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Sep 13 2013
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I figured the best thing to make a "world" for would be one of mine.
This world will be about random facts and little stuffs about my world Karna, those of you who read my comics might know a bit about it. Karna is a fantasy world that started festering in my mind since i was little.
Welcome to my world, I hope you enjoy your stay!

subset: commoncrawl


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Even though I'm a pilot, I still love loading up the car and hitting the highway for a far-off vacation destination. Some of my most relaxing moments have been behind the wheel, with Woody Guthrie's "ribbon of highway" stretched out ahead of the hood ornament.
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- Roi Shpaner
- Tel Aviv
- Israel
This conversation is closed.
A world without religion, how will it really look?
The voices against religious belief are growing stronger in recent years as is to be expected in this age of information, but would there really be an idyllic world waiting in the end of this war?
Would the people susceptible to the religious doctrines really abandon illogical thinking, or will we see the various "New Age" movements get stronger with new pseudo scientific lies that might seem like an easier path to take than the proof demanding science, as we see today from many secular people around the world?
How far are we from completely embracing knowledge and research? How do you envision such a world?
Roi Shpaner
Mar 9 2011: It's amusing to see so many pro religious opinions here, I can only hope even more religious people discover TED, and open up their mind to modern knowledge and ideas. I'm sure the harmless arguments they make around here are worth the possibility of growing out of the mental cage they we're brought up in. All it takes is some critical thinking.
- +6
There were some very good comments made here and I enjoyed reading them all. As we near the closing time of this debate, I will give you my own vision of a world without religion.
I see a world extremely different from today (and still far away if to be honest), a world without borders, that values knowledge and information more than anything. A world not without violence, not without crime, but at much much lower rates than today. A world much more productive and active as we waste less time and rely solely on ourselves as a human race. A world more open to disagreements and debates, treating all people as equals.
A world where all human knowledge is free and available to every single person. And it starts with TED.Feb 17 2011: Two things come to mind from reading the comments so far. My thoughts on both; what do you think?
1) Is there a fundamental assumption being made by some of us that a world with science and logic alone cannot still have a sense of wonder, excitement, fullness and feeling of understanding? Do you need religion to live a full life? Is science the only thing left behind without religion? Are we giving religion too much credit?
I believe I personally will live a fuller life because my mind will be busy for as long as I live, marvelling and understanding the absolutely astounding nature of the world - and that's only possible because I am open to questioning everything, not relying on core beliefs. In fact, I think it is possible to appreciate things MORE given an understanding of how unlikely our being here is and how amazing the truth behind how everything else came to be is.
2) It's very interesting to note the differences in our definitions of 'religion'.
To me, it necessitates a 'belief' or 'faith' in a 'god' and various core ideas about how to rationalise our lives. (I note that the comments about reconciling or merging science and religion take a different view of religion as a set of values or morals.) If the ideas can stand up to scientific proof or logic, then they will no longer need faith to exist - they will become a logical truth. If the ideas cannot stand up to scientific proof or logic (and I believe they cannot), doesn't this mean that religion and science will always be irreconcilable?
Dan England
Feb 17 2011: I don't think Religion has the same purpose as it did 200+ years ago. Some of the early roles of religion were the same as science. Eventually they took different approaches and in my opinion the scientific method was deemed superior in describing our world. Science to me will last longer than any one Religion. At one point people believed that the fiery thing moving across the sky was a God, the tides were the workings of Gods, I could go on. I really don't understand how this is sustainable in the long term. Eventually people will understand that Religion really was created by ancient people that had a best guess at what is going on around them. Granted most Religions have a good message but people without Religion have morals too. My real concern in the future is that scientific theories will become the new religions. Dogmatic, unquestioning beliefs that one particular theory is better than another for no other reason than who associates themselves with each particular theory.
- +6
Peter Law
Feb 20 2011: Dan
- +1
"My real concern in the future is that scientific theories will become the new religions."
Isn't Mr Dawkin's disdain for anyone; scientist or not; who doesn't accept his worldview, a sure sign that the process is well underway. :-)
Feb 20 2011: I think you are right. While I do not believe in god in the same way as others might I also do not condemn them for their beliefs. It's little like the education system in that I am afraid that people will discover that the arts and creativity are equally as important as academic learning and then they try to quantify the arts by setting up a set of testing goals, this leads to that option being the new system which does not work either. Possible a world without religion really means a world without judgment.
Feb 21 2011: @Lee Wilkinson: You are mistaken. As far as I know Richard Dawkins does not condemn people for their beliefs. He attacks people when they try and impose their belief system on others which is a direct violation of the principle of freedom of religion. For example, one of his key issues is the way that people impose religion on children that are not old enough to make their own minds up. I know of a good deal of his work as a 'militant atheist' and know of no example where your claim can be justified. As a challenge: prove me wrong.Mar 12 2011: He made fun of Ken Hovand by calling him "that banana man." Though I think everyone does that, or at least should if they understood the story.Feb 20 2011: @Dan England: Religion has the same purpose as it ever did. The effect that it has on society is different. It never had the same purpose as science - science's goal is to understand the nature of things whereas religion dictates it. Nobody deemed science to be superior, it simply does the job it was designed to do - no more, no less. In contrast, religion is bankrupt as a source for knowledge or fact.
Science has all the checks and balances in place in the process so that scientific theory does not become dogma. Even something so well accepted and apparent as Newton's laws were unseated by Einstein. Scientists live to overturn other scientists' work. When they are not creating one thing, they are trying to destroy another.
@Peter Law: Like Richard Dawkins or not, I don't think you are justified in saying he shows disdain for all that don't accept his worldview. Dawkins' conversation with the Bishop of Oxford is a good example - have you a counter example?
Mind S
Feb 22 2011: Well done Keith. Many people seem to be ignorant or misinformed about how science works, its rigorous methodology and objectivity...
