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Discussion on this site seems to have died down thoroughly since the end of the november kickstarter campaign, though the lead developer has given a substantial announcement on current plans and progress. The two relevant posts are Land Parcels Doubled and Progress So Far and Our Goal For April.
There are 6 main points brought out.
The following is commentary, not statements by ElectricCrow or anyone involved with the development of Greed Monger.
The third through fifth points are all pretty self explanatory so I will add no further commentary.
The player purchasable parcels doubling contradicts the initial statement of the kickstarter, that there wouldn't be an increase in land provided for quite some time, although this move was predicted by critics. Developers later clarified that the plan had been to sell about half of the land parcels during the kickstarter, and so the move to increase available land follows initial intent.
Apparently the goal for April is to have a feature-incomplete release-quality game available. The post also suggests that the plan is for the funds raised so far to carry the game through alpha, when the second kickstarter will provide a second round of revenue to carry the game into beta. When that money runs out, the monetization will be evaluated. So far the revenue strategy is the video game version of a Ponzi scheme, supporting older players with money from new ones. The stated goal monetization method is to fund the game from the sales of land between players, and hopefully they'll figure that out soon.
I had hoped that with the booming success of the first kickstarter, developers would have a sufficient budget to complete the game, and they would avoid milking their community for money. Instead, the plan seems to be to entice additional spending via perks, a la Pay2Win.
It looks like while development of Greed Monger is well on track, the game seems to be named after the philosophy of the developers.
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Like I stated on the forum Games take ALOT of money to develop. Even going with Cloud Hosting we are looking at thousands of dollars per month for the required Bandwidth to run the game. The 2nd KickStarter is needed in order to get us through beta testing and the first few months of release. For those who supported us in the first round there will be nothing forcing them to help fund us again in this 2nd round. The only way they will help us again is if they WANT to help us succeed, want more land parcels, or like one of the other rewards we offer this time around.
I can assure you there will not be any pay to win elements of this game... I don't support pay to win games with my money much less my time and energy to develop it.
Company Owner
James, I can see your perspective as someone who is seriously invested in the game. However, there are some problems with what you're saying.
The "Games are Expensive" statement is true, but the argument is faulty. The original kickstarter was advertised as to be to create the entire game, and that there wouldn't be any further land sold until well after release. Having another kickstarter to sell more land is first of all dishonest to those who participated in the original kickstarter. Additionally, if 3x the original amount of money was only enough to get the game into alpha, then what reason is there to believe that the next kickstarter will raise enough to last until the game can stand on its own? I think there is any, unless it raises far more than the first. And in order for the second kickstarter to raise far more than the first, it would have to allocate even more additional land, which would be dishonest to the participants of both the original and the second kickstarters.
The things you said on the GM forums, namely that 1) Greed Monger already has $50k worth of servers, that 2) EVE online uses the largest supercomputer in the world, that 3) WoW uses hundreds of servers, and that 4) Blade servers cost $2k-$5k are, respectively: irrelevant, false, irrelevant, and misleading. I've worked with the type of server that Jason was talking about, Dell Poweredge 1850s. Probably when he bought them 4 years ago he spent $50k on 20-40 of them. Today you can buy them for $90. EVE uses, as of 1-2 years ago, the largest supercomputer in the gaming industry to manage it's single universe. EVE's servers use no more than 400 processor cores, whereas the largest supercomputers in the world run more than 400,000 cores, making your statement off by more than 1000:1. That WoW uses hundreds of servers is irrelevant because they also support ten million subscribers and about one million consecutive players. Greed Monger near launch will optimistically have less than 1% that many players, and by similar metrics would require several servers instead of hundreds. Blade servers are a luxury - they cost 3x as much as a similar economical rack server.
Greed Monger also allows you to spend dollars to gain an advantage, specifically an advantage that you cannot gain any other way. This is how most people define pay to win - the part that's missing is the ability to spend up to unlimited dollars for an insurmountable advantage, though buying lots of land in the kickstarters looks similar to that. The driving point behind the entire project is a pay-to-win element. There is also a significant likelihood of a non-real-estate RMT auction house, another pay to win element. You cannot assure us there won't be any P2W elements because there already is one.
Also, your kickstarter backers who have already contributed are coerced to help donate again: after all, if the money runs dry they don't get to have the game that they already paid you to make. They've already given an average of ~$150 each, that's a lot of sunk cost.
I have nothing against you, James. That said, I'm pretty sure the only valid things you've said between the 2 posts are the cost of the hosting and that there are other costs too. Its definitely true that MMOS are expensive, I agree. I've been making fairly notable people who say nonsense look like fools for years, so you probably want to be really careful what you say to me: I will point out the irregularities, because somebody needs to watch gamers' backs.
Novice Member
Joined: 5/21/04
Here we go. A lot of slanted speculation in your thread Waffle. I'll answer your thread in detail and leave it at that.
The player purchasable parcels doubling contradicts the initial statement of the kickstarter, that there wouldn't be an increase in land provided for quite some time, although this move was predicted by critics. Developers later clarified that the plan had been to sell about half of the land parcels during the kickstarter, and so the move to increase available land follows initial intent.
When we initially began development of Greed Monger, it was always the intent to have double the amount of land available after development was nearing beta. We just didn't expect it to be so many so early. James is trying to be helpful but he's a developer and he himself isn't fully aware of the overall marketing strategy behind the game right now. If 3,000 parcels were spoken before, before we even had a game ready to show anyone, I think it's safe to say that once the game is in an Alpha state the interest will far surpass the available parcels at that time.
Apparently the goal for April is to have a feature-incomplete release-quality game available.
Ok, this is a valid point in one regard, which may not be the case later but it's what we are planning on. We had planned on a very complex crafting system with skill challenges and the like. The initial feedback we got was that some in the community liked the idea, many didn't. So, our crafting system is going to emulate the likes of Ultima Online meets GW2 for the sake of being able to complete the systems more easily under the time and budget available and then revisit it after we've had more time to evaluate everyons thoughts and wants for the system. Feature incomplete? Not really, as nothing was every truly defined or set in stone. It's just not going to be an overly complex system and honestly, will be much like what people have grown to expect in todays crafting systems with some improvements and a real experimentation system I know everyone will love.
The post also suggests that the plan is for the funds raised so far to carry the game through alpha, when the second kickstarter will provide a second round of revenue to carry the game into beta. When that money runs out, the monetization will be evaluated. So far the revenue strategy is the video game version of a Ponzi scheme, supporting older players with money from new ones. The stated goal monetization method is to fund the game from the sales of land between players, and hopefully they'll figure that out soon.
This isn't exactly accurate. There are many reasons we are launching beta with a follow up campaign. Yes, one is to provide some comfort funding for server bandwidth and the like while we evaluate usage, revenue model etc against costs, but it's also a means of marketing the Game into it's Beta/Launch phases with a game that's actually ready to show. If there are only 3,000 parcels of land available in a follow up campaign before a launch and everyone actually has a feature rich environment to write about in the media with lots of videos and screenshots to support their articles, we expect the interest in the game to sell out the remaining parcels with a lot of spill over of people wanting to buy parcels that will at that point only be available from the players who already own them. This will help get the Estate Auction System running along with the launch. In any case, there are multiple reasons for a follow up campaign. We will be fine if we don't have one, but it will help us get things launched on a much better footing if we do.
You may also want to look up what a Ponzi scheme is. Tossing that term around so loosely when you obviously don't understand it's meaning is more comical than insulting. A Ponzi Scheme is if someone sells an investment to someone else that doesn't exist and uses the funds of the next line of investors to pay back the first and so on until you have grown exponentially over time taking in more than what you put out. How this applies to the game is beyond me.
By your standard, every MMO game out there is a Ponzi scheme. People are paying money to run the servers, add new content, keep people on staff while supporting the current player base. Kind of rediculous Waffle.
Let me ask you this. We could either launch the game with the 3,000 parcels and sell them more slowly over time while marketing the game directly, or, launch a follow up KS campaign with a built in user base that will help generate further interest in the game. Which do you think will be more beneficial to us and the current players?
I had hoped that with the booming success of the first kickstarter, developers would have a sufficient budget to complete the game, and they would avoid milking their community for money. Instead, the plan seems to be to entice additional spending via perks, a la Pay2Win.
So many holes in this. I can tell you are still pissed about being banned from the forums. For one, we don't have an insufficient budget. We have accomplished a great deal more than we expect would would have to this point. We are doing very well so far. We are not milking anyone for money. If we offer some additional perks to pledgers that weren't available in the first campaign and they have value to people who have already pledged, it's simply a decision for them to make as to whether or not its worth it for them. How that is Pay 2 Win, you'll have to explain.
You have used a lot of the common insults for an MMO game in your posts that really don't apply to our game and it appears to be soley stemming from your own personal frustrations from being banned from the games forums and not being unbanned after you asked to be.
I hope this clears up your misunderstandings.
It looks like while development of Greed Monger is well on track, the game seems to be named after the philosophy of the developers.
