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I agree that GW2 would be a better game with defined roles (and got a lot of grief for suggesting such in a thread on here).
I am not sure I would want to be a 'Jack of all trades' though, I quite like specialisation. But what I would like to see is the ability to self heal and then some freedom on picking tanking, dps or control skills and stats. You still need someone to tank the mob, but a partial tank and a controller would be able to fulfill these roles, or maybe you could just control and dps mobs down fast enough not to take damage.Mon Feb 18 2013 6:13AM Report
The solo oriented gameplay in that plagues 98% of the game in GW2 just compounds this issue. Most people in the game spam dps because solo play encourages that, I ran twilight arbor a few nights back. 3 People in our group participated in healing. The dungeon was fun we had a few deaths but managed pretty well overall. Ran Caudecus Manor last night. I was the only one healing, everyone else was just spamming dps. It was a nightmare filled with dieting over a d over.
GW2 system could work if the players were not so broken..Overall game design just encourages it.Mon Feb 18 2013 7:09AM Report
a mix btw FFXI and Rift
1 character : 4 souls (warrior ,mage ,scout ,cleric) , u can swap btw souls at anytime , and inside that souls , classes :P , u still need to lvl each soul but with 1 char u can fullfill anyrole , just need to have tooons of specs
gw2 was fun , but yeah the dungeons were a mess , every man for himself , i missed the trinity in gw2 :( , was fun for a while but in the end , encounters and bosses were just , avoid aoe, avoid X ,and being melee was jousting everyother boss, go in melee with CDs , run away , go Ranged spam skills ,go in ,full CDs
soooooooooo boring
Mon Feb 18 2013 8:28AM Report
I would take GW2 over any holy trinity game out there, holy trinity is created to handicap players, its a dumbing down of gameplay for people that cant figure out complex character designs and remember more than pressing a few buttons.
No more hand holding, no more guide rails, no more weak character designs that limits gameplay.
Sure bunker elementalists is beyond the vast majority of players abilities...so? Why does every game have to cater to poor players that need to be able to faceroll?Mon Feb 18 2013 9:06AM Report
I want the trinity to develop even further...
I miss the days when the trinity was: Tank, Healer, Crowd Control, Puller
It worked great because if you were skilled in one.. you could lessen another.
Example, in EQ with a monk puller you could almost drop Crowd Control from the mix... because most things could be single pulled. Have a bard Puller you could double pull and charm on mob for extra dps...
The group makeup designed how you play... not the other way around like most games now.Mon Feb 18 2013 9:20AM Report
The trouble is that some people do not 'like' playing those roles. Myself personally, I enjoy all roles in battle. I love having a different persepective on things.
I do believe classes as a whole need to be more dynamic, or design encounters where the trinity focus is not required. Make the encounters challenging with obstacles to over come as a team and not so much hold agro, dps and heal.Mon Feb 18 2013 9:34AM Report
I really enjoy the trinity, this is due to the fact that I am a happy little Tank, and willing to heal if needed. So no matter what we need for a group I like to fill that role. Issue is that a lot of you have mentioned I really don't like levelling alts.
The issue with the Trinity and the reason why it seems needs to be fixed is that you find there are to little people willing to Heal let a lone tank, and this issue is 2 fold:
1. playing tanks and healers are boring for most players as it takes forever to level and when you get there only good for Groups and really hard to Farm for the raids and groups. So the Role is unappealing to play for the average player.
2. The player base is broken as mentioned above, but not for the reasons he says. Tanking his hard and gets even harder when you have players screaming at you going to fast, going to slow, you are a weak tank, reroll cause you suck... you name it I have heard it Then you get the random people that are a new breed of douche. I picked up WoW since vanilla to see what has changed with it all and levelled my Pally as I like to tank and heal. When I got to the point I can run level 85 Dungeons I got a real disheartening shock of how the community has become. All day I got "I am not running with a (expletive here) Pally tank, they suck and you suck for playing a (expletive) (expletive) class. This kind of takes the wind out of any tanks sails to the point you don't want to play one any more. I am not going to get into but will just touch the point of any group wipe is the tanks fualt always never mind the DPS that can't control his aggro and the healer that is totally under geared it is the Tanks fault.
Until any two of these things change you will see less tanks in games and it will seem the trinity is broken. As players will continue to sit in LFG for 40 to 60 mins trying to get that tank. As this tank will not play with PuGs.
On a note to Bill: your mention of a healer that heals while DPSing and selecting a heal target was in Warhammer online with the War priest/ Disciple of Kaine, and was great fun.Mon Feb 18 2013 10:01AM Report
I agree!
Like many people I applauded Guild Wars 2 for getting rid of the Trinity, it's been about 6 months now and I haven't played the game for about 3.
The reason for it is that I miss the trinity and without it GW2 is just mindless spam and every man for himself when in a group. Even though the rest of the game is pretty much perfect, that alone discourages me from playing since my favorite part of MMOs is running dungeons with people.
I always play a tank role, always, and the highest rush I had in WoW was successfully tanking an instance; I remember speed running heroics in Northrend and everyone in the PUG wanting to stick around with me because I was doing a good job. That feeling of being good at your role and having others praise you for it is unparallelled in an MMO.
Good luck tanking in GW2; without a defined tank role and without aggro mechanic, even if you have great dodging and blocking skills it's impossible to keep a MOB's attention on you. The part that kills me is that the mechanics are halfway there already.
For instance, I am perfectly capable of "solo tanking" most elite MOBs including the tree guys and giants with my Warrior. Using the block mechanics of a shield and mace along with well timed dodging you can survive a fight for a long, long time.
The problem is that you lack the DPS to kill the MOB before its damage eventually gets to you. Unfortunately, adding a healer to this situation breaks the whole fight because even though you are perfectly capable of staying alive and taking all the blows there is no way of keeping the MOB on you instead of going after your healer.Mon Feb 18 2013 10:13AM Report
I personally love having defined roles and would rather have multiple ALTs than having 1 character who can do everything. Reason being, most MMO's are gear dependant or stat dependant so unless you do away with stats, you're still going to need to grind for good gear for every role.
I'm not sure how FFXI got around stat dependancy if it did at all, but most likely, new MMO's will retain stats and gear for progression reward purposes.
GW2 dared to be different and it seems that most prefer the old ways of the Trinity + Support than what GW2 has to offer.Mon Feb 18 2013 10:21AM Report
Amen, brother! Were you reading my mind again, Bill!
I was just discussing to my guildmates in GW2 how I can't wait for Neverwinter and that I miss the Holy Trinity!
In GW2 it is more of an every man for themselves mentality. I don't need you -- I can tank! I don't need you either -- I can heal, as well!
Aside from PvP and WvW, GW2 encourages players to do everything themselves and I hate that! At that point, you might as well be playing a single-player game rather than an MMO. Like others have stated, GW2 is a DPS fest!Mon Feb 18 2013 10:48AM Report
The trinity is a great way of creating set piece combat. By now most experienced players have an idea of how it works, it's familiar and we are comfortable with it.
In my opinion it is the implementation of the trinity and player expectations that are the real issues.
Firstly looking at GW2 I feel that it possibly for many people went too far off the beaten path and that might have been more to do with the combat that it did with the lack of roles. That is a game where everyone is meant to do everything or take more responsibility for themselves. I have found that most people in GW2 take the route of least resistance - more damage wins the day, but once you bring this into group play it does not work as well. So this method results in what appears to most to be a total mess.
I personally would suspect if you allowed all classes to do all roles that eventually you would end up all classes being homogeous. That might be sinical of me but balance issues would be a problem.
The major problem at the moment is not the system itself (Tank, Healer, DPS) but how it is implemented. Most common group size for instance-like pve game play seems to be 5 (1 tank, 1 healer and 2 DPS) once you get into larger groups susch as 10-man (2 tanks, 2 or 3 healers and 5 or 6 DPS) you start to see why there is a limit on tanks and healers. If you are going to have roles then you need to create content that relies on an equal number of each of the roles otherwise you are creating a built in shortage.
Role swapping is great but more importantly, I think, is to make each role equally needed so that you spread out your player base.Mon Feb 18 2013 10:52AM Report
i think the main issue with the holy trinity is that most class designers are still designing pure dps in their games. With a pure dps class in a game you often then not see preople flocking towards that class because, its typically the easiest to play with the least amount of responsibility in a group role. Group finders are convienent, but with a majority of people playing a dps, que times go up and group dynamic goes down.
