text:
- Frank Barry
- Slo
- United States Minor Outlying Islands
This conversation is closed.
Should Microsoft and Google stand up and oppose the NSA publicly? Will doing nothing work?
The big Media Story today is about a Whistle-Blower who is hiding and
may soon to be captured and returned to the US for Arrest and Trial.
The exposure of NSA spying tactics of forcing Microsoft and Google,
as well as a number of other Internet Providers, both here and abroad, to provide User Records has put this nation's Internet Users on guard.
The NSA's current program PRISM has now been shown to have been
used to invade and capture information from friendly foreign nations.
We are Americans. We claim to be Free. However, in the
last 20 years things have been changing. Can we afford to stay
out of the mess?
What I wrote, although it sounds like an hyperbole, is anything but.
I refer to CNN's presentation on July 17th's video of the US Congress
having a hearing with the Deputy Director's of the Department's of Justice, DOJ, the DIA, the National Security Agency, NSA. and one other.
In the 3 .8 hour Congressional Committee's hearing, members asked pointed
questions and received evasive answers, with promises made that a secret
session would be more appropriate to answer their queries.
The queries by the Congressmen and Congresswomen were to the point
of why the NSA and other such agencies were conducting surveillances'
of US citizens, with partner corporations, collecting said US citizen's information from the telephone (cell phone) calls, email messages, and otherwise, that had been placed and received, and specifically without the knowledge and/or permission of said US citizens, in violation of two of the amendments to the US Constitution, plainly illegal acts.
Hyperbole, not hardly.
I found on my operating system, evidence of the NSA's Prism program.
Regardless of your opinion, please take a few minutes and
respond. ..Your input is necessary. ..Stand up, be fearless.
Lee Miller
Jul 18 2013: To answer the question, it's not the job of private companies to object to government policy. They will only do so if they lose money because of it (which I don't think they will).
- +6
In regards to the topic in general… Do I care if the NSA is reading my email? No, not really. But I do care about the government's use of secret courts and secret interpretations of the law. Those things should never exist in a free and civilized country. To paraphrase Oliver Stone, the question isn't whether you have something to hide, the question is whether you control the government or the government controls you. In a democratic society the people are supposed to control the government.
I think it's sad that many Americans are in favor of the NSA spying because they think it will keep them safe. Not only has it already failed to do that, but it's also turning the government itself into an enemy of the people. Americans don't seem to realize that any government will become despotic if you let it, and they are already sliding down that slippery slope.
Jul 18 2013: Lee Miller 10+
You've won the HITS THE NAIL ON THE HEAD award.
"In regards to the topic in general… Do I care if the NSA is reading my email?
No, not really."
Lee, You understand the problem and if not the solution, at least you know the result.
Please change your "No, not really". attitude, and lend Force to your opine.
It may never come to the point of needing your help to change things.
But I think that you know, that you would be there, willingly.
Jul 19 2013: Thanks Frank. I don't try to hide my online communications because I shouldn't have to – I'm not doing anything illegal. If we reach the point where they come after me just for my opinions, well then, it will be time for more direct action, won't it?
Jul 19 2013: Lee Miller 20+
Gosh Lee, I suppose I could agree with you.
But I don't.
However, it is your call.
As long as you don't mind being observed...
Enjoy the conversation.
Paul Lillebo
Jul 18 2013: What fun it is to whine! The expectation that government, or any group of human beings, should be perfectly honest, is charming in a child, but we hope to leave that illusion behind as we mature and understand more about human nature. Perfection is not attainable, even in a nominally democratic society. People with power become fond of having power, when offered perks they may respond like athletes offered an "undetectable" drug. Of course there's no perfectly honest government; this is not news. But the difference between a dictatorship and a flawed democracy (they're all flawed) is that in the latter the possibility exists to correct the flaws non-violently, perhaps one at a time. That's a vast difference, which the previous contributor claims to not have grasped.
- +4
We don't have a perfect democracy in the U.S., and we never will have - nor will any other country. Many of us are working on correcting flaws in our system, and some here on TED are making positive suggestions. But a few here seem sunk in an abyssal cynicism that doesn't seem to allow for positive thought, much less for actual realistic proposals for improvements.
We're discussing an important subject, and I hope that some of the critics will move beyond unnuanced cynicism to making recommendations for how to deal with the "terror" merchants that the NSA program was set up to combat. The alternative is to do nothing, to not interdict the planned airliner and cruise ship blasts. If not monitor communication, what then? Come with answers, not just whining.
Lee Miller
Jul 18 2013: Here is your solution: Tell the authorities to get a search warrant.
- +2
Your argument is a false dichotomy. The options are not 1) spy on everyone or 2) do nothing to prevent terrorism. The search warrant system worked before and it still works now. The only thing that's changed in recent years is that since the technology to spy on everyone exists, the government wants to use it.
Furthermore, here is why mass spying doesn't work from a technological perspective. It goes without saying that smart terrorists use code words when they communicate. How does the NSA know what code words to look for? They cannot, unless they already have enough contact with the terrorist organization in question to know what code words it uses. And if they already have that contact, they don't need to spy on everyone, only the other people who are contacting that organization.
But here's the kicker: the government doesn't even need a warrant to spy on a known terrorist organization. It never has. Eliminating mass spying wouldn't even slow the NSA down.
A similar situation applies to telephone metadata. A pattern of phone calls can only be suspicious if one of the parties involved is already under suspicion for some reason. And if that's the case, the authorities would *already* have a warrant to monitor their communications. Again, no need to spy on everyone.
Making educated statements about this subject requires understanding both the laws and the technology involved.
Jul 18 2013: Hi, Lee. Thanks for your response.
One small correction: I did not offer "a false dichotomy." Rather, you misread my meaning, perhaps because I wasn't as clear as I could be. I posted that we either act "to deal with the terror merchants" or we don't, i.e., "to do nothing, to not interdict..." I didn't suggest that the choice was between spying on everyone and doing nothing. In fact, I urged contributors to suggest additional means that the President should have or still could implement to safeguard our assets. There may well be other methods - I hope so.
You imply (I think) that NSA IT security specialists don't know that the bad guys might use codes, or that they're unable to break their codes. And that they're doing a lot of monitoring that they also don't understand they don't need to do. Since all that represents the core of their "work," that's a lot to not understand. I agree with you, though, that it takes considerable technical expertise to make an educated statement about their work. That's why I didn't try. Since you make the assessment that their effort, both in internet computer and telephone monitoring "doesn't work," we can take it that you possess a level of understanding that the NSA has not been able to hire. Very commendable.
Lee Miller
Jul 18 2013: Oh, but the NSA understands perfectly well that they don't need to monitor everyone. They're doing it because they want to and they can. The alternative would be to turn down money and power, and who does that? Anyone would act the same in their situation. That's why organizations shouldn't be left to police themselves.
- +1
Steven W
Jul 18 2013: I don't think I know enough to have an opinion on the whole NSA spying. But I thought I would just point something out: In your second to last paragraph, "... And if that's the case, the authorities would *already* have a warrant to monitor their communications. Again, no need to spy on everyone.", here's why the NSA Director says they collect the data beforehand: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/clip/4459431. Basically, if someone falls under suspicion, they can go "back in time" and find out whom that someone was in contact with.
- 0
Jul 19 2013: I used to work with a system that processed metadata. Telecommunications companies keep call records for several purposes. The NSA could request historical info from them. That's what they did before.
Steven W
Jul 19 2013: So basically what you're saying is that the NSA doesn't need to record the metadata because they can request it from telecommunication companies, as far back as they need. But the bottom line seems to be, that some institution -- whether that be the government or a telecommunication company -- keeps a record of your metadata. Personally, I don't care if my metadata is used to help catch terrorists or to optimize telephone networks. Both seem to be perfectly valid uses of that data. Who owns that data -- at least from the average U.S. citizen's perspective -- seems somewhat trivial, to me.
- 0
That said, there do appear to be some things that are concerning about this whole thing -- at least from a moral perspective, anyways. Like, for example, the fact the NSA is collecting more than just metadata from citizens of allied nations. The potential for arbitrary use and abuse of such a system. Or the fact that much of the legal decisions made under this program are by courts that are not directly accountable to the American public. Although, they are indirectly accountable. After all, we elect the officials whom make these decisions.
