text:
WTF? 40 Million Euros?
Here is an extract from an article on Yahoo:
A Paris court on Monday ordered the online auctioneer eBay to pay 40 million euros (63 million dollars) in damages to Louis Vuitton for selling fake luxury goods online.
The commercial court ruled in favour of six LVMH brands which accused eBay of putting on sale fake handbags, clothes and other luxury goods and of illicit sales of perfumes in a case that began a year and a half ago.
eBay, the world's biggest online auctioneer, was ordered to pay 19.28 million euros to LVMH and 17.3 million euros to its sister company Christian Dior Couture for damage to their brand images and causing moral harm.
It must also pay 3.25 million euros to four perfume brands -- Christian Dior, Kenzo, Givenchy and Guerlain -- for sales in violation of its authorized network.
The court barred eBay, which said it will appeal against the ruling, from advertising the cosmetic or perfume brands on its website.
LVMH had argued that eBay had failed to do enough to prevent the sale of counterfeit copies of their goods and that it did not have legal permission to sell its authentic products.
(link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080630...ompanylvmhebay)
WTF? 40 Million Euros?
PVC and Leather. A Chain and a feather
It sounds like the first step in outlawing perfume sales on ebay. I will be criminalized and driven into the underground
My Wardrobe
II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.
"illicit sales of perfumes" doesn't necessarily mean counterfeit perfumes...but interesting nevertheless. I don't know how French law works, but that would be appealed to death anywhere else, and the amount paid would be significantly less.
Get 'em cheap while you can
Anything that shafts ebay is fine by me.
"Dont try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. - Henri Matisse.
"Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder
LVMH was not just freakin' out over counterfeits- they stated that their perfumes could only be sold through outlets of their own designation. This means, to me, that eventually the goal is to clamp down on all secondary sellers, though how far they will go remains to be seen. I'm not happy about the large number of counterfeits sold on ebay, who is, but the secondary market is very significant, and I don't think it should be seen as a problem. Complicated issue.
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Do I applaud this step by LVMH for fighting counterfeit goods? Yes... counterfeiting is a major problem. I read in Consumer Reports once about car brake pads made out of compressed kitty litter and other atrocities. Still, I know someone who has been burned by counterfeits several times (on eBay, no less), but he won't stop buying junk off of eBay. However, he has become more vigilant about his eBay purchases.
Still, to me, sneaky eBay sellers that sell counterfeits are parasites that infect legitimate online and bricks and mortar businesses, especially in perfumes and other luxury goods. I read a study done by Chrysler once... they found that a new car buyer with a negative reaction tells ten times more friends about their experience than one with a positive reaction. The same thing could easily be said for fragrances.
Last, but not least: Keep in mind that LVMH also owns Sephora, their own authorized sales channel for their perfume and cosmetics brands (that also happens to sell many LVMH competitor brands while they're at it). And Sephora is pretty darn big (and growing), especially in France, the US, the Middle East, and China.
"It always seems impossible until it's done." -Nelson Mandela
My mission statement: "I am not afraid to keep on living - I am not afraid to walk this world alone."
Without knowing just what this means, we have no way of knowing just what happened. "Authorized network" could mean any number of things from eBay's agreement with them to eBay not being authorized to resell at all.t must also pay 3.25 million euros to four perfume brands -- Christian Dior, Kenzo, Givenchy and Guerlain -- for sales in violation of its authorized network.
LVMH covers a multitude of products beyond perfumes. This decision was not directed specifically at perfumes. It was about eBay not doing enough to prevent the sales of counterfeit goods. Be they sunglasses, luggage, or perfume.
While there can be an argument made that eBay doesn't "sell" any more than the organizer of a flea market "sells", it would be beside the point (if not out and out refuted by the court) now.
LVMH claims it was to prevent sales of counterfeit goods and that eBay wasn't doing enough; eBay claims it was to put a stranglehold on alternative sales outlets. Personally, I believe eBay's argument is not really believable.
I think it was a good decision. Counterfeit goods don't do anyone a favor. If the ruling permits eBay to continue selling products with guidelines in place that prevent the selling of counterfeit goods and satisfy the manufacturers, then everything should be fine.
Catherine Deneuve: "You should put scent where you like to be kissed."
My guess is that the key legal point concerns who is deemed the "seller." If ebay is considered a marketplace, such as an outdoor flea market, they can't be told to control (or stop) what one person sells to another, from what I understand. Of course, a European court can disagree with a US court, right?
As to the counterfeit issue, a court can decide that a site like ebay is "turning a blind eye" to such sales, though one would hope there is abundant evidence to support such a ruling.
Last edited by Bigsly; 30th June 2008 at 10:44 PM. Reason: error correction
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IMO Ebay pays lip service to monitoring it's auctions for counterfeits. It took a Big Boy (LVMH) and a sympathetic French court to hold their feet to the fire while in the past the individual buyer was more or less cast adrift by an Ebay that failed to enforce rules on their sellers.
Thee things cannot be long hidden: the Sun, the Moon, the Truth--Buddha
However, that much being said, I remain disappointed in the off-scent of my probably-counterfeit L'Eau par Kenzo, even though it was not bought on eBay, and wish the damned counterfeiters many sleepless nights in cheap motels, on the run.
Several musician friends of mine have seen their precious stolen instruments appear and then disappear on eBay. I almost regard eBay as an untouchable fencing operation.
Hmmm. Maybe that's a legal angle. Luxury houses may not get the same deep-pocket sympathy that eBay's numerous crime victims would.
So now I know why I can't list new items for sale on eBay! I recently sold some genuine Chanel that I had purchased from a housewife in Pacific Heights (chi chi SF neighborhood) on eBay. Then tried to sell the rest of her stock (she suddenly decided that Chanel screamed grandma! though was previously a Chanel fanatic!) and they wouldn't let me list it. Or anything else! And no explanation.
Frankly (pun intended), 63 million is probably NOTHING for eBay. A mere nuisance to them. I think it's the possibility of future lawsuits from other manufacturers that is the real issue for them.
I am now joining the "anything that shafts eBay is alright by me" posse. Now, what do I do with all this perfume.....LOL!
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PVC and Leather. A Chain and a feather
vive la france a l'enfer avec ebay! they absolutely have turned a blind eye to people selling fake creeds and chanels and whatnot. . . . I mean, come on people now, well all know this!!! I hope every other company that has seen ebay ripping them off follows suit (no pun intended!)
I think they may be making a distinction between other sellers on eBay, and items for sale in the eBay marketplace.
I don't think this will affect sales of fake items - pirates will always find a way.
e.g. White text on a white background that says "This product is not authentic." Technically the information was there, but was "inconspicuous."
Last edited by baudilus; 1st July 2008 at 11:59 AM.
If the only thing I bought on eBay were fragrance, I am sure I would feel as negative some of the opinions expressed here.
My other love is books. I can say I have bought well over 5,000 books on eBay, many antiquarian and rare, many at bargain prices and never once a fake! Probably 1-2% of the time, I get something poorly described, but rarely have felt ripped off. Maybe 5 times, always due to poor descriptions.
So I will echo the dissatisfaction with how eBay has handled the issue of counterfeit fragrance. At the same time I love other aspects of the eBay marketplace.
My Wardrobe
II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.
Ebay has moved far on from being a place for people to auction their unwanted second hand goods. The introduction of shops, buy it nows, etc has meant that lots of people use it for business reasons, it doesn't require the set up costs of a dedicated website and offers a massive buyership with no adverstising outlay. Goods are ordered from suppliers on deals designed for selling through bricks and mortar shops and then are sold without permission on ebay. I can see why this makes producers uncomfortable.
"Dont try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. - Henri Matisse.
"Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder
eBay are still accepting LVMH goods for auction it seems, I've just placed an auction for Coriolan (dont buy it, I'm not selling) (see http://www.basenotes.net/industry_ne...bay-fined.html)
I hope the more sales of fake crap on eBay will cease but people keep trying to hock them off. The world is full of useless, cheap junk as it is. eBay to me is the Wal-Mart of the Internet, crammed isles, loud mouthed people and filled with MADE IN CHINA tags.
A friend of mine bought an LV handbag a few years back there. A week after the auction, ebay sent this person an email saying that there might be a problem (don't know exactly what it said, didn't read it) and to contact the seller. The seller was eventually removed from ebay. However, this person saw the same item there about a year later, from a different seller. It's not that difficult to get someone else to sign up on ebay and then sell through that person's name, so long as you have at least a dozen or so friends and relatives. This is why ebay needs to be more proactive about it than they seem to be.
And what about other sites, like craigsligst? I just went over there and saw someone selling an LV bag. The person said that he or she thinks it's authentic but is not sure. It is selling for less than $100, so we all know what that means !
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I've noticed a recent increase in decants on EBay. This indicates they aren't running a constant screen for terms like decant, vial, etc. Surprising.
I don't think they will ever be able to stop any private individual from selling their own property second hand. You can still list decants on ebay uk.
By the way - I will sell a bottle of coriolan for a pound less than grant's
"Dont try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. - Henri Matisse.
"Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder
Last edited by scentsitivity; 1st July 2008 at 05:06 PM.
Cart Lady on eBay, too!
I think it might be a blessing if ebay would go away, fragrance wize!
I'm a woman who loves a bargain! the problem is I end up spending twice as much as I would on things I want on things I am compelled to lurch for cause "it's such a great deal"
yes, usually I can sell em back on ebay, and perhaps even make a profit
but. . . all the work involved and the ludicrousness of it all!
especially since my wardrobe is now more or less "complete" I would welcome ebay's demise in the fragrance dept ....
I hate the fact that eBay stopped allowing sales of decanted fragrances. That was really unfair and uncompetitive. Somebody ought to get a class-action lawsuit against the designer fragrance companies and settle it in court.
The truth is I could make a fair amount of money decanting fragrances and selling samples on eBay, but I can't now. Big busines is just crushing entrepreneurs any way they can.
I have no qualms about buying knockoff frags. These large companies are more than a bit odious in their behavior, and their products are overpriced, and their distribution networks too restrictive. They want to keep up the image of "high-end" when in reality there's not alot seperating them from the drugstore fragrances and knockoffs.
BTW, this isn't a slam on eBay. I love eBay and have been a seller there for quite some time, selling and trading mostly old useless stuff to people that need/want it. I've actually thought about eventually selling my own fragrance creations there eventually. I just wish that Big Business would let some parts of the internet stay like the Wild West instead of Mainstreet/Wallstreet.
Last edited by Magnulus; 4th July 2008 at 11:31 AM.
Hi gang,
Griff here.
I have in the past, posted on this subject. There are a lot of inaccurate statements, both here and online in general, regarding the sale of counterfeits, the responsibilities of online marketplaces and the individuals and businesses who employ said marketplaces for selling their wares.
As this is a subject that is germane to most every Basenoter (and since I am paid to be a big fat smartypants Mr. Know-It-All - what a dream job!) I will post again.
First, if you haven't done so, read eBay's official announcement regarding the ruling here:
In order to understand what is at stake here, and what the actual (not assumed or presumed) responsibilities of all parties are with regards to selling brand names items on line, you must first read the Digital Millennium Copyright Act:
