text:
For Calvinism, the main soteriological conflict with Rome is not over sola fide, but sola gratia.
This is an ethereal, fictional "conflict", then, because "Rome" does not deny sola gratia at all. The real conflict is between the Catholic (biblical / somewhat "paradoxical") "both/and" perspective:
Catholicism / Bible / "Both / and" outlook: God does all and enables all, pertaining to grace and salvation, yet man can also cooperate with God and in a non-Pelagian sense "participate" in the process.and the typically Reformed "either/or" mentality:
Reformed / Calvinist outlook: God does all, therefore it is senseless and heretical to speak of man doing anything as regards to grace and salvation, and to do so is at least a semi-Pelagian position, detracting from God's sole work in salvation.Sola fide is just one aspect of sola gratia.
We do agree on that.
Rome denies sola fide because Rome is committed to synergism.
Rome denies sola fide because Rome is committed to biblical soteriology, and sola fide is unbiblical. But there is, nonetheless, much commonality between comparative Catholic and Reformed (or Lutheran) soteriology, if all views are rightly understood, beyond all the partisan polemics and misunderstandings and misrepresentations.
From a Reformed standpoint, therefore, it's deeply misleading to suggest that if you can just get sola fide out of the way, then all the other differences amount to a mopping up operation.
Granted, but why use the word "misleading", subtly implying that Dr. Koons was doing any such thing, when he made it clear in the very citation that Hays provided, that he was concentrating on the Lutheran/Catholic disagreements?: "the doctrine of justification is the crux of the Lutheran/Catholic controversy".
It's fine if Hays wants to bring in his Reformed approach to things (as a sort of "footnote" or aside), as long as he doesn't confuse the reader with regard to what Koons himself was attempting to argue. One can also treat the "Reformation" proper as the initial Lutheran expression of it, that occurred when John Calvin was only eight years old, and so obviously a non-player. This appears to be what Dr. Koons had in mind.
It's also odd to have him treat the debate over sola Scriptura as a secondary issue. For one of the questions at issue is whether the Catholic doctrine of justification is unscriptural. If Scripture is the rule of faith, as the source and standard of doctrine, then the exegetical foundation of any given doctrine is hardly a secondary issue.
This begs the question. Being "scriptural" and being in accordance with sola Scriptura are not one and the same. This is a clever sleight of hand often employed by Protestant apologists (akin to the fish not knowing that it is in water: to the Protestant, sola Scriptura is the water he lives in or the air he breathes; thus taken absolutely for granted), but it is a basic fallacy, according to Protestants' own given definition of sola Scriptura, which is, broadly speaking, as follows:
Sola Scriptura: the belief that Scripture is the only final, infallible authority in matters of Christian doctrine.For something to be "scriptural" or "biblical" on the other hand, is to be in accord with the following qualifications:
"Biblical" / "scriptural": supported by Scripture directly or implicitly or by deduction from explicit or implicit biblical teaching; secondarily: not contradicting biblical teaching.As we can see, the two things are quite different. This is how and why Dr. Koons (and myself and any Catholic) can be entirely committed to explaining and defending Catholic doctrine from Holy Scripture (indeed, it is my apologetic specialty and the focus of all my published books), while not adhering to sola Scriptura in the slightest. Protestants don't have a monopoly on Scripture; nor is sola Scriptura necessary to thoroughly ground doctrines in Scripture. The Protestant merely assumes this and goes on his merry way.
So when Hays caricatures the Catholic position as "exegetical foundation[s]" of any given doctrine supposedly being a "secondary issue" he is engaging in sheer obscurantism, straw men, and circular logic, because he has presupposed that sola Scriptura is essential to exegesis or desire to biblically support any doctrine, when it is not at all. Very clever, though. I've never denied that Hays was clever (even exceptionally so), but unfortunately, he is often guilty of sophistry and fallacious thinking (he thinks the same of me, lest someone thinks I am being unduly harsh).
We've already seen it, and we are only barely getting started. We'll observe much more of this as we examine his reply. It always takes a ton of work to thoroughly refute one of Hays' lengthy screeds, because they are filled with this sort of thing, and it is highly tedious and laborious to have to keep pointing out basic fallacies (doubtless one reason why few reply to his stuff, and why I knew I had to set aside significant time to do so myself).
There are two reasons why the Lutheran position must bear the burden of proof: the Lutheran doctrine was novel, and it precipitated a fragmentation of the Church's unity.
This begs the question, and it fails to draw an elementary distinction. "Novel" in relation to what? Novel in relation to Scripture or church history?
That might be true if it stood alone, but of course, Koons' paper goes on to delve into all these issues, and so it is not improper for him to make the claim and then go on and defend it from the Bible and history.
Even if sola fide were novel in relation to historical theology, that doesn't mean it's novel in relation to biblical theology.
Strictly speaking, that is correct; however, one has to immediately ask why, if something is so biblical and true, was it so difficult to locate in historic theology? Does God not have the power to guide the Christian Church in major areas of theology, so that she doesn't fall into serious heresy or, worse, apostasy? These are questions that the anti-Catholic, with his view of a widespread, horrendous loss of biblical truth and "the gospel" for some thousand years or so before Luther and Calvin appeared as the Grand "Reformers" of "biblical" truth, has to grapple with (but alas, rarely does). Both Catholics and Lutherans are highly concerned with historical continuity, both appeal to the Church Fathers, and both claim to uniquely preserve just that, in a dogmatic sense.
Even if it's novel in relation to Augustine or Chrysostom, that doesn't mean it's novel in relation to St. Paul.
That's right. But to be novel in relation to those two eminent Fathers is itself a novelty, given how both sides have argued through the years, in claiming to be legatees of the teaching of those two men and other eminent Church Fathers. Therefore, it is relevant to note whether there is actual agreement or disagreement, since Catholic, Lutherans, and Calvinists alike all appeal to St. Augustine as in agreement with their views.
Putting this another way, Tridentine theology might not be novel to Aquinas, but still be novel to St. Paul or St. John.
And of course, we argue that both Lutheran and Reformed theology is novel according to Augustine and Paul and John alike. It all has to be discussed at great length.
[passing over ecclesiological questions dealt with by Koons and Hays because it is too large of a separate issue and I want to center on soteriology: that makes up the bulk of Dr. Koons' paper]
Lutherans argue that an authoritative Church is unnecessary, since the Scriptures themselves can act as the judge in any case of doctrinal controversy. This claim depends of course on the thesis of the perspicuity or clarity of the Scriptures. I have not been able to find a consistent formulation of this thesis among Lutherans. Sometimes, it is admitted that the Scriptures are not always clear (as Peter writes about some of Paul's epistles). However, if the Scriptures are not always clear, then there will be questions about which it is not clear what, if anything, the Scriptures have to say. The Lutheran position, however, depends on the claim that, on every disputed question, the Scriptures can always act effectively as the supreme court of appeal.
Suppose that Koons is right about this? So what? What's the next step?
Obviously, to locate an alternative, biblical rule of faith; sola Scriptura having been shown to be unbiblical and false.
i) He acts as if there are only two choices: Catholicism or Lutheranism. Where is his argument for such a restrictive choice?
Not quite. The choice is between those who adhere to sola Scriptura (basically, all Protestants) and those who do not (Catholics, Orthodox, and perhaps a few very "high" Anglicans or "Anglo-Catholics" and Methodists of similar disposition). Koons deals with Orthodoxy on pp. 55-57, and in effect rules them out on the basis of their rejection of the papacy: itself grounded in Scripture.
ii) There is also the paradoxical way in which he allows a great deal of internal development and alteration in the case of Catholicism, while allowing no flexibility in the case of Lutheranism. Why treat Catholicism as fluid, but Lutheranism as static?
Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Lutheranism did overstate its case. Maybe it can't nail down quite as many things as it originally claimed.
Why does he cut Catholicism so much slack when he's unwilling to cut Lutheranism any slack? Why not make the same retrospective allowances for Lutheranism as he's made for Catholicism?
Because that is how Lutheranism views itself. It leaves little room for development of doctrine. So I would contend that Dr. Koons is simply treating Lutheranism according to its self-perception, which is only sensible and proper.
This is especially odd because he regards Catholicism as indefectible and, in some cases, infallible. So Catholicism ought to be less revisable than Lutheranism.
Indeed it is. Hays makes the usual Protestant (and especially anti-Catholic Protestant) misunderstanding that development entails change in any essential way. It does not at all.
iii) But suppose that Lutherans don't want to modify their position? Even if they are inflexible, how does that disprove other Protestant alternatives?
Why can't a Protestant say that where Scripture is silent, that's a point of liberty?
They could indeed do so, but most often they do not do this. Koons is not dealing with Hays' abstract mind-pictures, but with the reality of Lutheranism and larger Protestantism as it is.
It isn't necessary to stipulate in advance that Scripture has an answer to every question we pose. If Scripture offers no specific guidance on certain questions, how does that invalidate sola Scriptura? Why would it not mean that there is more than one right thing to do?
This is sensible; however, in practical terms it doesn't work, because if a non-scriptural "tradition" is appealed to in Protestantism, then the door is left wide open for contradiction and doctrinal chaos, because it then finds itself in "no-man's land" insofar as the Bible is silent and it has no binding authority other than Scripture: hence, chaos and competing truth-claims, which is a situation condemned, not encouraged in the Bible itself: particularly by the Apostle Paul.
Lutherans have held, in fact, that every doctrine taught by Scriptures is a doctrine upon which church fellowship hangs. The Book of Concord is an attempt (futile, in the end) to settle in advance every possible dispute about the interpretation of Scripture, in order to provide a sufficient and permanent basis for confessional unity.
And maybe Lutherans are wrong about that. Perhaps they overplayed their hand. But how is that an argument for Catholicism?
