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|101 posts found
Apprentice Member
Joined: 7/09/12
Originally posted by rhinok
I remember that, and didn't really give it much thought at the time either, it was well worth it though. Also competition was pretty scare for graphical MUD's so not subscribing would limit ones options for online gaming pretty significantly (compared to today).
With the current selection, I can't think of an MMO worth more than the rest, but maybe it will come .. oneday?
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Novice Member
Joined: 3/22/11
Well here's the thing... You pay a sub fee for several reason:
If my sub fee is going up, it would have to be shown that it wasn't just to pad a profit margin, and is actually caused by inflation in their production costs. Then I wouldn't mind.
Novice Member
Joined: 12/05/05
Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?
Originally posted by Roxtarr
This is what I think happened - 15.00 is what the market would bear in 1999, it is still what the market will bear.
But you are right, the value of that 15 bucks is less.
But here are some other variables to consider about why it hasn't changed.
1. The profit margin in 1999 was insanely high. The profit margin in 2012 is still extremely high - it just isn't insanely high anymore. I.E. The companies are still making money hand over fist; the profit loss due to inflation is negligible when countered with the the profit loss due to subs going away because of raising fees.
2. In 1999 an mmo was lucky to have 100k population. Games now start at about 250k and go up into the millions. I highly doubt that the staff and overhead has grown at the same exponential rate. Therefore, the increase in subs puts their profits so high compared to 1999 - they can afford to keep the price as such.
3. Cash shops. I think this speaks for itself.
But this I do know. As soon as someone decides it is time to raise fees; that it is time that the market will bear a higher price; and someone releases a game for 29.95 a month and is successful - it will never be 15 bucks again.
Novice Member
Joined: 12/05/05
Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?
Originally posted by Karteli
LOL I had forgotten that! (As you can see if you read my post above)
But my error speaks to my point:
EQ didn't have any idea what the market would bear as a sub fee. There first pricing was a 'guess'. Then they chose to raise it and found that the price raise didn't stop them from gaining subs.
Essentially, through trial and error, EQ figured out what the market would bear.
Elite Member
Joined: 1/06/05
If I'm paying a sub fee then I think it's worth a sub fee. If they increase and I still think I'm getting good service for the money then I'll continue.
Considering when the 15 or 15.99 per month came about I'm actually surprised that they haven't raised it.
But then again, that might be part of the reason we are getting more cash shops.
Novice Member
Joined: 11/04/10
i would quit
Novice Member
Joined: 11/04/10
Originally posted by Roxtarr
Yes but the product is old now and it isn't worth more money by that logic.Do computer hardware from 2008 cost as much as newly released ones?
Apprentice Member
Joined: 7/15/08
The way the genre is heading they had better consider decreasing not increasing.....ALot of us have moved away from the $15 a month p2p and have found less expensive options.....To me the sub games arent any better than the f2p games but then again I dont have to have that brand new shiny toy taht just came out either.
Advanced Member
Joined: 1/03/12
"I shall take your position into consideration"
For me, it would depend on the quality of the MMO. It is normal that prices of products fluctuate, it just isnt so usual with MMO subs I think.
To respond to the question...I would feel pissed off, but if the game was good, I would keep paying the sub...
Waiting for L2 EU Classic
Novice Member
Joined: 6/18/12
imo they need to bring down the monthly fee. People have less disposable income these days. A sub fee for a game is one of the first things I would do without when times are tough. I think many games would be doing much better if it cost less to play, also considering some don't have as much time to play therefor paying for mostly downtime. Sometimes I don't play games for a week or two, sometimes I crack out on games for a week or two straight. I think if they made subs a few bucks a month way more people would pay, play, and not really think about it.
Now if a company comes along with the next gen game that is so amazing and new that it takes the whole game by storm, maybe. Most mmos are still kind of dated game mechanics and far behind the depth of gameplay available in single player games while for the most part only really outdoing those games in amount of content. When an mmo comes along that can out due skyrim while still being massive then we can talk....
Elite Member
Joined: 1/13/10
Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms
Originally posted by Roxtarr
UO raised it in 2003 and I didn't have a problem with it. I think DAoC also raised the price while I was playing a couple years later. I had not problem there either. Both were reasonable increases.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
Apprentice Member
Joined: 1/16/09
Well that can really depend on the circumstances. I haven't had a steady MMO in several years, past a few months that is. My current game of choice is GW2 but I've been playing it very casually and I'm not entirely sure if I will last for more than a few months, regardless of the lack of monthly sub.
There are multiple factors for my lack of subbing to a game. Most of this is due to the fact that I haven't care for any MMO's currently out there enough to justify paying 15 bucks a month when I logged in maybe a few times a month. That doesn't mean that if an MMO really captured me that I still wouldn't part with my monthly sub money.
I would even consider a sub above the normal $15 fare. I also feel that if I'm paying more than 15 a month (lets say 18 to 20) there better not be a cash shop of any sort.
No fluff items, no boost items, these should all be obtainable as drops if your game is going to even include them in the first place, for that increased subscription price. I don't even want to see something like name changes or server transfers if you're going even attempt to hit me up past the "normal" 15 dollars a month. But that's just me.
Basically if the game interests me and the devs make it worth my while I have no issues with paying out more than the normal sub fee as it stands.
Novice Member
Joined: 9/09/05
Originally posted by fivoroth
This isn't personal, but there seems to be a common misonception that MMOs have always been $15 per month. I clearly remember something like $9.95 (I think, fuzzy on this one), then $12.95, then the current $15 per month. This is based on EQ, granted early EQ.
Imo, the only reason we haven't seen a more reasent rise in the sub fee (besides the 400 lb gorilla), is the whole F2P scene right now. There seem to be a great number of people who seem to think that they should be able to play MMOs with no money invested at all. It's caused a sort of cancer, among the others caused by other things, in the industry.
To answer the OP, I would not be surprised at all, nor would I care.
Playing: H1Z1, The Crew, Defiance, APB:Reloaded
Bitter Vet™
Joined: 9/13/06
Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Good question. I currently pay for 3 EVE subs, not sure I'd really want to see them go up, I'd at least expect something of extra value, like you know, lag free fleet fights or something like that. (or a once a day automatic I win button)
But certainly not just to pay for the development of additional titles such as Dust514. (though some money tossed to WOD would be OK)
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
Elite Member
Joined: 11/16/07
If anything, sub prices should have gone down between 1999 and 2012.
While it is true that the cost of making MMOs has gone up since the early days, the cost of actually running one has gone down, way down. Several devs of various games have commented on this, on several sites, that the cost of bandwidth and game hardware is about 10% of what it was in the UO/EQ days.
The $15/mo number was centered around that: development costs were mostly covered by the box price, and new content by charging for new expansions.
But as time went on, the "upkeep" costs for running MMOs plummeted. But the big (or formerly big) companies, Bliz, SOE, and the others saw no reason to change the price to reflect that, because the market accepted the $15/mo price.
The fact that "F2P" and B2P games exist at all, is largely a function of the "almost free" nature of bandwidth and server hardware, in terms of running an MMO. If the expenses for servers and bandwidth were the same as the old day, there would be no F2P games at all: they could not afford to keep a game running on a small slice of the player base paying.
So, while it is true that $15 in 2012 is worth a good deal less than in 1999, the costs that drove that as a basis for the price of an MMO sub are much, much lower. And thus, the $15/mo is a lot more profitable for the producers (if they only could make a game good enough for people to keep playing).
Well few things. First, it's already been shown by multiple companies that the subscription fees aren't really used much for the process of maintaining the servers, power or utilities of buildings, the medical side of things is pretty much taken care of, insurance costs for companies is going to go down in 2014 to help workers get insurance. Second, the very small percentage of the sub money goes towards support, then to developers, the rest of the hefty bulk of it goes to the execs. And finally, the dollar hasn't changed that dramatically to require a huge increase in subscription costs, come back and talk to be in 20 yrs not 4 every economic model in a credit based economy will tell you that it can't change that quickly without a full on second great depression, we haven't had one of those, it's a dip not a depression. So I ask you, do you really think that if they started asking for more money from the subscribers that it would be due to utilities or medical insurance costs? sorry...not buying it.
Oh and HOLY RUSTED METAL batman! this website is taking forever to load today. sheesh!
Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/04/05
Originally posted by Roxtarr
You make some good points. If games are going to keep going the subscription route, Logically inflation would have to kick in at some point and the prices would have to go up.
However, I don't think the issue is as much w/ the price, as it is what you get for that price. In short I think the trend set by subscriptions is just not a sustainable one. It reinforces the need to push out more content than the last guy, which isn't possible to do every time. This is how we get rushed, half-finished content that feels 'lackluster'.
Maybe in another 10years I'd be okay with paying an extra dollar or two (if I'm still playing MMOs), but right now, I'm having a hard time justifying paying a sub at all. So the answer would be no, I wouldn't pay a more expensive sub.
What I'd like to see MMOs start doing, would actually be launching with less features, but much more polished. A really solid core gameplay, and then expanding upon that. Once games start doing that I'd probably be more open to revisiting a sub-fee, if it's clear that the money is going towards expanding on the existing content at a decent pace.
Hard Core Member
Joined: 7/26/04
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
Originally posted by Roxtarr
Someone has convinced the studio's that raising sub rpices would be the kiss of death and that's precisely the problem . I don't think it would be. Studios use to be able to make money on lower pop numbers and still deliver a product and updates. Inflation has not hit sub prices and hence studio's need larger pops to sustain games. There in lies the problem . Larger numbers means more diverse tastes and opinions and basically problems. If you tailor a game to hardcore fans , ex: EvE and raise prices and still deliver a quality product the playerbase will be much more tolerant. This drive for large pops is killing games ,because devs are attempting to get games to make a big splash ( at least in MMO's ) . The truth is not every game is for everyone taste. If a company can make a game and sustain subs a 250000 at $25/mo , that's a nice chunk of change. Off of something like that , especially in MMO's you can build momentum and a game . Currently what happens , a game is released and within 3 mo it's being announced that F2P is in the offing. Why ? Cash flow is the simple answer and financial sustainablity. Games and titles will have hardcore fans , the idea that devs need to embrace is that they can be the people you cater to , make a profit and use as a base to expand and improve your product into the future.
An upside would be that poeple would be more discerning about where they spend their money forcing devs to actually release a better product. The system as it currently functions is a dumbing down games to maximize profites off of an expectant increasing population sizes too meet profitiblity. The game collapse when it's not met. An MMO should be thought of as a business. You find your market, you cater to your market , you expand and grow based on your market success, but you need to price so that profits can be realized and markets will bear. You start as a mom and pop , and grow to a GM, Walmart , Home Depot etc... No MMO has ever start as the big boy on the block. Devs have forgotten this and lost sight of that principle.
Novice Member
Joined: 1/19/10
I'd be okay with it, as long as I continued to enjoy the game. Though I would be hoping for quicker release of more solid content.
Elite Member
Joined: 6/10/09
Burntvet and itgrowls both described how I see the situation. Hardware is much cheaper as is bandwidth.
I prefer a true subscription model but I dont' think any of those exist anymore. Every place that charges a sub also either has some form of microtransaction (even if it's just expacs) or sells gold. They all supplement their income. If I'm going to pay a subscription going forward then it better cover everything.
So not only would I not be okay with a price increase, I'm not okay with the current fee schedule. Most sub games are around $150 to $200 per year. At $10/mo with an expac cost averaging about $40 per year you hit $160/year. If the game cost $16/mo (up from $15) it would come in at a minimum of $232/year, if not more. I mean if they're going to up the monthly fee why not the xpac fee too? No game out at the moment is worth that per year. From my perspective, none of them deliver the goods for that price.


