text:
DIFFERENT LOCATIONS -- Dear Sir or Dear Madam,
I want to inform you about a terrible experience I've just had with Tech Support Ph# 1800 474-6836 in the Control Panel (System icon) information based in my current Hewlett Packard desktop Computer.
First of all I have been a Hewlett Packard buyer for the past (3) computers, buying one every 6 to 8 years and had plan to continue doing so. As I have purchased my first model in the year 1994 which I don't have the information on hand but the last (2) the model HP Pavilion 6645C SYS # D9948A SER # KR01326688 purchased in late 2000 and my current HP model # M9340F SER # CNX822119T Prod # KQ497AA-ABA purchased in 2008, HP Photosmart C4480 and previous Printers, Router and Ink Cartridges! (My info's in your base)
Last Thursday Jan 2, I was having computer problems pretty sure it was a Virus and I had attempted earlier for Techies Tech support to fix it first for a (1) time fixing for $59.95. They debited my credit card and proceeded by taking my Computer over by remote for 3 or 4 separate attempts spending much time on it from grade (1) through (3) in experience. I am Computer savvy myself and told them basically what I had tried everything from Safe Mode procedure elimination through Putting my Computer back in an earlier time through Cache, Cookies through downloading different Virus Tryout Programs. They could not eliminate what I believe is a Virus on my Computer & after the fourth try, they proceeded to credit back my card and advised me to contact the Manufacturer of my Computer thinking maybe they might know because of being the maker of it. I did not want to do a total System Recovery which I have done so in the past more than once when applicable because usually even though you backup your files usually you end up losing something you wish you had back.
So Last Thursday Jan 2, I called the HP above phone number and talked to a (Steven) I told him the problems that I was having and that I had Techies Tech support work on it and that they had problems and could not fix it. He just about guaranteed me that they could fix it and agreed for a onetime fee of $59.95.
Sounding extremely confident that the Hp Tech Support system could do so. He said he had heard of this problem and they fix them regularly. He just reiterated and continued to repeat again and again verbally that they can fix this. I proceeded to give him my card number and he told me to stay on the line as he hooked me up to a Tech specialist name (Tim). Tim proceeded to spin about 45 minutes to an hour trying to take my computer over by remote. I told him the Techies Tech support remote log in remote procedure was (logmein.com) but he said their software is different and continued to be unsuccessful. He told me he would have to call me the following morning because he couldn't figure out how to take it by remote; he said the next grade of Tech Support would be able to do it. I wanted them to continue because it says there in the Control Panel Icon information Open for 24/7 & 7 days a week. I said fine call me at 8:00 am the next morning Friday. The next morning a Tech support name (Jeff) called. I told Jeff basically the same thing I had told Tim and earlier of course told Techies Tech what I had tried. Jeff told me he did not see what else could be done. And he proceeded to try to hook up remotely trying his software but failed to connect. He then decided to put the Computer back in time but I told him that I had done this at least a half a dozen times much earlier through my learned knowledge & experience. After he coached me to do this and it finished; there was no progress of fixation at all. As he had left in the middle of the procedure and he did not return the call. As I waited for Jeff to call back, I decided to call Billing or Customer service and Talked to someone name (Michael Alba). I told him who I was and what had been done so far and told him I thought I would ask for a refund because it appeared nothing was going to be done.
Mr. Alba ID MA100569 told me he could not give me a refund because that they had spent a considerable amount of time with me on my computer. I was absolutely outraged at how he came to that conclusion as neither Tim or Jeff hadn't not only fixed my computer; they never even taken my computer over remotely and made an attempt at fixing it in the either case!!!
We argued back and forth and came to an agreement to let his highest grade Tech Support he said which I believe is grade (3) call me to give it one last try and call me that afternoon and maybe we could work something out he said if they were unsuccessful. I said fine.
An (Alex) called me later that afternoon. He was no better than the other 2 as he tried to connect remotely but could not do so. I explained to Jeff earlier the many things that I I had attempted earlier in fixing it and he told me "He did not see what else could be done"!
Alex returned me to billing or Customer service and a person by the name of (Damien) answered with authority. He proceeded to tell me the same that he could not give me a refund because of the (3) separate tech guys that spent time on the phone. All they did was ask questions, such as what was wrong with my Computer and attempt to connect by remote going through different procedures unsuccessfully and never did! I believe the Virus won out and I have to do a System Recovery with Disks.
I checked my Bank statements immediately and it looks like they charged me twice on (2) separate charges which is even more outrageous!!!
I called my bank and disputed the charges and now we will see what the overall outcome will be. I was planning on buying another HP Desktop in 2014
I have never experienced such outrageousness by a major Computer operation in my lifetime!
And If I don't hear back from your office about your policies and your procedures changing from instances like this, because if you Google "HP complaints" and see similarities like my story and your Customer relations on Printers/PC's/ laptops etc. There's a good chance you won't see me buying another HP product again! And of course I will alert Family and Friends, Etc.
After reading so many complaints over issues with HP service, I wanted to add some information that people may find helpful when calling HP support.
Canada's support, on the other hand, is in CANADA. Canadians speak English every bit as well as you do. And they have those cute accents as well! When you call through for support, keep saying "agent" to the automated system, then ask to be transferred to Canadian support. Be patient. It may take 4 or 5 transfers. Keep asking for Canadian support. Once you get to Canada, they can assist you in troubleshooting, and can set up many types of repair or parts dispatch. The systems are different, so they can't do everything the US team can, but at least they can explain it in a way that makes sense to both of you.
Keep in mind, though, you should use this as a last resort. If everyone who calls demands someone in Canada, HP will change the system so that it's no longer possible to get there. Don't call and demand Canada to order a set of recovery disks - the people in India can handle that just fine. But if it's complicated troubleshooting you need, it might be worthwhile to try it.
Before you ask, NO, there is no direct number to Canada. You have to call the US line and ask for Canada. No other way around it... unless you can call from a Canadian-registered phone, with a Canadian area code (Skype?).
They have no control over it. If you want to fight for change, the tech is the wrong person to voice your opinion to.
Go to this website:
and send a message to the corporate team. They have the power to make the changes. If you tell them you refuse to buy an HP product until they provide support in the US (or Canada, or another English-first-language country), eventually, they'll have to start listening. One or two won't make a difference. Thousands will. It's all about the bottom line. Right now they save immense amounts of money by having support in India. If they start to lose an equal amount of money in lost customers, they'll be forced to reconsider that business decision.
Telling the agent what kind of support you would get if you called another company also won't help. First, the information you are providing is probably untrue. No one is going to come to your house and do onsite repair for a $50 printer, I don't care who you bought it from. Second, HP doesn't base their support on what others provide. Their support is based on what is economically feasible to provide for the cost of the product that you own.
I know what you're thinking. You weren't mad until you called.
I agree, it's frustrating. Keep in mind, though, these techs have heard it all. Legal threats, death threats, threats on their job etc. They have built up a wall against anger, and when you call and take out your frustration on them, they close up. They'll get defensive. Yelling at the tech, no matter how much better it makes you feel, will NOT get your issue resolved! Yes, the tech may be stupid and incompetent. But telling them that will not make them want to help you! Save the frustration for when you get off the phone.
All big companies have a lot of red tape. There are always stupid, pointless hoops to jump through. The techs are there to help you through them.
No one said the system was great.
But if you are aggressive and angry with the techs, they'll be less likely to give you the information you need. They won't feel like helping you, and you'll get even worse support. This goes for Case Managers as well - maybe even more so!
So the big question here is... what DOES work?
When you call, be as genuinely nice as you possibly can.
A customer once called HP support. When asked "How can I help you?" He said "I'd like to speak to a representative from HP's award winning 24/7 technical support, please!" and he said it with a smile in his voice.
His issue was minor. It was out of scope. He was out of warranty. He wasn't covered.
He got free help anyway.
It won't always work, but it's a lot more likely to get you some decent assistance than "Get me a d*mn supervisor!"
HP phone support helps with *problems* with the computer. They are not a basics computer class. Don't call them to ask them how to burn a DVD, they don't help with that. Take a beginner computer class or ask a friend for help, if you don't know what you are doing. When you buy a car, it's expected that you already know how to drive, or will go learn. The car manufacturer won't provide lessons on that - and neither do computer manufacturers.
Don't call with a heightened sense of entitlement. You think you should get a replacement. The warranty says otherwise. In this battle, the warranty wins. If it's a repair warranty, you are going to get a repair.
