text:
- Jean-Charles Longuet
- Lille
- France
This conversation is closed.
Telling the truth: are there limits?
Two recent talks focused on "Truth" as something good/moral. Practically, however, some information may cause havoc: the Wikileaks diplomatic data disclosure, for example, coulad have put some people at risk.
How should we manage the decision to disclose (or not) such information? Or manage the moral dilemma when telling a lie may have a positive outcome?
[update 2012/11/25] The conversation initially mixed a few things : Truth is something that is not as obvious as it seems, and Lies are more related to a deceiving/manipulative intention that to the hiding of some Truth.
Anyway, all points of views are welcome.
Comment deleted
Nov 21 2012: Wikileaks seems a good example to me as it show the impact of full disclosure. I used former Wired journalist Kim Zetter as a source (in http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/media/july-dec11/wikileaks_09-06.html). She was shortlisted for investigations prices and seems a correct source to me. To cite her :
"So what we have are about between 2,000 and 3,000 names of people identified by U.S. diplomatic sources whose identity should have been -- should have been protected.
We have about 150 whistle-blowers identified, about 1,000 activists named in the documents. So, previously, all of these would have been blacked out and protected."
As giving explicit names can only point out people already at risk, not hearing more about them does not seem an argument to me...
Comment deleted
Nov 22 2012: I read the full article, and while I I fully agree that this specific publishing was not deliberate, the fact still stands : some data disclosure occured, that may present a risk (I was assertive with the Wikileak example, I should have be more cautious) .
Now, just to make my point clear : I used the Wikileaks disclosure as an example regarding the moral behavior that is required (or not, depending your opinion) about information communication, not as a trial against Wikileaks.
So, maybe indeed nobody hurted, nobody was put at risk. I doubt we could ever have a clear view about it
David Fuchs
Nov 17 2012: "Telling the truth: are there limits?"
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Truth has no limits except absolute.
The correct question to ask is "How much deception and how many lies are allowable from politicians?"
Nov 17 2012: Allowable up to the point where their pants catch fire. That way, their extinction is assured.Nov 18 2012: Love your proposed alternative question! Another spin would be: "How can half our country think the presidential candidate they did *not* vote for is lying, and the other half think he's telling the truth?"
Nov 18 2012: I did post the alternate question here on TED :)
Barry Palmer
Nov 14 2012: Honesty is the best policy.
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All policies must be applied on a case by case basis.
There are values of more importance than honesty.
Speak the truth or the lie, whichever will cause the less harm.
Every lie causes some harm to the liar.
When in doubt, be honest.
Nov 17 2012: Re: "When in doubt, be honest."
It's just easier this way - fewer things to remember and worry about.Nov 30 2012: If everyone is honest all the time, there would have been no reason to hide anything. There would be no danger if all is open and clear. To lie to someone not only harms them but harms yourself. You have to spend more resources on continuing the illusion. When you tell the truth, you do not have to remember what you said, and you do not have to be worried about what may be coming for you. If the truth causes that same trouble (example of pissing people off) you shouldn't have dealt with that violent and primitive person to begin with.
Kerry Reid
Nov 27 2012: The perception that lying can act as a solution is an underlying problem. More often it opens an inevitable can of worms which cannot be undone. Truth will out....
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Elizabeth Gu
Nov 25 2012: First, it's a matter of definition. I think 'Truth' certainly means more than 'facts'.
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To journalists, "No, there's no limit. You should do your best to tell the truth to the readers."
To the pathological truth-tellers(such as who can never lie..even white lie), "Telling the truth and being so uniquely obsessed with telling facts are different. So there are limits in this case."
To anyone, let's not being manipulative when it comes to telling the truth.Nov 25 2012: Beyond the irrefutability of facts, I think we all lie, and should just come to terms with it. That is the complication of being human.
As said below, we live in a highly politicized environment, and are constantly hedging what we really want to say, just to keep the peace. Yet, others have said that we weave a tangled web in society if we don't speak the truth. Both are "true"! Ha ha!
I find that our "evolved" sense of fashion, appearance, esp. in the West, is the perfect analogy for all this. We don't smell this good, we can't travel this fast, we aren't this tall, this pretty, this enhanced, yet, we pretend we are in order to secure a mate, a job, a loan. We even train ourselves to "see through" all of that in others in order to be on top of the game.
At this point, I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that there are absolutes in terms of: should we lie or shouldn't we, except about facts. We all know it's political. For the issue of Wikileaks, governments owe their taxpayers, funders and international supporters, a level of care. If there are facts showing flagrant abuse of that, then, as painful as it is, they need to be known and addressed.Nov 25 2012: "If you always tell the truth, you don't need a good memory". .... I always liked that one until, I realized that truth is subjective and arguable. ..... I realize that this topic at this particular forum is not addressing this type of truth but, I can't help but to add that truth and reality could be twins. ..... I am often unsure about either one.
Nov 25 2012: The current topic is quite open, so your input is welcome.
Truth is indeed not that objective : facts are subject to our perception flaws, and things are even worse when we enter the field of our thoughts, feelings, etc. And thereafter, the fact of hiding/distorting our perception of Truth is another point : it it is done with a positive intent, is it morally acceptable or not ?
Bobby Bakshi
Nov 24 2012: As many of us, I grew up with that constant reminder from my parents, particularly my Mom, to always tell the truth. Naturally I tested the boundaries on that and yet always feared being "found out." Now having experienced truth both from being trusted and trusting others I know this is the foundation of humanity. I get the data that the written word is more true than the spoken--more accountability in the written word. And that's a sad state isn't it? I wonder if the research looks at other dimensions of people who do their "inner work" and have a deeper radar for truth speaking than others. Plus there's a cultural pattern of letting people get away with "white lies" as a given vs. having direct accountability.
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To me it's not morality, it's at the essence of what makes me feel good about myself and sleep with ease vs. not. It's an internal radar.
Nov 25 2012: Why is it that "telling the Truth" is perceived as something "Good" for you ? For example "helping Others" is something as important from a social point of view. Is "telling the Truth" preferred because it costs nothing ?
Bobby Bakshi
Nov 25 2012: I believe "the truth shall set you free" is spot on Jean-Charles. In fact it costs the most--telling lies does. Look at Lance Armstrong, Tiger Woods, Madoff and the list is endless. There is no upside to being anything but honest. The systemic problem in my humble opinion is people are unwilling to be honest with themself.
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Nov 25 2012: ex.
Do you tell your friend, who his wife just died, that his wife had been having an affair...Being asked if you know who the guy in the background of the funural was, even though you really know everything..
What would be best for your friend, if lets say, he takes his wifes death extremely poorly. What is best for their children etc?
Should guys tell there wifes they look fat in that dress, when they do?
Should girls stop acting like all our faults are ok/not there most of the time?
I'm not sure i would answer the same on all, but those questions are indicators that the wrong truth might ex. make someone depressed, a killer, or take their own life
I was actually a huge fan of extreme truth telling at one time, but I found out most can't handle it and will react very irrationally (from my point of view) when presented with truths they even asked for in the first place. People dont want the truth alle the time. So now I lie all the time like everybody else.
My mother is a Jehovas Witness, and even they lie, all the time! To protect and serve each other (avoid conflicts f.ex.). But they don't percieve it like that though (when asked about it, they respond they never lie, which ironically also is a lie :)Nov 25 2012: Kaare,
You ask..."Do you tell your friend, who his wife just died, that his wife had been having an affair..."
If I am directly asked the question, I tell what I know. If the person is asking the question, s/he probably already knows. How does it serve anyone to lie?
If I am asked a question such as this, I ask the person...."do you honestly want the answer"? If we do not honestly want a truthful answer, I suggest we do not ask the question.
Guys no not have to tell their wives thay look fat. If a guy is creative and intelligent enough, he might say something like..."that dress does not look as good on you as that other dress that I really like". If the wife (or husband) is overweight, you can tell him/her that you care about them very much, and you are concerned about their health.....suggest that you walk together each day, or some other exercise together.
Many people CAN handle truth Kaare, and truth has to start in ourselves. Perhaps it is how you present the truth? I am getting an idea of how you communicate based on your comments,.
Everybody does not lie, and I'm glad you say your comments are from your "point of view", because it certainly is not truth.
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes...."
(Marcel Proust)
Sometimes, when we have a certain "point of view", it is helpful to consider information from a different perspective, to discover the real truth. As long as your point of view, is that everybody lies, you are, of course justifying it in yourself.