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Grandmas hold our tiny hands for just a little while, but our hearts forever. ~Author Unknown
A moment this week to pay homage to those special 'extra' parents who mark our lives so deeply. Grandparents.
A Grandparent seems to be able to bridge that wide gap between the modern and the ancient. In our Grandparents we can see and hear History through their stories, and yet there they are right before us, as contemporaries.
I never knew either of my Grandfathers, but let me introduce you to the two amazing women who were a presence in my life as I grew up. The lovely lady above was my Grandmother, Olive c. 1916. And this little beauty was my other Grandmother, Lily. Above, as a young filly. Below, just as I remember her. Warm and safe.
My personal memories of my Grands….
1. Rolled up sleeves
2. Cleaning, always cleaning. Scrubbing drains – who does that?!
3. Whiskers on her chinny chin chin
4. Shrinking. Every year I got bigger and they got smaller
5. Summer holidays, two deck chairs and a wind-break. The omnipresent sandwich-making duo
6. Chrysanthemums in the garden
7. Tinned ham sandwiches and Sterilised milk custard
8. Playing cards with me and my brother
9. Stopping for a cup of tea. A lot.
10. A life of modesty and hardship concealed. 11 siblings each, war, loss, poverty and heart-break. All put aside whilst they dedicated themselves to their families and our future.
When Lil died, we discovered two things – a wedding photograph that we had never known to exist, and an engagement ring which she had kept in a box for over 60 years, unworn. I wondered why for a long time, but now I think I understand. Precious, not to be damaged, and frivolous for a woman whose hands were dedicated to scouring for hours each day.
I hope this has evoked a few good memories of your own Grandparents and their part in your Family Stories. Share them, do, below.
My grandmother started walking five miles a day when she was sixty. She's ninety-seven now, and we don't know where the hell she is! ~Ellen DeGeneres
Post an entry to your own Blog and use the Linky tool (link below) to enter your memories into the fray. If you like, just leave a comment and join in that way, but do join in.
If you feel sexy, grab the code too (just follow the link) and post it into your Blog entry – that way, everyone can pay it forward as they say – it's good to share.
Please visit the other blogs on the list and leave a comment or two – it makes everyone's day!
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More about the Life's a Journey weekly memories series.
Other posts in this series:-
Week 1 – My earliest baby photo
Week 2 – Old School Portrait
Week 3 – Earliest Writings
Week 4 – Bestest Friends
Week 5 – Teenage Crushes
Week 6 – First Movie Memories
Week 7 – The Song You Snogged Your Hand To
Olive (second from left) and her 7 sisters. There were a few boys too!!!!

