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Realism in UI Design
The history of the visual design of user interfaces can be described as a gradual change towards more realism. As computers have become faster, designers have added increasingly realistic details such as color, 3D effects, shadows, translucency, and even simple physics. Some of these changes have helped usability. Shadows behind windows help us see which window is active. The physicality of the iPhone's user interface makes the device more natural to use.
In other areas, the improvements are questionable at best. Graphical user interfaces are typically full of symbols. Most graphical elements you see on your screen are meant to stand for ideas or concepts. The little house on your desktop isn't a little house, it's "home." The eye isn't an actual eye, it means "look at the selected element." The cog isn't a cog, it means "click me to see available commands."
Details and realism can distract from these concepts. To explain this, I'll take a page from Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics, a book which should be required reading for all designers.
The image on the left is a face of a specific person. The image on the right is the concept "face;" it could be any person. When designing user interfaces, we rarely ever want to show a specific entity; typically, we want to convey an idea or a concept. Details can easily distract from that idea or concept.
At the same time, it's obvious that some details are required. Too few details, and the user won't recognize the idea at all.
The circle on the left clearly shows a face. The circle on the right isn't recognizable as a face anymore.
Let's look at a symbol we actually see in user interfaces, the home button. Typically, this button uses a little house as its symbol.
The thing on the left is a house. The thing on the right means "home." Somewhere between the two, the meaning switches from "a specific house" to "home as a concept." The more realistic something is, the harder it is to figure out the meaning. Again, if the image is simplified too much, it's not clearly and immediately recognizable anymore.
The thing on the left is a home button. The thing on the right might as well be an arrow pointing up; or perhaps it's the ⇧ key.
Let me explain this concept using an entirely unscientific graph:
People are confused by symbols if they have too many or too few details. They will recognize UI elements which are somewhere in the middle.
The trick is to figure out which details help users identify the UI element, and which details distract from its intended meaning. Some details help users figure out what they're looking at and how they can interact with it; other details distract from the idea you're trying to convey. They turn your interface element from a concept into a specific thing. Thus, if an interface element is too distinct from its real-life counterpart, it becomes too hard to recognize. On the other hand, if it is too realistic, people are unable to figure out that you're trying to communicate an idea, and what idea that might be.
The button on the left is too realistic. The button on the right does not have enough details to be immediately recognizable as a button.
The same applies to these toggles. Shadows and gradients help the user figure out what he's looking at and how to interact with it. Adding too many details, however, ends up being confusing. The toggle switch is no longer just a toggle switch that is part of a user interface, it is clearly recognizable as a photograph of a specific toggle switch; it loses its meaning. It's no longer a symbol, it has become a specific thing.
An Exception
There is at least one specific area where more details are good: application icons. You want your icon to depict one specific idea: your application.
Coda's leaf isn't a representation of the idea of a leaf; it's a very specific leaf, the Coda leaf. Acorn's acorn isn't just any acorn, it's the Acorn. Adding details moves these images from a generic concept towards a specific entity, and in the case of an application icon, this is exactly what you want.
Graphical user interfaces are full of symbols. Symbols need to be reduced to their essence. This helps avoid cluttering the user interface with meaningless distractions, and makes it easier for people to "read" the symbol and figure out the meaning of an interface element. Realistic details can get in the way of what you're trying to communicate to your users.
The goal is not to make your user interface as realistic as possible. The goal is to add those details which help users identify what an element is, and how to interact with it, and to add no more than those details. UI elements are abstractions which convey concepts and ideas; they should retain only those details that are relevant to their purpose. UI elements are almost never representations of real things. Adding too much realism can cause confusion.
Thanks to Max Steenbergen and Cameron Kenley Hunt for helping me form a coherent opinion on this topic. The second house icon is from Dellustrations's icon set "Dellipack".
This article was original posted on Lukas' blog, Ignore the Code.
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Yeah - I have found the same type of stuff here. I have been working with UX design for quite some time. I have done tons of reading from Nielsen and Norman. I just finished redesigning DaddiesBoardShop.com and tried to bring in a side of realism, but while still keeping that "artistic" look. Very good article though.
this is really a great article... & i learn new things regarding UI design...
I solwly slowly come to know about the real value of desingin & there value.
Thanks for sharing such a great information... :)
Fine little article, which touches on what I am working with myself. Have you looked at the new Windows Phone 7.5? This seems to me to be in the far left of your scale, but I believe that it's superior conceptually to the now pretty messy looking Apple iOS (in my opinion after getting used to WP). I predict that the time of Apple's realistic style will be surpassed by the very simplistic type of Microsoft and for once I think they're way ahead of Apple. We'll have to see how it goes, but I don't think you graph is very valid here and it's too much of a simplification. Or at least I would then place WP in the middle in a pretty optimal position and Apple much further to the right with exaggerated style and realism. In my own work I have now moved away from that.
It's interesting looking at this article nearly 2 years on, in light of the more recent efforts by Microsoft (and the many plaudits they have received for it) across their army of OSes. Personally I think their approach is very successful, despite not having any particular nod to realism.
I've been taking these ideas for granted and applying them without any real knowledge behind realism in design.
Great stuff here. Thanks for the article.
I was literally just designing a few nav buttons last night and I thought about using some realistic icons. Tried them out, didn't work at all. Decided to go the complete opposite and use abstract shapes. Didn't work at all. So I gave up and decided to go down the middle :P
Thanks for the article!
Mr Obvious nailed it. This article is for wantabe designers that would actually use the 3D home clipart as a UI icon.
@Ian Chan It's a good point you're making. We should make sure that, if getting very specific while exploring certain topics, we don't distance ourselves from the actual meaning of the concepts we're using.
UI is as much about visual communication through specific UI elements as it is about making sure the interaction with the user is as frictionless as possible. Figuring out what an icon means gets in the way of actual actions and fluent use of an interface. I find this article a good reminder of keeping things clear and simple in designing interfaces.
Thanks for the article, I am doing the first steps in UI design and is quite difficult for me and there are few resources on the web :)... and convincing the client on simplicity and symbolism is even more difficult ... as most of them want photorealistic thing
Thanks for this Lukas. This is something that has always kept me confusing.
At times clients come up with suggestions in interface design, to put real object in an ultra tiny size which makes them barely recognizable.
Now I can easily describe them why its not viable.
wow you simply open my 3rd eye. Now i know the different between icon and application icon.
Thanks man
yeah, i'm a web designer/ui designer and it's a fine line between too real and too ambiguous. If not done right it just makes things awkward and visually disorganized. I've been working on this website Muir Skate Longboard Shop and it's been really fun trying to find that balance between realistic lighting and understandable/usable interface. There's a long way to go because its always a work in progress!
I think there are some instances where a realistic user interfaces works well
For example the virtual effects rack in Propellerhead's Reason. That's a very popular software and it's realistic interface is very intuitive to use.
You said. . .
"There is at least one specific area where more details are good: application icons. You want your icon to depict one specific idea: your application."
How close are company logos to application icons would you say? can you think of any reasons why this rule might apply differently or work differently for company logos?
Thanks for this article: I'm not design trained, but have a comms background so, while I instinctively 'know' all this stuff, I don't find it as easy to articulate to clients/stakeholders as the language and typography aspects. So articles like these might be 'basic entry stuff' it is still valuable to someone like me working in the UI design field.
Moreover, 3rd party assessments like this that I can pass on to others are a big tool in winning the battle for good UI design and always have been.
This is basic entry stuff. First year design school...if that. "This is something that's plagued designers for forever" i mean, come on. If this article is a revelation then good luck to you. You'll need it.
A classic article, well written and concise. I think visual designers of all media have to negotiate this issue everyday. Thanks and I look forward to your next article. Studio_Pugh
This is something that's plagued designers for forever. Balance between being too representational and too abstract.
This is a fantastic article that really lets me understand the concept behind UI design much better. I generally use these kind of stencils but it shifts your perspective.
Thanks again!
Make sure we don't confuse symbols with icons, because historically they are two very different things:
"An icon is a sign which refers to the object that it denotes merely by virtue of characteristics of its own.
