text:
Who is the winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature 2012?
Can't Say.
Come on. Tell me!
Can't Say.
Why not? please!
Can't Say.
F**k you!
The Nobel Foundation announced today:
The Nobel Prize in Literature 2012 was awarded to Mo Yan "who with hallucinatory realism merges folk tales, history and the contemporary".
Mo Yan, the name in Pinyin means "Can't Say" in Chinese language.
English, like Chinese, is very hard to learn well. Neowin is an international forum, so I'd like to see whether those ESL members feel this "story" funny or not.
As for native English speakers, no wonder the joke might be a failure.


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One is the dramatic story of two young men whose friendship deteriorates as their lives take different directions. Following his release from prison, Charlie moves in with his best friend, Nick, a once promising baseball player, whose career was unexpectedly cut short when he assaulted his manager. As Charlie discovers his inherent self-worth by committing to a job, college and even love, Nick descends on a path that leads to frustration and failure.
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Cast: Paul Herman, Ed Lynch, Jason Cairns, Autumn Macintosh, Kane Picoy
Produced by: Wendy Cary
Directed by: Tony Barbieri
Written by: Jason Cairns, Tony Barbieri
Running time: 1hr 28min
Opens: Oct 13, 2000 Limited

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Episode 1
Timmy Learns Magic
Timmy is thrilled when he sees Osbourne practicing a conjuring act.
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Being an 'only lamb in the flock' Timmy has been used to getting his own way. Now for the first time Timmy is going to have to learn to get along with other little animals.
Animation, Kids
Suitable for all
Timmy Learns Magic
Timmy is thrilled when he sees Osbourne practicing a conjuring act.
Sticky Timmy
Harriet shows Timmy and his friends how to make a collage.
Timmy gets Spooked
It's Halloween and Timmy and his friends are having lots of spooky fun.
Sweet Dreams Timmy
It's Nap Time, but Timmy is too excited to sleep.
Timmy Learns to Fly
Timmy attempts to learn how to fly.
Timmy Finds Treasure
Timmy and his friends are having great fun playing pirates.
Timmy the Postman
It's Valentine's Day and Harriet is showing the class how to make cards.
Timmy's Truck
Timmy is determined to play with Otus's new remote-controlled truck.
Timmy Rings the Bell
Osbourne is helping the class to make their very own scarecrow.
Timmy's Tractor
The class is making things out of scrap.
Timmy's New Friend
The class is making things out of scrap.
Timmy's Birthday
It's Timmy's birthday and his friends make him a delicious cake.
Timmy's Plane
The class is making items out of folded paper, and Timmy is amazed by Finlay's.
Tidy Timmy
Timmy learns to tidy.
Timmy Bounces Back
Timmy and his friends are playing ball games.
Timmy's Tins
Osbourne is recycling the rubbish, and Timmy gets excited by the possibilities.
Timmy the Robot
Finlay brings his clockwork robot to Nursery.
Timmy's Treasure Trail
Harriet and Osbourne lay a treasure trail for the class.
Timmy Goes Camping
Harriet and Osbourne take the class to a neighbouring field.
Timmy's Pet Problem
Timmy finds an old mop-head and is convinced that it is a little animal.
Count On Timmy
The class is playing a shop game.
Timmy Makes a Splash
Everyone is having fun in the paddling pool until Stripey pulls the stopper out.
Timmy's Snowball
While playing in the snow, Timmy makes a little snowball.
Timmy's Monster
Timmy discovers some strange extra-large footprints in the snow!
Timmy Slips Up
Everyone is excited by the frosty playground.
Timmy's Snowman
Yabba is building a fantastic snowman, but Timmy thinks he can do better.
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How to beat the iPad 2 queues
Where can I get an iPad 2? That's the question on more lips than any other as the latest Apple tablet hits the shelves. It's a valid query. Ever since word came of higher than expected sales figures in the US, it's been pretty clear that the rest of the world's stocks would be thinner than hoped for.
Sites with pre-orders are two-a-penny and the queues at the Apple Stores are already half way around the block, so what are your options if you want to pick up an iPad 2 in minimal time with as little fuss as possible? Here's how it breaks down.
In Store
By far and away your best option is to head down to a shop and pick one up by hand. That way, it's a same day transaction, there's no waiting around and you get to play with your iPad 2 the minute you've parted with the money. The device is on sale from 5pm on 25 March 2011 and these are the shops you can get them from. Remember Apple is not the only store.
It may not be the only store but, for some, it's the first port of call. Most likely, Apple stores will have more stock of the particular colour and size that you're after. The downside is that the world and his wife have been camping the spawn for quite some time now. You can find a list of Apple Store locations here and our best advice is to call ahead and ask them how big the queue is at the moment. It may well be worth a drive to somewhere further away in order to wait less once you get there.
HMV has been the chosen store for the Nintendo 3DS launch, also on 25 March, but it's also stocking the Apple iPad 2 from 5pm as well. We called ahead and were told that not every branch has them but the one at the Trocadero, Piccadilly Circus, London will certainly have stock. You can find the list of HMV stores here. Pick up the phone and check before you go. Also, don't be fooled by a queue. It might just be for the 3DS instead.
PC World & Currys
PC World and Currys, as part of the same group, will be stocking the iPad 2 at 5pm today. The good news here is that there's lots and lots of these stores all over the UK and not every one of them is going to have a queue outside. Of course, not every one of them is guaranteed to have stock either, so make sure to check your local store and call ahead.
Best Buy
There's not an awful lot of Best Buys in Europe but you can bet your bottom Euro that this big US chain is not going to miss out on iPad 2 day. Pocket-lint called ahead to check and indeed they will be stocking the iPad 2 from 5pm. Rather than a straight queue, we were told that there'll be a ticketing system and it was even hinted to us that it might well be worth turning up at 12.30pm and checking the lay of the land. It could be possible to pick up a ticket then and maybe just come back at 5pm to grad your iPad.
Purveyor of all things Apple with a website so similar that you might forget where you are, StormFront also has plenty of high street presence as well. The reseller will be stocking the iPad 2 from 5pm today in all their store across the UK. Find your local branch, call ahead and get yourself down there after work.
Carphone Warehouse
Associated with flogging all things i-prefixed since the Jesus Phone, the Oxford Street, London, branches of the Carphone Warehouse have taken stock of the iPad 2 ready for sale from 5pm today. Given there's only a few stores where you can pick them up and only 10 devices in each, it might not be the best option but certainly one to consider if the queues outside the Apple Store round the corner are verging on the ludicrous.
While you might have to wait a while if you take the online order route, it seems that Vodafone is selling a tablet or iPad 2 in store from 5pm as well. Don't expect every one to be stuffed to the gunnels. Make your calls before your foot falls.
There's nought official from T-Mobile but we called one of their stores who mentioned that they would be taking consignment of a small number of iPad 2 devices by 5pm today. Now it may well be that these are preview versions only but butter up the staff on duty and you might just score yourself a deal.
Three has announced its iPad 2 price plans along with the news that it will be selling on the high street from 5pm in selected Three stores. The operator's site has more details but expect to have more luck if you go to Oxford Street rather than Kinlochbervie branch.
Our reporter on the ground can confirm that Phones4U is stocking just the one iPad 2 for each of its 50 stores nationwide which we believe has just entered the dictionary under the term "token gesture".
If you can't make it down to the shops, then you're going to have to go down the mail order route and that means not getting your hands on the iPad 2 on launch day. However, there are some places to buy from that will be quicker to post than others. These are your options.
For ultimate peace of mind and lots of nice pictures of hands holding iPads on white background, the best way to order online is by heading over to the Apple Store itself. The downside is that you'll have to wait between 2-3 weeks to actually get your parcel but at least you can enjoy being upsold plenty of accessories while you're there.
The Mobile Operators
Whether it's T-Mob, Orange, Vodafone or Three, or even the likes of the third parties out there in the shape of Phones4U and Carphone Warehouse, the mobile operators are already taking orders for the Apple iPad 2. Again, it's pretty much a 2 week wait as standard, so it's only really worth going to this lot if you're either a customer of theirs already or if Apple runs out.
Interestingly, O2 isn't actually selling the device but if you manage to pick one up elsewhere, you can get a plan and micro SIM to go with it from them.
You'll find a similar situation on just about any iPad 2 online retailer that you find. If Apple are holding out on a 2 week wait, you can bet that Jobs Inc. has demanded the same from everyone else. However, the "second hand" market is a place that won't suffer from such restrictions.
Head over to eBay, type in "iPad 2" and you'll find what you're looking for. Pretty much all of them will be brand new with some brought over from the States. There's a good chance you'll end up spending more than the official retail value but, if you arrange for collection, you might well be able to get your hands on one today and without a queue in sight. Whether the extra cost is worth it to you is your choice. Time is money, so how much is standing outside a shop worth to you?
Win an iPad 2
If none of the above takes your fancy, then how about picking up an Apple iPad 2 without so much as parting with a quid? It just so happens that we're giving away an iPad 2 on Pocket-lint courtesy of Gameloft. Click a few buttons on Facebook and the mutha could be yours.
Cool your boots
Most of all, we encourage you to get a grip. It's not our place to judge how important an iPad 2 is for you but, at the end of the day, if you want one, you'll get one. All good things come to those who wait, whether they include Abode Flash support and true multitasking or not.
Let us know if you've managed to pick up your iPad 2 and any queue flashes you might have to share.


