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As someone who lived on the shores of Lake Sloter for a year, and used Tram No.1, It is sad to see Osdorp make it to international news in such a bad way.
If Europe had more politicians in power like Wilders it would have fewer problems with colonising immigrants.
It is wrong to say that this latest incident sparked a new discussion about Islam and the whole integration-bla-bla self-fulfulling thing we're having since Fortuyn. The discussion was about the protection of reverees and about the dreadfulness of the event. His background was hardly ever mentioned, let alone in the fierce political the author is suggestion. This debate just happen, can't explain it more clear.
I guess that the lack of facts about this debate lead the author to summarize everything that has been said in the whole discussion and elaborate on that instead of making a proper analysis of the whole case. Still best illustrating my case are the meta-conclusions about the rise of the Freedom Party and the (still) ongoing debate. More is needed these days than giving flats funny names to rise in politics.
Thank you very much for your comment. Finally a thought of opinion coming from Holland.
My thoughts exactly. I followed this story in the news, and it was fundamentally different from the TE article i just read. Racism really wasn't the main topic in reality, but rather the (percieved) general loss of common standards of decency in Dutch civil society, and (again percieved) apparent deplorable example set by Dutch parents for their children. More to do with parents screaming at the top of their lungs from the sidelines during a football match, than with racism.
You're completely right. Further more, I personally interviewed Mieke Maliepard , the author of the report quoted by the journalist and I can guarantee you that this conclusion "And while their Dutch language skills have improved, immigrant groups felt less accepted in Dutch society in 2011 than they had in 2002" was never made by her. It was rather the opposite. Young Dutch Muslims go more to the mosque and still feel very attached by their original countries. Nevertheless they are structurally integrated in Dutch society what means that they are or they can be high educated, they speak good Dutch, they are able to find good jobs (The mayor of Rotterdam comes from a Muslim background) and they have Dutch friends.
I personally think that these kind of problems (beatings, thieves and such) are produced by social disparities and not by religion differences.
No muslims or arabs should expect others to treat them nicely unless they treat minorities(humans) back in their country. Same arabs who accuse people for blasphemy in their country need to get special treatment if they come to other parts of the world..
I warned about this non-assimilation 25 years ago as a grad student at the U of A'dam. I was called a bigot. The chickens have come home to roost in Holland and the whole of Europe. When I studied recently at the University of Lyon, the French were afraid to confront the anti-social behavior of Arabs. They would let them harass and intimidate them...even by the simple act of walking on the left and blocking the person properly walking on the right. I was warned I could get shot or attacked if I insisted on demanding respect. I never let anyone abuse the norms or mores of our western society. Since I was also an immigrant, I expected those who either just arrived or were children of immigrants to assimilate and honor European and French codes of conduct. I am so fed up with the SOS Racism types who pin all the problems on the majority. No, they need to look at the racism of the Arabs and other immigrants...the simple act of NOT becoming French is a racist act. If you move to a country, you obviously did not like the one you left so why replicate it in your new home?! You are obligated to accept, honor and emulate your host country's traditions and norms. It is not a choice. Otherwise, you should leave and find a country which shares your world view. We in the West do not want the type of world view they are trying to impose upon us. If we did, we would move to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc.
You are absolutely right and we should kick out of the public debate all this disgusting political correctness. He who accepts and abide by the rules of the game can stay, otherwise he is free to leave.
It might sound like a surprisingly bold comment from a Moroccan (i.e foreigner) living in Europe (Belgium) since many years but I'm disgusted by the mindset of some immigrants who try to "import" all their relics, religions , thoughts, , world views..in here. If you so like your life there, why bother to come over at the very first place?
I'm evenly disgusted by the reactions of our so-called political leaders and pundits whose views sway from the very political correctness to the very xenophobic attitude. We have a problem and the only way to deal with it is to make clear cut choices:
You like Holland (for example) and you elected it as home land? Fine! But you need to become fully Dutch! You need to respect the rules, to learn the language, to clearly choose the citizenship, ....
Take it all or leave it all!
Sadly Northen Europe will not react towards this reality that political correctness makes only worse. Host countries treat with much more respect those same immigrants than the respect the latter show to the former and their citizens. I have lived in the Netherlands and I have heard several times young Maghreb immigrants or descendants violently insulting ethnic Dutch people "Get the F**k out of "our" country! Allah gave this land for us to conquer it!" It is no secret that many areas are dangerous for any white European to visit, such as Gouda and others, where "the Moroccans" will aggressively harass you and if they get the chance, cause harm to you. The same thing is happening more and more in Denmark, where I also lived for two years, and in more than one occasion I had to walk away from unprovoked aggression by Arabic youngsters in large groups. All Scandinavian Countries have suffered the outbreak of abuse and rape of ethnic Scandinavian girls by immigrants from Northen Africa or the Middle East, including high numbers of convicted criminals that later on cannot be expelled from the country due to non-refoulement principle cases or statelessness (particularly Afghans, Iraqi, Somali and Palestinian people). Sadly, nowadays no one can raise a voice of alarm because immediately you will be ostracized and called racist, anti-Muslim, xenophobic etc etc etc. And finally, you will live a short? life under 24hrs protection due to ever increasing life threats and murder attempts. Europe needs to wake up before it is too late... Either they integrate and become useful citizens or they should not be admitted to the country.
