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Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
It's funny how the uninformed will offer an opinion based on what the media tells them,instead of doing due diligance and actually investigating the subject.
And yes...I am actually an expert in the field,having testified in a court of law on hundreds of occasions,on behalf of the NYPD on the subject of firearns and ballistics,having been deemed an expert in the field by the courts,because of training an experience.
Maybe some actual...... factual ,research should be done here,so an informed opinion can be made reguarding the subject.That would encompass......anti.....as well as pro gun stats.
This isn't a one way street...not by a long shot(pun intended),so lets not go off half cocked(pun intended).
If you don't like guns...that's just fine..........but if you do...responsibly......that's fine too.
Steve B
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
In any situation where there is a difference of opinion, mutual respect is key.
www.leanneislearningtodrum.com (a blog about drumming, from a beginner's point of view)
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Just jump into the middle of a crowd and swing like a whirling dervish ... I'm not saying it would be easy but nothing truly worthwhile in this life comes without effort and sacrifice...
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Gangsters found themselves in a pickle - outgunned and potentially out of work, they went to the only source that could fix the problem: J. Edgar Hoover! Being somewhat of a gangster himself, he spearheaded the NFA of 1934 and VOILA!, the gangsters were back in business!
Today, it's no different. Criminals ignore the laws and put us responsible folks in jeopardy. Government wants to make it so I cannot protect my family and property. Shouldn't I be legally allowed to possess the same firepower as my enemy as long as I don't endanger my neighbor?
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
With our current world problems with overpopulation maybe everyone should be issued with a machine gun?
Weird that so many Americans seem so intent on waging war on each other, pretty well handing world leadership to China on a silver platter.
All great civilisations eventually self destruct ... it's a damn shame but you guys have to destroy yourselves in your own way. Try not to take us Aussies down with you if you can help it ...
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
That's only fair, right? I mean, that particular owner had "rights" to defend her home with military style weapons.....and was "responsible" in exercising those rights......stored her military style 30 round clip asault weapon responsibly, so that she was never gonna endanger her neighbour. The fact that no-one stopped to consider the proximity of the weapon to an idiot son, is rather an annoying oversight though.
Still, as long as someone's legal right to live doesn't infringe on your legal right to wave assault weapons around, I think it's alright too.
*For the record, I am not "anti gun". I am just pro common sense and as such would like to throw a different persepective on your argument. I know it's impossible to account for all the "what if's".......but nonetheless, they've gotta be worth at least some consideration and discussion, no?*
Last edited by Pocket-full-of-gold; 10-10-2013 at 12:27 AM.
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
#1 Gun
#2 Person with mental condition (in this case 2 - man with problems, mom in denial, doesn't recognize symptoms, and doesn't act accordingly)
#3 Soft target - school grounds don't allow guns.
Interesting, though (not responding specifically), I've used guns for a major portion of my adult life in my prior profession, I've had guns since I was 19, I've had 5 children living at my house, oldest 3 are gone - none of my kids killed anyone with them (to my knowledge).
How on Earth is this possible? Why haven't they killed hundreds of people? Some of my kids could even teach some here what sight picture is, and how to squeeeeeeze the trigger, not pull.
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
My guardian angel protects me. I have nothing to fear but fear itself. Now if the lights go out and there is mass hysteria, I'll have to brush up on my whittling and slingshot skills.
5A Sticks--Coated Heads--Acoustic Drums--Cast Bronze Cymbals--Heavy-Duty Hardware
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
My kids (3 boys) are all grown and ready to commit atrocities of their own. I can't defend their actions, but if I've a gun, I may be able to stop them!?!
I really wish that firearms weren't necessary, but I firmly believe that only I can account for my own future. I don't think that my government can provide my health care, provide for my retirement or secure my personal protection. The government has no idea how I want to live my elder-years and can only be re-active (not pro-active) in making my household safe.
That being said, only I can ensure my (and my family's) ultimate future - to the best of my ability.
I'm not trying to convert anyone, and apologize in advance for any misconceptions of my type-written word. It'd be best if we could discuss my point of view face-to-face over a beer, but this will have to do for now. In short, I'd like to retain responsibility over as many facets of my life as possible - so that when, at the end of my life, I won't have cause to question culpability.
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
I'm surrounding my house with land-mines, motion detectors, flame-throwers, and laser sighted bazookas. My daughter will be safe then from all of the sickos here in New Jersey.
Either you have a purpose behind your expression... or you don't.
JoJo Mayer
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
US citizens waging war amongst themselves? We did that back in the 1860's and the North won. Now-a-days, civil war in the States is mostly just drug dealers.
World leadership to China? The US government sold that title back in the Clinton era and it's only getting worse with our current national debt. I'm not too happy about it either. Personal responsibility extends from individuals to countries too, I think.
Gun ownership doesn't necessarily equal self destruction. I've got 54 years of experience, though tomorrow is another day. In 2011, Australia was 4th from the top of the list of US foreign military sales dollars - might want to contact your elected officials! If it was up to me, there wouldn't be foreign military sales, but I'm just a citizen, so what do I know.
I love ya, Grea. I really wish we could continue this debate over a beer. Doubtful there would be any converts, but at least you'd better understand my point of view, and vice-versa, too! I'm sure you'd agree that most gun advocates aren't complete homicidal idiots - though I'll agree there are some exceptions. In the USA, it's estimated that the gun ownership rate is 89 per 100 souls with about 31,000 annual firearm related fatalities. That's a rate of about 0.01%. Automobile owners in the US, as a group, can't claim that level of safety.
I'm not trying to poo-poo the loss of a single soul - even one fatality is too many, but if you want to compare apples to apples...
Enjoy your vacation in the Motherland - give my best to the DW sisters and brothers!
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Sorry, Jeff - couldn't help it. I advocate a high level of personal responsibility - with that also goes a high level of personal protection. Benjamin Franklin said, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." I guess that makes me a Libertarian, though I'm not one for labels.
While I don't think there's a bogeyman behind every tree, I should be prepared to defend myself against the worst typical threat to me and my home. Not to denigrate the local police force, but in most cases, they can only respond after a crime is committed.
You buy health insurance in case of a medical catastrophe, homeowner's insurance in case of a total dwelling loss, auto insurance against a vehicle loss, etc. Why are gun owners vilified for being pro-active? I'd posit the theory that teen-agers behind the wheel of a car are many times more likely to take a life than the average US gun owner. Yet, we call it a right of passage and willingly hand over the car keys.
Remember that a firearm is a tool - no more or no less. It's only dangerous when in the wrong hands. But so are hammers, screwdrivers, ball-bats, pressure cookers, fertilizer, etc. The world really is a safe place - the folks with no respect for human life are and always will be the exception to the rule. Until we can fix them, I'd rather not rely on someone else for my own protection.
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
We're talking about guns that were designed to kill people. It's not a side effect of their use, it's a direct consequence. It's what they do. Sure, people die in car crashes, but you'll never hear somebody saying "Only take the car out if you're prepared to kill somebody with it". On top of that, Bloomber estimates that gun deaths will outnumber car crash deaths by 2015. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...s-by-2015.html in case anyone cares)
Over in the health care discussion we have people seeing conspiracy theories behind vaccinations, big pharma and your local GP. And yet nobody sees anything odd in the NRA being a vocal opponent of gun control*...when the NRA seems to be funded (according to a quick bit of google) to the tune of 50% of its revenue.
* Gun control. Not disarmament. Just some crazy ideas, like limiting access to assault rifles, background checks and just trying to make sure that guns aren't sold to people who shouldn't have guns.