Read it and find out what you are entitled to, and what you are not. That way, you know what to expect, and you know if you are not getting what you are entitled to. If your warranty says one thing and the tech won't provide it, by all means, ask for a supervisor. But HP didn't become #1 in the industry by handing out new computers like candy.
On the "being proactive" topic - don't buy your system at Wal-Mart! Here's the inside scoop:
Walmart dictates the price of the PC to the manufacturer. They are the ONLY retailer with the power to do this. Their price is significantly less than what other companies (Future Shop, Staples, RadioShack etc) pay. The manufacturers (HP and Compaq included) build PC's just for Walmart. Those computer have similar model numbers to other retail PCs. But don't be fooled - they are not the same. WalMart PC's are built with low quality, budget parts. The parts are often refurbished. They are not the high quality PCs you would expect from HP... they might as well be Acers. You get what you pay for.
That's my 3 cents. Sorry if some of it came across with some animosity, it was not meant that way. These are real suggestions that in my experience, actually work.
If someone out there can get better support with any of these suggestions, or avoid getting really BAD support, it was well worth it.
This is my e-mail I'm about to send to the Office of the President. (assuming it ever gets there since they blocked me from actually speaking to his office when I called).
It's really a shame that HP has turned into this type of company.
This e-mail is intended for the President - Paul Tsaparis
I have been buying HP products for years now & I'm SHOCKED as to how unorganized HP has become. I'm also shocked as to how much time I've had to waste every single time I call HP & how HP seems to like wasting customers' time by forcing them to provide serial numbers & model numbers each time they call. If it was the first time I could see the logic in this, but it's not, it's EACH TIME & the info is ALREADY in your system linked to my name & phone number.
Today I've wasted almost an hour of my time while I could have been working to build my company.
First I called customer service. When I had to jump through hoops again, I asked to speak to a manager. I was told I wouldn't be allowed if I didn't go get my heavy laptop & read off all the numbers again.
Then after hanging up I called Case Management & spoke to Trish who also refused to let me speak to a manager if I didn't waste my precious time by leaving my office to go all the way upstairs & get all this information that is ALREADY in your system. She gave me the 650-857-1501 number to supposedly speak to you, but of course that number got me nowhere.
Then I spoke to Sinchi who took down my previous case management number & put me on hold. The next thing I know, I get a Pam picking up the phone who had no clue what was going on & had no idea who was supposed to be handling me. AGAIN she asked me to repeat EVERYTHING. The pattern here is that HP is totally disorganized & doesn't respect a customer's time.
She transfers me to try & get Sinchi back & if memory serves me (who can remember what's going on when they speak to sooo many different people in a span of 20 minutes), Tina picked up the phone & then hung up on me.
Finally I called the Houston office where I was told I would not be allowed to be transferred to your office because I'm Canadian, that only case management handles Canadian issues. This is how Canadians are mistreated. One rule for Americans, another for Canadians & you are Canadian no less.
When I had a problem with customer service with Sony Canada, Sony US had NO problem speaking to me & getting the problem resolved within the hour.
Back to what happened to me...
At least the person I spoke to was kind enough to give me this e-mail address. We'll see if it actually leads to the Executive Offices & I speak to someone OTHER than case management who has failed to help me all because HP refuses to address my needs if I take a stand & refuse to waste unnecessary time by providing the same information that is already in your computer system.
I will be blogging about this entire experience because I feel other people who may consider becoming an HP customer should know that they will have their time wasted because HP has control issues & very disorganized. I'm sure your shareholders would also like to know this information.
Note: just from my quick search online, I can see that I'm not the only one who has had terrible problems with HP. There are TONS of other customers online who have been mistreated by HP.
All this because I called to get a UPS box sent to me so I could once again send back my laptop to get it fixed since now the mouse isn't working. I only purchased this laptop in August of 2009, have used it a total of maybe 10-15 times, & I've had nothing but problems with it since I brought it home.
ETA: Link included at the end of this review
I just replaced my 11 year old Compaq Presario with a brand new Compaq Presario. I've had good luck with these girls, so I'm sticking with what works.
For a month, I have enjoyed the computer, with its pre-installed Windows 7 operating system. Christmas night, I shut it down, and the next day, I restarted it and couldn't get online. I am not computer stupid, and Win 7 puts everything up front for easy access, but I couldn't figure out the problem. I scheduled a visit from Time Warner, my carrier, and they came out the next morning. The young man worked on it for three hours to no avail. Strangely enough, he could get online with my modem with his computer (XP operating system), but not mine. I could also get on with my laptop, Vista system, but not my new one. His conclusion: it's my new computer.
I called HP. For three hours I was on the phone with, of course, an Indian man with a thick accent, but he only had to repeat himself for me a few times and he was really smart and patient. Together, we ran down every test, every scrap of anything he could think of to make sure my computer was working. Everything checked. Everything worked. His conclusion: it's Time Warner.
The computer was giving me a 651 error and telling me it wasn't recognizing my IP. The HP tech told me to have Time Warner reconfigure my modem.
I called TWC. They told me they didn't need to because it was my computer's fault and to call HP. I was so tired and frustrated I actually started to cry.
Eleven hours I spent calling back and forth, and to his credit, the tech from HP called me the next day to ask me to completely reinstall Win 7. I refused because I have three expensive programs that would have been wiped if I had done this, programs I couldn't put back on without buying an external hard drive.
I Googled the errors and found a lot of people having the same issues. HP and TWC were both right. It wasn't HP, it wasn't TWC. It's Win 7. I figured I would give Microsoft a call and they could help me.
What was irritating is that Microsoft will help you, if you have bought the Win 7 upgrade, but there is no free service for those of us who bought it pre-installed. They would have charged me $59 to answer a question, and I couldn't get to a phone number on their site unless I agreed to pay the $59. That sucks, Microsoft.
If you go to their site, there is a place to put a product key in for free service. There is a product key on my computer for my operating system, but the site wouldn't recognize it. I paid for the program with my computer, one month old, so I should get free service. With all of the bugs in Win 7, they should be bending over backwards to help people. I tried Googling a phone number and nothing would take me directly to Microsoft's help desk without cost to me.
Anyway, I went on Microsoft's forums. The answer was in the conversations people were having with one another, and as is, there are about four ways to fix my problem. You've got to love computer geeks. I fixed it.
Yesterday, I was in Kohl's having at some shopping, and the tech from HP called me again to inquire about my problem and I told him how I fixed it. He wrote everything down and his supervisor even got on the phone with me. I know people crab about HP service, but man, I got some seriously good service from these people.
Microsoft, I love your Win 7, but you need to accommodate your customers more broadly than you do. As is, I was going to update my Vista laptop by buying the Win 7, but I think I will keep my money.
I included all three of the companies I dealt within my title so that this could be searched for this particular problem and perhaps the person helped by what I found. My complaint, however, has to be focused on Microsoft.
The link that helped me: Pay attention to Krull Kitty and Kinetic Artist's posts, the step by step . Hers is the one that helped me! You will notice, however, there are more ways to fix my problem.
Purchased in April 2007 (1 year ago) in Europe.
problem_description : The black ink cartridge ran out of ink very prematurely. I printed 2 small photos and 85 pages and it ran out in less than a week of purchasing the printer. If I had known it would use this much ink, I would have bought another printer. I would like a couple of new cartridges. Thank you. By the way, I tried to register through your software and had trouble. It would not connect to your server. I will try again now though.
HP's response:
Thank you for contacting HP Total Care.
This is Norah from HP All-in-One Technical Support Team and I am
replying in regard to your query relating to HP Photosmart C3180
I gather from your email that our All-in-One ran out of ink very
I truly regret for the inconvenience caused.
The cartridge is running out prematurely because the HP Photosmart C3180
All-in-One ink cartridge capacity is ink only of 5ml.
I request you to buy a new cartridge.
From the link below you can find the HP local support center:
Thank you for using HP Total Care and giving us an opportunity to serve
you. Its been pleasure assisting you today.
HP Total care
My response:
I just bought a new cartridge; it cost the equivalent of $24! With an anticipated capacity of 210 pages as is stated on HP's website, that is over 12 cents per page and that is just for plain black and white print outs. That is very expensive! Are you saying that only the cartridge that came with the printer has a capacity of 5ml or that all model #336 cartridges have a capacity of 5ml?
HP's response:
Thank you for writing back.
Firstly, I regret for the delay in replying to your mail. Due to some
technical difficulties that have slowed down our response time
considerably. Most of the time we respond to emails within an hour or
less, depending on the complexity of the problem. We are sorry about any
inconvenience caused by this delay.
