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21" deep wall cabinets flanking the stove-- WWYD?
My KD has told me the hood vent I've picked needs a lot of support from the sides and below, so she's created a layout that includes a set of two 21" deep wall cabinets flanking the hood. You can see it in this drawing:
I like the look of it but just can't figure out how to optimize their functionality. This line of cabinets does not have pull outs at this size so I could do roll out trays at the bottom, but what else is there? Can anyone help?
I'm confused by your picture - are those cabinets deeper than the rest of the upper caninets? Do they come all the way down to the counter? Has she spec'd the cabinets allowed next to a cooktop - someone else with more experience will weigh in, but I'm pretty sure you can't put those cabinets right next to the cooktop.
would not accept this......immediate space left and right of. cooking surface should be free. call the tech team of your hood manufacturer.Is it an under cabinet hood? that should be a slam dunk for installation-what is the hood maker and model? you can usually read the install instructions provided on the website, along with specs. Post on the appliance forum as well.
I'm not quite sure what's going on there but I have to agree with Herb--undercabinet hoods aren't made to require support from the side cabinets. And definitely not from below.
What hood is it? I guess if you ordered a handcrafted stone hood from somewhere, that would be a different ball of wax but...whaaaaat?
I'm afraid that everyone is having a little too much fun mocking my kitchen plan.
I have to say, I haven't been totally thrilled with this one aspect of my design but I didn't realize you guys would say that it was this bad. Ouch.
Here is a picture from the merrilat website that shows almost exactly what she is recommended. At countertop height, there will be 18"H x 9"D x 15"W open shelf units, then above that 42"H x 21"D x 15"W cabinets with doors. All of this is to support the mantle hood face that will cover the built in blower unit.
As shown in the picture, there will be 6" clearance of countertop between the 30" GE Cafe range and the open shelf unit that sits on the counter. The range hood vent is 42"W.
Hopefully everyone who is so opposed to the idea can give me a clear understanding of what is wrong and what I might be able to do instead. I'm really on the last leg of designing this kitchen, so I'd really like to get this figured out. I appreciate any help.
A better link
Here is a link that might be useful: Merrilat website showing what the KD has planned
The hood doesn't need the to the counter cabinets for "support" or any other reason other than she's probably padding the bill. With cabinets to each side to attach to, and the wall to the rear, they are plenty secure if the installer uses the right kinds of screws and hits the studs. In addition, those cabinets to the counter are a safety hazard, leaving you no room for an emergency landing space. They get in the way of using your counters. Just remove them. Simple. (There are plenty of unsafe and/or silly design "showcased" all the time. Real world building codes and common sense should triumph over them though.)
A large alcove that houses a large range (such as the one pictured in the link) will feel spacious enough to comfortably cook.
I am worried an alcove for a 30" range could feel like cooking in a cave.
Also, if you are prepping on an island and turning around to cook that's one thing. But if your prep space is on either side of your range, those shallow counter cabs and 21" uppers will just be in the way.
Here is the floorplan. I'll have a spacious kitchen with an island prep area directly across from the stove.
I hear you about the cave feeling. That's something I'll have to figure out my feelings on.
But I don't understand if there is actually a fire hazard here. Because the open cabinets that are at the counter level are only 9" deep, so I would think I have a big space in front of them on which to put a hot dish in an emergency. It's not one of those tiled in caves that you sometimes see. You can see in the merrilat picture that there is room for a dish there.
I am still open to everyone's thoughts and opinions-- so I appreciate all comments.
Hang in there, swfr! We really want you to have an awesome kitchen designed and built by the most skilled experts in their fields. I like the look of what you've got there - considered it myself - but I have seen that style used more with wider ranges.
Not mocking your plan, just enjoying the color of the pros' comments! Much better to laugh together now than to cry after the money is spent and materials installed.
Have you seen a similar kitchen IRL with the dimensions of yours? I learn something every time I walk through a showroom, open house, or big box store.
Misunderstood your original post- so your doing an mantle hood with 9" deep cabinets at the counter- not 21" as it appeared- apologies
I gather that a true mantle hood is not going to be available at the size your considering in the line your looking at so the KD is trying to build it from parts?
At 9" deep the only reason to use pullouts is when decorative elements leave you no choice.
Most often the Legs of a mantle hood are 9-12" wide, you have 15" so are already taking up the width of a standard mantle hood -why not use one?
I'd still say that ANY properly built hood does not need support to the counter. I've put in hoods surrounds that size without issue.
With 6" of clearance from the side of the cooking surface you do meet the minimum speck for most stoves. But with the extra depth AND narrow opening you are going to affect the draft of the hood.
Lastly if you find that you have to force things too much in a brand to get what you want look into another. Often when things get complicated a pricier brand actually turns out to be cheaper.
Hearth mantle hoods are all about proportion.30" isn't the right proportion for the cabinets to the counter considering the size of the overall run on that wall. Nor is that dinky spacing to either side of the range proportionate or safe. At minimum, with a 30" range, you'd want a 54" alcove (and hood above). That gives you 12" of space to either side. With the overall size of the room though, 30" is much too small visually.
Are you willing to move to a larger range? And have a larger alcove interior space? I'd want at least a 36" range, with a 60" interior space to be proportionate (and SAFE). Something even more proportionate to the room considering the ceiling height would be a 48" range with a 72" interior alcove space. All would require that the hood above also become larger.
And, even given the larger alcove space that I'm recommending, it doesn't meet the NKBA standards for emergency landing space around a cooking zone. The minimum recommended is 12" to one side and 15" to another. I'm only recommending 12" of clear space.
BTW, mantle hoods are budget busters. 3-6K is about average when you include the inserts needed and install. That doesn't include upgrading the external ventilation ductwork to be larger to carry the larger CFM though. Or creating that if it doesn't exist. I've got a kitchen being installed right now where her mantle hood cost her 7K for just the custom cabinets and insert alone. It's got the really pretty corbels and some onlays and is in an expensive doorstyle. Plus, she's got a 1400 CFM blower.
As for what you can do instead...
How bout making all uppers 15" deep, and all lowers 28" deep (with the drawers going deep, too) to get more storage? I can't say enough how happy I am that my pot drawers have a useful internal front to back depth of nearly 23", the extra 4" means that a full extra row of pots fits instead of just one. (Of course you need to consider the top to bottom height, also - which is commonly called "depth" on this forum).
Same issue on uppers - if you have 15" deep then your large dinner plates will fit as will two rows of small plates and multiple rows of glasses. And in a large kitchen, I think it also makes sense to scale up from an aesthetic standpoint.
You've fought with this space for so long, and look what a nice plan you have! I don't think anyone is poking fun, it's just hard to not take things personally when comments are very direct. I had to step back several times during my planning and remind myself of that.
If you have a look planned that fits those to the counter cabs and love them, see if the KD can model it on the computer. Mock it up at home with some books or boxes if you can to see how it feels. If they look ok to you and you love them, go for it!
If you just have them because the KD says you need them, which seems to me isn't true based on the experts here, then I'd trust the people here and lose them. In a kitchen built on functionality, they seem out of place with no clear function. Unless you love them, then their function is to make you happy :-)
What does your gut say?