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The Eighteenth Century Collections Online is a comprehensive digital collection of nearly 140,000 English-language titles covering all subjects published between 1701 and 1800 in the United Kingdom and North America (and including foreign-language titles printed in the UK). It allows both full-text searching of more than 33 million pages of material and sophisticated searches by subject, author, publisher, and back-of-the-book indexes.
Guest curated by graduate student Katie Wills
Stories from people who were children during World War II and the objects in this exhibit animate the past and inform us of a time when war took over daily life. "Retrospect is a very interesting thing," says Ruthie Kallnder. "At the time I don't recall any of the information we got as being propaganda," but the government tried to influence children to make "necessary" sacrifices. Propagandists made the war a battle between good and evil, democracy and fascism. They also asked children to share in the war effort. In response, many children took on more responsibilities. Ruthie explains that boys and girls felt "if that's what it was going to take" to win they "were willing to do it." The memories of the people in this exhibit and their wartime actions show the power of propaganda's messages and its lasting affect on their lives. Propaganda posters, children's books, and classroom assignments demonstrate how propagandists reached children and involved them in the national war effort.
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- Adel Bibi
- Amman
- Jordan
This conversation is closed.
Can anyone prove the existence of a supernatural deity?
I think that any philosophical ideal that isn't governed by the laws of physics will never be proven. Therefore, I guess all gods are just delusion. Whenever a person believes in god, that is because he found his parents doing so. Which means all our beliefs are nothing but a geographical accident!
Dec 6 2012: Greetings Adel,
I will try to be as clear as possible.
Supernatural means "above/beyond the natural" - which can be taken two ways; A. beyond our understanding of nature and B. beyond nature in general.
This is an important thing to note: 1. If we know there is knowledge beyond what we know as knowledge, this creates possible worlds where our knowledge is subject to change, even what we consider 'laws'. 2. If even our most profound and static laws are possible to be changed, then what can we know to be [objectively or absolutely] true?
The fact we cannot prove a non-human deity to exist, may not be a reason a non-human deity could exist, but does not justify a reason for that it cannot. Therefore, the claim cannot be proven either way to be true or false by any amount of reasoning.
"I think that any philosophical ideal that isn't governed by the laws of physics will never be proven."
I find this statement troubling. The laws of physics cannot explain the psychological natures of a human mind. In fact, there is no mathematical schema in which to measure our ability to think.This is why psychology is considered a 'soft science'... so any philosophical ideal out of a soft science will never be proven? Hardly the case. I would revise your position of what can be proven or not.
Now.. the core of the issue: Can a God/deity be proven to exist?
Yes. But, depends on your definition of God.
Abraham Maslow was a psychologist who investigated 'peak experience' or what Buddhist would call 'satori' - roughly; a moment in which an individual feels at one with the universe. This experience involves, usually, feeling an energy of all knowing and all accepting feelings. It can be argued these experiences are [mis]interpreted experiences of God.
So, if God is this universal consciousness, then God does exist, as many have experienced satori (empirically even). Whether this cosmic consciousness is a deity, well that is up to how you want to define deity.
Dec 6 2012: and we dont know if this so called cosmic consciousness is just a local brain state.
Dec 6 2012: I do believe consciousness is a force that permeates the universe, and if some mistaken that experience to be God - well, that's an issue, but would also be evidence in their favor of theism.
To add: I feel the emotions one experiences during their moments of God-thought are similar and comparable to those who have moments of the contrary; those who do not believe in God can feel the same feeling one does when they do in fact believe in a God.
Although this feeling is achieved in two contrary manners, perhaps the fact we are able to achieve this metaphysical comfort (of a psychoactive state of mind) may also be evidence of a God, therefore why would we need to have this experience unless it granted some benefit of metaphysical awareness.
Indeed it could be delusional, but we do not know yet - DMT may have answers. Check out the [cognitive] psychology of religion!
Dec 7 2012: Or your consciousness may reside as a product of your brain.
What makes you think there is some consciousness outside of brains?Dec 7 2012: Obey,
If it were just my mind that had experience supraconsciousness, I would say yes to it just my consciousness enhanced by meditation. But many people have said to experienced Peak Experience or Satori and their experiences overlap to the point where empirical data can show the reoccurring supraconsciousness experience has similarities to everyone. The feelings are subjective, but when a lot of subjective experiences stack up, there must be something there. I also do not claim to understand cosmic consciousness, but believe it exist in some form.
Check this out: http://supraconsciousnessnetwork.org/Home.htm
Go browse through the keywords and enjoy having your mind blown...
Dec 8 2012: Hi Nicholas,
I'm not surprised there are similarities. Our DNA, our brains, our cognitive processes are not that different.
You put my hand in a flame, I will feel pain the same way as you. Must be magic.
I meditate and get into a brain state and others do at church or whatever.
We take acid or MDMA and we have similar experiences.
You put people praying in an MRI and see their brain active in the same way. So our brain is part of it.
You just can't prove this experience is linked to something outside our mind.
I hope you can see that.
Our minds and brains and the natural universe are amazing. And today our understanding and knowledge is pushing the limits of our monkey brains, mine anyway.
Just thinking about being made of atoms, just thinking about what atoms are, what is outside the edge of the expanding universe etc. How does consciousness work, memory.
I think the difficulty we have comprehending, the strangeness of the natural universe is why people insert magic. It provides a similar explanation or replaces I don't know with no actual proof.
Our brains 100 Billion neurons with a 100 trillion connections. Every neuron made a complex cell, made from compounds and near countless atoms, and atoms made of x and y etc etc.
Its strange. Its counter intuitive. Your explanation might be right. That would be a fluke, because there is no proof.
I'm not arguing the experiences, I'm arguing about the interpretations of these. You might find some intuitive speculative explanation fits your world view. But it is still a position from ignorance.
Like NDE, like alien abductions. People experienced something, but the interpretation are yet to be convincingly proven if you have reasonable skepticism and an open mind.
Wilbert Hunt
Dec 7 2012: "What makes you think there is some consciousness outside of brains?"
- +2
What makes you think there isn't?
Neither mind nor consciousness has been found in the brain, only physical activity associated with brain activity. We can find similar activity--reception activity--in a radio and television set when they're on, and we associate that activity with the processing of radio and television signals from a transmission source that will ultimately become sounds in one, and sounds and sights in another, and we do so without thinking that the sounds and sights originated within either radio or television.
The brain, although a more complex receiver, is none the less, a receiver.
Dec 9 2012: Any evidence for the brain being a receiver.
Anything physical indicative of it being a receiver?
Or just more unsubstantiated speculation?
Yet we have no evidence for consciousness or mind without brains.
The only good thing about your argument is it is unverifiable.
As the brain deteriorates, cognitive functions suffer, like dementia. It seems as the brain is damaged so is functionaluty as the biological source of mind, awareness, intelligence etc. I guess you can assert without proof that the receiver is damaged.Dec 10 2012: Obey,
The examples I will provide will not be suffice for you, because you already made up your mind.
But... Ever walk into a room and felt a mood? Ever get a vibe that something was wrong with someone?
Yes, your body can unconsciously be reading these things right? Well, what are they reading? Subtle signs? Faces? Postures? A variation of these things? Do you honestly believe your sub- and unconsciousness can actually know the mood or vibe is different because of little variables?
We, all, off put energy... This energy is a not in of itself consciousness, but when received can form a consciousness. There are developing empirical test where they ask what people believe 'angry' and 'happy' energy looks like on a person and to draw the thoughts... when done a few hundred times they overlapped the results and found a striking consistency. Angry was crazy like fire, and happiness was not really near the head (I believe).
There exist celestial energies... astrology is the oldest pseudoscience for a reason (what reason?). Well the fact there are energies that effect us, like the moon. A lot of farmers do not pick their crops during a certain cycle of the moon because the water is all in the roots, and not spread through the plant (less tasty plant).
For any of this to be half way believable, you're going to have to look into it yourself to try and find the falsehoods. I hate the phrase "the burden of truth is..." because you have to want to entertain a thought before you can see it, especially if it is supranatural. Go keep reading the link I sent you. It's good stuff.Dec 7 2012: @Nicholas Lukowiak,
Excuse my English as it's not my first language.
I'd like to set this clear. I don't believe that such "Absolute truth" can ever exist. Every thing is relative. This really makes my life miserable because there is exactly no basis by which I can set up my mind on any topic.
But I think science is an exception here.
Scientists couldn't SO FAR explain the fully behavior of our brain, we probably don't have a 1% understanding of the human brain. But if we went back to history, you will know that science has so far solved most of the problems and un-answered questions of the past.
People in the dark ages in fact believed that god was responsible for people getting sick, until science came and discovered that there are micro living orgasms that is actually responsible for diseases.
So, I believe if science can not understand the human brain, it will in the future.
It's not because we don't have good answers about the human consciousness and how it may extend beyond our brain, we say "this is an indication that something is up there".
Quantum mechanics teaches up how an electron due to the wave function can be in lots of places at once, as we are all made of subatomic particles, it's likely that one of the subatomic particles that make up our brain was actually outside our body and somehow interacted with another person's brain which causes "telepathic thought exchange". It may be the answer to the " super consciousness experience".
All i'm trying to say that what you mentioned about weird and mind blowing facts about " super consciousness experience" could be explained by quantum mechanics and there are in facts lots of theories going on.
As far as I see, science will manage to answer all the questions as long as the human race didn't actually extinct. :)
Wilbert Hunt
Dec 8 2012: "People in the dark ages in fact believed that god was responsible for people getting sick, until science came and discovered that there are micro living orgasms that is actually responsible for diseases."
- +1
Actually, the jury is still out on this, not the part about God being responsible for disease, but that "micro living organisms" are "responsible."
Witnessing the deterioration of the body after death, and the subsequent presence of maggots, we might assume that maggots caused the death of the body. The presence of "micro living organisms" suggests a disease within the body, but that presence alone cannot be said to have caused it, and neither can the absence of the organisms, nor the eradication of them, be said to have effected a cure.
"So, I believe if science can not understand the human brain, it will in the future."
It's not the "brain" that science has trouble "understanding," it's the mind and the consciousness that supposedly emanate from the brain, that perplex science, and has given rise to what is termed the mind-body dilemma, or the mind-body problem.
Mind is so unlike matter that it boggles the mind that matter can produce that which is so unlike itself.
From my vantage point, and my experience, science will never fully understand the relationship between mind and the brain with the assumption that brain gives rise to consciousness, rather than existing as a receiver of thoughts that originate outside the brain.
"It may be the answer to the 'super consciousness experience'."
A clever proposition, but it still doesn't answer all the questions associated with mind, such as the experiences associated with NDE's and prediction.
It appears that science, and those who subscribe to it, have a difficult time theorizing a non-physical cause for the mysteries associated with the mind.
Without a non-physical hypothesis, the dilemma between mind and matter, the brain and consciousness, will persist, and will forever evade the brightest of minds.Dec 10 2012: What people believe is or may be God will also be discovered in the future by science, by your own thoughts... whether it is a neurological mechanism involved with joy and all-knowing... if God is an actual omni-being... if God is this conscious-force that permeates the universe... or two or three... until then... do not make claims you do not know, because the burden of proof is on you to claim no-God, just like it is for those who do claim God.
Keep the question open, entertain all possibilities...
Vincent Moon
Dec 6 2012: Well one argument for a God is the First Mover argument. You of course must know Newton's 1st and 3rd laws, which govern all physical motion, and state that an object that is at rest stays at rest until an external force is applied to it, as well as that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
- +3
So if you are moving right now it is because some force acted on you, and in order for whatever acted on you to have moved something must have acted on it, and so on indefinitely.
These laws being found true for all physical things goes to show that if all objects were at rest at some point, then nothing would have ever moved and the universe would be completely still.
The universe is on the contrary not still and full of constantly moving parts, so there must have been some variable (we can call it "x" for now) that acted on something else without itself being acted on; in other words the First Mover, which could not have possibly been a physical thing, because it violates the very first law of physics in that it moved without any external force being applied to it.
This is a problem which has bothered physicists for centuries and still goes unanswered. Many highly intelligent people who have encountered this issue simply replace that "x" or First Mover variable with the word "God", and regardless of how strongly you may find your laws of physics to be, they have gotten no closer to answering this question then any Faith in a deity has, and until you can disprove a "First Mover" you will never be able to disprove a God.
Dec 6 2012: Forces don't need initial movement to begin acting: all you need to disprove that "first mover" argument is two magnets...
Vincent Moon
Dec 6 2012: A magnet is an object that has a magnetic field (magnetic field is that part of the electromagnetic field that exerts a force on a moving charge. A magnetic field can only be caused by another moving charge (i.e., by an electric current), and is thus reliant on that charge's initial movement. I'm no physicist, but Newton was, and it's going to be a pretty tough argument if you're trying to disprove his founding law of all physics.
- +2
Dec 6 2012: "A magnetic field can only be caused by another moving charge"
Permanent magnets are caused by spin, which makes electrons behave like rotate charges (that you cannot slow down or accelerate, only reverse direction) even though they're point particles and thus cannot rotate, this has nothing to do with the macroscopic movements of the magnet itself. I am a physicist and I can tell you that if you wish you can switch the magnets for two electric charges (but harder to visualize) or two masses. You seem to know some of the terms but you lack understanding of the principles behind them. If you do not understand that forces can cause motion without there having been initial motion then you do not understand classical mechanics.Dec 8 2012: False. Electrons and protons experience both repulsion and attractions that don't depend on them moving. Their charges do the repulsion/attraction. ANother example of a force is gravitation. So, forces that can start/stop movements are there. A conscious prime mover is not justified either way. Even supposing that there's a need for prime movers, they don't need to be conscious, or supernatural. They can be properties of reality (like the attraction.repulsion of charges in subatomic particles). It can also be that the natural/initial state of affairs is movement, thus making the idea of a prime mover unnecessary. Why would the natural state be firm and unmoved, rather than the other way around? Why should Newtonian laws of motion be applicable to all states of physical reality if these laws derive from our most proximal, thus limited, physical experience?
So the prime mover idea requires us to buy into unwarranted assumptions.Dec 6 2012: Well it sounds like the charges you refer to rely on the law of inertia, because they remain at a constant velocity forever, but in in order for these charges to be in motion they must be in response to some previous action a long time ago. If you could theoretically have an electron at rest then you could not get that electron to move or "spin" without imposing some initial force on it. It's great to hear from an actual physicist, but to be clear you are physicist who rejects Newton's First Law of Motion?
