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Dolan on Gay Marriage
Eduardo Moisés Peñalver June 20, 2011 - 12:56pm
Archbishop Dolan's blog refused to take Father's Day off from the crusade against gay marriage. I applaud Dolan's embrace of blogging, and Dolan's posts have attracted a great deal of media attention, but I wish he would put more thought into his posts on this topic. I think it would be a much more powerful use of the medium, and would be helpful for those of us struggling to understand the Church's state of panic in the face of gay marriage, if he would engage in a more detailed way with the arguments on both sides of this issue. One searches his posts in vain for reasoned argument, finding instead a series of conclusory zingers like the one with which he finished up his most recent post. "Government presumes to redefine these sacred words at the peril of the common good." How does expanding the definition of the family to encompass same sex couples threaten the common good? Dolan doesn't tell us. His post simply ends.I looked back at his earlier post, and it also fails to adequately explain his views, except to tell us that the family is the foundation of our civilization and that tinkering with its definition is dangerous. I suppose I agree with both of those points, but neither one rules out same sex marriage. After all, the definition of marriage varies across time. Polygamy is approved in the Bible, though it is now illegal. Dolan doesn't discuss that, despite a reference to the authority of Genesis in his most recent post. Divorce used to be prohibited but no-fault divorce is now ubiquitous. Interracial marriage was legally forbidden in many US jurisdictions until just a generation ago. Now it is constitutionally protected. Telling us that revising the definition of the family is dangerous either means that all of these past changes were wrong or that, more likely, some were better than others. But if it means the latter, it adds nothing but a cautionary note to the present debate. It cannot be decisive.Indeed, Dolan himself can hardly make up his mind on the subject of marriage's meaning. In his two posts on the issue, he tells us that traditional definition of marriage is "timeless" and "as old as human reason and ordered good." And, yet, in these same two posts, separated by a mere four days, Dolan himself actually gives us, not one, but THREE different definitions of marriage. In his first post, he says that marriage is "one man, one woman, united in lifelong love and fidelity, hoping for children." His second definition, in the same post, is similar but not identical: "a loving, permanent, life-giving union to pro-create children." Finally, in his Father's Day post, he says that marriage is a "loving, faithful union between one man and one woman leading to a family."Of course, marriage has not been "lifelong" or "permanent" by law for a long time, and yet no blog posts urging NY legislators to (re)prohibit no-fault divorce as a grave threat to the common good have yet appeared on Dolan's blog. [UPDATE: By the way, no-fault divorce is actually a recent innovation in NY family law. While the Church opposed the change, during the debate, the director of the New York State Catholic Conference (which bills itself as the "official public policy voice of the Catholic Church") noted that [c]learly, not every marriage can be permanent."] Perhaps someone pointed this out after Dolan's first post, which might explain why he dropped any reference to duration in his most recent, timeless definition.As for procreation, "hoping for children" and "to pro-create children" are far from identical. Both might be read to rule out marriages among the non-fertile, though the "hoping for children" formulation is less exclusive on that front. But this leads to the question -- which is it to be? Does the marriage of two 80-year-olds threaten the timeless definition of marriage or undermine the common good? If not, why not? In his most recent definition, the reference to procreation is replaced by "leading to a family." This is circular, since legal recognition of same-sex couples as "families" would allow their unions to also "lead[] to a family." That's the whole point.These blog posts were useful opportunities for some thoughtful reflection on these questions, but the Archbishop chose instead to write unconvincing little screeds aimed at producing nice sound-bites for the press. Those who agree with him will no doubt take heart from his vocal opposition to New York's proposed legislation. For the rest of us, we are no better able to understand the foundation for his fears than we were before.
Commenting Guidelines
Bishop Dolan is only pointing out what should be obvious to all; that tinkering with one of the oldest building blocks of society is at best, very dangerous.What is the matter with people who think that in order to correct something, that they find it necessary to shred society from end-to-end?Certainly people should be taxed correctly; certainly we can and should update our property and finance laws so gay folks can properly tend to the practical matters of their lives. Nobody should want to make gay folks lives more tedious or difficult than they already are. However that does not mean we should stand by while some nimrod legislators tear down the foundation of human society.I am glad the Bishop spoke out regarding this important matter.
Archbishop Dolan: The sacred word father implies mother. God the Father. God the ________. Father John Corapi. ________ John Corapi. (Prior to June 17, 2011, that is.)
I presume Dolan is speaking to his flock, not trying to convince the New York Times editorial board. He's keeping it basic and simple, sticking to principle and tradition. If he were to stray into complexity, he'd just be confusing some readers and delighting others by providing them with words and numbers they could pick apart.From a civil-rights point of view - which seems to be the way most pro-gay-marriage proponents see it - Dolan doesn't have a leg to stand on, no matter what he says.
Ken, how does allowing civil marriage for gays "shred society from end to end" and "tear down the foundation of society"? Like Dolan, you're heavy on emotional language and missing specifics and argument.
The Bishop is practicing political rhetoric, not theology or philosophy--as is his wont. I am utterly unconvinced by the "building block of society" rhetoric myself, believing that the term marriage covers a multitude of arrangements across history and human geography. I think extending the concept and legal definition to include same-sex relations is quite a big deal, far more so that righting the wrong of miscegenation laws. And yet I am for it.It seems to me that America made it's choice about the sanctity of marriage as a divinely ordained covenantal relationship with God as a third and enveloping partner when it twice elected divorced Ronald Reagan and continued to nominate candidates who put aside one wife for another.
"Those who agree with him will no doubt take heart from his vocal opposition to New Yorks proposed legislation. For the rest of us, we are no better able to understand the foundation for his fears than we were before."Is it the message or the messenger that is really the problem here? Seems to me the real heart of the problem for this and the previous post on the bishops must be the message. The Church's position on gay marriage really isn't that big of a secret is it? I mean a quick Google search of the topic led to a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. What would somehow be clearer if Dolan had written a more artful blog post (which aren't, to be sure, intended to be law review articles) that isn't already clear from the Church's Social Teaching? Since the author is a law professor, a query: would a particular judge's inartful or confusing exposition in an opinion of the requirements for summary judgment or stare decisis somehow weaken those standards themselves? I doubt we would conclude so. Yet that seems to me to be the precise complaint here.I agree with the comment above: I admire Dolan (and the Church in general's) fortitude on this issue, but the battle has already been lost. Whether or not one has a valid or legitimate argument about preserving traditional marriage has been rendered irrelevant, as simply a mask for one's bigotry. See King & Spalding.
David Smith (and Ken):Does speaking to the flock give an Archbishop license to make silly arguments:
Last time I consulted an atlas, it is clear we are living in New York, in the United States of America not in China or North Korea. In those countries, government presumes daily to redefine rights, relationships, values, and natural law. There, communiqus from the government can dictate the size of families, who lives and who dies, and what the very definition of family and marriage means.But, please, not here! Our countrys founding principles speak of rights given by God, not invented by government, and certain noble values life, home, family, marriage, children, faith that are protected, not re-defined, by a state presuming omnipotence.
What's going on in New York is the consideration of a bill by the members of the democratically elected New York Senate and Assembly. There is no resemblance to China or North Korea.
And, what about other rights, like that of a child to be raised in a family with a mom and a dad?
41% of children in the United States are born out of wedlock.
Our beliefs should not be viewed as discrimination against homosexual people. The Church affirms the basic human rights of gay men and women, and the state has rightly changed many laws to offer these men and women hospital visitation rights, bereavement leave, death benefits, insurance benefits, and the like.
See my post on ReligiousLeftLaw.com. The Catholic Church has never approved any law to guarantee gay rights. It is opposed to such legislation in principle.
