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And the Pharisee stood up and prayed thus to himself:
"God, I thank Thee that I am not as other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers or even as this publican here". ( Luke: 18:11)
« Spain is not Greece » - Elena Salago, Spanish Finance Minister, Feb 2010
"Portugal is not Greece" – The Economist, April 2010
"Greece is not Ireland" – George Papaconstantinou,Greek Finance Minister, Nov 2010
"Spain is neither Ireland nor Portugal" – Elena Salago, Spanish Finance Minister, Nov 2010
"Ireland is not in Greek territory" - Irish Finance Minister, Brian Lenihan, Nov 2010
"Neither Spain nor Portugal is Ireland" – Angel Gurria, Sec General, OECD
"Italy is not Spain" - Ed Parker, Fitch MD June 2012
"Spain is not Uganda" – Rajoy June 2012
"Uganda does not want to be Spain" - Ugandan Foreign Minister, June 2012
The Nobel peace prize seems to have backfired somewhat with some news media now taking a hard look at the EU's claim about keeping the peace in Europe.
Norwegian Nobel Committee's decision to award an ailing E.U. the Peace Prize has caused many to question whether the Brussels-based grand project of European integration deserves the full credit for transforming "most of Europe from a continent of war to a continent of peace."
Indeed, critics argue that the post-war peace was delivered by collaboration of several major players, including the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. "If they want to give the prize for preserving the peace in Europe they should divide it between NATO and the E.U.," former British Foreign Secretary Malcolm Rifkind said. "Until the end of the Cold War, it was NATO more than anyone else that kept the peace."
stressed the importance of trans-Atlantic contributions to Europe's decades of post-war stability. "I think the United States has played a far bigger role in bringing peace to Europe than the European Union,"
Here are useful links for those very Nazi blueprints of the EEC/EU that you mentioned here when we were discussing german-foregn-policy.com some time ago.
You asked about www.germanywatch (here is a speech by Rodney Atkinson at a public meeting at the Houses of Parliament on 26th Feb 2008 -updated 2010):
They trace its course from the 1940s to the planned economic distress of the nation states of Europe of today.
As a consequence it looks as if the only place safe for German holiday makers on the Med would be Croatia (see youtube link) nowadays.
The www.scribd.com link is a translation of its 1942 blueprint.
@ Joe/MIlovan (Oct 10, 16.20)
"How can any EU military intervention in Syria/Holy Land NOT start with Cyprus"
Well, the answer is it can't of course. However there are three problems with this.
Firstly, it is by no means certain that the "EU military" would be welcome in Cyprus, since the Cypriots would not take kindly to their country being used as a staging post for intervention in Syria. All the more so since Russian influence in the country is increasing, and of course there would be no cooperation from THEM. The Cypriots are even cannier than Zorbas's Greeks, better travelled and they all speak English. Have they found a solution to their own eventual bail-out problems by cosying up to the Russians? I don't think there's any doubt about it.
The second problem is your "EU" military, by which of course you mean the US, plus perhaps France and the UK. There is no way these last two will intervene on their own ,especially with France's forthcoming intervention in Mali having been programmed (but don't hold your breath). So much for "Baroness Ashton" and your "EU military". The wretched woman hasn't even made a statement on the attack on Turkey yet.
The UK, btw, has two military sovereign bases on the island, Akrotiri and Dhekilia, which few people have heard of and which could play a vital role. That is, only if the US takes part. It is a vital US/UK listening post for the ME.
The third problem is Turkey itself. Would the Turks take kindly to being helped by the US? From what I read, the answer is NO, more out of a feeling of pride than for any other reason; a feeling that they can handle things themselves, which by all accounts they can.
"I think the Turks are already demonstrating nerves of steel in this crisis. They have my respect and they deserve our concrete support". (10th Oct 22.15)
I agree 100% with this, also for the tens of thousands of refugees they have welcomed into their country. Any chance that this might give the Turkophobes in the EU food for thought?
"Turkey is the only NATO country to have shared a border with the USSR.
Not quite. Norway also had/has a border with the USSR/Russia.
"I too live in a border town" (10th Oct, 22.15)
Tell me, Joe. What's a "border"? Pretend I'm that 12 year old Maori boy you once met.
poor lttle Lebanon is forgotten !
though it welcomes as much Syrian refugies
"I agree 100% with this, also for the tens of thousands of refugees they have welcomed into their country."
And one need only to contrast the selfless and humanitarian way Turkey has dealt with its refugee crisis to the selfish, inhumane and racist way the Italians reacted to a few thousand Libyan refugees washing up on their shores.
The lack of empathy for refugess fleeing a war zone in libya was there for all to see in Joe Solaris paranoid hysterical behavior in these blogs screaming for American, British and French boys to bleed and die to keep Italy safe from Libyan refugees.
Joe, I would not question Junoir...a due respect on these matters for the former MI6 operator is well deserved.
Is that the best you dictatorship apologists can do just because some ignorant eurofascist Italian Joe Milovan or German Bore eurofascist Pumpernickel cannot win a simple argument in justification for this anti-democratic monster that has caused so much suffering in Europe?
You are taking my chit chat too seriously and I do not mean anything malicious by it...actually I like reading Junoir's posts always flavored by his humor.
To A J Maher (and other respondents) on the UK,
You write Bond markets sell on austerity as seen in the EZ....devaluation would be good for growth....being able to print the own currency is an advantage...
My point is that we don't know how the story ends yet. Interest rates could come back down again for EZ countries. If money flees from a country because people lose faith, it is seldom growth stimulating and if there is no limitation to money printing it is more difficult to convince people of the solidity of a currency.
One month ago John Major described in an article why he entered (and exited) the ERM 20 years ago ("Britain should seize this chance to strike a new deal with Europe", The Telegraph, Link triggers spam filter).
Nothing he says is new information, but it's interesting to see in what a different situation he was then. Over the last decades the UK had quite a lot of trouble with her currency (bad track record). At the moment the UK has indeed safe haven status, but so has Germany as a EZ country. You give three main reasons for the UK's situation in the bond markets. Are they in any way different to the situation of 1989 where interest rates and inflation where at 10+ percent?
France had to introduce capital controls in the early 1980s (money was fleeing despite economic stimulous by the government) and so did Britain until the 70s.
People can lose faith in the Pound. Maybe they will not, but it happened in the past and it can happen again. A downgrading, missing of growth/and fiscal targets, rise in inflation, recovery of the EZ bond markets...
In the end it could be preferable to be in a big currency block like the EZ (where some of the flight money is even recycled back into the EZ via the Swiss national bank) than having your own printing press which as a fact of its own might scare money away when you need it.
Yesterday I read that the UK is growing again, so you and the others could be right and the UK will be alright.
I am not predicting anything for the UK. But given that the data for the UK is so miserable now, in relatively good times, I have no difficulty imagining a bad scenario.
BTW why is a long redemption period for bonds a good thing except if you want to inflate it away? Does that mean bonds are all due at one time around 2015-2020? How is that reassuring for investors?
A J Maher
"Germans just do not understand the simplest principles of macroeconomics at all….."
You can't generalise like this. The socialist party Die Linke had a 100 bln investment programme in their manifesto from around 2006 and were ridiculed everywhere. This party was clearly not a serious party and their ideas for financing this, transaction tax, wealth tax was unrealistic and stupid. "We simply don't have the money". In 2006 nobody was using such numbers and 100 bln seemed to be an outragously high number.
In 2008/2009 Germany spent 150 bln for one private bank bailout alone and over 60 bln in economic stimulous.
Nobody found it ridiculous then or thought it was unpayable.
As for your view about the EZ, I find it too ideological.
"we have 17 different economies with 17 different operating conditions. These countries cannot successfully share the same policy because their economies are divergent and that divergence is growing."
Why is that a reason that these countries can't share the same currency? I can't see it.
Divergence and different policies are no problem as long as the internal current account balances of the EZ are kept in check (the market should do that). There is no theoretical problem with using another country's currency. Some Balkan countries use the Euro, many countries around the world use the USD, in fact, most governments have to prevent their citizens by law from using foreign currencies.
Not having the "tool" of exchange rates prevents countries from living beyond their means if the market works properly and leads to unmanipulated, undistorted competition.
Having said that, it may be possible that some (all?) countries would grow faster without the Euro. And if we assume there is a technological and economic advantage for Germany (and its so called satelites) that is ever growing in comparison to others in the EZ, there could be never ending permanent deflationary pressure for these countries in order to keep the EZ internally balanced. - But the effect is theoreticly the same if their currency devalued.
Some of this hardship is compensated for these countries by having lower interest rates (ignoring current distortions) because wandering money doesn't have to calculate the uncertainty of currency devaluation.
But being in the Euro highlights the need for competitiveness and efficiency in a way seperate currencies would not for most countries. So, in a world with global competition it is very possible that in the long run the efforts undertaken because of Euro-membership will pay off.
@Enlisted: "My point is that we don't know how the story ends yet. Interest rates could come back down again for EZ countries."
Well we already know that the forecasts made by the austerians that austerity would increase the confidence of the markets and reduce interest they charged on sovereign risk were complete B/S don't we? We know that their claim that austerity would encourage a wall of new private investment that would raise output levels was precisely the opposite of what actually happened don't we?
By contrast we also know that the forecasts of the Keynesians that austerity would massively reinforce the recession and push economies into great depression territory has been completely vindicated by the Greek experience and not to mention that of Spain and others (including the UK).
This story has ended enlisted – the markets do not buy austerity. The confidence fairy is a confidence trick and all those very serious people in the Bundesbank, the Chancery and No. 11 Downing Street are all dangerous idiots.
Austerity has caused a catastrophic economic collapse in Greece where 40% of the population are now in poverty, 25% are unemployed (50% youth unemployment) and those in work have suffered a net 30% cut in income. Just as in 1932 Germany the extremists of right and left are now looking at a combined (and growing) plurality of over 35% of the f*cking vote!
The Greeks should have defaulted and devalued when they still had an economy to save.
Austerity has failed catastrophically. Sitting tight and hoping for the best is not an option. Austerity must be ended now before it liquidates the European peace along with what's left of Europe's economy.
A J Maher
I could understand if you argue with Italy or Spain as examples, but not Greece.
Greece's economy was to a large part based on consumption of imports financed by debt.
If a ponzi scheme ends you don't reason "had there been another 10,000 people who invested their money there wouldn't have been this collapse", do you?
"The Greeks should have defaulted and devalued when they still had an economy to save."
AMEN!!! to that and everything else you have to say on the topic as well. If you're going to loan money you need a POA that actually works. Not an attitude that you're gifting tax payer money, so the Greek government doesn't have the right to spend it on what is needed to grow their economy out of recession, while supporting necessary expenditures as well.
Austerity is a recipe for civil war. This is not simple household economics. It's loaned money, not gifted, so Europe better come up with a POA that actually works, or they will be kissing all of that money goodbye soon enough, and then it will become gifted money. A regular self fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one Enlisted...laughs
"France had to introduce capital controls in the early 1980s (money was fleeing despite economic stimulous by the government"
it was the very socialist policies of Mitterrand when he accessed to power (the bourgeoises capitals fled, cuz "the communists were in office"), but soon reverted into "normal" in 1983, though the "evil" was done. When Giscard left France Debt was low, thanks to Raymond Barre
I still remember that goods and services prices were frozen, if you wanted to rise them, you had to deposit your request to the taxes and prices control office.
But Maher, honestly, Austerity would not fail in Italy if we were to reach a surplus next year instead of a 1.5% deficit (apparently Monti has given up on the better goal).
The point about austerity is to get economies to a sustainable level as soon as possible. The problem with Spain is that they are too far away from a budget surplus.
I also, as a non-Economist, fail to grasp the advantages to be had by the GIPS countries reverting to their own currencies as Maher and AEP are advocating ad nauseam.
Of course, I do understand the merits of having control over one's own currency, which one can devalue and inflate by creating money out of thin air but it is surely obvious that this is a short term remedy.
I remember when the pound was worth 12 DM and now look at it, 1.24 €. Not that the currency rate as such is a reflection of the inherent value of a currency or the country issuing it. Purchasing power is a better yard stick and here I would say, disregarding the cost of housing, 1€ in Germany has the purchasing power of 1.30 pounds in the UK, perhaps more. If you add housing cost the picture looks much worse.
Why can't they see that in the long term a stable currency which cannot be devalued at will by the politicians in charge offers especially the former profligate countries a much better chance to arrive at a solid household through a lot of pain, of course. Any country rejecting this solution should, by all means, leave the EZ and do its own thing. Any takers??
Why doesn't anybody listen to Maher and AEP and prefers to swallow the bitter pills administered by Frau Merkel, like as a child I remember hating to swallow this cod liver oil we were given to enhance our meagre diets, in the belief that this is the right approach.
Neither Maher nor AEP are stupid individuals. What then is their reason to persist in such a self-destructive mission? Perfidy? The wish to harm the EZ?? Ruthlessly steer Europe in a direction which will benefit the UK in the end by its destruction?
What, junoir, is the purpose to all this?
@Enlisted: "Greece's economy was to a large part based on consumption of imports financed by debt."
Yes – since joining the euro Greece had a $13 billion annual trade deficit with Germany. You know that a trade pattern is distorted when the richer trading partner extracts all the trade advantage at the expense of the poorer partner. Look up the principle of comparative advantage if you don't understand how unnatural and abnormal a trade pattern that is. So Germany has run a vendor financed subsidy for German exporters which has gone badly wrong and she now insists that the Greek taxpayer pick up the tab for subsidising German exporters. How cool is that if you are a.) a German bank or b.) a German exporter? It is very uncool if you are a Greek taxpayer. No wonder they won't pay their taxes.
@Enlisted: "If a ponzi scheme ends you don't reason "had there been another 10,000 people who invested their money their wouldn't have been this collapse", do you?"
I think that the foolish decisions of private lenders to lend money on such risky bets should be their problem to resolve with their debtors. Transferring the consequences of their failure on to the Greek taxpayer and on to the Greek unemployed is an outrageous act of socialism for banks and liquidation capitalism for the Greek citizen. This is an injustice that is being repeated Europe wide and it will reap a truly horrible harvest for the bullying regime that has imposed it.
There seems to be no recognition in Germany that it took two to build the Greek Ponzi scheme – irresponsible private core banks and irresponsible private Greek borrowers. The core banks have been granted complete immunity from the consequences of their feckless lending. The Greek borrowers have gone under and all of these debts have been shuffled onto the public accounts for the Greek taxpayer to service and repay. The state bailouts from Germany and others are overwhelmingly being used to service these bad commercial debts – they are not providing critical funding to run the Greek state. Greek taxes are no longer being used to fund the Greek state. Absent debt interest Greece achieved a primary budget surplus over a year ago.
The absurd rigmarole about whether funding for Greece can continue is a shadow play. Funding for Greece has never taken place – Greece is merely the conduit in which (inter alia) the German state is funding rotten German banks. If the German funding for Greece stops then German banks will fold – and then the scale of the real bail needed for German banking will devastate the German taxpayer and the German saver.
Let's be clear here – Greece has reduced its budget deficit by 7% in three years. That is ten times greater than the austerity achieved by Germany in the mid 2000's. The internal devaluation has been brutal. Greek pensioners have had their contracts reassigned so that core banks can be subsidised. Greek workers have had their wages cut by 30% so that core banks can be subsidised. Greek youth are suffering 53% unemployment so that core banks can be subsidised. Greek citizens have seen the largest expansion of poverty in Europe's post war history so that core banks can be subsidised. Of course Greek GDP has contracted by 23% so that core banks can be subsidised.
What has been done to Greece is a deliberate crime.
It is long past time that Germany bailed out her own rotten banks and Greece bailed out of the abusive relationship that is the euro…..
@ Joe: "But Maher, honestly, Austerity would not fail in Italy if we were to reach a surplus next year instead of a 1.5% deficit (apparently Monti has given up on the better goal).
The point about austerity is to get economies to a sustainable level as soon as possible. The problem with Spain is that they are too far away from a budget surplus."
You are targeting a reduction in the Budget deficit as though this were an end in and of itself. Chasing down government spending without understanding the impact of the cuts on GDP is a fool's errand.
Let me demonstrate what I mean. The IMF have just pointed out that the multiplier on deficit reduction in this crisis is @ 1.7. The current cuts proposed in the latest Monti budget is for 26 billion euro. After applying the multiplier this means that Italian GDP will shrink by 44.2 billion ($57.4). That means that Italian GDP will decline by 3.5%. So, in dollar terms, a $34 billion cut in government spending will result in a $57 billion fall in GDP. Since the fall in GDP is greater than the cut in government spending the government deficit as a % of GDP will deteriorate not improve.
In a severe recession (such as this) government spending (as a % of GDP) needs to grow in order to compensate for the fall in private investment. In a boom government spending needs to fall (a budget surplus). There are 2 sides to the budget deficit % - you (and the zombie European orthodoxy) ignore the critical factor – change in GDP.
So if Italian government spending were now to increase by 26 billion ($ 34 billion) the effect would be to increase GDP by $57 billion and thereby reduce your budget deficit by improving your GDP.
Of course Italy cannot do that whilst she remains in the euro (somebody else's currency). But the fact is that a modest increase in government spending combined with a sharp currency depreciation would transform Italy's economic fortunes immediately.
The euro is a barbaric fetish and it is crippling Italian welfare. Go back to the Lira Joe and this entirely artificial crisis will be over for Italy. Stay in and you will keep chasing your stupid deficit tail until your country breaks down or breaks apart (or both)....
It's a tragedy for Greece, all this saving, zorbas. We agree.
POA by which, I take it, you mean Power of Attorney collateral, is surely the answer?
But didn't they do this anyway? Surely the smart thing for a German bank lending money to a Greek bank would be to secure such loans against a commission through the wide boys, GS and JPM, who then, should the loan become due and is not paid would earn their commission by calling it in with American muscle.
I would have thought that this kind of cross insurance thing is happening anyway in the absence of real collateral like a few Greek islands. Isn't this what CDS is all about? In this case when Greece defaults in earnest the wide boys have to pay up to the German, French, Swiss banks and have to worry how to get their monies back from the Greeks. Isn't this the main reason why Geithner did all these side trips to Breslau and Sylt talking to Wolfgang to ensure that all is done to not let Greece go belly up creating all these repercussions for US banks finally settling the American tax payer with the debt, which is only proper given the origin of the crisis.
Not to forget, of course, the fear that an unstable Greece could go Commie and give the Russians and China their very own "Cuba" in the middle of Mare Nostrum.
Two very powerful reasons to keep Greece in the lolly. No Cold Turkey for Greece on the horizon. The junky is being encouraged to give himself the Golden shot.
@ Pumpernickel
"What, junoir, is the purpose to all this?"
For a change, why not ask your compatriots why a majority of them no longer have faith in the euro? Why not ask Josh or La Virity, both of whom believe that Portugal and Spain, not to mention Greece, should not be sharing a currency with Germany? Is Josh not "perfidious" in suggesting that the Iberians should 'devalue' and work their way out of their crisis? Is this (what amounts to an EZ break-up) any different from what AEP and Maher say? How about Enlisted who wants Germany to have its own currency? How about the Finns and Dutch, both now very anti-euro.? Why should "AEP and Maher" be your sole scapegoats?
What about Christine Lagarde who says that the EZ is 'the epicentreof the world crisis' and 'austerity is not the answer'?
The EZ crisis has so far cost us all €1,100 billion. For what?
On a different subject, the clearing of the streets of Athens for Merkel's visit, have you EVER known a European capital to have its streets emptied for a brief visit by another European head of government?
I haven't.
Yes Pumper, I think we have more conflicting interests here then you can shake a stick at. I don't blame Germany for protecting herself against the onslaught of the predatory markets.
Nor do I blame the Greeks for entering this union in good faith, as this terrible result for Greece could not have been predicted. All of this could have been done much better though, had simple common sense prevailed.
Way too much greed here. The only alternative would have been total and complete integration, but I will bet dollars to donuts the markets would have found a means to undermine that as well. When you don't own the heavy artillery, anything and everything you do is suspect to being undermined.
Now these very same markets that destroyed Greece are forcing Germany's hand to integrate further. Dialectics brother. No need to pick a side here, it only blinkers us to the truth.
What the markets did in betting against Greece was abhorrent behavior. It should not be allowed for the gambling casinos to bet against sovereign nations, PERIOD. They destroyed Greece for a profit.
Now they want Greece in, and further integration and growth is the ticket,a nd Germany must agree to their terms. How fickle and convenient. But, the common Greek will not be able to bail out the European banks with austerity as the POA (Plan of Action).
This is where Germany will need to stop insisting. I'm sure a workable solution will be found to buy more time.
Investment and growth are needed here, but there will be little if any. It's a stalemate, a Mexican stand off if you will.
The troika will insist "do this and that", and the two main parties in Greece will agree to do just about anything of course, until either their fragile coalition comes apart, or even worse, Tsipras is elected, and the New Dawn party starts a civil war.
Look for Germany to give Greece more time to implement the changes and pay the debt, perhaps lower interest rates as well, and for Greece to to enact legal tax loopholes for the Greeks who have no money or jobs to pay anything.
Also the Greek banks that loaned money to Greeks are refinancing. Bank mergers are under way as well of course.
So in the end, the troika can insist all they want. The common Greek has no money or commerce to bail out the European banks.
The POA will continue to be, to keep kicking the can down the road.
Some Greek islands will be leased of course, just like some military installations are leased now.
The privatization drive is on! But it's just window dressing. It will not amount to a hill of bean to make a true difference one way or another.
Greece is playing ball to get the money. They'll give the money to pay the banks. Diminishing commerce, more loaned money, more time.
It's a vicious downward spiral for the Greek economy with no end in site if the current political status quo continues.
Not to worry, Cuba on Europe's doorstep can be Obama's legacy, assuming he gets a second term of course, as I think we'll at least make it past the election.
They will do whatever it takes to keep Greece in of course. Samaras needs to find some backbone and stop whining. I don't buy into the, "please help us, we're bleeding here" thing. Better they fear you then pity you. But look at him , everything about the man screams wimp...laughs
"Chasing down government spending without understanding the impact of the cuts on GDP is a fool's errand."
Yep, you kill the GDP you kill everything. It's a package deal. Everything must be done to grow the GDP. The rest will follow. Micro managers need not apply. It takes a whole lot of arrogance for a clerk with a degree or two to think he/she can micromanage the Greek economy. Destroy it is more like it. I'm talking about the troika of course. They could not have done more damage if they tried. Accountable for nothing. Churchill would have given them all a good kick in the behinds, and sent them sprawling, brief cases with papers all a flutter...laughs
I should wuish to remind Josh, LV and Enlisted about the wider implications of Germany and the other countries going back to their currencies and they will come round to my view. Enlisted already did, if I read between the lines of his latest comments properly, where he is very sceptical, as any perceptive person should be, about Maher and AEP advocating Spain and the other GIPS going back to their old currencies AGAINST THE WISH OF THEIR POPULATION, mind you. Besides being stupid, how democratic is this approach?
LV, Josh and Enlisted would prefer a split into a North Euro and South Euro. Perhaps they should read carefully what zorbas, a Greek, has to say about the real destroyers of their economy and the same is true of the other GIPS. They are the people Maher and AEP are lobbying for. They take their readers for complete idiots (perhaps a lot of them are) by trying to blame ze Germanz, Finland, Austria and the Netherlands for all the ills befalling the GIPS.
Zorbas with his New York street wiseness has got it right.
Since when have the wishes of Europe's populations ever been a concern of yours?