Why does Hays assume that every argument Dr. Koons makes is (in the latter's mind) automatically an "argument for Catholicism"? It doesn't have to be at all. It could simply be one more strike against Lutheranism. I don't see why Hays feels it necessary to do this logical hair-splitting and supposed reading of his opponent's mind. If Koons actually stated such a thing, Hays would have noted an indubitable logical truth, but Hays has not shown that Koons argued in such a way in the first place. That being the case, it is simply unhelpful nitpicking and minutiae.
Lutherans must insist that the Scriptures are not only clear, but clearly clear, when they are clear, and clearly unclear, when they are unclear. Even if the Scriptures are utterly clear on all the important doctrines, unless we can all tell exactly which passages address the 'important' doctrines, the Scriptures will not be able to act as the unmistakable judge in all doctrinal controversies.
Assuming that this is correct, it would only mean that Lutherans need to scale back some of their exaggerated claims, not that Catholicism is true.
As argued above, if sola Scriptura is shown to be unbiblical, untrue, and unworkable, then one must choose a substitute system, because (I agree) the issue of authority and the rule of faith is absolutely central to everything else in Christianity. So Hays can toy around with the logical minutiae and "possible possibilities" -- in his usual fashion -- but at the end of the day he (like all Protestants) has a huge and troubling issue that he has to resolve, and no one has done it satisfactorily within the Protestant system (least of all, Hays himself, because he deliberately deals only with the peripheries of the subject, rather than facing it head on), I would contend, with all due respect.
In the heat of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, it was quite possible for polemical theology to get a bit carried away, for fear of making any damaging concessions. And, from our distance, it is possible for us to modify or moderate excessive claims.
True. But that doesn't make it any less difficult for a Protestant to construct a coherent, cohesive, self-consistent system of authority today. The basic conundrum remains, as it always has.
For example, this is what a lot of Presbyterians have done in reference to the Puritan form of worship. They decided that the Puritans overreacted in this respect. Protestant theology has a capacity for self-criticism, and that's because we submit to the Bible as our rule of faith. Our commitment is to Scripture, and not to tradition—not even Protestant traditions.
Simply a (typically) circular appeal to the very thing being critiqued, and as such, obscurantism . . .
There is only one coherent basis for the doctrine of sola scriptura: an empirical, a posteriori argument that uses actual error to eliminate all other claimants to infallible. If it can be shown that popes and councils have actually erred (by contradicting the Scriptures, for example), then the Scriptures will be left as the only remaining infallible authority. This basis places a heavy burden of proof on the Lutheran side, however. The Lutheran must demonstrate, without begging any question, that popes and valid councils (when properly interpreted) have in fact erred when proclaiming dogma (that which must be taught and believed in the Church).
I agree that a Lutheran apologist or theologian (or Protestant in general) assumes a burden of proof. But why does he assume the sole burden of proof or even a preponderant burden of proof? Why isn't there an equal onus on a Catholic apologist or theologian to "demonstrate, without begging any question, that popes and valid councils (when properly interpreted) have never erred when proclaiming dogma"? Both sides have their own burden of proof to discharge.
I agree. But I would turn the tables (using one of Hays' favorite approaches) and argue: "assuming, for the sake of argument, that one has demonstrated catholic self-contradiction in dogmatic proclamations: does that automatically make sola Scriptura true by default?" Of course it does not. So the Protestant has as much burden of proof in establishing sola Scriptura, as the Catholic does for his system. And they have failed to do so in no uncertain terms. Hays himself will try to skirt the issue and wiggle himself out of his own dilemmas at every turn. We have seen it already, and we will till the end of his paper. It must be that way, because sola Scriptura is a thoroughly indefensible doctrine, any way you look at it. That's why it is simply assumed as true by most Protestants.
[passing over more non-soteriological arguments and garden-variety illogical objections to development of doctrine, in trying to get to our main focus]
Lutheran protestations to the contrary, I cannot believe that every proposition in the Book of Concord can be deduced directly from the text of Scripture, interpreted only by means of neutral, grammatical-historical methods. At some point, one has to make judgments about which system of theology best makes sense of the biblical data, and these human judgments will be fallible and variable, except where superintended by the Holy Spirit. Hence the need for an infallible magisterium of the Church.
Even if that's the problem, how is that the answer? You don't need a magisterium to ensure a certain result.
That's right, strictly speaking, yet in practical terms (since people invariably disagree in doctrines and interpretations), this is exactly what is needed. What the Catholic argues is that sola Scriptura is incoherent and unbiblical and unworkable. We then assert that our system is not any of those things. This is not absolute proof, true, but it is a necessary prerequisite to hold a biblical, rational belief in faith. What is true cannot be unbiblical and irrational.
What one requires, rather, is a doctrine of providence. God, in his providence, will see to it that his elect come to a saving knowledge of the truth. What is needed is not an infallible church, but infallible providence. Providence is a deterministic process, using various means to secure its appointed end.
That tells us nothing in concrete terms; it is merely a typically Protestant desperate, pious-sounding abstraction (and ultimately logically circular when actually applied to real human affairs). How does this help us attain to the truth unless someone can tell us with definite assurance, "this is the truth about doctrine x, and it is dogmatized in this Christian communion" (and provide some solid epistemological basis for believing same?
It is hard for me to believe that God intended the Scriptures to be the sole and sufficient norm for doctrine, given their silence on so many issues that must be resolved if the Church is to function: May infants be baptized? Should those baptized by heretics or hypocrites be re-baptized? Which baptized Christians may commune, and which should not? Should repentant heretics and sinners be reconciled to the Church, and if so, how and under what conditions? Should orthodox members of schismatic sects be excommunicated? Should orthodox members of non-schismatic congregations be excommunicated, if those congregations practice improperly 'open' communion? Must the threefold ministry of bishops, presbyters and deacons be respected at all times? How are clergy (in each order) to be ordained, elected, called or installed? Must there be at most one bishop in each city? What authority do bishops have, and what superior authority, if any, must they respect? What constitutes an authoritative council of the Church? These are matters upon which the Scriptures provide little explicit guidance, and yet, for practical reasons, it is impossible for Christians simply to agree to disagree about them.
Two basic problems:
i) He is assuming, without benefit of argument, that there can only be one right way of doing anything.
I don't see that above. What I see is a critique of ultimately insuperable problems in Protestantism, that even an atheist could make, because these judgments can be made independently of one's own belief-system.
He needs to foster a proper appreciation for the principle of the adiaphora. In many cases, there is more than one licit option available to us.
Scripture teaches that many mutually-exclusive views of baptism can be true at the same time? That's interesting . . .
ii) He is also trying to intuit God's intentions instead of bothering to study divine precedent. There was no magisterium in second temple Judaism. As a result, you had a great deal of diversity in thought and practice. Cf.
Why is what was acceptable for God's old covenant community unacceptable for God's new covenant community?
Because folks have learned a few things and advanced in understanding over hundreds of years. Because we now have the Holy Spirit to guide us, and the apostolic deposit, and the power of regeneration and the New Covenant. We have had the benefit of the teaching of the God-Man, Jesus, and that of the Apostles. We have the New Testament. I should think that even Steve Hays would readily agree that these are humungous differences between the Church and "second Temple Judaism."
If you want to know God's intentions for the future (e.g. the church age), a good place to start is with his historical modus operandi.
it is good, but it's just a start, which is the point. Hays and many like him cut this option off, in effect, by their goofy, twisted conception of what they mistakenly believe development of doctrine to be.
The sola scriptura position puts an impossible burden on each believer: in order to recognize true congregations, the individual believer must evaluate the congregation's confession for complete freedom from doctrinal error. To perform this task, the believer must not believe the essential doctrines of the faith, he must know exactly which doctrines are essential and which are a matter of legitimate difference of opinion. This seems inconsistent with the variety of talents, gifts and callings: not every believer can be expected to be a theologian. The sola scriptura theory condemns the majority of believers to de facto exclusion from the true church, by virtue of their inability to distinguish truth from error on all disputed matters.
This objection is predicated on a number of assumptions for which he offers no supporting argument:
i) There are degrees of responsibility according to one's aptitude and opportunities (Mt 25:14-30; Lk 12:48). Sola Scriptura doesn't not imply that every Christian has the same intellectual obligations.
Dr. Koons did not argue that it does; rather, he is saying that the logical reduction of the sola Scriptura position requires every believer to make basic, crucial decisions and choices and judgments that in fact are best reserved for the experts (or a magisterium, as it were). He sees this as a reductio ad absurdum, as opposed to accepting a state of affairs where everyone has to be a theologian or else they will be at a fundamental disadvantage. Hays has not shown how this doesn't apply; he simply (as so often) plays logical games around the edges. He offers no positive apologetic for sola Scriptura, which is exactly what he must do.
ii) There are degrees of doctrinal error. Why must one belong to a doctrinally inerrant denomination (or independent church)? Maybe I'm an amil. Does that prevent me from joining a premil church?
One has the burden of finding the "most true church" within Protestantism or else succumbing to doctrinal indifferentism and de facto relativism, as millions of Protestants do, because their system is of little use in leading them to theological certainty in faith.
iii) Not all "disputed matters" are matters of doctrinal truth and error. Some matters are disputed because of what the Bible has left unstated. That is left to individual discretion and conscience.
This is always the Protestant appeal, in trying to divert away from the crucial issues. It won't work. Baptism is not a secondary doctrine. Nor is sola fide, etc.
iv) Let's also remember that church membership, in the modern sense, is a postbiblical development. In the NT, baptism is the rite of church membership. A baptized Christian was a member of the NT church, period. There is no Biblical mandate to belong to a particular denomination. Church membership, in the modern sense (i.e. the age of schism and sectarianism) is adiaphorous.