A symbol is a sign which refers to the object that it denotes by virtue of a law, usually an association of general ideas, which operates to cause the symbol to be interpreted as referring to that object" (Buchler, 1955)
Your post brings up some very good points, as we have all seen interfaces that lean towards either side of your graph. Like John, I also really like seeing articles like this, which make us always be aware of these issues. I think the word you were looking for the whole time was "Affordance" ;)
Remember, too, that the concept can also be abstracted. The signs we use for men's and Women's restrooms would likely mean that there are rooms filled with those if they were literal. They don't have to be literal; we understand them anyway. Home and envelope and garbage cans are also good metephores that apply. I really appreciate articles like these that offer us a place to point clients to.
This is an idea that I began to explore a little while ago, but you've covered it better and in far more depth than I did.
Excellent read, Great information! Scott McCloud's 'Understanding Comics' Should be a required reading. :)
Almost everything covered, except I would like to read more on depicting realism with typography. I have noticed trends that mimic the embossing left by typewriters or a printing press. (slight text-shadow or highlight) Some people, including myself, may not be entirely sure of the caveats or proper usage for this technique.
oh, and the graph, its superb. I can finally visualize what I'm feeling, thank you!


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Malcesine RC 44 Cup - Team Sea Dubai takes early lead in fleet race By Bernard Schopfer, 4:49 AM Sat 11 Jul 2009 The fleet race contest of the RC 44 Malcesine Cup started this afternoon. As announced by PredictWind, the thermal breeze was blowing nicely after lunch time, allowing Chief Race Officer Peter Reggio to start on time. ...[more] Barker wins Malcesine RC44 Cup Match Race By RC 44 media, 9:56 AM Fri 10 Jul 2009 On great form in the Malcesine RC 44 Cup, Pieter Heerema and Ray Davies (Team No Way Back) started their day by putting a lot of pressure on Cameron Appleton (Team Aqua) during their pre-start, pushing Aqua out of the line prematurely. ...[more] Frank Pong's Team Jelik joins RC 44s for Malcesine Cup By RC44 Association media, 8:53 PM Wed 24 Jun 2009 The RC 44's are at home on Lake Garda. Altogether, ten teams will compete for the Malcesine Cup. Teams are joined for the first time Frank Pong's Team Jelik, from Hong Kong, who has yet to announce the name of his pro-skipper. ...[more] Team Aqua crowned RC 44 Austria Cup champion By Event media, Austria , 4:56 AM Mon 1 Jun 2009 It went down to the last hurdle between No Way Back, Artemis and Team Aqua, separated by two points only before the ninth and last regatta of the event. No Way Back wins the fleet race ranking – on a tie with Artemis – whilst Team Aqua conquers the overall title thanks to its victory in the match race ...[more] Hard fought struggle for RC 44 Cup Match Race title By RC44 media, 11:05 AM Fri 29 May 2009 Cameron Appleton and his team remained under threat until the very last race of the RC 44 Cup Match Race. With one last race to go, Karol Jablonski's Polish team was the only one still in a position to beat Aqua ...[more] RC 44 Austria Cup Day 1 - A tactician's nightmare By Event Media, 7:52 AM Thu 28 May 2009 The teams involved in the RC 44 Austria Cup faced difficult conditions on day one of the Austria Cup, with shifty and irregular winds that tested the tactician's nerves and generated some unexpected come backs and upsets. ...[more] Ray Davies and Paul Cayard join RC 44 Class By RC 44 media, 8:55 AM Thu 14 May 2009 The third event of the RC 44 Championship Tour 2009 will take place in Austria on May 27 - 31. Team New Zealand's Ray Davies joins the RC 44 Class on board Pieter Heerema's No Way Back, whilst Paul Cayard steps onboard Igor Lah's Ceeref. The four leaders of the Tour are separated by four points only. ...[more] Ellison and his BMW Oracle Racing Team win Cagliari RC 44 cup By RC 44 media, 8:30 PM Mon 27 Apr 2009 There were no races in Cagliari today due to the lack of wind. Larry Ellison and Russell Coutts' BMW Oracle Racing are the grand winners of the event, ahead of Chris Bake's Team Aqua and Igor Lah's Ceeref. ...[more] Team Aqua and BMW Oracle share lead at Cagliari RC 44 fleet regatta By RC 44 media, 12:28 PM Sun 26 Apr 2009 Thanks to a first and a third, Chris Bake and his team climbed up the top of the Cagliari RC 44 fleet regatta provisional leader board, alongside Larry Ellison and the BMW Oracle Racing boys and ahead of the brilliant Spaniards from Puerto Calero Islas Canarias. ...[more] Ellison steers BMW Oracle into lead at Cagliari RC 44 fleet regatta By RC 44 media, 5:57 PM Sat 25 Apr 2009 Larry Ellison showed from the first race of the Cagliari RC 44 fleet regatta that he was well in the game, taking a very good start and finishing third of the first race before winning the second regatta, grabbing an early lead in the tournament. ...[more] Baker and Artemis undefeated in the Cagliari RC 44 match race contest By RC 44 media, 8:53 PM Fri 24 Apr 2009 Team Artemis scores an impressive 9 / 0 and wins the match race event ahead of No Way Back, Ceeref and BMW Oracle Racing; all three on a tie with five points each. Today will be remembered as the longest, and certainly one of the hardest match-racing days in the RC 44 Championship Tour history. ...[more] RC 44 fleet faces tricky conditions on Day 1 of Cagliari Cup By Bernard Schopfer, 8:27 AM Thu 23 Apr 2009 Two flights could be completed on day one of the Cagliari Cup match race event. The winners of the day are Team Puerto Calero Islas Canarias, undefeated, and No Way Back, who managed to beat the match race champion Ceeref. Team Aqua, Artemis and BMW Oracle Racing are also unbeaten. ...[more] Pro skippers expect a tough RC 44 contest in Cagliari By RC 44 media, 9:50 PM Wed 22 Apr 2009 The second event of the RC 44 Championship Tour 2009 begins tomorrow in Sardinia. The event marks the beginning of DHL's GoGreen program, aimed at compensating the carbon footprint of the RC 44 Championship Tour. Nine top level teams will compete for the title. ...[more] Strong line up for the Cagliari RC 44 Cup By MaxComm Communications, 7:15 AM Thu 9 Apr 2009 The second event of the RC 44 Championship Tour 2009 will take place in Sardinia on April 22 - 26. Organised by Yacht Club Cagliari, the regatta will assemble nine top level teams on board strict one design RC 44's, including Team Austria who joins the circuit for the first time. ...[more] Team Aqua wins the Puerto Calero Islas Canarias RC 44 Cup By MaxComm Communications, Puerto Calero , 9:29 AM Mon 2 Mar 2009 Chris Bake and his Team Aqua have confirmed their leadership today, winning the fleet regatta ahead of Torbjorn Tornqvist' Artemis and 'lucky' Ceeref. Also winner of the DHL Trophy and second of the match race event earlier in the week, Aqua has received the Championship Tour leader's gold wheels. ...[more] Team Aqua wins DHL Trophy and takes lead of RC 44 fleet race event By MaxComm Communication, Puerto Calero , 8:46 AM Sun 1 Mar 2009 With two victories, a second and a third place, Chris Bake's Team Aqua is the winner of the day. Also on great form, with two second and two fourth places, Torbjorn Tornqvist remains in Bakes' wake in the overall ranking, whilst Maciej Nawrocki's team Organika – with Karol Jablonski at the tactics – shows great signs of improvement ...[more] Calero brothers dominate day one Puerto Calero RC 44 Cup fleet racing By MaxComm Communications, Puerto Calero , 7:30 AM Sat 28 Feb 2009 Puerto Calero Islas Canarias RC 44 Cup. Sailed in very light winds, today's races have been difficult for the crews, who struggled to find the favoured side of the course and get some speed because of the chop. Steering respectively BMW Oracle Racing and Team Puerto Calero Islas Canarias 1, Daniel and José Juan Calero are the heroes of the day, with a victory for each of the local brothers. ...[more] Team Ceeref, with Col, remains the best RC 44 match race team By MaxComm Communication, 8:52 AM Fri 27 Feb 2009 Winner of last years' match race championship, the Slovenian team Ceeref started the 2009 championship in unknown – yet very reliable – hands with substitute driver Sébastien Col. The first flight of the day finally started at 1:30 PM after numerous postponements. Both Team Aqua and No Way Back had fairly easy rides against BMW Oracle Racing (penalised by a premature start) and Organika ...[more] Baptism of fire for Class newcomers at Puerto Calero RC 44 Cup By Bernard Schopfer, Puerto Calero , 7:53 AM Thu 26 Feb 2009 The RC 44 Championship Tour 2009 started today in Puerto Calero with the first matches of Round Robin one. Luis Doreste, Karol Jablonski, Pieter Heerema and many other top sailors participated in their first RC 44 regatta. The conditions were light and unstable, leading to some surprises and upsets. ...[more] RC 44 Championship Tour announces schedule for 2009 By MaxComm Communications, 12:25 PM Wed 11 Feb 2009 The RC 44 Championship Tour 2009 will start in Puerto Calero (Canary Islands, Spain), on February 25. It will then take the fleet to Cagliari (ITA), Gmunden (AUS), Malcesine (Lake Garda, ITA), the South of France and Dubai ...[more]
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Product #: EMC2727032_TQWhy Making Maple Syrup Is Hard Work (Gr. 4/Week 32) (Resource Book Only) eBookGrade 4Ships Free!