Considering most MMO's are developed with 7 figure budgets and teams of 30 to 150 people, I think it's safe to say you're being rediculous.
I don't know why you're wasting your time responding to my posts with Ad Hominem. Notice the lack of attacks upon your motives to follow. [Edited from 'personal attacks']
Let me start by saying that I speculated in the part of the post that I first related as "The following is commentary, not statements by ElectricCrow or anyone involved with the development of Greed Monger." and that everything that you had a problem with was my own personal commentary which I clearly labeled as such. Why you argued with my clearly labeled personal commentary is beyond me.
The first thing I'll say is that I'm personally upset by your lying and trying to cover up your lies, and my being banned was an act of trying to cover up your lies, so there's some truth to your statement that I'm frustrated at that. I'm also a little frustrated that you offered to unban everyone in a thread, including myself, and then declined to do so, making your offer a hollow lie to sound like an amiable guy. You also asked me to remove the post I made on this forum publicly exposing your threat to use money from the first kickstarter to sue people on the internet who hurt your feelings by exposing truth about you that you didn't want people to know. The second is that I have not misunderstood a single word you have said, rather I haven't interpreted them the way you would like me to. On to analysis, and I'll try to be concise.
1) If the intent was always to double the amount of land available after development nears beta, then you intentionally lied to all the backers of your initial kickstarter when you answered the "so what is stopping you from releasing more land to make more money?" question by saying that you wouldn't be immediately releasing more land. You've covered that up now by removing that part of the FAQ from the kickstarter (to be fair most of the FAQ is gone).
2) I explained exactly what I meant by feature incomplete, which is exactly the same as what you then clarified it to be: Placeholder systems. You called me wrong and then explained by agreeing with me. This is genuinely funny.
3) You justify your decision to increase the parcelable landmass with 'adding more parcels will increase the demand for parcels'. That statement may very well be true, but you still decieved your original kickstarters. I don't know what the best call for the game is: I just know that when people lie and cover it up it's probably because they're doing something underhanded.
4) Regarding the ponzi scheme statement. The essense of a ponzi scheme is taking money from investors, then taking money from more investors to pay earlier investors, without making any real investments. Should you/GreedMonger continue to ask more money for a product which does not yet functionally exist (players can't play it yet, which is what I mean), then you are doing something similar. Other games are selling an existing product to players, and using those funds to continue to develop the product. Your game is like that, minus the existing product part, which is fairly important.
5) The only 'insult' that I've used toward your game is P2W, and your game has clear P2W elements. If you didn't want your game getting P2W labels, then you shouldn't have made the primary focus a P2W element. [Notice: One attack upon motive follows]. As for milking your community for money: If you had any respect for the current supporters who gave you an average of $150, rather than seeing them as money faucets, you would give them perks from the second kickstarter for free, and leave the new kickstarter to raise interest from new players - which is what you have described as a large portion of the goal of your second kickstarter. [End Notice].
If you don't do and say deceptive things I will not criticize you. Also,seriously: Most of the things that I reported in the post you decided to criticize were relevant and pertinent information about your game that prople from MMORPG.com could benefit from knowing.
Seriously. Stop wasting your time talking to me and go manage your project or make 3d models or play UO or something.
P.S.: Perhaps I should just shut up because a company is at steak!
Advanced Member
Joined: 7/02/04
"Shutting down threads sense 2004"
Very nice post Waffleyone,
I am a huge sandbox player, heck I just got into a game called Wurm and now sadly feel bad I actually payed some money to play it. Point being here is , I pretty much give any sandbox game (Darkfall to Wurm) a chance , if anything can be said about these games they do exist and you can actually be interactive in their worlds.
When I seen this title on kickstarter I kept going back to it as I was invested into other games like Godus and WOTR. But I did keep checking this title out while it was still open and the few things that hit me are exactly what you are stating, in fact I hate to say it , but i actually seen this one coming. Funny thing is it reminds me of another MMO with an actual company that is know called Pathfinder Online that is looking for it's next round of kickstarter investment. The first thing that came to my mind when I read their "kickstarter part 2" start was..."Without this kickstarter we won't be able to continue to the next phase" , so basically what they are saying is , if we don't get this next kickstarter to pay our salaries, the team is leaving and those in the first kickstarter are out of luck until "when" or "if" we find new development funds. Talk about a knee to the nads.
They are almost there btw , but if you see what they are doing to sell there game it's basically giving tons of digital incentives, I wonder what will happen when the investors in kickstarter 1 & 2 see kickstarter #3!, I have no doubt it will happen again. Everything about that kickstarter along with this one made me stay away. Point to it all is, kickstarter in the end says...
"If I am unable to complete my project as promised, what should I do?
If you realize that you will be unable to follow through on your project before funding has ended, you are expected to cancel it. If your project is successfully funded, you are required to fulfill all rewards or refund any backer whose reward you do not or cannot fulfill. A failure to do so could result in damage to your reputation or even legal action by your backers.
To avoid problems, don't over-promise when creating your project. If issues arise, communicate immediately, openly, and honestly with your backers"
Point being, this title had allot of promises, I read the following on the original kickstarter under their "risks and challenges"
The biggest risk is finishing the project and nobody is interested. We have seen on some forums, comments on the potential for failure based on previous MMORPG's on Kickstarter and their lack of success. There are a lot of differences between Greed Monger and other efforts that give us the confidence that we will not only complete the game but deliver something that surpasses the expectations of our supporters.
#1. Big gaming studios need significantly larger budgets to complete a title because like in any other business, name and reputation may increase demand for developers but with it, increases the cost to hire the individual. We are a team of people who have decades of experience in 3D Modeling, Animation, AI Programming, Network Programming, Design, Business Management, Marketing and the like. Our team members may not have been part of the biggest titles on the market, but they are just as talented and ambitious and without the high price tag of those "veterans".
#2. It's not a question of whether we will finish Greed Monger into a launch-able state, it's a question of what all will be included when we do. Our funding efforts here aren't just about obtaining the funds necessary to develop the game, as Appleton has already committed to providing the financial resources for the project, however, this campaign is more of a gauge of interest in what we consider a niche title. It will help us plan the scale and necessary sizes of the individual Climates etc.
#3. The technology available today far surpasses that of even 5 years ago that ultimately removes the ceiling of limitations on what is possible without having to either license a half a million dollar engine or code one entirely from scratch, not to mention the availability of the infrastructure options available. We are developing Greed Monger using the Unity 3D Engine and the UnityPark Suite including uLink, uGameDB, uStream and uZone as well as PikkoServer. All of these tools combined are empowering us to deliver a title utilizing AAA technology with an Indie license resulting in a zone-less, load balanced experience.
In summary, we will of course experience many ups and downs in our developmental process but are very confident in the experience of our growing team and our ability to complete a title that will inspire and impress our player base.
Finally no where does it mention need for further investment, heck the kickstarter is sold as "you do this, we will get this done", obviously this is not the case, but it supports your stance they are actually not sure what they are doing at this point. If they need more funds to continue or are calling this a way to "gauge" their game, I call it bad management period. Sorry James, but you are type of business person investors stay away from. You came up with idea, got some funds and people togather to do this idea and then over-spent in my eyes. According to your original kickstarter that was it, if it is proven that you indeed have no game developed and cannot come threw with your promises, you best be ready to refund that $90,102 invesment, because collectors will come a knock'n. Funny thing, as a developer myself and knowing the average salary is around 80k a year, I thought that number to be low. Then I thought, maybe you got a bunch of friends togather that all agreed to live on 2k a month just to pay the bills. Needless to say my thoughts go on and on about this, but there is nothing that says "you know what your doing".
If you ask me Waffle, this game is an emulation of Wurm and it has a feeling of Pathfinder, promises and continual request for investments. At least with Pathfinder this time around they did initially openly admit that there probably will be a 3rd kickstarter. Thou that kind of went "POOF" off their kickstarter video when no pledges where being made.
Personally this is something everyone should be aware of, kickstarter is an investment there in no guaranty of anything other then what was offered. In the end if it can be proven said company cannot provide the goods promised they must deliver a refund or be held accountable. This is why kickstarter is only available in those countries that would lawfully back a lawsuit if it came down to it. In any case, everything you have stated is pretty obvious for anyone that can think rationally well said.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Novice Member
Joined: 5/21/04
The big difference is, we won't be initiating a follow up campaign until we are in a playable alpha test phase.
When our follow up campaign launches, we will be near a launchable stage in Greed Mongers development. The follow up campaign isn't something we NEED, but it will make a lot of things easier.
Waffle, I'd go rounds with you about all of the inaccuracies in your follow up post but I realy just dont have the time. Read what I said again in my original reply. You either misunderstood a lot or are intentionally misinterpreting my words to suit your agenda. Either way, I simply don't have time for it.
Be well.
Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/14/10
Hi and thanks for all the info on this game. I read the entire forum thread in the WURM forums, it was simply amazing. Brash did his/her homework and I as a consumer appreciate his/her efforts.
How is selling 60 plots and a Castle for $3500.00 not pay to win.
