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A Strategy for the Center-Left?
J. Peter Nixon August 14, 2012 - 12:05am
John Allen has posted an intriguing column on the future of the center-left within the Catholic Church in the United States. He notes that there are a large number of American Catholics who, while not enamored of recent positions taken by the U.S. bishops, are nevertheless committed to working within the system so to speak. Allen suggests that the center-left could build stronger relationships with the bishops by offering, for example, strong public support for the bishops position on the HHS definition of a religious employer.As he often does, Allen had me nodding along thoughtfully until I came to his penultimate paragraph
Once upon a time, when the tone-setting camp among the bishops came out of center-left circles, it was the conservatives and the center-right that had to be intentional about building relationships. Today the shoe is on the other foot, and showing "surprising support" at least seems a possibility worth pondering.
Allen seems to be suggesting that, once-upon-a-time, conservatives were able to expand their influence among the bishops by building relationships. This is, to put it mildly, a curious reading of history. I think a more accurate assessment would be that conservatives expanded their influence by openly opposing center-left bishops where they could, going around those bishops to Rome where they could not, and doing everything they could to ensure that future bishops would be center-right if not simply right.Consider the debate over the U.S. bishops two major pastoral letters of the 1980s, The Challenge of Peace (1983) and Economic Justice for All (1986). Did conservative opponents of these documents confine themselves to offering surprising support for certain elements while critiquing others? They did not. In addition to complaining bitterly to anyone in Rome who would listen, conservatives also organized public opposition. In response to Economic Justice for All, for example, Michael Novak and Bill Simon drafted (and convinced a number of business leaders to sign) The Lay Letter, which accused the bishops of having an inadequate grasp of the principles of a market economy.The recent debate over the new English translation of the Roman Missal is another case in point. Opponents of the 1998 ICEL translation did not simply dialogue with the bishops who favored it. They went around them, lobbying bishops who were on the fence, encouraging opponents to write letters to both U.S. bishops and various officials in Rome. They supported the work of Vox Clara, which at the time of its formation was an explicit effort to weaken the control of the liturgy committees of the individual episcopal conferences, which were largely center-left in orientation and supportive of the ICELs work.The long-term strategy, of course, has been to replace center-left bishops with men of a more conservative stripe, rendering dialogue unnecessary. At one point, this meant the replacement of center-left bishops like Terrence Cooke with center-right bishops like John OConnor, who combined staunch pro-life advocacy with an equally staunch support of organized labor. The recent trend of appointments is toward even stronger conservatives and may reflect the influence of the American cardinals on the Congregation for Bishops: Law, Stafford, Burke, and Rigali.My point in recounting this history is less to criticize the center-right than to correct Allens misreading of recent ecclesiastical history. The uncomfortable truth is that no-holds-barred theological conflict is a recurrent feature of church history. Am I suggesting, then, that center left Catholics should adopt the bare-knuckled tactics of their conservative counterparts rather than the dialogue favored by Allen?I am not, for the simple reason that I cant imagine it being effective. Nor, however, can I imagine Allens approach yielding any substantive benefits for the center left. The truth is that, like the South after Gettysburg, the left has been defeated and little is left but to negotiate the terms of its surrender.In the 1980s, center-left bishops had to listen to the center-right because they had the ear of Rome. The center-left has the ear of no one. They have nothing that the bishops really need and probably nothing that the bishops want. They have no leverage.Allen suggests that center left probably describes the majority of American Catholics and perhaps a super-majority of those working in Catholic institutions, such as chancery offices, Catholic Charities, etc. This is true, but it is changing. We have had a fair amount of episcopal turnover in California in the last few years, and the trend is unmistakable. Older, largely center-left staff are retiring or leaving and being replaced by younger, more self-consciously orthodox Catholics.Its true that the majority of rank-and-file Catholics are probably center left in orientation. But what of it? Younger Catholics, for the most part, are simply not attached enough to the Church as an institution to think institutionally about their theological commitments. Communal dialogue is something you engage in because you have a community. The majority of younger Catholicslike a majority of younger Christiansare spiritual consumers. If they are dissatisfied, they will choose exit rather than voice.But surely, I hear some readers suggesting, the drifting away of millions of American Catholics will cause the hierarchy to sit up and take notice, in the same way that the loss of the working class in 19th century Europe galvanized the forces of reform within the Church of that time.Perhaps. But that was a different time. Those bishops were living at the beginning of the collapse of European Christianity. Todays bishops are living the aftermath of that collapse. They have no illusions that the faith is Europe and Europe is the faith as Hilaire Belloc once put it. They are fully prepared to see the Church in West decline in size, both relatively and absolutely. Do they truly wish for this outcome? I do not believe that they do. But they do not believe (nor do I, for the record) that any liberalization of the Churchs contested teachings will arrest that decline.Do I mean to suggest that the center-left has no future, that it is, to use Cardinal Georges description of liberal Catholicism, an exhausted project? I do not believe that either. Theologically, the left is that portion of the Church that asks the question is the Gospel being heard? just as the right is that portion of the Church that asks the question is the Gospel being heard?" It goes back to Paul and James and the Council of Jerusalem and the tension will be with us always.In the short term, though (which for most of those reading this means the rest of our lives), those of a center left persuasion within the Church will need to take a very long view. They will need to be able to work creatively in an environment that may well become almost as hostile to them as the anti-Modernist era was to an earlier generation of reformers. It will not be work for those unwilling to suffer under ecclesiastical discipline or for those who take refuge in easy optimism. Anything put forward must be both deeply grounded in the Tradition and intellectually rigorous. Ultimatelyand most importantlythe work will require a deep trust in the work of the Holy Spirit.
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Well said. I imagine John Allen would agree.
Peter --I don't think that the analogy between the South after the Civil War and the center-left today obtains. Yes, both the South and center-left lost, but after the Civil War the North was alive and relatively well, while today the center-right is on an historical losing course as well just as the center-left has been.The big questions are: how and when will the Catholic center-right realize that it too is on the way out? And what can it do about it?Maybe the "Year of Evangelization" will flop as badly in the West as the call for support for religious freedom flopped here this year. We'll see what the Holy Spirit has in mind. Maybe. My guess is that history is pointing south and east for the RCC. Will the Church stay Roman?? We'll know in 500 years or so. (If Earth survives the droughts, shrinking ice floes, population explosion, lack of energy and fertilizer, etc., that is.)
A very thoughtful piece.
Excellent analysis. The only thing I would add is that the South not only surrendered but they made up a new version of history -- the Glorious Cause; "we fought better, the North outspent us"; we fought as gentlemen, they were a bunch of ignorant immigrants, the Myth of Southern Supremacy -- that kept reality at bay for 100 years even if the only thing of value it produced was "Gone with the Wind." Maybe those of us who loved the Vatican Council and believed the Holy Spirit influenced it can tell our children stories about the time when the Church was a light to the world while they tell us how irrelevant our religion is to them.Now I am off to a Mass (memorial of Maximilian Kolbe) that, in its latest iteration, is no longer Englishand on its way to becoming Latin. Sounding like John Boehner talking about anything the Democrats want, the center right said the Church would never ram the English Mass down their throat, and in the end they will get all they want. Let that be a lesson to us.
This is an excellent and most timely reflection.1. In the several decades during which I worked in Washington, though for ICEL, not directly for the USCCB, the US bishops' conference staff as well the vast majority of the staff members of what might be called semi-official Catholic organizations were considered, and were, center-left. (The charge that the bishops' conference staff determined the positions taken by the bishops was, I maintain, unfounded.) The staff of the conference has now moved to the center right, and the same trend, though more slowly, is now gaining force in many of the other Catholic organizations that have their headquarters in Washington. For some, it's a matter of survival.2. I think too that the great decline in the number of religious, women particularly but also men, stills yet another center left voice that had a great influence in the years from 1970 to 2000.3.The center/center left that was in the ascendant in the bishops' conference in the same decades is now decidedly a thing of the past. The Deardens, Quinns, Bernadins, Roaches, Malones, Mays, Pilarcyks are off the scene, most now gone to God. And I would include in this post-conciliar genealogy, though perhaps to a slightly lesser extent, the names Keeler, Pilla, Fiorenza, Gregory. No doubt, some would say good riddance, including a number of the bishops appointed over the last decade and a half.4. Just as an aside on the history of the 1998 revised ICEL Sacramentary, not only were campaigns organized against the revision, but some bishops who were in the minority when the series of favorable votes was taken then went directly to Rome, either to the Congregation for Divine Worship or the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith or both, to represent their disagreement with the majority's canonical decisions. By the time the contention came to a head in the late 1990s, dialogue between the conferences and the Roman authorities was simply impossible. (It was around this time that a USCCB president told the assembled bishops, in closed session, that he was deeply frustrated when he went officially to Rome twice a year to represent the Conference's view only to be told by various Roman officials that this could not be so since "not a few" American bishops had visited Rome in the preceding weeks or months to say the opposite.)5. The retirement of Cardinals Law and Stafford, on reaching eighty, from their various Rome positions, especially the Congregation for Bishops, will, I suspect not make a great difference in US episcopal appointments. Cardinal Rigali will reach eighty in a year and a half; Cardinal Burke in June 2028. Other Americans will in time be appointed as members of the Congregation.In a famous sermon given in the late 1950s, the then Bishop John Wright used as his repeated refrain, "We used to hope." The Emmaus story was obviously his inspiration.
