text:
- Mark Barnes
- Cleveland, OH
- United States
ASCD, International Society for Technology in Education
This conversation is closed.
Isn't it time to eliminate grades in education?
Give a student an F, she's learned nothing. Giver her an A, and what has she learned? Still nothing. Grades are subjective crutches, used by teachers because they either do not know any better, or because they are forced to give them by an archaic system.
Grades should be replaced by meaningful narrative feedback, which helps students understand what learning outcomes have or have not been mastered. Feedback also encourages learning, while grades only stifle it.
It's time for grades to be eliminated.
Closing Statement from Mark Barnes
This conversation was a remarkable experience -- one that gave me plenty to think about and to write about in my upcoming book (ROLE Reversal, ASCD 2012). I believe that many people here seem at least open to the idea of moving beyond the subjective, punitive grading system that we use today. Some still believe that grades are the only way to evaluate learning. It appears from the discussion that, in most cases, this is because they haven't been exposed to formative assessment and self-evaluation over summative testing and grades. Grades are a measuring tool, and not a very good one. The problem is not just grading but the idea that measurements are necessary in the first place. Learning should never be measured. Rather, it should be shared, discussed and evaluated openly; these discussions should be accompanied by objective feedback that guides students to other possibilities and to reflection and self-evaluation.
Upon consideration of all comments here, I remain steadfast in my belief that education needs ongoing narrative feedback. Any other system is arrogant and a mistake.
Thanks to all who participated.
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Mark Barnes
Jul 26 2011: If you have to give a grade, I like the idea of giving one like Wolf does. You are also right about parents emphasizing grades. Until parents grasp my results-only system, they often ask about grades. They are perplexed, at first, when I say, "There are no grades." Once they learn the system, all of them embrace it.
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Thanks for your insight.
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Ian Gordon
Jul 27 2011: Flexibility, sure; but when it becomes a good thing to skip classes, you're going too far. It's good you went to the library and worked on projects, but if Wolf was so good, why skip his classes? I observed a project to accommodate unruly students who'd been kicked out of school. They were now given tremendous freedom and extra help - they squandered it, and their behaviour remained atrocious. There must be respect and discipline in an organization, else just let people go their own way and don't interfere at all. Get too liberal and things get sloppy. Good that it worked for you though, but not everyone would have good home schooling or be self motivated like you were. You're right, I think, when you say we should have more types of education - perhaps you could suggest a new type as the start of another discussion ;) I bet you have some good ideas.
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Mark Barnes
Jul 27 2011: Birdia (forgive me if I misuse your name), I am in awe of you. I am often looked upon by colleagues as weak, because, like your instructor, I am far more concerned by seeing a student learn than by how she learns. I have many students who are labeled as "unruly" by other teachers, yet I have no problems with them at all. This is the essence of a Results Only Learning Environment.
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Many of my students master learning outcomes in different ways. I have had students miss weeks of school for various reasons and still do very well, because they are good at using the tools I provide outside of school. My workshop setting also allows many students to go elsewhere to study, while the remainder of the class stays and works in my room. Each student has individual needs. This is something that is missing in education globally, I think.
Thanks for your very kind words. I can't change anything by myself, though. People like you and others in this discussion will carry us into new-millennium learning.Jul 30 2011: Hello,Are you a Chinese-American?
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Jul 28 2011: I think I would have let the Birdia out of her cage ;) I guess art students are a class unto themselves: it's kind of expected that you'll be wild with creative energy and therefore be untameable. As for my degree, I did get it after missing most of my 3rd year, but I didn't get a good grade - if only grades had been abolished.
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Jul 28 2011: Well, now I seem to have rattled your cage. You seem to misunderstand me as much as I misunderstand you. I love creative people, and have not said otherwise. My comment about the cage was simply to say I would have given you the freedom you needed. Wild and untameable wasn't so serious, but meant as a tongue in cheek compliment, as in creativity that breaks through control barriers. You've added the word 'beast' quite unfairly to exaggerate your attack on my words. I don't know what the stone age has to do with this; you seem to have wanted to add something and grabbed a cliché in anger.I'm not sure what your point is actually; you've not been clear. How was Wolf visionary? The history of the Bauhaus...not familiar with this. What is the main principle you have in mind? Thanks. p.s. as for my 3rd year at uni, I wasn't so mature back then. I have different ideas now.
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Jul 28 2011: I love the debate you two are having. By the way, you and everyone here who wants change in education are my team.
Thanks for sticking with this amazing conversation.
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Jul 28 2011: the kurgan in disguise, i sense in you. :)
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Jul 29 2011: Hi Birdia. A little bickering is fun, but this could go on and on at the expense of more fruitful debate. I invite you to join me in turning over a new leaf, where we both look for the value and interest in each others comments, and let all the negativity slip away. I hope this is acceptable to you, and I look forward to hearing more of your opinions. Until next time ;) Cheers.
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Jul 28 2011: many people gave him F, but it wouldn't matter. teachers also gave him F, that's the problem. and i'm also giving him A for being sharp like a scalpel.
so you get the conversation back on track. this is the problem with grades. in school, the system decides who gets A and who gets F. in real life, it is more diverse. some give F some give A, and all between. this is how people find their place in society. the system's opinion does not count.Jul 29 2011: To eliminate the grading process from our education system implies that many other changes have taken place to render them useless - so in that respect I think it would be a good thing. But realistically speaking I think we would do well as educators to de-emphasize them as it sounds you have done ( does your school system actually allow you to eliminate them all together?!)
The fact of the matter is children need something that indicates the degree to which a teacher has been pleased with their effort and progress. There is also a developmental aspect to moving through
the grades that the grading system is cueing in on.
Then there is the matter of children who come to school with "baggage". They are so distracted
by their world in tumult that school is an afterthought at best. Giving grades might be the only thing that motivates them. Or not.
But to get back to the point of grades being necessary or not, I think they should be made meaningless by making changes like Sir Ken Robinson advocates for in education.
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Jul 29 2011: Thank you again for your excellent insight and contributions to this powerful discussion.
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Jul 30 2011: There must be TED.com moderators. I didn't delete any comments.
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Jul 30 2011: Thanks. It's always a pleasure to read your opinions.
guy guy
Aug 10 2011: Mark Barnes,
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It's nice to see your engagement with educational reform.
Education today has become a global manifestation; this would suggest that education is a strong societal determinant. I would push this further and suggest the reform cannot pertain to a given space, nor can it be applied to a select group of people. This might be evident, but what actually is the reform, is it a mere reaction to something that alludes to our pre-existing notions on education.
A "changed" human being compels; the more one changes, the more compelling reform becomes. Fortunately our society is in continual need for change. Advocating pre-existing educational systems often lead to social, cultural, and educational stagnation.
Reforming education essentially reforms society, people, and ultimately the very thought that incites change.
I recently graduated from a system unlike any elitist based systems. You might be interested to see how this and other educational systems have attempted to rethink education.
Centre for Learning, (shortened to C.F.L) is a school based in Bangalore, India
It would be interesting if you begin to compile a list of different educational systems that have relooked education and found ways to implement reform. Hopefully this helps convey to the masses that reformation is not just possible but also an emerging reality.
Change comes easier when collaborated collectively with those who hold similar values and practices.
Manush C J
Todd Smith
Aug 10 2011: I agree with your proposition that grades should be eliminated from education. In fact, however, I think that particular question, at the secondary level, has been asked and answered. I am speaking here of public education, and I would be happy to take up private preparatory education in a subsequent post.
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Grades are already gone.
At no time in the last decade of teaching high school and middle school has a single administrator ever once asked me about the grades students receive in my classes. For example, "Mr. Smith, I have a question for you. Why is it that your eighth graders almost always pass your courses with a "B" grade or higher?" Never. Why?
I believe that grades at the secondary level have already been functionally eliminated and emptied of their meaning by the primacy of standardized testing. I believe that we should eliminate grading systems because they are useless, wasteful, and redundant in the negative sense. At this point we have two grading systems: meaningless grades and standardized test scores.
I believe that standardized testing in education has the same effect on culture and learning that anesthesia has prior to invasive dental work: "I don't care what happens next, I just don't want to feel anything until it's over or be reminded that it ever happened."
Standardized tests are the "grades" of the present and they represent a political move that has nothing to do with students, education, or culture. Standardized tests are seen by elected officials as a way to deliver votes. So long as they do, our public education system will, without fail, remain solidly in the camp of testing all students at every possible opportunity.So long as the results can be manipulated by re-engineering tests and answers, those tests will remain in the hands of educrats driven by dollars.
Students are not the ones being graded at all, and it's time students received valuable reflections that help them see who they are and what they are becoming.
Aug 10 2011: Todd you make excellent points about standardized testing. Also, I'm glad administrators aren't asking you about your grades, but if you're still giving them and they're factored into a GPA, then they still exist.
Thanks for chiming in on this.Aug 12 2011: Nice critique Todd. Standardized tests are only political weapons.Aug 9 2011: I definitely agree that grades should be eliminated, because really what do they show?? nothing, except what we say the should. Just because you get an A in a class doesn't mean that you are "smart" and learned everything. 6 months down the road what will you have taken from that class you got an A in? that's where true learning is. It's what you can take away from a class. I know people who flunked out of high school, but they are the smartest people I know (not all of them, but some).