- 0
Mar 11 2011: while, most unfortunately, others are ignorant of their ignorance.
kris ho
Mar 14 2011: perhaps Einstein may have unseated Newtons law... but surely that proves a valuable point to our argument, that altough one idea might have sounded exactly right at the time, that if somthing better comes along later on, and is found to be correct, that we now accept that as holding more rellavance. surely things such as the bible and quran may have been valuble tools of explanation, good ways of teaching morals and a kind of cushion to lifes nasty blows- especially in times where life expectancy was low, plague and famine commonplace. But we have moved on at least 1000 years since then- do all the old ideas still sit, and do we still really NEED them, as opposed to WANT them. And as brillaiant as Dawkins may be, and as well versed as Sam Harris may be in argument, unfortunately somtimes they do rub people up the wrong way, and give a rather millitant tone to athiesm. But thats still no real reason to throw the baby 9of their arguments) out with the bath water.Mar 14 2011: I do not belong to any organized religion. I do not consider myself a "NewAge" person. But I do not see science and religion as opposites.The word Science comes from the Latin word scientia "knowledge". Religion, according to Cicero, derived from relegare "go through again, read again," from re- "again" + legere "read". However, popular etymology among the later ancients (and many modern writers) connects it with religare "to bind fast", via notion of "place an obligation on," or "bond between humans and gods." Another possible origin is religiens "careful," opposite of negligens.I think the role of religion is to provide meaning and depth to science. There can never be pure facts. I just do not trust a person who claims to be objective. Every human being is an interpreter of whatever facts he or she is presented with. Knowledge is the logical way we have to organize those facts. It gives us tools to talk about facts.Religion is what gives those facts meaning, whether we believe in one god, many gods or no god.Mar 7 2011: There are many ideals/beliefs that are both positive and beneficial to human growth.
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transhumanism, humanisn, budhism, shamanism, rationalism, skepticism the list goes on.
I believe an end to religion would be the result of teaching everyone all the religion past and present. That way the comparison will show that humans throughout history have tried to make morals a law rather then the law to understand morals.
Am I thinking too far ahead in time? Or is religion inedible to the human condition? Or are the religious foundations installed today are too in deep into cultures/societies of the world to be ended?
A world without religion would be perfect.
Comment deleted
Mar 11 2011: Im not sure we wouldnt end up doing what we have done in past times and consequently dead civilizations.That is worshiping our science, our culture, our beauty or the arts...
Comment deleted
Mar 12 2011: Because we have done it before, and all those civilizations fell.
Comment deleted
Mar 13 2011: donlehmanjr.com/China/china%20chapters/china%20book3/china55.htm
Pride, herald to all sin, is at the root of the matter.
Enough is enough when you can no longer perceive how your overindulgence imposes unfair (life threatening) restraints on others.
There is no knowledge or discovery defined by our Science that was not waiting to be unveiled.
We fool ourselves into thinking that any reaction we have attempted to 'catalyze'. Comes from and is owned by us alone, willfully ignorant that our very action makes us part of the experiment or energetic system that was set in motion millennia before our existence.
The Arts and our Culture are fickle things as exemplified by the fact that even those man made Wonders of the World have become little more than tourist attractions. Their true stories and the wisdom behind the lessons lost but to a few.
Comment deleted
Mar 13 2011: We are both arguing a belief in something. Religion can be defined most simply as a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Atheism I think fits these criteria.
You asked me for an example and I gave you two.
If you read through the link I sent you, you will see that the precipitating factor for the fall of most of Chinas Empires was the same: Greed the same thing (not religion) which led to the downfall of the Roman Empire.
Comment deleted
Mar 13 2011: Okay lets dance a little longer. I never said that because I believe in God there is no greed in me.
I am not interested in convincing you of something you already, intrinsically know. I will however remind you since you seem to have forgotten and you cannot learn from what you choose to forget: You are part of and therefor accountable to something far greater than yourself.
A world without what you call religion means erasing those most important histories which seeded all civilizations with ideas like the Golden Rule (as far as I know these are not empirical formulae). It is a world where we would feel even more justified to never extend ourselves beyond our selfish desires. Where would you be today if your ancestors cared more about art or culture than rearing their offspring to be good and responsible individuals, qualities I dare say you will never find expounded in any history of science.
To date, the most advanced civilizations known to have existed are still trying to justify the idea that it makes sense for us to sh@# where we sleep. So we go on raping the bowels of our mother, pillaging her irreplaceable beauty and annihilating what biodiversity is left on our planet. This has nothing to do with any religion I conform to. How about you?
I say again: enough is enough when you can no longer perceive how your overindulgence imposes unfair (life threatening) restraints on others.
Feel free to try and prove me wrong
Comment deleted
Mar 13 2011: Not better just more accountable and therefore able to grow where it matters most.
Those individuals who are committing the atrocities to which you refer are, surprise, misguided.
How much more and for what reasons are those proud and Godless doing the same?
Comment deleted
Mar 13 2011: Is the pot calling the kettle, black? Must be nice. My beliefs do not allow for such luxury. Please stop trying to twist this discussion into... whatever it is your trying to turn it into.
It is not my concern what you choose to believe. You have nothing to fear.
My question to you is simple. Look around the world and examine the history of the last 100 yrs then tell me what those Godless and proud have done to improve anything for anyone in need. Without the guidance of some virtue based in some religion.
Comment deleted
Mar 13 2011: Thats convenient, no, unfortunate. I don't think you were ever in this discussion because you answered none of my questions and made all kinds of peculiar judgements about me. Goodbye.
kris ho
Mar 14 2011: maybe plenty of people who are 'godless and proud' did stuff to help with humanity. perhaps they just did it and left the banners and whistles at home. Good things are done by good people every day, just because its nice to be nice :)
- +2
Comment deleted
Mar 14 2011: r/t dead civilizations. I made no such presumption, read again.
The examples I gave you showed exactly my point that the most predominate factor in the disintegration of many past Empires or civilizations is pride and the resulting greed (and other problems) that it spawns, not religion.
I never said that religion is the 'only way to guard against greed' I did however say that said belief systems are the source of many of those wisdoms and tenants that hold up the best of what our current civilizations have to offer.
Finally I never 'contended' that anyone "did nothing to benefit societies" and made no statement based in prejudice. I simply asked for examples so that you might prove your position. Are you not in fact Proud to be Godless?
