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The University of West Florida (UWF) offers over 500 online course sections each semester that lead to undergraduate and graduate degrees as well as credit-earning certificates. Admittance to one of our 30 degree or certificate programs provides the opportunity to apply for an out-of-state tuition waiver that substantially reduces tuition for non-Florida residents. For more information about UWF's accreditation statuses, please visit our regional accreditation site http://uwf.edu/sacscoc/ and discipline-specific accreditation site http://uwf.edu/accreditation/.
UWF State Authorization Status
University of West Florida named Military Advanced Education Top College & Universities.
UWF named "Best For Vets Colleges" by Military Times and "Military Friendly" for the "Seventh" consecutive year!


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Horror, Suspense/Thriller
A successful radiologist has her life spiral out of control when she sees the spitting image of herself driving down a London street. While attempting to uncover who the imposter could be, she stumbles into a terrifying mystery that her family and closest friends are somehow involved in, leaving her with no one she can trust.
Rated R for some violence, brief sexuality/nudity and language.
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Cast: Lena Headey, Michelle Duncan, Richard Jenkins, Melvil Poupaud, Asier Newman
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Running time: 1hr 28min
Opens: Jan 09, 2009 Limited

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A farm is an area of land, including various structures, devoted primarily to the practice of producing and managing food (produce, grains, or livestock), fibers and, increasingly, fuel. It is the basic production facility in food production. Farms may be owned and operated by a single individual, family, community, corporation or a company. A farm can be a holding of any size from a fraction of a hectare to several thousand hectares.
A business producing tree fruits or nuts is called an orchard; a vineyard produces raisins, wine or table grapes. The stable is used for operations principally involved in the training of horses. Stud and commercial farms breed and produce other animals and livestock. A farm that is primarily used for the production of milk and dairy is a dairy farm. A market garden or truck farm is a farm that grows vegetables, but little or no grain. Additional specialty farms include fish farms, which raise fish in captivity as a food source, and tree farms, which grow trees for sale for transplant, lumber, or decorative use. A plantation is usually a large farm or estate, on which cotton, tobacco, coffee or sugar cane, are cultivated, usually by resident laborers.
The development of farming and farms was an important component in establishing towns. Once people have moved from hunting and/or gathering and from simple horticulture to active farming, social arrangements of roads, distribution, collection, and marketing can evolve. With the exception of plantations and colonial farms, farm sizes tend to be small in newly-settled lands and to extend as transportation and markets become sophisticated. Farming rights have been the central tenet of a number of revolutions, wars of liberation, and post-colonial economics.
Traditionally, the goal of farming was to create a profit, and to produce an amount of cultivated material (i.e. corn, wheat, etc) so that the resulting harvest has more worth than the cost of planting such a harvest. The costs could include the acquisition of seeds as well as the time and energy required to tend to such a venture. The resulting product is often used to sustain those who farm as both a food to eat and a commodity to sell.
Dairy farming is a class of agriculture, where female cattle, goats, or other mammals are raised for their milk, which may be either processed on-site or transported to a dairy for processing and eventual retail sale.
In most Western countries, a centralized dairy facility processes milk and dairy products, such as cream, butter, and cheese. In the United States, these dairies are usually local companies, while in the southern hemisphere facilities may be run by very large nationwide or trans-national corporations (such as Fonterra).
Dairy farms generally sell the male calves borne by their mothers for veal meat, as dairy breeds are not normally satisfactory for commercial beef production. Many dairy farms also grow their own feed, typically including corn, alfalfa, and hay. This is fed directly to the cows, or stored as silage for use during the winter season. Additional dietary supplements are added to the feed to improve milk production.
Poultry farms are devoted to raising chickens, turkeys, ducks, and other fowl, generally for meat or eggs.
Farm control and ownership has traditionally been a key indicator of status and power, especially in agrarian societies. The distribution of farm ownership has historically been closely linked to form of government. Medieval feudalism was essentially a system that centralized control of farmland, control of farm labor and political power, while the early American democracy, in which land ownership was a prerequisite for voting rights, was built on relatively easy paths to individual farm ownership. However, the gradual modernization and mechanization of farming, which greatly increases both the efficiency and capital requirements of farming, has led to increasingly large farms owned by individuals or corporations. This has usually been accompanied by the decoupling of political power from farm ownership.
The practice of agriculture first began around 8000 BC in the Fertile Crescent of Mesopotamia (part of present day Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Jordan which was then greener).
In the UK, farm as an agricultural unit, always denotes the area of pasture and other fields together with its farmhouse and farmyard, barns, cowsheds, stables, etc. In England there is a vague point when a large farm ceases to be referred to as a farm and becomes an estate; although this term can refer to a collection of farms in the same ownership.
The land and buildings of a farm are called the "farmstead." Enterprises where livestock are raised on rangeland are called ranches. Where livestock are raised in confinement on feed produced elsewhere, the term feedlot is usually used
In 1910 there were 6,406,000 farms and 10,174,000 family workers; In 2000 there were only 2,172,000 farms and 2,062,300 family workers.
In the United States, eighty-one percent of all farmworkers are migrant workers, and seventy-one percent are foreign-born. Eighty percent of farmworkers are men, with the average age being 31. Additionally, farmworkers earn less than $75,000 per year, making an average hourly rate of less than $27.00. On average, farmworker families earn $10,000 per year, which is significantly below the 2005 U.S. poverty level of $19,874 for a family of four.
In 2007, corn acres are expected to increase by 15% because of the high demand for ethanol, both in and outside of the U.S. Producers are expecting to plant 90.5 million acres (366,000 km²) of corn, making it the largest corn crop since 1944.
Where most of the income is from some other employment, and the farm is really an expanded residence, the term hobby farm is common. This will allow sufficient size for recreational use but be very unlikely to produce sufficient income to be self-sustaining. Hobby farms are commonly around but may be much larger depending upon land prices (which vary regionally).
Often very small farms used for intensive primary production are referred to by the specialization they are being used for, such as a dairy rather than a dairy farm, a piggery, a market garden, etc. This also applies to feedlots, which are specifically developed to a single purpose and are often not able to be used for more general purpose (mixed) farming practices.
In remote areas farms can become quite large. As with estates in England, there is no defined size or method of operation at which a large farm becomes a station.
Regardless of size, the term station is only used for farms where the main activity is grazing. Some cotton farms in north-western New South Wales or south-western Queensland have been formed by combining previous sheep stations once sufficient water has become available to allow cotton to be grown.
Farms require buildings to facilitate the action of farming the material at hand. Such buildings can include a farm house (for the farmers), a grain silo (for storing grain), and a barn (for the storing of certain animals.)


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Well see how a green fence and the trainer distract from the subject, in this case, the dog. You need to move around and find better angles. And what focus are you using? AF-S, AF-C, A?
AF-C (AF continuous, sometimes called continuous servo) is good use when photographing moving objects. When your camera is set to AF-C and you focus on a moving subject, for example a dog running towards you, the focus will stay on the animal so long as your shutter button is held half way down. In other words, the camera will keep re-focusing as the animal moves. That is, so long as you keep your shutter button held half way down.
AF-S (AF single, sometimes called single area AF) mode, is good for photographing subjects that don't move, such as flowers or portraits etc. It locks the focus on the non moving object that you want to photograph. You can then recompose the shot and take the photograph.
AF-A is where the camera selects and goes between the last two modes. If it thinks the subject you are photographing is stationary, then it will automatically use AF-Sfocus mode. If it picks up that the subject you're photographing is a moving subject, then it will automatically use AF-C focus mode. This is also the default camera focus mode, unless you change the setting to AF-C or AF-S.
Also, don't be afraid to use high ISO, you can remove some noise with post processing.
quick google search as an example:
This last one was taken by a Canon 5D Mark II ( and probably better lens) and notice the dogs face is completely isn't completely sharp.


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As mentioned in the WDN meeting yesterday, the UNL Tour is currently under redevelopment. Please feel free to add suggestions and / or content to this thread or contact me (Aaron Coleman, Communications) personally.
This is the site currently under development. It's obviously rough around the edges, and needs some polish as well as a fair amount of content yet.
This is the GIS, flash-based app that we're using to plot the points on the current map.
This is the flash-based app we're using in combination with worldkit for the zooming feature on the map.
Brett Bieber has done a huge amount of PHP and javascript work on this project to date as well, so one of us should be able to answer any questions that you may have about how everything is pulled together.


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Bosnia and Herzegovina
News about Bosnia and Herzegovina, including commentary and archival articles published in The New York Times.
