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Reader comments are listed below. Comments are currently closed and new comments are no longer being accepted.
Good article, except that the economist that has written this article had not finished his/her homework. The last time a big round of reforms was introduced was in the second half of the 90's, not in the early 80's.
Wait a second on the mortgage issue. I've read an article a couple years ago, which stated that the majority of housing is in the hands of the municipal corporations in the Netherlands. In reality, if I understand correctly, the majority of Dutchman have no property whatsoever besides their movable properties. Then the State to stabilise property control gave cheap mortgages. This failed.
In Poland, we had the same issue. The State passed a law in which each apartment/housing unit of these municipal corporations (spółdzielnie) becomes the property of the leaser. This was done without mortgages and the like. The spółdzielnia became responsible for common property while the apartments are now the private property of their users. Now, the majority of Poles are private property owners after Communism.
Why couldn't the Netherlands do the same as we did? Give the properties to the users/leasers.
Maybe that is the only explanation why no one practices religion in the Netherlands. They are secular people with no property!!
The people that live in housing that is provided by municipal corporations are RENTING. Its social housing for the less afortunate. Has nothing to do with communism whatsoever. And definitely isnt a mortgage. Your just renting. And most dutch have a house they bought with a mortgage and so yes, they do have property.
FYI: a good measure is net worth per capita: in Holland that would be around 125000 dollars, versus Polands 25000 dollars.
So the Dutch, now need a "shake-up to cut the cost of employing older workers and encourage people to work longer hours?. No good for #Diversity,#Family or quality of life. Exploitation is not an economic policy. This model has already failed spectacularly.
Could you add to your line of thinking the following facts:
- Our currency used to be linked to DM, making in fact that the German central bank determined our currency policy;
- The far majority of our exports go to EU countries. Dutch companies tend to export less to outside EU than i.e. Germany; A single currency helps here.
- The Dutch GDP growth the years before 2008, excl the growth of exports, is almost entirely explained by the bubble in real estate: our internal economy is structurally weak and unless this changes, we depend on export to grow at all;
- most of our 'export' actually is throughput: from the harbours to mainly Germany: we add little value to this, so we earn not very much;
- The world is changing with new strong economic centers in Far East, South Amarica and comming up: Africa. What can be the position of a small country in this competative power?
- Euro country Germany is doing economically very well and some non-Euro countries, (i.e. UK) are doing worse. The non-Euro countries doing well (Norway, Sweden, Poland) are doing well due to structural reaseons, not currency reasons)
So maybe the decision for 1 currency without a backing up fiscal, economical and/or political union was a bad idea. But now we are there, with cost linked to moving forward or backward, how do you propose to handle this?
Euro country Greece is doing badly. Reason enough to get out.
The only way for Netherlands to grow is an increase in trade with the inland countries of Central Europe. The central European market demands more products - German products have the dirty lust symbol that they come from a state which hates the Czechs and Poles.
The Dutch need to switch to a land oriented trade system. The migration of Poles to the Netherlands is short-lived yet it is a sign that Germany can't provide Poland with the capital it needs so Poles go to the Netherlands and England. The Dutch and English need to consider strengthening trade with Poland.
The Dutch don't have that bad history. It's only 1.300 km from where I am writing to Amsterdam. Amsterdam is 800 km from the Polish-German border.
(The sea trade is impossible today - there was more sea trade in the world of 1500 and 1800 than today. It is unsafe to trade by sea because the governments don't keep up strong navies, don't make new sea maps and pirates have more and more power.)
With our economy depended around 80% on international trade, and more than half of this trade is with the EU, I would not suggest increasing dependancy on the EU. Which is the main reason we are facing a recession in the first place (combined with a delutional right wing government that thinks that to increase gdp you only need cuts and raise VAT, tuition, heath insurance etc.)
Holland should be looking to trade more with South America, Asia and Africa. Diversification is the word. I´m sure we will achieve just that, if there is a trading nation in the world with hunderds of years of experience its the Netherlands.
I disagree. South America doesn't need products made in northern Europe. Our climates differ too much. Compare Poland to Greece. Here we pay about 400-600 euro a month in the 6 months of winter for heating our homes. In Greece, they don't heat there homes at all. They put on a sweater and everything's okay. Greeks have no need for Bosch heating system neither do South America nor Africa. Asia and Africa is just too plain far away - airplane transport costs too much, ship transport demands huge quanitities of supply on ship. India's and China's needs are huge yet they don't have the same consumer needs as people in central, northern and western Europe have.
Become a small entrepreneur, open your own store or shoppe and see how tolerant it is to have such huge health insurance and VAT taxes. The greatest hammer on liberty and trade in Europe are the taxes. In history, nations choose one form of tax. Today, we have every possible tax-system placed on us. In the past, it was 1.) only sales' tax with no property tax or 2.) only income tax with no other taxes, 3.) a bank and giant corporation tax. The taxes are too high in Europe. Counting all of the taxes in Poland, income, VAT and social taxes - we have 45% of our pay cheques in wages. We work for 1000 EURO, after all the taxes we have 450 euro of spare cash. We have lower income taxes than the West, so I think that in the Netherlands, it is somewhere around 350 euro per 1000 euro.
The increase of taxes give the State too much power. The liberals are right in that a State with the amount of money it has today is a fascist organisation. The State gains too much power by the amount of tax money it has.
An increased retirement age will not hit disposable incomes.
Quite the opposite - more people working for longer means higher aggregate incomes and increased consumption.
Even in the short run, expectations of increased future incomes (from working longer) should result in more consumption today (assuming that people previously were saving sufficiently for retirement).
Pay 40 years of pension deductions from wages for 2 or 3 years of retirement? In the majority of Europe 30% of each monthly wage (paid monthly not weekly) goes to the State. Every little cheque even for 600 EURO a month / 150 EURO a week has 30% taken away from it and given to the State. In reality, the majority of the population of Southern Europe, after direct and social taxes live for 100 EURO a week but then you have the 20% VAT, which leaves 80 EURO a week to live on... 11 EURO a day to live in Italy or Spain... Sure that 14 times more than in the Third World 1 dollar-a-day yet First World prices for 14 dollars a day...
Just 2 or 3 years retirement? Where? (Italy/ Spain/ Greece have some of the world's highest life expectancies - and also the developed world's lowest average retirement ages.)
The problem is that for every year that passes, life expectancy rises by 3 months.
If we keep retirement age constant, then average retirement length increases by 3 months every single year. If we decide to keep retirement ages constant, then unless we have especially rapid growth, we need ever higher taxes on the working population, and probably falling post-tax incomes.
If you want to enjoy a decent income, both in life and in retirement, then 1) increase national retirement ages 2) plan to work longer and 3) try to get more women into full time work. Do that, and tax rates can be radically reduced while pension incomes (though not pension lengths) can become ever more generous.
Life expectancy is rising be 3 months a year - and so state retirement age needs to be increased by at least 2 months for every year that passes.
First of all, I know that the Netherlands are emerging not only as anti-Muslim, but also as anti-Polish nation. I am Pole, studying currently in Sydney and one of my Dutch work-mates told me that the opinion that "Poles are stealing Dutch jobs" gaining more and more popularity. The thing is that the free flow of labour is one of the fundamentals of EU. If Dutch don't want other EU nationals to come to work in their country then they should hold a referendum and if decided by majority than withdraw from EU (countries as Norway, Switzerland and others not being in EU are doing actually very well).
In terms of growing dissatisfaction with surplus contributions to EU budget I support Dutch and German stand. The countries like Greece have been over-spending for years to maintain high quality of life, and now when everyone (including investors and lenders) realised that it leads to nowhere. These countries have been consuming not their money and now they're crying when these funds have been cut out. I am really sick of hearing of Greek suffering!!! I mean the wages are so artificially pumped over there and they actually don't know what is suffering yet!!! I hope that they will have to give back all these money that have been lent to them now!
Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are members of the EFTA, and as such must accept most EU regulation (including free trade, free movement of workers and most European law).
If you want to be in their position, you are essentially accepting EU government without representation or influence over its direction - in exchange for saving cash (trivial sums - less than foreign aid).
Portuguese and Spanish are taking great amount of Polish jobs. Seriously, my grandparents would of never believed that the majority of people in a parish church in Poland are Portuguese and that they hear more Portuguese than Polish going through some stores or neighbourhoods in KIELCE!!