You have made many peculiar (dangerous) defamatory accusations and judgements about my character and now attempt to deflect my attention away from your slights. Weak, you have shown me your stripes.
I have answered Rio's question adequately in my opinion.
Go in peace I am not here to harass or be harassed by anyone.
Peter Law
Mar 11 2011: A world without religion ? That would only work if Atheism wasn't a religion. However we can look at Russia for the 50yrs or so before the wall came down.
- +2
Mar 11 2011: "If Atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby."
Someone on YouTube once said that... I think on a Richard Dawkins video. I don't know if that's the original author, but the thought sure makes sence.
Mar 11 2011: A fine point- I appreciated the irony of Dawkins' call for militant atheism- but John Lennox had a valuable point in his debate with Richard Dawkins, that many communist countries have committed atrocities in the name of atheism*.
It's ridiculous to say that not believing in God or a higher power must mean you believe in something- but Richard Dawkins has advanced a meme that I do consider Ill-guided; the idea that faith in-of itself is obsolete, that science and logic can make faith redundant.
*EDIT: in response to Vasil, who was thrown off by this point, I agree it was not a point that was sound or wholly thought out very well on my part and I feel the need to apologize for it.
Mar 11 2011: As someone from a former communist country, believing I know my own history well enough, I must respectfully ask "Whaaaa....?!?!".
Even when a communist leader has been atheist, they haven't commited atrocities IN THE NAME of atheism. They commited atrocities because they were f**kheads. You can be a f**khead regardless of faith. The catholic church has been the one to do atrocities in the name of christianity. Also, Bin Laden has been the one comitting atrocities in the name of (radical) Islam. An atheist comitting atrocities is never comitting atrocities IN THE NAME of atheism.
To comitt atrocities in the name of atheism would mean for said person to kill or torture people of ALL religions because they believe in gods. Can you name ONE such case?
The only "atrocity from a communist leader" case I do know from my country is where all people living here in Bulgaria were once forced to have Bulgarian names. Bulgaria, being a christian country has many names rooted in christianity. Many turkish immigrants, being muslim, refused to change their names. Some were killed on an instant, others rebelled and were eventually shot (I believe the current events in Lybia are a close analogy), and third were trialed and executed. Refusal equaled death either way.
Our former leader, as far as I know, was not atheist, but even if he was, that name enforcement was not done in the name of atheism. It was done in the name of nationalism. Considering the fact the nation is christian, and the names are christian based, you could say it was indirectly in the name of christianity.
Besides, in the last two centuries at least, politics and religion have not intermixed, at least in my country, though AFAIK, that's also true for other former communist countries. I don't recall a politician having to proclaim he's a christian to win over voters, despite the fact we DO have a muslim party, as well as party that has the reputation of being fascist (though they aren't IMHO).Mar 13 2011: r/t "It's ridiculous to say that not believing in God or a higher power must mean you believe in something" Disagree.
If you don't believe in something then nothing you say means anything. Would you trust someone who refused to show his position on something that matters to you?
Not having an opinion on the matter should also excuse him/her from the right to any vote on the matter.
"Richard Dawkins has advanced a meme that I do consider Ill-guided; the idea that faith in-of itself is obsolete, that science and logic can make faith redundant." Agree.
Redundance is relevant;
"I said 'The plural of anecdote is data' some time in the 1969-70 academic year while teaching a graduate seminar at Stanford. The occasion was a student's dismissal of a simple factual statement--by another student or me--as a mere anecdote. The quotation was my rejoinder."
The original quote by Raymond Wolfinger.
'Natural selection itself, when you think about it, is a narrowing down from a wide initial field of possible alternatives, to the narrower field of the alternatives actually chosen. Random genetic error (mutation), sexual recombination and migratory mixing, all provide a wide field of genetic variation: the available alternatives [redundancy]...the information fed into present-day genomes from past generations is helpful information. Information from the ancestral past can be seen as a manual for surviving in the present: a family bible of ancestral "advice" on how to survive today..."
Richard Dawkins
Peter Law
Mar 12 2011: Hi Vasil
- +2
"If Atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby."
Non-collectors do not preach on the evils of stamp collecting. Who ever heard of "Militant Non-Stamp collecting".
Atheists want to STAMP (sorry) out religion.
Mar 12 2011: That's probably because there are no evils in stamp collecting. I have yet to see someone commiting atrocities in the name of their hobby.
If there were evils in stamp collecting, I think non-collectors would make collectors aware (not preach; just make them aware, and prompt them to search for further evidence themselves) of the evils of stamp collecting.
kris ho
Mar 9 2011: I could only hope that a world without religion would be one in which people talk and question each other more freely, and see shades of grey rather then black and white- with out a god on your side to 'say so' people would have to look deeper at the reasons that they do- or don't do things... traditions that are often associated with religion (F.G.M and hatred against homosexuals spring to mind) would perhaps be easier to look at more objectivly with out the god and scripture part of the argument.
- +2
Hopefully it would also be a kind of common link between different cultures- I mean, no one (witha decent 'moral compass') goes out with the idea to rape pillage and destroy surely??!! with out god(s) decency will be seen for what it is- a common human trait rather then a religiously shaped one.
It would also be about taking responsibility for your own life- It is what you shape it- or how you deal with what happens to you, rather then because the 'big fella' deems it so, and thinking about how our choices affect what we really have- the here and now, rather then relying on a cushy afterlife may make us feel different about what we eat, how we act, and what we really value.
as for how far are we away from this.... it's maybe within our reach, but definately within our sights.Mar 8 2011: If some people are not able to understand true spirit of religion or if some people have misused religion over the years, either because of their ignorance or because they want to use it for making political or personal capital does not mean that religions are bad. We should remember that there are bad people, belonging to different religions, to no religion or among atheist. It is because there have been more good people, many of them inspired by the moral force of religion that our civilization has survived.. All this should make us think that abolishing religion, is not the right answer, and would do no good.Besides many people are passionate about their faith in God, even though they might not follow other rituals. Instead, people should rethink, to see and practice religion with new realities. The paradgim of an 'exclusive true religion and representing the only truth, is not tenable in a globalised interdepented and multireligious world. Tolerance, understanding and respect should be the hall mark of all religions if they have to survive .
