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Showing images 1 - 60 of 122Next
Showing images 1 - 60 of 122Next
Italian Sketchbook
This sketchbook served as a travel diary for the Hudson River School landscape painter Sanford Robinson Gifford during his journeys in France, Switzerland, and Italy. In this two-page spread depicting the church of Santa Caterina del Sasso, perched precariously on the edge of a cliff overlooking Lake Maggiore in Italy, Gifford's precise and assured lines exemplify his skills as a draftsman. A practitioner of plein air sketching, the artist used these drawings as preparatory studies for paintings executed later in his studio. The small framed motifs that appear on this and other pages of the sketchbook show his initial experiments with composition.
- Artist: Sanford Robinson Gifford, American, 1823-1880
- Medium: Graphite on tan, medium-weight, slightly textured wove paper
- Dates: 1867-1868
- Dimensions: 5 x 9 x 7/16 in. (12.7 x 22.9 x 1.1 cm) (show scale)
- Signature: [see Description]
- Inscriptions: [see Description]
- Collections:American Art
- Museum Location: This item is not on view
- Exhibitions:
- Accession Number: 17.141
- Credit Line: Gift of Jennie Brownscombe
- Rights Statement: No known copyright restrictions
- Caption: Sanford Robinson Gifford (American, 1823-1880). Italian Sketchbook, 1867-1868. Graphite on tan, medium-weight, slightly textured wove paper, 5 x 9 x 7/16 in. (12.7 x 22.9 x 1.1 cm). Brooklyn Museum, Gift of Jennie Brownscombe, 17.141
- Image:
- Catalogue Description: Bound sketchbook of 38 pages with drawings of Italian landscape subjects and one Catskills, New York subject. Sketchbook bound with cardboard covers lined with tan fabric. Front cover: inscribed in artist's hand, "Maggiore / Como / Sicily / Rome / Genoa / 1868"; inscribed in different hands, "Presented to Jervis McEntee by [Jas?] Gifford [?] Sanford / [?] January 25 1881." and "From Sara McEntee to Geo. H. Hall / in memory of her Brother [and?] Gifford / Sept. [6 or 8?]. 1892. Palenville" [Museum numbered recto and verso pages in succession. All drawings in graphite unless otherwise noted] Inside front cover: small landscape sketch, inscribed in artist's hand, "S R Gifford / Studio Building 51 West 10th. St / New York" p. 1: landscape sketch, inscribed lower left, "Da Civita Lavinia. Oct 30th." p. 2: very sketchy landscape p. 10: small, lightly sketched landscape in rectangle oriented vertically p. 11: (half page) small landscape sketch in rectangle oriented vertically p. 12: (half page) figures and tiny sketch of island with towers in rectangle p. 13: landscape with buildings, inscribed lower right, "Road to Subiaco. Oct 16th. 68." pp. 14-15: panoramic landscape, inscribed bottom of p. 15, "Highlands of Neversink. July 23 1867" p. 17: sketch of Louvre in Paris viewed through trees with carriages in foreground, oriented vertically, inscribed at binding on facing p. 16, "June '68-" p. 18: small landscape sketch (same scene as on facing p. 19) p. 19: landscape sketch in mountains with foreground figures, inscribed lower left, "Val d'Aosta" and "Cormayeur [Courmayeur] July 10 68" and color notations on landscape elements including "g. gray", "[PB?]", "GB" p. 21: sketch of mountain peak in graphite with touches of white wash or chalk, oriented vertically, inscribed lower left "x Glacier" and color notation "green" in foreground p. 22: light sketch of structure atop rocks, oriented vertically p. 23: loose sketch of mountain with cabin & figures in foreground, oriented vertically pp. 24-25: panoramic mountain landscape, inscribed p. 25 lower right, "Col de Monte Moro-" p. 26: loosely sketched mountains, oriented vertically, inscribed lower left, "Val Antasca" p. 27: sketch of mountaintop pp. 28-29: partial sketch of buildings and panorama of island fortress in lake, inscribed p. 29 lower right, "Isla San Julio. Lago d'Orta. Julio [20th or 21st]. 1868." pp. 30-31: vertical landscape sketch, inscribed below "Montenerone?" and horizontal sketch of lakeside town, inscribed bottom of p. 31 "Borgo d'Orta" pp. 32-33: from left to right, vertical sketch of town with boats, small landscape in rectangle, panoramic lakeside landscape, inscribed along bottom of p. 33 "Sassa di Calci. July 30' 68" "Monte Ferro. Laveno from Stresa." "Cesso" p. 34: sketch of boats, two sketches of abbey in rectangle (same motif as p. 35) p. 35: sketch of abbey, inscribed at bottom, "Santa Caterina. Miracolo San Alberto. July 31st 1868." p. 37: view of roof of cathedral, inscribed lower right, "Milan. / July 27th 68." pp. 38-39: panoramic landscape, inscribed p. 38 "Monte Rosa" and "Mischabel" and p. 39 "Sempioni from the Campo Santo of Laveno. July 31st 68." pp. 40-41: vertical sketch of palazzo and of boat and sculpture, inscribed "Rtop brown red. Chim grey + red / Water yel white. / Boats blk white + red + grey / [Curtains?] brown yel."; horizontal panorama of palazzo on lakeside with figures, inscribed bottom of p. 41 "Palanza [Pallanza]. Aug 1st 1868." pp. 42-43: vertical sketch of lakeside village, inscribed below "Vira- / near Magadino / Aug 2nd. 1868. / Yel cupola"; and horizontal landscape sketch across lake, inscribed along bottom of p. 43 "Oria-" "Sassa di Carsognia - / higher and narrower" "[Sommanetti?] - Lago di Lugano - Aug 3rd." pp. 44-45: vertical sketch of lake with boat and mountains, inscribed below "Aug 6th. Sassa di Carsognia"; horizontal landscape sketch, inscribed at bottom p. 45 "Lago di Lecco. Aug 6th 68." pp. 46-47: from left to right, vertical sketch of figures in tunnel through mountain, inscribed at bottom "water" [two times] and "Galleries of the Stelvio Rd / Lake Como. Aug '68"; view of lake; horizontal sketch of tunnel; sketch of lake and outline of buildings pp. 48-49: panoramic landscape with town on lake, inscribed lower right p. 49 "Lago di Como / da San Giovanni / agosto 7th. 1868." pp. 50-51: vertical sketches of tower on rocky coast, inscribed below "La Lanterna / at Genoa / Aug 14th 68" and color notations "tower yel / base + lower walls grey / lower bastion red / tower thicker."; sketch of bastion and sailboats with "sentry", "lower bastion" and "sea"; small sketch of tower in rectangle; loose outline of bastion pp. 52-53: sketch of lakeside town, inscribed at bottom of p. 53 "Genoa. Aug 15th. 68." and artist's notations throughout image including "[1 Shadow?]", "yel", "red", "grey", "wt", "grey stained / with filth + / vegetation" and "white cloth / out of window" pp. 54-55: light sketch of lakeside village, inscribed bottom of p. 55 "Aug 25th 1868 near Chiavari. Riviera de Levante" pp. 56-57: sketch of ruins, inscribed lower right p. 57 "red brick + / grey stone." "Sept 14th. 68. / Taormina / Greek Theater." p. 59: landscape sketch in graphite with touch of white wash of volcano with town on shore, framed in rectangle, inscribed below "Giardini. Sept 14th. x City" pp. 60-61: landscape sketch with buildings and hilltop town. pp. 62-63: from left to right, vertically oriented sketch of mountains, inscribed lower left "Monte Venere."; small sketch of mountains in rectangle; landscape sketch, inscribed top right "mt.1/2 in longer.", in landscape foreground "Cone", and at bottom right "Near Bagaria. Bay of Palermo. Sept 22. 1868." p. 65: landscape with structure on lake shore, inscribed bottom right "Bay of Palermo. Sept 22' 1868." p. 67: sketch of lakeside town with boats and figures, inscribed at bottom "Road to Bagaria near Palermo.", "white clothes.", "yel rock" and on building in foreground "[Gr color?] pp 68-69: from left to right, vertically oriented sketch of ruins with figure in rectangle, inscribed below "Top of arch / same depth as / the blue. / Yel + grey white. / Sea darkest at bottom. / column grey. / Tiles red." and "Santa Rosalia. 23rd Sept. / Monte Pelegrino."; small sketch of ruins and figures in rectangle; horizontally oriented sketch of sailboat; horizontal landscape with boats and figures. pp. 70-71: [upside down (described from artist's orientation)], sketch of ancient arch in ruins with landscape in background, inscribed below on p. 70 "Arch of Nero / Oct 11, 1868"; several figures including one with color notations "yel / white / Blue / white / Red"; another sketch of arch in rectangle in graphite with touches of white wash p. 72: vertical sketch of seated woman p. 73: sketch of arch in ruins, inscribed lower right "Arch of Nero. Oct 11th" p. 74: several small sketches of townscape, seated woman, and landscape in rectangle p. 75: sketch of town in mountains in graphite with touches of white wash, inscribed lower right "Tivoli Oct 14th 68" inside back cover: two small sketches of landscapes in rectangles
- Record Completeness: Best (92%)


text:
Population: About 1,194,665
Climate: Madurai is warm most of the year with maximum temperatures varying from 37°C in summer to 29°C in winter. Minimum temperatures in winter hardly ever fall below 20°C. Rainfall is frequent.
Main Language(s): Tamil and English Time Zone: GMT + 05:30
Phone Area Code: 0452
Best Time To Visit: While it is true that the cooler months between November and February are far more pleasant, Madurai can be visited almost anytime through the year - just skip the summer.
Airport Distance from City Center: 18 kms Taxi Rates from Airport to City: Rs. 300 (Approx)
Eating in Madurai is not drastically different from eating in the rest of Tamil Nadu except for one thing. While a lot of Tamil Nadu will offer staple Tamil food, which is predominantly vegetarian, Madurai offers the palette a lot more. There is some excellent non-vegetarian food available here, which is both varied and delicious. Of course, there is more than enough available to the veggie too.