Good analysis. But I would re-frame it. This controversy is best understood as a controversy between people who over-value doctrine, on the one hand, and, on the other, people who value religious faith and spirituality over and above doctrine. Religious faith should not be mistaken for faith in certain doctrines, but as faith in God.However, regardless of how we characterize the Catholics who question the conservative regime in the church, I think that the questioners should keep fighting the good fight against the conservative regime in the church.
I actually think this was the most important sentance of the John Allen articleAs a rule of thumb, it's generally easier to manage disagreements among friends than strangers.
Bruce --Since when is a Christian life supposed to be easy?
"The truth is that, like the South after Gettysburg, the left has been defeated and little is left but to negotiate the terms of its surrender." The left is often at its best in hard times."In the 1980s, center-left bishops had to listen to the center-right because they had the ear of Rome. The center-left has the ear of no one. They have nothing that the bishops really need and probably nothing that the bishops want. They have no leverage." Who knows what the future will bring? We have a frail and aged Pope. The U.S. candidates for the hierarchy promoted recently by the Congregation for Bishops do seem to be overwhelmingly center and far right, but how they might adapt to a change in winds from the Vatican, or further experience in office, or the influence of grace, is yet unclear. The Emmaus reference in John Page's excellent post is much to the point. It is well to take the long view. I was looking at the beginning of the Gospel According to Matthew yesterday, and thinking about the genealogy of Jesus with which it begins. What a mixed bag those ancestors were. Some aliens, some women, some non-Israelites, and many who were often involved in dubious courses of action. But, as my mother used to say when things went wrong, God writes straight with crooked lines. Nil desperandum.
I was just reading a profile of Bishop Liam Cary in Oregon, who replaced the ultra-conservative Bishop Vasa there. Bishop Cary's vita shows a very pastoral person who has spent a lot of his life with the poor and marginalized. There surely must be other recent examples of more moderate bishops coming in after very conservative ones (and vice versa). Maybe it all balances out over time?What has me a little mystified is the extremely strong internet presence of ultra conservative Catholics; it certainly contradicts the assumption that most Catholics are moderate or center-left. A case in point is my own archdiocese- New York. If American Catholics are mostly moderate, it is hard to imagine New York City being less moderate than the rest of the country. But when I read our Cardinal's blog, the huge, huge majority of posts seem to be very conservative, much more conservative than the Cardinal himself, who is no slouch in that area. So where is the actual evidence that most Catholics are center-leftish?
Thank you for this response to Allen's column. I am focused on the sentence : "They have no leverage." As an experienced marriage counselor and a former community organizer, I know the critical necessity to have leverage in bringing all parties "to the table" for any genuine action to be accomplished in any large organization, in most marriages, and in my own heart when I am obstinate. "Common ground" was/is another catch phrase relevant to the current polarizing conflicts in the Church. Am I to conclude that there is no real possibility for this at present, am I missing the suggestion of a common ground? Is there no "third wheel" acting to make a peace accord possible?
So the options that remain seem to be either submit with prayerful obedience, if you are at all serious about your Catholic faith, or leave like the youthful consumer that you are and perhaps always were. Whatever happened to prophetic witness? Or...Are prophets just those naive, "easy optimists," who don't have the stomach for the "hard work" of compromise (or capitulation)? Is it all just strategic politics or, to borrow a turn of phrase from the Right, are we not called to defend the Truth?
fwiw, I suspect that Catholic women, in the aggregate, are center-left, and Catholic men, in the aggregate, are center-right. This accounts, I think, for the preponderance of conservative Catholic commentary on the Internet.
A very thoughtful commentary. My hope (and prayer effort) is that there will be another John XXIII who comes out of the next papal conclave. The successor to BXVI may not even realize his similarity to John at the time of his election, but events and, especially, the influence of the Holy Spirit will hopefully guide him in bringing healing to a splintered Church. And this is picky, picky, picky, but Gettysburg didn't signal the demise of the Confederacy. In hindsight historians saw it as the "high water mark of the Confederacy," but Lee and other Southern generals still had another two years of fight in them before Lee's Army of Northern Virginia was ultimately boxed in by Grant in the area around Appomattox.
I dont know much about theology. I stick to a rather simple and conservative affirmation of the Creed, the 7 sacraments and prayers for the dead.But I have worked for decades on public policy issues inspired by CST. On social insurance, health care, worker rights, assistance to the poor, interracial justice and other issues Ive not only been in accord with the bishops but actively worked with the Bishops conference and worked to make sure these efforts are structured and directed in a way that is not objectionable to the bishops. But recently Ive come to the sad conclusion that the bishops dont really bring much to the table as far as effective advocacy on these issues. For some years Ive been romanticizing how meaningful it is to be able to quote from a USSCB statement on these issues. Reality has finally set in that engaging the bishops doesnt bring much value for the time and effort. It is not so much "surrendering" but just concluding that energy is best spent elsewhere to advance worthwhile initiatives.
Since when is a Christian life supposed to be easy?Ann,You obviously missed his point: friends generally listen and potentially respond, enemies generally dont. So if you want to influence people, it helps to be their friend. That may not be at all easy...
The point about the preponderance of clergy, religious women, Lay Church employees are center/left is correct. However what is not calculated in the piece is how the religious right are perceived as a pain in the ass to this cadre of Catholics who staff the barricades. . More appointments of right bishops embolden the righties ...it increases their complaints both verbal and their obsessive letter writing and postings on the INTERNET. Will the tolerant smiles of the Church staffers eventually turn into grimaces? . Yes..
Allen's three practical examples of how the center-left could demonstrate surprising solidarity with the bishops - on the contraception mandate; over the plight of persecuted Christians overseas; and managing the transition to a global church - are all very good.The distressing case of the LCWR, though, makes me wonder if any activists* on the left have an appetite to be in solidarity with the bishops on anything beyond the very bare minimum.* It's important to note that Allen's column pertains to left/right Catholic *advocacy*. There are a lot of Catholics who don't tune in to ecclesial politics - a negligence, studied or not, that arguably is good for their spiritual life.
Btw, another potential area of solidarity that Allen doesn't mention, possibly because it seems so obvious that perhaps he didn't want to consume precious column space by discussing it, is abortion. Leaving abortion advocacy to the far right is a mistake for a number of reasons.
Peter, A good description in some ways and unsupported and unfounded in other ways. You are going by the number of bishops and not the number of Catholics. Remember the Pew foundation made a study which shows that a vast majority of Catholic like Jesus and God but do not like the bishops. How does that show that the right has won? So while your description describes the problem your conclusions can be seen as quite off the mark.
If this diagnosis is correct (no hope, etc.), perhaps we will see more center left people go to the splinter churches that are springing up in a number of places across the country, composed of Catholics who carry on the Catholic tradition with illicit but not invalid sacraments. This phenomenon flies beneath the radar scope of the bishops, but I see it and I know it is growing. It's not just cranks anymore. Key people in these churches were right there in the mainstream until some issue pushed them over the edge, usually associated with one of the crusading farther to the right bishops. Being very practical people, they don't want to spent the rest of their lives playing a political game (and losing, by the way) when they could be worshipping God with integrity down the street. And who knows? These people could turn out to be the true Church. How's that for putting the shoe on the other foot?
I appreciate Peter's essay greatly as well as Mr Page's commentary.I'm grateful to be older, and less dependent on the good feelings of swimming in a crowd. The hope I have is that fifty years after the anti-Modernist crusade, we had a Council. The hope I have is that after every Council, there were fearmongers and backtrackers. The hope I have is that people like Mary MacKillop and Jeanne d'Arc are saints; their institutional persecutors are forgotten and discredited. The hope I have is working in a parish with college students.I'm grateful not to be working for the institution. I'm grateful I can cite Archbishop Romero about planting and sowing and preparing for a harvest I will not be alive to reap. I'm grateful they can't take away the Scriptures, the music, or the witness of the saints. Maybe it would be nice to see Catholics packing themselves into the pews Sunday after Sunday. But the institution is unprepared for that, and you know: I pity them for their poverty.
The fact remains that this is a very different Catholic church than many of us (Vatican II era) believed it would be at this point in time. I raised a son and a daughter in the church feeling confident that by the time my daughter was grown we would have optional celibacy, women priests, and a more reasoned approach to other issues of gender and sexuality. My daughter is now 32 and has a daughter of her own. She and I both know that these and other hopes are not likely to come to fruition in our lifetimes and she has decided she cannot raise a female child in this church. At the age of 62, I not only cannot encourage her to remain in the church, I find I cannot remain myself. I have lost all respect for the leadership of the church that can only change when it suits the very suspect agenda of an all male, celibate hierarchy. I am angry at those I shared the pews with for "going along to get along" with Father, Bishop, and Curia when it compromises their true beliefs and practices. So until something significant changes (such as "another John XXIII") I am a Catholic refugee in the Episcopal Church.
