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Four letters: HFCS
American government should pay more attention to the young's education. Maybe there should be some effective regulation on the influence of the sex, drugs and gus for youngster.
There are a lot of assumptions made to be able to compare one nations statistics with another. It would be helpful if the way the data is collected from one country to another was systemmatic and similar. But it is not. Thus, faulty conclusions are made.
Mr. M,
Sir, would you be somewhat more specific? What distorting differences have you observed? Are they mathematical or medical? Do different nations count different life forms as human, for instance? I could better understand your comment were you to share some examples of the unsystematic and dissimilar data collection methods you cite and how these compel faulty conclusions.
Many Thanks!
I am generally a skeptic to most mass media statistical headlines. In the specific case of medical care the variances in how the various measures differ from region to region are outlined in a book by Scott W Atlas titled "In Excellent Health". I do share the authors concern regarding the differences. I am not so sanguine about his conclusion.
Now this couldn't be partially attributable to all the chemtrails that we constantly witness in the US, can it? Well of course not, the government has stated many times that this is just a conspiracy theory... nothing to worry about! Just breathe in and relax!
The is a nice report, but I wouldn't take much from it. There are way too many differences in how things are measured and done in the united states along, to even compare nations.
For instance, in Florida, we don't use AHCA (http://ahca.myflorida.com/) OP data b/c there are differences in the way each provider may measure things. Its fine if you are comparing a hospital to itself over a given period of time, but we don't compare between hospitals due to differences in how they code stuff. The IP data works pretty well, although there is occasionally controversy stuff like HMA upcoding their ED visits (like pushing people IP who may not need to).
This difference in coding methdology can mean big things. For instance, we count preemie babies who die in the NICU. I have heard other countries don't count a preemie who dies within a certain time frame. This obviously makes their data look better. You really have to be carefully about comparing stuff like this. At the hospital I work for, we take care of very sick people. We are a academic medical center and specialize in that kind of stuff, we naturally look worse then other hospitals.
The author also points out that its inefficient for doctors to paid for services, rather than outcomes. Its true that it may be wasteful at times, but in other times, it is critical. When you get a second opinion, that doctor will run tests over again in ensure things are consistant. That is a good thing, as sometimes stuff is missed. In single payer system, what recourse do you have when the doctor says no, and wants to send you home? I imagine, like my relatives do, you go to a private clinic/hospital and get it looked at.
Anyways, its fun to look at the data, but take it with a grain of salt.
Let's face it. It takes a lot of money to keep us fat Americans alive as long as we do.
Granted that US health care is screwed up but the death rates for non-communicable diseases aren't that much different from Germany, Portugal, UK and Finland. Presumably it is largely (haha)lifestyle rather than medical services that determine these death rates. The leading causes of death are heart disease, cancer, stroke which are greatly influenced by what people eat, exercise etc.
I question the data's validity for some countries. Why is Denmark statiscally different from all 3 surrounding/nearby countries Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands?
Regarding the US. Most posts are spot on, Gun Violence and Obesity/heart/cancer are the major contributors of deaths from non-communicable diseases. The spending is the most pathetic part. The difference in costs between the US and other countries is due to Lawyers. Extra tests and the most expensive drugs are always required by doctors who want to protect themselves from Lawsuits.
"Why is Denmark statiscally different from all 3 surrounding/nearby countries Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands?"
The first thing to notice about Denmark is that it is especially the females that lag in terms of life expectancy. And accordingly, the most important factors seem to be female emancipation and typical Danish stubbornness. (Don't tell them, but they are very much like Germans in their clinging to rules they have decided on for themselves. However Germans are like lawyers and take the rules by the letter, while Danish make up their own rules and expect the world to respect that, never mind the evidence.)
The prevalence of smoking among Danish women was very high 30 years ago. That's the approximate lag time between smoking prevalence and death rates, so it depresses Danish life expectancy now. In evidence of stubbornness, the queen smoked in public until 2006, despite all cautions that she did not only endanger her own health but also that of her subjects by leading by example.
Alcohol use also added a couple of month to the difference with neighbouring countries (http://eurpub.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/2/93.full.pdf). Probably a matter of Nordic drinking habits (that is, binging) without the punitive Swedish tax rates.
to Sense Seeker on the singularity of Danish health statistics
I, a great admirer of Danes, whom I know more than reasonably well, was indeed surprised by the charts.
So much I allowed myself an innocent joke about sex shops.
But your explanation makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't go as far as saying it is "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" but it fills quite a bit of the void.
Thanks for the reasoning.
It does make sense as you pen name implies.
Thanks for taking 100 words to say yes
I recall as a student in Denmark seeing women smoking pipes and despite the tax most males seemed to smoke in the1970s perhaps like everywhere else.
There was also a high use of alcohol and dairy even compared to Ireland
The healthcare system is bankrupting the country and nothing is being done to address the issue. The US spends on average 8% more of GDP on payments to medical products and services providers. The extra money could be invested in Education and R&D and would help resolve the un-employment crisis. The medical costs will keep going up because the main payers are not really interested in reducing the cost. Medicare is prevented by law in some cases from seeking better prices on services and medicines. The private insurers are not keen in pushing for reduced rates since this will depress their total sales volumes thus reducing their profits and the compensation of the executives in charge.
