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Toledo 'Bucket List' is ultimate Glass City experienceWritten by Amy Biolchini | | email@example.com
A "Bucket List," popularized by the 2007 Jack Nicholson/Morgan Freeman film of the same name, is a list of life experiences you hope to accomplish before you, you know, kick the bucket.
Thousands of websites compile lists for local communities, states and entire countries.
What should be on the Toledo Bucket List? Toledo Free Press interviewed dozens of local residents and sought Twitter and Facebook feedback to compile the following list. There will no doubt be some places left off that will cause us to smack our foreheads, so help us finish the list with your suggestions, e-mailed to email@example.com or posted on our Facebook wall at www.facebook.com/toledofreepress.
The Hall of Fame
Nearly every person we spoke to agreed on four experiences: The Toledo Zoo, a Mud Hens game at Fifth Third Field, the Toledo Museum of Art and Tony Packo's. These are all things that say "Toledo," but there's more to the Glass City than the big four. So we began by placing those local superstars in the Bucket List Hall of Fame, saluting with great respect, and taking a look at less well-known nominees.
After polling City Council members, artists, writers and Toledo enthusiasts, 11 experiences emerged as the most consistently endorsed out of all those submitted. Compiled into a random-order "Bucket List," the following places, events and foods lend a perspective on a city that embraces a thriving, creative … thriftiness.
Wildwood Preserve
Seven trails spanning approximately 500 wooded acres in the midst of Toledo make Wildwood Preserve Metropark an overwhelmingly popular destination for walkers and runners. Cathy Miller, interim president of Destination Toledo Inc., suggests taking the green trail.
"Less foot traffic than other trails and you may spot a deer in the middle of the day," Miller said.
The Manor House at Wildwood also attracts many visitors, like Sauder Village director of sales and marketing Jeanette Smith, who said she likes seeing it decorated for the winter holiday celebrations. Fifteen-thousand people are expected to attend the Holidays in the Manor House event during the first week in December, according to Scott Carpenter, media relations manager for the Metroparks.
"It is definitely the busiest of the 10 metroparks," Carpenter said of Wildwood. "In face-to-face surveys in the park, we have learned that people like Wildwood because it is clean and safe."
But there's another reason Wildwood is special: "The park exists today because of the determination of the community to preserve the property as public land. Lucas County residents approved a special property tax levy in the 1970s to purchase the property, which was destined to be sold for a private residential development. It is 'the people's park,' and I think that is part of its popularity today," Carpenter said.
Wildwood is located at 5100 W. Central Ave. and is open daily from
7 a.m. until dark.
Old West End Festival
Toledo's Old West End has the largest collection of Victorian, Edwardian and Queen Anne homes in the nation, according to Dan Schmitt, Old West End Association president. The eclectic mix of architecture, families, religions and socio-economic groups makes the neighborhood the "little bohemia of Ohio," Schmitt said. Bordered by the Toledo Museum of Art, Collingwood Boulevard, Central Avenue and Glenwood Avenue, the Old West End hosts events throughout the year.
The Old West End Festival takes place in June and attracts 12,000 to 15,000 people, Schmitt said. Encompassing all 850 homes in the 25 city blocks of the Old West End, the festival has everything from food to art vendors, a 5K run and tents for children, entertainment and beer.
"It's the core. The founding fathers of our city raised their families in the Old West End," Schmitt said.
Schmitt recommended festival-goers visit the house tours, the art fair under the canopy at the Toledo Museum of Art's Glass Pavilion, see the King Wamba parade and check out the numerous food vendors.
"It's one of the few events that's family-friendly and you don't have to spend anything," Schmitt said. "The parade is on the level of the Greenwich Village Halloween parade: Art cars, fire-eaters and the Glass City Rollers."
Rachel Richardson, local activist, musician and Toledo Free Press columnist, recommended camping out in the Old West End during the weekend of the festival. City Councilman Steve Steel said that he has resided in the Old West End for 22 years, and definitely recommends the festival.
"Arts, architecture, music and food, all in the most eclectic neighborhood in town," Steel said.
Sponsored by the Women of the Old West End, the 2010 Tours de Noel offers a glimpse into five to six of the historic homes decorated for the holidays. Both Miller of Destination Toledo Inc. and Amy Adler of the Frogtown Froggy Museum agreed on the beauty of the homes in this annual event. This year, the tours begin Dec. 5 and include the Ferris Copeland-Shull home, the Mallow Lange home, the Rorick Phipps home and the Geleerd Clymer-Wishart Home, all on Scottwood Avenue. Also in the tour are the Mansion View Inn on Collingwood Boulevard and a gift boutique at the Park Lane Luxury Apartments on 23rd Street.
Main Public Library
With Vitrolite murals circling the lobby's vaulted ceiling, the main branch of the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library is home to half a million books on the first floor alone. An 85,000-square-foot addition in 2001 helped modernize the facility to meet the needs of the public. According to Nancy Foth, manager of library branch services, the main library saw almost 700,000 visitors in 2009.
Lisa Renee Ward, Toledo Free Press columnist and Glass City Jungle blogger, said the best part of the main library is its Local History and Genealogy Library Department for its wealth of information and knowledgeable staff.
The library is trying to attract teens back to the library with the game room specifically for 13 to 18-year-olds, Foth said. With an Xbox 360, a Playstation3 and a Wii, the room sees more than 100 different visitors a month, Foth said. The children's section also includes numerous Vitrolite murals, and there are trained librarians available to assist kids learning to read. The main library offers services to the public to aid with job searches, small businesses and computer programs. Foth said the computers are the most-used service in the library.
"What we're doing is expanding our role to meet the needs and interests of people in the community," Foth said. "We're trying to reach out, whether you're fixing your car, writing your resume, learning how to read, reading a good book or watching a movie."
Art Walks
Miller of Destination Toledo Inc. calls the Arts Commission of Greater Toledo's Art Walks a "must for anyone who has yet to experience one."
The Thursday Art Walks, sponsored by the Arts Commission, feature approximately 20 participating Downtown galleries that open their doors for several hours to allow fellow artists and patrons to mingle, peruse and purchase art. Street performers provide entertainment between galleries, including poets, fire-eaters and belly dancers. Richardson said she recommends stopping by Bozarts Fine Art and Music Gallery, owned by Jerry Gray, at 151 S. St. Clair St. Other galleries included in past Art Walks are Sur Saint Clair, Homeslice Pizza, Downtown Latte, the Ford Gallery, the Secor Studios and Madhouse Gallery.
Warehouse District
The shops, restaurants and bars with live music, the historic buildings in the warehouse district and the seasonal farmers markets all earned Downtown Toledo a spot on the bucket list. In walking distance from Tony Packo's and the Spaghetti Warehouse, there are numerous art galleries and storefronts that beg to be visited. South St. Clair Street is home to many small businesses, including Swank Gifts, which vends one-of-a-kind jewelry and Downtown Latte, an inviting coffee shop.
Steel said he would recommend live music at Downtown venues.
"GoLab! at the Ottawa Tavern, Polka Floyd at Mickey Finn's, Jeff Stewart at Wesley's, Jason Quick and Vytas at Manhattan's, Kyle White at PizzaPapalis, Patrick Lewandowski and Bobby May anywhere … you get the idea," Steel said.
Richardson lent her support for Wesley's Bar's Old School Friday nights and suggested Murphy's Place Jazz Club with Claude Black and Clifford Murphy.
Another Warehouse District gem is the Toledo Farmers Market at 525 Market St., open Saturday mornings in the spring, summer and fall. Ward and Steel both said the fresh, local produce and home made goods make the farmers market a great destination.
Tailgating for UT football
Tailgating a Rockets football game at the University of Toledo is a popular pastime for many Toledoans. Miller suggests parking yourself in Lot 10, the closest lot to the north side of the stadium.
"Everyone enjoys the camaraderie, grilling out and seeing old friends. Top it off with a night game under the lights at the Glass Bowl and you have a great Saturday locked down," Miller said.
Tailgating the UT game versus rival Bowling Green is an event that City Councilwoman Lindsay Webb said she doesn't want to miss.
