text:
msm decides vp hoaxes don't matter
Right now, our MSM is falling all over itself reporting on two sports related hoaxes. One involves Lance Armstrong, and the other involves Manti Te'o's online "girlfriend."
Not surprisingly, sharing information about Joe Biden's fictitious "brush" with a school shooting "on a golf course" that does not exist is nowhere on the MSM agenda. Nope. Those folks are too busy digging for information about lying sports figures to worry about holding VP Joe Biden accountable to the mayors and the American people to whom he fed a Whopper.
FTA: "Mr. Biden told a meeting of mayors in Washington Thursday that he was about a quarter-mile away from an Amish schoolhouse on Oct. 2, 2006, when a gunman shot and killed five students and wounded five others.
"I happened to be literally" probably, it turned out, to be a quarter of a mile [away] at an outing when I heard gunshots in the woods," Mr. Biden recounted. "We didn't know … we thought they were hunters."
But a search of maps of the area in Lancaster County, Pa., shows the nearest golf course to the site of the shooting, Moccasin Run Golf Club, is about five miles away. Rodney King, the golf pro at Moccasin Run, said Friday he was working at the course on the day of the shooting and never saw Mr. Biden, who was then a U.S. senator."
Biden puts himself on a golf course close enough to hear the gunshots...even though no such golf course exists.
I see the MSM falling all over itself over two hoaxes, one involving Lance Armstrong, the other involving
Here is a link that might be useful: Hoaxters
Whoa..I'm surprised there aren't headlines about this...lol Since I live near the area I can attest that there are a gazillion golf courses near the Nickel Mine school. Yeah, Fox was b!tching about this same thing. They're upset this football player and Lance are taking away their constant rant on Obama...Cracked me up at the gym last night. The Washington Post poll put Obama at 53% popularity. OReilly had to say that they rely on Gallup which puts him at 49%. So they shop around for the lowest number to meet their biased reporting...Lol
And the Fox outrage at using the children behind the President as "WALLPAPER" as he unveiled the gun control plan. You should have heard Laura Ingraham (the Irish Death Fairy) and Michelle Malkin carry on!
The NRA ad mentioning the Presidents children was perfectly fine though for a myriad of Fox reasons.
This Manti Te'o guy isn't exactly Mensa material.
Oh yes, the Washington Times and the still dead Rev. Moon of the mass weddings and Holy (sex) Handkerchief.
Not exactly a real go to source for much... unless you can somehow use the news of Moon telling legislators he saved the souls of Hitler and Stalin.
(Do I really need to add a smiley?)
nik....and to think....that big-mouthed...embarrassment
is only ever one heart beat away from the presidency.
The liberals call him their endearment....and say...aaaaaaaw...thats our Joe.
Goes to show you how low the level of attainment is for putting a Democrat in the WH for them.
Didn't matter that he was a laughing stock of Washington.
Then they have the nerve to redicule ANY Republican that
ran for office.
There isn't a Republican that can match Joe for being
just down right goofy.
.that big-mouthed...embarrassment
is only ever one heart beat away from the presidency.
Hey, that would be a great poll...
Which would you prefer as one heart beat from the presidency?
The real, actual, beating heart of Joe Biden?
The replacement, battery operated, sorta-beating heart of Dick Cheney?
I know who the gun-crowd would prefer.
aaaaaw but some of you are living in the past.
Cheney isn't the VP.
Donald Trump might be a Republican but he isn't the VP.
The Republicans are not making excuses for the Donald.
Republicans don't say......."aaaaw he may be goofy but he is our Donald." Republicans generally ignore Donald T.
Goofy Joe is not to be ignored.
He is in the WH.
aaaaaw but some of you are living in the past.
Cheney isn't the VP.
He may no longer be in office but he left quite a legacy and not one to be proud of. Many are still living with the consequences of his actions today. All you have to do is take a trip to Walter Reed and see the young men and women missing limbs who went to fight his war, you remember the one, based on lies.
You never seem to be upset about his atrocities, just nonsense like the OP.
Conservatives on HT decide their hoaxes don't matter
Right now, our conservative group is falling all over itself reporting on Joe Biden's alleged hoax about his hearing gunshots while on a golf course near the site of a school shooting in 2006.
Not surprisingly, sharing information about several conservative posters' fictitious statements of "facts" and refusal to admit their misstatements is nowhere on the conservative HT agenda. Nope. Those folks are too busy digging for information about lying Democratic politicians to worry about holding their fellow conservative posters accountable to the members of HT to whom they fed a series of Whoppers.