Peter Dodds
Aug 4 2011: There is one thing that is missing in this process. Narrative feedback isn't good enough if there is no performance standards attached to it. Once you have standards (developed amongst the staff that must use those standards--English teachers set their standards, etc....) there will be more consistency in feedback from teacher to teacher and more clarity of what to the student knows or does not know. Just because you don't have a letter grade doesn't mean you are not allowed to perform up to expectations. It is called standards-based grading and has been successful in many schools. It makes grading more objective with the use of performance rubrics and common assessments from one class to another (that way any English teacher could "grade" the same paper and the "score" would be almost exactly the same).
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Aug 5 2011: Peter, I realize standards must play a role in assessment. Sadly, this is the system we live in. Most standards are very poorly written and do not account for the different abilities of students.
Having said this, I believe there's plenty of room for narrative feedback that addresses standards. With learning outcomes properly outlined within a discipline, it would be easy for any teacher to leave feedback, even if a student was not in her class. Thanks for this excellent observation.
Aug 5 2011: But using performance is an excellent way to provide differentiation! One student's "3" might be another student's "4." And you are write that most standards are poorly written, but there is work being done on them... good work at that. Besides, one of the most effective ways to make the standards better is to "unpack" them yourself (or even better, with those in your department) to develop standards that work for your particular school.Aug 1 2011: Yes it is.
The damage that can be done to a child by giving he or she a bad grade often times is irreversible.
Here's an extract of the transcript ot Aimee Mullins' talk http://www.ted.com/talks/aimee_mullins_the_opportunity_of_adversity.html which is relevant to the matter at hand:
There was a case study done in 1960's Britain, when they were moving from grammar schools to comprehensive schools. It's called the streaming trials. We call it tracking here in the States. It's separating students from A, B, C, D and so on. And the A students get the tougher curriculum, the best teachers, etc. Well, they took, over a three month period, D level students, gave them A's, told them they were A's, told them they were bright. And at the end of this three month period, they were performing at A level.
And, of course, the heartbreaking, flip side of this study, is that they took the A students and told them they were D's. And that's what happened at the end of that three month period. Those who were still around in school, besides the people who had dropped out. A crucial part of this case study was that the teachers were duped too. The teachers didn't know a switch had been made. They were simply told these are the A students, these are the D students. And that's how they went about teaching them and treating them.
Aug 2 2011: Helena, thanks so much for chiming in and sharing the link and especially the study. I have heard of the study but haven't seen it.
This certainly makes sense and underscores exactly what we're talking about here with how damaging grades are.
Thanks again for your contribution.Aug 9 2011: I want to echo something that Mark is saying, it's important. Understanding Results Only Learning will answer many of the concerns and questions raised. More to the point, being afraid of change, and that is what I hear over and over, is no reason to stop it.
I believe that parents and communities must act to move forward. Teachers are left to their own devices and thank goodness there are people like Mark who believe so much in learning and in children's abilities to become lifelong learners - that they take on opposition for the betterment of education.
Let's keep something in mind: Teachers need and deserve our partnership, respect and support. Not everyone can, or should teach. It's a gift, a vocation and in many cases a commitment to doing a "job" for which there isn't even adequate pay.
Mark is doing something that he has found success with. Hearing about the results his students achieve should make us take notice in a manner that is positive. I definitely see where what he is doing can be so good for kids, although I certainly recognize it's not an answer to the overall problem. But it wasn't mean to be. Looking back at my first response, I missed that.
We can all cite reasons for why something will fail. That's been explored. I challenge you all to take the viewpoint that it will succeed. Think about it, talk about it. Be open to the change you want to see - it might mean letting go of those carefully guarded perceptions, but TED is a forum for learning and sharing - I hope everyone sees that in order for that to happen, we ourselves must be willing to consider change as progress. I learned from a great teacher (more years ago than I care to admit!) that the best debate is one in which each team can argue each side of the subject on the table. If nothing else, it illustrates our level comprehension more completely.
If during the course of such debate, you discover something you hadn't known before, "ta-da" learning has been achieved. Which IS the goal.
Aug 10 2011: Libbey, your heartfelt comment means a lot to me. I am certainly willing to take on questions, concerns and even negativity. This is why I started this remarkable debate, which people have made the most active on the TED.com conversations site.
Change is difficult, especially major reform of something that has been the same for so long.
I believe ongoing discussions, like this one, will make people take notice, and other teachers will begin using results-only learning worldwide.
Thanks again for you kind words and support.
Joe Delsen
Aug 9 2011: Mark, maybe the problem is the emotional connection that our soceity usually attach to the grades. Grades could be objective in certain aspects. Perhaps the grading systems should start at "A" and no "F" because we are all intrinsically intelligent and good people. http://Bit.Ly/KeyPower
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Narrative feedback is great as it translates into more meaningful care for each student. I also like Salman Khan's idea that we all can learn basic math, science, grammar and values education, with the help of our technologies.Aug 8 2011: Changing student learning assessment isn't enough to effect the overhaul needed in education. As a parent who dis-enrolled her children from a superior-rated school with wonderful teachers and staff, I can attest to this fact:
Problems in schools aren't born there.
Issues which adversely affect a child's education begin outside of the school and reflect the problems within the community. Education needs more than just reform, or a change in how we judge performance. Whether we speak of a student's performance or a teacher's - we must look outside that institutional "box" to parents & communities. When any community has a multiple schools which are both private and public, lack of appropriate funding opportunities sets the stage for elitist and often non-diverse systems, which may follow the same state guidelines for education, but whose populace is unbalanced in terms of background - both ethnic and financial.
Where we live, there are vast differences in the climate in which a child can receive an education. And while it shouldn't be the case, these differences affect our children while in school - and out of school, living in the community. That affect transfers itself to the parents - whether they are taking on the stress of trying to afford a "better" private school or to live in a better school district, or dealing with problems in lower income communities from drugs & gangs - the changes we need to see in our schools are wholly reflective of the problems the community at large faces. Until federal and state funding aids ALL schools, to standardize resources while maintaining the highest level of educational integrity - the differences in income status will continue to build walls and create class segregated schools.
Creating an environment that is super-charged educationally and child centered means removing ALL barriers that threaten to compromise a child's ability to engage themselves in learning. That starts with social change, with parents and government
Aug 8 2011: Libbey. Very well said. I found this article this morning I was going to post in this thread anyway about the cheating scandal in Atlanta schools. I think it reflects very well what you have stated.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/05/atlanta.public.schools.scandal/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1Aug 8 2011: I used to be a teacher.
I taught for a while at an elite private academy. Most of the students were delivered by limousine or town car in the morning and the chauffeurs would pick them up at night. They were indifferent students at best and full of entitlement. Little Bushies. Most of them haven't done anything with their lives except join daddies firm. Parasites by and large.
I also taught in the inner city where some of my students were homeless, or dealt with gang problems or worse. And those students were almost to a person wonderful to deal with once they decided that they could trust me. Half of those students have moved on to become doctors, lawyers and other productive members of society. One of my favorites, Seth, was homeless and yet managed to get all of his homework done (including practicing clarinet every night). He never knew where his next meal was coming from or where he would sleep.
There is not comparison in my mind. The kids from nothing were more empathetic, caring, creative and motivated than the rich kids. And yet the rich kids will make more money and cause more problems. The USA may be many things, but what we are mostly is an empire in decline filled with citizens who distract themselves from the humanity around them.Aug 8 2011: Libbey, I agree with you, but I'm not willing to wait for parents and government to make the necessary changes, because they will never do so. As a teacher, who understands what students need, I think it's important to act. This is why I run my classroom differently from all traditional educators.
Thanks for your comment.
Aug 9 2011: Hi Mark ~
I see your point. It is easy for those of us who aren't immersed in the classroom to find a myriad of "what if" potentials. I recognize too your commitment to actually moving forward to effect the change some of us only talk about. And thank you for it. Truly.
(AND ... I continue to think this is an EXCELLENT debate/question - way to raise awareness.)Aug 7 2011: As a parent, grades and test scores help me get an idea of how my child is doing in relation to expected standards. And according to my expectations. I have 3 children. One is extremely intelligent and can easily achieve straight As. If he gets a B or C that needs to be taken seriously. My other school age child is also very intelligent but not in an academic way. I'm happy with Bs for her. Her strengths such as creativity and independence don't get recognised in the school system very well at this point although I think that ultimately she will be as successful as her brother. Should grades be the be all or end all of everything? Absolutely not. But I would hope that if a child is scoring poorly that the teacher takes the time to work out WHY that child is scoring below expectations and uses it as a starting point to tailor that child's education so that they do have the potential to achieve.
As a child myself I always liked getting marks because I worked hard and that was one way of recognising that to which anyone could relate. I didn't want to get the same pass score as someone who hadn't worked and who had done the bare minimum.
Teachers and children need detailed assessments not just a letter grade so that there is some basis for improvement.
Aug 7 2011: Donna, I hear so much passion in your words, and as a parent I certainly appreciate this. What I also see is the word "expectation" an awful lot. Expectation can be a very negative word; I try to use it sparingly when teaching. When we hit students with expectations, learning becomes about what the teacher thinks, rather than what the student thinks.
When my children get report cards, I ask them how they feel about the marks. "Are you happy with what you accomplished? Did you learn? What would you like to improve upon?" Questions like these eliminate expectation and make learning a responsibility that children embrace.
If you admonish your "A student" for getting a B or a C, then his learning is now about you and your expectations. This is exactly what makes grades deplorable learning killers.