Most disturb fact is that Wilders' populist party isn't yet required by Dutch law to reveal its secret foreign financial support. An ex-member has revealed that extreme rightwing Americans give large donations to Wilders', now anti European campaign. His organisation, officially having one member only (Wilders) is inherently undemocratic, even though many people have voted for it.
Anti-EU (EuroSoviet) is not anti-Europe.
The EU itself is anti, anti-democracy, anti-elections, anti-referendums, anti-decentralisation of power, anti-transparency etc...
The EU is 100% undemocratic.
You're 100% moronic.
There are 5 million Americans of Dutch ancestry. Explain where the money is coming from? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_American
This analysis is short sighted.
What gave the Dutch economy a huge blow is the money transfer to the South. Cut 12 billion in one year is needed? Ok. But don't transfer 5 billion in cash to the South!
The strategy of calling euroskeptics racists, xenophobs, low skilled and narrow minded does not work anymore.
I WILL vote for a party which wants Holland out of the euro.
NO, i am not against immigrants, against muslims, against high income. But I think the populists are the ones talking about "our jobs and our pensions depending on Europe" which is just NOT the case.
I'd rather have Turkey in the eurozone and pay for Africa, but NOT for the PIIGS. Does that make me a racist?
Dutch politics. Gloom in polderland. I forget the definition of being selfish, greedy, dishonest and nice my experience in the netherlands is not the best. The mess in the civil service is exampled on the information I received on moving to Holland regarding my, car, my processions and the house I purchased and then lost and much more. In a land that functions on advertising it's difficult to obtain accurate information, may be this is the origin of being "Double-Dutch". What is disturbing is the independence of the court giving rulings on the ESF, ESM by a caretaker government to name a few. Mr Wilders seem to draw his support from an ever increasing number of voters for talking common sense something here to land unusual.
I bet that the Dutch will push the necessary reforms through their parliament as soon as a new cabinet has been formed. This is because the current demissionary cabinet has fewer powers than a conventional cabinet. Thus, besides organizing the upcoming elections, it can meanwhile only take care of urgent and pressing matters and not initiate controversial legislation.
Well, although much of the article is a good analysis of the Netherlands, I strongly disagree with the final paragraph. The Netherlands needs reform to be more competitive? Reform it needs yes, but it already is the 7th most competitive country on earth, this with the lowest working hours and being the richest EU member (excluding Luxembourg inflated gdp). If we need to be more competitive, than I´ll feel very sorry for the Spanish and other South Europeans, as they will need to become China in order to compete with Northern Europe.
Trying to be even more competitive will surely mean turning The Netherlands in the next Neocon fiasco of lots of social problems, little equality and poverty. The Dutch recession is caused firstly by the EUs problems as we depend heavily on exports and the EU is our biggest market. Secondly, internal demand is down thanks to the great uncertainty that remains in the housing market. Everybody knows the government must reform the housing market, mainly by reducing interest deductions for middle and higher incomes. But since it is a guarantee of losing the next election, nobody dares..
Dutch GDP/ capita is among the highest in Europe, and above US levels.
Prospects are glum - but probably better than in the US (the Netherlands will need some fiscal tightening, but doesn't have the fiscal cliff).
The Netherlands would surely get rid of its 4,6% of gdp deficit by only limiting interest deductions on mortgages, which in turn would lead to lower house prices, desperately needed for the young. The government until now has refused this, instead had invented starter loans: if you are young, recently working, than you are entitled to cheaper housing and special mortgage arrangements. This in turn costs the state only more money.
Secondly, although I´m pro charity and supportive of the Netherlands polity of paying 0,8% of gdp to developing countries, in times of hardship and cuts, this policy needs to be looked at. (currently spending around 10 billion)
Thirdly, cutting the army by half of even completely would be equal to savings to up to 15 billion euros. Obviously we are not about to be invaded by neither Belgium or Germany. And we are a Nato member which guarantees security.
A good analysis of the current political situation in the Netherlands.
We've lived in a very small country since the rise of populist, anti-immigration movements. Few politicians dare to talk about the real problems, let alone propose much needed reform, for fear of the polls. The media are too closely tied to the political game, and fail to confront populist political claims with fact and sound analysis. Rather, they blow small problems up to cataclysmic proportions. The people still feel like Holland is the best country in the world and forget what it is that gave us our present wealth, liberty and security: openness to trade, openness to people, a hard working mentality, a positive and pro-active role in European integration.
I sincerely hope that the fiasco at Euro 2012 (if not the severity of the current economic slump) gives the Dutch a reason to pause and reflect.
"The people still feel like Holland is the best country in the world and forget what it is that gave us our present wealth, liberty and security: openness to trade, openness to people, a hard working mentality, a positive and pro-active role in European integration."
Can you prove you last assesment?
I don't remeber the war in the '90s, when we had an own currency.
I don't remeber being unemployed in the '90s when we had an own currency.
A currency should reflect economy, not ideology. Euro is an ideology. THIS is the populist talk. "No euro, no future" - THIS is populist.
I don't care if the national currency would be called guilder, crone or DM. I just want it to reflect OUR economy. I prefer Knot to decide on money printing rather than Draghi. Is this racist? Than have Merkel do it. In an union of SIMILAR economies, based on economic data, not on borders.
Unilever, Shell, Heineken reported growth IN SPITE of Eurozone, due to growth in ASIA and SOUTH AMERICA.
How doe my job depend on Greece? How does my pension depend on Spain? On export, yes, but not to Southern Europe. The world is larger than Europe and Dutch companies know this for 400 years.
The politicians need to learn it.
I'll let you decide if this is racist...
Could you add to your line of thinking the following facts:
- Our currency used to be linked to DM, making in fact that the German central bank determined our currency policy;
- The far majority of our exports go to EU countries. Dutch companies tend to export less to outside EU than i.e. Germany; A single currency helps here.
- The Dutch GDP growth the years before 2008, excl the growth of exports, is almost entirely explained by the bubble in real estate: our internal economy is structurally weak and unless this changes, we depend on export to grow at all;
- most of our 'export' actually is throughput: from the harbours to mainly Germany: we add little value to this, so we earn not very much;
- The world is changing with new strong economic centers in Far East, South Amarica and comming up: Africa. What can be the position of a small country in this competative power?
- Euro country Germany is doing economically very well and some non-Euro countries, (i.e. UK) are doing worse. The non-Euro countries doing well (Norway, Sweden, Poland) are doing well due to structural reaseons, not currency reasons)
So maybe the decision for 1 currency without a backing up fiscal, economical and/or political union was a bad idea. But now we are there, with cost linked to moving forward or backward, how do you propose to handle this?
1.I am perfectly aware that the NFL was pegged to the DM and I am ok with the idea of "going back to the DM" - to a currency which is in harmony with the economy, not an ideology.
2.Agree upon importance of export. BUT: we were an export nation way before the euro, for like 400 years. As you observe, we don't produce anything we export. Goods are coming in, we add some stuff and resell it as Dutch. This does make us depend on export, but not on European export. Try to take a look at the balance sheets of the companies in the AEX. How much of their export goes to euro-countries!
3.Besides swallowing uncritically the stuff populist politicians tell you, try to think for yourself. I have been working with businesses (various) for 15 years. I didn't met ONE entrpreneur or firm saying: "My best export posibility is UK or US or Turkey, but I will still export to Italy because it has the Euro." NONE! Businesses make export decisions based on other criteria and being an euro country is the last one and less important. It counted only in extreme situations, like Argentina bankcurpcy or Italian inflation in the '80s and '90s. Dutch companies tend to prefer niche activities, niche markets, which are usually (markets) non-european.
5. My suggestion for a solution? get out of THIS euro. Either form a union with economies which have the same macro-figures (Germany, Denmark, Austria, Finland, Belgium, Luxemburg, etc.) I wouldn't care what's the currency called in this case.
OR stand alone. By this I do not mean isolation, I mean own currency. Again, I don't care if the post-euro currency is called guilder, mark or something new. The best solution would be a N-euro and S-euro.
Unilever public balance sheet:
Total turnover: 56,6 bill Euro
Western Europe: 12.3 bill Euro
America's: 15,3 bill Euro
Asia, Africa: 18,9 bill Euro
I don't think I need to mention Shell, they have almost no Eurozone operations...
"Can you prove you last assesment?
I don't remeber the war in the '90s, when we had an own currency.
I don't remeber being unemployed in the '90s when we had an own currency.
A currency should reflect economy, not ideology. Euro is an ideology. THIS is the populist talk. "No euro, no future" - THIS is populist."
