text:
- Karina Eisner
- Spring, TX
- United States
This conversation is closed.
What place does creativity have in education?
Almost every education related TED video available states or implies that creative thinking is at the center of the learning process and at the root of every breakthrough.
What place do we give creative thinking, free exploration, uncharted discovery in our current educational models?
Are the prevalent public education systems becoming a means to program the masses rather than a way to facilitate discovery, growth and self realization? Are students truly turned into useful citizens, or rather adults trained to respond to induced stimulus in predetermined ways, much like rats in the lab?
Are we afraid of where original thinking can bring us? Are we afraid of change? Are we afraid of losing control? How far are we ready to go to keep it? And do we really think creativity can be killed?
This debate is closed, now what?
WHAT? Stage 2 of this debate, do it!
HOW? Connecting, cooperating, organizing information, sharing our skills, giving ideas, encouraging, writing or blogging, creating a web page, reaching out to our own communities.
WHERE? New TED debate, Creativity in Action
WHEN? Now.
We can overcome geographical, language, age and political barriers. We can make a difference. Let's take the next step. Are you in?
Closing Statement from Karina Eisner
This debate is closed, now what?
WHAT? Stage 2 of this debate, join us!
HOW? Connecting, cooperating, organizing information, sharing our skills,
giving ideas, encouraging, blogging, creating a web page, reaching
out to our own communities.
WHERE? New TED debate, here, Creativity in Action
WHEN? Now.
We can overcome geographical, language, age and political barriers. We can make a difference. Let's take the next step. Are you in?
Oct 23 2011: Karina,
You have given me much to think about because as a high school teacher who feels that technology has allowed me to be artist that I was born to be, I would like to think that by integrating technology into my classes I am giving my kids their Creativity Back. But am I...???
I expect creative thinking, free exploration, uncharted discovery to happen regularly in my classroom. I expect it but often do not get it. My curriculum demands that I teach my kids to read and respond but I try to leave the ways they respond up to them. I want them to create blog posts, digital stories or even PowerPoints that allow them to express their thoughts and opinions on the subject matter.
Yes, we all know that the prevalent public education systems are merely a means to program the masses rather than a way to facilitate discovery, growth and self realization but I want to take them above and beyond the required responses. I want them to relate what they've read or seen to things that they are familiar with so that they can create links that take them out of the box.
NO, I don't believe that we are CHURNING out useful citizens. We are making trained lab rats who give us the answers that we are looking for. I sing and dance when I get out of the box responses whether they are right or wrong. I celebrate their individuality and I try to encourage unusual responses. Many of them are not used to doing this and/or are too scared to respond so I have to fuss and complain to them in hopes of getting more out of them.
I am not afraid of their individual thinking and often laugh when some of them complain that they want worksheets because what I am asking them to do is too hard. Creativity can be killed if the students do not see the value of it. They turn off their thoughts so that they can supply us with our thoughts. I know what I think. I want the messiness and uncertainty that their original thoughts can bring.
It helps to keep me honest and on my toes.
Oct 23 2011: The reason why I believe your students are not living up to your expectation is because you must be one of the first to demand critical thinking and creativity of your students. They are used to "cutting and pasting" from a textbook to a worksheet as their homework, for that is all most teachers and the educational system usually demand of us.
Anyway, I applaud for your attempts at incorporating creativity and critical thinking into the educational system. Don't stop trying!
Oct 23 2011: Thanks Alonso,
I try to convince myself that that is the case and I am asking them to move out of their comfort zone. That's the only thing that keeps my trying. It is frustrating when they keep asking me "What is the answer?" and I keep replying "I don't know. What do you think?"
I know that they have to be trained to think independently.
Oct 24 2011: Valerie, maybe you should try to spread this to the other teachers. Convince them to require critical thinking and to not care as much about the students getting the answer's right so long as they are using their brain. If the whole school starts to require critical thinking and to teach the students how to think critically and independently, your students might start to use these qualities more often. I know this is rather far-fetched, but it's worth a try. And who knows, if you get the whole school changed, it might start spreading to other schools in your district.
dan philips
Oct 24 2011: Valerie, I sympathize for you, and it does sound frustrating.
- +2
When you say that the students are to scared to respond, this seems to be a broken record, because I'm hearing it a lot, and noticing it in my school education.
I have an idea that you might want to try, to get some responses that will probably shock you.
Try to get them to react to something being anonymous. If they know that they can say something with out anyone knowing it was them, maybe you just might find the real creativeness that's in the class.
And then see where that will take you and the students.
The more creative you are doing this, the more you'll get creative answers, maybe.
Instead of thinking out of the box, maybe we need to start thinking out side a bubble. A box has six sides to choose from, when a bubble has only one side, and that's out.
Oct 24 2011: Clever!
:-)Oct 24 2011: Dan LOVE the bubble and will probably use that in class.
I do ask for them to do other things and sometimes I get good responses so some of them are getting it. We make photomovies, blog, wikipages, wordles,etc. Many of them see and appreciate the connections between what they normally do in class and the techie things that I ask them to do.
Thanks everyone for your great words and advice. I will keep up the big fight and try to get them to think OUTSIDE of the bubble.Oct 24 2011: One tool I have found to be effective in promoting anonymous brainstorming is Pirate Pad, a free text collaboration tool. http://piratepad.net/front-page/Oct 24 2011: One tool I have found to be effective in promoting anonymous brainstorming is Pirate Pad, a free text collaboration tool. See http://piratepad.net/front-page/ Anonymity can be powerful in promoting freedom of expression in the classroom and boardroom.Oct 24 2011: Valerie,
Thanks for giving us an honest look at your daily efforts in class.
I agree with Alonso, it is possible that the students are just not used to think out of the box. Maybe you can motivate them by finding a few original, surprising projects along the lines of what you expect.
I'd show them something totally above their means (not, "this is what I'd like it to look like").
Something crazy and inspiring. Something in multimedia, intercultural, international. Maybe make it yourself! A collage of the best music in the world (classical and contemporary), the best architecture, inventions, poetry, speeches, paintings, quotes, even food.
Stimulate them by helping them REMEMBER (because it is all in there)
Just take them for the trip of their life into what they could be!
Stay in touch and let us know how it went :-)
Oct 24 2011: Karina,
We are working on poetry now and I don't just want them to write poetry, I want them to produce poetry slam videos.
I want them to record themselves performing poetry that they have written. Some of them will use templates to write their poems if they do not feel comfortable creating their own. I won't require them to talk on camera if they are uncomfortable. They can make voice recordings and then create screencasts with visuals to go along with ther recordings.
Many of them are not used to recording themselves and I am trying to get them to feel comfortable by not requiring them to use the video camera, etc.
I know that this is pseudo creativity because I am giving them the format/venue to express themselves but I am doing it in a way that allows them freedom to incorporate other aspects of their creativity. I think of it as creativity on training wheels.
I figure that if I introduce them to enough things that are new to them that they will eventually feel empowered enough to do their own thing. We have started using Weebly for ePortfolios and Animoto for PhotoMovies and I have students who have created their own websites and photomovies to help friends and family keep in contact. I was floored.
I will let everyone know how our work goes. Thanks for all of your comments.Oct 23 2011: Well, perhaps you would want to hear the voice of a student also on this topic.
As a student, I honestly do not see that creativity is being encouraged in school. The education it offers lead to stagnation of developing ideas.
The freedom for a student to speak his own opinion lies dominantly on the teacher whose charater is willing enough to receive the student's point of view regarding a subject. Other than that, only a few being supportive. The curriculum sometimes enforce these scholars to gain quick information based on the textbooks since there is a limited period for each course. (For ex: a teacher must finish a topic within a week, unabling him to demostrate a more enterprising and innovative teaching.) In the end, these teachers are lack of will to use alternative way of teaching and instead, they just used the common way of teaching their students through monotonous lectures.
Schools in developing countries have poor concern about this issue. They encourage the students to expand more on the academic performances rather than the outgoing skills which are needed soon in the work field. Emotional intelligence also matters as a part of stimulator for the student to gain a broad, bold and creative mindset.
However, although most universities nowadays take a look on social activities which are stated in their CVs or personal statements, a vast majority of them are actually taking only a bit into consideration these kind of achievements. And later on, in the university life, the student will be required to stick to the courses without having the opportunity to change them.