Tim Spahn
Nov 25 2012: Telling the Truth is perceived as something "Good" for you because people can choose how to respond (act) under the circumstances. If the used car salesman will just tell me the shiny blue car has a broken motor then I can choose to find another one. At the heart of social responsibility is violating the free will of others. Some even say human free will should be considered as sacred. Extreme crimes are obvious examples of such violations but hiding the truth from another person impedes their ability to choose a course of action, like a husband or wife who does not want to live with a cheater.
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I disagree that telling the truth costs nothing. Just ask the used car salesman. He failed to sell me the blue car because in a brief moment of altruism he informed me about the broken motor and I bought another car (from another salesman). People lie to protect their investments. Spouses hide infidelity because they want their home life and their extra-marital adventures as well. To tell their spouse would "cost" them their happy (if half-hearted) home.
One has to care about other people in order to tell the truth just because it is the right thing to do. Compassion and empathy are qualities that accrue to the evolved in our society. Such people invariably find it wise to live a life that does not require hiding the truth from others. The Golden Rule--to do unto others as you would have them do unto you--is in my opinion more of a warning or a recommendation than just nice advice to be nice to other people. The Biblical phrase "the truth shall set you free" is matched with "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows (Galatians 6:7-9)." Those who fear God's wrath for lying do so due to the notion that in the next life (a just place) one will not know the truth somehow and that will be an unfortunate situation. In the end, it is right to tell the Truth because the absolute truth about us is, in Itself, our Salvation.
"Know thyself."Nov 25 2012: Bobby and Jean-Charles,
I agree Bobby, that telling the truth does not come up on my "radar" necessarily as a moral issue, although it certainly can be intertwined with morality. For me, the question is....what feels better? Telling the truth....or not? Wherever we go, there we are with our "self". How does it feel when we are carrying a lie around with us?
"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!"
Lies do indeed become tangled, because once a lie is spoken, one generally needs to continue with the lie to keep covering it up. No point in living like that, in my humble opinion.
Along the same line, I also agree with what Vincenzo Sergi writes on this thread... "If you always tell the truth, you don't need a good memory". It must be very confusing when someone is weaving his/her web of lies, and forgets what s/he said to whom!!!
You write in your introduction...."some information may cause havoc". This is true, and in making the decision to tell a lie, we are making a judgement based on our own perceptions. We are actually trying to control the beliefs of the person to whom we lie....are we not? And what kind of "havoc" is sometimes the result of the lie? Once a lie is told, we undermine our "self", so that people are less willing to trust any more. It is important for each of us as individuals to know what our own limits are, do you think? How do we want to "BE" in this world in each and every moment?
Nov 25 2012: Kaare--I see the distinction as "staying on my side of the street" vs. stepping into another's integrity (or not). This rule only applies as the internal radar. Do I judge, as in thinking my wife needs to loose weight etc., absolutely I judge? Do I need to speak everyone of those? No.
I'm talking about those lies I tell myself and so skillfully I start to believe they ARE the truth. That internal talk. If I take the time to get quiet and allow my inner guidance to truly speak, then perhaps I allow for the deepest truth to be revealed.Nov 25 2012: Colleen, you are right when stating that lying or, more generally, misinforming is a way to control the reaction of people. However, people have great consideration about not being lied to, but are perfectly ok when being convinced by apparent logic. And I want to point out "apparent" because when you look more carefully, people are not convinced only by logic, but also by their own biases, by storytelling, by rhetoric, etc. So a manipulative intent is not always a lie, and trying to control or change someone's beliefs can be done while speaking the truth.
I won't tell a dying woman that her son was just killed in an accident, if asked, I would blatantly lie to her saying he's ok, because I want her to be in peace for her last minutes. I may stay silent about some facts when the one who committed them shows repentance.That is my point of view, and I can understand that people can disagree. I just consider that following basic rules is not adapted to all situations, and that choices are required in such cases. At times, governments themselves had dark times and speaking the truth made dramas occur. So I care more about outcomes than on rules to feel ok with my conscience.
Nov 25 2012: Jean-Charles,
I agree that if they let themselves, people can be controled by the reaction of people, by misinformation, by apparent logic, which can also be lying or deception, by biases, storytelling, etc. etc.
Yes...absolutely...some folks can indeed try to control or change someone'e beliefs with speaking their own truths.
Your theory about not giving a dying person information because you want her to be in peace for her last minutes, doesn't feel good to me, because some of us are able to sense when someone is not telling the truth. So, lying to me because I am on my death bed may actually cause more distress for me...I could probably sense a lie, and may not actually know what the lie is. I may simply know there is an untruth.
Perhaps it boils down to what we would prefer ourselves? Do unto others, as you would want them to do unto you? I personally, would prefer truth...whatever the circumstances, and that is what I give to others, to the best of my ability. With lies, we are usually trying to create our own comfort and/or protection, not that of the one we are lying to.
I agree with the idea Tim Spahn brings to light...
When we tell the truth, we give people accurate information and they can choose how to respond (act) under the circumstances. If we do not give them accurate information, we deny them that opportunity. Hiding the truth from another person impedes their ability to choose a course of action.
I agree with you Jean-Charles, that at the end of the day, I care more about outcomes, and that is the important piece of the puzzle. I always feel much more content with truth and honesty:>)
Anne N
Nov 19 2012: My stand on this is as follows:
- +2
We should tell the truth as far as possible. However, I think there are two types of times when the truth will hurt someone. 1) When the truth will hurt someone irreversibly or 2) When it will hurt someone and then gradually help that person/ make the person glad that at least they knew the truth early on.
When the truth we tell would lead to option 2, we should tell the truth.
However, what do we do when we think a truth will irreversibly affect someone? Well, we can do two things.
1) Lie or 2) Tell the truth in a more well-packaged manner i.e deliver the truth while keeping the facts there.
In this case, I feel that people should go with the second approach.
Lies do snowball.
Telling lies often do lead to positive outcomes but I believe they lead to short term positive outcomes, not long term ones. The truth on the other hand, can lead to both positive/ negative outcomes in the short and long term but at the end of the day, people are MOSTLY glad to know the truth.
Nov 21 2012: "When the truth will hurt someone irreversibly"
Do you have an example of this? I can't think of any possiblility of that.
I happen to think that the truth applies in the second way almost exclusively.
Anne N
Nov 23 2012: Hmm. My take is that the truth would hurt someone irreversibly if the person does not have the personality to let go of the truth and move on from the truth especially if the truth was packaged in such a harsh way that it affects the person's self esteem.
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For example, I shall give a scenario of a student that tries extremely hard but fails every subject and does terribly in his or her school activities, and a teacher telling the student "You're a failure in everything you do". To a person who has the ability to let go of this harsh comment, he or she may decide to prove the teacher wrong and try even harder or find another passion which he or she can excel in etc.
However, to a person who does not have the personality to forget and move on, he or she may drop out of school and continue to believe that they are not capable of doing anything. Thus, his or her life may be ruined from this remark.
Having said that, I believe that the teacher should not lie to the student. Rather, the teacher should have delivered the truth in a "better package" whilst keeping the facts. For example "I see that you have been failing your subjects and doing badly in your school activities. I know that you are trying really hard. However, from my experience, every student has their strengths and weaknesses. Maybe you have yet to find your passion."
Nov 23 2012: I think this is a good way to approach the matter. It is akin to the question of how your life changes in relating to this person.
"It's not 'what' you say, it's 'how' you say it."
"if the person does not have the personality to let go..."
Is it ok to fore-go a "yes or no," and give an answer which can be remembered and learned-from as that person ages & changes? (And what-then if they demand a yes or no?)
Anne N
Nov 26 2012: Thanks, Steve! Hmm. I would say that if the person does not have the personality to let go, a yes or no should still be given but following that/ before that, words which can be remembered and learned from can be given.Nov 17 2012: Let there be no doubt about it: There are times when you should lie. When all of us would lie.
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I'll start with a 'Reductio ad absurdum' argument (latin for a philosophical argument called reduction to absurdity). A killer breaks into your house and asks where you hide the cash. You have a large bag of cash under your mattress. Perfectly OK to lie here and say you have no cash, right? I mean, I don't think there's any moral dilemma here about lying.
Then there is the classic: "Honey, do I look fat in this outfit?" Let's say that person's right about to go on stage and make a major political speech. You don't want to mess them up, ruin their mojo, so one could argue it's OK to say "No", no matter what. Some would agree that's ok, some would not.
