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|52 posts found
I'll admit, when I first got wind of the details of TESO, I was pissed and thought "Insta-Fail."
I had got it in my head that I'd be playing Oblivion/Skyrim/Morrowind but with others running around. Seeing the screens and hearing about turn based combat instantly turned me off.
Then I tried thinking about it in a different way. Maybe it won't be a BAD game if it does certain things right and gives you an Elder Scrolls feel to it as well.
Rules they can't break or it's going to fail big time:
I know that the initial shock of how DIFFERENT gameplay wise ESO will be than single player ES games is hard to shake, but that doesn't mean that this can't turn out to be a GOOD mmorpg. Now that I've thought about it a bit, got over the fact that I'm not playing Skyrim online, there is potential for this to be a really good MMORPG. Yeah, it won't rattle the world by being 100% different than WoW, but as long as they are smart about innovating within the genre and taking a hard look at what sucks in MMOs and remove it, this will be a good game.
About the bullet points. Gear grinds are horrible. I know that in TES lore there is magical gear that you wear to improve yourself as an adventurer. That needs to be in the game. But gear that provides so much power that someone with more skill but less gear stats loses every time to them should never exist. I hope Matt Froir (or whatever the DAoC dev's name is) learned from his mistakes with ToA. That expansion alone killed DAoC.
If they split off Tamriel into tiny zones that have multiple instances, that will kill the epic feel of the Elder Scrolls universe. I am most worried about this point because of the Hero engine, and SWTOR felt VERY small, despite the fact that it's span reached multiple planets. When I imagined myself playing SWTOR before it came out, I was thinking there would be multiple, HUGE planets to explore and that made me giddy. Turns out they were tiny, instanced zones, and that sucked really bad. I know that technological limitations will keep games from being completely open world for a long time, so splitting the game up between provinces and cities with a loading screen is fine. But damnit, if when I'm running across Skyrim in ESO, it shouldn't be broken down in load screens, and should be just like running through Skyrim in TESV.
One of the things I love about TES games is how natural, rewarding, and awesome questing is. If MMOs always featured quests like the ones in TES games, the quest era in MMOs wouldn't be stale like it is now. From what I read, there aren't quest hubs in this game which is great. But participating in the open world quests with other players better be natural, with equal rewards, and without forced grouping. It should be a lot like GW2.
The 3 faction PvP in ESO is what first caught my eye. As I mentioned before, ToA killed DAoC with it's need to participate in PvE trials and farm artifacts to stay relevant. Here's some obvious advice to developers that they seem to forget: PvPers want to PvP, not PvE then PvP. If I have to go do X raid to get X sword to not be at a major disadvantage in PvP, then forget it. This goes for stupid, pointless stats like TOR had with expertise. Keep it to +health, +magicka, +stamina, +carryweight, and resists, just like Skyrim.
Skill rotations, which were developed so retards could play MMOs, need to die. If Skyrim's combat is not going to be in ESO, then it needs to be like GW2. I played 30 hours in the BWE, and I've never had as much fun with combat in a game. I don't want ESO to COPY GW2, just like I don't want it to copy WoW, or any other game. But if it is going to be similar to one of those two games, make it GW2, not WoW.
Competeing in PvE. This is another thing that GW2 is getting right. Looks like ESO won't have quest hubs, but that doesn't matter at all if I'm clearing out a dungeon to rescue the hot Breton chick, and as I'm fighting the last mob, some jackass comes and swoops her away from me and gets the credit for the quest. GW2's lack of PvE competition is one of it's biggest assets, where I actually enjoy seeing other players come along. This is how it should be, and if ESO reverts to old competition-based PvE, it's not something that I can overlook now.
Hell, if they can pull this off, this could actually be a really good game. Sure, it won't play or be exactly like Skyrim, but that doesn't mean it's destined to fail. BUT, it has to do a lot right now to not come off as another WoW clone. I hope it will succeed in doing this stuff right, but I won't be buying this game until I know that it does. I'm not getting Biowared again.
Feel free to add, subtract, multiply, divide from what you think ESO has to do right, now that we know it's not Skyrim online, to succeed.
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Novice Member
Joined: 11/01/04
+1, good post, good idea. I am honestly going to do this now; imagine it as DAoC 2. With the elder scrolls IP behind it, DAoC 2 is sure to be a success! :-)
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/21/11
The combat sounds like gw2 limited abilities from a pool, abilities dependent on which weapon equipped, no trinity, no agro.
Also has the stamina system from tes for sprinting and blocking, where blocking gives cc immunity.
Also has this finese bar which sounds somewhat like the morale bar in warhammer.
Also has overlapping ability combos and a state system like gw2 & tsw
Novice Member
Joined: 10/20/05
Originally posted by reap3rzx
You'd have a point if TOA actually killed DAOC (it didn't, subscribers increased) and you actually didn't have to PVE before TOA to PvP (you did, be it for gold, crafting, or in SI times, frankly better weapons then anything crafted you could make)
Originally posted by Xsorus
Obviously, in the short term, ToA increased sales of DAoC. The PvE portion of ToA was actually really cool. The Trials were very fun raids.
The main draw of DAoC though was always RvR. When players started to realize that those PvE clowns in their shiny artis were wasting them even though they had higher RR they started to get pissed. Or, the fact that ToA became a required expansion to keep up with the power curve kept sales up. In the long run, it frustrated people and did a lot to bleed DAoC's subscribers.
Novice Member
Joined: 2/06/12
sorry this game wont be Daoc2 since GW2 is already considered as daoc2 it will have to best GW2 to be Daoc3. Actually TOA was very good pve just too much grind like Aion, bad mistake from the DEV to think they can make ppl stay longer if they make the game more grinding.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/21/11
Originally posted by Games888
if they get rid of the 2 week shuffle and the stupid anominity in pvp. It will be daoc2.
Novice Member
Joined: 10/20/05
Originally posted by reap3rzx
PVE clowns in their Shiny Artifacts? other then the fact most high RR players were the first to get the Shiny Artifacts, I can flat out tell you there is no artifact you could get at Low Realm Rank that put you in comparison to me on a High Rank character. Nor could having those Artifacts make you remotely good at PvP. Here is how DAOC worked in balance terms, you had your Class, then your Realm Rank, then Artifacts in terms of what caused ya to win fights. Artifacts went completely out the window in terms of 8v8, as in, I don't care how many artifacts you had, If you sucked at 8v8, You weren't going to kill a good group. Here is an example of how much Artifacts didn't make a difference, You could take an Enchanter, give him fully player crafted gear at the time, make him RR10, and put him against say a RR1 Thane, with Artifacts out the ass, and the Enchanter would absolutely kill that thane 100% of the time with Zero Effort.
TOA had nothing to do with the bleeding of Subscribers, that came from the thing called WoW, which damn near killed every Fantasy MMO on the market at the time.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 3/21/11
Originally posted by reap3rzx
hey SWTOR did all of these and it failed big time.
i think doing these things is what makes games fail because these things are old and boring. these things will be ultra old and boring in 2013.
Novice Member
Joined: 7/13/10
I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.
Originally posted by wormywyrm
After I saw ESO three faction pvp for 2013 - I immediately forgot about every other title on the market. What is ever going to compare to Elder Scrolls Lore, Elder Scrolls real medieval graphics (no silly cartoons or anime races and classes), and finally, pvp with three factions - FFS...finally.
There is a god (goddess).
Apprentice Member
Joined: 12/02/10
I don't object to a DAoC 2, I just object to the wasted opportunity for a Skyrim style sandbox mmo. The mmo world needed that more than DAaC 2, which we will get elements of in GW2, TSW and PS2 anyway.
A massive loss is not made up for by a smaller win, not with a constant reminder of that massive loss in the game's title.
This bizarre hybrid of DAoC pvp with TES lore may suit some people, but it wasn't what most of us expected, wanted or felt the industry needed. It's premature to see all that much positive in this, but we know more than enough to see that so many elements that defined this IP are abandoned, that is why a mostly negative reaction feels far more appropriate.
And quite frankly some of the attempts to defend this come off as very counter-intuitive, even with my psychology training I cannot understand some people.
Joined: 11/07/08
Remember though, that DAOC was a simplified (some say dumbed down) version of EQ.
Does that mean TESO is going to be a simplified version of WoW or an even easier version of SWTOR?
Because that sounds like a horrible game
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Hard Core Member
Joined: 8/30/04
I hear that sometimes but since when has EQ a good PvP-System that is even today only matched by not more than one other game?
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Originally posted by bishbosh
You must have not read my post, lol.
Originally posted by zevni78
I agree with you, it is massively disappointing that it's not what we wanted to to be.
There could be plenty of reasons for that though, including current tech.
What I'm trying to do is help people see that, just because this isn't the step we were looking for, it could still be a very good MMO and still stick to what makes Elder Scrolls, Elder Scrolls, which is the sense of getting lost in a massive world and good lore. I'm just trying to say that POV, combat, and that stuff didn't make Elder Scrolls, so there still might be a chance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but every TES game had levels, so it's not surprising that TESO has levels.
Advanced Member
Joined: 11/28/07
Originally posted by Xsorus
Way to give a completely unbalanced example. Put two characters at RR10 and give one artifacts while the other just has player made gear. Player with artifacts has a significant advantage. That was the point. It forced people to go PvE when they didn't want to or they would fall behind the curve. You shouldn't be forced to PvE in order to PvP as effectively. Way to have the point go right over your head.
Advanced Member
Joined: 9/28/04
Originally posted by reap3rzx
It is not possible for them to give "an ES feel" if its an MMORPG that is nothing more than an TES game online. The moment you start throwing in MMO aspects like dailies, levels, teired gear and add it to the fact there will be no player mods you already changed the game so much that you are basically just taking the TES name, and USING it to create hype and try to sucker in enough TES players into buying the game.
If the game was being made by BETHESDA...
If BETHESDA was making an TES game built around online capabilites...
Then you could have an TES feeling TESO.