Toledo Botanical Garden
Located at 5403 Elmer Drive between Reynolds and Holland-Sylvania roads, the Toledo Botanical Garden is open 365 days a year, dawn until dusk and always offers free parking and admission. The garden opened in 1964, when George Crosby donated the initial 20 acres of land to the city of Toledo. The present-day 60 acres of gardens, landscapes and outdoor sculptures host many events, including the upcoming Heralding the Holidays festival Dec. 3 to Dec. 5. Roaming musicians will accompany displays of artwork by local artists and the botanical garden's resident art and horticultural organizations during the holiday festival.
Melissa Shaner, public relations coordinator for the gardens, noted the Crosby Festival of the Arts as the signature event for the garden. More than 200 artists from across the country participate in the juried arts summer festival that attracts almost a quarter of the 120,000 visitors the garden will see in an entire year. The next Crosby Festival will be June 25-26.
'The river runs through it'
The Maumee River is host to a multitude of events, from summer festivals and fireworks on the Fourth of July to fall color cruises on the Sandpiper. A 100-passenger cruise boat, the Sandpiper leaves from its Jefferson Avenue dock at Promenade Park for public rides, sunset cruises and private parties six months out of the year. It sees approximately 10,000 visitors per year, according to Sandpiper agent and tour guide Mary Dalby.
Miller of Destination Toledo Inc. recommended packing a cooler to bring on the boat ride.
"Bring a lunch and a bottle of wine. The best-kept secret is you can bring your own food and drink," Miller said.
The Sandpiper has been running continuously since it was built in Maumee at the Anderson Fabrication shop in 1984. Venturing as far upriver as the Toledo Harbor Lighthouse and as far downriver as the Toledo Country Club, the Sandpiper travels by some of the most defining parts of Toledo.
"We are a connecting point," Dalby said. "The river runs through it. We're always going past places where people and their families have worked."
While some may enjoy cruising the Maumee, like City Council member Webb, others may aspire to experience the city from a different angle, like Councilman Ludeman.
"I'd like to go to the top of the pylon on the Veterans Glass City Skyway Bridge, in the daytime and at night," Ludeman said.
Lagrange St. Polish festival
A ton of kielbasa, 40,000 pierogies, 300 kegs of beer and hundreds of pounds of sweet and sour cabbage, all consumed in one weekend at the Lagrange Street Polish Festival. An annual event since 1984, the summertime festival features polka bands, arts and crafts, food vendors, dancing and a pierogi-eating contest. Proceeds from the festival go toward neighborhood improvements and scholarships.
City Council member Webb recommended visiting on Sunday afternoon for the contests. Ward said the festival is special to her because of ties she has to the community there.
"My great-grandmother and other family lived in the Lagrange neighborhood," Ward said. "Great food and memories."
The Lagrange Street Polish Festival started after area business owners and residents met 30 years ago to address neighborhood concerns and the festival was produced as the solution. Initially a one day event, the festival now spans a Friday, Saturday and Sunday in July.
Mancy's and The Beirut
Mancy's Steak House has served aged, hand-cut steaks in Toledo since 1921, Mancy's is undoubtedly a city favorite. City Councilman George Sarantou said his personal favorite is the New York Strip Steak, although his fellow council member Ludeman said he would dine out every night just to try every item on the Mancy's menu. Located at 953 Phillips Ave., Mancy's comes as highly recommended as another institution of Toledo cuisine, The Beirut.
Founder and owner of The Beirut, Labib Hajjar, immigrated to the U.S. from Lebanon in the 1970s and opened a bakery. As the bakery's popularity and opportunities grew, Hajjar turned his pita bread enterprise into a Middle Eastern restaurant in 1977.
Although it has seen several locations, The Beirut is now at 4082 Monroe St.
The menu features traditional Lebanese staples of lamb, grains, lentils, parsley, herbs, olive oil, lemon juice and spices like cinnamon, nutmeg and mint. The Beirut also has an extensive wine menu with Californian, Italian and Lebanese varieties. Open for lunch, the restaurant takes reservations for dinner and has three private rooms available for parties.
Hajjar said he spends 60 to 70 hours a week in the restaurant, and learned everything he knows from his mother.
"I used to watch my mother cook," Hajjar said. "She never wrote any recipes down and tried to hide things from me."
Fresh pita bread is still homemade at the restaurant for in-house menu items, as well as several Italian dishes like lasagna, pizza and ravioli Hajjar included for the customers who might not be comfortable with Lebanese food.
"People travel and come back and say 'We've never seen anything like this,'" Hajjar said. "We've got over 150 years of experience in the kitchen."
Toledo Symphony Orchestra
With nearly 80 professional musicians, the Toledo Symphony Orchestra has been bringing music to the region for 67 consecutive seasons.
In its 2010-2011 season, the orchestra will conduct more than 400 performances across Ohio, Michigan and Indiana.
Councilman Steel recommended seeing the symphony perform in the Toledo Museum of Art Peristyle for a special experience.
The next special event for the symphony will be a collaborative performance of Handel's "Messiah" with the Toledo Choral Society and the Bowling Green State University Choral Society on Dec. 4 and 5.
In May, the orchestra plans a special trip to play at Carnegie Hall in New York City.
What about BG? A Bucket List for Wood County (by Hannah Nusser)
While Bowling Green has much to offer, here's a list of must-sees for everyone before they kick the bucket.
Cla-Zel Theatre
Whether it's to admire a historical landmark, catch a concert or work your way through its extensive beer list, the Cla-Zel has earned its name as a legendary must-see spot in Bowling Green. The Cla-Zel was first built as a movie theater in 1926. Its original movie screens still intact, this multifaceted venue offers something for adults seeking an unforgettable experience in Bowling Green nightlife.
The Cla-Zel is now a popular movie house, wine bar and banquet facility; it also serves as a concert venue for many blues and jazz fans.
"By far it is hands-down the classiest place in town," said Mike Thurau, a senior at Bowling Green State University.
It is located at 127 N. Main St.
Snook's Dream Cars
The No. 2 tourist attraction in Bowling Green, Snook's Dream Cars is gleaming with countless age-old treasures. The museum and event venue houses a collection of 1920s-1960s cars, all in working condition, said Amanda Ter Doest, museum director.
With more than 60 years worth of memorabilia, the museum is not just for car fanatics, Ter Doest said.
"We've had a lot of [different] people, like the wives that are drug along with their husbands, and truthfully they always find something that they like," Ter Doest said.
Patrons can admire old slot machines, jukeboxes, paintings of historical BG storefronts and even old theater seats from the Cla-Zel.
"It's not just a bunch of cars shoved somewhere," Ter Doest said. "There's quite a bit of history."
Admission is $4-6.
Wind turbines
Bowling Green goes green with this monumental wind farm. Standing as tall as a 30-story building, no wonder the wind turbines are the No. 1 tourist attraction in Bowling Green.
The wind farm is popular with out-of-towners because it is the only one of its kind in the state, said Wendy Stram, director of the Bowling Green Convention and Visitors Bureau.
The four massive white turbines produce enough electricity for about 3,000 Bowling Green residents.
"Anybody that lives in BG has probably seen them from afar but they might want to take a few minutes to see them up close and personal. It's the wave of the future," Stram said.
For those who would like to visit this must-see up close, there is a free informational kiosk located at the base of the turbines, on the corner of State Route 6 and Tontogany Road. Group tours are free and can be arranged by contacting Wendy Stram at (419) 353-9445.
Portage Quarry
The Portage Quarry may be one of Bowling Green's best-kept secrets.
Located just a mile outside of town at 12701 S. Dixie Hwy. and isolated from the road by trees, this recreation center offers all kinds of fun in the sun for all ages. The Portage Quarry serves as a campground, swimming and scuba diving hole, concert spot and all-around summer hangout.
Owner Jeff Rice offers scuba diving lessons, too; certified divers can explore a sunken speed boat, school bus, grain silo and even an airplane in the depths of the quarry.
"Who doesn't love water, sun and sand?" said Meredith Burge, a quarry lifeguard. "It's a comfortable beach, pretty mellow surroundings and it's like being at the beach in the middle of Bowling Green."
The Quarry is open from Memorial Day until Sept. 13.
City Park
Ride a bike. Take a stroll. Walk the dog. Have a picnic. Relax with a book. The possibilities are endless at the Bowling Green city parks.