I am sure that the players that have contributed money to this project will defend it vigorously, because they are already invested in it.
The rest of us that have not appreciate your informative posts.
Originally posted by ShortyBible
I would like to state everything on the wurm forum is unedited and out of Appletons control so he cannot ban his fellow backers or sensor their opinion. Its sad we have to resort to some random forum ElectricCrow(Jason Appleton) decided to randomly threaten to sue but oh well. Things happen. I would like to point out this thread.
It shows quitte alot of information about the true nature of this "developer". Please read all of it, I have a few posts in there aswell stating what needed to be stated as I cannot get edited or banned there.
I would also like to state that all actions and ability to stop the next greed monger scam should be done. We cannot allow this uneducated fool to keep wasting peoples money. It gives a bad name for kickstarter and it fuels a maniacal lunatics delusion.
We need to get as many people as we can to read this wurm online forum post, everyone that is a backer if possible. Not only is he gone to the lowest of lows by lying and using shady tactics but he is now banning kickstarter backers that hate on him for his horrible decision making. People that have paid the revenue of the entire game. (That he has completely wasted already, due to his uneducated decisions and inability to do any research.) So not only is he trying to sensor everything about the game to look good or something that could be something, but he is going to the lowest of lows by banning people that BACKED him. Yes Kickstarter backers.
Not only this, but in an interview with markee dragon. He was asked why he didnt use cloud servers. He had no idea what a cloud server was, I knew then that I had an opportunity working with mmo concepts and servers for the past 9 months now. This guy didnt even know what a cloud server was and was probably wasting thousands of dollars.}
So I educated him about cloud servers but at that current time. The modders (that have far less then 9 years of experience I should mention, just another lie by greed monger) decided that I wasnt worthy of the righteousness spot in development. I proposed a simple MMO network AOI system that saves bandwidth by sacrifcing about 5% of CPU usage (Which isnt much in an EC2 cloud) but then jason didnt know what a cloud was. So then came the discussion about a cloud. Both jason and there two "network developers" James and Matt did not understand what a simple AOI system was to decrease bandwidth, they assumed I was developing for an FPS because I used CSS as an example. (Because you should learn from valve prediction wiki..) and I was again shot down.
So after two months after spending all of the money off of wasted bandwidth and blade servers he doesnt even need. Assuming he had ANY experience in modern day server technology. After two months he understands that he needs cloud servers and what do you know? Hes never programmed, he has hired arrogant modders and he has already wasted your kickstarters money. Not only that but he assumes kickstarters that want some sort of validation are infact trolls and must be banned. So now after wasting money that is not his, On server technology that was questioned before he bought it (Not counting the 6 blades you had before kickstarter) with just a stoned idea using techniques from EQ 1 days and he has no idea how much of at rainwreck his development team is.
Because he has absolutely no previous experience in any modding, any programming, or any serious managment of technical people. Its easy to impress someone like that even if you have no experience at all in mmo development.
MMO development is quite hard, you must manage an asycnrhonous database, you must manage both secure and unreliable messages. You literally are playing the game on the server and have the client be windows into this massive distributed game(assuming you know what your doing, if you do not do it this way you let in massive potential for hacking).
I should also mention the server software they are using is about 600 bucks and it is 20% revenue for the distrubted server setup called Upikko. He has directly lied stating it is 900,000 dollars. Over exaggerating on yet another thing. (Developer experience anyone? But wait.. jason appleton has 20 years experience..)
Heres the website. You guys can check for yourself, and please do so :)
The more people that know how much of a scammer this guy is the better. He may not be a scammer, if he is actualyl spending 90 grand on almost nothing. Then you do not give money to someone that has already failed in using there budget. Especially on such low technology standpoint. You bought god damn blade servers after you got kickstarter money and after being questioned about cloud servers. You JUST NOW realize its a bad idea to buy blade servers and your going BACK to KICKSTARTER for more money after failing horribly.
I really hope your next kickstarter doesnt succeed, I feel really bad for kickstarter because people like this destroy it. People still payed money to this guy even though all he did was walk around a world that he bought for around 1700(1500 unity and 200 for 3d models he showed off) and state his pipedream with absolutely no path to get there other then to throw money at random things and hope it works.
I again really hope there are some sensible people here to understand that you cant give someone with literally no experience a job managing people with experience. He literally does not understand any of what he is hiring people to do so he has no idea if what they are doing is a hackjob or not. Thats like pretending to be an architect when your building a house and managing the people building it. You have no idea what you are doing, sure you have money. If you throw enough money at it, it will eventually work. It may still collapse on itself a few times but itll work with 10-15 times the money.
I told appleton when his devs decided to cast me out, With the ammount of servers he is using it could cost around 35 grand plus bandwidth and this is for a year contract. If they went three year (which you should do as a promising mmo.. if your promising) is around 45 thousand dollars including estimated bandwidth and upkeep fees. You can cut this in half by using high availability servers on the fly. This is not including spindown and spin up of dynamic server processes with lower ammounts or higher ammounts of population (Assuming greed monger has this, but talking to the devs I dont really see this happening. The closest thing they have is automatic riak db startup after a crash assuming they are using the plug and play of uLink. They dont know shit so Im putting my money on it. They will probably have a static world with static server boundaries.) Ive already told jason appleton these numbers and he told me "He didnt care, He didnt need them." Now two months later hes back begging for more money to bring out cloud servers that he didnt even know existed three months ago.
Please kickstarters I highly encourage you not to back this kickstarter. There is enough evidence to support that he is either scamming for more money or has wasted his money (This is my bet) on physical servers. Realizing that this is EQ1 technology he now knows he wasted a good portion of his money, but its not his money now is it? So he can just go get more!
Please stop this at all cost. Kickstarter is a community movement, and we need to shutdown projects like this. We cannot allow kickstarter to be flooded with everyone that downloaded unity3d and randomly decided to dedicate there life to game development. It would be fine, if he didnt do his kickstarter less then a month after posting how amazing it was to edit a level for the first time in his "career". Oh yeah, theres some proof on this subject aswell. Just look at the Wurm Online forums. Someone gave a really good greed monger history, it started about 3 weeks before his kickstarter when he learned to import models to the unity3d engine for the first time in his life using an engine. He set out on a new life adventure. Not caring about wasting peoples money, which he has obviously done with horrible planning.
He doesnt know anything about game design, development or even the costs or tradeoffs associated with it. Let alone an MMO that has ten times the complications and ten times the tradeoffs.
Again, please think of kickstarter guys. You cannot let this happen or kickstarter will be doomed with scammers thinking its okay.
Please for the love of god let this post just stay here. People need to know this and decide for themselves. I made sure I did not personally insult this guy to much other then on his decision making about development and server design. This is a good sign for a project, you need both the bad mouthed critics and the fanboys to be called a great game. You cant just go banning one side sensoring one side in hopes to convince the masses. It brings in a worse game and an even worse community. So please, MMORPG mods do not sensor me. This needs to be said.
I am sorry for the people that have been scammed. I truly am but please look past the biasedness of spending your money on this game. Just look at the facts, the posts and do the math. This guy is a scammer or a plain idiot, either way hes massively wasting your money.
Final edit.
While jasons undeniable evidence of pathetic and horrid administration along with shady tactics and horrible use of money and patience. There is still a community and a game, along with developers underneath this horrible PR that want this game to happen. Ive said all I can, and I dont think that many people will even read this but still if you back this project encourage a different PR.
Ok I'm going to be nice here... First and foremost I'm really sorry we offended you by not letting you join the team. None of us blocked you on Skype until YOU kept on putting us down and making fun of us. Who in their right mind wouldn't ignore someone on skype if the person was treating them the way you were treating us?
Next after the KickStarter ended we haven't bought ANY Server hardware. All server hardware we currently have running is hardware Jason had prior to the KickStarter Campaign. It came from Money out of Jason's own Pocket NOT Kickstarter Backer money!
Next you call me a Modder... Umm... I haven't worked on ANY modding tools or software in my life. I'm a Programmer not a Modder. I've stayed up MANY nights in the past 8 years learning how to program. I personally know C#, C++, Java, Python, and a Crap load of other web based languages.
And Finally NEXT I am fully aware of Interest Management systems. I designed my own custom Interest Management System that we were using. What you were describing on the other hand wasn't a proper Interest Management system for a MMO. Now could it be that you just were not describing it in the right terms certainly it is possible but instead of trying to explain it better you resorted to putting us down and calling us names which NEVER works out to your advantage!
Company Owner
Originally posted by JamesP
I wasnt personally pissed a bunch of idiots didnt hire me, I was personally pissed a bunch of idiots got 90 grand. Now Im just hoping kickstarter will stop this nonesense.
So your saying, You havent bought any servers. Yet you still need another kickstarter to fund you? even though you havent spent any mony on servers which is the majoirty of an MMO cost?
Not only that, I wont point to much out from skype but I was blatently told otherwise. I dont really want to go around with a whiole your word against mine, but this needs to be said.