All this smacks of taking a beloved series of games and trying to rape MMO players by using its NAME. If it isnt anything like what came before, why USE THE NAME? Just call it something else since its NOTHING like what the players have come to expect.
Hey I know, lets take Dungeons and Dragons and throw out the rules, classes, spells and everything else people expect but call use the story setting anyway instead of calling the land Dayrun we will still call it Faerun, instead of calling this guy blizzit we will still call him Drizzit...cause they need those names/places cause they have no imagination themselves to do a COMPLETE job and make up for the lack of creativity on their own.
And that,is the scariest thing of them all. Enough creativity to make it unrecognizable while still needing to keep just enough to leech from the popularity of it.
"I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Novice Member
Joined: 8/02/08
I am not a hater, I call it like I see it.
Wheres the hardcore DAOC fans? would they see this as a DAOC2 from the leaks? I never played daoc so im not sure how it played, but just off the top of my head: just because teso has 3 factions doesnt make it daoc2. I think thats the only resemblance I see between the two, I could be wrong, because my mmo history radius does not extend to much of daoc.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Novice Member
Joined: 2/06/12
Originally posted by toddze
the reason they said that is b/c the guy who made Daoc is in charge of making this game and no he wasnt part of warhammer team.
Novice Member
Joined: 10/05/03
Gaming should be about fun, not gender equality.
I rather have Skyrim Online but an immersive, open ended MMORPG world made with a triple A budget is a fantasy, I guess.
When will the endless stream of simplified WoW clones ever end?
And no, DAoC wasn't all that great. It did one thing good and that was three faction PvP. The rest was a watered down version of Everquest.


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The National Chinese Language Conference (NCLC) is dedicated to enhancing the nation's capacity for the teaching and learning of Chinese language and culture by sharing cutting-edge practices and examples with educators and policymakers.
8th annual National Chinese Language Conference from April 16–18 welcomed 1,200 educators from across the U.S. and abroad including China, the UK, Singapore, Canada, Trinidad, Jamaica and elsewhere. Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter sent a congratulatory letter to the forum that was read as the conference opened, in which he applauded Asia Society's efforts in "strengthening American and Chinese students' knowledge and understanding of the world and preparing them for productive global citizenry." The Carter Center's China Program Director Yawei Liu read Carter's letter, thanking the College Board and Asia Society for education programs that help Chinese and American students better understand the world and become productive citizens. "These efforts are particularly significant to me, as it was Deng Xiaoping and I who opened the door for our countries' students to learn about one another's culture," Carter's letter read. Four plenary sessions featured young American artists—comedians, erhu player, pianists, singer and calligrapher dazzled the audience with their Chinese language and artistic talents; celebrated learners whose lives and careers have been transformed by the study of Chinese language and culture; highlighted outstanding teachers as stars in the field; and five university presidents on their vision for global education vis-a-vis partnership with China. Over two and half days, the conference played host to nearly 100 sessions, workshops, school visits, and private events, as well as 43 exhibitors. The official conference app m.core-apps.com/nclc15 has close to 1,700 users. See conference highlights and photos and videos.
To browse the conference program, session descriptions, and available session presentations, download the conference mobile app. For desktop and laptop users, you may browse the same information here. The 2015 National Chinese Language Conference program book can be downloaded here.

subset: commoncrawl


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Still uncomfortable, 40 years after 'Roe'
Mollie Wilson O'Reilly January 22, 2013 - 12:46pm
Gail Collins is my favorite New York Times columnist (in, yes, a not-very-crowded field). She's funny and she's smart; she does the "writing lightly about serious matters" thing so well it makes me wonder all the more that the same paper should publish someone as bad at that very thing as Maureen Dowd. (She's also good at politely telling David Brooks why he's full of it.) When I read Collins carefully I can see the impressive amount of work that has gone into a seemingly breezy 800 words, but the result is never effortful. She's a master.The only time my fondness for Collins takes a hit is when she writes about abortion, and not only because we disagree. On that subject I find she writes, like so many other progressives, as though there are no difficult questions left, and support for unrestricted access to abortion is the only decent position a right-thinking, non-woman-hating person can hold. Obviously I'm a bit insulted by that approach. But I'm also disappointed whenever I encounter it. It doesn't sound like an earnest attempt to grapple with a tough issue; it sounds to me like an attempt to convince oneself that there is no more thinking to be done. Coming from either side, self-satisfied absolutism is a dead end.A couple weeks ago, ahead of today's Roe v. Wade anniversary, Collins published a column with the headline "The Woes of Roe." Somewhat ironically, Collins put her finger on an aspect of what I just described:
Americans are permanently uncomfortable with the abortion issue, and they respond most positively to questions that suggest it isnt up to them to decide anything.
But Collins did not acknowledge any of the reasons I can think of that people might still, all these years after Roe, be "uncomfortable" with abortion. Instead she catalogued the "crazy new rules" that are plaguing the nation's abortion clinics:
In Texas, the Legislature is considering a law that would require that all abortions be performed in ambulatory surgical centers. When the state passed that requirement for pregnancies beyond 16 weeks in 2004, every single clinic doing that procedure was forced to shut down. Only a handful managed to reopen in a state that encompasses more than 261,000 square miles.
It so happens that I read that column shortly after my own sixteenth week of pregnancy.
I had an ultrasound at sixteen weeks, and my husband came along we got a sitter for our older child because we knew from experience that it would be worth it. At sixteen weeks, we could see our new baby's face, start the predictions about whom he or she will look like. (We still don't know the sex, but only because we asked the technician not to tell us. At sixteen weeks we could have found that out, too.) We saw a spine, curling and uncurling; kicking legs; perfectly formed fingers and toes. "This baby is going to be a hand model!" the technician laughed, because every time she tried a new angle our baby flashed us a wave. We heard the heartbeat, stronger and louder than it was the first time I heard it, ten weeks earlier. We counted the chambers of the heart and studied the developing brain. Everything is as it should be, we were told. Our baby is healthy. And they gave us pictures to bring home, to hang on the fridge and show our family.With those images in my mind, I read that paragraph from Collins and thought, "It should be difficult to get an abortion after sixteen weeks." Sixteen weeks is a long time to be pregnant; a long time for a baby to grow. Within a day of that ultrasound I could feel my baby kicking. Is it any wonder that people remain uncomfortable with the idea that aborting a baby that far along should be a routine procedure? I can imagine situations in which a woman might feel compelled to end the life within her for example, if she received awful news about her child's health instead of the good news I was lucky enough to get. It's not a choice I would or could ever make, but I can understand it. But I can't see why making such a choice shouldn't require a lot of effort, at the very least. "Over the last 40 years," Collins complains, "women seeking abortions have been put through a lot of unnecessary trauma" like long trips to clinics, or being forced to have ultrasounds before aborting their babies. I guess I'm supposed to be thinking, "Those poor women," and if I were convinced that abortion had no moral dimension I suppose I would be able to see it that way. And I'm not ready to speak up in favor of any particular regulation, not without knowing the specifics. But in general, I found myself thinking again, "It should be hard."Collins, like a lot of prochoicers, has a gloomy sense that the abortion-rights movement is struggling more than it should be at this point in history. I'm not out to give advice to abortion advocates, but it does seem to me that the "abortion, to a right-thinking person, is no big deal" approach is never going to win the day. Too many people have had ultrasounds and not experienced them as trauma. Too many people are not ready to be told that their discomfort with abortion is just a matter of their not thinking about it the right way. It's true, as Collins writes, that even in a conservative state, voters will eventually object to "politicians messing with a womans private business." But I suspect it's also true that widespread discomfort about abortion is, as Collins herself says, permanent, and it seems to me that "the nervous, ambivalent, uncomfortable public" is going to stay that way so long as they find no room on either side of the abortion debate for the full range of things that they are nervous about.
Commenting Guidelines
I don't believe it either, but why is that? Why are they not morally equivalent? Isn't there a better reason than appearances?
Mollie,Thanks for writing this. So thoughtful, sensitive, measured and wise. You say all this far better than I could ever hope to.AA
Interesting op-ed in the NYT this morning by Kate Manning, "the author of a forthcoming novel, 'My Notorious Life,' about a 19th-century midwife."http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/22/opinion/leeches-lye-and-spanish-fly.ht...
Excellent. When will Collins and others admit that there are some circumstances where the choice for abortion is morally repellant? Most Americans sense this. Collins and the abortion for any reason crowd obviously do not.
William: I take it, then, that, in your mind, there are circumstances in which the choice for abortion is NOT morally repellant? (I happen to agree with that, but find it refreshing to find that implication printed here.)Which is/was more repellant: The Roe decision that has resulted in safer conditions for abortions, or the back alley/coat hanger abortions of the past for poor women, and jetting off to another country for women of means?
Mollie - so excruciatingly problematic. To quote Bill Clinton - it should be safe, legal, and rare. And the devil is in the details. IMO, focus needs to be on supporting folks such that the choice for abortion is way down on the list (rather than the time/effort made to recriminalize abortion and this also goes for the church).Recent stats from various research institutes state that the number one reason why women get abortions:- loneliness- economic reasons- lack of family/community supportIMO, difficult to justify abortions beyond the 1st trimester or earlier. Again, not sure reducing the number of clinics that provide women's healthcare in order to deny abortion is the best direction. Find the catholic pro-life and episcopal stances to be confused; missing the point; judgmental; condemnatory; legalistic. They are also contradictory given that birth control/contraception and abortion are entwined; that the episcopal ranks have a difficult time supporting women's health needs, etc.Always find that this simple question stops folks in their tracks - so, what happens when you recriminalize abortion for the mother, father, doctor?
According to the Pew Forum, people feel pretty much the same now about abortion as they did 40 years ago .... http://www.pewforum.org/Abortion/roe-v-wade-at-40.aspxIreland does criminalize abortion and the penalty for doctors is life in prison at hard labor, which perhaps leads to situations like that of the Indian woman who died there recently - doctors may tend to err on the side that keeps them safe rather than the patient.