I appreciate everyone who has chimed in. And I really appreciate those of you who have encouraged me to stick with it and have a thick skin. I truly do know that everyone here is after my best interests. I will forever be indebted to all on GW who have helped along the way-- not just in this case but in all the other threads I have created. So thank you.
I have gone back to the drawing books. It wasn't really me pushing for this look, but instead the KD telling me that is what was needed to get the front panel that I like.
This is a beautiful hood that is "perfection" in my opinion. It is the look I am going for (and clearly not hitting the mark.)
Traditional Kitchen by Princeton Design-Build Firms Lasley Brahaney Architecture + Construction
We aren't taking the cabinets to the ceiling so it won't ever look exactly like this, but the hood is on an external wall so we should be able to just vent out the back and keep the top of the cabinets even. I just can't get the KD to tell me if this design is possible.
I have to admit I am very frustrated with this design process because I come on here and get great ideas and then take it to the KD and she just isn't able (or willing?) to design what I describe and show her. This was the same kitchen design center that helped me with our last renovation and did an amazing job helping me through the design process (but has since laid off the KD who I loved so much) and now the KD that is there just doesn't seem all that helpful. I'm searching the cabinet catalog online to learn what my options are and how to solve the problems that we're having. Shouldn't that be her job? I think this poor woman is so overworked (trying to do the workload that three used to do) and burnt out that she isn't all that interested in making the kitchen exactly how i want it.
Anyways, this is our builder's cabinet supplier so I feel like I'm stuck. It is such a drag. I want to just get this hood thing figured out and be done with it!!! I truly, deeply love how everything else in our plan has turned out.
Much better. What brand of cabinets?
If I had to do that and couldn't just get then if the installer is very good it can be done on site, using pocket holes and screws.
You would need to be able to get a waincot panel with a wide enough bottom rail,with finished edges and Ideally finished back
3/4 ply finished two sides.
Do they only offer one line of cabinet? Ther are mid priced brands that offer that hood or something like it.
swfr - I really like that hood you just posted. I sincerely hope you are able to figure this out with your KD so you can get the look you want (bummer the othe rone is laid off). I love the style. That is the one thing I conceded to dh in the kitchen - he wants stainless and I relented BUT if it was my choice I'd pick exactly what you've shown.
Make sure to keep everyone updated and post pics when it's in!
Are you stuck with this KD? If she's not willing to get you what you want, another might be better.
I don't mind your layout with the little shelves (but I like the inspiration one better) but if you're only doing it because the KD thinks it's the only way, don't!
Hang in there swfr...I sympathize with your feelings of frustration. It can be difficult when people on the forum are giving you ideas they feel are in your best interest but the individuals you are working who are supposed to aid you in putting the plan into action aren't willing or able to help you.
I have a large mantel approx. 9 ft. from outside edge to outside edge. With a 36" range this leaves me approx. 24" of workspace on each side of the range and 12" columns down to the counter (9" pull-out 3 " scribe for moulding return). We chose to run the columns all the way down to the counter they were not needed for support. While we could have squeezed the mantle in a bit more we wanted to create a focal point. The proportions looked right when I drew them and were confirmed when I mocked the mantle up. After having used the kitchen we would not want anything less than the 24" for our needs. For certain people 12"-18" on each side of the range may work safely. For us the added space on each side of the range allows us to have uninterrupted work areas where we can sit multiple things down without moving other things and prep when needed.
If your latest picture is what you want and the builder's cabinet supplier is unable to provide a pre-made unit. There are ways around this. I would speak to your builder as well as the cabinet installer. Using the picture you posted as well as your measurements it is possible to create this on site or to have it made by someone else using materials provided by the builder's cabinet supplier.
You deserve to get the look you want and your requests are definitely reasonable.
Maybe something like this?
Dear Builder (or Dear Design Center Owner),
I am very frustrated with the cabinet design process because I take my ideas to the KD and she isn't doing what I describe and show her. My previous experience with this design center was great, but that was when three people were doing the jobs this one over-worked woman is now trying to do on her own. I'm searching the cabinet catalog online to learn what my options are and how to solve the problems that we're having. How do you suggest we solve this problem?
I am very appreciative of this support. My design fatigue makes everything seem harder than it is.
Kksmama, that was almost exactly what I did last week. here's my email that I sent to the design manager at the construction firm:
"I have to admit I'm not totally thrilled with the service that (KD) is providing. I know I am probably asking above and beyond what is normally expected for a (construction company) project, but I'm also paying for it. I'm feeling frustrated that she is so slow in getting back to me and has caused me to miss tomorrow's deadline. I often have to remind her that I'm waiting for items-- today I reminded her that I had emailed her questions over the weekend and I got a short response that she'll get me something tomorrow. I've also had to take it upon myself to study the merrilat catalog to figure out how to make our space work (specifically that corner to the left of the main sink) when other kitchen designers I've worked with in the past were very proactive in helping me figure out what would work and what would be best in my space. I wish that it felt like KD was partnering with me in this.
I find it uncomfortable to complain, but I wanted to provide you with this feedback because I know you have clients working with her all the time. I've never built a house before, so I'm not sure what is fair to expect, but I have done two major renovations which went smoothly and had incredible results-- mostly due the fact that I had great partnerships with the designers and suppliers involved."
Builder's response was to thank me for calling it to their attention and to somewhat exc use the kd because they knew of a family emergency that I hadn't known about. I was hoping that after the email things would be different but that was last week and here I am still feeling ignored and underserved.
What do I do next?
these are extenuating curcumstances......I would get "local" custom to step in, or a kitchen design center where a designer can step in with their custom line and get going....ask for deduction of the kitchen part of your building project......[is this kitchen part of a bigger project?...so they won't be losing your entire project] .....this is nothing to fool with....you need attention to detail...start searching local or other custom right away. Your job isn't to fill in the gaps or navigate for them.....they are to be available to you from start to finish...they aren't....question really arises about their skills and expertise as well.
I would write another letter, referencing the previous email conversation which did not result in improvement. You need not give feedback, now, but state this as a problem and ask how he intends to resolve it (because of course, he must). He is not likely to be interested in your feelings of frustration, being ignored, or not having a KD act like your partner. He may take advantage of your feelings of wanting to be fair, compassionate, and comfortable. You can process your feelings with us, but then present this to him as a business problem that a businessman like him can solve. And we'll all feel happy for you!
I'm pulling my hair out over here. Have heard from the KD when I said directly that I want my kitchen to look like this:
Traditional Kitchen by Princeton Design-Build Firms Lasley Brahaney Architecture + Construction
And she first came back with this:
And I said something to the effect of, "No." I told her the columns were an absolute no.
And then she came back with this:
And this was her message:
"Okay, if you can find a liner less than 15" deep, then we'll cut the columns off at the bottom of the wall cabinets to build a "cabinet", run the mantle across it and then the installers will need to build support behind the mantle hood to support the vent liner. It's not recommended for anything deeper than 15", it simply may not stay on the wall if we go past this depth.
Also, please revisit the hood options from the Masterpiece website you've been using. They offer many hood styles that do not need the additional support underneath."
