text:
- Robert Winner
- Joseph City, AZ
- United States
This conversation is closed.
Would you eat "in vitro" meat?
Dutch biologist Mark Post says he can make a lab grown hamburger available by the end of the year.
What would be the impacts world wide of have lab grown meat?
Deborah Hoad
Jan 21 2012: Personally I have no ethical problem with eating animals. I would like to see people move towards near-vegetarianism (people need far less meat than they tend to consume, in order to get all the iron/protein/other good stuff they need that meat supplies well) and the meat industry become more like a niche market, providing meat more locally in quantities that would make it easy to house and slaughter the animals humanely. And if we ate so much less of it, it wouldn't be such a problem that organically, humanely produced meat would cost more (staying local would help lower the cost). In those tiny quantities, meat-eating would also have far less inpact on the environment in terms of things like land or water use.
- +2
I see lab-grown meat as a complete waste of resources and scientific talent. If you love the taste of meat, but don't want to kill animals to eat, it's time to either get over your love of meat, or investigate meat-flavoured substitutes. I really don't think that anyone needs meat so badly that we have to resort to frankenfood burger options.
Jan 24 2012: Your second paragraph unfortunately highlights what David Croxton wrote above: "use it to feed people not to make money". In my opinion the only reason scientist are heading this way is actually under heavy investments from the food processing companies (not meat packers) who see a way to:
a. Even more cheaply create a supply of meat that they can fully control and can generate huge revenue.
b. Take over meat packers' market share by highlighting the more humane nature of their product.
Jan 24 2012: But that's just it, Jonathon. If our goal is to feed people, encouraging vegetarianism, or at least more vegetarian diets, is the way to go. The meat industry uses grain and other resources (like water) that can be used to feed a much, much greater number of people than animals (or eventually meat eaters). If we don't shift our paradigm to one of LESS meat, not just DIFFERENTLY PRODUCED meat, there will still be a resource problem. Imagine the resources needed to grow enough meat in labs if the consumer demand for meat remains as high as it is now. If we work to reduce customer demand for meat, either solution (animals or frankenburgers) will be less resource consuming. But in the end, why bother with the second option? People don't NEED meat. They certainly don't need it in the quantities they consume right now. In fact, that quantity of meat consumption by some is reducing their level of health.Jan 24 2012: By the way, I assume you meant humane, not human. A more human product could really get them in trouble. :):)Jan 27 2012: Why be opposed to meat when it is grown like a plant.
You talk about the benefits of a vegan diet and automatically assume meat is antithesis to that. Why?
Why assume a more scientific approach to meat production will not solve the problems you see and bring meat on par with your vision of veggies?
What is the difference between a lab (greenhouse) grown tomato and a lab grown hamburger?
Jan 27 2012: The difference is that tomatoes already grow all by themselves. All you are doing in a greenhouse is recreating their natural environment. Lab grown meat is a much different prospect, because you are producing it in a completely different way to the way it is produced naturally. Which means that a LOT of research, experimentation, development and RESOURCES will be needed in order to make it happen. I just think it's a waste of time and resources for an unneeded outcome. Science doesn't have to run off and provide for our every whim (in this case to have our animal flesh and protect the animal too, so we don't feel bad).
I think the better choice is to simply reduce our consumption of meat and focus our time and resources on more beneficial R&D projects, where the resource investment will produce a better outcome than lab burgers.
And for the record, I am not opposed to eating animals at all. I am strongly in favour of moving towards a more vegetarian diet, where the AMOUNT of meat people consume is greatly reduced. Not only would this reduce the use of resources like land and water, but it is mass production that has encouraged the development of the most morally reprehensible animal husbandry and slaughter practices. Small scale farming facilitates humane treatment of animals.
Sure, lab meat might satisfy those morally opposed to killing animals for their meat at all, but I just think we don't need it. Just eat less meat. If you're morally opposed to killing animals for food, eat no meat. If you believe it's wrong to use animal products, become a vegan. But we don't need lab meat. IMO there are so many higher priorities.
Jan 27 2012: "Simply reduce our consumption of meat"
I don't think there's anything simple about that fact, it would require society itself to radically change. Most people are happy to just eat what they know they like, and if they like, they'll continue to eat lots of it.
Lab meat may be a way of reducing the environmental impact of the enormous meat consumption in the short term. If hamburgers can be grown on demand in a lab then we won't have loads of cows farting their global warming into the atmosphere and there obviously won't be as much waste.
I don't claim to know the exact difference between the environmental impact of loads of scientists science-ing up some beef and loads of cows being generally cow-ish, but it seems that the sheer amount of farming required to produce as much meat as is being consumed is using far too many resources, which is a point I agree with you on.
I think lab meat may be a short term solution to the problem of epic resource consumption, but the long term solution would obviously be a reduction in the amount of meat eaten.
henk doorlag
Jan 27 2012: meat grows by it self as well - you're just replacing the rest of the animal with a pertri dish of nutrients. A lot of research, experimentation and resources have been spend to generate the "perfect", germ and disease resistant, high yield product you buy in the supermarket.
- +1
It's not about having our animal flesh and eat it too (to me), it's about generating basic nutrients for people without access to the carefully balanced and genetically selected veggies required to survive on a meatless diet. It's about efficiency of production.
Yes, the better choice is to reduce consumption (of just about everything, including meat). Unfortunately, you fall into the trap of thinking it's a choice of "either/or". Either we do research which benefits (what you think is important) or we squander resources. Research is always additive. Research is never wasted, as long as it adds to knowledge.
Even if we choose not to eat meat anymore, your lab burger project may one day allow us to grow replacement kidneys and livers (both delicious when well prepared!) that can safe lives (before they're cooked)Jan 27 2012: Alex: Yes, but that's a lot of trouble to go to for a short term solution. And it isn't so radical a change. It's change I just made personally - going from eating meat usually more than once a day, to eating it maybe three times a week (usually when I'm out). I have basically the same diet as before, except that I eat eggs and legumes more as my protein. I already loved eating vegetables and grains, so it's really just a matter of leaving out the meat. I know I can get all the nutrients I need from meat by eating about 500g of it a week, so three meals that include meat is working out fine. I guess I treat meat now the way I treat chocolate. I like the taste a lot, but having it every day is unnecessary (and unhealthy).
henk: maybe the research will prove useful for some other reason, though frankenburgers aren't quite the same as clone kidneys (but I take your point). In fact it's probably true to say that the idea of lab-grown meat probably wouldn't even exist if weren't for that kind of cloning technology, so I think the research chain probably goes the other way.
Guys, we just disagree. I see it as a waste of time and resources and you don't. That's fine.
Feb 1 2012: well, you disagree because you think that people shouldn't eat as much meat as they should right now. It's great that you are making healthy choices for yourself, eating less meat. But why should your belief be imposed on other people?
Even if it is relatively unhealthy, are we really going to impose a blanket diet on everyone? why stop there? let's ban smoking too!
If they like eating meat, and producing meat costs us both economically and environmentally, then it wouldn't be a waste to look for more efficient ways to produce the meat in demand.
Also, as the world's population continues to grow, we need to make it more efficient to produce protein. We can't rely on legumes and eggs, even if the world suddenly forgoes their appetite for meat.Feb 1 2012: Elmer: I wasn't suggesting that we forceably put everyone on a particular diet - certainly not that everyone copy my eating habits. I said that I think encouraging people to reduce their meat consumption (by giving them all the information on its impact, and by making rules that demand humane treatment of farm animals (in how they are housed, fed, and slaughtered) which is fair, but would also reduce demand by increasing the price). I only gave the information on my own changing diet as an example of how I thought it would be really difficult for people to change those habits (which is what others are arguing) but actually I was really surprised as how easy it was. As long as I eat meat a couple of times a week I don't miss it at other times. That surprised me and it made me realise that there are probably a lot of people who could reduce the amount of meat they eat without feeling any hardship from doing so. I never suggested imposing that on anyone else. I'm talking about people choosing to reduce their meat consumption and just saying I think it could happen, especially if we focus on that kind of education instead of wasting time on frankenburgers.Jan 27 2012: Lab grown meat . OK sounds Nice .
Deborah "I see lab-grown meat as a complete waste of resources and scientific talent. " Why?
I love the taste of meat,and i don't have any problem killing chicken . But still its a nice invention . It may produce cost effective meat some time or may need less resources to produce meat.. Isn't that good.
"If our goal is to feed people, encouraging vegetarianism, or at least more vegetarian diets, is the way to go. "
I know PETA has created some awareness of vegetarianism. But I think its never possible. as Asia and La America economy gets stronger they will be more affectionate to non veg. Meat consumption will increase day by day . And i think synthetic meat can be a solution.
Jan 27 2012: I agree, it could. I just think it's a bad, resource-wasting solution. I think it will take an enormous amount of time and money to develop before it becomes cost efficent.
The way we eat has changed a lot over time. There's no reasont hat more meat HAS to become the norm, in any society. Encouraging and promoting a more vegetarian diet through education could prevent the need for lab-grown meat to be developed at all.
Jan 27 2012: The reason human civilization has grown so fast because they alwasy want more. Ya its true that if US becomes vegeterian africa wont have any food problem. It is not impossible also but its improbable.
The 8 or 9 neuclear power country spen so much on military budget that can feed whole asia or africa.
So I think rather than trying to make people vegan trying to produce cost and resource effetive synthetic meat will be more feasibl.Jan 28 2012: "produce cost and resource effetive synthetic meat"
It's not synthetic meat. It's actually animal flesh. It's just never been part of a whole animal.Jan 28 2012: Deborah, as passionately as you feel about vegetarianism... and despite the fact that it's quite a populous movement...