subset: commoncrawl


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US wrestlers blindsided by Olympic ousterThe Associated Press | February 13,2013AP File Photo
United States wrestler Rulon Gardner, right, holds the arm of Russian opponent Alexander Karelin during the final bout in the 130-kilogram class at the 2000 Summer Olympics Games.Rulon Gardners epic upset of Russian wrestling great Alexander Karelin in 2000 remains one of the most compelling moments of the modern Olympics.
Starting in 2020, youngsters looking to Gardner and Karelin for inspiration wont have a chance to excel on the sports biggest stage.
Gardner and nearly everyone else associated with the sport in the U.S. were jolted Tuesday when International Olympic Committee leaders dropped wrestling from the Summer Games.
The move is set to take effect for the 2020 Olympics and eliminates a sport thats been a staple of both the ancient and modern Games.
Its the IOC trying to change the Olympics to make it more mainstream and more viewer-friendly instead of sticking to what they founded the Olympics on, and that was basically amateur sports, Gardner told The Associated Press by phone from Logan, Utah. To get the death penalty out of nowhere.
The decision by the IOC to phase out wrestling will rob the U.S. of one of its most successful Olympic sports.
The only sports in which the Americans have won more medals than wrestling is swimming and track and field and those two have far more medal opportunities.
Americans have won a record 113 freestyle Olympic medals, by far the most of any nation. Though the U.S. had slipped in recent Olympic cycles, it bounced back with a pair of London Games gold medalists in Jordan Burroughs possibly the best wrestler in the world and Jake Varner.
I do think wrestling people are the strongest in the world, and theyre resilient. And well come out of whatever happens. But short term, yeah, its sad, 2004 Olympic gold medalist and Penn State coach Cael Sanderson said.
I just think of the kids in our program that dream of being Olympic champions. And to think that now thats no longer an opportunity just so the IOC stay fresh and continue to rotate sports and whatever their plan is its tough to think about.
Wrestling is also one of the most popular youth sports in the U.S. The National Federation of State High School Associations reports that the sport was sixth among prep boys with nearly 275,000 competing in 2010-11.
Burroughs tweeted Tuesday: Its not over yet. We will keep fighting to save the sport we love. Dont stop dreaming and dont stop believing.
Wrestling will now join seven other sports in applying for inclusion in 2020. The others are a combined bid from baseball and softball, karate, squash, roller sports, sport climbing, wakeboarding and wushu. They will be vying for a single opening in 2020.
The IOC executive board will meet in May in St. Petersburg, Russia, to decide which sport or sports to propose for 2020 inclusion. The final vote will be in September in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Given the history and tradition of wrestling, and its popularity and universality, we were surprised when the decision was announced, U.S. Olympic Committee CEO Scott Blackmun said. It is important to remember that todays action is a recommendation, and we hope that there will be a meaningful opportunity to discuss the important role that wrestling plays in the sports landscape both in the United States and around the world.
Rejoining the Olympic roster for 2020 seems unlikely. Still, former Olympic champion and current Iowa coach Tom Brands said the international wrestling community needs to fight this ouster.
Its one of those things where your first thoughts are pretty bad, Brands said. Theres nothing more sacred to living than learning to overcome struggle. Wrestling is that equivalent, more than any other form of sport, recreation or entertainment. Its worse than death because you cant control death, and this is something that maybe we can control or could have controlled. We need to look forward to May and the process in September.
Reaction to the move was swift on social media. A Facebook page titled Save Olympic Wrestling was started Tuesday morning and had nearly 5,000 members by noon. A number of fellow Olympians also displayed their displeasure over the decision on Twitter by using the hashtag (hash)SaveOlympicWrestling.
It just seems like wrestling, if we dont fight were going to die, Gardner said. At this point, its time for everybody to man up and support the program.
Follow Luke Meredith on Twitter: www.twitter.com/LukeMeredithAPMORE IN Wire SportsFLORHAM PARK, N.J. Full StoryTURNBERRY, Scotland Theres a Ko atop the leaderboard after three rounds of the Womens British... Full Story
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CDF prefect tells U.S. nuns they were wrong to honor Elizabeth Johnson.
Grant Gallicho May 5, 2014 - 11:52am
Last week, Cardinal Gerhard Mueller, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, rebuked representatives of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, for giving an Outstanding Leadership Award to Elizabeth Johnson, CSJ, "a theologian criticized by the Bishops of the United States because of the gravity of the doctrinal errors in that theologian's writings." He called that decision "a rather open provocation against the Holy See and the Doctrinal Assessment"--that would be the one that looked like little more than investigation by Google.
Mueller couldn't bring himself to actually use Johnson's name, but everyone in the room knew that he was referring to a 2011 "critique" of her book Quest for the Living God that was published by the doctrinal committee of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. The Committee on Doctrine really disliked the book. You can tell because they claimed it "completely undermines the Gospel." But the committee's case was rather weak. It seemed to rest on false assumptions about Johnson's intent--especially on issues related to feminism, which led me to wonder whether committee members had actually read the book. They didn't even invite her to discuss their concerns before publishing their broadside. And when Johnson responded at length to the critique, the bishops on the committee replied by repeating themselves. All in all, not the finest hour for the USCCB Committee on Doctrine--and it probably would have been better for all involved if the entire episode was forgotten.
But here comes Cardinal Mueller, prefect of the CDF, to remind the LCWR that they should have known better than to provoke his criticism by daring to honor one of the most honored theologians working today. He refers to the alleged "gravity" of the "doctrinal errors" of Johnson's "writings"--which makes it sound like her entire body of work is suspect--but he doesn't name them. And neither, really, did the Committee on Doctrine. Their statement vaguely mentions "errors," but mainly it's concerned with "ambiguities." The only "error" it identifies is methodological. But as Johnson herself noted, the committee misunderstood the nature of the book, which is a work of theology, not catechesis.
Mueller knows he's tough-loving: "I apologize if this seems blunt, but what I must say is too important to dress up in flowery language." Best not to mince words. For the head of the CDF to repeat the canard that Johnsons "writings" suffer from grave doctrinal errors does a great disservice to a great theologian. Mueller is in charge of the CDF now. He's not a professor delivering a critique at a conference. If he's going to claim that a theologian's writings are doctrinally deficient--he ought to show his work, not sloppily dismiss them in an aside.
Commenting Guidelines
What about his other "rebukes"?About the CDF's concern over "a focalizing of attention within the LCWR around the concept of Conscious Evolution*" for example?
Are they also to be seen as "sloppy"?
*Whatever the hel, er I mean, heck that is.
Has she taken a public stand in favor of the legalization of the taking of innocent human life ,in the womb? If she has then she is indeed undermining the Gospels and the Christ centered teaching of the Catholic Church regarding the theology of the inviolate ;cannot,ethically, be violated by the individual or the state- sacredness of human life, which accords with the 5th commandmant.
Catholic theologians under Vatican investigation: Hans Kung, Gustavo Guitierrez, Charles Curran, Leonardo Boff, Edward Schillebeeckx, Karl Rahner, Matthew Fox, Ernesto Cardenal, Raymond Hunthausen ... and now Elizabeth Johnson. Sounds to me like Elizabeth is in good company!
This is all more about putting down and silencing a woman's voice by a bunch of aging hierarchs with very grumpy prostates.
This is what evolutionary extinction sounds like.
Is this the same CDF that spend months upon months in painstaking, hair splitting, minutiae relative to doctrinal disputes with the SSPX that has supported and supports holocaust denying bishops and members, SSPX priests who flirt with pro-Nazi sentiments and attitudes? They have been descirbed as anti-Semitic and reject the better part of the Second Vatican Council.
Is this the same CDF that spent decades concealing and minimizing the serial rapist Marcial Macial?
I apologize if the above seems blunt, but it is too important to dress up in flowery language.
You have to split hairs when dealing with doctrine.Otherwise you have no Catholic doctrine.It may not be pleasant,as doing so is fodder for much ridicule and criticism but someone in the church has to do it.Over time it can make real difference in the world;the difference between a people, a society, that supports abortion, the death penalty, pre-emptive war,etc. for example, and a society that does not.
... and what does Pope Francis think? I don't know the workings of all of this, but it surely seems contrary to the spirit that he's been generating. This may become a symbol of either his impotency in the face of the Curia or his own doctrinal rigidity inspite of his personal warmth. Either way, this is not the way to win friends and influence people. And I'm sure Gerhard Mueller may not care, but I'll be that Pope Francis does.
Regarding religion; any statement beyond "Gods exists"; or [later in history] "God exists", is splitting hairs- in- the- weeds- minutiae.
My point is that the Bishops did not even invite Elizabeth Johnson in to clarify nor did the CDF spend marathon sessions in the office with her pouring over her texts. They did for the SSPX.
As far as I know, the CDF did not spend hours in dialogue with the LCWR but they did with the SSPX who harbour some questionable views to say the least.
If the process around how these things (meaning notations and findings against groups, speakers, and theologians) is not clear, it should at least be fair or have the appearance of fairness. This process had none of that.
@ rose-ellen caminer: Does it surprise you that the same CDF [a.k.a. Holy Office of the Inquisition] harrumphs around splitting hairs about how Elizabeth Johnson "completely undermines the Gospel," while it never found the time to condemn Marcial Maciel of the Legion of Christ and thousands of other bishops and priests for the wanton rape and sodomy of children?
What "real difference in the world" do you think the CDF made for all those sexually abused and exploited children in the face of their assaults at the hands of Catholic priests?
Was Ratzinger as the head of the CDF one of those people who ["someone in the church has to do it"] when he successfully intervened to amend the infamous US bishops' Dallas Charter so that hierarchs and religious communities would have impunity from any investigations by review boards; who tried to limit the definition of what is a "minor" to boys under 16 y.o. and girls under 14 y.o. so that prepetrator priests who victimized older children were not the only subjects for possible sanctions by review boards; and who essentially rendered review boards toothless mainly because they had women members on the review board?
What kind of "society" sacrifices the innocence of children on the altar of clerical political hegemony?
The Irish Prime Minister, Taoiseach Enda Kenny, best summed-up all the hair-splitting when he said that the Vatican looked at the world through "the gimlet eyes of a canon lawyer."
David Pasinski,
I very much doubt Pope Francis is interested in "winning friends and influencing people."
On the contrary, the Pope has shown that he has little patience for, and therefore, has bluntly criticized those who spew the Gnostic nonsense.
And I for one am actually curious to hear what LCWR might say about the Cardinal's charge about the whole Conscious Evolution nonsense that LCWR is accused of promoting. Just what exactly did these LCWR people hope to accomplish by inviting someone like Barbara Marx Hubbard to their assembly? Just how does this "concept of conscious evolution" relate to and advance the mission of LCWR?
This is typical of ultra-conservative Muller, who has been having a runjing battle with German bishops (Maex ... http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/divorzi...) over communion for those divorced/remarried (Muller ... http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/muller-...). He has what I think are some icky ideas on what marriage is supposed to be ... http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/10/22/archbishop_m%C3%BCller:_care_...