Chronology of Coverage
Jun. 25, 2015
Bosnian court sentences former soldiers Bosiljko Markovic and Ostoja Markovic to 10 years in prison and orders them to pay $15,160 to Croatian woman they raped during Serb attack on her village in 1992; trailblazing verdict paves way for legal practice adjustments that could bring war criminals to justice and compensate their victims in one trial. MORE
Jun. 7, 2015
Pope Francis, during visit to Bosnia, calls for religious reconciliation and end to sectarian conflicts, both in that country and around world. MORE
Mar. 19, 2015
Prosecutors in Serbia say eight men suspected of participation in 1995 Srebrenica massacre have been arrested; is first apprehension of any of those accused of killing Bosnians in Europe's worst slaughter since World War II. MORE
Mar. 1, 2015
Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials say they will deport at least 150 Bosnians who they believe participated in war crimes during 1990s conflict in former Yugoslavia; say they have identified 300 immigrants who came to United States and concealed their involvement in wartime atrocities. MORE
Dec. 6, 2014
Serbia and Bosnia, former enemies, cooperate to arrest 5 Serbs and 10 Bosnian Serbs more than two decades after torture and murder of about 20 people at a remote rail depot in Bosnia and Herzegovina; arrests are reminder of the unresolved crimes of the conflict in the former Yugoslavia; members of Bosnian Serb militia are also captured, and prosecutors hope to glean more information from them about their superiors who spearheaded massacre. MORE
Nov. 14, 2014
Police in Bosnia arrest 11 people accused of fighting alongside Islamist militants in Syria and Iraq or recruiting and raising money for such groups. MORE
Nov. 6, 2014
United Nations war crimes tribunal in The Hague proposes temporary release for Vojislav Seselj, Serbian nationalist leader whose health has seriously deteriorated while awaiting end of his long-running trial; Seselj is charged with inciting others to commit war crimes in Croatia and in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1990s. MORE
Oct. 8, 2014
War crimes trial of Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic ends following four years of hearings and testimony; prosecutors call for the conviction and life imprisonment of Karadzic on 11 charges, including genocide, stemming from the 1992-95 war; Karadzic proclaims his innocence. MORE
Sep. 30, 2014
Prosecutors demand life sentence for former Bosnian leader Radovan Karadzic as his trial for war crimes draws to close. MORE
Jul. 17, 2014
Dutch court rules that Netherlands government is liable for the deaths of about 300 victims of the 1995 Srebrenica massacre in Bosnia, Europe's worst ethnically motivated mass murder since World War II, saying that United Nations team of Dutch peacekeepers failed to prevent those deaths. MORE
Jun. 30, 2014
Vienna Philharmonic performs at centenary weekend celebration in Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina, marking 100 years since assassination that unleashed World War I; orchestra's selections are chosen carefully in effort to remember past events and to express hopes that country may see end to sectarian strife and eventually join European Union. MORE
Jun. 27, 2014
Nationalist and sectarian passions continue to haunt Bosnia, which was ravaged by a civil war just two decades ago; nation is even now the scene of dueling efforts to define the legacy of Gavrilo Princip, Bosnian Serb who assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie, setting off World War I. MORE
Jun. 11, 2014
Ethnic enclave in St Louis known as Little Bosnia is joyfully preparing for Bosnia's first appearance in the World Cup; an estimated 40,000 to 70,000 Bosnians settled in St Louis following war in the newly independent Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina some 20 years ago. MORE
Jun. 1, 2014
Remains of those killed in the genocide that occurred in Srebenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, during the Bosnian war continue to turn up, part of international effort to identify victims and perpetrators of the war; effort is unsettling reconciliation between Muslims and Serbs in the town, which was the site of the worst slaughter to occur in Europe since World War II. MORE
May. 19, 2014
Torrential rains in Serbia and Bosnia cause most intense flooding region has seen since record-keeping began over century ago, and result in 33 deaths and thousands of evacuations; rains cause landslides and widespread destruction. MORE
Apr. 16, 2014
Judges at The Hague refuse to throw out two charges of genocide against former Bosnian Serb military commander Ratko Mladic, saying there is enough evidence for his war-crimes trial to continue on all counts. MORE
Feb. 23, 2014
Op-Ed article by author Aleksandar Hemon and scholar Jasmin Mujanovic contends it is amazing that Bosnian elites thought the situation in their country was sustainable and that they are shocked by the uprising of united citizens; maintains America and the European Union must stand with the Bosnian people against the leaders. MORE
Feb. 19, 2014
Op-Ed article by Croatian philosopher and author Srecko Horvat describes how protesters across Bosnia and Herzegovina are organizing plenums to create alternative governments by night, even as they occupy streets and public squares by day; contends that the situation shows that the people of the country are no longer interested in European Union or other outside intervention, and that they are struggling to create a better country for themselves. MORE
Feb. 15, 2014
Bosnians, diplomats and analysts say the violence that erupted across Bosnia and Herzegovina has roots that can be traced to the 1995 Dayton accords, which brought peace but imposed a dysfunctional government that has stymied progress. MORE
Feb. 11, 2014
Bosnia's most widespread antigovernment protests in almost two decades shut down the center of Sarajevo and five other cities as demonstrators vent their anger at politicians whom they view as self-serving and corrupt. MORE
Feb. 8, 2014
Thousands of angry Bosnians take to the streets for a fourth day of protests against the political paralysis and economic stagnation that have engulfed one of Europe's poorest and most divided countries. MORE
Jan. 22, 2014
Op-Ed article by author Philippe Leroux-Martin warns that peace talks between the government of Syria's Pres Bashar al-Assad and the Syrian opposition face daunting challenges; outlines parallels between Syria and Bosnia that could serve as lessons for the peace process. MORE
Aug. 31, 2013
Frederik Harhoff, Danish judge who criticized the president of the United Nations tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and the court's decisions, is removed from his current case on the grounds that his remarks make him appear to be biased. MORE
Aug. 31, 2013
More than 2,000 Serbians welcome home Momcilo Krajisnik, who was convicted in 2000 by the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal of persecuting and forcibly expelling non-Serbs during the war in Bosnia in 1990s; Krajisnik was released from prison after serving two-thirds of his 20-year sentence. MORE
Jul. 12, 2013
Appeals judges at United Nations war crimes tribunal in The Hague reinstate genocide charge against Radovan Karadzic, wartime leader of Bosnian Serbs, reversing 2012 decision by lower court; ruling means Karadzic will once again face two genocide charges for much of the brutal campaign across large parts of Bosnia during the 1992-1995 war. MORE
Jul. 10, 2013
Thousands of mourners line streets of Sarajevo as trucks carry remains of 409 newly identified victims of 1995 Srebrenica massacre to their final resting place in village of Potocari. MORE
Jun. 15, 2013
Frederik Harhoff of Denmark, judge at International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, exposes deep rift at court's highest levels, suggesting in blistering letter that court's American president Theodor Meron pressured other judges into approving acquittals of top Serb and Croat commanders accused of atrocities during wars in Bosnia and Croatia in 1990s. MORE
Jun. 8, 2013
About 1,500 lawmakers, government employees and foreign guests are freed after thousands of irate protesters form human chain around Bosnian Parliament building in Sarajevo for 14 hours to demonstrate against impasse over law on identification documents; previous law lapsed in February, leaving all babies born since then without identification documents necessary to travel abroad or see a doctor. MORE
May. 30, 2013
United Nations tribunal in The Hague convicts 6 Bosnian Croats of persecuting and murdering Muslim civilians as part of 'ethnic cleansing' campaign during 1992-95 Bosnian war. MORE
May. 26, 2013
United Nations war crimes tribunal is set to issue verdicts for Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic, high-ranking officials under Serbian Pres Slobodan Milosevic, potentially providing link legally tying Serbian state to war crimes in Bosnia and Croatia. MORE
Apr. 27, 2013
Bosnian police arrest Zivko Budimir, president of the Bosnian-Croat Federation, and 18 others as part of corruption investigation. MORE
Mar. 28, 2013
Yugoslav war crimes tribunal convicts Bosnian Serb police chiefs Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zuplanin for participating in violent ethnic cleansing campaign against non-Serbs during war of early 1990s. MORE
Mar. 1, 2013
United Nations appeals court overturns war crimes conviction of Momcilo Perisic, former Yugoslav Army chief who was sentenced to 27 years in prison for aiding and abetting atrocities in Bosnia and Croatia; decision, coming as shock to victims' groups, is one of series of such reversals appearing to change story line of war by narrowing definition of crimes for which military leaders can be held responsible. MORE
Jan. 18, 2013
United Nations apologizes for standing ovation during conclusion of Serbian song March on the Drina at concert in United Nations General Assembly; Secretary Gen Ban Ki Moon and other senior officials did not realize that song is associated with massacres carried out in 1990s against civilians under protection of United Nations peacekeepers; Bosnian survivor organizations protested paying of song and reaction to it. MORE
Dec. 13, 2012
Zdravko Tolimir, former senior commander of Bosnian Serb Army, is convicted by United Nations tribunal of genocide and sentenced to life in prison for his role in killings of thousands of prisoners near Bosnian town of Srebrenica in July 1995. MORE
Nov. 17, 2012
United Nations appeals court in The Hague unexpectedly overturns war crimes convictions of Croatian generals Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markac, who led 1995 campaign that helped end wars involving Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia but also left several hundred Serbian civilians dead and drove more than 150,000 from their homes. MORE
Oct. 31, 2012
Sec of State Hillary Clinton urges Bosnian leaders to work together and warns that their country could fall behind the rest of Europe if they do not make overdue reforms; comments are made during joint trip made with European Union official Catherine Ashton; trip is meant to encourage Bosnia, Serbia and Kosovo to resolve lingering disputes and advance their political and economic integration with Europe. MORE
Oct. 17, 2012
Bosnian Serb wartime leader Radovan Karadzic, once known for his virulent speeches, tells international judges in new phase of his genocide trial that he is a 'mild' and 'tolerant' man and that he did everything in his power to stop the war in Bosnia. MORE
Jul. 10, 2012
Trial of Ratko Mladic, the wartime Bosnian Serb general, resumes after a break for his defense team to prepare; Elvedin Pasic breaks down in tears several times as he testifies about one of the 1992-95 Bosnian war's early large-scale killings of civilians that included many of his friends and relatives. MORE
Jun. 29, 2012
Radovan Karadzic, the former Bosnian Serb psychiatrist who became a nationalist wartime leader, fails in his bid to get his war crimes trial in The Hague halted and have all charges thrown out for lack of sufficient evidence; two counts are dropped but he will stand trial on the remaining count of genocide for his role in the massacre at Srebrenica in 1995, as well as on nine other counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity from the 1992-95 war in Bosnia. MORE
May. 25, 2012
War crimes trial of Ratko Mladic, the former Bosnian Serb general, will resume one month later than originally planned after a judge grants his defense team extra time to prepare. MORE
May. 18, 2012
Prosecutors, on the second day of the genocide trial of the former Bosnian Serb military commander Ratko Mladic, describe in detail the events leading to and during the 1995 massacre of some 8,000 men and boys in Srebrenica; as session adjourns, judges order further proceedings postponed until more evidence can be disclosed to the defense. MORE
May. 17, 2012
Ratko Mladic, the former Bosnian Serb military commander who ran a deadly campaign in the 1990s, goes on trial at The Hague for war crimes, genocide and related charges; he has refused to enter a formal plea but says he is not guilty of wrongdoing; courtroom is filled with relatives of victims he is alleged to have killed or ordered killed. MORE
May. 4, 2012
Op-Ed article by Kenan Trebincevic describes how the deep resentment inspired by ethnic conflict in the former Yugoslavia persists, even in the immigrant community in Queens, NYC. MORE
Apr. 25, 2012
Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia and Montenegro announce that they have raised about $395 million to help house 74,000 people who have been living as refugees for more than two decades after fleeing their homes during the wars in the former Yugoslavia. MORE
Feb. 16, 2012
Yugoslav war crimes tribunal at The Hague pushes back the start of the long-awaited genocide trial of former Bosnian Serb military chief Gen Ratko Mladic to May 14 to allow Mladic's lawyers more time to prepare. MORE
Dec. 28, 2011
United States extradites Muslim Bosnian woman Rasema Handanovic, who is suspected of taking part in the mass killings of Croatian civilians in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1993, when she was a member of a special unit of the Bosnian Army. MORE
Dec. 7, 2011
Premiere of movie In the Land of Blood and Honey, which recounts Bosnian war of the 1990s, casts spotlight on Angelina Jolie, who wrote, directed and co-produced it; Jolie says film, which is the first she has directed, grew organically out of her interest in foreign affairs. MORE
Dec. 4, 2011
Kenan Trebincevic Lives essay describes returning to Bosnia and confronting a neighbor who had stolen from his family 18 years earlier because they were Muslim. MORE
Nov. 6, 2011
Court officials of International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia fear that declining health of former Bosnian Serb general Ratko Mladic may shape war crimes case against him. MORE
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Bosnia-Herzegovina: Court Grants Compensation to War Crimes Victim
The former soldiers were sentenced to 10 years in prison and ordered to pay $15,160 to a Croat woman they raped during the Serb attack on her village in 1992.