This US law, passed in 1996 clearly sets out the responsibilities and limitations of liability with regards to service provider web sites and the members or subscribers who use them, not limited to but in particular, individuals and businesses that use them to sell copyright protected merchandise. Read it thoroughly. Anyone who wants to opine or argue this subject absolutely must know the current law.
According the to DMCA, sites like eBay are not initially at least, responsible for the activities of their members on their sites. This holds for text content Sites that operate as an online marketplace (where the site itself is defined as a service provider, like eBay for example) are only responsible for providing a mechanism whereby property rights owners can alert the service provider web site about any items or activity on their web site that infringes upon the their rights. eBay created an internal program called VeRO (Verified Rights Owners) to facilitate requests by rights owners to take down items that a rights owner believes infringes on their property rights. Read about VeRO here:
Any rights owner, an individual or a big business, can join the VeRO program. Once a rights owner joins the program, they can, per the guidelines set out by the DMCA, alert eBay whenever they find an item listed on the site that infringes upon their rights. It's important to note that per the law, only a rights owner or their authorized representatives can request a take down of a potentially infringing item. Not you, not me, not an industry expert... only the rights owner, period. (The only exception is when the seller of the item makes a clear statement disclaiming any warranty or guarantee regarding the item's authenticity. The law has determined this is a safe indication to the website owner to take action on their own without risk of setting precedent and assuming additional liability for all similar items).
So, what's at stake here? This ruling, if ultimately successful on appeal, will give manufacturers and brand name holders the precedent they need and the leverage they have sought for years to restrict and control all secondary market activity and prices for their brand name merchandise. (Make no mistake, this suit was never about counterfeits: it is about absolute and total control of their secondary markets, which the industry spokesperson's recent statement about fragrance so clearly indicated).
So, if you have no problem with paying prices set by manufactures (of for example, fragrance, just to name one category) with little or no possibility of the discounts provided by a robust, unobstructed secondary marketplace or if you have no problem with purchasing these items with restrictive resale covenants that severely hamper your ability to resell them, then by all means, celebrate away!
But if you have any interest at all in an open marketplace where you can find great bargains and can resell your brand names items to whomever you choose and at a price you set, then you might want to put aside any vengeful rejoicing about any one particular website and reconsider your enthusiasm and support for this ruling.
If you are interested or vested in online markets, either as a buyer, seller or investor, I urge you to read Dan Nissanoff's excellent book, Futureshop. Dan's view of the future of commerce and of the evolving role of the consumer in all markets is both encouraging and dire at once.
We want the fragrance companies to spend money on development of great perfumes and quality ingredients for those. So let them develop them and market them in a predictable way - one which allows proper price feedback in a LOCAL FREE MARKET. If they price too high in the UK, no-one will buy and they will drop the price. Ebay actually prevents this process.
Well done to the french courts - it is one of the only countries which holds up real values and makes difficult decisions against the all encompassing tide.
"Dont try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. - Henri Matisse.
"Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder
I agree with Hirch Duckfinder. "Capitalism" without boundaries eventually hurts the poor no matter what good intentions behind it might be. Me, coming from a poor third world country, can attest to the fact that WTO is only making poor areas poorer. What good is it going to do to an infant industry in a poor country when you ask them to open up their markets for your goods? I, for one, have no problem for paying 10 times more than somebody in Rwanda might pay for it if I am making 10 times more than him.
That said, I doubt the french courts have the well being of poor in mind. They are probably driven by the idea of protecting their markets and the markets they serve. Which is fine by all means. But I wish there is some mechanism applied in putting yourself in the others' shoes too, and apply the same rules when you exploit other markets just because you have money and you can exploit them.
Last edited by Mudassir; 6th July 2008 at 09:45 AM.
Offsite Sales - Updated June7th
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Sorry, again I don't see the logic in that statement and actually, I have met thousands ( no exaggeration) of people who have managed to pull themselves out of near penury and despair by starting a business online (most on eBay).If so it is an agenda more extreme than even the libertarians of the 80's expoused and woud lead to starvation and increased dominance of rich over poor so quickly that the poor would cease to exist in short order.
If you can explain how an open secondary marketplace somehow thwarts fragrance companies from spending money on development of great perfumes, please do . I am all ears.We want the fragrance companies to spend money on development of great perfumes and quality ingredients for those. So let them develop them and market them in a predictable way - one which allows proper price feedback in a LOCAL FREE MARKET.
Please explain how.If they price too high in the UK, no-one will buy and they will drop the price. Ebay actually prevents this process.
What tide? "Tide" of what? I confess, with all respect, to not understand your point.Well done to the french courts - it is one of the only countries which holds up real values and makes difficult decisions against the all encompassing tide.
The problem is related to cross- border enterprises which are impossible to regulate. Put simply - territories make up rules for for how transactions should take place balancing many factors including, for example, the need for taxation for provision of public service, the rights of consumers and the rights of companies to make a profit by fair means on their investments. These rules are then circumvented by various means, including the grey market importing which is hugely prominent on ebay.
The companies have learned to use the grey markets to an extent. However, distribution in this way relieves downward pressure on prices by acting like a valve.
The tide I refer to is the tide of cross-national unregulatable bussiness which serves the rich and disadvantages the poor. There are solutions to this possible, but as yet they are not in place.
"Dont try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. - Henri Matisse.
"Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder
No it isn't. This is the open secondary market and it is legal. It is how the market works. Businesses don't buy high to sell low at a loss. Surely you don't champion that.It is about goods which are bought in other parts of the world (where local economics mean they are sold at a lower price) and then resold at a large profit in wealthier matkets. This is the grey market.
What I suspect (and correct me if my suspicion is incorrect) is that you are against anyone but the manufacturer deciding where their products are sold after the first point of sale, correct? (I am not talking about counterfeits - they are unwelcome in eBay's marketplace - I am talking about genuine products.)
A manufacturer has the right to establish contractual arrangements with first point of sale outlets and retailers (or sell their products in their own stores). For example, Geurlain can (and does) strictly control who can purchase their products directly from them for resale. However, once beyond the first point of sale, the manufacturer no longer has a say in the resale of their products. And it doesn't matter if the purchaser is an individual selling off their unwanted birthday present (Heritage does not smell of "old man.") or a wholesaler who discovers a source of the product from either the manufacturer of another retail or wholesaler after the first point of sale. It is all legal and to argue otherwise (or worse, to argue that it should not be legal) is to argue against open marketplaces everywhere.
Of course, a manufacturer can determine if one of their first point of sale clients has violated their contractual agreement and take appropriate action but (and this is very important), the manufacturer has no legal claim on the individual or company that purchased the items from the first point of sale client. If a brand owner's product "bleeds" out of their transaction chain after the first point of sale, it is a matter between the brand owner and their first point of sale retail outlet clients only. It is not the responsibility, legally, morally or ethically, of anyone - individual consumer or business - further down the resale chain.
Based on the actions and words of the plaintiffs in this law suit, it is clear that their intent is to establish a precedent-setting ruling that would give the manufacturer the right to control trade in their items beyond the first point of sale. The precedent this would set would be devastating for small business everywhere (not just online and not just on eBay and not just in the US).
Yes, I love the company ( I work here because I love it, not, "I love it because I work here.") And it is kind of "cool" right now to dump on eBay. (Boooo big bad eBay... Go get em you poor luxury brands!) I can see how this could be fun for some and I would be the last person to deny anyone their moment of fun. But I would strongly urge anyone interested in or vested in the future of open marketplaces to pay very close attention to this suit, the appeal and especially the ramifications as they extend far beyond the fortunes of one company.
I believe you have missed the point. The manufacteres might be wanting to have more control than they should. I am all for secondary market competing and slashing prices on a local basis. The trouble comes in when a shipment from the US intended for overseas, goes overseas and comes back to the US. The fact remains that there should be some kind of mechanism that wont let the citizens of a rich country get something from cheap from a poor country without any ramifications that would help out that poor country in the least. The argument that a 15 year old boy in Africa is atleast earning a living by selling Chanel for $5 to US customers reeks of imperialism. Sure he might be making an earning. I would be all for it if the US customer has to pay a big chunk of the price difference in tariffs and charges that would help the local population. Ebay is helping exploit this in the name of free market.
Offsite Sales - Updated June7th
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I repeat: The French court ruling is about one thing and one thing only: the attempt by a group of companies - LVMH in this first go round - to gain control over the free market by asking the French court to prevent the legal resale of their merchandise in those markets, ostensibly online markets like eBay but definitely not limited to those online markets.
LVMH has asked and the court has ruled that no one - business or individual - has the right to sell authentic brand name merchandise in any market, first point of sale and beyond, without the express permission of the brand name owner.
Let me make this clearer to you. If this ruling stands on appeal, it will mean that if you (or that 15 year old African boy) has a bottle of genuine Chanel # 5 , neither of you will be able to sell it legally anywhere without Chanel's permission and, if you do not obtain that permission and you attempt to sell it, they can stop you with a cease and desist order - or worse. Not just on eBay, but on your own web site or even here at venerable BN or technically, in your own garage sale. And once the precedent is set, it is open season on consumers and business owners everywhere for every type of merchandise including brand name clothing, home and garden items, cars, etc. Consumers will no longer purchase items, They will rent or lease them from the manufacturers, with a covenant that prevents them from disposing of the items in any marketplace that they have not pre-approved (and just guess which markets those will be...just guess who will own those markets...)
Personally, I don't think this ruling can stand the scrutiny of an appeal but I could be wrong of course. But make no mistake: if this ruling is upheld, it will be a crippling blow to consumers, small businesses and markets everywhere.
Last edited by Griff; 7th July 2008 at 01:01 AM.
>>>>>>There are already "mechanisms" in place. They are called "tariffs" (and customs duties, taxes etc). It is up to each separate country to set their own trade tariffs, not the marketplace. If an individual or company has found away around paying a country's tariffs or taxes and is doing so in violation of that country's laws, it is up to that country to pursue that individual or company, not the marketplace. (eBay is many things to many people. It is not the global law enforcement agency. )
