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What if you could add a single training element to your routine once every seven to 14 days that has proven to significantly increase your potential for faster racing times at any distance? What if it took as little as 10 to 15 minutes each session to see results? Sound too good to be true? Such a training method does exist and has been providing impressive results for decades.
Unfortunately, this type of training is widely misunderstood and, consequently, is shunned by many. Although this training method is most closely linked to the training that a miler would do frequently, most of the best long-distance runners since the 1960s have used this type of training consistently with incredible success.
What is this magic elixir for improved race times? Short intervals. Specifically, high-quality runs of 200 to 400m, repeated a fair number of times at a pace faster than your current 5K race pace.
Wait a minute – isn't this speed work? Yes, that's what some call it, but the main reason distance runners looking to improve should consider adding it consistently to their routine has a more specific purpose that has little to do with improved leg speed (although that's a nice byproduct). Short, high-quality intervals significantly improve the heart's ability to move blood throughout the body, resulting in greater potential for improvement, and that's the main reason you should do them, regardless of your target race distance.
A Miler's Menu
"Miler training" involves doing shorter repeats of 200 to 400m (lasting approximately 30 to 90 seconds) repeatedly with a recovery jog of half to all of the repeat. The pace is your current 1500m/3K race pace (15 to 40 seconds per mile faster than 5K race pace). So while these repeats are fast, they are not all-out sprints. That is, they should feel quick but controlled, not hands-on-the-knees hard. As we'll see later, the main workouts of this sort equal 1 to 3 miles total volume of faster running, depending on the speed.
There are three primary physiological benefits from doing these types of workouts consistently; the last is the most significant for most runners.
01. Increased ability to tolerate higher levels of lactic acid through increased buffering capacity.
02. Improved speed, form and running efficiency through improved functional leg strength and improved neuromuscular recruitment.
03. Increased cardiac output through an increase in stroke volume.
The third benefit, an increased cardiac output, is the adaptation every distance runner should take particular interest in since it has a significant impact on improving performance regardless of race distance.
What's The Deal With Cardiac Output?
Oxygen is the primary source of energy for any endurance event. At the most basic level, the greater the amount of oxygen available in the blood stream, the greater the potential for improved distance running performances.
Cardiac output is the volume of blood that can be pumped by the heart. If you can pump a greater volume of blood through your blood system for a set period of time, the effect is to increase the amount of oxygen that is made available at any one time to working muscles, thus increasing the potential for improved performances.
Remember this formula: Cardiac output = max heart rate x stroke volume.
That being the case, cardiac output can be increased in one of two ways: Increase the number of beats per minute of the heart, or increase the amount of blood pumped with each beat of the heart. The number of beats per minute is referred to as the maximum heart rate of an athlete. Unfortunately, this factor is limited by heredity and can't be influenced through training.
The amount of blood pumped with each beat of the heart is referred to as stroke volume. Fortunately, stroke volume can be greatly improved through proper training. The result of increasing stroke volume is to increase the amount of oxygen that is made available to working muscle, which corresponds to a potential increase in work capacity. The primary training adaptation that increases VO2 max and ultimately leads to faster race times is through training that leads to an enlargement of the left ventricle of the heart, as well as an improvement in the ability of the heart to contract. So, increasing stroke volume equals improved running performance.
Have you ever wondered why, as your fitness improves, your resting heart rate lowers? It's because, as you gain fitness, the strength of your heart improves and your left ventricle is able to pump a greater volume of blood with each beat. As a result, less beats are needed to keep you going during normal activity.
The idea of how to accomplish this feat is far from new. In the 1930s, exercise physiologists Herbert Reindell and Woldemar Gerschler discovered that shorter, somewhat intense bouts of fast running, followed by a recovery period repeated several times in the same training session, resulted over time in an increase in stroke volume and thus, the cardiac output of the athlete. The training method Reindell and Gerschler invented was termed "interval" training because of the recovery "interval" taken following a short, fast bout of running. This form of training led, in large part, to the monumental improvements in distance running performances starting in the 1940s and continuing through the present day.
Train Like a Miler, Race Like a Pro
Short, fast reps will help you race better at any distance
What if you could add a single training element to your routine once every seven to 14 days that has proven to significantly increase your potential for faster racing times at any distance? What if it took as little as 10 to 15 minutes each session to see results? Sound too good to be true? Such a training method does exist and has been providing impressive results for decades.


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2beachcombers wrote:
I have just rebalanced and have moved VSS to my Deferred Roth. 3 reasons motivated this move(reduce current taxes-25% marginal tax bracket; Bernstein recommendation from Manifesto; and carryover cap gains to cover VSS cap gains).
Replaced VSS $$ in taxable with additional VWO and FSIVX to maintain foreign tax credit.
livesoft wrote:FSTVX--99%
It appears that you have listed the percentage of qualified dividends for these funds and not the ratio of qualifed:non-qualified dividends. That's confusing because you are writing about non-qualified dividends. Can you please clarfiy?
Yes, you are correct. I did the ratio of qualified to total dividends as my objective is to max the qualified dividens. Will amend original to clarify. Non qual dividens would be 1- above ratio.
I was surprised of the amount of dividends I had this year in taxable accounts (which have not changed significantly in terms of holdings or number of shares). From my tax returns, dividends in 2012 were about 8% higher than 2011. In 2011, 74% of dividends were qualified for my taxable account which consists mostly of small-cap value (VBR), small-cap int'l (VSS), large-cap int'l (VEU), and a bit of large-cap index (VLCAX). I don't have 1099DIV yet for 2012, so I can't say if 2012 will have a different percentage, but I doubt it will be much different.
TNG wrote:2beachcombers wrote:
I have just rebalanced and have moved VSS to my Deferred Roth. 3 reasons motivated this move(reduce current taxes-25% marginal tax bracket; Bernstein recommendation from Manifesto; and carryover cap gains to cover VSS cap gains).
Replaced VSS $$ in taxable with additional VWO and FSIVX to maintain foreign tax credit.
First, I'm not sure what a "deferred roth" is, so that may affect the analysis.
Of course a Roth is tax deferred so no annual tax impact to the dividends. I got A's in physics barely managed C's in englush.
As to your question, assuming 1) VSS continues to yield more than VWO AND 2) the ratio of qualified/total dividend remains same or constant, you've positioned yourself appropriately.
Thanks for you input. My education continuues
Currently my VSS is yielding 2.5X VWO in non-quals, so Korea will have to make one heck of a difference. Good point, will monitor each quarter.
And Grasshopper--thanks for the Korea thread; fits well with this discussion.
But given the VWO index transition, I think it's likely that #2 moves unfavorably. According to the link below (undated, so maybe I'm using stale info), South Korea is among the countries with which we have a tax treaty allowing for qualified dividends. Since FTSE index will have proportionately more in all other countries, it is certain that VWO's qualified dividend% cannot improve since South Korea's 15% will be spread among a handful of other countries, some of which likely will not have qualified dividends. Of course the US may negotiate tax treaties with those countries, but that's beyond this analysis.
So in sum, it's likely to be a toss-up going forward. To improve tax efficiency you may be better off transitioning any new money into the Vanguard equivalents of your other holdings (compare your Spartan funds to Vanguard's via M*'s tax tool--you might be surprised how much a difference the shared ETF/Mutual Fund platform makes, especially between the Extended Market funds. Hint: more than makes up for the cost difference between FSEVX over VEXAX)
Will educate myself on your recommendation. My motivation to stay with the spartan funds as 95% of the dividends are at the end of the year and many years I simply sell and repurchase around the EX-dividend date. (have beacoup loss carryovers). Will take a closer look at the extended market fund tax efficiencies.
livesoft wrote:Quick comment: I would not use a reported "tax cost ratio" from any place on line to make decisions. I think one has to do the calculations from the dividends themselves.
livesoft wrote:I thought you just calculate the taxes YOU would pay on each of those invesments based on their dividends, qualified and non-qualified. You use your tax rates and look up the historical dividends.
2beachcombers wrote:
Does this mean IJS is less expensive?
TNG wrote:2beachcombers wrote:
Does this mean IJS is less expensive?
Your math appears correct, though as Livesoft says, don't get too invested in M*'s numbers.
Livesoft has always steared me straight--this last tax comparison was actually from FIDO and I will have them explain.
The important thing with thinking about taxes is "all else equal." As in, both FSEVX and VEXAX are extended market index funds, so they are approximately identical except for fund family-related management differences (yeah, technically they track different indexes, but that's small beans). Where all else is not equal, then you're letting taxes dictate when maybe other factors (allocation, placement, etc) are far more important. So as to your question of ishares vs vbr, you're not comparing exactly apples to apples in the same way as FSEVX to VEXAX, so I am agnostic.
