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Hawk ate my local Mockingbird
I can't believe it. I was looking out my kitchen window at my side yard overlooking the birdfeeder and the seeds scattered on the snow cover where the driveway is supposed to be. Lots of birds feeding on the ground when suddenly they all flew up and beat it. Suddenly I saw a hawk dive to the ground right by the feeder and it had the mockingbird, still screaming in its talons. Two seconds later there was blood on the ground.
I was so surprised I just stood there and gaped but of course for all that can't positively ID the hawk but I think a Coopers based on size. The Mocker was small compaired to the hawk. The hawk was much bigger than a sparrow hawk.
I have read reports of hawks geting birds at other peoples feeders at the Bird Watching Forum but always thought they must be in some rural area. Never thought I could see one here although I have seen Kestrals flying overhead sometimes and we have had Ospreys nesting near our town.
I really have been working hard to make this a wildlife garden but I had been feeding that Mockingbird all winter, it came right up to my kitchen door for suet handouts. I have TONS of Starlings and House Sparrows, I only wish the hawk had made a meal out of one of those!!
Now that the hawk has found my great local dining spot, what are the chances it will be back?
They tend to leave the locals alone near good nesting sites as the local populace will be the first wild game their young eat. That's why hawks nest in different places each year. They select the sites based on the population density of other nesting birds.
In winter they will feed as and when they can. It's hard for them too don't forget. In summer they will feed on insects and all sorts, the same as other birds. In winter they only have birds to eat.
Have you thought about leaving lumps of meat and fat out? I don't know if they will take it. I know if you live in rural areas and had a spot large enough (and in the countryside it need not be your property) you could set aside another feeding place for them. Buzzards and kites and etc would welcome carrion -roadkill etc. I wouldn't know about hawks.
Not that that is an answer to your question of course.
Sorry to hear about your mockingbird Rita. I've grown little attached to our local mockingbird too. I found prints in the snow this winter where a hawk had gotten a bird not very far from our house. I could see the marks where its wings swept the snow and feathers and a little blood in the middle. It took me a minute to figure out what the prints were and I was trying to figure out what could've gotten the bird since there were no tracks leading to it. I was surprised that would happen so close to the house. That was early in the winter and I haven't seen any hawks hanging around my bird feeders. But the mockingbird is the last to fly away when something startles the birds so I'd say he has a better chance of getting snuffed by a hawk. If you're putting feed on the ground out in the open away from the trees that might be making it a little easier for the hawk.
By feeding the birds you created a high concentration of tasty snacks for hawks. Cooper's and Sharp-shinned hawks have been moving into suburbia to take advantage of the high concentration of prey found near bird feeders.
"Now that the hawk has found my great local dining spot, what are the chances it will be back?"
Close to 100%. They are intelligent birds and will check places where they have been successful in the past. One hawk in my neighborhood (probably a red-tail) regularly checks all the palm trees for pigeon nests and hauls off the squabs to feed its own babies.
Hi Rita,
So sorry to hear about losing your mocker friend. It's truly a yin-yang sort of thing. How neat that you have a hawk.....but sad that it picked your favorite to eat. What did it look like? (the hawk). I have a female coopers that lives around here. She spends alot of time just watching my feeder. Sometimes, I just have to go into another room, and not watch what might be happening, and hope it's not one of my favorites. My hawk is a female......she's very light colored on her chest and abdomen and sort of a slate gray on her back and wings.
They're smart........your's will be back. Sorry again about your loss.
I'm going to have to agree with lazygardens on this. 100% chance he'll be back. I am very sorry about the loss of your mocker. I have wished for one for a long time, still no luck. As for hawks, I have more than one come to my tiny suburban yard that luckily only take pigeons! I am glad to have the hawks for that reason but would be very upset if they ate my nuthatches or woodpeckers or anything but a pigeon, starling or house sparrow! Someone mentioned providing seed near or in some cover.......I have 2 christmas trees in my backyard one laying down one upright-I throw seed into them & would you believe the hawk dive bombs into the upright one & just kinda hops into the one laying down?! Unbelievable!!! Quite a show.
You have a beautiful Coopers Hawk staking out your yard. This bird is a member of the Acciptiter Group of Hawks. They feed mainly on birds and some small animals too. You can distinguish this group by the longer tail. This adaptation allows them to fly very fast right through forests and tree branches to catch prey.
Provide a safer place for the feeder/song birds by placing your feeders near trees, shrubs or evergreens that provide cover. If you have a birdbath you can move that to an area where birds can find cover quick if a hawk is on the hunt. Birds fly and feed in flocks just for this reason, they can send up an alarm. Safety in numbers. Quickly birds dispurse and find cover anywhere they can if a hawk flys into the area where they are feeding or roosting. Hawk catches the straggler, the weak or the one that wasn't paying attention. It is especially sad to see this raptor with a tuft of red feathers in it's mouth but something that you should know is that hawks hunt completely on instinct and are not choosey about their prey, if it moves and has feathers it's fair game.
Sometimes I have no birds at my feeders for days a time, due to a close presence of our neighborhood Coopers. I've had a chance to watch this bird right through the window from a distance of several feet away. Sits right on top of my double feeder pole by the window. I've located a Coopers nest and watched a pair raise young. The Coopers Hawk has enjoyed many meals in my garden. I find feathers, feet, bills, heads and gizzards left behind. Hawks are very interesting to watch and an important part of the predator/prey cycle among birds.
I love to watch them, but hate to see them flying off with talons full of red feathers. VAL
I really missed that silly Mockingbird today. We had a routine. As soon as I appear at any of my kitchen windows or the back door, I was greeted by my mocker friend as he flys around peering into the house for me and his suet handouts. Unfortunately, no more.
The birds have been very, very jumpy today. Flying off in a cloud into the safety of the trees or shrubs far more than usual. Then, to make matters worse, there were lots of Seagulls flying around so who knows if the birds were looking for the hawk or just saw some big birds up above and panicked.
Most of my feeders are hung from my cherry tree in the backyard. The birdbath is under there also. Plus there are grapevines next to the driveway area that I use to throw feed out into the ground so that the birds do dive into there if they feel threatened.
The only feeder out in the open is a lantern style feeder out in open lawn, near my kitchen window and no birds have gone near that feeder all day.
To make matters worse, I have two Carolina wrens that live in my backyard. This morning I noticed one of them had no tailfeathers at all. They both had their tailfeathers when I last saw them yesterday afternoon. The snow is too high for any neighborhood cats to be around, not that we have many nor do they spend lots of time in my yard. But I think the sudden timing of a bird missing its tailfeathers right after a hawk had appeared in the yard is too much to be a coincidence.
I haven't seen any Cardinals all day, mostly lots of starlings and House Sparrows. I do have lots of Cardinals so I am fairly confident that most if not all are still around and they are just nervous and shy. I do realize hawks have to eat too but if it wipes out the cute backyard birds I have spent years trying to attract here, I am going to be one very unhappy camper.
I have been feeding the birds for years and this is the first time I have ever seen a hawk here. I am not all all sure of my hawk ID either but it seems most likely because of the birds size and choice of prey.
Where should I be looking for it? I have been looking at all the tall trees and neightbors roofs that I can see from out my windows!
Rita, I'm sorry that you miss your mocker friend. You may be able to see that hawk in a tree; however, the camoflage coloring blends the hawk into the backgroud. It's rather hard to find unless you see it fly and land there. The hawk will sit in trees, on fences or fence posts, on swingsets, and feeder poles. This predator will stay perfectly still not moving for a long time until some prey appears. These birds are very swift flyers and the attack happens really fast.
If you take down your feeders for a few days drawing no birds at all to your yard the hawk may move on to another area. I do this from time to time when the hawk seems to be hunting mainly in my garden. VAL
I have a hawk that is around all the time. In the past I have found piles of feathers in the yard, once last year I saw one take a young blue jay, and fly off with it with 3 jays chasing him. The other day I just put out mealworms for the bluebirds and a hawk came out of no where and snatched a junco just 30 feet from me.
Sorry about your mockingbird. I supposed that hawk really appeciated you fattening it up for him! I personally would love to see a Cooper's hawk in action, but it may be different if I had already gotten attached to his prey.
Someone suggested leaving out meat for the hawk. I doubt that would work. I worked at a raptor center for a while, and our birds were only fed whole animals. For one thing, they are used to their food having feathers on it, and they may not even recognise a clean piece of meat as being food. Some of them didn't even like being given already-dead food, and took a while before they would eat it. Also, they need the nutrients from the feathers, bones, internal organs, etc.
It is too bad hawks can't tell the difference between a starling and a mockingbird.
I periodically get a hawk or kestral swooping in trying to take one of the finches that use my feeders.
