text:
- Brittney Stewart
- Houston, TX
- United States
Special Education Aide, education
This conversation is closed.
When will China be free?
What will it take for China to end its human rights abuses? With the burgeoning youth of China becoming acutely aware of the oppressive nature of their government, how long do you think it will take them to change this, or convince the goverment to change? Will it be a revolution like Tunisia or Libya, if so would the U.S. aid the rebels? Will it happen in the next decade or continue to bubble beneath the surface?
Ann Lee
Oct 24 2011: As an American citizen who is exposed to both Chinese and Western viewpoints on this issue, I can say that the Western media magnifies the human rights issues in China. It does exist but it is not as severe as most Westerners believe. Most people who cry for human rights in China do so without ever going to China or even trying to understand China. Western media choose to selectively hear the minority dissidents and portray China in the worst angle possible. Just as Chinese media is somewhat censored, Western media can be extremely biased to a specific viewpoint. China is doing its best to change to be more democratic so please give it some time. Bear in mind it is the most populated country in the world so change is not a fast process. It does not need any outside forces to "free" or "save" it.
- +7
Oct 24 2011: we don't measure political killings and imprisonment by percent of population. and nobody argued the direction. the conversation opener question exactly asks "when will", and not "will ever".
Oct 24 2011: QUOTE: "...we don't measure political killings and imprisonment by percent of population."
Who is this "we" you are talking about?
And are you implying that even one political killing is too many?
[If so, I heartily agree with you!]
Now, if that is your position, would you mind providing a list of all the countries that have not engaged in political killing?
Here is my list:
Please feel free to add to it.
Oct 24 2011: we is me and my brother. anyone is invited to join.
we do measure, on the other hand, the systems established to prevent such killing, threatening and imprisonment. as of now, the government has to use deception, secrecy and a massive propaganda machine to get away with killing one muslim terrorist suspect, who happens to be an american citizen. in china, the government can simply apprehend such individuals, and then execute them, not even pretending to be a nice guy.
and no, it is not just style. if the establishment can do such things with ease, there is a much greater chance they actually will do. the price attached is low. in the US, a politician can lose the next elections if goes too far. they have their hands bound.Oct 24 2011: So what you are saying is, if the government has to use deception, secrecy and a massive propaganda machine to kill a political dissident this is somehow better than if the government just does it "openly?"
Because it indicates there are systems that, if they weren't circumvented, would prevent such things?
That's not a particularly very high moral ground to be looking down from.
Personally, I do not condone killing under any circumstances but I don't think world leaders will take my opinion into account when they make their decisions.
A single political killing is enough to render the system, under which it was undertaken, equal in quality to any other system that engages in such practices. The difference, if any, is merely one of degree.
Based on your other comments, I suspect you do not know how "things are done" politically here in China.
The politicians here are not that much different than they are anywhere else. The days of Chairman Mao are long past and they are not given as free a reign as you seem to think.
Have you ever been here?
Oct 24 2011: absolutely. if a criminal is on the run, it is much better than if he can commit crimes unchallenged. anyone argues that? i do want to live in a world in which criminals live in fear of getting caught. i better live in a country where politicians fear their citizens, then vice versa. of course, that does not mean i want government to do bad things. quite the opposite.
and that last comment about who is where is quite cheap and older than dirt. the notion that a certain point of view is simply disqualified by the lack of personal experience is wrong on so many levels i can't even summarize. so better stop being that sneaky, and if you have any hard information about the level of freedom in china, optionally compared to the US, you just put that on the table. hinting that you are such a well informed person is not good enough.Oct 24 2011: Krisztián,
You seem to have hit your emotional threshold and gotten into the whole personal attack mode again (assuming I am attacking you and then "counter-attacking" in return.)
Why would you assume asking you if you have been in China is "sneaky?"
There is nothing "sneaky" about it. It's a question.
Have you ever been here?
All of the "other stuff*" is simply you imagining (wrongly) my motives. As for "hard information" what would you like to know?
* " ... that last comment about who is where is quite cheap and older than dirt. the notion that a certain point of view is simply disqualified by the lack of personal experience is wrong on so many levels i can't even summarize. so better stop being that sneaky, and if you have any hard information about the level of freedom in china, optionally compared to the US, you just put that on the table. hinting that you are such a well informed person is not good enough.
Oct 24 2011: it was not a sneaky copout, but you are not going to present your arguments that refutes mine. okay to me.Oct 24 2011: Krisztián,
What part of your argument would you like me to refute?
You haven't actually made an argument of any real substance. You have expressed an opinion or two.
Collectively, you opinions imply you feel governments are "immoral," with some more so than others.
My "counter-argument" to that is all governments operate within a similar self-defined mandate and the difference is one of degree. Which apparently you agree with.
[And those two "opinions" sound remarkably similar to me - although one contains a degree of emotionalism and the other less so.]
A murder who kills one person, and a murder who kills ten people, are both murderers. Or, on a more positive note, a good samaritan who helps one person, and a good samaritan who helps ten people, are both good samaritans.
You also seem to think the US is more "free" than China. You have offered nothing more than an opinion and, as usual, once you make a claim, you expect someone else to provide "hard information" to refute it.
My "opinion" such as it is is based on two points:
- Governments everywhere impose restrictions on their citizens (you agree.)
- I have lived in both countries and find China to be more "open" and less restrictive than the US.
I am not speaking about some philosophical ideal, or political abstraction, I am talking about mundane, everyday stuff, like being able to do whatever you would like to do, whether in business, or in your personal life.
And yes, if you "break a rule" in China, or in the US, or anywhere else, there will be consequences. The rules, and the consequences, are not a secret.
Oct 24 2011: if you believe china is more open and less restrictive, i give you a task:
launch a campaign in the US, and call the US murderer for killing the indians, iraqis, afghans, whatever. see what happens. (help: nothing really, except you happen to meet mr bologna. in that case, you might get some pepper spray in your face.)
then try to organize a similar campaign in china, and call them murderers for invading tibet. see how far that gets you.
so again, we are not interested in the mere fact that there are coercion in all countries. we are interested in the details. what is forbidden in the US, and what is forbidden in china. that is the topic here.Oct 25 2011: You are arguing the specific, I am arguing the general.
And besides, you have to launch your revolutionary campaign before we engage in another "bet." (I'm holding out for my Guinness.)
So what your saying is: You would like to have the freedom to call the Chinese murders, and you are feeling constricted because you can't come to China and do that.
Fair enough.
By the way, you do have the freedom to do it. And they have the freedom to dictate the consequences they will mete out.
Are you okay with that? Or would you rather be able to choose your behaviour and the consequences?
Oct 25 2011: so now we have the thomas jones version of freedom. you are free to say whatever you want, then the state comes and smash your face. i certainly hope you don't hold any public office, and never will.Oct 26 2011: I think judging how much freedom people want based on a few couragous individuals (dissidents) is inaccurate. Most information about freedom in China is not accessible because of government censors. On other hand people in Hong Kong can speak freely and they clearly showed they do not want to have their freedom restricted by rulers in mainland China.
We know as a fact that, for example, the Internet in China is heavily regulated and access to information restricted?
Ann Lee
Oct 26 2011: Yes, internet in China is regulated but to what extent can you say it is "heavily" regulated? It blocks some mainstream Western sites and screens certain contents. I know that the internet is almost like the symbol for free speech in the West but who says that the internet MUST be censorless? Traditional media was never censorless and even the Internet in some "free" countries can be censored or monitored somewhat. Even if internet is somewhat censored, there are many loopholes that people can pass through if they try.
- 0
Oct 26 2011: who says? there is no need for anyone to speak for everyone. i can say i do want to access all sites on the internet. i see no reason why should i not be able to access a site. i suppose many other people agrees with me. so who is the chinese government, who are you, and who are anyone else to tell me what sites i can visit? on what grounds? who am i hurting with it?Oct 26 2011: Krisztián,
You seem to think what you want is the standard by which the world should be governed.
I admire you self-confidence but I doubt very much Hu Jintao will be calling you for an opinion on policy.
Perhaps you should let him know you're available as an advisor.Oct 26 2011: thomas, congratulations. you often misunderstand or misrepresent what i say. but this time your interpretation is the complete opposite of what i've actually said. nice job! :)Oct 26 2011: Well, I must have picked up a trick or two from you. But let's just check to see if I have really misunderstood or misrepresented you:
QUOTE: "who says?"
Who says, what?
QUOTE: "there is no need for anyone to speak for everyone."
And who are you speaking for? "There is no need" is a universal statement. Which of course means, you are speaking for everyone.
QUOTE: "i can say i do want to access all sites on the internet. i see no reason why should i not be able to access a site."
You see no reason why you should not be able to access any site you like. The implication being that anyone who blocks you from looking at any site you like should not do so. They should govern themselves by your standards which includes universal access to the internet.
QUOTE: "i suppose many other people agrees with me."
Many do. I do. But I do not think the Chines people, or the Hungarians need to consider my opinion when making policy decisions.
QUOTE: "so who is the chinese government, who are you, and who are anyone else to tell me what sites i can visit? on what grounds? who am i hurting with it?
Again, the implication is "they" have no right to tell you what sites to visit BUT you have the right to tell them how to govern their own country. You expect the world to govern itself according to your standards.
The fact that your worldview contains within it a proviso that no one should be "oppressed" does not negate the reality that your insistence it be adopted as a "universal standard" is a personal assertion the world should govern itself by your standards.
Though you do not say so expressly, it is implicit in your comments.
So you see, it does appear that "You seem to think what you want is the standard by which the world should be governed."
