play games on…. while a the average home pc is capable of playing a library of titles, it is seldom used in this manner. Are confusing the number of pc's in peoples home to be the same as number of pc gamers?
Substance: on the first post, it's not my fault you CHOOSE to ignore fact, that is your own failing. Perhaps your home ec teacher can help you learn something more appropriate for your acumen? You still really haven't countered with anything BUT insults, try looking at those reports for a change, and note the DECLINE before 2013 and its current state compared to previous.
The term "Your research" is figurative, not literal. With as much as you keep throwing around the "blah blah blah go back to school" and similar derogatory comments as though you had clue one about who your talking too, I'd figure I wouldn't have to explain the delineation. I guess I shouldn't be surprised since you've shown a marked lack of ability to comport yourself in any manner resembling civility. Point of fact; you started off with the unwarranted insults and snide remarks, merely because I asked you for your source information…which I might add, you've still failed to provide. Sure, you've given a vague indication that your data comes from somewhere between 2005 and 2013… but I can just as easily claim Charles Darwin said that his theory of evolution was just a joke. Without something to back it up, its just words. Claiming something to be true without having the data to back in up, doesn't make you right.
You've chosen, for whatever reason, to paint me as the enemy… one of your apparently much hated "pc elitists". I'm both a gamer and a developer. I'm platform independent. I don't care what type of platform you play on…I don't buy into that whole childish "my game system is better than yours" BS.
I have another link for you from a site that is at the core of business ventures and statistical data: Forbes. Here ya go. Turns out I was wrong; PC ownership is higher than the top 3 console systems combined. :http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2014/04/28/as-global-pc-game-revenue-surpasses-consoles-how-long-should-console-makers-keep-fighting/
Additionally, global PC game sales are higher than that of consoles. I'll even give you the specific line: "DFC Intelligence owner David Cole tells PCR that revenue from PC gaming has surpassed that of consoles on a global scale". I posted that very specifically due to your claim: "As of right now, this very moment, just in the games industry, PC gaming accounts for only 6% of the gaming population, and little over 6% in global game sales."
Bear in mind the entire basis for my argument is that Desktop PCs aren't dead/dying. This isn't saying their better than any other platform… this isn't even meant to be a comparison so much as an explanation as to why they'll be around for quite a while yet. Hopefully you'll be able to see beyond whatever animosity you've developed for PC gamers… or at the very least, look at this as just data…not a competition.
herein lies the fault in the whole discussion, while you are arguing that Desktop PC's are not dying out (which they are, slowly atm lost to other devices that are mobile and just as capable), I am arguing that PC GAMING is not as much of a major mover in the gaming industry. As for your point, atm all I can ague with is that less and less PC's are being brought in for repair, while more and more phones, tablets, and "notebooks" are being brought in instead. And aside from Dell products, most PC's being brought in are for common user ineptitude needing removal of viruses or basic storage/OS/registry maintenance. Many companies (especially small business, start-up, etc, employ up to 1 pc at the most, running everything from tablets for their interface, sales, tracking and such (rather than silly, outdated, slow and underpowered PC's with terrible database builds taking up space, physically and for air flow and cooling.) I am telling you this, the common desktop PC is fading, it really is, more and more have decided to use a laptop, and now are transitioning to tablet size replacements for that laptop, as the number of people who can honestly use the power of a full desktop PC, and WOULD, is finite. The market trend itself will want portable, adaptable, versatile and easy to use devices that are intuitive, further pushing the trend away from traditional PC ownership. I'm sure you know as well as I how easy it really is to build our own PC's, for cheap, and run better than some trash from dellienware, BUT.. the average consumer doesn't know this, and do not want to be bothered with such steps to acquire it.
And if I've not said it before, I have nothing against PC gaming, I myself would consider me to be a power PC gamer (email@example.com, 64gb ddr3@2400 Mhz, GTX690's in quad SLI displayed on three XBR84x900's.) I tend to play EVERY PC title that comes out or offers a closed alpha testing to me, summarily laying into them with aplomb and critique. My issue is with many of the so called "master race" trolls who can't grasp that pc gaming as a whole is a minority in the gaming industry, and hardcore pc gamers are fewer still.
jim moore2
I'm surprised you didn't notice that the latest article he listed considers tablets as "PCs". It's another fail of reading comprehension.
I believe this is the case because our perception of what constitutes a PC has fundamentally changed. Consider that Blizzard's wildly popular digital card game Hearthstone is playable on a Microsoft Surface, a $4000 custom gaming PC, and an iPad. All of which double as productivity devices, communication devices, and entertainment consumption devices.
The PC isn't dying, it's merely redefining its form factor.
lol.. no.. failing at reading comprehension would require that a person has to have read that particular thing, and not understood it. As I have NOT read his latest article, (since I simply do not follow people around) how could I have possibly failed to comprehend it? But thanks for pointing out that the writer agrees with my statement that the traditional desktop PC is changing (regardless of form factor, when you pick it up and carry it around in your pocket, using it on the go, it's no longer a desktop pc, by definition).
Who ever you are, it seems you fail at understanding the definitions of words and terminology, by all means come back when you have something valid to argue rather than looking like an asshat.
I was pointing out he misread his own article, lol. I was saying to you, I was surprised you didn't notice his article didn't actually support his own point. No need to get testy.
but, that's what testicle s are for!
"I am arguing that PC GAMING is not as much of a major mover in the gaming industry" Then we've been talking past each other to a large degree. I would agree PC sales are, and have been on the decline for a while now. The evidence is pretty plain to see. PCs hit market saturation quite some time ago. However, with major customers such as each branch of the US military, the US government, the majority of private business alone, desktops are going to be around for a while… even if the general consumer continues its love affair with economy of power in smaller devices. Particularly since the military almost never throws anything away… (I know that one from personal experience). Unless its the navy…they actually throw a lot of things away…well, sell through DRMO…not throw away. Anyway, its seems we've reached a point where we can agree to disagree and walk away civilly. Ultimately, time will tell how the PC and PC gaming does… not so much the two of us bickering about it like a pair of new-Yorker Rabi kibitzing over the Torah.
as an active military member myself be advised, they are moving the common work the majority of soldiers and leaders do onto mobile devices. The military's problem is they don't know any better, they simply buy in bulk under contract from Dell, and fail to use the soldiers who are trained and practiced in that field to perform the services and simply build and replace for much less. (this also provides needed training of commo soldiers, and enables them into the civilian workforce when it is time for their transition). It would save them, and us tax payers, a good sum of annual cost, and wouldn't be hard to standardize in either, as the branch commander would have the dictation to state which parts are to be used. This would also ensure that we are not spending on more machine than we need, and put those resources to better performing machines where needed. Every day our systems run rampant with issues of the net, BSOD, parts maintenance, and it all has to be fixed under contract with some other company, taking away valuable mission time. You and I both know the military is almost backwards when it comes to computing hardware and networking. How much easier would it have been for that commo geek (s-6 rep) to simply grab a new PSU? Rather than waiting months for DOIM and that whole process? How about common pc maintenance, like disc defrag/cleanup? It never happens, they don't even simply schedule it automatically during down-time, and none of the people using it are allowed to do that, causing registries left and right to get all out of whack. Sad thing is, it has been this way long enough that many of the commo oriented MOS don't even know how to do those things anymore. I remember a time when if there was a serious problem, the post would simply sub contract a local pc shop (without favoring one) who would win the contract (after applying for appropriate securities and assurances) and work on those issues the s-6 and g-6 could not resolve (it didn't have time to). It's all a hot mess. Most PC's in the military still have wide open access to the BIOS of all things….. (not my units…) simply because they don't understand the breach in security. All this, for a so called "paperless" Army which uses 4 times as much paper as before…
It also varies from base to base. Last time I was at JBLM, significant portions of the base were still on desktop PCs. Same with Schofield Barracks. Parts of Pearl and Naval Base Kitsap have made the transition, particularly Keyport… PSNS however is still firmly locked into Desktops…particularly with the money crunch in that region. Their having a hard time replacing an aging workforce let alone buying new tools for the job. Buying new hardware that isn't deemed critical is out of the question. Part of the issue, is all the contracts that must be met and heeded… My time in the Army had us soldiers doing nearly anything and everything that needed to be done…now it seems everything is contracted out. Point of example: You may or may not know this, but the Coast Guard aren't permitted to clean their own ships… its contract work. I learned that from a Coastie and had to verify it through a few others… to me that's like having a contract with someone to do your PT for you… or to clean your m-249 after you've shot a few thousand rounds. Its part and parcel to the job, at least in my view. In any case, everything changes. You may be right. The PC might be on its last legs. I certainly don't have a corner on the facts. Either way though, it ought to be interesting to see what happens.