Firstly, I have to stipulate that it is very difficult for me to take almost anything John Allen writes seriously. His journalistic virginity was long ago traded away for maintaining access to his Vatican sources leaving Allen always pushing the party line. Like any reporter on deadline, Allen is nothing without his sources better to keep those sources well lubricated, I suppose.On the other hand, J. Peter Nixons analysis of the denouement of the so-called center-left of the Catholic Church, while intriguing and thoughtful is actually riddled with holes much like Swiss cheese.I'll leave it to others on this blog-stream to critique the specific finer points of Nixons historical and political renderings. Nixons apparent assumptions about the current internal church political geography are what I have the most difficulty with.[Adopting Nixons system of classification] If the churchs center-right is winning [according to Nixon this is winning?!?], then it is indeed the classic definition of Pyrrhic victory.The right-wing reactionary hegemony that has controlled the church hierarchy, and driven the agenda, really since JP1 mysteriously died after only a 33-day papacy, has really driven the Catholic Church over the cliff and into the abyss.Euphemistic thinking such as being [prepared to see the Church in the West decline] is really more akin to putting lipstick on a pig. Nixon is wrong to assume that the center-left is in decline because the center-right is ascendant. Or vice versa, for that matter.The view from my corner of the vineyard: An inexorable evolution toward a Peoples' Church has already begun - the evidence has surrounded us for a very long time. Like the primitive Christians of the 1st and 2nd centuries, Catholics today are struggling toward a new enlightenment. This new church will not be achieved by politics or by diplomacy. But it will be achieved. It may take years, decades, even centuries for Catholics to reach it, but we will reach it.And all of us must help: Continue to teach. Pass on the Beatitudes and corporal works of mercy to new generations. Work for the day when every voice can speak aloud new ideas in our own church again. To paraphrase the apostle Paul: I planted the seed, [John 23rd] watered it, but God makes it grow." (1 Cor 3:6)
I don't see why it is necessary, as the post does here, to assume that the right/left political divide should be applied to liturgical debates. Those issues ought to be rather orthogonal.True, political left-leaning people have tended to be the loudest voices complaining about the new liturgical translation, but there is no inherent or logical reason that being a political liberal would make someone angry at the thought of translating "et cum spiritu tuo" or "Ecclesiae suae sanctae" accurately for the first time. Nor is there any inherent or logical reason that a political conservative would want an overly Latinate version of a few prayers. The fact that any of those positions coincide, for the moment, is really nothing more than a coincidence.
If they are dissatisfied, they will choose exit rather than voice.There is no way to "voice" in the Catholic church.Women are not even allowed at the decision making level in the church.I left the church. The sex abuse crisis did it for me. I did not see consequences for the bishops, Cardinal law got a promotion out of what he did!I did not see any changes in the hierarchy of the church.I loved the Church. But I can no longer abide the moribund nature, the closing in and almost glee heard when some talk about the church getting smaller and the "real Catholics" will carry the church into the future. I hope they are happy, because they will not have the clergy to minister to the parishes.I prefer a church that will address the problems and concerns of the century I live in and take us back to the middle ages.The Reformation should have taught the church a valuable lesson; it appears they did not learn it.
Again, we have to remember that Allen and even Peter are reacting to writing and spin. I am surprised that someone like Peter would give credit to power moves rather than rely on solid research like the pew study. The new translation and religious liberty movement do not reflect the whole church.
My hope (and prayer effort) is that there will be another John XXIII_______________We would do very well to have a Pope proclaim --[The] Church must once more reaffirm that teaching authority of hers which never fails, but will endure until the end of time. . . . "The major interest of the Ecumenical Council is this: that the sacred heritage of Christian truth be safeguarded and expounded with greater efficacy. . . . "Its intention is to give to the world the whole of that doctrine which, notwithstanding every difficulty and contradiction, has become the common heritage of mankindto transmit it in all its purity, undiluted, undistorted. It is a treasure of incalculable worth, not indeed coveted by all, but available to all men of good will. And our duty is not just to guard this treasure, as though it were some museum-piece and we the curators, but earnestly and fearlessly to dedicate ourselves to the work that needs to be done in this modern age of ours, pursuing the path which the Church has followed for almost twenty centuries. . . .What is needed at the present time is a new enthusiasm, a new joy and serenity of mind in the unreserved acceptance by all of the entire Christian faith, without forfeiting that accuracy and precision in its presentation which characterized the proceedings of the Council of Trent and the First Vatican Council. What is needed, and what everyone imbued with a truly Christian, Catholic and apostolic spirit craves today, is that this doctrine shall be more widely known, more deeply understood, and more penetrating in its effects on mens moral lives. What is needed is that this certain and immutable doctrine, to which the faithful owe obedience, be studied afresh and reformulated in contemporary terms. For this deposit of faith, or truths which are contained in our time-honored teaching is one thing; the manner in which these truths are set forth (with their meaning preserved intact) is something else. . . ."The Church's anxiety to promote and defend truth springs from her conviction that without the assistance of the whole of revealed doctrine man is quite incapable of attaining to that complete and steadfast unanimity which is associated with genuine peace and eternal salvation. For such is God's plan. He 'wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.'-- Blessed Pope John, Opening Address to the Council, October 11, 1962 (emphasis added)
I agree with Susan. Past results are no guarantee of future performance. The American church, with Rome's cooperation/approval, surfaced Weakland, Mahony and Bernardin before; it may do so again.
Didn't John Allen get his knuckles wrapped by Cardinal Martino when he suggested that there were red and blue congregations in the Vatican as an allusion to red and blue states.He should keep partisan discourse of that type out of the church. We should find different descriptors.
Jim Jenkins (3:38) What will the People's Church do about the pope? He has been there in one form or another from the start, and Jesus apparently expected him to be there forever. That does not presuppose the Vatican, the Swiss Guard, the Prada red slippers, the gentlemen carrying him on his chair, the bowing and scraping, the royal designations and foofarah. But the Catholic Church does indeed anticipate always having a central authority lodged in a person.Bill Mazzella (5:05) The new rendering of the Mass in Latglish does not reflect the whole Church, but it does reflect what the whole Church has to pretend it believes. If it pulls out a line from old-fashioned melodrama (don't you ever enter under my roof again) that no English-speaking person ever said except on a 19th century stage or in a 20th century spoof, that's it. No argument.If the bishops of the United States would rather pander to the Fox news cycle than analyze the American political system, well, heck, it's what the mainstream media do anyway. No argument.As Diane said, there is no way to "voice" against it.
Vatican II was something that I accepted with some trepidation, since my Catholic education (grammar, high school and college) was pre-Vatican II and, although excellent for its time, provided me with very little preparation for what the documents were saying. However, after further study in graduate school, I went heart and soul into the spirit that was ecumenical, affirming of the laity, to peace and justice, and liturgically understandable.I decided that was the way that I wanted to live out my days in the Church. Now, to be honest, I feel betrayed - not by the church but by the leadership. I resent being told that I am pro-abortion since I support a womens right to choose, as abhorrent I think abortion is. I resent Fortnights for Freedom supported and subsidized by Catholics who have a Republican party agenda.I resent being told that I am not a Faithful Catholic if I do not vote for a Republican.Here is my pledge:- I will not leave my church and attend St. Mattress on Sunday, even though I am tempted. - I will continue to demand accountability of Church leadership for the clergy sexual abuse scandal. - I will stand with the sisters in both words and actions.- I will support any cause that furthers the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount and Matthew 25:25-31.Finally (Commonweal editor you can eliminate this last comment), I will not allow myself to be affected by an American cardinal in the Curia, who likes to get all duded up in satin and lace like a life size, animated Infant Jesus of Prague.
As the Chaplain in an inpatient hospice facility where 45% of our admitted patients die, usually within 3-7 days, I find all these political metaphors irrelevant. While the hierarchy argues about the arrangement of deck chairs on their "Titanic" and who gets to sit in them, the Gospel is being preached in the health care institutions, jails and outreach centers in the cities and towns of our country. And I must tell you: at the point of sacramental need, no one has ever asked me about clerical celibacy, birth control or the intricacies of canon law--unless, of course, they have conflated God with the Roman Catholic Church and live in terror of both. But many seek the healing Grace of prayer and the sacraments from which they feel excluded because they don't see the institutional Church as a healing, reconciling body. I was ordained in a small, ecumenical Catholic community, but find myself acting as explainer and apologist for the RC Church quite often. And I wonder why the leaders of such a venerable institution seem content to persist in dragging it toward the "dustbin of history" (apologies to Trotsky).
Bruce and Thorin --I apologize for getting your names mixed up. I do know you're not the same person. I'm afraid I have to disagree about it being easier to disagree with friends. Sometimes I find it harder. When you do, it often comes as a surprise to the friend, and if it is about a fundamental you risk weakening the bond you shared before. Nobody likes a "turncoat". Sometimes the other thinks you were really a hypocrite all along. I had some friends who were twins. When they were adolescents they discovered much to their complete surprise and horror that they actually disagreed about some fundamentals. They were terribly hurt. Their friendship did survive, but it took lot of growing up.I think this is part of the bitterness that some liberal and conservative Catholics have towards each other. Each side thinks the other has sold out or given in to something or other. We can't believe that the people we used to think were good, sensible Roman Catholics like us turned out to be, well, what? Weak? "Unfaithful"? Selfish? Baby-killers? Childish conformists? Revolutionaries? Libertines? Calvinists who say the Rosary?I think we all have to realize that there probably never was as much unanimity of dogmatic belief among Catholics as we assumed. What happened was, I think, people who had some problems with what they had been taught just kept their mouths shut for fear of being barred from the Sacraments or at least being ostracised within their own family or neighborhood or whatever. Now it's sort of like the neo-atheists who are now coming out of their closets because it has become socially tolerable to be an atheist, at least in some places.
This too, will pass. Unfortunately I am turning 70 and probably will not live to see it pass. This poses a dilemma - do we just grin and bear it until relieved by death, or do we begin to try to recapture the high moral ground and see this fundamentalism and authoritarianism begin to erode. Our kids have already spoken with their feet. Most of us did all the right things as Catholic parents in raising them in the faith. But alas, it is nigh impossible to overcome their discouragment amd disillusionment with the church. Our apologies to them for the bad and rude behavior fall on deaf ears. They and our grandchildren will not be back nor will they be the faithful in the pews by 2020. Jesus wept!
