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|73 posts found
Originally posted by MMOExposed
I actually agree with what you're saying. The problem is what you're talking about still has progression in it in some respect. You're talking about horizontal progression. Your powers never actually get more powerful; you just get more powers.
The problem here is that in MMO's they typically use a Percent Chance to Hit sort of mechanic. The numbers are being rolled in the background for everything. Horizontal progression doesn't need to do this, but it can.
I wrote about this earlier in the thread. You should give it a look-see. It might not be exactly what you had in mind, but it might help you out a little, I think.
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The whole concept of horizontal progression is an illusion that's been perpetuated so much since GW2 that I'm sick of hearing about it.
Progression, as a concept, means you get BETTER - you EVOLVE. That doesn't happen with horizontal progression.
Telling people that they're progressing when they are, in fact, stagnating - is only going to work for a limited time.
Oh, there will always be a few people who might spend years realising this simple truth - but the majority will eventually realise that horizontal progression isn't that much fun - and that they've been duped into believing that evolution without evolution can actually happen.
Advanced Member
Joined: 11/28/07
Originally posted by Damedius
It has already worked in several MMO's.
People use their brain and avoid mobs that are too tough for them. They find the areas that challenge them appropriately.
But no, we can't ask people to use their brain any more. It's too hard!
I'm fine with the levels. Not thrilled with how the world is designed though.
Spotlight Poster
Joined: 6/17/10
Originally posted by DKLond
GW2 is not a good example, because for starters, it has levels.
and for laters it was promised to have horizontal progression, like many other things promised, but it really never had that to began with.
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Sure it had horizontal "progression". You got a ton of skins and christmas gifts wrapped in bright shiny paper - that didn't actually make you more powerful in any tangible way.
People are still playing the game, so I guess more of them enjoy stagnating than I would have guessed. I just wish they'd stop calling it progression.
Originally posted by DKLond
GW2 doesn't have horizontal progression. It has vertical progression. The skills you use don't even matter. All that matters are the stats that make the skills stronger. And that's progressed through your gear. You can throw a million skills in a system and call it horizontal all you want. But if the skills only respond to the fact that you have larger stats that grow over time for one reason or another.... that's a vertical progression system.
This is D&D all over again. The only difference is that the base power is in your stats that you control, and not the gear or the spell. The spell is powerless without the stat. The attack is powerless without the stat. In MMO's, the developer controls the stats with the gear, instead of putting the option in your own hands. This is for balance purposes. It's the same thing all day long, and this is exactly what GW2 does.
Horizontal progression gives you the ability to choose between left, right, up, and down, instead of being made to go left. It gives you an even more sense of option than a predefined pattern of vertical progression - which REQUIRES an illusion to work in the first place.
Plenty of great games have been made with a horizontal progression system. The Legend of Zelda is one of them. Both are great systems to build a game with. But I think an MMO would prosper better with a horizontal progression approach. And just because ArenaNet says they have horizontal progression... doesn't mean they actually do. In fact... I don't even know how that is even a factor.
Novice Member
Joined: 1/21/14
I guess he wants to play the sims mmo :D
Novice Member
Joined: 1/18/06
I think I know what the OP tries to do here. That's only the beginning. In the next post he will declare that the game would be better with no zones and no characters.
Novice Member
Joined: 1/05/13
Sounds more like someone wants to go back to the old Ultima Online days.
I would like that somehow ^^
But really as far as i was able tp check it out i dont think that system would work that well for ESO. Justa feeling.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 3/10/08
You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__
Originally posted by Damedius
Content doesn't in itself needs to scale to make a game challenging, that's the easy/common route to design. But it's done as games usually revolve by some progression means to feel like it's progression. EvE doesn't have levels, it uses skills as a measure of progression. Just like a crafting MMO can use titles as a means to show progression (e.g., Apprentice>Journeyman>Expert>Master>Grandmaster).
Games that still use environment gating via levels are behind the times, because challenge can also be more than creature/NPC levels. It can be skill based; feat based; attunement; even a rare key find, to open an area of exploration that's walled off. I love adventuring in the very dangerous zones as a lowbie to find the highest mountains to climb (I bypassed the story lines in Skyrim, to just do that as fun), not wait for the highest level so the mobs would scale to my level. That's not fun to me, nor a challenge.
Originally posted by DKLond
Lol.. dude... I never said anything was wrong with it in the first place.