Oh, I know, and it pisses me off to no end.. soldiers living in barracks aren't even allowed to change their lightbulbs anymore, the most common things in life for them must be contracted out…. drives me batshit angry. I on the other hand think it needs to be reversed, completely, and we need to employ soldiers not currently in combat or direct training for said mission into their fields.. Engineers should be on the highways right now fixing potholes and repairing bridges, cooks should be learning how to actually cook again (and not watch some other guy heat a bag of food..), police need to embed with local agencies, as things like this would offer the training they no longer get, and better equip them for the workforce, while also getting things we as a nation need done, after all, we are already getting payed… sitting around waiting for formation, all day long, and then being told to do something last minute and then going home is ridiculous (this is actually what most soldiers do, it shouldn't be, but that is the truth of it.). I would much prefer a soldier in combat knowing what he is doing, and able to create a solution when available options are no good. In the same token, I would prefer them being able to actually perform as the man of the house and provide contributing support as a pillar of a community, or at the least get a decent job paying the same if not more.
Also, I really was interested in the stats you presented. Any chance of getting link to them?
I get most of my data from POS and sometimes small retail sample, and then compare that to figures posted by NPD and VGcharts.. (note, VG charts does get close, but sometimes they adjust retroactively for various reasons, such as, their initial figures for a time period often reflect more data from sold-in rather than the sold-through figures, which can throw it all off, and so they tend to adjust their figures closer once they confirm sold-through, or if the value is too great of a difference from NPD.). Honestly, the whole sold-in and sold-through values mess up many things and common people usually don't understand the difference, such as MSFT's claim of vaguely stating over 5 million units "sold" of xb1, when the reality is barely 1/4 of that was actually sold to a user and those 5 million figures are nothing more than shipped to retailer.
Anywho, back to data, POS are generally public data, and you can view for many major retailers. Being a retailer myself gives me a small perspective of this, and I often do compare my own data against that of the global and national norm.
haha, I know what you are looking at.. the ONE and only figure, in the 2013 ESA report.. too bad you didn't read the whole thing. That is stating THEN, that 63% of HOMES with dedicated gaming devices in the U.S. have PC's dedicated to gaming. (also.. in that same note, of those U.S. homes, 68% also have dedicated consoles…)..
also… haven you noticed how PC wasn't even counted in the latest report from the ESA??
here, let me help you with something simple.. here is the basic data any retailer knows, and anybody with fingers and a 50 IQ can find out:
Software sales by year
YR | PC | total
2005 | 569k | 49m
2006 | 558k | 141.5m
2007 | 2.9m | 325m
2008 | 5.8m | 584m
2009 | 6.1m | 576.6m
2010 | 15.7m | 630.5m
2011 | 29.6m | 608.5m
2012 |32.8m | 471.3m
2013 | 27.5m | 462.5m
now… take note.. of all the software sold, globally (games…) PC sold 27.5 million units for 2013. That is out of a total of 462.5 million units of software FOR ALL PLATFORMS.
now.. since I don't have a crayon here, try to hold on while I walk you through simple math. out of that 462.5 million, how much is 27.5 million? the equation would go something like:
now.. to take a number, like the one above (which has been rounded) 0.059, and turn it into a percent, you could do some silly stuff, or simply move the decimal (that is the dot, or period ".") and move it TWO places to the right. When you do this, you should see 5.9, this is the percent, which will now be written as 5.9%
SOOOO, of all of 2013, the PC industry accounted for only 5.9% of all game sales… (btw, that is including silly tricks like counting dlc purchases and "ftp" games…). I wonder.. if PC gaming is SOOOOO prominent in homes and among gamers….. how is it they account for such a LOW percentage of total global game sales????
If you can manage to wrap that around your head, then perhaps there is hope for you, and you can start reading those reports by the ESA without misunderstanding them, or taking figures out of context, and possibly arrive at the very real conclusion that PC gaming, though it has "grown" (when accounted by itself, not compared to the total market or population saturation) it is still a very SMALL slice of the whole pie.
jim moore
You said it well Mirimont
jim moore
Good point Mirimopnt
Just because people got smarter and stopped buying pre-built crop from Dell and hp doesn't mean the desktop is dying. Look at the sales for amd and Nvidia and you will see an increase that tromps the sales of Consoles. If anything Microsoft needs to just sell off its Xbox division and focus on pc gaming. Where the developers can work on the newest hardware and Constantly show growth. Not sit put on the same hardware for a decade before upgrading to the next 720p console they release in 2023.
While we might not be at 4k gaming with current hardware being available to the mass market. It is inevitably coming and very Soon. We're starting to see 4k sets rolling at with the power to push 60hz while the price keeps tumbling lower and lower to the point it's affordable for most consumers. We have cards that will be coming soon that will lower the power requirements, get smaller in there physical size, and be capable of running 4k at 60fps without much issue.
So with all of this heading our way in the next 1-2 years why sink an investment of $400-$500 on a Console that runs resolutions from over a decade ago? VR will make a huge presence next year and the consoles will again be just sitting on there hands wishing they could join the revolution but too busy capitalizing on those too uninformed to make a smart decision on where the future is taking us.
I can't really blame the uninformed for there decisions. the best tech doesn't get the spotlight and advertisements on every bag of doritos and every bottle of soda, prime time slots on the most watched shows have console smut plastered in front of the user for 15 minutes every hour so how would these people know any different to make a good choice in hardware we they are only exposed to the 2 brand names that pour billions Into brainwashing people into thinking there is nothing better than there product?
VR will make a huge presence next year? at $300 and in this economy, they are going to have to do better than that.
I won't have an issue grabbing mine. Maybe you should look at selling your food stamps or become a scrapper for a month so you can get yours phobos?
I spend my money carefully and not in novelty garbage, it must be fun to have your pappy buys you everything.
Already called you out on this before phobos I offered proof I own my hous and everything I have. Your the one that backed off from the he challenge and made excuses not to put up. So shut up! Go fix you some Ramen noodles and enjoy dinner!
Proof? Any idiot can post a picture of a house and call it its own. What's next? You want me to give you my phone number, my drivers license? Get real if you can. Let's face it by the looks of your profile pic, you work at burger king, where is my whopper?
Because immersive virtual reality at $300 is far to much to pay compared to $400 for last generation quality 720p consoles right?
Immersive virtual reality, hilarious. But for $300 I much rather get a 27in monitor, more screen to see.
