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weakening Fatah and strengthening Hamas has always been part of Israeli diplomatic strategy. Afterall Israel created Hamas purely for that purpose
The UN upgrade resolution has neither created a Palestinian state, nor did it grant any kind of statehood to the Palestinians. The areas of Gaza and the West Bank have never been determined in any legal document or agreement to be sovereign Palestinian areas. Both Israel and the Palestinians entertain claims over the areas in dispute
For this and More: www.jcpa.org
But … in order for the Jewish State to remain democratic … there will need to be an overwhelming MAJORITY of Jews living in the Jewish State … Gaza and the West Bank … have an overwhelming number of Arab/Muslims … therefore … logically … there must be a border 'somewhere' on the West Bank between Israel and 'the other', that is, Palestine or whatever they call it. Hello?
The Security Barrier was drawn up 'with the thought' it might one day separate Israel from 'Palestine' … Hello?
Do you see it differently? If so, how? Because if you think Israel is from the River to the Sea … YOU'RE WRONG … let me know.
That includes any other 'Greater Israel' believers …
Jehuda Ben-Israel? Is that what you believe?
Strait Forward? Is that what you believe?
There can't be any fudging this issue! 2 States for 2 Peoples … is that right?
See Alan Dershowitz (recorded Sep. 2011), about the Palestinians and the UN. It will tell you all you need to know about the PLO conduct throughout the coflict between Israel and the Palestinains, as well as the UN and its nature:
In his speech, Dershowitz speaks about how the UN gradually upgrades the PLO status despite its terror and aggression against Israel.
The Palestinian National Charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel was approved in 1968, a version that is still the most recent updated one.
In addition, following the 1973 war, the PLO realized they won't be able to just eliminate Israel in one blow, and that it will have to be a process. In 1974 the PLO therefore adopted the '10 Point Plan', also known as 'The Phased Plan for the Destruction of Israel'.
The 10 Point Plan included three major phases:
1. Establishment of a combatant Palestinian National Authority on any part of Palestine that can be liberated.
2. Continuation of the 'armed struggle', the Palestinian term for terrorism against Israel.
3. Creating a coalition of Arab states to deliver the final blow at Israel, 'liberating' the whole of Palestine.
Like the Charter, this 10 Point Plan is also presented in the Palestine Permanent Observer UN Mission web site:
It is interesting to note that Article 1 in the 10 Point Plan, that was adopted by the PLO in June of 1974, states that "...The [Palestine National] Council therefore refuses to have anything to do with this resolution [Security Council Resolution 242] at any level, Arab or international, including the Geneva Conference."
Apart for the call to detroy Israel in stages, which is contrary to the UN Charter, the PLO EXPRESSED CONTEMPT TO THE UN SECURITY GOVERNANCE BODY - THE SECURITY COUNCIL, stating they do not recognize SC Resolution 242.
Despite the fact the PLO's disregard to the UN and its lack of respect to its bodies, as a 'reward' to this contempt showed by the PLO, in November 22nd, 1974, merely 5 months after the PLO adopted the 10 Point Plan, the UN granted the PLO a formal Observer status..
This reward to terrorism and existential aggression by the UN to the PLO, which Charter and 10 Point Plan call for the destruction of a UN member state, makes the UN the largest contributor to war in the Middle East, apart for the Arab aggressors, of course.
If peace was in the mind of UN member states in 1974, when dealing with the PLO attempt to be granted official UN status, the UN could have told the PLO something like: 'Fine, but first abolish/amend your charter, cancel the 10 Point Plan, and definitely show respect to the UN Security Council'.
But the UN didn't.
By accepting the PLO as it was, with the Palestinian National Carter that calls for the destruction of Israel, alongside the 10 Point Plan that in addition show contempt to the UN itself - the UN granted a Kosher stamp for the continuation of aggression against Israel.
The UN itself should be added to the list of organizations which support terrorism.
The ICJ should conduct a trial where the UN is accused of terror promtion and genocide advocacy.
A good review. Thank you. The UN, in other words, has been acting in support of an organization that acts against the UN's own Charter and is eager to bring about the demise of a fellow UN member state. And, yet, some continue to respect this cynical organization...
Indeed, the UN had gone totally bankrupt. It systematically fails to deal with REAL grievances, such as the genocides in Cambodia, Darfur, and Rwanda; it fails to protect the rights on women, minorities, gays, and even with crisis such as Syria, where ON A DAILY BASIS Crimes Against Humanity are performed for almost TWO YEARS, leaving over 40,000 DEAD!
It is time to dismantle this organization, that instead of preventing wars, genocides, and other grievances, in its uselessness, it practically the single most important PROMOTER of all of those crimes.
TIME TO ABOLISH this farcical organization so-called the "United Nations" !!
Let us keep one simple fact in mind: For the past four years the Muslim-Arab leadership of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), after having been offered a peace deal by the former Israeli government and rejected it in both word and terrorist deeds, has refused to return to the negotiating table and do what it had committed to do, which is resolving all the major issues, including "settlements" around the negotiating table on the way of reaching the Final Status Agreement.
Wouldn't it be the most appropriated action for peace loving people around the world to demand of the PLO's leadership to simply keep its word and signed agreement and return to the negotiating table to talk peace with Israel, directly and without preconditions?
The very fact that the PLO is allowed off the hook in this context by some makes one wonders: Is the motive here to reach an accommodation of peaceful coexistence by the parties or rather to smear, again, those Jews...??!!
This was meant as a reply to you, Jehuda:
See Alan Dershowitz (recorded Sep. 2011), about the Palestinians and the UN. It will tell you all you need to know about the PLO conduct throughout the coflict between Israel and the Palestinains, as well as the UN and its nature:
A minor correction: The conflict is NOT one between Israel and the "Palestinians"; it is rather between the Jewish community and the sovereign nation-state of the Jewish people, Israel, and the Muslim-Arab world of which the local conflict a dimension. To illustrate the point, do note, all the major wars, e.g. 1948, 1967, 1973, etc. have been initiated by the Muslim-Arab countries surrounding Israel; and, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) was set up in 1964 by the Arab League, three full years prior to Israel's capturing, in a defensive war, the presently disputed territories. Perhaps once we fully appreciate this point Israel's position will be better understood as well.
Europeans confuse me. They have fought Arabs for centuries, and have expelled and killed more jews than any other group of cultures in the world.
They are imperialistic by nature -still having territories spread all over the world-, and have been historically violent.
Right now, I still don't understand why, they think they have the last word in international matters-and in practice they do-. They accommodate knowledge, for instance, to their own terms and rank every stat according to what they are and what suits them. They call ignorant, poor, underdeveloped or problem anything they wish to define as so. They invade and bomb when a small group of them believes it is right to do so.
Now, their middle-class "speaks with freedom" against Israel's toughness towards the violent group of arabs who dedicate their lives to be destructive. With their state sponsored knowledge of everything. Scientists!
Don't forget. The main reason jews migrated to Israel was, as it has been throughout history, that certain European countries expelled them and others decided to use them as raw material for making soap.
So I'm not surprised to see so many middle-class Europeans supporting whatever against Israel as a "scientific fad" in popular media. What surprises me is that their scientific ignorance blinds them to what would happen with a Middle East run by Iran and Hamas. It appears to me that maybe they wish to start fighting the muslim world again, as they did for so many centuries. Cause when they do, it is completely justified.
Isreal's weaponds of mass destrcution = Settlements
You say:
'Isreal's weaponds of mass destrcution = Settlements'.
Before 1967, not a single Jewish settlement existed in the West Bank & Gaza. In fact, not a single Jew was able to take a breath in those areas before 1967.
Still, before 1967, ALL Israel's neighbors refused to recognize its existence. The PLO, which was established in 1967, wanted to destroy Israel.
Too many people wish to be deceived into believing that Jewish settlements are a problem, while in reality they are merely an excuse to avoid Israel recognition and continue the aggression against Israel.
Stop being the Palestinians' "useful idiots"!
"Too many people wish to be deceived into believing that Jewish settlements are a problem"
Regardless of the fact that you provide helpful points, the Jewish settlements are CURRENTLY a problem. And increasing them won't make it go away... I hope you can agree on this with the Palestinians' "useful idiots", as you like to call those supporting a 2-state solution, while still not knowing the how-to...
Can you please advise how presence of Jewish settlements in the 'State of Palestine' should be considered a problem?
Aren't there Arab settlements in Israel?
The Jewish settlements are an excuse to avoid real negotiations, and take the 'useful idiots' eyes off the ball. The ball is Palestinian existential aggression against Israel. The constant focus on settlements is aimed at diverting attention from the real problem.
If Jewish settlements were a real problem, then Israel going out of Gaza, including having ALL settlements evacuated from there, should have resulted in peace and quiet, at least in that front.
As it turns out, evacuation of Jewish settlements brought more violence. Learn the lesson, diemm. Making mistakes is one thing. Knowingly repeating them is stupidity.
Black is white and white is black.
You are good and the non-jews are bad, therefore you can do whatever you like to the shikse that you like.
I think understand what you are saying, but I don't think I agree.
Do you not see the writing on the wall? Your murderous times are drawing to a close...
Read this:
"The most startling fact about Israel's performance in the eight days' war in Gaza is the one about which the most egregious lie is being told by western commentators. This is the astoundingly low proportion of Palestinian civilian casualties.
According to the IDF spokesman last evening, 177 Palestinians were killed in Operation Pillar of Defence, of whom 120 were 'engaged in terrorist activity'.
That total is a tiny number of deaths from 1500 air strikes. It also means 57 civilians were killed along with the 120 terrorists. That is a ratio of more than two terrorists for every civilian killed. When you consider that in Afghanistan the ratio was three civilians for every one combatant killed, and in Iraq it was four civilians for every one combatant killed, you can see just what a staggering feat of precision the Israelis achieved. This is even more astonishing given that the Hamas situated their rockets and ammunitions in the middle of civilian areas.
This precision was acknowledged yesterday by American journalist Anderson Cooper, who was interviewed by Wolf Blitzer of CNN after Cooper arrived in Israel from Gaza. Acknowledging that some people would disagree, Cooper said that it was very clear that the IDF clearly knew exactly what it was targeting. Palestinians knew it, too, he said: some of them would go outside to watch and even photograph the attacks, because they knew they were not either the targets or the object of indiscriminate fire. The bottom line was that the Israelis were making clear efforts to hit only military targets.
And the reason for that was that they were trying as hard as they possibly could to avoid hitting civilians. No other army in the world goes to such lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Yet no other army in the world is accused by western commentators, as is the IDF, of targeting not just civilians but babies and children – or at the very least, exhibiting a total indifference to the fact that their air-strikes are killing them.
Reliable figures for the number of children killed do not yet appear to have been published (and such figures are in any event problematic, since the Palestinians use teenagers for terrorist activities). However, UNICEF (no friend of Israel) says that 22 children were killed in the Israeli air strikes. That's 22 too many – but it's still 22 out of 177. Given that more than half of Gaza's population are children, this again underscores the fact that the Israelis were going to great lengths to avoid hitting them. Yet western commentators have grotesquely smeared the Israelis as child-killers.
Amongst those who credulously believe what they see and hear reported about Gaza – in the UK on the BBC, Sky and Channel Four News in particular -- this modern blood-libel not surprisingly rouses them to passionate hatred of Israel. The broadcasters have played a particularly appalling role in this because, notwithstanding the tiny number of child casualties relative to the huge number of air-strikes and the preponderance of terrorists on the casualty list, the BBC, Sky and Channel Four News have been dwelling on distressing footage of the children who were killed. They have thus given the entirely false impression that the number of children killed was very large, and that the Israelis are heartless brutes."
Black is white and white is black.
tzatz: you took the pain of writing seven-paragraphs long comment using logic and data to say one thing: Western media is overstating the number of children death and Palestinian deaths overall... my question to you is simple: is this relevant? Whether it be 1 death or 100 deaths, what's happening in the region is chaotic for both sides - Israel and Palestine.
What bothers me most is that I see two sides of palestinians: Hamas and PLO. The former wants the eradication of Israel, the latter wants a two-states permanent solution. Meanwhile, Bibi and his allies are doing everything possible to make Hamas' vision more justified in the eyes of Palestinians and discredit PLO's actions.
I'm starting to wonder how much is Netanyahu willing to have a two-state solution: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/76144fb6-3d35-11e2-9e13-00144feabdc0.html...
You say:
'my question too you is simple: is this relevant? Whether it be 1 death or 100 deaths...'
When the battle reality is as presented below, the result is inevitable. As tzatz pointed out, Israel goes out of its skin to avoid Palestinian casualties, Children in particular.
Hamas are to be blamed for the many civilian deaths, on both sides.
As much as I would like to, I can't take you for your word. This cartoon proves nothing on what is happening on the ground. You have media that says exactly what you are saying (i.e. Hamas hides behind children) and other media who say Israeli soldiers aim at civilians on purpose.
I personally have never been on the fields during these confrontations and would rather not believe any of both visions.
The root of the problem is still the same: there are two parties in Palestine and Israel's coalition that is leading this country is helping Hamas gather support more than PLO when it decides to build 3000 more houses in zone E1. Period.
Its not funny, its bloody hilarious!...Oh what settlements?? its only a house here and a few houses there, what difference could they make? or this... a wall!- really??? where? no thats not a wall. its tiny compare to the one in china or in berlin... and nuclear bomb?!? what nuclear bomb?!?
Im happy being a 'useful idiot' than a blind one.
OK. You don't want to take both sides spokespeople for granted. That is fine. I respect that.
How about listening to what individuals from third countries, and their testimony?
Let me refer you to UK Colonel Richard Kemp, who testified to the UN following the previous Gaza conflict, operation Cast Lead (2008-2009).
In that operation, the number of Palestinian casualties was almost 10 times more than the most recent Pillar of Defense operation last month.