I really don't like it-- it changes how the surrounding cabinets look (they look monotonous and too thin in this new version) and the chopped off columns seem really unattractive. I've run out of patience. Am I being unreasonable? What should I do next? The construction design manager is going to be back from a week-long vacation on Monday and this was supposed to all have been resolved.
I'm fed up.
I'd really like professional opinions or the voice of experience to weigh in and tell me how to proceed. Is it too late to just can this whole thing and demand that we go with another line of cabinets. I feel like I have put SO MUCH work into this and I just can't get it worked out. Maybe it's the line of cabinets just truly doesn't provide what I want. Or maybe it's just that i'm not expressing myself well (although they say a picture is worth a thousand words, right?) But I can't keep hitting my head against the wall, you know?
You've got a picture of what you want it to be EXACTLY like (and can I say, I don't blame you, it's gorgeous). I'm not a designer or space expert. It looks like the range top in the photo is 36" and the full range she shows in her elevations is 30" is that right? Could it affect the dimensions she's using?
Anyway, I have a hood under a short upper. Even I can visualize how you'd build around it to make it look like your photo. I don't see why it's such a big freaking deal for a designer to pull this off. It's just panels and molding and little corbels, right?
Some really budget lines don't have the components to be able to do what you're asking. What line are you designing in? Is it Chinese? Or is the price only coming in around 9K for the whole kitchen? That would be a warning sign that you're not in the right cabinet line.
At any rate, if that were the case, she should have communicated that to you and let you choose to go up to a more expensive line that does offer the components to build the hood that you are asking for. Some lines would actually have what you're asking for as a pre-designed component, while others would have the parts and pieces for the designer to put together. I could do either, in any of my lines that I retail. Even the budget line.
I assure you, this hood is not going to be falling off the wall. First of all, it's connected to the wall at the rear, like all wall cabinets. Second, it's also connected to the wall cabinets at each side, which provide additional support. You can see that there is no ceiling there, but in some homes where the cabinets would go to the ceiling, there's an additional attachment point. This is from my Kemper line, and is in Alder with a Black Forest finish. It includes the liner, which is designed for them and fits like a hand in a glove into the wood hood. It's around 4-5K for the entire structure (depending on doorstyle and finish) complete with the insert, shelf and corbels. And it was very easy for my installer to install.
You need to sever this relationship.
Live Wire we are in the masterpiece line of Merillat. It should have thus option if it is going to claim to be semi custom. That's what makes it so frustrating.
The picture you just shared is EXACTLY what I want, except trade the wall ovens for my fridge.
You don't happen to work in Virginia, do you? :-)
Merrilat=Kraftmaid. I used to work in a showroom with KM, and designed several similar hoods in it. It shouldn't be a problem doing what you're asking about. It's not the cabinet line. It's the designer. Or, it's her installer. They don't have what you want "ready made" in the spec book, so perhaps she's just not experienced enough in how to pull the parts apart and put them together as a "hood" because her installer won't do it.
You're not going to get what you want with this designer. If she's the only one there, you may need to explore going elsewhere. I'm not sure how that will work with your builder, as his contract may be with that showroom and severing it may prove to be sticky. You've got some intense discussions ahead of you. You might want to look at your contract and see what it says about choosing something other than what the builder offers. There's usually a piddly allowance amount credited to you if you do that, and that's if that's allowed. After you read your contract, you may want to consult the attorney that you used to vet it before you signed. The builder may be easy to work with and let you go where you want, but, it's best to be prepared by knowing what your contract actually allows you to do.
This post was edited by live_wire_oak on Sat, Sep 14, 13 at 9:31
" Is it too late to just can this whole thing and demand that we go with another line of cabinets."
No it's not, until you order. Keep in mind many dealers select cabinet lines to fit a price point and don't always have more than one line at a price.
You may have to go to a slightly more expensive line. But often the difference in price between lines often shrinks if there is much going on in the kitchen. Don't just ask "how much more would this be" and accept a percentage for an answer-better to say "can you price this in...(a line that has the hood you want) to find out the real difference and see if you can live with it.
Up to just about 48" many brands will make that front with two panels not three. Some brands allow you to specify that- Merrilat won't.
I took a quick look at an old Kraftmaid spec book to get an idea of what might be available to fudge this (see below) They used to be practically identical but appear to have changed. I noticed that KM the front of what you are looking for BUT not as a complete hood and specifies that it must be supported since it is a front. That could be used as noted below.
To get what you want in a line that does not offer the hood you need what I call "a chicken salad sandwich" (see the diner scene in the movie 5 easy pieces)-
There are two wasy to do it. In either case check with installer and have KD work out the parts and construction or in tandem with the installer- so you have to ask if they will do this:
1-it can be made from parts, using pocket hole screws and blocking.
You would need:
- a wainscott panel for the front- bottom rail will be 6 3/4" and can't be changed. It does not appear that they will finish the ends or the back but I don't know- keep it in mind. Finished ends will make a big difference in the look.
- looks like they don't offer 3/4 ply so you would have to order veneer shelves for a matching interior for the sides and bottom. You may be able to specify the depth- those will be finished both sides which helps.
-something to finish edges that don't come that way- can be a real issue on the front.
-something for the shelf and some corbels, this should be easy
Method 2-less work for installer
-Order a wall cabinet, increased depth, matching interior, delete doors, add a wainscott panel, you will need something to finish the bottom edges of the cabinet.
-a wainscott panel, something to trim unfinished edges, shelf corbels
Now Kmaid does increased depth- If merrilat doesn't but does decreased depth - order a base cabinet with a flush toe- veneer interior, delete doors- hopefully you can control the height.
I avoid "chicken salad sanwiches" this comlicated nowadays and you may be running into that kind of resistance. OR your installer may not want to deal with it. I would go this way only as a last resort and in this case would refuse.... But I have enough lines that allow me to be that way. If I can't do what you want in this then we can do it in that- it may cost a little more but not usually much and you get a better cabinet. (In this particular case I could get this hood at every price point I have though)
In the price point your at of wha I have some information on... Showplace and Elmwood both have something close that can be modified to exactly what you want (I sell these so am certain), Medallion looks to have something close and you "might" be able to get it configured, looks like Wellborn is an option, I would think that Shiloh is worth a shot.
Any brand that offers two tiers, gotten more common, would allow you to do the bulk in the lower price range and the hood in the upper tier.
At the next price point up - typically estimated to be a15-25% jump you can certainly find exactly what you want. But as noted earlier sometimes the difference is less 5-10%- in rare cases the price can be the same- recently I did a master bath where the next line up did what I wanted and cost 10% less ($300)
Just to echo what Jakuvall is saying above, and what I edited my above response to include. What you want doesn't come as a pre done component from the Merrilat line. It involves ordering parts and putting it together. Which some installers really hate doing. And some designers hate doing as well, because they've been burned by having installers screw it up. And, it's more expensive to do in parts and pieces with extra installation charges than it would be to find a line that offered what you needed as a pre made component.
