text:
Forums for The Webcomic List
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Bad Art, But Good Story
Goto page
TWCL Forum Index
General Ramblings
View previous topic
View next topic
Joined: 30 Sep 2012
Posts: 87
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:08 am
Post subject: Bad Art, But Good Story
Do you know any Web comics with bad art but have a great story? Also, what's your opinion on such Web comics?
Back to top
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 80
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:52 am
Post subject:
I have been told dinosaur comic is funny... but that does not have a story... and i dun like it at all.
What do you mean by story a long story or just anything as long as it is good? And by bad art.. what would you define as bad art everyone has different opinions of bad art what I think is bad others may not and vis-versa
Back to top
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Posts: 157
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:55 am
Post subject:
There's a difference between "bad" art and "simple" art too
Back to top
Grand prize winner!
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 469
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:55 am
Post subject:
If the art works for the story, then "bad" and "good" become kind of fudgy terms. No one would probably think XKCD was "good" art, but most would probably think it works really well with the strip. But maybe "bad" artwork is artwork that doesn't look like any thought went into it? One could argue this until their neurons all popped...
Ed Womack
Back to top
The Bomb-diggity
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 4171
Location: North-East England
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:41 am
Post subject:
I don't think Jason will mind me saying this, because he admits as much himself, but in the early days before he got an artist on board
art was pretty terrible. It did the job but wasn't pretty.
I've read a few comics where the art wasn't all that great, but the writing more than made up for it. I don't have a problem reading them and usually the art gets better as time goes on, though I can understand why some people wouldn't be able to enjoy them. Oddly some of them art that's most put me off comics hasn't on any technical level been particularly bad. I actually find well done art that just doesn't fit the style of the writing to be more off-putting.
Back to top
Casual Notice
Spambot Extraordinaire
Joined: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 2980
Location: Oh my God, It's full of stars!
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:37 am
Post subject:
Four the four-year run of Casual Notice, I heard nothing but praise for the story and commisseration for my art. That's one of the reasons the reboot of the site is taking so long for me: trying to develop something like consistent quality in my art.
Casual Notice--commentary, comics and an appreciation for snappy hats.
Back to top
Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 1128
Location: Ontario
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:55 pm
Post subject:
FWIW, I am much more likely to put up with a combo like that-- a good story and art that, let's say, doesn't appeal to me-- in a printed volume rather than online.
Art doesn't have to be perfect, but it does have to be clear. You need to know how to tell a story visually.
My favourite example of low art/good story is Longshot comics (you can sort-of see an example in
this 2006 review
), in which the concept is the camera is set so far back from the action that all you can see is dots moving around. It was brilliant.
Back to top
Level 1 threat
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 2501
Location: Here and there...mostly there. Sometimes kinda in between.
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:23 pm
Post subject:
For me, there's a minimum bar of art quality before I'll read something, but that depends heavily on the circumstances (subject matter, how well it fits the comic, how bored I am).
The more you limit your reading selection by art quality, the fewer choices you'll have to read.
Also, if you're actually asking for a list of these kinds of comics, you might want to be more specific on genre, etc. There are a lot of poorly drawn comics out there with reasonable stories, and someone could probably list a dozen of them without a single one appealing to you.
Back to top
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 666
Location: UK
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:09 pm
Post subject:
Do you mean consistently bad art (i.e. someone who just can't draw), or poor art at the start that improves as it goes along - because there's a whoooole lot more of the latter (
The Other Grey Meat
being an example - a pretty fun read, and just completed). Also, do you mean bad as in 'this is a bit ropey' or bad as in 'argh, my eyeballs are bleeding'? People used to complain about the art in
A Miracle of Science
for instance (also a complete story), but I wasn't too bothered by it myself.
Loads of people like
Dominic Deegan
, which is notorious for having the same you-really-should've-improved-on-this art for ten years - but I'm not a fan myself. I dunno, you might like it? Are you actually looking for something to read, or more of an art discussion?
To be honest, nowadays I seem to find more comics with pretty solid art but a dull story, as they're much more likely to get linked. I find them pretty annoying.
ttallan wrote:
My favourite example of low art/good story is Longshot comics (you can sort-of see an example in
this 2006 review
), in which the concept is the camera is set so far back from the action that all you can see is dots moving around. It was brilliant.