You can take an outlook over this article: http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/159/indian-engineers-education
(Why Education Without Creativity Is Not Enough)
"In India, it takes engineers two to three years to recover from the damage of the education system."
Oct 23 2011: Well, of course, all students are welcome. In this matter you are experts!
I appreciate your input.
I see two main points that you make:
One is the status of education in the classroom in developing countries, where you find a focus on performance (not real world skills) and book based teaching and monotonous lectures.
The other is that universities (in developing countries?)do not really take into account achievements (which ones?) and, once student is enrolled, do not give students a chance to work on them.
Thanks for the link. I guess your intent is for it to support your point of the situation in India, since the article says, "The U.S. education system is much more geared to innovation and practical application,[...]It's really good from high school onward." So I will not consider that you follow the small dialogue above.
The article actually tells us that there is a desperate need to fill job vacancies, and despite the huge number of graduating engineers, "India's schools can't keep up with demand." There is pressure to fill that workplace need, and that is part of the reason the study modality is so focused.
This is a complex issue deeply interconnected with the socioeconomic profile of the country. That creativity is not encouraged in engineering is to me an oxymoron, as it should be one of the areas where it should bloom. Obviously you can't change everything, but do you see anything you could do where you are, today?
Bring awareness, post articles in the local newspaper, create a club? Other?
Would you like to stay and help put together a pool of ideas, and draw from it for your own scenario?
Oct 23 2011: I'm sorry, maybe I was just struggling to use the formal language and in the end I got off topic since I did not read that small but inspiring dialogue you wrote below the question.
*what I meant in my comment was most prestigious universities only see academic performance and overlook the activities of student being involved in social/art events or in creative organisation (only portfolios being noticed)
I do agree with "creativity is not encouraged in engineering is to me an oxymoron".
Let me try again and go straight to my actual main point: Action.
Small Scale: supported by parents, friends' habits, country's cultures
(parents encourage kids to do simple science praticals and fun arts handmade at home, demonstrate the importance of creativity in education thru schools' mini events arranged by the student councils, show some movies to youth to show them how lacking creativity can cost a lot to their future so that they will take the level of creativity in their school life seriously and so the same goes to the teachers; if these are done, automatically, the school's atmosphere changes leading to change in the city and hopefully, the nation.)
Bigger Scale: supported by government and the curriculas
(government should take better control on the amount of students per class so teachers could manage them better and stimulate an interactive discussion with the students so they'll be unafraid to confess their creative ideas; who knows an innovator might be unobserved in the classroom? the curricula should also provide a chance for the student to grow creativities.
I think my friends and I am actually working towards emphasizing creativity among students.
Currently, I'm endeavouring to manage an art exhibition in Jakarta, gathering all the scattered talents which lie inside the students in many schools around Indonesia. (performing and visual arts)
I hope this will raise people' concern abt importace of any types of creativity in any field.
Wish me luck :-)
Oct 23 2011: Good luck!
And thanks for all the suggestions, you gave this a great deal of thought!
Stay in touch to continue sorting out the creativity puzzle and getting ideas on some practical solutions...Oct 23 2011: The article describes the US colleges as much better in developing creativity and innovation in its graduates. But there are different viewpoints on this. Deborah L. Wince-Smith, President, Council on Competitiveness states that "… creativity must be a fundamental goal of liberal education.… few colleges or universities today see their role as the education of truly creative, entrepreneurial innovators." in an article. See here: ( http://www.aacu.org/peerreview/pr-sp06/pr-sp06_analysis3.cfm ). Maybe we're not has good as we'd like to think?Oct 18 2011: I was actually considering getting a group of students together to discuss not just this issue, but issues with society as a whole. I have a very inspiring Democracy teacher that could probably assist me in this.
Another point I think should be brought up is that schools only measure certain types of intelligence. In honesty I feel that in school they only teach you how to briefly memorize information and to follow orders. To do what one is told (although sometimes a good idea) is one of the roots to all problems in our society. Sadly that philosophy too often gets me into trouble
Oct 18 2011: Dylan,
"To do what one is told (although sometimes a good idea) is one of the roots to all problems in our society." I have a different opinion of this issue. I think when a society is led by enlightened leaders with reasonable and just rules, then doing what one is told is likely to be good for the well-being of the society. This still requires the individual to think for himself/herself of course and use judgment. Blindly doing what one is told is not a good thing. My point is "don't throw out the baby with the bath water."
I agree that schools tend to selectively measure only a few types of intelligence - namely verbal, logical, mathematical applied in an analytical manner. Schools seldom measure generative ability. Maybe because schools are still developing a traditional workforce rather than creative thinkers for the new economy.
What is one thing you could do with your Democracy teacher to encourage other students to think creatively?
All you need to begin is you and one or two others who share the same passion for this topic to begin spreading your ideas. Remember that memes are powerful and infectious.
Good luck!
Oct 18 2011: Peter, it is good that we can take turns :-) Sometimes we have to sleep too, right? RIGHT?
Thanks for your great references, links, and thoughts; your mind never stops amazing me! Your enthusiasm for this subject is contagious, I can't wait to see what becomes of this collaboration :-)Oct 18 2011: Dylan,
Excited to read your post! You clearly show that your own creativity is very much alive. When you realize it is there, you get a glimpse of the enormous potential that lies within each one of us to affect change.
And it may sound cliche, but YOU CAN change the world, one goal at the time.
Often times it doesn't require you to hold an anti-establishment flag, risk your life, or leave your current way of life. It does not require an amazing IQ either.
What it does call for is a fundamental SHIFT, in the way of thinking. No, you won't become a geek, or turn into an outcast for doing that, but you will regain an inner awareness of your thinking process, and start seeing everyone around you as part of a global team. No longer competing against each other, you will see allies in classmates, teachers, average city people, local institutions and large companies. You will be able to identify worthy goals and find ways to utilize resources (human and otherwise) in that direction, and it will not even feel like an effort.
KUDOS to you for identifying a need in your own situation and taking initiative!!!
Please, stay in touch. Many here are thinking in the same direction, and although the issue looks different once you take it to the local level, it is the same in essence, same platform, same goals.
I would love to hear how your challenge takes shape, what you work out with your teacher (s), how you involve others into this transformation :-)
A local group in my area is moving out of the ideas into the field as well. We are thinking of ways to keep us connected (regionally and globally) and feed each other, brainstorm and apply strategies to real problems. You are more than welcome to join us, there are more meaningful ways to make it happen beyond emails or postings back and forth...
Peter Han
Oct 13 2011: Responding to Karina's request "So, TED problem finders, I'd like to request that in every entry you will make the effort to propose solutions, resources, links, examples of successful interventions, keeping in mind that we don't want to fill several virtual pages with theory, nagging and bitterness."
- +2
I would like to share that in our home-school, we recognize that creative output is enhanced by: 1) the application of mundane thinking processes to 2) a knowledge base that is broad and agile (data that is store in such a way that makes it easy to extract bits of information) 3) plus the application of techniques for "playing" with the data in combinatorial and transformational ways 4) plus a great deal of perseverance and hard work. We acknowledge that the potential for creative output is innate and that people can express this potential in a variety of ways in a variety of disciplines. We also believe that this potential can be cultivated, refined, and enhanced through teachable techniques and a great deal of structured practice. There still persists a romantic notion of creativity that if we only remove the obstacles, creative expression will naturally flow and reach its apogee in individuals. This views discounts the huge benefit that technique, knowledge, hard work, and mindset has to bring to creative output. In particular, knowledge seems to be dismissed as an important element of creative output. Maybe that is because creativity is commonly associated with the the arts as opposed to the more technical domains such as engineering. The more knowledge bits one has, the exponentially more combinations of those knowledge bits are possible in the person's mind.
Hard work is often excluded from talk of creativity. Maybe this is due to the myth of ideas just "popping into one's head" as opposed to a deliberate, sustained effort over time.
So one solution/resource I offer is our model for promoting/developing creative capability in our family. End of Part 1.
Oct 14 2011: Peter, the system only lets me give you one thumb. Thanks for enlightening us again. Great plan!
You explained it very thoroughly.
