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Where Wireframes Are Concerned
While there remain certain specific contexts where it is advisable to craft and present wireframe layouts for client evaluation and approval, this practice is often a really bad move and one made at the wrong moment in the design process, and for the wrong reasons. Wireframes can be useful, valuable artifacts for informing the designer's process. But they often fail miserably as a first-step deliverable for clients.
The practice of compulsory client presentation of wireframes for all projects is not uncommon in the Web design profession. But rather than being based on sound, contextual reasoning, it is more often a thoughtless, vestigial process remnant or the result of careless misinterpretation of someone else's contextually-specific best practice. Put another way, many designers generate and present wireframes to clients not because they know it's a good idea in a specific case, but because they've seen or heard of others doing so and they therefore think they're supposed to as well. As always these sorts of assumptions are problematic. An action or choice without context is a step toward failure.
In this article I'll examine design and project management issues that surround wireframes, and how some specific contexts impact choices for producing and/or presenting wireframes to clients as project deliverables.
To wireframe or not to wireframe
Whether they're hastily-scribbled pencil sketches on notebook paper, detailed ink drawings on graph paper, rudimentary gray box layouts made in a graphics tool, or highly detailed monochrome comps with real text content and accurately rendered interface and form elements, virtually every project involves wireframes of some sort. They provide guidance for the rest of the design process …for the designer. They can, however, be problematic or useless for the client and in some cases they're simply a waste of time.
The value of this nice design (above) would not likely be well served by a wireframe presented to the client.
But not always. As mentioned before, there are certain contexts and cases where crafting wireframes for client evaluation and approval is a good idea or an advisable requirement. For instance:
- forms
- (some) Web app layouts
- news sites
- or in those lamentable situations where you're asked to design without the client having provided you with the content (where wireframes are used to help them visualize how content volumes impact the layout. A poor process!)
These are good contexts for client-presented wireframes. All but the last example are likely well-suited to client wireframe approval because of what generally allows these types of pages to be successfully designed: the lack of visual noise and obtrusive, non-content graphic elements. For those contexts, the plain, monochrome wireframe presents a fairly clear indication of an ultimate result. In these cases, most of what can be conveyed by a wireframe can remain unaffected by the full articulation of the design (though "Web app" is an admittedly generalized example here).
Even in these contexts, however, the design process can get derailed by the client's feedback and requests when made without the context provided by an already understood and approved full design direction. Wireframes are a sometimes useful "guess" that can help get design underway. But if your client doesn't share your appreciation for and understanding of the purpose of wireframes, things can go awry. Sometimes it is best that the fully realized design for one or more promotional/information pages be agreed upon before wireframes for some other specific layouts are generated so that the comparatively inarticulate wireframes can be viewed and evaluated in the right context.
Some problems with wireframes
Wireframes bring with them a host of potential communicative problems that must be understood by both the designer and the client where wireframes are used. Taking into account that part of your job as the designer is to win and maintain your clients' trust, you don't want to introduce artifacts or documents that might work to erode that trust. Design-communicative problems erode trust.
Wireframes as the design blueprint
Some may regard wireframes as entirely innocuous; as merely the blueprints for the page layouts. This analogy does not hold. The blueprints or the floor plan for a house are made in the context of the fully realized design and the client views these with the benefit of having seen detailed elevation drawings or paintings. When the project is fully realized as the house is built, the blueprints and floor plan encounter no modifying influence or pressure to change. They're set, solid. Their plan will likely hold through the entire process.
The floor plan above has the context of a design result as rendered in the elevation painting. Thus the client can form opinions based on a full, clear picture.
Wireframes, however, cannot easily accommodate and convey vitally important components of the design. Gray boxes and non-contextual dummy content cannot describe:
- how contrast impacts content hierarchy
- the impact of brand-specific design features
- the impact of graphic and textural elements
- the eye/energy paths created or interrupted by color and contrast of graphic elements
- et cetera
As a result, what seems logical and sound in a wireframe may be trite and malformed when the actual design and content are applied. Gray boxes and generic filler copy may fit together very nicely for an initial plan, but relationships can often change as the graphic and textural layers and actual content are added. Revision becomes likely.
The impact of informational and promotional content
The further the page purpose moves away from sanitary news or purely functional requirements the less effective and articulate wirefames become. Counter to the previously cited example, there are common cases where what will be a compelling, effective design fully realized may seem dull and dubious as described by an inarticulate wireframe. As such, it may work to erode client confidence.
For example, this wireframe (above) is not very exciting and in no way conveys the impact and effectiveness of the fully-articulated design that will follow. A client presented with this wireframe as an example of the plan for the main page of their company's website may question the abilities and creativity of their designer. It is likely that the client would be compelled to begin asking for additions to help this page "pop," and the designer would find himself in the ridiculous situation of having the client demand to help design the wireframe. And everyone loses. However…
…the design as fully articulated (above) is a different matter entirely. Nice typography, crisp imagery, and consistent theme work to bring this layout together as a compelling design. Very little of what makes this design work could be communicated by a mere wireframe. And if the required detail was articulated by a wireframe, it means that effort was wasted and should have been directed toward crafting the full design for presentation to the client. Again, context matters.
As an anecdote from the above-referenced project, the original plan was to have the branding/nav and promotional areas as centered, distinct "boxes" on the page. In the fully articulated design it became clear that it was much better to have the upper area of the layout be a full-screen–width section rather than discrete, horizontally-limited boxes. This is just one example of how things change when the full design is applied to a wireframe plan.
Wireframes for informational and promotional pages quickly begin to lose their articulate nature, especially where brand-centric issues come into play—and especially when the actual content is not present. It's highly probable that only the fully-realized design can convey the successful or unsuccessful quality of a page when there is an informational or promotional purpose to the content. This issue is sometimes mitigated when you've got the full and exact page content, but why would you then create a wireframe? Communicating promotional information in the context of a brand requires more than gray boxes.
Faulty reasoning and greed
An idea like, "Wireframes will present enough specificity to allow developers to start crafting the functionality, as well as enough context to let the creative team (designers) start to working on visuals," ignores the fact that information hierarchy is design and is not merely a matter of top-to-bottom or left-to-right order, and that the addition of graphic, typographic, and textural elements can change content relationships, requiring layout changes. Furthermore, if the wireframes are crafted by an information architect (IA) rather than by the designer, design decisions will have been made that may prove faulty later in the design process due to a lack of the IA's design insight (or foresight). If your client has already signed-off on the wireframes, you could find yourself in a pickle.
So getting a client's approval of a specific layout and content relationship with the inarticulate boxes appropriate for a wireframe presupposes that the content and the graphic, contrast, and color textures as applied to the content won't necessitate changing things in order to create a good page viewing/using experience. This is naive at best and irresponsible at worst.
Another instance where wireframes are often inappropriately included in deliverables is when agency bloat and greediness are brought to bear. The common logic is that where a bloated agency charges four times as much as smaller agencies, they're compelled to offer many times the volume of deliverables in an attempt to represent value. The problem here is clear.
Disappointingly, this approach also typically involves the failed practice of including a scattershot approach to design, where many design options are offered as a matter of course. I've discussed that issue already on my blog, but the lesson here is that where you find the one bad behavior, you're likely to find another other. And another.
Speaking here to companies looking to enlist a Web agency, if your prospective agency describes wireframes as a part of the project deliverables when they don't yet have a full appreciation of your project, it means they're working from a script rather than thinking about you. It means you're talking to the wrong agency.
In conclusion
Before you create a detailed wireframe for any project, ask yourself: "How will this help my design process?" Evaluate your answer carefully before you decide whether or not to craft a wireframe. Actually, I think we're all in the habit of doing this and most of us intuitively understand how some sort of wireframe will help our process.
Likewise, however, before you create a wireframe for client evaluation and approval, ask yourself: how will this help my client in the project process? Again, evaluate your answer carefully before you decide to craft a wireframe for your client's evaluation…and before you commit to do so as a part of the project deliverables. Context matters.
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This Information is very concerned with the facts i was searching over a long time. Thanks for something this informative regarding the wireframes.
Hmmm...I think most of you have failed to understand the history of User Experience as a profession. I remember coming out of an HCI program in Psychology and then going to ITP in NYU in the early 90's. At that time the graphic based internet was quite new and we had to convince the need for user based design.
At that time, we usually prototyped our ideas in Macromedia Director and then later we used Flash. The wireframes were usually hand sketches with post it notes and transparent sheets layered on them. The whole point was to use these tools for creative idea formation.
But then another kind of person came into the picture, the library scientist. The idea behind this is that as websites got complicated, someone was needed to organize the information, separate from the visual designer. The web was still looked at as a database of information, like a giant library. This is why wireframes and sitemaps became important deliverables.
But as some sites became more visual and interaction based, the traditional UX person became relevant again. But now so many agencies and clients are even more confused as to what the function of the UX/IA/XD is and may even expect wireframes when they are completely unnecessary to the project.
There is a lot of work out there that is merely the shuffling of papers, but with the right kind of communication skills can look like something impressive is going on. I have been avoiding these kinds of projects at all costs, as I feel that honestly creating great interfaces that feel natural to use is what brings me and my clients a true sense of fulfillment.
Wireframes can be said to be a "thinking device" to help you set and explore a given problem! So to know the uses of wireframes, it is important to understand the nature of designing! Wireframes can be useful tool for informing the designer's process but not as a first step to be presented to clients! Your design has to be well laid out and explained to the customer before you make use of the wireframe or it will prove to be too complicated for the client!
