text:
- Laurens Rademakers
- Brussels
- Belgium
This conversation is closed.
The death penalty is unjustifiable
Over the past decades, the death penalty was abolished in most civilized countries. This has had no effect on murder rates (on the contrary, they keep dropping). Only some primitive societies still use that most heinous of crimes, which is the death penalty: barbaric states like those of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or China. They still hang, cut off heads, poison, shoot or butcher convicts. What's bizarre is that the U.S. is amongst those countries.
There is no justification for the death penalty. The death penalty is murder, plain and simple.
-There is no moral justification for murdering a murderer (if you think there is, please state which one).
-There is no legal justification for murdering a murderer (if you think there is, please state which one).
-There is no social justification for murdering a murderer (if you think there is, please state which one).
-There is no religious justification for murdering a murderer (if you think there is, please state which one).
Like all civilized countries, the U.S. should abolish the death penalty and get along with the age of Enlightenment.
Jim Moonan
Jul 27 2011: As often happens in TED conversations, this one is having trouble staying on point!
- +2
We are debating capital punishment!
In my opinion it is morally/ethically unjustifiable - but this is only half my stance on the subject of what is and is not justifiable punishment for the worst of the worst murderers of human beings. I believe the punishment for such crimes should be nothing less than 1) mandatory life in prison, 2) solitary confinement, 3) provision of only the basic needs of food, clothing and shelter 4) minimal use of material pleasures.
This to me would be just punishment. Agree or diagree?
Jul 27 2011: Agree, Jim.
I'd add the murderers hard labors should be directly confined to focusing on meeting the needs of other humans. Their punishment should be constructive to humanity which embody the society from whom murders steal lives.
This constructive justice should not be confused with restorative attempts to atone or amend the loss they perpetrated Nor should it be confused for paying back society for economic costs of their adjudication and incarceration, such as by manufacturing license plates.
Murder is quite literally the destruction of a human. Humanity, then, is what should benefit most. Not via abstract government pass-throughs or economic pay-offs, but by concrete and direct means that uplift humans and articulate clearly humanitarian outcomes.
As a bonus, healing might occur for both offender and offended. But this goal must for the course of the murderers existence be secondary to constructive labors for humanity.
Jim Moonan
Jul 27 2011: Yes, "constructive justice" first and foremost. For the victims of such crimes the tragedy must be unspeakable and so our response must always keep that in mind while still staying true to our societal values (you don't kill someone for killing someone).
- +1
I love your thinking about the destruction of humanity and the obligation we have to, in some small way, make the time spent in prison be spent paying back through work that benefits the very society they so grieviously violated. Again, these are cold-blooded murderers.
Your thought, too, about what healing might occur for both the victim and the offender rings true. This to me would be the ethical, moral response to first degree murder.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Jul 29 2011: Jim,
This exchange we've had has been much on my mind as I think about the murders which happened in Norway.
And a colleague who has been/is deeply involved in human rights work in Olso. His group has been working with the UN to help change global constitutions, including Norways) to separate church from state, due to concerns countries might (and do) turn on their own and punish people who do not adhere to national religious doctrine.
The Norway assassin was a Christian fundamentalist who justified his actions as necessary to protect Norway from Islam. It appears he may connected with US groups like the Tea Party, that have fringe elements who share his beliefs.
And this echoes the assassination of a little girl, grandma and others during the shooting spree at Arizona congresswoman Gabby Giffords town hall meeting this past January.
What is haunting me is how I can support my colleague as he works with others to address this atrocity.
What do they do going forward? How do they (and us) address those to destruct the humanity of ideals-based groups in our Western culture?
AndreaJul 23 2011: I have long been torn on subject of the death penalty. Here in the United Kingdom we don't have the death penalty having abolished it around fifty years ago. It is very difficult to ignore the emotional aspect of the need for retribution, particulary when you may have been the victim of a particularly horrid crime. It is not the victim that decided the punishment and, therefore, surely emotion should be vacant from the courtroom where this should really be dealt with.
Socially and morally, there is a very strong and convinving argument against the death penalty. I find it very difficult for anyone to put a cogent argument to the alternative. Many try and fail but I don't think that the death penalty should be immediately dismissed as it is in contemporary Europe. Despite this and also despite Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights holding the right to life as paramount requiring all member states to abide, Belarus and Russia still maintain within their domestic law the death penalty. Just last year, someone was executed in Belarus with a single gunshot wound to the head as the states chosen method.
I won't and couldn't put together an argument convincing enough for the death penalty to be introduced into the UK whereas I could highlight many reasons why it should remain abolished. Despite this admission, if someone where to murder, rape, cause grievous bodily harm or maim a member of my immediate or even extended family then I would do everything in my power to see their life ended. Imprisonment is simply not enough. Can you not at least agree with that last point Laurens?
This topic always frustrates me when I think about it. I have sympathy with both sides but having read Law at University, my very nature would urge me to campaign for the continued abolition of any death penalty. That is my duty as a contemporary citizen and moral member of society. Conversely however, my human instinct cannot abide severe criminality going aptly unpunished.
Jul 24 2011: QUOTE: "...if someone where to murder, rape, cause grievous bodily harm or maim a member of my immediate or even extended family then I would do everything in my power to see their life ended. Imprisonment is simply not enough. Can you not at least agree with that last point ...?"
This point is indisputable. If that is how you feel, that is how you feel.
I would argue that, should the situation present itself, you might find yourself mediating your emotional impulses and embrace those more deeply held beliefs you have expressed regarding life and the application of capital punishment.
The "emotion" I do not think is in question. For example, I feel the same outrage, I am sure, others feel, when we hear about a particularly heinous crime - like the one in Norway, for example. I simply choose not to use such emotions as the criteria by which I make my decisions.
Taking a stand against capital punishment does not mean we "feel good" about the crimes that some purport warrant the death penalty.
I salute your "frustration!" ... It is on such struggles, overcome, that civilization is built.Jul 24 2011: I feel like the perfect place for my contribution was following Anthony and Thomas. If someone was to commit one of the crimes Anthony described in his post against one of my family I would be ecstatic to see their life ended. At least I would not have to wonder if they would every put someone else through what I had to go through. People make choices, people make decisions and they should have to deal with the ultimate consequences of their actions. Choosing to not use "such" emotions Thomas comes across as a little robotic. We are beings filled with emotion and to deny such emotion is to turn away from our very beings. It is even easier to justify the death penalty if you refrain from emotion as it disenfranchises the sanctity of life.
People love to bring up "an eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind". Extrapolating upon the above, people are essentially trying say that if it was a life for a life we would all be dead. Which would only hold true if we decided to either A) murder each other in such a fashion that through retribution we all ended up dead or B) if we all committed crimes worthy of the death penalty offed each other. The saying is a nice generalization but has little real world application.
I believe that the death penalty is not only justifiable but I would love it if it was reinstated in Canada. I think that some crimes are so heinous that the participants in the crime should be abolished from this world. Murderers, rapists and pedophiles should simply be erased if there is even a 1% chance that they will ever reoffend. Society needs to simply wash its hands of some individuals and move on. It is lovely to discuss the death penalty for a philosophical perspective but the reality is that something needs to be done to prevent people from reoffending and to stop the cycle of criminal heritage that often occurs.Jul 24 2011: While you may argue that the above sentiment is inhumane or callous or ultimately unjustifiable, it is necessary given the current state of the world. The inability of the legal and prison systems to operate efficiently or at all sometimes is a completely different matter beyond the scope of my argument. If the prison systems actually rehabilitated people then my feelings about the death penalty could possibly be swayed. Unfortunately, the prison system in Canada has an abysmal track record of rehabilitation. I have never understood how locking up someone up with a bunch of other villains for a decade would result in them being magically rehabilitated.
If we cannot rehabilitate and reintegrate criminals back into society then they should not be released and there is little point in keeping them locked in solitude forever. I would argue that a swift execution in many cases is more humane than eternal confinement. Currently the rate at which we execute people is inhumane. Justice should be swift and with cause.
I believe that as a Society we have set standards via laws in terms of what we expect of citizens. Failure to conform to these standards for the greater good of the whole should result in permanent removal from society. If you would like to save all this deviants Lauren then perhaps we could all just send them to your Belgium. Perhaps you could petition Yves Leterme for such.Jul 24 2011: Furthermore, I love how you brought up the "barbaric states" and their uncivilized methods of execution before slipping in the United States in a sentence behind Lauren. As far as I know the United States doesn't cut off heads, poison or butcher convicts. An uniformed reader could easily assume that the United States still practices such methods of execution.
The justification of the death penalty is that it is for the greater good. It is the ultimate preventative step to prevent further murder and heinous crimes from possibly being committed. Ideally it would be nice if all crime could be prevented in the first place but we just aren't that civilized yet. Call me primitive but I believe that at least for now, a bullet to the back of the head will have to do cases.Jul 24 2011: Please forgive me for the numerous grammatical and spelling errors I made. I was typing and submitting at such a rapid pace that quite a few errors slipped through.