There is an opportunity for innovators to improve the outcomes and shed some light of this obscure industry and its arcane terminologies, billing codes, etc.. The prices hospitals and medical providers charge defy any logic (an MRI at a hospital can cost 12 times more what an independent imaging center can charge). The same procedures at one city could 10 times more expensive than in another hospital. Very few people see the real costs so no one in interested in managing them and you can't manage what you don't measure.
OK. USA spends more than any other country in the world on the Health Care.I would like to see this chart remade after a gun prohibition.The crimes would exponentially lessen.
According to who? To your own empirical data? Out of the 15 most guns regulated US states, 10 have the more rate of guns related violence. Don't let you be manipulated by biased media!
Perhaps exponentially is too powerful to describe what I wanted to express.Though I acquiesce to the fact that media is not invariably impartial as well as to your affirmation, do not tell me that if the the guns were prohibited the crime rates would escalate.
That would be purely devoid of any sense.Moreover, what you brought into discussion is not a well-founded argument.I repeat myself, you might be right, yet that does not mean "All right, since in 10 out of 15 states there is more rate of guns related violence", guns prohibition is not a solution.It would be wrong to say that, of course, in my opinion.
The Netherlands is where the least people die from injuries. Surely because it's hard to die on a bike crash!
After thinking about this a bit more. The reason the U.S. has high levels on these graphs is most likely mainly due to gun violence between gangs. I am from Chicago, and we just had 500 deaths from gun violence in the gang areas on the opposite side of the city. These are areas like south central Los Angeles which are far away from the city that no one visits, most people live on welfare or some form of government assistance and there is too much violence for the cops to handle. And they go to public hospitals which provide worse care than private hospitals so this is likely the reason why the U.S. has higher deaths from injuries. I believe there are 20k deaths from guns per year in the U.S.
Surviving a fall of a ladder or bike is a lot easier than a buller.
I believe the US has a lot more road deaths than most countries. And homicide too of course.
Clue much of the "Health budget" is siphoned off by vampire mafias.The National Health services of Canada,France ,Germany, UK, Scandanavia ad Australia are not meant to make profits.
The sick idea of making money from disease is peculiarly American and an indictment of a failed society.
The drug cartels hold on senators reveals them to be puppets and complicit in this abuse,shame on them and congratulatons to president Obama for attempting to slowly bring some huanity from the mied greed promoted by reactionary ghouls.
It is compassion for others and shared care which distinguish use from savages and the kind of Darwinian Apes who control the Health Insurance fraud with their weakest to the wall,reluctance to pay legitimate claims and hoping folks will die before they hae to honour contracts.In any just society these people would be pilloried or worse.
Your comments about "savages" and "Darwinian apes" are totally gratuitous and off the mark. If by "savages," you mean hunter-gatherer peoples, they were and are at least as compassionate as civilized people ("civilized" having no necessarily positive connotation). So are many apes.
I think you misread.Consult a dictionary savages are savage,at no point did I refer to hunter gatherers.
Darwinian is commonly understood to mean survival of the fittest.
Nowhere do I use the phrase civilized people,may I humbly suggest you invest in a dictionary.
Health care cost in America is a huge problem for small businesses. I know people who pay more in individual health insurance than they do in rent, they are self-employed. One problem is that health insurance companies are exempt from federal antitrust laws, i.e., they can and do conduct the practice of price fixing. I think this is a main cause of why health care is so expensive for such bad outcomes.
And to think our politicians who are against Obamacare often claim they want the market to determine prices... if only they do something about it for real. In the final analysis, they are neither small business friendly or believe in the free market.
well said these gouging pariahs should be excised like the cancer thay are.
I don't know if the free-market is actually the proper nechanism for a health care system. Demand for drugs and procedure are inelastic so the cost is going to simply rise. In addition, when you have a third party payer, the irrationality associated with making health care decisions get amplified.
But I think at least insurance companies should not be allowed to do price fixing. It's just wrong.
Finally I think the rest of the world derives more benefits from the US healthcare system than we do. Big pharma, biotechs, and device makers are driven to come up with new treatments, (notice that they don't really do cures, just treatments when you have to take their pills for the rest of your lives) because it is so lucrative. I've heard India, maybe South Africa, have laws that allow them to skirt intellectual property laws when it comes to copying drugs for manufacture.
It may well be that US health care could benefit from big, Pentagon type budgets if it were to be more cost effective for Americans.
on a sad note, I see japns deaths of non-communicable diseases to climb up significantly in a decade or so because of comtaminated ground water and sea waters surrounding japan due to nuke reactors leaks that's much more severe than the gutless and callous japanese government cared to admit.
even some soldiers on a us aircraft carrier are suing japan for hundreds of millions of dollars for health damages.
Interesting point. Re US aircraft carriers - why do they spend so much time in Japanese waters?? Does not make sense - is there a military threat to the USA in Japan??