The point I intended to make with the comparison between the Spartan and VG equivalents via M*'s tax analysis could also be proven by looking at the each fund's distribution history. VEXAX hasn't had a capital gain distribution in at least 3 years. FSEVX, on the other hand, distributed about 3% capital gains in 2012 and about 2.2% in 2011--that's on top of the 1.8% dividend in 2012 and 1.2% in 2011.
So regardless of the exact numbers M* gives for tax cost ratio, it's common sense that the fund that distributed 3% capital gains plus 1.8% dividend will cost more in taxes than the one which only distributes 1.8% dividend. Will this persist? Who knows, but I'm guessing one reason for the difference in distributions between otherwise nearly-identical funds is that VEXAX dumps a lot of its highly-appreciated shares via in-kind redemption of etfs. VG's fund thus is likely to continue to be more tax efficient than Fidelity's. This is why I suggested you might consider redirecting new money into the VG product--that way you incur no additional tax burden from selling (although you have some large loss-carryforwards) and new money becomes more (likely) tax-efficient. Adding in new funds complicates things beyond my ken.
TNG wrote:Upon some reflection, if you're talking about $120K worth of FSEVX, the 2012 tax impact of a 3% capital gain distribution is about $540 (assuming all long-term gains and 15% rate). If you have $250K worth of loss carry forward, then $540 is a rounding error and would seem to not be worth your time switching if your sole motivation is tax efficiency.
As between IJR and VB, you could flip a coin. IJR's supposed strength is its fidelity to small cap style. VB (under the old benchmark) has had a much deeper roster, so spilled more into mid-cap. Will small cap beat mid cap? Your intention to tilt to small suggests you've drawn a conclusion. My take: it doesn't really matter--maybe the tiebreaker is that if you're with Fidelity then you can trade IJR commission free.
2beachcombers wrote:livesoft wrote:Quick comment: I would not use a reported "tax cost ratio" from any place on line to make decisions. I think one has to do the calculations from the dividends themselves.
please educate me--could not find a good definition or how to calculate the tax ratio. I just compared several funds on FIDO web?
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subset: commoncrawl


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iContact's 2011 Kickoff Meeting – The Music Video
It's 2011… And a new year brings with it, a new corporate theme. This year, our theme is to "Architect for Tomorrow." It's a metaphor, of course. We're drawing up the blueprints for success and building the best possible infrastructure for iContact. Which means… we're building the best possible email marketing solution for our customers.


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Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
phone: +49 (0) 341 3550 - 300
fax: +49 (0) 341 3550 - 333
e-mail: cissewski@[>>> Please remove the brackets! <<<]eva.mpg.de
Leonardo Lancia
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
04103 Leipzig
tel.: +49 (341) 3550 - 342
e-mail: leonardo_lancia@[>>> Please remove the brackets! <<<]eva.mpg.de
office: U0.13
I consider variability in speech perception and production to be due to the flexibility and to the complexity of the speech processing system. In a dynamic systems approach, flexible behavior can be the result of interactions between simple deterministic dynamic laws. This assumption comes with a commitment to an integrated approach to studying the different factors that affect speech processing. I therefore tend to study those phenomena that can be explained by the interactions between various linguistic and nonlinguistic factors (e.g. pysiological and cognitive factors).
To cope with the complexity underlying the data observed, I adopt a modeling approach in which factors of different natures can often be conceived of as constraints whose effects on linguistic behavior can be represented by systems that are either static, or dynamic with a probabilistic component.
An important aspect of this modeling approach is that the behavior of the theoretical models is so flexible that it becomes hard to test predictions that rely on classical analysis methods based on a static conception of speech processing. Part of my work is devoted to developing analytical tools designed to model the time-variant behavior of the multiple parameters that describe speech signals as a physical object. To this end I usually adopt tools developed within the frameworks of functional data analysis and nonlinear dynamics, but then adapt them specifically for analyzing speech signals.
Research Interests
- Articulatory and acoustic phonetics
- Speech and voice quality perception
- Models of cognitive processing
- Signal analysis and comparison methods


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FineArtStudioOnline, of course.
"Your software is amazing! Thank you. I just put a new painting onto my web site and it was so easy. You have made the job a piece of cake. Good job."
---------------------------------------------- This article appears courtesy of InformedCollector.com by Clint Watson, a free email newsletter about art, marketing, inspiration and fine living for artists, collectors and galleries (and anyone else who loves art) .
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Because we got him into it.
The one, the only CW Black
Code:47.3 W Coppinger to Heads Smacked the ball straight into the groin of Iwuajoku who has fallen over, miraculously with the ball still caught in his scrotal area! Out!
Appreciating cricket's greatest legend ever - HD Bird...............Funniest post (intentionally) ever.....Runner-up.....Third.....Fourthcricket player"; "Bob"), 1/11/1990-15/4/2006
(Accidental) founder of Twenty20 Is Boring Society. Click and post to sign-up.
Certainly not as a spectator sport.
Member of the AAAS
Member of CW Green | Stedingham Jets Grade Cricket Team | Northside Power
Manager of South Australia (WCC)
Winner of AFL Tipping 2006 | Winner of Wimbeldon Prediction 2006
"What is this what is this who is this guy shouting what is this going on in here?" - CP. (re: psxpro)
R.I.P Craigos, you were a champion bloke. One of the best
R.I.P Fardin 'Bob' Qayyumi
Member of the Church of the Holy Glenn McGrath
"How about you do something contstructive in this forum for once and not fill the forum with ****. You offer nothing." - theegyptian.
-My beliefs summarized in words much more eloquent than I could come up with
How the Universe came from nothing
According to one of those 'Who do you look like?' things on Facebook where you upload a pic and then a website scans it for similarities...I bear a 56% similarity to Beyonce Knowles.
Phillip Hughes 1988-2014
RIP Craigos. A true CW legend. You will be missed.
I've never been able to manage to get pics on here, I'm a little technologically simple so:
Maybe that'll work
Last edited by Son Of Coco; 04-07-2007 at 08:25 AM.
Here we go...
As an added treat...you guys get to see some of my travel pics!
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Adult Classes & Programs
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Tired of walking alone? Looking for a new way to motivate yourself and others to get moving? Why not join us for a walk from the Bellwood Library through the community for about 45 minutes on Friday morning? After your walk, log your minutes and build camaraderie with fellow walkers. Walk more! Eat better! Live a longer, healthier life.
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|Contact Adult Services Department, (708)547-7393 and choose option 4


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I want to share my thoughts and feelings about my trip to Lithuania, where Greenpeace is helping local NGOs to be heard about the risks of nuclear energy ahead of Sunday's national referendum on whether or not the country needs a new nuclear power plant.
The Greenpeace airship urges the people of Lithuania to say "NO!" to nuclear power in Sunday's referendum (©Greenpace/Vidmantas Balkunas)
It is my first visit to the country. Given that the government has refused to allow Belarusian anti-nuclear activists into the country to campaign on the referendum, I was somewhat concerned about constant police control. I can´t tell if there is strong control or if it just isn't visible. The government's actions raise the question: is it really the people´s vote?I have not been surprised that the government is trying to manipulate the public on the questions of nuclear safety and finances. Especially now, with the referendum on the same day as parliamentary elections. The government's manipulative behaviour is so typical. Politicians push their nuclear agenda using all the misinformation on offer: this reactor will be safe, because it´s modern western technology, it will provide secure energy security, it will be cheaper than other sources, it will help with tackling climate change.It will be interesting to see what Lithuanians really think about nuclear power. What I´ve learned here is that the government has been doing its best to silence or make fun of all nuclear opposition. If the public says NO to this dangerous technology, it will be a victory not only for the future security of Lithuania but also for the whole continent. It will prove that people will not be misinformed forever.I´m keeping my fingers crossed that the referendum will provide a nice surprise. The outcome is very important especially for small countries in Central and Eastern Europe that think having nuclear will make them somewhat important on the world map. Even though Greenpeace doesn´t have an office in Lithuania, I´m glad we came here to tell the public that it´s okay to say NO to nuclear, because it´s not a safe and not a smart option for Lithuania.
Andrea Zlatňanská is an energy campaigner for Greenpeace CEE Slovakia
(Unregistered) Terra incognita
Great campaign, guys!
Some comments:
1) Pretty sure the control is low.
2) This question is very radical in Lithuania. There is no discussion - it's just "we have to build". All media, business magazines, web shouts say YES to nuclear plant.
Critics are usually called 'foreign agents' or just simply called fools, not patriots, etc.
3) By they way, current powerplant (which is closed/closing now) had to have 3rd reactor. But in 1988 protests started against it, there were about 150k people who surrounded powerplant and they succeeded - 3rd reactor construction was stopped.