Bowling Green Mayor John Quinn said the city's many parks range from beautiful to functional, and everyone should visit at least one in their lifetime.
"They're great places to visit and they're free 365 days a year," Quinn said.
The City Park is an all-purpose playground and picnic spot for the whole family. Simpson Garden Park, 1291 Conneaut Ave., has more than 10 gardens, including sensory gardens, sculpture areas and walking trails. Wintergarden Park, 615 S. Wintergarden Road., offers a nature center and two miles of biking and walking trails.
Tags: Art Walks, Arts Commission of Greater Toledo, Bucket List, Cathy Miller, City Park, Cla-Zel Theatre, Destination Toledo, Fifth Third Field, George Sarantou, Glass Bowl, Lagrange Street Polish Festival, Lisa Renee Ward, Mancy's, Maumee River, Metroparks, Mud Hens, Old West End Festival, Portage Quarry, Rachel Richardson, Rob Ludeman, Sandpiper, Snook's Dream Cars, Steve Steel, The Beirut, Toledo, Toledo Botanical Garden, Toledo Museum of Art, Toledo Symphony Orchestra, Toledo Zoo, Toledo-Lucas County Public Library, Tony Packo's, UT football, Warehouse District, Wildwood Preserve, Wind turbines, Wintergarden


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"For the past few years Jamie and Alex have been strong leaders for Texas Zoom Gold, an Elite College Showcase team, they dominate the game in every area and I anticipate they will continue that in helping the Paris Lady Dragons. Paris Junior College has a great softball program and I am happy for them." – David Thompson, Head Coach Texas Zoom Gold
The Antlers Lady Cats traveled to Savanna last Tuesday and lost a heart breaker in the final seconds. The Lady Cats dominated the first half of the game and took a comfortable 10 point lead in at half, 26 to 16. However, the Lady Cats struggled in the second half, scoring only 10 points, to Savanna's 23 points. The score was tied with 4 seconds remaining in the game and Savanna called a time out right before senior, Megan Brame stole a Savanna pass, which the officials waived off.
Tanner Brown from Antlers High School made the Tushka All Tournament Team.
Brandon Slocum from Moyers High School made the Tushka All Tournament Team.
Last week our Bearcats traveled to Tushka to play in the Ameristate Invitational Tournament. In the first round they were paired against the Stringtown Tigers, whose record coming into the tournament was 2-6. Tip-off was won by Sr. Bryce Martin, who even though he suffered an accidental blow to the nose, which shattered the bones, he still played the rest of the game, and was the leading scorer for the game with 24 points. Sr. Harlan House was the biggest contributor to the first half of the game with 10 points, 1 rebound and 1 assist. Jr.
The Antlers Lady Cats traveled to Tushka for the Ameristate Basketball Tournament this last weekend. The Lady Cats faced three opponents to come away with the championship trophy and All Tournament Team honors. The Lady Cat's first opponent was the Moyers Lady Tigers.
The Antlers Lady Cats traveled to Rattan to take on the Lady Rams last Thursday. The gym was packed to capacity, with standing room only.
At the end of the first period, the score was tied at 2-2. Both teams played great defense and at the end of the second period, the score was still tight with the Lady Cats leading by only 2, with a score of 15 to 13.
The Antlers Lady Cats traveled to Talihina for the Choctaw Nation Invitational Basketball Tournament this last weekend. The Lady Cats faced three tough opponents to come away with the championship trophy and All Tournament Team honors. The Lady Cat's first opponent was The Sallisaw Black Diamonds. The Lady Cats prevailed over the Lady Diamonds with a final score of 51 to 40, advancing them to the semi final game.
Lake of the Arbuckles: December 22. Elevation 5 1/4 ft. below normal, water 53 and clear to stained in upper arms. Algae bloom on surface. Crappie slow on docks, brushpiles in 25+ ft. water, good using white or chartreuce jigs and minnows. Sand bass have moved to the knolls and dropoofs in midlake out from dam, 3/4 oz. CC spoon near drops. Bass fishing can be good using crankbaits, jerkbaits and dropshot jigs, Alabama rigs also working. Report submitted by Jack Melton.

subset: commoncrawl


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Archbishop Nienstedt under investigation: a brief update.
Grant Gallicho July 15, 2014 - 6:14am
Two weeks ago, I reported that for the past several months, Archbishop John Nienstedt of St. Paul and Minneapolis has been under investigation for "multiple allegations" of inappropriate sexual conduct with seminarians, priests, and other adult men, according to those who were interviewed by the law firm conducting the inquiry. A couple of days after I posted that story, auxiliary Bishop Lee Piché--who is overseeing the investigation--sent an e-mail to the priests of the archdiocese, explaining that the timing of the release of that news was "not of my choosing," and that "whatever facts you will need to know about the investigation will be made known to you at the appropriate time." The bishop also told Twin Cities priests that he "was instructed by the firm conducting the investigation that the interviews must be carried out under the strictest confidence for the sake of the integrity of the investigation itself." Once the firm's report is complete, he wrote, "there will need to be some time to make an evaluation of those facts as to their credibility and import."
That raises several questions, which I posed to the archdiocese last week: Has Nienstedt been interviewed by the investigating law firm (hired by the archdiocese itself)? How is that firm being paid, and how much does it cost? When will the investigation conclude? Will the firm's final report be made public? And will the archdiocese send an unedited version of that report to the apostolic nuncio once it's completed?
In a written reply, Archbishop Nienstedt said that he did meet with the investigators, and that he "answered their questions to the best of my ability."
Later, Piché responded with another written statement. He explained that the archdiocese is paying for the investigation, but he did not tell me how much it costs. He also said that he did not know when the investigation will conclude. I asked whether the archdiocese will use the law firm's report to create another document that it will then share with Twin Cities priests, or whether it will share the whole report as it was originally written? I also asked whether the report will be made public, or whether the archdiocese will release to the public certain "need to know" facts from the investigation? "It's premature to answer these questions," the bishop replied.
As for the question of whether the papal nuncio will receive the report in its entirety, unedited, Piché wrote: "The nuncio will receive a complete report."
Commenting Guidelines
Related story and 1-hour audio reporting on cover-ups of Archbishops Roche, Flynn and Nienstadt on clerical abuse of children in Minn. diocese. I found it pretty devastating. minnesotapublicradio.org
Had enough, fellow sheeple?
Sometimes a public figure is just so badly damaged he loses his ability to serve effectively. I would argue that fairly or unfairly, that is the position in which the Archbishop now finds himself. He cannot any longer be an effective spokesman, teacher of leader of the Church in Minneapolis. In such situations, it is best to go away. I fully understand that it can be difficult to make such a decision, but if you put the good of the whole above your ego, that is what you will do. A new archbishop, with a new outlook and less baggage would be a gift to the people of the Archdiocese of minneapolis.
I would argue that fairly or unfairly,...
Jim, I understand what you are saying but something seems inherently wrong with the unfairly part. Essentially "throwing away" or "sacrificing" the Archbishop unfairly seems the antithesis of supporting the dignity of the human person. In my work people were fired all the time, many times for errors of the organization rather than the individual fired. While I can see that sometimes one must leave for the good of those remaining, it seems that if one is unfairly accused, perhaps the best course of action is to stay. Its a concrete way for the group to support the human dignity of the individual.
There may be a simple answer to one of Grant's questions: "Will the [investigating law] firm's final report be made public." The answer will be, no it will not be made public, if the law firm is conducting an internal investigation based on the attorney-client privilege recognized by the Supreme Court in Upjohn Co. v. United States, 449 U.S. 383 (1981).
there is a difference between the role of an Archbishop and that of say the Junior assistant accountant for parishes in western Minnesota. At some point, and I would argue that point has long been reached, the Archbishop can no longer effectively function as a teacher and leader. Even if things he is being accused of are not true, his credibility is no longer intact. That is very different from the position of some staff member in a corporation or my Junior accountant. That person is not called upon to present the Church's position on a whole host of public issues, not to be a prime teacher for the Archdiocese. If he cannot effectively serve in those roles, he becomes at best a figurehead, at worst he is serving out his time. From what I've followed of the Archbishop Neistadt situation, he is at least guilty of poor judgement. I doubt his credibility will ever again rise to the level necessary to effectively carry out his duties. I think in your example, you might agree that it wouldn't be such a bad thing if the head of the organization, who was responsible for the bad decisions, announced he was resigning as a result of such decisions.