Mary Wow; Ok here goes. From the beginnings of organized culture thousands of years ago, the family has been the fundamental building block of society.On a basic level, societies started with families, that grew into clans, and ultimately into cities and states.Clearly then, family is important to society. As a logical matter then, undermining the family is not good for society.Gay marriage proponents are the ones asking that we allow them to change the definition of family, but they do not explain how our allowing them to change this eons-old definition will either be beneficial to the common good or a least show that it will be neutral toward it.You ask me how changing the definition of family to include gay marriage is bad for society, but you have it the wrong way round. As a proponent of changing something that has been in place for at least five thousand years, as a proponent of changing the status quo, it is your job to show how the change you propose is good for society.
Yes, Mary. The "shred society from end to end" language is a bridge too far, over the top, beyond the pale, etc. It seems to me that anarchists and radicals who would eliminate marriage as an institution of patriarchy would better deserve such charges than those who say, "I'll have what they're having."
Gay-marriage merely tinkers with the definition of family, involving a swap of partners in the parental pair bond. It leaves all other familial elements of sibling status, inter-generational ties, and nepotistic relations intact. Is is divorce and re-marriage that undermines families.
Gay marriage proponents are the ones asking that we allow them to change the definition of family . . . What is the definition of family and how is it going to be changed?On a basic level, societies started with families, that grew into clans, and ultimately into cities and states.I think you are making up anthropology. While I am not an expert, I would imagine societies started with groups first and families developed within those groups. But the early families and, in fact, families up until quite recently were not the "nuclear family" (husband, wife, and their children) but rather extended families. These did, of course, need men and women to reproduce, but they did not need "one man and one woman."I really think this "redefining the family" charge is nonsense. Suppose a young teenage daughter gets pregnant and a decision is made to keep the baby. Is her baby not part of the family? Does she need to marry the father of her baby and move out into a new house so there will be another family? I know that many existing families consider the partners of their gay members to be part of the family. Two unmarried lesbians, when one of them gives birth to a child, certainly constitute a family. Family does not mean a married man and woman and their biological children. Here are a couple of definitions from the Merriam-Webster Unabridged
3 a : a group of individuals living under one roof : HOUSEHOLD b : the body of persons who live in one house and under one head including parents, children, servants, and lodgers or boarders; specifically : a group of persons sharing a common dwelling and table considered for census purposes to include at one extreme a single person living alone and at the other the residents of a hotel or the inmates of a prison5 a : the basic biosocial unit in society having as its nucleus two or more adults living together and cooperating in the care and rearing of their own or adopted children b : one's children c : a male and female animal with their young
Was there no "family" in the old television show My Three Sons, with a father and grandfather raising three boys?
Try to look at it like this Mary.Lets imagine I want to lower the speed limit in my neighborhood, from 35 to 25 mph. How would I set about this?I would first ask my neighbors if they agreed and if my proposal seemed sound and reasonable. I would then put together some data to illustrate the status quo and the problems caused by the current speed limit. I would likewise need to gather data to show how the change would benefit not only the local neighborhood, but also how the reduced speed limit in that area would not adversely affect the city; that the overall affect would be neutral-to-positive.Finally, I would ask for time to present my case to the city governing board or council, and would make my presentation accordingly. If they accepted my proposal, fine. If it is rejected, I can either live with the decision (a decision after all, of elected officials) or if I felt strongly enough about the issue, I could set about gathering signatures to put my proposal on the ballot, thus making my presentation directly to the voters.Do you see in this scenario, since I would be the person proposing a change to the status quo, how (i.e., because of that) it would then be my responsibility to explain why and how my proposal would be god for society?
oops - "...good for society?"
What DavidN said. Quite well.Ken, what you're ignoring (perhaps you're too busy inventing cultural history) is that proponents of gay marriage already have made the affirmative case in legislatures and courts in this and many other countries. If you have evidence heterosexual marriage and family would be harmed we'd have seen it by now.
in a wonderful graduate course "History of the 'Family'" my mind was expanded to recognize, as others have pointed out, how that concept evolved and changed throughout pre-history and history. I see more reason to support the cultural shift than to oppose it, especially with all the discongruencies others have pointed out. I believe that Abp. Dolan is more concerned with "power" than theology as the church continues to exercise less and less influence in defining the marriage commitment and sense of "family", there will ever louder screams about he way it "always" was regardless of history or anthropology.He surely has the right to advocate that no relgious tradition be forced to recognize any marriage that it does not wish to, but not to oppose the civil function and status it provides.
"The sky is falling down! The sky is falling down!" Truth is, the sky has already fallen. Interest in marriage as a legal and legitimating option for same-sex partners is not a cause, but a symptom of a transformation well underway in the nature of marriage as a social and civic institution. But same-sex marriage is not the road to perdition. A failure to live up to one's promises and commitments is. The most interesting argument against gay same-sex marriage is the notion that allows gays to marry (each other) will weaken marriage as a mark of status among heteros, especiallly male. It's the same idea that I have heard with respect to allowing women to be priests--that it drains force from gender distinctions. Ultimately the arguments involve domesticating men without demasculating them (by someone's definition)
Mary, for the benefit of me and those who might not have caught it; please re-state the case in favor of changing the definition of marriage (and by extension, family) that as you say, has been made in legislatures around the world? How does allowing gay marriage help society?
I think Archbishop Dolan's definition of a family would go something like this: "A male and female performing the ontologically pre-determined roles of father and mother and their children." Very few people will dispute the premise that only men are able to fulfill the role of father and only women are able to fulfill the role of mother. It is true that many children are currently in families in which only one of these relationships is present. Very few people will argue that those are desirable arrangements, although they are often the least bad possible arrangements (For example, if one parent is dead or dangerous.)To create a family which lacks one of the parents by intention (as opposed to by necessity) is not quite a redefinition of the concept. But it is a fairly radical innovation.
"Truth is, the sky has already fallen."Yes, this is obvious. But just because a patient has tuberculosis does not make it advisable to deliberately infect him with malaria.
In his first post, he says that marriage is one man, one woman, united in lifelong love and fidelity, hoping for children. His second definition, in the same post, is similar but not identical: a loving, permanent, life-giving union to pro-create children. In his Fathers Day post, he says that marriage is a loving, faithful union between one man and one woman leading to a family.I think it is interesting that opponents of same-sex marriage offer as the one, true, timeless definition of marriage an institution that does not allow for polygamy or divorce. Girgis/Geroge/Anderson do this in "What Is Marriage?" as does Archbishop Dolan. Even the old online Catholic Encyclopedia does not claim that polygamy and divorce are against natural law, and it seems to me that while we may consider polygamy a bad idea today, it was accepted and practiced by some of the greatest figures in the Old Testament. (I did not know, or I had forgotten until I looked it up a few days ago, that King Solomon, with his 700 wives and 300 concubines, was the son of King David and Bathsheba. Remember the story of those two?) Divorce certainly must have as long a history as marriage itself, and no doubt polygamy does, as well. There is now only one country in the world with no divorce laws (the Philippines). It would seem to me that the right for virtually all marriages to be dissolved by divorce is a much larger problem than the right of a few percent of same-sex couples to marry each other.
Haven't we been over all this before?http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=14010What's new to say? Either it's a simple rights issue or it's much more. You can't have it both ways.
To create a family which lacks one of the parents by intention (as opposed to by necessity) is not quite a redefinition of the concept. But it is a fairly radical innovation.Felapton,It seems less radical, or at least less harmful, than divorce, which modifies a family intentionally so it has only one parent.But just because a patient has tuberculosis does not make it advisable to deliberately infect him with malaria.Who is the patient here?
Ken says 'Clearly then, family is important to society. As a logical matter then, undermining the family is not good for society.'Why Ken, have Catholic sacramental marriages declined 50% in a decade and a half while Catholic population grew 15%?Why does A/B. Dolan and bishop DiMarzio have disdain for Catholic lay run marriage programs, as none are listed or funded in their dioceses? If you want credibility one has to put resources/attention instead of mouth into play.
