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A huge intensive for Japan to keep diplomatic relation with S.Korea? I dont think so.
If any of the posters here take a look at the Korean demonstrators and compare them with the anti-Japanese Chinese demonstrators, one will notice a stark difference. Most of the Chinese demonstrators are young, which is similar to Indonesia (where most demonstrators are young), the only difference is the Chinese haven't resorted to through feces at the Japanese embassy yet. In contrast most of the Korean demonstrators are middle aged or old. Many of them are vets. That also fits the profile of the anti-North Korean demonstrators also.
Also, the demonstrations in Korea are smaller, tend to focus on the Japanese Embassy. Where are the young South Korean demonstrators? Too busy working, studying. In Japan too, right wing demonstrators tend to be old guys.
ah Bismarck buddy
'Too busy working, studying.'
that kind of explains why no good four-bit comment-bugs like me and you are hanging out here so much, me bashing japanese war crimes and you taking pot shots at them chinese.
that's right, 'no phone, no pool, no pets. I ain't got no cigarettes...' and no job too (have you got a job? I sure don't), but just a hand me down iPAD and quote-worn wikipedia to roam around and bashing about.
what a life. king of the road of internet, or parasite of it?
I do have a job, right now I am on a bit of break (its kinda of slow at work). I wanted to take pot shots at South Koreans, but I come here and I find Chinese. I find it funny that there is an age difference between protestors in Korea and China. But the protest in South Korea against the Japanese to be frank was muted, compared to what happened after Yeonpyeong shelling
I know you like to point out how bad the Japanese were. But let's be frank, the PRC government does not want to get involved or gang on Japan with ROK/Russia over territorial disputes with Japan (yet) or try to jointly seek an apology with South Korea over Japan's wartime past. Korea's territorial disputes with Japan are between them and does not involve China. So does any dispute regarding Japan's wartime history is between those two countries. Does it rally concern China?
Germany did not apologize to all the people of Europe, it apologized to individual countries and peoples separately. Each country / people are different. That is why I have been saying about Korea, but you take it as me being an apologist for Japan. Just say Japan is a serial criminal, it rapes and murders a whole family (china), then it goes into another house and turns the people into slaves and lives in it for 30 years (Korea). Do you try the case as one or separately? They are different crimes, one being more severe than the other.
While Japan most likely will eventually apologize to China and others for its WW2 crimes, but I doubt it would apologize to Korea for its 30 year occupation. It won't. That is why I don't think its wise for anyone to start bundling all the Japanese war crimes and demand an apology, that is what you are trying to do here. Germany apologize to the Dutch, Jew etc separately. Germany has not apologized (offered regret) for its genocide in Namibia in 1904, which was worse than what the Japanese did in Korea. Because they are African, they don't matter as much I guess.
Justice is not putting a person in a room with all his victim and hearing them denounce him for everything he did under the Sun, then have him grovel and beg for mercy before you. That is what the Red Guards used to do, its not justice.
We are tired of these propaganda.Please know the truth.
Endangered Japan (Book 2): Sex, Lies, and Comfort Women
The Fake of Nanking Massacre-1(English and Japanese)
but who'd believe that? and what difference do they make now.
the real thing is that japanese are now what they called 'wang guo lu' or '亡国奴' in chinese or japanese, meaning folks of no real country.
japan is not an independent country anymore. blame no one but japanese imperialism and the 'sky emperor' that did japan in.
Yes, we are tired of the Japanese propaganda that is fed to its good people. Why dont you tell them the truth, that Nanking Massacre and comfort women were real.
Nazi Germany still alive in Japan!! That is why your beautiful culture is becoming more depraved day by day, your most beautiful women are marrying foreign men (or being submitted to do porn), your competent old generation is being replaced by very incompetent youth.
You realize there were more than a few outside observers of Japanese actions in Naking at the time? Including Germans?
There isn't any question over whether massacres took place, it is more a question of scale.
you are saying "Because japan had imperialism, accept any lies"?
sorry my poor english.
Report of the British Embassy and the Embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany are based on allhearsay.And There were no evidence to show the massacre of Nanking in China has submitted.
sorry my poor english
I do not deny the existence of comfort women. There are advertisements to recruit comfort women, the amount of salary has been written on it.
sorry my poor english.
If you do not deny the existance of comfort woman, and so dearly want evidence for Japan's offenses, then I think it is fair for Japan to provide evidence for actual recruitment of comfort women. An advertisement does not mean Japan actually recruited any women. What we know and there is evidence and testimony is that the Japanese army forcefully came into villages and abducted women to be forced into sex slavery. The sick Japanese army were particularly looking for underage virgins, just like the ones you look for in your pornography of school girls.
what is the evidence shows the japanese army forcefully abducted women?
Ajpn in reply to kommonsensesSep 10th, 18:21
'you are saying "Because japan had imperialism, accept any lies"?
sorry my poor english.'?
NO. you should be SORRY for your non-repentance instead.
your english or japlish, whatever, is ok. and don't let that 'sorry' to deter you from posting, even though I think you are so wrong.
Well, something like this is hard to prove right? But what I can tell you is that there are women in Korea, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Taiwan, Thailand, all claiming that the Japanese army forcefully abducted women. This is more than just a coincidence and you cannot call that many people liars. Plus there are public records of girls missing during Japanese occupation missing. Why would a family claim their girl is missing if they were not forcefully gone into prostitution. To add, you have all the pictures and evidence from Japanese occupation, of thousand of women being raped. Like the link I am attaching you.
I think that makes my case.
Your turn. Provide YOUR evidence that women were not forced into sex slavery. Since you have ackowledged the existence of comfort women, if you cannot prove they were not forced into this job, then we can conclude that your army did forcefully do this.
This would make you ancestors a bunch of pervs, just like the pedophiliacs that live in your country presently.
There you go again.
Nanjing and comfort women are lies. Historians can easily prove them. That makes your analogy between Nazi and Japan also a lie.
US government put Japanese Americans in concentration camps and took away their assets. Would that make US Nazi as well?
Yes. I think so.
You must remember Kamikaze very well. If you abuse the Japanese, they will fight back fiercely.
About Nanjing ... here is a proof that it is a lie.
On May 9-14, 1938 (six month after so-called Nanjing massacre), League of Nations held 101st Council Session in Geneva. In this session, Chinese Nationalist Government complained about Japanese bombing of Chinese civilians and use of nerve gas.
You can check the agenda yourself.
Where the hell is the massacre? The Chinese did not bring it up because ...
It simply did not happen!
Your remark simply indicates that comfort women were forcefully gone into the Comfort Place by someone.It is not indicates the japanese army forcefully abducted women.
when there is no evidence shows the japanese army forcefully abducted women,it is natural that japanese army did not.
[AjpnSep 10th, 15:28
We are tired of these propaganda.Please know the truth.
Endangered Japan (Book 2): Sex, Lies, and Comfort Women
The Fake of Nanking Massacre-1(English and Japanese)
We are tired of the nuclear bombing propaganda too:
[Makoto.Grolsch1615 wrote:
Jun 10th 2011 5:14 GMT
Dear Devil's,
The reason why Japan went to Vietnam,with the consent of Vichy French govt., was to cut off the supply route to China. ]
THAT proved that Militarist Japan was the same kind of colonial power as Vichy France.
[Japan wanted to end the conflict with China but the US, French, and UK were supporting China.]
If Militarist Japan really wanted to "end the conflict with China", all that it needed to do is to go back to where they belong, that is the Islands of Japan. The fact that it continued its invasion and occupation of Chinese and Korean territories was proof that the militarists wanted war.
[ What those countries did was against international law and eventually escalated to Hull's note (which was basically a declaration of war) and Pearl Harbor.]
It was Militarist Japan that was against international law. That was why there was an INTERNATIONAL coalition among China and "the US, French, and UK" that fought against it.
[When Singapore fell to the Japanese, it gave a lot of hope for the SE Asians who had been under European control. A few years later, when the Europeans tried to come back they fought hard and gained independence.]
When Singapore fell to the Japanese, they conduct massacres on the resident population, which otherwise might have supported them. Thus the Japanese turned the residents against them and made them support the European colonialists. In other words, the Japanese were 10 times worse than the European colonialists. Japanese massacres were conduct all over East and South East Asia and against people of all ethnic backgrounds:
[Japanese agreeing to Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Never did and never will.]
The rest of the world never agreed to Japan annexation of Korea and never will. History has proved so. History have also PROVED that Japan accepted the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Otherwise, Japan would have counter-nuked the perpetrators.
[ Also, Japan did not surrender unconditionally. They accepted the Potsdam Declaration. There is a big difference.]
Unconditional surrender was part of the Potsdam Declaration:
The "big difference" is that you are a professional denier and a bad liar.
[I saw something about 731 when I visited the "Anti-Japanese" museum near Marc O'polo Bridge in Beijing. I don't believe anything Chinese say. Their history is 99% fabrication. ]
Japanese deniers' version of history is 100% fabrication. Only they believe in their own propaganda.
[None of those pictures would stand up as hard evidence. The Americans use it to justify their war crimes. Hiroshima and Nagasaki did really happen. That's one of the biggest "crime against humanity" I could think of.]
"Hiroshima and Nagasaki did really happen" and they were the handiworks of Unit 731.
[SE Asia doesn't like the Chinese but South China sea is controlled by China. East China sea, Sea of Japan, and The Pacific will be the hot spot for the next 10 years.]
Like it or not, The South China Sea was controlled by China through out much of history until the expansion of the Europeans.
[I insist that Japan is getting a bad deal with the US.]
Why should anyone else cares?
[ You complete underestimate the cost of not being an independent nuclear nation. The Americans only have the tendency to dominate.]
That's why China, and even North Korea, became a nuclear power as soon as it could. ;-), ;-),...
Showing repentance don't contradicts telling the truth.
[Ajpnin reply to kommonsenses9 mins ago
Showing repentance don't contradicts telling the truth.]
There is as much "truth" in the denial of the atom-bombings as in the denials of Nanking Massacre, comfort women,..
You better get used to it.
[Mike Tyson reply to Devils 11th, 06:55
You better get used to it.]
It is YOU and Japan that have to get use to it. China and Korea are on the rise while Japan and its sugar daddy are in decline. Poetic justice is finally in sight!
You merely says that all bad by bringing up a negative side. This is a positive side.
You should bring up the statistics speaking about Japan as a whole.
remove yourself from the gene pool, idiot
would gladly kick your face in
[in reply to Devils Advocate_1Sep 12th 2012 8:15 GMT
You merely says that all bad by bringing up a negative side. This is a positive side.
You should bring up the statistics speaking about Japan as a whole.
A balanced view on "Japanese self-victimization":
"It's meant to provoke and be taboo breaking because of the overwhelming view by many that the bombings were unjustified and weren't the best thing to do to end the war. On top of that is Japanese self-victimization while they openly ignore the majority of the atrocities they committed in the Far East.
It's an overall extension of their view on the war, which I've summed up as "We're sorry.... we lost."
I'll defend the Dresden bombing as ardently as Hiroshima or Tokyo, but that doesn't come up nearly as much as much, or is mocked with happiness on it's anniversary, because the Germans as a whole have really shown that they acknowledge the evil that they did during the war and only a small minority have taken the victimized route over the bombing and most of them are Neo-Nazi's.
One is a country that is repentant, the other always keeps coming off as holding to the same mentality they had during the war, only instead of them being the Master Yamato Race that was the center of the universe and destined to conquer the eight corners of the world, it's the the Yamato race angry that America had the gall to slaughter them on as massive a scale as they themselves were doing to the Chinese and other Orientals.
It's just a comment from another board, I have no solid evidence to back it up, but another person mentioned that the death tool of both bombs amounted to the three week death toll in China from the beginning to end of the war. Six years of unending slaughter and that is just China alone."
"I may have issues with you as a poster, Bullyman, but I find myself agreeing with you here.
I don't like the "Who really won the war?" arguments that usually focus on whether it was the Western Allies or the USSR and ignore that both sides had unique roles in crushing Germany, but China played the Soviets role in the Pacific War, being a mean grinder for both the Japanese and, most of all, your countrymen, that forced them to pour the majority of their resources into their fight with you leaving the Allies mainly dealing with the IJN.
As I said, I have issues with you as poster and modern China isn't exactly my favourite nation, but I have deep respect for your country and your people's sacrifices during the war and it is the occupation and rising butchers bill as the war continued in you country and the rest of the Orient that has become the focus of my support for using the bombs. There are many parts of the war that have been overshadowed, but I consider the war on continental Asia to be the most unsung, it was that very war that was the reason why Japan attacked the US in the first place.