I really appreciate your efforts in resolving the issue.
However, the cartridge 336 model consists of 5 ml of ink volume and
capacity of 210 pages. The capacity of the pages are different If we
select the printing mode and quality mode. In case of fast draft mode the
output will be more pages. If the print quality is set to best mode then
pages will be less. All the HP 336 cartridges are similar to 5 ml.
If you have further questions, Please write to back to me with results
and I would be happy to assist you.
I look forward to assist you. Have a Nice time!!
HP Total Care
My response:
Hi, I'm using the printer sparingly no thanks to your outrageously highly
priced low ink capacity of 5ml cartridges and the printer already says
that the ink is halfway. This is on the 'fast draft' setting by the way.
Until now, I have always had good experience with your printers in terms of
quality and longevity of the cartridges. Now, I spent the equivalent of
$24 for a new cartridge and looked up how long it will last on HP's website:
210 pages. This means that it'll cost me 12cents per page- outrageously
expensive! How does your company expect to fight against the secondary
market of ink refills? You shouldn't practically force good, brand
loyal customers like me to look into alternatives.
HP's response:
Thank you for writing back.
From your mail I understand that you are experiencing with the ink
related issue.
Sir, this issue could occur when the dry ink time is
To correct this problem, increase the ink drying time in the print
In the software program being printed from, click File and then click
Select the option to open the print properties (usually Properties or
Click the Features tab.
Click Advanced features.
Use the Drying Time slider to increase the amount of ink drying time,
then click OK. This will slow print speed.
NOTE: Clicking the link may give an error indicating it is invalid. If
this occurs, copy the portion of the address
on the remaining line(s) and paste it at the end of the
address showing in your browser until the complete address is displayed
in the Address box.
This is usually a paper related problem. Some papers do not accept ink
as well as others. This is especially true of transparency and some of
the less expensive photo papers. Perform the following steps to
determine or correct the problem:
1.Verify that the paper is an Inkjet rated paper. Paper designed for
laser printers and copiers can have a coating on them that does not
allow the ink to be absorbed correctly. Some store branded photo papers
may also not allow the ink to dry properly. Try printing on some
different paper from a different manufacturer.
2.Paper varies in weight. The weight of the paper will be marked on the
packaging. Heavier papers tend to work better than lighter papers.
Printing on plain paper that is 70 g/m2 (20 pounds) or less in Best mode
may put more ink on the page than the paper can absorb easily. Try
printing with a heavier paper or print in Normal mode.
3.Try changing the Paper Type setting to Plain/Inkjet and setting the
Print Quality setting to Normal, and then print again. If the ink still
will not dry, the paper is the problem.
4.Try a paper from a different manufacturer and see if different results
can be obtained.
Now check the functionality
If you have further questions, Please write to back to me with results
and I would be happy to assist you.
I look forward to assist you. Have a Nice time!!
HP Total Care
1 year later:
HP's tips have been helpful BUT I still use this printer sparingly and it hasn't ceased to disappoint me in how much ink it eats just for regular black and white printouts! Buyer beware! HP used to have all of my respect but it's lost a lot w/ its price gouging on ink.
If you can get this printer cheap and can get cheap,generic ink cartridges, then I do recommend it to you. The scanning/copying options do make it worth it. Plus, there are memory card slots.
Mr. Hurd,
My reason in writing you this letter is out of much disappointment and, admittedly, outrage. I have never been treated as badly nor received such lack of help as I did by your "customer service" staff, regarding my Officejet 6210 All-In-One printer/copier/fax/scanner, etc.
I went through your website's technical support, which is free, I might note. But, to my great amazement, a technical company,such as your's, doesn't offer any help with Apple computers.
I, finally, called the company and was transferred to customomer service who asked for my credit card number. When I asked what for, I was told that due to the end of my warranty, I would have to pay a thirty dollar fee, in order to speak with someone.
Just the fact that you offer FREE tech support online for PC users, but not for Apple users, is unfair and excriminatory, in its own right.
If you are going to offer free online support, you should make it available to everyone, not just PC users. I find it extremely maddening that I could get the help I need in just a few
minutes, online, for FREE if I used a PC. But, because I use an Apple, I have to be punished and pay $30. Would you find that fair if it was your own issue, Mr. Hurd? I hardly believe that you would happily pay for a service that is free to others.
Furthermore, Mr. Hurd, if your company sells Apple-compatible products, you should also offer assistance to those people. We are paying customers too, sir. That fact should not be overlooked. Why is it, sir, that you don't offer online assistance for Mac users?
Also, you should have better customer service training available to your staff, and especially to their supervisors.
As I said, I truly and honestly have never spoken to such rude, inattentive, and unhelpful customer service representatives before.
Your company is not a small one Mr. Hurd. Being that you are
such a large, renown company, I expected top level customer service, as I would get from any of the billion dollar companies out there.
I assure you, I have never worked for any company, big or small, or shopped with a company, that didn't
take it VERY SERIOUSLY.
The first rule in customer service is that the words "no" and "cannot" are to be deleted from your vocabulary. Not under any circumstances, do not say those words - ever!!
I am UNHAPPY to say that between the 6 different customer service agents I was transferred between, and have spoken with for over a two and a half hours, your "customer service" staff AND supervisors, ONLY had those words to say to me. Over and over.
I am sure, Mr. Hurd, that you did not become president of such a giant company by telling people that you cannot help them, for everything they say.
No, less, your staff hardly listened to me because they were too busy insisting that they "couldn't help me or do anything for me". I couldn't get a word in edgewise, and I told them so, which I thought would resolve that particular issue. Which, it did not.
I also thought you might like to know that out of the six people who spoke with me two of them actually had the nerve to hang up on me, while another simply put me on hold and never returned. Two out of the three people I just mentioned, were "supervisors".
Apparently, neither the staff, nor the supervisors know your name or their own. I find it very offensive that when I asked to speak with the supervisor's higher up, the only response was that HE WAS the highest management available.
Mr. Hurd, I find it hard; no, I find it impossible to believe that in such a large company with so many employees working there, that the customer service supervisor (not even manager) is the highest level of management available to speak with.
When asked to be transferred to your extension, the only
response I got was that they cannot and they don't even know your name.
I, find it hard to believe that your own employees do not even know their employers name. I've known EVERY president for EVERY company I've ever worked for; even the presidents of the ice cream shop I worked for, at the age of 15!
Mr. Hurd would you return to an ice cream shop where the staff had treated you rudely and had given you an attitude? I certainly would never return to that shop, even though its only a $4 scoop of ice cream.
I'll tell you another thing, there is no lack of ice cream shops, nor technological companies that sell printers. I could easily go to another brand, as there are many, many others, to buy my printer.
In fact, I'm so offended at the lack of help I received and the rude way I was treated, that I am going to return my HP printer; as Costco takes anything back, anytime, and I'm going to exchange it for a different brand.
To make it all the more clear how uhappy I am at the kind of treatment I received from your staff, I have asked my father not to order the 28 new printers he is about to buy, for his company, from HP.
So, Mr. Hurd, does it seem worth it to you to rudely insist on not being able to wave the $30 dollar tech support fee, in exchange for the thousands of dollars and 4 loyal customers you have now lost?
I find it hard to believe that if the situation was posed to you, $30, compared to customer loyalty and thousands of dollars, that you would have hung up on me. Twice. I most certainly do not believe that you were offerred the position of president by making those types of foolish decisions.
I also want to let you know that two of the agents I spoke to, would not let me speak to a supervisor. Only after I insisted for at least 30 minutes, did the employee go talk to his supervisor, who "did not have time" to speak with me,
no matter how many times I insisted. That, most certainly, does
not speak much about your company. Even more adamantly, now, do I not believe that HE was the highest level of management available to resolve my issue. Not with the number of employees I can imagine you employ.
Whether you agree with my position on the fee or not, should absolutely not
deter you from understanding my point of view regarding your employees, and the level of customer service that your company provides.
I would rather pay an extra $100 dollars for the SAME EXACT product
from a different brand, than pay $30 to speak with someone on the phone at your offensive company!
Thank you for your time, Mr. Hurd.
