text:
- Scott Armstrong
- Auckland
- New Zealand
This conversation is closed.
Does it really matter?
There is a wonderful ongoing battle between religion and science.
Although the two are often pitted together as if they were alternate answers to the same question (which they are not), both schools of belief do put forward theories about the origins of existence. Both are equally far-fetched and interesting.
My question is: does it matter?
Would it help anyone to know, without a doubt, how the universe began? Isn't knowing that a bit like knowing the exact circumstances of one's own death?
Why do people feel the need to choose a camp?
Personally, I don't mind what people believe. Convince me. GO!
Harald Jezek
Oct 23 2013: Without our quest for knowledge we wouldn't be where we are now.
- +4
Asking questions about nature, whether that is how an organism works or how the universe came into being is not just to satisfy pointless curiosity but helps us understand how everything is interrelated.
I have this thirst for knowledge however I understand that many people don't care, which is fine with me.
As to the difference between religions and science:
There is a fundamental difference. Science is based on evidence that leads to theories which get stronger the more evidence supports them. This doesn't mean that every theory is a reflection of the truth, but it still beats religion which requires no proof nor evidence for anything.
Oct 23 2013: how would knowledge of our origins, one way or the other, affect someone like you? Would there still be a quest for knowledge or would that be undermined by certainty..?
Harald Jezek
Oct 23 2013: The knowledge of our origin if taken isolated from anything else wouldn't effect me. What effects me are the results obtained through our quest for knowledge.
- +1
For example, when people believed the earth was flat, it made no sense to try to circumnavigate it. Circumnavigation of our planet only became a meaningful objective once we understood that the earth is round.
The same is true for all knowledge. Obtaining knowledge open new doors. Which ones it opens we can't say until we obtain this knowledge.Oct 25 2013: No it doesn't.......but curiosity doesn't always look for what matters what not.
I also don't mind if one lives with her/his own belief without bothering others.........Oct 23 2013: Why I like science is for the fact it is built on ideas that can be proven wrong and changed and is mostly accepted as so. Religion is different it is built on beliefs and people generally can not handle these being proven wrong so are some times willing to die for them.
Is it not better to have an idea than a belief?
Oct 23 2013: Do you believe what you just said?
Should I?
Oct 23 2013: its just an idea I had of why I like science more
Oct 24 2013: Yes, I see that it is your idea.
But you ended it with a question.
But, like Colleen says below, some folks do not like their beliefs challenged.
And apparently some folks do not like their ideas challenged either.Oct 24 2013: its more a question of what you are willing to die for so can we not change beliefs in to ideas they tend to be easier to change than beliefs
Oct 24 2013: I think what I was trying to get you to realize is that our ideas and our beliefs are based on our perceptions.
- +1
Many people on TED take pride in believing that they just "don't know".....and they are happy with that.
Others, have an open mind and have a set of ideas and beliefs but are willing to adapt them as more and more knowledge becomes available to them.
Others found their 'truth'...ideas....beliefs......and go about trying to convince the rest.
I think that people whose minds are open, whether they are religious or scientific, will change their ideas and beliefs with the right proof.
And I think people with a closed mind, will remain with their entrenched belief and idea system regardless.
This is mho of course. I could be wrong......Oct 24 2013: I agree Mary, that our ideas and beliefs are based on our perceptions, which are often colored by how much information we are willing to explore at any given time.
You say..."others have an open mind and have a set of ideas and beliefs but are willing to adapt them as more and more knowledge becomes available to them".
It appears that we agree on this issue.....I LOVE it!
BTW, I do not perceive Gareth to be trying to convince us of anything. He clearly wrote..."its just an idea I had of why I like science more".Oct 23 2013: I agree Gareth, that some folks do not like their beliefs challenged.Oct 26 2013: While this discussion has wonderfully demonstrated Scott's observation that "There is a wonderful ongoing battle between religion and science" I wonder if the tenor of Scott's question - does it matter if we know our origins? -has been overwhelmed in the discussion?
I suggest that the desire/need to "know" why, or to "know" more, or simply the desire/need to "know" in and of itself, is far more pressing in some people than it is in others. Just as the object of that desire/need 'to know' can easily be more important or relevant to some folks than it is to others.
So, yes Scott, it does matter.
That is it matters to some, white to others it does not. And in that context the answer to your question seems to 'yes it does matter' but if it only matters to one single person, it will still matter, at least to them.
As to "why people choose camps" or take firm positions on issues is a very different conversation.
At some point the feeling or at least the idea that we "are right" about something takes hold and certainty in that rightness can grow or diminish over time. It matters not whether that certainty is pro or con on the issue. It is the certainty that leads to the camps and the larger the population of a particular camp the stronger the certainty is for many of us.
Of course the extreme of this is to be found in the camps where those who believe themselves to be "right" grows into a sense of Righteousness whereby they know they are right and because they are right they are Righteous in their belief. Circular reasoning at its finest. It is this all consuming Righteousness that has been behind almost every atrocity perpetrated throughout human history. Of course that Righteousness has also been behind every advancement of human freedom and personhood we have achieved. Therein lies the conundrum. .
Oct 26 2013: The people of science do not have a sense of righteousness about the theories. We know the theories are most likely wrong. The only place in science where I personally am susceptible to this righteousness thing is where it comes to the method used to pursue this thing that I call common reality. There may be a better process but I sure don't have a clue what it might be. So until someone can come up with a better idea, I'll continue touting the scientific method with vigor. It has worked way better than any alternative. We can prove things are wrong, we cannot prove them right.
So, in terms of 'certainty' or righteousness you are discussing the religious crowd, even their pros. The scientific crowd does not play the game of certainty in the same sense. At least not the pros. The two groups are not equivalent in any sense that I can think of.Oct 28 2013: i blame people not religion.
i have always found it strange that people are quick to blame religion for conflicts throughout history and yet nobody blames the scientific method that has lead to the development of weapons that are instrumental in the carrying out of those same conflicts. most probably because religion tends to elicit are far stronger emotive response in people than science.
i don't blame science either - again, it's people that are the problem..
Oct 28 2013: The voice of reason..........one of my favorite sounds on earth.Oct 24 2013: Good question Scott.
Religion and science are both here to stay, so both camps might as well try to understand each other. After all, they both represent, in some way, all that the brain is capable of conceiving. So why not collaborate?
Personally, I'm very happy not knowing how the universe began and what human consciousness is all about. It frees me up to think my own thoughts without being told by someone else how 'certain' they are about what happened out there (eg because "spooky action at a distance" has now moved from religion to science) and who we are, (eg because an fMRI scan told them so).
I have reservations about what religion has become - a politicised and commercialised shadow of what it should have been. I'm not religious, but have a consuming interest in all things philosophical, metaphysical and spiritual - because they are the 'outriders' or 'scouts' of human knowledge.
There are too many examples where the philosophical, the metaphysical and the spiritual have got there first, in the initial stages of intuition, with science trailing behind, held back by its own addiction to 'certainty' and an almost self-destructive cynicism towards what the other half of the brain is doing.
In thinking about these big questions spiritually, other times scientifically - and even attempting to justify one with the other, seems to me as though a natural hierarchy is forming between the two where collaboration is at all possible: It feels more natural and powerful to uphold spiritual thoughts with science, and much less so vice versa.
Lamentably, the division between the two seems to be widening, if anything.
Oct 24 2013: While science certainly seems be here to stay, I suspect that religion - that is organized and institutionalized religion - will continue to be diminished in importance and value by those who are daily being empowered to determine their own spirituality and connections to a higher power.
Science is an ever evolving form of knowledge while organized religion remains stuck in the antiquity and rhetoric of its superstitious past. .The current roman catholic Pope appears to be the latest convert to this premise but given how many still hold to the "old ideas" hi has a long uphill struggle ahead. .
Oct 24 2013: I'm not a neuroscientist but this adherence to belief systems might have something to do with how our brain is built.
Our brain actually didn't evolve over time such as other organs did, but nature , for some reason simply built new elements on top of the older ones.
This means that behaviors such as superstition or belief in the supernatural is just a relic still present due to our ancient parts of the brain.Oct 26 2013: Hi William,
I think you're right, that spirituality will become more an autonomous, personal thing at the cost of institutionalised and organised religions. If religion wantonly drives or alters the course of politics, then it ceases to be a religion in my view.
However, I partly disagree with your statement: "Science is an ever evolving form of knowledge while organized religion remains stuck in the antiquity and rhetoric of its superstitious past" . I think science is also stuck because of its arrogant dismissal of many essential parts of our own consciousness - the evolved and ancient need for spiritual stimulation being one of them.
I can't quite decide why this is, when science freely researches and reveals hypotheses and probabilities in quantum mechanics for example, yet dismisses equally bizarre aspects of the human condition out of hand, as 'pseudoscience'. Why is that?
Oct 26 2013: Absolutely, there is an ancient wisdom that suggests 'science advances only with the deal of the current adherents of popular thought'., again Copernicus comes to mind along with the current Pope :)
As to your last concern of "why this is..." I think you have already answered your own quest with the observation of "arrogant dismissal". By that I mean that all predators are arrogant. They rule their habitat. And humans are just another predatory species, one that has an awful lot of members who arrogantly seek to rule a variety of things including the environment, people and events.
wayne uejio
Oct 23 2013: No it does not. I lean toward science but so long as others do not force their beliefs on me, I am ok. I also will not force my beliefs on others.
- +2
Joshua Bond
Oct 23 2013: The "science vs religion" debate is in essence a non-debate.
- +2
The only people who "do battle" on this topic have not yet matured enough in their thinking.