I also pride my self in calling out bullshit when I see it. It was obvious you are a single player developer trying to learn the basics of an mmo architecture.
Thats all Im going to say. I really dont want to turn this into a personal argument. What was said was needed to be said. The kickstarters can do the math and there own decisions by themselves.
I just want to state one more time.
There is absolutely no god damn reason to need a new kickstarter. Unless you are massively wasting money on uneducated decisions and poor decisions, or on personal property.
There is absolutely no reason a server cluster that can run that server would cost more then 40 grand for THREE years. These guys are scammers. This math was done for 9 HIGH CPU servers for three years. Overkill for an mmo, especially when they were designing it around 6 cores. It will work just fine even with absolutely horrid programming. This is far less then 90 grand, and you dont have a big enough staff to need another kickstarter. Just go buy more assets.
Edit. Also one last thing.
Ustream doesnt count as your own AOI system.
Also one more edit Just to get the personal shit out of the way.
You yourself told me that you do not need cloud servers. SO did jason and so did matt, now your coming back to kickstarter begging for money for cloud servers and bandwidth? Not only that, even markee dragon asked you. Explain please?
Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/14/10
Thank you for the post. The link from the WURM forums is the one I read. I also watched the ytube interview.
I also read this entire thread.
Seems as it they are now using the Hero Engine and are contemplating adding a Subscription to the game.
I love sandbox games, but unfortunately many of us that love this genere tend to throw money at indie companies who promise us the world and deliver very little. We are now just fund raising targets.
Three years ago I got burned purchasing the Limited Edition of Mortal Online from Star Vault. Since then I have never Preordered, paid for a beta, donated, crowed funded etc:
When a game is completed, released and has a few reviews, if I am interested I will buy/pay for it.
Originally posted by ShortyBible
I got burned in the same way on the same game. I even stated it in that Wurm thread.
We just need to make sure kickstarters take note of how horrible this is so they cant scam anymore money. I will also be watching it very closely to see if he breaks the kickstarter terms of use. I believe there was speculation he backed his own project on the first time. There will be many people watching the second.
Scammers need to be dealt with or we get people that just want to quit there jobs and decide to "make a game" with absolutely no prior experience. Imagine all the people working normal jobs that had dreams of a game design deciding to go to kickstarter and using the same ammount of experience as jason.
Frightening right? Lets save kickstarter and not support this lunatic
Originally posted by ShortyBible
The new unity EULA. I didnt know about this, god damnit I JUST made a server that balanced rigidbodies using erlang.
Well I really have no internest in greed monger anymore, what was needed to be said was said. I gotta go figure out what the fuck to do now. Heroengine blows though dude, dont use that shit. Very limiting in HSL, its the first language I learned and I regret it extremely
Originally posted by Harper420
It's true I don't have much experience with Cloud Servers. Cloud hosting is a Fairly new technology with in the last 3 or 4 years really. It's gaining momentum and is starting to be used in Gaming more but it's still not really completely main stream yet. I've ALWAYS done Multiplayer programming. I started learning how to program when I was 20 because I had an idea for a MMO and I've been working my butt off to learn since then. One thing that ALWAYS put a hault to my attempts have been Money. I've never had the money to rent or buy own servers so I'm not completely up to date on all of it.
When I joined the GM team Jason and I discussed our Options. I suggested Cloud Hosting and we looked into it. Jason wanted to be assured that he wouldn't end up with a massive bill at the end of the month and where I had no experience with Cloudhosting I was unable to give him that assurance so we dropped the idea and instead decided to use the Blades that Jason had purchased back in 2008. As our team organized and increased we brought on more and more people that had experience with Cloud hosting and each time we brought some one on board the discussion reopend internally. Finally last month we got to a place we were comfortable enough in deciding to make the switch.
Company Owner
Novice Member
Joined: 4/16/12
So, I totally knew this would happen and now it happened. Man these Greed monger fights are always the best. I especially like how no matter what everyone comes out looking bad.
Originally posted by JamesP
Honestly, you should just be the PR of the company.
Also most of what I said about experience goes out the window with Heroengine. Its like starting from scratch other then programming concepts.
I still dont approve of jason appletons obvious scammy tactics, (Facebook likes anyone?) or his pathetic trolling on some random mmos forum but when you go with heroengine its a whole new game except for artists. Good luck to all the bullshit that will arise, I honestly feel sorry for you now having to use heroengine.
My biggest tip is rememeber nothing deletes in heroengine, that fucked my first project.
Originally posted by Harper420
I have ALOT of experience with HeroEngine. I think if you had stuck with it HSL is a whole lot more powerful then you realize. For MMOs it's really the way to go. The whole foundation is done for you and is more then capable to handle the loads of a MMO. It allows you to just focus on your game play instead of having to figure out and develop the underlying network framework. Also with Hero2.0 you have DirectX 11, Speedtree 6, Custom Shaders, and a whole lot of other stuff.
But if we can talk on Skype and remain civil I'd be interested in talking with you again... and if not then I really wish you luck with your framework!
Company Owner
Originally posted by JamesP
The problem I have with it is physics and rendering ability. The people that made the engine are massive for the amazing framework (even though you cant really tell how much resources your using, they give you leneance) The only massive problem I have with it is its shitty physics, it uses a physics server that is just one instance and last time I used it it didnt even work, when it did the update rate was horrible and it was very glitchy. You cant even simulate client side physics without the server which I find rediculous. Not only that you dont have very much control over packet size at all. Its designed for an mmo with EQ 2 combat and thats it. Anything more is rediculously hard, even there FPS simulator was sad.
I actually think the reason I dont use it is because you have more control over the servers not using it, but if you have an EQ2/WoW combat system and need persistence as such then heroengine is for you but I like my mmos (ideally) to have clientside ragdoll physics and authenticative server vehicles with true physics. (well as true as you can get with 90-3 update rate a second)
I honestly never really had a problem with you james, it was jasons obviousness that got me pretty personally pissed and then on top of matts arrogance but you were always level headed the whole time. Thats why I believe you should be PR, it would probably settle alot of shit.
Ill add you again but Im working on my own thing now, I finally got a C# to erlang interface using google buffers after switching from json and now Unity changed there EULA. I have no idea what Im going to do.. maybe XNA but I dont want to be microsofts bitch. Anyway I have no interest anymore with what happens. Good luck if you actually do use heroengine
Elite Member
Joined: 1/13/10
Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms
Originally posted by LadyEuphei
If ever they decide to change the name, Rune Conquest would be a great substitute.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
You may or may not be fine with Unity. They have added some stuff in the EULA that they say is not intended for MMOs however COULD be used at any time if they wanted to in the future. They Say it's geared for services like onLive where the game is 100% streamed from the net and the player's application is just a viewer into the game while the game is run on the cloud... We aren't comfortable in taking that risk so we decided to change and I had been advocating Hero since I joined the team so we took a look at it, asked our Community what they thought and at the time we officially switched the vast majority agreed with the switch. After that time though things got interesting and more people started speaking out against it but the majority are still in favour of the change.
As for the second KickStarter campaign internally we haven't discussed it much and haven't discussed it at all since the switch to Hero. Right now we are more focused on getting established with Hero and getting to a point that we can have the Alpha test hopefully still before April. Things are progressing and all of you can be assured we will continue to do what's best for the future success of Greed Monger.
Company Owner


text:
Ok, I looked around to see if this had been posted, but I couldn't find it anywhere.
This question needs a lengthy set-up. Here goes...
I'm sure you all have noticed that the ashtray that Aunt Bedeilia uses to bash in her fathers head in the segment 'Fathers Day' keeps on appearing throughout the film.
Other than Fathers Day, the ashtray appears in Something to Tide You Over (on the bedside table in Richards beach house), The Crate (in Henry's study), and They're Creeping Up On You (can't recall exactly where right now, but I know I have seen it).
Anyway, does anyone here know where the ashtray can be found in The Lonesome Death of Jordy Verrill? I am sure it there somewhere in Jordy's house mixed in with all that clutter, but so far I have been unable to find it. Also, is it featured in the prologue/epilogue?
Thanks in advance - and remember, bashing noobs makes you their slave in the afterlife.

subset: commoncrawl


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Rolling Roadshows
Lovely Soiree at the Bottle Rocket Motel 2014
|Wes Anderson
|Owen Wilson, Luke Wilson, Robert Musgrave, James Caan
|Run Time
|Age Policy
18 and up; Children 6 and up will be allowed only with a parent guardian. No children under the age of 6 will be allowed.
|More Info
The Rolling Roadshow will take place at the Day's Inn at 307 South East I35 Hillsboro, TX 76645. Tickets are $10 and can be purchased on this page! If you would like to stay at the motel, DO NOT book through Day's Inn, but instead go HERE for details!
Wes Anderson's debut feature has long held a special place in our hearts. There are so many reasons to love BOTTLE ROCKET, but mostly we love this heist comedy about a trio of young, shiftless Texans in existential crisis trying in vain to become hardened criminals because it's damn funny.