If we're to be honest with ourselves, you guys would have an easier time shifting mountains with shovels than changing current planetary food consumption habits through... what really amounts to chastisement. If vegetarian alternatives became superior to meat options in a number of factors including taste and cost, you'd have a much easier time convincing people.
Falling short of that, vat grown meat is definitely a worthwhile avenue of exploration. We should be concerned about the ways in which it could be exploited... but vigilance should just be that - rather than outright fear mongering or outright emotional rejection of a product of which many details are still 'undefined'.
Jan 28 2012: I think it's possible that lab grown meat could be a more humane alternative (for those who believe that killing animals for food is wrong (I don't)) but I think it would take a long time to be cost efficient. Can paying lab techs to farm meat under safe lab conditions actually be cheaper than having a cow stand in a field eating grass? (I know US cows are often grain fed, but they're not here in Australia.)
And people already love vegetarian food. They just usually eat it with meat next to it. :)
Jan 29 2012: >And people already love vegetarian food. They just usually eat it with meat next to it. :)
Try walking into a restaraunt and telling people you'll be replacing their meat with extra servings of veggies.
Try the opposite. I think you'll start to come to a realization as to the sort of entrenched social/cultural/emotional attachment we have to the taste of meat.Jan 28 2012: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45257771/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/first-lab-grown-burger-coming-right-thatll-be/
The details - very expensive, and at the moment, pretty unappetising.
Jan 29 2012: It's a tad disingenious to think that the proof of concept prototypes that they're making right now will be representative in anyway of whatever final product that these companies wish to trot out. It's more likely that unless they can find a marketable form (right taste/texture/price) these products will never see the day of light.
Of course, I wouldn't doubt for a moment that they'll release it at high prices to see if the market can bear it - marketing it as new ethical meat. I'm sure it'll do well with just moralistic vegetarians to begin with!Jan 29 2012: I wasn't offering it as any kind of evidence, or assuming the final product will be exactly the same - just providing more detail on where they're up to. I mostly posted it for the details on the cost, because it's relevant to what I was saying about it being a waste of research and development resources.
Jan 29 2012: If they make a feasible product, then how could it possibly be a waste of research and development?
If they don't, then how would they know how feasible it is without doing the R&D to figure that out?
It's only a waste if the product or idea is redundant or unfeasible in the first place - but the idea of vat grown meat is appealing to many of us. And rationally assessing it, there's plenty of logical and rational reasons for us to move in this direction - less energy/calories per gram of meat, more ethical, better quality control (in theory), able to genetically engineer relevant nutrition into the product (more omega-3 fats for example).
Of course, it's always worth bearing in mind the current condition of the research so that we don't get too ahead of ourselves - but if we're been honest here, that's not exactly what you're doing Deborah. By your own admission no less - you're proffering it up as a relevant example (if that isn't evidence, I don't know what is) of why it's 'a waste of research and development resources.'Jan 29 2012: George. I will try to be clearer. It would also be great if you could not deliberately misunderstand. You said it was 'disingenious to think that the proof of concept prototypes that they're making right now will be representative in anyway of whatever final product...' In reply to that point, I said I wasn't offering it up as evidence of, or assuming, a final product in its current form. The part where I said I thought it was relevant was to do with the enormous cost.
The reason I think it's a waste of R&D is, using your terms, I think the product is, though perhaps feasible, also redundant. We don't need a lab to produce meat. But we might need it to produce meat in sufficient quantities to meet growing demand. IF WE WANT TO MEET DEMAND. I think the better answer is to work at reducing demand. The way to do this is to not only educate people as to the environmental and resource impact of the meat industry, but also to make much stricter laws relating to the humane treatment of animals. The reason demand can be as high as it is, is because meat is so cheap (especially meat supplied for fast food). But it can only be that cheap while appalling standards remain. (Yes, I watched Food, Inc recently. :)) Changing the standards will make meat more expensive, which will drive down demand. And if our concern here is the animals (as people want lab-grown meat to avoid killing animals) those standards are a great first step anyway.
Jan 29 2012: What does the large cost of a prototype have to do with anything though? Prototypes of anything just cost a lot. Research and development just costs a lot. The only way to follow the logic that is been implied by what you've written is that the enormous cost of the prototype and R&D makes the final product not viable. But it's a faulty argument to make - because the end product and it's potential effect is massive and desirable.
It is unfortunate that it takes our food industries so much energy and resources to produce the 'natural' meat that we consume so readily. On the other hand, protein and meat in general has great value as a source of nutrition; both macro and micro. Indeed, a protein heavy diet is generally more in line with our body function than the current carb and grain heavy diet that modern culture focuses on (largely due to pragmatic factors such as cost).
In that sense, I would reject the notion that we should seek to reduce the demand of meat products. While we can certainly espouse a more balanced diet with increased vegetable load, replacing protein calories from animal sources with carbs and solely plant sourced proteins is not just ineffective, but potentially hazardous for population health and nutrition.
At this point in time, in-vitro meat of course has a much higher cost and probably doesn't pass the taste test for many - but that's why R&D is required. The promise of a cheaper, more ethical meat source is of too great a promise to ignore.
Ideally, in the not too distant future, in-vitro meat is a viable protein alternative to traditionally grown animal meat; one thing that can be done to make it sooner is to have the externality costs of the animal meat better represented - it'll bring the in-vitro meat to parity with traditional animal meat quicker.
Another thing that can be done is for us to explore additional protein sources, including bugs and insects.Jan 29 2012: "Try the opposite. I think you'll start to come to a realization as to the sort of entrenched social/cultural/emotional attachment we have to the taste of meat."
Yep, true. Society is capable of change - also true.
Jan 29 2012: Yes... society is capable of change.
Some changes are easier than others.
And some changes still, are practically impossible.
I would focus my energies on making changes that are easy and possible over focusing on tasks that are nigh on impossible.Jan 29 2012: "But it's a faulty argument to make - because the end product and it's potential effect is massive and desirable."
We disagree on that.
"Indeed, a protein heavy diet is generally more in line with our body function than the current carb and grain heavy diet that modern culture focuses on"
Incorrect. While we are omnivores, our digestive system is more similar to those of herbivores than carnivores. And all the unhealthy fats are animal fats.
"I would reject the notion that we should seek to reduce the demand of meat products...replacing protein calories from animal sources with carbs and solely plant sourced proteins is not just ineffective, but potentially hazardous for population health and nutrition."
'Reducing the demand for meat' and 'replacing animal protein with carbs and solely plant sourced proteins' are not the same the same thing, and I never advocated for erasing meat from our diets. I have consistently argued for people consuming the amount of meat we actually need to get all of the nutrients meat is good at providing, which is a piece of meat the size of the pad of the hand (the fleshy part next to the thumb on the palm) about three times a week. In my experience that is about 500g of meat per week. I think we should reduce demand by encouraging people to enjoy only the amount of meat they actually need, by education and by increasing the cost of meat to decrease demand.
"The promise of a cheaper, more ethical meat source is of too great a promise to ignore."
Again, we disagree on that. I don't believe it will ever be cheaper than the $1-$5 burgers McDonalds sells, which is a massive component of meat over-consumption in Western societies. Also, as I've already stated, I don't agree that humane animal husbandry and slaughter is unethical.
And in-vitro meat production is, apparently, possible, but it can hardly be considered easy. I'd also argue that getting people to embrace any product clearly identifiable as lab meat will also not be easy.Jan 29 2012: And George, let me make it clear that I understand that some people DO regard killing animals for food as unethical. But I don't think it should be stand as a given in this discussion, especially as most of the population DON'T have an ethical problem with eating animals. I consider it unlikely that in-vitro meat, even if successfully produced, will replace farm-grown meat anytime soon, because most people don't consider the goal of saving animals' lives important. If they did, massive meat consumption wouldn't be the norm.
In fact, you've said that swapping to lab meat is the change that is 'easy and possible'. I don't think that would be any easier than convincing people to eat less meat, especially if the cost of lab meat never becomes genuinely cheap, and certainly not if the texture and taste of lab meat never really approximates the meat people enjoy the most, which is not just burgers, but also quite different and delicious things like steak and roast chicken and pork crackling.
Also, the lab meat is grown from stem cells from leftover bits at slaughter houses, so animals did die to produce the meat he is currently cultivating.. Will that be self-perpetuating after it begins, or will the process require fresh stem cells from time to time? If the latter, then people who eshew meat-eating on the grounds that killing animals for food is wrong should be cautious about seeing in-vitro meat as an ethical alternative.
Jan 30 2012: I'll let you have the last word Deborah. But I should let you know, in case you take silence as some sort of tacit agreement - that I remain wholly unconvinced by your arguments.Jan 30 2012: Duly noted. :)
Sojung Yun
Feb 2 2012: Wow so many replies to your comment; I just want to say that I agree with you. Eating an animal is not something we should oppress too much like vegans say. The problem is in the cruel animal raising industry and the environmental problems that are caused by too many animals. What's important is that we should reduce our meat consume, not that we should cut it completely which is impossible. Oh, and my opinion to the question is "I would not". I see no need in it.Jan 17 2012: Absolutely yes, particularly if I grew it myself. While I'm at it, I might grow some spare body parts to have on hand in case I lose a foot while mowing the lawn or something.