I think the easiest way to fix this is not going the extreme either way, which what wildstar seems to be moving towards(givin the last two classes revealed are the same context as the other), is to let classes serve a dual purpose. Giving you the option to heal/dps or tank/dps still gives the opertunity to be just a dps, but allows you to fill that crititcal role in that time of need when grouping. The biggest problem with this dynamic is making the classes unique enough to vary the playstyle of the game.
alts are annoying sometimes, but also lengthen game play. So differenciating the classes enough so that the warrior tanking role plays completely different then the stalker tanking role, is crucial to the games longterm play. Having that moment, "i really love my warrior tank, but i really want to see how the rogue tank plays," is almost as important to choosing your first class.Mon Feb 18 2013 10:55AM Report
I agree with <span com_who"="">fs23otm - old EQ style roles were nice because of the variety. Different groups would function different depending on what all classes you had. Trinity isn't necessarily good, but sextinity or whatever would be good like we used to have :P Not sure why devs were like screw having so many chocies. Let's make it only 3!!!!1Mon Feb 18 2013 10:55AM Report
make the healer and tank classes more appealing. Most mmos the tank and healer is so damn boring to play.
One of the most fun healers I have ever played in any mmo was in rift as a mage. They had the most fun system and it felt good... thats until the totally reworked the class and made it like any other mmo. Thats when I said fuck you to the devs and quit my sub.
Most fun tank I have played must be in TERA, I actually felt big and powerfull with my big ass lance and shield. And I dont stand in one spot and press 1 key the whole fight.
Make them fun to play and more people will play them, its just that easy.
Mon Feb 18 2013 11:05AM Report
My proposal comes from my experience mastering D&D 4e, as a game you cannot expect every class to do everything, nor one character do everything. But certainly you can escalate the dungeon.
Here is the thing, make certain clases have a sub role if they so wish for. For example, on D&D 4e, you have the paladin. The primary role is Defender (tank), but can vary as a striker or Leader (heals), that doesnt mean he will Heal but he can choose powers from its grid that allows others to heal so often. This happens with other classes as well, like the Warlock, while it doesnt allow others it allows himself to get some hp back, Bards and Shamans too, let alone the druid. The mechanics are good enought to keep a low profile healing party. The rest comes to the DM.
Said that you can escalate the dungeon easily, if a party lacks the healer it still can run, provide that you escalate the dungeon down so this "Low profile healing" party can go trough the dungeon without the need of one, but not making it easy either, you escalate the encounters. They will still have to work hard to beat the main guy, or the encounters but they wont be missing the healer so much.
You can combine this with the holy trinity and make it work, also you may want to apply bonus to the party base for escalated content, or even raise up the bonus for full party/raid content.
To me the holy trinity is a right thing from day 1, its just the devs that doesnt know how to apply it well enought or the resourses were limited back then. Still there are simple ways to tone it up and make it work.Mon Feb 18 2013 11:13AM Report
Completely agree. Was the one thing I was pretty sure would make me lose interest in GW2 and I was right (for me). Still a great game on many levels, but the dungeon dynamic left a vast ocean to be desired (for me).
I think though that people should have to level different specs but it should be done in a more unique way. There should be class quests. Long, somewhat story driven campaigns where the player is rewarded with skills and abilities.
The thing is though, these systems had been done long before GW2. Most specifically by Rift, but even WoW's dual spec system basically accomplishes this to some degree. It's not perfect, but it's a huge compromise over the initial designs. WoW just still has pure DPS which is the problem.
As long as there are what seem like a vast majority of people who do not want to tank or heal, or even support, there will always be queues, or trade channel spams looking for tanks / healers.
I remember marathon posts in the Rift beta about this. It's one thing to think that people just happen to be on their mage atm and that they actually have tank and healer alts, but most of the discussion I have seen leads me to believe that there are still a ton of people out there who simply only want to DPS.
Unfortunately it's too much to hope that they will all just stay in GW2.Mon Feb 18 2013 11:18AM Report
GW2 requires that you adapt to a different style of play. If you can't do this (either immediately or through a process of training yourself in game) then you should look for something else.
If you enjoy overcoming challenges then the GW2 system is completely viable. MMO homeostasis is put on its ear in GW2, so don't expect that game to mold to you, you have to do the opposite.Mon Feb 18 2013 11:31AM Report
FINALLY! SOMEONE GIVES FFXI SOME KUDOS! Let us remember our fallen MMO's and what they did SOOOO right!
FFXI - sub jobs / player housing and the items in it meaning something more than aesthetics / how challenging it was and how epic it was to beat the challenges.
SW Galaxies - complete player driven crafting and gear aquisition
DAOC - PVP (so i hear)
WarHammer Online - PQ's / Tome of Knowledge
SWTOR - Story driven content / your own ship! (wish you could play your ship like you do your character)
Mon Feb 18 2013 11:45AM Report
I think you will find most people getting bored with the slew of mmos released over the past 5 years bitching about the lack of change. Yet in reality they really just want to play the same old model wrapped up into something new, pretty much is all that's available anyway. 99% of mmos use the trinity model so it's safe to assume most gamers don't know anything else. It's all I knew, I never really liked it didn't make sense to me and only mmos seem to use it. I was never really hooked on one class and it seemed like the tank has all the fun and others just felt job related. Today I just find it restrictive, boring and as for the social aspect it evolved into a pass the blame fest, be it guild or pug.
I played Neverwinter beta it seems like a decent game. I just feel I'm pretty much playing 3 types of that game already. Many years ago we were a slave to basically 1 mmo maybe people still want that I don't know. Today it seems like there are more choices of pretty much the same thing. I just would like the idea if having more unique quality mmos to add to my weekly gaming time.Mon Feb 18 2013 12:01PM Report
Actually the problem with guildwars 2 is not the role-less system. It is that anyone trying to fulfil a role that is not everyman-for-himself has skills that are way too weak to have any effect. Its really a balance issue they have, not a design issue.
eg: A guardian can prevent you from taking 1 hit every 20 seconds. Great, if 2 members have a similar skill, thats 1 hit blocked every 10 seconds. But if you get hit 3 times by the mob and die anyways, that 1 block is pointless.
Another problem are the retarded boss mechanics. The majority of the boss fights oblige the players to play ranged, so you are left with 1 option, become ranged dps. For the same problems as above, heals are too insignificant to matter so all that is left is ranged dps.
So you say the player has to have "skills" and dodge attacks. Sure, but that defines in itself a role-less game and if you bring a group where 3-4 players dont suck, you auto win the dungeon. Why play it if there is no challenge?
Mon Feb 18 2013 12:01PM Report
I don't know, I sort of enjoy that a character can be one, or two of the Trinity. I haven't played GW2, but the statements here about the removal of the trinity seems like the logical outcome of such a move.
By removing the Trinity and allowing all roles to everyone, just clikc a button, I suspect everything to reach a level of mediocrity which becomes rather bland as opposed to in-depth mechanics for a class which can do one or two of the roles, but no more.
Of the classes I can think of from past games, only the WOW Druid could dual-spec talents and be both healer (resto), DPS (balance) and tank (feral). You never used the dual-spec that way, though. Or if you did, you had to get three separate sets of gear.
I think part of the "fun" of the trinity is that you could be really good at one of the roles. Get to know the mechanics so well, and know more about your role than many others. And if you did it well, you felt accomplished. Guildies looked up to you, you earned your way, so forth.
Taking that away, and basically making it more "generic", so that you can go into healer mode, dps mode or tank mode... it just makes that specialization go away. And I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not.
Closest I've seen that happen was in Champions Online. It's possible to build a multi-role character there, too, it's just not as efficient as a specialist. They did, however, come the closest to the trifecta you described - select what role you wanted to be in the dropdown, and as long as you have 2-3 healing skills and 2-3 DPS skills, as well as a DPS passive and a tank pasive, you can do it. It's just not "optimal".
Mon Feb 18 2013 12:05PM Report
I have no problem with the holy trinity, I would however like to see it expanded to have more roles. the only problem is that you need to make dungeons that aren't required to have all the roles to complete. which segregates the community more, Which is why i enjoy the TSW style Progression.
I can see the problem with Giving everyone everything, It would basically remove and Ability progression. the only thing you could do with it would be progressing skills themselves to higher levels. I dont know if i'm a fan of that. the removal of progression leaves the game a little stale, Trust me on this, i recently maxed out the skill wheel and my desire to keep going was pretty much halved.Mon Feb 18 2013 12:06PM Report
Personally, I like the idea of classes being fairly self sufficent when needed, which does happen when friends are not on or the game gets dead.
I also like the idea of strategy and some interdependance so groups are encouraged and can be very effective.
Here is my idea, have classes fill multiple roles but not all roles. That way you have your interdependance but also some versatilities. Also please please make a huge diversity of builds for each class I am so sick of one or two builds only.
I also like the idea of each class filling the roles in a slightly different way, to give more flavor and variety and strategy.
One problem I see with how most MMO's approach hybrid classes is that they tend to make them less effective then true trinity classes, thus less desireable in groups for specific roles.
Another idea that seems to go very unthought of i guess because it requires more work how about altering content based on the group and numbers involved? Why are groups always 5 mans? why not any size and scale accordingly. Or what about scale based on groups make up? No healers, have systems that replaces that, not making up for it totally but just somewhat so, like a god grants some mediocre healing every 30 seconds or something. All kinds of ways can be thought around the forced old model.