Watch Col. Richard Kemp:
As per operation Pillar of Defense, where the number of Palestinian casualties was much smaller, watch the ABC correspondent report in a conversation with Israel's Channel 2, describing how the Hamas rockets are launched from a proximity to the hotel where he reports from, as well as from within the city:
Do still not believe the Israeli side?
The root of the Middle East problem is this Arab aggression against Israel aimed at its destruction. This aggression was in full swing before the 1967 war, before there was any Jewish settlement in the West Bank.
The Jewish settlements serve first and foremost as a diversion to make people move their eyes from the ball – the existential aggression against Israel. The settlements are merely an excuse to continue that aggression, and this can be proved:
Israel wen't out of Gaza, evacuated ALL Jewish settlements – and the Aggression against Israel only intensified. One has to blind not to understand that..
You know, alandot, it just occurred to me.
In your previous post you mentioned that "Isreal's weaponds of mass destrcution = Settlements".
In parallel to this article, there is another one on Syria called 'Syria's crisis, Bashar bashed'
In that conflict, as you know, over 40,000 people are dead, but... in that REAL mass destruction case, you alandot, didn't bother to place a SINGLE post!
While at this point on the Israeli issue there are already 158 posts, many referring to house building and how 'horrible' that is.
On the Syrian case article, where Crimes Against Humanity occur every single day, only 25 people bothered to comment…
Personally, this hypocritical world makes me want to puke..
Did you notice … my post was in quotation marks … that is, they are from an article I read on the coverage … refuting the comment of the poster … Sebastardin
Your diatribes are worthless as propaganda because no one actually believes anything you say.
Your colonialist actions will eventually fail when the other side gets and uses a nuke in one of the made up jewish cities in Palestine.
At that point you will see many partially sizzling jews running to live with their aunts in New York and Florida. What you will also hear is a sigh of relief from the peoples of almost the entire world (except of course from the governments of America, Canada, Micronesia, and the other two that voted as you commanded them to on the last vote against your colonial experiment in the UN).
We the majority don't now, and never really have cared for your attitude and will shed no tears at the demise you bring on yourself.
I hope the past 65 years of the jewish colonial experiment in Palestine has been enjoyable, and would love to watch another 30 or so years of it (my luck to both sides in their attempt to destroy each other), but all good jokes must eventually give way to a punchline. That is the best part.
I, of course, will always sleep well knowing that I am not part of the joke and get to watch another firestorm from a distance. So on with the show!
So … the punchline is firestorm over Tel Aviv? Is that it? That's YOUR best 'vision' of the future? Sebastardin!
Haven't the Israelis ALWAYS shown YOU and your 'ilk' that they're NOT PREPARED to take the 'chance' … that they will 'PREEMPT'?
Do you really believe the 'sad sack' Arabs will be in a position to give up on their future as well? That the 'we love death more than you love life' crowd will be a tiny bit reticent in pushing that button? [Just like Assad today is just a bit afraid of his WMD's getting into the 'wrong' hands and that they're worth less than he thought?] Since Israel will be sure to drop 200 bombs on their necks if they so much as have 1 detonate on the Jewish State … proportional enough for you? And this is your vision of a world you'd like to live in and 'watch' from your corner of the world? Read the book … ON THE BEACH … I know you Arab/Muslims don't read much so maybe see the film … even slugs have eyes …
"We the majority" still live in the shit hole that is the Arab/Muslim Middle East … Cairo … Damascus … Aleppo … bring along a clothes pin for your nose … or don't bother to breathe … the stink is overwhelming I'm told … and that's TODAY … let alone what's in store for you … you don't 'frighten' the Jews/Zionists/Israels … YOU and your 'ilk' … Never Again … Count on it.
The results can already be seen at Gaza's port. Markets heave with rarely seen sea bass, red mullet and devilfish, thanks to Israel's decision to double the distance that Gaza's fishermen can sail from shore. "For years we went to the UN, to international organisations and the Red Cross in search of a few metres more to fish in to no avail," says a senior agriculture-ministry official, who was recruited by Mr Abbas's Palestinian Authority. "Only the resistance worked."
Wow Palestinians cant even go fishing in their own territorial waters, Hamas has every legitimacy in their struggle against Israel. The occupation, land theft, colonization of Palestinian lands should end.
Enough is enough.
Get to the table!
There won't be PEACE unless there's direct eyeball to eyeball negotiations with the Israelis … and an END OF CONFLICT PEACE AGREEMENT with the Arab/Muslim states NOT ONLY THE PALESTINIANS … ONLY the Israelis removing themselves from the West Bank can achieve sovereignty for the Palestinians …
Hamas is a different ball of wax … if as a sovereign country they start to lob missiles at Israel … let's just say … the gloves will be off … count on it!
Yep, You are right. "Enough is enough." with Hamas rockets launched from Gaza onto Israelis civilians.
Enough is enough with Hamas preach hatred of Jews.
Enough is enough, for Arabs to blame all their ills and failures on Jews or Israelis. time to take responsibility for their their actions.
Enough is enough with Arabs constant cry demand from others, and start to contribute their share to humanities - besides oil.
yes Enough is enough.
You say:
"Wow Palestinians can't even go fishing in their own territorial waters, Hamas has every legitimacy in their struggle against Israel."
It is the other way around, Kursato. Before the Hamas coup against the PA in Gaza, the fishing distance was as it is today following operation Pillar of Cloud.
It was reduced when Hamas increased its rocket fire on Israel. Now, that Hamas stopped completely the rocket fire, Israel has no problem for the Gazans to go fishing at a distance, as there is smaller risk at this point of time they will use this greater freedom to smuggle weapons through the sea.
If Hamas end its systematic war crimes campaign, as part of their existential aggression against Israel, all limitations will be removed - no blockade, no goods screening, etc.
Leave Palestine!
There won't be peace until the jews end their colonial experiment and leave Palestine. If they leave of their own accord, or wait until they are not the only ones in the region who have nukes, makes no difference. In fact it makes no difference if they leave after the nukes have started. They simply do not belong there. It only take one look at a Kazar jew to see that they are not of the Middle East.
Peace to you titz
The Jews/Zionists/Israelis aren't going ANYWHERE.
They will be standing their ground on the land of their forefathers whether you like it or not …
You've pushed all you can push on the Israelis and where has that gotten you and your 'ilk'?
The current 'chaos' in the Arab/Muslim Middle East is the PERFECT vision of what is WRONG WITH THE ARAB/MUSLIMS
Tell me …
Is the chaos in Cairo & Egypt … due to Israel?
Is the chaos in Syria … due to Israel?
Is the chaos in Benghazi/Libya … due to Israel?
Is the chaos in Yemen/Somalia/Bahrain/Jordan/Iraq … due to Israel?
The 'majority' of PLANET EARTH accept the JEWISH STATE …
it's YOU and YOUR ARAB/MUSLIM BROTHERS that are the MINORITY who would like to get rid of the JEWISH STATE …
so YOU'RE THE MINORITY HERE ON PLANET EARTH …
You'll continue to suffer pain and suffering … whether real or psychic … wherever you live … as long as you live. LOL
The promised land
The Israelis should understand two things:
a) the divine promise of a homeland is not history; it is only an ancient religious legend;
b)Palestine belongs to Palestinians, not to Israelis. Many peoples have lost their homeland: the north and south american Indians, the aborigenes in Australia, etc. So did Israel two thousand years ago. And the Palestinians have lost part of their homeland.
Peace will come only if peoples forget about myths, legends and ideologies and accept the situation as it is now.
2 States for 2 Peoples … I couldn't agree more
The 'devil' is in the details … read the Clinton Parameters … if the Arab/Muslims follow the 'bouncing ball' … this is a DONE DEAL …
AND.............Palestinians (and other Muslims) also need to understand that:.
1. The fact that, their prophet had only seen Jerusalem in his dream - that does not give Muslims any right to declare this city as their "holy site" - moreover try to de-legitimize Jews 4000 year history & continued presence in this region.
2. As the "johnny come lately' 3rd religion in the pecking order, they need to respect other religions of Judea & Christianity, which are older then Islam. Instead of the need to destroy them, as means to legitimize their own religion.
3. Need to learn to live in peace, and respect other non-Muslims god given right to live in this area, Abraham, Issac, along with all other Jews prophets, and Jesus - they were preaching Judaism - NOT Islam. Recognize the fact, as Christianity does, Islam also draws its basic religious tenets from Judaism, and respect the "people of the book".
If by now people STILL are not convinced that, this conflict is all about religious doctrine and Muslims intolerance to other religious - then please, show me anywhere else non-Muslims minorities throughout the Islamic countries, have not been persecuted and harassed - even to-date.
Arab & Muslims do not hate Jews Since Israel was born. They hate them since Islam was born.
Finally. I do agree with you:
Quote: "Peace will come only if peoples forget about myths, legends and ideologies and accept the situation as it is now."
The world hates Jews, and the level of Antisemitism reached its 1937 peak in 2004. The only difference is a euphemism Antizionism, which is the same old stinky Antisemitism. People are fed by a sob story how Jews stole land from peaceful Palestinians, and the only choice this under the occupation nation has is resistance. Moreover, Jews do not let Palestinians have a state and kill children and women. In conclusion, the only way to achieve peace in ME is to get rid of Jews from Palestine, which is fair and square. If you compare this notion with Hitler's Main Campf you will find so much in common.
Wow. Can someone translate this rant to me in 'plain English'?
"A Hungarian Joke: During the June 1967 war, a Hungarian meets his friend. "Why do you look so happy?" he asks. "I heard that the Israelis shot down six Soviet-made MiGs today," his friend replies.
The next day, the friend looks even more jubilant. "The Israelis downed another eight MiGs," he announces.
On the third day, the friend is crestfallen. "What happened? Didn't the Israelis down any MiGs today?" the man asks. "They did," the friend answers, "But today someone told me that the Israelis are Jews!"
This is the whole story in a nutshell".
The punch line of the joke at you tell it goes:
' "But today someone told me that the Israelis are Jews!"
This is the whole story in a nutshell". '
Indeed, this tells you everything you need to know - Many People go after Israel not because of what it does, but for being a Jewish state.
This is a major form of Modern anti-Semitism.
Ok … I got it … now I read your comment and understood where you were coming from …
There are so many anti-Semites/anti-Zionists comparing Jews as Nazis … I needed clarification …
Kol Tov … baroor
"The world hates Jews"
Most the world doesn't care about Jews. My boss is an American Jew, I couldn't care less.
What most of the world doesn't like is the attitude of the Israelis, where a minority of the world's Jews lives. What most of the world doesn't like is Jewish fundamentalism, like any other fundamentalism for that matter, be it Catholic, Islamic, Hindus... We love it laic.
Get over the Jewish problem, this is a nation-state issue, not an ethnic issue. I don't like Isreal's foreign policy, that's all. And I don't like fundamentalists, from wherever they come.
You said: "… this is a nation-state issue … I don't like Isreal's foreign policy …"
Fine … you don't like Israel's foreign policy … THAT'S FINE … I don't like Hungary's foreign policy … or China's or North Korea's or any number of other countries around the globe BUT DO YOU HEAR ABOUT THEM ON AN HOURLY BASIS? On TV? Radio? HOURLY?
There does seem to be something 'peculiar' about the WORLD'S FIXATION on Israel's foreign policy vis a vis the Arab/Muslims!
Did you hear this:
It details WHY the world changed its outlook on the Arab/Israeli Conflict and WHEN …
As I've said … MOST PEOPLE on this blog … were born AFTER 1973 … their awareness of the Arab OIL EMBARGO or the 'hurt' the Arabs put on the West at that time and going forward or the 'ZIONISM IS RACISM' the Arabs got passed at the United Nations … wasn't something they've analyzed … the Arab/Israeli Conflict is something THEY'VE GROWN UP WITH IN THE AIR THEY BREATHE! It's always been about ISRAEL pounding on the poor undefended Palestinians or so we've been lead to believe. That's the liberal Western Press's take … that's what the knee-jerk reaction of the West has been reduced to.
I'm not buying into that rhetoric … I've got my eyes wide open … its not about fundamentalists … Israel is not a colonial enterprise … it is not a monolithic politically religio-fundamentalist state … it's a Western-style liberal democracy surrounded by Arab/Muslim states that remain hostile to its very existence … the Arab League DOES NOT RECOGNIZE Israel … they have economically EMBARGOED Israel since 1948 … so literally … Israel and ALL THE ARAB/MUSLIM STATES ARE IN A STATE OF WAR … that's what needs to end …
The fallout in Gaza. Squeezed from both sides. How to create enemies. The clumsy remarks made by the Israel government to build 3,000 more housing units in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank will have effect. Israel's friends are getting inpatient. Would America go to war for "This Israel"?
No. The Israelis have never asked 'America to go to War' on Israel's behalf … they've been able to handle all the Arab/Muslims have thrown at them … the Arab/Muslims don't want to go to war against the Israelis … they want to go to war by another name … LAWFARE …
The Arab/Muslims are now fighting within their own states … it will be YEARS before they can get it together to 'try' a combined attack on Israel … but by then Israel will ALSO be in a different position … with the most advanced anti-missile missile system on the Planet … drones with enhanced capabilities … perhaps robotic soldiers …
There's a quantum difference between the 'skill set' the Israelis bring to the table and what the Arab/Muslims bring to the table … if one had a chart to compare it … the Arab/Muslim would have a flat line across the bottom and the Israelis would have a line going off at a 45º angle going UP … this might get ugly as time goes forward but let's face it … there is a difference!
There will be no Peace unless the Arab/Muslims accept a sovereign strong Jewish State … there must be an END OF CONFLICT SETTLEMENT between the Arab/Muslim World and Israel … the Arab League NEEDS to sign on … otherwise … the status quo ante will continue … it might be unacceptable to Hamas or the PA … but they've got to realize their options … accept their fate and GET TO THE TABLE …
few things need to be clarifies.