Explain to me how learning to draw, and then learning to write, and then learning to sing, and then learning to play basketball, and then learning to swim, and then learning to speak to an audience, and then learning to do back flips, and then learning to climb a mountain, and then learning to climb a mountain without ropes, and then learning to fly a plane, and then learning to play the piano, and then learning to build a computer, and then learning to program it, and then learning to ride a bike, and then learning to play chess, and then learning to sell cars, and then learning to do a million other things that are different but in some respect equally valuable in some manner or another is stagnating in life? Even if you suck at all of it... you still have that experience of doing it - and that's a great experience to have!
No one ever said vertical progression was bad and pointless. You aren't listening. But on that, I would never argue that people only want to be better at one thing all the time - constant vertical progression. People who are like that are very closed-minded people who typically have only one care in the world - themselves. Which... kind of explains why you think you're absolutely correct about this. And no... you aren't.
Variety is the spice of life. You don't get variety through vertical power. Is it awesome to achieve a master status in one thing? Absolutely. But its also awesome to experience all this other stuff in one life time? You better believe it is. If you don't agree... well, you simply haven't lived, my friend.
The problem with MMO's is the vertical progression far outweighs the horizontal progression... and people are bored with that. The playing field needs to be leveled more, and I argue that it needs more horizontal progression than vertical progression. An MMO will always have a peak level of power you can achieve. For an MMO, this is bad, because it means end-game. But, it could literally have an infinite number of things to achieve it in. THAT's what people want.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 2/02/05
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx
Actually, Daggerfall and Morrowind were static leveled games. Oblivion was completely dynamic leveled, and there were no zones (until you modded it with what were considered -essential- overhauls.) Skyrim introduced and solidified the system of Encounter Zones that were developed with Fallout 3. Most NPCs leveled with you, but Encounter Zones did have minimum levels, and occasionally maximum levels. A shitty system, if I do say so myself. It's not a coincidence most people consider Morrowind to have the best gameplay of the series.
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
You're talking about real life - where learning a skill will give you something in return that's actually useful.
In a computer game - and I hope you understand that this is about computer games - you don't get anything useful back from something that doesn't give you an advantage of some sort.
Well, it might - but that won't be progression. Then we're back to skins and christmas gifts. You can call that diversity and distraction if you want - but it's not progression. You could call it a gameplay HORIZON - but don't call it progression.
I'm not saying games shouldn't have variety - and I love stuff like housing and fishing.
But if you take progression OUT of your computer game, you're left with a terribly inferior version of real life.
People don't want that - they want a power fantasy when they're playing a game. Distraction and diversity have their place - but they can't represent progression.
I'm not saying progression is everything. I'm saying progression is vertical.
Originally posted by Spawnblade
Morrowind is considered the best gameplay, not because of level locking. Actually, I'd argue it had nothing to do with this. It was considered the best because there were a million ways to approach any problem in the game. People were able to use their imagination without feeling like they were limited to certain methods. Unlike Skyrim that while it offered a lot of options... you could simply take one look and already know that feeling of doing anything isn't an option. But for myself... it did a lot of things really well that I was okay with the compromise. Ehh... you win some, you lose some.
Anyway, they changed the way the world works in regards to your level because of Radiant AI. This means that everyone maintained a life cycle where they actually did different normal things throughout the day. They might also have a script that made them travel cross-country depending on what time of month it was. Oblivion introduced this and Fallout 3 used it as well - so did Skyrim. They made the game level up with you, because it showed that the world was constantly changing. It's debatable whether or not it was pulled off to great affect... but the idea is sound.
Skyrim introduced the idea that some of the NPC's couldn't be killed. This is because with Radiant AI... people died sometimes without you being there to help them. This was sometimes a huge problem because it could have potentially locked you out of continuing in a quest. This is a big no-no in game design. It's one thing if YOU fail it. It's another thing for the game to do it at random, and you can't continue.
Morrowind did a lot of things right... but the subsequent games did a lot of things right too. And they also made a lot of improvements. The reason Morrowind was beloved, though, was because of the unparalleled number of options at your disposal at any point in the game.
That's horizontal progression, by the way.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 2/02/05
In response to the OP: I wouldn't be against a level-less system in a game that was built from the ground up for it. ESO is not that game. It takes a total sandbox to pull that off, and preferably one with a hardcore death system or something to really flesh it out. Basically, when you cut out levels, you cut out a huge swathe of standard character development, which either needs to be replaced, or it can be left off if the intent is to allow players to bounce back into the game after serious loss of death, thereby creating meaning for that lost progression avenue. Otherwise there's really no reason to not have that progression.