Would you like me to send you a list of populations having their wishes flouted by the EU over the past 40 years, none of which seems to have worried you overmuch?
Consider what happened in France on Tuesday. The TSCG was voted through by 477 to 70 because of course the French would have voted NO if the question had been put to them in a referendum. The amazing thing is the cynicism of the whole exercise. As one 'blasé' economist put it, "If we had voted NO, then this would have created an immediate crisis in the euro-zone. Therefore we had to vote YES, so we could then discreetly ignore the criteria which would go unnoticed". That is how 'Europe' is being built. Tell me HOW can you approve of these goings on?
As for Greece and what Zorbas says, well it's very simple. If the country had never joined the EU in the first place, then we would not be in this mess today. But as usual, the EU knew best in its obsession with joining disparate countries together. It's not a question of being wise after the event. I have a link from the early 80s warning about the consequences of Greece joining the EU and will try and find it.
You still haven't told me why most Germans are now against the euro. Strange, isn't it, that you very rarely tell us what the German public think. Pedro also NEVER, not once, told us anything, about Portuguese public opinion but spent most of his time telling us about AEP and others like him.
Strange that the French media don't blame the AEPs of this world for the EZ crisis. Perhaps you could take a leaf from their book.
"I also, as a non-Economist, fail to grasp the advantages to be had by the GIPS countries reverting to their own currencies as Maher and AEP are advocating ad nauseam."
The Euro had clearly distortive effects in each economy. In Germany for example the artificially low currency led to a wave of bankruptcies (I remember well how Stoiber blamed Schröder for a record in insolvencies in 2002) because the domestic market lost purchasing power, the winners were the export industry. Internally the working population lost income while the owners of (export-)companies, shareholders got richer.
In countries where the Euro was overvalued the picture was mirror inverted. Fixed income (pensioners), wage earners benefitted, consumption grew, while the competitive industries came under pressure.
Here is an interesting graph from the FT http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2012/08/17/1123391/greece-portugal-and-spain-...
If the current crisis is overcome, I think it is possible that the situation normalises. Maybe these were all temporary effects resulting only from being thrown into the cold water of this new static Euro?
I'm sure we will have a similar period of pain in Germany if we exit the Euro. Kind of like the early 2000 but in reverse, but just as bad or probably worse until everybody got used to the DM again.
That's why as a solution I would prefer a time machine to go back into the 90s and undo the Euro introduction.
A J Maher
"Well we already know that the forecasts made by the austerians that austerity would increase the confidence of the markets and reduce interest they charged on sovereign risk were complete B/S don't we?"
Fair point, and good to remember that this was indeed an argument brought forward in 2010 (now almost forgotten). It doesn't change the fact that austerity was inevitable because Greece and other simply didn't have the money to test your theories. It's nothing imposed from the outside, if you have no money you have to save. A fact of life.
"If the German funding for Greece stops then German banks will fold – and then the scale of the real bail needed for German banking will devastate the German taxpayer and the German saver."
Greece has already had the biggest default in history. Greece is not the problem for German banks.
"Let's be clear here – Greece has reduced its budget deficit by 7% in three years. That is ten times greater than the austerity achieved by Germany in the mid 2000's."
Totally pointless and misleading comparison. Germany had not a 15% deficit!
To arrive at a Greek level of deficit after cutting it by 7%, Germany could still have INCREASED their deficit by several percent.
"you EVER known a European capital to have its streets emptied for a brief visit by another European head of government?"
The only place where they do this now is in North Korea.
correction exclusively for sanmartinian
To arrive at a Greek level of deficit after cutting it by 7 PERCENTAGE POINTS, Germany could still have INCREASED their deficit by several PERCENTAGE POINTS.
You keep asking me what the general attitude in Germany is with regard of the Euro. There is not an easy politically correct answer to this question.
Well, that depends on the timeíng and the mood. When the "average" German visits Italy or Spain or France he or she (hereafter he) is delighted about the fact that he does not have to change money and pay a fat commission to the money changers. When he goes to the UK and is faced with these adversities, you will hear him swearing quietly under his breath. This hereafter should be considered as the main motivator for his attitude towards the Euro.
The same "average" German is also usually too busy to keep himself abreast of what is going on in the world. He will look at the 8pm news on TV and that will be his intake of the political and economic situation of the world on average. We are talking about perhaps 80% of the population.
If you ask him, the "average" German of voting age whether he is pro or against the Euro he will not hesitate to say "Pro" for what reason does he have to be anti?
Ask him the same question after he has just seen some newspaper reports with pictures of Greeks calling the Germans Nazis, showing Frau Merkel in SS uniform goose stepping and being told that Greeks retire at 55 after working for 15 years with a pension of 3000€ and he, the "average" German will want to go back to the DM.
So it is all a matter of timing and mood and, therefore, I am one of those people who do not believe in asking the "average" German or French or Brit or Italian or Spaniard anything that could have serious repercussions on the direction the country takes and am quite happy that such decisions are left to the democratically elected representatives of the people who are supposed to have the time, knowledge, experience and responsibility to do just that, make decisions on behalf of the "average" voter who does not have the leisure of thinking deeply about what he ought to vote for.
But if you insist on an answer I would say that 80% of Germans in a sober mood would today tell you that they think the Euro is a good thing for the country, as the crisis has not really yet touched Germany in too negative a way.
I don't know if that satisfies you. Perhaps Enlisted can also give you his view of how he thinks the "average" German feels.
Now what then about the "non-average" Germans, the ones who, like myself and Enlisted keep themselves informed, people with professional, academic background who read the International Press and discuss things with their peers of equally non-average Germans. Here I believe that perhaps half will be against the Euro and the other half, like me, Pro and they will have heated discussions about it on occasion.
Satisfied? Probably not but not wanting to write a book about it and relying on your intuition, I believe you will get my gist.
Perhaps having avoided to answer this question is due to being afraid to be labelled as undemocratic, as I might have been tempted to spout "the average German is too f*****g uninformed, uninterested, lazy or downright stupid to be able to make these kind of far reaching decisions" and the same for other nationalities. Bring back Plato and let wise men rule!"
I am glad I suppressed this reply :-)
I like the time machine allegory. I would also like to go back but introduce the Euro with far more strings attached, one of them being that new applicants like the Greeks would have to be screened very closely for perhaps 10 years before being voted in or out.
I would then go back another 15000 years with some weapons of mass destruction and eliminate the Morlocks and release the Eloi from their bonds :-)
The only tax payer who will be paying for greece are EZ ones like the germans
pump pumpy as you said you are no economist you really can say that again
lol,By way as to the CDS you say German, French, Swiss banks no there one
with most exposure and have written the CDS contracts plus loan exposure,But
there again two french banks have sold there greek operations off and are
walking away with about combined losses of over 12Bn euros,If i was you pumpy
i would stick to the cooking there good manchild
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Listen, yoru no chocho. You really are a capital bore without proper manners and no entertainment value. A killjoy to any civilized blog. You may no (sic) a thing or two about how to screw pension holders out of their lives' savings by shorting currencies but when you tried to short the Euro lately
you got a bleeding nose and probably were fired, so now on the dole you show up here where you are neither wanted nor appreciated, you tiresome troll with a really round face :-))) YAWAIN!
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Every thing zorbas writes IS funny, whereas everything you write is showing you up for the mirthless, sour brained low life form you are. A carbuncle on polite society. Do us all a favour and learn some proper manners together with some proper English and then come back, cap in hand,and tell us a joke.
Might tell the bouncer to let you in despite your really round face :-))
@ Pumpernickle:
"LV, Josh and Enlisted would prefer a split into a North Euro and South Euro."
I would have been in favor of STARTING the euro with a smaller, more homogenous group around the German-French-BeNeLux core, and then enlarge it over time by countries that were not ready for euro membership at the time (and aren't yet now) - and yes, that is essentially the South (Italy/Spain/Portugal/Greece/Cyprus).
Now that we have it, unravelling the euro would maybe be too risky an operation, even though a temporary exit, accompanied by reforms, would make things easier for some countries.
For Greece, I frankly think that'd be the only viable alternative. But the Greeks seem to know themselves well enough to realize that they would never tackle the slightest reform if it weren't for MASSIVE pressure from its euro zone peers. And that's why they are clinging on. (It's also why deep down they just LOVE Angela Merkel. Masochists!)
@ Forlana, Tomas (if you read this): Will answer after the weekend.
@ Pumpernickle:
"I should wuish to remind Josh, LV and Enlisted about the wider implications of Germany and the other countries going back to their currencies"
I NEVER argued in favor of a return to national currencies. Where did you get that idea from?
"I NEVER argued in favor of a return to national currencies. Where did you get that idea from?"
I know, I know. Relax.
Just testing your Eurobot credentials :-)
Did you also cry, Josh, when hearing about the Nobel Prize for Peace being granted to the European Union?
Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of countries.
Frau Merkel also is very happy. Barroso got a big bunch of flowers. Steinbrück also very happy.
Everybody, except Dirtlick, of course, very, very happy.
Whoever thought that anonymous blogging would shield against harassment and peer group presssure has never experienced just how much fun a debate is when you very identity is constantly questioned;-).
And on that note. I'm trying to kick the habit. (So far, to no avail, as you can see.)
Don't fight it, Josh. Close your eyes and think of England :-)
I'll take the Nobel committee serious again when it'll award the Nobel for peace to George Bush Sr. and to Helmut Kohl, and be it posthumously.
But a committee composed by a majority of Scandinavian socialdemocratic ex-politicians apparently considers the notions of "conservative" and "peace" to be incompatible.
Bye now.
Now, that'll do! LOL
Really will the Belgium wine waiter be collecting it or the former PM of a 2nd rate country or has Germany demanded that merkel go and get it from little oslo.
You are not wrong. And yet, and yet and yet...
(Well, to begin with, if we "went back" to anything it would not be the by-now discredited Lira, but rather Florins or Ducats - medieval Italy had other currencies.)
1) I am not convinced the multiplier is the same for all countries or for all types of government spending.
What multiplier is there on our excessive pension spending - currently at 16.6% of gdp? The excess pensions are either squirreled away literally under the mattress (increasingly) or used to support children and grandchildren - who often need a swift kick in the rear. Although, let us admit that grandparents represent Italy's real "social shock absorber" given the dysfunctionality/unavailability of State services.
2) The UK is spending a lot more than Italy and I do not see such a large difference in our growth rates - last year, the final count was 0.4% faster growth in the UK for 4% extra deficit spending.
3) If the Euro does not guarantee us lower interest rates, then a major advantage of the unified currency is lost; that situation has existed for about 18 months now, but I do not see it as a permanent condition. The achievement of an honest-to-goodness surplus next year (instead of a 1.5% deficit) would produce sharply dropping bond yields.
4) The Lira's inflation rate was not all deserved - in the sense that much of it at a certain point was due to expectations deriving from an acquired negative history. Even without excessively restrictive German-inspired rules at the ECB, by simply abandoning the Lira we have reduced inflationary pressures within the peninsula. Going back to a national currency now might lay the basis for much higher inflation in the future (I mean 8%-9%). Let's not forget that both the UK and Italy topped out at around 25% inflation in the late 70's. We really prefer not to repeat that experience here. I admit that is a political-historical consideration and not an economic one.
5) I repeat, the deficit tail is not neverending. We are not that far from a surplus. And there are still some sacred (or profane) cows that need to be gored: pensions (half a million pensioners here receive 3,000-90,000 Euros monthly), the pay and expenses of politicians, salaries of public managers, the expense structure of Regional (and not Provincial) Administrations.
The German-speaking minority of Bolzano(Bozen) complain about cuts in their benefits or tax relief, but the President of Bolzano Province (pop. 500,000) receives 28,000 per month, and the Vice-President 26,000, while Angela Merkel receives 25,000 Euros...
6) Our exports are still growing, our trade balance has swung from a deficit equal to 4% of gdp in 2010, to a surplus probably around 1% of gdp this year. (And, we now have a trade surplus with Germany - TAKE THAT YOU SCALLYWAGS!!) Unlike some other European countries, yes we can export our way out of this mess (as long as American trade deficits continue...) Let's not forget that Marchionne has not yet exported a single Italian-made auto to the US.
"LV, Josh and Enlisted would prefer a split into a North Euro and South Euro."
There's the rub. Josh thinks Italy, Spain et al. would have been "ready" for the Euro when the population either learnt to speak German or converted to Lutheranism. Which is to say: Never.
It was ideas like these that kept Poland and the Czech Republic out of the European Union for 15 years after the fall of Communism: which was really 5-10 years longer than was necessary in their cases and has left not a small bit of resentment floating around Central Europe.
Finally, let's say you are right in your argumentation.
(Not because I believe so, but because as an Italian, I believe in mental flexibility...)
In that case, under no circumstance should Italy accept the historical burden of provoking the failure of the Euro-project. Let somebody else do that...
We do not have to run faster than the lion, we just have to run faster than the others trying to escape the lion.
Besides, never underestimate the fundamental, underlying Italian support for a federal, unified Europe. Even despite what Italians say to the pollsters in a fit of temporary anger. We basically see ourselves as the guardians of European unity. That is an absolutely religious (or as the case might be, anti-religious) commitment.
Remember, Guelphs dream of uniting the continent under the Pope. Ghibellines dream of uniting Italy to the continent to contrast Papal temporal power. Both sides of our subterranean, millenial civil war support a federal Europe for diametrically-opposed reasons.
@ Pumpernickel
Well, that seems a fair and honest answer with which I have no quarrel.I've even given you a recommend, so how about that?
Am still somewhat intrigued at the way you 'change your money' when you go to the UK. I should have thought with your contacts there you would have a bank account, but even if you don't, why not just draw one large amount from an ATM? Any left over would be used on future visits. Do you not have that sort of international card, which is now practically indispenasable for travelling?
I don't know anyone who actually hands over currency in exchange for another at these 'Bureaux de Change'. They're a rip-off as you say.
I actually have a bank account in the UK and a card to go with it with BOS which now is, I don't know what, it changes every few months, perhaps Santander after they walked away from the RBS deal? Anyway, it is not about me but the average punter and even if you use ATMs with a non-British card the rates are prohibitive if not fraudulent and you pay a flat rate commission on top, same as changing at Ahmed's boot at Gatwick. Rip-off all round.
It is true that the scale of the Greek blowout and particularly the deliberate deception that preceded it is a grievous indictment of Greek governance (the same party responsible for the cover up are now back in power).
It is also true that the German blowout in 2002 – 2007 was not of this magnitude. But the EU policy consequences that flowed from the German blowout were also very different. The required austerity imposed by solemn treaty and the fines for persistent breach were completely blown away by Germany in '05. Both the Maastricht debt and deficit rules and the treaty prescribed penalties were completely overruled at German insistence.
Bear in mind that Ireland and Spain never violated the debt and deficit at all prior to 2009 whereas Germany had violated them in 7 out 8 years of global economic boom.
It was therefore a perverse sight to see Merkel (author of the obtuse and destructive austerity that has destroyed Greece) standing side by side with Samaras (author of deliberate fraud in the Greek public accounts). Two completely discredited leaders leaning on one another for mutual support against the howling storm of righteous contempt directed at both of them from the streets of Athens.
Who says crime doesn't pay?.......
You may want Italy to be a different sort of country with a different sort of economy. "Europe" and particularly the euro may stand as proxy for this ambition. But you need to start from where you are and not leap blindly into some artificial place. The euro cannot remake Italy in the economic image of, say, Germany any more than a Brussels decision to make German the language of the EU could make Italians stop speaking Italian and start speaking German.
If Italian competiveness and productivities are the issue the euro is not the answer. You certainly need to fix perverse incentives in your labour market and reduce bureaucratic obstacles to business in order to improve your economic performance. But your benchmark is not productivity improvements against Germany – your benchmark is improvement against last year's Italian productivity. German productivity levels are completely detached and therefore completely meaningless to Italian realities, Italian workers and Italian businesses. What matters to them is whether they have improved their own productivity year on year. The euro is therefore a fictional and arbitrary benchmark imposed as a burden on real activity. It is an external standard which has no application to Italian output, productivities or employment. Like the gold standard it operates as a machine for eternal economic policy repression and it particularly punishes output and employment and it subsidises non-productive savings over investment. That is a wealth and welfare destroying combo.
As the IMF reported this week: - in the 1930's after returning to the gold standard and cutting spending the UK government posted a primary government surplus year after year (7% on average) with the consequence that output and GDP continued falling. But (after interest) UK sovereign debt continued to rise along with unemployment and social destitution. This was therefore a comprehensive economic policy failure by every single metric - including the metric of fiscal responsibility and of debt reduction targets. The euro is now performing this function of permanent repression Europe wide. The UK's recovery after abandoning gold (it took a mutiny by the Royal Navy to overturn the destructive orthodoxies of the BoE) was the strongest of any of the rich economies. We enjoyed precisely the same sort of economic improvement when we left the equally artificial ERM (as did Italy).
Italy's currency needs to respond to and reflect Italy's economy - full stop. By definition the euro can never do that .
The euro is Italy's economic nightmare it is not her ideal. The longer you stay in the more irreversible will be the damage to Italian economic capacity. It is time to put away childish things Joe – conspiracy bogey man (Vatican, Masons, Anglo's, Jews) and euro fantasies of salvation alike - all need to be subjected to a ruthless, rigorous and evidence based rethink …….
Do you know the Cretan parable Maher?
A young boy and an older man are sitting at a Kafeneo sharing refreshments. The boy says to the man: See that bicycle over there. I'm going to steal it.
Man: So you know how to steal, eh?
Boy: Why of course!
Man: Do you know how to hide?
Boy: What difference does that make.
Man: Because if you only know how to steal, but you don't know how to hide, don't steal then. You'll get caught!
Samaras and Merkel know how to steal and hide. Let us hope they get to work on that much needed transfer union now, that Germany didn't want, and perhaps 50 years from now, at least the financial survivors of this ill planned currency union can look back and say it all worked out for Greece in the end.
One more time for posterity's sake enlisted: There is no such thing as a monetary union between economic inequals, without it also being some sort of a transfer union. The greater the economic inequality between the members, the greater the need for transfer.
The argument that you should not guarantee and support the debt of all member nations, because it would be inflationary for one member nations, is STRICT CONSTITUTIONAL INSANITY.
Luckily for the survival of Greece, Merkel knows it cannot continue. She probably just wanted to secure as much working capital as possible before changing course.
Was the German electorate actually fooled into believing that the original Treaty stood a chance of holding up against the onslaught of the predatory markets?
Well, too bad then. You know what the Greeks say: Ipa kai ksipa (Yes I promised, but I had to change my mind).
We were faced with the very real reality of global financial Armageddon here. Yes, it appears to have been averted, but just barely.
Way to close to total financial ruin for Greece, a member nation, to even talk about comfort here.
Here is what Germany would get from a transfer union. In a nutshell, continued revenues from consumption of her wonderful products. The alternative, is total financial Armageddon. In global macroeconomics enlisted, nobody gets to take the ball and run home a financial winner. The band must play on. Never mind the urge to balance the spreadsheets. They're never balanced. That's the beauty of it. You like gold? You're free to buy it and make a killing in the markets. There is a reason the gold standard was abandoned. Too many starving people. Merkel secured all the capital she could for Germany. Game, set, but not match. Time to build a stronger European Union through integration, and dare I dream, growth.
The Vatican is not a bogey man. It is a real organisation, hierarchical, well-organised and the oldest State apparatus in the world.
I visited my local auto dealer a few weeks back: where he once sold 35 FIATs a month, now he is selling 10 - and half of those to local clergy. That grates on all our nerves. They do not even pay taxes on their for-profit activities and Church insurance agencies boast that 20% of all real estate in Italy is in Church hands. How's that for tax evasion and lack of economic development?
1) No, the Euro was never about productivity for Italy - it was about ending the inflation plague and building Europe, both politically and in terms of a unified market. For too long the United States had exported its unemployment and inflation to Europe - and the unified currency is a shield against this dynamic. Which is why the US wishes to break the Euro - so they can go back to printing whatever they want to and exporting the inflation abroad.
2) The Italian productivity "crisis" is vastly exaggerated. If it were true, we would not be exporting so strongly, with enjoying surpluses with the US, the UK and Germany.
You can say anything with statistics, which are also lies. To wit:
1) Italy already had one of the highest productivity rates in the world 10 years ago.
2) Of course productivity has dropped during the crisis - our factories are working at less than 40% capacity until the European and world economy picks up.
3) We have kept unemployment low. We can increase productivity tomorrow by sacking 50% of the workers/employees. We prefer not to, as this would send homelessness, suicide and hunger shooting upwards. I do not want Italy to look like northern England. There is a national consensus around this trade-off. Even Marchionne has sworn he will not close another factory in Italy (but he has not yet even BEGUN to export Italian-made vehicles to North America through Chrysler. That is a 17-million-vehicle market - and there is room for 100,000 cars that would be enough to save all our five auto factories). In the meantime, our eight shipyards are surviving even as European shipbuilding is being decimated by Asian competition. We need to keep those facilities alive until better times - and in a few years, we will be Europe's biggest shipbuilder. The story is the same across many sectors.
3) Productivity is also measured by output, which is measured by sale price. Sale prices are being decimated by the international crisis and intensified competition. Italian machine tool producers (like the Germans and the Austrians) never cut their prices by 40% in the past, but they are doing so now, as orders are down and they need to keep the factories open. Productivity will rise automatically when the economy picks up.
4) I think it is impossible for astronomically-high petrol prices (now over USD 10 per US gallon in Italy) not to have a negative effect on productivity. The high petrol prices are provoking a partial breakdown of the national economy into smaller regional economies.
5) It is not the Euro that is our nightmare - it is the German-inspired rules that have forced the ECB into pro-cyclical policies. Draghi is struggling to remedy that problem and he has powerful support both in and out of the EZ.
6) Look - I do not appreciate Josh's tones. And I write to correct the more ridiculous exaggerations against the Italian economy.
But, there is no doubt that Berlusconi has provoked the disaster in Italy over the last ten years. I spent 12 local party Congresses in 2007 railing against the "Democratic Party" Operation that I insisted would mean the suicide of the Centre-Left and Prodi's government, hand Italy back to Silvio and provoke disasters of biblical proportions in Italy, the Euro-zone and around the world. (Let's say my dire tones were not well received - and the party leadership from Rome moved to quash my dissent).
Romano Prodi's Olive Tree coalition and Socialist Prime Minister Giulio Amato left Mr. Berlusconi with a debt load of 105% and a deficit of 1.6% in 2002. We are paying today not just for Silvio's mismanagement of 2008-2011, but also for his disastrous financial management of 2001-2006.
Every time our debt heads south of 100% of gdp and our deficitd heads toward a surplus, powerful forces intervene behind the scenes in Rome to provoke the downfall of the government and return to "business as usual" (deficit spending).
Take the prosciutto (ham) off your eyes, Maher. Keeping the Civil State weak, divided and permanently on the edge of bankruptcy is part of a centuries-old Vatican policy in the peninsula. Our finances cannot be consolidated until Vatican influence is removed from Italian politics. That is why it is always the Left that reduces debt and deficits and always the Right that expands spending in this country.
We would have benefited from the Euro in these years, if Silvio had ever sought to respect the Maastricht criteria.
Folks, no matter who wins the elections we can be sure of one thing - Josh will claim to have met him.
Poor Joshie always bumping into famous people - Clinton, Merkel's hubby.
Must be his Green Beret training.
A commercial jet en route from Russia to Syria was forced to land in Turkey yesterday as it crossed that country's air space. Military hardware found on the jet was impounded.