Yes, the Allies would have lost hundreds of thousands invading Japan, but mainland Asia has already lost millions and hundreds of thousands continued to die on a monthly basis.
That is the heart of why I look on the bombings with no pity and dabble in the mock celebration to their anniversary because it's the Japanese trying to steal the spotlight that should be given to the rest of the Far East for the evils they committed.
Sorry for the rant. Tired and angered about this subject."
You finally gave up the discussion.
It is not possible to resolve the problem by verbal abuse.
I also add one at the end.
Thank you for keeping company to the end.
[Ajpnin reply to Devils 13th, 13:56
I also add one at the end.
Thank you for keeping company to the end.]
A Japanese poster had already given the most convincing and honest answer, to which I have replied:
[Kara no reply to Pacific 15th, 04:30
China never defeated Japan. Japan surrendered only to the United States. ]
There is some truth in your statement and it only confirms what many believe, which is that the Japanese only respects BRUTE FORCE. There is also some eerie similarity in mentality between the Japan of today and Germany between the World Wars.
After WWI, the German army felt "betrayed" by their politicians, who surrendered "without being militarily defeated". As a result the German right-wing did not feel obliged to accept the terms of their defeat. All that changed after WWII, in which Germany was not only soundly defeated but did so by its main victim-- USSR. The Rape of Berlin woke up the Germans so much that the denial of the Holocaust became a crime in Germany.
The fact that the main victims of Imperial Japan-- China, Korea-- did not actually militarily defeated Japan now make the Japanese right-wing arrogant. They feel that they are superior to their former victims while instinctively submitting to their white conquerors. It will have to take a "Rape of Tokyo" to bring them to their senses.
Needless to say, your statement above merely admits that, of the War in the Pacific and East Asia, only the part between Japan and the US is settled. The part between Japan and its Asian victims is still unfinished and remains suspended. Like the war in Europe, it will take a 2nd session to bring it to conclusion. Fortunately, unlike the first session, this 2nd session will be fought when the aggressor, Japan, will be weak while its victims, China, Korea and other Asian countries, will be strong. THAT will be poetic justice done!}
A lot of nationalist nonsense on both sides here in the comments. Japan clearly performed many atrocities before and during the Second World War, many of which are rivalled only by the Nazis in terms of cruelty and scope. Japanese politicians should follow the Emperor's example and acknowledge that, by stopping the revision of history books and by removing war criminals from shrines honouring the dead.
S Korea on the other hand, should avoid being so provocative (visiting the islands, dragging the Emperor into the argument) because it gives the Nationalists in Japan ammunition and forces mainstream politicians to "act tough", else cede voters to the Nationalists.
This is the oldest trick in the book: use history to stir up Nationalist sentiment and distract voters from real issues.
No...Japan's atrocity is unrivaled even by the Nazis. The victim in Holocaust is less than 20 millions, but the civilian death in China alone is greater than that (please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes).
Comparing Japan's atrocity with Nazi Germany means you are not very aware of the extent of the atrocity.
Look, I'm not going to start a pissing contest where we spit statistics and argue who was worse. Mao's China, Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Germany and Tojo's Japan were all responsible for some of the worst crimes and atrocities in Human history. Acknowledging THAT is what is important.
I completely agree with you. A bit off-topic, but I think you should include the treatment of native Americans (such as the Indian Removal Act) into the list of crimes.
'but I think you should include the treatment of native Americans'
that is indeed off topic and should not have brought up on the south korea- japan matter.
I don't mean to be harsh, just about everybody has a skeleton or two in the closet, the point being that's not the issue.
True, but the Indian Removal Act led to casualties counted in the 1,000s, like 4,000 based on the estimates of a pro-Indian preacher and activist, not 100,000s or millions - Heck of a big difference in scale.
Also there is intention. Removal act was more along the lines of ethnic cleansing, and one performed through legislation (Jackson saying it was the most humanitarian answer to his program of having the continent be a white man's democracy).
Where things spun out of the control was in Florida, with the Seminoles where it started to look like a forshadowing of the Balkans in the 1990s.
That is a big difference from Einsatzgruppen caring out a purposeful policy of killing, or later SS units, or Unit 731.
Probably the most killing/crime resulted from a combination of Federal, state and vigilante actions in California between 1845 and the 1880s.
But now we are getting really off topic. The fact remains, the dispute over these isles are very minor in the big picture of things, which includes significant international trade, economic progress and military security vis-a-vis the unpredictable North Koreans.
The Final Solution for the Jews represented just one facet of the Nazi plans for becoming a continental power.
They were also going to wipe out the educated classes, sources of leadership of slavic societies for instance. And they had it in for other minorities, like the Roma and handicapped people.
As for actual killing, the Nazis certainly pursued some very brutal anti-partisan campaigns across eastern europe that matched the "three alls" of the Japanese in China, as well as created circumstances for Soviet PoWs to be worked and starved to death (which there were many).
Conversely, the deaths of Chinese is still much debated. I persnally noticed the numbers rising over the years from 15 million to 20 million to now some saying over 30 million.
The Penguin History of the Second World War commented:
"The one possible exception is the Chinese whose death roll, pecularly difficult to assess, has been put as low as 2.5 million and as high as 13.5 million." page 577
Add to that list the ethnic cleansing of the Native Indians in America by the whites.
Tojo, when he was Chief-of-Staff of Japanese army in Manchuria, helped Jews to escape through Manchuria (fled Eastern Europe through Soviet).
Tojo should not be on that list.
Here is the Potsdam Declaration full text. Pay attention to Clause 8 which clearly defines Japan's sovereignty.
Potsdam Declaration
Proclamation Defining Terms for Japanese Surrender
Issued, at Potsdam, July 26, 1945
1. We-the President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of China, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing the hundreds of millions of our countrymen, have conferred and agree that Japan shall be given an opportunity to end this war.
2. The prodigious land, sea and air forces of the United States, the British Empire and of China, many times reinforced by their armies and air fleets from the west, are poised to strike the final blows upon Japan. This military power is sustained and inspired by the determination of all the Allied Nations to prosecute the war against Japan until she ceases to resist.
3. The result of the futile and senseless German resistance to the might of the aroused free peoples of the world stands forth in awful clarity as an example to the people of Japan. The might that now converges on Japan is immeasurably greater than that which, when applied to the resisting Nazis, necessarily laid waste to the lands, the industry and the method of life of the whole German people. The full application of our military power, backed by our resolve, will mean the inevitable and complete destruction of the Japanese armed forces and just as inevitably the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland.
4. The time has come for Japan to decide whether she will continue to be controlled by those self-willed militaristic advisers whose unintelligent calculations have brought the Empire of Japan to the threshold of annihilation, or whether she will follow the path of reason.
5. Following are our terms. We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay.
6. There must be eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest, for we insist that a new order of peace, security and justice will be impossible until irresponsible militarism is driven from the world.
7. Until such a new order is established and until there is convincing proof that Japan's war-making power is destroyed, points in Japanese territory to be designated by the Allies shall be occupied to secure the achievement of the basic objectives we are here setting forth.
8. The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.
9. The Japanese military forces, after being completely disarmed, shall be permitted to return to their homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives.
10. We do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation, but stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners. The Japanese Government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established.
11. Japan shall be permitted to maintain such industries as will sustain her economy and permit the exaction of just reparations in kind, but not those which would enable her to re-arm for war. To this end, access to, as distinguished from control of, raw materials shall be permitted. Eventual Japanese participation in world trade relations shall be permitted.
12. The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people a peacefully inclined and responsible government.
13. We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.
'8. The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.'
And in connection to that, the Cairo Declaration was signed on 27 November 1943 and released in a Cairo Communiqué through radio on 1 December 1943,stating the Allies' intentions to continue deploying military force until Japan's unconditional surrender.
The three main clauses of the Cairo Declaration are that
"Japan be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the First World War in 1914",
"all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and the Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China", and that
"in due course Korea shall become free and independent".
And Japan is defying the Potsdam Declaration and Cairo Declaration by stealing the Diaoyu islands and Dokdo island.
I don't think the chinese should worry about it that much or so worked up.
the chinese should know that japanese move on daioyu island is a deliberate attempt to draw china into some military conflict which china may actually win the battle, but against the big risk of running afoul and losing the war to 'china containment', and most of all, stalling its national development. china is simply not strong enough to mitigate that kind of big risk.
china should just swallow its 'pride' a bit and not to be provoked into something it is not ready for. what you think?
You are forgetting the "and such minor islands as we determine."
The US retained the Senkaku islands as part of the Okinawa administration zone. Japan got it as part of the reversion.
And the US was the main country that beat Japan, and set the direction of the occupation and peace settlement.
Doubt the US would have even considered handing over the Senkakus over to Red China, and probably just ignored Taiwan.
Of course, the 1950s Treaty of Taipei between Japan and the Republic of China didn't say much about the Senkakus (if you have any entries explicitly mentioning this issue, please share).
Seems Taiwan had to pipe up with some remonstrations in 1970 or 1971.
As for Dokdo, Japan doesn't control them. Right now they are essentially contesting its status.
To address this apparent repeat post - Japan doesn't control Dokdo, it is contesting its status.
There is this bit - "and such minor islands as we determine."
They benefitted from the leading antagonist of WWII and occupier of their country, the US, retaining the Senkakus.
Essentially the Japanese gained the Senkaku through diplomacy, via the reversion of Okinawa.
Now did people say the US "stole the Senkakus"? I haven't heard that argument.
Probably hard to push considering the military operations that transpired around battle for Okinawa and the conclusion of WWII.
The US won, had control of the area, and wielded enormous influence on disposition of the real estate. Essentially gave itself an extra special occupation zone that everyone conceded too (didn't hear complaints specific to the Senkakus from others on the Far Eastern Commission or Allied Council overseeing SCAP from 1945 to 1950).
'You are forgetting the "and such minor islands as we determine." '
exactly, but who are the 'we' here?
apparently it's the us, uk and ussr who attended potsdam conference and made the compact.
the san francisco treaty pack between the us and japan, granting whatever islands to japan was indeed a 'private transaction' between the two, and should not be legally enforceable as it did not have the other parties of the 'we' agreeing to the deal on paper. that should be not forgotten either.
even though the us was the dominate member responsible for the surrender of japan, a legal deal is a legal deal and as such the san francisco treaty would not hold water if contested in some international court.
It would include China since it was at the Cairo conference.
You seem to forget there was a Far Eastern Commission and Allied Council of Japan. China was on the Far Eastern Commission at least.
Don't know if there were any complaints from the Chinese about the US retaining the Senkakus in the Okinawa administration zone. Doubt it considering the other priorities of the Republic of China (secure urban areas of the eastern sea board, get into Manchuria, reoccupy Taiwan, etc.), but could be wrong.
There was a Tapei treaty between Taiwan and Japan, following the San Francisco treaty, and don't recall any complaints over the Senkakus then.
Otherwise, there were others who signed the San Francisco treaty. Whether you like it or not, it has been in place for 60 years. That fact alone would probably ensure that it holds water in international court, in combination with the agreements reached with other parties, with the exception of the Soviet Union/Russia.
More importantly, you seem to be forgetting that the peace treaty just essentially extended the Okinawa arrangment already agreed to, or conceded to by the others.
China was excluded from SanFrancisco peace conference. I am certain should ROC be represented, China would NOT contest US's full control of these minor islands. But, given our humiliating experience at 1918 paris peace conference, I am equally certain China would insist on a clause about the final disposition of these islands. For example: "US can do whatever it wishes EXCEPT giving these islands to japan without consultation with the original owner, China". Which was exactly what the US did in 1972.
Many attributed US's 1972 action to cold war, but I disagree. At the time US still recognized Taipei as the sole representative of China, and what's more, DiaoYu is located on the east side of Taiwan, PRC had no naval capability to exert effective control in 1972, maybe not even today.
So the question is why, other than the obvious one that US considers Japan a vessel state so the transfer is merely perfunctory, only one reason is offered by a japanese poster (ironman?) that "Japan's kamikaze pilots had scared the s*** out of the Americans". As someone well versed in the politics and culture of both countries, maybe you can give a sanguine reason?
Please note that the Republic of China signed a peace treaty with Japan soon after the treaty of San Francisco, with the Treaty of Taipai. It also referenced the San Francisco Treaty too.