And so it goes on from here. We can keep expanding the scope, question by question, asking, "Would it be OK to lie in this hypothetical situation?" What if a homeless man broke into your home and asks you for some food. OK to lie and say you have no food then? We'd get general agreement on many scenarios, maybe some debate on others. I suppose I'm describing a hypothetical crowd-sourced polling system where we could poll large enough groups of people to determine under which situations most people agree it's ok to lie. Crowd sourced morality, if you will.
I am guessing there are probably studies about such things, from which you could derive more general rules that would begin to describe the limits to telling the truth.
You could also adopt a strict religious or moral framework without question, rather than try to build up a sort of moral filter based consensus thinking or on the society in which you live.
There is an inverse question, almost sinister in its inception: Telling lies: Are there any limits?
James Pete
Nov 17 2012: The unmentioned assumption throughout these posts is that there an objective and knowable reality "out there" against which we measure a truth. I would argue that language, the matter of lies and of science also, is never value-free and context-free, that context is ever a part of our construct of reality, of what really happened.
- +1
Perhaps a story will suffice. A farmer hauling a cow in his truck gets blindsided by another vehicle. The farmer sues the other guy. In court now, the lawyer for the other guy says, "The police report indicates that when asked, you said you were fine."
"Look, I'm hurt and your client did it"
"But at the scene of the accident, did you or did you not tell the officer that you were fine?"
"After your client hit me, I was stuck in the cab, but I could hear my cow moaning. That's when the policeman drove up, approached my cow, and shot her between the eyes. He then opened the cab, gun drawn, and asked, 'How are you doing?' Oh, I'm fine, I said."
Nov 18 2012: I understand what you're saying about the assumption that there's a knowable reality out there. However I don't think that's relevant to lying, as lying requires an intent to deceive, regardless of what the reality is or whether there is an objective or knowable reality.
I think the ontology of truth, while related to the subject of lying, is a different philosophical inquiry.
Steve C
Nov 18 2012: "A killer breaks into your house"... hmmm, you tell a lie; he leaves & goes to your neighbors & kills them instead. Or tell him the truth & hope he appreciates the truth enough to let you live. (Or is this "immaterial," since we can't know his motives or reactions? Does the question then revert to "Is it wrong to lie," - (regardless of the situation)?
- +1
"do I look fat in this" I would say that if they knew you well enough to trust you, then I would hope they trusted that you valued them much more as a person than the amount of value they placed on their appearance! The "truth," then becomes secondary; trust, value, integrity are in effect.
"Crowd sourced morality" is that like "two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner"?
Nov 18 2012: Are you saying that if you believed you had the opportunity to prevent a violent crime like rape or murder to yourself or a loved one by lying, you would not lie in that situation?
Nov 21 2012: (Sorry for the delay, life intervened.)
To reply to your question... I believe I addressed that in my first reply. Again, *what evidence* could lead me to that beliefe? (I've seen contradictory outcomes on tv shows: "Why'd you kill her, I told you where the gold is!")
And how could a lie cause a good response? If rape is the intent, a lie would only enrage the attacker to commit murder as well.
Further; as to your question of rape &/or murder: one syllogism is "shit happens" amungst our society. To lie is to admit you do not believe in the grander system of the value of letting other people know the truth and building rapport; that you only believe in saving your own thin skin.
Is your question merely: "do I have enough faith in a value system to see my own sacrificed, rather than let some other unknown person take a harder sacrifce in my place?"
"an inverse question...: Are there any limits?" interesting
But has the issue been muddied in the ways we view truth & action? We value truth, and we value constructive action, but do the two approach each other from the same direction, or in the same way? One is philospy and one is physics. How ARE the two supposed to meld?
We treat our enemies differently than we treat our friends; we give our friends , (those who help us), truth & food - our enemies, (those who hurt us), we give lies and bullets.
If the truth is strength, should we strengthen our enemies? They're usually our enemies because of differing beliefs; "with, and about" truth. Do we believe that our truth is connected to meanings deep enough to connect to them positively; or are we too entranced by our own lies and toys to ever consider other perspectives?
Helen Hupe
Nov 13 2012: Motive should drive your decision and I speak of compassion as your motive. Even the Bishop lied in "Les Miserable".Nov 30 2012: The only truth that truly exists is that of self, an expression of ones feelings.Nov 28 2012: There is no utter truth. There are only things that exist to our senses as being more probable or less probable. If we concentrate on those things that exemplify a certain "reality" to our senses then our most probable situation (i.e. our truth) will be different than that of someone with dissimilar sense stimulation.
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This is why it is wise for people to gain insight into as many experiences and perspectives as possible, albeit with open minds, in order to derive what is the most probable for one's self. This relates directly to telling the truth or telling a lie in that what may seem absolute for one person may be far-fetched or seem lacking in any validity at all. This is not to say that all is relative, for if that is the case then there is no cause for order- if murder is relatively acceptable for someone and that perspective must be respected by society, then expect a chaotic society. The rule of law inhibits those perspectives with good cause, as doe's society with certain norms. It is with the evolution of these laws and norms that a sensible society can sort through what rules should exist as being more probably acceptable and therefore more "true."
Lying is all about perspective, and carries an undue negative connotation. If deception is used for a cause that is deemed by the enlightened mind to be of worth (more probably good than bad) then, perhaps it is simply a tool in the tool belt of the good willed. Regardless of your personal perspective of Jesus Christ, it can be said that he was quite benevolent- having said that we must remember that, even he deceived the Romans. Perhaps, we would be better to call it being savvy or witty or able to paint a good narrative. Just like anything else, lying is not a bad thing unless used by bad people toward mal ends.
Nov 28 2012: if there is no utter truth, then tell me, the statement "there is no utter truth" itself is an utter truth or not?
Nov 28 2012: The operating word in play is "utter" meaning absolute, beyond the fathom of doubt. It is improbable that such a truth exists- thus, it is a statement made based off of its probability being more likely than less.
Of course there are things that knowledge tells us are, indeed, fact. However, when we examine the trend of human consciousness time itself tends to displace old "facts" because of new discoveries. That is the evolution of probability. The more a person has contemplated and explored a contention the more probable that person is to be right concerning it. This is why wisdom must be sought with each new day and our beliefs must be reinforced daily.Nov 28 2012: Colleen, I guess we are authentic morning people. HAPPY TODAY. I am very glad we express our true thoughts and feelings. We are having a powerfully positive impact on our contemporaries and futurity. I know we shall continue doing all the positive things we do- and more- and the happiness of humanity will spiral up along with us and our spirits.
Nov 28 2012: HAPPY TODAY RHONA!
Yes....I LOVE the morning....well....I LOVE the afternoon, evening and night equally as well...that is the truth:>)
I know you know about the ripple effect...or the butterfly effect:>)
"Life begets life,
Energy creates energy
It is by spending oneself that one becomes rich"
(Sarah Bernhardt)
To "spend" our energy in sharing positive ideas feeds us as individuals, as well as all of humankind...I know you know that:>)
Nov 28 2012: Colleen, We sure do agree about a lot of stuff. I'm glad about that. I trust you will continue being as COLLEEN as you can possibly be. Thank you for all the positive everything you generate. I am confident that we are succeeding in accomplishing all of our positive goals. Afternoons and evenings are okay, but I am definitely most vibrant and productive in the mornings.
Nov 28 2012: Dear Rhona,
Who else could I be without telling a lie???
Thank you too my friend, for being you and sharing the gift here on TED:>)Nov 28 2012: Good point. You are welcome.Nov 27 2012: i would propose that lie can be paralleled to laziness. many questions lead to the same answers. example: is laziness good? certainly no. same for lie. can laziness occasionally lead to more beneficial outcome? yes. for example if i want to do something stupid, but i procrastinate, meanwhile i might learn why it is silly, and do not do that. similarly, in some situations a lie might accidentally make things better. on the other hand one can argue that laziness did not in fact lead to benefit, rather, it was just luck. the same is true for lie, the problem could have been solved in a better way, but by pure luck, the wrong solution worked. is laziness forgivable? yes, in situations. so is lying. can laziness be harmless? yes, in situations. so is lying. is laziness immoral in itself? i would say no. neither lying. on the other hand, if laziness leads to harm, should we blame the lazy? of course! same for lies.
i assert that lying and being lazy are very similar in their moral and consequential nature. but for some reason, laziness is easier to assess.
Nov 27 2012: Interesting parallel, and more suitable for discussion as laziness is less taboo that lies.