Muniyandi Vilas
All over the city
Hot Breads
K K Nagar
Hotel Madurai Ashok
Alagarkoil Road
Hotel Supreme
110, West Perumal Maistry St
Hotel Kannimara
256, Nethaji Road
Arya-Bhavan By-Night
East Veli St
Hotel Ashok Bhavan
103, Alagarkoil Road
© Jet Airways (India) Ltd.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
- Joshua Beers
- Dingmans Ferry, PA
- United States
This conversation is closed.
If I had 100% of your genes and 100% of your environmental experience I would be you.
I think that this statement is completely accurate. Do you agree?
Yes? No? Why? Why Not?
The repercussions seem obvious. It's the classic question: Do we really have free will?
In my personal opinion, however alluring "free will" is as a subject of belief, it doesn't exist in any form. Every decision we make, from important to mundane, can be either attributed to genes or environment. What other factor is there? A soul? Did we get to choose that? From my standpoint, I don't see how this CANNOT rule out arguments free will.
As a side note, compatibilists may argue that "choice" IS making decisions based on the given "will" but I would ask them to elaborate. Is that really freedom at all? "Of course we have free will, we have no choice in the matter."
May 8 2011: The question then is if we have 5 identical doors to choose from would the two of us choose the same door every time? If that does not happen we will diverge and are no longer the same.
May 8 2011: I believe "we" would choose the exact same one...
May 12 2011: "We", the identical, are part of a bigger system - the Universe. In that system "we" could not occupy the same space and time while making the doors exercise. That would create divergence that could result in a different choice.
Now... , to make us truly identical (occupying same space and time) you have to have "us" made from bosons. If there is even a single fermion in our structure (we are actually made of them) then we would already have slightly different perspective on reality since we are going to be looking at it from different locations or time interval. Eventually this could lead to divergence.
May 12 2011: Well I was under the impression he was implying this being the case in two separate, identical realities. Because as you state, it is impossible to put two things in the same exact spot. lolMay 12 2011: @ Austin R.
Well..., if the 2 separate realities are" identical" then by definition everything in them would be identical.
May 12 2011: Agreed...
Debra Smith
May 7 2011: No, you'd be my twin and according to Steven Pinker we could still be pretty different because if we were raised together we would have chosen to differeniate. Great question!.
- +2
May 7 2011: Good point, Debra. Though, twins only share about 98% of the same environment throughout their childhood. Plus, as you said, they also may chose to differentiate because they are so alike.May 8 2011: I agree Debra, I agree. I would be your twin AND then (only because there is a joint existence) would differences begin to manifest themselves. But my point is (and I believe now that I did a poor job of articulating it before) all there is to human identity is genes and environment, nothing more. Would you agree...?
May 8 2011: There are times that people act uncharacteristically from both genes and environment.
May 9 2011: I think there are times when they appear to act uncharacteristically (outside the usual people that are in similar situations) , but I think it's only appearance. What influences an individual other than genes/environment?May 9 2011: To your comment below Joshua (it wouldn't let me enter it in the proper place).
You are right. As the question is defined this too would be part of environment.May 8 2011: Not quite Joshua, even in utero, twins can be subject to different amounts of nutrition. Scientists are starting to have much greater focus on this stage of life because it can have great influences through nutrition (one twin could have had a bette blood supply and therefore better nutrition or have implanted in a less advantageous place on the uterine wall. In utero hormonal influences can also be great.
May 9 2011: Isn't that just a very intricate, complicated environmental factor though? In other words, if that's happening we are only "twins" in the colloquial sense of the word, but we have failed to be twins in the 100% purest sense.May 9 2011: "What influences an individual other than genes/environment?"
Mood for one, and that can change despite nature/nurture.
May 9 2011: To me, mood seems like a great example of something that is the byproduct of natural disposition ("genes") and a given situation ("environment'). No...?May 9 2011: It's a question of definition, What is 'you' as opposed to 'me' ?, what is 'will' and what is it free from?
Try to imagine all that is floating through your mind right now, are you aware of all of it or is your awareness limited? Are you the limited awareness or are you the whole body, or something more or something less? You might stretch 'you' even further to include multitudes.
So defining 'you' & 'me' becomes a question of choosing a point of view or frame of reference. Seen through the widest frame possible you and me are parts of the same 'thing' in a similar way a finger and a toe can be parts of the same body...
I think that our limited awareness creates the illusion of the self as a survival mechanism which has evolved as a way to prioritize needs and methods of fulfillment. Once you let go of your attachments you begin to realize that we are all one groovy happening. Then the question of you vs. me becomes simply a question for linguistics..
May 9 2011: Ahhhh! Thank you for that Brandur, truly interesting, intriguing thought indeed! I would have to say that the "you" I am referring to is "your" individual identity. Which I guess you might disagree with...? But you must recognize your cognitive individuality at some level, correct?May 9 2011: Individually we are all just pieces of us collectively.
I think the subconscious is where we lose the limits of awareness.
May 9 2011: I agree, it would seem to me that the very definition individuals is a piece of a collective of some sort.
Please expand on that second sentence if you would, I didn't quite follow you...
May 9 2011: At a certain point into the subconscious we lose our individualism. We become the same as others, until the point of being a species, one being made of many. Or there is at least an intermingling of minds in the parallels of subconscious, some parts being indistinguishable from individuals.May 9 2011: Interesting, I would agree that the further the subconscious level, the more alike we all are (due to shared desires/innate "drives")
John Gird
May 8 2011: Joshua, this is one of those Pandora box type discussions. The philosophy, AI and neurobiology guys who get into this get so complex so fast that when I was slogging my way through a single paper, it involved reading several books just to pick up the basic argument.
- +1
The existence of qualia, zombies and quantum effects in color perception all seem to be involved, and I am going to have to admit my continuing inability to even have a decent opinion on this stuff.
But anyway, this wont get in the way of my readiness to deliver one :D. Consider a quick reversal of the argument. Is it possible to replicate 100% of any genetic information, and 100% of any environmental experience? As I understand it, current biological and physical sciences sciences say no to both. If not, is any form of determinism possible? If nothing is truly replicable, then every circumstance, action and decision must be unique. From this you can deduce that it is impossible to predict any decision until the decider has made it, which sounds quite a lot like free will to me.
May 8 2011: John, I am disappointed to know that this is such a "high brow" issue, only because I am severely ignorant when it comes to comprehending such ivory tower content like "quantum effects." Perhaps this is simply my said ignorance talking, but to me it doesn't seem like it needs to be a very complex issue. While I agree that in practical terms we could never replicate 100% genes or environment, replication isn't really the point I had in mind. I simply think that one has to admit that (despite being a rather unpalatable idea) they are simply the byproduct of genes and environment. Nothing more, nothing less. As much as you may dislike another person, think you are better than them...in the end, I think, you are essentially "random."
May 9 2011: Joshua, when explained in this manner I understand your statement better. I am not versed on much of science and quantum physics but I have made it a personal quest of mine to understand such questions on a spiritual plane. Therefore, I would say that we are shaped by or genres and environment but like john said there are very important factors that are clearly not in our control. And, if that be the case we clearly are missing possibly huge chunks to your generalization. If we were to have such ability we would have to be able control all of creation (obviously including time and space). To get an exact replicate you would have to repeat time in a hybrid time bubble that could be manipulated without disturbing what already is existing and somehow incorporate those elements all at once....
Maybe it is more beneficial for us, in the constraint of time, to enjoy our "free will" in our fixed condition. Lol
May 9 2011: "...there are very important factors that are clearly not in our control."
Lloyd, this is my point exactly, there are so many complicated things that play into who we are, BUT all of them are outside of our control. Time, location, relationships, menial occurrences (all I would put under "environment") all with genetics, brain chemistry (all I would just put under "genes"), etc. It all comes together at such a fascinatingly intricate level to form you. YET it is all out of our control, it may seem like you have control but that is just part of the process in and of itself. All those factors just run on themselves and that's what we deem choice and consequently change in/for the individual.
Your last point, is practically a new topic altogether! I tend to agree with you, we are probably a lot more happy enjoying our "free will" (which is probably why we are subconsciously "wired" to think so!).May 7 2011: Are you implying an alternate world?
Because if it is in this world, and it still behaves normally, then you cannot occupy the same space I do, so you will see things differently and your world map would definitely differ from mine.
So, unless I don't exist, you cannot be me. And if I don't exist, you still cannot be me, because you are still you.
Joshua Beers
May 8 2011: Robertson, while that does make sense, this was proposed as a hypothetical. The point I was trying to make (and see if it has any holes in it) was that an individual is simply an amalgamation of complicated genes and environmental influence, nothing more.
- +1
May 8 2011: Well, yes.It does make sense then. If you had 100 percent of my DNA and environmental experience, you should be me.
I was wondering though if mind altering substances could change that. Say, if you get drunk, do your thoughts become random? If they do then that could cause a deviation from your 'path' right?
May 8 2011: Ahhh interesting thought! (With many repercussions) I also have had similar thoughts about blacking out while drunk, and how memory influences identity. In my opinion, while it definitely makes things a bit more complicated, "determinism" still stands. Let's take being drunk. The thoughts you are having while intoxicated become increasingly bizarre and disconnected from your usual outward personality with each passing drink. But they are not a completely new identity. It's not like you are getting those thoughts from a new source. I am certainly no neurologist, but I imagine your brain is undergoing changes while drunk (this is certainly true of hardcore narcotics I would think). And so this is just another layer of intricacy to add to the the genes/environment amalgam.May 9 2011: I was just looking at George Spilkov's argument with the five doors. You wouldn't necessarily place any thought behind it. If I had five identical doors in front of me and there were no way of reasoning my way out of this problem, I would probably close my eyes and choose a door at random.
May 9 2011: Right, but whatever made "you" decide to close your eyes and randomly choose would be something influenced from genes/environment. I think those types of situations seem so difficult to think they are determined because their influencing factors would be so deep and often times (like in this example) deemed unimportant by us. But what is the alternative? That you somehow turned off you brain and had some unbiased force control your hands as you covered your eyes with one and pointed with the other?May 10 2011: No, because that external 'unbiased force' is probably determined. But I think closing your eyes and depriving yourself of some external stimuli should change some things.