When I first moved into our house, I observed a hawk flying off with a starling in it's talons. Amazingly, the starling got away in midflight and was able to escape. I would love to see more hawks with starlings and house sparrows in their talons.
Rita, we lost a mocker to a Cooper's hawk last fall. We're on the cooper's route, and it's not uncommon to see every bird go to ground, with no movement, and we know he's present. The cooper's are beautiful birds, and just doing what they must do to survive. But, it is a yin-yang for us; the birds we feed become part of us, and seeing the hawk darting through trees is thrilling. Only once have I ventured out when he was hunting; generally just let him do what he does.
someone suggested to leave meat outside, I wouldn't do so as it will only attract rats and other varmin...
you will have to enjoy the hawk I think...but there is a good new, now that there is no mockingbird it will probably go for the starlings!!
good luck
Stephane Deshaies
Quebec, Canada
I have a new Mockingbird moved into my yard. Well, at least it visits here. I figgurred someone would show up, the territory is too good to go unclaimed. Unfortunately, this one is very spooky, easily scared away when I am outside. My old one was very tame and would often be within 2-3 feet of me no problem. But then he knew I would give him food so why not follow me around!!!
I saw a huge hawk swoop down over my mother's house recently, but I was in a spot where I only got a half second look at it. A few minutes later I was hauling trash to the street for pick up, and saw some tufts of grey and white, very soft fur on her lawn. I guessed this hawk had dined on some kind of mammal while perched in her crape myrtle tree, or pine tree. The fur was under the crape myrtle, but it didn't seem logical for it to be perched in that tree, since the pine tree is much, much taller. I don't know if the fur belonged to a cat or a rabbit, but it must have been some animal like that.
The other day a huge hawk/eagle got a dove across the street. I was looking at it through the binoculars and I guess it had knocked the dove out of the air and the dove hit the ground. The hawk came back later to get the dove. I swear it did a touchdown dance. The hawk was dancing around over the dead dove like it just scored a touchdown. Then finally flew off with it.
What a difference a passing summer makes. There are lots of Mockingbirds around here now, unlike this Spring. A nest of baby Mockers just fledged and I found the little ones in my cherry tree and in the hedgerow by the driveway today.
I haven't read all of the above replies, but let me just add that I live in the immediate suburbs of Montreal, in a place that is not rural at all anymore. Frequently, hawks (in my case, Sharp-shinned hawks, kestrels and an odd Northern shrike) hunt around my feeding spots in the winter. Breaks my heart too when they hit, but...
The Mourning dove is a very frequent local species that is captured by the Sharp-shinnned.
I usually only see the mockingbirds in my yard during the winter months when food is scarce. I do get quite a few hawks and regularly find piles of feathers around the yard. Lately it is has been mourning doves that the hawks have been feasting on. At first I thought the feathers were from mockingbirds, but after four or five cases I decided it must be something else. There just were not that many mockingbirds in the neighborhood.
Sorry to hear about the mocker but just keep in mind that it is the natural balance of things and we need the predators also to keep everything in check. Hawks are beautiful birds. Maybe you should consider not trying to encourage the birds to adopt such a predictable routine. I wonder if that makes them likely to be easy prey. Maybe your predictable routine was noticed by the hawk?
This is something I wonder more and more about. Feeders can be a wonderful thing. But are these, and esp. those with special designs to deter undesirable species, squirrels, etc., not simply sophisticated "hawk traps"? Which would be fine for hawks but... I mean when a perching bird has its head inside a hopper, it cannot see the approaching hawk. Or when it hangs uside down in one of those thistle feeder, can it really acts as promptly and efficiently to go and hide itself in the nearest bush? AFAIAC, I take care to scatter seeds on the ground, under a thick cedar hedge that the alerted birds can simply jump up to, quickly out of sight and under cover.
I have heard that hawks are attracted to feeding stations. It certainly makes sense that the hawks would notice a large flock of congregating birds. I think you are right Rose that maybe we are putting them at a natural disadvantage with some of the feeders.
I notice that birds are very aware of what goes on in the yard. I had some tree swallows nesting in my yard and watched a house sparrow go into the box. I later found the mother dead on the nest. The birds were very agitated that day and they all seemed to be watching as if spectating. I'm sure that hawks are equally aware of their surroundings.
As far as I am concerned the Hawks are welcome to all the House Sparrows and Starlings they can eat. Unfortunatly, since it was a difficult Winter last winter, the Mockingbird got nabbed because he would hang out by the suet. I have never seen another hawk here, only that once. Hawks have to eat too, I just wished it picked one of the undesirable birds.
I Have two parrots and often bring them outside so they can get some vitamin d from the sun.Every year the parrot magazines have a sad story or two of someone's cherished pet getting nabbed by a hawk. Sometimes the bird is only a foot or two away. I guess a screened porch is the solution.
There was a red tailed hawk watching a downy woodpecker nest in our park . I left for vacation for a month so I don't know the outcome.Pidgeons seem like such an easy alternative and we have a ton of those.
"Hawks are welcome to all the House Sparrows and Starlings they can eat."
It's strange to hear those words from birdlovers.
I had a Starling and a Mockingbird that were living in my house. I like both of them, but the starling is my favorite bird. Compare to the mockingbird starlings are much less agressive and much smarter. They also eat tons of bugs that makes them the most beneficial birds for nature.
Here is one thing that you can build from old CD (or use those what AOL send by mail), it looks like it should help to keep hawks away. I going to try it myself.
Here what description say
" Made from a couple old CDs mounted on a wooden "T" it is attached to the loft facing the sky. The theory is that raptors see them as large eyes and will stay high in the sky and not dive at the birds on the loft. The fanciers I know that have tried them report that they are effective and do help. Anything is worth a try so this spring they will be made and on the loft."
Here is a link that might be useful:
Not sorry at all, Hawks are still welcome to all the House Sparrows and Starlings they can eat. House Sparrows and Starlings wreck havoc with our native cavity nesters. There are also only a few Mockingbirds compaired to tons of Starlings. Starlings might eat bugs but they can strip badly needed winter food resources and indeed are so sucessfull because they eat most anything and nest most anywhere.
"Starlings might eat bugs but they can strip badly needed winter food resources"
Starlings should migrate south from your area in the winter. I do not think you have starlings there in wintertime.
"nest most anywhere"
Not anywhere, only around people. You will never find them in the wood, where most of native cavity nesters live. You want attract those birds to your yard (where is strange place for them to live), but then you have starlings and house sparrows on the way. It makes people mad.
In the Europe, before chemicals time, people was attract starlings to villages where they had gardens, fields and they had a big help from those birds. I the country where I from people do not say "birdhouse", birdhouse there have name "starlinghouse". This is because people use to made birdhouses only for starlings.
For some reason starlings want live only with people. I think, this why God made those birds - to help people with wreck insect on the fields.
Now we have the chemicals, don't need starlings anymore.
Any way, hawks don't read forums and they don't care much what we thinking about their hunting preferences. They don't know what "native bird" is too. Starlings and house sparrow is not only two species that you can find in America and Europe. Lot of another birds and animals live on both sides of Earth. For sure, they were only in one continent one time. Swallows live in US and in the Europe. This is no way that nature made same bird in the two different places, so where they are native and where not? If we find out this, should we try to take them out from their "not native" place too?
Starlings do seem to migrate as you see them mixed in with large flocks of grackles and redwings in the Fall. But they definately don't ALL migrate as I have plenty of them around all winter long.
Woods around here are not some pristine wilderness but rather areas surrounded by houses, people and all that goes with population. That hardly means we have no cavity nesters as Woodpeckers, chicadees, tree shallows, nuthatches and the like nest around here. They unfortunately have to compeat with House Sparrows and Starlings for nest sites. Bluebirds are rare on Long Island but House Sparrows are enemies of Bluebirds and Tree Swallows. Starlings are enemies of Purple Martins and Woodpeckers.
Starlings and House Sparrows are not Native and don't belong here. Are they ever going to go away? Of course not. But there are too many of them and if they can feed our hawks then at least some good comes of them.
Area where you live explain everything, in NY area you will not see many wild birds. Pigeons and House Sparrows - those birds we will see if we chose to live in the big city. If we live in the small town, we will have starlings too (but less pigeons and house sparrows). If we want to see only wild animals and birds, we should live out of city and town.
Where I live now (far from big cities), I see only few starlings coming in the morning to sign on the power line. Later on the day, they are doing somewhere. Also they nesting in my born (and I happy about this!), but after baby fly out, they are all going to stay different place.