One thing resonates with me, as a member of a household of artists :-)
"[The potential for creativity] can be cultivated, refined, and enhanced through teachable techniques and a great deal of structured practice. There still persists a romantic notion of creativity that if we only remove the obstacles, creative expression will naturally flow and reach its apogee in individuals. This views discounts the huge benefit that technique, knowledge, hard work, and mindset has to bring to creative output."
This is so critical! And it is true for artists, who would not get anything done if they only depended on that magical moment of inspiration, the right light, etc. But as you pointed out, it is also true for ANY other discipline. When writers have a "writer's block" they write. They resort to techniques to make progress whenever their pen refuses to just flow. When inventors don't get it right, they persevere and use methods to try alternatives until the ideal solution does come up.Oct 9 2011: My experience is in the field of innovation. Here you can verify that a "good idea", as an act of creativity, is a trigger of an innovation process but does not guarantee the result, which is expected to be, at the end of the process, an Innovation, recognized by the society and/or by the market.
We (a team of Coaches and Executives, here in Italy) discovered that other two key competences will be necessary to start a virtuous circle and are: problem solving in order to overcome the obstacles, and "expression" (we used this word) in order to involve, convince, share with others because we need their help and competence to pursue the result.
In fact we start from a "good idea" (ideation or invention or creativity), we let it grow and become "strong" through the problem solving, we bring it to success through involvement, communication, sharing.
The "learning" then happens when you perform several virtuous cycles along a "spiral", I like to say, giving you an image for learning. Moreover we have to consider two other forces which enable a good and effective innovation process. They are Consciousness and Willing. The Consciousness allows you to enlarge your perception of your own motivation and of other people motivation. The Willingness is the determination, energy that you spend to reach the results surmouting the difficulties.
Oct 12 2011: Reading your comment was like looking at a well balance piece of sculpture. It all fits and sits beautifully together. Can I quote you in my class: "Problem solving and decision making skills"?Oct 5 2011: I find political correctness to be a compensating, obfuscating and judgmental strategy for jacking up feelings of inadequacy. Your first paragraph is much improved. I am not in disagreement and I think you get the point.
As for your second paragraph, who do you think you are?
Paragraph three: Outward Bound IS a sport. I made a distinction between competitive sports and cooperative sports that apparently sailed past you.
And 4- You need to get in touch with the fact that jocks are commonly considered bullies in high school (ask any geek, nerd, skater, goth, emo, punk, headbanger, etc.), why do you defend them? Why are you so patronizing? Why do you play the role of moral crusader?
McGiver remains an excellent role model for creative thinking for kids. Your invocation of the ancillary plot components- corporate ties and violence, are a canard and specious sophistry.
I don't mean to be argumentative, that's your turf, I'm just trying to guide you towards a more enlightened and reality based interpretive frame of reference.
Comment deleted
Oct 6 2011: Although I would say rejection is the only cause, as jealousy and envy arise from it.
Oct 8 2011: Yes, rejection can be traumatizing particularly during a phase in growth where kids are trying to find their place in the world and become qualified for adulthood.Oct 4 2011: There is a quote posted in the front hall of my children's school.
"In times of profound change, the learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists." - Eric Hoffer
As someone pointed out already, creativity is learning. Without the creative ability to imagine uses for the information, all you end up doing is memorizing what is being taught. Creativity is a key part of our ability to adapt to new situations.
Comment deleted
Oct 5 2011: I haven't read all of the posts, so I'm not sure who you are all referring to when you mention the fragile bottle of creativity. That fragile bottle mentality is what's causing the problems related to creativity. Creativity isn't something that should only be used at special occasions. It is something that should be used constantly. The problem that our society is facing, is a mentality that creativity is only appropriate in a very limited number of uses. It should be used constantly, and in every aspect of life. The most creative person I have ever met, was a janitor. The abstract solutions that he came up with to different cleaning problems that he was faced with was out right amazing. His ability to pull two items out of a garbage can, combine them, and use the new "tool" to assist in his cleaning left a huge impression upon me.
I would argue that many classrooms are void of creativity. The teacher or professor states a list of facts, and the students are expected to memorize those facts. The students may come up with creative ways to help them memorize, but the memorized information hasn't been learned, only remembered. If it's taken out of the context that it was memorized in, then many fail to see the relation until it is shown to them. It's not that they lack creativity, but they lack the creative base on which to build upon.
I have always encouraged my children to ask the question "why?". I feel that it helps learn the cause of the outcome that they are viewing. A tree is just a tree, until you ask "why does it grow?"Oct 5 2011: 500 classrooms a year, and not once have you ever been required to memorize facts in a non-creative way?
Perhaps you could explain how you learned history?
Oct 9 2011: Grrrr, I certainly appreciate the courage of those that state an idea and dare to stand up for it.
Mike, sorry that you too were left talking to the hand. The guy removed his comments. It messed up the dialogue, but yes, I wonder with you, never memorized anything?
I wonder further: 500 classroom a year????
Well, come to think of it, it is possible to go through that many if you are Good Will Hunting... somehow our guy didn't seem to be that kind...
Alex Mero
Sep 28 2011: Creativity, in its basic understanding, is comparable to the birth of a newborn. True creation is the emergence of something entirely new in the physical and material dimension that we perceive. It can not be solely the result of logical reasoning. Creativity can take place only upon a penetrating vision of something that was previously unknown. It requires an intuitive ability that enables a leap in the field of mystery before integrating it into the domain of the known.
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Oct 2 2011: Wonderful !!Oct 2 2011: Alex, you are right on target, I think!
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You know, I am repeating myself here, but that's what Socrates said 400 years before Christ...
His school of thought was actually called the Maieutics, which means "midwifery", and consisted in giving birth to new ideas from within, through questions, not instruction. These questions made the indiviual confront whatever knowledge he already had and test it...
. .
Oct 3 2011: Maieutics, giving birth to new ideas from within, through questions, not instruction.
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An art of teaching as used by Socrates based on the idea that the truth is latent in the mind of every human being due to innate reason but has to be "given birth" by answering intelligently proposed questions (or problems).Sep 27 2011: I am an artist and the Author of BEST SELLING training DVDs and I worked on a personal project for 6 years and I came up with a system for education that uses Game, Movies, interactive media , dance and .... It uses visuals, Sounds, Kinesthetic , reading and writing , all four.
We tested this in a preschool and kids were crazy about it, the same kids who were skipping the classes by pretending to be sick could not wait for this, I loved it they loved it . I am a Film maker, I know how to use my creativity to make people get excited and have fun. So what happened next ?
I live in Iran and when I spoke to some people from the Ministry of Teaching do you know what they said ?
We know it is great and amazing but it is OVERLY FUN and if kids get used to an educational system like this , they won't be able to continue their education without it , we have to change entire system from top to bottom and we won't do that .
They rejected it because it is OVERLY FUN !!! Fun is not a good for kids to get used to !! it was simply against their ideas.
by the way I know you are active in another talk about education , so I would delete this if you want me to.
Michael M
Sep 27 2011: Great story Amir. Let's hear it for overly fun learning.
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Sep 27 2011: I could do a conference on this , about what I came up with , what I did , the videos of the kids , the things that we did , the reaction they had , and finally the great Tragic ending :(
they feel fun is a wrong feeling to have for a humans :(
Is not fun the best thing we have ? Who would wanna live without fun ? That is not living that is just staying alive
Sep 27 2011: Nooo, don't assume it is the end! Ok, you realized that wasn't the market for your idea. You have several options, three of them are:
* store away your program for now and think what else will properly serve the people you intended to help AND get through the educational authorities (but if it means under-serving the children, I wouldn't),
* find a way to put it in place independently of the ministry of education,
* take your system to another, more receptive market.
Ideas worth spreading should not be killed :-) If you think this is one of them, stick to it!Sep 27 2011: I would love to see you present your project on TED, please make it happen :). You're also likely to connect with people who can take it further; people who are involved in non-conformist education systems, or who have the resources to (r)evolutionise some of the decrepit aspects of current education.
Michael M
Sep 26 2011: The general system of education, based in "testing" has killed many a creative urge. But school should teach people how to learn, how to think (and I don't mean just reason), and how to explore. Yes I believe in teaching maths, science, english lit and history. I am thankful for good teachers I had that taught me those things.