I wouldn't call that bad art ... that's a choice rather than an fail, isn't it?
Back to top
Joined: 28 Aug 2012
Posts: 258
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:30 pm
Post subject:
I would rather read a comic with bad art and a story I love than a comic with amazing art and a story that doesn't impress. Also, replace "Story" with "humor" as much as you want and it remains true.
A comic with bad art and a good story? (Apart from my own?
ba-dun-dun kish!
Hero in Training.
Okay, the artwork NOW is pretty good, but it started off tremendously bad. He even remade the first chapter or so later, (and that remake has terrible art,) and when I look at the stuff that wasn't remade I am flabbergastered at the thought of what the original first chapter must have looked like.
But the story was interesting to me, so I kept reading it. There are a number of comics with much better artwork that I cannot say that about.
If you just want good art without a good story, then just spend your time looking at pictures on DeviantArt. If you want to read a comic, you want story. (And/Or humor.)
I believe someone mentioned this earlier, but there's also a matter of being able to tell what is going on. I would say this is a third category, separate from both artwork and story, and this is critical. A comic could look fantastic, a story can be great, but if you're not sure what just happened, it is all for nothing. This quality is independent from the skill in artwork; it's about knowing how to portray a scene. People don't talk about it much because it is thought of as being second nature, and it is really hard to define and give examples for. But this is in fact more important than actual drawing skill.
My webcomic: Mischief in Maytia
Back to top
Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 1128
Location: Ontario
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:21 pm
Post subject:
4LS wrote:
I wouldn't call that bad art ... that's a choice rather than an fail, isn't it?
Actually, as I recall, Shane Simmons made regularly-drawn comics as well, but his art was kind of meh. (At least, it was at the time, he may have improved since then.) I believe the Longshot concept was his way of dealing with the fact that he didn't think he could draw.
Back to top
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 666
Location: UK
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:44 am
Post subject:
But does that makes any difference? I mean, the art suits the concept perfectly - you physically couldn't do it any other way. And surely it can't be right to to say that if the same concept was used by someone who
draw, it would automatically be better?
Back to top
Uncle Greedy
Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 285
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:51 pm
Post subject:
Traegorn wrote:
There's a difference between "bad" art and "simple" art too
That's the most important point in it that's often completely missed today.
(Ok, the best "simple art" are the paintings in Altamira and Lascoux that can easily competete with the best of modern art.)
As example for good "simple" art in comics/ cartoons, look up Gahan Wilson and his fellows in the early New Yorker, or Loriot, Don Martin, etc., even the art of Haegar the Horrible, that can't competete with those in any way, but works fine for it's jokes. (Some are pretty lame, but there are also some really funny ones.)
For animations, some of Max Fleischers art looks "simple" (I don't speak of his groundbreaking rotascope effects), but are brilliant, and the best example of good but extremely reduced art ever is La Linea, that almost looks like something made with an oscilloscope. This is "simple", but good (because reduced to the essential), while many of the new cartoons I sometimes see (but not watch) on TV are not "simple" (as they sometimes mix up 3d animations with completely flat characters), but simply so bad that it is almost painful to look at. Even the worst of the Warner Brothers (the later TV-productions) looked better. The annoying thing is that they are not even "underground", but commercial (and mostly digital made) productions that fake the look of drawings made by childs with behavioural disorder in a very obvious way.
simple but good = reduced drawing
just bad = stereotype reproduction of real or faked dilettantism
P.S. I would agree that there are surely some examples of "authentic" bad art that have their right of there own.
Back to top
Level 1 threat
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 2501
Location: Here and there...mostly there. Sometimes kinda in between.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:32 pm
Post subject:
Uncle Greedy wrote:
productions that fake the look of drawings made by childs
I hate these things. This sort of false humility is obnoxious. I don't care if the art is simple, but at least try to make it good within the best of your ability.
You don't have to make beautiful art, you don't even have to make decent art. But please don't make art which is intentionally ugly.