Can someone explain to me why divorce is not the force that has torn down the foundations of society? We are living in the rubble of what marriage once was, for good and bad.
The patient is the institution of marriage. Many people would say, "Marriage is sick; let's not make it sicker." I agree that divorce is also bad for marriage. However, children of divorced parents still often have two parents in their lives, though not in the same housing unit.Children of gay couples are missing one parent. Archbishop Dolan over-emphasizes this point. But it is not irrelevant either.
@Ken,Gosh, I wouldn't think it's a good idea for you to form an opinion without familiarizing yourself with the opposing viewpoint, but that's your choice; I see no need to waste others' time here rehashing arguments that have been thoroughly aired in years of public discourse.
Here is a much better pastoral and theological approach to this local, political fight:http://www.cardinalseansblog.org/ (btw - this is also a bishop's blog)Appears that Dolan, in his effort to be orthodox and passionate, looses any ability to be nuanced, to take a step back and look at this issue more carefully, and finally to put into action his church history skills. Unfortunately, in his haste we get regurgited paeans.
Last week - - Dolan fails to stomp out sexual abuseThis week - - Dolan fails to provide critical exegesis of biblical texts on polygamyNext week - - Dolan fails to speak out on civilian deaths in Libya__________In the unlikely event that any post on this site might want to refer positively to Dolan here are a few of his interesting initiatives that might be worth discussing:http://www.cny.org/stories/Pentecost-Continues,5696?content_source=&cate...
Since the advent of democracy, the shape of marriage has always reflected popular will such that much of the civil law on marriage and family is incompatible with Church doctrine, and this has been the case for a long time. To take an obvious example, laws enabling and defining the rights of those who are divorced and remarried (e.g., spousal rights to benefits). Here are some other "innovations" that have occurred along the way:1. Divorce2. No-fault divorce (New York is the last state in the country to enable no-fault divorce, which occurred last year.)3. Custody presumptions (from men to women to best interests of the child)4. Marital property laws (before the mid-19th century, women basically had no rights to property even if they actually brought it to the marriage).5. Common law marriage -- laws that provided for de facto marital arrangements after the passage of a certain amount of time have been uniformly repealed, because legislatures noticed that there were a lot of people who intended to live together without intending to be married -- that is, who affirmatively did not want to be married, such that common law marriage was defeating their expectations.This is the handful that I could think of in five minutes that are easy to describe. They all have had significant impact on the nature of family relations. The Church does not advance its cause by making bold statements that are easily refuted on the facts.
Children of gay couples are missing one parent. Archbishop Dolan over-emphasizes this point. But it is not irrelevant either.Felapton,Well, children adopted by same-sex couples who have been given up by their birth parents will not be raised by their biological parents no matter what, and since single-parent adoption is permitted, they may be adopted and be missing a mother or father in their adoptive home. Or they may remain in foster care and never be adopted at all. So far, it seems that single parents and same-sex couples have been adopting some of the more difficult-to-place children from foster care who might not otherwise have been adopted.I don't suppose we have any good data regarding how same-sex couples who raise children are the biological mothers or fathers, and to what extent they include the biological mothers and fathers of their own children in the lives of the children. And of course while the issues of same-sex marriage, childbearing by those in same-sex relationships, and adoption by those in same-sex relationships are closely related, they are not the same issue. I know a number of same-sex couples who have been together most of their lives. Only one couple is legally married. None have children or plan on having them. It seems to me very difficult to say with any degree of certainty that the children adopted by same-sex couples would be better off had they remained unadopted or been adopted by someone other than same-sex couples.There has been at least one study that found children of lesbian couples fared better than children of heterosexual couples. It might be best to be somewhat cautious about pinning opposition to same-sex marriage on the welfare of the children. If further studies show lesbian parents are superior, it may be necessary to oppose heterosexual marriage.
As I said above, I think this is a losing battle, but for what it's worth - I'm dismayed by the argument contra-natural law evidenced in some of the comments. This argument seems to be essentially that the Catholic argument against gay marriage rests on an ideal not borne out in reality, as in the case of heterosexual marriage and divorce. Or perhaps that because hetero marriages have a high incidence of divorce, and the Church isn't advocating for a ban on divorce, that the Church's ideal of marriage is fractured and seems like selective outrage.I find this troubling for a few reasons:First, it seems to reject a long-held mode of Catholic argument, both analogical and sacramental. Simply because the ideal doesn't reflect reality or vice-versa does not mean that one must throw the baby out with the bathwater it seems to me. This is implicit in Thomas's levels of law, with the higest order - divine law, reflecting, but never being fully captured in the "lower" levels of law. The supernatural is never reduced completely to the natural, there is always brokeness and incompleteness. But that is not say that we should NOT strive to pass laws reflective of the best of the divine law.Secondly, there seems implicit an assertion that because the Church does not advocate a full ban on divorce, it somehow accommodates or tolerates divorce, and that this tolerance irreparably fractures its ideal of marriage. That seems an unsupportable position. The Church may not advocate a ban on divorce, but it also doesn't recognize divorce as such either. It also ignores the signficant social science research showing the detrimental effects of divorce on a variety of measures, including health, wages, education, etc. It further ignores the growing number of states restricting divorce in certain situations. The Church's stance on divorce may well look prophetic, rather than old and worn out, by the time it's all said and done.Again with respect to divorce, while divorce is certainly a fracturing of the ideal of marriage, it does not seem to me to be a rejection of the ideal in itself, as is the case with gay marriage. The suggestion above to the effect that there is no "big deal" about gay marriage because it simply amounts to a "swapping" of one partner is a very curious claim for a Roman Catholic to make. I think this is some of what Ms. Steinfels is getting at it in the other post when she wonders why advocates for gay marriage cannot or won't admit that such a change is a big deal, at least from a Catholic point of view. Finally, all Catholics should take note of the legal challenged filed by Catholic Charities in Illinois to that states civil union's law. The suit essentially seeks a conscience exemption for groups who do not accept same sex marriage such as the church with respect to adoption policies. Absent such an exemption, Catholic Charities will be forced out of the adoption services. What are the limits of "freedom of religion"?On a larger scale, I just read a piece by Prof. George on Mirror of Justice discussing the limits imposed on a Catholic's political leanings by Catholicism (he rejects Randian individualism FYI). I wonder in light of that whether, for a Catholic, marriage (or any moral matter) can ever simply, merely, just be a "civil rights" issue? Seems to me our Catholicism has to impose some limits on some of the civil rights rhetoric, whether it be to property or to marry whomever one desires.
Bill deHaas: Thanks for that link to Cardinal O'Malley's blog.
The Church more than tolerates or accommodates divorce, it in fact requires it, in the case of annulments.
"The Church more than tolerates or accommodates divorce, it in fact requires it, in the case of annulments."I believe you're confusing the concepts. An annulment is not a divorce.
Jeff, no one is asking the Church to change its doctrine. If there is a failure here, it is the failure of the Church or Dolan to separate out Catholic doctrine from civil law. Civil law will always reflect popular will, for better or worse. It is only a defeat or concession for the Catholic Church to the extent that the Church considers itself to be subject to civil law definitions and rules on marriage, which it manifestly is not. I have no problem with the Church making the case in civil law type terms why gay marriage is bad -- but housing that opposition in the Catholic definition of sacramental marriage must fail almost by definition, because the popular will has rejected that definition as a mandatory element of marriage for a long time now. And, of course, no state can base its own laws on marriage by incorporating Catholic doctrine by reference.
The Church may not advocate a ban on divorce, but it also doesnt recognize divorce as such either.Jeff, Isn't it true that the Church requires a civil divorce before the annulment process can begin?
" ... at least one study that found children of lesbian couples fared better than children of heterosexual couples." No, I don't think it does. The Achenbach normative sample of American youth (comparison sample) does not seem to be restricted to children of heterosexual couples. It probably includes children of single-mothers and step-families. And it simply asserts they display less aggressive behavior and rule-breaking. I'm sure the Archbishop more concerned with their chances of attaining the Beatific Vision. (He himself is hardly a paragon of compliance.)