@ Bill deHaasYou're right, abortion is the only sin for which the religious right gives women a pass. That is, they presume that anyone who commits burglary, arson, or murder of a BORN person knows exactly what he/she is doing, that it's wrong, and the perpetrator deserves whatever punishment is prescribed for the crime. But try to pin them down on why, if abortion is murder, the patient shouldn't be prosecuted, they make excuses: she didn't know what she was doing because she was brainwashed by greedy doctors, Planned Parenthood clerks, and liberal-media newspaper columnists. I've been pregnant three times and carried all three pregnancies to term, even though circumstances arose during each so that, were I not Catholic, I could easily have justified getting an abortion. So perhaps I should be relieved that the religious right would have given me a get-out-of-jail card on the grounds that I was too stupid to know I was committing murder. Instead I'm offended by their condescension. It's the same low opinion of women's intelligence that once denied them the right to vote.
People are uncomfortable about abortion and would rather change the subject because God's laws are written in our hearts. People are uncomfortable because they know at some level that they have been manipulated and brainwashed to have to say that abortion is a womans right. Even as they instinctively know that to support abortion is to support the taking of innocent human life and is therefore wrong. That someone should have the right to kill an unborn child because it is not healthy -is also an immoral position for any one to take. And that a professed christian could take it -shows the power of manipulation and propaganda. We would not say we have the right to deliberately kill innocent people for any other reason.How does the health status of an innocent already alive unborn being allow one to take their life?Is not the right to life inalienable as it is God given?How could a chrsitian believe otherwise? I don't get it except that such thinking is in fact indicitive of the power of propaganda-if enough "decent" people believe it-it must be good and true!.
We make excuses because it would disrupt the society and harm alot of people to have many women have to abandon their families to go to prison.It's not practical.That in no way means that the unborn are not alive and that it is right and just that abortion is legal.
Some people believe it is wrong to kill any person, whether they are innocent or not (death penalty) but maybe the reason someone can believe that and also not want abortion criminalized is that they haven't been convinced that an embryo or an early fetus is indeed a person.
It may not be a person[as it has no self awareness] but it is biologically a human and it is alive. That is sufficient for its' life to be protected. If being human means more then being genetically human and alive then it becomes arbitrary [what being human means]and therefore a human beings' life[the right to life] is no longer an inalienable right. And the concept "person" is also, as we see in euthansia issues, arbitrary.
Thank you, Mollie, for your thoughts on the abortion issue. You brought me back to 1982 when I was pregnant with my son. Then, ultrasounds were not that routine and usually were prescribed when there was some situation that needed to be explored. I remember being anxious yet when I saw the 2 month fetus, moving around with very obvious arms and legs, I thought: I can never be cavalier about abortion.I hope that I do not freak out anyone, but I seemed to hear the words, Dont worry, Mom, I want to be born. I did not actually hear those words but they crossed my mind. I thought: Now thats interesting. A mother is supposed to console her child and here was the child consoling his mother. Things worked out just fine and he was born seven months later. (He is journalist and writes for The Huffington Post - a shameless plug.)I do not understand how a woman can have an abortion. Yet, I cannot help thinking about the fact that I was in the committed relationship of marriage with enough resources to raise a child with no disability. So, I cannot be cavalier (I like that word.) about taking a position opposing abortion without taking into consideration the difficult choices that many other women have to make.
A person who is ill or in a vegetative state or whatever is still a person, just a person who is suffering from some impairment. An embryo or an early fetus has not yet become a person. The two cases seem different to me. People already do not have an inalienable right to life - both the present civil law and church guys like Thomas Aquinas support the killing of "non-innocent" humans.
Crystal --I have read that Aquinasthought that not only does the little creature become fully human only in stages (in fact, metaphysical it is a series of several little creatures!), he also said that that is was possible to die in stages. If this reversal is so, then the higher faculties and human soul might depart before the lower levels of life. I haven't actually read him on the subject. Wish I knew where he says this. It could have great ramifications in the debates about "end-of-life" treatment.
Rose Ellen Caminer is exactly right.
Ann,I saw this article that kind of touches on what you wrote ... Aquinas versus Locke and Descartes on the Human Person and End-of-Life Ethics ... but they seem to conclude that ... " for Aquinas, there is no such thing as a human non-person any more than there can be a red non-colored thing."I didn't really understand it very well ;)
So true: Abortion is the one issue progressives seem willing to close down both conversation and minds over. As one who's been so treated, I can tell you it seems downright weird to be shut down by a liberal. A liberal! Conservatives act this way all the time...but progressives? Why on earth do they act this way? I suppose the psycho-babblers are right, that repressed guilt may play some small part, but I suspect the real culprits are the people pro-choicers think of as The Enemy, i.e., the less-than-genius minds at work among pro-lifers. It's easy to get distracted by the sheer meanness and insensitivity of those who shout the loudest on our side of the fence.As Catholics we're used to reasoned arguments, but what most pro-choice advocates identify with the pro-life cause are the epithets and pseudo-science proclaimed by spokesmen for the Christian right. Even I, a longtime pro-lifer, get angry enough to turn more than a deaf ear on men who say women who've been "legitimately" raped can't get pregnant, not to mention bishops who claim God sends those who vote for a pro-choice President to Hell and yet leaves judgments about war and torture up to individual consciences. Only oblivious but arrogant male legislators would pass laws requiring women seeking abortions to undergo ultrasounds using transvaginal probes!Should those who oppose such foolishness look beyond all that and consider rational arguments and/or the general intuition of Americans who, 40 years after Roe v. Wade, still find abortion problematic? Of course. How to get them to do so remains the question.
Congratulations, Mollie. I've taken a vow never to discuss abortion with Catholics, including my husband, for the remainder of my life. I do follow these threads sometimes and appreciate the comments as my views evolve.
I was just sent this remarkable video:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-tsiaras/pregnancy-anatomy_b_2499...
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/01/daily-chart-15Roe v Wade at 40 Jan 22nd 2013, 15:18 by Economist.comAbortion in America since 1965(Open the article URL to see the chart and map referenced in the text)IT'S an old joke, but when a man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they are going to have the last word. Thus began the argument of Jay Floyd before the Supreme Court in Roe v Wade. Mr Floyd duly lost, and 40 years ago today the Court delivered what has become one of its most famous judgments. As the chart below shows, the number of women dying from botched abortions had actually begun to decline before the Court recognised a woman's right to choose: a handful of states had already decriminalised abortion before 1973. Though a majority of Americans believe abortion should be legal, several states retain trigger laws that would come into force if Roe v Wade were ever overturned (see map). Leaving them in place is a cheap way for politicians to place themselves on one side of a culture war without having to accept the consequences of their position. Those who side with Jane Roe point out that states have been piling extra regulations on abortion clinics in the past two years, with the aim of reducing an abortion rate that was falling already. In 2012 states enacted 43 such provisions. In 2011 they passed 92, a record.
Jean, I also avoid commenting on threads about abortion.
Six and a half years ago, my daughter showed everyone video of our soon-to-be born granddaughter Sasha Grace. She moved around, sucked her thumb, and in general, charmed us all, to the point of tears. If someone had suggested that this unborn child be put to death, for any reason, we would have, all of us, been filled with horror at the suggestion of such an atrocity. There is a kind of spiritual hatred that exists in our universe, a cold and icy hatred, nay, a demonic malice so accurately demonstrated in Nazi Germany, and in Cambodia by Pol Pot. In the present circumstances it takes on the false mantle of kindness and concern about women's rights, but a huge percentage of American citizens senses that something about abortion is hideous, is satanic. In the end, abortion will end; the exact logistics of that finale are as yet unknown..., ,
Speaking of emotional reactions and of the power of images, most people have a different level of comfort thinking of abortion at very early stages, for example before the fourth week of gestation:http://php.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/images/e/ed/Stage6_bf03.jpgand of the roughly one fifth of abortions that happen beyond the transition to the fetal stage after 10-11 weeks of gestation:http://php.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/images/a/a1/Stage23_bf1c.jpgAt that point the risk of miscarriage also decreases sharply. Virtually all of the 50% of pregnancies that end in spontaneous abortion end during the embryonic stage: if one wants to take their cue from nature, nature solves embryo problems, but not fetal problems, by miscarriage. As Mollie wrote, "sixteen weeks is a long time to be pregnant". To which I would add, "and six weeks (gestation) is a short time to be pregnant" (5mm, http://php.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/images/5/59/Stage13_sem1c.jpg ). Based on nature's efforts and on the emotional power of images, it should be hard, quite exceptional, to have an abortion at sixteen weeks, and it should be easy, quite straightforward, to have an abortion at six weeks. That's the natural prolongation of Mollie's reflection.
Many of these reflections are profound and helpful to me, but the "devil in the details" of legislation that is workable and the always convoluted question of "who decides" the punishment to whom for a violation/abortion (as raised above) make me hold my tongue. In an ethics class, I once developed 15 scenarios in which abortion was a consideration and this class, in a Catholic nursing college, generally "approved" 11. Many different ethical and emotional bases were given - often with inconsistency and confusion. This was disappointing and it stirred the pot in approaching the issue and teaching, but could we come up with better legislation and review?Surely most of these growing present restrictions do not do that. Does anyone have an example of a solid legislation that might meet national and legal approval that will reduce the number?
Perhaps a starting point in the abortion issue is - for the pro-choice people to refrain from calling pro-life people, anti-woman and - for the pro-life people to refrain from calling pro-choice people, pro-abortion. It only distracts from the real differences, which are that pro-choice people affirm the right of a woman to choose and the pro-life people affirm the right to life of the unborn child.It seems to me that we are dealing with apples and oranges. How can each group ever find common ground?