E. Jerusalem is the ancient city of which Jews had built 3300 years ago. It was the capital & spiritual center, of ancient Israel, and is is now. the spiritual center for all Jews - not only to the Israelis..
It is the place where Israel's crown Jewel Hebrew University which had produced Nobel Laureates is located.
Furthermore, Jerusalem today is a unified city, and is at its glory. Each of 3 religions, have absolute access to their respective holy sites - fully respected by Israel. Prior to 1967, old quarter was a derelict town, where the site of the Wailing wall was used as public dumpster for the araa neighborhood - so much for respecting other religion.
pundits must be out of their mind if they think, Israelis are going to surrender this city to the Pals, or face the prospect of having to ask permission from the Arabs to visit these places. That is not going to happen.
The fact is, the only time Jerusalem was at peace - it was under Jewish control.
West Bank may be an occupied area. E. Jerusalem is not. After 1900 yeas of forced Diaspora, Jews had reclaimed their city, and their own heritage and identity as proud Jews - same city which they never ever had given up hope of some day return to.
Today, the unified Jerusalem (E & W) is at its glory - that is, because Jews had restored it as crown Jewel of all 3 religions, in which, all adherents freely mingle and interact with others, and enjoy unobstructed access to their own respective holy sites to pray and reflect.
The only reason, Pals insist on E. Jerusalem is, a) their prophet "saw it in its dream". That is not enough excuse to deprive Jews of their ancestral city which they had built. b) This is yet another fundamentalist Islamic mantra of Muslims need to dominate Jews and Christiansen's holy sites, to validate their own religion of Islam. That nonsense must change.
No need to tear this magnificent city apart and divide it. Israel has all the rights to build their city of Jerusalem. Pals already have a fully functioning capital city named "Ramallah".
I'll place a wager that once another middle eastern country gets the bomb, lots of jews will be leaving the colonized territories to visit their aunts and uncles in Florida, so why not just leave now??
Because … you don't let children play with matches … do you?
The Israelis aren't going anywhere … after 2000 YEARS they're home! There will be no more wandering … no more threatening the Jewish People … they've got the right to protect themselves … they'll do just fine …
Don't make idle threats!
Sadaam Hussein made idle threats and look where that got him? Down a spider hole and the gallows while his children were killed …
Gadaffi made idle threats and look where that got him? Dragged out of a sewer pipe shot in the head after being abused while his children are to be tried …
Don't think the 'loud mouths' in Iran will have a different fate! Just like their 'bros' in Gaza … their idle threats will only bring them unimaginable pain and suffering … Inshallah
It's too bad that in ALL cases above … the Arab/Muslim people have to suffer at the hands of their leaders … but guess what … that's the nature of the world!
Germans suffered from Hitler's leadership … 10 MILLION DEAD GERMANS
Russians suffered from Stalin's leadership … 20 MILLION DEAD
Chinese suffered from Mao's leadership … 78 MILLION DEAD
Cambodians suffered from Pol Pot's leadership … 2 MILLION DEAD
and so it goes …
Gazans suffer from Hamas's leadership
Iranians suffer from Khamanei's leadership
and so it goes …
The more I read, the more I wonder whether the Israeli government wants peace at all. Time after time, they expand settlements and breed contempt, and then feign weakness when the thugs in Gaza respond. This last round, they broke a provision ceasefire by assassinating a Hamas official. Now, I hate Hamas, but is Israel stupid or just interested in keeping this conflict going?
This recent sidelining of the PA smacks of the same policy with the PLO before: purposefully stalemate talks with the 'moderates' while intentionally feeding the extremist faction. Then, the extremists take the helm and Israel finds itself in conflict again. History is repeating itself, seemingly on purpose. Is this a ploy to allow further settlement of the West Bank, thereby crowding the Palestinians out of Jerusalem, enabling Israel to grab the whole city later on?
You say:
'Time after time, they expand settlements and breed contempt...'
Ah, it is the settlements being the problem, right?
So maybe you can be so gracious and explain us al, why priori to 1967, when there was not a single Settlement in the West Bank and Gaza - in fact, there wasn't a SINGLE JEW in those areas - why at that time there wasn't a single Arab state willing to recognize Israel's right to exist? - Why was the PLO, the Palestine Liberation Organization, established in 1964? - What was there to liberate in 1967, when no Jewish settlement existed in the West Bank?
The Jewish settlements are nothing but easy-to-sell excuse for the continuation of aggression against Israel aimed at its destruction.
Again Space Pope,
The core and kernel of the conflict, is Arabs & Muslims refusal to accept any notion, Jews right to self determinations, or live in their own states - regardless how small it is.
for more then 1350 years, Muslims have got used to the idea, Jews always had lived under Islam. They knew their lower status, and never talked back to Muslims, or fought us (Muslims) back. How dare they to break that long "tradition" and holy mantra.
This is exactly the mind set with which Jews and Israelis are fighting against for past 70 years - not a piece of land. This sick mind set, has to change, and the only ones who can change it, is Muslims themselves.
Unfortunately, Muslims in ME are still stuck both feet in their past glory - unable to meet the challenges of today, or change for a brighter future for all.
The settlements are one of the main reasons today, yes. The motivating factors can change over time. At the beginning, the reasons were related to the declaration of a state on what had been seen as Arab lands. And there was considerable racism and sectarianism against Jews, to be sure.
Today peace eludes Israel for different reasons. The combined weight of its Arab neighbors has been shown to be insufficient to 'reclaim' the lands. And Israel has a clear right to exist in the eyes of the major players in the world. So your appeal to the weak, helpless Jewish state is disingenuous. Hamas poses a exceedingly minor threat to Israel, let alone its survival.
But all of this is superfluous. Answer this honestly: do you believe Israel has a right to the land, despite where the borders lie? Why is settlement expansion, by itself, legitimate? Even if settlements were not the cause of today's problems, do you honestly think Israel is doing the right thing?
Look, while I understand the mindset you highlight, and have seen the most horrible things advocated on Palestinian TV, none of it matters. Israel is no longer worried about survival. It can soundly defeat any aggressor, including Iran. Further, it has backing of US, which will never accept Israel's destruction.
And while you claim Israel is a pariah among its neighbors, it has a long (strained) relationship with Egypt, was very close to Turkey, has security understandings with nearly every neighbor. It is not under siege as it was in 1967.
Back to the core of the conflict today: Israel exercises its power without concern for its neighbors. If it sees a threat in Gaza, it bombs without hesitation. In West Bank, it conducts incursions rather than use the PA security forces. It behaves as if it is regional hegemon, because it is. Further, when it decides it wants land (whether it belongs to Israel or not), it seizes the land. This is not the way to breed trust and cooperation. This is the way to breed contempt and invite backlash.
Simple question: is there any reasonable way to defend settlement expansion?
There is a SEPARATION WALL … between the PA area and Israel … that wall will form the borders of the State of Israel … there will be offsets offered to the Arab/Muslims …
The major Jewish Settlements and the Jewish suburbs surrounding Jerusalem will be WITHIN the Jewish State …
Beyond these areas … I don't think Jewish People need to live … within the Separation Wall … YES I DO.
But … this is my vision … 70% of Israelis consistently Poll that they accept a 2 State Solution … IT'S THEIR CHOICE … frankly … they live there … as a Canadian I can only express MY vision … but I believe it is what the overwhelming majority of Israelis would accept as well …
Here's the problem: this barrier is largely following the 1967 borders, which Israel had, for decades, agreed would form the basis for the 2 state plan. But recently, Bibi Netanyahu has said these borders were "indefensible" and now says Israel will not return to these borders. Not only this, but Israel is actively allowing its citizens to 'settle' (this means steal) land WITHIN the West Bank, on the other side of both the barrier AND the 1967 borders. As part of this, they're setting up massive 'enclaves' around Jerusalem, so that they can redraw the border even further.
Israel says it accepts the 2 state solution, but its actions say otherwise. And since the international community has passed resolutions, it is NOT Israel's choice. Violating the terms of the accords is illegal. It doesn't matter if only 3 Israelis accept it, they are bound by law.
You say:
'Israel is no longer worried about survival. It can soundly defeat any aggressor, including Iran.'
For as long as there are nations committed to Israel's destruction; For as long as dozens of nations refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State; for as long as its direct neighbors are committed to the Jewish people' s genocide - Israel MUST be worried about its survival.
Do you really think Israel 'is no longer worried about survival'? - Really?!?
If that is case Israel can dismantle the IDF, right? - What do you think will happen if Israel does that?
I will tell you: The day after, literally the day after, Israel will drown under a wave of Arabs flocking from all around Israel, and make the horrific scenes coming out of Syria's civil war look like a work in the park in comparison to what will be done to Jews, if the IDF is dismantled.
Israel DOES worry for its survival. The worry is the only thing that keeps it alive!!
You say:
'Israel exercises its power without concern for its neighbors. If it sees a threat in Gaza, it bombs without hesitation. In West Bank, it conducts incursions...'
Israel excercises its right for self defense, not its poower, and definitely noit without concern. It all starts with aggression aganist Israel. If no aggression applied on Israel - No need Israeli bombs flying into Gaza, or incursions in the West Bank.
You say:
'It [Israel] behaves as if it is regional hegemon, because it is.'
Israel behaves like someone who is constantly under attack. Period. End attacks on Israel - and I promise you, no Arab will know how the face of an Israeli soldier looks like.
You say:
'Further, when it [Israel] decides it wants land (whether it belongs to Israel or not), it seizes the land. This is not the way to breed trust and cooperation. This is the way to breed contempt and invite backlash.'
Here we get to another core excuse - the 'occupation'.
This terminology is wrong. Like in many world territorial disputes, the West Bank should also be regarded as disputed territories, not occupied. Two main reasons for that:
1. Israel captured this area from Jordan, which in itself was an unrecognized ruler of that area (only Pakistan and the UK recognized its rule of the West Bank). Before Jordan, it was British Mandate who ruled, before that the Ottomans. In short - While Israel seized that land, to was not taken from any sovereign nation who legally owned it.
2. While the Palestinians today claim it be theirs (remember: before the 1967 'occupation' of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, NOT A SIONGLE PALESTINIAN demanded the establishment of Palestine over the West Bank & Gaza, having East Jerusalem as its capital), they never owned it, and therefore Israel didn't 'occupy' it from them.
The Werst Bank is the cradle of Jewish national life and culture. Israel have legitimate claim to the land as well. Having said that, Israel was prepared, before 1967, to end the conflict based on the then existing borders. Israel's neighbors refused, and continued their existential aggression against it.
Aggression comes with a price tag. Aggressors lose territories; Like Germany did to Russia and Poland.
As per settlements - What's wrong with Jewish settlement, even if they are established on a land eventually to be part of Palestine? - Aren't there Arab towns and villages in Israel too?
Perhaps the jews should stop the colonization and go back to the Ukraine/New York. That would start the peace process.
Maybe Palestinians should go back to Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt and wherever else they came from … certainly … MOST of them were not from Mandate Palestine historically … that's clear!
After all … who was considered 'Palestinian' in 1946 were Arabs who had lived in Mandate Palestine for the previous 2 YEARS! Hello? Not centuries … JUST 2 YEARS! LOL
The Arab/Muslims don't want to/can't acknowledge the fact … they must follow the world's prescription of Partition … 2 States for 2 Peoples …
The Arab/Muslims went to war in 1948 … 1967 … 1973 … 2006 … 2008/9 … 2012 … against 'tiny' Israel … a nation-state with ONLY 7 million citizens (1.2 Million of whom are Arab/Muslims!)
they won't be going 'back to the Ukraine/New York' EXCEPT FOR VACATIONS!!! LOL But frankly, the weather's better in Israel!!
You say:
'Perhaps the jews should stop the colonization and go back to the Ukraine/New York. That would start the peace process.'
Maybe the Palestinians should go back to where they came from.
Listen to the Hamas Interior Minister, Fathi Hammed, admitting that half the Palestinians are Egyptians, and the other half Sudanese.
Watch, particularly from minute 1:50 in the clip:
The 1967 'borders' were never recognized as BORDERS … they are/were the Armistice Line of 1949 … the Arab/Muslims DIDN'T RECOGNIZE the Jewish State … therefore … NO BORDERS COULD BE FINALIZED …
After 1967 … UN242 … acknowledged that Israel must give up 'some' but NOT ALL land acquired … therefore … that's exactly WHAT'S HAPPENED … ISRAEL has not/will not return to the 1949 Armistice Line …
Just because during the War of Independence … the Arab/Muslims REMOVED the Jews from the 'old City' and ended up with it on 'their' side … does not mean anything! It doesn't mean they get to keep it in perpetuity … Read the Clinton Parameters
The Jewish State will retain ALL THE NEW JEWISH NEIGHBOURHOODS surrounding Jerusalem … Dennis Ross in a recent talk in Toronto … said … 'there are 10 suburbs in Jerusalem as per the Clinton Parameters … 8 will remain in Israel and 2 will remain Arab …
The Major Jewish Settlements are WITHIN the Separation Wall and will form the 'border' … with offsets given to the Arabs
These issues have been discussed and worked out for years … since 2000 … it's the Arab/Muslims that are reticent in signing off on an END OF CONFLICT SETTLEMENT … when they do there will be closure … NOT BEFORE
The Israelis have many various constituencies within THEIR own society as well … some want to retain ALL the West Bank … BUT 70% SAY THEY ARE WILLING TO MAKE A DEAL BASED ON RECEIVING AN END OF CONFLICT SETTLEMENT from the Arab/Muslims …
Get to the table!
There will be NO SHORTCUTS … no freebies! It's either negotiated … or the Israelis will continue their 'occupation' of the Arab/Muslims!
The Israelis WILL NOT unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank … NOT A CHANCE … without an END OF CONFLICT PEACE AGREEMENT.