There was an article at The Tablet by Hans Kung with this on Muller ... http://www.thetablet.co.uk/texts-speeches-homilies/4/162/pope-francis-te... ...
In a long guest contribution in Osservatore Romano (23 October 2013), Müller demonstrated his ultra-conservative stance by corroborating the exclusion of remarried divorcees from the sacraments who, unless they live together as brother and sister (!), are ostensibly in a state of mortal sin on account of the sexual character of their relationship.
As Bishop of Regensburg, Müller, as a clerical hardliner who provoked numerous conflicts with parish priests and theologians, lay bodies and the Central Committee of German Catholics, was as controversial and unpopular as his brother bishop at Limburg. That Müller, as a loyal supporter and publisher of his collected works, was nevertheless appointed CDF Prefect by Papa Ratzinger, surprised people less than the fact that Pope Francis confirmed him in office quite so soon.
And worried observers are already asking whether Pope Emeritus Ratzinger is in fact operating as a kind of "shadow Pope" behind the scenes through Archbishop Müller and Georg Gänswein ..."
I can't understand why Francis chose him to be the head of the CDF.
I think we have to be careful about equating Cdl. Mueller's thoughts on this matter with Pope Francis'. Remember when Mueller tried to sieze the conversation on communion for divorced and remarried Catholics. I don't recall ever hearing Pope Francis endorse Mueller's views. He is playing his usual game here trying to control the conversation.
Oops. I was writing tmy post as you were posting your fuller version, Crystal. But you can see I agree with you fully.
I think the LCWR's only mistake was in actually meeting with Mueller. I imagine they did it because it was some kind of requirement, but, really, what good could come of it? I think they're close to a place where they don't have much more to lose vis-a-vis the CDF.
La plus change... Oops, Je mehr die Dinge ändern, je mehr sie gleich bleiben.
So what's new. Be glad yopu don't live in Connecticut where our newly appointed archbishpp (by Pope Francis) is one of the Inquisators
From Monday through Saturday, morning and afternoon, Pope Francis keeps a very heavy schedule of meetings (audiences) --- individuals, small groups, large groups. Today the Pope met with the leaders of the US Conference of Major Superiors of Men. Has a meeting with the Pope been scheduled for the representatives of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious during their time in Rome?
Good article Grant. You did omit pointing out that Mueller is the creator of all the warped and sick reasoning why women cannot be deacon or priests. I read Sr. Johnson's book and all of the correspondence between her and the USCCB. I found "Quest for the Living God" to be an outstanding theology book. I think the criticism was entirely political and was done in order to silence a woman theologian. Sr. Johnson quotes the feminine side of God from Scripture and did a couple of good backhanded swipes about the bishops. There is nothing heretical about that. For my part, it was the final straw. I can't swallow the hypocrisy and discrimination any further. After 50 plus years of being a Catholic, I have left the Church. One day these men will stand before God. I hope He/She asks them:
"Why didn't you use all of the gifted people I gave you to further my Kingom?"
In an excellent post, Crystal pointed out that this is nothing new with Muller. Remember that Francis sent two encouraging letters to Hans Kuns. Kung got nothing from JPII in his 27 years of office. When asked by Spiegel whether this is the beginning of a "Catholic Spring?" Kung replied: "It's already here, but there is the same risk of setbacks and counter-movements as there have been with the Arab Spring. There are powerful groups in the Vatican and the church around the world that would like to turn back the clock. They're worried about their privileges."
So it may not be Muller alone but others. Spiegel asked Kung about Muller. Here is the text:
"SPIEGEL: But Francis has also reconfirmed Archbishop Gerhard Ludwig Müller, a hard-liner, as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican's watchdog and enforcer on issues of accepted doctrine.
Küng: I could imagine that Benedict strongly campaigned for keeping Müller in the position. But the litmus test will be whether the new pope continues to allow him to play overseer of the faith and grand inquisitor."
So much going on here. Is Muller's group waiting to see how Francis reacts. Francis is a very deliberative person. Muller's other remarks have to a certain extent gone under the radar. Muller does not tell the Leadersip of the nuns that Francis directed him. He merely refers them to an address Francis gave.
Francis is a very deliberative person. I doubt if he will remove Mueller. But the tone towards the Nun's leadership might suddenly change. Interesting that the Nun's leadership had no comment.
Maybe Beth Johnson will get a call from you know who!
Guess I will have to try and get "The Quest for the Living God" through interlibrary loan to see what all the fuss is about. So far I haven't read of anything that ought to get it on the Index (sort of sounds like they resurrected it). One objection seems to be that Dr. Johnson images God as being present in creation. I thought that we believed that God is both immanent and transcendent. Another objection is her discussion of "Conscious Evolution". Which I don't know anything about; however the definition I found is, "Conscious evolution suggests that humanity can choose advancement through co-operation and co-creation or self-destruction through separateness and competition." Which seems true enough and would only be a problem if one left the grace of God out of the equation. There is a lack of specificity in the critiques.
BTW, has anyone read her new book, "Ask the Beasts"?
I've not read any of her books, but saw this video lecture by her - "An Ecological Inquiry: Jesus and the Cosmos"
Crystal calls Mueller an "archconservative" and a "clerical hardliner" to the enthusiastic agreement of many other commenters above. This makes me wonder about the terms of comparison by which this judgment is made. From the attempts to isolate and smear Mueller as a public enemy, it sounds like the CDF ordinarily is a liberal body that approves of dissenting positions, which has suddenly and inexplicably been given a prefect plucked from the far right wing. Well, of course that's not the case.
There are truly archconservative persons who rose to promienence under Benedict XVI. They have labored mightily to roll back the liturgical reform. Mueller, on the other hand, has spoken out in support of the liturgical reform -- in no uncertain terms -- to the utter dismay of the traditionalists.
In his capacity as head of the CDF, Mueller was responsible for overseeing the negotiations with the Society of Pius X. Under his leadership those negotiations came to an end without their demands being met. The SSPX hated him from the git-go, because he would not give in to their views. If he were truly an archconservative, he would have been much more maleable to their demands.
Mueller certainly is no more conservative than his predecessors at the CDF, and possibly less so. Who expects him to approve of divorced and remarried persons receiving the Eucharist? Show me another head of the CDF that has approved of this idea. There are none.
Levada, his predecessor, ordered the investigation of women religious. Mueller did not do this, nor has he ordered a similar investigation elsewhere. What he is talking about here is upholding the American bishops' doctrinal assessment of Sr. Johnson's work.
Is this an extremist's position, or just the reflexive reaction of someone who thinks the bishops ought to be respected in their judgment? Sure, it's fair to criticize him for taking their word for it (if indeed, he didn't read the book himself; it's also not beyond imagining that he might have read the book and found fault with it). Stand up for the theologian and for freedom of theological inquiry, by all means. But we need to keep this in perspective. When you look at the whole gallery, somebody like Raymond Burke has done much more damage to the church than Mueller has. It seems to me that Mueller is a mainstream conservative churchman, and not the worst of the bunch at that. We misread the situation if we wring our hands about why hasn't Francis removed him.
Mueller brought Gustavo Guttierez to the Vatican, and is favorable to his work. I cannot think of another head of the CDF who has had a good word to say about liberation theology. Can anyone else point to another CDF head who did anything like this? Just sayin'.
The original post says:
"Mueller knows he's tough-loving: "I apologize if this seems blunt, but what I must say is too important to dress up in flowery language." Best not to mince words. For the head of the CDF to repeat the canard that Johnsons "writings" suffer from grave doctrinal errors does a great disservice to a great theologian."
But the statement quoted here about bluntness is explicitly directed to "Conscious Evolution" and Barbara Marx Hubbard, not to Sr. Johnson. It's the second of his two points. Here's what he says:
"For the last several years, the Congregation has been following with increasing concern a focalizing of attention within the LCWR around the concept of Conscious Evolution. Since Barbara Marx Hubbard addressed the Assembly on this topic two years ago, every issue of your newsletter has discussed Conscious Evolution in some way. Issues of Occasional Papers have been devoted to it. We have even seen some religious Institutes modify their directional statements to incorporate concepts and undeveloped terms from Conscious Evolution."
It's then that he says he is being blunt. I don't see that this is a criticism of Sr. Johnson. And actually, if every issue of their newsletter, and occasional papers, and revision of directional statements are all falling into line with the ideas of Conscious Evolution, and if Conscious Evolution is post-Christian, this is a serious issue, no? I defer to people who know something about BMH.
My read of the post, however, was that Grant was defending Sr. Johnson, not Barbara Marx Hubbard.
All fair points and well taken. However, the distinction you draw between Mueller's criticism being blunt and Sr. Johnson seems to be a distinction without a difference.
I admit to not having read Sr. Johnson's book but will when I get time but I do think that it is fair to say that she is, to us an imprecise albeit accurate term, a fellow traveller on that road. And of course there is nothing wrong with that; it is a matter of degree, definition and understanding.
It appears that, according to the LCWR the meeting with the staff at the CDF was respectful and engaging. They issued a public statement.
So, that is good. Hope for peaceful and serene resolution.
However, and this is a big however, from what I have read the process surrounding CDF investigations and even the USCCB's were anything but transparent, respectful, or engaging with the theologians with whom they had questions.
It is good to have a countervailing view to prevent swings in one direction or the other and I can see the CDF or committees of Bishops serving in this important role. The process, though, does need to be respectful. In this instance, it appears that it was but that might have more to do with the style of person heading it (i.e. Mueller) than it does the process itself. And this is not a good thing. There needs to be systemic, procedural reform as well.
I am glad that flirtation with the SSPX is over and done with! They are a destructive crew.
It was not I who wrote Muller was ""archconservative" and a "clerical hardliner" ... I was quoting Hans Kung's article in The Tablet. I give the URL for that in my comment above - http://www.thetablet.co.uk/texts-speeches-homilies/4/162/pope-francis-te...
Sorry, Crystal. What you said @ 4:12 was "ultraconservative" - I got that mixed up with "archconservative" in the Kueng story.
Yes, I see what you mean. I have considered him a very conservative person based on what he's said about marriage and the possibility of women's ordination. But the fact that he is mostly ok with liberation theology and that he didn't accept the SSPX uncritically does seem to show he isn't a conservative in all areas. Given his views on marriage and women's odination and now this nuns/Johnson thing, perhaps he has some issues with women.
That's quite possible. I don't deny that he's a social (and theological) conservative, mind you. It's just that I'd place him as sort of a mainstream conservative, not a restorationist or traditionalist or ultraconservative. I've never seen him in a cappa magna. He does not blame Vatican II for the falloff in vocations or church attendance. Etc.
George D,
I couldn't agree with you more about the process. It really does need to be changed, and changed systemically.
Thanks for the link to the LCWR response!
Rita Ferrone @ 10:47pm and follow-ups:
if every issue of their newsletter, and occasional papers, and revision of directional statements are all falling into line with the ideas of Conscious Evolution, and if Conscious Evolution is post-Christian, this is a serious issue, no?