Both are pursuits after "the Truth"; there is one truth to be found. True is true; and false is false.
The current meeting-point between these two differing approaches to truth of religion and science can be found in "consciousness research".
Peter Law
Oct 23 2013: Where we came from doesn't really matter. If we are headed somewhere, that does matter. Especially if we have a choice of destinations.
- +2
Oct 23 2013: But the choices might not be what you believe they are......and that is why we have to keep an open mind.
Oct 24 2013: Correct
:-)Oct 23 2013: Hi Peter, good to see you are still here ;-)
I wouldn't worry so much about where we are heading to. So far there is not a sliver of evidence indicating anything, beside decomposition, happens to us after death.
In case new evidence appears we can revisit this topic;
Oct 24 2013: Hi Harald,
I'm not decomposing yet. (Your wrong BTW)
Oct 24 2013: Hi Peter, I'm aware of that, otherwise I'd have to assume you are a ghost in which I obviously not believe.
What I'm wrong in ? That we all eventually decompose ? Sorry to break you the news, but it will happen to all of us, even to YECs ;-)Oct 25 2013: Hi Harald.
Our bodies certainly decompose, but our spirits are eternal.
Our bodies are just a precise collection of atoms. If God was smart enough to make them in the first place, it should be no problem to replace them. IMHO.
Oct 25 2013: I know Peter, that's what happens in your world. My world is a different one, free of the supernatural, mysticism, witchcraft and superstition.
Life is pretty good in my world. No worries about some angry god punishing his sheep, no worry about an afterlife and how to make sure that satan isn't using us as eternal fuel in hell. We also don't have to beg to a god or negotiate with him to help us when we face challenges because we know that the only ones responsible to deal with life's challenges are we.
You really should try my world !Oct 26 2013: Been in your world Harald. It's a Dead End,
Oct 26 2013: Sure it's a dead end because once we die it's like pulling the plug. Everything is gone. That's true for me, for you and everybody else.
Just because you don't like to face reality, doesn't make it any less real. You are only kidding yourself.Oct 27 2013: Oh I don't think I'm kidding myself Harald. But, even if you're right, what have I lost? Believing in eternity enhances this life. However, if you're wrong, then you do have a problem.
From your question re immortal bodies, I deduce you don't know a lot about the bible. Maybe worth checking it out.
Oct 28 2013: You are right, if you are wrong, you'll never will get a chance to know you are wrong neither will you be able to regret it. So, from this point of view, your bet is a safe one.
As for my point of view, the overwhelming evidence shows that I'm right, nevertheless in the unlikely case I'm wrong, I'll deal with my mistake when time comes.Oct 26 2013: People drive their car differently if they think they are being watched, or not.
Although it seems obvious that we can believe anything we want, it is a given that whatever we believe influences what we do, and how we do it.
Personally I believe that both, religion and science, should acknowledge their strengths but also their limits. I also believe that the more someone tries to combine both sides, the closer to truth we come.
Science and religion are both based on interpretation, but are looking in different directions. Science should only be based on the interpretation of physical and material evidence. Religion should only be based on the interpretation of Revelation. To me that means science cannot tell me what to believe, and religion cannot tell me what to eat.
The more we believe in a higher power, the more we believe in a creation. Which should make us realize that both science and religion are from the same Source.
Whatever we do, we do for a reason and why we do things, depends on what we believe, including our driving :)Oct 26 2013: Religion is a set of ideas that a person 'believes' based upon what resonates nicely within the brain. The methodology of religion is to verify and search for evidence supporting a given 'belief'. Religion is a system that justifies what the brain 'believes'; what feels right and good, what resonates based upon what one can see and hear and feel without any external measurement. Religion bases on the concept that what one sees, hears, feels is absolute and real truth. We have come to know that what the the brain interprets is often wrong. The tables are indeed the same size and the colors are the same. The fact that you see them as different has nothing to do with reality. Your are seeing something that does not exist.
Science is a set of ideas that a person does not 'believe'; they are the best concept, so far, based upon measurable evidence regardless of how it 'resonates' within the brain. The methodology of science is to disprove the ideas rather than verifier them. Science has recognized that the brain only presents to consciousness its 'best guess' and that best guess is very often totally and completely wrong. The ideas of science are based on verification through measurement. We are actively looking for those areas where our brain has misinterpreted
Perhaps the greatest breakthrough in humans understanding of thought and the way to understand reality of all time, was the realization that one can not 'prove' things by demonstrating the supporting evidence; the religions thought process. This is theoretically impossible, one can 'prove' anything regardless of how ridiculous this way. Basing our intellectual constructs on our emotions has been throughly rejected by science, as it should be. It is fully embraced by religion, indeed it is the foundation of religion.
Does it really matter? Yes, it does. It matters profoundly.
No, science and religion are NOT 'different schools of belief'.Oct 26 2013: "Why do people feel the need to choose a camp?"
Perhaps it could be similar to what has happened in my life.
I have had experiences that cannot be proven, I cannot prove them, I don't need to,
nor does anyone else need to disprove them. They don't prove me right regardless of
which camp I may have a foot in, nor do they prove the other camp wrong, if I am standing
with my legs spread, a foot in each camp. But, I cannot deny them. They are based entirely
in and on awareness, consciousness, an area science does not and cannot tread.
You cannot build a bridge on faith, but everyone crosses them in faith they will remain up.
There is empirical evidence. A scratch heals because IT heals. There is no conscious connection to this event by the person with the scratch. Looking at the cells involved will never allow any scientist to point at something and say, "there, that is intelligence. That is how IT knows how to heal. There, that is power, that is how IT is able to heal the cut. And there, that is love. That is why IT heals." But, everyone who has ever lived, is living and perhaps those who are yet to live, can point to nothing and say, "IT works! IT really does." That is the empirical evidence of the scratch.
It would seem there must be intelligence somewhere in all this, behind it in some way
Both science and religion tell us there is more than the material. They are right.
Science attempts to verify and prove while the claims of religion are based first on the acceptance
that their books are truly "thee resource books of all time."
If anything, I prefer "spirituality" as I don't think religion has contributed "balance" to life at all. Maybe to mentally ill people but they remain so because of religious beliefs.
It does matter. If science can answer "how?", if they're worth it, they will then turn to "why?"
They can't answer that one.
Personally, I believe in nothing. Have to start there if everything came from nothing, right?
Then it sounds like a belief in god.
Oct 26 2013: "Science attempts to verify and prove" This is totally and completely the antithesis of what science is.Oct 26 2013: Hi Random, I agree with most of what you say, except that I'm mentally ill. :)
You may not be familiar with the religion that I support, but it is spiritual first and based on the natural later. It is based on the spiritual level, or meaning, of the Bible and so makes all discrepancies come together and so make sense. The big balance it brings to life is by the fact that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are One and the Same.
I also like your idea that we cannot build a bridge on faith. We also believe that faith, by itself, is nothing.Oct 25 2013: Harald; That depends on the questions you're asking. You do realize that there a vast range of beliefs and the Bible is only one text of one religion, which isn't even the largest religion world wide.
I didn't say evidence through faith to support faith. I said we use faith as our approach to find answers to the questions that faith asks. Just as scientist use science not to support science or justify it, but to find answers to the questions science asks.
Saying you respect people of faith "even though it's pointless" is itself disrespectful.
We may be at an impasse here, because you seem not to have understood my initial proposition that facts and truth aren't the same thing. Are you asking me to use science to prove the truths of my faith? I thought only "bad" scientists did that? :-)
What I can do is to say what my personal creed is. These are the personal truths to which my faith has led me. There is insufficient room to explain my life, which has led me to these truths of faith, however. Perhaps it will give you an idea of what I mean by truth as a personal thing. Do me a favor, though. Don't start trying to apply science to these truths or to challenge them; state your creed, what it is you believe, not what you don't believe.
I believe that everything that is is of God and is God.
I believe in a God of infinite possibility and endless variety; who cannot be defined or contained by all the thoughts and words and deeds of humankind; who speaks to us in every tongue and many voices; who has created of God a living, evolving, rational universe.
I believe in the gift of free will, the power of unconditional love and the grace of forgiveness.
I'm not sure how you decide whether any particular piece of knowledge is "important." Sounds like a judgment based on something you believe. Since your list of "important" knowledge is certainly a personal one rather than a universal scientific truth, it must be a personal truth. What belief supports it
Oct 25 2013: I picked the bible just as 1 example, but if a belief cannot be backed up with evidence than for all practical purpose it is meaningless.
Truth must be absolute. For example, it is true that the earth revolves around the sun. This truth is not optional or object to interpretation.
You speak about your personal "truth". There is no such thing as personal truth. What you call personal truth is just your belief.
If you talk about god (and we would have to define what you mean with the term "god") you tell us what god means to you. This has no meaning to me or anybody else, but you. No, I'm not applying science to god, because science doesn't deal with god(s).
Free will: this is still a question debated in philosophy. To what degree do we have free will ? But that it is very different topic and there were already many discussions about that here on TED.
As to my comment about "pointless", This is not meant disrespectful, but if you believe in something that turns out not to exist, your investment of belief might very well have been pointless.
Knowledge: I don't mind a particular piece of knowledge. Gaining knowledge in general is important because the more knowledge I have the better my understanding of the world I live in.
I admit however, that there are people who don't care about gaining knowledge which is fine with me.
Oct 25 2013: Truth is not absolute. Fact is absolute (when the fact can be accurately observed). That the Earth orbits the Sun is a fact. It would be true even if we had not observed it. Your claim that truth is absolute is a definition of truth, and therefore personal. It reflects your belief about things.