The only nation that appears to be actively deploying resources to destroying Israel is Iran, but even that is sketchy. What they've done has only been capable of damaging Israel via proxies. The Arabs talk of genocide, but they have no capability and the West (especially the US) render the threat void. The talk of survival is a tool. It has basis only in Arab rhetoric and in a minority of Arab fantasies.
Dismantling the IDF is laughable. Its existence changed the Arab calculus. Removing it would change it again. Yet US guarantees would still be a "convincing" argument for peace.
As for worry, if fear of destruction is the only thing animating Israel, it is doomed to fail already, whether Arabs want it to die or not. Surviving just to survive is just pointless.
You said: "… US guarantees would still be a "convincing" argument for peace."
Americans don't/won't want to go to war on behalf of Israel … AND … Israel DOES NOT CONTRACT OUT IT'S OWN DEFENSE. Never Again.
You said: "Surviving just to survive is just pointless"
Israel has a 'magic' cultural life … Israelis live life to the fullest. Tel Aviv is a 'party town' that is one of the top 'excitement' places on Planet Earth! Experience it yourself.
You said: "The Arabs talk of genocide …"
Talk leads to actions … NO ONE can today sit idly by as 340 MILLION ARAB/MUSLIMS continue to talk about the genocide of another People. Never again! It's the Arab/Muslims that will go down in attempting to cause the death and destruction of the Jewish PEOPLE make NO MISTAKE …
You're framing it rhetorically. There are numerous examples of unilateral Israeli action in "its sphere" where it blatantly disregarded its neighbors and world powers. This isn't my opinion, Israel readily admits to this. Israel also admits to taking preemptive action against potential future aggression. And Mossad has no problem implicating the US in its actions in Iran. This contradicts this "always defensive" narrative.
If Israel was concerned about the attacks, it would change its policy and push for peace. It flouts peace prospects by grabbing land which DOES NOT BELONG TO IT. This is not the action of a desperate, frightened actor. They are more than willing to continue this game. Which makes you wonder why...
I didn't say occupation. Israel ended its occupation of Lebanon, Sinai, and Gaza. I'd be willing to even say that Israel is no longer occupying the West Bank. But, well, you know.
This exposes your true feelings. You do not recognize the existence of Gaza or the West bank, you are denying their existence while crying about them returning the favor. You ignore the Arab and Berbers who lived on the land because "they weren't a country" but lay claim to the land using the same historical foundation. You're not being honest.
And the Palestinians didn't demand a state because they were fine with the arrangement as it was. Until the land around them became a new state and the tension with their new neighbors. They held the land, it makes no difference whether they had a fancy name or not.
The West Bank is an area of great cultural importance and identity to Jews, to be sure. But Jews were not the only inhabitants of that land. Even your precious Old Testament admits as much. But I guess it also commands their slaughter. Hmm.
Regardless, Israel's historical "rights" (can I go steal land from Scotland and declare myself a country?) do not exceed those of its other residents. To say otherwise smacks of racial supremicism.
Yes, the Arab aggressors DID lose the land and rightly deserved to be beaten as they were. Let me be clear, I am no enemy of Israel. There are some great people there and I would never wish for them to be harmed. But their government is making exceedingly poor decisions. These choices are pushing its friends away and making its enemies more violent. This is bad strategy and patently unfair to the decent Palestinians.
What's wrong with settlements? International law. Self-harm. The concept of stealing what doesn't belong to you. Pissing off the neighbors is only worthwhile if you gain more by doing so. Israel is not. And the Arab areas of Israel are largely areas and populations that pre-date the creation of Israel. Or are areas where Arabs are 'encouraged' to live. Massive difference.
Sorry levi, jews can have self determination all they like, but I think the Palestinians just want them to have it outside of Palestine. Which from an outsiders perspective seems like a fair enough Palestinian desire.
PS You don't by any chance have a dog in this fight do you?
You say:
'The Arabs talk of genocide, but they have no capability...'
I am sure that that if your next door neighbor wouldthreaten your life, Space Pope, you would immediately press charges, even is that neighbor doesn't own a gun.
Talk about Genocide is a crime in itself. History tought us, that if one nation threatens the very existence of another - we better believe they mean what they say!
israel should live p[ecaefully, not because it continuesly prevents it would be geniociders from obtaining the means to execute their plans. Iran's leaders, as well as Hamas, PLO, and the rest of Israel's committed obliterators should have been stood trial a long time ago.
The US and anybody else wouldn't be able to help Israel even if they, or israel, wanted them to. By the time they would reach Israel, it would be game over already.
Looking at waht does on in Syria, where for the past 21 mo9nths over 40,000 people were killed, it seems it takes at least 21 months and... no one really does anything to stop it. Doesn't instill much confidence in what is called the 'international community'.
When the shit hits the fan - Israel would be on its own..
Survival instinct is the basis of every being. Israel, however, is much beyond that.
Israel is with the highest fertility rate among OECD nations:
Israel is ranked the world's 3rd highest life expectancy:
Israel is among OECD ranking of the 25 best countries to live in:
Israel is ranked 38-41 in nominal GDP, while its population is ranked the world's 97th.
You say:
'Israel also admits to taking preemptive action against potential future aggression.'
If someone is committed to destroy you, the problem IS THAT HE WANTS TO DESTROY YOU, not that you prevent him from choosing the time when he tries to perform his crime!
You say:
'If Israel was concerned about the attacks, it would change its policy and push for peace.'
Israel was prepared prior to 1967, to sign a peace agreement based on the then existing boundaries. This Israel call for peace was answers by repeated threats on Israel's existence. That's how they got themselves occupied in the first place.
Ends the existential threat, and there would be no need for Israel to watch over its neighbors.
It's true these are armistice lines, but they have always been the basis for national boundaries in negotiations. This means Israel's disregarding of these lines is especially harmful for future prospective negotiations. This new planned E-1 settlement is far more harmful, as it will completely encapsulate Arab areas of East Jerusalem within Jewish areas, making it exceedingly difficult to bring about the two-state plan, which allows Arabs to keep pieces of Jerusalem.
You say that all major Jewish settlements are with the barrier wall, but this is untrue. There are sprawling settlement areas that are far bound the armistice lines; so far, in fact, that they are planning new barriers around these blocs.
You decry Arab reticence for negotiations, but Israel is actively undermining the foundation of these future talks. I assure you that Arabs will launch another intifada if they see Israel trying to seal Jerusalem off and that cooperation has no benefits. Israel is burning the bridges it plans to cross for peace.
I'm not asking Israel to rely on us. Hell, it'd be nice if it took less of our money every year. But to say it doesn't contract out for its defense is laughably wrong. Look at how much it buys from the US. Then look at the money it receives in defense aid. Then look at the Iron Dome. Israel knows who it counts on for defense.
As for survival, I know that Israel has much to offer. I was criticizing your claim that it can only think of survival and nothing else. Or that it only survives to survive. In other words, Tel Aviv would be partying less if it feared for its existence.
On genocide, no one is 'sitting by' while they talk. Israel is friends with the greatest superpower the world has ever seen, has both an American nuclear umbrella and its own, enjoys billions in defense assistance, and is stronger than any of its neighbors. If the Arabs moved to put these words into action, even EUROPE would intervene for Israel. No one has any doubt of that. Why else would Jordan and Egypt (and Al Saud) never again entertain ideas of harming Israel. The cost would be far too great to bear.
If my neighbor credibly threatened my life, I would do more than press charges. But that does not mean it's the best idea.
To talk of genocide is criminal and immoral, I agree that it cannot be taken lightly. But it is clear that Palestine could not commit this genocide, even if it came down to just Israel against Hamas. But Israel would NEVER contend with genocidal designs alone. You say we wouldn't make it 'in time', but do you realize how many troops and material we have in the region. We have AT LEAST two carrier groups straddling Israel at most times (3 nearby now). Our response would be hours, and it would be decisive. Let's not kid ourselves.
In Syria, you understand the difference. Not only is Syria not nearly as strategic as Israel is, but it is not a friend, whereas Israel is joined to our hip. Be honest here.
And yes, Israel is as great country, full of great people. I favor Israel and consider myself a friend. But friends tell friends when they're making a mistake. And Israel is hurting itself with its behavior right now.
My point is that Israel is free to take such action without worrying of sparking a larger war which it may lose. It does not fear Gaza as much as the rhetoric claims, or it would be far more careful. It has the luxury of preempting Gazan aggression because it enjoys massive superiority.
Saying the Palestinians shunned peace in 1967 and previously is correct and I agree with you, but you're essentially saying that "they lost their chance, now they get nothing." Since occupation ended, Israel deemed themselves safe enough to disengage. Otherwise they would still be in the territories.
The threat posed by Gaza is no longer existential. The Iron Dome makes the threat even more limited. In Israel's recent clashes, Israel lost 6 to Gaza's 177. These are Israel's numbers. Gaza unleashed their most advanced weaponry and still could not threaten Israel on a level field. The threat remains serious, and I love to see Hamas officials thrown into the ground, but the threat is not to Israel's survival.
What it is still fascinating is to see the general pro- Jewish opinion in the west world.. Israel is oppressing a whole folk for more than 60 years, wesbank and Gaza is the biggest prison and concentration camp in the world. Israel is doing the similar genocide against the Palestinians as the nazist did 60 years ago.
When the media speaks about the rackets from Gaza it is a drop in the sea compares to what the Jewish are doing agains the Palestinian. When are we going to open our eyes in the west to stop the Jewish genocide against the Palestinians?
You're spouting BS … you're a 'TV historian' … you are shown the world by the TV talking heads and are made to react to what you're viewing! It's an emotional response … mothers crying and wailing … buildings destroyed et al
What do you know about Hamas and their 'doublespeak' …
Meshel said he would 'accept' a state on 1967 borders and all Palestinian rights … What does that mean? What does that look like? His charter says 'death to the Jews' NOT ISRAELIS … he doesn't even recognize Israel … now why would Israel allow Hamas to bring any and all weapons it could through its port? Huh? BTW … the Hamas thugs INSIDE Gaza … don't accept the UN Vote … they will not accept a state on 1967 borders! So how many voices speak for the Palestinians?
Abbas wants a state … based on the 1967 borders … but he too wants the 'right of return' and East Jerusalem.
Don't you think he better talk to the Israelis who are the only ones who need to disengage since it is their troops that must withdraw? They will NOT WITHDRAW without a PERMANENT END OF CONFLICT SETTLEMENT. This is in accord with the Oslo Peace Accords … ONLY A STATE THROUGH NEGOTIATIONS … NO UNILATERAL MOVES!
The vote at the UN is/was a joke! The Palestinians can't accept their fate … NO RIGHT OF RETURN … NO OFFENSIVE MILITARY … NO OFFENSIVE FOREIGN POLICIES … the Israelis will not remove themselves until they have a Peace Agreement that they can sign … that is, one that they can accept. No Peace Agreement/Treaty … NO PALESTINE STATE. Get to the table.
Comments like this make your contribution to the debate meaningless
There are 10 times as many Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza as there were in 1948. After the Nazis were done in WW 2 they killed off most of the Jews in Europe and a 3rd of the Jews in the world.
Learn some history and stop posting crap.
It is you who is spoutin BS!
You must be kidding when you say that Palestinians do not want to accept 1967 border!
Whom are you fooling! You guys live in fantasy land!
It is Israel which has been staeling land every year.
The UN Security Council Res 242 is all but dead! USA is a patsy of Zionst lobbies and wont tell Israel to obey the world opinon!
You said: " UN Security Council Res 242 is all but dead!"
Security Council resolutions CANNOT BE AVOIDED … they stated that Israel will not have to give up ALL THE TERRITORIES … it's quite explicit … the Arab/Muslims may not 'like' what they hear … but then again they didn't like Partition on 1947 either and look where that got them!
Since 2000 … Barak made the offer and Clinton COULDN'T BELIEVE Arafat didn't take it!!!! Dennis Ross … who was in the same room … who I heard speak in Toronto a couple of weeks ago … was totally floored that Arafat didn't accept a state in 2000 …
Arafat couldn't since he doesn't want 1/2 a loaf … he believed he'd get it all very soon … AND if he accepted 1/2 a loaf … he'd be killed by other Pals or Hamas or some other Jihadi … he knew the score … better to instigate Intifada II which HE DID …
Israel doesn't need anymore land than what they're on presently … Israel must and will remain Jewish and democratic … they can't absorb any more Arab/Muslims … that's the deal so get Greater Israel out of your head … 70% of Israelis CONSISTENTLY POLL that they would accept 2 States for 2 Peoples … CONSISTENTLY FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS!
Absolutely. Hamas was actually created by Israel to stall the peace process with the PLO. Here are the facts:
"Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation
Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
"New York Times Reporter David Shipler cites the Israeli military governor of Gaza as boasting that Israel expressly financed the fundamentalists against the PLO:
"Politically speaking, Islamic fundamentalists were sometimes regarded as useful to Israel, because they had conflicts with the secular supporters of the PLO. Violence between the two groups erupted occasionally on West Bank university campuses. Israeli military governor of the Gaza Strip, Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, once told me how he had financed the Islamic movement as a counterweight to the PLO and the Communists. 'The Israeli Government gave me a budget and the military government gives to the mosques,' he said."
As Dreyfuss notes, "during the 1980s, the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza and the West Bank did not support resistance to the Israeli occupation. Most of its energy went to fighting the PLO, especially its more left-wing factions, on university campuses."
After the Palestinian uprising of 1987, the PLO accused Hamas and Yassin of acting "with the direct support of reactionary Arab regimes… in collusion with the Israeli occupation."
Yasser Arafat complained to an Italian newspaper: "Hamas is a creation of Israel, which at the time of Prime Minister Shamir, gave them money and more than 700 institutions, among them schools, universities and mosques." Arafat also maintained that Israeli prime minister Rabin admitted to him in the presence of Hosni Mubarak that Israel had supported Hamas.