So, when we heard that the Days Inn on I-35 in Hillsboro, Texas -- a major location in the movie -- was in danger of shuttering forever we knew we had to step up and join our friends from Reservoir Geeks in their efforts to save the iconic indie film location.
Due to the economic downturn the motel's business suffered, thus the Save The Bottle Rocket Motel event was born and became reality in July of 2011. An estimate 250 fans took part in the festivities which included a showing of the film, attendance by none other than potential getaway driver himself, Robert Musgrave, and the sale of a limited edition Mondo poster.
Now join us for the fourth annual Save the Bottle Rocket Motel event!
Tickets Are $10. Get your tickets NOW!


text:
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text:
Andrew Monk@asmonk active 6 months, 3 weeks ago
Forum Replies Created
I can't find Alive in the book forums. Does one exist?
Can't find Alive in the book forums. Does one exist?
3 year thread necro.. ***spoiler alert*** Rocktopi are the portath.
All I have to say.
Thank you, BigJohn! I definitely want more of these characters! I have to say, without having read the other stories, it feels like a family that has already appeared in six or seven novels. So Mr Sigler needs to write those…please?
Welcome, new Sigler Junkie! There are four stories:
- Hunter Hunterson and Sons (Short Story: Blood is Red)
- Hunter Hunterson and Sons: Home (Short Story: Bones are White)
- Hunter Hunterson and Sons: The $15 Burger (Short Story: Bones are White, podiobooks.com, cast reading on Audible version and here: http://ec.libsyn.com/p/9/c/6/9c6fa38697c25a95/29_FridayFix___SiglerFest_2011_Hunter_Hunterson__the_15_Burger.mp3?d13a76d516d9dec20c3d276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d06cb8033d4c85f0a08&c_id=3421471)
- Hunter Hunterson and Sons: The Case of the Haunted Safeway (Short Story: Games Creatures Play)
Looks like you may have found them all. Enjoy!
James, there is a curriculum guide that is available for free right here on the site.
1. Go to the STORE link in the banner above.
2. Scroll down to the picture of THE ROOKIE
3. Click the VIEW PRODUCTS button below the picture
4. Among the available options, you'll see the PDF version of the Rookie Curriculum Guide
I think I remember someone saying something about how it LOOKS like something is going to be charged, but nothing actually is. I think it might ask you for a credit card or something, even though it is free. I think that's a limitation of the shopping cart software.
While you're on Facebook, stop on by the SiglerJunkies group!
So, I'm new to Scott Sigler. I just read the story in Games Creatures Play, and loved it. I see there are HH&S stories in Blood is Red and Bones are White. Any more?
Thanks Scott. I absolutely love that you make yourself available to your fan base. Liking Alive alot. I like that the reader is in the dark as much as Em.
Michael: By the end of 2015, but not by then end of the summer.
Is there going to be an Alive specific forum?
I am pretty sure I've heard somewhere that there is a teacher version or something of the sort available. I have a friend on Facebook that I've been wanting to suggest it to. But I can't find it anywhere.
I discovered Scott in November and when I finish with Alive next week I will have read or listened to all of his available work except Earthcore. My question is do I set out on a quest to find a print copy of the original edition or is the revised edition dropping before summer is over?
Very much appreciated, Big John. I didn't find that looking around the site.
Here's the podcasts here on scottsigler.com: http://scottsigler.com/category/podcasts/the-champion-podcasts/
The particular one you are looking for is on Page 3.
Hello all,
I was downloading the podcast and realized that episode #7 isn't in the feed. Is it available elsewhere? Was it intentionally removed?
Thanks for any helpful assistance,


text:
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text:
I thought I'd start my own thread on making a AK PDW.
I have been looking at what others have done and I really like some of them.
I've never made a cut down AK47 pistol and thought I'd do something a little different.
It's still in the planning stages, but it's coming along nicely.
My AK PDW will have HK sights, SP89 hand guard, modified Saiga gas block and Galil gas tube.
I just ordered a M92 barrel from Cope's for $24 http://www.copesdistributing.com/blo...el-p-7293.html
and designed a filler piece for between the receiver and hand guard. Just need to go have my buddy fire up his mill now.


text:
As several hundred people ran into the Atlantic Ocean Tuesday, Jim Simpson of Summerville stood by, rolling his arms like a football referee making a call.
"False start on the play," he said. "You all have to do it again at 2 o'clock."
It was the annual Polar Bear Plunge on Sullivan's Island, an event organized by Dunleavy's Pub that benefits Special Olympics of South Carolina.
But this year there was some confusion about whether the event, dubbed "Freezin' for a Reason," was at 1 p.m. or 2 p.m.
The time is decided by low tide and set by the island's public safety department, said Sullivan's Island Police Chief Danny Howard. Last year's event was at 1 p.m.; this year's was set for 2 p.m.
As a crowd gathered on the beach, a group dressed as Baywatch lifeguards made their way to the front of the pack. All it took was one person and a whistle, and the crowd started running toward the water shortly after 1 p.m., breaking down the yellow-tape barrier on their way.
"I've been coming to this for years and never seen anything like this," said June Benjamin of Mount Pleasant. "Nobody ever waits for the countdown to get to zero, but they don't usually run in an hour early."
It suited Tom Sussman just fine. The Greenville resident, decked out in his Michigan cap and hoodie, was anxious to get back to his vacation rental to watch his team take on the South Carolina Gamecocks in the Outback Bowl.
"I was planning to go in early anyway," he said. "So this worked out as far as I am concerned."
Officials with Dunleavy's said they didn't mind the miscue.
"We don't care when they go in as long as we raise money for Special Olympics," said Jenn Maher, whose husband, Jamie Maher, is a co-owner of the restaurant. "Some people even came out and did it yesterday."
At 1:30, Plunge founder Bill Dunleavy and other family members, clad in their white tuxedos with green shirts, led a rowdy crowd of thousands from a street party surrounding the pub to the beach for the official plunge.
As they waited for the "go," the crowd was whipped into a frenzy. Superheroes, Mount Pleasant's Constructionland, Elvis, babies, Duck Dynasty, fairies and everything else imaginable yelled and bounced as they waited for Dunleavy to drop his hand.
Several of the early dippers also waited around to participate in the real event.
"I was talking to my friends and suddenly everyone started running in," said Janie Miles of Charleston. "So we went too, but we didn't know what was going on. Then we were cold and wet, but we waited and went in again. The water felt warmer to me than the air."
The weather was cloudy and in the mid-60s.
The plunge raises more than $20,000 for Special Olympics, said Jamie Maher. The money goes to support local Special Olympic athletes at the mid-winter games at The Citadel in March.
Reach Brenda Rindge at 937-5713 or www.facebook.com/brindge.
Participants in the Polar Bear Plunge on Sullivans Island make their way in to the chilly Atlantic on Tuesday.×
Participant's in the Polar Bear Plunge, on Sullivan's Island, make their way in to the chilly Atlantic. (Brad Nettles/postandcourier.com) 1/1/13×
Participant's in the annual Polar Bear Plunge, on Sullivan's Island head for the shore after their plunge in the chilly Atlantic. (Brad Nettles/postandcourier.com) 1/1/13×
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Wednesday, May 22, 2013
I went to the doctor last week to get my prescriptions refilled.
While there I was on the receiving end of a lecture from my doctor. "You need to get out more," she said. "Exercise, do something, don't lie around the house all day and night."
I took this in with the usual aplomb until she followed with the kicker. She looked me dead straight in the eye and said, "Dan, you need to find yourself a girlfriend."
For a guy who makes his living with words I was momentarily speechless. I had no comeback, no witticism in retort.
I just shook my head and chuckled.
"Women and me . . ." I began, and I just left it hanging.
"You need to find a woman to do things," she said. "People shouldn't have to be alone like you are."
I asked the doctor if she could write me a prescription for that: "To Dan, find a girlfriend."
Interesting premise, I thought. I may just take this and run with it.
My misadventures with women have been well documented here over the years. My string of blind dates has been classified as a five-alarm disaster to the point I'm eligible for FEMA benefits.
I went out with a woman who claimed to be witch and saw dead people.
"You're sitting on Norman," she said as I took a seat on her sofa.
"Who's Norman?"
"He's the ghost who lives with me – Oh hush Norman, I know you don't like to be called a ghost, but you are . . . you're a ghost."
She then smiled at me and said, "Norman prefers to be called 'living challenged.'"
When I abruptly made an excuse to leave five minutes later she put a hex on me that I would grow a tail, and while I don't buy into the whole witchcraft thing I still on occasion check the mirror as I'm drying off after a shower just in case.
I wrote a song about one ill-fated dating situation, singing, "That woman is too much man for me."
When you have asked her five times to open the ketchup bottle for you at the restaurant because she's stronger than you are, it's time to go home, lock the door and hide on the couch for a few days in quiet shame.
One woman gave me an "It's Nice to Meet You," present on our blind dinner date.
"I think it's ever thoughtful to exchange gifts in a situation like this," she said. I did not have a gift to exchange in return.