- +1
Jan 20 2012: The home biolab, we can only hope :) I can print 3d in plastic, but I'm looking forward to the day when I can print in DNA.Jan 27 2012: Why not ?
Are we not eating already ?
Chickens we are eating now a days are genetically modified already....... thats "in vivo " I know ....
But what's the difference if those are same amino acid or fat.....
Well psychological barrier will be there for some people for sometime but if marketed well it will get it's space.
Remember once people were reluctant to take hybrid vegetables , used to say those are less tasety than natural vegetables.... even hybrids were costly than natural varieties...
Now it's other way... hybrids are cheap and natural varieties costly with a new name ORGANIC......It's a cycle....seems
Impact ?
Less killing of natural animals or even genetically modified ones....
Terrey West
Jan 18 2012: I certainly would, however, I worry about the "science fiction" concerns of progress.
- +1
The only reason that cows, pigs, sheep, and chickens are not endangered, is that they are domesticated, and profitable as sources of food. I worry that removal of our reliance on any major land mammal or marine animal as a staple food source will eventually cause their extinction as our species overpopulates the globe.
We will certainly need lab-grown sources of high-protein food once we leave the planet, and lab-grown meat would be an option, but why not soy beans? They are hardy and will grow just about anywhere.
In the end, I'm concerned about the collapse of commerce, the collapse of the food web, and our lack of attachment to nature, should something go awry and force us to lean on our skills rather than our technology.
The fact that we are talking about in-vitro meat as a viable economic option tells me that something is very wrong with our society, and I think the heart of the problem lies in our population. Human overpopulation is the real elephant in the room. Sure, our planet can support maybe another 8 billion human beings on top of what we have, but at what cost? Is it a cost we are willing to take? To do so might very well destroy the biological diversity of our planet.
As for eating it, sure. If it bleeds, I'll eat it.
Jan 20 2012: There are different kinds of efficiency, depending on what performance factor you're attempting to maximize. Urban Homestead grows 6000 pounds of food and feeds a family of four on a suburban lot in Southern California (about 1/10th an acre), and they do it sustainably and organically. I'm not so worried about overpopulation, as to the consequences of maximizing the wrong performance factor - which is what we're dealing with right now.
The human population will stabilize just below the maximum sustainability limit, and then probably decline from there in the long run. This is inevitable; it's just how nature works. Where that limit is found, and what mechanism creates it, is largely up to individual human beings to determine. Will it be found and sustained through violence and conflict, or through peaceful individual action? Who will participate in each form, and how will they be affected by the other? What will be left of non-human life on this planet when the dust settles?
To me, this whole vat meat thing symbolizes people looking into the future toward a peaceful answer - one in which technology is used to keep people fed while meeting their preferences. It is only one answer; biointensive organic agriculture of the kind practiced by the Urban Homesteaders is another. Both appear to be valid, and both have their problems. The former is energy-expensive and creates central points of failure; the latter requires a great deal of constant menial labor and attention that cannot be externalized or delegated. Most other paths involve violence - either petty but pervasive violence of government enforcement of population limits and rationing, or mass violence as an increasing number of people fight over a decreasing amount of resources until enough have died to return to a level of sustainability.Jan 20 2012: They do say that our population is going to be maximized in the next 50 years and then start declining. It's been a long haul. What will happen after that? Won't we experience the contraction? Everyone says social security will be the problem. Whatever the solutions are, I agree that we'll choose from our available preferences, but will we have the same availability of choices for that efficiency? I don't think we should over-look the benefits of the technology when we can implement it now. I believe whatever we choose can and should be a little more guided than just a natural process. As human beings we can popularize ideas and they shape the course of the world. Being passive about these technological opportunities leaves us open to our greatest shortfalls. The truth is that as long as wildernesses are shrinking world wide, we aren't sustainable. And even if we do promote the technology, if we don't also strongly promote the reason why then we're still heading towards a sterilized planet as a previous comment suggests. It's due to natural selection of our species; the technology we choose is a part of that, but we can be smart about it.
We had a renaissance! What came from this was science and the arts. But most over-looked was freedom of choice and the pursuit of happiness. Hundreds of years later the fight for freedom of choice goes on, but now we need to make more informed decisions. For life to be beautiful one of the things we need is for the world to be beautiful, but we're too busy competing with ourselves everyday and education lacks instilling of values. We need another renaissance now that we have these awesome discussions about technology.Jan 10 2012: I would not have a problem with in vitro meat... if the taste is good & if it is (at least) as nourishing as regular meat.
It could decrease carbon-footprint and be quite cheap to produce...
Other than that, Insects are already a very good form of animal protein source, very healthy, nutritious and tasty.
And it has quite the same advantages as the in vitro meats could have.Jan 7 2012: This question is to vague.... what is te means of production? who is profiting? has the method been tested? assuming that the meat was say cultured natural muscle and had not been genetically modified, or if modified it had endured a long exhaustive test series, and if some portion of the profits made by selling this meat went to support the people who had depended on raising animals for meat at least for the life time of the now obsolete rancher, then I can think of no reason not to. I assume that the cost in energy and reinforces would be less than existing methods?
Jan 9 2012: Thanks for your response. See Timothy Sallume's response below. The site he refers to gives specific cost savings and other information that may answer your questions. Thanks.Jan 6 2012: I think the real question is what wouldn't you eat. Few of us in the western world have ever really been hungry. True hunger where you have nothing to eat for long periods of time, In that case what wouldn't you eat? I have a feeling that when it came down to it, I would eat what is available. A hamburger is a hamburger when you are hungry.
Jan 9 2012: Amalia, you pose a second question of what wouldn't we eat if we were really hungry? The military has "survival schools" that instruct in exactly this issue. Basically living off off the land and "suviving". There are classes available in most states by survival companies. I attended one in the military and ate things not normally considered "eatable". We are lucky not to have to face that problem in the US. But the boy scout motto of "Be Prepared" is a good rule. Some food storage and a little knowledge of survival techniques is always advisable. Good luck and thanks for answering.
edward long
Jan 5 2012: Robert, I see you are a Winner by birth!
- +1
The geniuses who grow this stuff won't eat it (http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2009-11/dutch-scientists-grow-first-vitro-pork) and you want to know if I will? Not until they do.
Jan 6 2012: point well takenFeb 3 2012: I would like to take a few lines to tell you all how amazing this technology is. I am in agreement with Henk. It is a lot like the next phase of evolution in agriculture. I don't see any downside for vegetarians or anyone else for that matter. There is a lot of American backlash to the amount of available nutrition in modern countries. How short sighted. Unless you belong to one of these privileged countries you don't have the option of not eating meat. Is there a growing trend of people not eating meat? Arguably no. It's not really even close to catching up to the world's population growth. Listen to me. The world needs more meat in the worst possible way. Call it a genetic disorder of ours.
I don't necessarily see it as being overly energy wasting either. It just depends on how well they can get it to grow. We'll see. It will need some heat optimally, so they'll insulate; and the circulation of broth is needed to nourish the cells; but it won't need the most energy wasting thing to grow which is light. If it passes taste tests, the value of the yields would be greater than the expenditures. We should never ignore or consider genetic innovation a waste of time and talent. It will always be something new and terrifying to antiprogressives, but progress isn't such a bad thing. Did you know there is also some attempt to genetically produce faster growing trees? What do we need to help these? Political bandwidth for policy on economic support, until it's economically sustainable.
So just love the idea guys. Or stay outta the way. It's absolutely brilliant in my opinion. Do you think no one reads these conversations? Genetic innovations can give us the ability to save our world one day. What is needed is a good promotion after this research comes to fruition. So I hope everyone tells McDonalds to start making all their hamburgers this way. Frankenfood is just a buzz word that doesn't describe anything about the technology except that it is in fact technology.Feb 1 2012: Are there any nurtritionists or doctors out there who can offer informed comment about the argument that when people are fully grown, you need NO added protein in your diet but can obtain all you need from just fruit and vegetables? I have read soundly produced argument that says that when excess of protein is excreted it drags calcium from your body with it, thus depleting skeleton and increasing risks of osteoporosis etc.Jan 29 2012: George. I will try to be clearer. It would also be great if you could not deliberately misunderstand. You said it was 'disingenious to think that the proof of concept prototypes that they're making right now will be representative in anyway of whatever final product...' In reply to that point, I said I wasn't offering it up as evidence of, or assuming, a final product in its current form. The part where I said I thought it was relevant was to do with the enormous cost.
The reason I think it's a waste of R&D is, using your terms, I think the product is, though perhaps feasible, also redundant. We don't need a lab to produce meat. But we might need it to produce meat in sufficient quantities to meet growing demand. IF WE WANT TO MEET DEMAND. I think the better answer is to work at reducing demand. The way to do this is to not only educate people as to the environmental and resource impact of the meat industry, but also to make much stricter laws relating to the humane treatment of animals. The reason demand can be as high as it is, is because meat is so cheap (especially meat supplied for fast food). But it can only be that cheap while appalling standards remain. (Yes, I watched Food, Inc recently. :)) Changing the standards will make meat more expensive, which will drive down demand. And if our concern here is the animals (as people want lab-grown meat to avoid killing animals) those standards are a great first step anyway.Jan 29 2012: I have given this a lot of thought in the past year.
There is something about me (either memetically or biologically) that can not tolerate a vegetarian lifestyle. I am not one of those "I did not claw myself to the top of the food chain to.." people... but I am descended from them. There is clearly something important about meat in the diet of most people-- and there are certainly some compounds and amino acids (importance unknown) that are not available anywhere else.