I appreciate that you were a good student, but you didn't realize as most children don't that you were conditioned to take pride in grades. I would hope that deep down you were really proud of what you had accomplished. I wonder, if you got a grade below an A, did you feel an urge to learn more, or did you feel defeated?
Students only do "the bare minimum" for one of two reasons: they see the task as useless or they've been defeated by poor grades and feel that, no matter how hard they work, they will fail.
I hope you'll believe me both as a parent and a teacher speaking from experience, your children don't need grades. Put them in a Results Only Learning Environment, and they'll embrace learning more than ever.
Finally, I find it interesting that you are willing to settle for less learning from your second child. Consider how your feelings might change if she loved learning as much as the first. Take away the "B or C" label, and she just might.
Thanks so much for joining the debate.Aug 5 2011: I agree with you. But, for eliminating grades in education, I think teachers should earn more and have less students per class. :-)
Aug 6 2011: Hear, hear.Aug 4 2011: If you will for one moment, forget 'grading students'. Grades also serve as an indicator to let people know how well the 'teacher' is doing.
I just dont see how or why I would send my son to a school where the teacher could not be held accountable, as well as, the student. What is mentioned above...sounds like home-schooling, but not every parent or child has the environment for it. In addition, what is so wrong with having both?
Every teacher who grades now, should be able to provide meaningful narrative feedback as to why the student is being graded what they are.
I am all for progress and new ideas, but this idea just sounds like an escape plan to stop doing something many believe stifles teachers; not students. I cant help but feel this type of teaching for a child would lead an adult who is socially clueless as to what is expected when finding a job; believing that they can talk their way into or out of something.
Aug 6 2011: Steven, I hope all of my students are very capable of talking their way into or out of something. The sort of critical thinking skills required for this are exactly the kind that grow in a ROLE.
I can't speak much about home schooling, but if it embraces collaboration, autonomy, the elimination of useless methods like homework, worksheets and testing, then, yes, the ROLE is like this.
I'm not sure how you can judge the quality of a teacher by grades. Let's see, you want to evaluate me on whether my students get good grades, no problem; they'll all get A's. Remember, the teachers give the grades, which is exactly the problem and the subjective nature I've written so widely about that so many people don't seem to understand.
Sadly, I have the power to "give" any grade I want, even though the letter I give has nothing to do with performance or learning. Yet people continue to say that grades are objective. This assertion is very unreasonable to me.
Seth Powell
Aug 7 2011: "I just dont see how or why I would send my son to a school where the teacher could not be held accountable, as well as, the student." Steve, there you go being a parent. Don't you know it is 2011? Parents are no longer required to think about the best interest of their child or their development. That is the teacher's job. And, really, Steve, what makes you think you know better than the teacher? Do you hold an advanced degree? Do you have eighteen years of experience with other people's children? If not, shut up - this doesn't concern you, plebe. Just send in your tax dollars and go concern yourself with whatever dreary work you do in the private sector. (Cut to Mike and Mark, nodding in agreement)
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Mark - there is a profound difference between teachers giving grades and students earning grades. That you have repeatedly been so quick to point out your ability to manipulate test grades is starting to make me question your character. Is promoting the ROLE system a way for you to absolve guilt for breaking your own code of honor in the classroom? Stop using the "Yeah but I could be a sack of shit" argument to disqualify honest teachers and the honest, objective system they uphold. You are the only one falling for it.
SEPAug 8 2011: Um - really? Talking your way into and out of things seems to be the MOST desirable job skill these days. It's kept scores of sociopathic business leaders and politicians out of jail. And it certainly seems to be the most desirable and marketable skill in media...
In what way isn't this preparation for a BS career?Aug 4 2011: I agree with you. I think that learning should be about learning, not who can learn the most or who can learn the best. I think that every person has unique wants and passions and can't simply be placed in a system and have it be expected for them to adapt and succeed in it. I feel that numbers are just a quick, impersonal way to define someone's status so as to save time and effort. But we can't just let a number judge their intelligence or their capability. Someone who didn't get very high grades in English who wants to pursue a graphic arts program (for example) because they feel passionate about art shouldn't be limited to that opportunity because they were 5 tenths off the mark. And yet someone who didn't really care about art, but who had the higher grades, should be able to pursue it because they have a higher number? what does that teach people? that because you are better suited for societies system that you are better suited for being successful? or that because you aren't suited for societies system you must learn to adapt or not be able to accomplish what you want to do?
I also think that a big problem with the school system these days is that students simply aren't doing what they want. we have access to so much knowledge by just the internet alone that a lot of us have already decided what we're passionate about and what we want. But we have to spend time doing things that we aren't and time being in palces that aren't helping us get to where we wants to be. Surely i can write a 500 word essay on Shakespeare but i think i'd have a much higher grade if i wrote about something i cared about.
The problem with our generation isn't that we aren't good enough or motivated enough to do anything. It's that we feel that there are too many unimportant things in the way of reaching our goals. We're discouraged. Because we're a generation of imagination, and technology and dreams. and yet we're still living in a society that limits us.
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Seth Powell
Aug 4 2011: BINGO, Shaken!
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The only people should be encouraging this are,
a. Teachers - eliminating student's scores also eliminates teacher's scores, now they too can be graded on effort.
b. Under-performing Students - now no one determines if you are smart but you, kid! Say it with a straight face and it must be true.
c. Financial Consultants - because we will be making a killing when these morons enter the workforce and need someone to hold their hand from graduation to grave.
Sean Lim
Aug 4 2011: Why should putting more emphasis on the intrinsic value of learning make someone less competitive? I agree that doing away with grades entirely is not the right choice, but being so focused on competition is not any better. Aren't the leaders of our economy the people who have learned to tap their inner desire to learn more about something?Aug 10 2011: I would like to quote Clarence Darrow who had something to say about competition.
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"A criminal is someone with a predatory instinct who lacked the capital to start a corporation."
Sean Lim
Aug 4 2011: Wow you just generalized an ENTIRE generation of people! How do you know what all their lives are like?
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edit: Haha well your description describes my educational experience pretty well.... I'm not complaining thoughAug 5 2011: Yes, i am appreciative to live in a country with so many opportunities and be part of a generation so advanced. But we aren't talking about the difference between my country and others. we're talking about the education system in mine and other like mine. and thank-you-very-much, i think i have a right to say whatever the hell i want about how I feel about the education system in MY country. I can't speak for anyone else in any other countries and i'm not trying to. Excuse me for speaking my mind, i thought that's what this entire website was devoted to.
What i said is how i feel and understand the education system to be flawed and i personally would like to change it. It's not that i am unappreciative of what i have, it's that i'd like to use what i have to further myself rather than waste it.
Mark Barnes
Aug 6 2011: Amanda, you have brought a fresh point of view to the debate. Thanks so much for your comments.
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Shaken, regardless of how much or how little someone may have, I'm not sure why this means we should make education boring. I think you may have missed Amanda's point. If I understand her, she wants the right to choose what she learns. She doesn't want to be labeled by a letter that most likely does nothing to define her.Aug 9 2011: Hi Amanda,
Am I understanding you correctly, that you believe students should not be required to learn things that do not interest them?Aug 3 2011: I have to say that as a teacher (I work as an adjunct professor part time) I think grades are incredibly important to the way students think about the consequences of how hard they choose to work, or possibly how easily something comes to them, and where they stand in general in a class. Now, I don't mean to say that I think the current system is perfect but I think the elimination of grades on the whole is an oversimplified solution to the problem. I agree with the point about meaningful feedback. Ultimately there needs to be the immediate feedback (a ranking system one may say as opposed to a grading system) coupled with a meaningful dialogue about how one can improve their rank (or grade as the case may be).
I think a major issue that I see in my students is that we as a society have decided to make it too easy for them to fail. By saying that grades are unnecessary I think that we are in turn saying that they are meaningless and that if a student doesn't do well it isn't because of a problem/issue the student has it is because the system is flawed. I think that is a dangerous thought process. In a perfect world, yes having meaningful discourse about how one can improve their efforts towards doing better in a class or school in general would be wonderful; however in that you are assuming that most students want to do better and that is not always true. For that reason I think grades have to stay as a baseline assessment tool and then if you can parse out those that would benefit from a non-traditional feedback mechanism that is where there is room for change.
Aug 3 2011: I read your message with the enlighted vision from another TED Talk I was watching yesterday: Alain de Botton's "A kinder, gentler philosophy of success" speech. He was talking about meritocracy, about the underneath competition, how it's great when you succeed... and how it is crushing for those who fail.
Even the notion of "failure" is linked to that new way of thinking. Alain told us that a century (and maybe a half) ago, a person who didn't reach success was described as an "unfortunate", which has a slightly different meaning from the nowadays "loser" one...
You told that some children maybe simply seek failure if we don't encourage them through grades. I don't think children seek failure more than others... but maybe they don't seek what others tell them success is.
Maybe the problem is letting children thinking that if they don't fit in our nowadays school systems, they will fail. And that leads to the point of this talk: since our system doesn't naturally push children towards success in their life, we need to change at least something to our school system.
I personally have always been afraid of and stressed by the idea to go to school. Why? It is a non-sense. I needed education to have the tools to decide what I wanted to do and to enjoy my own adult life. I knew all that. But that didn't change my feelings about it. And I remember neither my parents or my teachers ever brought me a satisfying answer. And, due to our system, I wonder if they could ever bring it.