However, there seem to be slight differences between both :
- lying is a deliberate act, while being lazy is more inaction than action
- lies outcomes are not accidental, but usually chosen (and explaining the lying action).
This passiveness and unplanned consequences may explain that laziness is perceived as less "evil" than a lie.
Now, lies (usually asserted as evil) may be done while positive consequences as a target : hiding someone from being hurt, for example. I was trying to point out the moral dilemma between the wrongness of lying compared to the goodness of the outcome. I do not see cases where that apply to laziness to extend your parallel in this rare case, however... Any idea ?
Nov 28 2012: the parallel certainly has limitations. however, i would claim that the first two is not that simple as you say.
action vs inaction. it is just an apparent difference, not a real one. inaction is action. we choose between two possible paths.
deliberate vs unintentional: that is partially true, but many lies are also unintentional, in the sense that they come automatically, not after conscious consideration.
but i agree that lie can be aimed to improve things (although the actual gain is questionable), while laziness can not.Nov 27 2012: I don't believe that there is one unifying reality or truth. I believe in motives that make us create beliefs.
So I always keep things to myself unless someone is wondering or asking me to share my point of view, a.k.a. reality. They would have the motivation to modify their realities since it is not fitting their experience. Everyone is right. Everything is true. There is ALWAYS a way to justify things and to see things from others perspectives.Nov 27 2012: TRUTH is of the highest importance. If one does not have the courage or wisdom to express truth, silence is an acceptable alternative, even though it may slow up the progress of the sender and receiver in accomplishing their positive goals. Truth is powerful. When everyone expresses truth as they know it at the moment of expression, we will all be living happily ever after. Soon, maybe. Anything positive is possible. We all have choice about what to focus on. Some people associate "truth" with negativity, which, in itself demonstrates the negativity of those who believe that. Truth is neutral. We choose what we focus on, what we express. We have the power and freedom to focus on and express positive. May as well. A stream of positive consequences flows.......
Nov 27 2012: 'Some people associate "truth" with negativity, which, in itself demonstrates the negativity of those who believe that.'
That argument seems quite flawed to me : you claim that "Truth is neutral", so associating "truth" to positivity is as flawed as associating it with negativity. Why should one opinion be better than the other ? You could apply the same positive/negative people distinction based on any belief then.
And "Honesty" is not "Truth". Truth is not only expressed by facts : our perception is involved, our communication too, or way to represent the world... The sentence "Green is a beautiful color" is true for some people and false for other.
Nov 28 2012: Good morning, Colleen. Jean-Charles, Each person knows when they express something, if they are expressing the truth as they perceive it and it takes extra energy to lie, so they know when they are intentionally expressing lies. I repeat: truth is neutral. Which truth you choose to express is your choice. If you choose positive truths or choose to focus on negative, that is your choice. It has nothing to do with truth. The point is, people know within themselves when they are expressing truth or lies. We grew up in a society (e.g., religions) that attempt to control human behavior with negativity, e.g., do what I tell you to do or God will getcha and hurt you. This is the brainwashing we must reverse. WE CHOOSE WHAT WE FOCUS ON. Let's focus on positive. This is a separate point from expressing truth, except that I am always amazed at how many people associate the concept of truth with negative expressions, e.g., your dress is ugly, thinking they are being honest. Silence is always an option. TRUTH expression makes society more efficient and ultrimately more positive, if our fellow Earthlings make a conscious choice to focus on posiitive. Sorry I confused you. By the way, for that person, "green is a beautiful color" so that person is expressing a truth as they behold it at the moment of expression.
Nov 28 2012: RHONA! YOU CAUGHT ME PEEKING IN!!! I just noticed that you added my name...LOL!
I agree....agree....agree...people KNOW when they are expressing a lie...it takes extra energy and stress to lie...truth is neutral...how we interpret the information may take it out of the "neutral" state....which truth we express is a choice...we choose what we focus on...silence is always an option...all very well said my friend!
Luke Hobbs
Nov 27 2012: Isn't it more about HOW you tell the truth, rather than actually telling it? Also, in terms of things like Wikileaks, I look at telling the truth over such matters to be the same thing as a person who becomes ill through the initial stages of detoxing: if the world were to start tactfully telling the truth, wouldn't the world go into chaos for a period but then calm down as the initial results of turth-telling start to settle? Imagine how the world would be in 50 years time if we all started being truthful now. I would imagine the first X years would be very hard, but eventually start to calm and harmonize.
- +1
I have always felt that all lying does is defer the pain caused by the truth, and simply prolongs the illness. Telling the truth is initially hard but with much better long-term results.
Kareem Fahim
Nov 26 2012: "Actions depend upon their intentions" -Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)Nov 25 2012: And here is a TED talk by Dan Ariely sharing experimental data that we all find it acceptable to distort the truth under certain circumstances. What's more interesting is that our attitude to cheating depends on the "color of T-shirt we are wearing" or, rather, whether we perceive the cheater as belonging to our social group or as an "outsider".
- +1
Nov 26 2012: Dan Ariely is very good at pointing such irrationnal behaviour. I guess we are all lying to ourself, especially when pretending to not lying... I adde this talk to the ones relatedd to this conversation.Nov 25 2012: Steven Pinker had this talk at Psi Chi society titled "Sometimes, indirect speech is the most direct course of action"
And here is an animated version of it which is more fun to watch:
It's not exactly about lying. He speaks of why we "dress" our speech in euphemisms, explaining it by the type of social relationship which we try to maintain, namely, communality, reciprocity, or dominance, according to a theory by anthropologist Alan Fiske.Nov 25 2012: Honesty is above all the best choice; however I seem to be confused when telling the truth can we not deny the question with an honest response. If someone asks a question are we compelled to answer or are we not allowed to decline. The goal is to be straight forward with someone to why information cannot be revealed. There is no plausible reason to lie and the fact remains that there never has been a good time to lie. Reveal the truth when appropriate and decline to answer questions when inappropriate.
Bobby Bakshi
Nov 25 2012: Yes great points Colleen. That tangled web is such a complex one and becomes societal doesn't it? That's where moral issues do come up and get "tangled" with this simple truth (sorry, couldn't resist it)! Every religion is adament on being the only truth. Sad state that is Yoda says.
- +1
Everything does circle back to choice as well doesn't it? The question is how many recognize the cost of their choices when they start to weave that web, consciously or not.
Nov 25 2012: Thanks Bobby....good points from you as well:>)
We (humans) can indeed create a very tangled web, which in my perception, simply complicates our lives, and also, as you say, becomes societal. We observe right here on this thread, that people would very much like to justify lying. What if we need to protect someone? What if we need to spare someone's feelings? etc. etc.? Then people declare that there are "little white lies", and BIG lies.....who decides? Who chooses what lies are ok, and which are not ok? So, people build this very complex "web". How about simply NOT lying? I agree with Yoda..."sad state"!
I agree Bobby, that it all comes back to "choice"...what choice do we make as individuals? If an individual is already contemplating a little lie, big lie, lie to protect someone, or spare feelings, they have already accepted the idea that lying of some sort is ok. It is not a very big leap from there to justify ALL lies when/if one is not conscious of the behavior and justification. If one already believes that lying is ok in certain circumstances, we can simply mold the situation in our mind to justify the lie.....yes?
That is how we complicate our own lives because we begin lying to ourselves to justify the outword manifestation of the lie....as you say...it circles back.
I do not lie, and I've gotten feedback my whole life that I walk my talk, which feels absolutely wonderful, and knowing that contributes to the contentment in my life. I really don't understand why anyone would want to create the chaos and discontent which lies create in one's life experience.Nov 24 2012: It is like a shovel; you can dig a hole or you can smash someone's head. So truth in the hands of liars becomes dangerous, but in the hands of the honest it becomes some kind of enlightment, so I think the motivation behind it is very important. People should be aware of the fact that the truth hurts, but that lies are even more painfull when they come out. If the quest for truth is your absolute motivation, then you are part of a very small group, as most people consider the absolute truth as something impossible - yes, almost as being utopic. But we should question ourselves and all the others, looking deep into the eyes - and then we should be honest - Am I a liar? Is this other a liar? And why is someone lying? Is it to protect? To prevent? Or is it lying for selfish purposes?
To me there are actually two kinds of people; the ones who want to rule theirselves and the ones who want to rule others... But if you want to rule yourself then you normally prefer the truth, as dominating others is mostly based on lies.