Is there still any doubt among Catholics that clericalism and its twin brother patriarchy are as good examples of corporate evil as we will ever see?
To answer my own question: The almost complete corruption of the Catholic priesthood has rendered the clerics and hierarchs hopelessly alienated and dangerously irrelevant from the very people they are supposed to serve - according to their own twisted mythology.
Nienstedt is only the most recent prima facie evidence of the malignancy that corrupts the Catholic priesthood - and the infection is only spreading expotentially as more hierarchs age and die-off.
[Case in point: Our local Oakland Bishop Michael Barber - a relatively "young" 60 y.o. Jesuit - has completely mucked-up his recent arrival on scene in just his first year in office with mindless displays of narcissistic, condescending and autocratic leadership. Whatever his motivation, Barber comes across as an ambitious political hack very much in a hurry to climb the clerical ladder. Strange that Barber seems so at odds with the spirit of his fellow Jesuit Papa Francesco?]
Either we Catholics completely reform and renew the way we do priesthood from parish to pope, or Catholicism itself [not Christianity, necessarily] is fated for extinction perhaps before the end of this century.
As I understand it, the prvilege lies with the client, who may waive it. Apparently the client is the Diocese, so it is not obvious how, or by whom, a decision to waive privilege would be made. But at least conceptually, the full report could become public legitimately?
Grant Gallicho: If you have occasion to communicate with the Archdiocese again, would you please ask if they would simply make the contract between the Archdiocese and the law firm public? Without knowing what possible parameters might have been set to the investigation and whether funding for the investigation is such to make genuine investigation probable, there is simply no way that we will really be able to interpret their findings, whatever they may be. Such law firms can play either of two roles in situations like this: (1) A genuine effort to get to the bottom of things; or (2) mounting a public relations effort for a celebrity who's gotten into a bit of a jam, and making a simulacra of an investigation as part of that effort.
Refusal to provide any real information about how Greene Espel has been tasked makes one of those roles seem far more likely than the other.
However this turns out for Nienstedt, Bishop Piche may well have a bright ecclesiastical career ahead of him. He seems to be learning to weasel well.
Bruce - you might want to spend the next hour carefully reading this affidavit:
After reading this, if you still want to defend Neinstedt, please go for it but don't boar us here with your parsing and inannities.
Makes one think of when Gov. Keating was hired by the bishops after 2002 when they rejecting his findings and virtually fired him. He bluntly commented that they were "like the Mafia."
It is refreshing that Grant is putting the Archdiocese on notice that a phony report will not be acceptable. Hopefully this kind of expected accountability will spread to all areas of the church.
Thank you for alerting me to Hasselberg's affidavit. Shocking! What I find very interesting is that there are incidents of abuse of women included. I daresy that is not so common in reports of clergy sexual abuse.
Also, I taught in a Catholic school a few years ago. We were required to have background checks and participate in the VIRTUS training, a rather intense program alerting us to abuse of minors. (I found it to be very well done.) What surprises me is that in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, it was required for clergy, although it appears as though it was not implemented. (See page 19 of the Affidavit.) To the best of my knwoledge no priests in the diocese where I taught were required to have background checks and participate in the VIRTUS training.
Bill deHaas,
Thanks for the link. As I read it, this woman was unhappy with the Archdiocese within months of her employment in 2004. But sure, let's hang the Archbishop anyway.
Btw, I'll assume that the word you were meant to type was "bore" and not the word that means a male pig.
Jim Dunn,
You dont know the status of the people in the organization I was referenced. I can assure you they werent some "staff member ... or my Junior Accountant". While all you say about the Archbishop and his ability to perform his duties has merit, we need to respect his human dignity as well and be careful to not just throw him away.
Amen Jim! Only sheeple would give their money to an institution who uses the money to protect rapists.
Of course, dismiss actual facts.
You appear to have confused her career postions, dates, etc. in order to reinforce your narrative.
Dr. Jennifer Haselberger is a canon lawyer who received her licentiate degree in canon law from the Catholic University of Leuven, Belgium, in 2004. She also has a Doctorate in Philosophy from the University of London, England, She is a member of the Canon Law Society of America and served on the Resolutions Committee of that Society. She has practiced as a canon lawyer in the United States and internationally.
Following the completion of her academic work, Dr. Haselberger returned to the United States and accepted a position as Judge on the Metropolitan Tribunal of the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis. She later became Director of the Tribunal of the Diocese of Crookston as well as Director of the Diocesan Safe Environment Program. After serving as the Bishop's Delegate for Canonical Affairs in the Diocese of Fargo, Dr. Haselberger returned to the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis to serve as Chancellor for Canonical Affairs, a position she held until establishing Canonical Consultation and Services, LLC.
In addition to her ecclesiastical appointments, Dr. Haselberger has provided consultation and advice to bishops, Catholic institutions and organizations, and religious orders. She has served on independent review boards and is a noted speaker on issues relating to canon law and the Catholic Church.
Bruce, I am totally blown away by your saying that you are concerned for John's dignity! Do you really feel that he is wrongly accused after all that has come out? He should be fired just by the way he is about dealing with this, making him a poor manager. I know someone who was raped by a priest - what about the dignity of the childen that were raped by priests?? What about moving the priests around so they could rape more children?? This is the problem with the Catholic church; this whole feeling that priests are the victims and that they don't answer to the real law (not Canon Law). I pray that John, Kevin and his henchmen to be sued, lose their jobs, and go to jail!
Great work, and now there are the questions about the contract between the law firm and the archdiocese. The legal caveats mentioned above are on target. How about asking for a copy of the contract and see what happens? You and the legal beagles here could decipher the text.
@Jim Englert: Haven't we all seen the simulacra that masquerade as investigations, versus the genuine article? There's a wonderful New Yorker cartoon showing someone before St. Peter at the pearly gate, where the recently deceased exclaims, "Those aren't lies! That was spin."
@Mark Logsdon: if the diocese holds the privilege, I cannot imagine a full public release (of the original report, not excerpts or a summary) unless there is a whitewash or full exoneration, except for a detail or two. That is why the most reliable investigations are done by independent law enforcement. Who pays is key.
Hermeneutic of suspicion is well warranted, based on experience.
In Ireland we lost some of our best bishops because of this kind of media frenzy, and on the basis of utterly groundless allegations. People like Jim Jenkins who believe that ALL bishops and priests are corrupt will never stop calling for clerical heads, like some latter-day Madame Lafarge.
Carolyn Disco,
I quite agree that release of the privilege by the Diocese seems very unlikely. Their lawyers would have a cow, as it were. But it is not impossible as a matte of law. Suppose Pope Francis said, Right - that's it New broom. Fr Sean, we thank you for your work in Boston (and so many other places). We need you to step aside on that and your other duties, move to Minneapolis, and sort this out. Do whatever it is that is neeed to restore to the Faithful belief in the honesty and goodness of our Church. Do not concer yourself with monetary costs; this is God's work and we will attend to such concerns.
So Fr. Sean causes the privilege to be waived, and we see the contract, the report, its drafts, and all its attachments.
To dream ...
Mark L
Bill deHaas
paragraph 9 page 4 "I determined that I would quit my employment with the archdiocese..."
That was within a few months of her starting her position. What fact am I confusing?
Bruce, I am totally blown away by your saying that you are concerned for John's dignity!
Of course I am. I am concerned each individual's dignity. Arent you?
I dont think anyone should be fired because they did there job poorly in the past. The real question is "are the able and willing and have the right conditions to do it well in the future?" If not, is it because they are unable? or unwilling? then perhaps firing is correct. If its because of conditions, then perhaps not.
If Archbishop Nienstedt resigned, it would be his own decision, arrived at in a good discernment, presumably. Other bishops have served with honor in parishes and in teaching roles in dioceses. The man may continue as a priest in good standing, and perhaps there should be a place for him to serve the Gospel, to rebuild trust and credibility as an individual and as a member of the college of bishops. That seems fair. But would he and other bishops find that acceptable?