June 25, 2015, Thursday
MORE ON BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA AND: Bosnia and Herzegovina , War Crimes, Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity , Sex Crimes , Croatia , Reparations
Pope Francis Urges a Divided Bosnia to Heal, Declaring 'War Never Again!'
Pope Francis praised the progress Bosnia made since the bloody ethnic conflict of the 1990s and urged an end to the sectarian conflicts around the world.
June 7, 2015, Sunday
MORE ON BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA AND: Bosnia and Herzegovina , Francis , Roman Catholic Church
John F. Burns Answers Readers' Questions on Experiencing History
The two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning correspondent on war reporting, his views on our future and his dreams of meeting Mao Zedong.
April 4, 2015, Saturday
MORE ON BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA AND: Burns, John F , Iraq , China , Bosnia and Herzegovina , Iraq War (2003-11) , News and News Media , New York Times , Afghanistan War (2001-14) , Human Rights and Human Rights Violations , Cold War Era , Cultural Revolution , Taliban , Afghanistan
Serbia Arrests Eight Suspected in 1995 Srebrenica Massacre
The detentions apparently represented a widening of the prosecution beyond high-level officials and commanders.
March 19, 2015, Thursday
MORE ON BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA AND: Serbia , War Crimes, Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity , Bosnia and Herzegovina , Defense and Military Forces , International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia , United Nations , Karadzic, Radovan , Mladic, Ratko , Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina)
My Mother's Shadow
I didn't believe a rescued dog could turn us back into the normal, happy family we were in Bosnia before the war.
March 9, 2015, Monday
MORE ON BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA AND: Bosnia and Herzegovina , Connecticut , Dogs , Families and Family Life
U.S. Seeks to Deport Bosnians Over War Crimes
Immigration officials are moving to deport at least 150 Bosnians living in the United States who they say took part in war crimes in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s.
March 1, 2015, Sunday
MORE ON BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA AND: Immigration and Customs Enforcement (US) , Milosevic, Slobodan , Mutic, Slobodan , Bosnia and Herzegovina , War Crimes, Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity , Immigration and Emigration , Deportation , Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina) , United States , Yugoslavia , MacQueen, Michael (Historian) , Boskic, Marko
The Hague: Srebrenica Massacre Verdicts Are Upheld
Appeals judges at the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal in The Hague on Friday upheld genocide convictions against two senior Bosnian Serbs for their roles in the 1995 Srebrenica massacre.
January 31, 2015, Saturday
MORE ON BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA AND: War Crimes, Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity , Srebrenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina) , Muslims and Islam , Sentences (Criminal) , Bosnia and Herzegovina , Hague (Netherlands)
15 Serbs Are Arrested in Connection With 1993 Massacre
Officials in Bosnia and neighboring Serbia cooperated to make the arrests in the torture and murder of about 20 people at a remote Bosnian rail depot.
December 6, 2014, Saturday
MORE ON BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA AND: War Crimes, Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity , Bosnia and Herzegovina , Serbia
Bosnia: 11 Accused of Assisting Militants
The police on Thursday arrested 11 people accused of fighting alongside Islamist militants in Syria and Iraq or recruiting and raising money for such groups.
November 14, 2014, Friday
MORE ON BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA AND: Bosnia and Herzegovina , Syria , Iraq , Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) , Balkan States , Muslims and Islam
Vojislav Seselj, on Trial for War Crimes, Is Offered Temporary Release
The Serb nationalist leader, who has cancer of the liver, was offered a chance by a United Nations tribunal to leave The Hague to receive treatment.
November 6, 2014, Thursday
MORE ON BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA AND: Seselj, Vojislav , Serbia , War Crimes, Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity , International Criminal Court , Bosnia and Herzegovina , Croatia , United Nations , International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia
In Some Bosnian Schools, Ethnic Divisions Remain
In the small town of Vitez, a divided school helps illustrate the divisions of Bosnia as a whole.
Meeting Ratko Mladic
The Op-Ed columnist Roger Cohen recalls meeting Ratko Mladic in Belgrade in 1992.
TimesCast | May 26, 2011
The political maneuvering behind the capture of Ratko Mladic; the history of his war crimes; and the Op-Ed columnist Roger Cohen describes meeting Mr. Mladic.
Train From Sarajevo to Belgrade Revived
The famous train line from Sarajevo to Belgrade was disrupted during the Balkan conflict in the 1990s.
The Emperor of Pale
Three writers who reported on the war in Bosnia react to the capture of Radovan Karadzic and discuss his role in the "ethnic cleansing" that tore the nation apart.
Rss Feeds On Bosnia and Herzegovina
Subscribe to an RSS feed on this topic. What is RSS?
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Today In Pictures: April 10, 2013
Officials inspect the carcass of a poached rhino, April 9, 2013, in Kruger National Park, Satara camp, South Africa. So far in 2013, 203 rhinos have been poached and 60 poachers have been arrested.
Today In Pictures: April 10, 2013
Officials inspect the carcass of a poached rhino, April 9, 2013, in Kruger National Park, Satara camp, South Africa. So far in 2013, 203 rhinos have been poached and 60 poachers have been arrested.
Today In Pictures: April 10, 2013
People walk past a flowering tree in Manhattan during warm weather, April 9, 2013, in New York City. For the first time since October, temperatures rose above 70 degrees in New York and surrounding areas.
Mario Tama/Getty Images
Today In Pictures: April 10, 2013
Venezuela's acting President Nicolas Maduro holds a picture of the late president Hugo Chavez during a campaign rally in Catia la mar, state of Vargas, April 9, 2013. Venezuelans will elect a new president next April 14. The final stretch of Venezuela's race to replace Hugo Chavez coincides with a delicate anniversary for the opposition: 11 years since a brief coup against the late leftist leader
Luis Acosta/AFP/Getty Images
Today In Pictures: April 10, 2013
Pigeons stand in a pigeonry at Music Square, April 9, 2013, in Qingdao, China. Four new H7N9 avian influenza infections were confirmed in east China on Tuesday. So far, China has reported 28 H7N9 bird flu cases, including nine deaths.
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text:
- Roberto Sciffo
- Nicosia
- Cyprus
This conversation is closed.
Debate: Do vaccines work or are they just another money making tool in a trillion dollar industry?
There is much debate regarding vaccination; imposing on an individual's rights, questionable proof as to their effectiveness, and possible links to neurological diseases like epilepsy and autism.
Vaccines act like a type of homoeopathic remedy in the sense that the 'bug' is introduced into the body so that the autoimmune system may produce anti-bodies to protect against the 'bug'.
But, as far as I can tell, the germ theory was debated in early 1900's and disproved in the 1950's, therefore voiding all need for fighting 'bugs'.
So do vaccines actually work? What proof is there? Or is it more for big profit for big pharma?