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
With horns and a full rhythm section, the drums always looked like the best seat in the house.-Helm
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
The Sandy Hook killer's mom apparently didn't control her firearm or her insane son. I wish it were different. If a firearm wasn't available, would he have used a car? A bomb? In the USA, the largest loss of life from terrorist action is the New York Twin Tower/airplane incident. Next worse loss of life prior to that, was the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma by Timothy McVeigh in 1995. Prior to that was the bombing of a school in Bath, Michigan in 1927. RESPONSIBLE firearm owners aren't the problem.
Rights to defend my home? If I was your neighbor, and you could trust me with a knife, would you not trust me with a pistol? If you could trust me with a pistol, would you not trust me with an assault rifle? If you would trust me with an assault rifle, would you not trust me with a machine gun? If you'd trust me with a machine gun, would you not trust me with a fougasse? What about a nuke? Honestly, there has to be limit. I'd like to think that if my choice of personal protection didn't encroach on your safety (or maybe enhanced it!) you'd not quibble.
I'm sure most folks, like you, aren't "anti-gun" and I appreciate that - that's why intelligent dialog can only make things better for all of us. If you were my neighbor, would it be OK if I had a dog? How about a dog that barks a lot? Or a pit bull terrier? Maybe we should meet at the fence and talk about it!
Off to bed for now, John
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Smoke, Clinton left office with the US enjoying a record surplus. GWB left office with the largest debt ever seen in history. I fail to see how you lost your power during the Clinton era.
No, you guys are definitely at war with yourselves and not only destroying your nation's proud legacy with mindless hatred and violence against each other but making your allies vulnerable as well.
Bloody tragic to watch the nation that gifted us jazz and rock n roll drag itself down the gurgler with blind self destructiveness. I can't say I'm pleased that you guys are dying to the tune of 30000 a year thanks to your sick relationship with guns. Nor that we are so influenced by your nation's sad illness.
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Ya, well Grea, America is a super power and power leads to corruption. Corruption like starting a war by misleading the American public. Let me just say that my heart goes out to these soldiers that have to do the dirty work, but I have never supported these wars or that BS Clinton pulled in Croatia. I have never voted Republican ever in any election. So, ya, I will fight these Republican d*bags every step of the way. For the record, I am not a Democrat either. The only Democratic presidential candidate I ever voted for was Kerry in '04, and that was in a desperate attempt to get Bush out of there. I didn't vote for Obama either. I quit voting. There is no choice anymore...obviously. Just a bunch of baboons. We, as a nation, are getting dumber too, and too many dumb people own guns. End of story.
5A Sticks--Coated Heads--Acoustic Drums--Cast Bronze Cymbals--Heavy-Duty Hardware
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Rest assured, Bon, Aussies ain't getting any smarter either!
Seems that the young uns are pretty bright but the oldies are getting dumber in their fears and desperate conservatism, hoping to somehow wind back the clock to a time when they felt comfortable.
As for the vote, the corporations that rule the world (including munitions companies) still allow politicians to play with some social policy to give the sweet illusion of democracy, as long as it doesn't interfere with their profits.
We can debate till the cows come home but these powerbrokers will make all the decisions and brainwash the little people with their media lies and propaganda. And we don't even realise how our minds are twisted by them. After retiring I did some serious thinking and was astonished at some of the superstitions I never questioned. No doubt there's more things I've taken for granted still to be uncovered ...
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
You, sir, are screwed.
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
(If ever there was a thread crying out for improvement by even further derailment it's this one!)
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
I would just draw your attention to the fact that in the UK we have had a gun ban for over half a century. Firearms were invented in this country several hundred years ago but for most people the expense made it impossible to own one. We had people robbing stagecoaches long before Hollywood thought of that idea but although they carried guns the response of the stagecoach companies was to catch the robbers not turn the stagecoaches into a fortress.
In the early part of the 20th C no licence was required for weapons. We did have a few firearm related incidents and the perps were hanged for it but on the whole the population didn't carry guns as a matter of course. Landowners usually had shotguns and rifles for vermin disposal purposes. It has never actually been legal in this country to own a weapon for self-defence!
We had a huge civil disturbance in the 1920's called a General Strike. At that time it looked to the authorities as if there was going to be general anarchy as well and so they compiled a register of all those holding weapons of any description who could be conscripted into some kind of civil defence force. This was done by the cops and of course having compiled the register they then went a step further and introduced a licencing scheme. This country has as many control freaks as anywhere else!
But the gun licencing scheme was not very strict, you could apply at a Post Office for a gun licence and that was all that was required. Gradually the licence requirements have been tightened up over the years until right now when it is difficult to get a licence at all. The primary requirement is that you have to have a good reason for having one. Self defence is NOT a good reason in this country. It has to be either for vermin disposal or sporting use.
Weapons of war are forbidden. Nobody in the UK legally owns an AR16 but they might well have a collection of rifles. Pistols are now forbidden. The security requirements are serious.
A friend with a gun collection has had to build an armoured room in his house, a burglar alarm, security lights, he's registered with the police and has to renew the license every 4 years.
Every weapon he has is recorded on the licence and if he buys or sells anything that also requires a change to the licence. It costs a fee every single time.
Even just owning a shogun now requires a detailed application to the cops, a declaration of sanity from the doctor and a character reference from a reputable person. There are other rules about the amount of ammo you can have and the security of the home. You MUST have a metal security cabinet and the guns must be kept in it. Break any of those rules and your license is revoked.
We DO get the occasional nut running around with a weapon and our cops frequently carry MP5's and pistols. They have shot quite a few guys over the years. Unfortunately they have shot a number of innocent people too. But we don't have massacres like Columbine etc. We did have a guy running around shooting small children at a school in Dunblane. As a result of that pistols are banned in the this country. If you see a guy with a pistol, it's illegal.
Having said that I have been told that it is not hard to get your hands on illegal weapons in this country, if you really try. If you ask the right people and come up with money then it is definitely possible. But if you get caught then you definitely get a stretch.
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Texting while walking has killed people. Are we going to regulate cell phones?
Like was mentioned earlier (and ties into the OP), things that seem strange, are often normal to others.
We cannot discuss different region's history as an apples to apples comparison, as different socioeconomic classes, government regulations, entitlements, history, and ethics, etc... that all lead to our society's behavior. A gun is simply a tool, just like a cigarette, drumstick, cell phone, car, or that new Sabian AAX Air Splash (that I like so much). Simply because I purchase a cymbal, does not make me a great drummer. But it can enable me to sound like one.
Last edited by JasperGTR; 10-11-2013 at 12:15 PM.
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
As a smoker, I fail to see how a cigarette is a tool. It serves only one functional purpose and that is simply to be ignited and inhaled. The act of inhaling cigarette smoke does not produce anything of meaningful value.
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Wow. Didn't read past the first few posts, so I'm probably late to the discussion here, but man... If anyone suddenly pulled out a gun at a band rehearsal (or gig or whatever), I would be out of that band within five minutes.
Goes for any social setting really. If it was at a party, I would most likely never set foot in that house again. Nothing makes me feel more unsafe than civilians carrying guns (I don't like the idea of armed police either, but I realise it's necessary in some situations).
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
A cigarette is a tool, indeed. And it serves a purpose. If it didn't, people wouldn't smoke. Nicotine is a drug, and like any drug - it alters normal functions. Some people prefer these alterations, and therefore use the tool to alter it to a certain state. Some drugs are helpful, some are less helpful. There are ALWAYS side effects - I think that was my point. My hammer can be used to fasten a board to a wall. It can also be used to bludgeon my kids to death in their sleep (and as they age, they can do the same to me). Why am I (they) not doing it?
Without straying - I was just stating that their are many tools that can cause destruction, the manner in which we use them (to bash a cymbal or play a cymbal) is determined by a multitude of reasons (nature vs nurture/society vs individual/parenting/experience/preference/etc...).
By the way - I'm pro-hammer. And pro-cigarette. As much as I can't stand the effects, the smell, the cost, the taxing, manipulation, time wasted, health insurance cost increases, political impacts, danger (ever watch a person smoke while driving? - completely oblivious that they swerve as often as they do, not always looking ahead), etc..., but I like that there is a choice to do so (so long as it doesn't impact my will not to).