Email sent to HP:
As a result of an inquiry to the BBB Complaint ID: 16058061, I am still being harassed by your case managers. Please listen to the recorded calls for Dean 6:50 PM 1/19/2011 and Morris 2:18 PM 1/25/2011. If I am called on my cellular phone and incur charges for listening to your case managers harass me and cause me undue stress, I will be forced to seek help from someone to stop HP representatives from harassing me. I am at my wits end and do not know what to do. I asked Morris if he could research my problem and call me back and he said no. He forced me to stop working for 30 minutes so that I could sit on hold and listen to him type on a computer. There was no need for me to be on the phone. Your case managers did not respect me and treated my problems like garbage. What has to be done for HP executives to stop this unlawful treatment of customers with warranties to fix your G series laptops with hard drives that fail numerous times?!
This is the first submission to the Chamber of Commerce, Attorney General and BBB for your area:
Hewlett Packard
3000 Hanover St MS1247
Palo Alto, CA 94304-1112
Contact: Apotheker, Leo
Phone: (650) 857-1501
Edwards, Stacy
557 Sabal Lake Dr #203
Longwood, FL 32779
(330) 780-3530
We are currently waiting for the company to respond to your complaint.
Complaint ID: 16058061
Complaint Classification:
Complaint Description - Posted 1/19/2011 10:59:14 AM
I purchased the HPG60-441US in 10/2009 from Staples in Casselberry, FL. HP had a promotion with Staples that when Windows 7 software became available, it would be sent to upgrade Vista systems for free. I contacted HP and was guaranteed that the system has the capability to be upgraded or Staples would not be able to offer the promotion. I purchased the computer and received the Windows 7 upgrade within 3 months of it being released. In August 2010, my computer began having diagnostic issues. I contacted HP and the technicians, after hours of troubleshooting, informed me that Windows 7 caused some diagnostic issues with the computer and I had to return the computer to HP to be repaired. HP returned my computer and said that it was good as new. Again, I attempted to add Windows 7 and could not. It caused diagnostic issues, again. I contacted HP, again, and was informed that since I had the computer for over a year, I could not have it replaced. I was livid. I told the representative that I have the same issue that I had when the computer was not one year old. HP was supposed to fix it and it did not. She promised to have a case manager view my issue but she did not know if my computer would qualify for replacement. I am upset that a company as large as HP would not recognize a computer that is a lemon and would force customers to keep a computer with an operating system that had to be reformulated because of issues (Vista). I feel HP has swindled me into purchasing a lemon.
Complaint Summary
I purchased a computer from HP that has a Vista operating system. The computer had to be returned to HP for repair. Now, the same issue has arisen.
Resolution Sought
I would like the computer replaced with another computer with the same quality with Windows 7. This computer does not have the capability to handle the Windows 7 upgrade. When I purchased the computer, I was guaranteed that it was compatible to be upgraded via HP and Staples. Each time I attempt to add Windows 7, within a few months, I have diagnostic issues. HP told me yesterday that I have had the computer for over a year and ignored that the problem happened before I had it for a year.
Additional Information
Date Problem First Occurred:
Product or Service: HPG60-441US with Vista operating system.
Model Name or Number: HP G60-441US
Date Purchased: 10/1/2009
Order Number:
Amount In Dispute: $500.00
PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA -- I am extremely disappointed with HP and its practices when a customer needs service / replacement with defective devices. I spend countless hours / almost 30 days with your outsource company dealing with un trained, emotionless agents that just make my situation worse, when I finally reached a case manager it was no better as he tried to replacement a lesser value monitor than what I originally purchased.
I was never told until just recently that HP doesn't repair defective devices. . So instead I received a used and out of warranty monitor that was also defective. I have emails and voice mails from my case manager indicating that if I sent back the 2509 monitor, he would ship out the 3rd 2558 monitor, then two days later he changed his mind..
Purchased brand new Desktop & Monitor 2/17/2010.
Discovered monitor was defective, reported it and it took HP over 30 days to finally send out a replacement. I was told my monitor would be repaired instead,
Replacement that was sent was also defective and it was used and out of warranty. when I complained, I was sent a lesser value monitor without all of the features that I had purchased. I was then told my model is not made any longer, I was also told that HP could only send a refurbished unit. I was told they would send out another monitor like mine IF I returned the lesser value model, I said no problem, then HP changed their minds and demanded both monitors. I stated that I could not be without any monitor since when I sent my new monitor it took over 2 weeks to receive.
HP replaced my w2558hc monitor with a lesser value monitor 2509 that didn't have the features that I paid for.
I was originally told to send my monitor and that it would be repaired however I learned recently HP doesn't repair monitors. I was sent a used and out of warranty monitor. I have asked HP numerous times that they dropped the ball and I need the same model shipped to be and insure that its inspected and comes with a 1 yr warranty. I also offered to have an HP tech come to my house with a working unit and in return I will give to him the 2509 monitor along with the defective 2558hc.
All of my requests have been refused and HP demand both monitors be shipped back before they send out the true replacement Ms Carlisle threatened to send this matter to collections to get their monitor back. They refuse to OVERNIGHT the next replacement I was with no monitor for over two weeks in March when I sent out my brand new monitor to them (w2558hc). I never refused to send back the other 2509 monitor however HP still refuses to send another replacement until both monitors are returned. Carlisle keeps reciting that HP has met its obligations and have acted in good faith throughout the process, which couldn't be far from the reach truth. She also threatened me with sending this matter to collections as I was holding their 2509 monitor "HOSTAGE".
Here is what I'm asking for HP to do:
Insure to me that the replacement has been fully inspected.
Guarantee one year warranty. Replace a missing remote control that was inside my original monitor w2558hc and expedite shipping and stop threatening me and instead make right of their wrongs towards me. more than 3 months have gone by and still no resolution only on HP's terms. I have lost trust and concerned the next replacement will be defective and then they will do nothing after that.
HP said NO, I suggested they send out an HP tech with a unit that's been verified trouble free and in return I will give both monitors to him, I was denied again. HP isn't willing to accommodate any of my above requests.
I am hoping someone will take out the time and read this complaint but even more so, resolve this issue once and for all. This complaint has been forwarded to the BBB, FTC and the Attorney General's office and now I'm consulting with legal counsel for further recourse if this matter is not resolved.
Ms Carlisle (Consumer Relations) is the contact person for this case 650.857.1501
Does anyone have the resource or names of high executives within the HP Organization. Having a case manager and dealing customer relations is completely a waste of time, they only recite HP POLICY, and NO we can't to anything you ask of them!`
LAKE ZURICH, ILLINOIS -- This is a letter sent to HP concerning my complaint. Since that time I have been assigned to another Case Manager that refuses to make contact. I have sent numerous emails to the CEO Mr. Hurd and always promised a contact but still no responses. Appears HP just wants to string you along until total frustration set in and you quit. I would not recommend any HP products based on my ongoing customer service problems.
18 December 2009
Hewlett-Packard Company
3000 Hanover Street
Palo Alto, CA 94304-1185 USA
Corporate Complaint Department
An HP Mini 110 was purchased from Best Buy 14 October 2009. It stopped working within 4 days. Returned to Best Buy and they confirmed it was non-functioning. They did not have a replacement and suggested contacting HP directly. This time frame was when HP was changing over from XP models to Windows 7 and new models and Best Buy did not have any inventory for either model.
I discussed the situation with a Case Manager "J" and advised that I was departing to Asia for business and needed the Mini replacement before 9 November. Due to the model change over she could not get and guarantee that a replacement would arrive in time.
Case manager "J" and I discussed that my only option to get a working Mini before departing was to return to Best Buy, returning the non functioning unit and get and pay for an upgraded model and that she would send a replacement upon my return to the USA after December 1st.
I sent an email to Case manager December 1st advising my return and available to discuss replacement. I did not get a response so called the Case management line December 4th and was advised that Case manager "J" was no longer on this case as more than 30 days had elapsed and I would need to work with Case Manager "M". He gave me a new Case number and claimed he would look into my complaint. I did not get a reply so called again December 11th for Mike. At that time he advised that no replacement would be available, as policy had changed since my initial contact with Case manager "J".
I alluded to the email from Case manager "J" promising a replacement but Mike made all kinds of excuses as to why it could not be done. Conversation ended with his disconnect.
I expect HP to honor its commitment for the replacement documented in the email from "J". I would not have paid for the second model from Best Buy if I thought HP would renege on its replacement offer. Rather I would have taken a refund and looked for a different manufacturer to meet my time deadline.
I currently own four HP printers and a fax machine and have purchased HP replacements when needed. HP has always responded with positive results when problems required a replacement, until this instance.