Right. Ebay, or any other marketplace for that matter, is just an innocent bystander and not a facilitator. Excuse me, but your logic will not fly in any court of law. Imagine being a facilitator of two parties who want to complete a drug deal. You, in this case just introducing them knowing fully well your being a facilitator is going to break some law should be held accountable. Somebody wanting to sell drugs, and somebody else wanting to buy them is government's business. They should take care of that stuff and leave you alone. Try using that in any court of law.
>>>>Let me make this clearer to you. If this ruling stands on appeal, it will mean that if you (or that 15 year old African boy) has a bottle of genuine Chanel # 5 , neither of you will be able to sell it legally anywhere without Chanel's permission and, if you do not obtain that permission and you attempt to sell it, they can stop you with a cease and desist order - or worse. Not just on eBay, but on your own web site or even here at venerable BN or technically, in your own garage sale. And once the precedent is set, it is open season on consumers and business owners everywhere for every type of merchandise including brand name clothing, home and garden items, cars, etc. Consumers will no longer purchase items, They will rent or lease them from the manufacturers, with a covenant that prevents them from disposing of the items in any marketplace that they have not pre-approved (and just guess which markets those will be...just guess who will own those markets...)
You are just playing on the fear factor by extrapolating the ruling. The secondary market place would win an appeal even in the french court. The only business that is bound to lose is the grey market area- and I think you know it fully well the existance of a legitimate LOCAL secondary market on Ebay is non-existant. Even if your fear factor and extra polation holds, then I don't think LMVH or anobody else would waste time coming after the garage sales and small fish like us. Ebay has a right to fear as they have made the illegitimate secondary market (any market that deals with exporting something out of the country only to import it back because the prices for export are lower is illegitimate) their bread and butter.
Last edited by Mudassir; 7th July 2008 at 01:55 AM.
Offsite Sales - Updated June7th
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Wow, maybe this is something to worry about:
From NSTThe French Court of Appeals today denied eBays petition to stay an injunction issued June 30 by a Parisian court that requires eBay to halt all sales of four LVMH perfumes [Kenzo, Guerlain, Dior, Givenchy] over any site worldwide that is accessible from France, according to an eBay spokesperson.
[...] The lower courts order bans not just sales of counterfeits, but sales of genuine bottles of these perfumes [...] According to lawyers for both sides, the injunction even forbids individuals from reselling genuine LVMH products that they received as gifts.
EDIT: Personally I find this laughable, silly French idiots, you cannot dictate what every country is able to sell on a website just because your country has access to the website. So does every other country.
Last edited by s0me0nesmind1; 11th July 2008 at 09:01 PM.
I doubt the selling of personal items could hold in any court. The lawyers are just interpreting the "authorized channels" on their own. Seems like the gray market is illegal as it is in France. If it is already outlawed in France, then the court just interpreted that it applies to Ebay as well. Whats all the fuss about then?
Offsite Sales - Updated June7th
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Just to thicken the plot, LVMH has its own legal woes at the moment:
They only put the lead in US-bound lipstick because it's prohibited in Europe. Makes you wonder why it isn't prohibited in the US as well.
I'm not a huge fan of eBay, but LVMH can go to hell. They cheapen and vulgarize everything they touch and sell it to aspirational oafs who don't understand the first thing about quality. The harm counterfeiters have done to their brands doesn't begin to approach the harm they've done to the brands they've bought out.
"Certainly, virtue is like precious odours, most fragrant when they are incensed, or crushed: for prosperity doth best discover vice; but adversity doth best discover virtue."
- Francis Bacon
Ah well, I'm not much of a legal person. Just a run-of-the-mill type who thinks "yes, counterfeits suck" but at the same time thinks "Not another unwanted perfume prezzie! Doesn't matter I can flog it on ebay. While I'm there maybe I can pick up a bottle of something I do want from someone in the same situation". Can't I have it both ways? What do counterfeiters have to do with selling genuine items you no longer want?
What makes the perfume guys so special anyway? Surely this situation applies to most stuff on ebay?
Sorry folks, Griff hit this spot on. By supporting this, you're just signing more of your rights away for what they like to perceive to YOU as "safety". Shit, why don't you just regulate that I can't sell perfumes at my garage sale?
caveat emptor, folks. Always been my words to live by.
In my opinion, I find it hard to imagine that LVMH has anything but their bottom lines at heart. The notion that they give a fig about responsibilities to consumers is well-meant, but implausible.
On an aside, why do people dislike ebay? Just a genuine question here; I mean, I don't particularly love the folks, but I don't dislike them at all; I've bought and sold things there without incident MANY times over the years.
Also, I'm in the camp of squeamish at the precedent set by this, and for the possibility of the beloved basenotes marketplace in the crosshairs next. Deep pockets make for stubborn adversaries
Aside from the fact that rejoicing or despairing by the mass of merchants has no influence on the legal outcome - a fact well known and exploited by your company - let us keep the facts and truth firmly before us. The "grey market" restrictions can hold only in limited venue if at all - because of the First Sale Doctrine and similar laws and NOT the DMCA obviously - and have no real significance to the main thrust of this ruling which is that eBay inc does in fact have a legal obligation to eliminate their trade in counterfeits. Should eBay in fact do so, it would result in a more open marketplace where legitimate product is bought and sold and the bargains are real instead of illusions.But if you have any interest at all in an open marketplace where you can find great bargains and can resell your brand names items to whomever you choose and at a price you set, then you might want to put aside any vengeful rejoicing about any one particular website and reconsider your enthusiasm and support for this ruling.
Last edited by RealityCheck; 13th July 2008 at 05:37 PM.
Last edited by RealityCheck; 13th July 2008 at 05:49 PM.
Last edited by s0me0nesmind1; 13th July 2008 at 06:06 PM.
The ultimate effect of the judgment may be applied by other brands should they choose to pursue it. That is the result which eBay objects to, and the result which would result in a safer, more open marketplace by eliminating knock-offs. It doesn't matter whether a given brand or eBay inc cares about that.
You can say the suit is about counterfeits, but at the end of the day it's about money. Every lawsuit is about money. They want more of it. More open marketplace? Read this again, they want to eliminate ALL SALES (legitimate AND counterfeit). that is, there will be no marketplace if they have their way. They want to eliminate your right to resell your property so that instead of you selling to say a fellow basenoter, they want to make them go out and buy another bottle at full retail so they can rejoice, and people like me and you can suffer if you no longer like a fragrance.
How is a marketplace more safer when the marketplace doesn't exist?That is the result which eBay objects to, and the result which would result in a safer, more open marketplace by eliminating knock-offs.
Last edited by s0me0nesmind1; 13th July 2008 at 06:38 PM.
1. Stopping eBay from facilitating the sale of counterfeits
2. Stopping "unauthorized" sales of the brands
Taking the eBay press releases at face value you may well be led to believe that it was all about the second part. Griff's false statement was explicit and direct, all about controlling the market. Don't believe it; the suit and judgment are primarily about the counterfeits, and not about exerting control. That's simply a talking point to divert public attention from their defeat with respect to the first part.
The second, lesser part is unenforceable in many venues including the USA and possibly in Europe, perhaps even in France. Relax, it will not eliminate all online sales.
There was an interesting article I read a couple of yeas back- I believe in NYTimes- regarding how eliminating counterfeits would hurt the bottom line of luxury good companies. I found the argument perfectly sensible. I know of quite a few people who wouldn't have dished out $600 for something authentic in the begining primarily because of sticker shock. They might have bought counterfeits or more afforadble brands at first, but did end up dishing out the sticker price eventually. Had that ladder not been available. it wouldn't have been possible for them to overcome the sticker shock no matter what.
Offsite Sales - Updated June7th
Vintage Dia, Vetiver Dry, Angel parfum, Opium parfum for Sale:
The French Court of Appeals today denied eBay's petition to stay an injunction issued June 30 by a Parisian court that requires eBay to halt all sales of four LVMH perfumes [Kenzo, Guerlain, Dior, Givenchy] over any site worldwide that is accessible from France, according to an eBay spokesperson.
Last edited by s0me0nesmind1; 13th July 2008 at 07:10 PM.
Am I missing something or are you?
I believe you are ignoring the main portion of the judgment, just as Griff and eBay intended, and are confusing an appeal to stay the injunction with the original judgment.
You are also quoting a statement ending with "according to an eBay spokesperson." There are two reasons why eBay (not every internet site worldwide) is enjoined: 1) because the first court deemed their anti-counterfeiting measures inadequate and 2) the court affirmed that French law prohibited the sales in France by unlicensed distributors.
Let's cut this short, as it's becoming repetitive. You can repeat the corporate false claim as often as you want that this is all only about a brand wanting to control the market. It won't change the facts and the legal ramifications.
That's where the quote is from.
Of course the perfume companies are interested in protecting their markets and profits - that is what companies do. What do you expect them to do? Our society supports companies making profits in fair ways and attempts to regulate those making profits in unfair ways.
Ebay has for a long time supported unfair profit maiking by its sellers and hence itself.
For example - why was second chance introduced? This was because sellers were falsely inflating the price of their auctions by bidding from secondary accounts (or cooperating with networks of friends to do this) and sometimes losing the sales by bidding too high. Used to be be lost sales - now second chance offers. This practice was very obvious to anyone trading on ebay. The whole "bump-bidding" thing is very common. Ebay were so lax about challanging this it became not worth reporting.
Add to this grey market, stolen goods, counterfeits and this company has seriously abused its monopoly.
I hope it gets hammered in courts accross the world.
"Dont try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. - Henri Matisse.
"Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder
I don't think seond chance offer is too terrible. Even if some sellers might be inflating the auction price, it is really upto the buyers who are interested to set their maximum bid. If I am setting my maximum bid at $50, then I know beforehand I could pay upto $50 for that item. Sure if I get it for $20, that would be great. But I had already decided I could pay as much as $50 for it.
Second Chance Offers could be a good thing for one-off sellers. I put something up on there, and the winning bidder just bid on it. She just had a rush of blood and bid, and wasn't willing to pay up. Second Chance Offer was a blessing for me as it saved me time to relist again.
You might be talking from the point of view how some sellers might be abusing it, and how Ebay wants to get the most $ out of it. But then again, thats what all the companies want to do.
The real issue in this case is unauthorized resale channels are outlawed in France, unlike in the US or UK. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to decide sellers selling on Ebay are unauthorized, and Ebay is held accountable for allowing the sales. Forget about the counterfeits, as apparently all hail is breaking lose for others on this forum because the court said even legitimate sales from unauthorized channels is included in this ruling. I am not sure what would they want any court to do if the law of the land says you need to be an authorized seller to sell.
Offsite Sales - Updated June7th
Vintage Dia, Vetiver Dry, Angel parfum, Opium parfum for Sale:
I never post on this site, but Griff is correct. They are trying to control the market. Period. End of Story.
The reason they strictly control who can sell their items is to control the price. If you really think the price of this stuff is driven by market forces you are delusional. If anything you should be praising Ebay for opening markets.