Faith has many practical purposes. What we believe is the basis for how we choose to act in the world. Do you believe that there are things in the universe which cannot be observed, perhaps will never be able to be observed by us? Do you believe that there is important knowledge to be gained from art, music, poetry, literature or drama? What if that poetry is the product of the answers to questions that are explored through faith? Much, if not most, of our knowledge of what it means to be human is not subject to scientific proof. Which is why what I believe about what it means to be human is going to be different from what you believe.
Historically, faith and science have worked together to help us learn who we are, individually, collectively; as in the great cathedrals, where the architecture is both art and science informed by faith. You define knowledge and truth too narrowly for me. It's not about people not caring about gaining knowledge. It's about having as many strategies as possible for gaining knowledge. If your way of knowing is limited to what you can prove scientifically, then there are things you will never know and your understanding of the world will thus be limited. I would also contend that a significant amount of what you know is in fact based on belief. Faith is not limited to religion. It exists even where one does not believe in a god. Does your trust in science require that you believe that the universe is wholly observable, and that given enough time and the right tools, humans might be able to understand it completely?
What you mean by "God" is also a personal truth with meaning only for you. But it's as important in this discussion as mine.
Oct 25 2013: David, if something is a fact than it is obviously true.
According to Webster dictionary:
"the body of real things, events, and facts" or "the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality "
You can't just redefine terms and expect people understand what you are talking about.
There are degrees of belief. If no evidence for a certain belief exists, this belief is the same as fantasy. With evidence increasing, a belief increasingly becomes more likely to reflect a part of reality.
For example, we can't observe a black hole directly, however, there is abundant evidence that black holes exist. So, in this case I do believe in black holes because this belief is supported.
On the other hand, believing in a god for me is meaningless because no evidence points at his existence.
" most, of our knowledge of what it means to be human is not subject to scientific proof" this makes no sense to me. Please provide an example.
A cathedral has nothing to do with faith, beside the fact that an organization living off faith
I don't know in what sense you are using the term faith. I can have faith in my capabilities to do certain things but I have no faith in supernatural (e.g. gods) beings, mysticism, witchcraft, superstition, etc.
So explain how you are using the term faith.
For all practical purpose, anything you can't prove scientifically or at least predict, for example based on mathematical calculations, is meaningless because it means that you can't measure nor observe it in any way, which means you have no way to actually know that whatever you believe exists actually does exist.
Everything we know about the world and the universe was obtained through scientific inquiry. Nothing was discovered reading holy books or through supernatural powers.
As to the meaning of god, for me it's not different than the meaning of any other character in fairy tails.Oct 25 2013: We are at an impasse. If it is truly your belief that anything not supported by scientific inquiry is meaningless, then we have too little common ground to find agreement in. Meaning isn't simply out there to be read in the dictionary. I have defined how I am using fact and truth and faith. You insist on rigidity and narrowness of meaning. But all language, even the language of science is metaphorical, not just denotative or referential.
Humans don't discover meaning, they create it. When you discount the meaning of things not scientific and the knowledge thus gained, you miss half of what it is to be human. That's why you don't understand what I mean when I say that most of what it means to be human isn't subject to scientific proof. But I thank you for the discussion.
Oct 25 2013: Terms we use must be used according to the meaning it has. If you talk about a car, everybody knows what you are talking about, but if your personal definition of a car is actually a bicycle you will have problems to get yourself understood.
This has nothing to do with being rigid.
I didn't say that we discover meaning. Meaning is something subjective.
I discount everything for which existence doesn't exist evidence because otherwise I'd live in a world of fantasy.
If you say that you don't need proof or at least evidence for something to consider, where do you put the limits ? Based on such view, there is no difference between a belief in the existence of a god, green little men on mars or Darth Vader.
But with one thing I agree and that is that we don't have much common ground here ;-)Oct 24 2013: This post is out of order. I did something wrong and it posted as a separate entry rather than a reply. I intend it as a response to the thread with Harold Jezek under my previous post.
Science beats faith for what? This isn't a competition. Science beats faith in doing what science does. It is totally useless in doing what faith does. And it's .same the other way around.
And those who are rigid about their faith are not "good" believers, either. You keep saying that faith is unsupported by proof, by which you seem to mean the scientific method, which doesn't apply to faith. That doesn't mean that the faithful don't search for evidence of faith, it's just that they approach the evidence through faith rather than through science.
Why can you not respect that?
BTW, one definition of religion might argue that it has three elements: The first is faith ( an approach to the world that seeks to answer questions about our experience of the world); the second is dogma, which is a specific set of conclusions (truths) arrived at through faith and particular to a specific community of faith; and practice, which is a particular religion's ways of applying dogma to the problems of life and the maintenance of the community. None of these is simple. And none is perfect. But ay conflict between them and science is the fault of the practitioners, not the faith. Or the science.
Oct 24 2013: Science beats faith in finding answers to our questions.
"And those who are rigid about their faith are not "good" believers, either"
This is interesting because true believers still believe in the same God people believed in thousands of years ago and, as to my knowledge, there are no revisions to the bible either. So, where do you see any progress ?
"Evidence through faith to support faith" ? This is circular and makes no sense.
Oh, I do respect that people have faith, even if it is pointless. I also would respect somebody's faith in the tooth fairy. I cannot dictate what someone should or should not believe. Many people are doing things that make no sense. This is a personal choice.
"specific set of conclusions (truths) arrived at through faith "
How could you possibly find any truth through faith ? Give me an example what truth was unearthed based on faith rather than the application of scientific processes.
Look back in history, no important knowledge was obtained or discovery made based on unsupported faith.
If you believe otherwise, please provide examples.
Oct 25 2013: Again, see above. I've only just now realized that I can't respond to your replies through the link in my e-mail.
From now on I will log in and reply directly on this site.
Nathan Cook
Oct 24 2013: why are you comparing blind faith ignorance too rigorous investigation.its just silly hearing people say religion is about truth. how is that so. its about following and accepting without question the words of men. you say the words of god but god didnt write them , some humans did.
- +1
Oct 25 2013: i wouldn't call empirical data truth either.
you have an interesting take on following without question - isn't that the same approach a lot of people have to the scientific method? a guy in lab-coat doesn't look too different from a guy in a smock :)
Nathan Cook
Oct 24 2013: one is based on a methodology that requires the testing of physical data for repeatable verification; the other is based on hear say from self proclaimed holy men(a really long time ago) with claims of direct spiritual communication to the one making it possible for revelations of gods will.............its like comparing ignorance to knowledge. and ill just stop right there................Oct 23 2013: Hi Scott......GOOD question!
- +1
I don't mind being in the state of "not knowing", and I also like to take in all available information and explore with open mind and heart. So...knowing all the details of how the universe began, would not change my life experience. To me, life is an exploration, and if I get to another place at another time, I will explore that situation with the same curiosity. At the moment, I am NOW HERE......OH.....wait a minute.....maybe I'm NOWHERE....maybe I'm everywhere....ya never know for sure:>)
Personally, I don't mind what people believe either....as long as those beliefs and practices do not adversely impact other people. Guess I'm not convincing you of anything huh??? Maybe we're in the same camp....don't need to be in a camp??? LOL:>)
Oct 23 2013: it's my opinion that we are all in a state of not knowing and that, at best, we only ever think we know. that seems to be good enough for people to get on with it but i wonder at the real disparity between peoples' mental world views.
I'm a big believer in what we cannot see or understand and that our limited brains are not a curse but a blessing.
I feel that humanity is on the brink of another renaissance - not revolution or destruction..
Oct 23 2013: I agree Scott, that we are all in a state of "not knowing", and sometimes we only "think" we know something. Some people are more accepting of the idea.....some....not so much:>)
I also feel that humanity is on the brink of another renaissance, which is facilitated by our advanced communication systems like TED:>)
Carl Mueller
Oct 24 2013: Not knowing is one thing but wanting to know and looking for the answers and then taking actions will get you in trouble most of the time when politics are involved.
- +1
I know. Just Google me: Carl G. Mueller, Nam 68.
Renaissance? The comfortableness of ignorance is the policy?
Advanced Commutation with dead/dope heads is the same as ignorance?
My Ideology = Life is over rated by the poor and helpless?Oct 23 2013: Hey Scott,
I'm curious, what evidence would you point to that we are on the brink of another renaissance? Certainly there is ample evidence to the contrary. I could certainly expound on that for pages. But I'd love to know more about your evidence to the positive.
Oct 24 2013: Media - the advent of social media has started it already - people are very wise to mass media and the only folk who haven't really understood this are the mass media propagandists themselves.
so we are currently undergoing a communication renaissance - we are mired in the Propaganda Age more than ever, but there is now a forum for dialogue instead of the one-way communication devices like TV, film and radio. This has the confusing effect of "what do I believe" in people who think.
i think we're in the middle of an energy renaissance - admittedly, this will come into full effect once other options have been exhausted - typical humans.
really, i have no evidence other than my faith in people. the bastards might be running the world but not forever..
revolution is no good - you must have an alternative ready to go and people ready to put it in place but it's likely to end up no better (and maybe worse) than current systems of government..Oct 24 2013: Carl Mueller.....there is no reply option for your comment.
"The transitional movement...marked by a humanistic revival of classical influence expressed in a flowering of the arts and literature and the beginnings of modern science; movement or period of vigorous artistic and intellectual activity ;rebirth; revival".
I honestly do not understand the meaning of your comment.Oct 30 2013: Action Center:
FreedomWorks created an Action Center that allows you to easily create letters to the editor and submit them to many new sources. Best of all, the formatting is already set up; you just need to create the content. The Action Center tool allows you to easily and quickly create letters to the editor and saves time and postage. You can access the Action Center at www.action.freedomworks.org
Join a Group and or Start your own:
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Oct 30 2013: Thanks Carl.Oct 23 2013: How are you going to your destination if you don't know where to begin?