FTP: Ms. Demifloyd told the board that the government directly pays for cell phones as an entitlement to the poor. Mrskjun said the NJ Senate passed a law prohibiting non-union labor on Sandy rebuilding projects; she also said the states highest in gun-related deaths were not in the top ten in gun ownership, and she said the number of gun deaths per year was 8,500. She added that under the new NY law, police could not have magazines larger than seven rounds. JessicaR also put the total gun death number 8,583 and added that there were more than 600 gun laws in New York; she also claimed and that the ATF had stated that the new gun law in NY was "a huge no-no", and that the new NY law violated federal laws about disclosures by mental health professionals. Elvis said the number of Americans killed in action was 2,757,196. Bill_vincent listed the top five states by overall homicide rate as California, Texas, New York, Illinois, and Pennsylvania.
But a search of the Internet shows that none of these statements is true.
I see the conservative HT posters falling all over theirselves over one supposed hoax involving Joe Biden, yet conservative posters on HT are propagating hoaxes right under their noses here on the board.
This post was edited by Factotem on Sun, Jan 20, 13 at 0:00
Nik, why on earth would the media be reporting on a story that is 7 years old and boring to boot!!!!!
Don't you all get it. Obama is being sworn in as PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES in less than 24 hours.
Leave the conservatives alone it is how they are handling Romney losing. Romney was not invited. Wonder why Fox did not report that or MSM. Neither Bush will be in attendance but all the other past Presidents will be in attendance. Wonder why MSM or Fox did not report that. So much gossip this weekend that MSM does not have time to report. They are too busy pissing off the Conservatives talking about Obama's Inauguration.
Boo Hoo What is wrong with MSM why are they not talking about Rev Wright. It is too funny.
Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on Sat, Jan 19, 13 at 22:27
"Not talking about four dead Americans in Benghazi either, are they marquest. But that doesn't seem to bother the liberals at all. Guess they weren't worth much were they? "
Here we go again - if you don't like the results of an investigation, just ignore the findings and keep regurgitating the slime put out by Faux news.
Here you go in case you missed it. Do you wonder why suddenly you are not hearing anything about it on your Faux News? Because they are aware they wanted to cut the budget and they do not want the parrots to find out. They want their parrots to only repeat what they want heard in the air.
Carry on with your rage of the day of the OP. This is not what they want you to talk about now.
The President will be sworn in tomorrow. More news they are not telling you.
Congressional budget cuts could have played a role in the department's security-on-the-cheap attitude. Pickering said investigators found a culture of "husbanding resources" that made front-line decision-makers reluctant to suggest increased spending. Clinton and her top deputies share responsibility for that culture, if not for specific decisions.
Clinton announced long ago that she would leave her post at the end of Obama's first term, and the fallout from Benghazi has killed Rice's bid for the post. The new secretary - Sen. John Kerry has been nominated for the post - will take a fresh look at how things have been run and can help establish a new culture. Clinton has done an excellent job overall, but what happened at Benghazi will go down as a black mark in her tenure.
The timing of the Benghazi report on the eve of the fiscal cliff deadline is fortuitous. It's a reminder that government has to spend money on certain things to keep the economy growing, hold the nation together and take care of the people who serve it, from war veterans to diplomats - fine people such as Christopher Stevens - in dangerous places.
In the defense budget, as in most spending categories, there are limits to what we can quickly cut and still keep this the kind of nation we want it to be. Conservatives generally would say "husbanding resources" instead of having a bias toward action is a good thing. But as negotiations near the brink, don't just think about the deficit. Think about Benghazi.
Here is a link that might be useful: BENGHAZI
Not talking about four dead Americans in Benghazi either
And who from the GOP is talking about the misadventure in Iraq brought about with the lies of President Bush, VP Cheney, Secretary Rumsfelt? Thousands of dead U.S. soldiers, tens of thousands of wounded veterans, tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, and soaring rates of birth defects due to U.S. use of DU weapons. And who proudly announced that she would vote for George W. Bush a third time if he were to run again?
I didn't dig a hole on this one and neither did Nik.
This is a fresh lie just a few days old.
Granted...he went back in time to 2006 to the event but
the lie was fresh and current.
Aaaaaaaaaw he is your Joe.
FTA: "Mr. Biden told a meeting of mayors in Washington Thursday that he was about a quarter-mile away from an Amish schoolhouse on Oct. 2, 2006, when a gunman shot and killed five students and wounded five others.
The Benghazi story was a sad one which shouldn't have happened, but it was trumped up so out of proportion by Faux news who wondered why no one else was trying to do a smear job on Obama and Clinton and Rice.
Again WHERE were all of you Righties during the eight years the dumbest man ever to sit in the oval office was busy destroying our economy and starting two wars which killed thousands of our soldiers and wounded and ruined the lives of countless more. TEN years of dual wars. And you people zone in on four dead people killed by terrorists in our embassy.Shameful.
What investigation on Benghazi? The one from the FBI that started weeks after the massacre? Who promoted the video story? Where are the perpetrators that Obama said we would hunt down? Why is some poor old fool sitting in prison after taking a perp walk for making a video that had nothing to do with Benghazi?
