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If God is omniscient is free will an illusion?
I'm agnostic but interested in the truth so I do a lot of thinking and research on philosophy and religious issues in order to keep an open mind. It occurred to me when I was thinking one day that if God exists and he already knows everything I'm ever going to do then every decision I'm ever going to make has effectively already been made. This would mean that there is no such thing as free will. Since free will is a necessary ingredient for sin to be meaningful this has some pretty astounding implications. Thoughts?
Don Anderson
Feb 1 2013: I believe a lot of religions have some facts wrong, but that does mean we should assume that they have all their facts are wrong.
- +4
If god is omniscient that does not mean god based religions are also omniscient.
Note that they say god is all-knowing and not all controlling, so it's like that you know the sun will rise in the morning and that does not mean you have control of the sun rising.
I had/have a life changing health-issue and even though god knew I would get it and placed events in my path that prepared me for it, I believe it was my own free will that decided how it affected me.
Many with my health issue got stuck in thinking "Why me!", but I had the free will to ask "Why me? to and grow spiritually"
Rather or not god knew I would spend years looking inward and thinking about the meaning of life, I don't know.
And really that does not matter, I'm going to live my life and take paths in it as I will.
And if god already knows, that does not change things.
Feb 1 2013: Cool reply. I've had similar experience.Feb 2 2013: There is an intrinsic problem with this question : when you say God , be sure everyone hears something different.
In my understanding ( standing under ), God is almighty, because it doesn't exercise any power and omniscient not because IT knows everything , but because IT is everytning.
God doesn't have Free will. We do , it's a kind of limitation, free will bears the quality of a code, everything which IS does ; we have to choose to create this reality and we are determined to fallow the rules this reality dictates.
"... if God exists and he already knows everything I'm ever going to do..."
God is not watching you , God is you, experiencing itself through you, unfolding in everything else.
Something like this ... :)
Gail .
Feb 2 2013: Everything that IS, DOES. I like that. God is "being". God is not "a" being.Feb 2 2013: It is contradictory for a God to be 'everything' but to have no 'free will', as this either separates 'us' from God and the deity from 'everything', or we get included, and the deity its 'free will'...
- +1
Either way I turn it, my logic-module is not getting it... any help? :o)
Or is this 'everything' in this context to be seen like infinity, of which its half still stays infinite even though it just lost an infinite portion? If so, we definitely get know 'our' place then ... :o)
Feb 2 2013: Maybe God doesn't care for logic ? :)
Let's put it like this : God doesn't HAVE Free will, God IS Free will.
Is it any better ?
".. we definitely get know 'our' place then "
I don't, can you help ?
Feb 3 2013: I could have helped before I read your second comment and your explanation. But now I know I would have been wrong... ;o)
So my best guess is somewhere in between 0 and 1 and this because we just don't know if the 'creation' has already finished ... :o)Feb 2 2013: Or, let me try to language God- Free Will relationship, i am doomed to fail...let me fail :)
God is absolute, non dual hence not existing in usual/logical sense . The mathematical expression of God is 0, IT becomes 1 at/with creation. Creation comes with Time ( not in Time ) and here the show begins. Time lasts and in a way it's two with God for God is eternal. Eternity has no duration at all. " Time is moving image of Eternity" ( Plato )
Creation is God's image that lasts.
Lasting means change, Time generates space where change occurs. Moving in Time through space the flow is broken into 2 possibilities A and B, and here free will enters to the picture to choose A or B. The chosen A (or B) again splits into two possibilities and so it goes on and on ad infinitum.
Does God choose ? No, for God A is B, the end occupies exactly the same place where the beginning is, it is ITS image that chooses and must have free will to do so. Image has free will of its own, but it never leaves the domain of 0/God /Eternity, they are entangled like a particle and the wave that encloses it. They are One.
I have serious doubts that it helps, but i tried :)
Feb 3 2013: I think you already lost me right after the smiling emoticon, just behind your '... let me fail' comment ... ;o)
And not because you failed, it was me being quicker to do so.
If 'God is not existing in logical sense' how on earth can it then be, that its 'mathematical expression is 0'? At least before 'creation'... I do not know any other discipline than mathematics, which is rooted that deep into logic.
Also you mentioned, that God is 'non dual', yet time in a way 'two' with God... how can that be? And what about its entangled 'image' as the domain for a 'free will' to hop partially in existence in its creation? Isn't this conflicting the 'non dual' concept as well?
That's why I like emoticons. You just have to turn your head 90° counter clockwise and what you see is understandable ... :o)
Maybe that's why I like to picture 'Turtles all the way down', as my mind is capable at least to imagine the first one... :o)
In any case I thank you very much for trying, and it is not the lights fault if there is nothing to shine on ... :o)
Grace Greene
Feb 3 2013: May I "try"?
- +1
Consider the idea of 1 hour. That hour can also be seen as 2 half hours, or 3 twenty-minute periods, or 4 fifteen minute periods, or 60 one-minute periods, or 3600 one-second periods, etc.
If god is the metaphorical hour, and you are a metaphorical second, then there is no division in the ultimate sense. You ARE "one-with" god - made of the same stuff. This makes you a god. You observe an aspect of the hour, but the second is not complete without the hour and the hour is not complete without the second. The division that you see is then an illusion.
Feb 3 2013: Thank you very much, Grace, for your bravery of another try to make me understand. :o)
Actually I have no difficulty to imagine some form of a 'wholeness', in which gods, time, space, dimensions, matter, energy and everything is part of just ONE SOMETHING, even though it may not look like such from all places within it.
The problem I have is, to be certain about it.
Any averagely creative mind is capable to project several possible constructions of what it may all be about, and not all of them need to be combinable or even compatible. And this was the outcome of just one mind...
And even though I like Natasha's and your ideas, as both are trying to integrate and to generate some sense out of all, they still remain as ideas and can not be known for sure...
This is why I choose to be agnostic, as my mind isn't capable to recognize 'the truth' in between all possibilities, and this only for the case that 'the truth' was existent.
What if there is no 'wholeness' in the given context? What if there is no eternity at all and it just looks, of 'feels' this way within the limitation of our simple minds?
If it comes to this sort of topic, we seem to become quite willing to except all forms of superlatives. Unlimited time, or no time at all. Endless space, dimensions and expansions yet we aren't even capable to grasp the simple number of one million.
And what about 42.000? Can we really imagine in our minds how much that is? Not approximately, exactly, as this is really a tiny number compared to what a 'wholeness' would be.
So how comes, that from a certain digit on, our minds just dare to 'get it all'?
Somehow this stays mysterious to me about our nature. If I look at your and Natasha's explanations, I sense some incorporated concepts of modern astronomy, quantum-physics and mathematical ideas which are blended by some traditional transcendental elements.
All in all as contemporary as the Yggdrasil tree was at its time within the Nordic culture.
Just a Remix?!Feb 5 2013: Thanks Grace !
As simple as convincing !
At least, for the for the converted :)Feb 3 2013: To be everything, God would not need free will.
Feb 3 2013: What makes you certain about this? What if there is this unwritten law, that no God is allowed to be 'everything' and has to have 'free will'? Would we on earth 'feel' and difference if this law was followed strictly ever since? Or is it the 'geometrical' beauty of this 'everything' thought which is so tempting to us? And would such attractions indicate any 'truth'?
Ken brown
Feb 4 2013: logic can constrain a mind. In this case "A God" "The one God" or "the paramount God" In this conversation has led people back to adding rules to it or "God" A painter is not subject to his creations 2-d reality, he chooses to use paint and canvas and a frame to stretch it out on then starts to work on the canvas but is separate from it.
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If you were the first intelligence and their was nothing else, just blackness then nothing is impossible. We're in the bubble not on the outside, none of us here on this planet has a spherical sense of vision beyond our eye's, we can't zoom out to satellite orbits and then zoom in seeing all. Nope, I'm afraid we don't have that capability. We are the ones constrained and limited to 13.7 billion visual light years but it has been calculated to be bigger yet we will never know or could if it did get to what we think.
But i can't prove it as it is my belief.
Feb 4 2013: Thank you Ken for sharing your views.
Personally I think our minds are just one constrain in itself and incapable to ever get to know,
to understand the true meaning of what we are part of. Many people choose explanations, which suits them best, or just grow up by them and keep it.
But I can't belief, as I have doubts.Feb 4 2013: Thanks Lejan !
You didn't say " Nonsense !!!
So i may try again :)
If 'God is not existing in logical sense' how on earth can it then be, that its 'mathematical expression is 0'?
'0' is the event horizon; dual logic, rational mind can't enter there. Call it Singularity, it's the 'place' where all physical laws as we know them are inoperable.