There was no explicit mention of the Senkaku Islands thought. It did mention Penghu, Spratleys and Paracels (as in Japan giving up any claim to them). And, I believe an additional point was added later conceding that Japan's assets in those areas were China's going forward.
There was this point though which I guess the ROC/PRC could assert that the 1895 recognition of the Senkaku islands as Japanese was reversed:
Article 4
"It is recognized that all treaties, conventions and agreements concluded before December 9, 1941, between China and Japan have become null and void as a consequence of the war."
As for the reversion - I would suspect it being the case of the Americans just being narrow minded, maybe rushed, probably insensitive.
Many details were ironed out between the US and Japan in the late 1960s. The US ran Okinawa and happened have those islands, probably didn't really think there was a problem, and handed everything over as part of the package.
Interestingly enough, I can't find reference to Senkaku or Diaoyu. There is reference to Ryuukyuus and Daito. There is even reference to Nanpo Shoto and Amami Islands.
Maybe things were rushed to gain brownie points for Sato, especially since Sato agreed to support the non proliferation treaty, and was continuing to support the whole logistics structure for the American military, especially with the Vietnam conflict.
For instance, in my wife's hometown, they repaired armored vehicles at the Sagamihara depot during the Vietnam conflict.
And of course, Japan agreed to look away from nukes passing through on ships,and seem to give some time for the US to quietly clean up the chemical weapons dumps (I think, working on memory with the latter point).
And during the 1960s Taiwan seemed pretty quiescent on the matter of the Senkaku status (I could be wrong on that point, but just my impression).
So I think the Americans, particularly the American military, just didn't care and/or were unaware about the depth of concern of Taiwan on that issue.
Now there may have also been concern about neutralizing anti-Americanism in Japan on the right least (believe there is a declassified, scanned, and TYPED document that goes into excruciating analysis on that relationship, from 1967 or so).
I think both the ROC and PRC protested that aspect of the reversion in 1971 or 1972. Also, maybe 1971 was there a person from Taiwan parachuting on the island in protest.
Hi Michael, the word "we" is defined in Clause 1 of Potsdam Declaration: "We-the President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of China, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing the hundreds of millions of our countrymen, have conferred and agree that Japan shall be given an opportunity to end this war."
There might be two different interpretations about who can represent China in this case. However, it is to be noted that neither ROC nor PRC has ever determined any of these "minor islands".
"'8. The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.'"
The terms of Cairo Declaration were superceded by the 1951 San Francisco Peace Treaty (Since that is the final peace document between Japan and the bulk of the Allied Powers). Note the present tense "determine" instead of "determined".
The PRC wasn't recognized by the US as the legal governmnet of China for some while, so that certainly confuses things further.
That then comes down tothe ROC. What did the ROC agree to in the treaty of Taipei?
Also, what did the ROC's representatives do in the various bodies technically over SCAP between say 1945 and 1950?
@ Anjin-Sanin reply to kommonsensesSep 11th, 04:11
'The terms of Cairo Declaration were superceded by the 1951 San Francisco Peace Treaty (Since that is the final peace document between Japan and the bulk of the Allied Powers).'
now you are talking unbecoming of your education.
san francisco treaty was based on potsdam and cario declarations that were signed respectively by us, uk, ussr and by us, uk and china.
san francisco treaty was not signed by either china, or ussr/ russia. so it is legally imperfect.
san francisco treaty is private transaction legally not enforceable because of incomplete signatures.
it's like a husband selling a house in common or joint tenancy with the wife, but without her approval or signature on the paper. the paper is worthless as no court of the law would allow that paper recorded on the book.
the buyer may occupy the house for some reason, but that don't mean he has the right to the house. get it?
The Soviets were not part of the Cairo conference and declaration. Seems that mistake keeps cropping up.
The Soviets didn't add their name to the Potsdam Declaration since they were not at war with Japan yet. They were attending the Postdam Conference though, which the Chinese did not participate in.
48 countries signed the San Francisco treaty, so it wasn't private. If wikipedia is to be believed, they were:
Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Cambodia, Canada, Ceylon, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Ethiopia, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Laos, Lebanon, Liberia, Luxembourg, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Pakistan, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, South Africa, the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Uruguay, Venezuela, Vietnam and Japan.[
The Republic of China just a little later signed the Taipei Treaty with Japan. It referenced the San Fran treaty.
So you are down to Red China and the USSR. However, the communiques and agreements between Red China and Japan in the 1970s seem to dance around and even give convey passive acceptance of the architecture of the San Fran treaty...
Japan is the cancer of Asia. It has committed the most barbaric atrocity the world has ever witnessed in China and Korea. And according to the Cairo Declaration and Potsdam Declaration, Japan's sovereignty is limited to the four main islands only. Clause 8 of Potsdam agreement has stated very clearly that "The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine." where the world "we" is defined in Clause 1 of Potsdam agreement: "We-the President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of China, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing the hundreds of millions of our countrymen, have conferred and agree that Japan shall be given an opportunity to end this war."
Hence the Potsdam Agreement has actually stated that Japan's sovereignty outside of four main islands requires Chinese government's approval.
Japan's claim of Diaoyu and Dokdo is against the Potsdam Agreement as their claim is never approved by the Chinese government. They are trying to undermine the post WWII world order. Japan is trying to reject the Potsdam Declaration and this implies that the WWII is not over yet. It is up to the Allies (USA, China) to use whatever it takes to force Japan into surrender.
'Japan is the cancer of Asia'
yes, but quit worrying, it is in the process of being removed.
why? I think it is because to ensure japan would do no more harm, japan is no longer an independent nation but was made a vassal with absolutely no say on japan's foreign and military policy.
despite the facade of local democracy, japan is not a free nation. japanese people lost that privilege since 1945 and there is no end in sight for them to be released from that spell.
I think japan is ruled, for all practical purposes, by the Command of US Forces, Japan (COMUSJAPAN). the us has a pretty good hold on japan so that japan can do no more wrong to its neighbours other than that the us allows japan to bark with rhetoric against china and russia from time to time.
so the cancer is being removed, thanks to the usa, and there's absolutely no hope whatsoever for japan now or in the future, not if the us has any say about it.
people of south korea can relax, there can be no harm done to them by japan, not anymore.
and japanese people, conservatives, right wingers and what not included, you can shout all the nationalistic slogans you like, worshiping war ghost, and bashing others, but at the end of each day, each of you you must show your abject submissiveness to the reality of being an occupied nation. you are not free. I am sorry.
like a convict serving a life sentence, that's the wage of japanese war crimes un-cleansed.
p.s.: and don't get me wrong, japan is wealthy and powerful and I admire that, but that's nothing to brag about. japan owes all that to the benevolence rule of the master us for the last 68 years. even the throne of japanese king or emperor owes its continued existence to americans, general MacArthur said so.
ps2: that's why for compensation of war crimes and sex slaves, people should insist on money, money, not apology. and japan can afford it.
you check out your supermarket and favorite restaurant with money, not with apology from some japanese king or emperor.
"Japan is the cancer of Asia. "
Were it not for this "cancer", Asia today would be colonies of the West in its entirety, and would be about as impoverished as Sub-Saharan Africa. Be careful what you wish for, for it may be granted...
'For Japanese women obsessed with the "Korean wave" of popular culture, that is extremely serious.'
Why does it has to be serious? "Serious" is word used for something like tsunami and radioactivity. "American wave" has been popular in Japan since long ago, but nobody says it's serious.
The article is very biased and doesn't have any constructive illustration and explanation why this have happened, it seems like article was paid by Japanese propaganda ministry. I can smell the "Pro-Japan" all over the article, article's journalism is very low quality it even added out of topic issues to make it lookalike that continuation of this bickering between Seoul and Tokyo would damage S.Korean economy. All I know Japan will lose more than they have bargain for from this strained relation. Losing Seoul as key trade, cultural, diplomatic, military partner could isolate Japan from East Asia and damage American interest in Asia. Seoul would probably side with Moscow and Beijing - this also means no more U.S.A in East Asia. Kiss good bye to good all days of Japan.
Japan does not need Korea. It has always been a burden. Go ahead and side with China and Russia. It would be a favor towards the Japanese.
S. Korean economy goes though periodical crisis and another one is imminent. Japan will not extend the currency swap. Good luck!
korean don't need japan any more.
historically, japan is always burden all over the asia and cracker of asian peace.
western people don't know the truth of asian history & only know japanese kindness and smile well-made by media-giant player like THE ECONOMIST, NEWSWEEK etc. through money (strong YEN)
The bad relation of Asian countries is alwals based on jAPANESE imperial army's arrocity and japanese politician's misunderstanding about history.
Japan's bad relation is only with the both koreas and The both koreas have the responsibilities for that.
We does not need Korea. We are fed with crazy koreans.
Bye Bye, Baka Tyousen.
Yes. Japan will halt currency swap with Korea and sell off Korean government bonds.
Japan should keep healthy distance from Korea, which teaches fantasy (history) and lies about Japanese annexation in schools. There is no hope for Korea.
Would be the dumbest move. Essentially escalating tensions over minor issues when compared to trade, joint economic development, and regional security in opposition to North Korea.
AJO KA?? Nobody in Asia likes Japan. Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, not even Russia.
Do you think that Korea will care if you close the Swap?? Do you even know what a swap does???
The more you push nationalism in Japan the lonelier Japan will be.. Like a little girl with STDs.
>nobody in Asia likes Japan. Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, not even Russia
That is such a wrong statement.
People in southeast Asia tend to be way more progressive than Korea and china.
Korea and china keep passing on the hatred they got from 70years ago and brainwash their citizens who havent even experienced war with anti-Japanese propaganda as you can see from the comments here.
I know it is important to pass on history but the way they do it is just terrifying - I sense a sort of fascism from the two.
Sometimes I'm so worried about the prospect of northeast Asia. Why can't we just move on?
Minor issue compared to what?
Japan-Korea trade only accounts for about 1% in terms of Japanese GDP. It's negligible. But the stopping the currency swap will be a big blow to the Koreans ... interest rates will go up and Korean government will go bankrupt ... once again.
Joint economic development? No thanks! It only leads to more problems. Japan should take a firm stance on Takeshima. It was left alone too many years.
To Korea, Japan has been nothing but a wild lunatic monkey on the back throughout its entire history, and Korean people certainly will not miss Japan if it sinks into the Pacific ocean tomorrow.
wouldn't hesitate to break your cranium
I can't think of a better way to illustrate the consequences of Japan's inability to own up to its military's behaviour during and before World War II. Had Tokyo apologised unequivocally and repeatedly, without any back-pedaling (history book revision, questioning of atrocities, claiming that sex slaves volunteered, etc.) it may have been easier for Korean politicians to be a lot more flexible on such issues. After all, even Korean politicians have to answer to their citizens.
BTW what is this cr*p about honouring mass murderers as national heroes? How twisted is that for Japan to be still doing this? Why is the Japanese public voting for people like Ishihara? Japan hasn't changed. Can Japan really be without real honourable men and women to celebrate as national heroes? Do they only have war criminals to look up to?
Harry Truman and Mao were real mass murderers. Yet, they are honored. In addition, why should the Japanese apologize for things that did not happen (like Nanjing)? Why should the Japanese apologize for retaliating against Chinese terrorism? The war on the continent was started by the Chinese on Marco Polo bridge on July 7, 1937. It is clear from history that Japan did not want to fight that war.
Of course, the Japanese know it is not right, and they support those who are not afraid to speak up like Ishihara.
Has Japan honor mass murders, or some Japanese politicians visted the shrine were they are held. Why do French vote for people like Marine Le Pen or Italians vote for Berlusconi?
Even if Japan did apologize you yourself seem to imply that their is no guarantee that the apology would every be accepted. Its the face thing. Germans most likely apologized repeatedly, before they go it right, but Westerners are more accepting at failed apologies.
I get irritated when people like you bring up the German apology, I don't think its a good / realistic example of how a country like Japan should conduct an apology. The Japanese War time leaders are not seen as all bad among the Japanese people, unlike the Nazis. The whole Emperor Hirahito, the Japanese Emperor as Godlike figure, who's turds are golden. The Americans made a pact with the devil, and they allowed some pretty unsavory types (short of outright war criminals) to serve as their local henchmen in their fight against the Commies. Some of the best officers of the ROK military were members of Gando Special Forces
If the first 4 star ROK General is treated by some in the ROK as an untouchable for his service to the Japanese, what are the chances of the Japanese apology being accepted. The Japanese government are not stupid, they look at these things. When the ROK first 4 star general can't admit what he did when he was in the Gando Special Forces, and you expect an apology from the Japanese. As I said in one of my previous post, the relationship between the ROK and Japan is complicated, its not as straight forward as China and Japan.