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Creativity can be squashed, but not destroyed. I think it is a lot like life itself, it just keeps popping back up.Sep 26 2011: I don't believe the shift away from creativity in schools is caused by fear. I believe it was fueled by a desire to measure success. Creativity, like art, is very subjective, and therefore extremely difficult to measure. What would happen if we attempted to have a standardized test for art or drama? All we succeed in doing, is remove any motivation to learn anything beyond what is in the test.
When I was in highschool, all we were taught were items that were on the provincial exam, and how to score as high as possible. What we actually knew made no difference. All that mattered, was how high you scored. Because of that limitation, all of my teachers had their hands tied. They had to teach us one style of thought. The style that would give us the best score. Now as a child, my mother was an elementary school teacher. I know that creativity is taught to small children. At the younger grades, we do not teach through memorization. We teach by giving a problem, and asking the class how to solve it. We do this because it helps the children to understand what the problem is. The benefit, is it also forces children to think creatively. Teachers are constantly surprised by the strange solutions that children come up with. At the higher levels of education, it becomes all about memorization, and creative or abstract solutions are typically suppressed. Even in the creative fields of art. You are not allowed to do it differently, as it makes it harder for the teacher to grade your work. It's far easier for the teacher to grade the quality of your painting, if everyone uses the same paints and brushes. It's about the quality, as opposed to the creativity.
So no, I don't believe that it is being fueled by a fear of change or lose of control. I believe that it is fueled by a need for measurable success. No, creativity can never be killed, but it can be suppressed. If we are taught that creativity is bad, we stop being creative. The positive is that it still resides inside of us.
Sep 26 2011: "Shift away"?
Like there was a focus on creativity at some point?
Let's face it, the education system has tiers into which children are slotted for their expected long-term level of productivity. We've gone from churning out workers for Henry Ford to churning out the mandatory 6% unemployed (NRU), future investment banker-thieves-politicians (where do you think the ones who cheat on tests and have the teachers turn a blind eye to it go?), and the rest of the masses/messes who might claw their way to middle management and consider it an accomplishment.
The education system is just one pillar of the fundamentally corrupt society - and I am not talking about capitalism/socialism/whatever-ism you'd like.
Sep 26 2011: Have you seen this talk Gisela?
This is a real teacher and I don't think he will fit into your definition of education as a pillar of corrupt society. Anyway I'm a teacher myself and I can assure you that I truly stand behind the words of this man and on the shoulders of my own teachers. They sent me to extracurricular activities; shaped, developed and nurtured my opinion and creativity! I can only be sorry that you didn't go to my school and met my teachers.
Sep 26 2011: There have always been individual teachers who break the mold - I had a few. They usually end up being penalized somehow.
But the system overall is what I meant.
EDIT: I am listening to the talk right now, thanks.Sep 27 2011: Silvia, thanks for sharing that! Inspiring, challenging...
Joseph Perez
Sep 28 2011: I saw it today, it was greatly inspiring and I wish more teachers did stuff like this teacher is.Sep 26 2011: You bring 10 apples to school, to be shared between yourself and two of your friends. How many apples should the three of you get, so that everyone gets the same amount?
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Go to the store during recess, and buy 2 more apples, so that everyone has 4 apples.
Everyone gets 3 apples, and give the extra to the teacher.
Everyone gets 1 apple because they can't eat two, and give the rest to the food bank.
3 and 1/3 apples each.
When you remove the constraints of conformity, you are left with creativity.
Sep 27 2011: You bring some interesting points, and this is a great one: for each question there is more than one correct answer! This is a good visual to explain creativity.Sep 26 2011: Penalized? Hm, come to think of it that might have been the case with some of the great ones I've met (unfortunately). Hope that you enjoyed the talk. You're welcome. :) I also enjoyed the ones of sir Ken Robinson but I think you've already watched them.Sep 27 2011: Gisela,
You're sharp and absolutely right.
Do you have more answers?
Are people afraid of creativity?
Gisela McKay
Sep 28 2011: I think "creativity" and "control" are seen by too many as being diametrically opposed.
- +1
And while I wish I had all the answers, I see it as being a broken system built on a broken foundation and any remedies that are suggested without taking that into account are purely cosmetic and doomed to ultimately fail.Sep 27 2011: Mike, you said, I don't believe the shift away from creativity in schools is caused by fear. I believe it was fueled by a desire to measure success.
Let me ask you then why is the current system so intent in constantly measuring? Everything is measured, from the raw material (the child) to his progress, performance, achievements, abilities, disabilities, strengths, weaknesses, potential -you name it. It measures weekly and by-weekly. Kids are always taking tests, and teachers are forever inputting data that they have no time to evaluate anyway before the next shower of data comes along. The system measures against arbitrary standards that change every year (why are they even called "standards"?) Is it not because of a desire to control every aspect of the process, and then the outcome itself? And why the need to control the results, if not a fear of the unpredictable, fear of the original, fear of the individual? An individualistic society afraid of the individual!? Could it be?
Sep 27 2011: I like your statement of "an individualistic society afraid of the individual". That may very well be, but I see the push for standardized testing being done for political reason. If a politician were to say "students are learning more, just take my word for it", no one would believe him or her as politicians are known to say whatever it takes in order to get into office. Now if a politician were to hold up a graph, showing the "improvements" that have been measured by standardized testing, then people are more likely to believe. We also do it under a misguided attempt to eliminate any bad teachers. As if a bad teacher will have an immediate and drastic impact on the IQ of a student. Bad teachers, are more easily found through measuring complaints, rather then student success. As a student's success is based off of a wide range of factors. Far more then simply the teacher that they have at that moment in time.
The most likely reason why I don't believe that the standardized testing is being fueled by fear, is that where I live we're at a bit of a tipping point with them. Few teachers have ever been in favor of them, and the government is beginning to acknowledge that the tests are often counter productive. We're just unsure of what the proper balance of it should be, as we do need SOME standardization, but not at every level.
I would have to ask, but I believe it currently sits at four standardized tests during the grades K-12 (grades 3, 6, 9, and 11 or 12), and optional provincial exams on academic courses for the grades 10-12. The provincial exams are not a requirement of graduating highschool, but many universities require them as proof of basic knowledge, and the government requires them for qualifying for any government scholarships.Sep 27 2011: You're welcome! So lucky to have friends who teach me well. :)Oct 26 2011: To the TEDsters that made this fun and challenging, kudos for great teamwork, and participation :-)
Thank you from the bottom of my heart to Mike Euverman, Gisela McKay, Silvia Marinova, Joseph Perez , Frans Kellner, James Kindler, Michael M, Fritzie Reisner, Amir Azizi Sarajy, Orlando Hawkins, Rosie Waygood, Mark Hurych, Shokrullah Amiri, Lynn Lee, Ed Schulte, Salim Solaiman, Albert Ip , Jim Moonan, Jessica Figueroa, Daniel Howard, Lozano Garcia, Tim blackburn, Jagdish Patel, Frank Rothstein, John R Schuh, Craig Patterson, Mary Mascaraque, Alex Mero, Christopher Thompson, Juliette Zahn, Mo Jacoby, Eduard Ghiur, Udit Kumar Sahoo, Amira Makhlouf, Tee Cee, Keith David Henry, Christa Hollis, Rahul Misra, Thomas Brucia, George Kong, Tavaris Eiland, Walter Radtke, terry wilkinson, Just Schoolit, David Mays, Unanima Theatre, Thadeus Frei , Nicholas Lukowiak, Durvesh Shinde, Bryan Gilbert, Rebecca Hader, Felix Lanzalaco,Erich Kreppenhofer, Brittney Stewart, Robert Vantage, Phillip McKay, Susanne Gannon, Stern Rockwell, renzo provedel, Leslie Saunders, Melissa Csikszentmihályi, Stephen Camm, Rasik Hulsogi, vishneswar reddy, Shobhit Agarwal, Greg McWhorter, vinay kallat, Dylan Gonzalez, Thomas Brooks, Scott MacAfee, Craig Patterson, Sanket Gupta, Jake Williams, Emmanuel Mashandudze, Chae Hiang Chua, dan philips, Cleo Abram, Alonso Espinosa-Domínguez, Jessica Mashael Bordelon AlMisbah, Gloria Felicia, Ayelet Lazarovitch, R Vishnu prasad, Jacinto Ela, dan philips, Brandon Alexander, Varlan Allan, Valerie Burton, Nick Belt, Richard Horowitz, Pascal-Xavier Van de Goor, Nicholas Ravencroft, Patrick Lu, Luigi Vampa, Jaime Lubin, Andrea Grazzini Walstrom, and Peter Han
Patrick Lu
Oct 26 2011: The major problem with education is in standardized testing. Specifically in multiple choice testing. Instead of open-ended questions, questions are now confined to four or five answers -- which promotes the memorize and regurgitate style of learning.