Helen -- your hatred of Cardinal Burke, combined with your description of how you close your eyes and consent to legalized murder, illustrates the great divide in the Church right now.Young Catholics, among the conservatives and traditionalists, support the current direction of the Church, while Baby Boomers and older liberals do not. Perhaps it is because the last 40-50 years have been an absolute failure in nearly every regard, and restoring successful things (and, yes, Mass attendance is a good measure of success) is attractive to those born after Vatican II.The Church, under the current pope, is focusing on the big things. The things that matter. The right to life and the holy sacrifice of the Mass are among the biggest.We are going to see a lot more of this divide. The difference, though, between the Church population and the population of U.S. states is that most of the "blue" ideology in the Church will be dead in the next 20 years. In fact, I predict Commonweal will cease to print in three to five years, and will likely fade away as a website in about 15-20 years.As your generation used to say, the times they are a-changin'.
Kenneth J; Wolfe:I do not HATE Cardinal Burke. I just don't like his style.And I am PRO-LIFE and want to find ways to make some women who do not share that view to be pro-life as well.
"Young Catholics, among the conservatives and traditionalists, support the current direction of the Church, ---"They most certainly will be willing to obey, pray (so long as the Latinish is there) but will they step up to the plate and pay the way their ancestors did? Will they commit to the long haul once it goes against their icons and revered leaders such as Burke?Or will they do as so many of their generation have done and, if it doesn't provide them facebook, twitter and gaming instant gratification, will they move on to the next form of personal satisfaction."--- do we begin to try to recapture the high moral ground and see this fundamentalism and authoritarianism begin to erode."There is another option that so very many people have chosen: voluntary exile. There are many ways to have a "smaller, purer" church, and one way is to drive out all who are not part of the frozen chosen beholden to the current crop of ecclesiastical puppet-masters.
The rise of fundamentalism across all major religions today is also a factor that must be taken into account. I don't mean to diminish attention to the internal dynamics peculiar to Catholicism, but there is also a bigger picture which is framed by reactions to postmodernity, with authoritarian solutions on the one side and fragmented fluidity on the other. The "success" of the Catholic right in seizing leadership via the clerical structure is part of this bigger picture. The shift is emphatically not, as Kenneth J. Wolfe would have us believe, simply a matter of demographics as a new generation rises. That's a myth, and it has been disproven by studies of the age groups in question. Plenty of the young people whom he so confidently relies upon to set things right in the Church are not by any means flocking to Mass on Sunday and are, if anything, more variable in their moral standards.
Tom Blackburn @ 5:30:I think Jesus promised that the Spirit will be with us until the end of time. I don't remember seeing any guarantee that being with us guarantees any specific organizational form(s), particularly those that are so very far from what was envisioned by the initial group of Christian communities. The size and existence of the Roman Catholic Church is as much a result of the rise of Islam with corresponding decline or elimination of a wide variety of Christianities that existed at that time as it is of any special divine imprimatur. Read Philip Jenkins' "The Lost History of Christianity" for a dose of reality. To quote him (page 25): "The uprooting (of the Asian Churches between 1200 & 1500 by Islam) created the Christianity that we commonly think of today as the true historical norm, but which, in reality was the product of the elimination of alternative realities. Christianity did indeed become 'European', but about a millennium later than most people think."The current role and form of the papacy is as much a result of the loss of the Papal States as it is of any sign of God's favor.
@ Tom Blackburn: "What to do with the pope?"Not something that I think about a lot. Since the papacy now controls unbelievable amounts of money, I suspect that the papacy will be hanging around as long as the tourists keep flooding the Vatican, and until their fat investment portfolios run out of money in a century or two.If the People had the determinative voice in choosing which individuals to play out that role, I would have no objection. Really for all hierarchs, Catholics need to learn to develop a deep benign neglect for the papacy. The best that we could do is IGNORE the pope - like with any narcissist, either positive or negative attention will only encourage them. Face it, Catholic hierarchs are really a bunch of scared old men facing their own extinction who increasingly seem to be striking out in bitterness at women, gays, married folk and other vulnerable people. It seems they get up every morning trying to figure out who they can marginalize today.Not something I glory in, yet sadly if Catholics have learned anything from the last forty years of corruption and complicity in scandal it is that the Catholic hierarchy is both irrelevant and alienated from the everyday lives of Catholics.Isn't it about time that Catholics do the adult thing and let the hierarchs go? Catholics need to treat them like we would our cranky, batty uncles who prefer to troll around in the attic. BTW: Jesus had nothing to do with pope(s) - there are at least several centuries of separation between the origins of the papacy and Jesus. Jesus, and his prophet-cousin John, were more about establishing a new "Kingdom of Heaven on Earth" based mostly on Jewish messianic traditions. Paul followed by Peter were the ones who took off for Rome - Jesus' brother, James hung around Jerusalem until he was killed waiting for Jesus to return in glory. The life and culture of primitive Jewish Christians, called Ebionites, really took a turn for the worse when future Roman emperor Titus saked Jerusalem (70 C.E.), destroying Herod's Temple and carrying off menorahs as booty back to Rome. The papacy developed out of the experience of the Roman church surviving persecution and emerging from the catacombs with rituals and mythologies that honored the blood of the martyrs.
Jim J., you still have the "You are Peter" quote to deal with. Even in the early Church, that was a biggie. All the Gospels, but particularly Mark and John, prepare us for a pope who doesn't measure up to the Master. But the original disciples, who had been exposed directly to Jesus' teaching, don't seem to have tried to depose Peter. And papal history shows that Peter's successors were not all Charles Borromeo (and that C.B. never made pope). Jim McC, Jenkins is fascinating. I tried to indicate in my earlier response that the fact of the pope does not necessarily imply all the regal nonsense that is carried on in the contemporary church. If Antioch were still all it was originally cracked up to be, I am sure popes would disport themselves differently. But it isn't, which seems to be a case of, as someone mentioned earlier, God writing straight with crooked lines.On a wholly different analytical plane, there seems to be the makings of a half dozen new, improved churches in the comments above. If you were going to incorporate those thought into church reform you would need a central authority to synchronize the different parts. Even Vatican II had a pope. The alternative is to let everyone go his own way. But then you have Protestantism, and there is no need to reinvent it.
Mike Evans --Most of the young have left or are leaving to join the ranks of the unchurched, and they won't be back to this particular version of the Church. But I have seen the values they were brought up with persist in them and their children, and even into the grandchildren's generation. But much is lost, and I weep for their losses. I think that the worst of it for them is that they have only a very sketchy notion of God, and certainly they have no view of their own lives as being pointed toward Him. Many people here complain about the inadequacies of theology (including me), but a faith without even the rudiments of theology can be very, very thin and not too relevant, even when it's sincere. They don't see their lives as part of a whole historical narrative of great import with glorified Jesus at the end with His a peaceable kingdom for all of us who make it there. No doubt, this is one reason that suicide among them (even among 8 year olds!) is on the rise. But their basic values are generally very solid.Sorry to sound so thoroughly negative. I'm not completely pessimistic. Not all is lost. There is the Holy Spirit. And my impression of the Church in Asia is rather encouraging. The Australian Church, or some of its members, even bishops, have been showing some proper autonomy for some years now. About 5 years ago or so they talked back to Rome as a group! I forget the issue, but the point is they know their proper place. They have Mary McKillop and Bishop Robinson giving them excellent example. Plus their universities are turning out some fine philosophers who can get their thoughts churning, which is good for theology. We'll see. The West isn't the whole of the world.
What would the conversation be like if there were a Center-Center that nailed the many style similarities of the Center-Left and the Center-Right and called out the reciprocal contempt?
"As the Chaplain in an inpatient hospice facility where 45% of our admitted patients die, usually within 3-7 days, I find all these political metaphors irrelevant. While the hierarchy argues about the arrangement of deck chairs on their Titanic and who gets to sit in them, the Gospel is being preached in the health care institutions, jails and outreach centers in the cities and towns of our country. And I must tell you: at the point of sacramental need, no one has ever asked me about clerical celibacy, birth control or the intricacies of canon lawunless, of course, they have conflated God with the Roman Catholic Church and live in terror of both."Larry Hansen at 5:47 pm today.This is the real church.
What would the conversation be like if there were a Center-Center that nailed the many style similarities of the Center-Left and the Center-Right and called out the reciprocal contempt?Like this funny emo philips routine - "The Heretic"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0zIv2I37UU
Thanks, John Page. One other item - can remember Crdl Bernardin's Common Ground Project and the events around it. My memory of an earthquake is when Bernardin's project was rudely squashed by O'Connor, Law, and company. that for me is when the hierarchy changed from center-left to right. You were closer to events and can probably shed light on this internal struggle?
Helen; Saying you find abortion to be abhorant but people have the right to choose to commit this abhorrent act makes no sense ethically;it is to legitimize both morally and legally what you profess to believe is morally illigitimate[abhorant.If you find it abhorrent-why? If it's because you believe that it is the taking of an innocent life and in some cases [later fetal developement as oppossed to early embyonic stage] the infliction of pain unto death of an innocent life and that is self evidently wrong-then how or why do you believe it is right or just to allow people to choose to commit such abhorant acts?Unfortunatly too many catholics are publically taking this stand which of course is a pro[legal] abortion stand followed by rhetoric [personally i find it abhorrent]intended to disavow your previous statement[that people have the right to commit the" abhorent "act of infliction suffering and death on innocernt humans in the womb]Come on!