Today's NYT has two letters to the editor about "Leeches, Lye and Spanish Fly," yesterday's op-ed.From one of the letters:If we are sincere about reducing abortions, we have to reduce unwanted and unplanned pregnancies. That means providing sex education, birth control, fair minimum wages, equal pay for women, child care services and familial support all policies that those working to overturn Roe v. Wade are against. Go figure.http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/opinion/abortion-and-health-care-40-ye...
Though only 0.5 inches in size, there is an incredible amount of activity in that fetus of 6 weeks gestation. The heart started beating a week or two earlier, and it's now developed a steady rhythm that is almost audible. Brain activity can be recorded as the differentiation of complex brain structures continues. In fact, the neural tissue and brain development are so active that they account for about 1/3 the size of the fetus at this stage of its development. The eyes have formed, though for the time being they remain lidless. All of this (and much more) is the result of the self-directed and unceasing biochemical unfolding of the immensely complex genetic blueprint that was present from conception. The fetus may not yet look like us outwardly (is physical appearance a sine qua non of who counts as one of us?), but there is no doubt that a singular and unique member of the human family is under construction.
my husband came along we got a sitter for our older childNot all pregnant girls/women have husbands. WIthout "wedlock," babies are "illegitimate" (unselected by their fathers). Always interesting in the abortion threads to see how everyone ignores another obvious way of reducing abortions (along with education and contraception): hold the boys/men who impregnate girls/women financially responsible for the children they beget.With the ease of DNA analysis these days, every child can know her/his father. Why do those who seek to punish girls/women give the boys/men a pass? Why no laws to ensure support of children by their fathers? Why no picketing of the homes and offices of men who refuse to pay? Why no public praying and "counseling" on their sidewalks? Why no garnishment of their wages? A father who refuses to support his child through graduation from college should be excommunicated. Do the "pro-life" bishops insist on that?
Couldn't agree with you more, Gerelyn, that child support laws need to be much more strictly enforced. Most, if not all, states have "Deadbeat Dads" laws on the books (the vast majority of those not paying child support are men). The problem is that the laws are either not strictly enforced or they have loopholes in them that allow delinquent fathers to avoid their financial responsibilities to their children. As a result, the states end up paying out taxpayer monies for the support of the children. This seems like an area where everyone should be able to agree that stricter laws and/or better enforcement are necessary. As you say, the DNA amalysis is so precise in this day and age that perhaps the only time such testing won't meet the legal standard for establishing parentage is the rare instance when a dispute exists as to which of two identical twins is the biological father of a child.
The notion that the relatively high incidence of miscarriage early in pregnancy justifies abortion is illogical. The village in Slovakia my father's family came from saw 50% or so of children die of natural causes in the nineteenth century. Similar statistics can be found in many places and many historical epochs; indeed, there are places in the world today where such statistics may be found. It does not follow from such statistics that children should be able to be killed.
"If we are sincere about reducing abortions, we have to reduce unwanted and unplanned pregnancies. That means providing sex education, birth control, fair minimum wages, equal pay for women, child care services and familial support all policies that those working to overturn Roe v. Wade are against. Go figure."Gerelyn --Introducing balanced sex education would be a beginning. When I say "balanced" I mean presenting not just biology but ethics as well. Adolescents are not impressed very much with biology, but they are generally ethical creatures, if in an impassioned way, and given a change, many are idealistic. They need to learn the biological and social consequences of their actions, and more important their responsibility for the consequences. They need to learn to be truly independent, that is to oppose the judgment of their peers when necessary. Their literature classes could help with this by giving them images of people who accept responsibility for their own acts and who act courageously in difficult circumstances. (The Scarlet Letter is perhaps too distant in culture to impress them.) This would only begin to solve the problems, but it would help many. Come to think of it, this should be a program in the churches as well.
Safe, legal, rare? Now theres a real Clinton whopper. Too bad it is not as humorous as some of his other quips.While abortion is legal in the US, it is neither safe nor rare. A million abortions a year for 40 years nice - that statistic is enough to make a nazi blush. As for being safe; an abortion is not successful unless when the abortionist is finished, a baby is dead.Nope they will have to sell the safe-legal-rare nonsense somewhere else.
(The quotation in the Ann Olivier post is from a letter to the editor of the NYT, not something I wrote.)
Ken --When you imply that all those who think abortion is OK are Nazis you do them a huge injustice. The evidence tells us that Americans do not think that the fetus is a person until well along in the pregnancy, and if there is no person, thre is no murder. These people are, therefore, not approving murder, even though they may be mistaken about the ontological status of the fetus.Calling them Nazis is grossly unfair and is itself wicked. Unless, of course, you have some magical way to get into their consciousness and have discovered that they are in fact hypocrites. If you have discovered such a technique, do let us know how you do it. Should be interesting. We could even look into YOUR consciousness to find out if you are really sincere.
There's a huge over-population problem with pets and thousands are killed because no one wants them, so animal welfare places often neuter kittens and puppies at very young ages. I suspect that in the future, there will be a way to render people reversibly infertile before puberty, and those people will only turn fertility back on when they want to get pregnant.But in the meantime, early sex education and the support for effective contraception that isn't obviated by pilot error (IUD, shots, etc) seems like the best way to avoid abortion. Tuning the US into some kind of abortion free zone, like Malta and Ireland, will just never realistically happen.
And there will always be some women who genuinely need an abortion-to protect their health or life- so of course it needs to be legal.
See also: http://www.religionnews.com/2013/01/22/40-years-after-roe-v-wade-how-do-...(RNS) In the past four decades, American attitudes have changed markedly on gay marriage, smoking, bullying and a host of other cultural issues.But on Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion, public opinion today looks much as it did back then.When it comes to American views on the legality of abortion, the trend lines look about as flat as they can be, said Daniel Cox, research director at the nonpartisan Public Religion Research Institute.
Ann - Please, I did not call anyone a nazi. I simply pointed out that even a nazi would be uncomfortable with such a high number; 40 million eliminations is quite a number after all. That hardly seems an unfair or "wicked" comment.
Mercy! Can't Catholic organizations at least get their stories straight?http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/catholic-hospital-argues-_n_253...
"The evidence tells us that Americans do not think that the fetus is a person..."Not sure what the point here could possibly be. Didn't the evidence tell us that Nazis did not think Jews were persons? At least, not worthy of life?
Crystal --Thanks for the article. I think that the first part of the article explainins some difficult Aristotle rather well in a short space. But I think it gets hung up on some language problems when it tries to apply the theory, and I didn't understand the little symbols it used. The Weinberg theory it alludes to looks like it's more amenable to end of life discussion, but the metaphysics looks rather shakey (substance as sets of properties)..
Didnt the evidence tell us that Nazis did not think Jews were persons? Mark Proska,No, I have never seen any evidence that the Nazis did not consider Jews to be persons, or that slave owners did not consider slaves to be persons, or or that the Europeans who came to the Americas did not consider the native peoples here to be persons. At least, not worthy of life?That is an utterly different matter.
Jean, thanks for the congratulations. We are excited.Perhaps I should have said this earlier, but people (as Gail Collins would say), if you cannot respond to this post without mentioning the Nazis, please refrain from responding.
First and foremost, congrats!And thanks for a thoughtful and thought-provoking reflection. It seems both sides on the abortion wars feel like they're backed up against a wall, and so they hurl slogans at each other. Choice! Life! My body! Beating heart! In fact I think most abortion decisions are far more ambivalent and conflicted, even when the woman decides, as most do, that they made the right choice (either way.) (In class I use the abortion debate as an example of a failure in deontological ethics: people endlessly flinging principles at each other, both sides claiming that the other is using a person as a means rather than an end...) What troubles me most in the public debate, I think, is when women disappear: pro-lifers show giant pictures of fetuses as though they float in the air like Macy's parade balloons. Magisterial teaching on the topic rarely mentions women except in a "tough luck" way, as when JPII said that threats to the mother's health don't matter. The Society of Jesus issued a press release on the Roe anniversary trumpeting its anti-abortion bona fides, but never saw fit to mention women, or the difficulties or dangers pregnancy can present. (Of course, the fact that there are no women in the Society might play a role in this "oversight.")Reciprocally, there is a tendency among pro-choice folks to downplay the fetus, to ignore the marvelous process of human development that goes on as pregnancy continues. In a way, there's an odd parallel between the pro-lifers wanting to absolutize the fetus from conception and the pro-choicers wanting also to see only cells, to de-absolutize the fetus from beginning to birth. Neither side wants to recognize biological development, or admit that development might have moral meaning.Otoh, public opinion shows that while most people approve of early abortion essentially on demand, people are increasingly uncomfortable with it as development proceeds. The moral "reflexes" of Americans (rightly or wrongly) see the moral significance of the fetus increasing as it develops. 16 weeks is well into the range where most Americans begin to get squeamish about termination without clear cause. It's also, to my understanding, the general pattern of current law: the state has an increasing interest in protecting the fetus as it progresses in development. But neither magisterial teaching nor the sloganeering of both sides of the debate can figure out what to make of that moral reflex and the legal stance that reflects it.So thanks for pointing us to the gray zone, the non-absolute places where the more complex truths lie.
(is physical appearance a sine qua non of who counts as one of us?)Mollie's post: At sixteen weeks, we could see our new babys face, [...]With those images in my mind, I read that paragraph from Collins and thought, It should be difficult to get an abortion after sixteen weeks. Helen 01/22/2013 - 5:45 pm:When I saw the 2 month fetus, moving around with very obvious arms and legs, I thought: I can never be cavalier about abortion.Bob Schwartz 01/22/2013 - 11:48 pm:My daughter showed everyone video of our soon-to-be born granddaughter Sasha Grace. She moved around, sucked her thumb, and in general, charmed us allPhysical appearance is a big part of what convinces people that this must be, or can't possibly be, a person. I'm not saying it's rational, but there it is.One might think that Catholics, who can look at a consecrated piece of bread and see Christ beyond the appearance of bread, may have a greater propensity to look at a just-fertilized egg or at a bizarre creature and see a person. Or not.There is no doubt that a singular and unique member of the human family is under construction.No doubt about that. I take back the word "straightforward" that I used above. Even at the earliest stage, abortion always stops the construction of a future member of the human family, so it should never be a straightforward decision. But I don't think it is, for the vast majority of women undergoing abortions; most take it seriously. I've heard some women say, effectively: "Don't worry, if I get pregnant, I'll just have an abortion", but only inexperienced teenagers are so flippant about it, I think - I hope!...