- +1
This becomes a huge problem in math. Instead of using tools (formulas, methods) to solve problems, the tools become the solution to problems.
Example: everyone learns about factoring in algebra II. In most schools in the US, it is taught by the FOIL method. So one of the "problems" that the teacher might give is expand (x+1)(x+2), or factor x^2+2x+1. And that would be the extent of learning factoring. So now, most kids should know and understand the concept of factoring, right? But what happens when you give most kids this problem: How many positive two-digit integers are factors of 2^24-1? Because this question wasn't given in the familiar form based on x's, many kids cannot solve this problem. But the method is the same, factor this expression into (2^12+1)(2^12-1) and so on. From there, you will need to find the prime factorization of the expression, and play around with the numbers a little bit to find out how many two digit integers are factors. The problem certainly isn't easy, but most kinds won't even know how to approach the problem because it wasn't given to them in a form that was explicitly taught to them. And this is where education fails kids -- what happens when society encounters a situation that hasn't been seen before, will the new generation be able to problem solve their way out of it, or will they be stuck with it because they weren't taught a solution?
There's a good article, albeit long(25 pages), about the issues in math right now.
Oct 26 2011: I agree that standardized tests are a major problem. I think another big problem with these tests is that they don't measure intelligence and academic skill nearly as well as they are supposed to, but instead they measure how good the tester does with this type of test. Grades also have this problem. And this is horrible because to a bright person with learning differences who doesn't do well with these tests (due to their structure), it can be very demoralizing.
Oct 26 2011: Alonso,
Have you read Peter Han's comments on standardized tests/measurement?
Look for it below, it will help you to understand how this tests come into play in the whole puzzle. As it is today, measurement is necessary. While individualized, informal assessment still takes place to some extent in classrooms, it is a very rare thing and certainly not what drives your GPA.
That said, it is a good thing that you have noted that different learning styles need to be addressed differently, because your own journey is just beginning.
While you can't do much to change the way your previous education was imparted, you do have choices for the future. And knowing your learning style will be instrumental in relationships, work, etc.
Google open curriculum colleges, also pass or fail colleges. Some have adopted an open platform where you can navigate their whole menu of courses through the 4-5 years of college, and try different things outside of your major. The pass/fail system let's you go for things that you may not be too strong at, but have an interest in, without risking a blotch on your transcripts. My daughter tried Swahili that way, and loved it!
Food for thought...Oct 26 2011: Patrick, you bring very interesting issues. As a teacher I understand your frustration, weather you experience this inequality yourself or you see it in your class...
Please, come to the next debate and help us to find ways to make it better. You'll see several other students all over the globe have the same complain.
And BTW, thanks for the link!Oct 25 2011: During this last day of this wonderful conversation, I would like to thank our host Karina Eisner for first creating this conversation space and secondly for working tirelessly to recognize, reinforce, re-frame, retort, reflect and respect the sharings of the various contributors of this conversation.
A little review of this conversation thread will reveal that Karina often worked into the wee hours of the morning for her to nurture this conversation. She has provoked, prodded and poked us into stretching our thinking on this important issue in her unique style.
I have copied this entire conversation thread onto a MS Word document to archive for my further reflection. It's easy to do by simply cutting and pasting from this website.
I look forward to seeing you all on other TED conversations that either relate to this topic or focus on an entirely different topic. I wish you all success in your creative ventures and thank you for your interest in promoting creativity in education around the globe. Never has so much depended on creative minds. Keep the faith in this mission. It's worth the exhaustion and frustration. It will reach a tipping point. Let us serve as the vital nudge that tips the monument over.
Best regards,
Peter Han
Houston, TX USA
Oct 26 2011: [blushing]
Honored to have you here, enlightening us with your thoughts and unending resources... and helping us test the maximum datat capacity of the TED.com site ;-)
See you soon to continue this interconnected dialogue...Oct 25 2011: In my opinion and experience people (teachers & parents) are in general scared of creativity because it's not what they're used too, after all we live in a concervative society.
Schools, from kindergarten to university, should enhance and support creativity. But parents as well, you can't leave everything to the schoolsystem. You know your kid best so it's up to you to create an environment in which it's creativity is supported. And to be honest I think it's hard for schools to support every kids in its creativity. Every kid has different points of interest and talents, you can't support all of that of all of them with our standardized education system. For that we must go to personalized learning system like Sir Ken Robinson said, but that isn't affordable for most of the population I think. So we need to find an affordable solution which doesn't deviate too much from the "normal" (to be accepted by others) to bring more creativity to the next generation.
In my experience in school you have a handful of teachers who urge you to be creative and supports every creative idea. I was lucky enough to have class from all of them and being a creative person I learned a lot from them in and out of class. Other students who weren't that creative didn't like their classes because it wasn't what they were used too. We need to isolate the creative ones from the non-creative ones and focus on the creative ones. And I think parents support creativity to a certain level as long as it's not too creative. I had more support for my creativeness in school than at home, that's not normal either. I would expect the opposite.
Point is: Parents, gather other creative parents, become a member of the school board, start by changing something small to convince the others and then you can tackle bigger things.
(sorry if things aren't clear I had to write down all my thougts fast because I need to go back in class and if I didn't write them down I'd forgot them by the time I get home)Oct 25 2011: Relating to Amira's posts and Andrea's response regarding "tips" and "roots", the practice of "Positive Deviance" may be relevant to Amira's goals. Take a look: http://www.positivedeviance.org/ This practice arose out of desperation many years ago in Viet Nam, where a researcher was desperate to find a way to curb childhood malnutrition. The researcher observed that a small minority of locals had discovered a solution and named them the positive deviants.
Oct 25 2011: Peter! Thank you for the site, I like the name even without looking into it yet. I will explore this further and keep you posted. Thank you.Oct 25 2011: My experience is that education does not value creativity in the slightest; it values obedience. The obedient will always outperform the creative in school. In life I think it's the other way around.Oct 23 2011: Karina,
To share with you how young people were engaged in a creative solution in my community:
Students wanted to skateboard. They found one of their favorite places to do so was the high school parking lot. (As a former hockey player -- I know why -- it's far most exciting to dodge danger than just coast merrily along the sidewalk!)
Needless to say, the adults didn't think this was a very good idea. Though many understood outdoors exercise with friends is far preferable way for young people to work out social and physical energies and get their excitement than the alternatives.
Leaders engaged the youth in creative solutions. The students told our Mayor that the city needed to build them a skateboard park. To which the Mayor offered something to the effect of:"If you take leadership in creating it, I'll put you in touch with leaders who can help you with the planning, designing, building, management and governance of it."
We now have a skateboard park -- a culmination of the energies and creativity of youth and the experience and relationships of adults.
Youth have something to do, Police have fewer calls to the high school to stop skaters. Leaders are proud. Because, in the process, alliances have been made between "rulle-making adults" and "boundary-pushing kids" not least of these is collaborative respect, pride and empowerment of diverse sectors, ages and interests of local citizens.
Who, through doing creatively, are constructing concentric layers scaffolded by real relationships and co-engaged solutions that solve problems and strengthen self and cultural identities --- all while encouraging more of the same.
Oct 24 2011: What a great example! Thanks for sharing, we have motivation, negotiation, and resolution. It doesn't sound difficult when we take it one step at a time...
I hope the young TEDsters here can take heart and see that [whatever the problem is] they can handle it, it can be done.
I hope they can rekindle the I CAN frame of mind with which they started out this journey...
I hope we can make it happen, not only their quality of life is at stake, but our future is in their hands as well.
When I pass the baton, I want to be excited to know that they are bursting with ideas on what to do to make this a better place...
PS:: did you get my email? It did work at one point...
Oct 24 2011: Karina,
I actually have a good deal of confidence that young people can create and collaborate in quite robust solutions.