Interactive Agency
I'm always struck by how proponents who defend the use of wireframes miss the underlying point on the process of design, one that Andy stated quite clearly:
"[Wireframes] provide guidance for the rest of the design process …for the designer."
Wireframes are a design tool for designers to express design thinking. Wireframes are NOT a design deliverable in and of themselves. Wireframes are not design artifacts that can be made to use throughout the design process without ever bothering with how the real product will ultimately look. Wireframes are a means to more fully rendered end, a way to think out loud, and a way to work a problem. Wireframes are a tool, not an artifact. That's the point.
But as a design deliverable, wireframes often get designers into hot water for the very reasons Andy stated in this article.
Seriously, designers in the digital realm need to go into any other design profession and you'll see wireframes are always supported by a fully rendered example. Clothing, architecture, industrial design, graphic design. Why is this concept so hard for people to grasp? Other design industries would be shocked to see digital designers only bother with wireframes.
A lot of people who defend wireframes as some sort of design artifact in and of itself need to re-read this article and step back a moment and understand what is being said here. Andy Rutledge is spot on.
Stop creating wireframes absent of fully rendered versions. Making design decisions using only wireframes is a crippled way to design anything, and further, you'll make poor decisions over the entirety of the project starting that way without at least one or two fully rendered expressions of the wireframe, even at the very early stages of the design process.
I enjoyed your article and find a lot of your points to be very intriguing.
However, your example using the blueprint analogy is a little off the mark. Although it's true that elevations and and architecture will affect the "floor plan", that's usually the first thing a client wants to see, i.e., room dimensions, placement, bathrooms, lights switches, drains, doors, windows, etc. Once those details are nailed down those criteria are extended into elevations, structure, ceiling height, roof lines and landscaping. The last thing to to tackle is the interior design, fixtures and final landscaping.
So in actuality, the floor plan does come first (e.g., wire frames). It is flexible initially but becomes less so as additional details are added, just like in Web site design.
Thank, I enjoyed your article.
I respectfully disagree.
Wireframes define the direction of the layout and keep the client focused on the organization of content at the early stage of a stage of a project.
Wireframes distill the design into its basic components.
If you show a client the full color option (i.e. unit interactive image above), complete with details and an image, you will here things like: "why is this so green?", "why is there a ladybug in that picture, people don't like bugs", "that text in all caps looks like you are yelling" and "what else do have for me to see?".
Prep the client, manage expectations, show them simple at first. This will allow your final presentation to have the dynamic effect you want to achieve. It lets them better appreciate your knowledge regarding the organization of information that has been optimized for the users flow.
Basically, if you skip straight to the comp, then you will be doing more design re-work.
I think it is a mistake to try and shortcut the process.
The success of a wireframe will depend upon how good the UX designer and the ability of the project manager or leader to explain to the client the final meaning of the wireframes and they purpose in the different stages of the design.
I found the wireframing process vital for a design process because allow to maintain a clean communication process not only with the client but also with developers and so on.
We cannot pretend from the customer to be knowledgeable in what a wireframing process is. The success of the wireframe stage will depend in how we keep the customer/client informed and educated about concepts, processes and graphics and our ability to present them in a language clear for him.
Wireframes are only as good as the person who creates them. The only reason why the wireframes fail to convey the design is the inarticulate way they are designed. In my experience, a wireframe should accompany supporting documents such as a content matrix that detail more specs. As they say, garbage in, garbage out.
Very well said. You are describing a very clear value that should be present in the documents. The translation of client objectives into something that the client is a part of because the documents help to translate their interests.
Maybe one of the reasons that so many wireframe-type deliverables have gone south with clients and production teams, is that there was poor stakeholder input process. Garbage in gargage out.
[ This applies to the "Quality Deliverables" part of my last comment. ]
I use wireframes to land projects. The reason I land them is because I listen to the client, and ask the right questions. Wireframes are a way to sketch insights and information learned from the client, and show them that we are listening. It's important to explain that these are sketches, and that final designs will look different as we evolve our understanding.
Honestly. I can't wait for the day when "because it will be misunderstood" ceases to be a factor in the argument of mock-up fidelity or anything else.
Since clients are capable of misunderstanding anything and everything about any kind of development deliverable whatsoever -- I've seen it all -- we could apply the "because it will be misunderstood" argument to everything, and simply advocate for a deliverable free process.
Quality deliverables, client education, the right people presenting; problem solved.
In my experience wireframes has helped me in the design process. It's all about communicating with your clients. They may not understand the term "wireframe" which is why I present it to them as a mock up. This term is easier to understand and I directly tell them not to focus on the colors, lack of graphics, etc. but how their contents will be placed and the pros and cons with each mock up. Once they select a layout that they are comfortable with then I go into the details of adding colors and graphics.
Wireframes are not a waste of time, for me at least, because without wireframes you're basically working blind. It gives you a sense of direction. Without a wireframe I'll just be coding elements that doesn't fit and end up wasting time because of a lack of a solid foundation.
I agree with most of the what the folks are saying here. My largest issue is that the UI example wireframe discussed above is not a "wireframe." That is a designed web page in its early stages. All things equal, if a wireframe at all approaches any of the aesthetic qualities of an actual visual design comp, it has the potential to be misunderstood and interpreted poorly.
In my opinion? Make it ugly. Make it look like a presentation of content, interaction patterns, and hierarchy. Don't try to make it pretty. You will have the client focusing on the wrong aspects of the artifact.
Yes. The whole premise of the article is off. All of the cautionary tales here have nothing to do with the question of the value of wireframe/UX mock-ups; they all actually relate to client education and perception management. In other words good process and a competent team with well experience UX members (whatever their exact job title happens to be).
In the the negative cases, either the deliverables themselves were garbage, or the deliverables were fine but the people presenting were not competent and client process/education/perception-management.
Sometimes you have good deliverables but you have an account rep or a creative director who have minimal or non-existent knowledge of how to present the documentation, or did not do the work so they cannot speak to the clients concerns. Sometimes the deliverables are crap because they are old-school IA docs that are not created by UX designers who know how to indicate optimal UI design patterns and cognitive ergonomics within the documents.
True, there was an example pointed out that may not benefit much from wireframes -- and while I did not look it over in enough detail to know whether that is true -- it is true that there are what I call "High Concept" site that really emphasize non-standard innovative approaches to the interface experience. These are typically artist sites, or singely products sites where you have to come up with some way to spend 200k or more talking about a tennis shoe. For these sites, wireframe and other interface UX docs may be more of an internal process for understanding basic content requirements, and need never be shown to the client, as the client really wants to see creative concepts, and not your typical practical interface that needs to be designed in order to help someone get something done. In the high concept site, high fideltiy designs are the prototype because they truly are the product. But these sites are the exception and not the rule. In most interfaces the majority of design effort is really in the interaction design of the UI components and visual architecture of the communication layer; aesthetic design has a smaller percentage of impact. It is an important impact from the branding/tone/atmosphere standpoint, but look-and-feel it is still a small percentage with regard to all of the other design disciplines which are embodied in a well designed interface.
I believe the comments sum up my feelings nicely, and I always appreciate when unnecessary process that inhibits innovation is questioned. It really does boil down to the client, project, timeline, and team structure.
However, I did want to dispute JaneM's comment:
"Most of the objections in your article can be done away with by simply explaining to the client what wireframes are and how they should be used."
I would hazard a guess that you are either still being a student with Utopian ideas, or at a company with an infinite supply of money and time and very few clients. That's not to say they aren't an important part of a long-term development lifecycle, and I've had my successes, but there is always a marketing executive or retail owner with a small project who only understands and expects visual design. We'll all eventually come across a more difficult client, and although inefficient, it may make sense to jump a step ahead in your typical lifecycle in order to please them.
I know I'm not the only one:
Actually, I've had more than 10 years of experience working both agency and client-side. Trust me, I have worked with my share of clients from hell.
Making wireframes into successful communication tools is all about how you work with clients and how you present the wireframes. There are some excellent comments above explaining successful techniques.
It takes years of experience to get really good at this, but I don't think skipping the wireframing stage and going straight to comps solves any of the problems presented above.
Hi Kevin,
I didn't mean to give the impression that we worked with web designers for 6 years. Actually we just worked with one 6 years ago and then did nothing until we hired a new designer.
But I do agree with your point that it's all in the presentation to the client. I also work in a service business and have realized that clients' reactions are mostly dictated by my presentation. Meaning that if I seem doubtful or don't have a clear strategy in mind, they sense it and feel doubt too. But if I know what I'm doing, and communicate that, most clients let go and allow me to do my job.
Hmmm. On a personal project where I actually was the client who also makes wireframes - I can say that diving into fully comped up screens would have been madness in terms of time spent determining initial functionality and hierarchy of information displayed then making fast iterations.
Here is an example of a page where certainly many rounds of wireframe development helped define the ultimate display layer design:
I am with many in this thread that question Rutledge's (I highly respect him and his work) "how will this help my client in the project process?" question in which he seems to imply that wire frames should not be client facing documents, but appreciate his questioning of how and where they are best used.
- Andrew @andrewkorf
Hmmm... I am the client Matthew mentions above (followed his link here from Twitter) and from my perspective, the wireframes were invaluable, even though the design has taken a different shape.
It makes me wonder if the issue usually isn't wireframes themselves but a) why the designer is using them in the first place and b) how he/she communicates with the client.
When we hired a designer to work on our first website 6 years ago, there were no wireframes. We told the guys what we wanted, they made a few suggestions, then they came up with a design we liked and basically built what we asked for. As the years went by, we soon found a thousand flaws with the design - things we hadn't thought of back in those early stages.