You say, in the 1990s we had our own currency; yet, the ERM (European Exchange Rate Mechanism) more or less fixed the European currencies in relation to the ECU. In the 1980s, unemployment was very high in the Netherlands. Despite having our own currency. It's very hard to argue these 'facts' because we cannot isolate the many different influences. Yet, we can see that the Netherlands is one of the biggest net exporters in Europe, with most export going to other countries in the EU (including Southern European countries btw). As such, we have profited immensely from economic integration.
But I agree that it is also populist to state things like "if we don't vote for the Lissabon treaty, the lights will go out". That's why I voted against in that referendum. Not because I'm against EU integration, but because the democratic controls are still not solid enough. I also have too little trust in the current European Parliament(arians) to give it more power.
You say the currency should reflect the economy. Yet, would a Dutch guilder reflect the economy of the Randstad as well as that of Oost Groningen? Does the US$ reflect the economy of the Bay Area as well as that of Mississippi? Does the Yuan reflect the economy of Shanghai or that of Guizhou province?
In any monetary unit, there needs to be a transfer of wealth of some sorts to maintain a reasonable level of welfare in the poorest regions. The same goes for the Euro-zone. There are several ways to achieve this:
- national government redistributes money amongst provinces or states (e.g. in Germany)
- National welfare systems support unemployed in backward regions (happens in Holland and most other West-European countries)
- People leave poor regions and move to regions with work (US); they send money 'back home' to support family members who stayed behind.
- National government takes responsibility for major infrastructural investments, school systems etc.
I'm sure there are more ways in which this process is happening. And it should not be feared to apply some of these on the European scale. My preference would initially be to have more people on the move within Europe. But it's clear now that we also need to apply more direct support.
But let me be very clear: that does not take away each nation's responsibility to reform and promote innovation.
Can you give a definition of "populist"? Does it mean "listening better to voters than others"? What is the opposite? "Bigoted, elitist"?
Aren't all politicians populists catering to their segment?
In my opinioan, in most contemporary publications, including the Economist, "populist" means "representing a political view that is not mainstream, does not serve the intrests of rent-seekers (banks, PIGGS, hard-core unemployed ) and therefore should be repressed by as a first step discrediting it by means of a relentless black PR campaign."
I think "populism" refers to a style of politics that suggests to the people that complex societal problems can be easily solved (i.e. without negative effects on 'the people') by simple measures.
E.g. The entire economic crisis is caused by bankers; therefore we should impose heavy tax on banks.
Or: Our national culture is waning because of immigrants. We should stop the flood of Muslim immigrants.
The problem being that those claims are not founded on thourough analysis and factual information, but rather on the gut feeling of the man in the street.
"think "populism" refers to a style of politics that suggests to the people that complex societal problems can be easily solved (i.e. without negative effects on 'the people') by simple measures.
Or: Our national culture is waning because of immigrants. We should stop the flood of Muslim immigrants."
As opposed to ... "our national culture is waning because of immigrants. We should do nothing to stop the flood of Muslim immigrants"??
Why not just stop the flow of Muslim immigrants?
Dear mr. Carlisle, you couldn't have illustrated my point in a better way.
The perceived problem "our national culture is waning" is very complex. In the first place, try to define the national culture. It's impossible to define it in such a way that a large majority feels comfortable with it (believe me, they've tried in the NL).
In the second place, it's very hard to distinguish 'waning' from 'changing', which is a natural process with all cultures throughout history.
Thirdly, what is the cause of that change? Can Muslim immigrants (or any other immigrants) really force us to abandon our culture, or does it change because we give it up ourselves? Dutch culture has always been swayed by the dominant cultures in the world: France in the 18th Century, Germany in the 19th Century, US in the 20th Century. There were also important influxes from other European countries: Jews from Spain and Portugal, Protestant refugees from France, Germans, East-European Jews, Indonesians, Surinamese and Carribeans from the colonies, you name it. Why should it be different now?
Further, there are positive effects of immigration. It has been shown that immigration can be an important driver for economic growth. People that pack their stuff and move to a new country are usually more entrepreneurial than those that stay.
Finally, and most importantly, just as not all Dutch are the same, not all immigrants are the same. And not all Muslims are the same, just like not all Christians are the same. For a large majority of both belief systems, it is important to be a good citizen and to adapt to the place where you settle.
So you see, all that gets lost in the populist style of politics. Therefore, the danger of populism is that the people become more divided and antagonistic.
This is all true to some extent but also a bit spurious. You're saying that culture is changing. The mere fact that culture is changing does not warrant limits on immigration, because culture changes for other reasons as well, (e.g. French influence in the 18th Century).
Human-beings are extremely tribal and display racial prejudice marked by favourable reactions to people of the same ethnicity from about three-years-old, when they first become self-conscious. Therefore if you are importing large numbers of people of a different ethnicity who are bound by a very competitive religion, these people will separate and compete, and that will drive division and antagonism naturally. This process has already started.
Why would you not seek to limit Muslim immigration purely on these grounds? Using cultural conservatism, you can make this argument in as sensitive manner as possible - although it will still be divisive and restrictive of course. But when you import huge numbers of people of very religious people of a certain ethnicity (i.e. who are very "culturally" or ethnically conservative themselves) you need to get the confrontation out of the way early.
Your approach just allows division to fester to the point where it becomes irreparable.
Well said Carlisle, for what is very much a minority opinion on these Economist blogs. I too find the argument 'it's impossible to define culture so why bother trying to preserve it as best we can' to be highly unconvincing; one must not have a complete definition of a concept as slippery as that of culture before one is allowed to take measures to ensure national culture is not completely overwhelmed by alien cultures. Of course the national culture means different things to different people, but whilst this is the case, I think most can see it is certainly changing all over Europe the result of Muslim immigration - and whether one considers this to be good or bad, important or unimportant, it is as I have said very unconvincing simply to say nobody can agree on the definition of this abstract concept so your (the man on the streets) opinions, fears, and loyalty to your definition of culture, will simply be cast aside by a liberal elite with their own universalistic values.
I agree absolutely! People who waffle on about the indefinability of culture miss the point! The fact is, you could make the same argument about literally any object/thing (e.g. a table is not strictly definable - wooden surface with four legs might also be a desk or a coffee table etc - and is subject to changing fashion, and so does not exist).
Really, arguments about changing culture are usually to do with which tribe of people decides what according to what legitimacy (within which territory) - that's why people can have fights over things they don't actually care that much about like the degree to which church's are decorated, or gay marriage.
Internationalists' pseudo-rubbish about the strictness of definition of culture is just really a tactic to assert themselves as the controllers of debate and establish their legitimacy. Many aspects of culture or other peoples' whole cultures are definable in their eyes. For instance, they never insist that cultural conservatives of other ethnicities than natives give up their extraordinary layers of protection that they embroider their tribes with when they come to Europe.
This is really not ok behaviour from the UN/EU/Economist set - using immigration and ethnic minority cultural conservatives to get rid of borders is an insanely stupid and reckless/dangerous thing to do. You are not getting rid of them, you are just changing them in a very violent manner!
Not to mention subjecting common Europeans to decades of ethnic tension, with all the day-to-day stress, economic decline, and violence that comes with that. A definition of "populism" is casting common people against elites, and that is exactly what is happening so I am happy for anyone to define such arguments as populist - they are, but they're still correct! Here's proof!:
Mr. Carlisle,
My point was not to start a debate on national cultures, but to explain what the term 'populism' usually refers to. Next, I gave two examples.
The populist argument is to say that getting rid of Muslims will solve all problems.
You argue that cultural isolation is good for certain reasons. But I have not heard you suggest that it will mean that any nation's problems will be solved. This means we can at least have an informed debate.
My personal view is different to yours. Living in one of the so called worst neighbourhoods of the Netherlands (over 50% Moroccan or Turkish background) for many years, I have yet to experience that Islam is the root of the problems here. Youths that cause trouble engage in activities that are not condoned by Islam: using drugs, agression, theft. They are also not condoned in Moroccan culture. Therefore I don't believe that blaming Islam or Moroccan culture is right.
It's also good to know that this neighbourhood was ill regarded even before the arrival of a non-Western immigrants. There were criminal Dutch youth gangs that terrorised the neighbourhood back then.
Finally, I think it's best to engage in respectful dialogue to get to know fellow citizens. And yes, we can demand the same respectful approach from immigrants. Naturally, the law applies to all who come here. Those are safeguards for maintaining our polity.
I wish you a good night; I'm off to bed.