Now in some games levels are a bigger bane than others. Particularly games where they have hard modifiers to stats when attacking/defending against enemies that are of different level. Like in Sw:TOR, or Borderlands, every level above a creature you get ridiculous bonuses vs it, and likewise if they're above you. This is lame. Take WoW, for instance. Even if you have 150 level 40s bashing on a max level toon, they will never kill that single player because of how broken the scale of power is (and the miss chance/glancing blow bullshit.)
I didn't see that in Elder Scrolls, however. I was running around in areas with monsters more than 50% of my level (and could even take them one at a time until I ran into a named boss mob that was 7 levels higher than me.) This is because ESO has a linear progression. I had about 250 base HP without any investment, and a max level character would have about 1000. By purely numbers, that puts a max level character at ~4x the strength of a level 12 character, in one stat. Obviously this is multiplied when you figure the rest of the stats. But once you factor in crowd control, you could actually kill a max level ESO character (assuming they're not immune to cc) with a small squad (6 or so) level 10 players getting the jump on them. Now as far as I'm concerned, that's pretty awesome. This is doable thanks to CC and moves like puncture or mark target which could reduce the targets armor to nothing. But let's say they're at a more realistic disparity in level -- 10 levels. The differences between the characters would not be so much that one 50 could smash two 40s.
For this reason, levels in ESO already are not nearly as big a deal as other MMOs (for the better, imo.) I don't see any reason to do away with them altogether, however, as there is nothing that would benefit from the removal aside from a loss of progression and customization. The game would lose far too many themepark enthusiasts simply because of how they identify with levels.
Elite Member
Joined: 6/06/12
We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.
This is going to be a first so might want to remember this time exposed. But I actually kind of agree with you. Would definitely make the game more Elder Scrolls like.
Elite Member
Joined: 6/06/12
We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.
Originally posted by Damedius
Neverwinter does this with it's PvE themed events and I think most MMO's that offer some sort of early opt in to PvP areas like GW2 do this as well. Not extremely out of the ordinary for a future company to take this one step further and scale everything to the same level and progression is based on skills and resource management.
Novice Member
Joined: 3/02/07
I think Star Citizen has the best 'leveling' concept - your abilities are determined by what your ship is and the equipment on board.
You can insure your ship, but all the equipment can be destroyed.
There is no leveling of skills. Therefore, if two players had a fight in identical ships, it would all be down to player skill.
I think this is the ideal system and a similar system should be introduced to ESO.
Originally posted by DKLond
Here, this is the literal definition of the word: progression. Yes, the definition you are applying to it is in there. So is the one I am applying it.
You're relating it to a succession in quantities.
I'm relating it to a passive of successively from one member to the next.
These definitions have the word successively. This is an adverb which describes how something is ordered. The root of the word is successive. Here is the definition for it:
This word relates to order. Let's look that word up.
Progression does not just mean more power. It does mean that - yes. But it also has other meanings. It can simply mean moving from one spot to another dependening upon how things are organized.
You can organize something based on the amount of power it generates - vertical progression.
You can organize it based on the color it has - vanity - has no function in relative terms.
You can organize it based on how it generates power - horizontal progression.
You can also organize it based on how the power generated is used - more horizontal progression
All of these are good things. They can all be great. But a game alone they do not make.
It is of my opinion that MMO's need more horizontal progression. It is progress because when you start the game, you have one manner in which you can generate power. As your progress, you gain more ways in which to generate power. This makes you more powerful in the fact that you have more options available at your disposal. This means the entire game has to be designed around this idea.
The point of leveling up in this sort of game is not to equip a more powerful rifle. The point is to be able to carry a rifle, and a pistol, and some grenades, and a bullet proof vest. This is horizontal progression. One item is just as useful as another. Metrically speaking - they generate the same amount of power. But by having more options available, you become more powerful. Not because you generate more power. But because you now have more ways in which to distribute and generate that power. Sometimes a pistol works better. Sometimes a grenade gets the job done. Sometimes you want a bullet proof vest.... though to be fair, I don't know when you would ever not want one :P
Real life military tactics revolve around the concept of horizontal progression. A soldier with more skills is a better soldier. A soldier with more tools is a better soldier. Providing a soldier with more of either one or both automatically generates more tactical options. This makes the soldier's unit more powerful. Not because they generate more power, but because they have more options in how that power is generated and how to disperse it.
No one is arguing that vertical progression is bad. I am simply saying that horizontal progression is progression if you DESIGN THE WHOLE GAME around it being progress. "Hey, awesome - I couldn't carry grenades before. Now I can. This is cool. I feel like my guy is becoming more powerful and that I am progressing in this game."