I am requesting a corporate review of my complaint and compliance to the commitment made by Case Manager "J". Should a decision be made not to honor her commitment than I request an immediate refund and I will return to HP the Mini in my possession and allow me to purchase another more functioning brand.
I decided to order a DV7 3020ea laptop from the HP website after having had a bad experience with a mainstream electronics retailer where I ended up getting a refund. I thought I would order directly from HP and maybe I would receive the best service, how wrong I was. Anyway I ordered the laptop on the 1st Nov, it wasn't in stock but on website it stated usually dispatched within 2 weeks. Got an email confirming the order, then got another email a few days later on the 4th Nov stating that the laptop should be in stock by the 5th and normally is dispatched within a couple of days. On the 6th I received another email informing me that the logistics dept were not able to get this item in stock due to complications and that they would have a better picture of when it will be in stock on the 10th. Got another email on the 9th stating that it will not be stock on the 10th and estimated date now is the 20th but I would be informed if in stock earlier. I happened to go onto their website the next day and saw that it was in stock, called them and they said it had come into stock that Tuesday morning and that it will be shipped out the same day. Received the laptop on Wednesday the 11th which was good. I opened the box took the laptop out, something didn't look right, the protective covering on the lid had loads of bubbles in plus there were dirt marks on the lid, it has the moonlight finish so these marks were very noticeable. Opened the lid some keys had a small amount of dirt on them, and screen looked OK however I hadn't switched it on yet. Took the battery out and lifted the laptop over to put the battery in. There were 3 deep scratches on the underside, I put the battery in and switched it on, the initial startup screen was black and that's when I noticed a dead pixel near the middle of the screen. Needless to say I wasn't happy, after paying £1000 for the laptop the condition was totally unacceptable. Called HP straight away who gave me a ref number and post sales said that they would contact logistics to arrange for a new laptop to be sent out and this one to be picked up, this would happen within "48 hours" of that call. I said OK packed up the laptop and resealed the box and package. The next day Thursady the courier came to pick it up, but no one from HP called me to let me know also there wasn't a replacement laptop. Anyhow I let them take it and I phoned HP who said that the girl that was dealing with it was on lunch and she will call me back, she didn't. She emailed me later that day telling me that she had already informed me that it would take 48 "working hours"
for logistics to contact her back, (from 48 hours to 48 working hours) my concern was that judging by their performance so far the laptop could get lost in their returns as the post sales representative had not arranged for the pickup. I replied to her email and she replied back saying that she had not arranged for the courier to take it back and they had made a mistake, so who did then I didn't!!
48 hours pass by and still no contact by them re a replacement so I rang again on late Friday afternoon, this time I was told that the warehouse had recorded the return but they still have not arranged for a replacement, even though it is in stock. I was getting pretty frustrated with the whole thing now and wanted to know the day I will get my new laptop. I was advised that the girl who was dealing with my order was going to email me letting me know. I got an email but she said that logistics would probably get back to her next week Monday or Tuesday, it was Friday. That was it for me, I emailed her to cancel the order and get a refund, no reply from her so I called HP and spoke to someone who said they will put the refund through the next Monday and it will take 5 days to be deposited back into my account. I'm quite worried about that as I just cannot trust them at the moment. The condition of the product was unaaceptable and there was damage to it and their customer service is worse, they just don't care. I have been put off HP for life now, looking at buying Toshiba.


text:
Jakarta Shopping Extravaganza
Home » Jakarta Shopping Extravaganza » Find Souvenir » Souvenir Jakarta
Souvenir Jakarta
Souvenir Jakarta is the greatest gift and souvenir store in Jakarta. As we all knew that Jakarta is a crowded Metropolitan City. So, when you're looking for some gift or souvenir in short time and on time delivery... Souvenir Jakarta is the right answer to have the solution. Our Souvenir Store has provide all about gift or souvenir you need such as adventure souvenir, promotion souvenir, wedding souvenir, baby souvenir and party souvenir. All these kind of products are provided in big stock and 100% quality guaranteed. So, for all retail and wholesaler can also buy all these kind of products through online or offline transaction.
Address | : | Jl. Swadaya I No. 42, Pejaten Timur, Jakarta Selatan 12510, Indonesia |
Phone | : | 62 21 7827623 |
Fax | : | 62 21 78842101 |
: | - | |
Website | : | http://www.souvenir-jakarta.com |

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Financial Aid
Posted by wsilvabr on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:55 PM
The Grannis-Martin Memorial Foundation gives scholarships to students with a Minnesota connection through church, family, a Minnesota institution or organization in which the applicants are or have been involved, and who are entering or currently attending a seminary with plans to work in a United Methodist ministry.
The awards are originally made as loans with one-third of the outstanding loan balance forgiven for each year of service to the United Methodist Church.
Tags: Methodist, scholarships, wsilvabr
Contact Us
Manage Your Awards
Scholarship/Grant Deadlines 2015/2016:
Seminary Grant
Vocation Award, Directors, Trustees & Wallace Scholarships
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Luther Seminary Mourer Loan Cancellation Form


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ALL Denise Carkhuff POSTS
Though complex, rep and warranty insurance use is growing
Blog Entry:
January 23, 2013 4:30 AM | Author: Denise Carkhuff
Denise Carkhuff is a partner at
Jones Day
. She has more than 17 years of merger and acquisition experience with a focus on private equity.
For years, I listened to insurance brokers market a product called rep and warranty insurance, which they said would help get deals done. During this time, I had clients consider it, but ultimately they didn't buy it. It seemed nobody wanted to be the first or only one using this new product. Today, however, this insurance is fast becoming a valuable deal tool.
For background and to simplify: Reps and warranties in mergers and acquisitions are sellers' promises about the business being sold. If those promises turn out to be inaccurate, buyers don't want to chase sellers after closing to recover their damages. Consequently, depending on the type of deal, sellers are often required to place some of the purchase price in escrow at closing to give buyers an accessible pot of money to seek recovery.
Depending on the deal, the escrow may be the only source of recovery (typically called an "escrow only" deal) or the sellers may be on the hook for amounts greater than the escrow, typically up to an agreed cap.
In the escrow only deal, buyers may not be comfortable with the size of the escrow. In a deal with a gap between the escrow and the cap, buyers may not be comfortable they can find and collect from sellers after closing. This is particularly true when sellers are private equity funds at the end of their life cycle or individual sellers. Rep and warranty insurance has become a way for buyers to get protection they want but don't get from sellers.
At Jones Day, we've now had a chance to see rep and warranty insurance in action. The good news is some insurers move quickly to complete their diligence and get the paperwork in place. Also, buyers seem to think the product is reasonably priced for the coverage provided, and sellers often will pay the premium rather than tie up more money in escrow. The not-as-good news is that the insurance can be quite complex, particularly in operation.
Here are some issues to consider:
The policy is a separate contract from your purchase agreement and is negotiable with the insurer. Terms and exclusions differ among insurers, so shop around for terms, not just rates. Don't assume you will get the same coverage under your policy that you negotiated with seller. For example, even if you can recover consequential damages under your purchase agreement, insurance companies will not insure them.
In operation, the policy must be viewed in tandem with the purchase agreement. For example, if you pursue fraud claims against sellers to eliminate indemnity limits, you could, depending on the policy's exclusions, undermine your insurance claim. Also, be sure you understand the insurance company's defense, settlement and subrogation rights under the policy before you assert or try to settle an indemnity claim under the purchase agreement. Again, you don't want these actions to undermine your insurance claim.
Finally, remember that insurance covers unknown liabilities. There is no coverage for items scheduled as exceptions to the reps and warranties. Also, be mindful that third-party reports from lawyers, accountants and consultants will be reviewed and the contents likely excluded from coverage. Thus, there is no reward for the "throw everything in but the kitchen sink" style of reporting.
Rep and warranty insurance is now a viable tool in the M&A toolkit. While it can be a relatively quick and affordable way for a buyer to get protection a seller can't or won't give, there are traps for the unwary that require insurance and M&A expertise to work around.
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text:
Major Section: PROGRAMMING
When integers are viewed in their two's complement representation,
returns the bitwise logical inclusive or of the first
with the bitwise logical `not' of the second.
The guard for logorc2
requires its arguments to be integers.
is defined in Common Lisp. See any Common Lisp
documentation for more information.


text:
- Like
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mr 1 minute man
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he didn't last very long and i have the same problem. I would love fine some lady that let me fuck her like this. I always what to fuck my wife like this but she doesn't let me fuck her in the ass. She let me put my finger up there but not my dick so if anyone what to fuck like this get hold of me
C October 14, 2012
author needs to lookup definition of creampie... otherwise good vid
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z August 28, 2011
this clip is like fight club. it starts with the end.