Gabriel .C
Feb 20 2011: In short, it will look mostly harmless.
- +2
Religiosity and education (or lack thereof) are inextricably linked and inversely proportional. As the world becomes more educated, it will become less religious. Now, the set of parameters that allow a nation to offer adequate schooling to it`s citizens are essentially the same as those that allow a nation to be economically prosperous. Thus, a non-religious world (NOTE: Not "no religion", but rather "not religious", for only the latter is feasible) is basically a developed world.
Obviously, a developed world and the tenth sphere of heaven are very much different. Violence, which is rooted in our very nature, will persist. What will go away however, will be the flimsy yet powerful excuses for war that religion offers in almost equal amounts as guilt and fear. And that, I think you`ll agree, is most definitely better than what we have now.
Max Karpylev
Feb 15 2011: There is always a room for religion until they really come up with theory of everything. That day will be a really bad day for Vatican.
- +2
Feb 17 2011: There cannot be a theory of everything as there will always be unanswerable questions; there will always be uncertainty. And in that uncertainty there will always be a place for faith.
Feb 17 2011: Essentially... religion loves the gaps (Dawkins)Mar 13 2011: Religion can be defined most simply as a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Atheism I think fits these criteria.
The root of the matter is Pride.
Anything science discovered was already there waiting to be unveiled. Any process that we attempt to 'catalyze', we claim foolish credit for, willfully ignorant to the fact that our very action makes us part of the experiment and therefore part of an energetic process put in motion before we existed.
Culture and The Arts are for the most part fickle concepts, as even the man made Wonders of the World have become, over time, little more than tourist attractions. The stories surrounding their genesis lost to the general population. And with that the lessons.
Mind S
Mar 13 2011: Contemplative flights of mind, the usage of shadowy, elusive and subjective statements that contain hopelessly ill-defined terms coupled with redundancy and preaching/rhetorical tone is what characterises the mystic mind, which contributes negligibly to the acquisition of real knowledge and the ensuing progress of humanity.
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How many times it has been stressed that in contrary to religious belief systems, atheism/non-believing has no specific set of beliefs that are final and sacred. The atheistic view concerning the universe changes and evolves with the advancement of science and rational knowledge. Hence, atheism doesn't fit the definition of religion.
Mar 13 2011: If you don't believe in something then nothing you say means anything. Would you trust someone who refused to show (affirm) his position on something that matters to you?
Not having an opinion on the matter should also excuse him/her from the right to any vote on the matter.
To remain relevant all ideas must be open to change, on that we stand in agreement. This is what I hope to expand on through constructive and collaborative criticism of all issues. So can we stop the passive aggressive B.S. and at least try to find any other relevant concurrence of opinions? Or should I wait untill your religion evolves to to point where it accepts its limitations in this infinite system.Mar 12 2011: Religion is the sculpting of aspects of reality you cannot see using the human experience. Prophets, books, eyewitness accounts of miracles, these are fundamentally human centered occurrences. The goal of science is to remove the human perspective from the equation, or more simply, to make it so no matter who you are, where you were born, what you believe in, you too can add vinegar and baking soda and watch the reaction.Mar 2 2011: Thank you all for your insight. You have probably heard the riddle 'if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?' I believe this to be indicative of our current Human condition.
We have become so enraptured by our splendor as to believe with asinine stubbornness that there is no reality outside our existence or experience.
One reason for this, I believe, is that at an animal level we have both willingly and through desperate necessity created civilizations which focus mightily on what our senses help us identify as tangible and how such matter can be turned to satisfying (or in some cases saturating) our physiologic needs.
The ultimate and most relentless (read Omnipotent) goal of this behavior, which is shared by all life forms, is an ecstatic immortality.
This makes sense, however, I truly don't get how most of us can think that because we are unable perceive something - with our scientifically demonstatably fallible and comparatively feeble senses - it does not exist.
This very thought process is pathologically counterintuitive!
Pride comes before the fall.
How can we hope to evolve (read not become extinct) if we refuse to embrace much less assimilate the infinite outside ourselves?!
Having said that, I must admitted I am wary of approaching such phenomena with our immature, yet curiously classical, modes-operandi (usually akin to rape and pillage for it is better to ask forgiveness than permission)!
Brothers and Sisters wake up and however you may, deal with it.
I propose that a more suitable definition for the term supernatural denote a phenomena purely outside the scope of normal human perception, therefor outside the scope of current scientific means to measure or catalogue within our understanding of those laws applying to our nature.
Nuf said.
A Latif
Feb 22 2011: "A world without religion, how will it really look?"
- +1
I am aware that answering such genre of questions invokes a tendency to project our current concepts, knowledge, psychology, impulses, and emotions on remotely placed future situation.
The meaning and nature of things, hence our knowledge, evolve and develop over time. World-views and outlooks change as time passes by (and this becomes more evident on larger time scales). Remote future humans will have higher intellectuality (assuming we are not going to destroy ourselves), different emotional setting, different psychological contexts, different societal structures and different priorities and concerns (Even here I use some terms that may lose their usual meaning and significance in the remote future). People of the future will look to present-day concepts of life and knowledge as outdated, discarded and obsolete similar to how we now evaluate those of ancient human societies.
Feb 22 2011: @A Latif: Without religion, our worldview would be devoid of "The meaning ... of things". Things would simply be there because they are there. If I throw a dice then, if it comes up 5 then it just did that because of probability. It wouldn't 'mean' anything because it came up 5. Of course because we are naturally superstitious then we tend to think otherwise.
I think the answer to the question is relatively simple.
If there were no religions then we would be obliged to shoulder the responsibility regarding moral and ethical problems. We would get on with fixing them.
If it were known that there is no afterlife then we would value the one that we are living now much more. Both our own lives and those of others.
If there were no religions then a great number people that currently help others because they think 'it's a godly thing to do' would do the same thing with redoubled effort because they would know it was the right thing to do. And they would rightly be rewarded for doing so.
Feb 22 2011: "If it were known that there is no afterlife then we would value the one that we are living now much more. Both our own lives and those of others."