Jeff, I suspect that what Mary is saying is that before someone can get an annulment from the Church they must either be seeking or have sought legal dissolution of their marriage. This is a required element.
Jeff, I'm not confused. Annulments require a civil divorce.
Paul Moses (06/20/2011 - 3:58 pm):
Bill deHaas: Thanks for that link to Cardinal OMalleys blog.
Yes, thanks, though there was almost no defense there of the Church's position. He spent almost all his time saying that the Church doesn't hate gays.
"Jeff, I suspect that what Mary is saying is that before someone can get an annulment from the Church they must either be seeking or have sought legal dissolution of their marriage. This is a required element."I see now. Requiring it and encouraging it are still distinct in my mind."I have no problem with the Church making the case in civil law type terms why gay marriage is bad but housing that opposition in the Catholic definition of sacramental marriage must fail almost by definition, because the popular will has rejected that definition as a mandatory element of marriage for a long time now. And, of course, no state can base its own laws on marriage by incorporating Catholic doctrine by reference."I agree with you at least to an extent, which is why I think Catholics may not be able to accept the strictly "civil rights" framing of the issue. Of course the moral teaching of the Church is that its ideal of marriage is not strictly "sacramental", but one accessible to all via the natural law.
Nice dodge Mary (the old 'if you don't know I won't tell' trick), but nobody has explained why or how gay marriage would be good for society.
My use of the word "swapping" above was intentionally cheeky as a response to the idea that the very notion of family is "shredded" when two parents are of the same gender. Pshaw.The family is an accommodating and socially flexible structure. Same-sex marriage will not destroy it, even as it is clear that marriage is undergoing a sea-change due to many forces--social, economic, technological. Forbidding gays to marry (each other) is not going to stop those forces.At the same time, same-sex marriage is a very big deal--a game-changer. My position is that the civil law should accommodate the existing social contracts under emerging notions of marriage and family structures.
Two Tocquevillian predictions, both anticipating that after legalization of same-sex marriage debates will only become more intense.I remain convinced that recognition is the main goal of the homosexual marriage movement and that there is a strong possibility that institutionalizing gay marriage will not provide the desired reassurance. Then all the behaviors and words and traditions that honor traditional heterosexual marriage will have to be suppressed or at least delegitimized. Partner one, partner two. Robert Nagel, Colorado LawThe absolute equivalence of hetero and homosexual relationships will become public orthodoxy. The result will be that parents will be effectively disabled from expressing any preference whatsoever for heterosexuality, heterosexual families, or traditional heterosexual marriage, and any disapproval or lesser preference for homosexuality, even for their own children. The parity of homosexual and heterosexual relationships and life styles will be aggressively pursued, and anyone who dares to question this will be defined as a bigot. Do I look forward to this breathtaking expansion of the empire of political correctness? Certainly not! The implications of such a state of affairs for religious practice and expression are staggering -- this is a whole different subject unto itself.Amy Wax, Penn Lawhttp://www.fed-soc.org/debates/dbtid.24/default.asp
Well, I acknowledge Massachusetts has had gay marriage for several years now and we don't seem to have suffered any adverse effects. But we are a superior sort of people up here. I don't know how it will go in New York.
Religious leaders have both a right and an obligation to advise the wider community on religious objections to proposed legislation. For example, if the state were to propose a law requiring physicians to comply with a patient's desire for physician-assisted euthanasia, a bishop would be derelict in his duties not to protest.
Gay marriage is, on balance, good for the people who seek it and for those around them who benefit from the stabilizing effects of marriage. No harm to others. Gay people will, on balance, be happier, especially those who are married (to other gay people) in loving relationships. A multiplier effect obtains in that family and friends and neighbors of gay people will benefit from this happiness. (Not all married people are happier as a result, of course.) People who worry that their children might grow up to be gay might be less worried. People who fear the commitment and responsibility of marriage will see that gay couple making a life together and think, "I would like that for myself." People of a Christian persuasion can stop fighting with one another over this matter and attend to spiritual and corporal works of mercy that testify to God's radical call to justice and peace. The collective happiness of these sundry folk elevates the happiness quotient all around, contributing to a net "good for society."
"The family is an accommodating and socially flexible structure. Same-sex marriage will not destroy it, even as it is clear that marriage is undergoing a sea-change due to many forcessocial, economic, technological. Forbidding gays to marry (each other) is not going to stop those forces."Has the ideal of "family" ever excluded the possibility of procreation; or the mutuality of the different sexes inherent in Catholic Social Teaching? If it has, does this exclude a Christian from exhorting that norm as a good for society? Seems to me at one point, marital infidelity was routinely accepted, at least among some classes. I think a case can be made that marriage, and women, are better off with a more robust expectation of martial fidelity. "My position is that the civil law should accommodate the existing social contracts under emerging notions of marriage and family structures."So should one "police" the contract? Or should parties be free to contract with no restrictions? People enter into all sorts of contracts for nefarious purposes: hit jobs, sexual services, illegal drug sales. So are these to be "hands off" too because they are the result of a valid contract between consenting parties? Of should the civil law "accommodate" these "emerging notions" of marriage? How is this not the kind of radical individualism which we are told is the anti-thesis of the common good?On a macro-level, even if one rejects the Church's teaching on same sex marriage, should the Church be precluded from making its case?
Just to note that Eduardo's post did not claim there were no good arguments an archbishop could make against same-sex marriage. He just said that Archbishop Dolan's arguments weren't very good. And they weren't. I think I could make a better case against same-sex marriage myself, and I'm not opposed to it. If I were opposed to same-sex marriage, I would be disappointed Archbishop Dolan did such a poor job. And then there was his call to the radio show, in which he said things that were just not true: Youve got couples now in England who are now told they cant adopt children because theyre not open to same-sex marriage. As I pointed out, there is no same-sex marriage in England. He badly misrepresented the case he was referring to, and if he had used it correctly, it would have been a very effective argument for his position. The problem with Archbishop Dolan and other opponents of same-sex marriage (and some in the pro-life movement, as well) is they don't seem to feel that they have to stick to the facts. As long as they speak in opposition to same-sex marriage or abortion, accuracy is not important.
So much of what is viewed as orthodox Catholicism simply highlights one way that the faith has been lived in the past, determines this to be normative, and then dismisses what might depart from it as being somehow less Catholic. This tends to be quite dismissive of the constitutively changing nature of the traditions of such things as marriage.Sacramental marriage was not part of the Christian religion until 1545 at the Council of Trent. There was no sacrament of matrimony before that. In 1200 there first came the concept of marriage for love. Prior to that, women were given to men as part of a business arrangement between families. Nothing holy about that! If we do not want to redefine marriage, then we should go back to having your father arrange who you should marry.Lets try to define marriage as the Bible does. Shall we look at Abraham, the great patriarch, who slept with his servant when he discovered his beloved wife Sarah was infertile? Or to Jacob, who fathered children with four different women (two sisters and their servants)? Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon and the kings of Judah and Israelall these fathers and heroes were polygamists. The New Testament model of marriage is hardly better. Jesus himself was single and preached an indifference to earthly attachmentsespecially family. St. Paul regarded marriage as an act of last resort for those unable to contain their animal lust. It is better to marry than to burn with passion, says the apostle, in one of the most lukewarm endorsements of a treasured institution ever uttered. Would any contemporary heterosexual married couplewho likely woke up on their wedding day harboring some optimistic and newfangled ideas about gender equality and romantic loveturn to the Bible as a how-to script?I recommend you read John Boswells book Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality (University of Chicago Press, 1980), in which he documents legally recognized homosexual marriage in ancient Rome extending into the Christian period, and his Same-Sex Unions in Pre-modern Europe (Villard Books, 1994), in which he discusses Church-blessed same-sex unions and even an ancient Christian same-sex nuptial liturgy.
About the Author
Eduardo Moisés Peñalver is the Allan R. Tessler Dean of the Cornell Law School. He is the author of numerous books and articles on the subjects of property and land use law.