But with Matthew's company, the experience was night and day. We told them what we wanted and they listened, but then they put us through a rigorous strategy and planning exercise. Once we had challenged all our preconceived notions, and developed a strategy, they presented wireframes as a way for us to see that strategy in action, so that we could identify issues with navigation, or see places where the strategy was getting lost.
But prior to viewing the wireframes, the guys made it very clear that what we were seeing was only the function and not the design. Far from making us lose faith, it strengthened our faith in the coming design, because we were able to fix flaws at the stage.
Now that we are in the design phase, Matthew has made changes to the original wireframe page layouts, but not to the navigation or information hierarchy. And we have never once had to ask them to go back and change functionality. What's more, I know that this time we have a site that has been thought through to the nth degree - I didn't have that feeling last time.
All this is why I say that I disagree with the idea that wireframes are not useful to the client. I just think it depends on how well the design firm uses them, and how well they educate their clients.
It sounds like you're an experienced client, so to say. You've been working with web designers for 6 years, so you might have a pretty good understanding of how the web design process works. You might be comfortable with having a wireframe given to you because of that experience, while another first-time client may be unintentionally mislead or come off with the wrong idea about how the design is progressing.
I do agree with your point that a client may hesitate when wireframes are presented because of *how* they are presented. If a designer is good at making the client feel comfortable knowing that the wireframes are just part of the process, presenting them can get invaluable feedback from the client. They know their own audience better than you ever will so I find it important to keep them in the loop.
Wow. What an issue. I found myself getting irritated at your article till I started reading the comments. Then I understood the issue again from your point of view. Wireframes have been a consistent pain in the ass in every project I've worked on. No client, even a well trained design team, can fluidly move from wireframe to design without either changing elements as you mention above in the Unit example or compromising the possibilities for design and sticking to the wireframe strictly.
I'm engaged in a project as we speak where the wireframes were an incredibly useful tool to help the client make some strong business decisions about hierarchy, user-flow, and other interactions to support their strategy. Then I began to design, and I began to see massive differences in the way that the wireframes were designed and how I wanted to present things as a design.
*One Solution* is to do full or nearly full designs right from the getgo on two or three main "template" pages. This of course is flawed because it is not cost-effective. Or appears not to be. I can imagine that a strong designer, if they utilize a tool like mood-boards, and if they are a good listener, could created a strong first set of pages, and potentially remain profitable. Potentially they could meet a massive sink-hole of time though.
*A Second Solution* might be to have greater interaction with the IA and the designer _before_ the client is ever shown the wireframes. The wireframes could potentially be a higher grade of grey-box wireframe, perhaps even with imagery to allow the collaborated product to have a stronger visual presence for the client.
*A Criticism of The Article* that I have is that I don't see a consistently applicable solution as much as a broad critique of mis-used IA. I'd like to hear (Andy) what you suggest web teams do in scenarios where the budget for IA/Copy/Design/Dev is 30-50k, or even less for a large portion of our industry.
*Some Praise for the Article* is that I find it refreshing to hear you talking about something that I'm experiencing at this very moment, and trying to find a solution to. I really appreciate your focused and well written opinion on the topic. :)
I agree with the article. Frankly even if the blueprint analogy worked, truth is clients struggle to understand those too. There is too much special markup in a blueprint for most people to understand once you get to something functional like stairs. Same thing happens when a wireframe tries to convey flyouts or other interactions. The client can never be educated enough, even in-house. The visual cannot be divorced from the functional for all the reasons stated above. Any translation that the client needs to do is a hindrance to clear communication, so ideally we should be presenting as realistically as possible...as stated above.
But I think this is all a tools issue. If we look at the most common tool in our industry, Visio, that thing doesn't even work in the same unit of measure that we need! Most other tools we use come from other industries and duct taped together. I say we do a symbolic burial of Visio at Interaction '10 so we can get that ugly episode behind us.
Wireframes don't communicate aesthetics. Photoshop comps don't communicate functionality and flows.
I think the issue is less about what you show, and how you manage what you are showing, and how you balance the two (as well as other key devices) throughout the process.
>> Before you create a detailed wireframe for any project, ask yourself: "How will this help my design process"
I am a UX designer and I use wireframes as an interaction design tool to establish what information and controls will appear on a page. Whenever possible I try to use final copy and sample data in the wireframe, so that it reflects a reasonable state of the application.
As an example: if I am designing an application that has a list of customers and the client has a requirements document that says that the software should allow the user to be able to filter that list. With that information in hand, I can create 2 or 3 different wireframes to show the different ways that filtering controls could be presented. The wireframes make it easy for my clients to see the differences in interaction design approaches. Since I can produce wireframes very quickly, it lets us explore many different ideas together at a relatively low cost.
Naturally, I always take the time to explain what a wireframe is and how I use it in the design process. Some clients can be put off by the lack of visual design in the wireframes. When I think that's likely to happen, I will take the time to render one of the wireframes as a completed design early in the process. This enables my clients to see how a wireframe for their product can be turned into a final design ... and it also kick starts the discussion on the visual design.
The example you show, with the Promotional Area is an example of what I try to avoid in a wireframe - by making it look too polished, you've made it look like a finished product. Wireframes should look sketchy. It will help clients take the visual design aspect of them less seriously. When you have a polished looking wireframe, then the client can't help but react to the visual design.
Whilst wireframes are indeed my preferred way of working especially during the early stages of design I agree that not all clients react to them well.
Even with explanation of the benefits many see it as a waste of time or are not creative enough to separate the concepts of design and structure. In my experience this can be on quite large projects and not just simple stuff.
When you present them their wireframes, you talk about them in the context of their business, and how the design decisions you've made will benefit their business. I've seen so many designers present their work and talk about the layout, what this or that button does, etc., they dive into the fine functional details, so if you start put talking about layout details, that is how the discussion will go. I've found what works is to set the stage by talking about their business needs, the user needs, and the ensuing strategy, then tell them how your design solves those problems...show a client how they will benefit, and the rest is usually easy....granted, this comes with some level of experience ;)
Interesting comments from everyone...thanks! I agree with different bits and parts of what the article and comments say, but since everyone commenting so far has taken one side of the argument, let me add some thoughts on the other side:
I've been in more than a few meetings following some client snafu where someone has said, "We need to do a better job of educating our clients before showing them deliverables." I agree that if clients and stakeholders could be brought to understand the purpose and meaning of wireframes better, their responses to them would be more constructive. But how realistic is it to expect to be able to educate them in this way?
You can't show them wireframes from other projects and expect them to understand how wireframes will work on their project. They won't be familiar with the other project, and will be comparing final wireframes against the final UI of the sample project without seeing how the wireframes went from draft to final, or how the UI went from the wireframes to the final product. Looking at samples doesn't confer an understanding of how to use wireframes as a design and cognitive tool. The sample wireframes will just look like artifacts of something unfamiliar. It isn't until you've really used wireframes as a tool, instead of simply viewed them, that you begin to understand their purpose, benefits, and limitations.
The only time the clients or stakeholders get a chance to actually use wireframes is during the course of their own projects, at which point it's too late to educate them. It's a Catch-22; you need to bring them through a process of wireframing before they can be understand wireframes, but you need them to understand wireframes before you dare bring them through a process of wireframing.
I find wireframes a great way to present to clients the features that we plan to implement based on user research. Clients are often not knowledgeable enough to discuss a certain feature using "designer's language". Instead, a simple but visual communication tool is exactly what you need to get your point across to the client. As long as you make clear to the client that these are rough sketches you're presenting to communicate an idea, you shouldn't encounter too much trouble.
I think the point is rather about doing the appropriate research before wireframing. If you start wireframing without an idea about the brand, what content is to be present in the design, who you're designing for, and so on, you shouldn't be wireframing at all. You won't have a clear enough idea about what content and features you should design for. If you're wireframing, you should also be able to present a wireframe that is reasonably close to the final design, taking information architecture and content into account.
A wireframe's purpose should never be to convey "the impact and effectiveness of the fully-articulated design that will follow", but rather how we plan to communicate through the website, what will be where, and how it should work to allow that communication to take place in an effective way. The graphical design should then work to refine that specification.
The purpose of a wireframe, goes way beyond articulating layout and information hierarchy. It's a crucial step in the interaction design process to manifest business requirements into a user experience that meets the needs of the business, and the needs of the user. It illustrates a content strategy, or a conversion process...shows how we will solve a business problem. I'd hardly call a wireframe a "guess".
The mistake is not managing and educating the client as to what they are, and why we do them. Or in some cases, the mistake is not finding out exactly why you are designing the website to begin with.
As was mentioned, it's only the most basic of brochureware sites that don't need it. I'd be hard pressed to think of a project that didn't require them in some form. Visual design is a further refinement of an interaction design, and yep, the layout will change, but it should change to the benefit of the interaction, and an IA should have input to those decisions...well really designers should have a clue about UCD, but that's a whole other topic...
Most of the objections in your article can be done away with by simply explaining to the client what wireframes are and how they should be used. Plus, if you're working with a good UX Designer who creates detailed wireframes, information hierarchy is as clear in wireframes as it is in comps. The UX Designer is responsible for defining and creating that hierarchy so the Visual Designer can concentrate on creating the visual design.
It's only the most basic brochureware that does not require a good deal of forethought and planning to get the functional elements right - which can also be accomplished in the wireframing process.
Sure, if you think your client is not capable of grasping the nature of wireframes, don't present them, but if you want to save your Visual Design team a lot of time and save your developers from a lot of guesswork, you should still create wireframes to be used internally.