Look at Indonesia, they might even electing Prabowo as President, a person banned from the US for committing war crimes in East Timor. Ditto for Wiranto.
The way I look at it, I think the Japanese should follow the Russian example vis-a-vis Poland. The Russians have a complicated view of Stalin (some condemn him, others worship him), but Putin commemorated the murder of Polish officers by the Soviet Union.
While he did not give an official apology, at least it was a first step. you want the Japanese to suddenly bend down and grovel on their knees, and worship your godlike visage.
Showa Emperor was a peaceful man from any angle you look at him. He was just on the losing side of the war ... a war he could not have stopped from happening. Japanese emperor are always with the people, and the people wanted war at that time.
You become a war criminal when you lose a war ... and everything you do is justified as long as you win.
This is a typical American (childish) way of looking at things. Heck, America is just a few hundred years old.
"Why do French vote for people like Marine Le Pen or Italians vote for Berlusconi?"
So, if the White guys did it, it's OK? Did I say it's OK in Marie's case, for instance?
"Even if Japan did apologize you yourself seem to imply that their is no guarantee that the apology would every be accepted."
You're such an apologist for them. Ironic that they won't even apologise properly. The Right in Japan behaves as if an apology is an injury to the nation. In fact the inability to do so hurts Japan far worse.
"Germans most likely apologized repeatedly, before they go it right"
I don't expect you to have read anything I've written -- after all you must feel you know vastly more so why bother to read my posts -- but I've said that the Germans have done apologies many times and consistently over decades and they've divorced themselves from their Nazi connection successfully because (I've never heard them ask) they never wonder when they've apologised enough. I've been fully indoctrinated in how the Germans have been no good either. After all, they invaded the Netherlands when we told them we were neutral. But I am quite convinced that the Germans won't allow Nazi behaviour to return.
"I get irritated when people like you bring up the German apology, I don't think its a good / realistic example of how a country like Japan should conduct an apology. The Japanese War time leaders are not seen as all bad among the Japanese people, unlike the Nazis. The whole Emperor Hirahito, the Japanese Emperor as Godlike figure, who's turds are golden."
I get irritated when people like you get irritated because that implies your views are worth something. Irritate away, my friend. I don't give two bits. In addition, I don't care if the emperor's defecation is gold to the people. The people can eat them if they like. But it's precisely the fact that the Emperor's turd is gold to the Japanese people that they feel they can murder like they did in the emperor's name and worse they feel they've done nothing wrong. Worse, they believe the victims asked for it. Well, the emperor was a frail waif like girlie figure that's a class A war criminal. Had the Japanese people been free of this stupidity, they could do so much more with their country. Instead they come up with elder porn and hentai manga.
"Look at Indonesia, they might even electing Prabowo as President, a person banned from the US for committing war crimes in East Timor. Ditto for Wiranto."
Prabowo is impotent. He has ... what's the name for impotence complex?
"you want the Japanese to suddenly bend down and grovel on their knees, and worship your godlike visage."
If it were that simple, it would be too good for them. Two atomic bombs were too few for them. Their soldiers killed 20 million in China. They used Chinese in cruel experiments. THey spread the plague throughout the civilian population in China. They took Chinese, Korean, even some Dutch women as sex slaves. Don't make it sound as if the Chinese, Koreans, and others were the bad ones. Don't even.
"You're such an apologist for them. Ironic that they won't even apologise properly. The Right in Japan behaves as if an apology is an injury to the nation. In fact the inability to do so hurts Japan far worse."
I am not an apologist. How many Japanese people I have to beat up to show I am not. I have bashed a few Japanese people in my youth, so what more do I have to do. Hate especially without humor is bad. I am just telling people to get over it., and for that I am called an apologist.
""Look at Indonesia, they might even electing Prabowo as President, a person banned from the US for committing war crimes in East Timor. Ditto for Wiranto.
Prabowo is impotent. He has ... what's the name for impotence complex?"
He has a son, but then again his son could be a bastard. But I am no expert, but I assume you have a PhD in such matters.
"If it were that simple, it would be too good for them. Two atomic bombs were too few for them. Their soldiers killed 20 million in China. They used Chinese in cruel experiments. THey spread the plague throughout the civilian population in China. They took Chinese, Korean, even some Dutch women as sex slaves. Don't make it sound as if the Chinese, Koreans, and others were the bad ones. Don't even."
Well its about Korea, not China. I find it funny that people are bringing China into this. Do people talk about Malaya when they talk about the British atrocities in the Boer War. Not that I know of.
With Korea its about
1) Comfort Women and Enforced Slavery.
2) Japanese Occupation of Peninsula.
For the first they might get an apology from the Japanese. For the second I strongly doubt the Koreans will ever get an apology. The West is not keen on having Japan apologize for Japanese colonialism in Korea, because its no worse than what happened in their colonies in Asia. Should Britain apologize for India? The Americans for the Philippines?
"Don't make it sound as if the Chinese, Koreans, and others were the bad ones. Don't even."
What do you to do? Threaten me with your stunning good looks?
So far people have harped on it for ages about Japan following Germany, where has it got them? Nowhere. Let's be realistic, and stop acting like a three year old. Did I say that Japan should not apologize. No, you forgot to read the last part, where I said maybe the Russian example with Poland. Putin did go to the commemoration ceremony, but stopped short of an apology. But to the Poles it was alot more meaningful than what the Japanese have done. Gas the Queen of England apologized for the 800+ year subjection of Ireland, no. But her first state visit to the Irish Republic was significant.
[Mike Tyson reply to 10th, 05:06
Harry Truman and Mao were real mass murderers. Yet, they are honored. In addition, why should the Japanese apologize for things that did not happen (like Nanjing)? Why should the Japanese apologize for retaliating against Chinese terrorism? The war on the continent was started by the Chinese on Marco Polo bridge on July 7, 1937. It is clear from history that Japan did not want to fight that war. ]
The Marco Polo Bridge incident was a case of Japanese terrorism. Not only that, Japan had been invading and cannibalising a China in decline LONG before Marco Polo Bridge incident-- THAT proves the Japan DID want to fight the War/wars against China.
[Of course, the Japanese know it is not right, and they support those who are not afraid to speak up like Ishihara.]
"the Japanese know it is not right" but they refuse to admit that they were wrong because they are like the germans between the First and Second World Wars;
[Kara no reply to Pacific 15th, 04:30
China never defeated Japan. Japan surrendered only to the United States. ]
There is some truth in your statement and it only confirms what many believe, which is that the Japanese only respects BRUTE FIRCE. There is also some eerie similarity in mentality between the Japan of today and Germany between the World Wars.
After WWI, the German army felt "betrayed" by their politicians, who surrendered "without being militarily defeated". As a result the German right-wing did not feel obliged to accept the terms of their defeat. All that changed after WWII, in which Germany was not only soundly defeated but did so by its main victim-- USSR. The Rape of Berlin woke up the Germans so much that the denial of the Holocaust became a crime in Germany.
The fact that the main victims of Imperial Japan-- China, Korea-- did not actually militarily defeated Japan now make the Japanese right-wing arrogant. They feel that they are superior to their former victims while instinctively submitting to their white conquerors. It will have to take a "Rape of Tokyo" to bring them to their senses.
Needless to say, your statement above merely admits that, of the War in the Pacific and East Asia, only the part between Japan and the US is settled. The part between Japan and its Asian victims is still unfinished and remains suspended. Like the war in Europe, it will take a 2nd session to bring it to conclusion. Fortunately, unlike the first session, this 2nd session will be fought when the aggressor, Japan, will be weak while its victims, China, Korea and other Asian countries, will be strong. THAT will be poetic justice done!
Too bad. Chinese and Koreans will destroy themselves. Japan only needs to watch.
Another currency crisis is coming for Korea, and the Chinese Communist regime will collapse when the Chinese economy goes.
And ... you still got Marco Polo bridge wrong. Japan would not want to fight the endless war there. Invade China and do what? It would only be a burden.
Japan only wanted to contain the Soviets ... Manchuria served as buffer.
"I am not an apologist. How many Japanese people I have to beat up to show I am not. I have bashed a few Japanese people in my youth, so what more do I have to do. Hate especially without humor is bad. I am just telling people to get over it., and for that I am called an apologist."
The people on the other side are pretty much over it -- after all they have moved on, many of them even have friends and admire Japanese things (why I don't know, it's so effeminate, even samurai movies are filled with gay love). It's the Japanese side that shows an utter lack of remorse. They think it's a joke.
I don't mean the fringe ultra right too. I've lived and worked in Japan back in the late 80's (it was my attempt at "reconciling) with the Japanese), they had these vans parked on busy streets spewing hate. And while that is probably protected under some sort of free speech thing, I have not come across mainstream Japanese who think who unequivocally express the view that Nanking or comfort women was just plain bad. It has always been a nuanced view. I think to myself, what the heck is there to be nuanced about? It's plain shameful. They weren't forced to do these things. And if they were, who forced them? The Americans? The Chinese? Koreans? All the talk about bushido and crap, and they can't own up to something that's clear as day.
WHy is this important? Because without exception every Japanese person I've encountered have told me that they felt bad (not necessarily sorry) and that they want to forget these things ever happened. Forget. I think it's a double tragedy for those victims to be forgotten. Imagine a son or daughter, a brother or sister, someone's father or mother who were maimed, killed, raped and died anomymous deaths in mass graves. Thrown away like animal carcasses. Imagine that happening to your loved ones. What were their last thoughts? What would they tell their loved ones? They never got a chance to do so. They must never be forgotten.
There's a difference between getting over history and remembering the victims.
"He has a son, but then again his son could be a bastard. But I am no expert"
It's probably IVF. You're no expert? I thought you were.
"but I assume you have a PhD in such matters."
I do. I have a PhD in everything. It's the equivalent of many different PhD's but the universities got tired of issuing so many (something about being eco-unfriendly for the number of diplomas they have to print just for me) they finally surrendered and gave me one that's universal.
"What do you to do? Threaten me with your stunning good looks?"
That would be bad for you. You could turn gay for me. It's happened before but I don't play for that team.
"Gas the Queen of England apologized for the 800+ year subjection of Ireland, no."
It's not the occupation part that the Japanese need to apologise for. It's the atrocities done in their names. It's bad enough that they don't feel they have to make apologies unequivocal, they are allowing right wing reviionists to seep into the mainstream. That's shameful.
Mike Tyson Ironman:
I object to equating Harry Truman with Mao. Truman was prosecuting a war against an aggressor Japan, who attacked Pearl Harbor 10 years after it first invaded China's Manchuria Province in 1931. Mao was a butcher who killed tens of millions of his own people, just to satisfy a twisted ideology.
Thus, when you write: "The war on the continent was started by the Chinese on Marco Polo bridge on July 7, 1937.", it is not really true. 1937 was SIX YEARS after Japan invaded China.
"The people on the other side are pretty much over it -- after all they have moved on, many of them even have friends and admire Japanese things (why I don't know, it's so effeminate, even samurai movies are filled with gay love). It's the Japanese side that shows an utter lack of remorse. They think it's a joke. "
I don't think so, particularly China. Some of the Chinese demonstrations turned violent, hitting Japanese people, smashing Sushi restaurant (??), Japanese made police cars were turned overturn and vandalized. I am sorry, but some Chinese haven't moved on. Damaging a police car could land you in Sodomy Central (prison) in any country. I think the Koreans are slowly moving on. If you look at the demonstrators in Seoul, they are usually middle aged or old people, but anti-North Korean demonstrations are also populated by old geezers. Not exactly elder porn, but close.
"I don't mean the fringe ultra right too. I've lived and worked in Japan back in the late 80's (it was my attempt at "reconciling) with the Japanese), they had these vans parked on busy streets spewing hate. And while that is probably protected under some sort of free speech thing, I have not come across mainstream Japanese who think who unequivocally express the view that Nanking or comfort women was just plain bad. It has always been a nuanced view. I think to myself, what the heck is there to be nuanced about? It's plain shameful. They weren't forced to do these things. And if they were, who forced them? The Americans? The Chinese? Koreans? All the talk about bushido and crap, and they can't own up to something that's clear as day."