The meritocracy Alain told about has invaded our schools. I am pretty sure a majority of children doesn't feel in a friendly environment at school. They feel competition, reward in case of success, and most of all ridicule if they fail... and of course the "loser" tag virtually stamped on their forehead aswell.
It's hard to think about a new system because we are not used to it. But we have to try, and for that we need to sweep away our preconceived ideas about what is good or bad in education.
Comment deleted
Aug 3 2011: I'm hoping that I understand your question, but ultimately I think the "fear of fair" and the "learning to learn" may come more from how a teacher/educator presents learning to the students than the pressure that a grading system places on them. I think that was alluded to in the previous comment. When I teach I try and convey to my students that it isn't the grade they should be stressed about, but what it represents. The original article said that if you give a student an F they learn nothing, if they get an A they also learn nothing, this again is flawed. I think as a teacher it is my job to make sure they do learn from that F or from that A. I start my class by saying that there are no stupid questions, but the ones that are never asked. I try and make sure that lines of communication are open. If a student of mine gets an F my mind goes to many different options as to why. I try and make sure that they can feel free to talk to me about it. I also try very hard to impart on my students a desire to question, they are always free to discuss their grade as I hope they would feel free to question almost anything presented to them. I think that comes to your last point where learning to learn is something that may unfortunately happen post-formal education. I try and tell my students that while I am their teacher, I will always first be a student. I never purport to know everything and neither should they. Learning comes in different forms, however your mastery of what you have learned has to be quantified, I need to know where I stand in my knowledge base so that I can feel comfortable using that information to make later decisions. Much like you say it influences economy and so forth. For that reason I feel that if a teacher can take the scariness out of learning, an F isn't a shameful thing its an opportunity to understand.Aug 2 2011: I went to a high school where students were given letter grades, but they were based on the student's level of proficiency in meeting 6 competency areas called Learner Expectations. Each paper or project grade was accompanied with an explanation of how well we performed in each LE, which included Complex Thinker, Skilled Information Processor, Effective Communicator, Collaborative Worker, Responsible Citizen and Knowledgeable Person.
I feel like this was a fairly good compromise between grades and qualitative measures of learning. Unfortunately, many students ignored the Learner Expectations and just looked at the grade, and that is a deeper cultural problem that needs to be fixed.
Aug 2 2011: Justin, thank you for this specific information. This sounds like a solid system. I would suggest that if some students ignore the comments in favor of the grade that this bears out much of what I say about grades.
Imagine the added power of your Learner Expectations, if all students considered them carefully. Minus the letter, they just might do this.
Thanks for a thoughtful addition to this inspired debate.
Aug 8 2011: My high school was part of the Coalition of Essential Schools if you are interested in learning more about the philosophy. Perhaps you have already heard of it.Aug 8 2011: Sounds like an interesting system Justin. Thanks for talking about it. You are so very correct about the "cultural divide" that exists on the question of assessment.
Nathan Zhang
Aug 2 2011: The problem is, though, that parents demand a method of knowing what their kids are doing and higher-education requires a way of quantifying a student's aptitude relative to others. If we are to have this, then naturally, competitive students and parents will accentuate the importance of such grades and thereby force everybody else to do the same. This perhaps is a classic case of the stag hunt game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt) and because there will always be competitive students, any method of quantification will become like grades.
- +2
As for removing grades altogether, it becomes counterproductive to create alternate feedback mechanisms with more depth due to the fact that such grades must be processed quickly and efficiently for many purposes (such as data-crunching and college admissions). For example, which is better, an "excellent student" or an "excelling student"?
josue ramon
Aug 1 2011: If I understand education as a process of discovering potentialities an development, there are two points: first, each person discovers its potentialities and second, other person discover its potentialities.
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Grades are disigned by people who believe that its possible to define the space (school, rooms, ...) and the time in which a person can development its potentialities. I think this in not true anymore. Yes: its time to eliminate grades.
Bernd Fesel
Jul 31 2011: Of course it is so easy to agree to your proposal if one knows the dangers of grades - I have two childern and I know this quite well. My answer to the useless grade system was to teach my children not accept any outside judgements as given, as objective or as measures of personality. We need to keep in mind that the grade system is imposed on persons who are just developing their personality - to me this is the worst point of time to apply a grading system.
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Since I needed to help my childern aginst the grade system, I teach them to look at the process of learning of rather than the result of learning. narrative feedback is much better than grades - but still: a higher outside authority tells the story. and of course children in this age of personality building will compare themselves inevitably: which feedback is better than an other? who is the social and intellectual leader in the class ? this peer group dynamic will eat up and misuse the storytelling just as the grades.
So I would stay with my recommendation even with a storytelling-system: what ever you learned, it is not a measure of your social position or personal development. it is a step in a process each child governs itself - by the way: since my children really do not take school too serious any longer, they are much better at school.
So said in short. Yes - your idea is an improvement, but No: It is not enough to help to educate.
Jul 31 2011: Bernd, I think somewhere along the way you misunderstood my message. I believe narrative feedback is the best replacement for number and letter grades. It is not enough, by itself, to be an education system.
What I want is to see all teachers create what I call a Results Only Learning Environment, www.resultsonly.com. This is truly a system. It creates a workshop setting, year-long projects that encompass all learning outcomes, collaboration, autonomy and self-evaluation.
I have seen a ROLE change everything in my classroom.
Julie Ann
Jul 29 2011: Some thoughts - what grade would you give a child for learning to talk or to walk, to learn the colours of the rainbow or the letters of the alphabet, to ponder the number of stars in the sky or grains of sand on the beach, why the sky is blue or the grass is green? How much time would you give a child to learn to walk, before telling him to give up trying, because he stumbles too often and will never be good at it?
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What grade would you give a teen to learn a poem by Keats, admire the paintings of Rembrandt, read the novels of Achebe, study the behaviour of butterflies, or practice double integrals - just because she is fascinated by them. I wonder what grades the old literary and science masters got.
Not assigning grades is not revolutionary - homeschooling parents have, for a long time, been successfully facilitating their children's learning without grades, without judgement.
Jul 30 2011: Hear, hear. Thanks for your insight.
I give your comment an A. Kidding :)
Jul 30 2011: :-)
Amy Peach
Jul 27 2011: I remember the talk on extrinsic motivation. It was very interesting and I can see how your observations in the health care industry support the assumption. There is one important distinction to be made here, however. We tend to live life at the level of our perception and all of us in this discussion are educated adults doing what we love (hopefully). But what of the 14-year old who loves his English class, but can't stand Geometry? In subjects we love (either fully or at least in part), I can see the argument working. Having taught these delightful, but not always motivated, high-schoolers, these assumptions may or may not work. When teaching pre-service teachers at the college level, it's an entirely different story. Grades are completely beside the point (it's the recommendation letter that counts)
- +2
Now, I think I can predict the response to this :) If they're not motivated to learn these subjects at all, why are we teaching them? Great question! What I'd love to see (at least by the time my grandchildren go to school) is a life-long learning model in which students aged 2-102 follow a self-designed plan of learning based upon their own environment, culture, and interests. For instance, my five year old has been consumed with a love for dinosaurs. She talks about them, sings about them, draws them, and posits theories on their demise. We've taken full advantage of this with books, internet resources, videos, trips to museums, and discussions with family members on what they've learned over the years on the topic. This investigation has covered science, math, art, music, writing, and even a level of social studies not entirely expected (one discussion morphed into a debate over how much funding the city of St. Louis should give its science center to expand dino-related activities) Highly motivating? Absolutely. And with no grade or snack attached. If we can envision a program like this to educate our society, grades would be largely unnecessary
Jul 27 2011: Wow, Amy, what you describe sounds exactly like a Results Only Learning Environment, which is built on year-long projects that incorporate all of the learning outcomes from one subject, while integrating cross-curricular objectives, as well.
Our vision can happen much sooner than later, if we make it so. I started a ROLE a year ago, changing everything. I didn't ask for permission; I just did it. The results were beyond amazing. All it takes is action.
Thanks for your tremendous input.
Ajay Kamath
Jul 27 2011: Mark, maybe we would agree on many things if we spoke. But I'll play devil's advocate here. Open ended proposals are great but not useful unless they can draw atleast a faint line towards on the ground implementation (probably this is very non-TEDish). Narrative feedback does not change the game at all. My 2 cents below (I am not teacher and not an expert at anything :))
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- Central idea #1: 'Bad grades demotivate students'. Honestly speaking that really depends on how the teachers and parents explain to kids what a bad grade means. It means you need to work harder and not give up. Add narrative feedback to that and students will have clear direction to channelize thier efforts. The next test would be indicator of actual improvement. I dont see why, if improvement was made as per narrative feedback, the grade won't improve. I do beleive that an earlier bad grade should not stick with a student for life once he has made effort to change it.
- Central idea #2: 'Grades dont indicate anything about learning'. This is true in specific cases but mostly false in a gerneral sense. Student with 'A' might not necessarily have more knowledge about a subject than one with 'B', but any experiment will show (I have no evidence to back this up, this is an educated guess) clear difference in understanding of subject matter between a student with 'A' and one with 'F'.
- Central idea #3:'Thirst for learning (as an instinct) can be ignited or detroyed by any kind of grading system'. Current system or any other alternate system of evaluation will not affect this. Learning is a personal quest. No doubt that certain environments, people, stories or encounters ignite a thirst for learning in most of us. That is the only true motivation for pure learning and is independent of what grades you get OR how much money you are paid.