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Vehicles with Safety & Quality Ratings
Changes to the 2015 Cadillac SRX crossover-SUV are minor this year, consisting of some new colors and the addition of 4G LTE with built-in Wi-Fi-hotspot capability to the standard OnStar system.
Other than the availability of 18-inch chrome wheels, new color choices and the Intellibeam automatically controlled high-beam headlights, the 2014 Cadillac SRX remains much the same as last year's model.
With its edgy, chiseled appearance and long list of available features, the 2015 Cadillac SRX luxury crossover-SUV has further expanded the automaker's appeal to a younger audience. Despite going on its fifth year in this iteration, the SRX still manages to hold up well when pitted against such rivals as the BMW X3, Audi Q5 and Mercedes-Benz GLK. Although not as athletic as the Germans, the SRX still manages to impress with its moves. It also offers a more comfortable ride, plentiful interior room and powerful V6 engine. Couple this with the SRX's impressive safety features and technology-rich CUE touch-screen infotainment system, and the SRX proves why Cadillac is very much still in the luxury crossover-SUV game.

subset: commoncrawl


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RALEIGH — Brace yourself amigo for a most triumphant movie when the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences shows "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" on First Friday, December 2 at 7pm. Free. Dude! It's the funniest comedy in the history of history!
November 29, 2011 - 1:57pm
November 29, 2011 - 1:35pm
Chitin, like cellulose in plants and collagen in vertebrates, is a bio-molecule th
November 7, 2011 - 4:12pm'Genghis Khan: The Exhibition' comes to downtown Raleigh
October 18, 2011 - 1:22pm
October 7, 2011 - 12:53pm
The North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences and the North Carolina section of the American Chemical Society have teamed up once again to present Chemistry Day on Saturday, October 15 from 11 a.m. to 4 p.m. at the Museum, located in downtown Raleigh at the corner of Jones and Salisbury streets. All of the Chemistry Day activities will take place on the first floor of the Museum. Free. This year's theme is "Chemistry: Our Health, Our Future."
October 3, 2011 - 11:38am
Join us for an incredible, unbelievable story told the untamed way … and shown in intriguing 2-D … when "Robot Monster" launches an attack on common sense at the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences on First Friday, October 7 at 7pm. Free.
September 26, 2011 - 5:29pm
Join us for a visual tour of the places in the world most affected by climate change, from the poles to mountains and our cities, when explorer and photojournalist Gary Braasch presents "Climate Change Now: A Photographer Explores the World of Global Warming" at the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences in downtown Raleigh on Monday, October 3, 7pm. Free.
September 21, 2011 - 10:26am
Take A Child Outside Week, a national initiative spearheaded by the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences, kicks off Saturday, September 24 and runs through Friday, September 30.
BugFest Critter Cook-off to feature the culinary stylings of local chefs from the Angus Barn and SonoSeptember 13, 2011 - 8:00am
The North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences' annual BugFest Critter Cook-off, the official start to BugFest 2011, kicks off on Friday, September 16 at 11 a.m. in the Treasures Hall of the Museum. This Iron-Chef style media preview has been a crowd pleaser for more than ten years. Chef Jim Long, Executive Sous Chef at the Angus Barn will compete against Chef Michael Lee, Executive Chef of Sono Japanese Restaurant for the title of BugFest Critter Cook-off Champion 2011!
September 9, 2011 - 6:16pm
Genghis Khan: The Exhibition explores the arc of Khan's dramatic life — from illiterate, tormented child to the millennium's greatest ruler, coupled with the rise of an unparalleled empire of freedom and innovation which he created.


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The theme of Jones County's 12th Annual Veterans Appreciation Day was 'Honoring Our Veterans of Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow'.
That theme was exemplified by the showing of interviews with WWII veteran George Thornton, Vietnam veteran Bobby Daniels, and Desert Storm veteran Monte Tolleson.
Veterans Committee Chairman Retired Col. Richard Combs also introduced Lance Cpl. Clayton, who is on active duty and was in the audience.
"We don't know who they are but the veterans of tomorrow may be here. When each of us ends our active duty, we do not end our service to our country. As my father set the bar for me, we set the bar for others," Combs said.
The speaker pointed out the country needs its veterans.
For the full story, pick up a copy of this week's newspaper or subscribe to our e-Edition at http://ee.jcnews.com.


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Details and Shopping
Customer Favorite
- FP Exclusive :
- Only sold thru Free People
Distress washed henley top with western-style stitching at upper chest. Button opening at front of chest.
We the Free brings us back to our down-to-earth, All-American roots, made mostly with casual cottons that have a lightly distressed and perfectly worn in feel.
We the Free brings us back to our down-to-earth, All-American roots, made mostly with casual cottons that have a lightly distressed and perfectly worn in feel.
*52% Linen
*48% Cotton
*Machine Wash Cold
*48% Cotton
*Machine Wash Cold
Measurements for Small:Length: 25 1/4"= 64 cm
Bust (all around): 38"= 97 cm
Sleeve Length: 23"= 58 cm
Rated 4.3 out of 5Â by 45 reviewers.
Rated 5 out of 5Â by Fuvy Repeat on this shirt! Love so much! I had to get this in black seeing the other two colors weren't my first choice, but still had compliments on the other two. Very comfortable . I'm a 36C to D about 117 right now at 5-3 and go with the small. Comfy shirt which is why I'm getting it in another color. It's cozy on a cool day and yet light enough on a warm day. It's the perfect shirt! I wish more people would tell their size top to help others out when buying a top. It sure would help with returning things. 10.27.2013
Rated 4 out of 5Â by karenheff not even close to indigo I'm going to keep it anyway, because it's cute, and a pretty shade of french blue, but it is definitely not like pictured nor like the ones I saw in the store. I really wanted indigo, but XL sizes are never stocked in my local store. I am a huge FP fan, but it's really frustrating when the colors are so off. This has happened to me a number of times, and it's not a matter of not matching my monitor. 5.25.2013
Rated 5 out of 5Â by madicowan LOVE! I got this shirt for christmas and I am literally obsessed with it. The lightness of the fabric, the cut of the seams, it's all just great! I am a bigger, very busty girl, 5'6" 180 lbs and the large fits me great. I have a large bust and a small waist and large hips and this top just hits me in all the right places. That being said it does stretch out fairly quick! 1.6.2014
Rated 2 out of 5Â by mandykerr79 Coral Is Too Vibrant I purchased this in the coral but it was much brighter than it appears in the picture, (almost like an 80's flouro top) so I sent it back. Otherwise, the fit was relaxed and the garment felt very comfortable. 10.22.2013
Rated 5 out of 5Â by SmCki Cowgirl Chic :p I adore this Henley! Fits perfectly, (for ref I am 174cm 55kg I ordered a small) the fabric is light and airy, but not sheer. I love how you can roll up the sleeves and button them, such a cool look. I got the black and it's beautifully distressed...I now want one in every colour :) It is a bit pricey, but I'm very happy with the quality, so if you're thinking about buying this shirt. Get it! 9.12.2013
Rated 5 out of 5Â by gehrle Can't wait for weather to cool so I can wear it Very soft and comfortable. A great casual top that will go with so much I already own. 9.7.2013
Rated 5 out of 5Â by kimzyc I need one in every color! This top is So soft, So cute on- the perfect casual cool top! It isn't too tight or too slouchy and it hangs just right in back or front. I am a petite 5' 2" and the XS was perfect. 8.28.2013
Rated 5 out of 5Â by japsparkle love the mineral blue (light blue) I got the light blue color in XS. Didn't really like the other colors. I lucked out and got the mineral blue (light blue) color from a free people store because it's sold out online. This henley is so soft and comfortable. I can wear it everyday! Good basic and worth the price! 8.18.2013
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Chad Abshire
Staff Writer
PIKEVILLE, Ky. — A Pike County man was killed in a single-vehicle accident in Draffin on Friday.
Louie B. Stewart, 48, of Draffin, was traveling West on River Road when the 1997 Jeep Grand Cherokee he was operating exited the shoulder of the road and came to rest on its roof in the river.
The Kentucky State Police, Ferrells Creek Fire Department, Marrowbone Fire Department, and Millard East Shelbiana Fire Department responded to the call.
A passenger in the vehicle was able to escape and told emergency responders that Stewart was still within.
Fire and rescue teams removed the vehicle found Stewart inside the vehicle. He was pronounced dead at the scene by Pike County Deputy Coroner Denver Bailey
The accident remains under investigation by KSP Trooper Heath Ayres. Ayres was assisted on scene by KSP Trooper J.B. Cox.


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Newbies, Post in Welcome Central to open up the boards
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#19 - IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON"The plan of God, or as it literally reads 'according to the plan of the ages' (Eph.3:11) will work out as God purposed; It will not fail. God shall be All in all (1Cor.15:28). The saving work of Christ will continue throughout the ages, for Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for the ages (Heb.13:8). God's purpose and plan in creation, redemption, and new creation will then be clearly apprehended by all, and His character will be unveiled and vindicated."
#22 - AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS LOUIS ABBOTTIn the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct. I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)This book can be read online at this linkAN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html ENJOY!
#33 - HOPE BEYOND HELL GERRY BEAUCHEMIN (recently published)"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.


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Written by David Quiroga for NM State Media Relations
LAS CRUCES, N.M. – The New Mexico State men's tennis team heads to the 2013 edition of the Western Athletic Conference Championship in Denver, Colo., April 26-28. NM State enters the championship as the No. 4 seed and faced No. 5 Utah State on April 26 at 10 a.m.
The Aggies go into the tournament as the No. 4 seed after finishing the regular season with a record of 13-8 and 3-2 in conference play. NM State completed the regular season defeating Utah State 4-2 and beating three of its last four opponents.
Consistency throughout the season led the Aggies to a No. 4 seed entering the tournament. At no point in the season did the Aggies lose more than two consecutive matches. NM State also earned five shutout victories this season, including dominating 7-0 wins over UT Permian Basin and Scottsdale Community College.
Some notable wins for the Aggies during the season were against 58th-ranked Texas A&M Corpus Christi and in-state foe Western New Mexico University.
NM State was led by freshmen standout, Daniel Fernandez. During the season Fernandez finished 15-4 in singles overall and 4-0 in WAC play, winning each of his conference matches in straight sets. Fernandez recorded a 12-3 record in doubles, playing primarily with Paul Denele at the No. 3 spot. He was named WAC player of the week twice for his work on the court.
The Aggies enter the tournament on a two-match win streak and look for a repeat performance against No. 5 Utah State, Friday, April 26 at 10 a.m. The winner of Friday's match will face No. 1 seed Denver on Saturday morning.