A house with a strong foundation will stand firm for a long time. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
A person who has doubts is thinking about two different things at the same time and can't make up his mind about anything.
To have questions and to be curious is okay as long as we are looking for answer and rest with it if you think that answer is genuine.
Oct 23 2013: Hi Doris,
How about beginning here and now? I agree.....to have questions and to be curious is good....interesting:>)
Do you think/feel that a strong foundation can be built with the belief that we don't necessarily need all the answers right NOW? Is it a "strong foundation" when we absolutely decide to "know" something? Is a strong foundation to accept that we may not "know" everything right now?
Oct 25 2013: I think strong foundation can be built even if we don't have all the answers right now. as long as the current answers that you have is credible which continue to be convincing for you. I can only say that it is a strong foundation if you cannot easily moved by other perception or belief except if you think they outweigh what you are believing now.
Some people easily change their mind without weighing it's credibility just because someone told them to believe in this. I don't think this is a strong foundation.
Some people only believe what they are believing now and refuse to listen or search for new things. I believe this is being a close minded.Oct 24 2013: Hi Doris,
I cannot agree with the whole "to know where you're going you need to know where you're from" philosophy. It's a good way to maintain staid tradition for the sake of tradition and doesn't seem very open to change or anything new.
A house with strong foundations is no good if there is a flood or fire - it cannot move.
Most people view cognitive dissonance in a negative light but I believe the ability to entertain more than one version of a concept at the same time is an indication of mental evolution.
Doubt is not the same thing as refusing to commit to one philosophy - this is especially important as no one philosophy has all the answers and many are intolerant of other ideas and philosophies because it undermines it.
Oct 25 2013: If God show himself to you right now and tell you I created you I created everything I think it would be easier to choose to believe that God created us and to live a life pleasing unto Him. Unfortunately God's way isn't like that why? who knows? who even knows if God exist or not with a credible proof. If God is real perhaps He want us to discover the origins of our existence.
To choose what to believe about the origin of our existence or where we from will be easier for us to know what we should be doing now and what we are going to do in the future or to have a belief of where we will be heading.
Oct 28 2013: you have gotten to the heart of my actual question. thanks.
i worded it poorly and the majority of responses have been about science vs religion rather than cogitation on what effect knowing without doubt might have on people.
Nadav Tropp
Oct 23 2013: The biggest practical difference is that science leads to engineering, which results in a myriad practical applications.
- +1
On a more philosophical level, the two don't actually contradict each other in the slightest. They don't complement each other very well either, but there is no direct contradiction between the two schools of thought.
Some specific scientific theories do clash with some specific religious beliefs however (like evolution and creationism), which from a purely practical standpoint, makes life difficult for people working on beneficial research religious groups don't like.
Scott Bell
Oct 23 2013: Why do people feel the need to choose a camp?
- +1
We are conditioned to seek an outside Authority.
Are you free, Scott? Free of this Authority?


text:
- Welcome to the 2014/15 season
- Season Calendar
- New Productions 2014/2015
- New Productions 2015/2016
- Revivals 2014/2015
- Revivals 2015/2016
- Recitals 2014/2015
- Recitals 2015/2016
- Concerts 2014/2015
- Concerts 2015/2016
- NOW! Opera for you / Events for children and young people 2014/2015
NOW! Opera for You 2015/2016
events for children
and young people
- Special Events 2014/2015
- Special Events 2015/2016
- Cast Changes
- Ensemble, guest artists and teams
- The orchestra
- Opera Studio
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Sebastian Zierer
Conductor & Coach
During the 2014/15 season Sebastian Zierer conducts performances of La Bohème, the world premiere of Lior Navok's An unserem Fluss/By Our River and Humperdinck's Königskinder. Last season he conducted performances of the new production of Don Giovanni, Die Zauberflöte and Così fan tutte. After graduating in 2008 he joined Oper Frankfurt as a coach, where he became Kapellmeister in 2013/14. During the 2010/11 season he conducted the first ever performances in Germany of Aulis Sallinen's Barabbas-Dialoge. This was followed by a new production of Stravinsky's Die Geschichte vom Soldaten/A Soldier's Tale and performances of Die Zauberflöte, Adriana Lecouvreur, Chabrier's L'Étoile, Die Hochzeit des Figaro/Le nozze di Figaro and Die Fledermaus. Whilst still a student (at music academies in Freiburg and Frankfurt) Sebastian Zierer assisted at Cologne Opera and led the Freiburg Student Orchestra. He has also worked with the Südwestfalen Philharmonie, the Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra and in Pforzheim, Mannheim and, often, with the Polish Chamber Philharmonic in Danzig. He regularly assisted Hessen's Youth Orchestra from 2006-2008. He was awarded a scholarship by the Richard Wagner Verband and the Regensburger Domspatzen Foundation's Kai Uwe von Hassel Prize for his achievements in music.
Saison 2014/2015
(By Our River)
Lior Navok KÖNIGSKINDER (Royal Children)
Engelbert Humperdinck LA BOHÈME
Giacomo Puccini

subset: commoncrawl


text:
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The Sports Network
DATE & TIME: Saturday, September 8, 7:00 p.m. (et)
FACTS & STATS: Site: Vaught-Hemingway Stadium (60,580) -- Oxford, Mississippi.
Television: FSN. Home Record: UTEP 0-1, Ole Miss 1-0. Away Record: UTEP 0-0,
Ole Miss 0-0. Neutral Record: UTEP 0-0, Ole Miss 0-0. Conference Record: UTEP
0-0, Ole Miss 0-0. Series Record: Texas-El Paso leads, 1-0.
GAME NOTES: After earning a win in Hugh Freeze's first game as head coach, the
Ole Miss Rebels attempt to keep that momentum going on Saturday night when
they host the Texas-El Paso Miners in non-conference action.
UTEP took on Big 12 powerhouse Oklahoma in its season opener in front of its
home fans and played about as well as anyone could have expected. The Miners
got out to a 7-0 lead early in the first quarter when Nathan Jeffery returned
a block punt for a touchdown. They kept the game close throughout, but
Oklahoma tacked on a pair of touchdowns in the fourth quarter to pull away and
win, 24-7.
The Miners are looking for a change of fortune on Saturday night. They are
winless in 16 games on the road against teams from a BCS conference.
Ole Miss took on Central Arkansas in its home opener and actually found itself
down by a touchdown, 20-14, midway through the second quarter. From there
however, the Rebels played well, scoring 35 unanswered points before claiming
the 49-27 victory. Although the win came against an FCS school, Ole Miss is
already halfway to matching its entire win total from a season ago when it
went 2-10.
These two programs have met only once before, facing off in the 1967 Sun Bowl
where UTEP claimed a 14-7 victory.
The Miners struggled against one of the best defensive units in the nation
last week, collecting only 255 total yards and failing to score an offensive
The passing attack was nothing short of terrible. Nick Lamaison completed just
six passes on 23 attempts for 39 yards. His performance made way for backup
Carson Meger to get some time under center, although he didn't fare much
better (1-of-3 for nine yards).
Seven different receivers caught a pass for UTEP in the game, although nobody
caught more than two. Kevin Perry had the team's longest gain (13 yards).
Without question, the running game was the highlight of the team's offensive
performance. Nathan Jeffery was outstanding, carrying the ball 21 times for
177 yards for his first-ever 100-yard performance.
The Miners defense played much better than the offense, holding Heisman-
caliber quarterback Landry Jones to 21-of-36 passing for 222 yards. The unit
allowed 427 total yards, but kept the Sooners off the scoreboard for the
majority of the game.
Linebacker Josh Fely led the team with 12 tackles and also had a pass break
up. DeShawn Grayson (nine tackles) and Marcus Bagley (eight tackles, one TFL)
were also all over the field.
UTEP sacked Jones three times on the afternoon, with Bagley and Roy Robertson
splitting one and Germard Reed and DeAndre Little each recording their own.
After a slow start in the opener, the Ole Miss offense started clicking on all
cylinders as the game went on. In the end, it collected 565 yards of total
offense, its most since Sept. 25, 2010 against Fresno State.
Sophomore quarterback Bo Wallace was spectacular, completing 20-of-24 passes
for 264 yards and a pair of touchdowns. He also did plenty of damage on the
ground, leading the team in rushing with 82 yards, finding the end zone once.
Backfield carries were shared by Randall Mackey (15) and Barry Brunetti
(eight), who combined for more than 100 yards rushing. Brunetti found the end
zone in the fourth quarter on an 11-yard run.
Donte Moncrief was the primary beneficiary of Wallace's passes, leading the
team with eight catches and 104 yards, including a 53-yard touchdown late in
the third quarter. Korvic Neat (six rec, 75 yds) and Jamal Mosley (four rec,
79 yds) also had nice days in the receiving game. Philander Moore made just
one catch but it was for a 25-yard touchdown.
The defense did not perform especially well considering it was facing an FCS
opponent, allowing 347 yards and 27 points. The unit did however force an
interception and a fumble, the latter of which was recovered in the end zone
by Ja-Mes Logan for a touchdown.