Unfortunately, cyber security -- or whatever you want to call it -- is vitally important to any nation's overall security. The crux of the problem is that most of us will never know the full extent to which the U.S. cyber security program operates. And with good reason, I think. If every detail of the program was public knowledge, that would severely limit it's ability where it matters most.
So if I were to have an opinion on this whole mess, I would say that the best thing we can do as U.S. citizens is make sure that the cyber security program is as accountable and transparent as practically possible -- which it may or may not already be. Probably not. And then at some point, we will have no choice but to trust our elected officials to make wise and sober decisions about our national defense, and trust they won't abuse such power.Jul 19 2013: Paul Lillebo
Go watch CNN July 17, 2013 as the Congress roasts the NSA.
Paul we and a thousand more of us have made enough noise
to get our Congress to uphold our 1st and 4th Amendment
They are slow, they plod. But when both the Republicans and
Democrats see their constituents' rights being stepped on by
overzealous administrators, they do get started. Watch CNN.
If they do nothing as a result. ..We will toast their feet in a fire.
I don't think this is going to go away. The FISA court must be
dissolved. Otherwise the Inquisition will have returned.
Our 1st and 4th Amendment rights must be upheld.
Jul 19 2013: Wish I could watch it, but I'm in Europe for the summer. I appreciate the efforts of those who have brought this issue to the fore. It's worth investigating, and it's too bad that Congress seems to have taken a hands-off approach to the spy program, letting it grow without proper supervision. An underlying problem is that gathering world-wide intelligence about dangerous "terror" groups is necessary. A key part of this is access to their communications. Given that, how to proceed? Hopefully, Congress will put reasonable restrictions on intel programs.
It's curious to me that not many have voiced outrage over the fact that Microsoft and Google (and other providers) have always had access to the same info that the gov't has gained access to under the NSA program. I guess the theory is that we can trust the private firms but not the gov't. Seems like a questionable conclusion. The telephone company, from the time the phone was invented, has known who I called and when, and who called me, and the police has not had much difficulty in getting hold of that info when they wanted it.
BTW, I'm not sure I see a First Amendment violation here. You may be referring to the prohibition on "abridging the freedom of speech," but it seems iffy whether the NSA data collection has actually abridged any speech. The Fourth Amendment guarantee "against unreasonable searches and seizures" seems a better bet. It could be an interesting court case, since the Supreme Court has not finally settled issues of privacy rights on the internet.
Frank Barry
Jul 19 2013: Paul Lillebo I would like to change your mind.
- +1
There were 2 or 3 Judges on the Congressional committee.
One had vast experience, and chided the DOJ deputy director.
The others joined in too. The consensus was that both the 1st and 4th
Amendments had been compromised by the FISA Court and the DOD's
NSA Prism and other program's searches and surveillances.
..They spoke of an immediate stop to such programs being used
against Americans.
Whether today's Congressional make-up and Leadership
has the guts to make it happen is unknown for now.
..But you can bet we will know soon.
If Congress remains impotent, then the President and the Military
will be in charge of this once great nation. Scary.
Hopefully the Supreme Court's not a rubber stamp these days,
like the FISA court.
Free Americans need to speak freely now, and protect their Rights.
It is time that all take the very few minutes that is needed to email, mail, and
to telephone their Congressman and Congresswoman, their Senators, and
the President himself, to express their opinions.
Perhaps, in your travels abroad, you might find a computer, a mailbox, or a
telephone and join in. Your 'one more voice' could be the deciding one.
To do nothing today is like giving a rich life of plenty to the dogs.
Kareem Fahim
Jul 18 2013: There is no such thing as honest government. Hate to break it to Americans but there is NO difference between a dictator regime and so called American 'democratic' government. The whole system is corrupt [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc3esnkqM7E ].
- +3
Google/MS SHOULD oppose NSA publicly but let's be honest here: NSA and similar entities don't follow any constitution or rules. I think Google, Microsoft and other companies' perception of NSA is of a bully who comes to 'collect' your pocket money, you give him what he wants and hope to live rest of day in 'peace'.
These people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_intelligence_community#Organization) can create wars out of nowhere, fabricate false flag operations, heck they can knock down my door and put me in gitmo without any kind of justification or trial (for posting this comment*). I don't think any company would dare opposing their 'requests'.
Jul 18 2013: Excellent sites for learning the real truth/facts of how the 1%ers control us!Jul 18 2013: Kareem Fahim 10+ You are right of course.
Our government is referred to often, as "the best we can get".
Love it or Leave it is the catchy phrase that media tells us all,
that we all say to one another when expressing replies to
critics. Media telling us what we think. Interesting is it not.
Dang it I've got company.Jul 16 2013: We are Americans. We claim to be Free. -Correction, We are humanity, and we are free.
Microsoft and Google should simply say NO. We should encourage them to say NO.
And good for the French president, he is making a stand effectively saying NO.
Look back to the R.A.F (red arm faction), Basque separatists, Black September, IRA, and if you want to see more current, look here and it' a just sample http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations
As long as we marginalize, ignore or oppress people, it wont matter what technology is in place, as then, like now, people will and do fight for their freedom.
Drone attacks only create yet another generation of peoples, who see first hand the loss of innocent lives, and such measures to drive them into the arms of people who'll use and convert them to attack. Is that what we really want?
Ironically, with all this spying on people, from passports, full body scanners, to microsoft, google et al, all that's happened is that we've in our fear, have allowed those that want to manipulate that fear - to oppress us.
All of those companies are like the French collaborators with the Nazi's in world war two, it would not surprise me if that's why the French President acted accordingly.
The UK has erased laws dating back from the Magna Carta, so not only is it the Americans who have lost with the Patriot act. All democracies have lost.
But I don't think terrorists have won - they are still in the same position as before, in fact probably worse, due to the fact that wars being waged that are now over a "decade" long, and still have no end in sight.
It seems to me that fear and the fear mongers have won this battle, but they have not, and will not win the war...
GANDHI "When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.
Kareem Fahim
Jul 18 2013: "It seems to me that fear and the fear mongers have won this battle, but they have not, and will not win the war..."
- +1
Insha'Allah, truth shall prevail :)
Jul 18 2013: God willing, Jesus Willing, Allah willing, 'what ever you believe in' willing.....
Honestly, I dont mind whom, just as long as... someone ...is willing.
This is not where we should end up, as a society or as humanity, I know you Kareem and Snowdon agree....
So that makes 3 ... and if there are 3 now, soon they'll be 1,000,003, and so on...
Strange thing is as a look at my book called "Ancient civilizations" all of them get more draconian as their time comes to an end.... Something to think about.
shawn disney
Jul 16 2013: You're right. We are drifting along as the Germans did in the early thirties. We have already had our "Reichstag Fire" moment, the Twin Towers affair, unclear as to details, but probably the same kind of phoney false flag operation as too many of our "wars" ,that were "caused by".concocted "attacks".
- +3
As Goering famously said at his trial at Nuremberg. for "National Security" the public will go along with practically anything
It is a dismal realization that we can no longer count on the Congress to do anything much at all.
Jul 16 2013: shawn disney 10+ You are so very right.
History is repeating in front of our eyes.
It is ludicrous to be able to watch it occur and do nothing to stop it.
Jul 14, 2013 · Jamie Foxx weighs in on yesterday's verdict:
'We will make sure that he did not die in vain'
Hooplaw about the death of a young man.
But nothing is said about the death of a nation.
shawn, please keep viewing and contributing.
We need to act in concert and get the public's attention.
Once alerted, they can stop the NSA in their tracks.
I added one thing to this conversation and I have another
piece to add. But first I need the names of the other nations
working in partnership and snooping their citizen's computers.
I forgot where I found that information.