I can say that I see here a lot more wild birds then starlings (house sparrows and pigeons don't live here at all). Many mockingbirds, bluebirds, bunch of some kind small birds (maybe song sparrows?), occasionally I see woodpeckers. We have hawks to, and this is only one bird that I am not happy to see around.
I not really know all birds around here, but starling is very small percent of all local bird population and they not bother them at all.
If those birds don't want to live in city area, this is not starlings and house sparrows fault.
In Manhattan you will see only pigeons so who should we blame for this?
I'd rather have hawks than starlings. Hawks are native, beautiful, graceful birds.
Starlings are fine. Better than nothing, but that's about all you can say. I don't want to kill them all, or anything like that, but if they can feed the hawks, all the better.
Here ina suburb that's smacked flat up against a big city, I still get goldfinches and cardinals and woodpeckers, and all are more welcome than starlings.
Alexsandra, I think that rather than all moving out to the country, (which is getting built up enough) we should concentrate on making the cities pleasant enough that the native species can survive.
I used to live in very big and very old city, it is one of greenest cities in the Europe - many parks, many trees on every street, no towers (most buildings have 4-5 floor), no big traffics, but there we had only pigeons and house sparrows. It was not even starlings in there. Some chickadees and swallows. Around parks, we had gray crows and magpies. It always was on this way and nobody never complaint about this. People understand that one species of birds we have to live with people, and another species preferred to live in the wood. You can't expect that every kind of bird will come to the city. Same as that's "city" birds will never go to the wood (not because some kind of aggressive birds don't let them do it - it's because wood is not their habitat) . You may see occasionally wild birds come to the city, but you can't expect the big population to live permanently in there.
Maybe because in US everything is not that old, most city areas was build not long time ago and was build very fast compare to Europe, people here not use to live with "city" birds yet. I think myself that even if all pigeons, house sparrows and starlings will gone one day, in the cities will be no more wild birds than is now. In the very big cities will be no birds at all. And this is not good. Maybe people in Manhattan want to feed somebody too.
About hawks - bird eats another birds. Not to attractive situation for me to like them to much. I respect those raptors (or any another animal) who not makes food from their own species.
AleksandraS, people in North Am. cities have a right to the biological heritage that the native birds and other animal species represent. And small city gardens CAN absolutely attract - I can testify it - many desirable native species of birds. These often have travelled some migratory routes for thousands of years, and no urban development will really change that. Consider the thousands of native migratory birds that kill themselves against the lighted towers at night in the big modern cities! Of course, no tower development will retain these to nest, and I don't believe even the House sparrows either. But city life, like the previous poster wrote or implied, is not limited to downtowns, and city dwellers CAN have access to something else. We here even encourage them to do so. Many fascinating urban native species around in my own area: Chimney Swifts, Nighthawks, long-established colonies of Purple Martins (that have to fight all the time to nest against the sparrows and starlings... and ought not to!), Kestrels, Great Horned Owls...
When I talk about city, I mean that area of city where only buildings are. Private houses and gardens - this all associate to me with village area. This way was where I used to live, so here with all that city/village mixing I may get confuse with names.
Species, similar to Purple Martins (City martin, House Martin, Chimney swallow) live in the European cities/villages too and they survive very good with House Sparrows and Starlings in there. In addition, Martin's Houses can be build with starling-resistant entrance holes what seems as good solution.
As I said in another post, people in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Europe build "starling houses" for starlings, so maybe because it starlings have their own place to live and they don't need to fight for nesting place with another species.
If Starlings and HS really that mean, aggressive, terrible pests, why in the Europe they have absolutely opposite reputation?
For example, here what we can see on UK internet site:
"Many of our common birds are declining. Birds such as the starling, house sparrow and song thrush are all struggling and it would be a huge loss if they were to disappear from our countryside." http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/about/birds/birds_boxes.shtml
Richard Bashford, Big Garden Birdwatch co-ordinator, said: "The RSPB is delighted with the level of participation for this year's event. This demonstrated the interest and concern people have for the birds around them. It is essential that surveys like this continue to gather important scientific information if we are to reverse the decline of our best loved garden birds, such as the starling and house sparrow."
I have to say, AleksandraS, that I find this to be irrelevant. We are all Homo sapiens: one same species.
The House sparrow and Common Starling here are introduced species that behave, like in many cases of man-introductions (whether plants or animals), in a highly agressive manner towards native bird species of here, in NORTH AMERICA (forgive my stressing, but maybe there is simply a misunderstanding on the focus and geographical concern of this forum). This agressive manner is very well-documented. Those two species thrive to survive; we do not HATE them for that. It's just that by doing so here (by Man's fault) they do a lot of harm to local species, part as they are of local ecosystems. And it just so happens that these are also highly gregarious species (hence probably their survival on this continent) and that providing a nesting box for these in your garden will not refrain them at all to nest ALSO in that other box you put up for the swallows! HS and Starlings are essentially non-migratory here: they stick to human dwellings all year long. Therefore, they are the first to occupy the nesting spots, before all the native migratory species arrive in the spring. These are just ecological facts.
I am sorry, AleksandraS, that I erroneously took this forum for the North Am. NATIVE plant one, where I also post. So my remark about the geographical focus of this forum is completely irrelevant.
But I do stand by the rest of the content of my post.
Its really hard to believe that some one (Europe) is worried about the decline of house sparrows and starlings in their area. Too bad the U.S. can't ship Europe a bunch of ours.
I think if there were not so many starlings and house sparrows in our urban there we would have greating numbers of other (native) birds in the cities.
We are all Homo sapiens: one same speciesÂ
When I said that we all nonnative in here, I meant that we (people from Europe, etc. or descendants of Europeans) is nonnative to America too.
Not to long time ago, when it was no animal protections laws in this country, here was a lot of harm done to American wildlife by "nonnative" humans.
Or European Colonizers/Indians conflict, it was very brutal and did a lot more harm than that nonnative/native birds conflict.
Richard, I had a BIG surprise too when I found out that somebody donÂt like the Starlings and House Sparrows!
Try imagine such situation  you come to visit to another country and see that many people in there is really hate, shot and gas your favorite kind of bird that you feed at your home and happy to see it coming to your yard. IÂm sure it will make you feel very bad. Same bad I feel when I hear about cruelty to starlings and house sparrows.
Back to the topic subject  here is pic of my mockingbird on his ÂbirdfeederÂ, he donÂt look to good at this time because he is molting right now, but I hope that soon he will be very pretty one.
Worry about him too - some hawks live around here. I hope that he will stay on the front of my house as he doing this now - between two of my dogs he should be safe from hawk attack.
You are a professionnal bird photographer, right?
Smash hits, esp. the 1st one!!
That the colonizers did more harm to the native people(s) than introduced animal or plant species to the native ones is highly debatable. From the human point of view perhaps... Another thread/debate for another forum I guess...
Rita: Glad to hear your mockers are back. Everyone has their favorites I guess.
Aleksandra: I can understand you feeling sad to hear that people dislike the favorites from your homeland. On the other hand, any non-native plant or animal that is introduced to a new ecosystem has the potential of causing serious problems. They throw the ecosystem out of balance because either the environment is too conducive to their survival or that the natural predators are missing. Maybe in Europe there are more aggressive species that keep these two species in check. Or, as you say, perhaps, the large amount of suburban landscape in North America makes life way too easy for them. There are many other examples of this kind of overpopulation. For example, I like rabbits, but they have caused major problems when they were introduced to Australia. I don't think you should take this issue personally. Thanks for bringing another point of view to the forum.
Yesterday and today I have been seeing a hawk flying overhead. It just flys in lazy circles taking advantage of the backdraft and most likely looking for an available meal on the wing. The Starlings sure did send up a clatter when they saw the Hawk. Not much chance of sneeking up on anything now.
I've lived in a suburb just above NYC for the last 33 years. We never noticed hawks until about 3 or 4 years ago, when they started going after the birds at my feeders. I lose about 3 birds a winter now to what I think are Cooper's hawks. They will even stay in the yard to pluck the feathers before eating the bird.
I don't normally have mockingbirds at the feeders during the winter, but 2 showed up in January and were constant visitors until the hawk got them. I felt particularly bad about those losses.
We now see hawks all the time, and not just in southern Westchester. I've spotted them in the Bronx also. Part of the problem is the disappearance of the resident crow populations we once had. Even a single crow will go after a hawk and chase it out of the neighborhood. I can tell just by the sounds of the few crows that are around, when there is a hawk in the area. Sometimes, I'm outside when I see the hawk(s) approaching, just to check out my feeding stations.
The hawks are beautiful, amazing, creatures with as much of a right to survive as any other. If I have been a bit too successful in attracting birds to my yard, and I don't want to see nature in the raw right on my deck, then it is probably time to stop feeding for awhile, and let the populations disperse.