I opened the gift bag and found a small travel toothbrush and a tube of toothpaste. My brain went crazy at the possible scenarios implied here, until she spoke.
"It's important to brush one's teeth at least five times a day," she said. She liked to speak in third person, and nodded in the direction of the restroom.
"You mean now?"
She said, yes. So I went and brushed my teeth.
Upon my return she explained how proper brushing techniques helped kill germs and how the toothbrush also came with a built-in tongue brusher as apparently tongues carry lots of germs too.
"Did you?" she asked.
"Did I what?" I replied.
"Brush your tongue."
I had not.
She sent me back to the restroom to finish brushing properly, tongue included.
So, find a girlfriend? Doctor's orders ladies, I don't know if that's a good thing or not.
Maybe I should get a dog instead.
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Wearing a pair of polarized sunglasses is not only important for protecting eyes from direct sunlight, but reflected sunlight as well, according to the Vision Council, a nonprofit representing the optical industry.
According to a report the Vision Council will release this week, ground surfaces can reflect and redirect high amounts of ultraviolet rays, even in the shade. Here are some examples:
Water reflects up to 100 percent of UV light.
Snow up to 85 percent.
Dry sand and concrete up to 25 percent.
Even grass can reflect up to 3 percent.
The Vision Council
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|Gray State
Activist Post
This author recently posted an article titled "Is Gray State a Psy-Op?" It quickly went, if not viral, then at least reposted on dozens of alt-news sites. The comments ran from (condensed) "Those evil globalist bastards! Hollywood is evil!" to "Your article is a joke and poorly written, not researched and a slam on a legitimate endeavor".
David Crowley, the director, contacted me and he graciously agreed to a phone interview. Given the initial medium of the article itself, I felt the best format would be this one. There were numerous points in the initial piece that upon my own reflection I deemed too trivial to address. My questions posed were culled from two sources: my own questions to validity, and points brought out by comment posters. I will say that I feel I have been taught a personal lesson in journalism, and I will not forget it. I also wish to point out that not everything that seems evil is evil. There are people out there that have the vision and fortitude to not only think about the problems we face, but actually endeavor to change the dynamic of that in which we find ourselves. After speaking with David Crowley and reading his replies to my questions (below), I am convinced he is indeed genuine in his efforts to wake up the populace as much as his vehicle can accomplish.
I've been struggling with how best to approach you on questions. It makes me uncomfortable to view you in any sort of 'us v. them' paradigm. It occurred to me to just keep it simple. With that in mind, I will only address what I consider to be valid questions. I thought this format would allow you to digest and answer with greater clarity any questions posed.
I want to be clear that I don't consider this response a defense - it's an opportunity to address questions a lot of our fans also have. People have discovered the project at various stages in its two-year (so far) production, so everyone has questions, preconceived notions, and reservations. And while I do conduct periodic Q&A sessions on our Facebook page, 90% of our fans may never see them.
This is obviously contentious material and scrutiny as to its intent is not remiss - however, the Gray State team has never feared questioning, since we have nothing to hide. We feel very strongly about the exercise of free will, and if our fans are not questioning their reality by now, then they're probably just here for the action. But, at the end of the day, we are simply making a movie, not proving anything, crafting an exposé of the system, or trying to batter down the horrors we'll be facing. This is a fictional film, with fake people, places and situations. This is exactly why it's unique - because now our message, our intent, and the visuals can be layered in without being overt, obvious, or preachy. This is NOT propaganda. While we care deeply about the message of the film - it will not be a blunt tool to batter the viewer over the head. After all - Jurassic Park did not attempt to make you believe that dinosaurs exist. It's a story, and if it's a good story, it'll stick with you, stay in the loop longer, and make a larger overall impact.
Q. As many in the comments and on other comment posts have noted, your quote of $6000.00 seems ludicrously low. Please explain the reality of that figure as it relates to real-life costs such as food, fuel, rentals, blowing up glass, CG effects, editing, acting, wardrobe, insurance, fees, permits, licenses, etc. etc. It's not my intent to put you on the defensive, please understand. In today's high-priced (and soon to be hyper-inflation!) world, you have to admit that is a stretch. Perhaps you misquoted in the interview, for all I know. Maybe you meant $60,000 and didn't want to correct yourself, not knowing there would be nitpicky pricks like me calling you on it. So what gives with that? While many say this is a sure sign of collusion, I am not convinced.
A. While I never expected to be audited, the budget for the trailer is a point of pride for us. For those who claim definitively that it must be a lie is either ignorant or out of touch with modern independent filmmaking, since the individual (and broke) filmmaker still has immense capability with applied patience, planning, and technology. Understand it took us a year to plan the trailer, and a year to edit it. And by us, I mean myself and my partner Mitch Heil. When we began the project we were both still students (we have subsequently graduated), but being a student put a few resources on our side, to include donated studio time where we spent three days shooting composite elements with around 40 volunteer actors. Production was done as cheaply as possible - we paid our makeup personnel and our three lead actors, but the rest were all volunteers who got wind of the project and wanted to be involved. The trailer was shot between March and July of 2011 - basically, knocking down extensive shot lists and planning around the schedules of our talent. The school also provided us with the use of a smaller studio in which Mitch built a set that was used for the bedroom wakeup and arrest scene.
A big aspect of your question likely involves the military equipment. As you know, Mitch and I are both former military. We have been running The Bullet Exchange, a military prop rental house/actor training service since 2009. The gear has been slowly gathered literally since we were in high school and decided to make movies after the Army, and now it has expanded to include police gear as well. So, the weapons and uniforms were "in house" assets. And, since the bad guys in most cases are faceless in the trailer, the bad guys in the battle shots you see are simply permutations of the same three dudes with subtle gear/weapon changeouts (me, Mitch, and Danny, our lead actor). In the riot scene we actually did have 10 riot personnel that we outfitted (many of them were 18-year-old volunteer actors), but for the ominous riot shots with a dozen riot cops or more - those are all Danny. In fact, Danny is in the trailer probably 150 times.
All of the digital material, editing, matte painting, color, music, sound, etc, were all done by Mitch and I (with the 3D CGI elements of two shots being handled by Mark Kasper, an editor/colorist at Broadview Media in Edina, MN - he helped us as we were learning Maya software, and laughed mightily after he read your article). The tank and helicopter models were purchased for about $100 each, and then we would add the components we wanted, like the turrets, antennas, different skin textures, C-wire, etc. Mitch handled most of the 3D work and rotoscoping, while I did things like matte painting and compositing. I also did the edit and score. We produced almost 90 visual effects shots, and about half of them didn't even make the cut - but they will be used in the documentary or BTS featurettes.
Naturally, if we hired people to handle all of these things over the solid 14 months it took to finish the trailer in post, it WOULD have cost a fortune.
We documented the entire production process, and it's our intention to begin putting it to use in the form of behind the scenes featurettes and VFX breakdowns. If you watch our current videos at http://www.youtube.com/graystatemovie, you'll see a lot of this behind-the-scenes material in use already. In fact, the sizzler intro to these videos (with the burning city streets spelling "gray state") was our first Maya project, and shows a lot of behind-the-scenes processes - that shot alone took 3 weeks. That's the kind of patience and planning I'm talking about.
www.Graystatemovie.com is my first website, made entirely in photoshop and TextEdit for an "intro to html" class. We also did our own marketing, we edit our own promo videos, and do our own graphics. This also cuts costs. I just wish someone paid us to do it all, since it's been pretty much a full-time job since November of 2010.
Q. CG - How much of the tanks, helicopters and explosions were real vs. CG? It sure as hell looked real to me on the trailer. CG is not so good yet that one cannot distinguish the difference. This leads into the cost, both in programming (if it is CG) and in real cost as relates to explosions, etc.
A. Mitch and I were both pleased about this when we read your article. As I said, we were students when we worked the trailer, and much of what we had to do was our first time doing it. So it's nice to hear that they look convincing. Anyway, literally none of the humvees, tanks, helicopters, or explosions are real. We are excited to begin releasing breakdowns that reveal the step-by-step process behind each VFX shot.
Q. If the tanks and exploding windows were CG, skip this question. If they were real, then please explain the cooperation you must undoubtedly (I would think - and if I'm wrong here, let me know) have been rendered by the military. As stated in the article, why would the military help on a movie of this topic/nature?
A. I'll answer the question because it's important that we address that we have had NO cooperation from the military, nor have we asked for any. The movie Memorial Day was shot here, and the inherently pro-military message garnered it huge support from the military, to include free access to blackhawks, humvees, and a battalion of national guard infantry. Gray State does not share this luxury.
We've had outstanding support from veterans, though. I guess they "get" it.
Q. I wish to ask about the overall content as relates to violence. Am I correct in thinking that the storyline (as with most trailers) is packing an ass-load of action into it with the viewer's understanding the movie itself will not be one long roller coaster of machine gunning goons? I bring this up because the trailer does not dredge up anything but anxiety and fear. You must admit (being awake as you claim) that the globalists want us full of fear and anxiety. Your movie, by the trailer, seems to be a tailor-made vehicle to engender those feelings in the viewer, thus aiding (if not purposefully) the globalists. How do you answer this?