But now I don't believe that they people will say no. To many well known people, journalists and many others activist are for powerplant. So it will be tough.
Also even the public will say no, this referendum is so called "advisory". This means that government has all the right not to respect the decision...
Interesting times. Hope for the best.
12 October, 2012 at 22:27
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(Unregistered) Serena
chernobyl and fukushima should be enough! say no to nuclear, guys! please! sign up also if you live in the other side of the world, this is dangerous ...
chernobyl and fukushima should be enough! say no to nuclear, guys! please! sign up also if you live in the other side of the world, this is dangerous for everyone!
13 October, 2012 at 10:49
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(Unregistered) Sofia
no nuclear!
13 October, 2012 at 10:55
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(Unregistered) PCAH
Thank you Greenpeace; helping Lithuania say no to nuclear will also help all our UK NGOs to say no to Hinkley C new nuclear plans by EDF who are using...
Thank you Greenpeace; helping Lithuania say no to nuclear will also help all our UK NGOs to say no to Hinkley C new nuclear plans by EDF who are using all the same public misinformation and bribery techniques you describe. Thank you again.
14 October, 2012 at 16:08
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(Unregistered) Austėja
Thank you for your help, Greenpeace! Luckily, more lithuanians have voted against nuclear power plant. On the other hand, this voting does not stop po...
Thank you for your help, Greenpeace! Luckily, more lithuanians have voted against nuclear power plant. On the other hand, this voting does not stop political parties from approving the project of NPP so now it is a matter of time when we will hear about the future plans. As a lithuanian myself, I have a bad feeling about this but still - I am hoping that our voice has been heard! Thank you again!
15 October, 2012 at 13:08
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Prep girls basketball: Arlington 50, Todd Beamer 42
Eagles freshman post Jayla Russ scored 15 points in the absence of Ronnie Ladines and Arlington withstood a late charge by Todd Beamer to win the 4A state regional game 50-42 at Puyallup H.S. on Friday night.
Arlington advances to next week's quarterfinals at the Tacoma Dome.
On a night when the Todd Beamer Titans desperately needed a clutch 3-pointer to help swing momentum or quickly cut a large deficit in a short time, they were without their best long-range weapon on the floor. Sharp-shooting freshman Quinessa Caylao-Do was sidelined with her arm in a sling.
"She's a big part of our offense and a big part of our defense," Beamer coach Cory Alexander said of Caylao-Do. "She's our spark plug."
Arlington (20-4) jumped out to an early lead but the Titans put on a late rally to make things interesting. Trailing 42-30 with 5 minutes, 40 seconds left, Beamer trimmed it to 44-41 with 1:13 left after Nia Alexander converted on 3-point play. But the Eagles didn't panic and hit their free throws in crunch time, going 4-of-4 from the line in the final minute.
At Puyallup H.S.
Arlington 13 11 13 13 -- 50
Todd Beamer 9 6 11 16 -- 42
Arlington--Taylor Graham 8, Lindsay Brown 6, Krista Showalter 6, Emma Janousek 1, Jessica Ludwig 0, Winter Brown 10, Jayla Russ 15, Lyndsay Leatherman 4, Marissa Swegle 0. Todd Beamer--Bria Rice 7, Carrie Lyn Ramos 3, Talia Culp 2, Nia Alexander 15, Megan Huff 15, Sophie Afework 0, Makayla Sullivan 0, Meranda Vaara 0. 3-point goals--xxx. Records--Arlington 20-4 overall. Todd Beamer 20-6.
Like our high school sports page on Facebook, follow @HeraldNetPreps on Twitter and look for updates on our Prep Zone blog.Story tags » • Arlington High School • High School Basketball
- Prep Zone: Who will win 4A Girls? (first round) 2/25/13
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Established in 2003, CITIZENS OF HUMANITY has charmed the fashion world with a rigorous commitment to cutting edge denim styling, supreme comfort and fit without compromise. CITIZENS OF HUMANITY designs, markets and produces over one million pairs of jeans annually in their own off site laundries. Each piece of CITIZENS OF HUMANITY is unique and handcrafted to perfection.
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These are really great jeans. The color is a deep blue (a little darker than the photo) that is professional for work, and the jeans are very classic-looking and comfortable. I love the rise- it's not so low that your crack will show when you bend over. And I love that these jeans do not have uncomfortable, hot, stiff polyester in them like so many designer jeans are now using. I'm 5'3" and 115 lbs. and the 26 fits me nicely.
I'm 5'4, size 26 in most jeans. I ordered size 26 and it fits nicely. The wash is somewhat a little darker than the picture. The length is a bit long still so no flip flop here. I put on a 2 inches heels and the length is great. The waist is a bit high compare to all other jeans I have. I guess it is good because this feature of the jean does a good job extending your leg. I'm a runner and my thighs are quite muscular, the dark wash give the illusion of a slimmer look. I'm keeping it :)
Color looks exactly like in the picture. Fit true to size. I wear a 26 in AG, Paige;25/26 in 7 Jeans, get these in 26. The material is relatively thin, but will be enough for fall and early winter. It's a true boot cut, not flare, which I like. They might have shrunk a little after wash, but very subtle. Overall these jeans are comfortable and they make your legs look good, I recommend them.
Okay this is going to be kind of a loooong review. I'm denim obsessed. Citizens of Humanity have re-designed their denim. Last year they replaced their Pacific wash with New Pacific. The New Pacific was darker, the material thinner and the sizing bigger. Overall they looked cheap. I've been wearing citizens since high school, I'm now married with children, and needless to say I was quite disappointed. I contacted Citizens of Humanity's corporate office and shared my concerns with them. Among other things, I suggested they go back to Pacific Blue. Now this is purely coincidental, but they did. I was extremely eager and excited to try the 'new' jeans. While the material had improved a bit, I found the jeans to stretch out way more than they should, they were still too thin. So what did I do? That's right I gave them a ring. A couple of months later (yesterday 2/18) I went to the mall and while looking in the petite section I decided to take a peek in the citizenâ??s rack. Immediately I noticed how the denim felt a little thicker, so I tried on a pair. Perfection! They are more fitted, do not stretch out and the color is great. The sales associate said that they had just gotten these last Wednesday. So try on a couple of pairs and shop around a little, before deciding on a pair. Again I think it's purely coincidental that Citizens made the improvements I suggested, but I'm sure glad I contacted them.
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Business Owners and Staff Perform Critical Tasks from Android and iOS Mobile Devices, Enabling Business Operations from Anywhere
Booker (formerly GramercyOne), a service management platform (SMP) that unifies operations and automated marketing on a single cloud-based system, continues to solidify its leadership position with the success of its iPhone, iPad, and Android mobile apps. By bringing the most robust suite of service management features to nearly any mobile device, Booker enables business owners and their staff to manage operations anytime, from anywhere, with features including appointment scheduling, payment processing, customer management, staff scheduling, and reporting.
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The Vodacom Blue Bulls have made six changes to the team for their Absa Currie Cup clash against the Lions this weekend.
The changes strengthen the Bulls tremendously and after escaping with a narrow two-point win over the Falcons they will be hoping this team can do a better job.
With the ongoing uncertainty surrounding the composition of the Springbok squad, Bulls coach Heyneke Meyer has dropped right wing Akona Ndungane. His place is taken by Trompie Nontshinga.
Four other changes and a positional switch were announced on Wednesday. Returning Springboks, Gary Botha and Pedrie Wannenburg will play hooker and No 8 respectively, while Marius Delport starts ahead of Sevens star Danwell Demas at left wing.
Baby Bok stars, Chiliboy Ralepelle and Pierre Spies have also not been included due to the doubt involved in whether they will be included in White's Tri-Nations squad.
Ndungane has also been withdrawn due to his impending selection for the Springboks, but it could prove a double blow if he misses out on that too as the Bok selection committee have hardly made up their minds yet.
Scrumhalf Heini Adams retains his place after suffering a rib injury against the Valke and although in some discomfort is expected to be fine by Saturday.
Frikkie Welsh – mentioned by keo.co.za as a possible Bok selection – was nevertheless included as captain for the second game running, but switches centre positions with JP Nel.
The only other change sees Warren Brosnihan get his first start for the Bulls this year in the No 6 jersey instead of Derick Kuun.