Jul 24 2011: Hi Andrew,
There are several points in your posts I could single out - like the relationship between incarceration and recidivism, the effect of capital punishment on crime rates and so on - but I think the main point is you think YOUR value system is comprehensive and inclusive enough to form the foundation of an ethical system that reflects the society within which you live, i. e. "The justification of the death penalty is that it is for the greater good."
Whose greater good? Yours? Mine? Society's?
Well, I would disagree with you. I do not think executing people contributes to the "greater good." I do think it satisfies a certain base emotional need for retribution that many of us have. And I don't think it is an attribute of an advanced society.
You do not have to agree with me.
You may have noticed, I live in China. What you espouse, matches very closely, what actually happens here. Perhaps you would like it if the rest of the world adopted the Chinese system of justice?
Many death penalty adherents, I have noticed, seem to miss this point: The reasons they offer for their position are essentially the same reasons most who have come before them have offered as justification for their particular forms of justice. We typically find our predecessors' "justice" and their reasoning to be deficient.
Of course, the big difference is: That was them; and this is us. Seriously.
What we think "makes sense" to us. It is ours. We find it almost impossible to accept that there might be any flaws in OUR reasoning.
That adherents work so hard to justify capital punishment is quite telling.
I trust you will notice I provide almost no reasons for my position. I simply state I find life to be of the utmost value and under no circumstance do I condone killing. I do not need to rationalize or defend my position. Nor do I need anyone else to share my opinion. It is enough (for me) that I do.
I feel no need to change anyone else's mind - even if I do disagree with them.
Jul 30 2011: Hello Thomas, correct me if I am wrong but in your conviction I sense a core of peace. Can you tell us perhaps a little about how your experiences have brought you to your insights.Jul 24 2011: PS I miss Vancouver (my hometown.) How's the weather?
Jul 24 2011: The weather in town has been quite lousy most of the summer. In fact, some days it feels like summer never came at all. How is the weather in your neck of the woods?
I would not suggest that the rest of the world adopt the Chinese system of justice but I do believe that the death penalty in some situations is justifiable.The Chinese justice system is plagued by many other problems that are beyond the scope of this debate. I would define the greater good as what is good for the majority. Not mine, or yours or the governments but what is actually better for society as a whole.Jul 24 2011: QUOTE: "How is the weather in your neck of the woods?"
Pretty good. Taiyuan's weather is similar to Vancouver's except it gets colder in winter and hotter in summer. This year has not been so hot (which is good.) However, the air here is not very clean.
QUOTE: "I would not suggest that the rest of the world adopt the Chinese system of justice ... "
Nor would I.
QUOTE: "... but I do believe that the death penalty in some situations is justifiable."
Yes, you have made that very clear.
QUOTE: "The Chinese justice system is plagued by many other problems that are beyond the scope of this debate."
I agree. And I think most, perhaps all, justice systems are plagued with problems.
QUOTE: "I would define the greater good as what is good for the majority. Not mine, or yours or the governments but what is actually better for society as a whole."
Here, we are not in agreement. I would define the greater good as simply that which is good. Not as that which is good for "the majority," or good only for a sub-group within a culture.
You can see the problem - the majority might "inflict" their values on an unwilling minority. What if 51% of the population decided something you did not want to do (or have done) was "good?"
I think we all know what "good" is. But I believe many of us think, that under certain circumstances, it is acceptable to abandon good. The reasons are endless: justice, vengeance, pre-emptive retaliation (there's a good one!), religious doctrine, social cohesion, etc., etc.
For me, the challenge is to "do good" when everything else is saying "do harm."
There's a reason the "Golden Rule" is almost universally held. (I will post a collection of its various iterations in another window to convey the point.)
There's a reason many of the people who are central to our development as societies (whether they were "real" people or "imagined") espouse compassion, and acceptance, and reject killing (for any reason.) Think Buddha, Christ, Gandhi, MLK, etc.Jul 24 2011: I am sure you can find other examples. (If you do, please send them to me.)
The Golden Rule
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do not unto others what would cause you pain if done to you.
A state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them.
Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you.
Tse-kung asked, "Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?" Confucius replied, "It is the word 'shu' – reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire."
Don't do things you wouldn't want have done to you.
None of you believes until he wishes for is brother what he wishes for himself
A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated.
What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary.
Ancient Roman Religion
The law imprinted on the hearts of all people is to love members of society as themselves.
(Continued)Jul 24 2011: (Continued)
The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others.
Regard your neighbours gain as your own gain, and your neighbours loss as your own loss.
The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interest of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful.
What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others. – Epictetus
Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law. – Kant
May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me. – Plato
Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you. – Socrates
Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors. – Seneca
Do not do to your neighbour what you would take ill from him. – Pittacus
Avoid doing what you blame others for doing. – Thales
What you wish your neighbours to be to you, such be also to them. – Sextus
Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others. – Isocrates
So the best managers reject the Golden Rule. Instead, they say, treat each person as he would like to be treated, bearing in mind who he is. – Marcus Buckingham and Curt Coffman
Jul 24 2011: I appreciate the effort you put into compiling the above list of quotes and references. I believe that you should do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Moreover, if I callously murdered, raped or committed pedophilia then I would hold no ill will against society if someone wiped me off the face of the earth. I hope that someone would have the decency to right a wrong.
I also think sometimes that this issue has less to do with doing good as opposed to defeating evil.
"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Jim Moonan
Jul 25 2011: Let's get this debate out of the classroom and into reality.
- +1
The issue here is justifiable punishment for heinous murder. Here is what I think is justifiable punishment:
1. Solitary confinement for their remaining years on earth
2. Removal of all material pleasures for their remaining years on earth
3. Minimal provision of basic needs for their remaining years on earth
4. Hard labor for their remaining years on earthJul 25 2011: Hi Andrew,
The list was fairly easy to compile. A lot of it came from Wikipedia. All I did was look for it.
I put it together as reference material for a training I do in China.
I do add material to it as I come across new references.
QUOTE: "... I would hold no ill will against society if someone wiped me off the face of the earth*. I hope that someone would have the decency to right a wrong.
We cannot "right" a "wrong." And I do not think killing is "decent." I accept that you do.
QUOTE: I also think sometimes that this issue has less to do with doing good as opposed to defeating evil.
One cannot defeat "evil." Evil does not exist. Evil is the absence of good. One "defeats" evil by being good. Much the way darkness cannot be defeated. Darkness is the absence of light. We do not defeat darkness by destroying it; we defeat darkness by providing light.
QUOTE: "He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
"He who accepts evil without protesting against it ..."
Protesting against it.
Protesting against it; not "killing it."
* You say that coming from the sense of certainty that you will never find yourself in such a situation. If you did find yourself in such a situation, you would (very likely) change your opinion.
Do not underestimate the mind's capacity to rationalize ANY belief. It is truly amazing.Jul 27 2011: QUOTE: "Let's get this debate out of the classroom and into reality. ...The issue here is justifiable punishment for heinous murder..."
QUOTE: "As often happens in TED conversations, this one is having trouble staying on point!"
TOPIC: "The death penalty is unjustifiable"
QUOTE: "In my opinion it is morally/ethically unjustifiable - but this is only half my stance on the subject..."Jul 23 2011: Here is a list of the countries that still have the death penalty:
Antigua and Barbuda
China (People's Republic)
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Equatorial Guinea
Korea, North
Korea, South
Palestinian Authority
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Trinidad and Tobago
United Arab Emirates
United States
Read more: The Death Penalty Worldwide — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html#ixzz1Sw0wbN9j
Jul 25 2011: Hi Thomas!
A question to you, what do you think should be done with people that break the law?
First conceptually: punish, reeducation, etc.
Second practically: prison, community service, etc.
Jul 25 2011: Hi Julian,
That is a MUCH more difficult question than "is the death penalty justifiable or not?"
I am not a fan of "laws." I much prefer the conscious application of compassion on a case-by-case basis.
I do not support punishment nor do I think it is very effective. And I find the ideas of vengeance and retribution to be ... uncivilized.
Reeducation? That's a good idea but not only for "criminals" for all of us.
I accept there are certain people who are incorrigible and I think isolating society from them is a good idea. How that is accomplished is an interesting challenge.
The British shipped their "undesirables" to Australia and that worked out okay. An Aussie just won the Tour de France!
Institutionalizing our social interactions depersonalizes them. For example, when we have "laws" by which we evaluate and direct our relationship with other people, we are stripped of the very challenging need of having to deal directly with one another and with our own strengths and weaknesses.
Our institutions might appear to make it easier (of more effective) to deal with difficult situations but, in effect, they lock us into a developmental stage that we might grow out of if we had to "deal with things ourselves."
.... Gotta go. Bye for now.Jul 31 2011: Hello Julian. Great question.
My position as influenced by my life experience:
There is a time to punish as there is a time to kill (NOT MURDER). For something to live something else must die. Thats just how it is.
I think that it is most important to be as objective as possible in defining what the pro and con of each execution portends for our maturing civilization as a whole but good luck with that.
Someone I once worked with said "All men are equal, just not at the same time".
Every life should be weighed in relation to (among other things) its benefit or potential for contributing to the longevity of an evolving universal awareness.