Getting old in my dotter-age.Jul 15 2013: Frank, I agree the last twnety years is where change was happening, but it started when Reagan was president. The time was the beginning of the Christian right wing takeover of washigton. I can just imagine the hate I will be feeling for making this observation, but I truly believe it to be true. The religious right started to band togather and take a political stance that abrogated the hard fought for freedoms that we all used to take for granted. You can see the change in small ways such as if you have nothing to hide the police should be allowed to search your car or home. The giving away of such freedoms as not being pulled over in mass to see if any of you is hiding something or drinking and driveing. The attempt at overturning RoeV Wade, The so-called war on women that in reality is a much worse attempt to put them back in their place as chattel. All of this comes from religious right wingnut leaders, hell bent on resuming head of the household standards for men.Because most people are sheep when it comes to fighting back, these religious zealots have not only done tremendous damage to the "freedoms" of this country, they have the sheeple asking them to take them away. I remember a time in Indiana when the arts were starting to flourish, when we were taught the pledge without the under god insertion, when you didn't see the ten commandments on public land or in the public eye unless it was on church property. Now, it seems that you are at war if you in any way say something derogatory to any that claim Christian status. They act like it is they who are under attack, all the while they, are attacking others of no faith, or the wrong faith. I personnally see no difference between the zealots of Christianity, or Islam. I just wish they would keep their relgion out of the politics of my country.
Jul 16 2013: timothy schlotter --
You have strong view about when it comes to fighting back.
Would you share "your views" about Mr. Snowden's exposure of
how the NSA's current program PRISM has been used to invade
and capture information from Microsoft's and Google's customers
here in the US and world-wide?
I hope you will.
I don't have issues with religious beliefs.
Our nation's people are proud of being able to practice their faiths
unhindered. You can too, or not, without restriction.
..timothy, I understand your feelings. I really do.
Jul 16 2013: I applaud Mr. Snowden's courage for speaking out against a government that has obviously stepped over the line, and is now doing damage control to continue the lies. having been in the military, I know my government is very capable of telling the public what they want to hear, and covering up what they don't want to hear. The fact that there are certain things snowden will not tell makes me believ him more than generals, politicians, [chicken hawks in particular], and the media. It takes courage to take on a country as strong as the U.S. and whether he is in a just cause, or just stoking his own ego, is probably somthing us pee-ons will never find out.
As to religious beliefs, I too believe everyone should be able to pratice whatever they have beliefs in unhindered, but that is not what is happening. All you have to do is look at the laws, and codes being passed to see which religion is being favoured and to see what is happening
Jul 16 2013: timothy schlotter
I applaud your grasp of the situation.
The congress and full administration are ignoring the matter.
Just like they did with the US & EU tech companies dumping
their boatloads & mountains of obsolete Hardware trash on the
beaches of Ghana and elsewhere.
The same companies and many others that specialize in
Computer Software have partnered with US government
agencies to install their spy programs on our Computers.
Where were Bill Gates and Steve Jobs on the day they
made their decisions to sell their customer base to the
US government? Did the US Department of Defense
pay for their Research and Development? What part of
their profits is attributed to Military's NSA and other like
Does the constitution allow the nation's military to go to
war with US citizens?
Mr. Snowden's exposure may have been illegal from the
Justice Department's viewpoint, or the viewpoint of the
US Department of Defense, as the NSA is run by an
American General who takes his orders from the US
Secretary of Defense, and he, from the President.
Mr. Snowden did risk his life to WARN us all.
The DOD's Military led NSA and other agencies who spy on
US citizens, and have been allowed to do so by Current and
Past Administration's have committed Foul Acts.Jul 15 2013: The problem here is also one regarding profit. Tech giants stand to make enormous profits from these intrusions--whether they admit it or not. AT&T has revealed this month that they have been charging the NSA $375 to establish access to a user's data with an additional monthly fee of $10 to continue the tap.
Also, our complaints on PRISM are very biased. I do not support the actions of the NSA, but I must admit that for certain outlets this was only expected. Take Facebook for example: It is a company solely based on stock and advertisement servicing over 800,000,000 users worldwide in the business of sharing personal information. From the moment a user signs-up, they are agreeing to a contract with the company that allows the company to collect their user's data. It's not too far-fetched to have assumed that this data collected was either being handled or handed to a government institution. PRISM was expected. our "freedom" has and always will be a facade.
That said, In my opinion, the above mentioned companies SHOULD protest. However, they stand to gain and benefit more by aligning themselves to the government--after all is said and done, they are but corporations seeking for higher revenue.
Jul 15 2013: Kareem Garriga Thanks a bunch.
On February 23, 2012, (last year) Obama announced a new initiative
The Consumer Privacy Bill of Rights
Nothing was said about the US Government's secret surveillance role.
Only "Companies" were referred to.
A Bill of Rights that consumers should expect, and the obligations
to which companies handling personal data should commit.
1. Individual Control: Consumers should be able to control what
personal data companies*** collect from them and how they use it.
Companies should provide tools for consumers to control their data
that are usable and accessible, giving consumers simple choices.
2. Transparency: Companies should present privacy-related
information in an easily understandable and accessible manner, at times
and in places that are most useful for consumers. The disclosures should
include what personal data the company collects, why it needs it, how it
will use it, when it will delete it, and whether it will share the information
with third parties.
3. Respect for Context: Data should be used in ways that are consistent
with the context in which consumers provided it. If the data is to be used
for other purposes, consumers should have more robust control.
4. Security: Companies should maintain reasonable safeguards to
protect personal data.
5. Access and Accuracy: Consumers should have the right to access
and correct personal data.
6. Focused Collection: Companies should collect and retain only as
much personal data as they need, and securely dispose of it when it is
no longer needed.
7. Accountability: Companies should be "accountable" to law
enforcement authorities and consumers and should take steps to ensure
that employees and third parties with whom they share personal data
adhere to the principles. These steps should include audits, training,
and control over vendors and other third parties recipients of the data.
I haven't a clue what happened to it.
Comment deleted
Frank Barry
Jul 15 2013: Kate. A history lesson, hard to believe.
- +2
This has occurred in real life over the last 20+ years.
I didn't bother the flesh out the ones who started it.
Bush 1 was a catalyst of sorts, selling us to the Saudi's
as their mercenaries, used to whip Saddam into line.
Clinton punished Bagdad, and Saddam once again,
then completed the Bank's deregulation, and expanded
government insured loans with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae,
adding Ginnie Mae, and allowing AIG and Wall Street to have
a field day with their small print investment vehicles. Bush Jr.
an alcoholic schemer, and his minder Cheney, took War and
carpet-bagging to a new level not seen since the Civil War.
After Bush failed to move the social security fund to Wall Street,
(telling us all on national TV, the safety of such a move) he
emptied the Treasury by having the banks audited nationwide
as a prelude to Henry Paulsen's act that convinced Congress
to Bailout the "To big to Fail" Banks and friendly corporations.
The really smart Wall Street Brokers like JPMorgan, moved their
money across the pond. Goldman Sachs caused havoc worldwide
and their CEO got 2 years in the slammer. Bush then handed the
Treasury's $Trillion dollars of Bailout to Obama, and retired to his
Central America plantation. Obama? That's a whole different deal.
He is into total control. His impact thus far is continuation of Bush
war policies, and throwing bailout money at businesses, while he
punishes them with fines for doing nothing, and a healthcare plan
that only benefit's the health insurance corporations with 30 million
new policy holders and no acquisition costs. Follow the money.
Janet Napolitano just resigned from Home Land Security and will
most likely be the Democrat's front runner for our next President.
Shava Nerad
Jul 16 2013: My understanding is that the companies are obliged to relinquish the data, but that, similar to eminent domain, the government must compensate them at fair commercial rates. So AT&T is receiving fair value for what might in real estate be called "takings." What I heard from former NSA is this is passed through shell companies (can't have a large payment from NSA on the books ;).
- +1
Jul 18 2013: Shava Nerad 10+
I am remiss in not responding to your earlier efforts. I apologize.
You wrote 3 items and this one caught my interest completely.
"1 day ago: My understanding is that the companies are obliged to relinquish the data, but that, similar to eminent domain, the government must compensate them at fair commercial rates. So AT&T is receiving fair value for what might in real estate be called "takings." What I heard from former NSA is this is passed through shell companies (can't have a large payment from NSA on the books ;). "
I will research to find if the other involved NSA co-conspirators were paid as well as AT&T.