Blue Bulls team v Lions:
15 Stefan Basson
14 Trompie Nontshinga
13 JP Nel
12 Frikkie Welsh (captain)
11 Marius Delport
10 Morne Steyn
9 Heini Adams
8 Pedrie Wannenburg
7 Tim Dlulane
6 Warren Brosnihan
5 Francois van Schouwenburg
4 Adriaan Fondse
3 Rayno Gerber
2 Gary Botha
1 Wessel Roux
16 Kobus vd Walt
17 Jaco Engels
18 Cliffie Milton
19 Emile Verster
20 Neil Powell
21 Jacques-Louis Potgieter
22 John Mametsa
By Andrew Hollely


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Kitchen Gallery
Destiny: Dennison
The Dennison Door Style features miter construction, a veneer recessed center panel and a double-beaded inside edge detail that works well in a variety of design styles from Traditional to Contemporary.
A solid-wood slab drawer head comes standard with this door style, but for additional design interest, a 5-piece drawer front can be ordered as an option.
An eased outside edge softens the look of the door style and works well with the beaded inside edge detail.


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Perlane is an injectable cosmetic dermal filler used for severe wrinkles, facial folds (nasolabial folds), lip augmentation, facial depressions, and facial scarring.
Perlane is made from stabilized hyaluronic acid gel which easily adjusts and molds to the facial contours. The hyaluronic acid augments the body's natural supply, which becomes depleted with age.
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Prior to the Injection
For at least two weeks prior, patients are required to refrain from smoking, alcohol and aspirin products. Smoking interferes with circulation and healing, and products containing aspirin or ibuprofen thin the blood and increase the risk of bleeding and bruising.
After the Injection
Results are evident within a week and should last for about 6 to 8 months. There may be swelling which can last 2 to 3 days that can be alleviated with cold compresses.
Avoid touching the injected area for 6 hours following treatment.
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Perlane injections are safe and quick. However, as with all cosmetic procedures there are side effects and risks. The most common side effects include discomfort or pain at the injection site (which usually subsides within 24 to 36 hours), bruising, infection, and scarring.
Perlane quickly restores volume and fullness to the face.


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Snohomish clinches North crown with double-OT win
Genna Martin / The Herald
Lake Steven's Blake Sander (left) and Snohomish's Juan Machuca-Garin vie for the ball in the first half of their game Friday night at Lake Stevens High School.
Genna Martin / The Herald
Lake Steven's Blake Sander goes for a header in front of his team's goal in the first half of their game Friday night at Lake Stevens High School.
That was Snohomish boys soccer coach Dan Pingrey's message to his team before Friday night's pivotal Wesco 4A match at Lake Stevens on a clear spring night.
The Panthers might not have been expecting as much of a storm as the Vikings inflicted in the first 60 minutes, but they heeded their coach's advice. After getting knocked back, the Panthers created just enough of a storm of their own, capping the night with a 2-1 victory in two overtimes.
"They played with high pressure," Pingrey said of Lake Stevens' frenetic style for the evening. "They had to win."
The victory gave the Panthers (12-1 league, 14-1 overall) the Wesco 4A North crown and the coveted first-round bye into the district playoffs. The Vikings (9-3, 9-3-2), already having clinched at least second and a home match with the South's No. 3 team, had their sites set higher. Winning this and their final two games of the regular season would have given them the title.
The strategy was clear from the start as the Vikings were on the attack, often running with abandon toward the Panthers' net.
In the first half, Lake Stevens controlled the run of play, consistently putting pressure on the Panthers' goal, but goalkeeper Ryan Peters rebuffed every attempt that was on frame.
In the second half, the pressure increased, but Lake Stevens seemed to find every way not to score. One shot sailed over the crossbar. Once a forward fell down on a breakaway. Another forward held onto the ball one dribble too long. A header off a corner kick didn't quite have enough juice to get by the keeper.
Meanwhile the Panthers couldn't string together more than two passes to keep possession of the ball for any length of time.
Friday night, the Panthers were coming off their only loss of the season, which was a 3-0 drubbing at the hands of Mount Vernon and they also without two key starters -- Uriel Herrera (suspension) and Brennen Judy (broken collarbone suffered in practice).
"We had to adjust to the way they were playing," Pingrey said. "I was proud of the guys they made a lot of adjustments."
One thing that never left the Panthers' attack was sophomore Blake Crutchfield and his killer throw-in that has helped him lead the team in assists with nine this season. When Snohomish gets close to the opposing goal, every out of bounds is like a corner kick.
In the 58th minute Crutchfield heaved and Juan Machuca headed the ball inside the far post, but the score was waved off by the refereee. According to Pingrey the ref said no player touched the ball before it went in.
In the 61st minute, Machuca found himself wide on the goal line and threaded the ball past Vikings goalie Brennen Countryman to give Snohomish a 1-0 lead
Lake Stevens continued to push until the 75th minute when Michel Zavalza passed to Grant Shultz, who lifted a shot over Peters to level the score at 1-1.
The first overtime passed with no real scares and the second looked like it would as well until Machuca set up the Panther's leading goal scorer Tyler Mayer directly in front of the Vikings' goal. Mayer drove home the game-winner in the 89th minute.
Lake Stevens coach Kit Shanholtzer was proud of his team and their fight.
"It's wonderful seeing a whole bunch of guys working for each other," he said.
Pingrey couldn't emphasize enough how important Friday's game was after the loss, which he described as a mistake in preparation and confusion of the team's senior night which was played in the team's second-to-last home game for the first time.
"It's huge ? winning this is huge having that first-round bye," Pingrey said.
At Lake Stevens H.S.
Goals--Juan Machuca (S) Grant Schultz (L) Tyler Mayer (S) Assists--Machuca (S). Michel Zavalza (L). Goalkeepers--Snohomish: Ryan Peters. Lake Stevens: Brennen Countryman. Records--Snohomish 12-1-0 league, 14-1-0 overall. Lake Stevens 9-3-0, 9-3-2.
Like our high school sports page on Facebook, follow @HeraldNetPreps on Twitter and look for updates on our Prep Zone blog.Story tags » • Lake Stevens High School • Snohomish High School • High School Soccer
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Articles Tagged 'Education & Assistance Corp'
Locked Up
In early 2006, Melvin Daniels was a 20-year-old cocaine dealer for the Prospect Piru set of the Bloods in Westbury. The young man known as "Maniac" had seven years on the streets at that time, when an undercover narcotics detective with Nassau County police picked him up. After surviving what he describes as the "kill-or-be-killed" gang life, he began a three-and-a-half-year stay behind bars. He awaited trial in the relative comfort of Nassau County Jail surrounded by people from the community, then was convicted and sentenced to hard time in a medium-security upstate prison. Later, he was transferred to the maximum-security Elmira Correctional Facility after he slashed another inmate, a member of a rival gang, in the face and chest.


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America's Coolest College Start-ups 2012
1st RoundArizona Pro DJsA Small Orange LLCBetterBooBig Fish PresentationsEarTop TechnologiesG3BoxiCrackedInternational Pet SolutionsKip SolutionsMinistry of SupplyPulse MotorsSalute the BraveScanStoked SkateboardsTeens in Tech LabsThe Little Salad ShopTrueRSVP
Tomorrow's big business may be today's dorm room invention. From a personalized electric motor bike to pop-up medical clinics to the latest in QR code technology, the 2012 class of our annual college start-ups were founded on the mission to give back to the world's communities, be on the cutting-edge of innovation, and have fun while doing it.
Teague Egan, hailing from the University of Southern California, founded 1st Round in 2009 with Zack Johnson, Sterling Brewster and Riley Egan. Tailoring themselves as an entertainment company, 1st Round plans to become a game changer in sports, music and film—already bringing an artist to the coveted No. 1 spot on iTunes.
Will Curran launched Arizona Pro DJs out of a pure passion for music and entertaining. He started deejaying in 2007 when he was still in high school. Now the Arizona State University senior is the CEO and president of the 24-employee company, which caters to teen events and takes care of every aspect from the lights, to security, marketing, and—of course—the music. The business brought in $116,000 in 2011.
When Douglas Hanna, a junior at Duke University, isn't in class, he's hard at work as the CEO of A Small Orange LLC. The Web hosting business supports about half a million websites and has a strong focus on customer service. The company's business plan is to buy Web hosting companies that aren't reaching their full potential, improve them, grow them, and then either keep or sell the business.
University of Tampa senior Nick Chmura turned his personal quest to be a better gift-giver into a profitable business with BetterBoo, a web-based application that uses Facebook and Amazon to help users find and buy gifts. Launched in 2011, the start-up has gotten $40,000 in seed funding.
Kenny Nguyen founded Big Fish Presentations in 2011, inspired by the very thing his business works to prevent—a boring presentation. He started with less than a thousand dollars from a paycheck and his father. One year later the design firm, which tackles everything from putting a presentation together to presentation strategy workshops, has brought in $75,000 in revenue. Nguyen is a junior at Louisiana State University.