I did get your email and sent you one in return, this afternoon. I'll re-send it to you.
Its time like these I imagine a young, creative programmer laughing at her/his computer screen, going: "Hehehe! Got 'em again! That'll teach 'em to doubt my power and brilliance."
If this is the case: here is my humble appeal:
Dear Master Yoda. Whether our problem is due to a duck, hiesenbug, or I know, I know, a PEBKAC or id10t code, will you please have Tux or Biff or whomever liberate us?


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Tomorrow will be my last day here at the Creston News Advertiser. I have taken a position as a staff accountant at Michael Foods in Lenox.
I have had a great time working at the Creston News Advertiser, and I have met a lot of amazing people. I will miss everyone at the Creston Fire Department, Union County Law Enforcement Center, Creston City Council, here at the office and everyone in between.
I just wanted to say thank you to the Creston News Advertiser for giving me this opportunity, and thank you to everyone in Creston and the surrounding areas for being so accepting of me. It really has been a great experience.
Now, for my last column, I have to give the firefighters some credit.
I recently had the opportunity to climb the ladder on the ladder truck at the Creston Fire Department, and even though I'm afraid of heights, I accepted the challenge.
I'll admit, I was a little nervous standing at the fire station, watching the firefighters setting up the truck and extending the ladder. The nerves set in a little more as they strapped a safety belt around me and showed me how to work the buckle.
They told me if I got scared, to attach the safety belt buckle anywhere on the ladder, then they would come get me and help me down.
The climb up the ladder wasn't bad, at all. It was actually really fun, and I did make it to the top. Looking down from that height was definitely a different perspective.
Coming back down the ladder however, was a different story. You can't turn around and come back down the ladder, so it makes it a little more difficult to see where you are going.
I was really glad to have one of the firefighters following me up, and then back down, the ladder, because I probably wouldn't have known what to do when I reached the top. On the way back down, they were behind me the entire way, told me to take it nice and slow going back down and where my steps would change on the ladder. Even though they were there helping me, my legs started shaking about halfway down.
I have to give the firefighters some credit because it took the wind out of me climbing the ladder with a coat and safety belt on, and they have to do it in full gear, plus battle a fire. So, I just wanted to say thank you not only to the firefighters, but to everyone in law enforcement, first responders, emergency medical personnel and everyone in the service, who do what they do to make our daily lives safer.


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Leagues & Competitions
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Real Madrid v Manchester United will show strengths of Premier League and La Liga, says Guillem Balague
Is the Premier League better than La Liga?Back to story
Comments (30)
Eugene Dee (Chelsea fan) says...
Everyone is saying Chelsea defended for 90mins against Barca..Chelsea were the underdogs,one man short and you expected them to attack the ball no..To my surprise the best team was 2 goals to the good but couldn't win it and chelsea came bake to level showing the quality between these leagues....over the two legs it was CHELSEA 3 BaRCA 2..Not forgetting that they played a number of games but the Spaniards always struggle....Man u will definitely settle the debate
Posted 10:44 13th February 2013
Lee Crawford (Newcastle United fan) says...
Regarding United as a team that struggles to control games and is becoming more and more of a counter-attacking team, is spot on with the recent Everton game an example. If Real dont make any defensive mistakes and keep position then I think they will be fine. Man Utd struggle with these qualities in a team.
Posted 00:23 13th February 2013
Michael Whittaker (Liverpool fan) says...
Great column again just wanted to flag up gary jacobs suggesting romelu lukaku is an English homegrown striker he is Belgian and was playing for anderlecht up until two years ago.
Posted 22:31 12th February 2013
Jake Swinborne (Wigan Athletic fan) says...
I bet most of the people saying that the EPL is better than La Liga have only seen a few games because some of the arguements are rubbish. My friend is spanish so I now know loads about spanish football, there are tough places to go in spain. Cold night in stoke? How about a blisteringly hot afternoon in Mallorca. Anyone can beat anyone, granted Real and Barca are miles above most of the teams, but they are considered the best in the world for a reason.
Posted 17:56 12th February 2013
Paul Bacon (Manchester United fan) says...
Good article agree with everything you've wrote but not sure Manchester United are a counter attacking team apart from maybe in some of the big matches.
Posted 16:14 12th February 2013
Jason Brown (Manchester United fan) says...
The premier league is the better overall league. Why you ask? Because it is fair to the lesser teams, giving them the chance to compete on even terms with the big teams; the television rights and advertising money for the prem league is distributed evenly throughout all the 20 teams. There is a fundamental problem in spain whereby barca and real negotiate separate pay deals giving them a lion's share of money and the smaller teams lose out. Thus, they are not as competitive in the transfer market and cannot realistically challenge the top teams. It hurts la liga's competitiveness. In prem league any team can beat any other team, in spain how often do you see the bottom teams get a result against the top. It can happen, but no where near as often. Real have a good team not because they have a world class coaching and training setup, but because they can afford to spend Ł80 million on ronaldo. Even man city would struggle to pay that.... Yes, barca have the best academy in the world atm, but they spend big too, while the smaller teams can't afford to. Take away Barca and Real and the spanish league starts to look pretty average. Take away man utd and city and the prem league is still very competitive, thats the difference.
Posted 14:52 12th February 2013
Brian Brian (Blackburn Rovers fan) says...
Guillem there is not even a lose competition between the two leagues in my opinion, for any football who watches Spanish football KNOWS that La Ligue is absolute miles better than the EPL. Van persie is probably the only player in the EPL who would get a game with either Brcelona or Real Madrid, just look at how poor Modric has been this season compared to how much he out classed EPL teams last season. When Man citys or Chelseas chairmen splash out some of their billions on the best footballer of all times Lionel Messi, maybe then the EPL can be counted as the best league in Europe. And finally, the Bundesliga is better than either leaue this season
Posted 13:50 12th February 2013
Liam Smith (Newcastle United fan) says...
The standard of La Liga is far higher than the EPL. Yes Chelsea (who finished sixth by the way) beat barca but we also saw them get hammered by Atletico. Also we witnessed Man United be taught a footballing lesson by a mid-table team in Athletic Bilbao. The likes of Malaga and Rayo punching above their weight also make the league very entertaining.
Posted 12:09 12th February 2013
Stephen Queen (Reading fan) says...
The premier league is more competitive but that doesnt necessarily mean that it is the better league
Posted 10:52 12th February 2013
Geoff Kennedy (Manchester United fan) says...
Jack calm....just remember what happened to Chelsea when they played falcao in the super cup in August. I think it's a clash of styles rather than one league being better than another. The problem is English team will try to change their style for European games...we play their style but can't compete cos it is unnatural.
Posted 10:40 12th February 2013
Scott Taylor (Manchester United fan) says...
How can Man Utd be a counter attacking team when almost all sides defend on the edge of their own box at Old Trafford? Since when is playing at home first an advantage in the Champions League? This is why the winners of the groups play away first.
Posted 10:34 12th February 2013
Diarmuid Cunningham (Rennes fan) says...
In relation to the first comment, Bilbao beat Manchester United convincingly last season and they were 6th in La Liga at the time. These sort of stats prove nothing.
Posted 07:48 12th February 2013
Gary Jacobs (St Mirren fan) says...
I personally feel that Barcelona are over-rated. Messi is good, but is he as clinical as quality homegrown english strikers such as Jermaine Defoe or Romelu Lukaku? I'm not so sure. I also think that Xavi is perhaps the most over-rated player in the game today, and would personally take Jordan Henderson's blend of youth, obvious tactical know how and technical ability over the spaniards aging, and tiresome, passing game.
Posted 05:08 12th February 2013
Amarit Chahil (Manchester United fan) says...