So is denominationalism. Well said! yet every Protestantism is a member of a denomination, if only in the vaguest sense of "generic Protestant" -- which is different from historic Catholic Christianity and cannot historically trace itself back to the apostles.
The Catholic position, in contrast, places a reasonable burden on the layman: he must simply recognize which congregations are in fellowship with that global church that is most continuous historically with the church of the apostles, i.e., with that church that has the most secure claim to being the Catholic (universal) Church. In other words, the believer need master only one, relatively small set of doctrines: those concerning the identity of the true Church, not, as Lutheranism requires, an exhaustive knowledge of every disputed point of theology. This effectively limits the believer's choice to two: the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox, each of which recognizes the other as a part of the true visible church.
This is a classic case of special pleading:
i) Why should we assume that catholicity or historical continuity is the criterion? What about the possibility of institutional apostasy? We have examples of that in the OT.
Because both the Bible and common sense and logic rule that out. The Bible teaches indefectibility of the true Church (Matt 16:18; John 16:13; Acts 15:28 [implied] ). Paul presupposes that there is one truth and that it wold continue on in perpetuity in the Church. Apostolic succession is taught in Scripture. This, in turn, entails a state of affairs whereby there will always be an unbroken line of apostolic truth institutionalized in one historic Christian Church. The fathers teach the same. Protestantism departed from this understanding.
The argument from common sense and logic are that it is senseless for God to establish a new community of believers (granting His providence and omniscience and the indwelling and guidance of the Holy Spirit) and yet not enable it with enough power and protection to even survive through history. So we have both biblical indications and God's nature to lead us to the catholic and Orthodox view of the historical Church.
ii) Does he really think it's such a simple matter to identify the "true church"?
It is made rather more simple than it might be, due to insuperable Protestant internal difficulties and self-contradictions, both in actual denominational teaching and in Protestant foundational structures (sola Scriptura, the conundrum of an "unbiblical" canon, etc.).
iii) Isn't the identity of the true church related to true doctrine?
Absolutely. Hence, our belief in faith that God preserves true doctrine in His one true Church. And we can defend all our doctrines from Scripture, history, and reason.
Does he think a church that teaches false doctrine is a true church?
No; no more than a Protestant does. If we didn't think Catholic doctrine were true, we wouldn't be Catholic.
ii) Koons is also assuming there's only one true church,
As the Bible always assumes without even argument . . .
so that a Christian's mission in life is to go on a theological safari or expedition to discover the one true church. Now, that may reflect the Catholic outlook.
And the biblical one . . .
And that may also reflect the viewpoint of confessional Lutheranism.
Rightly so, because they recognize that the Bible teaches this over and over, and plainly . . .
But many evangelicals, myself included, do not take the position that there is one true denomination, such that we must continue our quest until we hit upon the long lost church of the apostles. That's all very romantic, and it makes for fun fiction, viz. In Search of Atlantis, the Holy Grail, the Fountain of Youth, King Solomon's Mines, &c. . . . most Evangelicals do not operate with such a nominalistic paradigm, as if the true church must be identified with one concrete particular throughout time and space.
This is a classic, textbook expression (complete with obligatory mockery and straw man construction) of postmodernist, relativistic, pessimistic, literally anti-biblical, faith-challenged mush, as I have critiqued in the following papers:
Anglican Anti-Traditional Principles of "Development" & the "Cult of Uncertainty" (vs. Dr. Edwin Tait)
Response to Rev. Michael Pahls on "Theological Humility" and the Protestant "Non-Quest" Regarding Christian Certainty (vs. Rev. Michael Pahls)Hays is reduced to embracing a counsel of despair: the very opposite of a hopeful, sunny biblical faith. In this mentality, one cannot find the one true Church of Scripture. It's futile to even try. God is not able to preserve one truth or lead His followers to it. This is how low Protestant sectarian chaos and doctrinal relativism has brought most Protestants. They no longer think it is even possible to find and believe in one Christian truth (it is viewed as a "romantic" and childlike notion, as we see Hays -- astonishingly -- do above). This was not at all true of the original Protestant "Reformers" (Luther, Calvin et al), but it has been the sadly predictable outcome of a ridiculous proliferation of contradictory beliefs.
Many denominations and independent churches exemplify the true church in varying degrees. And saving faith does not demand membership in a doctrinally inerrant church. There's a difference between good, better, and best.
How sad. How unbiblical.
Let's remember that even in NT times, the apostolic churches were not doctrinally inerrant.
Like the Council of Jerusalem? That is certainly not how they viewed what was going on at the time (Acts 15:28-29). And this binding decision had partially to do with something so trivial to us today; so "secondary" as what food to eat. Paul took the decision so seriously that he proclaimed it to the masses in his missionary travels (Acts 16:4). This is infallibility and inerrancy. No one was at liberty to dissent ("they delivered to them for observance") from "the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders".
For as soon as an apostle was away from one church, to plant or tend another, false teachers might come and sow seeds of heresy.
The existence of a heretic doesn't disprove the existence of a true Church any more than the existence of Arians disproved that there was an authoritative Council of Nicea that decisively refuted their errors. This is again, an illogical argument of despair. In its own way, this is perhaps the clearest indication that the Protestant like Hays has actually conceded the argument on authority to the Catholic, and admitted that Protestants really have no authority and are left to glib acceptance of irresolvable differences and relativism amongst themselves.
They're unable to accept Catholic authority in faith, based on Scripture and historical evidences, and so are left with this thoroughly unacceptable and unbiblical "alternative" of doctrinal relativism and no chance of finding one theological Truth or Church. This nonsense doesn't even comply with how Luther and Calvin and the original Protestants conceived of themselves. It's a postmodernist corruption even of historic or "classic, Reformation" Protestantism.
Dr. Koons continues to build on his powerful presentation. At one point, Hays charges (twice): "All assertion, no argument." Yet that is largely what he himself has been doing all along. He hasn't supported sola Scriptura or shown that it must be held from Scripture, to the slightest degree. He has given up the fight altogether, in terms of finding one true Church or even one true set of theological beliefs. He has adopted the counsel of despair.
At least Koons (both as a Lutheran in line with the authentic original heritage of that body, and as a Catholic) exercises faith in the traditional manner, related to doctrinal truths. Hays, on the other hand, seems too sophisticated to exercise such faith. He (like all atheists, in how they view any form of Christianity) knows better. He "knows" that such faith is only a child's fantasy, akin to Atlantis or the Fountain of Youth. Is this not pathetic? And Hays wants to claim that his approach is eminently biblical whereas Koons' and the Catholic outlook is allegedly not?
When Koons starts presenting patristic support for Catholic claims, Hays plays games with those and offers nothing substantial in rebuttal ("Cyprian was a critic of papal primacy", etc.: as if that is relevant to use of St. Cyprian as an advocate of generic apostolic succession).
Hays continues on with more of the same of this objectionable method of his, concluding:
He has cast the alternatives in the form of a straw man argument . . . No attempt to seriously examine the actual alternative. Such intellectual impatience and resort to demagogical caricature hardly befits a Christian philosopher. Moreover, it contradicts his own standard of charity. Is this the most charitable construction he can place on the opposing position?I couldn't make a better description of Hays' own method, myself. Of course, he can't see this, but he thinks he sees it in his opponent. He even resorts to rather stupid, refuted time and again, garden-variety objections:
How can Mary, as a human being, hear millions of daily prayers simultaneously, much less process millions of daily prayers?
Very simple: the saints, being with God in heaven, are outside of time. That being the case, they simply have no problem of number and sequence as we do, since we are temporal creatures, and hence, severely limited in that sense.
How did she "allow herself" to become the mother of Christ?
By saying "yes" to God at the Annunciation.
What control did she have over a virginal conception?
The power to say no! Perhaps Hays thinks that God would force her to bear Jesus if she didn't want to? He didn't force Adam and Eve to not rebel and to always do the right thing. He could have prevented the Fall had He done so. Likewise, God didn't force Mary to do anything she didn't want to do. She willingly agreed. In this instance, human free will did the right thing rather than the wrong thing.
What could she do to either cause it or prevent it?
Say no, just as Eve (and Adam) said yes to sin and brought about original sin and the Fall.
I was foolish enough to think that Hays was gonna deal with the soteriological arguments. But he never did. I believe someone else took a crack at them. I'll have to take a look at those. But Hays has offered us nothing here of any note or substance, to prove to anyone that Protestantism is a superior choice over Catholicism.


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How to Qualify. Joint Venture membership is available to business customers at the time of purchase of an Apple Macintosh computer ("Mac Computer"), iPhone or iPad from an Apple Retail Store or by calling 0800 058 2222. To activate your Joint Venture membership, you will need to follow the instructions as provided on the Joint Venture website at http://jointventure.apple.com/activate, and accept these Terms & Conditions. If you decide to return your Mac Computer, iPhone or iPad within fourteen (14) days of purchase, you will receive a full refund on your Joint Venture membership and your account will be deactivated.
Scope of Services. Subject to these Terms & Conditions, your Joint Venture Services entitle you to: (i) set-up services for newly purchased Mac Computers, iPods, iPhones and iPads ("Get Set Up"); (ii) training on Apple products and services ("Get Trained"); and (iii) first-line technical support resources ("Stay Running"), as described more fully below.
Registered Apple Products. Your initial Joint Venture membership provides Joint Venture Services for up to five (5) "Systems". For the purposes of these Terms & Conditions, a single System may consist of any of the following types and quantities of Apple products:
- One (1) Mac Computer,
- Two (2) Apple Cinema Displays,
- One (1) iPhone,
- One (1) iPod,
- One (1) iPad, and
- The following Apple-branded hardware peripherals associated with the System: mouse, keyboard, trackpad and storage device.