I am open to all sides of the story!
Closing Statement from Roberto Sciffo
Thank you all for your contributions. It was a great learning experience, and I am sorry to have missed the last day of commenting due to work. I would have enjoyed commenting on you all individually.
We have heard both sides of the story. Pro-vaccination are happy because it provides safety to us and our children, and the statistics that indicate the effectiveness of the vaccine, and Stephan's comments as to how they work.
We are faced however with a 'small' number of people who have had their children come about with symptoms of reduced development progress through to epilepsy and autism.
We have also wondered whether so many vaccines so soon in life a a great idea, considering the fact that the aluminum levels exceed the 'allowed' amount.
The fact that the heavy metals are toxic and are known to promote dis-ease in the body, is something that I can not stress the importance of enough.
The World Health Organization noted as early as 1974 that heavy metal and chemical toxicity were at the cause of most chronic degenerative diseases.
I appreciate Linda Taylor for her research into what I have stated, and her challenges, will add:
1) the mean size of the zeolites are 0.3 microns therefore able to pass into the blood stream.
2) if you are to perform a detox, it needs to be done in stages so as to make it safe. Little of this information is available online.
3) the study you quote done on zeolites, please send me the link to the study as I would like to investigate it and see what the company has to say. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
4) You quote ' Rock that absorb toxins especially ammonia, might be of value' - Zeolites as well as chlorella have been
use since the 80's I believe, in waste water treatment plants for that very reason, both performing as far as I can tell, equally well at about 50% removal. Both are being used as detox mediums as well.
Thank you all and I hope we have all learned a great deal from this debate. Wishing us all the best!
Nov 15 2012: It is very sad to see what comfort has caused to people... everybody has forgotten diseases as terrible as smallpox or polio. I've seen childs with polio and it is pathetic to know that what happened is that a stupid MD told the fathers that vaccines are useless. Unfortunately, ignorance is a wide spread disease... with no known vaccine.Nov 14 2012: Thank you Setfan,
We have covered this point if you read the other conversations.
They do work. All good there.
It is the combined long term effects that are of concern. Should so much aluminium be given at the same time to children under 5 or 6 years of age when their brain and immune sytems have not yet developed fully?
There are no studies done for combined effects, nor long term effects.
So ultimately, are they protecting us from one virus yet causing damage that opens us to more problems later in life.
If so, then they need to be looked at and amended. And if the damage is great, then their use should be questioned too. There are alternatives.
Nov 14 2012: I can´t give you the thumbs up for the other comment, because apparently I´ve reached the maximum amount of positive ratings that I can give you, but, gosh, would I want to!!Nov 14 2012: Hi Roberto,
I did read the conversations, but I thought I add my point of view as well.
The aluminum and the sort that you are referring to are so called adjuvants. They are intended to boost the immune response because only if there is an immune response to the vaccine will the vaccine do its job (train the immune system to respond to certain markers found in certain pathogens). Unoforunately not all markers are easy to recognize, and so not all vaccines work as easily as smallpox vaccine. HIV, Ebola, Malaria and other horrible sickneses still have no cure and no vaccines because of this very reason. That is why people try different techniques like vaccines augmented to give hightened immune response.
For scientists this is a challange, a way to affirm themselves, for farmaceutical companies a business opportunity and for people who live with these pathogens on a daily basis it represents a great deal of hope.
Unfortunately, medical science is not an exact scienct, what works on paper not always works in lab and what works in lab not always works in the field. People are different, they react differently to various external factors. It is hard work and sometimes it goes wrong.
But the payoff is high. If the smallpox vaccine hadn't been invented, smallpox would probably kill tens of millions of people each year. Flu kills approximately 500 thousand people each year because we only have a partial vaccine for it. Malaria kills even more each year. Maybe 50 years from now, people will look back and say: "This year 500 thousand people didn't die because we have a defence against flu".
Some people do have adverse reaction to vaccines, it is a proven fact, what we don't know is how many of those would have an even worse reaction to the actual disease? These are questions impossible to respond and the are highly subjective. Vaccines do have the potential to cause harm, but they also have a vastly superior potential to prevent it.Nov 15 2012: "It is the combined long term effects that are of concern. Should so much aluminium be given at the same time to children under 5 or 6 years of age when their brain and immune sytems have not yet developed fully?
There are no studies done for combined effects, nor long term effects."
I refer you once again to the list of references I posted below. Many of the studies deal with multiple vaccines and cover over 20 years.Nov 14 2012: Is there any proof that vaccines work? There actually is, a great deal of it, but let me give you just a few:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox. This highly contagious diseases has has killed millions and millons of people along the history. Once caught, there is no cure, one either fights if of or one dies. Various strains have different mortality rate but in general they move around 30% (In every 100 sick people 30 will die). Thanks to vaccination howerver, this disease was erradicated so not a single person dies in our days out of the 7 billion potential candidates that exist out there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio. This one can cause horrible growth defects and paralises, but thanks to vacciences, nobody has it nowadays in the developped world. It could actually be eradicated too, if we would have the discipline and will to do it.
And finally: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies. One can only catch this if an animal with rabies bites you (dog, cat, bat, etc) but if you do cacth it, you better pray to God that vaccines are available before the symptoms occur, because once they do the mortality rate is 99% and the and the way to go is not pretty. With vaccination however, the success of curing is almost 100% (it mostly depends on how early the treatment starts).
Vaccines do work. There are countless other examples, some less impressive, but they are there. People doubt vaccines because there is a commercial aspect to them, but this is the capitalistic way of living. We don't trust it, we don't like it? let's change it. Let's donate money to science and to scientist so that they don't have to work for farmaceutical companies but to NGO's, because they are the people who actually develop the vaccines and whatever their motivation (helping people, fame) their success rate is measured in the success of the vaccines, so you can rest assured that their goal is to make them work.
Sarah M
Nov 10 2012: If you want proof of vaccines working there is a pretty strong one. Smallpox. It has been eradicated because of vaccines. This vaccine saved an estimated 5 million deaths annually due to its eradication. Vaccines have brought seven major human diseases under some degree of control - smallpox, diphtheria, tetanus, yellow fever, whooping cough, polio, and measles. http://www.unicef.org/pon96/hevaccin.htm
- +3
Yes there was concern about the Measles, Mumps Rubella Vaccine and a link to Autism; this was apparently due to mercury being present in the vaccine. This has now been removed.
I am a mother of 2 small children and for me it's a no brainer. There is overwhelming reasons to vaccinate your children and very little medical proof not to.
In Australia we have had major problems with Whooping Cough and Measles. Why because people are not getting their children vaccinated and these diseases are now starting to become a problem again.
This is putting babies, Small children and the elderly at risk.
People have the right to choose what they consider is best for their children. However it's when these children then contract these diseases and pass it on that I am not comfortable with. Some of these diseases are terrible and potentially life threatening.
Comment deleted
Nov 10 2012: "The article also pointed out that "while adults are supposed to have at least one dose of whooping cough vaccine, only 8.2 percent of U.S. adults have done so." Are you one of these adults?"
Newspapers are notoriously bad at reporting health issues. Please try and research the source. Again, media sources are designed to sell papers.
Even if a kid with the vaccination comes down with the disease, they are not gonna get as sick.Nov 10 2012: Thank you for these links.
Sarah M
Nov 10 2012: Your welcome. You need to back up what you say with some fact.
- +1
Nov 10 2012: Indeed, and that also allows people to pursue in greater detail the issues you raise.
Ben Jarvis
Nov 10 2012: i'll give just a single example: the polio vaccine.
- +3
pre-vaccine there were around 350,000 cases a year, down now to around 1,000. that's 349,000 kids who are not left dead or permanently paralysed every single year.
what's the debate?
also where did you get the idea that the germ theory of disease was disproven? did you just make that up?
vaccines are not a moneymaking tool, in fact quite the opposite. it's much much more profitable to treat a disease than to cure or prevent it, as vaccines do.
Sarah M
Nov 10 2012: Well said Ben
- 0
John Smith
Nov 9 2012: Here in the Netherlands polio has virtually been eliminated decades ago, but once in a while there are still small outbreaks, almost always in very religious communities who refuse to have their children vaccinated (and our idiot government grants that wish instead of putting them on trial for child abuse), communities that make up a very small percentage of the general population. That's pretty solid evidence for the effectiveness of vaccines.
- +3
There are medicines that barely work and are just a cashcow for pharmaceutical companies, but those are either for mental illnesses (that are very vaguely defined) or end-of-life stuff for terminal patients, stuff that's not going to heal you anyway, vaccines are not among these medicines.
Nov 10 2012: Given a choice between letting the religious nutters "abusing" their own children by not vaccinating them, and forcing me to vaccinate myself or my own kids against the useless flu vaccines, (or whatever else is fashionable later) I prefer to let the nutters have their way. Of course, if the nutters infect me, they will pay for it ;-)
Pharmaceutical companies do not have an entirely clean track-record either. Their own records range from vitamin cartels (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2001/nov/21/personalfinancenews.europeanunion) to fake research journals. (Cartels are caused by regulations that result in high barriers of entry due to regulations, and fake journals are caused by the powerful monopolies created by overly generous patent-laws.)
Nov 10 2012: Polio, P O L I O, that's what I wrote about, not the flu. And please don't pretend like you're not doing any forcing when you decide to not give your infant child a vaccination for such a serious disease as polio.
"Of course, if the nutters infect me, they will pay for it ;-)"
Yeah, it's funny now, until you really do get polio...