Zdenek Smith
Oct 26 2011: Yes the Internet in China is heavily regulated. This is fairly easy to prove and you can read details here:
- +2
A few interesting facts:
"Out of the Top 100 Global Websites, 12 are currently blocked in mainland China."
"Amnesty International notes that China "has the largest recorded number of imprisoned journalists and cyber-dissidents in the world."
"Critical comments appearing on Internet forums, blogs, and major portals such as Sohu and Sina usually are erased within minutes."
I am not sure if you are referring to traditional media in the West or in China. Traditional media in the West were never censored (they even published items that hurt past US presidents). Many traditional medias could be influenced or controlled by certain individuals and their ideologies but that does not equal to censorship. Now with the Internet everyone has an opportunity to express themselves and become "media" which is already happening.
Since the Internet is one of the most important tools of human kind it is very important to keep it open so that everyone in the world can communicate and gain knowledge regardless of under what regime they live.Oct 26 2011: Yes, the internet is regulated here. But, so far, there is nothing I want to look up that I have not been able to find. My understanding is that pornography and "politically subversive" content is blocked.
I believe this point will be moot soon enough as the internet will become "unblockable" - the entire web will become a proxy server.
Oct 26 2011: Please read the article about the Internet censorship in China:
Yes you might not need anything that is being blocked which does not really prove that major censorship of the Internet exists. For example:
"Out of the Top 100 Global Websites, 12 are currently blocked in mainland China."
It is great if Chinese government blocks pornography. I am not sure what do you mean politically subversive content since freedom of expression is basic human right?Oct 26 2011: zdenek, no, it is not at all any more acceptable if they block porn. parents should be able to block porn if they so desire in order to protect children. adults on the other hand should be able to freely access such material.
before anyone asks: yes, holocaust denial also should be legally accessible on the internet.
before yet another person asks: no, child porn should not be accessible, but it is not an internet problem. child porn producers should be tracked down and stopped.Oct 26 2011: Krisztian, I wanted to focus the discussion on China rather than porn so I didn't really object.
I think theoretically porn should be allowed. Practically I see some serious problems with it. Unfortunately large number of women are forced to perform sex against their will. How can you ensure what you have online is legal in that sense. Government does not have resources to prevent this from happening.
Thomas Jones
Oct 24 2011: What makes you think China is not "free?"
- +4
Because it is not like, say, America?
What makes you think America is "free?"
There are things you are not allowed to do in America; everyone knows what they are (more or less) and, as long as you do not do "those things," you are free to do whatever you want.
There are things you are not allowed to do in China; everyone knows what they are (more or less) and, as long as you do not do "those things," you are free to do whatever you want.
Guess which country has the most restrictions?
Guess which country provides the greatest personal freedom to do whatever you want?
I grew up in Canada, have lived in America, Kenya, and now live in China. When I moved here, three years ago, my perception of China was probably similar to the one you have now.
To help with my visa application, I taught English for about eight months. One of the classes was called "English Corner." It was an open class, anyone could come and the format was group discussion. My role was to provide a topic and monitor the discussion.
We talked about everything from democracy, and dating, to torture, and corruption. Which is not the point of me telling the tale. The point of the telling is, during one discussion, one of the students said of China (in response to a topic I have forgotten) "Why not, it's a free country."
My emotional reaction to that statement was very telling. I didn't say anything (there was nothing to say) but I felt like a basic belief I held - one I didn't even know I had internalized - had just been revealed.
China is just as "free" as any country in the world, including America. It's just that the restrictions the two countries (for example) place on their citizens are different. How they are determined is different. How they are enforced is different. You grew up in America (probably) so you feel "free" in your culture (unless you break a rule ... then you will go to jail.)
People in China feel the same way about China.
Oct 24 2011: for example this debate is going on an american server, which if becomes a hard critic of china, might get banned there. this is not possible the other way.
Oct 24 2011: QUOTE: "...this is not possible the other way."
Wanna bet?
All you have to do is figure out what your government doesn't want you to say, say it, and see what happens.*
Give it a shot.
And the point will be moot soon anyway ... as the internet will be "unblockable."
When do you think China will be free (assuming you think it's not?)
* The "American Government**" attempted to shut down a small, local CANADIAN newspaper because it printed negative articles about the American President.
** To be fair, it was actually lawyers representing the government that tried to strong-arm the paper. Maybe the government didn't know about it. (Yeah, right.)
Oct 24 2011: yeah, we can bet. disclaimer:
i'm not saying the US government does not try to silence critics. the difference is not the goal of the powers that be. the difference is the current state of the country, the mindset of its citizens, the legal system, and the traditions.
i'm also not talking about a (not so?) distant future. the US is going to the wrong direction with the patriot act and with the war on terror brainwashing. china is going to the right direction. but it still needs some doing to reverse the current situation. those, who seek freedom, the US is still a much better destination than china.
Thomas Jones
Oct 24 2011: Okay. What's the bet? (A Guinness?)
- +2
Here's the challenge: You decide what YOUR government will not allow you to say, and then say it openly and publicly; and attempt to recruit others to your "point of view."
[That it is not really your point of view is incidental - the intention is to find out what happens if you say something YOUR government does not want you to say.]
Oh, and if they intimidate, arrest or kill you - or block your site - you lose, and you owe me a Guinness! If they don't intimidate, arrest, or kill you - or block your site - I owe you a Guinness.
QUOTE: "...those, who seek freedom, the US is still a much better destination than china."
Freedom to do what?
Would you like the freedom to, say, engage in profitable business? Then I recommend China (at the moment.)
Would you like the freedom to engage in some revolutionary activity? Then I don't think I can recommend any place. Western democracies give "lip service" to freedom but just try to overthrow the government and see how far you get.
Oct 24 2011: so the essence of your point is the following
my government does not allow me to steal some sensitive information about our politicians or government "business", and publish it (that's the only thing i have to fear doing). the repercussions are: confiscation of property, fine, harassment, threats, character killing.
chinese government does not allow me to criticize tibetan invasion and occupation. repercussions: imprisonment.
and these two things are somehow equal. it indicates that there is no difference between china and my country (which happens to be hungary). because they both control what can i say.
i hope everyone else sees the essential difference between these. but i hope more and more people see that yes, what my government does is also immoral, though in a much less degree.Oct 24 2011: No, that is not the essence of my argument. The essence of my argument is, that if you do what your government says you should not do, they will stop you.
What it is they will stop you from doing is determined by each respective government. How they reach their decision is, I am sure, reasonable to them. Whether you agree or disagree with their choices and how they make them, is not particularly relevant.
And, like it our not, you don't get a vote in how other countries choose to govern themselves.
We can complain about it, highlight the errors, criticize, and point fingers all we want but it is not going to help. (Has it helped so far?)
Cooperation helps. Criticism, particularly uninvited criticism, doesn't have such a good track record.
QUOTE: "i hope more and more people see that yes, what my government does is also immoral, though in a much less degree."
It is only "immoral" to you because it does not conform to your moral standards. It obviously does conform to other people's (or it would not be happening.)
And I agree with you, it is a matter of degree. And, as far as I can tell, every government in every country (county, state, province, region, city, and town) engages in the same behaviour - the difference being only, as you say, a matter of degree.
I am unaware of any functioning anarchist enclaves.
I don't think it's going to change any time soon.
Oct 24 2011: yes it is the essence, as you repeated it yet again.
here it is
"What it is they will stop you from doing is determined by each respective government. How they reach their decision is, I am sure, reasonable to them. Whether you agree or disagree with their choices and how they make them, is not particularly relevant."
either it is a tautology, which does not add to the conversation, but rather serves the purpose of a red herring, or it means that what each government do, does not matter. only the fact that they do ban some activities matters.
if you were just dropping in tautologies, i'm sorry, it was my mistake to look for some actual meaning.
if you meant what it looks like, then you just did what i accused you of doing: this is extreme relativism, and i don't subscribe to that. for me, the essential question is what governments allow and what they disallow. and that's what makes china much less free than the united states or hungary.
with similar reasoning, we could argue that a bank robber and a torrent user are both criminals, and it is only a matter of degree. technically it is true, but it is very meaningless and consequenceless.
whether it will change anytime soon or not, has no bearing on the fact. if a bad thing is not about to improve, it does not make it neither good nor acceptable.Oct 24 2011: Krisztián,
Based on this and other conversations we have had, you seem to have a hard time following a simple idea without getting ineffectually confrontational.
My point IS a simple one, you even seem to share it yourself, and yet all of a sudden for reasons that seem to make sense to you, it's a red herring, a tautology, or whatever you feel like calling it at the time.
My point is: Every government restricts their citizens (you have agreed) the nature of the restrictions is determined by the government and the culture within which it operates (I believe you even agreed to that) once we have established that, we have established all governments share the same quality, and the difference it a matter of degree (you have agreed.)
That's it.
Could we operate our governments more effectively? Sure.
All of them.
Do you get to decide how China will run its government?
You can ask them.
Does your opinion matter?
To you, it does.
Is there any part of that that you disagree with?
Oct 24 2011: yeah, and i've replied to that already. the point in this conversation is exactly the "how" part. how governments restrict their citizens. but you can continue to muddy the waters if it pleases you. goto 10.Oct 25 2011: QUOTE: " the point in this conversation is exactly the "how" part."
Actually, that is not the point of this conversation; that is a point that is of interest to you. And it's a valid point.
But the point of this conversation is to determine, "When will China be free?"
My assertion is it is free. Or as "free" as any other country.
Your assertion is, it is not free.
We disagree.
I'm going to "disengage" from our little discussion as you have entered that enigmatic phase of your conversation were you say things that require clarification but you (typically) refuse to offer it when it is asked for.