For me, my pull for vegetarianism is not so much about the animal (though I love animals, I also sadly admit that my ancestors have bred certain animals to aspire to be great food, and my ancestors have also left me with a genetic and memetic system optimized for those animals fulfilling on their destiny), but it is in recognition that one, we are eating far more meat than we need (to that point, I am beyond overweight, and I can have as much meat as my body demands and my wallet affords: a LOT of meat), and TWO the amount of meat I am eating is taking an extraordinary amount of energy to bring to my mouth.
I happened upon the movie "Collapse" last year. Regardless of what you think of the guy in the film, or any of the other topics, seeing the film did stun me into realizing how many calories are BEHIND the calories I actually eat. And, done irresponsibly, the ratio is hundreds or thousands to one in terms of the calories you're actually using.
Marry that up to one gallon of gasoline being about 30,000 calories-- and it starts to get awkwardly uncomfortable.Jan 28 2012: This link gives a good explantion of the details of the lab-grown meat experiment. Some facts I found relevant:
The first lab-grown hamburger will cost around 250,000 euros ($345,000) to produce.
"The first one will be a proof of concept, just to show it's possible," Post told Reuters..."I believe I can do this in the coming year."
It may sound and look like some kind of imitation, but in-vitro or cultured meat is a real animal flesh product, just one that has never been part of a complete, living animal.
Using stem cells harvested from leftover animal material from slaughterhouses, Post nurtures them with a feed concocted of sugars, amino acids, lipids, minerals and all other nutrients they need to grow in the right way.
So far he has produced whitish pale musclelike strips, each of them around 2.5 centimeters (1 inch) long, less than a centimeter wide and so thin as to be almost see-through.
Pack enough of these together — probably around 3,000 of them in layers — throw in a few strips of lab-grown fat, and you have the world's first "cultured meat" burger, he says.
"This first one will be grown in an academic lab, by highly trained academic staff," he said. "It's handmade and it's time- and labor-intensive. That's why it's so expensive to produce."
Not to mention a little unappetizing. Since Post's in-vitro meat contains no blood, it lacks color. At the moment, it looks a bit like the flesh of scallops, he says.
My original answer to the question was 'no'. After reading this article, my answer is now, 'hell, no!'
Jan 29 2012: Sorry for cross posting. But you posted this link above as response... and reading this post, I don't know how you can with a straight face say that this isn't intended as some sort of 'evidence against' the idea of in-vitro meat.
But as above - it's disingenious to post this video/article as representative of something *other* than the current state of research and development. To that end - it doesn't matter how you feel about it as it currently is - because that's not the meat you'll have access to in the market.
A more interesting discussion would rotate around the idea of - what level of progress would be required with in-vitro meat before you could seriously contemplate 1. eating it occasionally or more, 2. replacing traditional meat sources with it.
For some, maybe yourself, it's possible that your emotional objections may always outweigh any amount of progress the meat can make - but it's still a question worth discussing in a public forum like this one.
Jan 29 2012: Oh my god, please listen. It WAS intended as evidence of the COST of the R&D. It was NOT intended as evidence of the final product. Because it isn't the final product. And I never said it was.
How are my objections emotional?
If in-vitro meat becomes my only option, I may eat it. But I eat little meat right now, so it might not be worth the cost for me. I would miss meat if it went away, but it wouldn't be overly upsetting. I don't support replacing traditional meat sources with it. I don't see the point and I have no moral objection to eating animals.Jan 29 2012: "This first one will be grown in an academic lab, by highly trained academic staff," he said. "It's handmade and it's time- and labor-intensive. That's why it's so expensive to produce."
Not a cost-effective option, and how much will need to change to make it cost effective?
- less need for highly-trained staff,
- less labour intensive, so will need some automated processes (to reduce the cost of handmade meat),
- less time to produce.
Maybe they'll get there, but how much time and how many resources will be put into that effort?Jan 28 2012: I eat spam. I don't think I can consider myself picky enough to find 'untextured' vat grown meat distasteful.
Spam is bloody fabulous btw. Especially when pan fried with some onions, eggs and tomatoes. Serve with rice, and voila - a taste sensation for the ages.Jan 28 2012: Animals suffer when they are slaughtered - they feel pain and fear. If lab meat removes this pain and fear from the world then it can only be good, right?Jan 28 2012: I'd certainly try it. Depending on the tast and texture I may switch. This would be an economic and health decision for me, not an ethical one.Jan 27 2012: As all negatives would surely be plucked off before such a product is launched in market, proper awareness and apt. marketing can turn it a success.
whats the harm.?
we already are living in lab grown world.Jan 27 2012: I would love it. Nobody would have to feel conflicted about eating living animals anymore.Jan 27 2012: I think you morally must chose IV meat IF it is not detrimental to health of man or beast AND it requires less resources to produce than current production.
Then there are additional potential benefits of course. Look at baby-milk. Many babies are fed artificial (IV) milk rather than the naturally produced stuff. Many reasons to do so and no reason to assume it is bad for the baby.
I know, not right away and most babies are breast-fed at the start. But very few are breast-fed to the natural age when they transfer to other sources of nutrition.
in a few decennia, eating field grown meat might be as exclusive as kobe-beef is now.Jan 26 2012: The point with cloning or producing food from scratch is that. There is no exact to way to make sure that the molecular composition of in vitro meat will be exactly the same as the one that you buy now in the local market.Jan 25 2012: Suggest once we have a reasonable non animal alternatives/substitutes we may have a moral obligation to stop growing and killing animals for food - perhaps starting with the more intelligent/Feeling animals - Whales, Sheep, Cows etc then perhaps birds, then perhaps fish, last of all might be insects etc.
Until then, lets try to reduce suffering and quality of life where appropriate, especially in richer more developed countries. Suggest there is no excuse for anyone earning a decent income not to go free range if available etc.
The sooner the worst of Kosher and Halal practices are stopped the better.
The impact probably depends on how good it looks, tastes, smells, the nutritional value, and cost. Not many want to eat protein slops. Suggest sausages and hamburger might be impacted first. Then stir fries. Roast and Steak last as harder to match. Need to prove safe as well.
I find meat, fish, poultry very tempting. But suggest many of us can reduce meat (and our cholesterol) with current vegie alternatives. I eat a lot of vegie sausages and bacon at home and tastes okay.
Jan 27 2012: The non-veg consumption increase at least 10 % yearly. The main reason is as people gets rich they gets money and have a choice they choose Non-veg over Veg.
PETA has created vegan awareness . But mostly vegetarian south east and east Asia in becoming non-vegetarian as the economic growth is very high. And the meat consumption of Asia is expected to grow @ 25% at least for next 15-20 years.
In today's world south east and eastern Asia consumes only 5% of total meat consumption though have more than 30% of world population .In 2030 south east and eastern Asia are expected to consume 35% of worlds total meat consumption.
As the meat is growing very fast the synthetic meat will be very promising business .Jan 24 2012: Impacts world wide... wow that is an intense question! I am able to answer the first question you posed in the title, "Would you eat 'in virtro' meat?" and my answer is, not knowingly.Jan 22 2012: For the most part we have responded regarding the environmental impacts. Don't get me wrong, that is a great advantage to this experiment. What would be the long term advantage to space travel, colonizing another planet,
or emergency source of food to disaster areas. Because the current process requires a modern lab it does not seem possible to project it to some of the areas that could use it the most jungles, central Africa, desert areas, etc ... however, the process will evolve and preservation methods will be developed. Star Track would be proud. Adious Huxley and his book Brave New World also touched on this yars ago just to name a few.
So what about the alternative uses of this process. Any thoughts.Jan 22 2012: If it is produced cheaply, fantastic. If not, then less animals will be given life in order to feed us, but millions will still starve. Use it to feed people, not make money.Jan 22 2012: Here a video that enlightens this issue : http://dotsub.com/view/8bbb5fa4-0a55-452a-a2f4-2ee1b3e2ea5b
Steve C
Jan 22 2012: NO THANKS!
- 0
(Remember Olean? Margarine? Monosodium Glutamate?)
I think this stuff will be even worse.Jan 21 2012: The question would be if it is bio-ethically and morally correct. If it can save lives the scale tips one way...Jan 21 2012: As long as I know that it's not unhealthy to eat. Then sure why not?
Although I must say that this reminded me of a nice dutch comedy show. Where the guy (Hans Teeuwen) sais that (in short): While wondering through the woods have you ever told an animal to be there at the same time tomorrow?! He won't show... they are lazy! I don't really like meat.... however I to eat it out of principle!Jan 21 2012: I personally wouldn't eat in vitro meat because I don't yet know what exactly goes into making it and what/how many artificial ingredients are in it. Even though I wouldn't eat it as I am not yet fully informed, I think it might help with the lack of food supply in the world.
Jan 22 2012: see Tony Kerstjens suggested site three comments above you. Thanks for your reply BobJan 27 2012: Ya that's a big concern. Though it sounds great. But there may be side effects. Even it can be very rich in calories.Jan 20 2012: Always thought about this since turning vegetarian 6 years ago or so.... would I eat meat if grown in a lab where no animal was harmed? May have done at the beginning, but it's now the thought of meat, the texture, the chance of poisoning if not cooked right, etc so still no. However, for those who still like to eat meat but have a conscience about the way animals have been kept/slaughtered, this sounds like a positive way forward :)Jan 20 2012: I bet it would taste like chicken ;)


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Syesha has already used up six of her lives. If she has really has three more lives, she'll be in the top 2.