The opposite of a populist (one who generally advocates policies that would benefit ordinary people) is an elitist. Look no further than the undemocratic EU for elitists. The entitled class.
If anyone called me a populist, I'd wear it as a badge of honor.
The elites are terrified their gravy train (undemocratic EU, unelected jobs, centralization of power, EuroSoviet Union) will not be expanded further and that the neo-liberal banker project called 'Euro' will be undone.
So they revert to scaremongering, goebbels-style propaganda to tell people 'without the Euro, genocide will happen' (former Euro Kommissar 'the fragrant' Wallstrom actually said as much in 2005) or 'no Euro = war'.
Our prosperity does not depend on the existance of either the Euro or the EU, but on trade and free enterprise, both of which the EU has made more difficult, the EU being a customs union designed to 'keep the big bad world out from competing with French farmers and Spanish fishing fleets'.
The EU was designed by those who think the rest of the world does not exist, and want to build a 'fortress Europe'. And want to centralize power and harmonize (gleichschaltung) all laws etc... until the last bits of diversity are stamped out. And woe to him who dares criticize centralization of power, central planning and all that, because if you do that you are an 'anti-European'. But it is them who are the real anti-Europeans.
You seem to conveniently forget that in islam, stealing from non-muslims isn't considered stealing.
You see, islam structures itself on a tier-basis. With the quran
-muslim men (lets set the worth on 100 and value the rest according to islamic scripture and behaviour)
-muslim women (25, because the testimony of 1 man is worth that of four women in islam according to quran)
-christians/jews (anywhere between 0 and 25, people of the book)
-other unbelievers (0, vermin)
I think you are creating a straw-man here by saying that populists (such as Wilders I'm assuming) argue that by getting rid of Muslims all the problems will be sorted, which is clearly false. Many problems are completely unrelated to Muslim colonisation such as our budget deficits, pension crisis etc. But there are many problems which this entails and to try to argue that people who are against their countries being turned into Muslim countries argue that Muslims cause ALL problems and we would live in a kind of paradise if only we ended immigration is completely disingenuous. I've never heard anybody say all the problems are caused by Muslims because that is clearly false, and lies such as these do not need to be invented for one to be against any further colonization of our continent.
Yes, being an enemy of Christianity in a society where Christians are a minority and there exists a strong Muslim community is an anacronism.
The whole sense behind atheism, rationalism and secularism is losing its weight as the number of Muslims increases - people who have no ties to European heritage. Those three ideologies are based on European tradition - the replacement of Europe by Islam causes those ideologies and their arguments to be defunct.
QUOTE: ""The perceived problem "our national culture is waning" is very complex. In the first place, try to define the national culture. It's impossible to define it in such a way that a large majority feels comfortable with it (believe me, they've tried in the NL).
In the second place, it's very hard to distinguish 'waning' from 'changing', which is a natural process with all cultures throughout history.""
No one outside of schools and universities thinks in such neomarxist ways. Everyone who leaves school realises that the Neomarxism taught there as science isn't science - that's why people look to New Age and Buddhism to destroy this "Western scientific worldview". In reality, if our schools stopped teaching neomarxism, we'd all be happier but that would require a return to Western tradition, which we have existential problems with. A return to Aristotle, Greek and Latin language and theology would be a very radical turn for our school system yet that's what we expect from our schools. Arabs want their children to read the Coran, Hadit and Sunna fluently in ancient Arabic - Europeans want their children to know Latin. The Arab school system listens to the parents - the Western school system has an ideology of embettering the world and creating a new world which doesn't exist.
"Finally, and most importantly, just as not all Dutch are the same, not all immigrants are the same. And not all Muslims are the same, just like not all Christians are the same. For a large majority of both belief systems, it is important to be a good citizen and to adapt to the place where you settle."
You can say that in a society made up of Calvinists and Catholics. The Muslims can't accept that. Islam demands fidelity to the literal text of the Coran - there is no room for interpretation of the Islamic scriptures it is accepted literarily. Catholicism accepts that everything in Scripture can and must be interpreted - semper interpretanda. Calvinism accepts that only unclear passages should be interpreted if their sense is not literal. Islam accepts no interpretation.
Then the problem is that the Bible and Coran are two books written in a Semitic environment yet with a completely different text. Before making a comparison between Islam and Christianity, read both the Gospels and then parts of the Coran.
Your opinion is not well formed. You know very little about your own tradition, so you can't make an opinion on a foreign tradition.
Your situation demands contemplation.
"You can say that in a society made up of Calvinists and Catholics. The Muslims can't accept that. Islam demands fidelity to the literal text of the Coran - there is no room for interpretation of the Islamic scriptures it is accepted literarily. Catholicism accepts that everything in Scripture can and must be interpreted - semper interpretanda. Calvinism accepts that only unclear passages should be interpreted if their sense is not literal. Islam accepts no interpretation."
It is historically wrong to talk about Catholicism in this way. That church has an enormous record of keeping people under very tight moral controls with the inquisition.
Yet, my biggest gripe is where you write "The Muslims can't accept that". As if all Muslims think exactly the same. That's an assertion that no right-minded defender of Liberal values should ever make.
You say I don't know 'my own tradition'. If that is the so-called Christian-Judaic tradition, I would like to give you some pointers:
- The Crusades (aimed at 'liberating' the Holy City from the Muslims) started out with some nice pogroms against the Jewish inhabitants of German cities.
- The Jews had well established lives in Moorish Spain. When those areas were conquered by Catholic Spain, the Jews faced forced conversion, expulsion, or simply death.
- When the plague hit European cities, the first thing to do was to kill the Jews.
- In the WWII, it was not just the (atheist) Nazi's who killed Jews. Many Jews were killed, turned in to Nazis or discriminated (enthousiastically) by Christians throughout Europe.
- Jews returning to Holland after surviving the Death camps in Germany/Poland often found their houses and possessions had been taken by their neighbours. Those neighbours were unwilling to return anything and looked at the victims with disgust.
It seems you need to read up on your history.
"The whole sense behind atheism, rationalism and secularism is losing its weight as the number of Muslims increases - people who have no ties to European heritage. Those three ideologies are based on European tradition - the replacement of Europe by Islam causes those ideologies and their arguments to be defunct."
You make it sound as if those people cannot be connected to their new home countries. Let me tell you: they can! As such they are integrating here and in most cases without any problems.
What's wrecking our liberal values is not the arrival of a few migrants with different backgrounds. It's the xenofobic reaction that leads people to look at others on the basis of difference rather than on commonality. And then try to seek limits to what is 'strange'.
Why should total freedom of speech apply to Mr. Wilders, but not to a fanatic Muslim?
It seems to me that the law should apply equally to all members of a society, regardless of their background, race, sexual preference, gender, and beliefs. THAT is the basis of our Liberal society.
In response to another poster, I was merely giving examples of what a populist argument would be. Please read more carefully.
In general, I see that the populist style of politics is gaining ground. The media play a large role in that with their craving for catchy headlines, scandal and crisis.
What we are losing is the depth of analysis, constructive debate and creative problem solving needed to move our societies forward and maintain good levels of welfare.
I really should object to your sweeping assertions here. As a middle aged practicing muslim I can assure you that all you have written about Islam is wrong. You need to check your sources and then write.
1. Stealing is wrong - no matter how, who, what.
2. Testimony of women has to do with financial transactions. In conservative and olden times, women's roles were mostly confined to homes. The rationale for having two women witness a financial transaction is appropriate for those times. You can read more about it.
3. Christians and Jews were not discriminated against such as you imply. Non-Muslims had their rights, their religious customs and laws were respected. Muslims would not have been able to rule in Iberia, India, Eastern Europe if indeed what you write had been true.
Asserting that 'other unbelievers' were considered vermin is highly offending. How could Muslim Sultans rule most of Northern India for 800 years if they thought of their subjects as vermin. Mind you, the Sultans were not perfect. They were people like others, what made them tolerable was their insistence on Justice.
Sir, you ought to read more, understand more, and write less.
"Islam demands fidelity to the literal text of the Coran - there is no room for interpretation of the Islamic scriptures it is accepted literarily. "
Sir, you are wrong here. How did you come across this notion?
It is accepted in Islamic studies that each age interprets Quran as it sees fit. The first major interpreter and exegete clearly enunciated this principle and it has never been challenged. Otherwise nobody would write commentaries on Quran today. Islamic studies are dynamic, not static.
That's the opinion I've come across in many works.