There are several more US government snoop programs involved here also.
And, I have read of some other nations in the EU, and maybe elsewhere, running
companion programs as well.
Shava, thank you for your intelligence.
If I am overwhelmed by wading through too much Military Spy information to find the
truth, the NSA must be staggering under their illegal loads. Now I know how the FBI
must feel investigating the Mafia.
Wait 'til I bust the damned Appliance that Microsoft left on my computer.
Bill Gates better have some answers.Jul 13 2013: Microsoft's willingness to conduct surveillence for governments was no secret to anyone following the issue years ago. A Wikileaks cable revealed a deal struck between Microsoft and Ben Ali in Tunisia, where Microsoft provided technical training for law enforcement. The Tunisian regime was known for imprisoning journalists, bloggers and political opponents. http://www.zdnet.com/wikileaks-microsoft-aided-former-tunisian-regime-3040093837/
Also, when Microsoft purchased Skype they re-engineered the network's p2p supernodes, and at the time it was criticized as being merely for interception purposes - http://www.extremetech.com/computing/132935-microsoft-tweaking-skype-to-facilitate-wiretapping. Microsoft assured that it wasn't for interception, but to improve the user's experience. Then they filed a patent for Skype interception technology - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/29/microsoft_skype/. Skype's cooperation with the PRISM program roughly coincides with Microsoft's purchase of Skype.
In addition to the facts you've presented below, Microsoft also purposely leaves security holes open for the NSA for some time period before patching them - http://techrights.org/2013/06/15/nsa-and-microsoft/. This shows Microsoft's commitment to working with intelligence agencies, and their true lack of care for our security.
I certainly have more respect for Google as a company, but Larry Page's commitment to privacy is obscure, and their business model is dependent on tracking our activities and interests.
While Google seems to genuinely desire the freedom to reveal more information to the public about their cooperation with the NSA, it seems to me that Microsoft only seconded that request as a desperate attempt to redeem some of their reputation.
Jul 13 2013: Thank you Fred.
I'm looking forward to chasing the links you've provided.
I will get back with a further opine or two.Jul 13 2013: Fred, thank you.
I read the first link ZD Net. I think we all don't know what is happening.
1. US Government has taken too many steps beyond what is right.
2. US Congress has been lax in it's oversight responsibilities of the
various agencies dedicated to security, intelligence, and law enforcement.
3. These Agencies are running their separate Internet(s).
4. Leadership may not be what we think of when we think of President.
5. Two down, and the Supreme Court is also out of the picture.
6. The question arises then; Who is in Charge?
7. I pose that the builders and maintainers of SIPROS and those other
separate Internets (Internal Nets) used by these various agencies have
a hand in the lives of all of us.
Gets a bit scary when it comes out in the open. WikiLeaks was right.
The problem is that these agencies can change their Internets faster
than the pokey slow Congress can learn about them.
Fred, your first link was amazing. Please review where it takes you.
I am off to watch the other linkis. And I will be coming back to the first one.
Thank you thank you
Jul 14 2013: Mass data collection and storage is an unpleasant fact of the present. I certainly believe domestic surveillance by intelligence agencies in the US is unconstitutional and should by no means be legally legitimized. But we'd be hard pressed to make a legal case for not surveilling foreigners, and even if we reign in our country, that leaves every other government and company to do as they please. The spy industry has been born and it will never go away.
Thus we may be able to solve the legal issue, but the technical issue remains a threat that only a technical solution can resolve. The truth is, the surveillance of communications content could be ended today, if only everyone started encrypting their content. PGP and similar two-key algorithms are the solution to this. With PGP, you get two keys, one for encrypting and one for decrypting. Messages and files could be made into complete gibberish using either key. If you encrypt a message with one, it can only be decrypted with the other. So you label one your public key, and the other your private key. You give your public key to the world, and if they wish to send you an encrypted message they would encrypt it with this key. Once it's encrypted, it can only be decrypted by your private key, which you don't share with a single soul.
There's a couple problems with this. One, you'll be lucky to find one or two people willing to have an encrypted conversation with you. Two, this won't hide who you are, where you are, who you're talking to or where they are. There are other tools for this (Tor), but in the end, the tough truth is that if you wish to secure your communications, you have to do it yourself, and it's going to be technical.
What the world needs is an internet that's naturally encrypted, by design absolutely secure, and a tech industry that wishes to keep it that way. Luckily there's a few parties working to do this (the Guardian Project, Open Whisper Systems). But ultimately security rests on the populace.
Jul 14 2013: Fred, it's after midnight here, so I must be off to bed.
But you sound like you've a handle on things.
I noted when reading the WikiLeaks Tunisian messages
that there was mention of multiple Intelligence Internets.
Our government seems not to want to let us know about
these things. Excuses can be made for them to exist,
but, I think there really isn't any valid excuse.
Hidden government leads to foul government. Perhaps
we need to try transparent government. The best thing
would be that it would work. The worst, we have.
Through your tears, count the bodies of those killed and
maimed, innocent men, women, and wee children. Those
our government is responsible for when it makes pre-emptive
wars upon other nation's shores.
Foreign revengers, labeled Terrorists. attacked by Drones.
Today's Collateral Damages, tomorrows lies.Jul 21 2013: Of course they should.
Just as all religious leaders, spokespeople, and followers and believers should be daily, loudly, consistently and certainly courageously, condemning all the evil that has been done
through or behind the shield of religion, and demanding not only that it all stop
but to do so until those who continue the perpetuation of these evils stop.
So too should all scientists do exactly the same to those scientists who have supported, used
and been employed by those who have used discoveries and inventions from the
world of science for murder, torture, brainwashing, programming,
experiments against the will of others or without their knowledge, infecting humans with disease,
genocide, war and all other atrocities that science has helped and enabled, until they stop, cease,
and refuse to be a part of such evil corporations, institutions and agencies.
Until then, neither science nor religion can provide a moral context for people to live by and
though science per se isn't in the morality business, they are people and are thus bound
by dignity for life to be an example, or else it is true. Science leads to evil
Jul 21 2013: Random Chance 30+ Of course you're right.
This below is the same as you so aptly describe.
I took the liberty of identifying them as today's conditions require.
Just as all REPUBLICAN and DEMOCRAT POLITICIANS leaders, spokespeople,
and followers and believers should be daily, loudly, consistently and certainly
courageously, condemning all the evil that has been done through or behind
the shield of REPUBLICAN and DEMOCRAT POLITICIANS, and demanding
not only that it all stop but to do so until those who continue the perpetuation
of these evils stop.
So too should all TOP SECRET INQUISITOR'S FISA courts do exactly the same
to those TOP SECRET INQUISITORS who have supported, used and been
employed by those who have used discoveries and inventions from the world
of science for murder, torture, brainwashing, programming, experiments against
the will of others or without their knowledge, infecting humans with disease, genocide,
war and all other atrocities that science has helped and enabled, until they stop,
cease, and refuse to be a part of such evil corporations, institutions and agencies.
Until then, neither TOP SECRET INQUISITORS nor REPUBLICAN and DEMOCRAT
POLITICIANS can provide a moral context for people to live by and though neither
per se aren't in the morality business, they are people and are thus bound by dignity
for life to be an example, or else it is true. TOP SECRET INQUISITORS leads to evil.
History shows that the INQUISITOR'S of olden times who tortured non-believers have
been waiting in the wings of POLITICS to strike again. Evil men. Blood on their hands.
They stifled human creativity for several thousand years. Now, today, they appear
amongst us as the vassals of REPUBLICAN and DEMOCRAT POLITICIANS.
What evil lurks in the hearts of man? ... Lamont Cranston, the Shadow knows.
Jul 23 2013: Frank.
Thanks very much for that.
Well done, well put and thanks for letting a little bit of me
be a part of it.
I remember when I was much younger, books that were published
trying to tackle some of the repercussions of WWII.
WWII directly affected at least 3/4's of the world's population on up to
the seventies. One book in particular was about how can we humans
spot and stop allowing or putting into power those kinds of monsters
that the Nazi leaders turned out to be?