Putin signalled his displeasure with this legitimate and justified Turkish assertion of sovereign rights by cancelling a scheduled visit to Turkey.
By using Turkey as a conduit to send large quantities of troops and materiel into Syria, Russia and Iran are assuring Turkey, through no fault of it own, will be drawn into the Syrian conflict. Turkey must cope with a large influx of refugees crossing its border and almost daily border incidents.
If the Ukraine became destabilized, causing tens of thousands of refugees to pour into Poland, and cross-border attacks killed innocent Poles, and Ukranian pro- and anti- government forces used Poland as a base, while combattants used Poland as a conduit for arms and men transshipment, and Poland felt threatened and unable to control these events, would Poland seek assistance from its NATO allies? You're damned right they would.
The fact is that Turkey is a European nation and Syria is on the border of Turkey. Therefore Syria is on the border of a European, NATO nation. Those geography masters that assert that Syria is not on the border of a European nation need to take a high colonic.
It is a metaphysical certainty that certain particular NATO partners will shirk their obligations under NATO toward Turkey. However, it is vital to the future security of Europe, that Turkey not perceive NATO as comprised entirely of slinking two-faced backstabbers. Therefore, the US, France, the UK and a few others will answer Turkey's call.
This is simply another example, if one were needed, of the self-centered, selfish, myopic European behavior, the hallmark of which has been through the ages the ability to kill in large numbers and watch impassively as others did the same.
Syria is continental Europe's problem.
As you noted Syrian Turkish clashes affect Europe because Turkey borders European countries like Greece.
For once let the continental Europeans take care of their own problems.
Over 60 years of American protection has bred generations of spoilt continental Europeans who think the USA exists for their benefit.
When the Syrian-Turkish conflict spills over and affects the continent, the spoilt continentals like Joe Solaris will be demanding that American taxpayers should foot the bill to solve Europe's problems and American boys bleed and die for Europe while European boys sit confortably on their couches watching the show.
I am not demanding anything of American taxpayers. I was merely pointing out that America is a much closer ally of Israel than Europe is and that America is the founder of NATO.
If you think America can bow out from NATO/Turkish obligations, then you are demonstrating your usual vastly naive ideas about the conduct of American power.
America is an empire, Sherry. The Republicans have won the White House too often in the past because they accept this - the Democrats are forever perceived as weak because they rebel against this (as well they should).
Link below, must read well written article exposing how the recent discoveries of gas in the Middle East and the proposed pipeline routes to funnel it to Europe are at the heart of the Syria conflict.
The Muslim Brotherhood, Qatar, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, the US, Russia, UK, France and China all are discussed and intimately affected by who wins and loses.
If the scenario painted by the author is true, escalation of the conflict will continue indefinitely. The fuse of WW III could already be lit.
Aesop may have written a fable about it. It's the story of a man who manages to get a lion into a grip whereby the lion is powerless to injure the man, but the man can't let go of the lion because if he does the lion would then kill him.
So the hyperpower maintains its grip on the perennial efforts of nation against nation which, left unchecked, threaten to plunge the world into ever more destructive wars, wars that eventually could destroy our planet.
Would you have Atlas walk away from his exertions? The Democrats of Kennedy's time were willing to continue the struggle for world stability- call it empire, call it dominance if you like.
Today the Democrats, intent on creating a larger constituency, are hell-bent on destoying the US military in favor of creating ever more morally corrosive benefits. They don't even have to succeed for their efforts to cause calamity. Perceived weakness is often all it takes for a would-be hegemon to make a miscalculation, reasoning that the declining superpower is vulnerable.
We can't let go of the lion, Joe.
You need to keep up with the news, things have changed considerably in America.
Both the republicans and democrats were against getting involved in Libya.
Do keep up with the news regarding Israel.
The reason Israel exists today is because of the holocaust.
And who is reponsible for the holocaust? Yup it is Europe that has a moral obligation to come to Israel's defense, not martians, not Mexicans, not Americans.
Take responsibility for your moral obligations instead of trying to dump them on someone else's lap.
to leaveittoviva (whom I mostly read with pleasure), emmawhatever (whom I only read when my attention is forcibly drawn to it) and a few other Americans who only occasionally, now, write here.
Very often, mostly writers from less developed civilizations, attack America here.
I do my best to defend American values I admire and the USA I love.
Occasionally European posters criticize the USA in strong terms.
It's their right although I feel they only have the right to do so in matters external to the USA. How Americans conduct their internal politics is Americans' own affair.
Yet I don't remember any non-American giving unsolicited advise on how America should conduct her policy, mainly internal one.
When I read you and a couple of other American poster (fortunately most gone now) the majority of posts is about how Europe should conduct its own affairs.
Aren't you a bit embarrassed by your obsession?
Viva, a clearly well intentioned poster one understands; but the ridiculous obsession of others to keep chiding or badmouthing, particularly with completely ignorant remarks, non-USA countries makes me feel ashamed for the generality of Americans I so much love and you so much misrepresent.
Please change your ways. You'll feel everybody will respect America far more, as the USA used to be respected in the 50's to 80's or even 90's.
At least do it as a favour to me: I feel more than a little embarrassed for you when you start in your teaching mode to Europe.
It's like a strong and physically fit youth of no great knowledge trying to teach philosophy to an almost retired University professor.
I repeat: it is embarrassing to see you go through that humiliating experience.
The worst being that you do not even understand it humiliates you.
You make a good point. But that is a terrible position to be in - that creates bankruptcy at home in the US.
I don't think the Dems want to destroy the US military - but is over 700 billion a year sustainable, given the federal debt load?
I think (I may be wrong) that Obama will win in the end - and there will be within a year higher petrol taxes and a spending review of US bases abroad.
Defending America, even if it means maintaining an 11-carrier navy, is necessary and sustainable. Maintaining over 800 US military bases abroad is not.
Within that context, clearly Europe is going to have to boost defence spending - even if nobody can afford it at the moment. Plus, Europe is handicapped by the fact that its two largest defence spenders have no interest in building a trans-European defence.
The UK under the Tories would rather integrate with the US than the continent; Germany would rather export arms but contribute nothing to military operations abroad. That means European defence efforts have to be organised by the Latins - France, Italy and Spain. And the three of us are in no position to boost military spending at the moment.
Italy is spending 30 billion - Admiral Di Paola has agreed to accept cuts of 800 million this year to contribute to budget stabilisation - but objectively, given American Pull-back, this needs to increase by 5 billion. Not going to happen this year and not the next. Let's cross our fingers, maybe in 2014, if the Euro-crisis ends soon.
I think that if Obama is telling Turkey and Israel to wait until after American elections for military operations, Europe is probably also saying "wait until the next fiscal year for us..."
Whatever happens with the elections in November, we all have big changes coming in December and January...
You convince me that you probably represent adequately down-home, uninformed American opinion in the centre of the country.
However, you strike me as woefully ignorant of Washington politics, where I studied and lived for 10 years.
I am not at all "dumping moral obligations on America's lap". I was merely pointing out that you understand nothing of Washington DC politics if you think the American foreign policy and defence community can ignore Israeli geostrategic priorities.
Rightly or wrongly, most of Europe has been ignoring Israeli strategic priorities for decades. Washington has not been able to since the 1960's.
Also, Europe, the European Union, (unlike the United Kingdom) does not aspire to becoming a World Power, Great Power, Superpower, or whatever else. The Germans in particular are very allergic to the idea; the idea does not even register on the radar of the smaller countries.
The United States IS a world power, has been a world power since 1898, and very clearly has no intention of ceasing to be a world power. AND NO WORLD POWER CAN AFFORD NOT TO HAVE A FOOT-HOLD IN THE HOLY LAND. That has been the reality of international politics over the last 1000 years.
Personally, I agree with the thrust of your arguments, if not the tone. "Europe" has some responsibilities it should be assuming - and in any case, will soon find itself without the American umbrella, leaving little choice. And, given that I am an Italian, one of the European countries most tied historically to the Holy Land, I believe we should be involved there. However, almost anywhere on the continent outside of France, that is a hard sell, particularly in 2012.
BTW, despite all our financial troubles, we have purchased a number of brand new F35's this year (Italy should be the first or second country to actually take delivery of the new fighters) and we are laying down two new LHD's which are a sort of Light Aircraft Carrier. We have also laid down a second 800-million-euro super-modern destroyer while the first one will be finishing sea-trials that have lasted over a year within a matter of months. So we are fighting to keep the new armaments coming down the dock, so to speak.
"The United States IS a world power, has been a world power since 1898,"
You need to brush up on your history. The US has been an econmic power since 1898 but it was a pygmy in world affairs due its own self imposed isolation from European affairs till 1945.
Remember the US withdrew into isolationism after WW1.
And it can do it again if it wants to, no matter how much you howl and scream because whether you like it or not, the US is geographically isolated and protected by two vast oceans from the hotspots of the world - middle-east, North Africa, Russia, Turkey, dysfunctional former Soviet Asian republics etc.
And guess who lives close to these hotspot? Europe.
As for Israel, the only part of the world that has a moral obligation to Israel is Europe. So take responsiblity for your moral obligation instead of trying to dump it on America's lap.
"Remember the US withdrew into isolationism after WW1."
Tell that to: the Phillippines, Cuba, Guam, Puerto Rico, Panama, Alaska and Hawaii (not "internal" states at the time, but colonies), American Samoa, Swains Island, Midway, the Corn Islands, Nicaragua (occupied by the US from 1912-1933), Haiti (occupied by the US from 1915-1934), Dominican Republic (occupied by the US from 1916-1924)... there is quite a long list of American occupations and interventions abroad during the "Period of Isolationism".
That was a result of kicking Spain out of the New World and had more to do with the US being able to control events in its OWN neighborhood.
You cannot erase the fact that the US withdrew from European affairs and had self imposed isolationism from world affairs after ww1.
That was a result of kicking Spain out of the New World and had more to do with the US being able to control events in its OWN neighborhood.
You cannot erase the fact that the US withdrew from European affairs and had self imposed isolationism from world affairs after ww1.
Now that the IMF has publicly blasted in Tokyo the Eurozone for not accelerating central financial management and pointed out that the worst debts in the financial system are Britain's and Japan's, can we expect a little more sense from the Economist writers and posters?
I'm not a great enthusiast of IMF pronouncements: it took them a couple of years to state the obvious.
The two largest and most dangerous indebtednesses are the largest island nations economies and everybody with a little knowledge has known that for years. Even the Economist has published those data a long time ago.
The Euro debt crisis was dangerous too because an eventual hasty disappearance of the Euro would destroy the City's (and, with much less force, the American) forex markets.
That would create a much greater havoc than the CDO fiasco in 2007.
But the so-called Euro debt crisis was as much the result of profligacy as of a speculating attack.
Profligacy is being dealt with (it is almost surely a bit overdone) and speculators lost their little "war" in March 2011.
So now, independently of our political tastes and preferences, the cure for the most important financial woes are technical, not political.
Technical matters are better dealt with by professionals not heated writers of one side or the other.
So my plea.
To The Economist writers, mostly Charlemagne: forget little manoeuvres pro or against whatever side; forget the tendency to create divisions in others, the worst of Charlemagne's vices.
Just discuss techniques.
To posters here and elsewhere: please forget your little hates and pet theories and confine your opinions to what you do know as strictly factual.
We are at too a dangerous time for hot heated arguments. Just cool as ice reasoning.
This is not a plea for anyone to change sides or to shut up; I'd never do that.
It would be against all my principles and, worse, it is against obtaining good practical purposes.
It's just a plea for, whatever our opinions, recognize only full hard facts and start from there. Cold words, cool reasoning. Money is allergic to emotions.
The IMF, as I said above, took a pair of years to recognize facts known to anyone who follows reliable stats; if there is any worthy championship now (you know I'm not a great fan of them) is to show the IMF we are quicker than them.
After all what the IMF did say yesterday in Tokyo has been written here for many, many months.
To end with a bit of always welcome humour: I know that like St. Anthony of Padua I'm preaching to fishes.
I'm sure nobody will pay any attention.
Pity ; we might still be lucky enough to avoid disaster.
UK has debt not due for several years, EZ has 4.5 Trillion due this year.
Sorry, but the markets see the truth, EZ is toast. Let a Brit put some marmalade on it for you and call it tea time.
DSK was removed from IMF for good reasons
Yes the reason was to put Lagarde in charge so that the IMF could be used as the EU's personal piggy bank with never ending eurozone bailouts.
Making the rest of the world pay for the EU's stupidity in creating this deeply flawed one size fits all currency - euro.
DSK was too independent to be used as an EU stooge.
No Largarde is a good pupil, she is doing what her Masters in Washington and in WS are telling her to do
Please don't make us laugh.
Lagarde was a cabinet minister in Sarkozy's government.
Her master was and is the French government.
for a couple of years, but a american lawer and a head of a office of lawers, in Chicago, since her twenties
Lagarde is French, not American.
so what? she isn't the first French that works in the US
check in Washington, WS is full of foreigners, among them some french traders, lawers...
Yes, and these foreigners don't stop being foreigners once they start working in the US, they remain French and are loyal to France.
Lagarde is a dupe that knows more about tanning salons and high fashion than anything the IMF is doing.
She doesn't need to know about finance. She is a place filler. Probably DSK knew where too many of the bodies are buried and had to be removed.
Lagarde's influence is about as much as a bug that flies through the frame as a picture is being taken.
The IMF is a blackjack that the big powers use on the small ones rather having to expose their own direct participation.
In other words Lagarde is the perfect EU stooge.
She apparently promised the Chinese & Indians more seats and influence on the IMF board in exchange for their support of her candidancy to became IMF chief.
God knows what other secret deals were cut to get this EU stooge to head the IMF.
Do you recall when France suppported Brazil's bid to host the olympics? Shortly after France voted for Brazil, the government of Brazil awarded a big military contract to a French company. Obviously some deal was cut - France's yes vote in exchange for military contracts for French companies.
yeah, happy like Odysseus in his attic
"She" is what Washington told her
Brazil din't need a french vote for the OG, besides that will be more fun to watch hem from Rio than from Chicago
oh the Brazil arms contracts are much more favorable to american corporations
wanna a check?
stoopid writes as stoopid is !
There is a perception at the moment that being part of the EZ makes countries vulnerable to fiscsal trouble and speculative attacks.
I have no trouble to imagine this could change quickly.
What if (the herd of) investors start pulling money out of the pound?
The pound devalues, inflation soars, the government will not be able to raise the money for their 100+ bn deficit.
If the BoE starts printing then hyperinflation is not inconceivable, cutting a 100+ bn deficit instantly will be almost impossible.
There will be no ECB bazooka option, no bailouts available for the UK.
We're in calm and prosperous times in northern Europe, and yet the UK runs an enormous deficit with no growth, the central bank is printing and they had riots last year.
There's not much room for bad surprises.
Intellectually, I bow to your wisdom.
In my gut though, it is hard to resist the temptation to defend my country from the more ridiculous attacks of hostile idiots.
Of course, that does not stop me from complaining about our politicians 12 hours a day ;-) in my hometown.
You seem to be ignorant of the fact that the Pound sterling came under attack by speculators in the 1990's and its value nose-dived but surpise that didn't plunge Britain into an hell hole.
Because Britain still controls its currency. And IMF bailouts are there for Britain also . In fact Britain applied for and got IMF bailouts when the pound came under attack back in the 1990's.
Did you think the IMF exists only for the benefit of continental Europeans?
The reason Britain's debts don't matter as much as the eurozone's debt is because Britain has longer period of time to pay back the debts.
And as for northern Europe, Germany's deficits are skyrocketing and in fact Germany's debt to GDP ratio is higher than Spain.
No you are not calm and prosperous in Germany, you are heavily indebted too.
First of all UK has maintained fiscal discipline since new government taken over and use of QE has shown that it works, Further more UK is the EZ single largest export market,As to northern Europe maintaining calm prosperous times i wounder what planet you live on as most countries are running high and ever increasing GND and deflects them selfs and are in negative growth i think you should look at france as a good example and france over the next twelve month will be hitting high unemployment and company shut downs and by the way ever increasing unemployment is over 10% it will hit 11.5 by Q4 2013 in France at moment the UK is 8.1.As to bazooka the UK can keep printing money and is able to internally self fund unlike many EZ countries apart from the Netherlands,Also UK has seen a increase in aggregate demand of liquid from the EZ as its seen as save heaven.As to the riots please get your facts right it was not caused by economics crises it was caused by some gangster who was shot by the police.By way the way there will not be any bail outs for Italy if it needs a bail out by the EZ because the EZ can not afford to bail her out after Spain finally has to be bail out,If you think northern europe is fiscally save you are very mistaken when germany hits no growth and a PMI bellow 50% this coming December with Q4.Every one in europe is in this together no matter what country every one is from so i think your comments are just breathless and ignorant to say the least
T%he UK never applied for IMF bail outs after black Wednesday it simply devalued the £ by 15% and never looked back,
"Tt was not caused by economics crises it was caused by some gangster who was shot by the police."
sorry, that, that in France
in UK it started as a students strikes because their Universities fees increased
stop smoking
to leaveittoviva
UK has debt not due for several years
As I've often made the point here, the only great virtue of Britain's external accounts is their maturity.
UK had an "intelligently guessed" average maturity of external debt of 7 years (maximum 14) in 2008/9. How much is it now?
Besides, two totally different sources (one I don't much trust) seem to indicate Britain's external assets are some one third lower than its external liabilities).
Worse, whilst all countries undergoing severe austerity have seen their trade and external transactions balances improving dramatically, Britain is the only exception and getting worse by the month.
all friends of Britain have the duty to worry and draw attention to dangers.
I hope you are right though; the IMF, Reuters and others of smaller gun power as I are wrong.
I always prefer to be happy than right.
Sorry, but the markets see the truth...
Do the markets see the truth now as well as they did on 29th October 1929, in 1980, in 2002 with CDO's, with Facebook recently just to mention those that have just come to my mind in one minute?
... EZ is toast. Let a Brit put some marmalade on it for you and call it tea time.
May be the Euro is toast. Not being really unBrit I'll put toast on it myself.
There is a problem though. You would wish EZ to be toast.
I couldn't care less.
Money is totally allergic to wishful thinking so the odds are I might be righter than you.
The future will tell, but if the Euro goes, the shock waves will be far stronger in the UK than elsewhere; not having lived there for sometime I feel selfishly not much concerned.
By the way Charlotte will be hard hit too. It's closer to where you live than I but I don't want to frighten you.
to BadweatherforKermit on DSK having been removed for good reasons.
You may be very right.
However, exactly the same trick was played by Hitler on Generals von Blomberg and von Fritsch, who were against the war and it was discovered only after defeat.
Rightly or wrongly this has made me always a bit suspicious of the whole affair.
Politics and high finance are really not for gentlemen.
Nor ladies.
to Milovan on defending his country from ridiculous attacks.
Oh!Never bother about ridiculous attacks when Italy has the second highest ratio of gold reserves to foreign debt in the world.
The way this is going, in not a very long time currencies won't be worth the electronic impulses they are made of and only gold, hidden treasures or hidden real financial talent will be worth anything.
Italy has those aplenty even if not in the places you prefer.
Neither the City nor the Wall Street betting talents will be any good, either in the times to come.
Far more important than that: Have you noticed I mentioned St Anthony of Padua, not Lisbon?
My Portuguese friends will grill me for that but what the hell! In times of need we need his protection badly so I'll start using both places to make sure he listens at least to one of the calls...
You are a lucky one: you only complain of politicians 12 hours a day. I complain 24 and find it's not enough!
to enlisted on herd of investors.
Regrettably, I'm fully with you.
The UK has two excellent weapons: the long debt maturity (that's getting much shorter, particularly since the hundred year bond idea flopped miserably) and a still enviable control over the English speaking press.
But, as you say, the herd instinct is much stronger and the English speaking press, particularly that owned in the Dominions, is showing some rebellious traits.
The IMF too has shown an unusual impatience and I've seen worse stampedes start with flimsier pretexts.
Much worse, of all countries being tormented with necessary but maybe a little overdone austerity measures, Britain is the only one with two negative traits:
1st As against what has happened in all other austerity sufferers, the UK trade and current transactions balance is getting worse by the month. Even Spain has improved both and quite a lot.
2nd One of the inevitable austerity by-products (this is standard economics textbook) is a productivity revolution. In other words, austerity may make GDP fall. But GDP fall is pro rata smaller than employment decrease meaning each worker produces more.
In Britain the opposite is happening: GDP is falling faster (or growing more slowly as possibly will happen in Q3) than employment. In other words productivity is slowing, exactly the same symptom Spain that suffered from, just before 2009.
Just a correction to your thoughts: the slump in Holland seems a bit worse than initially imagined but her external accounts like, other austerity sufferers, bar the UK, is improving. One worry less, thank God.
Denmark and much worse, Finland, are sneezing. Hope they don't catch flu too. They are small but generally much healthier than they look now.
On a literary side track. About herd mentality. Have you ever read Jean Giono, the superb French writer?
He describes in more than one book the well known sheep stampedes of his native Provence.
If my memory serves me well, it is in "Un de Beaumugnes" he describes it passionately. I'm sure there is a German translation; but if not there are several English ones. Do read it. It's beautiful and teaches us a lot.
Yes you are right. Britain didn't get the IMF loans in the 1990's but in 1976.
However Enlisted seems to think the only option for bailouts for Britain is the EU. He is ignorant of the fact the IMF was created precisely for this purpose to help any country in the world, not to be used as the EU's personal piggy bank by that French woman, Lagarde.
It is true that the UK has many problems especially a fiscal policy that is completely counterproductive (yes we too have an austerity zombie at the Exchequer).
"…the IMF report hinted strongly that at least two major economies were now caught in self-defeating debt spirals: Spain, where the debt trap is created by political pressures from the euro zone, and Britain, where the futile austerity is entirely self-imposed.
The British example is particularly striking. While the British government has implemented bigger tax increases and spending cuts than any other major economy apart from Spain (equivalent to 4.3 percent of GDP since 2009), it has suffered a double-dip recession, missed all its fiscal targets and seen its national debt nearly double from 46 percent to 84 percent of GDP since 2009. Meanwhile, the U.S., which started with a bigger deficit and debt than Britain in 2009 and has made very little effort to tighten fiscal policy since then, has seen its net national debt grow considerably more slowly, from 54 percent to 84 percent of GDP. The better U.S. fiscal performance, despite far less fiscal "effort," has been due entirely to faster economic growth."
It should be written in large friendly letters over the door of every European treasury: Contractionary policy imposed in a contracting economy is always and everywhere recessionary. Persistent austerity will always and everywhere turn a cyclical recession into a great depression.
As for your imaginary scenario:
In the current situation a fall in the pound would be growth positive for the UK not negative. A growth in inflation for an economy now operating 4% under capacity would also be growth positive for the UK. Growth reduces deficits (see above).
The Bond market is a monster – it has to secure a safe home for $44 trillion in global savings every year. It is the global market for long term debt – of which sovereign debt is the largest component. Except at the margins the bond market is not a speculative market because it cannot be – there is far too great a deadweight of money here for speculative shorting of targeted bonds to gain enough leverage to succeed. The Bond market currently has to invest ever growing volumes of savings in a sharply contracting pool of safe havens. In addition the Bond market understands what austerian policy makers do not – sustained growth is the only way in which long term debt can be redeemed. They are selling on austerity (Greece, Spain and Italy) and buying on growth and growth stimulation (Japan, US, Germany, UK, Sweden).