God doesn't care for names, choose any name and IT will answer ' Yes, it's me ' :)
The God in the Bible causes a great confusion to a rational mind and maybe i know why.
The Bible tells the STORY of creation and i love this story , but as the genre demands, God is a character here, the Being. And a rational mind seeks for the proof of God's existence. Here is the trap, because in the context of existence God does not exist, ITS image does.
"God is 'non dual', yet time in a way 'two' with God... how can that be?
Try ' non dual ' logic :)
You may google it, it shows how, by starting in unity we make imaginary complexity and how that is related to the original unity.
Or maybe you would like to ponder this " Time is the theatre of God's becoming "
From your comment above : But I can't belief, as I have doubts.
If you have no doubts, you are dead ...or God :)
Feb 5 2013: You seem to believe what you are patiently trying to explain to me, the in-convertible, which takes the 'non' from your 'sense' to me.
But as usual, the candy jar sits always safely on the highest shelf and out of reach of the arms of the little ones. For similar reasons we choose this place for valuable yet fragile things, so they don't break in playful and curious little hands ... ;o)
And as long as I haven't crossed the 'event horizon' yet to return 'in peace' and, more healthy, 'one piece', I have nothing to argue about your beautiful belief, so I look up to it as I do to all the other candy jars on that same shelf... :o)
There is so much candy up there in this long line of jars and no furniture in the kitchen tall enough to get me there, not even stacked, so I just move on 'playing', as the weather is nice outside... :o)
As I mentioned to Grace before, I can imagine a multitude of 'sweets' to stuff my 'jars' and there have been several 'willow trees' for me to struck me in awe..., gently of course... yet the realm of these our 'deeper insights' is a tricky one and has lead me on thin ice in several occasions before, because of which I came to name it my 'spiritual blind spots' in analogy to the ones of my vision, in which my mind also interpolates 'reality', at least my visual one.
I don't know if you have seen the incredible TED Talk of Jill Bolte, in which she describes her personal experience of what our minds are capable of:
Yet even though I was deeply touched by what I learned from her, it remained uncertain to me, if the level of personal intensity can be taken as a ladder to a higher understanding, to finally reach the highest shelf... :o)
No sweets for me, the mental lefty, I am afraid, but I haven't behaved anyway... ;o)
Thanks for trying!Feb 5 2013: But I can't belief, as I have doubts.
Nothing wrong with doubts or wanting actual proof.
Feb 5 2013: Of course not, yet not of any help either ... ;o)Feb 5 2013: Lejan, I'm not sure if this will be in the right place in this thread, but I will attempt to answer your fundamental question. How can you be sure?
You can't. No one can. But you cannot survive without a belief system. Without a belief system, you are not able to make the most basic decisions.
When you become an adult, your belief system is your CHOICE. You can change it any time you want. You can change it to whatever you can legitimately accept. You do not have to substantiate your belief about God or gods or the lack thereof unless you are trying to push your view on others, or you are trying to defame others' beliefs. Once you do either of those two things, then evidence is required. Otherwise, you can complain all you want, but without evidence, what you have to say is without merit, and your voice in the matter is meaningless.
As I moved from theist through agnostic to atheist, I had to face and resolve deep questions each step along the way. All who cross such barriers must do the same. The idea that certainty can exist seems to be an anathema to me. I don't expect certainty. But I "DO" expect evidence. And my belief system, that makes it possible for me to survive, does rest on evidence. Evidence is not proof.
There is zero evidence supporting the definition of "God" that is popular today. On the other hand, there is an abundance of evidence that supports a different way of looking at the world. Proof that there is no god ? Absolutely not! But evidence that if there is one, it bears no similarity at all to the God of Abraham is abundant. Evidence is much more potent than fear, desire, anger, frustration or uncertainty.
For me, knowing the role that "belief" plays in anyone's life, I have taken my questions deeper than you (so far). I have explored my beliefs to remove contradictions and untested assumptions. It is a journey. It took courage to start that journey.
So what "evidence" supports your candy-jar reality?
Feb 6 2013: Well-articulated, Grace.
I would only add that if one is waiting for proof, one is wasting precious time - if questions such as these are something that one finds interesting.
I agree that It is most likely that there will never be proof, but evidence =/= proof, so it matters little to me. My worldview is rooted in what I have learned - mostly but not entirely - from science.
I would also add that once these probing questions were answered to my satisfaction, life became INORDINATELY easier and more satisfying.Feb 6 2013: On the given topic I do not agree with your thesis that one 'cannot survive without a belief system', by the fact, that I keep on surviving for quite some while now in this state and feel comfortable doing so. Maybe because my questions didn't reach the depth of yours... who knows? ;o)
My 'fundamental question' is a rhetorical one, as I am aware about its answer, yet it does provoke in a certain way to get discussions started and makes people explain in more detail what their believes are, which is interesting to me.
When there is something in those explanations which I don't understand, or which doesn't seem 'coherent' to me at first reflection, I then usually ask for further detail by pointing out on what confuses me. Patience people like Natasha and you give further help and guidance in their 'beliefs' so that I may get to understand what it is about.
The 'candy-jar' metaphor is my reality to finally fail to 'follow' all the way through and its usual evidence would be me, smiling or holding my breath for some time, while searching for words to frame my capitulation... :o)
I truly hope my words didn't appear to 'push 'my' view on others' or to 'defame others' beliefs', as they weren't meant this way. On the contrary, even though provoking at times, I did come to read some very interesting details about how this 'world' can be seen.
On your 'evidence' thesis we could open another thread on its own for me to get to understand your meaning behind it, yet I assume this was pushing your patience to far... :o)
Anyway, I thank you very much for all your views and explanations, as it was interesting to see, that you and Natasha seem to have found quite similar 'explanations', or at least you seem to agree with one another on some of them. And the fact, that I am not 'following', doesn't mean, that I didn't learn anything. And what I learned from you, I thank you for it!Feb 5 2013: Thanks ,Lejan!
Your response is a pleasure to read, i've enjoyed it!
You are right , but there is one point i'd like to clarify , which will make you right
even more :)
I am not trying to convince you , i am not convinced myself ! What i am trying to do is to explain to you my explanation to myself, i kid you not ! I have very serious problems with beliefs; religious or scientific. But i have to believe in something, what else do we have ? Everything i think i know it's my belief system and i try to keep it lightly. But experience is real , it sets the agenda.
It is the matter of choice , i guess, whether you trust your felt experiences or don't.
I do, what else can i trust ? All the rest is supposed to be believed in.
Out of all stuff which i have in my head i try to make a model, which, hopefully, may have some relevance to what can only be felt at 'now'
Simply put : you don't believe me and you shouldn't :)
Feb 6 2013: I knew that you weren't trying to convince me, Natasha, even though it would be interesting to know how long I could have withstood your brilliant argumentation skills and depth of thinking to finally make a copy of your candy jar for my personal nibbling only ... :o)
In your initial comment of my first response you said 'In my understanding...', and because I could not understand your 'understanding',yet wanted to, I framed my first provocative reflections... :o)
At no time was any missionary zeal, which, as much as I 'know' about you, would have surprised me if they were... :o)
So as not even you have found MY final answers, or if you did, I am not getting them..., I am afraid that my very last hope is gone now and forever... ;o)
So let's get back to those 'little things' in life, which, after all, may not be as 'little' as they seem and can be quite convincing at times... :o)
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! :o)Feb 3 2013: If you were watching a bug crawl around on the ground and that bug were able to comprehend you,
you would be god to that bug.
We, are able to comprehend ourselves, thus what we comprehend is a god to us, and it is us.
I remember once looking at a willow tree swaying in a soft, gentle breeze and said out loud to myself,
"God doesn't exist. God just is."
Natasha, I very much like what you have said.
Feb 4 2013: I remember once looking at a willow tree swaying in a soft, gentle breeze and said out loud to myself,
"God doesn't exist. God just is."
That's it !
You've just answered Lejan's question "What makes you certain about this?''
Actually, It's not about certainty or knowledge ...it is not mental, one can only intuit it.
How ?
" looking at a willow tree....." you feel as if you are in love with everything you look at, it's soooo beautiful ... perfect !.
At this very instant you get to know something you can't tell.
All my thinking about God, mental modeling how it all could possibly work is a kind of a residue of this experience.
Maybe you liked what i said because you recognized that very moment behind my fuzzy wording :)
Thank you !
Feb 7 2013: Natasha:
Oh thank you so much.
I have copied and pasted your words into another document so that I might reread your ideas again and again and try to reach the real meaning, substance and value of your explanations and ideas. They are beautifully put.
