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I salute The Economist editors for writing this brave and true article in a time when even the US presidents have been afraid of Israel and its lobbies. Bravo.
Mr Obama should tell Israel, if it fails to be flexible or just, that America's defence of it in every diplomatic forum can no longer be guaranteed. Probabaly the best thing I have ever heard from the Economist. Anyone who disagrees with that comment clearly has their prime loyalty to Israel and not the US.
He also ought to tell the Gazans that lobbing rockets is not helpful.
BTW any one who agrees with your comment is at the least an Al Queda supporter. Or maybe an ally of the Muslim Brotherhood. Who allied themselves with Germany in WW2. Why? Well there was a certain group of people they mutually hated. Brits and Jews.
Mein Kampf is still a best seller in the ME. You are not a buyer are you?
@ML Simon: you seem to represent the very type of paranoid dogmatist the Economist is referring to (albeit in a more diplomatic way than I am). just try to see past your standard victimhood line and understand that criticism of Israel is not the same as antisemitism.
MLSImon - what you just tried is a well known pro-Zionist tactic of dismissing any criticism of Israel as being anti-semetic in order to silence off any criticism.
We all have the full right to criticize Israel of its crimes. Israel is not above the rest of us, and to state that criticizing Israel makes a man a terrorist or Nazi sympathizer is racism itself. My alliegance is to America, not Israel.
The main problem is your religion. The devout Jews and Christian zionists believe that Jews are the chosen race of their god and that this guarantees Israel a free pass. Your fairytale beliefs are part of the problem, not the solution.
You said: "… anti-semetic"
HE SAID NO SUCH THING! He did say CORRECTLY that:
1. "(The Arabs)… allied themselves with Germany in WW2."
2. "Mein Kampf is still a best seller in the ME …"
He DID NOT SAY 'ANTI-SEMITIC' … although siding with the Nazis and making Mein Kampf a perrenial bestseller does give 'one pause' … hmm
You said: "The main problem is your religion"
If you're an American … ones religion is a matter of conscience … protected by the FREE SOCIETY in which YOU live … you can be as devout or secular as YOU wish … DON'T IMPOSE your beliefs on OTHERS! The Jewish religion is not the MAIN PROBLEM it's YOUR THOUGHTS!
Actually, perhaps you should work on your reading and comprehension skills. He accused the original poster of being an Al Qaeda sympathizer and accused him of reading Mein Kampf as well. We know exactly what he meant. The original poster's comment didn't fit into Israel's propaganda narrative, so he was accused of being a racist/anti-Semite (which is exactly the accusation by bringing Al Qaeda and Mein Kampf into the discussion).
Furthermore, freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion. People with these nutcase views believe in a RACIST god that would make one group of people his "chosen" ones above everyone else - these types of people should keep their racist idelogy to themselves. They should have NO room in our system of government. It's because these people have infiltrated Congress directly and via special interests groups such as AIPAC that America constantly gives Israel a free pass. We treat the Israeli government as if they literally descended from the heaven described in the Bible - as if these perfect creatures could never make any mistake. This is the problem. You and your supporters need to realize you're not above the law.
How many Jews are there in the USA? Less than 6 MILLION!
How come YOU'RE afraid?
The fact is … when polled … Americans are on the Israeli/Jewish/Zionist side of the Arab/Israel Conflict BY A SIGNIFICANT MARGIN!!! Christians are on the side of Israel … there are MANY MANY CHRISTIANS IN THE UNITED STATES … have you got a problem with that?
It's not about GOD … it's about the fact the AMERICAN PEOPLE … see both sides and they like the Jewish/Zionist/Israeli POSITION !!! IT'S QUITE SIMPLE.
Uh-oh! Sounds like someone is throwing a hissy fit.
Nobody said anything about the six million or however many Jews there are in Israel. You're just mad that there are people like me who want to stop Israel from leeching off our hard earned money. Sure Christians support Israel - actually, Christianity is on the decline in America. Atheism is growing. The beliefs in fairytales are becoming a thing of the past. And to say that even the majority of Americans want to support Israel is a lie. Most of us don't want anything to do with the Middle East. If you are the chosen people of your god (LOL), then is it too much to expect if we ask you to learn to fight your own battles? Why do you come crying to us then? And why do you keep leeching off our money?
Nobody here is afraid is Israel other than some corrupt politicians due to pressure from Israeli lobbies. Although, I do think you responding to my legitimate criticism of Israel with personal attacks towards me shows how scared you are. And you should I be - definitely. Your policy towards the Palestinians has been disasterous. More and more people are waking up here at home to the power of the Israeli lobbies. Arabs are multiplying at a crazy rate, even within Israel. However, I don't think your arrogance alone is enough to hide your ignorance.
You said: "Most of us don't want anything to do with the Middle East"
Tell that to your Congressman/woman … BUT when polled … Americans consistently take the Israeli side on the Arab/Israeli Conflict!
"A Pew Research poll from earlier this year found that 46% of Americans believe US support for Israel is "about right"; 22% say America is too supportive, and a nearly equal percentage, 20%, say America is not supportive enough."
See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/19/us-public-opinion-is...
I'm a NON-BELIEVER AS WELL … but I am a member of the Jewish People!
As a member of a tiny minority group on Planet Earth (13.5 MILLION ONLY) … JEWS have a right to be scared BUT NOW that they have a sovereign state to look after their own affairs … they are MUCH LESS AFRAID … it's the Arab/Muslims that need to be afraid!
The issue of demographics is clear … ISRAEL will need to maintain a Jewish majority in order to remain a sovereign democratic nation. BTW … the Jewish birthrate in Israel is HIGHER than the Arab birthrate! You could say them Jews are 'catching up' … they're quite motivated to have children and willing to educate them as well! Inshallah
These little polls mean nothing. The country is heavily divided over Israel. Sure the right-wing Christian nutcases support Israel fully because it helps them achieve their end of times prophecies and even then they believe all get murdered except for the few who convert to their cult.
Here's another poll that shows division.
Among the atheist camp, Israel doesn't have majority backing. Most of us want the fairytale believing people of the Middle East to figure out their stuff and if it means they're all going to kill each other, so be it.
Oh and the issue with Arab birth rates in Israel threatening Jewish birth rates is real.
My solution is to cut off all money going towards Israel. It's a criminal government, no less crazy than Hamas. Anyone who sends them money should be charged with giving aid to a foreign terrorist group. It might not happen immediately, but it's going to happen within my life time for sure, and people such as yourselves, who think that it is their birthright to fight wars using other people's hard earned money - who believe that gentiles were made to serve Jews - it's going to be equally as bad for you.
You said: "It might not happen immediately … within my life time for sure … using other people's hard earned money"
That's your wish/prophecy? And you don't believe in fairy tales? Why is it that those with the least amount of $$$ always look at Jews and believe "gentiles were made to serve Jews" … tell me why that is?
This is what I wish for you … JARHEAD … a long life in your basement apartment living on food stamps … you'll get to see your prophecy DENIED … that's my wish!
I played golf in California with a conspiracy theorist a couple of weeks ago … on the 2nd or 3rd hole … he asked me 'Did I ever read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?' … when I read your posts I see his 'ugly' face !!!
Looks like someone stopped giving you your medications. It upsets you so much that other people might stop feeding Israel that you start wishing ill upon me and throw insults at me for stating that it might happen.
And nice dodge trying to say I read racist texts for pointing out the Jewish belief that "gentiles are made to serve Jews". One of your top rabbis said that. Perhaps you should try to control your own racist people and stop the spread of your racist ideology before you go on online forums and insult people you don't even know.
All you know how to do is blame others. People are posting here saying we should stop funding Israeli criminals, and you simply respond back by saying that arabs and muslims and brown people are the evil ones as if that somehow justifies Israeli crimes. Seriously though, you should start taking your medications again.
Israeli Elections - Election Tampering
The Economist says: "Mr Obama made two bad mistakes vis-à-vis Israel. ... Second, after persuading Mr Netanyahu to suspend the building of Jewish settlements on the West Bank, he failed to have a Plan B in case Israel refused—as it did—to stick with it."
Strange logic here by the Economist, or selective memory. The point of the freeze was, by Obama's own plan was (1) get the Palestinians to negotiations, (2) get Arab states to make reciprocal goodwill gestures. Neither came through.
Why does the Economist think that Obama's mistake was not to extend the freeze after it failed to get results? My own recollection of events is that Obama, after toying with a possible three-month extension of the freeze, dropped it completely, realizing the Palestinians won't show up. The Economist remembers differently, but what was, according to the Economist, the point of an extension?
"The point of the freeze was, by Obama's own plan was (1) get the Palestinians to negotiations, (2) get Arab states to make reciprocal goodwill gestures."