For example, in response to about five separate points, you have said "yeah, and i've replied to that already." What you have "replied to" already - is a bit of a mystery.
As you say, it muddies the water.
Let me know if I owe you a Guinness.
Oct 25 2011: this conversation is getting funny :)
me: "my government [...] chinese government [...] and these two things are somehow equal."
you: "No, that is not the essence of my argument."
you: "My assertion is it is free. Or as "free" as any other country."
hm. are you sure you are clear on your own opinion?Oct 25 2011: QUOTE: "this conversation is getting funny :)"
Hi Krisztián,
That's one of your most endearing traits ... you are easily amused.
You really do have a hard time following a simple point. It's fascinating ... I recall following you for about thirty posts once until the topic author got irritated; it was an intriguing exercise.
I have no intention of doing that again, as fun as it was. So unless you have something meaningful to say I will not be responding to any more of your posts in this conversation.
But thanks for the exchange it has been fun as usual.
Enjoy the rest of the conversation.Oct 26 2011: I think we need to look at human rights as defined by UN and see where China stands. From that point of view China does not seem to have much freedom esp. freedom of speech, freedom of movement and freedom to allow fair elections.
Whether certain population, due to lack of knowledge or propaganda, believe that they have freedom does not make China free.
I lived in socialist country for over 20 years and I think China follows similar principles.
Oct 26 2011: Hi Zdenek,
So what you are saying is we should evaluate China using values established by people other than the Chinese? Additionally, if they, the Chinese, embrace different values, and choose to implement them in a manner that does not conform to externally established values, they are somehow deluded?
Is that about right?
Are you saying, that if the majority of Chinese support their system and find it functional and useful, they must be mistaken?
And, while that MIGHT be happening in China, it is NOT happening in "The West?"
[In my personal experience, the most inculcated nation I have ever been in is NOT China ... it is, in fact, a Western country. The dogmatic, almost mindless, adherence to ideals - and poorly understood ideals, at that - is palpable.]
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things that can be improved here but I find it intriguing, and a little amusing, that people feel completely free to evaluate an ancient, and massively successful culture on terms that have been crafted by people from a different, newer, and arguably, less successful culture.
"China" (for the most part) has the good sense to keep it's criticism of other cultures to itself. If you dig a little bit deeper, you will find that "China" has as many issues with, say, America, as America has with China. (In many ways, they view "The West" as immature.) However, they know that what "The West" has implemented, makes sense to "The West" and do not feel a need to interfere.
The Chinese also do something very well: They learn from other cultures.
I think The West is also learning from China and, I expect, at some point, there will be a synthesis of sorts.
It is already happening.
Oct 26 2011: Hi Thomas,
"So what you are saying is we should evaluate China using values established by people other than the Chinese? "
No. What I am saying is that all people in the world, regardless of culture or location, share basic needs. These needs include freedom of expression, freedom of self determination (choice) etc. These are basic needs that we all have.
It is common misconception that only people in "the West" wants these basic, universal rights. That is not accurate. Universal Declaration of Human Rights was signed by countries from America, Europe, Africa and Asia, including Republic of China:
"Are you saying, that if the majority of Chinese support their system and find it functional and useful, they must be mistaken?"
Given Chinese people do not have many options and freedom to express their opinions how can we then make conclusion that they support their system? Look at people in Hong Kong and how they defend their freedom from the system that is implemented in mainland China. I think that shows that Chinese do prefer freedom, if given to them, over some ideals.
Also look at the Chinese recent history where various Chinese communist leaders like Mao used masses for their own purpose:
"The movement brought chaos, as social norms largely evaporated and the previously established political institutions disintegrated at all levels of government."
Is it fair for Chinese people to pay for mistakes of their leaders and hope for the best? Without decades of communist government ruling China would not need to catch up with developed world over the past decade or so.
United States have many problems (and who doesn't?), however the degree of it is different. I have concerns about recent trends in war on terror and financial system, however because of freedom, people have the power to fix it. cheersOct 26 2011: Zdenek,
This is not personal. Nor is it directed at you specifically but ...
I really get tired of idealism. It is such sanctimonious claptrap.
I have lived in every part of the world and this "idealism" that seems to be so important to so many of us is just a collection of ideas we think are "meaningful."
What is REALLY happening, if you would care to take a look is people are simply living their lives, regardless of the idealism that is so dear to us. It doesn't matter if it's the slums in Nairobi or the heart of Shanghai or New York ... people simply live their lives.
If it is important to you that the Chinese access blocked websites, fine, make that something you work to remedy but trust me, the Chinese don't really care what you think, what you do, or whether they can access the sites you would like them too or not. And if and when they do, they will change it.
As is typical, you assume you understand China. I do not think you do. Nor do I think you understand the Chinese.
For one thing, China does not need to "catch up" because of decades of communist rule, they need to catch up because of, amongst other things, "One Hundred Years of Humiliation" - Japanese and Western imperialism - which included, the British selling opium to the Chinese so that they could have their afternoon tea, and various countries, including America, essentially colonizing China and exploiting it's natural resources. And yes, Mao set the country back decades. Deng Xiaoping, on the other hand, catapulted China forward so that, in 30 years, it has become the second largest economy on the planet and will soon be the first.
It is interesting that the Chinese themselves see Mao as an anomaly. Their view of themselves is millennia long both to the past and to the future. To them, Mao was a "blip" of minor historical importance which is not to say they are not mindful of his failings or his accomplishments (he was instrumental in ending imperialism).
If you want to help, learn.
Oct 26 2011: Thomas,
"As is typical, you assume you understand China. I do not think you do. Nor do I think you understand the Chinese."
These are your assumption that are not correct. While I haven't travel to China, I have many Chinese friends and I have even wife from Asia so I think I do understand quite a bit about Chinese and their culture. One does not need to travel to the Moon to have a good knowledge about it.
"I really get tired of idealism. It is such sanctimonious claptrap.
...people are simply living their lives, regardless of the idealism"
This is really sad to hear that. I see quite the opposite and it is not my feeling but a fact that:
- the whole Eastern block that had socialism collapsed because people wanted political and economical feedom
- Lybia, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain clearly show that people do value freedom
- Hong Kong and massive protests in mainland China that were suppressed by Chinese military also show fairly large support, at least between educated, for freedom:
"If you want to help, learn."
Yes I think learning and education is fundamental necessity for progress of the society and I provided some relevant links that support my claims.
Now I do think Chinese culture and history is unique and it has some great aspects. I think if Chinese people become free they will have political spectrum similar to one in Canada with free healthcare, good social net and even free education. They will become a great example to others. cheersOct 26 2011: Hi Zdenek,
It is true, one does not need to go to the moon to understand ABOUT the moon. Seeing a moon rock would also add to one's understanding; but we could say that the first person in history who might be able to truly say he understands the moon (not about the moon) is Neil Armstrong.
It may be sad for you to hear I get tired of idealism but it's not really sad at all. Idealism, of every kind, is a simplification: We create an idea, say capitalism or socialism, and we "perfect it" in our minds. Now, these perfected images are pristine in their purity.
I have had people tell me capitalism is the perfect system it is only our application of it that is flawed. And I have had people tell me the same thing about communism, Islam, Christianity, socialism, and basically every philosophy, religion, and political system you would care to mention.
They are all "perfect" if only we were to apply them "properly" (which usually means: SOMEONE ELSE has to do them the way WE think they should be done.)
And of course, everyone is right: if we all did capitalism "perfectly" it would work; if we all did Islam "perfectly" it would work; if we all did communism "perfectly" it would work; and so on.
You can see the problem right away, can't you?
Except when it comes to the system you think "will work" - if we only all did it "perfectly" - THAT one is different. That one really will work, if we only did it right.
Idealism is like looking at the world through a narrow hole, we only see a part of it.
For example, you see China as not "free" - and if 1.3 Billion Chinese were to tell you they do not agree with you (and I suspect they would) you would (probably) assume they simply do not know what "freedom" is and you do.
As I say, there is a lot of room for improvement here. And the improvements are coming. But I think you are wrong when you say, "They will become a great example to others."
I think they are already a great example and they will become greater. cheers
Oct 26 2011: Hi Thomas,
Personally I don't subscribe to any ideology but rather I look at the basic human rights and needs and see how in practice these needs are satisfied by various form of governments and markets (same with religion for that matter).
I think democracy and capitalism is far from perfect but it is the best system that works (even thou it sometimes needs an adjustment). The actual implementation of these system differ to some degree between countries and how well democracy works also depends on how involved its people are in politics and local/national government organizations. Theoretically you can vote a dictator to be in charge in a democratic country. I think it depends on how well educated and motivated people actually are.
I think I presented several concrete examples of how people everywhere in the world, including in China (Tiananmen Square protests, Hong Kong) do want freedom, whether it is a majority or substantial minority should not matter. I acknowledge that China has large number of people in rural areas that do not probably care about all this unless they know the implications and are able to participate in how their society is run.
What is unfortunate and one of the reasons why I think China is not currently a great example to the world is the impact China has in security council. So not only Chinese communist party limits freedom of its citizens, they also prevent others get their freedom. A good example is how China votes against stronger measures that are aim at dictatorship in Syria.
Once China becomes free in sense that I described then I think they have so much to offer to the world. Economic growth by itself, in my eyes, does not make any country great.
CheersOct 26 2011: Hi Zdenek
"Basic human rights," however it is you define them, are an ideology.
I mentioned that China has "issues" with "The West" - one is that "basic human rights" are not being honoured in The West.
How can this be?