This was very interesting reading. I live in the country and I have never seen a starling or sparrow in my yard, but a few miles away in a small town, there are many of them. Truthfully, it wouldn't matter to me if they were here. Had just always thought it odd that they aren't. Do get a lot of other birds here tho...including hawks, owls and ospreys in the winter. Many herons and egrets too. I like them all.
MrsT: I agree that you are probably attracting the hawks with feeding stations. I, personally, love birds of prey. They eat rodents as well as song birds. I think the increase in diversity is actually a good thing. It speaks to the health of the ecosystem.
There are more Mockingbirds here now than ever before. Just now I was watching a Mockingbird eat some of the red berries off a Nightshade Vine. A Catbird was there eating them two. Last week I saw six Mockingbirds in the Nightshade at one time, so there are alot of them Around. Lots of berries here for them to eat.
I felt the same way when I saw a raptor take one of my sparrows, even had to go cry a bit, but then I realized that they have to eat too. But since my sparrows take dirt baths in the front yard, right in the open, I put up some willow sticks (teepee like) and they seem to be more protected since I don't think the raptors will manuver through the sticks. But I tell you, looking into the eyes of that raptor was such a magnificent sight - feeling many emotions at that moment!!! Nature is wonderful, cruel at times, but so totally awesome no matter what. Ruth
I just wanted to say thank you for all the postings under this subject starting in Feb of last year. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them. Much of the information helped me to understand the hawk and feelings on both sides. I too cried when a dove I called to feed bread to came and was taken.
How do you attract crows? Sounds like a good idea. We have some nearby that still hang out where the old drive in movie theater turned outdoor flea market was. That's all been torn down along with most of the woods and the little bit of woods that's left now is up for sale. They paved paradise and put up a parking lot. When I first went into the new Publix they built there Joni Mitchell was singing that song on the radio.
The Vines are "weeds" that sprout up everywhere locally. The vines have purple flowers and then set berries that turn from green to a bright orange red in mid summer. All sorts of birds will eat the berries, especially Catbirds and Mockingbirds but the berries are poison to people.
The Poor Yard Mockingbird has been going crazy lately, scolding and fussing. Flocks of Starlings have come around to eat the Pokeweed Berries and the Mockingbird has been garding his territory and diving them trying to get them to leave. Of course, there are so many of them that it's not working and I can hear the birds frustration as he sits and scolds!
This thread has gone for quite some time. :) We have had several "families" of Mockingbirds in our "family" and, unfortunately, our neighbor's cats are the predators. :( Our former neighbor's cats never did any harm to the birds but the newest neighbor's cats are just plain horridcoming in our yard despite umpteen measures to deter them, breaking off prized plants, etc. and, of course, eating Mockingbird babies, tearing apart their nests, etc.! ARGH! Our little Mockingbirds have been wonderfulthey keep other obnoxious-type birds out of our yard by dive-bombing them. They've been super friendly to our little Shih Tzu dog (amazing, isn't it?) and would come up to our windows and squabble when hungry. DH and I keep a large supply of mealworms on hand at all times for them (I even painted a large dish that sits upon an overturned painted pot we call the "worm pot" just for their feeding!). These friendly birds have been our backyard (and sideyard) buddies. Whenever we find their feathers on the ground, it is a sad day indeed. They live in harmony with the Hummingbirds in our yard as well, and have had no challenges with the Butterfliesit has just been those !@#$% cats!~
And, no, my dog does NOT deter those cats either. :(
So, I do feel for you. Sometimes we get a hawk flying overhead, we does bring a spot of fear to my heart as my dog does sort of resemble a fluffy rabbitDH used to raise Hawks so it isn't like we are not Hawk lovers or anything
Tdogmom: Have you talked to your neighbor about the cats? There have been plenty of heated threads on here that you can refer to with lots of advice on how to rid your yard of wandering cats. In the end, it is not fair of your neighbor to inflict his pets on your yard and hobby.
I saw piles of feathers on and off through the years and always thought the neighborhood cats did it until just recently when I saw hawks doing it. Just think...all that time I blamed the cats for something they weren't even doing. I wasn't gardening or bird feeding until just a few months ago so that's why I only recently took notice of who was actually doing it. I spoke to other people about it and they always thought it was the cats too, but were guessing as they never actually saw it. Take a closer look...see who is actually doing it...put a camera out there if you can or watch from a hiding place. You may be quite surprised at what you see.
I found a pile of feathers this morning too in the middle of the yard nowhere near any shrubs but in the lawn so I know it wasn't a neighborhood cat. So I am wondering if a hawk got a bird. The birds are certainly around all day as I put seed out for them. Plus I saw hawks flying high overhead this summer and fall. Can't say if they fly overhead now because I don't spend much time outdoors in the winter.
Newyorkrita, from my observations...sometimes the hawk flies at the bird and clutches it in his talons and then takes it somewhere else to pluck the feathers out. The hawk doesn't always eat the whole bird in one place. I watched a hawk carry a bird to a few different places, eating at each stop. I think the hawk would eat the whole bird in one place if it felt safe from intruders there.
Jutesbirds...Check out the "Mean old (territorial) mockingbird" thread at the BirdWatching Forum.
Sitting in the front window this afternoon, I looked out and saw a fat robin on the pourch(the first one this year). Thought about putting out more seed when I saw something move in the large yew on the other side of the pourch. A hawk came out of the bush and both birds took off. I watched for a momet while they circled, with the little robin in the lead that was shrinking quickly. The hawk of course caught the robin and flew away. That robin should have waited a few more weeks before returning here. I think now that shrubbery may be good cover but not always- and maybe feeders are hawk smorgesboards!
I am standing guard in my backyard at this very moment trying to protect a nest of three phoebees, I came home the other night, and a hawk (cooper's) was sitting in a tree that is right next to our house, with the nest of phoebees under the eave. I shouted and threw my sack of groceries at him I was so mad, I ran him out of the yard, if it wasn't against the law I would kill him I was so mad. This is the second batch of babies for these phoebees, the first batch was probably killed by the hawk or a snake, so they built up high on our house. I understand they have to eat, too, but why poor defenseless babies??????
It is hard to get used to seeing this kind of thing. I have one to two hawk attacks a day in my backyard. We have deep woods behind my house and most of the time, even with the police around (Bluejays) they can still swoop in absolutely silent and surprise everybody!
At first I was upset, but then I counted. The number of birds that get to eat and enjoy my feeders vs. those that perish I found it to be about 90% in favor of the song birds. It was about 15min ago that a red tailed hawk swooped into the yard, this time the blue jays were successful with the warning and the hawk got nothing. We have hosted a ton of baby birds this season so that was a plus.
I DO NOT like it when I'm out there when it happens (only one time so far!) and if I could stop myself from watching it might make it less upsetting. But they are amazing birds!
Hawks are amazing birds. Babies of all species are a major food source in all ecosystems. Think of all the national geographic specials you have seen! In the ocean, the major food of whales (plankton) is made up of the multitudes of tiny offspring of many other fish. Many animals that are prey tend to have many offspring to counter this. You are right, songbirds will be fine despite hawk attacks as upsetting as it is to watch. You just have to tell yourself that predators are natural and necessary to the ecosystem. That is one of the arguments against artificial feeding of birds. You are attracting hawks. They are no different from the songbirds. Once they notice a food source, they will keep coming and feeding in that area. The concentration of birds at feeders attracts hawks. So, you might want to consider trying some other strategies like using natural foods like berrying shrubs and seed plants. Not to say that they don't concentrate birds as well, but they do provide cover for the birds that artificial feeders do not. They also spread the birds because the food is not all in one place which keeps the risk of disease lower also. Just my 2 cents.
Well starlings have at least two defenses against hawks that other birds do not have. First, the dense flocks that they form when they spot a hawk are very effective against airal predators and often succeed in confusing and confounding them. The second is that their flesh possibly may be toxic. People who have eaten starling meat sometimes report mouth rashes and irritation afterwards. These two factors may be why they are not as frequently targeted by hawks (they may be frequently targeted only due to their abundance) as some other, less abundant species.
I live in a condo with a small "backyard" (it's a concrete slab with a fence around it.) I put a bird feeder out and for a while, it was fine. All the birds were happy... Then a hawk moved into our area. That was fine. He wasn't around very often, so the birds didn't really mind. Recently though, I've been seeing him over and over on my fence, watching the bird feeder.
I'm trying to make the place as undesirable as possible for him. Whenever he lands, I don't even give him a chance to settle down. I run outside with a blanket and throw it at him while hissing and yelling. I want him to think of me as a threat, so he'll stay away. I also set out some CDs ontop of the fence, as a poster upthread stated. I'm tempted to put some barbed wire on top of my fence, but I don't want to hurt the sparrows that come here.