I was also thinking that if we pursue your argument to it's extreme, a corollary should be that our date, time, and second of death are determined. Now if only there was a way to calculate that.
May 10 2011: A similar argument that interests me would be: Is life an illusion? Is there any real difference between animate and inanimate matter? If the Universe is simply a mechanism, along with everything in it, we are no different from the helium gases of stars and the water we drink.
Personally I don't agree, but interesting question nevertheless.May 10 2011: @ Robertson, must admit, I didn't quite get your first point there...it would add to the "perceived randomness" of the choice?...As for your second point, that is a very intriguing thought indeed. In this frame of thinking, it is amazing to think how your life is moving together into one culminating moment: it's end. Quite incredible to think about.
@Austin, such questions seem to rely on a good deal of personal, respective introspection (I don't think this means that we can't move closer to what we deem "truth," it just means it is a highly difficult process.) Personally, the more I think, the more it has become increasingly obvious to me that the lives we all lead are very deep, complex, interwoven illusions. I don't know anything about animate/inanimate matter, but it seems to me that, contrary to what we are innately "programmed" to think, we are not esoteric beings, we are not detached from nature with respective purposes that transcend the boundaries of the material world. In actuality, we are every bit a part of the "natural" world as "the water we drink."
Austin R
May 7 2011: Hi Joshua,
- +1
Interesting question, but it doesn't make sense.
If you had 100% of someone else's genes and environmental exposure then "you" wouldn't exist. You wouldn't be them, because the term "you" relates to your unique genetic composition and environment.
Now, regarding "free will". We are all deterministic to certain extent. How do I know this? Well, we all have specific personalities. Our personalities, by definition, restrict how we behave. But, this does not mean we do not have any "free will", we still choose to do what we wish, even though these choices are the product of our personality and environment.
May 8 2011: Hi Austin,
Completely agree, the "you" becomes useless, because under this circumstance...who knows maybe "I" am "you" under these rules right now hahaha....
If you don't mind, could you please further explain your second point. "we still choose to do what we wish, even though these choices are the product of our personality and environment." While I agree that this does happen (I feel like I chose to write a response to this post for example), I think the mistake comes in actually deeming this as freedom, for if it is constricted to personality and environment, although I perceive I am making a choice, in actuality I have no control...
May 9 2011: "(I feel like I chose to write a response to this post for example)"
"although I perceive I am making a choice, in actuality I have no control..."
You did choose to write the response-- it is no illusion. Just because our choices are dependent on our personalities and can be predicted, does not mean they are not real choices. Do you disagree?
Joshua Beers
May 9 2011: Well this certainly depends on how you categorize the "real" part of "real choices." It's a choice all right. But as for it being "real," well that depends. To me, a "real" choice would have to be a completely unbiased decision. But this seems impossible, so maybe there is no such thing as a "real" choice (which to me is what freedom would be). Which would mean the problem is categorizing "regular" choice as being equated to freedom. When in actuality you could never be free (ability to make unbiased, "pure" decisions) ,yet still have choice (ability to "make", more like adhere to, completely influenced decisions??? Does that make any sense at all??? hahaha I hope so, sorry if it doesn't...May 9 2011: Well, speaking about the sense of "you", self-consciousness, i want to draw your attention to the fact that there's no constant and solid "me", we all exist of different, emm.. let's call it "sub-personalities", specialized on adaptation in different environmental conditions. I believe, there's no such thing like "soul"(it's non-scientific, mystic) and out mental processes are created by out physiology and effect each other mutually.
- +1
Our organism does not have qualitative differences from other organisms, only quantitive differences. We have eyes, ears and so on like many other animals.
Our "basic self-consciousness" is similar to other peoples'. It's similar even to other species of animals. (This basic thing may have slight differences from organism to organism, i think, due to genetic and environmental experience differences of particular individuals. But the basic principle is all the same)
I'm very sorry i can't explain and prove that idea in 1500 characters and foreign language. It requires a background of knowledge of neuroscience, psychophysiology and processes of evolution.
May 9 2011: Hey Constantine, That is a very interesting, important thing to note: that individuals are not static in nature. I would tend to agree, that we are more an amalgam of given environmental situations/effects constantly "doubling over" on themselves. I understand that it is a hard idea to flush out in such a short way (especially if it's a foreign language too!), but I appreciate these initial thoughts/ assertions nonetheless!
May 9 2011: Joshua,
"To me, a "real" choice would have to be a completely unbiased decision. But this seems impossible, so maybe there is no such thing as a "real" choice (which to me is what freedom would be)."
Yes, I agree it is impossible. If we made completely unbiased decisions we would all be the same person! There would be no unique influence going into any of our decisions-- what would separate us from one another?
"Our organism does not have qualitative differences from other organisms, only quantitative..."
What species of animals have the capacity for conceptual thinking? Humans are the only species I am aware of who can think in abstract terms.May 9 2011: Austin, Do you then agree with the rest? ...that true freedom is then impossible?
May 9 2011: YesMay 9 2011: While I agree, I tend to find it both humbling and disheartening at the same time. What do you think Austin, what are the personal ramifications of believing this for you?May 17 2011: Ok so what you are seeking to prove or disprove is environment + genetics = humanity - free will. The only thing I can think of to defend free will is we can never take in all environmental stimulation at a given time so we select what environment we let in our brain. Imagine your on a bus with a conversation going on behind you and in front of you. Genetically you are just as capable of eves dropping on either one of them, but the mind can not make sense of both of them. So you choose what information from the external you pay attention to, or you ignore both of them and day dream out the window. Maybe this is where free will is decide, choosing to let some information in while leaving some out.May 14 2011: Hi Joshua,
The question of free will is one that has puzzled me for a long while. As far as I can tell, the fundamental problem seems to be defining what free will even is. Surely we can think of examples of determinism (will without freedom) as well as examples of randomness (freedom without will). But what in the world is "free will" anyway, never mind whether or not it exists?
I had a great conversation with my brother about this topic a year ago, and his insight went something like this: "If you had `God-vision' and could see inside the working mind of another human being, what would their free will look like? I have no idea." If we cannot even define what free will is, it's quite pointless to debate its existence.
On a practical note, we know for certain that many of our thoughts we attribute as "original" are actually nothing more than re-mixes of things we've experienced before. For an interesting example of this, watch this YouTube video on a prank pulled on a pair of advertising artists:
Likewise, I'm an amateur inventor, and one of the most helpful tricks I use to invent a mechanical solution to some problem is to stare at a pile of mechanical parts and components, looking for shapes to trigger ideas in my mind. Even if my final design bears little likeness to the parts that triggered the thought, it's the initial triggering of the idea that is so important to getting the process started. As Thomas Edison once quipped "To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk." Ideas that might *feel* completely original to me are so heavily influenced by my experiences (and perhaps genetics too) that I'm inclined to think of myself as a random re-mixer of ideas.May 14 2011: A little off topic but definitely related, the issue of Fate. How many people believe in fate? I use to believe but no longer do. I get very irritated when I hear the expression "things happen for a reason." I think anyone who says this or believes this should be grateful as it illustrates that that person has been fortunate to live a privileged life.
I say this because many people have to bear many unfortunate burdens. Do you think a person who is in jail for life for something they did not do had that happen to them for a reason? Does a child who cries to sleep at night from hunger pains have that happen to them for a reason? I think believing in fate is the result of living a privileged life. Thoughts??May 14 2011: By definition, you are right. You would be me.
Concerning free will: depends on your definition.
To me, free will is the idea the complex entity has that he/she/it can intentionally influence the environment.
(See Dennet 'freedom evolves')
Or it can be a juridical concept to defend our system of law (and punishment).
You seem to forget that a sufficiently complex system can shut of external influences and work on its own... as genes unfold into a conscious being, so free will arises, and the creature obtains more and more of it as it evolves.
Even in deterministic systems, one can evolve something we call free will.
Free will must be seen as the relationship the agent has towards it's environment.
If you were me, you would be me as an agent, and behaving as me (as you would be me) acting as free as I act now (in the exact same matter, by your definition)
If you say that that is not free will, let us use another term to define what I described...
I think the whole debate on whether or not free will exists should be turned around to
"what concept of 'free will' can we use in our practical life" and then start from there.May 14 2011: No. As chaos theory dictates, even you control every variable, you cannot predict thee course a body will take. All you'll be doing is narrowing the possibilities to increase the chances that this clone is somewhat like you.
May 14 2011: Sorry I'm not familiar with the idiosyncrasies of chaos theory, could you please tell me where the divergence would come from?..."chaos"???
May 14 2011: @ Elizabeth
1) Chaos theory is a deterministic theory and says something about predictability.
2) Joshua Claimed we did know the initial state perfectly (100% the same), in such event, chaos theory is 100% predictable (at least in principle, as it might be NP or NP-Complete)
@ Joshua
the divergence comes from the measurement problem:
measurement is always inaccurate (can be but a tiny fraction), and we predict from our measurements.
In chaos theory, a small difference (the inaccuracy here) can lead (sometimes very fast) to big differences further down in time... making it unpredictable (even though the system in chaos theory is deterministic)
Chaos is, in chaos-theory, more or less defined by the degree of entropy (chaos increases as entropy increases)
May 14 2011: Chris,
I really like this answer. I think purely deterministic models rely to heavily on the rational scientific model which is increasingly being shown as having limitations. IMO, the scientific method is only a perspective, a very useful perspective, but just a perspective nonetheless.
I love this: "measurement is always inaccurate (can be but a tiny fraction), and we predict from our measurements."May 14 2011: I keep seeing this "IMO" what does it mean?May 15 2011: In my opinion
Austin R
May 15 2011: Mathew,
- +1
Chris was agreeing that because we knew 100% of the initial conditions that the two worlds won't diverge. I thought you disagreed with this? Why do you like this answer?May 20 2011: I really liked it because he seems to agree with both of us. He does claim that Chaos theory is ideally deterministic but that our limitations do not allow us to accurately predict. I think this exemplifies the point I have been trying to make, that yeah the environment does impact us and to some extent "Control" us, but not 100%.May 13 2011: We are free to have a Free Will but only when the Will of the bigger powers does not collide with ours.