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Wilkinson boots Toulon to victory
December 8, 2012
Jonny Wilkinson slotted 12 points for Toulon
© Getty Images
Toulon overcame a spirited Sale Sharks side 17-6 at the Salford City Stadium on Saturday in the Heineken Cup.
Filthy conditions at the Salford City Stadium did much to bridge the gulf in class between a star-studded side leading the French Top 14 and one propping up the Aviva Premiership, but the visitors did just enough to secure the crucial points, with winger David Smith scoring the only try and Jonny Wilkinson kicking four penalties from seven attempts.
A second defeat to French opposition ahead of next week's re-match on the Cote D'Azure leaves the Sharks with little hope of qualification for the knockout stages, but their priority is survival in the Premiership and new director of rugby John Mitchell will doubtless be encouraged by today's gritty display. Sale's points came from the boot of Danny Cipriani, who was promoted to the starting line-up following the late withdrawal of Cameron Shepherd through illness and the switch of Rob Miller to full-back.
Miller had a superb game in his regular position while Cipriani held his own against the vastly experienced Wilkinson, but the Sharks were unable to carve out a single clear-cut tryscoring chance.
Cipriani drew first blood in the duel of former England fly-halves, landing a 45-metre penalty after seven minutes to put his side into the lead, five minutes after the Toulon captain had been wide with a 40-metre kick. Wilkinson levelled the scores with a penalty from in front of the posts on 16 minutes as the game developed into a kicking contest.
With conditions worsening in the constant drizzle, Cipriani attempted to secure further points with the boot but was narrowly off target with two ambitious penalty attempts from the halfway line. Wilkinson also fluffed a third goal-kick on 29 minutes but the visitors scored the game's first try immediately afterwards after Smith found some rare space out on the Sale right.
Cipriani kept the Sharks well in contention with another penalty seven minutes before the interval but Wilkinson responded with his second successful kick three minutes later to make it 11-6 at half-time. Sale enjoyed the better of the third quarter but Toulon number eight Chris Masoe broke up a promising move by intercepting Cipriani's pass and his 50-metre break set up the position for Wilkinson to kick his third penalty on 51 minutes to open up an eight-point lead.
That gave Toulon, who included a trio of former Sale favourites in Andrew Sheridan, Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe and Sebastian Bruno, a useful cushion to become more adventurous. They almost scored a second try when flanker Steffon Armitage was driven over the line but he was unable to ground the ball, while replacement scrum-half Sebastien Tillous-Borde had a last-minute try disallowed by the television match official. Wilkinson was wide with a drop-goal attempt but he wrapped up the scoring with a fourth penalty.
And Sale boss John Mitchell is hoping to use the performance as a marker for the rest of their season as they battle to avoid the drop.
"After last week one thing we asked of the guys in order to move forward - we need to basically stay in the contest for a lot longer and we managed to do that," Mitchell said. "I thought we fought very well and also showed more maturity than we did last week. We didn't get frustrated when we lost possession and we generated some exceptional work without the ball.
"I think an example of how much we've grown in a week was the way we defended our goal-line with about 12 minutes to go. It gives you a sign of where we've got to head towards in order to advance in the Premiership. The Premiership is not about being the most exciting football team - it's about being a collective team that's prepared to work together and hang in there. It was a very good collective performance.
"I think tonight we showed it's a good starting point. What we've got to do now is build on that each week."
© ESPN Sports Media Ltd.
|Live Scores
Jones key to Wales World Cup plans
Huw Richards assesses where Wales are after a mixed Six Nations, with front row seats still very much available for the World Cup
Attacking revolution will be fleeting
John Mitchell lapped up the action on 'Sensational Saturday' - but warns not to expect a repeat come Rugby World Cup time later this year
Ireland, England are dangers if ...
Craig Dowd warns England, Ireland and Wales they should play to their strengths rather than those of the All Blacks and the Wallabies
Six Nations prospects for the World Cup
Tom Hamilton runs the rule over just where the six countries stand ahead of the global gathering in September

