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Talk:Iman (model)
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Iman (concept)[edit]
List of Islamic terms in Arabic links to the Arabic word called Iman. I don't think the intention was to Bowie's wife. Disambiguation page?
- Isn't an "Iman" a priest? Or was that an "Imam"?
- Sorry, that was "Imam". I mixed them up. "Iman" seemed to mean "personal faith".
Music videos[edit]
Iman played the Queen alongside Eddie Murphy (Pharaoh) in Michael Jackson's 'Remember The Time' music video.
"Her actual measurments are 34-28-36. It is a common mistake to note that her waist is 23 inches, this is incorrect."
... but ...
"Measurements 34C-23-35"
Obviously one or the other must be wrong -- can someone who knows (or who cares enough to research this) please amend? Ozaru 07:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
-- I'm sorry, but why exactly are her measurements being given on her profile? This hardly seems to me as relevant information about her, should measurements be listed for every celebrity on wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 14:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Additionally, her hair is not and has never been naturally straight as an African...She has frequently throught her career moved from kinky hair styles to straight hair styles....Makes wonder why the texture of her hair was mentioned in the first place.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
-- What is is about her african-ess ( sorry about the fake word) that denies her straight hair? Is it not a common fact that straight and curly hair are a norm in Somalis? Maybe they were just trying to defend anyone trying to say her hair was God-forbid fake —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 17:46, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Considering where she's from and the simple sound of her name, does she have a Muslim background? 220.127.116.11 00:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
- Somalia and Islam co-exist much the way Israel and the Jewish faith are. You can't separate the two. So by default yes she probably does have one but its part of her identity as much as eating McDonalds is to peoples' childhood -- so not worth mentioning in any specific way. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 11:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The fact that she's doing modelling means that she left Islam long long time ago. Unless She's one of those people who claim to be a muslim while going against the Quran (to be a muslim you have to follow the Quran). 18.104.22.168 (talk) 17:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Iman was the first African model (Black or otherwise) to make the cover of Vogue, but Donyale Luna was the first non-African Black model to do so. However, Iman is the first Black model (African or otherwise) to sign a cosmetics contract. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 17:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
First of all, Iman is not black. She is Cushitic, and as such, possesses a completely different genetic and ancestral background from blacks. But if it means so much to you to point out that she was the first African to appear on the cover of Vogue, I guess that's okay. Somalia is, after all, geographically located on the African continent as are Egypt, Morocco and Ethiopia. I'm still going to require a citation from you though as proof that she was the first. I can't just take your word for it. Causteau (talk) 17:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm aware of that, but Iman identifies as Black. Anyway, it doesn't matter because I'm taking it out regardless; I've found various sources but none of them seem solid enough to support the claim. Sorry. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 18:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Iman only claims to identify as "black" so as not to alienate her large and lucrative customer-base in that community. The truth is, she used her first black husband to get a green card and once she got it, promptly divorced him. The half-black child she had with him also claims that she was a cold, distant and neglectful mother -- a mom from hell in her own words. Contrast that with her constant gushing in the media over her half-white child with David Bowie, and you have yourself an entirely different picture. Causteau (talk) 03:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
In response to the above comment, you really need to get a grip and stop reading all those tabloids. I think Iman would in the best position to know if she was black or not. She is of African descent, which makes her black, whether she is mixture by another race and is well able to identify herself as such. Lenny Kravitz is half-black and half-Hebrew, however no one is going to tell him that is isn't black. Get a life, if you even know what it is.
How does she know French?[edit]
Where would she learn it?
Why does she not know Swahili? Are these facts even correct? I've been to Kenya and am Somali as well. My family was raised there, and most Kenyans (Somali as well) must learn Swahili in order to interact with everyday life. Especially if she claims to have been going to University of Nairobi. I think someone needs to extensively research what languages she REALLY speaks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 09:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
- In addition to Somali and Arabic, Iman speaks French and an assortment of other European languages because of her modeling career that required her to work in many different international locations. She does not speak Swahili since, unlike what you claim, one does not need to speak that particular language to get by in Kenya. English is the de facto official language there and just about everyone speaks and understands it. This includes most Somalis who, incidentally, aren't "Kenyan" (whatever that means) but simply expatriate Somalis. Were you an actual Somali as you claim, you'd already know this. Iman also comes from a privileged background, was raised in an anglophone milieu, and attended English schools, not Swahili ones. That's why she speaks the languages she speaks, and not the ones you wish she did. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 10:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
See also[edit]
Per recent discussion, I can find no justification for the listings under the See also section. Failing substantial reasoning, I will remove them again shortly. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, per the discussion, you have been given substantial reasons (not that that was even necessary; the connection between the models is obvious to anyone). Anyone can see that they're related articles; you're the only one who can't, or rather refuses to. You also haven't provided any substantial reasons for their removal. You've only insisted that they're "not related", and alluded to some bizarre Alice Cooper connection. What on Earth does Alice Cooper have to do with any of these women let alone Iman? Is he a woman? No. Is he Somali? No. Is he a model? No. Is he in any way related to any of these women? No. Worked with them, perhaps? No. Are they inspirations/mentors for him? No. Like I said, no reasons have been provided for the removal of these See Also links (which isn't even supported by WP:SEEALSO anyway), only for their inclusion. Middayexpress (talk) 22:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- Consider this: Iman is a female model who maried a rock star. Should we add Kelly Emberg, Alana Stewart, Rachel Hunter, Penny Lancaster-Stewart, Christie Brinkley, Tawny Kitaen...?
- As I said before, listing other Female Somali models under "See also" here is as logical as listing the hundreds of English male singers on Eric Clapton.
- Next, it is redundant with the category Category:Somali female models. Should we also list everyone listed under Category:Naturalized citizens of the United States? Why not?
- Next, you've repetedly refered to various supposed connections between these women: "good friends", "mentor", "thought by may to be her cousin", etc. This is fine if you list them as such and provide reliable sources.
- Finally, when I pointed out that the guideline you cited also stated "Also provide a brief explanatory sentence when the relevance of the added links is not immediately apparent." you added that Waris Dirie is a "former model & UN Special Ambassador". Does that make the relevance to Iman apparent? Iman and Dirie are both former models. This would give us an extensive "See also" section. Iman is/was not a UN Special Ambassador, so the relevance of that portion is mysterious.
- You say I am "the only one who can't, or rather refuses to...see that they're related articles". You're the only one who has expressed that they are related articles. I'm leaving the other three alone for the moment at taking this one as the test case to WP:3O for a third opinion. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
- (from the outside) One does not list all French actresses as linked to Brigitte Bardot -- the concept of having this "see also" bit is not seemingly in line with WP practice. As a "category" already exists, use it. Collect (talk) 14:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Third Opinion I would agree that articles on other Somali models are "related" to this one. However, that does not mean that the best way to indicate this relationship is via the See Also section. According to WP:SEEALSO an entry should be included in the See Also section only if it would be included in a "hypothetical perfect article". But an article about Iman would not necessarily discuss any other Somali models, because the article is not about those other models. This would not apply if there were some specific news story that involved both her and some other model, but in that case, the story should be included in the text of the article, and the other link would obviously be there.
As I say, the issue is not whether the other articles are related to this one: I would agree that they are. But the correct way to indicate that relationship is through a Category, not through the See Also section. I note that there already is such a category, and that anyone wishing to navigate to that list from this page can therefore do so easily from the list of categories at the very bottom of the page. There is, in my opinion, no need to repeat this information elsewhere in the article - or there would be no purpose in having categories. Anaxial (talk) 18:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
My 2 cents. I was looking for an article on Aman - a Somali girl, victim of FGM, who escapes to America at 17-18. [1] Was unable to find an article on her. So went to Waris Dirie's wiki page. And saw the line: Contrary to popular belief Waris is not related to fellow Somali model Iman. Then I realised the model is Iman, and she's not the same as Aman. Maybe a line stating that could help others too. Like Iman is not related to Aman OR Waris. Believe, it or faint, vogue models are not well known all over the world! 126.96.36.199 (talk) 05:51, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
U.S. citizenship[edit]
When did she acquire it? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 10:41, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
This article was recently moved without discussion. Let's discuss before I move it back.
Generally, Wikipedia lists people by the names they are best known by. So, while here legal name might be Cherilyn LaPierre, her article is "Cher". Similarly, Gordon Matthew Thomas Sumner is at Sting (musician). As Iman Abdeulmajid is generally known as Iman, I feel we should list her accordingly. Thoughts? - SummerPhD (talk) 18:27, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Agree it should be moved back. More people will know exactly who Iman (model) is, far fewer will know for sure who Iman Abdulmajid is. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 19:04, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think it is pointless and unnecessary to rename the page, as Iman's real name indeed isn't "Iman (model)" but Iman Abdulmajid. If the fear is that people will hereafter have a hard time finding her article since most folks perhaps know her simply as "Iman" (not as "Iman (model)") rather than by her actual full name, I'd point out that the search term "Iman" didn't and doesn't lead to this article anyway. It led and leads to this disambiguation page. And the latter disambiguation page already included and includes an explanation of who Iman is to begin with, so there was never and is no possibility that people might not know who she is. A simple redirect from "Iman (model)" to this page should cover the remaining existing links that point directly to this page, and that's something which has already been seen to. Middayexpress (talk) 11:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
- What's the difference between this case and, for example, Madonna (entertainer)? Why isn't her article at Madonna Louise Ciccone or Madonna Ciccone? - 22.214.171.124 (talk) 23:30, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
- There is no difference. Wikipedia names articles about people based on "the most used name to refer to a person" (see Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)#Nicknames.2C_pen_names.2C_stage_names.2C_cognomens). So, James Earl Carter, Jr. is at Jimmy Carter. Imperator Gaius Iulius Caesar Divus is at Julius Caesar. Elizabeth Alexandra Mary is at Elizabeth II. Compare Voltaire, Colette, Stendhal, Trevanian, Michelangelo, Chryssa, Pelé, Ronaldo, Teller (magician), Cher, Sting (musician), Madonna (entertainer), Mark Twain, Marilyn Monroe, Billy the Kid, Prince (musician), ...
- The most used name to refer to Iman Abdulmajid is "Iman". It's how she's referred to in the press, film credits, etc. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:33, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- Makes sense to me. Suggest the page be moved back to Iman (model) per policy/guidelines & examples mentioned. - 184.108.40.206 (talk) 21:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- Again, while the most common name Iman is referred to is perhaps indeed "Iman" and not "Iman Abdulmajid" (her actual full name), it certainly is not "Iman (model)". The latter is neither her real name nor even her primary occupation anymore. And to the IP: anonymous votes, for obvious and very good reasons, do not count, nor is Wikipedia a democracy. Middayexpress (talk) 09:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- So you're saying the Madonna (entertainer) article is incorrectly named, yes? - 184.108.40.206 (talk) 12:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
1 Her name is Iman Abdulmajid. She is best known as Iman. Therefore, Wikipedia should name her article "Iman", per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)#Nicknames.2C_pen_names.2C_stage_names.2C_cognomens and Wikipedia:NAME#Use_common_names_of_persons_and_things. The article quite clearly should not be at "Iman Abdulmajid".