Some examples: defying the will of the country could lead to diffident choices for us; defying the will of the boss could lead to unemployment and poverty; etc.
When 2 wills collide they inevitably emerge changed.
My free will (and other's too) is very Freudian and Maslowian (meaning selfish, sexual, oriented towards maximising pleasure and minimizing pain, seeking attention, recognition, satisfaction,etc). We begin to restrict our Free Will in our heads before it even gets out, so, we often confuse what our free will really is.
If we are given unlimited power our True Free Will will emerge making us corrupt unlimitedly.
But is it really a Free Will if it is more or less the same with every one of us? Almost, as if, it is a built-in program of a sort. The difference in choices emerges from the way we prioritise what is good for us (what makes us feel good). As a result we may choose to suffer in one way to gain satisfaction in a different way.
However if we had "Freedom of will" our ideal choice would be not to suffer and to gain satisfaction.May 12 2011: So what of free will? I hold the position that free will does exist. Especially in circumstances of future change. When I look at situations that are occurring and take action to sway the outcome that is free will in action.
May 13 2011: Thomas, with all due respect, I feel like you have yet to make the full case for truly random events let alone translating those repercussions into full blown free will. (I apologize for what what may be my inability to "connect the dots.")
"When I look at situations that are occurring and take action to sway the outcome that is free will in action."
Where do you think the decision to do that came from?
May 13 2011: Regardless of where the decision comes from the ability to choose the direction in which you go is free will.
May 13 2011: Thomas,
I think that simply states (which is usually very hard to do) exactly what I was trying to get across. Thank you.May 14 2011: @Thomas
That seems to me, to be the very definition of compatiblism. Whose sole, major criticism is that while correct in fundamental rationale, it is incorrect in labelling its result "free will."May 10 2011: I realize my comment below is way to abstract so I will attempt to put it in a more practical application.
We are the creators of the experiences in the world, think of social institutions and belief systems like culture, religion, education etc . . These large social processes DO have a tremendous effect on our actions and set the parameters under which action is taken. However, these processes are essentially created by us, they have formed out of our collective interaction. It is our actions and collective interactions that essentially create these processes. IMO they can thus never fully control behavior. Think Frankenstein. The scientist created him and Frankenstein eventually became more powerful then scientist himself, even threatening his life. Frankenstein severely impacted the scientists daily life and the choices he had to make but it did not take away his ability to choose.
Free will is the "X Factor," the essential, infinite quality of existence. As social influences increase and effect us more and more they can never be total in scope as they are ultimately created by us. As said below, I think some people are in more of a position to exercise free will then others. In order to truly make a choice you need to be fully aware of the influences acting on you. Some people may be totally ignorant to these influences (I envy them and their convictions) and others may understand these influences and stand in a position to act (for these individuals the burden is heavy as they are the ones who can implement change and who can not plead ignorance).
Getting back to your original question, you are right if a person had 100% the same genes and 100% the same experiences then yes you would be them because that is saying that they made 100% of the same choices. But, they would only be them up until this specific moment. Going forward, I would argue, they would diverge as they make different choices. Some people would diverge more then others.
May 10 2011: "Going forward, I would argue, they would diverge as they make different choices. Some people would diverge more then others."
What variable would allow them to diverge? The environment + genetics = the summation of our choices; what would cause anything to change if everything is exactly the same? The only possibility is an uncaused, completely unbiased event that could theoretically alter the environment and/or genetics for one of them and not the other -- which I don't see happening.
May 10 2011: I am suggesting that their exists an "X Factor" called Free Will. That there is something that is unmeasurable and to a certain degree chaotic and unpredictable.
Where is the proof for this? Just think about it, you can do anything you want right now, go ahead do something that is unpredictable. Now you may do something unpredicted right now and say it is the result of my input or you can not do something unpredictable and claim that is the result of previous conditioning. You are right in both cases. But you are faced with a choice none the less and you could potentially do either or. My input merely expanded the possibilities, your action will be determined by your choice which will further expand possibilities in the world.
Choices are definitely conditioned my experiences and inputs but are not just determined as a sum of all events.
You are claiming that you could hypothetically create a computer that monitored and calculated all human action and thus accurately predict behavior? I'm not saying I'm right but that believing everything is determined is depressing and defeatist. I would much rather be wrong and choose to act in honest and righteous ways then to simply believe it is all determined and not care about the impact of my decisions on this earth.
May 11 2011: "Where is the proof for this? Just think about it, you can do anything you want right now, go ahead do something that is unpredictable....you are faced with a choice none the less and you could potentially do either or"
I think that is the mistake. You can't (I believe) do just anything You can only do what your brain is ready to do at the moment you do it. And your brain will be ready to do it based on its state at that moment, and that will be based on all sorts of things like the setting, your mood, your degree of tiredness, the current thoughts in mind, etc. But I can't gather together all those factors and then take credit for what my brain did, claiming "I" made a choice, or that "I" was free to do otherwise.
It seems like there is an X Factor/Free Will because we are not consciously aware of the mechanism by which the brain makes its decisions, just like it seems like the sun moves across the sky when in fact it is the Earth turning.May 10 2011: "The environment + genetics = the summation of our choices; what would cause anything to change if everything is exactly the same? "
Agreed, this is why I would argue they would be the same up until this point. After this point different choices would = different environment and possibly genetics (depending on substance use).
May 10 2011: Ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding... Let's clarify.
Say hypothetically we both had the 100% of the same genetics and 100% of the same environment. You are saying this will change (we will diverge, as you phrased it)in the future? If we are both in the exact same situation how might they diverge? Any possible change in input for either of us will be the same since our environments are congruent. I'm sorry if I'm mistaking what you're saying.


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Well that's good at least.
The Aero+ theme isn't his, that's one of his favorites. I do agree it's a pretty good theme though.
As for 2.3, I've already commented on it before it was released. YES!
Now I can stop hating him for being so damn talented
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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:46
Tweaked BG Colors
New Menu Icon
Reduced text size of buttons, comboboxes, toggle buttons, check buttons and radio buttons
Fixed radio buttons not having transparent background
Server Browser, Popup Browser, In-Game Browser, Settings, Small Mode, Debug Window:
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Grid View:
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Friends List:
Squared off active tab corner
Added hover effect
Adjusted avatar + text positioning
Repositioned invite accept/ignore/block text
Fixed Link Check Page invisible text
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You're an absolute champion.
I'm looking forward to 2.4 when you get time >.< As others have observed, you have just made this better with each release (a noteworthy achievement indeed).
Was looking through some of your other deviations. I particularly love the Aero+ theme. If ever you choose to take a swipe at W8 in the same fashion, make sure you tell me so I can install it
Did you make the banner for the steam group or is it auto generated?
Finally installed this skin on Windows 8. Loving it so much.
The Aero+ theme isn't his, that's one of his favorites. I do agree it's a pretty good theme though.
As for 2.3, I've already commented on it before it was released. YES!
While I'm not a big fan of Windows 8 / Metro I really think that this is the best steam skin out there, you really created a pleasant to look at client and everything just fits perfectly. It's amazing!
Great work on the skin BoneyardBrew and keep it up!
Well that's good at least.
Now I can stop hating him for being so damn talented
Posted 19 November 2012 - 22:04
Posted 19 November 2012 - 22:19
How do I apply this theme? just copy & replace everything into the Steam Directory?
Posted 20 November 2012 - 00:20
Be sure that it extracts to its own directory (Windows 8 - 2.5) and then put it in the skins folder located in Steam's root directory. Once that's done go to Settings - Interface from Steam and select the skin from the drop-down menu.
Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:31
Thank you very much . Great theme by the way. I remember using it yonks ago, and it's changed quite a bit since then
looks great, thanks!
Just remember those of us that are here with you now when you start working for Valve


text:
- Anna Kazcorowska
- Oslo
- Norway
This conversation is closed.
What were you favourite bands when you were a kid or a teenager? What do you think that says about you and your community?
The TEDsters were born in different eras, different places all over the world.
What music you chose, why you do it and what that expresses says a lot about the person, the times, the moral paradigm and political landscape.
Music has always been an integral part of my life. I've been a goth, an emo, a rock-girl, a punk and more, both listening and making music, depending on the period. Some bands that have influenced me are still a good reference, some of them are just a sentimental insight.
Back to the question - what music did you chose when you were young and what do you think it says about the times, the community you grew up in and you yourself, as a person?
In other words - some like Iron Maiden, some like U2, some like other bands, some like everything, some do not. Why do you think that is?
All replies and comments are welcome.
Aug 3 2013: I was a teenager in Seattle Washington during the grunge rock craze. Lots of kids there were really into Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, Mudhoney, Soundgarden, Temple of the Dog and Mother Love Bone. These were a few of the favorites in my peer group. We really identified with this sound in large part because it was local and the band members were our age or a little older. Lyrics often included local references and when commentators wondered about the 'darkness' of the sound we could laugh at their ignorance of the effects of living in a climate with 10 months of cloudy weather a year. A quick Internet search says Seattle averages 58 sunny days per year. Lots of my friends were also into Jimi Hendrix, who grew up in Seattle, and is a local icon. It was a source of pride that all this amazing music was being born in our hometown. I still love Nirvana and it never ceases to bring back the nostalgia and 'darkness' (I mean that literally) of my youth. After living in sunny Los Angeles for the last decade, I know I can never move back to cloudy weather.Jul 9 2013: Anna, I can write pages on that ! :)
In the late sixties we did not have a TV in home, a Philips radio filled my musical space. I wasn't pampered at all and left alone so my horizon of music used to be quite wide where Indian and Western shined with equal brightness.
I think I heard Joan Baez and Bob Dylan when I was 7 or 8 years old, though it was only much later their music sunk in me, thanks to my big sister. Cultural difference? Not sure, but Indian music had a rich tradition of her own so it engaged part of my attention. A lone boy of a Hindu brahmin family listening to international music at that time was, sort of, rare.