subset: commoncrawl


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With a click and a whirr, I am pulled into the scanner. My head is strapped down and I have been draped with a blanket so that I may touch my nether regions — my clitoris in particular — with a certain degree of modesty. I am here neither for a medical procedure nor an adult movie. Rather, I am about to stimulate myself to orgasm while an fMRI scanner tracks the blood flow in my brain. My actions are helping Barry Komisaruk at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey, and colleagues to tease apart the mechanisms underlying sexual arousal. In doing so, not only have they discovered that there is more than one route to orgasm, but they may also have revealed a novel type of consciousness — an understanding of which could lead to new treatments for pain.
Tag Archives | New Age
Trial Of New Age Guru Reveals Bizarre Practices
In October 2009 reports of mutliple deaths at an Arizona sweat lodge retreat led by New Age guru James Arthur Ray (one of the "teachers" in the hit movie and book The Secret) rocked the self help world. Now that he's on trial, details of his bizarre practices are emerging. Mark Duncan reports for the Daily Courier:
… Read the rest
Echoes of a lost life hung thickly over Judge Warren Darrow's courtroom Tuesday after a jury heard the recorded voice of Kirby Brown, one of three people who died after a sweat lodge ceremony near Sedona in 2009.
The deaths led to charges of manslaughter against noted motivational speaker and author James Arthur Ray, who has pleaded not guilty.
"When we started the (Samurai) game, I was like you," Brown said on the recording, which was made just before she and the other attendees entered the sweat lodge. It is a segment from recordings made during four days of Ray's October 2009 Spiritual Warrior Retreat.
Vale Kenneth Grant, 1924–2011: Grandfather Chaos and Flying Saucerer
Finally unpacking the books bequeathed to me by my late ex-Freemason father-in-law's estate has put me in a wistful mood. I just keep being reminded of how many 20th century disinformationists we've recently lost: John Keel, John Mitchell, Zecharia Sitchin — and a loss equivalent to the space filled by their contributions to occulture.
Stacking my now prized Golden Dawn collection turned my thoughts to Israel Regardie and so Crowley — and to his other spiritual son and former secretary, Kenneth Grant.
Both did a great deal to popularise modern post-Thelemic magic. I've got some fond '80s teenage memories of coming across them all in the Psychology section (?) of my local library and reading furtively with one eye over my shoulder. It was the start of an endless study of esotericism.
So I was not surprised when I read that Kenneth Grant had passed away in a friend's Facebook status.… Read the rest
Study Shows Meditation Changes Brain Structure in Just 8 Weeks
Christie Nicholson writes in Scientific American:
… Read the rest
The benefits of meditation have received newfound evidence from neuroscience in the last five years, as researchers are finding real physiological changes due to a sort of formally practiced introspection.
Recently scientists from Massachusetts General Hospital had 16 participants take an eight-week mindfulness meditation program. This sort of meditation focuses on nonjudgmental awareness of sensations and feelings. Subjects practiced for about 30 minutes a day.
Brain images were taken of each subject before and after the training. Scientists found increases in gray-matter density in the hippocampus — an area responsible for learning and memory. And they saw decreased density in the amygdala— which is responsible for our anxiety and stress responses …
All this reminds us of two things: 1) The brain is much more plastic than scientists thought even just a decade ago and 2) the way we feel—calm or anxious—can be correlated with real structural indicators in our brains.
Evolver the Podcast: Exploring Prehistoric Man and the Changing of the Times
Evolver the Podcast: Exploring Prehistoric Man and the Changing of the Times
Website • Direct Download • RSS
Hello everyone and welcome back to Evolver the Podcast. In this episode we have interviews with Graham Hancock, bestselling author of Fingerprints of the Gods, The Sign and the Seal, Supernatural, and most recently Entangled. After that we interview Robin Gunkel who is a regional coordinator for Evolver Baltimore. Then we have Erin Shaw from Evolver LA interviewing Daniel Pinchbeck, co-founder of Evolver, and bestselling author of Breaking Open The Head, 2012 the Return of Quetzalcoatl, and most recently Notes from the Edge Times.
Damanhur: My Sci-Fi Theophany Under the Mountain
December, 2007. The distant Alps are covered in snow. Small flakes swirl in the wind, dancing around red clay statues of muscular giants and voluptuous goddesses, reminiscent of Egypt. Most prominent is the falcon-headed god, Horus, facing the Fire Altar where the looming statues converge.
I start to walk into the grove of the Earth Altar, but my guide Shama tells me I should go no further.
"It is dangerous for anyone who is not spiritually prepared," she warns me. "Very dangerous."
I would be willing to chance it, but I suppose rules are rules.
In the distance is Monti Pelati, the sacred mountain of the Damanhurians. It is said that more Synchronic Lines converge there than any place in the world. These lines are like the Earth's magnetic field — only magic. They were discovered psychically by the founder and leader of the Damanhurians, Falco.
This is a place of power, of mystery.… Read the rest
Daniel Pinchbeck's Business Shamanism
I wonder if this essay by Daniel Pinchbeck will, years hence, be looked upon as a seminal point in the transition of the "consciousness" movement, for lack of a better term, from an idealistic remove from the mainstream a la Burning Man (which of course is completely unsustainable despite it's worthy goals), to a pragmatic vision of how to change the world. From his Reality Sandwich blog:
… Read the rest
Now that the Evolver network and brand have established themselves to a certain extent, I want to look ahead to developments I hope to see in the near future, with this organization and other initiatives. For the next phase of development, I propose the term "business shamanism." "Corporate alchemy" would be a viable alternative.
First, some context: As I write this, the ruling regime in our rotten republic of Obama-stan is seeking to ignore the pain of the sheeple and extend lavish tax breaks for the wealthy.The financial elite engineered a massive transfer of assets over the last decades, and they are now completing the procedure of creating a two-tier society resembling a serfdom.
God May Not Be the Theoretical Higgs Boson: SHE May Be the Already-Discovered Weak Force
We all have our ideas about how the world and universe work. Some of us see the hand of "God" in everything. Others are atheists or agnostics—still others are guided by spirituality. But no matter where we are on the "believe" spectrum, most of us see a rather benign universe. By that I mean that we do not see specific forces struggling with one another in the cosmos once we get away from earth, which is interesting to me. We see conflict and battles on earth but not in the rest of the universe.
We view it much as we do a documentary—no plots, no dynamics—just an intriguing show. We look at ourselves—human life on earth—as being the real show. But that separation has, I believe, caused us to distort our perceptions of the Big Picture. I think if we start seeing the natural conflicts that exist in the universe, then we might start the process that leads to fewer human conflicts on earth.… Read the rest
Discover The Lost History of 'Hidden Wisdom'
Laughter Yoga Is For Everyone
Next month disinformation is releasing a new film from documentarian Albert Nerenberg, Laughology. It's the fourth film we've distributed for Albert and we have a lot of faith in him, even if we had never heard of Laughter Yoga before.
It turns out it's massive and the public library next door to our office in New York has free classes, so a few of us went along. If you can get over the embarrassment factor, it actually does seem to work. The New York Times has just discovered the same thing:
… Read the rest
I was in a vile, despicable mood when I arrived at laughter yoga. It was Wednesday, and my brain felt torn in one too many directions; the usual, only worse. Laughter seemed a remote possibility.
I waited patiently inside a nondescript office at 40th Street and Broadway among a group of wildly divergent strangers, with only my skepticism to keep me company.


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Jesus Christ Drawings Pictures
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Mediterra Art Hotel
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TravelPod Member ReviewsDolphin Harbor Inn Lauderdale by the Sea
This hotel was a fine place. Clean, charming and quaint it had an olde worlde feel. I'm not snooty enough to appreciate the true height of its fineness, in fact, I think. Room was a little too small I should say, and the bathroom was fairly dingy and dark. The fridge door hit the foot of the bed the room was so small. But the location is lovely and a walk early in the morning round the place is very relaxing. Oh and breakfast was epic. Not as extravagant as Movenpick Petra of course, but for the price and the size of the hotel it was great.
This review is the subjective opinion of a TravelPod member and not of TravelPod.com.
Great position to walk around the historic cobblestone narrow alleys.handt yto all eating places and shops. Room not huge because of style but fine, Hard bed. Breakfast at 8am and our bus tour pickup due at 8??? managed a quick bite
This review is the subjective opinion of a TravelPod member and not of TravelPod.com.
TripAdvisor Reviews Dolphin Harbor Inn Lauderdale by the Sea
Travel Blogs from Antalya
Moto Tour of Turkey: Preping in Antalya
Google Maps route, here are all the photos in Google+ and here are the photospheres.
Bike rental
Whilst I have recently bought a bike I haven't got the paperwork (carnet de passage etc) in order for an international trip, so I rented a bike from Trust in Antalya. The bike was the cheapest I …
A poem for every country this year
I have had the privilege of travelling to 9 countries since starting my job in Kuwait. I'll be going to Turkey today, my last one for this first year. Following is a poem for each one, which I wrote in a bout of inspiration on the Balcony Walk, near Jebel Shams in Oman. The Turkey poem is in the pictures :-)
Side (See-day)
It was cool and it was windy but it was awesome to see this ancient Roman settlement it actually goes back farther because it was an important seaport and strategic as well. Tons of ruins, that once stood fountains, shops and homes, huge city walls, tons of marble pillars laying on the ground, and a pretty ...