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More than 100 million horses, donkeys, and mules around the world spend their days working for a living: not necessarily working on their sliding stops, tempi changes, or jumping technique, but working to provide their human families with a means of transportation and a source of livelihood. These equids represent not only the family horse but also an animal that is a major player in the global
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subset: commoncrawl


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Type and Figured Fossil Collection
Specimen Details
Glyphea georgiensis Taylor
BAS specimen number NHM specimen number Type Status Higher Taxonomy |
Chronostratigraphy Lithostratigraphy Locality |
- Taylor, B.J. (1979)
Macrurous Decapoda from the Lower Cretaceous of south-eastern Alexander Island
British Antarctic Survey Scientific Reports, No. 81, 39pp
p. 10
The data provided on this page is taken from the most recent publication citing this specimen. Taxonomic names and geological ages are largely subjective and may have been assigned differently in previous publications.


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"I recently found you through my smartphone and I'm hooked. I find the program very interesting as I try to deepen my faith and knowledge of the Catholic Church. I have a lot of friends who converted to Protestant churches. I will continue to learn every day, and hopefully I can share what I've learned with them."
~ Seri, South Korea
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"Since the sanctification of man is in the power of God who sanctifies, it is not in the competency of man to choose the things by which he is to be sanctified, but this must be determined by Divine institution."
~ St. Thomas Aquinas, from his Summa Theologica, as excerpted in the article Sacraments


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Kazakh language instructor learns new methods
MONTEREY, Calif. – In the military, one comes to expect the unexpected, and an exchange between military schools in Kazakhstan and California is no different.
Every year, a handful of language instructors from the Kazakhstan Military Institute of Foreign Language visits the Defense Language Institute Foreign Language Center (DLIFLC) to learn about the latest technology and methods for teaching foreign languages. This year's visit took place during the first full week of March, and included six instructors who teach Chinese, German, Russian, and Turkish.
The Kazakh Institute is Kazakhstan is the equivalent to a combination of DLIFLC and the United States Military Academy. Since 2008, the partnership between DLIFLC and the Kazakhstan Institute has flourished through annual faculty visits and the enrollment of Kazakh cadets in DLI's English Language Center at Lackland Air Force Base, Texas.
Getting down to the nitty-gritty of how to share means and methods, Assenowa Gulnar, a native Kazakh who teaches German at the military institute, began her first day with a classroom observation; the following day had her preparing a lesson plan, under the guide of her American counterpart and an academic specialist; and she finished her third day of the exchange by co-teaching a one-hour German class, concluding with a creative exercise. The end result was practical experience gained, and knowledge and insight into how Americans teach and learn differently.
"Today was an example. We watched a film, then we spoke about the reason for the words used in this film, and the students expressed their opinions, and it all worked out," shared Gulnar after the success of the practical exercise she led.
The main difference in the teaching methods between the two schools lies in the length of study (in the case of German - five years in Kazakhstan versus 36-weeks at DLIFLC), and the use of technology. The Kazakh institute does not have SMART
Boards, issue tablet PCs and iPods, or have the availability of a multitude of other media.
However, the real difference felt by Gulnar lies in how the students and teachers interact. "My colleagues and I like the format. They [students] can change their opinions and express their thoughts," said Gulnar, praising the freedoms of both teachers and students at DLIFLC.
Earlier, Gulnar conveyed her observations with Saliha Murtic, department chair of Multilanguage School A, who relayed the underlying principle that DLIFLC's methods are student-centered, while the instruction in Kazakhstan is primarily teacher-centered.
"They don't have that flexibility, … that freedom for the teacher to be creative and to bring their own authentic material on a regular basis," explained Murtic, to describe some of the benefits of DLIFLC's pedagogy.
Before the delegation departed, Murtic put together a packet for Gulnar about the immersions done by the German students at DLIFLC in hopes that Gulnar can use the ideas to continue developing her students' learning through new teaching methods.
Story and photos by:
Sgt. 1st Class Rebecca Doucette, Strategic Communications
Photo 1: (l to r) DLIFLC German instructor Wolfhild Wolf shares her thoughts with Kazakh German instructor Assenowa Gulnar following a skit performed by German students outside the European and Emerging Language School at DLIFLC in Monterey, Calif., March 8. (Army photo by Sergeant First Class Rebecca Doucette) (Released)
Photo 2: DLIFLC German students and Assenowa Gulnar (in red), a German exchange teacher from Kazakhstan, listen to feedback from German Instructor Wolfhild Wolf, following a skit the students performed outside their classroom at DLIFLC in Monterey, Calif., March 8. (Army photo by Sergeant First Class Rebecca Doucette) (Released)
DLIFLC 1759 Lewis Rd. Bldg 614, Ste. 251 - Presidio of Monterey - Monterey, CA 93944 (831) 242-7176, (DSN-768)


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Boca boy, 11, a budding entrepreneur
UPDATED 9:54 AM EST Nov 28, 2012A Boca Raton boy now has a popular kids' toy on the market, and his next goal is to find a partner to invest.
The views expressed are not those of this site, this station or its affiliated companies. By posting your comments you agree to accept our terms of use.blog comments powered by Disqus


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Hearings on Pennsylvania "intelligent design" billThe Pennsylvania House subcommittee on basic education held hearings on June 20, 2005, on House Bill 1007, which would allow school boards to include "intelligent design" in any curriculum containing evolution and allow teachers to use, subject to the approval of the board, "supporting evidence deemed necessary for instruction on the theory of intelligent design." Science still under siege in Kansas
Following the widely criticized "kangaroo court" hearings on evolution in May 2005, the place of evolution in the Kansas state science standards remains unsettled. The standards have been revised along the lines suggested by local advocates of "intelligent design," and are to be reviewed by the original writing committee in early August. Later in August, the board will consider the standards again in light of the original writing committee's comments, and decide on a final version, which will then undergo external review. A final vote is now expected in September. ACS issues statement on teaching evolution
In a press release issued on June 20, 2005, the American Chemical Society released a statement [Link broken] in support of teaching evolution, adopted by the ACS board of directors on June 5. The statement reads, in its entirety: Antievolution legislation in South Carolina againOn June 1, 2005, a bill modeled on the so-called Santorum language stripped from the federal No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 was introduced in the South Carolina Senate and referred to the senate's Committee on Education. If enacted, S. AAUP issues statement on teaching evolution
In a press release issued on June 17, 2005, the American Association of University Professors announced that at its June 11, 2005, meeting, it adopted a statement in support of teaching evolution. The statement reads, in its entirety: The theory of evolution is all but universally accepted in the community of scholars and has contributed immeasurably to our understanding of the natural world. Pages |
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Support NCSE and the integrity of science education >> by joining, renewing, or donating.


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Buruma Aoi is a lovely Japanese teen. She is changing up after class to go swimming. She is spotted by two guys and she is looking hot and busty in her suit. She is making out with them and she is going to give both guys blowjobs and starts sucking cock while getting fingered by the second guy. She gets her hairy cunt licked and fingered while her bathing suit is getting holes cut in it so they can get to her big tits to fondle them. She gets a cock ride, and then is mounted doggy style for a hard pussy fucking. She has her orgasm and finishes up wih a multiple cumshot! Buruma Aoi enjoys getting laid in the locker room!
Screenshots (Total 148) | Comments (0) | Detailed Info | More Stuff |
Yuria Satomi |
Yuria Satomi is a hot Asian MILF in her office suit. She is in the break room with a co worker and he is interested in her sexy pantyhose and her pussy. She is making out with him and doing some hand work on his cock when he gets to her w..
Yuria Satomi |
Round tit and horny babe Yuria Satomi making out and hardcore fucked. She tease and makes out with her hung lover and strips down on her sexy dress. She get her boobies squuezed and wet pussy licked. She humps on his cock, grinds on it ti..
Yuri Matsushima |
Yuri Matsushima is a hot Asian MILF with a busty form she likes having her boyfriend lick when she is lactating. They are in the bedroom and she is in her sexy lingerie while participating in some foot licking through her ripped pantyho..
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Steamy Japanese seductress performs a great oral service to her horny stud, and then gets her pink fuckable pussy stretched and licked by the excited dude. Getting wild, she gets full of pleasure of feeling the guy´s strong unbending dick in her hot wet pussy and gets cum load in her sensuous mouth
Cute Japanese beauty loves it rough and has all that it takes to have a wild night, she makes sure her boyfriend has a wild time by sucking his cock and riding it passionately, she is licked in return which she enjoys. The voyeur cam is recording their hot sex session!
Insolent Japanese babe with slim form and small tits is close to a smashing hardcore threesome with two guys horny for her wet pussy and tight ass. Watch alluring model sucking and fucking like true porn star while screaming and feeling the guys large cocks cracking every inch of her tight holes.
Amazing Japanese amateur hottie Ayumi Hasegawa is eager to have car sex and she poses in front of her boyfriend, demonstrating her hot sexy body. The hottie has adorable big tits, and she pulls up her lingerie, demonstrating her breathtaking bouncing boobs, and this erotic scene is really wonderful
Sweet Japanese amateur teen looks so cute in her lovely uniform and a fancy hat. This leggy hottie looks really sexy, and her boyfriend goes really mad having sex with her. He rips her pantyhose in ecstasy and fingers her lovely wet pussy and stimulates it with sex toys. Then he gets the hottie impaled on his hard boner and fucks the sexy girl incredibly hard
Kinky Japanese milf enjoys hardcore sex games, and she gets extremely excited when her horny studs tease and squeeze her curvaceous busty body in a really hard way. The guys oil her body and fuck her amazing big boobs, and the gagged lady enjoys really tough pussy banging action and gets cumshot in her horny mouth
Asian homegirl has mad skills in bed taking a guy for a wild spin… Hot milf sits on cock and rides it all night long…she rides it and makes sure she can not feel her legs… it gives him extreme pleasure
Sexy asian beauty has her face filled with cum as she is penetrated deep. she enjoys the wild sensational fuck and begs her boyfriend to go deeper and penetrated her juicy waters… she loves when she is licked!
Cute amateur asian beauty enjoys how her cunt is banged. This is hardcore action as she lifts her legs high and has her cunt penetrated. her creamed pussy tastes yummy as she enjoys a wild ccok riding session
Nice looking Japanese chick with hairy pussy has a lot of fun having a cover on her eyes and experiencing hot body teasing and hardcore banging by a big massive guy. The horny chick gets her mouth stuffed with his dick and gives him a cute cock sucking, and then she spreads her legs for games with her pussy, and gets it fingered and banged