Author Archives: esther
Dolly Parton and country week
Here's the rumored song list for tonight's Idol show. Since Dolly Parton is the guest mentor, the contestants are singing her songs. It'll be interesting to see what Jason Castro does with "I WIll Always Love You" and whether Ramiele will be able to pull off "9 to 5."
David Cook: "You Know I Love You"
Kristy Lee Cook: "Two Doors Down"
Michael Johns: "Islands in the Stream"
Carly Smithson: "Jolene"
David Archuleta: "Travelin Thru"
Ramiele Malubay: "9 to 5
Brooke White: "Coat of Many Colors"
Syesha Mercado: "Eagle When She Flies"
Jason Castro: "I Will Always Love You"
Where in the world is Danny Noriega
Don't worry. He's still around. He's doing plenty of live chats and they're on Youtube. Check it out.
Thanks to Vote for the Worst for the link
Geico commercial rip-off
You've seen those annoying Geico commercials. The one where the announcer says something like: "Mary Jane is a real customer, not an actor. So we've hired a real actor to tell her story." Mary Jane speaks, and the person next to her (a minor celebrity, a crazy actor) paraphrases what she just said, either in a dramatic, music or comedic way.
Here's Chikezie on Jay Leno, doing pretty much the same thing…
In Chikezie's exit Q&A with Entertainment Weekly, he mentions a couple of nicknames: Archie for David Archuleta and Cookie for David Cook.
Reading the whole interview made me sad. Chikezie sounds very sweet and kind, someone who can be friends with anyone. And it doesn't appear like he's high maintenance or has a big ego (Ahem, Danny Noriega…)
The Chikezie no know really knew
Here's an exit interview:
Mike Hughes Gannett News Service March 27, 2008
As Chikezie ended his "American Idol" run, viewers still didn't really know the guy.
fact, they didn't know how to say his last name. That's why he dropped
it, he told reporters today. "It was constantly mispronounced."
entered the competition as Chikezie Eze. Judges kept assuming that
names rhyme. Not so, Chikezie said. In his first name, each "e" is
long; in his second, each is short.
There are many things that
don't fit expectations. His parents are Nigerian natives who wanted a
strict upbringing, he has said. For instance:
He wasn't supposed to date until he's 16.
He's never been to a concert, he said today, the day after being voted out. Still,
isn't a music novice. Classes at Santa Monica College had a huge
impact. "It's what made me the singer that I am," Chikezie said. "I
would not be on 'Idol' if it weren't for that."
Damage control
Ryan Seacrest was doing some damage control for the whole "BIllie Jean"/Chris Cornell/David Cook issue on his radio morning show today.
Here's the story. David Cook sang Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean" Tuesday night. But he sang the Chris Cornell version of it. When Ryan Seacrest introduced David Cook, he said it was Chris Cornell's version. But Ryan was also surrounded by a mob of screaming girls, and he judges apparently didn't hear "Chris Cornell." After David's performance, the judges threw heaps of praise on him, and it seemed like the slower, rock version of "Billie Jean" was David's original idea. It wasn't.
Bloggers, Youtube viewers and Chris Cornell fans quickly pointed out that David wasn't doing his own version, but Cornell's.
Today: On his morning show, Ryan was heavy on the spin control. Over and over, he told listeners it was Chris Cornell's version of "Billie Jean." Chris Cornell called in and said he's performed that song many times live and that it's in his studio album as well. When Chris first told people he was going to sing "Billie Jean," a lot of people thought it was crazy. After hearing his slow rock version, they love it. Chris praised David's performance and singing, adding that he hit every note in the runs in the same way that he does it.
Ryan speculated that the judges didn't hear his intro for David Cook on Tuesday night. But, both Ryan and Chris were surprised that Randy, whom Ryan called an encyclopedia of the music industry, didn't mention or know that David sang Cornell's version.
This song-and-dance show with Ryan and Chris went on for several minutes. We get it. Chris Cornell is great. David Cook wasn't all that original. American Idol judges may have goofed. It wasn't Ryan's fault. David Cook did Chris Cornell proud.
New news: Chris Cornell announced that Timabland is producing his third solo album. Timbaland also called into the morning show saying that the album is the best work he's done in his career, better than Nelly and Justin. Cornell said he hasn't been this excited about an album in years.
Diol Idol predicts the three contestants safest contestants are: David Cook, David Archuleta and Carly Smithson.
Everyone else is in the nebulous yellow cautionary area. Here's their order from safest to least safe:
Michael Johns
Kristy Lee Cook
Brooke White
Syesha Mercado
Ramiele Malubay
Jason Castro
Chikezie Eze
Two takes on 'Billie Jean'
Here's Chris Cornell's version of "Billie Jean," which I think is more rich and soulful than David Cook's. Of course, David Cook is an amateur, right?
And here's David Cook's version
And here's the original by Michael Jackson.
At this point in the season, I'm not at all excited about the show or any of its contestants. So I'll keep this short.
Ramiele Malubay
Alone by Heart
She almost pulled it off.
Jason Castro
Fragile by Sting
He's fun to watch on a reality show, but would you buy tickets to his concert?
Syesha Mercado
If I Were Your Woman by Whitney Houston
She sounds great, but I don't think she has a large fan base.
If Only for One Night by Luther Vandross
What has this show become? An medley of tunes from the easy listening radio station? He also sounds just like Ruben.
Brooke White
Every Breath You Take by The Police
Why is she singing a stalker song? The piano was nice, but at some point she should have walked away from it. It limited her from really shining in the big notes.
Michael Johns
We Will Rock You and We Are the Champions by Queen
Michael Johns can only sing Queen. You know he's sung these two songs several hundred times in his life. Michael's range needs some improvement.
Carly Smithson
Total Eclipse of the Heart by Bonnie Tyler
Electrifying and scary.
David Archuleta
"You're the Voice" by John Farnham
Why can't this kid sing a contemporary song? All of his performances are 20 years too old for him. He did well, as usual.
Kristy Lee Cook
God Bless the USA by Lee Greenwood
Hating Kristy's performance would be unpatriotic. It wasn't on par with some of the other contestants this season, but it was Kristy's personal best. Doesn't say much.
David Cook
Billie Jean by Michael Jackson
David is probably the smartest contestant on the show. It was a great performance. That said, it wasn't original. Chris Cornell did it — and better.
From best to worst:
David Cook
Michael Johns
Syesha (though no one will remember it)
David Archuleta
Jason Castro

subset: commoncrawl


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Cross Country
Duke Cross Country BIO
Eddie Merenda
2013-14: Entered two events in the fall…helped guide Duke to a first-place finish at the Three Stripe Invitational, placing second overall in a 5K time of 15:18.31…earned a 15th-place finish at the Royal Cross Country Challenge (10/11)…Indoors, saw increased action in his sophomore campaign, competing in five events during the season…ran a personal-best time of 4:16.93 for the mile at the Virginia Tech Challenge (2/21)…also clocked a personal-best time of 8:33.59 at the Virginia Tech Elite Meet (2/8)…opened the indoor season with a personal-best time of 15:01.21 for 5,000 meters at the Virginia Tech Invitational (1/18)…did not compete during the outdoor season.
2012-13: Competed four times on the fall, with his best finish coming in a fourth-place performance in the Duke-NC Central dual ... clocked 25:56.6 for 8K to place ninth at the Great American Cross Country Festival ... collected a top-10 finish at the Three Stripe Invitational with a time of 15:39 for 5K...Indoors, participated in one individual event and one relay in his rookie campaign…ran the 3,000 meters at the JDL Fast Track Kickoff in 8:46.98 to finish fourth overall…served as the 1,600 anchor in a distance medley relay team that placed third at the Virginia Tech Invitational with a combined time of 10:12.21…did not compete during the outdoor season.
Prior to Duke: Four-year letterwinner in cross country and track & field at Arlington ... finished 18th overall at the state cross country championship as a senior ... named the Poughkeepsie Journal's Runner of the Year as a junior ... All-American in indoor and outdoor track & field ... helped his squad's distance medley relay take sixth at the 2012 New Balance Indoor Nationals ... finished 11th in the state in the 1,600m indoors during his junior season ... outdoors, was a member of Arlington's distance medley relay that came in fourth at the 2012 Penn Relays and fifth at the 2012 New Balance Outdoor Nationals ... finished sixth in the state in the 3,200m and in the emerging elite mile competition at Nationals in 2010 ... garnered all-state, all-section, all-country and all-league recognition in cross country and track & field during his prep career ... two-time team captain in cross country and track & field ... National Honor Society member ... an AP Scholar with Distinction.
Personal: Son of Ed and Ann Merenda ... born Jan. 2, 1994 ... has one sister, Stacey.
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Founded in Canada, Gemini make lights for riders. They know whether you're taking on the urban jungle, getting those hard winter miles in or riding the Vancouver North Shore your lights can make the world of difference.
Genuine Gemini smart lithium charger for Gemini lights.
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Some of the biggest attention-getters in the Corvette world were, at one time, projects that may have looked good from a distance. Be it 2 feet, 20 feet, or 20 miles, there was a distance from which these Vettes looked good. But their flaws became more evident the closer you got.
Kerry Detwiler's '73 Stingray convertible was a "10-footer" when he discovered it, but his first look at it was from farther away, while on a Vette-hunting trip from his home in Harleysville, Pennsylvania. "I was going from my house to Lebanon, Pennsylvania, to look at another Corvette-a blue-on-blue '70 or '71," he says of the trip where he was seeking a chrome-bumpered Shark. "On the way up, I passed a car dealer's used-car showroom, and they had a '73 and a '67 nose-to-nose in the middle of the showroom."