Nov 10 2012: Looking at the US, I see that if a country assumes that if it can force one vaccine, it can force them all. (http://www.idsociety.org/uploadedFiles/IDSA/Policy_and_Advocacy/Current_Topics_and_Issues/Immunizations_and_Vaccines/Health_Care_Worker_Immunization/Related_Links/Mandatory%20Vaccinations%20Precedent%20and%20Current%20laws%20031011.pdf)
Even India is making significant progress by educating, rather than by making things mandatory.
I certainly would vaccinate my kids against polio. Why do you think I wouldn't? But I won't force my neighbour to make him vaccinate his kids too. I would try to educate him.
"Yeah, it's funny now, until you really do get polio..."
Not really... I could sue them when I can make a clear case that they are putting me at risk.
Ben Jarvis
Nov 10 2012: john smith is absolutely right when he calls failure to prevent a deadly disease child abuse. it's terrible that so many people cannot grasp the concept of a restriction on freedom actually giving us more freedom. we're not free to drive on whatever side of the road we choose either yet nobody gets upset about having that freedom curtailed, mostly because it gives us the freedom to get to our destination without incident.
- +1
you make a good point about pharmaceutical companies working for their on profits. however your logic is flawed. if fake journals exist that doesn't mean no journals can be trusted, and likewise if a pharmaceutical company is being dishonest about vitamins that doesn't mean that vaccinations are also suspect.
really there is anti-profit in making vaccinations because then a disease is cured which deprives companies of the profit they would otherwise make from providing a lifetime supply of treatments. in the past it was university-based researchers who worked on a set salary who freed mankind from so many of these killers, and that's what we should return to.
Nov 10 2012: fake journals exist = all journals are untrustworthy???
Please re-read what I wrote.
People choosing what they think is best for their children = endangering OUR lives (not their childrens') by driving on the wrong side of the road?
And you want to talk to me about not grasping concepts?
dishonest about vitamins? I just can't figure out how you contorted my words to extrude THIS meaning. Please do read the article I linked.
I won't even attempt to address your last paragraph.
Linda Taylor
Nov 8 2012: Do you or anyone you know have smallpox or polio?
- +3
Of course they work.
I think the bigger issue is how many are given at once. We here in the US give so many vaccinations at once that I am not sure it is a good thing for a developing immune system.
Nov 9 2012: Hi Linda,
Thanks for your valid comment.
It would seem that they do work, yet my research indicates that the diseases were on their way out (per capita numbers were reducing rapidly before the introduction of the vaccine).
On the other hand, when i was growing up in the 70's I didn't know anyone with allergies, or asthma, or no one close with cancer, yet today I do.
I think you have a good point as others have also commented, that the number of vaccines and the age at which they are administered are critical.
Nov 10 2012: Roberto
I was a kid in the 70s too. When I was growing up, I did not live in air conditioning. Nobody I knew lived in air conditioning. In the 70's there was not as much air conditioning and housing was not hermetically sealed as it is today to be energy efficient. You can actually do the stats and see a high correlation between air conditioning and asthma.
Many allergy and asthma can be traced to specific triggers (cats and cockroaches etc). There are also beginning studies looking at hookworm infection and asthma. This study found no significant difference between hookworm properties and placebo for asthma but it showed enough improvement to warrant further study with an actual hookworm infestation.
So it may be that asthma was a defense that was necessary before sanitation and refrigeration. Some type of genetic latent ability that benefited our ancestors that has recently been triggered by the drastic change in our living environment over the past century. But there is no proof yet. So it is just speculation at this point. The theory if you will, to sell magazines.
Ben Jarvis
Nov 10 2012: ok i read it again. you use the fact that pharmaceutical companies produce fake journals as an argument against vaccines. the 2 things aren't related. just because fake journals exist doesn't mean that vaccines (which have plenty of supporting evidence on non-fake journals) should be called into question. it's as silly as the "hitler did it" argument.
- +2
people making uniformed, ill-conceived decisions against learned expert advice endangers the lives and well-being of those children (a second party, the child doesn't make the decision), is akin to endangering another driver's life (also a second party) by driving on the wrong side of the road, yes.
perhaps i did misunderstand your third point. you mentioned vitamin cartels. in my mind setting up cartels is a very dishonest thing to do - i was agreeing with you. your flawed logic is in that just because pharmaceuticals have set up vitamin cartels, that doesn't mean that vaccines are not a noble goal.
i agree with you in that pharmaceutical companies are profit-mongers and not to be trusted. that's another reason we should support vaccines, because that'll hurt their profits by preventing disease, making many treatment-based medicines unnecessary.Nov 9 2012: The debate is between ignorance and knowledge. But not a real debate. Of course vaccines work. That's a scientifically backed up fact. Anything against it is ignorant and/or sensationalist propaganda.
Germ theory disproven? What kind of idiotic ignorance is that? Sorry, I have no patience for such stupidity.
Comment deleted
Nov 10 2012: Yes, anything saying that vaccines don't work is ignorant and/or sensationalist. You might have specific examples of specific problems with delivery, and/or with newly and/or wrongly developed vaccines (in these situations, as soon as I start investigating I find a trail of misinformation, but I will not go there this time). That does not justify a blanket generalization against vaccines. Sensationalism is based on the faulty logic that your answer exemplifies: hasty generalizations (dangerous ones at that).
This would truly be a debate if it was about "what is the proper delivery of vaccines?" or "can we fight all diseases with vaccines?" But challenging the vaccine concept itself is ignorant/sensationalist nonsense.
Nov 10 2012: Well said. I concur.
My question is misinterpreted. Vaccines do work. But in doing so, are they making more damage than good in the long term?
It seems they are interfering with the immune system and therefore setting us up for more dis-ease in the long term. That will only increase the number of vaccines needed (3xmore today than 20 years ago) further ruining our system.
Here are medical doctors discussing the different points of view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMrFV2rnHloNov 10 2012: Theodore,
And that question comes from sensationalist press. It clearly attacks vaccines generally. The "debate" is not a scientific one. The guy who "found" a link between autism and a vaccine has been demonstrated wrong and there is strong suspicion that he falsified data. But let's leave that aside, let's see if you can pay attention now: don't get into hasty generalizations. Study the right issue (was that truly a link between autism and vaccine X? have scientists looked at the data?).
I have little patience on these issues for good reason, and I don't give one bit if you find my tone arrogant or condescending. It is dangerous to spread the kind of misinformation that you so ignorantly accept. Dangerous. So spare me your hurt feelings. There's more at stake here than your self-esteem.
Comment deletedNov 10 2012: AS for the germ theory, it has been disproven SCIENTIFICALLY. Do any research on 'Masha and Dasha'.
GERMS DO EXIST. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH THEY ARE..i.e. how healthy is the body?
And if vaccination protects us from the few viruses yet hinders our immune system, then they are in the long run false.
Nov 10 2012: No it hasn't. How healthy is the body can help avoid some germs or not have as hard a time against some infections. That does not mean that a healthy body will help avoid any germs. Thinking that it would is like thinking that because some people can fool a tiger therefore tigers are inoffensive and it is just our health that allows tigers to eat us.
Nov 10 2012: If I understand you correctly, there are some germs our body can not tackle, correct?
OK, I agree.
Are vaccinations the only option then? If they interfere with our immune system, and cause it to be weaker, then their method or formula has to be questioned.
The fact is, there are cases that people go to the doctor with their kid and within hours or days the child develops symptoms of autism (or other neurological based diseases). They have lost the child for life in may cases, yet no responsibility/accountablity or research is done.
there is not research to show that today taking 3x the number of vaccines than 20 years ago, AS A LONG TERM COMBINATION, as no effect on us. In fact, it seems to be very detrimental.
And there are doctors who do not vaccinate their own kids... what do they know that we don't?Nov 10 2012: Against viruses vaccines are either the only option or the best so far.
No they don't compromise our immune systems.
I suggest that you should not just go with the flow of misinformation.
Doctors who don't vaccinate their kids are either misinformed or idiots.
Here a rather long but useful video:
and another:
Nov 11 2012: Thank you.
It's not exactly research.
My point is.. as I have written before.. do vaccines impair our system in any way? I.e. are they doing more harm in the long run, or even safe? Ok they work... but what studies have been done with the combination of vaccines and why so early in life?
So I had a look at the CDC web site (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm) and looked at the contents of vaccines (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf)
I picked a common one: Hep B.. just 3 simple ingredients: aluminum hydroxide, yeast protein, phosphate buffers.
OK.. further research led me here:
The point being.. if test on animals show a vaccine safe for use an is approved, pilot studies done, etc.. and considered safe.. and released.. and then another one.. and so forth.. all taken alone - all well and good.
Where is the research on the combined effects? This is their responsibility.
You can chase studies, links between vaccination and autism, etc... and I have found plenty of evidence to indicate alternate results.. but I am more concerned with health, and protecting health.
I know from experience that heavy metals adversely effects health. Consider our lifestyles and pollution levels.. what is the critical point? The issue with vaccines is that it bypasses our immune system / defense system, and cannot be eliminated.Nov 8 2012: Keep in mind the concept of vaccination and early vaccines like smallpox pre-date the existence of "BIG PHARMA". Jenner wasn't looking to make money he was investigating why milk maids didn't get smallpox.
Nov 9 2012: True, but that was then, and we lived in a much more unhygienic environment then. The Black Death is a great example of this - it was not controlled or eliminated using vaccines, but rather changes in hygiene control.
I think the idea of vaccination held some truth in its time, but that in today's environment it holds little validity. In fact, it seems to be doing more harm than good.