I like the new mass translation, and I like how popes John Paul II and now Benedict, have so thoughtfully considered the Second Vatican Council, that they see Church history as a continuum and how they stress that Vatican II was not a rupture with the past.
rose-ellen: To say that people have a right to sin is not ethically incoherent. Simplistically put, that's what God did when he gave people free-will. Was God legitimizing sin by making it possible for us to commit it?


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Kashmir Hill, Forbes Staff
Welcome to The Not-So Private Parts where technology & privacy collide
Every time you go shopping, you share intimate details about your consumption patterns with retailers. And many of those retailers are studying those details to figure out what you like, what you need, and which coupons are most likely to make you happy. Target, for example, has figured out how to data-mine its way into your womb, to figure out whether you have a baby on the way long before you need to start buying diapers.
Charles Duhigg outlines in the New York Times how Target tries to hook parents-to-be at that crucial moment before they turn into rampant — and loyal — buyers of all things pastel, plastic, and miniature. He talked to Target statistician Andrew Pole — before Target freaked out and cut off all communications — about the clues to a customer's impending bundle of joy. Target assigns every customer a Guest ID number, tied to their credit card, name, or email address that becomes a bucket that stores a history of everything they've bought and any demographic information Target has collected from them or bought from other sources. Using that, Pole looked at historical buying data for all the ladies who had signed up for Target baby registries in the past. From the NYT:
[Pole] ran test after test, analyzing the data, and before long some useful patterns emerged. Lotions, for example. Lots of people buy lotion, but one of Pole's colleagues noticed that women on the baby registry were buying larger quantities of unscented lotion around the beginning of their second trimester. Another analyst noted that sometime in the first 20 weeks, pregnant women loaded up on supplements like calcium, magnesium and zinc. Many shoppers purchase soap and cotton balls, but when someone suddenly starts buying lots of scent-free soap and extra-big bags of cotton balls, in addition to hand sanitizers and washcloths, it signals they could be getting close to their delivery date.
Or have a rather nasty infection…
As Pole's computers crawled through the data, he was able to identify about 25 products that, when analyzed together, allowed him to assign each shopper a "pregnancy prediction" score. More important, he could also estimate her due date to within a small window, so Target could send coupons timed to very specific stages of her pregnancy.
One Target employee I spoke to provided a hypothetical example. Take a fictional Target shopper named Jenny Ward, who is 23, lives in Atlanta and in March bought cocoa-butter lotion, a purse large enough to double as a diaper bag, zinc and magnesium supplements and a bright blue rug. There's, say, an 87 percent chance that she's pregnant and that her delivery date is sometime in late August.
And perhaps that it's a boy based on the color of that rug?
So Target started sending coupons for baby items to customers according to their pregnancy scores. Duhigg shares an anecdote — so good that it sounds made up — that conveys how eerily accurate the targeting is. An angry man went into a Target outside of Minneapolis, demanding to talk to a manager:
"My daughter got this in the mail!" he said. "She's still in high school, and you're sending her coupons for baby clothes and cribs? Are you trying to encourage her to get pregnant?"
The manager didn't have any idea what the man was talking about. He looked at the mailer. Sure enough, it was addressed to the man's daughter and contained advertisements for maternity clothing, nursery furniture and pictures of smiling infants. The manager apologized and then called a few days later to apologize again.
(Nice customer service, Target.)
On the phone, though, the father was somewhat abashed. "I had a talk with my daughter," he said. "It turns out there's been some activities in my house I haven't been completely aware of. She's due in August. I owe you an apology."
What Target discovered fairly quickly is that it creeped people out that the company knew about their pregnancies in advance.
"If we send someone a catalog and say, 'Congratulations on your first child!' and they've never told us they're pregnant, that's going to make some people uncomfortable," Pole told me. "We are very conservative about compliance with all privacy laws. But even if you're following the law, you can do things where people get queasy."
Bold is mine. That's a quote for our times.
So Target got sneakier about sending the coupons. The company can create personalized booklets; instead of sending people with high pregnancy scores books o' coupons solely for diapers, rattles, strollers, and the "Go the F*** to Sleep" book, they more subtly spread them about:
"Then we started mixing in all these ads for things we knew pregnant women would never buy, so the baby ads looked random. We'd put an ad for a lawn mower next to diapers. We'd put a coupon for wineglasses next to infant clothes. That way, it looked like all the products were chosen by chance.
"And we found out that as long as a pregnant woman thinks she hasn't been spied on, she'll use the coupons. She just assumes that everyone else on her block got the same mailer for diapers and cribs. As long as we don't spook her, it works."
So the Target philosophy towards expecting parents is similar to the first date philosophy? Even if you've fully stalked the person on Facebook and Google beforehand, pretend like you know less than you do so as not to creep the person out.
Duhigg suggests that Target's gangbusters revenue growth — $44 billion in 2002, when Pole was hired, to $67 billion in 2010 — is attributable to Pole's helping the retail giant corner the baby-on-board market, citing company president Gregg Steinhafel boasting to investors about the company's "heightened focus on items and categories that appeal to specific guest segments such as mom and baby."
Target was none too happy about Duhigg's plans to write this story. They refused to let him go to Target headquarters. When he flew out anyway, he discovered he was on a list of prohibited visitors.
I think most readers of the excellent piece will find it both unsettling and unsurprising. With all the talk these days about the data grab most companies are engaged in, Target's collection and analysis seem as expected as its customers' babies. But with their analysis moving into areas as sensitive as pregnancy, and so accurately, who knows how else they might start profiling Target shoppers? The store's bulls-eye logo may now send a little shiver of fear down the closely-watched spines of some, though I can promise you that Target is not the only store doing this. Those people chilled by stores' tracking and profiling them may want to consider going the way of the common criminal — and paying for far more of their purchases in cash.
A must read: How Companies Learn Your Secrets [New York Times] drawn from Charles Duhigg's forthcoming book, The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business
I'll never shop there again.
Just don't think Target is alone in this. If you stop shopping everywhere this is happening, you'll have a short list of places to go.
They are all that way, you can't opt out of it unless you shop in cash ONLY, no checks, no debit cards, no credit cards, and never ever never return anything anywhere. All the major stores are this way now.
This isn't a bad thing, necessarily. The concept of presenting discounts and coupons on items we will need (i.e. diapers if pregnant) is beneficial to the consumers pockets. Target gets the business for investing in the research instead of the consumer heading to a competitor's store.
Now sending a "congrats your preggo" coupon book is not going to bide well with consumers.
And if you run a business, know that your competitors are doing this.
As a consumer, I (pretty much) like the trend. Sending me a coupon for golf balls is a waste, but sending me a coupon for sailing gear would be a winner.
Why wouldn't you want to shop at a store that gives you better coupons for free? I can understand your concern to a point, but I don't think you've fully thought this through. They're not diving through your dumpster for used condoms, just statistics. More companies should use stats to their advantage. I might choose to invest in Target just based in knowing that they're seeking out any advantage they can in tough economic times. This is the same type of uninformed criticism that Facebook regularly gets. People talk about Facebook sharing data with companies through ads, but regardless of whether people use the types of companies listed at http://www.facebookfansreviews.com/ or Facebook ads directly, no company advertising on Facebook is getting access to any personally identifiable information through ads. It's not in Facebook's interest to let this data get leaked out and its not in Target's interest for this data to get leaked out either. I understand your concern to a point, but if you sit and think this through, you'll realize that you're getting extra coupons targeted to your needs for free. Why wouldn't you want that?
See those sharing links that Forbes installed on the left side of the page? Are you logged into Facebook right now? If you are, or even if you were recently, then Facebook knows you visited this page. They'll collect and analyze that data and sell it.
And Forbes.com just helped them. So while you're reading these comments and getting upset at the new commercial/social media universe, you're also participating in it.
Don't think everyone and their brother isn't mining all the data they can from you. Why do you think stores want you to use "reward cards"?
The only way to avoid this is to pay everything in cash and don't give your name to any store.
Including this site: http://www.cookiecert.com/cookies-for-forbes.com
They all do it. Don't be psychotic. If you want to stay anonymous, use cash with every transaction and reject all offers of frequent shopper cards, however, be prepared to pay more.
Why would this discourage you from shopping (aside from the author's final tone making this seem creepier than it is). There's a difference between a guy in a bulls-eye logo ninja suit sitting in your bushes and spying on you and your lifestyle, and a guy in an office running a statistical analysis on thousands of customers' shopping patterns. It's no different then when you log into Amazon and it tells you similar things that customers have purchased based on your shopping cart. It's designed to sell you what you need, and not what you don't. They don't care about your deep dark secrets, they care about being a better retailer than W-mart.
Or share a rewards card with a friend, or group of friends.
Disinformation is better than lack of information.
I rather think you'll have a long list of small, local, mom-and-pop businesses actually. It will probably cost more, take more time, but at least you can shake the hand that you're really doing business with.
Even if you're not logged in and don't have an account Facebook may still be creating a profile of you: http://www.yro.slashdot.org/story/11/10/18/1429223/facebook-is-building-shadow-profiles-of-non-users
Ya I really hate getting great coupons on the things I need the most exactly when I need them. Keep sending me junk offers for things I will never buy instead.