Deejaying since he was 12 years old, Ketan Rahangdale partnered up with tech-savvy Jaiyu Ni to launch EarTop Technologies in 2011, to bring wireless technologies into the daily lives of consumers. Creating wireless adapters and self-sustained wireless devices, EarTop strives to make wires obsolete and has projected 2012 revenue of $1.2 million.
Gabrielle Palermo, along with fellow Arizona State University students James Tyler, John Walters, and Susanna Young, are the co-founders of G3Box, a company that designs low-cost, modular, and mobile medical clinics made from recycled shipping containers. Launched about a year ago, the company's mission is to provide places for healthcare in rural areas both in the U.S and Africa.
After countless trips to the Apple store to repair his broken iPhone, AJ Forsythe decided to fix his phone himself, and subsequently launched iCracked, which has become one of the largest iPhone, iPod and iPad repair companies with over 120 locations worldwide. Founding the company in 2010 with Leslee Lambert and Anthony Martin, Forsythe has seen the iCracked grow into a large company with expected 2012 revenues of over $1 million.
Founded by Chapman University students Dylan Balsz and Tilden Smith in 2010, International Pet Solutions manufactures and sells original pet care products throughout the U.S. and South America. Their flagship product is PetLawn, an indoor outhouse for dogs. The company produces complementary products, including a pheromone used to help train dogs to use PetLawn.
In the social media craze, Patrick Ip, Sonia Chokshi and Kavya Shankar, saw more than a means to network and build on relationship. They saw an opportunity to make a social impact. Founded in 2011, Kip Solutions uses social media to further social causes throughout the world. With over 12 clients worldwide, Kip Solutions provides a platform for leaders to collaborate, increase their influence and gain new partners, ideas and investments.
Out to make the most comfortable business wear ever, Ministry of Supply blends technology and design to their business wear line. Founding Ministry of Supply in 2010, Kevin Rustagi, Gihan Amarasiriwardena, Eddie Obropta, Eric Khatchadourian, Kit Hickey and Aman Advanti set out to innovate the apparel industry by applying their MIT educations to clothing—revolutionizing dress shirts and undershirts.
Pulse Motors is a start-up launched in 2011 that designs and produces a two-wheeled electric vehicle called the Personal Electric Vehicle Zero, or PEV0 (pronounced pee-voh). The PEV0 is essentially an efficient electric motor bike. It can drive over 100 miles on just $0.25 of electricity (about 30 times more than a Toyota Prius). The bike also charges from any standard 110 volt outlet with its onboard charger, making it extremely convenient for the end-user.
Ryan Morris founded Salute the Brave in May 2011, determined to give back to the men and women fighting overseas—designing a clothing line purposed to do just that. For every Salute the Brave product sold, one is donated overseas to a U.S. military member in a care package as a morale booster for the troops. Currently a senior at the University of Southern California, Morris has seen $30,000 in revenue since its launch.
Scan, founded in 2011, utilizes and creates technologies like QR codes and NFC image recognition to connect individuals and businesses in the real world to the digital space. Since the release of the Scan app less than a year ago, by Brigham Young University students Garrett Gee, Ben Turley, and Kirk Ouimet, it has received more than 10 million downloads in the App Store and Android Marketplace and is currently being used in more than 77 countries. The company received $1.7 million in seed funding in late February.
In 2007, David Rajewski launched Stoked Skateboards, an online retail store that specializes in high performance longboard skateboards. The site allows customers to customize the their skateboards, down to the precise color, design, and size they desire.
Daniel Brusilovsky founded Teens in Tech Labs in 2008 when he was only 15 years old. The business is focused on providing young entrepreneurs with education and support. The three-employee company accomplishes this through their conferences and incubators on the West Coast. The company also has a blog, social network (Teens in Tech Connect), and corporate sponsors like Microsoft. Brusilovsky is currently a sophomore at the College of San Mateo.
Situated in the heart of the Yale University campus in New Haven, Conn., The Little Salad Shop was founded by Jerry Choinski and Etkin Tekin last fall as healthy eating alternative for students and New Haven residents alike. The restaurant sells fresh, affordable salads and smoothies. They hope to open new Connecticut locations this year.
TrueRSVP keeps track of users' attendance at events over time: The company's algorithm interprets how many times the users RSVP to an event, versus how many times they actually attend. The company then establishes each user a "flake rating," which can gauge the likeliness of them showing up.


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Antique Floral Play Canopy
A little imagination goes a lot further when it's accompanied by our hanging canopy, which transforms any nook into an enchanted enclosure just perfect for play.
- Creates a kid-friendly oasis in an instant
- Portable canopy hangs from the ceiling (hardware not included)
- Sewn from one of our favorite drapery fabrics – antique floral cotton
- Ruched side panels that tie back, lending an extra feminine touch
- In lilac or petal
Shown in lilac.
Antique Floral Play Canopy
- 36" diam., 96"H


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Raiding is undergoing some pretty interesting changes in WotLK. The main points that I've seen are:
I must confess that when I first saw this, my immediate thought was, "Wow, that's going to create a lot of work for me." I maintain the Guild Progress thread on the Skywall forums, which lists the raiding guilds, their website, and what bosses they've killed, ordered roughly by how far each guild has gotten in endgame.
With two separate progressions, how would this thread be ordered? Should I have two lists, one for each raid size? Should guilds be classed as 25-man guilds or 10-man guilds, or listed in both lists? I expect the 25-man guilds to do the 10-man instances, and is it really worth cluttering up the list with the same Nexus-25 and Nexus-10 bosses?
Of course, these concerns are pretty trivial. In pretty much all other respects, these changes to raiding are an unambiguous win. Content creation is expensive, and I think that this will allow a lot more people to see the raid dungeons.
I think that 25-mans are pretty clearly pitched as the hardcore option, and probably will be tuned very tightly. The 10-mans will still be complex, but will definitely be tuned lower than the equivalent 25-man. Arthas-10 will be easier than Arthas-25. The loot structure is set up for that. Remember that for raiding, the quality of loot should depend on the difficulty of the encounter. Better loot equals higher difficulty.
Various other people are debating if 10-man encounters can be as epic as 25-man encounters. I'm not really sure I know that answer. Epic has a lot to do with lore and the archetypes of the adversaries, not just the complexity or difficulty of the fight. But really, the difference in "epicness" doesn't matter:
Is it better for Arthas to be an epic 25-man fight you never see, or for Arthas to be a less epic 10-man that you get to participate in?
I think Blizzard's plan strikes the best balance. As long as Arthas-10 is harder then the 10-man bosses that come before him, that there is an actual difficulty progression in 10-man raiding, I think everything will be fine.
The interesting questions will be how guilds react to the changed situation. Will the 25-man guilds do the 10-man raids? Will they recruit from the 10-man guilds? What will happen when someone burns out of 25-man raiding? Will they quit the game, or will they see 10-man raiding as a good alternative (huge wins for Blizzard if people take this path)? Will "softcore" guilds--who work on 25-mans at a slower pace--continue to exist, or will the only 25-man guilds be ones that raid 5 or more days in the week?
Exciting times ahead.
Thursday, May 15, 2008
WotLK 10/25-Man Raids
Raiding is undergoing some pretty interesting changes in WotLK. The main points that I've seen are:
37 comments:
- Rav said...
To keep the tally, I think you should up to keep 25-man and 10-man separated, not including 25-man in 10-man. It may depend on how the 10-man version will become unlocked. Currently, Blizz is considering locking 10-mans until the 25-man version is cleared, with the time release option later on.
The epicness of an encounter is very subjective. Matticus did an excellent survey about it.
One thing is sure: there will be something for everybody out there.
- 8:57 PM, May 15, 2008
- Anonymous said...
10-man raiding is primarily about the players. A good 10-man force is normally built around those folks in your guild who are highly self-motivated for advancement.
25-man raiding is primarily about the raid leader. If you wonder why your guild is just breaking in SSC/TK while other guilds are doing Muru, there's one guy who primarily responsible for this: the raid leader.
My suspicion is the that dual track nature of advancement will end up killing a fair number of guilds - the middle-of-the-road advancement guilds - because it's simply not worth putting up with a mediocre raid leader when you can get equivalent gear by burning through 10-mans.
Yes, you'll miss the very top end gear at the end of the progression. But you would have missed that gear anyway.
- 10:14 PM, May 15, 2008
- RJ said...
Rav -
I wonder where you heard that? The only information that I have seen so far is that they said the 10-man and the 25-man versions are different progression paths, which implies that both don't need to be unlocked. I'm pretty sure that their intent is so that a smaller 10-man raiding guild can just ignore all the 25-man ones and progress through the 10-mans.
It's also a little ridiculous to require a guild to unlock a version of the raid that gives inferior loot.