text: Vet Recalls Christmas During Battle of the Bulge December 24, 1994 Tom Chapman was in the trenches with the 101st Airborne Division, in the midst of the Battle of the Bulge. He says the Germans had captured the U.S. supply trucks, so he and his fellow soldiers had no coats, no gloves, no blankets, just their regular uniforms. Listen Loading… Playlist


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Yasmeen T.I Just Like It Bater Then Razeyes, I did get resultsposted Aug 31, 2014Link to this post
CocoLove This Product After Reseaching And Trying It.Well I'm always very skeptical about everything and before I bought this product I looked up reviews and youtube many many videos and finally got convinced into buying one. And I will say that I love my epilator!! Yes it hurts in the beginning but the pain lasts only a few. I did a test I shaved one leg and epilated the other. A week later epilated leg is still smooth, and the shaved one... well it needed to be epilated ASAP! I def recommend this to everyone its faster, less messy, and u don't have to shave anymore! By the way I don't think its really loud. I know a guy who saw me and he got one for himself and he epilates his chest. :) he lovess it too. Sooooo IF U WANNA BE HAIR FREE U SHOULD GET ONE. DEF
posted Nov 9, 2010Link to this post -
RileyEarthEmjoi EpilatorThis was the best of the three epilators we ordered although all work well. Once people wax a few times and never shave again. This machine works very well with very little discomfort. trying to use these machines on shaved hair is painful. Wax a few times and when the hair starts to grow in soft the epilator works great. The first 30 sec may hurt but after that the skin numbs. Great Product!posted Apr 6, 2010Link to this post
Kel B.Long Island, New YorkGrabed My Lip Like It Was A Piece Of MeatReally, I kept my lip tight and all of a sudden the skin above my lip was grabed and held in like a grinder. I turned it off and got loose. It left a bad mark that better not be permanent...posted Mar 8, 2010Link to this post
DarleneCanadaLove It!I'm pretty pain in-tolerant so I was a little afraid to start using my epilator, but after a few uses you really do get used to the pain, and the pain becomes less and less. I love that it can be used cordless because this is the sort of thing I'd love to take on a trip, but when at home I usually keep it plugged in. I would definitely recommend this to everyone because 4-6 weeks of not having to shave is definitely worth a little pain!posted Jan 31, 2010Link to this post
BarbaraBest Removal I Ever UsedI have better results with this Epilator than any other hair removal system I have ever tried. It isnt perfect, the pain is not bad after using it more than once. I use this on under arms, legs and bikini area. The under arm was quite painful the first time only. I had more red bumps at first. I tend to find my legs dont feel smooth but if I shave afterward the smoothness from shaving stays for over a week. I am quite hairy and normally shaved my under arms and legs daily! Now I dont shave my underarms at all and my legs weekly! I do find that epilating take more time but it well worth it. I also own the slim and use it on my face chin upper lip and eyebrows. I think this product would be too large for most of my face although occasionally I do run it over my chin when I am using it on my body. I think the slim grabs the thinner and lighter hairs of the face better.posted Dec 27, 2008Link to this post
ChanelleTexasLove ItI was worried about the pain at first but when I tried it, it wasnt as bad as I expected.. I have such sensitive skin that I cant wax, so this is exactually pretty perfect for me.. A lot of my family was actually pretty impressed with the out come of my legs and are looking into possibly buying this product for themselves.. Totally give it 5 stars!posted May 9, 2008Link to this post
BarbieNyVery HappyI just got one the other day, and it works GREAT!!!! I feel so much better now about myself, and it did not hurt to muchtho Im used to tweezers. I tweeze everday all day, but with this it was 5 mins and hair was gone. I am so happy with this product. I was starting to look like a man, but now =) YAY!!!!posted May 2, 2008Link to this post
DianaBetter Than I ThoughtThis epilator was painful and my legs did not feel smooth after spending more time epilating than shaving, so I returned it. Interestly enough, the weeks following I only had to shave once or twice a week...may re-order again...posted Apr 14, 2008Link to this post
MarciaSt. Petersburg FlA Good OptionI am an esthetician and normally wax my legs, bikini and underarms but like the ease and "no mess" way this works. Id recommend it to anyone that has waxed before but would tell anyone with a low pain threshold to be aware that its not pain free. Great for someone with thinner legs like me who tends to nick themselves when shaving.posted Mar 5, 2008Link to this post
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Well I started another project to help occupy my time. This time its a small scale sub the U-214.
This thing is pretty small but I have seen people do small subs before and any thing is possible.
The planes that come with the boat and I am not sure just how well this thing is going to handle but time will tell. The upper rudder on the other hand is nice an large and it should turn very nicely once submerged. Just need to figure out how to get the linkages together. I do not think that I am going to take the time to engineer the planes for easy of maintenance like I usually do. Rather I am just going to make the setup as reliable as possible and hope it lasts. After all it is only a 24 dollar boat.
The provided propeller isn't bad. The pitch isnt to big which will probably be good for the small motor it will use. I heard a good rule of thumb is to use a motor can the same Dia as your prop and you cant go wrong. Unfortunately this is not possible due to size. The prop would be a little more efficient if it had be molded with a conical twist but, I not gonna make a new one so it will have to do. Another neat thing is that the prop already has a 1/8" hole in the back and a shaft will pop right on centered.
Well here are some pics and a video of some testing i did with the prop.
The test was done using a cermark 400 motor w/ a 3-1 reduction. Sorry the quality sucks but the wife has the good camera.


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Zac Posen has been dazzling runway audiences since 2002, when he released his debut women's collection at the tender age of 21. Born and based in NYC, Posen masterfully recaptures the streamlined, ultra-feminine aesthetic of 1940s Hollywood with stunning wedding dresses, evening gowns, and ready-to-wear essentials that epitomize classic high glamour. Perfectly tailored pencil skirts, suit jackets, and sheath dresses receive an extra shot of drama thanks to loosely draping sleeves, gathered collars, peplum waistlines, and other flourishes. Carry your everyday needs in one of Posen's exquisite leather handbags, or channel Katherine Hepburn by slipping on a pair of his high-waist crepe pants. With threads and accessories like these, it's no wonder Posen has won over so many of modern-day Hollywood's fashion icons — from Kate Winslet to Katy Perry. If your A-list style comes with a D-list budget, fear not: in 2010 Posen released Z Spoke, a diffusion line in which the CFDA award-winning designer recreates his signature styles for budget-conscious tastemakers.
Stylish sheaths, wraps, and more to wear from work until the wee hours of the night.
Show some skin in these flattering, pair-with-anything finds.
Chill out this spring with dresses and separates in cool hues.
Go ultra-feminine in these perfectly flattering silhouettes


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Looking for Car Stereos?
Start shoppingVideo: Kenwood KMM-100U Digital Media Receiver
If you use an iPod® or iPhone® for your music, the Kenwood KMM-100U digital media receiver makes it easy and safe to use your player in your car. Just plug into the convenient front-panel USB input, and you'll enjoy outstanding control over your playlists right from the receiver. Plus, the KMM-100U will give digital music aficionados what they've been clamoring for: FLAC support.
[Learn more about the KMM-100U]
Zak: I'm at the Kenwood booth at CES 2013. Matt, tell me about the KMM-100U Digital Media Receiver.
Matt: So the KMM-100U is brand new for this year and it is a mechless receiver, which means it does not include a CD player but it does have USB compatibility for a variety of USB-based devices like the iPhone. It will also be compatible with Android smartphones and USB devices, like thumb drives and flash drives. It will also support a variety of different media files like WMA, ACC, MP3, and FLAC files as well. For specific applications where you require a very shallow radio the KMM-100U only is about 3" of depth.
Zak: That's fantastic. That's the KMM-100U from Kenwood.