The abandonment of peripheral eurozone bonds is not therefore a speculative attack by a few hedge funds (or other anglo/ Jewish/ Bildeberg "locusts" ) – it reflects the growing view of the whole bond market that these assets are far riskier than they had formerly believed them to be.
In particular the UK has three factors supporting it
1. The UK issues its own currency and it manages its own fiscal policy. The Pound is backed by a unitary fiscal policy and unitary treasury which automatically distributes tax spending to those regions and groups in the UK which are suffering from recession. Also in the final analysis the BoE can buy as much debt as the treasury decide to issue. It is therefore impossible for the UK to go bankrupt in the way it is now possible for Spain to go bankrupt. Hyperinflation is not even theoretically possible when overall money supply (M4) is contracting, the economy is operating at 4% (of GDP) below its capacity and there is falling demand and output.
2. 70% of UK gilts are held domestically. There is insufficient leverage in the Gilt market for foreign speculators to short UK bonds.
3. The redemption period on UK Gilts is the longest anywhere. In any one year the amount of gilts which mature is therefore far lower than for any other economy. The immediate pressure new debt funding can impose on the UK government is therefore far smaller than elsewhere.
But the biggest difference between the UK and Spain etc. is that in the eurozone we have 17 different economies with 17 different operating conditions. These countries cannot successfully share the same policy because their economies are divergent and that divergence is growing. The British are not using somebody else's currency and they do not have to try and manage this huge crisis under the additional burden of somebody else's policy.
The German belief that these peripheral economies can all be bulldozed flat and then reconstituted (over many years of gruelling destitution and struggle) into an image of the German economy makes two category errors. First the Germans do not understand the profound failure of their own economic model (e.g. the slowest trend growth rates and the most stagnant living standards in the OECD) and second the Germans do not understand the differing competitive advantages offered by the other eurozone states (despite repeatedly rescuing her own struggling economy by selling her large surplus to these same economies).
Perhaps that should be just one category error. Germans just do not understand the simplest principles of macroeconomics at all…..
Thanks for the message! (I noticed, I noticed).
We are a country on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
The Right-wing Regional government of Lombardy, our richest region (10 million people and 25% of gdp - with its ACCOUNTS in order - but little else) is collapsing in a way that is sure to destroy Berlusconi's fortunes at the national level. This is of course a wholly desirable and inevitable development, but at the moment it is profoundly unsettling.
The Centre-Left that MUST take over government after Monti is today in the midst of a knock-down fight that someone will call bickering sooner or later (in an attempt to downplay its significance) but is actually far beyond the usual bickering.
Matteo Renzi, the up-and-coming 44-year-old Mayor of Florence is insulting all the older party leaders and promises with his campaign to shunt aside the "geriatrics" - including the current opposition leader, Pier Luigi Bersani. He has picked a fight both with Massimo D'Alema, the former Prime Minister and nefarious, scheming and Machiavellian helmsman of the Italian Left (currently head of the Intelligence Committee in the Senate). Renzi also picked a fight with Marchionne and FIAT - a fairly safe political bet these days.
Marchionne responded by calling Renzi "the mayor of what is after all a small, poor city". (Pop. 370,000).
There are a few things that are not said or done (in public) in Italian culture. One of those things is to criticise Florence, the symbol of the Italian Renaissance.
Renzi (whom I personally do not trust - I prefer an older politician who has a younger mindset) had an easy game to respond (brilliantly, I might add): "Insult me if you choose, but leave the good citizens of Florence out of this."
Given that Marchionne is today the most hated man in Italy, I think Renzi has just achieved a big boost in his popularity. This sort of knock-down, personalistic fight has not been seen in a long time in our politics.
Two of the leading candidates (not that I would expect either to win) are now Renzi inside the system/Democratic Party and Beppe Grillo, the Genoese comedian outside the system. Both have support worth 15% apiece and growing...
Germany's understandable inflation paranoia
to Milovan on
We (Italy) are a country on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
Well, I keep saying the world has globalized everything except pessimism.
We all think bad things happen only where we live.
Don't worry, almost every country in the world is now on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
Those that aren't, are simply unaware of what goes on...
In 1975, when the real effects of the great inflation beginning in 1972 were felt all governments in the world fell. Some constitutionally, others not so much.
When the people who noticed the situation drew attention to it, the othes either didn't pay attention or denied it. A common reaction of many here. Psychologists have a name for it but it became so popular I refuse to use it.
I'm a snob at heart.
Well, thank you for your very informative piece. As you know, I know Italy very well. Obviously not half as well as you but enough to get all the nuances of the facts including calling Florence a small, poor city...
One does indeed get idiots everywhere.
To me, my greatest fear has been for several years, the fact that most people are treating the present crisis as if it were a run-of-the-mill financial crisis not knowing it is much deeper than that: it is one of those History shattering events that will take very long to settle into some normalcy within one or two generations.
Some deny it because they are not intelligent enough to see it: others characterize it according to their prejudices,the most comical being it is a Continental European crisis or a geopolitical contest between previous or aspiring great powers.
Few notice that at times like these Beppe Grillos can pop up almost anywhere. History has shown the vast majority of them are falling stars going straight in the some historical dust bins.
Others become Claudios, Napoleons, Mussolinis, Stalins or Hitlers leading Carlyles of this world to think History is made by great men when they are just the symbols of huge mass movements.
In fact, the most notorious fact bout the above is how ridiculous in one way or another they all were.
But when I speak of Carlyle I imagine quite a few here will imagine I'm mentioning a hedge fund...
Italy, I'm sorry to say this, is a mess.
But so is the USA, India, China, Japan, Britain, Russia and many other that haven't yet noticed it but will soon.
Like the global fall of governments in 1975, nobody is paying any attention to it.
But that was just politics and as such not very important.
This is structural, social, economic and almost certainly universal.
Italy doesn't worry me over much: the habitants of the country have developed for two millennia a peculiar art of coming back more influential than before without anyone paying attention or even making fun.
What worries me are those that became global influential powers for no more than a few centuries, have developed worthy,ethical and beneficial civilizations but haven't developed the deep culture that makes it resist earth shattering mass movements.
The new and very worthy technical civilizations whose achievements started with the industrial revolution are in particular danger of of subversion.
Cultural, not political.
The danger is that they are not noticing it: they prefer to worry about China's new aircraft carrier, the losses they made with wrong Euro bets, the money they have to spend with silly profligates or the tragic turmoil in the southern and eastern Mediterranean rims.
At least the latter are worthy concerns: lives, precious lives are being lost.
But what most people worry about is not over those lost lives: it's about what that can mean to their way of life.
Well, it's now a very sad world; not because how it is but because of what it'll go through in the next couple of generations.
Just one consolation: no matter how tragic historical events come to be, humankind always changes for the better after after tragedies.
Hope it won't be an exception this time.
You are right, enlisted, that the UK can't look for an ECB bazooka. But it doesn't need one. It has a bucket.
When the waves of economic, fiscal and financial stress begin to overpower the British ship, they can simply bail themselves out by devaluing the pound.
Spain doesn't have a bucket. The ECB has bullets in it bazooka but Germany has its finger in the barrel. How's that working out?
At any rate, the number of bullets in the bazooka is strictly limited. Spain may get the last one. Then what of Italy? And France? Give me a bucket any day over a bazooka.
"It should be written in large friendly letters over the door of every European treasury: Contractionary policy imposed in a contracting economy is always and everywhere recessionary. Persistent austerity will always and everywhere turn a cyclical recession into a great depression."
That sums it up alright Maher. We will loan you the money to pay our banks, rather then bail them out directly, but don't you dare spend what you need on yourselves.
The reality on the ground in Greece is the few people who have steady jobs are working, but haven't been paid in 6 months or even longer. There's just not enough money to pay them and the banks.
I wonder how the German people would react to working without pay? As an American, I of course have never experienced such a flagrant disregard of a worker's right to be compensated for his/her labor.
There obviously is a point where civil disobedience becomes necessary to one's survival.
To Maher
As cousins across the pond would say, I'm flabbergasted.
I agree with most of your first post above.
I'm not so sure about the austerity bit: in the early 30's, at the height of the Great Depression, Switzerland and Portugal followed strong austerity policies and reformed currencies (no name change).
For the next two generations both had the two strongest currencies in the (world forget the old fashioned phrase "strong currency").
Switzerland became very rich.
Portugal recovered most of the wealth she had lost in the 1800's.
Now, about Germany not knowing macroeconomics. Well, isn't that equivalent to saying that Britain doesn't understand the basic principles of forex trade at all...
The best way not to be taken seriously is to make either ridiculous or factious remarks.
Germany is just repeating the techniques used by Switzerland and Portugal in the early thirties. They were huge successes at the time.
Whether they will succeed again, I don't know. To be honest, neither do you, nor anybody else. We all shall have to wait.
Back to hyperinflation in Britain.
I have toyed with this idea for quite some time.
As you point out, most figures (yours and mine are little different) point in the direction that hyperinflation is a near impossibility now in Britain.
Yet, despite my strong maths inclinations (and yours this time do not differ from mine) sometimes my mind works by analogy.
And two come immediately to mind.
The first: one of the commonest errors in analysis is "it can't happen here because... and ... because...Furthermore, because....)
Having suffered the consequences of one such reasoning (thankfully for my mental health, not made by me; made by others who didn't heed my warnings) I'm always suspicious of it.
Second, as I've said several times, macroeconomic and financial circumstances in Britain today are not very different of those in Germany in say 1922.
It's easy to dismiss this parallel: social, political, psychological circumstances could hardly be more different.
Yet, I repeat, macro-circumstances were similar: large external debt, no great will to limit money printing, production of tradeable goods very small, trade and current transactions balance getting worse and worse and so on.
The London ultimatum in 1922 (? too lazy to check) made Germany pay without having reserves. Another analogy with Britain today.
So Germany printed money in several centres and banks (not today's situation in Britain).
The most infamous, yet not the worst, inflation ensued.
Assume creditors everywhere get even more nervous than they are now. In a couple of years when the first big external debts of the UK fall due, they issue a modern version of the 1922 London ultimatum: pay.
Yet they are not buying new bonds; the failure of the 100 year bond issue idea was an ignored warning.
What does the UK do: little choice but printing money as long as the pound holds value.
The trouble with hyper-inflations (I lived through one, not one tenth as bad as the German one but serious enough) is that they are like thunderstorms: you have feeling they might come but they don't. So you forget.
When you don't expect it any longer, they blast upon you in seconds.
Logic is that you are right, I wrong.
Praised be the Lord.
Yet, I'd take my umbrella if I'll go out.
I wrote a response at the top of the page...
@Sammy: "Whether they will succeed again, I don't know. To be honest, neither do you, nor anybody else. We all shall have to wait."
Do get a grip Sammy this isn't a f*cking parlour game.
In just two short years (1930 -1932) Brunings austerity policy doubled German unemployment from 15 – 30%. By 1932 the Germans would have anybody (and I do mean anybody) who would put an end to Brunings miserable austerity and gold fetish.
Greece is there now and Spain is racing to catch up.
You wait if you want to. I'm in favour of ending this demonstrably failed policy now before the bloody policy ends us…..
something is not right in your comment. Because of pressure from Germany Greece defaulted on most of the privately held bonds (ask MilovanDjilas) and German bank loans to Greece were around 20 bln. The German part in the first bailout package alone was over 20 bln.
"something is not right in your comment."
Yes, well, find it and we'll talk some more. It's very difficult to pull the banker's wool over my eyes enlisted. Yes, we need the banks, but I'm not one to fall into their trap. The Greeks didn't fall either. They were pushed, and it's not Germany's responsibility to help. I get it.
The Markets want growth though, not austerity. That will take a different POA.
to Maher on his post to Sammy about parlour games.
I've often derided or chided you over your hotheadedness, not very polite language and poor maths.
Your last post is the best example on how easily you lose control of feelings and thoughts. So I'll restrain my comments to this:
1930/32 was the height of Great Depression triggered by the bankruptcy of Kreditanstallt in Austria after the great Stock Exchange melt down in 1929.
Carbon copy of 2007 to 2012 events. Only names change.
Maybe Brüning austerity helped to make the German depression in the 30's worse; despite the spate of young hot heads popping all over the net these days, nobody knows for sure.
In the US, no Brüning there as an excuse, unemployment stats at the time were rumoured to have completely broken down. Yet they were surely and officially more than 20%.
A modicum of reliable data started trickling down after Roosevelt took over (and mostly after TVA was started) and unemployment fell to ...17% by 1938. For seemingly the first time in History the US were a net emigrating country.
Meanwhile, in Germany in 1938 there were less than one million unemployed something in the region of 3%.
I know, I know.
Hitler was in power since 1933, the autobahnen had been built, taxes on cars abolished, Nazi trade unions kept wages low and above all, machine guns, fighter planes and tanks were being produced.
What does this prove? Only two points.
First we know very little about big slumps and financial crises and Germans apparently knew about macroeconomics then. Pity 1/3 of them, and no more than that, were Nazis too.
This is what makes the matter somewhat more important than a parlour game.
That's why you can't lose your hot head now. In a parlour game you can. The worse that can happen to you is not being invited again.
Ascribing high unemployment in Germany in 1933 to Brüning's austerity is as certain as deciding that a car crash caused by a lorry that hit a car, was due to the car having worn tires.
It could be but is improbable. We shall never know.
Switzerland's and Portugal's identical policies to Brüning's, almost simultaneous, were a huge success medium term.
Could Brüning's be if other factors hadn't intervened?
I don't know, you don't know, not all Economic Nobel prizes (that really do not exist) know, either.
Humankind knows yet very little of economics and far less of finance.
And if one can't afford to wait is me: at 81 if the policy is wrong I'll never benefit from the change. If the policy is right you'll certainly will benefit from it.
Now, don't lose your head again and no swearing.
You'll only make a fool of yourself.
What you and Viva forgot is Lagarde's prowess as a sychronised swimmer. What she doesn't know about economics, she makes up in swimming.
Do you remember the time when she told the Greeks to pay their taxes? Some busybodies looked into this and found that she didn't pay any herself, at all.
Oshin is right. The riots of August 2011 were caused by the police shooting a fellow and had nothing to do with the rise in students' fees.
It's not true either that the British police "are not armed". In the more sensitive areas they are, though not in the quieter parts of the UK.
Yeah Junior, and unlike most Greeks, she has a quite a cushy job to pay her's with...laughs
Just saw your analysis. I would agree with much of it. I'll call you 51% right - which is not bad in this world of uncertainty.
But I would offer a few criticisms of this argumentation - just as an intellectual exercise.
1) Yes, the UK has the world's most stable currency and bond market (another factor you fail to mention is the longest period of government for a Head of State of any country in the world today: let's not forget whose visage is ON the British currency). But this at-times excessive stability entails another negative price for the British economy: the pound has long been over-valued since it has attracted unduly large amounts of international investment capital - and British manufacturing, exports and the economy in general have suffered accordingly.
This imbalance in the economy has also favoured the overweening power of banks (and banksters) while decimating the influence of British industrialists. We Germans and Italians (and not only) see this as the victory of the "virtual" financial economy over the "real" productive economy.
I would accept that the jury is still out on this debate - but frankly, given the American-triggered Financial Depression now devastating the former West (and Germany's own superior economic performance) the idea that the world of Finance also creates real wealth is not attracting new adherents. It looks suspiciously to the rest of us mere mortals that the Financial World ROBS wealth and does not create it.
2) I would be a little wary of debt figures for the US and the UK. I am not sure the figures you cite are calculated with the same methodology. I have read articles suggesting that, using Maastricht-type European debt calculations, the US debt-to-gdp ratio is already over 100%. Not to mention contingent liabilities hanging around in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Deficits persistently over 8% seem to be doing more damage to the US than the UK. Especially when one considers how limited the positive effects on economic growth are proving.
3. 70% of UK gilts are held domestically: Where is your evidence of this? I have searched and got the answer that the Bank of England does not release these details...
In any case, the percentage of Italian domestically-held bonds has risen over the last 18 months (erratically) from 54% to almost 70%. We too thought 55-60% would shield us from outside speculation - and we have the cushion of a large pool of domestic savings that the UK does not have.
4. You do not discuss the UK's true Achilles Heel: private indebtedness. Austerity is feared greatly in the US and the UK - and proving very problematic in the Netherlands - exactly because private indebtedness renders it highly dangerous. I would say that the markets have not yet perceived this vulnerability.
5. I have read your analyses long enough that I consider you honest, earnest and straight-forward. I do not at all consider you a paid-by-someone hack or hired gun.
But I think you are naive about the real nature of power and Masonic power in the US and the UK. I would refer you to the work of Georgetown professor Carroll Quigley, S.J. "The Anglo-American Alliance". Oh yes there is an Anglo-American conspiracy. And it feels threatened enough by the Euro-zone that is has organised a number of (for the moment, less-than-successful) attacks against us.
Bravo Zorbas!
I too am considering leaving Italy for a few years. I have enough work here, even though I am being paid one-third of what I earned 10 years ago (not before the crisis, 10 YEARS AGO). But I have kept my debt low and have no extravagant habits.
What I find intolerable is being ordered constantly to produce projects within three days' time and then being forced to wait 6-9 months for payment. I am still arguing over invoices from February and I have bills to pay. Therefore, I am seriously considering heading off to South America.
The fundamental divide in our economies has developed between those with regular and those without regular pay. And the pension cheques for our coddled retirees never arrive late. This is intolerable. Not to mention intolerable taxes...
Why ask me? The only exposure Italian banks had to Greece was a couple of billion Unicredit had on the books through its German subsidiary (ex-HVSB).
On the other hand, yes, the perception of Italian creditworthiness was knocked for a loop by (inappropriate) association.
We are not Greece.
Many thanks for this response.
"Mi sono commosso" (I was very moved).
Well, you complained bitterly that Mrs. Merkel was insisting Greece default on their debt.
So if anybody thinks it's all about securing repayment for banks he should ask you...
Good luck Milovan. My family left a generation ago, and my father had to work himself to death to get a foothold in the American Dream, but as workers, our salaries were always paid on time. It's the law.
The private pensions are not guaranteed of course. Social Security is for the most part, but the conservatives amongst us continue to argue how it needs to be overhauled, because it will be depleted one day. Sheer utter self serving nonsense.
Interesting how the government can run up such a large debt, but social security, which is solvent, needs to be privatized, so their thieving Wall Street friends can get their hands on that money too.
As you know my friend, travel is the key to understanding what is truly going on behind the scenes in each of our nations. Patterns and consistent themes emerge across the board.
I have lived in Greece, traveled to Germany, and still have family and friends in both places, so I know how the Greeks are dealing with the realities on the ground, what the German mindset is as well, what the politicians must say, but what they must actually do in the end. I have been through all of this already in my lifetime.
Of course the Greek politicians will continue to tell the troika yes, but there is no way to do what they are asking Greece to do, so the money will continue to flow, and the boat will be steered ever so slowly in a different, almost imperceptibly different direction. Too late for an honest worker though, and that is the travesty indeed.
Only a civil war will bring it all to a screeching halt. The Greeks have grown soft I fear. I would have killed all these bankers already. Yes, we need the banks, but when they get in the way of my ability to feed my loved ones, killing them becomes justifiable in this Greeks eyes.
I do not know you man but I guess you are rolling on the floor just like me right now.
Samaras: "the Greek people are bleeding."
Yes, very good. Play the sympathy card, so Merkel can play the empathy card, and perhaps the Greeks will continue to remain oblivious to the fact that you both work for the banks.
Yes, well, it appears the right combination of empathy, tear gas, and stun grenades was struck...laughs
Now pay the banks and don't spend any of the loaned money on yourselves. In other words, go bleed somewhere else.
Everybody knows the Greek bailouts are in effect a bailout for French & German banks which hold most of Greece's debts.
However it takes a certain chutzpah to pretend empathy for Greeks while making them suffer decades of austerity to save German banks from their own reckless greedy behavior.
Good going, zorbas. You read them politicos like no one else here applying simple Greek logic, which makes you the sharpest contributor on the blog, no kidding and no patronizing.
"Show empathy and we will not bring on the soup. Not eating it would be a terrible insult to Greek hospitality but if you mouth all those expected platitudes at the press conference we will not bring on the soup" did the trick, right zorbas?
It may all turn out well for the Greek "elites" in the end, since it is no longer about economy but geostrategy, right? The losers will be, as always, the popolos, Greek and German and European.
Maybe this is the only feasible approach. What would be the alternative? A European Cuba on the doorsteps of Iran/Iraq/Syria destabilizing the region.
Can of worms.
"Maybe this is the only feasible approach. What would be the alternative? A European Cuba on the doorsteps of Iran/Iraq/Syria destabilizing the region."
"Maybe this is the only feasible approach". What a blockheaded statement.
The *feasible* approach is obvious, but Brussels has engineered a barrier to it deliberately.
The "EU" should not have meddled in national political affairs with its grand project by saddling countries like Portugal, Spain and Greece etc. with a currency that is not intended for them.
This is the bizarre result: Merkel with 7000 riot police as a welcoming motorcade, a situation that could not have arisen had Greek political class not had this ridiculous "euro" dangled in front of it.
Had the democracies of Portugal, Spain and Greece been more mature and their politician held to account, then their politicians would have realised that their duty was to their electorate and their own economic advisors, and not to some Brussels pipedream, then they would not have ignorantly and greedily followed a half-baked project like blind sheep.
The current situation is the price you pay for a project that has deliberately side-lined democracy.
Yes, thanks entirely to your "EU" indeed "the losers will be, as always, the popolos, Greek and German and European."
"It may all turn out well for the Greek "elites" in the end, since it is no longer about economy but geostrategy, right? The losers will be, as always, the popolos, Greek and German and European."
Thank you for acknowledging this - which I began writing two years ago. As the mother church of the Orthodox world, there are repercussions far beyond Greek borders.
And, both Greece and Turkey represent Europe's bridge to the Holy Land - an unfortunate strip of earth with a geopolitical importance far out of proportion that will remain the most relevant as long as the world is dominated by monotheists.
A way should have been found 1-2 years ago to stabilise Greece while maintaining the principle that they would have to pay 90% of their own debts - stabilise the country even at the COST of a bit of GIFTED money if necessary.
If Germany had tabled discussions on this a way could have been found to guarantee more money was coming from Italy and Spain than Germany, in the name of regional solidarity.
"Everybody knows the Greek bailouts are in effect a bailout for French & German banks which hold most of Greece's debts."
Please do not fail to mention that credits have been granted also against the backdrop of books cooked with the help of the philanthropists from Government Sachs.
Joe, thanks for omitting V. word for once, though you were close.
As to Greece and Turkey - the Turks have simply decided that enough of this GR-TUR deficiency of concord and have lent the Greek a hand going a bit harder than usual along their southern border. Solely to draw everybody's attention that Greece IS strategically positioned.
Hello! How is the economy in Poland these days? I was in Friuli's second city of Udine yesterday and I saw a (new?) Oknoplast office near the main square, Piazza I Maggio.
Interesting point. You may be right about Turkey seeking to help Greece indirectly. I also think Erdogan wants the West to intervene in Syria, because the Turks are decidedly unhappy with the idea of civil war on their borders. Can't say I blame them.
Debka is reporting that Hollande is preparing to break with Obama's policy on Syria. What policy is that? (Not that I mean to criticise him, but honestly...) Is that non-intervention? Monitoring the situation closely? Waiting until after the American elections to intervene? Or is Hollande trying to build a European response as opposed to a purely American response?
In any case, I sense an Americanisation of European politics. Here, our Leftists were always opposed to military intervention abroad (France was the exception, being a nuclear power).