Apple products registered under Joint Venture are collectively referred to herein as "Registered Apple Products". You will have up to 30 days after the initial activation of your membership to register Apple products already owned by you prior to purchase of your membership. After this initial 30-day period, and for any membership renewal thereafter, only those products purchased directly from an Apple Retail Store or the Apple Online Store are eligible to be registered under Joint Venture (iPhones, however, are not required to be purchased directly from the Apple Retail Store or the Apple Online Store). Once you register an Apple product, it can only be replaced with another eligible product upon the renewal of your Annual Term (as defined herein) or if you purchase a new Apple product directly from an Apple Retail Store or an Apple Online Store in order to replace a functionally similar Registered Apple Product. Should you wish to register additional Apple products during an Annual Term, you will have the option to increase the number of Systems covered under your membership as described below under Uplift Options.
Product Eligibility. Apple reserves the right to test, evaluate and pre-approve any Apple products that you intend to register as Registered Apple Products, and Apple has the right to deny services for products for the following reasons: (a) products that are damaged or improperly functioning at the start of the Annual Term; (b) products that have been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple; (c) products in which any Apple serial number has been removed or defaced; (d) products containing counterfeit or non-Apple-approved parts; and (e) products containing malicious or harmful code ("malware") or unlicensed software. In addition, Apple reserves the right to refuse Joint Venture Services for Apple products that are more than five (5) years old at the time of your service request.
Uplift Options. Should you wish to increase the number of Systems covered under your membership during an Annual Term, you have the option to purchase additional Systems subject to payment of the Uplift Fee (defined below). Only those Apple products for which an additional Uplift Fee has been paid and registered under your Joint Venture membership will be considered Registered Apple Products. The maximum number of Systems that may be covered under your membership is limited to one hundred (100) per Annual Term — unless otherwise agreed to and authorised by Apple in writing and at its sole discretion.
Fees. Your membership fee is an annual fee calculated according to the number of Systems covered under your membership from the commencement date of each Annual Term ("Annual Fee"). An additional fee is payable if you wish to increase the number of Systems covered during an Annual Term ("Uplift Fee"). The Uplift Fee will be based on the number of Systems requested and prorated by the number of full months remaining in the Annual Term. The Annual Fee is the fee in effect at commencement of each Annual Term and the Uplift Fee is the fee in effect when an additional System is added to your membership during an Annual Term. Such Annual Fee and Uplift Fee are available on request at any Apple Retail Store or at http://jointventure.apple.com. The Annual Fee for the first year of your membership is payable upon purchase of the membership and on or before the expiration of the Annual Term for each Annual Term thereafter. The Uplift Fee is payable at the time you request the additional System be covered.
Annual Renewal. At the end of each Annual Term, you will have the opportunity to renew your membership and adjust up (to 100) or down (to 5) the total number of Systems covered under your membership, and your Annual Fee will be adjusted accordingly. You will also have the opportunity at that time to replace Registered Apple Products with other eligible Apple products. If you decide to renew your membership, the Annual Fee is payable before the expiration of the current Annual Term. If you do not pay your Annual Fee before commencement of the next Annual Term, Apple reserves the right to cancel your membership without further warning.
Joint Venture Services consist of Get Set Up, Get Trained and Stay Running. All Joint Venture Services are subject to availability. To request Joint Venture Services, access the Joint Venture portal through the latest version of Mac OS X and Safari at http://jointventure.apple.com and follow the instructions for requesting Get Set Up, Get Trained or Stay Running services.
Get Set Up. Members are entitled to the set-up of newly purchased Mac Computers, iPhones, iPads and iPods registered under Joint Venture.
All Get Set Up services must take place in an Apple Retail Store and prior to use of your new Apple product. If you put any data or information on your Apple product prior to Get Set Up service, it will be erased and the Apple product will be restored to its factory condition prior to transferring the data from your old computer or device. Upon your request, we will install any hardware and software published on physical media that was purchased from an Apple Retail Store or Apple Online Store in conjunction with the purchase of your new Apple product.
Get Set Up services for Mac Computers include the data transfer of files from an old computer (PC or Mac) to your new Mac Computer and the transfer of email, contacts, calendars, music, photos, bookmarks and documents from the user accounts on your old computer.
In order to take advantage of file transfer services, your old computer must be able to properly start up and be virus free. In addition, any PC must be running Windows XP Service Pack 3 or later and have a working Ethernet port. If you're migrating data from a Mac, your system must be running Mac OS X 10.5 or later and have a working Ethernet, Firewire, Thunderbolt, or USB port.
Please note that if you put data or information on your Mac computer prior to your file transfer, it will be erased and the Mac will be restored to its factory condition prior to transferring the data from your old computer.
In order to transfer mail, calendar and contacts data that may reside on a business server (e.g., Microsoft Exchange), you must have the appropriate username, password and domain information to attempt the transfer. Apple does not guarantee the transfer of all data from a computer to a Mac Computer, as certain server configurations and data — including without limitation certain email, contacts, calendar, financial data and other applications (e.g., Windows versions of QuickBooks) — may not be supported. Please see a Genius for specific questions you may have concerning non-Apple applications.
Get Set Up services for iPhone, iPad and iPod include assistance with enabling your device, setting up email accounts, installing applications, personalising your device, transferring your address book (iPhone only) and providing a brief tutorial on the various features available on your device.
Get Trained. "Get Trained" services give your business up to three (3) two-hour sessions of Apple instructor time per Annual Term to provide group training for your employees at an Apple Retail Store. You may cancel a booked session with at least 24 hours' notice. However, should you cancel with less than 24 hours' notice, or not show up for a booked session, you will be deemed to have used that session. All sessions must be booked a minimum of three (3) weeks in advance, unless otherwise available and agreed upon in advance by the facilitating Apple Retail Store. For optimal training, Apple may limit a training session to no more than eight (8) individuals. Training and workshop topics and availability are determined by Apple and subject to change at Apple's reasonable discretion. Any instructor time remaining unused at the end of each Annual Term may not be rolled-over to subsequent Annual Terms.
Stay Running. "Stay Running" services give you the ability to request technical advice and service for your Registered Apple Products by requesting either a call-back from a remote Genius or an appointment at the Genius Bar. Call-backs provide technical support on your Registered Apple Products and efforts are made to resolve technical issues over the phone. If a remote Genius cannot resolve your issue over the phone, an appointment will be scheduled for you with an Apple Genius at your local Apple Retail Store. If a remote Genius determines you have a hardware problem, the Genius will confirm whether the local Apple Retail Store has the necessary parts and, if not, will order the parts for you. Stay Running support includes assistance determining when hardware repairs are required, providing estimated repair turnaround times, and arranging for (but not undertaking) repair service. Please note that parts and service fees may be applicable if your Registered Apple Products are not covered under warranty or an extended service contract, as more fully described below under "Joint Venture Services and Product Warranties".
Other Stay Running services include the following:
Equipment Loan Service. If the issue with your Mac Computer requires us to keep it for more than twenty-four (24) hours, you will be provided the option of borrowing a similar Apple product from our pool of loan products ("Loan Products") based on availability at your local Apple Retail Store. Apple is not obliged to provide a Loan Product that is the same as, or of equivalent or better functionality or appearance to, your Mac Computer; nor does Apple make any representation that a specific software programme is or will be installed on your Loan Product. Please see below for additional terms and conditions relating to this Equipment Loan Service.
Anytime Tune-up. Anytime Tune-up. You may make an appointment to bring a Registered Apple Product to the Apple Retail Store for a 'tune-up'. Apple will run diagnostics to determine if your product is functioning properly. Upon your request, we will install any hardware and software published on physical media and that was purchased from an Apple Retail Store or Apple Online Store, and we'll clean your keyboard and monitor.
To access Stay Running services, visit the Joint Venture portal for access options or follow the directions provided. Select an available time when it's convenient for a remote Genius to call you back, or book an appointment at an Apple Retail Store to get an Apple Genius to assist you. Remote Geniuses are available Monday to Friday 8 a.m. – 8 p.m., local time. Please note that you may have a maximum of three (3) callback appointments booked at any given time. In delivering Joint Venture Services via phone, calls may be recorded for quality assurance and reference purposes.
Joint Venture Services and Product Warranties. Please note that your Registered Apple Products may be covered by a limited warranty from Apple and/or an extended service contract, such as the AppleCare Protection Plan ("APP"). It is your responsibility to review and identify any rights and remedies, as well as the scope and limitations of repair and technical support covered under those warranties. Please note, however, that the Stay Running and the other Joint Venture Services outlined above are not product warranties or an extended service contract, but rather a programme that provides additional access to technical support resources and services only (e.g., call-backs, appointments, training, Loan Products and Anytime Tune-up). Your rights under these Joint Venture Terms & Conditions are separate and distinct from any other rights you may have under Apple's limited product warranty and/or an APP and/or by law. For instance, although you may be entitled to the Equipment Loan Service under these Joint Venture Terms & Conditions, if one of your Registered Apple Products is no longer covered under an Apple warranty or an extended service contract, such as APP, you will still be responsible for parts and service fees as shown on the documentation and Repair Terms and Conditions presented to you when authorising Apple to repair your Registered Apple Product.