Unless he is found to have committed crimes. In which case, what to do with a convicted criminal?
Let me express my appreciation to Grant for some good journalism.
It's not difficult to see the potential conflict of interest when a diocese's authorities audit themselves. I suppose we give Archbishop Nienstedt some credit for assigning responsibility to a different bishop (albeit one who, in some way, shape or form, is responsible to Nienstedt), and for bringing in an outside firm to conduct the audit.
There has been some discussion above of attorney-client privilege. Do we subtract some credit from Archbishop Nienstedt for assigning the audit to a firm that would be bound by attorney-client privilege? Is it possible to hire a law firm to do something (like conduct an audit) that isn't properly considered legal work, in which case attorney-client privilege wouldn't be present? But I suppose that the archdiocese would insist on non-disclosure from *any* outside firm brought in to conduct the audit, whether or not it's a law firm. Ultimately, the archdiocese, responsible to Nienstedt, "owns" the results of the audit and will be in control of what is communicated and how it's communicated.
If this were a US government executive-branch scandal rather than a diocesan scandal, the federal government's checks and balances would come into play: Congress could hold hearings, subpoena documents and potentially appoint an independent counsel. But church governance lacks those particular checks and balances.
If we ask the question, "If it's not appropriate for the archdioceses to self-audit, then for whom is it appropriate?", right now there isn't a ready answer. It seems to me that the possibility of a conflict of interest would be considerably lessened if the USCCB had a mechanism for auditing a bishop. In other words, instead of having a St. Paul/Minneapolis auxiliary conduct the audit, bring in a bishop from some other diocese. There is precedent for the USCCB to audit dioceses, as this already happens to ensure compliance with the Dallas charter and norms. But as far as I know, there is no mechanism in place for the USCCB to audit a bishop who is accused of behavior that falls outside of the provisions of the child-safety charter and norms. Presumably, the USCCB could establish these mechanisms. Would it?
The Holy See also could audit a diocesan bishop. I don't know what specific mechanisms are in place for this to happen, but certainly Rome has investigated bishops in the past, so it wouldn't be starting from scratch. Would a Roman audit be preferable to a national conference audit? Under Francis' papacy, I would have some trust.
It would be tempting for some folks to respond, "What about the people of the archdiocese?" But there is no formal structure or mechanism for this to occur.
@ JOL: "Best bishops"??? Really? "Utterly groundless allegations"??? Really?
I don't "believe that ALL bishops and priests" are personally corrupt. But they are ALL very successful politicians in the world's oldest all-male feudal oligarchy that is rotten and corrupt to the core.
I'm not interested in "calling for clerical heads" because that would only replace them with other clerical heads, equally corrupt.
The only way out of the mess that "ALL bishops and priests" have brought us to is:
I don't know that I have a problem with attorney-client priviledge aspects of the "audit" or whatever you want to call it. I think that is pretty standard practice with any of these things. You don't, after all, want your outside counsel/auditor or whatever going public with some report or finding before he tells you about it. That's fairly standard procedure now adays I think. My view is that the Archbishop's credibility is already in shambles and I wouldn't believe him if he told me the grass was green without checking it out myself. When that's the case, it is time to go.
I appologize for the double post. I received a reprimand from Commonweal's Comment bot, questioning my dignity, stating that I must be a human not a Spamer or something to that effect, in white letters on red background. Very intimidating. It also said that if I was a human person I could resubmit the post. I did as instructed and saw two entries. That was the very first time my dignity has been questioned by a machine. A brave new world this internet is.
Philip - many uf us have been similarly reprimanded. It's practically a badge of honor.
To be honest, if I were to meet a random bishop, I would it consider it more likely than not that he had acted negligently with respect to protecting children from sexual abuse. Even after 2002, we still uncover bishops failing to act correctly.
Even if it were a much smaller percentage like 10%, I wouldn't trust any system that relies on the bishop doing the right thing. That 10% could still put a lot of children at risk.
That was the very first time my dignity has been questioned by a machine.
Never had a colonoscopy then, I guess.
Hey, Bruce - yep, saw that line and it referred to her first position with the archdiocese. She then went to Fargo diocese for a number of years and was then hired back as chancellor. You, again, are trying to be slick and obfuscate the facts.
She also explained her thought - rather forthright and why she did not act on that thought. Guess you never worked for the church and were confronted with these types of ethical lapses - happens all too often in church work.
JOL - your tiresome comparison and mantra about the Irish bishops is way off base.
First, your Irish opinion is just that - an opinion that not many in Ireland, the world, etc. share.
Second, to your point, this affadavit provides more details than ever surfaced about any Irish bishop - to compare simplistically and then conclude that a witch hunt has started is irresponsible (but typical for you).
Third - is this a witch hunt or reasonable, responsible folks who are seeing more and more facts (not subversion, not archdiocesan dodges, propoganda, etc.)
Fourth - Nienstedt is merely the third successive bishop who has failed to protect children in the archdiocese? What is your solution beyond the constant (father/bishop, etc. have to be given the benefit of the doubt...geez, appears that that has been a 30 year pattern)
What is truly surprising is that the local district attorney still will not set up an investigation? What goes?
Bruce, I guess I am not concerned about Nienstedt's dignity because I consider his actions to be so incredibly vile and him to be incredibly arrogant about it. This sort of action doesn't warrant a "second chance" as you suggest. How was the same abuse handled at Penn State? How was Joe Paterno's dignity and legacy handled? The same thing needs to happen to Nienstedt, Mahoney, Flynn, Finn and the list goes on.
Bill, it isn't surprising that the DA won't set up to an investigation to me because he's probably been paid off. This Archdiocese has a big wallet and so it goes.
We must note that we see in today's NY Times that Laurie Goodstein et al gave credit to Commonweal for uncovering the latest about Nienstadt. Shows that the Catholic conscience is much more aware than it was in 2002. .
JOL, Yes, run to the media as the reason that the priests raped children and why the bishops continued to cover it up. Poor poor priests and bishops as victims!! Even the Irish Government closed their embassy to the Vatican because the abuse got so bad: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/04/ireland-closes-embassy-to-vatican_n_1076528.html. Your rabid defense of the bishops makes me realize that you, like them, think it is ok to rape children and cover it up rather than make those who are accountable step down or go to prison. Alll of this could have prevented by turning priests in to the police which is something the church refuses to do.
Theodore Anderson, if you care to stand over your allegation in regard to one of Ireland's finest bishops, Donal Murray, please be informed that the allegations have long been quashed. You exercises in sneering irony are not a good substitute for calm and considered examination of the facts. In point of fact, no Irish bishop has ever thought that "it is ok to rape children" as you "rabidly" allege. Is this your idea of rational debate?
The DA has been paid off by the archdiocese? This sort of conspiracy theory is widely bruited by SNAP, but surely if the crimes of clergy and bishops were as egregious and evident as SNAP imagines, the police would have handled the criminals just as they handle lay offenders. The US is not some sort of Catholic theocracy as far as I know.
"Bruce, I guess I AM NOT CONCERNED ABOUT Nienstedt's DIGNITY because I consider his actions (UNSPECIFIED) to be so incredibly vile (UNPROVEN) and him to be incredibly arrogant about it (PRESUMABLY IN THAT HE IS DENYING THE ALLEGATIONS THAT HE HAS ASKED TO HAVE INVESTIGATE?)
" How was the same abuse (NOT THE SAME, AND PROVEN IN THAT CASE, NOT MERELY ALLEGED) handled at Penn State? How was Joe Paterno's dignity and legacy handled? (HE WAS GIVEN THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY) The same thing needs to happen to Nienstedt, Mahoney, Flynn, Finn and the list goes on."
Sorry, but this is the language of a lynch-mob.
Jim Jenkins you have no interest whatever in studying the facts about Irish bishops. You might have a look at this for starters: http://www.irishsalem.com/individuals/accused/bishop-donal-murray/bishop...
The caps aren't really impressive.
I think most of us laypeople just want honesty and transpency. The legal hardline has cost us more than direct and sincere apologies would have accomplished.
It is galling, I am sure, for a prelate to go, hat in hand, and say "I'm sorry." But this kind of sacrifice is required. When omitted, and when offenses continue, people get angry.