Linebacker Denzel Nkemdiche was the unit's top performer, recording eight
tackles, three tackles for loss, and a sack. Joel Knight (a sack) and
Dehendret Collins (two TFL) each made seven tackles. C.J. Johnson and Uriah
Grant also recorded sacks for the Rebels. Frank Crawford made the
UTEP scored 26.6 points per game and put up 380.5 total yards per game in
2011, so the poor performance against Oklahoma can be chalked up as an
exception against a great defense. There's no doubt the unit will be able to
put up better numbers against Ole Miss, which showed some weakness against a
much worse opponent. Wallace and company have proven that there are plenty of
viable weapons in the Rebels' offense, and even against a Miners' unit that
looked good at times against Oklahoma, they will scrape together enough points
to move to 2-0
Sports Network Predicted Outcome: Ole Miss 24, Texas El-Paso 20


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Quarterly Report: 2012, January - March (Q3), Chalkyitsik
Jeffrey Congdon
DCRA Regional Office:
Gov't Type:
Federally Recognized Tribe
Agreement Date:
Chalkyitsik Village
Assessment Status:
Assessment Date:
Exp Date:
Last Updated:
Community Sanitation Overview:
The Chalkyitsik village council owns and operates the centralwatering point and washateria. The Village Council is the policy-making body for the utility. Residents haul water from the watering point and use honeybuckets or outhouses for sewage disposal. The utility provides piped water service to the school. A utility master plan was completed to study improvements needed to provide a community system. Chalkyitsik has been funded by Alaska Native Tribal Health Consortium (ANTHC) for $799,690 for water treatment improvements, connecting the school and ten homes on the west side to piped water and sewer, and a community watering point. The utility has also been awarded a DEC/VSW grant of $192,400 for Phase 2, and a USDA/RD grant for Phase 3 in the amount of $405,700. Construction on these projects is complete. There is a current project to construct a community health clinic. A water and sewer masterplan is in the works.
RUBA Status & Activities This Qtr:
Chalkyitsik completed their RUBA dependent project and does not currently have a RUBA dependent project scheduled for the future. The community is pursuing a Sanitation Master Plan for future use. RUBA staff sent emails to Chalkyitsik personnel explaining the RUBA program and requesting continued participation. Requests for financial and managerial information was sent December 20th and December 30th. There have not been any responses or replies to the requested information.
RUBA Activities for the Coming Qtr:
RUBA staff will remain available for consultation or training with Chalkyitsik personnel.
Essential Indicators:
15 of 27
Sustainable Indicators:
14 of 26
Total Score:
29 of 53
Essential Indicators
All revenues and expenses for the utility are listed in the utility budget.
The utility has adopted a balanced realistic budget.
Monthly financial reports are prepared and submitted to the policy making board.
The utility is current in paying all water/wastewater electric bills.
The utility has on hand a year's adequate fuel supply or it has a financial plan to purchase an adequate supply.
The utility is receiving revenues (user fees or other sources) sufficient to cover operating expenses.
Sustainable Indicators
The utility is receiving revenues (user fees or other sources sufficient to cover operating expenses and Repair & Replacement (R) costs.
YTD revenues are at a level equal to or above those budgeted.
YTD expenditures are at a level equal to or below those budgeted.
A monthly manager's report is prepared.
Budget amendments are completed and adopted as necessary.
Finances Comments
Chalkyitsik does not have, and has not provided RUBA personnel with a utility budget. RUBA staff has requested financial information from Chalkyitsik for the past 3 quarters, but as of April 4, 2012 Chalkyitsik personnel have not supplied financial information.
Accounting Systems
Essential Indicators
The utility has adopted a collection policy and actively follows it.
The utility bills customers on a regular basis.
An accounts receivable system is in place which tracks customers and reports past due accounts and amounts.
An accounts payable system is in place.
The payroll system correctly calculates payroll and keeps records.
A cash receipt system is in place that records incoming money and how it was spent.
The utility has a cash disbursement system that records how money was spent.
Sustainable Indicators
A chart of accounts is used that identifies categories in a reasonable, usable manner.
Monthly bank reconciliations have been completed for all utility accounts.
The utility has a purchasing system that requires approval prior to purchase, and the approval process compares proposed purchases to budgeted amounts.
Accounting Systems Comments
The school is the water utility's only billed customer. A service agreement between the tribe and school exists which outlines the rights, responsibilities, and rates. The school pays monthly, 12 months per year. A copy of the bill is on file in Fairbanks. No other customers are subject to collections because all utility services are either prepaid or paid for at the time of service. Accounts receivable are tracked for the electric utility. The school is not part of the accounts receivable system. Chalkyitsik does not use an accounts payable system; expenses are entered when bills are paid. QuickBooks is utilized for the payroll system. The cash receipt system is a combination of manual and computer reporting. As customers prepay for electricity or buy washateria tokens, the tribal administrator receives the money and writes a receipt, a copy of which is permanently retained in the wire bound receipt book. The bookkeeper uses the receipt book to accurately post the amounts to the electricity or washateria income accounts. Expenses for the water utility are disbursed from the utility checking account and a description of what the money was spent on is provided. Before checks are written, a check request is submitted, the administrator reviews the request and the bookkeeper confirms that funds are available. The crucial step that is missing is that funds are not verified in the budget. The chart of accounts is very inclusive. Monthly bank reconciliations are completed. The tribal council has a purchasing policy as part of its Finance Policy and Procedures Manual (a copy is on file in the Fairbanks office).
Tax Problems
Essential Indicators
The utility has a system to accurately calculate, track, and report payroll tax liabilities.
The utility is current on filing tax reports.
The utility is current on making tax deposits.
If there are any past due tax liabilities or recorded tax liens, a lien release has been issued or a repayment agreement has been signed and repayments are current.
Tax Problems Comments
Chalkyitsik Village Council, as of March 21, 2012, is current with the IRS, and is current with State of Alaska Department of Labor through 12/31/2011, and is not on any lien lists.
Personnel System
Essential Indicators
The utility has a posted workers compensation insurance policy in effect.
Sustainable Indicators
The utility has adopted and uses a Personnel Policy, which has been reviewed by an attorney, AML or Commerce for topics and language.
The utility has adequate written job descriptions for all positions.
The utility has adopted and follows a written personnel evaluation process that ties the job description to the evaluation.
The utility has an adequate written hiring process.
The utility has personnel folders on every employee that contain at least: I-9, Job Application and Letter of Acceptance.
The utility has a probationary period for new hires that includes orientation, job training/oversight, and evaluations.
The utility provides training opportunities to staff as needed and available.
Personnel System Comments
as of April 4, 2012 Chalkyitsik Village Council has Worker's Compensation insurance. Their policy with Alaska National Insurance Co. is current. The village has a personnel policy which is adequate; the policy outlines the hiring process and describes the probationary period. Job descriptions exist for the utility positions. Formal written evaluations are not done, as verbally told to RUBA staff, and no evaluations were noticed in employee files. Letters of reprimand, or warning, are provided to employees and corrective performance meetings between employee and the village council are done (as documented by letters between the tribal administrator and employees but which RUBA staff did not take copies). The personnel policy and procedures manual outlines the hiring process starting with the recruitment notice, selection, and even an interview summary sheet. Personnel files contain the necessary documentation of I-9, application, and letter of acceptance. On the job training occurs during the 90 day probationary period.
Organizational Management
Essential Indicators
The entity that owns the utility is known; the entity that will operate the utility is set.
The policy making body is active in policy making of the utility.
The policy making body enforces utility policy.
The utility has an adequately trained manager.
The utility has an adequately trained bookkeeper.
The utility has an adequately trained operator or operators.
The utility has adopted the necessary ordinances (or rules and regulations) necessary to give it the authority to operate.
Sustainable Indicators
The utility has adopted an organizational chart that reflects the current structure.
The policy making body meets as required.
The utility complies with the open meeting act for all meetings.
Organizational Management Comments
Tribal bylaws and a signed ordinance stating that the tribe has the power to operate the utility are in effect, RUBA has copies of these documents in the Fairbanks office. Tribal ordinances granting the tribal council authority for the operation of the utilities are in place and signed by the village council. The tribal council works closely with an accounting firm based in Fairbanks, they have recently hired a bookkeeper who will take over day to day accounting allowing the fairbanks based firm to revert to quarterly consultations and visitations. The tribal council is the policy making body for the utility. The policy making body enforces the policies in place. The utility operator is trained and has been on the job for some time, The water utility operator has a level one water treatment certification. The utility has adopted an organizational chart that reflects the power structure of the utility. The policy making body has been meeting as required. The community is not a municipality so is not required to follow the open meetings act.
Operation of Utility
Essential Indicators
The utility operator(s) are actively working towards necessary certification.
The utility has a preventative maintenance plan developed for the existing sanitation facilities.
Sustainable Indicators
The manager receives a monthly O&M report from the utility operator and routinely "spot checks" the facilities to see that the maintenance items are being completed.
The utility has a safety manual and holds safety meetings.
Utility facilities have not suffered any major problems/outages due to management issues that are unresolved.
The utility is operating at the level of service that was proposed.
The operator provides status reports to the manager on a routine basis.
The utility has completed and distributed its "Consumer Confidence Report".
The utility is not on the "Significant Non-Complier" (SNC) list.
The utility maintains an inventory control list.
The utility maintains a critical spare parts list.
Operation of Utility Comments
The primary operator, Larry Henry, received a Water Treatment 1 certificate on April 8 2011. The utility has a preventative maintenance plan, as part of the larger operations and maintenance manual. Willie Salmon is currently, informally, acting as the utility manager. He receives verbal updates from the water operator. Mr. Salmon does make routine checks on the facility in addition to periodically working in the utility. Mr. Henry, the operator, provides a list of daily activities and notes to the administrator when he submits his time sheet. The list identifies work completed and operations issues. The administrator was unsure if a safety manual existed but stated that safety meetings between the tribal council and the employee to discuss drinking issues occur. The utility has been operating at the proposed levels for the community. The utility provides reports to the council monthly during the council meetings. The most recent CCR is from 2007. Water operator, Larry Henry, was able to provide a hand written list of parts and supplies to RUBA. An email request to the ANTHC engineer asking for assistance in obtaining a formal critical spare parts list and a formal inventory control list specific to this utility, has not been returned. Chalkyitsik is on the January 2012 Significant Non-Complier list for high DBP's(TTHM/HAAS). The short term interim approval to operate has expired, ANTHC engineer needs to provide information to ensure system can meet DBP levels for 1 year prior to final approval to operate can be granted.