You thought that your good looks will cause them to blabber in an controlled expression of remorse etc. I guess you were frustrated that they didn't fall for your charms.
The allies had to deal with practical realities of the aftermath of WW2. In my opinion, the fault lies with the pragmatic policy of the Americans. Do you really think the Germans wholeheartedly and sincerely apologized in the beginning. Come on, my father was in the FDR in the early 1960s, he told me deep down Jerry were still Nazis. If it was not for the allies and their denazification campaigns, we would see Hans giving us the Sieg Heil today. It was very comprehensive campaign.
Japan did not have any even remotely close to what the allies did in Germany. The Americans did not have the French/British breathing down their necks. Furthermore, the Americans had prosaic concerns, keeping the Commies at bay.
That is why I don't see the Germans as all that special, it required intensive program constructed by the allies to root out Nazism. Unfortunately the Soviets did not do such a good job in East Germany.
I did not want to spoil your German love fest, but the Germans suddenly did not become angels overnight. I am apt to believe that the Germans were just as rotten as the Japanese in 1945, maybe more so.
How to you get the apologize. Maybe you can nuke Tokyo. But let's be honest and realistic, the Americans had no intention of doing what they did in Germany in Japan, and its too late now in my opinion. So grow up and stop acting like a 3 year old.
My reasoning is not based on being a Nippon apologist or based on a naive belief the Germans sincerely felt "sorry", but the effort the allies made to get rid of Nazism and the poisonous elements of German nationalism.
[Mike Tyson reply to Devils 11th, 07:05
Too bad. Chinese and Koreans will destroy themselves. Japan only needs to watch.]
The herbivore men are destroying Japan even without outside help: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/30/japan-population-shrink-third
All that we need to do is to watch.
[Another currency crisis is coming for Korea, and the Chinese Communist regime will collapse when the Chinese economy goes.]
They have said that about the Chinese economy many time before. It is Japan which is stagnating for 2 decades and is still continuing.
[And ... you still got Marco Polo bridge wrong. Japan would not want to fight the endless war there. Invade China and do what? It would only be a burden.]
You are the one who get it wrong. Japan had already invaded China decades before Marco Polo Bridge incident.
[Japan only wanted to contain the Soviets ... Manchuria served as buffer.]
Then it should have "contained the Soviets" in Soviet territory. What's wrong with you guys? Are you so afraid of the whites? China confronted and fought both white superpowers-- sometimes at the same time-- when it was still hopelessly inferior in terms of military power.
"You are the one who get it wrong. Japan had already invaded China decades before Marco Polo Bridge incident"
I did not know that Korea was part of China. Have been watching too many Korean soaps, have we.
"I don't think so, particularly China. Some of the Chinese demonstrations turned violent, hitting Japanese people, smashing Sushi restaurant (??), Japanese made police cars were turned overturn and vandalized. I am sorry, but some Chinese haven't moved on. Damaging a police car could land you in Sodomy Central (prison) in any country. I think the Koreans are slowly moving on."
You said it yourself: The Koreans only have the sex slaves issue to deal with (although I think there's a lot more). The Chinese have much more including being treated like nothing more than lab animals. The japanese revel at the decapitation contest. You try telling the CHinese to get over that. I hope that they remember these things for all generations to come. And for the Japanese to be so arrogantly questioning the whole "incident" is just shameful. Again I'd say that it's one thing to have moved on (and if they haven't they'd be stuck trying to purge all bad elements in China but they've done it with the cultural revolution and they found out it's silly) it's one thing to forget. They haven't forgotten. Good for them. Every year, people in HK and elsewhere, commemorate Tiananmen '89. Why don't they get over it? Actually they have, at the end of the day, they go home and eat their wontons and char shu. They just want to keep the memories of that day alive. Is this silly? No. It's not. And Tiananmen didn't even have a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the bloodshed the Imperial Japanese "Army" thugs did in just Nanking alone. Right, so they should just keep quiet about it. That's exactly what the Japanese criminals would love to happen. And you're helping them by being irritated -- maybe you should apply a medicated lotion or something. It shouldn't be so easy for the criminals.
"I did not want to spoil your German love fest, but the Germans suddenly did not become angels overnight. I am apt to believe that the Germans were just as rotten as the Japanese in 1945, maybe more so. "
It doesn't matter. What matters is, even if they started off much worse, they've done the apology enough that it's taking root. It's genuine now and the Holocaust will never be forgotten (as it should be). Contrast that with the situation in Japan. They are still questioning history when everyone else has said it happened. If Chinese youths don't speak up who will? Who will keep the memory of the victims alive? The Indonesians? The Filipinos? The Vietnamese? Forget it, they are cowards. You want to know how to deal with a bully? You think the Indonesian/Filipino/Vietnamese approach is better? You're just asking for more. The next time the bully gets his chance, he just might finish you off.
[Bismarck888in reply to Devils 12th 2012 8:20 GMT
"You are the one who get it wrong. Japan had already invaded China decades before Marco Polo Bridge incident"
I did not know that Korea was part of China. Have been watching too many Korean soaps, have we.]
Bis, if the Japanese had not already invaded China, how was it that it had troop stationed at or near Marco Polo Bridge. There is a big distance between Peking and the Korean-Chinese border. Even before that, I believe, Japan had already invaded and occupied North East China (Manchuria).
By then again, you are the expert in Chinese history (and everything else). I am not.
You are emotional, male PMS ??? I have a question for you, what would you have done in Japan, if you were McArthur? Would you have pulled a "Paul Bremer", and execute the Japanese Emperor ala Saddam Hussien? Or make him bow and lick your smelly feet. Had the Americans occupied Germany alone, I have a strong feeling that their denazification program would not have the same intensity if they did not have the French/British breathing down their backs. Do you expect it would have happened by itself
As for the comparison between Tiananmen and WW2, well the initial conquest of China by the Manchus was bloodier than what the Japanese did. Yet few Chinese talk / know about the impact, it took almost a century to recover economically. And during the Qing dynasty, there were two major anti-Manchu rebellions (White Lotus and Taiping), 30 Million each. Its totally glossed over. Everything that happened to China in 19th century, in my opinion, had its roots in the Manchu conquest. Just as the Mughul invasion, made the colonization of India much easier for the British.
Are the Vietnamese cowards? Why don't you go against an American Infantry Company with only a WW2 era rifle? They were fighting almost non-stop from 1940-1990. The character of the SE Asians (including Vietnamese), they don't hold grudges (or remember things for long). It can be good or bad. If the Vietnamese were like the Chinese / Koreans, they would be protesting almost everything month. China, Japan, Americans the French. Vietnamese were nasty when they fight, but after the conflict, they move on. If China did what they did in Vietnam in 1979 to Korea, the Koreans would talk about it constantly. As for the Japanese, the Vietnamese eventually knew they were going to leave. To the Vietnamese, the Japanese were no worse than what the Americans did to them. Secondly, the Japanese occupation of Vietnam was muddled (ie jointly ruled by Vichy France)
Just as many people died in Indonesia during Japanese occupation as a % of the population as in China. So why don't they talk about it alot. Well the Japanese "helped" them gain independence earlier, so their feelings are more ambivalent. Yes they do mention the Japanese atrocities, but they don't harp on it.
As for the Japanese, are they questioning. IN their history books? Only a small % of those history books question it. Its the ones that makes you have a orgasm of anti-Japanese feeling. I can understand why the Japanese would try to nuance their way with you, because frankly you are big fat prick, but literally and figuratively. I would do the same if I was in their position, just to see jump up and down.
You must think I am a prick or stupid etc, because I don't want to bayonet some Nipponese. You respond with an emotional tirade, when I question the actions of those demonstrators. They are supposed to love China, unlike the smelly Tibetans. But they toast a Police Car owned by their own government. How come ? Going after a Sushi restaurant, is like going after a Kebab joint in the UK. But for you its all OK, since you hate Hello Kitty so much. Next time why don't you lead the protest in China, and burn some Hello Kitty dolls wearing IJA uniforms. That will draw the crowd. I am sure if you were to do that, you will be held down by a bunch of 9 year girls dressed in hello kitty stuff and have your balls repeatedly kick by these girls.
This article surely is a pro-japanese, biased article. "Charismatic" Japanese right-wing politician???? Surely, this writer was supporting and praising Japanese right-wing, which is notorious for being ultranationalistic. (Google right-wing extremism in Japan)
"In South Korea the blame for this fell largely on Mr Noda. However, Hitoshi Tanaka, a Japanese foreign-policy expert who has taken part in comfort-women negotiations in the past, says it was long ago agreed between the two countries that Japan could not offer state handouts to individuals, however much they suffered, on the (admittedly curious) ground that the demands would be endless. He says the Lee administration ignores numerous past apologies, as well as indirect compensation payments."
The writer used quotations only from experts who criticize the South Korean government, subtly showing the partiality of this article. Well, the Japanese government apologized numerous times, BUT nowadays they are annulling what they said!!!! That is why the South Korean president visited Dokdo and demanded that the Japanese emperor give a sincere apology, not a mere fiscal recompensation halfheartedly thrown at Koreans. Please follow Germany's example, Japan!!
This is biased article.I won't be surprised if the author got paid by Japanese gov for writing this article.Dok-do(Takeshima) was the first island Japan has taken away from Korea before its eventual forced annexation of Korea.It is symbolic place for Korea's independence.Japan claim is based on the decision of Simane county in 1905 of incorporating the island.However, the Meiji gov of Japan has given out clear instruction to her local gov that Dok-do doesn't belong to Japan.Of course, there are more historical evidences in favour of Korea, which Japan conveniently denies.
and some japanese extremist here trying to glorify japanese suicide bomber they called kamikaze, can you believe that? glorifying terrorists?
japan invented 'suicide bomber' they called 'kamikaze', murdering their own people, some in their teens, in certain death acts. a cowardly act to begin with, for if otherwise, how come they didn't send japanese emperor or king for a ride?
today, japanese 'suicide bombers' crimes are continued by terrorist organizations murdering people and playing havoc to communities in middle east and north africa and other parts of the world. kamikaze is terrorism to the core. some kamikaze uh?
fortunately today, japan including its japanese extremists is under complete control and occupation of the usa. and no matter how bully these guys sound to others here, there's no need to get upset folks, because these guy are not equal with you.
these guys are second class citizens being a vassal state under leash of uncle sam. don't worry about them none, for now.
Its funny how an article about Japan and South Korea, does not mention North Korea. At the very same time, North Korea is reopening talks with Japan. Why now?
The way I look at the situation, with the deterioration in South Korea-Japan relations, wouldn't the Japanese want a divided Korea to remain. The best hope of that is aiding the North.
Unfortunately the comment section has been hijacked by posters who usually comment on topics about China. Let's be frank, when the Japanese and neutral observers looks at the tirade of silliness coming from some of the Chinese posters, if I were Japanese I would be suspicious of China. Even if the Japanese did actually apologize and compensate the war victims, would that ever be enough for the angry Chinese youth. Not in my opinion. Short of cloning Japanese AV stars for every Chinese male in China, the Chinese will never be satisfied. Why apologize?
To be frank the Chinese government at this juncture, would rather deal with more meaty issues like the so called East Asia FTA.
I think I touched upon this point some days ago:
"Japan probably has realized it that by next year, four of the so called six-party will be sitting at the UNSC table. That's why Japan and North Korea resumed long suspended bilateral meeting this week, ogling each other in a upscale Beijing hotel, with second rendezvous to be commenced 'very soon' (too sticky for ya? :-))."
Now onto something unrelated. I firmly believe that each one of us come here as individual, not as 'representative' of our race, nor 'agent' of our government. A Japanese poster needs not first apologizing for WWII, a Chinese one needs not first denouncing Mao, before each can express his/her opinions on the subject.
If somehow you won some points in the debate, with your knowledge and your cunning, good for you. But don't take that as if winning some epic battle against evil commie or single-handedly delivered a lecture onto 1.3 billion Chinese. Let me be (borrow from your vocabulary) blunt, you do have this trait of self-gradiose delusion or fantacy. It's not a healthy mental state to be in.
I just have a lot of free time now. Is this topic about China, no its Korea and Japan, there were 3-4 article about China-Japan?
'I just have a lot of free time now.'
haha I do too. you have been sticking to every gd china article like a fruit fly to honey melon, smearing and attacking them with your twisted and out of context cut & paste & plagiarism of wikipedia and what not.
just don't think you are the only one who's got time here.
Is this about China? Its about Korea and Japan.