So it is like the clash between morality and politics, but hey, who wants to hear the truth from a politician anyway?
A good example of an honest being is the Greek philosopher Diogenes (from Sinope), he was a cynic but he just said his words. I think we all should be more like him. In a truly transparant world based on truth and justice, lies wouldn't even be necessary; so the fact that we all seem to need lies, it just proves how corrupted this society actually is.
So, even as someone who's way too honest for his own good I should say 'No, there are no limits!' And even if the truth is dangerous, I still prefer this above all the lies - as lies are just short termed certainties for people who live in fear.
Nov 24 2012: As a child I was punished for telling the truth, when the honest answer to my father's questions was not what he wanted to hear (e.g. "yes, I spilled the paint on the carpet."). So I learned to lie to protect myself from punishment. As an adult I would lie to others to avoid conflict. Many years later, I overcame this fearful compulsion and now I live life like an open book, like you, sometimes too honest for my own good.
To the original question of 'How should we manage the decision to disclose (or not) such information?' the point has to be made that often we manage the decision whether or not to tell the truth based on the degree of receptivity we expect to receive from society. American culture is ever ready to persecute people who divulge difficult truth, which turns important information into a scarce commodity sometimes. Bill Clinton got himself impeached by lying about an affair he had with Monica Lewinsky, a choice that was surely induced by fear of social punishment had he told the truth. That someone in his position (US President) would fear the judgment of the American People that much is, to me, a reflection of our intolerance of harsh realities.
I agree this society has become corrupted. People hide the truth and go to extreme lengths in the wake of great emotion to keep from talking about what is actually going on between us sometimes. Massive acts of corruption, betrayal and even treason have and will continue to take place. America needs to develop a means of rewarding the unsolicited declaration of difficult truth by reducing the social persecution we have come to expect. This would seem to have to begin with the media. Thereafter, the movement would naturally evolve into electing to powerful office those individuals who can dispassionately blurt out the truth. Such people tend to have an inner drive to live an honest life, which may or may not desribe the typical politician America recognizes as a qualified candidate today.
Nov 24 2012: I completely agree on your point of view, but as I am not an American (-> I live in Belgium) I think that it is not to me to speak about matters like this. But about Bill Clinton; the same once happened to Francois Mitterand (former French president) and he just replied with 'et alors?' ('so what?').
And this, to me, also proves the greatness of this man - even while I don't know that much about him. So I think this intolerance for harsh realities can be mellowed, just by showing yourself and truth as it really is, that most people will think like; 'ah, what the hell? At least the man is real' as it is sometimes refreshing to meet people who have this honest 'et alors'- attitude. But I also know that this might depend on the openness that various societies strive for - because there are certain differences between countries and cultures that make 'truths' acceptable, or less acceptable.
But anyway, it was a pleasure to read your reply! Truth is all that really matters!Nov 24 2012: I think these choices must be/are made subcounceously, based on the knowledge that not all things are best said (Now that is something completely different to lying though, and some people -want- others hurt or dead). I guess the alpha factor in this task must be knowledge.
That should indicate we should improve knowledge on how information can, at worst, hurt or kill people (though the information never had the ability to kill.. hmmmmm..Perhaps the people doing the killing are the real problem, not the information about political choices from the past../the one cheating on his wife is guilty, not the one telling his wife what he did..)
Maybe we should have a bit more focus on moral and ethics from primary school and all the way to the workplace.. (and maybe, just maybe lots of parents are personally responsible for morally questionable attitudes from their children.
We should learn to controll our moral aspect in our brain, and how to manipulate it according to the situations we are in in a better way than our newbee methods of today. Thats the only way I can see people taking more responsibility on this subject.
Roy Bourque
Nov 18 2012: The commandment says "thou shalt not bear false witness". It was based on telling the truth for the moral good of all.
- +1
People lie in order to hide the truth. And mostly it isn't for the moral good. It is to protect the guilty from having to deal with consequences.
There are some lies that are harmless. There are some lies that protect the innocent. There are some lies that lead to unspeakable horrors. There is no simple answer when it comes to lies – it depends on the motive and the consequences.
I was at a retirement party. The person retiring points to me and says to his friends; "if you ever want to know the truth, just ask that guy". That's a reputation that you can't buy. And once you've lost it, you may never get it back.
Anyone who tolerates lies has no right to complain about evil because they are willing to defend it.
I have known people to overlook a lie because it was for the common good that it was told. I can accept that. But I can't accept a lie that is a deliberate deception to avoid having to face the truth. Such lies only get bigger with time.
Nov 18 2012: Re: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor"
I always wondered if this is really a commandment against lying in general. It does not say so. It specifically speaks about lying to harm another person.
And it raises another question: is it moral to lie "for thy neighbor"?
Anton Chekhov said: "A good upbringing means not that you won't spill sauce on the tablecloth, but that you won't notice it when someone else does." Is it always prudent to "speak the truth"?
Nov 18 2012: The answer to your question is who does it hurt? If it causes no harm, then there are many things that can be overlooked. In fact, if a lie prevents an injustice from being done, then it was for a good cause. A prudent man knows the difference.
Those who bear false witness against their neighbor are trying to pass the blame and have them take the fall as well. People have died because the truth was kept silent. It has to do with righteousness, not whether or not you broke the commandment. It was never black and white to the spiritual leader.Nov 16 2012: Truth and lying are part of the same boat. Yin and yang if you will. You can't know one without the other. I believe that everything has limits, and nothing is absolute. Morals aside, sometimes we have to life, and sometimes we have to tell the truth. That's why you've never find a completely honest man.


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I really found the PCRM vegetarian starter kit to be helpful when planning my families' meals. But there are still a few things that I need clarification on with respect to the food chart for children so that I feel I have all the information I need to raise thriving Vegan children.
The chart indicates three servings of nondairy milk daily. Does it matter what type of nondairy milk I serve? I've read some conflicting advice that says that only soy has enough protein in it to be suitable for young toddlers and children. However, while I plan on including soy in our diet once in the awhile in the form of tofu, tempeh, endaname or some soy milk, I am not ok with giving my toddler three cups of soy milk a day. So if I choose to give him hemp milk, oat milk or almond milk will he be missing out on nutrients?
Also, it would help if it was clarified why it is recommended that kids get three servings of plant milk so that I could look for alternatives. Is it because these plant milks are fortified? Could I replace a serving of plant milk with a serving of coconut yogurt or the occasional soy yogurt for instance? What alternatives to plant milk could I use?
Lastly, from everything I have been taught, it is important for babies and toddlers until the age of two receive adequate amounts of fat in their diet and yet this isn't covered in the food guide. Would ensuring my son get either some nut butters, avocado and olives daily along with Omega 3s from ground flax or chia seeds be sufficient? I also realize that if I give him hemp milk, he would be getting fat and omega 3s. So I'm curious why fats and young children weren't covered?
I appreciate the help on this matter. Thanks.
The servings are just suggestions for ways to meet nutrient needs. Like with adults, there is no one way to get there, so don't feel locked into these ideas.
The plant milk suggestion is more about getting the calcium in an easy package. Any plant milk that is enriched with calcium will do the same job, approximately 300 mg of calcium per serving with the same absorbability of cow's milk (about 30%).
Protein is easily met with adequate calorie intake. For kids younger than 14, the recommendation is 0.95 grams protein/kg. This is only slightly more PER kg than adults (at of course fewer kilograms), and remember, we already consume about twice what we need. To put in perspective, a 50 pound child will get all the protein s/he needs for the day with 1/2 cup of lentils, one veggie burger, and 4 oz of soy milk. And of course with servings of other vegetables and grains, you are going to get a lot more by the end of the day.
Also like adults, kids only need to consume the essential fats, omega-3s and 6s. The 6s will be easy to get, so let's talk about omega-3s. Needs are small, so we're going to talk about milligrams instead of grams:
7-12 months: 500 mg/day1-3 years: 700 mg/day4-8 years: 900 mg/day9-13 years: 1000 mg (girls); 1200 mg (boys)
For perspective, 1 ounce of walnuts has 2600 mg of omega-3s, and 1 tablespoon of flax seed meal has 1200 mg of omega-3s.
There is no evidence that a low-fat diet is bad for kids, but more healthful fat sources as you mentioned are encouraged in the government recommendations. Because most kids are not battling many of the health issues adults are battling, I think this is fine.
Susan Levin, MS, RDPCRM Director of Nutrition Education
Hi Nat4crim
I have a child under 2 so I wanted to comment on this post. Please keep in mind this is just my interpretation on everything I've read so it may or may not work for you.