Thanks a lot for them. They sound like they have come from a very clear mind and..... I don't know what to say.
At my best, maybe, don't really know, I practice neither positive nor negative thinking.
But, I pause, when agitated or disturbed and "ask" for the right thought or action.
In other words, I try and practice "pausative thinking" if that makes any sense.
It actually works. The rest is just to relax and go on.
Scot Wilcox
Feb 1 2013: Aha, this is a great question! God does know everything, but He doesn't cause it. There is no such thing as fate or destiny, but yes, God does know what is going to happen. You can choose whatever you want to, but yes, God does know what you're going to choose. There's a fine line here for sure. As for why God even bothers to let us live out our lives when He knows already what they're going to be like, you've got to think about the purpose of life. We're here mainly for our own benefit. We're here to experience things we couldn't in heaven, like pain, disease, and suffering. We need to learn how to stand up after mistakes and repent, how to grow. After this life we'll be judged on what sort of person we have become. God knows who we'll become, but we still have to become that person. No one else can do that for us. This life is a stepping stone in our eternal progression, and even if God knows what that progression will be, only we can make that progression. It's like a parent that lets their child experience the consequences when they do something stupid. If the parent's always stopping the child from doing stupid stuff, then what does the kid want to do? Yep, do stupid stuff. So God lets us do stupid stuff here so we know how stupid it is. He knows it's stupid, and He knows we're going to do it, but we need to experience that for ourselves. Does that make any sense?
- +2
Don Anderson
Feb 1 2013: Scot: "We're here to experience things we couldn't in heaven, like pain, disease, and suffering."
- +2
I agree we are here to experience things we couldn't in heaven, but not only just to experience but also to learn so we spiritually grow. God is like a teacher in that if a teacher just gives you that answers, the teacher knows you will not learn.
Also I believe we are here to experience and learn from the positive events in our lives.
The joy of parenthood, the joy of being charitable, or the wow of a first love are also none heavenly experience we need to learn from for your heavenly lives.
Feb 4 2013: Absolutely. You're completely right.Feb 1 2013: I like your thought process but I have a question. So you're saying then that God doesn't have the power to create people in any way that he wants? By that I mean without having to do anything but will that they exist exactly the way he wants them to start with. Only if he can't do that does it make sense for him to have to go through a more extended process.
Feb 4 2013: You're right. It's not exactly that God has limitations, it's that He chooses to not do certain things. In order to be a perfect being, there are things He can't do. Like be unfair. It's impossible for God to be unfair. It's also impossible for God to force anyone to do anything, because that wouldn't be fair. Growth is a personal thing, and always has been. He created our spirits in an infantile state where we were all equal. To do anything else would have been unfair. Our growth then took place due to our own choices before we were even born here. We don't know how long we were with Him before this life, but since we lived with Him in heaven, there were lots of things we couldn't experience there because it was a perfect place. So therefore we have this life. Does that answer your question? If it won't let you reply then send me an email.Feb 6 2013: One of the reasons I'm concerned about this question comes from classical mechanics and to a more limited extent modern quantum mechanics. When Isaac Newton first discovered his three laws of motion it started some speculation among the scientific community that has lasted until today. That discussion centered around the fact that if the force position and velocity of every particle in the universe are known then their future trajectories could be determined forever. Since we are made of these particles doing this would predict every action that we would ever take. Also, since the data is set in stone so are our future actions. If this is all true then there is no free will. There are some extra issues due to nonlinear dynamics and the non-analytic nature of the solution to multibody problems. They are all solvable with infinite knowledge.
Quantum Mechanics comes closer to restoring free will since it is impossible to determine the results of experiments in advance given that a particle can be in a superposition of multiple quantum states at one time and you can only determine the probability that it will be in one state or another. In my mind, this doesn't really help much since we've just replaced the 100% predetermination of the classic theory with random chance. Admittedly it removes our ability to completely determine the exact course of events, but it bases things on randomness. I doubt that anyone would want to believe that their choices in life are random and if they are random that doesn't sound much like free will.
When you add God into the mix you provide the complete knowledge that is necessary for the classical view and for God quantum mechanics isn't random at all. Every result is already known. Since the entire path of the universe on a microscopic level is thus predetermined the macroscopic path that contains our actions is too.Feb 5 2013: "This is why I choose to be agnostic, as my mind isn't capable to recognize 'the truth' in between all possibilities, and this only for the case that 'the truth' was existent....."
Reflect upon your own statement.... If you have reached this stage in your self-investigation, then accept this incapability as your "truth"...at which point you'll be free to see, hear, smell, taste and experience things as they really are.
Free will, Omniscience, Omnipotence and their like are all mental constructs...they cloud your visionFeb 4 2013: Omniscience has nothing to do with "will", consider a person who has seen a movie too many times, that person knows every little bit of the story from beginning to end, but that doesn't mean that person has the interest or will to change the events, so an omniscient divinity is not the source of the debate around "our free will"...
The 3 characteristics of divinity are: omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, in that order of precedence. This means: God is all mighty because it knows everything, and knows everything because it is everywhere. So the key issue is: how wide the meaning of "omnipresent" is???... if it includes only space, that would mean that God is subject of the same constraints regarding time we do, so it cannot be 100% sure of the future and your free will is perfectly real and safe. But if omnipresent includes space and time, that is a whole different story, because that would mean that God sees past, present, future and space as a single static object. But even if the last case was true, your "free will" is not necessarily compromised, because God might be just an spectator who only pushed the play button and doesn't have the desire, interest or will to intervene.
Now, since God is omnipresent, its essence cannot be separated from the rest of the universe, so no one could ever prove either its existence or nonexistence, which means your free will is as real and safe as your definition of "God" and your beliefs about if its desire, interest and will of intervene in our destiny.
Gail .
Feb 2 2013: For the sake of argument:
- +1
What if beyond this moment, there is nothing but potentials. Some potentials are more probable than others, but all potentials have a valid existence. Tomorrow hasn't happened yet, so it's nothing more than a potential. Yesterday is gone, so it's nothing more than a potential. The only moment that we can be sure that exists is the (infinite) moment of "now" - which could be said to be God.
If God is omniscient, then it can still be aware of all moments of now that exist NOW. This would leave room for free will. There is even room for free will if God is aware of all of the new potentials at the exact new moment that you make a choice that changes the probabilities of potentials. If God's omniscience is complete in the moment of NOW, then it chooses with you (because you are of it and with it as one - thus you choose for it and as it)
To better understand what I am saying here, you could look at the "Many Worlds Theory" (it used to be called the "Split Universe Theory"), as well as the supporting scientific evidence upon which it is founded.
But if you conflate "omnipotence" with "omniscience", the whole thing breaks down very quickly If God is omnipotent AND omniscient, then God is either 1) responsible for every decision that you make, and everything that happens to you, so there is no free will and even Holocaust survivors can credit God with the Holocaust. Or 2) That God knows the potential consequences of your pre-known decisions and refuses, in spite of your prayers, to intercede on your behalf - making him a rather worthless God. Even worse would be 3) That God picks and chooses which prayers to answer and you never know if it will choose to answer your prayer or not - which is provably a rather abusive thing to do.
NOTE: I will not argue with Biblical theists. I'm merely answering a question with information that offers an evidence-based way of viewing the world that we live in. (evidence =/= proof)
Feb 2 2013: Excellent reply. The many worlds theory is interesting. It arises from quantum mechanics wherein the state of a physical system is described as a sum of probabilities that it is in two or more discrete quantum states. The observation of the system by an experimenter results in an answer that belongs to only one of the constituent states. It is usually held in the multiple worlds theory that all possible states are actually observed but that the Universe instantaneously splits into enough universes to account for all possible outcomes.
I think the theory is probably wrong. If for example a particle is in a state such that it has a 25% chance of having energy E1 and a 75% chance of having energy E2 then a minimum of 4 universes must spring into existence three of which result in E2 and one with energy E1. My feeling is just a personal opinion of course but Occam's razor seems to apply here.
Feb 2 2013: But what if reality doesn't split into all possible outcomes - which given that every possible outcome exists in potential - seems to my mind to be an improbable potential - then free will can still exist.
If you and a friend are walking down a sidewalk and you come upon a cat in a box. One of you says "Look! A sleeping cat". The other says, "Look! A dead cat". At that point, one of you kicks the box and reality splits in two. In one reality, the cat jumps out of the box and runs away. In the other, it's dead. It only splits into two because a third wasn't present saying, "Look, an unconscious cat", or a fourth who says "Look, a stuffed cat that looks like its sleeping", or a fifth, who says, "Look, A freeze-dried cat in the sleeping position", or a sixth asking "reality is an illusion, so what does this mean to me".