Good One.
as war victor, the us has be stationing troops and bases all over japan and all these 73 years.ie., japan today is not an independent country.
funny that you didn't notice it.
I did not notice this fact in Germany as well - I was there for 3 months recently. When will Germany and Japan allowed to be be "free" again?? Is that the reason why both Germany and Japan are forced to buy $ treasury bills to help the USA finance the huge fiscal deficit?? Poor China is having to do the same. But, China was not conquered by the USA. Or was it?? I must admit that the Russians seem to be much more liberal - they have removed their troops from all the countries that they conquered. I am currently in Central Asia, where Russia is very popular, and Western countries (including the USA) are trying to do business deals. However, the favorite countries here are the Turks and the Russians - also the French and the Germans. Great places - much fun.
United States Seventh Fleet (HQ Yokosuka, Japan) covers the West Pacific.
There is a fleet based in Naples,Italy covering Europe and one based in Bahrain covering the ME.
Thank you for the clarification. However, I was confused by the comments made by "kommonsenses" - please see above. He sated that "as a war victor", the USA has the right to "stationing troops and bases all over japan". I was feeling badly for the defeated countries (e.g., Japan, Germany, Bahrain, etc.). Surely there has to be an expiry date to the "rights of the victor"?? No wonder there is so much anti-American sentiments globally, particularly in Asia. The arrogance of military power!!!
Pearl Harbor might be the reason
No other country has taken on the role of taking care of the health needs of people who aren't even US citizens. Over 20 million illegals receive health care for free, they over burden the emergency rooms which is the most expensive delivery system.
Coupled with a tort system that allows Trial attorneys to remove $400 Billion a year from the health care system.
I think your point about trial lawyers is by far the most important. Sure they suck 400 billion directly. But more important they force medical doctors into a race to accumulate enough money to buy the incredibly expensive libel insurance and to call for every conceivable test and procedure that can produce a cast iron butt plate against law suits. This is the difference. In other countries the legal cartel are kept in their cages.
Wrong. Most european countries hospitals are taking care of illigal immigrants.
An illigal immigrant is taking in charge by the AMU if he lives in France since 3 months and don't have living with less than 500€/month. 170 000 people are concerned here.
If an illigal immigrant isn't registered in the AMU, hospitals will still take care of urgents problems (accident, hearth attack, etc).
Everything paid by taxpayers. (some illigal immigrant are paying tax too)
All -at least- western european countries are providing urgent care and are providing some preventive and common care too. Germany is special because civil servants have to report illigal immigrants to the police, so they will go to the hospital only if their life is in danger.
Really 20 million people? Citation on that.
Not just that 20 million people could theoretically avail themselves of emergency rooms which don't check immigration status.
Second, 400 billion dollars? Once again where is that number coming from?
That's the number of illegals living in the US, there are another 10 million that are legally here and are supposed to be paying for their own care but don't and dump the bill on the US taxpayers.
$400 Billion was a Harvard study that looks at the impact that trial lawyers have on the cost of healthcare. It includes defensive medicine that 25% of all medical tests are unneeded but done to prevent lawsuits, that 20% of hospital admissions are not needed but done to protect the doctor from lawyers. Then there is the cost of malpractice insurance that runs from $40,000 a year for a GP to $150,000 for a specialist. Then there are the frivolous lawsuits that get huge awards John Edwards is the poster boy for that nonsense and became a multi millionaire using that technique
t's not true I've been to Europe and was sick. There was NO FREE care you were asked how did you plan to pay for the care unfront. No $$$ no help
Europe has one health system. True story.
The only "Harvard Study" I could find was this one.
"Study finds that combined costs of medical malpractice & 'defensive medicine' comprise only 2.4% of US health care costs"
Not the 400 billion you state. Please give a link.
Where and when in Europe ? How sick ? Of course, if you have a cold and enough money to take care of yourself, doctors will give you a bill. European health systems are not *free*. Most of the time you have to pay. Then the social security give you back all or a part of your money.
Only urgent cares don't follow this rule or for some part of the population.
Social security is only for residents, not tourists.
Far far diffrent that what happens in the US where everyone is covered no matter their status
Really??? EVERYONE is covered? I didn't know the US had a "socialist" health care system... Hush, don't tell the Republicans...
Its the law of the land show up at any emergency room for ANYTHING and you must be treated. Socialist?? No its just called stick the hospitals and let them figure it out. Pretty much how everything Dems do is done this way.
If you're referring to emergencies, please note that no hospital in the developed world will deny access. It is basic notion of civilized behaviour.
The US has a significant rural population so I wonder if the fact that millions live many miles from a trauma center has a major effect on the accidental injury death rate. Not so many doctors out there in sparsely populated areas either. Also the weather can get pretty severe, much worse than the UK for example. Also people drive a lot more than in many European countries.
Anyway, at least we're not Denmark or Finland:-)
Severe weather? Ever bin in Finland or Australia?
Rural population? Compared to Australia or Canada?
The complete denial of every study which claims, that the U.S. are not #1 in every given field of economy, military, science or arts, is the main reason the U.S. lags behind.