Kerry says he thought that dealer would be asking too much for the '73, and kept on toward Lebanon. There, he found a chrome-bumper Shark all right-one for which the term "20-footer" would be too kind a description. (Maybe "20-miler" would have been more accurate.) "It was a real piece of crap," he recalls. "It certainly wasn't anything you were going to want to drive. I was looking for something that, if it was a little rough that was OK, but I wanted to be able to drive it and be proud that I was driving a Corvette at the time. I was there for a couple minutes, and then I turned around and came back."
On his way home, he decided to stop and look at the '73. That's despite the fact that he had his heart set on a '68-'72 Corvette and not a '73-'82 rubber bumper C3. "I figured, what the heck, I'll look at this car," Kerry says. "I crawled all over it, but I really wasn't sure that I wanted it." Kerry thought about it for a few days, then called the dealer and, before long, made the deal and brought it home. It drove all right for a 20-plus-year-old used car, one with some visible flaws. "It had stress cracks in the body, but it was a 10-footer," says Kerry. "From 10 feet on back, the car looked great."
If you know anything about unrestored Corvettes, you know they can hide a lot of problems. Kerry soon found out that this one had "bodywork by committee" performed on it. "There were body parts from at least three different cars under there, based on the base paint colors that we found when we stripped it." But that wasn't all they found. "The whole passenger-side door was rotted," he adds. "You never would have known that by looking at it from the outside. Denny Widman-the guy who worked on it-said, 'I've never seen one like this. There's nothing left.' So, we replaced that whole door."
They also decided to replace the '73's front bumper and its age-related flaws; at the same time they chose an RM Diamont custom-mixed dark metallic red paint scheme with flames blended from metallic gold/purple/light red. "I wasn't real keen on it at first, and then we started looking at them," he says of the replacement bumpers considered before choosing ACI's '80-style nose. "When I saw that we could use the stock '73 grilles inside it, we put it together with an air dam underneath, and I really liked how it looked."
Not only did the body get the attention it needed, the '73's mechanical systems also needed help-and got it. When he bought the Vette, its brakes worked, but a look under the car while at the nearby Watash Speed Shop in Lansdale, Pennsylvania, was very revealing. "Once they got underneath it, they said, 'You've got to fix it!'" Kerry says. "The brakes that were on it were wasted. It was a miracle they stopped the car." Off came what was left of the original brake system, replaced by new hardware from Vette Brakes and Parts (VBP). "They put all-new brakes on it, with stainless-steel sleeved calipers and DOT-5 silicon brake fluid," says Kerry. "For having manual brakes, it stops pretty good. You've got to give it a push, but it'll stop. Four-wheel-disc is four-wheel-disc."


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Quarterly Report: 2009, April - June (Q4), Kake
Lawrence Blood
DCRA Regional Office:
Gov't Type:
First Class City
Agreement Date:
City of Kake
Assessment Status:
Assessment Date:
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Last Updated:
Community Sanitation Overview:
The City operates a water treatment, water distribution, and a piped sewer system. Almost all households are fully plumbed. Kake provides refuse collection, recycling and hazardous waste disposal. The Tlingit-Haida Regional Electric Authority operates three diesel-fueled generators in Kake. Electricity is provided by Inside Passage Electric Cooperative.
RUBA Status & Activities This Qtr:
Juneau RUBA staff traveled to Kake on June 17 to provide training to the new City Administrator and to work with the budget committee on developing a balanced FY10 budget. Training consisted of the Administrator's roles and responsibilities in a Mayor-Council form of government and the relationship between local municipal code and Alaska statutes. RUBA staff participated in a budget work session to help balance the proposed FY10 budget. The City is experiencing some cash flow problems and projected FY10 expenses exceed projected revenues. RUBA staff discussed ways the City could possibly increase revenues and decrease operating costs. The Council is considering a layoff for some city employees and closing the community gym. The Bookkeeper used the RUBA QuickBooks hotline on four occasions this quarter seeking assistance on Balance Sheet and Profit and Loss statements, bank reconciliation, and changing due dates on utility billing statements. Juneau RUBA staff continues to provide Kake with assistance in updating their utility ordinance and other financial management issues.
RUBA Activities for the Coming Qtr:
RUBA staff will assist utility staff with collecting the necessary data for a rate analysis and work with the water committee on possibly revamping the customer classifications. The council has set a goal to achieve a 81% collection rate by the end of the year. Other RUBA activities for the coming quarter will include: 1) Assist in the preparation of an FY 10 Budget. 2) Continue to provide support for increasing collection rates and pursuing delinquent water utility accounts.
Essential Indicators:
24 of 26
Sustainable Indicators:
12 of 27
Total Score:
36 of 53
Essential Indicators
All revenues and expenses for the utility are listed in the utility budget.
The utility has adopted a balanced realistic budget.
Monthly financial reports are prepared and submitted to the policy making board.
The utility is current in paying all water/wastewater electric bills.
The utility has on hand a year's adequate fuel supply or it has a financial plan to purchase an adequate supply.
The utility is receiving revenues (user fees or other sources) sufficient to cover operating expenses.
Sustainable Indicators
The utility is receiving revenues (user fees or other sources sufficient to cover operating expenses and Repair & Replacement (R) costs.
YTD revenues are at a level equal to or above those budgeted.
YTD expenditures are at a level equal to or below those budgeted.
A monthly manager's report is prepared.
Budget amendments are completed and adopted as necessary.
Finances Comments
City staff is concerned about the increasing cost for electricity and the direct and indirect affects it has on the City's ability to provide utility services. Electricity is provided through Inside Passage Electric Cooperative (IPEC) at $0.61 per kilowatt hour (KPH)before PCE is applied. Direct energy costs make up an increasing share of the total operating costs for the water and wastewater utilities, increasing 33% over the last two years and accounting for nearly 15% of the overall operating cost. The community has a bulk fuel facility owned by Kake Tribal Corporation which is comprised of propane, gasoline and diesel storage tanks sufficient to meet the community s needs. The City has adequate funds available and purchases fuel as needed. The governing body is fully aware that user fees do not produce sufficient income to cover operating expenses or repair and replacement (R and R) cost. The Council has not adjusted the utility rates since May 1991. It has been a general practice for the City to use other sources, such as the general fund, to subsidize utility operating expenses. The community does not have adequate savings for unexpected repairs and equipment replacement.
Accounting Systems
Essential Indicators
The utility has adopted a collection policy and actively follows it.
The utility bills customers on a regular basis.
An accounts receivable system is in place which tracks customers and reports past due accounts and amounts.
An accounts payable system is in place.
The payroll system correctly calculates payroll and keeps records.
A cash receipt system is in place that records incoming money and how it was spent.
The utility has a cash disbursement system that records how money was spent.
Sustainable Indicators
A chart of accounts is used that identifies categories in a reasonable, usable manner.
Monthly bank reconciliations have been completed for all utility accounts.
The utility has a purchasing system that requires approval prior to purchase, and the approval process compares proposed purchases to budgeted amounts.
Accounting Systems Comments
The City of Kake has an adopted collections policy contained within the Public Utilities Ordinance. Utility bills are sent out on a regular basis and the City is focusing its efforts on enforcing payment on delinquent accounts. An earlier lack of follow-up and enforcement on delinquent accounts created a large number of aged accounts and a very poor collection rate. With the extra effort in enforcing the collection policy, the City will optimistically see an improvement in their collection rate over the next few quarters. City staff reports numerous difficulties in using the QuickBooks program and has little confidence in the reliability and accuracy of the financial reports. The account receivables system documents customer payments and reports past due accounts with the corresponding amounts. Bank reconciliations are not normally performed in QuickBooks. The City depends upon bank statements and the online banking service to determine available balances. The City provides utility services to the local population at the following rates: Residential Water = $18.00 per month Residential Wastewater = $6.00 per month Residential Garbage = $12.00 per month
Tax Problems
Essential Indicators
The utility has a system to accurately calculate, track, and report payroll tax liabilities.
The utility is current on filing tax reports.
The utility is current on making tax deposits.
If there are any past due tax liabilities or recorded tax liens, a lien release has been issued or a repayment agreement has been signed and repayments are current.
Tax Problems Comments
The City of Kake uses QuickBooks Pro to calculate, track, and report payroll liabilities. The City was released this quarter from a 2008 Employment Security Tax (EST) lien. This represented the only recorded and active lien against the City of Kake, which is now free from all lien related debt.
Personnel System
Essential Indicators
The utility has a posted workers compensation insurance policy in effect.
Sustainable Indicators
The utility has adopted and uses a Personnel Policy, which has been reviewed by an attorney, AML or Commerce for topics and language.
The utility has adequate written job descriptions for all positions.
The utility has adopted and follows a written personnel evaluation process that ties the job description to the evaluation.
The utility has an adequate written hiring process.
The utility has personnel folders on every employee that contain at least: I-9, Job Application and Letter of Acceptance.
The utility has a probationary period for new hires that includes orientation, job training/oversight, and evaluations.
The utility provides training opportunities to staff as needed and available.