Nov 11 2012: I have an uncle Brian who is only four foot eleven inches tall because he caught Polio in the early fifties when there was an outbreak in Australia. Today the only polio cases in Australia are in recent arrivals. This disease was erradicated by government sponsored vaccination programs in the 50s and 60s that continue to this day. I really don't think hygiene standards have changed since then.Nov 15 2012: About what, Linda? The inconsistencies of scientific research? I´ll keep doing what I´ve been doing up to now: taking a leap of faith and trusting the experts when I see fit and looking for alternatives when I don´t.
And anyway, a top scientist--sorry, I can´t remember who--said once that we only know about 10% of reality. So, if that is true, then scientific research is like making a person who was born blind differentiate colours.
Science is a very small account of a very small portion of reality. By that I don´t mean it´s worthless at all. I think it should be taken off its pedestal, though.
If that was not your question, or if it was a rhetoric one, then forget all of the above stuff.
Anyway, the important question for you should be: what am I going to do about it?
Nov 15 2012: Please see the link I posted below. As far as I can tell there is no inconsistancy in the science in this area, just dozens of independant studies that al show no serious side effects from existing vaccines.
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456.fullNov 12 2012: Roberto, I believe that your contributions are excellent. And I completely understand what you mean.
I think I read on this site someone saying something along these lines: I understood the importance of science at school, but whenever I would finish a science lesson, the only thing I got was a sort of reward for having solved this or that problem. When I left a humanities lesson, I would feel inspired to think, I wondered about loads of things, my imagination would begin to work and stretch...
That above expresses something that happens for real: the study of science, I would venture to say especially maths, kind of narrows the intellect; whereas the arts and humanities kind of expand it. Now, if you happen to be an "expanded" or rather ""expanding" thinker, you´re gonna find it difficult to be understood by a "narrower" or "narrowing" thinker. Such is the state of education nowadays where everything has been separated from all things human.
I´m not implying that one itype of thinking is good and the other is bad or the other way round. I´m implying that arts and humanities are extremely important to our human nature, one that we seem to be forgetting more and more everyday; one that people in the Renaissance, centuries ago, had very clear in their minds. So, have we really evolved, despite all our technological development? I sincerely doub it. Sorry, I´m ranting and derailing this conversation. My mind is over-expanded... (laughs)
Anyway, I´ve always found that the most eminent experts are usually the most humble and the most open to new ideas.
Linda Taylor
Nov 13 2012: You bring up a good point. People will gravitate to what fits with their personality. That is why, no matter how strong the evidence, some people will just not believe it. It does not fit in their world view.
- +3
It's too bad you don't understand how mind-blowing science is. It says a lot that you think it narrows the intellect. It is actually very exciting and creative. To create new knowledge is what science is all about. It is that creation that is so exciting, as exciting as creating new music or new art. Only less subjective. And scientists get to share it with other people too :)
Personally, if I ever have to sit through another damn history class I will pull my hair out.
Oh by the way, if anyone calls themselves an expert, they aren't. I don't think you need to rebel against experts. Just take the new information and integrate it with a grain of salt.
It's usually not the experts that are to blame for the state of the earth but the financial backers. Like the decision to make buses run on gasoline instead of electricity.
Nov 13 2012: Dear Rita and Linda,
I so appreciate the fresh air of ideas you have joined in with!
I think we are all so different and that expansion for one may be contraction for the other, as it seems to indicate above! That is beautiful!
How about the combination of science and art?
Would you say cooking is an art? Or a science?
I invite you both to enjoy this video below:
Nov 13 2012: Why, of course! Science and arts and ethics and the rest of the lot :)
If I dared answer your next two questions I´d be dangerously entering the world of definitions. I´ve raved enough for one day!
Thanks for your kind comments.Nov 14 2012: LOL Science IS art and research is its medium.
It is how you wield the medium that creates the art.
Just like paint is paint until applied to canvas.
(Rita - an expert is just paint, a researcher is just paint, a journal article is just paint - get it?)
Some of it is very very good, and some of it very very bad, but all of it contributes to new understanding of the world.Nov 14 2012: By the same token, I assume that you also believe that art IS a science and experimenting and breaking rules is its medium.
Sure, in your definitions of things, only a few scientists perform art, just like I assume you believe that only a few artists perform science.
They say maths and poetry are closely link together, and so is music.Nov 14 2012: Of course art is science. There is a lot of technical requirements for any art medium (shame, I know how much you are against technology). You don't just walk up to a piano and bang on the keys. Art requires science just as science requires art.
And doesn't experimenting belong with science?Nov 13 2012: Oh, no no no, it´s very easy to put the blame for what happens on someone else. I guess that some experts have made the gasoline buses possible, haven't they? We have our little bit of responsibility on everything that happens. If I work for a company that restores accidents in factories and the like, and one day I have to go and fix an armament plant, in a way I´m contributing to the use of armaments in this world. I know someone, a person that studied a science degree, who refused to do so, risking his job. I deeply admire him for that reason.
My point isn´t "let´s not do science because it´s very concrete—it is, sorry—, and let´s only do humanities, because they make you think about everything—they do, sorry—. My point is we can´t continue to think that humanities are folklore, because they are not. They make us see different things. As you pointed out, we can only see, what we are prepared to see. Well then, if we only give importance to one type of knowledge, we´re missing out on a big chunk of reality and of humanity. We´re missing out on a way of looking at things from different angles. I remember hearing a top engineer say that her take on engineering was different from other colleagues of hers, because when she finished her degree, she decided to travel the world and learn about other stuff (folklore!). Apparently she was one of the best in her field of expertise.
I know for a fact that not all the people who work in scientific fields are able to think beyond the test tube in front of their eyes. But I have to give you that the greatest scientists have ended up being somewhat philosophers. I´ll keep with my rant down below.
Nov 14 2012: "I know for a fact that not all the people who work in scientific fields are able to think beyond the test tube in front of their eyes. " There is a big difference between a scientist and a researcher. You are describing a researcher. As you have pointed out, research is a big part of science but a true scientist is more than a test tube starer.
Science is only concrete at implementation. I know you probably don't understand that but it is true. Before that it is almost completely theoretical. An artform if you will. That is where the creation part comes in.
Humanities are boring and dull. Who cares who did what to whom and when and what arose from it. There is no practical application to any of it outside it's own little world and little thinkers. Ever try and get a job with a humanities degree? Yeah, unless you plan on teaching it as a career, good luck cause none of it matters. And heaven forbid you talk about some type of phenomena without someone else taking credit for having discovered it, or written it, or thought it first.
And engineers don't think at all. They measure stuff. One engineer friend of mine said there are people who think the glass is half empty, and people who think the glass is half full. An engineer thinks the glass is the wrong size. (OK I admit this is tounge in cheek so please all you wonderful engineers and humanities people forgive the exaggeration)Nov 13 2012: I would say that the sciences are just as important and involve just as much creativity as the humanities. Maybe it's just not your thing.
Nov 13 2012: So some scientists actually come out of their field of expertise and realise that reality is not only that particular thing that they study, but a whole, so their discoveries have taken them to think about ethics, philosophy, education…life!!! I must also admit that not all the experts on humanities are able to think outside their boxes, and I know I´m contradicting myself here, but what can we expect from our education systems? I understand perfectly you getting bored in history lessons. I did too. My teachers were as bad as I guess yours are. So after all ,perhaps the ones that up to now have been able to go beyond whatever it is that they studied did so out of personal abilities…
As Linda pointed out, we "see" only what we are prepared to see. That´s why it is so essential to give an immense importance to the teaching—proper teaching—of arts and humanities in childhood and adolescence. But perhaps the powers that be are only interested in us seeing one side of reality to make us more productive… Sad. Do you think that George Orwell was subjective? Well, bring it on then. What´s wrong with subjectivity anyway? Do you think that objectivity is everything? Science is a very partial, limited take on reality. Newton said one thing, and years later along came Einstein to mess things up, and now some scientists claim that the universe is just "information"...And then again if we take into account what Ben Goldacre at TED says that some of you guys share, then what type of science are you talking about? It´s not only partial but biased. Besides iIn science you guys know some of the whats, wheres, how of a teeny tiny portion of realit,.. but many a time don´t know a tad about the whys. Partial, limited.
But of course you can be creative within science, I never said otherwise. And I´m positive it is mind-blowing. And yes, Tyler, science could have been my thing, I loved maths and physics, but not as much as other stuff.
Nov 14 2012: Once again, research is biased but science is not. Do not confuse the two. If you don't do the theoretical creative stuff you will result in biased research. That is the core of the problem. That and MONEY of course. Because money cares not for the science but only the results.
And really, sometimes I think we only see what money tells us to see. Money even trumps ethics.Nov 12 2012: Can we please put the autism thing to bed? There has not been one study that showed a correlation between vaccines and autism. Autism rates have increased in the time since vaccines became in common use, but the studies that have been done show the same increase in autism rates amongst those that aren't vaccinated.
Nov 12 2012: Thank you Peter. Can you provide the source of information.
I would not state that there is a correlation between the two, but I would also not state that vaccines have been properly tested and that are safe.
To my knowledge, there have been no studies with the combined effects of all the vaccines. Single studies are fine, even if they show safe.. but what are the combined effects?
The vaccine show promise in defending us for a certain viruses, but what are the side effects? Does it do damage at the same time? If so then this too need to be looked at.
Chemotherapy works sometimes too, but the effects are devastating.