The first band ever to be admired by me was the Beatles, of course. By then my dad bought an HMV record player - I still remember the glossy cover of the EP for Abbey Road.
The times they are a changin. By my early teens my city saw a violent political unrest fashioned after the Chinese uprising. My first cigarette and first kiss happened while I saw bullet ridden dead bodies floating in the city canals. This, Pete Segar and Jimmy Hendrix were a heady mix for a 15 year old.
But it was also when Ravi Shankar performed in Calcutta. I have never seen music more ecstatic and visceral. Sweat dripping from handsome face, his hand moving fast over the sitar, Ravi Shankar kept us transfixed. 'God, looks like he is making love to the sitar' said my cousin and I thought 'whatever'. :)
Indian classical was there. Bollywood was there with incredible bell bottomed trouser daunting heroes chasing nubile beauties in garden rain. And there was Tagore, sublime with Bengali mysticism. They shaped my taste too.
However, it will be later that Osibisa would tour my city and I would go off in a tangent with Manu Dibango's Soul Makossa.
Thanks for reminding me to go that far back. :)
It says therefore that I was a maverick and my community endured me.
Jul 9 2013: You've just written a whole page, thanks, Pabitra!
It's good to know where we come from and where we're going, as they say :)Aug 8 2013: The time is running out but before I see the tiny black clock beside this conversation saying that it's closed, I'd like to thank everybody for sharing bits of their more or less distant youth.Aug 8 2013: Interesting question.
The only 'A' I ever got on an English essay was 'Tastes in music' so it's a topic close to my heart.
So let's see...
Older brother's records - Pink Floyd, The Human League, Queen, and ... er... Little Jimmy Osmond.
Then tapes from pals in school - They Might Be Giants 'Flood' and REM 'Out of time' being highlights.
Bands that were big that I didn't get into in my teens but love now - The Smiths, The Pixies and ... er... Take That!
Bands that I liked then but don't like now, or at least the music doesn't grab me as much - Pearl Jam, The Wedding Present (Hit Parade album only really I guess), and ... er... Bros. :-)
Bands that rocked then and still rock - Nirvana, Led Zeppelin, Joni Mitchell, Jimi Hendrix.
Underground bands that moved the goalposts - Helmet, Deftones, Slint.
Bigger underground(ish) bands I adore - Dinosaur Jr, My Bloody Valentine, The Cure.
Irish Trad Folk which I got into in my late 20's/early 30's - Planxty, The Bothy Band, Irvine/Brady, The Pogues.
Live concerts that changed my mind - Bela Fleck and the Flecktones, Burt Bacharach, Ben Frost + the Krakow Symphony Orchestra, Gorecki's 3rd Symphony, Placebo, Shellac.
What does all this say?
I'm 38 now.
I look at kids today and see them as hopeful/hopeless little puppies. Mostly not as wise as they will be.
We had Michael Jackson in the 80's. His videos on TV were cultural earthquakes. What's as good these days?
When I was turning 20 Kurt Cobain died. Rock was great in the early 90's. It comes in waves.
No Youtube. X Factor and other artist crushing viruses weren't around then. VHS tapes of bands you care about were priceless items. Staying in on a Friday night to watch 'The Word'.
Tapes that have Bach, followed by John Coltrane, followed by Lou Reed, followed by Bjork, followed by Mastadon. That's my cup of tea.
Variety, quality, synapse joining riffs/heart/poetry made music.
Music makes the people come together.
And musicians do stuff better.
Aug 8 2013: "Music makes the people come together. "
...unexpected number of comments in this conversation show that yes, it does :)Aug 4 2013: What a great topic, Anna!
I grew up in Seattle and started listening to music in the early 80's, but I never had money to buy tapes, so I listened to the radio and made my own mix-tapes. That was one of my favorite pass times!
I came across one recently which included Depeche Mode, Duran Duran, Nik Kershaw, The Pixies...
The first tape I ever bought was by Men Without Hats.
The kind of music I listened to was very different than what my friends listened to, which was predominantly Bon Jovi, Metallica, Guns & Roses.
Just before I moved to Holland in the early 90's, the Grunge scene hit Seattle, of which I personally was not a fan. It certainly says something about my community though. The Grunge style carried through to clothing and even a certain type of mentality, which did not fit with mine at all.
Aug 4 2013: Thanks, Lizanne, great to see a musician here!
Money was scarce in my case as well, the first tapes I got were bootlegs. Luckily, I was in a community in Gdansk from 15 years on where we exchanged our collections, discussed the contents.
The first ever tape (and then - even a video) that I laid my hands on was a gift from my father. Queen - Livw at Wembley. I still love Queen but when my own music interests come, grunge was on the list. The feelings of anger, anguish, teenage pain expressed in this music were definitely relatable. Some songs by Alice in Chains are still on my long and diverse playing list (I managed to narrow the selection down to 5000 songs, but chosing them was hard), but my favourites are the strong ones, not the pro-depressive ones. Then those interests began to expand and encompass genres, bands and performers of all sorts and of somewhat conflucting nature - from the extremely rough to the most poetic. Beauty is in the ear of the listener, as I said before. At one point in life I could go to a Temple of Goths dance party on a friday, sing in a choir on a sunday while playing classical lullabies at home in between... And listening to a lot more on a mp3-player while on my way home, to choir or party. I must say that I don't have any particular musical identity now.
Thanks for mentioning Depeche Mode, I know most of their songs by heart.
How would you classify the music the you make and why do you think you chose this particular type?
Aug 4 2013: I'm in the same boat - my taste in music has broadened considerably, as a great admirer of music in general, like you, there's no way I could pin myself down to any one style either.
As a kid/teenager, I really didn't know much more than what the radio or MTV broadcast. I spun my parent's records, who had anything from Chicago to The Police to Donovan! My dad was a Blues man, my Mom loved Classical. When I met my husband/songwriting partner, I was exposed to the world of jazz, which blew my mind. I delved into the roots of music, and found love for country, folk, and Celtic music. As I started writing my own music, I learned to appreciate newer styles from a professional point of view like funk and R&B.
My own music is just like me - impossible to classify!Aug 4 2013: "great to see a musician here!"
We will all take a seat in the back now, lol! Ouch!
Aug 5 2013: Hm? Are there rows here? To me personally it seems that everybody's on stage, but ok, hope you're enjoying your free ticket :)
Don't you play yourself?
PS. T-shirts are on sale in the lobby ;-)Aug 6 2013: Ah, always been one of my favorites (geez it's been over 20 YEARS)
I'm right next to the Caribbean.
Great for the trombone too!
Another good band ...Alice Donut=REM+butthole surfers
Hold on tight! LOL :)
Hate it or love it, not much in between. Stick around for the brilliant video, ghost hits on snare, and trombone @4:15...many breakdowns. lol, ....and the "dude" from Cold Play. I think the message in this link above says alot about your question, Anna. :) Dead on.
What is Jazz? I'm from N'awelins, no idea. ;)
Aug 6 2013: Thanks for sharing.
I liked the first link, here's a both musical and graphical response to the others:
And, of course, Placebo:
Sorry for this, this is not my kid/teenage years. 2+ years after teenage.
Be well.Aug 3 2013: I am an Asian girl. As you know, in Asian, Korean pop is very popular. All teenagers in my country know all Korean stars, such as Super Junior, Bigbang, SNSD, Bi Rain... When a star from Korea came to Vietnam, many fans stood and waited in the airport many hours before they came. They hustled, even many girls fainted. Even many girls kneeled and kissed the chair which Bi Rain had sat.
University exam in 2012 in my country was idols cultural and many students quitted their exames because they said:"Don't take part in university entrance exam, we can next year but our love for Super Junior is forever." I really can not understand why they can say like that. They forget themselves and their family, they only know idols.
Yet, because of the crazy blind idol is more when the fans are willing to accept in exchange for a 1 night ticket to watch idol performances. Meanwhile, ticket prices in My Dinh, the crazy fever that the press described as "unprecedented", leapfrogging from 1 million to 2 million, 4 million, and up to the ticket could not be found with any cost.
No money, do not buy the tickets, and fans, want to be one of the 40 thousand fans wearing sky present at the My Dinh to be "once in a lifetime" look idols in the flesh, a grader 11 "simplicity" that: "I love Super Junior so if you want me to sleep with you to give me one ticket, I'll be ready."
And many other situations. As for me, in the past, I also like kpop but I never had admiration like that. Now I like US-UK pop and Vietnam music. I like Sam Tsui is a boy who often cover famous songs of famous singers. With me, many his songs are better than original.
Admiring idols is not bad but the things I want to say that please don't turn yourself into jokes.
Aug 5 2013: Thanks, I appreciate your comment very much. It reminded me of the hype I had to endure (while frowning and muttering 'you have to be kidding me') when Justin Bieber came to Oslo. Girls as young as 14 were actually writing suicide notes, begging to get concert tickets, some streets had to close, it was chaos.
In this case both the performer and the fans were a sheer parody of themselves and the music industry.
When iot comes to admiring idols... Whatever happened to reason?
I find a lot in the link above scary.
Ted Blair
Aug 2 2013: Music has many aspects. Back when I was really young, I liked all kinds of popular music. Bands such as Coldplay or the older Linkin Park. Radiohead? I'm probably a lot younger than most folks out here, so these names, don't really serve necessarily that much.
- +1
I don't really think that community had anything to do with the selected bands, they just felt emotionally appealing to me. There wasn't really any "community" in my youth. Emo's mostly stick up themselves. Even the metalheads kept it to themselves, apart from some who could have had a long hair and clothes to represent their musical taste. Essentially though, music was something that I largely considered as a "free choice", not something that I listened in lieu of community or trying to belong to something. Though nowadays, that's pretty much what I am - a loner who's deep in music but hardly can find anyone who listens to same artists.
Looking at my taste nowadays, there's four distinct type of music for me. The music I used to listen, well, I guess Radiohead and especially Moby still sometimes goes, but apart from those... not much in common. Nowadays my music taste is centered in more deep and emotional music that has to be somewhat original (on a personal level). I mostly love electronic music though. Some great examples for easily approachable deep music;
I'm not sure what kind of sentiment is hidden in there... it feels like it simply brings everyone back to their childhood memories. It's a great piece.