Not colonising the West Bank isn't "goodwill" it's what is expected under international law. When other countries like Iraq take their neighbour's land (Kuwait) we fight to drive them out.
Abbas got to the negotiation table before the freeze expired, so it did get "results". Bibi could have extended it a couple of months to see how the negotiations went. But he was obviously not interested in anything the negotiations could yield, just in showing the world he was willing to make "compromises". Any outcome from negotiations would be negative compared to the status quo given Netanyahu's political stance, so he will only make political moves as long as they don't alter the status quo.
Hey FROY,I just wondered how is gravity in that alternative universe you live in. Is it atractive or repelling?
It was unfortunate that it was framed as a "freeze", as a "sign of good will". It's sort of a no-brainer. Israel has no business building there. Period! They should take their good will and stick it where the sun don't shine. If the international community had the cahones to apply international law to the tangled web that is the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, it would unravel fairly swiftly. That is what Obama should, but won't, insist on.
This ediot is sanctimonious and comes across as conceited, suggesting that the defense of Israel's right to exist is conditional on managing "this newspaper's goodwill". Ugh. The Jew's right to a homeland in Israel should not even be up for debate, like any other country, much less be contingent on goodwill. This special treatment of Israel and Jews borders far too much on anti-semitism for my liking.
There are no absolute rights when it comes to who gets to call a piece if real estate "their" country. Nation states survive because their people are tied together by a common culture that permits the country to act cohesively and make rationale, civilized decisions. In order to be a "real" country you have to be economically viable and be able to defend yourself. In the long term, you have to reach an understanding with your neighbors that permits each party to pursue its own path, while getting along in the neighborhood. The map is littered with tribes, clans or religions with flags.
True. It is only your land as long as you can hold it.
BTW if you look closely the Israelis are covertly allied with the Saudis over their mutual enemy Iran.
You see. This attitude is precisely Israels problem. If Israel shows goodwill and gets no response in return from the other side, the critics of Israel just change the rules and claim that what Israel did was not a concession but only a small part of what it is obliged to do anyhow by the etrenal and objective laws of morality. Clearly, if Israel were to offer the Palestinians all of the territory west of the 1949 armistice line in return for peace and the Palis rejected, noyhing will change. The bon ton will become that as long as Israel has not offered the right of return or some territory from within the green line, most of the blame is on Israel. Your damned if you do your damned if you don't. Apparently, the lesson Israel should draw is that it should always show as little flexibility as possible.
The reason is simple - both countries (KSA and Israel) are post-WW2 "man-made" theocratic states. A mere blip in history.
You said: "(Israel is a) … "man-made" theocratic state"
"Having a state religion is not sufficient to be a theocracy. Many countries have a state religion without government directly deriving its powers from a divine authority, or direct government powers exercised by religious authority."
HOWEVER … YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT SAUDI ARABIA … since Theocracy is defined as "… a form of government in which a deity is officially recognized as the civil Ruler and official policy is governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group."
Military dominance tends to be transitory. This is especially for a small country where the defense budget takes a large % of GNP. I would not take too much comfort from "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The Sunni royal house of Saudi Arabia and Israel recognize Shia Iran as a serious mutual threat. It is a cooperation based on convenience. I'll wager that when the Saudis and the Israelis meet, they each "sup with a long spoon"
Has the Economist gone off the deep end? What part of the Palestinians' "NO" did you not understand?
The part where they applied for recognition to the UN on the 67 borders. Israel does not need to consult the Palestinians. They haven't bothered in the past. They've expanded unilaterally, withdrawn unilaterally, built their wall unilaterally, taken the water unilaterally etc etc. If they built their wall very close to the 67 borders then the Palestinians would rejoice.
The 'Wall' is 'taking up' approximately 3% to 5% of the land of the West Bank … which Israel has offered offsets INSIDE present day ISRAEL. So … what's your point.
He does not have a point, because he is ignorant.
The Israelis have taken so much of the West Bank illegally that a genuine TSS is obviously not what they have in mind. It looks like they want to annex the 62% of the West Bank they control completely. The Jewish Home party want to do it straight away.
"Has the Economist gone off the deep end?"
No. They are reverting to British tradition.
You said: "The Israelis have taken so much of the West Bank illegally …"
Huh? UN242 states that Israel DOES NOT HAVE TO WITHDRAW FROM ALL TERRITORIES … FURTHERMORE … THEY WILL HAVE TO END UP WITH SECURE AND DEFENSIBLE BORDERS … AFTER AN END OF CONFLICT SETTLEMENT!
So the idea that the 1967 Green Line is a 'holy' … unbreakable … border is FOOLISH … it was the 1949 ARMISTICE LINE renamed and existing in 1967 for NO OTHER REASON than that the Arab/Muslims WERE UNWILLING TO NEGOTIATE A FINAL PEACE AGREEMENT AFTER 1949 …
GUESS WHAT … THEY STILL HAVEN'T ALL SIGNED ON TO A PEACE AGREEMENT … only Egypt and then Jordan have made such agreements …
You know the 'Libertarian Party' of the USA has some 'wacky' ideas too!
You know the 'BNP' of Britain have some 'wacky' ideas too!
BUT … the Jewish Home Party can't have 'wacky' ideas? Is that UN-democratic of YOU?
If and when they are in 'control' of Israel … you can 'rag' on them but up until then … they're just ANOTHER VOICE among many … competing to get heard!
"You said: "The Israelis have taken so much of the West Bank illegally …"
Huh? UN242 states that Israel DOES NOT HAVE TO WITHDRAW FROM ALL TERRITORIES
It does in effect. The only minor adjustment for fina borders is to be done on a one-for-one basis not as an excuse to take more land. Maybe you should go back and actually read it.
UN242 says NOTHING ABOUT … "… a one-for-one basis"
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYxLWUKwWo
Get your information STRAIGHT … you'll need some research but that's all you'll need to do … afterwards … you'll be informed!
I hear this argument that Israel's settlements take up only 4% of the land and therefore "It's no big deal:" the Palestinians can still get a viable state. This argument is about as good as the jail wardens explaining to the prisoners that the walls, guards and fences "only take up 4%" of the prison footprint on the land.
It is not the magnitude, but the structure of the 4% that maters. One study of the map shows the similarity of this 4% to that of a prison: Palestinians trapped into tiny "Bantustan" ringed by fences, guns and Jewish only roads.
If Israel only controls 4% of the WB, then let's see Israel swap with the Palestinians and get the 96%.
You obviously have never actually looked at a map of the proposed settlement blocs.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYxLWUKwWo
You know … that the Arafat and Abbas were offered 96% BUT THEY DIDN'T ACCEPT THE DEAL
Maybe you should become the leader of the Arab/Muslims and YOU accept and become the 'father' of a new state
PS … You'd better wear BULLET PROOF AND BOMB PROOF ATTIRE … there's those 'other' guys … HAMAS … who are in the 3 No's mode:
no recognition
no talking
no peace
They might be after your '-ss'
Dear writer when you'r going to realize who we dealing with when it comes to the Palestinians and their intentions? your blind.
There is an assumption in all of the proposals for two states, that requires removal of the Israeli settlers in remote (20,000), far flung (100,000), close (350,000) and including suburban (650,000).
Including the #and# proposal of revised borders AND forced removal of Jewish west bank residents is unnecessary to my, and Palestinian prime minister Fayyad's view, if I understand him right (necessary to even Abbas though).
An alternative proposal is to allow the settlers to remain in the West Bank as Palestinian citizens with full and equal civil rights, if they desire to remain. Changes would occur in the settlements however. The settlements would no longer be segregated Jewish only, no longer any pretense of state expansion, and would likely be subject to compensation for any historical forced taking.
What that proposal does facilitate is much less obstacles to clarification of the contentious riddle of maze borders. It clearly eliminates a great deal of political animosity associated with the prospect of mass forced removal.
It demands that both Israel and Palestine, as separate nations, afford minorities full and equal civil rights in both nations. It demands that Israel and Palestine reconcile and establish trade, transit and other cooperative protocols.
It would certainly promote co-operation. And it would allow orthodox jews who view a jewish presence in the ancient Judea and Samaria as vital, to stay. Such a deal might even promote democratic development if its shaped in such a way that it would discourage populist rhetoric and populist solutions.
I can't see many Israeli citizens choosing to live in a Palestinian state. The living standards would be much lower. Israel has wrecked the economy of the OPT since the beginning of the Oslo Accords.
Leaving Jews/Zionists/Israelis as citizens of the Arab/Muslim state would be FOOLISH … they would be subject to harm by extremists … kidnapping … murder … mass murder etc
This would provoke ISRAEL to take action on behalf of its 'kin' … and this would/could lead to MORE VIOLENCE!!!