Please Note: This ebook is a digital download, NOT a physical product. After purchase, you will be provided a one time link to download ebooks to your computer. Orders paid by PayPal require up to 8 business hours to verify payment and release electronic media. For immediate downloads, payment with credit card is required.
This daily practice unit about a fable that explains why making maple syrup is hard work contains four related paragraphs that have errors in capitalization, punctuation, spelling, and language use. Monday through Thursday, students correct the errors and check answers. On Friday, they follow a prompt to create an original paragraph.
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- Scot Wilcox
- Provo, UT
- United States
This conversation is closed.
Do right and wrong exist?
I'm curious about objective right and wrong. If you believe in God, this is a no-brainer. Some things are wrong, some things are right, simply because God says so and He knows. But if you don't believe in God, can you still believe in objective morality? I personally don't think you can. I mean, what do you base it off of? How do you find out what's objectively right or wrong? (By objective I mean "existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality." from dictionary.com)
Sure, there's subjective morality. Any idea of right or wrong come up with by a human is by definition subjective. That's all well and good. Problem is that it only applies to people who believe in it and it gives them no authority to proclaim anything as "what we should be doing." Very often everybody disagrees with each other and we don't get anywhere. (Just look at Congress for an example of this.)
Maybe you disagree with me and you think there is objective morality but no God. That's fine. I would like to ask you to answer a question for me though. Let's pick an easy one. Why is rape objectively wrong? Don't misunderstand me, I can't think of a single instance where rape wouldn't be wrong. I believe very strongly that sexual abuse is one of the greatest evils in the world. Why is it evil? If you can answer me without using a God-based or subjective argument, I'll concede the point.
That point is this: Without God, there is no such thing as right and wrong, only the things we call right and wrong. And since nobody can agree on what to call what, we're all in a lot of trouble.
Mar 4 2013: *sigh* This is another crap religious argument. My deity defines right and wrong therefore I am right and you are wrong and it is fundamentally okay for me to believe that you are evil and deserve to be destroyed and tortured. If there is a deity he created 2.1 billion Christians and 1.6 billion Muslims whose religion directly contradict each other and whose religion states that those outside it deserve eternal torment. He gave both sides nukes.
Morality is defined by society! It is defined by civilization and not by a magic spirit or special book. If you are a Christian and you believe morality comes from a deity whose will is expressed through a book, the bible in this case, you have to agree that slavery is okay because it is okay in the bible.
And if you look at your last statements you state that without whatever deity you believe in we can't agree on morality. You also use rape as a case in point. So you imply that we can't agree that rape is wrong. Well, guess what, most people agree is rape is wrong despite your implications. I am so tired of this religious crap about how atheists are immoral when priests are raping children and "holy warriors" are flying into buildings to perform mass killing.
So I will present the counter point, if right and wrong comes from "God" how does he communicate it? Is it magically imparted to each member of society and then society generates a moral code? That sounds a lot like moral codes come from society. It comes from a book. Well, the Old Testament clearly indicates racism and slavery are okay and so maybe you are arguing that you would like to own some black people? Or maybe you think the teachings come through prophets? How do we verify a prophet? Muslims have one. Christians have one.-
Mar 6 2013: At least biblical slavery was not so racially based as the us slave industry.
Equal opportunity slavery unless Jewish.
Bright side?Mar 8 2013: ...The author anchored his question to gods, so a few words of wisdom from the past are apt...
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones"___Marcus AureliusFeb 22 2013: I think right and wrong exist on a continuum. It's not always black and white, but there a difference between right and wrong. I am an agnostic and I don't believe that you need to believe in God to recognize the difference between right and wrong. Some of the least moral people I know are "Christians" and some of the most ethical people I know are atheists.Mar 3 2013: Human thought is relative. This may be called 'relativity of mind'. Take away God from the picture and we are left to our wits. Not only we proclaim what is right and wrong based on our perception but also hold on to it as truth and become egoistic about it. There is an element of passion indeed. Take any 'ism' as an example. There are zealots who defend it come what may. If Adam Smith or Karl Marx revisit today they will certainly redefine the concepts. But we will be very hesitant to do so. The point I am making is that no slavery to any idea even if it is good. Freedom of my mind to modify is important.
A criteria for right and wrong can be whether it promotes human welfare or not. This can be Godless but involves empathy for humanity. This love for humanity is natural and in-built. This argument is not in conflict with spirituality.
Spirituality beyond religion may eventually dawn on us and probably lead us to the path without intellectual hair splitting.-
Mar 3 2013: I agree.
Suggest we can be spiritual in an atheist way too.
No gods. Just exploring our consciousness and the universe.-
Mar 3 2013: If the exploration of the universe (or 'physical realm') is known as science, is the empirical method our prayer? :PMar 4 2013: Universe fascinated man for centuries. The scientific method has been rigorous and was a great leap forward from superstition but is prevelant in the last few hundred years. On the other hand man's wonder and fear resulted in several erroneous conclusions over several millenia. This may be called 'empirical'. Having said that I am open to the fact that intuition and great humility resulted in understanding the final reality by very few. in do think with a genuine prayer on the lips we will get more spiritual. The problem of all religions is the organization ,grouping, rules, books-in the process lose the original truth. Somehow prayer to me is something more than empiricalMar 3 2013: A Sethuramiah, your remarks were so well put that I have just shared them with a friend on another forum.Mar 3 2013: A Sethuramiah,
In my years on this Earth, I have modified my thinking many times on many subjects. You stated it very well. We need to be able to do this in order to grow and become.Will Menta
- +1
Mar 4 2013: This reply states my own feelings very well. We should measure the effect we have on other humans and on the wider world. Try to be aware to what extent we are spreading pain and suffering and what extent we are spreading joy and love.Feb 27 2013: I've read a delightful Zen story on the internet recently:
"A wise Zen frog was explaining to the younger frogs the balance of nature: "Do you see how that fly eats a gnat? And now (with a bite) I eat the fly. It is all part of the great scheme of things."
"Isn't it bad to kill in order to live?" asked the thoughtful frog.
"It depends . . ." answered the wise frog just as a snake swallowed the Zen frog in one chomp before the frog finished his sentence.
"Depends on what?" shouted the students.
"Depends on whether you're looking at things from the inside or outside," came the muffled response from inside the snake."-
Feb 27 2013: Wise man said Vegan need B12 or else get sick. Nature is beautiful and so is eating.Feb 28 2013: From my personal view, I don't think it's bad to kill in order to live, if it's really unavoidable.
I don't even talk about the laws of nature.
Say, a man point the gun against your head and states himself clear that he is going to kill you. And you happened to also have a gun. Would you shoot first?-
Feb 28 2013: i should think a quick roll of the head and a shot to the shoulder could be enough...is there an unavoidable situation?Feb 28 2013: Let's rewind your question to the root. We can hardly make a step without stepping on a living creature. We cannot make a single breath without consuming oxygen and "polluting the air" with carbon dioxide. Is it moral to LIVE? Do we have a choice?