Live free or die. (It's even on the license plate in NH - yes, I know it is referring to taxes, etc..., and not lawlessness).
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
It's a tool to ingest a drug. Absolutely. In this particular instance, the drug has no properties that are productive. It has no medical use. If a tool is worthless, it stops being a tool - that is my point.
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
I've known a few "tools" in my day, though I won't name names. Most of them have been and continue to be worthless - and yes, they are still "tools."
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
But think about that, statistically, your personal future is more limited in a country or culture that nurtures sales and/or use of guns. It just is. Gun related violence per capita sort of numbers. What is out there shows they are much higher in countries that openly sell them, black market or not. The numbers don't lie.
Just curious have you ever had to sue your gun in defence?
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
Kosovo in '99..................Air campaign with limited ground combat.............then followed by "peacekeeping" mission again
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
And I'm afraid the bigger tools are the ones buying and smoking the cigarettes.
There's no noble purpose of American freedom behind the fact that you can still buy a pack of cigarettes; it's because the tobacco companies (and insurance companies) have that kind of leverage in Washington.
Call me J
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
We accept that as reasonable because a car is in the category of Tools That Can Kill Innocent People Very Easily With A Tiny Screw Up. Also, cars are in the category of Tools That Are Very Valuable And Are Subject To Being Stolen And Used In Crimes. Screwdrivers, by comparison, have no regulation because they are in the category of Tools That Have Minimal Risk Of Death And Injury To Others. Note the word "Minimal."
Re: Anyone ever pull a gun at practice?
And on that note boys and girls the bring a gun to band practice debate has come to an end. Thank you for your participation. When we stray from the original idea on these we tend to get a little political. and you know we don't want that. thanks.
Retirement...August 21, 2015
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Mrs. Ridlehoover was born in McCormick on May 2, 1926, had lived in Gray since 1966, and was the daughter of the late Robert Lee McKinney and Hattie Duncan McKinney. After completing her education, she worked for 35 years with Bell South Communications. Mrs. Ridlehoover was a member of the Southern Bell Telephone Pioneers, as well as First Baptist Church of Gray, where she was also a member of the TEL/Lois Glawson Sunday school class. She was preceded in death by her husband, Carl Milton Ridlehoover.
Mrs. Ridlehoover is survived by her son and daughter-in-law, Steve and Sonja Ridlehoover; daughter and son-in-law, Sandra and Darrell Richardson; and by her grandchildren and spouse, Rex and Laura Leigh Richardson and Matthew Richardson.
In lieu of flowers, the family requests that memorial contributions be made to First Baptist Church of Gray, P.O. Box 429, Gray, GA 31032 or to Stone Brooke Suites Activities Fund, 114 Stone Brooke Drive, Gray, GA 31032.
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Great shops and restaurants. Fun to look at the great cars parked along the streets.


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Beard: Writer at odds with 'Gotham' TV series use of characterWritten by Jim Beard | | firstname.lastname@example.com
Though it doesn't debut until the fall, the new Batman-related Fox TV series "Gotham" is already mired in controversy over one of its characters.
Veteran comic writer and novelist Alan Brennert, in a July 7 Facebook manifesto of sorts, claims DC Comics and its parent company Warner Bros. refuse to hear his request for equity in a character he co-created for a 1981 Batman story, Barbara Kean, the then-fiancée of the future-Commissioner James Gordon.
Brennert said he was told by a DC representative that the character was "derivative" of the existing Barbara Gordon character – Batgirl – and therefore ineligible for equity royalties. When he cited an example of other creators' receipt of payment for appearances of their own "derivative" characters in filmed works, he claims the lines of communications with DC went silent and remain so.
It's also important to note the writer states he's "not in this for the money, but the principle," as payments for such use can be less than $45 dollars per usage.
In an exclusive interview with Toledo Free Press, Brennert said DC's growth over the past few years is behind the treatment he received.
"DC Comics is now DC Entertainment," he said. "Since the move from New York to Burbank, and the departure of [former DC president] Paul Levitz, they have become much more vertically integrated with Warner Brothers; that's who's calling the shots now. And having worked in Hollywood for 36 years, I can assure you that all the protections I enjoy as a screenwriter — residuals, pension and health, recurring character payments — the studios would take away in a minute if it weren't for the creative guilds. Comic books aren't unionized, so studios like Warners can take away all these bothersome payments to writers and artists, and they're starting to do it already with redefinitions of 'net revenue' and the like."
Brennert's exposure of the practice went viral within hours of his posting, and while he's pleased that people find the event of importance, he remains both pragmatic about the original impetus behind Barbara Kean's creation in 1981 and proud of her subsequent expanded role in the mythos by other writers.
"She appeared in one panel," he said. "No one had ever shown the mother (or in this case, mother-to-be) of Barbara (Batgirl) Gordon and I thought it would be a nice wink at the reader to show that Babs obviously got her beauty, brains and even name from her mother. Comics historian John Wells says that there were two appearances of a (Golden Age) Mrs. Gordon in 1951, and after my story she's appeared '52 times to date since.' Plus DC retroactively renamed the Golden Age version 'Barbara' only six months after my story came out. So that's very flattering, it's gratifying to know I came up with a character that has become a part of Batman continuity, and in more than one medium."
In all, Brennert hopes that the situation may yet be resolved and insists it doesn't sour him to creating characters for corporations in the future.
"I wrote a handful of comics stories out of love for the characters, but I never made it a livelihood, and for pretty much this reason," he said. "I prefer to work in TV and film, where I have contractual protections, and novels, where I own my own characters. But not all comics publishers offer the same onerous terms as DC and Marvel, so who knows? Never say never."
Tags: Alan Brennert, Barbara Gordon, Barbara Kean, Batgirl, Batman, controversy, DC Comics, FOX-TV, Gotham, James Gordon, Jim Beard, John Wells, Paul Levitz, Warner Bros.


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"Hair metal" survivors L.A. Guns are in Bend tonight for a show at the Domino Room. I spoke with drummer Steve Riley about the key to the band's longevity.
"Bands die when they get on a big tour … and then they have to come back and go out and do clubs. There are a lot of bands that won't do that," Riley said. "We never really cared. We just wanted to play and we have no problem bouncing from a Whitesnake show to a club show on our own and then back to a Scorpions show and then back to a club on our own.
"You've got to dig in and you've got to want to play. You can't believe your own bulls—," he said. "Phil and myself, we always just wanted to be working musicians where we go out and play a full set of our own original material, and that's what we do. If it's in a club, who cares? And if it's with Whitesnake or Cinderella in a big arena, that's great too. As long as we're playing, we're cool."
Riley was a super nice, totally humble guy, and I enjoyed chatting with him. I hope you'll read the whole story, which you can find by clicking here.
On St. Patrick's Day, I went and caught a couple of excellent pop-rock bands — The Mother HIps and The Parson Red Heads — at McMenamins in Bend. Here's part of my review, from today's Feedback column:
(The Hips) came to town to play a ton of songs, kicking things off with the jagged "Third Floor Story" and "Esmerelda," an affable tune that would fit in nicely on classic-rock radio playlists.
The thing is, the same can be said of most of the songs in the Hips' set. "Do It On the Strings." "Toughie." "Later Days." "Smoke." All are well-written, with sweet choruses and swaggering guitar riffs. But when you string 'em together one after another, it really highlights where the Hips' range begins and ends. And it's not exactly a wide swath, not that it matters much to the couple hundred devout fans who showed up for the show, pumped their fists and mouthed every word.
There were peaks, of course. I loved the ragged chug of "Time-Sick Son of a Grizzly Bear," the astral reverb and ascendant chorus of "Magazine," and the wonderful "White Falcon Fuzz," an easygoing rocker than sounds imported straight from your dad's record player, circa 1975.