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lovely cock mate
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that is such a nice cock id fuck it
Ms.Teach November 6, 2010
is that cool...push a cock in the hole where come the poo out ?! yeah ! it is cool xD
Assta November 18, 2010
Who cares if it hurts her, I fuck her arse hard and make her scream before I shoot my load up there
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she screaming mush!
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culo fantastico
estavergaestuya September 25, 2010
k buen creampie en el mero culo muy buen video
ENFERMO September 10, 2010
ENFERMO June 13, 2010
huh June 7, 2010
obviously it don't feel good...that was 2 painful for sure...well they were paid 2 do that,fuck in the asshole...
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you are so brilliant in this work that you could be a dream for any body like barak obama
novice July 12, 2010
@ huh It can hurt but if done right it can feel so very very good for both partners
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shes a freakin squeeky toy
66666vergagrande July 1, 2011
que buenn culoooooooo por diosss se lo partiria en mil pedazos
thisguy April 30, 2011
that wasn't a creampie, he came on her ass, not in it. still a good video though
web developer March 28, 2011
very good sexx
prds July 11, 2011
ke ermosura de chica de su gran culo ni ablarr eyecularia en el una y otra vez
fghg July 22, 2011
it doesnt hurt, what i do since my ass is tight cos im only 19 and i fuck older guys with big dicks i use alot of lube and i have them put it in slowly. have them fck me inch by inch until there slowly all the way inside me and then they slowly fuck me and then speed up
Big D August 19, 2011
I liked the bullseye
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lol he shoots his load on his own arm hahaha
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Just once I'd love to find a gal that can take my fuck stick in her ass till I cum in her ass.
israel January 7, 2011
shes sooo cutie omg this is my favorite video.
Lord Percy February 13, 2011
Not a creampie if it doesn't re-emerge from inside. Not that it would in his case I suppose - I come about that much, but I'm getting on in years. His cock looks like a dead ringer for mine. Given that I'm older, it feels like plagiary!
Lord Percy February 13, 2011
Oh well yes, if he came twice in one session that wasn't so bad.
wowzurs March 2, 2011
I wish i could do a girl in her ass
Tom February 13, 2011
goddamn, she looks like my colleague...
Seamab May 26, 2010
What a anal sex. what will she do when next day she will shit ? her ass hole is so nice so nice one can not explain.
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Cleveland Cavaliers vs Chicago BullsSat, November 30, 2013 - 7:30 PMQuicken Loans Arena in Cleveland, OH |
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text:
Tetradyma 5x5
Product Information
Object | Take apart and put back together. |
Difficulty | Level 8 - Demanding |
Brand | Pelikan |
Types | Yavuz Demirhan, European Wood Puzzles |
Dimensions | 6.5 cm x 6.5 cm x 6.5 cm / 2.6 in x 2.6 in x 2.6 in |
Packaging | Cardboard Box |
Product Description
This puzzle was crafted in Europe with absolutely fantastic quality.
Each of the puzzles of Pelikan design are unparalleled in their class!
Every piece of the puzzle is precisely cut and very well made; you cannot find its equal anywhere else.
The diversity in wood makes each puzzle a unique masterpiece.
The Tetradyma 5x5 is a unique four piece burr cube.
Designed by Turkish Designer Yavuz Demirhan.


text:
F1 Games
Public Group active 5 days, 7 hours agoA place to discuss Codemasters' F1 games, Gran Turismo, Forza Motorsport, rFactor, iRacing and everything else to do with virtual motorsport.
F1F Xbox 360 World Championship – Season 2: NOW COMPLETE!
This topic contains 525 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by MadDogMolloy 2 years, 6 months ago.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


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My tests over kmixer effects, Seem to be none... |
My tests over kmixer effects, Seem to be none... |
Jan 16 2003, 09:40
WinABX developer Group: Developer Posts: 1578 Joined: 1-October 01 Member No.: 137 |
I've been doing some tests over kmixer effect, both using standard waveout and directsound, connecting my TBSC digital output to my Audiophile digital input, under WinXP (no SP1), and I'm sure that with a single stream at 48 KHz, with the TBSC mixer volume at max, the kmixer doesn't touch a bit of the audio stream, it's sent bit-perfectly to the output of the card. At 44.1 KHz I can't be so conclusive, since the TBSC resamples everything to 48 KHz and I've had some problems to test it the same way, but according to my analog measurements in loopback mode of Audiophile output, there is no trace of signal degradation over the 44.1 KHz played data.
...So it's very possible that this kmixer sounding worse than ASIO or k.streaming is our old friend mr. placebo entering into scene again. Anyway, I'll do some more tests in the future. This post has been edited by KikeG: Jan 16 2003, 09:42 |
Jan 16 2003, 20:02
Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 29-December 02 From: USA Member No.: 4308 |
Could you describe this setup in a bit more detail. How did you generate the 48Khz WAV file how did you record it digitally and how did you compare.
Try this with a 44.1Khz wav file on your M-Audio card and let us know what you find. So, far no one has found a way to get the exact bits you stuff into Directsound or waveOut come out at the other end unmodified. If you somehow found a way around that problem, that would be great. Please describe in detail how you do it. Good sample files are the DTS encoded material from swedish broadcasting run into a DTS receiver over digital out. If the receiver can decode the DTS signal at the right speed you are there! This helps a lot with the placebo question. Stereo hiss is very different from a correctly decoded DTS signal. Cheers Thomas This post has been edited by thomaspf: Jan 16 2003, 20:03 |
Jan 17 2003, 09:46
WinABX developer Group: Developer Posts: 1578 Joined: 1-October 01 Member No.: 137 |
I used WinXP pre-SP1. As I said, at 48 KHz, I used the digital output of the TBSC connected to the digital input of the M-Audio Audiophile 2496. I set the volume of the TBSC wave slider in the mixer at max. I played several signals I generated with CoolEdit Pro 1.2a in 16 bit mode. First, a 1 KHz at -1dB and another at -60 dB dithered sine that showed no digital or analog distortion artifacts, or amplitude changes when recorded. And second, and more important, a series of single pulses with known amplitude (data values) , that showed exactly same data values after recorded. For a more thorough test, I will record a musical singal and the proceed to compare bit-by bit the signal, using EAC wave comparator, but I don't think there will be any difference. The result was the same with waveout or directsound.
Note that if the output of the mixer wave slider of the TBSC is not at max, all I've said doesn't hold. Digital distortion artifacts appear and the recorded data is no longer equal to the played data. As I said, with 44.1 KHz I couldn't use a digital comparison, since the card resamples everything to 48 KHz and when I did the test, due to some operating limitations with my Win98SE, I couldn't have a reference of the output of a hardware resampled 44.1 KHz wave file without kmixer effect, to compare. Now I have, so I will try so make a similar test with 44.1 KHz data. Alternatively, I used analog output and input of the Audiophile, connected to each other (loopback configuration). The recording was done in 24 bit mode, with AP mixer disabled, and I played several test signals both in Win98SE (without kmixer effect) and in WinXP (with kmixer effect), and all the analog measurements I did with several 16 bit dithered signals generated with CEP (dynamic range, frequency response, distortion) were the same the same, I didn't appreciate any differences. I this case of 44.1 KHz I'm almost sure that the data is not altered, but since I can't make a digital copy, I can't prove it 100%. But even if the kmixer does something, it doesn't reflect into high precision analog quality measurements so I can conclude that, at least, it won't be audible. I don't have any DTS decoder available to check if there's a problem here, but as I said, I'll make some more tests and try to get more conclusive results when I have time. Now, could you describe how did you do your tests? Maybe you card internal mixer was the one that was altering the data played? This post has been edited by KikeG: Jan 17 2003, 12:04 |
Jan 17 2003, 11:52
Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 21-March 02 Member No.: 1583 |
Did anyone actually claimed that it sounds better? I thought what we're going for here is accuracy, as in what goes in MUST come out the same instead of something else NOT intended.
Jan 17 2003, 12:06
WinABX developer Group: Developer Posts: 1578 Joined: 1-October 01 Member No.: 137 |
I don't think anybody has claimed it sounds better, more the opposite.
Jan 17 2003, 16:17
Group: Developer Posts: 1679 Joined: 23-December 01 From: Germany Member No.: 731 |
So basically all of thomaspf claims turn out to be false?