Personnel System Comments
The City carries workers compensation insurance through AML/JIA. The policy runs from 07/01/08 through 06/30/09. The policy covers work-related accidents and occupational diseases up to the Alaska statutory limits for each occurrence. A copy of the workers compensation policy is posted in accordance with state statute at the following locations: City Hall, Water Treatment Plant, and Liquor Store. Kake has a written personnel policy; however, the policy has not been reviewed in several years and is not routinely used by the employees. The City does not have a formal written hiring process, however, usually requires a 90 day probationary period for most new hires. Job descriptions and a formal evaluation process are not a high priority. There are personnel folders for most current municipal employees which contains different levels of required and recommended documentation. The utility provides adequate training to its employees. Employees are encouraged to attend annual water/wastewater conferences, UTM courses and other specialized training when funds are available.
Organizational Management
Essential Indicators
The entity that owns the utility is known; the entity that will operate the utility is set.
The policy making body is active in policy making of the utility.
The policy making body enforces utility policy.
The utility has an adequately trained manager.
The utility has an adequately trained bookkeeper.
The utility has an adequately trained operator or operators.
The utility has adopted the necessary ordinances (or rules and regulations) necessary to give it the authority to operate.
Sustainable Indicators
The utility has adopted an organizational chart that reflects the current structure.
The policy making body meets as required.
The utility complies with the open meeting act for all meetings.
Organizational Management Comments
The water utility operator successfully completed a provisional water treatment class and certification exam this quarter. The City Council normally meets monthly; however, has had some problems meeting in the summer due to the of availability council members. The Council complies with open meeting requirements and is generally informed on the status of the utility.
Operation of Utility
Essential Indicators
The utility operator(s) are actively working towards necessary certification.
The utility has a preventative maintenance plan developed for the existing sanitation facilities.
Sustainable Indicators
The manager receives a monthly O&M report from the utility operator and routinely "spot checks" the facilities to see that the maintenance items are being completed.
The utility has a safety manual and holds safety meetings.
Utility facilities have not suffered any major problems/outages due to management issues that are unresolved.
The utility is operating at the level of service that was proposed.
The operator provides status reports to the manager on a routine basis.
The utility has completed and distributed its "Consumer Confidence Report".
The utility is not on the "Significant Non-Complier" (SNC) list.
The utility maintains an inventory control list.
The utility maintains a critical spare parts list.
Operation of Utility Comments
The City operates a level 2 water treatment, and level 1 water distribution and wastewater collection systems. The operator has a preventive maintenance plan for the sanitation facilities and a safety manual contained within the utility operations manual. The utility operator consults with the Mayor on a regular basis and provides written status reports. The utility completes and distributes its Consumer Confidence Report (CCR) in compliance with State and federal regulations. As of the latest Significant Non-Compliance list (2/11/09), the City of Kake was listed for non-compliance to the Stage 1 Disinfectant/Disinfection By-Product Rule and Surface Water Treatment Rules. The City s last monitoring violation for Stage 1 was in May 2008. This problem was corrected when the water treatment plant received an upgrade consisting of IFE turbidimeters. Even though the system has not had a Stage 1 monitoring violation since May 2008, it will take 12 months of no additional violations to return to compliance for Stage 1. The system did received an additional violation due to the high HAA5 results and must continue to collect monthly samples for TTHMs / HAA5s. The operator maintains an adequate level of supplies and some spare parts for the utility, however does not maintain an inventory control or critical spare parts list.
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Getting to Know Your Gynecologist LQWoman to Woman SeriesTU, Jan 17, 3 to 4 p.m.Andrea Randall, MD, Gynecology/Obstetrics760-610-7205 Read More
Food Matters: Nutritious Eating and Choices PLPalm Springs Library SeriesTU, Jan 17, 6 to 7 p.m.David Neumann, MD, Family Medicine; Chef Greg Schmitz, Palm Greens Café, Palm Springs760-969-7770, extension 7560 Read More
Breast Cancer: Sentinel Lymph Node Biopsy LCLunch and Learn with the ExpertW, Jan 18, Noon to 1:30 p.m.Evelyn "Lillian" Kachikwu, MD, General Surgery and fellowship trained in Surgical Oncology760-834-3798 by Jan 17 Read More
Nutrition for Diabetes ACSponsored by Desert Diabetes ClubW, Jan 18, 2 to 3 p.m.Gustavo Wong, RD, HFS, CDE, Diabetes Program760-773-1578 Read More
Fingers to Shoulders ACEisenhower Desert Orthopedic SeriesTH, Jan 19, 5:30 to 7 p.m.Orthopedic Surgeons* Stephen O'Connell, MD and Patrick St. Pierre, MD760-568-1234 Read More
Age Is Not a Factor: Achieve an Active Lifestyle LQM, Jan 23, 2 to 3 p.m.Bill Bell, athlete; Patricia Avila, MD, MPH, Medical Director, Eisenhower Wellness Institute; and Kim Bloom, BS, Exercise Physiologist760-610-7205 by Jan 21. Read More
Hormones and Health: Sorting Through the Headlines ACTH, Jan 26, 5:30 to 6:30 p.m.Elisa Lindley, MD, Gynecology*/Oncology*760-568-1234 Read MoreOh, My Aching Knees! LQArgyros Health and Wellness SeriesTH, Feb 2, 5:30 to 7 p.m.Jason Weisstein, MD, MPH, FACS, Orthopedic Surgery760-610-7205 by Jan 31. Read MoreCancer Treatment Side Effects: How Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy Can Help LCM, Feb 6, 1 to 2 p.m.Sofia Peterson, MD, Internal Medicine/Geriatric Medicine, subspecialty in Wound Care/Hyperbaric Medicine760-834-3798 Read More
So when Tom needed surgery in February of 2010 to repair a torn rotator cuff, he exhibited the same kind of commitment in order to get back to the activities he enjoys, including golf and playing catch with his grandsons.
"My right shoulder was a mess," he says. "It's really a pain to not be able to use your right arm when you're right-handed," he adds, noting that he couldn't raise his arm without severe discomfort. "My wife even had to help me blow dry my hair!"
Tom had torn the same rotator cuff before, in 1994, when he was head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, and had had surgery to repair it. "Then it happened again 16 years later," he says. "I wasn't doing anything overly strenuous. I guess it was just the years of wear and tear from playing football."
A year-round Indian Wells resident, Tom turned to Eisenhower Desert Orthopedic Center for help.
"I knew some of the doctors there, but wasn't familiar with anyone who specialized in shoulders," he says. "They pointed me to Dr. St. Pierre."
"Tom had a massive rotator cuff tear," notes Patrick St. Pierre, MD, a Board Certified, fellowship-trained Orthopedic Surgeon who specializes in sports medicine and shoulders. "For someone Tom's age, we sometimes think about doing a shoulder replacement instead of a rotator cuff repair. The determining factors are how big a tear we're dealing with and how much muscle atrophy there is.
"Because Tom was such an active guy and in good shape, we decided to go for the repair since his function was good and he wanted to get back to golfing," Dr. St. Pierre explains.
"If the repair didn't work, we could always go on to do a replacement, which is a bigger operation and doesn't give the patient as much function in the long run. But repair was out of the question if we did a replacement first."
Most rotator cuff repair surgeries today are minimally invasive procedures performed using arthroscopic techniques, and Tom's was no exception. With arthroscopy, the surgeon uses a special thin tube (arthroscope) designed for viewing and treating problems inside a joint. The scope is inserted into the joint space through a tiny "keyhole" incision, and is fitted with a miniature camera that enables the surgeon to view joint structures on a high-definition monitor.
Unlike traditional "open" surgery which requires a long incision to cut through skin, muscle and sometimes bone, minimally invasive procedures are performed through one or more short incisions. The benefits of this approach include less scarring, less blood loss, reduced pain and faster recovery.
"I haven't done an open rotator cuff repair in almost ten years," Dr. St. Pierre says, underscoring his extensive arthroscopic experience.
"The first time I had my rotator cuff repaired, it was an open procedure," Tom says. "When Dr. St. Pierre showed me how he would do it arthroscopically, I was amazed at what he could accomplish. They have some neat 'toys' nowadays."
Another "neat toy" that Dr. St. Pierre employed is called platelet-rich fibrin matrix (PRFM), a leading-edge technique that helps stimulate bone and soft tissue growth, and accelerate soft tissue and bone healing.
To create PRFM, one or two ounces of blood are taken from the patient and spun into a platelet concentration by centrifuge. This platelet concentration is then made into membranes that are rich in white blood cells and blood vessel growth factors. The membranes are placed in the area where accelerated healing is desired.
"In cases like Tom's, with such a big tear, we want everything to be in our favor to enhance healing," Dr. St. Pierre says of his decision to use PRFM.
Tom's surgery was successful, and he healed well. But recovery from rotator cuff repair surgery takes more than surgical expertise.
"Rehabilitation is so important," Dr. St. Pierre says. "And the patient has to take responsibility for this. It's not up to the doctor or the physical therapist. The patient has to do the exercises. And an hour a couple of times a week doesn't do it."
A lifelong achiever in professional football, Tom understood all too well that total commitment is paramount to reaching the ultimate in performance.
"It was nearly four months before I could do any kind of exercise due to the severity of the rotator cuff tear and my, ah, maturity," he says. But once he got started, he was steadfast.
"I did everything the physical therapist said I should do, to the letter," he says. "There was no way I wanted to mess this up!"
Today, Tom is back playing golf for fun, traveling with his wife Barbara to visit family and friends and, during football season, he is color commentator during radio broadcasts of the Raiders' games. "It keeps me occupied in the profession I've been in for 50 years," he says.