2 There are other articles that "should" be named "Iman", much like "Madonna", "Teller", "Prince" and "Sting". As a result, Wikipedia guidelines call for specification by what the subject is best known for. You argue that model is not her "primary occupation". This is moot. She is best known as a model, as the very first sentance of her article makes unambiguously clear. "...is a Somali supermodel." Thus, the article should be titled "Iman (model)".
3 Comments in this and other discussions from unregistered ("IP") users are not discounted because they came from unregistered users. As you note, this is not a vote. Rather, the content of the comment applies the same without reguard to origin. Valid arguments (i.e., those based on our principles and guidelines) from first time users easily outweigh invalid arguments from anyone.
4 You have not made any arguments on the basis of Wikipedia guidelines for keeping the article where you unilaterally moved it to. Our guidelines quite clearly indicate that the article should be at "Iman (model)". Failing substantive arguments based on our policies and/or guidelines to have the article named anything else, I will be returning the article to "Iman (model)" tomorrow. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- 1. Her name is indeed Iman Abdulmajid, and she is probably best known as Iman. However, you are not proposing that we rename her article to how she is best known (i.e. "Iman"). You are proposing to rename it to "Iman (model)", which is neither how she is best known, nor her real, full name, nor even her primary occupation.
- 2. There are indeed other articles that should be named Iman, and certainly well before the woman in question's article. Like the Islamic concept Iman, for example (which, incidentally, Iman Abdulmajid was named after). However, there's nothing "moot", I'm afraid, about Iman's primary occupation not being modeling. Actually, she herself indicates as much on her website, where she recounts her biography and what she has done and currently does in life. And what she says about her life is that she -- and I quote -- began her career as a model way back when in the seventies. In other words, modeling is not in and of itself her career and hasn't been for quite some time now; it just marked the early part of it. Iman also mentions that she was and is an author, having written several books since the early 2000's. In addition, she cites her philanthropic work as the Global Ambassador for the Keep A Child Alive Foundation. But her primary occupation is as CEO of IMAN Cosmetics, and has been for the past 15 years. In other words, she is a businesswoman. In fact, her personal website is her business website: imancosmetics.com -- she doesn't even have one for her supposedly "primary" modeling career of yore!
- 3. Anonymous IP comments most certainly are discounted when they appear to try and tip the balance in favor of one viewpoint. The reason for this is obvious: You yourself could be the IP anonymously "supporting" your own arguments.
- 4. Actually, what I have not based my arguments on is twisting Wikipedia's policies for my own ends i.e. Wikilawyering. I have based them on commonsense and Iman's own words. Furthermore, you cannot force or otherwise attempt to bypass consensus by insisting that you "will be returning the article to "Iman (model)" tomorrow". I'm afraid "our" Wikipedia just does not work that way. Middayexpress (talk) 19:55, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
- There were many discussions that we had in en.wikipedia over articles related to famous people. For example,Beyoncé is a famous R&B singer/songwriter, but also she is a dancer, model and actress. Her article is Beyoncé Knowles, not Beyoncé (singer), Beyoncé (dancer), Beyoncé (model) etc.
- Iman is an Arabic word, and an Islamic term for religious belief. There are many people with that first name, as famous as her (eg. Princess Iman), therefore I would suggest to keep the full name, as it is now. --Kaaveh (talk) 04:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- Beyoncé Knowles is very well known as Beyoncé Knowles, and her article refers to her as Knowles, not as Beyoncé. How about the Madonna (entertainer) example?
- For the full name to be kept as the article name, you need to explain why the policies/guidelines already cited don't apply. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 07:18, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- No we do not because the policies don't cover "Iman (model)"; they only cover "Iman" since the latter is how she is most commonly known and not the former. Also IP, I don't mean to sound rude, but your opinions don't count in this discussion. See this link as to why that is. Middayexpress (talk) 23:16, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the Wikipedia:Sockpuppets link. Please, ask for this to be investigated, to put your mind at rest - nothing to hide here. - 18.104.22.168 (talk) 00:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
As repetedly explained, the guidelines that apply here are Wikipedia:Name#General_conventions ("...title an article using the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article. Make the title unique as described in the disambiguation guideline.") and Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)#Qualifier_between_bracketing_parentheses (with [[Prince (musician) cited there as the example). Given Madonna, Prince and others, I feel the guidelines are quite clear on this. Failing explanations based on policy and/or guidelines to the contrary within the day, I will be taking this to an univolved admin for closure. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
- Again, your arguments are not based on policy, but on distortions of policy. The link you cited, for example, specifically concerns disambiguating between two persons with the exact same name. It doesn't address disambiguating between Islamic concepts (i.e. Iman (concept)) and persons, as is the case in our present situation. This is why all of the cited examples exclusively address like-named people:
- William Henry (delegate), William Henry (chemist), William Henry (congressman), William Henry (actor),...
- Frank Vandenbroucke (cyclist) - in order to disambiguate from the politician with the same name.
- Prince (musician) - disambiguating from other "Princes" mentioned at Prince (disambiguation)
- Lucius Cornelius Balbus (major) and Lucius Cornelius Balbus (minor) - see above: for these two Romans the "the Elder"/"the Younger" epithets are not commonly used.
- Note that the qualifier in parentheses specifically refers to the person's profession. And as I've already demonstrated above using Iman's own words from her personal/business website, modeling is not her primary occupation and hasn't been for almost twenty years now. Furthermore, the Qualifier between bracketing parentheses and Nicknames, pen names, stage names, cognomens sections of policy that you have been linking to are categorized in a sub-section of the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) guideline titled When it seems difficult to follow the "<First Name> <Last Name>" format. The thing is, it is not "difficult" to follow the default "<First Name> <Last Name>" format, as the present article is already titled Iman Abdulmajid. What you are then proposing is to rename the article to something (i.e. "Iman (model") that is neither her real name, nor her profession, nor even Wikipedia's preferred naming system, when the disambiguation page that the term Iman leads to anyway already explains (and explained) who the woman is to begin with. Wikipedia, moreover, discourages the type of disambiguating you are attempting to add:
*Do not have additional qualifiers (such as "King", "Saint", "Dr.", "(person)", "(ship)"), except when this is the simplest and most NPOV way to deal with disambiguation
- As we've seen, this as well is neither the simplest nor the most NPOV way of dealing with this issue since, among other things, it requires pigeon-holing Iman into a profession that does not and has not characterized her life for two decades now. It also requires renaming the page away from Iman Abdulmajid, which is the woman's real first and last name, perfectly in sync with the recommended "<First Name> <Last Name>" convention. Middayexpress (talk) 00:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I have requested closure by an uninvolved admin at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Iman_.28model.29_vs._Iman_Abdulmajid - SummerPhD (talk) 13:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, you have. Only you neglected to link them to this talk page discussion. Middayexpress (talk) 21:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Moving back[edit]
I've reviewed the discussion, and with the consensus (not unanimous, but majority here) and our relevant policy (article name == most commonly known name of the person or thing in english), I believe that we should move back to Iman (model). I have just done so.
This is not a final judgement - a more detailed discussion here, request for comment or poll here can establish that there's more consensus for the other way. However, our general policy and the rough consensus here now both are for the Iman (model). A case can potentially be made to make an exception to the general policy. However, I think it's reasonable to state that the burden of proof both on correctness/reasonableness of the rename per policy, and burden of proof on consensus of editors, lie in the hands of those who want the article name Iman Abdulmajid. Those of you who feel strongly on that point are welcome to develop a more detailed proposal and hold a poll to try and change consensus, but should leave the article name as-is unless and until then. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- No consensus has been reached, George. I'm sure you mean well, but you are more than incorrect in suggesting that it has. And Wikipedia's policies are not in favor of renaming the page to "Iman (model)". They are in favor of a "<First Name> <Last Name>" format, as I've demonstrated above with my post dated 00:28, 10 April 2009. Failing that, they are in favor of a most common name strategy, which in this case would be "Iman", not "Iman (model)". In fact, policies expressly discourage that sort of parenthetical disambiguation, as I've also demonstrated above. Middayexpress (talk) 22:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm an uninvolved administrator - we were asked on ANI to come take a look, and I did.
- The discussion has gone on for over 2 weeks, since March 25th.
- There have been four people who already were involved with the article who supported Iman (model) and two that supported Iman Abdulmajid. One ANI contributor agreed with the Iman (model), and one inquired as to whether she used her maiden name Abdulmajid or Bowie as her last name now (apparently the former, but not directly relevant to the article name, and evidence supports her still going by her first name alone as stage name)
- Those reading policy as prefering "most common name" "optional disambiguator" (i.e., Madonna (entertainer)) are correctly reading the cited policies and other existing usage.
- I reviewed the discussion here and policy and precedents prior to taking any action. Please assume good faith about administrators that we do homework and don't just leap into problems without checking.
- I repeat my earlier conclusion - as an uninvolved administrator, in my judgement, there's a consensus here and the consensus is in line with wider Wikipedia policy and precedent. For the time being the name should remain Iman (model).
- Middayexpress - you are welcome to continue discussions and attempt to change the consensus. The policy isn't in this case so unambiguous that a local consensus could not justify using another name, such as Iman Abdulmajid. However, you are currently outvoted 5:2. Discussion has been ongoing for 2 weeks and has developed a stable set of arguments on each side. That's a consensus.
- I would like to request that you not disruptively rename again. In my judgement, as an uninvolved administrator, there clearly is consensus at this time.
- As I stated earlier, there's no reason to stifle further discussion. If you can change people's minds and hold a poll which shows that consensus has changed, then that's a different story. But right now - consensus exists. You can disagree with what that consensus believes - but please don't insist that there's no consensus. You disagreeing with the consensus opinion is your right. You asserting there is no consensus is not right - uninvolved administrators are allowed to review and determine consensus on WP discussions.
- Please accept that consensus exists now, and that further change should be based on changing people's minds first.
- Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm an uninvolved administrator - we were asked on ANI to come take a look, and I did.
- I see you've moved the page back. Only this time you've indicated that consensus has been reached because the "vote" apparently was 5 to 2. However, last I checked, Wikipedia was not a democracy:
"Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary but not exclusive method of determining consensus is through editing and discussion, not voting. Although editors occasionally use straw polls in an attempt to test for consensus, polls or surveys sometimes impede rather than assist discussion."
- But just who exactly are these 5 other editors anyway? I'm looking at the Administrator's Noticeboard, and I only see one editor -- hmwithτ -- voting in favor of SummerPhD. One other editor simply asked a question that the other answered. And all of this discussion took place without SummerPhD even having the courtesy to link to this talk page discussion (I don't blame him, though). That would therefore make it only two editors plus yourself versus myself and the person who originally renamed the page. Last I checked, that was not nearly enough to constitute WP:CONSENSUS. By the way, if you count your vote, then you're essentially an involved administrator and therefore cannot avail yourself of your administrator privileges for this dispute. Middayexpress (talk) 22:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- I was referring to editors here, but I miscounted something. I'm reviewing the discussion above again. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Just read this whole discussion and support the move back to Iman (model) for all the reasons listed. Also, Middayexpress, please don't bite anonymous editors. Opinions of editors without a username definitely do count. If there is a case of case sock puppetry, please go to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations. Garion96 (talk)
- Okay guys. But I'll have you know that attempting to force consensus by vote is an exercise in futility. Changes that last can only be brought about organically. Anything other than that is bound to be overturned sooner or later. Middayexpress (talk) 23:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Miscount review[edit]
As I stated above, I had read the discussion top to bottom a couple of times prior to deciding whether consensus existed, etc. However, when I went back to total up the opinions on each side, I miscounted. I misread some comments as being by other editors, based on misreading formatting.