The only ones which can destroy the american dream are the U.S. citizens for themselves.
to Doctor Mabuse on those who can destroy the American dream are the American citizenry
Very, very true!
Any historian knows that all civilizations are born, grow to a zenith and enter decadence.
One of the first preludes of decadence is the unawareness of not being nº1 any longer.
Gibbon supports you when he studied the decline of Rome and R. Vailland, a French writer (and communist of all things!) coined the term "to Portugalize" to explain the decadence of Britain and France in the fifties.
As Portugal in the 18th century, Britain and France did not pay attention the world was developing far faster than them.
Hope American citizens realize that before it is too late.
The world still needs the combination of original American ideals with their still great might.
In fact, strange as it might seem, Australia is one of the most urbanized countries in the world (ie, the highest fraction of the population living in urban areas); according to Wikipedia, among "major countries", only Belgium, Venezuela, Uruguay, Israel, Argentina and Japan have higher urbanization rates.
Sorry to those who live in Singapore, Kuwait, etc, for not counting them as a "major country".
Thank you for this information! I have to admit, that my view of Australia depends on "Riptide", "Mad Max" and "Crocodile Dundee" (and this strange film with the girls near Ayers Rock).
Have you ever been to Canada?
unfortunately 1/2 of the American population are nothing more than bottom feeders and are incapable of ever really being 'americans"
to mandinka1 who wrote 1/2 of the American population are nothing more than bottom feeders and are incapable of ever really being 'americans"
Having criss-crossed 4/5 of the World for almost my whole life, I've found humankind is monotonously similar everywhere.
It's only a peculiar combination of geographic and historical conditions that make some cultures look and be different for a while.
Probably the share of bottom feeders in many countries is not much different from those in the USA I know so well and love so much.
And for the time being is still one of the most civilized nations on Earth and definitely the most advanced. It may not last forever but that's true now.
Just incidentally, I'm not a US citizen although I've spent so much time there I believe at one time I could have qualified.
I'm as European as they come.
Might need their might,might not.
Abu Ghraib wll be seen as the fulcrum where all moral authority was perceived to have gone,AAA ratings,next and finally overtaken by China in GDP.
It may retain the military edge a while longer depends how many Americans will volunteer to die in the inevitable decline of all would be hegemonists.
I really don't get your severe weather discussion. I'm originally from Finnish Lapland, and after one winter in Calgary Canada, Finnish weather is mild.
But I don't see any relevance in this discussion.
As to Finnish "effective health care system", it's hardly a role model; The Finnish public health care system has gone down to drains. Wait for a month for a doctor - trainee - immigrant, who's in a hurry dealing with you within 2 minutes. That can make one go get totally waisted with alcohol and injure oneself. ;-)
It's inappropriate to compare the United States with ethnically homogenous countries. It ought to be compared to other colonial nations with large populations of people from totally different cultures and ways of life (former slaves and immigrants from developing countries). I believe the US would compare quite well to Brazil or South Africa.
Very true indeed.
Would you not rather compare to countries with similar levels of resources?
I mean, I agree that the US are going for Third World levels of public amenities, with the concomitant effects on infrastructure, education, health and life expectancy, but would you not rather try to reverse that, rather than shifting the goal posts?
You did notice that Canada is in there, right? Doing way better than the US? And why should ethnic heterogeneity make health care more expensive and less 'productive'? Are you suggesting that it's more expensive to effectively treat people from different ethnicities because their diseases are so different that the US can't achieve economies of scale and other efficiencies in health care delivery? That's almost as absurd as Connect the Dots's post.
OK - then compare the United States with Australia. Both countries are essentially migrant populations from all over the world over the last 200-300 years. Australia has even a higher percentage of overseas born residents than the US.
Oops - it makes the US look even worse.
But then again Australia has a socialist medical system, and better dead than red.
Your comment, rephrased, "The US has brown people and they're dragging us down. But if you compare us to other countries who are afflicted with brown people we do quite well."
It's racist.
Of course different ethnic groups have different medical needs. Besides the US has over 1 million abortions a year that impact the longevity numbers
Racist?? The facts don't lie when 12% of the population accounts for 38% of those on welfare, when 12% of the population has 80% of their births with no father, when 12% of the population accounts for 40% of the AIDS cases
"Besides the US has over 1 million abortions a year that impact the longevity numbers"
Life expectancy is calculated from birth. Abortion does not impact the numbers in any way.
I never said they don't have different medical needs - I don't know if they do or don't. I just don't see why that should 'explain' the US spending so much more per capita on health care. And if it were true, it would also be true of Canada and Australia, and much of Europe as many countries there have considerable ethnic diversity too. Rationalizing this argument with 'objective data' (your second post) IS rationalizing racism, whether you like it or not.