While I'm an atheist myself and fully agree with you on all other points, I'm not entirely certain that people who don't belive in an afterline would necesarily value life more, especially those who've previously lived with religion in mind. Imagine - you live your life thinking "I'll be good now because there's [insert religion promise for reward] waiting for me after death, and I won't get it if I'm not good.", and suddenly, when you realize this is not true you're going "But... why should I be good now? Why should I live? My life has no purpose! I want to die!".
I have the answers to these questions for myself, but I'm not entirely sure if those answers are universal in nature.
For me, we live... because we live... because we were born. "Deal with it!". And even if there's no afterlife, I think we should be good because... well... the golden rule basically implies it... so that we can all enjoy life. If there's no afterlife, then there's no need for a reward after death. But if there was life after death and [insert religion promise for reward], then so be it. And if we're being reborn, all the better - one more round of being good in order to enjoy life along with everyone else.
I guess this explanation is also one reason why developing countries life Pakistan and Afghanistan are usually breeders for extremists. "enjoy life" doesn't sit well in those environments. People in other places know that their life can always be better or at least at its "good" level, but in those places, the possibility is usually out of sight, and therefore out of mind.
Feb 22 2011: @Vasil Rangelov: I'm not sure how well sticks and carrots work over the long term - i.e. a whole life. My guess is they don't change very much. Why do some catholic priests misbehave themselves if they had the though of burning in hell in the back of their mind.
With regards to purpose. Religious people may consider that they have a purpose in life but they don't know what it is. I would find that even more frustrating. And if I were to think by life was predestined - what would be the point in struggling?
While I think my reasoning is right, I'm not sure that I value my life any more than a couple of good friends of mine who are christian. So my suspicion is that you're right.
Maybe one would live a life more purposefully?
A Latif
Feb 23 2011: Dear Keith,
- +1
While the core of your comment represents misunderstanding for the word "meaning" in my statement «The meaning and nature of things", you have actually expressed, nicely, my own thoughts! The word "meaning" that I used has a physical context and not a theological or metaphysical context. For instance, ancient people held different meaning for physical phenomena in comparison to the modern meaning (e. g. the "sun" meant a God, Apollo while for us it means just a star, a huge natural nuclear reactor). I have already made many comments (in the original thread/forum "Militant Atheism") criticising the expressions "meaning" or "purpose" as applied to the natural world by theologians and in metaphysical philosophy and I expressed my view that these are anthropogenic terms that reflect our own personal, human emotions/feelings and have no bearing on the impersonal physical cosmos in which we live. Regards.
Feb 23 2011: @A Latif: OK. That makes sense.Feb 21 2011: See Movie: "The invention of lying"
Steve Frazee
Feb 18 2011: In my view, religion is a subset of spirituality where spirituality is the wonder and mystery of the human experience. Spirituality is our acknowledgment that transcendent causalities may impact our lives.
- +1
The domain of science is rationality that can be measured or predicted. Rationality is attached to the current evolutionary perceptions of the human mind. That which falls outside the human ability to perceive, or conceive, is transcendent by definition. I would argue there is a big difference between irrational and trans-rational spirituality.
The current world of static, dogmatic, mythical religions may give way evolving systems of wonder and respect for all that is transcendent. I hope so. Spirituality at it's best is not illogical, magical or mythical, but it is optimistic that whatever exists beyond the human mind's abilities is slightly is supportive of our collective evolution.
I do not expect that humanity will ever let go of that optimism. I can't imagine a world without spirituality in the form of wonder and awe for that which is unknown or unknowable.
Goh Lip
Feb 16 2011: "...would there really be in idyllic world waiting in the end of this war?" The war in your part of the world? A hypothetical idyllic (impossible) situation where *all* parties are suddenly atheists? I would think the war would have subsided dramatically, not because disagreements will disappear, but because there will be more empathy and compassion for the other side, not being demonized and dehumanized.
- +1
I like your dream, Roi. I hope more would share yours and make it a reality, not the nightmare it currently is. Shalom and Salam.
Comment deleted
Feb 17 2011: Wouldn't your proposal of co-existence require that the two opposing forces are trying to answer different questions? I think of it as science and religion following parallel paths, both leading to understanding, but they're not paths that can be traveled in the same way. That is, a railroad track can only carry trains, and a road, cars. They may both go from town A to town B, but the paths slightly different, the obstacles and mechanisms to get around there even more divergent.
Maybe there will be a day when more people follow one path (aka the train, or science) than the other. In the meantime, all those within the community can do is try to make their path better through work, questions, and developing an understanding of the world at large. But if one happily travels by car, without disrupting my train ride, then who am I to tell them to stop?
Thor Kvinger
Feb 16 2011: I define religion as a set of beliefs and values, rather than a specific belief in God, therefore there will never be a world without religion or religious organizations. The most popular forms of religion will evolve over time due to changes in culture and scientific discovery.
- +1
I think we are all susceptible to religions doctrines, but I think that cultural change and scientific discovery are now moving forward so quickly that traditional, faith-based religious organizations have fallen behind: it is no longer credible to deny evolution or to tell gay people that they are sinners.Feb 16 2011: Well, I believe there will never come that day.
Religion is just one of the many natural forces. It has never been a completely manipulated movement. Instead, it is there because there is a need for it. Religious thinking, just as Agnosticism or Atheism, is a frame of mind. Not all people like you and me are skeptically oriented. Most people want to believe in something (not necessarily the truth) to lead on with their lives. And life is still pretty hard for most people on this planet. You can never convince them about the falsity of it - they just can't handle it.
If you somehow manage to get rid of Religion in its many present forms, something else, equally and spectacularly untrue will inevitably take its place.
So deal with it or not, you will have to live with 'religion' as long as there is mankind.