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Do You Sweat Too Much? http://t.co/p5V8fUI0Zu via @usnews #Hyperhidrosis Know #Sweating
Founded in 2003 by an elite team of world-respected physicians and experts in hyperhidrosis research, the International Hyperhidrosis Society is the only independent, non-profit, global organization that strives to improve quality of life among those affected by excessive sweating. The International Hyperhidrosis Society knows no boundaries; it is composed of people from all over the world, making it a true global network of understanding, advocacy, information, and resources. We are a registered charity under section 501(c)3 of the IRS tax code and 100% of your donation is tax deductible (for U.S. residents). Each member of our Board of Directors is a dedicated volunteer.
Our mission is to reduce the symptoms, anxiety, and social stigma associated with excessive sweating by improving the information, support, and treatment available to the millions (3% of the population) of children, teens, and adults affected by hyperhidrosis worldwide. As part of our mission, we promote hyperhidrosis research, educate healthcare professionals in optimal hyperhidrosis diagnosis and management, raise awareness about the condition's emotional and economic impacts, and advocate for improved patient access to effective treatments, all while also increasing public understanding of this debilitating medical condition. We also build programs that connect those who suffer from hyperhidrosis with those who provide care.
Be sure to peruse our rich online content including:
And because hyperhidrosis usually starts in the teen years, the visit our award-winning teen website: www.SweatOmeter.org.
Welcome to our global community! We look forward to seeing how you'll get involved today.
Through our public awareness programs, millions have learned about hyperhidrosis in the press!
No Slip-Ups with Iontophoresis All four major U.S. sports are in play this week with baseball (MLB) having just wrapped up its World Series, football (NFL) in the thick of its...Read more
Hyperhidrosis Has Its Day! NOW! This fall the journal Dermatologic Clinics dedicates an entire issue to excessive sweating including its impact on quality of life, best-practice treatment, and much more. International Hyperhidrosis...Read more
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International Hyperhidrosis Society has received the GuideStar Exchange Seal a leading symbol of transparency and accountability provided by GuideStar, the premier source of nonprofit information.
International Hyperhidrosis Society is a 2014 Top-Rated Nonprofit!


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Stop in for the best burgers in town!
Get a FREE drink or fries with
any large order of the best cheesesteaks around!
Serving the best food in town!
Are you a cheesesteak connoisseur and only want the very best cheesesteaks in town? If you are from the Allen or McKinney areas and want the best burgers around then you'll want to head on over to Big Tony's West Philly Cheesesteaks. Full of variety, many combination options, special offers and a fun and friendly atmosphere, is a hits-the-spot kind of place with perfect food from cheesesteaks to the best wings in town!
Nothing is too big, too crazy, too extravagant or too weird for the customers at Tony's West Philly Cheesesteaks. They take making the best cheesesteaks and the best burgers to the next level. They serve the Allen and McKinney areas with some of the most intense, quality-made menu options that will have you coming back for more. If you are just dreaming of delicious, mouth watering food, then have a taste of the best wings and the best burgers and more at Tony's!
In addition to their cheesesteaks, Big Tony's West Philly Cheesesteaks is known for having the best burgers in the area. Customers come from all across McKinney and Allen in order to have one of their delicious burgers. You might be thinking, "What can be so special about them?". Try them and you will soon see why they are called the best burgers in town. Served hot and fresh with all of your favorite toppings, there is no other burger that can compare.
Wings have become an American tradition. When
you dine at Big Tony's West Philly Cheesesteaks, you'll receive
some of the best wings in Texas!
These burgers are
big and loaded with flavor. After one bite you'll immediately see
why they are the best burgers in Mckinney and Allen, TX. They are
made to order and served steaming hot. Any topping you'd like can
be added to your burger too. Stop in and have one of our awesome
If you're planning
a trip to the Mckinney or Allen areas, be sure to visit Big Tony's West Philly
Cheesesteaks. We want you to experience the best
burger that you've ever tasted. Come in you join us. We guarantee
you'll leave satisfied.
With over 5 types of cheese and endless toppings to choose from, you can have your cheesesteaks your way, cooked to perfection. Owner Anthony, aka Big Tony, has 50 years of West Philly Cheesesteak-loving under his belt; he knows what it takes to provide the best cheesesteaks and best burgers in town. Big Tony's West Philly Cheesesteaks is a premier favorite lunch, dinner and take-out spot; with the goal to offer not just the best cheesesteaks, Anthony has been able to achieve that along with offering the best burgers and best wings as well in Allen and Mckinney.
For a delicious
and tasty burger, stop in to Big Tony's West Philly Cheesesteaks.
We are more than just a great Philly cheesesteak restaurant. We
serve a wide variety of delicious food that you'll love.
When you're craving the best burgers or the best wings, there's only one place to go. Big Tony's West Philly Cheesesteaks has been serving up the greatest food for McKinney and Allen for years. You'll love the delicious and fresh food prepared to order. You'll be hard-pressed to find another restaurant that serves better burgers than Big Tony's West Philly Cheesesteaks!
For more information about why Tony's has the best burgers and best cheesesteaks, visit their website. The fresh food is cooked to order and only takes a few minutes to ensure you a great meal served perfectly the first time. They are fully-committed to not only providing the best burgers and best cheesesteaks, but to make your visit and dining experience a pleasure and joy.
Take advantage of FREE drink or fries with any large cheesesteak!
Big Tony's has been praised for having the best Philly
cheesesteak in Allen and McKinney. They can make any
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Outrageous and fun options make Tony's the top spot for the best
burgers and the best cheesesteaks in town. While you're at
it, order their carefully-cooked and glazed wings. They're
conveniently open 6 days a week 11am-9pm, Sunday's
closed. Head over on Saturdays for family day and the best
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also have weekly specials, so head over to see them!
Great Food, Great Service, YOU WON'T BE DISAPPOINTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Burgers, Wings, Hoagies Cheesesteaks, Fish Sandwiches, Fish Baskets, Tasty Kate's, Authentic Italian Ice, Hank's Sodas, French Fries, Onion Straws, Fried Jalapenos.
|Did you visit Big Tony's recently?
|Fri Mar 27 09:00:00 EDT 2015
Leave us a comment and tell us about your experience. We look forward to hearing from you!
|Bread flown in from Philly!
|Fri Mar 20 09:00:00 EDT 2015
To serve an authentic Philly cheesesteak, we actually get ingredients from Philadelphia. Amoroso's Baking Company has been a family-owned-and-operated business for more than 100 years! Their hearth-baked bread and rolls are delivered to us "par-baked" so we can serve them to you fresh, here in Texas.
|Every Saturday is family day!
|Fri Mar 13 16:00:00 EDT 2015
Enjoy great food and great service in our dining room! Our kids menu has options that will certainly please a picky eater.
|Plan ahead ... or don't.
|Mon Feb 09 15:21:00 EST 2015
Mondays are tough enough as it is. Why cook dinner when you could order from Big Tony's?
|Great Food and NEW Store Opening!!!!
|Thu Feb 05 12:36:56 EST 2015
Smoked Brisket Cheesesteaks at Big Tony's Saturday 2/7/15 Seafood baskets and Hot Pastrami SANDWICHES ALSO THIS WEEKEND ONLY New store now open in Desoto at 2021 N. Hampton Rd Desoto TX 75115
|Catering Services:
|Mon Feb 02 15:21:00 EST 2015
Change it up for your next meeting or family party! Call us today to ask about our catering options.
|Something for everyone:
|Mon Jan 26 15:19:00 EST 2015
We're more than cheesesteaks! We have salads, chicken wings, burgers, and more! http://www.bigtonyswestphillycheesesteaks.com/Home/Menu
|What's cookin':
|Tue Jan 06 16:35:00 EST 2015
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|Happy New Year!
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Herb Kohl is one of the owners who has pushed for the proposals that have resulted in the ongoing NBA lockout, according to multiple reports. The popular narrative goes as follows: small-market owners are tired fo being doormats and losing money on their teams so they want a system that guarantees profitability and levels the playing field for them to compete with the Lakers and Celtics of the world. There's a lot of variation in that depending on who you talk to (for example, Ted Leonsis who owns the Washington D.C. Wizards is one such "small-market" owner), but that's the basic storyline being told by many of the reports.
If Kohl is on that side of the fence, though, it's a stunning reversal from public statements he's made in the past regarding what it means to own the Bucks. From Bucks blog Bucksketball:
"I'm not in this business to make any annual profits," Kohl said after dismissing General Manager Larry Harris in 2008. "The value of the asset fortunately has appreciated over the years. On an annual basis, it's a money-losing proposition. I'm in it because I love the sport, I love the competition and I love winning."via Herb Kohl's actions may be betraying his words |.
At what point does our current reality, the reality that has connected Kohl with a group of owners now looking to tip the basketball related income scales heavily in their favor while making other radical system changes, contrast with Kohl's traditional motives that don't involve making money, rather just competing and keeping the team he loves in Milwaukee?
Bucksketball notes that in the past, Kohl has been a staunch supporter of an increase in revenue sharing, citing MLB's model. So you can more easily understand this position than the caricature image of billionaire owners' gigantic maws trying to devour everything in existance. It's not unreasonable to want to be able to compete when you are at a disadvantage. You can argue the merits of whether or not good teams in big markets that make huge profits should have to share with their brethren, but this is at least something fans can agree with.
But then, as always, there's the money.
In that above quote, Kohl says he's not in this business to make any annual profits. And that's right decent of him. Having owners that just want to win for themselves and the fans really should be what professional sports, and in particular the NBA, is about. If you're trying to make a lot of money by owning an NBA team, to borrow a phrase, you're doing it wrong. That's not the path. So why then the revenue split tactics? Why shake the players down for 50/50 BRI or lower?
Furthermore, why isn't this an internal issue with the league? If you're looking to change the system, change the system. The players at any point after, say, August would happily have granted systemic changes in exchange for the BRI cut back. And a better revenue sharing system, a legitimate one that actually accounts for the unfathomable riches that come with each team's independent television deal, would more than have at least started the teams on the way back to profitability.
But again, we ask. What's this about, profitability or competitive balance? The league wants to maintain that it's about both. But in reality, what the NBA really needs is for its owners to decide a vision for their own ownership and stick with it.