I see we are getting totaly blinded here! Race and Religion are separate things!
As Dr. Bilal Philips (a Canadian that converted to Islam) says: "The Islaam being practiced in much of the Muslim world today may be referred to as Cultural Islaam which is generally a product of practices handed down from earlier generations. Some cultural practices are based on authentic Islaamic traditions, while many are not."
As a Muslim, I dont identify with killing referees or anyone, nor steeling or anything in between. Islam is not this picture the media want to transmit!
No, we are not getting blind, we are getting stupid. Take a look at the real level of education of the most Dutch between 15 and 75 and you will understand why people write what they write on these blogs. Ask someone on the streets the most superficial question about...whatever and the only thing they tell is the official rhetoric- brain wash stupidity.
We are getting discriminatory because we get stupid, uninstructed, we do not need to look for, read or thing about what we are saying. We are just vomiting opinions about everything and lost the habit of wanting to understand what we are saying.
I am not a muslim, but I agree with you.
Do you mean that all sins lay in the lack of education? Foreigners are not to blame for any of the bad things we witness in our everyday's life?
I understand where people get this opinion from, and its the same sort of brainwashing from the Media as most comments here describe Islam.
The point is: Its better and easier for extreme right politics to blame Islam as it includes a broader range of people (Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, and so on...) than to distinguish and address each one of these people/problem. And the problem, as in almost all European countries is "immigration".
I mean many of the wrong connections and correlations in statements like this poorely written article are due to lack of education, yes.
I also mean that many Dutch would have more nuanced opinions about islam if they took the time to read some history and get info about what is really written in the Koran.
They might also have more nuanced opinions if they took the time to read about our own history, about western history, about christianity's history.
I have no personal religious beliefs, but I do have personal curiosity to get some information before ventilating generalizing, superficial comments, yes.
No, foreigners are never to blame, as "blond people" as a group are to blame. Every one of us is a foreigner somewhere so no group is to blame. Just individuals.
I can really agree with all your comments bar the facts that Dutch ought to read about Islam and Koran. Why? They live in a relax society and I don't think they "have to" learn about the Koran to understand "why" the others act this way. I can nearly hear them saying: " No thanks, I don't need to know about Islam, Buddhism, pastafarism, etc..."
Of course, not all Dutch are bright geniuses yet they understand the basics of gender equality, humans rights, respect to different opinions etc,.
I'm a non Dutch and I have no particular religious beliefs and thus, can talk about those topics without fears of being labelled racist or anything like that. Foreigners have to respect the codes of conduct of the society they live in and have to enshrine it in their offspring's minds merely because there are, and there will always be autochthones and foreigners. Sorry, but we are not all foreigners everywhere
Thanks for this nice chat
In my opinion the true roots of this lack of mutual understanding are plural:
- the western world is accustomed to the idea that it has a born right to wellfare. This wellfare is under pressure for a while and no poitician (be it left or right) admits it is mismanagement of the politics itself. The ""logicalguilt" is always "outside". The myth of the threatened nation was always successfull, not only for current leaders against their own voters, but since old times: the Romans were perfect, the Barbarians ruined their perfect empire, the communist dictators were perfect, "the rotten West" threatened well being, etc. The anti-muslim/ anti-islam speech is part of a long, uninterrouted series of "blaming the outside" for errors of the inside. Just think and Bush jr. and now Hollande to see the pattern is always the same
-the lack of education makes the voters mass receptive for this discourse. If one would be stimulated to read some history, politics, theology, one would question these opinions. Unfortunately this does not happen.
1.Dutch should learn about all religions because they are part of the world we live in.
2.The Dutch have a history of heterogenous roots and what ketp the nation together was mutual understanding. The same stupid oneliners now told about muslims used to be told by catholics against protestants and the other way around, by people in the north against people in the south (we are talking almost 300 km here!), etc. When we started to rationally understand who believes what and why, we also started to understand that underlining mutual grounds makes us rich, while underlining differences makes us undermine each other.
3.WE ASKED people from Marocco, Turkey, Italy, etc TO COME to this country. This means we should also respect them and show interest in who they are. Idiots who write that "muslims should go home" do not know that THEY ARE HOME HERE!. This is why they should be respected and not discriminated against. They are not foreigners.
The question is not wheather one should respect the laws of a country, of course they should. The matter is that it is wrong in my opinion to correlate one person's criminal behaviour to the group it belongs to.