Actual count of talk page participants is a 2:2 tie -
- SummerPHD and IP editor at 58.8.* for Iman (model)
- Middayexpress and Kaaveh Ahangar for Iman Abdulmajid
Additional opinions expressed as a result of the ANI posting:
- Garion96 and Hmwith for Iman (model)
- LessHeard vanU asking about Abdulmajid vs Bowie for last name, but not clearly expressing a final preference
My opinion on the policy stands as stated earlier. However, I'm going to ask another uninvolved admin to review and redetermine consensus. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll recount:
- For Iman Abdulmajid:
- Kaaveh Ahangar (talk page)
- Middayexpress (talk page)
- For Iman (model):
- That's 3-2, hardly consensus. And in case I misquoted it before, Wikipedia is not a democracy and "voting" is no way of determining consensus:
"Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary but not exclusive method of determining consensus is through editing and discussion, not voting. Although editors occasionally use straw polls in an attempt to test for consensus, polls or surveys sometimes impede rather than assist discussion."
- IP editors are as welcome to participate in polling on Wikipedia as anyone. If you believe that SummerPHD is sockpuppeting as the 58.8.* IP then please provide some evidence. Unless there's evidence presented, the IP's contributions are as valid as anyone else's.
- There are two more contributors on AN who agreed with Hmwith and Garion as well, making it 6:2 if you count them.
- Consensus is never merely a simple vote. However, how many people support different opinions and approaches does matter. There's virtual unanimity among the administrators who have commented so far that the policy generally supports Iman (model).
- As I have said all along, even if we decide one way now, I think that you could potentially change people's minds, and a friendly ongoing discussion on the point is fine. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- I support Iman (model) as the classic disambiguated form of the commonly used name. (I imagine very few readers will even know her surname. When I visited the dismabiguation page, I at first thought she wasn't even mentioned there, because she's listed under her full name, which looks very unfamiliar to me.) SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 17:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Jermaine Jackson's video[edit]
Isn't the girl in this Jermaine Jackson's video Iman?--184.108.40.206 (talk) 16:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
She clearly shows in this video and there's no need for further sources to this.--220.127.116.11 (talk) 18:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I have restored the page back to its original state. Much of it was restructured in a highly condensed and uninformative way without prior discussion per WP:BRD; the quotebox citing the famous phrase by Yves Saint Laurent ("Iman is my dream woman") was also removed. Iman's entrance into modeling was likewise reduced to "a tribeswoman who'd been discovered while tending cattle and sheep in a Kenyan game preserve". In reality, the photographer Peter Beard suggested that she pose as a sort of stereotypical African "jungle woman", and she played along with the plan for a few months (although there aren't any jungles in Somalia & her dad was a diplomat). The edit also played down her Islamic faith by highlighting that "she does not practice the religion", when, in fact, she is a believing Muslim who has struggled throughout her modeling career to balance her Islamic values with her modeling obligations [1]. Moreover, the edit attempted to pigeon-hole Iman as a "black African" model ("she quickly became the first black African to be widely embraced by American fashion"). This is a highly subjective & dubious assertion given the fact that she is Somali, a unique people who don't share any particularly great biological affinity with so-called "black Africans" and who have very different traditions of descent and self-perceptions ([2], [3], [4]). In fact, the article that phrase was supposedly sourced to indicates that Iman was "the first African to be widely embraced by American fashion" [5]. The edit also indicated that "Iman's early success sparked criticism among African Americans, who argued that black American models were being overlooked in favor of an "exotic" African"; however, this ignores the overall point of the ref that Iman was so quickly embraced by the fashion world in the first place because, due to her unique physical characteristics, she more readily met the prevailing white beauty standards than the African American models did. For this, she was actually likened by those same African American critics to a dark-skinned white woman: "Still, her looks sparked criticism among some African Americans, who were critical that home-grown beauties had been overlooked in favor of an "exotic" African. In 1976, Marcia Ann Gillespie, then the editor in chief of Essence, stingingly wrote in her column that Iman " ... looks like a white woman dipped in chocolate."" The edit also reduced Iman's many charitable endeavors from an entire section to one line, and claimed that she married her first Somali husband (described as a "boyfriend") solely "in a fit of rebellion", when she actually states quite plainly in her autobiography that she loved him deeply but felt that she would be unable to pursue her modeling passion while being a housewife. In short, the edits were highly POV, selectively quoted and unnecessary; the article was (and is) already well-written & formatted. Middayexpress (talk) 17:00, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Editor's response[edit]
- "Much of it was restructured […] without prior discussion per WP:BRD;"
I apologize for not reaching consensus first. I wasn't aware that was a necessity.
- "the quotebox citing the famous phrase by Yves Saint Laurent ("Iman is my dream woman") was also removed."
A five-word sentence does not need a quotebox, it was integrated in the appropriate sentence.
- "Iman's entrance into modeling was likewise reduced to "a tribeswoman who'd been discovered while tending cattle and sheep in a Kenyan game preserve"."
That is quoted almost literally from the Los Angeles Times, a more than reputable source. Btw, it reduced nothing, as there previously was no mention of her entrance.
- "The edit also played down her Islamic faith by highlighting that "she does not practice the religion""
That was quoted, again almost literally, from an interview with Iman herself ("Does Iman still identify as a Muslim, the faith in which she was raised? 'I was never a practicing Muslim,' she tells me. 'But I do consider myself a Muslim.'"). For the record, I added that because she herself stated it, it wasn't a moral judgement or anything, I'm not religious myself.
- "Moreover, the edit attempted to pigeon-hole Iman as a "black African" model [...] This is a highly subjective & dubious assertion given the fact that she is Somali, a unique people who don't share any particularly great biological affinity with so-called "black Africans""
Iman IDENTIFIES as black, therefore she IS black in the eyes of Wikipedia. Her great success in the industry was remarkable precisely BECAUSE she's black (and African).
- "The edit also indicated that "Iman's early success sparked criticism among African Americans, who argued that black American models were being overlooked in favor of an "exotic" African"; however, this ignores the overall point of the ref that Iman was so quickly embraced by the fashion world in the first place because, due to her unique physical characteristics, she more readily met the prevailing white beauty standards than the African American models did."
…that is exactly the point I made in the article. She was the first African to be embraced by the industry BECAUSE of her "white girl dipped in chocolate" appearance: "With her tall, thin frame, long neck, fine features and naturally straight hair,[2][5] Iman possessed the characteristics of beauty that were valued by the predominantly white fashion industry,[2] and she quickly became the first black African to be widely embraced by American fashion.[2]"
- "The edit also reduced Iman's many charitable endeavors from an entire section to one line,"
That's because the "entire section" is in reality just one line ("[…] Iman is also actively involved in a number of charitable endeavors. She is currently a spokesperson for the Keep a Child Alive program, and works closely with, among others, the Children's Defense Fund.[9]"). Iman quitting her De Beers contract because they're assholes is not a humanitarian act (just like Beyonce donating her Kaddafi money isn't).
- "and claimed that she married her first Somali husband (described as a "boyfriend") solely "in a fit of rebellion"
I took that from the Gale Contemporary Black Biography[6], which I apparently forgot to add as a citation: "Iman had married, in rebellion, her teenage sweetheart. Iman knew the marriage was a mistake, so that when Peter called with the offer to go to America to become a model, she leapt at the chance--more to escape the marriage than to become a model."
- "the article was (and is) already well-written & formatted."
It really isn't---it's a MESS, and for the following reasons:
- The citations follow NO guidelines (usually it's just </ref/>[link]</ref/>)
- Excessive use of headers (e.g. a "Video games" section for a minor voice role in ONE game
- Sycophantic language that does not belong on Wikipedia ("a pioneer", "instant success")
- An incomplete filmography
- Categories that do not apply to the subject ("David Bowie", "Contestant in a reality TV show")
- Irrelevant details ("handbags with turquoise embroidery and sequins" or whatever)
My edits fixed all of these problems. I really feel like we need to reach a consensus here, because I didn't waste an hour of my life on this article to have it reverted to a crap version. I propose that we revert back to my version, but:
- The YSL quotebox will be reinstated.
- All mention of Iman's blackness will be removed.
- Mention of her first marriage being out of rebellion will be removed.
- Mention of whether or not she practices her religion will be removed.
What say you?
Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 18:24, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response. However, you still don't seem to understand what is wrong with your edits. For starters, the Yves Saint Laurent quote is famous and so is he i.e. it's a famous quote from one of the most celebrated designers (""My dream woman is Iman." So said no less an arbiter than Yves Saint Laurent." [7]; "Iman was not only a supermodel... she was a muse for many prominent designers including Yves Saint-Laurent (1936 – 2008) who famously claimed: "My dream woman is Iman"." [8]). So yes, it deserves its own quotebox, and you have not provided a satisfactory reason much less a policy indicating why it doesn't. Second, Iman's entrance into modeling was indeed already discussed ("While still at university, Iman was discovered by American photographer Peter Beard, and subsequently moved to the United States to begin a modeling career. Her first modeling assignment was for Vogue a year later in 1976."); it just didn't mention the "jungle woman" charade because it was sparked by one tabloid article: "Her arrival was a media event thanks to an article in a New York tabloid that portrayed her as a tribal woman from the African jungle that Beard had stumbled upon. That wasn't even close to the truth considering Iman, the daughter of a diplomat, attended boarding schools and spoke five languages" [9]. It was also a trivial footnote in her career and was so patently ridiculous, particularly given her actual background (there is no sheep herding in the jungle and there are no jungles in Somalia). Third, Iman abandoning her contract with the De Beers diamond company because of its alleged mistreatment of the Bushmen is indeed not humanitarian work (nor did I add that material), but that does not make the section any less relevant, especially given all of the other charitable work she has done. Fourth, Iman does not identify as "black" in the way that you are presumably referring to (i.e. as a racial category). When she uses the term, she is referring to having dark skin only, just as many dark-skinned Dravidians use the term. Somalis indeed do not share much biological affinity with so-called "Black Africans", and their dark skin is due to localized adaptation to a tropical environment, not to shared descent with Black Africans: "The dark skin of Somalis and Ghanaians, for instance, indicates that they evolved under the same selective force (a sunny climate). But that's all it shows. It does not show that they are any more closely related in the sense of sharing more genes than either is to Greeks. Calling Somalis and Ghanaians "black" therefore sheds no further light on their evolutionary history and implies -- wrongly -- that they are more closely related to each other than either is to someone of a different "race"" [10]. Contrary to what you have indicated, Wikipedia also does not have a policy on "blackness". In fact, the ethnicity ascriptions on the Wiki bios are an extreme source of contention, and specifically because they are so subjective (c.f. [11]). Fifth, answers.com (including its "Gale Contemporary Black Biography"), is unfortunately not a reliable source. The website uses a lot of open access references for its material (such as blogs and wikis, including Wikipedia), often reproducing the text verbatim, and it shows. Sixth, the article is actually quite well-written and formatted. Your edit erroneously placed Iman's appearance in the Omikron video game under the Filmography table, when of course it isn't a film or video. It deserves its own section. The term "pioneer" is also unfortunately not a "sycophantic" descriptor given the fact that a) that is how Iman's role in modeling is consistently described [12], and b) she is indeed a pioneering figure in that particular field. The handbag details can be removed as they are admittedly minutae. The David Bowie category can too (although, as his wife of about 20 years now and mother of his latest born, that indeed makes Iman immediately relevant to him). The filmography table is also not meant for an exhaustive listing of everything that Iman has appeared in (which would be an article unto itself); that is what the Internet Movie Database is for. Refer to WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Middayexpress (talk) 19:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
"3.2 Global Chic" = GENDERED[edit]
"After some cajoling" has no place in an article about a business woman and entrepreneur. Edit-editor-editing (talk) 13:37, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
- Biography articles of living people
- C-Class biography articles
- C-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
- Unknown-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles
- Arts and entertainment work group articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- Unassessed WikiProject Somalia articles
- Unknown-importance WikiProject Somalia articles
- WikiProject Somalia articles