I don't begrudge the hawk it's meal, but it has to get one elsewhere. Not at MY feeder.
Ah ha! I figured out a good way to drive the hawk off..call it a mechanical crow. :)
It's actually a remote control airplane. When there's a hawk outside, grab your controller and run out, making as much noise as possible. Turn on the controller and start up the plane. You need a plane that's FAST with good maneuverability though. And it needs to be large enough to intimidate the hawk. Anyway, when the hawk is flying away from you, chase after the hawk with the plane. Don't hurt the hawk with it, just keep chasing it as well as you can while screeching. (Well, the screeching is optional.) Don't let it land anywhere nearby, either. Pursue it until it's a safe distance from your feeder. If the hawk comes back, repeat the process.
Also...leave the airplane out where the hawk can clearly see it, somewhere close to the bird feeder. The little birds won't see it as a threat, but the hawk will probably associate it with danger.
The problem with this idea is that it assumes that you will be around each time the hawk decides to come around. I really doubt he will be put off that easily. Also, I'm not sure how safe your idea is for the hawk. I believe that the law prevents the harassment of native birds, but I may be remembering or misinterpreting it. Hawks are good for the ecosystem. I know it is upsetting to watch, but maybe you should eliminate your part in this whole thing. By putting out feeders and encouraging a large number of songbirds to congregate, you are encouraging the hawks.
I am in northern Alberta. I live in a boom town that has increased in population about 10% per year for the past 30 years. A number of years ago we had hardly any magpies. Not there are dozens. I guess they have been attracted by the increasing civilization.
A few thoughts go through my mind as I read this thread.
I wish we had hawks here during the winter season. We have plenty of the corvids especially ravens. I know the hawks could not take the ravins. They don't have any natural predators unfortunately. I was at the local dump yesterday and there are thousands there. I am not fond on any of the corvids because they all to a greater or lesser degree raid other birds nests. We have so many wonderfull songbirds and other small birds nesting here. I just hate the thought of anything preying on their nests. I especially dispise cowbirds although we don't have many of them. Having said this I have to admit we do have blue jays and occasionally gray jays coming to our feeders.
To get back to the topic I would like to see some natural control on our corvid population. We do have some hawks here during the breeding season but they don't seem to make any difference in the corvid population. I think they mainly rely on rodents.
Somebody said there are no starlings up north. Here is the data we got on our Christmas Bird Count this year for all the relevant birds we have talked about: Gray jay 8, blue jay 46, black-billed magpie 71, ravens 1351, European Starling 25, and house sparrow 67. There were no crows but we do have lots during the summer.
I agreee with most of you when you say we need hawks. There are not very many of them overall. We do have eagles up here but they are few in number as well and the magpies and ravens harass them unmercifully. I have a touch of envy when somebody says they have a resident hawk all the time. Most of you have many more birds at your feeders than we do. I really think everybody should be at least resigned to the thought that another bird has been fed when you lose a few birds to hawks AND I think we should all be happy when some of the birds mentioned above are taken.
Why should I be happy? Just because a bird isn't a songbird doesn't mean it's undesirable. It's not the bird's fault it was born a magpie or a sparrow and now a pretty little songbird. I don't like the look of fear on those poor birds' faces whenever the hawk comes around. It's so sad to watch them peck worriedly at their food, only to fly away at the slightest noise. They're probably hungry. Like I said, I don't care if the hawk eats. I don't want him at my feeder, though. I want the birds to feel safe there.
The hawk hasn't been back since I flew that airplane at it, vonyon. However, just to be safe, I called wild-life control on it today. I told them I was worried abut the local pets in the area, since there are a lot of people and little dogs/cats around, and the hawk doesn't seem scared of humans. They said they'd be out to get it on Thursday. Plus, they told me to call any time I see a new hawk...so I'm going to keep this a hawk free zone.
Ridiculous premise dilandu. That's why hawk populations are down as they are......from ignorant farmers in the Pampas of Uruaguay applying pesticides and killing nearly 20,000 Swainsons, to a small minority of trigger happy hunters afield in the fall and now homeowners such as yourself who feed birds and would "KILL" them if they could because they're too blind to see the forest from the trees.
Thinking such as yours is dangerous. Extremely dangerous.
I never said I would kill the hawk. I wouldn't kill any animal, period. The toy airplane I flew at it was far from dangerous to the hawk... I kept far enough behind it and low enough to make sure that I wouldn't hit it..and it was made out of the same stuff nerf toys are.
Animal control came and took him away on Thursday. It was easier than I thought it would be... he doesn't fly away unless a human is really up close to him. They just shot him with a tranquilizer, and they took him to be relocated.
The laws might be different where you are, elly_nj. It might also depend on what ACO you use. I used United Wildlife Control. http://www.unitedwildlife.com/FAQ.html
You can see right there that they list tranquilizing as one of their methods of animal removal.
A couple months ago I had a hawk that decided it liked my backyard and moved in. The problem was, we raised rabbits and we just couldn't have a hawk around. We took the rabbits outdoors sometimes and I didn't want the hawk attacking them. So we called our local wild life control and they came and got it.
Yes, they do use tranquilizers. I went out with them so I could show them where I saw it and I watched them shoot it down with one. I don't know who told you they didn't, Elly, but they were wrong.
Wow, this is just simply amazing to me. Dilandau where are you located? I just can't imagine them coming out and tranquilizing a bird of prey for just doing what comes naturally. I thought that hawks were protected in some way, but apparently, I'm wrong. How unfair to the poor bird! You have said that you wouldn't kill anything, but what if the relocation in some way ends up harming the bird?
With all due respect, I don't understand why you feel that the songbirds have more of a right to eat than the hawk. You know, you may be sorry later when you're area is overrun by the prey animals that hawks eat. I hope you will do some research into the food chain and ecosystems. I guess for me, balance is more important. I'd rather change what I am doing than to eliminate such an important part of the system.
Have you considered an alternative to artificial feeding? You could plant berrying plants and seeding flowers and grasses to attract birds. By doing so, you will spread the songbirds out and give them a fighting chance against the hawk. You would also be providing cover and nesting sites for them.
Did you ever even think that running that airplane at the bird "stressed" him? It's winter and food is hard to come by, yet you feel that you're doing the right thing? That hawk could very well die because of your actions.
Presposterous (i.e. your line of thinking). Zappa had it right........he once said something to the effect that anywhere you find yourself in this world, there's bound to be more stupid people than you think. Thanks for confirming Frank's thoughts dude.
I'm in Ohio, Vonyon. Hawks might be protected, but not when a whole neighbourhood agrees to get rid of them. The hawk problem has been going on for a while. I live in a condo, and there are old people who feed the birds that don't want to see their little friends being ripped to pieces by a hawk. Others were worried about their pets. There have been meetings about the hawk and talk of getting rid of it. I am not the only one who took action against the hawk. An old man said that he would hit it with a baseball bat if he ever saw it in his area. It was voted unanimously that we had to get rid of the hawk, but our condo committee continued to put off removing it. I finally took it into my own hands.
You may consider prey animals (that aren't songbirds) to be pests, but to us the hawk was the pest. The relocation was the best we could do for it. The feeders were causing the hawk to become lazy anyway...it would just stand around and wait for food, instead of hunting for it.
What happens to it beyond that, I don't know and I really don't care. And I will do it to every hawk that ever shows up in this condo area. Unfair or not, hawks aren't welcome. The world is full of birds, it can learn to hunt elsewhere.
Tranquililzing and relocating hawks is illegal. And cruel. And wrong. (This is apart from relocating wildlife in general, which in many states is illegal and always cruel and wrong.
I missed the part that on the web site that says he can dart wildife. He says he uses "tranquilizing techniques," but does not really explain. I would love to know where he is located. I have questions.
Here are his credentials:
Question: What qualifies you to provide wildlife control services?
Answer: I have been in business for myself for 26 years. Of which time, I have been a professional trapper for six years. Every job that we have undertaken has been able to be solved, and the professional trappers we use have years of wild animal control experience.
Scary. What's more scary is that people hire these guys, instead of fixing the real problems. But then it is not in their interest for homeowners to be educated on the subject and deal with the real problems (capping chimneys, taking down food that attracts unwanted guests, etc.).
The Humane Society of the US offers excellent advice on dealing with wildlife. Here is their site.