Pim Fortuyn, a Dutch politician was murdered in plain daylight, for his beliefs, by a very Dutch, white environmentalist. But no one says "the greens" should "go home" or taught to respect the law. Breivik was Norwegian, but no one asks if there is something in their culture/ religion/ society which explains such a crime. Of course it is not. A person who commits a crime should be treated as such, no matter surname, colour or religion. The reason why we treat one incident different than the other is that we do KNOW that norwegians/ greens/ etc are not "guilty by design". Yet some groups of people seem to be that. And this is wrong.
So the Dutch are both racists and hypocrites.
Sorry but I beg to differ.
Deeply entrenched racism is no more prevalent than in neighboring European nations. The difference lies in its expression.
The Dutch tradition of "saying it like it is" (being "bot" as they say: blunt with a veangeance) means race-related issues will not be hushed down. When a juvenile delinquent is arrested and he is an immigrant, the newspapers will report the fact, whereas French newspapers (for example) will leave it for their readers to deduct from the culprit's name.
On the other hand, political correctness is very strong due to the hold of the churches on Dutch politics (and media).
Hence a somewhat schizophrenic situation which opens the Dutch, unfairly IMHO, to the accusations I quoted.
This is really for the Dutch to sort out, without snide comments from abroad. Especially since such comments, given the Dutch's robust contrarian mindset, can only be counterproductive.
"...unexplained dispute. [the victim] was white. His young assailants were ethnic Moroccans" - Well that about explains it, does it not?! As well it explains "the image native Dutch have of Muslim groups" on which political correct !#@#%@s, like the writers of this piece invariably "place the blame".
The Dutch have let millions of medieval barbarians in their midst; now they face the consequences.
"halal flats" ????
You've got to be ***** kidding.
Amidst an advanced western society this bowing to the darkest middle age culture???
I can't believe it!
A prayer room in an amusement park and flats with some facilities for Muslims are ethnic incidents according to The Economist? Both examples make life for Muslims (at least a little bit) easier in the Netherlands.
Why should life be made "easier" for muslims here?
If they don't like it why don't they leave and go home?
BECAUSE WE ARE - OR PRETEND TO BE A CIVILISED NATION. Because each and everybody´s life should be easy or nice or bearable.
Because migrants and foreigners made us rich.
Because luckily not everyone votes Wilders and not everyone finishes their education after few years of vmbo.
Even at the expense of Dutch (and European) values regarding gender equality?
Freedom to pray OK, freedom to discriminate and honor-kill not OK, how is that uncivilized?
The Dutch authorities once provided immigrant Muslim women with bicycles in order to foster their independence from meddling brothers and fathers. Now I guess they hand out burqas.
Next step local sharia courts, like in Britain.
I think that there should be a church at the amusement park, so that Christians who want to go to the amusement park on Sundays can also go to church. Isn't that just ridiculous? If a Christian feels strongly about going to church on Sundays, then they should go to church, not to the amusement park. Why should Muslims, or Buddhists, Jews or any other group for that matter, get any kind of special treatment?
If you think that the average immigrant in the Netherlands has a tough, unbearable life, then you don't know what a hard life is.
All religions threaten gender equality. It is kind if inherent of the fact that they were conceived 3000 years ago or more. Ever heard of a party called SGP? Could you please tell me if there is another European country stating openly INequality of gender? Each and every organised religion has excesses, heroes, pioneers and reformers. I am not muslim but I did took the time to have some reading about their history, culture and religion before discriminating. Islam is not better or worse that any other organised religion. Muslims as a collective are ...a heterogenous collective of people, with good guys, bad guys, extremists, non extremists, etc.
Freedom to pray should be equal for each and everyone everywhere!
If you follow Dutch media you might have heard of the HUNDREADS of cases of child abuse in the Catholic Church, ALL OVER THE WORLD. Should (former) catholics also be "sent back"? Duscriminated against? Is child abuse inherent to christianity? To catholicism? Or where those just groups of criminals as there are in each religion who should be punsiheed accordingly AS PERSONS NOT AS GROUP?
Dear author, this is an extremely uninformed article, poorely written and poorely conceived.
1. The tragedy of the line referee has nothing whatsoever with racism. There were 25 (twentyfive) people arrested, by far not all of them muslim, antillian or whatever. It is still highly unclear if the crime was commited by a non blond, non dutch-to the third generation- person.
2. The murder of the 16 year old daughter by the mother is AGAIN unsolved. The investigators said literally that "they keep all options open". When asked if "all options include even honour murder", they confirmed.
It is a little bit of difference there, isn't it?
All your connections regarding politics, Wilders, etc. are highly improbable, uninformed and far fetched.
A lousy article indeed!
Dear Flying Dutch100,
A few points:
1: The Nieuw Sloten football club is mostly made up from minorities. Osdorp has a lot Morrocans in it. Of the 25 arrests made, most were taken in for questioning only and are not suspects. The suspects are Morrocans.
2: While formally untill there is a verdict nothing is established, the direction of the investigation is into an honour killing. Someone on here remarked that honour killings do not exist in Islam. While that is true, only Muslim societies still practice those killings. Immigrants from those societies bring the ghastly practice to our countries. The difference between honour killings being a mostly cultural instead of purely religious item is academic. In practice the two are inseperable.