Like Susan said, I don't think protein is the real issue here--I think the main issue is that children under 2 (and sometimes older) have small stomachs and you can easily fill them up with too much fiber.
I think fat is essential for young children because it is a concentrated source of calories. Breast milk contains plenty of fat but many mothers do not or cannot breastfeed their toddlers up until age 2. (In traditional societies where low-fat plant based diets are followed most mothers would breastfeed their child much longer than in the West.) If you're not breastfeeding, and not using cows milk, you should definitely make sure your toddler is getting calcium and fat--if the plant milk your LO drinks is low in fat then add some fat to the meal as avocado, coconut, nut butters, a drizzling of olive oil, etc. If it's high in fat but low in protein then add some beans or legumes.
I think the recommendation for 3 glasses of milk a way is an easy way for nutritionists and doctors to check several boxes at once. But as long as you make sure you are providing protein, fats and calcium I don't see why they all have to be contained in the same food. Maybe you could take a copy of the power plate and add in the categories "fat" and "calcium" on the side to remind you to include sources for those nutrients daily.
Oh... I see that Susan has written "there is no evidence that a low-fat diet is bad for children". I wonder if this applies to under 2's? I would be really interested whether there have been any studies on children age 1-2 and low fat diets. It is really hard to go against mainstream recommendations without thoroughly doing the research.
Good point. I was referencing studies within "dietary guidelines" age groups, so older than two. I think you are thinking right about breast fed age children. Whatever mimics mother's milk is probably about as perfect as you are going to get for that age group.
A lot of what was said here makes sense. I kind of got hung up on the 3 servings of plant milk because when you do go against the mainstream it be stressful at first, especially when it involves the health of your children. I also don't think my son's pediatrician would be well informed on vegan diets.
As it stands, I am not comfortable with such a low fat approach for a child under 2. I believe that fat is essential. And I also think that there is room for healthy fats like avocado and nuts for children who are eating a healthy plant based diet. Heck I think there is room for some for adults in moderation if you have no health issues. So I guess as long as I provide 1 tsp of ground flax for Omega 3s and a source of healthy fat like avocado daily that aspect should be covered.
The protein bit was the confusing aspect because of what I read in another book stating that children need more protein then is provided by legumes. But I think I'll just trust that if I follow the food guides recommendation for legume servings daily they should be fine, especially considering that my 3.5 year has a big appetite and consumes nut butters. I could always make quinoa for breakfast sometimes.
So then that just leaves me with calcium requirement? If I stick to just one cup of fortified plant milk a day along with whatever is included in their cereal or oatmeal, would that be enough calcium? I aim to get some dark greens in their diet daily and prefer almond butter to others nut spreads. I know you can use fortified fruit juice but I've never been one to provide juice to my family and now I'm wondering if I have to start for the calcium? In the past I didn't worry about calcium because I thought I had it covered with cow's milk, cheese and yogurt.
Personally I would decide whether to bring up your children totally vegan based on your personal ethics and whether your family is on board with it. I try to teach my kids about healthy eating as well as the ethical aspects of a plant based diet but I also let them choose from whatever is available when we are out. Health-wise I don't worry about them having a lack of something because they do get a little meat here and there when we go out or when dh cooks. If they were totally vegan I think I wouldn't worry about that, either, as long as they seemed healthy.
At the moment they are too young for any sort of discussion on the ethical aspects of not eating animal products. I just told DD we don't eat it to keep the animals happy and she's seemed to have accepted it.
My husband is on board and so our family will eat Vegan. I'm sure there will be some challenges along the way with social situations like birthday parties and school and I've been thinking on how I'd like to approach this. In the grand scheme of things I don't think it would be the end of the world if they had a piece of cake that had butter and eggs in it because its so infrequent. But, I'm wondering whether that would make them feel ill?
Do your kids get tummy aches from the occasional dairy or meat product?
I've also decided to provide a multivitamin daily to make sure they are getting everything they need.
Nat4crim, that's great that you're family is in agreement about eating vegan! I wish I could get DH on board.. but it has to be his decision. I can only dream about my family going totally vegan... In answer to your question about tummy ache... no, my kids don't seem to have any problems from eating less healthy food occasionally. I also choose from what is available while out and go for the most plant-based option available, which might include some dairy, egg or a small amount of meat. I don't have any problems with digestion; to the contrary I have had my allergies go away on this healthier diet and a small amount of animal products do not cause them to come back.
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Cumbrian men charged after large-scale brawl
Last updated at 11:07, Saturday, 05 May 2012
Two men have been charged with assault after a large-scale brawl in Maryport.
Barry John Woolf, 29, from Peter Street, Workington, has been charged with assaulting an 18-year-old man. Dylan Robertson, 18, from Bounty Avenue, Maryport, was charged with assaulting a 29-year-old Workington man.
Both were bailed to appear in court in Workington on May 18.
The charges come after police were called to a disturbance on Wallace Lane in Maryport last month in which a man suffered serious injuries.
First published at 08:58, Saturday, 05 May 2012
Published by http://www.newsandstar.co.uk
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Book your room at Makena Surf - Destination Resorts Hawaii
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Get an overview of this hotelRetreat to the peace and serenity of Makena in this secluded beachfront resort in Pa'ipu Beach, Maui.
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We carefully hand-picked this hotel based on its dedication to service and excellent guest reviews.
Expedia +gold members receive free room upgrades and +gold and +silver members get other perks upon availability at check-in.See details
Set in south Maui
Located along a half-mile stretch of Pa'ipu Beach near La Perouse Bay, Makena Surf is a fantastic choice for a secluded Hawaii beachfront vacation, with 90 holes of championship golf at the nearby Wailea and Makena Golf Courses.
Two swimming pools with whirlpool spas
Hibiscus flowers and fragrant plumeria trees surround two spa tubs and barbecue areas. Makena Surf also features four tennis courts and an ancient Hawaiian heiau.
Ocean views for all
Makena Surf's oceanfront vacation condos open onto a private lanai with spectacular views of the sunset or whale watching in the winter. Each privately-owned condo features a fully-equipped kitchen, spacious living/dining area, and a washer/dryer.Information missing or incorrect? Tell us!
Hotel Amenities
Hotel Amenities
This beachfront resort features 2 swimming pools, 2 whirlpool spas, 4 tennis courts, and 90 holes of championship golf at the nearby Wailea and Makena Golf Courses.
The Concierge Desk is staffed with knowledgeable agents ready to assist with Maui activities, tours, luau reservations, private chefs, grocery services, as well as arrange in-room spa treatments at Makena Surf or make appointments for you at one of the many nearby luxury spas.
- Free self parking
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- On private beach
- Number of outdoor pools - 2
- Number of spa tubs - 2
- Spa tub
- Outdoor tennis courts 4
- Pool umbrellas
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- Number of buildings/towers - 6
- Number of floors - 3
- Total number of rooms - 105
- Year Built 1983
Family Friendly Amenities
- Kitchen
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- Separate dining area
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Available in all rooms: Free WiFi
Available in some public areas: Free WiFi
Free self parking
Room Amenities
- Kitchen
- Free WiFi
- Second bathroom
- Lanai
- Separate dining area
- Separate living room
- Television
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- DVD player
- Full-sized refrigerator/freezer
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- In-room massage available
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- Access via exterior corridors
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- Individually decorated
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Where to Eat
The hotel does not have its own restaurant, but there are several dining options within a five minutes' drive of Makena Surf including celebrity chef restaurant.
Nearby restaurants:
Alan Wong's
Bev Gannon's
Masaharu Morimoto's
Tommy Bahama
Ruth's Chris Steak House
Nearby Things to Do
Grab your snorkel and step right out into pristine waters where you'll see an abundance of colorful fish and honu (Hawaiian green sea turtles) who make their home along the lava fingers at the edges of Pa'ipu Beach. Kayak rentals, including glass-bottom kayaks, provide an alternative to those who prefer to see these beautiful creatures without getting wet. Stand-up paddle boarding and surf lessons are available nearby, as well as sunset dinner cruises, snorkel and scuba excursions, whale watching boats, and more. On shore, enjoy world-class golf at several Wailea or Makena courses, on-site tennis where you can play at night under the lights, or visit nearby parks with walking/jogging paths, an oceanfront skating rink, sand volleyball, and barbecue pavilions.
The recreational activities listed below are available either on-site or near the hotel; fees may apply.