Back to top
Joined: 30 Sep 2012
Posts: 87
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:29 am
Post subject:
vulpeslibertas wrote:
Uncle Greedy wrote:
productions that fake the look of drawings made by childs
I hate these things. This sort of false humility is obnoxious. I don't care if the art is simple, but at least try to make it good within the best of your ability.
You don't have to make beautiful art, you don't even have to make decent art. But please don't make art which is intentionally ugly.
Well, I've done a very comic strips that I'm gonna upload that are intentionally ugly. Sometimes good, bad, or a change in art can be apart of the story.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:
All Posts
1 Day
7 Days
2 Weeks
1 Month
3 Months
6 Months
1 Year
Oldest First
Newest First
TWCL Forum Index
General Ramblings
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page
Jump to:
Select a forum
The Webcomic List
How To...
General Ramblings
Webcomic Gubbins
Help! I've lost a comic!
The Dogpile
The "Check out my comic" forum!
Jams and competitions
Webcomics and Real Life
TWCL Awards
Site Problems / Broken Comics
post new topics in this forum
reply to topics in this forum
edit your posts in this forum
delete your posts in this forum
vote in polls in this forum
Powered by
© 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Hosted by
The Webcomics List
is operated and owned by
Ash Young
the comic updates.


text:
9am - 6pm ET M-F
9am - 5pm ET Sat
We supply quality Grease and Grease Guns for your equipment lubricant needs. Remember that proper maintenance of your Lawn Mower requires routine Greasing. Look below for a variety of grease guns, grease mix and grease in a variety of sizes.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
30-01-2012 12:33
This is the reply I got from Nokia.
I asked him to atleast inform the same thing on the forum.
30-01-2012 14:02
this problem is their in Nokia 710 also and Nokia is sleeping. and cheating continues by selling this product.
30-01-2012 22:18
So I checked my repair case status onilne & the estimated date for return is the 21st of FEBRUARY. That will make it almost 2 months I've not had my phone, with no guarantee of fixing this problem. I've not actually had my phone for a whole month since buying it
Does anyone who reads this thread know who I should be complaining to? I'm very disappointed with Nokia's dealings with this problem.
My previous thread asking for such help was shot down by some smug **bleep** giving me the same spiel that Nokia's automated feedback provides. Any help would be appreciated
31-01-2012 11:34
martial_loh wrote:
could you tell us if you're on a contract or pay as you go sim? The current theory we have is that it's the balance message (commonly only related to PAYG) that is causing the problem..
I'm on a contract and also have the issue (about 6 times in 2.5 months now, so it is still "acceptable")... so I guess your theory isn't correct.
31-01-2012 20:08
31-01-2012 20:11
01-02-2012 23:59
My problem is slightly different with Lumia 800. If I haven't missed the last call for one particular number, then I can initiate and end calls with that number.
However, if I miss one call from someone, then I cannot call that someone back. If I do, there are two random scenarios:
1. The call does not connect and if I try to end it, the phone will keep displaying 'Ending' and the only solution to fix it is to restart by holding power
2. The call connects but I cannot hear the other person (and he cannot hear me) and if I try to end the call, the phone will freeze and eventually restart.
I installed the update but it did not fix the issue. I'm on post pay and I have a microSIM from Cable and Wireless in Guernsey, Channel Islands.
02-02-2012 21:03
I have the same trouble.
Lumia 800, United Kingdom, GiffGaff network.
02-02-2012 21:19
03-02-2012 12:00
03-02-2012 16:56
Hi folks!!!
I have tried the nokia app "Network Setup" and so far the problem does not appear.
I am on the 10th day working normally!
Please try and keep us updated!
I will give news in a few days, reporting my status!
04-02-2012 9:37
Hi all...just something from the Lumia 710 thread- a Nokia person said
"Nokia is continuing to analyze this software issue and is close to a fix. The fix will be made available via Zune as soon as possible. It is difficult to say when. One other important fact about this issue is that the phone modem is responding to the call disconnect signal from the touch display, the call is taken down as it should. The issue is that the user interface displays the call disconnect button but is should not. Consequently consumer are not being excessively billed for a call that seems to be staying up."
05-02-2012 14:05
Apparently this is not a nokia thing but a windows thing. Even HTC and the like are affected by this.