Perhaps, requiring more than bare necessities while blaming others for doing so is what makes us evil. Hence, "...give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
As for your question, I do not own guns specifically because I don't want to have to answer it. I didn't choose to live. Let it be not my choice to die or to end someone else's life. This is my way to avoid death which is unavoidable.
Although, I don't believe that there is "objective morality", some circular concepts are self-consistent which makes them irrefutable and, hence, absolute. E.g. you cannot prove false a statement "this statement is true". The golden rule of morality is of the same nature. Specific moral rules would change depending on who "YOU" are in "as YOU would have them do to YOU" and morality evolves as we do, but the principle remains unchanged - "absolute".
By the way, the golden rule only works assuming that everyone wants same things. Which is only true at the level of bare survival needs. So, when we desire things beyond "our daily bread", the golden rule becomes much harder to use.Feb 28 2013: humourously true.Eric Hiner
- +4
Feb 27 2013: God or no God, doesn't subjective ultimately become objective? We are never born fully developed from a physical, mental or social perspective. Thus, I would hope we learn, what is right or wrong, from a combination of observing behaviors and responses and asking questions and seeking answers. We ultimately don't need "God" to decide that rape or any other social behavior is wrong. A consistent negative response to the behavior is all that is needed.-
Feb 28 2013: Exactly! The word rape was invented for such cases, otherwise if it weren't bad it would be called sex. 100 out of 100 people would say they would rather have sex than be raped.
Mar 1 2013: Not quite I suggest. There are all sorts of outliers in regards to masochism.Feb 22 2013: People who believe that they have to be righteous because God is watching are evil.
People should be righteous because they want to be.-
Feb 22 2013: This is true. People who are righteous just because God is watching are not righteous.Feb 23 2013: As an atheist I understand your point of view... I only want to say that your statement is inflammatory(this is rich coming from me, but I'm learning) & only strengthens the pov of the believer. Further there are studies showing that belief in something or someone 'watching' over us is more than a common factor in our history, but a hardwiring in our evolution. Even skeptical minds have tendencies, though much less, to fall prey to this basic human behaviour. My girlfriend doesn't have a skeptical mind by any means & though she says she believes in god, isn't a member of any church... She always thinks that dead relatives are watching over her. I suspect that this belief affects her behaviour, even if only by a small degree... & I certainly don't think she's evil.
Feb 23 2013: It's perhaps not a bad test. Would I do this if people I love could see me?Feb 23 2013: perhaps I should've added 'only' infront of because.
I don't mean to say that religious people are evil.... I just mean that when their motivation to 'do good' / 'be righteous' / (other positive behaviour) is based upon "someone who can punish me is watching" means that when you remove that someone their reason will disapear.
Religious people are not forced to have that motivation, many of them do good just because they want to.-
Feb 23 2013: This sort of thing is difficult for the non-believer to grasp, the idea that we do good because we love God and because we love good and not because we are afraid of God. Glad you brought this up.
Felix Smith
- +3
Mar 8 2013: The problem with the question you pose is that you have to assume that there is objective morality at all, this might be reasonable to the confines of you belief but it doesn't hold true in the world as we understand it. Quite simply, you cannot be independent of your thoughts, you are an observer of your reality.. therefore objective reality can't be thought of as existing. So you cannot find out what is "Objectively right or wrong", we can't prove that any holy text was written by god, we can't prove any 'prophet' actually heard the voice of god, and not just the voice in his head, and we can't prove there is a god. So the only thing you can know about an objective truth is that you cannot know if one exists.
The obvious answers to the question you pose is simply the emotional and physical damage that the act causes not only to the victim but to the victims loved ones as well. Or in fact anyone that learns of the incident and feels the empathetic pains. There is also the implications to consider of self-suffering within the attacker who would feel tremendous guilt if they are not devoid of emotion or empathy; and if they are devoid of emotion and empathy then imagine the suffering already bestowed upon them that their mind might close down entirely their ability to feel. It's the over all effect of large human suffering that we can safely determine that rape is wrong. I can't imagine being able to argue it more reasonably or rationally than that.Mar 7 2013: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyd6om8IC4M
this answers your question, you're welcome.Jacob Clark
- +3
Mar 6 2013: Your argument is that without God one cannot have any clear ability to discern right from wrong?
Lets assume (as I do) that religious texts are primarily false but well meaning anecdotes. That would mean that we created them. In this reality, we would also have created the "right and wrong" that some believe to have been divine. As one with no religious affiliation, it is some what insulting to assume that if I see someone being killed, that I only know it to be wrong because you say it is. Or would it make more sense that my internal conscience tells me not to remake or condone atrocities in general?
Right and wrong is an ideal that is developed (developing) with human evolution of intelligence. This theory is supported by how we now see that some things we thought were wrong (biblical or religiously; such as homosexuality) are actually inherently wrong to defy.Dorian Knus
- +3
Mar 4 2013: Really?
There is no such thing as Objective Morality.
If you hurt someone, is wrong.
Religion has nothing to do with this.Feb 27 2013: The question you are asking is whether morality is learned.
"From Sigmund Freud to Jean Piaget to Lawrence Kohlberg, psychologists have long argued that we begin life as amoral animals. One important task of society, particularly of parents, is to turn babies into civilized beings — social creatures who can experience empathy, guilt and shame; who can override selfish impulses in the name of higher principles; and who will respond with outrage to unfairness and injustice. "
Harvard psychologist Paul Bloom has looked for evidence of morals in babies.
"A growing body of evidence, though, suggests that humans do have a rudimentary moral sense from the very start of life. With the help of well-designed experiments, you can see glimmers of moral thought, moral judgment and moral feeling even in the first year of life. Some sense of good and evil seems to be bred in the bone."
Another way to approach the question is whether humans are the only animal that demonstrates a sense of morality.
For aan answer we can turn to Frans de Waal, who studies primate social behavior.
"Empathy, cooperation, fairness and reciprocity -- caring about the well-being of others seems like a very human trait. But Frans de Waal shares some surprising videos of behavioral tests, on primates and other mammals, that show how many of these moral traits all of us share."
De Waal summarizes by saying, "I believe there's an evolved morality. I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about, but it would be impossible without these ingredients that we find in other primates, which are empathy and consolation, pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness."-
Feb 27 2013: I agree we seem to have an evolved morality, but suggest with an overlay of cultural programming.Feb 27 2013: I don't know. I've read the articles regarding children and primates with regard to empathy and morality but to me it boils down to simple common sense.
Imagine being a caveman. You are alone and starving and need to eat. You come across another caveman, you can either fight, which is just fine, or you can team up and hunt together. Teaming up and hunting together sounds more appetizing than killing the other caveman and eating them. Something about roast Woolly Mammoth, mmm mmm good. You two assumes that anything you catch will be split 50/50, why, because that is what is FAIR. No one likes unfairness. Being fair is MORAL. Anyway, as soon as you team up you have just now entered an agreement with each other. You expect the other one to tell you the truth if he sees an animal to hunt. If he lies to you and you go off for miles hunting what was a lie (didn't actually see the prey) you will be pissed off beyond belief. Why? Because he lied to you, it's that simple. Lying is immoral. Telling the truth is MORAL. Now what if you two finally caught something and the other one decides to cut you out of your 50/50 agreement and take more for themself? You would be pissed off beyond belief! Why? Because doing unto others things which they do not agree to is IMMORAL. Lastly. Say that you two, as you are hunting, see an injured caveman. He will live but he needs shelter, some rest, and some nourishment. Do you keep on walking or do you help him? I'd help but I wouldn't blame someone else for not helping. Empathy, being strange, is to be measured by the individual wielding it. I can't speak about others' empathy but I can speak all day about others' lying or doing things to other people that they don't agree to.-
Feb 27 2013: I'm not sure how much common sense young children have, but they seem to have an innate sense of fairness at a fairly young age. I would be surprised if this is a product of reasoning.
But I agree with our adult human reasoning faculties we can see how cooperation, fairness and other group dynamics humans have (and some other mammals, especially primates) would benefit survival, so if there is any genetic disposition involved it would be likely to be promoted by natural selection.
I don't think other mammals are using reasoning to conclude they should work as a group. It is innate.
Just to be a pain, but I suggest sometimes it is moral to do something to others that you wouldn't want done to yourself, and that they don't want you to do to them. If someone is a threat to society it is reasonably moral to lock them up in my view. I don't want to be locked up and neither do they, but it makes sense for the greater good.