Thanks for the feedback
Nov 12 2012: Roberto,
The effects of chemotherapy USED to be devastating, and if you do some research, you may discover that there are many new chemotherapy drugs, and drugs to deal with side effects. The chemotherapy mixtures used today are pretty advanced and have many different applications.
Unfortunately, my "research" started from practical application. In the past year, I have been involved with the care of 2 relatives who are on chemotherapy maintenance programs, and they are functioning pretty well in spite of serious cancer.
While accompanying my brother to chemotherapy sessions, we often talked with many people in the waiting room who are having similar results with chemotherapy. To make the statement that the effects of chemotherapy are devastating, suggests that any information you have may not be current.
One of your statements regarding vaccines, is based on information you have from the 1900s?
You state..." But, as far as I can tell, the germ theory was debated in early 1900's and disproved in the 1950's, therefore voiding all need for fighting 'bugs'."
Using outdated information for any argument doesn't make much sense....does it?
Nov 12 2012: Thank you Colleen.
Firstly I wish your relatives well and hope it all works out; I lost my brother to liver cell carcinoma in 2003.
Regarding chemo, different individuals have different doses for different types of cancers and their state of health.
I will refer to the National Cancer institute link, for a list of side effects:
These possible side effects side effects do not indicate a therapy that is 'safe' even though it may be the best available. I hope anyone undergoing chemo does not have any side effects, but in order to have these reactions, there is some serious chemicals being introduced into the body.
Body chemistry is a very complex, and in many cases, unknown territory. To me it does not make sense to introduce a hazardous liquid into a body, and expect only one part of the body to be affected. And this does not include post chemo effects - what is the state of the body after chemo?
For some, chemo is the best solution as I hope it is for your relatives, and would I would not argue with you over it. I respect people's decisions and only am curious to a more broader view rather than case view.
Regarding the 1900's: This is about the germ theory, first found in 1500's and later developed in the 1700's (smallpox) and 1800's (Pasteur).
What I am hoping to have this audience understand is a paradigm shift. Many drugs and therapies (including alternative therapy) are made to tackle a bug or ailment. In the 1930's for 50 years following, tests were made on Russian conjoined twins (at hip) who shared a common blood stream. The same virus would circulate throughout their bodies, yet one would get sick and the other would not. It did not depend on the bug, but on the health of the body. (research Masha and Dasha - it is fascinating!).
This brings me back to my initial question: do vaccines do more harm than good? Do they protect us from one virus, yet reduce the immune system?Nov 12 2012: Roberto,
I am sorry about the loss of your brother.
Regarding chemo: I agree with your statement..."different individuals have different doses for different types of cancers and their state of health",
Please read my comment, in which I state..."The chemotherapy mixtures used today are pretty advanced and have many different applications". I think we're saying the same thing, so you don't need to lecture me on that one....thanks....I've done quite a bit of research on the topic, and am aware of the many possible side effects.
I agree that with chemo there are "some serious chemicals being introduced into the body", which is exactly why it is used to treat and/or manage cancer. It's ok if you choose not to introduce chemo into your body...hopefully, you will never have to make that decision. I don't know what my decision might be either, and I will weigh all relevant information if that ever occurs.
It is very difficult to get a "more broader view", if you fail to look at case reviews...is it not? You don't seem to want to have a discussion, as much as you want to "have this audience understand" your own perspective.
I have read all the comments, including the ones that are now deleted. You continue to bring up outdated information, and in my humble opinion, outdated information does not support your agenda.
OF COURSE the health of one's body impacts outcomes Roberto....that is not a secret!!!
You are "hoping to have this audience understand" YOUR perspective, and so far, that is not happening, because evidence tells us something different. Your introduction says that you are open to all sides of the story, and that does not appear to be true.
Nov 12 2012: Dear Colleen,
I don't understand your 'outdated' issue. Please explain.
I think you are reading my message and taking it on the wrong way.
I am looking at health and what interferes with it. I have to consider environment, psychology, habits, history, studies, etc. You want to look at case reviews pertaining to a single factor, in this case chemo. We are just looking differently and that is ok.
I am not trying to 'lecture you on that one' or anything else. Sorry if it became personal, as it is not meant to be.Nov 12 2012: Roberto,
I do not have an "outdated issue". YOU are the one who offered information regarding experiments and case studies from 1900, 1930, & 1950. This is 2012, and there are certainly studies and research that have been done since the 1900s. That might mean that information learned in the 1900s may be considered "outdated".
I think I am "reading and taking your message" as it is meant.
I am also looking at health, what interferes with it, considering environment, psychology, habits, history, studies, etc.
YOU brought up the topic of chemotherapy with your statement:
"Chemotherapy works sometimes too, but the effects are devastating".
I simply addressed your statement.
You accuse me of wanting to look at case reviews pertaining to a single factor, and YOU offer for consideration, a test done "In the 1930's... on Russian conjoined twins (at hip) who shared a common blood stream."
Do you not see your contradictions?
Nov 13 2012: Thank you Colleen - I see where I am misunderstood.
What is developed today is based on our belief of how we understand how things are. If we believe we have to fight the bug (germ theory), then we develop drugs/therapies/etc around that core belief. If we believe that we have to enhance the body's ability to fight the bug, then we will take a different drugs/therapies/etc.
The question would be if the basis of pharmacology is to reduce a symptom, attack a bug, release/suppress a chemical, and in doing so, interfering with the body's ability to function on every level (chemical, biological, bio-energetic/metabolic/etc), with foundations on the 'old' theory, without taking into consideration the effect (long term / combination) on the body.
If we are to approach health from the viewpoint of removing the pollution/interference etc from the body so that the body would be at its best to perform against the outside environment, then again we follow a different route. That is the basis of the 'newer' paradigm toward healthcare, the 1950's.
I hope this provides clarity.Nov 13 2012: Here is a link to an analysis of several investigations into a link between autism and vaccination http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456.full
It's from 2009 and has about 40 references at the bottom of the page. It seems pretty conclusive.
Nov 13 2012: Thank you Peter.
I am not convinced that they are the sole cause of autism.. by far. I am also not convinced that that are 100% safe either.
I believe they are safer from 1999 onwards.
There are however contributing factors that if not found, may predispose a child to autism.
And certain vaccines containing aluminium I would not consider a safe design, just due to the fact that it is aluminium.
Thank you for the reference, I appreciate it!Nov 13 2012: Dear Roberto,
I do not think/feel that you are misunderstood. I personally am not misunderstanding you.
As you state in a previous comment..."What is developed today is based on our belief of how we understand how things are. If we believe we have to fight the bug (germ theory), then we develop drugs/therapies/etc around that core belief. If we believe that we have to enhance the body's ability to fight the bug, then we will take a different drugs/therapies/etc."
You seem to make this an either/or decision...."fight the bug" with "drugs/therapies/etc." OR "enhance the body's ability to fight the bugs". In my humble perception, it is beneficial to use everything available for good health, and research indicates this to be a beneficial practice.
My children were vaccinated, because with the information available 40+ years ago, it was the best decision in my perception. I was vaccinated for childhood diseases 60+ years ago, and in fact, because of my travels, I have been vaccinated for yellow fever, cholera, typhoid, hepatitis, at least two different strains of polio, etc. etc. There are many places in our world where these diseases are still very common, and for me to ignore the information available regarding these diseases and the benefits of vaccinations, could be a death sentance.
We are seeing an emergence of measles and pertussis in the USA because some folks do not believe in vaccinations, and prefer to count on the body to "fight the bugs". Is it working? Not always.
We all need to investigate, and use current, relevant information appropriately. Those who believe all vaccinations compromise the systems of the body, are not looking at ALL information. I strongly believe in a holistic approach, which includes using everything available to support the mind and body systems:>)
I hope this provides clarity:>)Nov 11 2012: OK everyone, I appreciate the feedback, contrast, and points of view.
As I initiated this discussion, I am also responsible and therefore I will also like to add that during this debate, some feel they have a right to criticize and belittle others in the debate.
Please keep it clean. I.e. If you have nothing to say that will assist the other party to understand, then stay off the channel.
I am open to hearing both sides and listening to both as well and learning, as that is the original idea. I am also hoping that we all take something +ve away from this.
Otherwise, I appreciate everybody's feedback and please keep it coming!Nov 11 2012: Your comment sounds slightly patronizing, Fritzie, or perhaps I´m having a bad hair day...I didn´t understand anything remotedly related to the press--I don´t know where you got that idea from? What did you understand, anyway?--In my opinion, Noreena talks primarily about using OUR brain and question everything experts say. I think that Roberto Sciffo is doing exactly that. I guess that those who like living in certainties and putting reality into small boxes don´t like that at all; but societies have evolved precisely because some people, some experts included, were bold enough and have the sufficient amount of personality to question what they were taught. Trouble is that the technological evolution hasn´t come hand in hand with the development of individuals as complete HUMAN beings. Of course we need experts, but we need to be able to question them, just as much as they must be able to question themselves and us allowing them to do so. And yes, most experts are unethical; but perhaps I´ve been unfair, and I should have said that most of us are unethical: we are using the product of their expertise without questioning it. That´s the reason why the Earth is in such a miserable state, for instance. That is why Noreena challenges us to think, to rebel against experts. I wonder what would have happened if the moment we knew that fossil fuels were so polluting and harmful for the environment and for ourselves, those experts had refused to keep developing ways of finding more oil digs, and what would have happened if the public in general had refused to use them as they were clearly unhealthy. What, if all that effort had been invested in improving humanity.
Noreena just expresses what has always been on my mind: we have to doubt/question everything; which is a scary thought for many people; don´t know why.