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To paraphrase Muhammad Ali, GM shook up the world with the ZR1. Corvettes have always been world class, but the ZR1, bulging with 133 more horsepower than the already-formidable Z06, was in a class by itself. To prove it, Corvette Racing driver Jan Magnussen lapped Germany's Nürburgring in a ZR1 at 7:22.4, beating the Ferrari Enzo, the Pagani Zonda F Clubsport, and the Maserati MC12. Take that, world!
Thanks to its carbon-intensive construction and 638hp LS9 engine, the ZR1 hits 60 mph in 3.4 seconds and reaches a top speed of 205 mph. A Magnetic Selective Ride Control suspension allows the use of lower spring rates than are employed on the Z06, making the new King of the Hill both more responsive and more comfortable to drive than its recently deposed predecessor. Best of all, the ZR1 carries a bargain price (for an exotic) of only $103,000. Could it get any better?
Second-generation Corvette enthusiast Mark Osborne certainly thought so. After trading in his beloved Z06 on a new ZR1, he embarked upon a series of modifications that culminated in shipping the car to Lingenfelter Performance Engineering (LPE) in Decatur, Indiana.
Osborne isn't your typical performance junkie: he likes show cars. He wanted to make this one stand out, so he first sent it to Steve Ray at Airbrush Incorporated for "something menacing." Next, he added more menace with black-chrome wheels; tinted windows, lights, and markers; polished engine pieces; and a variety of subtle touches, all expertly done. Notice, for example, the additional carbon-fiber trim pieces, which were done by Osborne's own company, Southern Coating and Nameplate Inc.
But Osborne knew the raison d'être of the ZR1 was performance, so off the car went to Lingenfelter, which added a 2.60-inch supercharger pulley, a 100mm double-bearing idler assembly, a solid supercharger-isolator coupling, an air-intake system, and a 160-degree thermostat—all blended together in a nice, balanced package that only improves upon the LS9's existing strengths.
Before doing the modifications, Osborne had the then-1,000-mile car dyno tested. It registered 525 horses and 510 lb-ft of torque at the rear wheels. With the LPE bits and a few other small items installed (see the accompanying Spec Sheet), those numbers jumped to a downright alarming 600 rwhp and 580 rwtq.
"The car is completely different, and the throttle response is breathtaking, to say the least," he says. "It was bad when it was stock, and now the only way to describe it was nasty and mean. It will burn the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s till close to 90 mph and into Third gear. The supercharger comes alive a lot quicker, and you have to roll into the throttle to even consider getting traction."
While that level of speed would be enough for most, Osborne yearned for even more. But this time the focus would be on the machine behind the wheel, rather than on the car itself. Specifically, he sought out some first-class driver training from David and Tom Leonard of SpeedSouth Active Power (www.speedsouth.com).
A performance-tuning and race shop in Pelham, Alabama, SpeedSouth's Z06 (sidebar) won First overall at NASA's Road Atlanta event last December, and followed up that performance with a First in class at the PBOC's Sebring race in January, beating Ferraris and Porsches in the process. The next month it won First overall with NARRA and PBOC, then took First in class again in a race the very next day. So maybe these guys know a few things about making Corvettes faster.
Osborne had never been on a track before, but he drove the ZR1 on the seven-hour trip from his home in Arkansas to Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham, Alabama. There, he spent a weekend with David Leonard, learning how to handle this new beast on Barber's 2.38-mile, 17-turn road course. As it turned out, it may have been the smartest thing he's done yet with the car.
Despite mostly wet conditions, Leonard was able to take Osborne and the ZR1 out several times. Then, he took out the SpeedSouth Z06, with Osborne following along in the ZR1. Both men exhibited remarkable restraint by motoring along for our photographer at merely "really fast" speeds. With so much horsepower on such a beautiful track, posing for a photog in a slow-moving camera vehicle must have been a challenge.
With a bona fide race driver at the helm, Osborne was stunned at his car's true capabilities. "We could have passed in the corners!" he said afterwards. "The car felt like it was on rails. The brakes were strong, and [they] were used more on those laps than they ever had been. It was amazing how fast David was...full throttle, then on the brakes hard and back to full throttle again. If my head wasn't pinned to the left or right, it was pinned to the back of the seat.
"You would see a car up ahead and it wasn't [but] a few seconds before David was on the rear bumper and going for the pass. To hear the car was impressive: you could hear as soon as he touched the gas, the supercharger let out a scream, and we were gone again. When the exhaust cut-outs opened, the car sounded amazing, like it was where it needed to be every weekend…on a racetrack!"
For his part, Leonard could tell straightaway that Osborne had more experience at car shows than on racetracks. The new ZR1 owner was stunned to discover just how effective those carbon-ceramic brakes really were, to learn what 1g of lateral acceleration really felt like, and to experience the true capabilities of the car's perfectly balanced suspension.
Even if Osborne never takes the next step with more instruction, he's already a safer driver knowing that his ZR1 is essentially twice the car he thought it was. As Leonard points out, "That's important, because guys like Mark need to know how to handle situations with all that power. Most accidents happen with other cars, so the braking and nimble turning [can help him] avoid them."
Think of it as the "ten tenths" analogy. If a car's maximum performance is considered ten tenths, most drivers will never experience more than about two tenths of that capability. That's true even if the vehicle in question is a minivan. Driving instruction helps you find that fourth or sixth tenth of your car's capability. You'll not only double or triple your return on investment from a driving-enjoyment standpoint, you'll be a safer driver in the process.


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Redesigned for 2011, the 5-series sedan got a handsome new suit of sheetmetal and some new mechanicals underneath. Fuel economy improves this year, as the 528i and the 535i gain auto stop-start, which can shut down the engine when idling at a stop. The 528i drops its straight-six engine for a 2.0-liter turbo four. We're sad to see the six go (although the 535i retains its turbocharged version), but the turbo four actually makes a bit more power than the six. The steering in the current 5 has lost some feel, but the chassis deftly combines a plush ride and superior handling. Buyers who want to take things further can spring for the sport package or the M sport package, both of which include dynamic damper control and an increased top-speed limiter. A manual transmission is available for the rear-wheel-drive versions of the 535i and the V-8-powered 550i. All-wheel-drive models, the 528i, and the Gran Turismo use an eight-speed automatic. Buyers who go the autobox route (a no-charge option where it's not already standard) are treated to one of the best automatics on the market. The 5-series Gran Turismo hatchback has effectively replaced the wagon. It's more than just a hatchback version of the 5-series. It's actually sort of a cross between the X5 SUV and the 5-series sedan. Compared to the latter, it's considerably larger -- longer, wider, and taller. Its sloping roofline gives it rather odd proportions, but its long wheelbase makes for plentiful rear-seat legroom (as much as in a 7-series), and, of course, it has lots of cargo space with the rear seats down.
Certified Pre Owned Price


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CARSON, Calif. – After helping the LA Galaxy go undefeated in their last five games in all competitions, captain Robbie Keane will now devote his full efforts to helping Ireland qualify for the 2014 World Cup in Brazil.
The Irish face a pair of decisive games during this international period as they face Sweden in Dublin on Sept. 6 and Austria in Vienna on Sept 10. Currently, Ireland are in fourth place in Group C tied on 11 points with with second place Austria and third place Sweden due to goal difference. Six points from these two matches could put Keane's squad in contention for a spot in UEFA's playoffs as Germany is expected to win the group as they currently top the group with 16 points.
"These games are the make or break for us," said Keane. "It's important that we hopefully get six points. It's going to be tough, but we certainly can't afford to lose the games."
Ireland head coach Giovanni Trapattoni couldn't ask for his captain to be returning to the national team in better form as Keane has scored seven goals and two assists in his last five games with the Galaxy and joins the Irish full of confidence.
"It's good. It's a completely scenario, once I leave [the Galaxy] then I'm 100 percent focused on the national team," Keane said following Saturdays' 3-0 victory where he scored two goals in LA's win. "I'm looking forward to meeting up with the lads and putting on that green jersey again."
LA Galaxy Under-16's Haji Wright and Abraham Romero named to U.S. Under-17 Residency Program for fall semester
LA Galaxy Under-16 forward Haji Wright and goalkeeper Abraham Romero will be among 28 players that will take part in the fall semester of U.S. Under-17 Residency Program, U.S. Soccer announced on Tuesday.
Wright made 20 appearances for the Galaxy Under-16's last season and finished in third in scoring with seven goals. The fall semester marks the start of preparations for the qualifying cycle for the 2015 Under-17 World Cup in Chile. A total of eight players selected by U-17 head coach Richie Williams heading to residency are California natives, which is the most of any state -- six of which are from Southern California.
Also named to the roster is Wright's Academy teammate Abraham Romero, who made 11 appearances last season while playing for LA's U-16 and U-18 squads. Romero was listed by U.S. Soccer as a member of FC Golden State, but is registered under with the Galaxy for the upcoming Development Academy season according to Galaxy Academy Director Peter Vagenas.
The complete roster is below...
GOALKEEPERS (3): William Pulisic (Richmond Strikers; Mechanicsville, Va.), Abraham Romero (LA Galaxy; Altadena, Calif.), Kevin Silva (PDA; Bethlehem, Pa.)