I understand completely this is about video games. Bringing real life scenarios into this is to help you understand what I am talking about, because generally speaking, people relate better to things that are real. I'm talking about a principle - not the actual thing.
Something that generates an advantage in a video game is a vague statement that could literally mean anything. Having a powerful rifle is an advantage. Having grenades is an advantage. Having both is an even bigger advantage, even if the other person has a more powerful rifle than you do. It's all in whether or not the game is designed to take advantage of a horizontal progression. The point that makes it progress is the fact that you get to use this other thing, when before, you couldn't.
Geez... you're making a very simple thing to be overly complicated.
Apprentice Member
Joined: 3/02/10
That's the main reason I'm not even considering playing it. I couldn't stomach another level-gated treadmill to the "endgame." I'm so jaded of this tired old rpg-trope I'm getting queasy just thinking about it. Isn't it nigh time someone started looking at something other than D&D as the basis for their MMORPG?
And if ESO world scales with you at lvl 50 then why the hell all those first 49 levels? Let's just start at 50 and be done with it. Elaborate arcane systems woven to cover a rotten core. If the "game begins at endgame" then why the hell doesn't it actually begin at endgame? I really can't see myself taking more than one character (if that) through 49 levels of so-called journey just so I can start playing the game proper.


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Barely two months after parting ways with May D, Square Records and Northside Entertainment is said to be closing in on a young Ghanaian Afro-Pop singer, Predy X, known in real life as Samuel Omane-Mensah.
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A Little Bit of Love
On balance, a company will keep more talent by helping its professionals grow rather than maintain the status quo.Read More
More With Less
Job growth is confirming the recovery, but the economy continues to adjust to a contraction of the workforce as industry squeezes more out of payroll dollars with fewer employees.Read More
The Russians Aren't Coming
As Putin sets his sights on Crimea and the Ukraine, a chill is beginning to be felt in the ultra-high-end luxury apartment market in certain areas.Read More
Home Sweet Home
Watch out Hilton, this is real competition, especially for the holiday traveler trade.Read More
Shelf Space for Heartburn
Oversize shelf packaging means more square footage requirements. It�s not only a sad story for net lease retail investors, its also a solid contribution to global warming.Read More
Skin In the Game
A recent study found that CEOs of family-owned companies worked 8% fewer hours than execs without �genetic� connections.Read More
Money Bags
Happy days are expected to continue on this year as the titans of PE Land continue to harvest handsome gains on more old dogs.Read More
Mergers & Acquisitions
As the stocks and earnings keep rising, we may see an active M&A market as CBRE and JLL focus on driving growthRead More
Union Town
The United Auto Workers vote had far greater implications then just for the plant. It was a sign of the further erosion of the US labor movement.Read More
I Quit!
The positive news on the �Quit Rate� front is another signal that the recovery is alive and well.Read More


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Aquaculture is an increasingly diverse industry with an ever-growing number of species cultured and production systems available to professionals. A basic understanding of production systems is vital to the successful practice of aquaculture.
Published with the World Aquaculture Society, Aquaculture Production Systems captures the huge diversity of production systems used in the production of shellfish and finfish in one concise volume that allows the reader… (more)
Publisher: Wiley-Blackwell (February 29, 2012)
Format: EPUB
Page count: 360 pages
File size: 5.3 MB
Protection: DRM
Language: English


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Originally written on Phillies Nation | Last updated 10/19/12
Big Joe was the same old (AP) Back in June, I asked if Joe Blanton was throwing too many strikes. It seemed that he was afraid to walk anyone. During his time with the Phillies this season, Blanton's K/BB ratio was 6.39, eclipsing his previous career high of 3.50 set in 2007 with Oakland. Big Joe was absolutely pounding the strike zone this season, almost to a fault. By throwing it over the plate with such regularity, he allowed 22 home runs in 133 1/3 innings with the Phillies, and 29 overall, serving up seven more following his deadline trade to the Los Angeles Dodgers. As an aside, I was standing on the field at the moment Joe Blanton had been traded. I noticed Blanton was not on the field prior to one of the games while the rest of his teammates stretched at roughly 4 pm. Minutes later, he was gone, one of the remaining pieces of the 2008 title team headed west. The Dodgers picked up Blanton on August 4, past the non-waiver deadline, because he was available on the cheap – he cost L.A. just a player-to-be-named later, which turned out to be minor league pitcher Joe O'Sullivan. The Dodgers looked to solidify their rotation and make a run at the postseason, which in the end turned out to be a fruitless endeavor following several blockbuster moves. The Phillies made Blanton expendable because they were going nowhere fast and Blanton was not doing much to push them in the right direction anyway. Sure, his walk numbers were as low as ever, but Blanton did not take any steps forward in becoming a better pitcher. He was the same old Joe Blanton, putting up a 4.59 ERA over 20 starts. Same old, same old. Basically, he was just an average pitcher, as he was for his tenure in Philadelphia. Grading his three-year, $24 million contract is easy; it was a bad move by Ruben Amaro. Sure he can eat innings, but you can find guys to do that in a mediocre fashion all over baseball and for cheaper. As for this past season, he was average. Sorry, Big Joe. Grade: C-, He didn't do anything spectacularly except not walk people. But that just meant a lot of hits and home runs.