If that other caveman was an enemy that killed your mate would you still help him?-
Feb 28 2013: No, I wouldn't help the caveman who killed my mate. I'd probably finish him off.
A criminal has already done harm to someone else that didn't agree to it. Their punishment is restraint from doing it again and also just rehabilitation. They may not agree to their punishment but then they shouldn't of harmed another person. I don't want to be locked up myself so I don't commit crimes against others.Feb 27 2013: This whole scenario that you have described is a subjective fabrication, it suggests that you hold a strong internal sense of what is right and wrong. This is a subjective morality. Where is the evidence of an objective morality?
Do you see a form of morality in other animals? Is it learned? What forms of morality do we se in babies? Do animals and babies deceive or lie? Do they have a sense of fairness?Feb 27 2013: The research whether animals have morals begs a question. We can determine that animals have empathy, that empathy is evolved, etc. But we need to presume that empathy is moral. How do we know that?-
Feb 27 2013: To be clear, de Waal states that morality evolves out of several things which he sees in other animals:
1. Empathy and consolation
2. Pro-social tendencies
3. Reciprocity and fairness.
He states: "If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?" these are the two factors that always come out. One is reciprocity, and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness. And the other one is empathy and compassion. And human morality is more than this, but if you would remove these two pillars, there would be not much remaining I think. And so they're absolutely essential."-
Feb 27 2013: Theodore, I have no doubt that scientific research can show that animals have the three items you list and that they are a product of evolution.
By the way, accepting that all living creatures are a product of evolution implies that all traits they have are also a product of evolution.
I also agree with the reasoning that morality is based on reciprocity and compassion. However, this statement does not come from science. To make this statement, we need to already know what morality means, and this knowledge is not scientific.Feb 27 2013: Its very interesting.
What is morality from a human perspective?
I guess it often but perhaps not always relates to group dynamics, favoured behaviours, social cohesion etc. Perhaps the cultural overlay might add some complexity that might not fit.
If it is about groups, then might not other similar animals have a kind of proto morality?Feb 27 2013: What is the origin of the word "moral?"
Morals are concerned with or adhering to the code of interpersonal behavior that is considered right or acceptable in a particular society. We are differentiating between to types of morality, objective and subjective. De Waal is observing a basis for objective morality and identifies empathy and reciprocity. It is this basis that requires a scientific investigation, such as Bloom's inquiry into babies behaviors.
The rest is just rule making and subjective: ( morals) a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do : the corruption of public morals.
• standards of behavior that are considered good or acceptable.
see ethical, honorable, righteous, virtuousFeb 22 2013: "Without God, there is no such thing as right and wrong..."
Without god? Which god?
Most of humanity believes in a different god than you, or none at all. One can easily look around the world and see billions of people who do not share your belief, yet many of these people behave rather admirably, often under trying circumstances.
One wonders why you posed the question since you are certain of your answer....Feb 22 2013: Simple.
Love = right. Hate = wrong.
Everything else is open for individual interpretation.-
Feb 23 2013: I disagree with you....
If I hate somebody because he hates everybody else, or if he does something bad, then does it neccessarily make me bad?
Then, we can go deeper down thinking what "Hate" and "Bad" means, but my opinion is that you cannot really set "Love" and "Hate" as the absolute standard for "Right" and "Wrong" completely ignoring what is behind them.-
Feb 26 2013: Well, I was taught to love even my enemies. I believe hate to be the motive behind everything that is going wrong in the world. Plus it is also an undeniable burden. If we loved more, forgave more, and hated less... I sincerely believe there would be less "wrong" to go along with it. In response to your first sentence, no it does not make you bad. However, it does nothing to help the situation. Hate makes situations negatively stagnant.Feb 27 2013: Re: "If I hate somebody because he hates everybody else... then does it neccessarily make me bad?"
Does it make you different from the person you hate?Feb 28 2013: "If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us." -- Hermann HesseSean Brother
- +3
Feb 21 2013: Sometimes it depends on who is more powerful, prominent or strong. . .Or may be for someone, it depends on your sunglasses' colour. To me, it depends on a natural feeling beating down in the bottom of our hearts which tells us inmediately if something we're doing or thinking is wrong or right. We usually can guess it subconciously.-
. .
- +1
Feb 21 2013: You are right about " depending on a natural feeling beating down in the bottom of our hearts which tells us immediately if something we're doing or thinking is wrong or right." -We are 'hard wired' with an inner compass. Here's a quote I love: " The only thing that doesn't follow majority rule, is personal conscience."-
Feb 21 2013: I sincerely agree with you. And I also love -it's real- your statement "we are 'hard wired' with an inner compass". It's true. We, philosophy lovers, call it something like 'natural law', (nothing to do with Nature).
Linda Taylor
- +3
Feb 20 2013: Of course there is objective right and wrong.
I am right.
You are wrong.
And that is about as objective as it gets. Any married man understands this..Mar 8 2013: Very muddy topic. Of course right and wrong exist. If they didn't our society would not function. Anarchy is not a sustainable system. Chaos is bad order is good. But too much order can be very bad. No order at all is worse. The first known system of laws was found to have originated about 9,000 years ago. Since then society has become more complex and law has followed accordingly.Sherry Zhang
- +2
Mar 5 2013: Religion is actually tell what should do, what should not, religion can guide our action, but can not determine action people take. That is why we need law to decide what is right, what is wrong.-
Mar 5 2013: There are situations beyond religion and law, and sometimes they are not totally correct, because they change what they had said before.
What about them ?-
Thiyagu Jay
- +1
Mar 5 2013: I believe, religions were born out of the believes, rights and wrong as established by like minded people who presented them in the name of God, to gain immediate acceptance and avoid irrational and unanswerable questions. The religions have evolved over a period and hence there is nothing wrong if new definitions are created for situations that did not exist earlier or were not adequately handled.
For example, it is said that Buddism is born of Hinduism and a lot of similarities can be seen. And among Hindus there are several sub-sects based on differences in believes (or rights and wrongs) that indicate that oldest religion in the world has allowed and tolerated evolution of its constituent rules on rights and wrongs.-
Mar 5 2013: A question:
Does it mean religions are true ?
And if they are, do you agree that a rule cannot be true forever, and you should think about it yourself ?
So ... religions are just guidances. This is you who should judge and decide.Mar 5 2013: I kind of agree about your thesis on religions evolving.
They may be useful social technologies for teaching a particular moral view.
Their weakness is they often rely on supposed divine command via scriptures and revelation, coming up with different answers, and usually not providing a way to assess what is moral beyond the bible or sutras or pope says so.Mar 5 2013: Religion is fascinating and helpful, but it should not completely dictate how people live their lives.Harry Downes
- +2
Mar 3 2013: We perceive reality through illusions and stereotypes born from our living necessity of the processing and resultant categorisation of information: hence, because our experience of reality is wholly subjective, morality is intrinsically subjective. However, as we are generally social beings, we attempt to create an inclusive, universal morality to establish a suitable moral paradigm for our interaction and societies: no matter morality's innate subjectivity.Mar 2 2013: if one of these exist, then must the otherFeb 23 2013: Shakespear wrote "There is nothing right ot wrong, but thinking makes it so."
Right and wrong are value judgements. .
- +2
Feb 21 2013: Of course.........Standing is right. Standing on someone's foot is wrong.-
Feb 21 2013: So anyone who cannot stand is wrong??
. .
- 0
Feb 21 2013: Standing is right. Standing on someone's foot is wrong. (figure of speech)....
Everything, everyone, everybody, every "body" has a "stand" that is their own and to all of which they are entitled in its entirety....(including all its extensions, like "feet" and finger tips" on a "body")Stina Åmo
- +2
Feb 21 2013: Many interesting answers here already, but I want to try answer: "Why is rape objectively wrong?"
It is objectivly proven via statistics, that I will not go into here, that beeing a victim of rape heightens the chanse for trauma which in turn heightens the chanse for negative personal effects; Such as depression, eatig disorders, anxiety, the list goes on and on. People exposed to trauma tend to need more and produce less.