But in the US, it used to be the common wisdom that "The Democrats (Left) always start the wars and the Republicans (Right) finish them." Because the Left of Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy and Johnson was known for seeking to defend Democracy abroad, while the Right-wing businessmen wanted to trade profitably with all sides abroad without direct involvement.
This dynamic was also on display when Bush père refused to intervene in Yugoslavia and Clinton decided to act in the War in Kosovo in 1999.
I think the Left here in France and Italy and Spain is more interested in intervention in Syria than is the Right.
Also, with regard to Turkey and Greece - leaving Cyprus to be bailed out by Russia is a BIG, BIG geopolitical mistake for the EU. How can any EU military intervention in Syria/the Holy Land NOT start with Cyprus?
>How is the economy in Poland these days?<
You know what is a traditional enthusiastic answer here. Stara bida!
As to the lastest TUR-SYR tension, something is really fishy here. Almost as if to deliberately make the fourth Nato's article applicable here and thus making intervention in Syria a whole-Nato affair. In contrast to Libyan one, when no Nato member was attacked and thus some European NATO countries from the Northern E.Plain could think twice and thus avoided the shame of this blunder. And in line with the post 11 september war when one of the Nato members was directly attacked and thus 4th article demanded that all members take real, not phoney action.
However I do hope the guys up there do recognize the difference between a massive terrorist attack by the powerful organization and a mortar shot over the border.
>How is the economy in Poland these days?<
As well as the taxpayers of her subsidiarinosc will permit, of course.
Silly question, as that is exactly what Forlana comes here to monitor.
" because the Turks are decidedly unhappy with the idea of civil war on their borders. Can't say I blame them."
or rather that the Kurds get the idea of autonomy with the help of these foreign fighters in syria, when they'll be done with Assad, will look for another battle field.
It's not a war of Syrian civils any more vs another syrian civil faction, it's radical islam vs a laic power.
Turks aren't innocents, they are waiting for the opportunity to extend their power. But still are precarious, none knows wht would do Russia, Iran... in such a happening, since the westen countries don't to get involved into the conflict, which certainly would become a world war, whereas, the Muslim world would rise against us...
The other day, I wwas discussing with a Maroccan, he told me that in the Koran, the world war with the muslims is forecasted though.
I am afraid that that will be more bloody than the previous ones.
When you imagine that 50% of these populations are unemployed, their occupation becomes bellicose
Debka isn't a reliable source, it tries to influence opinons
Hollande has no envy to put boots on this battle field, but rather in Sahara, whereas, AKMI is subjugating the Sahel countries, indirectly us, to, as these countries have trades agreements, cultural ties with us, that a significant number of their people have a double nationality.
read the links that I brought to Viva underneath
Turkey is not attacked by Syria, how could a dwarf country could win against a giant, much more well armed?
Trying to say hi since days but somehow don't come round it, as there are always some Morlocks breathing down my neck. So here it comes: Hi, handsome :-) How is Scythia?
Syria is an European problem.
I don't see Syria located near the USA on the North American continent.
I presume you know the map of Europe and how close it is to the middle-east.
Case closed.
"Hi, handsome :-) How is Scythia?"
No, you eternally obsequious, irrelevant, facebooking oaf - try "how's your subsidiarinosc", she may respond more kindly.
glad that you don't
but bizarre, some others would rather see it as a US concern in the first place
Which doesn't change the fact that Syria is on Europe's borders but thousands of miles away, separated by a vast ocean from the USA.
However we must give credit to her valiant efforts in these blogs to keep the billions in EU subsidies flowing to Poland.
No EU funds, no Polish support for EU.
That's about the size of it.
Look at the Iberians etc., hooked for so long to the EU teat, they too will give it a miss when the milk dries up.
Pumpernickel must be a masochist giving money to them so that they can burn effigies of the German leader of the day, and STILL find that German tourists are hated everywhere:)
Yep, they done opened up a can of worms alright. They should have been much more careful about who they let in, and those that wanted in, should have gotten all their ducks in a row before they joined, but too late now.
Typical Greek BS. Overreach without sizing the situation up correctly, and then beg in the streets for sympathy. It's the elites. They wanted that Euro to lend legitimacy to their fortunes, and to hell in a hand basket with everyone else. So, where can I invest in tear gas and stun grenades...laughs
By the way, I passed my cardiology stress test today. Did 10 minutes on the tread mill. Got up to a real fast clip too. I told the doctor, you better turn this damn thing off, because I wont quit. I'll keep going until I have a heart attack to prove I'm fit...laughs
Hello Pumpernickle! What is this new trend with Scythia about:) You want to push us down to Eastern Africa and Homo erectus?
I am really glad I have managed to take you out of the chess corner! ;)
Follow the civilized way: confession-penace-absolution :)
Forlana doesn't think that five Turks being blown apart by a mortar are enough to start a war over. I hope she's right.
But this begs the question. How many dead Turks does it take in forlana's calculus to merit a response to attack from Syrian soil? And how many more to justify invasion? And how many Turks does it take getting blown up for forlana to decide that NATO must intercede?
I'm betting there aren't enough Turks in heaven or earth to be blown up in forlana's philosophy to be sufficient to move her to want to assist Poland's Turkish allies, no matter what.
I responded to a American in 2007, when Bush made such a discourse to Europe for accepting Turkey in its club, that he should consider to make of Turkey the 51rd state of US instead of, and I got many K and a good laugh from the blog audience, made essentially of military and Vets !
"Syria is an European problem.
I don't see Syria located near the USA on the North American continent.
I presume you know the map of Europe and how close it is to the middle-east.
Case closed."
Take another look at the map: Syria is even closer to Israel than it is to Europe. You remember, that country that has received 2 billion dollars a year in assistance for 40 years? Thus Syria is an American problem. Case closed.
Also - and slightly more seriously - do you really think the United States ("In God We Trust") could remain a Great Power for long without a foothold in the Holy Land?
Aside from that, I agree with you that Syria is ALSO a European problem.
Four Turkish children and their mother, if I have understood correctly.
I too live in a border town. I can imagine what the outcry would be here if an artillery shell came across the border.
I think the Turks are already demonstrating steel nerves in this crisis. They have my respect - and they deserve our concrete support.
Syria is on Europe's border, not America's.
Get a grip on reality and deal with it.
No, there is no land border between Europe and Syria - please go check the map again.
And, Israel is America's ally, not Europe's. (We Italians have two bilateral military treaties with Israel, but we are almost the only country in Europe).
Get a grip on reality and deal with it. Europe does not give Israel 2 billion a year and supply most of the Israeli military.
Whether you like it or not Syria is on Europe's border.
Whether you like it or not Syria is not on America's border.
Case closed.
Follow the civilized way: confession-penace-absolution :)"
That is exactly what that catholic, guilt-ridden, unpopular German bore is doing, and since when were you catholics so civilised?
That is why you dislike England for not being so gung-ho to subsidise people who do not like us. It is insanity. We wish you well, but NEVER forget that we do not have the German "EU"-cross to bear and unlike them can still go to the Mediterranean without being spat at.
Big difference.
Look at this blog: the only audience that this unloved German can scrape up comes from those who feed off his German catholic "confession-penace-absolution :)".
(And the ignorant oaf, sitting in boring Düsseldorf who likes to facebook his various attempts to escape it, thinks that the name Andalucia has something to do with the Vandals. Unsurpisingly it derives from Latin via - "walk into the light".)
So you want the last word, eh? Take it.
Some day you are going to have to give us a version of your map of the world. The "World according to Sherry".
We will see Europe bordering Syria on the map, if on no other.
Correct me if I'm wrong, amico mio, but didn't you just get the last word? Or did I just get it?
Yes Joe lets look at the map - do you see that vast ocean called the Altantic Ocean separating Syria from the USA.
Now look at the map, do you see Syria borders Turkey, which borders Greece.
Syria is on Europe's doorstep, it is Europe's problem.
Now deal with it.
I wish you had got the last word ;-)
Anyway, what news have you heard in the US about this crisis?
Admiral Di Paola is the "technician" who is our current Defence Minister. In fact, he was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for various years and might be called the Father of the Modern Italian Navy (if and when we finish building it - he put up for sale 20 of our oldest ships last month in an attempt to find money to continue the ambitious new shipbuilding programme).
A few months ago he was saying "Syria is complicated - there is also Israel, the US and Russia in the region". Translation: no Italian or European military action soon.
Now he is saying, "There have long been plans for the defence of Turkey, and if it were necessary there is no doubt the Alliance (NATO) will support Ankara." Translation: if Ankara makes a direct request for specific assistance, Italy is available to send support.
"Some day you are going to have to give us a version of your map of the world. The 'World according to Sherry'."
Let me help you out:
Disclaimer: I have posted this earlier.
Wait, where are the sea-lanes being protected by American ships? ;-)
Is this Joe version of the world map that shows Syria separated by a vast ocean from Europe ; )
It seems that life has become very cheap in the United States.
We're a nation of extremes. Excess is what we do! Pick a side, frivolous lawsuits vs, sue 'em for a cup of coffee that was too hot.
Which side are you on? No, don't think damn you! Pick a side I said!
The swinging pendulum of political idiocy. Where will it take us next?
Anarchy is the natural progression of political life. You have to be an idiot not to understand where this is all headed.
Desensitize the youth with prime time entertainment, violent art that imitates the false life you want them to lead, so you can send them off to fight a banker's war!
Use to be a soldier returned from battle, and got some training and a job for life. Now he comes home to a wife who's shacking up with his best friend, and a banker who is evicting him from his home.
So, get yours and screw your neighbor! Even if you don't screw him. Smile at him and f!@k him, because if you don't, he'll f!@k you first. We can't afford to take any chances here...laughs
That's what America has become, even the doctors don't really give a flying fart if they poison you by accident.
NEXT, I got bills to pay Mr!
the world is done, Harmageddon is coming
BTW avoid Hospitals, rather take Marijuana for pains in the back
It's been too long. Can't find my connection any longer. Last time I tried it I had an epiphany and got married, and look how that turned out...laughs
"sue 'em for a cup of coffee that was too hot. "
Obviously you no nothing of that particular case. People love to use this particular case when knocking some aspects of the US legal system. The elderly woman suffered 3rd degree burns. If you don't understand the severity of 3rd degree burns just google it and go to images or stick your hand in a hot flame for about a minute. Secondly, it spilled into her lap, if you understand what a boiling cup of coffee in the sexual organs means. Read the information below and educate yourself. Some claims are frivolous and the plaintiffs generally lose. Others are not. This one was not.
Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[13] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her down to 83 pounds (38 kg).[14] Two years of medical treatment followed.
Other documents obtained from McDonald's showed that from 1982 to 1992 the company had received more than 700 reports of people burned by McDonald's coffee to varying degrees of severity, and had settled claims arising from scalding injuries for more than $500,000.[6] McDonald's quality control manager, Christopher Appleton, testified that this number of injuries was insufficient to cause the company to evaluate its practices. He argued that all foods hotter than 130 °F (54 °C) constituted a burn hazard, and that restaurants had more pressing dangers to warn about. The plaintiffs argued that Appleton conceded that McDonald's coffee would burn the mouth and throat if consumed when served.[19]
"if you understand what a boiling cup of coffee in the sexual organs means."
woah, you have a very peculiar way of describing pain, do you have a past as a sado-maso torturer?
This is what I love about Americans! And why I'm so glad to have a practical Greek background. Most normal people know how to handle a hot cup of coffee, right?
CAREFULLY!!! But not Americans. Right past the lips in big gulps no less. Burned throats and stomachs. Only in America could this happen!
So now they sell us all cold stale coffee to compensate for the idiots like this guy, who enjoys bathing his crotch in it...laughs
"And why I'm so glad to have a practical Greek background."
So how many times will we have to bail out your practical nation?
"So now they sell us all cold stale coffee to compensate for the idiots like this guy, who enjoys bathing his crotch in it...laughs"
Of course you've got it wrong. It was a 79 year old woman.
"Stella Liebeck who suffered 3rd degree burns in her pelvic region when she spilled hot coffee purchased from fast food restaurant McDonald's."
Please try to find at least 5 minutes before you speak.
You jumped the starters gun again bottle rocket. No one here was referring to the "Stella Liebeck" case, of which you appear to be a self professed expert. You seems to know a lot about McDonald's as well. Are you still working the drive up counter, or were you demoted to fries again...laughs
PS - No wait, you're an ambulance chasing shyster attorney, who wishes he could have handled the Stella Liebeck case to take a 3rd.
News flash genius. Different times. Our boys have been losing their lives in two brutal wars for years now. American have become desensitized. Burns aren't worth $hit anymore.
Less so for little old ladies of course. Find one, and try your luck. Perhaps you can spill the coffee on her. I'll never tell...laughs
interesting how policy is applied to remain below 500 comments
some are more appreciated, I wonder why?
Could be that some pariah nation hasn't the right to take place in the Choir, its voice isn't PC for TE
so much efforts for closing the french mouths, whenever you kick us out through the back door, we are able to contradict your gloomy forecasts by invading your screens, by winning prices in the grown-ups play-grounds...
it's not tomorrow that you'll reduce us with your neo-liberal diktats as a begging country.
TE the bible for the serfs
So a French film has been a hit. So unusual that you have to tell us about it.
A Frenchman winning a Nobel Prize for Physics. How many does that make compared to the Brits and Germans, let alone the US?
Maybe you could send us a link showing us.
Maybe it's the "person" representing that nation that TE objects to, not the nation itself. Did you ever think of that?
There are several sane French people who comment on other TE threads, as well as "Dominiqu" who intervenes when TE writes about France. They never have any trouble.
That you should think you have been banned, yet again, because you "represent" France proves you are in serious need of treatment.
which film won the 2012 oscars?
which film hit the record of attendance?
"How many does that make compared to the Brits and Germans, let alone the US?"
how many million inhabitants in the States? how many of them won a nobel price? unless they were foreign scientists hired by the US universities
Germany 84 million inhabitants
France 64 million
several French people?
They never have any trouble?
lots of Dominique comments have been removed
"which film won the 2012 oscars?"
'The Artist', the first time a French film has ever won Oscar for best movie. Big deal!
Even taking into account the population differences between the US, Germany and France, France's record in no way compares when it comes to Nobel prizes.
And you conveniently forgot the UK with about twice the French number, especially in medicine. How do you explain that?
We are not talking about people having their comments removed. That happens to everyone.
We're talking about being banned and having to change monickers once a week like you.
This only happens to you because, oh yes, you're French, isn't that right? And TE "don't like the French".
Of course!
"'The Artist', the first time a French film has ever won Oscar for best movie. Big deal!"
"you conveniently forgot the UK"
No, I was sure you would quote it. The British universities have some means for working (their students fee are very expensive) that the French's haven't, almost free fee for the students, not counting fondations that thelp them.
tell me, apart Dominique, who is French?
I hope you don't think to RivierraRocket and alikes, they aren't French
Even Vive_Chimie is Brit
How on earth do you manage it:)
All your very own own work as far as I know.
"the first time a French film has ever won Oscar for best movie"
and not counting the different other awards won in the US, and around the world, much more numerous
The oscar award is generally a Hollywood award, supported by their financers lobby, hence the big advertizing machine deployed in the US medias, previous the ceremony whereas foreigners often get the charity lots
Ask the Politburo Kommissar !
not soon that I will align with the consensual discourse
Not so unusual when you know that a great part of the population become very sensitive when you speak about "La Grande Nation" if you are not French It's called inferiority complex camouflaged as superiority complex. Very easy to identify. Marie Claude, My Dog and Me, Bobonne, Gwitreg etc or whatever pseudo she decides to take does it so well.
PS _ The Artist won the Oscars most likely because it was a silent film. No need to listen to boring and poorly written script about love triangles.
Of course it is her. Just read her franglais and instant responses. This is a perfect example of one certain french woman thinking she is smarter than the rest of us. Go "drive" your dogs MC.
Your charm, your subtility, your fairness, your weight.... your glasses.... your crass bigottry
we are your obliged for your unforgettable inputs
especially knowing that you breath our air (would you be kind to translate : tu nous pompes l'air)
As it happens, MC, I recognize that dialog: it comes from 'Hot Butter in Buenus Ourass'. Starring Marlon Brando and half the population of Paris. A five-and-a-half hour homage to lust, greed, envy, betrayal and unbridled enthusiasm.
Pass the butter here first. What Viva does with it after I'm done buttering my roll is his business. Leaveittoviva la differance!
PS - Sorry Viva, couldn't help myself. You stepped right into that one...laughs
what's your message?
I usually don't reply to you but in this case I just have one thing that I would like to point out to you who are a non biased "opinionator" lost in one upmanship.
your wrote
The performance gap Sep 23rd, 10:56
My dear, France isn't a exception for "Denial", didn't notice that that was different in your whining country
as far as Golobalisation BAE is going to be absorbed by EADS, so much for french losers !
All I have to say to you if I can stop ROTFLMAO is
Ne mettez pas la charette avant vos "dogs"
I'll put the link in French so you can understand
Yes. So much for French losers.
French loser ?
incredible how you foreigners, living upon our wealthfare, whereas in your own country, the US, would have been thrown out of your home for not being able to pay its loans, are rejoicing when something supposely negative happens in France
Like we would joyfully jump when a terrorist hits a American.
It's not a loss, so far for France, but for Tom Enders, who wanted to make a financial operation that would have given him more power on the international stage.
The French, shareholders, government, military, (you didn't read the whole story, with sources that I brought on board, removed by some Politburo zealot, which had another sight of the deal, that your're twisting above by asociating some of my sentences from different posts)) weren't enthousiast for such a merger, they would have lost money, and most likely jobs, some of our other successful Companies, would have made a double employ with what BAE was doing.
BEA is, and will be on a perillous situation in the next years, as its biggest and main client, the US, is considerably slowing down its arms budget, not only, UK too, and most of the planet arms purchasers that aren't under a UN embargo.
While Airbus, Thales.. are but benefitful, due to the forecasted civil planes sales...
You know, I hope that Vals taxes inquirers will find you, I'm sure that you're hiding some evaded taxes somewhere around the Rivierra, that your business with China isn't clear...
We don't need foes like you in France
Zorba, again, innocent posts vanished
and though of the favorite US machos blend, but absorbed the other way round
did you read that one?
Hot butter in the US ?
The blind man sounds like an inside job to me. Just the enema, that's it! Maybe she'll come back. He shouldn't have said anything. She might not now...laughs
As for the fraternity, some boys just need to come to grips with their sexuality, and stop playing dangerous games to get their jollies, while all the while denying that their gay.
So, let the games begin! Between consenting adults that is...laughs
PS - Just got back from the cardiologist. Passed my stress test. The doc says the prognosis looks good!
"Just got back from the cardiologist. Passed my stress test. The doc says the prognosis looks good!"
Well your heart is all right, we knew that !
though your cardiologist ain't God, he doesn't know what other illnesses could kill you, or if a brik would fall on your head !
just enjoy life as it happens
It seems that "hot bottom" is a well shared American concern
ermany feared being left on the sidelines of any tie-up between European aerospace giant EADS and British arms maker BAE Systems, analysts say, after Berlin was blamed for blocking the deal.
Talks on the potential $45-billion (35-billion-euro) mega-merger, which BAE Systems abandoned on Wednesday, were blocked by Germany, a source close to the matter told AFP.
"The Germans are worried that there will be a duopoly with Toulouse (Airbus headquarters in southern France) in charge of civil matters and London for defence," said Henrik Uterwedde, deputy director of the German-French Institute in Ludwigsburg, before the talks collapsed.
But German Economy Minister Philipp Roesler also insisted that "Germany has to preserve its interests" while recognising that this merger was an "undoubted opportunity."
With possibly less than a year to go until national elections, Berlin was sensitive to the need to protect its factories and tens of thousands of EADS-linked jobs in Germany.
My fear is that the defence activities of the firm will be divided between France and Britain," said Martin Lindner, parliamentary vice-president of the Free Democrats, junior coalition partners in the German government.
That's why she is totes a "gaper" whenever she returns from hols in Argentina. She tries to blame it on "pony-trekking in Patagonia".
this Argentinian "thing" seems to have printed your mind, sure, quite exciting for a Brit that was in use with frustrating victorian morals
Yes, a Frenchman finally won a physics Nobel. They finally figured out how to get a cork out of a bottle without sucking. La da de DA La DA de DAAAAAAAA de Da, La da de DA DAAAAAAA La de da........
not finally, but once more
hey, how was your enema ?
"whenever you kick us ... in the back door"
But I thought that was why you liked going to Argentina:)
no, it's for the pinguins
I didn't know the Argentinians had trained penguins in the black arts of backdoor-fireworks.
btw, their backdoor-fireworks obsession is even worse in the pampas (or should that be pampers) where you went pony-trekking than in Buanus Ourass. Fact.
Sorry, you lost again. The UK introduced tuition fees just a few years ago. Before that university education was free.
The UK's Nobel prize achievements for science go back 100 years.
Let's face it, the main contributors to scientific research and discoveries over the past 350 years have been the Germans and the Brits and (in a more recent period, obviously) the Americans.
There have been contributions from other countries too, but these three have been the main CONSISTENT contributors.
Sorry about that.
Gwitreg/Wuff/mydogandme sent a link a about a movie called 'the Untouchables' which she says was a hit.
As I never heard of it, I looked it up. Yeah, it was a hit all right, but only in France. Looks as though no-one outside France was interested.
I wondered why I never heard of it.
Junoir often talks about France, so do ChrisFrance and Frankly Francophile.
so what? Sanmartinian lives in Britain, and none can assimilate him as a British
watch "Bombon el perro"
pff, it is selectionned for the next oscar awards
So what, researches benefitted from private donations
"Let's face it, the main contributors to scientific research and discoveries over the past 350 years have been the Germans and the Brits and (in a more recent period, obviously) the Americans."
BS, Nobel prices are only recorded since a century
Since the heggemony of the the US, foreign languages "brevets" have little chance to get a life, not enough money available for them, or they were bought from firms that exploited them for their benefits, or to burry them because they would concurrrence their businesse...
Germany, of course, Nazis times were a great time for german science, noticeably in medecine, they had free cobayes in concentration camps, and in Rocketry, that the american imported for free...
French contribuated to determining discoveries for the humanity though, and still do, with far less means
oh I forgot a whole generation of French men was disabled, or lost from WW1, among potential researchers, artists, intellectuals...
1,5 million deads, 4 million woundeds, half with incapacity to work
@ Pumpernickel
Two replies below to your article on German universities.
I have also posted below some things for you.
Thanks, found them.
Talking about Scottish Universities, my son studied for his BSc in Physics in St. Andrews and for his Masters in IT at Stirling University and as a result is contributing heavily to R & D with one of Britain's high tech manufacturers with more than a dozen patents to his name so, yes, there is value there in Scotland, if you are aiming to be Scotty on the Enterprise, as seems to be my son's ambition who is probably just as British as you are and gives me stick regularly for being a Germanz ;-(
You keep telling me that I am not an Anglophile. You couldn't be more wrong. Fighting the Germany haters on the DT and TE or heaving a heavy dislike for the vultures at Canarfy Wharf and the City does not per se make me Anglophobe and no, I am not one of those who tell every Britain I meet that "you do not make stuff". I leave this to the sikkos, of which we have just as many as you do.
I just find it curious that you seem to be eager to sell your family silver, your manufacturing base to foreigners and seem to be doing much better under foreign management than under your own and, yes, I blame this on the City too and on a certain chinless culture which holds that getting your hands oily is not for a British gentleman.