subset: commoncrawl


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I wonder what percentage of the population the Chinese actually have that practice thieving as a career choice? And I thought they had their own pirated...I mean version of the Iphone for sale at a fraction of the cost. At least, it looks like an Iphone, doesn't it?
China Syndrome: iPhones Stolen From Chinese Factory, Then Sold on Grey Market.
Psst! Hey, buddy. Yeah, you! Over here. You want hot merchandise? These here iPhones just ahem fell off the truck today. Oh these are real beauties too. Fresh from from the factory, as they say. Get'em while you can because my supplies are rather limited, if you catch my meaning, and the Chinese Police are very interested in my wares. Meet me tonight behind the workers dormitory and we can discuss this further.
Have something to say about this story? Leave a comment! Need help with something else? Ask in our forums!
Reader comments
China Syndrome: iPhones Stolen From Chinese Factory, Then Sold on Grey Market.
Where can I find this "black market?"
wholesalers in china get official iphones buy getting workers to accumalate them and bring them over the boarder where they are bought for a measly sum and sold at a cheap price to the public.
chinese wholesale is risky
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Grambling players refuse to travel, game canceledBy DAVID BRANDT
The Associated Press | October 19,2013JACKSON, Miss. Grambling canceled its football game against Jackson State after Gramblings disgruntled players refused to travel to Jackson for the game Saturday.
Jackson State officials announced the cancellation Friday night. Athletic department spokesman Wesley Peterson told The Associated Press that Grambling officials contacted Jackson State about 5 p.m. CDT to inform them of the decision.
Grambling spokesman Will Sutton had said earlier in a text to the AP that there would be no forfeit and that Grambling officials were trying to determine the next step to take.
Apparently, nothing could be worked out so that the game could be played. Grambling officials have not released a statement on the cancellation.
Southwestern Athletic Conference Commissioner Duer Sharp said according to league rules, Grambling will forfeit and the school will be fined.
Ive been in contact with the schools and they informed me the game is going to be canceled, Sharp said. Its just a very disappointing situation when something like this happens. But well do everything we can with these schools to reach an understanding moving forward.
Fridays apparent player boycott was the latest in three days of upheaval for Gramblings proud program which rose to prominence under coach Eddie Robinson. Several media outlets have reported that players did not attend practice on Wednesday and Thursday because of issues with program and school leadership.
Grambling (0-7) has changed coaches twice in about two months. Doug Williams was fired two games into the season and replaced by George Ragsdale, who was reassigned Thursday and replaced by Dennis Dirt Winston.
The game is Jackson States homecoming and could hurt the school financially. The Grambling-Jackson State matchup usually draws very well an announced crowd of more than 21,000 attended the game in Jackson in 2011.
Jackson State spokeswoman Jean Cook said the school would still have homecoming festivities, featuring the homecoming parade, a football scrimmage and extended band performance. The school said its working on a process to refund tickets.
Its not ideal, Cook said. But were trying to make the best of things.
Louisiana state senator Rick Gallot, a Democrat from Ruston and a Grambling graduate, says he hopes a resolution can still be reached.
I am still optimistic that not only will the situation with the scheduled game with Jackson State be resolved and the teams will play, but I am also optimistic that leadership issues and the concerns of the student-athletes will all be fleshed out and addressed and well be able to return to a semblance of normalcy on campus, Gallot said.MORE IN Wire SportsGREEN BAY, Wis. Clay Matthews understood why everyone was so concerned. Full StoryTORONTO David Price was blown away by the reception he got in his Toronto debut. Full Story
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Do you ever seek out the river (or lake or ocean) to relax and unwind? Join us to celebrate our partnership with the Deschutes River Conservancy by snapping a photo of your favorite body of water. Upload the photo to Instagram with the hashtag #fortheriver.


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Building the Suomi just got easier!
I am now offering my Suomi FCG and striker system as drop in parts. You send your FCG for exchange - or if you wish I will convert and return your unit. The striker and recoil spring assembly is outright purchase.
Some minor fitting is required as each home modified Suomi is a bit different.
It is not yet BATF approved but it is in the process.
More info on my web site - http://www.gunbuilds.com


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DOBSON — The Surry County Board of Commissioners reconvened its Monday night meeting Tuesday afternoon, changing hats to serve as the newly-minted board of directors of the county's Department of Social Services.
And those hats soon became heavy as they got their first taste of how things are done.
The meeting was the first with the board of commissioners serving as the board for the department after a July 15 meeting where commissioners voted to annul the existing five-member board and assume control of "all powers, responsibilities and duties performed by the former DSS board."
While the meeting was a chance for the board to get its feet wet and learn a little bit about how the department works, many of the questions from the board revolved around ensuring the department's clients are eligible for and deserve the benefits they receive.
As Interim Director Harry Maney touched on the number of county residents receiving subsidized child care, pointed questions were asked.
"I've been told by the public that there are people who receive these benefits who aren't working," said Commissioner Paul Johnson.
"It all comes back to eligibility," added Commissioner Larry Phillips. "Without knowing the requirements and intricacies of the programs, it's difficult to know what's going on."
Board Chair Eddie Harris said the board wants to take a little more control and ensure the benefits are going to those who need them.
"Every dollar that isn't being used responsibly could be going toward education or other needed services," he said.
But the meeting was more of an overview of the programs offered by the department, a move designed to familiarize the new board with the inner workings of the department.
Housekeeping issues like when and where the board will meet and who will serve as secretary dominated the meeting, but the new board made it clear that things like how services are funded are paramount on their minds.
"Does this board have any control as to the parameters and eligibility for these programs?" Harris asked.
Maney said they didn't.
"If you continue receiving funding for running state and federal programs, those criteria are set elsewhere," he said.
But the board made it clear that they wanted to learn as much as possible, although they acknowledged the ins and outs of each program are very complicated due to the plethora of associated regulations.
"The key word for me is baby steps," Harris said. "It's going to be a slow process learning about this department and how things are done."
"You're always dealing with three levels of government when dealing with social services," Maney pointed out.
Phillips agreed the new board will have to learn a little bit at a time, but noted its goal is to ensure all funding the county receives is spent properly.
"This is a mess," he said. "Someone complicated this process real well.
"I like the idea of baby steps, but the big thing for us centers around eligibility," Phillips added. "That's what I want to deal with. There is a public suspicion of fraud, and we want to ensure that these resources are being spent properly."
Reach Keith Strange at firstname.lastname@example.com or 719-1929.


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Barbara has always loved children's literature. Some of her favorite picture book authors are Eric Carle, Denise Fleming, Patricia Polacco, Mem Fox, Jan Brett, Graeme Base, Allen Say, Lois Ehlert,and William Steig. She also enjoys reading series books like Catwings, Nate the Great, and Boxcar Children mysteries. Barbara has many hobbies in addition to reading. She likes to sew and she is learning to knit and crochet. She also makes cards and jewelry. Barbara has a husband and four sons. She also has two grandsons and two granddaughters. Over the years, her family has had many pets including a calico cat named Missy, a poodle-mix dog named Ozzie, guinea pig named The Duke of Earle, and a rabbit named Bo-ku.
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|64 posts found
This thread has been deleted from the official forums without any reason. Banns have been issued to the people posting. Please spread this information.
I did not get banned, i am merely reporting this to the various gaming press outlets. I know friends in game that have been banned for as little as quoting an ANet developer.
=== Snip ===
*1. "The game will be released when it's done". Yet at release date several of the things that were promised and were sometimes even indicated as being 'top priority', weren't "done" (and several of those still aren't available):*
• account security measures (these were only implemented after launch, when the damage was already done)
• measures against botting (still being implemented)
• no guesting (still not available)… which is becoming more and more of a concern now that world transfers are limited to once a week:
• no rollback functionality for accounts (still not available)
And I won't even mention spectator mode or ladders for pvp, as ArenaNet has been evasive about when those would be made available from the very start (and I'm not much of a pvp person anyway).
*2. Dyes are character bound, not account bound.*
In short: a lot more grinding is required (or cash shop purchases) to get all the dyes you want on all characters.
3. No dedicated healers, every profession was supposed to be equally viable in all roles, and every profession would be equally welcome in a party.
Yet (for example) the guardian (with most of its stills being support/healing based) is so close to a healer that he is always welcome in a party, 90% of his skills are support oriented, whereas a thief or ranger (with much less support options) are often refused from parties and are much harder to spec for support (with far less options). In short: ArenaNet's implementation of professions failed to make them all truely equal.
*4. No need for "LFG" for hours to get into a group.* Yet the cities and the lower level zones are filled with people just looking for a group who wants them so that they can play through a dungeon in explorable mode. This is actually a follow-up to the previous point… if all professions would be equally effective at all roles, then nobody would have a reason to refuse people from their party because they are a ranger and not a guardian.
Also, there isn't enough motivation to play through story mode dungeons with lower level players. A level 35 player wanting to do Ascalonian Catacombs will have to spend a long time looking for a group, because very few groups actually want a level 35 stranger in their party when they do dungeons. There isn't any kind of reward for the party for playing with lower level players.
*5. Ever branching story:* with only 1 ending and several knots where branches come together again, these story branches are extremely disappointing.
I would at least have expected different endings if you choose The Vigil, the Durmand Priory or the Order of Whispers.
This is just plain misleading. Very few of the branches are only available to one race, most of the branches actually are identical and not race dependent at all.