Palestinian negotiators offered just that to Israel, as leaked papers showed. Tzipi Livni flatly rejected such a possibility. That's why all the argument about Palestinians wanting a "Judenrein" state is a big fat red herring. This is not about the rights of the settlers to live in their (illegally built) homes. It's about Israel acquiring more territory through its "facts on the ground" policies. Pure and simple territorial lust.
I think the Arabs have been quite adapt at wrecking their own economy. You should read the economist's report that spots leaders of Hamas driving Hummers and Porsches.
You said: "… Palestinians wanting a "Judenrein" state is a big fat red herring …"
Abbas has CLEARLY stated NO JEWS ALLOWED in Palestine! Frankly, the 'other' Palestinian State, JORDAN, has mandated the same thing into their 'LAW CODE'
The Jewish State is content with the land it has … AS LONG AS NO MORE ARAB/MUSLIMS ARE INCLUDED … that's not racist … it's just REALISTIC … the whole idea of a JEWISH STATE … is for it to be PREDOMINANTLY Jewish … no hard feelings … but there's a necessity for a SOVEREIGN JEWISH STATE …
I just finished watching a film … 'Before Your Eyes' … it's a Kurdish/German film taking place in modern day Turkey. The Kurds need their own state as well … it's obvious … they're continually getting the 'shaft' from Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran … with some help … they'll get their state soon. Jews were in a similar situation for 2 Millennia … but NOW they have a sovereign state to look after them … the Arab/Muslims can 'HUFF AND PUFF' but they can't get in! The IDF is the best diplomatic tool the Israelis have to date … without it there would be NO STATE OF ISRAEL.
Building housing in occupied land isn't exactly sound policy anyways. They have already accepted huge risks.
I thought you said palestinians don't exist as a people, how can Jordan be a palestinian state then?
I agree with that thought … "Building housing in occupied land isn't exactly sound policy …"
You asked: "how can Jordan be a palestinian state then?æ
MORE THAN … 50% of the population of JORDAN is 'Palestinian' that is, from Arab/Muslims who lived in Mandate Palestine at one time! So I called 'a spade a spade' …
It staggers me that the Palestinians don't offer this more publicly. Their failure to do so does them no credit and (sadly, this is probably the more important point) is a PR failure
"It demands that both Israel and Palestine, as separate nations, afford minorities full and equal civil rights in both nations."
ISRAEL already affords minorities full and equal civil rights within the borders of the Jewish State!
However, Abbas says NO JEWS in 'his state' to be! So once again … Jews might/could accept this proposal BUT Arab/Muslims reject it OUTRIGHT!
YOU DIDN'T GET IT FTIG! It's JEWS WHO PROPOSED THIS NOT ARABS! LOL
I can see the two-state solution as the only viable solution for peace with the Palestinians as the one state solution would mean apartheid- anathema to most Israelis.
Unfortunately Israelis are tired of trying to find compromises with the Palestinian leadership who have insisted that even in a two- state solution Palestinians would have the right to return to the Israeli part if his parents or grandparents lived there in the past. For Israelis this would mean that demographicaly Israel would be swamped with returning Arabs and within a period of time this too would be a Palestinian state!
Without real compromise from both sides nothing will be achieved and this applies as much to the Palestinians as to the Israelis.
Settlements can always be dismantled if the Israeli population really believed they have a partner in peace. If not the right wing block will only get stronger and more crackpot ideas will be aired.
God Bless Israel!
Indeed!!! But why???
Because it's G-d chosen people.
Spelling mistake - in English, it is spelled God. Anyway, I assume that you are referring to the ghost writer of several horror novels (involving genocide, ethnic cleansing, group sex, incest, etc.) dozens of centuries ago. The problem is that now the world has 7 billion people - around 5 billion people (the vast majority) think God does not exist. The balance 2 billion people claim that they have a closer link to God. The planet will be a happier place if God (if he exists) shows up to sort out the mess that he has created, by sending different messages to different people, via different prophets. He needs to get his act together - unless he enjoys violence (as documented in the OT).
You assume a lot, and all your assumptions are wrong, where are not undiluted bovine stool (BS for short).
Those who bless Israel will be blessed my friend.
"Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing" (Genesis 12:1 & 2).
"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" (Genesis 12:3).
Thank you - and now is the time to implement other verses from the OT:
"Moses responds to God's anger by ordering his army to kill the five kingdoms of Midianites. These were the same people that had welcomed Moses with open arms when he originally fled from Egypt after murdering an Egyptian. They even allowed him to marry one of their women. We now see how Moses repays their kindness: his army kills all the men and captures their women and children. When Moses sees the thousands of captives, he gets angry because it was the Midianite women which caused the Israelite men to stray from God's commandments in the first place. Moses says to his soldiers, "Have you kept the women alive? They are the reason God sent that plague to kill 24,000 of us." He then commanded his army to kill all the boy children and all the women who were not virgins. The Bible doesn't tell us how they determined who was a virgin but we can imagine it was a humane and caring exam based on the past record of God's people. The Israelites then kept all the virgin girls for themselves, dividing them up along with the livestock - Numbers 31.
"Joshua proceeds to utterly destroy the kingdoms of Lachish, Makkedah, the Gibeonites, the Libnahites, the Eglonites, the Hebronites and the Debirites. The five main kings were captured and Joshua had his men place their "feet" (genitals?) on the necks of these kings. Afterwards he killed the kings and hung their bodies in trees for all to see. The fact that his men putting their "feet" on the necks of the kings hadn't already killed them strengthens the theory that it was their genitals which the Israelites placed on the necks of the kings as an insult. The kings of the other cities were killed and laid on the ruins of their cities just like the king of Jericho. The Bible sums up all the horrifying bloodshed by saying, "So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded." - Joshua 10:27-40.
"While spying for more lands to invade, the Israelite tribe of Dan finds a peaceful city of pagans who are quietly keeping to themselves. The men of God descend upon the unsuspecting people of the city and kill them with the sword. Then they burned the pagan city - Judges 18:27-29.
"Once David becomes king, the Amalekites invade his kingdom. Unlike the bloody conquests of the Israelites, the "heathen" Amalekites burn the captured city but they don't kill anyone, "great or small." David pursues them and slays the Amalekites while they are camping. None of the captured Israelites had been harmed by the Amalekites, in contrast to the bloodbath the Israelites had been conducting against the Amalekites. The true morality of the godly versus the ungodly is revealed once more - 1 Samuel 30:1-19.
"One of God's chosen people killed the king of Israel and sat on the throne only to be replaced by another who killed him, then another killed that one. This king of God's chosen people went to a city and killed everyone in it. He also took the pregnant women and "ripped them up." - 2 Kings 15:16.
"When the tribe of Benjamin was nearly exterminated, the leaders of Israel had decreed that they wouldn't allow any of their women to marry the men of the tribe of Benjamin (Judges 21:1). Without women, the tribe was doomed to become extinct, so the leaders of Israel came up with a plan to get wives for the Benjamites (Judges 21:2-4). They called for a council meeting but didn't send out an invitation to one of the minor tribes. When there were no representatives from that tribe present at the council meeting (Judges 21:5-9), the leaders declared that the minor tribe that hadn't shown up would have all of its people that weren't virgin women of marrying age, slayed (Judges 21:10-11). The surviving women would then be given to the men of the tribe of Benjamin (Judges 21:12-13). After the virgin women of the minor tribe were redistributed to the Benjamites, it was discovered that there were still not enough women to keep the Benjamites viable as a tribe (Judges 21:14). The leaders then decided that it would be best for the Benjamites to go to a festival and simply kidnap the daughters that came out to dance. If the fathers of the kidnapped daughters came to complain, the leaders planned to tell them, "it's better that they were kidnapped than that they were the spoils of the war which we could have declared on you." (Judges 21:19-22). The Benjamites did what the leaders told them to do, kidnapping an unknown number of virgin girls and God was pleased (Judges 21:23-24).
What fun being one of the chosen people. The rest of us (around 7 billion people) are very jealous. Also a bit afraid that we (the non-chosen ones) will have our foreskins removed with a sharp stone prior to beheading and our virgins daughters will be ravaged and will become sex slaves.
Reluctant Polluter - I hope this is a trolling attempt. What kind of a racist God would pick one group of people over all others? Your racist beliefs have no room in the civilized world. Perhaps people such as yourself and al qaeda deserve one another.
I don't know what order do you belong to, Monk - may it be the order of militant atheist ignorami? No religion has anything to do with any race. Is Mohammedanism a race? Is Communism a race?
And as gods go, every one of them with no exception chooses one group of people over all others. That is the testament, the alliance a god creates with his chosen people. Why? You don't put this silly question to a god, my dear disharmonious Monk - all the more that the answer is well known. Because He can.