Enough of that. It is you who should be explaining yourself, not I.
By Jove, I think you're onto something.
Junoir, how do you answer?
PP has expressed a wish to paint the queen's toenails and all you can do is badger him?
You Brits are exterminating hedgehogs, whom PP dearly loves, and yet he finds it in his heart to eat your greasy fish and chips anyhow?
Where does it all end?
at Pumpernickel wrote:
"You keep telling me that I am not an Anglophile. You couldn't be more wrong. Fighting the Germany haters on the DT " etc.
First, you must be as "EU" brainwashed as MC for constantly mistaking a British allergy to the "EU" as a disliking for "Germanz" per se. If there is bad blood, then at least have the intelligence to recognize that your "EU" is responsible for it.
MC reacts similarly on behalf of France. When I made the point about the handicap of multinational projects (such as would occur through an EADS-BAE merger which has additional political implications that have nothing to do with the armaments business) and even praised France as an example with the success of the "Rafale", for having had the sense to stay out of the "Eurofighter" project, and she retorted by defending EADS as a French fief, just as she had done about the "EU" as a French fief, and missing the point wildly.
Do really identify Germany directly with the "EU"? More fool you.
Second, you must have pitifully little understanding of the British inheritance and character for a professed "Anglophile" if you cannot accept the natural British aversion to an ideologically driven currency (a 'perpetuum mobile' even:)) and government, and then telling the Brits "woe betide you if you go your own way". You cannot force together that which does not belong together.
I know that for many Germans, this mythical "EU" is still a religion or penitence, as is its currency.
There is a huge gulf in perception at play here which this article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/rogerbootle/9577209/Sensible-... goes some way towards addressing. In a subsequent article the same reporter addresses a Singaporean conference which raised the question of "why is Germany so enslaved to the 'EU' ideal when it could do far better without the "EU".
Whoever come up with the brilliant idea of a Merkel trip to Greece should win a prize.
Once again in this day and age of the globalized media the world will be treated to the amazing sight of this....
"7,000 police to protect Angela Merkel during Athens visit
Greek police are preparing a huge security operation involving 7,000 officers, water cannon and a helicopter to protect German chancellor Angela Merkel during her visit to Athens tomorrow."
Another interesting fact, one of the most fundamental rights of democracy has been banned in Greece during Merkel's visit.
"all large gatherings and rallies have been banned in large parts of Athens (shown in the map below) from 9am to 10pm."
So streets will be closed for 1 hour during Merkel's visit to Athens tomorrow. Big deal. What exactly do you think happens when the US President comes to town?
"Travelling makes for open-minded people, for which Pumpernickle is a great example":) - extracted from a comment you seem to have withdrawn.
Unfortunately, if all that Pumpernickel seems to glean from the travels that you mention are his own erroneous interpretations (or ideological Wunschträume to use the vernacular that would apply to him), his travels have certainly not made him wiser.
"Big deal?"
Yes, I think "7,000 police to protect Angela Merkel during Athens visit" certainly is.
Certainly indicative of this mythical "European Union" eh?
Sorry to upset you merkel is no way like the president in stature what so ever reason there shutting them to protect her life from very angry greeks
Want to see the ceramic circler and the goose strangler show their a@@es? Look over on the Spanish blog.
Those two can't resist gloating and kicking the hispanos in the shins for no other reason than that they can, like two boys with spray paint standing if front of a long white wall.
I posted a couple there, blackening the EU with measure and humor and hopefully a smattering of truth. But those two surprised me. They don't just want to hammer the EU, they were looking for noses to tweak and they found them.
So don't fret that they gang up on the Germanz. They give everybody the business.
"they were looking for noses to tweak and they found them"
So you're not the only one who enjoys a bit of entertainment here, y'Apalachian-Armchair-Pumperbilge-sniffin' Prattler.
Need I remind you that we LIVE here in YERP?
And yes, before they start killing each other, those poor Iberians caught veering round the vortex need to be instructed as to exactly what has dunked them in it, in the hope they will go after the real culprits - the BOTZ of BRUSS (not the Brits, Yanks, Krauts etc.)
So there we are :)
Viva! It is your chance to prove you are worth of your name. To all the dead people here, always impressed by your power which knows no bounds, emotional and intellectual. You have shot dead France, Poland, Germany, Portugal, Czechia, sorry if I forgot/was absent when you did shoot down some more. You have even alluded that you could do it to US, but in another saloon. Draw your colt and prove you are a man of honour, shoot down Britain now, you Billy the Kid.
Yeah, kill'em all. When we run out of EU nations- how many now, 27?- we'll be getting on our cayuse and heading over to the OK Corral in Asia for more deer caught in the headlights. C'mon Sythian princess, pp says you like to ride. EEEE HAWWW!!!!
I'm sure he doesn't want to put UK in the lot, though
You can't kill the deer you've already killed, Viva :) I surrender and run to Polish-Hungarian border. However, I never saw you killing Britain here. If you never do it you cannot claim you are just for the beer and tweaking whatever noses, evenly.
Now, do you mean Scythian? Wow, you are improving, must have been indeed pumpernickle who taught you.
It saddens me to read some of the many, many letter of grievances of British householders that can't afford the gas to heat their houses.
I can't help seeing the correlation (in the land that exalts Harry Potterism and promotes it to their children the way past generations did the Bible) between the fascination of the nation with the occult and its swallowing hook line and sinker the Gaia worshippers' hatred for anything that humans do in this world.
I know you shut down your coal mines long ago, before the Harry Potter books were written and threw your power business to the continent and a few nukes in your hinterlands, but the complete acceptance of the 'carbon neutral' mantra being offered by the Gaia worshippers and the false science crowd is deplorable.
For heaven's sake, give your seniors enough gas to heat their houses this winter.
Never heard about it. Thanks!
Who are you, please :-)
"give your seniors enough gas to heat their houses this winter."
They just need to plug in that dough-faced, very flatulent one, mooning around in Downing St.
Phi. You are supposed to use your gun. Not the balls of creased paper. You either kill them now or you are to remain forever in your chess corner, forever black or white, white or black, discussing passionately about Sunnites, Alawites and all the peoples of Earth you never saw, repeating it all over again 'my whites are better', inventing the greatest military campaignes mankind has seen and dreaming of the horserides on the long gone horses. The choice is yours, Billy.
What are you trying to say? You are far too bright not to make it clear. Billy the Kid is it? Maybe you shouldn't get into the brandy so early in the day.
Yes, Viva. Billy the Kid, the guy who could shoot quicker than human thought. You have all of a sudden became very un-discerning :) You bomb us all with your favourite weapon - nukes of you intellect while all you have for Britain is, well... I told you already what it is. If you chose so, it is okey but please take off the black jersey of the ref.
Well, I had to get you to come right out and say it. You don't think criticizing UK for touting itself as the most carbon-free society on the planet is severe enough?
They had all that North Sea oil and simply consumed it, tacking on huge taxes which they spent. Norway on the other hand saved a vast amount of their receipts from that same oil and today is the envy of the world.
The Brits have proved singularly improvident in this regard and coupled with their current lack of power stations, they deserve to be roundly criticized.
But I can't do it. I never claimed to be more than a chauvinist. I love the British people, my cousins, too much ridicule them. I would simply genty admonish them to get the coal pits open again.
Here, you wear the the black shirt for a while. Keep it turned inside out as I have worn it though or the hair will give you welts.
I'm going to have a cup of coffee and scour the net for cases of Polish failure to recognize and prepare for threats. Let's see, we haven't done liberum veto to death yet.
Thanks for your answer Viva. Understood :) So no pretending anymore you are for the beer here, to tweak whatever nose shows up.
The shirt part was not nice. Learn continental ways :)
See you around.
Pretty nasty, forlana. Even without being able to understand much of what you said it reeks of condescension and hostility. Won't bother to pick apart your petty 'analysis'. Just know that you are exhibiting the behavior you pretend to find annoying in others. Sort of feeble. Still getting the impression you were in the brandy heavily today.
Anyhow, my potato salad was delicious today. Didn't have any cabbage though. Hissed any good America hate jokes lately?
Looks like the grim reaper has been at my comments again, since another slot has opened up miraculously.
Just want to add my voice to the discussion about Turkey. I am grateful to M. Sarkozy for saying clearly in 2007 that France will veto any attempt of Turkey to join the EU. Despite liking the Turks and their country I share the view also with Scholl-Latour, an old ME hand, that Turkey and Europe do not mix.
I also agree with junoir that we have been messing the Turks about and that letting in Greek Cyprus was a major howler and slap in the face to the Turks and can fully understand their going off Europe since. Honesty from the beginning would have been a much better policy but no use crying over spilt milk now.
Erdogan is a dangerous man and may lead Turkey on a dangerous path, if they get involved in the Syrian civil war, a can of worms just like Libya was. Nobody knows what really is going on. For all I know the shots fired on Turkey may well have come from somebody trying to drag Turkey into the war. Gleiwitz comes to mind in 1939.
It seems strange to hear you compare the tightly controlled Nazi army of the '30s with the innumerable factions of Syria. You are right though, no one knows what's going on there.
But one thing is certain, if Turkey becomes embroiled in a wider war, the US will have to take a hand.
This is true because, apart from Turkey being a friend and ally, Russia and Iran are pouring men and materiel into Syria.
Their escalation cannot be allowed to engulf surrounding areas.
It is highly plausible and already evident that Syria is going to be partitioned.
This outcome will be highly interesting to the Kurds of eastern Turkey who have fought so long for self determination.
One peak on the many-headed mountain of mistakes of Europe's politicians has been its treatment of Turkey.
Their failure to bring Turkey more formally into the Western orbit may be measured in the results of Erdogan's election and his subsequent suppression of the Western-oriented military. The rise of Erdogan's Islamic party reveals that Turkey's population has become increasing disaffected toward a Europe that nakedly regards it as unwelcome in its highest institutions and that regards its generations-old immigrant populations as alien.
The momentarily quiescent Islamism of Turkey can be regarded only as an intermission if Europe continues to treat the proud Turks as unworthy of a seat at Europe's table.
Indeed, Turkey's expanding economy and current westward-leaning policies today mask the ancient and undeniable eastward-looking bonds of a nation whose demographic signature stretches into Central Asia, with consequences for Europe that will be profound, either for good or bad.
For Europe to disregard this geographically crucial nation at such a time in history as this is a blunder of the first order.
Taking a hand against Assad, who may be a murderous thug just like Gadaffi, if we believe the Western media, might that not mean supporting Al Qaeda?
In Afghanistan you supported the Taliban and Bin Laden against the Russians. In Syria you are repeating this mistake? Do you want to achieve some kind of Islamic "reunification" of Iran, Iraq and Syria by helping the Shia factions there.
Wait a minute, the Turks are Sunnis, right, so after "liberating" Syria they would then turn against Iraq Shia majority and work in hand with Saddam Hussein's Bath party, all Sunnis?? You are confusing me now, viva.
Let me repeat. It is a can of worms much worse than Libya. What are American aims in Syria? To help the more deadly enemies of Israel to get the upper hand there and, as MC points out correctly, then go after Libanon and Israel?
Did you guys really think this through properly? Think not.
The thrust of the EADS-BAE merger stall seems to be the result German provincialism rearing its head and attempting to seize a chunk of the French share for its own.
Whether France accedes to the German demands, the deal will have to pass the scrutiny of US regulators. BAE has a unique position among European defense companies because of its tight relationship with the US and Britain will surely do nothing to jeopardize this bond.
The US however will look closely at Germany's ongoing and expanding relationships with Russian interests. Should the US continue to offer defense contracts to a company with ties to the despotic regime of Putin?
Better maintain the status quo and let Germany suck a lemon than open up US defense secrets to unfriendly eyes.
Southern Lebanon is occupied by Hezbollah, commanding about fifty thousand missiles as well as hundreds of Iranian shock troops pointed toward Israel.
So, should Assad be removed and Al Q seize southern Lebanon by some (impossible) sleight of hand, can you seriously believe that Al Q could be a worse threat to Israel?
Indeed where is the menace of an Al Q Libya you were so worked up about? Aside from a US ambassador murdered because of Clinton's state department, they have no major support.
But the principle issue under discussion is Turkey and its treatment at the hands of Europe.
Europe and the US must demonstrate unambiguously that they will defend Turkey to the hilt should the need arise. To do otherwise is to undermine a critical ally and endanger a useful relationship of seventy years.
Also, Syria is almost ninety percent Sunni so where is your basis for suggesting that a Syria free of Assad will become a Shia partner of Iran, since, as it happens, Assad is ally to the Shia Iran and Hezbollah? Only if Assad prevails can Iran's imperial design blossom.
Syria's majority is, indeed, Sunni. 74% according to CIA fact book. Not sure in how far they are in opposition to Assad's Alawites. Bin Ladens Al Qaeda also Sunnis, methinks. Makes sense.
Saudis want Assad removed and establish their ownkind to prevent Syria + Iraq + Iran grouping together. So if Turkey goes in they would be the vassals of the Saudis and have Iran, Iraq, Syria, Russia and possibly China against them. US/UK comes in on the Turkish/Saudi side. A regular World War would ensue.
I hope Erdogan is keeping a cool head in this situation.
" ... to defend Turkey to the hilt?"
To defend Turkey from whom, viva?
Turkey could occupy Syria in a couple of weeks and nobody could stop them, if they really wanted to. The other way, Syria attacking Turkey, is a bit far fetched, don't you think?
If BAE thought it would be better off in American hands they would already have gone this way. They have a long experience working with the USA and they never were really happy in this relationship. Why, otherwise, are they looking for European partners? Besides, the Yanks cannot afford to buy them. Neither can the French, as a matter of fact. Perhaps for the Germans just to walk away from the deal would be the right approach and then see what happens.
Wonder how this will play out.
to Pumpernickel on hoping Erdogan keeps his head cool.
So do I, so do I.
Unfortunately History shows that in periods like the one we cross now, there's always somebody who loses their head.
Fasten seat belts, is the only useful advice I can give now.
Bend over and put a pillow between head and knees. I won't do much good but at least you have a feeling you've done all you can.
Think I read that over half of BAE's profits are from US deals. Can only suppose that they are trying to broaden their customer base with this deal. Naturally F and G want to get a finger in the pie as well.
Putin wants to get his eyes on US secrets though so no deal.
"In Afghanistan you supported the Taliban and Bin Laden against the Russians.'
There was no Taliban when the USA was supporting the Afghan rebels against the Soviets.
The Taliban were Afghan war orphans raised in the Islamist madrasses in Pakistan and were babies when the USA was supporting Afghan rebels.
Are you accusing the USA of supplying weapons to babies in Pakistani orphanages?
Similarly there was no Al Qaeda when the USA was supporting Afghan rebels against the Soviets.
After the Soviet withdrawal, the Afghan rebels broke up into several factions, one of those factions led by Osama bin laden created the Al Qaeda AFTER the USA had stopped supporting the Afghan rebels when the Soviets withdrew.
The inhabitants of the land of Goebbels always come with the standard lie of US supported Taliban and Al Qaeda knowing very well that the Taliban and Al Qaeda did not exist at the time of the Soviet-Afghan war.
They do this repeatedly and often in a manipulatiave propaganda attempt to mislead other posters.
"They have a long experience working with the USA and they never were really happy in this relationship"
Wishful thinking is not a substitute for facts.
The fact that they had a long relationship with the USA shows that they were indeed very happy with the USA or otherwise BAE's relationship would have been short as it was with EADS when BAE divested itself of 20% EAD's shares in the past.
Due to military cutback in the USA & Britain, BAE is now forced to look for new partners.
Military budget cuts in the USA has been in the news for a long time now but apparently your anti-Americanism overcame sound logical thinking.
"I am grateful to M. Sarkozy for saying clearly in 2007 that France will veto any attempt of Turkey to join the EU."
I would have thought that your "EUrope" is already dysfunctional enough without worrying yourself about what Turkey wants.
Although it is true that the Turkish military is quite capable of defending its country (let's not forget, this was the only NATO country to border the Soviet Union directly for 45 years) I agree with you that European NATO should demonstrate its willingness and readiness to send assistance.
I do not see "not being dragged into a war" in the Holy Land as a priority.
The local players are far more canny than outsiders and rarely desire war themselves. But NATO and the EU need to pull their own weight in that part of the world and demonstrate they have an influence. That cannot be achieved without military assets. If ever there were a place for intervention by a unified European military - the Holy Land would be the place:
an area of the world delineated by Israel and its immediate neighbours - Syria and Lebanon, and to a lesser extent Jordan and Egypt: all countries with a geostrategic importance far out of proportion to their economic and demographic statistics. At the moment, France and to a lesser extent the UK are the only EU countries with military assets in the region. Italy should be prodded into joining them.
The bombing and killing of five civilians in Turkey changes the game I think. Now western intervention becomes a question not of if but when and how.
"Turkey could occupy Syria in a couple of weeks and nobody could stop them, if they really wanted to. The other way, Syria attacking Turkey, is a bit far fetched, don't you think?"
A Syrian artillery attack has killed five civilians in Turkey. Not to mention the defence and humanitarian emergency of 100,000 Syrian refugees in Turkey with more coming.
We can talk, reason, negotiate, plan and even perhaps dither for a few days/weeks. But a NATO ally has been attacked and we are called upon to offer concrete (and intelligent and coordinated) assistance.
I'm pretty sure US, UK and France have forces in there for one thing or another. Most important is that Ankara knows that NATO is ready with plans for all contingencies and is working for diplomatic solutions.
Turkey's friendship has been courted by Europe's nations for centuries. Amazing to behold the lack of realistic estimation by modern Europeans of the importance of Turkey. Glad to see at least one Ligurian hasn't lost his perspective.
When the Genoese commander Giovanni Giustiniani was fatally wounded and forced to retreat - and Constantinople fell - the Ligurians of Pera/Galata would have had every reason to expect retribution. Instead the Turks treated them well and the Sultan invited all the Genoese to remain to help him re-build "The City". This was a repeat of the fall of Acre in 1291, when the Genoese were the last westerners to leave the city - and were invited by the victorious Sultan to remain.
The Genoese have always considered that the battle to keep Turkey out of Europe was lost in 1453. Where were the French then? Why are they so eager to fight today a battle already lost centuries ago?
Ataturk, probably the greatest leader to come out of the Mediterranean world in the 20th century, took our Garibaldi as his inspiration - and as a man who detested the hypocrisy of priests, was definitely a leader after our own hearts.
Benedict XV, the last Genoese pope - and apparently Ratzinger's favourite - had ordered the French to treat Turkish POW's well during the First World War. For that reason, there is a statue of him in Istanbul, the only statue of a Pope in any Muslim city:
And there are several Turkish multinationals operating in Liguria - including within the military sector, where Italian helicopters are now being supplied to the Turkish Army.
The Moderator deems the following eminently fit for reposting, since you tried to reply:
The reason why the Eurofighter lost the bid for the Indian market against Rafale was entirely down to the usual additional costs and delays entailed by this multinational product (it lost the bidding in Singapore for the same reason a year earlier). So at the point that both aircraft (theoretically almost identical) were evaluated together by the Indian procurers, the French product was more "matured" and had valuable systems ready to go. The Indians made the right choice.
And (it does need to be repeated) any product etiquetted with "Eur" at the beginning of it, civilian or military, enters the game with a severe handicap. The French were even able to coordinate the customary bribery in this market more efficiently:)
So yes, the BAE/EADS merger does not look promising in any respect. I had first-hand experience of Franco-German cooperation in the Munich EADS HQ and the animosity was all-pervasive.. but that was 7 years ago.
Franco-German cooperation does not work, (rather like EMU.) This on-going mess in Munich alone goes back many more years. DASA etc. are nothing but a distant memory. Yes, their animosity has increased, and a British presence would only exacerbate it:)
The French occupy the key positions there rather than give them to local Germans, and for lower positions they follow a system already used in France in operations such as "Eurocopter" near Marseille, where there is a gaggle of subcontracting service companies situated in proximity to the HQ employing poorly paid, unmotivated, international staff on temporary contracts. This was also the case in Munich. I assume also that a lot of their helicopter business in southern Germany has already been moved to Marseille piecemeal.
The result in Munich is that no-one inside EADS knows what is going on because of the lack of continuity and oversight as the disgruntled employees come and go from the local service companies. (The implications for the security of critical development work are mind-boggling, a factor not unnoticed by the Americans.) You only have to check the recurrent identical recruitment ads in the Munich area to see how briefly the service company staffers stay in their jobs. I was repeatedly referred to such subcontractors and their story was same: "some clueless self-promoting chancer has been brought in from France" so that local people became used to the fact that management in EADS is chaotic and that consequently their long-term employment prospects are poor. Working people avoid EADS unless desperate.
BAE's management may be wanting, but to replace it with this is surely not the answer. For British industry it would be as "shot of malaria to cure the flu" – our notoriously crap management really has to get its rotten act together, or find the right partner outside of Yerp.
This is one of your more substantial contributions, didn't notice the 'word' 'bot' used once.
Was just wandering through the stack of coffins containing all my deleted posts that I am free to resubmit. Small loss. The world still keeps on turning. It doesn't hurt. I am brave. Waaaahhh!!!
didn't notice the 'word' 'bot' used once.
U need new spex - you missed one.
Btw, who do you think is doing the deleting?
An oxymoronic "eurobot ultranationalist" walking dialectical shorted fuze has had a hissy fit and is smouldering somewhere, I'll be bound !
@ Birtnick
"the French product was more "matured" and had valuable systems ready to go. The Indians made the right choice".
Can you imagine anyone else on this thread acknowledging that a product from another European country was better than the equivalent produced in his own?
Today is the fourth straight day of artillery exchanges between NATO member Turkey and Iranian proxy Syria.
Fresh evidence if any were needed that Europe is not ready for prime time and for the foreseeable future will remain a dwarf among the powers of the world: our French contributor
feels it's none of France's business and that Turkey should go it alone.
Yet France was one of the nations that sought and obtained US technical support in order to be able to launch an integrated aerial assault on Libya last year.
It is revealing to hear some say 'We want America to support us in their NATO capacity when we have to fight, but we're not going to help America when it comes to the assistance of other NATO members.'
There is no need to mock the Europeans for their lack of cohesion: their do it for us.
"our French contributor feels it's none of France's business and that Turkey should go it alone."
That's because it is not north Africa and the contributor probably considers that French wouldn't dare to try to restrain Turkey single-handedly, as they know they'd get creamed in short order, so they advise everyone else to keep out.
Obversely, they know that the Turks are up to date on the French assistance to the Assad regime, so of course they do not not want too much western attention drawn to that theatre.
Thankfully I think the west is wise enough to give the Turks a long leash to have a crack at stabilising the region, which may well be less messy than all other options. The Turks know where to draw their line, they've been around there for quite a while. They won't go after the oil fields for now - they are patient.
"Fresh evidence if any were needed that Europe is not ready for prime time"?
Hard to imagine that "Europe" (that's Planet Botz- OK?) ever will be.
From what I have read BAE is going for the merger with EADS because of cutbacks in US & British military spending.
They had some bad experiences with EADS in the past but now I guess they are looking at other options.
The origin of the crisis in the eastern Med can be laid ENTIRELY at the door of the Franco-German wondercouple and their 50 year old anti Turkish policies.
Today the chickens are coming home to rust.
I hope North America does not lift a finger over Turkey's possible actions. It does not need to.
The "icing on the cake" will be to show up *EUrope* for what an empty husk it really is, and one that will continue to decompose in the humus of its 50 odd years of boneheaded ideology.