If you like the Kemper hood that I used above, then Diamond, Thomasville, and Schrock, as well as as Dynasty/Embassy/Omega should be able to get you the exact same look in a painted finish. If you are just doing a plain shaker look, some of the more expensive lines can actually be cheaper when it comes down to getting what you want than doing a bunch of alterations in a less expensive line.
With what LWO listed you now have 10 lines to pick from.
Link to the "diner scene" in case you haven't seen it. Even if you have it might make you feel better to see what Jack Nickolsen goes through to try and get some toast:)
Here is a link that might be useful: toast with my omelet please
I'm very deeply grateful that you guys have spent your Saturday mornings researching this and giving me options. It is so generous of you to share your expertise and help me manage my stress.
It makes sense to me that the "chicken sandwich" setup would be more work and have greater risks. I don't really want to patch something together that may or may not look good in the end.
I think you are right, I have some tough conversations ahead. Time to put on my big girl pants and get this resolved!
Getting serious about going to a different showroom and just want to be armed with as much information as possible. Do I need to expect Medallion cabinets to cost more than Merillat Masterpiece? I have located a showroom in my town that carries Medallion. I have looked through the Medallion website enough to tknow that they definitely can do what I want. Now I just need to know whether we should start eating hot dogs and baked beans for the next six months to pay for them! :)
And how would they compare to Omega Dynasty (which I have already gotten a quote from in an earlier fit of frustration!)?
In an effort to thoroughly explore all options you should take a look at Schuler. Schuler offers variations of the hood style you are after and overall are a solid cabinet that is a good value.
As far as Medallion pricing goes it depends which line you are in, they offer three or four different line depending upon how you look at it. Silverline is their lowest priced option, Designer/Designer Gold is their mid-range option and the Platinum Line is their flagship offering. Before comparing prices I would look at the specific line and what comes standard with each line.
Yes they are all Elkay companies. I said Schuler because depending upon region and vendors swfr may be able to get a better deal on the same product in the "Schuler" line. It sounds as if swfr already has the primary design aspect squared away so in an effort to make sure swfr wasn't eating beans and dogs for the next six months I wanted to make sure she knew all of the options with that line. If swfr is open to other cabinet companies we can all recommend a few of them as well.
Medallion/Schuler should be a little more than Kraftmaid/Merrilat. It all depends on which doorstyle you pick, and what overlay. And that goes for any of the cabinet lines. I've done quotes in Dynasty that were actually less expensive (and more customizable) than in Kemper. When using a wood hood, all were less than KM/M when you counted the labor for all of the custom fieldwork assembly.
I wonder if it would be possible to find a contractor who would put the hood in after you close--and then you get your builder to supply the parts, as per your contract.
I can't imagine they can't securely attach a heavy hood to a wall, in NEW construction. And the cabinets themselves aren't going to be any heavier than plain ones; only the hood is what might make it heavier.
Just an update: I am excited to report that the local showroom that carries Medallion came in close to $5K UNDER the Merillat Masterpiece quote! I am working now on making this switch. Not only that, but they have EXACTLY what I want, put together a full set of drawings based on my sketches and a quote in less than 24 hours, and are lovely to deal with!
Check out what they can do:
It's a total breath of fresh air around here. A heartfelt thank you goes out to all of you for your advice on pursuing this dream kitchen, even when I felt like it was impossible.
I am glad you were firm in your desire to get what you deserved. I am not big on clichés however I do believe that if the will exists there is a way to make your vision a reality. Job well done and I wish you the best throughout the rest of the process.
Lovely first cut! My only suggestion is to see if you can re-size the upper cabinets to eliminate the very narrow ones on the ends. I can tell you from experience that a 12" cabinet is almost more trouble than it's worth (I had 3 of them in my old kitchen).
Glad you're getting the show back on the road!
The rug just got pulled out from under me. I am so frustrated. Just this evening I heard back from someone at the construction company and this is what they had to say in response to me telling them that I was going to switch to Medallion:
I am afraid that this not a real possibility as we have a commitment with ____ (cabinet company) to give them all of our work as they won the bid to service our cabinetry needs. As you can also see, the price difference you thought was there is actually very much closer, with ______ actually being a percentage less. I hope you understand that we must honor our commitment with _____ as we hold our suppliers and subcontractors to honor theirs.
So my math was off because the actual cabinetry allowance is even lower than the embarrassingly low number that I thought it was!!! I'm so mad there might be smoke coming out of my ears.
Ask them to provide you with a possible solution to your problem. You understand their need to honor their commitment to the cabinet supplier but you also understand your right to get what you deserve as a paying customer. Depending upon your contract their may be penalties but in the end this is your house and as I said earlier where there is a will there is a way.
This post was edited by SaltLife631 on Fri, Sep 20, 13 at 21:32
Feel for you! Disappointing that it takes this for them to respond and then they come back with that? Exhausting and frustrating no doubt. They certainly do need to pose a solution to the problem. Hang in there and don't settle for a design that you do not like!
I'm so sorry to hear this, what a frustrating experience.
You've got more work ahead to get this figured out, but you are doing a terrific job and it will be worth all the hassle in the end! Hang in there, you can do this in a way that is fair to all concerned and gets you a gorgeous kitchen.
If you have to honor the contract...why not leave the hood area blank, buy extra stain or paint from the cabinet company and simply order the hood you want unfinished? Even if you hired another installer to put up the hood components, it would be worth it.
Oh good grief! They can't order a refrigerator wall cabinet, add matching interior and flush finished sides (or a skin), reduce the depth, and attach a straight valance around the bottom and some trim, put on a shelf and a couple of corbels on the valance? Then put in a blower unit?
They're complete morons. Both the KD and the contractor. I don't know what type of builder grade crap they're used to churning out, but that's an easy put together. IF they've got an installer than can figure out how to put together Tinker Toys.
If they can't do that, then it may be time to change builders entirely.
I just wanted to post a picture of my kitchen which is similar...and has a Thermador 36" stove plus at 42" hood. We used as few number of cabinets as possible since it is such a large space. Maybe this will help you visualize the space. Still not finished, but closer than ever. THe dimensions are 12' x 22'.
Check out annsch as she has a similar kitchen as well.
Good luck with the builder and KD.
Well, I'm back for one more update: I did it! I convinced the builder to let me go with the better cabinet company. I pushed fairly hard on them to make them realize that this was the right decision for us and they called a meeting this afternoon. I figured they were either trying to let me down easy with a firm final NO, or they were finally going to allow me to go ahead with what I preferred, so I went into the meeting feeling rather nervous. But all that matters is that they are willing to make the change and work with my choices. I am THRILLED.
And I owe a lot of it to the strength and commitment that all of you made me feel with your advice and reactions. It really fueled my fire and made it possible for me to keep pressuring them. I am *SO* glad that this is over! And now I just want it all to get built and look as beautiful as it is in my imagination. :)
I've been following this post from the beginning. I reread the whole thing tonight. It's the perfect example of how great this forum is. You posted your plan, got some feedback you didn't really like, realized you didn't like the plan, got an unbelievable amount of detailed information & advice from the generous professionals & nonprofessionals, put on your "big girl pants", fought for what you wanted and got it!