It's not a branching story, it's a 'merging' storyline… it starts off with a couple of different branches per race, but it quickly merges into one main storyline, with a few very small branches (paths) along the way that quickly merge back into the main story. After the first few levels, what race you took and what options you chose at character creation quickly become irrelevant, and you are all merged back into the one story thread.
*6. No grinding dungeons for tokens. Earlier on in the development, PC Gamer spoke to Eric Flannum, and he confirmed:*
By now we all know how much grinding is required to get the dungeon pieces.
In fact, there wasn't supposed to be any need for grinding at all.
On top of that, there is a severe lack of personal goals once your have reached max level and you have explored all the zones. There aren't any long-term goals worth going for, other than the dungeon gear (or the legendary gear). So if you don't want to pvp, all that's left to do at max level, is the repetitive grind.
*7. No gear treadmill...* yet after we reached max stat gear (exotics), ArenaNet first introduced Legendary weapons, now Ascended armor, and in the future Legendary armor… all with better stats. The rare gear (legendaries) was supposed to differ only in skin, not in stats:
*8. Zones remaining "relevant":* although the level scaling is a great idea, as it is right now, the game encourages grinding in only 1 zone: Orr. If you're playing in Orr, you can easily make 6+ gold per hour and you can work on gathering resources that can be used to craft legendary gear. If you're playing in any other zone in the game, then you can count yourself lucky if your "scaled up" rewards net you 2 gold per day, and you can forget about those legendaries.
Which is the main reason why Orr is still full, and most of the other zones are almost empty. There is nothing in those zones to entice players to keep coming back and do the events there again. Meaning that in many zones (even on full servers), a player playing through those zones will never be able to do the group events or take on the champions… because there's simply no one else around to help out.
So please up the rewards in all other zones in the game and give every single zone something unique and worthwhile, to make it more interesting for max level players to return to every single zone and replay them over and over again.
On top of that, the scaling still doesn't work too well, making lower level content far too easy if you're scaled down from level 80 in full gear… even more so if you're in a group. It doesn't "remain challenging" as was the intention.
Right now, instead of addressing this problem of replayability, ArenaNet is spending most of its time into making new and higher level content to give players something new to grind for… and if that works, then Orr could soon see a significant drop in population as well.
*9. No crafting of throwaway items.* As it is, the tradingpost is a joke. Some higher level items are in huge demand and cost a fortune, while the TP is filled with loads of lower/medium level items that nobody wants. Players who want to level up their crafting skills are forced to make a fair amount of throwaway items.
And finally, a few more of my concerns:
• The rates on the trading post and the currency exchange (gems) are ridiculous (15%/36%). Have a look at the rates on auction sites like ebay, as they are much more reasonable.
• Inflation on gem prices is ridiculous. On release date you could buy 100 gems for around 25 silver. Right now you'll need closer to 90 silver for those same 100 gems. And still very few people actually consider it worthwhile to pay real money for gems to transfer them to gold.
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Novice Member
Joined: 11/20/11
Yeah, it's getting ridiculous over there. Don't feel bad for being banned.
Originally posted by IPolygon
I did not get banned, but some people i know did. I am merely spreading the word to make people aware how they run the game and forums.
Novice Member
Joined: 10/22/10
Originally posted by taus01
You mean like every other company out there?
Yeah, these companies today... not being all honest and stuff. Damn our high expectations, I was promised a pink unicorn that shat fudge cake, they better deliver it fast if they know what's good for them, I'm one step from writing a very angry QQ thread myself.
Oh wait I'm just being intentionally silly... like I said, this is the same pattern observed in countless other MMOs... so, better stop playing MMOs entirely if you don't want to deal with this.
Just my 2 cents.
RIFT, EU Blightweald Server
Waiting to see:
ToR, TERA, GW2
Novice Member
Joined: 5/03/12
This is like trying to drive straight through Schroedinger's minefield!
Oh stop it with the QQ already. If I were ANet I'd be sick of it by now, too.
Developing a game takes time, maintaining a game takes effort and time, perfecting a game takes effort, time and will never be possible as long as some people are never satisfied.
Novice Member
Joined: 9/25/09
Originally posted by Indrome
I was about to say that you shouldn't use words "ANet" and "perfecting" in the same sentence but then I noticed you didn't.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Novice Member
Joined: 10/20/10
Game is a few months old, it just starting to craw, after the crawling they can learn to stand up, then they can learn to walk, and finaly after learned that they can start to run.
MMO development are never done, always room for improvements and things to learn.
DOnt expect mmo's to launch with 8 year of development like wow had.
Novice Member
Joined: 7/07/05
Originally posted by RomeuFCR
No, it's not the same. I thought TOR was bad, TSW (beta) was bad, but neither of them compare to ANet. The GW2 forums are the worst I've ever seen for this sort of thing. It's a terrible way to treat customers, and its probably costing them.
Maybe its because of being B2P, they can't stop people from posting, who don't play anymore. Maybe that's why they were reluctant to have a forum at all. I can just imagine how ugly that could get, but I think they really need a better solution. Maybe disable forum accounts of people who haven't logged into the game within a week, or something like that, I dunno.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Yeah, don't you hate when people complain about things. I want them all to be mindless slaves of the corporations and accept everything they say for face value. That is how things should be run, after all:
The Company is the King, not the customer!
Don't you hate people QQ'ing about QQ'ing? Man that is such a drag and these companies are all right and we need to protect them from the bad customers that want to harm them.
And WoW was utter shit when it got released (and still is). Figures...eyh?
PS: I am not QQ'ing or complaining, i just copy pasted an article that got censored and people got banned for it. If you want to attack someone please complain to the original creator over at the GW2 Forums. Thank you.
Novice Member
Joined: 10/22/10
Originally posted by taus01
If you relay something that is crap onto others, you're just as responsible as the original creator of the crap. Or just like those corporations you mentioned, you also don't like to admit your responsabilities?
And yes, corporations are Kings, you're just a worthless pawn with a wallet, the sooner you realize this the better off you'll be.
And yes, I do hate when people complain... complaining is for the weak. Action is what makes things happen... logic huh?
I'm here for constructive discussions, not mindless whining and qqing. If I could I would delete all those threads, people need to rise up and fight, not sit around writing angry threads... like that's going to change anything ahahah :D
RIFT, EU Blightweald Server
Waiting to see:
ToR, TERA, GW2
Novice Member
Joined: 11/20/11
Originally posted by RomeuFCROriginally posted by taus01
Well, I am one who likes to believe someone's word. If a company praises a game's design in each interview and builds upon their loyal fanbase with philosophies they think are great, and then burn the foundation of their own game to the ground, one would at least expect some kind of dignity. I haven't had unreasonable expectation for their game, just a good game with a soul that reminded me of GW1, but taken a step further. With the upcoming update that soul is lost and GW2 moves behind WoW and into the ranks of all the other sub-par MMOs that tried to do something on their own, but then turned to be like WoW...and fail(ed). The way how mods on the official forums handle stuff is bad, really bad. They merge threads that originally have not much in common but use the upcoming content update as a start. If you merge all threads together, everything falls apart. You won't be able to follow the initial discussion. A lot of those threads were constructive and expressed an important point. The reason why so many people feel hurt is because ANet broke an important promise that was literally presented in your face in a couple of blog posts. Even by ANet's own studio head. I still like the game for its gameplay, but it has lost its touch or at least will with the upcoming update.
Originally posted by RomeuFCR
This is the best fake angry ranting i ever read, you sir are one hell of a comedian, well done! Me and a few work buddies are in tears laughing.
Oh my god, the way you snuck in that "rise up and fight" quote is pure genius!
Double plus good!
Originally posted by IPolygon
Agree, if it says "Made with 100% pure Orcish meat" on the tin i expect no Goblin meat in it. What has happened to holding up the companies to their word?
I understand that things take time, but if it is been advertised as "In the Game" or "On Release" on multiple sites and in Interviews with the Gaming Press then it better be there.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 9/14/12
Our Studio Design Director Chris Whiteside just posted this:
"I'd like to respond to concerns players have raised about ascended items. Please keep in mind that we're releasing this as one portion of a massive November update that introduces and improves many aspects of challenge, progression, and rewards. With this and upcoming updates, we view ourselves as introducing large amounts of content with supporting systems and features, akin to an expansion pack, building on Guild Wars 2 through a series of live releases. So it's important for us to be able to add an expansion pack's worth of progression and rewards to support that content.
Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.
Ascended and infusion rewards will be available in both PvE and WvW over time, and be made available through all sorts of content around the world including existing content. PvP will remain unaffected to ensure our intended PvP balance going forward. We are also working on other reward and progression systems for the game that tie into current and new content and features. As you know we care very much about your support and opinion and are listening intently to what you say.
Chris Whiteside – Studio Design Director
Apprentice Member
Joined: 9/06/12
Act with wisdom, but act.
Sounds more like youre grasping at straws to me. Anet is sticking to their game plan and keeping the game as grind free as possible. But at the same time they want to deliver new content and new things to work towards for the players who like shiny things. Trying to find a happy balance between the two is hard - hell, I'd like to see you try it in practice.
But what's most astounding is that people are doing all this whining, bitching and moaning and are totally forgetting one fact. We're barely 3 months into the game's release and they're already bringing us new content.
On top of that their time table was very tight. They had August to release, september to prepare for the Holloween event, and then octover/early november to prepare for this. The fact that they are so organized internally that they can pull all of this off in a timely manner is quite impressive. Three months into release most other games were still fixing class balance issues and terrain glitches.