1. either a sign of utter diplomatic failure of the US "China containment" doctrine being carried out in the area supposedly with the "iron clad triangle" of the US, S.K. and Japan and others in some unified front, or else
2. some deliberate attempt to teach Japan who the boss is.
I think it's the 'china containment' doctrine. But instead of failure, it's the progression of this doctrine. Lookinf at this way, second point (teach japan who the boss is) can be easily fit into the purpose of the doctrine.
So far the containment claimed two victim: 1) ASEAN+3, dead. 2) China-Korea-Japan cooperation, in ICU.
For the first time Hilary called comfort women 'sex slaves', after japanese behind-the-scences complaint, her spokesperson said US will use 'comfort woman' and 'sex slaves' alternately. (I guess it's MWF 'comfort women' and TRS 'sex slaves', and Sunday? office closed). If the US seems to tilt towards Korea's position in this, I suspect it is to prepare South Korea for something unpleasant, namely the semi-permanent division of Korea for the sake of a better delineated front line for the China containment doctrine.
"I suspect it is to prepare South Korea for something unpleasant, namely the semi-permanent division of Korea for the sake of a better delineated front line for the China containment doctrine"
This is a pretty bizarre statement. South Korea has been divided for quite a while now, and judging from conversations with South Koreans, expected to continue for some time.
Otherwise, do you think South Korea doesn't notice China's support for North Korea?
It seems South Korea wasn't too happy with China disputing the sinking of the Cheonan back in 2010.
2010 seemed like a year of China shooting itself in the foot too - with mishandling of that fishing boat incident off of the Senkakus.
All of this before talk of "pivot towards Asia"
I think events demonstrate that China bears some blame for any decline in cooperation with South Korea and Japan.
Yes, these are just my conjecture, but I think Cheonan incident was NK's reaction to SK's sudden turning away from the sunshine policy, which interestingly was after China told SK that it would be acuiescent to a SK takeover of NK IF US troops would then leave the peninsula (per wikileaks).
Under such a scenario, China would lose a client but gained a wider buffer, Korea would have their unificatioin, US would lose some forward stations, and Japan would be forced to take up the slack.
Of course there are lots of blame to go around, but I think this 'pivot' thingy started when State Department received the cable about China's (indecent) proposal to the South Koreans.
If I headed up the State Department, I would have grabbed this opportunity with both hands (if a credible):
"which interestingly was after China told SK that it would be acuiescent to a SK takeover of NK IF US troops would then leave the peninsula (per wikileaks)."
Just not sure anyone is confident of the South Koreans being able to take over the north with acceptable casualties, collateral damage etc.
Heck the US thought of just pulling out under Carter. Scaling back a commitment now, after an headache (North Korea) had been removed sounds great.
I think a united Korea would be too independent to be the pawn of any other regional player....
You write:
(A)"Just not sure anyone is confident of the South Koreans being able to take over the north with acceptable casualties, collateral damage etc."
(B)"I think a united Korea would be too independent to be the pawn of any other regional player....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see a contradiction between the above (A) and (B).
If South Korea cannot "take over the north" how could they also be "too independent" at the same time?
From the context of your comment, it is clear you are speaking of a negotiated "take over" with "China acquiescent" and not a military one. Thus, I fail to see how "casualties" and "collateral damage etc." would result.
Mike, can you say "one country, 2 systems", the formula China used when "taking over" Hong Kong?
Considering the income gap between South Korea and the North is much greater than that which existed between West and East Germany in 1990, it would seem that to suddenly transform North Korea "overnight" would not be feasible. It would be too much of a shock. Thus, "1 Country--2 Systems" would have to exist side-by-side for some time.
But more aid would flow to the people of the former North Korea and the military would not be able to direct it to itself, as is widely suspected.
Well was probably a bit too brief of a response.
I don't think there is a valid military option right now for South Korea. I think they would have a tough time taking over North Korea from a military perspective, and I think the costs would be too high.
That being said, if for some reason, like a collapse of the north korean regime, Korea was united under essentially South Korean rule (absorption) or hegemony, then I feel a united Korea would be a tough cookie.
Now if the Chinese were like we would stand by and let a North Korea collapse (if that is possible), in exchange for AMericans to depart the penninsula, I think that would be a good deal in the long term. Think Koreans would assert independence even if temporarily beholden to the Chinese, or weakened from having to execute some sort of arrangement unifying the two counties (North and South Korea).
My suspicion is that North Korea would at a minimum be a junior partner to the South. Probably would be some sort of one country or one confederation or country plus occupation zone, but two systems.
My guess is that South Korea would not be as generous to North Korea and West Germany was to the osties. Maybe don't have to be?
My guess would be a policy to keep people in place, except for reuniting relatives and satisfying immediate labor shortages in the South, followed by basic food aid. Then for the medium to long term transform North Korea into the cheap labor intensive component of Chaebol supply chains - basically a big special economic zone that keeps the South Korean companies' labor costs down and/or competitive.
Agree that any real convergence or appearance of one between the two societies could take a good long time (10 to 20 years?)...
Just some thoughts.
Have a read of the link anyway:
Why Japan and South Korea Are Feuding Over a Cluster of Rocks
'Japanese officials struggled to make sense of Lee's actions. The Korean president had always been viewed as a pragmatist, more interested in building a "future-minded relationship" with South Korea's third-largest trading partner than in dwelling on past misdeeds. "What happened to the guy?" Noda blurted out during a parliamentary session....'
Everyone knows that that article is written from a biased Japanese journalist. This would not even be considered as a rightful primary source, dude
there's nothing japanese aggression-ism (as represented by some japanese posters here) understand except the brute force.
the koreans don't appreciate that, the chinese don't appreciate that, only the americans do.
americans beat the shxt out of them, nuked them, occupied them and now rule supreme over them japanese and then feed them after done with all that, and most japanese kudos and willingly play slave like submissiveness to that. why? because they cult for brute forces.
yet there's nothing wrong because that's in their national characteristics. so to resolve current dispute between sout korea and japan, it's futile for koreans to talk or reason further. they should follow the american approach, or appeal and have the americans do it for them, to get justice done.
here is how:
= write to us senators and congresspersons
= appeal to each state senate and assembly of usa
= appeal to every county or city council (like some koreans have successfully done in new jersey)
tell them the war crimes, atrocities and sex slaves and ask for help. americans are always willing to help the underdog when it is on the right side of morality.
Yes. Americans can be fooled quite easily, even at congressional level.
About WW2. I think the Japanese scared the xxxx out of Americans with Kamikaze attacks very deeply. I think that explains some of over-reaction against Japanese (healthy) nationalism in this post.
Yeah sure. Healthy nationalism here it is.
What a typical nationalist american. Would you agree if Britain said they would come between the war between Iraq and the US?? That is exactly how other nations feel. Such a narrow-minded view.
I am no good representing any one or any nationality but myself. so what this has got anything to do with 'nationalist american'?
I will say this though, no american of human dignity would approve japanese indecency about human lives and japan's cowardly dodging its war crimes responsibility.
more and more americans are infuriated at japanese savagery such as sex slaves and its despicable beastly atrocities against ww2 POWs.
scared? american? look who is talking.
it's the us who is lording over japan, making rules for japannese to follow from 1945 to now and continuing. not the other way around.
you don't have to remind me that japan is the mecca of terrorism.
japan invented 'suicide bomber' they called in japanese 'kamikaze', murdering their own people, some in their teens, in certain death acts. a cowardly act to begin with, for if otherwise, how come they didn't send japanese emperor for a ride?
today, japanese invention of 'suicide bombers' are continued by terrorist organizations murdering people and playing havoc to communities in middle east and north africa and other parts of the free world. some kamikaze uh?
You are a fool?. Do you really think the Americans would want Japan to apologize. McArthur's refusal to accept the Japanese apology was one reason why you are wasting your time. Its something for Asians to work out among themselves. The Americans won't hang you, just merely give the rope so you can hang yourselves. A rational person would forget about the apology, and try to bring Japan closer into China's orbit, demand greater access to Japanese technology etc.
Americans still has unresolved issues with Japan, treatment of its POWs. They have not been compensate individually either, so don't expect much. US courts have rejected lawsuits against the Japanese government etc. In the US Senate/House of Representative its a closed and shut case
Let's be frank, Americans have more or less forgot about WW2. When I went to America in 1970s, anti-Japanese feeling was still strong in those days. To be frank, white people don't know the difference between Chinese and Japanese, I don't think any of our Chinese posters want to mistaken for a Japanese period in the 1980s. I don't think you want any Chinese restaurant massacres (aka Sikh Temple)
Don't bring the Americans into this. To be frank the last thing East Asian people need is the Americans hating any East Asian people whether Japanese, Korean, Chinese or Vietnamese. You don't live in Merika, so you don't know how stupid some of them are?? East Asians In America had went through almost 50 years of that crap, from 1940-1990. First it was the Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese. Would some of our Chinese posters get involved in a case of mistaken identity, like to be beaten to the pulp by a bunch of white dudes, "Saying, you people killed my Grandpa !!" Don't preach anti-Japanese hate in America. Yeah, brilliant idea !! Its the brown man's turn now, let them have their day in the sun. I am pretty sure most of the Chinese posters living in America would rather keep it that way.
Hey so I got bored trolling this forum and I probably won't be posting here all that often anymore, but I think I got PL123 and his Indian friend, liveinhope, banned by accident.
I thought it would be funny to report like ~200 of their posts all at once, and both of them haven't posted since Sep 6th. So sad :( I'll miss the kid :( Hopefully he comes back under another name.
All matters between Korea and Japan were officially resolved and Japan has apologized for its crimes numerous times. It is about time the governments of South-Korea and China stop using Japan to distract its population from their domestic failure.
you are miserably mistaken or deliberately misleading.
the domestic 'failure' in japan is much worse than that in either south korea, china or the usa.
with over 200% debt of gdp, japan government is practically running out of money (so they are QEing it)
it's japan who needs to distract its population from its failures, not south korea.
and one more thing, never mind. but you know, japan as is as unrepentant, is utterly without hope. I am so sorry as I have many japanese friends.
But did the Japanese government apologize fully? I've heard of leaders in the Japanese government retracting any of the partial apologies, and I heard of right wing Japanese leaders not supporting any of the apologies.
Japan apologized more than fully, Wikipedia even lists about 50+ official apologies. In San Francisco Japan settled its' war reparations. Concerning Japanese domestic issues: it might be so that Japan has a high debt-to-GDP, but the country actually pays less than 1 percent interest on its debt, making it one of the most highly regarded economies in the world. South-Korea pays double to triple the percentage.
War reparation and apologies for damages for Japanese occupation and war crimes are different.
You are somehow traumatized by Kamikaze attacks or something. You seem to be incapable of objectively looking at the Japan's situation.
Japan has currently fiscal debt of about 200% of GDP. That's true. But that came about because Bank of Japan did not do enough QE in the last 15 years. You got it backwards.
South Korea is known to cause currency crisis every decade or so. Japan has caused none. Their domestic failure must be much bigger than Japan.
I hope you recover from Kamikaze trauma so that you can see the situation in East Asia more clearly.
Almost all of Japan's debt is held by its own citizens/domestic institutions.
A unique situation that makes the debt level more tolerable.
"South Korea is known to cause currency crisis every decade or so."
Then why is it that Korea hasn't suffered an economic crisis in the last decade? Also why is it that the Fitch lowered the credit rating of Japan and raised South Korea's credit, which became the same?
Japan has in fact never fully apologized before, contrary to the article. Even after apologies, they kept denying their wrongdoings in the past. Also, recompensating for past actions do not mean that they APOLOGIZED. Grow up.
No they are not resolved at all.Japan just expreseed "regret" and have not carried out any actions to heal the wounds.She still denies the Nanjing killings of civilians and sex slaves.Apolgy without deeds are meaningless.She hasn't punished most of her war criminal unlike Germany.People in other countries know this.
@Mike Tyson Ironmanin reply to kommonsensesSep 9th, 12:44
'You are somehow traumatized by Kamikaze attacks or something.
actually the japanese people are the victims of 'suicide bomber' (kamikaze in japanese), a cowardly act of terrorism. don't believe me? go check with your emperor or king something, how come he did not become a suicide bomber or taking a kamikaze ride? uh?
like I said before, for the present conflict, it's the japanese government who needs the distraction from the population of its failures, not the south koreas.