Term and Eligibility. The term of membership is for one (1) year commencing on the date of activation of your membership by you at http://jointventure.apple.com/activate for the first year and, if you extend your membership and pay the Annual Fee, on each anniversary thereafter (each year an "Annual Term"). Membership expires at the end of the Annual Term unless you notify us that you wish to extend your membership prior to expiration. If you do not renew your membership by the end of your Annual Term, but subsequently decide to purchase a new membership within one year of expiration, only those Apple products purchased directly from an Apple Retail Store or the Apple Online Store (except for iPhone) will be eligible for registration under Joint Venture. Joint Venture membership is offered to businesses only (i.e., legally recognised entities such as sole traders, partnerships, companies and associations), and Apple reserves the right to verify business status and reject or cancel membership at its reasonable discretion. Joint Venture Services are available only for Registered Apple Products owned by you and used in your business, and are not available in any manner for personal use or to third-party service providers seeking service for any Apple product owned by others. If Joint Venture is purchased by a minor (under 18), the minor's parent or guardian must be present to agree to these Terms & Conditions and must be present for the duration of any Joint Venture Service. Joint Venture Services are valid only at Apple Retail Store locations for Registered Apple Products owned and registered in your name. Joint Venture Services are not transferable to any other person or entity.
Additional "Get Trained" Terms. Services provided pursuant to Get Trained are available only at Apple Retail Store locations for you and your business' direct employees. Training sessions and workshops are intended for informational purposes only and Apple makes no representation, undertaking, promise or warranty that any information provided during such training is appropriate for your business or should be relied upon by you. These services can be facilitated through your Registered Apple Products or, in some cases, the Apple Retail Store may provide similar products (at its sole discretion) for the session if you do not wish to use your own.
Additional Equipment Loan Terms. When participating in the Equipment Loan Service, you represent, warrant, acknowledge and agree that (i) you shall keep the Loan Product safe and secure and shall take all reasonable care of any Loan Product; (ii) you shall return the Loan Product when either we inform you that your Registered Mac Computer is available for collection from Apple or when it has been delivered to you (whichever is the earlier); (iii) if you do not return the Loan Product, Apple may, at its sole and absolute discretion, pursue any rights and remedies available to it at law or in equity; (iv) you are responsible for any damage, loss or abuse of the Loan Product while in your care and you will be responsible for the full purchase price of the Loan Product in the event of loss, or the cost of repair or replacement in the event of damage or abuse; (v) the Loan Product is solely a loaned product for your business use while your Registered Apple Product is being repaired or otherwise serviced by Apple; (vi) you must not use the Loan Product for any unlawful purpose, and (vii) only software with valid licences shall be installed on the Loan Product. Further, you acknowledge that prior to returning the Loan Product, you will erase any and all files placed on the Loan Product while in your possession, and you acknowledge and agree that Apple bears no responsibility or liability for any files or data remaining on the Loan Product following its return. You further acknowledge that when the Loan Product is returned, any remaining files, including without limitation any business and/or personal files and data, will be erased. It is your sole and exclusive responsibility to separately back up any files you wish to retain that were created while in possession of the Loan Product.
When participating in the Equipment Loan Service, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ALL SOFTWARE PROVIDED WITH THE LOAN PRODUCT IS LICENSED SPECIFICALLY TO APPLE FOR USE ON THE LOAN PRODUCT AND IS NOT TO BE REMOVED IN ANY MANNER FROM THE LOAN PRODUCT. YOU WILL NOT COPY OR OTHERWISE REPRODUCE, REVERSE ENGINEER, DISASSEMBLE OR DECOMPILE ANY SOFTWARE OR COMPONENTS PROVIDED WITH THE LOAN PRODUCT. All right, title and interest in and to the Loan Product shall at all times remain vested in Apple. Nothing in these Terms & Conditions or Apple's relationship with you shall be construed as conveying to you any right, title or interest in or to the Loan Product or any component thereof, except as expressly permitted by these Terms & Conditions and only for the limited purpose specified herein. You may be required to agree to additional terms in order to take advantage of the Equipment Loan Service. Loan Products are not available if your registered Mac Computer is in Apple's possession only for an Anytime Tune-up service.
Privacy Policy. You agree and understand it is necessary for Apple to collect, process and use your and your Personnel's (as defined below) personal information in order to perform the service and support obligations under your Joint Venture membership. Members will also receive periodic membership-related emails from Apple, such as notices regarding expiration of your account and changes to the programme. You may also receive requests to participate in Member surveys. Apple will protect your information in accordance with Apple's Privacy Policy, available at www.apple.com/uk/legal/privacy. If you wish to have access to the information Apple holds concerning you or if you want to request that Apple updates, suppresses or deletes your information, go to https://appleid.apple.com to update your personal contact preferences, or you may contact Apple at http://www.apple.com/uk/privacy/contact/.
Preventing Data Loss. You agree and understand that Apple shall not be responsible or liable for any loss, damage, corruption, disclosure or alteration of any files, software folders, data, programs or any of your confidential, proprietary, business and/or personal information or removable media ("Data"). You are responsible for any and all restoration and reconstruction of lost, damaged, corrupted or altered Data and it is up to you to maintain and implement a complete Data backup and disaster recovery plan. You will ensure that any information or Data disclosed to Apple is not confidential or proprietary. YOU ARE OBLIGED TO TAKE ADEQUATE MEASURES TO AVERT AND REDUCE POTENTIAL DATA LOSS AND DAMAGES. IN PARTICULAR, BEFORE ANY PRODUCT IS BROUGHT IN FOR JOINT VENTURE SERVICE, IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO BACK UP ALL EXISTING DATA ON YOUR COMPUTER DISKS AND/OR DRIVES, AND REMOVE ANY CONFIDENTIAL, PROPRIETARY OR PERSONAL INFORMATION, AND DISCONNECT MEDIA OR DEVICES SUCH AS CDS, DVDS, PC CARDS OR FLASH DRIVES.
Licensed Software. If any Joint Venture Service involves accessing, using or transferring data stored on a Mac Computer, old computer, iPhone, iPad or any other product, you represent, warrant and undertake that you have the legal right to access, copy or use any such data and to permit Apple to do so, and you authorise any such access, copy and use by Apple. You also represent, warrant and undertake that if any Joint Venture Service involves installing software on a product, you have the legal right to agree to the terms of any applicable software licence and you authorise Apple to accept such terms on your behalf in performing the services.
Conduct. Apple reserves the right to refuse, limit or cancel any Joint Venture Service and/or membership for any reasonable cause, including without limitation if any individual participating in services in the opinion of Apple has displayed unreasonable behaviour; is deemed to be violent, abusive or disruptive; has provided false, misleading or fraudulent information; has sought and/or received services in a fraudulent or abusive manner; or has otherwise breached these Terms & Conditions.
You are Responsible for Your Personnel. As a Joint Venture member, you understand and agree that you are responsible and liable for the actions of your employees, associates, members and/or any other representative or agent designated by you to receive Joint Venture Services ("Personnel"), and that you will indemnify Apple and its subsidiaries and affiliates, and their respective directors, officers, employees and agents, against any and all actions, demands, settlements, damages, liability, claims, suits, losses, costs and legal fees caused by, arising out of or resulting from: (a) any negligent act or omission by or any wilful misconduct on the part of you or your Personnel; (b) your or your Personnel's failure to comply with any applicable law; (c) any bodily injury, personal injury, death or property damage caused by you or your Personnel; (d) an allegation that anything provided by you or your Personnel misappropriated, violated or infringed any third party's patent, copyright, trademark, trade secret, mask work or other intellectual property or proprietary right.
Ownership of Materials. Ownership of all copyright and other intellectual property rights in the Apple training materials, including without limitation any documentation, data, technical information and know-how provided to you and/or your Personnel as part of Get Trained services remains vested in Apple or its suppliers. All such information shall be held in confidence and may not be disclosed or copied to third parties, without the express written permission of Apple or its suppliers.
Disclaimer of Warranties and Implied Terms. APPLE WARRANTS THAT THE JOINT VENTURE SERVICES SHALL BE PROVIDED WITH REASONABLE CARE AND SKILL. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, YOU AGREE THAT ALL DOCUMENTATION, PUBLICATIONS OR OTHER INFORMATION PROVIDED BY OR ON BEHALF OF APPLE ARE FURNISHED ON AN "AS-IS", "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND AS TO THEIR ACCURACY OR COMPLETENESS. THE WARRANTIES, TERMS, CONDITIONS AND REMEDIES CONTAINED IN THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS ARE EXCLUSIVE AND IN LIEU OF ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, CONDITIONS, TERMS, UNDERTAKINGS AND REPRESENTATIONS. EXCEPT AS PROVIDED HEREIN, AND TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, APPLE SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS AND EXCLUDES ANY AND ALL STATUTORY OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, CONDITIONS, TERMS, UNDERTAKINGS, OBLIGATIONS AND REPRESENTATIONS RELATED TO OR ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OR THE JOINT VENTURE SERVICES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY, TERM OR CONDITION OF MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, CARE, SKILL, DESCRIPTION OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. APPLE SPECIFICALLY DOES NOT WARRANT, UNDERTAKE OR PROMISE THAT IT WILL BE ABLE TO (i) RESOLVE ANY SUPPORT INCIDENT WITHOUT RISK TO OR LOSS OF SOFTWARE PROGRAMS OR DATA, OR (ii) MAINTAIN THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF DATA. NO APPLE EMPLOYEE OR AGENT IS AUTHORISED TO MAKE ANY MODIFICATION, EXTENSION OR ADDITION TO THIS WARRANTY.