Romy, I totally agree. I'm still kind of blown away by how much help I've received from total strangers. I think the internet and social media gets stuck a bad rap because of all the harm it can do, but gw is an example of just how right it can go! I think it is so cool how everyone comes together to help figure out the best possible outcome, based on the OP's situation. And the advice is so personalized and honest. Because this kitchen is going to be a huge part of my life for a very long time, the gift everyone has given me in working so hard and so long on this is tremendous. I wish I could thank everyone personally.
Hi everyone,
After being on here so much and getting so much feedback, it feels weird to not be around much. Since we are past the planning stage and aren't yet at the install phase, I am just biding my time. But I thought I would pop in and say hello and share a picture that I took of our kitchen as it currently stands. They are busy framing the whole house and it is SO FUN to go stand in the kitchen and imagine everything in the space.
I haven't forgotten about you and promise I'll be back with updates as we go, but the cabinets are getting ordered as soon as the KD can get out to measure (tomorrow!) and before you know it I think we'll start seeing it become a reality!
Thanks for this update, I'll look forward to seeing more. Are *all* your decisions made? Faucets, sinks, water filtration, garbage disposals, lights, stools, paint color, pulls/knobs, drawer organization.....broom? You deserve a little rest after your big hood battle, but there may be more decisions ahead, and they are more fun when you have an abundance of time.
Kksmama - I read your broom comment, cracked me up too until I went to the Nessentials website to finally order my split horsehair "sweeps like butter" broom and it is no longer on their website. I'll be calling them tomorrow.
Hopefully, they are just temporarily out of stock.
kksmama is so right - there are a million decisions to be made! I had the luxury of being able to concentrate on one thing at a time - I obsessed over sinks for a couple of weeks, until I found the perfect one; then I looked at about a million faucets. I thought pulls would be easy - Ha!
Swfr, have you picked out all your accessories? Carefully laid out what is going to go where in the new kitchen? I had a 3-page list of what was going in every cabinet and drawer - it was so convenient, when it was finally time to put things away, to know exactly where most things were going to go.
ohhhh - I was hopping on here thinking WOW it's already done, it can't be! Scrolling down for pics like a kid at Christmas time, lol! I think my finger has a cramp in it...and alas - no it cannot be. It is too soon.
Not to say that what you've got going there with the framing is anything less than fabulous (because it IS awesome). Just saying I thought there might be a cabinet in there somewhere. :)
Can't wait for more updates, keep them coming. Happy measuring today.
I figured it was time for another update: my cabinets are getting delivered tomorrow! I feel like Christmas is coming early!!!! They won't start installing until Monday but Santa is bringing me boxes and boxes of beautiful cabinetry on his sleigh tomorrow. :)
I knew you fellow TKOs would understand my excitement-- it has been such a long time coming and now I'm almost to the point of my dreams really taking shape in front of my eyes. I can hardly sleep.
I'll be sure to post pictures of the process along the way. I've been on a hiatus from here because I just didn't have any kitchen decisions to make-- but I'm sure that soon I'll be back on here obsessively as cabinets/counters/BS goes in. Hooray! I've missed it here. :)
Hello again-- Here are some pictures! We're about 1 day into installation and all of the base cabinets are in place. So far, so good!
A little bit of explanation:
The opening on the window wall will be the dishwasher and the sink will be to the left of it (centered there on the window.)
The prep sink will be where the tool box is.
The stove is the center opening on the long wall and the fridge is way over to the left.
The plywood you see behind the cabinets on the long wall is a "knee wall" that will be a 4" ledge just above the counter.
I am in love with the Medallion cabinetry. It all looks so gorgeous. We went with the Merrilat cabinets in the bathrooms and laundry room and there is a real contrast in quality-- and I haven't even used them yet! :)
Tomorrow the wall cabinets go up with the hood that I worked so hard to get. I will be sure to come back with more pics.
Once again, I owe so many of you thanks. I feel like the happiness I am enjoying now is due to all the lovely folks at GW!!
So happy for you, and looking forward to further updates! Before your counters are installed, consider putting a time capsule in any dead space you have. I put a jar with some details of our remodel including costs; I figure that it will be a decade or several before that jar is discovered and it will be interesting to the then owners (or my own elderly self).
I see lots of beautiful drawers & great windows. Thanks for the pics.
Kksmama, no these holidays were spent living with my father and working in a gorgeous kitchen that my mother designed. I was happy to be here (where we've been living while our new home is built) because I miss her terribly during the holidays and making our big family meals in her kitchen makes me feel closer to her. Our holidays were great, but not yet in our new home. We close in three weeks so everything is in finishing stages. It won't be long before I can do a total reveal!
We went by the house yesterday and when I went to turn on my camera I found the battery was dead, which was SUCH a bummer because the counters have just been installed. That was the part I was really nervous about after seeing all of the seam issues here on GW. But they (caesarstone piatra grey on perimeter and frosty carrina on the island) are just how I wanted them and having the counters and sinks installed (plus my GE cafe range and KE dishwasher) makes it look almost ready! All I need now is for them to install the fridge, the backsplash, paint the walls, and take the protective covering off of everything. Hip hip hooray!
So today I had my camera with me but there was a big mess all over the kitchen. The backsplash has just been installed and was left to dry before they grout it. And all of the protective cardboard is still on about half of the cabinets. Plus there is a fine layer of dust EVERYWHERE. All this is to say that the kitchen isn't quite "camera ready" but I did take a picture to show a bit of counter, a bit of backsplash, and the great view I'll have while washing dishes. You can also see the 4" ledge that I had them build into the wall where the range is-- both for a little visual interest and as a place where I can put little jars/oils/etc. I'll show it better in future pictures, but for now I'll just say that it seems like a great use of the 4" strip that they are usually trying to put the backsplash wall that I'm really not so fond of.
Two weeks until the entire house is promised to be done! WOOT! I can't believe this process is almost over...
More pictures are here! The house is almost done and things are starting to get cleaned up. Now it is very easy to see the countertops (although I wish I had cleared all of the junk off of them before taking these photos.) And you can see the total kitchen-- minus the fridge and microwave in their little nooks. I'll do a true reveal thread once it is completely functional, but for now this thread will have my sneak peek reveal. :)
The BS is grouted and all is in order. This picture shows the hood that started this whole thread in all it's glory. I feel like I should carve "GW" in the hood somewhere as a testament to how this website made it possible. :)
A closeup of the backsplash. Daltile Modern Dimensions subway 4 1/4" x 12 3/4". And the ledge we built into the wall behind the range run. The stove is the GE cafe dual fuel range with baking drawer.
The view from the dining room. I want to change that outlet cover to match the island because it's an eyesore right now.
A view from the pantry of the entire kitchen. The counters are Caesarstone piatra grey on the perimeter and frosty carrina on the island. Obviously missing the barstools-- if anyone has an opinion about what those should be, please speak up!
That's it. I close with one last huge THANK YOU. There are a few of you who were helpful from the moment I first appeared on here with a dysfunctional floorplan right up until I figured out how to get exactly what I wanted. You know who you are and please know that I am sending so much sincere love and appreciation your way.