"What investigation on Benghazi? The one from the FBI that started weeks after the massacre? Who promoted the video story? Where are the perpetrators that Obama said we would hunt down? Why is some poor old fool sitting in prison after taking a perp walk for making a video that had nothing to do with Benghazi?"
Do you seriously think that every detail around this is going to be published daily for your viewing pleasure, mrsk? Why do you keep bringing this subject up? You are beating it like a dead horse.
You are beating it like a dead horse.
If it were a dead horse, people like us would most likely leave the issue alone.
However, it's not a dead horse--we have DEAD American citizens, and there is obvious negligence in the fact that they are dead, incompetence in providing for their safety and in determining what happened and what to tell the public, and deception on the part of our government representatives.
Those of us that care about that deserve answers as to who knew what, when they knew it, what they did and did not know, and what they did and did not do.
msm as an abbreviation is just not happening for me.
Everytime I see it, I think I am back in the 90's trying to check my first free email account.
I opened this thread thinking it would be about a computer virus someone sent to Biden.
That would have been more interesting than what it actually appears to be about anyway.
No, four more years will bring this and similar crap to Hot Topics. That I can guarantee.
If all I had in my Quiver of Outrage was the VP and Bengazi and spinning noise machine on the Right, I would fall into deep despair.
The Republicans cannot bring themselves to entertain successful governance by the Obama Administration, declaring again and again that that Administration must fail for the good of the country, or some such BS. Meanwhile, out in the once great State of Kansas, the Republican Speaker of the House is emailing Biblical text promoting the assassination of this President. He is the same boob that insulted the First Lady and was reduced to lamely apologizing. What the hell is in the waters out there?
I never thought R&R were a laughing stock - especially Ryan, but the both of them were a scary team.
That Romney, when speaking to a bunch of wealthy supporters, would refer to very nearly half of the people in this country and their needs so stunningly dismissively, that was shocking in it's frank revelation and IMO, atmosphere of the party which those words reflect is probably why enough conservatives voted Obama instead, to win the election.
The GOP has got to change their attitude, message and the general choice of figurehead if they are to be a party that a majority can feel will work in everyone's best interest.
The laughing stock was the two who teamed up to run in the last election against Obama.. That was just pathetic, the tired and never ending defense of especially Palin until she, herself quietly imploded, was also to be pitied.
Quit defending what is wrong!
Beating this particular dead horse again, why would conservatives back Romney when they had the far more qualified, intelligent and actually more conservative Huntsman - a man who could have beat Obama? I honestly think that if conservatives can figure out that question, they will have discovered a great deal of what is wrong with the party and the conservative voter in the first place.
Then, if you figure out why some would repeatedly use Benghazi (as an example) as an outrage point, even when the original reasons for finger pointing has been proven to be WRONG, just like all the other outrage points over the last four years which faded away once the facts were cleared up - conservatives will then know what kind of approach, message and thought process has to STOP if you want the majority of voters to have confidence in the party's ability to represent them with dignity and respect.
"nik remember when Obama sat in the pew of Jeremiah Wrights church for twenty years, but had no clue how the Reverend Wright felt about America? You are playing to the same crowd that believed him."
You nailed it. If the administration says it's true, it's true.
"Nik, why on earth would the media be reporting on a story that is 7 years old and boring to boot!!!!!"
It's not.
"This is a fresh lie just a few days old."
Thank you, citywoman. As we can see, low information is no obstacle to rushing out to join the attack.
mylab, nothing has been proven wrong or right about Benghazi other than the American people were lied to in regards to a video. Perhaps when there has been a credible investigation rather than something like the three stooges pointing fingers at one another. Perhaps Hillary Clinton will make things clearer when she testifies next week. I hope so.
And just as you don't think Romney would have made a good president, there are millions of us who can't understand how you can think Obama is.
Nik, I understood that the reference was just a few days ago. I was referring to the actual incident which was 7 years ago.
Commenting on an incident that happened that long ago, even if the facts aren't recalled perfectly, is hardly news...at least not the kinda news I want.
"Perhaps when there has been a credible investigation"
The Senate released a scathing report at the end of December. Mrs you don't find it credible?
nothing has been proven wrong or right about Benghazi other than the American people were lied to in regards to a video.
And the people were lied to re Iraq's WMD, with tens of thousands of U.S. and Iraqi deaths, but somehow that doesn't provoke outrage among the GOP partisans.
The CIA had a massive intelligence failure in Benghazi but I've yet to see or hear the GOP partisans question that failure or demand an investigation.
And the people were lied to re Iraq's WMD, with tens of thousands of U.S. and Iraqi deaths, but somehow that doesn't provoke outrage among the GOP partisans.