Well, surprise, surprise. American's have done exactly that in my opinion.
Their leaders are sociopaths and psychopaths of the same variety who have
studied what Hitler and et all did and are now doing today.
The same is true in other countries but the U.S. is the main demon.
Jul 23 2013: Random Chance 30+ You are right.
The peoples of our world just don't understand how WAR actually works.
They think that the State Department's Diplomats have reached a point
that negotiations break-down and there is not other course of action left
but to stomp the heck out of the other nation. ..By prior agreement the
other nation's leaders are given safe passage if they capitulate before
the slaughter begins.. Internal coups usually result in the nation's
leaders being slaughtered first, or later after a court rules.
In any case that is what people believe. WRONG.
WAR actually works as a tool to produce SPOILS..
Spoils of WAR are what pays the Banker's Golden Parachutes'
of riches beyond belief. -- The same Banker will support both
sides of any conflict at the same time, if the price is right.
War's provide Spoils taken during and afterwards..
..Increased production of Weapons and their sales.
..Taxes from increases of Gross National Products.
..Confiscated Lands that can be traded for riches.
..Lost populations of men, women, and wee children.
..Conqueror's Armies, and Private Mercenaries left to rule.
WARs do not change.
..Conqueror's Secret Politics.
..Conqueror's Corruption, or Graft, nor Greed.
..Conqueror's Rebuilding Contracts paid as crony prizes.
..Conqueror's Spy agencies, who hunt down the revengeful.
..Conqueror's History books, to be read by wee children.Jul 20 2013: I do not think it possible for Google and Microsoft to stand up to the NSA essentially because the executive branch of the federal government has become too powerful, and I also think the NSA is so out of control that it can not be reigned back in. I think the responsibility is on us as citizens, individually, to use legal electronic counter measures that make such spying by the NSA impossible. Just to be explicit, the technical means do exist today to secure your communications against spying by the NSA, even with their massive computing resources.
The biggest problem in achieving this is that the majority of Americans do not seem to care about this issue sufficiently, as they would prefer to give up their private information in exchange for the "free" services they get in return. Many other Americans feel they have nothing to hide and so don't see a problem. I find that rather sobering.
Quick Poll: How many of you would give up using Facebook and Google/Bing if that was part of regaining our privacy? Looking for viable secure replacements? We have a few examples struggling for acceptance (for example, see startpage.com) but they are not well known and are nowhere near as full featured as their better known counterparts. Full solutions would take some time to emerge, and in the mean time, how would we stay in touch with people or find stuff on the web? That is the biggest problem.
The next biggest problem is that securing our transmissions against the NSA is not practical today for the majority of people. Although the technical means to secure our communications exists, this is way beyond the reach of most people to do themselves. Part of the problem is that the other end of your communications (the person on the other side of the phone or email) also needs to practice secure transmission techniques.
Comment deleted
Jul 20 2013: Thanks for the reply John.
The countermeasures I am proposing would make it impossible for organizations to collection private information, such as you stated. While this would make it impossible for private organizations to target these countermeasures, the NSA would certainly take notice. Without the technical means to spy, they would likely try to outlaw such measures, making it a crime to use them. We saw our federal government launch a criminal investigation in 1993 against Phil Zimmermann for deploying similar measures.
I think the reason for the Microsoft stock dropping was not related to this NSA privacy issue, but rather their inability to sell what has traditionally been their cash cow: The Windows operating system. They are trying to diversify into other form factors and the cloud, and Windows Mobile has been a huge mess for quite a few years now.Jul 20 2013: John S. 10+ I think you are right.
John you've won the HITS THE NAIL ON THE HEAD award.
Thank you.
We all need to get busy today, tomorrow, and all next week.
Everyone Please.
Sit down and write out the most Dangerous Acts the NSA and DHS
and other Domestic Spy Agencies are capable of doing to us all.
It won't hurt any of us to take that First Step.
Remember the KISS principal. ..Keep It Simple Stupid.
Let's together with TED conversations provide a roadmap to safety.
And Please - Please - Post it on this TED conversation.
Frank Barry
Jul 20 2013: Danger Lampost 10+
- +1
I rise in support of your statement
"I do not think it possible for Google and Microsoft to stand up to the NSA
essentially because the executive branch of the federal government
has become too powerful, and I also think the NSA is so out of control
that it can not be reigned back in."
Individual State Governors are starting to hear from their voters on this very thing.
My State of California has a Governor who may be in the running for President
next election. Like Janet Napolitano, he has been mum on the topic.
Janet Napolitano took flight from the Department of Homeland Security, the other day.
Some one might say the first rat to leave the sinking ship. But I think maybe she
just wants to crank up her campaign for the Presidency. She has a problem that has
not gotten much press. A Big Problem, Napolitano's DHS has created it's own Domestic
NSA of sorts, with a nationwide scope. The Atlanta GA based DHS Fusion Centers are
in Partnership with the Major Military War Materials suppliers like Boeing, etc. Boeing
and others provide their Employees to work and learn at the DHS Fusion Centers.
So, when the NSA has been squelched, and we all breathe a sigh of relief, we will
have to do it all over again. Plus if she runs for President, and wins, use your
I don't mind being whelmed, but Over-whelmed, Arrrrrugh !!!
Comment deleted
Jul 25 2013: That is such a scary reply you have that I really am stunned. If you're saying that by protecting our own privacy, we are helping terrorists, we are truly lost.Jul 20 2013: Good News for the privacy inclined . . . The Supreme Court of New Jersey has ruled that the police in that state now need a warrant to get at your cell phone data! Here is a link:
http://mashable.com/2013/07/19/new-jersey-court-warrant-cellphone-data/ To quote from the decision: "This opinion announces a new rule of law by imposing a warrant requirement." State v. Thomas W. Earls (A-53-11) (068765) there is a .pdf link on the page given here.
They dropped this late Friday w/absolutely no deference for the critical import of this decision to the world at large or to this TEDthread in particular! How rude of the NJ Supreme Court (I say w/great sarcasm & w/apology to the judiciary for my feeble attempt at humor!)
The nose of the camel is now inside the tent flap! How long will it be before the entire camel comes in from the desert rain! ('er wind - it is raining noisily outside here. I gotta keep my metaphors straight!)
This is good news for the people who demand privacy. Enough people now have cell phones such that the law has no choice but to respect the common expectation of privacy of all Americans, not just those in New Jersey!
Jul 20 2013: Juan Valdez 10+ thank you...
Citizens of New Jersey should be one their knees giving thanks for some brief respite.
The last time the NJ Attorney General did this type of thing, It took only a day or so to reverse.
That's why they dropped it on Friday. It might get more press for a longer period of time.
Picture this scenario, in your mind, if you will.
Two Droner's with the GPS Target locator button, ready to push.
One says to the other, "Wait, not yet. That's the coffee shop our target is in.
My wife is there also. See, her GPS says she's right there.
Wait 'til she leaves, then splash him all over the place."
Now doesn't that sound like a waste of good coffee?
Shava Nerad
Jul 18 2013: Generally if you check on your Congressional delegation's web sites, they have times that they spend in their home districts that you can sign up for "office hours" just rather like professors have. Also there are town meetings. If you don't like to use their web site (in which case, why are you here?) try calling their offices and ask for the "Constituent Services" staff, and they will fix you up. You might have to wait a while.
- +2
You might not get very much time, so I would recommend preparing for the meeting. If you have interest in a specific issue, you might find it better to meet with a staffer who advises the senator or representative on that area -- for example, if you are concerned with the NSA, find out if they have a legal, military, or national security staff advisor, and set up a meeting to talk to that person. You'll likely get a longer slot sooner.
These meetings usually are educational both ways. The rep/senator or staffer will listen to your concerns and any new information you bring to the table, and may have information from "inside the beltway" that may make you feel better, worse, or both about the entire thing.
Also, you get to have a real say in how your people in DC are treating the situation, as a person who takes the time to schedule a meeting is weighted far more heaviliy than a letter, fax, email, or (God knows) an internet petition. It's considered that you are not only someone who cares, but cares enough that you probably influence others (including other likely voters! :). So yes, it means your opinion counts for more. You are a citizen lobbyist, even without a checkbook in hand.