I hope that people stumble across this thread and read it and realize the power that GW can have with it's collective wisdom and creative and collaborative problem solving. I keep thinking that if I had let my hurt feelings from people critiquing my original floorplan convince me to stay off of GW, my whole first floor and kitchen would be different. Thank goodness I decided to put on my big girl pants and stick around for the long haul!!
Everything looks perfect! What a sunny, bright, happy looking kitchen. The hood, of course, looks great. Love your bigger subway tiles & the ledge. I wasn't one of the creative but I really enjoyed taking the journey with you & was very impressed with your big girl pants.


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"Girlfriends" featured Jill Marie Jones, Tracee Ellis Ross, Golden Brooks and Persia White.
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Returning vet
Now that Sylvester Stallone has successfully brought "Rocky" to Broadway, he may want to consider adding tunes to 1982's "Rambo: First Blood," one of his leanest and meanest movies. Can't wait to hear John Rambo's version of "I Shot the Sheriff." 7 p.m. CMT
Soul sisters
One of the great things about cable TV is that it provides an opportunity to discover shows long after they've been canceled. Put "Girlfriends" in that column. Few sitcoms have done a better job of exploring what friendships between women are really like. 7 p.m. Centric
Swan song
There's not much compelling reason to watch "Two and a Half Men" these days (actually, was there ever?), but it might be fun to see Ashton Kutcher make goo-goo eyes with guest star Mila Kunis, his real-life fiancée. The only thing that could make this better is if Demi Moore stops by to borrow a cup of sugar. 8 p.m., WCCO, Ch. 4
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Junior Member
Well.......its better than the darius week.
Senior Member
oh hi soraka
Incoming free blitzcrank week
Although I do not like this free week rotation, I think people that are complaining about the lower-costing champions should really stop. You really have to look at it from a beginner's standpoint, someone that just signed up for the game. Champions that cost less tend to be easier to pick-up and play than the 6300's. I understand that a few 6300's are very easy to play, but (IMO) Riot wants to cater towards the newer players so that they don't quit the game because they can't hit one Q with Lee Sin and just keep expanding their player-base.
tl;dr Riot probably wants newer players to have an easier time learning the game by having easier (and usually lower priced) champions so that its amount of players keeps rising.
So at what time does the new rotation start?
if trundle was in this free week it will definitely be a troll rotation
Grim Ska
Fall Of Dawn
Worst week yet lol
So for an entire week, I'm not playing bot
blitz is the only good thing in the list.. mf free again..tf was free couple of weeks back.. still waiting for some champs like trundle karma nautilus...
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Catrin Griffiths
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commercial property for rent or lease in Stafford (TX), Industrial Space For Lease.
Stafford commercial real estate for lease, rent, and leased investments.
Find Stafford industrial buildings for lease, retail rentals, & Stafford shops. Locate a Stafford warehouse lease and any real estate for lease / investment, including industrial properties to rent and sale.
Any Stafford commercial lease is simply an agreement between the parties that sets out the parameters for the business arrangement. The potential for future adversity is more than real if the terms are not fully understood and considered at the time of signing. A standard lease will have been prepared that will naturally protect the landlords interest in most eventualities. A successful leasing agreement should reflect the issues faced by both landlord and tenant and should consider the needs and requirements of each party.
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World's Largest Aftermarket Motorcycle Parts and Accessories Superstore!
Input the part number and quantity to add a part directly to your cart.
Select your motorcycle to guarantee fitment! Select A Motorcycle
Sale Price: $35.96 Regularly: $39.99
Gold Club Price: What's This? $35.96
J&P Part: 450-376
This product has an attached note. View Product Note
This product was proudly made in the USA
Fitment Note: For Vance & Hines Sideshots and Shortshots Staggered.
Select your motorcycle to guarantee fitment! Select A Motorcycle
Fitment Note: For Vance & Hines Sideshots and Shortshots Staggered.
|Dyna Fat Bob CVO FXDFSE : 2009
|Dyna Fat Bob CVO FXDFSE2 : 2010
|Dyna Fat Bob FXDF : 2008–2015
|Dyna Low Rider Convertible FXDS-CONV : 1994–2000
|Dyna Low Rider EFI FXDLI : 2005–2006
|Dyna Low Rider FXDL : 1993–2005, 2007–2015
|Dyna Street Bob EFI FXDBI : 2006
|Dyna Street Bob FXDB : 2007–2015
|Dyna Street Bob FXDBP : 2013–2014
|Dyna Super Glide 35th Anniversary EFI FXDI35 : 2006
|Dyna Super Glide Custom Anniversary FXDC : 2013
|Dyna Super Glide Custom EFI FXDCI : 2005–2006
|Dyna Super Glide Custom FXDC : 1992, 2005, 2007–2014
|Dyna Super Glide CVO FXDSE : 2007
|Dyna Super Glide CVO FXDSE2 : 2008
|Dyna Super Glide EFI FXDI : 2005–2006
|Dyna Super Glide FXD : 1995–2005, 2007–2010
|Dyna Super Glide Police FXDP : 2004
|Dyna Super Glide Sport EFI FXDXI : 2005
|Dyna Super Glide Sport FXDX : 1999–2005
|Dyna Super Glide Sturgis FXDB-S : 1991
|Dyna Super Glide T-Sport FXDXT : 2001–2003
|Dyna Wide Glide CVO FXDWG3 : 2002
|Dyna Wide Glide EFI FXDWGI : 2005–2006
|Dyna Wide Glide FXDWG : 1993–2005, 2007–2008, 2010–2015
|Softail Bad Boy FXSTSB : 1995–1997
|Softail Blackline FXS : 2011–2013
|Softail Convertible CVO FLSTSE : 2010
|Softail Convertible CVO FLSTSE2 : 2011
|Softail Convertible CVO FLSTSE3 : 2012
|Softail Cross Bones FLSTSB : 2008–2011
|Softail Custom FXSTC : 1986–1999, 2007–2010
|Softail Deluxe CVO FLSTNSE : 2014–2015
|Softail Deluxe EFI FLSTNI : 2005–2006
|Softail Deluxe FLSTN : 2006–2015
|Softail Deuce CVO FXSTDSE : 2003
|Softail Deuce CVO FXSTDSE2 : 2004
|Softail Deuce EFI FXSTDI : 2001–2006
|Softail Deuce FXSTD : 2000–2007
|Softail Fat Boy Anniversary FLSTF : 2013
|Softail Fat Boy CVO FLSTFSE : 2005
|Softail Fat Boy CVO FLSTFSE2 : 2006
|Softail Fat Boy EFI FLSTFI : 2001–2006
|Softail Fat Boy FLSTF : 1990–2015
|Softail Fat Boy Lo Anniversary FLSTFB : 2013
|Softail Fat Boy Lo FLSTFB : 2010–2015
|Softail Heritage Classic Anniversary FLSTC : 2013
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|Softail Heritage Classic FLSTC : 1987–2015
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|Softail Heritage Springer Classic EFI FLSTSCI : 2005–2006
|Softail Heritage Springer Classic FLSTSC : 2005–2007
|Softail Heritage Springer EFI FLSTSI : 2001–2003
|Softail Heritage Springer FLSTS : 1997–2003
|Softail Night Train EFI FXSTBI : 2001–2006
|Softail Night Train FXSTB : 1998–2009
|Softail Nostalgia FLSTN : 1993–1996