I interpret the Coran as a historical text and set of teachings which don't have divine value. Mohamet never interpreted the text as the writer of the text is not an exegete. That sentence that the writer is the exegete of the text is illogical. Islam like all Asian religions is static. A dynamic Islam is an Islam created to appease European tastes and a rejection of the teachings of the Islamic prophet.
I am talking about the Catholicism of the last 150 years. Catholicism hasn't to the ire of Protestants died out. It has existed side-by-side.
The Calvinists also had an Inquisition. Every country of Western Europe had its own religious office of Inquisition besides Poland. There were the Calvinist Inquisitions of Geneva and the Netherlands, the Lutheran Inquisitions of the German States, the Catholic Inquisitions of France and Italy, etcetera.
The Catholic states upheld a high moral standard in their times. In the age of modern libertinism, discipline is frowned upon. If we search in Aristotle's and Plato's works, the aim of the State is to lead war. To maintain the state of warfare a state must have discipline. A state which doesn't have discipline will as Augustine said fall like Rome did. When the Romans rejected morality, their empire divided. If they had maintained their traditional morality their empire would of survived as it had the protection of Providence.
Today we are living in immoral times. High interest rates on credit, sexual immorality, atheism, glutonny, intemperance, drunkeness are normal for us. Sadly, people with high moral standards are branded terrorists while the mediocre majority has their authoritative say. Small and medium business is practically dead in Europe, no children are being born, international corporations and companies destroy entire nations. Everything today is immoral - the discipline of the government of 1900 sounds barbarian, not forelest we forget the government of 1400.
Well, I am an outsider in Europe as the majority of Jewry in Europe for over 600 years lived in Catholic Poland. The Jews in Germany, the Jews in der Netherlands were killed. That's the Dutch and German's problem not mine. My nation never killed Jews. I know the history of Poland, I have read a lot about the history of the Roman Empire. I'm not strong in Dutch and German history unless those events are tied to Polish history.
Force those immigrants to read Spinoza and you will see what happen. Anyways I doubt the moral quality of people who evaded their home countries because they did not want to serve in their home armies. The majority of Arabs and Turks in Europe left the Arabias and Turkey because they didn't want to serve in their armies. I don't believe these Turks which come here. Just because you have 20 Turkish flags in a room in Amsterdam doesn't mean you love Turkey. Why do they bring Turkey with them if they hated the country to evade military service? The Turkish Secret Service could easily destroy the Turkish community in Europe within a year. If the Turkish government really tried, they could demand the immigration of these people back to Turkey. Turkey prefers to wait. These immigrants are Turkey's problem as Turkey needs people to work.
If fanatical Muslim is a citizen or subject of the Netherlands than he has the right to say his opinions. Mr Wilders is a citizen or subject of the Netherlands. As the majority of these people don't speak the native language of the country, I don't think they can represent themselves. You can't make citizens people who don't speak the same language. There are plenty of Dutch and German descent people in Poland yet because they don't speak Dutch or German, they don't move to the Netherlands or Dutch, even though genetically they are Dutch and German.
The Hindus of India and the Christians of Europe and Iberia rejected Islamic rule because of what mvr36 mentioned. I think that Greeks, Hungarians and Serbs know what they are talking as they were for 200+ years under Turkish rule. This is well documented. That is why there are no mosques today in the majority of the Balkans where there was Turkish rule in 1500-1600. Bosnia and Kosovo are the exceptions yet religious practice in those countries is like this : 10% Christian, 50% of Christians in church, 5% of the population in church; 90% Muslim, Muslims in mosque 1%. 5% of the population in church, 0,9% in mosque... What religion is that country in the end? The majority of Muslims never practice their religion, they are atheists, they don't even privately pray at home...
The Ahmadiyya is the normal Islam - which is a half-Islam or quarter-Islamic religion. The majority of the Islamic world practices what Europeans call syncretism - a multi-religious cult. The pure religion of Europe doesn't exist in Asia and Africa. Calling the Ahmadiyya Muslims is an over-statement. At best the majority of Muslims practice a mixture of Christianity, Islam and Judaism in the post-Turkish lands, a mixture of Arabic pagan and Islam in Arabia, a mixture of Christianity, Hinduism, Islam and Zorasterianism in the Indias.. Putting them into one basket with dogmatic Catholicism, whose 1,100,000,000 believers profess the same pure religion is an overstatement.
"Today we are living in immoral times. High interest rates on credit, sexual immorality, atheism, glutonny, intemperance, drunkeness are normal for us. Sadly, people with high moral standards are branded terrorists while the mediocre majority has their authoritative say. Small and medium business is practically dead in Europe, no children are being born, international corporations and companies destroy entire nations. Everything today is immoral - the discipline of the government of 1900 sounds barbarian, not forelest we forget the government of 1400."
All the things you describe as examples of the moral decay of our societies, could have been said by a pious and conservative Muslim as well...
"Well, I am an outsider in Europe as the majority of Jewry in Europe for over 600 years lived in Catholic Poland. The Jews in Germany, the Jews in der Netherlands were killed. That's the Dutch and German's problem not mine. My nation never killed Jews."
Wow... Jews never suffered from pogroms in Poland? Please sir, that statement is an affront to History.
"Force those immigrants to read Spinoza and you will see what happen. Anyways I doubt the moral quality of people who evaded their home countries because they did not want to serve in their home armies. The majority of Arabs and Turks in Europe left the Arabias and Turkey because they didn't want to serve in their armies. I don't believe these Turks which come here. Just because you have 20 Turkish flags in a room in Amsterdam doesn't mean you love Turkey. Why do they bring Turkey with them if they hated the country to evade military service? The Turkish Secret Service could easily destroy the Turkish community in Europe within a year. If the Turkish government really tried, they could demand the immigration of these people back to Turkey. Turkey prefers to wait. These immigrants are Turkey's problem as Turkey needs people to work."
I don't know if evading military service was the driving force behind migration. If it was, I would find it understandable considering the oppressive nature of the military regime (war in Kurdistan) in those days.
You cite the classical philosophers here and there. Please be reminded that many of their works survived to this day thanks to the Muslim world. As Catholicism favoured only the dogmatic works and found many of the Classical works unacceptable, the Muslim philosophers kept those ideas alive. They found their way back into European philosophy thanks to people like Ibn Rushd (Averroes) who revived Arestotelian philosphy in the West.
The moral decay is evident. Watch any movies, isn't the European "post-modernist depression" a fact? How many people suffer depression and schizophrenia today? Millions of normal working people in Europe suffer diseases which one-thousandeth of people in 1950 suffered. I blame the welfare state for this - the hospitals and offices of government are the factories of today. The nurse is the aristocrat of today's post-modern welfare State - sozialstaat. The destruction of religion is also a fact yet the void has to be replaced by something. You can't buy God - welfare cheques and social transfers can only satisfy consumer needs.
Piety and conservatism have nothing to do with each other. St. Francis of Assisi gave up his father's multinational clothing corporation to become a mendicant. He gave up the libertarian life of the rich to become equal to the poor. He had the rich lifestyle, he had a couple hundred million euro of wealth in his father's company (his father's bank account papers are evidence of the amount of gold the Bernardino family had.), he had everything yet he gave it all up.
He was a socialist saint. He wasn't the Pope or a King, he didn't have any power - he gave up his political influence to become a beggar. The same with St. Thomas Aquinas - he was the prince of Cassino, he had even lead a victorious war with the Papal States at age 12 - he gave up his rich life to become a beggar.
I have studied the pogroms in Poland. The majority of them were carried on both Polish and Jewish people as the pogroms were in border areas or areas under Russian/Soviet Army control. Each time, be it Białystok 1905 or Kielce 1946 there was Russian/Soviet military intervention. My region has suffered enough blackmail in this "pogrom" business. In 1918 and 1919, the pogroms of Daleszyce and Kołbuszowa were two cases of fights between 5/6 drunken Jews and 10/12 drunken Poles. They were drunk, the town of Daleszyce had 5 stores all owned by the fathers of the drunken Jews - some drunken Poles burned them down in retalliation for a lost card game. Yet the world remembers what some drunken Poles and Jews did in 1919 as our immortal sins. It was all a stupid card games. Jews aren't saints either.
"That sentence that the writer is the exegete of the text is illogical."
I was referring to 'Ibn Abbas', and did not name him, seeing that you know so little and bandying names around would make my reply confusing. Your hatred goes so deep that you are impervious to anything new that might go against your notions. I am sorry that my comment is totally lost on you.
When my father sensed that my book reading was making me arrogant, he made me memmorize: "Knowledge is proud that it knows too much. Wisdom is humble that it knows nothing".