You can simplify this further. Let's say you're walking down the sidewalk alone, coming upon the same box. You look and CURIOUSLY wonder - considering several options - including the option of what else could it be. As you kick the box, the universe splits and the same number of possibilities as you considered continue with various yous seeing only one outcome - with the other yous existing with equal validity in their own realities, all of which exist in the present of the super-positioned you, that exists with all new presents as part of its "now".
The super-positioned you could be called a god, all the various yous could be called gods, and your free will is still intact, as a god's should B.
Combine this with the Big Bang, where all existed as aware singularity, then at the moment of explosive expansion, (kicking the box) the singularity still exists in superposition, outside of your ability to observe it directly though it knows self as yous. All are therefore one, and all are gods - and if all are gods, does god mean anything - especially if "God" is only a super positioned observer of its self at any given moment of now.Feb 2 2013: I just had another thought about the many worlds theory. If all possible eventualities actually happen just in separate copies of our Universe then for each of us there are Universe where we go to Heaven and just as many where we go to Hell. The whole thing is pure speculation of course but interesting to think about.
Feb 2 2013: Yes, but as we can always choose to consider new questions, (Part of your being exists in the timeless and is in communication with you in order to know what you are up to) no one is stuck where they don't want to stay. Again, it's a matter of free-will (combined with the awareness of your own innate power)Feb 2 2013: Here is where the value of "fear" comes in. In my experience, fear calls forth questions and questions are ALWAYS answered. thus the latent question of "how can I get out of here" WILL occur, and at that moment, reality provides an answer.(if you find yourself in Hell) or "Is this all there is?" if you find yourself in heavenFeb 2 2013: Hi TED,
"But if you conflate "omnipotence" with "omniscience", the whole thing breaks down very quickly"
In our opinion God is both, and uses His power and His knowing to get us as far from hell as possible. But He created us in His image and likeness, so we have the power of free choice. If we could not choose we are no more than LEGO puppets. God did not create evil, we did by wanting to get away from Him and love ourselves. He still loves those who chose to go to hell and live with people just like them.
If we could only manage the approach that whatever happens to us, only happens to give us a chance to improve our character.
We are now in the 'womb' of heaven, its seedbed. We are not here for our entertainment or comfort but to become angels. Nothing else.
We can pray for any car or a higher income but that is very much the same as what we used to ask Santa, with the same result.
To take the Adam and Eve story literally is silly. You believe serpents talked at one point? :) You believe we are in this anti-God state because someone ate from the wrong tree?
Adam means 'mankind' and there are strong indications there were pre-Adamites..
If correctly understood, the parables about Creation and Adam and Eve and others can be applied to every single person in this whole world now.
And this is the real heaven and hell. There is a strong parallel beween us as parents and Him as God. See if it makes sense to you.
Feb 2 2013: I was a Christian for 30 years. I have studied Christianity in depth - including many of its manifestations. I have studied its history, many of the oldest texts in their original languages and through various translations (for comparison). I have studied the differences between the teachings of Jesus and the opposing teachings of Paul. There is a reason that I said that I would not argue with a theist.
I find it rather hard to believe that there is an adult in the world, who is able to converse on an adult level on a site such as this, who is not fully aware of what your God stands for.
Feb 2 2013: I started with a quote from your post, and you say I'm not aware what my God stands for??
Were you also one of most Christians that believe in three Gods?
BTW most would not like where Paul is now.. not good.
Have a great weekendFeb 2 2013: Hello Tedsters,
After reading some comments, I've become compelled to dig a bit.
Why did the Judeo-Christian God make Adam and Eve with anything forbidden in the first place?
I view it as: you're cute pets that I programmed and here is a toy I'm going to dangle right within your reach, and I'm going to see how long you last in this environment while not touching it, then I will train you to be who I ultimately want you to be like if you fail to abide by my laws, even though I could have either created you to always obey my laws or give you absolute freedom to do whatever you like, so I would never have to see my creations scrapped and have to make new ones.
I just don't get why this God had to be the shepard that led his flock out to graze and pointed at a random patch of grass and told it not to graze that specific patch.
I could probably continue with these analogies, but it just seems irrelevant for someone so mighty to create something that seems more like amusement to this God than creations to "work with God". I can only assume that is where humankinds need to make reality tv shows comes from.
On the other hand, religion is amazing for the fact that it spreads collaborative and kind ideals usually. I find that to be the best side about religion, but some of the tales are a bit too tall for me to fathom.
So, in response to the question, God is either not omniscient and ultimately imperfect, but has a lot of pull in what happens in the universe or another great tale made by humankind.
Feb 2 2013: Those were exactly my conclusions as well.
Fritzie -
Feb 2 2013: Derek, do you think we may all have stories we live by that are how we assemble our understanding of the world? People often believe they have "real" evidence for their own stories while other people's stories are myth. Some stories have names- religions, particular mystical traditions or pseudoscience that may be closely associated with a particular person who disseminates (and offers "evidence" for) that teaching, cultural/traditional- and some are more individual, with not enough popular following to have a name.
- +1
It is ironic that this commonality among people instead turns into such a source of hatred, disrespect, intolerance, and strife.
I appreciate your consistently open-minded attitude of looking for the value in others
Feb 4 2013: Thank you for such a high compliment Fritzie! I think I should give credit to the numerous mistakes I have made in my life that I am now consistently open-minded in looking for the value in others. Like the saying goes "do unto others, as one wants done unto thyself", or something like that.
I usually see something similar in everyone's strife, and that also gives me understanding and pre-used solutions that can be reshaped, then reused to aid in those similar issues, or at least that is what I think I'm aware of.Feb 3 2013: Hi Derek, maybe this will help. In the Swedenborgian understanding of the Garden of Eden, in fact of everything in the first 11 chapters of Genesis, is that it is has a spiritual meaning. It was copied into the Old Testament by Mozes from an earlier Revelation.
The whole story has nothing to do with an actual garden or actual trees. The Tree of Life (which was in the midst of the garden) portrays a willingness to be led by God and do His will. To love Him and the neighbour.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is an approach to life that is totally wrong. It is trying to figure out spiritual things (and God) based on sense experiences and human ideas and arguments. This approach is so wrong, and useless, that it was, and still is, forbidden. The story of the serpent (which portrays the human senses) is to warn that we cannot explain and proof higher, spiritual, things from our lower, natural level.
As you may know, at some point later in Genesis, that bad tree has taken the place in the midst of the Garden instead of the Tree of Life. In many minds it still is.
This is only the tip of the tip.. but if you'd like more details on the subject this is the link and if there are any questions or concerns, I'd love to hear them. http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/studies/Parable_Adam_Eve.pdf
Come to think of it, if you'd like to see the actual book all this is based on, which deals with Genesis chapters 1 to 9, then this is it
http://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/writings/Arcana%20Coelestia%2001.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1Feb 2 2013: Then again we might look it as a stoic or Meister Eckhart. We might also think in terms of Kosmos as Marcus Aurelius would Now I have a headache as there is nothing infinite about my ego. Cna we really answer such questions in ways that would satisfy everyone?
Feb 2 2013: Probably not, But its fun to try.Feb 2 2013: Hi Robert. thanks for the age old question :)
Now we are given the opportunity to approach the spiritual side of life with our understanding or smarts. So now we can not only say "I believe" but also "I understand what I believe."
First, what is the reason for creation? In short, God loves people so much He wants us all to come to heaven. The more the merrier. But for someone to go to heaven, that person needs to have heaven within him/her already when the body dies, or that person would hate to live in heaven.
In order to have heaven within us, we need to love doing good and love truth (for the sake of good and truth, not to become rich or famous). In order to love something we need the freedom to do so. Love can only exist in a condition of freedom. That is the case in every relationship, whether it is a spouse or a God.
This describes If we had no freedom: http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/studies/Freedom_No.pdf
God is indeed omniscient because He is in time but not a part, or limited by, time. The same with space.
This means God is in the past as well as the present and in the future. Part of the reason for that is because time and space are conditions of this material world. In the spiritual world there is no time and space but only an appearance.
No matter how detailed God's knowledge is about what we will do tomorrow, He leaves it totally up to us which side of the bed we decide to come out of. We have no control what happens to us but we do have total freedom (if mentally healthy etc.) how we will react to what happens to us.
It is how we decide to react to what happens to us, which determines what kind of a person we are and will become. We are what we love and our character is the result. In fact it is our character that determines our eternity.