There are serious questions about Archbishop Nienstedt's honesty. I hope he realizes this, and addresses them in a moral spirit.
I just had a couple of comments. First, I am not sure about all of the people that are defending Nienstedt. If he truly did this, then what is to defend? To defend him is to defend his actions.Second, I have concluded that all of this abuse and cover-ups across the nation and world is on purpose. The church couldn't possibly have that many priests that have raped so many children and then go to the length it does to protect them by accident. Logic tells me it is on purpose and we are seeing them fight to keep this practice. If I am wrong, then you would have seen priests being fired and handed over to the police in droves.
"facts about Irish bishops" - Now there is a really provocative idea!
While they certainly need no help from me because the Irish people have long since delivered a stinging verdict and a damning judgement of Irish hierarchs: In overwhelming numbers the Irish people have voted with their feet. These days, hardly any more Irish sheeple left in the pews.
And, the hierarchs certainly have no one to blame but themselves.
Maybe JOL if you feel so pained for your brother Irish priests and bishops, you should go home to join them in the clerical cortege along to the dung heap of history. Perhaps, you could whistle pass the graveyard for them?
Jim Jenkins, there has been a decline in church attendance in Ireland beginning long before the sex abuse scandals, and the idea that it correlates with righteous anger against the bishops accused of negligence on that front would be pretty hard to substantiate. There has been an equal decline in US Catholic membership. Lots of people are delighted at this weakening of a church that they see as a "cult". You seem to believe in the Church as the people of God ("Let the people decide") so you should not celebrate this crisis. To say that the Irish clergy are headed for the dung heap of history can easily be universalized to all clergy, as I think you do elsewhere. But the next step is to say that all Catholics and the Church as such are headed for that dung hill. What have you got to replace them?
My point was only that Bp Donal Murray is an excellent man, priest, and theologian, and that having his head on a platter has in no way strengthened or improved the Irish church.
Meanwhile another bout of witch-huntery seems to be in the offing: http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2014/07/acp-statement-on-appo...
This article is dripping and drooling with pharisaic contempt -- http://theweek.com/article/index/264939/the-greatest-threat-to-tradition...
The trouble with Damon Linker is that he believes the doctrine of the Holiness of the Church must entail that Catholics are sexless and sinless, otherwise they must be hypocrites (and yes, he does tend to equate sex and sin); a fortiori ministers of the Gospel who do not meet a rigorist interpretation of official doctrines are to be given no leeway as ordinary, human, fallible, sexual mortals. Linker seems thrilled that the internet can expose everyone's dirty linen in public at the click of a button -- this of course includes his own. At the moment church-basher believe themselves to be beyond the reach of scandal, since they regard as peccadillos for themselves the very actions that they denounce as brazen hypocrisy in others -- but the boot can easily suddenly be on the other foot, as we see in the embarrassments inflicted on a very prominent Catholic columnist who sailed under the banner of gay marriage while sniffing at alleged clerical corruption, inviting accusations of hypocrisy when the gap between his wild sexual behavior and his public image came to light. There was wisdom in the old proverb, "people in glass houses cannot throw stones". The internet may make the whole world a village where everyone knows everything about everyone else. In the past villagers were well able to handle these "scandals" and we may have to relearn their wisdom anew.


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Customer Reviews Summary
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I ordered this basket as a thank you gift from a group of parents for a teacher. I had it delivered to my house so we could give it to her in person. I...Read complete review
I ordered this basket as a thank you gift from a group of parents for a teacher. I had it delivered to my house so we could give it to her in person. I was so excited when I opened the box and saw this gorgeous basket. All the parents who contributed were thrilled. And, best of all, the teacher LOVED it!
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Starbucks - Not So Spectacular
Arrived in a timely manner, but I was dissappointed in the fact that the picture and packaging misrepresents what is actually in the box (2 rasberry chocolate cookies). Needed more for the money...Read complete review
Arrived in a timely manner, but I was dissappointed in the fact that the picture and packaging misrepresents what is actually in the box (2 rasberry chocolate cookies). Needed more for the money and the brand. I was disheartened that the ceramic mugs were not dishwasher or microwave safe. In this day and age it should be a given.Gave most of the stuff away at work. Not a fan!
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FantasticGift for my Son and Daughter in Law
By Dean
from Woodbury MN
Comments about Starbucks Spectacular:
The basket arrived on time as expected. Son and Daughter loved the Starbucks coffee and mugs especially but loved the presentation and the quality of the ingredients as well. Well done. I will continue to use you in the future as I have in the past.
Bottom Line Yes, I would recommend this to a friend
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excellent gift great price arrived when promised
By len
from limerick ireland
my son loved ityesn/a
Client Loved It!
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See all my reviews
I knew my client loved Starbucks, so this was the perfect thank you.
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The best thing about sending these baskets is the response I get from the recipients. I sent this as an anniversary gift to friends who love coffee and don't often treat themselves. They think I spent a ton of money! Best thing? All the work is done for me! YOU make me look GOOD!!
My recipient loved it
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Loved the coffee cup size
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No worries with this company. Placing your order is easy and you can depend on the gift to arrive on time. My family loved the Starbucks basket that I had sent this year. The selection just gets better and better.
Great gift for Starbucks lovers
By CAT
from Yonkers, NY
Product did arrive on time and the recipient enjoyed it very much.
(4 of 4 customers found this review helpful)
By 1LovelyLaura
from Salem, OR
Bottom Line No, I would not recommend this to a friend
What to get parents that have everything
By Karin
from Dallas, TX
I love sending baskets from Wine Country. I always find several baskets and have to choose. This basket worked out great for my parents anniversary as it can be hard to find something they both like. My Mom left it on the counter for days because "it was so pretty". She really likes the cups and she will use the basket around the house. The basket actually arrived early.


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I wonder how long that would take to charge.
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Reader comments
Waka Waka Power solar charger seeks Kickstarter funding, charge your iPhone with just the power of the sun
Hey Stephen: in 6 hrs in New York (app. 50 degrees latitude) battery will be 75% full. So it will be totally full in a whole day.


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Crowd welcomes injured student
SOUTH POINT —It's been a long six months for Daniel Hughes and his family. But Daniel, his father David Hughes, his mother Kelley Hughes and his three younger siblings will finally spend a weekend together at home — and a crowd of more than 100 was on hand at South Point High School on Thursday afternoon to welcome them.
In early September, Daniel Hughes was in the midst of his first month of classes as a freshman at Ohio State University. He was riding his bike to class on Sept. 5 when he was hit by a dump truck near the entrance of a construction site on campus. The 2012 South Point graduate lost his leg and suffered severe damage to his pelvis.
Since then, he's remained in Columbus undergoing surgeries, treatment and physical therapy. He was supposed to be home at Christmas, but an infection left him hospitalized. Now the Hughes family has finally gotten the green light to come home for a few days.
"It was a nice drive home," said David Hughes, his father. "We're going to take it easy and go to church."
First, though, a lot of people wanted to give Daniel Hughes hugs and welcome him home. They all gathered at the top of the entrance to the high school, where David Hughes said the family had been told to stop to see just a few of Daniel Hughes' high school friends. Instead, they were greeted by a throng of friends and family members.
"It's unbelievable," Daniel Hughes said. "Just a general thank-you for all the support and prayers. All that means so much to me."
People held up signs, some wore t-shirts and a first-grade student at South Point Elementary delivered a basket of Valentines made by each of the kids in the class.
Also greeting him were close friends Stephanie Hensley, Hannah Hinkle and Trish Van Steenberg. They all went to high school with Daniel Hughes and had been to Columbus a few times to visit him. They were there Wednesday helping him get ready to come home.
"It feels amazing (to have him home)," Hensley said, with tears welling up in her eyes.
David Hughes said they have some things to catch up on Friday, noting he has spent every night since the accident in Columbus. The last time he was home, he said, was to vote in November.
Kelley Hughes said they developed a great extended church family in Columbus, but they are ready to have all four children together at home under one roof. How will they celebrate? By sharing a Giovanni's pizza, something Daniel Hughes said he will enjoy very much.