You sir know too much. I am no match for you.
Your hatred for Islam is too deep for me to attempt to correct you on your various mistakes. I write for the benefit of those who might read your post and think that there may be any truth in it.
1. Saying that Hindus rejected Islamic rule is quite incorrect. British replaced the Mughals, not Hindus. Had Hindus decided to evict Muslims from India, it would have been quite simple during the 11th & 12th century. There were very few Muslims back then. Muslim rule was blind to the caste system and the countless senseless taboos that had bound the medieval Indian society. That is why average Indian did not support the warring & priestly castes of Hindus.
2. Islam disappeared from Iberia because of mass deportations, mass forced conversions, and persistent persecution. Jews and Muslims paid for Reconquista with their blood and property.
3. How Turks ruled is not my problem, or yours. Neither can you use that to discredit Islam, since you tend to make too much of interpretations as the latter part of your comment suggests.
4. Religious practice figures provided are nonsense. Seeing that you consistently post erroneous information clouded by your hatred, makes any numbers posted by you highly suspect. If you wish to be taken seriously, then please provide trustworthy references.
5. The latter part of your post is just the outpouring of a raving lunatic. No sense in attempting to dissect this rubbish.
Peace from Lahore...
I would never talk to you in reality. I have no need for people from Lahore, Pakistan. Stay in your Lahore. You would probably be afraid of me as most dark skinned people are of pale white, blonde haired, blue eyed northern Europeans. As I said before I hate Islam.
Muslims truly are idiots. Ask a Turk if he can import coffee and tea to Poland. NO. The Turks asks you if you want to convert to Islam. NO. That's all the discussion needed. How idiotic is Islam a religion, that every man is a priest in it and every man is a bishop and has the right to paternalise you on the true teaching of the "Prophet". Islam died with the death of the last Caliph, Abdulmejid. Islam died in 1920. Live with it.
To give you an idea of how people in central Europe act and their culture;
If Anders Breivik could post on TE, he would sound somewhat like you.
Nothing you typed is worthy of response. Intelligent readers can clearly discern your hate-filled thought process. I am glad I could expose you so easily.
Belief in humanity is more important than skin color. When you look at an image of white (slavic) Jesus, then of course that is your idea of god. Does your religion not teach you anything about racism?
Islam died in 1920? You are funny in a FUNNY sort of way. You should get your psychological problems checked. That would help you much; maybe even cure your racism.
Peace from Lahore...
"To give you an idea of how people in central Europe act and their culture;"
Does trash like this pass for culture in your neck of the woods? Daniel Landa? No wonder you are a racist by your own admission.
Thank God somebody else notices humankind is monotonously similar everywhere.
The good news is that none of the pro-give-our-money-away-to-save-the-euro coalitions currently has a majority in any of the polls. Oh you think that isn't good news? Well we care about the peoples and put the peoples first and not the bankers and financial markets.
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text:
We love to gush about the fantasy flicks we love, but are there any that strike you as a stinker, or just disappointing? I've got a few! First I'd probably list the Robin Williams flick What Dreams May Come. The promos looked beautiful with its great special effects and vision of Heaven and Hell, but when I saw the flick, I ended up with a dreary, overwrought soap opera that had too many flashbacks. Big disappointment. Also, I'd add The Neverending Story II: The Next Chapter. The first one was a masterpiece. This sequel is just so-so. And the direct-to-video third one is...ugh. Then there's Legend. It's not too bad, but it always had a weird vibe to it. Tim Curry was awesome in it, though. Finally, I'd put Dungeons and Dragons. Most of the effects are very good, but this flick felt like one half Star Wars, one quarter Indiana Jones, and one quarter Lord of the Rings, mixed in not very distinctively.
The second one was OK. I only really like it cause Jonathan Brandis was in it.... The third one STUNK! The third one didn't even come from the book, which the second one actually did. The first one was a masterpiece - although there were still many many things that they did wrong from the book. The first one (if you saw my long list of movies in the intro thread) is my FAVE movie of all time *crosses arms* I like Legend!! But then again - I'm a unicorn nut And Tim Curry was awesome in it. As was Tom Cruise.
Eragon-the book's good, not the best, but good coming from a boy who started writing at fifteen. But the movie, oh man what a stinker. The acting was laughable, corny lines, and way too much deviated from the book. To enjoy Eragon, you must treat it as a comedy, instead of a fantasy film Earthsea tv movie- NO! I hate it! Too much deviates from Ursula Le Guin's masterpiece, if she hated it, then you know it must be bad. Tip:Avoid this trash at all costs A Wrinkle in Time tv movie: Lesson 1 in book adaptation: do not try and modernize the book, leave it the way it is, searching tesseracts on the computer, IT drinking slushies with Calvin, Mrs. Whatsit talking through a tv., and I know not important but, instead of liver sandwiches and hot cocoa, we get peanut butter and jelly and hot cocoa at the beginning, when the whole family eats together. I'm sorry but everything about this film must have left poor Madeleine L'engle in tears. Movies that I hope are not disasters: The Dark is Rising Spiderwick Chronicles Stardust:Which I am seeing today! The Golden Compass
I loved Legend. The storyline was pretty week, but the way the movie was shot and the AMAZING diversity of fantasy characters was incredible. I'd be willing to be that Peter Jackson's vision of what Orcs look like came from Legend. Tim Curry was brilliant as the devil--showed that even he, the Tempter, could be tempted. And what was that thing beneath the water, the sea hag or something like that? That scared the Corn Pops out of me. I'm hoping they'll put out an anniversary edition of Legend on DVD. I'd love to get something with behind-the-scenes stuff to watch. {I know, I'm a geek for that kind of thing though} Let's see, fantasy stinkers, hmmm: Two in the LOVE/HATE category: The original cartoon of The Hobbit--loved it because of the art, the characterization of Gandalf and esp. Smaug, but that doofy, falsetto guy singing on the soundtrack--eeek, what was that about? Ralph Bashki's Lord of the Rings Movie/Animated Movie--I've read some people's scathing thoughts on this. I actually liked it. I thought Frodo and Gandalf were well done. Aragorn looked like a goon, and Samwise, well, they made him a blithering idiot. But my favorite part was Lothlorien. I thought Bashki was SPOT ON with Galadriel--even better than Peter Jackson's version. IMHO. I guess the only thing I hated about it was that there were no sequels. It ended with the fellowship. I'm sure there must have been some fantasy movie I hated, but I tend to forget movies I don't like.
Oh, does this mean I get to bag Eragon legitimately? Great! Spoilers and Sarcasm Ahead: Hm..let's see..where do I start in on the flaws of this dreadful film? 'I suffer without my stone' - still a favourite, ridiculous quote droned out in ridiculous tones among my friends and I. Hm. My horse can keep up with your huge flying dragon. Yes. Yes, indeed. Here's an idea! Let's sneak into the big bad guy's castle, magically procure a cloak from nowhere and just...walk in, and about, and whatnot. Who cares! Hey, enemies, come on in! We're even giving away free beer. Further to that, ancient dragon-rider can also sneak into the bad guy's castle, take free beer, remain unnoticed by all, including hero, and throw himself...in the nick of time...in front of a spear. Not sure how he managed to get in the room...where did he hide? Behind the spears? Sinister boy in cloak (probably procured from the same place Eragon procured his mysterious cloak) tracks and keeps up with a flying dragon. Sure, we'll assume the dragon has been slowed down by the ailing princess - big fat thing that she is. Let's blast the cute little LOTR rip-off town with fire and brimstone! And...by the end of the huge battle...ah, where's the fire gone? Doesn't look very burnt to me. Love the way Eragon manages his hair...it can magically rearrange itself from artfully mussed to perfectly combed from one shot to the next! 'Only you can save us, Luke..I mean Eragon.'