I feel your views are slightly biased Guillem which is fair enough, however you have to look at this properly. You say its funny that the people who said EPL is better than La Liga have gone quiet, I thinks it funny that you chose this season to take this argument on because this season epl teams have been off form, come next season you'll see chelsea city spurs n united in all last 16. You say barca's lead is the same as man uniteds, however this is very rare in the EPL for a team to be 10points clear in feb, this happens mostly every season in the la liga. you have to see that this season the english teams arent playing very well, everyone can see city arent playing no where near to what they were last season, chelsea is like a soap opera, too much drama YET they won the champions league last season against an excellent bayern side and knocked barca out with ten men, being down on aggregate and at the camp nou. city game against real at bernabeu, city almost beat madrid, played very well just unlucky at the end. united only counter attacking and struggle to control games? i think thats a bit harsh considering we have our best ever points tally for this point in the season sitting 1st in the league. the way i see it, EPL has 6 maybe 7 teams capable of playing the champions league: united, city, chelsea, arsenal, tottenham, liverpool and maybe everton. spain has 3 maybe 4 real, barca, athletico and maybe valencia. take united n city out of EPL u still have an interesting league, take barca n madrid out and its a nothing league. How many times has an english team been in the final in the last 8 - 10 years vs how many spain teams. guess we'll never know which is the better league until barca and madrid go to the Britannia stadium, play stoke on a cold monday night in winter. cheers
Posted 05:02 12th February 2013
Kiko Egea (Real Madrid fan) says...
People who think the EPL is stronger are delusional and ignorant. Lets look at thinks the other way around, what if the FIFA XI was all premiership players, what if Chelsea would of beat atletico 4-1 in the european super cup, what if man u would have embarrassed barcelona in 2 champions league finals, what if there were 4 premiership teams in this years champions league last 16 and spain only had 2, what if real madrid got knocked out of the champions league at the group stages with a group containing benfica, basel and atelu gallati, what if it was an all english europa league final, what if england won the euros, world cup then the euros back to back to back, what if a spanish team brought an english striker for 2 million an he destroyed la liga, what if the spanish champions went out of the champions league at the group stage for 2 years in a row, what if everton played real madrid off the park home and away in the europa league. If all of this happened then you can say the EPL is the best.
Posted 01:44 12th February 2013
Aramide Okekunle (Arsenal fan) says...
As much as I love watching the EPL I still believe that La liga is the better than the EPL. The argument that two teams dominate the league shouldn't undermined the amount of quality and ability within la Liga , they have more home grown players in Spain than in England. Where will the EPL be if not for the amount of money spent on players abroad especially in likes of Spain,Germany ..... Yes the EPL is open and this makes it more entertaining but this should not discredit other leagues especially the German,French ... Leagues. Moreover lets not forget that these other european teams are the one's dominating the european competition such as the UEFA Champions League and the Europa League and you only have to take a look at what happen to Man City Champions of the EPL in both these competition ,even Man U and Chelsea the holders in the group stages season to raise the Question is the EPL better than LA Liga and other leagues such as the German, holland... leagues?
Posted 21:22 11th February 2013
Kiko Egea (Real Madrid fan) says...
People who think the EPL is stronger are delusional and ignorant. Lets look at thinks the other way around, what if the FIFA XI was all premiership players, what if Chelsea would of beat atletico 4-1 in the european super cup, what if man u would have embarrassed barcelona in 2 champions league finals, what if there were 4 premiership teams in this years champions league last 16 and spain only had 2, what if real madrid got knocked out of the champions league at the group stages with a group containing benfica, basel and atelu gallati, what if it was an all english europa league final, what if england won the euros, world cup then the euros back to back to back, what if a spanish team brought an english striker for 2 million an he destroyed la liga, what if the spanish champions went out of the champions league at the group stage for 2 years in a row, what if everton played real madrid off the park home and away in the europa league. If all of this happened then you can say the EPL is the best.
Posted 21:01 11th February 2013
Paul Canning (Manchester United fan) says...
Hi Guillem, Maybe you remember we met in Barcelona Airport last Wednesday I am a Manchester United Fan and we discussed briefly our chances against Madrid. I am eagerley looking forward to the tie you said we dont have a chance I beg to differ and think we can play well in madrid if we keep to our attack and disclipine in defence. Making sure Madrids fullbacks are kept working hard with Nani and Valencia on either flank. Lets see nice meeting you last week.
Posted 18:46 11th February 2013
Iz Footyfan (Liverpool fan) says...
Guillem, I acknowledge your opinion but in terms of which league is better, I had this debate with a friend recently. The way I see it, the EPL is the best league in the world by far. I am going to consider it in two time periods: overall and at the present. Overall (past and present), you have to say the EPL is the best (counting when it used to be called the first division also) followed by Serie A. At present, EPL is the best and followed by the La Liga. What is important is how difficult it is to win a title in the specific league, the quality of players in the league and how the teams play. At present and recent times, the La Liga has been contested by real madrid and barcelona, who sure are two of the best teams in the world. But, thats about it in the la liga. Then you consider the EPL (and you look at last year) and you think that spain would love to see what happened last year or what happened when Thomas scored that goal at Anfield. La Liga is just not that tough to win for barca/real. Its like a contest between them: who can get the most wins! People should accept it instead of trying to say "oh spain play beautiful football" or "the la liga is so technically brilliant". It is irrelevant. And this brings me nicely onto my next point. In spain, everyone looks to play the same way. The refs always stop games when there is a slight touch (a reason why I have low or zero respect for many leagues out there). In EPL, there is greater variety. In spain, is there occasions such as here: imagine a wet and wintery night away at stoke inside the Bittannia stadium. This epitomises why the EPL is better: football is about physicality just as much as technical ability. Messi on a wet and wintery night at the Britannia? Won't stand a chance. Ask Ronaldo where he found it tougher, La liga or EPL? You will have half your answer. After all, his stats don't lie.... (just realised: shakira and pique - haha)
Posted 17:36 11th February 2013
James Howett (Manchester United fan) says...
To be fair, the Premier League is tougher than La Liga, Spanish League doesn't have tough places like Stoke, Newcastle, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, probably the whole Premier League teams to go too, the only tough places in Spain to go to are Valencia, Baca, two Madrid sides Bottom line of all La Liga will always be in the shadow of the Premier League Just because Spain win internationally, doesn't mean they have the best league, most of the players that play in Spain's side come from Barca or Madrid
Posted 17:33 11th February 2013


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UPDATE MONDAY 2.21PM: Cumbria police reopen A595 north of Millom
Last updated at 14:58, Monday, 25 March 2013
CUMBRIA police have announced the A595 is now open north of Millom and passable with care – but remains closed due to snow at Whicham Valley.
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- A595 open and passable with care – except at Whicham Valley
- Motorists advised to use Millom town centre route instead
- A6 closed between Shap and Kendal
- Work ongoing to clear blocked roads
- A686 at Hartside is passable with care
- A6 over Shap is open
- B6277, B6276 and the A592 at Kirkstone are still closed.
Snow remains on the A595 at Whicham Valley and motorists are advised to take the Millom town centre route around the blocked section of road.
Following earlier appeals for people who have abandoned their cars on the A595, there are still a few cars that remain on the road.
Police are asking anyone who abandoned their car on the A595 due to the treacherous conditions to call 101 so they can be reunited with their vehicle. Car blocking the road were removed to lay-bys and there are still a few yet to be collected.
Just before 1pm it was announced the blockages along the A595 north of Millom had been cleared.
The following roads are passable with care:
- A595 north of Millom
- M6 Hackthorpe to Shap
- A6 Shap
- A590 Barrow to the M6
- A5092 Grizebeck
- A595 Carlisle to Cockermouth
- A595 from Dalton to Grizebeck
- A591 at Thirlmere
- A689, Killhope Summit
- A66 at Stainmore
The following roads are closed:
• A6 from Shap Toll Bar to Kendal Caravans
• A592 Kirkstone Pass
• A686 at Hartside
• A5091 at Dockray
• A683 Closed in places
• B6276 between Brough to Middleton in Teasdale
• B6259 at Kirby Stephen Garsdale
• B6277 Alston to Middleton in Teasdale
• B5322 St Johns in the vale
• C2011 Pattenfoot to Boltongate
• U2136 Clea Hill to Park End
• U2131 Bankside to Catlands
• U2132 Carlisle Gate to Catlands
• C2021 Aughertree to Uldale
• U2156 Linewath to Townhead Hesket
• U2111 Prior Hall Mill
• C2011 Bankside Boltongate
• U2121 Highside to Bassenthwaite
• U2118 Highside to Uldale
If your journey is absolutely essential, please see safety advice previously issued and on our website regarding travelling and driving in these severe conditions and plan your journey to avoid affected roads.