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text:
Harley-Davidson® Ken® Doll #1
Designed by: Sharon Zuckerman
Release Date: 1/1/1999
Product Code: 22255
Ken® doll looks very cool in a black faux leather motorcycle jacket with a Harley-Davidson logo on the back, a Harley T-shirt, and torn faded blue jeans. His blue eyes, ponytail and goatee are sure to catch Barbie® doll's eye!
Each doll sold separately.
HARLEY-DAVIDSON trademarks and logo used under license.
Production doll may vary from the photo shown above. Mattel reserves the right to modify the fashion/fabrics, sculpt, hair color/style, and accessories. Doll cannot stand alone as shown.
Collector Photos
No one has uploaded any photos.


text:
Moderators: Tonyblack, Jason, Toothy
ChristianBecker wrote:Bah! Humbug.
Tonyblack wrote:Q I completely understand your feelings. Your comments are almost exactly like mine of a very few years ago. I even had one brother threaten to hit me if I didn't cheer up at Christmas time.
Tonyblack wrote:I'm now in the situation where I can do as much or as little as I want come Christmas time. Sharlene and I have basically chosen to make our own holiday of the day. Yes we exchange gifts and yes we have something special for lunch - the last few years I've made a special effort and cooked a vegetarian lasagna. But we don't go to see anyone and neither of us drink, so all in all it's a very relaxed and enjoyable day - with no religious stuff either!
Tonyblack wrote:P.S. the reason I chose this particular avatar is because the cat looks so p*ssed off at having a santa hat put on it.
Quatermass wrote:Redemption? Having to socialise with relatives when all you really want to do is keep to yourself?
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"High On A Mountaintop" By Chris Cassone–A Tribute to the Heroes of Benghazi
Posted by KingShamus on December 8, 2012
Chris Cassone understands something about President Obama and his administration full of feckless spineless cowards that most of the Palace Guard Media refuses to acknowledge.
High On A Mountaintop
I heard the man on the radio, said, "My son is gone and what's to show?"
Defending who knows what for who knows why.
Half a world away they watched for real, they saw the soul of a Navy Seal
"Who gave the order for my son to die?"
Evil men telling evil lies
Just to win a vote you let them die
While that drone would only hover.
Finger pointing. They're on the run.
Investigations have all begun.
How much more will they uncover?
High on a mountaintop. That's the only place where I can stop this crying
High on a mountaintop. Closer to God and further from all this lying.
You know it stands to reason, and it's shaping up like treason, we all know.
He didn't even have to venture in, but when his brothers, they all needed him,
He was on the spot…not flying to Vegas.
Real leaders lead when they are called,
Never thinking that they'll drop the ball
But drop to their knees for Him who has made us
9-11, baby, you should have known
Al Queida coming and they're all alone
But where is the outrage for THIS story?
Laser target, in his sight
60 to one, yea the odds looked right.
You'll never understand their glory
HOAM. It's the only place I can go to stop this hurting.
HOAM Justice will come one day, I know for certain.
-I know I cannot runaway, but give us just another single day
-These heroes live forever but a coward dies a thousand times.
-You know it stands to reason but it's shaping up like treason, we all know.
Half a world away they watched for real, they saw the soul of a Navy Seal
"Who gave the order for my son to die?"
A great song which asks important questions.
Prediction: Right around 2016, the brave truth seeking mainstream press that constantly pats itself on the groin for speaking truth to power will finally have enough time to report on what actually happened on September 11th in Benghazi. The story of Ambassador Christopher Stevens, Tyrone Woods, Glen Doherty and Sean Smith will be a huge fifty word featured blurb on page E-12 of the New York Times. The heroes of Benghazi will fall below a fawning profile of Michele Obama's victorious Senate run, a Paul Krugman op-ed praising Supreme Court Chief Justice Joe Biden for enshrining the constitutional right of dolphins to have same-sex marriage and a full page meditation on America's heartbreak over Lindsey Lohan's eighteenth stint in rehab.
That is, unless we in the blogosphere keep this story alive.
I snagged this link and video from Jim over at the great Conservatives on Fire blog. Thanks, mi amigo. Read his series of posts on taking an incremental approach vis-a-vis the upcoming collapse of the Western world.
3 Responses to ""High On A Mountaintop" By Chris Cassone–A Tribute to the Heroes of Benghazi"
December 9, 2012 at 12:02 am
[…] "High On A Mountaintop" By Chris Cassone–A Tribute to the Heroes of Benghazi […]
December 9, 2012 at 11:07 pm
[…] Blog de KingShamus: "High On A Mountaintop" By Chris Cassone–A Tribute to the Heroes of Benghazi […]
December 10, 2012 at 11:48 am
2016? You're assuming President Jug Ears and his dickless acolytes in the MSM won't try to get the constitution amended so he can run a third time.
Hey, it worked for Mike Bloomberg.


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You're right!madam wrote:Tonyblack wrote:Thanks Anilori! Looks interesting.
A subterranean tunnel maybe? Like the underground river he gets washed down in Thud!
nah you can see the lightning in the sky,dont think it looks like a waterfall either, the white crest makes it look like a tidal wave to me.
Maybe a very narrow valley then.


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1951-11-29 1
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6-ty^n ii»nm i. n ni..1 .M m.jjnJMyaiff*p*ii*pNmf<nm«ittaviim»-iiri '1*1 ^.-Vr^S*^ t3ite.Tr.Moty, -(.jrv» f^-nTy*^ , . _ . . . . . _ . - . , " ^ S "N • '. PAGE SIXTEEN THE i BADE BY THURSDAY, NOTTEMBER 22r'19£L on | Mrs. Theodore L. Kurz Presides at Session At Elks Club Saturday •Numerous .State officers of the ^American Iiegion Auxiliary atbend1- ed' the liincheori and meeting'of the .10th District, Saturday-morning and afternoon in the Freeport Elks club- .house. Mrs. Theodore L. Kurz, of ^William CUnton 'Story Post AuxU- ~iary, Preeiport, the district chair-man, presided. ' , " .' ^ 'r "Ouests incliided MrsrC3eorge Carl- .eon, of Jamaica, department ^>resih. dentr Mrs. LeO-Careyriof--dreneseo, .vlce^presldeht and! reihairiHtation "Chairman; -Mrs. 'Jesse Haley, of Qteven'towrii-.vice-<presldent and .child . welfare chairman; Mrs. Ida Ashby, of Manhattan, state flecretary-treasurer; Mrs. Marjorle Irwin, dtf Islip, district vice-chairman; Mrs. Theodore WaHner,, of Wcodhaven^ district secretary; Mrs. Charles Browne, of Malerne, district serge- ;ant-a'tr-armc; Mrs. Harold Taylor, "of Mirieola,' past department'' presi- (dent and national ^executive-'com-(- '•rtiittee nxeatiber; Mrs. kurz,.de(part-ment cari^^ coihriil6tee chairman; Mrs. Nathaniel; Giles, oif Rosedale, deparbmenft (Pan-American chialr-man, and Mrs.: Albert Goll, of Fort JeZ/erfiori, • department; poppy chau*- /man. .; ' ' ' • < . - ' Also Mrs.' dharles Rfeyer, oif {Baldwin,-Nassau Qbunty, ichalranan; .-Mrs. .Stanley,: Hand,, of. Smithtown Distinguished Guest at Book Fair Jinx Falkenbcrg and. .Tex McCrary, famous radio-team, officially opened the Malyerne Public Library's Book Fair at the Lindner* Place .school in Malverne Friday night by presenting an autographed, copy of Jinx's new book; "Jinx," .to Mrs. Bernhardt T. Bcnman, president of the Friends of Malyerne Public Library, which sponsored the fair. People from all over the South Shore visited the three-day event to see the rare collection of old books and manuscripts assembled for the event. .|and Mrs... Jaines ,;Cunningham, of ;Rosedale; Queens 'County cKairmari. ? . £M;ra;;.