Essentially, as analyst Ray Hannania pointed out, in "Sharon's Terror Child", published in Counterpunch, "undermining the peace process has always been the real target of Hamas and has played into the political ambitions of Likud. Every time Israeli and Palestinian negotiators appeared ready to take a major step forward achieving peace, an act of Hamas terrorism has scuttled the peace process and pushed the two sides apart."
In "Hamas and the Transformation of Political Islam in Palestine", for Current History, Sara Roy wrote:
"Some analysts maintain that while Hamas leaders are being targeted, Israel is simultaneously pursuing its old strategy of promoting Hamas over the secular nationalist factions as a way of ensuring the ultimate demise of the [Palestinian Authority], and as an effort to extinguish Palestinian nationalism once and for all."
The Muslim Brotherhood, and its many manifestations like Al Qaeda and bin Laden, serve as an ever-present and manufactured "terrorist" threat, used constantly as a pretext to justify repressive measures at home and expanded imperialistic objectives abroad.
Because, despite all the rhetoric about the threat of "political Islam", unbeknownst to the general public, the manipulation of the Muslim Brotherhood throughout the world is still a mainstay of American foreign policy."
Whenever moderate Palestinians seem to be making any progress, Israel gets the extremists (both Jewish and Muslim) into action to confuse world opinion. The timing of the assignation in Gaza was planned months in advance to stall the proceedings in the UN. It did not work.
You say:
'You must be kidding when you say that Palestinians do not want to accept 1967 border!...'
Let me remind you of the Palestinian National Charter states:
"Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit."
"Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty...and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine."
"Article 21: The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine...".
PLO's 10 Point Plan from 1974, states:
"8. Once it is established, the Palestinian national authority will strive to achieve a union of the confrontation countries, with the aim of COMPLETEING THE LIBERATION OF ALL OF THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORY..."
So who is BS-ing here, 'stands for lies'?
How did the Palestinians got the U.N. vote ? Here is how.
(Stages to eliminate Israel)
1) Since Jews right to their land is clearly mentioned in Sura (5:21 & 5:27) in Quran. Muslims get around them, by label Israelis "Zionists", to depict & render Jews as colonialists with no history.
2) Deny the Holocaust.
3) Question & deny the Jewish history in the region.
1) Perpetuate the notion, Islam is the "true" religion – while Judea and Christianity are "fake" . Declare their prophets as Muslims, who preached Islam.
2) Muslim clerics & scholars", declare "there is no evidence, Jews ever lived in Jerusalem.
3) define the site of Jews 2nd temple as "Islam's 3rd holy site.
4) Cite Islam's prophet had "ascended to heaven" from Temple mount, as way to legitimize Islam's occupation of Jerusalem – notwithstanding, he never set foot there.
1) Emphasis only the European Jews - never mention the 1.2M Jewish refugees, whom Muslims drove out of their own homes. (1948-1960)
2) Intentionally lie, by drawing parallel between Israel, and South Africa's past "Apartheid" system.
3) Perpetuate lies that, Zionism is a system of Apartheid, and not connected to Judaism.
4) Follow the late Nazi, Joseph Goebbels's gospel. "A lie, if repeated loud, and often enough, soon people will believe it as the absolute truth.
1) Invent non-existing Israeli occupation (Gaza & Lebanon), to manufacture "resistance".
2) Keep low intensity provocations (rockets from Gaza), to break down Israelis resolve.
3) "If it bleeds – it leads". Show the gory pictures of dead children to TV viewers world wide, to generate sympathy for them.
4) Teach their innocent children, hate & fanaticism. Promote the glory of death over life, and martyrdom through suicide bombing.
5) Repeat pictures of "ugly Israeli solder, shooting innocent civilians" intended to render Israel as "racist", "brutal", and "ugly" element living among the "peaceful" Arabs.
1) Use power of words. When speaking for the Palestinians, they use keywords like, "Justice", "fairness", "Indigenous people" - (notwithstanding Arafat was, born in, and citizen of Egypt). Or, "Occupied", "victims", "Resistance", "legal owners", "Right of Return" & "Islamic land" (Waqf).- all intended to conjure up positive imagery of the Pals in people's minds, as the real victims.
2) Referring to Israel, they use words like "Stolen land", "Occupier", "discriminations", "Apartheid", "massacre", "criminal", "war Crimes", and even "Genocide" is brought up.
3) Deliberately and intentionally, keep their people in refugees camps, throughout the Arab & Islamic states since 1948 to play on peoples emotions and sympathy – keep Hamas's flame of anti-semitic alive.
4) "The good Guy / Bad Guy" scenario. PLO in WB, depicts the image of law abiding group. The "civilized" & "peace loving" Palestinians. Hamas in Gaza, plays the opposite role. To force the Israelis for more and more concession, until nothing is left for them to concede.
5) Used homicide bombing & rockets onto Israel, to create psychological fear among the Israelis, with hope they will flee. ("Jews love life, we love death").
6) Through deceit & Lies, render Israel as the source of the problem. Its elimination as the only solution to all the unrest throughout the Islamic countries.
7) In English, they talk of two-state solution. In Arabic however, they cite passages of war from the Quran, and subjugation of Jews, as their ultimate objective.
1) Dupe the international community (U.N) to believe their cause for independence – not eliminate Israel. Done.
2) The actual "Palestine" (1920):
a. Jordan: 89,342 sq. km (76.8%)
b. Israel: 20,770 Sq. km (17.8%)
c. Palestine (2012): 6,220 sq. km (5.3%)
In their narratives, Palestinians deliberately omit Jordan, as part of the same land, to distort Israel's share from 18% to 78% of the land.
3) While they tell the UNGA that, "State of Palestine" is only WB, Gaza & E. Jerusalem – in their own Staged Plan (1974) they mean realization of Palestine of 1920.
4) Actively Promote the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) of Israeli interest around the world.
This is just a Jewish brainwash history book, read some real facts. Palestrina had 85% of the Israeli territory to after the WW II. What the Jewish do not understand is that they are carving their own grave, in 50 years the Palestinians will be more in population than the Jewish and in 100 years the Palestinians will be 15 million, it is impossible to oppress a whole folk for ever.
It has to be a 2 states solution. It is not so difficult to find it out. The big question is how and what happen with all the Jewish settlements that are illegal ( well 100% are illegal), so it is not so difficult
I'm not Palestinian or Jewish, I'm a european idealist.
YES … let's leave the fate of Israel up to European idealists …
Like that worked before … LOL
You say:
'This is just a Jewish brainwash history book, read some real facts.'
So facts it is you're after, Hmmm. OK, here are some facts for you: Look at this map of Palestine land ownership distribution in 1945.
You say:
'Palestrina had 85% of the Israeli territory to after the WW II.'
As you can see from the map - this claim is untrue.
Loom at the Beersheba district, which covers the entire Negev desert, in itself an area covering about 50% of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. As you can see, 85% (!) was public land. This area in its majority was allocated to the Jewish State under the 1947 Partition Plan, constituting over 60% of the land designated for the Jewish State.
This means that the Negev Desert allocated to the Jewish State WASN'T THE PATESTINIANS TO LOSE! – IT WASN'T THEIRS !!
Now move on to the Tulkarm district, where 78 % o the land was owned by Arabs. This district was also included the Jewish town of Hadera. Under the Partition Plan, the Tulkrm district was also partitioned, having Hadera fall under the Jewish State while Tulkarm itselk fell under the Arab State.
Same goes for the Jaffa district. Most land was owned by Jews. While Tel-Aviv came under the Jewish state, Jaffa came under the Arab one.
Had the Palestinians claim in1947 was that the Jewish State shouldn't stretch over 54% of the land, but rather 45%, or 34%, or 20% - that would have been an argument that could have been negotiated.
The Palestinian position then, and still today, is different. What the Palestinians say is that the Jewish people do not deserve a s tate, even it was to stretch over 1(!)% of the land. As far as the Palestinians are concerned, the Jewish deserve nothing! – zilch! – Nada!!
In fact, the Palestinian National Charter still in effect, DENIES THE RIGHT FO JEWISH PEOPLE FOR SELF DETERMINATION! – For the Palestinians, the Jews can't define themselves as a people!! See Article 20 in that Charter:
Ths is the ONLY reason why the Israeli-Arab conflict boke out in the first place; This is the ONLY reason why it persists to this very day.
So tell me, 'Idealism for human rights'. Who's doing the brainwashing here?
You say:
'The big question is how and what happen with all the Jewish settlements that are illegal..'
Israel disengagement from Gaza in 2005 demonstrates that not only the Jewish settlements aren't the 'big question' as you call it; those settlements are a none issue at all!
If the Jewish settlements were the big problem, then after Israel pulled out from Gaza, including ALL settlements evacuation, then the Gaza Israel border should have been the calmest, isn't it?
Instead, what happened the Jewish settlements' evacuation and Israel's disengagement escalated the Palestinian existential aggression against Israel.
The Jewish settlemenmts are not a problem, big or small. The Jewish settlements serve only as an easy-to-sell excuse for the continuation of existential aggression against Israel.
According to the map you yourself supplied.
Not one of the districts has Jewish ownership over 35 percent while many Palestinian districts have 50 percent or more Palestinian ownership.
My question is how does this post, which clearly shows a majority land owner stake of Palestinians in Palestine, support your overall argument?
My dear honorablesamuraii - this map confirms that Jews owned land.
Therefore, there is no basis to the denial IN PRINCIPAL of the Jewish people right to establish their independent state, even if it is stretched over a small part of the land.
The Palestinians refuse to accept a Jewish state – even if it takes 1% of the land!
There is NO justification for such a Palestinian approach. The Palestinians demand 100% of the land, even though they never owned more than 50% of it !
I have never said there is a justification for the 100% claim and have never disagreed with the existence of Jewish homeland (although choosing to locate in a country surrounded by hostiles solely based on historical nostalgia is to me a poor decision, even today the majority of Jews happily live outside of Israel in countries very friendly to Jews.)
...but tallying up land owned by Palestinians and Jews from the very map you supplied shows Palestinians clearly owning outright around 78 percent of all the land. These aren't my figures, these are the figures calculated from the area measurements, district by district, from the map you presented.
What is striking too is that the amount of land in Jerusalem -from this map- is particularly densely Palestinian owned, leading to the conclusion that if we are to use this map as a basis for division of land then that city at the very least should be solely governed by Palestinians.
I only posted my original comment because I thought it odd that you supplied this particular map, which conflicts quite starkly to your assertions.
You say:
'I have never said there is a justification for the 100% claim and have never disagreed with the existence of Jewish homeland'
Nice. But the Palestinians do demand 100% of the land. THAT'S the problem!
Your territorial calculation is wrong. Palestinians owned far less that 50% of the land, taking the Beersheba district, where 85% of the land was public. This district in itself covers about half the entire land between the Sea and the River.
The heavily populated areas (Nablus, Jenin... were allocated to the Arab state in the Partition Plan. Other districts were split, whereby the heavily Arab residential areas fell under the Arab states, while the Jewish areas fell under the Jewish areas (as I demonstrated to you with the Jaffa and Tulkarm districts.
No my land calculation is still accurate as I did not include the Beersheba district as it was mostly public land at that time (we're not arguing about public land are we?) As far as I know the land ownership there is not being contested by Palestinians, with the only conflicts being those regarding old Beduin land claims.
...but since you bring it up. I should point out that it is the least densely populated land in Israel and as such you would think would be ideal for new settlements. Why settle on contested land? Too bad it is some of the most arid and inhospitable land in Israel, maybe that's why the settlers shun it in favor of occupied territory.
Instead it looks like an ideal place to send the least politically connected Jews seeking sanctuary to. Wonder why they planted the Ethiopian Jews there?
Essentially it is a struggle to eek a living out of land on that district, with perhaps the exception of the northern most regions of the Beersheba, which is why nobody is contesting it and it was not considered in my calculation.
(bit of an aside here, I have some friends who toured around the Nagev and their pictures are fabulous. Some damn beautiful scenery. I'd like to go there myself someday.)
You wrote: "This is just a Jewish brainwash history book, read some real facts. Palestrina had 85% of the Israeli territory to after the WW II."
Why don't go over the list and rebuttal my post, point-by-point.
Are you denying these facts?.
"Palestine" region (1920) had comprised these area:
a. Jordan: 89,342 sq. km (76.8%)
b. Israel: 20,770 Sq. km (17.8%)
c. Palestine, State (2012): 6,220 sq. km (5.3%)
A group which calls itself "Palestinians", only since 1967. It can not claim to be the same "Palestinians" of 1920 - if there were people by this identity.
As you alluded "This is just an Arab brainwash history book"
I lived in the Negev Desert for a year … it was definitely do-able …
There were some new kibutzim … closer to Eilat as well …
The Negev is the NEW SOURCE of untold OIL & GAS wealth … it will be the focus of much development in the coming years/decades … as much OIL & GAS as Saudi Arabia proven reserves!
I'm glad it's doable. I favour whole hardily the development and settlement of the largest administrative district in Israel - much better than settling on land that is in dispute.
You say:
'No my land calculation is still accurate as I did not include the Beersheba district as it was mostly public land at that time'.
How can you remove a district which covers 50%(!) of the entire land?!? - This is precisely my point, honorablesamurai. Even when it comes to the Negev desert, the Palestinians demand it to be theirs, and reject a Jewish state in the Negev too!
You say:
'I should point out that it is the least densely populated land in Israel and as such you would think would be ideal for new settlements.'
Being a desert, not really. Regardless, Israel did establish towns and agricultural settlements in that area too, however being a desert it has its limitations.
You go on:
'Instead it looks like an ideal place to send the least politically connected Jews seeking sanctuary to. Wonder why they planted the Ethiopian Jews there?'
In fact, Israel's founder, David Ben-Gurion, made his home in the Negev. Growing numbers of young Israelis now make their way to the desert those days.