I´ve questioned myself about the use of vaccines in the past, and decided to use them, weighing pros and cons. I hope people keep doing so, experts included.
Nov 11 2012: Thank you Rita.
The question proposed was not mean to be taken personally or to be against the 'medical institution' or any other way. It is simply to find out if anyone has investigated the use of vaccines, especially as a combination, and weather they are doing more harm or not.
Many points of view have developed from the question, and I have learned much more, as I hope we all have.
It is healthy to question, for that is how we develop as humans... from early on in years of life as well as a society, and as humankind.Nov 11 2012: I am sorry Rita, but if you are going to call me unethical I am going to call you silly. What about it? Also, you must have expertise on something. Are you unethical about it? Do you teach about English wrongly just for the fun of it? After all, you must be unethical, since you are an expert.
I agree that people have to question the experts. But they have to be willing to study very carefully before doing so. Otherwise their questioning is meaningless, and can also be, as is the case with anti-vaxers, stupidly dangerous. Following sensationalist press won't cut it. Would you agree to that much?
Nov 12 2012: Engaging on an argument online is the last thing on my mind, so if you want to believe I´m silly, that´s totally up to you. And if you have decided yourself that you´re one of those unethical experts, I´m not going to try to convice you otherwise. But I never called you anything, did I?Since you want to get so personal, I´ll tell you that first of all, I don´t consider myself to be an expert on anything, and second I try to be as ethical as possible, I gave up a job because my ethics when it comes to teaching are quite revolutionary for the country were I live (I love Ken Robinson, to give you an idea). I´m constantly thinking of ways in which I can improve my work and I always question what I do; and of course I take into account the student´s feedback, not necessarily their verbal contributions. Now, boring children to death, in my country, and making them hate subjects like science, because it´s only taught theoretically and schematically, is a silent crime, to say the least. Breaking up the atom without being able to control the results, having to leave waste that will be our present for the next 2000 generations, and putting our lives and health at risk, should any uncontrollable event happen (and uncontrollable events happen all the time) and without them happening at all, is more tanglibly dangerous.And nope, you don´t necessarily have to study loads to question the experts on a daily basis. The most obvious example is medicine, of course. Doctors may know a lot about anatomy and so on, but no-one knows my body better than I do, after all I´ve been in it 24/7; no doctor has. I could give you examples where I have trust my instincts and my intelligence and not the experts, and you´d be amazed. But of course I trust experts, but when I believe I have to. And, please, don´t talk about the press like it´s the ultimate source of information. They are biased and manipulative. When I really want to dig deep on something I read serious reseach.Then I trust it, or notNov 13 2012: No, I was only seeking clarification. As your comment to which I responded was only one line that said simply that some people should listen to Noreen's TED talk, and was not seemingly a reply to anyone specifically, (though perhaps to Entropy Driven for before you using the phrase "some people"), I wanted to find out further what lesson you had drawn from the talk.
Sometimes one sentence replies can be difficult to interpret as they stand.Nov 13 2012: Rita,
You are saying that most experts are unethical. That means that you think that the probability that I am unethical must be high. After all, I am an expert on something. No way around. I know lots of experts on lots of subjects, and a few are unethical at times (not constantly, though I'd prefer if they never were). So, my experience is that most experts are ethical.
To question experts without knowledge is to make a fool of yourself. It is false that you know your body better than anybody. It's like saying that because you are in it you know of every biochemical reaction going on in it. Not possible. So save the rhetoric.
Kudos for being a revolutionary educator. I try to be so too. Forcing students to think has been quite rewarding, though it's hard to make it work well for everybody. So, we have that in common. I know of many more educators who are trying very hard despite workloads that leave little time to plan for such revolutionary methods. We still try.
Anyway, that's not the issue. My issue with you (and with Roberto) is the easy way in which you declare that most experts are something you don't truly know. The faulty logic of calling most experts unethical. The problem that such thing might lead to lots of children dying of preventable diseases. That's my issue.
I never said that the press was reliable.
Nov 13 2012: First of all, I didn´t know if you were an expert or not. You say you are, then, ok. Second, you might or might not be ethical., I still don´t know. And third, when I talk about experts I mean almost anybody with a good knowledge of a particular skill. If you are a sales rep and work for a multinational firm that asks you to sell formula as a betrer option for feeding a baby than breast milk, you´re being unethical...if you´re a model and you make commercials about rubbish food you´re being unethical, if you work with children and don´t question your ways, you´re being unethical, or perhaps just plainly ignorant. Scientists are unethical, or perhaps just don´t take ethics into account (well, I guess it´s the same thing). Not all of them are of course. I once met top scientist that developed lots of stuff for the army, the US army. Sorry, for me working in an industry whose aim is to kill people is unethical. Perhaps my definition of unethical is different from yours. Erm...My body is not only my body, it´s also my psychology which affects my biochemical reactions. I´ve never ever met one single doctor that worried about my feelings, my way of thinking...in a word: my mind.. Again another proof that experts don´t ,see the whole picture. There is a saying over here that goes: there are no illnesses, there are ill people. Medicine only treats flesh, in my opinion. What´s more, doctors don´t know, by any stretch of the imagination, all the biochemical reactions that go on on any body. Otherwise medicines would be just perfect and would cure absolutely every known disease. So, no rethoric whatsoever.
I´m not saying I never trust doctors, I´m saying that I follow their advice when I see fit. It takes courage and thinking though, it´s not easy.
I´m human and as such, I make loads of mistakes; I admit it. Doctors and the rest of experts aren´t perfect either, so I keep my eyes open when it comes to someone else coming in contact with my body and my family´s. No


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Volkswagen reveals CrossBlue concept
Six-seat SUV with 300bhp only for the States. Americans, are you ready?
Posted: 14 Jan 2013
Volkswagen has taken the opportunity of the Detroit Motor Show to showcase an American-only concept: it's the CrossBlue SUV.
Weighing in at around the same size as an Audi Q7 - and thus, huge - Volkswagen reckons that should this ever make production, it will slot in between the Tiguan and the Touareg in VW's SUV line-up.
Underneath the Tonka-truck exterior sits a diesel-electric hybrid setup mated to a DSG gearbox and four-wheel-drive, strapped to the VW Group's new MQB platform (the same platform underpinning 10 million VW group products). So you're looking at a 187bhp TDI engine with 295lb ft of torque, together with a lithium-ion battery pack - laying across the central tunnel - powering one electric motor on the front axle and one on the rear axle.
Altogether, the CrossBlue's drivetrain - much like the Cross Coupe concept shown at last year's Detroit show - produces 300bhp and a not inconsiderable 516lb ft of torque. 0-60mph is quoted as seven seconds, while the top speed is 127mph (or 75mph if running in electric-only mode).
And here's the crux: thanks to that diesel engine and electric setup, the CrossBlue is capable of returning 134.5mpg. That's frugal. Inside, there are three rows of two seats, though production versions would have a three-seater bench on the second row to turn it into a proper seven-seater. There's loads of head and legroom, a 335-litre boot (815 litres with the third row folded), aluminium surrounds inside and "dark-stained banana tree wood accents". Handy if you ever get peckish on the move...
US Volkswagen CEO Jonathan Browning reckons the CrossBlue "is exactly the right type of vehicle for the US market." Americans, do you agree?


text:
Kingmaker: We're back and none other than the beast Grind Bastard is gracing us with his presence.
Kingmaker: Man up, Bob!
*People boo Grind, who runs down the ramp and enters the ring. He is carrying the vintage bat with him. He stays in the middle of the ring for some seconds before leaving it, going to the commentary table. He gives Daniels a cold dead look and the veteran play by play commentator is turning white. Grind then mouths "Boo" and Daniels flinches. Grind gives Bob his wolfish smile, and returns to the ring with the fans booing even more. He then takes his index finger to the mouth and demands silence. Second after second, the noise goes out. Grind then points to the Titantron with the bat. Lights are out, and the usual baroque music booms throughout the arena.*
*The video depicts Grind sitting at the usual table, illuminated by a candelabra with black candles. Grind is using the same feather quill and red ink than the first time. He is concentrated in his scribbling, and not paying attention to the camera. When he is finished, he gets up, grabs the cameraman and forces him to show what it is written.*
Originally Posted by Written Grind
Daniels: I hope Raden accepts this!
Kingmaker: Knowing the man a little bit, he will.
*Raden is carried out on a demonic looking throne carried by minions of his covenant*
Blaine: Foolish man, you are looking to meet the unholy father are you not? I accept your challenge. I will very much enjoy painting the ring with your blood. Once I win..
*Crowd boos*
Blaine: Oh fuck off you sinful bastards! As I was saying, Once I win and I will win, I shall give you the chance to beg me for mercy. And while you are pleading with me to spare your worthless soul I shall send you into a deep coma where you soul will be judge by The Dark Prince. I would have your will written out Bastard because chances are after our match, Your soul will burn in hell and you'll be buried six feet under.
*Grind is smiling when Blaine accepts the challenge. He then lifts the bat, gives a roar, slides out of the ring and charges. However, security was ready for this and runs to stop the masked beast. Others try to refrain Blaine. After a bit of back and forth, security manages to achive their purpose.*
Daniels: And there it is! Grind Bastard vs. Raden Blaine inside the Punjabi Prison at Bred for Combat!! A hellacious structure for two hellacious wrestlers.
Kingmaker: You've gotta love this, dawg!
Daniels: Indeed, Booker, indeed.
*Kingmaker stares at Daniels, who is laughing.*