The truth about abortion does not lie in "the gray zone," in the "non-absolute places."This is the truth: "direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written Word of God, is transmitted by the Church's Tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the Law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church."Or, as Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote, "Destruction of the embryo in the mother's womb is a violation of the right to live which God has bestowed upon this nascent life. To raise the question whether we are here concerned already with a human being or not is merely to confuse the issue. The simple fact is that God certainly intended to create a human being and that this nascent human being has been deliberately deprived of his life. And that is nothing but murder."
Here is a Salon article from 1/23 entitled "So What if Abortion Ends Life." Near the end of the article, the author writes --"And I can say anecdotally that Im a mom who loved the lives she incubated from the moment she peed on those sticks, and is also now well over 40 and in an experimental drug trial. If by some random fluke I learned today I was pregnant, you bet your ass Id have an abortion. Id have the Worlds Greatest Abortion."http://www.salon.com/2013/01/23/so_what_if_abortion_ends_life/
Abe: that seems to reduce the rape victim even further. She/it is nothing more than an evidence bag.


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Approximately $1.26 billion worth of counterfeit goods originating overseas were seized by the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) in 2012. Each seizure averaged $10,450 worth of counterfeit goods. The value and the number of seizures changes dramatically each year due to the products sold and the success of CBP operations. The value of handbags and wallets seized in 2012 rose 142% compared with the previous year. Therese Randazzo, the director of the Intellectual Property Policy and Programs Division for the CBP, explained that CBP officials may seize knockoffs of more expensive brands in one year than in another. 24/7 Wall St. reviewed the 10 most counterfeit items seized in 2012, based on their retail value. Take a look:
10. Toys
Value: $13.6 million
Percent of total seizures: 1%
The federal government is holding on to a few gifts from Santa. The CBP seized $13.6 million worth of knockoff toys in 2012, down nearly 38% compared with the previous year. Approximately $10.5 million worth of toys seized in 2012 originated in China, by far more than any other country. Toys were also the most smuggled item from Taiwan in terms of value, with approximately $1.7 million worth of the items seized in 2012.
9. Labels and tags
Value: $26.3 million
Percent of total seizure value: 2%
More than $26 million worth of labels and tags were seized in 2012, down nearly 80% from the $127 million worth seized in 2011. About $7.3 million worth of seized labels and tags in 2012 originated from China, while more than $3 million worth came from Hong Kong. Randazzo said she believes that the large drop in the seizures is merely due to the lower value of the labels and tags and the amount seized in each case. However, the 796 seizures where labels and tags were confiscated was up from 706 compared with 2011.
8. Computers, accessories
Value: $34.7 million
Percent of total seizure value: 3%
The total value of counterfeit computers and accessories seized in 2012 was more than 50% higher compared with 2011. Yet these products were only seized 833 times in 2012, down from 1,069 back in 2011, meaning that the average seizure value was much higher in 2012. More than 90% of the products seized originated from mainland China or Hong Kong, with the value totaling $18.3 million and $13.4 million, respectively.
7. Optical media
Value: $38.4 million
Percent of total seizure value: 3%
Optical media was seized by CBP agents nearly 2,900 times in 2012, making the product the third-most-confiscated item. However, this was down from more than 4,200 seizures in 2011, when optical media was second only to clothing and accessories in terms of total number of seizures. Despite this, the $38.4 million value of the seized goods was higher than the approximately $35 million seized in 2011, indicating that the average value of each seizure was greater. Since optical media only includes tangible items such as movies or music on a CD and not digital transmission, the real scope of media counterfeits is likely significantly understated by these figures.
6. Pharmaceuticals, personal care
Value: $83.0 million
Percent of total seizure value: 7%
An estimated $83 million worth of pharmaceuticals and personal care products were seized in 2012, down from nearly $142 million just a year earlier. China was responsible for most of the seized counterfeit drugs and personal care items, with an estimated $46.9 million worth of products. In addition, pharmaceutical and personal care products constituted 76% of seizures of products originating in India, with an MSRP of over $5.3 million. Randazzo explained that while India has a large legitimate pharmaceutical industry, it also has a significant counterfeit industry. At left: A CBP officer displays a bag of seized counterfeit Viagra.
5. Footwear
Value: $103.4 million
Percent of total seizure value: 8%
The value of only five seized products in the country exceeded $100 million in 2012, and shoes marks the first of the five. The federal government seized more than $103 million worth of footwear in 2012 in nearly 1,900 seizures. While most of the footwear that was seized used to be athletic shoes, Randazzo said that knockoffs of higher end, dress shoes are becoming more common. The vast majority of footwear seized in 2012 originated in China. In fact, 10% of the total value of goods seized from the country was footwear, higher than all but two other products.
4. Consumer electronics, parts
Value: $104.4 million
Percent of total seizure value: 8%
Consumer electronics represented 8% of the total value of items seized in 2012 compared with 10% in the previous year. An estimated $71.5 million worth of consumer electronics originating in China were seized in 2012, comprising 8% of the total value of all items from the country. Of all counterfeit products originating from Hong Kong, consumer electronics were the most seized, comprising 1,943, or 23%, of all seized items from the country. Randazzo said that the seizure of knockoffs such as smartphones and tablets has risen exponentially in the past couple of years.
3. Apparel, accessories
Value: $133.0 million
Percent of total seizure value: 11%
Counterfeit clothing and accessories were the most seized items in 2012, comprising more than 7,800, or about 29% of all seizures. Randazzo said that knockoff jerseys of a team winning an event such as the Super Bowl frequently get seized by CBP. The number of clothing seizures in 2012 was down from the nearly 8,100 back in 2011, which then totaled $142.3 million in retail value. Of such seizures in 2012, more than $97 million originated from China.
2. Watches, jewelry
Value: $187.0 million
Percent of total seizure value: 15%
Roughly $187 million worth of watches and jewelry was seized in 2012, up from $173 million in 2011. The number of seizures of watches and jewelry by the CBP grew to 2,197 in 2012, up from 1,491 in 2011. The country most responsible for these counterfeit items was China, with $91.3 million in retail value seized by the federal government. In addition, 98% of counterfeit items smuggled from Singapore were watches and jewelry, with an estimated MSRP of $9.2 million. Randazzo noted that Singapore has a large jewelry industry, which naturally leads to many counterfeits originating from that country.
1. Handbags, wallets
Value: $511.2 million
Percent of total seizure value: 40%
Handbags and wallets were by far the most counterfeited item in terms of MSRP, with the total value of the seizures up 142.2% compared with 2011. The CBP credits a portion of the large growth in seizures to "successful interagency-coordinated enforcement operations," including Operation Market Day, which was primarily a sting operation coordinated in conjunction with U.S. Immigration and Customs. Of the approximately $511 million worth of handbags and wallets seized in 2012, more than $446 million worth originated in China. Read more at 24/7 Wall St.: The 10 most counterfeited products in America.


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MAC Femme Noir Eyeshadow
MAC Eyeshadow Swatches – Greens
Here are several swatches of MAC eyeshadows from the green family (mostly permanent shades) that are now part of The Swatch Gallery.
Femme Noir is a smoky, dark green with subtle yellow undertones. It has a veluxe finish, and it has been discontinued. It's actually rather close to MAC Diana Undercover, which was from Wonder Woman.
Flourishing is a khaki green with a matte finish. It has a Matte2 finish, and it has been discontinued.
Greensmoke is a muted, smoky green with a golden sheen. It has a lustre finish, but it's honestly one of the better lustres I've come across–it doesn't have the sheer, uneven payoff of most lustres nor the issues with fall out.
Sumptuous Olive is an olive green with brown undertones and a golden sheen. It has a veluxe pearl finish. Inglot #433 was the closest dupe I could find, but it's less green.
Humid is a medium-dark forest green with a subtle golden sheen. It has a frost finish. Inglot #418 pulls deeper and darker–less yellow-based.
Velvet Moss is a mossy green with a near matte finish. It has a veluxe finish. It has been discontinued.
Wondergrass is a bright pop of grass green with a yellow undertone. It was limited edition, and it has a frost finish. Make Up FOr Ever #91 is similar in color but lacks shimmer/sheen.
Swimming is a medium grass green with gold shimmer and subtle gold sheen. It has a lustre finish.
Lucky Green is a bright, darkened chartreuse green with a golden sheen. It has a veluxe pearl finish. It is one of my all-time favorite greens! Make Up For Ever #304 is similar, not quite as deep.
Bitter is a yellowed chartreuse with a velvet finish. This is one of those shades that has never worked well for me. It's always sheer and difficult to pack on. Inglot #343 is a better version–more pigmented.
Juxt is a spring green with a soft, golden shimmer-sheen. It has a satin finish.
Bottle Green is a dark, blue-based green with a matte finish. It is a PRO shade. It never swatches well, but it applies so smoothly and has excellent color payoff when used on the lid. Le Metier de Beaute Jade is most similar, but it has shimmer.
MAC has certainly done a slew of greens, yeah? It's been a long time since I've rearranged my eyeshadow palettes, as evidenced by how many discontinued shades I have in my so-called permanent palettes! It's a shame, too, because for shades like Flourishing and Velvet Moss, which were beautiful, there are no real comparable shades within MAC's permanent range.
MAC's matte eyeshadows have a drier texture, and they often perform better in actual application than merely swatched on the arm. For instance, Bottle Green looks patchy when swatched, but it's a shade I reach for regularly because of how smooth and buttery it looks on the lid. Lucky Green has such a smooth, buttery texture with excellent color payoff, and it is easily one of MAC's best eyeshadows in terms of quality.