Cumbria Police are continuing to urge people to look after each other this morning and to check on family and neighbours, especially the vulnerable, elderly and those who are without power as the effects of the snow and bad weather continue. It is very important that everyone takes time to check on those nearby to ensure that people are warm and have the essential things that they need today.
Anyone planning to visit the county over the next few days – and particularly those intending to walk in the fells – is advised to check the latest weather forecast and take the necessary precautions.
If your journey is absolutely essential, police offer the following advice:
- Plan your journey in advance
- Check weather forecasts and tune into local radio stations to check road conditions and closures
- Tell someone at your destination what time you expect to arrive
- Make sure you are equipped with warm clothes, food, boots, a torch and a spade
- Clear your windows and mirrors before you set out and carry a screen scraper and de-icer
Meanwhile police are also advising people to check their website for updates as they are receiving a high number of calls.
Up to date information about the roads and weather conditions is available on the police website: www.cumbria.police.uk
People can also visit the Traffic Link map at http://www.cumbria.police.uk/traffic-link-map to keep up to date with the latest situation on the roads, as well as following "cumbriapolice" facebook and twitter accounts.
First published at 10:50, Sunday, 24 March 2013
Published by http://www.nwemail.co.uk
Have your say
Phil Chapman is a good mate of mine. He has always been a great, generous guy. Would expect nothing less from him in a situation like this. Well done Phil.
I was in the van in front of the car that Terry Harvey-Chadwic was in as seen on photo 37 that he had taken.
Thankyou to ALL the rescue teams/police and copeland council for rescuing us and looking after us.
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The Directory of Open Access Books is a service of OAPEN Foundation. The OAPEN Foundation is an international initiative dedicated to Open Access monograph publishing, based at the National Library in The Hague. DOAB contains more than 1,000 academic peer-reviewed books from more than two dozen publishers.
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Stories from people who were children during World War II and the objects in this exhibit animate the past and inform us of a time when war took over daily life. "Retrospect is a very interesting thing," says Ruthie Kallnder. "At the time I don't recall any of the information we got as being propaganda," but the government tried to influence children to make "necessary" sacrifices. Propagandists made the war a battle between good and evil, democracy and fascism. They also asked children to share in the war effort. In response, many children took on more responsibilities. Ruthie explains that boys and girls felt "if that's what it was going to take" to win they "were willing to do it." The memories of the people in this exhibit and their wartime actions show the power of propaganda's messages and its lasting affect on their lives. Propaganda posters, children's books, and classroom assignments demonstrate how propagandists reached children and involved them in the national war effort.
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ESUG has assembled a DVD-ROM with smalltalk systems, books and tutorials.
The DVD-R contains the following Smalltalk Systems as Test/Full/Non Commercial Version:
Also included: free out of print books, tutorials, lectures, columns, articles about smalltalk... and more.
For Squeak, a dedicated DVD is available. More information at http://squeak.org/Download/SqueakDVD/.
The DVD is available for $9.98 (worldwide shipping)
Payment is managed by PayPal, the DVDs are produced by swiftCD.
The DVD will be mailed within 48 business hours after we receive your order.
It's mailed via US Postal Service, using First Class/Air Mail.
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As the Videos do not fit on the DVD, there is a special DVD with videos available: MediaDVD.


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I've got a feeling that because of the patriot act if terrorism is possibly maybe suspected then homeland security don't need to worry about human rights let alone Miranda rights, although in this case I don't think they should be entitled to human rights. When you cease to accord others with basic human rights why should you be entitled to them?
In this case the Miranda rights seem to be irrelevant if he can't communicate, but who knows what will happen later?


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Hi, I'm back at last...
My American penpal has sent me three paperback Discworld books.....
The Fifth Elephant
Night Watch
Going Postal.
She found them in a thrift shop, (our charity shops here). She is a lovely lady.
So I now have three more for my collection.
Is anyone else collecting American versions as well as the British copies?


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So... Who won?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. All typos are Auto-Correct's fault, not mine
BNA - For Australian and visiting cyclists from Road to MTB, to Track to Freestyle
Win a free bike service in Brisbane
Win a free bike service in Brisbane
So... Who won?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. All typos are Auto-Correct's fault, not mine
One of the best things about bicycle commuting is that it can mitigate the displeasure of having to go to work. - BikeSnobNYC
Cycling is sometimes like bobbing for apples in a bucket full of dicks. - SydGuy
Re: Win a free bike service in Brisbane
Rhubarb is the winner!
(And you would be suprised to know that some smarties who should have known the answer missed out.)
Thank you very much to Bicycle Stu for kindly offering this to the BNA community.
Apologies for the slow reaction - this escaped my attention with the BNA Crowd Funding Promo running.
$5157 Raised for my Adelaide to Darwin charity ride:
Keep supporting! TourXOz Details and Fundraising
Re: Win a free bike service in Brisbane
Excellent news - thank you very much !!!!
I will hopefully be able to provide a review in the next few weeks.
Merry Christmas to all.
Re: Win a free bike service in Brisbane
is that when you take my bike in?
Win a free bike service in Brisbane
Congrats, Rhubarb
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. All typos are Auto-Correct's fault, not mine
One of the best things about bicycle commuting is that it can mitigate the displeasure of having to go to work. - BikeSnobNYC
Cycling is sometimes like bobbing for apples in a bucket full of dicks. - SydGuy
Re: Win a free bike service in Brisbane
OK - so here is my review of this Bicycle Service from Brisbane based mobile bicycle mechanic, Bicycle Stu (see http://www.bicyclestu.net for details).
Firstly, from a customer service perspective, Stu provided prompt responses to my emails and phone calls. He called to discuss options and was flexible in term of how and what I wanted done (eg pickup and return or service onsite etc). He explained up front what was included in the standard free service I had won, and was happy to negotiate some of this to suit my requirements, then quote for some other things I wanted done which were additional. All additional charges were reasonable and quoted up front. He turned up at the time he said he was going to, and performed the service in the time he said it would take. The end bill was sent electronically and I was able to pay online.
Now my bike is a 2010 Malvern Star Oppy C5 carbon fibre road bike with shimano 105 groupset and Mavic Aksium wheels. The bike is 2 years old and has done around 12,000 kms of all weather commuting. I bought the bike online (for a steal ) from a bike shop that had closed down and so came in a box for me to assemble myself. Since then, I have always done my own basic servicing, replacing tyres, brake pads, chains etc as well as tuning of gears. However, there was a couple of things that I have not been able to tune satisfactorily that Stu did an excellent job of. Mainly my headset which has always prone to making unsightly creaking/cracking noises. I had dissassembled, cleaned, greased and reassembled this a couple of times and only really been able to minimise but never eliminate the noises. Stu had a good look at that, found no basic problems, serviced and reassembled it and the noises are all gone !!!
He also picked up a couple of other issues like my rear derailleur hanger was bent 5 degrees. Hard to see by eye, but his special tool enabled him to detect and realign this. The rear shifting is definitely better although I had the read gear cable replaced at the same time so hard to tell how much is due to which issue.
So from a technical perspective, I thought Stu was very thorough in his approach and did a really good job on my bike. It certainly brought the "new bike" feel back to it, over and above what I was getting with my own servicing - primarily due to the headset and rear derailleur issues.
The other value I derived from the service was education. As a mobile mechanic, he brought all his tools and gear to my place and was happy for me to watch and discuss things as we went along. I enjoyed and learnt a lot from this.
So for people who get their bikes serviced, I'd definitely recommend him. He's technically very good and was great to deal with. His pricing also seems very reasonable compared to others.
For people who do their own servicing, I would also recommend considering him in his "come to you" format, for the benefits as described above.
See http://www.bicyclestu.net for details.
Thanks to Stuart Wickham (aka Bicycle Stu) and BNA Forums for the free service.
Re: Win a free bike service in Brisbane
Good review. Glad to hear that it went well and eventhough you are a pretty experienced bike rider, he also picked up on other things. That's a sign of a good mechanic. Now, do we have someone similar in Sydney?
Amateur oenologist and green-friendly commuter.
Re: Win a free bike service in Brisbane
Forward directional retardation device?
Glad to see the service helped. Unfortunately I don't live in Brisbane! (Or maybe fortunately...)
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How to Apply:
-After shampooing with the Kiehl's Shampoo appropriate for your hair and scalp type, rinse hair thoroughly
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