The immigrant problem in the Netherlands is mostly with non-Western immigrants from Muslim countries. (With Poles and other ex-Warshaw pact countries a good runner-up). There also tens of thousands of British and Irish immigrants and expats. They cause no trouble. Nor do Chinese and Indonesians of whom there are an equal number.
Somehow the cultures of the North African immigrants make for lousy integration. Compare the Morrocans, Tunisians and what have you with the Turks who came around the same time and got the same jobs. The Turks, while they had their problems seem to do fine nowadays.
"with poles and other ex-warsaw pact countries a good runner up"
Please explain to me why is it that Polish people integrate extremely well in Germany and extremely well in America but for some reason they cannot integrate into Holland or Britain instead forming paralell societies?
Is it the Poles that are the problem or is it the nationalism in countires like Britain and Holland that is the problem? Because i believe its the latter
Your assessment is wrong. It has a lot to do with racism. The Dutch invented apartheid, don't talk about the Boers. And foreigners who live in Holland know it.
SA was a Dutch colony until 1806. Apartheid became the official politics in 1948. Maybe a lot of the Boers were of Dutch descent, but that doesn't make them Dutch. Australians, Canadians, Americans of English descent aren't English. So why are South Africans of Dutch descent Dutch?
The disregard that exist in the Netherlands for Polish (but also Romanian and other ex-Warshaw Pact) immigrant workers has little to do with nationalism or racism. It is economical in nature and exploited by nationalist and racist politicians and media. Because of the economic problems foreign workers willing to undercut minimum wages and dodge labour agreements that Dutch workers are bound to creates animosity: the sentiment is -and not wrongly so- that they are stealing jobs.
Add to that the insular nature of these workers and their endemic alcohol abuse (something like 20x more alcohol related road accidents amongst Poles) and you have a recipe for problems.
The insularity in Holland isn't caused by Dutch racism. It is caused by the transient nature of their presence: when the job's done, so are they. They're not here to stay, but while they do they live and work in circumstances that would drive anyone to the bottle!
Perhaps the people putting up knee-jerk responses here should think their replies through before posting them. Especially the Kranky Krauts on here!
Your arguments about drinking is based on stereotypes not on facts. The facts are that statistically Polish people have the lowest alcohol consumption in the whole eu, together with the Latvians and the Lithuanians. The Dutch, French, German British and almost all nations in the eu drink substantially more than the poles. And this is according to an eu statistical body: http://www.rynekzdrowia.pl/Po-godzinach/Eurobarometr-Polacy-pija-najmnie...
Poland has moved forward substantially, more than you can imagine, perhaps the mentality of your people should move forward, instead of being permanently stuck in cold war ages.
This WHO survey shows a different picture:
Besides that is not the point. Korporaal wasn't talking about Poland, but about Polish seasonal workers, who very often live in less then ideal conditions.
My arguments on drinking are based on police reports about people pulled from ditches and engaged in accidents on public roads. About 1 in 10 accidents are caused by alcohol. 2 out of 10 alcohol induced accidents are caused by Eastern Europeans, mostly builders, lorry drivers and seasonal workers; the majority of whom are....indeed: Polish.
ChrisFrance, please don't believe the EU statistics! Remember what Benjamin Disraeli said about politicized statistics.
Of course the Dutch are racists! Look at the comments posted by my fellow citizens, which make me feel deeply ashamed I am Dutch.
But the referee murder has nothing to do whatsoever with racism. Neither the supposed "honour crime".
The Dutch are racists in a hypocritical way: they do not hire people with a foreign surname, they stay within their own tiny group. They do not kill foreigners/otherwise looking people on the streets. On the contrary. They tell foreigners it is "interesting" they have different habits.
At the same time when the crimes cited in the article happened, was also found out that a peasant from village A raped and killed a girl from village B. Does this mean we are in civil war? Or does it just mean imbecils exist everywhere and they should be contained, no matter colour, race, religion, etc?
The last political crime in Holland, the murder of Pim Fortuyn was done by a white, Dutch environmentalist. Shall we send the greens out of the country as well..
Actually the problem is the other way round. The Poles in the UK work hard and do jobs the indigenous UK folks will not. They are a bit lively, enjoy their drink but the concentration in some areas causes resentment but they go to school, church and will be assimilated in time and frankly I welcome them. I admire hard work and striving and their efforts to integrate. In the Netherlands it is a similar problem and the bulb growing area here would fail without them but again there quite a lot of them here and they are a bit lively compared with the rather dour, excessively law abiding Dutch (try putting your rubbish out on the wrong day!) No, the Poles are no problem that will not be cured.
No, you are wrong. You dont understand Polish people at all. They dont go to other countries to change their nationality, they go there to earn money. And this is where the problem lies. In certain countries like Britain and Holland, the people think that if you are to live in their country you are to change your nationality and become like them. With theirreligion, their language, their culture etc.. Most Polish people could never do that, and they would not want to do it either.