It is because "The West," represented by you, for example, and your personal ideology defines "basic human rights" one way; and China, represented by Wang Xiaobin, for example, and his personal ideology, define personal freedom a different way.
QUOTE: "I think I presented several concrete examples of how people everywhere in the world, including in China (Tiananmen Square protests, Hong Kong) do want freedom, whether it is a majority or substantial minority should not matter."
Yes of course you have pointed out that which supports your point of view, why would you do otherwise?
I have also pointed out that the majority of Chinese would not agree with you. That you choose to assume your definition of "freedom" supersedes theirs, and is affirmed by a minority of Chinese who do agree with you is quite typical of those of us who champion a particular ideology.
I get it, you think China is not free; and by the ideology you espouse, you cannot see it any other way (this is another reason I am not a fan of ideology.)
I do not share your opinion. One point three billion Chinese do not share your opinion and I don't think any of us mind THAT much that you hold it.
And again, that does not mean I do not support your call for greater access to the internet, for example. I actually do.
However, I am not going to judge an entire culture based on one practice (or ten) I am not a fan of. I would not do that with America and it's atrocities (torture, killing activists and so on) why would I do it with China?
I choose to look at China as it is, not through some narrow hole defined by a personal, or collective, ideology.
Oct 27 2011: Hi Thomas,
"It is because "The West," represented by you, for example, and your personal ideology defines "basic human rights" one way; and China, represented by Wang Xiaobin, for example, and his personal ideology, define personal freedom a different way."
Please read the United Nations bill on Human Rights. It is NOT the West as it includes many countries from Africa, South America and even Asia including Republic of China. If you do not consider this to be a concrete fact against your notion of the "The West" then I have nothing more to say. "The West" might be one of the first to have the closest implementation of these basic ethical principles but people in Libya, Iran, Hong Kong, even China have same universal needs.
"I have also pointed out that the majority of Chinese would not agree with you."
I have provided concrete evidence but you only make claims. Can you give me links to evidence that supports your claims? Will you ignore tens of millions of Chinese people, including ones in Hong Kong, mainland and Taiwan (which China claims ownership of) and their need for freedom as defined in UN chart? Or will you think a a few individuals in Chinese leadership can determine the future of millions or billions in China, Taiwan, Tibet and elsewhere? Who gave them the right and ability to have say on what people are allow to do and what they are not?
I think if you don't see concrete facts that I presented here with links to articles in Wikipedia then we can agree to disagree.
Best luck to your endavour in China. I hope to visit the country one day as well. cheersOct 27 2011: Hi Zdenek,
I do not check links provided in online conversations. I am sure your links support your point of view. And, if you are interested in "concrete evidence" that supports my point of view, it is not hard to find. (I do not think it necessary to provide links as I am relating my own personal point of view, which is supported by my own experience and observation. It does not actually need external verification. I do not expect you to "believe it" or "disbelieve it." You can understand, not understand, agree, or disagree. That's good enough for me. This is, after all, a conversation.)
However, if you like, I could direct you to "concrete evidence" that the world's most corrupt, irresponsible and deadly nation is .... take your pick: America, China, Nigeria, Hungary, etc.
You see, this is my problem with idealism: once we settle on one "worldview," we simply see the world in terms of a simplified set of values. It is, of course, a much easier way of dealing with an amazingly complex situation: we look at what we see; we stop thinking; and we measure what we see against a brilliantly conceived set of "universal" truths. Things "fit" or they "don't."
If they fit, they are good. If they don't, they are bad. Easy.
It actually is very practical. And I have no objection if you choose to see the world in those terms.
I do not wish to do the same.
And again, I am not saying I do not, for example, support your goal of open access to the internet. I do.
I am saying, I do not wish to apply a value system, no matter how brilliant it is, to a group of people (or an individual) who don't (or doesn't) want to embrace it themselves.
That you feel comfortable do so is fine. I disagree with the practice and your conclusions based on it.
If you want to campaign for you basic human rights (however you conceive them) I support you.
I do not support you in your assumptions that people who choose different values are any more "right" or "wrong" than you are.
Oct 27 2011: Hi Thomas,
"However , if you like, I could direct you to "concrete evidence" that the world's most corrupt, irresponsible and deadly nation is .... take your pick: America,..."
I think this conversation is not about what certain American presidents or individuals did but rather this is about whether China has freedom or not. American government created many problems in the world esp. with invasion of Iraq but that is not directly related to the topic of this discussion.
" I am relating my own personal point of view, which is supported by my own experience and observation. It does not actually need external verification."
I use my own experience but mostly I depend on objective rather than subjective data. I learn from verified historical records, current knowledge from independent resources before I make claims. I think personal experience can go only so far.
"I do not support you in your assumptions that people who choose different values are any more "right" or "wrong" than you are."
Did most people in China chose values or were those values impose on them by communist party that took over China by force? As long as people do not have choice then they cannot "choose" any values can they? Did people in Hong Kong choose socialism or did they choose political and other freedoms?
I think we are going in circles here =)
CheersOct 27 2011: QUOTE: "I think this conversation is not about what certain American presidents or individuals did but rather this is about whether China has freedom or not."
Yes, that is what this conversation is about - whether China has freedom or not. And we have established you think China is not free (and you have the data to prove it.)
Give me a minute ... I'll conduct an informal survey here in the office and see what an average group of Chinese people say ... I'm back.
One hundred percent gave an emphatic "Yes, China is free!" [Now, they are laughing about the question.]
See, again, you demonstrate a lack of understanding regarding China: You assume their values are "communist" and were "forced" upon them. They are not and they were not. And the communists did not take over China by force: They expelled the imperialist interlopers "by force." That's not quite the same thing, is it? And ....
Chinese "values" predate communism by more than 2000 years. The Chinese view communism as a minor "experiment" (and one that did not work out all that well.) Now, they are trying something else (market reforms) both have been integrated into a preexisting Chinese framework. That is one of the great strengths of China - their core is solid and they try "new things" to see how they work.
By the way, if your argument is that communism was thrust upon the people "by force" - which is not necessarily an accurate assessment (again, learning might be a good thing) - we could use the same argument that American (or the French) values were imposed on those people by force.
It's not a very compelling argument, is it? And, as it happens, it is spurious.
Oct 28 2011: Hi Thomas,
" I'll conduct an informal survey here in the office and see what an average group of Chinese people say"
It is good to see you take this seriously. Unfortunately one big question remains: how can you ask people who are not allowed to express their opinion to answer your survey honestly? As I said I lived in socialism for 25 years so I know people are scared to say what they think in public.
I agree with you that substantial number of people will say yes, China has freedom. Many truly consider that to be true. Others are scared. Many do not understand the question and many say no. However we don't discuss numbers but whether China is free or not?
A few times you seem to suggest that human rights is an ideology. I think we can agree that humans (and animals) have basic physical needs: to eat, to sleep, to breath. They also have basic psychological needs: live in groups, ability to express themselves (i.e. freedom of speech) and ability to control their lives. Now do you consider these ideologies or basic needs that every human being has?
"The Chinese view communism as a minor "experiment" (and one that did not work out all that well.) Now, they are trying something else (market reforms) both have been integrated into a preexisting Chinese framework. That is one of the great strengths of China - their core is solid and they try "new things" to see how they work."
Can you please explain who is "they" ? Are you referring to General Secretary or Politburo? Or did all people voted or had say in how the country will be run?
"By the way, if your argument is that communism was thrust upon the people "by force" - which is not necessarily an accurate assessment (again, learning might be a good thing) - we could use the same argument that American (or the French) values were imposed on those people by force."
Can you explain how communist party become ruler of China? Did they win election? In America, elected representatives arrived at US constitution.Oct 27 2011: Hi Zdenek,
QUOTE: "Best luck to your endavour in China. I hope to visit the country one day as well. cheers"
Thanks. Things are going well. It is definitely a good place to be doing business right now. We just (yesterday!) secured distribution rights for an American made industrial product with huge market potential.
Let me know when you want to come and I'll see if I can arrange some adventures for you. Give me a bit of notice and, if I can make some time, I'll give you a tour myself.
It is a very cool place. Very different but cool!
Oct 28 2011: Hi Thomas,
It sounds exciting and I wish you luck. Thank you for your invitation.
I definitely see your excitement about China, its growth and opportunities.
I think if we were talking about US we would agree on many more things because I am concerned about some of the anti-democratic and anti-socialist trends in the US.
I believe and support many great things that Republic of China (and other socialist oriented countries including Canada) did. I think it is the right of every individual to receive free education, healthcare and same opportunities. It is also good if China focuses on long term objectives that benefit most people.
Cheers.Oct 28 2011: Hi Zdenek,
QUOTE: "As I said I lived in socialism for 25 years so I know people are scared to say what they think in public."
When I arrived, in China three years ago, I expected it to be how I imagined "a socialist" country to be. My views were formed by people recounting tales of oppression (that really did happen.)
However, just as your country has, no doubt, changed, so too has China. And I am sure my views were amplified by hearing only "one side" of the story.
And the reality is, China is not how I expected it to be.
That is not to say we cannot compare China to the West, draw meaningful conclusions, and make improvements. We can. In fact China is doing that constantly. That's why they are the "rising star" on the planet.
QUOTE: However we ... discuss ... whether China is free or not?
Yes, we are. But whose definition of freedom shall we use?
The UN's?
That the Chinese see themselves as free seems to "bother" people who assume they are are not.
The Chinese are not afraid to express themselves. There may be some who are. But no one I have met is, in the least, afraid to discuss anything - Taiwan, Censorship, politics in general, corruption, etc.