Whatever you do make the focus on strategy, variety and diversity. Thats what keeps games fun for the long term, at least for me.Mon Feb 18 2013 12:10PM Report
I don't mind if a fighter can switch out his shield for a twohander and deal damage, but I dislike systems where suddenly a fighter with no magic skill starts casting healing spells.
I'm OK with some versatility but I really dislike on-the-spot respec systems like in Rift.Mon Feb 18 2013 12:23PM Report
Roles are great and IMO better than everyone filling any role at anytime but FF XI method does sound good because it required work.
I don't know about everyone else but I'm getting very tired of Tank/Heals/Damage roles and would like to see a more unique mix with roles that may not even be combat oriented but still could help a group.Mon Feb 18 2013 1:05PM Report
Nice rant Bill. Agree its a hard problem to overcome. The closest I've played that comes close to you trinity-changing characters was Eden Eternal. Yes you had to unlock each of the roles but the bottom line was that each person could play all roles and you could switch between them. They did have to be levelled up but you didnt have to go to the beginning and levelling them was part of the fun.
Some of my fondest memories would be hanging out at a dungeon and debating if I would tank or DPS. One downside was never having enough bag space to hold all of your weapons and armors for the different classes.Mon Feb 18 2013 1:48PM Report
Like trinity, enjoy specific roles, do not mind alts. If I wanted to play a single player game I would. This "everyone can be everything model" is just not for me. I agree with fs23otm. EQ brilliantly added so much variety to the trinity. Some content required a certain kind of tank or pulls or CC to get through it. The group determined the playstyle. On top of which different classes added different utility.
Difficulty breeds community.Mon Feb 18 2013 2:35PM Report
My two cents: Holy Trinity and Anet system are both viable.
Let's consider two opposites: a group of 5 random players on one side, matched by a LFG tool who are barely paying attention to their main screen because they are mutlitasking while farming their daily task in-game; and a group of 5 friends on the other side, who always played togheter using voice comms and taking their gaming seriously (maybe too seriously? not my place to judge).
With the holy trinity, between these two groups we can have countless shades of grey, we can have an unorganized group who can barely make it trhough on one side, and the other group which is not failing a single pull/encounter on the other side. But in the middle you can have many ways to play the same content: groups who use voice comms to banter AND tell tactics (they make some mistake but they recover easily), groups of "pros" not in the mood to push too hard for today who are doing the bare minimum, and so on.
With GW2 there is not much choice, and this led many players to belive that the system is about zerg. The truth (in my opinion) is that there is simply no room for mistake: you either do an encouter perfectly, coordinating with everyone in your group, or you fail/zerg/respawn run untill the boss is dead.
I stopped playng GW2 because it was either too easy (just corpse run and suicide at the boss xx times and get your gear for showoff) or too hard. As a player I was in the middle, between the two groups, not able to achieve perfection and therefore "zerging", which was not fun at all.Mon Feb 18 2013 2:50PM Report
Just a general point but didnt Star Wars Galaxies sort this out, to some extent, years ago. Here is every possible class you can be, mix and match to your hearts content.
I appreciate, from what I remember, that there was a consequence if you wanted to re-roll and that really that doesnt help the "defined role" you make reference too, but that could easily be compensated for.
With that said I cant help but think of the Captain class in Lotro. This was an excellent support class, that could never really out-class the dedicated DPS, Healer or Tank; however when a group was short, having a "buffer" who maximised the skills of the classes you had and was able to provide some of what you were missing allowed groups to form regardless. I never missed out on a group with this class, they were always needed.
My honest opinion is that the trinity is great but the, often overlooked, support class is how you solve the problem. Some people enjoy being a "jack of all trades" able to do a little bit of everything at the cost of being a Grand Master.Mon Feb 18 2013 3:58PM Report
I think a very overlooked solution already exists: Make the classes playing the trinity roles FUN to play.
One peculiar thing about TERA healers is that there has never been any shortage of healers in that game since it launched. The healing roles - as healers - is actually very fun to do in that game.
At launch they had a problem with only having one class being able to LFG tank, that was solved in an August patch where the tanking dynamics for both tank classes were adjusted with the introduction of Resolve. Playing (and leveling) a Lancer is an absolute blast, and tanking with a Warrior has finally gone maintream due to being more intuitive for groups.
The latest patch has also introduced up to 5 Glyph setups that can be changed on the fly, so you can have a leveling setup for your Mystic to maximize DPS and a grouping gluph setup to maximize support - this has made soloing with a non DPS class much easier.
The solution for any game is make your classes fun to play. And that can be done without overpowering them. I know TERA is a game people think is trendy to hate on but it has executed some good things than one could only hope future games would keep in mind.
Mon Feb 18 2013 4:11PM Report
"If heler and tanks did good DPS, more people would play them" I see this all the time. Why more DPS? Because most MMOs are easy, solo content and blasting away with DPS is the fastest way to level. So healers and Tanks get "leveling envy" and go DPS.
The problem is two fold. One, it is far too easy to replenish energy/Mana/whatever, it becomes chain pulling and DPS without downtime. If health/Mana took longer to regen, Tanks and healers would be more balanced on abiility to pull and level.
Second, Solo content should be harder. I am not talking about "forced groupings", but groups should level faster than a solo adventurer. This means more groups, more need for Tanks, healer, support. all leveling equeally fast.
Add downtime back into the equation and suddenly chain pulling is gone as is the unbalanced leveling of DPS vs tanks and healers.
Mon Feb 18 2013 4:18PM Report
The Holy Trinity in EQ was tank, heal and crowd control. Damage was interesting, but in forming groups DPS spots were basically filler. If you had a good tank, healer and CC you could plod through any content.
Sadly, DPS has become a mainline role which 90% of the players want to play. I wonder how a game would fair if the holy trinity was tank, heal and utility (crowd control, buffs)--and damage was a side effect of those roles. No one enters the battle with the sole goal of doing damage.
It's not like DPS is a difficult role to play.Mon Feb 18 2013 4:44PM Report
This whole "holy trinity" nonsense was created by ArenaNet as a way of advertising their game. ZOMG WE HAVE NO HOLY TRINITY ZOMG WE DON'T HAVE A SUBSCRIPTION.
it was all just created nonsense to try and make Guild Wars 2 look like it was doing something different. In reality there are more than just three roles in most MMORPGs out there.
Tanks in most games come into multiple types. You have your main tank. You have your off tank. You have your ranged tank. You have your caster tank.
Support provide valuable buffs and debuffs.
DPS come in the melee and ranged variety.
Healers often split off into tank healers, raid healers, and healing over time healers.
Very often most classes can spec into multiple of them and in different fights different classes feature different roles.
The fact that people bought into this whole "trinity" mentality that the advertisers at ANet put out is still beyond me.Mon Feb 18 2013 5:06PM Report
Good rant, Bill. I agree with your feelings about GW2 and your ideas about how to enhance group forming without getting rid of the trinity.
You didn't mention Rift in your examples of partial solutions but their Soul system and multiple specs goes a long way towards addressing this. But the Rift solution is also only partial because not all classes have access to all 3 roles. Some do, but for many it's just 2 of the 3.
The other problem I saw there is that players themselves tend to specialize even when more options are available: they may be able to perform all 3 roles but they usually play one of the 3 roles significantly better than the other 2.
I don't think it's just a matter of having all 3 roles ready at hand. There is a mindset issue here as well that makes some people more suited to performing one of the 3 roles. You have to be trusting and have some leadership ability to be a good tank and you have to be willing to assume primary responsibility for the wellbeing of the group to handle the demands of healing psychologically.
Personally I do all 3 in MMOs but sometimes I just want to play one particular role. I often choose to go DPS when doing dungeon group content for the first time to learn the encounters. Only after I know the fights well do I feel comfortable about Qing as a tank or healer.Mon Feb 18 2013 5:08PM Report
jefftp wins the gold. This is exactly what I was writing up to post and he beat me to it by a few minutes. I've been trying to evangelize this approach for years, and this is the first time i've seen someone else recommend it. Make DPS basically equal for all classes, or a commodity, and then the game becomes about different ways to tackle content. Classes could be Control, Buff/Debuff, Heals, Tank, etc. All DPS does is divide a community.
Also, thanks Jeff for being one of a very very few people that actually remember that the Trinity in EQ was Tank, Heal, and CC. To everyone that does not know, DPS is NOT part of the trinity. DPS was filler to make the content go faster, but not required. Heck a good pulling Monk was worth more than any single DPS class in EQ.
Most games are becoming nothing more than DPS meters with some content thrown in for good measure.Mon Feb 18 2013 5:18PM Report
Leading up to the release of GW2, i had assumed that the developers had taken a completely different approach with the class system than what they actually did. I thought they had made it so that all or nearly all classes would have the option to take on different roles of the trinity as they chose, more in the way a paladin or warrior may choose to dps or tank, or actually more like the way a druid in WoW can choose which role class to clone basically and then gear and talent customization would further benefit that choice.