(It is my thought that you are doing this to warn people, and that is an admirable gesture. A personal observation only; I am torn on this. On one hand, I know that if sheeple are not 'shaken awake', then they will remain slaves and zombies - I get that. I really feel the vast majority will be like "Wow, that was fuckin cool!" As if it will happen in some other country… too much fluoride. On the other hand, if the focus in on negative shit like this, then that's the world we paint. Sounds idyllic, but if people quit making movies about death and rape and genocide, etc. and focused on peaceful images and loving environments, then that is what we would be about. A pipe dream, I know - Homo Sapiens Sapiens are shit. But the question is; at what point do we start on the path to non-violence? Who becomes the man to start?)
A. We've been accused a hundred times of being fearmongers, CIA shills, zionists, and even reptilians. But the fear question is legitimate. My response is that just because it's scary doesn't mean it's fear porn, or a psy-op. If we were to frame the film in any context less horrifying, brutal, and impossible than our modern world today, then it would simply not be honest or faithful. And the trailer is nothing - the film's script is truly terrifying. It is several degrees more brutal than anything I've seen on film before. Yes, the globalists want us afraid. But really, who IS afraid? Your neighbors? They don't know what's going on. If this is a film to "wake people up," they'll have to be jarred. But again, that's not my intention - we are not prophets, and our filmmaker/artist status precludes us from being propagandists. However, we are still going to make a film that will faithfully render a possible scenario of an American insurgency, in all its brutal, violent, and tragic glory. But that is not the point of the film either - the thematic elements in play with the story are those of non-aggression, free will, love, and confidence in victory - even if they take your life and liberty.
In any film, by the climax we arrive at the core of the protagonist - his essence of character, deeply imbued with human truth - by burning away his shields to reveal who he is. In Gray State, our protagonist has a long way to go, so there will be a lot of burning. If you're scared, good - this shit is scary. But I'm not going to scare you and dump you off at the curb - there is meaning that you'll have to unravel in your mind for days. I have no obligation to show you a "Patriot" victory to get to the truth of character, and if the viewer chooses to shut himself off from this truth by becoming fixated on the scary images, that is simply his loss.
Braveheart. The Patriot. Gladiator. Why is Gray State to be held to a different violence standard than these beautiful films?
On a personal level, I do care about "waking people up." But that will never be a vehicle for a successful film that actually makes it to theaters. It is my intention to reach a human truth through character development - and do so in a world construct that HAPPENS to involve modern trends. Whether or not these trends are perceived by the audience as "real world" should be irrelevant - but by then the seed has been planted. Trojan Horse, not battle axe.
Your question is really speaking to the heart of the Gray State Controlling Idea, or theme. Currently, as it stands, it is identified as "victory is possible because defeat is voluntary," but I am trying to shift it to include more of an internal evolution flavor. The external world is what it is, and you may not be able to fix it - ESPECIALLY through the same violence and coercion that are used against you. But through collective non-participation, non-aggression, comfort/confidence in "what comes next," and most of all, the suspension of fear, the enemy is stripped of his power. But hey, you tell me - how are you going to tell a story like that without showing some scary shit? You make a flowery hippie peace movie, and see if it pulls any weight with the audience who doesn't already think that way.
Q. Regarding Google and YouTube and the inordinate number of articles linked to your movie site trailer. In this I am a bit of a stick in the mud (sorry to say), but of course I am willing to listen or read your reply, because I am very interested and non-partial in that interest. It is well known and documented that Google and YouTube are globalist entities - all mega communication platform are these days - this is undeniable. You have enjoyed immense space on these two engines. Is it ALL buzz, or is there help in pushing it from them? It's quite possible you have no way to answer me on that, and I understand. You simply would not know. It is a well-known fact that globalists are masters at using people unawares. I certainly hope your project, created for all the right reasons in your mind, has not been promoted by the globalists in furtherance of their goal of universal spiritual disharmony. It just seems like a hell of a lot of help from entities owned by the globalists, given the fact that the movie paints them (the US Govt., the UK, Germany, etc. ad nauseam) in such a harsh and accurate light.
A. This is another point of pride - our effective marketing. During production and post production (up until early summer of 2012), we had built up our Facebook presence to around 3k fans - even before the trailer was released. Those 3k fans came from our primary demographics - the people who would support and promote our efforts. We attended the Bilderberg protests and met a lot of key "leaders" of the movement. With a consistently ominous marketing "voice," we layered clues about the film, pointed at real-world crossovers, and spread the net - then just hyped the trailer's release by degree until the day it went live. 1,000 views every hour for the first few days, 150k by the end of the first week. People were waiting and watching. The Google hits you're talking about are mostly forum posts by curious people interested in the trailer - and come on, the trailer is interesting, isn't it? It causes debate like this. It went viral. If you want to believe WE made all those forum and blog posts, or enemy agents did it - that's your business, and we can't account for it. And we have enough to do without making shill posts on thousands of obscure forums.
The strength of the trailer is what made it viral - and naturally since it is in Google's nature to yield search results - when you type in "Gray State" you'll get the pages that have Gray State in them. If we named the film Cat Picture, you'd get a lot more. It is silly to imply there is more Google "coverage" than actually exists online, or that we are being helped by them. In fact, the Google ads we tried to run using those $100 free Google ad space cards we get in the mail are STILL pending approval, and never ran. Google will tell you all about Gray State - but you have to ask it first. I do not think we're nearly big-time enough to register the attention needed to become censored (like any real project would be, right?).
As for YouTube - I don't see how we've enjoyed "space" there, apart from creating an account and uploading our videos to it, like everyone else. We've received no preferential treatment, and our view counts aren't even that high. YouTube will also yield a lot of Gray State hits because a lot of people have ripped the trailer to upload to their own accounts, created video playlists, or remixed to different music, or whatever - again, I presume, from the strength of the trailer.
Nothing in marketing came easy - we spent the year we were working on the trailer slowly building our name recognition among the groups, forums, bloggers, Facebook pages, etc. who would find it interesting. We just made sure when the trailer came out, people were actually looking for it. We now have about 3k YouTube subscribers and 12k Facebook fans - hardly anything comparable to someone who posts one kitten dubstep video or autotune remix.
I think if we were being helped along by the system, they'd have - I dunno - given us some of their globalist Hollywood douchebag actors, some expensive production value, or a website that wasn't made in TextEdit by me. We've fought for every inch we've gained, and it has been a slow and steady success. If Google and YouTube are helping us, I don't know about it - and they could be doing a far better job!
Q. What's up with the phone number? It goes to a locksmith. I checked it twice for accuracy. I would imagine there is a logical reason, but in light of my investigative fervor you can imagine how the wheels in my mind were spinning. This is not terribly important of course, but I only mention in light of this being one question among a number. What say you?
A. The phone number on our HHP website is my phone number I've been using since 2007 or so, when I was stationed in Fort Hood. If you're having trouble reaching me, I would suggest the error is on your end - my friends, family, and clients reach me with that number every day.
I imagine I'm going to get spammed after this, but I will add that I rarely answer an unrecognized number. I'll listen to any messages left to see if they're real people calling.
I imagine you want to know about my name. I'll be honest, I don't know much about my family bloodline, but as far as I know I have no connection to Aleister. But Crowley is not an uncommon name either. Neither is Mason. I think anything other than perfunctory dwelling on the coincidence of our names in relation to our association with Satan or Freemasonry SHOULD lead to the next step in logic - are all satanists named Crowley? Are any masons named Mason? Has any Nazi ever been named Heil? C'mon. My name could be Fred Smith and people would still think I'm an imaginary front man for a new satanic Hollywood psy-op film. This criticism is unavoidable, but our detractors could do better.
As I wrote these questions (and answered some of them), I have become more convinced you are genuine on this. But then I have to remember the grieving father of Sandy Hook (smiling and laughing before going on camera to cry). See "Sandy Hook Hoax" on YouTube if you haven't checked it- here. I have to remember there is great deception afoot, and your movie would by all appearances 'fit the bill' for a globalist psy-op, whether you are aware of the fact or not.
Of course I'm aware. But someone's got to puncture the MSM, and making another documentary won't do it.
I'm sorry to say that. You seem like a very intelligent man, so you too must admit the feasibility, knowing the globalist agenda. That being said, you can't blame me for asking you these questions.
Nope, but I would have appreciated the email questionnaire BEFORE the last article you ran with! It's your responsibility as an independent journalist to ask questions, and I would encourage you and your cohorts to dig deeper before running with a series of coincidences. It's not like we've been hiding - in fact, you had emailed us and gotten a response before your article was published. It just makes it seem like you mistrust your own movement so much that anything of quality coming from it must be some kind of conspiracy. It's self-defeating.
I don't expect my answers to convince anyone of our innocence, if that is not what they want to believe, but what I've said is the truth about us, so take it or leave it. We honestly don't care, because the controversy is important, and we will toil on unaffected. If the mistrust intimidated us, we would have given up after the first YouTube comment.