This is a sad mess, but, for how things have devolved into this incredibly stinky mess, LCWR is hardly blameless, IMO. They really need to, once and for all, as Pope Francis said to Latin American religious, "Explain whatever you have to explain" in this regard -- and again I will say, this Consious Evolution thing is something that warrants explanation from LCWR -- in order to move forward.
It's even sadder to see how divisive this issue remains among the faithful. Those on the more "traditional" side are rejoicing at this "CDF crackdown on the dissident nuns who are the worst offenders of the history of the church"; those on the more "liberal" side, on the other hand, are of course screaming, "CDF is Persecuting the Good Nuns who can do no wrong," conflating all kinds of issues along the way, of course.
One can only hope and pray that this too shall pass.
Dear Folks,
It is hard for me to take anything said by a bishop "as bishop" very seriously at all. Collectively, these men are paranoid and full of fear. Who cares if an adult Catholic reads and reflects on the work of a thoughtful theologian like Beth Johnson? The church is none the worse for it, or can the bishops prove otherwise? As for the bishops (again, collectively), one might venture to say that the church today is far worse because of them. And we could all prove that quite easily. As for me, I read what I want and make my own informed judgment, when judgment is required. When an inbred, closed-in bunch of men spend time and energy parsing (or, it appears, merely skimming the Cliffs Notes) of a theologian's work, while their own lives---from their often-ridiculous outfits, to their pompous titles, to their utterly reproachable lack of repentance for unconscionable crimes---make one (or make me, at least) wonder what "gospel" they are actually reading, their opinions should hardly even register. For if they have missed in large part the central "theology" of the mission of Jesus and the most fundamental message of the Gospel (and I don't mean the "parallel gospels" like the ones written by JP II, for example), then how can they possibly be trusted to "get" theological work that actually springs from freedom and trust in the work of the Holy Spirit, even if that work is only partial, tentative and open to further development and correction? Collectively, these men are blind guides.
One more thing: they are worried about the LCWR honoring Beth Johnson? Where was that concern when "saint" JPII was heaping honor after honor on the likes of Maciel? Like I said, BLIND GUIDES.
Not only have the prelatial players missed the boat on the distinction between catechesis and theology, they seem utterly lost on the long battle between clergy and women outside the cloister. This tussle is embarrassing. Women religious don't need an organization recognized by Rome to meet in conferences, read books, and have discussions.
@ Todd Flowerday,
Women religious don't need an organization recognized by Rome to meet in conferences, read books, and have discussions.
Would you have felt and said the same thing if the invited key note speaker at their conferences was someone who opposes Vatican II, and if they are reading books about and supporting SSPX's line of thinking and have discussions?
Maria makes a good point. At what benchmark do the "rebukes" cease, and consequences applied?
Maria makes a good point. At what benchmark do the "rebukes" cease, and consequences applied?
Yes, I would. These people are adults. They get to pick their own conference speakers, topics, and such. They can go to conferences with or without an umbrella organization. If LCWR folds, so what?
From Cardinal Mueller's address:
[The LCWR's honoring Elizabeth Johnson] is a decision that will be seen as a rather open provocation against the Holy See and the Doctrinal Assessment. Not only that, but it further alienates the LCWR from the Bishops as well. I realize I am speaking rather bluntly about this, but I do so out of an awareness that there is no other interpretive lens, within and outside the Church, through which the decision to confer this honor will be viewed.
In other words, it is Cardinal Mueller's view that the LCWR is honoring Johnson in order to stick a thumb in the eye of the Holy See. And he may not be wrong.
The Cardinal continues:
It is my understanding that Archbishop Sartain [the "Delegate" appointed by the CDF to work with the LCWR to fix the problems identified in the CDF's assessment] was informed of the selection of the honoree only after the decision had been made. Had he been involved in the conversation as the Mandate envisions, I am confident that he would have added an important element to the discernment which then may have gone in a different direction. The decision taken by the LCWR during the ongoing implementation of the Doctrinal Assessment is indeed regrettable and demonstrates clearly the necessity of the Mandate's provision that speakers and presenters at major programs will be subject to approval by the Delegate. I must therefore inform you that this provision is to be considered fully in force.
To summarize: Mueller just escalated the conflict. The LCWR is now officially grounded and can't take the car out for a drive without asking Dad for the keys.
I see no evidence that Francis is going to intervene on the women's behalf. The only evidence I've seen so far is that Francis approves of these sanctions against the LCWR.
The level of mutual distrust is really disturbing. This does not seem to be going down a path that is going to lead to reconciliation and peace.
Jim Pauwels,
I think you are seriously overstating the case. Müller said that Pope Francis approved of the CDF Mandate against LCWR. I have not seen any documentation that puts Pope Francis on the record of approving of the Mandate.
I suggest that you cool your heels for a while, for this story is not over yet. LCWR has hardly been grounded. This latest exchange is, as the LCWR statement says, a continuation of a dialogue. Now, let me ask you this, Do you want LCWR to be grounded?
When did doctrinal enforcement ever lead to reconciliation and peace? ISTM that any agency charged with defending the conventional wisdom will always and everywhere be potentially at odds with anyone who attempts to re-phrase the conventional wisdom or to ask questions not already answered. Because being at odds with them is its job. You can't talk the traffic cop into waiving the red light.
Any pastoral result has be imposed at a level above over doctrine enforcers.
I haven't read all theosts so I don't kow if you've read Elizabeth Johnson's works or various commentaries as I have. I have not seen the specific objections from Mueller and others and don't even know if they are avaialable... and they won't engage her personally...That's less of a forum than even Martin Luther received!
And I do believe that Pope Francis does want to "Win friends and influence people." Read "The Joy of the Gospel." It is full of that invitation! I am not saying he is comromising doctrine, but the spirit in which this has ben done and continues to play out is counter to the whole "Francis effect" and will chill many who were hoping for better...
@ Todd Flowerday,
Yes, I would. These people are adults.
Well, I guess we disagree then. For I do not think "these people" should do whatever they want, NOT when they purport to be the leaders of and therefore, represent 80 percent of the the Catholic nuns in the U.S.
And if doing whatever regardless of the possible ramifications of their actions and decisions, is what they really want --- and I don't believe for a second that they do -- then surely, "these people" might as well follow the SSPX out the door and move onto the land of schism, where they will indeed be able to whatever the heck they want.
As an aside, does anyone remember how the "rad trads" got their panties in a bunch when B16 first appointed Cardinal Muller as the prefect of CDF, because they saw him as "a flaming heretic"?
If this whole situation weren't so tragic, it might be the joke of the century.
Many thanks to Rita Ferrone for her comments. I also don't know much about Conscious Evolution, and the little bit I've been looking at over the past day seems to go from the innocuous (living in relation to all of creation and the cosmos) to what really does seem to be an anti-body, and thus anti-Christian, ideology of trans-humanism. But there does seem to be quite enough variety to allow legitimate exploration, and Mueller's attempt to shut it down strikes me as premature. Still, unlike the silliness about Professor Johnson, there may be some actual fire behind this particular smoke.
On the question of Francis keeping Mueller, I wonder if part of all this isn't that Francis has already begun a pretty radical de-centering of the CDF from the church's life. It seems pretty clear that under this pontificate, the CDF is no longer La Suprema. Just last night Cardinal Kasper vocally criticized him (see Grant's post on the Fordham conversation), many German bishops are openly disagreeing with him about divorce and remarriage, and he himself seems to be coming close to openly disagreeing with the pope on the topic. This actually strikes me as quite healthy: grown-ups are able to have a grown-up conversation about the church's belief and practice without fear of being raked over the coals. In this light, Mueller is just one man in charge of an important--but not all important--office who is giving his opinion, but not necessarily the official policy of Rome. The LCWR's account of the conversation with the CDF would bear this out, I think. He may be harsh in his comments, but so far they are really just that: comments.
Not sure why you asked me the question, then.
The fact is that women religious have freedom. They can meet, discuss, read, and do all sorts of things you, the CDF, the bishops or I might agree or disagree with. We are all powerless.
I'm far more concerned about living my own Christian life than sticking my nose into conferences I don't attend.
It is a joke. Ecclesial power is mostly illusory. Especially in this situation.
Mueller said that if Sartain had been informed, Johnson may not have been chosen. He said he would not attempt to undo the invitation to Johnson but said that Sartain must have final say over next year's LCWR convention, adding that the Vatican mandate is now "fully in force."
Can this be acceptable? Should it be accepted? If this is how things are going to work, what's left of the LCWR's autonomy?
Heaven knows I am no theologian. I'd lose a debate with either Sr Elizabeth or Cardinal Mueller before it began. But does this who thing strike anyone else as slightly childish? Somewhat an "in your face" move by the LCWR and an I'll show those uppity women move by the Cardinal? Of all the people who are worthy of an award from LCWR, they picked one who is currently in a fight with the bishops, at a time when their own organization is in another fight with the bishops. Not to say she is not deserving, but maybe you give her the award in 2016, when things have calmed down a little. Maybe Cardinal Mueller just lets this one go, regardless of the alleged "slight." but both of those decisions would assume that grown ups were in charge and not a bunch of kids trying to play king (or queen) or the hill.
@ Todd Flowerday,
Well, I asked because generally, I agree with your thinking, but not in this case, so I was curious to hear what you thought.
Yes, women religious have freedom. Of course, they do. Having freedom, however, doesn't mean one can do whatever one pleases -- well duh.
And I care about what's going on with LCWR, what they do, why, and to what effect, because they are my sisters, our sisters -- well duh, again -- and also and more importantly, because this affects not just them, but so many others who may or may not have anything to do with LCWR's decisions and actions.
@ Jim Dunn,
But does this who thing strike anyone else as slightly childish? Somewhat an "in your face" move by the LCWR and an I'll show those uppity women move by the Cardinal?
Yes. Seriously, both sides need to grow (the eff) up, and take to heart what their boss has said: Whom are we going to evangelize if this is the way we act?
Can this be acceptable? Should it be accepted? If this is how things are going to work, what's left of the LCWR's autonomy?
The RNS article had to summarize what Müller said. I think the sisters will go with the last sentence that says Sartain will be involved in the discussion rather than that he will have the final word.
Had he been involved in the conversation as the Mandate envisions, I am confident that he would have added an important element to the discernment which then may have gone in a different direction. The decision taken by the LCWR during the ongoing implementation of the Doctrinal Assessment is indeed regrettable and demonstrates clearly the necessity of the Mandate's provision that speakers and presenters at major programs will be subject to approval by the Delegate. I must therefore inform you that this provision is to be considered fully in force. I do understand that the selection of honorees results from a process, but this case suggests that the process is itself in need of reexamination. I also understand that plans for this year's Assembly are already at a very advanced stage and I do not see the need to interrupt them. However, following the August Assembly, it will be the expectation of the Holy See that Archbishop Sartain have an active role in the discussion about invited speakers and honorees.