How does it matter the composition of the population collecting welfare? You are implying that people on welfare cost the health care system more - that would be true no matter what their ethnicity. How does it matter if children are born with no father (by the way, I'm sure that's not exactly what you mean)? How does that make their health care more expensive? Kids without fathers are sick more? And I'm sure someone who knows better than I can pick apart your statement about AIDS. Maybe they cost more for a shorter period, but don't live as long? And the bigger argument you're trying to justify is that '12% of the population' somehow explains a nearly doubling of health care spending as compared to other countries, including ones with very similar ethnic compositions. It just doesn't add up.
I'm not implying anything I'm stating a fact. You think its by accident that babies having babies isn't a drag on our economy and healthcare?? They disportionately are drug addicts, involved in crime and murder.
What other European country has similar ethnic compositions?? There aren't any. Regarding healthcare expenditures you have this 12% problem population 20 million illegals all receiving free healthcare and trial lawyers robbing the system of $400B a year
Your not trying to compare the quality of healthcare provided in the US with that provided in the EU or Canada are you?? I've never seen anyone from the US traveling to Europe or Canada for medical care but we have plane loads every day from the EU and Canada coming here.
Only the US has 20 million illegals living here and receiving free medical care. What European country has anything close??
You should do some research on medical tourism. In 2008 between 60,000 and 85,000 foreigners came to the USA for medical treatment. 750,000 Americans went abroad for medical treatment in the sae period.
There are more than 100,000 Canadians that come to the US every year for major surgery. Then there is the 20 million illegals. The only reason why americans go else where for care is the long wait time for organs. In the EU and far east organs go to the highest bidder.
Americans going to Mexico for drugs hardly qualifies as a "healthcare"
Mandinka, no, I'm not comparing the quality of healthcare in those places. Never said I was. The article here is about quality of health of Americans (and others) as compared to healthcare spending. By the data (as you like to do), you guys are in poor shape. Just admit it, your system doesn't work very well. So, if you have 20 million illegals getting free health care (say, about 6.5% of your population, not 12%), then your health care system should be costing about 6.5% more than others - so why is it nearly double? Every country has illegals - maybe not at the scale of the US. Every country has drug addicts and criminals - maybe not at the scale of the US. But even if you take account of the numbers for these, you can't rationalize a health care system costing nearly twice the others in this comparison (as a share of GDP, when by the way, your GDP per capita is higher than most to start with by a long shot, with the exception of Switzerland and Norway).
But nice attempt to divert from the original argument. That usually means only one thing.
Can you offer any citations to support your figure?
I'll give mine: http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/25/health-hospitals-care-forbeslife-cx_avd...
That's a pro-American healthcare article citing a McKinsey & Co study that found 60,000 to 85,000 people come to the USA every year for the primary purpose of getting healthcare. Of those, "38% from Latin America, 35% from the Middle East, 16% from Europe and 7% from Canada".
The people coming to the USA for surgery are primarily affluent people from developing countries who are willing to pay a premium for what they perceive as the best health care in the world. These people are generally not going to common American hospitals; they are going to the Mayo Clinic.
In the Southwest, tens of thousands of Americans routinely go to Mexico for dental care and routine treatment because the prices are roughly one-third of what they are in the USA and even less for dental care. There is an emerging trend in southern California of more and more companies giving their workers insurance that requires them to go to Mexico for treatment.
Americans definitely do go abroad for organ transplants, but they more commonly go abroad for the sake of receiving treatments and even surgeries at the fraction of the cost they would have at the USA. You can get a coronary bypass in Thailand for only $12,000. Even if you go to Germany for surgery instead of the USA and have no coverage (because you are a foreigner) the price would typically be around 50% of the price in the USA.
I am not saying that the American healthcare system is low quality, but for most procedures and ailments it is not any more effective than the hospitals in other developed countries and the prices are much higher. The rich are able to get access to cutting edge treatment with some of the world's best specialists at places like the Mayo Clinic. The poor generally only have access to the emergency room. The people in the middle have care comparable to Western Europe as long as they have access to health insurance. If they don't, traveling abroad for cheaper health care is a rational decision.
"about 6.5% of your population, not 12%"
The 12% Mandinka was referring to was blacks.
Every country has a black population of 12%??? The US healthcare system could certainly be improved but unlike the EU care isn't rationed. I lived in Detroit a few years and every morning as I sat in the Renaissance towers you would see the steady stream of ambulances going thru the tunnel bringing Canadians to the US for major surgery such as heart by pass, liver transplants etc.
I've never heard anyone say I'm going to the EU for medical care but I hear it all the time when I travel that "i've been to the US for treatment for .....
The US ILLEGAL population is more than Sweden Switzerland Denmark Finland and Norway COMBINED. I would hardly gloat about the level of care provided in the EU since it's a losing battle for you
The source you offered McKinsey and Co has Chelsie Clinton on the board of directors so I would hardly consider them to be a 1st rate consulting company. They contend that 80% of the Fortune 500 companies work with them but they don't provide a list...strange.
The main difference between the US healthcare system and Europe and Canada health care isn't rationed. There is no "list" to get on and wait. That's why so many come here rather than waiting. As for cost yep no question that our costs are higher. Quality care and diagnostic equipment costs $$. Then you have to factor in all the "free" care that Hospitals are required to provide and they pass those costs onto those who are insured, and then trial lawyers costing the system $400B a year. That in a snap shot is the US problem
If you are so filled with your own crap that you refuse to acknowledge any study that goes against your pre-conceived notions, there is not really much room to talk. Only the quoted component above came from McKinsey and Co.