South Korea's relations with Japan is complicated, much more so than China's or North Korea. Japan's relations with Korea during colonization was complicated, Japanese colonization of Korea was no worse than what hte Europeans did places like India / Indonesia, In terms of deaths during the War, the number of a deaths in Korea during the War was on the low side relative to China, Singapore, Philippines, Vietnam.
Resistance in Korea against Japanese occupation was relatively muted by the standards of the time, nothing compared to how many people died across Asia resisting Western occupation. In the Philippines, over couple hundred thosand Filipino's died resisting American occupation
In Bali, the royal family committed mass suicide rather than be captured by the Dutch. In Aceh, 100,000 people died out of a population of a 500,000 during the 40 year struggle against teh Dutch.
Another factor, rarely mentioned now, but a prevelant talking point during the Korean War and up until the late 1970s, was the North Koreans and Chinese, justifibly accused the South Korean regime of being American puppets and filled with Japanese collaborators. Just compare Park Chung Hee vs Kim Il Sung. Syngman Rhee, fits the profile of an American puppet, got his BA,MA, PhD in America. Lived twenty years in exile in the US, before going back to Korea after the War. The first ten Commander in Chief of hte ROK military graduated from Japanese military academies, and many served in China. In contrast most of the DPRK generals were made up of anti-Japanese guerilla fighters.
I personally think, Korean should reexamine their history and compare it with others, to see how complicated the Japanese occupation, and the aftermath was. If Japanese occupation was so bad, why wasn't their more resistance? The real danger today, is not Japan of today, but the poisonous legacy Japanese occupation had on Korea. Japan's greatest "gift" to the Korean people is racialized and fascist regime of North Korea. The North Korean regime is model after the facist Japanese state of hte 1920-30s, the focus on racial purity, god worship etc.
Do you want to cheer Japan's colonial rule in Korea? Do you want to tell all Korean,"man,Japanese only raped your wife and daughter,it is a greater gift and kinder than western colonists who would have raped your wife,daughter,mother,sister and all other female,Japanese raped and killed less in Korea than western colonists,blah blah."
All you logic and talk is just a rubbish!
Now it is Japanese,not Korean who need reexamine their history,give a real apology to all the victims in East Asia just as Germany has done after World War II.
totally rubbish !
your selective cut & paste of wikipedia does not match your insult to south koreans. lie no more, hear?
I don't think any American that had to deal with Syngman Rhee would have characterized him as a puppet - He was a very difficult ally, even if a junior partner at that.
I mentioned this on another thread, but find the resumes of the DPRK generals to be quite suspect when it comes to military accomplishments.
Not sure how much "anti-Japanese guerilla fighting" could be confirmed. There is much talk about Kim and others just being Soviet pawns/puppets (Kim having been an officer in Stalin's Red Army).
Certainly they demonstrated anti-Japanese political activism that is much less evident with the original ROK officer corp though..
Its what the DPRK says, the only country that China has a defense treaty is saying about the ROK. Why does the DPRK insist to talk only with the Americans. The Armistice ending the Korean war was never signed between the DPRK and the ROK, only between the Americans, Chinese and the North Koreans, because the Chinese and the DPRK considered the ROK a puppet regime at the time. The insistence of the DPRK in dealing with the Americans is root in the Armistice.
In fact, 20 years ago this was the view of the Chinese Government. Are you saying that that your beloved Chinese government was wrong. There is an element of truth to it. While the Japanese are nominally "US puppets", the South Koreans are on paper -- US Puppets. In times of War, the ROK military falls under direct operational control of the US commander in South Korea (up until 2015 so they say). Check it up.
There is a lot of anti-Japanese feeling on these forums, you can accuse them of being US puppets without pointing fingers at South Korea. Besides the legal aspects, South Korea have fought in Vietnam and participated in far more US led military operations than Japan has.
These are not lies, if you accuse me of lying, you accuse the Chinese Government of lying from 1950-1992. As we all know the PRC never lies.
Maybe Korea was worn out by the suppression of the Tonghak revolt? By the Chinese military, and later by occupying Japanese forces?
Any idea of casualties from that rebellion?
The DPRK generals achievement are quite suspect, but Communist don't really look at just military achievements.
The point I am making to our Chinese posters, many who are so woefully ignorant of Asian history. The US anti-Communist coalition in Asia was one of opportunism. The US recruited South Korean officers who were associated with units that committed war crimes in China during the War. The reason they were reliably anti-Communist and often the ones with combat experience. The US made a deals with some unsavory types to contain Communism.
What I am saying is nothing different than what the PRC government said between 1950-1992, South Korea was US puppet. For this I get accused of by our ignorant pro-Chinese posters for saying something that their beloved Chinese government had been saying for 40+ years. If they don't like something they accuse you of being a liar, even though its not any different than what the Chinese had been saying about the South Koreans prior to the early 1990s. South Korea was last Asian country that the Chinese established relations with (1992). Two years after Indonesia and Singapore.
Maybe you should ask the Americans apologize for Vietnam, the Dutch for Indonesia, what the Americans did in North Korea while you are at it. The Americans never apologized for Philippines. Indonesia has not apologize to Timor Leste. I am going to say something you don't like to hear "Get over it".
I really don't. All I know is the number of rebellions against the Japanese in Korea was a lot less bloody than Filipino resistance against the Americans or Acehnese against the Dutch. If the Koreans were so heroic and the Japanese so cruel, one would expect the slaughter of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. If it was so bad, then why where there so many Korean volunteers joined the Japanese military. People don't like the talk about collaborators, whether French, Korean etc. Again one must remember by 1941, Korea had been under Japanese rule for 30+ years. A whole generation had been brainwashed. Volunteering and becoming an officer in the IJA is not a laughing matter. Its not something that people do to make a living (like a normal foot soldier).
Wow, u really think that there was not many resistances during 1930-40? And what does it do with park jung hee vs kim il sung era? What the hack is your point?
Around 1900, korean empire was about to be developed so much, with their gdp at about $850. What they were lak of was only the military force. The modernization was quite perfect, what they needed was time. Their proper modernization was only started in 1894.
However, Japs invaded and colonized the country and everything had gone into vain.
When korea got independent aftermath, their gdp had gone down to $86. How amazing, eh? Should we thank them for this?
What did japs do? Nothing. Put some railroads and some power plants? That is because they were to invade the bigger continent, china. Korea could have built all of them by themselves, if they had more time and if there was no external force. What japs were after was only for themselves, not for the others.
How many Koreans died died in the resistance? 500,000. Give me figures. I can give you cold herd figures of how many people died in the Philippines resisting American colonization.
Again for the GDP where are your facts? You have none. The point I am making is the Japanese colonization of Korea was no worse than the European colonization of Asia. I did not say Japanese colonization was good, I said it was no better or worse than what the Europeans did. Had the Japanese not invaded China, most Koreans would be speaking Japanese today.
what about 'YOUR' facts? Many GDP in the world around 1900 was investigated in the book 'Angus Maddison, "The World Economy: Historical Statistics" and it has got pretty much information about the economical issues in these era. Hope you are not a Japanese who does not listen to any opinions opposite to yours.
Think logically. Japs were too much in love with their hollow imperialism in the early century, invaded and killed lots of Asian people, why would they do anything for other countries? Do you deny the Pacific War? Do you even deny your invasion to Australia? Well you definitely do not, as I see. It is becasue Those countries you fought were such strong countries in the world at that time, and as a loser, you could never deny things that you have done to Western countries. However, even Japs were defeated, still they were stronger country than any others in the whole Asia. They hid and incinarated almost every evidences after the war, and saying "We are purely innocent, please World, listen to us. What they are saying is all lies, because they have no evidences."
I might be so much ashamed about that.
Even German prime minister still bows and apologizes to all the European countries German invaded during WWII. What has Japs done until now?
And also, the figure does not say everything. 500,000 in Philippine? What about Nanqing? What say you? I have never seen any Japanese that Nanqing massacre existed. Ask any Chinese. They would say "F****** Japs" about that. What does this mean? Have you got any casualty data about Nanqing massacre? Well, Chinese do. However you say "it didn't even exist becasue there is no evidence"
So funny, eh?
'Are you saying that that your beloved Chinese government was wrong.'
on what basis to make you saying that?
and contrary to what you are saying, there is little so called anti-japanese feeling at all. people are against japanese war crimes and japan's unrepentance, not against japanese.
your problem is you twist and make things up and you don't admit it.
you follow every gd china article on TE not unlike some parasite, attacking it by putting words of your own into their mouths, taking sentences out of context, twist or turn or otherwise plagiarizing page upon pages of wikipeida and what not, just like that.
often you don't seem to know what you are talking and may not even aware that you are lying, but you just keep talking nonsense. that's the impression you left to readers like me.
@Bismarck888 in reply to Michael DunneSep 9th, 20:17
' The point I am making to our Chinese posters, many who are so woefully ignorant of Asian history.
now how could you make such a sweeping blanket statement of allegation without feeling being shameful?
They sure beat your cut and paste of wikemedia and stuff.
you may not have a college degree education that I am sure of, but at least try to learn some logic when you make accusation of others.
With the Tonghaks, what I was getting at was:
- The Chinese may have done much of the dirty work, under Yuan Shikai I believe, in carrying out suppression
- The Koreans maybe took a heck of a beating from the Japanese under the cover of the Sino-Japanese War and its aftermath
Hence, the country may have been worn out, expended, resulting in a relative lack of broad based revolts subsequently
Well checking gapminder.com they have figures for per capita GDP. Did I deny it? No, I have not.
As for the American-Philippines War of 1899-1902. The numbers range from 100,000-1 Million. The population of the Philippines was 8 Million at the time.
The official figures from the US government put it at 200,000 over a three year period.
Have the Americans apologized? Its a war crime.
The problem is you just make up stuff, it does not come from anywhere. Some people here are anti-Japanese, particularly you. You are just like the CPC you make up stuff. You can write page and pages of the stuff. In China there is a strong under current of Japanese feeling, and it has not died down. In China its worse than in South Korea It won't die down anytime soon.
Its large part is due to history books.
What about people attacking the Japanese Ambassador's car (no concern for safety of diplomats). Here are recent anti-Japanese incidents in China. Its happens once every 1-2 years.
"The most serious protests appeared to be in Chengdu, where the mob overturned a Japanese-made police car, and in the southern city of Shenzhen, where rioters smashed the windows of Japanese restaurants and businesses. "
That is very smart, the hatred of the Japanese, goes beyond their love of China and respect for the police or Government of China. That police car is tax payer's property. No condemnation by any posters here for destroying government property.
Here are demonstrations in South Korea.
Do you notice anything different. Most of the demonstrators in South Korea are in their 60-70s. Many of them former military etc. They often show up at anti-North Korea demonstrations also. Where are the young people? Its logical that there would be more old people in both the anti-Japanese/anti-North Korean demonstrations in Seoul. Why? Old people have more time, and they knew people who lived through Japanese occupation or experienced the Korean War themselves.
Where are the old people in the Chinese demonstrations?
I really don't know. Because most accounts I read come from Western sources and they only talk about it from a Chinese/Japanese perspective. The Koreans were rarely mentioned. No one can come up with any causalities figures. None of the posters have come up with any causality figures, they all say it was very bad. When the Chinese talk about the Japanese brutality in China, they can come up with figures. So far no one has come up with any figures. All we know was they were really really bad, but how bad?
Its funny how some of the Chinese posters get so upset when I say that the Japanese colonization of Korea was complicated, particularly in the ROK. I further pointed out the DPRK and China in the past accused the ROK of being a puppet of the US and filled with Japanese collaborators, and that I get slammed by pro-Chinese posters ?? Why can't I say something that the Chinese government said from 1950-1992.
You are distorting the topic to gibberish.
What the hack are you trying to say? USA never apologized for any wars they were involved, so Japan does not have to apologize, is this your point?
I have no offense to normal Japanese people. They are nice and fine people if you meet them personally. I quite like their traditions and cultures. However, this problem is way behind that topic isn't it? Your statement was, too.
Chinese got so furious at Japan, so they act at least once in every 1-2 years, ay?
Korean got so furious at Japan, so they assembly and blame Japanese govenment, ay?
Who went wrong? War crime? Or apology-demanding people?
If Japanese ever wanted to be friendly with countries in Eastern Asia, what you should have done was apology and apology and apologies.
Do they ask you for money? They have no interest in money. Korea and China got pretty wealthy in past half century, what they need is never a single coin.
Comfort women victims are now over 90 years old. Do you even try to understand why they are still fighting for their rights?
Money? No. Very tiny little apology then they shall pass away in a great peace. However what does Japanese government says?