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The bestselling author of "The Art of Racing in the Rain" presents a long-awaited new novel in which a boy trying to save his parents' marriage uncovers a vast legacy of family secrets.
In the summer of 1990, fourteen-year-old Trevor Riddell gets his first glimpse of Riddell House. Built from the spoils of a massive timber fortune, the legendary family mansion is constructed of giant whole trees and is set on a huge estate overlooking Seattle's Puget Sound. Trevor's bankrupt parents have begun a trial separation, and his father, Jones Riddell, has brought Trevor to Riddell House with a goal: to join forces with his sister, Serena, dispatch the ailing and elderly Grandpa Samuel to a nursing home, sell off the house and property for development, divide up the profits, and live happily ever after.
But as Trevor explores the house's secret stairways and hidden rooms, he discovers a spirit lingering in Riddell House whose agenda is at odds with the family plan. Only Trevor's willingness to face the dark past of his forefathers will reveal the key to his family's future.
Spellbinding and atmospheric, "A Sudden Light" is rich with unconventional characters, scenes of transcendent natural beauty, and unforgettable moments of emotional truth that reflect Garth Stein's outsized capacity for empathy and keen understanding of human motivation--a triumphant work of a master storyteller at the height of his power.
About the Author
Garth Stein is the author of the New York Times bestselling novel The Art of Racing in the Rain (and its tween adaptation, Racing in the Rain), How Evan Broke His Head and Other Secrets, Raven Stole the Moon, and a play, Brother Jones. He is the cofounder of Seattle7Writers.org, a nonprofit collective of sixty-two Northwest authors dedicated to fostering a passion for the written word. Garth lives in Seattle with his family and his dog, Comet.


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I'd keep them on the dry side during the winter - they can cope with cold, what they don't like is cold and wet.
LesleyK wrote (see)
... Cooked 2 chillies, 3 bolognaise doing cottage pies later (shedload of minced beef) and chicken curry and chicken in mushroom sauce tomorrow. Phew. Bet Dove's doing wonderful classy stuff...
... Cooked 2 chillies, 3 bolognaise doing cottage pies later (shedload of minced beef) and chicken curry and chicken in mushroom sauce tomorrow. Phew. Bet Dove's doing wonderful classy stuff...
Not really classy - a fish pie for tomorrow, (cod, smoked haddock, salmon and cockles, lots of parsley from the garden in a creamy sauce - fluffy Maris Piper on top) and a huge Daube of Beef for Saturday - (ox cheek, mushrooms, carrots, shallots, olives and a bottle of red wine) simmering away in the oven now - it'll take about 4 hours. There'll be plenty left for Monday and maybe Tuesday too!
House has had a quick wipe over downstairs and our new rug (delivered today - a real cowhide) looks fantastic on the polished parquet.
Cake and Picnic pie to bake tomorrow for the picnic on Sunday, plus a quick wipe over the bathroom. Friend isn't leaving Gloucs until late morning I think I'll have time to do what has to be done
These sites might be helpful
But if he's using rubble rather than buying in shingle, gravel etc for drainage at the bottom of a deep raised bed ...?
I don't suppose that Lidl said they would put proper labels on their plants, did they?
Right, let's think again ....................
Wherever did you find info on the web suggesting that they might be edible? That's dangerous
You need shallow 'beaches' sloping down into the water rather than shallow areas
I know this is a bit bigger than you had in mind, but it's actually a very small pond.
I think the friend misunderstood and it was a 'bush' tomato - i.e. a determinate variety and you don't take out the side shoots.
Hi, I'm not sure how successful a wildlife pond it could be if it stood 2ft tall - how would frogs, newts etc get into it and what about the essential shallow areas?
There's some info on this earlier thread http://www.gardenersworld.com/forum/wildlife-gardening/wildlife-ponds/2103.html
But get the right balance of plants and you don't need filters.


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Perspectives on the Future of Work: March 14th
oDesk's weekly column brings you the latest news on hiring and managing teams, freelancing, and the future of work. This week we discuss the blurry definition of telecommuters, 10 questions about the logistics of a distributed team, keeping your career on track regardless of where your office is, and the limitations of collaborating when you're not face-to-face. Read Full Article


text: Opened Ground: Poems, 1966-96 by Seamus Heaney buy used Used & Rare price $10.97 new from$19.80 shop with confidence SPECIAL SHIPPING CONSIDERATIONS FOR USED & RARE ITEMS. Please see the special considerations for shipping Used & Rare items, including extended delivery times, possible import duties & taxes. Delivered in 3-5 weeks Format: PAPERBACK Publisher: Faber & Faber Condition: The following ISBNs are associated with this title: ISBN - 10:0571194931 ISBN - 13:9780571194933 Seller Comments: 0571194931 Paperback book in good condition. minor water damage and crease to front and back cover. Thanks for your interest in our book! From the Publisher With lines so sharp you could shave yourself with them, Sweet Smell of Success is the smartest, most cynical American film of the 1950s. A scathing vivisection of the world of PR and journalism, Sweet Smell of Success defined the era it portrayed with this stunning screenplay.Burt Lancaster stars as J.J. Hunsecker, the most powerful newspaper columnist in New York (based loosely on Walter Winchell), who is determined to prevent his sister from marrying Steve Dallas, a jazz musician. He therefore covertly employs Sidney Falco (Tony Curtis, in one of the best performances of his career), a sleazy and unscrupulous press agent, to break up the affair by any means possible.


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Sore In Mouth Negative Elisa At 3 Months
Here's a taste of what TheBody.com has to offer on this topic:
Ask the Experts
Canker SoresDr,I was exposed to HIV via condom breakage on October 31'st 2009 and was tested out to 6 months via point of care finger prick test (INSTI). I tested at 6 weeks 3 months and 6 months however I am cocnerned of some symptoms which I am not sure are...
Response from Joseph McGowan, M.D., F.A.C.P.
North Shore University Hospital...From what you describe I would not be worried about having acquired HIV from that possible exposure in October. Having a negative test more than 6 months out is all that would need to be done. The canker sores preceded the exposure and... Read more »
3 times ELISA NEGATIVE , but WB POSITIVEHi Doc, I was taking my first ELISA test on 19Feb2009, and it was 3 months after I had sexual... Read more »
High WBC but negative ElisaDear doctor. 3.5 months (15 weeks) after a possible exposure, I took an Elisa test and it came back... Read more »
HIV Testing...plan early treatment and intervention, improving your chances of slowing down the progression of HIV disease. If you test negative, you may feel less anxious. By knowing your status, you can find out whether or not you can infect... Read more »
HIV Testing...takes from three weeks to two months for your immune system to produce HIV antibodies. During this "window period" you can test negative for HIV even if you are infected. If you think you were exposed to HIV, you should wait for two months... Read more »
What Is HIV?...HIV, medical care and certain drugs given during pregnancy can lower the chance of passing HIV to her baby. If you test HIV-negative you can take steps to stay that way. You can also avoid unnecessary worrying. What Tests Are Available? If... Read more »
An Overview of Epivir (3TC, Lamivudine)...use in combination with other antiretroviral agents for the treatment of HIV infection in adults and in children more than 3 months old. Although the practice has not received FDA approval, lamivudine may be used to prevent health care workers... Read more »
Connect With Others
Apthous Mouth sores (Canker Soars)
Posted by Anonymous, 2 Replies...I have been getting several Apthous mouth sores the last month. I got 2 in the last 4 weeks and I am going crazy!! I have a negative elisa at 5 months. I had protected sex with a prostitute in Cancun... Am I seroconverting? I am also getting... Read more »
Tset 1 year
Posted by Anonymous, 3 Replies...She may have cut me but i cant remember but i became very sick after with something that resembled mono.I had all std tests neg and mono neg. I had burning urination (folliculitis which i still have 1 year later) post nasal drip swollen glands... Read more »
Jackie, anyone, please help clear this up
Posted by Anonymous, 3 Replies...bloodwork and the WBC was 3.8 and lymphs low too! I asked if HIV was possible and they said yes. So I had ELISA which was neg. After that I had SO many HIV symptoms it blows my mind. White tongue, roof of mouth is white, easily bruised and... Read more »
OK. Again, more info on the 3 month window period.
Posted by Anonymous...majority." So, if the p24 antigen test miss the window, would elisa pick up the antibody since the current generation of the elisa assay is ultra sensitive?? In the past, you have also indicated that p24 antigen will not disappear unless antibody... Read more »
Resource Centers
Guides for People With HIV


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Neetu says Randeep and her are not serious!
By Kavita Srinivasan Sunday, 27 January 2013
"I can't say we are in a relationship it would mean we are read for a longer and more serious commitment. And I don't want to give any such impression", was the shocking statement made by Neetu Chandra to leading Indian daily when probed about her relationship status with Randeep Hooda. Does this mean things might be over between the couple Randeep and Neetu? Sources reveal that her statement is the result of a major tiff the couple had at Suniel Shetty's recent bash. However, an insider insists that the real reason behind Neetu's uncertain comments is because, "Randeep is someone who is not ready for a long-term commitment given the way his career is progressing. This has lead to a lot of confusion for Neetu who cannot stand firm on the status of her relationship and that's why she hasn't yet introduced him to her family."
An insider claims that the moment the rumours of marriage started doing the rounds, one got to see a different side to this couple. Neetu claims that she has a wonderful relationship with Randeep, but has no idea where it is headed. It seems like Neetu is pretty confused about the future of her relationship. Has it ended or will it go further?
Also in Bollywood News
- Let's admit guys, we have all been eagerly waiting for Anurag Kashyap's...
- The Bollywood actor may just have ended his single status! Read on for details
- The actor takes the advice of a friend seriously, find out who!
- The choreographer givers her side of the story


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Derek (my husband) and I are from Sydney, Australia, and are on a long overseas trip for our honeymoon. We're both active and friendly and take care of the places in which we stay. Derek is an engineer and owns a small bar in Sydney with a group of friends. I'm a linguist and work in marketing for an Australian university.
We've had an amazing trip so far: between skiing, sightseeing, visiting friends and volunteering on organic farms, we feel so lucky to share this time together. I'm 31 and Derek is 36.