Sam Cerulean
He's right, VR will probably become just like mobile phones in the sense that they were once a weird gimmick that was socially akward, now nearly everyone one has one.
I understand people can look really stupid in them, but $300 to experience games and movies in a completely different way than before is a bargain in my opinion.. and most people haven't tried 3D Gamign lol before you try slip that in there. I think these things will sell like hot cakes just for the novelty. What I'm interested in is how well these hot cakes will keep people interested in VR for the long term…. I think Oculus is really going to kick start the VR/AR revolution in terms of the amount of developers making things for these kind of devices.
I am interested too, to know how long it will keep people interested. For I feel they might have the same end as the steering wheel or the joystick. They are still around and dirt cheap but meh.
http://www.mrseb.co.uk/ Sebastian Anthony
I'm not going to get into an argument about whether the desktop is dying or not. Yes, the desktop PC will be around for MANY YEARS TO COME. No, it will not be the key driving force in the computing market.
PC sales are already dwarfed by smartphones and tablets. That gap will only widen as PC sales continue to shrink and mobile computing grows.
Well since most pc/console owners own a tablet/phone along side there pc and the fact that a phone is almost a necessity obviously there are going to be higher sales for them.
Your comment makes as much sense as saying back in the 90's there were more people with home phones than computers. Obviously people will need a means to communicate on the go you can't exactly drag a pc around with you everywhere you go to make a phone call.
Pc is still the best way to game, has the best hardware and the cheapest prices. It is still needed by million for work. Working on tablet/phone is not something that I see ever happening.
Sam Cerulean
I completely agree on all your stances here, Consoles are made for stupid people that can't figure out to use a PC and for partial gamers that probably barely finish games and only play a small selection of games when they've got nothing better to do.
PC has always been innovative because the demands of PC Gamers are much higher. In my eyes the console model doesn't even serve a purpose anymore.
Intelligent ones pick and choose their battles. The war is what is important. Stand hard and fast on every minor belief or idea you have and see how lonely you become.
All the start screen ended up doing was pissing off desktop customers while their mobile marketshare stagnates.
That's the Microsoft I know… Is this any "sadder" than Microsoft essentially copying OSX with Vista and instead of "Widgets" calling them "Gadgets"? I mean they've been full of dead giveaways of copying others for decades.
Sad wouldn't be my choice of words. In a way it's unfair to criticize them for lack of innovation, because super-rich large companies almost always become stagnant and risk averse. Look at Apple. Not exactly pushing the envelope so much any more. A phablet phone? Yep, pretty much a page out of Samsung's book.
Anyway, yeah, MS stepped out with a "bold" vision. But it was a greed filled vision, not a vision of innovation. They dared to dream of a day where everyone was beheld to MS forever and ever to gain access to their own content in their living room. That's not so much vision as it is simple greed. The DRM wasn't visionary. It was used game blocking, as was feared for so long. The family sharing was a reactionary addition, not even fully baked, to make the pill go down better. I don't believe they had any notion, ever, of offering ten games for the price of one, until people started squawking about the DRM.
I don't think a better Kinect was visionary either. Reminds me of that Robot Chicken sketch: "Oh oh oh, just build another one? Real f'ing original!!" Voice activation pushed things forward a little bit. I'll give some credit there. Just an F for implementation, not realizing that some people don't want an always on camera/mic in their living room and then be told that it's so integral it can't be disconnected (even though they later admit it can).
I will say, they've now addressed two of my key issues though. I can't take that away from them, just that it took a long time for them to do it. It's moved back into the "I'll consider it when I have the money" category.
Completely agree with you on this. Everyone they wanted to do before the reversals, even with Kinect 2, was just plain stupid. They were never going to let people pay for one game and get 9 free and then be able to share it. That was bull.
Rick Brumfield
Kinect was really my last battle with the XB1. I am an XB player, prefer the games, prefer the controller, but hated the idea I had to buy a peripheral I might never use (still hate they only use it as a game interface when it is SO much more – mocap, os interface, Interactive whiteboard, etc). Now I might just have to look at getting one for the holidays.
Well jobs openly admitted to copying Microsoft on many points. I suggest you watch the short documentary "everything is a remix" it shows that there are rarely ever any ideas that are original and most are just copied from someone else's work then made to look slightly different. As far as the gadgets go hell I don't think I've ever even seen anyone using them. Personally is rainmeter for widgets / gadgets.
Well, if you really want to go down that rabbit hole, I do agree, most things are a remix. The original Apple "GUI" was "copied" from Xerox. Almost any new idea can be traced to some variant before.
But if you take that perspective, everything becomes a blurry mess and you cannot discern companies that do offer innovation vs those who rehash stale ideas. I'm no Apple fan. But the wheel interface was not something that you saw much before other than thermostats, lol. And iPhone was new for mobile phones. There's a difference between Apple making the iPhone and MS making "tiles" to go on Nokia devices (both being waaaaay late to the party). I'm sure you can agree at least on that point. It may not be easy to quantify, but most people can see the difference.
Most of what MS does appears to be a blatant copy, with little that's fresh, and the things that are fresh are more on the back end that appeal to corporate buyers. For example NT, was actually an amazing piece of work. But the interface was essentially the same to users. The only "new" part was under the hood.
The difference between Apple and the rest, is hype and good solid marketing.
Family sharing was a 60 minute timed demo, publishers would NEVER agree to one person buying 1 game then giving away 10 copies for free.
Now the average price of consoles is lower, what it means to Nintendo's Wii U and what to AMD?
More hard-hitting, unbiased journalism. So MS gets crap if they stick to their guns, and they get crap when they listen to what consumers want. Looks like the tech world's favorite punching bag is still good for for a few more blows.
when you have nothing to offer but crap in either case, you pretty much get more crap…
Thanks for the deep, intellectual discussion. I like how your comment really dug deep into the issue and took a detailed look at all sides of the issue. It's always refreshing to read objective, unbiased dialogue that isn't clouded with irrational personal flavoring. It proves that adults really do read and post in here.
you are welcome, if there is anything else you would like summarized into simple four letter words or phrases the common folk might understand, don't hesitate to ask, after all, I am all about the truth.
For those who didn't get it, the initial offerings of the xb1, from MSFT, were crap, even after much dancing about it is, and will still be crap, so no matter how they come out with it, they will get nothing but crap back from the general community.
that's a cute E30 btw….
Fair enough. I disagree that it is "terrible" but they should have either stuck to their guns or launched with what they have just changed to now. Consumers are getting a bit of a mixed message. I personally have not bought either console since I am a PC guy (PC master race checking in).
And thanks. The E30 is lots of fun, especially with the completely custom engine I had build for it. 205bhp 2.1L I4 with an 8000RPM red line in a 2500lb car…good times for sure. Cars…the ultimate time and money sinks!
nice.. track day for pink slips? I still have a tesla roadster sitting around.
No, no races for pinks. I'm more of an autoX guy myself since I don't really want this car in a situation where it can get wrecked. Besides, the Roadster is a hell of a machine and I might as well hand the title to you without even setting foot into the car! My little E30 project is fun, but it is definitely not on-par with a modern sports car. Even still, I have a soft spot for old German steel.
ah.. have you ever taken advantage of the programs offered by Audi? they fly you in, book you in as hotel, build the car you want, and ship it back, all under the price tag.. I don't mind taking a detour or two to Belgium for the best beer in the world…
I have thought about the programs that Audi & BMW offer and might take them up on those someday. Someday…someday.
jim moore
Funny Funny Funny Mirimont.
jim moore
Thats funny Mirimont
jim moore
Being nice to people as usual Mirimont
jim moore
Nice comeback Miriomont
MS is a joke. We told them their Xbox One, their Win Phone and Win 8 sucked on release. They didnt listen. They and fanboys like you kept going on and on about some garbage. Then they turned Win 8 into the way we want (start menu returns in next update). They completely changed everything about Xbox. Now the latest is this.