Dec 8 2012: "but in in order for these charges to be in motion they must be in response to some previous action a long time ago"
Why? Why assume that they had to have been at rest initially?
Vincent Moon
Dec 8 2012: @Entropy Driven
- +1
Your argument is the most logical I've heard so far, but still doesn't explain the cause of anything. Science is not aimed at simply answering "what?"; it has to also answer "How?". You seem to think that repulsion and attraction just happen, without cause and without explanation. This is completely unscientific, and although the causes of repulsion/attraction have not been found, a real physicist would never argue that the causes do not exist.
Gravity is another problem that physicists have yet to answer. They have answered What?: a force that attracts a body towards any other physical body having mass, but not How? And the answer to that question is down a rabbit hole that physicts have been unable to reach for now.
Gravity does bring up another interesting thought though, which is that if its force brings masses together and is found all throughout the universe, then what is the force which ever seperated these masses in the first place? The Big Bang? what caused that? and more importantly how?Dec 6 2012: the question is whether you can prove a deity
not disprove magical unverifiable fallacious human concepts or hypothesis
Surely you can see the error in - everything needs a cause, except I'll invent a first cause that doesn't. Special pleading. Suggest we don't know much about before the big bang or whatever and to posit a deity is an argument from ignorance.
Dec 6 2012: "That is pretty weak proof."
Why am I not surprised that you value your existence so little?
"Suggest we don't know much about before the big bang or whatever and to posit a deity is an argument from ignorance."
Frankly, science knows pathetically little about what occurred before the "big bang," as "ignorance" abounds as to our origin and that of the universe.
Anything that has the appearance of facts or knowledge (from a scientific perspective) is so speculative, that the inference of a God, or a deity in the process is as valid as the scientific guesswork that often passes as profound insight.
It's not!Dec 7 2012: @ Obey I was simply stating that the physical laws which we agree on and employ in every aspect of physics cannot explain the origins of the universe we observe around us.
"Surely you can see the error in - everything needs a cause, except I'll invent a first cause that doesn't. Special pleading."
The things we hold true can be of two types; either material or immaterial. The laws of physics apply to all material things and state that material things cannot move without an initial action, and as result cannot explain the origins of our universe. You misunderstood me, I am not inventing a first material thing which caused the first movement; that would be a fallacy. No material thing could have made the first movement, unless all that we know in physics is based off of fallacy. Therefore, the initial cause must have been immaterial and not subject to physical laws, and is as of now, incomprehensible to us. Your opinions on what that initial cause could be, or whether or not you call it "God" or "deity" are not of my concern. As for other's specific concepts on what that "God" or "deity" means to them personally; I make no attempt to disprove or prove any of them.Dec 7 2012: @Vincent Moon,
You proposed a very nice idea, although there is a small mistake.
When you claim to have a first or "initail" cause for the forces to start by which you called "First Mover", you implicitly say there has been time before the big bang for the first mover to exist.
This dilema takes us back to the causality problem? what caused the big bang to bang?
The question is wrong in this case, because for events to happen there has to be a cause. While cause and effect only happnes in the correct order when there is time sperating betwee them (event, cause).
When you have no time, that means you could simply have a (cause) then you have an (event), or you could simply have (a cause and effect at the exact moment).
So there is no meaning for causality if you have no time. Therefore the universe doesn't actually need a first mover just like it doesn't need to have a cause. Then, the laws of Newton's mechanics can not be applied in our case.
Excuse my English,
Vincent Moon
Dec 7 2012: Time is just a word we use to understand the specific order in which we experience events. Regardless of whether or not "time" existed as we know it, before the Big Bang, science would tell us that something (as in something physical) could not come from nothing, and therefore everything physical must have a cause. Even if the the "cause" and the "effect" were to exist simultaneously because of the lack of what we call "time", the latter effect would still be unable to exist without the former cause. Science will never be able to fully answer questions on how something (matter) came from nothing, so logically the answer to that question will come from somewhere else. God? perhaps.
- +1
Adel Bibi
Dec 3 2012: Science doesn't have to disprove anything.
- +2
I think whoever claims something has to give the evidence. So, if science can't disprove something that doesn't make that thing true.
As a wise man once said: "The lack of evidence is NOT evidence".
Other than that, I'm a 100% with you!
John Smith
Dec 3 2012: "So, if science can't disprove something that doesn't make that thing true."
- +1
Which is exactly what I said: when you have an idea that cannot be disproven then that idea is unscientific and probably not true, so I think you misunderstood me.
This will help you understand: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm
Dec 4 2012: I guess I miss spoke when I said "Other than that", all I did is pilling on what you've said earlier.
I agree with all what you've said.
The link you provided for Carl Sagan's dilemma was getting right to the point, love it!Dec 4 2012: People often say absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
But think about it.
Having no compelling evidence to support a belief is not a strong case to believe it. Especially when making supernatural claims. Extra ordinary claims should have extra ordinary evidence. Not all the conflicting subjective rationales, the reliance on unproven human claims and writings.
Anyone can see religions are human constructs. Usually started by men.
Yahweh is god, is just as compelling as saying allah is god, or JEsus is god, or Vishnu, or that I have a ghost living in the shed and a dragon god in the garden. Unverifiable is not a strong case to believe.
In our life, we can not really distinguish between what the universe would be like with or without these invisible gods. They are unnecessary complexity, arguments from ignorance.
Dec 4 2012: I couldn't agree more!Dec 16 2012: I agree, nobody can prove the existence of a supernatural deity. What prompted you to ask the question?Dec 13 2012: Agreed. While there may be a deity or more than one god, it is impossible to prove it, and doing so can prove detrimental. For those of you who have read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, remember how one can disprove the existence of God, by proving it with the Babel fish? God, if he exists, depends on faith, and if faith is not needed to accept him, he does not exist. Therefore, God cannot be proved nor disproved.Dec 10 2012: I believe that there is nothing supernatural but only that which we do not understand..
CheersDec 10 2012: Wilbert, I'm curious if you are open or completely closed to the possibility that life just being a purely physical, biological phenomena?
Can you imagine the possibility of a universe with life that did not involve magic?
Or by your definition is life impossible without some magical life force?
Do you agree with the biblical 6 days and < 10,000 year old universe or the scientific 13.7 billion years?
Do you accept evolution? With or without magical intervention. Or do you believe humans and all life were pretty much created as is?
Do you think it possible that purely physical brains could develop, and these evolve from reptilian, to mammalian, to human brains with our frontal neo cortex?
Can you imagine a brain/mind such as we have is a possibility, without the mysticism. Could a purely biological machine develop that contains consciousness?
I admit there could be a supernatural realm, just see no convincing evidence, just lots of speculation.
Interested to hear if there could be an alternate universe to the one you imagine we inhabit, where life and mind could develop without the supernatural?
Dec 12 2012: "[A]re open or completely closed to the possibility that life just being a purely physical, biological phenomena?"
Were you acquainted with the breadth of my total experiences with what you refer to as the "supernatural," you, too, wouldn't question the existence of a non-physical world.
My experiences in this world preclude the "possibility" that I could concur with your view. For reason that you wouldn't understand and would deride if I revealed them, I hesitate to discuss these things in this forum, as it opens up that which I would rather keep closed.
"Can you imagine the possibility of a universe with life that did not involve magic?"
You use the word "magic" often, but it belittles what I believe and doesn't invite conversation as much as it repulses it.
"Do you agree with the biblical 6 days and < 10,000 year old universe or the scientific 13.7 billion years?"
The six days of creation, is not what it seems, as well as the Creation Stories (There are two.) which very few fully understand, or even partially understand. These stories are more accurate than you know, but in ways that aren't obvious to most.
"Do you accept evolution? With or without magical intervention. Or do you believe humans and all life were pretty much created as is?"
In terms of creation, the universe, including our world, wasn't created in "6 days" but in the Holy Moment of Now, since time doesn't really exist, and from our limited, human perspective, it took billions of years of evolution to bring us to this point--our current place in time.
Our physical universe, including our physical bodies, are supported by a non-material, not-physical matrix. Socrates alluded to this and referred to it as "correspondence," the seen existing because of the unseen.
"Do you think it possible that purely physical brains could develop."
No. Such a possibility violates reality, a position that Dr. Alexander now holds: "Its the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profieth nothing.
Dec 13 2012: Hi Wilbert, I respect your discretion not to detail your experiences that make you absolutely certain life and the universe could not be something natural.
Whether it be out of body experiences, NDE, hearing the voice of god etc, I don't deny the experience, just the interpretation.
Sorry but I can not take your word on it. I need something more compelling before accepting various often contradictory supernatural claims.
Dr Alexander may be largely correct, but it is not reasonably proven that his interpretation is correct..
We agree on evolution I guess.
Re magic, the word is perhaps provocative, but that is appropriate, virgin births, talking donkies, demons, angels, gods, afterlifes, spirits, they are akin to magic. Magic stuff exists and magic happens, we have no proof or understanding how etc. Magic.Dec 12 2012: "I admit there could be a supernatural realm, just see no convincing evidence, just lots of speculation."
Evidence abounds, and because it's so commonplace we dismiss it. Daily we enter the non-physical realm which we call the "supernatural realm." Our souls need the rest that come from being fully enveloped in its natural element.
We dismiss this "realm" by calling it sleep and dreaming. There we create all kind of experiences to augment the experiences that we create here. In dreams--created constructs--cause and effect are often immediate. Here, in this world, because of the contrivance of time, cause and effect may take some time to develop.
For me, the time between cause and effect can be almost immediate, which is why I must tread carefully.
"Interested to hear if there could be an alternate universe to the one you imagine we inhabit, where life and mind could develop without the supernatural?"
Using your definition of "supernatural," all is supernatural, which means that nothing is, as what we refer to as the "supernatural" is preeminently natural.
As Dr. Alexander was told, and my experiences bear out, there are an infinite number of universes, and realities, and worlds, and worlds within worlds--and no end to smallness as there's no end to bigness.
I wish that you could see what I see, and experience what I experience, but alas, we're all subject to our beliefs, here and in what we term the afterlife--which indeed it is--as life never ends.
Dec 14 2012: We have seem to have av different understanding of what constitutes evidence or is required to prove these sorts of claims.
I remember a conversation with a theist, who suggested the evidence for a creator was creation.
If you can't see how circular that is, how that does not suffice for many of us......
Stating the evidence for a particular subjective interpretation is other related subjective interpretations doesn't work. It does not demonstrate your claim to be correct.
Let's pick dreaming and sleeping. Your assert this is evidence for what I consider supernatural because you assert we have spirits, and they get tired and need to connect to the asserted spiritual realm.
All you are showing is some internal consistency in your beliefs. How is one unverifiable claim proven by another? Its not.
How do you demonstrate your interpretation is correct. We sleep, we dream, is not proof.
Again I guess we just have very different standards for verifying these sorts of claims.Dec 8 2012: That which is mind created ...is in an action called "belief" of a God or anything else ....is mind created (you can say geographical / or cultural accident etc etc) therefore temporary / temporarily / existing for as long as that mind is active and believes it.
Proofs are alway objective because they require objective/dualistic/ mind "thinking" .....Absolute Truth/Source itself ( that which so many religions call "God") requires no proof ...it is not an "Ideal" ..... it is the source of all / it is not Dualistic (therefore cannot 'know' self) but without it existence / thought / experience / etc would not arise.
So as the old song goes......You can say what it is by saying want it is not......iow The process of negation.Dec 7 2012: "Is your view of god managing every aspect of what I consider naturasl forces and processes."
God is One. Directly or indirectly, God is behind all causes and effects, but not all causes and effects are rooted in reality. Some are illusions.
"How do you know there are gods."
Because we fit the general description of "gods": invincible, all-knowing, and don't die.
"How do you know there are gods ...That they made the universe"
Because we're still doing so: We are creation machines, creating universes and realities with every thought, with every desire, with ever imagining.
"Why is the bible a valid reference for supernatural claims."
Because of the validity of its instructions, which many are proving in their personal experiences, from day to day.
"Do you know what the authors meant by firmament and lights."
Yes, as well as the whole text dealing with creation (the Creation Story), not only Chapter One, but Two, as well. It's not what you think it is, but this is not the proper forum for a full exegesis of what the text is saying and what it means.
"Do you think they knew our sun is a star etc."
The author knew more than your scientists are willing to admit, despite their supposed superior methods, and their focus on empiricism.
"I guess I don't agree with your starting premise of god, creation etc."
You can start at any point in the narrative, but it still won't obviate the obvious: At some point, we have to acknowledge A Beginning--"In the Beginning God."
Actually, it's inescapable, and science will always founder under its own weight, unless it factors in a deity, and that dreaded "intelligent design."
"I don't agree with your assumption of some transcendent realm etc."
It's not my "assumption." Our whole world exists as a "transcendental realm," and that ream has added immeasurably to our life and our lifestyle. What can be more "transcendental" than math, and how it has transformed our current society--indeed our world?
Dec 8 2012: Hi Wilbert,
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I acknowledge we don't have all the answers. Injecting a magical god into this is an argument from ignorance.
I also point out that you pick and choose what has a beginning and what doesn't. That is the logical fallacy of special pleading.
Some might say time started with the big bang. So before that is irrelevant. Assuming agency is involved again is just speculation
I agree math is real, and demonstrable. Spirit and mystical realms, no proof, just speculation.
Do you know who wrote Genesis? Got the authors name? If so you are doing better than biblical scholars.
Do you also support killing homosexuals and people who work on the sabbath. Up for animal sacrifice? Are you impressed with the endorsement of slavery and genocide in the bible? Not very enlightened. Rather brutal bronze/iron age.
Again, did they know our sun is a star?
Nothing in genesis that the people of the time would not invent. Not that different in many respects from other conflicting mythologies.
Science has done fine looking for natural explanations. IF there is something supernatural it is losing ground to natural explanations, and remains in the areas we are ignorant and able to speculate wildly.
You are starting with a falalciious argument to assume a creator.
You throw in human cognitive experiences that could and most likely are completely natural and not linked to supernatural. If they are no one can prove it. And make your own intuitive connections with no real proof. While others make other intuitive connections.
Your certainty astounds me.
Your wild assertions and baseless claims are a bit sad if you can not see how weak these poisitons are and that an ounce of skepticism and they fail.
So other than the uncaused cause, subjective mystical experiences, doubtful texts, any real proof. Anything convincing, or is the fallacious and subjective all you have?