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Michael Lee is a Norwegian American writer, performer, and youth worker. He has received grants from the Minnesota state Arts Board, the Metropolitan regional arts council, and Intermedia Arts. His work has appeared or is forthcoming in Ninth Letter, The Indiana Review, Phoebe, and Rattle, among other journals. His chapbook Refraction (winner of the David Blair Memorial Prize) is forthcoming from Organic Weapon Arts. He lives in Minneapolis, where he works as a youth counselor and arts programming coordinator for teens experiencing homelessness.
CQ: How does external reality interact with internal things such as memory and identity? Hannah Arendt has written of memory that it is "the mind's power of having present what is irrevocably past and thus absent from the senses, has always been the most plausible paradigmatic example of the mind's power to make invisibles present. By virtue of this power, the mind seems to be even stronger than reality; it pits its strength against the inherent futility of everything that is subject to change; it collects and re-collects what otherwise would be doomed to ruin and oblivion." How do the layers of reality and internal discourse present themselves in your poetry? Does this understanding of the presenting of invisibles manifest in your poems?
ML: I love that Arendt quote, and I think a great deal about how my external realities and my internal discourses and memories intersect. What's interesting to me about remembering is that the etymological opposite is not to forget, but is in fact dismember. Thus, when we remember something we are actually putting it back together. We are in essence fixing something, rebuilding it. Of course, when we fix a broken thing it will be different from its original form. Memory is like this too, but does that make it less real? Arendt seems to think it makes it more so. My poetry is largely about rebuilding my life, re-imagining it, both my past and my present, my contexts, how those affect my emotions, how my emotions affect how I perceive my contexts. Reality and internal discourse are very entangled in my life and my work, I think these intersections manifest in my poems. I try to manifest them, anyway. I once dreamt that a house I lived in was condemned and torn down. It made so much sense to me, I told all the friends I had lived with that "Big Blue got torn down," they believed me. I believed me. For two years I operated under the fact that place I had made so many memories had been destroyed, the place I was in my darkest depression and addiction, and then the place I got sober, was gone. Two years after learning about our house being torn down I drove through the neighborhood I had not visited since I left, just to see what had been built. The house was still there. I had this moment of wonder and fear. A sense of magic and the surreal. I had been so sure of the house's demolition, but it had been a dream. What else hadn't been real? Would it have been real had I never gone back to see that it wasn't? Was it still true to my life because of how it affected me? I sat staring at the house for ten minutes just questioning what the hell had happened and what it meant. I want to inhabit that space in my poems.
CQ: How does the question of identity tie into this felt expression of memory and the persistence of the past into the present?
ML: I think identity is hugely tied to our pasts. Where we come from and where we've been IS our identity. But how we remember where we've been also affects that; for instance, I didn't grow up with much. I'll never forget asking my father for a candy bar and him telling me, "we just don't have the money right now", my mom crying late at night and me intuitively knowing it was the bills, or the fact that almost all of my clothes were hand-me-downs from my cousins, purchased at Goodwill, or sewn by my mother. At the same time, my family had a car, a garage, a computer, a television.
I had a scholarship to a private school where my father taught, and all my friends at school were rich. Or seemed like it. I wonder now how much of my identity of being lower class comes from fact, or comes from comparing myself to the kids I went to school with. Maybe we were always better off than I thought, maybe it was just because my friends were rich and other kids at school made fun of me for being poor that I grew up with the identity of being lower class, and taking pride in that. Maybe we were middle class, maybe we had a few rough patches, but overall were never as bad off as I thought. I'm not sure, but my perceptions and memory of my past have absolutely shaped my identity, even if they might be exaggerated and defined more by the context of my past rather than a quantifiable reality. Had we possessed all the same things and I had gone to a different school, I may have felt rich. I may have been perceived that way, even. Context determines so much of perception and of identity.
CQ: Do you prefer the symbolic over the literal? How do you find a way to mix the two?
ML: At this point in my writing the narrator is almost always me, I'm still working through a lot of personal grief and trauma, and I feel I have to get these stories out/articulated before I feel ready to move fully past my own narration. I wouldn't say anything is fabricated, but I will be hyperbolic to create a certain effect. For instance, in my poem "Self-Erasure as Applied to My Memory" I write ". . . it was the year / I lived on a train and passed the rusted ship yards. . .", I didn't literally live on a train, but for a few years I did spend a great deal of time on trains, busses, planes, cars. I was wandering and felt closer to the road than to anywhere else. I wanted to capture that feeling in that line-I wasn't necessarily lost, but I had this constant feeling of leaving. I was always leaving somewhere, something or someone. That to me is one of metaphor's strongest qualities, the economy of language it allows, the meaning that can be packed into a single line. I don't have to explain anything, and often that leads me to prefer the symbolic over the literal. The symbolic is like a flash of light illuminating a room for a split second. This flash allows us to see what is there, but it's so quick that when it is gone we wonder if what we saw was real. Then we begin to imagine things that may have been there until we can't tell the difference. The further we get away from that flash, the stronger it gets in some ways. Memory is like that too, I think. Memory is the flash of light by which our pasts are illuminated. We see what is there, but the further we are from the source, the more we have to wonder if what we saw is the truth. In some ways, I think the symbolic is the truest documentation of memory.
CQ: In the poem "Self-Erasure as Applied to My Memory," you use the form to convey the message by erasing certain words in the second half of the poem. How did you come up with the idea to do this? How did you decide which words to erase? Which part did you write first: the "erased" part or the complete part?
ML: I had written a poem called "The Law of Halves as Applied to the Blade" about a friend of mine who was stabbed to death. I imagined if the distance of the blade from his body at been measured in halves it would never have reached his body-if you halve a distance between two points you will never reach the destination. In that world, the knife is still approaching him, and will be forever. I was trying to create a series of poems around this idea that explored the idea of vanishing, but never being gone. Of things always in motion, transpiring, but never fully coming to pass. My poem "The Pill" started as the idea of a pill halving itself inside the body, how it never fully leaves you, how addiction affects you forever. It was first a cantos poem measured in milligrams (80m, 40m, 20m, 10m, 5m). I might still write that poem. I still have drafts of it. "The Pill" ended up being a consolidated version of the first and last sections of that piece. My "Self-Erasure as Applied to My Memory" piece was born out of this series, you can see that in how the three sections are numbered 24, 12, 6 to denote age. With the erasure, I initially tried to cut half the words from the first to second sections and then again from the second to the third, however I saw a lot of lines I wanted, but that I couldn't make with that form so I abandoned the idea. It's still present in the poem, but the poem no longer adheres to the form, which I believe allowed it to be successful. I began the poem with the complete part and then cut down, which is closest to my process in general. I overwrite in most of my poems. The first section came out as four full pages, one stanza. Truthfully I didn't know exactly what I was writing when I started, I just started writing one evening and when I was done I looked at the first section, which came out almost in one sitting, and realized what I had, and what I needed to do. I worked on cutting the first section down and then spent the next month or two fine tuning the piece, erasing and tweaking. Each time I got to the last section, I would notice how a line could be better. I would have to then go back and change the previous two sections to allow it, or go back and see if the edit worked in each section. It was fun and challenging process, and when I had it, I knew I had it.


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#3 Sun Devils battle; unable to overcome #2 Seminoles at Greensboro Regional
Seven Arizona State University women's basketball players were named to the Pac-12 Women's Basketball All-Academic Team, announced by Pac-12 Commissioner Larry Scott on Friday.
Sun Devils and Seminoles Both Vying for spot in Elite Eight
Tempe, Ariz. � The Sun Devil women's basketball team has advanced to the Sweet Sixteen of the 2015 NCAA Women's Basketball Tournament following a 57-54 win over UALR on Monday night at Wells Fargo Arena.
Devils face UALR at Wells Fargo Arena on Monday at 6 p.m.
Tempe, Ariz. � A career day by redshirt junior guard Katie Hempen guided the Sun Devil women's basketball team past the Ohio Bobcats 74-55 at Wells Fargo Arena Saturday afternoon.
Sun Devils host Ohio on Saturday at 3:30 p.m.
TEMPE, Ariz. � Arizona State University was selected as one of 16 host sites for this weekend's First and Second Rounds of the 2015 NCAA Division I Women's Basketball Championship, the NCAA announced on Monday.
Sun Devils upset by Stanford, 59-56, in Pac-12 Tournament semifinals.
Winner advances to Pac-12 championship game on Sunday.
Devils will face UCLA or Stanford on Saturday at 6 p.m. PT/7 p.m. MT.
Devils will play Washington State or Oregon.


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