This is, in fact, what the term lobbyist originally comes from -- from people who just buttonholed their delegation in the *lobby* of Congress to ask them to represent their opinions on the floor. This is your constitutional right to petition Congress for redress of grievances in the Bill of Rights. Use it!
Is that propaganda? ;)
Jul 19 2013: Shava Nerad 10+
I see what you are trying to explain.
But I am an old man with 3/4 of a century under my belt.
Been there, Done that.
Your education is not in question. We all know you are smart.
So pick your side and fight.
You can take the government's position and make their excuses.
Or, take the people's position and do all those things you tell me about.
Lastly, you can do nothing.
Your choice. We will still defend your right to your choice.
And argue our positions with great vigor.
There is a problem.
We are trying to discover a quick solution by having this conversation.
Maybe we will be successful, maybe not.
But we can all have fun trying.
By the way. Your next conversation just shows --
"View the full conversation"
If you thought you had written anything else, it was lost.
G'nite.Jul 18 2013: Ok there is a way to stop it, that is if AT&T, Google, Microsoft et al
It's where they DONT get paid for the data or for the time it takes them to collate it.
Then and only then will they really stop, and use the guise they they want citizen freedom and no more nsa spying.
So mail your senator, say you dont care about spying, you just dont want these corps paid for it. See the sparks fly.
Jul 19 2013: Tify Ndanoboi 30+
Watch the July 17th, 2013, 3.8 hours of CNN's coverage of the
House committee's roasting of the Spy Masters.
Congressmen and Congresswomen did a bang up job.
Check out more about it in my earlier responses to others below,
or above this. Watch it if you can.
Our 1st and 4th Amendments have been trod upon.
FISA courts are loose cannons putting holes in our constitution.
They have to go. They must go. They are wrong.
Judges are only human and can sell their integrity like anyone...
The NSA and the rest of the Spy agencies need be re-Mastered.
The Military portion needs to be replaced, and quickly.
We all remain at risk until those are civilian agencies and know
right from wrong.
We Americans have been asleep while Washington DC has been
busy little bees, making their own brands of honey. Wake up folks.
The next time you vote. ..Think first...
Jul 19 2013: Frank I would love to watch it, unfortunately I'm not in the USA.
I think though CNN have a responsibility to put this on YouTube, after all it's a Global issue.
I'll be mailing them today. I hope everyone else does too, if we all act together, we can win...
Jul 19 2013: Tify Ndanoboi 30+ thumbs up.
I am going to go off topic about something that is far removed from
the subject, but shows that our Congress may be impotent at best.
The city of Detroit declared Bankruptcy.
The Mayor has had a Government Minder in his place for a while now.
During the Bail-out of those too big to fail Corporations, the Congress
and President gave great billions to the Auto Industry, as they begged
for help. A smallest accountant sat at the other end of the table and
with a chart showed plainly why the Auto industry should be refused
and allowed to go bankrupt. The Congress listened and sided with
those who begged. They soon spent the monies, repaid the loans,
and then of course went, as predicted, bankrupt. Their grand city is
today following their lead. Auto Industry Janitors still make $125 an
hour. But where has the money gone? Autos cost $60 thousand
dollars and still break down just as often.
Shava Nerad
Jul 18 2013: For the woman who wondered if her computer was easy to crack into? Easy as pie. The only way to keep your computer from being cracked into is to never hook it to the internet at all, or install any particular software on it that you aren't 1000% sure is free of malware.
- +2
Most computers are mildly infected. Many computers are seriously infected and part of criminal botnets, or rootkitted for other mechanisms, and the owners never know that their computers are being used -- rented out! -- for criminal activities.
anti-virus/anti-malware software really is a good idea. ;) I just shake my head when I run into people who tell me that they don't run the stuff because it slows down their system and they never see anything unusual running on their machine (of course, they wouldn't since the processes hide themselves...). Backup is a good "security" software measure too. You never know when some malware is going to trash your disk. It's rare but you might be sad.
These things don't have to be the NSA to be a tragedy. It's wild out there.
But if you want to engage the issue of the NSA? Become politically active, more than on some Tuesday in November. Get to actually KNOW your congresscritters and your local politicians. Turn out the vote. Revive the democratic system in this republic. Congress is sitting in DC at something between 11-17% approval ratings and they give not a SINGLE DAMN.
And you know why?
Because you guys are sitting in your ergonomic chairs on ted.com talking to each other instead of talking to your lawmakers. As a nation we have forgotten how to engage the system, and no one is happier about that than the folks in DC, because it makes their jobs so much easier, they are foxes in charge of the hen house.
Most of them aren't even bad folks. But they are lazy. You are their bosses, and you aren't doing your job.
Jul 18 2013: Shava Nerad 10+
Until you've tried to talk to your congressman or
administrative regulator, you have no idea of the
difficulty involved. As for the President, forget it.
You're bleeding more Propaganda.
Comment deleted
Jul 18 2013: Kate:
Maybe the topic is to volatile for TED audiences. Or not! lolJul 18 2013: I still have the almighty green thumb and possess the power to bestow thumbs-up at my leisure. Until TED reads this.
Comment deleted
Jul 19 2013: Kate, I just spent 3.8 hours
watching July 17th, CNN's coverage of the NSA hearings,
by the House of Representatives. Some pretty pissed-off
Congressmen and Congresswomen there, and not a dummy
among them. They had two or three ex-judges who knew the
constitution, and they lit a fire under the spy witnesses.
They must have been monitoring our conversations. lol
They brought up most of the issues.
I didn't take notes and so the titles of those they roasted are not correct.
They stuck it to the Dept of Justice deputy, the Natlional Security Director,
the NSA deputy, and a gal from one of the agencies who got blown away
in the first 10 minutes of questioning. She actually left the room for a bit.
The results are that the FISA court is a Rubber Stamp.
There's only one Judge who they change every week,
and only the NSA Lawyers. There's no one to represent the people.
So our 1st and 4th Amendments to the Constitution are crapped on.
Vulgar but true.
I couldn't believe my ears. James Cole the DOJ deputy provided
in one answer the old ODDI defense. The "Other Dude Did It".
I will bet you the Media misses his answer. ..But it was hilarious..
Hey, I just remembered the 'birth control' conversation. We were
mean to you. I apologize. You have my permission to beat me up
on this one. Nothing below the belt like the last one.
I've had a ton of coffee and it's 8pm. Wow, I am gonna hate tonight.
CNN stopped short and I didn't get to see it all.
Then Microsoft had to start messing with me.
I don't bother looking at my Event Log anymore.
It probably has 10 pings a minute from Windows.
Like a bad toilet stopper, -- they never stop...
As soon as the NSA gets taken care of, I'm going back to XP.
I was warned about Windows 7. ..But I just couldn't say no to my
daughter's gift. Now I find out that Win 7 is dumping Windows Live.
It wasn't any good anyhow.
Too much coffee... bye for now.Jul 18 2013: Thank you for the evocative image of infected computers. I already know mine's infected because suddenly a skull and crossbones covers the screen and tells me to get away from the computer for awhile. What I'd like to know is how you knew I was sitting in an ergonomic chair. You're not using some virus to stare at me through my own webcam are you? That would be impressive, because I don't even own a webcam. In fact, I didn't even know this was an ergonomic chair.
Jul 18 2013: The NSA would be very surprised if I were spying for them Daniel...:) *giggle*
Jul 18 2013: That is precisely what a deeply embedded and very convincing spy would say, only the know others know they would say it, so they really wouldn't say it and yet you did, which is why you, who I'm now convinced are a deeply embedded and very convincing spy, DID say it.Jul 18 2013: Yup I am a double triple quadruple agent with night baseball a window and a swoop. Too bad it doesn't come with a government pension. I obviously need to write better propaganda for these guys...;)
Comment deleted
Jul 18 2013: It's not bingo if you don't win a prize. An example of a real bingo would be the thumbs-up I just gave you.