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You won't be able to dismiss this by usual means (escape or click button), but you can close it programatically based on user choices or actions.
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gengiscant 27 Jan 11
First of all you will need to stop automatic restarts after a blue screen so you can note down the error message and code.
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Windows 10 Home vs Windows 10 Pro comparison: Here are the extra features you get in the Pro version
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I have a JPanel with GridLayout of JButtons. There is a number of operations happening inside this panel, where buttons get enabled and disabled a few times. Now I am creating some JUnit tests and in the end need to check that all JButtons are disabled.
Is there a method, which would allow me to return a collection of JButtons from the GridLayout or at least a JButton from certain position so that I can loop through it?


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Originally published 01/17/2013
David Barton: History proves armed elementary kids prevent school shootings
Conservative host Glenn Beck and "historian" David Barton on Tuesday debuted a new show called "Foundations of Freedom" and suggested that history proved that school shootings could be prevented if all elementary school children were armed.After pointing out that some areas of the United States required every household to own a gun in the late 1800s, Beck told Barton that "everybody grew up with a gun" and it was "part of school."Barton noted that guns were only fired in schools at the time to stop criminal activity."The great example, in the 1850s you have a school teacher who's teaching," the historian explained. "A guy, he's out in the West, this guy from New England wants to kill him and find him. So, he comes into the school with his gun to shoot the teacher, he decides not to shoot the teacher because all the kids pull their guns out and point it at him and say, 'You kill the teacher, you die.' He says, 'Okay.' The teacher lives. Real simple stuff."...
- David Hackett Fischer wins $100,000 prize for lifetime achievement in military writing
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you are improving so much
Nice picture! I see you're started to create painted pictures without using 3D. You are skilful painter and you can try different methods of painting. Then you'll see which method is the best for you.
I don't know who from both has a harder look JJ or Kragnon.