I suppose people who would like to overthrow the existing system might be afraid to talk openly but that is true anywhere.
QUOTE: "... you seem to suggest that human rights is an ideology."
It comes down to a definition of the word "rights." And is more than can be attempted in 2000 characters.
QUOTE: "Can you please explain who is "they" ?"
"They" are the Chinese people; using institutions set up for the purpose of governance. The system is MUCH more democratic than you might expect. Two recent books that might help you understand are:
- "China's Megatrends" by John and Dorris Naisbitt, and;
- "When China Rules the World" by Martin Jacques.
QUOTE: Can you explain how communist party become ruler of China?
Revolution. They expelled the "imperialists."
Just like America did.
Oct 29 2011: Hi Thomas,
I will have a look at the two books you mentioned. However the book with title "When China Rules the World" makes me feel the author has already bias and makes me ask why should one nation rule the world? Is that China's goal? (I don't think it is)
I suggest that you read some books on revolutions because I see that all socialist countries had revolution lead by people that then became dictators. You can see that esp. in Cuba, North Korea but also to some degree in China. Again no free elections.
CheersOct 29 2011: Zdenek,
Martin Jaques also has done a TED talk about China:
Jaques is an author, and he has some interesting ideas, but he also wants to sell books (as does his publisher.) I suspect that has something to do with the title. And I agree, China has not demonstrated an inclination to "rule the world."
You are right, China does not elect it's leaders but this is not "a communist" or a "revolutionary" thing; it is a "Chinese thing" (that has been modified in modern times.)
China will very likely never be a western-style democracy, however, that does not mean it is not democratic.
Read the books and we'll talk some more.
I think you will find them interesting.
Nov 2 2011: Hi Thomas,
I keep coming across articles like this so I thought I will share it with you:
It is sad to see such a state of affairs. Perhaps you consider this as a necessary price to pay for economical "revolution" but I don't consider it fair to those people.
CheersNov 2 2011: Hi Zdenek,
Yes, thanks for the link. I am aware of the situation. Do you think this is fundamentally different than, say, the American auto industry being unable to pay their workers (and having to be bailed out by the government?)
That is what will undoubtedly happen here too. The government will "bail them out."
I think my point is that whatever we "see" in one system, we can also see in any other system if we care to look.
I do not think any system is exemplary.
Nov 2 2011: Hi Thomas,
When American auto industry or any other business sector is unable to pay their workers, the workers are laid off and receive employment insurance. The article notes that large number of workers were not paid for months. Yes both Chinese and US government can provide bailout or not but the unfortunate fact that Chinese works have less protection than US counterparts is surprising.
Both systems are different in many aspects so I would expect to see things in one system and not in the other? =)
"You are right, China does not elect it's leaders but this is not "a communist" or a "revolutionary" thing; it is a "Chinese thing" (that has been modified in modern times.)"
I don't agree. Obviously many Chinese people do want democracy and democracy allows for Chinese culture and values to take place as well through e.g. strong social programs. Chinese people are not "made' for a particular ideology but rather should have choice in which one they want to embrace rather then get one from a group of communists that believe their ideology is the only one good for Chinese people?
cheers.Nov 2 2011: Hi Zdenek,
Have you noticed that, no matter what you "see," you perceive it in a particular way?
Your assumptions are colouring the way you interpret every story, every situation, and circumstance to affirm what it is you already believe to be true.
Let me be blunt: You do not know very much about China AND you do not know China.
That does not mean that what you are "seeing" is not actually happening; it is. What it means is you are using what you see to affirm a preconceived notion you have about China and your preconceived notion is less than complete.
There are one-point-three billion people in China. China is emerging from a period of stagnation that was partially imposed upon them by imperialists and partially self-determined by spectacularly bad policy choices (primarily made by Mao Zedong.)
The population is in flux; at the time of writing about 51% are urban and 49% rural.
In 30 years, the country has become the second largest economy in the world and will soon be the largest.
China is "bailing out" many Western economies that are faltering. They have orchestrated the single largest transition from poverty to wealth in human history. They have the best and the largest road system in the world. They have the largest and most modern cities in the world.
They are extremely democratic in how they make their decisions. They are integrating every institution that will enable them to be be more effective (including a more robust "rule of law," "private property" and so on.)
They do not have a "Western-style" democracy. And the transition is not being made without certain "problems."
What do you see?
You see the problems and the fact that they are not a Western-style democracy.
Until you see "it all" you will not have much to offer that might be useful or valid.
There will ALWAYS be problems - in China and in "The West" - and China will likely NEVER be a Western-style democracy. You can rail against this or you can accept it and learn something new.Oct 27 2011: I don't expect all countries to be as perfect as America...(joking)
My bone to pick with China is that to me, from my standpoint is not free.
I can google Tiananmen Square and get answers.
Freedom of speech is one of the most near and dear to my heart ideas man could espouse.
Total lack of human rights. Leaving baby girls out to suffer exposure does not constitute a free nation, it imposes a restraint on people's consciences and morals.
That's unacceptable to me.
Oct 27 2011: Hi Brittney,
Of course you are quite right to feel strongly about such things. How do you feel about American kids going to bed hungry, starving to death, or being murdered by their parents? How about American babies being born addicted to narcotics; Kent State; "Seattle;" America torturing prisoners, America blocking access to "subversive" websites, and so on?
You see, it's quite easy to point fingers. You (probably) feel somewhat offended by me pointing out these things that ARE transpiring in a country that you "hold dear." You probably feel quite "free" and like you are a citizen of a noble and just country (that makes some mistakes ... Hey, who doesn't?)
Well, that's pretty much how the Chinese feel about themselves. And they do get a bit tired of the West's incessant whining.
It is also how young people here feel when you point fingers at the country in which they feel free and of which they are justifiably proud to be a part of.
You know the old saying, "People in glass houses ...."
How about this: You work on America (it definitely needs some work) - you learn a little more about China (and it definitely needs some work too) - and when you get America all fixed up, if you still have the energy, you can come over here to China and help out. You would be most welcome.
Ann Lee
Nov 1 2011: Brittney, you are picking incidences and generalizing it to the whole culture. "Total lack of human rights" is a large overstatement. Just think about all the cruelty and wierd stuff you hear about in the news in the US. How would you feel if someone generalize those incidents and say that America is not free just because some group of people decided to "leave girls out to exposure"? Tiannamen square? During the Vietnam War there were university student protests all over the country and government used violent forces against peaceful protesting. When is America free? Why don't we just not have government at all? Instead of dwelling on the high and noble theoretical notion of "free," why don't we do something substantial to increase true wellbeing and happiness in other cultures by aiding them to develop in their own direction? Instead of being condescending and judgmental, please understand, respect, and accept cultural and historical differences of another country and culture. Every country deserve a chance to grow as their own and there is no right prototype society for all countries.
- +1
Rong Rong
Nov 5 2011: Look at the bright smile on my face ,please.Then you'll find how stupid and ignorant you are.I'm a Chinese girl and I love my China forever.
- +2
A reply to you,Brittney.(I should have replied earlier)
Hahahahahahah..........not only ignorant but also a little arrogant .
How much do you know about me?How much do you know about my country?Only because you've heard of some uncertain information,you act as if you were the leader of the world.
Be humble,please.What the world need are truth and peace not rumors.
Thank you,though your concern was excess.I'm so proud of my country.Because of her prosperity,the world's eyes begin to fix on her.What an honor!Thank you,my China.Thank you,the world!
Nov 5 2011: I am happy that you are not one of the many Chinese girls left out to die of exposure because of the One Child Policy, no matter how ignorant you think I am.
Nov 6 2011: Brittney,
And what kind of response were you expecting from a young Chinese person?
Something like:
I am happy your mother was not a drug-addled prostitute who gave birth to you with a pre-existant addiction to heroin and HIV/AIDS because of the social vacuum you live in that is called "America?"
The nice little house you live in, your friends, and Justin Beiber concerts, are not indicative of all that your great nation represents. You live in a bubble. Look outside before you criticize something you obviously know very little about.
Clean up your own backyard.
Nov 6 2011: Hi,Thomas
Have you received my best wishes to you and your friend?Remember me?
Anyway I should have replied to her before you,actually I did,but due to the problem of my computer's speed,ouch,I had to send it again and again and again.But no matter how hard it was,I'm trying to wipe up the stupid spots which are ridiculous since I am for the truth and I love my country so much.
Thomas Jones
Nov 6 2011: Hi Hope,
- +3
Yes, I received your message. Thank you.
Don't take Brittney's comments too personally. It would be very difficult for her to have any other view of China than the one she does. Western media is not well known for it's balanced coverage of world affairs. (In one study about 30% of Americans could not find Canada on a map!)
She is young and unlike you knows very little about what goes on outside of the country she was born in.
You will notice, she writes in English, as do you.
Do you think she could respond to you in Pu Tong Hua?
That should tell you a lot right there.
Nov 6 2011: Yes,I desperately hope that one day my mother tongue will be spread worldwide for it is so beautiful.
Brittney and I are all young.I know there are too much for me to learn in this world and I also know when a person is young ,she'll more likely make mistakes.
I wanna send Brittney a precious present---a proverb in my country''知错能改,善莫大焉".It means mistakes are not terrible till you've corrected them.
All that we do is to build a better world and I do believe it's getting better and better.
Bernd Fesel
Nov 6 2011: The privilege and chance of the young has always been to - in all nations - to continue the tradition of former generations, to develop their own traditions and views. in the relation between west and east the youth of today has a new chance to overcome stereotypes and false perceptions - because of the new direct internet media; the distortions of the media can be overcome - the distortions which are existing in both systems. mediated information is always distorted. in former times media coverage in each nation could and sometimes was used to make internal poliy by foreign prejucdices - in the us, in europe and everywhere. this might end by the global media - and such talks on TED.