text:
— The High & Dry Bluegrass Festival runs today through Sunday on a ranch east of Bend. (In fact, it has already begun.) Read our story on one of the bands playing there, Ashland pickers Eight Dollar Mountain, and find the main-stage schedule while you're there, too.
— Bend-raised and Portland-based singer-songwriter Sara Jackson-Holman will celebrate the release of her electro-poppy sophomore album "Cardiology" with a show tonight at Greenwood Playhouse. Here's my story on how the new album got to be the way it is.
— Norah Jones played Bend's Les Schwab Amphitheater on Wednesday night and was terrific. Read my review of the concert and be sure to check out The Bulletin photographer Rob Kerr's photos of the show and the scene that night.
Also in this week's music section: Michael Franti & Spearhead, Zoe Muth and the Lost High Rollers, Jet West, Hooves, BrownChicken BrownCow StringBand, Mosley Wotta, Necktie Killer and more.


text:
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Hi Parents of Preemies;
Just wanted to let you know that Tuesday, November 18 is Prematurity Awareness Day.
Have any of you recieved a blue wrist band to show support? If you have one please where it on November 18th. If you don't have one check with your local March-of-Dimes www.marchofdimes.com to get one. Maybe in 2004 we can put together a Preeclampsia walk-a-thon team across the nation. Maybe some way Preeclampsia Foundation can get a little funding from this walk-a-thon.
What do you think?
p.s-November 18th is also my 35th birthday and this would be a great way to celebrate.
Let me know what you think


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It has been three month and I am very happy my Turkey Neck is gone. At 71, I was seeing the extra neck every time I looked in the mirror. It has been driving me crazy. Lifestyle Lift worked for me and has change my life. I now have to get another drivers license because my looks have changes that much. Call me a happy camper in the Northwest. more
"I Am So Glad I Did This - Seattle, WA"
It took about 2 hours. I was comfortable and actually dozed during most of the surgery. I love the results. It has been 3 months now and I am doing fine. I am a nurse and my husband a retired M.D. We both felt the professionalism and care was excellent at Lifestyle Lift. more
Ok, it wasn't fun by any definition, but I didn't expect an operation to be fun. It hurt, I looked awful for 2 full weeks, during which I also had bandages wrapped around my head, then I slept in a sitting position for another 2 weeks. Was it worth it? Oh yeah, and then some! My double chin is gone, my neck looks great, and the scars are barely visible-just faint pink lines on my... more
"Not Worth It - FAIL - Seattle, WA"
I Wanted to get rid of my "turkey neck". Drank the Kook Aid in their promotions. Took much longer than expected to heal and they messed up my earlobes. After just 6 MONTHS, my turkey neck is coming back. Not worth it . . . doesn't last. more
"Lifestyle Lift Rip-Off - Wrinkles..."
No pros. I could have slapped the money down on their counter and walked away, looking very much the same, less the scars. Please read why I would not recommend for details. My experience with Lifestyle Lift has been an interesting journey. I first learned about Lifestyle Lift through their TV ads, showing clients with remarkable results of before and after pictures as well as video of... more
"Lifestyle Lift Results - Very Happy"
Two weeks out from surgery, still some bruising and lumpiness, but nothing unexpected. I'm already thrilled with what I see. I can't believe the difference it made in my neck and jowls. Highly recommend Dr S and the staff at Seattle Lifestyle Lift. Very professional and caring, clearly explained everything. I think the key is to have realistic expectations of recovery, bruising etc... more
"Lifestyle Lift - No Pain, Very..."
Does not give you the results that they advertise. I would go for a face lift with a plastic surgeon, not this commercialized company. Once swelling goes down the sagging jowls, and skin under chin goes back to original look before surgery. I had read this on line in other people's review, and now I know for myself it is true. Wish I had listen to their advice. If it is too good to be... more
"LSL Plus Neck Firming - I Have a New..."
I had the LSL plus the neck firming Feb. 6, 2010. I love the new look. I'd lost a lot of weight and my turkey neck was horrible.I had no problem with pain, my meds were very adequate and someone was there for me with my questions. The only concern that I might have would be more education before the procedure. I had expected to be up and at it much sooner than I was. more
"I Was Ripped Off for $4000!!!"
I underwent the Lifestyle Lift procedure and my before and after pictures are exactly the same. I was infuriated at the nonresults and after reviewing my file, discovered that I had initialed statements on the Lifestyle Lift contract that said basically they do not guarantee any particular results. I then vaguely remembered seeing these statements during my initial consultation and asked the more


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The Level 1 Alcohol, Drug and Substance Abuse Course (A.D.S.A.C.), required to those who have had driving privileges suspended or revoked due to a DUI, DWI, APC or other drug/alcohol related misdemeanor or felony charge, will be presented by Kiamichi Council on Alcoholism and/or Other Drug Abuse, Inc. Individuals who have had only one alcohol or drug related drivers license suspension, prior to July 1, 2003, may attend the Level 1 course. Individuals, who were charged AFTER July 1, 2003, should contact Kiamichi Council prior to registering for the course. The course has a state-mandated fee of $150.00, and runs from 6:00 p.m. until 9:30 p.m. on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday evenings, in Hugo on July 25th, 26th and 27th at 308 E. Jefferson. Attendance is required for all three (3) sessions.
The next 24 Hour course for Level II and III, will begin at 6:00 p.m. on July 23, 2012 at 308 East Jefferson in Hugo. The state requires that this course be presented in two-hour sessions, two days each week, for six weeks. Cost for this course is $360.00. ALL FEES MUST BE PAID IN FULL BY THE BEGINNING OF THE FIRST CLASS. For more information, a 2012 Course Schedule, or registration please contact 580-286-3301 or 580-212-9175.
Kiamichi Council and staff are state-certified to administer the Alcohol, Drug, Substance Abuse Assessment/ Evaluation that is required prior ti the reinstatement of a suspended or revoked driver's license. ADSAC (DUI) Assessment must be done prior to class attendance for those arrested after July 1, 2003. There is a separate fee for this service, also mandated by state law. Due to time restraints for assessors, Assessment Fees Must Be Paid In Full Before Appointment Can Be Scheduled.
For more information or to schedule appointment for ADSAC or an Assessment, contact the nearest Kiamichi Council office; Idabel: 580-286-3301; Hugo: 580-326-7862; or Durant: 580-924-6692. After Hours Call: 580-212-9175.