-------------------- "To understand me, you'll have to swallow a world." Or maybe your words.
Jan 17 2003, 17:17
Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 29-December 02 From: USA Member No.: 4308 |
Very interesting. All the experiments I did came after I upgraded my PC to XP from Win98 and something was wrong. I have my collection of music on HD in Monkey audio format and after the upgrade I could ABX the digital out of my computer from my CD player which just did not make sense.
Many people pointed me towards jitter which is so small an effect on my system that it did not make sense either, so I ended up looking at the bits. I send and recorded the 16bit 44.1Khz streams in loopback mode on the M-audio and XP/SP1 and the streams are indeed different when doing a bit compare. I have never tried 48Khz before. Sending the DTS or HDCD encoded 16bit/44.1Khz files is a reliable method to see whether you have this problem without extensive ABXing and the problem has manifested itself for many others as well. I'd be interested to hear what you find if you do your loopback test on the M-audio with a digital loopback and a 16bit/44.1Khz file. I will do a little more testing on 48Khz files in 16 and 24bits as well. Cheers Thomas |
Jan 17 2003, 18:43
Moderator Group: Super Moderator Posts: 3936 Joined: 29-September 01 Member No.: 73 |
Loopbacking a soundcard into itself can lead to problems.
1- The clock is left as "master", and the input is bit exact -> depending on the latency between the output creating the bits, and the input reading them, there can be skipping. 2- The clock is set to "digital input" -> anything can occur... the clock is completely disabled, the input is used to clock the output... that is the other end of the input cable ! It's a kind of Larsen effect, but in the time domain instead of the intensity one... 3- There is no clock setting, and/or the soundcard resamples -> The recording is OK, but the bits are different from the original. |
Jan 17 2003, 19:21
Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 29-December 02 From: USA Member No.: 4308 |
Interesting. I thought input and output of this card can actually work asynchronously. So if you make the sending port master the input port will derive the clock via the input stream. However, I haver never tried to send a 44.1Khz stream and record 48Khz at the same time.
In any case, some people repeated this with end-to-end tests and found the same problem. Also the problem with HDCD/DTS signatures on 16bit/44.1Khz files goes between the sound card and an external receiver. These problems all go away if using ASIO, including the capability of using digital loopback to record exactly the bits you send. My receiver/DAC is currently in the factory for upgrades so I have not played with the kernel streaming plugin. Cheers Thomas This post has been edited by thomaspf: Jan 17 2003, 19:31 |
Jan 18 2003, 17:59
WinABX developer Group: Developer Posts: 1578 Joined: 1-October 01 Member No.: 137 |
thomaspf, there's one thing I don't understand... with my M-Audio Audiophile it is impossible to loopback the digital in and out, because, as Pio says, with this card, in order to record a spdif signal the clock must be set to external in order to lock the card with the incoming spdif data, so the internal clock is disabled, and if the external clock is disabled no clock can be sent to the digital output. (?)
Jan 19 2003, 06:11
Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 29-December 02 From: USA Member No.: 4308 |
Strange. I have an M-audio DIO24/96 and I have no problem doing this. I set the master clock to internal xtal and can record the digital output via loopback just fine. I have not connected anything to the monitor mixer. Is the Audiophile different from the DIO in this respect?
It turns out that input and output are not asynchronous but I can record only when I play and record at the same frequency. I am a bit lost how skipping can occur here. This locking seems to get one sample read for one sample written. The internal API delays might affect when a sample actually hits the wire after calling the API but as long as you don't have underruns on the send side you will end up sending the complete consecutive stream. All these bits will get recorded in the same order with the same values with a varying amount of leading and trailing samples of zeros. I just completed a whole set of recordings. I used ntrack for recording the S/PDIF input and played the tracks with different output methods using Winamp (wave,DS, ASIO), foobar2000 (wave, DS, KS) on the same machine, and my external CD player. I wrote a little command line tool for finding offset in the recorded files and doing the comparison but I can't find that anymore, so I did an early check using the statistics function in cooledit2000. So far, I get the same picture that I got 8 month ago. The values in this statistic that are invariant to leading and trailing samples of zeros in the recorded files have exactly the same values for the EAC ripped wav file, the recording from the external player, and the loopback recording played via ASIO. All the other recordings fail easy checks like min and max values for the samples including the recording using foobar with KS output. I have to work tomorrow, so I will probably have to continue this next week. @KikeG how did you do the bit compare between the recordings and your original file. Do you have some tool that finds the correct offset in the recording and does a sample for sample compare? Cheers Thomas This post has been edited by thomaspf: Jan 19 2003, 06:20 |
Jan 19 2003, 14:51
Moderator Group: Super Moderator Posts: 3936 Joined: 29-September 01 Member No.: 73 |
Actually, long ago, I managed the same loopback with the Marian Marc 2. But I don't remember how. I don't know if the clock was on master or slave, and if I used coax or optical. I tried more recently, and couldn't find how I did the first time. I think only one of the four combinations (coax/opt + internal/external) must work.
When recording from the DAT analog input through the digital input of the card, I often run into a clock loopback because the DAT being my D to A converter, it is always in slave mode, and I often turn the souncard to slave first when I have to record. At this time, both are slaved to each other. On the DAT, there is a display showing the synching on the external source. In this configuration, it blinks crazily, like a broken fluorescent lamp. One question : what is an ASIO driver ? You seem to imply that we have the choice between an ASIO driver and a non-ASIO one. I don't see this in the Marian Marc 2 (supporting ASIO 2.0). I wonder if it's not an "ASIO-only" card. |
Jan 19 2003, 18:03
Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 29-December 02 From: USA Member No.: 4308 |
Windows has supported a various driver models over the different versions. Most of these were introduced by Microsoft but the professional music market has developed it's own standards.
Microsft has MME, Waveout/in, Direct Sound Steinberg has ASIO Tascam has gsif The M-audio cards have a multi headed driver that let's you run applications written to either standard talking to the card. I used the term ASIO driver loosely to mean the code that transfers PCM samples from a player application to the ASIO driver implemented for a card. Besides some professional programs someone in Japan wrote a Winamp output plugin for ASIO, which is what I used for this test. Since the Marian card supports ASIO that should work for that card as well. http://www.aikis.or.jp/~otachan/out_asio.html is the link to the latest. Besides Winamp I have used ntrack with ASIO and it has support built in. I use coax for the loopback and master clock is set to internal crystal. Cheers Thomas This post has been edited by thomaspf: Jan 19 2003, 23:19 |
Jan 20 2003, 08:42
Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 29-December 02 From: USA Member No.: 4308 |
A few more results. First I recreated this little tool to check whether I can find a series of samples in another file. I then applied this to find the ripped original in all the recordings.
In the first round I found a bit exact copy of the original file only in the ASIO file but the recording from the external CD player had skips in it. So, I went back and it turns out that I recorded this file with the master clock still set to internal. I changed that to S/PDIF in and 44.1Khz and the new recording now also contains the correct bits as expected. I then repeated my recording experiment with the same track resampled to 48Khz by ssrc and again the version recorded when playing via the ASIO plugin is correct. I only checked waveout in this case but again the bits are not identical to the original. This is all in loopback since I can't use a second computer to do an end-to-end and the external CD player only emits 44.1Khz. Where does this leave us? While I can't make end-to-end tests with 2 computers like KikeG I still can't seem to reproduce his results of bit perfect playback. Can anyone else on this board use WAV or direct sound playback in Winamp or Foobar to play the DTS/DD encoded files from the swedish radio to your receiver and get the receiver to lock? Can you do this when you switch to the ASIO output plugin in Winamp. In any case you must have full volume and all effects disabled. @kikeG Do you have any recommendation to what I could try different? Cheers Thomas |
Jan 20 2003, 13:00
WinABX developer Group: Developer Posts: 1578 Joined: 1-October 01 Member No.: 137 |
I have only one computer too, but two soundcards in it. I've doing some more tests this weekend.