Dec 8 2012: I leave you with this final response: A neurosurgeon, Eben Alexander, wrote a book entitled, "Proof of Heaven," after a Near Death Experience (NDE). He called it a "neurosurgeon's journey into the afterlife."
More here: http://www.amazon.com/Proof-Heaven-Neurosurgeons-Journey-Afterlife/dp/1451695195/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355005227&sr=8-1&keywords=proof+of+heaven+by+eben+alexander
An accompanying description of the book, reads as follow:
Thousands of people have had near-death experiences, but scientists have argued that they are impossible. Dr. Eben Alexander was one of those scientists. A highly trained neurosurgeon, Alexander knew that NDEs feel real, but are simply fantasies produced by brains under extreme stress.
"Then, Dr. Alexander's own brain was attacked by a rare illness. The part of the brain that controls thought and emotion—and in essence makes us human—shut down completely. For seven days he lay in a coma. Then, as his doctors considered stopping treatment, Alexander's eyes popped open. He had come back.
"Alexander's recovery is a medical miracle. But the real miracle of his story lies elsewhere. While his body lay in coma, Alexander journeyed beyond this world and encountered an angelic being who guided him into the deepest realms of super-physical existence. There he met, and spoke with, the Divine source of the universe itself."
We know the courage it must have taken for this neurosurgeon to deviate from the accepted norm of his profession, and to face the ensuing skepticism and derision that greeted his discussion of an "afterlife," notwithstanding the circumstances that prompted that discussion.
"Your certainty astounds me."
If so, then the "certainty" with which Dr. Alexander writes will blow your mind.Dec 9 2012: Dr. Alexander remonstrated thus, about those who summarily dismisses the possiblity of an "extended consciousness," without giving it a fair hearing:
"Like many other scientific skeptics, I refused to even review the data relevant to the questions concerning these phenomena. I prejudged the data, and those providing it, because my limited perspective failed to provide the foggiest notion of how such things might actually happen. Those who assert that there is no evidence for phenomena indicative of extended consciousness, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, are willfully ignorant. They believe they know the truth without needing to look at the facts. For those still stuck in the trap of scientific skepticism, I recommend the book Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century, published in 2007. The evidence for out-of-body consciousness is well presented in this rigorous scientific analysis. Irreducible Mind is a landmark opus from a highly reputable group, the Division of Perceptual Studies....
Alexander III M.D., Eben (2012-10-23). Proof of Heaven (p. 153). Simon & Schuster, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
Dec 9 2012: I don't doubt these experiences. I have discussed with family member who had one. Just like feelings of being connected to a god or religious type visions or visions while having a stroke, or imagining you are ta
Talking to Jesus or powers etc, you can prove they are not just brain based experiences.
Any proof of god someone who requires reasonable evidence might accept?
None so far in this conversation.
By the way I have an open mind to , even the existence of gods and goddesses, just I accept we don't know whether just misinterpreting experiences. We van not confirm the supernatural explanation.Dec 9 2012: "I have discussed with family member who had one."
Was the "family member" a neuroscientist?
"I know there will be people who will seek to invalidate my experience anyhow, and many who will discount it out of court, because of a refusal to believe that what I underwent could possibly be "scientific"— could possibly by anything more than a crazy, feverish dream. But I know better. And both for the sake of those here on earth and those I met beyond this realm, I see it as my duty— both as a scientist and hence a seeker of truth, and as a doctor devoted to helping people— to make it known to as many people as I can that what I underwent is true, and real, and of stunning importance. Not just to me, but to all of us. Not only was my journey about love, but it was also about who we are and how connected we all are— the very meaning of all existence. I learned who I was up there, and when I came back, I realized that the last broken strands of who I am down here were sewn up. You are loved.
"So here I am. I'm still a scientist, I'm still a doctor, and as such I have two essential duties: to honor truth and to help heal. That means telling my story. A story that as time passes I feel certain happened for a reason. Not because I'm anyone special. It's just that with me, two events occurred in unison and concurrence, and together they break the back of the last efforts of reductive science to tell the world that the material realm is all that exists, and that consciousness, or spirit— yours and mine— is not the great and central mystery of the universe.
"I'm living proof."
Alexander III M.D., Eben (2012-10-23). Proof of Heaven (p. 171). Simon & Schuster, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
Dec 10 2012: Hi Wilbert, after her NDE my aunty believes there is an afterlife, but concedes she does not know for certain.
Just like dreams or hallucinations feel real, I don't doubt the doctors experience, but this is not proof of life after death.
If a person claims they awoke and saw and felt the weight of small demons dancing around on their legs, I'm open to accepting they had the experience, that it felt real. Its another thing to claim with certainty it was demons and not a hallucination.
How do you tell the difference between an hallucination and really experiencing something supernatural?Dec 10 2012: "Just like dreams or hallucinations feel real, I don't doubt the doctors experience."
Here's my point: Dr. Alexander isn't just any doctor: He's a neuroscientist, one steeped in the science, and one aware of the supposed connection between mind and brain and consciousness and mind. From that vantage point--his training and his professional knowledge--he knew that it was "impossible" for his brain, and therefore his mind, to experience anything under his medical condition, a bacterial meningitis-caused coma, be it hallucinations or what have you.
Dr. Alexander is preeminently qualified to speak about the events of his illness, experientially, and as a scientist who's acquainted with the applicable literature and the limits of the brain, as it relates to consciousness.
This is why his experience--albeit as anecdotal as mine--carries the indisputable weight that it does: he's not a layperson, but a scientist, one in possession of the current knowledge that surrounds the events of his medical condition, and his coma-related experiences.
Unlike my experiences, his experiences cannot be dismissed as easily--or shouldn't be--as he brings to his experiences the perspective of a doctor, a scientist, and one who wasn't necessarily a believer in a deity before his experience, but who has, since his experience, embraced what many in his field thought was impossible--God and an "extended consciousness.".
Sure, you can still dismiss his experience as "hallucinations," but that's an easy and dismissive way not to exam the data or the findings he's brought to the fore--offering up, as he does, new insights into the matter of brain and consciousness, insights that challenge our current views of reality, and our current views of the afterlife.
Dec 10 2012: I do put more weight on the opinion of a neuroscientist.
I disagree it is indisputable.
Also, the opinions of other scientists also count, even if they have not had an NDE.
And my own basic understanding and experience do not find anything that rules out a natural explanation.
you need to be careful with arguments from authority.
Suggest the question is open.
Even if there is some supernatural spirit that exists beyond death we don't know if it is hallucinating. Maybe all the spirits are just a spiritual hallucination. How do we know if they are the spirits of other beings or just a spirit dreaming. No way to verify it.Dec 11 2012: "you need to be careful with arguments from authority."
A caveat without a reason.
Disagree with his "authority" or not, but his "argument" and his opinion carry more force, and more weight than yours or mine: Our expertness and knowledge in the field of neuroscience doesn't begin to compare.
"Also, the opinions of other scientists also count."
And Dr. Alexander has given their "opinion" full consideration, which a perusal of his book would have revealed.
Further, neuroscientists and others--most of them, actually--would be loathe to support his position, even if they were inclined to do so, for fear of being ostracized by their respective scientific communities, and found guilty of committing scientific heresy.
The biggest impediment to scientific breakthroughs come not from those on the outside, but from those within the scientific community--too often compelled to conform to the groupthink that governs their scientific pursuits, eclipsing their willingness to deviate from the norm, or to present hypotheses that would raise collective eyebrows.
"I have had waking dreams."
Lucid dreams or lucid dreaming is not the same as an NDE. Not even close. And neither is a "lucid dream" the same as an OOBE.
"Suggest the question is open."
Open for now, for some, but the door on the question is quickly closing, now that one so qualified as Dr. Alexander has come forward with his experience and his renewed focus on the subject from his current perspective--a perspective from a respected scientist and teacher who's convinced that "extended consciousness" exists, a position that he wouldn't have considered even remotely, before his bacterial meningitis-induced coma that almost ended his life, and the "weight," yes the "weight," that his position as a neuroscientist lends both to his argument, and to penetrating the layered walls that heretofore surrounded the brain-mind dilemma.
Gail .
Dec 5 2012: .
- 0
@Obey 1.....
I was thinking of the twin slit experiment where it appears that the photon (or electron) chose which slit to pass through or knew that the slits were being modified, thus changed its behaviors. (The spooky at a distance part)
Dec 10 2012: A lot of what we have discovered and have reasonably scientifically verified is spooky, counter intuitive etc. Especially the last few hundred years.
Atoms, sub atomic particles. Billions of galaxies each with billions of stars.
Go back a 100 years or so and the only known galaxy was the milkyway. The others were called nebulae, the telescopes were not good enough to make out the details.
Go back a few hundred more years and the sun was not a star, and we though it rotated the earth.
Disease being the result of microscopic bacteria and viruses.
Plate tectonics. To think solid land is kind of floating.
The DNA linking all living things, showing we are cousins.
The amazing discoveries about our minds/brains etc.
How do we conceptualise matter and energy?
It is amazing, and I'm sure we will find more strangeness. Stretching my poor primate brain that evolved to deal with things that it could eat or harm it.
I guess I just draw the line different to others in terms of where the speculation and intuitive leaps and intuition without evidence.
I see people projecting and interpreting old mystical stuff through the lens of 21st understanding, without understanding that people thousands of years ago, even hundreds, even today in the Amazon or PNG where they still kill witches have a completely different world view.Dec 4 2012: No
Dec 4 2012: Agreed.Dec 4 2012: we can argue forever - unless we have a definition of what we're talking about. cause i'm talking about God/deity haveing "x" definition in my mind, someone has "y" definition and other person can have "z" or "m" definition. and we all call him/it god
basis on that definition we can discuss
eg: "god is that which is above all laws of physics" - that means he probably has no personality - because as we know it personality is developed by brain cells, hormones & such
and so on
personaly i think it's imossible for al all powerful - all knowing - being with personality to exist (as we most know God should be) & that religion is dependant on where you are bornDec 4 2012: Science has no way to measure the supernatural. Science has been developed to discover the mysteries of the universe, but there is no way to properly test certain things and this is an accepted fact in many scientific communities. Supernatural events may not be testable at the moment, but there is still the possibility that some day we may be able to track the power of prayer or something else supernatural. Both you and I have no way of developing proof for the existence of non-existence of certain supernatural entities so it falls on us to pick what we believe or do not believe. There are many things we know exist, but have not yet discovered such as how to measure where tornadoes develop. Someday we will find a way to measure these things utilizing science, but to this point we are stuck theorizing.Dec 4 2012: You've got a contradiction in terms in your question. Something that qualifies as supernatural does not exist in reality, does it?
Dec 4 2012: Well, what believers say is that god can show his face and contact with people in reality even if he/she does not exist in reality.
Even if god didn't exist, believers tend to prove him by showing off the beauty of the universe and how all the physical constants are finely tuned for our existence.Dec 3 2012: Even the sciences like physics proceed from first principles that are unprovable, just like religion, philosophy, and mathematics.
Dec 3 2012: They can however be disproven and that's what matters.
Dec 3 2012: I should have been more clear, sorry. First principles can neither be proven, nor disproven. Anything that could be disproven would hardly be a first principle.
Dec 4 2012: I'm pretty sure at least some axioms in mathematics and physics could be disproven through observation of the opposite. For example the discovery of a path between two points that's shorter than a straight line between those points, or an observed violation of conservation of momentum.Dec 4 2012: Saying something is a first principle because it can't be dis proven is a relative say. Because we might not have enough understanding for the universe nor technology that will allow us to disprove the principle. So the idea of "First Principles" are only valid for certain time until new science is developed in a way that shapes our understanding to the universe which will disprove that principle.
Do you think that at any time before 1940's people were ever able to disprove the so called collar y "One thing can not exist in two places at once?"Dec 4 2012: False. First principles can be so evident that trying to prove them wrong is contradictory. Supernatural deities are not first principles, their are conceptually very complex, and thus not first principles.Dec 3 2012: "Prove" is subjective.
What proof would you accept?
Be careful of the word delusion. A couple centuries ago the concept of an automobile, telephone, or microwave oven would have been considered a delusion. Today, it may seem inconceivable that anyone will ever prove the existence of a supernatural deity Tomorrow, that deity might be sitting at your dining table, explaining to you all of your actual delusions.
IMO, it is delusional to believe that our puny senses are adequate to understand the universe (or multiverse). There is certainly no particular reason to believe so.
It is important to understand the limits of our knowledge.
John Smith
Dec 3 2012: ""Prove" is subjective"
- +2
That's quasi-philosophical nonsense. Some opinions are more rational than others and when you've disproven something you've come closer to figuring out how the universe actually works, no matter how many billions politicians and their spindoctors will spend to convince you otherwise.
Dec 4 2012: Not nonsense. Proof requires a level of evidence. Among different individuals, that level varies.
Some people look around at the world and everything they see, touch and hear is evidence that god exists. For these people, the level of evidence required for proof is very low.
For other people, an argument containing only words, with no empirical support is sufficient.
For some people, no amount of evidence of any kind is sufficient.
For most of us, a one-on-one conversation with god would convince us of her existence, but it would not provide empirical proof acceptable to others.
Still others hear and read the many subjective experiences that indicate the existence of spiritual entities, and that is sufficient proof.
My question was not intended as rhetorical.
What proof would you accept?
Dec 5 2012: "For most of us, a one-on-one conversation with god would convince us of her existence, but it would not provide empirical proof acceptable to others."
True. But you are aware that many are having this "one-on-one conversation" with deity, but are reticent to talk about it for fear of derision, and having their sanity called into question?Dec 6 2012: Hi Wilbert, many Christians are walking around talking to what they imagine as god all the time. They may also claim god talks to them.
Suggest you need more than that.
Its a good question on what would be sufficient evidence to prove the existence of any gods or goddesses. If they are smart I'm sure they could work it out, far better than relying on the usual methods of revelation and authority humans rely on.
If a quran appeared the size of the moon orbiting earth, that might be a start rather than a human going into a cave and coming out out with paper and ink or golden tablets no one sees and translation stones. Backed by religious mind state experience. So human. So mundane.Dec 3 2012: "Prove" is empirical, it demands evidence, so the challenge here is to provide empirical evidence for the claim that a god/supernatural deity exists. There is no mention in the question of the extent of restrictions to our ability to sense or understand anything beyond providing evidence….
Dec 5 2012: "the challenge here is to provide empirical evidence for the claim that a god/supernatural deity exists."
Are not your life and your mind sufficient "empirical evidence" to tip the scales in favor of a "god/supernatural deity"?
Science is as perplexed about the source of both (mind and life), not unlike its perplexity around God, the mystery of which is only rivaled by Life and Mind.