Oh, and something else. Since the God is One, and He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, there is only one testament and one God's chosen people. This closes the issue which keeps you awake by night pretty well, doesn't it?
I belong to the "order" of mathematic and science. I believe in logic and reasoning. I believe in critical thinking and reaching conclusions based on tanglible or empirical evidence. Unlike you, I do not fall for delusion, fantasy, corruption, murder, and lies that have been spread by thousands and thousands of cults that call themselves Christians.
And all the fictitous gods chosening one group or another does not hide the fact that what you believe is a racist ideology. And actually, Christianity is the worst because it picks Jews as favorites based on race. It teaches its own followers that they are inferior to the chosen race. This bigoted and backwards ideology has no place in the civilized world, and that's why Christianity is in the decline both here in the U.S. and in Europe. You cling to a lie. You have been indoctrinated into holding on to something that has no evidence period. More and more people are realizing this and feeling enlightened.
"Oh, and something else. Since the God is One, and He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, there is only one testament and one God's chosen people. This closes the issue which keeps you awake by night pretty well, doesn't it?"
I thought there were two testaments? The old testament and the new one? You are so far into your delusions that you aren't even sure what it is you believe. It's funny how your fairy tale says that god's chosen people will actually all end up in your hell.
So tell me - where was your sky daddy when his "chosen people" were being slaughtered like animals by the Germans?
You people are probably the most corrupt cult on this planet! You sexually abuse little children, you take money in the name of your god to send to murderers in Israel, you take and receive "interest" which your own bible forbids, you engage in premarital sex, you do everything that contradicts your own cult because you know how silly it is, and then you come on here as brave Internet warriors acting
like you represent some ultra-moral order of justice and equality.
You attack minorities. It's people like you who call their fellow Americans lazy and entitled, yet you would rather give that money to Israel! Shame on you. You know what sad and vile creatures you are, and so you hang onto a backwards ideology and these fictituous beliefs to help you sleep better at night.
Stick to math, bro - your discourse is messy and lacks logic. You say, "Christianity is the worst because it picks Jews as favorites based on race". Jews and Arabs are both Semites - an ethnic group which includes also Somalis and Ethiopians, among others. Please comment on their race, if you can.
We all belong to the human race, and your insistence on dividing people in accordance to their skin color is par excellence racist.
There are Jews with very different tan and facial lineament, same is true about Christians and Mohammedans. You failed, try better next time.
There are twenty two, if not two thousand twenty two testaments, but only one of them the real one. Guess which?
Would you please find some better pastime for yourself than pondering into relationship between the Jews and their G-d? We are pretty good in this ourselves and don't need any amateurish assistance, thank you very much.
I have pretty sound logic. I don't subscribe to fairy tales such as the bible, and I'm not a member of the christian cult (like you are).
I'm not trying to divide anyone based on anything. You believe that one race has been chosen by your racist skydaddy. You posted some non-sense, and I responded calling you out for your lies and hypocrisy and delusions.
I would like to call you an upset troll, but I think your problem might be that you lack reading and comprehension skills, "bro".
Just in case, I'll repeat what I said. You believe in a fantasy, and no matter how many lies are in you bible, Israel is not above the law.
It wouldn't matter if there were 10000 testaments. Its all one big lie to justify murder and oppression of innocent human beings. The thing, you cannot silent dissent.
This is a discussion on Israel, and as much as you would love to be able to silence and murder your opponents like religious people do, you have no choice but to sit and watch as you get called out for your racist ideology.
Btw its spelled GOD without any dashes.
Another hollow diatribe which confirms you as a card holding member of St.Ignoramus Order: a) there is no innocent people on this planet; b) G-d's existence is totally independent of yours or anybody else' convictions; c) Israel won, you lost - eat it.
Aw, and d) it's spelled in "it is spelled" with an apostrophe. You failed once again.
Im part of no order. Not all of us are cult members. Most of us aren't in fact. I wasn't making any mention to israel winning nor losing. Looks like you've gone off the deep end in your delusions. How do you feel to know your religion is dying in the U.S.?
"The Palestinian leadership has been divided, with Fatah in the West Bank weak and hesitant and Hamas in Gaza unyielding and occasionally violent. But most of the blame falls on Israel's prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, who reluctantly endorsed the two-state idea in 2009 but has since done nothing to bring it about. "
It is mind boggling how supposedly informed and intelligent people can get it so wrong. Let us look at the objective facts. Let us suppose that Netanyahu or any other Israeli prime minister would have come forth and proposed a generous offer. What could he expect to get in return? Since 2006 the Palestinians are divided between the Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank. Hamas is unwilling to consider any peace agreement with Israel. At most it will consider an extended truce. Furthermore, it does not consider itself to be bound at all by the authority of Fatah in West Bank.
This means that the Palestinians at this time cannot even propose a formal commitment to end the conflict in return for any offer. At most, Fatah can do so in the name of half the Palestinians. Even supposing, all evidence to the contrary not withstanding, that Fatah is pepared to honor such a commitment, what is the worth of it? Let us even grant that Fatah will for the first time in its history actually take an agreement seriously. Still, Fatah is tremendously unpopular among the Palestinains. It is in control only because of the proximity of Israeli forces. Once Israel withdraws we can quite confidently expect Hamas to topple Fatah and take over.
What the can Israel expect to get in return for any offer it will make? Absolutely nothing. Not even a formal guarantee that the areas it will evacuate will not serve as launch pads for rockets on Tel Aviv. So is it Israel's fault that it is not willing to give something and get nothing in return? If you were in Israel's place what would you do?
Some people think that even if Israel does not get so much as a formal commitment to peace it is morally obliged to give the Palestinians all they demand because "occupation" is an unconditional evil. Such resoning is prevalent among Israeli far left and among the pseudo-intelligettsia of Europe. It just attests to how low the intellectual standards have sunk.
Another argument is that the only moral alternative is for Israel to grant equal rights to the Palestinians under "occupation", otherwise Israel is an appartheid state. But was the U.S. an appartheid state when it controlled Iraq or Afghanistan? The "occupation" is a measure forced upon Israel by the Palestinains.
The moral alternative is for the "occupation" to continue until the Palestinains pull their act together, unite and elect a leadership that speaks for all of them and prove themselves responsible agents in the international scene. Failing that they will have to put up with some difficulties. They have only themselves to blame.
Unfortunately, Israel is not a superpower and intenational relations do not evolve according to justice or morality. Eventually, Israel will have to evacuate some more territory. Eventually there will not be a two state "solution" but a three state "problem". It is the responsibility of Israeli governments to act in the iterest of Israel and Israel alone. That is, to stall time and the, under pressure, give as little as possible. It is here that I am critical of Netanyahu, in my opinion he hasn't been playing his hand skillfully. But that's another matter.
See the latest Poll results of Palestinians put out by their own Polling Unit:
This says it all for me!
What's notable about Naftali Bennett's plan is that its starting point is the annexation of the West Bank BUT it carves out Palestinian population centres in order to avoid having to politically enfranchise them.
It's actually so close to the status quo that it's really just that but without the pretense that a Palestinian state will ever be created.
Is it really true that those Russian Jews whose right to go to Israel the US fought so hard for in the cold war have turned out to be extreme right-wingers who would be much more at home in Putin's Russia?
Russian, or French, or Iranian, or any other Jews have the right to return to Israel and - exactly like you in your country... assuming you're not an Arab citizen - have the right to freely choose their political and philosophical convictions. Israelis being pragmatic people abandon the Lefty delusion in bigger and bigger numbers. Good on them!
Israel has already taken ALL the land, ALL the water, and it will continue to take whatever their greedy little hearts desire, as Herzl intended from the outset.
What to do with those pesky people, you know, the Palestinians who have not done the honorable thing and simply died to appease all those Eastern European interlopers. Israel thinks it can simply exclude them and go on their merry way, all the while insisting that "Jewish and Democratic State" is not an oxymoron of epic dimension.
Once the slow motion genocide of the Palestinians is complete, the people that never existed will have front row seats for the main event. A civil war between the Haredim and secular Jews, and an end to the pretense that Zionism and Israel is about Jewishness. The Jews have served as excellent cover for the reemergence of facism, subsidized by the grand teat of democracy, America.
What a ride, huh hasbarists?
You said: "ALL the land"?
How about 3% to 5% of the West Bank … of which they are offering offsets within present day Israel.
You said: "Once the slow motion genocide of the Palestinians is complete"
I thought the Arab/Muslim population is growing exponentially … which one is it? EITHER YOU CAN'T COUNT OR THE JEWS/ZIONISTS/ISRAELIS ARE REALLY BAD AT GENOCIDE! LOL
You said: "… reemergence of facism …"
The ONLY fascism that emerging in the MIDDLE EAST is from ISLAMIST sources! Iran's tyranny is a prime example … of a FASCIST ISLAMIST DICTATORSHIP!
tzatz - First of all, your constant use of capital letters makes you appear like an upset 5 year throwing a hissy fit.