Do me a favor and click here to read the rest of it.
Elsewhere in this week's music section: Arturo Sandoval brings jazz to the Tower Theatre, and Tom Grant does the same at The Oxford hotel, folk singer Danny Schmidt plays two shows, local MC Mindscape and Floater frontman Robert Wynia make for a busy weekend at Silver Moon, The Ascetic Junkies return to town, The Dirty Words celebrate their new album, and Tuck and Roll headlines a punk show at MadHappy.


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We unlock value for our customers by providing technology to manage safety, security and sustainability resulting in increased efficiency, performance and protection of people, assets and reputations. We use our expertise to evolve our technology platform maintaining superior quality for customers across multiple industries. We work with energy, passion and commitment for our customers, their people and their reputations.
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"When I first started looking at software suppliers, I did a lot of research on the market and found myself looking at the Rivo system. I must say that it was the best choice. I purchased a few modules of the system to start off with and am planning to expand the system in the future. The Rivo team have worked with me for approximately two months to modify the system to meet my exact requirements. Any changes to the existing layout, reporting or any other aspect was done quickly and efficiently and I now have a system designed to fit with my organization and it is exactly what I needed. You can't go wrong with Rivo."
"We are extremely pleased with both the product and service provided by the Rivo team. Our objective was to consolidate all of our H&S documentation and processes in one place and to control H&S activities from Head Office, whilst still allowing remote locations access. The system has exceeded our expectations, as proven by a recent evaluation which gave 100% satisfaction score in terms of ease of use by approximately 50 end users. At a senior level, Rivo has provided us with an excellent overview of H&S activity throughout the company and useful report writing facilities. Throughout the rest of the business, it has encouraged employees to take more responsibility for Health & Safety at their individual levels, assisting them in prioritising and managing required actions."
"One of the major benefits of the Rivo system is the speed with which we can identify accident, incident and near miss trends. This means we are able to plan for our resources in order to pinpoint those areas where we can maximise improvement."
"Rivo is an effective tool that helps us to comply with an ever increasing number of Health & Safety regulations. Easy to install and simple to use, it helps me achieve Health & Safety compliance and protect our employees' safety at work. It has been tailored to meet our specific needs and we are very pleased with the results."


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YAY, looking forward to it!!
Apps & Accessories Live premieres tonight, 9pm ET!
iPad Live has merged Transformers-style with iPhone Live and our newer, better, badasser all news, all how-tos iPhone and iPad Live combined podcast can now be found on Wednesday nights at 9pm ET. But what to do with our traditional Sunday slot then? Why an all-new, all awesome podcast devoted to the latest and greatest apps and accessories! So join us tonight for the debut episode of Apps & Accessories Live!
(And yes, ZEN and TECH will still be following on at 10pm!)
Time: 9pm ET, 6pm PT, 2am GMT.
If you have any questions or topics you'd like us to discuss, just leave them in the comments then come be part of the show!
Want to watch via iPhone or iPad? Grab the Ustream app and search for "mobilenations"!
Have something to say about this story? Leave a comment! Need help with something else? Ask in our forums!
Reader comments
Apps & Accessories Live premieres tonight, 9pm ET!
This was my first view with you all. great stuff. Looking forward to more in the future.
Rene, Georgia, all.... Thanks for the new podcast.. Good start.
You guys did mention one thing about a review that Ashley did on a window pane that basically turned into a 'touch display'.. Rene mentioned that it had benn viewed a couple of million times, but as hard as i look, I can't find it on your Imore.com site .... Could you post the URL here again ??
Thanks..... W


text: Paste, plum, pear, processing, saladette are all names for the same tomato type. The are typically meatier and less juicy than other types, and are the best choice for canning, sauces, and salsa. With less juice, sauce-making time is half that of salad types and, with higher soluble solids and viscosity, flavor is doubled. Also the best type for fresh cooking.


text:
Save $1,400 Over 1-5 Case Pricing
Costco Copy Paper, Letter, 92-Bright, 200 Case/5 Pallet Pricing
Min/Max Order Quantity: 200 cases
Item #712781
Minimum/Maximum order Quantity: 200
Delivery Requirement:
- Must have a loading dock that can accommodate a 53' swing door trailer
- Must have the capability to unload pallets with an estimated weight of 2,000 pounds or more
- Must have the proper equipment to unload all product and be able to complete within a 2 hour time period
- Delivery drivers will not be able to assist with the unloading process.
- The cut off for order processing would be 3:00 pm EST daily.
- Lead-time on delivery is 12 to 15 days for 5 pallets less than truckload orders.
- Copy Paper
- 92 GE brightness rating
- White
- 8-1/2" x 11"
- 20 lb
- 500 Sheets per ream
- 10 Reams
- 40 Cases
- 5 Pallets
- Acid-free
- Excellent for everyday general business copying and printing
- For use in copiers, laser printers, and fax machines
- Made in USA
- SFI chain of custody certified
Brand: Costco
Brightness: 92
Color: White
Length: 11 in.
Paper Weight: 20 lb.
Width: 8.5 in.
Standard shipping via common carrier meeting the following requirements is included in quoted price:
• Must have a loading dock that can accommodate a 48' - 53' swing door trailer
• Must have the capability to unload pallets with an estimated weight of 2,000 pounds or more
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|3.1 lbs.
|Accessories Included:
|Adapter Type:
|Cord Length:
|16 ft.
|11,000 - 20,000
|Oscillations Angle:
|3.2 Degrees
|Power Consumption:
|250 Watts
|Power Type:
|Sanding Pad Size:
|3-1/8 in.
Reviewed by 3 customers
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Best Uses
Comments about MultiMaster Start Q Basic Oscillating Tool Kit with FREE 1-3/8 in. Long-Life E-Cut Blade:
It has become my right had with all my projects. I do not know what I would do without it...
Best Uses
Comments about MultiMaster Start Q Basic Oscillating Tool Kit with FREE 1-3/8 in. Long-Life E-Cut Blade:
This is the best made and most durable oscillating tool on the market . . . . nothing else comes close. I've used both the PC and Bosch (cordless) versions recently and, even though they're okay for most general use around the house, they pale in comparison to the Fein.
I have a significant moral objection to purchasing anything made in China (haven't bought a Chinese made product in almost 10 years). . . and I'm really happy Fein continues to stay the high road and not sell-out like its American and Japanese manufacturing counterparts just to make a little more money . . . still made in Germany.
This version of the Fein gets you a Multimaster at pretty close to the price of the "competition" . . . and best of all, you don't have to fool with the crummy box Fein includes in other versions . . . I'm told that there will be a Systainer available for it in this country in a few months.
If you're looking for an oscillating tool you've got an easy decision . . . homeowners who just need one to do stuff around the house should buy something really cheap (Harbor Freight) and throw it out when they break it . . . professionals should buy the Fein Multimaster.
And just a word about CPO . . . their prices are competitive, and they really do ship faster than anybody in the industry . . . their customer service has never failed to impress.
Comments about MultiMaster Start Q Basic Oscillating Tool Kit with FREE 1-3/8 in. Long-Life E-Cut Blade:
great tool to have
Every FEIN power tool is carefully inspected, tested, and is subject to FEIN Quality Assurance's stringent controls. FEIN grants a manufacturer guarantee for precise construction and faultless material on its power tools for the duration of (1) one year - appropriately as of purchase date.
This guarantee period is extended to 3 years for all FEIN power tools purchased after 1/1/2005 (Except FEIN High-Frequency Power Tools, FEIN Accu Tec Screw Guns, FEIN Balancer, FEIN Pipe Processing Tools, FEIN Compressed Air Tools, FEIN Battery Packs and Battery Chargers) if the purchaser has registered within 4 weeks of the purchase date. Registration has to be done by the customer himself on the Internet. Register online here. The proof of registration, which has to be printed out immediately, is valid as the confirmation along with the original sales receipt, which shows the purchase date. Registration can be done only if the customer accepts the storage of the queried information.