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Origin: China
Leaf Type: Oolong Tea
Taste: Aromatic with a Floral Sweetness
Drink: Without Milk
Brew: 3-5 minutes according to taste with water off the boil
When to drink: Afternoon
Delicate 'semi-fermented' Oolong is halfway between a black and green tea. Its floral, lingering sweetness comes from a process of bruising, shaking and rolling the leaves which takes great skill to perfect. A truly exotic taste that is subtle, mild and aromatic, perfect for late afternoon or evening.


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I'd also like to share some exciting news with my readers. Lisa's Kitchen is the featured blog this month for Tried and Tasted, a monthly event started by Zlamushka and hosted this month by Aparna of My Diverse Kitchen. For those unfamiliar with the event, each month a different blog is featured and participants are invited to browse through the archives and try some of the recipes and post about their experience. I'm flattered to be the focus this month, and I can't wait to see which recipes my fellow cooks choose. Maintaining a food blog is a lot of work, but the rewards are many and asides from the friends I have made and the lovely comments and feedback, one of the greatest returns for my efforts is knowing that others are preparing and enjoying my creations.
Rice PongalMore delightful rice dishes:
1/4 cup of raw cashews, halved
2 tablespoons of ghee, or a mixture of butter and oil
1 cup of basmati rice
1/2 cup of split mung beans (moong dal)
1/2 teaspoon of turmeric
4 1/2 cups of water
3 tablespoons of ghee, or a mixture of butter and oil
1 teaspoon of ground cumin
1 teaspoon of freshly cracked black pepper
1 teaspoon of asafoetida powder
1 inch piece of ginger, peeled and finely chopped or grated
handful of dry curry leaves
1 teaspoon of sea salt
1/4 cup of dried coconut
Rinse the rice well in a fine strainer. Transfer to bowl, cover with water, swish it around a few times, drain and repeat until the water is relatively clear and no longer cloudy. Drain, cover with water and soak the rice for about 20 minutes or longer. Drain and set aside to air dry for 15 minutes or so.
Heat 2 tablespoons of the ghee in a heavy frying pan over medium heat. When hot, toss in the cashews and stir and fry until they turn brown - roughly 5 minutes. Transfer to a small bowl and set aside.
In a large pot or wok, dry roast the rice for 5 minutes. Transfer to a medium large saucepan. Now dry roast the moong dal in the wok or large pot for 5 minutes. Wash in a strainer and add to the pot with the rice, along with the turmeric and 4 1/2 cups of water. Bring to a boil, reduce the heat to low and cover and simmer until the dal and rice is cooked and the water is mostly evaporated - roughly 30 minutes. Add more water if necessary. Set aside.
Heat the remaining 3 tablespoons of ghee in a large wok of pot over medium heat. When hot, add the cumin, cracked black pepper, asafoetida, ginger and the curry leaves. Stir and fry for a minute. Add the rice and dal to the pan, along with the coconut and salt and cook for another few minutes, adding a bit of water to the pan if desired.
Garnish with the roasted cashews.
Serves 6.
Lime Flavoured Rice with Split Peas
Lemon Rice with Toasted Cashews
Tamarind Rice
Cracked Black Pepper Rice


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I am so sorry to hear about Isaac. I too had early onset and severe pe with hellp, and had my baby girl at 25 weeks - she gave us 7.5 weeks of joy before leaving us. Please have your friend email me at firstname.lastname@example.com if she would like to chat as I can also totally relate to her.
Bhanu - mom to Angel Shefali (born 25wks, 10/25/03 - 12/18/03, severe PE/HELLP)


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The award-winning Bilingual Talking Farm improves children's language, thinking, and musical skills in both English and Spanish. The Bilingual Talking Farm teaches children how to listen, recognize, and speak by teaching them to count to 10 and by helping them learn 11 animals' names, colors, and sounds. It includes four interactive modes with learning games involving naming, matching, answering, and sequencing. Each level becomes increasingly difficult so that the toy expands children's skills. This toy improves children's abilities to listen and sing along with its 8 nursery songs that are accompanied by electronic flashing lights.
- Bilingual Toy - Speaks over 250 words and phrases that teach numbers, colors, animal names, and sounds in English and Spanish.
- 4 modes of play for various stages of development.
- Features lights, sounds and songs.
- Requires: 2 x AA 1.5V batteries (included).
- Age: 12M+


text: Glamourdaze is a subdued plummy red with a glossy sheen. It has a Cremesheen finish and opaque color coverage. It had a slightly stiff consistently–much like the Cremesheen finish tends to be, which I just don't find to be creamy. It wore for five hours, and it was neither drying nor hydrating. MAC Offshoot is a smidgen pinker. CoverGirl Fervor is a little more intense. Cle de Peau #117 is very similar. Dior Raspberry is also similar. MAC Capricious is lighter, pinker.


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Alerts and Important Information
Check -in time is 3:00 p.m. at the Campground Store. Maximum 4 people per CABIN. No pets. Cabins have no kitchens or bathrooms. There are walk-on sites, hand carts provided. These are walk-on sites, hand carts provided. Pound swimming is prohibited. No tents or other camping units allowed.


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Butler Community College
Advanced Biotechnology
Learn more about the rapidly growing industry of Biotechnology. Become a skilled laboratory technician in only three semesters. Labs are face-to-face; lectures are online.Learn More
Visit Butler
August is almost here but there's still time to get your college career started right! Tour Butler, explore our programs and find your tomorrow.Admissions
Bookstore Renovation
The El Dorado Bookstore is accessible from its backdoor on the west side of the building during the Student Union remodel. Prefer to miss the mess? Feel free to visit us in Andover.About the Bookstore


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statelinetack.com > Shop By Brand > Ariat > Item # SLT651647
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Lace Side Panel Bustier Dress
Style # 213438
With luxe lace paneling, full metal zipper at front and sexy heart-shaped neckline, this bebe cocktail dress is sure to turn heads. Go tonal in a pair of studded sandals and a matching clutch.
- 60% rayon, 35% nylon, 5% spandex
- Center back to hem: 25" (64 cm)
- Spandex lining
- Adjustable and removable straps
- Exposed metal zipper
- Dry clean
- Imported
- Model is 5'9" and is wearing a US size S
Rated 5 out of 5�by 3 reviewers.
Rated 5 out of 5�by Peaches1742 Love Fits great and you can control how much or how little cleavage you show with the front zipper. July 7, 2013
Rated 5 out of 5�by Sexy30 Get more colors Bebe this dress is so beautiful but I would like to wear it in the daytime. Please make jean color or other fun colors to use it in this nice springs days!! I would definitely purchase!!! April 26, 2013
Rated 5 out of 5�by Asiandoll Sexy Black Dress I absolutely love this dress! I love that the fabric stretches to fit your shape perfectly. I've never gone wrong w/a Bebe dress ever. April 16, 2013
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Contact Us:The Corporate University
Kent State University at Stark
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North Canton OH 44720
Phone: 330-244-3512
Fax: 330-244-3535
Email: firstname.lastname@example.com
Web: www.YourCorporateU.com
YouTube Linked In
Corporate Education & Training: Knowledge Network
Welcome to the Knowledge Network, your partner in professional development and employee education. As a Knowledge Network member, your organization will benefit from educational opportunities with a top-ranked university as well as:
- Customized organizational and individual development plans and transcripts
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- A learning plan advisor will support your human resources professionals in strategically mapping out the organization's professional development plan and will manage all the administrative details, ensuring a seamless, worry-free training experience.