Secondly, Israel's policy has been to slowly break the Palestinians. Do whatever it takes... control their movement, control their access to basic essentials such as water and electricity, bulldoze their homes, put them in refugee camps - do whatever it takes to break them as a people so that they simply pack their bags and move to one of the neighboring countries. It is a war not against Hamas or Fatah, but a war against the Palestinians as a people. In that sense, it is a slow genocide. It's too bad for Israel that the Palestinians refuse to simply pack their bags and leave. Rather, they're multiplying like rabbits! Bibi Netanyahu has been caught on tape saying this himself - "America is movable... we don't have to worry about Americans." He goes on to say what Israel needs to do is "strike at the Palestinians" and "strike at them hard".
Iran's religious government is nothing close to fascism. Iran is making huge developments with a youth that's embracing math and science and rejecting extremism. Of course, Israel has been wanting my country to send our brave men and women to die for you and bomb Iran for decades now. The problem is not the rest of the world. The problem is YOU.
It's not Netanyahu who has been caught talking trash … it was Obama at some Europe meeting … but who cares … really?
As for Iran … wikileaks has shown … it's been the Arab/Muslims YELLING at the USA to 'CUT THE HEAD OFF THE SNAKE' … the words from the Saudi King or FM among other Arabs!
So you'll have to do better …
Your military men and women better handle the issue … otherwise there will be a big explosion against the 'BIG SATAN' … sooner or later
Iran's people are not the issue … Iran's government is the ISSUE … it's a FASCIST ISLAMIST DICTATORSHIP … BTW … THE IRANIAN ECONOMY is in tatters … about to collapse in the coming months hopefully … may the Mullocracy collapse Inshallah
He wasn't trash talking. Netanyahu is a criminal, and our President doesn't like putting with his b.s. Why don't you elect a better "leader" next time than this maniac who thinks he can tell America what to do? One or two missiles would literally wipe Israel off the map, yet this clown Netanyahu thinks he can tell my country how to run the show.
Sure the Arabs have recently joined in on the parade, but Israel's accusations go back to the 1990's and even before then. I remember watching the news in 1994 and seeing the Israelis claim that Iran is just "one or two years away from developing nuclear weapons". As a matter of fact, it was the criminal Jewish neoconservatives (Elliot Abrams, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Scooter Libby, etc) who pushed this country to war against Iraq for the sake of Israel.
I don't really Iran collapsing or not. The point is that Israel is the instigator and trying to push my country to war. If our people have to die again in another useless war, then Israel's leaders such as Bibi Netanyahu need to be hung - publicly execute these war criminals for selling the Christian nutcases another useless war for another country's gain.
Why did America go to war in Gulf War I?
For which country? For which People? Who paid? Who got paid back?
Remind yourself … every time there's a war or a mention of war … what happens to the price of OIL? Who benefits? Who Loses? Which countries prosper from that little 'uptick'?
No one will tell America what to do? You think Netanyahu can tell America what to do? America is a 'big boy' … they know what to do and when! They NEVER ask … they do!
America is a huge military/industrial state! They're the ones pushing the agenda in America … NO ONE ELSE … IT'S NOT THE VOTERS … IT FRANKLY DOESN'T MATTER WHO IS ELECTED!
Too late for that. Israel has indeed killed the "two state solution", for since its very inception the regime only saw it as a fig leaf to cover its expansionist policies in the West Bank. Now that the hypocrisy can't be denied any longer, and that Israeli leaders have grown bold enough not to even bother in denying it, only the blind can keep insisting in such pipe dreams.
It is time for the International Community to do what it should have done long time ago, when it supported equal rights in South Africa, but strangely not in Palestine, in a very similar scenario. Only a good amount of external pressure will make this recalcitrant regime give up its supremacist privileges.
Israel will NEVER submit to a ONE STATE SOLUTION … that's NOT ON THE TABLE.
The Arab/Muslims will have to content themselves with:
1. a demilitarized Palestinian state with boundaries based on the 1967 lines
2. along with territorial swaps that reckon with Israel's security concerns
and keep the major settlement blocs under Israeli control
3. Palestinian refugees could return to the new state but not to Israel
4. the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem reverted to the Palestinian state, the
Jewish neighborhoods stayed in Israel and the Old City were under some kind
of joint administration
5. the agreement would come into effect only after the Palestinians ended all
terror activities
6. the United States approved the deal
That's the deal … it's not going to be 'tweaked' any differently in another year(s) …
BUT the Arab/Muslims still believe they can have the whole 'enchilada' … (that includes Egypt's Morsi) …
What do you mean "submit"? They are the authors of the ONE STATE SOLUTION! To deny this is pure idiocy. By all means, don't let reality interfere with your monochromatic wet dream.
"Israel will NEVER submit to a ONE STATE SOLUTION … that's NOT ON THE TABLE."
South Africa would also "never submit". But submit they did.
"The Arab/Muslims will have to content themselves with:
1. a demilitarized Palestinian state with boundaries based on the 1967 lines"
They have done since 1988. Those are the borders of the state they used for UN recognition. Israel's response was to announce more settlements destroying this solution further. They've been destroying this solution since 1967 and there are now so many Israeli-only roads and settlements that the TSS is no longer viable. The Palestinians in the OPT have had to settle for the de facto one state solution with Israel ruling over them harshly for the last forty-five years. That's why there are comparisons with apartheid.
So what? They want recognition WITHOUT doing the 'other part' … that is … SIGNING A PEACE AGREEMENT as outlined above!
As the song goes … 'YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER'!!!
In 1967 … the Arab/Muslims declared the 3 NO'S … no recognition, no peace, no talks with ISRAEL
The resulting years have changed the dynamics 'on the ground' … Jerusalem has grown suburbs and there are several 'MAJOR SETTLEMENT BLOCS' in the West Bank … these will be included in the future State of Israel …
Wherever you live … including Sub-Saharan Africa … things have changed since 1967 … THEREFORE … WHAT WAS 'SIMPLER' IN 1967 is more complcated today … that is, 'facts on the ground' … YOU CAN'T EXPECT THE STATUS QUO ANTE OF 1967 TO APPLY IN 2013? Do you? That's naive.
Strictly speaking, the palestinians don´t have to do anything. The West Bank and Gaza were handed to the palestinian people by Syria and Egypt after the 1967 war. There has never been a war between Israel and a Palestinian state. There are, formally speaking, no scores to settle. The problem has been the Israeli occupation. Not just its duration, but also its character. Israel is perfectly happy with destroying the lives of generations of palestinians in order for them to function as a sort of human shield against Israels neighbours. And as the danger of a regional attack on Israel has waned, it has started building housing for Israelis on occupied land. This is unacceptable. Even if Israels claims of the palestinians being impossible to work with is true. Then they should just leave the occupied territories and make whatever defensive measures they see fit within their own borders. It is not an option to keep a whole people hostage like this.
You said: "… as the danger of a regional attack on Israel has waned …"
Wow. Do you work in the USA State Department? Just asking … LOL
It seems you've been asleep Van Winkle! The Arab/Muslim Awakening has turned into an ISLAMIST REVIVAL … EVERYONE NOW HAS AN ISLAMIST MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD PARTY IN CHARGE OF ITS AFFAIRS … ISLAMISTS ARE NO FRIEND OF THE WEST OR ITS ALLY THE JEWISH STATE OF ISRAEL
You said: "… hey should just leave the occupied territories and make whatever defensive measures they see fit within their own borders …"
The Israelis withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005 … what they got in return was attacks from those territories leading to 3 WARS … this is NOT good policy … isn't the saying: 'once bitten twice shy?' …… or as Einstein stated: 'doing the same thing over and over again thinking you'll get DIFFERENT results is STUPIDITY'
NO THERE MUST BE A SIGNED END OF CONFLICT PEACE AGREEMENT SIGNED BEFORE ANY FURTHER WITHDRAWLS … Abbas doesn't want to do this because he understands that doing so means … his own end/death by assassination. But that's what it will take … an END OF CONFLICT PEACE AGREEMENT … SIGNED OFF BY THE FULL ARAB/MUSLIM LEAGUE not just the Palestinians!
Syria and Egypt were not in position to "hand" Judea and Samaria as well as Gaza to any people - neither in 1967, nor in any other time. They certainly couldn't "hand" it to the non-existent "Palestinian" people. Those lands never belonged to Syria and Egypt, but always belonged - and continue to belong - to Israel. Meaning to the Jewish state.