- +1
Hope and Brittney lets continue the dialogue to overcome accusations without knowledge, but still to have the strength to bear criticism. I love China for its culture and people, I have been doing and teaching KungFu for many years and feel close to the Chinese culture, staid in temples and have chinese friends asf. - still I would critized the human rights policy of China. As I criticize the death peanalty in the US. And of course there is a lot to improve in Europe as well.
Wai Kit Lau
Oct 30 2011: Well, it should take some times. It will take few more generations.
- +2
The leaders of the previous generation still have great influence in the governance. We have to wait till they pass.
Also, the higher level in the government has already become more open but still lower level (province level or below) sticks to the old 'mode' of governance. The reason is the officials in these levels are not yet well educated inaspect of human rights or freedom. Note that when these officials were in their teens and 20s, China was experiencing cultural revolution which had a great influence in their thoughts.
Thomas Jones
Oct 29 2011: WHEN WILL AMERICA BE FREE?
- +2
I just came across a review of one of Edward de Bono's books; here is an excerpt I thought was apropos:
There is no longer any time left to sweeten the message - it has to be stated plainly: Americans have never really understood what "thinking" actually entails.
De Bono clarifies immediately the difference between perception and thinking: perception is data-collection, thinking is what you do with the data. He observes that Americans claim to be the champions of freedom, yet everywhere their thinking is bound up in orthodoxies, naive assumptions and, above all, a fearful lack of practice at seeing the true range of options and alternatives in any given situation. In this sense, Americans, rather smugly, appear to make "free choices" but in reality only choose from the options they already know about. True freedom of choice exists only where perception has fully exposed the range of possible choices and alternatives. – Kim M. Jones (Reviewing Edward de Bono's book, "Free or Unfree?: Are Americans Really Free?)
I would suggest what he is saying is not limited to America but it is certainly evident there.


text:
Silver Mirror Visor for BAMBINO TT Helmet
See more at KASK »
The innovative magnetic visor is patented by KASK and integrated to the helmet thanks to a five magnet system. The total adherence of the visor to the helmet allows for continuous air flow and great aerodynamics. The visor can easily be removed and replaced while riding. Different colors of lenses are available as an option for different light conditions.
Kask helmets are designed to adhere to strict US and EU safety standards. Rapha is not able to guarantee that these will meet all international testing standards.
Team Sky Helmets
Pro-cycling Team Sky has a technical partnership agreement with KASK and the riders have been wearing MOJITO helmets specially adapted to suit their preferences.
"By choosing KASK, Team Sky has made a powerful endorsement of the quality of our helmets and we are looking forward to working with them to secure success for the team,"
– KASK President Angelo Gotti.
And Team Principal, Sir Dave Brailsford echoed that when he said:
"We are pleased to have found a great partner in KASK, supplying top-of-the-line helmets for Team Sky. It's an innovative company with a technology-based line of products and this suits our needs perfectly. We're always looking for competitive advantages using only the best available and always trying to develop the products even further. I believe working with KASK will provide us with another good opportunity to do exactly that."
Please note:
- Discounts are not available on Team Sky Partner products. Usage of discount codes and tokens will be blocked at the checkout for orders containing these items.
- Due to their bulky nature, Team Sky Partner products may ship separately from other Rapha items in your order.
- Shipping lead times on Team Sky Partner components vary, and are likely to exceed the standard Rapha shipping timelines.
- Team Sky Partner products are not eligible for repair under the standard Rapha repair service.
- If you need to return a helmet please make sure that it is returned with the original packaging in saleable condition.
- We are unable to ship this product to following countries: United States, Canada, Australia, Japan

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Butch Jones will serve as the Grand Marshal of the Food City 500 on Sunday at Bristol Motor Speedway. Follow along throughout the day right here with our STORIFY.
Click here for the original story.
Welcome to SECTalk.com
|Welcome to SECTalk.com -- The Home of 6 Straight National Titles!
You are currently accessing our site as a guest which means you can't access all of our features such as social groups, sports betting, and many more. By joining our free community you will have access to all of these great features as well as to participating in our forums, contacting other members, and much more. Registration only takes a minute and SECTalk.com is absolutely free, so please join today!
If you have any problems registering or signing in, please contact us.
Latest Topics
Latest News
Top Bettors
Top High Fived
#Storify: Butch Jones At #FoodCity500
Started by SECTalk.com, Mar 16 2014 08:04 AM
Similar Topics
|Started By
|Last Post Info
Jones Previews Summer Plans in Press Briefing
Started by SECTalk.com, 01 Jul 2015 In: The West → LSU Sports → LSU News
- 0 replies
- 89 views
Jones Takes Part in SEC Summer Teleconference
Started by SECTalk.com, 29 Jun 2015 In: The West → LSU Sports → LSU News
- 0 replies
- 66 views
Fun Times At Butch & Barb's Women's Football 101
Started by SECTalk.com, 30 May 2015 In: The East → Tennessee Sports → Tennessee News
- 0 replies
- 158 views
Temple, Jones, Martin Honored at LABC Banquet
Started by SECTalk.com, 02 May 2015 In: The West → LSU Sports → LSU News
- 0 replies
- 133 views
Chaz Green and Matt Jones Selected on Day Two of NFL Draft
Started by gatoraus, 01 May 2015 In: The East → Florida Sports → Florida News
- 0 replies
- 173 views


text:
Location The hotel is close to the Schlossgarten and Ostseekai and just a few minutes' walk from the city centre. Hotel The 164 rooms and suites of this four-star hotel are well-equipped and there are 11 function rooms for events and banquets for up to 300 guests. The restaurant offers a range of international cuisine and the bar is a popular place to meet in the evening. Events and incentives The Kiel Firth is the gateway to the Baltic States and a stop-off point for cruise ships. It also offers ferry trips to Gothenburg and Oslo, which can be an enriching addition to any conference. Other attractions include the casino, a high ropes course and a golf course.
Steigenberger Conti Hansa at a glance:


text:
Hydropower Companies in Australasia
Terragon Environmental Technologies Inc.
based in Montréal, QUEBEC (CANADA)
Terragon develops and commercializes innovative technologies and practices needed to enable habitats to treat their waste locally and safely in order to recover valuable resources to be reused at the site where waste is generated. Terragon researches and engineers highly innovative waste treatment systems which anyone can operate safely, economically and without special ...
CSRwire - Corporate Social Responsibility Newswire
based in Springfield, MASSACHUSETTS (USA)
CSRwire is the only platform service devoted solely to corporate social responsibility (CSR) issues. CSRwire provides access to a targeted audience of investors, consumers, and employees who consider corporate social responsibility policies and practices in their investment, purchase, and career decisions.
based in Baar, SWITZERLAND
Rittmeyer develops, manufactures and installs equipment, instrumentation and process control system solutions for the water and energy sector. Our portfolio features measuring systems for pressure, level, flow, angle and position as well as turnkey process control systems for the water and energy supply, power plants and process and environmental engineering. Our ...
Aquatic Informatics Inc
based in Vancouver, BRITISH COLUMBIA (CANADA)
Aquatic Informatics provides software solutions that address critical water data management and analysis challenges for the rapidly growing environmental monitoring industry. Aquatic Informatics is focused on providing solutions to a range of different customer groups including federal, state/provincial or local government departments, hydropower operators, mining ...
Capstone Turbine Corporation.
based in Chatsworth, CALIFORNIA (USA)
Capstone Turbine Corporation is the world`s leading producer of low-emission microturbine systems, and was first to market with commercially viable air bearing turbine technology. The company has shipped thousands of Capstone turbines to customers worldwide. These award-winning systems have logged millions of documented runtime operating hours. Capstone is a member of the ...
Ross Valve Mfg Co., Inc.
based in Troy, NEW YORK (USA)
Ross Valve is a manufacturer of automatic control valves for the water, wastewater, industrial and power generation industries. Ross continues to grow its comprehensive product line to serve the following industries throughout the world: Municipal Water, Wastewater, Hydro-Power, District Cooling, Industrial, Fire Fighting.
KISTERS group
based in Aachen, GERMANY
KISTERS is a worldwide growing IT-company founded in 1963 as an engineering agency. Its 450 employees develop resource management systems for water and air, energy, and information systems for environment protection and safety. Professional competence and operational experience with 1.600 customers in 35 countries make KISTERS an internationally sought-after partner. The ...
Hamer Environmental L.P.
based in Mount Vernon, WA, WASHINGTON (USA)
Hamer Environmental, L.P. is a small Washington based, multi-disciplinary environmental consulting firm, whose mission is to provide natural resource consulting services to industry and government. Established in 1992, Hamer Environmental L.P. provides a full range of environmental services.
based in Madrid, SPAIN
Elecnor is one of the main Spanish business groups engaged in the integrated management and promotion of projects and infrastructure development. It is traded on the "Continuous Trading" market of the Spanish Stock Exchange, and since the start of its business activities, it has gradually embarked on a diversification process that currently covers a total of 12 sectors ...
Bourne Energy
based in Malibu, CALIFORNIA (USA)
Stationary and portable wave, ocean current, tidal and river powered systems. Special purpose versions include: watermaker, data center cooling and power, energy regenerator, man-portable, military, river remediation and wastewater treatment.NEWS: In July, Bourne Energy successfully field tested the latest version of its BackPack Power Plant (BPP) portable hydropower ...


text:
"For the Druids' legends are true..."