Originally posted by TheIronLegion
Which is what they should be doing since there are still hundreds of class bugs, balance issues and terrain glitches!
Not to mention them spending time on developing a "diminishing rewards system" to make up for their bad dungeon design that was so full of holes (literally) that every single dungeon had a shortcut. Yes, every single one had at least one exploit or still has them.
Screw the new content, fix the game.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 3/24/11
Everyones a mmo vet these days :P
Originally posted by taus01
I can understand your points entirely, as I have stopped playing GW2 awhile back, it just lost it's edge on afew things.
So did Anet really keep their promises? No not really, but does that make GW2 a bad game? Hell no,however the game needs alot more to be really called a mmorpg.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/08/12
Troll kalla mik!!!
Originally posted by RomeuFCR
I am with you brother... *grabs torch* TO ARENANET and beyond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We'll show them.
On top of that, the "We're barely 3 months into the game's release and they're already bringing us new content." which follows the analogy of a tasty sandwitch ordered, got a half-backed bread with missing salad but added crap.
Of course the fanboy fraction will enjoy their added flavor.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 3/24/11
Everyones a mmo vet these days :P
Originally posted by karmath
Yeah I like buy any and all mmorpgs , I don't get hyped to much at all, the only one I am hyped for like crazy right now is PS2 , cant stop playing the god damn thing LOL


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Google announced that it has acquired Slide, a start-up that develops social apps. TechCrunch reports that Google paid $228 million for Slide, after investing in Zynga, one of Slide's competitors.
"For Google, the web is about people, and we're working to develop open, transparent and interesting (and fun!) ways to allow our users to take full advantage of how technology can bring them closer to friends and family and provide useful information just for them. Slide has already created compelling social experiences for tens of millions of people across many platforms, and we've already built strong social elements into products like Gmail, Docs, Blogger, Picasa and YouTube. As the Slide team joins Google, we'll be investing even more to make Google services socially aware and expand these capabilities for our users across the web."
It's obvious that Google plans to launch a social service to compete with Facebook, but it's not clear why it would buy a company that develops apps like SuperPoke, SuperPoke Pets or FunSpace. Maybe for Slide's engineering talent, Slide's valuable analytics data or maybe because it couldn't buy Zynga.
Social networks and online games account for about 33% of the time spent online in the US, according to a Nielsen study. Tom Chatfield, the author of Fun Inc: Why Games Are The 21st Century's Most Serious Business, thinks that social games aren't a fad: "People realised that a social platform like Facebook gives people ways to show off to, or compete with, their friends. It's so much more engaging to do something with people you know than to do it with strangers. You can cheat if you're playing online with strangers, but playing with friends is an incentive to be fair, and that brings the emotional rewards of competition."
Since Facebook has the Internet's main social graph and stores data about more than 500 million users, all the cool social apps integrate with Facebook. In the future, every web application will have a social component, which will probably powered by Facebook, a closed social network that traps user data.
OpenSocial is a Google project whose goal was to create social apps that work in any social network. FriendConnect was designed to transform any site in an OpenSocial container. Buzz is the epitome of openness, by embracing open standards and allowing anyone to access the firehose, which includes public activity from every Buzz user. Unfortunately, these projects haven't been very successful, so Google will have to build a social network on top of OpenSocial, Google Buzz and Google Profiles. The project is crucial for the future of Google search, Google ads, Google's web apps and maybe more than that.
Peter Norvig says in an interview that Google's biggest mistake was ignoring social networking.
"I can't speak for the whole company, but I guess not embracing the social aspects [was Google's biggest mistakes]. Facebook came along and has been very successful, and I may have dismissed that early on. There was this initial feeling of, 'Well, this is about real, valid information, and Facebook is more about celebrity gossip or something.' I think I missed the fact that there is real importance to having a social network and getting these recommendations from friends. I might have been too focused on getting the facts and figures—to answer a query such as 'What digital camera should I buy?' with the best reviews and facts, when some people might prefer to know 'Oh, my friend Sally got that one; I'll just get the same thing.' Maybe something isn't the right answer just because your friends like it, but there is something useful there, and that's a factor we have to weigh in along with the others."
August 6, 2010
Google Buys Slide
This blog is not affiliated with Google.


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No cooking or smoking within the cabin.
No pets are allowed in the cabins.
Additional camping equipment (including tents or awnings) will not be permitted at the cabins.
Fees accommodate only one Motor Vehicle Entrance Fee, all others must pay upon arrival at the park.
You must contact the park one week to 48 hours in advance of your arrival in order to confirm key pick up, access codes, etc. Please call (208) 366-2394 for your cabin access information. Failure to contact the park may result in inability to obtain entry into the cabin.
No refunds are given for failure to make arrangements with the park.
Cabin Locations: Hilltop cabin is located near site 27 in Wagon Wheel Campground.
Sage and Cottonwood cabins are located near companion sites 63 and 64 in Trailside Campground.
Dogwood, Elm, Aspen, Oak and Juniper cabins are located in the day use area along the Snake river. (Not located in the campgrounds or near camp sites).


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In Michigan, Police Officer Merlin Taylor was on duty last week when he received a call of an animal in distress. When he arrived at the scene, he saw a baby skunk with its head stuck in a yogurt cup. Knowing full well that he was probably going to get sprayed, Officer Taylor put on a pair of gloves and helped the skunk out of the tight situation, and in a stroke of luck, the skunk was actually too young to spray him anyway, so they both came out smelling great!
#YahooLive is proud to present this exclusive concert from Miguel on Tuesday, August 4th. Catch the show live or tune in for a full 24 hour rebroadcast.
Check out ROC Live Life Loud Products @ <a href="http://www.ebay.com/roc"> ebay.com/roc </a> Cristiano Ronaldo, the biggest athlete in the world is hiding in plain sight. Would you have noticed? No one cares more about his fans than Cristiano Ronaldo and no one LIVES LIFE LOUDER...even in disguise. ROC Live Life Loud was founded as a partnership between global football superstar Cristiano Ronaldo, branding and retail expert Incubrand and leading digital content company Shareability.
Music video by Nero performing Two Minds. (C) 2015 Nero, under exclusive licence to Virgin EMI Records, a division of Universal Music Operations Limited


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The University of Tennessee at Chattanooga men's tennis team posted a 5-2 win over The Citadel on Senior Day at the UTC Tennis Courts this afternoon. The Mocs took the doubles point and four singles matches to improve to 10-8 overall and 5-4 in Southern Conference action.
With one match remaining before the SoCon Tournament, today's win assures the Mocs at least a .500 record in league play for the first time since 2007. It also guarantees a .500 overall record for the second year in a row. The last time the Mocs had back-to-back winning seasons was 2006 & 2007.
Seniors Manuel Barroetavena (Buenos Aires, Argentina) and Jackson Tresnan (Apopka, Fla.) were two of seven seniors to play their final home match today. They improved to 8-1 in SoCon action by opening with an 8-4 win over J.C. Pauli and Dillon Berkabile at No. 3 doubles. They are 12-3 in the spring and 14-7 overall as a tandem.
Fellow seniors Stephen Crofford (Franklin, Tenn.) and Chris Smith (Johnson City, Tenn.) clinched the point with their 9-7 win over Peter Bleach and James Atkinson at No. 2. They trailed 7-6 before rallying to take the doubles point and a 1-0 lead.
Barroetavena upped his conference singles record to 7-2 with a quick (6-1, 6-0) win over Berkabile at No. 2. He leads the team with a 14-4 spring record and 21-9 overall tally. The Mocs went up 3-0 after Chopra's (6-4, 6-2) win over Bleach at No. 3. He improved to 6-3 in SoCon matches, 10-6 in the spring and 15-10 overall.
UTC clinched the win with Tresnan's (7-6, 6-0) win over Oliver Dedding at No. 4. He is 4-1 at No. 4 and 13-12 overall. UTC's other point came at No. 1 when senior Roberto Vieira (Bedfordview, South Africa) scored a three-set win over David Orces (6-2, 3-6, 1-0 (4)).
The Mocs finish out the regular season with a trip to Georgia Southern on Saturday, April 13. Match time is set for 12:00 p.m. (E.D.T.) and a link for live scoring is available on the men's tennis schedule page on GoMocs.com.
Chattanooga 5, The Citadel 2
Apr 07, 2013 at Chattanooga, Tenn. (UTC Tennis Courts)
Doubles competition
1. David Orces/Oliver Dedding (CIT) def. Ankit Chopra/Roberto Vieira (UTC) 8-6
2. Chris Smith/Stephen Crofford (UTC) def. Peter Bleach/James Atkinson (CIT) 9-7
3. Manuel Barroetavena/Jackson Tresnan (UTC) def. JC Pauli/Dillon Berkabile (CIT) 8-4
Singles competition
1. Roberto Vieira (UTC) def. David Orces (CIT) 6-2, 3-6, 1-0 (10-4)
2. Manuel Barroetavena (UTC) def. Dillon Berkabile (CIT) 6-1, 6-0
3. Ankit Chopra (UTC) def. Peter Bleach (CIT) 6-4, 6-2
4. Jackson Tresnan (UTC) def. Oliver Dedding (CIT) 7-6, 6-0
5. Elliott Sperr (CIT) def. John Peacey (UTC) 6-2, 2-6, 6-3
6. Jackson Pride (CIT) def. Luke Saunders (UTC) 6-2, 6-2
Order of finish: Doubles (3,2,1); Singles (2,3,4,6,1,5)