"Historic Palestine"??
What does that even mean? When in history has a "Palestine" ever existed to warrant use of this term?
The only thing even remotely resembling a historic "Palestine" is the British Mandate of Palestine, and artificial entity created after WWI to serve as homeland for the Jewish people.
Its taken 65 years for the Arab/Muslim world to recognize the 1947 vote at the UN.
How many wars , how many dead and injured , how many destroyed lives could have been saved if they had then ,as they have done now .
In 1948 there were a over a million Jews in the Arab/Muslim lands of North Africa and the Middle East , whilst today there are only a few thousand .These Jews were expelled/forced to flee due to a wave of Antisemitism that swept the Arab/Muslim lands before and after 1948 .
Most of these Jews fled to the only country that would take them in , in their penniless and destitute state. These Jews lost thei property , possessions and thousands of years of community and culture when they fled.
During and after the 1948 war a significant portion of the Arabs/Muslims of parts of Mandatory Palestine were expelled/fled to
other parts.
There were 2 sets of refugees , and until this issue is sorted there will be no proggress towards an agreement
The first thing that needs to go is the RACIST UNWRA , which has to much of a vested interest in the status quo and the continuation of the conflict .
I call it racist as it is specifically geared towards only one group of refugees 'THE HEREDITARY PALESTINIAN REFUGEES' to the exclusion of all others . UNWRA has also confered on the Palestinians rights which are not extended to any other group.
Hey if you think 1948 was a bad year for the Jews how about 337 when Constantine converted to Christianity. There were an equal # of Christians and Jews then and no Muslims. It got worse in 610 when Muhammed founded Islam.
Now there are 15 million Jews, 2.3 billion Christians and 1.6 billion Muslims.
So tell me why was 1948 a bad year for Jews?
Didn't the 2000 YEAR 'wandering in the desert' come to an end?
Didn't the world recognize that sovereignty was the only way forward for the Jewish People?
Seems you think differently?
Re. Christianity … Is that the religion that thinks a Jew was God? Is that the religion that Jesus ONLY preached to the Jewish People for redemption of the Jewish People? Is that the religion where all the apostles were JEWS?
Re. Islam … Is that the religion that names all the prophets of God were JEWS and named in the JEWISH BIBLE? Is that the religion that had its adherents face Jerusalem for prayer BEFORE switching to Mecca? Is that the religion that didn't write the Koran until 200 YEARS AFTER THE DEATH OF MOHAMMAD? Isn't that like the children's game of 'broken telephone'? He said what? He did what?
Look all religions are myth! … Christianity and Islam are Supersessionist religions … couldn't allow 'other myths' to prevail … therefore they did their utmost to destroy them … hence only 13.5 MILLION Jews on Planet Earth … from whence the other 2 Myths sprung! Don't get me started …
Your post is 95% incoherent (like all of your other posts) but I can say that for the 700,000 ME Jews that were kicked out of Arab countries, 1948 was a very bad year.
You also missed one. Judaism is myth just like a all monotheism's.
The only god is Spinoza's Pantheism.
You also missed one … no I didn't ALL RELIGIONS ARE MYTH! Like I said!
Frankly … the Jews who escaped the Arab/Muslim countries are THANKFUL today … they make up over 50% of the population of the Jewish State … thanks to the Arab/Muslims!!!!
As for Spinoza … philosophy is/was NOT my field. Although I respect his genius.
What is your field ?
I'm a brain surgeon … what's your field?
I am a person with little tolerance for bullshit.
Then how can you stand yourself?
Judaism itself is descended of older religions - some polytheistic. Please refrain from religious debate here, this is not the forum for it.
It was Rumba that mentioned the 'religion' issue … on this thread … I just followed his lead!
There is NO MONOTHEISTIC religion PRIOR to Judaism … but I digress
That is not correct. Monotheism existed in Egypt during the New Kingdom, the cult of the sun god Ra became increasingly important until it evolved into the uncompromising monotheism of Pharaoh Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV, 1364-1347 B.C.)
What is with the capital letters all the time ?
Actually, it was the god Aten that Akhenaten worshiped, and which some see as a precursor of YHWH. Funny folk, these Egyptians.
You got that right … but these Egyptians weren't those Egyptians Froy.
How many years did the monotheistic pharaoh last … 17 YEARS! Ok
I loved reading about the Egyptians in Grade 5 … As Dylan said: "I was so much older then … I'm younger than that now"
But the Morsi Egyptians … are a 'piece of work' … the M B is a bad organization … they'll lead Egypt to bankruptcy … remember Morsi needs loans totaling $10 BILLION (something the M B would not have accepted previously but I guess they're in dire straits) … without the $$$ there will be chaos and a further devolution of the governance in Egypt … I don't know which way it will go? … towards a Syrian-style Civil War … towards a totalitarian-style Islamist state … or … some hybrid … the jury is out … I don't have a clue which way Egypt will go … but for sure … NO ONE does!
This is exactly what's wrong with Israel's approach - it rewards Hamas. Time to reconsider settlements, and give something to Fatah to reward its peaceful approach.
I've been waiting for Israel to reward Fatah in West Bank since the split in 2006. Israel has rewarded cooperation and less violence with stealing more land. By treating both factions as equal, Israel is sending the message that no matter the policy, Palestinians are treated as Palestinians.
As you said, Israel is REWARDING Hamas and sidelining Fatah, encouraging conflict and discouraging cooperation. Is this a result of idiocy or strategic calculation? Both?
When will someone (preferably an Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood leader willing to stick his neck out) recognize the need for a "Gazan relief Plan" that addresses the lack of jobs ,food, space and WATER in Gaza, and tap Israeli technology to build desalination and purification plants to open up the Negev, Sinai and Jordan to aquaculture, agriculture and food processing and export. This would add thousands of hectares of land for settlement and development.
Congratulations Palestine on your elevation from "entity" to "state".
Really, really great news. Well done
You say:
'Congratulations Palestine on your elevation from "entity" to "state"...Really, really great news. Well done'
65 years ago, the same UN general Assembly had adopted resolution 181, also known as the Partition Plan. That resolution legitimized the establishment of two states between the Med, Sea and the Jordan River - One Jewish, One Arab.
Had the Palestinians did what the Jews did, and adopted that resolution, then just like Israel celebrated earlier this year 64 years of independence plus having a 64 years of full UN membership, so could the Palestinian if only they adopted in 1947 resolution 181.
So let me get it sraight, FTIG: 64 years after could have had full independence and full UN membership, you now congratulate them for having no state and merely an observer state status?!
I must tell you, I never took you as a person who dislikes the Palestinians that much..
The people who refused resolution 181 are long dead, this is a different generation, don't judge them by mistakes they were not party too.
No people on Earth has ever willingly accepted the colonization of their homeland by foreigners. Palestinians were no different. The recommendation in UNGAR 181 was blatantly and knowingly against the most basic tenets of International Law and Human Rights.
Thank you for confirming, FROY, that the Palestinians' struggle against Israel is existential in nature, not political.
It is not that they just want their own state, period. Their end game is having Palestine established over the ruins of Israel, not side-by-side it.
This is SOLE reason why Palestine was not established in May 15th, 1948, the same day Israel was established.
This is the SOLE reason why for as long as the Palestinian maintain this course, the 'State of Palestine' will remain a paper state.
You say:
'The people who refused resolution 181 are long dead, this is a different generation, don't judge them by mistakes they were not party too.'
I will play along, honorablesamurai.
In that case, let's have PLO and Hamas leadership take responsibility for that mistake, say that they are sorry the mistake was made, and recognize, as resolution 181 does, the right of teh Jewish people for a nation state of their own in Judea (also known as 'Palestine').
If they do that, I am a solution can be reached in no time.
The problem is, that the PLO refuses the Jewish people their national right. In fact, the PLO refuse the Jewish people the very basic rights all nations have - the right for self-determination.
As for Hamas - they officially want all Jews dead (!)
Hard to reach a compromise in this situation, won't you agree?
Don't obfuscate the facts, S.F. That was a cheap shot. It is undeniable that the UNGAR 181 recommendation was knowingly unjust and could only sow conflict, but conflicts evolve and the positions of the parties evolve with them, too. The PLO recognized Israel and accepted the creation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 lines decades ago, abandoning any claim to Israel's sovereign territory. If somebody is threatening the other state's existence it is not Palestine, but Israel with its continuous expansion on Palestinian land. Israel is the existential threat to Palestine, and not the other way around.
I agree completely. Compromise is difficult when you have
both sides of the conflict laying claim to the same land. One won't recognize the other's right to exist and the other by occupation does the same.
I also agree that Hamas's charter is a ridiculous declaration to destroy Israel.
It is also undeniable that the creation of Hamas is a consequence of a generation of stalled negotiations. Why go to war if you are prospering and happy?
Before the recent violence Hamas had shown signs of moving away from this charter, even going so far to say they wouldn't back an Iranian-Israeli conflict, which I consider a very important positive ideological shift. Politics often moves radical parties from the fringe to the center and Hamas will continue moving away from the radical if they continue to have the support of the people. The people will support Hamas as long as their living situation improves. Only the Israeli's can improve the lot of the Palestinians, so ultimately they hold the cards here.
They better play those cards well and soon because as the recent UN observer state vote shows, only 5 states actively opposed the motion. The world is watching and supports the existence of two states, regardless of radical Palestinian ideology.
One sad thing that has been proved in this recent conflict is that the Palestinians are willing to sacrifice a lot more lives to keep the world's attention on this issue - it's their only card.
It's time for the Israeli government to think carefully about what they in turn are willing to sacrifice to achieve lasting peace for their country.
You said: "The PLO recognized Israel and accepted the creation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 lines decades ago …"
The PLO/Fatah or Hamas in their acceptance of a state along 1967 lines et al …
BUT ONLY AS A START … the PLO and HAMAS both want to continue the war against the Jewish state FROM CLOSER QUARTERS … that's their dream!
Why start the history lesson from 1973 FROY " "with its continuous expansion on Palestinian land"?
In 1948, the Arab/Muslims had an opportunity to divide the land as per the UN Partition Plan?
In 1937, the Arab/Muslims had an opportunity to divide the land as per the Peel Commission?
The Arab/Muslim state would have been MUCH LARGER then but ANY JEWISH SOVEREIGNTY was TOO MUCH for the 'gang that couldn't shoot straight' … LOL
The Arab/Muslims 'think' they can still get it all in 2012? Is that some kind of joke? It will continue to be 'their GREATEST nightmare!' Inshallah
You say:
'both sides of the conflict laying claim to the same land. One won't recognize the other's right to exist and the other by occupation does the same.'
Incorrect. From the onset of the conflict (Peel Plan, 1937), the Jews had accepted the principal of partition. The Palestinians rejected it.
You say:
'I also agree that Hamas's charter is a ridiculous declaration to destroy Israel.
Hamas Covenant is GENOCIDAL! - How can one be ridiculed by a cal for genocide?
ou say:
'It is also undeniable that the creation of Hamas is a consequence of a generation of stalled negotiations.'
Incorrect. Hamas was established in 1988. In 1988, the 'legitimate representative of the Palestinian people', the PLO, was still calling for the destruction of Israel, so there were no negotiations at that time.
It is only in 1993 that Arafat sent a letter to Rabin, committing to end terror, recognize Israel, etc. As we know today, Arafat cheated Rabin.
Hamas seeks Israel's destruction. So does Abbas.
Please refrain from bringing up the decisions of people long dead. They only have a vague historical interest as the people alive today weren't making those decisions. We live in the now. The best way to address the stupid decisions of the past is to ensure they don't happen again.
As for this statement:
'It is also undeniable that the creation of Hamas is a consequence of a generation of stalled negotiations.'
Incorrect. Hamas was established in 1988. In 1988, the 'legitimate representative of the Palestinian people', the PLO, was still calling for the destruction of Israel, so there were no negotiations at that time.
It is you who are incorrect. My original post is still accurate.
Yes, Hamas was established in 1988. Why? A generation living under occupation was having to endure harsh living standards, in 1988 having lived under occupation since 1967, and were getting nowhere. We now have had THREE generations since 1967 and nothing has been achieve aside from more settlements.
You completely ignored what I mentioned in my previous post about radical parties moving to the center. Hamas would likely give up this ridiculous charter if a two state solution was reached, as the people would start to prosper. Remember, the world has shown that it prefers a two state solution regardless of radical Palestinian ideology.
The current Israeli policy of, "let us have an extended peace, while we build more settlements, you change your charter, and then we'll talk of a two state solution" is a complete failure. How many more Israeli and Palestinian lives will be lost because of it?
You said: "Hamas would likely give up this ridiculous charter if a two state solution was reached, as the people would start to prosper. Remember, the world has shown that it prefers a two state solution regardless of radical Palestinian ideology."
'likely give up' … 'the world prefers' … these are EMPTY WORDS
Jihadis don't care what the world prefers … and they are NOT LIKELY TO GIVE UP their agenda …
So adjust your thinking … the Arab/Muslim Middle East is not a Western rational educated zone … (only the Israelis are such an outpost of the West but certainly not the Arab/Muslims!) …
Jihadis are driven by the 'knowledge' that they are right and will prevail if they keep on going … Political Islam which is espoused by Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood … will only take a 'time out' … a 'hudna' in their parlance … just like Muhammad did in the Koran … before making the next attack … this is their 'road map' … the Koran. Hello? We've been living with the knowledge of Political Islam for decades already … it won't be finished for many more decades … Al Queda is not finished … it's not even underground … it's wherever Muslims live … 2 arrested in Florida today … and yesterday somewhere else … it's really a Police matter for most of the world … but for Israel its an existential matter … if you get that … you get where the Israelis are coming from … they 'know' their enemy … over 50% of Israelis were part of the Arab/Muslim Middle East for centuries … they 'know' Muslims!