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What do a young Philippine clothing designer, an American social networker, an Indian medic, an Ethiopian health care worker and a Nigerian farmer have in common? They are all winners of the Rolex Young Laureates Awards for Enterprise, 2010.
January 10, 2011 - 1:04pm
January 10, 2011 - 12:56pm
The Ecological Society of America (ESA) held its first ever Ecology and Education summit to address environmental literacy on October 14–15 in Washington, D.C. The summit, "Environmental Literacy for a Sustainable World," was co-chaired by Dr. Meg Lowman, Nature Research Center Director at the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences and ESA's Vice-President for Education and Diversity.
January 7, 2011 - 5:42pm
There's patience, and then there's patience. It took Jackie Orsulak 10 years to get the photo that won the Grand Prize in this year's Wildlife in North Carolina photo competition. Her photo, along with 30 others, will be on display at the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences from January 7 through March 31.
January 6, 2011 - 5:54pm
From the far jungles of Vietnam *Rhacophorus vampyrus* — the Vampire Flying Frog — has emerged as a strange new species of frog, recently discovered by Australian Museum scientist Dr Jodi Rowley along with NC Museum of Natural Sciences' curator of herpetology Dr Bryan Stuart and their scientific colleagues at the University of Science, Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam.
December 2, 2010 - 2:17pm
Dr. Margaret Lowman, Director of the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences' Nature Research Center, has been awarded a Fulbright Senior Specialist award to travel to India in January 2011.
December 2, 2010 - 2:07pm
The newest exhibit at the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences' Nature Art Gallery opens Friday, December 3 and runs through January 2, 2011. Trees of Life is an exhibit of black and white photography by Roger Powell, Professor of Ecology and Animal Behavior at North Carolina State University in the department of Biology.
November 30, 2010 - 11:20am
Museum presentation takes unique look at rainforest biodiversity
November 15, 2010 - 11:04am
Live interactive discussion connects Exploris Middle School students in Raleigh with students around the world; Dean Kamen, Sally Ride and others to participate
November 15, 2010 - 7:00am
Approximately 100 people attended the Topping Out ceremony for the Nature Research Center, the new 80,000-square-foot wing of the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences' dedicated to bringing scientific research into the public eye. The ceremony culminated in the placing of a live eastern red cedar tree on top of the building's highest point ...
November 9, 2010 - 1:14pm
For two weeks in November, Museum coordinator of teacher education Mike Dunn and Cleveland County science teacher Beverly Owens will join a team of scientists to explore a deep-sea coral ecosystem that dwarfs the shallow reefs off the Florida Keys.


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Grey's Anatomy
Grey's Anatomy Creator Shonda Rhimes on "Taking Back the Show" From Fans (VIDEO)
Grey's Anatomy creator Shonda Rhimes has always spoken up about her fans, and she's been doing it a lot more lately. Yesterday, she addressed a fan who asked about the prolific gay characters on her shows, and now, she's speaking to Oprah about "taking back the show" from shippers.
"The fans are so vocal and they're so serious," Shonda told Oprah on Oprah's Next Chapter this weekend. "The MerDers just want to see Meredith [Ellen Pompeo] and Derek [Patrick Dempsey] happy, and the CrOwens want to see Cristina [Sandra Oh] and Owen [Kevin McKidd] happy. And they're all online and they're all really vocal, and I suddenly realized we weren't growing at all."
Watch Shonda's surprisingly candid proclamation about taking the focus off the ships in order to grow below!
Catch the next new episode of Grey's Anatomy on Thursday, December 13 at 9 p.m. ET/PT on ABC.
Satisfy your Grey's Anatomy addiction: Like us on Facebook and Follow us on Twitter and Tumblr.


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Courses: Historical Issues/Clinical Dev (PSYCB612001)
Fall 2007
Class Number: 1397
Familiarizes students with 20th century developments in clinical
psychology and with the 18th and 19th century social and intellectual
trends from which they emerged. Topics include: Mesmerism and the
rise of dynamic psychiatry in Europe and America; changing patterns in
the institutionalization of the insane; the Bost Group (James, Prince,
Sidis) and the development of abnormal psychology and psychotherapy;
the American reception of psychoanalysis; the Mental Hygiene and Child
Guidance movements; the growth of psychometrics; personality theories
and theorists; and trends in the professionalization of clinical
psychology after WWII.
Fulfills: Class Nbr: 1397
Taught By
Wozniak,Robert H.
Bryn Mawr, BYC106
Meeting Times
W 4:00pm-6:00pm