In case of a material or construction fault, a free repair will be done or in case a repair is impossible the free replacement of the device with a new one (or possibly a follow-up model).
This warranty does not cover damages that are the result of improper use such as nonobservance of the instructions, overload, operation with wrong voltages, wrong type of electricity, or unsuited accessories, as well as external influence such as dropping or striking. Not covered by the warrantee are furthermore wear from operational use under normal conditions.
Services covered by this guarantee declaration are provided solely by FEIN and by companies explicitly authorized for this by FEIN.
In case of assertion of claims from this warranty the power tool concerned has to be completely submitted or sent in along with the original sales receipt (that shows the purchase date and the product name). Partially or completely disassembled power tools cannot be accepted.
Contractual or legal warranty claims towards the retailer remain untouched by this manufacturer guarantee.
Please note that the 3-year FEIN PLUS guarantee is valid only in certain countries. Please see www.fein.de/warranty for a list of these countries.


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The Citizens United petition for a constitutional amendment to limit free speech by dissolving corporate personage is perhaps the most worrisome things heard at Town Meeting day in a while. It is worrisome in that some in our great nation, only a small group, do not understand the Constitution nor the heritage of this great nation we live in. Nor do they seem to understand the concepts of what a business or corporations are. Or the Citizens United case.
The case originated when Citizens United, a corporation, wanted to air a political documentary about Hillary Clinton within 30 days of the Democratic primary – prohibited by law. They wanted the court to enable them to do this with a preemptory injunction against the FEC. In essence, CU wanted to bypass election law.
However, this brought into question at the Supreme Court all aspects of the election laws, from free speech, corporate and union spending and the relative distinction between profit and nonprofit corporations.
This new petition initiative is an attempt to undo the Supreme Court ruling rising from CU's attempt to bypass election law.
It is a veiled attempt to stifle one political view to give the other an advantage. Truly sad! Freedom of speech in its inception by the framers of the Constitution was to guarantee all the right of political speech. Starting to deny one group this freedom can only have dire consequences in the future.
But the issue of corporate personage is not merely to suppress free speech, it is also to dissolve the 14th Amendment, the right to due process.
As I said at the Town Meeting, which corporations would be affected and lose their personage and constitutional rights? The petition stated "corporations." Does that mean all businesses, including the private interest groups like VPRIG, the Vermont Legal Defense Fund, the Sierra Club, etc., which are corporations, would lose their voice? But the petition speaks nothing of unions. All businesses would be subject to the capricious and arbitrary whims of governments. And clearly that would hinge on what party was in power at the time.
What makes it worrisome is that these individuals are not against all corporations, it is just the ones they don't like. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders wants the constitutional amendment to only limit personage to "for profit" corporations and not unions.
Would that mean Hollywood corporations would be forbidden from making movies with political content? Would all news corporations be banned from commenting on political issues? After all they are spending money to push a political view.
Again, I guess it would depend on the party in power as to what part of the law would be enforced and against whom?
The reasons I heard of in regard to stripping corporations of their personage and their 1st and 14th Amendment rights were that big money from big business runs the country, or words to that effect. Big business money controls the elections. Let's look at these statements about big business and their power of money.
I would ask, if big business money did control the country, would the following be true?
Would Barack Obama have gotten elected?
Would the EPA run roughshod over business?
Would there be an OSHA or Civil Rights Commission that sues companies for millions upon millions each year?
I am not arguing the merits of these organizations; I am pointing out that if the all-powerful businesses were that powerful they wouldn't permit these types of government organizations to interfere with their businesses.
If the issue was purely about money controlling the elections then one would have to consider all forms of massive wealth in the amendment. It would have to prohibit trust funds, charities, private interest groups, union funds and their "in kind" contributions and personal wealth.
We have guys like Corzine, Lautenberg, Bloomberg, Sanders and Soros who have enough wealth to make it difficult to compete against in an election. Foundations like the Ford Foundation and unions like the United Auto Workers and the AFT, etc., that have enormous wealth to control an election. In fact the Auto Workers said they spent $30MM to elect Obama.
Just look what is happening in Wisconsin with union wealth. They want to stop a governor who is trying to control out-of-control spending for the state and its municipalities. Again, I am not arguing the merits of either side but pointing out the fact that union wealth and spending can or attempt to control a government. Just look at Europe.
The 1st and 14th Amendments protect us from tyranny. Erosion of these basic protections as proposed by the Citizens United movement for political benefit is similar to what occurred in Europe in the 1930 and 1940s.
If we look at a business, whether a sole proprietorship, partnership, LLC, 501c, or "C" corporation, we see that they are nothing more than an individual or collection of individuals, who have constitutional rights individually, that have banned together to conduct a business for whatever purpose. One would ask, why are their 501c corporations?
It is hard for me to see the difference between a "non" or "not for profit" company and a "for profit" company. They are groups of individuals that are bound together by a legal document for a common purpose. It would seem natural that the collection of individuals would have the same rights in a group as they would singularly.
The courts have ruled on the issue of corporate personage since the early 1800s. Each time it was to protect a group of individuals from overstepping and capricious behavior of government. In fact one of the earliest Supreme Court cases involving personage was here in Vermont Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts v. Town of Pawlet (1823).
This petition is a poorly hidden attempt to stifle opposition to a peculiar political ideology veiled in obvious specious reasoning with some makeshift patriotic overtones. Clearly they are not speaking about American values or ideology.
Bifano lives in Warren.


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I also use post-black. Works better for me than pre-black. Caswell's is the brand I use. Your parts look great!
I have a daughter. I tell her, "911 is what you dial after you're raped. 1911 is what you should have before they try."
Ill never put paint on another firearm.
I used Caswell Black Oxide for post dip.
American By Birth, Southern By the Grace Of God


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Last time in the GoGrid Cloud Survey Report series, I wrote on cloud use cases and reasons for migrating to the cloud. This week, I wanted to focus on everybody's favorite topic: security and compliance in the cloud.
If you're brand new to this series, let me catch you up to speed. At the beginning of the year, GoGrid gathered feedback from over 500 CTOs, developers and IT professionals relating to cloud computing and best practices. This week, we're highlighting the results from the question "What type of security/compliance do you require in the cloud?"
You may have noticed, whenever there is a conversation about Infrastructure-as-a-Service, the security debate is sure to follow. We wanted to see what types of security the IT industry uses and which were the most important to maintaining compliance.
What Type of Security/Compliance Do You Require in the Cloud?
As seen in the chart above, private VLANs, network layer firewalls and DDoS mitigation are the most required form of security according to our respondents, followed closely by Virtual Private Networks.
(more…) «GoGrid Cloud Survey Report – Security & Compliance (Part 4)»


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Monday, January 14, 2013
The Pinewood varsity girls basketball team opened its 2012-2013 season with a convincing win over Heathwood Hall last week.
The Lady Panthers defeated The Highlanders 61-33. The first quarter was fairly evenly matched with Pinewood taking a slight 15-10 lead.
In the second and third quarters Pinewood took the game way out of reach by posting 32 points to Heathwood Halls 13.
The leading scorers for Pinewood were Bri Boyd with 14 and Jenifer Rhodes with 11.
Pinewood coach Nancy Beatty was pleased with the outcome.
I was very happy with how we played as a team, Beatty said. We defended well and we ran the floor well.
The Lady Panthers were also in action over the weekend at The Baron Classic at Wilson Hall in Sumter.
On Friday Pinewood defeated Wilson Hall 49-17. The moment the game started it was obvious Wilson Hall was outmatched.