Comment deleted
Jul 18 2013: I was making a joke.
I read your earlier posts, which is why earlier wrote: 3 hours ago: I still have the almighty green thumb and possess the power to bestow thumbs-up at my leisure. Until TED reads this.
I got the earlier ones, too, and noticed them and let me say, thank you.
Paul Lillebo
Jul 17 2013: "The NSA's spying activities in concert with suspected other co-conspirator EU nations, has upset France's President."
- +2
Oh? On July 4 this year, "Le Monde" - France's most respected newspaper - carried the news that the French DGSE security agency has been routinely monitoring computer and telephone communications in France, both of French and foreign nationals. Perhaps M. Hollande didn't know. But as we do know, all the nations that have the ability to monitor communications do so. Like France, China, and Germany, it has suited their political purposes to play innocent and let the U.S. take the hit.
Has it occurred to you that before the NSA got your phone and computer records, Microsoft and Google had them? NSA actually doesn't care about your personal records, they're machine checking millions of records for certain number combinations that indicate communication among suspected terrorist groups. There's about a chance in a trillion that any of your info will be used by the government. Microsoft and Google, on the other hand, care very much about your records. They use them to try to sell you stuff and they (may) sell information about you to whomever. Commercial spying on the net is what we really should worry about, it's many times more damaging than the government security net. Info on what you buy on the net (and in stores with credit cards) is sold to data management companies from whom it can be bought cheaply. A health insurance company can know how many packs of cigarettes or quarts of liquor you bought last year. There's no end to the mischief that can and probably will be done through the commercial recording of all our internet actions. That's where we ought to spend most of our righteous outrage.
That said, it's obviously also important that our government be restricted in what it can obtain from citizens without our knowledge. We need to know more about the judicial process they have to comply with before obtaining communications records.


text:
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subset: commoncrawl


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{ entityCount: 0 }


text:
AniMating in Carrara
I began this thread back in the old forum, and am in the process of adding it to this manual.
After being asked for some tips regarding my usage of The AniBlock Importer for Carrara, I decided that the most appropriate way to help folks is to run a new thread on the subject and, as time permits, I can simply edit the original post to keep the information in one, handy article - while leaving the rest of the thread for asking/answering questions, additional tips, remarks or comments, and we'll see from there where this whole thing takes us. The fact is; I love Carrara's intuitive interface for everything - especially animating. In this, I have developed some insight into getting a lifetime of mileage from the AniBlocks from GoFigure, available here, at Daz3d, and I'm more than happy to share my experiences with anyone who might be interested in what I have to say about it - so here goes… Ready?
Never used the aniBlock Importer? Watch Jonny Bravo's quick and simple video tutorial and watch your questions disappear!
One caveat that I do differently: Instead of copy/pasting the NLA clips, I drag in a fresh clip from the clips tab each time. When clips are copied and pasted, they actually create new clips in the clip tab - which steals resources. We don't want that, now do we. The importer was brand new when Jonny made this splendid tutorial, and wasn't yet aware of that. Here is a short video that Jonny made using aniBlocks in Carrara.
AniBlock Importer Fun
GoFigure has a whole slew of AniBlocks available at Daz. But doesn't it seem that, there never seems to be the exact pose or, better yet, animated sequence for sale that will give me what I'm looking for? Happens to me all the time. Falling in love with the sequencer in Carrara was just the help that I needed to get some really great animations going for my project - with the help of GoFigure's AniBlocks and Posermocap's animations as well.
One trick that I've found to work beautifully is to increase my collections of AniBlocks and animations so that I have more starting points from which to choose. For example, I'm not planning to have any sport-related activities in my movie. But I bought "At the Park" AniBlocks for all of those exciting foot and arm movements that I can tweak later.
"Wait… did you say tweak?" Yup. That's what I do. Here's how:
I'm going to use my favorite TV show as an example here. Star Wars - The Clone Wars (No… I really am 47… I just love that show, though!!!!) has some really great animation work going on. I'm noticing how those Jedi run all around without their arms pumping like a train. Whenever I use a Walk Designer file or an AniBlock, the arms are always counter moving with the legs, which is the proper way to create an 'All-Purpose' walk animation file.
Simple fix. Import the AniBlock. Before saving out the NLA clip, I'm sure to remove the key frames from anything that I don't want the NLA clip to LOCK into animation. CAUTION - Never delete the first key frame of a figure with rigging (like Genesis or V4, M4, etc.,) If the first frame (0) is the only place in the timeline that contains a key, that particular bone will NOT get LOCKED by the NLA - and you'll have to animated it separately.
So, I scroll down the sequencer looking for the arms. Sometimes I leave the Collar animated to get a little sway, but otherwise, I select all of the key frames for all parts of the arms - including the hands and fingers - except for those that are in the zero (0) time frame. (It takes a little practice selecting all but the first keys - but it has to be done!)
If there are any other changes you want to make to the animation, you want to either fix them right now, or delete those key frames as well so that you can easily fix it while your NLA clip is in place.
Once this is all done, select your figure and create an NLA clip. If you notice, you have the option of using "Scene Range" instead of "All Key Frames" for your NLA. Sometimes I don't want to loose the figure's pose while doing all of this, so I set the scene time to start at 1 second. Then I have to make certain that the end of the scene ends on the last key frame - or I get an improper clip. The advantage of doing it this way is that you don't have to get so close to the first frame to delete your unwanted key frames! In this case, you DO want to remove the keys for unwanted bones at the beginning (yellow start point) time frame.
Now that your NLA clip is done, load it onto your character. Now you can mess with using any poses you like for all of you non-animated parts! Wink
Using the Browser
Part of the Power of Carrara's extraordinary interface belongs to its super incredible file organization system - better know as the Browser. Before firing up Carrara, I go into My Documents > DAZ 3D > Carrara 8 > My Presets > My Clips and create a folder structure to help keep my clips organized. I like to be specific with folder names so that I can keep the actual clip names brief.
Example structure:
My Clips > Walk > Complete
My Clips > Walk > Hip_Legs_Only
My Clips > Walk > Hip_Legs_Only > No_Neck_Head
My Clips > Torso_Arms_Only
My Clips > Expressions
You can also do this while Carrara is running, and then choose "Update Folder" from the File/Folder menu (just above the browser - far right side - small icon)
I should also mention that I go beyond the above example structure, and put that same structure type inside folders for Main Characters and general folders for M4, V4, also now Genesis Male and Genesis Female - and I even have an entirely different set for, what I call NPC's (D&D term for Non-Player Characters - bystanders, and the like) So that I can save clips that offer different nuances and style to keep my animations from becoming too static-looking.
Now I have some fun-time importing all sorts of various AniBlocks, deleting everything except for parts that I want to keep for partial body animation helpers and save them off to my browser for use in later animations. Adding everything from the torso up from "Angry Hands" to a walk clip from the hip down makes the character walk around all peeved at the world, etc.,
This is where collecting ALL AniBlock sets makes the job of animating easier and much more fun - with much more realistic results. And once these AniMations are saved to NLA clips, they can be stretched and shortened to further enhance the realism of a scene. Example: Saving out just the Left Side Collar, Shoulder, Forearm and Hand of any of the "At the Park" AniBlocks (or any other set, for that matter) can add amazing differences to any animation. Granted, to make a habit of something this subtle, you'll want to create other clips to finish off the rest of the body.
This is where you begin making an outline (I make my outlines using folders with descriptive names rather than writing them out on paper, etc.,) so that you can save off enough NLA clips to create entire 'Construction Kits' of clips that you simply drag onto your characters in the sequencer - and, voila!!! Instant cool animation made from professional motion capture!
AniBlocks and Genesis
As of this writing, I'm using Carrara 8.5 Pro beta, Build 72
The bone structure of Genesis' new Triax Rigging, in my opinion, is superb. I am completely sold on this technology and am pushing my throttle full steam ahead for collecting products to help in my new Genesis endeavors.