Thinking in an evolutionary perspective, it might even be a consequence of the leaders-followers pattern. Mankind, at least in its earliest form, had "leaders" who were the risk taking, adventurous, curiosity-driven, knowledge-hungry individuals and the "followers", who were relatively clueless and looked up to the "leaders" to be informed about objectives of their own lives and clan. The many unexplainable phenomena had to have explanations to satisfy the "followers". It was just not good enough to wait for centuries for the intellectuals to figure it out. Unfortunately, this is still vibrant in the way the news media are bombarding the masses with stupid information.Feb 16 2011: You have to have feeling, soul, and also not let go of critical thinking. So in that spirit I will try answer you question. I look at this world--sheeesh!!! What do I see. I see people divided from each other because of religious beliefs. The big players are really coming from the Abrahamic belief system out of which branh Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam.
Wityh Judaism comes--for the fundamential believers the 'we are the chosen ones of God'. For the Christians 'ONLY through Jesus', and for the Muslims ONLY their God Allah is the right one, and they deserve the world, and their Shariah Law is brutal and medieval
Now, then you got the Richard Dawkin religion--he proudly calls it militant atheism. What do I see? A MECHANISTIC paradigm is what I see which stems FROm more so the Abrahamic belief systems which had already placed spirit outside nature, outside the body----hence its/theior demonization of peoples who had religions which were animist!
Who have I left out? The Eastern belief systems. Mostly world denying, and in India, the Caste system, and terrible poverty.
So it seems to me we need radical new thinking. Not exactly a going back to pre-everything I have said, but now we HAVE the internet and can LOOK at all these beliefs, ideas, etc etc--to REALLY look at the actual. What are we doing in this earth. What is HAPPENING to this earth which is our home and will be our childrens and their childrens home and is homes to millions of other species. ARE our stories helping is LIVE healthily. IF you are honest--dead honest, how do you FEEL? I think these questions are dead serious and are authetic religious questions which blow away the BS religious facade, and I include the Cult of Scientism in that too.
HAVE we lost feeling? Why have we? What will it mean to get it back and how will we? Can you stand alone doing this or do you need a group and/or leader. How serious and urgent do you sense this question is?Feb 15 2011: Well your question is rather loaded and biased by asking "Would the people susceptible to the religious doctrines really abandon illogical thinking", but I doubt religion will ever disappear from the human experience any more than culture will. Both religion and culture seem to be subject to the same forces of adaptation and diversity as our underlying genes. However what does seem to be happening to genes, culture and religion is that the breaking down of barriers in modern connected society seems to be giving rise to two opposing processes: (1) a great homogenization (intermarriage, globalization, global lingua franca, the commoditization of knowledge, non-denominational religions); and (2) a Cambrian explosion of creativity and diversity in completely new forms (remix culture, creative commons, new-age spirituality, reformed/restored/reorganized churches, creation of new genetic class distinctions by intellectuality, etc.). Force (1) would seem to wipe out diversity; force (2) would restore it. Religion will be subjected to these two two forces just like culture and our genes. Neither force ever seems to win out, but swinging too far in either direction seems to cause a governor or "invisible hand" to kick in and swing things back in the other direction.Mar 13 2011: Are There any known Atheist organization currently involved in any socio-economic, aid organization, amnesty group, hunger relief etc.... and if not, why not. Just curious.
Mar 14 2011: Any non-religious-based NGO you could think of is essentially an atheist one (as in "not related to any god"). It's just that they don't advertise themselves as such, the same way non-religious schools are just "public" and "private" schools, and not "public atheist school" and "private atheist school".
Mar 14 2011: Quite an assumption. My question was if there are any known Atheist Organizations, specifically ones which advertise as such and what are they doing. What is there mission statement etc...Mar 13 2011: I would like all pseudoscience eradicated...
And I would add warning signs to everything that is proven to be wrong.
Ok... I'm dreaming out loud...
But this would hold if we are making claims about reality (so claiming truth)... When that happens, we should all realize the only right and rational answer is through science... even if we know that is a cumbersome way to obtain knowledge. (And people now thinking that science claims to have all the answers: WRONG and you just made a big logical error)
For all other things: things we don't know, understand, things we feel, experience, the bonds in our lives: use whatever methaphor you like to feel "connected" (Religare in Latin means "connecting")
Your feelings are a true experience, what you feel to be true is not always true.
I think the world would look less wrongMar 11 2011: What are companies at the Apex of the sciences doing with the knowledge and technology they have so "graciously" copyrighted or made secret? ie Monsanto.
I think this is a most salient point most of those who rail against faith miss.
Science, the summum bonum of our ability to define and thereby control our environment, must always work in tandem with morality, which is the root of our accountability.
Raw science has no intersest in accountability other than proving an observatiion infallible, and securing the means (Money) to continue research. So what if we cripple our bioshpere or kill millions in the process.
I would go so far as to say that anytime science has been used to the betterment of mankind it happened because those involved with the genisis of the technology had some sense of morals which, like it or not, have origins in the wisdom intrinsic to some faith.
Mar 12 2011: FYI it wasn't scientists who decided to copyright seeds, it was politicians (the majority of whom in this country are "christian"), who were in turn influenced by businessmen. Raw science has interest in accountability and morals, they are called ethics boards, and they are in place for most scientific research. That is why experiments like the stanford prison experiment, or the little albert experiment would never be allowed nowadays. Einstein regretted his letter to FDR suggesting the weaponization of fission until the day he died. Morals do not come from faith, they come from the fact that if you are a monkey and you kill another monkey for no reason, you get booted from the tribe. Faith is control through seduction (heaven), or fear (hell).
Mar 13 2011: I would argue that they are at least guilty by association (specifically where such abominations contain kill genes etc...).Mar 7 2011: How about a world with ONE religion! Then you would just have followers and atheists. Saves the world from so much.Mar 6 2011: A world without religion will be a world of everyone arguing and fighting to become the ALMIGHTY. Very noisy!


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July 8th, 2015
Browse Archive by Day
Free carbon monoxide detectors offered as important reminder
10/23/2013 7:17amWith the colder winter months approaching, the Salt Lake City Fire Department is reminding homeowners about the importance of having carbon monoxide detectors.
GOP wants to tweak caucus night
10/23/2013 8:37amThe Utah Republican Party wants to tweak caucus night, as a movement tries to do away with the system altogether.
Travel vouchers may not be what they seem, BBB says
10/23/2013 10:20amMany Utahns have received exciting news that they've won free airline tickets, but is it really as wonderful as it seems?