This is something that I'd like to call "art music". Though it's really breakbeat, but still, quite original.
And here's probably my long lasting favorite - I guess some people might find it repetitive, but I can't get enough of that simplicity and especially the vocal work.
Aug 3 2013: The last link you provided was my favourite among the three.
I remember Radiohead and Moby, I wonder what that says about my age.
maybe you remember this little bit, although it's not representative of the music. I listened to it some time before but it's only during the last 3-4 years that the sadness of the tune really got to me:
I actually was in a community, a mixed goth/emo/metal/anything non-pop. Although most of the members were loners, as you said, it did function well for some time, we even had regular get-togethers every sunday. It wasn't any form for fanclub of particular bands, just music and not only music the appealed to most of us.
Thanks for sharing, Ted.Jul 30 2013: Thanks for all the comments, stories and links.
What a musically aware community! :)
I'll reiterate or rephrase some of the questions above - why do we chose the music that we do? Is it demeanor, taste, influence of the comunity, a combination, or something more/else?Jul 10 2013: My tastes in music have changed over time.
In the 70's, 80's, and 90's, I listened to a pretty steady course of pop rock, pop country, and pop folk music. I think I like ballads the best, songs that tell stories, such as Ellanor Rigby, Bridge Over Troubled Water, Ode to Billie Joe, The Gambler, etc.. For groups, the Beatles, The Rolling stones, most of the big named bands. I never enjoyed real hard rock, acid rock or heavy metal very much.
Most recently I have been enjoying Jazz and classical music, although I will lisen to country and folk occasionally.
A lot was determined by how the music came into my life, When I was very young, we listened to what my father decided was good music. Crosby, Sinatra, show tunes, and things you would hear on Lawrence Welk. In addition to this, my dad would sing as we drove anywhere, as we got ready for bed, or family outings, tunes from the 20;s to the 60's, accpella until we learned the words and could sing with him. He didn't like Rock and Roll, so we didn't listen to it until the mid-70's. In the late 70's and 80's, I began to drive and had control of the radio. I had a couple classic rock stations that I listened to that dictated what I would hear, unless I drove with a friend that had something on an 8-track, or later a cassette, that was interesting. The radio has continued to bring most of my music to me, but now I find something like smooth jazz or classical that I can listen to in the background while I work. In the past 10 years, I have also been to a couple dozen symphonies to hear the music of various classical composers.
This is probably a pretty typical music patten for folks in my generation. I always like a movie best if there was good music with it. Even today, I just bought a copy of "The Singing Nun" because I liked the songs when Debbie Reynolds sang them. Sadly the real Singing Nun's story is not so up lifting.
My musical tastes have changed with time,
Jul 19 2013: Yes, musical tastes change as we and our situation change, they also change as the community and stage of life changes. Now I listen to types of music that a lot would say seems to be in deep conflict. But if it would be the same genre, the same melody, the same lyrics, the same thing all over again, that would be boring, right? :)Jul 9 2013: I still am a teenager but my favorites are all over.
I love Vybz Kartel, Movado, Peter Ram, Machel Montano, just as much as I love, Andy C, Lenzman, Virus Syndicate, Buraka Som Sistema, Daft Punk just as much as I love Antonio Carlos Jobim and Oscer De Leon and Celia Cruz.
Most importantly it says that I grew up in a multicultural and open setting.
Jul 9 2013: I remember Daft Punk too.
I can't say I grew up in a multicultural and open setting, the word 'open' doesn't seem to fit it. My favourite bands from early years were always bootleg, no internet, no access, no originals, but hey, there were communities that could help... So yeah, there are far worse communities still. Best wishes.Aug 9 2013: So when I was a teenager, I was angry. I discovered heavy metal and Iron Maiden ruled my musical tastes. That isn't to say I don't like other genres and can listen to country and oldies too.
Now that I am 46 I still find that metal is still my favorite genere. I just like the release it gives me. My current favorites are the folk and viking metal bands such as Eluveitie, Amon Amarth, Heidevolk, Tyr, Trollfest and even the fun pirate metal of Alestorm!Aug 8 2013: : I still am a teenager but my favorites are all over.
I love Vybz Kartel, Movado, Peter Ram, Machel Montano, just as much as I love, Andy C, Lenzman, Virus Syndicate, Buraka Som Sistema, Daft Punk just as much as I love Antonio Carlos Jobim and Oscer De Leon and Celia Cruz.Aug 8 2013: As a kid raised in the 80´s I have a lot of influences. From POP, to ROCK, SOUL. I grew up with Madonna, Michael Jackson. I grew up with the last years of Freddy Mercury and The Queen. Cannot forget the 70's remains like ABBA, Boney M, The Bee Gees, and hits of POP and DISCO Sound. I am connected with a lot of one hit songs from the 80´s and the 90´s, we where rich in this kind of hit songs. Cannot forget names like Elton John, George Michael. The boys and girls bands, like Destiny Child, N'Sync, Back Street Boys, Thake That and the rising of Robbie Williams. Whitney Houston was a name that was there.
You got U2, Depeche Mode, The Cure... But also Mettalica, and the unforgettable Kurt Kobain and Nirvana.
It's so amazing, the richness of the musical culture. To be able to travel trough many kinds of music genders and understand the message and the geniality within. I am blessed to grew surrounded by all kinds of musics. That really influenced my music knowledge, and my perception and ability to evaluate may kinds of artists and kinds of music.Aug 8 2013: Interesting Placebo song.
I am well, thanks. I believe ya should start playing music again.
Aug 8 2013: Didn't I already answer that? About playing.
The time will come when it comes, I don't feel the need right now. Call it a listening stage.
Aug 8 2013: I must have missed that and still missing that. ...But OK. Here, I'll throw this up on stage then.
Seen them live a few years ago.04 I believe. Not a teenage era band though. College years, I started late 23.
Recently found this band to be gravitating
Sorry, my OCD is beginning to show LOL There is just so much good underground stuff out there.
Aug 8 2013: Thanks, the third Beulah link was really good.
I felt the underground sound in Conner :)
It's a waste that so many underground bands may not be recognised or promoted by music industry today. They would definitely have an audience.Aug 8 2013: I see that time is running out of this conversation and I did promise to continue my post on from the 80's, but there is just to much good music to mention.
When it comes to Bob Dylan, where do you start? He has had such a long and prolific career.
We could make a list of just the women of Rock & Rock and R&B and soul music.
The Blues are another category that has so so many names that need mentioning.
There are many newer bands that pump out a few CDs and the years just swallow them all up.
The Beatles are their own category both as a group and individually, and so are the Rolling Stones
So much great music.......
I won't post anymore links, well just one more. IMHO the best and most exciting 17 minutes in rock music ...ever.
Aug 8 2013: I appreciate all your replies and summaries, thanks Theodore.
...but when it comes to Laurie Anderson I admit my defeat. I either a) "just completely don't get it" due to my lacking of competence in the ephemeral field of art appreciation or b) just to be more truthful to myself, am completely unimpressed. A lot has happened in music and visual arts since 1981 and having seen a lot of these developments, Laurie seems...uniteresting to me. Sorry for this.
The Smiths took me to an appreciative, though a bit dull, short video of Noel Gallagher opinion on them, which took me back to when this song was everywhere.
Inescapable.Aug 8 2013: Black Flag. I heard them in the fourth grade and I have been statically held in a similar state of mind ever since. I was an alarmingly aware kid who witnessed first hand the anti- labor policies of the Reagen years. Through the years, my tastes have expanded but I still fall back on late seventies and early eighties "punk" rock and roll. I am listening to "Solitary Confinement" - The Weirdos as I type this.Aug 7 2013: This is a nice overview of early Rock & Roll.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FCv58ThH5E ;Aug 7 2013: I have enjoyed reading these comments. This is the opening paragraphs in a book I am writting. The book is about how I came to the my approach to life. Song were one means to sort out life. My Philosophy Through Songs
This truth could be called pop psychology. You know, pop music psychology. Sorry about my attempt at humor. A number of my early ideas of how life should and could be were learned or at least introduced though songs. As you will see there were some very useful up sides to this, but there were also some down sides. Probably the most obvious down side was my unrealistic view of relationships. I bought the Cinderella story. It is highly promoted in songs. Specifically, my princess will one day find me and all the bad things in life will disappear and she will save me. In reality, she may help me in the quest over loneliness, but I'm the one that has to conquer that beast. However, at the same time it promotes hope for greater and better things. Something I needed and still need. Something I think we all need.
I still quite often notice that in some situations, the words to a song leads to my response. Sometimes but not often it is the entire song. More often however it is a phrase or even just a few words that resonant with me. I seldom even recall the song name or who wrote/sang it. As a example of words to a song, I don't recall the name, when it was written, or who wrote or sang it is, "...where the eagle flies with the dove, if you can't be with the one you love, honey love the one you're with..." I know I was young, a teenager or early twenties, and love was new, confusing, and girls were just now beginning to show interest. I had an image of what my love interest would be like. None of course lived up to this image. I never felt with any girl how I imaged they would make me feel. So even though I wasn't with the actual one that would be the love of my life and of course save me, I could enjoy and love the one I was with.
Aug 8 2013: Thanks, Milo.
People can struck words into our heads and if it's done by means of songs that can be played again and again and again the process is definitely more effective.
Are the opening paragraphs in the comment above? I found that part slightly confusing.
Aug 8 2013: The two paragrpahs are the first two paragraphs from one of the chapters in a book I'm working on. I ran out of room for further explanation. Songs provided a means for me to understand the world in which I lived. They either spoke to me about how I viewed life or comforted me about how I was feeling about the difficuties in life. I also passed o looking at yoru question. But glad i did. It has been extremely interesting particularly since I have a close connection to those songs of youth.Aug 7 2013: I like whatever is good at what it does now that I'm 30. When I was younger, the first band I really liked was Nirvana, but I really listened to whatever helped me fit in the best with others. Personally, I enjoy listening to and playing technical metal the most.
Aug 8 2013: By technical metal - do you mean goth industrial or guitar + computerized sound/voice?