Limitation of Liability. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, APPLE AND ITS AFFILIATES, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS WILL UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES BE LIABLE UNDER OR IN CONNECTION WITH THESE TERMS & CONDITIONS OR ANY COLLATERAL CONTRACT FOR: (i) ANY SPECIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL LOSS OR DAMAGE; OR (ii) LOSS OF, DAMAGE TO OR CORRUPTION OF DATA INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO COSTS OF RECOVERING, REPROGRAMMING OR REPRODUCING ANY PROGRAM OR DATA; OR (iii) THE INABILITY TO USE OR ACCESS YOUR REGISTERED APPLE PRODUCT OR ANY OTHER COMPUTER, EQUIPMENT, DEVICE, SOFTWARE, NETWORK OR SYSTEM; OR (iv) THE FAILURE TO MAINTAIN THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF DATA; OR (v) ANY LOSS OF BUSINESS, PROFITS, CONTRACTS, REPUTATION OR GOODWILL, REVENUE OR ANTICIPATED SAVINGS, IN EACH CASE HOWSOEVER ARISING, WHETHER SUCH LOSS OR DAMAGE WAS FORESEEABLE OR IN THE CONTEMPLATION OF THE PARTIES AND WHETHER ARISING UNDER STATUTE OR ARISING IN OR FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), BREACH OF STATUTORY DUTY OR OTHERWISE.
Liability not excluded or limited. NOTHING IN THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS SHALL LIMIT OR EXCLUDE APPLE'S LIABILITY FOR: (i) DEATH OR PERSONAL INJURY CAUSED BY ITS NEGLIGENCE; (ii) FRAUD; (iii) BREACH OF TERMS REGARDING TITLE IMPLIED BY S.12 OF THE SALES OF GOODS ACT 1979 AND/OR THE SUPPLY OF GOODS AND SERVICES ACT 1982; OR (iv) ANY LIABILITY TO THE EXTENT THE SAME MAY NOT BE EXCLUDED OR LIMITED AS A MATTER OF LAW.
Service Limitations. Apple reserves the right to refrain from providing any or all requested Joint Venture Services and instead refund your payment, in whole or in part, on the basis that your technical needs or extent of services required are unusual or extensive or beyond the scope of these Terms & Conditions as reasonably determined by Apple.
Force Majeure. Apple will not be liable for performance delays or for non-performance due to causes beyond its reasonable control.
Waiver. A waiver of any breach or default under these Terms & Conditions shall not constitute a waiver of any subsequent breach or default.
Severability. If a court of competent jurisdiction holds that any provision of these Terms & Conditions is invalid or unenforceable, the remaining portions will remain in full force and effect. If permitted by law, the parties will replace the invalid or unenforceable provision with a valid and enforceable provision that achieves the original intent of the parties and economic effect of the Terms & Conditions.
Cancellation and Change in Terms & Conditions. Subject to applicable law, Apple reserves the right to substitute, change, terminate or add to these Terms & Conditions upon not less than thirty (30) days' notice. Amendments to these Terms & Conditions will be reflected on the Joint Venture website and at www.apple.com/uk/retail/business/jointventure/terms.html, and you should check them from time to time. If Apple terminates these Terms & Conditions or your membership, you will receive a pro-rata refund for the unexpired term. Without limiting any other right or remedy, Apple may terminate these Terms & Conditions immediately if you make a misrepresentation or breach any of the Terms & Conditions. If Apple terminates these Terms & Conditions due to your material misrepresentation or material breach, the sums paid for Joint Venture will be non-refundable without limiting any other remedy Apple may have. You may cancel your membership at any time for any reason by calling, visiting or providing written notice to your local Apple Retail Store. Unless applicable law provides otherwise, if you cancel within fourteen (14) days of purchase, you will receive a full refund. If you cancel more than fourteen (14) days after purchase, the sums paid for Joint Venture will be non-refundable. All terms and conditions, limitations, exclusions and warranties contained herein that by their sense and context are intended to survive the termination of these Terms & Conditions, shall so survive.
Governing Law. The construction, validity and performance of these Terms & Conditions and all non-contractual obligations arising from or connected with this these Terms & Conditions are governed by the laws of England, without regard to conflicts of law principles, and the parties irrevocably submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the English courts with respect to any dispute arising hereunder. You should keep copies of these Terms & Conditions and any sales receipts or other materials for your records.
Complete Agreement. These Terms & Conditions including any additional terms referenced herein constitute the entire agreement between Apple and you with regard to the Joint Venture programme and the services provided thereunder, and supersedes all prior negotiations, agreements, arrangements and understandings with respect to the subject matter, and no addition to or deletion from or modification of any of the provisions hereto shall be binding upon Apple unless made in writing and signed by an authorised representative of Apple. Any term or condition on any order or other document submitted by you shall be of no force or effect whatsoever, and is specifically rejected. No representation, undertaking or promise shall be taken to have been given or implied by anything said or written in negotiations between the parties prior to the date of the contract between us. You shall not have any remedy in respect of any untrue statement made by Apple upon which you relied in entering into these Terms & Conditions (unless such untrue statement was made fraudulently or was to a fundamental matter including a matter fundamental to Apple's ability to perform its obligations under these Terms & Conditions) and your only remedies shall be for breach of contract as provided in these Terms & Conditions. Misrepresentations as to fundamental matters shall be subject to the terms of the limitations and exclusions of liability set out in these Terms & Conditions.
Not a legal joint venture. The relationship between Apple and you is that of independent contractors dealing at arm's length. Nothing in these Terms & Conditions shall constitute the parties as partners, joint venturers or co-owners, or constitute either party as the agent, employee or representative of the other, or empower either party to act for, bind or otherwise create or assume any obligation on behalf of the other, and neither party shall hold itself out as having authority to do the same. You further agree and understand that by purchasing a Joint Venture membership, you shall not use trademarks, service marks, trade names, logos or product names or services owned by or licensed to Apple in connection with your business in any manner whatsoever, or act in any manner that implies an endorsement of your company by Apple or a legal joint venture between you and Apple.

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Community Emergency Response Team (CERT)
In the wake of a disaster, "professional" fire and medical responders may be unavailable due to debris and road damage. There may be an overwhelming need for emergency response in all areas of the city. Learning basic disaster skills would help you lessen the impact of disaster on your family and neighbors until assistance arrives.
The goal of the CERT program is to provide for community self-sufficiency in a post disaster environment.
Course Description:
CERT is "Neighbors Helping Neighbors." The 24 hours of instruction can provide a trained volunteer work force in your neighborhood. Our "ideal" CERT member is anyone who desires to learn the skills to assist themselves and their neighbors during a disaster. The class meets one evening per week for eight weeks. Please wear weather-appropriate clothing that you don't mind getting dirty. The course consists of:
CERT members are also encouraged to get their amateur radio license to assist in disaster communications. This requires a multiple-choice test on basic electronics, FCC rules, and radio operations.
Financial Commitment
The City will provide:
We ask each member to complete his or her own CERT supplies kit by the end of the course. This will allow you to assist your neighbors and minimize the impact in your area.
Neighborhood Commitment
Spreading the word and committing to the "neighbors helping neighbors" philosophy is great incentive to get to know your neighbors, find out what special skills and interests they have. CERT is a perfect complement to the Neighborhood Watch program, homeowners' association, or other existing neighborhood leadership structure.
For infomration on CERT training and the next available class email Hillsboro Emergency Management or call 503-681-6166
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Man held after brandishing gunApril 19,2013Man held after brandishing gun
BENNINGTON — A Readsboro man is being held without bail after police said he pointed a gun at two people during a family argument on April 9.
Christopher M. Crockwell, 32, of Readsboro, was arraigned on April 10 in Bennington criminal court on a felony charge of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and a misdemeanor charge of reckless endangerment.
Police said Crockwell called them on April 9 to say that he had gotten into an altercation with two of his girlfriend's relatives which he said started when he began to "roughhouse" with his girlfriend's two children and the child of a friend.
Crockwell said the adults were upset because they believed he was "taking it too far" with the children. Crockwell said the argument became violent and he took out a pistol for self-protection.
However, he also admitted to drinking alcohol which violated a condition of his probation in Massachusetts.
Police said they spoke to two of the children on April 9 and both said Crockwell sometimes hurts them when he is "playing." They said he sometimes won't stop even when they tell him he is hurting them, according to the affidavit.
On Thursday, Bennington County Deputy State's Attorney Jennifer Barrett argued that Crockwell should be held without bail because he possessed a gun and drank alcohol, which were violations of his conditions of probation. Barrett said the state believed Crockwell had demonstrated he was not willing to follow court orders.
Judge Cortland Corsones agreed and ordered Crockwell held without bail until the charges are resolved.MORE IN This Just InThe family of a Connecticut man who was killed in a car accident on Route 4 last Friday night is... Full StoryAssociated Press Full StoryIt seems like I just started to warm up from last winter and I see back-to-school displays. Full Story
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- RICHARD'S POOR ALMANACK: On this day in 1249 AD, ANDRE of LONGJUMEAU is dispatched by LOUIS IX of France to meet the KHAGAN, ruler of the Mongol Empire; in 1804, during 1st Barbary War, STEPHEN DECATUR scuttles the pirate-held USS Philadelphia in Tripoli.


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Only hotels in Mont-Royal are listed below. Explore our guide for inexpensive and discount hotel/motel rates in or near Mont-Royal, QC for your business or personal leisure travel. Explore the most favored Mont-Royal Quebec hotel rooms. Review the Mont-Royal hotel list below to find the perfect lodging. We also have a map of the Mont-Royal hotels. Group booking? Search Mont-Royal Group Hotel DiscountsThe Mont-Royal center point is around 1 mile from Montreal Holocaust Museum and 1 mile from University of Montreal.
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Cinnamon Blueberry Jam Recipe
- 1 pound fresh or frozen blueberries (about 1 quart)
- 3-1/2 cups sugar
- 1 tablespoon bottled lemon juice
- 1/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon
- 1/8 teaspoon ground cloves
- 1 pouch (3 ounces) liquid fruit pectin
- Crush blueberries; measure 2-1/2 cups and place in a large saucepan. Add the sugar, lemon juice, cinnamon and cloves; bring to a rolling boil over high heat, stirring constantly. Quickly stir in the pectin. Return to a full rolling boil; boil for 1 minute, stirring constantly.