The Lady Panthers took the lead and never looked back, playing a fast-paced, no-nonsense game. The whole squad saw considerable playing time with no impact on the momentum of the game. They were able to hold the Barons while putting points on the scoreboard.
On Saturday the Lady Panthers beat Palmetto Christian 55-32. After Rhodes won the tip off, the ball went to Raygon Hendrix who passed to Maria Corella who then laid it up to score in the first three seconds. The game slowed a little after that with shots not dropping and fouls being made.
It looked like the Lady Panthers didn't expect the quality of play the Palmetto Christians brought to the table and after two lead changes, the Panthers finished up the first quarter leading 16-15. The Panthers stepped it up after that and never lost the lead again. Pinewood ended the half at 27-19.
The Panthers turned up the speed, pace and performance in the second half and took control. It wasn't the Lady Panthers best performance, but it did reflect their mental toughness and focus.
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Unjust Discrimination? (UPDATED)
Eduardo Moisés Peñalver April 24, 2013 - 11:17am
The obituary for the mother of a (Methodist) female gym teacher at a Catholic high school in Ohio mentions said gym teacher's female partner. Gym teacher is promptly fired. Maybe Cardinal Dolan should get Bishop Campbell on the horn and explain to him that Catholics are supposed to "try our darndest to make sure we're not anti-anybody." (HT Balloon Juice)UPDATE: Here's a link to the obit. It's just sad. And, to be honest, I'm sick of this stuff happening in my name as a Catholic. At some point, doesn't toothless dissent become complicity?UPDATE II: Here's a very moving interview with the teacher. I wonder what impact this firing will have on the young students' relationship with their church. I don't even know this woman and it's testing mine.
And here's Bryan Fischer, defending the termination. My mom has always said you can tell a lot about someone by who their friends are.
Commenting Guidelines
Ann Oliver- When I was a young woman (1960s) people did lose their jobs over issues of sexual morality. A friend of mine (same age) was fired when she became pregnant out of wedlock. Gay people were certainly fired. My father, the head of a department at a public college, was frustrated for years over his inability to prove that a certain professor was gay, so as to get him fired. (There was no suggestion the man was having sex with students.) My first real job had health insurance that explicetly did NOT cover childbirth if a female employee became pregnant out of wedlock.Even today, some universities discipline female students who get pregnant out of wedlock. This came up in the wonderful blog "Experimental Theology" written by a professor at Abilene Christian university.I do not want those days back.And I see a creeping pattern of the Catholic bishops using their economic clout to try to enforce norms and beliefs on contraception, chastity and homosexuality. Especially since the bishops seem determined to get effective power to deny employees at hospitals and universities contraceptive coverage, I am really worried that this will escalate into firing people from hospitals and universities for being in a gay relationship.If I seem a little paranoid, please undertand that I live in the Diocese of Oakland (CA) which until recently had the same Bishop Salvatore J. Cordileone mentioned by Jim McCrea. Bishop Cordileone made life very difficult for Catholics like myself who are prolife but vote usually Democratic because of war and poverty. Life under Bishop Cordileone tends to make one wary of the bishops over-using their power.
This is such a sad story. I feel so badly for this woman and how she was treated.
Claire -- that link is broken, but I've posted a working link as an update. Thanks for tracking it down.
I've long wondered what is included in unjust discrimination. I don't think I've ever seen a bishop say something wasn't justified. Even violence often gets a blame the victim treatment.I sometimes feel sorry for the more well-meaning bishops. The official position of the Catholic Church doesn't leave much room for good news for gays and lesbians. They can't marry someone they love, marrying someone of the opposite sex would unfair to the spouse, and gay men aren't supposed to become priests. All that's left is to live alone lying to everyone because if you tell the lady at church the real reason why you don't want to go on a date with her son or daughter, they will say that you deserve any discrimination or violence that happens as a result. Where is the Gospel in that?
And all that because Julie happens to be an exclusively female name.I always have to remind myself that Marie-Dominique Chenu is male. Indeed, querying google images confirms that every person called Marie-Dominique appears to be female, unless they're vowed religious.
Kudos to the Columbus reporter for this paragraph:"The Catholic Church considers sex between members of the same gender harmful and wrong but also urges kindness, compassion and sensitivity toward people with same-sex attractions."
At some point, doesnt toothless dissent become complicity?****************************************Exactly. This is the reason I am now sitting in the pews in an Episcopal church on Sundays. Catholics are voiceless and powerless against the hierarchy. Our money seems to be the only way to be heard and not enough Catholics are willing to speak out by withholding their "treasure" from the "princes" of the church. After years of a constant and sickening drumbeat of story after story from country after country of bishops enabling pedophiles and protecting them from the civil justice system - and a pope who did NOTHING to hold those bishops accountable, I decided that staying as a "paying" member of the church was dangerously close to enabling those who enabled the pedophiles. Complicity. Very few Catholics want to think about how they too just might be complicit in enabling too many in the hierarchy to continue unhindered on their un-Christlike way.I like Francis so far - but I will not return to the Catholic pews on Sunday unless he signals very clearly that bishops will be held accountable for protecting sexual molesters who are priests under their oversight. And the only way he can do this now is to make a very public example of at least one bishop. Ideally, Cardinal Law should be sent to pray on his knees for the rest of his life, without the luxury he enjoys in Rome. And Bishop Finn should be asked to resign - immediately.
The story has just about everything but a helpful "latae sententiae" thrown in by a well-meaning (?) outside source. I guess that doesn't apply to Methodists. But you have the anonymous denouncer. And you have to give him or her credit, because I had to re-read the obit several times before I could identify the offense, even though I was looking for it. And the sentence without a trial or a hearing or, for that matter, a how do you do? And the sentence delivered during bereavement. And the clammed-up chancery office on grounds it's all about a "personnel" matter.Wonderful, if you believe in that kind of church. But if you believe in that kind of church, why wouldn't you want to brag about it when you pull off the perfect act of sanctimony?
I am not happy whenever anyone loses a job. But it seems unlikely she was unaware that she was violating a condition of employment. What is missing from the news story is any comment from school officials or church officials. And thus the story is now being shaped by the predictable bevy of unsympathetic commenters. My first piece of advice to any administrator finding herself caught up in a story of this nature is, "When the media calls, pick up the phone." (The second is, "... and then say the right things.")One element not missing from this story is that it was instigated by a report from a concerned parent or parishioner. That triggering mechanism seems to be a pretty constant feature of these situations.
"What is missing from the news story is any comment from school officials or church officials."It seems unlikely they are unaware of the impact of news stories like this. It is also customary for an employer/immediate supervisor to make the judgment that such "violations" are ignored unless and until the Culture of Complaint kicks in.A person needs a job and is good at it. People will accept less than optimal conditions of employment, with the complicity of higher-ups all the time. It's the nature of our society. I'm something of a skeptic on Jim P's creeping blame-the-victim schtick here. But yes, people do go into these situations with eyes open.
This reminds me of Bishop Vasa and his proposed "Addendum" to the existing teachers contract which you had to sin if you wanted to be rehired for he coming yearIt caused such an upoar that he backed off and said he would take a couple of years to get input on the subject.http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org/CatholicEducationDaily/DetailsPage/...
"At some point, doesnt toothless dissent become complicity?"Yes, it does.This may not be such a case because it is so particular even if so wrong. A continued widespread pattern of such cases may arise to the point.I personally believe we already passed that point in connection with the clergy sex abuse crisis, so this incident is just a match thrown into a forest fire.
I am not happy whenever anyone loses a job. But it seems unlikely she was unaware that she was violating a condition of employment.If I recall correctly, about 25% of the teachers in Bishop Vasa's diocese were non-Catholics. Skipping the issue of what rules ought to apply to Catholic teachers, one of the issues raised by opponents was the extent to which non-Catholic teachers should have to live their private lives in accordance with Catholic teachings.