Lets then assume that the perpetrator might not be evil, as we have no proof he is, objectivly. Lets assume he is a normal man (or even a woman) that wants to live in a safe and well functioning society, prefrebly one with a good ecconomy. How can we tell something about this want, objectivly? Again, I think we can prove this both psycologicly and statisticly. The flow of people from areas/countries with poor functioning societies/ecconomies comes to mind.
The more traumaticed people he/she have around him/her, the less chanse he/she will have to live in such a society.
Hm. Yes. This question WAS easy. We do not have to go into complicated morals, not even "good or bad" to answer, a simple "cause and effect" is enough to prove that rape is objectivly wrong.
Or what say you?Feb 19 2013: Have you ever made a mistake or done a wrong. even without Gods intervention for a sec. have you ever done something and had a guilty conscience afterward. youve known deep within yourself that what you did was wrong. Your conscience is yours , it wasnt directed by God and isnt controlled by him, its part of who YOU are the real you. everyone conscience is their own private one. God can only strive with yours to allow you to see the truth of his purposes, to guide you if you want to or not for your benefit.
Gods name was slandered in the garden of eden , his right to rule was brought into queston , his sovereignty was at stake Gods name was brought into disrepute. Man in effect said to God we can manage without you, so God put them out of the paradise and allowed time to pass to see if man can rule without God. And have they?? Has mankind made a good job of living together. They are destroying the planet,killing and bombing in wars fighting everyday, we see starvation on a mass scale. see 2Tim 2 1-6 we know from scripture we are in the last days. math 24 tells of a sign that Jesus gave when he would "come". It involved a composite list of EVENTS that by seeing them one would know that he was present. It was like a fingerprint in time. he said not to be misled, to not believe people who came on the basis of his name saying they were he, why,? because he was returning invisibly, only those with spiritual eyes of discernment would know that Jesus was turning his attention to the end of days. When you see the signs as in mat 24 you will know he has returned in power as King. Like when someone rings your doorbell you dont see them do you, the bell is a sign that some is present. Jesus went back to heaven when he died waiting till his enemies were made a footstool for him. He did not become King till the witnessing of the signs that we see today. The bible says on becoming King he will clear satan from heaven, wow to earth because the devil has now a short time ...-
Feb 20 2013: Firstly I'm not aware of any compelling proof for any gods or goddesses let alone Yahweh.
Secondly, I guess you subscribe to divine command. The creator of the universe gets to set the rules and do anything it likes with its creations like sending them for eternal punishment, drowning the entire planet etc.
Glad there is no evidence of a divine dictator.
I note the bible is a confusing array of stories and multiple perspectives of a god. I note believers disagree how to interpret it. Pretty poor effort by the creator if it does have a clear plan for us. It doesn't even seem to exist.-
Feb 20 2013: Well said my friend.
Yuri Gomez
- +2
Feb 14 2013: The thing with a modern rationalist is that he seems to say, with a profound conviction that:
"Everything depends on the context, it just depends on what you believe, which is pure subjectivity. but it excludes me"-
Comment deleted
Yuri Gomez
- +2
Feb 14 2013: I would say that people who really believe something are busy acting upon them. They are not looking for evidence of their believes in a clever argument.Feb 23 2013: "you're never going to talk anyone out of their most dearly held beliefs."
You needn't talk most people out of their most dearly held beliefs. Not when you live in a mostly rational society. But sometimes things go awry and people are led down the garden path by a demigod like Joseph McCarthy or an ultimately destructive leader like Adolf Hitler. Then you need people like Senator Margaret Chase Smith and Edward R. Murrow to speak out or you might need an army of allies well supplied with arms and intelligence officers. Or maybe you need a Carrie Mathison (Homeland)?. But it was only Smith And Murrow there who were just talking. And talk they did, God love them.


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Sh**ty Charmander
Location: Finland - Suomi
Joined Jan 30, 2012 at 04:28PM EST
- About
I am mostly just surfing KYM and making comments (as you can see from the chart above).
I'm sorry if there is some mistakes on my English.
If you see anyone (eg. in Steam or YouTube) named "mrZalli" or "misterZalli" it almost certainly is me.
My Tumblr blog
My Twitter account
I like:
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• I also like Bobby Yarsulik, Savlonik and Capsule.
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• Two's powers (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, …)


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Jennifer Garner Print Blouse
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with "RIFS-ES-SCHEDULER-3.5.x Hotfix For RIFS Offical Emergency" the kernel compiles without errors
but rsyslogd fails on boot (similar to https://code.google.com/p/rifs-sched...es/detail?id=2)
root@tux:/var/log# rsyslogd
Error during class init for object 'rsyslog runtime' - failing...
rsyslogd initializiation failed - global classes could not be initialized.
Did you do a "make install"?
Suggested action: run rsyslogd with -d -n options to see what exactly fails.
rsyslogd run failed with error 22 (see rsyslog.h or try http://www.rsyslog.com/e/-22 to learn what that number means)


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text: GasBuddy Blog -- Long have we heard complaints from some of our users that some gas stations have been putting significant holds on customers who choose to use credit cards. While I had never personally seen such a thing happen to me, I was "lucky" enough to have it happen to me last weekend.I pulled into a travel stop in Burns Harbor, Indiana, on a motorcycle, with a measly 4.5 gallon tank. I only needed to top off, so I bought just a couple gallons of gasoline, left, and didn't think much of my $12 purchase.After looking at my credit card transactions online later that afternoon I learned that the travel center in question put a massive $151 hold on my credit card- all for $12 in gasoline. In past situations, I'd notice a $1 pre-authorization... Read the Full Article


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The Nationals' first base dilemma may finally be nearing its resolution.
Derrek Lee has agreed to terms on a one-year contract with the Orioles, according to the Baltimore Sun. Lee, 35, must still pass a physical before the deal becomes official, but that's expected to be a formality.
Which leaves Adam LaRoche as the lone first baseman of significance remaining on the free-agent market, and the Nationals as the lone remaining club looking to sign a significant first baseman. LaRoche, who hit .261 with 25 homers and 100 RBI for the Diamondbacks last season, has been seeking a three-year contract. The Nats, according to club sources, are willing to offer him a two-year deal.
LaRoche, 31, must now decide whether to accept the Nationals' offer or hold out in hopes another team needs help at first base and comes calling.
- Farid Rushdi - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:17 PM
I think that my choosing first, the Orioles made the Nationals a better team.Lee might hit .280-30-100 (meaning his off-year was due to his thumb) or he might hit .250-20-75 (which means his off-year was due to age).At 35, I think it's the latter and not the former.With LaRoche, you wind him up and he gives you .265-25-90 plus solid defense.If no one else offers him three-years, then he has to sign with Washington. However, I'd give him a drop-dead date to sign. The team just can't wait forever for him to make up his mind.I think the Birds did us a favor.
- SonnyG10 - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:18 PM
Now things should get interesting.
- Knoxville Nat - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:22 PM
Stay with the 2 year offer. But get it dunn.
- Anonymous - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:24 PM
This signing is great news for National fans. We need a left handed power bat. I would take Laroche over Lee and Pena.
- Anonymous - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:26 PM
Give him three years. The Nats can always trade him later. Someone will need help sooner or later. He is a proven commodity. He helps us as long as we need him. And he helps us when we don't need him any longer and we trade him for whatever.fpcsteve
- Natbiscuit - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:27 PM
Laroche is the better fielder, but strikes out too much. A two year deal is tradeable in 2012, but a three year deal would be harder to move.
- phil dunn - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:28 PM
Lee had a hand injury this past season which negatively impacted his performance and his power. He's clearly a better hitter than Laroche, who has been plagued by long early seaon slumps throughout his career.
- Anonymous - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:34 PM
I'd rather gamble on a Mike Morse/Nick Johnson platoon than give big bucks to Laroche. Spend the money on a decent starting pitcher.
- Anonymous - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:38 PM
No to Nick Johnson. He will spend half (or more!) of the season on the DL.
- DepotMaster - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:39 PM
Sad. Just sad. Our best move would have been a 1 year contract and more choices next year. Lee has been a better hitter by far during his career. And a one year contract would have gotten us potential for choices like Fielder, Gonzalez, Pujols in 2012 (or Lee!). .265 is a joke for a 4-spot hitter.At this point I'd rather they go after Jim Thome and if needed platoon him with Michael Morse. Not understanding why they couldn't pull the trigger for an extra 1/2 million and get the better guy.Has anyone said why Lee chose Baltimore?