This world is the seedbed of heaven. But we are not forced to go there, it's up to us. I hope this book will help.
Feb 2 2013: I myself have often said that even if I thought there was a Heaven I'm not sure I'd want to go. I'm having way too much fun right here. So, I can understand your thoughts about needing to have Heaven in you before you are ready to go there.
Feb 2 2013: The view that God's exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals is known as predestinarianism.
- +1
Its advocates reason that God's divinity and perfection require that he be omniscient (all-knowing), not only respecting the past and present but also regarding the future.
According to this concept, for him not to foreknow all matters in their minutest detail would evidence imperfection.
This concept would mean that, prior to creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his powers of foreknowledge and foresaw and foreknew all that would result from such creation, including the rebellion of one of his spirit sons, the subsequent rebellion of the first human pair in Eden, and all the bad consequences of such rebellion down to and beyond this present day.
So then, it follows that all the wickedness that history has recorded (the crime and immorality, oppression and resultant suffering, lying and hypocrisy, false worship and idolatry) once existed, before creation's beginning, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future in all of its minutest details.
If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man's creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: "Let us make man."
The alternative to predestinarianism, would have to harmonize with God's own righteous standards and be consistent with what he reveals of himself in his Word.
If God already foreknew and foreordained millenniums in advance precisely which individuals would receive eternal salvation and which individuals would receive eternal destruction, then Bible verses speaking of God's 'patience' and of his genuine desire that 'all attain to repentance' are kind of meaningless.
In summary, I personally have trouble believing that God is omniscient.
Feb 2 2013: I like your thought process on this I've been on similar paths myself. I hadn't heard of predestinarianism though. I think I'll see what "Da Google" has to say.Feb 2 2013: The fact that there is a Bible means there is no predestination. We can choose to read the Bible or decide not to read it.
There are 10 commandments we can obey or not obey.
When the Lord says He will knock on our door and suggest we open that door... we have a choice.
There are prisons because we can change our minds.
This book (actually two books) is about God and His government. In detail.
http://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/writings/DLW_DP.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1Feb 2 2013: Consider Acts 2: 23 and Romans 8:29, 30. God's foreknowledge is an integral part of the Holy Bible. To deny God's foreknowledge is to deny the Word of God. See also I Peter 1:2. Such denial is dishonoring to the God of the Holy Bible. You are embracing an error in soteriology. You believe God saves someone not because he chose them to be saved before the foundation of the world as it clearly states in Ephesians 1:4, 5, but that he saves them because they demonstrate some meritorious act of belief for which he has been waiting and watching, never knowing how they would choose? Such teaching is of human origin and is not to be found in the Holy Bible. People are saved by God's grace whereby He grants the gift of faith, not by ANYTHING they do, otherwise man could rightfully boast about saving himself. Read Ephesians 2:8, 9.
Feb 2 2013: Mr. Long.
Okay, so why does God grant the gift of faith?
And what is that gift exactly?
I ask because you seem to be very intelligent, well-read and well-versed in the bible, among
other topics and subjects.
I don't believe in a God, but I do believe there is something that many call faith.
Hope to me is a completely false concept, although one can come to a place
where to continue on, they grasp at something in perhaps a real, but short-lived
form of hope, that the new thing they reach for, might work.
But afterwards, hope goes nowhere because it is false.
Something has to be done. Along the way, faith of a kind, is built but that too becomes
like hope if it doesn't transform into something else. It will remain like hope, blind.
It is that last or next transformation I find to be of utmost importance and,
I believe that most people, along with not really knowing what it is they believe in,
not really trusting what they say they believe in, either.
I don't know if you will see this post or will even care to respond to it and that's okay.
I assume you believe in God, from your posts and quotes and would like to ask another question.
Do you ever become afraid? If so, what would being afraid mean or represent to you?
Hope you don't mind.
Feb 3 2013: I can only answer according to what the Holy Bible says about your four very important questions.Why does God grant the gift of faith? God made Man in his own image for the purpose of knowing Him and enjoying Him forever. Adam messed it up for everybody. God made a way of forgiveness and restoration. That way is based entirely on God's grace. To save the objects of His mercy from perishing forever God gives them the gift of faith.What is faith? Becoming born again is the only way a person can avoid perishing in what you rightly call the last transformation, or death. To become born again a person must believe in God. To believe requires faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. In accordance with His grace God grants the gift of faith to the objects of His mercy. Without faith it is impossible to please God. If you ask what you must do to be saved the Holy Bible answers that you must believe. But, iIn and of yourself you cannot believe. As you say, apart from God there is no hope. But with God there is hope. That hope has its substance in faith. Faith is essence of things not seen (spiritual things).As a believer (Christian) do I become afraid? Yes. As often as I let my thoughts drift away from God's truth as revealed in the Holy Bible I become partially disconnected from the awareness of God's love. The cares of this world cause doubt, fear and lack of peace. The simple truth is the God is love, perfect love. Perfect love casts out fear. By keeping my eyes upon Jesus the things of Earth grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and Grace.What does fear mean? Personally it means I have allowed myself to lose sight of the sure promise of God to all who believe in Him that all things work together for good and there is no reason to fear, ever. Thank you!
Feb 6 2013: Wow Ed, I owe you an apology.
- 0
Totally forgot about this conversation, and now I realized that I did not word my ending correctly in my original comment.
What I meant to say at the end of my comment was that I do believe in Gods's "all knowing" but not that he foreordains, or knows how we will choose.
I am more in line with the original thinking by the Jews.......God's purpose "unfolds"....it takes time to see his purpose because He is dealing with humans as well as angelic beings who have free will. And as Ephesians brings out........God's wisdom is....."multi-faceted" or has "rich variety" or another translation says, it is "greatly diversified". So God is able to deal with this free will of ours while at the same time moving towards his purpose. Patiently he waits for us to choose and then mercifully he helps us carry out his will. That is how I have always seen it.
In Ephesians 1:4-5 it says God foreordained individuals, yes, but as to which individuals, isn't it possible that we get to choose if we want to or not? I don't get the meaning that you get. That is, that already God knows who will serve him and who won't ahead of time.
Because if that is the case, why drag out all this suffering. Why not end it all and allow evil to be done away with already?
We have to exercise faith to be saved. The choice to exercise faith or not is ours.
The gift of everlasting life to those who have exercised faith belongs to our Creator through provision of salvation in Jesus Christ our Lord. And note I said "exercised faith".....works are required Ed, it's not just about believing. We have to act on our faith, and we have Jesus' example to lead us.
Feb 6 2013: If salvation required even one, small work no one would ever be saved because since Adam's fall there is a guilty verdict on all mankind. Only by the redemptive work of Jesus Christ is there an acceptable sacrifice. Sorry Mary, the Holy Bible allows no human effort to participate in the salvation process. If you embrace such a belief you are not getting it from the Bible. Salvation is all of God. Be well friend.
Feb 6 2013: I think we are talking apples and oranges Ed.
- 0
You are either not understanding me, or you are choosing not to understand me.
In either case, I've cleared the air on my original post.
Feb 6 2013: I understand your original post which reads: "I personally have trouble believing that God is omniscient." Do you stand by that statement? I commend you for your perspicuity in that statement, but not for your understanding of the Holy Bible. Please, Mary, I am not choosing to misunderstand you, nor are we talking apples and oranges. The OP is about God's omniscience, which is precisely what you addressed and precisely what I responded to. It is apples and apples here. If you wish to hold to your position that God is not omniscient OK, I will not try further to convince you otherwise. But don't prolong this by saying I don't understand you. We do not misunderstand one another, we understand but we disagree and I gladly leave it at that.Feb 1 2013: Isn't this a little like asking who can go faster, Superman or the Flash.
If you have a made up character and then give it made up characteristics and then pose questions about what some oddball ramification might be given one of your characteristics you sound like to nerds arguing over comic book heros.
Feb 1 2013: I have no problem saying that God is made up as I'm reasonably sure he doesn't exist. However, it is impossible to prove a negative and if you are intellectually honest you must always admit the possibility that you are wrong. If I must admit that I may be wrong then I must always keep an open mind and must always examine new evidence. As part of evaluating that evidence I had the thought that led to this question. The answer to the question and the process of debating it can lead to further evidence and new thoughts that may lead to better understanding.
Feb 2 2013: Naturally you can not prove a negative however it would be an error to assume that positive and negative always have equal probability.
In this case, god not existing or at least not being required has mountains of evidence behind it and god existing or being required none or next to none (depending if you have any stomach for circular arguments or not)
I will always change my world view based on evidence and in fact have had to throw away many earlier beliefs upon better evidence.