Source: http://wmpoweruser.com/poll-does-your-nokia-lumia-
Lets hope microsoft comes up with a fix for this soon
05-02-2012 19:05
@ Mandy
Why do blame Nokia? It might very well be a Windows Phone issue. Microsoft develops Windows not Nokia. I'd check out first if this is a generic WP7.x issue before complaining to Nokia.
Things are different with Symbian and Meego. In those cases Nokia created both the HW and software. In the case of Lumia the only thing Nokia did was porting over their navigation-software.
05-02-2012 19:14
@ saurabhchhabra
Good Luck with that.
Funny how easy ppl forget Microsoft's bad track record with updates/upgrades/fixes. Which is the main reason why the 'old' customers steer away from Windows Phone. Funny that Nokia just goes to bed with THEM!
And then they wonder why 'stupid shopkeepers' are reluctant to sell Nokia products. They prematurely kill off their 2 best assets to partner with the most unreliable source of OS's in the entire world.
06-02-2012 16:55
Hello, dear friends.
I have purchased a Lumia 800 yesterday and I too suffer from both the issues that we find here and in other forums: the battery and the end call bugs.
About the end call, I may have found a pattern. It seems that it depends on the number you call. I have tried calling to 5 numbers and, ironically, my wife's number is the only one so far that causes the issue.
4 of the numbers I tried (including hers) are on my network. So it's not an "in network/out of network" issue either.
06-02-2012 20:26
Lol, after a whole five days of getting my phone back from Nokia and the problem not occuring...it's come back
Sigh... is it really worth me sending back the phone AGAIN? I'm actually tempted to trade it in at a huge loss and pick up something else that works.
08-02-2012 22:31
Worse, during the end call hand phase, you can not even receive calls or make another call using add call. So if u r in a hurry, things could go bad. sometimes the hang stays for more than 5 minutes.
Ok, Microsoft or Nokia, it seems like a small software bug - fix it soon plz...You are killing an otherwise wonderful product with these glitches
09-02-2012 17:12
I have just attempted to to move over full time from a Samsung Galaxy S2 to this Lumia 800 - talk about mission impossible. This (beautiful) phone has more issues that an 1970's built communist car.
The dreaded 'End Call' bug has been driving me up the wall (added to the awful battery and a glutten of other issues) - I just called Nokia 'Customer Service' and after getting pushed around to the relevant department some robotic sounded women just kept on repeating the mantra that i'd have to send the unit back to Nokia...(And possibly wait for months) for a 'technician' to look at it.
Is that it Nokia? Is that how you treat your customers these days? Wow! The best information she could have given was to acknowledge the problem, appologise and tell me that i'm better off waiting for a FW update to attempt to fix this generic software issue with all WP7.5 phones. And as a matter of compensation ALL owners of these phones should be given a significant amount of credit for Apps or music etc...
If you really want to get back in the game, you can't release a phone with so many fundermental bugs and short-fallings, and then take so long to address them. And if you do (which you have!) at least treat your loyal customers with a little respect (incredulity?) for choosing your WP7 products. We should be compensated for having to put up with this beta software, not forced to sell them at a massive loss to find a more dependable handset.
Shame. It's a beautiful phone and WP7 is a lot better than I had expected, but heavily let down by so many software issue, shallow OS options and too limited battery life. In short, this is the best phone ever made but the worst Nokia i've ever owned.
11-02-2012 17:11


text:
See your black on these designs right now!
Enter your colors here, then click the icon below any design to preview it in your colors.
Recommended Just For You
Customer Raves & Reviews
Great job!
The presentation exceeded my expectations! The box was awesome and the contents inside were perfect. Everything looked just like it did online. I would definitely recommend this company and I will be using this company in the future.
Great RSVP postcards
Very sturdy, plenty of room to have people RSVP for multiple things if needed (wedding and morning after brunch for instance)
So fun and cute, so easy to customize, great font options, great colors. So nice to be able to get samples for FREE to make sure we liked the colors and fonts before purchasing
Awesome quality
I was a little hesitant when I saw the website about how thick the magnet would be and the picture quality. I ordered the sample and everything arrived in an awesome kit along with an actual magnet. After I ordered mine and they were delivered, I was so HAPPY with how they turned out. Not too bulky and the picture quality was great. It came in a cool box with a whole packet about invitations too. Everyone loves them! Can't wait to get my invitations from them. This company is amazing and makes me confident in anything I'll order from them.
love our save the dates
We absolutely loved our save the dates and so has everyone else! They were exactly what we expected and got them on time with no hassle.