Basically, I thought they gave druid forms to every class. And i still think that would work.Mon Feb 18 2013 5:52PM Report
People have been playing with the holy trinity for decades.
They do two GW2 dungeons (which are much more difficult than the rest of the PvE) in a game that they barely know the systems, what is optimal and what isn't and get their asses kicked.
What they do?
They quit and claim for the system they are used to, that they understand after playing it for thousands upon thousands of hours.
The rest of the the players that didn't quit just became much better at clearing the dungeons, so much that Arenanet just removed the ressurrect at the spawn point while someone of your party is in combat so no more spawn zerging.
Mon Feb 18 2013 6:01PM Report
Also one of the problems I've with the holy trinity (aside empowering the least played roles) is how non-interactive it is.
As a healer I don't care what class the tank is, just that he is a tank. My work as healer is exactly the same regardless of the particular mechanics of that tank class.
As a healer one could change the tank and the DPSes mid fight and I might not even notice.
As the tank I don't care how the healer keeps me alive ir how the DPSes deal damage.
As a DPS I don't care how the tank and the healer work - their mechanics is their problem. I don't even care how the other dpses do their damage.
You need to learn your role and thats it.
In a game like GW1 & GW2 knowing how the other classes play, what skills they can bring to the table. what they are good at and their weakness will improve my own performance.
The specific classes and their skills have an impact that is been removed from most holy trinity MMORPGs,
It is already a pain having to find a healer or a tank, narrowing even further that subset by requiring sprcif skills only a fraction of the tanks or healers can bring is incredible frustrating, especially in games that favour one main instead one of each class.Mon Feb 18 2013 6:34PM Report
Wanting roles without having to actually specialize sounds like you want a game this isn't about character progression in the first place, but rather is about choosing a character out of a roster to play, just putting your name and number on the jersey before heading out onto the field.Mon Feb 18 2013 7:10PM Report
Going to have to disagree with you here based on my own experience in MMO's over the years, over one point, and I think that Final Fantasy had it right.
The problem lies (with me) in one word: Accomplishment. Your proposal takes accomplishment out of the equation, which in a sense can completely ruin the experience for many players. If you ever played Everquest, or FF, you understand the true meaning of being "attached" to your character. The more time invested, the greater the attachment. That first level 60 in Everquest was a mighty feat. I recall walking through the East Commons tunnel feeling high and mighty knowing other players were /con'ing me and I was coming up red, because was max level, out of their range. In today's MMO, this attachment has simply faded. Your suggestion makes it completely extinct. Take out the time and effort spent into leveling these roles, and you take out the pride people feel in their accomplishment.
What we really need is this, and Mark Jacobs mentioned it in his interview about Camelot Unchained last week: Forced Social Interaction. Players need to be in a game where they feel COMPELLED again to play with others. Developers making games to appeal to the masses is not going to accomplish this feat. A game needs to come along that is focused towards a specific audience, those of us who want to feel accomplished and feel that attachment all over again to our characters. Without this, games will continue to be developed that hold the attention of players for a few months at max, and they will move on to the next flavor of the week, or worse (in my opinion) go back to what they know best (i,e., their first love) which more often than not is WoW. Shameful as it may be, the game with the most longevity is going to the one we most likely return to when we feel that we have run out of options.
I use EQ as an example because it was my first long term experience in an MMO. I just recall how tough it was, and at the same time, how rewarding it was. You felt a sense of pride after all the time and effort put into it. And I do realize that not all things can be the same as they were in those days. Many of us, myself included, do not have the time to sit around and form and complete raids that take 8 hours in a day. The point is to try to appeal to an audience in a different way, while retaining some of those more hardcore aspects to make us feel accomplished. To do this we need games that do not allow players to solely rely upon themselves and themselves only to plow through the content. How many players do you know that are going to play a healer when they spend most of the game soloing? Whats the point, right? It's just going to slow you down, and you know it's not completely necessary because "someone else" will do it, and you are just concerned with getting yourself maxed out as quickly as possible. Change that up. Force group play, make groups easily obtainable, and make the game tough without them (if you are going to do PvE content in the first place). More players will want to play that under utilized role, because they don't have to feel gimped being one of the more "under powered" considered classes in the game.
I think that you are on the right track with your thinking, but there are better ways to go about solving the problem than taking the GW2 formula one step further and allowing everyone to be absolutely everything with no investment involved.Mon Feb 18 2013 8:02PM Report
First off the LFG channel is inefficient and not enough.
In WoW Burning Crusades they introduced a group finder that was simply a list of everyone for each instance and you could enter your role. You could quickly build a group with that tool or just sit there and wait to be picked on. If you were known for playing your class well and not being a jerk you had a good chance of finding a group quick. It worked well imo.
Never to be seen again in any other mmo that I played. I thought it would be everywhere buy now.
Now as for the class system, there is one problem to address. While a healer class could simply use their attack stat for heal spells in some way the tank stats are agro and defensive stats. How do you turn those into dps or heals?
The answer is to have gear with DPS/Heal/Tank modes for every class and abilities/spells for all 3 as well. It sounds like a lot of work to manage but once it is all set up you would just pick a mode for armor and the appropriate build to go with that mode.
You can always refuse Tank/Heal/DPS but if you want to switch to meet the needs of your situation and circumstances you can.
Also when a DPS guy blames the tank for a wipe then he can prove it and show the group how its done or STFU.
The best game I played so far for instance class play is Tera, but does not have an instance list like WoW and you have to reroll to play as a different class. Everything is just better without tab targeting.Mon Feb 18 2013 8:48PM Report
Why does class determine ability? Why can't it be equipment? If someone can point a magic wand, they can cast a spell. If they can read a book, they can cast a healing spell. If they can carry a shield, hey guess what, there is your damage soaker. Hey you, any good with that dagger? Then stab that thing in its foot. Yeah, you over there with he bow, shoot it in its eye.
Way too much dependency on the old TSR class base system instead of raw abilities and equipment. Do you know what I would love to play? A cleric that can dps, a rogue that can tank and a ranger that can heal.
Oh wait, I did. NIN/WAR Tank in FFXI. A bard/rangermarks and also a cabalist/inquisitor/defiler in Rift.
The problem is not in the game mechanics in said MMO. The problem is the community that humps the leg of min/maxing and cookie cutter builds to stay relevant in todays MMO endgame scene.Mon Feb 18 2013 9:54PM Report
I like the trinity because it allows me to play like I like to play. I generally play a healer or hybrid/control character. You just don't get those in games without.
GW2 people like to say there are roles but that is said with the loosest possible definition of the word. Most things are free-for-all in order to stay alive. I've had instance mobs tunnel vission you to death and there really isn't anything you can do.
I don't have a problem with people being able to swap roles but I do have a problem with the constant nerfing of content to allow for those unpracticed at their modified role.
All in all, I look forward to more holy trinity games and after GW2, will likely shy away from no-trinity games as I find them dull after a few months - despite the fantastic styling GW2 had.Mon Feb 18 2013 10:20PM Report
epoq - EQ it was level that you got that feeling...maybe you go there late and 60 was max level then though ;).
In EQ on my shaman i hit 60 and was so proud. A GM even whispered me congrats and I was in shock. I felt like such as badass!Mon Feb 18 2013 10:21PM Report
Games need to bring back meaningful crowd control. There is no reason to have a support or CC class if there is no fear of death from trash pulls. Some npcs just had to be ccd back in eq days.
Trains dont exist in modern mmos sadly no one has open dungeons anymore, its just your group. Fix this and you will fix the problem with the current iteration in mmos.Mon Feb 18 2013 10:39PM Report
For all the stuff I loved while playing GW2, the moment it came to group play in Dungeons I couln't stand it. I would not say the Trinity is the best or onlly way to get it right, but the GW2 system went in the wrong direction. It felt chaotic and lacking teamplay most of the time, worse than the lack of specialized classes (roles where there kind of) was the absence of reliable agro-mechanics. I like PVE for being an organized effort, the sheer randomness of the GW2 dungeons made me stop playing.
Rift system was great in concept, I didn't play very long to experience it later in game, but it looked nice. Secret World system isgreat as well, be whatever you want whenever you want, but the moment you get into a dungeon, Trinity gameplay is recommended (but not enrirely necessay)...Tue Feb 19 2013 12:34AM Report
Everquest was and still is the best. The dumbing down of roles to simply 3 was done by WoW and has been the model ever since. People need to go back and realize the possibilities mmos had BEFORE Blizzard came along....
Tank, Healer, Crowd control, DPS, Support/buffer, Puller.