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Rising from the ashes of The Libertines, Pete Doherty formed Babyshambles – as famous for cancelling gigs as they are for Doherty's drug dependence. Notoriously axed by Oasis on their 2005 UK tour for failing to turn up, Babyshambles are drugs in every sense of the word – destructive but addictive.
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Babyshambles News
Babyshambles pull out of gig in Middlesbrough
Band waited till the last minute to announce they wouldn't be playing at TFM Soundworks last night (Dec 20)
- Dec 21, 2013
Babyshambles announce one-off London gig
- Dec 2, 2013
Babyshambles, Cage The Elephant tickets amongst tours to go on sale tomorrow (November 8)
- Nov 7, 2013
Pete Doherty says he nearly scrapped latest Babyshambles tour three hours before first gig
- Sep 11, 2013
Babyshambles Reviews
- Sep 20, 2013
Babyshambles - 'Sequel To The Prequel'
- Aug 29, 2013
Babyshambles - 'Nothing Comes To Nothing'
- Aug 21, 2013
Babyshambles - 'Dr No'
- Apr 16, 2013


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But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
The good Samaritan is an excellent point. It doesn't matter what the one in need of help believed or did not believe. What maters is what the Samaritan believed. In the parable the Good Samaritan is Jesus. Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. {the law could not help} Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him], and passed by on the other side. {the law could not save} Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him], Luk 10:34 And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, {the healing of Christ} pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, {God's sufficiency} and brought him to an inn, {the house of the Father} and took care of him. Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave [them] to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee {the second appearance}. Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? Of course Jesus said, go and do likewise. Barry
it's everyone in the world. Look at the Good Samaritan parable. Some of our brothers[yes they are brothers that have also been subjected by God 'unwillingly'.Meaning of God's will not ours...therefore doing the will of God] For the creature was subjected,not of it's own will, but of the will of Him which subjected it,to vanity....IN ORDER TO SET THE WHOLE CREATION FREE INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE SONS OF GOD. that stone is growing until it fills the whole earth...... Mountains that grow and send forth fire make new earth


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|144 posts found
Apprentice Member
Joined: 6/16/04
I suppose it depends on what type of progression you are talking about. If it's a gear grind for PvP specific stats then no, that's quite possibly the worst thing to happen to MMO's. PvP is about the players and their skill, not a player trying to overcome someone elses gear.
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Originally posted by Quesa
Of course I don't want a gear grind. I want something similar to this: http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/realm-abilities
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
Advanced Member
Joined: 4/26/12
i agree with this above but want to add to also that DAOC i felt did it right pre TOA where you would just have a set of player crafted 100% quality gear and your realm abilities is what gave you the edge instead of gear grinding for months. Though it was still a grind it at least made your toon much different than the next guy of your class and it was fun. People would hate my reaver with a passion on tower defense games because I would thorn weed field them then hit the pbaoe lifetap (UQToS) and sometimes if they werent paying attention drop the entire 8 man . This was a lot of fun to me but any smart player seeing a reaver would just avoid getting bunched up in a snare with damage.
Ive always been a avid defender of added pvp abilites you earn for the more you pvp because it opens up new gameplay options to you . I HATE gear grinds with a passion but sometimes they are honestly needed , just look at that trainwreck of a pvp system in both wow and rift to see. Imagine if there was no pvp gear and you just had raiders abile to get the best gear. They would walk into a pvp battleground or skirmish and demolish everyone that isnt a raider and that would be unfair to people who just want to pvp and not raid or do dungeon heroics etc.
I think TESO will have pvp personally though no info is available yet about it. But you have to think whats going to keep raiders at bay in pvp zones when they get bored of raiding ? Guild Wars 2 did that part of the game right because all gear could be earned in both pvp and end game pve. I just hope they do the same but they are already talking about raids being end game in TESO.
Novice Member
Joined: 6/17/10
Surprisingly, I see myself agreeing with the OP
With exception of long term CC, like others said, if it is like the common CC it would suck, if its like WAR then it could work marvelously, plus they could add a immune effect after someone takes a CC to stop abusing like in GW2
"It has potential"
Novice Member
Joined: 12/15/12
Originally posted by jtcgs
Amen. I missed out on DaoC, although I hear tales that in it's prime it was an awesome game. I tried Asheron's Call when it was released, but sadly never liked it.
I started Playing Ultima Online in November 1997, and was seriously hooked. You were afraid to go out with your good gear, you had reasons for grouping with friends. The PvP was spectacular. Large groups of reds dominating the dungeons, until the blues could round up enough to go face them. Huge dungeon fights, avoid monsters and fighting through all levels, with some fights lasting over an hour. That was good pvp. Sadly I haven't seen much PvP like that since. Darkfall tried, but I think it missed the mark. I doubt we will ever see a game like UO ever again.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/21/11
Sage said on that last video you can't get the best gear purely by pve. To have the best you need a combination of pvp,pve AND crafting. I'm hoping you just need 2 of the 3 though, don't want to put up with all the drama and politics you get with progression end game pve.
Joined: 3/03/12
Apvp (area pvp) is not the same as Wpvp. We've seen this with swtor, tsw, and gw2. It just doesn't scrathc the itch of the unexpected.
I can't wait to check out the combat systems and the itemization, but this stuff is going to have to amazing, not just good in order for TESO's Apvp to have any staying power.
Elite Member
Joined: 6/10/09
Overall I disagree with the OPs premise and conclusions. DAoC might be popular here, but open world factionless pvp games were and currently are a lot more popular. Lineage and maybe UO both I would consider more popular than daoc.
I agree with seeing names because it helps add to the competition. I also think adding incentives for keep holding rather than flipping are good.
I disagree with long cc and most of the other assumptions especially the fps philosophy of focusing on and mainly rewarding kill counts only. In contrived faction-oriented pvp like daoc zerg is the norm especially when it's not open world.
It just seems futile to try and add meaning to such rigidly defined themepark style pvp. A wading pool only gets so deep and so does this sort of pvp.
Elite Member
Joined: 6/10/09
Originally posted by bcbully
Amazingly enough, for once I agree with you.
Elite Member
Joined: 1/06/05
Originally posted by Quesa
Well, to a point. Otherwise there is no reason to have any gear whatsoever. Though my preference would be to have less of a gap between good gear and incredible gear.
Still, if someone is wearing good armor then that armor should protect. The issue comes from someone just wearing good gear and then standing there invulnerable. That should never happen. Heck, no player should ever be invulnerable, even from level 1 players. Or several of them in any case.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 6/16/04
Originally posted by Sovrath
To each their own.
The argument for PvP gear through a grind is always proped up on the fact that they want something to go for. When you ask these people if they would accept cosmetic gifts through PvP, many of them say "no". That's where the argument breaks down. PvP should be just that, Player vs. Player. If you have a gear grind whih we saw in the beginnings of games like WoW and Rift, you are really just participating in PvGear until you equalize it through the grind.
The proposal from GW2, when it first started, was that everyone would have the equalized stats for their class (at least that's what I remembered) and that's the proper way to go if you truly want a competitive battlefield. This also has the positive effect of making it easier to balance out skills for PvP instead of having to rebalance everything if one class gets a new drop.
If the OP is suggesting skills through PvP, I suppose I could get on board as long as they make no real impact on PvP. I want Players to play Players, not Players to fight other players Gear. That's not PvP.
Edit: Obviously for world PvP, things can't be this way unless you're prepaired to adjust everything in the event of PvP combat starting.
Elite Member
Joined: 1/06/05
Originally posted by Quesa
Well, it is player against player. And what they bring to the table as far as tools to help them succeed. I just think gear should be a little less of the decider but should still be a part of the toolset that the player can put together. However, If the whole idea is for people to get gear so they can do harder encounters (pvp or pve) so they can get better gear to repeat the process, then that buys into the whole "reward me! reward me!" mentality.I'm just not for gear progression being the goal as opposed to a means to an end. And that end, that meaningful progression, other than perhaps alternate advancement should be your mark upon the world. what you do in the world.
but then again, are we talking about mmo as "world" where players make their mark and create their legacy or are we talking about mmo as "game" where it's all about "events and rewards and tokens, etc?"
I'm even against separation of pvp and pve gear. I think it's very artifical, shallow and pointless.
If an npc troll hits you and a player hits you why should one protect more and another less?
As far as gear, it should give positives and negatives. "light" gear really should allow the player to move quickly but offer some but small protection if they get hit. Heavy gear should offer a lot of protection but should weigh the player down a bit more and be a bit more cumbersome. One of the things I love about Dark Souls is that my Knight can take a lot of damage but really does move slowly and has to connect perfectly or else the light armored enemies just bounce around and wait to get their jabs in. If I do connect with them they take a lot of damage.
So in that case, the gear you choose can either reflect your playstyle or inform your playstyle.
Otherwise, if gear is just cosmetic let's eliminate it all together. Player can pick their "look" and then hack at each other to their heart's content.
I believe players should have positives and negatives. I dont' really believe in the idea of perfect balance but then again I'm not a huge fan of GW2. I like it well enough but it's not really a game I want to log into each day. And then again, as you say, to each his own.
Novice Member
Joined: 10/12/12
Logged in to say great post boxsnd, you hit the nail on the head!
Spotlight Poster
Joined: 6/17/10
post videos OP....
Novice Member
Joined: 8/24/10
I wish GW2 integrated the WvW into their PvE environment, so you have safe pure PvE zones, but there are wars between different areas, something like TERA's political system, without the voting and shat.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
Novice Member
Joined: 8/02/11
Originally posted by Sovrath
Erhm, to clarify if you haven't actually played through GW2, the gear's not entirely equalized as in everyone gets one set of stats and then "Fight!". But there's maximum relative values associated with them. So if you have maximum (exotic) power vitality and toughness armor on, otherwise known as a soldier set, then someone else with a different looking set of armor with exotic level soldier stats will have the same values associated.
But there's also maximum values and superior runes for entirely different sets of armor to coincide with specific builds like power/precision/crit or crit/healing/toughness or what have you. So in that way, the gear does reflect playstyle.You shouldn't be in the situation where someone's soldier set outclasses yours though if you did reach the supposed power ceiling. There's a whole other topic about Ascended gear but I'm not going to get into that.
I think we're getting into muddied territory a bit: The OP, in reference to GW2, is talking specifically about WvWvW which isn't really PvP and I don't believe should be treated like it in the same light. However, I still think what you said about skills is spot on because it should still be about the content, not playing for the reward. Or rather, the goal/reward of WvW should be winning, not getting a power enhancement. That was part of the reason for taking out, as the OP referred to them as, "Relics".
I'm in agreement with some others in this thread that the things you say encourage zergplay are really not as detrimental as you're making them out to be. For example; how does having an objective based gametype favor numbers? Unless you're specifically referring to Keeps (not towers, sentry nodes or supply camps) in which case... why is it bad that a lot of players focus on the biggest and strategically most important objects on the map?
Also, how does the holy trinity allow for more combat scenarios or ways to fight? In almost every circumstance, in most games that have the holy trinity, every encounter is the same. That's where terms like rotation come from; efficiency in executing what is very predictable combat. Each of the things you listed following the comment on the trinity is possible and happen very frequently in GW2 and probably each of the other games so I don't really understand your point here.
Advanced Member
Joined: 4/26/12
Originally posted by ShakyMo
thats really good to know not sure how i missed that one . I do not like to raid anymore its just too much drama with guilds nowadays and its not about skill its about who is the best equiped to do the best dps in most games. Im hoping for pvp progression like DAOC myself but I would not mind a small gear grind if it keeps me up to par with full on pve players that jump into pvp when they are bored of raiding. Crafting gear was awesome in DAOC also until TOA released but then it kinda took most of the templates away replacing them with artifacts. I would love to see it so you can choose between the three of crafting pvp and pve end game gear to be competitive without any different stats for pvp and pve etc. I hated SWTOR , Rift and WOW for this garbage all of them introduced.
Originally posted by Serelisk
The question is: Is PvP more efficient with a zerg or with a group?
In DAoC killing enemies (progressing) as a veteran was much more efficient (and fun) as a group (or solo if stealth class), but as a new player it was more efficient to stay in a zerg. Taking relics was only possible with a huge zerg. Taking keeps could be done with either, depending on time/region/importance of the keep etc. There were always reasons to go out to RvR, even when your realm was getting absolutely destroyed.
In GW2 the only thing that matters are the server scores in the end of the 2 weeks. If your server is far behind most of your server will get discouraged and log out / PvE, while the one server that is ahead it's population will constantly rise, thus making the matchup unbalanced. This may be fixed when they implement progression.
The most efficient (and easiest) way to take keeps, towers etc is zerging. With a group you can take camps surely but taking keeps will take a long time and you will almost always get ambushed by the enemy zerg. Sure you may ninja a keep here and there, but after a few deaths to the enemy zerg most people will get frustrated and either log out or make a zerg of their own.
The holy trinity allows a single group to be more self sufficient. It's not a matter of 1 group + 1 group > 2 groups anymore. It's more complex. Also why would GW2 PvP be less predictable than any MMO with trinity PvP?
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
Long duration CC is the opposite of skillful, it is in fact very cheap and doesn't discourage a zerg at all. Instead you get zergs of CC, which is even less fun than getting bowled over by a zerg.
Originally posted by evilastro
You couldn't be more wrong.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann


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Wind: 9 mph
"In what state is Mount Rushmore located?" "At its southern border, what state aligns with 45 degrees latitude on the map?" (Tennessee, of course!) HUMS Geobee competitors were recently faced with these and many other challenging geography-related questions. On Friday, January 4, at an all-school student assembly, HUMS held its annual National Geographic Geobee competition, coordinated by social studies teachers Sarah Ibson and Ruth Hoogenboom. Initial competitions were conducted in social studies classes. The winners of the in-class competitions were invited to compete in the finals which took place on January 4. Contest finalists included Sally Goodwin, Sarah Boland, Colin Fennelly, Nell Tarno, Jurni DeCasas, Ethan Riddell, Isabel Carr, Seth Davidson, Keegan McKenna and Erin Magill.
The moderator for the final competition was Harwood co-principal Lisa Atwood. After eight challenging rounds of competition, Colin Fennelly ultimately emerged as the winner of the competition with Isabel Carr taking second place. Fennelly will now take a written test to qualify him for the state competition in April. If he wins the states he will have the opportunity to compete in the National Geobee as the Vermont state representative in late spring 2013.


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CONCORD, N.C. – The World Karting Association is pleased to announce the 2013 schedule for its most successful national program, the Mazda / Bridgestone Manufacturers Cup Series.
The Man Cup Series, as it's popularly referred, will again boast a six-race national schedule that visits some of the best sprint karting tracks in the United States.
As always, the upcoming year's tour will kick off in the final days of this calendar year at the Daytona International Speedway Sprint Track. The Margay Sprint Championships will run December 27-30 at The World Center of Racing. The Daytona entry blank will be available Wednesday.
The series will head to Carolina Motorsports Park in Kershaw, S.C., for the third straight year for round two. The event is two weeks later this year – April 5-7 – due to the Florida Winter Tour schedule and the Easter holiday.
Round three is at New Castle Motorsports Park in New Castle, Ind. The event will be May 17-19.
Round four is the 2013 Man Cup Grand Nationals at Michiana Raceway Park in South Bend, Ind. The Grand Nationals will be June 28-30.
The fifth round is at Pittsburgh International Race Complex near Wampum, Pa. The Pitt Race show is August 16-18.
The season will close with a new venue, not far from WKA headquarters in Concord, N.C. On September 27-29 the Man Cup will make a highly anticipated debut at the brand-new Mooresville Motorplex in Mooresville, N.C.
In an effort to space out the events, the 2013 schedule gives teams and families a minimum of six weeks between every event.
All classes with exception to Komet (KPV) Sportsman will run for a single championship. The best nine out of 12 races will be counted, giving families the option to miss a race weekend and still have a real chance at a national championship. Komet Sportsman will run Saturday only and will continue as best five out of six races toward the championship.


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Wednesday, October 9, 2013
Ingredients and Preparation
1 tablespoon
Finely chopped onion
1 cup
Garlic cloves, finely chopped
Celery, diced
1 cup
Curry powder
1 teaspoon
Ground coriander
1/8 teaspoon
Crushed red pepper
1/8 teaspoon
3 cups
Low sodium chicken broth
1 cup
Pumpkin puree
1 can (32 ounces)
Fat-free half-and-half
1 cup
Sour cream and chives for garnish
1. Directions
2. Melt butter in large saucepan over medium-high heat.
3. Add onion, celery, and garlic; cook for 3 to 5 minutes or until tender.
4. Stir in curry powder, coriander, and crushed red pepper; cook for 1 minute.
5. Add water and broth; bring to a boil.
6. Reduce heat to low; cook, stirring occasionally, for 15 to 20 minutes to develop flavors.
7. Stir in pumpkin and half-and-half; cook for 5 minutes or until heated through.
8. Transfer mixture to food processor or blender (in batches, if necessary); cover.
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Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement begins on the sunset of Friday, the 3rd of October and ends the following evening on Saturday, October 4th. In the Hebrew calendar it falls on the 10th of Tishrei.
See also:
Yom Kippur Overview
Fasting on Yom Kippur
Yom Kippur Crash Course
Aish.com's Yom Kippur e-Book


text: Saint Germain Lipstick is a pale pink that's very blue-based, so it almost looks a little lilac-pink. It has an amplified creme finish, and it is part of the permanent range. The color coverage is opaque. MAC Pink Friday is just a little darker. MAC Viva Glam Gaga is not as blue-based. MAC Snob isn't as blue-based and almost has a gray-tint in comparison. MAC All Styled Up is pinker, not as cool-toned. (9, 10, 9, 8.5, 4.5, 4; A-)