If you want a pat on your back for listening to customers, then try actually FUCKING listening to customers.
They "admitted defeat" because of their constant claims that Kinect wasn't going to be unbundled, and the army of angry fanboys hissing and spitting at anyone who said it should or will eventually be unbundled.
Jim Dawkins
I do commend Microsoft these days for actually listening to their customers pleas instead of ignoring them. At least they are starting to do it.
Vance Goober
Commend is sort of a strong word here, don't you think? It's like saying I commend the person at McDonalds for getting my order right on the second attempt, after screwing up the first.
And I'm not trying to nitpick, but I am in order to make a broader point, they aren't listening so much to "customers" as they are those who are currently refusing to be customers. Select divisions in MS listen only when they are in trouble, which is more of a natural survival instinct than something to be commended. Then they go back to not listening when they aren't running scared anymore.
Sure it's better than being told to deal with it, like before, but it's hard for me to give accolades for doing what they should have done in the first place.
http://www.something.com/ standard
Early adopters just got xboned?
lol, no
Think they wanted to be net neutral,and not hardcode their offerings. The simplicity of gaming to an Internet hook-up. The complexity,not needing a game console. And xml code to do the same thing.
I've never done the game console thing. But I remember most shops shutting down most pc computer software or thinning,or eliminating it so that consoles could take the place of what was on the shelf.
Suppose that console gaming is more or less , .. less complicated than the sometimes inconsistent computer installs. Console games too, are those touchy feeling easy to stuff in a corner that nobody would notice. Then would have to ask about if they had company over and saw it under the tv screen.
Better with marshmellows. Only got so much equipment to destroy I suppose. However it is much about how retailers market the consoles if they are succesful at times.
A little bit too tale for that, the damage has been done.
I was more suggesting that Windows 7 is a fine desktop OS — and with a few licks of paint would continue to be so for many years to come. http://goo.gl/emYxTI
Ray C
I don't like the idea, but I must say I'm not surprised to see the article titled that way on this site
I feel like without kinect It should be no more than 379.99, if for only the fact of requiring batteries for the controller. I own both new systems and have to say the graphical power difference is irrelevant to me, but if MS wants to "catch up," they need to beat the price not meet it.
I second this motion.. coming on line with price point will not win it over, they have to at least match if not beat the competition in features and capability to demand the same price.
jim moore
Good second Mirimont.
Wii U 250/~0.60 TF $416/TF (approximate)
Xbox One 500/1.28 TF $390/TF
Xbox One 300/1.28 TF $234.37/TF
Price/performance. Xbox One at $500 and 1.28 teraflops is $390.62/TF, PS4 at $400 and 1.84TF is $217.39/TF. Xbox would have to be sold at about $275 to match PS4's price/TF.
While I agree that the ps4 has more GPU hp, your figures are based on preproduction Xbox one GPU speeds. Additionally, the Xbox one has greater CPU performance. Also, raw theoretical performance isn't the end of the story. You have to take into account OS overhead, which MS has had decades with x86. When you quantify your purchases on raw figures instead of actual experience, you may miss out on some of what you truly enjoy.
Vance Goober
I would expect OS overhead to be quite hefty on Xbone since they have 3 separate OS's. Also, if we are being nitpicky, some of that processing power is (or was) allocated to Kinect and not available for other tasks, which is why MS bumped up the clock rate in the first place.
FYI. Ps4 has more OS overhead than Xbox one. FYI. Xbox one CPU clock rate wasn't bumped, only GPU clock. FYI. I have both since day one. Not a particular fan of either. Also not a fan of misinformation, hence my original post and all subsequent posts.
Vance Goober
Wrong. If you are a fan of correct info, then you will admit being wrong:
I also wasn't specifically referring to just the memory footprint as "OS overhead". It's widely documented that Kinect stole about 10% of CPU resources just being on. I know that's supposedly being reduced or has been already. I'm also talking about how virtualization of multiple OS can also use additional CPU cycles that otherwise wouldn't be required. There's pros and cons to virtualization. Reduced total CPU usage isn't usually one of the pros. Lastly I didn't compare to PS4. You did.
Really? OK guy. So what part is wrong in my comment? Seems like someone is butthurt.
Vance Goober
This, oh butthurt, "don't correct me" guy, lol:
CPU clock rate wasn't bumped, only GPU clock.
So either you are wrong and will wiggle around trying to make a wrong statement right, or you are a "fan of correct info" and admit you were wrong about the CPU clockrate not being increased.
Over to you.
You implied they raised clocks as a result of allocation to the kinect. The kinect was always there.
Vance Goober
True. Kinect was always there. However you are reading more into my implication than what was there. I was not saying they suddenly added Kinect after E3 and then said, "oh where is that going to come from, maybe we need to increase the clock rate…" Just that after E3 it was then understood by the public that both had similar, almost identical specs, yet Xbone had allocated resources to Kinect that Sony didn't have, which put MS at a net negative. So increasing was in reaction to the perceived inadequacy. I just happen to believe "Kinect" was *part* of that discussion at Redmond, but we can disagree over the exact list of reasons.
I'll correct one thing that was technically wrong in my second statement which was hastily typed. Kinect steals from GPU, not CPU. My first post spoke of overall processing requirements and did not call out either CPU or GPU for being increased, but both were in fact increased though. Maybe that is enough of an olive branch to point out we both had a few technical errors in our posts.
You assumed Xbox ones Is overhead is high, which you are correct however it is lower send the competitions OS overhead
fyi.. you are WRONG….. in every regard…. XB1's OS overhead is much greater (aside from kinect's drainage)…
fyi, msft bumped the gpu, sure, because the yield was poor enough to make it non-functional.
fyi- the proc speeds on the ps4 in operation are actually closer to 2ghz and above….
fyi.. sony has no thermal issues……(thanks to nearly 3/4 of a century making tech in compact sizes…..)
for not being a fan of misinformation, you sure seem to wave a lot of it around and paint it on your face……
M sure your parents are proud. Now I know why I rarely comment. Ignorance must be wonderful.
cool.. so in this world you think facts and ignorance are the same??? yes.. my parents would be proud to know I have a modicum of understanding basic definitions of everyday words…. you are only hurting yourself here you know….
jim moore
You are always right Mirimont.
jim moore
Someone else who's wrong Mirimont?
The pay wall should have been dumped long ago. Let's face it – MS had to do SOMETHING – and when I say this, I speak for ALL of the decisions they've made. With as much rage as there was on the internet when details of the XBOX ONE first came out, had they not changed their policies, I wonder how many more XBOX ONE's would've sat on store shelves? If they felt that unbundling the console from the Kinect was the way to sell more consoles in the short term, then that's what they had to do. At $399, I might bite – not right away, but at least I know I'll have the option.
Of course, expect the stand alone Kinect to cost $149-$179 – and this will fall right into Microsoft's hands, because for the person undecided as to whether they should buy it with or without Kinect (and I'm sure there are plenty of people who will ponder the thought), the bundle will always be the one that makes "more economical" sense.
Yet another copy of Sony's policy. They know they can't compete with
PS4 and so they had to copy lol. I swear of God, ever since the
released of PS4…Microsoft has been copying Sony's policies….from the
used games policy to internet not having it on all the time…and now removing the Kinect cam to sell at a cheaper price lol….i mean c'mon Microsoft where is the VISION??…can't you be fcking original for once?