EQ had more rolls for everyone and so many zones with different possibilities. I remember being in groups with 3 mages using their pets as main tanks. I was in groups of al shaman and druid doing every roll. Crowd Control and Pulling were vital back then and there were mulitple classes who could do it well. I hate the idea of "everyone can do anything" whats the point of having a class or even a character if everyone basicly can do anything. That is not a RPG. Remember what that stands for people..... ROLE playing game? ... Please stop dumbing down mmos for children and casual players. Its not doing any good for the industry.Tue Feb 19 2013 1:07AM Report
If a mob is after you all the time in GW2 just keep running or have your team mates drop some CC on it or some boons on you.
The randomness of it actually makes teamwork more important and visable.
And the sheer adrenaline of running around being chased by dozens of mobs while dozens of traps trigger everywhere and come out of it alive is undeniable.
There are roles - as a warrior I'm much more focused on dealing damage than when I'm playing an elementalist where I'm much more focused on the placement of combo fields and correctly changing attunements to give my allies the right buffs.
Again, most players complaining played it a couple of times in the early stages, got kicked and quit.
Were you guys using food buffs and utility buffs? Sigils? Runes?
Tue Feb 19 2013 2:28AM Report
The problem with trinity is that most people are used to it and like most simple things and trinity is most simple (dumbed) way to go around it.
After playing GW2 (and on a higher level mind you 0 deaths in dungeons etc) i actually see that trinity is an redundant and very limiting factor to encounter design because in its basics you can design encounters only one certain way - the trinity way. Then you add elements that are not in any way connected to trinity but are still hampered by the trinity.
Trinity also encourages non social, non cooperative play because you dont need anyone else to do your role but you need other people because your class (role) is essentially total (artificial) gimp, which was most visible in "old school" games (that artificial thing).
Its also immersion breaker becauses bosses that are supposed to be threatening and intimidating are reduced to these stupide entities that somehow go for most armored, toughest guy in the group instead one shotting that healer that stands few meters back just because "tank" banged his shield or something.
AD&D didnt have hard trintiy at all, i dont really know where this missconception was born, all classes could tank and deal damage and healing was majorly done out of combat, if played right, "bosses" werent so stupid as in trinity games and intellient ones went for weakest ones or for REAL threats instead of some artificial "threat" mechanic.
Trinity is redundant system that only hampers developers AND players, it makes for a good exuse of "you failed" instead of "we failed" (lack of teamwork) and any game that want to make any kind of more complex encounters with many more options will have to ditch it.
Giving classes ability to play multiple roles is not the answer, you have Rift as an example where community decided that "only this class with this soul can tank" or "hela" or...which makes 90% of souls redundtant or SWTOR where most of classes (6/8) can do multiple roles (tank/dps or heal/dps) but there is still chronic lack of tanks and healers.
I had my eya on WIldstar, but after playing GW2 and learning Wildstar will have trinity i almost completely lost my interest because i cant realy go back to such simplistic non-teamwork non-coordination way of playing. I want "WE" in my games not "I" which trinity doesnt provide.Tue Feb 19 2013 2:41AM Report
Game On
Greets Peeps,
Bill, while I agree with much of what you have said, not just in this vidoe, but the 2 hours of streaming live Neverwinter, there is indeed something missing. I agree the holy trinity may never have needed fixing I think perhaps in needed amending, perhaps become the holy quad.
One thing often over looked is the need for support roles. Yes, it is true that in many DPS roles may have support abilities, but so few were pure support. That is, until RIFT. The game you so oftern overlook in ALL your videos, perhaps you have issues with TRION?
I am not going to say Rift is by far the best game ever, hell I dont even sub to it any more and I have not purshased the expansion, however, I did spend 18 months playing Rift and as has been said above, Rift got it right, well, as close to right as possible.
I love DPS roles, I love my rogue, and stealthy attackes, blinking here and there backstabbing my foe. :) Who doesn't right? All fun till someone gets an eye poked out. Oh.. wait. that's fun too. But, yes there is a but, along came the Rift Cleric class. A single class that, with the use of Rifts ROLE system, I could build a multiple healing roles that are specific to the content, ie HoTs or Burst heals, I could also build a HEAL TANK, oh.. wait, I can also build a support off healer who does ranged DPS, and I can build a seriously effective AoE trash annihilator, or pure raged DPS. Having then, 6 role spaces, I had a pretty well rounded, exceptionally diverse cleric.
This is not only true for the cleric, but the mage also had some really good builds you could put together that were just as effective a healer, just as effective at trash control, and some very serious ranged DPS. Same can be said about the rogues builds, DPS both ranged and melee, its tank role for both main and off tanking, and even had some self heals to boot, not to mention its BARD. The Bard was an awesome and often required role for buffing and debuffing, as well as off healing the healer and tank.
So, in short, a very well rounded system that really worked well when the group had a set of roles they could switch to and from at will, OOC of course. Come to think of it, even the dungeon finder made use of Healer, Tank, DPS, and Support Roles to form parties. So, in closing, perhaps we need think of a modern day party as the Holy Quad, and not just the Trinity. Perhaps that is something you can expand or elaboate on for a future video. :)
Footnote: No, I do not work for Trion. And yes, TSWs classless system is cool, but takes forever and a day to purchase all the skills needed to build well rounded, diverse charactors.
Game OverTue Feb 19 2013 3:09AM Report
Im happy GW2 made a game without the trinity. Although trinity can be necessary for a game, it just takes too long to find a party and forming up your needed classes. This is what makes a game boring, just standing in the town square shouting at LFG for hours for a tank or heal cause you know the good ones are already taken.
Take into account a game that has been out for several months and the server population is not very high anymore. How do you create a party if those dedicated tanks and healers are not there anymore?Tue Feb 19 2013 5:57AM Report
In TSW you don't have to play as a tank or healer to obtain the abilities need to tank or heal.
You earn AP/SP which are role agnostic (they can be applied to any acquire any ability, regardless of its role relative to your current role).
As a result, every every member of my current group has the abilities and gear to do all three roles even without having directed any particular effort towards being able to do so. In parcticular each member can engage any playstyle in the game with any combination of weapons and skills at will. Granted, it took one of our members 6 months to get to that point, but they only play 6 hours a week, and they are only interested in playing healers.
Tue Feb 19 2013 8:22AM Report
I agree that a great many people would hate the loss of class identity that occurs in a world where warriors and rogues/thieves could be dedicated healers. I don't know how I would feel about it myself, and I quite enjoy hybrid classes.
But if you again consider FFXI's job system, it allowed for flexible role swaps while maintaining very distinct job (class) identity. When you switch to a white mage/summoner from a ranger/ninja, it was as complete a change as if you were swapping to an alt. Really it wasn't much different than leveling and using an alt would be in most other games. It just came without having to log off to switch characters, or earning completely different sets of gear.
I've honestly always loved the FF job systems too (from FFV, to tactcis, to their MMO and even FFX-2), and I've always wondered why I haven't seen a similar system in another game. It has both flexibility and depth.Tue Feb 19 2013 8:38AM Report
Kingmod23 wrote: imo thats the real question and thats the solution too.
WoW got it right with 2 classes and Rift with 3 (if i remember right).
So why they dont apply the same sence to every class? They show that they can. maybe it will be a pain in the @@ for them but hell they can do it. They know and they have the solution to trinity already.Tue Feb 19 2013 8:50AM Report
in WoW, a Paladin or Druid can fullfill any role without releveling anything.
imo thats the real question and thats the solution too.
WoW got it right with 2 classes and Rift with 3 (if i remember right).
So why they dont apply the same sence to every class? They show that they can. maybe it will be a pain in the @@ for them but hell they can do it. They know and they have the solution to trinity already.Tue Feb 19 2013 8:53AM Report
I think the holy trinity is there... because it works. However, where it has traditionally been a menace are in games where characters are locked into a specific role... or worse, locked into a role that doesn't really fulfill any of the trinity roles.
However, more and more games are moving towards flexibility. Allowing me as a player to have access to multiple roles. Rift does this with its soul system. FFXI and FF14 do this with their class and job systems. TSW does this with their ability wheel.
And yes, GW2 does this as well. You can kit out your class to essentially fulfill any of those roles.
Where this flexibility fails is that most players tend to solo as they level. So their "main" kit (no matter what the game is) is going to be an odd hybrid of each role (mitigation, survivability and dps). When thrown into a group, players aren't specializing which can make content quite difficult.
In TSW, I'm constantly tweaking my builds. Sometimes, as a healer, I find that if there is an off-healer, I may need to enhance my dps in favor of dropping some healing. Or, if I'm a dps, I may slot in some healing to ease the demands on the healer.
But I do think, having some sort of "constant" grouping/teaming language is important. It doesn't necessarily have to be the "trinity", but a system that encourages players to specialize into a specific role when working with others... thats optimal.
Tue Feb 19 2013 9:01AM Report
Pope is so angry about GW2 not having the Holy Trinity he is stepping down.
We need a Pro Bowl for developers, se each major developer on the teams listed above could come together and create the ultimate game.Tue Feb 19 2013 9:19AM Report
Interesting idea, but would you get your different skills for free?