I'm sorry, it should have been Jordan and Egypt. Other than that, to quote my mum:
That goes for tzatz too
Exactly, Lump! That's what your mum and I say: the land wasn't neither Egyptian nor Jordanian to give it away to anyone, so sod off!
Are you making a political statement or are you claiming that what you say is factual? In which version of history was the West Bank never Jordanian?
BTW, consistently recommending yourself is pretty weak.
The West Bank … technically was assigned by the NOV 1947 PARTITION PLAN to the 'Arab' state to be formed! Jordan already existed and in the war of 1948 … the one the Israelis called the 'War of Independence' … and the Arab/Muslims call the 'Naqba' … Jordan which invaded the State of Israel … ended up after the armistice … with its army in control of the West Bank … they liked it so much … they ANNEXED IT!!!
I wouldn't recommend something like reading it's bad for your preconceived beliefs … LOL … ask you Mum!
......and if Israel had annexed the West Bank and Gaza, and integrated their populations into a larger Israel with full rights as full citizens, most countries would probably recognize The West Bank and Gaza as Israeli today. But that's not what happened. And it's too late now. So Israel should just cut Gaza and The West Bank loose.
The first part of … " just cut Gaza and The West Bank loose …" is TRUE! It's FREE … free to do as it pleases and free to make war now and again on the Jewish State which it has done!
As for the 2nd part … that is, the West Bank … Abbas & co have committed themselves to a negotiated peace agreement through Oslo and 'the Road' … through the 'Clinton Parameters' et al
There is still hope that a settlement can be achieved … BUT although it is a distant hope … it is still achievable under the 'right' circumstances … since the Jewish People of Israel have been polled lately and agreed to the following:
1. a demilitarized Palestinian state with boundaries based on the 1967 lines
2. along with territorial swaps that reckon with Israel's security concerns
and keep the major settlement blocs under Israeli control
3. Palestinian refugees could return to the new state but not to Israel
4. the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem reverted to the Palestinian state, the
Jewish neighborhoods stayed in Israel and the Old City were under some kind
of joint administration
5. the agreement would come into effect only after the Palestinians ended all
terror activities
6. the United States approved the deal
(1) Israeli withdrawal from more than 97 percent of the West Bank and a land swap for the rest;
(2) a Palestinian state with a "strong security force" (but no army) and a multinational force;
(3) sovereignty over land, water, and airspace, but an Israeli right to use airspace for training and maintain two West Bank early-warning stations for 15 years;
(4) a capital in East Jerusalem, including all Arab neighborhoods and most of the Old City; and
(5) a "right of return" for refugees to the new state and compensation for "refugeehood."
See: http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2012/p46e.html
So WHO REALLY WANTS TO MAKE PEACE?
From 1948 to 1967 West Bank and part of Jerusalem were occupied by Jordan. It is 19 years, and them Hashemite monarchs didn't create a "Palestinian state" over there... why, I wonder? Anyway, taking into account your incessant yammer about "Israeli occupation", you won't deem Jordan the legal owner of the lands taken over as a result of war, will you?
The zinger here is the issue of sovereignty. A palestinian state will have a need to establish a condition where it can be recognized, formally and de facto, as a sovereign state. If it´s forced to not have armed forces, and forced to allow a former occupying power to maintain a military presence, both on the ground and in the air, it won´t be a sovereign state. Any palestinian state will be a house of cards, it doesn´t need an even wobblier foundation. If Israel and the new palestinian state could agree to a framework for military co-operation, where they share intelligence and discuss strategic priorities on a regular basis, it could help stabilize the situation further. All these other issues should be possible to hammer out in an acceptable manner. If not, we revert to the option of complete unilateral withdrawal. A continued occupation is not an option for much longer.
That's NOT the deal that's acceptable to the Jewish State!
Germany and Japan were sovereign states after WWII … BOTH WERE OCCUPIED AND BOTH HAD FOREIGN MILITARY TROOPS ON THEIR SOIL UP UNTIL THE PRESENT!
Palestine will have to have such an arrangement as well … DEMILITARIZED … WITH A FOREIGN MILITARY PRESENCE FOR SOMETIME INTO THE FUTURE …
What's good for the USA is good for Israel too!
Germany and Japan were sovereign states before WW2 as well. Besides, the DDR hardly was a sovereign state. At any rate, the palestinian people arent´t Germany or Japan after WW2.
Germany and Japan were sovereign states before WW2 as well. Besides, the DDR hardly was a sovereign state. At any rate, the palestinian people arent´t Germany or Japan after WW2.
The fact is they were OCCUPIED FOR YEARS … AND THEY STILL ARE OCCUPIED.
That's the only point I making … whenever a Peace Treaty will be reached … there might have to be/there will be an ISRAELI MILITARY PRESENCE in the Arab/Muslim State … it might be for 5 Years or 10 Years or … whatever …
There will be NO GUESSES as to the intentions of that Arab/Muslim State or any other … there's NO DISPUTING the fact Israel as the dominant Military in the the Region will not submit to being anything BUT the dominant player!
It's like the USA in the Northern Hemisphere … when Russia tried to put Nukes in Cuba … there was a standoff and there was a blockade and there was a REMOVAL OF THE NUKES … AMERICA COULDN'T STAND BY AND ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN …
Israel is no different … they have proven that already by attacking Iraq's Osirak Nuclear Plant in 1981 and Syria's al-Kibar in 2007 … they will continue to remain the dominant military power in the Middle East … THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE … IT'S THAT OR PERISH! They understand it all too well!
A palestinian state will not want, or be allowed, to acquire nuclear weapons. Even though it´s codified into International Law, it really is a matter of realpolitik. Even if Israel considers this a risk, they´ve reached a point where the risk of not solving the deadlock is more dangerous than striking a compromise. A compromise that definitively ends the occupation.
You said: "Even if Israel considers this a risk, they´ve reached a point where the risk of not solving the deadlock is more dangerous than striking a compromise …"
That's not my call! I'm a Canadian. I'll leave it to the Israelis to make that call. I lived there and know they live 'cheek by jowl' with the West Bank … as I said … it'll be their call!
For forty years I was pro Jewish and pro Israel.
Not so the last ten years.
Now, with Israel drifting so far to the right, I am still very pro Jewish but I am now anti Israel.
Most of my American Jewish friends are very, very uncomfortable which what has been happening in Israel for the last five years.
Certainly some Palestinians behave badly.
But settler land grabs will only make the Palestians more desperate.
And when they lose what little hope they have, who knows what will happen.
Israelis would do well to remember Warsaw when their mistreatment by the Nazis caused them to strike back against their oppressors.
In my opinion, given its increasing circulation in the USA, The Economist bends over backwards in towning down its criticism of Israel.
Haraatz is much harsher on Netanyahu than The Economist.
Time for the exchange rate to be set:
Per Israeli soldier killed in wars started by Arab states: 50 settlement households
Per Israeli soldier killed in breach of the ceasefires between those wars and
per death of an adult in a terrorist attack: 100 settlement households.
Per death of a child in a terrorist attack: 1000 settlement households.
Per rocket attack from Gaza or Lebanon: 10 settlement households
The acceptance of these beyond the 1948 ceasefire lines as national memorials to criminality of Arab terrorism since 1948.
If anyone can tell me the total this would give, I would be interested...
And what will be the price to pay for every Palestinian child murdered by Israel's army? For every random act of destruction? For keeping millions of mostly underage Gazans under siege?
If the "rate" is fixed for both sides, you can be sure Israel's tab is going to be far steeper.
There is NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE between the State of Israel and the Arab/Muslim terrorists/resistance fighters!
Israel is a state whose government is tasked to defend the Jewish People …
the Arab/Muslims are intent on 'harming the Jewish People' … they are not defending their own people or seeking to develop their own 'state'
It's clear that the Arab/Muslims are shockingly poor administrators/governors of their own people BUT THAT'S NOT ISRAEL'S ISSUE …
You said: "… mostly underage Gazans"
The Arab/Muslim World is FULL OF … "mostly underage" YOUTH !!!! THAT'S WHY THERE'S REVOLUTION IN THE AIR! IT'S A GIVEN THAT WHEN YOU COMBINE YOUTH/UNEMPLOYMENT/IDLENESS … you get REVOLUTION …
but like John Lennon said:
"but if you want money for people with minds that hate …
all I can tell you brother is you'll have to wait"
(anyways … the Saudis/Qataris will provide the money!!!)
Certainly, there is no possible moral equivalence between occupier and occupied, between colonizer and colonized, between oppressor and oppressed. No matter how "civilized", "enlightened" and "benevolent" the former, and no matter how "savage", "fanatical" and "evil" the latter, a colonizer will always be in the wrong side of history in his quest to take over other people's homeland, and the colonized will have every right to defend it by whatever means necessary.