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Jewish Thought/Hashkafa
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a history lesson
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Day Passes
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Healing conference
On Monday 25th May we're having an afternoon & evening of worship, teaching & ministry with Randy Clarke to learn more about healing. Come along & join us for one session or both!
Fancy Dress Theme
The fancy dress theme for this summer is the Nativity! We'll have some surprises in store as Christmas meets summer, here's baby Crofty making his video debut to share the news.
Fun-size mission academy
Our friends at HOPE Revolution are encouraging young people to live a lifestyle of mission through Fun-size Mission Academies.
New Promo!
Get ready for Soul Survivor 2015!
We do have quite a big web site full of lots of fun info, resources and words. We have fun making it, but we also want you to find what you're looking for. If you've got lost or find yourself going round in circles, why not try one of these links:
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#3 hit single by LFO in 1999.
"Real Real Real" is the second single taken from UK band Jesus Jones' 1991 album Doubt. It followed the Billboard Top 10 hit "Right Here, Right Now" (which, in the UK peaked at #31). "Real Real Real" did better, reaching … see full wiki
#3 hit single by LFO in 1999.
Adult alternative pop-rock singer/songwriter/guitarist
#1 (7 weeks) hit single by Bryan Adams in 1991
#1 hit single by Extreme in 1991


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Perseus Books
Nested at the base of the San Juan Mountains in Colorado is the Double RL Ranch, owned by Ralph Lauren and his family. In this book, Ricky Lauren illuminates the history of the region and opens the doors to her family kitchen, sharing her culinary secrets, cherished heirloom recipes, favorite Western-style dishes, and innovative decorating techniques for creating the perfect table setting and dining atmosphere.


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Spring Vegetable Dip
30 Dec 2008
Anyone would love this Spring Vegetable Dip male of spring vegetable soup and sour cream. This recipe is really simple for you to give it a try!
|Swiss recipe spring vegetable soup mix
|9⁄10 Ounce
|Dairy sour cream
|1 Pint
Combine soup mix and sour cream.
Let stand in refrigerator at least 2 hours before serving.
Makes 2 cups.
Serve with corn doodles.
Recipe Summary
Difficulty Level:Easy
Course:Side Dish
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Spring Vegetable Dip Recipe


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25 Jul 2014
Read the July edition of the VCA & MCM e-newsletter
25 Jul 2014
Read the July edition of the VCA & MCM e-newsletter
27 Jun 2014
Read the June edition of the VCA & MCM e-newsletter.Read More
26 May 2014
The VCA and MCM are proud to announce the Graduate Mentorship recipients for 2014.Read More
24 Apr 2014
The Victorian College of the Arts and the Margaret Lawrence Bequest will celebrate the centenary of philanthropist Margaret Lawrence (1914 – 2004) at the arts festival Give it up for Margaret: A month of Philanthropic Inspiration, May 1-31, 2014.Read More
20 Mar 2014
The VCA and MCM's Grant St Theatre has been refurbished and the new Lionel Gell Lounge launched, creating one of Melbourne's premier music theatre performance venues.Read More
19 Mar 2014
Refugee students have collaborated with the Faculty of the VCA and MCM to produce three films to be shown on the Federation Square Big Screen on 19 March, as part of Harmony Day celebrations.Read More
12 Mar 2014
Alumnus Jakeb Anhvu wins F4 Award for Outstanding New Australian Documentary Talent at DocWeek in AdelaideRead More
06 Mar 2014
Director of the VCA, Professor Su Baker writes on the new Melbourne Arts Precinct Blueprint and it's impact on the Southbank campus.Read More
24 Feb 2014
A project worth more than $40 million will redevelop the Dodds Street stables into a visual arts wing at the VCA, creating a new entry point to the University and opening the campus to students, local business and residents.Read More
12 Feb 2014
An exciting new plan for Melbourne's Southbank Arts Precinct has been released by the Victorian Government.Read More
04 Feb 2014
Congratulations to actress Elizabeth Debicki (Bachelor of Dramatic Art 2010) for her Best Supporting Actress award at the annual AACTA Awards in Sydney. Elizabeth won the award for her performance as Jordan Baker in Baz Luhrmann's film The Great Gatsby.
More information about this year's AACTA Awards' nominees and winners here
28 Jan 2014
Internationally recognised performing arts scholar Mary Luckhurst will take up a position as Professor of Creative Practice and Artistic Research at the VCA & MCM, in a major research appointment at The University of Melbourne.Read More