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Chrysler Sebring Reviews
Autobytel has reviews that will walk you around a car, give you a peek under the hood and get you behind the wheel with an industry expert. Browse by category or get into a specific brand to see how well a car does when put to the test.
Showing 4 of 11 reviews for this vehicle
Kelley Blue Book ® - 2004 Chrysler Sebring OverviewVehicle Overview from Kelley Blue Book
Body America's Favorite Convertible The Sebring is probably the best known and best-loved...
Kelley Blue Book ® - 2003 Chrysler Sebring OverviewVehicle Overview from Kelley Blue Book
Body The Last Great Personal Luxury Coupe for the Masses There was once a time when big, two-door...
Kelley Blue Book ® - 2001 Chrysler Sebring OverviewVehicle Overview from Kelley Blue Book
Body Style Returns to the Sedan Market For simplicity's sake, Chrysler has dropped the name Cirrus...
Kelley Blue Book ® - 2001 Chrysler Sebring OverviewVehicle Overview from Kelley Blue Book
Body America's Best Selling Convertible Keeps Getting Better Available in three trim...
Read up on Chrysler Sebring reviews from the past few years at Autobytel.com There are 2 types of Chrysler Sebring reviews for you to study. There is a Chrysler Sebring review from industry experts. And there are multiple professional reviews from a couple of different contributors in the Autobytel database. The second kind of automobile review is the one produced by the consumer. People who have purchased the vehicle can leave their thoughts. The owner reviews are made-up of rating the automobile on a scale of 1-5; and a brief description on the vehicle. Get a good understanding of the vehicle by viewing these types of Chrysler Sebring reviews.
Being able to read a Chrysler Sebring review is very useful. But there is so much more wonderful data at the Autobytel website. But how do you access this information? Also, you could still have a couple of vehicles in mind. Well first you can get to the car reviews section of the website simply by clicking the link in the main navigation bar of the website. You can sort through the vehicles in a few different ways. One way is by vehicle model type. That is, choose an SUV or sports car for example. You can also select an automobile manufacturer. You may have a few automobiles in mind. There is plenty of information to help you narrow down the list. When you finally land on a certain model and you want to see the reviews; simply pick Reviews from the list of pages on the left.
In addition to all the wonderful Chrysler Sebring reviews there are some more great features. Be sure to recognize the value of a vehicle such as the Invoice price and MSRP. The MSRP price is what you can expect the car to be sold for at dealerships. And the Invoice price is what the dealer paid for the vehicle. This information is unique to the Autobytel website and you will not find this data in a regular Chrysler Sebring review. With the price quotes you will receive in the future, you will be able to indentify which vehicle represents the best value. Find massive amounts of knowledge on practically every vehicle on sale in the U.S. Read about: safety ratings, fuel economy figures, power numbers, and more. View the standard features and available options. Besides a Chrysler Sebring review; there is so much more at the Autobytel website.
A Chrysler Sebring review should have a handful of automobile pictures. Beyond that, there are multiple photos of the interior, exterior, engine, and more in the photo area of the Autobytel site. Fill out a price quote request form once you have completed reading Chrysler Sebring reviews. Requesting a quote is pretty straightforward and not difficult. Choose the make, model, and year automobile you are interested in. Next add some personal info so that you can be contacted. You will soon receive a handful of car quotes from dealers in your area. Feel free to come back and read Chrysler Sebring reviews anytime day or night.


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There was some dispute and even a lawsuit going on with Victoria's Secret the Nakeds Palettes when it originally launched earlier last year.
Now at the time the palette was a little too similar to Urban Decay's Naked Palette in name and design.
Victoria's Secrets again toes the line with their new Pressed Mineral Bronzing Powder.
Does the powder remind YOU of anything?


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November 3, 2011
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I train BJJ, MMA, and Muay Thai and am an avid fight-fan. I used to be a competitive swimmer but gave it up after a season of college swimming.
Hot Read: Bronze Medal
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