30 is not that old, you know.
From my experience - I never listened to anything to fit in, counting on the old 'birds of feather flock together' which took me to unexpected places at unexpected times.
Aug 8 2013: I may of misused the term but what I meant by technical metal is metal that goes through several key and timing changes in songs.
Fitting in was important to me back then and the different music I was exposed to has actually, I feel, increased my ability.
I had a lot of fun playing with a classic rock, country, top 200 cover band about 2 and a half to 9 months ago. A good friend asked me to try out.
I like a slew of black metal bands from your country. One of the hardest songs I've ever learned is Dissection's Nights Blood.
Aug 8 2013: Which of my countries? ;-)
I'm actually not a fan of Dissection, but the band was on the list some years ago.
Maybe you'll like this from Norway, a classic, not black metal though.
Also check out Tulus.
And rock on :)
Aug 7 2013: growing up i listened to a little bit of everything. from both Spanish, and English hip hop/rap songs, to now expanded my music taste to African drums, Jamaican, classical, jazz/blues, boom bap rap, piano, meditations, instrumentals, even guitar, and rock etc. growing up there were a lot of things i didn't have control off some were good other bad-- where i lived, who i lived with, the school i attended, what i ate, when to get a haircut. music was one of those thing i could control -like what i listen too. me and music have a deep bond, music is also one of those non-material pure things in life like love for family. the music i listened too in theory says: that were i grew up its a diverse place, with strong cultures and values, hard workers, that go through a lot, that enjoy dancing and music, and have too many problems.= accurate. if you can find those songs that let you travel to other dimensions, those songs will stay will you forever no matter were you at. what my music says about me is I'm smart, diverse without limits, deep or profound in my thoughts, and my life has been a rollercoster ride of highs and lows. i can understand how someone with a different life will enjoy different type of jams. in theory a persons top 10 songs can tell something about them. hope this helps'Aug 7 2013: This is a real work on art. In fact it was performed at MOMA
- 0
"O Superman (For Massenet)" is a 1981 song by experimental performance artist and musician Laurie Anderson. Part of the larger work United States, "O Superman," a half-sung, half-spoken, almost minimalist piece unexpectedly rose to #2 on the UK Singles Charts in 1981[2]. Prior to the success of this song, Anderson was little known outside the art world."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VIqA3i2zQwAug 7 2013: This was one of my favorite piece of traveling music. I would listen to it on long car rides.
There are other long musical piece like this, that fall into the pop genre
Tubular Bells by Mike Oldfield,
....and Autobahn by Kraftwerks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-G28iyPtz0Aug 6 2013: Well ! I adore music.When I was a teen I've loved the girls band 'pussycat dolls' even if I'm a boy because I loved their beauty , voice , dance and their music above all the voice of Nicole scherzinger.She has got a catchy and a powerful voice and she can deal with any kind of music such as pop , opera , rock...ect that's why I loved her and i'm still adoring what she does.Moreover she is modest , simple and really funny as she seems a normal person as well as I listen to other kinds of music in which lyrics speak and make you living the story of the singer (love stories , life , troubles and so on).To sum up I would have to say music has benifits on all human beings without exception , but one should learn from it and try to inspire from the message behind the insturments and melodies. Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Aug 8 2013: You're welcome :)
PS. Nicole is not bad, I've heard only two songs, both were catchy.
Agreed on the benefits.Aug 6 2013: There is so much music that I enjoy. Do you know the music of "The Smiths?"
I've made hobby of finding the very best of the obscure music. In college I did a radio show and know guys that went of to work in New York City in the radio industry. They had crates, literally melon crates, of vinyl. I am still friend with a guy here in Vermont that does a radio program for Vermont Public Radio, about the history of rock & roll.
Try these:
The Velvet Underground:
Captain Beefheart and his Magic Band
Blood, Sweat & Tears, (The very first album)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkLaNsTEtW4Aug 4 2013: Started off with Motown when at school - Temptations, Smokey Robinson, Marvin Gaye etc. That music always reminds me of when I started 'noticing' girls...
At Uni it was Joni Mitchell, Crosby Stills Nash and Young, James Taylor, Nick Drake, The Who, MIles Davis' "A Kind of Blue" Yes, Santana, Steely Dan, Doctor Feelgood, The Jam, Alan Stivell + loads more. This was the most powerful link I've experienced in my life, between the music I listened to, and socially with the people I was with at the time. I keep harking back to that amazing time by playing any one of the bands mentioned and it is almost as vivid a memory as being there again. Just yesterday I was driving through the Welsh Hills with Steely Dan's album "Aja" on full blast - What a sublime experience!!
Aug 4 2013: So true, music can has the ability to enhance the links between people, make experiences more vivid, reflections and emotions deeper, even if it only serves a function of soundtrack to the situation you're in.
Your comment reminded me of car rides (as a passenger) I took with some of my old friends, I was living in Southern Poland then, working, literally living at work with my colleagues. We played tunes that are definitely not my style while driving and now, when we have a chance of having a reunion, we still play them with the sentimental "Do yo remember when..." Aaah.Aug 4 2013: Well let's hope problem is solved. Judging by the music link you shared, I'm would buy that. :)
Here are some links to a young composer I know, Ryan Black, also a Ted Member, and my favourite composer who produces music of the classical, pop style you suggested, Vanessa Mae. :http://moonstroller.com/wp/?page_id=22
Aug 4 2013: Vanessa is a TED member? Wow! I adore this woman!
Thanks for the link, nice page.
Aug 4 2013: No. :) Ryan Black is a TED member. His video is the first video on that page. The rest are of Vanessa Mae. I don't know if Vanessa Mae is a member but I might send her an invitation. She is an extraordinary woman.
Vanessa Mae did a video on her exploration of her genetic make-up about where and how her Genes influenced her career abilities. You might find it interesting. It is also at the same site and is titled, appropriately enough, "The making of Me." : http://moonstroller.com/wp/?page_id=93
Aug 4 2013: Thanks, I need to give my grammar glasses a tune-up ;-)
I've seen the first part of the documentary, looking forward to others.
For me Vanessa, and other violin players, have a sentimental value of sorts. I started with the violin at the age of six after being examined and tested and a music school and found to have absolute pitch (which I don't have, I think they made a mistake). The cruel methods mentioned in the first link definitely did not work on me - at the age of 11 I was sitting, shaking on the sofa saying to my mother that "I don't want to go there anymore, mom." I meant the music school. My strongest memory from that time is holding my hand on a door frame when entering the room and getting it accidentally slammed on by my overemotional teacher. I was crying and bleeding, she still made me play although there were drops of blood on the strings. Acheiving supreme coordination that violin requires is quite hard when you're bleeding and shaking. Anybody that can go through that and smile while talking about it is a hero to me.Aug 7 2013: You both may like or already know this group.
Aug 7 2013: I both know and like them, maybe John does as well :)Aug 4 2013: Leonard Cohen
Fleetwood Mac
Van Halen
Pink Floyd
Michael Jackson
LL Cool J
Busta Rhymes
Missy Elliott
Whitney Houston
Mariah Carey
Traci Chapman
Roberta Flack
Peter Gabriel
Phil Collins
Earth Wind and Fire
Dub Step
Kidd Rock
Jonny Cash
Green Day
Brian McKnight
Carrie Underwood
Within Temptation
Linkin Park
VNV Nation
Dead Boy and the Elephant Man
Beats Antique
In This Moment
Skylar Gray
Neil Diamond
Dimmu Borgir
Just depends on my mood.
Willing to listen to anything at least once.
In our teens we have this tendency to connect who we are with the kind of music we listen to. I went to an incredibly diverse school in the city and was raised by people from multiple generations. Their musical preferences spanned all the way across, I found myself singing along with basically any song that came on any radio station from the time I was very small.
Classical music blares through my speakers from time to time, my 7 years with the all city orchestra in grade school gave me an appreciation for Brahms, Bach, Pachelbel, etc... if you're into classical check out Black Violin, hip hop classically trained violin players, or Miri Ben Ari, another exceptional violinist. Apocalyptica is heavy metal cellists, gotta love that.
I have a preference for Italian opera over German, Si Tu Mami is my favorite. Sends chills up your spine.
Music set, reflect, or lift a mood. No one genre can do that for me.
Aug 6 2013: "Music set, reflect, or lift a mood. No one genre can do that for me."
I won't attempt to make a list of my favourites, I don't think 2000 characters would be enough, but some of yours would be in my selection.
I know Apocalyptica well, missed the sound, thanks for reminding me of them.
I haven't heard of Black Violin before, you meant this group, right?
Incredible, human musical ingenuity has no borders, loved it.
Aug 6 2013: Yes those are the guys, the one has the coolest strings instrument I've ever seen.
I've found that musical preferences can often times help me make certain judgments about people. Eclectic tastes in music usually means that the person is accepting of different types of people and has a generally open minded point of view.
A person who lacks an appreciation for a variety of genres of music tends to have a narrower view on life and becomes obstinate if you try to introduce an idea or theory that contradicts their own.
There are exceptions to every rule obviously, this is just something that I happened to pick up on and make it a point to pull that piece of info out of the conversation whenever I can to find out if it supports my view or not.
Aug 6 2013: "There are exceptions to every rule obviously, this is just something that I happened to pick up on and make it a point to pull that piece of info out of the conversation whenever I can to find out if it supports my view or not."
I guess that's called confirmation bias ;-) Kidding.
I agree that a person sticking to one or a few genres is narrowing his/her own perspective on music and aesthetic experiences. I can enjoy and appreciate everything from Schuman to Suicide Commando, depending on the mood, but I would be tentative on making judgments about people generally without actually knowing them, especially if it's based on musical taste. Don't judge lest you be judged :)Aug 6 2013: Those who fear judgment fear being judged harshly and probably rightly so. We have the ability to judge for a reason, utilizing that ability helps me to navigate through conversations without making offensive comments and staying away from sensitive topics. If more people utilized their good judgment when interacting with people and knew how to effectively communicate our list of societal issues might actually dwindle.