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Regions :: Western Europe :: France Ineos to hive off vinyls into joint venture; Rafnes cracker to stay with Ineos10:22 AM MDT | April 30, 2013 | Natasha Alperowicz CW has learned that Ineos is at an advanced stage of discussions with an unnamed party to transfer the Kerling chlor-vinyls business into a joint venture, which would become one of the leading chlor-vinyls players globally. Kerling hopes to announce the name of its proposed partner and the terms of the transaction within the next few weeks, and probably by the time of its full first-quarter results on 10 May. Kerling is Europe's largest producer of polyvinyl chloride (PVC), with a 29% share of the market. It comprises the chlor-vinyl businesses of... This information is only available to Chemical Week subscribers. Forgot your user ID or password?
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Congress comes back to work this week and the fiscal cliff is its top priority. Some Republicans have said they'll break a longstanding pledge not to raise taxes. Host Michel Martin talks politics with columnist Mary Kate Cary of U.S. News and World Report and The Root's political correspondent Keli Goff.
©KSUT Public Radio 2015


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Evidenry Founda & Objctns (LAW-968-001)
Lippy, J. Jackson
Meets 5/27-7/24; Prereq: Evidence & Civil OR Criminal Trial Advocacy
A practical course designed to enrich students' understanding of the Federal Rules of Evidence and their application in a trial setting. Through a series of exercises, which simulate pretrial motions and witness examinations, students develop the skills to advocate for or against the admissibility of evidence at trial. Evidence and either Criminal or Civil Trial Advocacy are pre-requisites for this course.
Textbooks and Other Materials
The textbook information on this page was provided by the instructor. Students should use this information when considering purchases from the AU Campus Store or other vendors. Students may check here to determine if books are currently available for purchase at the AU Campus Store.
First Class Readings
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The syllabus is available in the following format(s):


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A mini cruise is a great way to enjoy a short break to Europe, giving you a chance to relax and recharge your batteries.
Our mini cruise breaks can take you to some fantastic destinations across Europe, such as Amsterdam and Haarlem , as well as between Copenhagen and Oslo .
Perfect for families, couples looking for a romantic break, or a group wanting a fun and memorable trip, our short cruises combine comfort and convenience with the chance to explore a new and exciting destination.
Enjoy two nights onboard the ship where you can take advantage of our onboard facilities, including restaurants, bars, shops, and entertainment, and relax in your own comfortable en suite cabin. You can then spend a day at your destination experiencing a new culture and history, and find lots of exciting attractions.
Already been? Our activity and themed mini cruises offer something a little different.
If you've already enjoyed one of our standard European mini breaks, you might want to try a fun activity or themed mini cruise for something a bit different. We organise both seasonal and one-off ferry trips featuring lively onboard entertainment, and an exciting twist on an Amsterdam mini cruise with a Halloween or school disco theme.
A festive shopping trip to Belgium or Denmark is another great mini cruise option, adding a bit of magic and excitement to the festive season.
Take the stress out of a family holiday and just enjoy spending time together. There's lots to do onboard to keep everyone entertained, from children's play areas, to films, bars, restaurants, and cafes.
We have a wide selection of comfortable cabins available, including 5-bed family cabins and spacious Commodore Class cabins, all with en suite shower and toilet facilities.
Along with our city destinations, we also have themed cruises such as our Halloween mini cruise to Amsterdam featuring games, competitions, and spooky entertainment. You could even enjoy a day sailing along the north east coast soaking up the summer sun, as well as an all-you-can-eat buffet lunch and live onboard entertainment.
Our mini cruises are the perfect way to spend some quality time with your loved one, enjoying the stunning sea views and the wide selection of onboard facilities.
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Get together for a fantastic trip with your friends and enjoy a group mini cruise to lots of exciting destinations in Europe. A mini cruise gives you a chance to spend time with your friends, enjoying the restaurants, bars, and entertainment available onboard.
Enjoy a holiday with a difference with one of our themed mini cruises, dressing up and having some frightful fun on our Halloween cruise to Amsterdam, and getting into the festive spirit with some lively onboard entertainment.
On a group mini cruise with DFDS Seaways, the journey is as much a part of the experience as the destination, so you can have the time to really enjoy travelling with your friends.
As well as enjoying the mini cruise experience onboard, you can enjoy exploring some fantastic European cities together, such as Amsterdam, Haarlem, and Esbjerg. You could also extend your trip with one of our hotel breaks, and spend more time enjoying your romantic holiday.


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Dear Zachary: A Letter to a Son About His Father
On Nov. 5, 2001, Dr. Andrew Bagby was murdered in a parking lot in western Pennsylvania; the prime suspect, his ex-girlfriend Dr. Shirley Turner, promptly fled the United States for St. John's, Canada, where she announced that she was pregnant with Andrew's child. She named the little boy Zachary. Filmmaker Kurt Kuenne, Andrew's oldest friend, began making a film for little Zachary as a way for him to get to know the father he'd never meet. But, when Shirley Turner was released on bail in Canada and was given custody of Zachary while awaiting extradition to the United States, the film's focus shifted to Zachary's grandparents, David and Kathleen Bagby, and their desperate efforts to win custody of the boy from the woman they knew had murdered their son. What happened next, no one could have foreseen.
Cast: Kathleen Bagby, Zachary Andrew, Kurt Kuenne, Dr. Andrew Bagby, David Bagby
Produced by: Kurt Kuenne
Directed by: Kurt Kuenne
Written by: Kurt Kuenne
Running time:
1hr 33min
Opens: Oct 31, 2008 NY
Theaters for Today |
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on this day. |


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Director Morgan Spurlock ("Supersize Me," the upcoming "Mansome" which is screening at the Tribeca film festival this week, "The Greatest Movie Ever Sold" and one of my bibles, "50 Documentaries to See Before You Die") curates his first art show "New Blood,"opening next Saturday at Thinkspace Gallery. He also kindly gave MyFDL an exclusive interview about the show.
Late Night FDL: Morgan Spurlock Curated Show "New Blood" Opens in L.A. April 28 |
By: Lisa Derrick Saturday April 21, 2012 8:00 pm |