These are not empty words. They are backed by votes in the UN. What I would ask myself if I was in the Israeli foreign ministry, is not "Why did this country or that country vote in favor of Palestine in the recent vote but why did all these Western countries (supposedly allies) abstain? No man is an island and no nation is either.
I sincerely doubt too, that all or even a majority of Palestinians are jihadis.
If all Arabs are, as you claim, irrational and unwilling to give up a radical agenda then why would you want to live in a country with them as neighbours? That is irrational of itself.
No, they are not irrational. A prosperous independent Palestine is the only thing that will stop the violence and radicalism. We have to learn from the past and do things differently.
A "hudna"? What is happening during this hudna? Another 3000 settlements being built? Sounds like peace to me.
You say:
'Please refrain from bringing up the decisions of people long dead... the people alive today weren't making those decisions. We live in the now.'
Aha. Does this mean Russia has today to return Konigsberg, now called Kaliningrad, to Germany, after losing it due to their aggression, only because Germans living today didn't take the decision to invade the Soviet Union?
Does this mean Poland now has to return to Germany the districts east to the Oder River, and let millions of German expelled from those districts get back?
No, honorablesamurai. Nations do bear responsibility for their past decisions, also if those were taken by people who are dead for a lonf time.
You say:
'Yes, Hamas was established in 1988. Why? A generation living under occupation was having to endure harsh living standards, in 1988 having lived under occupation since 1967, and were getting nowhere.'
Ah, so the 1967 occupation is the problem, right? - So may ask you, sir: Why PRIOR to the 1967 war none of the Arab states had recognized the right of Israel to exist? - Why was the PLO the Palestine Liberation Organization, established in 1964? - What was there to liberate in 1964, if the occupation started only in 1967? - Why PRIOR to the 1967 war didn't the 'Palestinians' establish Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza, with east Jerusalem as its capital, when Israel had NOTHING to do with those territories?
The Arab aggression against Israel has nothing to do with the 1967 'occupation', which serves as yet another easy-to-sell excuse for their continuation of existential aggression against Israel. The problem Hamas has with Israelis isn't what the do, but rather that they breathe. The Palestinians are still occupied because the three generation born into occupation still desire Israel's destruction.
Israel's choice isn't whether to occupy or not to occupy the Palestinians. The choice is – occupy, or get occupied!
What would you do in such a choice?
End Palestinian existential aggression - then peace will come.
You say:
'It is undeniable that the UNGAR 181 recommendation was knowingly unjust...'
Wow !! - Says who ?!?
You say:
'The PLO recognized Israel and accepted the creation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 lines decades ago, abandoning any claim to Israel's sovereign territory.'
Sep. 9th, 1993, was the first time the PLO recognized Israel. In his letter to Rabin, Arafat included the following:
"The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security...The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338... The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations... the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators.'
No mention to the 1967 borders, and commitment to peaceful negotiations. If only the PLO had met those commitments..
Arafat continues and states: PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.'
Needless to say, the Palestinian National Charter was never amended. It still calls for the destruction of Israel.
yes, FROY, the Palestinians aggression against Israel is still existential.
We can all agree that the solution to the Arab/Israeli Conflict is a 2 State Solution … 2 States for 2 Peoples …
But the UN will not grant Palestine its sovereignty … the Palestinians will have to deal DIRECTLY with the Israelis … so I know that … Britain knows that … Germany knows that … Holland knows that … et al
I'm a Canadian … I live in Canada … I did live in Israel for a couple of years … but that's my business …
As for the Palestinians being irrational … jihadis … I would refer you to the surrounding states … NONE of them is flourishing … (not even Turkey … which is not Arab) … they are all finding it difficult coping with the 21st C … mainly due to:
50% of the POPULATION is under the age of 24 without jobs/hope
50% of the POPULATION Illiterate without job skills
50% of the POPULATION Discriminated including women and minorities (Christians, Kurds, et al)
This will continue to keep these nations from moving forward … ONLY … secular education + enfranchising women … can lead the way forward
As for the hudna … 2 can play at that game … the Hamas thugs prepare for the next attack … the Israelis build up their country … the 1967 lines ARE NOT the border … see UN242 … although if you look at the Separation Wall … the border will resemble that line … Read the Clinton Parameters … the outline of a deal was ALREADY established in 2000 …
There have been 12 YEARS of despair for nothing! Intifada II, Hezbollah War 2006, Gaza War 2008/09 and 2012 … lots of wasted blood and treasure …
What I can say is … Israel has 'learned' from each war with the Arab/Muslims … enhancing their skills … building Iron Dome and David's Sling et al … but the Arab/Muslims seem to go back to ZERO … as if it was 'Groundhog Day' the movie … starting in the same position (or a worse position) and beginning resistance afresh! Is that called 'cunning' or stupidity?
Neither of these European territories you mention are filled with angry, warring inhabitants urging political change so they matter naught to this debate.
I will say again, arguing about the past will not solve today's problems - not at all.
I mention the 1967 occupation as it is relevant because the living conditions of a generation of Palestinians led to the formation of Hamas and have not mentioned it as an excuse nor even as a historical fact, as the occupation is not an excuse it is a reality. The current generation has never experienced any other occupation other than Israel's so who do you think they identify with as occupiers? People from 50 years ago?
Occupy or get occupied? Brilliant! Sounds like the perfect living conditions for Israeli's. It's been so successful in developing friendships around the world. Let us deal with the harsh attitudes of our neighbours by occupation and repression of a people. Good ole military blockade and occupation, the solution to changing the minds of youth in the Internet Age.
I deplore Hamas shooting rockets into Israel, just as I deplore military hardware flying the other way.
The Israeli's I know are not at all satisfied with the current situation. The status quo continues and actually gets worse. The solution is not to wait for Hamas to drop their charter it is to move beyond it and allow statehood. After all Israel has the military might to intervene if the aggression escalates after Palestinian statehood, right? Of course they do. The only thing at risk is... additional settlements and this is the whole problem, isn't it?
The current Israeli strategy is expansion. If not than why continue adding new settlements? It certainly doesn't encourage peace. If you were to answer me one thing this would be it please.
You say:
'Neither of these European territories you mention are filled with angry, warring inhabitants urging political change...'
Of course no Germans in Kaliningrad express anger, because there are none! - Those who were not killed in WWII, were immediately expelled by the Russians!!
Same goes for the millions of Germans expelled from their homes in what is today Poland into what was left of Germany proper.
Are you suggesting that Israel should solve the anger of the Palestinians by expelling them all from the West Bank too, so that there would be no anger there as well? – Hmmm…
Forgetting about the past is indeed something the Palestinians would love. This way they could avoid assuming responsibility for their situation. It is history that proves the Palestinians have no one to blame but themselves.
You say:
'I mention the 1967 occupation as it is relevant because the living conditions of a generation of Palestinians led to the formation of Hamas.'
Can't do the tiome, don't do the crime.
You say:
'Occupy or get occupied? Brilliant! Sounds like the perfect living conditions for Israeli's. It's been so successful in developing friendships around the world. Let us deal with the harsh attitudes of our neighbors by occupation and repression of a people...'.
Was it wrong then to occupy Germany and Japan after WWII?
You say:
'I deplore Hamas shooting rockets into Israel, just as I deplore military hardware flying the other way.'
That is precisely the problem with the position you express. You create moral equivalence between Palestinian terrorists who make innocent civilians their primary target for attacks, and Israel's response that specifically target those terrorists to who indiscriminately attacks innocent civilians.
You say:
'The Israeli's I know are not at all satisfied with the current situation.'
Of course Israelis are unsatisfied. Would you be satisfied living under a constant threat of random rocket fire, and fear every time your kids go out to play in the neighborhood playground, or when they board the school bus?
You say:
'The solution is not to wait for Hamas to drop their charter it is to move beyond it and allow statehood.'
In other words, you ask Israel to help Hamas kill Israelis. That makes sense!
You say:
'After all Israel has the military might to intervene if the aggression escalates after Palestinian statehood, right?'
If Israel leaves the West Bank, the day after what happened in Gaza after Israel pulled out from there will happen - rain of rockets covering also Israel's central part.
----You say:
'Neither of these European territories you mention are filled with angry, warring inhabitants urging political change...'
Of course no Germans in Kaliningrad express anger, because there are none! - Those who were not killed in WWII, were immediately expelled by the Russians!!
Same goes for the millions of Germans expelled from their homes in what is today Poland into what was left of Germany proper.
Are you suggesting that Israel should solve the anger of the Palestinians by expelling them all from the West Bank too, so that there would be no anger there as well? – Hmmm…-----
No, you've just made this suggestion. And maybe by mentioning it you've just answered my unanswered question about new settlements being solely an ethnic cleansing expansionist policy of Israel.
----'I mention the 1967 occupation as it is relevant because the living conditions of a generation of Palestinians led to the formation of Hamas.'
Can't do the tiome, don't do the crime.----
So what are you saying that an unborn Palestinian should be punished for an accident of birth? Wow! Now that is harsh. Let us punish those yet born for their ethnicity, what does that sound like to you?
----You say:
'I deplore Hamas shooting rockets into Israel, just as I deplore military hardware flying the other way.'
That is precisely the problem with the position you express. You create moral equivalence between Palestinian terrorists who make innocent civilians their primary target for attacks, and Israel's response that specifically target those terrorists to who indiscriminately attacks innocent civilians.----
No, I deplore war and violence. I'm also aware that there is a people who have no state and have been living under occupation for decades. Do you believe that Hamas considers itself a terrorist organization? They don't. To resolve conflicts you must put yourself in the shoes of both sides in order to understand their reasoning. I can understand why the Israeli's respond in the way they do, but can you understand why the Palestinians do what they do? If your country was occupied you'd behave the same way or risk being called a sympathizer.
----You say:
'The Israeli's I know are not at all satisfied with the current situation.'
Of course Israelis are unsatisfied. Would you be satisfied living under a constant threat of random rocket fire, and fear every time your kids go out to play in the neighborhood playground, or when they board the school bus?----
Of course I wouldn't be satisfied, but I'd also be aware that if the current policies aren't working they have to be scraped and replaced with a policy which provides lasting peace to the satisfaction of both sides.
----You say:
'The solution is not to wait for Hamas to drop their charter it is to move beyond it and allow statehood.'
In other words, you ask Israel to help Hamas kill Israelis. That makes sense!
You say:
'After all Israel has the military might to intervene if the aggression escalates after Palestinian statehood, right?'
If Israel leaves the West Bank, the day after what happened in Gaza after Israel pulled out from there will happen - rain of rockets covering also Israel's central part.----
I don't see how this helps Hamas kill Israelis any better than the existing situation, already the longest range rockets can hit most parts of Israel but this statement ignores the proof of recent events; the Iron Dome was displayed to be very effective, and Israel has been shown to possess a vast military capacity to smash the long range rockets before they can launch. How can there possibly be a rain of rockets? Don't you have faith in the Israeli military?
Can you please answer me the question I asked previously? If Israel wants long term lasting peace, why do they persist with an expansionary policy of new settlements on occupied territory, which is completely contrary and ass backward to peace and upsets the world, including their allies in the West?
"'It is undeniable that the UNGAR 181 recommendation was knowingly unjust...'
Wow !! - Says who ?!?"
This is from Lord Balfour himself:
"The contradiction between the letters of the Covenant [League of Nations Covenant LB] and the Policy of the Allies is even more flagrant in the case of the 'independent nation' of Palestine than in that of the 'independent nation' of Syria. For in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country, though the American Commission has been going through the form of asking what they are.
The Four Great Powers are committed to Zionism. And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land.
In my opinion that is right. What I have never been able to understand is how it can be harmonized with the declaration [Anglo-French of November 1918], the Covenant or the instructions to the Commission of Enquiry.
I do not think that Zionism will hurt the Arabs, but they will never say they want it. Whatever be the future of Palestine it is not now an 'independent nation,' nor is it yet on the way to become one. Whatever deference should be paid to the views of those living there, the Powers in their selection of a mandatory do not propose, as I understand the matter, to consult them. In short, so far as Palestine is concerned, the Powers have made no declaration of policy which, at least in the letter, they have not always intended to violate…"
Memorandum addressed to Lord Curzon by Lord Balfour on 11 August 1919
They knew they were ignoring the wishes of the native population of Palestine, yet they still went on implementing a terribly unjust decision on them. Sheer prevarication.
Another one from Lord Balfour, the gift that never stops giving:
"The weak point of our position of course is that in the case of Palestine we deliberately and rightly decline to accept the principle of self-determination. If the present inhabitants were consulted they would unquestionably give an anti-Jewish verdict. Our justification for our policy is that we regard Palestine as being absolutely exceptional; that we consider the question of the Jews outside Palestine as one of world importance and that we conceive the Jews to have an historic claim to a home in their ancient land; provided that home can be given them without either dispossessing or oppressing the present inhabitants…"
Letter to the Prime Minister by Lord Arthur Balfour dated 19th February 1919 LB
Isn't that "knowingly" enough?
Balfour was a prescient GIANT … "Our justification for our policy is that we regard Palestine as being absolutely exceptional"
The fact he recognized the exceptionality of the Jewish People and their tie to the HOLY LAND … is what I got out of this …
The idea that "we conceive the Jews to have an historic claim to a home in their ancient land" is as true today as it was then.
The fact is Froy … the story of the Jewish People's attachment to the Land of Israel is 'easy' to discern … OPEN A BIBLE … you know the one that CHRISTIAN'S READ EVERY SUNDAY … or open a KORAN … both of them acknowledge the home of the Jewish People is the Land of Israel.