Some of those 'other things" begs the question is the individual open to change? Or more importantly(?) Will society evolve to embrace the ideas of an individual whose reasoning may hold the answer to potentially mortal social issues.
Sorry if this is disjointed. My post is less an affirmation of truth than an exploration of ideas.
I must admit I feel sick just thinking about it... not completely sure why...
Matt Hintzke
Jul 19 2011: I don't know about you, but if I had to choose between paying money out of my OWN pocket to let a murderer stay alive, get fed free food, get comfortable living conditions, and not have to pay taxes ever again and letting them recieve the same fate that they have caused at LEAST one other human being then by all means I would choose the latter no questions asked. If someone has the ability to end anothers life, especially if the other victim was innocent of doing anything in the first place, then I think they should deserve the same fate.
- +1
Let me ask you Mr. Rademakers, do you have children? a Wife? any loved ones at all?
If someone were to murderer one of your innocent children, would you happily let the person reponsible live safely in a jail cell and get fed food that YOU are paying for? If you can say yes to that question then I think you need to question the fortitude of your own morality.
Comment deleted
Matt Hintzke
Jul 19 2011: I agree, there are problems with the legal system, but hopefully they can be worked out soon.
- +1
Jul 23 2011: Sadly, I do not encourage the losing of one's life but I have to agree with you on such terms. Very well spoken of. Anyways, according to a few articles in which I have recently came by, isn't death penalty these days are 'painless' and more humane as human rights is still effective as long as the criminal is still alive? But of course, should a person ever commit murder (first time), he/she deserves a chance (people can change). But if the murder is committed more than once, I do agree for death penalty.Jul 23 2011: But of course, I was quite in denial (no doubt it is true) that money matters were brought into the terms of one's life.Jul 20 2011: .
Matt, I'm sorry, but I think you have completely lost your mind. You actually prefer to murder someone, because not murdering him is too expensive?
This must be the summum of utilitarianism.
Thomas Jones
Jul 20 2011: Matt has not lost his mind, Laurens. He is simply a young American male. The belief he espouses is widespread in the United States and there is no reason to think he would be immune to such a dominant cultural influence. Retribution is a valued ethos. Compassion is seen as weakness.Jul 20 2011: Laruens your points are critical. In the wake of 9/11 we have so many countries using so called 'counter terrorism' techniques and uses of torture liberally. Just now David Cameron visited Nigeria's head about terrorism. I'm sorry but Nigeriia liberally uses torture against political dissidents. Professor Bhullar was a political dissident in India and now faces execution. The question of state terrorism and how it is used to terrorise dissenters is critical as is the use of torture. Professor Bhullar faces execution in India despite there being insufficient evidence on him. In a so called democracy the judges are swayed to politics. Therefore I can only say that in this case it is a terrible miscarriage of justice and the death penalty is being used barbarically.
- +6
In India it is supposed to be used in the rarest of cases.
Yet despite insufificient evidence the death penalt is being used as a weapon of war.
In the US there are political dissidents, like Native Indian 'leaders,' aswell as most people being from poor backgrounds unable to represent their socalled crimes like OJ Simpson.
We must think about the fact that most people in their lifetime in most countries WILL not get fair enough trials minus torture and therefore the death penalty is inappropriate aside from immoral.Jul 20 2011: Laurens, you have yet to address my questions.. I did not mean them to be theoretical.If you can truely say that you would happily send a murderer to prison for their life rather than let them face the fate they knowingly chose to impose on another then I would say that you are disrespecting millions of families and loved ones of those victims around the world. You must put yourselves in the shoes of another and try to even come close to feel what they must feel. The thought that the murderer of their loved one still being not only alive, but happily taken care of in prison is a disheartening feeling. These murderers have taken the role of God into their own hands when no man should have that ability. Even though the government and justice system is by far no God as well, it is our responsibility to keep the innocent safe and there are times when it is necessary to end ones life who has done the same to others.
Thomas Jones
Jul 20 2011: Hi Matt,
- +2
Just so you know - I have no intention of changing your mind.
Having said that, I would like to point out that your response is primarily emotional and, while many people would have the same emotional response you do, there are many others who would not. Including people who have "first hand" experience with the subject.
That is, there are many people who have actually had family members killed and who do not want the murderer to be executed.
For example, some of Mark Stroman, the 9/11 revenge killer's victims do not want him put to death. One, a survivor who was shot in the face (with a shotgun I believe,) has campaigned to have Stroman's sentence commuted.
This sentiment is more common than you might think.
The two nations I have lived in that have a broad base of support for capital punishment are the United States and China. Of the two, America is by far the most strident.
Many of the other places I have lived (or visited) have much less acceptance of the practice. Some find it abhorrent.
Human life is precious (if you have a religious bent, you could say it is sacred.) All human life. Even murderers*.
I do not support the death penalty.
And nothing you, or anyone else can say will make me change my mind.
I suspect you feel the same way.
* I actually know many people who are murderers. (I used to do volunteer work in prisons) and they are, for the most part, really nice people. Do you know any?Jul 20 2011: Thomas, it is not that I want the person to just die and that be the end of it. I just would choose that over them getting the kind of life they get in prison.
Have you ever heard of the new Halden Prison in Norway? http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html
Here is an article about it. 1.5 Billion dollars to create this prison. At an estimate of 4.9 million people in Norway. Lets say 60% are adults. That is 2.94 million adults getting taxed for this prison's construction alone. That is $510 per adult living in Norway. This is all just speculative because I do not know how Norway's tax system works and how much of the prison funding was from taxes, but my point is made either way. I wonder where all this money came from. Then another couple million a year to run and maintain it I would assume. I think money like this should go to things like education, hospitals, welfare, not murderers and convicts...If murderers were sentences to a low profile prison where they were not tortured or anything but just left to work to pay for their OWN meals, room and board, etc then it would be another story. However, not all prisons do that and the ones that do still use millions of dollars worth of taxes every year.
Thomas Jones
Jul 21 2011: So for you it all comes down to dollars and cents: Money is more valuable than human life - or at least, money is more valuable than a criminal's human life.*
- +3
You are not alone in that assessment.
I do not share that belief.
Even if I did, I have scanned some of the replies and, apparently, it is cheaper to incarcerate felons for life than it is to kill them.
If we start with the assumption that life is of paramount importance, and if we apply your pecuniary values, I am certain we could come up with a satisfactory solution that did not entail killing people.
Thinking, "Incarceration costs too much, let's kill them," lacks creativity and seems a bit unresourceful to me.
Plus it's not humane.
* EDIT: Matt, I have reread some of your posts, and, I guess, to be MORE accurate, I should say:
"For you, money is more valuable than human life - or at least, money is more valuable than a criminal's human life and, to be even more precise, YOUR money is more valuable than a criminal's human life.Jul 25 2011: Life is priceless. If I'm close minded enough to consider any of my opinions as fact, that is one of them.Jul 20 2011: Matt
One can avoid the "pay money" (though I gladly pay for certain people to be removed from society) by letting them work for it: they can be used as an unpaid labor force...
I think that using prisoners to do work is not a bad thing. And there is a lot of work that won't be done otherwise.
Jul 20 2011: I agree that this should be the case, however we are not talking about alternatives to execution, just the morality of the thing. It is not that I like to see people die in the world. That is the last thing I would want. But when I see new multimillion dollar prisons being opened up in Europe that come complete with day spas, gymnasiums, world class swimming pools, and 56" plasma TVs then I have to wonder if maybe I should just go murder someone in europe so I can live in luxury all my life.
Jul 22 2011: Hi Matt:
your idea of a "luxurious life" leaves me perplex…
JBJul 23 2011: If you want to know how Prison is like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdVwXKdTnrE
He let himself lock up in prisons voluntarily... all over the world...Jul 25 2011: Hi Chirstophe!
Thanks for the link, amazing talk!
JBJul 26 2011: Christophe -- I watched the TEDx talk by Jan De Cock and found it to be informative about prisons but beside the point.
Our debate is about whether or not capital punishment is ethical/justifiable. I contend it is not. But I also contend that prison IS the place for murderers of human beings and believe strongly that, in those cases of the most heinous of murderers, that the punishment should be severe - solitary confinement, provision of only basic needs, and deprivation of material pleasures.
I would even advocate that a prison be built exclusively for the purpose of housing the most heinous murderers/criminals. Other than provision of basic needs, there is no justification for providing criminals of this kind anything. Period. Nothing.Jul 22 2011: Hi Christophe!
I'm surprised to disagree that much with you!!!
So we deem an act illegal (by consensus or any other cultural method), then we take the people who perform it (the others, the bad ones, etc) and as their actions violate the agreed standards, we are allowed to make them in to slaves and force them to do things we don't want to do…
This sounds terrible to me…
PS It's much nicer that killing them to save money anyway…
Jul 25 2011: (I was making a point to discredit the idea that prison needs to cost much money to society, which is not my complete view of imprisonment)
I don't think a forced labor punishment is the same as slavery.
I even think that giving work is beneficial to the prisoner... as he/she has something to do that is beneficial to society. They might be prepared for a job (have experience) when they get out as well.
The discussion about what punishment is given to which acts, is open to debate. As for now I assume the person in prison has actually done something terrible.