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Front Back Suround, center, and front speaker View larger Polk Audio RM87 Home Theater Speaker System 6 compact satellites and 1 center channel speaker Item #: 107RM87B 37 Reviews This item is no longer available. Shop all Surround Sound Speaker Systems Need help? 1.888.955.6000 Email Chat Ask an expert advisor No pressure, no commission — just lots of good advice from our highly trained staff.
by Kristen Schaub Here's a great deal from Polk Audio: you get their five speaker RM85 home theater speaker system plus two additional RM7 satellite speakers, at a package price that saves you money. This seven-speaker home theater system makes it incredibly easy to enjoy high-impact home theater sound in just about any room. Engaging surround sound from compact speakers The front speakers feature two woofers set at an angle to one another, which helps them create a large, spacious soundfield with excellent coverage to the sides. Four matching satellite speakers surround your listening area with sound, for a more exciting and realistic experience with your favorite movies and video games. Just add the powered subwoofer of your choice to complete the system with deep, rumbling bass. Easy placement options The front speakers each come with a tabletop base, so you can place them on a stand or a shelf. The included wall-mount brackets let you mount and pivot the satellite speakers up to 180 degrees, so you can easily aim them toward your listening position for the best possible performance. Got wire? Most speakers don't include any. Learn about choosing and installing speaker wire at the Crutchfield Learning Center. Shop our selection of speaker wire. Product Highlights:Front speakers:frequency response 130-20,000 Hz (-3dB)sensitivity 89 dBeach handles up to 125 watts3/4" dome tweeterdual 2-1/2" woofersacoustic suspension (sealed) designwall-mount brackets and tabletop stands included4-3/8"W x 7-1/2"H x 4-5/16"DCenter channel speaker:frequency response 130-20,000 Hz (-3dB)sensitivity 89 dBhandles up to 125 watts3/4" dome tweeterdual 2-1/2" woofersacoustic suspension (sealed) designcenter speaker cradle included9-7/16"W x 3-7/8"H x 3-13/16"DSurround speakers:frequency response 140-20,000 Hz (-3dB)sensitivity 89 dBeach handles up to 100 watts1/2" dome tweeter2-1/2" wooferacoustic suspension (sealed) designinclude wall-mount brackets3-7/8"W x 6-1/8"H x 3-13/16"DSystem specs:video-shielded (prevents magnetic distortion on tube TVs)heavy-duty, non-resonant composite enclosuresblack finishwarranty: 5 yearsOur 60-day money-back guarantee Why choose a pre-matched speaker system? Looking for speakers that'll deliver thrilling, edge-of-your-seat surround sound? Choosing a pre-matched speaker system is one way to ensure seamless home theater performance. These systems are made up of speakers that share the same tonal characteristics that means the sound will stay consistent as it moves from speaker to speaker around your room. Most pre-matched systems come with a subwoofer a must-have for high-impact bass.
AMAZING Written By Scott, Pittsburgh, PA on Thursday, March 27, 2014 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Great sound for little cost! Easy to set up. Wall mounts are a little cheesy but all great overall. Pros: Price, small size huge sound
Worth the wait Written By Anonymous, Madison, WI on Monday, March 10, 2014 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Polk delivered quality again. Great seemless sound quality coming from fairly small unabtrusive enclosures. Haven't turned up the volume yet. Pros: Small size, great sound Cons: none
Simply Amazing! Written By Polk Fan 4 Life, San Juan, PR on Wednesday, February 19, 2014 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Excellent. I've being a Satisfied Polk Audio Speaker's Customer since the early 80's and I am loving it. It's Simply State of the Art Hi-Fi Quality Audio Sound. Highly Recommended System. Currently I owned 2 Polk Soundbars, One Polk Audio Computer Speakers, And this Superb & Awesome 7.1 Speaker System. Pros: Detailed Hi-Fidelity Sound like No other Brand on the Market. Great Indeed. Cons: Nothing!
Polk Audio RM87 Home Theater Speaker System Written By Anonymous, Burnsville,N.C. on Sunday, February 16, 2014 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) This product exceeds expectations in categories of style, price,ease of set up and especially sonic quality . Could not be happier. Thank you Polk Audio for a product well done and to you Crutchfield for being the best online electronic sales organization out there.
Polk RM 87 Written By B S, Houston, TX on Monday, January 20, 2014 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Great sound from small package, very pleased. Upgraded from old Sony system to 7.1 what a deal!
Polk Audio RM87 Home Theater Speaker System Written By Terencef, Pomona , New York on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Wow ! Great sound from speakers fantastic !
polk audio rm87 Written By PAULC, BARTOW,FL on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) nice little upgrade from my sony. Pros: Nice clear sound Cons: none
RM87 surround system. Written By GeneP, Yakima, WA on Monday, December 16, 2013 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) I have struggled going back and forth between in ceiling or surface mount surround speakers. My listening area is a bit irregular and a little more variabilty in positioning would have been nice. Of course in ceiling is more work. I decided to try surface mount. The sound from them is a bit limited. But adequate. My largest frustration is the mount configuration limitations. I resorted to wood to machine screw inserts threaded into the ceiling and then threaded the speakers on to them. I think I would have been happier with the RM97's. Pros: Look nice and good value for preformance. Top end a bit restrained for my likeing. Cons: Mounting options a bit limited for me. Would have preferred more horizontal options. But that is due more to the room configuration
Polk Audio RM87 Home Theater Speaker System Written By kyle, fort kent maine on Monday, September 09, 2013 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Amazing speaker system. Enjoy playing my ps3 on ot and cant wait to play my ps4 when it comes out. Thank you!
Big sound small footprint Written By Anonymous, Dallas, TX on Monday, July 01, 2013 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Got these with the sub setup in a 7.1 configuration. Nice full sound and handle action sequences quite well. Easy to set up and mount, although I wish they had banana clips and better wire routing, but as they are it was not bad. I have them setup in a 19' x 13' room and I am using an Onkyo TR-NX717 receiver to power them. Pros: Small size, big sound. Easy setup Look nice Cons: No banana clips.
RM87 speakers Written By CB, Indianapolis on Monday, April 08, 2013 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Nice sound and looks great Pros: Size sound quality
Polk Audio RM87 Home Theater Speaker System Written By jesusG, highland mills, ny on Monday, March 25, 2013 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Very easy to set up and they look great..truely enjoy the movie feel that comes out of these small but powerful speakers.
Polk Audio RM87 Home Theater Speaker System Written By BrianR, Sitka,Ak on Wednesday, March 06, 2013 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Love it, Love it!!! This system was easily installed and sounds wonderful. I's like being in the movie. First time with Polk Audio equipment and I am an instant fan. Pros: easy installation. great appearance (looks nice installed) Cons: Instructions are a little difficult especially the 7.1 because its 2 model numbers and hard to nail the diagram but that's small taters
Polk Audio RM87 Home Theater Speaker System Written By billpayer53, Ca on Saturday, December 08, 2012 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Excellent product. Delivered quickly and on schedule. I will definitely but from Crutchfield again. Pros: Excellent sound quality. Easy to use.
satisfied Written By ronnie l., westminster,md. on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) could not be happier with the sound for both movies and music.the polk subwoofer which i got included is very awseome.setup with my sony reciever was very simple.cruthfield is the best! Pros: great sound great price worth the money no doubt
Awesome Written By kor, St. Cloud on Saturday, February 25, 2012 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) I ordered this system with an Onkyo NR709 and got the free Polk SW111 sub. I haven't set up a theater system in about five years it took me about six hours to lay all the wire and mount all the speakers. I have to say these speakers sounded great without the receiver being tuned at all, very clear and full. Lots of range, I also like they are small and light. All and all these were a great buy, Love them. Pros: Light Small Great sound Cons: Mounting hole is on the bottom.
Newbie upgraded Written By Luke, Cherokee, IA on Saturday, February 11, 2012 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Impressive! I thought I had pretty good sound going through my Panasonic HTiB 5.1 ch system, but I wanted more power. After some research, I decided to get these speakers along with an Onkyo TX- NR609 and PSW-111 sub. WOW! I was hoping not to end up in the dog house with my decision. After firing these up and watching a blue-ray of my fav. movie. My wife loved it...no dog house for me! I was impressed too! The clarity is amazing, even at high volumes. We heard things we'd never heard before. They are relatively small and not too bad looking either. Setup was a breeze as the mounts come with them. All hardware was there. My final comment is: If you are looking to upgrade or try another speaker, these are a very good choice. Pros: Great sound, price, easy to set up, good look. Cons: If there is a con, I can't think of one.
Great Speakers Written By Christina, Little Rock, AR on Friday, February 10, 2012 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) I like the fact that these speakers are small. They pack alot of sound for such small speakers. Pros: They can be hidden anywhere. Cons: None that I can see.
Great Value Speaker Set Written By JRBoca, Boca Raton, FL on Friday, January 27, 2012 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Big, clear sound without a big price. Recommended for smaller rooms/spaces. Pros: Great Value Cons: None that I see
A Year Later... Written By Dr. Dave, Charlotte, NC on Saturday, November 26, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) I absolutely love these speakers and a great buy for the price. I got the Energy ESWC8 sub woofer as one of their on line specials. You can get a Polk subwoofer, but the only place I ever saw that deal was the monthly magazine. But the Energy is still a good little sub. Small and light weight. Was able to mount the surround and rear speakers on the wall and run the wires into the crawl space (quite a task) so I have no visable wires. My great room is 15 by 30 and they just fill the room with sound. Not sure what they go for today, but well worth it if you are looking for a low cost awsome surrond sound speaker system. The packaging was good enough to easilly survive the shipment. I have these hooked up to an Onkyo TX-SR607 AV receiver. Pros: Small, light weight, good looking great speaker for the price. Cons: Nothing.
Movie Delight Written By JohnnyT, Schenectady, NY on Thursday, November 17, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Movies will jump out and grab you and with the Polk Pro 440 sub you WILL feel it too. Music could be better, upper mids and highs and a bit hidden, but for general listening and background they are very good. The price and size make the music short fall EZ to live with. An all-round winner, Love them. Pros: Very full movie sound!! Cons: Music could be better.
Very nice! Written By John, Columbia, MO on Saturday, May 28, 2011 These are a great buy for the money. The speakers are solid and well built. Unboxing them was quite fun. Hook up was easy. They have a very natural, full warm velvety sound to them that is very easy to listen to for hours. The tweeters in these polks have a soft but strong presence to them. Other brands tweeters tend to have a sharp and shrilly sound to them which makes music not that fun to listen too. Movies sound so great it makes you want to giggle. Crank these up and you will be blown away! Using a sub is a must of course, it's better to spend a couple extra bucks now and get the next size up from the one you were looking at. Better to have a little too much bass and not use it all that often than have too little and really, really, really wish you bought the bigger sub! It takes a lot to keep up with these polks and how much they shine!
Great Speakers Written By Jimi, Rialto Ca on Thursday, May 26, 2011 These speakers are wonderful. I am impressed with the clarity of them even without a quality woofer. I am looking foward to hearing this with a quality woofer which will be my next purchase soon.
Great surround sound speaker Written By GrOcK, Kzoo, MI on Friday, April 29, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) This is a great set of speakers. I was outfitting my basement with a theater set up and went with a set of these Polk's on a whim. I am running them with a Onkyo NR609 and they sound absolutely great. I got it on a special when the free 8" power polk sub came with it so its the full set up. I have it in a 17'x40' rec room and the sound is more than enough, especially for movies. I guess a set of floor standing speakers might be more ideal for just stereo music listening but with the fronts and their side driving mids as well, it adds a lot of depth. If you tune the sub just right, it sounds really great. Of course they don't have great depth when you don't use a sub, but they are satellite speakers, what do you expect. I had a few friends try and sway my opinion into a much more expensive set up but they are blown away by the sounds these little speakers put out. The only thing I don't really like about them is the stands they come with because you really are limited in your mounting options. What can you expect, most speakers don't come with stands anyhow so I didn't take away any stars for that. All in all, great speakers, great price for a home theater. Would defiantly recommend to a friend.
Wow, what more can I say? Written By Howa, Tennessee Ridge, TN on Sunday, April 17, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) I bought these to go along with a Denon 1911 a/v reciever. I chose them mainly because of the sale price and the Polk reputation. Oh my goodness, I didn't know what I had been missing. I added an Energy subwoofer, and man am I rocking the house! Movie night has taken on a whole new meaning, the 7.1 surround is absolutely incredible. My 4 year old was watching Toy Story 3 and says to me, "Daddy, this sounds AWESOME!" She is right, thank you Crutchfield, again.
Natural Sound, Great Price Written By RichH, Pittsburgh PA on Saturday, March 19, 2011 These speakers are impressive. The sound quality is excellent. the system provides great coveage for the room. Add a sub ..... You'll be satisfied.
Polk should have done better Written By Dan, Summit County, CO on Monday, March 14, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Wow. I am not the type to trash something lightly. If I don't like something, then I usually measure my respones. The manual for these speakers was a joke. It lists 5 different product models, and mine isn't one of them. The manual couldn't even bother to tell you the difference between the two different model speakers aside from the center). It specifies to make certain you identify the lefts and the rights and not cross them; this model has no rights and lefts. The spring clips are the other reason I am trashing this system. They do not securely grasp the wire when you insert them. I spent more time reconnecting them than anything else. Shame on you, Polk Audio. You should have done better. Luckily they sound great.
audiology Written By FredO, Rio Rancho, NM on Sunday, February 27, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) I love this system, the sound is very impressive. Once again Polk has proven to me that they are one of the best in the business of audiofilia, and the price -what a steal! Thank you Crutchfield for the awesome service.
Polk Audio RM87 Home Theater Speaker System Written By Tinsley, Charleston, WV on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) I recently purchased this system along with a Denon AVR391 and Polk subwoofer. I worked with Norm to decide what would be best for my situation and he was right. This sounds awesome. I only used two of the rear surround sound speakers because of my Denon only being a 5 channel but it still sounds great. I can only imagine it would sound better with 2 additional speakers back there. The price was right as well.
Great sounding speakers Written By Brandon, NorCal on Thursday, February 17, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) These speakers sound great for a surround sound set up. I went with the 8" pro sub. It sounds amazing. I love the wireless remote. The surround sound speakers sound great for mids and highs, but the 2.5" woofers lack midbass, but with a sub pushing plenty of bass, it isn't a big deal. A sub is mandatory for these to sound supreme. I'm going to upgrade the center, and 2 fronts with bookshelf speakers for better midbass. Not a huge deal, but it will put my system over the top when I do upgrade. Thanks Crutchfield for the amazing deals!
Good System Written By Bumpa, West Richland, WA on Sunday, February 13, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Got these installed. They look great and sound very good. Two issues. One is the speaker wire clamps don't close all the way down. They are for larger wire than I have. So I had to attach a short segment of heavier wire to each. Second was the mounts seem to be constructed for in-the-wall wiring. This has made it hard to aim the two front larger speakers as the wires don't enter as designed. I had to grind a bit of the center front mount away to get the wires to the back of the speaker. Even with this I love these speakers.
Polk Audio RM87 Home Theater Speaker System Written By Anonymous, rochester ny on Saturday, February 12, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) I think that was the best theather speaker system that i ever buy .Cruthfield is the best place to shop . I highly recomended.Im so happy.
Nice...but not crisp or full enough Written By Owen, Manasquan, Nj on Friday, February 11, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) I set up the system on an Onkyo 608 receiver....and was pleased but not excited. The highs just were not crisp enough for me and the speakers just sounded a little hollow overall. I added the PSW111 sub and thought it did a nice job...but again I just felt there was better....and also upgraded the sub to the PSW125. I did the speaker comparison first with the PSW 111. The TL250 set up was a def. upgrade in performance for the same money. I ended up returning this RM87 package and upgraded to the TL250 set for the same price here on Crutchfield. The TL250's are a 5.1 system rather than the RM87's 7.1 system, but there is a noticeable difference in the highs and crispness of the speaker...also, they have a much fuller sound. I would not recommend the RM 87 speakers as I rated them a 3...However, I am truly happy with the sound and quality of the TL250 series and would give these a 4.5 based on price and sound quality...and they sell additional satellites to add if having a 7.1 system is a must.
Excellent sound quality Written By Supersundar, Centreville, VA on Thursday, February 10, 2011 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) I replaced a set of speakers that came with onkyo receiver with Polk RM87 speakers and polk subwoofer and sound quality is much better than my onkyo
Great looks, great sound, and easy install. Written By Devon, Orange Beach, Alabama on Thursday, December 23, 2010 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) I love the way these speakers look! the sound, hooked up to my Denon AVR-1611, is great! I would compare these to any small speaker out there. The speakers mount with supplied brackets with only one screw, almost too easy. I had all of my speakers up and wired in under an hour. Make sure you accompany these speakers with a powered sub woofer. This is a must! I purchased the Polk PSW111, which is perfect for this system. Bottom Line: small to medium rooms, a definite buy. Sound is great, price is fantastic. I chose these over Bose.
Polk Audio RM87 Home Theater Speaker System Written By ThatGuy, Cincinnati, OH on Monday, October 11, 2010 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) As long as your expectations are reasonable, these are great speakers. I currently have them hooked up to a Denon 3311CI with a Def.Tech ProSub 1000. They look good and the sound quality is great. As home theater speakers I have no complaints but if you plan on playing loud music often you might want to think about getting larger bookshelf speakers. The highs are great but the 2-1/2" woofers simply aren't big enough to deliver the lower-mid punch that makes it feel like you're at a rock concert. The TSi 100's are in the same price range and their 5-1/2" woofers are over 4 times the surface area of the 2-1/2"s on the RM7s. Basically, you're paying for the small size and aesthetically pleasing design. Bottom Line: these are great home theater speakers and I would recommend them to almost anyone, but you should seriously consider something bigger if you throw a lot of parties and want to blast rock music.
Amazing! Written By Mat, Essex Jct, VT on Saturday, December 26, 2009 Crutchfield Customer Review (What's this?) Picked this set up as a Xmas present to myself to replace a old Sony 7 channel speaker set that had a few cooked speakers. I couldn't believe my ears when I hitched these up, I had no idea what I had been missing. Blu Rays, Xbox360, Ipod, you name it, the sound quality is excellent. You will definitely want to match up with a subwofer, (I used a PW111). The sound is warm, well balanced, and fills my living room quite well. For the price, you are getting one heck of a sound system. The speakers are solidly constructed, and like some power, so make sure your amp has some juice to throw at them. Crutchfield was great as always, ordered Sunday nite at 10pm, and they were here Wed afternoon just in time for the holidays. (and this was the free shipping option!) Very happy with the speakers and as always, VERY happy with the service from Crutchfield!