DEFENDERS (10): Hugo Arellano (Chivas USA Academy; Norwalk, Calif.), George Braima (Crew Soccer Academy; Columbus, Ohio), Pierre Da Silva (New York Soccer Club; Port Chester, N.Y.), Nikkye De Point (Revolution Empire; Rochester, N.Y.), Tanner Dietrich (Tennessee Soccer Club; Nashville, Tenn.), Cristian Martinez (NJSA 04; Mine Hill, N.J.), John Nelson (Internationals; Medina, Ohio), Matthew Olosunde (New York Red Bulls Academy; Trenton, N.J.), Elijah Rice (Chicago Magic PSG; Highland Park, Ill.), Alexis Velela (San Diego Surf; San Diego, Calif.)
MIDFIELDERS (9): Eric Calvillo (Real So Cal; Palmdale, Calif.), Ronaldo Escudero (Pateadores; Placentia, Calif.), Kyle Gurrieri (NJSA 04; Totowa, N.J.), Thomas McCabe (Players Development Academy; South Orange, N.J.), Weston McKinnie (FC Dallas Academy; Little Elm, Texas), Logan Panchot (St. Louis Scott Gallagher Missouri; St. Louis, Mo.), Devin Vega (San Antonio Scorpions; San Antonio, Texas), Brian Zelaya (Juventus Heat; San Mateo, Calif.), Alejandro Zendejas (FC Dallas Academy; El Paso, Texas)
FORWARDS (6): Kevin Coleman (FC Richmond; Warrenton, Va.), David Loera (Orlando City Lions; Orlando, Fla.), Jonathan Navarro (De Anza Force; San Jose, Calif.), Christian Pulisic (PA Classics; Hershey, Pa.), Sean Teixeira (New York Red Bulls Academy; Trumbull, Conn.), Haji Wright (LA Galaxy Academy; Los Angeles, Calif.)
For the second time in three weeks, LA Galaxy forward Robbie Keane has been named Player of the Week by the North American Soccer Reporters.
Keane earned the honors after scoring two goals and tallying one assist in LA's 3-0 romp over the San Jose Earthquakes on Saturday. The honor is Keane's second Player of the Week award of the season and the fourth for a member of the Galaxy. The Irishman will be unavailable this week for the club's match against the Colorado Rapids due to international duty.
With his two goals, Keane now has 12 goals and 10 assists With double digit goals and assists, Keane joins Landon Donovan (2005), Mauricio Cienfuegos, Cobi Jones & Welton (all 1998) in the Galaxy's double, double club.
CARSON, Calif. -- The LA Galaxy reserves played to a scoreless draw with the San Jose Earthquakes on Sunday at StubHub Center's University Field.
The complete match recap of the game is on LAGalaxy.com. LA are unbeaten in their last six reserve matches going 4-0-2 in that time. My sidebar on the match, which focuses on the positions up for grabs this week with players away on international duty can be read here.
Although his team remains undefeated in their last six matches, reserve team head coach Curt Onalfo was disappointed with his team's showing.
"It's a game where we should have won the game. We had a majority of the possession, a majority of the chances and we were unable to get through," said Onalfo. "There were a lot of good things. I think that we battled really hard, we worked for each other and except for one moment where they hit the post, we didn't give much away. In a game when you stake our six or seven good chances to their one, you should walk away winning the game. In my mind, we lost two points and it puts the onus on us for the last two reserve games to get the points that we need to win the reserve league."
The Galaxy reserves return to action next Sunday against the Colorado Rapids.
CARSON, Calif. – The LA Galaxy are steadily climbing the Western Conference standings and after their 3-0 victory over the San Jose Earthquakes, they sit just five points behind Supporters' Shield leaders Real Salt Lake—with two games in hand.
The reason for LA's impressive four game unbeaten run and three game winning streak in league play? Simple. Forwards Landon Donovan and Robbie Keane.
During the Galaxy's four-game unbeaten streak in league play, Keane and Donovan have accounted for 10 of LA's 11 goals scored, and they have combined for 16 goals and 14 assists in the 11 games that they've played together this season.
On Saturday, they were once again effective as their movement on and off the ball caused havoc for the Earthquakes defense as Donovan scored the opener before Keane notched a brace in the California Clásico victory.
When you ask the pair about their recent run of form, they both provide the same answer: They're just happy to be on the field together.
"I feel real good about how I'm playing. I'm just enjoying it a lot, I'm really happy out there. The energy seems to come to me really easy right now and I think when I'm energetic I create a lot of chances," said Donovan. "It doesn't mean I'm always going to score, but if I'm energetic I think I'm always going to be effective and that's what I'm trying to do right now."
"I know I was out for a few weeks [back in July] but I keep saying I don't like being injured, it's frustrating," said Keane. "So it's just nice to be back playing and scoring the goals and helping the team progress and get the points on the board."
CARSON, Calif. – The California Clásico is always a physical battle with plenty of knocks and bumps on both sides and in the closing stages of Saturday's 3-0 LA Galaxy victory over the San Jose Earthquakes, defender A.J. DeLaGarza felt the brunt of that physical play.
In the 82nd minute, Earthquakes forward Steven Lenhart crashed into DeLaGarza on a set piece opportunity that left the defender on the ground. A minute later, DeLaGarza was removed from the match in favor of Michael Stephens as the effects of the injury still lingered.
Following the match, Galaxy head coach Bruce Arena said that DeLaGarza simply suffered a knock that was not serious and the defender echoed those statements.
"I'll be fine. I'm sure that it'll be a nice Charlie horse in the morning. He got me in my thigh and he clearly went out of his way to do that," said DeLaGarza. "They'll look at it and he's obviously a repeat offender and whatever happens, happens."
Although he literally "took one for the team," DeLaGarza was simply pleased to get a result that sealed LA's fourth straight win and third straight shutout.
"It's big and the confidence is definitely rising. To get a shutout in Vancouver and two at home is positive," said DeLaGarza. "We're all making those plays now that we weren't making earlier in the year.
"We got three points and a shutout where they didn't have many chances on goal so it's a real positive."
CARSON, Calif. – Bruce Arena's thoughts following the LA Galaxy's 3-0 victory over the San Jose Earthquakes…
(On the match as a whole…)
ARENA: "I think our team played well tonight. San Jose played real hard in the first half, came out hard. The first goal was very important. I think they threw a lot into the game in the first half. You can see in the second half they lost their legs a little bit. Our team played well. It was a game winner. As the game went on, our passing improved. I thought we scored some good goals. Overall, a good performance. A good team effort."
(On Franklin's play out wide and whether he'd stay there indefinitely…)
ARENA: "I can't tell you that. We've played that way a fair number of times this year. Sean has played right midfield over a number of years. It's not a new position for him."
(On DeLaGarza's injury status…)
ARENA: "I think that he just took a knock. I don't think that it's serious."
(On the importance of the game with four internationals missing next week…)
ARENA: "Every game is important. What can I tell you? The next game is important. I'm asked that question game every week. They are all very important. We want to win every time we step onto the field. They are all important at this point in the season."
(On the play of the Earthquakes…)
ARENA: "Mike Stephens made a mistake at the end of the game, which probably gave them their best chance. They had a couple shots from distance throughout the game. There may have been a corner kick in the second half, as well. They were dangerous. Overall, our entire group played very well. Our backline was fantastic. Jaime has a good presence in the goal, as well."
On the play of Jaime Penedo:
"He's an experienced goalkeeper. When called on, he's come up for us in the last three or four games. He's certainly going to get tested a little bit more. I think he's played very well. He's given up two goals in four games. Jaime's obviously doing well."
Look ahead to San Jose: The LA Galaxy looking to get first home win against the San Jose Earthquakes since 2011
CARSON, Calif. -- The LA Galaxy will take on the San Jose Earthquakes on Saturday in the latest edition of the California Clasico. On Saturday, LA will be looking for their first victory against the San Jose Earthquakes at home since Aug. 2011.
More on the match below...
*The San Jose Earthquakes will be without three of their key players as Rafael Baca, Victor Bernandez, and Justin Morrow are suspended.
*For more on the Earthquakes, I spoke to San Jose reporter Robert Jonas.
*There's no love lost between these two teams as Sean Franklin admits that niether of these two teams care for one another.
*LAGalaxy.com's Larry Morgan offers this preview to the match.
*Lastly, my Three Points to the game.
Landon Donovan vs. Jason Hernandez
Without Victor Bernardez due to suspension, Hernandez will be stepping in for San Jose. Although the 30-year-old is an experienced defender, he does not have the physicality of the Honduran center back and is expected to be a major target for Donovan and Robbie Keane.
Gyasi Zardes vs. Steve Beitashour
With each passing match, Gyasi Zardes continues to become a focal point of the Galaxy attack and expect him to be a major part of the game plan against San Jose. With Beitashour looking to press forward, expect Zardes to try to catch him on the counter.
Chris Wondolowski vs. Omar Gonzalez
This battle of the titans will likely decide this match. Wondolowski's effectiveness has been limited due to the Earthquakes' more restrained attacking style, but he'll still seek to get behind Gonzalez and create chances.
Penedo; DeLaGarza, Gonzalez, Leonardo, Dunivant; Jimenez, Sarvas, Juninho, Zardes; Donovan, Keane
Ahead of tonight's California Clasico, LA Galaxy head coach Bruce Arena and players Todd Dunivant and Hector Jimenez preview the match against the San Jose Earthquakes.
Check it out below..
CARSON, Calif. – The California Clásico is back, considered by many to be the vicious rivalry in all of MLS.
Earlier this week, I spoke to several members of the Galaxy defense about the ferocity of the Clásico.