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global development
COP16: Traffic Jams, Mired Talks, and Glimmers of Hope
The first week of talks is over at COP16 in Cancun, Mexico, and my brain is mushy. It's not from margaritas -- what's spinning me around is the political web of the talks, the freakishly high stakes, and
Support Your Local Economy With Small Business Saturday!
Tired of hearing horror stories about lead in toys, mercury in electronics, and melamine in baby formula? Remember that you can make your voice heard with your purchasing decisions. When you go shopping
COP16 UN Conference for Climate Change Starts Monday!
This Monday the 29th will mark the 16th edition of the Conference of the Parties of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (COP) and the 6th Conference of the Parties to the Kyoto
Jointhepipe: Brilliant Water Bottle Wins 2010 Dutch Design Award
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15,000km Long Eco City Revitalizes the Silk Road
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New Nanotech Purifier Filters Water 80,000 Times Faster
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Nanotech Tea Bag Purifies Drinking Water for Less Than a Penny
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Rwanda Taps Volcanic "Exploding Lake" for Power
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Samsung India Announces First Solar-Powered Mobile Phone
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By Brendan Sasso - 09/27/11 10:28 PM EDT
President honors top scientists and inventors: President Obama on Tuesday named seven recipients of the National Medal of Science and five recipients of the National Medal of Technology and Innovation.
Winners of the technology award include inventors of energy efficiency techniques, flight-safety sensors and rocket propulsion systems. The winning scientists performed research on DNA, cardiovascular physiology, probability theory and other areas.
Despite the prolonged economic downturn, the U.S. remains the most competitive nation for information technology, according to a report from the Business Software Alliance.
The FCC announced the formation of a task force on Tuesday aimed at addressing the growing problem of delays and failures for rural phone customers.
FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski on Tuesday discussed his vision for how expanding high-speed Internet access can grow America's economy.
Thirty-four House Democrats wrote to the FCC's Genachowski on Tuesday, urging him to cap the amount of taxpayer funds used to subsidize broadband coverage in rural areas.
Automobile communication system OnStar announced Tuesday it would not follow through with changes to its privacy policy after coming under fire from lawmakers and consumers.
Reps. Joe Barton (R-Texas) and Edward Markey (D-Mass.) urged the Federal Trade Commission on Tuesday to investigate "supercookies."
Get TheHill's free daily Technology email
From Hillicon Valley Team the overnight email is a round-up of the day's top technology stories delivered every weekday morning.


text:
HBO Gets 'Hung'
The half-hour show, which stars Thomas Jane as a man who uses his, uh, gift to make a better life for himself, has received a 10-episode order and is slated for a summer premiere. The show comes from writers Dmitry Lipkin and Colette Burson ("The Riches") and director
Given that the show is about a guy with a large penis, Lipkin acknowledges that sex will be a big part of "Hung." But not the only part: "It has its sexual moments, but the show is very much about what's happening in the country, how people are trying to survive using what God had given them," he tells
Jane ("61*," "The Punisher") plays a high-school basketball coach in Michigan whose life is going nowhere, until he decides to make use of his best physical asset. The cast also includes
Lipkin, Burson and Payne will all serve as executive producers of


text:
| Money Talk
| Going rate on a thirty year fixed - TIGER2 on 6/6/15 at 9:20 pm
Thinking about doing a refi on a thirteen year old house. Current rate is 5.25%....
Posted on Money TalkView Topic - Replies (9)
| Outdoor Board
| Snake ID, did not kill. - TIGER2 on 4/6/15 at 9:52 pm
What Kind of snake. [img]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t194/lsuuncle/IMG_0447_zpsx7iv6hua.jpg[/img]...View Topic - Replies (2)
| Outdoor Board
| What would kill a rabbit and then cover it up to hide it. - TIGER2 on 3/24/15 at 5:00 pm
This is outside my kitchen window. [img]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t194/lsuuncle/IMG_0416_zpsmyhiahbz.jpg[/img]...View Topic - Replies (17)
| Political Talk
| Hillary was wrong,but she did not trust Obama and his prying eyes. - TIGER2 on 3/10/15 at 6:33 pm
She was afraid he would look into her daily running of the Secretary of state office, and bury her with any perceived mistakes when the time was right. He could then give this info to whomever Obama backs for president. Lots of other reasons, but this would be one of the big ones in my opinion. SHE ...
Posted on Political TalkView Topic - Replies (4)
| O-T Lounge
| Motor oil at -40F The good, the bad, and the ugly. - TIGER2 on 2/17/15 at 9:09 am
Not a concern for us down here in the south, but kind of interesting. [link=(http://youtu.be/uQ_vxdO_9nc)]LINK[/link]...View Topic - Replies (6)
| Outdoor Board
| Oil at -40 test. The good, bad, and ugly. - TIGER2 on 2/17/15 at 8:51 am
Not that we here in the south need to be concerned about this but it is kind of interesting. [link=(http://youtu.be/uQ_vxdO_9nc)]LINK[/link]...View Topic - Replies (3)
| Food and Drink
| Whole crawfish, but not just boiled. Have you ever done anything different? - TIGER2 on 2/17/15 at 8:23 am
I like boiled crawfish just fine, but wanted to try something different. Was thinking about a New Orleans style BBQ shrimp sauce. I like the beer, rosemary, garlic, L&P, butter style. Was thinking of having the sauce ready and boiling the crawfish in the traditional matter. Pull half out when finish...
Posted on Food and DrinkView Topic - Replies (4)
| Outdoor Board
| Custom knives - TIGER2 on 2/12/15 at 7:16 pm
[link=(http://www.doghouseforge.com/)]LINK[/link] This guy does some unique and beautiful stuff. It has the not over finished look, kind of old world feeling to it. Post some custom knives you like. ...View Topic - Replies (10)
| More Sports
| Did Belichick tell Brady not to snap ball when pinned back on own goal. - TIGER2 on 2/2/15 at 7:47 am
Belichick was talking on sidelines with Brady before they ran the play when Seahawks where called off sides. Looked like they were trying to draw them off sides. What say you. ...
Posted on More SportsView Topic - Replies (11)
| O-T Lounge
| Think I traced the term (Ginger) back to 1982! - TIGER2 on 1/25/15 at 11:16 pm
A movie called Ginger Meggs. [link=(http://youtu.be/R3isVOohiLQ)]LINK[/link] :cheers:...View Topic - Replies (3)
| Food and Drink
| R&O's in Buck Town last night,very good! - TIGER2 on 1/25/15 at 9:03 am
Helped a friend deliver a car last night and we stopped at R&O's for a quick bite before heading home. Cup of gumbo was solid. First off, the cup is bigger than what I see at most places. Lots of big shrimp, vegetables, and had an oyster in mine. Flavor was outstanding. We split the tossed shrimp sa...
Posted on Food and DrinkView Topic - Replies (5)
| O-T Lounge
| Ever start a new thread just to get a topic off the first page? - TIGER2 on 1/20/15 at 8:42 pm
BOOM!!!!JUST DID!!!!!! :dude: :booboo: :nana: ...View Topic - Replies (6)
| Outdoor Board
| Robins made it to Mandeville - TIGER2 on 1/9/15 at 1:20 pm
Cold air must have pushed them down. Seeing a lot of red wing black birds too. ...View Topic - Replies (4)
| O-T Lounge
| LSU transcripts, Can I get them on line. - TIGER2 on 1/3/15 at 3:12 pm
Can they be had on line, or a trip to Baton Rouge is the only way. Wife graduated in 1990 ...View Topic - Replies (9)
| Movie/TV Board
| What are some black movies you would like to see remade white? - TIGER2 on 12/30/14 at 6:58 pm
Please don't touch Shaft or dolomite. [img]http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.607989699613230063&w=98&h=108&c=8&pid=3.1&qlt=90&rm=2[/img]...
Posted on Movie/TV BoardView Topic - Replies (29)
| Outdoor Board
| Quick and dirty beef jerky - TIGER2 on 12/14/14 at 2:53 pm
Took some ground beef, but ground deer would work great. Seasoned it with salt sugar pepper garlic powder and curing salt. Let it sit on the counter for three hours to cure. You could use one of the jerky mixes from Academy. Rolled it out thin between plastic wrap. But it in a warm oven for three h...View Topic - Replies (4)
| Gaming Board
| My son wants this graphics card,does he really need it. - TIGER2 on 12/8/14 at 9:13 pm
Gigabyte GTX 770 GDDR5-4GB 2xDVI/HDMI/DP OC WINDFORCE 3X Graphics Card GV-N770OC-4GD Gigabyte GTX 770 GDDR5-4GB 2xDVI/HDMI/DP OC WINDFORCE 3X Graphics Card GV-N770OC-4GD [img]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61SBQFWaWrL._SL1000_.jpg[/img] ...
Posted on Gaming BoardView Topic - Replies (1)
| Saints Talk
| Big Ben looks like will Ferrel - TIGER2 on 11/30/14 at 1:58 pm
When he has his helmet on. Could be step brothers. [img]http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.607986667334405253&w=182&h=181&c=7&rs=1&pid=1.7[/img]...
Posted on Saints TalkView Topic - Replies (5)
| Outdoor Board
| Old beat up camper top for free. - TIGER2 on 11/28/14 at 12:22 pm
It fits late 90's/early 00's Chevy. I think it would be good for work or camp truck. in Mandeville let me know. [img]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t194/lsuuncle/IMG_0227_zpsa57f12ef.jpg[/img] ...View Topic - Replies (1)
| O-T Lounge
| O-T'er on Maury,lied to wife about being Navy seal!!!!!!!!!! - TIGER2 on 10/21/14 at 11:33 am
Any guess who he is? :lol: :usa:...View Topic - Replies (7)
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text: The It's Not Easy Being Purple wiki last edited by Deadknight on 02/21/15 03:21PM View full history A young girl grows into her mutant powers and learns that she is the daughter of none other than the Purple Man. She runs away from home and finds Northstar during a skiing exhibition and uses her ability to control him. Northstar saves the girl's life from an alligator and realizes that she needs to control her abilities. She commands Northstar to take her to Alpha Flight in the search of assistance.