text:
Image may not necessarily represent the actual item -Please read the title and description before purchasing.
Our Price: $190.22
Add a bullet and pull the lever; all other operations are automatic. One loaded cartridge with each pull of the lever. Every operation is automatic. Primers, like the powder, are fed only if a case is present. No wasted primers or spilled powder. Alternate loading sequence lets you load only one case at a time. Lee's Pro 1000 makes learning easy for the first time user and great for fine adjustments or experimenting.
Please Note: This description may represent a general group of products. Please read the item's title and specifications for more specific information about this particular item.
Type : Pro 1000 Reloading KitMaterial : Cast IronThread Size : N/A
Reviews of Lee 90638 Pro 1000 Cast Iron Reloading Kit For 45 ACP
As thanks for your feedback, we will send you a $5 coupon code for writing a product review!
Just click the 'Write Review' button on the product's information page.
Enter your UPS tracking number to track your order
Firearms | Handguns | Rifles | Shotguns | Tactical Rifles | Tactical Shotguns | All Manufacturers


text:
The Resource Finder has powerful filtering features — check out the tutorial to learn more.
Series: The Human Fossil Record (20 entries)
In this series, James Kidder provides an intriguing study on transitional fossils and the evolutionary history of modern humans. He begins by discussing the fossil record, explaining how new forms are classified. He then explains the physically distinguishing trait of humankind—bipedalism. From the discovery of Ardipithecus, the earliest known hominin, to the australopithecines, the most prolific hominin, Kidder focuses on the discovery, the anatomy, and the interpretation of these ancestral remains.
What Americans Think and Feel about Evolution
The new Gallup survey shows in broad strokes the challenge we face. But more nuanced surveys find that only 8% of Americans are convinced creationists whose beliefs are dear to them, and only 4% are convinced atheistic evolutionists whose beliefs are dear to them. The vast majority of Americans are not sure of their position and are open to a conversation.
Series: From the Dust (13 entries)
In this series, Ryan Pettey offers several clips from his powerful documentary "From the Dust". This feature-length film is divided up into various sections, each of which wrestles with the difficult problems that arise when reconciling Scripture with the theory of evolution. A light of hope dawns on the science-faith conversation, however, as scientists and theologians engage in honest dialogue about tough issues such as the interpretation of Genesis, the nature of the Fall, and the idea of random design. Their profound insights are sure to enlighten all minds, raise deeper questions, and provoke new thought.
Are We Genetically Predisposed to Believe in God?
This entry was originally posted on February 13, 2010. While the question of evolutionary predisposition toward religious belief may be challenging, Christians need not see it as threatening. In fact, this is actually a Pauline notion that is explored in Romans 1, where Paul claims that it is in mankind's nature to "know God".
Stochastic Grace
I was raised in a household of atheists. My parents were card-carrying members of the American Communist Party, and therefore the atheism in my household was quite close to the militant anti-theism of the so-called "new atheists".
Series: What I Wish My Pastor Knew About... The Life of a Scientist (5 entries)
Andy Crouch examines the life of a scientist based on his experience of walking alongside his wife Catherine, an experimental physicist. That relationship has shown him that a life in science is a journey "into a set of virtues," of cultivating a specific character suited to the particular demands of research and investigation. Crouch's hope is to persuade pastors and others in the church to prayerfully support the scientific endeavor as a reflection of God's image in humankind as well as offers some suggestions for ministering to their needs.
Series: Understanding Randomness (5 entries)
In this series, Kathryn Applegate addresses the concern that randomness implies the absence of God's activity and involvement in the natural world. She begins by clearing up some common misconceptions about the concept of "randomness", and later focuses on the mechanisms of the immune system to demonstrate that God works through random processes to preserve life. Far from being an indication of a "godless" universe, one might conclude that randomness is one of God's favorite mechanisms for creating and sustaining life!