In January, the family filed a lawsuit against Ohio State, the driver of the dump truck and 10 contractors hired by the university. The action alleges each failed to keep students safe, according to The Columbus Dispatch.
Despite the lawsuit, Daniel Hughes said he still loves Ohio State and is contemplating a return to school at some point in the future to continue his pursuit of a degree in chemical engineering.
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JabcatQuoteTo all, for further exploration/insight, revelation. Something hit me a few minutes ago that I believe is a crucial piece of this. We've talked about names being written in the Book before the foundation of the world. Get this; when was Jesus the Lamb slain? I have to run, but will read tomorrow, I'm curious when do you think the Lamb was slain?
To all, for further exploration/insight, revelation. Something hit me a few minutes ago that I believe is a crucial piece of this. We've talked about names being written in the Book before the foundation of the world. Get this; when was Jesus the Lamb slain?
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." That would be on or just before Gen 1:1
Before the world began= pro chronos aionios
QuoteBefore the world began= pro chronos aioniosBefore enternity began?
PS I was taught the wedding dinner happens after the groom comes for his bride. He takes his bride to the home he has prepared, and the guests have the wedding dinner while the groom is in the marital chamber with his bride consummating the marriage--the guests are outside making merry to celebrate the wedding.
During the seven days of the wedding festivities, which were sometimes called "the seven days of the huppah," the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber
BoL is that wedding book
There are different groups being spoken of in the Bible.Are they all the same people? Maybe this is where the confusion lies.To list some of the groups:The electThe sonsThe brideThe guestsThe friends of the groomThe savedJesus tells different parables to describe these different groupsPaul fills in some more of the details because Jesus himself does not go into much detail past the end of this age.This parable describes the bride:1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. --Mat 25Here John the Baptist calls himself the friend of the groom:29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease.--John 3Look here what the apostle Paul says of his role: 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. --2 Cor 11And Abraham:James 2:23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
. . .could we just be getting hung up on linguistics?
Another little thing I think is of importance but am totally unable to apply...The bride is veiled all the time. Nobody really knows who she is. But after the seven days are over she removes the veil in front of all guests and they finally see the bride.Removing a veil = unveiling = Revelation


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There's a Japanese proverb that says fall seven times and stand up eight.
Dogwood Stable is still chasing its elusive first Kentucky Derby victory, but the Aiken-based Thoroughbred racing stable will have its eighth starter going postward next Saturday in the 139th edition of the Run for the Roses.
Palace Malice breezed a half-mile Saturday morning in 47.20, working in company with Arkansas Derby winner Overanalyze, two of the five Derby entries conditioned by five-time Eclipse Award winning trainer Todd Pletcher.
The multiple graded stakes placed colt was ridden over the surface at Churchill Downs by Hall of Fame jockey Mike Smith, who has the riding assignment on Palace Malice in the Derby.
"He did it easy," said W. Cothran Campbell, Dogwood Stable president, in a phone interview on Saturday. "Mike said he couldn't pull him up. He jogged back to the barn and couldn't hold him. He was full of energy. He may not win the Derby, but he's damn sure ready to run, and I love the way he's coming into it."
Palace Malice, whose pedigree suggests he should have no problem getting the 1 ¼-mile distance, seems to possess a number of attributes one would want in a racehorse. The bay colt has demonstrated athleticism, good energy while training, and has showcased his talent in his previous starts. The colt will be celebrating his third birthday, two days before the Kentucky Derby, having been foaled on May 2, 2010. When Campbell first saw Palace Malice at the Keeneland 2012 April Two-Year-Olds in Training Sale, he was impressed with how easily the horse worked an eighth-of-a-mile, breezing in 10.20 seconds.
"He's not the kind of horse who's a nifty speed ball," said Campbell. "The rider wasn't whipping along. He's a big rangy colt. I loved the way he looked, and I was surprised to get him for $200,000. He's not a flashy colt, but he's a big, handsome, solid, bay colt."
Dogwood Stable is no stranger to the first jewel of Thoroughbred racing's Triple Crown, having finished second with Summer Squall in 1990; third in 2000 with Impeachment; and fourth with Limehouse in 2004. In fact, it was Summer Squall who gave Dogwood Stable its first Classic victory, winning the Preakness in 1990.
"I probably have more Derbies behind me then I have in front of me," said Campbell.
Palace Malice is a different type of runner than Summer Squall, said Campbell.
"Summer Squall had a lot of fire," said Campbell. "He was a tougher horse to handle, and more spirited. Summer Squall was a lighter horse, who could sprint, had two or three moves, and was able to shift gears. Palace Malice is workman-like. He's very confident. When he makes his move, he wants to keep going. However, like Summer Squall, Palace Malice does what he's asked to do."
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|96 posts found
Novice Member
Joined: 7/16/11
GW2 events are very incredibly new and innovative and the developers should get a round of applause every morning on arrival at work.
There, you can stop hyperventilating into a paper bag now.
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Novice Member
Joined: 9/14/10
Facts do not require fiction for balance.
Originally posted by RefMinor
Thank you, thank you... I feel more relaxed now.
Personally... I don't care where they got their inspiration from, be it War, Tabula Rasa or the ladies room wall. They work incredibly well in the game now, giving the world a much more organic, living feeling than those based around a static questing system to me, and really that's all that matters. I enjoy them.
Novice Member
Joined: 10/12/12
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
What is a Tabula Rasa? Sounds like an STD.
I'm just kidding of course.
The fact that people count enjoyment by the hour now is hilarious to me as well. Do you guys have any idea how many actual days I have spread across 3 accounts on EQ1 since 1999/2000? Just checking my 5 most played characters I have 467 DAYS of real time played on them. Not counting bazaar mules while im offline and such either. I'd be pissed if only got a few hundred hours out of an MMO.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Originally posted by Aeonblades
I've 416 days of GW1 (10K hours) and I've seen people with over 20K hours in there.
I'll probably acquire similar amount of hours in GW2, albeit at a slower pace.
But 1K hours in any game is clearly hardcore gamer.
Currently playing: GW2
Novice Member
Joined: 10/12/12
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Cool, I'm hardcore again! :D I can't imagine playing any game as much as I have EQ because it came out when I was in high school and let's just say I had a lot more free time haha. That's an impressive amount of time on GW1 sir, I bet you pwned many faces.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Hard Core Member
Joined: 8/21/04
Logic be damned!
Every once in a while the events system in GW2 will surprise me.
Like yesterday, I'm randomly wandering around a level 40-50 zone or some such and stumble upon a frog-people village that's been overrun by the Krayt or whatever.
Slaughter a bunch of them, revive the frog people, they actually help me finish killing the Krayt and reviving the rest of the town.
Shortly after, call is placed to attack the Krayt village/tower thing and free slaves they took, so I go and do that.
Then I get to the top of this tower thing to find a Vista, and I now have a Champion Krayt queen standing between me and an inticing looking treasure chest.
So I solo the Champion down, takes a good 4-5 minutes of pretty difficult combat, had to use my Elite twice in the fight.
But I get her down, loot the chest, get a nice Rare lvl 80 Axe (TY Salvage for Globs!)
Do I know that eventually the Krayt will get themselves together and attack and reclaim the frog-people town?
Do I care? Nope. I've moved on.
But it was a good, fun chunk of content.
The real problem I think all along is that Anet didn't have the balls to up the challenge enough to counter the zergs of players roaming around during the launch and such.
Some of the stuff I did was quite tough, and it was because I was solo.
Though I did another chain in some Asura research camp that was a lot of fun and challenging and it was me and 2 other random players.
So TLDR -
Event system would be much, much better if it was better balanced to be more difficult and scale up properly to combat the large player zergs.
I've probably been lurking for way, way too long.
Advanced Member
Joined: 4/26/12
guild wars 2 events are not much better than all the newer ones in rift . You can go to ember isle and see about 10 different zone events just like guild wars 2 has that changes as the players do different things. Also Warhammer PQs actually gave rewards not just karma and coin so thats a huge plus in itself right there. I do not get the cult following of guild wars 2 , they did what every other game has done since 1999 and EQ , thats improve on the older games that people play and enjoy. Seriously they did nothing different but improve on somethings and make other things worse than older games, dissing every other older game out there by some blind fanbois here gets old when its full of just lies.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 5/01/12
Originally posted by ShakyMo
This. In GW2 all the events are the same with differents names and mobs, also, they are statics like the PQs on War, to be honest is just a quest with a timer. In GW2 you can just die and run back or not even that and you´ll get credits and xp anyway, i remember in war when you died and that was pretty much a fail.