The Glossover
MAC Eyeshadow Swatches - Greens
Most of these shades have good color pay off, and the textures are easy to work with on the eyes. A couple shades were harder to work with (as noted in the post), but overall, these are nice.
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Midwest Living Review
This popular state park 30 or so miles from Galena is home to some of the most breathtaking views of the Mississippi River you are likely to find.
Named a national landmark in 1973, the sprawling 2,500-acre site encompasses trails to challenge the most seasoned hiker, countless picnic grounds, enough camping space to accommodate a small town, and great access to the river for those who like to boat and fish. The state also allows limited deer and turkey hunting in season.
There are more than enough activities here to fill a weekend, but even a short drive through is worthwhile for the number of scenic lookout spots. Take a little time to admire the pavilions as well, many of which built by Civilian Conservation Corps in the 1930s.


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Locals who live here year 'round — or most of it — enjoyed getting together for a last hurrah before the official tourist invasion this weekend.
I got in some pool and beach time last weekend, and it already looked like it was filling up. I saw Peter and Stephanie Burke, Donna Macdonald, and Judi Sikora there.
Jim and June Milam hosted a small get together at their beautiful
Sunday night, Keith and RoseAnn Knight hosted a neighborhood party at their home in anticipation of their annual trek to summer in the mountains of north
Sunday night, I was watching HGTV and who should appear on the channel but local entertainer Ron Adams. The station did a feature on Ron and his lavish Destin home.
Ron Hart has had his picture taken with some celebrities recently, including Barney Frank and Karl Rove.
A Wine Women & Shoes thank you was held at the home of Tim Krueger on May 14 featuring cupcakes in the shape of high-heeled shoes.
Peggy Jones hosted her sisters at her beachfront condo in Seacrest this week for their 32nd "sisters week."
I saw Joan Vienot and Diane Grey Page at ArtsQuest on Mother's Day.
Scott and Leslie Provow are just returning from a fabulous week in
Byron Chism has been in
Gypsy Diane Grey Page is back at her beach house in Eleuthera for a week of rest following her showing at ArtQuest, then on to
Ladd Goodson proudly announces the birth of his grandson, Ladd Garfield Goodson V, the son of Bo and Rachel Goodson.
Wish a "happy birthday" today to
Tomorrow to fisherman Mark Thompson.
Monday to Karen Holland.
Tuesday to PR lady Lauren Gall.
Wednesday to Janet Stein.
Thursday to Mary Elsberry.
And Friday to artist Donna Burgess, Judy Foster, Bobby Rains, and Mindy Norris.
Wishing a happy, fun, and safe Memorial Day to all.
Deborah Wheeler is the arts and entertainment reporter for The Walton Sun. She may be reached at 654-8443 or email firstname.lastname@example.com. Her Party Line column appears weekly in The Sun. Contributions are accepted.


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A capacity crowd turned out for the opening reception of the late artist Lynn Carlisle's exhibit Sunday afternoon at the Aiken Thoroughbred Racing Hall of Fame and Museum.
The exhibit features portraits of horses and dogs and is composed of the pieces owned by Carlisle's family and friends. The exhibit will be on display through Feb. 3.
Carlisle was shot and killed by her ex-husband, Craig Jarvis, on May 17, 2012. Donations are being accepted to endow a bench for the museum courtyard in Carlisle's memory.
Carlisle's impact and influence was far reaching as she was not only an artist, but a mother, friend, equestrian and Aiken Thoroughbred Racing Hall of Fame and Museum advisory board member.
"It goes to show you how many lives she touched," said Suzy Haslup, who loaned the portrait of her horse Nipper for the exhibit. "We've never had a crowd like this before. She was a very active board member. We miss her. She spearheaded a lot of changes that we made, and a number of things we implemented. She was a very good board member and took it very seriously."
The artist, who worked in water color and oil on linen, conveyed to the audience descriptive depictions through her portraits, and the viewers found that every detail in Carlisle's paintings are observed with equal interest.
"She was a beautiful and gracious lady, and her artistic creativity will now live on because of her work," said Barry Bornstein, Aiken Thoroughbred Racing Hall of Fame and Museum advisory board member. "The advisory board felt that this would be a way to honor her memory."
Carlisle's mastery of form and skillful interpretation allowed her art to depict images of powerful quality and telling details.
"We were very good friends," said Linda Knox McLean, who had several paintings in the exhibit. "I get emotional thinking about her. I miss her a lot."
A pursuit of creative excellence and zeal for life are among the things Jill Thomas remembers about Carlisle.
"She was a good friend of mine," said Thomas. "I loved it when she came out to the barn, and we would talk about everything. Hark, her thoroughbred, was out there (Chime Bell Farm), and Tynan, her hunter. She just got great joy from the horses, the dogs and the art."
An exhibition of the artist's work will be on display at the Aiken Thoroughbred Racing Hall of Fame and Museum through Feb. 3.
Staff photo by Ben Baugh Annie Mitchell admires the work of the late artist Lynn Carlisle at the Aiken Thoroughbred Racing Hall of Fame and Museum.×
Staff photo by Ben Baugh An exhibit featuring the work of the late artist Lynn Carlisle is being held at the Aiken Thoroughbred Racing Hall of Fame and Museum located inside Hopelands Gardens.×
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This Stork Craft Beatrice organizer changer offers ample storage for your baby's items, and transitions easily from a changer into a versatile organizer for your growing child's toys and accessories.
Featuring an elegant, sturdy base and classic curved back, this piece will be a great addition to your baby's room.
- Available finishes: white, cherry, espresso, black, cognac, oak, natural
- The six open shelves allow plenty of storage space for items such as, towels, baby wipes, blankets and diapers
- Made of attractive solid wood and wood products
- Comes with a waterproof change pad and safety strap
- Meets or exceeds all U.S. and Canadian safety standards
- Coordinates with any Stork Craft Stages Crib, Beatrice 3, 4 or 5 drawer chest, combo dresser or glider and ottoman set.
- Assembled dimensions: 36.75" H x 16.75" W x 34.5" D
Shipping Note: This item ships directly from the manufacturer within contiguous United States only. Cannot be shipped to AK/HI, PO boxes, US territories, or APO/FPO addresses.


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Ksenia Krylova
PhD Student
Ksenia Krylova is a doctoral student in Management at the University of Houston, Bauer College of Business. Ksenia holds a Master of International Law degree (LL.M) from the University of Houston Law Center and a Bachelor in Jurisprudence from Mari State University (Mari El, Russia).
Prior to joining the Ph.D. program, Ksenia worked as an assistant of a judge in Arbitration court of Mari El Republic (Russia).
- CONFERENCE PRESENTATIONS: Krylova, K.O., Vera, D., & Crossan, M. (2011). Transcending the Transfer-Imitation Paradox through Improvisation. At Academy of Management Annual Conference. San Antonio, Texas.
- Krylova, K.O., Longacre, T., Phillips, J. (2012). Preemptive Apology as a Trust Preservation Mechanism: An Inoculation Theory Perspective. At Academy of Management Annual Conference. Boston, Massachusetts.
- Maldonado, T., Krylova, K., Lee, H. (2012). How Flexible Should Flexible Benefits Be? At Academy of Management Annual Conference. Boston, Massachusetts.
Contact Info
- Phone:
- 713-743-4663
- Email:
- email@example.com
- Room:
- Website:
- No Web Site Currently
LL.M., University of Houston Law Center, 2009
Bachelor in Jurisprudence, Mari State University, Law Faculty, 2007


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News & Events
March 20, 2015
Special program trains tomorrow's teachers today
March 13, 2015
Local lawmakers visit campus for 'Commonwealth Conversations'
March 11, 2015
Counseling class turns classroom into a kitchen
March 10, 2015
Event supports success of students of color
March 6, 2015
Case conference looks at the role nature plays in STEM areas
March 4, 2015
Alumna Alberta DePesa selected (twice!) as Victim Advocate of the Year
March 4, 2015
Institute for Cape Verdean Studies honors area legislators
March 2, 2015
Annual celebration brings together members of campus community
February 27, 2015
Student-researcher discusses her Posters on the Hill project
February 24, 2015
Forum looks at the teaching capabilities of newer technologies
December 1, 2014
New operation serves students in need
November 25, 2014
Cofounder of the Malala Fund, Shiza Shahid, visits campus as presidential speaker
November 25, 2014
A son of Bridgewater State University has been unanimously selected to become its 12th president.The university's Board of Trustees...
November 25, 2014
BSU joins higher education partners, governor to celebrate Brockton campus
November 18, 2014
Organization honors those who give students opportunities to present at top national conference
November 14, 2014
Music professor publishes first collection of poetry
November 14, 2014
The first two weeks of November flew by as the weather has been cooling down and classes are heating up. The days have been warm and...
November 14, 2014
Campus marks International Education Week with a series of events
November 13, 2014
Compact opens doors for cooperation, aiding students and region
November 7, 2014
Faculty members parse results of mid-term elections
May 9, 2014
More than 30 students recognized, Dr. Ellen Scheible earns teaching award
May 9, 2014
Students serenade president with a program of eclectic music
May 1, 2014
Metro South luncheon highlights recent developments
April 30, 2014
Dinaw Mengestu visits campus as part of Visiting Author Series
April 30, 2014
Anthropology symposium showcases variety of student research
April 30, 2014
Annual event held in shadow of tragedy
April 24, 2014
Awards for Excellence recognizes 'highest achievement'
April 22, 2014
Head monk, Ven Mongkol Kuapool, seated left, of the Thai Temple in Raynham, with his fellow monks
April 22, 2014
Sustainability is week-long focus across campus
April 18, 2014
Conference brings to campus educators from across the region


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Koivu brings end to inspirational 18-year run in NHLSeptember 11th, 2014, 8:37 am by ERIC STEPHENS
Beating back cancer was his biggest victory in an 18-year NHL career spent battling for the puck and now Saku Koivu decided that the fight for space on the ice was no longer in him.