Is that slavery? well, we took away their freedom... making them slaves without work already? I really see no objection to enforce labor on them... (and that does not imply to let them suffer by working, or unhealthy working standards)Jul 25 2011: Hi Chistophe!
I think that the cost discussion is the wrong one, one could say why don't we have a monarchy and avoid the cost of having a parliament, etc…
That being said I agree with you that prisons don't need to be necessarily "expensive".
I do think that forced labor equals to slavery, but I 100% agree with you regarding the positive side of work (I just don't like the forced part).
Question for you, is prison supposed to be a punishment? Some currents of the law say that prison is there to reeducate or to protect society from that individual, etc, punishment is just one of the ways to justify prison.
Jul 26 2011: For me, the main reason for imprisonment is to remove unwanted individuals from society.
The criteria are to be defined by the laws (and hopefully thought out wisely).
I do think punishment is also an important aspect. If you do something horrible, you need to be punished (punishment still works as an inhibitor of certain kinds of behavior!).
And even the idea of an example (to frighten other possible offenders) has some validity.
As for re-educational purposes: that is indeed a very good thing (that somehow escaped me in this discussion so far). Yes, agreed, (re-)education is indeed a good idea.
Like cognitive behavioral therapy for example...
"The forced part": surely not the best way to give people freedom, but then again, a person who cannot handle freedom should not be given it.Jul 21 2011: Believe it or not, but in the US it typically costs far more to execute someone than to keep them in jail the rest of their lives without possibility of parole.
The courts take a different view when faced with a death penalty case because there's no room to get it wrong with the death penalty - the standard of judicial review is, and has to be constant access to the courts.
With life imprisonment, that's not the case. They get their trial. They probably get one automatically-heard appeal. After that, they have to give the court a reason to hear them, and every time they do and get shot down, it becomes harder for them to get an audience again. Life therefore ends up costing less, because they aren't entitled to tie up the courts.
In some states, this difference in cost is up to 10 times as much as it would to keep someone in jail for 50 years (the average time someone stays in jail under life without parole).
There's also the emotional cost for victims families - every step of the appeals process reopens wounds, and delays of as much as 20 years prevent closure. By contrast, life without parole brings closure quickly - the general perception is that once the courts have proven someone guilty and sent them away for life, nothing short of proving innocence will reverse that outcome.
Jul 22 2011: Well said, Stephanie!
Here is some actual context and proof of what Stephanie has so nicely laid out (sorry they are all from one source, but we're so good at imprisoning here in California):
1. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/local/la-me-adv-death-penalty-costs-20110620
2. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/29/local/la-me-death-row-20110429
3. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/25/local/la-me-prisons-20110525Jul 22 2011: QUOTE: "I don't know about you, but if I had to choose between paying money out of my OWN pocket to let a murderer stay alive ...and letting them recieve the same fate that they have caused ... I would choose the latter no questions asked."
What if you had to choose between paying money out of your own pocket to keep a prisoner alive and killing him, or her, yourself?
No "sanitized" execution by "the state" ... you, with a gun, or a needle, in your hand walking up to another human being and calmly killing them yourself.
Which one would you pick then?Jul 22 2011: Excellent argument. I hadn't even thought of the security jail offers. OH and to Thomas: I'd kill em. I think anyone who understood the crimes done by someone who warranted the death penalty would be angry enough to kill them.
Jul 22 2011: QUOTE: "I think anyone who understood the crimes done by someone who warranted the death penalty would be angry enough to kill them."
Hi Benjamin,
I might be wrong but I don't think you would.
I believe that, in this wonderful academic discussion we are having it is easy for you to respond to some basic and primitive emotional impulses and equally easy for you to dash of an assertive and manly, "I'd kill em."
Again, I may be wrong, but I doubt you could actually do it.
Few of us could.
If you read some of the other posts, I think you will find you are mistaken when you say "anyone who understood the crimes ... would be angry enough to kill them."
I would not.
Even some victims and victim's families are not "angry enough" to kill them.
Essentially, what you are saying is your emotional impulse (anger) is justification enough to kill another person.
I disagree with you.
Jul 22 2011: Hi thomas, I figured you'd disagree. But thank you for doing so respectfully :)
Perhaps. I simply stated that my emotional impulse is (not justification) motive enough to kill someone who has committed crimes. You had asked if the government didn't do it, would you be able to do it yourself. While I don't think the ability to commit capital punishment overly impacts whether or not it is unjustifiable, I see your point.
However, as an individual, I'm fairly sure I'd be able to do it out of anger. I don't mean to sound like a psycho, and I definitely don't mean to sound like a wannabe psycho, but it isn't about "oooh get to kill someone!"
Primarily, I'd be angry. Secondarily (I made that up), I would more consider the lives of those who died, those who were affected, and those who could be affected, as opposed to whether or not I could bring myself to kill a man who has committed serious crimes. I would have no empathy. If it was sanctioned, there'd be no repercussions for the punishment. And I could be totally alone in my opinion. So, yeah, I retract my statement about "anyone understanding the crimes", but nothing else.
Just a question though: what is it that makes you feel that the death penalty is unjustafiable.
BenjaminJul 23 2011: Hi Benjamin,
QUOTE: "... I'm fairly sure I'd be able to do it out of anger.
Here we are in total agreement. In fact, most of the murderers I do know are murderers precisely because, in a moment of anger, the were able to kill and acted on that impulse.
We are all "able to kill" it's just, for most of us, there are countervailing forces that mediate our behaviour - cognitive, "visceral," moral, social, etc. If these forces were not in place, there would probably be a lot fewer of us around!
I do not believe you would actually be able to "think yourself" into a murderous rage.
Again, I may be wrong.
But I honestly doubt the anger and the indignation you feel now - the feelings that motivated you to make the statement "I'd kill em," would be strong enough or motivating enough for you to walk up to another human being strapped onto a gurney, look into their eyes, and calmly, and deliberately, slip a hypodermic needle into their arm, depress the plunger, and watch as his, or her, eyes faded.
There are a few of our kind who can kill without compunction - we usually call them psychopaths, sociopaths, or some such thing. For the rest of us, killing is not something we could do ... unless we were in a "blind rage." Or perhaps if we were in the act of defending ourselves or a loved one.
Even soldiers must be trained to kill (in part by dehumanizing the "enemy.") And, even then, some of them will not "shoot to kill" at an individual enemy combatant.
QUOTE: Just a question though: what is it that makes you feel that the death penalty is unjustafiable.
In a word: Life.
I can "rationalize" my position by saying something like: To enforce the notion that killing is bad and wrong, by killing people who do it, makes no sense. But then "sense" has nothing to do with it, does it?
Our response is emotional; not rational.
For me, my emotional and mental appreciation for life is so complete, so total, that under no circumstance could I justify taking another person's life.
Jul 23 2011: Hi Thomas,
"But I honestly doubt the anger and the indignation you feel now"... I wasn't actually angry when I wrote that comment. I know you'd think "I'd kill em" sounds like i'm emotionally upset, but it was more of a dismissal than upset comment. Perhaps that indicates sociopathic tendencies, but I don't think so. I would never harm an innocent, to do so would plague my heart. But I firmly believe that someone who WOULD harm an innocent, simply needs to be done with. We can't send them away, we can't just make them disappear. I'd rather not pay for their lives forever in jail.
I really respect that you were bold enough to NOT over-rationalize or over-justify your feelings. It makes me happy to see someone who does not feel the need to qualify themselves for how they feel at every turn. But, I disagree with your last phrase. I value life much, so don't think I'm an ingrate over-privileged jerk. I think the most important thing in the world is a happy, prosperous life being afforded to everyone. It is with this belief that I follow a desire to eliminate problems. We have many issues in the world today, and many of them would not exist if we didn't have so many people who just love to hurt innocents. Therefore, to me, killing a homicidal maniac or other who has justifiably warranted the death penalty (and I'm not talking wife killed her abusive husband here) is just a means of ending any further issue. Perhaps that is the lazy way, and it would be best to try to rehabilitate problemed offenders, but that is where my anger and desire for vengeance comes in. Given the choice of saving potential victims with a quick strike, or saving potential victims with repeated effort on one problem area, my desire for vengeance would say "they screwed up, and don't deserve another chance". Of course, keep in mind who I'm talking about here. I don't mean youth robs a store and kills owner. I'm talking man breaks into house and murders family/ genocide in the third-world.Jul 23 2011: Hi Benjamin,
Yes, I understand your position. It is a fairly common one. That is, many people who support the death penalty share it.
As I mentioned, I live in China and the argument you present is essentially the same argument my Chinese friends use to support their position in favour of capital punishment.
I have no illusions I will be changing China's view of the death penalty any more than I think I will change yours.
The argument you, and the Chinese, make is rational. It makes sense. But for me the issue always comes down to one question: What is more important, human life or "principles." [The ideas of justice, and social responsibility would be an examples of principles.]
The answer (for me) is ALWAYS: Human life.
I understand for others (you perhaps) different principles may be more important than human life. Principle's like pecuniary responsibility (Matt); "justice," etc.
These other values never strike me as very compelling; they are human inventions. We create values like "integrity" but we do not create human life.