What would be the challenge in that? I still feel that to become a better tank, healer, dps, or support class, you need to work at it, level up, earn skills and skill upgrades for EACH sub-class or skill.
If you did that with your hybrid system, and only worked on the tank aspect, wouldn't you need to work, gain exp, and so on in your other talents as well? You shouldn't get them for free, and that's what your video seems to tell me.
I think UO succeeded at this. You can't be a god at every sub-class, but you could choose to be very good, at a few types, or great at 2 or 3, like the tank-mage. Some people hated tank-mages, but personally, if you spend the time getting your melee and magery skills up, why not be able to use both? You put the effort in. You can't be a god either, because there's a stat cap and skill cap.
I've said this before. UO is still going for a reason, and it's not free-to-play. It's one of the longest lasting sub-based games there is. Of course it's also one of the only games now that has an open, sandbox world that almost no DECENT game has now or has been able to replicate, that isn't a mindless gank-fest. I've tried *every* sandbox game out now, and they are absolutely terrible. None are truly finished, none are triple A titles, etc.Tue Feb 19 2013 9:20AM Report
Whats wrong withe the holy-triniy.
"LF Tank pst" -insert wait time here
"LF Healer pst" -insert wait time here
should we not be able to grab 4 friends and go do something. And be playing the classes we want/would like to play, with our friends.
Not Oh sorry John you need to reroll a tank or dps we already have a healer etc etc.
PnP games were that way,for the most part,and mmos are based off of those concepts,for the most part. Party full of fighters anyone? {grins}
Point being, Im not for or against the Holy Trinity, Just give me a game I can emers my self in and have fun! real tired of the focus targeting on one mechanic or another
Lets be honest most GOOD or GREAT games were not planned out, they were thought up. Mythic, Bungie,-insert small company that became big because of one game here-, and then some big company gobbles them up and tries to make what $$ they can off of them before spitting them out.Tue Feb 19 2013 11:07AM Report
I'm with most of the people here in loving the holy 3 or 4 if you take CC into it.
I do not think every class being able to do everything is the way to go. I would say having each class being able to do 2 of the 3 would be a good mix and make a little more sense. Like with WoW and having an off spec. it makes a lot of sense and could work out well.
But like others have said we do not have the gaming community we once had. We have a group of people that look out for number one and treat everyone else like number two (if you get my meaning).
Finding a group of older gamers (not meaning in age) that likes to and will help each other get things done and takes pride in the accomplishments of fellow guildies is very hard and rare.
As a tank in EQ (the original one) I cannot count the number of hours I spend with my guild mates camping this rare drop of this rare mob so the cleric could get his clickie. Or how many hours they spent with me so I could get my light sabers.
The friendships out of those time lasted for years and if those people were still playing game and we did not lose track of each other I would still like to play with them.
To cut this short it is the gaming community that need to take their ADD drugs and try to enjoy the ride a little more and not just see who can get to the end the fastest.Tue Feb 19 2013 12:26PM Report
A next-generation solution would use some old RPG or MMO mechanics in a new way:
First, categorize mobs: animal, undead, spirit, humanoid, animated/machine, etc. Then, sub-categorize by what type of attacks it gives as well as what types of attacks it resists/absorbs and the types it may be vulnerable to.
Types of attacks would be physical, poison(nature), magical, elemental (diff types), holy, unholy, disease. Your HP bar would be a bit more complicated: if you were taking unholy damage a simple heal spell might only heal at 25% the power that the heal would usually perform when healing physical damage.
Now here's the twist: use these different ways of attacking as defending as the determining factor of each class' role in the encounter. Some examples:
While fighting against unholy opponents fighters have poor resistance but necromancers have high resistance; necro's act as the taunter, the tank. Priests are the dps in this encounter with their powerful holy attacks. Give warriors CC ability against undead and rogue class act as healers due to some special undead "potion" they can quickly mix and throw on their friendly target.
Now we are fighting animals: fighter tanks, priest heals, and mage and rogue roles vary from support to dps depending on the animal's resistances.
In some cases, the best tank and dps class might be the same against certain mobs. It would be rock, paper, scissors squared.
Not sure if any of this is making sense, but in summary I think it would be fun and challenging if a game required the party to switch roles and group strategies on the fly depending on the enemy they are facing.
Tue Feb 19 2013 3:38PM Report
As someone here said, I'm also tired with holy trinity system. We've been there, we've done that, you can still play WoW, LOTRO, RIFT or TERA.
Sure it has it's pros that Bill mentioned nicely, but there are flaws too. Having only one task to do is making whole game shallow as you focus on only one thing. While alone this isn't so bad it does make content very repetitive as the system it's really old now.
But the biggest flaw is the blaming game. Tanking/healing is much more responsible task then simply doing dps. Doing 1k dps instead 2k is way less noticable then wipe due to bad healing/tanking. And dramas will be back. This is main reason of not enjoying group healing/tanking. Seriously solo playing tank/healer calss be it in WoW/Rift/Lotro/TERA is fun and the age of slow and boring gameplay is long gone. Still in the end someone will still be forced to tank/heal. And the "LF tank/healer pst" will be back.
Adding tank/healer role for everyone would be nightmare to balance. If not balanced there will be good healer class and bad that no group will want. Then it comes equipment and stats. Then finally even if you give it to everyone for free, there is a learning curve. Mastering all healing, tanking and dps roles takes time and practice and people will still prefer Jon our regular trusty tank instead Mike the regular dps acting as a noob tank today. See blaming paragraph above.Tue Feb 19 2013 4:23PM Report
Bill I don't like your idea about morphable characters as I imagined it from your video. It seems too utilitarian, and kind of a heavy-handed way to achieve what you want.
I agree that some sort of role coverage ability is a great idea, but it would have to be done in a way that doesn't make my character just a mish mash of every available skill. There's no identity there to the characters if they are all masters of everything.Tue Feb 19 2013 4:29PM Report
I respect your opinion.
But I have literally spent 2 hours of an evening lf a tank.
I have literally wasted 2 hours of an evening when a healer misses their heal and the entire instance needs to be repeated.
I have seen one person's ragequit or "sorry, real-life issue" ruin a scheduled run.
I suppose you could make it easier to accomplish. However, in the end I'd rather be playing than waiting to play. And I'm not quite sure the ability to switch roles at anytime will solve it.
Some people hate tanking. Some people hate healing. Some people are horrible at both.
Tue Feb 19 2013 5:04PM Report
So many great comments and ideas. Thanks to all that posted.
Like many, I've played "them all" and am currently waiting for NW and ESO while playing GW2.
WoW and RIFT have been my favorites so far over the years and I always roll a healer as my main. I miss it in GW2.
As many have said, the soul approach (RIFT) or the dual-spec (WoW) worked really well imo, although carrying around 2 sets of gear or remembering to switch gear (without a MOD) was a pain. Still it's not necessary to level another toon, simply collect the right gear or learn another rotation. Gear could have drop down menus where instead of +35 dmg, +35 healing could be selected...hence, 1 piece of gear. The drop down menu gear modification would also alleviate the issue of receiving drops that don't benefit anyone in the group. These could be set to auto change when another spec/soul is chosen. But, if a priest wants to select +65 strength instead of wisdom, the gear allows it.
The Chloromancer was the most awesome imo as one can heal by simply dpsing. This is basically what Bill described. Although, as I'm not a game developer either, I can't imagine how a dpsing rogue could heal a raid group or whether they'd want to...in my experience, players who choose the dps classes do so because they don't want to be healers or tanks.
There's also the last option of developing henchmen that fulfill rolls as needed. They could be developed on a guild level or solo. So if you like to roll a tank, you can have a healer hirling - able to take the punishment of a WoW raid level heroic dungeon. There can be crafters for the gear or even the construct of the toon itself...auction houseable...etc.
I simply love the holy trinity and being a healer, but I can completely agree it sucked/sucks trying to always find a tank or dps while hating what a LFG system does to the community.
Tue Feb 19 2013 5:49PM Report
I feel like MMOs have taken the idea of making quality of life changes to finding groups, but then the idea of simplifying the class system is still around. They are two fixes for one problem: a complex class/role system holding people back from being able to do group content. And it just makes the game boring when you have both solutions to fix the one problem. A complex class and role system isn't a bad thing, it just comes with the unintended problem of making ot hard to do group content. If you have a good group finding tool in place, you no longer need a simplified class system. You can find the roles and classes you need for the content. People no longer need to be jack of all trades or able to switch roles on the fly. And then the game just becames a watered down, simplified version of a RPG, and loses the whole "choose how you want your character to be and experience the game as this character" because suddenly your game experience becomes the same as everyone else simply because the class system is so watered down and same-y.
If Everquest had a LFG tool back in the day, it would have been one of the greatest MMO experiences ever, IMO. Think about it.Tue Feb 19 2013 6:17PM Report
You people realize that it's exactly the the kind of thing Murphy is asking for here that helps make MMOs suck? I mean why not go the next step and just have a max character who can switch between all roles just handed to you? Why even bother leveling at all?