Series: Ephesians 4:1-6: A Call of Christian Unity (9 entries)
This series discusses the importance of unity among Christ's believers. Ross Hastings, an expert in the areas of both chemistry and pastoral theology, is eager to see the church seek out unity rather than divisions in this science/faith interface. Unpacking Ephesians 4:1-6, he explains that unity in Christ through the Holy Spirit is the primary concern of both Jesus as seen in John 17 and Paul in Ephesians 4, making this matter pressing. He urges all believers to be in agreement that God indeed created, yet to be in dialogue over how that creative process occurred.
Series: God and Creation (5 entries)
In this four part series, David Opderbeck explores the interesting relationship between God and his creation. He first looks at his transcendence over the material world. In one respect, God is completely distinct from all creation, yet he is also immanent, or present within all creation. Another aspect of God reflected in creation is his Triune nature. Just as love, fellowship, and delight exist within the Trinity, so these characteristics are present in the world, and experienced by humans. He completes his thoughts with a discussion about God's interaction with humans.
A Plea to My Shepherds
... I would exhort these, my fellow conservative evangelical shepherds and thinkers, to set aside all reticence and fear, emerge from anonymity, and storm the forum of discourse, engaging this most pressing matter with vigor, equanimity, and humility. In doing so, know upfront that there will be few handrails to guide; you will not be building upon an extensive precedence of published conservative thought.
Evangelicalism and Adaptation
I look my students dead straight in the eye and tell them that no matter what, debate within the intellectual sphere cannot and should not take away or diminish the importance of the personal nature of their faith. The intellect, to use a scientific phrase, while necessary for the faith, is not sufficient
Denis Alexander on Understanding Creation Theology
In this video Conversation, Denis Alexander asserts that contemporary Christians are not taking the early chapters of Genesis seriously enough.
Evolution and Christian Faith Grantees Announced
Congratulations to the 37 winners of the Evolution & Christian Faith (ECF) grants competition! ECF is a new BioLogos program designed to support projects and network-building among scholars, church leaders, and parachurch organizations.
Evolution, the Enlightenment, and Worldviews
In this video conversation, N.T. Wright discusses how the Enlightenment worldview -- which clearly separates God from the world -- has impacted our view of Scripture, and why cleaning the "spectacles" through which we view the world can help us see both Scripture and the world more clearly.
Where are the Transitional Fossils?
A common argument leveled against the theory of evolution is that scientists have not been able to produce transitional fossils that show the change of one species into another. In this podcast, we address a common misconception about what transitional fossils actually are.
Dissonance and Harmony
People hold clearly discordant points of view, and it would be dishonest to ignore the conflict. Yet some voices emphasize the dissonance without any note of harmony to put it in context. Too often, science and faith becomes a hostile battle of worldviews, sounding angry, dissonant chords even among fellow Christians. But civil, gracious dialogue is possible.
New Leadership for The BioLogos Foundation
With great pleasure, the Board of Directors of The BioLogos Foundation announces the appointment of Deborah Haarsma to become our next President, and of Jeffrey Schloss to the role of Senior Scholar. Professor Haarsma assumes leadership from our outgoing President Darrel Falk, to whom we owe a tremendous debt of gratitude.
Raising Children to Pursue Truth
In this video Conversation, Joel Hunter articulates the importance of raising a child that can garner knowledge from a variety of sources and to be able to study science with integrity—that is, to be able to pursue the truth to where it leads.
Psalm for the January Thaw
God shows himself not just in the orderliness of nature, but powerfully, joyously and always surprisingly in its beautiful "non-order" as well.


text:
The state legislature is reconsidering life sentences for our state's youngest offenders. A recent US Supreme Court ruling found them unconstitutional. A bill before the state house could mean convicted killers once put away for life would be released after serving 20 years.
These days, the people who come to the place where 8-year-old Michael Busby died are mostly the people who work there now. An office park replaced the once vacant lot, the site of a gruesome murder.
I remember going to work that day and seeing neighbors combing the neighborhood, recalls Nicole Brown.
Eleven years ago Busby followed his neighbor, 15-year-old Ryan Alexander, to the empty field near their homes. It was there that Alexander tied up the boy, injected him with insulin, choked him and cut him with a razor blade.