Ah and Sony has copied MS and requires a paid service to play online now. Sony is losing value and MS is increasing.
copied??, haha.. that's cute… xbl pales in comparison, hence, why it has over 9 times more users than XBL… wtf copies from something losing 1 million active accounts per month??
Fanboy= roots for his brand-name of choice regardless of how bad it is actually doing.
Gamer= concedes one product may be better than the other, and rather than limiting his experience decides to get a product based on logic and reasoning.
How's life in microsoft fanboy bizarro world?
This will not persuade me to buy Xbox One. The ONLY way I will buy it is if somehow Microsoft took over Nintendo's software. This will be incredibly tempting not to buy Xbox One…imagine Mario and other games coming to Xbox One.
I rag on m$ because they behave in the marketplace like a spoiled rich kid brat that has no experience with the real world because they have never lived in it.
The Strong Arm
Finally, m=Microsoft has submitted to the fact that they cant go against the grain and win. Personally I have a Xbox One, and I never use the Kinect
The +$100 price point was killing them. I just wish the justification for the price gap was because they went with a better GPU solution…. People want to blame Kinect and the always on controversy…. I would venture to say most gamers are well aware of the performance gap between the platforms at this point and that's what is driving the low adoption rate. Maybe the other stuff hurt them out of the gate, but they are basically SOL at this point because of their GPU choice.
Thank god i got one early
scott patterson
Still not low enough. The PS4 is superior at the same price point.
Vance Goober
I doubt it will stay at $400 for long. They've already set the precedent of selling it with Kinect and a game for $450. Take away Kinect and the game and price it at $400 and suddenly you are being ripped off by comparison.
This is a mistake. The Kinect is what sets the XB1 apart. They should have stayed the course and focused on developing it's capability.
meh.. it's not the kinect that sets it apart, it's the huge difference in hardware and performance, the level of support, the online services and community, and of course, the policies….. all of which are better on PS4 and PSN…
jim moore
You know best Mirimont
Bundling Kinect was a poor business decision that lost MS sales and money.
Vance Goober
People act as though MS is throwing it in the trash and coming into your homes to confiscate any remaining units. If you really feel that way about Kinect, you can continue to use yours. This simply gives people like myself who have zero interest in the Kinect and resent having to buy something I know I have no interest in, the option to buy Xbone without it. And maybe later, if I find $100 burning a hole in my pocket, maybe I might eventually get Kinect anyway.
I think they are going to great lengths to clarify they will continue to invest in developing it's capability.
But I have a feeling, MS is going to play the sour-grapes card on this anyway, and undercut this "bundle", sort of like they did when they took away the DRM and let everyone know, they would now be losing family sharing too for daring to complain about the DRM on disk based games. Either they will price the Kinect separately for a very high premium, like $150+, or they will price the Kinect bundle to be a little over $400 and with a game, so that it would be absurd to not get the bundle. And they will feel all smug like they did when they told everyone to go buy a 360 if you didn't like online check-ins.
Tham Chan Seng
This is really sad…I was hoping MS will continue to push for advanced technologies, such as TOF, Speech Recognition, etc….to all families…..
Now that the Xbox One is just another gaming console, so what is the innovation? None….faster, more RAM, higher graphics performance…no new innovation….
MS removed the Kinect will actually make Xbox One doom faster. Now, there is no reason why one will buy Xbox One. None….
Speed – PS4 wins
Graphics – PS4 wins
Price – PS4 wins
Innovation – without Kinect, tie
noe of what you said was an innovation, and none of it by MSFT.. NONE..
ToF been around since before there was an xbox… sae goes with voice recognition.. it really isn't all that "advanced" (also, if you knew what ToF was, you would know it's very low resolution, in order to obtain serviceable resolutions for game interactivity a massive amount of scanning and post processing is required, hence, why the kinect 2.0 is still the most inaccurate and lag inducing of motion control schemes on consoles.) Those are not innovations…
furthermore.. without kinect, the xbox one has NO voice control… wierd.. the PS4 still has it without a camera… o.O..
jim moore
You sure are smart Mirimont. I wish I could be like you Mirimont.
That's funny, most people expect Xbox sales to INCREASE by unbundling kinect.
Tham Chan Seng
That is what many people thinks!
They thought it is the Kinect that kill Xbox sales. But it is the other way round.
The main issue why Xbox One is not selling as good as PS4 is the performance issue. Xbox One with or without Kinect still cannot output high resolution graphics with high frame rate, this is what most hardcore gamers reluctant to buy Xbox One.
It's price and performance.
Wii U 250/~0.60 TF $416/TF (approximate)
Xbox One 500/1.28 TF $390/TF
Xbox One 300/1.28 TF $234.37/TF
Price/performance. Xbox One at $500 and 1.28 teraflops is $390.62/TF, PS4 at $400 and 1.84TF is $217.39/TF. Xbox would have to be sold at about $275 to match PS4's price/TF.
Tham Chan Seng
However, even if Xbox One selling at $275, it still cannot catch up because it can't output 1080P where PS4 can!
A hardcore gamer doesnt mind to spend additional $100 for the extra performance. Do note one will usually buy a console that will last for at least 5 years. So he/she will carefully evaluate the performance of the console for long term.
Since so many people and journalists mentioned Xbox One can't output 1080P for the same game where PS4 can, and PS4 can view at high frame rate. Hardcore gamers then will no doubt hesitate to buy Xbox One because of the fear that Xbox One will not last long.
Xbox One with Kinect still can attract non hardcore gamers, eg, casual players, families, etc, but now without Kinect, developers won't support Kinect, so these casual gamers won't buy anymore.
I in fact planing to buy Xbox One and the hesitation is because there is so few good Kinect games for Xbox One. Now that MS drop the compulsory Kinect, it also make my decision even harder.
Why I or anyone want to buy Xbox One now? Give me reasons?
Vance Goober
I think you are misreading the article. It will be sold 1) with Kinect for the usual price and 2) without Kinect for $399.
So all your arguments about people not buying it now because they want Kinect are flawed. They can still buy it with Kinect. And if price is an issue, they can wait a year and get the second manufacturing spin which has a reduced core price.
No one said MS is dropping any investment into Kinect games. Just because people are forced to buy it today doesn't mean they will buy a Kinect game. The reverse is true as well. People who want to buy Kinect games can still buy Kinect or the Kinect bundle.
The logic mistake people keep making is that assuming mandatory Kinect means everyone has Kinect and devs can now use it. But that's never been true at all…..PS4, PC, Wii U users don't have Kinect, so multiplats are in the same boat as they always have been , which is some have it, some don't. Exclusives today also have to cater to those who have Kinect but don't want to use it. So there's no net change in the focus that devs can put on Kinect or not, regardless of whether MS de-bundles it or not.
Someone should make a Microsoft x-boner parody of Billy Squire's Stroke. "back stroke back stroke….STROKE….STROKE"!!! DA DAAAA
Robert W. Burnham
It's not a defeat for Microsoft. It's just a retooling. They gave their initial vision a shot, and the system didn't sell as well as the PS4, so they're rethinking things a little bit. Credit to them for turning things around relatively quickly, although I still wouldn't own either new system as they are now, mainly because there are still a lot of quality titles on the previous generation consoles.
they have more than 60% less market penetration than the xbox 360 did, and THAT only really sold in middle America…
jim moore
Is that true Mirimont.