- Anonymous - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:40 PM
What decent starting pitcher?
- raymitten - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:51 PM
I would have preferred Lee to Laroche, and Dunn to either one. But now there is one decent option left. If the Nats go into the season with Cssey Kotchman, Nick Johnson, Russell Branyan or Mike Morse as a starting first baseman, how can they possibly expect anyone to take them seriously? Get Laroche. Whatever it takes.
- SonnyG10 - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:52 PM
This comment has been removed by the author.
- Sunderland - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:54 PM
Seems to me this is exactly what Rizzo wanted. He didn't much care which one he got, but whichever one it is, when he's the last one out there, the player has no leverage and the team does.So, he gets to sign LaRoche to a two year deal, since by now LaRoche and agent knows there is no one else out there willing to do so.I also like LaRoche over Lee, partly just because LaRoche, while he has less upside, he also has less downside. And I'm very glad it's not a one year deal, because there is zero chance in a fully competitive market that we will win a bidding war for Prince Fielder, Adrian Gonzalez and Prince Albert.Gonzalez will extend with Boston. They didn't give up prospects to just have him for one year. They agreed to parameters of an extension before the trade was executed.Prince weighs 270 Lbs and every NL team will see him as more of a risk than every AL team. his best long term offers will come from AL clubs.Pujols will stay a Cardinal or St Louis will burn.This is the right move.
- SonnyG10 - Dec 31, 2010 at 9:55 PM
I read somewhere that neither Lee nor LaRoche wanted to come to the Nationals so an extra half million might not have been enough to get Lee.
- Anonymous - Dec 31, 2010 at 10:00 PM
If Nick goes down, then we still have Morse, who hits right handed pitching nearly as well as left. That's a win win. Morse could turn out to be a real jewel but we will never know if he rides the bench.
- Grandstander - Dec 31, 2010 at 10:01 PM
If I know Mike Rizzo, I think Casey Kotchman just got offered 1 year for $3 million.
- Farid Rushdi - Dec 31, 2010 at 10:01 PM
LaRoche said in December he'd come to DC if the numbers were right. I mean, he just lived through the horror of being a Diamondback, so being a National on an up & coming team is a plus.
- HHover - Dec 31, 2010 at 10:04 PM
I'd have preferred D Lee, but LaRoche for 2 years seems like a fine deal to me. And I agree with Sunderland about next year's FA market–if you think we're getting Pujols you're crazy, and I think a long-term bet on Prince Fielder would be pretty crazy too. So if nothing else, LaRoche for 2 years helps the Nats avoid that temptation.
- JayB - Dec 31, 2010 at 10:04 PM
I agree, we need the LH Bat who is not likely to get hurt or hit the age wall this year or next. If they do not sign Adam L to a 2 year deal then Rizzo has some explaining to do. It is time to lock in the roster and they can not afford to have so many misses……They blew the early signing of pitchers…and it is clear people still do not want to play here….so they need to over pay the right LH 1B….Dunn would have been my choice but Rizzo wants defense so he better be right about Adam L!
- SpotsyNats - Dec 31, 2010 at 10:10 PM
For what is worth (werth?) here are the fielding comps (from mlb.com):Dunn: 153 games, 13 errors, 93 assists, .990 FPCTLee: 144 games, 7 errors, 116 assists, .995 FPCTLaRoche: 146 games, 11 errors, 122 assists, .991 FPCT
- Anonymous - Dec 31, 2010 at 10:12 PM
What decent starting pitching? Well, it's pretty much gone although Pavano and Millwood are still out there and they eat innings. The starting pitching has not been improved despite Rizzo's pledge to do so. These starters will wear out the bullpen very quickly, just like they did last year & without Capps the bullpen is probably weaker.
- JayB - Dec 31, 2010 at 10:15 PM
While I would have liked to keep Dunn…..those fielding comps are worthless as are the new fielding Zone ones….just watching the games shows you Dunn was a really bad 1Ber…..he let some many balls go right by him and be was so bad on one hop balls it was embarrassing for him… but those were not his errors….Zimm and Ian D got charged with most all those.
- Anonymous - Dec 31, 2010 at 10:18 PM
No way Pujols, Fielder or Gonzalez would ever play here. It probably doesn't excite Laroche either.
- SpotsyNats - Dec 31, 2010 at 10:26 PM
…and offensive comps: AB HR RBI K BB SLG OPSDunn 558 38 103 199 87 .538 .892Lee 547 19 80 134 74 .428 .774LaRoche 560 25 100 172 52 .468 .788
- Sunderland - Dec 31, 2010 at 10:29 PM
JayB, agreed, fielding comps, worthless.Same for outfielders. Nyjer doesn't get an error when he throws to the wrong base and runners advance, or when a runner scoots to third knowing Nyjer does not have the arm to threaten him.And while I did post earlier that we would not get Pujols, Fielder or Gonzalez, I'm not agreeing they "would never play here". It's just that Pujols and Gonzalez are almost certain to re-sign with their respective teams, and Fielder, as the one top flight 1B FA next year, with open bidding among all AL and NL teams, will end up with AL offers that top NL offers.
- Jeeves - Dec 31, 2010 at 11:39 PM
I posted on Nats Journal Lee's stats in 2009 before he was injured. They were better than Dunn's in every area, except home runs. ( and there it was very close) Of course, the defense is incomparable. And the strikeouts.So I'm disappointed the Nats didn't get Lee. But, assuming they get LaRoche, the team, barring injury, is far better than they were in 2010.
- Jeeves - Dec 31, 2010 at 11:48 PM
Mark, is there a way, I can log onto this site without going through, at least, three or four procedures. I select profile, post comment, post comment two more times, then enter my Code word, or whatever you call it. Other sites don't have this. I enjoy your column and will continue to read it–but posting is becoming too frustrating, not that anyone will be disappointed if I don't.
- rogieshan - Dec 31, 2010 at 11:59 PM
Perhaps LaRoche is not really in the equation. Rizzo could very welll be working on a different trade/free-agent signing scenario. Maybe Boras is eagerly trying to sell him Beltre as a potential gold-glove 1st baseman.
- Anonymous - Jan 1, 2011 at 12:03 AM
sign fielder next offseason and give him incentives for losing weight.perfect 4 hole hitter
- natsfan1a - Jan 1, 2011 at 12:08 AM
Jeeves, I can't speak for others, but I'd miss you if you weren't on here. Cheers and Happy New Year! :-)(I've kinda gotten used to the Captchas, fwiw.)
- Drew8 - Jan 1, 2011 at 12:17 AM
If they get LaRoche the defense is improved all over the field, from Werth in right to Bernadina in left, to the entire infield.LaRoche seems a fine complementary piece. The dynamic duo could hit 15 homers apiece if Espinosa's hand comes around. Add Harper in 2012 and the offense will mash.I can't hammer Rizzo over the glaring need for starters. It's clear he went to the wall for Greinke and the guy refused. I still think letting Peralta go was a mistake — though the fireballer in the Hammer deal sounds promising if he throws strikes.I hope we'll all celebrate more wins in 2011. Until then, be safe, everybody, and watch out for the knuckleheads. It's amateur night.
- natsfan1a - Jan 1, 2011 at 12:19 AM
Sorry for the OT post, but in other news, evidently there's a new Svrluga in town, and she tweets.http://twitter.com/MollySvrluga
- Sec 3, My Sofa - Jan 1, 2011 at 12:48 AM
Jeeves, either create a signin for yourself (you only need an email address, not a blog). In the alternative, just sign in as anonymous and include your handle in the post.Now, posting from a phone, like my droid, is more problematic, and I suspect it's the source of a lot of typos here, too.
- Jeeves - Jan 1, 2011 at 12:52 AM
natsfan1a, you are just a nice person, and that just throws me off. Where's Brue and swammi when I need them. O.K. So I don't need them. In fact…. Sorry it's New Year's Eve and I'm not going there. Happy New Years from P.E.I. Canada, natsfan. And the Nats are going to be a lot better this year–much better, barring injury.
- Anonymous - Jan 1, 2011 at 12:56 AM
Thanks Sec 3. I'm trying anonymous, see how it works.