Some countries are open, and tolerant and being who you are is not a problem. But the countries that have nationalism, those countries canot tolerate people of other cultures, languages, or customs instead they try to force them to change, or as they call it "to integrate."
Look at it this way, from my opinion, i would choose Brussels over Amsterdam any day - without even thinking. And i've been to both cities many many times.
I agree with you. Here in the island of Jersey (located in the sea between France and Britain), there is a very large Polish population. They are very hard working and the local people have a lot of respect for them. In the UK itself, I think there is no major problem - there are minor issues with all East European immigrants - relating more to the current (weak) economic situation in the UK. When the economy improves, these resentments will disappear.
Race in the Netherlands. The aftermath of a football tragedy. There is indeed a serious problem. The Dutch are racist by nature, with a superficial politeness they hide a " I'm all right Jack keep your hands off of my stack" mentality. Thing will get interesting when Jeroen Dijsselbloem a labour Politian who should takes over from Luxembourg's Jean-Claude Juncker in the Euro management. The choice seems that of "Hobson's" as many refused the job. The Wall Street Journal commentated "in terms of international recognition, president of the European Council Herman van Rompuy and EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton are movie stars compared to Dijsselbloem" if "Hotel Transylvania" and "Psycho" the movies intended was not clear.
I have spent my whole life in and among immigrant communities and I have concluded that (1) all cultures by their very nature think highly of themselves and a little less so of other cultures and (2) most cultures have an extreme element which may act on those preferences. That said, some cultures have a more highly active extreme element and some seem to have almost no extreme element. I can assure you that some cultures have a high need and desire to dominate those around them, and may even have codified that dominance in their "book," if you get my drift. Unless you have read their "book" your understanding is probably less than it could be.
Your comment sounds quite moderate on the one side and still discriminating on the other.
Having read "the books" could you tell me which organise religion does NOT have a militant element? Is Judaism NOT militant? Is Christianity NOT militant? All monotheistic religions can be read in an extreme way if one wishes and all of them gave extremists.
This does not entitle one (be it person or society) to criminalize a group according to its extreme, isolated members.
In fact there is a real Muslim problem all over Europe and the "political correctness" won't get ride of it...
All over Europe?
For Germany I definitively can not say that there is a muslim problem.
Some millions of muslims are living peacefully and as co-patriots in Germany.
There may be some few and very local spots with problems but in general we do not have any problem with our fellow- countrymen.
In the contrary Doener is meanwhile as popular as Bratwurst or Italian Pizza.
And Turkey is the most preferred country for German vacations:)
If some other countries now pay the price for their colonial past- tis is definitively not a European problem and much less any kind of a German business.
Just those Germans who have been since ever blamed for racism do just not have remarkable problems with foreigners although at minimum 25 % of the actual population in Germany do have foreign roots:)
Most foreigners who came to Germany passed perfect education in Germany and feel very well here.
"For Germany I definitively can not say that there is a muslim problem."
Oh please, stop these lies!
We have in Germany a huge muslim problem...in every european country there is a muslim problem! It's the muslims who make the problems...other europeans integrate more or less just fine after one generation.
The muslims detoriate and get worse the longer they live here...it doesn't get any better with worse to come!
I live in Germany and I have many friends who are muslims.
I for myself am not a muslim.
But an orthodox christian.
I never met any muslim problem in Germany and if you are telling the contrary I would like to know where you are living?
Indeed in a country of 82 or 85 millions of inhabitants there might be local problems but not at all in general.
And I am strictly against the public produced opinion that there ever has been a a threat by muslims.
This is a mere lie.
May be in the UK they have their very well deserved problems with their muslims or perhaps in France but I am not accepting that the problems of the worst enemies of Germany are going to be made of a German problem.
The Brits may handle their own problems and the French as well but both countries can not achieve to make their worst arch enemy to an ally against their own problems which have beeb caused by nobody else but the Brits and French.
Germans by tradition have ben regarded as inferior retards and enemies by Britain, the USA and France and suddenly when these countries are in a jam they are trying to make their worst arch-enemy to their ally.
Germans do not have a problem with muslims and if Brits or French have a problem it is not a German business and like most Germans I give an extremely big damn on anything any US or Brit ever will have a problem with somebody.
What happens in France, London or the USA never can bed any kind of a German business.
We take notice of it perhaps but that's it.
Nobody on this planet ever will need German advice or support (This way we have been told by you and we understood your lesson)
Where is your problem?
Fortunately we have muslims in political positions and this is very good.
And fortunately we have muslims in many leading positions .
And this is the very best that ever could happen to Germany:)
Muslims are no threat at all to Germany but nothing but a huge enrichment of culture.
People like emmafinney with her very special background are the worst threat for human mankind and humanity and I know very well from which centre of hatred in this world she is coming.