Daniel Revas
I don't want to gloat, I really don't…oh Hell yes I do. Too many MS Fanboys, including certain Tech Writers who may contribute here, have tried to insist that MS had nothing to worry about with the XBONE's sagging sales and production cutbacks.
As it turns out, yes they did.
Dennis Barr
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that Microsoft is a follower, or even more strongly, a panderer, that fails to have the strength of its convictions in just about any realm.
They innovated a new user interface for Windows Phone. What's the market share now, worldwide, for Windows Phone?
They copied that UI to Windows 8. Now, they're preparing to bring back the Start menu. They named the new UI Metro. Then it was Modern. Now it's meh…
They created a singular vision for the future of console gaming. Now, we're going to have what amounts to XBox 360 2.0 – or is that 1.5?
In what looks like the latest episode of their slide into irrelevance, I feel betrayed by a company that seems to have found a new footing and a reinvigorated sense of purpose but now is the company of "woulda-coulda-shoulda. How pathetic.
you forgot the Zune…
hardware really isn't their forte… except for the Surface Pro.. which should be selling much better than it is..
jim moore
Your right again Mirimont.
http://marcelbrown.com/ Marcel Brown
Why should the Surface Pro be selling better than it is? It's over twice the price of an iPad and a few hundred dollars more than a MacBook Air. Plus it runs Windows 8 and most people are not happy with Windows 8. Consumers don't care and IT departments are ambivalent. Not a good combo. I've actually recommended the Surface Pro 2 to some clients and they've decided to wait because of price.
odd.. can get a surface pro for $430 at my store…
lets talk about the difference, what do you get with an Ipad?? a tablet.. that's it.. and sure, there are a ton of apps you can get in an attempt to bring it into the same realm as the capabilities of the surface pro, but only after spending a ton of money on said apps and accessories, rapidly making it cost more, while still underperforming.
Macbook air: EXACT same price as a brand new surface pro 2…..but not touch screen… and since it is likely that we are talking about the American region.. again, it's a MAC, while support for mac has increased, this is simply not a mac friendly region in terms of use.
Yes, it does run win 8, and most people aren't happy with that, but that is because it as an OS is meant for touch screen devices and not their normal laptop/desktop pc use, it is at home on the surface pro.
It should be selling more because at the same price of even your precious macbook air, you get the power of a PC but in a cute, 10″, tablet form. Not restricted by a lesser supported OS, not restricted to silly tablet apps, etc.
Sure, they could sell it for less, but MSFT is already taking a hit leaking money in the xbox and phone products atm. And.. unlike all of MSFT's previous hardware, the Surface products are solid, and do not suffer the same durability issues such as the atrocious failure rates. The one honestly good product they have made… and people don't buy it? It almost makes the market seem like it prefers to purchase broken stuff more than operational stuff….
http://marcelbrown.com/ Marcel Brown
The current model Surface Pro 2 starts at $900. Practically speaking, you've got to add a keyboard to it so it is almost $1000 right off the bat.
We can talk all day long about technical specifications, "features", and "performance", but that isn't the point. We people who are more tech savvy may appreciate all that jazz, but the average consumer could care less. They value different things, such as ease-of-use and reliability. For all the things you say about iOS being less capable and "silly", it does more than enough for average people to be productive with an iPad. In fact, less is more when it comes to people who just want things to work simply and effectively. Why do they want a keyboard that just adds weight and complexity? Why do they want a stylus when fingers work just as well 99% of the time? Why do they want all those ports when they almost never use them anyway?
The problem with the Surface is that Microsoft is trying to shoehorn the old desktop paradigm into today's mobile device market. People who use tablets aren't looking for a laptop. They want a simple, handy device without a lot of fuss. The Surface is basically a laptop with some tablet features. While it may be the best product Microsoft makes, and it is probably one of the best Windows 8 tablet/laptop hybrids out there, it isn't what the market wants. The market either wants a real tablet or a less expensive laptop. Or they want something non-Microsoft.
The reality is that the market has changed. In the Old World of Technology, most purchase decisions were initiated by IT departments. In the New World of Technology, consumers are the driving force. Until technology companies "get" this fact, they won't be making products that match the expectations of this new market. And they'll continue to not sell, even if we techie-types think they should be selling better.
"The problem with the Surface is that Microsoft is trying to shoehorn the old desktop paradigm into today's mobile device market"
Yes. Exactly. And their commercials really highlight this point, by highlighting the keyboard as a competitive advantage over the iPad.
http://marcelbrown.com/ Marcel Brown
Right! And I'm thinking to myself the whole time that if people really wanted keyboards with their tablets, why are iPads selling so well? Microsoft misses the irony that their entire strategy for success depends on a technology from the 1950's. Removing the keyboard from tablets was a step forward and they want to go backwards. Obviously, we see the results of that flawed strategy.
jim moore2
Microsoft also has a very short memory about failed similar ideas. I seem to recall both "tablets" and "super small laptops" existing before. The old tablet was extremely bulky and had a light pen or similar type of stylus device. I only saw them in use in hospitals. I never once saw a consumer with one. The old "super small laptop" with keyboard, I believe that was once called a palmtop? Well those didn't do so well either. I saw maybe 2 in the wild, ever. Now, before anyone points it out, yeah, I know there's very little resemblance between that device and the current tablet+keyboard format, but the point is, something that looked like a laptop from it's generation, acted like a laptop from its generation but was just super small has already been tried and it failed miserably. The only reason I'm reminded of that device is because the way MS shows the screen propped up with a tiny keyboard off the front of it.
You might point to any number of causes, such as the OS wasn't touch screen, and maybe you'd be right. You'd also be right to point out that the difference between success and failure is often some small seemingly minor detail that one company overlooked and the other paid attention to.
And sometimes, it's a failure to explain to the public why this is something you would like. All I get from the MS commercials is that:
1) this is cheap (a pro actually is not, so it's misleading and you are probably going to get pissed if you go to a store to buy a cheap tablet device just to find the version you actually want is more expensive than the iPad)
2) it has a keyboard!!!
3) it runs the same OS you hate on your laptop/desktop
4) Siri is stupid (and let the irony sink in for a moment….hint, this is an article about Xbone)
5) some fat f'ing hipster teacher thinks his kids love the Surface he gave them when we all know they wish they had an iPad instead, lol.
6) MS is not nearly as imaginative or hip when it comes to picking songs to go with their commercials ;-)
http://marcelbrown.com/ Marcel Brown
Yeah, "I want to see you be brave" isn't exactly something that I'd want to tell my customers!
perhaps this is part of my own bias.. I tend to prefer versatility…, but I can understand the consumer trend, which they tend to buy what they think they want without any actual knowledge or experience with the product. That's not to say a consumer isn't against being informed, they simply tend to get w/e pops on TV the most, or what their friends talk about, good or bad, which is sad.
As for iOS, on it's face it isn't silly, it's just not very well to do here in the states for a majority of things (the Iphone and similar products actually helped bring their products back into public view after a long vacation.., I applaud them for the bridge gapping), I think both will be doing similar in terms of creating a single platform for multiple devices. I'm no MSFT shill, I usually despise their products and practices, But this one is more or less on spot, but too little too late imo.
I actually got my first surface form the VA, in lieu of an ipad, for school, LOVE IT specifically for my military/school/store owner/entertainment lifestyle, but then again, unlike many, we make the most of our stuff.
http://marcelbrown.com/ Marcel Brown
I understand the need for versatility. When the iPad first came out, I used it quite a bit more than my laptop. But I've gone back to using my laptop more and more. However, the iPad is still great when I'm doing certain tasks such as simple research and reading.