Their thoughts are below…
SEAN FRANKLIN: "The recent games have been high scoring with goals in the last minute and we had a tough playoff series as well, so we've got plenty of history. It's a team that we don't like and we know that they don't like us, so it's going to be a tough game."
TODD DUNIVANT: "They're going to be hungry and they always circle our games as the biggest of their year. It's a rivalry that has been there for a long time especially the last year-and-a-half. Going back to last year, going back to Stanford Stadium this year, there's been a lot of heated games and a lot of exciting games, unfortunately we've been on the rough end of a couple of them. It's going to be a big game and we expect them to give nothing but their best."
A.J. DELAGARZA: "This is a team where we've left points on the table in the last couple of years. It's a game that we get up for and it's the California Clásico, so it's a rivalry game. We're going to need to play well and get a W because they're missing three key guys and we have to take advantage of that. At the same time, we know that they can bring in experienced guys as well."


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I've been learning
In the video the kid seems to use his index finger on those two strings which allows both the base and melody to ring out. When I'm using my thumb the bass line stops. I'm at a loss as to how to get the percussion using just my index finger on those two strings and I'm not sure what to google, please help its an awesome song!


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Super Ram
The Super Ram is a powerlifting device designed to aid in your bench press training. It was designed to help support and protect the shoulders, pecs, and triceps while trainig the bench press with out wearing a supportive shirt. The Super Ram will not only allow you to train your bench press if you have naggin injuries but it will also help increase your raw and shirted bench press. The Super Ram is a great training device for powerlifters and people who just like to bench press heavy.


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Need a low voltage red rope light? FlexTec 206M12V/R 12-volt rope light has all the advantages of typical 120-volt rope light, but is safer for use in outdoor and automotive applications. Customers use it in places as varied as tree trunks and under car frames. The only limit is your imagination! The 3/8-inch version packs all the punch of the standard 1/2-inch rope light, but is easier to conceal in tight locations.
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If you must install rope light on an unstable or moving surface such as trees or bushes, it is most cost-effective to use incandescent rope light, which can be replaced at a lower cost than LED rope light.
Movement of frozen rope lights may also damage electrical connections. Avoid installing or re-spooling rope light when temperatures are below freezing. The PVC tubing can become brittle in temperatures below 50 deg. F.
While 1000Bulbs.com encourages all creative use of rope lights, we assume no responsibility for problems arising from cutting rope light. Professional installation is always recommended.
REQUIRED 12 Volt transformer is not included. Click here to purchase transformer.


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B&Q Compton Double
This double Compton double bed from B&Q takes standard 4'6" uk mattresses and is made from a sturdy, durable FSC® approved pine.
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Brenda Bolton, professor of medieval history at the University of London, will deliver a lecture about the subject of her work during her tenure as a NEH Research Fellow.
The lecture will take place at 3:15 p.m. Wednesday, April 6, in Adorjan Hall 142. A wine and cheese reception will follow.
The Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies supports, coordinates, and promotes the extraordinary array of scholars, students, and resources devoted to medieval and early modern research at Saint Louis University.
One of the largest in America, the Center is home to more than 50 full-time faculty members. By supporting students, conferences, speakers, fellowships, library acquisitions, and professorships the Center enriches the intellectual environment for medievalists and early modernists on campus and across the region.
All are welcome to attend this event. For more information please visit the Center's website.


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Last edited by NewVA18; May 6th, 2012 at 08:55 PM.
So hot!!
I also love Sean Erickson...
Last edited by RickyUK; May 7th, 2012 at 08:45 AM.
Love the first two; very hot!!
Pure bear daddies.
How gorgeous and sexy is Allen Silver? Yum!
I love the guy in NewVa's first post the second picture in. Such a great body and his eyes are KILLER!
Wow !
He is Great!
If you're looking for muscled, tattooed and hairy bodies visit: www.Zzzemen.WordPress.com/ Blog with the best selection of men galleries.
Attachment 819143 oh yeah
I really like the first guy in the first post and the last guy in post #14. This is a great thread!
very hot guys..
There isn't a guy in this thread that isn't fucking hot.
^btw the guy you are looking for has done porn. For some reason I'm thinking the name is Brett or something.
And ditto on the second guy in post 1. Seen him around a lot, wish I could find a profile.
Guy 1 from the same post is a good friend of mine. Pic is several years old...
^^^ Well if guy 1 from first post is your friend tell him he is one of the hottest men I've seen.
Wish this thread got more photos.
^fantastic addition. Hard on for both.
^ especially the first guy. Yum.
agreed!! gonna have to now!!!!
This is indeed a hot thread.
i cum so fast when i'm on this thread it's unreal!


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| Gupta, A., Reliance Industries, Ltd., Jamnagar, India; Patil, R. C., Reliance Industries, Ltd., Jamnagar, India; Mishra, V. P., Reliance Industries, Ltd., Jamnagar, India; Das, A. K., Reliance Industries, Ltd., Jamnagar, India
[coker furnace]
[heat flux]
[natural gas]
A delayed coker unit thermally cracks vacuum residue (VR)
and converts it into products like liquefied petroleum gas
(LPG), naphtha, gasoil and petroleum coke. A majority of the
thermal cracking takes place in the coke drum. Coke formed
during the cracking reactions is deposited on the inner tube
surface. As the coke layer grows, resistance to heat transfer
increases. Result: More fuel firing is needed
to maintain the furnace outlet temperature.
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A searchable database of project activity in the global hydrocarbon processing industry
Engineers and designers are highly skilled individuals. Forcing them to enter design changes using tables, forms and spreadsheets is unproductive and uneconomical, and it increases the likelihood of human error—this is the way that most instrumentation software systems currently work. For too long, software vendors have denied engineers and designers the simple practicality of a graphical visual engineering interface with "drag and drop" capability and inbuilt intelligence, ensuring changes are automatically replicated into all the associated data and databases.
Will previously-planned downstream investments be cut back in 2015 due to lower global oil prices?
Depends how long current prices last
July 2015


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Local Tourism Sites and Package Options
"A picture may be worth a thousand words but actually being there is incomparable."
There are many incredible attractions both in the Central Valley of Costa Rica and throughout the country. Our San Jose Airport Hotel is perfectly situated to offer our guests the ability to explore as much or as little of the country directly from our hotel!
Home Base La Rosa
We recognize that planning a trip to a remote destination can be somewhat complicated as every traveler's need and interests are different. We are more than happy to help you with ideas, suggestions and directions. Just ask! At all times, advice is FREE!
Advice and Assistance we are happy to offer:
- How to travel independently via car/SUV
- roads are improving but how to find a reliable car agency?
- road signs… what road signs?!?
- Using a reputable local tourism company – save via a La Rosa Package!
- this is a great way to see many attractions without getting lost
- How to employ a private tour operator
- great for guests with little time to spare
Hotel La Rosa Packages
We have grouped the most popular destinations from our hotel into convenient packages for those preferring a carefree, hassle free day long excursion experience. We recommend these packages to be taken as a HOTEL PACKAGE TOUR so as to save money but they can be taken independently if you wish.
DAY TRIP ONE – THE COMBO TOUR (our most popular)
Combine VOLCAN POAS, LA PAZ WATERFALL GARDENS and the DOKA COFFEE PLANTATION for a real diverse experience all close to Hotel La Rosa de America.
VOLCAN POAS: this 9,000 foot volcano just 35 km from our Hotel is an easy attraction to see in the morning. Boasting two craters, one with a beautiful green pool and the other one active, this Volcano is located within a National Park. There are many hiking trails and an Info Centre. The drive up the side of POAS is especially pretty and has many spectacular viewing locations over the Central Valley and San Jose.
LA PAZ WATERFALL GARDENS: If you like waterfalls, hummingbirds, butterflys, monkeys, frogs and even snakes (in a Serpentarium), this place has it all! It even has an excellent restaurant! Close to POAS Volcano nestled in the stunningly beautiful valley between POAS and BARVA volcanos.
DOKA COFFEE PLANTATION: located on the slopes of POAS Volcano, Doka offers the coffee enthusiast an experience and education into the growing of, and production of coffee in Costa Rica. At Hotel La Rosa de America, we serve Doka Coffee as we believe to to be the best tasting in all of Costa Rica. Doka Coffee Bags make great presents to take home!
Combine VOLCAN IRAZU, OROSI VALLEY and the LANKESTER GARDENS for an adventure filled day on the eastern side of the Central Valley. Due to potential traffic congestion and difficulties with signage, we recommend visiting these sites as part of an organized tour which can be booked at our Hotel.
VOLCAN IRAZU: the largest of the active volcanos shielding the northern approaches to the Central Valley. One can see both the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans from the 12,000 foot heights of this volcano.
OROSI VALLEY: the Shangri-La of Valleys! Known for it's profound beauty and rich volcanic soils, this Valley is carpeted in deep green coffee plantations interspersed with colorful wildflowers and the Rio Reventazon.
LANKESTER GARDENS: for all orchid lovers this is a must! There are over 800 species of orchids here. Many other tropical plants as well can be found throughout the expansive gardens.
Combine VOLCAN ARENAL with stops in SARCHI (where Costa Rica's best wood craftsmen are found), GRECIA (see the all metal church and numerous sugar and coffee fields) and then enjoy a relaxing swim at either Baldi Hot Springs, The Springs Resort or Tabacon Grand Spa and Thermal Resort before heading to the "active" side of ARENAL shortly after sunset to see the pyroclastic molten display through the darkness. (weather dependent) This tour returns to the Central Valley around 10 pm. Pricing is based on your choice of Springs/Spa.