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This beautiful custom made birth announcement piece comes framed and matted in this 11 x 14" white wood frame. This is an ideal keepsake for a child of any age. The design consists of 16 different pieces of fabric sewn in place and then embroidered to create this masterpiece.
Please try and include as many of the personalzation fields as possible. If a field is not filled in, that spot will be left blank on the birth announcement.


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Since 1500, over 190 species of birds have become extinct, and this rate of extinction seems to be increasing. The situation is exemplified by Hawaii, where 30% of all known recently extinct bird taxa originally lived. Other areas, such as Guam, have also been hard hit; Guam has lost over 60% of its native bird taxa in the last 30 years, many of them due to the introduced Brown Tree Snake.
There are today about 10,000 species of birds, with roughly 1200 considered to be under threat of extinction. Except for a dozen or so species the threat is man-made.
Island species in general, and flightless island species in particular are most at risk. The disproportionate number of rails in the list reflects the tendency of that family to lose the ability to fly when geographically isolated. Even more rails became extinct before they could be described by scientists; these taxa are listed in Later Quaternary Prehistoric Birds.
The extinction dates given below are usually approximations of the actual date of extinction. In some cases, more exact dates are given as it is sometimes possible to pinpoint the date of extinction to a specific year or even day (the San Benedicto Rock Wren is possibly the most extreme example—its extinction could be timed with an accuracy of maybe half an hour). Extinction dates in the literature are usually the dates of the last verified record (credible observation or specimen taken); in many Pacific birds which became extinct shortly after European contact, however, this leaves an uncertainty period of over a century because the islands on which they used to occur were only rarely visited by scientists.
The Ostrich and related ratites.
Quails and relatives.
Shorebirds, gulls and auks.
Typical owls and barn-owls.
Acanthisittidae New Zealand "wrens"
Formicariidae antpittas and antthrushes
Meliphagidae honeyeaters and Australian chats
Acanthizidae scrubwrens, thornbills, and gerygones
Pachycephalidae whistlers, shrike-thrushes, pitohuis and allies
Dicruridae monarch flycatchers and allies
Corvidae crows, ravens, magpies and jays
Vangidae vangas
†Turnagridae piopios
Callaeidae New Zealand wattlebirds
Hirundinidae swallows and martins
Megaluridae megalurid warblers or grass warblers
Cisticolidae cisticolas and allies
Zosteropidae white-eyes. Probably belong into Timaliidae.
Timaliidae Old World babblers
Acrocephalidae Marsh- and tree-warblers
Turdidae thrushes and allies
Sturnidae starlings
Mimidae mockingbirds and thrashers
Estrildidae estrildid finches (waxbills, munias, etc)
Icteridae grackles
Parulidae New World warblers
Ploceidae Weavers
Fringillidae true finches and Hawaiian honeycreepers
Pittidae Pittas
Tyrannidae Tyrant flycatchers
Furnariidae Ovenbirds
Formicariidae Antpittas and antthrushes
Pardalotidae Pardalotes, scrubwrens, thornbills, and gerygones
Cinclosomatidae Whipbirds and allies
Dicruridae Monarch flycatchers and allies
Campephagidae Cuckoo-shrikes and trillers
Oriolidae Orioles and Figbird
Corvidae Crows, ravens, magpies and jays
Callaeidae New Zealand wattlebirds
Regulidae Kinglets
Hirundinidae Swallows and martins
Phylloscopidae phylloscopid warbers or leaf-warblers
Cettiidae cettiid warblers or typical bush-warblers
Acrocephalidae acrocephalid warblers or marsh- and tree warblers
Pycnonotidae Bulbuls
Cisticolidae Cisticolas and allies
Sylviidae sylviid ("true") warblers and parrotbills
Zosteropidae White-eyes. Probably belong into Timaliidae
Timaliidae Old World babblers
Troglodytidae Wrens
Paridae Tits, chickadees and titmice
Cinclidae Dippers
Muscicapidae Old World Flycatchers and chats
Turdidae Thrushes and allies
Mimidae Mockingbirds and thrashers
Estrildidae Estrildid finches (waxbills, munias, etc)
Ploceidae Weavers
Fringillidae True finches and Hawaiian honeycreepers
Icteridae Grackles
Thraupidae Tanagers
Emberizidae Buntings and American sparrows
List adapted, expanded and updated from that in Extinct Birds, Fuller, ISBN 0-19-850837-9 (Extinct Birds is an absorbing study of the world's recently extinct bird species, the first complete survey since Walter Rothschild's classic work of 1907)