"Im something of a skeptic on Jim Ps creeping blame-the-victim schtick here."To say someone took a risk with eyes wide open is not to blame the victim. It's to note that she took a risk. It is inherent to risk-taking that things may not work out in the risk-taker's favor.I'm sorry she's out of a job. I hope she finds another one quickly. I hope she lives a virtuous life, too, one that shines forth as an example to children and the larger community. In the eyes of the church, she wasn't doing that, which is why her employment by the church was deemed to be untenable.
"Heres a link to the obit. Its just sad."That her mother died is sad. Many persons' mothers have died, and thus it's something that elicits powerful emotions of sympathy in a great many people. That the death also caused an obituary to be published that in turn led to her dismissal is a mildly interesting causal chain. But the general aura of sadness around the story doesn't really have any bearing on this school's employment standards for teachers.
http://www.abc6onyourside.com/shared/news/features/top-stories/stories/w...The principal of Bishop Watterson High School has released a letter that states: "Documents support termination. You were not terminated for being gay but for the spousal relationship publicized in the newspaper which is against church teachings."
Thanks, Claire. "Publicized in the newspaper"? Yeah, if someone was really looking. Is the obit the only "Document(s) support termination"? Or is there another document -- the unnamed source, who Jim Pauwels assumes (I don't) was a concerned parent. I'm sure he/she was a snitch; for the rest, we'd have to know who we are talking about."But the general aura of sadness around the story doesnt really have any bearing on this schools employment standards for teachers." Well, in the general aura of sadness, HOW the school notified the teacher is relevant (among Christians), and "Documents support termination" is not, I believe, anyone's idea of a good how.
" the unnamed source, who Jim Pauwels assumes (I dont) was a concerned parent. Im sure he/she was a snitch; for the rest, wed have to know who we are talking about."You're right, Tom, that we don't know who notified whom in this case and what motivated it. My "parent or parishioner" was meant to be a more general comment on how I've observed that these things tend to be brought to the authorities' attention.As to the "snitch": unless you know more than has been reported here, we don't know anything about those motives, either. It could have been through the most hateful bigotry, or a particularly malicious impish streak, or someone who actually and genuinely accepts what the church teaches and thought that something should be done.
I read somewhere that a student asked her mother to pray for her gym teacher, telling her that she had recently lost her mother. So the student's mother looked for the obituary, but when she read the obituary, she must have thought that getting her fired was a better idea than praying for her.
"To say someone took a risk with eyes wide open is not to blame the victim. Its to note that she took a risk. It is inherent to risk-taking that things may not work out in the risk-takers favor."That's well enough to say when you sit in the boss's chair. Another risk-taker here was the principal. And pastors make choices like this, too. You don't often hear of clergy getting tossed out on their ***es when they knowingly hire someone deemed unacceptable to the Temple Police. "Im sorry shes out of a job."You sure as **** should be. But thanks for the response.
I, too, think it was cruel to fire this teacher. But I also think it is completely appropriate for religious schools (or any school) to insist that teachers model the behavior they want children to emulate. What is the fair way to encourage this? (I know there are all kinds of issues about selective enforcement), but how should a school address an issue where a teacher engages in behavior that the school believes send a negative message to children?We had some public school teachers who were fired here a couple of years ago because they were arrested for smoking reefer after a rock concert. And a Catholic school teacher in Brooklyn was fired because she was pregnant and unwed.I think the school systems were perfectly within their rights, but thought in both cases, a more equitable solution would be to give the workers another job, at the same pay, within the school system, just not in the classroom.
There was a similar episode recently involving a volunteer for at least 3 ministries in his parish in the RC Diocese of Rockville Centre (Long Island in New York State). He was dismissed after an anonymous note was sent to the bishop. It seems that the Roman bishops are more willing to rely on anonymous informers than the Roman emperor Trajan, who told provincial governor Pliny the Younger not to act on anonymous complaints that certain people were Christians. The standards of your church's episcopate are now lower than those of the Roman Empire!
Nineteen years of apparently exemplary service as a teacher. Respected as a role model by her students. In a time of bereavement, includes the name of the person she loves in a list of her mother's survivors. Fired therefore for "immorality" and "serious unethical conduct."The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?And Jesus said to them, "Yeah, absolutely! Gimme one of them stones, willya?"
For those who see this termination strictly in terms of the "mean old church with outmoded, unjust, and insensitive views", just how would you propose the leaders of the church go about changing its long held conviction about sexual morality? Should Pope Francis or Cardinal Dolan just call a press conference and state that the Catholic Church has decided that henceforth all sexual acts between consenting adults (or even children of a certain age) either before or during a marriage--regardless of sexual orientation--are licit and moral. I know a great many non-Catholics and non practicing Catholics who would welcome such an announcement with great joy. Oh, and some practicing Catholics might be glad as well. What a silly notion it is that all human beings should wrestle with difficult moral choices, even actively seeking the knowledge of God's will through prayer. Perhaps while Francis and Dolan are at it they can tell priests and seminarians not to have hangups about sexual tensions in their own lives and just go ahead and enjoy themselves.Is it a requirement of liberal thinking to believe that all people who are having sex or participating in a sexual relationship are seeking moral goodness. I don't know anything about this teacher or her life with her partner other than that she didn't exercise a prudent judgment in wording the obituary in such a way as to raise concern about her employment contract. I guess some of you would be alright if the diocesan and school authorities announced that henceforth we will be teaching in our schools and parishes that what individuals choose to do sexually is not of any concern or interest to us.I'm writing this as a person who at one time in my life embraced the notion that anything goes. It didn't work out that well for me.
The issue is not be whether or not the non-Catholic teacher did not live according to Church teaching. The issue is whether or not she broke her contract with the school. The Church is not immune from the law of contract. Nor should the teacher be.What did their contract say?
Ann: there you go.http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/04/17/backers-rally-f...According to a contract between the Columbus diocese and the Central Ohio Association of Catholic Educators, teachers can be terminated for immorality or serious unethical conduct.
"For those who see this termination strictly in terms of the mean old church with outmoded, unjust, and insensitive views, just how would you propose the leaders of the church go about changing its long held conviction about sexual morality?"How exactly did this teacher violate the church's restricitons on sexual conduct? I gave a cursory glace at the obituary and the words "sexually active" appear to be absent.
At some point, doesnt toothless dissent become complicity?Yes! how would you propose the leaders of the church go about changing its long held conviction about sexual morality?First, this isn't about giving up on sexual morality, it's about the church's belief that it is intrinsically evil for people of the same sex to love each other. The way the church could proceed on a different path is to do what other churches, like the Episcopal Church have done - re-examining the scriptural basis for their belief, taking into account the wisdom of the laity, taking into account what science and social science has to say on the subject, by admitting that they are not infallible.
" ... doesnt toothless dissent become complicity?"There's even a Latin phrase for it, so it has to be a Law of The Church: Tacitus consensus pares
"But I also think it is completely appropriate for religious schools (or any school) to insist that teachers model the behavior they want children to emulate. "What about principals and pastors and bishops? If employers know and hire the person anyway, let's discuss what that says to "impressionable" children. Let's face it: that communicates a moral impression also.
"I hope she lives a virtuous life, too, one that shines forth as an example to children and the larger community. In the eyes of the church, she wasnt doing that, which is why her employment by the church was deemed to be untenable."Good Lord, Jim: if every employee of a church institution ... including the clergy ... were held to that standard, who would be left? Darned few, particularly within the higher levels of the clergy.
John W. Feehily 04/24/2013 - 4:05 pmIn other words, if you can't persuade or convince ... fire.Yes, that'll kick off the New Evangelization with vigor!! We'll have to open some of those closed churches to accomodate the influx of converts who love that approach." .. she didnt exercise a prudent judgment in wording the obituary in such a way as to raise concern about her employment contract .."In other words, lie. Even more churches will have to be opened if that is a tenent of the New Evangelization.Mt 23: 27-28:27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead mens bones and every kind of filth. 28 Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing."