"Those comfort women were none but only prostitutes."
If I were this f****** government, I would say "Sorry and sorry and sorry" So all the smeared past got cleared and make peace between countries. But they have never said a simple and short word. If you still do not understand what I am talking about, you are deeply into far-right Japanese media. I would be so sorry if you are.
Mr. Bismarck, if Japanese government goes the way the far-right people follow, those countries could never make a peace eternally. Would you give a hand to someone who bullied and punched you? Have you seen how much donation was done from Korea when Fukushima got earthquaked? Some stupid far-right people say "There should have been stronger earthquake", but that does not represent the whole people in the country, but only a few. You could not say a word if you see the media about assembly of far-right Japanese people. Still, this does not represent the whole Japan. Hope you have got ears and eyes to listen and understand what I am trying to say.
You are getting emotional. There are right crazies in every country, Hungary, Russia, Korean. I am deeply into right wing Japanese media? I don't even read it.
I think Japanese should apologize for what they do to China and those countries it invaded in 1937 and 1941. As for Japanese occupation of South Korea between 1910-1945, I don't think the Japanese should apologize, and I don't think they will. The South Korean argument is two fold 1) Comfort Women 2) Japanese Occupation. The first they might get an apology, the second not in your life or mine.
So far you haven't shown me what the Japanese did that was any less brutal than what the Americans did in the Philippines or what the Dutch did in Indonesia. The Japanese do have a point with regard to colonization of Korea and Taiwan, what did they that was so bad relative to the Europeans. If the Japanese apologize for the colonization of South Korea, than the Filipino will ask for compensate and apology from the Americans, Indonesians toward the Dutch etc.
Its why the Western governments are not adamant in forcing the Japanese to apologize. If they really wanted to, the British, French, Americans can put pressure on Japan to apologize, compensate Western POW etc. You never asked yourself why is the West relatively silent about the whole apology thing. British POW have not been compensated individually.
Koreans are unique among Asians (with the exception of Thais) in that they were never colonized by Western powers, Koreans don't see the potential among other Asians for asking for compensation for damage done by colonization. It opens a can of worms.
"You could not say a word if you see the media about assembly of far-right Japanese people. Still, this does not represent the whole Japan. Hope you have got ears and eyes to listen and understand what I am trying to say."
The problem is you are putting words in to my mouth. Or making me to be a Japanese apologist. I am not. Do I have to show how many Japanese people I beat in my life to show I don't love Japanese people. While I can sympathize with China, Philippines etc demanding an apology from the Japanese, But, I don't think what the Japanese did in Korea warrants an apology, if that is the case, then the Americans should apologize for the Philippines. Why single out the Japanese for their colonization of Korea? I don't see anything comparable in Korea/Taiwan to the hundreds of thousands massacred in the Philippines by the Japanese, or the millions killed in China.
No country likes being ganged up, whether Japan, China or Germany. That is what I see happening in these forums. People trying to equate bring in Japanese war atrocities in China when arguing about what Korean should do. Some Chinese hardliners are pressing the Chinese government join forces with Russia, ROK to gang up on Japan over territorial disputes. Luckily the Chinese government is not so stupid. That approach opens a can of worms for China, and the Chinese government knows that. China's problems with Japan, are solely China's, Korea's problems with Japan, are Korea's.
Oh, then what is the point that you have brought that youtube clip to show everyone else about demonstrations in South Korea? Who got emotional first? You are talking exactly like right side Japanese do. "Give an evidence, give an evidence" dumb repetition. Can you give proper evidence about that Korea has got less victims than other Asian countries? Do you even know about Ganto massacre and unit 731? That is just a few part of it, but contains a lot of meaning. Both are denied by Japanese government because there is no evidence. Disposing documentated evidence is so easy, but the problem is that it was not even 100 years ago. Some people experienced that time are still alive and keep saying "They have done it". However it is all dinied due to no evidence. You are still saying that "Korea does not have to be apologized because Korea got less violated than other Asian countries. Japanese do not have to apology about their colonization upon Korea" Have I ever mentioned about colonization? It's been mostly about "War Crime" not the colonization itself. You are saying that this Japanese colonization was fair and right because they did less harm to Korean people than other Asian countries during the time? Rubbish. You are saying exactly like that "The Germans do not have to apologize to any other countries except to Jews, because they did less harm to other countries than to Jews."
The casualty might be less, but millions of people got pressed into the war and labor.
The Western governments are the 3rd eye in Asia. They keep themselves neutral, and do not give any opinions to either of Asian countries. There is no profit at all from Japanese apology. Why should they waste such time to do that? Japan is now a strong ally to them, they do not want this to be snapped.
Also, don't you bring the data about the relationship between Philippine and USA. 'Because USA did not apologize about their War Crime, Japan do not have to as well'?
Blockheaded opinion.
"You are saying that this Japanese colonization was fair and right because they did less harm to Korean people than other Asian countries during the time? Rubbish. "
Its not about fairness. Japan will only do as much as other countries have done. Germany has never apologized for Namibia, only expressed regret. Why? Their view is (rightly so), that Germany colonization was minor relative to Britain and France. Why should it only be the one to apologize. Same for Japan.
Germany has offered apologies to each country/people individually. You can go on about war crimes in China, and try to piggy back on it. But one all is said and done, the Japanese will apologize to countries individually.
Unit 713 activities were all done in China / Manchuria. Almost all the victims were Chinese/Russians. Does Korea deserve an apology for those units activities? Did I say that Germans only have to apologize to the Jews, I said they apologize to each country/people individually. I will tell you how I see the Chinese government views these matters (ie not the Chinese posters) they will never gang up on Japan with Korea and others over war crimes etc. China was a victim of that in the past (Opium war), and was still suffers from that now (South China Sea). Furthermore, China likes to operate alone.
"The Western governments are the 3rd eye in Asia. They keep themselves neutral, and do not give any opinions to either of Asian countries. There is no profit at all from Japanese apology. Why should they waste such time to do that? Japan is now a strong ally to them, they do not want this to be snapped."
Now you are arguing that the the West is pragmatic, that they don't care about thousands of POW and civilians that died and suffered at the hands of the Japanese. Again you assume only Asians suffered, or more precisely East Asians. while the West (or more precisely America) excused Japan, as well as many South Korean soldiers who were in IJA units that participated in War crimes, because they needed all the anti-Communist they could find. Its pragmatism, something they should have learned in Iraq. But now, the West can criticize Japan if thy wanted to, who will the Japanese turn too, China??
The main reason why the West does not make a big fuss, is because they have moved on. So have most of SEA.
The reason why China and South Korea make a big fuss is territorial disputes. If it was not for the territorial disputes these things would have been far less emotional.
Conspiracy theory or not, taking note that both S. Korea and Japan are strong allies of the US and parties to the US presence in Asia Pacific, the present dispute between S.K. and Japan suggests to me that, it could be
1. either a sign of utter diplomatic failure of the US "China containment" doctrine being carried out in the area supposedly with the "iron clad triangle" of the US, S.K. and Japan and others in some unified front, or else
2. some deliberate attempt to teach Japan who the boss is.
The reasoning is the following:
It's highly unusual to have S.K. and Japan to be thrown into such scalding tantrums yet of such non-essential issue when the US was just about to launch its major military exercises with S.K. as well as with Japan. (It eventually did anyway in the heat of the "dog fight".)
The dispute was entirely avoidable if the US wanted it to, unless its magic wand is losing luster and pull over S.K. and Japan, a highly unlikely scenario.
The question is then why the US did not stop the fight and why it kept its eerie silence on the matter publicly? Was it because that other disputes in South China Sea being fanned up at some cost is in the way? If that being the case, it can only suggest that "China containment" policy is failing.
Another plausible explanation is that this dispute itself could be a deliberate warning to Japan in effect that Japan (and Korea for that matter) should better stay in the American sphere of prosperity and security, nice and snug, and none of that listless motions vying for "more independence from the US" stuff that is seemingly gaining some currency now in Japan.
The so called "restoration" or "Constitutional change" advocated recently by Japanese with new conservatives or right wingers among them , the "ASEAN +3" or "ASEAN + Japan", oil deal with Iran, non-Dollar denominated currency swap agreements and other tale telling deals Japan made since the past few Japanese administrations, plus Japan's lack of enthusiasm of TPP, a US endorsed trade block in Pan Pacific, are making the US nervous about Japan's future direction IMO.
Since Japan is now having island issues with not just S.K., but also with China and Russia at the same time. This S.K.-Japan conflict should serve well to drive Japan back home to the firm hold of the US.
More Japanese freedom in the US-Japan relation? I don't know about that. But that the whole thing is like what that lullaby mother said: No more little monkey jumping on that bed.
' No more little monkey jumping on that bed.'
nicely put but the us isn't worried about japan's insubordination. it has japan chained pretty good. no matter what 'new conservatives' say, or how tough said, it is a fact that japanese are citizens of a vassal state.
people should know that japan owes everything to americans, including the throne of japanese king or emperor. if you don't believe me, go check what favors general douglas macarthur did give japan.
Not everything is about the US. Not everything in the world is an issue for the US.
It is difficult for provincialist America to understand that the world was here before America and will be after.
Gosh Americans should keep themselves out of others' business. They think they can do anything, when they only know one language and one culture.
I doubt this:
"Another plausible explanation is that this dispute itself could be a deliberate warning to Japan"
- The US and Japan have been quietly working very closely together on ABM technologies;
- The US earned a huge boost in goodwill for support during the huge earthquake/tsunami
- Seems the move of 8,000 or 9,000 marines is preceding
Would seem odd to let some territory dispute bloom to say detract Japanese from deployments of Osprey, and that bit is the only minor blotch on a pretty close relationship. Especially one that gets in the way of closer cooperation between South Korea, Japan and the US vis-a-vis North Korea, which ranks far higher up the list of US priorities than TPP, currency swaps, etc.
I think Occam Razer applies here, and the likely explanation is that all sorts of headaches just burst onto the scene after simmering under the radar in matters of governing and diplomacy.
Don't think the US is nervous about Japan's commitment to TPP. If the Japanaese turn away, well the US would still have its work cut out implementing TPP with other countries at a time when the US public has soured on free trade agreements (don't hear much happy talk over NAFTA for example).
All that should be considered rationally about Takeshima/ Dokto issue is the San Francisco Accord made in 1952, the latest lawful decision made, against which Syngman Rhee (Yi Seungman) alleged his declaration of the Syngman Rhee Line, followed by Korean occupancy up until now. Other things often attached in relation to this issue between Japan and Korea have no relevance - though some seem to argue as if they did.
As for the Senkakus, which is another, different, individual problem, the islands have to be also protected by international law - meaning that in defiance to the current decision made by Japan's DPJ administration, presentation at ICJ may become necessary to let the international society know the islands' exclusivity of jurisdiction to Japan.
The San Francisco treaty only names three major islands.Now Korea has 3000 + islands so are you saying any island not mentioned in treaty must not belong to Korea?That's very convenient way of interpreting the law in favour of Japan.
I don't get your point - maybe I might not be as wise as you are. I'd leave your argument to those who deserve discussing your views with appropriate wisdom.
What about giving a half rock to Japan.. and the other half rock to South Korea? WOlud it keep them in peace?
South Korea should be more concerned in how to integrate to North Korea... as more time passes, more expensive it'll be!
And it'll be harder than singing on islets with japaneses!
Open your eyes, Koreans!!!
How old are you Entusiasta?? Do you live on an island, or something? This comment on North Korea is more idiotic than the one you made comparing Korea to Argentina.
You obviously are too young to know how the world works. Why would Korea give you half of its island. The topic should not be about Dokdo, that is Korean for a fact, really we should be talking about how Japan stole Daemado from Korea.
While we are talking about other problems, maybe Japan should focus on its own other problems, like how degrading your culture is turning....
It's not about Korea giving a half rock, but ACCEPTING it.
I am sure Korea would not accept anything.
Does Japan have any presence in Dokdo?? As long as you dont, then the issue come about giving, not about accepting. Right??
In that matter, maybe the fight should be over Daemado.
You robbed Japan of takeshima islands.
We will regain them at any costs.
And we ill punish the north and south koreans for their abductions of japanese citizens.
How about we share your home and bank account 50-50? Or perhaps, since Mexico has a legitimate claim to much of the western US, we give them California?
Sound fair?
I have a feeling you'd disagree about anything that was yours, but would be willing to share anything that belongs to someone else.
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