This is why people are getting sick themeparks. There's no meat, no longevity anymore? You run from quest to quest until the content is all used up, and then you leave because you are bored. Depending on the player, this is taking between 30 and 90 days for a lot of gamers.
We already know from people like Smedley, and the myriad of failed or medocre MMOs out there, that playing the content chase game isn't a sustainable business model. What Murphy is asking for is an MMO game where you can level your character in a short amount of time, then all you have to do is play content and end game. Please, just shoot me now. Themeparks that make you level up each class are still mind-numbingly easy and fast. I don't know who this type of game appeals to, but it's not me. I'm a casual MMO player too, but based on that I do not expect the game to be easy mode just to cater to the time I have available to me. All that ever results in is pure boredom.Tue Feb 19 2013 6:55PM Report
By the way, I didn't mean that to sound harsh towards Bill, it's just that I don't see how handing everyone all the roles at once does anything to help these games become more interesting at a time in gaming history where they are becoming less so.
It's also worth noting that people tend to play the roles that interest them. Someone who prefers DPS is not likely to spend much time healing or tanking, and so to make those extra roles viable for people who don't really want to play them, they will have to be dumbed down even further. There's something to be said about a person who takes the time to become a *really* good tank player, or a really good healer, support, CC, etc.Tue Feb 19 2013 7:08PM Report
If all classes could fill all roles simply by switching "Spec Tree" or somethign similar they would also lose their identity.
What makes a rogue a rogue is his ability to deal a lot of damage, typically with stealth or by sneaking. if you give the rogue the ability to heal or tank, the class loses its identity.
Regardless of what players say, or developers dont like regarding indiviuality. It takes more than a different skin or weapon in hand for a player to have a feeling of doing something others in a group can't. If you make all classes homogenous, amorphous tri-class lookalikes in all but animation. You remove their identity and I am unconvinced it will be successful.
TSW is a perfect example. It was a cool system, but it allowed players to play without a sense of a characters identity and I think when most players cant identitfy with a character it disrupts their immersion. I liked the system in theory, but playing the game I lose interest in my character and felt like I needed to plug the data into a spreadsheet to interpret it.
Just my random thoughts...Tue Feb 19 2013 11:47PM Report
The difference in Neverwinter and other Trinity games is that the combat is really action based. It doesn't feel like a traditional tank and spank.
So maybe the answer to the boring Trinity wasn't getting rid of of it but making it more fun.
Also Bill, you overlooked the problem that a lot of people just don't like playing a tank or healer period. Theres a lot of extra responsibility put on these roles. And to be honest they can be less fun than just blowing stuff up or hacking the crap out of mobs.Wed Feb 20 2013 2:18AM Report
I like he rants about guild wars 2 lack of trinity and then goes on to descibe a system where it works that really is gw2. Anyone who thinks that there is not a tank and a support in ever gw2 group has their head up the ***. The difference in gw2 is that when i play a warrior gaurdian or ele i am not locked into being a healer or a tank even while I am doing those things. An ele can bring addition heals in while raining meteors from the sky. A gaurdian can buff while smashing shit with a hammer.
I agree with alot of people above that say that the problem really is people not wanting to heal or tank. gw2 sort of solved this with the classes that can do alot of things. Yes I think they could have had a more dedicate healing class, they certainly had a tank and dps classes so that part is not true. I think rift had the best fix to this so far with souls. It really isnt a good game concept to have everyone play every class at once, but giving people multiple ways to play a class is inherint to good RPGS so why shouldn't it be to good MMORPGS.Thu Feb 21 2013 6:48AM Report
Honestly I have never liked it. Tank, heals, dps its such a pain in the ass because at different times it becomes a blame game. Tank doesnt tank enough, heals doesnt heal enough, dps is too slow etc. I prefer GW2s "sort of" system that places the weight on each individual player instead. There are so many games with the role based system that I dont see the point of this rant. One effing game doesnt have it, doesnt need it, and made one of its big draws based on these assumptions.. I get what Mr. Murphy is saying but your options are so vast with the system leave the tiny corner without it the hell alone.
The rant boils down to this. I have 100 games with the system one without it so the one without should be changed because I play it.
And to poke a hole in the "We should all have access at the same time to every role". Since this was an issue in every game where you get access to dual roles at the same time. Even with the variety fact is players love DPS in most games and find healing and tanking boring. The majortiy will still play dps. Even if they have full access to other roles the majority will play DPS.Fri Feb 22 2013 10:23AM Report
Lol you sounded like a tranquil from Dragon Age Lol
That aside, I get your idea of letting everyone do everything, having proposed that idea myself back when I played wow. I even recall coming up with ways that hunter could tank and heal (I enjoyed hunter the most). However, I find that the biggest problem with that solution would be balance, and I say this because I do not trust the players to be anything but content locusts in search of end game as well as also being incapable of ignoring FOTOM class builds. There is always going to be elitist min/max players that have the spread sheets to prove which class' "heal" role is superior to the others and the same for tank and dps. Combine this with the understanding that not all bosses can be "tank-&-spank" if you want to keep the game novel and you begin to reach a limitation to a jack-of-all-trades class system.
I believe that one step in the right direction could be to eliminate at least 1 part of the holy trinity: the tank. Hear me out, let me finish, just hang on, just chill and I'll explain. Tanking will still be necessary to progress but it doesn't have to be exclusively in the form of damage mitigation. Several MMOs have tried and failed to incorporate other forms of tanking such as HP tanks, Regeneration tanks, even DODGE tanking and all of these have failed absolutely miserably in the MMO scene though they have all respectively worked in other game settings. By incorporating both your idea of multi-role classes as well as several various methods of tanking you could then allow all classes in the game to choose between dps/tank and heal/tank roles. I say this because I agree that a more versatile class means more versatile groups with less of a need to require very specific classes to fill the LFD queue, but I do not agree that having every class have all methods of combat available will be as feasible as a dual class system would be.
Basically this would asking people where they most comfortably place themselves on a scale between Rend and Mend. Should someone choose dead center then in that case they could potentially find a way to dps/heal/tank but not be as effective at either damage or restoration as one who would devote more torwards one end or the spectrum over the other.
With this form of system you could be nearly pure dps/tank with perhaps 1 back up heal and/or debuff cure just to use on the fly while concentrating mostly on your preferred combat role. But by allowing every class to tank and have the tank style vary by class from mitigation to damage absorption to high health and regeneration to dodge and parry tanking options AND making them all work and be effective regardless of the scenario (to prevent the need to wait for the RIGHT class to offer up their services) we could still maintain demarcation lines between players who dedicate more of their energy to DPS or Heals while easily replacing the needs for that third wheel of the tank that is easily the most abused role with the least amount of innovation.
This system would still have a place for that big shield and massive pauldrons, a place for the nimble leather clad assassin, a place for the glass cannon, even a place for that man who just can't own enough healing pants. But it would remain your choice to decide if you are more in touch with your desire to Rend or your duty to Mend with varying degrees inbetween all of which are useful but only the most dedicated to one side of the coin or the other will reach maximum potential in that direction. You, Bill Murphy, could even do all three if you wanted but that would come with the price of not being the best healer or dps, however you would still remain as competant a tank as all others.Sat Feb 23 2013 1:55PM Report
This video pretty much describes both Rift and Guild Wars 2. You are free to play any roll you should and in a dungeon in both games you will need to switch between rolls.
It's why i'm disappointed with nwn. In dnd, therea re no rolls. The healer's sometime stand up and fight and sometimes deal the most damage, the guy with the heavy army may be back on cure potion and wand of light wounds duty. Combat is fluid.
The author misses the main problem with the trinity and that is lack of options. If you can't quickly switch between rolls you're stuck doing the same thing for the 2 hours of a dungeon.Wed Mar 20 2013 11:07PM Report


text: GALLERIES Woody Allen Back to Top ▲ Woody Allen Woody Allen Woody Allen Picture 11 AskMen Editors Share on Facebook Share on Twitter 0 Shares Woody Allen is known for portraying a nervous, nebbishy New Yorker in his many movies, and for being one in real life. No matter what you think of him -- the whole 35-year age difference between Woody and his wife Soon-Yi is a little hard to stomach -- he has given us some of the greatest American films of our time: Sleeper, Annie Hall, Manhattan, Hannah and Her Sisters, Crimes and Misdemeanors,… Continue reading Woody Allen's profile. Next Page gallery Comments Show Comments More Like This Actor Which Young Starlet Is His Latest Muse? Read More Celeb Galleries Evan Rachel Wood Read More Actor The Funniest Man On TV? Read More Actress The Newly Single Star Read More Celeb Galleries Penelope Cruz Read More Celeb Galleries Paz Vega Read More Promoted Around the Web Special Features Special Feature Over 100 Ways To Make This The Most Jaw-Dropping Year Of Your Life Read More Special Feature 100 Ways To Look Better Than You Do Now. Smooth Up, Man. Read More Special Feature From Dating To Fitness, Over 75 Ways Men Are Winning 2015 Read More ad

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This module focuses on a thorough reading of Boccaccio¿s Decameron. References to Boccaccio's parodistic use of Dantean and Petrarchian values, will shed light to the new cultural values of the modern ¿world of merchants¿. Along with the awareness of the historical and cultural context, the course aims to provide the critical tools necessary to understand the complexity of a literary text.