Importing V4 and M4 AniBlocks into Genesis requires a bit of tweaking due to the differences in rigging structures. From what I've seen so far, it's the feet that require the attention. The animation I'm rendering now is "Short Combo", a roughly sixteen and a half second AniMation from the "Martial Arts Combos" set of AniBlocks by GoFigure and it took some time to tweak the feet, but the tweaks were painless using the tweak tactic that I explain next. Another important thing to note about this new Triax, is that it adds a new bone, the Pelvis, which is an incredible addition that creates a much needed buffer between the legs and the hip, allowing for additional bending without rotating the entire figure… Genius! What's more is that, since Gen 4 models didn't have this bone, nothing gets put there from Gen 4 AniBlocks. Now this doesn't hinder the AniMation in the slightest because its zero position is null, for all intents and purposes, but, what it does do is that, it gives us a bone that is free from locking right from the start! Just something I've noticed - I haven't done anything with it yet - but I'm sure I'll find it to be most useful. By selecting the Pelvis and rotating it, you're actually rotating both legs from the upper thigh(where the thigh joins the pelvis to be exact) on down - something I've wished that I could do in the past… Many Times - So I'm one Happy little Guy!!! Smile
Dartanbeck's AniBlock Tweak Tactic
Be it known throughout the lands that, this tactic is useful for any model receiving an AniBlock import - not just Genesis. I also use this same method for Predatron's Low Rez characters as well, who's feet zero out differently than that of Daz3d's Gen 4 models - much more similar to that found in Genesis - so it will be interesting to see how well Genesis AniBlocks work with P3DA's LR figures! (Wow! while acquiring the above url, I noticed that Predatron just released another new LR figure! Very Happy )
Again, if you're actually trying this stuff, I really don't feel as if any screenshot are necessary. Let me know if you have any questions that would be better answered with an image - but please be specific, so that I know what exactly to capture. My time is quite limited.
Obviously AniBlocks, even if they disagree with the figure you're using them on, contain useful movements related to the AniMation in question, so we don't want to go in and delete all of the keyframes of a bone that we want animated, but something just isn't quite right - like the feet, for instance. Speaking of feet, I'll be using them throughout this tactic as further examples, but the same tactic applies to any bone you'd like to tweak, without actually removing the AniMation altogether. So, let's just say that the morphs you've added to M4 make his arms clip where they shouldn't - and you'd like to 'fix' the AniMation, rather than start over - this tactic will work very well for you… I promise!
The Tactic:
To make the explanation easier, I'll use the following scenario:
I've imported a walk loop to Genesis, and the feet are pointed wrong. Here's how I'm going to fix this:
* STEP 1 - Since I know it's both feet that need work, I'm going to select all of the keyframes (except for the first key at frame zero (0) ) for both feet - but don't delete just yet.
* STEP 2 - I click the 'Step Forward' icon (single arrow pointing to the right in the playback console) watching the animation closely. Keep stepping forward and backward to get the feel for the most important parts of the animation for "key" foot angles - like when they should land squarely on the floor, or when they are at full height and should hang comfortably down due to gravity.
* STEP 3 - Once you get the feel for the animation in step two, stop the scrubber at one of those "Key" moments in time. While holding down the Shift key, deselect the keyframes for both feet where the scrubber line intersects. If you're new to this, it takes a little practice getting the right one - clicking just to the right of the vertical line usually gets the key you want.
Now repeat this step at each 'Key' moment in time.
Special Note - As this is a "Looping" AniMation, we know that the motions at the last frame are specially designed to fit seamlessly with the first - so we need to deselect the last keyframe for both feet as well.
* STEP 4 - Delete the remaining keyframes. What we've just done is to remove most of the in-between keyframes that are less important to the AniMation giving us some room to work without having to try and adjust each and every keyframe. Whenever I've tried to correct each keyframe - even when using math to assist - there always seems to be a glitch in at least one spot - which I simply cannot have - It just throws off your eye as you try to watch.
* STEP 5 - (Brief explanation first) - When I import AniBlocks, I follow GoFigure's advice by letting the AniBlock remove constraints where necessary. In Genesis, this throws off the rotation maiking it look like the character has a broken foot. Now is the time to fix that!
For Starters, Let's go in and take some quick notes, shall we? Good.
Select a foot and set the time frame to the beginning.
Open the "Motion" tab on the right of the interface and locate the Rotation value for the "Y" axis (red) and write down the number. While you're here, go ahead and select the values for "X" and the "Z" axis' and set them each to 0.00 right away - Then do the same with the other foot.
Now we need to repeat the last step at the End frame of the AniMation. We are looking for the difference between the starting and ending "Y" axis angle before making any changes, so that our final AniMation loops together smoothly. I made the mistake of making the end frame identical to the first once… Once!!! Rolling Eyes
Once we have taken our notes, we simply go to each frame that we kept and adjust them to match the floor. I set each of the "X" and "Z" axis values to 0.00 as I work with the "Y" rotation with the Rotate tool by hand. Afterwards, if I feel that a bit of tweaking to either the "X" or "Z" axis' would help make things look or work better, I do so, making sure that the first and last frames match up nicely.
Speaking of the first and last frames, let's finish off this step by making sure that we include the differences that we noted down earlier. Simply use either the first frame, or the last to determine which to use as a reference, and then change the other accordingly.
* STEP 6 - Now we're going to start at the End frame and, using the "Step Back" icon (single arrow pointing to the Left in the playback console), scrub backwards through the AniMation. We're looking for problem areas in the foot angles. In this, we're not tweaking both feet at the same time frame, but rather, each foot individually as needed.
Please remember to scrub all the way through problem areas BEFORE MAKING ANY CHANGES so that you can find the middle of the problem, and make your fix there. This will help to eliminate the need for making too many changes and let the tweeners do the bulk of the work for you. Sometimes during intricate animations, you may find that you need to make several keyframes in order to solve the issue. In these cases, treat the problem the same way; scrub through, frame-by-frame, the entire problem and begin the tweaks in the middle of the problem - unless you are certain that another method will work best for you.
That should fix the AniMation and you can now use it to make your new NLA Clip and move on to the next AniBlock.
Daz Studio 4 & AniMate 2
Let us not forget that these AniBlocks are, first and foremost, designed to be used with an incredibly powerful animation tool, AniMate 2 by GoFigure (pssssst - A FREE trial version is available HERE!!!), which works specifically within the interface of Daz Studio 4. Jonny Bravo and I have been thrilled with the possibilities since its inception, and have been pleased with it ever since. AniMate2 contains a wealth of amazing tools for joining, blending and even creating your own AniBlocks! I strongly recommend looking further into this technology if you're at all interested in getting serious with animation. It's great (and great Fun!) to develop and master the skills of hand-crafting your own animations. But in the end, these tools will save you enormous amounts of time - especially when used along with your own! Check it out!
Here is GoFigure's YouTube channel for aniMate2:
GoFigure's aniMate2 Video Tutorials Page
Side Note regarding building animations from scratch - I need to animate many things beyond bipedal human figures. So I need to get in and build by own animation sequences frequently, and I love doing it. Having tools like aniMate2 and the aniBlock Importer for Carrara actually helped me out in many ways, especially in timing out my animations and studying the natural flow of various human actions and reactions. By using aniBlocks, for example, I can study the timing used in the "Surprised" walk style to help see the timing between just walking and suddenly blocking.
When it comes to Daz Studio and aniMate2, I can take this far beyond that, by using the powerful tools (see the "New to AniMate" vids at GoFigure's YouTube page and watch them all in sequence!) to turn my animation into an aniBlock, and then edit the file to my liking - before saving the final result to a new aniBlock that I can use in DS, or import into Carrara. Carrara is my actual filming studio, so that is the option I always use.
Here are some great tutorials available by GoFigure:
► New to AniMate Playlist This will play several short tutorials in a row that cover everything you need to set up aniMate 2 in Daz Studio.
► New Features in AniMate 2 Playlist This playlist likely shows feature that you didn't know where there to use!
► Tutorials Playlist Five tutorials that demonstrate its use.
► Troubleshooting For those times when things just go wrong.
Not really a tutorial… but I like this one that demonstrates a short example of what the Martial Artist went through during his Martial Arts Motion Capture Session.
I truly hope this helps you all in all of your AniMating endeavors!


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