That our own inventions can be seen as more important than we are makes no sense to me.
I do not expect you to agree with me. And I have heard (I'm sure!) all the arguments about what would happen if we lived without "principles" [which I am not suggesting] ... society would collapse, there'd be killers behind every tree, etc., etc. I have heard how, for the sake of society, or the weak, or the victims, we should do "this or that" ... and none of them are more important, to me, than life itself.
As an aside, those things we are willing to kill one another for actually change from time to time and from culture to culture. They are not universal. The appreciation of life, as far as I can tell, is.
Oh, and I didn't think you were angry when you wrote your reply but I do think the reply "comes out of anger." It is an emotional response triggered, we might say, by "imagined anger" - how we imagine we would feel if faced with a killer.Jul 23 2011: So Matt, which one would you pick?
1) Pay with your own money to keep them alive?
2) Kill them by your own hand?
Jul 23 2011: Thank you for your articulate response :) I would disagree on one last point, for the sake of argument:
"those things we are willing to kill one another for actually change from time to time and from culture to culture" I definitely would only be willing to kill someone who has taken multiple lives of others. No stoning women for killing their abusive husbands in afghanistan. No crap. None of it!
But again, I deeply respect your opinion, and I'm very glad you shared it with me.
Jul 23 2011: Hi Benjamin,
You're welcome.
You mention that you disagree with the idea that those "things we are willing to kill one another for actually change from time to time and from culture to culture" and then you say, "I definitely would only be willing to kill someone who has taken multiple lives of others. No stoning women ..."
Well, that is my point: That, at different times and in different cultures, we have been willing to kill one another for different reasons.
In some countries you can be, or could have been, executed for: political dissent, murder, espionage, treason, rape, adultery, incest, sodomy, apostasy, arson (in royal dockyards,) drug trafficking, theft, being in the company of gypsies (for one month,) strong evidence of malice (in children 7 - 14 years old,) pick-pocketing, stealing a horse or a sheep, and so on.
In the Judeo-Christian tradition, historically, one could be executed for: entering the temple (if you were "a stranger,") sacrificing to the gods other than YHWY; breaking the sabbath, blasphemy, worshipping Baal, necromancy, your ox killing a man or woman, losing your virginity before marriage (women only), marrying your wife's mother, gluttony and excessive drinking, disobeying your parents, consuming blood, eating leavened bread during the feast of unleavened bread, wearing cloth made of more than one fabric, and so on.
In some cultures murder is not a big deal. In recent times, an anthropologist spent some time with an indigenous culture (I forget where) and he noticed that certain disputes were resolved by killing one's opponent. There were no legal repercussions. It was simply an accepted way of resolving a conflict.
He started asking around to see how common a practice it was and one woman said her husband had been so killed. When he asked by whom, she said, "By my current husband."
In other words, the things we are willing to kill one another for change from time to time and from culture to culture.Jul 23 2011: I understand what you mean, but that doesn't make capital punishment wrong. It makes the reasons for capital punishment wrong. As I've stated, I'd only follow it if certain parameters were met. The statement of "the death penalty is unjustifiable" can be easily made null when talking about genocide, mass-murder, mass torture, etc. I understand your point, but I think it's just to say no matter which culture you belong to, and what customs you hold, and what you think is "worthy" of capital punishment, as an individual from a modern society, in which most people are afforded a chance, and no strict religious beliefs or customs governing the way we administer or debate justice, there are (a few) cases in which capital punishment is still the best option
I think of it like this: In India, a little while back, a group of Dalits (the lowest cast) was mobbed and lynched for trying to skin dead cows, so as to make a living. This type of death punishment is oriented by the religious and cultural belief that cows are sacred. In America, if a man kills X amount of people, he warrants the death penalty. This isn't governed by religion: it's a modern judgement, made with religious or cultural predisposition or bias.
On a side note, You say YHWY... I say YHWH, as in יהוה... Was that a typo? Or is it some other form I've never seen?
Jul 23 2011: Hi Benjamin,
I've seen both YHWY and YHWH used; as well as: Yahweh, Yahveh, YHVH, Jehovah, Yehovah, יהוה and others. Perhaps it reflects regional or cultural differences.
You say, " ... if a man kills X amount of people, he warrants the death penalty. This isn't governed by religion: it's a modern judgement, made with religious or cultural predisposition or bias."
Yes, this is "modern judgement" but then, not too long ago, killing a 10-year-old child who demonstrated definite signs of malice was considered "modern judgement" (a decision made with religious or cultural predisposition or bias.)
One could argue that if something is wrong, then no reason (or excuse) will ever make it "right;" and if something is "right" it is right regardless of the reasons we do it.
So, if it is "right" to kill people, it is right to kill people for any socially sanctioned and culturally accepted reason. Or for no reason at all ... because killing is "right."
And if killing is wrong, it is wrong to kill for any reason.
Of course, we do not all agree that killing is wrong. You don't.
Harald Jezek
Jul 18 2011: I think the strongest argument against the death penalty is that it is actually the easier way out for a murderer.
- +1
Sitting in jail for 50 years or more appears to be a much tougher punishment than a lethal injection.
In other words, I'm in favor to abolish the death penalty, but primarily for above reason.
Jul 20 2011: Harald you should also worry- that you are not the subject of a miscarriage of justice like Professor Bhullar in India. That you are not a political dissenter- because trust me in any country- any country, like India, you could face a political execution through the death penalty. Therefore as torture is being liberally used by countries all over the world- the court is no longer fair and therefore the arbiter cannot be the death penalty when it is all a random act now.
Jul 21 2011: Yes, you are right. That is a valid concern indeed.
This discussion actually brings up the question what is the appropriate punishment for the most heinous crimes ?
I think, Matt has a point when he brings up the economical aspect of lodging and feeding the worst of society for decades. Why should society pay for that ?
But then, what are the alternatives ?Jul 17 2011: The U.S. nearly abolished the Death penalty in the 70s with the ruling against cruel and unusual punishment but state by state it has been brought back so that about a third of the states now have it again. Texas being the chief practitioner I believe. The recent wave of cases in which DNA proved that people on death row were innocent has made few converts for those who oppose the Death penalty. Yes it is illogical and expensive and ineffective but since we have a modified form of democracy that does not deprive the ignorant of their right to vote then lots of popular policies continue in the face of any evidence that they are a bad idea.Perhaps the most glaring failure of American education is its' obvious inability to teach logical thinking. This is shown by the fact that we continually elect a congress that denies reality. It all goes to prove the ancient dictum that only two things in the universe have no observable limit, the first being the ignorance and willful stupidity of mankind. Saying "you can't be that stupid" is silly, of course they can and are. The second limitless noun apparently is the mercy of Deity.
Jul 18 2011: See, this is totally ludicrous: a "humane" form of killing doesn't exist. It's still killing, murder, butchery.
With the death penalty things are simple: either you abolish it, and you don't kill, or you don't abolish it, and you kill.
Jul 18 2011: Of course many of the same "conservatives who support the death penalty rabidly oppose abortion because that is real murder in their eyes. Some legislator in South Carolina recently proposed to give full rights to every fertilized ovum and to investigate miscarriages as suspected homicides. The fact that the majority of said ovum never implant and I believe the majority of those that do implant on the uterine wall spontaneously abort is okay because God has the right to pick and choose whether by lightning or otherwise. I myself oppose abortion after the first six weeks max, but will agree to make it punishable only when the sperm donors are made equally responsible. Birth and death of course are totally natural we slaughter pigs for bacon and they are at least as intelligent as dogs and apparently more than some congressmen. If we ate executed prisoners like the Aztecs are alleged to have done would that then be more moral? I often contemplate becoming a vegetarian at least as far mammals [chicken is so tasty} fish is supposed to be good for you but I fear my mercury limit is already filled.Jul 19 2011: The Death penalty is anything but simple. There are truly evil people in the world. In a society where such people can be locked away from the population for life I agree, the Death Penalty should not be necessary. What about other societies that have a weak prison system where they can get out and kill or torture again? What if heinous criminals could not be locked up? What do you want us to do, transport them to Brussels so you can pamper the viscous murderer and forget about their victims?
Jul 20 2011: Southern Celt- you havenot nailed it. You are worried about people getting out to kill, what about those who are tortured. What about you being locked up on a false charge and as time goes on you are tortured.......When will those people get justice.
The EU and Brussels does not have a higher criminality than those so called countries using the death penalty. We don't need to do it. It's appalling. If your friends were tortured I doubt you would want them executed on the basis of a death penalty. Under torture people can confess to anything. And torture is the new state order of the day.
Helen Hupe
Jul 17 2011: I cannot think of even one reason to justify killing someone. I do believe self defense is allowable.
- +1


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subset: commoncrawl


text:
It was the fourth consecutive win for the Aggies, who improve to 6-1 entering
their inaugural Southeastern Conference match against No. 43 South Carolina
(7-3), Friday at 5 p.m. at the Mitchell Tennis Center.