In Germany we definitively do not have problems with muslims and to my greatest pleasure I am working every day with a lot of them.
And I definitively do prefer each of them to any of those hypocritic hatemongers of the type of emmafinney and her special background.
The hatemongers are not in the Arab countries.
The professional hatemongers are people like Mr. Murdoch and his background of professional hatemongers who think they can manipulate the world into another new world war.
Meanwhile their typical dirty methods are public to a wide public.
Everybody meanwhile knows which type of people is trying to manipulate the rest of the world.
Mr Erdogan is an honourable man and he had to take notice who are his real friends and who are the fakes.
So do not tell me the usual Murdoch propaganda. It is very well known what Murdoch and his gangster journalists are trying to tell the people.
The American newspapers are occupied by the very same type of hatemongers as we know from the Murdoch press.
Q. Is this a a critical comment from an advocate of the German Federal Republic?
A. Yes, most certainly -- it is, from all appearances, a critical comment from an advocate of the German Federal Republic.
[Hope this mollifies the censor at TE]
- wrong comment -
You're overestimating the ethnic issue here, I'm afraid. Most people in The Netherlands see this as a general problem of misbehavior around football fields, not just a 'Moroccan' problem. Geert Wilders' influence on public opinion has diminished dramatically since the last elections, and not much people really took his remarks on this tragic incident very seriously.
There is no such thing as "Honour Killing" is Islam. Not in the Quran or anywhere else. It is a completely (disgraceful)cultural phenomenon that is sadly linked to Islam.
another note: If those Football hooligans were ethnic Dutch (white), would Geert want to remove their Dutch citizenship as well?
Who knows? But the thing is, they're always Muslim. It reflects horribly on moderate Muslims despite their liberalism.
The idea that "they're always Muslim" is merely incidental and an easy "hat trick" played out by populist politicians.
The situation described by The Economist is very similar in Belgian urban areas, particularly Brussels and Antwerp, not to mention the French banlieues, and can best be explained from a socio-economic point of view, also taking into account cultural (i.e. North African) elements.
What we're actually seeing are immigrant youths, typically 2nd or 3rd generation, who, for numerous reasons (and for which ALL parties involved are to blame, no political correctness required here thank you very much) consistently fail to find a place in "our" social structure. This has led to an identity crisis, which they try to circumvent by identifying with Islam. It might just as well have been Arab music, Sunni poetry, etc. but I think "our" capitalist materialism has something to do with why a religion has had a greater attraction than other forms of human activty. And make no mistake: most of these youth are no more religious-minded than I am, whatever they might claim or wish to believe themselves.
I am afraid you are wrong and the excuse of being 3rd, 4th, 6th generation is denying the problem, it is the faith. Living in the Netherlands after 18 years in various Muslim countries I agree that the racism is actually quite strong amongst the Dutch. As non Dutch people seem much freer to make observations to me about Muslims but usually suffixing he comments with 'but I should not say that'. The PC lobby is very strong and I am surprised in that some of our offices with generally younger professionals there are often anti Muslim comments. In our offices those of Surinam and Indonesian ethnicity are industrious and well accepted and I would say suffered no racism, I believe that race is not a factor. We work with some Government agencies tasked with creating and supporting Muslim employment but it is not a success. The contract with the Calvinist ethos of personal responsibility amongst the mainly secular Dutch is so apparent and the industriousness, hard work, achievement, honesty (and somewhat humourless) Dutch employee is a grating contrast with Muslims employed. Having had a son mugged, a daughter spat on and a niece abused it is not what I expected in Holland. Hashi Ali is right, it is education but it must be on the basis of if your wish to live here you will integrate and if their faith precludes their taking advantage of being here they should consider the wonderful life available in their whole Diaspora.
I agree that race is not a factor, or at least perhaps only superficially so - even though racism is alive in Europe, but then: where isn't it?
A more poignant note: why should foreigners/immigrants have to adapt to the Calvinist work ethic, i.e. industriousness? And why should I, a white male in his thirties, have to conform to it, when I realise it's exactly this ethic that has inevitably lead to overproduction, polution, mass depression etc.? Perhaps it's us Europeans who need to learn something from those "lazy, work shy" people... Reclaim our lives, find a new sense of (economic) reality.
You contract the Calvinist work ethic with "irresponsible" Muslim employee behaviour. Having spent a fair amount of time in Malaysia (ethnically and religiously closely related to Indonesia), I wonder how you overcome the apparent contradiction of the industrious, yet Muslim ethnic Indonesian. No Muslim in Malaysia or Indonesia EVER mugged me and yes, it has happened to me on several occasions in Europe. So again, I believe the cause is socio-economic with cultural - not religious - undertones. Let's remember not to confuse correlation with causation!