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Plus Blog
January 14, 2009
Wednesday, January 14, 2009
Fear of maths spawns rampant rabbits
Here's something all mathematicians know instinctively: changing a parameter in a dynamical system, even if it's only by a small amount, can have all sorts of non-obvious consequences. Some conservationists, however, don't seem to have learnt that lesson yet: by removing 160 feral cats from Macquarie Island to protect burrowing birds, a team of conservationists caused the rabbit population to boom from 4000 in the year 2000 to 130,000 in 2006. The rabbits have now demolished up to 40% of the island's vegetation, which may never recover. Cleaning up the mess may cost up to $16 million.
According to experts, a simple risk assessment exercise could have prevented the disaster. "We need a culture change," Hugh Possingham of the University of Queensland told New Scientist. "It's a generalisation, but people who do environmental work are often adverse to mathematics, and so avoid quantitative risk assessments."
Read more about this story in New Scientist.
posted by Plus @ 5:13 PM
January 13, 2009
Tuesday, January 13, 2009
How do you persuade a nation that basic maths skills are just as important as being able to read and write? You put a price tag on them. This is what the accounting firm KPMG has done in a report published last week. The firm estimated that the soring number of people who leave school without adequate numeracy skills could cost the UK taxpayer up to £2.4 billion every year.
Labels: Latest news
posted by Plus @ 12:38 PM
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January 9, 2009
Friday, January 09, 2009
Happy new year from Plus!
Thanks to gord at mighty wombat for these!
posted by Plus @ 11:00 PM
0 Comments:
December 23, 2008
Tuesday, December 23, 2008
"Oh god, I hope not," was the reaction of a student when author Mario Livio asked the title question of his latest book at a lecture, and it's a reaction that's likely to be replicated by many unsuspecting bookshop browsers. But despite its frightening title, the book's appeal could not be broader. All that's required to enjoy this fascinating read is a capacity to marvel at the mysteries of nature and humankind's attempts to understand them — this is "popular mathematics", or rather "popular philosophy", in the true sense of the word.
posted by Plus @ 12:19 PM
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December 23, 2008
Tuesday, December 23, 2008
Combining a love of maths with a successful acting career
Victoria Gould has always known she would be an actor, and went straight from studying arts at school to running her own theatre company. But she eventually had to come clean about her guilty secret - she loves maths - and has since managed to combine a career as a research mathematician and teacher with a successful acting career on television and in theatre. In this, the first of a two part podcast, Victoria tells Plus why she needs to use boths sides of her brain.
This podcast accompanies the career interview from issue 49 of Plus.
Stay tuned for the second part of this podcast, where Plus talks to Victoria and Professor Marcus du Sautoy about Complicite's recent theatre production of A disappearing number.
Labels: podcast
posted by Plus @ 2:23 PM
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December 16, 2008
Tuesday, December 16, 2008
The UK Statistics Authority (UKSA) has done its bit this week in keeping the government honest, at least when it comes to its use of statistics. Within 24 hours of the Home Office releasing unverified and selective statistics, despite the protests of government statisticians, Sir Michael Scholar (chair of the UKSA) wrote a public letter to the Prime Minister's Office criticising the government's actions. The quick response from the independent body responsible for ensuring the quality of official statistics generated a lot of media attention, not only highlighting the mistakes made in this instance, but also showing the power the UKSA may wield to stop the misuse of statistics.
Labels: Latest news
posted by Plus @ 5:20 PM
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Outdoors Vt.: GMP seeks nominees for Zetterstrom AwardBy Darren Marcy
Staff Writer | February 07,2013Steve Costello / GMP
Meeri Zetterstrom probably had no intention of becoming a standard bearer for conservation work when she took up the plight of her beloved osprey at Lake Arrowhead on the border of Milton and Georgia.
But after Vermont's osprey had nearly been extirpated from the state nearly a half-century earlier, Zetterstrom was among the first to watch the osprey return to Arrowhead.
And she knew they needed help.
So she started poking and prodding the Fish & Wildlife Department.
By 1988 the state wildlife department had partnered with Central Vermont Public Service to install artificial nesting platforms and create buffer zones to protect the nesting efforts. Green Mountain Power started similar efforts.
They also started working to educate the public about the plight of the osprey and producing educational materials.
One of those early converts was Steve Costello, who at the time worked for CVPS, and who worked with Zetterstrom on osprey conservation.
Today, with the two companies merged, Costello is a vice president with GMP and still a fan of the osprey and involved in conservation efforts. During warmer months, he can often be found floating in his kayak hoping for another photo of an osprey to add to his growing collection of spectacular shots.
"Meeri had an innate ability to connect people with nature and explain the importance of conservation and wildlife preservation," Costello said. "She inspired me personally and helped start and lead a statewide conversation that led directly to the preservation and recovery of ospreys, and ultimately their removal from Vermont's endangered species list."
Zetterstrom's dogged pursuit of osprey recovery paid off. About a decade after the Fish & Wildlife Department and CVPS and GMP began their efforts, the first osprey chick in memory hatched and fledged at Lake Arrowhead.
Seven years after that, the osprey was removed from the Vermont Endangered Species List.
Zetterstrom died in 2010, but her legacy lives on and GMP honors that legacy every year by rewarding someone in her name for their environmental efforts.
Three Vermonters have been honored and a fourth will be named this year as Green Mountain Power awards the 2013 GMP-Zetterstrom Environmental Award.
Nominations are being taken for an individual, business, group or nonprofit that has made a significant contribution to Vermont's environment.
The winner will receive a $2,500 donation to the winner's cause
For the complete story, see Sunday's Rutland Herald.MORE IN This Just InThe family of a Connecticut man who was killed in a car accident on Route 4 last Friday night is... Full StoryAssociated Press Full StoryIt seems like I just started to warm up from last winter and I see back-to-school displays. Full Story
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- RICHARD'S POOR ALMANACK: On this day 1739, 'Richard Palmer' identified in prison at York Castle as the notorious outlaw DICK TURPIN; IN 1836, Battle of the Alamo begins near San Antonio de Bexar, Texas; 1896, the Tootsie Roll invented by LEO HIRSCHFELD.
- RICHARD'S POOR ALMANACK: On this day in 1472, Orkney, Shetland islands put up as collateral by Norway to Scotland in lieu of dowry for MARGARET OF DENMARK on her marriage with JAMES III, king of Scotland; 1962, JOHN GLENN first American to orbit Earth.
- TOMORROW'S HEADLINES TODAY: City mayoral candidates debate campaign issues; Hartford, Conn., woman still missing; Neal Goswami reports attempts to legislate suicide; local woman loses 100 pounds through TOPS program.
- RICHARD'S POOR ALMANACK: On this day in 1878, JOHN TUNSTALL murdered near Lincoln, New Mexico, by the outlaw JESSE EVANS; in 1930, ELM FARM OLLIE first cow to fly in aircraft, first to be milked airborne; 1955, nuke test WASP; '79, snow in Sahara.
- TOMORROW'S HEADLINES TODAY: Rutland Herald News Editor Alan J. Keays and staff writer Gordon Dritschilo discuss stories planned for the February 18, 2015, edition of the newspaper: Winter budgets maxed, legal marijuana, Springfield bank job, USPS slowdown
- RICHARD'S POOR ALMANACK: On this day in 1249 AD, ANDRE of LONGJUMEAU is dispatched by LOUIS IX of France to meet the KHAGAN, ruler of the Mongol Empire; in 1804, during 1st Barbary War, STEPHEN DECATUR scuttles the pirate-held USS Philadelphia in Tripoli.


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Click Here to Watch the Whole Video in HD at Broke Straight Boys
These boys are very hot and very straight but most of all they are broke. Rather then lose their apartment, girlfriend, etc. they do sexual things with other guys for some quick cash.
Our resident Pizza boy is back and this time. Now that we got him warmed up we threw him in another shoot. Tips aren't very good but this Pizza Guy is getting a huge tip after this delivery.
Pixels: 320X240 | Bitrate: 350K
Pixels: 640X480 | Bitrate: 700K
It was so hot when he tasted hisnown cum damn hes sexy!
Mike sounds like a big 'mo
FUCK YEAH!! Love to rim tatt boy`s hairy ass while he strokes that huge cock!!!
Anthony is HOTTTT
i want this video clips now
Pizza Boy is cute. Like his hairy legs.


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Starting from
Harrah's Mardi Gras Presidential Suite
What Makes This Room Different
Come play and unwind at Harrah's Las Vegas. Adorned in neutral tones, contemporary black and white graphics and cherry red accents, the Mardi Gras Presidential offers a hip, modern feel. Each 1,200+ square-foot suite features one bedroom, living room, dining room, wet bar and entertainment area with stereo system. Whether relaxing in the suite's whirlpool tub or entertaining friends in the spacious living areas, you'll experience never-ending fun in this Las Vegas suite. Need Help Booking this Suite? Call 866-320-9855.
Room Features
Room Amenities
Square Footage : 1200-1500
Smoking/Non-Smoking : Both
View : Yes
Decor : Red/Black
Sheets : White Duvet
Mattress : Plush Pillow Top
Workspace : Yes
Furniture : Sitting Area w/ sofa and Dining Table
Window Treatments : Yes
Bath Products : Gilchrist & Soames Bath Amenities
Makeup Mirror : Yes
Whirlpool : Yes
Shower Head : Yes
Robes : Yes
Television : Yes 2
Telephone : Yes
iPod Stereo : Yes
Alarm Clock : Yes
Iron w/ Board : Yes
Coffee Maker : Yes


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|Sterling Running Necklaces
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Our very first product was the BibFOLIO, a personalized album for race bibs, which was born out of frustration of seeing all those hard-earned race bibs just shoved in a drawer. The Bibfolio has since grown to a full line of albums and accessories that enhance the archiving and enjoyment of race bibs. All the products you discover are designed and manufactured by our talented and passionate team here at Gone For a Run. So, we invite you to run over to www.GoneForaRun.com and enjoy our collection of gifts for runners, thoughtfully designed by runners!Read More
I've been a customer of yours for a few years now. I just wanted to take a moment and recognize the great products and customer service your company has. I recently purchased a bamboo iPhone 5 case and I made it custom with the word "Relentless 26.2", the case arrived today and I just have to say this is by far one of the nicest and sharp looking cases I've ever seen.
It's items like this that sets your company apart from others and you are always first to market with new things. It's because of this I will continue to be a customer of yours and I will spread the word to my friends and family.
~ Richard
A percentage of GONE FOR A RUN profits will be donated to our 'Run With Us' program that promotes awareness and support for future and current runners.
Copyright © Gone for a Run. All Rights Reserved.


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RGZ10111 In Stock
This divine designer inspired diamond cubic zirconia rose ring draws the eyes with its flower design and white cubic zirconias. The rhodium finished sterling silver carries a life all of it's own as the light shows off that special luster. The 1mm cubic zirconias that are sprinkled throughout the ring make this a diamond cubic zirconia rose ring that any lover of flowers should own.
Eve's Addiction.com wants you to be a happy customer. We want you to be completely satisfied with the sterling silver jewelry that you receive from us, as we only sell high quality silver and cubic zirconia cz jewelry. We do understand that you may not like your purchase for some reason.
You may return or exchange your jewelry within 60 days of purchase if you are not satisfied with it. The jewelry must be returned in its original condition for a refund or exchange. Engraved, personalized, photo, monogram, name and initial, chocolate and clearance items are not returnable or exchangeable.


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BR10421 In Stock Absolutely No Delay on Personalization!
This stainless steel gold round tag bracelet is truly a classic! Available in 7.5 inches long, this bracelet features a sturdy lobster claw clasp, and a 3/4 inch round tag. The links of this bracelet feature a soft matte finish, while the tag itself is a polished gold stainless steel. Pair this with the matching stainless steel gold round tag necklace for a complete look that you'll just love.
Eve's Addiction.com wants you to be a happy customer. We want you to be completely satisfied with the sterling silver jewelry that you receive from us, as we only sell high quality silver and cubic zirconia cz jewelry. We do understand that you may not like your purchase for some reason.
You may return or exchange your jewelry within 60 days of purchase if you are not satisfied with it. The jewelry must be returned in its original condition for a refund or exchange. Engraved, personalized, photo, monogram, name and initial, chocolate and clearance items are not returnable or exchangeable.