VOLCAN ARENAL: it is said that only one in a million people will ever witness an exploding volcano. At ARENAL, you can, day or night! If the weather permits clear viewing, this Volcano is truly spectacular, especially at night.
SARCHI: this town, about 45 minutes from our Central Valley location is renowned as the home of Costa Rican artisanry. Here you can see the World's largest ox cart and see master carvers at work.
GRECIA: about 30 minutes from Hotel La Rosa, this town boasts the distinction of being "the Cleanest Town in Central America". It also has the World's first all metal church, the result of too many fires in the old wooden one.
More Local Tourist Options and Tours
These above trips can be pre-booked with your reservation at our hotel or upon arrival subject to space availability. We also offer them within packages for your convenience. Other combinations of trips are also possible, see below for some more ideas that are available. Please email us for further details and rate information should you choose to take one of these guided tours.
SAN LORENZO CANOPY TOUR: this Zip Line tour through the tree tops boasts the longest continuous cable in Costa Rica! Set in the mountains north of the Central Valley one will have ample opportunity to see Costa Rica's flora and fauna up close and personal!
SAN LUIS CANOPY TOUR: just minutes from the San Lorenzo Zip Line this tour is buried in the scenic hills enroute to Arenal, and has a Tarzan Swing and a "Superman" zipline as well! Both locations are a little over one hour from Hotel La Rosa.
** WHITE WATER RAFTING: For the more adventure minded we have the thrill of the Pacuare River. This River offers 30 km of Class III and IV rapids as well as stunning scenery. Lunch is served about 2 hours into the "cruise" on the river bank. All operators are very experienced and safety is paramount to their operations. Note: we think this experience is Awesome!!
* SAN JOSE CITY TOUR: this is a half day tour. See the bustling city of San Jose from the comfort of your microbus. Great way to see the main sites without getting lost or searching for parking!! Includes La Sabana Park, the National Theater and usually the Gold or Jade Museum depending on the day.
* POAS HALF DAY: This tour is for people who only wish to visit POAS VOLCANO. It can be taken in the morning (recommended) or afternoon (not recommended due to weather).
RAINFOREST AERIAL TRAM: buried on the eastern slopes of Braulio Carrillo National Park, the Aerial Tram is a nature lover's best way to see a mature jungle from within the tree tops. Jungle flora and fauna varies tremendously from forest floor to canopy top and with the Aerial tram quietly drifting through the trees, one can see and hear much, much more.
** RAINFOREST 3-1 TOUR: this all day tour is an extremely cost effective package. It includes a jungle river cruise on the beautiful Sarapiqui River, guided nature walks (including a hanging suspension bridge) in Selva Verde Lodge and then finishes up with entrance to the Rainforest Aerial Tram mentioned above.
** THE REAL TORTUGUERO: this is an all day tour which takes you through San Jose, over the Continental Divide and down into the Caribbean Flat lands and on into the Tortuguero canals. Includes guaranteed entry to the Park, a canal ride, visit to the information centre and a tour of turtle nesting areas accompanied by a park naturalist. This tour involves a lengthy bus ride from the Central Valley.
** BAY ISLANDS CRUISE TO ISLA TORTUGA: Isla Tortuga is a beautiful sun-drenched island off the south coast of the Nicoya Peninsula on the Pacific side of Costa Rica. Here, stunning scenery combine with beautiful beaches and azure warm waters. This location is great for SCUBA or snorkeling. The tour includes yacht transportation from Puntaranas as well as sun-tanning, and lunch on board the yacht as it cruises past the Bay Islands in the Gulf of Nicoya enroute to Isla Tortuga.
BEST OF THE PACIFIC: This tour option visits the Rio Tarcoles to cruise on the river and see the scores of crocodiles that are always present! As this is a river delta, migratory birds abound as well. Afterwords, the tour moves on to Punta Leona Resort where you can enjoy a Costa Rican Blue Flag Beach.
* tours with one asterisk will receive a discount if booked within a hotel package as they are only half day tours.
** tours with two asterisks may carry a small surcharge if booked within a hotel package due to the extra cost of the tour.
The above options are just ideas to give you a starting point to plan the best vacation possible. Many other less touristy options exist as well such as waterfall rappelling, spelunking (caving), and hiking. Costa Rica is an adventurer's paradise so if you have a question, just ask and we will try to help!


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Bags > Betty Sue Flap Crossbody
Sale: $27.30
Reg: $39.00
Betty Sue Flap Crossbody
model #: 106150
The Betty Sue collection pays tribute to the red, white and blue! The newest shapes feature stars and stripes in our hand-crocheted fabrications.
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I'd rather keep all the disease, aging, and the like.
I gotta tell you... I've always been pretty happy with myself. I have no desire to
get plastic surgery or the like to make "improvements". But if I could eliminate
disease, aging, and the like? I'd do it in a ****ing heartbeat. If I could get
stronger bones, better eyesight, etc? I'd do it without hesitation.
Call our existence whatever you like... but if our design is "perfect" according
to some Higher Being, then that Being is a dumbass. Give me immortality
and a space ship and I'll be a happy man.
Because it is precisely those things that make human stronger.
P.S. BTW, you think those pharmaceutical industry will let it happen? Without disease??? Man we can't milk the patients of their money.


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Moderators: Jason, Toothy, Tonyblack
poohcarrot wrote:You and you soon-to-be Mrs should come to Japan and be assistant teachers in a Junior High School for a couple of years to get some pennies saved up.
If you've both got degrees, should be no problem.
poohcarrot wrote:Dotsie, you don't have to speak in a supermarket, you know.
Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], Sister Jennifer and 7 guests


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Most Recent Posts
PAMM | Pérez Art Museum Miami
Adler Guerrier Opening Celebration and Artist Talk
On Thursday, August 7, 2014 at Pérez Art Museum Miami (PAMM), guests toasted in celebration of the opening of Haitian-born, Miami-based Adler Guerrier's first solo museum exhibition, Adler Guerrier: Formulating a Plot.
Help Patricia and Phillip Frost Museum of Science's Upward Bound Program win $50,000
Pérez Art Museum Miami's future neighbor, Patricia and Phillip Frost Museum of Science, is one of 10 finalists for the Lincoln Financial Group's Legacy Award. Vote to help them win the $50,000 award! Voting ends on Thursday, September 4, 2014.
PAMM Discusses Arts Education with The Miami Herald
The Miami Herald spoke with Emily Mello, Pérez Art Museum Miami deputy director for education and public programs, about extending arts education beyond the museum's walls to underserved communities throughout Miami-Dade County.
YEMENWED: FIRE + ICE at PAMM
On June 12, 2014, members of the art collective Yemenwed discussed each of their roles within the group, as well as the role of "space" in their past projects; that which is imagined, virtual, sonic, and also physical.
Watch Adler Guerrier Discuss His Exhibition Formulating a Plot
Pérez Art Museum Miami (PAMM) presents Formulating a Plot, the first solo museum exhibition for artist Adler Guerrier, surveying 15 years of work across diverse media. Guerrier's oeuvre is expansive in its engagement with the urban environment, art history and materials and this exhibition will bring together a selection of work from the last decade of his career alongside new work produced for this presentation.
Adler Guerrier: Formulating a Plot runs from August 7, 2014 – January 25, 2015


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Oct 10, 2007
FIRST LEGO League team blogs out there?
Today, I ran across four (German-speaking) blogs in the web where FIRST LEGO League teams regularly blog on their experiences and progress in respect to the upcoming FLL "Power Puzzle" competition.
Do you know of other FLL-related blogs out there?
Addendum: There has been a similar posting on THE NXT STEP in May (with some links in comments), but that was for the "Nano Quest" then. There might be additional ones now (for instance, in Germany the attendance marked a new record on the number of participating teams for the actual FLL competition - no less than 101 up to 460!).
8 comments:
- Cesar de Camargo Barscevicius said...
Hello !
I maintain a team blog here in Brazil, in Portuguese. The blog name is "The NXT Brasil"
( www.thenxtbrasil.blogspot.com ) inspirited in "The NXT Step".
My team number, I still don't know, but the team name is "Free Access". We went to Atlanta, last year representing our Country.
- Oct 10, 2007, 1:34:00 AM
- Lipécz said...
This is the webpage of my team. We created this webpage with photoshop and Editplus. http://roboys.extra.hu
- Oct 10, 2007, 6:29:00 AM
- NXTMonger said...
We have a HTML based website at:
- Oct 10, 2007, 1:06:00 PM
- Team Brick said...
my FLL team Bricktron's website and blog
check us out!
- Oct 12, 2007, 12:54:00 PM
- GeekyTom said...
here's our site which has a blog for public viewing and a members only blog for team members and their families.
Bricks For Brains
- Oct 13, 2007, 3:32:00 AM
- Eric D. Burdo said...
nxtmonger - that's an interesting method for changing out between missions. How is it working for your team?
- Oct 15, 2007, 7:15:00 AM
My team has an engineering blog on their website. But it's for internal use mostly. You can register to see more. The site is Drupal based (one of my older kids learned how to manage it) and they also put almost all of the content up there.
- Nov 5, 2007, 12:09:00 AM
- NXTMonger said...
It's working great, Eric! We got to state on our score of 275.
- Jan 15, 2008, 2:13:00 PM