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Tour Edge Exotics EX-3 Irons Sets
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Is Vick Playing?
Discuss your favorite team: the Atlanta Falcons. As well as all NFL and pro football-related topics, including fantasy football.
Moderators: Capologist, dirtybirdnw, thescout
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- nefan
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Is Vick Playing?
Has anyone heard? I just heard on ESPN that he is unlikely to play but for some reason I really doubt that.
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- dirtybirdnw
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Vick is out because he won't wear a knee brace at least according to ESPN. He could bite the bullet and play with a brace. He should at least give it a try it's better then just saying no. He's played with worse injuries then this (seperated shoulders and thumb). For the first time ever I'm questioning Vick.
Fear the BEARD!
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the separated shoulder and thumb were probably more painful, but his knees are his bread and butter. if he gets hurt and it's above the waist, i feel relieved because when those knees and ankles start breaking down its usually the beginning of the end, either slowly or quickly. so i can't blame him. i think that's why he can play with a tweaked hamstring. as long as it's not the knees or ankles he'd probably go. he should get them insured by sotherby's.
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Top areas in Vancouver (BC)
Vancouver (BC)
As slick and modern as it is nostalgic, Vancouver is one of Canada's most recent triumphs. It's the largest city in the nation's west, and has gracefully transcended its sawmill origins to become a vibrant cultural hotspot.
An old-world British ambiance clings to South Granville, despite the fact that it slumped into industrialism for a while. The government injected Granville Island with some much-needed capital a few years ago, and the entire district has blossomed into a quaint commercial area rife with English pubs, craft boutiques, open-air markets and some of the best hotels in Vancouver.
Most of the accommodation in Vancouver is located in the greater downtown district. Guests based in this area enjoy easy access to Vancouver's hippest clubs, cafés and lounges in easy walking distance of each other. Vancouver may be small by big-city standards, but it still has plenty to offer on the cosmopolitan front. From cultural institutes like the Museum of Anthropology to Chinatown and the sublime classical Chinese gardens. Vancouver also has a fantastic shopping scene that includes large malls and exotic, ethnic marketplaces.
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For more information on hotels and landmarks in the different areas of Vancouver, click on the interactive Vancouver map on the left-hand side of the page.


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Movies at the Museum
Classic Disney Films
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Miss the old classic Disney films? Want your kids to see them?
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We were on the bottom end for the size of a company that can move to an ERP system. We were also at the top end in size of a company that can use QuickBooks. xTuple is focused on their clients' needs. The website, community, and training classes are a big help.
xSG - Additional Logos
Above is the Graphic Image referenced in Exhibit B ("Attribution") of
xTuple's Common Public Attribution License (CPAL).
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The use of the "x" as shown in the xTuple "shine" logo is reserved for xTuple corporate use only — for example, in social media, xTuple promotional products and in marketing materials (which may be co-branded with xTuple Partners). For quality purposes, xTuple reserves the right to approve any vendors using the xTuple logo.
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The xTuple logo accompanied by the registered trademark tagline - Grow Your World® - communicates the essence of our brand identity. Tagline may be used with or without the xTuple logo. The tagline should always be accompanied by the registered trademark symbol, whether accompanied by the xTuple logo or not. We also use the tag "World's #1 Open Source ERP" to describe who we are.
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Color is key in keeping the company style identity consistent. The Blue and Orange serve as anchor points. The primary and secondary color palette is inspired by the xTuple "shine" logo. The gradient in the signature allows for many shades of the colors listed. While the primary color palette is the basis for print and web usage, other shades of the primary color palette have been used based on specific needs. Other color variations based on the primary color palette are to be created by and/or approved by xTuple Marketing.
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The xTuple "shine" logo is the face of our brand. Our logo is the key element of our brand identity and consistent use of the logo is essential to maintaining our identity and gaining instant recognition across all marketing channels and media.
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text: The Minutemen could be heard before they were seen. First came the bullhorns barking "This is America, not Mexico" and "No work today. The Minutemen have arrived." Then the group of two dozen men and women, holding U.S. flags and cameras in their hands, turned the corner and started bearing down on Hispanic workers waiting for jobs outside the Macehualli day-labor center in northern Phoenix, Ariz. Sensing trouble, some took refuge behind the gates of the center, and others melted away down side streets. As the laborers fled, the protesters tried to take pictures of their faces. "This is our country!" shouted a Minuteman. "We are under invasion."


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The following is an archive of a post made to our
'vox mailing list'
by one of its subscribers.
Small block Chevy and I'll give you a CD-RW drive :)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Werve" <email@example.com>
To: <email@example.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 14:56
Subject: Re: [vox] [ot] V8 sextuplets seek short term relationship with
> Gabriel Rosa wrote:
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > anyone like V8? I have a 6-pack that ain't going anywhere (specially not
> > stomach). Will trade for 3-4 blank cd-r's or a 4 pack of rechargeable
AAA's :)
> >
> > -Gabe
> Only if it's a 351 or bigger (I'll throw in an extra CD-R if it's a
> 427).
> Oh, and it has to come with valves, rods, crank, pistons, and the whole
> shebang. None of this "here, have a block" crap. *grin*
> --
> Don Werve <firstname.lastname@example.com>
> Jr. Unix System Administrator
> "Fear is the mind-killer." (Frank Herbert)
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A software update for the Safe HTML filtering feature is available to enable you to use the POST method in HTML forms in Outlook Web Access for Exchange Server 2003
Article ID: 912939 - View products that this article applies to.
On This Page
This article describes a software update that is available for the Safe HTML filtering feature in Microsoft Exchange Server 2003. This update enables you to use the POST method in HTML forms when you use Microsoft Outlook Web Access in Exchange Server 2003.
The Safe HTML filtering feature in Exchange Server 2003 helps make e-mail messaging safer. When you use Microsoft Outlook Web Access in Exchange Server 2003, the Safe HTML filtering feature helps protect you from malicious scripts that can be included in HTML-formatted e-mail messages or attachments. The following Microsoft Knowledge Base article describes how to work around this filtering feature when you must share files.
899394In Outlook Web Access, you may want to deploy e-mail solutions in which you must include code in e-mail messages. To deploy these e-mail solutions within the constraints imposed by the Safe HTML filtering feature, install the software update that is described in this article. This software update updates the Safe HTML filtering feature so that you can use the POST method in HTML forms.
(http://support.microsoft.com/kb/899394/ )How to share files that are removed by the "Safe HTML" filtering feature in Outlook Web Access for Exchange Server 2003
After you install this software update, you must format the URL in the ACTION parameter as follows:
https://<server FQDN>/formpostdir/safeformpost.aspxThe directory and aspx page must be named as it is here. When the URL is restricted to this format, there is less risk of malicious use of the POST method by unknown external sources.
Download informationThe following file is available for download from the Microsoft Download Center:
Download the Exchange2003-KB912939-x86-ENU.exe package now.
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For more information about how to download Microsoft support files, click the following article number to view the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
119591Microsoft scanned this file for viruses. Microsoft used the most current virus-detection software that was available on the date that the file was posted. The file is stored on security-enhanced servers that help prevent any unauthorized changes to the file.
(http://support.microsoft.com/kb/119591/ )How to obtain Microsoft support files from online services
PrerequisitesYou must install Microsoft Exchange Server 2003 Service Pack 2 (SP2) before you install the update.
For more information, click the following article number to view the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
(http://support.microsoft.com/kb/836993/ )How to obtain the latest service packs for Exchange Server 2003
Restart requirementYou do not have to restart the computer after you apply this update. However, the Microsoft Exchange Information Store service and all dependent services will be restarted.
File informationThe global version of this update has the file attributes (or later file attributes) that are listed in the following table. The dates and times for these files are listed in Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). When you view the file information, it is converted to local time. To find the difference between UTC and local time, use the Time Zone tab in the Date and Time item in Control Panel.
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For more information about the terminology that Microsoft uses for software that is corrected after it is released, click the following article number to view the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
824684For more information about the naming schema for Exchange software updates, click the following article number to view the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
(http://support.microsoft.com/kb/824684/ )Description of the standard terminology that is used to describe Microsoft software updates
(http://support.microsoft.com/kb/817903/ )New naming schema for Exchange Server software update packages
Article ID: 912939 - Last Review: September 10, 2011 - Revision: 3.0