|Softail Slim FLS : 2012–2015
|Softail Springer CVO FXSTSSE : 2007
|Softail Springer CVO FXSTSSE2 : 2008
|Softail Springer EFI FXSTSI : 2001–2006
|Softail Springer FXSTS : 1988–2006
|Softail Standard EFI FXSTI : 2001–2006
|Softail Standard FXST : 1986–1990, 1999–2015
|Sportster 1200 50th Anniversary XL50 : 2007
|Sportster 1200 Custom Anniversary XL1200C : 2013
|Sportster 1200 Custom XL1200C : 2004–2015
|Sportster 1200 Custom XL1200CA : 2013–2015
|Sportster 1200 Custom XL1200CB : 2012–2015
|Sportster 1200 Custom XL1200CP : 2012–2015
|Sportster 1200 Custom XLH1200C : 1999–2003
|Sportster 1200 Forty-Eight XL1200X : 2010–2015
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|Sportster 1200 Nightster XL1200N : 2007–2012
|Sportster 1200 Roadster XL1200R : 2004–2009
|Sportster 1200 Seventy-Two XL1200V : 2012–2015
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|Sportster 1200 Standard XLH1200 : 1999–2003
|Sportster 1200 SuperLow XL1200T : 2014–2015
|Sportster 883 Custom XL883C : 2004–2010
|Sportster 883 Custom XLH883C : 1999–2003
|Sportster 883 Hugger XLH883 : 1999–2003
|Sportster 883 Iron XL883N : 2009–2015
|Sportster 883 Low XL883L : 2005–2010
|Sportster 883 Roadster XL883R : 2005–2012, 2014–2015
|Sportster 883 Roadster XLH883R : 2002–2003
|Sportster 883 Standard XL883 : 2004–2009
|Sportster 883 Standard XLH883 : 1999–2003
|Sportster 883 SuperLow XL883L : 2011–2015
Brian.warrener Posted:
Glad to help out
apique_14 Posted:
Fitted to Iron 883's ShortShots with big sucker K&N air filter. It meet the purpose to reduce a bit of loudness during idle. Now it is more neighbourhood friendly and i can hear wind sound during riding. Why 4 star. This is because i prefer sound of the shortshot standard baffle but need to sacrifice due to neighbourhood.Performance wise i feel a bit increase in acceleration. This is based on feel and not by measurement of any devices. Installation wise. I just remove the shield while the baffle i pull out using long nose pliers. Expose quiet baffle fibreglass i wrap it with sellotape to ease the installation. Require to buy two units to complete installation.
Y2jwc82 Posted:
Helps add a great sound to the V and H shortshots. Helps to make the bike heard with a good sound, not that ear shattering loudness that tends to annoy people
QTCDub86 Posted:
Just enough, still has great sound but took the edge off.
xWHIRLYx Posted:
J&P says they wont work on 08 HD. ROCKER but they do and sound great.
GERORO Posted:
great quality.easy install
richthib Posted:
This is just what my wife wanted. They quieted her Short Shots just enough to make it more pleasant to the ears and the sound has taken on a more "Harley" tone without the sharp crackle. I retuned the FuelPak with new numbers supplied by V&H and the bike runs and performs perfectly. It seems to pull stronger in the middle.
Ggregory Posted:
Baffles came really fast. A little hard to install due to tight fit but they work great. Quieted down the pipes just enough!
roger246 Posted:
order was shipped in a timely manner, arrived in good condition and fit properly. expect to continue to order from J&P CYCLES in the future.
airman1952 Posted:
Just what I needed to tone down the short shots on my Sportster. It still left me with some growl when you get on it.
Reecec78 Posted:
definitely recommend these on the short shots.. sound great
EyeScar Posted:
Orderd this baffle for the shortys. great improvement, it should be the stock baffle in the first place (thats a V&H issue) Great dealing with J&P. It would be 5 star except I did see it for less $ on a few sites. Keep up the good work Thanks EyeScar
fboyd Posted:
The baffles made a big difference in the sound - nice Harley rumble without the harshness. Love the sound. Bike runs better and has more torque. Carb had not been jetted by the previous owner.
rocker3418 Posted:
Easy to install and still has a great sound!
JimiB1265 Posted:
Installed these baffles into V&H sideshots. Gave the bike a much better sound. The best benefit was that it gave these short pipes alot more back pressure. Now I have more low end torque. Definitely recommend these.
TRex2651 Posted:
quiet is the right word..just what i was looking for
terryjz Posted:
Very good, much lower noise after easy installation.
tiggamcgee Posted:
Worked perfectly. Took the harsh sound out from original baffles but still give plenty of noise on acceleration.
rzedwards Posted:
Love this baffle. Has made a nice deep tone to exhaust. Easy to install. Came without instructions but fairly self-explanatory.
mbtrice Posted:
Great sound, easy install!
prattbratt Posted:
I like the sound coming out of the pipes with these baffles. Supposedly they make the tone deeper. I've never not used them, so I can't compare the sound to the regular baffles or without baffles. The first time you use it, there is a funny smell as the scotch tape holding the insulation together burns off, but no problems after that.
crossbones666 Posted:
Didnt like the standard baffles that came with the shortshots. Installed the quiet baffles. Much much better. The quiet baffles have a very good, proformance sound.
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Note: Please see U.S. EPA and your respective state and local regulations to confirm noise and emission compliance.Important Exhaust Notes:• Note: With any new exhaust, we recommend changes to carburetor jetting or use of an aftermarket fuel injection control module.• There is no warranty on exhaust pipes and mufflers with regard to any discoloration. Blueing is caused by tuning characteristics, cam timing, carburetor jetting, overheating, etc. and is not caused by defective manufacturing. No refunds on exhaust pipes once motorcycle is started unless there's a manufacturer's defect.• Flanges and retaining rings are not included with most aftermarket exhaust for 1984-2013 Evolution and Twin Cam models. Re-use your existing hardware, or purchase replacement hardware.
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text:
What's up with all the 1980s love currently spilling out of multiplexes?
Sure, Hollywood and marketers of all sorts have long mined nostalgia as a powerful enticement tool in the marketplace. But is 20 years enough time to generate sufficient yearning for a period whose mainstream culture is best represented by the rise of stupid action movies and/or creatively bankrupt sequels (see the career of Sylvester Stallone for examples of both), acutely disposable Pop music (see everything from Hair Metal to Milli Vanilli), ludicrous clothes (see Miami Vice) and the presence of a two-term president whose nefarious policies laid the groundwork for our current economic meltdown?
The amusing, curiously lo-fi comedic diversion known as Hot Tub Time Machine revisits a moment in time not known for its significant cultural contributions (especially on a mainstream level). Who better, then, to appear in a movie that looks back with a nostalgic eye to the 1980s than Crispin Glover, one of the great, under-appreciated oddballs of that or any era?