He and Barbara stay fit by walking, stretching and exercising with light weights, and eating healthfully. "I'm only five pounds heavier now than when I played ball," he says proudly. "We have our sometimes food and our everyday food. Cheeseburger and fries are our sometimes food, lean meat and salads are our everyday food."
Tom also has written two books: an autobiography entitled Fire in the Iceman and Tom Flores' Tales from the Oakland Raiders: A Collection of the Greatest Stories Ever Told. He also started the Tom Flores Youth Foundation. Now in its twenty-third year, the foundation donates money each year to 14 schools in his hometown of Sanger, near Fresno.
"One year we donate money to the arts department, the next year to science, and the next year to athletics," he says. "It enables them to do things they ordinarily wouldn't do because of the money crunch."
This goal-driven man walks the talk when it comes to living and enjoying life fully, taking care of his health and giving back to others. To other athletes, professional or otherwise who are sidelined by an injury, Tom offers this advice.
"Get it fixed and do your rehab," he says. "The longer you ignore your problem, the worse it can get, possibly affecting other parts of the body. And do what your doctor and physical therapist tell you to do."
"We always focus on non-operative treatment first," Dr. St. Pierre adds. "If you're having shoulder pain and don't know the cause, get it evaluated. If you get started on a non-operative program early on, it can often prevent surgery later."
Postscript Six months ago, Dr. St. Pierre performed arthroscopic surgery on Flores' other rotator cuff (his left shoulder) and Flores reports that he feels great and has full range of motion in both shoulders.


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Burr and Burton to get green power from Mount Equinox monksBy Patrick McArdle
STAFF WRITER | April 27,2013MANCHESTER During Earth Week, Burr and Burton Academy earned a triple win in their agreement to buy power from a hydroelectric generator operated by the Carthusian monks whose monastery is on Mount Equinox, according to Headmaster Mark Tashjian.
What I like about it is its a triple bottom line project. It has educational value. It has economic value in terms of cost savings and it has environmental value in terms of providing power that has zero carbon footprint, he said.
Tashjian said the term of the agreement is five years and includes an option to renew for five years. The agreement also calls for Burr and Burton to pay 10 percent less for electricity than they had been paying.
While Tashjian said he didnt know how much electricity Burr and Burton uses, he said they pay about $150,000 a year for electricity.
The independent high school, which serves students from local towns like Manchester, Dorset and Sunderland, will not only be getting green power that demonstrates responsible stewardship, it will also be adding another facet to its character that students cant get anywhere else.
Its a pretty interesting and absolutely unique arrangement since the Carthusian monastery up there is the only one in the country. We can safely say were the only school in the country to be getting our electric power from a Carthusian monastery, Tashjian said.
New York Times best-selling author and the monks liaison to the outside world, Monsignor Stephen Rossetti, said the hydroelectric power generation dated back to the late 1950s when an artificial lake was created through the construction of a dam. The lake was built to control flood waters and conserve soil but the controlled water was also directed to a stream where it could spin the turbines needed to generate electricity.
The hydroelectric project was built by Joseph George Davidson, who later bequeathed the land on Mount Equinox to the Carthusians.
Rossetti said the original generators were replaced with one new generator that went online in October. It provides power for the use of all the Catholic churchs buildings on the mountain.
The generator can produce up to 250 kilowatts and Rossetti said that was more than enough for the Carthusian monks needs. A decision was made to share that power with others.
The prior, the head of the monks, said he felt that God had given us this resource and we should use it wisely. Its part of the Catholic churchs responsible stewardship of the gift of creation which is very much in line with the whole green movement so we try to be green, he said.
Rossetti said Burr and Burton was a good partner because the church wanted to support one of their neighbors in Manchester and the schools commitment to education made it a terrific choice.
Tashjian said students are very concerned about renewable energy and responsible stewardship of resources. Burr and Burton is just at the foot of Mount Equinox so he expects students will have an opportunity to visit and learn from the hydroelectric site.
This year, Burr and Burton also opened its Mountain Campus, which is powered by solar power.
On its main campus, there are more than 10 buildings, large and small, dedicated directly to education or supporting the school. All of them will now be getting power from a renewable source.
Tashjian said he was also pleased to be able to announce the agreement this week.
It was a good Earth Day, I can tell you that, he said.
patrick.mcardle@ rutlandherald.comMORE IN Southern VermontBENNINGTON — Ask author and Bennington College graduate Charlotte Silver if the title of... Full StoryPresident Calvin Coolidge was remembered in all sorts of ways Saturday on the 143rd anniversary... Full StoryPresident Calvin Coolidge was remembered in all sorts of ways Saturday on the 143rd anniversary... Full Story
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Head of the Young Horus
The highly idealizing treatment of this face, including the narrow eyebrows, the sharp vertical lines running down the nose, the full round cheeks, and the small mouth, is paralleled on some of the Twenty-first Dynasty's few royal sculptures and reliefs. Moreover, the cavity on the forehead once accommodated a uraeus cobra, a symbol of royalty. Still, the head does not necessarily represent a king. It may be one of the dynasty's high priests, who often usurped royal insignias, including the uraeus, as a sign of their authority over Upper Egypt during the political turmoil of the period.
- Medium: Quartzite
- Place Made: Egypt
- Dates: ca. 1070-945 B.C.E.
- Dynasty: XXI Dynasty
- Period: Third Intermediate Period
- Dimensions: 4 7/16 x 2 7/8 x 3 1/4 in. (11.3 x 7.3 x 8.3 cm) (show scale)
- Collections:Egyptian, Classical, Ancient Near Eastern Art
- Museum Location: This item is on view in Egypt Reborn: Art for Eternity, 19th Dynasty to Roman Period, Martha A. and Robert S. Rubin Gallery, 3rd Floor
- Exhibitions:
- Accession Number: 36.835
- Credit Line: Charles Edwin Wilbour Fund
- Rights Statement: Creative Commons-BY
- Caption: Head of the Young Horus, ca. 1070-945 B.C.E. Quartzite, 4 7/16 x 2 7/8 x 3 1/4 in. (11.3 x 7.3 x 8.3 cm). Brooklyn Museum, Charles Edwin Wilbour Fund, 36.835. Creative Commons-BY
- Image:
- Catalogue Description: Head of a King or a High Priest
- Record Completeness: Good (76%)


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Community college administrations overlap
In 1999, the bill became law. Almost overnight, the region went from having one college and one district to two colleges and two districts.
With the new designation came new trappings. The district created two new jobs that mirrored positions at Palm Desert's College of the Desert: a chief human resources officer and a chief business officer. Copper Mountain also hired a director of fiscal services, promoted the provost to CEO and promoted a professor to a position as chief instructional officer. A new local board was elected. State budgets provided $3 million in the first two years to foot the bill for the transition.
From 1998, before the secession, to 2002, four years after the split, the cost of top-level administration for College of the Desert and Copper Mountain College doubled, growing at twice the rate of the system as a whole. Copper Mountain currently has nine administrators and faculty who make more than $100,000 per year.
Both districts are among California's smallest. The Desert Community College District enrolls roughly 13,000 students. Copper Mountain, the spinoff, is the second-tiniest district in the state, with 3,000 students enrolled last year.
Tiny districts are, by nature, inefficient. In fact, their fixed costs are so high that the state funding formula adds on extra money for them. As a result, per-student funding at Copper Mountain in 2010 was about $8,200 – more than 40 percent higher than the state average of $5,700.
"They've got to have a board, they've got to have a basic campus, they've got to have a basic administration, they've got to have a basic faculty even if their class size is very small," Wolf said. "So why would you create something like this … when there's 55 miles away a great big campus that provides everything?"
Gillick did not dispute that forming a new small district entailed significant costs. But he said consolidating Copper Mountain with a neighboring district would be an "unsuccessful implant."
"These small things (districts) are costly, but they have a value that can't be measured in bucks," he said.
Brulte, now the California Republican Party chairman, said there was no requirement in the law that the new district add more administrators. The move had a positive impact in the area, he said.
"At the end of the day, additional resources went to Copper Mountain, and it eliminated a tremendous source of conflict within the Morongo Basin," he said. "The people of the Morongo Basin got to have control of the college district in their community."
California Watch reporter Kendall Taggart contributed to this story. California Watch is part of the independent, nonprofit Center for Investigative Reporting and a media partner of U-T San Diego. The reporters can be reached at firstname.lastname@example.com and email@example.com.


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Now, if you are looking for a gift for someone who is about all things medieval you will be able to find it at Design Toscano. We have knight statues, gargoyles, greenmen and much, much more for the medievalist. A practical gift that is well crafted as well is the Medieval Knight Iron Bookends. These proud knights are created in foundry iron so can hold up any book and stand at 9"tall. Of course, they are carrying swords and have their face shields down ready to battle anyone messing with your books.
Enthusiasts of Asian art, be it our exciting Japanese garden statues, our many pieces of Asian furniture or any of our beautiful Asians figures will be delighted to browse our collection of adorable porcelain statues crafted by artist Lin Wei Dung. One piece that celebrates the parent/child relationship is her Mother and Child at Play Statue. As we all know, young boys are a bundle of activity and this one is on the move while mom stands by with extreme patience enjoying and guiding him. The colors of the hand painting are gorgeous.
This is the time when many of our sculptures for outside are on sale and perhaps the time to plan your outdoor space for next summer. A great piece that is at an excellent price now is The Halfpence Cobblestone Bridge. This bridge (for decoration, not walking) is 3 feet long and a detailed replica of those found in the Cotswold area of England. If you have a halfpence throw it under this bridge and make a wish.