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Red Devil
The Red Devil is an excellent wrap for beginners to intermediate offering a good balance of power and coverage! The Red Devil is softer and more stretchy for greater comfort without losing power. Made in the USA with the strictest of standards.
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text:
The following is an archive of a post made to our
'vox mailing list'
by one of its subscribers.
On the 26th day of May, Ryan Castellucci said to me:
> Home Depot had some cheap Belkin UPSs a month or two ago,
A word of warning, cheap doesn't just refer to price in this case.
. johnmc@ | bucketchild.net - +1-916-683-2276 (home) .
. http:// | johnmc.org - +1-408-386-3549 (cell) .
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and serving the Sacramento area.
"Linux" is a trademark of Linus Torvalds.


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Sony to hold E3 2013 press conference June 10th
by John Callaham
Earlier this week, Microsoft announced it would hold its pre-E3 2013 press event on June 10th in Los Angeles, Today, it was confirmed that Sony would also be holding its own E3 2013 press event on that same day, several hours after Microsoft's media gathering, where it will likely reveal more about the next Xbox console.
The report comes from GameSpot, but does not name the venue that Sony will be using for its E3 press conference. Microsoft will hold its event first on June 10th at 9:30 am Pacific Time at the Galen Center, while Electronic Arts will hold its own event at 1:00 pm Pacific Time at the Shrine Auditorium.
Ubisoft comes next in the E3 2013 press conference train, holding its event at 3:00 pm Pacific Time in an undisclosed location. Sony's event, which will likely focus on the Playstation 4 game console, will be last at 6:00 pm Pacific Time.
As we reported earlier, Nintendo has decided not to hold a big E3 2013 keynote event this year, due to the fact that it has no new hardware announcements to make. Instead it will hold a smaller event for journalists at the Los Angeles Convention Center along with another small event for international business representatives.
Source: GameSpot