To Junoir on Today the chickens are coming home to rust.
Dear Junoir,
I never thought this day would ever come.
Are you being ironical or is it a typo?
Making lots of them (missing articles, inserting nonsensical words -as my mind meanders- "had" instead of "add" and similar are my specialities) I fully understand you.
But you can't avoid my good natured glee. I had a laugh.
Or do I detect a long forgotten Lancashire accent strain in writing "rust" instead of "roost"?
Or is it a statement that the original English word is better that the common spelling? (if there is any truth in the statement; my OED - old yellowish paper edition- cites the origin of roost as being Old English hrost)
Apologies for leg pulling, but I'm sure you'll laugh about it as much as I did.
to leaveittoviva completely off topic
Remember our very recent exchange about the rear mirror of a Hispano-Suiza and the not rosy picture from Bank of America's top floor?
The Economist has just published EIU's list of best MBA's in the world.
These ranking are worth what they are, and I do not have much faith in them. Yet, the first 8 are USA based, the 9th is Spanish.
Among the first 25, 16 are US based, 3 Spanish (9th, 18th, 22nd), 2 British, 2 French (1 and a half to be precise and silly...)1 Canada, 1 Swiss, 1/2 Singapore.
"Who would have said the old Hispano-Suiza had so much blood in her?" with apologies to the bard for the misuse of the quote.
Never, please, never believe in stereotypes or newspaper headlines. They are made to sell advertising space, rarely to inform properly.
By the way, I'm sure you are aware but many others aren't, I ain't Spanish, have no reason to promote Spain's good name other than having there almost as many good friends as in America and being as much an admirer of their achievements as I am of the US successes.
Besides, I'm stickler for real data and proper stats and do not like deriding any nation or people.
Except of course beastly Ruritanians who have done so much harm to my beloved Fatherland, Borduria.
sanmartinian on chicken coming home the rust
la.virity once wrote this and Junoir thinks it exposes him as non-American, so he keeps mentioning it this way.
"The chickens are coming home to roost".
We agreed some time ago among the regulars here that in view of the way this expression has been massacred over the past two years, ALL alternatives will be accepted. Perhaps you missed that.
We have witnessed 'roost', 'roast', 'rest' and 'rust'.
My 'rust' was just to keep the tradition alive, so to speak.
While our French contributor continues to crouch behind her nuclear Maginot Line when it comes to discussing France doing anything for anybody but France, and our German contributor feels that the apex of cleverness is shirking NATO responsibilities, one of their neighbors appears to be on to something:
"Ueli Maurer, the Swiss defense minister, has been making coy statements about the European crisis getting ugly – as in really ugly, like needing armed troops to deal with it. This sounds more like Greece, where the rioting is regular and increasingly scary, than anything in Central Europe, but where the whole EU furball is headed does seem less than clear of late. The Swiss are famous for preparing for everything and having an absolutely huge army, relative to their population, to deal with any eventuality. It's easy to dismiss the Swiss, since they are a tiny country whose military hasn't actually fought anybody in a couple centuries. On the other hand, they managed to stay out of both of Europe's catastrophic World Wars precisely though preparing for eventualities and maintaining a strong defensive capability. They're clearly on to something."
To reiterate, the Swiss were demonstrably able to stay out of wars by preparing for war and letting their larger neighbors know that they were ready for war.
How ironic that by being demoralized by the past and weakening their willingness to fight, the French and Germans are heading down a path that may lead them to yet another grim episode in the cycle of arrogance and apathy that characterizes the history of Europe!
"I hope North America does not lift a finger over Turkey's possible actions. It does not need to".
Dead right. Whether it's Obama or Romney, I hope the US steers well clear of this one.
The same goes for Britain too, which has contributed more than its fair share to European defence since 1945, only to be told it is 'not European' and the peace in Europe over the past 50 years is all down to the EU.
If anything needs to be done, let Wonderwoman sort it out. After all, isn't Germany now claiming world power status along with the US and China?
'I hope the US steers well clear of this one.'
Turkey has the largest army in the region, well armed and trained. But if a prolonged wider war breaks out, Turks will reasonably look to the US and we will respond.
Not just because Turkey is in NATO and a staunch ally, but because Iran's proxy Syria cannot be seen to attack others with impunity. Weakness and vacillation only embolden aggressors.
Clearly the Middle East is headed for another paroxysm of violence. Our friends must know they can rely on us. France and Germany will watch like vultures for opportunities or make token gestures to appease the US.
Perhaps only Britain of the larger European nations will offer meaningful assistance. You know, it's not just the material support that matters but the perception of a united front that gives the aggressor pause and gives our friends the confidence to assert their rights.
Half of war is psychological. That's why North Vietnam drove the US out of Vietnam. Logically the US should have won. Hopefully we have learned a few lessons since then, including that of Iraq.
We can intervene and prevail without massive numbers of troops, but only if we are in it from the start and fully committed. That way, if we don't discourage the Iranians and their proxies from attacking Turkey, at least the Turks will have the confidence and wherewithal to prevail.
With Iran and Russia pouring massive amounts of all types of weapons and even troops into Syria to buttress Assad, it is curious to hear voices from the martial UK speak of avoiding full support for a NATO member and fellow European nation.
If the progressive Europeanizing nation currently occupying the Anatolian glacis (that shields Europe from direct confrontation with the expansionistic and virulently Islamic states of the Middle East) drifts out of the Western orbit, the calamity will be greater than the loss of Iberia to the Moors in the eighth century or the loss of the Balkans to the Turks in the fifteenth.
Sobieski and Roland would be disappointed.
To junior on chickens getting iron oxide (rust)
I did miss your previous exchange.
However as as far as I know "roost" is the English word (anywhere in the world) for the wooden, steel or aluminium rod where birds rest.
The expression as recognized by dozens of on-line dictionaries (Ah! if it weren't for Google!) is always "to roost" following one of the basic traits of modern English: to make a verb out of a name.
That's why English is the only language I know that has no specific ending for verbs. You can get almost any word to become a verb.
(In the romance languages and German this is totally impossible; verbs have to end in three or four specific endings.I believe something similar applies to Scandinavian languages although "gå" puzzles me. It's te gaan in Dutch and Vlaamse).
So"chickens come home to stand on the roost" or in standard English to "roost".
"To roast," well, we know that unless they boil, it is their standard destiny but that's a bit unkind to think of it.
"To rest" is far kinder but honestly they tend to rest with legs inserted under the carriage like planes flying.
"To rust"! Poor things! And poor us: never saw an chicken made of carbon steel and if they were made of stainless they would never rust....
Never get an engineer talking of language; nonsense is bound to come out of it...
to enlisted on chickens and "rust"
I copy and paste my reply to Junoir so you are spared the hassle of looking for my important views on this momentous subject.
It is far more important than Turkey and Syria.
There's nothing we can do there except for people like you and I, pray.
Copy of mail to Junoir:
"To junior on chickens getting iron oxide (rust)
I did miss your previous exchange.
However as far as I know "roost" is the English word (anywhere in the world) for the wooden, steel or aluminium rod where birds rest.
The expression as recognized by dozens of on-line dictionaries (Ah! if it weren't for Google!) is always "to roost" following one of the basic traits of modern English: to make a verb out of a name.
That's why English is the only language I know that has no specific ending for verbs. You can get almost any word to become a verb.
(In the romance languages and German this is totally impossible; verbs have to end in three or four specific endings.I believe something similar applies to Scandinavian languages although "gå" puzzles me. It's te gaan in Dutch and Vlaamse).
So "chickens come home to stand on the roost" or in standard English to "roost".
"To roast," well, we know that unless they boil, it is their standard destiny but that's a bit unkind to think of it.
"To rest" is far kinder but honestly they tend to rest with legs inserted under the carriage like planes flying.
"To rust"! Poor things! And poor us: never saw a chicken made of carbon steel and if they were made of stainless they would never rust....
Never get an engineer talking of language; nonsense is bound to come out of it..."
Mod will repost for MC who is banned by TE
Get your facts right they are spreading fast in europe and Wahabists pay for
most of the Madresses and train most of the imams and supply the eduction
books.Saudi Arabia spends billions of dollars each in europe that way
Same here. My post to my brother zorbas, on the invitation of the Mods, herewith reposted:
Next Tuesday will be the day. The Empress who wears no clothes is expected to visit the Acropolis. Are the Schwarz-Rot-Gold flags already put in place and distributed to the population, who will be attending in their millions, as they are given 4 hours of no work so they do not miss the festivities.
Claro she will bring her own police for protection, since Greek police would happily watch the Frau being torn to pieces by the Minotaur, the Greek popolos, shouting "Give us back our gold".
Claro she will also bring her own wrapped sandwiches for to trust the Greek cooks whose public wages are threatened to be cut by perhaps 50% not to do something unspeakably wicked with the soup would require a pure leap of faith by the Frau and her entourage. What courage to enter the goats' den at this time of the tragedy, when the Greek chorus is about to exclaim … "Agamemnon has been slaughtered by the Frau."
Will we see her again in one piece? The Greek Volkszorn, can it be contained when the embodiment of all that is evil and wicked in the Greeks' perception is standing in front of them in her Hosenanzug. Not Hera, Kassandra her. There will be a an explosion, Vulcan will speak in a thunderous voice: "We want our next cheque … or else" and the Frau will smile and promise as much.
zorbas, your move.
Great minds think alike brother. With the permission and invitation of the Mods, reposting my new and slightly improved response as well:
In other words Pumper, Merkel will be the girl in the protective plastic bubble. No surprised there. It has been quite some time since the Greek politicians have been able to show their faces in pubic as well.
Not to worry, we know they all work for the banksters, and yet, the worst we Greeks do, is occasionally fit our politicians for a yogurt cap, perhaps with a smattering of egg, according to one's tastes in such matters.
Of course when polled, Greeks by a large majority still prefer to remain in the Euro. Why? Because they understand that there is no other viable option, and/or perhaps they remember the good old easy money days, which of course will be late to return, if they ever return at all.
If I recall correctly, the Drachma used to be pegged to the DM back in the day. There will be no such logistical support this time. So returning to the drachma is not a viable option, at least not yet.
I for one wish they could, but then again, I'm not so concerned about the value of Greek Real Estate. What was priceless to me before, will always remain priceless to me. Those that want money should work for it.
You hold Real Estate. You don't sell. Never took the easy way out. The banks want Greece in. Merkel and Samaras work for the banks. Thus we have ourselves a marriage of convenience if ever there was one!
So, the Greeks must learn to do what the rest of the western world does. We will put our accountants to find legal tax loophole, the emphasis being on LEGAL of course, and prosecute the hell out of those fools who so flagrantly stole on the past. A Greek politician and his choice of rope I call it, unwept unsung.
That a boy Samaras! Walk the walk, talk the talk, and the money will flow, with the permission of the ECB to finance the difference with short-term bond auctions of course.
The fix is in. Only the banksters can provide the remedy, with one small precondition: We must agree to sell Greek assets on the cheap, and the troika of course are providing the much needed austerity to make everything in Greece real cheap right quick too.
One sticking point though, we have a simple liquidity problem that needs to be addressed by the end of November is all, to be followed by yet another liquidity problems that will need to be remedied as well.
But the real remedy, another restructuring of the debt, will need to be worked around the German election cycle of course. So, where do we sign to get on board for the economic miracle to follow...laughs
PS - Quit smoking yesterday. Feel a little better already. Off for a walk in the harbor to smell that wonderful sea air, and then a wonderful bowl of pasta with my famous sauce for supper!
Seems all the nasty things I said to you over the past several hours have simply gotten up and walked away.
Too desolated to repost. Please save me some trouble.
Imagine all the rotten things I have said you before and throw in a couple of personal insults and racial slurs. There, that about does it.
You peaked my interest. Can I see? I promise not to tell...laughs
"Of course when polled, Greeks by a large majority still prefer to remain in the Euro. Why? Because they understand that there is no other viable option, and/or perhaps they remember the good old easy money days, which of course will be late to return, if they ever return at all."
My guess is, a compromise of sorts has been reached.
Two years ago Sarkozy had forced Merkel to relent after she insisted on the No-Bailout Clause to be observed. She agreed in the interest of saving the banks but insisted on the Greeks taking their medicine. The Greeks said YES but otherwise did nothing, since they knew it was mainly about the banks. Only 20% or so of the monies would be made available to Greece with the rest diverted to French, German, Swiss etc. banks. Of the monies made available for Greece most probably ended up in the pockets of the "elites". Only a trickle reached the Greek people.
On the other hand there was real help forthcoming in allowing the Greeks to default on 80% of their debt, when mostly private investors suffered, except the ones that refused, like some British and American hedge funds (correct me if I am wrong, Josh) but this controlled default was in the main protecting GS, JPM and other mostly American and British banks holdings CDS. A non-controlled default would have made them liable to cough up a few trillions on the multiple bets, which would have imploded the world there and then.
Zorbas, are the Greek people fully aware of these circumstances or are they really "ze Germanz are to blame for everything" dumbos. Are they that thick?
In the meantime, the Greeks and Greek Cypriots cleverly played the Russian and China card and brought in the geo strategical aspects of their position in Mare Nostrum when it was decided
by the NATO countries to save them come what may. So all the monies being released to Greece, no questions asked, are perhaps to be considered a military matter and not an economic matter any longer. The Greeks have it made, or have they? Cold Turkey would have been the better strategy. Now it may be Hot Turkey they may be getting because if Turkey really is doing the unthinkable and going Osmanic again and probably cut through the Syrian defence like a hot knife cuts through butter they might decide to use Cyprus as their naval base to the west of Syria. ALL Cyprus. This is what worries me, viva, junoir. In which case we will have two NATO countries at each others' throat. What will the rest of NATO do then?
PS: Glad to hear you quit smoking. Best way to be able to enjoy a cigar from time to time on the big occasions without getting hooked. Takes character :-)
Care to tell us all about your particular pasta sauce recipe?
"Zorbas, are the Greek people fully aware of these circumstances or are they really "ze Germanz are to blame for everything" dumbos. Are they that thick?"
Well, let's face facts here Pumper, the Greek electorate is a thick as the German electorate, which is a thick as the American electorate...
This is how the banksters have their way with all of us. You can bank on the majority of the people in each of our nations being too thick and/or too preoccupied to bother to take the time to understand what is really being done to them, and by whom.
But it is the Greek people who are suffering more then any other people from this self serving internal deflation bankster policy of austerity. Therefore the noose needs to be loosened, and quickly too. Greece is too small a nation to make such a large fuss about.
The 80% figure is inflated of course. Just the very fact that we're talking only about private investors, tells us that this restructured was just the tip of the iceberg, and with the economy shrinking so rapidly, another restructuring of the debt is in the making, but after the German election of course.
One of my themes over the years has been "The Illusion of Political Choice". It's not just an American, or a German, or a Greek theme. It's a global phenomena. There's a master plan at work here, and it has very little to do with politics as usual on any of our national fronts.
Greece is the project being welcomed into the fold now. So, watch for more politically timely debt restructuring within the Euro. They could have made it easier on themselves by preparing the road ahead, but not enough time, and politically, it just wasn't feasible.
The one constant in modern Greek history is this: She has been given just enough space to breath, but never more, and has managed to survive, but barely.
So, we're not leaving. We are dirt poor, except for a few corrupt untouchable elites, but we're not allowed to leave.
The New World Order, of which Germany is a member, wants us in. No surprised there. It's a geopolitical issue more then anything else, but that's how these things work.
So, look for future debt restructuring within the Euro for both public and private bond holders. It's being done step by step, because to do it all at once, would have been too much for the markets and the German electorate to digest.
A lot of mistakes were made along the way, but the corrections are being made, although be it too slow for my proactive monetary policy American tastes.
PS - "Helicopter Ben" some genius wrote, as if that should actually mean something in and of itsel.
And I assume we are to believes that Ben had a myriad of options available to him, and chose to implement the most expensive one, when the bottom fell out of the global markets, because... What exactly, and please don't answer, I have a HI IQ again.
You see Pumper, all too many people are idiots. It's the one constant you can set your watch by. Of course the few smart ones are way too busy making money to even bother to awaken them from their slumber.
After all, an idiot's financial death is a smart man's financial gain. If we were all smart, how could anyone make a living?
As a whole, the Greeks are just too financially savvy, and a little too paranoid too, but given their history, who can really blame them...laughs
Thank you MOD will repost that for pumpernikel
Your comment:
Yes 14 airports that have never been used or have been shutdown and there
coupon rates rise and fall between 5 half % and 6% coupon each week and there
holdings and are dependent one day on the ECB buying there worthless junk so
there spreads are not manageable what so ever and they will need a bail out
but are to arrogant to do so yet so Germany will be more on the line once
again to guarantee spain junk debt and in the long term is not manageable
because private sector sits on 4 trillion euro of private sector debt plus
regional and government GND so the EZ cutting debt please dont make me laugh
its increasing,As to the USA being F-----D have you checked out the EZ lately
so try looking at the down trodden of euroland and German imposed economic
harshness and dithering since the crises exploded in euroland,I do hope
merkel has a pleasant trip to greece and enjoys her welcome from Greeks who
depend on food kitchens may be she will visit one.As to waisted billions of
euro that go on grand projects little wounder that why the EZ is trouble.
You have all heard of bunker-bots, feeder-bots and a host of other bot variants, but there is a new strain – the bogus-bot or spoof-bot.
It's on manoeuvres here: http://www.economist.com/comment/1671715#comment-1671715
It's called "Duchesse".
Maybe it's Marie having a laugh.
Perhaps I should try one out, as they seem to be an good implement for ridiculing the "EU".
you should know that I'm not a Duchesse but a Villan
Well the EUROBOTS dont mind sucking money out of the EU tax payer do they
MC delighted to see you have yet again have a new account tell me where you banned once again for your trolling and racist views.
Europe's moral hazard lies in its disregard for the plight of some of its nations undergoing economic and social disintegration.
Fascism is rising in Greece and Hungary and others.
Separatism is emerging in Spain.
It is from small sparks that holocausts arise.
The illusion that borders can retain order on one side while excluding the death and destruction flourishing on the other is dangerous and evil.
How much of the euro poison will the nations of Europe partake as a sacrament to the false god of atheistical millennialism?
Will the banks devour the nations and produce their usual fruit of desolation or will decent people escape the anesthetic of affluence and the delusion of normalcy to stop the slide into war?
Oh, and that other European nation, Turkey, is trading fire with Iran's proxy, Syria, raising the specter of NATO intervention.
Europe must prepare a plausible military response to such events without indefinitely looking to America to do its dirty work or it will continue to be the pawn and plaything and laughingstock of the great powers.
'Money is tight right now. But when we can afford it we are going to have a strong military.' Pathetic. There is never a good time to sacrifice, but the rewards of failure to prepare in a timely fashion, as with Britain in 1939, are proverbial.
The unbridled revelry that echoed last week through the European media with the Ryder cup win of European chimera vs. the US nation was revealing.
That Europeans so completely channel their collective natural desire for dominance into a game rather than the realities of the world must rankle every thoughtful supporter of a European superstate.
Europe's moral hazard? What it has been since Agamemnon: Arrogance and complacency by turns. That formula for remaining on the wheel of suffering has never changed and never will as long as the illusion of thinking 'we are special, it's different this time' continues to beset the European.
Turkey want's us to get involved into her domestic war, that has no humanitarian agenda. We do not want to let NATO being caught in it.
You go if you want to, since I also read american military sites, I didn't find any sympathy for the Turks ambitions in this occurency.
I don't think you ought to allow Pumpernickel call you 'ma puce' in the light of your link below, the Spiegel article "Why German Unification was a Mistake" . Between France, the UK, Italy, Spain and the former west Germany, a happy balance of power was achieved which made for harmony in Europe, a harmony which has now been shattered. The importance of balance of power has proved its validity once again.
France was Germany's 'puce' just so long as there was a semblance of equality between the two countries; now it looks more like a 'Beauty and the Beast' relationship. This is beginning to dawn on the French establishment as it faces the prospect of passing a law which it knows it can't apply (Rajoy at least made it clear that he had no intention of keeping to the criteria of the Budget Pact once he had signed it) .
Ayrault might as well say the same to the 'Assemblée Nationale' next week. "Look you fellows, there's no way we can apply Merkel's crap to France, but let's just sign it anyway. When we've ignored it, I'll come on TV, like the other evening, and BORE everyone to death, because I am the most BORING Prime Minister since Maurice Couve de Murville, just as I was once the most BORING teacher of GERMANZ ever to have been employed by the Education Nationale".
Thank you for keeping it interesting, junior.
I didn't read the Spiegel article but do get the gist: Balance of Power.
I do not really understand why people made so much of reunification. If anything, it has weakened us as a nation. Imagine Italy would just be the North, a rich and affluent land full of little Benvenuto Cellinis or Michelangelos, and suddenly it would be "reunited" with its mezzo giorno and would have to increase income taxes on each Northern Italian by 7.5% and pay 60 billion Euros each year to spend on infrastructure and re-education of two lost generations with the result that some of them turn extreme right again.
Don't get me wrong. I cried when the wall came down and still am glad it did but did it make us stronger as a nation, elevate us in a different bigger class than our neighbours? I would be hard pressed to see how.
Perhaps in another 20 years when we get it right with the help of the many British young intellectuals who come to Germany now to study, as it is not affordable any more to do back in Britain, many of whom falling in love with the charms of the local Fräuleins whose cooking skills are so superior to the beans on toast brigade back home and soon will be naturalized as you may have been in France, acquire a German passport and pass on to us their Doric chins and passion for democratic mores, of which we are so lacking.
Oh come all you young, downtrodden Britons full of beans to the uplands of European culture, Germany where you will soon be conquered by German Gemütlichkeit, Nürnberger Rostbratwurst with Sauerkraut and Bratkartoffeln and a womanhood the opposite of the frigid kind you encounter in the pubs of Chelsea. Here is the link:
"Turkey want's us to get involved into her domestic war, that has no humanitarian agenda."
The USA never wanted to get involved in a Turkish domestic war (if you meant the Kurds), but you'd have to agree that in the real world the "Turkish method" stands a better chance of bringing stability to their part of the near East in most other respects than some euro-ballsup would.
Possibly NATO will give Turkey tacit support to go it alone to see what it produces.
Meanwhile any Turkish intiative will put plenty of eurobot noses out of joint which can only be for the good:)
Hmm, I remember your tip to Turkey last Christmas, and how much sympathy for her you expressed.
Like I wrote on a american blog, Turkey has the means to make war alone, without dragging us into her shceme.
Of course the Turks are nostalgic of their former empire, the Great Syria was their extended "pâturages", whereas water wasn't a cause of concurrence, and today of conflict.
Assad is supported by Iran, who is also a country that wants to extend its influence in ME. So the possible war would become a war Turkey vs Iran. The Turks know that Iran is still the "evil" power, defined by the neocon politicians, and want to press on this opportunity to get some worshipping from the western world.
In my mind, the Iranians, Shias, are more tolerant for non muslim religions, than the Sunnites Turk, and those from the emirates , Egypt, and Saudi Arabia are. The Turks also try to move their pawns into these sunnites Muslim countries too.
If we want to caricature what is at stakes there, it's the Sunnites vs the Shia conflict.
Let them do their mess, we'll deal with the aftermaths.
These countries aren't under our influence control anymore, the only tie that we heve there, it's Israel, so far Israel lobbied the US to harm Iran, but I wouldn't give a damn of Isrel skin, if Turkey wins the war. Me thinks that they should not poor oil on the fire there, since Egypt has a revenge to play from the 7 days war.