I've not been able to loopback the digital in and out of the Audiophile, no matter what I try, using latest drivers for both XP and Win98. Your card uses same drivers, but if you are able to record digitally I guess the hardware must be a little different. If using ASIO/KS you get bit-perfect results, that proves it works in your case. (don't try ks of foobar because this prog. already changes the data due to additional internal processing) In order to check bit-perfect reproduction, I connected the digital output of my TBSC to the digital in of the Audiophile, but this works well only for 48 KHz data, since the TBSC resamples 44.1 KHz. After doing more tests using this system, I've concluded that, at 48 KHz, the data played is bit perfect. I've checked this recording 20 sec. of music, manually adjusting the starting offset of it, and then mixing with it an inverted copy of the original data, in CEP. The result is all zeroes, that means that the data was exactly the same. This works no matter you use waveout or directsound. With 44.1 KHz data I've found some differences. It's impossible to use same method because the TBSC internal resampling changes slightly the data depending on what OS and software are you using. In this case, I've relied on traditional signal quality measurements (SNR, dynamic range, frequency response, low level distortion and graphical analysis of the noise spectrum) both using the digital output and the analog output of the TBSC, obtaining same results in both cases. In case of analog output, analog recording was done with the Audiophile in 24 bit mode to obtain greater precision. I've found that, in case of the TBSC at 44.1 KHz , waveout output uses kmixer resampling whereas directsound and kernel streaming use internal hardware resampling. Kmixer resampling is easily detectable, and offers slightly better high-frequency response (hardly audible), but a noticeably worse SNR due to increased digital distortion (audible? could be, for good systems/ears/music). Disabling directsound acceleration of the card (also called hardware mixing, etc), kmixer gets in too, getting same as with waveout. So, ks and hardware-compatible directsound output offer indistinguishable quality according to these measurements, but waveout distorts a little bit more the signal. However, dropping the TBSC and looping back just the Audiophile analog in and out the results are the same no matter what I use:waveout, directsound or kernel streaming, or W98 waveout. No difference according to these analog measurements, so I can guess that kmixer does never kick in, in this case. I didn't try ASIO, but I assume there will be no difference. So, my conclusion: kmixer changes the data depending on your card, drivers and output method. Directsound is not supposed to change the data, at least if your card offers directsound hardware support (hardware mixing or acceleration), but kernel streming is more secure. With good semi-pro cards I guess kmixer won't change the data in any case, but I've only checked this for my card. Note: all this holds with the mixer wave slider at max. in the case of the TBSC, and with the Audiophile patchbay/router set to hardware output connected to wave output (no monitor mixer selected at the hardware output, please). Otherwise the output data may change due to re-scaling of the data. I've seen that kmixer acts when simultaneous different sampling rate signals are sent to a non-resampling card (Audiophile in my case) or when the sampling rate/bitdepth is not supported from the card. I've seen also that the resampling quality slider in the audio devices control panel applet only ahs effect when kmixer resampling happens with directsound signals. With waveout signals, kmixer resampling quality is always the max. possible. All this happens as said by Microsoft. Another note: SSRC resampling is better that TBSC (and any other AC'97 card) resampling, and "more" better than kmixer resampling, so this is another viable option. Hope this clears up (if possible (?) ) the issue. This post has been edited by KikeG: Jan 20 2003, 14:19 |
Jan 20 2003, 13:03
WinABX developer Group: Developer Posts: 1578 Joined: 1-October 01 Member No.: 137 |
So, all software that uses waveout (WinABX, abc/hr, PCABX, others) won't play max. quality signal with TBSC cards and I guess that with other AC97 cards too.
This post has been edited by KikeG: Jan 20 2003, 13:07 |
Jan 20 2003, 14:50
WinABX developer Group: Developer Posts: 1578 Joined: 1-October 01 Member No.: 137 |
thomaspf, make sure that in the settings of the patchbay/router of your card the hardware spdif out is connected to the wave spdif out, not to the monitor mixer.
Also, about ABXing your card against a cd player, in order to have a meaningful comparison, first you have to match the ouput levels of the devices at test with a max. difference of 0.1 dB, using for example a 1 KHz tone. What driver version do you use? |
Jan 20 2003, 18:32
Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 29-December 02 From: USA Member No.: 4308 |
Looks like we are getting on the same page here!
I have no connections to the monitor mixer. Matching the levels comes for free in my case since I am just passing the digital stream out to my DAC and my whole investigation started by my assumption that given the same bits that should sound the same. I have made all these experiments initially on the 5.10.00.27 drivers. Since I also use that PC for watching DVDs I am now using the 5.10.00.31 wave cyclic driver which does not have the problem of corrupting the time stamps leading to audio/video sync problems. The results are the same. The real news to me is that you can use directsound with hardware mixing and get bit perfect playback. This makes a lot of sense sense since that should also bypass kmixer. Unfortunately when I use the DS output plugin v2.2.6 and select force harware mixing it does not work but pops up an error dialog stating that it can't create a direct sound buffer. What are your settings to make this work on the M-audio card. Cheers Thomas This post has been edited by thomaspf: Jan 21 2003, 02:56 |
Jan 21 2003, 10:15
WinABX developer Group: Developer Posts: 1578 Joined: 1-October 01 Member No.: 137 |
In my Winamp 2 directsound plugin, I have no options to force directsound acceleration, I just leave it as is. I can disable direcsound acceleration only in foobar.
With my Audiophile, the results are the same no matter if I use the .26 or the .27 drivers, or waveout or directsound. The analog output signal is of the same quality than in Win98 or ASIO in my case, but I can't be sure that no bits have been changed. I'ts a pity I dont have any DTS decoder or anything to receive a spdif signal in order to check what's happening. This post has been edited by KikeG: Jan 21 2003, 10:16 |
Jan 21 2003, 21:58
Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 29-December 02 From: USA Member No.: 4308 |
My DAC/surround sound proc is on it's way back from the factory. I will do some final eval with DD/DTS encoded files next weekend.
Cheers Thomas |
Jan 24 2003, 17:14
WinABX developer Group: Developer Posts: 1578 Joined: 1-October 01 Member No.: 137 |
Ok, I've managed to get decent drivers for my motherboard-embedded CMI8738 card. I've installed M-Audio Delta DIO2448 WDM drivers, which use same hardware, and I can say that, in case of a single stream, and setting the wave mixer slider at max., the digital output is bit-perfect, no matter if the stream is 44.1 KHz, 48 KHz, directsound or waveout. It is pretty clear that in this case kmixer doesn't alter the signal at all.
About Audiophile 2496, DIO2496 and similars, considering that I couldn't detect degradation on the analog output of mine, and since the driver I've used for my CMI8738 card is also from M-Audio, I think it is pretty probable that the output of the former card is also bit-perfect in my case. Still, there can be problems with resampling cards, such as the ones I verified with my Turtle Beach Santa Cruz. Edit : OS is WinXP (no SP1) This post has been edited by Pio2001: Jan 24 2003, 23:10 |
Jan 24 2003, 17:41
Group: Members Posts: 473 Joined: 7-June 02 Member No.: 2244 |
QUOTE (KikeG @ Jan 24 2003 - 05:14 PM) Ok, I've managed to get decent drivers for my motherboard-embedded CMI8738 card. I've installed M-Audio Delta DIO2448 WDM drivers, which use same hardware, and I can say that, in case of a single stream, and setting the wave mixer slider at max., the digital output is bit-perfect, no matter if the stream is 44.1 KHz, 48 KHz, directsound or waveout. It is pretty clear that in this case kmixer doesn't alter the signal at all. I have the same onBoard sound. Does this produce bit-perfect results only with these special drivers? I tried a digital loop-back some time ago, which didn't yield perfect results, but as was mentioned somewhere, loop-back is not a fair test because of the clocking. As the analog quality is terrible, I've hardly used it, but if the digital output is ok, I'd gain a digital coax in/out (not that I need one... ). |
Jan 25 2003, 00:31
Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 29-December 02 From: USA Member No.: 4308 |
I am expecting to get my DAC back this weekend and want to close this out. I would like to recreate your environment and it would be great if you could share more detail about the software you are using for your tests. I still have not been able to recreate your successes. What player are you using? What plugins at what version with what setting are you using to get bit perfect playback? What drivers are you using? I will try to recreate and post my results over the weekend. Thomas This post has been edited by thomaspf: Jan 25 2003, 04:36 |
Jan 26 2003, 14:38
WinABX developer Group: Developer Posts: 1578 Joined: 1-October 01 Member No.: 137 |
QUOTE (Continuum @ Jan 24 2003 - 05:41 PM) I have the same onBoard sound. Does this produce bit-perfect results only with these special drivers? With generic drivers, it was impossible because they always scaled the data, no scaling was impossible. |
Jan 26 2003, 14:41
WinABX developer Group: Developer Posts: 1578 Joined: 1-October 01 Member No.: 137 |
Player: Winamp 2.81
Drivers: latest M-Audio Dio2448 Recording with Audiophile 2496 spdif in. |
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 7th May 2015 - 07:06 |