BYU student invents product '100 times stronger' than duct tape
10/23/2013 11:43amA BYU student is getting a lot of attention for his new product that came on the market earlier this year. He claims the product can permanently fix all kinds of things whether they are wood, metal or plastic — and it is flying off of store shelves.
PETA: Carriage company fails to report accidents
10/23/2013 1:34pmAnimal rights activists are urging officials to revoke the license of a carriage company whose horse died after a high-profile collapse in Salt Lake City.
SUV drives off ramp, crashes in Provo
10/23/2013 3:03pmA man received only minor injuries after his vehicle veered off the road and down an embankment.
19-year-old dies from injuries weeks after being shot
10/23/2013 4:53pmA 19-year-old man shot earlier this month in Salt Lake City has died from his injuries.
Ex-teacher accused of exploiting children faces new charges
10/23/2013 5:24pmNew charges were filed against a former schoolteacher and Boy Scout leader Wednesday as he made his first appearance in court on multiple charges of child pornography.
1 injured in crash with firetruck, pickup and car
10/23/2013 6:23pmOne man is in serious condition after a crash involving a truck, a car and a firetruck.
Judge denies media access to hearing for death-row inmate
10/23/2013 6:47pmA mental competency hearing for one of Utah's most infamous killers and longest-standing death-row inmate is scheduled to be held Thursday — but behind closed doors.
Firefighters unsure what caused pallet fire that destroyed sheds
10/23/2013 7:10pmFire investigators are working to completely put out a business fire in Magna and figure what caused the blaze that destroyed several sheds Wednesday morning.
Marvel author, artist teams up with Utahn to create game
10/23/2013 8:03pmMarvel cartoonist Christopher Hastings and Syracuse resident Blake Hansen have teamed up to create a game based on the "Dr. McNinja" cartoon filled with ninjas, mustaches and unicorns.
Group knits purple caps to create awareness for shaken baby syndrome
10/23/2013 8:04pmA Utah baby died of shaken baby syndrome in September, and a group committed to educating young parents gathered Wednesday to knit baby caps for the campaign.
Parents with teens killed in car accidents share message of safety
10/23/2013 8:15pmIt's Teen Safe Driving Week, and a group of Utah parents who lost their children to traffic accidents have teamed up to spread the word about the importance of safety behind the wheel — especially when it comes to new drivers.
MacNeill had pills flushed after wife's death, witness says
10/23/2013 8:30pmHours after his wife's death, Martin MacNeill had her remaining prescription drugs counted, documented and then flushed down a toilet.
5 'haunted' places in Salt Lake City
10/23/2013 8:31pmThis Halloween, if you are looking for a real scare, learn about the ghosts of Salt Lake City, and if you dare, visit those in places open to the public.
Ex-prosecutor accused of assaulting girlfriend inside courthouse
10/23/2013 8:42pmA former Salt Lake County prosecutor, who is already facing a number of felony charges, stands accused of assaulting his girlfriend during an argument at the 8th District courthouse in Duchesne.
Military father joins adoption hearing of 2 girls via Skype
10/23/2013 9:19pmTwo sisters are now formally part of the Brewer family after joining their mother and siblings in court to get their adoptions finalized. Dad was there too, thanks to Skype.
Bones discovered in SLC home are likely 100 years old, Native American
10/23/2013 10:01pmA state forensic anthropologist has determined the bones discovered in a Salt Lake home date back more than 100 years and are likely Native American.
Teams, individuals set records at UHSAA state cross country
10/23/2013 10:31pmThe high school cross country championships took place at Sugarhouse Park this week and a few state records were set.
Docs get more precise about full-term pregnancy
10/23/2013 10:36pmMom-to-be closing in on her due date? The nation's obstetricians are getting more precise about exactly how close makes for a full-term pregnancy.
Capitol intruder may have been promoting marijuana legalization, police say
10/23/2013 10:42pmAs investigators try to find out more about the motive behind the man who police say drove his truck up the state Capitol steps Tuesday, questions about tightening security are also being raised.
Attempted kidnapping in Brigham City worries parents, police
10/23/2013 10:59pmConcern is growing for police in Brigham City who have multiple reports of a man trying to lure young children.
Man evades police on high-speed chase, allegedly steals taxi
10/23/2013 11:59pmPolice are searching for a man they say fled from officers, crashed his car and hijacked a taxi to evade them.
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Cal Poly was dominating UCLA in the 2013 Los Angeles Regional. But then Matt Imhof's no hitter was broken up and then after a couple of bloop hits, the shutout was no longer in place. A pitching change followed by a strikeout and a routine flyball should have ended the Bruins' threat, but instead, Nick Torres lost the ball in the lights. UCLA tied the game and took the lead the next inning. Cal Poly never recovered.
That is what has been on the Mustangs' minds for the past 12 months. Finally, Cal Poly has its opportunity for redemption. Imhof will likely be on the mound Friday night. Torres will undoubtedly be in right field, but instead of Jackie Robinson Field, Torres will be patrolling the Baggett Stadium grass.
With a 45-10 record and a No. 6 ranking in the NCBWA poll, the Mustangs earned the honor of hosting an NCAA Regional for the first time in Division I program history. They will welcome the Pac-12's Arizona State, and a pair of California conference champs in Pepperdine and Sacramento State.