You need to recognize that medical tourism is an international business. Millions of people around the world travel for access to treatment and there are more people in the USA traveling abroad for access to more economical treatments than there are wealthy foreigners coming to the USA for access luxurious elective treatments.
It should be pointed out that rationing is definitely a component of the UK's NHS and other fully socialist systems; but most European countries (France, Germany, Italy, etc.) have multipayer systems that do not government rationing. Germany and the Netherlands are well known for quick access (quicker than the USA) to elective surgeries. The USA obviously does have waiting lists, but only 4% of people need to wait for more than 6 months for elective surgeries (compared to 15% in Canada). This is partially because around 20% of patients in the USA cannot afford to even follow their doctor's orders (get the surgery or buy the medicine he recommended). The USA's healthcare system- not counting the emergency room (and every developed country gives injured people access to the emergency room)- only treats a much smaller portion of our population than the healthcare systems of other developed countries.
Part of the reason why the USA has so many lawsuits against our system is that medical errors are more prevalent in the USA than in other developed countries. This is connected to the fact that compared to western european countries (which have a wide variety of healthcare systems) we have 1. shorter visits with doctors 2. We are less likely to have a regular physician. 3. There is less penetration of electronic records (this is the most unforgivable).
The articles you quoted said NOTHING about medical tourism with millions traveling for care. That's nothing more than a load of BULL trying to embellish your case.
Your wrong about more US citizens traveling abroad than foreigners coming here...the more you go on the worse you look.
Once again another nonsense claim that every country gives care to those who show up at emergency rooms. Try going to an emergency room in Germany with a cold a slight temp, sprained ankle.
No the reason why there are sooooo many medical lawsuits is their are far too many trial lawyers going after the lottery. In Germany, Canada England who ever you list as your favorites have a loser pays system. So ONLY cases that are beyond reasonable doubt ever make it to the system.
As for wait times for care I'm not sure of your sources but its a made up number
Yes, that article I quoted did not say anything about medical tourism as an international industry. You could look at this article: http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Americans-look-abroad-to-save-on-...
But I advise you to look for yourself on google or wikipedia.
I also advise you to look at this article so you have a better idea about the actual healthcare systems in other countries and you stop making a false dichotomy between the American system (which isn't even a real system) and the systems in Canada or the UK: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/mod...
For wait times, you could look at http://www.oecd.org/eco/productivityandlongtermgrowth/35028282.pdf
But I'll just give the main idea: The USA and countries with the Bismark model of healthcare (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, Japan) have minimal waiting time. Countries using the Beveridge model or the National Health Insurance model do have waiting times. For some types of procedures, Germany has a marginally lower waiting time.
A slight fever and a sprained ankle is not an emergency and you shouldn't be going to the ER for that. The fact that some Americans use the ER for primary care is a symptom of the fact that 50 million Americans (not even counting the illegals that are close in number to 12 million than 20) don't have access to primary care. You can't just blame that all on the brown people.
There have been numerous studies done on whether loser pays system actually reduces frivolous law suits, and it has been experimented with in some counties in Florida and Alaska, no conclusion has been made. In Germany, for example, you can get legal insurance that will cover your losses if you lose. There are definitely trial lawyers going after the big medicine money, but it is also a reality that American hospitals really do make more mistakes.
I have relatives (brother, two cousins, and an aunt) and numerous friends working in the American medical industry, they all agree the system is broken and needs to be fixed. I live abroad and travel frequently and I am certainly not afraid of foreign hospitals. If the American system doesn't get fixed, I'll be one of the many Americans (when and if I return to the states) who engages in medical tourism.
This isn't about socialism vs. capitalism. This is about the fact that the American system isn't even free market; it's just a mess designed to maximize profits. You are worried about rationing, we already have rationing. 50 million Americans don't have access to health insurance and no person who isn't rich can afford to pay for emergencies out of pocket. It should bother you that everyone else is stuck with the cost when poor people use the emergency room.
So out it comes. Health care in US is first rate. OK. Meanwhile the health of Americans is among the lowest in the compared countries, by the indicators presented. And America spends more on health care (as a share of its GDP) than any other country. Something doesn't add up. Blaming blacks and illegals doesn't cut it. Blaming health care 'tourists' hardly helps your argument. Canada has 'quality care' too - the issue is it takes longer to get. No argument. That's why some (and it's a small number) Canadians travel to US for health care. The health care Canada does have is just as good as US, using the same expensive diagnostic equipment, etc. And Canadian hospitals can't pass on the costs of the free care they provide to anybody else. The system in Canada just works better. That's all there is to it. The only part of your argument that makes any sense is the cost of the trial lawyers. In other words, US healthcare system is expensive BECAUSE it's private and profit-based, which opens it up to the legal and insurance profit abuses. There is no need for a rich country to spend that much on health care while leaving so many people in poorer health than they would be in a public system. Americans could ALL be better off, not just a few.