Anecdote: when I once mentioned the immigration issues we have in Belgium and Holland to a guide on a trek in Malaysia, he laughed at me as soon as I told him we were dealing with 2nd and 3rd generations. He told me that Malaysians (comprising of ethnic Malay, Indians and Chinese - each with a different religion) were much further down the generation line and still hadn't solved their issues. It just takes a hell of a lot of time, and were were naive to think that they could be solved in twenty or thirty years with a bunch of government integration/assimilation programs, so he said. I've thought a lot about that moment, and still believe his point of view makes sense.
Killing people is forbidden in the Koran as well as in the Bible:)
And now my question: Who has been killing more people over centuries?
Who was inventing modern slave trade over centuries?
Who dropped the first Atomic bomb ?
In Arab countries I never met racial segregation as it has been usual in the South of the USA over centuries or perhaps in South Africa or in British and French colonies?
Are you a muslim by any chance?
That would explain your insane and crazy comments about all things Germany here.
I only can see how muslims and Arabs are treated in Palestina.
Nobody ever takes even notice.
Unfortunately many of the problems in Palestine are self inflicted by the followers of Islam. Israel wishes to survive and live in peace, not an unreasonable idea except they are under a permanent threat from a faith that identifies as them as a target. Look at the Koran and its interpretation, look at the books used in Muslim schools, look at what is spoken in Mosques. I am sorry but it is a bit like a dog that jumps and bites you, you hit it with a stick, it jumps and bites you again you hit it with a stick. Even the most stupid dog will learn that biting equals punishment and desist. When they can realise that they can win a reasonable life and future if they get on with learning to live in peace and prosperity they and we can have a better world. Israel has one concern, survival. I am saddened by every loss of life and injury but it takes two to tango.
Indeed you are right and I agree that Israel must be able living in peace.
So both sides will have no choice but to negotiate a peaceful solution which is giving security and safety for both sides.
But I agree also with many muslims who say that the Koran is actually abused by radicals and the same way Christians were abusing the bible over centuries.
Slavery has been justified by the bible as well as the medieval crusades.
In a modern and more peaceful world we should stop all types of extremists.
I agree completely with you.:)
Hatred against minorities and different ethnics have had since ever an extremely long and intense tradition.
Mr. Murdoch and his bunch of hatemongers have been poisoning a lot of relationships over the last decades and that special group which is backing those type of journalists will do anything to increase their poisonous job and they are extremely successful as we can notice by the comments of emmafinney and a few others who probably do belong to that group of people.
"Why should foreigners/immigrants have to adapt to the Calvinist work ethic, i.e. industriousness?"
Here are two reasons:
1) The Muslim immigrant, or any other immigrant for that matter, came to the Netherlands for one reason: The life they could have in this country is far better than the life they would otherwise have had in their country of origin. The prosperity they enjoy in the Netherlands was built by the Calvinist work ethic. Why should they enjoy the benefit of this society without contributing to it!
2) Immigration without integration is colonisation and, if you ask anyone who has been colonised in recent history, mostly non-Europeans, as well as the PC mob in Europe, this is a terrible, terrible thing...
As far as I am concerned, immigrants are welcome in the Netherlands, and more generally Europe, as long as they are willing to assimilate into their new host societies, and contribute to these societies.
What happened in the past in the Christian faith is awful.But we have learned and as the words in the Bible are advisory not mandatory so believers can ignore them. Not so with Islam. The Koran is the exact word of Allah and may not even be queried as that is apostasy which carries the death penalty.That for a start inhibits discussion and critical thinking and leads them into a hopeless life of denial of the obvious. The well meaning sharing of guilt 'yes we understand our faith was terrible we believed in slavery etc etc' is frankly irrelevant as we do not believe in these things now and know they are wrong. Not so Islam.
The problems of Palestine have nothing to do with either Christianity or Islam. The issue there is eviction, ethnic cleansing and occupation of land. The Jews wanted to move from Europe to Asia. Fine. But, instead of having the humility of a guest, the Zionists adopted the arrogance of a racist colonial power.
Zionists have been responsible for planned ethnic cleansing in Palestine for the past several decades. The reality is that the planned ethnic cleansing of Palestine began well before 1947 - a synopsis is given below:
"In 1947, there were 630,000 Jews and 1,300,000 Palestinian Arabs. Thus, by the time of the United Nations partition of Palestine in 1947, the Jews were 31% of the population.
The decision to partition Palestine, promoted by the leading imperialist powers and Stalin's Soviet Union, gave 54% of the fertile land to the Zionist movement. But before the state of Israel was established, the Irgun and Haganah seized three-quarters of the land and expelled virtually all the inhabitants.
In 1948, there were 475 Palestinian villages and towns. Of these, 385 were razed to the ground, reduced to rubble. Ninety remain, stripped of their land."
"In 1940, Joseph Weitz, the head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department, which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine, wrote:
Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left.
Joseph Weitz elaborated upon the practical meaning of rendering Palestine "Jewish":
There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument: ... the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish ... with a non-Jewish minority limited to fifteen percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary.
The Koenig Report stated this policy even more bluntly:
We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.
Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, declaimed: "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves."
These are the words of Uri Lubrani, Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, in 1960: "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters."
Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Armed Forces stated:
We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel ... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.
Eitan elaborated before the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee:
When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do will be to scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle."
"The territorial ambitions of Zionism were clearly spelled out by David Ben Gurion in a speech to a Zionist meeting on October 13, 1936: "We do not suggest that we announce now our final aim which is far reaching – even more so than the Revisionists who oppose Partition. I am unwilling to abandon the great vision, the final vision which is an organic, spiritual and ideological component of my ... Zionist aspirations."
In the same year, Ben Gurion wrote in a letter to his son:
A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. I am certain that we can not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country and the region.
In 1937, he declaimed:
"The boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." [47] In 1938, he was more explicit: "The boundaries of Zionist aspiration," he told the World Council of Poale Zion in Tel Aviv, "include southern Lebanon, southern Syria, today's Jordan, all of Cis-Jordan [West Bank] and the Sinai."
Ben Gurion formulated Zionist strategy very clearly:
After we become a strong force as the result of the creation of the state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine. The state will only be a stage in the realization of Zionism and its task is to prepare the ground for our expansion. The state will have to preserve order – not by preaching but with machine guns."
Planned ethnic cleansing is a war crime in international law.
I therefore assume that like so many Muslim leaders and spokesmen that Israel has no right to exist, presumably the Jews never lived there at any time and the Koran suggesting killing non believers and likened Jews to pigs and monkeys all adds to the perceptive Islamic kind and tolerant view of the world. For Israels it is the desire to survive and they will do whatever it takes to stay alive . Like many in the west I suspect I do not like the way that Israel behaves but when they they are up against various Islamic states, who are all models of corruption free, kind, tolerant nations with enviable records on human rights and free speech I know who I support.
Why don't you mention utter racism at present day in Gulf countries? Memory problems?
We have learned from history that slavery or racism are not good, and now in Gulf states racism IS GOOD !
Now guess what would have happened if non--present-day-Western peoples got an opportunity to conduct slavery few hin 18-19 centuries?
Ah, you probably think they would not do it.
How many Jews did the Arabs kill since 1945? How many Jews did Europeans slaughter. We all know the last figure. The total number of deaths both civilian and military on both sides in the Arab-Israeli conflict was 90,000. How many Arab-Jews die during their expulsion from Arab lands in the last 60 years? Less than the those who died in Auschwitz on a good day.
There were so many opportunities to help the Jews, but West just dumps the problem on the Arabs. Why did the US accept more Holocaust survivors after the War? More importantly why didn't the West take in all the Soviet Jews in the early 1990s?
What does the Old Testament say about killing non-believers? Why hasn't Singapore suffered the same fate as Israel, when it too is surrounded by 250 Million Muslims.
There is enough blame to go on both sides. But Israel/Jews themselves should shoulder alot of the blame.
1) Occupation of Gaza/West Bank
2) Committing acts of Terrorism against the British when the British were administrating Palestine. What did the British do to them that was so horrible?
Prior to the 1990s, Political Islam in the West Bank/Gaza was a non entity, and Hamas' strength in the Gaza Strip has a lot to do with Israel.
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction."
They thought they could use it to counter the PLO (secular Arab nationalist). Prior to early 1990s, "political" Islam was a non-entity in Palestinian movement.
The Saudis never claimed they were a liberal "secular" democracy, Israel does. The West knows where the Saudis stand, we buy their oil. If you don't like Wahhabi Islam, which is exported from Saudi Arabia, don't buy their oil. Given that the West pumps so much money into Israel for its defense, shouldn't we be concerned when it does not live by Western values.
Let's be frank if it was not for secular European Jews settling Palestine, people like you wouldn't give a rat's ass for the Sephardi / Haredi. Arabs and Sephardi all look the same to you people. What is the difference between Haredi Jew and Wahabbist? Not much both are equally fundamentalist, and both try to enforce others to accommodate them. Increasingly Israel is becoming a religious state, in 30 years at the rate they are going, it will just be a Jewish Saudi Arabia. (without the OIL)
Every nation wishes to live in peace. Does this mean each nation should preventively bomb, hunger and kill its neighbours? Does this mean the Dutch should preventively start extending their territories in Belgium or Germany? Or the other way around?
Could you please take into account that some of us did take a history book some once in a while?
Are you really expecting one-sided, brain washed people to change opinions which are being repeated by evenly uninformed media each and every day? Haven't you realised that "some animals are more equal than others"? That you are allowed to preventively kill your neighbour if you are american or Israeli but not otherwise?
It is a wonder that your comment hasn't been deleted yet. It contains too much inconvenient truth...
Are you really expecting one-sided, brain washed people to change opinions which are being repeated by evenly uninformed media each and every day? Haven't you realised that "some animals are more equal than others"? That you are allowed to preventively kill your neighbour if you are american or Israeli but not otherwise?
It is a wonder that your comment hasn't been deleted yet. It contains too much inconvenient truth...
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