I tend to use my technology more extensively than most people, as it sounds like you do as well. But don't be too dismissive of what consumers are buying. Sure there are some people that will buy whatever is trending, but I think the popularity of the iPhone and iPad is strongly due to informed consumers. The difference is that while traditional personal computer technology required a lot more information to make a good buying choice, the simplicity and ease-of-use of the iPhone was a breakthrough for the average technology user. Literally they could pick up the device and understand how to use it almost immediately. It was so intuitive that anyone from 2 years old to 80 were able to make extensive use of the device without extensive training or help from an IT department. If you remember back in the first few years of the iPhone, Apple didn't really do much advertising, if at all in certain markets. They didn't need to as they couldn't really keep up with demand. They still don't do a whole lot of advertising, certainly not nearly as much as Samsung and the other guys. Most of Apple's success has been word of mouth and I think that speaks volumes.
The iPad rode the wave of the iPhone and I think even Apple was surprised just how well the iPad was accepted. They used to call the iPad a "third device" but now it seems clear that mobile devices are the "first device" and that traditional personal computers are no longer the commodity. I think this is actually good in the long run because the traditional personal computer market will begin to cater again to the market that really wants versatility, instead of catering to the mass market.
Jim Dawkins
Maybe they are finally "responding" to a majority of their customers instead of standing by their hubris and attempting to force things down the customers throat.
BIG "whoop"!!!
IT(Xbox 1)—isn't even worth 1/2 the now current "charge"(price drop) that Microsoft has deemed the public is now worthy of getting. PERIOD!!
If it couldn't sell with Kinect and Titanfall bundled in for basically less than a ps4 costs, it probably won't make a difference. I suppose some people will think it's a great deal. Sony should just knock $50 off the ps4
actually.. for the same price as a titanfall bundle then, you could get a KZ bundle, which comes with 2 controllers, AND the camera, and that game+ all the free games out the door when you initially connect online… and KZ:SF aint a bad game at all..
I don't care for competitive FPS games but I do like shadow fall online. People that say it sucks just haven't played it
jim moore
Mirimont knows the real truths.
You know, if they would just listen to their customers from the start, all this backpedaling wouldn't be necessary
jim moore
Anyone who must watch every comment in a article they have written, and then give a snide retort, wrote the article to antagonize people. There is nothing wrong with Microsoft wanting to compete at the same price point as Sony. Good move Microsoft. Bad article Sebastian as usual.
wait.. you assume it's a competition? sooooo much would have to happen for there to be a competition… this has been, thus far, a humiliating curb stomping….
the list of things that would have to change to even bring their platform on par with the leading system is massive, the things they would need to get an edge are staggering, and it's obvious the board of investors are tired of pumping money into the xbox label, which has only lost them $2billion annually for the better part of a decade.
jim moore
What are you talking about. I think you have way too much time on your hands. Do you ever read what you write. You are wrong in almost all of your comments (all 150 of them). You and Sebastian are buddies aren't you. Why is my comment being subject to your lame comments anyways.
just because what somebody says is different from your emotional bias does not make it any less the fact. I know you FEEL lie it's wrong, because it effects the perception you have to the emotional attachment for such a terrible product, for no other reason than because it's an Xbox in name.. You need to understand this one point.. I do not "hate" xbox as a label, I hate that they have made bad products under such a label and duped morons into purchasing them with aggressive and sleazy ad campaigns and strong-arming. I WANT the Xbox to be a good product, I WANT it to be honestly competitive, but it is neither. In order to sell the product for the same price as the "competition, it would have to come to the table with similar performance and feature sets if not better, which it is not and cannot do, let alone even fathom winning any of the generations of console wars against Sony (which it has yet to do as well).
It's one thing to simply say somebody is wrong… but without proof that statement will likely be ignored. And once you start digging up the truth about these products your view of the xbox platforms might be damaged (if you were an objective researcher rather than biased).. or, you can simply reply with the usual lack of proof and logic, or even toss in some defacto fanatic statements of vagueness with no backing in the face of actual facts…
it isn't me you are angry with, it is yourself, for being emotionally attached to a label leading to self-betrayal.
jim moore
I was not angry at anyone but I'm starting to become angry with you. Why would you just attack someone for no reason. Grow up and go away.
you are on the internet pal… everything you say and do here is up for judgment and retort. Why don't you grow up and figure this out already, if you don't like that people can disagree with what ever vomit comes out of your mouth, perhaps you should shut that flap and move on.
Have you tried religion?? I hear there you can say as you please under the guise of being a religious leader, and people have to simply accept it at face value and never question it with things like logic and reasoning.
jim moore
So being on the internet means I have to be subjected to rude pricks like you. Let me sign up then. I'm sure most people would agree that you truly are misinformed on most areas of life and technology. You might want to leave your house and go outside. There are other actual people out there. Some people out there may even be friendly. You probably do not know about that. Most Republicans don't. Have a good day and God bless.
Vance Goober
From looking at your history of comments to other people, implying they are idiots for not liking Win8, etc., it seems that Mirimon simply gave you a dose of your own medicine and you are throwing an Internet tantrum in response. When you are a shill for Microsoft and the Democrat party, people will treat you as less than a "friendly person". Stop being a shill and you might find people treat you with more respect online.
Now go ahead and reply to all my comments too, lol.
jim moore
Vance is Mirimont. Go republicans No one cares what you think Mirimont.
jim moore2
shhh, meddle0ne. You'll give away that there's only two of us in here arguing under 50 different names ;-)
CMack .
I don't understand MS in this situation. Don't get me wrong, I think of the Kinect as a gimmick at most right now since there's virtually nothing that absolutely takes advantage of it. Having said that, one of the things that takes the most advantage of it is the XBOne's interface. The combination of gesture and voice navigation made it extremely easy to navigate through options as opposed to the normal controller input method. Now, unless they update their interface as well, those people who buy a new kinect-less XBone will be met with a clunky interface that was designed with voice/gestures in mind. I personally believe that MS would have benefited more by going the way of Nintendo, that is, by cutting the price tag of the Xbone without sacrificing the original vision and integrity of their console. Just like Big N did when the 3DS was faltering. They did not remove the 3D (gimmick) feature and even went as far as rewarding their early adopters with 10 (free) games. I am sure MS had enough funds to cover for a price cut since they still sell the XBOne at a profit.
on average it took a user 3 times longer to navigate to standard functions features and application than using a controller.
but yeah, the plan to remake the ui is already underway.
il never buy a xbox or anything from microsoft they wanna controll what you can do with it like apple
Travis Martinez
"Oh well. At least we can now buy a console that's functionally almost identical to the PS4, but with significantly weaker hardware, for $400. That's kind of a victory, I guess."
Jesus fucking christ, I don't even own either the PS4, Xbone, or WiiU but I can state without a shadow of a doubt that the hardware on the Xbone isn't "significantly weaker" unless you consider a small percentage as significant.
So much ignorance.
For the PS4 and Xbox One, Microsoft and Sony both opted for a semi-custom AMD APU — a 28nm part fabricated by TSMC that features an 8-core Jaguar CPU, paired with a Radeon 7000-series GPU and from that we can safely assume that the PS4 is very unlikely to be over 5% faster at processing at best!
So I'll put this in Layman's terms. The PS4 is slightly more powerful and both are the same price. There is no console war because the only things separating them are the OS and console exclusives, neither of which offer much in either department.
Then you add in the factor that games are $60+ tax each and you may as well just pay $400 on used PC parts and you can do the following to your current PC.