Sometimes I've got the feeling that these charts compare apples to... watermelons. It is predictable that in countries where there is few young people and children, the death toll related to injuries tend to be smaller. No surprise European countries an Japan show better results than America then.
The figures are age-standardised (to the world standard population, I assume), which should remove the effect of age in these comparisons.
I agree completely. The U.S. has a population of 312 million. And yet, we still beat the Danes with a population of six million. (It must be all of those open sandwiches and butter cookies.)
Another issue about the high costs in the U.S. most Europeans don't know about is malpractice. I have a family member who is a doctor and they pay $16 thousand dollars per year for only 1 million dollars in malpractice insurance. This is a small amount actually, whereas surgeons can pay $50 thousand dollars per year to insure their practice.
This malpractice also causes "defensive medicine" which is when doctors will order many unneccesary tests for something very minor that they believe may have a slight chance of being an illness in order to prevent themselves from being sued. These two issues could result in a decrease of $50-650 billion in savings it has been estimated which would bring the U.S. down a few percentage points. Also two issues which Obamacare failed to address.
Thirdly, medical school is not free or near free as it is in Europe. The typical medical school in the U.S. is four years after undergraduate (which can cost from 100k-250k or more in loans) and every year medical shcool costs around $40-50 thousand dollars.
So a medical student may be making $150-250 thousand when they are fully doctors around 30 but they can also be paying off half a million in loans.
Finally, medical costs are rising for all countries, the U.S. used to be the only country spending over 10% of GDP, now the majority are.
Guess what, in China, those "malpractice" money was paid by patients. That is, patients want to be well treated, then they must and sometimes have to pay doctors a private fee, we call that"好处费"or"红包"which means some sort of bribe. It is a custom in China, no one would charge a doctor receiving this fee.However, if this doctor doesn't receive this fee, he would intentionally do something wrong to the patient,such as do nothing about your wound after your surgery or even leave his or her scapel into your body.
So compared with China, I think the malpractice fee in America is such a little payment.
Malpractice in the U.S. is not the same as in China. Malpractice is an insurance that doctors buy themselves in order to have coverage in case one of their patients sue them for something. A patient would sue a doctor if they accidentally missed a correct diagnosis and the patient became very ill as a result or they performed surgery wrong. Doctors in the U.S. do not receive bribes as you say they do their job well and honestly.
"if this doctor doesn't receive this fee, he would intentionally do something wrong to the patient,such as do nothing about your wound after your surgery or even leave his or her scapel into your body"
I find that hard to believe. Sounds a lot more like urban legend type things.
This doesn't happen all the time, but the mistrust between patients and doctors is very significant in China. It is also not uncommon that many doctors like to prescribe expensive medications so that they can gain more commission from the pharmaceutical companies, or expensive (but unnecessary) scanning procedures. It is horrible but true.
"It is also not uncommon that many doctors like to prescribe expensive medications so that they can gain more commission from the pharmaceutical companies, or expensive (but unnecessary) scanning procedures. It is horrible but true."
There is definitely greater trust between doctors and patients in the USA than China, but the practice of overprescribing medication is also extremely prevalent in the USA and probably many other countries. The distinctive Chinese form of this is prescribing unnecessary antibiotic IV drips to girls who come in with minor fevers. The distinctive American form is loading up schoolchildren with psychotropic drugs.
DaveyCool, I've been through a Chinese hospital in 2007. It cost 1000 RMB to get into a bed, I had my bone set three times without painkillers, and only got surgery 5 hours later once we had assured the hospital that their money was forthcoming.
I wouldn't say "intentionally doing something wrong." But "foregoing painkillers," that happens.
Sounds like the US, except we're more gullible and many blindly trust their doctor.
"The distinctive Chinese form of this is prescribing unnecessary antibiotic IV drips to girls who come in with minor fevers."
Now that's a national or international health disaster in the making. Antibiotic immune bacteria anyone?
"The distinctive Chinese form of this is prescribing unnecessary antibiotic IV drips to girls who come in with minor fevers."
My (Chinese) father-in-law was fond of anti-biotics. He would call his (American) doctor at the first sign of a sniffle -- he was in his mid-90's -- and his doctor would simply prescribe him some course of oral anti-biotic over the phone without even seeing the patient. I think it had more of a placebo effect than anything... very likely his sniffles would have been viral in nature.
One year I counted 5 courses of various types of anti-biotic (what a crazy doctor, the pharmacist at our neighbourhood Walgreens thought it too). He died the next year when a full specturm IV drip anti-biotic wouldn't help him, no matter what. I think my father-in-law had backed himself into a corner, infection-wise.
We need to scare the general population into understanding that all they are doing when taking unnecessary anti-biotics is to weaken their future ability (and everyone else's) to fight off germs.
"I wouldn't say "intentionally doing something wrong." But "foregoing painkillers," that happens."
Was that before or after the medical staff found out your utter contempt for Mainland things? Maybe it's just payback for your comments on TE... they are Big Brother.