*ahem* I might get pummelled for this, for there are two HUGE LOTR freaks on this forum (that I know of) ... but, I was extremely disappointed with the second movie, and certain aspects of the first and last. There were many things that were wrong - and yes, I understand making books like that into movies is rather difficult, and just begs for things to be changed. However, what was done in the second movie, was just absurd, and if things had been done per the book, the storyline would've moved on a lot faster. I mean ... Shelob is at the end of the 2nd BOOK, but it got pushed to the third movie, because in the second movie they had Faramir take Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath. Taking them to Osgiliath slowed the story down, so they then HAD to push Shelob to the third movie. Not only THAT, but the battle of Helms Deep was a very small factor in the book, while it becomes the focus of the 2nd movie, stretching that scene out much longer than it really was. And ... I have to ask this. Why didn't Aragorn have THE sword with him throughout all three movies? He had it with him from the beginning of FOTR in the book, in his sheath in two halves, not twenty pieces, and then he had it forged in Rivendell, then took it with him on the quest. *takes deep breath* Ok, small rant over I don't "hate" it - I was just very very disappointed in some of the choices Peter Jackson made. The one movie that I'm hoping won't be a disaster is Inkheart. I LOVE the book, and I am so anxious to see the movie - but it doesn't come out till March (I think) 2008! *cries*
I think Rankin-Bass did a pseudo-sequel to the animated LOTR movie with an adaptation of Return of the King. I've never seen it yet, so I don't know how good it is. Yeah, Legend is fun to look at. I always thought it came off as strange on my initial viewing. I haven't seen it in a while, so a repeat viewing may change my mind. And there is an ultimate edition of Legend available on DVD, with alternate versions, behind the scenes footage, and a Ridley Scott commentary. Click Here. LOL...you know, I actually did think Eragon was a rip-off of Star Wars from start to finish. I mean the actual plot line, point by point, with very few exceptions. It amazed me. What does everyone think of Willow?
I think I have that edition of Legend ... somewhere *looks at calendar* Only another week till I receive my 25th Anniversary Edition of Labyrinth!!! (I'm not excited....) Willow? *galacticlord nods* Wow ... I haven't seen that in ages. *shrugs* I liked it. But like I said - it's been a long time since I've seen it. Long, long time.
and speaking of horses in Eragon... oh, ih, my horse ishn't at ALL scared of your large, giant, freaky, flying dragon. not at all
I know what you mean about some of the annoying changes in the LOTRs movies. But even with them, I still love the movies and they seriously captured Middle Earth so well and set a precedence no fantasy film has come near yet. Stardust comes close (man that movie was so great and the book is too),so does Narnia, but LOTRs was a masterpiece. Some of the deletions annoyed me, but I still love it and rewatch it way too many times for my own good!
Hey, that Legend, under water bog witch or whatever it was--was one of the scariest things I've ever seen to date in a movie--completely freaky looking. I loved the Hobbit cartoon, but hated the Lord of the Rings cartoon for this reason--all of the orcs were so dark that I couldn't see anything. It gave me a headache just trying to watch all of those shadows moving about in the battle sequences. Otherwise it could have been cool. Are we including Sci-fi Fantasy in this listing? There really are too many, but here are some major disappointments for me...Star Trek 5, the one Shatner directed...oh man, it was like a bad root canal...yeah is there a good one? I also thought the "lovey dovey" scenes in star wars Aotc were so horribly forced that it really threw a wrench into an otherwise good prequel sequel. I realize the acting never touched the caliber of the originals, but at least the effects were better and the increased lightsaber fights were nice. James
You can throw in sci-fi if you want. Star Trek V wasn't one of the good ones, but I've never really met a Trek film I couldn't watch. Yeah, the romantic dialogue in AOTC was truly horrible. Why couldn't George Lucas find someone else to write those scenes? He admits he's not a very good writer. It wasn't very good in ROTS either.
I agree with most of your comment. I like the Wrinkle in Time movie. The music gets stuck in your head. (Then again, I'm a music nut, too, so...) I haven't seen the Earthsea TV movie, but I love the books, so I might just pass this one by. What you say about Eragon is 100% true. You might like the book, but you'll probably dislike the movie. If nothing else, for too many plot holes. Watching Ralph Bakshi's LOTR is a soul eating experience. From start, with those pathetic shadow fighters, to finish, with Gandalf riding in on his smiling horse, gypsy music playing in the background, as he kills with bloody efficiency no less than four orcs in close-up. The Dark is Rising: Trailer looks good, but it looked good for Eragon. Spiderwick Chronicles: This one has so much potential... I've got my fingers double-crossed. Stardust: I really want to see this movie. The Golden Compass: The series got worse as it went on, so GC was the best of the three. I'll probably see it. I'll add the Inkheart movie to the list.
The Hobbit cartoon is pretty good. However, I really don't like the portrayal of Gollum. In the books, his speech is very simialar to Peter Jackson's trilogy. I just don't feel that the cartoon really captured him well. The song at the beginning is darn near the best part of the whole movie. "This is the greatest adventure" If you want to see something truly horrendous, search youtube for the video of Leonard Nimoy's Ballad of Bilbo Baggins. WORST SONG EVER!!!!!!!!! Now that my ramblings are over, I really have nothing more to add.
I remember laughing at some parts of the Hobbit cartoon, but I still have nostalgia for it. I remember seeing it for the first time when I was four on Disney Channel, when Disney Channel used to be good and had such classics as Darkwing Duck and Duck Tales, and Return to Oz (Best 80s movie ever other than Princess Bride) Anyways, anyone looking for a fantasy film to go see, I highly recommend Stardust. Even if you have not read the book, you will still highly enjoy it. It was the best movie this summer, it had great humor, classic storyline, and whimsical characters (the onstage antics of Captain Shakespere and the part at the inn with the witch had me spitting out my soda, b/c it was so funny) Awesome movie! My one friend and me saw it again yesterday and now wanna see it for a third time. I am so glad Hollywood got one thing right! I was watching the previews and I nearly passed out watching the Beowulf trailer, it looks awesome and I can not wait to see it. It is being done in 3d animation as Final Fantasy Advent Children is. Also, The Dark is Rising, looks okay, but why do they have to modernize it, sorry, but the movie is started to smell like A Wrinkle in Time, with its over modernization of things. I still have hope though! Anyways, Go see Stardust, if you are looking for a good fantasy film to see. Oh... and Pais Chaos, there is a unicorn in the movie!
I recently saw the trailer for 'The Dark is Rising'. Arrrgh. The original Susan Cooper novels were riddled with dark threads of horror and brilliantly evoked a kind of wickerman-for-children ambience. The movie adaption looks twee, badly-acted and americanized (only something I object to when it's done this badly, and when one of the strengths of the source material is its quintessential englishness).


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Educational Psychology Final Oral
March 13, 1:00pm - 3:00pmManoa Campus, Wist Hall 233
"An Experimental Investigation of the Effects of an Imagery Strategy on Vocabulary Learning and Retention."
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Read: Michael St. Croix One To Watch
At The Pipeline Show, Guy Flaming has been looking at one prospect from each team for a "one to watch" feature and for the Rangers he picked 2011 fourth rounder Michael St. Croix.
Flaming writes that St. Croix has the production level to be a top prospect, but doesn't have everyone convinced he will be.
He adds that some scouts don't see him as a top six player and he doesn't play a style that is conducive to the bottom six.
Flaming writes that this year, St. Croix's final year in juniors, has the potential to be a "massive one" for him.
In June Scott Cullen of TSN said of St. Croix "he is an offensive dynamo, who has improved steadily throughout his three seasons in the WHL. With a couple more seasons of development, St. Croix could be ready for a scoring role on Broadway."
--- Regular Season --- ---- Playoffs ---- Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2008-09 Edmonton Oil Kings WHL 2 1 1 2 0 -- -- -- -- -- 2009-10 Edmonton Oil Kings WHL 66 18 28 46 30 -- -- -- -- -- 2010-11 Edmonton Oil Kings WHL 68 27 48 75 48 4 1 0 1 9 2011-12 Edmonton Oil Kings WHL 72 45 60 105 49 20 7 12 19 6 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CLICK HERE for a section dedicated to St. Croix.
Rex apparently broke down a defensive play here, but clearly that was a filibuster so he could avoid any tough questions.
Cimini has got to go. I'm so tired of him twisting words around in order to put a negative tone on things.
Rich Cimini @RichCimini
Vick says he doesn't see it as an open competition, assumes Smith will start if they're even in the preseason. #nyj
Vick actually said that he feels that if he and Geno are neck and neck, he assumes that Geno will start. Vick knows his role and has accepted it and Cimini is not a fan of that.
I was at this event last night and it was pretty cool. Idzik went through the draft evaluation process, showed some film on every prospect and Rex went over some plays defensive plays. It's easy to see why guys love to play for Rex, he's real passionate about the game. It's like when I watch Rocky and get all amped up, start doing push ups and feel like I ca run through a wall. There was one heckler in the audience who asked Idzik about our corner situation and it was pretty funny, even Idzik had a laugh. Eventually the guy said a little too much and was quietly reprimanded. All in all it was great...The only bad thing I have to say about it is that they only let the first 50 people take pictures with Rex.