-Joseph/;H. Orayn-and-_ Mrs. George V. Mlaurer, ot'tiie Story Post Auxiliary;' ,had 'chaise pf_ the. ar* William Engle Serving With Atlantic Hee • A "district Wrthday^cake," with pandles was prJesen-te^ to Mrs. Carl-son. On .tt are 'ten candles, one for each district, and as the districts attain their membership quotas, a cancHe-^wlU^bS lighted. The "cake" is made ofT^bod and the candles >are of metal painted white. Mrs. Carlson is to retain the "cake" and it will be exhibited at the next State. cbnvetvtlott ' - v-'- • The various .vcommlttee chairmen their reports. _That for , fireman appren-tice, T7SN, son at Mr. and 'Mrs7Ix>uIs R Engle^and-huSband "oiTMrs. Lor-rayne Eagle,. all; of 157 Evans ave-nue, ..is serving aboard the survey ship UiSS Maury,. attached to the Service Force, Atlantic Fleet. survey area, several-small parties of six to^ten men leave tflie ship. Tbosr In ther baarte chart the depths 'ol •Water in the area 'while/ (he. show parties erect lOO^foot -steel signal towers as reference points, —-. B- ^Y™. .i ./.t.i_ , _R-; 'v-. i. i_f J"_i T T*. t.i. ~i*f, c, Service To ^^hportHosp itat V. Northport HospitaOIight was observed by Justice Lodge and Chapter, B'nai B'rith, in Temple B'nai "Israel att its first November meeting. George A. Savarese, director of volunteer activities^ for th~e "Veterans Administration at tlie hospital, was the guest of the evening. A playlet, -"Word 04-B." written by M^s. Alice Edelman, a member ol the Chapter, was presented." -It portrayed services, given by B'nai B'rith members in entertaining the patients-at the institution. . ' . : In the cast were George Rosen-blum, -Ethel Krieger, Harold /Betel-man, Joseph Parks, Margit Gladtke, Sophie Nussbaum, Kenneth Sunla, Florence Gold, Aaron Herman, Sam-uel Jurist, Mrs. Bdelman and Syl-via Gerzof, • '._ awards'and certificates of merit to the' following for services given at NJoiithport: Mr. and Mrs. Elihu Ber-man. Miss Kay Rosenstein, MTS. Jack _WoK, Aaron Bennan, Mrs, Sydney Grlben. Mrs. Martin. Glad-tke, Mrs. Jerome Gould, Mrs. Jo-seph Goldfolum, Mrs. Ivarry Greene, Mrs. Cecil Meyers, Mr. and Mrs. David Krieger, Mrs. Jesse Perlin, Mrs, Maurice Troobnlck, Mrs. Jul-ius Gerzof. Mrs. Rose Bnxwer, Mr Suna and Mr. and Mrs. Harold Edel- Mr. Savarese presented citation' man. Temple Sisterhood Meets Tuesday Night The sisterhood of Congregation B'nai Israel will present Elaine Kaylen' in a program called "Hour Minutes tp_^-<Jo." Tuesday night at 8:30 o'clock in the temple vestry. Mrs, EcHtif'Dlaniond and Mrs. Pearl Suna are co-chairmen In charge of the event. ^ ^, The artist-will be assisted by Mrs. Jeanette poan, Mrs. Rose Friedman, Mrs/Ronnie Goodman,-"Mrs; :Shlr^ ley: Greene, Mrs. I£toby Hersfhentfeld, Mrs., Babe~Kipbergt Mrs. Rose Lev-itt, Mrs. Clara-Lucks, Mrs. Marine Miller, Mrs. Doris Or'tner, Mrs. Lila Sherlinger and Mrs. Roberta Shavel. Home Bureau Starting Class in Lamp Shades The regular monthly meetdng of the South Nassau Unit of the Home Bureau was held at the Presbyter-ian Church, Babylon Turnpike, Roosevelt, Wednesday evening, No-vember 14. • Mr. David Sommers, an author-ity on ecclesiastteaJ_glass was sched-uled' to be the speaker of the eve-ning, but_could not attend because of illness. However, tye will speak at a later date. A class in .-Lamp Shades will dtart on November 29 under the supervision of Mrs. Anthony Marla-bella in the church at 8 pjm. A one evening* class in leather belts wil lalsb be held the same evening under the supervision of Mrs. Geonge MfeCollon. iftr-^- "means of'^reducing juvenile1 delin-quency. That on rehabilitation an-nounced- plans for providing-Christ-mas gifts for all hospitalized vet-erans; Other reports concerned cari- 'cer control, community service work for victims of Hanson's dls-' ease In the hospital at Carville, La., Gdrl ©tate, f Americanism, which : called for' Americans to "fly your tfluog"-on'every occasion opportun- .ity aJJfiords, afad-legislation for vet^ "•erans.' '; •_ '• •' (Muslclwas provided by a quartet ;and a trio fronj the Queens County Auxiliary--which"won the champ-ionship -at the recent New York Stiate convention. There were 320 In Lattendanee;. Thanks To Be Theme : Of .Harris's Sermon "The Rev. Rome.O. Harris lias an- .nounced his topic for Sunday morn- -ing-at the second Baptist Qhurch, East-Merrick road, t^'XSlve Thanks _to-Go<i-VirhO'Sat on^tHe Thronei who JLJlveth^oreYef and ever." -"There will be a'pi^anTI) •Sunday sclipol at 3:30 o'clock -day - afternoon: under the direction of Roosevelt Jones, the supertnteri- •dent..' L=Z...•---••*-=*-- -^ - - ;r -- y The Reverend JIarris wlU preach -again :at^tQie-Sunday evenhig .j — ^i. * « . . • . • * ^i* _ . _. "In the ^Thanksgiving service v this .week souls are being inspired to pour out their hearts,.in thanks to Almighty FotU" said the Reverend Harris.". Barbara Jane Miller Announces Engagement , ~ '" Ji:)rV;and , Mrs, K STeem&n Mllier, 142 South '-Ocean avenue* have i 'an- - nounced • the engagement of- their daughter,. Miss Battoara ;• Jane Ikfll-ler, .to AUbert Burnett Carlson, son of Mr. an4:Mr3.;iJ,ohh A. Carlson, of .Marion,. Mass. ^ t. , Vi -i ,- Mistf Mifle^r is a"gradtrate! oif Free-port- HiKh;1 School, Penn^ Hall1 Juni- ' or." College,- Cbamberaburfir/'Ra.;'' and Syracitee T^jdyerBlty . .Her- f fcinc£ was graduated' fronis Pihlllii^ --A^adany, Andover,:XMa&;i' and reeeiyed: his •:d^w-froni:-;Harvard; University^ In 1938. He tras'a itapteln m tiie Annv an 'M6htgpanery; f Ward w Co.,. ih-CSWcago.^lUV'^-r-;'--'-;-? v . -\ FEEEPOE3? WEST MEHRlGg POM) ---^--tll i &*&>- VALUE .. .More fof your money . vs many features 6tfiofears charge extra f o r . . . greater value throughout/ FOR BEAUTY ... Smart, practical styling ... wide choice of rnodob and new body colors. Durable, harmonizing upholsteryl FOR PERFORMANCE... Big, high-compression engine. Tip-Toe Shift with'Ruid Drive lets'you drive without shifting. Waterproof Ignition. FOR SAFETY.. .No car In Aiherlca has bigger brakes! Safety-Rim Wheels .. .all-steel, body... rugged box-type framel FOR COMFORT .. . More headroom, legrobm, armroom . .. Chair- High-Seats i•; ,-OrifloWjShock Absorbers . *. longer tyheelbase. FOR ECONOMY ... ' Designed for you and your "budget too". ••• , C p,M E I N -A N Jf&JS EiE ^H^EJ-^N^W'^I; 9"5,;2^p E SO T O T O D A Y !: . . . . .. . ,- i , - » , -.1. i . ... • . - • ' > ' • ' • '•''..' .-.::......,.\._ ^ • • -• -•• • ' £ ' • ' ' / . • ' • •..—£-.: f.'"'. ': - . ' • . 1yli- "''• , ' • ' * . . 'FOLLOW/THE //^LEADER—1 —-FORT— RELIABLE ADVERTISING R E E P O R TS O F FI GIA L N EW S P LEADER NEWS 16th Year, No. 28 PREEPOBT; N, Y,, THUESDAY, NOVEMBBR 29,. 1961 FIVE CENTS PER COPY The Nimrods Return The two block bears and one. of the deer killed by the Texas Bankers off Freeport are shown Jri" front of"iheir place on Long Beach road, Oceanside. Tony Pappas, standing- In his hunting garb, holds the head -of ome of the bears. Frank IVianntjllo of Freeport, who accompanied the, Pappas brothers on their.Maine hunting- expedition, is kheeUng beside one of the deer bagged on the trip. - '-. Freeport's Texas Rangers Shoot 900 Pounds Of Bear A few of Freeport's Texas Rangers—there-are seven al-to getter-^-made a foray into the Northern .woods this month and came home last Friday.loaded-with-game-^Their take was two black bear, two deer and a bob cat. They collected bounties on the bears. The Texas Rangers are the Pap-pas boys, of ..Greek ancestry, "but themselves, deep from, the heart of Texas, having lived in Houston before they came to Long Island seeking the better life. They are owners of the Texas Bangers . res-taurant on North Main street, Free-port, and Long Beach road, Ocean- : Two ^Sunflays ago'Tony, James Pappas and"a friend, -Russ ManuelJo of Ereeport, left by car at 3 o'clock in the morning and droxe._to_Princeton;- Maine, way up near the-'Canadian— .toorder to the-operated by-Jim OudaOiy, well ormer'Roc^DvUle Centre res-ident and tree surgeon. . t -James Pappas. shot a- 350 -pound black bear, killing it after four shots. In backing a/way as the bear charged -at him jJames tripped and .-•telljra a spike. He was taken to, the hospital at Calais, Maine, where he stayed from Nq-vemOaer 14 to 22, He was .Hewn back to Long Island last week and is still convalescing at the 21 DAYS TO SHOP IN FREEPORT ^ FOR -" CHRISTMAS r home of Tony Pappas, 119 Brookside avenue. Continued, on Page 13) Community Council flails Progress Witlf Its Major Project Senior Citizens Group Grew To Present Siie ^ Within Year's Time The first anniversary of the es-tablishment of the Senior Citizens Group was observed by -the Free-port Community Council at its quar-terly meeting in the Court Room of the Municipal Building Monday night. A large delegation of senior citizens attended and participated In the program. President Samuel L. Israel said that If ''the establishment of the group was the only thing done by the Council tt would have Justified its existence. Mrs. L. S. Yudln, chair-man of the committee in charge of the project, .reported 'that the first meeting of the group was held on October 30, 1950, in the Legion Dug-out and that it had grown until the average attendance "at _the Monday and Tuesday gatherings in the Dug- .out had increased to 47, with an ac-tive membership of 79 and an en-rollment of 102. Attendance Has Grown She told of the establishment ofl the classes In ceramics and shel craft, of the bazaar held last spring which netted $83, and .said the members exhibited their handicraf at the Mlneola fair in September IMrs. Yudiri continued that since activities were resumed after the summer recess, the attendance hat totaledJn>2 ann-SJ^G-ibadYbeen spen 'in the work.. Sheirffcald*, there _were (Continued. dh Peg^ *3).