- 3:49 AM, May 16, 2008
- Indy said...
I'd read that somewhere too, that the ten mans would be unlocked after the 25 man was beaten, or after a set time. I don't recall WHERE I saw that... it might have been one of the many interviews, or it could have been third-party speculation on what Blizzard might do.
BTW, the unlocking was (I believe) to be serverwide; a guild doesn't unlock the ten man for itself, it's unlocked for everyone after a server first kill. (This avoids progression guilds training on the ten man version before killing the twenty-five man.)
- 6:48 AM, May 16, 2008
- Bende said...
Why wouldn't you want a progression guild to train on the 10-man version before moving onto the 25-man?
- 7:51 AM, May 16, 2008
- Wowgirl said...
I can't wait to change my priestess hair lol.
And i'm so curious about Naxxaramas!
- 7:59 AM, May 16, 2008
- Dazanna said...
This system will have two possible outcomes:
1. 25-mans increase in difficulty from entry level to very difficult (like now), 10-mans are all easy casual-pandering laugh-fests.
2. 25-mans and 10-mans increase in difficulty from entry level to very difficult.
Under the first system 25-mans would become largely dead content. Most people would rather run easy content than farm consumables and spend multiple nights wiping on bosses. There will still be some hardcore players who run 25-mans for challenges, but they would most likely be transferring servers (as recruitment on smaller/less hardcore servers would be a nightmare) to one of the big PvE servers (Korgath, Magtheridon EU, Mal'ganas, etc) to join established raiding guilds. This would further the already rampart problem of talent concentration, making smaller casual servers literal ghost towns where most players only log on for a couple hours a week to farm 10-man Arthas for "phat epix".
In the second situation you will have more of what is happening today. 25-man guilds will still be hard pressed to get new recruits for harder content and talent concentration will be widespread. Most 10-man guilds will come to the first large content block in 10-mans and stop, much like how the Dragonhawk boss stopped a lot of 10-mans guilds now. These guilds will sit in easy content farming it until the next expansion, whining that they still couldn't experience content.
If I come across as elitist... I am. I absolutely hate just how far Blizzard has taken their casual-pandering attitude that is weakening this game horribly.
- 9:30 AM, May 16, 2008
- kiryn said...
I used to raid SSC and TK, but started leading a raid into ZA twice a week. Since then, my guild has started running Hyjal and BT, and I find myself less interested. I'm considering just forgetting about 25-man content entirely and focusing on ZA, and maybe leading a KZ once a week for my alts.
I might not be part of the "hardcore" audience. I just don't like 25-mans as much because there's too much micromanagement. In a 10-man, I can lead all 9 other people by myself, but in a 25-man, you need to have class leaders, heal leads, tank leads, etc. I spent my time as healer lead for T5 content.
I'm really looking forward to WotLK now because of this news. It tells me that I'll have a chance to do the two things I really want to do: lead 10-man raids, and see end-game content. Win-win situation for me.
- 11:09 AM, May 16, 2008
- Rav said...
On the same interview (which I can't find now), they said that 10-mans will follow the same progression difficulty as 25-mans.
The unlocking procedure, if there is ever one, is still under debate.
@wowgirl: The hair changes is one of those useless updates that will improve the game greatly. :-)
@Dazanna: Don't worry, Blizzard has been catering hardcore raiders too.
1) Recruiting has gotten theoretically easier. Forcing attunements on all paths (like it was on BC before they were removed), meant that the only way the top raiding guilds could recruit was via poaching "lesser" guilds. Now they can also pick up players that have geared themselves via BoJ/10 mans and rerolls from their on guild.
2) Gear available via BoJs. If you visited the official forums pre-2.4, you would have seen several people QQing because they were still running Kara/whatever to get a drop that was hard to replace in T5/T6. With much variety available via BoJs/reputations, they aren't as pressured to continue in lower raids to get the best-in-slot.
In the end, the more open the game is for casuals, the more raiders have to win. Bigger recruitment pools, easier gearing up for people that arrived late, and current raiders more focused on progressing than staying stuck because they've been unlucky.
- 12:10 PM, May 16, 2008
- Dazanna said...
Yes rav, it is easier to gear someone up. But that doesn't make recruitment easier.
Riddle me this. If you can get gear that is ilevel 141 from 2 hours of work or gear that is ilevel 145 from 20 hours of work, which one are you going to pick? Which one will most people pick?
Why are Karazhan and PvP so popular? Because they take little effort (4 hours for kara or 20 minutes for a BG) and get very large rewards (ilevel 141 badge gear and 146 PvP rewards).
Guild recruitment is not based on finding people with gear, its based on finding people willing to put in the time and energy required for progression. Gear is almost never the issue: for example, we took in a brand new shaman 2 weeks ago with all kara gear. He's already running around in 3/8 Tier 6 with 1900 healing. Raiding guilds can and will gear people up if those people have the motivation to raid. The problem is finding those people in the first place.
By putting in small versions of every raid dungeon Blizzard is destroying all raid recruitment. People will have no reason whatsoever to run "heroic" naxx if they can do the easy version in less time with no consumables and get nearly equal gear. With no one wanting to apply to raid guilds to replace attrition you will see less and less 25-mans being run.
You can already see this trend with badge gear and PvP sapping the recruitment pools of raid guilds, and this is no different.
- 12:34 PM, May 16, 2008
- Rav said...
Personally? I'd try to get the best in slot. Like, I don't know, the Elemenatlist Bracelets of Shadow Wrath for Shadow Priests working on T4 all the way to T5, with the next clear upgrade on T6. Gee, Blizz should really nerf the AH then.
Gear is an issue when recruiting. It tells you a lot of the type of player that wants to join your guild. Maybe a player might be full Kara geared, but notice his enchantments and gemming selection. See a holy priest gemming for Agility? Not the kind of player a highly progressed guild would want. See a hunter with all his gear properly enchanted? He might be a good fit.
As for recruiting undergeared players, I've rarely find a guild willing to take an undergeared player and help them gear up. Perhaps your guild should be a role model for other guilds.
Also, if a player is mostly motivated to raid just to get purples, there are chances that they'll jump ship when the going gets tough. So your recruitment catch should not be "Come get purples".
Not everything will be gloom when WotLK hits, just as PvP/BoJs haven't purged raids of the players interested in raiding.
- 2:11 PM, May 16, 2008
- Kirk said...
Actually, this may solve a niggling question that's been hanging for a while.
Do people do 25 man raids because they want to, or because they have to?
Now I suspect we'll actually get a split comparable to the current raid vs arena arguing which is "tougher" as far as skills and such. Still, in general I think that in terms of individual effort Raid #4(10) is going to be harder than Raid #2(25). And so it'll resolve - at least in part - that question.
Not to mention the highly skilled players who cannot participate in 25 player teams due to out-of-WoW constraints or interests.
But I suspect Blizzard will be watching what happens not least to see if they REALLY need to do 25 man instances for their money.
- 2:21 PM, May 16, 2008
- Revaan said...
I think the 25-mans are supposed to be harder than their 10-man counterparts. Now, if this is "harder" means more than "the boss does more damage and has more hit points", 25-man raiding will not die out. One thing that applies to all raiding guilds is guild pride, and guilds that want to be taken seriously as a raiding guild might run the 10-mans for basic training on trash or some mechanics of the 25-man bosses, or even easy badges, but they'll be in the 25-man raids every week. They'll have to be in order to continue to be taken seriously.
10-manning Arthas appeals to the people that just want to see it before the post WotLK expansion but don't have the time to put into 25-man raiding, whereas the serious raiding guilds will 25-man him for honor and the full experience.
- 12:38 PM, May 17, 2008
- Grumpy Misanthrope said...
This whole large groups means epic thing has always confused me...Something is epic when it seemingly should be impossible to do. Killing a god is an epic task. However, 1 person killing a god is more epic than an army of 10000 killing a god. In fact, narative epics are generally centered on a single entity, not on large groups.
Now, as a practical matter, you can require more DPS from a 25 man than a 10 man, due to sheer numbers, and ridiculous tuning. But that doesn't make the fights worthy of "epic" nature. In the end, WoW will never really have an epic feel because they can never allow a single character to get so powerful as to strike down Arthas alone. But that's what it would take to really be epic.
- 2:33 PM, May 17, 2008
- Doeg said...
I, too, just have to laugh at the Blizzard concept of "more toons = tougher".
Is doubles tennis really more epic than singles?
Is 2-on-2 basketball really easier than 5-on-5?
Would American football be more epic if they made a 15-on-15 version, or 25-on-25, instead of the current 11-on-11?
And on a team there is often a single hero, a superstar, who is the face of a team and the key to the team's success.