- Anonymous - Jan 1, 2011 at 12:58 AM
Jeeves here, monopolizing the site. Works much faster, Sec 3.
- Sec 3, My Sofa - Jan 1, 2011 at 1:00 AM
Actually, 1a isn't just another nice person, but a multitalented fan with editorial superpowers.But don't let that throw you, Jeeves, and do keep the shiny side up.
- Anonymous8 - Jan 1, 2011 at 1:05 AM
rogieshan said… Perhaps LaRoche is not really in the equation. Rizzo could very welll be working on a different trade/free-agent signing scenario. Maybe Boras is eagerly trying to sell him Beltre as a potential gold-glove 1st baseman. I am glad you said it because that is option #3 and Beltre is better than LaRoche or D. Lee. Option #4 could be a Nick Johnson/Michael Morse platoon and that wouldn't surprise me but only makes sense if it truly was a LH/RH platoon and Nick enters the season as healthy as Nick enters a season.Other note to the other Blogs that had their "inside info" from a Nats official on the 1st base signing this week, —-you need a better source—.HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE IN NATSTOWN!!!!
- Sunshine_Bobby_Carpenter_Is_Too_Pessimistic_for_Me - Jan 1, 2011 at 1:18 AM
This is a blessing. God bless Wild Turkey, and Peter Angelos. Put me in the camp that believes Derrek Lee has begun his descent into mediocrity.Plus, we need LaRoche for his left-handed bat behind Zim. I know the guy only hits .150 until Memorial Day (when we could be 25 games out of first, depending on how fast the Phillies break), but he's consistent with a good glove.And to all those people wishing for a return of Nick "60-day disabled list" Johnson, I have a request: please pour yourself a stiff New Year's eye-opener and consume. Repeat. And Repeat. Then think about what you're saying. Friends don't let friends sign Nick Johnson.
- Anonymous - Jan 1, 2011 at 1:23 AM
sign fielder 2012 100 wins go all the way
- Sec 3, My Sofa - Jan 1, 2011 at 1:24 AM
HNY, Anony8 and all.
- Sunshine_Bobby_Carpenter_Is_Too_Pessimistic_For_Me - Jan 1, 2011 at 1:27 AM
Thanks, Section 3, and same to you, Mark and all the Nats Insiders Insiders. Stay safe, and healthy.
- natsfan1a - Jan 1, 2011 at 1:50 AM
Thanks, Jeeves and sec3. Jeeves, as an alternative to using "Anonymous," you could select "Name/URL" just above it. Type your name into the "Name" box that appears and leave the "URL" box empty. You'll still need to type the Captcha.Happy New Year to all!
- Andrew - Jan 1, 2011 at 1:59 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/nats-offer-laroche-two-year-deal.htmlThere is still a few more hours + New Years Day to be considered a deal for this week.
- Anonymous - Jan 1, 2011 at 2:08 AM
Hopefully another.smokescreen ; he be playing his cardsclose to the vest.
- SonnyG10 - Jan 1, 2011 at 2:38 AM
Happy New Year everyone. I have really enjoyed reading all the different viewpoints on this blog. I hope Mark Z keeps it going. Everyone stay safe!
- Section 109 - Jan 1, 2011 at 4:27 AM
This blog is great and the community is civil, well-informed, and funny most of the time. Thank you Mark and everyone else, and may you and the Nats have a great 2011.
- Doc - Jan 1, 2011 at 4:58 AM
This Lee/LaRoche waiting game has highlighted one central issue—Rizzo has a problem making a decision. Same thing with Dunn, he didn't pull the trigger when he needed to.
- Sunshine_Bobby_Carpenter_Is_Too_Pessimistic_for_Me - Jan 1, 2011 at 5:23 AM
Happy Freaking New Year, ALL!First post of 2011!
- JaneB - Jan 1, 2011 at 5:38 AM
What Sunshine said. Glad to know you all. Happy new year. As for " wait till next year!"… It's here. Pitchers and catchers closer than ever. So is a first base guy, even if his last name isn't Dunn. Xojb
- Sunderland - Jan 1, 2011 at 1:10 PM
G'morning,and HNY to each and all.rogieshan, a very interesting thought about Boras working the Nats to get them to sign Beltre. I had never considered that.Doc, I think in this case, it has nothing to do with Rizzo being slow to come to a decision. I think he made his decision many weeks ago. He wanted LaRoche for a two year deal. And he's likely to get what he wants. I think he played this exactly as he should have (just as he did with Strasburg and Harper and Solis and Cole and Werth). I give him props for this.It's not like he could have forced LaRoche to sign a two year offer 5 weeks ago.
- natsfan1a - Jan 1, 2011 at 1:38 PM
Good morning and back at ya, Sunderland.Hope that the New Year brings with it some successful Nats transactions.
- Anonymous - Jan 1, 2011 at 2:28 PM
Sunderland couldn't agree more. People think Rizzo can just do and sign who he wants for what he wants. Doesn't work that way. Even with suspect pitching this is a much better team minus Dunn and plus Werth and hopefully LaRoche.
- N. Cognito - Jan 1, 2011 at 3:21 PM
Doc said… "This Lee/LaRoche waiting game has highlighted one central issue—Rizzo has a problem making a decision. Same thing with Dunn, he didn't pull the trigger when he needed to."Rizzo didn't want Dunn for what he got from the Sox. He made the offer he was willing to make. Dunn wanted (and got) more than Rizzo was ever going to offer.Good or bad decision, I'm glad Rizzo isn't letting emotion affect his decisions.
- Tim - Jan 1, 2011 at 6:35 PM
Doc, Everything I have read indicates that the Dunn issue (back in July) was not Rizzo's call but the Lerners. Rizzo wanted to trde Dunn, Kasten wanted to resign him for 3/42. Basically the strategy would have been, give Dunn an ultimatum, sign for 3/42 or we are trading you to Chicago. The Learners said no to the trade and thus, there was no leverage over Dunn.
- Anonymous - Jan 1, 2011 at 8:34 PM
Tim, sounds like you have been reading Boswell. I'd say take whatever you read from him with a grain of salt. His story on the Dunn deal has been changing as time goes by. First it was that Dunn would surely have signed for three years back in July, but Rizzo never offered. Then it changed to Kasten could have signed Dunn, but Rizzo wanted to trade him. Then it changed to this sign-or-we'll-trade-you ultimatum. So what's next? Just stay tuned for Boswell's next chat, and he'll have another spin on it. The thing is, if you're reporting facts they generally stay the same over time. Boswell's not reporting facts. He may well be making stuff up.
- N. Cognito - Jan 1, 2011 at 9:11 PM
Boswell and facts are two mutually exclusive concepts.His days as a decent sports writer are long behind him.
- BinM - Jan 2, 2011 at 6:15 PM
@N.Cognito: Where I see the "problem", is that Rizzo is unwilling to go much above what he invisions as "fair value" for a contract length; Dunn @10M/year = great value, @36M/3years = fair value, @56M/4years = negative value. Same kind of story is playing out with LaRoche; Rizzo wants him for 2 years, and seems willing to pay around $6-8M/year, but LaRoche (& his agent) are looking for 3 years at $7-8M+. We'll see how it plays out…BTW, I wouldn't be suprised to see D. Lee struggle in the AL this year.
- N. Cognito - Jan 3, 2011 at 3:41 AM
It's okay to overspend for the bona fide star players. If you overspend for the rest (incl Dunn), you're digging yourself a financial hole.
- Feel Wood - Jan 3, 2011 at 1:30 PM
"Fair value" for Dunn as an NL player would have been two years. Rizzo showed that he was willing to go above fair value by offering him three years.


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Inertia Mixer in CD Microfluidics
G. KylbergGyros AB is developing biomedical laboratories in CD-discs, Gyrolab®. In a lot of applications mixers are needed and for some special applications liquid volumes of a few microlitres are to be handled.
The mixing of a few microlitres liquids was studied numerically with FEMLAB and experimentally with colored and uncolored water. Thanks to this combination, the main mixing process was identified and verified. The mixers consist of hollow volumes in the disc with shapes of circular cylinders. The mixing within the cylinders is driven by the rotational inertia of the liquids in combination with centrifugal forces from the rotation of the liquids within the cylinders.


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