You said: "… every right to defend it by whatever means necessary"
This is true for the Israelis as well … so don't be upset when more of YOU are dead at the end of any exchange of fire. It's just that the IDF has the ability to inflict MORE punishment than it gets in return! So … what I'm saying is … if YOU desist in firing at Israelis … there will be NO FIRING ON ARAB/MUSLIMS! It's that simple.
Colonizer and Colonized … Occupier and Occupied … Oppressor and Oppressed
These terms have meaning but are MEANINGLESS when dealing with the Arab/Israeli Conflict
Israel is NOT a colonizer … oppressor … occupier
Israel is the legitimate government of the State of Israel
Israel is the legitimate military occupier of the West Bank after a war instigated against it in 1967
Israel does not oppress the Arab/Muslims
YOUR reference points are ALL SKEWED in the wrong direction … YOUR POV sees the situation from an impossibly tangential viewpoint … there is NO RATIONAL explanation for this except a TOTAL NEGATION OF THE RIGHT OF ISRAEL TO BOTH DEFEND ITSELF AS A SOVEREIGN STATE … ISRAEL AS A RATIONAL ACTOR WILL NEVER GIVE UP THE RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE … A ROBUST AND POWER DEFENSE OF ITS CITIZENS …
Witness today's events in Algeria … while the outcomes are unclear … what is clear is that the Arab/Muslim state of Algeria has clearly stated it will not negotiate with terrorists and it will defend it's sovereignty with as much deadly force as it can muster! I applaud the Algerian state and its armed struggle against the fascist Islamist threat on its territory … long live Liberty!
"Israel is NOT a colonizer … oppressor … occupier
Israel is the legitimate government of the State of Israel
Israel is the legitimate military occupier of the West Bank after a war instigated against it in 1967
Israel does not oppress the Arab/Muslims"
You live in denial Tzatz. Open your eyes. Everybody else is already doing it.
I can see … (although my eyesight is getting worse) … lol
My trouble is that I'm watching TV and seeing the behaviour of the Arab/Muslims throughout the region … the word OPPRESSION comes to my lips daily when looking at the scenes on view …
Tunisia … Libya … Egypt … Syria … Mali … Algeria … Yemen … Bahrain … Iraq … Pakistan … Afghanistan …
I keep on looking but I just don't see how the Arab/Israeli Conflict impacts how 'screwed up' … the Arab/Muslim Middle East REALLY IS?
WHAT AM I MISSING FROY? Help …
This paper would advocate that Obama stand up to Netanyahu and admonish it, but would undoubtedly say Obama was being unfriendly and standoffish towards Israel when he followed the paper's advice.
It's a non starter.
Most of the blame falls on the Palestinians, whether it be Hamas or Fatah, who have one aim only--to destroy the state of Israel.
The week ahead: A very normal affair
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Democracy in America
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Church Chairs
Your Results (0–-1 of 0)
Hertz Furniture offers you so many wonderful church chairs, you will have a hard time deciding which one to choose. For the budget conscious, we have affordable church chairs in both fabric and vinyl. Like things neat and organized? Then our Pew Stack chairs with optional ganging are for you. If you are looking for comfort, consider our super plush Ultimate Church Chair. To add a sumptuous touch to your chapel, our pulpit chairs with their graceful lines and gorgeous finishes fit your bill.


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Photos of New Moon Cast in Germany
by Celebrity
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Photos of New Moon Cast in Germany
4 years
They are so effing cute together. Her black hair just compliments her skin, although her hair did look REAL fake in eclipse.. its like her hairline was carved or something.
an Your right about rob, he does need to make an effort already. I guess he thinks or his stylists says that if he dresses up too neat or with his hair up just like in the movies, he'd be the character(edward) outside the movie.
Probably he is trying to make his own style statement. But its not working ! bah!
5 years
They all look great! I think Rob and Kristen are very professional. People were wondering why no photos of them together at the LA premiere? They were promoting the movie, not their personal lives.
Though, they do look great together.
5 years
Taylor is always impeccably dressed, clean shaven and hair looks great. Even though I'm Team Edward, I have to say that Taylor has it goin' on in the presentation. Rob's got the looks package but he sure doesn't make any effort. I wish he'd grow up a bit -- shave, put on a pressed shirt and wear clothes that actually fit. He's way too cute to always look like he just rolled out of bed -- come on, Rob! Make an effort already!
I think Kristen needs to dump the black locks and get a better cut while she's growing her hair out. It looks hard and dated. Will someone tell this girl how to pose and stand up straight? She's always slouching (I guess she matches Rob in that department). I really like her but I wish she'd get a good stylist. She does okay when she's glammed-up on the red carpet (so to speak) or a photo shoot, but she dresses as bad as Rob when she's hitting the streets. Sometimes she looks like an extra from "Deliverance" -- sorry to say that cause she really is a pretty girl, just not living up to her potential.
5 years
check out the difference between rob and kristen's reaction when they are whispering to each other, or kristen whispering to taylor or rob whispering to taylor! definitely not same reaction!! you are blind if you dont see that! always trying to have an excuse....
5 years
I guess now that every time they are standing beside each other they are going to be having a moment. Well guess what she is seen standing close to Taylor and whispering into his ear, so I guess they were having a moment also. Oh! let's not leave out the pictures of Rob and Taylor whispering into each other's ear...that is a moment too. But...I notice you didn't post those pictures and they all occurred at the same function as the above pictures of Rob and Kristen. PLEEEEZZZZZ!!!!!
5 years
That is so cute, they make a great couple in my eyes! They look great in there outfits! Can't wait for the movie! Five more days ( counting today)!
5 years
I think they are dating and they do seem to be genuinely in love. Here's for the best to Robert and Kristen.
5 years
awwwwhhh. kristen and rob are so adorable. and kristen has deffinitely been looking gorgeous lately .
5 years
Kristen looks stunning, she's pretty and gorgeous in all this pics. I love her and RoB!
5 years
Oh, they are being cute together, what's the big deal with noticing that. I don't knkow if it's a "moment"-but there's a crapload of cute pictures here, dfeinitely with them.
5 years
Oh wow! They're like, totally whispering in each other's ears! Omg they are so totally dating. I mean, this couldn't possibly be because they're in a crowded room full of screaming teenage girls, i mean, if he's whispering in her ear then they are so obviously totally dating!
5 years
Seriously, so now everytime they come within 10 feet of each other they're 'having a moment'? I'm sorry, but i find that just a little bit ridiculous. It's kind of obvious that newspapers and magazines are purposely twisting things around and and making assumptions based solely on the fact that 'Kristen + Robert' sells. Let me make it clear here that i don't disagree with the theory that they are dating, i think it's very likely, and if it's true than i wish them luck. But people need to stop thinking that everytime they step into the same room they're flirting. If they are really dating someone is bound to catch them soon, and when they do it'll be alot more juicy than some silly hand-holding or whispering.
5 years
i just love these pictures!!! all you have to do is look at the way they look at each other and tell they are in love. ( and also can't wait to get back to their room). i hope the arrive at the premire together. they have showed all the other countries their love and commiment, now let show the usa. also show the non-believers and summit entertainment, nothing can stop their feelings for each other. and the comment about to famous to be a couple. did someone forget liz taylor and richard burton? paul newman and joanne woodward?
5 years
Rob defintely looks WhIPPED! I bet Kristen runs the relationship. I can't believe how much promotion for this movie is going on. I never seen anything like it for any other movie. Its like they're all a pop group. What I'm liking about all this promoting is just one thing, her outfits. Her dresses are freakin HOT! Its like a love and hate for me now. I love Kristen's dresses but so annoying to keep seeing them every where. Can't wait for all the movies to be made and put out, so all this popping crap can end.
Link Love
- John Stamos calls "bullsh*t" on the Olsen twins' Full House claims — ET
- Khloé Kardashian faces backlash over Baltimore riots post — HuffPost Celebrity
- This is what Kendall Jenner looks like without makeup — Gossip Girl
- Is Amy Adams planning a secret wedding? — OK
- Sarah Silverman and Michael Sheen are going strong — Lainey Gossip
- Zendaya GIFs for 25 life situations — BuzzFeed
- ABC reportedly backs Diane Sawyer's claim about Kris Jenner — People
- Viola Davis is set to play a civil rights icon — Hollywood Reporter
- Did Brody Jenner dis Kim Kardashian on Instagram? — TooFab
- Furious 7 continues to break records — Rotten Tomatoes
- Tim McGraw talking about his family is so cute — Wonderwall
- Jon Stewart tears CNN a new one — The Frisky
Latest Celebrity


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12 Fiber Indoor Distribution Fiber Optic Cable, Singlemode, 9/125, Yellow, Riser Rated, Spool, 1000 foot
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Check out some available loans that are similar to this one!