It was like wow, how could this happen with someone we know, who was always a little odd. But you'd never the think the worst, said Lisa Lewis, who lives in the neighborhood.
Tried as an adult for aggravated murder Alexander was sentenced to life in prison-- no possiblity of parole, or so everyone thought. Depending on what lawmakers decide, it's possible Alexander could be out in nine years.
Alexander's defense attorney in the case, Eric Weight, believes the change is long overdue.
It's the offense only that seems to be defining the punishment, he said.
Court documents showed Ryan Alexander was a troubled kid. Current law removes the death penalty but mandates a life sentence for juveniles convicted of aggravated first degree murder.
How can you sentence a child to life without parole if you haven't looked at how he got there, argues Weight.
A senate version of the bill supported by prosecutors would require a minimum sentence of 30 years for a juvenile convicted of aggravated first degree murder. The judge would still be allowed to reimpose a life sentence, provided any mitigating factors are considered.
Whatcom County Prosecutor Dave McEachern has gone on record to say the house bill would go too far. He believes Ryan Alexander got what he deserved. McEachern is concerned about the prospect of Alexander serving anything less than life.
Back in the neighborhood where the boys lived-- residents hope to forgive, but will never forget.
Everyone deserves another chance I suppose, said Lewis. It just depends on who he (Alexander) is now.


text:
News from WTOP
News from the AP
Mike Causey
Shows & Panels
Shows & Panels
- Agency of the Month
- Business of Government Hour
- The CFO Agenda: Delivering value from financial transparency and audit efforts in the public and private sector
- Cloud-Driven Data Insights in Government
- CXO Surveys
- Disaster Resilience for America
- Federal News Countdown
- Government Perspectives on Mobility and the Cloud
- Reducing Risk in the Cloud
- Reimagining the Next Generation of Government
Shows & Panels
- AFCEA Answers
- American Readiness: Renewable Power and Efficiency Technologies
- Ask the CIO
- The Business Case for Cloud Computing in Government
- Cloud-Driven Data Insights in Government
- Connecting the Dots: Digital Authentication in Government
- Cybersecurity Game Changer: Real-Time Event Processing in Government
- Data-Centric Approaches to Government in the Cloud
- Delivering the Digital Government Mission
- Federal Executive Forum
- Federal News Radio's National Cyber Security Awareness Month Special Panel Discussion
- Federal Tech Talk
- The Future of Government Data Centers
- Government Perspectives on Mobility and the Cloud
- Industrialized, Interoperable and Insight-driven Federal Health Panel
- Innovation and Tech Superiority through Acquisition Reform
- Mitigating Insider Threats in Virtual & Cloud Environments
- Moving Agency Applications to the Cloud with PaaS
- Reducing Risk in the Cloud
- Security in the Age of Targeted Attacks
- Air Traffic Management Transformation Report
- The Business of Cloud
- Cloud First Report
- Data Driven Cloud Series
- Disaster Resilience for America
- General Dynamics IT Enterprise Center
- Gov Cloud Minute
- Government in Technology Series
- Homeland Security Cybersecurity Market Report
- The Intersection: Where Technology Meets Transformation
- Modern Mission Critical Series
- National Cybersecurity Awareness Month
- The New IP for Federal IT
- The Social Platform Solution for the Department of Veterans Affairs
- Technology Insights
- The Cyber Security Report
- The Next Generation Cyber Security Experts
Shows & Panels
- Cloud-Driven Data Insights in Government
- Disaster Resilience for America
- F-35 Lightning II Program
- Government Perspectives on Mobility and the Cloud
- On DoD
- Pentagon Solutions
- Reducing Risk in the Cloud
- Reimagining the Next Generation of Government
- Transforming Business Operations at the Defense Department
Navy targets 15 large software vendors for enterprise deals
Thursday - 3/15/2012, 5:19am EDT
The Department of the Navy is targeting new contracts with 15 of the largest software companies. The goal is to take advantage of the service's size to obtain cheaper prices.