Dilandau: Let me clarify something...I wrote "you may be sorry later when you're area is overrun by the prey animals." I didn't write anything about them being pests. You have inferred that. I don't consider prey animals pests as long as they stay outside my house. If I have a problem with them, I usually eliminate the food source that is attracting them, and then they go elsewhere. I'm suggesting that you eliminate the feeders, thereby eliminating the abundant food source of the hawk, and he will go elsewhere. The man that goes after a hawk with a baseball bat will find his actions are illegal. He also may find the hawk to be a formidable opponent.
Just take a minute to think about the bigger picture. Hawks play an important role in the system/food chain. They eat songbirds, but they also eat mice and other small mammals. You may be surprised by how many mice/rats are attracted by the bird seed that the songbirds are dropping in the area. Then when the mice/rats show up, the predator will be gone, and the mice/rat numbers will increase unchecked. Then, there will be a need to exterminate them, simply for filling their little niche in the system--cleaning the area of rotting seed. Of course, then there will be a justification for that. Each animal in the system plays a role. The role of the predator is to keep the numbers of prey animals down which helps to keep disease in check.
Next month, I suspect there will be a question here about why the birds that are coming to your condo's feeders have infected eyes and other diseases. But then again, I suspect that, in the end, this is more about the will of humans and preserving the human enjoyment than it is any real concern for the birds. The birds understand the food chain and survival of the fittest. It is the humans that have a problem with it.
We have some feral stray cats here that haven't been dealt with. I'm sure they'll be able to keep the mice/rats in check. The nice thing about that is that they can't get to the bird feeders are because of the way the fences here are set up, like the hawk could.
Somehow I doubt that removing the hawk is going to cause our ecosystem to shut down. After all, the birds were doing just fine until he came along. He only moved in around three months ago.
The hawks are always there. Like the moon. You just don't see them all the time. Other hawks will come to the food you provide for them.
Cats do get the birds, and they play greater havoc with wild bird populations than hawks do.
Let me tell you a lilttle about darting animals with tranquilizers. To do so, you must have the animal's weight, because the tranquilizer is a medicine, an anesthesia. To give too little will either not work, or work too late, when the animal is in a situation in which going unconscious could kill it. Too much anesthesia can kill it, too. So how do they get the weight of an animal (a hawk) that you can only take a guess at by feeling its breastbone? (I handled hawks for 10 years, and based on that, I could sometimes guess weight within 6-8 ounces. 6 - 8 ounce differences change dosage.)
The dart must - must - hit muscle. Not bone, not a nerve. Hitting a nerve can cause irreversable nerve damage and paralyze it forever.
Since the dart contains medicine, and often a controlled substance, only experienced veterinarians and wildlife biologists may use it. Not any vet or wildlife biologist: Experienced ones, who have done it before and who know what to do when something goes wrong.
Imagine taking your child to the doctor for a shot. The doctor is out. The receptionist offers to give your child the shot. She doesn't look at the patient's chart to see if the child is allergic to anything; she doesn't weigh the child for the correct dosage.
Get it now?
How do you dart a hawk? How do you hit the right place, which is very small in a bird, and miss nerves, muscles and eyes? You don't. It's not done. People who need to catch hawks use specially designed traps that they must be licensed for. And not anyone can get a license.
Just because someone makes money off of "taking care of your wildlife problems" does not make it legal or right. How do you know the hawk survived afterwards? How do you know the needle did not hit a nerve and that the bird could fly properly? How do you know if the bird (or any animal that's "taken care of" in that way) had a mate, or chicks that were left behind? A male hawk, early in the nesting season, brings food to the female while she sits on eggs, and after that, brings food to the family while she broods the chicks.
Animal nuisance operators have no real interest in these points, because to attend to them will lose them money. They make money off of ignorance and laziness.
I feel bad for the hawk and all. It's not as if I hated it or anything. It simply couldn't stay though, and neither can the rest that decide to show themself. If they're smart, they'll continue to stay hidden, but once they start making themselves a nuisance to the rest of the residents, they're out of here. I trust that the people who came and got him removed knew what they were doing. If they didn't, it's not my fault or my problem, it's the government's. If they're going to make laws about hawks and their removal, they need to enforce them and shut down WLC agencies that are breaking those laws.
If it helps you feel better, next time we get a hawk, I will try and find someone who traps them rather than tranquilizes them.
I did look at the HSUS website. I followed all the steps they have listed there. If anything, it only backs up my belief that I did the right thing. The hawk was a threat to small pets that are sometimes left outdoors, and it was in danger from my neighbors, who were getting increasingly more violent towards it.
Sometimes animals need to be moved, especially when they're living in a populated area. A hawks' place is in the forest. For all you know, it might be better off. That's the last I'm going to say on this matter, because I don't think it's that big a deal.
I think its sureal that people are making such a fuss over relocating a hawk when where i live I see undesired hawks eagles and falcons being shot towards or trapped and killed a lot. I live in Japan. You should not scoff or complain about hawk being moved because if the hawk lives in a other contry and was undesired it would be killed instead.
Thanks for visiting the Wildlife Garden Forum.
%( (eyes crossed)
The crew I hired probably had one, but I didn't personally need one. I wasn't the one moving the bird, I was just the one recommending that it be moved.
There has been a hawk problem in Ohio as of late. Some wild life foundation reintroduced a bunch of hawks into the wild. I'm not sure of the details, because I didn't pay too much attention to the story and I heard it in passing on the news. But anyway, there was a followup story that the place that released them is starting to rethink their idea. A lot hawks made homes in the city of Columbus, and quite a few people have complained because they don't enjoy seeing pigeons randomly ripped up in front of them or their kids. So now the place that released them is discussing what they should do to get them out of the city and that's the last I've heard of the story. I don't think the one in my area was one of those hawks though. I don't live that close to the actual city.
I understand why people don't enjoy watching a hawk rip up pigeons in front of them, but the real tragedy in this story is that people can't take the time to explain the bigger picture to their kids. By complaining and being intolerant of the hawk, they take a kneejerk approach to solving the problem, but not to explaining the reality of that natural process to their kids. I think these are the hard but necessary lessons of life. We can't make everything pleasant and happy because it leaves kids ill prepared for the realities of life.
I recall seeing a movie once where a child from the mountains of Virginia watched a hawk catch a rabbit. Even as they consoled him, his parents stood by and suggested that he try not to be sad because that it is the way that the rabbits as a species are made stronger; the whole natural selection thing. They explained that it is the bigger plan and that although it was unpleasant to watch, it is part of the circle of life. I think a little of that kind of explanation would go a long way to helping kids understand that sometimes things in life are unpleasant and that we need to learn to deal with them because life is not always the way we want it to be. I work in a kindergarten classroom where we teach the circle of life and kids watch an occasional video where one animal eats another. We explain that it is part of the natural order of things and that it is eat or be eaten. They accept it quite readily, even better than most adults expect them to.
What seems paradoxical to me in all of this is that we, as a culture, have a problem with their kids seeing a natural act but don't seem to have any problem with their kids watching the news or violent movies or playing video games that display random acts of extreme violence.
I wonder if, by exposing kids to some of the realities of the natural world, we would be giving them a real lesson in tolerance? Different species have different ways of surviving. It all works together to insure balance.
I agree that kids should be taught about the circle of life(though we first watched an animal eating another animal in 3rd grade, I believe.) And I suppose if I had a kid who saw a hawk ripping up a pigeon in the city, I would try to explain it to them, if only so they wouldn't be upset. I think there's a slight difference between learning from a video and seeing it in real life though. In a movie, the animal died a long time ago, but when you see an animal killed in real life, you just witnessed a life ending at that very moment. It's a shock and it's very jarring, at least to me. Do you understand what I mean?
And while I try to explain to myself that it's just the circle of life and the natural order, I can't help but feel for the animal that died as an individual. For instance, the particular bird that I just saw being killed by a hawk will never have another life. It will never get to fly again or eat again, or chirp with the other birds again. The last thing it experienced was the fear and pain of being killed. It just makes me very sad.
I don't have a problem with the circle of life, really...I just don't want to see it happen in front of me. It's like a hot dog. Let's say someone likes hot dogs, and knows how a hot dog is made...but that doesn't mean they actually want to WATCH it being made or think about it while they're eating if that kind of thing grosses the person out. I like hawks and other predatory animals, and I realize that they have to kill and eat to be live, but that doesn't mean I want to see it up close and personal.
Dilandau: I do appreciate your willingness to keep thinking about this issue. Believe me, I get it. I don't enjoy it either. I turn my head when it happens in my yard, but I'm at peace with the entire process. I would agree that real life is harder to watch. The lesson is that it is natural selection, and it serves to make the species stronger. Nature doesn't care much about the individual. It cares about the species and the system as a whole. The point where we differ is how much to tinker with that. I don't believe that humans have the right to interfere merely to preserve their own pleasure. For the same reasons you feel bad for the songbirds, I feel bad for the hawk. He was lured there by the feeders. He was doing what he was meant to do. He didn't ask to become a victim either.