Ayrault's governement will have a short life
Vals might become the new PM, and he is much more efficient.
He isn't the kind to make "atermoiements" procrastination, and langue de bois.
Dunno how much he worships the franco-german friendship, but as a immigrant from Catalonia, I bet that he doesn't care, and will do what is necessary to preserve France sovereignity.
boff, poor Germanz, that are still the victims of their bellicose neighbours, the Kaiser thought so too.
France couldn't bomb Libya last year without the US.
But when Turkey is attacked you say, 'Go it alone!'
Why am I not surprised?
The selfish European.
And you want to see Israel absorb the revenge of Egypt.
And ugly comment considering the slaughter of the Jews by the French during the war.
Generations of continental western Europeans have grown up with the USA doing the dirty work so they think it is their God given right to expect other countries to do the dirty work to keep Europe safe from the barbarians at the gate.
Poor Marie, thinks Turkey is going to keep the barbarians at the gate by taking care of Syria's Assad for Europe.
If that happens, Turkey will rule the middle-east and will became a formidable foe for Europe. Turkey is becaming more and more Islamist. This is a country where Mein Kampf was the number one best seller.
blah blah blah
what I responded to one of your compatriots that was gloating for the same reasons on DT
"NO, it's the US that didn't wanted to be left over, remember, Clinton was against any military intervention, then suddenly when Sarkozy and Cameron were pushing the UN resolution, she decided to be in. Still the US operated a few days after that the french and brit planes had launched the first attacks,at the very moment of the summit in Paris, the french planes were attacking Gadhfi tanks around Benghazi."
"The US involvement into the libyan campain made it a total war, whereas, France and UK forecasted, previously, to bomb defined targets. The purpose was still to avoid that Gadhafi could slaughter his population, not to eliminate him from the planet at all costs."
"Besides we already crushed a Gadhafi site in 1986 with success
"Le 15 février 1986, l'ordre fut d'attaquer Ouadi Doum fut donné dans la soirée. Le lendemain, à l'aube, les Jaguar de l'escadron de chasse 1/11 Roussillon, épaulés par des Mirage F1C chargés de leur protection, décollèrent de Bangui, avec un seul réservoir auxiliaire de 1.200 litres sous leur fuselage pour les 1.500 km à parcourir, d'où la nécessité des C135FR.""
Bizarre, even Reagan in 1981 couldn't decide to get rid of Gadhafi when the French offered him the deal
"The US Might can't even get rid of the Talibani, nor to pacify Irak, let me laugh, without France and UK, the libyan campain would have been a fiasco for the US"
oh BTW, we didn't slaughter any Jew in France, but Germany did, not in France, in Poland and in Germany.
We still managed to save 75% of them, while the ve=irtuous satellits of Germany only did for 5%
you're a bad mouthing if we don't endorse your bigot policy.
You aren't living in Europe, and you have a distorbed appreciation of the stakes through your new bor Christians neocon medias
Marie, French and British jets weren't able to attack certain critical targets in Libya until US electronic warfare capabilities made it possible to approach them without being targetted and shot down.
The US holds the high ground everywhere, including the earth, the moon and Mars. France may be able to just barely hold on to its own hexagonal ass, but just barely.
Without the US, mon general, France's rage is that of a dreaming sheep.
Well if Turkey initiates an attack (I mean real one like an invasion) not just retaliation in self-defence like a few days ago, then NATO is under no treaty obligation to get involved.
No the nazi slaughtered the jews the french rounded up french jews like my grandfather and family and sent most of them to there deaths there own countrymen.Please dont give me that BS
"Plumper's levity betrays the true extent of his concern for a united Europe".
'levity' ? I think you mean delirious laughter of the sort that overcame James Mason (spy code-named ' Cicero') in the movie, "Five Fingers", as he contemplated the worthless, forged sterling he had been paid by the Germans for services rendered. He then threw the notes over the balcony of his apartment in Rio, where he had taken refuge, laughing hysterically at his own stupidity.
So it is with our Pumperfellah, as he tears up the failed treaties, worthless EU laws, the asinine directives on the shape of bananas and working hours, the thousands of pages of crap and the dozens of newspaper articles from all over the world ridiculing the EU for the joke organization that it is, one in which he placed so much faith.
Laugh or weep, I often do both at the same time when I read yet another article on how "everyone is going to sign another treaty".
* BTW, an excellent film and a true story.
James Mason, another fine American actor. Worked for that branch of the FBI, MI-5. The MI stands for the American tv series Mission Impossible I believe. Didn't Hollywood turn that one out in '54?
Lots of posts departed to the tomb of forgotten ideas. I think the little wounder has been at work. What a waist.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm James Mason was a Brit
Autumn's leaves are swept away by the tempest,
and only their empty branches remain,
clattering in the wind.
The wounder's sharp razor slips across our thoughts.
Now only a thin red line remains,
where there was once a clutter.
A night filled with black monuments descends.
Uncertainty causes our steps to freeze
In a wasteland of forgotten phrases.
" ...In a wasteland of forgotten phrases."
Whoever the swine is that invents all kinds of reasons to remove our pearls, its main motive is jealousy for, being a swine it hates our pearls thrown in front of it. Grunt, grunt.
Most likely it is the one with bots on his mind. Mediocrity incarnate, forever circling the ceramic, full of potty language,
as MC, I am sure, will confirm discernfully.
Another option is la cerise noire who simply hates anybody with an IQ twice hers, say from 120. Anything reeking of higher intelligence or, horror of horrors, originality, is hated but copied copiously, when opportune.
Unless, of course, it is Maher, the Catcher in the Rye, weeding out anything he deems unfavourable to the image of the TE. Not only is he not apt at giving injections, he is also a bit of a thicko when it comes to judge what is or is not good for TE click rates.
Anybody can think of other potential culprits?
No matter how sweet the song or shrill
No matter how deep the thought or shallow
The wounder is there to delete, to kill
This altogether obnoxious fellow
or lass
@ Pumpernickel
A good article from der Spiegel which accurately refers to English (and not British) students. As you know, university tuition in Scotland is free because the Scots are so oppressed and down-trodden that they have succeeded in wangling money from the English tax-payer to finance their higher education, while the English pay hefty fees.
University fees in Germany will go the way they have in England, as the market price for tuition will have to be applied in time. How else will they make ends meet? Our governments are all broke, aren't they? English universities are well ranked in the world, as you know, but depend far too much on foreigners for their funding, particularly the Chinese. I think a degree that has had to be paid for in full makes for higher expectations from students and more committed lecturers. The Americans got this right long ago.
@ Pumpernickel
So by studying in Germany, a Brit would scale the 'uplands of European culture', would he? As Josh would say, "nice try".
As a proclaimed Anglophile, which of course you are not, you will be aware of how Britain's universities are ranked in the world compared to Germany's. In that case is it not easier to scale those cultural 'uplands' in the UK than in Germany?
BTW, British culture has world-wide appeal, whether we're talking about Shakespeare, Harry Potter or some of the world's best TV documentaries. Even our friend Joe has pointed out that the British film industry earns more money than German car manufacturing. It's all about fantasy and imagination, PP, like James Bond (50 years old this month).
Oh dear, I could go on, but won't.
Do you think "Robert Chesters" ( the fellow in your Spiegel article) will be told repeatedly in Germany that he comes from a country that "doesn't make stuff"? Apparently whenever a Brit meets a GERMANZ this is what happens. In fact I'm sure you do this yourself whenever you visit the UK, starting with the immigration officer.
That is nice the Eurobots club is back,Using TE like a facebook page once again.
Right Because you contribute with so much . Especially your mumblings about the delusion you have that you understand finance and that you make money ou of the eurozone crisis . LOL
like your long winded rants and raves about poor little Portugal and your ever long winded about how your bankrupt country was picked on by the markets,Dont worry i take no notice of your rants and raves.Still stalking i see and using multi accounts as always.
viva, zorbas, josh, LV
Saw some video clips on the exchanges between Obama and Romney and cannot really see this proclaimed victory for Romney on the subjects discussed, where Obama seems to hold the stronger cards.
It is true that body language wise Romney appeared more relaxed. I accord this to his intake of some confidence building stuff, whilst Obama, perhaps does not feel he needs such stimulation and, thus, appeared less confident.
Anybody else saw the exchange? What is your verdict?
Romney is a mormon. He doesn't take anything. period.
Please don't project your hedonistic lifestyle on others.
Folks have you seen this Democrat attack ad on Romney called "Miss Swiss bank account".
Apparently the Swiss are not amused.
It's always that way Pumper. Obama's the standing President. He has the weight of the world on his shoulders. Romney's interviewing for the job, not a care in the world.
Of course he thinks he can do better then Obama. Just wait if and when he gets the job. The hair dye jobs can stop, and then we will all say: What a difficult job. Look, his hair even turned grey...laughs
You got a point.
Obama looked tired and listless as if a crisis had kept him up the whole night.
Now I know why Marie has been laying low all day. She has caused to be deleted some spicy posts of mine to which she was unable to respond by any other means. Such a loss to the literary firmament. Sigh.
My dear lemon meringue pie, why do you suffer yourself to go to such lengths? I won't even need to avail myself of reposting them. Don't you know I am an endless volcano of such disparagements, disconsolations, discomfitures and distortions?
All you efforts to subdue me only make my lava boil hotter.
Make nice, come back, pretend as if nothing happened. Be my diligent student and soon you will know all. But ah, ah, ah, remember I am faithless and fly after every bright object. You will never have Napoleon a la tete de la armee as long as I abound.
Wow, this Golden Dawn party has really gone insane.
A Golden Dawn spokesman beat up a female politician on live TV during a talk show.
Yep, I've seen this sort of thing before, and he claims it's justified, because she provoked him. Can you imagine? We have a very sordid history with communists and fascists fighting for power in Greece.
If Tsipras is elected, these fascist will come out of the wood work and total civil chaos may very well follow. It's the nuclear option that the banks have failed to figure into their spreadsheets. This is why Mr Arcadian was telling us about securing his home. The potential for violence is a very real reality for most Greeks.
Did you ever see the movie Eleni, the Nicholas Gage story? We have a very bloody civil history. Greek on Greek crimes were committed. A spark could easily set that off again, with what they are putting us through to pay their banks.
PS - That female politician is one hardcore communist pain in the behind by the way, but of course there are no set of circumstances where that sort of behavior can be justified, and yet, I've even heard some Greek women say, "she had it coming". I'm telling you Emma, Greeks are some of the most feisty SOBs I've ever met. Present company excluded of course...laughs
Yes, zorbas and no, viva.
Do we judge a man by how he performs as a trained monkey pumped full of whatever makes him tick - look at his eyes and the size if his pupils when the camera gets near. Mormons don't do that? Period? My foot. Period. - or by the many silly comments, howlers or downright arrogant, insulting statements right out of the book of Ayn Rand, dismissing roughly half of the nation as parasitical spongers who will always vote for the fleshpots and, therefore, do not merit any soliciting.
Would this despised lot really change their mind just because Romney looks better when put on the spot, as if this was in any way indicative of character or even presence of mind. Perhaps some clever clog in Obama's entourage told him "Don't look the actor in this debate. Leave this bit to Romney. They will soon see through him. Be humble. Then you will not only win the humble who humbly support you anyway but some of the humbles from the other side as well, in which case you can't lose". Too far fetched? Chess think? Probably.
The incumbent always is vulnerable, because he has something to lose. The incoming guy has nothing to lose and can come out swinging. Two more debates. Patience. It's a bit like in the chess games between viva and me, where I am defending my position as the one with the most wins whilst he is trying, never gives up like Maher but not quite making it, despite being the "black belt", the one with the reputation. All I and Obama have to do is defend our ground in an unhurried way and wait for the bright kid to make the mistakes.
They should introduce tests for illegal substances like during the Olympics or the Tour de France also for these debates.
Sorry for your discommendation. I was wrong. I thought you were being snotty at me and all along it was.....
I pay because I'm French. Tell me how many French stay long on TE?
"The incumbent always is vulnerable, because he has something to lose".
The 20th century shows the opposite to be true. The incumbent is nearly always elected for a second term, enjoying certain advantages like four years' experience in office behind him and acquired self-confidence.
The only exceptions were Ford in 1976, who was president by default anyway and made the exceptional gaffe of declaring that the USSR had no influence in eastern Europe, and Jimmy Carter whose mismanagement of the Iranian hostage crisis in 1980 finished him off.
The other one was incumbent G. Bush Sr who failed against Clinton in 1992, but only because his vote was split by the unusual presence of a 3rd candidtae, Ross Perot.
I wouldn't worry about who result. The real winner will be
Government Sachs.
Yours sincerely,
"The Chinless Wonder".
Tell the Greeks to prepare a reserve of tomatoes for this opportunity
Very true Junior.
And all this hype about the debate has been whipped up by the media in order to get more viewers. When the polls started showing Obama with a big lead in swing states, the election started getting boring so the media jumped at the chance of a unexpected Romney win in the debates to make it more exciting and get more viewers.
Obama is actually a pretty darn good debater as his clashes with McCain and especially with Hilary Clinton show. He will be back on the top of his game by the next two debates.
I think Obama like the rest of us had fallen for the media manufctured tales of gaffe prone Romney.
These are two experienced and occomplished candidates. Never forget that Romney was once a governor of the most liberal state in America and did a pretty good job of it.
Actions count more than words. Romney as governor was a centrists who gave the state its first comprehensive healthcare program, a feat countless other democratic governors had been unable to do.
If Romney becames president, he will act as he did when he was governor - a firm pragmatic centrist.
And if Europeans think Romney will be a Bush 11, they like Pumpy are woefully ignorant of Romney's record as governor - can anyone imagine Bush coming up with a comprehensive healthcare program?
And if they are fearing a repeat of Bush 11 as in Iraq, they are terribly ignorant of Romney. Shhh..don't tell the Iranians but Mormons NEVER serve in the military, Romney will be even more reluctant than Obama to use military force.
Never mind all the words Romney has to throw at his base to get their support like the 47% remark. Actions count more.
"Mormons NEVER serve in the military, Romney will be even more reluctant than Obama to use military force".
An interesting observation. Does that mean that if ever he were to become president, military force would only be used abroad in exceptional circumstances, which he would still oppose, but would be compelled to authorise? In other words, military intervention only if national security is at stake?
Isolationism. Just what you've been clamouring for for two years now, eh?
I too think Obama will probably win. He won't make the same mistake twice of being so unprepared and the next two debates should be a lot more interesting.
Huh. Does Mormon church forbid waging a war? If so, I'm not comfortable with Romney taking up the office of the Commander in Chief. At all.
Have you ever heard of a mormon general?
I mean there are mormon senators, congressmen & governors but not a single high ranking military guy.
Mormons don't serve in the military, they do missionary work instead. Thats the way they are raised to keep the military at a distance.
Check out this interview with Romney's 5 sons. None of them ever served in the military and are asked why. Their answers are very interesting.
PS: Of course Romney can never talk about this for many reasons both domestic and international.
"I wouldn't worry about who result. The real winner will be
Government Sachs. Yours sincerely, "The Chinless Wonder"."
You said it, Chinless.
"Geld regiert die Welt" is a German proverb also available in its equivalent "Money rules the world", "L'argent gouverne le monde" in all other countries, methinks.
That is the reality. Has been since time immemorial.
Are the Bilderbergers an extension of this reality or an attempt by a few who, although part of this world, aim to do something about it, like some Aristocrats in France joined the Jacobins out of a sense of guilt?
To Junoir on government Sachs
Hear! Hear!
We are again at a turning point in History.
When feudalism became oppressive, a peasant revolt followed by the first bourgeois one, made early capitalism possible. Jump fast forward, absolute monarchies gave rise to French and, somewhat laterally, to American revolutions.
Representative democracy ensued. Really, not the pre Charles 2nd parodies.
It had its first jolt in the 1917 and in the 30's.
Thankfully it was revived but the financial interests that now control it may lead to its demise.
If History trends are repeated, as they usually are, there'll a period of strife and a new fairer body politic will emerge.
Expect some twenty years of chaos and then two or three generation of better and fairer living. How, I have no idea.
Amongst the boring nonsensical thousands of pages Marx got somebody to write for him, he just made one right observation: when political institutions are overtaken be societal changes, revolutions occur.
I only hope the next one may be as little violent as possible.
Just read with great relish your takedown of Pumpernickel. Looked for my name in your hatchet job and there is was to my blushing pride.
Will the real Maher please stand up? Is he AEP or Big Charlie? Or both? After reading all our blather he must think he's Superman.
I have no idea who is right, maher or la v on matters economic, but respect their recondite exertions as a caveman no doubt venerated Prometheus. But it's not whose right or wrong driving my admiration, but who is making the most coherent argument. I admire a wino who just tinkled his pants if he can say anything with conviction about the external world.
Maher has spoken to me from time to time, much to my pleasure. Shame on him for not condescending to you. Simple oversight I am sure. And la v as well has occasionally allowed me to attempt to shred his unflappable obstinacy. What a bunch.
Which takedown of pumpernickel? Did I miss something again?
Anybody has a permalink so I can read and send a retort, if needed?
You ask who "diemm" is. Do we care? He'll be gone next week anyway.
Thought I'd tell you that the coverage of the US presidential election over here is as abysmal as you might expect, with everybody supporting Obama. If this support was reasoned and intelligent, all well and good, but it is not. It concentrates on emphasising the stupidity of Romney, and his blunders, while totally ignoring Obama's record. Ask people here what Obama has done in the past four years and they'll be incapable of telling you.
Why is this? Actually, a very difficult question. A European 'ganging up' on someone who represents much that they loathe, the WASPS; gregarious support for someone whose ancestors 'suffered so much in Kenya'; politically correct well-wishing for a black incumbent over a white challenger from people who have much to reproach themselves on the the question of race; the 'coolness' of the name Barrack Hussein Obama over an English name like Romney.
Put a European supporter of Obama on a couch and you'd have an object lesson in political correctness and garbled history. The word "slavery" would come up several times.
Not to mention their bigotry against Romney's mormon faith totally unaware of their own ignorance about mormonism and bigotry against it.
A very clever display of British cleverness, although Brits are not supposed to like cleverness.
That is what really irritates me about junior. He is too clever by half. All of us have our weak sides, viva, don't we. Our Hyde sides. This here chinless wonder never looses his stiff upper lip and always is ready with a clever quip. In school he probably was the class spokesmen but was never really liked by his peers. Probably stuck little posters on his back saying "I am clever".
Kids can be cruel.
He-he. Or as enlisted is fond of saying 'hi-hi'.
Sounds like you read back through the last page and found yourself being jointed by the formidably even-tempered Junoir.
Must have really struck home for you to come back with such a rebuke against our well-liked and often quoted Britizen.
Fun to watch Wotan do his war dance to the explosion of fire-crackers tossed at him by a master of understatement.
I regret that the media has so distorted US politics for the Europeans. But even in the US it is hard to get the facts straight.
Romney is an unknown quantity as are all presidential candidates who are not incumbents. But I am encouraged by what I hear. Successful businessman, family man, man of faith.
Obama on the other hand is well understood. No credentials to justify his election. All front. Videos of his redistributionist and racist rants of past years suppressed by a compliant media. To this day his college records are sealed. The lack of clarity about his birth is disregarded by the media. We must bow to the brass god of socialism.
He had a Democrat Congress, House and Senate the first two years. Instead of securing jobs, he rammed through Obamacare, a monstrosity soon to be excised. The last four years the Congress has passed no budget. The fish rots from the head down.
We withdrew early from Iraq, enabling Iranian imperial designs. We are retreating all across the Middle East. The deficit is exploding, the fiscal cliff looms, a sense of drift and lack of leadership prevails across the land. And Obama is enjoying the dolce vita. Laissez le bons temps rouler. He can't meet with Netanyahu but attends a bash with Beyonce.
He was said to be uneasy or woozy last night, the result of not having his teleprompter handy I suspect. Romney merely exploited the fish in a barrel.
Romney was at ease, had the facts, looked at people in the eye. Obama said something and Romney said 'I've been in business twenty five years and I have no idea what you're talking about.' Obama looked down at the lectern at a loss for words. Leader of the free world? lol.
I think I really hurt Marie's feelings yesterday. Or maybe she is preparing to serve herself in a cannibalistic feast to the sans culottes tonight. Hollande is turning France feral.
"He was said to be uneasy or woozy last night, the result of not having his teleprompter handy I suspect."
Well Obama performed remarkably well without a teleprompter during his debates with McCain, not to mention numerous debates with Hilary Clinton as well and she ain't no wallflower either.
So obviously there is another reason for his listless performance yesterday. This happens to all presidents, after 4 years they look burnt out.
"although Brits are not supposed to like cleverness".
Not quite. It's the DISPLAY of cleverness that is considered non-U.
"All of us have our weak sides, viva, don't we?"
Well as mere mortals with "weak sides", you and Viva are the best judges. It's not my fault if I've shed MY weak side and attained perfection. This is called 'breeding'. If you read Kipling's "IF", you'll understand.
"In school he probably was the class spokesmen but was never really liked by his peers".
They used to call me "Clever Clogs", a childish term for a know-all. Pure jealousy, I assure you.
As the Brits proved to be an unreceptive audience, I had to emigrate to France, a nation of unashamed Clever Clogs where I felt more at home, displaying my intelligence and brilliance for all to see.
It's not about what Obama hasn't done
It's about what Romney will (would) do.
The man is as dumb as a dumbbell.
Might as well say it now admit to it, and get on with our lives.
Funniest thing is, Junoir, one doesn't need propaganda in Romney's case. he pretty much does it to himself. Dan Quayle is jealous
"You ask who "diemm" is. Do we care? He'll be gone next week anyway"
Are you showing me the door?
He could be.
But can he?
He would.
BTW, Junoir, "slavery" would come up in northern Europe - not southern Europe.
Slavery, while it definitely existed in the North, was basically a Mediterranean phenomenon (slaves were needed for 15 centuries to row the boats). This means that all of us have histories as slave TRADERS, even if the local slave population in our countries - none of which had rich land to support the rise of plantations, for example - was always kept to low levels. In fact, slavery in the Mediterranean world was used at home mostly for domestic help - therefore female, sexual slavery and not productive slavery as in the New World.
Given this history, we generally do not point fingers.
A brother axe a question, and the whole retirement home empties out to pile on him. Apparently this pooperscooper with loose orifice fancies himself the king of the toothless. I'm god damn petrified.
Hey, marty, listen up, and you listen good, cuz this is good stuff, important stuff.
A while ago, there was this fella with the handle platypus (or something), who, having accomplished the feat of being born in an English-speaking land, deigned to cajole and bully non-native speakers on their writing, with a turgid three-page rant about "lightness of tone", ironing, etc.
In response, crammy righteously pointed out that we don't do that here around these parts, not even to that fella with a handle that evokes a vision of toilet.
Then I, for lack of better things to do, piled on and called platypus out for the clown that he is. Next thing you know, my stating of the fact promptly got reported and disappeared.
Long story short, marty, you may be a pompous windbag, but at least you're not a ridonculously pompous, thin-skinned wingbag - i.e., platypus. And that's something, eh. No, seriously, that is something in my humblish estimation.
Respek, bro!
I like that.
You are of course referring to Plazidus?
He has a thing against Yanks as he calls them. That generation still hasn't got over the passing of the torch of from the British Empire to the American century.
You are in good mood Viva.
Does Romney's trouncing of Obama in the debates have anything to do with it?
It doesn't hurt. Poor Whammy didn't have his teleprompter to bail him out.
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