Koivu announced his retirement Wednesday, ending a distinguished run as the longtime captain of the Montreal Canadiens and a successful transition to a checking role in his final five seasons with the Ducks.
The Ducks opted not to re-sign the center this summer but Koivu had been harboring thoughts of calling it a career for more than a year. Koivu, 39, now joins his friend, former linemate and Finnish countryman Teemu Selanne in retirement as his dreams of winning a Stanley Cup ultimately went unfulfilled.
Koivu, who played in 1,124 NHL games, found that the desire to put the work in to ready himself for another season was fading.Read the rest of this entry »


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American Psychiatric Association.
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
4th ed. Text Revision. Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Association; 2000.
Bulimia. EBSCO DynaMed website. Available at:
. Updated March 28, 2013. Accessed July 11, 2013.
Eating disorders. National Institute of Mental Health website. Available at:
. Updated 2011. Accessed July 11, 2013.
Hudson JI, Hiripi E, et al. The prevalence and correlates of eating disorders in the National Comorbidity Survey Replication.
Biol Psychiatry.
Johnson JG, Cohen P, et al.
Psychiatric disorders associated with risk for the development of eating disorders during adolescence and early adulthood.
J Consult Clin Psychol.
Myers D. The relationship between sexual abuse and eating disorders. Vanderbilt University, Psychology Department website. Available at:
. Accessed July 11, 2013.
The numbers count: mental disorders in America.
National Institute of Mental Health website. Available at:
Accessed July 11, 2013.
Steiner-Adair C, Sjostrom L, et al. Primary prevention of risk factors for eating disorders in adolescent girls: learning from practice.
Int J Eat Disord.
Yager J, Devlin MJ, et al.
Practice Guideline for the Treatment of Patients with Eating Disorders.
3rd ed. American Psychiatric Association; 2006. Available at:
. Accessed July 11, 2013.
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Which are in more need of saving, Gorillas or Monkeys?
Yes but do you really think we would lose Gorillas or monkeys as there are
so many different tipes of each spread all over the world and they are not really in any threat.
Conservation projects which focus on protecting habitats and educating local people about living sustainably with wildlife will support a multitude of species: gorillas and monkeys could be protected simultaneously. Suggesting an 'either/or' approach to conserving wildlife reminds me of Chris Packham's recent comment about letting giant pandas die out.
Funding and resources in conservation are insufficient and organisations do have to prioritise their efforts. With gorillas, the primary threat to their future survival is forest clearance and degradation, where human populations are competing for land resource. There are also issues around poaching, disease, illegal mining and civil war. With monkeys, habitat loss and degradation is similarly a major threat to survival, alongside problems such as the bushmeat trade. As with most wildlife conservation situations, a dual approach of protecting existing habitat/wildlife populations alongside working with local people to develop ways of living sustainably with the natural environment would seem to be the best option.
We don't have to think about giving a good planet for our children. We have to give good children to our planet.
Gorillas and Monkeys are both very important so why would we want to save one and not the other
I think Gorillas are more endangered but we neeeeeed to save all animals not just gorillas and monkeys
i think that all the animals need to be helped.
if we just let alone their habitats they would survive easier.
Oooo - a moral question!
Who are we to judge? "Survival of the fittest" says we should choose the ape over the monkey as they are more closely related to us. Therefore the ape is a better species for us to experiment on for vaccines against disease for our own survival
i think that both of them are in danger because their forests are getting chopped down.
I agree with the opinion that both of them need to be saved but I also think that it depends on what spiecies of monkey it is.
If you answered this question based alone on which species needed our help more as it is more endangered than the other, the answer would be Mountain Gorillas. However, this is an unfair answer as you are looking at one particular type of Gorilla, whereas with monkeys, you are looking at a whole range of sub-species (monkeys being a general term for many different types).
However, answering this question on a moral basis would come down to which animal you prefer. If conservationists did this,how many fewer animals would we have now? For example, in New zealand, should conservationists be focusing all their combined efforts on saving the kiwi, or should they also be spreading their sparse funds and people to save the less favoured Weta? This question shows that you need a vast range of people who are willing to save both (or however many other animals) in any scenario. It's not: which animal should we save? It's: how should we save both of these animals?
gorillas are more endangered than monkeys so i would say GORILLAS!!!!!!!!!!
I think that they both need saving. But when u say monkey, what spciese do u mean?
I thought they where the same type of animals so that group should be saved.Also I am that people can choose between them as they are both awsome animals.
This is my first post on these forums, and I just wanted to comment on the question of how we ascribe 'worth' to one species over another. Is the mountain gorilla or the hump backed whale more deserving of being protected than say an uninspiring species of little grey moth in a rain forest that almost nobody has ever seen? When the moth is gone, it is gone for ever, just like the gorilla or whale, but does anybody, except perhaps a scientist studying the moth, really care THAT much? As much as about a mammalian species that we can relate to more? Does anybody care emotionally about some minute, deep sea prawn that might exhibit some extraordinary and unique behaviour that is seen nowhere else in the animal kingdom?
All species which exist have spent the same amount of time evolving uniquely to live in their own particular environment, They have adapted and re-adapted countless times as those environments changed, until they are as we see them now, in this moment in time, a snapshot of this stage in their evolution. Complex or simple, unique or diverse, whatever its particular tactic for survival, each species is EXACTLY as it needs to be to exploit the environment it evolved for. People talk about 'successful' species, generally referring to its being widespread or having an ability to adapt to multiple habitats, but that's not the only form of success, and if a creature is living and reproducing, it is, ergo, successful. Every creature is equally fit, in the Darwinian sense, to survive in its particular habitat, otherwise it simply wouldn't exist.
That is, of course, until that habitat changes. And environments do change, (usually quite naturally, without intervention by man or other large animal population), and some species which find themselves unable to adapt quickly enough, die out, while others survive. It would be wonderful if no species ever went extinct, but if they didn't there would be no new niches available for new species to evolve to fill. There would be no evolution. There would be no 'higher' forms of life, and no humans to regret the passing of beautiful creatures, or to try to preserve the lives of the ones they like best.
My view? That despite our instinctive, (and very human), emotional reaction to warm blooded, furry animals that remind us of ourselves, all life forms are equally valid and important, (except perhaps in the sense that some species may be more vital to the life cycles of others). The scientist in me protests that it is anthropomorphic and artificial to care more about the cuddly animals from our nursery picture books, than about the less appealing, slimy ones, or those with too many legs. But, I also acknowledge that that is a very human thing to do so, and if we weren't the human beings that we are, we wouldn't care about preserving any animal life, except perhaps instinctively as a food resource. Chimpanzees, for instance, regularly hunt and kill monkeys for food, and clearly have no such qualms about eating their near(ish) relatives. African elephants uproot trees to feed on the leaves, and can cause serious damage to their environments. So, although to destroy is clearly not only a human trait, to care about that destruction does seem to be, (albeit perhaps a fairly recent one), so I shouldn't knock it.
The bottom line: Some of the beautiful life forms we care about are GOING to become extinct, despite our best efforts to preserve them, along with millions of others we don't know about, (flies, beetles, tiny fish), and may care about even less. But we have to keep doing what we do, anthropomorphic and unscientific though our reasons may sometimes be, because that's the only way any of it is going to work.
I think gorillas need saving more because when you say gorillas there are just two species, but with monkeys there are lots of species.
To be honest it depends which type of monkey of gorilla you are talking about, obviously the most endangered would definetly be at the top of the list but both are equal, instead of saving on of the two save both and make the world a better place
They both deserve to be saved equally, I agree.
I think more types of gorrillas are endangered than monkey varieties if that's what the origional question means.
Bear in mind that some types are closer to extiction than others so really that question is very vague.
Going back now, gorrilas need more saving, apparently.
Despite this, if u look at my last post on this topic I still think all creatures big, small, cute and/or strange deserve protecting.
"Marigold127" or somegumbob like that puts it better if u will just scroll up
Why not save both? They both deserve to be saved and the more animals we save the more animals for the future generation and we all know about global warming and deforestation.


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Season Eight of "Dallas" had classic Barnes and Ewing conflict, classic Ewing and Ewing conflict, and best of all, Ewing working with Ewing to take down Barnes. There was even Ewing and Barnes working together to take down Ewing. Got that? Other than that, Bobby was torn between his first true love Jenna, and Pam, who spent much of the season on a JR-orchestrated wild goose chase. Also this season, Miss Ellie was switched from role originator Barbara Bel Geddes to television star Donna Reed. Fans rebelled and Reed only lasted this season. Bel Geddes returned to the role until she retired from acting. And finally, another classic cliffhanger killed off one of the main characters - or was it all a dream?
Killer At Large.
Afton found Bobby's body in his office and called for help, and while he lived he was left blind. When Ray told JR that Randolph was back in town, he soon realized that he was the target, not baby brother Bobby. Cliff struck oil and Marilee blamed JR for talking her out of teaming up with Cliff before the big hit. Randolph shot at JR and later he and Bobby realized his assailant was still out there.
Battle Lines.
Bobby found out his office phone was bugged. He also told Jenna that the wedding was off until he could see again. Clayton promised not to tell Miss Ellie about the shooting until they returned from their honeymoon. Sly continued to spy on JR for Cliff – only to report everything right back to JR. Donna set up digs at Bobby's office while he recovered, which angered JR. And when the cops found the gun that shot Bobby at Cliff's place he was arrested for attempted murder.
If At First You Don't Succeed.
JR revealed he set Cliff up and Pam promised to take him down. Later, Cliff's alibi came through. Bobby opted for a risky procedure to save his sight. The family learned Jock's estranged brother died. Later, a crazy nurse attacked Bobby in the hospital with a syringe.