- Kayaking nearby
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- Golfing nearby
- Snorkeling nearby
- Bicycle rentals nearby
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- Hiking/biking trails nearby
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- Golf lessons available nearby
- Scuba diving nearby
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To make requests for specific accessibility needs, complete the "Special or Accessibility Requests" section of "Trip Preferences" when you book your hotel.
- Accessible parking
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Minimum check-in age is 21
Check-in time ends at 9 PM
Check-in time starts at 3 PM
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Check-out time is 11 AM
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Children and extra beds
- Children are welcome.
- Kids stay free! Children under 12 years old stay free when using existing bedding.
- Rollaway/extra beds are available for USD 20 per night.
- Cribs (infant beds) are available for USD 20 per night.
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Extra-person charges may apply and vary depending on hotel policy.
Government-issued photo identification and a credit card are required at check-in for incidental charges.
Special requests are subject to availability upon check-in and may incur additional charges. Special requests cannot be guaranteed.
No elevators
Noise-free rooms not guaranteed
- Crib (infant bed) fee: USD 20 per night
- Rollaway bed fee: USD 20 per night
We should mention
Children 12 years old and younger stay free when occupying the parent or guardian's room, using existing bedding.
Free Car Rental Offer
Book a minimum 3-night stay in a 2- or 3-Bedroom accommodation for travel April 5 - December 19, 2015 and receive a complimentary rental of 1 compact car during your stay.
Must book a 2 Bedroom Condo at least 7 days in advance of arrival to receive benefit. 3-night minimum stay required. Offer is not valid with any other rate plan or promotions. Guests must contact the property at least 7 days prior to arrival to provide flight information and to request the type of car desired (subject to availability). The property can be reached using the information on the reservation confirmation received after booking. Offer is for rental rate of car only. Taxes, surcharge, insurance, and other car rental fees apply and will be collected directly from the car rental company. Offer is not valid with groups/conventions and may not be combined with other promotional offers. No refunds for any unused portion of offer. Other restrictions may apply.
Resort Credit Offer for Dining and Spa
Book a stay in any room type or rate plan any time for travel any time, and receive USD 155 in resort credit gift cards, valid at the following dining and spa outlets:
- USD 20 dinner gift card at Four Season's Duo Steak and Seafood Restaurant
- USD 25 at Fairmont Kea Lani's Ko Restaurant
- USD 20 at Ruth's Chris Steak House
- USD 20 at Tommy Bahama Restaurant
- USD 20 spa credit at Spa at Four Seasons Wailea
- USD 25 at Willow Stream Spa at Fairmont Kea Lani
- USD 25 at Spa Grande at the Grand Wailea


text:
Free download software » Search
Search Results For:
play store baixaqui
Sponsored High Speed Downloads
#1 ThemeForest - Ezime Online Store Newsletter
25-09-2010, 11:10
Ezime Online Store Newsletter 5 Different Layout
Ezime Online Store is a premiere designed and built html email template for online business.
#2 DeskSpace v18.104.22.168
17-09-2010, 13:58
DeskSpace is a virtual desktop manager that will bring to your Windows desktop the fashionable cube effect. Don't have enough space to fit all your icons and windows on a single desktop? DeskSpace gives you more room to store everything you need for your day-to-day work and play. DeskSpace eliminates desktop clutter by giving you the ability to store your windows and desktop icons across multiple desktops.
#3 Intuit Quickbooks Point of Sales (POS) 9.0 Multi Store
18-07-2010, 13:00
Intuit Quickbooks Point of Sales (POS) 9.0 Multi Store | 486MB
#4 The Sims 3 Store Items as of September 2011 (Full Rip/2011)
8-09-2011, 07:23
The Sims 3 Store Items as of September 2011 (Full Rip/2011)
English | PC | Developer: The Sims Studio | 1.84 GB
Genre: Simulation
#5 Otaku Software DeskSpace v1.5.8.Retail-TCi
19-07-2010, 05:45
DeskSpace (formerly Yod m 3D) is a virtual desktop manager that features a 3d cube effect workspace changer. Tci released new & updated version.
DeskSpace is a virtual desktop manager that will bring to your Windows desktop the fashionable cube effect. DeskSpace significantly increases your desktop space, allowing you to work and play on multiple desktops. With DeskSpace you can work with multiple desktops in 3D, and quickly switch between desktops using the mouse and keyboard. Don t have enough space to fit all your icons and windows on a single desktop? DeskSpace gives you more room to store everything you need for your day-to-day work and play. DeskSpace eliminates desktop clutter by giving you the ability to store your windows and desktop icons across multiple desktops.
* Work and play on multiple desktops.
* Display multiple desktops in stunning 3D.
* Quickly switch between desktops using the mouse and keyboard.
* Drag windows between desktops by moving them to the edges of the screen.
* Configure the hot keys and mouse buttons used to switch between desktops, and how DeskSpace displays and manages desktop.
* Display the DeskSpace desktop cube on up to 9 monitors.
Release name: Otaku.Software.DeskSpace.v1.5.8.Retail-TCi
Size: 17.2 mb
#6 The Sims 3 Store July 2010
12-07-2010, 06:55
English | PC | Developer: The Sims Studio | 898 MB
Genre: Strategy
#7 Intuit Quickbooks Point of Sales (POS) 9.0 Multi Store
17-07-2010, 13:31
Intuit Quickbooks Point of Sales (POS) 9.0 Multi Storev | 486MB
Helps Increase Sales with Easy Inventory and Store Management. Guaranteed. QuickBooks Point of Sale software gives you the inventory and sales tools to help run your store more profitably along with customer management features to keep customers coming back.
#8 eMagicOne Store Manager for Magento Pro 2.23.2 Build 1264
4-06-2015, 14:41
eMagicOne Store Manager for Magento Pro 2.23.2 Build 1264 | 114.1 MB
Store Manager is a Windows-based application, designed and created to greatly ease the online management of one, or multiple, Magento e-commerce stores. Its chief purpose is to provide efficient, graphical, low level access and manipulation of store data, providing easy automation of repetitive, routine tasks, and greatly simplified operational restructuring and ongoing maintenance.
Basic Features
-Product and Category management (Multi Store logic supported)
#9 iSedora Media Server 1.7.5
18-12-2010, 10:32
iSedora Media Server 1.7.5 | 42.67 MB
iSedora media server streams your videos, music and photos over home network to any UPnP / DLNA compatible media devices like TVs or consoles.
iSedora is designed to easily play your digital media movies, broadcast recordings, music albums, photos, podcasts, audiobooks and the others on TV or any DLNA compatible device. Using iSedora is simple: just install it, point out where you store the media and forget about it. No more effort is required to access the media from anywhere in your house: simply turn a TV on and select what you want to play by a remote control.
#10 WordPress 2.9 E-Commerce
14-08-2010, 03:48
WordPress 2.9 E-Commerce
Packtpub | English | March 2010 | ISBN : 1847198503 | 284 Pages | PDF | 6 Mb
WordPress is easily one of the hottest platforms for building blogs and general web sites. With the addition of the WP e-Commerce plug-in, it's also a competent platform for easily creating and running an online store, capable of selling physical items as well as services and digital downloads. WordPress with e-Commerce offers every feature that a seller and a customer may need. You can build an online store that makes it easier for the customers to find and buy products.
#11 Mac OS X v10.6.6 Update Combo
11-01-2011, 15:04
Mac OS X v10.6.6 Update Combo | 1 GB
The Mac OS X 10.6.6 Update is recommended for all users running Mac OS X Snow Leopard and includes general operating system fixes that enhance the stability, compatibility, and security of your Mac. It also includes the Mac App Store, the best way to discover and buy new apps for your Mac. The Mac App Store, a new application you'll find in the Dock, includes the following features:
#12 How to Do Everything iPad
29-08-2010, 05:34
How to Do Everything iPad
McGraw-Hill Osborne Media | 2010 | ISBN: 0071748695, 0071748709 | 332 pages | PDF | 10,1 MB
Tap into every feature of your iPad!
Get the most out of the revolutionary iPad with help from this easy-to-follow guide. Covering both the Wi-Fi only and Wi-Fi + 3G models, How to Do Everything: iPad shows you how to quickly master the basics, such as customizing your iPad, using the Multi-Touch screen, accessing the Internet through wireless and cellular connections, syncing, and backing up your data. Learn to use Mail, Safari, iBooks, iTunes, Maps, the App Store, and much more. View photos and video, create a slideshow, watch movies, use GPS, and play games. If you're looking for a book as cutting-edge and streamlined as the iPad itself, you found it!