Continue reading 2014 San Luis Obispo NCAA Regional Preview


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Sleeve Length: 10 1/4"
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Rated 5 out of 5Â by wlw perfection This top is perfect! It is very flattering with the peplum waist and the lace is very romantic and reminiscent of victorian times. I wear mine with boyfriend jeans and heels I get tons of compliments! This shirt is very unique and doesn't look like anything else in my closet. I got the ivory color in my usual size and it is pure perfection! 2.3.2013
Rated 4 out of 5Â by luvcharm good enough to keep honestly, i'm not totally in love with this top, but the fit was good enough for me to like and keep. it looks nice on me. i needed more of a variety in tops anyway. my usual size s is really form fitting like, if i gain a few more pounds it will probably be too tight. it's also very short, but i think it's supposed to be that way. the only thing i think is a bit weird is the detailing across the chest and its color combination. it's hard to explain; it's just different. what is it like a mustard color on charcoal that is supposed to be black? and the one on the ivory color looks more navy blue than black. 1.23.2013
Rated 5 out of 5Â by HannahA Great shirt Incredible quality and super cute. I got it in my usual size (XS, 5'2, 110 lbs, 32B). I wouldn't say it runs large, but it's lose-fitting, while other shirts of this style are usually tight. I have the blue/mustard and wear it dressed up with a black mini skirt and wedges, or dressed down with jeans and knee high boots. Love it, worth the price. 1.3.2013
Rated 5 out of 5Â by bmay so pretty this is by far one of my favourite purchases. its so unique and pretty you'll automatically stand out and fall in love with it. i ordered the ivory style in xs, im 105 pounds and 5'4 and it fits perfectly. it is a bit lose but i think if it was any tighter it wouldnt flow properly and it would be hard to get on considering the material is kinda stiff. I think its a plus that the type lace used is so different and thick. i also like that the back of the shirt has a little cut out, it really compliments the shirt. since it doesnt come with a slip underneath i pair it with a beige lace bandeau and it looks gorgeous. The shirt is really flattering but i recommend it to more petite figures. 11.24.2012
Rated 3 out of 5Â by gossamerdreams Looks better on... Tried this on in the store and it looks much better on than i thought...still, the fabric is kinda stiff and the sleeves did not fall nicely on me. It fits loosely,dark color lighter, kinda a espresso/charcoal hue and the embroidery paler, looks better than in the shots, imho. And weren't it for the sleeve-thing i might have purchased it. 11.16.2012
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+ - Google Maps finally available on iOS
Submitted by hcs_$reboot
hcs_$reboot writes: After the disastrous Apple Maps replacement over Google Maps in September, Google made a Maps app on iOS approved and released by Apple today. The app includes turn-by-turn directions, vector-based graphics and live traffic data. It's available from the Apple Store for iPhone and iPod touch (and iPad — iPhone format). At least.


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Dual Master's Degree for Deaconesses, Social Workers Launches This Fall
Saint Louis University has partnered with Concordia Seminary to offer a dual master's degree for students interested in pursuing careers as deaconesses and social workers. It's the first time the two institutions have partnered on an academic program.
Starting this fall, eligible students can begin seeking the dual-degree — a master of social work (MSW) from SLU and a master of arts in deaconess studies from Concordia. The new program is offered in collaboration with the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS).
Donald Linhorst, Ph.D.
"We believe the dual-degree program will increase professional services to help the Lutheran church address the social needs of the communities it serves," said Donald Linhorst, Ph.D., director of SLU's School of Social Work. "The school already has strong working relationships with Lutheran service agencies, and we look forward to this new opportunity to work together."
Concordia is one of two seminaries of the LCMS offering pastoral and deaconess formation and programs for theological scholars. Through the dual-degree program, students will receive theological education and formation along with the framework, skills and resources necessary to engage in social work practice that is especially geared to help the ministries and service organizations recognized by the LCMS.
"We are very excited about the new opportunities that this relationship with Saint Louis University offers to our students and the church," said Erik Herrmann, M.Div., Ph.D., director of deaconess studies at Concordia Seminary.
Proposals also are in the works to partner SLU's MSW program with Concordia Seminary's master of divinity and master of arts in theology degree programs.
For more information about the dual degree program, call the admissions department at Concordia Seminary at 800-822-9545, or the master of social work program at Saint Louis University at 314-977-2752.


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Nestled at the edge of the breathtaking Rocky Mountains, Colorado Springs offers all of the amenities of a sprawling city, yet still maintains a small-town feel. Not only does the impressive mountain scenery offer the opportunity for a myriad of adventures, but the city itself is filled with cultural attractions including historical sites, world-class venues for popular performers, museums, and more. Hotels in Colorado Springs offer an especially wide range of accommodation options; you'll find everything from ritzy resorts to very affordable hotels with the basics and everything in between.
Travelers have their choice of a variety of Colorado Springs hotels found in the downtown area for easy access to exciting entertainment, shopping, and art galleries, as well as lodging options in Colorado Springs that are closer to the many wonders of Mother Nature found here. Broadmoor neighborhood hotels include a number of high-end resorts with beautiful mountain views just steps away from the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo and Garden of the Gods. Hotels in the Old Colorado City area are popular with art and history lovers, home to dozens of galleries and boutiques as well as the history center, and home to an extensive collection of artifacts related to the history of the region.
Whether you're looking for the best money can buy, or the best value, Colorado Springs hotels have something to offer all tastes and budgets. Those with money to burn will find five-star luxury digs with amenities like world-class spas, championship golf courses, and fine restaurants all right onsite. For your business trip to Colorado Springs, there are several hotels that will fit the bill, featuring amenities like free Wi-Fi, a business center, and a convenient location near the convention center.
Whatever your reason for visiting Colorado Springs, hotels here are sure to help make your trip a memorable one.


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The Amberger Congress Centrum is one of Bavaria's leading congress centres. What sets it apart is its eye for something special, a spontaneous idea at the right time and that extra degree of flexibility. A range of optimised packages also makes it easier to calculate the costs.
The multi-functional and versatile ACC, a futuristic-looking building in an idyllic park setting, boasts a large conference hall, five flexible meeting rooms, additional workshop rooms and three foyers. It is the ideal business location for between ten and 800 people and offers an underground car park, direct hotel access, its own restaurant and proximity to the historical old quarter. The glass-panelled facade affords almost uninterrupted views of the idyllic countryside of this town on the Vils river and fills all of the rooms with natural light. The Amberger Congress Centrum is barrier-free.
Amberg's late medieval townscape is said to be one of the most beautiful in all of Bavaria. In collaboration with Deutsche Bahn, the ACC offers an event ticket that enables affordable and convenient travel to Amberg. The events team at the centre can arrange a wide range of experiences and activities for conference delegates – a true one-stop service.
The new promotional video at www.acc-amberg.de offers a comprehensive insight into the world of conferences at the ACC with fascinating impressions and unusual camera angles!