"I thought today's match was just particularly difficult," A&M head
coach Howard Joffe said, "and I certainly don't want to be a baby - Baylor had
the same set of circumstances - but it was pretty darn cold, it was really
windy, and what made the wind even worse, it wasn't blowing in just one
direction. It was like swirling all over, so it was just really difficult to
play any kind of quality tennis. But in terms of the competing, hopefully it
has put some good mileage on us and it is a good, to use the theatrical vernacular,
a dress rehearsal for our first SEC match in two days."
As A&M junior Cristina Stancu, who plays No. 1 doubles and No. 2
singles, watched from the stands with an injury, the Aggies got clutch wins
from a pair of freshmen doubles teams to take a 1-0 lead against the Bears.
Twins Ines and Paula Deheza, who joined the team in January and were playing up
a spot in the altered lineup, jumped out to a 4-0 lead against Baylor's Maria Biryukova
and Megan Horter en route to an 8-3 victory at the No. 2 line.
"They played particularly well," Joffe said when asked about the four freshmen.
"If I had to single out one person, it would be Paula Deheza. Baylor sort of
came out with a strange strategy. They were just whacking all the balls at the
net player, and Paula literally like Harry Houdini hit like 15 straight winner
volleys, and suddenly they were in an unassailable lead at No. 2 doubles, so
she played particularly well."
Baylor evened the race for the doubles point at the No. 1 line as the
23rd-ranked duo of Ema Burgic
and Victoria Kisialeva pulled away for an 8-6 win against the tandem of Cristina
Sanchez-Quintanar and Wen Sun, who had up until today been playing the No. 2
The point came down to the No. 3 position, where rookies Stefania Hristov
and Anna Mamalat were playing together for the first time this spring. They found
themselves trailing 3-0 to Baylor's Kiah Generette and Alex Leatu, but after
being down two service breaks, the Aggie duo fought back and got the match back
on serve at 4-4. The teams were on serve with A&M leading 8-7 when Baylor committed
a double fault to put A&M at match point. The Bears then hit long on the
next play to give A&M the 9-7 win and a 1-0 lead.
"I would say at No. 3 doubles, more than anything it was a character
win," Joffe said. "It was difficult. We started 3-0 down, and for freshmen that
is not easy, but they really, really acquitted themselves upstairs really well."
With Stancu out, Joffe was forced to also juggle his singles lineup. He
inserted Mamalat at the No. 6 line, and playing in only her second singles
match in dual competition, the Philadelphia native gave the Aggies a 2-0 lead
with a 6-2, 6-2 victory over Leatu at the No. 6 line.
"That match became very close at the end and we are thankful for the 'W',
but in a funny way it allowed us to get Anna Mamalat a match at No. 6 and she
really acquitted herself well," Joffe said. "She beat a girl who actually had
played at Vanderbilt last year very, very handily, so where we lose having one
of our top doubles and singles players, we gain by getting other people in there,
because we are a relatively a young team with four freshmen in there."
Sanchez-Quintanar, ranked No. 6 in the nation, was once again
unstoppable and improved to 6-0 at No. 1 singles as she disposed of 12th-ranked
Burgic, 6-2, 6-2, to put A&M ahead, 3-0.
Although A&M had won first sets on four of the six courts, Baylor
was getting back into contention. Where the Aggies' next point would come from,
if it happened at all, would turn into a mystery as Baylor built second-set
leads in each of the remaining four matches until Hristov made an amazing
comeback to clinch the victory.
Hristov had cruised to a 6-0 first-set win and built leads of 4-0 and
5-1 in the second set against Biryukova at No. 5 singles before Biryukova took
command. The Baylor freshman won five consecutive games to take a 6-5 lead.
Hristov won the next game to tie the score and force a tiebreaker, but Biryukova
jumped out to a daunting 6-1 lead in the seven-point tiebreaker. Hristov,
however, began to chip away, winning the next five points to even the score at
6-6. Hristov fought off another set point to tie the score at 7-7 and then took
her first lead of the tiebreaker at 8-7. Hristov then won the match on the
ensuing play as her lunging backhand return narrowly went over after skimming the
net, and Biryukova hit into the net to end the match.
"I was up 6-0, 5-1 and the girl just started playing strange balls and
she was slicing a lot," Hristov recalled. "She was starting just to play the
strangest game ever, and I lost myself during the set. Suddenly I woke up and I
was down 6-5 and in the tiebreaker I was down 6-1 and I kind of started to work
hard and come back into the match and I won."
A&M's Nazari Urbina had split sets with Kisialeva, 6-1, 1-6 at No.
2 singles when Hristov clinched. At No. 3 singles, Sun had lost her first set
to Horter, 7-5, and trailed 2-1 in the second set when play was stopped. Ines
Deheza also found herself trailing at No. 4 singles, where Generette had won
the first set, 7-6 (2) and held a 4-3 lead in the second set before Hristov
made her comeback and clinched the winning point for the second consecutive time.
"In the context of the match, the score line is going to read that we
beat Baylor 4-0, but we were in some hotly contested matches," Joffe said. "We
were down a set on two of the courts. We had split sets on the other court, so
it was much needed and very fortunate that Stefania pulled it out. Speaking of
Harry Houdini, this is the second match in a row, she came back from 4-2 in the
third to clinch the match against Michigan last week, so Hristov one way or
another has found a way to win."
Baylor suffers its fourth consecutive loss -- all against Top 25
opponents -- and falls to 4-8.
"It was hard to play like a real quality match in any of the matches,
but based on the set of circumstances we were dealt, our kids played quite well,"
Joffe added. "That bodes well, and probably it will be less windy come the weekend,
and I fully expect us to play even better."
A&M, which was picked to win the SEC Western
Division according to a preseason poll of the league's head coaches, trails the
all-time series against the Gamecocks, 7-1, although the teams have not met
since 1995.
A&M concludes its longest home stand of the season Sunday, March 3
against defending national champion, SEC preseason favorite and fourth- ranked Florida.
First serve against the Gators is slated for 12 p.m.
Free live video and scoring
will be available on AggieAthletics.com. Aggie fans also
can keep up to date with the A&M women's tennis team on Twitter by
following @AggieWTEN or on Facebook at: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn#!/pages/Aggie-Womens-Tennis/143874782434654
No. 6 Texas
A&M 4, No. 24 Baylor 0
February 27,
P. Mitchell Tennis Center
Station, Texas
1. #6 Cristina Sanchez-Quintanar
(TAMU) def. #12 Ema Burgic (BU), 6-2,
2. #67 Nazari Urbina (TAMU) vs. Victoria Kisialeva
(BU), 6-1, 1-6 unfinished
3. Wen Sun (TAMU) vs. #113 Megan Horter (BU),
5-7, 1-2 unfinished
4. Ines Deheza (TAMU) vs. Kiah Generette (BU),
6-7 (2), 3-4 unfinished
5. Stefania Hristov (TAMU) def. Maria Biryukova (BU),
6-0, 7-6 (7)
6. Anna Mamalat (TAMU) vs. Alex Leatu (BU), 6-2,
Doubles (Texas A&M wins the point)
1. #23 Burgic/Kisialeva (BU) def. Sanchez-Quintanar/Sun
2. I. Deheza/Paula Deheza (TAMU) def. Biryukova/Horter (BU),
3. Hristov/Mamalat (TAMU) def. Generette/Leatu (BU),
of finish
Doubles: 2, 1, 3
Singles: 6, 1, 5
Texas A&M: 6-1
Baylor: 4-8


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After a long week of work, Frank grabs his clubs and heads to the golf course for some needed R&R. After a few holes Frank catches up to a man and a gorilla standing on the par 5. Frank finds this odd, but strolls up and sets his ball up to tee off.
The man with the gorilla looks at Frank and says "Well hi there friend, my name is Steve and this here is JoJo, the best golfer in the world." Frank can't help it and bursts out laughing. "Who in the world has ever heard of a golfing gorilla? That is the most absurd thing I've ever heard." Steve lets slip a wry smile and says, "Well friend, I'm a betting man. I bet JoJo can out golf you for the rest of the course, say 500 dollars?" Frank can't believe his luck, sure that he can easily beat a gorilla at a game of golf. "It's a bet!" And the two men shake on it.
"JoJo likes to go first, if that's okay with you friend?" Asked Steve. Frank nodded. JoJo walks over to his bag of clubs, mangles around and eventually pulls out a putter. Frank starts chuckling to himself thinking he just made some easy money. "How long is this hole, about 500 yards?" asked Steve. Frank nodded in agreement. JoJo pranced around his ball for a while, and started scratching his back with the putter. By now Frank was doing all he could to stop from laughing.
JoJo finally focused on his ball, took the putter in his one meaty hand and smacked the ball as hard as he could, landing just next to the hole on the green. Frank's face turned white. "Told you JoJo was good! 499 yard hit I'd say." said Steve.
Frank was shaking with nerves now. He stepped up and hit his ball less than a quarter way to the green. "Seems JoJo got you nervous friend, tell you what. If you want you can give me 250 now and we will call the bet square." Frank knew he'd never be able to hit as far as JoJo and gave Steve the money.
"Care to finish the game friend?" Frank, already dejected about losing 250 dollars, figured at least he could say he played with the world's greatest golfer and agreed to finish. Frank managed to sink his ball in 5 more hits, one over par. JoJo stepped up to the green, determination written on his simian face, the slightest tap ready to sink the ball in the hole.