I know what you're saying and can acknowledge that the term judge generally carries with it negative connotations but keep in mind your response to my comment was delivered based on your judgment of what I said. :)Aug 4 2013: I was deeply into Led Zeppelin, Iron Butterfly, Crosby Sills Nash and Young, Alice Cooper -the Beatles, of course- The Beach Boys, and too many other to mention. The conflict in Vietnam had a tremendous affect on my musical disposition.
I also played Guitar and pursued a careerer as a rock star, which gave way to raising a family and going to college. I got deeply into the evolution of Rock Music and saw it becoming something more increasingly intellectual as bands like The Silver Bullet Band played with the themes and motif's, only to see it descend back into the primitive depths, as the music industry put their money into such bands as AC/DC in order to capture another younger Generation of kids. It's a money game. It becomes what they want us to like more so than what we want to like.
What would happen to the music industry if the next generation decided they like Classical music? How might the industry defend against this -no money to be made- situation? How would arts and humanities promote it?
I'm sure everyone feels this would never happen, but.... what if?
Aug 4 2013: Oh, there's a way to make money there, John.
Most soundtracks to major productions have to have a classical tune, either new or old, there's money there.
There's money in fusion of pop artists, classical composers and choirs, merging the new and the old, adding some special effects...
I see a way out of the dire, alternative future ;-) In this future, this composer would be a superstar:
But are classical composers so interested in making loads of cash or just making good music? Probably the latter which means - more cash for the industry. Problem solved, possibly.Aug 4 2013: I started my Rock Interests with Elvis in the 50's as a child, from my older brothers record collection and music on the radio. I got together with friends and we 'performed' the Motown girl groups--The Supremes, Shirelles, etc for ourselves with all the 'moves' we could manage! Bob Dylan inspired me to try to learn the harmonica, which I never did master and 'Everybody Must Get Stoned' was a delight knowing that I wasn't alone in making childhood mistakes and taking blame! Bobby Vinton and others filled in nicely right before The British Invasion and we all chose 'sides' and our favorite band member--I was on The Stones side up against The Beatles, of course, which I also enjoyed. Simon and Garfunkel was even discussed in the classroom (Sounds of Silence) in High school and I also enjoyed the other popular songs of the day. Jimi Hendrix was something new and exciting we hadn't heard the likes of before along with Led Zepplin and Janis Joplin. The Folk Singers caught our attention with the Hippie Movement of the 60's and dabbling a little in The Blues with Paul Butterfield Blues Band and The Blues Project.Aug 4 2013: Whilst growing up in 1980s would place me in the MTV generation age bracket, I am rather liberal in picking what I like or dislike.
Pop music of pretty much any era, though I pick what I like, not billboard charts or sales figures. I either like it or not. If it sucks, I state so. If it does not, I like it. Simple. Abba, Boney M, and plenty more since these. No Springsteen, no Black Sabbath, don't care about any rock (except few Queen songs) and anything that leads to depressing state of mind.
Classical music of most composers heard of, starting with waaaay back when classical music was not classical yet and closing with some "contemporary" classical authors. Again, it better be good and at least attempt at rivaling Mozart or Tchaikovskiy.
Jazz, but mostly big bands, though, I like the three- and four-men bands, too. Definitely no crazy experimental kind, 'nuff said. Benny Goodman was a good man, indeed, and so was Glenn Miller (if you think there is anything better than his "In the Mood", I am lagging behind with the latest developments).
Electronica is kinda okay, but not the crazy bleep-bleep kind (tried to listen to a lot of it last 10+ years ... tired).
Dancing music ... this is tricky, because I like break-dancing kind, but not the dumb kind. Plus, I tend to pick music out of the various eras. Hard to pinpoint any particular years. I have favorites from almost any decade known to Billboard.
Folkmusic - yes, please. Most slavic music is okay, though, not terribly brilliant to my liking. My favorites are some georgian music (from country of Georgia), especially, some or their latest, and bavarian Oktoberfest music. Also, there are amazing georgian male choir chants that are centuries old tunes that refuse to go out of fashion. Look up "Suliko" on youtube for example. There are plenty more. Some swedish folkmusic is fine, too, but not that advanced compared to georgians. If you think african chants are osum, you have not heard real georgians yet.
Aug 4 2013: Thanks for sharing, Sam.
Have you tried Goran Bregovic or folk music from "Albion"?
Here's a taste:
When it comes to pop - at times pop is difficult to define. Popular music, music for the masses... What becomes popular is often was masses are enchanted, enthralled by, it may be a genre that cannot be described as pop, but times change... Now the younger masses are into what the producers design for them, sorry for the simplification.
Still on pop - your comment made me think of Mamma Mia movie (with Abba songs as themes). After being dragged to the movie theatre to see it and then, after actually seeing it and feeling some sort of anti-consumerian distaste, I had enough courage to say 'Well, I didn't particularly like the film." the reaction from the one who dragged me there was "You're weird."
That was some years ago and I'm still thinking of a good response to that... Maybe I should have said 'I prefer to be a bit weird but myself than..." Oh, I don't know...
Aug 4 2013: Anna,
"Mamma Mia" ... went to see it in the Winter Garden on the Broadway just three weeks ago ... being a bit of a musician myself, I can tell this much ... sometimes the music is larger than the performers who perform it ... IMHO, Abba music is of that kind. Regardless who sings or plays it, it sounds good. Musical-wise I was unimpressed, or rather, thought of it as being weird, too, straight out of 1960s kind ... few plot lines could use some major cleaning up to make them PG-13 ... I am not a fan of musicals to start with, though, definitely know that some real-life situations make one sing, so can relate :]
Pop music is actually a tricky genre to define, agree. Mozart and Salieri music was somewhat the popular music of its time, too (though, I have another pet theory of mine that during that era it was not the concert hall music, but travelling troubadours ... kinda FM radio of its times).
Thank you for sharing the link, I've heard quite a number of nordic and celtic singers, but all in all prefer Enya any time ... and Secret Garden ... and Marcome, who, IMHO out-sang Enya with her "Seven Seas".
I'll share something, too. Try this amazing contemporary georgian masterpiece, combining ancient melodies and modern remakes ... I admire georgians for preserving their cultural heritage and finding ways to incorporate it into the modern life without destroying their roots.
Or, here is another amazing modernized version of georgian chant, likely, based on some folktale:
Back to Abba and music that is larger than the performers who perform it ... these ancient georgian melodies ... they have been polished and perfected for centuries ... and it shows. That's what contemporary pop music is lacking. Pop music is of a fleeting temporary nature, written in a day, it dies within a day. In some ways it resembles background noise. Something like that :]
Aug 5 2013: Loved the links!
I agree, the old can be successfully preserved within the new, of whatever persuasion.
Here's a taste (you don't have to like it ;-)):
Ukrainian black metal:
A piece from Finland:
I don't expect that you'll enjoy my links as much as I enjoyed yours, but since we're talking about preservation of old chants and songs... Can you imagine that songs by Madonna, Rihanna and so on will be considered folk music, researched and re-made by people in the year 3000? This little thought just struck me.Aug 3 2013: Anna, why did you quit playing music? Well, never mind then.Aug 3 2013: It has everything to do with what what you were exposed to by chance or what you came across by accident or what others told you was good before you could decide for yourself.
Aug 6 2013: And when you decide for yourself (or think you do, when your semingly counscious decisions may just be an effect of exposure, rebellion against the exposure, innate longing, a combination of all those and more) you just might discover music from the past and present you have not been exposed to before... And again... And again... Provided you have a search engine and an open mind.Aug 3 2013: Back when rock & Roll got started.....
Elvis in 1954,
Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, Fats Domino, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Gene Vincent. All legends!
Phil Specter's "Wall of Sound"
Motown was its own sound.
And there was surfin' too
The British Invasion:
Back in the day, there was no better place to here music than "The Fillmore." Every band worth its salt played there.
Music videos change music forever.
Bands could no longer just make music, they had to have the right look also.
Romeo Void fell victim to this trend when they were dropped by their record label due to Debora Iyall's "looks".
But then came "disco."
to be continued......


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Fima by Nameeks Bio Deck Mount Tub Spout Trim
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|Product Type: Tub spout
|Style: Modern
|Hardware Finish: Stainless Steel
|Gloss Finish: Yes
|Faucet Material: Metal
|Waterway Material: Metal
|Handle Material: Metal
|Hardware Material: Stainless Steel
|Number of Items Included: 2
|Pieces Included: Spout and flange
|Rust Resistant: Yes
|Corrosion Resistant: Yes
|Chip Resistant: Yes
|Tarnish Resistant: Yes
|Stain/Spot Resistant: Yes
|Drip-Free: Yes
|Mounting Type: Deck mounted
|Diverter Included: No
|Adjustable Water Flow: Yes
|Hand Shower Included: No
|Compatible Valve Type: Digital transfer; Thermostatic; Pressure-balancing; Transfer; Stacked; Volume control
|Shutoff Valve Included: No
|Valve Included: No
|Valve Trim Included: No
|Overflow Included: No
|Supply Tubes Included: No
|Thread Type: MNPT
|Hose Required: No
|Wall Supply Elbow Included: No
|Number of Faucet Installation Holes: 1
|Spout Arch: Hi-arch
|Wall Brackets Included: No
|Drain Assembly Included: No
|Water Efficient: Yes
|Rated Operating Pressure: 80
|Matching Accessories Available: Yes
|Commercial Use: Yes
|Product Care: Clean with a non-abrasive cleaner and a soft cloth
|Country of Manufacture: Italy
|Assembly Required: Yes
|Installation Required: Yes
|Additional Parts Required: Yes
|Product Warranty: 7 year limited
|ADA Compliant: Yes
About the ManufacturerTheir Company, located in Briga Novarese, at just a short distance from Novara and Milan, was established in 1960 as a result of Carlo Frattini's determination and commitment and today represents a reality well-known and appreciated within the high quality taps and fittings sector.
Fima by Nameeks Bio Deck Mount Tub Spout Trim
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OUR SKU # EEK1087Bio Deck Mount Tub Spout Trim is also sometimes listed under the following manufacturer numbers: S2223CR/BI, S2223SN/BI