- Remove from the heat; skim off foam. Carefully ladle hot mixture into hot half-pint jars, leaving 1/4-in. headspace. Remove air bubbles; wipe rims and adjust lids. Process for 10 minutes in a boiling-water canner. Yield: 4 half-pints.
Reviews for Cinnamon Blueberry Jam
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"I made this jam as the favor for my wedding. I got so many raves about it! This is going to be a staple in my home forever!"
"I adapted this to use in my jam maker, the added spices perk up the blueberry flavor. Gave it as Xmas gifts and it was well received."
"Excellent! This was my first attempt at making jam and it was a success. Delicious recipe! Thank you for sharing it."
"Easy and Delicious! I omitted the cloves, but otherwise made exactly as stated. This made 5 half pints plus a 4 oz. jar. Excited about giving these later in the year for Christmas gifts. Will definitely be making more with my remaining berries. Thanks for sharing Barbara!"
"As someone who has made jam for 20 years, this recipe is a stand-out!!!!! I live in New England, where local blueberries are abundant in the summer months, so I will be making this jam ALOT!!! Excellent & easy. BUT VERY IMPORTANT-NEVER, EVER ALTER A JELLY OR JAM RECIPE. IT WILL AFFECT THE SET OF YOUR HARD WORK. Jellies & jams are not like typical recipes where you can tweak them-measure accurately & follow the recipe exactly for perfect product every time. Good luck!!!!!!"


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- As far as I know I am using the most up to date USB Loader GX and DIOS MIOS
- This one I am not to sure of (D2x v8 wads), would you happen to have a link to this so I may install it?
- I am backing up my Super Smash Bros Melee from a legit copy and yes it is compatible (the link on the front page says it was)
- Also what is the NMM?
Thanks for helping me out man!
EDIT: I just downloaded the D2x v8 and put it into the "apps" folder on my SD. I then launched in from the homebrew channel but I am unsure which settings I need:
- Select cIOS:
- Select cIOS bse:
- Select cIOS slot:
- Select cIOS revision:


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LAS CRUCES, N.M. - The New Mexico State softball team split on the final day of the Troy Cox Classic with a 9-2 win over Colorado State in the first game of the day and a 5-3 loss to Texas tech in extra innings on Sunday afternoon at the NM State Softball Complex. The Red Raiders broke up a 3-3 tie in the eighth inning courtesy of the international tiebreaker rule that placed a runner at second to start the eighth inning.
On the day, the Aggies tallied 20 total hits between the two games as Malena Padilla and Staci Rodriguez each picked up four in the double bill. The Aggies are now 7-4 on the season, while finishing the Troy Cox Classic 3-3.
"Overall, it was a good weekend. We grew, got better and are continuing to get better with every game," head coach Kathy Rodolph said. "We are learning to play under pressure and learning what it means to be in those really close ball games. Each piece of the puzzle is getting better, and I am pleased with that. Wins and losses don't always show you that, but I definitely feel it with our team."
In the first game of the day, Amber Olive led the way with a three-base shot to right center, before Kristi Covarrubia lined out to the pitcher. Rodriguez was next to the plate and hit her first single of the day to plate the first run for NM State. Lacey Rother and Tina Cisneros reached base to bring Padilla to the plate, who hit a bomb to the left side to plate three runs for NM State. With Kelsey Dodd next at the plate, she hit a solo homerun to give the Aggies a 5-0 lead going into the top of the second.
The Aggies sent Colorado State down in order in the top half of the second inning, then came back with freshman Emma Adams leading off. She took her base after getting hit in the shoulder and was brought into scoring position by a single by Olive.
In the home half of the third, Dodd and senior Tehani Kaaihue hit back-to-back doubles with Kaaihue's shot to center scoring Dodd. NM State was able to stop the Rams from crossing the plate after three runners reached base. An RBI double by Rodriguez in bottom of fourth scored the Aggies eighth run after NM State gave up a two-run homerun in the top half of the inning.
Covarrubia drove in the ninth run of the day for NM State by putting the ball in play to shortstop in the latter part of the fifth. A bad throw by CSU worked to the Aggies advantage as Olive plated her second run of the game and secured the Aggie win.
Senior Alex Newman made the start for NM State and worked for 2.1 innings before freshman Makayla McAdams took the job in the circle. McAdams worked for the remainder of the game and put CSU away in order off strikeouts in the top of the sixth.
Newman started the second game for NM State as well and worked seven complete innings with one strikeout and four earned runs. She finished the day with 9.1 innings to her name and the owner of a 3.00 ERA on the day. She took the loss in game two, moving her hurling record to 4-3, while boasting a 2.60 ERA through her nine appearances.
Game Two
The senior was perfect through the first two innings, sitting Texas Tech down in order through both innings. She retired the first two in the second inning before allowing the first hit of the day from the cleanup hitter, Cara Camello with a shot up the left line.
The Aggies picked up the first run of the game with a single RBI by Rodriguez, her fourth on the day, to score Amber Olive in the bottom of the third. Olive got a base hit in the first, but reached on a fielding error before she plated the run.
The Red Raiders evened the score at one apiece in the fourth and came back for another run in the fifth for a 2-1 lead over the Aggies. Kaaihue scored the Aggies tying run at the bat of Alyssa Ruiz' standing double to right center in the bottom half of the inning.
Both teams plated a run to keep the score knotted at 3-3 in the seventh and send the game into extra innings. The international tiebreaker rule put a runner at second as Texas Tech came up with an RBI single to center for a 4-3 lead. TTU scored the winning run off a double to left to bring in the runner at second.
NM State now looks at a week of rivalry games as the Aggies host the New Mexico Lobos for the second time this season on Feb. 19. After the second of the three-game series against the rivals to the north, the Aggies play two days of doubleheaders beginning on Saturday, Feb. 23 in El Paso Texas. NM State battles southern rival UTEP each day as well as South Dakota.


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The Antlers High School Business Professionals of America (BPA) members recently attended the 2013 BPA State Leadership Conference. Business Professionals of America members are provided an opportunity for the development of leadership skills, personal and professional growth, and career-related competencies. The state leadership conference is the highlight of the year and helps the more than 5,000 members across the state accomplish these objectives. Over 2,400 high school, middle school, and post secondary students attended the 2013 State Leadership Conference. Payton Gentry, an AHS senior, placed 2nd in the competition in Prepared Speech. This accomplishment qualifies her to compete at a national level in May in Orlando, Florida.


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President Obamas re-election victory is due to three factors.
First, roughly half the population now receives some kind of government assistance, be it welfare, public housing, food stamps, medicaid, etc.
(Im not including social security and medicare, since these programs were previously contributed to by the current recipients.) Those receiving freebies from the government would naturally be expected to vote for the hand that feeds them.
Secondly, Obama comes from that den of iniquity, the Chicago political machine, whose goal is to do whatever it takes to win. Instead of addressing issues, the Obama campaign used Chicago style tactics to attack irrelevant facets of Romneys exemplary life. While going to great lengths to hide personal documentation such as birth certificate, college transcripts, etc., Obama tried to make a big deal out of
Romneys tax returns. While Romney tried to take the high road and stick to the issues, Obama resorted to name calling and class warfare.
Unfortunately, Obama exemplifies many of the cultural attitudes of an ever increasing segment of our society which embraces personal greed over traditional American norms, present gratification over long term prosperity and moral relativism over traditional Judeo Christian values.
The end justifies the means.
The third factor is what I call the hereditary Democrats. My daddy was a Democrat, my granddaddy was a Democrat, and Im a Democrat.
Unfortunately, the Democratic Party has been stolen from these folks by those who have preempted it for their own purposes.
God bless America.
David J. Didimamoff
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Your little girl will have fun imitating her Mommy with this High Chair from KidKraft. This adorable chair has a crisp white lacquer finish with scalloped edges, and filigree cut out detail. Plus, with a pink and white rattle bar, foot rest, and a reversible mint/lavender pad, the high chair comfortably seats a 19" doll for breakfast, lunch or dinner. Because kid-safety is a priority, rubber stops between the tray table and chair protect little fingers from getting caught.
- Cute, girly details
- Rubber stops for safety
- Fits 19" dolls comfortably
- Dimensions: 12" x 12" x 22.25"H
- Ages: 3 & up
Gift wrap not available.Shipping Note: This item ships directly from the manufacturer within contiguous United States only. Cannot be shipped to AK/HI, PO boxes, US territories, or APO/FPO addresses.


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The Draper 50 x 70" Cinefold Portable Projection Screen with Standard Legs is the perfect choice for the businessman who travels consistently and who needs a rugged and reliable screen that sets up and collapses with ease. It is a folding-type screen that serves many purposes from point-of-purchase to corporate needs.
The Cinefold is easy to work with since it does not require any tools to construct. When not needed, it stores neatly in its own wheeled case that makes it easy to negotiate hallways, parking lots, even crowded airports. Moreover, the case serves as a more-than-convenient place to store the screen when not in use.
The system is built from durable 1" aluminum tubing. It is all color-coded and labeled so construction is simple. The scratch-resistant tubing is a handsome silver coated powder coat. The wheeled case is built from very rugged polyethylene that features two built-in molded handles. The lid handle is steel and has an ergonomic and comfortable rubber grip. The lid itself is tied with two firm and adjustable straps.
Fully assembled, the unit stands about 44" off the floor and can be adjusted in 6" increments. The joints (hinges) are all steel and cadmium plated. One of the best features of this screen is that the parts are all replaceable including the surface which is available for front or rear projection.
The Cinefold is available in a wide variety of sizes and screen formats so you can rest assured that you will be able to accommodate any projection requirement.