#13 Good Charlotte - Cardiology (2010)
21-10-2010, 09:27
Good Charlotte - Cardiology (2010)
Label: Capitol | MP3 | 320 Kbps 44.1 KHz | 15 Tracks | 107 MB
Genre : Punk
Store Date: 2 November 2010
#14 Apple iTunes v10.0.0.68 (x32/x64) + MacOSX
10-09-2010, 09:56
Apple iTunes v10.0.0.68 (x32\x64) + MacOSX | 225 MB
iTunes is an audio player for playing and organizing digital music files, and purchasing digital music files in the FairPlay digital rights management format. The iTunes Music Store is the component of iTunes through which users can purchase digital music files from within iTunes.
Enhanced Accessibility
#15 Windows Media Player 12 Beta 1 [30.73 MB]
21-01-2011, 02:19
Windows Media Player 12 Beta 1 | 30.73 MB
Windows Media Player 12 spanish for Windows still in beta testing but works well and offers great new ways to store and enjoy all your music, video, pictures, and recorded TV. Play it, view it, and sync it to a portable device for enjoying on the go or even share with devices around your homeall from one place. Simplicity In Design-Bring a whole new look to your digital entertainment. More of the Music You Love-Breathe new life into your digital music experience.All Your Entertainment in One Place-Store and enjoy all of your music, video, pictures, and recorded TV.Enjoy Everywhere-Stay connected with your music, video, and pictures no matter where you are. Check out the new Media Sharing feature.Supported File Formats: asf,wma,wmv,wm,asx, wax,wvx,wmx,wpl,dvr-ms, wmd, avi,mpeg,mpg, 1v,mp3,mp2,mpa,m3u, mid,midi, rmi, aif, aifc,aiff, au,snd,wav,cda,ivf,mov,qt. Compatible with Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows 2000, Windows XP Home/Pro, Windows Vista, Windows 7
#16 Good Charlotte - Cardiology (2010)
20-10-2010, 08:50
Good Charlotte - Cardiology (2010)
Label: Capitol | MP3 | 214 Kbps Avg 44.1 KHz | 15 Tracks | 73 MB
Genre : Punk
Store Date: 2 November 2010
#17 GunGirl 2 v1.0.2 (ENG/2010)
13-08-2010, 05:21
GunGirl 2 v1.0.2 (ENG/2010)
English | PC | Developer: Paul Schneider | 118 Мb
Genre: Arcade
The second part of the shooter platformer GunGirl. As in the first part, we play for the girl GunGirl or her best friend GunDude against the walking dead. Explore the great world full of zombies and other monsters. Collect keys to open locked doors, talk to survivors to find out hidden secrets. Save up bonuses for the store where you can buy weapons, ammo, first aid kits
#18 Absolute Beginner's Guide to Tablet PCs
29-08-2010, 07:25
Absolute Beginner's Guide to Tablet PCs
Que | ISBN: 0789730499 | December 4, 2003 | PDF | 408 pages | 12 Mb
Whether you use your Tablet PC for work or play, this easy to follow guide gets you going quickly! Using real world scenarios that apply to teachers, students, business professionals, medical professionals, and more, Absolute Beginner's Guide to Tablet PCs shows you how to put Tablet PCs to use in real life. The book shows you the basics for getting your Tablet PCs up and running, then kicks it into high gear and shows you how to put your newfound palmtop power to use! You will also learn how to use Microsoft's new OneNote application to take, store, sort, and share notes with other users.


text:
The best rock bands of the last forty years
Well Led Zeppelin influenced so many bands of today...they are def #1 in my book....
Replies to This Posting
Re: The best rock bands of the last forty years
Okay, this should be interesting.
The OP chose the first. Here are my editions to this certainly definitive, probably should be published, list:
Aerosmith - decades and decades of good music
Metallica - They need an explanation?
Nirvana - like Metallica, they defined a genre for the masses
Heart - brought the female voice to rock
KoRn - took an amalgam of sound and expressed the hurt of Generation X and Y
I stopped at 5. I can't wait to see what others add.
Re: The best rock bands of the last forty years
Let's try this again. :-)
Re: The best rock bands of the last forty years
This is good:
Re: The best rock bands of the last forty years
The Beatles
Jimi Hendrix
Frank Zappa
Led Zeppelin
The Who
Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Thin Lizzy
The Beach Boys
Living Color
King's X
White stripes
Alice n chains
THe last shadow Puppets
The White Stripes
qUEENS OF THe stone age
Fear and The Nervous System
Marissa Nadler
Re: The best rock bands of the last forty years
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Links: Australian Glass and the Pacific Northwest at Museum of Glass
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The Shape of Things by Neil Labute at Dukesbay Theater
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NCM Fathom and CARE, with the support of Delta Air Lines, Meredith Corporation and Walmart, are partnering on a one night event inspired by stories from the New York Times bestseller Half the Sky by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalists Nicholas Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn. Celebrate International Women's Day and be inspired to help women and girls everywhere turn oppression into opportunity. Featuring musical performances, celebrity commentary and the world premiere of Woineshet, a short film by Academy Award® winner Marisa Tomei and Lisa Leone. Also with appearances from, India.Arie, Maria Bello, Diane Birch, Michael Franti, Dr. Helene Gayle, Angelique Kidjo, Nicholas Kristof, Marisa Tomei, Sarah, Duchess of York and others. Experience Half the Sky on March 4, 2010 at 7:30 pm (local time) in select movie theatres across the country. Talent subject to change.
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We have a Blog! So why not check out our most recent post all about the work we carried out on a Volkswagen CamperVan with A.W. Leisure
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Stighlorgan talks tech
Style Week on Pocket-lint would, of course, be nothing at all if we didn't ask the opinions of those who really know what style is all about. So, as part of our five days of fun, we got hold of five top UK-based fashion designers to talk to us about what they see in their gadgets and what they're after when searching to buy some great looking technology.
So far we've heard from Orla Kiely, Fred Butler, Eley Kishimoto and Roksanda Ilnicic but today is the turn of the brand that is Stighlorgan. Started up by a group of creative Irish folk living in Blighty, Stighlorgan is a modern men's accessory label with its roots and inspirations firmly footed in soils of the old country.
Fresh onto the fashion scene, the designers are currently working on their third collection after rave reviews of their bags, belts and hats for Autumn/Winter 2011 among which Pocket-lint likes the Roban rucksack and Driscoll bag. The designers of Stighlorgan were kind enough to spare us the time to chat about what they like and don't like in technology design.
1. What, for you, makes a beautiful gadget or piece of consumer technology?
Simplicity and quality. Simple lines are defined by quality craftsmanship. Dieter Rams and the work he did for Braun redefined simplicity in the 1960s. He used expressions such as 'function over form' to guide the way he styled things. But this in itself was an incredibly particular style. Many, including Apple, continue to be heavily inspired by this era of Braun products and we think it has led people towards understanding how to enjoy the simple shape of a machine in its most honest form.
2. Are there any common errors that you see tech companies making when designing the look and feel of their products?
Over-designing & over-styling.
3. Form or function? Both are important but which has the edge for you when choosing your phones, laptops, etc and why?
Always function. It defines the form.
4. Phones, cameras and laptops have all got smaller, bigger, fatter and thinner over the years. What do you think the next trends in their style and design might be?
Functionality and usability. Now that technology is moving so fast, the way it's styled is becoming more and more defined by the technology in question. We think with everything going on in technology, people will become more comfortable if the machines are styled without demanding their own bit of attention.
5. Name the five most beautiful pieces of consumer electronics of all time in your opinion?
Braun PC 3-SV turntable, TDK 3 BASS Boombox, B&O's Beomaster 1900, Braun SM31, Naoto Fukasawa's Muji wall fan.
You can check out more of Stighlorgan's styles on the company website, pick up a few items in the Stighlorgan shop or just learn how to tie knots.
You can read more from Style Week on our Style Week homepage.
Ultra Responsive. Ultra Sleek. Ultrabook ™ - www.intel.co.uk/ultrabook
- Best looking smartphones in the world. Ever.


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Awsome fight, wonder when it'll be happening?
They'll most likley put it on the Strikeforce PPV. With Zuffa powering the marketing, add in this fight on that card with Fedor/Hendo and it could pull some good numbers.
This fight makes alot of sense, hope it all goes down without issues.