As humans, we always want to anthropomorphize animals. That is not reality, which in my opinion is not a good message to send to children. Kids take a lot from the model we provide. If we thoughtfully explain the concept to a child, in the long run they will take more from the message. I see it as a teachable moment. I wouldn't wish it on a kid, but if it happened, I'd explain it and comfort the kid. The thing I would have a harder time explaining is why the man had to come out with the gun and shoot the hawk. To that question, I don't think there are any easy answers.
I can't find the "problem" hawks that were introduced back to Ohio.
I found Ospreys: http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/Resources/osprey/osprey.htm
I found Peregrines:
These are success stories about animals that human ignorance and greed almost destroyed.
I guess people have different ideas of what constitutes a problem. Me, I think human population numbers rising is a problem.
Vonyon, I do feel sorry for the hawk. Then again, I feel sorry for most birds and to me, the hawk is just a big one with a sharper beak. I don't feel the hawk was a victim though. It seems to me that everyone assumed that the people that came out and took him didn't know what they were doing, but I don't agree. A whole crew of people came out, so for all I know, one of them could have been a vet. Even though the hawk stayed in one area for most of the time they were out there (it occasionally flew from the tennis court fence it was standing on to the fence across from that), it still took them about two hours to shoot it with the tranq. I believe the hawk is fine. Something much worse could have happened to him than being moved, after all. For instance animals that aren't protected, like dogs and cats, can end up being euthanized when AC is called in.
elly_nj, I'll try and find the story for you. I read about it in the Columbus Dispatch, so I'll look on their website and see if I can spot it.
Dilandau: Quite honestly, from Elly's post, I think there are many risks that were taken in order to move that hawk. If I'm not mistaken, Elly spent several years as an avian rehabber. The information she provides on the risks of tranquilizing the hawk is likely to be fairly reliable. In my opinion, the threat the hawk presented did not warrant taking those risks. I realize that is my opinion. I, personally, would not feel right about doing it. The hawk differs from dogs and cats in that it is a wild native animal and belongs here. It is part of the food chain and is not a threat to humans. People can supervise their pets. We just can't seem to get past that point, but I respect your willingness to continue to debate this and to think about it.
The thing is that everyone that gets interested in nature seeks to see more of it. As a result we try to lure nature to us. I think it is good in that, it gives us a window through which to start observing nature and understanding how it is intertwined with our lives. You have come to be connected with the lives of the songbirds. I don't think that is a bad thing. The problem is that there is always a trade off with everything. By feeding birds, the concentration of prey draws hawks. The down side is that people get mad at the hawk because they consider him a big spoilsport for simply responding to the excess food. The people decide that the hawk then needs to be relocated. Do you see how unfair that is?
I have often seen posts on this board seeking information on how to lure and feed deer, raccoons, etc. only to later see the same people here seeking a solution when the natural reaction has created a nuisance. Usually, they want to relocate the animal. In the case of some animals, this spells death. I don't think they really consider that. They just assume that the animal can be relocated safely. That assumption solves the problem for the human, so that is the end of the debate. So you can see why people develop strong opinions about this issue. It just seems like a very "human-centric" way to handle a problem.
One last point....from that website and what you seem to know about these people, I similarly question your assumption that these people knew what they were doing. Is this assumption any different than the people who are assuming that they didn't know what they were doing?
From reading the website, I didn't see any compelling information that gave legitimate credentials. If we go back to what Elly pulled off the site it says:
Question: What qualifies you to provide wildlife control services?
Answer: I have been in business for myself for 26 years. Of which time, I have been a professional trapper for six years. Every job that we have undertaken has been able to be solved, and the professional trappers we use have years of wild animal control experience.
After reading this, I'm left with more questions than answers. First, 26 years in business for myself doing what? Being in business for myself can mean many things: carpenter, plumber, Tupperware salesman, etc. Second, how does being a professional trapper for six years make him any more knowledgable about how to keep animals alive? Keeping an animal alive is not always the goal of a trapper. Thirdly, Every job that we have undertaken has been able to be solved What precisely does he mean by solved? Does he mean solved for the human that pays the bill or for the animal? It seems to me that the human solution is to remove the hawk, period. Personally, I think we just assume because someone is doing something, they are qualified to do it. I believe if the man had some real credentials, they certainly would be posted on the website. From your posts so far, you seem to be a reasonable person who truly does love nature, I hope you will reconsider this decision if you are faced with the problem again, which inevitably you will be.
Well, I'm assuming that you mean another solution with the hawk in mind. Like I said, I appreciate your continuing to listen and debate this. I do understand that you were trying to do the right thing by not letting your neighbors take a baseball bat to it. I think we don't often portray the whole picture, so thinking from the hawk's view is not something we are accustomed to doing.
I think you will probably continue to have the hawk problems with all the bird feeders being there. Maybe you can play devil's advocate with the neighbors and explain the hawk's view.
You may be right. Adults form opinions throughout their lives, and we are remarkably resistant to rethinking them. Kids are much more maleable. There have been plenty of arguments on this forum about whether or not to feed birds artificially. That is up to people to make up their own minds. I just think that making an informed decision is preferable to an uninformed one. I believe that through understanding, most problems can be solved. Since these people seem to be nature lovers, maybe someone could come and do a presentation on this for them at a community center or meeting sometime. They may begin to see the light in an indirect way.
So, you could say that you have since started to think about the bigger picture and how you all may be contributing to the problem. Then I would explain that the reason that hawks are coming is because there is a concentration of food for them. They are simply responding to the situation that is presented to them the same way the songbirds are showing up because they have found a concentration of their food at the feeders. If they follow the food chain backwards from the hawk, they will see that the reason he is there is indirectly related to the feeders.
A little education into how ecosystems work and how each member (plant and animal) occupies a niche might help. In other words, a niche is like a job that is integral to the larger community. They are watching this in action. If a community member is eliminated for some reason or is not doing their job, there are further consequences down the road. The songbirds are there to clean up seed. The hawks are there to keep the songbird population in check. If you eliminate one, you will eventually have an overpopulation of another species and the ecosystem is out of balance. Ideally, balance is best because it keeps the system or community healthy when everyone does their job. Look at the white-tailed deer as an example. Their overpopulation has caused many problems: starvation for deer, disease (chronic waste, Lyme), destruction of the habitat of other animals (because they are eating things that other animals used to rely on for food), and destruction of human landscaping to name a few.
You know, environmentalists get a bad name because of the few extremists who are totally intolerant of other views. Extremism and intolerance always give any issue a bad name, but I'd like to think that all humans should/could be environmentalists because we occupy a niche as well. Unfortunately we are not always good community members. The thing is that the whole thing is really just common sense. I think people just see the problem from a human viewpoint. They like seeing the birds, but don't like the consequences of that.
After reading this thread and doing a little personal research, I found out that a hawk is not likely to survive a relocation. That is in addition to the risk that Elly already pointed to from the tranquilizer.
The bottom line is that harming hawks is illegal since they are protected by law. Most people do not want to break the law.
Good luck to you. Maybe a few will, like you, be open-minded and will listen to you. Good luck to you in all of this.
I can't believe that there's still discourse on this topic.
So ALL of the neighbors were in agreement that the hawk should me moved (by any means) so that it wouldn't affect their birdfeeding????!!!!!!
What if a Jew, a Muslim or anyone for that matter "that the neighborhood condo owners didn't like".......what would happen then??? Trank gun? Intimidation?
Columbus......a university town no less.......a town in a red state where this little condo has it all ack basswards.
Yesterday while I was in the kitchen, at least 3 sparrows flew right into the patio doors in a panic, looking out I noticed all the birds by the feeder were gone, and on the power line in the middle of the yard was a large bird, my husband looked and said it was a hawk, It was very big, but by the time I got my camera, he had flown away. Darn, as I did not have my glasses on I could not get a good look at him. One more thing, as I am a night worker, I was just waking up today around noon, and in my stupor I heard a cardinal song. I do not remember hearing their song this early in the year, but it is making my day, and woke me up very well. Spring is actually on the way!
Thanks dillie. If it weren't for folks like me telling you how "dumb and wrong" you are, we would have no birds of prey about. I nearly punched out a brother in law who routinely shot Great Horned and Short Eared Owls along the Bayshore when he couldn't get at any shots at rabbits on the old landfill. His comments? They were eating "his" rabbits. Pssssssssssst. They're not your songbirds either.
Remember my little Zappa reference up above on this thread????? You're Frank's "poster child".