And I agree with the previous poster that it's actually more epic when few, or one, HERO defeats a foe. After all, the game is about our alter-ego toon as a hero of Azeroth.
So it's entirely an arbitrary matter of tuning as to whether a 10-toon or 25-toon raid is "harder".
But Blizz has this one backwards.
- 5:49 AM, May 19, 2008
- Karl said...
regardless of 25-man-raider-epeening, 10-man raids may be what saves this game. The fact that there will be a progression for 10-man groups through the end of expansion means that core groups can develop, and STAY TOGETHER. People don't have to leave to see more content. This is one of the best things Blizz has ever done. I'm starting to look for a group now that will be capable to go through the 10-man progression.
25-man guilds may suffer, but that doesn't really concern me, they are "leet" enough, they'll survive, or not.
- 8:28 AM, May 19, 2008
- Anonymous said...
Blizzard is killing WoW at it will die with WoTLK. TBH, AoC is looking too good to pass up.
- 8:46 AM, May 19, 2008
- Dazanna said...
25-mans will always be harder and more complex than 10-mans for one simple reason.
Raid/group composition.
When Blizzard designs 25-mans they can assume a certain representation for each class; every raid will have at least one pally, at least two tanks, etc. For 10-mans they can not assume this, as with 10 classes in the game and 10 slots its not exactly fair to assume 1 (or more) of each class.
Thus, you see 25-man bosses with very complex abilities. For example, we'll take the Vashj fight. Every 15-20 seconds Vashj will cast Entangling Roots (just like the druid spell) on everyone in melee range, tank included. It is not dispellable. If your tank gets the rooted though Vashj will run to the far side of the room and start using Multi-shot to wipe the raid. How do you control it? Have Paladins keeping Blessing of Freedom on the tank so he/she can't get rooted.
In a 25-man this works well, it is assumed you'll have at least one or two paladins in a 25-man raid. How would this work for a 10-man? You can't always assume to have a paladin in a 10 man raid.
So you get two possible outcomes. The first is that Blizzard removes any kind of this specialization of roles from all encounters and everything because a kara level tank'n'spank. However, now all the fights are different than the 25-mans. Are you really seeing content or are you seeing the artwork of the dungeon with this kind of wholesale destruction of actual content?
The second outcome is that Blizzard really tightens the content for 10-mans. If they did put in boss abilities that require certain classes (just as with the 25-man) you would need raid stacking for both 10- and 25-man content, meaning you and your pals won't be seeing it. You'll farm Naxx-10 for the next 2 years, just like you're farming kara now. But that is the way real raid content is, you have to work at it with a determined and organized guild.
So ask yourself, do you want to see real content or do you just want to see the artwork? If you want to do the first you'll have to live with raid-stacking, wiping all night to learn encounters, farming consumables, recruiting people who aren't from your core group of friends, etc. If you just want the second go watch a movie of Nihilum and leave raiding alone.
- 10:18 AM, May 19, 2008
- Karl said...
I'd expect 25-mans to be harder and more complex. Especially more complex, and have better loot. Fine.
What I do hope is that the new 10-mans will allow for a small guild to progress through the content with minimal stacking. The only real stacking should be 3-different kinds of tanks, depending on the fight.
If the 10-mans require a 20-person team due to stacking, then it defeats the purpose. I'll stick with solo-casual then.
But 10-mans tuned so a core of 12-14 people can progress through content would open up a new aspect for the game.
- 10:57 AM, May 19, 2008
- Dazanna said...
But again Karl, if you're doing a simple tank'n'spank for every encounter are you really seeing content? If you can't have new and unique boss abilities because you can't have group stacking these encounters are going to get boring pretty quickly.
So again, I ask are you really seeing content? Is it even progress to do encounters with no difference other than the model the boss wears? By doing an ultra-watered down version of an instance are you really experiencing new and challenging content or just looking at pretty artwork?
My answer is no, which is why Blizzard will make 10-mans require stacking towards the later endgame. Anything less than that and they completely trivialize the work they put into it. You should not be able to walk up to Arths with 9 friends who play for 2 hours a week and one-shot him.
- 11:55 AM, May 19, 2008
- Suicidal Zebra said...
I recall 2 years back, when it was first announced that WoW was going to move from 40-man to 25-man raid designs, the elite raiders complaining that this was the end of the raid game because 25-man raids couldn't be complex enough to justify their elite status. Hell, 2.5 years ago ZG and AQ20 spelt the end of the high-end raids. Nice to see their worries so were well founded.
It's disappointing that raiders feel their style of gameplay is being marginalised and not catered for. It will be a shame to see an ever dwindling number of players not be forced into a multiple-day per week raiding schedule in order to have any sense of personal accomplishment beyond the numbers on their weapon.
If the 25-man raiding scene requires content bottlenecks in order to perpetuate, and by its very nature prevents many people from experiencing it and hence the majority of new content released in patches, does it really have any right to exist as the sole means of PvE progression in the game? It's worth saying that to everyone not involved in BT+ new dailies aren't content, shiny new Badge Purples aren't new content, and a new Arena Season isn't new content. Similarly, the existence of 5-mans hasn't marginalised Heroics and each serve their own, very defined, role in the game.
Wrath can't come soon enough, and if it heralds the death of 25-man raids because guilds can't convince players that 25-man is more fun than 10-man raiding (and they should put up with their shit in order to get into their raid) good riddance to them. The raiding scene should have to justify its place in the game beyond a snobbish sense of elitism, just as every other form of content does. If the encounters can't be tuned to be well varied (and I doubt this) then so be it, simple content created among similar lines beats one instance of exactly the same content every single time.
- 12:17 PM, May 19, 2008
- Karl said...
so, what you seem to be saying is that if I can only raid two nights a week, I shouldn't be playing, and that the game is really only for dedicated raiders?..
sorry, I don't have a consistent 20+ hours a week to raid. I have a wife, and job, and (gasp) a RL.
What I would hope is that the 10-mans are tuned that a core group can do it. It works for Kara and ZA, it should be able to work for others.
Really, it should require more skill. And by skill I don't mean spending 5kG on resist gear for one boss, or an simon-says click-the-cube fight. Those are gimics, not skill. I hope they tune for things where it requires skilled players, who can learn as a group.
Otherwise... I really don't have much interest in it.
It's possible to have different needs, (I'm sure one will require a DK as a tank) without going to 20-30 toons.
Besides, your 25-mans will have higher-ilvls of gear, Blizz has already said that.
- 12:32 PM, May 19, 2008
- Doeg said...
Well, I suppose it is harder to convince 25 toons not to stand in the fire than 10 toons not to stand in the fire.
- 1:05 PM, May 19, 2008
- Dazanna said...
Karl, since you decided to default to the normal "raiders have no life" bullshit I'll counter with my own guild.
Limited Edition of Draka (US CST) raids 3 nights a week for a total of 14 hours each week. We are currently 2/6 Sunwell and working hard on downing Felmyst within the next cycle. We are people with a passion to improve our WoW experience and tackle new content while still living a full life outside the game.
Yes, if you want to join a world first guild you will be raiding 6 or 7 nights a week. But there are tons of raiding guilds out there that already have very small raiding schedules and still progress. If you really want to raid but can only dedicate 3 nights a week to it you can easily find a guild. Like I said earlier, most guilds (again, world-first guilds are different) are looking more for passion and commitment than gear and experience. The later two come with time.
I'll use an analogy to explain my position since you're so confused. I'm sure almost everyone has played or seen Pokemon before. At the start of the game you set out from Professor Oak's lab with a little level 5 Charmander. Over the course of the game your Charmander grows and learns new abilities and evolves into a Charizard. Finally after a lot of work you beat the Elite Four. You progress through the game. At the start it may be hard but if you have the drive to succeed you can overcome it and win.
Now think about if instead of a little level 5 Charmander Professor Oak gave you a level 100 Charizard with all the best moves right at the beginning of the game. You can go and one-shot everything in the game and clear it rather quickly. But would that be fun? There is no sense of progression, no sense of challenge.
What do pokemon and WoW have in common? They are both RPGs. Both are about slowly progressing through the game. When you take out that progression you gut the game. That is why 10-mans have to have a scaling difficulty, and why casual players still won't see content.
- 2:02 PM, May 19, 2008
- Karl said...
First off, I'm too old for Pokemon...
Sorry, but this is a sore spot, as I'm sick of hard-core raiders basically saying the game is for them. It comes up in every discussion in every forum where raiding is discussed.
It's all about level of commitment. Should the clerk at the store check your schedule before you buy WoW?..
Perhaps I should just quit the game. The S4 changes are eliminating any chance for a casual PVPer to advance in area, so there's no point in being there. Getting crushed by anything past 1600ish is just not worth it.