I assume that Jim Pauwels agrees that few bishops currently in power should remain in power. There are many, many bishops who are guilty of duplicity in protecting sexual molesters and thus enabling pedophiles, guilty of hiding crimes from the police, and guilty of lying by "mental reservation". In addition as a group across the board, they are guilty of absolute failure to exercise "fraternal correction" when it comes to their brother bishops. These bishops certainly don't stand as shining examples of living "virtuous" lives nor do they present any kind of positive example to children about how to live a moral and virtuous life. All should be fired. But by whom?As far as the firing of the unwed pregnant teacher goes, perhaps the clergy would have preferred that she get an abortion, as long as she went to a clinic where it would be unlikely for a member of the parish to see her entering it. How about helping women who face unwed pregnancy instead of making their lives even harder? Is that too "christian" to ask of these so-called "christian leaders"?
Thanks, Claire.Now the question becomes: did the parties to the contract agree on the meaning of "immorality". I wonder how that question would fare in the Courts.My point is that *both* the school and the teacher need to respect each others' rights to conscience. If they cannot agree about what is moral, then they should not have signed the contract in the first place. This might sound heartless, but as a pluralistic nation we absolutely must respect other peoples' rights to think and sometimes to act differently, especially as regards utterly private matters, and so our contracts should not be entered into lightly if consciences are likely to be involved in carrying out the provisions of the contracts. We don't really know the ins and outs of Ms. Hale's employment -- for instance, did she discuss the contract's meaning with the other person who signed it? Who signed it? Was that person the same one who fired her? Contract law -- and, a fortiori, contract justice -- can be extraordinarily complex. We really shouldn't jump to moral conclusions about any of these people.Except perhaps the anonymous accuser. The burden of proof justifying *that* sort of behavior is on the accuser. Creep!
I assume that the diocese gets to define what constitutes "immorality". I wonder if they, the third party, directed the school principal to terminate the teacher right away, without waiting a few months to do it discreetly at the end of the school year.
Regarding the teacher who was fired for being pregnant and unmarried- every single one of her female students will realize (eventually if not immediately) that she could have kept her job if she had had an abortion and kept silent about the fact. Firing her was not only cruel, it was self-defeating to the point of absurdity.
"As far as the firing of the unwed pregnant teacher goes"Anne Chapman - I'm sorry, you've lost me ... those aren't the circumstances for the teacher under discussion, right?
"How exactly did this teacher violate the churchs restricitons on sexual conduct? I gave a cursory glace at the obituary and the words sexually active appear to be absent."A fair point. We'd hope there was some due process here. But we don't know, based on what has been presented.
While this case is being argued out, let's not forget that there are thousands of gay employees of the church who are in relationships and are not being hunted down, fired, etc. Indeed, they are invited to the church suppers and accepted just as they are, despite the official prohibition against their lifestyle and choices. Toothless? I don't think so. Those are important facts of life to those people. The fact that this one case came to the press shows that it stands out, no? Or are we to suppose that everyone else employed by the church is a heterosexual or in the closet? Ha.
Two comments: First, if one reads the letters of Dorothy Day, would one not be appalled at the treatment of this teacher. If one reads the works of Jean Vanier, hwo would any of us cast the first stone? (If a stone was not cast in this case, I don't know what a stone is? Today is the feast of St. Mary Euphrasia Pelletier, who worked with prostitutes. Speaking of them she said: "Love them, console and strengthen these wounded sheep; make them happy, very happy, by God's grace; THIS IS YOUR DUTY." (my emphasis). conclusion: The presumption is never that someone is to be denounced, condemned, etc. It's rebuttable, of course. But the presumption is rather that anyone,bishop, pope, etc, who condemns, etc.is in the wrong. Again, this is a rebuttable presumption, but the rebuttal has to be made.Second, with Jim McCrea, I'd say: If the actions against this teacher are souupsed to be consonant with the "new evangelization" then count me out. I know I'm not important. That is not the issue. Still, just count me out.
"A fair point."It's much more than a fair point.This conduct, repeated over and over, demostrates why the Church's claim that it condemns only homsexual acts, not the inclination, violates the Eighth Commandment....and yet, Bishop Finn remains in office. Complicity...
I can't say that this is objectively unjust, if the lesbian teacher had signed a contract that her personal life must conform to Catholic standards, but the overall pattern troubles me (the two fired teachers, the bishop who wants non-Catholic teachers to profess agreement with Catholic teaching on contraception, the bishops' apparent determnation not just to distance themselves from the contraception mandate, but to successfully deny hospital employees access to contraception). The bishops are acting like their first and default strategy is to use economic clout to bully, coerce, and punish, and that is not the spirit of Christ.
The issue is not sex (pace, John W. Feehily) nor contract law. It is hypocrisy and, worse, sanctimony. If Holy Mother really wants to act upon every allegation of sin, I can pile up enough delations of Catholics who are grievously raving bigots and incorrigibly craven war mongers to cause job-related medical issues to the spine and knees of the bishop's mail carrier. But such reports will not be acted upon.I think Rita Ferrone has it exactly right about sex. It isn't an issue in the church until and unless it threatens to become public. And if it isn't about sex, it never will be an issue. But when church authorities decide they have to duck and cover, they could handle the situation with much more compassion than they handled this one, and they would if they took to heart the basics taught by the Founder. It didn't have to be, "Sorry about your mom; you're fired."
To accept this woman's sexual attraction and lifestyle as normal and valid, and to allow her to continue teaching in a Catholic school would indicate that the Catholic authorities at said school do not really believe in the Catholic faith, and that being gay and participating in gay sexual activities is just fine, thank you very much.To cave on this issue would be another betrayal of our Lord, another lash of the whip, another nail through His hands. Just saying...
Every time a gay teacher gets fired, Jesus gets a boo-boo kissed.
Todays gospel reading seems apropos. Observe Jesus word or you are condemning yourself. He does not need to condemn us, we are doing it to ourselves. So while He doesn't cast a stone, it does not mean the actions are acceptable. And we should not pretend that they are.And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them,I do not condemn him,for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my wordshas something to judge him: the word that I spoke,it will condemn him on the last day,because I did not speak on my own,but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak.
"To accept this womans sexual attraction and lifestyle as normal and valid..."The Church acknowledges that the attraction itself is not sinful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mychal_JudgeTherefore sexual orentation alone is not a Christian basis for employment termination.Those who then go on to speculate on so called lifestyle and the individual sexual practices that other people *may possibly have* engaged in, without very specific evidence of such acts, have their minds in the gutter.Suppose a man shared a house with another man for decades, publicly displaying effusive affection to that man and and upon that man's death, exclaimed, "I have ever thought no bereavement was equal to that of a husband's or a wife's, but I feel it difficult to believe that any can be greater, or any one's sorrow greater, than mine." and later asked to be buried in the same tomb with a joint inscription reading, "Out of shadows and phantasms into the truth."What would we call that man? "Disordered lifestyle practitioner?" Or, perhaps, "Cardinal" or even, "Blessed?"
"A fair point. Wed hope there was some due process here."To the extent that we're dealing with this as a question of whether it was right for the school to terminate the teacher at some point, I think the school hierarchy has already won a big PR victory. It means we're not asking a prior question, which is what kind of human being finds out about something like this from an obituary and then fires the deceased person's daughter in less that two months? On its face, it's like a parody of draconian lack of compassion. Why not take this up at the end of the school year?
About the Author
Eduardo Moisés Peñalver is the Allan R. Tessler Dean of the Cornell Law School. He is the author of numerous books and articles on the subjects of property and land use law.


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