I have never found it necessary to change my world view to include a god.
I wonder why that is.
Feb 2 2013: I agree with you for the most part and have had several major shifts in beliefs in my life as well. The logical contradiction I thought I found got me curious to see what others made of it. It is also pretty controversial topic and, being new to TED, I wanted to see how people would treat it. So far I'm impressed with the results, which also include your thoughts on the matter.Feb 2 2013: Gordon, you have total and complete freedom to believe what you choose to believe. That is what makes you, you.
It is made impossible by God to proof anything spiritual on this natural level. He protects our spiritual freedom as the apple of His eye. It is that freedom that makes us human.
As humans we have total freedom to do good (or evil) and to believe truth (or falsity).
For that reason we cannot measure love, or say what colour is has or how much it weighs, It is a spiritual substance and thus cannot be seen on a screen or in a test tube. This also means we can pretend to love something or someone.
In fact that is the process of life. Kids learn that pretending to act nicely means presents and kindness. It is after pretending for a while (and seeing the benefits) that we learn to love it and so become a kind and nice and loving person.
It is this process that is the spiritual meaning of the Creation Story. To go from a spiritually void person to a fully spiritual person. As is described here,
But the ball is in our court..Feb 2 2013: If you believe God is no more than a comic book character why did you not pass right on by this post? What is there about it that attracted you? Are you hoping to rescue, or convert those of us who believe differently than you do? Do you have a rational basis for not believing in God? If so the entire world is waiting for you to share it. Or do you have no rational basis for not believing in God but choose to not believe anyway? If so you are arational. Or do you think there is rational reason to believe in God but choose to not believe abyway? If so, you are irrational. I am unaware of a fourth classification of Atheism so may I ask which you are? Thank you!


text:
Amazon has Wii Play with a Wii Remote for $40 with free shipping. Wii Play includes: Shooting Range, BIlliards, Find Mii, Thanks!, Pose Mii, Table Tennis, Finishing, Charge!, and Laser Hockey.
Deal has expired
The games are boring, but this is pretty much a free game with the purchase of a controller.
True but this appears to be the older Wii Play that doesn't includes the Wii "Motion Plus" controller.
Find Mii? You gotta buy a $200 console to play hide and seek?
I could use an extra controler after I win the Wii!
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What Happens to Conservatism When the Obamacare War Is Over?
When we look back decades from now, one of the keys to understanding this period in our political history will be the story of how a set of market-based health insurance reforms that started as a proposal from the Heritage Foundation and then were successfully implemented by a Republican governor who later became the GOP presidential nominee, ended up being viewed by virtually all conservatives as not just an abomination but the very essence of statist oppression. Liberals have often expressed wonder or exasperation about the way conservatives changed their opinions about this particular brand of reform. But now that it's driving a government shutdown (and soon a potential default on the debt), we have to acknowledge that it's more than just a policy conservatives hate. The Affordable Care Act is far, far bigger than that. It has become the most important definer of conservatism in America circa 2013. It isn't that conservatives don't still want to cut taxes for the wealthy, or slash the social safety net, or liberate corporations from pesky regulations on worker safety and the environment, or make it impossible for women to get abortions, because they still want all those things. But Obamacare has swallowed conservatism whole.
Since the health-care exchanges opened yesterday, some have suggested that the increased attention brought to the fact of their opening by the shutdown has done the administration a favor, informing more people that open enrollment has begun than the Department of Health and Human Services could possibly have managed on its own. That's probably true. This controversy has also served to remind conservatives that there is nothing more important than fighting Obamacare. Every Republican politician has to prove that their hatred of the law is as great as that of the angriest Tea Partier. Every conservative everywhere is being told that this is what it means to be a conservative, this is so important to their beliefs and the future prospects of their party and their ideological movement that it is worth laying waste to the government and even the economy itself. If you're a conservative and you aren't willing to risk everything on even the smallest chance to toss your spear into this foul beast's heart, then you're not really a conservative at all.
Let's fast-forward a couple of years from now, after this crisis ends without the ACA being defunded or delayed. The law is all rolled out, and while it's far from perfect, things are going pretty well. We don't have universal coverage, but the vast majority of Americans now have insurance, including millions who didn't have it before. It's not dirt cheap, but the trends that are evident today—a slowdown in the overall health-care spending growth rate, mirrored by a slowdown in premium increases—are continuing. More states have put aside their ideological objections and accepted the expansion of Medicaid to cover all their poor citizens, even if there are a few straggler states left. What with "pre-existing conditions" and "job lock" things of the past, even the most doctrinaire Tea Partier admits that there's no more question about whether Obamacare can be repealed. Its tendrils have reached too many people who now benefit from it and would react angrily if you tried to take it away.
Ted Cruz admitted to Sean Hannity back in July that "If we don't [defund Obamacare] now, in all likelihood, Obamacare will never, ever be repealed. Why is that? Because on January 1, the exchanges kick in, the subsidies kick in," and they'll be unable to take away something people are benefiting from. And he's surely not the only Republican who gets this, which is part of the explanation for the ferocity with which they're fighting now. But in our future scenario, the fight over the law will be basically over. There might be some debates about adjusting parts of the law, as Democrats will want to do, but that won't concern Republicans too much. Once there's no possibility left that it can be killed, they'll likely lose interest.
I think that's the most plausible picture of what things will be like in, say, 2015. The question is, if eventually they have no choice but to accept that the argument over the ACA is settled, what on earth will Republicans do with themselves? Because over the last four years, opposition to Obamacare has taken on such an extraordinary power within the movement that all other issues have paled before it.
Sure, they could revert to the old standbys—Cut taxes! Cut regulations! Strong defense! But those are just positions you can take. Obamacare was a war to be fought. And nothing galvanizes, energizes, and defines us like our wars. That's particularly true of the zealots who are driving the Republican party and form such a key part of its base. And if they aren't fighting Obamacare, who will they be?
Wed, 2013-10-02 12:30
Wed, 2013-10-02 14:51
I've often wondered myself why the ACA in particular has become the target of so much vituperation. I think you've hit on it ... the right has had hopes (since Reagan?) of rolling us back to pre-New-Deal days ... and the passage (and possible success) of the ACA is moving us in the other direction. No wonder we have people like Glenn Beck ranting about how America will be no more if Obamacare is not completely defeated. They are starting to recognize that their fantasy America is nothing more than a dream and it must drive them crazy.
Wed, 2013-10-02 23:11
This is why the Republicans insisted on including in the legislation (which they STILL voted against) the scheduled delays until AFTER the next Presidential election, and just before the THIRD Congressional election after its passage. The Democrats, upon learning that the GOP would vote against it ANYWAY, should have set it up to take effect in 2012. They gave the conservative special interests TOO MUCH time to poison the minds of voters before they could see the actual results. The Republicans are calling Obamacare a "train wreck" when THEY are the ones trying to pull up the rails!
Fri, 2013-10-04 01:20
Well, as Margaret Thatcher once said, The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. That leaves you with one option, which Democrats have been exercising all of my life, borrowing money on national credit. The end result of that option, as can be seen from European history, where the idea originated, is war. The Nazi government of Germany built a war machine with borrowed money. After a while it seemed easier to take over Europe militarily than to pay back the money they had borrowed. Political parties in America are no different. After a while it will seem easier to them to tell Americans, You have lost your freedom, than it would be to pay back trillions of dollars.
Bill in NC
Fri, 2013-10-04 09:16
RBWINN, you seem to be missing the point. This is not a socialistic program as it relies on for profit Insurance Corporations. The governemtn DOES NOT own the hospitals, employ the doctors, and administer every aspect of our healthcare system. You screed seems to be against an entity that simpy doesn't exist.
Also, unless your 20 Liberals have not being borrowing to fund social programs all of your life. Where do you think the phrase "tax and spend" liberal comes from? Democrats did not traditionally use deficit spending to fund the safety net, they used taxation. Aside from Ike only Democrats have balanced the budget since WWII. Now that might not fit a certain narrative you appreciate, but it's true all the same.
Thu, 2013-10-17 14:24
I'm sort of confused about all the positive views of this Obama Care. Who is this helping? People act as though health insurance will be cheaper under Obama-care, but here in CA, using the CoveredCA.com website, it's quite obvious that the new Obama Care plans are more expensive that the plans that existed last year.
I am a married, working father of 2. I currently have the Kaiser DED 30/1500 Insurance Plan. which is a pretty basic high-deductible plan. It costs $1050/month. The new Obama-Care Silver plan will cost me $1041/month essentially the same monthly premium.
However the coverage SUCKS!