The possibility of having a 10-man raid of friends is what still gives me hope for WoTLK. The best times I've had in this game were with a solid group of 5 that I was running 5-mans and heroics with. Good times. If that can be replicated with a group to go through the 10-man progression, that would be awesome. If I have to deal with 25 people fighting for slots in a 10-man and raid politics JUST to see the content, no thanks. I want no part of it.
- 2:34 PM, May 19, 2008
- Karl said...
And I still think it's possible for casuals to see more of the content with a 10-man progression. Perhaps my group wouldn't make it to Arthas before the next expansion. BFD.
As long as there is a moderate chance of progression, that's fine.
But if it's clear raiding is not-for-casuals as PVP now is, and with crafting progression being restricted to raiders, then there's no point in playing the game.
As I was told by another "raider", "you're a casual and lvl 70?.. cool! You've won the game! Now quit and go away".
- 2:42 PM, May 19, 2008
- Alcaras said...
Are you aware of WowJutsu?
It might be a big help in updating your thread, or you might just replace your thread with a link to it.
It lists alliance guilds on Skywall, in order of progression, including what bosses' they've killed.
It works by scanning the armory for loot from bosses and automatically updating.
- 3:13 PM, May 19, 2008
- Karl said...
I'm a graphic artist and a terrible typist... :-)
- 3:16 PM, May 19, 2008
- Anonymous said...
@ the zebra with a death wish ....
Im sorry, but the tone of your entire post seems like you are mad because you couldn't find a 25 man for you QQ if you want but in the end its not that you don't want to do 25 mans, its that you find you cant. thats fine. just don't try and kill my fun by saying there shouldn't be 25 mans
- 3:18 PM, May 19, 2008
- Suicidal Zebra said...
@ Anonymous
I think you missed the point of my post.
The idea is not to eliminate 25-man raids, the point is to provide an alternate progression path to cater to everyone so that people aren't forced into raiding as their only means of accomplishing anything meaningful in the game long term. 25-man raiding, and all that entails - committing to 4+ hours for 2-7 nights a week and a guild of a realistic minimum of 30 - should be a positive choice. Players should be saying to themselves 'hey, you know, lets all do 25-man instances because we all find it more fun'.
Currently, and pretty much since release, for any player to progress in the game they have to raid with 24 other people. That's not an affirmative choice, but rather 'well, either I cancel my subs, level an alt in the same content, or 25-man', IMO not acceptable.
Raiding should have to stand on its own two feet in terms of people who want to play it, and that means that given plenty of other content for other forms of play at the level cap it should have to be able to sustain itself. If you can find 30+ people who want to 25-man then you've not got a problem, but it means that those who actually want to experience new content aren't forced into a mode of gameplay which they dislike. If 25's aren't able to sustain themselves because you can't tempt people away from 10's, well tough cookies that's the way competition works. And having seen arrogant raiding guilds lord it over their servers whilst overwhelming forums with QQ's about how raiding is dying and 25/40 mans are the only form of end-game content there should be, not many people will be weeping over their demise.
They'll be too busy having their fun in 10-man Naxx etc.
As for me, I'll be looking at both 10-manning and 25-manning in Wrath if they decide on entry-level 25-man (rather than forcing people to go through 10's to get to 25's), which Naxx is supposed to be, and if I can reliably set-aside the time. But I've been on both sides of the game in the past and so I don't find it difficult to get some perspective.
- 5:00 PM, May 19, 2008
- Rohan said...
alcaras, Wowjutsu is good, but I feel that forum threads serve a slightly different purpose than simply showing progression.
First, they're a place for a guild to state, "We've just defeated X", to actively show some pride in their accomplishments and for the rest of the server to recognize those accomplishments.
Secondly, these threads have the guild website attached to the listing, making it a really good resource for recruitment. If you are on server X, and you're looking for a new guild, you can see exactly which guilds are at your level, and jump to their websites right away.
- 6:03 PM, May 19, 2008
- Anonymous said...
I believe that the attunment statement was: that you would not have to do 10 man content to attune for 25 man content and vice versa. e.g. Kara to unlock SSC.
Not that there would not be any attunement at all.
- 12:21 AM, May 27, 2008
- Anonymous said...
I think 25 man raiding is doomed. The 25 man raiders are ticked off, because they can see what the future holds.
People play games because they want to have fun, and experience all that a game has to offer. For the MAJORITY, dealing with the hassles of 25 man's is not worth it. Who needs a second job that doesn't even pay money? Who wants to spend hours farming mats for consumables or running the same dailies over and over so they can have repair money? Who wants to spend weeks whiping on the same boss until they figure out the strats and timing? Who wants to deal with the constant logistical problems of finding 25 people who will show up 3 nights a week on time and fully prepared? None of this spells fun to the MAJORITY of people.
Ever notice how top raiding guilds are constantly recruiting? This is because tons of people who aspired to be part of end game raiding got burnt out and realized they were not having fun. Where did these guilds find their replacements? From the small core of soon to be burnt out hardcore raiders at small casual guilds.
25 man guilds will be a dying breed because these people will have an alternate path in the future where they can stay in their small casual guilds with all of their friends and still experience all of the games story.
- 11:08 AM, May 28, 2008
- Anonymous said...
In reality, the real loss will not be between the 10 man and the 25 man. As now, people will do the 10 man's until they are good enough then then group to do the 25 man version. People have mention "seeing Content" if that was the sole reason then a guild would only run the instance ONCE. As we saw with TBC - the 25 man did not destroy casual or raiding guilds - it seems they keep sprouting up.
The real issue about loss of content is that the casual gamer (and ne raider) will have lost content but not from WotLK but in the original game and soon to be TBC - when was the last time anyone ran AQ20 let alone AQ40. It is fun to 2 man strat but I do not think Blizzard ever had that in mind when they created one of the hardest 5 man instance.
I started too late in WoW - so Scolo is the only lvl 60 i have seen since it was too easy to continue to outlands - soon that will be true for outland - why would anyone want to run Heroic SL when you can run The Nexus which I am sure will drop better stuff--- who remember that first green that blew the stuff off your hard earned tier 3.
I would like to see Blizzard try to keep players visiting the older areas - anyone for Heroic Strat?
My thoughts anyway
--in game
MPA on anvilmar
- 11:50 AM, June 03, 2008
- Anonymous said...
I was a leader of a "Casual Raiding Guild". We started out in 40 mans, suffered leavers in TBC levelling and then went through the whole 10 man to 25 man jump.
Then we finally hit Hyjal and the summer, weeks ago we collapsed losing majority of our healers while due to vacations being unable to raid.
having experienced the content of all raids one thing has shown to me to be clear, when Blizzard reduces the Raid numbers that makes the content harder because you need more people to be at the top of their game to beat the instance.
In MC half the raid slacked, in BWL about a quarter did. When it came down to beating the content in TBC every raid member was needed, and slacking WAS noticeable.
For those saying a casual guild will clear the 10 man Arthas, I think your dreaming ZA is an indication of what is to come, a hard 10 man where everyone will need to be at their best to win it.
My own feelings however are that raiding guilds are dying generally in this game as multiple guilds collapsed before mine did during this summer. I put that down to the uselessness of PvE gear in PvP and the time needed to run the content.
40 man, 10 man, 25 man, its all the same it all requires time consumables and no slacking.
- 5:57 AM, July 01, 2008
- Anonymous said...
Its simple. Bottom line, 25 men raids will still be there, but 10 man raids are there as an alternative to the headache. I know you are sitting here Dazanna, talking down on the people that you consider lesser than you.
Guess what? I led a top 20 WoW raiding guild in MC and BWL. I led a top 50 guild at the beginning of TBC. The micromanaging SUCKS. You might befortunate to be on a server that has a high population. You are probably alliance. Either way, when push comes to shove, it is a hell of a lot easier, in my opinion, to get with a very tight knit group and do 10 mans. You dont have to worry about the headache of recruiting. You can be casual and it doenst feel like a job. You are sitting here saying stuff like this
"If I come across as elitist... I am. I absolutely hate just how far Blizzard has taken their casual-pandering attitude that is weakening this game horribly."
Why should you be catered to over people that can only play 6 hours a week? Why should you get special privs over people that have a different playstyle? You need to get a grip on reality (in the wow sense).
- 1:25 PM, July 21, 2008
- Anonymous said...
Alright folks. After reading all these posts i've noticed something. We all take different things out of the game. Some people enjoy spending 6-7 days a week raiding and some people just dont or lack the interest to or time. You know, maybe we should quit complaining about it and just live with the changes? Do your 25-man raids, do your 10-man raids just dont tell another player there playing the game wrong.
- 8:23 AM, October 20, 2008