He grabbed the putter out of his golf bag, took it in his meaty hand, and whacked the ball 499 yards.


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Moderators: Tonyblack, Jason, Toothy
rsunjka wrote:Hello fellow readers! I was at a thrift shop today and got to buy Terry's RINCEWIND the wizard. It "appears" to be signed. Since it's a SFBC Fantasy Printing of 1999, I'm wondering if it could have been signed by Mr. Pratchett. I can't find any other signed copies online. What are the chances, huh?
Thanks thud62! That makes a certain degree of sense. I wondered why I hadn't heard of it.thud62 wrote:
'Rincewind the Wizzard' was a US only Science Fiction Book Club publication, in the UK it was called 'The Rincewind Trilogy'.
(They both contained 4 novels - COM, TLF, Sourcery & Eric)
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BCC950 ConferenceCam Enables Small Groups to Collaborate Through Voice and Video on PCs and Mac Computers
The Logitech BCC950 ConferenceCam (Photo: Business Wire)
The BCC950 ConferenceCam features a full HD webcam with motorized pan, tilt and zoom for easily bringing everyone into the picture — either from a control pad on the device or with a convenient remote control. The control pad or the remote can also used to answer calls, end calls, adjust the volume and mute the microphone.
Optimized for Microsoft Lync and Skype Certified, the BCC950 ConferenceCam works with most UC and video platforms. With a wide 78-degree field of view and 180-degree video pan, support for 1080p, 30fps HD through plug-and-play UVC H.264 video technology, and a speakerphone that allows everyone in a meeting to hear and be heard clearly from up to eight feet away, the ConferenceCam helps remove the pain point of groups clustering around a computer to be seen and understood during UC calls. Weighing only 20 ounces, the ConferenceCam can be carried easily around an office, allowing for spontaneous meetings anywhere users can place a computer.
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Tuscarawas News Detail
Joela Jones and Richard Weiss perform in Kent/Blossom Music Festival Faculty Concert July 17Posted Jul. 2, 2013
Cleveland Orchestra members Joela Jones, keyboardist, and Richard Weiss, cellist, will perform in a Kent/Blossom Music Festival Faculty Concert on Wed., July 17. All Kent/Blossom Music Festival Faculty Concerts are held at 7:30 p.m. in Ludwig Recital Hall in the Music and Speech Building, located at 1325 Theatre Drive on the Kent Campus.
Single tickets will go on sale June 3, with adults $15, seniors $13 and students $5. For more information on the Kent/Blossom Music Festival, visit kent.edu/blossom. To purchase tickets call the Kent/Blossom Music Festival office at 330-672-2613 or visit www.kent.edu/blossom. Subscriptions may be purchased with check or credit card (Visa, MasterCard or Discover).
Jones and Weiss will perform such works as "Suite Popular Española for Cello and Piano" by Manuel de Falla, "Trio for Oboe and Bassoon and Piano" by Francis Poulenc and "Piano Quintet in A minor, Op. 84" by Edward Elgar.
Jones and Weiss will be joined by Danna Sundet, oboe; Barrick Stees, bassoon; Ying Fu and Jeffrey Zehngut, violin; and Stanley Konopka, viola.
Joela Jones, principal keyboard of The Cleveland Orchestra, has performed more than fifty different concertos in 200-plus performances with The Cleveland Orchestra. Jones chairs collaborative piano at Kent/Blossom Music Festival, and also teaches at the Cleveland Institute of Music. She has appeared as a soloist with orchestras in cities including Boston, Chicago and Philadelphia.
Richard Weiss, first assistant principal cellist of The Cleveland Orchestra, joined the Kent/Blossom Music faculty in 1985. Weiss was a Kent/Blossom Music scholarship student in 1972. Weiss is also a member of The Cleveland Orchestra Piano Trio, and he coaches the cello sections of the Cleveland Institute of Music Orchestras, the New World Symphony and The Cleveland Orchestra Youth Orchestra.
Ying Fu joined The Cleveland Orchestra at the start of the 2011-12 season. A native of Shanghai, China, Mr. Fu has won prizes in competitions in Europe, China, and the United States. He holds a Bachelor of Music degree from the Shanghai Conservatory and a Master of Music degree from Rice University. He is currently a Doctor of Musical Arts degree candidate at Rice University, studying with Cho-Liang Lin and Sergiu Luca.
Jeffrey Zehngut joined the second violin section of The Cleveland Orchestra in August 2011. Mr. Zehngut previously served as Associate Principal Second Violin of the San Diego Symphony 2005-11 and as Principal Second of the Canton Symphony Orchestra 2002-05. He holds degrees from the Cleveland Institute of Music, where he studied with William Preucil and Paul Kantor.
Stanley Konopka joined The Cleveland Orchestra in 1991 and has been Assistant Principal Viola since 1993. Currently a faculty member at CIM, Mr. Konopka has taught at the Kent/Blossom Music Festival and has performed at the chamber music festivals of Banff, Taos and Pensacola.
Barrick Stees has been assistant principal bassoon of The Cleveland Orchestra since 2001. Mr. Stees has concertized extensively in Europe, South America, and Asia, including a solo tour of Hong Kong and China. His solo appearances include performances with the Hartford Symphony Orchestra, the South Bend Symphony Orchestra, and the Brevard Music Center Orchestra.
Danna Sundet serves as full-time assistant professor of Oboe at Kent State University. She is co-artistic coordinator of the Kent/Blossom Music Festival and is now the musical director of the John Mack Legacy Oboe Camp in Little Switzerland, NC. Danna specializes in performing in Bach Festivals, where she is a featured soloist on the oboe, oboe d'amore and the English Horn.
The Kent/Blossom Music Festival Faculty Concerts feature performances by the high-profile musicians who serve as faculty for the students attending the Kent/Blossom Music Festival summer program, including members of The Cleveland Orchestra.
###For more information contact:
Effie A. Tsengas, email@example.com, 330-672-8398


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It's possible. I don't know if Terry has ever said that's where he got the idea from.Teppic wrote:Just watching a repeat from the H series on Dave.
Sandi Toksvig mentioned Hans Christian Andersen put "I am not dead, I'm asleep" signs next to his bed because he feared being buried alive. Is this where Pratchett got the "I Aten't Dead" idea for Granny Weatherwax from?


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Meet-a-Montrealer: André Ménard
Montréal International Jazz Festival co-founder and artistic director André Ménard has been one of the most influential figures on the Québécois artistic scene for...Read more
Montréal International Jazz Festival co-founder and artistic director André Ménard has been one of the most influential figures on the Québécois artistic scene for...Read more
Montréal has a thriving world beat music scene with concerts in nightclubs by popular local musicians augmented by music festivals with superstar headliners from around the world. Here is a sampling of some of the best the city has to offer: The iconic Club...Read more
LOLA ROSA: HEMPBURGER A staple in the McGill Ghetto neighbourhood for...Read more
When you're not jazzing it up this week, you've got laughs, drama, picnics, acrobatics and even more live music to choose from. Not too shabby, eh? Just another summer...Read more
Anyone who's been to a concert in Montréal will surely recognize...Read more
Sunny days, high-energy nights and strikingly illuminated festival stages make the summer season bright in Montréal. The city ignites with a sparkling line-up of entertainment in July and August – get ready to laugh, dance, groove and be dazzled at these big festivals and...Read more
As July approaches, Montréal continues to be flooded with an almost...Read more
In summer, outdoor pop-up markets emerge all over the city. Craftspeople, producers and farmers offer visitors and Montrealers alike a variety of fresh products and creations handmade with local...Read more
The circus is serious business in Montréal; so much so, we've...Read more
Sure, when you visit Montréal it might feel like you're in Europe — but you're not. Montréal is categorically a Canadian city and, along with the rest of the nation, we most definitely celebrate the Canada Day on July 1. Incidentally, the first day...Read more
During her Sin City era, Montréal was home to some of...Read more
Music is in the air in Montréal this week, not only with the Jazz Fest kicking off at full volume, but also AIM, the three-day music electro fest that...Read more
Your survival is important to us. Not surviving means not getting...Read more
Circus shows come in all shapes and sizes at the 6th edition of MONTRÉAL COMPLÈTEMENT CiRQUE – Expect to be amazed and delighted by international and local performers doing what they do best in a city known to push the limits of circus. EVENT...Read more
Each year in Québec, June 24 is Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day (more commonly...Read more
A who's who of the comedy world, everybody from Margaret Cho to Mike Myers, headlines Montréal's Just For Laughs Festival when the 33rd annual edition kicks off on July...Read more
C'est la Saint-Jean! This week Québec celebrates its national holiday, which,...Read more
Use the hashtag on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook to share your own.
Light it up! #bbq time! #mtlmoments #kirkland https://t.co/taZA9HcjuA


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On the Nerdery blog today there's a new post about the recent Minnesota PHP User Group's latest meeting where the topics were "When SQL Meets Developers" and "Message Queues & Distributed Job Processing".