^ V.F.W. Will Collect Waste Paper Sunday \ Henry Theodore M o h r Post, ViP.W., will have its monthly col-lection of waste paper on Sunday. Old newspapers, rags and other salable materials may be done up in bundles weighing approximately 15 pounds ..and at the curt) before : 30 'o'clock, when the veterans will start the rounds of the village hi trucks picking up the paper, etc. Proceeds from the sale of the mat- ;er collected will be placed In the post's welfare fund. 46 October-Permits Reach Total of $250,395 Forty-six permits for building and construction aggregating $250,395 were issued by tihe Freeport Building Department during the month of October, (Building Superintendent Wilbert F. DeMott reported at Mon-day night's meeting of the Village Board. jMr. DeMott reported there were 22 .permits for new construction costing $210,775 and 24 permits for alterations costing $39,620. Plaza Is Sponsoring Salvation Army Show E. J. Ellnberger, Owner, Is Host To Committee At Elks Club Today Details of a "special benefit show at the Plaza Theatre Wednesday night, December 12, in behalf of the Salvation Army's Christmas fund"*for Che poor and needy ol Freeport will be discussed at a luncheon at^he Elks Club today by a committee"selected by Edwin J. Ellenlberger o^ner of the Plaza who ls"GpoBSdring the affair. Mr. Ellenberger has. asked presi- Continircd on Page 13)' Officials Promise Work Won't Hamper Christmas Shopping County Issues Permits For Construction Work To Extend Dial System Freeiport" Tesldents, particularly Merrick road merchants, who were aghast early this week to ftncj bull-dozers digging up the streets at the outset of the Christmas shopping season, have been re-assured by the Village roflficlals and officers ol the New - York - Telephone Company, which is responsible.'for the excava-tions. " / _'•:>, Village officials explained that the permit for trie opening of Mer-rick road -between Church and Main streets "was issued by the County, as Merrick road is a Coun-ty road. The County notified the village of the request for the permit, as a matter of courtesy and co-oper-ation, an4 reported that the tele-phone company promised-to com-plete Its :WOrk of laying under-ground caibles through-the ^business part of Merrick road b 1 ''•'!. g Roosevelt Raceway Qives Out $150,000 to 38 Organizations Thirty-eight .non-profit organizations were.the b'eneficiarius of $150,000 distributed "byRoosevelt Raceway out of last season's jrofits at a luncheon held Tuesday, November 20, at Guy Ix>m- >ardo 's. This is the eleventh year the raceway has distributed gifts o hospitals and religious, educational and charitable institu-ions in the County. Aggregate distributions, including this Roosevelt Raceway Cuts Annual Melon for Charity year's amount, have now exceeded $1,000,000. - George Morton Levy of Freeport, counsel for the Rafceway -and one of Its original founders in 1940, was prai4£d~76r^ orig^ina/ttng the plan as representatives of the recipient or-ganizations gathered at IxHnbardo's to receive the .gifts in the form-, of checks: -—-'• - ?— A resolution was adopted praising •Mr; Levy, for his- cbns'tiancy in main-talnfng- the ^custom year after year since the first" Distribution was 4nade. . . ' ._, . •George Morton Levy of Freeport,.counsel for Eoosevelt Raceway,, fakes the "mike" for "a" few-remarks at the luncheon at Guy Lombardo's Tuesday of last weik when the'Raceway distributed $150,000 out of last season's profits to 38 organizations. In the center Is Frank Curran of the Armed Forces Welfare Foundation and the Long Island Lighting Company. On the right is Supreme Justice Thomas J. Cuff, who received the gift made to Mercy Hospital. . . , - . . .The largest gtft.of_$30,QOO the Nassau .Cerebral Palsy Associa-tion, which was designated as the Raceway's major project for 1051. It was revealed at the meeting that the various private hospitals of the County have received a -total of. $186,494 in the last^Jl years. The complete list of gifts dlstrib-ua^ ed 'by J. Alfred Valentine, execu-tive vice-president of the Old Coun-try Trotting Association, was as •follows: . Carl Place Fire Department, $1,000'' (Continued on Page 13) CHUBBUCK'S DRUG STORE OPEN ALL DAY SUNDAY Chubbuck's Drug Store, Main et., and Sunrise Highway, Trtll remain open "after the other pharmacies in Fre&pbrt close at 2 o'clock Sunday. The telephone is FReeport 9-3333. Leader "Index 'Obituaries Sports Ed i to rials Society __ Attound Town ... Joseph Romcikn Sholpplnsr .—:-_.. Moyie Guide _^- Notices _ '.:.' Page • 4_ I--~ Fuires 12-la -..- Page 8 ^-.-.^ " Pajfo 6 "."... Pnjfc - B ., Page 8 ...... 'Pane 14 -™ Pare:IS" '14-15
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|This is a newspaper distributed locally within Freeport and Baldwin, Long Island, New York
|Linda Toscano
|L & M Publications, P.O. Box 312, 30 South Ocean Avenue, Suite 204, Freeport, New York 11520.
|Nicolas Toscano, Michele Swersey, Joan Delaney.
|Freeport Memorial Library;
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|Newspapers are Public Domain before 1 March 1989; and Digital Rights after that date transferred to Freeport Memorial Library by L & M Publications.
|1951-11-29 1
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Given that he's a new member (and for all you know he could be entirely new to the concept of online forums), how is he supposed to know that this topic has already been discussed?
Bashing a member that signed up just 3 days ago isn't exactly the best way to induct him and encourage him to come back here again. It's this kind of attitude and behavior that's deterring people from coming to EWN.


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Edmonton Oilers (19-33-6) at New York Rangers (31-23-3), 7 p.m.
(SportsNetwork.com) - The red-hot New York Rangers will try to extend their longest winning streak of the season to five games when they host the Edmonton Oilers in Thursday's battle at Madison Square Garden.
The Rangers have earned four straight victories and the current winning streak gives New York wins in seven of nine and 10 of its past 13 games. The Blueshirts have won three of the four tilts during their recent hot streak by three or more goals and are outscoring the opposition by an 18-6 margin during that span.
New York hasn't won five in a row since the 2011-12 season when it went 5-0 from Dec. 30-Jan. 10 of that campaign.
Despite their recent hot play, the second-place Rangers still find themselves 17 points behind Pittsburgh for the Metropolitan Division lead. New York is three points in front of Columbus for the division's second spot and also three clear of the eighth and final playoff spot in the East.
Ryan Callahan played a standout role for the Rangers in their most recent win, as the team captain shook off recent trade rumors to score a pair of first- period goals that set the tone in Tuesday's 5-1 home rout of the Colorado Avalanche.
Callahan, mentioned as a possible candidate to be moved prior to the upcoming trade deadline due to his unrestricted free agent status at season's end, also added an assist on Brad Richards' late tally to help the Rangers record their longest win streak of the season.
Richards and Derick Brassard each posted a goal and assist and Anton Stralman also lit the lamp for New York. Henrik Lundqvist did his part as well between the pipes, turning back 27-of-28 shots in the triumph.
"We had a real strong start," Rangers head coach Alain Vigneault remarked. "Obviously we were meeting a team that was tired and we were fresh. It was their third game in four nights, but we came out the way I thought we needed to come out and that was a determining factor tonight."
The Rangers, who are 14-13-3 at MSG this season, will try to complete a three- game homestand tonight with a perfect record. New York will play its final tilt before the Olympic break Friday night in Pittsburgh.
The Oilers, who currently are in last place in the West, have won four of their last five games and recently posted a 3-2 regulation decision in Buffalo.
After losing 4-0 in Boston on Saturday to begin its four-game road trip, a swing that will carry the club into the Olympic break, the Oilers bounced back with Monday's win over the Sabres. Matt Hendricks scored the winner in the third period to help Edmonton edge Buffalo at First Niagara Center.
Jeff Petry and Justin Schultz also scored for the Oilers, while Ilya Bryzgalov stopped 42 shots in the win.
"He played great because we put him behind the eight ball a lot with all the penalties we took and shots we gave up," said Schultz of Bryzgalov. "He really came up big several times tonight."
The Oilers went 0-for-5 on the power play, but killed off five of Buffalo's six chances with the extra man.
Ben Scrivens is expected to be back between the pipes for the Oilers on Thursday. Scrivens is 2-3-0 with a 2.21 goals against average and .944 save percentage in five games with Edmonton since coming over last month in a trade with Los Angeles. The 27-year-old netminder set an NHL record for saves in a regular-season shutout with 59 stops in a 3-0 win over San Jose on Jan. 29, but he yielded four goals on 41 shots in Saturday's setback in Boston.
Edmonton improved to 9-19-4 as the visiting team this season. The Oilers will close their pre-Olympic schedule with Friday's game in New Jersey.
The Oilers have won three of the last five meetings in the series with the Rangers overall, but New York has taken two of three and six of the last eight encounters in the Big Apple. The last time Edmonton visited MSG was on Nov. 14, 2010, when the Rangers picked up a victory with an 8-2 rout.
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