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Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:15
Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:21
Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:23
Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:24
Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:27
Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:37
The low signal area was inside a Tesco Extra (huge Walmart like supermart for you Americans out there) and my iPhone doesn't appear to experience low signal or excessive battery drain there - perhaps I should have mentioned signal strength instead xP
I've never had this experience since I've started using Android, which was back in the 2.1 days. Now with Android 4.1, Google introduced many enhancements including Project Butter, which makes the UI run buttery smooth. UI responsiveness is great during heavy usage, I don't close out of any of my recently used apps (Android has good memory management, despite what people think). I'm not in low battery areas, but it doesn't drain very fast - this is something not specific to Android. If this is the case for you, I'd consider moving to a different provider. General battery life for me has improved - but that's because the Droid Incredible was known for its poor battery life.
Could very well be, at the time I assumed it was normal. I hope it's not due to the ROM, I think Sony's Xperia line is the best looking of them all, and the fact that they have always been behind the curve on hardware and software has been a deciding factor in jumping ship to iOS.
I had an EVO for 3 years that never slowed to a crawl, even running stock Sense. I rooted it and put Cyanogenmod on it as well without issue. Now I have a Nexus 4, and it has been great.
I think the issues you have had are probably due to Sony's proprietary rom, or faulty hardware.
I hope so, 2 years is the contract term here and it would suck to buy one only to find these issues still happened for me xD
Ive been using Android for a few years now. I noticed on my HTC Desire that sometimes it would slow down however my HTC One X does not have that problem at all. I think the latest Android devices have got past that now.
That's something I hadn't considered... The iPhone 4 also has 512 MB RAM however, is the memory footprint of iOS 6 that much less than the footprint of ICS with Sony's custom stuff in it?
Those phones you use had less than 400MB of usable RAM, that is obviously not enough for the Android system itself considering that the average user would also have installed Apps which take up additional resources, causing the Android memory manager to constantly clear up background processes making the device slower with time. Modern devices with Jelly Bean don't suffer from such problem. As far you an Android smartphone has 1GB of RAM or more it should perform smoothly.
Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:55
Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:55
Try disabling the Currents app. That has helped many after the 4.2.1 update
Only issues I've had is semi-known issue with the original launch Nexus 7 - 8gb model.
As soon as the storage free space goes below 1gb, it starts having issues (lag, unresponsiveness at times).
This is even after updating all the way to 4.2.1
Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:59