Do your research and believe what you like! Free will is important. In the end, we're a couple of broke independent filmmakers making a movie that's timely and terrifying, and struggling to pay rent in the meantime. If we're on a CIA payroll, we're still waiting for the check.
Thanks for your time and consideration. I am flattered, honestly, that you are conversing with me. If you operate under a question-and-answer format, we can just post this and let it ride. If you are standing in the light of truth, then you should welcome the opportunity to address the questions that not just I, but many people, have posed.
Note: If you missed the trailer from the first article, it can be seen below:
Your comments about this debate are most welcome, please include them below.
Michael T. Winter has been published on RT here and Global Research, here. He also has published a novel called Branko's Ride, purchase on Amazon HERE. Michael is based in southern Illinois, USA.
This article may be re-posted in full with attribution.
If you enjoy our work, please donate to keep our website going.


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DANA - A Floyd County man was arrested Tuesday on suspicion of being in possession of child pornography.
Kentucky State Police officials say that detectives from Post executed a search warrant Tuesday at the residence of Dr. Bret A. Dunning.
Dunning, 50, of Dana, who owns and operates a medical clinic next door to a preschool, was arrested and lodged in the Floyd County Detention Center this past week on one count of possession of a matter portraying sex performance by a minor.
According to the police report; Dunning was found in possession of several pictures, "that are known to be child exploitation images," which portrayed sexual acts by children estimated to be 4-years-old. The images were allegedly found on the Dunning's computer.
Dunning was arraigned before Judge Eric D. Hall on Tuesday and his bail was set at $25,000 cash. After posting bond, Dunning was released under the conditions that he stay 1000 feet from any school, daycare or place where there are under age children; not allowed to possess any computer or electronics device, and strict home confinement.
Dunning, who is a doctor of Osteopathic Medicine, owns and operates Dunning Medical Clinic, which shares a parking lot with the Prestonsburg preschool; Learning Ladder Academy. The conditions of his release prevent Dr. Dunning from utilizing his office.
Dunning's wife, Maleshea Dunning, also a D.O., has a family practice at Pikeville Medical Center.
Officials with KSP say that the search warrant was obtained following an online investigation conducted by Post 9 detectives. This incident remains under investigation by Post 9 Detective Jason Merlo.
Dunning is next scheduled to appear in court on May 15.


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So, I was in the market for a generic defensive pump shotgun, and I found a used Winchester Defender at a local shop in good shape. The wood stock was fine and all, but me being me, I thought mounting one of my Wolverine stocks with a Limbsaver and a folding mechanism would be cool. I soon discovered that nobody made a receiver block for the 1300 anymore, sooooo....
I got a little creative with some chrome-moly steel and my TIG welder, and this was the result:
Prototype stock adapter mounted with modified AK SAW pistol grip, CSS push button mechanism, and a Shorty Wolverine stock with the Limbsaver pad. Here's a folded pic:
I took it to the range a few weeks ago and shot the hell out of it. I put as many rounds of heavy buck and slugs through it as my shoulder could take, plus a bunch of trap loads. The adapter held up extremely well (far better than I did), so I decided to make a welding jig and make a few more up for sale.
I ended up making 3 more of them. Even with the hard jig for welding, they ended up being a lot more time consuming to make than I had anticipated. I will most likely not be making any more of them, unless these sell well and people demand more, while waving a bunch of cash in my face. But probably not, and certainly not for this price. Here's a closer view of the prototype installed on my shotgun:
Note that I have the stock installed fairly low. That's because I'm just using the plain sighting bead at the end of the barrel. If I were running an optic or rifle sights, I would have it mounted higher. There are two sets of mounting holes in the back of the adapter; one set is centered, and the other is lower. Using a folding mechanism with the slotted mounting holes, that gives a very wide range of adjustment for getting the comb height where you need it.
Construction is 4130N steel, with all edges and corners nicely rounded. A couple corners on my prototype you can see I didn't bother because they weren't bothering me, but the ones I am offering for sale got a full "melt" treatment. They use a regular AK grip nut, and a slightly modified AK grip. You can probably make just about any AK grip work, but the SAW style is what I am including.
The grip mod consists of rounding the upper left front corner off to ease access to the slide release. You have to shift your grip slightly in order to hit it, but it doesn't pose a huge problem. The 1300's slide release is tiny and sucks even with the factory stock installed, but if you have one, you probably know that. My wife has much smaller hands than I do, and she could still operate the safety and the slide release.
Adapters are finished in flat black industrial powder coat, and include the pistol grip, plus all necessary hardware for installation. Shotgun, stock and folding mechanism not included. This is what you get:
Price is $80 (reduced) per set, shipped in the US. US Postal money order only, please. Thanks for looking.


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Proud American
In response to the "Wake up and vote" TalkBack, I feel sorry for that 70-plus-year-old veteran. I may not be happy with the way a lot of things are going in America right now, and I may be embarrassed by the way the politicians are running our country. But as a 63-year-old veteran having served 21 years in the military, nobody will ever hear me say that I am embarrassed to be an American. That phrase just isn't in my vocabulary.
Will someone tell me why the Aiken Department of Public Safety needs a Hummer?
Hitchcock meeting
At the meeting mentioned, Mayor Cavanaugh did not solicit comments from concerned citizens. He just banged the gavel, saying, "Meeting adjourned." Has he forgotten who he is supposed to represent? Why is it an embarrassment to Aiken for people to voice their opinions and concerns about the beautiful parkway? I see no evidence that 16,000 cars travel the parkway every day. For the most part, the traffic runs smoothly and even sparsely at times. Why would more lanes and more stop lights increase the flow of traffic? If having better access to the hospital is a concern, then why no comments about Whiskey Road and other bottlenecks? As for having "self-interest," wanting to spend millions of dollars unnecessarily reeks of it.
Hitchcock editorial
The editorial for August 14 states, "There's an undeniable need that Hitchcock Parkway should be expanded for the future. The question remains when..." That's somewhat like giving a crutch to all 4-year-old because sometime in the future it may be needed. Until that time they need to be maintained or repaired.
Obama opinions
Did you like what the president said about moving the middle class up, about bringing more to the middle class? How does that work with the doubling of gas prices in the last five years? If you are near the middle class, you may have been affected by sequestration, furloughs, Obamacare hidden taxes and penalties. He speaks in one direction yet works in the opposite.
Hunting or murder?
Is hunting a sport or premeditated murder? They camouflage themselves and use rifles. If they wanted to give the deer a chance, they would use hounds. I wonder what the Hitchcocks would think of this newfangled hunting?
Private schools
Why do we need more private schools, more magnet schools and more charter schools? Do they offer more, or do they just exclude more? Public schools offer arts, counselors, science and counseling. They already have diverse populations and have excited students and teachers. There is no support or volunteers.
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Your little Baltimore Orioles fan can keep warm in this awesome .300 Hitter hooded fleece sweatshirt. It features pouch pockets for the ultimate in convenience. Your little one will want to wear this Orioles sweatshirt everywhere. Go Orioles!
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Save Some Money, Win Exclusive Sports Figures
Friday, February 18, 2005
Spawn.com recently held a Valentine's Day contest in part to reward the McFarlane widows/widowers who have been playing second fiddle to our fans' action figure fixation! Our spawn.com Valentine's Day contest was designed to keep a little more money in your pocket by winning figures for yourself, so you can spend that money on your significant other.
The prize for entering the contest was 20 total sets of event exclusive figures to be given away to 20 lucky and hardworking winners. The contest was a multi-part deal. We first had everyone simply enter the online database with their name and contact information. We then randomly selected 50 of those entrants, contacted them and had them write us a paragraph -- with photos -- of why they have the best McFarlane significant other.
Then we had the tough task of winnowing them down to 20 winners.
That was tougher than it sounds. All the entries were very, very good. We have a legion of dedicated and creative fans out there in digital-land and a lot of put-upon spouses who deal with the madness.
Through a spawn.com team effort, we were able to determine the final 20 winners. They are:Mike White, Antioch, TNClint Jones, Irvine, CAJeff Weber, Washington, NCTravis Torina, Oakland, CARudy Maynard, Ferndale, MIJeevan Kaila, Vancouver, British Columbia, CanadaTimothy Corp, Los Angeles, CABrian Robinson, Regina, Saskatchewan, CanadaScott Leaver, Medicine Hat, Alberta, CanadaRichard Gaut, Ceres, CANorman Goo, Honolulu, HIMatt Unger, Pompton Lakes, NJEarle Duemke, Rockport, TXJason Prei, New Berlin, WIGonzo Coronado, Humble, TXLinda Papandrea, Brooklyn, NYBrian Carr, Los Angeles, CAWhitney Park, Lakewood, WAHelen Montgomery, Bryan, TXBrandon McGee, Hartland, MIWinners either receive a Super Bowl 39 Jacksonville set or a Latrell Sprewell and Carmelo Anthony NBA set.
Thanks again to everyone who entered.


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