Ryan Wells:
- Former JBW TV Champion
- Former EWNCW Evolution Champion
- Former Undisputed BWA Grand Champion
(w/ Gillz)
Xavier Hightower:
- Former RTE Tag Team Champion
(w/ Kaige Chamberlain)
To hell with insincerity. Fuck you!
Efed stuff that doesn't matter
1 x IWA World Heavyweight Champion - Malcolm Adonis
Current WWE World Heavyweight Champion - Dean Ambrose
1 x EWNCW Tag Team Champion - Malcolm Adonis w/ Kyojin
Current No 1 Contender to the EWNCW Title - Arthur Lansdale
I lied, it matters.
"Tell me.. what is insane about wanting to create perfection? I'd be crazy not to." - Jarvis Cole


text: Dictionary's new words: Sexting, man cave Published: Aug 30 2012 04:16:39 PM EDT Updated On: Aug 14 2012 02:03:13 PM EDT Small Text Medium Text Large Text Here are the 15 new words added by Merriam-Webster to its 2012 Collegiate Dictionary. 15 / 17 Comments The views expressed are not those of this company or its affiliated companies. Please note by clicking on "Post" you acknowledge that you have read the TERMS OF USE and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Your comments may be used on air. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Desktop and mobile versions of this site use independent comment threads.


text:
All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.
Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
The Rum Diary
Yeah, Bye.
I can't say anything in response to your post besides......BASTARD.
I really want to enjoy a Guinness in Ireland.
You say shark I say hey man, Jaws was never my scene and I don't like Star Wars
As far a all this fighting DC instead of Gus we will never know the the real story. It could have neens Jones pissed at DC post fight it could have been him fucking with people or it could have been Dana trying to push Aug as in claming Gus said he wants to fight in Aug won't do it in Sept so Jones called his bluff and said ok give me DC then
My point is its all spin except to Jones and Dana. I for one don't Carr cuz we get the fight I wanted so I'm happy
not that I drink it often.. but Blue Moon with an Orange slice is pretty much the only way to do it... I don't really drink Blue Moon often but I do take it with the orange slice.. im a straight enjoy kraft beer guy with high alc% or ill pound Bud Lights
glad this fight is finally signed but I wont be happy if Goose dominates and Bones gets an immediate rematch (which I feel is quite possible).. well see what happens with Barao/Dillishaw to determine how this will unfold... but either way I want to see Gus/Jones II to see if Jones/Jackson can learn and adapt to Gus or if Goose is really on the rise to the real deal in which case I for sure want to see Goose/DC
All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.
Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
The Rum Diary
Yeah, Bye.
Daniel Cormier: Jon Jones isn't afraid of anybody
"As hopeful as I was, as excited as I was, I'm still a realist. I knew the chances of it happening weren't very big," Cormier told FOX Sports. "Everything is what you make it. If I'm going to be down in the dumps, sad, disappointed, it's going to have an overall effect in my life. It will have an effect on me, it will have an effect on my family, it will have an effect on my kids, it will have an effect on my friendships. So if I'm able to keep things in perspective, if I'm able to maintain a positive outlook on everything, it makes it easier to deal with."
Jones' reluctance to sign the contract against Gustafsson until two days ago led some fans to assume that he was ducking the rematch in favour of a match-up against Cormier. 'DC' quickly disagreed and stated that Jones is not afraid of anybody and is the champion 'for a reason.'
"Jon Jones isn't afraid of anybody," Cormier said. "I think that's what we kind of miss in this whole 'he's ducking this guy, he's ducking that guy', Jon Jones isn't ducking anybody. He's the champion of the world for a reason and that's because he's good.
"I think it's posturing more than anything. We don't know his compensation package, we don't know what he makes, what he wants to make, we don't know if his decision was based on they didn't sell as many pay-per-views as he wanted. You don't know. There's so many things that go into those types of things."
*Could Cormier have came out of this situation looking any better? Jon needs to watch and learn.
And if you want beef, then bring the ruckus
He's just being nice so Jones doesn't cry too much when its time to sign a contract to fight a 100% Cormier
been out of town the past few days for work - but did i not call this? Fight announced by the end of the weekend just like i said in the beginning pages of this thread. Remember when everyone freaked the fuck out of Dana jumping the gun - AGAIN.
Love all you guys jumping the gun on everything Jones does. And are there still some that dont think Jones was trolling you with that IG video? For real?
Got a lot of soul searching to do. Sorry to everyone I've let down
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)


text:
High Valley Orchard
Assorted Jordan Almonds
8 oz Bag / Item #071330
Take almonds and coat them with smooth sweet candy and you get a tasty Jordan Almond. Perfect for party favors or centerpieces in their fun pastel colors, Jordan almonds are more commonly known as the candy-coated wedding almonds.
Disclaimer: This scientific independent research is provided by Aisle7 and is for informational use only. Puritan provides this information as a service but does not endorse it. Likewise, Aisle7 does not recommend or endorse any specific products.


text:
Top Searches:
Horoscopes |
Salaries |
Washam |
July 22, 2013
Links: Australian Glass and the Pacific Northwest at Museum of Glass
Wsu Master Gardeners of Pierce County at Master Gardener of Pierce County
The Shape of Things by Neil Labute at Dukesbay Theater
All events for today »
Submit an event | All events
This Chilean political thriller offers unique and unexpected plot twists as it unflinchingly examines Third World crime. Young Johnny and the gang to which he belongs are planning to rob a video club that is in reality a front for a money-laundering operation. Unfortunately the robbers take too long and the police arrive before they can escape. The sudden arrival of the media exacerbates the situation and the resourceful bandits pretend to be terrorists. They will free their hostages in exchange for a plane to Cuba. The media begins to paint Johnny as a tragic hero. The serpentine plot takes many turns before reaching it's conclusion.~ Sandra Brennan, All Movie Guide
Rated No Rating .
Visit the official site
Cast: Willy Semler, Armando Araiza, Rodolfo Bravo, Patricia Rivera, Aldo Parodi
Produced by:
Directed by: Gustavo Graef Marino
Written by: Gustavo Graef Marino, Gerardo Cáceres
Running time: 1hr 30min
Opens: Nov 10, 1995 Limited


text:
Feb 3, 2009
Climate Connections Perfect run 400 points
This year the Technobotts3 FLL team had a fairly successful regional heat, they walked away with two trophies: Robot design award and 2nd place overall. With 280 points they had qualified for the UK finals in Loughborough.
Encouraged by the unreliability of their old robot, the team voted for yet another total redesign. Although this may sound a bit risky, they had also done it two years ago before the finals, to great success.
So it came as no great surprise that the first ever practice run with our new robot achieved a score we were aiming for 400! And here's the video of us getting 400 in only 130 seconds.
Well done !!
(Origional post by NXTBoy)
11 comments:
- Jonathan Daudelin said...
That's nice to see someone's been able to get it in practice... I wonder if they or anyone else will be able to do it at a tournament.
- Feb 4, 2009, 1:38:00 AM
- Dave Parker said...
Very nice! Glad to see somebody finally did it and posted a video to prove it was possible. They made raising the house by the lever look almost effortless, which it is not (takes a lot of force actually). If you're not watching carefully you almost miss it. Very cool.
BTW, we found the house's resistance to raising to vary significnatly with different field sets. Hopefully they get a good house at their next tournament!
- Feb 4, 2009, 3:04:00 AM
Nice job, they really made it look easy.
Good luck!
- Feb 4, 2009, 4:33:00 AM
- Sidneys1 said...
That is amazing! I love how they aligned the arrows! That is definitely how I'd do it if I ever decide to go hassenplug!
- Feb 5, 2009, 2:30:00 AM
Sidneys1, what does "if I ever decide to go hassenplug" mean?
- Feb 5, 2009, 9:11:00 AM
Sometimes, I wonder how much of the design came from the kids and how much of it came from the adults.
- Feb 5, 2009, 10:38:00 AM
- Jim Kelly said...
That's an insult to the kids - how do you know they didn't do this themselves? I know plenty of teams who have done some major design work without any help from adults.
- Feb 5, 2009, 10:45:00 AM
Very few adults involved in FLL are any good at building with LEGO. If the design is really good its usually a sign that kids did the work.
The thing about most FLL challenges is that they always appear hard at the start. But if you work hard, or are lucky, you have a eureka moment and it suddenly becomes obvious and easy. My team had an easier time with this challenge than the last.
Weird thing about the arrows is how many teams thought this was an "encourage sensor use" mission. Try as I might I have not found a reasonable way to solve the mission that uses sensors.
If you want to make catty comments about peoples accomplishments it would be less cowardly to use your own name.
- Feb 5, 2009, 12:41:00 PM
- NXTBoy said...
I can assure you that all of the design came from "the kids". Hopefully, others will not decide ot use an identical robot
- Feb 5, 2009, 5:24:00 PM
- tr6scott said...
Very nice! Our team came to the same solution on the arrows, and our state finals were in December. Last year we also had 400 runs in practice but best at tournament was 385, (we missed getting the solar panel on the house). This year we only did 345 in practice and 285 in a tournament (if I remember right). Very nice solution on the house. raising the house is difficult, and you made it look easy. Also pulling the ice core with with using the blue line, we had problems with it binding and not be able to pull it out. There was a few time we got to the core, but did not pull it, or it stuck then released and the bot through it across the table.
We found this year to be much tougher on time. I think this the intent on game designers. Too many 400 last year. I also think that will probably be the last year we see the base in the middle of the board.
Good Luck at the tournament, Good Work!.
- Feb 5, 2009, 9:25:00 PM
- David Levy said...