Just kidding. How did you break your arm? Get into a bar fight over how good Taiwan's health care is when compared to Mainland hospitals?
Still kidding.
Anyway, I'm not sure the free-market is the proper mechanism for a health care system. For one thing medical services can be rather demand-inelastic. Irrationality also creeps in to the decision making process -- trying anything, even anti-biotics fo viral infectons is an example.
I didn't have a particular opinion about Taiwan's healthcare back then. But it was a shocker to find out that the capitalist side fo the Civil War had socialized medicine while the communists held me in the hospital for five days and wouldn't let me out until my check cleared.
They've made a lot of strides since then insurance wise, but it's still after market compensation. So a person going to the doctor still needs thousands in cash which the insurance company will then reimburse.
I broke my arm playing Rugby.
I don't have utter contempt for the mainland. I have contempt for their lack of accountability and the conceit that they are self evidently the best government for China.
Let me discuss a few issues that don't get much ink. If you have a badly degenerated hip joint here, you get a replacement in a few days. Then the other probably. Likely from too much running or walking when younger. The wages of healthful living. But where else would you not have to suffer for (maybe) years before it's your turn? So, if you have to spend that time in terrible pain, unable to walk much, what good is that longer life-span? And it was likely diagnosed with an MRI machine. It's often said we have just too many of these; as many in Atlanta as Canada is quoted a lot. They are not just very expensive to buy, they are very costly to operate. They must be kept warmed-up drawing much electricity because it takes about one day to go from cold to operable, must have a technician present to be ready to run it, maybe a specialist to interpret the results. They also put x-rays in the shade for the volume of information they provide. So, are we ready to go back to x-rays as an economy? And try to imagine supporting their (MRI and CAT Scanners) development within the system of the single payer. For luxuries quickly become necessities if they have real value. And yes, a large percentage of patient's problems could be addressed by a 'doctor' who studied maybe four years, on-line. That would lower costs a lot. Or maybe a good doctor is really worth, say, 250k / year.
Maybe this is a little surprise, but we have MRI Scanners in Germany and you get a new hip in an few weeks (with no extra pay). As a physician: MRI can do good and harm, more MRI is not better medicine, quite the opposite.
And if the number of highly sophisticated medical technology really matters, why are you on the last place?
Very good. So if your's fails, how far to the next one? Do the results of these tests strongly affect your decisions? Is money spend on them backing away money that could have otherwise saved lives? And truly, could they have been developed in a system of single-payer? Why we are in last place is a question that especially a doctor should know requires volumes.
What % of Germany's population is black and Hispanic?? That will answer all your questions. As for wait time, Dr you live in lala and if you think you can get a hip replacement in Germany in a couple of weeks. Sounds like your out of touch with your patients
Hispanics in the USA have a longer life expectancy than the whites. They aren't a problem here. Germany has guest workers from Turkey or elsewhere that fill a similar role to the hispanic migrants and they have healthcare coverage (and not just access to the emergency room).
The UK and Canada have long wait time. Germany doesn't. In fact, it is well known for its short wait times on elective surgery.
Utter nonsense when you look at areas with poor healthcare outcomes in the US the primary population is black and browns. The fact that 20 MILLION demand free care is a HUGE problem.
Germany may not have a long wait time by EU standards but it is triple the US wait times. That's how they ration care
You are just making stuff up now. Look up life expectancies. Hispanic Americans live longer than white Americans. Yeah, it is a huge problem that many people in the USA, illegal and legal, cannot afford to receive medical treatment until it escalates to an emergency. Every developed country gives people access to the emergency room. That's not something for the USA to brag about.
Germany does not have longer wait times than the USA and there is no government rationing of healthcare. Its a multipayer system consisting of government mandated not for profit health insurance funds paid into by both the employees and employers.
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subset: commoncrawl


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Summer School Papers
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CGRD224Visual Design for Interactive Media
CGRD241Computer Graphic Design 1
CGRD242Computer Graphic Design 2
CGRD252Studies in Visual Communication
COMP200Computer Systems
COMP202Computer Communications
COMP203Programming with Data Structures
COMP204Object-Oriented Program Design
COMP219Database Practice and Experience
COMP221Introduction to 3D Modelling and Animation
COMP223Information Discovery
COMP224Visual Design for Interactive Media
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20 Points
This paper is a practical study of computer graphic design principles; covering topics such as graphic design techniques, typography, colour, digital images, designing for computer displays and the web.
Pre Requisite PapersOne of: CGRD161 Effective Visual Communication or COMP104 Introduction to Computer Science 1 or COMP126 Computing Media
Restricted PapersCGRD241 Computer Graphic Design 1 CGRD242 Computer Graphic Design 2
A Semester
Moodle LinkCOMP224-14A
TimetableThe class consists of one 2-hour lecture, labs, private reading time and assignments.
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Recommended ReadingThe Principles of Beautiful Web Design (2nd Edition) by Jason Beaird ISBN: 978-0-9805768-9-4
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University RegulationsYour attention is drawn to the following regulations and policies, which are published in the University Calendar:


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