That's not to 'diss' the Palestinians … it just means they'll have to 'move over' and make a space for the Jewish People's return … frankly … there are plenty of Arab/Muslim states ALREADY … compensation will be paid BUT THEN AGAIN so will compensation be paid to the Jewish Refugees from Arab/Muslim states who had to flee in the years after 1948 …
It was a 'Gypsy Curse' … that has come back to 'bite' the Arab/Muslims in the ass … be careful what you wish for FROY … that's the lesson … don't be greedy … that's the lesson … the Jews only want what's already determined through the negotiations called the Clinton Parameters … GET TO THE TABLE
You want it all? You're just perpetuating the Gypsy Curse!
You say:
'So what are you saying that an unborn Palestinian should be punished for an accident of birth? Wow! Now that is harsh. Let us punish those yet born for their ethnicity, what does that sound like to you?'
No. What I am saying is that if they are unhappy, they should address the people they call 'President' Abbas and 'Prime Minister' Haniye, and demand from them to better their lives.
Strange people those Palestinians are. They have problems, and they blame a foreign government for it..
Adding to what tzatz had said - The Jewish case in indeed exceptional. There is no other case like the one of this old nation, most of which forcefully expelled from its homeland, who for 2,000 years wondered in countries in which they were aliens, and thought al that time remained committed to return home.
Balfour speaks about the 700,000 Arabs inhabiting the land, a land that today is a home to 12,000,000(!) people. Only a small part of the lad was actually owned by those 700,000 Arabs.
The returning Jewish people, didn't seek to disposes the Arabs living there. All the Jews wanted was, while exercising their right of return, was at the same time to accept the reality on the ground where other people lived, and split the land between the two communities.
Those 700,000 Arabs owned a small part of the land when Balfour made those statements. It was NEVER all theirs. How could it be? - A land that is home to 12,000,000 today?
If there would have been a slightly open mind to learn about this old nation, and understand its attachment to that land, peace could have been achieved, for the benefit of all the residents of the land.
Lord Balfour, apart from a notorious anti-semite, was the typical colonial-minded supremacist hypocrite of his time. More than "prescient" he was still quite anchored in the 19th century when the belief that British culture was superior to any other, and that this granted them the right to decide for other peoples and dispose of their land as they deemed best, was prevalent. Old-fashioned bastard, to put it bluntly (hope the moderators don't mind).
But he did acknowledge that the native inhabitants of Palestine had a right to self-determination in their homeland. He just considered it "good" to deny them such inalienable right because it didn't suit his anti-semitic agenda, which sought to rid Europe of "undesirable" Jews. Justifying such injustice on religious myths and on supposed "exceptional" (chosen?) character of the Jewish people might have made some sense at the time, but today we can see clearly how bogus the whole argument was, and have no remedy but to accept that it was completely unreasonable. You can't just tell somebody to "move over" from his home to "make space" for some outsider, no matter how "exceptional" she is.
They have been demanding better lives, in the form of an independent state.
----The returning Jewish people, didn't seek to disposes the Arabs living there. All the Jews wanted was, while exercising their right of return, was at the same time to accept the reality on the ground where other people lived, and split the land between the two communities.----
Building settlements on occupied land doesn't seem like "splitting the land" to me. It is more of a colonizing action.
It has been agreed that the Palestinian missile strikes are contrary to peace. No missiles are firing today. OK, a good step.
So what are the Israeli's doing to nourish the peace process? Building new settlements in East Jeruselem, which from the map you showed me from 1947, this was nearly 84 percent Palestinian.
I am going to repeat this question in the hope that you will answer it in a way that "Palestinians' "useful idiots" will understand.
"If Israel wants long term lasting peace, why do they persist with an expansionary policy of new settlements on occupied territory, which is completely contrary and ass backward to peace and upsets the world, including their allies in the West?"
It has been shown to me here already, helpfully by tzatz, he positively changed my mind on the matter, that there is perfectly suitable - uncontested- land in Beersheba, why not settle there instead?
The current announcement is not peaceful - it is the action of an agent provocateur.
"The Jewish case in indeed exceptional. There is no other case like the one of this old nation, most of which forcefully expelled from its homeland, who for 2,000 years wondered in countries in which they were aliens, and thought al that time remained committed to return home."
You surely haven't heard of the Gypsies (Roma people). Yet I don't hear anybody calling to carve a chunk of India to "make space" for the "return" of this wandering, dispossessed and marginalized minority. I wonder how would the Indians take it.
It is ironic that, by "returning home", Jews have made Palestinians into another forcefully expelled, wandering people, committed to return home. I guess Palestinians are the "exceptional" ones now.
"Those 700,000 Arabs owned a small part of the land when Balfour made those statements. It was NEVER all theirs. How could it be? - A land that is home to 12,000,000 today?"
Land ownership doesn't mean a thing. You can't just kick somebody out of his homeland just because he doesn't own his house. That's another bogus hasbara argument. There were 700,000 native Arab inhabitants in Palestine, and those, and only those, were the ones entitled to exercise self-determination on it. Hadn't the European Jewish invaders expelled 80% of them, today there would also be 12 million in the land. Only most of them would be Arab.
"All the Jews wanted was, while exercising their right of return, was at the same time to accept the reality on the ground where other people lived, and split the land between the two communities."
Well, of course they wanted that. Getting half of what you don't have is better than nothing, right? But losing half of what you already have is entirely another matter. Considering European Jews had no right whatsoever to "return" to a land they had never set foot on before, it isn't hard to understand the Arabs' opposition. Reminds me of the story about King Solomon and the baby. The fake mother would gladly "split him" with the real one, too. One can't blame the real mother for refusing such repulsive proposition, though.
You REFUSE to accept the UN Partition Plan … that was the answer of the world body … in November 1947 … 2 States for 2 Peoples
The fact YOU can't accept it means YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM not part of the answer! If you can't accept what the UN proposed …
and 65 Years later … still insist upon "refusing such repulsive proposition" … then there CANNOT be a peaceful solution to the Arab/Israeli Conflict …
I would tend to agree with you FROY … so I'll play that game … I believe there must be a radical shift in thinking! A total POPULATION TRANSFER … all Arab/Muslims OUT of Israel or what will become the final borders of Israel … and Palestine on the other side of a fixed border …
Certainly … there would not be any further so-called 'colonization' and no further need of 'resistance' since both sides would be separated … of course compensation and an END OF CONFLICT SETTLEMENT would have to be signed … but at least the Arab/Israeli Conflict would be over …
No, Tzatz, the problem are supremacists like you that dream of ethnic cleansing. Racists that consider themselves superior to others and with a right to oppress and dispossess the "inferior ones".
There will never be "population transfer", Tzatz, sorry to disappoint you. Stalin died some time ago, and the practice has fallen out of flavor ever since. Palestinians will remain in their ancestral land on both sides of the Green Line no matter what, and Israeli Jews will have to accept it, just like Arabs will have to accept that Israeli Jews are there to stay. Not because they have some "historical" right, but simply because they are born in that land, pretty much like the descendants of European colonialists in South Africa, Australia or your own Canada. But that does not mean that their arrival and the establishment of Israel was a rightful action. It was a terrible wrong, and it will have to be acknowledged as such at some point in History, just like Americans acknowledge the terrible wrongs inflicted on their natives, just like Afrikaners engaged in "Truth and Reconciliation" commissions, and just like Australians recently apologized to their aborigines.
I don't know if that coexistence will happen in one or two separate states (the latter looking less and less likely), but what is sure is that both peoples will have to coexist, since both of them are adamant on staying. Supremacists like you dreaming of ethnic cleansing are in for a bitter disappointment.
You said: "… just like Americans acknowledge the terrible wrongs inflicted on their natives …"
Did I miss that part of history? When did this happen? Is there a 'be nice to natives day' that I don't celebrate? Let me know.
Let me remind you … FROY the RACIST … it was YOU that said:
"Considering … Jews had no right whatsoever to "return" to a land they had never set foot on before … One can't blame the … (Arabs) for refusing such (a) repulsive proposition"
Let me repeat it again: This is Israel's unsolvable problem: Israel Population 7,933,200
Arabian countries 372,370,000
So it's not about Filistan … it's about the Arab/Israeli Conflict
They'll continue to gang up on Israel until they win … is that your point?
That doesn't seem to have had any impact on Israel's total military domination in the last 64 years, and I see no reason for that to change in the next 64 years either.
Both Israelis and Arabs need to come to terms with the fact that neither of them is going anywhere. They're stuck with each other. Hamas and Hezbollah's rocket attacks are strategic pinpricks, yet at the same time Israel's formidable military can't actually make any of it's enemies go away. So what kinds of lives to they want to build together?
Agreed, but in the end the numbers will decide the outcome in that conflict. As long as Israel's formost ally America is capable of protecting them nothing will change. Alas that won't happen forever, as that country's steady decline shows. What a shame, left in peace the Israelis wouldn't hurt anyone, so why are they insisting on continuously expanding (new settlements)? This is like a red rag to all Arabs. Its nuclear arsenal won't help either for proximity reasons.
Re: Settlements, is it to bolster their numbers? That would definitely be a waste of good will and time.
Your fears of America's demise are premature! America is the MOST dynamic country on Planet Earth.
As for Israel … "left in peace the Israelis wouldn't hurt anyone" is certainly true.
You asked: "… so why are they insisting on continuously expanding …"
With the intransigence of the Arab/Muslim World … and the antagonism of the political agenda of the Arab/Muslims … after 1973 … Israel needed to 'look after themselves' …
Unified Jerusalem and communities close to the Green Line (the Major Jewish Settlements) … will remain in Israeli hands after any Peace settlement … see the Clinton Parameters
The Jewish State needs to remain … liberal democratic and overwhelmingly Jewish … they will not be annexing any more territory … the Arab/Muslims need to accept a sovereign militarily strong Jewish State … on that day … there will be peace … NOT BEFORE!
To begin with, I am not worried about America's demise as a super power and more to the point it won't happen to-morrow, but some time sooner, than later. As to "The Jewish State needs to remain"......, tell that to the Arabs.
Regarding the present peace conditions, they will be irrelevant when that happens. The worst scenario imaginable will be that Israel is forced to defend itself to the last Israeli and that means using nuclear weapons even if spells their death warrant. Overly pessimistic, maybe, but to expect a peaceful co-existence with the Palestinians (Arabs) and the Israelis, is to say the least pure wishful thinking.
That's your take … so the Israelis should emigrate en mass from this area? That's your solution to the Arab/Israeli Conflict?
There are 7 MILLION ISRAELIS … they have 200+ Nuclear Weapons … they have submarines with nuclear weapons and cruise missiles able to deliver them … I CAN SLEEP WELL … KNOWING IT IS NOT THE ISRAELIS THAT WILL BE NEEDING TO VACATE THE JEWISH STATE … Never Again!
The Arab/Muslims will have to accept a sovereign Jewish State in the Middle East … if they don't they will continue to bear the brunt of the IDF … that's been made pretty clear in the last 64 YEARS. Don't expect that to change anytime soon.
Your scenario … a diminished America sometime in the future … abandoning Israel to the 'wolves' … it could happen but by that time Israel will be EVEN STRONGER than they are today … perhaps with a different backer … Russia? China? India? All of these states have substantial Muslim minorities and could use Israel's expertise and weaponry AND they can identify with 'Israel's problem' … ONLY TIME WILL TELL …
If your militaristic, antagonistic and violent ravings are representative of current Israeli reasoning then it is no wonder there no peace in the region. Israel would make friends and influence people better by building bridges, not bombing them.
So you say … but that's not an option when dealing with Arab/Muslims … they take EVERY 'kindness' as WEAKNESS and push for more and more! It's called the 'strong horse principal'
Read: Lee Smith:The Strong Horse: Power, Politics, and the Clash of Arab Civilizations
What kindnesses are you referring to?
Allowing Palestinians to work in Israel … treating their sick in Israeli hospitals … providing Palestinians with university education … there are HUNDREDS OF EXAMPLES …
all this brought was 'pain and suffering' including Intifada II … when over 1000 ISRAELIS WERE BLOWN UP ON THEIR BUSES … DISCOS … PIZZA PARLORS … RESTAURANTS … et al
The Israelis have 'learned' the hard way … 'once bitten twice shy'
A more suitable solution would be for Palestinians to have an independent country in which they could build better hospitals and educational facilities and attract outside investment to provide jobs. Right now they have difficulty raising any capital to do this efficiently. Even with capital it is hard to import all the appropriate materials.
Taking someone's kitchen away and then giving them a few meals to eat now and again is not kindness.
Dreaming won't help you, neither Russia, China nor India will help because economically Israel is a nonentity, the Arabs are not.
I know the brutal reality hurts, but whatever happens the numbers won't change. You are definitely right with ONLY TIME WILL TELL and I hope to be wrong.
Israel has much more to offer than the Arab/Muslims …
Israel will be a net energy supplier in the coming decades … China & India need energy
Israel will continue to be a source of startups that will be the leading edge technologies these countries will require …
Israel will continue to be THE source for ultra hi-tech weaponry … which India and China and Russia could use or partner with
Arab/Muslim oil will have peaked and besides many importing states will now be either self-sufficient or exporters themselves … think about the USA and fracking oil & gas … EU the same … Ukraine the same …
'The Times They Are A Changin' …
"Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'"
Here's the audio of what I heard … in fact the speaker tells why Israel became 'hated' after 1973 … since before 1973 they were admired AROUND THE GLOBE …
Why 1973 … it was due to the Israeli victory in the Yom Kippur War … (the one Sadat said he won) … and the use of OIL as a weapon AGAINST the West and any countries that didn't toe the 'Arab' line!!! Can't remember 1973? That's because MOST people on this blog WEREN'T EVEN BORN YET …
Another article by the Economist that says and goes nowhere.
"Likud ... has yet to revise its charter claiming all of historic Palestine"
Curious that the Economist chose to make no mention of Hamas's charter. Perhaps the following phrases would merit consideration if a balanced view is The Economist's goal:
Article 13: "[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement"
Article 28: " Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. "Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.""
Article 31: "The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. For if they were to gain the upper hand, fighting, torture and uprooting would follow"
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