Now, answer the question. What if a gay, a Muslim or anyone else lived in your Condo, and the Condo didn't care for that person. They cooked and the smells were overwhelming. Or the gays being visible were too disturbing for you. Would you hire an exterminator? light torches and burn him/her out? or perhaps start your own porgrom?
You give the human race a bad name. BTW, can you point me in the direction of ANY POST that you may have posted on Gardening elsewhere???? Just curious. You have a single minded focus here that is illustrative of many who come on here purely to agitate. I doubt very much that you've ever offered a scintilla of evidence that you're a gardener let alone a lover of the natural world.
I get hundreds of warblers each spring at my house. And if sharpie, or a screech owl is getting to eat, it's fine by me. After all, you're not taking them out to dinner are you???? Oh that's right, you're the one who pruportedly hired someone to trank and move a hawk who was bothering all at the Condo. Did you have a general meeting with the association to discuss this "menace"??????
How utterly ridiculous and preposterous your whole ACT is.
I'd like to invite you to Cape May any day in October, when Higbee beach is full of sharpies, and who with a little luck get a meal of blue jays, or flickers.
Now Dilly ol boy. Tell us. Intimidation? Torch them out? or start a 'pogrom'???? Inquiring minds want to know. :)
The message to which you are referring progressed to an end. I think it did so quite well. Dil came here specifically with a problem, which is why many people find these forums.
If anyone came to agitate the already-resolved situaion, it is you. Your incessent badgering of someone who seemed to find a resolution (thanks to Vonyon's patience and intelligence) is alarming to me, who I am sad to say, is on your "side" regarding ecology.
So please leave it alone. It's over, except for your posthumous stirring.
Dil: I appreciate the fact that you hung in there, did not allow yourself to be intimidated by those who choose to get nasty and were willing to listen and reconsider your opinion. In the end, that is the reason we all post here. It takes a big person to do that and you have proven to me that having these debates is very worthwhile for all of us. Thanks for your reconsideration of this difficult issue.
Fair enough Elly. I didn't read all of the posts in great detail, gleaning for the most part; what I did gather was a continued single minded rant that still persisted as of this past week by our friend in Columbus.
Let's call a spade a spade here. It was a ridiculous set of arguments put forth by Dillie.
Yes, initially, you were right birdsong, but I think it is important to give credit where it is due. If someone is willing to read and listen and alter their opinion, rather than get defensive, then it isn't fair to keep attacking them. The ability to think outside the box is a sign of intelligence. Everyone is entitled to making a mistake based on bad information. More often than not on here, I have found that people end up putting a stake in the ground and because they are attacked, they never alter their opinion. In my opinion, that would be the worst of outcomes. We are all here to help each other. I think it is the old saying you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar kind of thing. I'm sure your opinion has evolved as you have learned about the environment and you have to give other people the same opportunity.
Vonyon, I hear you up to a certain point. Living in the Soprano State with the tremendous influx of cityfolk who've been leaving NYC/urbanized No. Jersey in droves over the last 20 years has hardened me.
I can only stomach so much "ignorance" when it comes to the natural world. Especially so when those so called 'moneyed new suburban homeowners' are wasteful with regard to finite resources (water) and the worshiping of lawns. And they Vonyon are the MAJORITY here.
That's why I've long since discarded the "honey" approach. It don't work with the baddabing crowd who are going to do whatever the hell they please.
Exactly, Vonyon. The reason people have debates is so that they can listen to each other's ideas without getting defensive. If I had come to the message board and it was just Birdsong ranting, I would have just rolled my eyes and I wouldn't have given the matter a second thought. I'm glad you made an effort.
Birdsong: I can certainly understand why you feel the way you do. In fact, I agree with your views 100%. I am saddened that we are all in the position of losing our tempers because this issue is so near and dear to our hearts, and we always feel that we are losing the battle (especially when facing the approaching season of Chemlawn ads). I think I pointed out to Dil in one post why we all feel as strongly as we do: . . . I have often seen posts on this board seeking information on how to lure and feed deer, raccoons, etc. only to later see the same people here seeking a solution when the natural reaction has created a nuisance. . . . so you can see why people develop strong opinions about this issue.
However, after spending a couple of years reading, I believe that we all have a unique opportunity here. This kind of board gives us the opportunity to debate these ideas online for many people to read. I like to think that there are other people out there, like Dil (and probably each one of us at one time or another), who are similarly fertile ground. I think that when we do lose our tempers and get sharper than we want to, our argument loses power. I'm as guilty as anyone of losing my temper in this thread, but the amazing thing about Dil is that he hung in there. I personally think that takes a pretty big person . . . not to mention that Dil has promised to try to explain his new understanding to his neighbors. He won't win them all over, but he may convince a few. What more can we ask for? Afterall, what we are asking for is a paradigm shift. Our culture values making money and personal enjoyment above and beyond all else. So, we are asking for deeply-rooted cultural ideals to change. That won't happen overnight. Maybe I'm being way too optimistic, but I think if people did understand the common sense of it, some of them wouldn't do the things they do. The only way to hope to change people's opinions is to debate them respectfully. So, while I understand where your anger comes from, I hope you will rethink your approach. You obviously understand the issue clearly and have some valuable insight to add.
First thing...I am so sorry for anyone who has had a loss. I live in a populated city in NJ but my home has a real big nice backyard with trees and such. I have all kinds of "friends" come visit and I have been helping them ( feeding, protecting ) for so many years that I have seen many generations of the same family. Some know our family so well that they are not as scared of us as others. I came here to see if there was any good advice to keep hawks away as about two years ago I started to see them, then yesterday there was a baby in the tree and now I am serching for as much help as I can get. I am thankful that there are other good people who care about other living things and I pray for you all. I am so sad to see that some people say things like...they ONLY go after pigeons??? or that is ok??? I love all them animals, and the pigeons are cute, friendly, smart birds who are the closest relative to parrots, as I have two parrots, but that all aside...they have parents and babies, and have blood inside them to. Please everyone, don't judge a book by it's cover, some people "like" the birds based on there color? we have a family of cardinals that we love so much, but we love are family of black birds just as much. I am going to leave now to go see what I can do to help all the animals ( we have family's of many kinds of animals )that do not prey on other animals. I know it happens in nature, but I can try and do everything I can to keep my backyard as safe as possable. Please...if you love birds, and animals...love all the peaceful ones the same. Trust me...if you take the time to look past there color or reputation...you will see love in there eye's and a big heart, and a new friend. If any of you nice people read this and have a GREAT NEW solution that may help me in my quest to help the birds and animals and keep the hawks away could you please let me know. My email address is email@example.com Thank you and GOD BLESS ALL THAT'S GOOD.
I can't believe this thread is still alive.
All I have to say is: pigeons are in no way related to parrots. That does not diminish their inherent importance in the world, especially as a prey species.
But just so you know. Parrots are from the order Psittaciformes, and pigeons are from the order Colombiformes. Although both are social animals, that is where the similarities end.
Good luck with your backyard critters!
I am really sorry about your little feathered friend! I have 3 bantam chickens that I raised sinced they were only 3hrs.old,they are now almost 11mths.old. My 1 rooster was attached by a hawk right in my front yard when he was only 5mths.& no bigger than a pidgeon. I just happened to look out the window right when it attached so I grabbed a broom, screaming bloody murder & saved my baby! He had a rough recovery! Amazing the damage done in less than 30 seconds! But the great news is he's fine now & thanks to that experience I did tons of research on how to keep all our feathered friends safe!
1.Birds of prey don't really get along, so just like fake owls work for pidgeons, they will also make smaller falcons & hawks think twice!
2.CROWS! Either make friends with some live ones or go the fake route like the owl. Crows harass hawks & falcons big time! They gang up on them, BAD! And, if you have ever seen it, you start to feel bad for the hawk or falcon (but only for about 1 second though).
3.Hawk balls or just plain CD's. Hawk balls are basically little disco balls that reflect bright sunlight in all directions, hung up hi from a weather vane or tree branches around the yard really turns them off! Apparently they really don't like all the bright flashing shiny light!
Hanging old CD's in the tree branches reflect light in just the same way & may work out cheaper & more convenient than tracking down hawk balls. Everybody has spare CD's laying around just waiting for a good cause. Tired of hearing Justin Bieber, 100 times daily? Oops honey, no I haven't seen your cd.
Just kidding. But you get the idea, any old scratched cd's & dvd's will work & you get the extra bonus of a free pretty light show in your garden. As well as entertainment you can't buy! My chickens love chasing the reflected light, they'll give any cat, chasing a laser pointer or flashlight spot competition anyday!
Well Good Luck! Hope these ideas save at least 1 life!


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Amazon-Wunschzettel von Hanna Brammer
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