It seems the director behind such crass mainstream entertainments as The Rock, Armageddon, Pearl Harborand the Transformers films — the third of which, subtitled Dark of the Moon, opens today — has no shame when it comes to his particular brand of slam-bam cinema. Bay specializes in disaster movies, the kind of stories where nothing less than the entirety of civilization hangs in the balance. His CGI-driven, ADD-addled films revel in big explosions, big visual flourishes and big emotions. Subtle he is not.
In 2008 there was Definitely, Maybe. Last year, there were Confessions of a Shopoholic. And now, with only six days left before Valentine's Day is actually upon us, a movie baring the same name is set to hit theaters.
Valentine's Day, this year's most blatant bid for romantically charged girls to drag their boyfriends down to the theater, and spend gobs of money to found out whether or not Ashton Kutcher, Julia Roberts, and a fistful of other stars will live happily ever after. For anyone with a remotely decent sense of cinematic taste, this would be something to avoid. And yet, in the deep recesses of my otherwise logical brain, there lives a tiny little blob of girly power that screams, "Go see this movie!"
What does it say when Golden Globes' host Ricky Gervais is getting more post-show attention than the night's winners (or January Jones' gravity-defying dress)? Sure, Gervais' sharp-tongued shots at various targets — from the easy (Charlie Sheen, Robert Downey Jr. and Mel Gibson) to the slightly less so (Steve Carell, Tim Allen and God) — were often insensitive and sometimes crass, but none of them were necessarily untruthful or even far from what most viewers would say about each recipient.
A teaser trailer of Quentin Tarantino's Inglourious Basterds, which is still in production, has made its way to cyberspace. It's being billed as his ensemble war flick/spaghetti western, and if the tone of this teaser is any indication, look for Basterds to lean toward the genre-pillaging frivolity of Death Proof and the Kill Bill films. (Personally, I was hoping for a return to Tarantino's more emotionally satisfying heyday, especially the underrated Jackie Brown.)
The post-holiday/awards season dumping ground is upon us — just two films hit theaters this week, neither of which are likely to pique the interest of more discerning moviegoers.
The key word there is "good," an adjective that doesn't often describe modern summer movies, most of which are lowest-common-denominator products laden with special effects instead of interesting characters. We're now lucky if one or two transcend mediocrity each summer — last year Toy Story 3 and Inception were the big exceptions.
A trio of "event" screenings boosts this week's mixed bag of new releases (of which Bong Joon-Ho's Hitchcockian thriller, The Mother, is the clear winner).
There is a story embedded in this review. Maybe, in fact, this isn't a film review at all, just a story, several stories, like little assignations – drawing a reference there to a Joyce Carol Oates collection of short stories that triggered in me a desire, for the first time in my adult life right after college, to pick up the proverbial pen and write. The Assignation assembled pieces that were brief, sometime no more than a paragraph long, but even the shortest of the shorts told so much, too much about their subjects.
And that is what Sarah Polley, the Canadian actress and now writer-director, whose documentary Stories We Tell is ostensibly the focus or subject here, has done; she has spun the most amazing and haunting of stories about (and with the assistance of) her family and a secret that had remained unspoken for so long among them. It seems Polley's mother Diane, an actress and later a casting director in Toronto, married Michael Polley, an actor and writer, had three children – Sarah being the third – but this bright and passionate woman found herself seeking a love that matched her own. Failing to do so within her marriage, she stumbled headlong into an affair, while working on a play in Montreal, which produced Sarah.
Diane and Michael resumed marriage life after the end of the show and raised Sarah together until Diane's early death in the late 1980s. Sarah was approximately 11 years old and left to grow up in the loving comfort of Michael Polley, but thanks to a series of family jokes about her parentage, Sarah, began a quest to discover the truth about her father. Stories We Tell, built on the framework of frank interviews with her siblings and Michael, along with extended family, friends, and fellow artists from those early days, captures her telling of this story of the surprising revelation and its impact on everyone involved.
What is the story, her story, but a collection of memories, fragmented perspectives on the truth? It is a thing of intriguing beauty to watch unfold, raw and honest, but always, in every moment, calling into question, the notion, the very idea of truth. What is the truth?
No one lies; they tell what they can, from their point of view, but the truth, as we find out, is not something that one person can know, not without being privy to all other points of view. And when we tell our own stories, we are never as truthful as we might hope or desire.
But what Sarah has done is wrestle with the impossible. Her aim was to corral as many angles as possible, to tell the truth – the whole truth and nothing but. Although for all her effort, Stories We Tell falls short, in two ways.
We discover, along with Sarah, who her biological father is beyond a shadow of a doubt (thanks to DNA testing), and she works in not only his perspective but also that of his daughter from another relationship – another half-sister for Sarah who already has half siblings (a brother and sister) from Diane's marriage prior to her union with Michael as well as another half-brother & sister set from Michael. It is all rather confusing to document here, but the film grants each one of them their own time to speak and breath as more than mere characters before us.
But we never hear from Diane. She is the hole at the center of things, the voiceless presence that looms large, so large that the film nearly tricks us into believing that we have heard from her. We want to and our desire is so strong that we, along with Sarah maybe, convince ourselves that we have her from her. There are so many images – photos and video – of Diane that dance before us and tease us with thousands of unspoken words.
And in the same way, it could be argued that we never get Sarah's real story either. Her meticulous focus on gathering so much from so many allows her to disappear. I don't believe that was her intention, but still, it is the result.
How do we tell our own stories?
I have returned, again and again, to a quote from Roger Ebert's memoir Life, Itself, which I picked up about six months ago and read before his death. Speaking of advice he received once he took on the assignment of covering film, by way of Esquire critic Dwight McDonald and Pauline Kael: "I go into the movie, I watch it, and I ask myself what happened to me."
What happened to me, while watching Stories We Tell?
I found it difficult to separate from the story, which for me, was a focus on fathers and fatherhood. Like Sarah Polley, I grew up without knowing my biological father. That's not quite true. Unlike Sarah, I knew who he was, but he wasn't involved in my life and there were periods when I considered seeking him out. There have always been people close to me who knew where he was and would have assisted me in the search, but I always found reasons to back away from the quest.
At one point, I hatched a plan. I started a novel about the experience of finding him. My fictional telling was rooted in the idea of creating him from the snippets of anecdotes and traits I had been told over the years. Once the book was completed, I would track him down and compare notes, see how close I had come to realizing him on the page. I got about 13 chapters and pages and pages of notes into the project, but set it aside. That was almost 20 years ago and for the life of me, I'm not sure what put me off that time.
Two years ago, I finally accomplished the mission, driving down to North Carolina for a meeting, which lasted all of 30 minutes. He told his story, as best he could, in a breathless rush that led me to believe that he realized this would be our only meeting face-to-face. I sat and listened. I stared into his face. And now, as I sit here relaying the story, there's not much to tell. I don't remember much of what he looked like. I can't say that I found myself in any of his features. I do remember him saying that God brought me to him. He said it several times, but the truth, my truth at least, is that God had nothing to do with it. I came, I saw, and I returned to the only story that mattered.
This story was originally published on tt stern-enzi's blog, here.


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