"This is all about efficiency and saving money, and like any business if you come to the table with more money you can generally get a better price. And that is what this is all about," said Terry Halvorsen, the Department of the Navy's chief information officer in an interview with Federal News Radio. "Bringing what we are already buying in terms of licenses, bundling that up and being able to go to the vendors representing a bigger customer, and generally bigger customers get better prices."
Halvorsen; Gladys Commons, the assistant secretary of the Navy for financial management and comptroller; and Sean Stackley, the Navy's assistant secretary for research, development and acquisition, issued a memo Feb. 22 making it mandatory for the Navy and Marines Corps to buy software, some hardware and some services through enterprisewide licenses.
Terry Halvorsen, chief information officer, Navy (Navy)
Halvorsen said integrated product teams are setting up the licenses with Microsoft being among the first ones.
Halvorsen said the DoN is trying to build on the enterprise license the Marines Corps put in place just over a year ago with Microsoft.
"Obviously, when you bring the Navy into the Marine Corps, the scope gets much, much broader and the money gets much, much larger," Halvorsen said. "These are things both the Navy and Marine Corps spend a fair amount of money on today. When you put it together, it gives you a fair amount of money that hopefully the DoN can generate big savings for both the Marine Corps and Navy by doing these combined buys."
The Navy has a few enterprise deals of its own in place, but most are fairly small.
Navy expects to save big
In all, the Department of the Navy, which also includes the Marines Corps, wants to create deals with many of the major commercial providers, including Cisco, Symantec, Adobe, IBM, Hewlett-Packard, Oracle, VMWare and many others.
Halvorsen couldn't comment specifically on timing of these enterprise deals, but said he would like to get them in place as soon as possible to start realizing savings. He said the DoN estimates about $100 million in savings over five years. The Navy is trying to save 25 percent of its IT budget over the next five years.
"We look at what enterprise licenses are available at the DoD level," he said. "If there is an enterprise license that's currently available, we look at the size of the contract. Is it truly everyone at DoD? Does it represent a big base? If it does, we will look at using that. The list of candidates here, there are not big DoD licenses on that so we are proceeding with DoN licenses."
He added the Navy also is talking to the other services about the deals as well, and they could be expanded to include the Army, Air Force and the DoD agencies.
The Office of Management and Budget and the General Services Administration set up the SmartBuy initiative in 2004 to create governmentwide enterprise licenses. DoD joined GSA on a handful of deals, but use has been limited over the last eight years. There are 38 different contracts under SmartBuy.
Halvorsen said the Department of the Navy looked at SmartBuy and decided it didn't meet all of its needs.
"SmartBuy does some things, but what we are trying to do is take everything we do with a company, so Oracle is a good example, we spend money on services, we spend on money on software and we spend money for hardware. So what we'd like to do is get a single enterprise agreement with Oracle that says these are the prices you will be charged for every piece of what you buy through Oracle," he said. "What SmartBuy has is there is a SmartBuy for some pieces of the software, for some pieces of the hardware. We are trying to bring all of that together so we negotiate with the biggest amount of money presenting the biggest company face to the company that we can."
Disorganized software buying happening now
Currently, Navy commands and organizations buy software on their own. The enterprise license mandate will put an end to that disorganized effort.
Halvorsen said the memo builds on a new requirement for his office to approve all technology spending above $500,000.
"No matter whatever command you will do this at, the team will be your CIO, your comptroller and your contracting authority," he said. "What we have done is put a memo from the top people who control that out to all of the commands in the Marines Corps and Navy and said here are the rule sets. Contracting officers must follow these rules. Comptrollers must check to see these rules are followed. CIOs must present their buys. We are capturing all the people that are involved and making sure that all of them understand the rule sets."
The memo includes a waiver process for commands to buy from another contracting vehicle. Halvorsen, the deputy CIO for the Navy Vice Adm. Kendall Card, and the Marines Corps CIO Brig. Gen. Kevin Nally all must approve the waiver request, but the memo stated waivers would be granted sparingly.
While the DoN is setting up the enterprise deals, Halvorsen said commands or offices can buy the needed software from existing contracts, but any renewals would be through the enterprise license.
"As we get more aggressive for looking at savings in the current financial environment, it's driving more of this good behavior," he said.
GSA awards BPA for cybersecurity services
Navy to take right risks to find IT savings