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To further enhance credit card data security, the credit card details are masked in the PNR / reservation record and are not accessible to the contact centre staff.
Booking and payment through IVR can be made up to 2 hours prior to flight departure for domestic and up to 4 hours prior to flight departure for International. Multiple passengers, multiple sectors and multiple passenger types can be booked in a single PNR. The service is available for all eTicket eligible sectors.
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Please contact our Contact Centre on 39893333*. However, in certain conditions where you may have to make additional payments or avail partial refunds you may have to visit our ticketing counter.
All security regulations and terms & conditions currently applicable for eTickets, apply for IVR ticketing.
© Jet Airways (India) Ltd.


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Everyone needs a January Quilt.
Or a February quilt, since there's only 11 days left of January.
It also helps when there is a very bright Heather Bailey Pop Garden print on the back, and if the weather is sunny and warm enough to be outside without a coat.
I've had lots of questions about this one, (I'm a bad reply-er unless questions are sent to my email or your email is attached with your comments…sorry!) I started by cutting 6" squares and used this method to make them into the 5 1/2" finished blocks. There are 168 blocks, 12 across & 14 down, making it 60" x 70". The fabrics are a little bit of everything, they're from all different lines & some I don't even know, but if you have a question about a specific one shoot me an email and I'll try to figure it out for you!


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Stores »
The perfect gift for a postnuclear boy. 40$
We are a community of shoppers sharing our best finds from across the web.
© 2015 ThisNext, Inc. ThisNext is a member of BUZZMEDIA Entertainment, a division of BUZZMEDIA.
Create your own free digital magazine at our new site Glossi.com


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Silken Flame® Barbie® Doll
This vintage reproduction is actually a combination of two separate outfits — Silken Flame® from 1960, and a red velvety coat called Red Flare, which was originally introduced in 1961. Together, these two outfits, along with a charming brunette bubble-cut Barbie® doll and vintage face paint, make for a stunning addition to this collection of porcelain reproductions. Add long white gloves and faux pearl necklace and earrings, and the ensemble is complete!
Production doll may vary from the photo shown above. Mattel reserves the right to modify the fashion/fabrics, sculpt, hair color/style, and accessories. Doll cannot stand alone as shown.


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Dear Customer , The LEGO Group prides itself in delivering high quality products and regrets to inform customers of an issue related to the LEGO® MINDSTORMS® Education EV3rechargeable battery . LEGO Education has identified a circuit error in the LEGO MINDSTORMS Education EV3 rechargeable battery . The error does not in any way relate to, or impact the EV3 programmable brick or the charger/transformer. The majority of the batteries that have been distributed do not have this error, but every battery in stock is now being retested to ensure it charges properly before shipping to customers, and new supplies are being sourced.
So in short, the issue is with the pack, not the brick. So for now, just use AA batteries until you can have the pack replaced (read the full letter how-to). Thank you Xander for posting this.


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[Level 7: Sentinel]
After that, the internet ball is in Australia's court.
Sorry Japan.
Such a cute PSA
^ that's amazing
And wow, does that video link to some weird stuff O_o
And I bet none of you noticed the Hot dog shirt.
Omg I did not noticed it, now that you said, I can't see how the hell did I not see them
That guys crooked face chin shot needs to be a badge lol.
For table.
And this is why "art" is bullshit.


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Manager: Cat Zingano could be ready for Ronda Rousey UFC title fight by June 2014
But, according to her manager, Ed Soares, "Alpha" is doing her best to deal with all of her recent issues and rehab from her knee surgery to resume her career inside the Octagon.
And it could be as early as June of this year, according to Soares (via USA Today):
"She texted me last night right after the (Rousey vs. McMann) fight. Cat watched the fight, and she's focused, she's motivated, her recovery is going well, and physically, she's getting back. She's had a rocky road since her surgery, especially with all the personal stuff that's happened to her. But Cat is one of those people who can take the negative energy and use it as a motivator to go get that belt."


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The Bethany College Department of Music has been accredited by the National Association of Schools of Music (NASM) since 1935. Music has played a central role in the life of Bethany College since its foundation in 1881. Many world renowned artists have traveled to Lindsborg to perform and teach.
Bethany Oratorio Society boasts one of the longest running annual performances of Handel's Messiah in North America, presenting it at least once annually since 1882, and has been featured on CBS Sunday Morning, National Public Radio, and PBS. This rich tradition of musical excellence remains strong and vibrant to this very day.
At Bethany College, music is for everyone, and students majoring in the sciences and humanities regularly benefit from the wide array of musical ensembles available, just as Bethany music majors benefit from pursuing their specialized studies within the context of a liberal arts environment.
Bethany music students study with many different career goals in mind. They gain the knowledge and experience to carry them successfully through graduate study and/or careers.


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A stunning motivational poster for your wall! Featuring the wise words of one of America's most inspirational leaders, and breathtaking photography that places you in a forest of tall trees on a crystal-clear stargazing night, this is both a beautiful work of poster art, and a constant reminder that big dreams must be combined with hard work to become real achievements.
Product Specifications:


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In order to manage your disease, you will have to make some permanent changes in your lifestyle. The following strategies can help you stay away from alcohol and reduce your risk of relapse:
- Socialize without alcohol.
- Avoid going to bars.
- Do not keep alcohol in your home.
- Avoid situations and people that encourage drinking.
- Make new, nondrinking friends.
- Do fun things that do not involve alcohol.
- Avoid reaching for a drink when stressed or upset.
- Continue attending support groups, such as Alcoholics Anonymous.
- Identify your potential relapse triggers and develop coping strategies for difficult situations.
- If you have a relapse, don't get discouraged—get help.
- Learn stress reduction techniques, such as deep breathing, meditation, yoga, regular exercise, rest, and relaxation.
- Eat a healthful diet.
Revision Information
- Reviewer: Peter J. Lucas, MD
- Review Date: 02/2014 -
- Update Date: 03/01/2013 -


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How to soften the blow of redundancy
The redundancy axe took a fresh swing last week when Barclays announced 1,800 job cuts in its corporate and investment bank in spite of soaring fourth-quarter revenues. It was just the latest to sever heads.
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