Bobby woke up in time to catch his assailant – Katherine! JR rushed to his rescue and she revealed she was the one who shot Bobby. After his procedure Bobby's sight returned and he went right back to work at Ewing Oil. There, Donna told him she invested some of her own money into a small oil company without telling Ray. Ray found Lucy waiting tables at the same place her mom had worked at and made him promise to keep quiet. Jason's daughter Jamie descended on Southfork.
Jamie revealed she had a brother and their dad died a pauper. JR demanded she prove she was a Ewing and she produced a photo of Jock and Jason together. Bobby couldn't shake thoughts of Pam. Cliff agreed to consider an offer by Wendell that involved Weststar's acquisition of Barnes-Wentworth. Jamie told Jenna that her father liked Jenna's father, which was the opposite of what she had grown to believe. Later, Pam and Jackie saw Mark's car.
Shadow Of A Doubt.
JR instructed Sly to make Cliff believe he was behind the Weststar deal so Cliff would back out. It worked and Cliff turned Wendell down. Pam learned she needed to maintain Mark's stuff until the estate was settled, but when she got flowers from him later she doubted he was even dead. Bobby moved forward on wedding plans with Jenna.
JR warned Bobby of the repercussions if Pam and Cliff aligned. Pam hired an expert to look into Mark's plane crash. She also agreed to go out with David who was more interested in work. Later, JR refused to let Bobby take down Jock's portrait before Clayton and Ellie returned. At the restaurant Eddie realized that Lucy was more than a waitress – she was a Ewing.
Oil Baron's Ball III.
Bobby couldn't convince Pam to give up on finding out what happened to Mark, and Cliff worried about her mental health. Later, she was devastated to learn Bobby and Jenna were to marry in a month. Sly took some time off from spying on JR and Ellie surprised Clayton with new bedroom furniture – bye, bye Jock! Someone caught JR's eye at the ball but he was not pleased to see Mandy with Cliff.
Bobby lambasted JR for announcing the wedding and he promised Bobby he did not intend to hurt Pam. Later, he looked into Mandy. Lucy agreed to a date with Eddie and Ellie gave Jock's portrait to Ewing Oil out of respect to Clayton.
Cliff, convinced JR and Wendell had conspired against him, insisted Mandy accept JR's offer for a date and report back to him. Bobby thought Jenna should tell Charlie that Marchetta was her father, but then Charlie disappeared. Ray found Charlie in her horse's stall and she later told Jenna and Bobby she had seen Bobby listed as her father on her birth certificate.
Barbecue Five.
Mandy had lunch with JR, a psychic told Pam that Mark lived, and Marchetta intended to remarry Jenna. Cliff confronted Wendell about his deal with JR, but Wendell assured him he was only being paranoid. JR loved that Mandy provided a new way to get at Cliff but when JR tried to throw Jamie off the ranch she provided a document that shocked everyone – Ewing Oil was jointly owned by Jock, her father Jason, and Digger Barnes!
Do You Take This Woman?
JR and Bobby decided to buy the Weststar fields. JR told Mandy he hoped Cliff got caught up in trying to prove Jamie's document true, and she passed that on to Cliff. Jenna panicked when she learned Marchetta picked up Charlie and was a no-show at her wedding to Bobby. Later, Bobby found a note from Jenna that stated she loved another.
Deja Vu.
Bobby and JR looked for Jenna and Marchetta. Pam was ecstatic to hear of the cancelled wedding and JR and Cliff each worked to keep Bobby and Pam apart. New evidence in Mark's death, instigated by JR, sent Pam to the Caribbean while Cliff sought to substantiate Jamie's claim. Jenna told Bobby that she and Marchetta were married.
Odd Man Out.
Bobby drank his sorrows over Jenna, who was actually being held against her will by Marchetta. He forced her to go to Laredo where she was eventually drugged and set up for Marchetta's murder. Meanwhile, Mandy teased to Cliff that she was falling for JR, but she may have been serious. Pam continued her wild goose chase in the Caribbean.
Lockup in Laredo.
Jenna was denied bail but when Bobby learned the truth tried to track Charlie down in Rome. Jenna told her lawyer that she may have been drugged. Jamie saw JR cuddled up with Serena and later Sue Ellen witnessed JR and Jamie fight about it - and her document.
Winds Of War.
Jamie left Southfork to team up with Cliff against JR, who got booted from the bedroom by Sue Ellen. A diary entry gave credence to Jamie's document, and Clayton predicted she would use the document to divide the company. Bobby learned Jenna's prints were all over the gun and when Marchetta's associate arranged to meet about Charlie's release, Bobby paid the $50,000 she asked for.
Jenna was reunited with Charlie after her bail was paid. She wouldn't marry Bobby like he wanted as her trial loomed but still moved into the Southfork guest house. Mandy confronted JR about him using her against Cliff. Pam learned JR paid to set up the goose chase.
Legacy Of Hate.
Pam got on board with Jamie and Cliff to destroy Ewing Oil just as Bobby felt drawn to her again. Later, Bobby, JR and Ellie were sued by Jamie and Cliff for their share of the company, backed by Pam. Mandy slept with JR and started spying for Cliff again but later decided she didn't want anything to do with either of them.
Sins Of The Fathers.
More bad news for JR as further evidence supported Cliff and Jamie's claim to Ewing – that Jock did it to protect Digger from his vindictive brother Jason. JR vowed to expose Digger as a drunk during the trial. A temporary injunction Cliff imposed on Ewing was short-lived but he later found the proof he needed to make his claim.
The Brothers Ewing.
JR turned to Sue Ellen for comfort but she was not interested in giving it. Instead, she agreed to go to Hong Kong with Pam to follow up yet another lead about Mark. JR, Bobby and Ray bonded over their impending fight for the company while Pam and Jamie fretted over how their fathers would look after all was said and done.
Shattered Dreams.
Lucy learned Eddie was two-timing her with Betty. Marchetta's accomplice agreed to testify in Jenna's trial, but it didn't matter when she was found dead before she had the chance. JR converted some assets to cash and moved them to a Swiss account. Cliff offered Jamie a job at Barnes-Wentworth while Pam admitted she still had strong feelings for Bobby.
Dead Ends.
In Hong Kong, Pam and Sue Ellen learned the patient they hoped was Mark, wasn't. Eddie apologized for hurting Lucy. Donna couldn't understand why Ray aligned himself with JR and later struck oil herself. Cliff and JR brawled over Mandy at a party. Jenna's request for a postponement of her trial was denied.
Trial And Error.
The prosecution held no punches against Jenna at the start of her trial. Bobby was called to testify. Later, they learned Veronica's sister was too scared to testify on Jenna's behalf. Donna decided to move out of Southfork. Pam and Sue Ellen returned and although JR denied sending them to Hong Kong he admitted he wanted to keep Pam and Bobby apart.
The Verdict.
Bobby went to California to convince Veronica's sister to testify, but she gave him a note to read in court instead. One of the Ewing wells was shut down for seeping into the water supply. Ray tried to convince Donna to come home. Sue Ellen came back to Southfork but made sure JR knew things were not okay between them. He let Mandy know a divorce might be in his future. Jenna was convicted of manslaughter, a lesser charge than murder.
Jenna worried about Charlie's fate as she waited on sentencing. Bobby testified that he was Charlie's father in order to keep her safe, which angered Pam who thought he had been lying to her. She reaffirmed her commitment to Cliff and Jamie to take down Ewing Oil. JR didn't hide his affair with Mandy, which angered Sue Ellen. She threatened divorce. JR told Pam that Bobby only said he was Charlie's father as a precautionary measure. JR used blackmail to get one of Cliff's offshore operations shut down.
Terms Of Estrangement.
JR did an about face and worked to reunite Pam and Bobby to pull her away from Cliff's side of the lawsuit, but she stuck her ground. Bobby and Ray watched video footage from Veronica's flight and saw a man slipped her drugs and the case was reopened. Cliff asked Jamie to marry him and her brother Jack arrived in the big D. Later, JR met up with Jack, who wanted 10 percent of Ewing Oil in exchange for help with the suit. Sue Ellen recommitted to her marriage to spite JR.
The Ewing Connection.
JR, Bobby and Ray agreed to give Jack his 10 percent. Donna considered divorcing Ray. John Ross stayed home with a slight temperature while Sue Ellen went to her therapy. When he had to be rushed to the hospital for appendicitis, JR accused her of being a bad mom and she hit the booze. Lucy met up with her ex husband Mitch and they wondered where things went wrong.
Deeds And Misdeeds.
Cliff and Jamie got married, unaware of the new evidence the Ewings had in their fight. Later, all seemed lost for the Ewings when Jack's papers were destroyed in a fire, but Jock's first wife Amanda stepped forward with duplicates. Bobby continued to struggle with his feelings for Pam and Jenna. JR secretly loved that Sue Ellen was back to drinking and assured Mandy they would be together soon. Donna found out she was pregnant.
Veronica's hit man refused to cooperate with the police so Bobby worked on a plan to make him confess. I worked, but not until after he and Pam declared their love for each other, which left him conflicted about Jenna. JR pushed Cliff to go to trial, confident their documents from Amanda would trump his and Jamie's. Mitch asked Lucy to move in with him. JR made plans to have Sue Ellen institutionalized for her drinking. Someone read an item about one of the Ewings in the paper that infuriated them. Donna kept her pregnancy a secret from Ray.
Swan Song.
Donna told Ray she was pregnant. After the trial, Sue Ellen got loaded at the Ewing victory party and Miss Ellie reluctantly backed JR's efforts to have her put in an institution. Later, Sue Ellen assured Ellie and Clayton that she quit drinking. Jenna was ecstatic she and Bobby could finally wed, which left him in a bit of a pickle. Cliff gave Jamie grounds for an annulment, but she refused, which surprised him. Pamela told Bobby to marry Jenna after a heartbreaking conversation. When he left Pam's house a car headed straight for her. Bobby pushed Pam out of the way and took the hit instead. The driver was none other than Katherine, who died on the scene. Bobby was rushed to the hospital, where he died.
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