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©2014 General Mills, Inc. All Rights Reserved. This information will only be used to send an email to your friend(s) and will not be saved. Please read our Privacy Policy.
Spinach-Artichoke Mini Bites
Luscious Artichoke Heart Pizza
Butternut Squash-Pesto Pizza
Deep-Dish Sausage Patty Pizza
Apple-Jack Chicken Pizza with Caramelized Onions
Creamy Chicken Marsala Pizza
Looking for a delicious side dish? Then check this cheesy vegetable pizza recipe made with Pillsbury® refrigerated classic pizza crust - baked in less than an hour!
The stuffed noodle dumplings called pierogi are a Polish specialty. This pizza uses two popular Pierogi fillings: spinach and mashed potatoes.
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4 bed, 3 full bath. Beautiful Cape Cod w/over 2900 sq. ft & no city taxes! Bedroom w/full bath downstairs as well as 2More info
4 bed, 3 full bath, 1 half bath. Come home to this fabulous floor plan in desirable Brandyhill II! Granite and stainless kitchen, spMore info
3 bed, 2 full bath, 1 half bath. Very nice home in excellent condition at the end of cul de sac with private, very low maintenance bMore info
5 bed, 3.00 full bath. This property is Real Estate Owned, or REO. The property was foreclosed and repossessed by a lenderMore info
3 bed, 2 full bath. Located in Rock Hill, this home is in the community of Mabry Park w/tree lined streets, community pMore info
3 bed, 2 full bath, 2 half bath. Exceptional 3BR/2/2BA brick ranch on . 75 acres in Rock Hill's Country Club! Great floor plan withMore info
3 bed, 2 full bath. 3 BR Home in fantastic Rock Hill location! 1 minute to restaurants and shopping! Beautiful coveredMore info
4 bed, 2 full bath, 1 half bath. Incredible home in a wonderful nbrhood. Move in ready with updates. Gourmet kitchen with stainlessMore info
3 bed, 2 full bath. Very nice well maintained 3br/2ba home in a great location! This is a all brick ranch with tons ofMore info
3 bed, 2 full bath. This beautiful split bedroom ranch home was previously a model home with very desirable open floorMore info


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What's your prediction for how the 2012-13 Premier League table will finish? Which clubs will fill positions one through 20? It's the million dollar question for this, the 21st season of the English Premier League. The bounty for the clubs who … Continue reading
Beginning this weekend, commentary of every single Premier League match this season will be available live for free from talkSPORT, the UK-based sports talk radio station. Under the new rights deal signed earlier this year, talkSPORT acquired the radio rights … Continue reading
There is a top player inside Jack Rodwell… somewhere. During his years at Everton he has shown, admittedly in glimpses, that he has virtually every attribute required in order to shine in the Premier League. He is naturally two footed, … Continue reading
Manchester City is about to make their first signing of the summer after Everton has agreed to sell midfielder Jack Rodwell to City for an undisclosed fee reported to be £15million. According to Everton, Rodwell is set to undergo a … Continue reading
The opening weekend of the Premier League season is less than 3 weeks away, and we now know what the TV and Internet schedule will be for that weekend, where every match will be shown live for viewers in the … Continue reading
Ahead of his move to New York Red Bulls, I think it's fair to say that Premier League defenders and corner flags alike will be glad to see the back of Tim Cahill. Signed from Milwall in 2004 for a … Continue reading
The number one Premier League game is open for the 2012-13 season. Fantasy Premier League, the official fantasy game from the Barclays Premier League, has opened its doors for the new season. And you can now join the EPL Talk … Continue reading
In one week, Everton supporters will be able to get their hands on the new home kit, provided by Nike (which has a 3 year deal with Everton) taking over from Le Coq Sportif, in time for the 2012-13 campaign. Gone … Continue reading
The final day of the 2011/12 Premier League season was the most dramatic there has ever been and arguably the most dramatic there will ever be. Although two of the teams to be relegated had already been decided, everyone's eyes … Continue reading
The Premier League has announced which matches will be shown on UK television between now and December, so we now know at least some of the games that will be shown on US television. This is by no means a … Continue reading
Starting today, we're going to bring you a daily post featuring the latest Premier League news stories. Even though Euro 2012 is over and the Premier League season doesn't start until mid-August, there's still plenty of news as you can … Continue reading
It's often said that supporting a soccer team is a bit like a marriage. I could trot out the old cliches about "ups and downs" and "twists and turns." But to be honest, some marriages don't last, some people have … Continue reading
Following the recent departure of Harry Redknapp from Tottenham Hotspur, attention has quickly focused on the search for his replacement. In recent seasons, the North London club has enjoyed spells of success in the Premier League and Champions League. Now … Continue reading
Since the 2011-12 season ended, the managerial merry go round in the Premier League has been more of a spinning top than a relaxing ride. Dalglish out, Rodgers in; Hodgson out, Clarke in; McLeish out, Lambert in; Di Matteo in … Continue reading
In recent seasons, Everton has encountered continued branding as 'consistent overachievers'. It's a term which when applied doesn't really make sense especially in football. For some, Everton finishing seventh last season was in itself an overachievement. Looking past the sales … Continue reading
Everton is back in black. The Merseyside club has unveiled their official away shirt for the 2012-13 season, and it's a distinct black color. Interestingly, The Toffees home shirt for the 1881-82 season was black. Designed by Nike, Everton's new … Continue reading
Every year, for the past few seasons, we've done a Premier League prediction table where I and you, the readers, make our picks on how the final Premier League table will look at the end of the season. The picks … Continue reading
The 2011/2012 Premier League season has been full of twists and turns, and will go down as one of the best campaigns in the recent memory. From the heart-warming story of Swansea and Norwich, to the season-long scramble to climb … Continue reading


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2004 Toyota Echo Q&A
2004 Toyota Echo Question: What is the average U.S. price charged for removing "sludge" from an engine?
15 Mar 2012 I took 2004 Echo 4dr Autotrans to dealer for scheduled maintenance. They told me the engine had "sludge" in it & it must be removed or engine replacement would soon result! The radiator, which was leaking, was also replaced(16400-21070)$576.31, 771 CP 1.50 $129.00, Sludge remove 771 CP 7.00 712.00, Cyl Hea Gasket (11213-21011) $23.36, +misc $ Total=$1584.39 Note: previous maintenance 12 Sept 2011 - axnu
Answer 1
I know of no average cost on sludge removal....it would vary in every individual case and would depend on where and how it would be removed. Sludge in a engine is like cancer in people ....it may never be compleatly removed unless the engine is taken apart compleatly and cleaned. Best thing to do is prevent sludge with routine maintenance. - milesauto
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text: Census of Law Enforcement Training Academies, 2002: [United States] United States Department of Justice. Office of Justice Programs. Bureau of Justice Statistics census data law enforcement police officers police departments police training NACJD.IX ICPSR.XVII The 2002 Census of Law Enforcement Training Academies (CLETA02) was the first effort by the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) to collect information from law enforcement training academies across the United States. The CLETA02 included all currently operating academies that provided basic law enforcement training. Academies that provided only in-service training, corrections/detention training, or other special types of training were excluded. Data were collected on personnel, expenditures, facilities, equipment, trainees, training curricula, and a variety of special topic areas. As of year-end 2002, a total of 626 law enforcement academies operating in the United States offered basic law enforcement training to individuals recruited or seeking to become law enforcement officers. 2005-06-09 census/enumeration data 4255 10.3886/ICPSR04255.v1 United States 2002 ICPSR metadata records are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 3.0 United States License (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/us/).