Rup Laxmi
She has already received and successfully repaid four loans from Patan BPW and used her most recent to buy cloth for her business. In the future, Rup Laxmi plans to uplift the economic conditions of her family. She thanks you for your support.
In the Kathmandu Valley, clothing is made to order. Tailor stalls line the streets where store owners sell material and work their sewing machines. These skilled tailors make school uniforms for children as well as the traditional women's kurta surwal and men's daura surwal. With a Kiva loan, BPW borrowers are able to purchase additional cloth material or sewing machines that will increase production and profitability.
Additional Information
About BPW Patan
This loan was administered by Kiva's Field Partner, Patan Business and Professional Women. BPW Patan became Kiva's first Field Partner in Nepal in 2007. BPW Patan operates throughout the Kathmandu Valley, offering microcredit, business training, and literacy classes to low-income women in both urban and rural areas. BPW Patan uses a group lending methodology, which not only allows women without collateral to access finance, but also provides members with a valuable support system. In addition to providing economic opportunities to its clients, BPW Patan seeks to empower Nepali women within their homes and communities. For more information about BPW Patan, visit the BPW Patan Partner Page and keep an eye out for new loans and borrower updates. Also, please consider joining the BPW Patan Lending Team to show your support.About Nepal
0View loans »
Ended with Loss - Currency Exchange Loss learn more
A loan of $300 helped Rup Laxmi to buy cloth for her business.
- Repayment Term
- 14 months (Additional Information)
- Repayment Schedule
- Monthly
- Pre-Disbursed:
- Dec 27, 2012
- Listed
- Dec 28, 2012
- Currency Exchange Loss:
- Possible
- Ended:
- Sep 21, 2013


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A quick search didn't reveal the answer so I'll ask here;
How long until I can run without X? (I know it depends on what progs I use, let's say WINE and firefox)
Also have an HTPC (AMD APU) that is itching to be running XBMC+Wayland without anything else in the way.
Is this a complete waste looking into it now, or are we getting close?


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Giants hope Zito can reel in streaking Fish
Turner looks to remain unbeaten in start vs. shorthanded San Francisco
The Giants lost a game Friday, their seventh in 11 tries. It could've been worse. They almost lost another regular.
Andres Torres departed in the sixth inning after an awkward landing on a slide while trying to stretch a double into a triple left him with a right knee injury.
Angel Pagan, Pablo Sandoval and Brandon Crawford have all missed time of late, but the Giants are hoping Torres can play Saturday, as the Giants host the Marlins.
"I hit my kneecap and it was really sore," said Torres, whose X-rays were negative. "I'm going to put ice on it. I'm going to see how it feels [Saturday]."
Having lost two straight to Miami, the worst team in the Majors, the Giants turn to Barry Zito, who will be pitching following the death of his father, Joseph, on Wednesday.
The crafty lefty has dominated at AT&T Park this season, posting a 4-1 record with a 2.06 ERA. He's also had the Marlins' number throughout his career, going 5-1 with a 2.45 ERA over eight starts.
"I think we just need to get everything clicking," Zito said this week. "We're pretty banged up right now."
Facing the Giants will be 22-year-old right-hander Jacob Turner, who has sparkled in four Major League starts this season. In 25 innings, he has 18 strikeouts, 10 walks and just one home run allowed as he's undefeated with a 2.16 ERA.
In Turner's last start, a no-decision at Arizona, he gave up two runs in five innings with five strikeouts and three walks.
"I thought he was fine in his last start," manager Mike Redmond said. "Like I've said, when we don't score runs, these starters go out and we base their outings on if they give up more than one or two runs. We've got to be a little bit more realistic and realize these guys are going to give up some runs. We haven't been scoring runs. It makes it to where they have to pitch perfectly.
"I've been real happy with the way he's thrown, and the way he's commanded his pitches."
Giants: A grim reaper in the outfield
There's a chance Crawford could play Saturday, as he's been out of the Giants lineup for three straight games due to a sprained middle and index finger.
But there was no good news to report on Pagan, who was walking gingerly through the Giants' clubhouse Friday after getting carted off the field while aggravating his left hamstring during a rehab assignment the day before.
"He seemed all right. A little down," manager Bruce Bochy said. "I think he's hoping, like the rest of us are, for good news."
Without Pagan and Torres, the Giants could be down to three outfielders in Hunter Pence, Gregor Blanco and Juan Perez, who has just 10 Major League games under his belt after replacing Torres in the outfield Friday.
Marlins: Cishek holding steady
Closer Steve Cishek allowed two runners to reach scoring position before Buster Posey stepped up as the game-tying run in the ninth inning Friday, but Cishek got the job done.
Cishek is 12-for-14 in save opportunities this season. That's been one consistent part of a last-place Marlins squad.
With a steady closer, the Marlins have fared better in one-run games, going 11-14 this season.
"Lately, it's been working out for us," Cishek said. "We've been able to get that big hit or big stop, or make a big pitch or make a big play. We're hoping we can put it together for the rest of the year, because this is a lot more fun."
Worth noting
• Sandoval went 1-for-3 with a home run while playing five innings at third base in his first rehab assignment game for Class A San Jose on Friday.
• Giants starter Chad Gaudin is optimistic he'll make his next start after getting hit with a line drive Thursday, but Bochy said it's too soon to tell.
• Tim Lincecum hit his second career triple Friday. A career .114 hitter, Lincecum has had a down year at the plate. He's hitting .077. Zito, meanwhile, is hitting .190, a career high. He has two RBIs and could tie a career high with one more.
• Marlins outfield prospect Jake Marisnick is missing a couple of days after being struck on his left hand by a pitch Wednesday night. Marisnick broke the same hand after being hit by a pitch early in Spring Training. An X-ray came back negative, but more will be known on the severity of the injury after the swelling subsides.
Jason Mastrodonato is a reporter for MLB.com. Follow him on Twitter @jmastrodonato. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.


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Toggle shoutbox NYJETSFAN BANTER
Michael Turner
Posted 14 January 2007 - 05:46 PM
The Newest Member Of The J-E-T-S!!!
Posted 14 January 2007 - 06:07 PM
Posted 14 January 2007 - 06:09 PM
Well YOU BETTER BLEED GREEN & WHITE!!!!
S-Dubb: like if she was giving me a handjob and I saw that thumb I don't know how I'd react
Posted 14 January 2007 - 06:10 PM
Posted 14 January 2007 - 06:28 PM
lol yea if the chargers win, i can already see what EvanstonJet is gonna say.
EvanstonJet: WE beat the chargers in 04 and the chargers beat the patriots. we should have won that game last weak. Fire Mangini, Rebuild, Trade Vilma, Cut D'brickshaw...
The Newest Member Of The J-E-T-S!!!
Posted 14 January 2007 - 06:53 PM
Posted 14 January 2007 - 07:04 PM
please feel fre to join me on the truner train. i've been telling u gusy that. i've wacthed him play all year. forget the numbers he's impressive
Posted 14 January 2007 - 07:24 PM
As long as your willing to give up our 1st round pick for him, thats the compensation San Diego is going to get if they dont match an offer. We need to see how it plays out, might be better off moving up in the draft for Lynch.
Posted 14 January 2007 - 09:43 PM
I absolutely agree with you. I saw a guy elsewhere worry about giving up a draft pick for him. i'd do it in a NY minute! He is fast, elusive and can run as well as catch! At 250 pounds he runs a 4.5 legitimate 40!
Posted 14 January 2007 - 09:59 PM
once again your wrong. just cause SD puts a tender on him doens't mean we have to pay that. we could work out a trade for turner. maybe a 2nd rounder and j-mac for turner. i'd to that immediatly
Posted 14 January 2007 - 10:31 PM
that would be a good trade
Posted 14 January 2007 - 11:33 PM
" Winning isn't everything; its the only thing"
RIP Uncle Bob 5/12/06
Posted 15 January 2007 - 11:12 AM
I didn't watch the game but Turner's first carry was on a 4th down after three straight runs, the fourth play of a drive (his TD) after Tomlinson had ran twice for 13 yards and caught a 58 yard pass and a 1 yard run on a 1st down play.
I know he returns kicks but Miller's job as KR is a dead certainty next year and two of his runs came after the Chargers had loosened up the Pats D.
Trading for him will be a gamble and it's not one I think is worth taking considering what can be got in the draft not only at RB but at other positions we need to fill/improve as well.
If Tangini do look at him they need to be certain the reward of having him outweighs the risk of giving up a high draft pick for someone who has little experience in the league. In my eyes the reward doesn't outweigh the risk.
Posted 15 January 2007 - 11:16 AM
The Chargers won't settle for a 3rd and maybe not a 2nd either because they know how much they can get for him as a lot of teams will be interested.