GW2 DE are a copy and paste of warhammer PQs from a casual and cheap point of view.
Originally posted by BadSpock
That is clearly a thing that should be improved.
The problem lies in the fact that 1 player is much more powerful than the extra 1 or 2 mobs its added to conter that player.
Even 5 mobs per player wouldn't do much.
AoE, the fact it will be so easy to get combos (even if people aren't thinking about it), the rez power, the extra dodges, etc, mean that events will be best with 5-10 people.
I hope that going forward they add mobs with different abilities and tactics to counter more players, mobs with mortars and whatnot.
An event like the one in the below screenshot will always be not be that hard - even if somehow the champion decides to tag you, it is easy to just run around while the others kill it.
Currently playing: GW2
Joined: 12/09/03
FFXIV:ARR, Malboro Server, Scarlet Raven
Originally posted by Hrimnir
I have to assume you don't play the game then considering the part in red? One of the main features of DE's is dynamic scaling of mobs based off of contributing players. This is extremely evident when comparing DE's from launch day zerg rush to the current less zergy population.
Also I assume you haven't made it to the Harathi Highlands...that meta event is what you are describing in your second paragraph. Granted it doesn't give you bonus stages based off of speed but that meta event is a series of stages that push Centaur or Human control both ways across half the zone.
I had forgotten about this video that demonstrates what GW2 dynamic events can do at times. Some people who haven't played GW2 or only gave it a short glimpse might not understand how involved DE's can actually get.
Spotlight Poster
Joined: 12/15/05
Originally posted by Roxtarr
That video demonstrate how DEs works to it's fullest.
What many people miss is really stick around and see what happends next, that's why I've seen so many write on this boards that DE are just circles on the map and they run there do em and win win and then run off and don't see the whole circle why this DE began and it progressed and how it ended.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Hard Core Member
Joined: 10/02/11
The Critical Hit Pretzel!
Um... you know that a chain = Series of events that occur one after another.
Stages = Series of events that occur one after another.
You kind of discredited the notion with that line...
Really I can't see how you can 'claim' Rift fits War but yet you can't consider GW2 the same. Its not a bad thing and GW2 IS taking those elements from those games and expanding on it, which you can even claim War (which popularized it) took it from other games that formed in other methods such as live events in other games. If anything I feel that GW2 takes MORE from War then Rift actually does in terms of making things very stiff and restricted in where it is. The biggest thing they expand on it and make it a scripted event (yes scripted, lets not pretend the events feel very dynamic, they are very scripted which to their credit, would be difficult to really do otherwise) to 'enhance' in some ways how it works.
GW2 gets a lot of its ideas from other games. You know what? All games get elements from other games. Theres no reason to cry and try to defend a game for being original since you know what, there is no such thing. Even the very first video games took elements from elements in real life (pong from table tenis for example as a popular first one).
Originally posted by Purutzil
Exactly what in a piece of software isn't scripted?
Even random is a script.
But it has been said before the events chains take into account what happened before.
Number of farmers kidnapped, submarines that survived, etc, are "remembered" by the next event in the chain.
Could it be expanded to take more variables into account to choose the net event in a chain?
Sure and I hope so.
It will still be scripted.
Even a hypotetical random DE generator will be based on a script.
GW2 DEs expand on public events by adding story and present it visualy and real time action, by adding faillure that will spawn a different event, by remembering certain aspects of the previous DE when spawning the next event in the chain, by dynamicaly adjusting the event to accomodate varying number of players.
All those things are enough to call it an evolution, an innovation over previous systems.
And no doubt it changed the way people level and do quests, which is enough to be called revolutionary.
Now, evolution, innovation, revolutionary, don't mean what most people think it means,it doesn't mean unique, it doesn't mean new, it doesn't mean best ever,
Currently playing: GW2
Elite Member
Joined: 1/10/13
There... are... four... lights!
The biggest difference between Rift and GW2 is that the "rifts/invasions" are random mob spawners and the mobs are totally unrelated to the local setting. In other words, "rifts" do not tell any story. In GW2, not only the events are much more complex than random mob spawners, but they tell a story related to the local setting, the mobs aren't just generic uglies but are part of that story.
The evolution is HUGE.
Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA
Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW
Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
Advanced Member
Joined: 11/16/11
The problem with GW2 DEs imo is that they do a pretty bad job of telling you the story.
The stories are on the whole bad enough as it is (hardly ever do I feel emotionally involved in the story or my character) but how many times do you drop into an event as it has already started? Your goals are clear enough but the story is already lost on you.
How long do you wait after an event ended to see if something else is gonna happen? 1 minute? 2? 5? 10 minutes?
Lots or even most of the time nothing is gonna happen or the same DE you just finished. Not very exciting.
Or are you gonna wait and do the event/chain from the beginning again to learn the story? To me that sort of defeats the reason to have chains in the first place.
This might very well be a fundamental flaw in public events and especially chains/stages.
It keeps you busy but it doesnt tell a good story.
Novice Member
Joined: 10/05/03
Gaming should be about fun, not gender equality.
I dont see the big difference. Obviously there are differences but fundamentally the same. Chained, staged etc is not all that different. They are all quest type events which are happenning on a persistant map and anyone can join in the "fun" and they all have different stages culimating in a success or fail which resets it back to the first stage.
GW 2 is a bit more complex as they, allegedly have different branches but most are not like that and still linear. In any case they still go around in circles and always reset to the first level. For me the end experience was not that different from Rifts except they were more varied like WAR PQs but more mobile.
So essentially GW 2 events are like Rift mobile events with the variety of WAR PQs and branches rather than linear progression (in some cases).
Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/04/05
Originally posted by Yamota
The main reason why you can't tell the difference, is probably to do with you painting all of them with such a large brush. You're essentially viewing them all with such a generalized perspective, that none of the details are relevant to you (which is indeed what makes them each different from one another).
If you view ANY genre with such a broad perspective, then every single game within that genre will sound the same. Hell, you can trace questing events back to the very beginning of RPGs. The main problem w/ GW2's event system, is that people experience events in bite sized pieces. Very few people remember the whole chain. Most only remember 1 link of an event chain, because they are so used to hopping from one thing to another. For example, the norn snowman video posted earlier in this thread shows an event chain. It's actually 3-4 DEs linked together, determined by the player's actions.
- In regards to the OP, what he says is absolutely correct. I don't know why people have such a hard time with this concept, but most studios tend to develop ideas alongside one another. Yes, there's a lot of situations where a game blatantly copies another (SWTOR), but there are just as many cases where 2+ studios have similar ideas and approach them in slightly different ways.
Questing 'events' are one of those ideas. A lot of companies were toying with this idea when it first immerged. Mythic may have been the company to first release a game featuring this mechanic, but they weren't the first ones talking about it. Anet has been toying with the idea since before Utopia (and yes it was originally intended to be part of Utopia). Blizzard & Turbine started using Quest Phasing, which is a different mechanic born of the same idea.
The main reason why GW2, WAR, and Rift's event systems seem so similar, is because they are all approached from the idea of making quests more of a community-oriented experience. A key difference from other forms of questing, but not one you can reasonably credit to one specific company.
Originally posted by geremady
What you see as a problem i see as an advantage. Main culprit: CHOICE.
Events do tell a story, but it isnt shoved down your throat and youll probably have to poke around a bit to get the background. If you want to.
If you dont want to, you know what your goal is and can just "kill stuff" and be merry on your way.
OTOH, WoW and its clones conditioned people pretty hard and it will take a while to break that conditioning when game doesnt shove things down your throath (aka handholding).
Wasnt there a guy on Massively that complained game isnt "handholding enough" already?
Advanced Member
Joined: 5/31/06
Originally posted by Zorgo
It wasn't WAR however.
First game with DYNAMIC events was TABULA RASA with its system of DYNAMIC BATTLEFIELDS. WAR pretty much ripped it off without any major alternation, and its essentially the same system GW2 uses today.