The Obama Care plan has a 33% higher deductible, a 67% higher emergency room charge, a 50% higher Copay, and an 81% higher Out of Pocket cost; all for the same monthly premium.
So, the "Affordable Care Act" made health insurance LESS affordable, and everyone is giddy? what is going on?
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School of Behavioral and Social Sciences
Faculty Bio
Michelle L. Robertson, PhD
Assistant Professor of Sociology
Phone: 512-448-8609
- PhD in Sociology at Washington State University, Pullman, Washington, 2006
- MA in Sociology at San Diego State University, San Diego, California, 2001
- BA in Criminal Justice at Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana, 1995
Why I Teach
My teaching philosophy stresses the development of students' critical thinking skills and the discovery of their individual voices in a highly interactive classroom environment. This kind of atmosphere allows young people to become aware of different viewpoints and experiences as well as identify their own perspectives within our topics of study.
As a teacher-scholar, I have the opportunity to introduce new knowledge to my students — and this makes for very fulfilling work.


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Day 1 for us here on Tavarua. Had a pleasant flight from LAX to Nadi and made it to Tavarua before noon. After a quick lunch most of the pros went out to Cloudbreak which was 4-foot to double overhead depending upon who you asked. Opting for something a bit less crowded, my brother and I surfed chest-high Restaurants all to ourselves. Not a bad way to start the trip…BULA baby!
From all accounts the contest will be ON tomorrow, so if you're on the West Coast it'll start streaming around 1 or 2 pm. Get your work done early and log on to transworldsurf.com to watch the world's best tear apart 4-foot to double overhead Cloudbreak. You can be the judge on how big it is…
CATEGORIZED: ASP World Tour, Videos
TAGS: ASP World Tour, Cloudbreak, fiji, Tavarua, Volcom, Volcom Fiji Pro
TAGS: ASP World Tour, Cloudbreak, fiji, Tavarua, Volcom, Volcom Fiji Pro


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Find accommodations in Pineville with the hotel list provided below. Search for cheap and discounted hotel and motel rates in or close to Pineville, KY for your upcoming personal or group trip. Discover the most popular Pineville, Kentucky motel and hotel rooms. Browse the Pineville area hotels to find the perfect lodging! Please use the provided map of the Pineville hotels.The Pineville center point is about the area of PINE MOUNTAIN STATE RESORT PARK and 13 miles from Union College.
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Originally written on Football Nation | Last updated 11/18/13
In a quarterback driven league, the importance of finding the right quarterback is paramount to any franchise. Many teams use their highest draft pick on a quarterback in an effort to establish a face for their franchise and get their fans excited about the future. Over the last 15 seasons since 1998, a quarterback was selected with the first pick of the draft twelve times. Some of those draft picks lived up to those expectations, and many did not. Since coaches and GMs have a limited window to prove their worth and ability to field a winning team, that urgency trickles down to the players as well, most prominently the quarterbacks. And some cannot handle that pressure. If a young quarterback does not show enough potential and promise early in his tenure as the starter, coaches will not hesitate to go in a different direction. And if that quarterback was not personally chosen by the GM and coaches in charge, that opportunity is even more limited. As this season winds down, many tea...
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Enrich your pet's diet with appealing treats with no added sugar. Nutritional variety is easy to achieve with Simple Rewards Treats in four palatable flavors. Ring-shaped Timothy Treats are made of high-quality Timothy Grass Hay to help meet his daily fiber needs. Heart-shaped, oven-baked Veggie Treats contain palatable carrots, peppers, flaxseed, kelp and more to add delicious variety to your pet's daily diet. Low fat Banana Treats and Strawberry Treats are made of 100% freeze-dried fruit pieces, so your small pet gets all the scrumptious taste of real fruit without added fillers or sugar.
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PANAMA CITY — Three firms and two commissioners were disappointed Tuesday.
All were ready for presentations on Bay County's secondary water source project, but three County Commissioners voted to delay the presentations and expand the list of presenters to five firms. The decision ran contrary to the commission's request in April asking county staff to narrow the five firms down to three, which would then compete for the design-build contract.
On Tuesday, the motion to delay the presentations until June — and expand the number of presenters — passed 3-2. Commissioners George Gainer, Mike Nelson and Guy Tunnell voted "yes;" Commissioners Bill Dozier and Mike Thomas voted "no."
Nelson made the motion, saying he wanted more time to consider the county's "financial situation" as it relates to the project, which is roughly estimated to cost $25 million. It would tap into the northern end of Deer Point Lake for a secondary water source. The county has $5 million lined up for the project — though not 100 percent secured — through the Northwest Florida Water Management District.
Commissioner Bill Dozier told Nelson the three firms were ready to present at the meeting and some had to travel. Only one of the three has a local office and none is headquartered in Bay County.
"I have taken that into consideration," Nelson said. "I just think it would be better if we heard all [five] of them … at the same meeting."
Tunnell offered support for Nelson and his last-minute cautious approach.
"I've got concerns about the finances, too," Tunnell said. "We really don't have a good handle on what this is going to cost."
That cost will be better understood once the chosen firm does the design work. The county already has about $1.5 million for the project's design phase, said County Manager Ed Smith.
Thomas, meanwhile, strongly objected. He said he didn't mind all five firms presenting, but he had a problem with commissioners acting like they weren't up to speed on the finances or the project.
"I don't understand that," he said. "We're charging rates now to take care of this [project]. We've already raised those fees for what we're charging people to pay for this addition. We've been doing it for two years."
Thomas added: "You're telling the people of Bay County that we jumped into this thing and we're not prepared to do it, and I just don't think that's right."
In an interview after the meeting, Nelson said his actions weren't motivated by a desire to include a specific firm that had been removed when county staff narrowed the field to three.
"That's not true. … I'm sure people are saying that, but I mean I can't help that," he said.
Nelson said he still favors the project, and indicated his attempt to delay it was a last-minute decision.
"To tell you the truth, I just thought about it and thought about it and I didn't know I'd get any votes. You know, I just thought I'd throw it out there because I'm just not real comfortable with it yet," he said.


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The New School
The New School > Student Services > Events
Love to create? Miss making art for fun or self-discovery? Dread critiques? Take part in eight weeks uninhibited and non-judgmental creative expression. Learn about yourself and your peers through art making. Students must attend six out of the eight sessions for maximum group cohesion. Only New School students registered in a degree program and who have not waived The New School health insurance plan are eligible. There is a limit of ten participants.
Contact The New School's resident art therapist, Kelley Linhardt, at email@example.com to schedule a phone conversation or meeting. Sessions take place Thursdays, February 21 until April 11.
80 Fifth Avenue
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Free; limited to New School students with ID; reservations required by calling or emailing


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Moderators: Tonyblack, Jason, Toothy
Penfold wrote:'Love in a canoe' flavour coffee (from Guards! Guards!) took me about five years to get, and then only after a friend explained it to me. I now use the phrase to describe weak coffee when served it in a café or restaurant.
"...No, don't move," [Ford] added as Arthur began to uncurl himself, "you'd better be prepared for the jump into hyperspace. It's unpleasantly like being drunk."
"What's so unpleasant about being drunk?"
"You ask a glass of water."
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Explore the Entrepreneurship.org Resource Center to find resources. Designed with entrepreneurs in mind, our resource center allows you to find materials to grow great ideas.
Total addressable market, or TAM, refers to the universe of revenue opportunities for a product or service.
I was disappointed to have been unable to make the 2014 Global Entrepreneurship Congress last week in Moscow. It's a historic event, in its fifth year, that gathers startup champions from around the world--entrepreneurs, investors, researchers, thought leaders and policymakers--to work together to help bring ideas to life, drive economic growth and expand human welfare. This kind of annual assembly has contributed to the expansion of a global entrepreneurial ecosystem by connecting experts and entrepreneurs across borders and sectors to unleash their ideas and transform innovation into reality.
A healthcare entrepreneur initially planned to be intentional in building her team. But self-selection took over.
Dozens of teams spent the weekend at Healthcare's Grand Hackfest brainstorming on novel ideas to solve problems in healthcare. And at least some of the participants continue to pursue projects that got their start during the Hackfest.
For years, Dave Felker created equipment for one of the world's leading golf companies, Calloway Golf. There he designed golf balls and clubs for the game's best golfers. Then, Dave left Calloway. Throwing the USGA rules out the window and using the laws of physics instead, Dave created the Polara golf ball, which would help correct an average golfer's hook or slice.
HIPAA both regulates health insurance policies and provides guidelines for maintaining the privacy and security of health information.
Each day, Innovation Daily checks the pulse of global innovation--courtesy of Innovation America. Below, we take a look at a handful of relevant stories compiled from the last week.