In their May meeting, the Minnesota PHP User Group heard two talks on "When SQL Meets Documents" [above] and "Message Queues & Distributed Job Processing" [below]. MNPHP meets once a month at The Nerdery's office in Bloomington.
Both of the presentations were recorded - you can find the videos over on Vimeo: SQL Meets Developers and Message Queues.


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Manage Booking is a suite of features which will allow you to conveniently edit and update information after making your booking.
First Name:*
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Jet Airways now introduces "Zero Penalty Fees" for changes or cancellations within 24 hours of booking on jetairways.com or Jet Airways mobile app.
Now enjoy complete peace of mind with the freedom to change or cancel your travel itinerary within 24 hours of booking.
To cancel or amend your booking, simply use the Manage Booking facility on jetairways.com
Now select and book your meal online before you fly and savour your selection onboard.
Simply choose your preferred meal while booking online on jetairways.com or alternately use our Manage Booking feature in case you have already booked your ticket.
You may choose to amend or update your meal preference up to 48 hours prior to flight departure.
We look forward to providing you with a unique and memorable dining experience across the skies.
If you have booked your ticket through a travel agent, please check for the airline Booking Reference (PNR) on your eTicket or with your travel agent.
Reissuing of tickets online is not available for promotional bookings and for changes from a higher to lower fare(s).
Click here to know more.
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Because we know it is important to you, most orders are shipped fast within 24 hrs on business days by Priority Mail!
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Spain's Best Bullfighting Rings13 Photos
Love it or hate it, the spectacle of bullfighting is ingrained in Spanish culture. Successful matadors are bigger celebrities than rock stars, and many of the arenas are architectural gems.
Get Inside 'Outlander' on a Tour Through Scotland15 Photos
It may not be possible to travel back in time like Claire Beauchamp Randall in the Starz series Outlander, but fans can certainly follow her footsteps across the Scottish countryside. The show, which is based on Diana Gabaldon's books, is filmed on location in Scotland as it follows World War II nurse Claire and her adventures with Jamie Fraser in the 18th century.
Amazing Spain Tour11 Photos
Explore Spain's east coast and southern region, including Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Granada, Cordoba and Seville.
Indianapolis City Guide20 Photos
Welcome to Indianapolis! Plan a trip using Travel Channel's recommendations on where to stay, where to eat and what to do in Indy.
Eric Clapton's Unplugged Destinations11 Photos
Check out our list of the most iconic destinations that helped cement Eric Clapton's place in rock 'n' roll history.
We Were Here: 12 Places Where Tourists Can Leave Their Mark12 Photos
As 2 American tourists recently learned, you can get in trouble for carving your initials into the wall of the Colosseum in Rome. There are places, however, where you are allowed to leave your mark as you travel. So get a pen, some spray paint and even your chewed gum ready when you visit these tourist spots.
Tour the Nation's Capital17 Photos
Take a tour of Washington, DC, hitting both tried-and-true tourist attractions and under-the-radar landmarks, from the Vietnam Veterans Memorial to the US National Arboretum.
World's Amazing Architecture10 Photos
Take a look at the world's coolest architecture, from ancient Greece to modern-day Dubai.
Street Performers Around the World11 Photos
You've seen them: fire walkers, gold fixtures and levitators. From California to India, street performers make their living entertaining tourists and locals. Take a closer look at these modern marvels
Most Outrageous Pastimes Across the Globe14 Photos
Go off the beaten path to find out what makes these amazing cultures unique. From a Naked Man Festival in Japan to an Ice Marathon in Russia, these are things you will find in only 1 place on Earth.


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Although some of us don't want to admit it, it's time to start shopping for holiday gifts. Sure, there's still plenty of time to find all of the presents you need but as we all know, the more we put off buying those gifts, the more difficult it becomes to find them. To avoid settling on less than average last minute gifts, buy high quality gifts for better prices now. That happens when you shop our holiday selection because, for a limited time, you can get a 20% discount off any of our holiday items. There are literally hundreds of excellent gifts to choose from including the following five possibilities:
- Frederic, the Little Fisherman of Avignon: This beautiful little statue will be adored by anyone with a backyard pond.
- The Veiled Maiden Sculptural Bust: This creative statue is an excellent gift and work of art for those who appreciate fine sculptures. It also costs less than $50.
- Fiona, the Flower Fairy Sculpture: For less than $100, you can put a big smile on the face of anyone who appreciates realistic, high quality garden statuary.
- Winthrop Court Wall Niche: This beautiful, decorative replica of an English antique adds an elegant touch to any home.
- Hebe, the Goddess of Youth: Buy this striking, classic, beautiful statue for friends and family who collect Greek garden statues or would love to start a collection of fine garden statuary.
Enjoy 20% off items in our holiday gift collection!
This sale cannot be combined with other offers.


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I've read a Discworld Novel, a time ago, in which there is a quote about "ideas flying constantly in the universe, and only when it hits the brain of a human it can be expressed and can be used. Because when it would hit a stone, the stone couldn't do anything with it."
Does anybody know which novel it is in, and the does anybody know the correct phrase.
Thanks in advance.


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|Jose Bautista admires a shot at the 19th Annual Charity Golf Classic in support of Jays Care Foundation.
|Photo Credit: Michelle Prata
To celebrate the 20th anniversary of Jays Care Foundation's Charity Golf Classic, we're joining forces with the best of the best in Blue Jays history!
On Thursday, June 11, 2015, head out on the links at The Club at Bond Head for a day of golf with Blue Jays fans, players, alumni and front office staff in support of Jays Care Foundation.
To start off the day, each golfer will take home amazing prizes and Blue Jays swag. While on the course, participants will have the opportunity to sample products courtesy of our event sponsors and enter the Big League Raffle for a chance to win many exclusive trips and experiences!
After the round, golfers will head to the 19th Hole Cocktail reception where guests have the chance to peruse the silent auction and mingle with a who's who of Toronto Blue Jays personalities, talents and special alumni guests while enjoying delicious food and beverages.
Sponsorship package are now available.
If you have questions, or to register for the 20th Annual Charity Golf Classic, contact Jenny Le at 416-341-1659 or email@example.com.


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Find accommodations in Midpines with the hotel list provided below. Find cheap and/or discounted hotel rates in or near Midpines, CA for your personal leisure or group travel. We list the best Midpines, California hotel and motel rooms. Browse the Midpines area hotels to find the perfect lodging! Please use the provided map of the Midpines hotels.The Midpines center point is about 4 miles from John C Fremont Hosptial and 5 miles from Mariposa Museum and History Center.
Midpines Hotels/Motels & Accommodations
Next 20 Midpines Hotels > [1 - 20 of 33]
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Roland JD-Xi$599.005 stars
Dave Smith Instruments Pro 2$1,999.005 stars
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13th Dec 2013 | 11:00
A huge improvement on the classic original Pulse, at a great price. In a word ...
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15th Aug 2012 | 11:57
An evolutionary upgrade, the E4D subtly improves the E3 in all the right places.
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An already powerful synth goes interstellar. Registered users - get it now!
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18th Nov 2010 | 14:20
The Nord Piano isn't cheap and it's missing some dials, but it feels and sounds ...


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Re-defining the nonfiction art form, Babies joyfully captures on film the earliest stages of the journey of humanity that are at once unique and universal to us all. The film simultaneously follows four babies around the world -- from birth to first steps. The children are, in order of on-screen introduction: Ponijao, who lives with her family near Opuwo, Namibia; Bayarjargal, who resides with his family in Mongolia, near Bayanchandmani; Mari, who lives with her family in Tokyo, Japan; and Hattie, who resides with her in San Francisco, Calif.
Rated PG for cultural and maternal nudity throughout.
Visit the official site
Cast: Bayarjargal, Hattie, Mari, Ponijao
Produced by: Alain Chabat, Amandine Billot, Christine Rouxel
Directed by: Thomas Balmès
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Running time: 1hr 19min
Opens: May 07, 2010 Limited


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Sending VoteClick to Vote19%Comedy Writer (SNL/i>)
Sending VoteClick to Vote56%Host of Weekend Update (SNL)
Sending VoteClick to Vote24%Movie Actor (New Year's Eve)
- Channing Tatum's Magic Mike XXL is finally in theaters! Which of his past movies is your favorite?
- Demi Lovato's new song "Cool For The Summer" just dropped! What do you think of the new track?
- Independence Day is all about having fun and celebrating! Which song is your go-to for July 4th?
- It's July 4th this Saturday! What patriotic movie will you be watching to celebrate?
- SNL star Vanessa Bayer was all about the Friends impressions on Jimmy Kimmel Live! Which character did she impersonate best?
- Top Gun 2 is actually happening and both Arrow star Stephen Amell and The Flash actor Robbie Amell (cousins!) want roles. Who would you like to see in the action sequel?
- The O.C. is coming back - as a musical! Which character are you most excited to see come to life on stage?
- Teen Wolf season 5 premieres tonight on MTV! Which character are you most excited to see?
- Janet Jackson made a huge comeback at the BET Awards last night! What song of hers is your favorite?
- The BET Awards brought out the best of the best in entertainment! Which celeb had the best red carpet style?