The kids in the video seem old enough to have done this work all on their own. You really have to give them the benefit of the doubt. Still, "inappropriate FLL adult intervention" is a topic that has rarely if ever been discussed on this blog or accompanying forums.
Therefore I would suggest that future thoughts on this should be made in the FLL General Discussions board in a manner that does not implicate any individual teams.
- Feb 10, 2009, 2:42:00 AM


text:
Chateau Ste. Michelle Cabernet Sauvignon 2010
Cabernet Sauvignon from Columbia Valley, Washington
Winemaker's Notes
Our goal with the Columbia Valley Cabernet is to highlight concentrated Washington red fruit in an accessible style. This is our inviting Cab with plenty of complexity and structure with silky tannins.
It's also very versatile with food--try it with beef, pork or pasta.
Critical Acclaim
Wine & Spirits - "A classic and a real steal, this generous cabernet offers scents of cassis and mocha, adorned with a hint of pine. The flavors are warm and open, its cedar accents lending old-school elegance to generous, dark fruit and slightly furry tannins. A great weeknight red for a smoked pork chop. Best Buy."
Chateau Ste. Michelle Winery
Founded in 1934, Chateau Ste. Michelle is the oldest winery in Washington with some of the most mature vineyards in the Columbia Valley. The winery combines Old World winemaking with New World innovation and is best known for its award-winning Riesling, Chardonnay, Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon.
Chateau Ste. Michelle receives some of the highest accolades in the industry, including "American Winery of the Year" by Wine Enthusiast for 2004 and "2005 Winery of the Year" by Restaurant Wine. In addition, the winery's Eroica Riesling, crafted from a partnership with German winemaker Ernst Loosen, has been named to Wine Spectator's prestigious "Top 100" wines list for five consecutive years.
Chateau Ste. Michelle is one of the few premium wineries in the world with two state-of-the-art wineries, one devoted to whites and another to reds. This dedicated approach to winemaking allows winemaker Bob Bertheau to build winemaking programs to the unique specifications of red and white wines. While all of Chateau Ste. Michelle's vineyards are located on the east side of the Cascade Mountains where the climate is dry and sunny, Bob Bertheau makes the award winning white wines in Woodinville, 15 miles northeast of Seattle. The winery's expansive, 87-acre estate hosts more than 250,000 visitors annually for tours, tastings, dinners and outdoor summer concerts. View all Chateau Ste. Michelle Wines
About Columbia ValleyView a map of Columbia Valley wineries
Columbia Valley is the largest of Washington State's wine growing regions, with almost 11 million acres. It encompasses a number of smaller regions, including Yakima Valley, Walla Walla Valley, Red Mountain and more. The vast area consists of a range of climates, allowing viticulturists to plant a diverse selection of grape varieties. Most wineries plant rows sparsely, which helps the vines survive the harsh winters.
Notable FactsMerlot is the most popular and most planted grape of the area, followed by Cabernet Sauvignon and Chardonnay. Syrah and Riesling are also popular and continue to grow in acreage.
About WashingtonRelated Links:Now the number two producer in the United States, Washington State has also grown in quality.
So how does a state known for rain and coffee produce high quality wines? They plant their grapes on the east side of the Cascade mountains, away from that ever-present rain cloud that sits along the coast. Perhaps wine grapes do well since the sandy loam soils east of the Cascade range give way to an almost desert-like land, saved from drought only by the helpful rivers that run through the area – and the good irrigation systems.
Thinking that the state would do best with typical northern growing grapes like Riesling and Gewurtztraminer, turns out the apple state is well-suited for reds, namely Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon and, more recently, Syrah. Of course, whites have not been forgotten - Washington State Rieslings range from bone-dry to sweet, are well-structured and high quality, and Chardonnay dominates most of the other white plantings, making a range of wines. But the reds of the region, Merlot in particular, have made Washington State a quality force to be reckoned with.
Customer ReviewsSign In to Add Your Review2 }div>2 out of 5 stars
- 5 Stars: 0
- 4 Stars: 0
- 3 Stars: 0
- 2 Stars: 1
- 1 Stars: 0
1 rating, 1 with review
Alcohol By Volume GuideMost wine ranges from 10-16% alcohol by volume. Some varietals tend to have higher (for example Zinfandel and Cabernet Sauvignon) or lower alcohol levels (Pinot Noir and many white varietals), but there is always some variation from producer to producer. Some wine falls outside of this range, for instance Port weighs in closer to 20%, while Muscat and Riesling are usually a bit below 10%.
Wine Style Guide
Light & Fruity
- Red wines that are more fruit-forward and lighter in tannin and body.
Smooth & Supple
- Medium bodied reds that go down easy, with smooth tannins and supple fruit.
Earthy & Spicy
- Wines where earthy and/or spicy dominate the flavors – typically medium to full body.
Big & Bold
- Full bodied wines that have concentrated fruit and are higher in alcohol and/or tannins. Some need age.
- 5 Stars:


text:
RRS Ernest Shackleton Research Ship Webcam
The webcam on RRS Ernest Shackleton is situated in the Conning Tower (see the Virtual Tour for an image of the Conning Tower). It generally looks forward, but if something of particular interest is going on, it may be moved to look aft or to either side. This is a particularly interesting webcam as (when not on long sea passages) the scenery changes regularly. During the Antarctic summer, it is possible to see stunning polar scenery, icebergs and mountains. During the Antarctic winter, the Shackleton undertakes survey work in the North Sea so you may catch a glimpse of an oil or gas platform. It updates approximately once every hour.
March 26, 2013 at 19:00
Images on March 26, 2013
00:00:03 01:00:03 02:00:02 03:00:03 04:00:03
05:00:02 06:00:02 07:00:03 08:00:03 09:00:02
10:00:04 11:00:02 12:00:03 13:00:02 14:00:03
15:00:03 17:00:01 18:00:01 19:00:03 20:00:01
21:00:03 22:00:03 23:00:01
Previous days images will return shortly


text:
AFTER NEWTOWN – Friday, Dec. 21 at 8 – 9 p.m.
WHAT NEXT AFTER NEWTOWN: WHAT OUR COUNTRY AND COMMUNITIES CAN DO – Saturday, Dec. 22, at 1 – 4 p.m.
(Albuquerque, NM) — In conjunction with the tragic events in Newtown Connecticut, New Mexico PBS will air the following two PBS specials, on Friday and Saturday, Dec. 21 and 22.
PBS Special AFTER NEWTOWN Furthers National Conversation About
Recent Tragedies and Related Issues
AFTER NEWTOWN – Friday, 12/21 from 8:00-9:00pm, on New Mexico PBS Ch. 5.1
As the country comes together to grieve the loss of life in Newtown, a national conversation has begun about how to better protect and serve our communities in the face of catastrophe. The questions of how to respond to these tragedies face us all: government at all levels, educators, mental health professionals, the media, and individual Americans.
Continuing PBS' participation in this vital discussion, AFTER NEWTOWN, brings together news and public affairs teams from across PBS in a joint effort to analyze and illuminate the issues surrounding these events. PBS will offer additional insight and analysis with several new programs in the new year, to be announced.
AFTER NEWTOWN, anchored by Gwen Ifill, addresses such issues as access to guns and the politics of gun laws; mental illness in young adults; the science of detecting violent impulses; and how communities react to unspeakable tragedy. The program features in-studio interviews and conversations with regular contributors to WASHINGTON WEEK. Contributions from PBS hallmark news programming PBS NEWSHOUR, FRONTLINE, WASHINGTON WEEK, NEED TO KNOW, and NOVA provide insight and analysis to AFTER NEWTOWN by pooling resources for the special.
WHAT NEXT AFTER NEWTOWN: WHAT OUR COUNTRY AND COMMUNITIES CAN DO – Saturday, Dec. 22 at 1:00 – 4:00 pm, on New Mexico PBS, Ch. 5.1
Explores Community Issues and Potential Solutions
– Public television continues conversation about tragedies and their consequences through in-depth discussions and analysis –
Public television will address community issues and concerns and seek out answers by further delving into key topics stemming from recent events. The three-hour special, from WLIW/WNET, provides an in-depth analysis of issues featuring a variety of perspectives in an effort to spark a nationwide conversation about long-term solutions.
"This is a profoundly difficult topic that has hit our community very close to home," says WNET President and CEO Neal Shapiro." We felt we could play a valuable role in advancing a thoughtful discussion about healing and changing by taking an in-depth look at some of the key issues being discussed in this tragedy's aftermath."
Expanding on the discussions brought forth from the PBS special AFTER NEWTOWN airing on Friday, December 21, WHAT NEXT AFTER NEWTOWNfully investigates the vital concerns raised by the recent tragedies via six half-hour segments. The segments, will address a range of important topics that weigh heavily on the country and look deeply into the individual issues, exploring what they mean for the nation, for families, schools, and communities.
The segment topics include:
- Accessibility of weapons
- Violence in the media
- Talking to children and finding a path tohealing
- School security
- Public policy and mental illness
- The mind of troubled shooters
NEED TO KNOWco-hosts Jeff Greenfield and Maria Hinojosa, and NIGHTLY BUSINESS REPORT co-anchor Susie Gharib will serve as co-anchors for the special event with other prominent newscasters to be announced.
Both of these programs will be live-streamed to national audiences at www.PBS.org/afternewtown and will be available after broadcast.
Viewers can learn more about the issues discussed on PBS programs at the website and are also encouraged to join the national conversation by using the Twitter hashtag #AfterNewtown.
These programs were made possible by public television viewers. For more information, visit: www.PBS.org/afternewtown