@jake100 Didn't you complain the other day about his "no one will want to play us" comment?
@Dave Hohf Cimini just loves to stir the pot. We should all stop paying attention to him and maybe he'll go away...
There was one heckler in the audience who asked Idzik about our corner situation and it was pretty funny, even Idzik had a laugh. Eventually the guy said a little too much and was quietly reprimanded.
I'd love it if you could paraphrase that convo for me, just for poops and giggles.
What I really need to know is what his footwear choices on his vacation are going to be. Does he have any new Calvin Pryor tatoos? and most importantly, How are we going to cover anyone without any CBs?
@tsjc68 @Tequila Joe Tsjc, there is this season ticket holder who I've seen before at other events and he's quite the character. He always wears sunglasses and always seems to be in the middle of it. Idzik was showing some footage I believe about one of our corners (I think it was Patterson if I remember correctly but I did drink a little tequila last night so it's a little fuzzy) and right after he was done talking about the corner the guy stood up and said something like "so who we getting to play corner" totally dissmissing the fact the Patterson or whoever Idzik was talking about was capable of being the guy. Idzik laughed as well as the rest of us because the guy's timing and delivery was flawless. I think Idzik said we'll talk a little more about that in a minute to appease him. He also got up a couple of other times in the middle of Idziks speech to make comments but like I said he was greeted by a someone within the organization and didn't make a peep the rest of the night. It was a good time...
@tsjc68 @Bent @jsadolph
Rex issues apology about missing cut down day and going to Clemson game:
I and the entire Jets organization have been involved in massive cover-up that attempted to cover for my obvious dereliction of duty.
I ask that all in the media, especially Manish Mehta of the NYDN can accept my apology. I promise to be forthright with the media moving forward. Again it was a mistake to try to cover it up and I ask that you judge me on my actions moving forward. Not the senseless actions that have brought us to this moment. Thank you
@jsadolph When will he finally apologize for skipping town on the most important 24-hours of the pro-personnel year?!?!
@SackDance99 @Tequila Joe @tsjc68 He wears a jersey with "CUZ" on the back?
@Tequila Joe @tsjc68BTW, this fan sits in my section, he wears a custom Namath jersey with "CUZ" on back.
@tsjc68 @SackDance99@haroldLet's see if Pryor can match this in his 1st game, which ironically is going to be against Oakland:
Tatum played his first professional game against the Baltimore Colts, in which he tackled and knocked out Colts tight ends John Mackey and Tom Mitchell.
Also, Tatum was the 19th pick of the 1st round...
@SackDance99 @tsjc68 @harold Well, at least we have Eric Smith on staff to teach Pryor how to heads-up tackle safely and penalty-free.
@a57se So can anyone thanks to the advent of video recorded competitions between teams in the NFL.
We're just as impressed by that as you are.
@SackDance99 @tsjc68 @Tequila Joe
If Pryor's anything like Tatum, the AFC East should be afraid, very afraid.
Daryl Stingley's widow just cancelled her season tickets, just to be safe.
(Too soon?)
@tsjc68 @Tequila JoeI was there, too, and for you NFL historians, Rex compared Pryor to Jack Tatum. If Pryor's anything like Tatum, the AFC East should be afraid, very afraid.
I don't care if Calvin gets DROY. But if he can make everyones arms that come across the middle a little shorter he will have done his job in my book.


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50 Cutest PawNation Cats of 2012
countdownAdd a Comment
I recently added a cat to our household. It had been awhile since we had one. I forgot how true this line is; Dogs have masters, cats have staff!
July 14 2013 at 3:22 PM Report abuse Permalink rate up rate down ReplyMy response is a reply to the person who had a 25-year-old cat who was spraying and the writer didn't know why. Fortunately he was an indoor kitty. But if he didn't have a urinary tract infection (when a kitty doesn't use the litter box properly or not at all, immediately go to your vet and check for a UTI), there's a good chance some other kitty/kitties had started coming around your home, and kitty felt like they were invading his territory. So he did what a cat does under those circumstances: he marked his territory so they wouldn't come any further. The answer to that is to humanely redirect their attention elsewhere, generally by making your place uninviting. This can mean simply taking away a garden area that the visitors may be using for their outdoor litter box, eliminating a food source (put the food for your strays elsewhere where there are no windows), and other things too lengthy to address here. But you need to keep the invaders away from the windows where your kitty can see them. If you keep the windows open with just a screen, your kitty would be able to smell the invaders. All you need to do is close the windows. Screen windows and doors aren't safe anyway because it's so easy for a kitty to go through them especially when excited about defending his territory from predators. Tension or stress in the home could be another reason. But you kept him and took care of him. That was good. But next time check for a UTI because they're very painful and can be cured by 7-10 days of antibiotics.
June 21 2013 at 11:06 PM Report abuse Permalink rate up rate down ReplySeveral years ago my cat was being treated for a heart condition and a few days later she died at the vet after bleeding out from undiagnosed asthma. It cost us almost $2,000 and all we got was we are so sorry. We did everything right
June 21 2013 at 2:42 PM Report abuse Permalink rate up rate down ReplyWe have had four cats in the last 35 years. They all lived to a ripe-old age. The last one just passed a way in April, three months short of 23 years old! All of our cats were indoor/outdoor cats. They were healthy and happy!
June 21 2013 at 11:35 AM Report abuse Permalink rate up rate down ReplyWhile these are all very nice options and suggestions, I will tell you this: NOTHING will stop the inherited traits of a cat (or other animal).
My cat got excellent care. She had to be put down New Year's Eve this year because of an UNDIAGNOSED (hear that, veterinarians??) kidney malfunction.
Test Comment win7 IE9
June 04 2013 at 3:56 PM Report abuse Permalink rate up rate down Replytest comment win7 Chrome 25
June 04 2013 at 3:53 PM Report abuse Permalink rate up rate down Replytest comment FF20.0 win7
June 04 2013 at 3:51 PM Report abuse Permalink rate up rate down ReplyDoes anyone know what bred of cat #6 is? it looks like a Cheetah or Leopard. If I were a burgler, I'd be afraid of this cat!
April 08 2013 at 2:07 PM Report abuse Permalink rate up rate down ReplyThis must be a Bengal..they r awesome and gorgeous..im the proud caretaker of one
April 11 2013 at 4:09 PM Report abuse Permalink rate up rate down Reply


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Ruffle-Trimmed Halter Bikini Top - Girls
Cute and great coverage
My girls love these bathing suits because of the cute colors and patterns. I love these bathing suits because of the quality and the coverage they provide for my girls. Every summer, I get my girls two bikinis each so they can mix and match the prints. The suits last through a few seasons until my girls grow out of them. Elastic stays strong. The stitching doesn't break. New design (tie instead of old plastic hook) is an improvement! Thank you Garnet Hill.
August 23, 2014
This top fits great. The colors are vibrant with FUN patterns. The suit looks so cute when it is mix matched! The website recommends sizing down because it runs large. My daughter is 4 with an average build and I bought 3T. It was perfect. I think all of the cordinating bottoms actually run a little big. In the bottoms the size 2T was perfect.
July 10, 2014
Size is a bit tricky
I sized down from what I'd usually order for my daughter, based on the recommendation in the item description. She is a petite size 8. Unfortunately the top was just too short for her, so it was exchanged for her usual size. It is a cute top with bright, fun colors.
May 20, 2014
Cute swim top
Very cute, well made swim top. Colors are bright and very nice fabric!
May 9, 2014
Adorable and great fit!
This top is adorable on my slim just turned 8 year old daughter. I was concerned about the sizing since there was a note on the page that it runs large, but that was for last year's colors. This year both the neck and back are self tie so it is adjustable and gives great coverage for a little girl! I got a size 7 for a very slim tall 8 year old. We love it!
February 9, 2014
good top
this is a great little bikini top. The band is tight enough that it stays put and allows my daughter to be active with out her top coming up on her. They hold shape well and the material is a nice durable fabric.
February 4, 2014
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What does the back of this suit look like? How does it stay secure and how is it adjustable?
Age: 25-34
Gender: Female
2 years, 2 months ago
The back of the top looks like a halter bra top. It ties at the neck and has a 3/4" wide hook-and eye closure with two loops for adjusting. The band continues around from the front and is as wide.2 years, 2 months ago
It is a single hook closure, like many adult bikini tops. Only the neck straps are adjustable.Age: 35-44
Gender: Female
1 year, 9 months ago
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