Note: If you need a larger size projection screen, check out Draper's Truss-Style Cinefold Screen
- Versatile and ruggedly constructed
- Projection screen surface snaps onto frame
- Also available with Anti-sway stabilizers for extra reinforcement against side-to-side movement
- Also available with Screen Connection Clamps and Screen Connection Strips for multi-screen setup
- No tools required
- Comes with rugged wheeled carry case
- Color-coded pieces snap together
- Damaged pieces can be easily replaced since the system has standardized parts
- Frame is adjustable in 6" (15cm) increments


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Cottage Garage Guesthouse
Increase square footage by turning a garage into a guesthouse and studio.
In a three-week-long painting spree, the homeowner painted the entire space white (she even painted the floor) to transform this once-dingy building into a welcoming, functional space. An antique rope-bed with a tufted mattress serves as a makeshift sofa during the day. A pair of Bergere-style chairs are an elegant touch.
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|The most helpful favorable review
|The most helpful critical review
1 of 1 people found the following review helpful:
By Mike from USA on 2007-12-26 21:19:03Things I liked:these airgun pellets are great mid weight shooters, in my gun they shoot one hole groups all day long at thrity yds.
Things I would have changed:they could put foam in the tins to protect the skirts from deforming.
What others should know:you get your moneys worth with these pellets
0 of 0 people found the following review helpful:
By Karen from USA on 2013-10-16 21:36:14Things I liked:I didn't really didn't like the way they shot. :(
Things I would have changed:i would like to see them get to about 9.5 to 10 grains.
What others should know:think twice about buying these pellets>
CheckoutSubtotal (USD):
does not include shipping and tax


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This item ships within one business day.
$4.99 flat rate shipping. See other shipping options.
Bring your "A" game to the next Jets extravaganza when you don the slim-fit Conversion jacket from Nike. This jacket boasts a screen print New York logo on the left chest, team-colored accents on the collar and cuffs, thumb holes at the cuffs and an Olympic collar. It also features Nike's Dri-FIT technology which pulls away sweat to keep you dry and comfortable while you're going crazy for the Jets. New York fanaticism is not for the weak of heart – show that you've got the strongest team spirit around in this comfy jacket!
- Contrast-colored lining and details
- Mock-neck collar
Reviewed by 1 customer
- Great Feel And Fit
Best Uses
Comments about Nike New York Jets Womens Conversion Half Zip Performance Jacket - Black:
Great pull over. Great fit!
Special event items are produced by manufacturers only after the outcome of a game or event. These are advanced sale items and will ship immediately after they are received in our warehouse.
Manufacturer direct items are shipped directly from the manufacturer. These items are not available for international or expedited shipping.
Customized items can be personalized with options such as your name, your favorite number, and/or designs. Some options may be limited by league rules.


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Athletics Launches New HilbertHawks.com Website
- Release Date:
- September 12, 2013
- Contact:
- The Office of Sports Information
- (716) 649-7900 ext. 333
Thursday, September 12, 2013
Contact: Matt Heidt (email@example.com or 716.926.8792)
HAMBURG, N.Y. – Hilbert College Athletics, in partnership with SIDEARM Sports, announced Thursday the launch of www.HilbertHawks.com, the newly designed website provides a variety of new, interactive, and fan-friendly features.
"Hilbert College is pleased to announce the launch of our new Hawks' Athletics website," Hilbert Director of Athletics John Czarnecki said. "The new format provides a dynamic platform to better showcase the College's 13 athletic programs and our student-athletes. This website is a testament to the College's commitment to its community of alumni, sponsors, donors, students, parents, and fans of the Hilbert Hawks."
The all-new HilbertHawks.com features an updated look and layout that is consistent with college athletics websites. The new look includes larger images and will continue to provide all of the sports schedules and rosters, game previews and recaps, statistics, player and coach bios, and historical information on Hawk athletics as in the past. In addition, fans of Hilbert Athletics will find quick access to the Hawks' social media hubs, statistics, schedules, more general information pages, photo galleries, scoreboards, and upcoming calendar of events. The new website will also feature mobile capabilities to access Hilbert Hawks' information on-the-go.
SIDEARM Sports provides the software and technology that powers the websites, live stats, and video streaming for over 600 colleges, universities and high schools across North America.
SIDEARM Sports provides the software and technology that powers the websites, live stats, and video streaming for over 600 colleges, universities and high schools across North America.
Hilbert College, located in suburban Hamburg, N.Y., south of Buffalo, is a private four-year college founded in 1957 in the Catholic Franciscan tradition. With nearly 1,100 students, Hilbert is a dynamic Western New York college that offers career-focused majors, including one of the top criminal justice programs in the region, and more than 50 minors and concentrations. The college's engaging, student-centered campus community offers numerous leadership, internship, and service learning opportunities from which students launch successful careers while making positive changes in their communities. The Hilbert Blueprint promotes a well-rounded student experience over four years – starting with the Foundations Seminar in the freshman year, followed by Sophomore Service, Junior Symposium, and culminating with the Senior Capstone. Hilbert has expanded its academic offerings with the college's first graduate programs and new Accelerated Degree Programs geared to adult learners.
Upcoming Events
- First Year Student Orientation
- Aug 14, 2015
- Summer Session A2 Ends
- Aug 21, 2015
- First Year Student Orientation
- Aug 28, 2015


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PRICE PROMISE |TILDA CRAFTS including Tilda Kits! |SPECIAL OFFERS | FREE UK DELIVERY FOR ORDERS OVER £30|CRAFT BOOKS |SALE |
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Clear step-by-step photographs and instructions guide you through all the skills you will need to make beautiful afghans and throws, from choosing yarns and basic knitting and crochet stitches to Fair Isle and intarsia techniques, making and piecing blocks and strips, and creating delicate openwork fabrics. Learn how to read patterns and adapt cross-stitch graphs, or chart your own unique designs; use multiple stitch techniques to create bobbles, popcorns, and cables; create stunning effects by combining colour, pattern, and texture; add the finishing touch with fringes, borders, tassels, beads, and embroidery. Includes an inspirational gallery of designs and motifs with complete stitching instructions, cross-referenced to the techniques within the book.
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Conference sows entrepreneurial seeds for growthBy Bruce Edwards
STAFF WRITER | March 25,2013CASTLETON - Lawrence Miller knows something about entrepreneurship. Before his current job as secretary of the Agency of Commerce and Community Development, Miller started Otter Creek Brewing.
But getting to the point where the Middlebury brewery could be considered a success had its challenges, Miller told the 200 attendees at an all-day business conference at Castleton State College on Monday.
Miller was one of a number of speakers and workshops that focused on practices to help new businesses and budding entrepreneurs.
Rutland business leaders started off the Grow Your Business Over-Easy seminar with a pitch on why the city and the area is an ideal place to do business, including the city's pro-business attitude, workforce and transportation infrastructure.
They pointed to a series of recent positive developments anchored by Green Mountain Power's new Energy Innovation Center in the heart of the downtown.
Brennan Duffy, executive director of the Rutland Redevelopment Authority, gave a short Power Point presentation ticking off a list of what the city has to offer.
"Strategic location, lower cost real estate, a strong workforce, robust infrastructure, business friendly environment and a great quality of life," Duffy said
He said there are financial incentives available including commercial and industrial tax stabilization.
In terms of job growth, Duffy said while the county has lost jobs in the last decade the city has experienced 4 percent job growth.
"That's a positive sign for the city," he said.
In discussing the Vermont economy, Miller said "income improvement" has not kept pace with the cost of living. "That needs to change," he said. "We need better wages, we need better income, we need it across the spectrum."
Miller said the problem is that while companies are more productive, those companies are doing it with fewer workers.
"So what do we need, we need more firms," he said. "How do we get more firms, we need more entrepreneurs and that's what a day like this is all about."
For the complete story, see Tuesday's Rutland Herald.MORE IN This Just InThe family of a Connecticut man who was killed in a car accident on Route 4 last Friday night is... Full StoryAssociated Press Full StoryIt seems like I just started to warm up from last winter and I see back-to-school displays. Full Story
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- RICHARD'S POOR ALMANACK: On this day 1739, 'Richard Palmer' identified in prison at York Castle as the notorious outlaw DICK TURPIN; IN 1836, Battle of the Alamo begins near San Antonio de Bexar, Texas; 1896, the Tootsie Roll invented by LEO HIRSCHFELD.
- RICHARD'S POOR ALMANACK: On this day in 1472, Orkney, Shetland islands put up as collateral by Norway to Scotland in lieu of dowry for MARGARET OF DENMARK on her marriage with JAMES III, king of Scotland; 1962, JOHN GLENN first American to orbit Earth.
- TOMORROW'S HEADLINES TODAY: City mayoral candidates debate campaign issues; Hartford, Conn., woman still missing; Neal Goswami reports attempts to legislate suicide; local woman loses 100 pounds through TOPS program.
- RICHARD'S POOR ALMANACK: On this day in 1878, JOHN TUNSTALL murdered near Lincoln, New Mexico, by the outlaw JESSE EVANS; in 1930, ELM FARM OLLIE first cow to fly in aircraft, first to be milked airborne; 1955, nuke test WASP; '79, snow in Sahara.
- TOMORROW'S HEADLINES TODAY: Rutland Herald News Editor Alan J. Keays and staff writer Gordon Dritschilo discuss stories planned for the February 18, 2015, edition of the newspaper: Winter budgets maxed, legal marijuana, Springfield bank job, USPS slowdown
- RICHARD'S POOR ALMANACK: On this day in 1249 AD, ANDRE of LONGJUMEAU is dispatched by LOUIS IX of France to meet the KHAGAN, ruler of the Mongol Empire; in 1804, during 1st Barbary War, STEPHEN DECATUR scuttles the pirate-held USS Philadelphia in Tripoli.