1. Upgrade your motherboard, Power Supply, and graphics card with good, used parts
2. Download/Install Steam
3. play one of the millions of games on PC via disc, digital distribution, or Emulators.
Now you have a machine that is backwards compatible, has little to no DRM, have access to mods, can pirate games (if your into that), and will only need to upgrade your GPU every 5 years and CPU every 7.
So if you get a mid-high grade GPU for $250 and a new processor for $200 your spending $450 total every 6 years average, 64 (a game with tax) x 7 (total games)=$448.
If you compare that to games on Steam or other similar sites you are getting a 50%+ discount compared to the same title on console which means if you buy more than 14 games every 6 years your wasting money doing console gaming.
Really though, if your a casual gamer and don't care about graphics your better off buying a used PS2 for $30 and calling it good, it's backwards compatible, has thousands of games, and has more exclusives and cheaper games than anything else.
Plus you won't be relying on Gakai servers and will own your games and also be able to play the entire library instead of the select popular titles that will be available for streaming.
But even then you may as well just get a clone PS2 controller for your PC, use Xpadder, and play your favorite games on a free emulator.
Sorry about rambling but I can't come up with a single reason to buy any new console besides the mediocre exclusives and if you think they are good enough to waste $500+ (including tax and game costs) then go ahead and be a moron.
The last Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo purchase I made was for a PSP half a decade ago, I hacked it up with an emulator and I can play hundreds of good old games on it while carrying it around in my pocket.
I'd take Zelda, every Pokemon game, MarioKart, Breath of Fire, Shin Megami Tensei games, Castlevania, Chrono Trigger, Doom, Advance Wars, Harvest Moon, Lego games, Mortal Kombat, Double Dragon, Sonic Spinball, Need for Speed, Golden Axe…
etc, over Knack, Killzone, Dead Rising, Forza, Infamous, Halo, etc.
especially when a used PSP is less than $80, you can even put porn on it. Look up how to hack your PSP on youtube if you'd like, you just need the chord that comes with the new ones for $3 and your set to play.
here is an article from this same site that is total hypocrisy. http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/156273-xbox-720-vs-ps4-vs-pc-how-the-hardware-specs-compare
Brand loyalty is retarded, be smart and take advantage of whatever edge you can get. The only "console" even worth buying in my eyes is the 3DS because of it's wide variety of games but even then it's like $150.
Build a PC for $600 or upgrade your current one gradually and buy a PSP for just under $100 and you can pirate everything and never have to spend a dime afterwards except for an upgrade every half-decade.
Then you can laugh at all the console gamers, and everyone with a 3DS/Vita because you'll have way more bang for your buck.
sorry, but ignorance is thinking the xb1 isn't substantially weaker than the ps4….especially when you don't even have the specs on said hardware right….you are operating on belief, not fact….leading me to believe you own MSFT hardware products and are actually a fanatic as nobody would simply stick their own neck out for something without knowing about it first.. you are are simply lacking in reading comprehension.
Travis Martinez
So you back your post up by calling me an ignorant Microsoft fanboy when I don't even own an Xbox 360 or Xbone but I do have an original Xbox in my closet boxed up from when I was a teenager.
If anything I'm more of a Nintendo/Sega fanboy than anything because I own all the Nintendo handhelds and have a Dreamcast (that I burn games for) and a genesis.
For the last decade I've almost fully gamed on PC with the exception of handhelds. So if that makes me a Microsoft fanboy then yeah sure whatever. Oh wait you might be right! I have windows as my operating system! I've been a Microsoft fanboy for as long as I can remember due to this I guess! But then again so is over half of the planet by that logic so I might be wrong.
And I think you are the one lacking in reading skills in general as you missed a link I posted which backs up my claim and has an actual comparison based on the parts inside instead of magic yet you post nothing of the sort.
They have the exact same architecture yet the PS4 has a mildly better GPU while the Xbone boasts a mildly better GPU. It's that simple. It's like comparing a $700 gaming PC to a $650 one at best.
The difference is very negligible and both consoles are pretty much trash in my eyes because they bring nothing new to the table that we haven't had for a few years now.
I'm going to go back and take some more Xbox fanatic drugs now while playing 24 hours of Halo followed up by fable and Forza OOOOH YEAAAAHHH!!!! Best games ever made! Move aside Civilization, Mega Man, Wild Arms, Shenmue, etc because Halo 4 is going to be the best game OF ALL TIME, OF ALL TIIIMEEEEE!!!!111
Okay, seriously. You must be a troll so I'm sure you feel happy about me wasting so much time replying to you and will consider it a victory just due to that but I don't care because it's my day off and I'm getting drunk.
sorry, but your own posts counter your other posts… you claim one thing, then the other…. perhaps I hit the nail on the head when calling you both ignorant and a fanboy, it's clear you have an agenda, and will do anything for the sale of your absurd argument.
go away, before you make things worse for yourself.
That article didn't support your claims though. It is mostly a mish-mash of equivocation, saying PS4 is much more powerful, but then "you won't see the difference". By that same logic, there should be no PC gamers because more powerful = "you can't tell the difference". But even ignoring the contradictions, the article does say things like this:
"To begin with, we would expect games on the PS4, with its beefier GPU and simpler memory subsystem, to be smoother and prettier. We have already seen this borne out by games such as Battlefield 4."
It then goes on to almost contradict this by predicting that most cross platform games will look similar, and you can presume from the closing sentence the explanation why, which is that multiplats tend to be limited by the lesser powerful console.
"PS4 exclusives that take full advantage of the console's superior hardware, though, such as masterpieces produced by Naughty Dog, will probably look significantly better than anything on the Xbox One."
The article didn't say anything about PS4 being "mildly better". It used terms like "beefier", "serious advantage", "a lot more", and "significantly". I see you not only lie about what you own and don't own, you can't read either. Here, let me prove my point by citing an article I didn't read and have no idea about. See, this link says PS4 is 10000000% more powerful:
No one is saying a PC can't beat either console, or that consoles are the savior of mankind. But if you are someone who wants to play games on consoles (there's nothing wrong with that, you know) then one console is clearly and significantly more powerful than the other. Even your article says as much. We are arguing Ford vs Chevy, and you are adding the *invaluable* contribution that your personal tuner car, a Misubishi Lancer, beats both. Overall, I tend to prefer PC gaming myself, for some things. But for other things, I do prefer a console.
How come you claimed owning a PS4 a couple weeks ago, and now you say you don't own one? I'm always puzzled by the people who change what they claim on a daily basis just to make the current post sound more credible.
new games will finally come to xb1.. some time in 2015..-2016, such as Halo, halo.. halo and halo….
but honestly, if you actually like halo, and think 343 will actually get it right for a change, then DON"T buy an xb1….you are only supporting a very isolated exclusivity concept.. rather, don't buy it ad force MSFT's hand, force them to publish to other, better platforms, such as PC…. then everybody wins…
Johnny bravo
here we go the new line of Xbox http://bit.ly/1i2EnFJ
nice way to keep the prices up longer, because even without, its not cheap and because itll be "new" the price wont drop for even longer, so they wont drop the price of the one with the kinect either, but sony will and can, so then theyll fall behind after everyone buys an xbox one without an kinect and realises the ps3 is now on 299 instead or less after xmas xD
i dont like the xbox, the original put me off most and the pads and the exclusive games, sony just tends to have what i want more, but the graphics i think are either equal or the xbox might even actually beat it here and there in games like cod ghosts i have to admit, saw comparions and cant deny it, but i will still be going with a ps4 and even a wiiU once they get super super cheap, just for mario kart, gota have something for the nephews when the visit haha