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Lovelee T.
Data Entry and Web Research Specialist
To find a job that fits my qualifications, preferably data entry and research jobs that require good computer and Internet skills. I am a hard worker with a CAN DO attitude and a strong drive for success. My hours are flexible. My work ethics are based around QUALITY. I'm also willing to be trained. If I'm given the opportunity to learn and acquire new skills then why not? I am a very positive person. To me, work is a blessing. With that in mind, I am ALWAYS able to give each and every project 1…more
Lovelee T. has added 1 portfolio piece. Create an account to review them.
Work History & Feedback
Converting Word Docs to PDF"Wonderful to work with. Timely and great communication. Highly recommended."
Online Marketing Researcher"Lovelee was a nice employee to work with, she is kind and communicates clearly. Would love to work with her again!"
Vital Lead Generation"Great work"
Research - Build a List of Quality Review Sites"Great job Lovelee... Thanks!"
Data Search & List Creation"Hi Lovelee,I just wanted to say thank you again for all of your hard work. The finished list is excellent and i'm sure it will be a massive help to our business!I will definitely have more work for you soon & I can only hope that you'll be available for it! Thanks again & congratulations on a job well done.All the best,Mike."
Data Entry Specialist"Awesome job. Will use again in future. Very smart, very organized, and made my job easier."
Web ResearchersJob in progress
|Percentile Score
English Spelling Test (U.S. Version)
U.S. English Basic Skills Test


text:
Commercial Bank of Africa
|Private Subsidiary
|Upper Hill, Nairobi, Kenya
Key people
|Desterio Oyatsi
Isaac Awuondo
Managing Director
|Loans, credit cards, savings, investments, mortgages
|Aftertax:US$36 million (KES:3.123 billion) (2012)
|Total assets
|US$1.363 billion (KES:118.3 billion) (2012)
Number of employees
|728 (2012)
Commercial Bank of Africa (CBA) is a financial services provider headquartered in Nairobi, Kenya, the largest economy in the East African Community. CBA is licensed by the Central Bank of Kenya, the central bank and national banking regulator.[1]
As of December 2012[update], the bank was one of the largest commercial banks in Kenya with assets of approximately US$1.363 billion (KES:118.3 billion), with shareholders' equity of approximately US$148.31 million (KES:12.9 billion).[2] It is the largest privately owned commercial bank in Kenya, according to its website. The bank focuses on serving the banking needs of large corporations, diplomatic missions, NGOs and high-net-worth private clients.
Commercial Bank of Africa Group[edit]
Commercial Bank of Africa (Kenya) is a member of the CBA Group of companies. These include:
- Commercial Bank of Africa (Kenya) – Nairobi, Kenya – 100% shareholding
- Commercial Bank of Africa (Tanzania) – Dar es Salaam, Tanzania – 100% shareholding
- Commercial Bank of Africa (Uganda) – Kampala, Uganda [3] – 100% shareholding
- AIG Kenya Insurance Company Limited – Nairobi, Kenya – 33.33% shareholding. Balance of 66.67% shareholding in AIG Kenya held by the American International Group.
The CBA Group is a large financial services group in Eastern Africa, with an asset base estimated at almost US$1.5 billion, with shareholders' equity of approximately US$150 million, as of August 2014.
The bank was founded in 1962 in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. Soon, branches were opened in Nairobi & Mombasa, Kenya and in Kampala, Uganda. When Tanzania nationalised private banks in 1967, the bank moved its headquarters to Nairobi. Following political changes in Uganda in 1971, the bank sold its assets in that country.
At the beginning, CBA was owned by a consortium of financial institutions known as Societe Financiere pour les pays D`Outre Mer (SFOM), based in Switzerland. Original members of the consortium included Banque National de Paris, Bank Bruxelles Lambert, Commerz Bank and Bank of America. In 1980, Bank of America acquired 84% shareholding, effectively buying out all the other SFOM partners. 16% shareholding in CBA remained in the hands of Kenyan investors. During the 1980s Bank of America divested from the bank, putting 100% shareholding in CBA in the hands of Kenyan nationals.
Commercial Bank of Africa is privately owned by twenty-six investors including the family of the Uhuru Kenyatta, Kenya's fourth president.[4]
The Chairman of the board of directors is Desterio Oyatsi, one of the non-executive directors. Isaac Awuondo serves as the managing director.[5]
External links[edit]
- Website of Commercial Bank of Africa (Kenya)
- Website of Commercial Bank of Africa (Tanzania)
- Website of Central Bank of Kenya
See also[edit]
- Commercial Bank of Africa (Tanzania)
- CBA Group
- List of banks in Kenya
- Central Bank of Kenya
- Economy of Kenya
- ^ CBK, . "Directory of Commercial Banks And Mortgage Finance Companies" (PDF). Central Bank of Kenya (CBK). Retrieved 4 August 2014.
- ^ CBA, . "CBA Financial Summary: CBA Annual Report & Financial Statements From 2008 to 2012". Commercial Bank of Africa (CBA). Retrieved 4 August 2014.
- ^ Nakaweesi, Dorothy (22 January 2014). "Commercial Bank of Africa Returns To Ugandan Market". Daily Monitor. Retrieved 4 August 2014.
- ^ "Kenya's CBA Bank Says Core Flaws Keep Rates High". Daily Nation. Retrieved 4 August 2014.
- ^ Directors of CBA


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Isn´t it strange that everybody agrees that adults should listen to children, yet the talk is held by a child behaving exactly like an adult? I think the audiance laughs and cheers because Adora did nothing you would expect from a kid She speaks in a very professional way and I think that is what makes her speech so adorable. But it shows the opposite of what she is trying to say: That adults should listen to children. But here are grown-ups who listen to an adult (an adults mind) in a childs body.So it is easy to think "Wow, if all kids were like her we would certainly listen to them." But then kids would be like adults.
Someone is shy
Kerstin hasn't completed a profile. Should we look for some other people?


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Hyundai Sun Bowl
Miami (7-5) vs.
Notre Dame (7-5)
Friday, December 31st, 2:00, CBS
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By Pete Fiutak
Miami vs. Note Dame used to be as big as it college football could get. It used to be when the Irish were at the height of their powers vs. a program that was the superpower of superpowers. It was Holtz vs. Jimmy. It was Catholics vs. Convicts. It was NFL athletes vs. NFL athletes. National titles were at stake, or at least it would play a part in the fun.
Now it's just a game between names.


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I am trying to color the image when user will touch the image.
I am using following code to color image, but in that I am able to fecth the RGB of the touch portion but not able to change the color.
Also I don't want to color whole image , see the image ,in that all the parts as having black border ,and once user will click on the particular part that color will be changed as per the color selected by user.
Please guide me how to change color for the selected part - also user will only touch one portion, and color will be filled automatically , but will not have to drag the finger to color the image. For above image - if user toches FACE then face color will be changes , same if touched leg then leg color will be changed.
Also from searching on google I found, CGMutablePath where we can provide color to image ,but this is also creating shapes by it self and not using the image.
One logic till the time I came to know is , we can store the point of image /parts of image in an ARRAY and on thouch event using that array MASK the image with other color or selected color, but do not have idea how to implement this things.