The Obama Administration unveiled additional details recently of its FY 2015 budget request, which includes $25 million for a Regional Innovation Strategies Program that will continue coordinated interagency competitions.
I have just returned from the Global Entrepreneurship Congress (GEC) where this year over 5,000 people gathered from 153 countries to talk about starting and scaling new firms. Of note this year was the fact that the gathering was held in Moscow at a time of geopolitical tension around Crimea. Given that the Olympics in Sochi attracted less than 100 nations, the GEC last week provided clear evidence of the powerful role entrepreneurs now play on the global stage.
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Birth of Innocence partner agrees to plea dealBy Brent Curtis
STAFF WRITER | March 30,2013The silent partner in a scheme that took millions of dollars from investors in a Vermont film has agreed to a plea deal that could send him to jail for up to seven years.
The U.S. attorneys office in Vermont announced Friday that Louis J. Soteriou, 54, of Middlebury, Conn., has agreed to a deal that would require him to plead guilty to two of the 18 charges against him.
In exchange for his guilty plea to charges of conspiracy to commit fraud and money laundering charges that carry a maximum prison term of 30 years during the making of Birth of Innocence, prosecutors have agreed to cap his sentence at seven years and drop 16 additional fraud charges brought against him a year ago.
Prosecutors said no plea date has been set for Soteriou, who remains free on court-ordered conditions.
Soteriou is accused of being part of a nine-year scheme that bilked as much as $28 million out of about 100 investors. His case was slated to end in a three-week trial featuring reams of financial documents as well as a small army of witnesses.
Soterious partner in the film, Vermont storyteller Malcom Mac Parker, pleaded guilty to federal fraud charges last year and is awaiting sentencing.
Investigation of the troubled film revealed that $28 million in investor contributions had been made to the film from 2000 to 2009, but that only $700,000 had gone toward its production.
The rest, prosecutors said, was used either to repay earlier investors or was given to Soteriou to aid him in what was described in court filings as a quest to achieve a level of spiritual consciousness that would allow Soteriou to escape his own body.
Soteriou, a chiropractor who consulted patients in regard to spiritual, dietary and other lifestyle matters, allegedly received $4 million of the films investments to achieve a higher state of enlightenment, which prosecutors said the two men regarded as an integral component in the films success.
In the plea deal agreement filed Friday in U.S. District Court in Burlington, prosecutors said Soteriou has acknowledged that he knew the money he received was from specified unlawful activity.
But in the plea deal, prosecutors also noted that Soteriou continues to believe in both his spiritual journey and the movie that he needed enlightenment to make.
Mr. Soteriou maintains that his desire to complete Birth of Innocence and his desire to complete his spiritual evolution were sincere and that he continues to believe he will complete his spiritual evolution, that Birth of Innocence likewise will be completed and the investors will be repaid, prosecutors said in the agreement.
The plea deal noted that the court must order full restitution to the victims in an amount that will be determined by a federal judge.
Comments released by Parker, who faces a potential six-year jail sentence, have been damning of the Connecticut man.
In 2010, Parkers lawyer wrote in a nine-page statement titled Regarding Mac Parker that Parker realized Soteriou had used and deceived him after a decade of finding investors for Birth of Innocence.
Faced with the mounting need to repay investors promised returns often in excess of 12.5 percent, Parkers attorney wrote that Mac redoubled his efforts to set this situation right in every way he knew how, and continues those efforts, including this decision to cooperate with the prosecution of Lou Soteriou, which reflects Macs understanding that Soteriou brutally defrauded him, as well as influencing him to put so many others at risk.
email@example.com IN Local & StateRecovery takes time, patience and a desire to change. Full StoryMayor Louras wants the city to have a better idea on what to pay its department heads. Full StoryThe Rutland Town Select Board plans to appoint a new member next week who will serve until a... Full Story
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Elwood Miller, Ph.D., 1925-2011
A longtime member of the Saint Louis University community has passed away. Elwood Miller, Ph.D., professor of accounting, died May 12. He was 86.
Dr. Miller joined the SLU faculty in 1975 as an associate professor of accounting and went on to become a full professor and also served as the chairman of the accounting department. He retired in December 1990.
Prior to coming to SLU, Miller served as a civilian administrator for the United States Air Force Military Airlift Command at Scott Air Force Base, Ill.
Dr. Miller received his undergraduate degree from Southern Illinois University Edwardsville and went on to earn his graduate and doctoral degrees at Saint Louis University.
Ellen Harshman, J.D., dean of the John Cook School of Business, remembers Miller's many contributions to the University.
"Dr. Miller was a valued member of our accounting faculty, served as a leader in the School and is fondly remembered by his students and his colleagues," Harshman said.
Professor of accounting John Keithley, Ph.D., spoke highly of the character and commitment of Dr. Miller.
"Elwood Miller was a fine colleague, scholar and teacher," Keithley said. "He was especially devoted to the ideals of Saint Louis University, the School of Business and Administration, and the Department of Accounting."
Dr. Miller is survived by his wife of 65 years, Virginia Miller; son Scott (Beta), a granddaughter and two great-grandchildren.
A private memorial will be held at a later date. In lieu of flowers, donations may be made to the American Lung Association or the American Cancer Society .


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Midwest Decision Science Institute Annual Conference to be held at the RACPosted Jan. 7, 2013
Midwest Decision Science MWDSI PRESENTS:
April 18-20, 2013
Twinsburg, Ohio
Midwest Decision Science Institute- Annual Conference
The Midwest Decision Sciences Institute is a multidisciplinary international association dedicated to advancing knowledge and improving instruction in all business and related disciplines. To pursue this mission, the MWDSI facilitates the development and dissemination of knowledge in the diverse disciplines of the decision sciences through publication, conferences, and other services. Visit us at MWDSI.org
Join us in Beautiful Twinsburg, Ohio in Kent State's NEW Regional Academic Center (RAC)! The RAC is centered ½ hour between Cleveland and Akron and has easy freeway access off of I-480!
Hosted by the Business Management and Technology Department of
Competitive Papers; Abstracts; Student Papers; Symposia, Tutorials, and Workshops on all topics relevant to Decision Sciences are welcome! Submissions will undergo a double blind review process.Submission Deadline: March 1, 2013
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Most new Alfresco projects use Alfresco 4.0 with Solr as a search engine. This episode of Tech Talk Live is aimed at system administrators and architects who have experience using Alfresco with Lucene, but have not yet dived into what Solr is and how it works together with Alfresco 4.0. This session will bring you up to speed on Solr and how it is integrated with Alfresco 4.0 and at the end you should know:
- What Apache Solr is
- Why Alfresco is using it
- What Solr cores are
- How Solr is integrated with Alfresco
- What the Solr Admin UI is and how to access it
- How to turn on Solr query Logging
- What tool to use to analyze the index
- To understand the Solr related directory structure and files
- Solr Core configuration
- Solr Alfresco Schema and how to extend it
- How to run Solr on a separate box
With Martin Bergljung, Principal ECM Architect at Ixxus, and Jeff Potts and Andy Hind from Alfresco.
[67 minutes running time]


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Obituaries: Nesta Dawn Biehl
|Nesta Dawn Biehl
|Marietta, Ohio
|Nesta Dawn Biehl, age 62, of Marietta, Ohio, died Wednesday, January 16, 2013, at Riverside Methodist Hospital in Columbus. She was born March 26, 1950, in Noble County, Ohio, daughter of the Quaye Pryor and Hazel Marie Pangle Turner. She was employed by Horner and Harrison in Parkersburg, West Virginia, as a seamstress. She enjoyed sewing, quilting, and knitting, and she made each of her grandchildren an afghan upon their graduation from high school in their school colors. She also loved interior decorating. Mrs. Biehl attended Harmar Hill Church of Christ in Marietta.
In addition to her parents, she is preceded in death by one son, Todd Morrison; one grandson, Brandon Morrison; and one brother, Gregory Mahlon Pryor.
Surviving are her husband, William
|A memorial service will be observed Sunday, January 20, 2013, at 4:30PM at McVay-Perkins Funeral Home, 416 East Street, Caldwell.
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The Database of Cheese Producers in Austria - Company Names, Financial Performance, Key Executives, and Contact Details offers the most up-to-date perspective on cheese producers in Austria. The report includes details for 21 cheese producers in Austria which makes the report an invaluable resource for industry executives, marketing, sales and product managers, analysts, and other people looking for key market insights in a readily accessible and clearly presented format. The report is essential for companies who want to find out more about the leading players on the market or to find and contact potential customers and partners.
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