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09.09.2013 | HP News Services
Taiwan may loosen restrictions on investment in petrochemical production in China, where new projects have already attracted interest from a few Taiwanese companies.
By FANNY LIU
TAIPEI -- Taiwan's government may loosen restrictions on investment in petrochemical production in China, where new projects have already attracted some interest from Taiwanese companies.
Taiwan's Investment Commission, which regulates outbound investments and is under the Ministry of Economics Affairs, said Monday it has proposed to let the island's petrochemical producers build naphtha cracker plants and produce ethylene and propylene in China.
Final approval of projects will hinge on conditions concerning ownership and shipment priority, Emile Chang, executive secretary of the Investment Commission, told the Wall Street Journal. Mr. Chang said the projects will have to be at least 50% owned by Taiwanese companies, which will also pledge to ship the output back to Taiwan if there is a shortage at home.
Taiwan currently doesn't allow investment in naphtha cracking in China, likely as part of efforts to avoid capital outflows.
Still, the island's petrochemical industry has been seeking investment opportunities in China after government-linked Kuokuang Petrochemical Technology Co. failed in the past two years to find a suitable site in Taiwan or Malaysia to build a much-needed naphtha cracker.
Analysts have said that Taiwan's downstream petrochemical companies might face a shortage of feedstock. Taiwan is a net importer of ethylene; it produced 3.47 million metric tons of ethylene in 2012 and imported around 348,000 metric tons of the product.
The Investment Commission's proposal has been submitted to the cabinet and is pending approval, Mr. Chang said, declining to give a time frame on the process.
Formosa Plastics Group, among the most active Taiwanese petrochemical firms investing in China, has flagged an interest to build ethylene plants in the provinces of Zhejiang and Fujian. The company currently produces petrochemical products, such as ethylene glycol and polyvinyl chloride, in its Ningbo petrochemical complex in Zhejiang province. Dow Jones Newswires
All comments are subject to editorial review. All fields are compulsory.
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sara 01.23.2014
Dear Sir/MsRose Naft company is in the background of export: oil,petrochemical,and polymer materials.This company would like to have interaction cooperation with your company.If its possible,please send to us the list of products that your company need to sale.Kind Regads Mahdi Solimani
A searchable database of project activity in the global hydrocarbon processing industry
Engineers and designers are highly skilled individuals. Forcing them to enter design changes using tables, forms and spreadsheets is unproductive and uneconomical, and it increases the likelihood of human error—this is the way that most instrumentation software systems currently work. For too long, software vendors have denied engineers and designers the simple practicality of a graphical visual engineering interface with "drag and drop" capability and inbuilt intelligence, ensuring changes are automatically replicated into all the associated data and databases.
Will previously-planned downstream investments be cut back in 2015 due to lower global oil prices?
Yes 59%
No 12%
Depends how long current prices last 30%