The CIA had a massive intelligence failure in Benghazi but I've yet to see or hear the GOP partisans question that failure or demand an investigation.
And if you remember, it wasn't only Republicans who voted to wage war against Iraq, and it wasn't only Republicans that believed that Hussein had WMD. Personally I was not for the war in Iraq, I'm not for war at all. But I can't say that I'm not glad that Hussein who was willing to kill hundreds of thousands of his own people is gone. I also felt as if we should have kept our hands out of Libya and Egypt, and that we are years overdue in bringing the troops home from Afghanistan.
As far as Benghazi, there was a huge failure all around, beginning with the State Dept., and continuing with the lies about the video, and yes investigate them all and find out why four Americans died that night without help from anyone. And find the killers and bring them to justice.
Come on, chase, don't you know the game by now? If the facts don't fit in with your agenda, ignore them and continue to repeat the same old BS.
MrsK - the fact that you were against the war is not the point. The fact that democrats in Congress were fooled by Bush and Cheney is not the point being brought up here. The point is the President you voted for 2 times and would vote for again lied to everyone to get us into an unjust war that killed tens of thousands of people and that the conservatives on this board were not yelling and screaming about that. Why is that? Because the President was someone you voted for? Then to use the death of 4 Amercians to try and create a scandal about the President you did not vote for is shameful. You should be ashamed of yourself. I really do not know how you sleep at night.
Bush and Cheney and cohorts lied from Day ONE to get us in Iraq. They knew and there has never been any outrage about this from you Righties. But Benghazi..fueled by Faux ad nauseun. Even on the day of worse school massacre in our history , that was still their number one lead off story.
No, we did NOT think Romney and Ryan were funny. I thought they were the scariest two, next to Bush and Cheney to ever run. The clowns who were the dopy dozen were the ones who were too good to be true. Morons, all.
Marshall nailed it. The GOP chief of the house of representatives in Kansas is issuing biblical passage asking for the assassination of Obama making his wife a widow. This followed vulgar disparaging emails he sent talking of our gracious first lady. Calling her Yo mama.
The Rightwing is festered with hateful goons. 2016 will be a shoo in again for the Democrats.
Happy Inauguration Day, Mr President. Thank God R&R have slunk back to their holes.
MsK, your answer is not responsive to my comments. The Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld cabal presented the false intelligence but you want to blame those who believed what was offered in classified briefings. They gave their lies to Colin Powell who presented the false intelligence to the U.N. -- forever ruining his reputation.
Personally I was not for the war in Iraq,
That is not what you have previously written. You were in favor of the invasion but changed your mind when the realities of the occupation began.
Whatever, yada, yada, re-scrape the barrel, yada, yada.
"The base" are especially unhappy today--even beyond their usual--on my other political board too.
What I find interesting is that the best new "scandal" they've managed to whomp up is VP Biden's inaccurately describing how far a local school was from his golf course 7 years ago. Huh? Oh, good grief.
Perhaps this attempted attack actually has something to do with new poll numbers that show his popularity is now just below President Obama's? The unhappy ones always run in a pack that follows the leaders, so I'm guessing Biden is being recognized anew by conservative leaders as a threat to future aspirations.
And this empty silliness is just what they've come up with right now... Personally, I take that as a compliment to all of us who voted to reelect him. Go Joe! :)
I find it hard to believe that anyone with a modicum of intelligence would want to read a story that is so incredibly deceptive.
There is NOTHING in the story that proves that Joe Biden wasn't playing golf that day somewhere in the vicinity of the shooting. The only "proof" that the writer of the article can come up with is a golf pro who was working at a nearby golf course who saw nothing and heard nothing and actually says Biden probably wouldn't have been playing at that course anyway. What kind of a witness is that???? The whole story is developed through innuendo and is so faulty in logic and bereft of facts that I cannot believe anyone would fall for it.
In fact, toward the end of the story it says that Biden said he saw helicopters and in fact that day medical helicopters WERE USED to transport the girls. And it DOESN"T FOLLOW UP ON THAT, which seems to be an indicator that Biden was indeed somewhere in the vicinity.
This whole "investigative article" which is trying to prove that Biden is perpetrating a "hoax" (really?) on the American people is a big toilet bowl full of steaming poo. I really hate bad journalism.
And once again, hoax exposed or deception/lie revealed, and the conservative perpetrator just simply disappears from the thread with no comment--not even a tiny little "never mind."
I noticed that today over on my gun control thread also.
I find it hard to believe that anyone with a modicum of intelligence would want to read a story that is so incredibly deceptive.
Chalk it up with $200 billion million Obama trips to India.
This post was edited by fouquieria on Sun, Jan 20, 13 at 16:46
We once had a thread (at least) that discussed the differing world views and values between the conservative and the liberal types. Reasoning, facts, and empathy were important among liberals while faith, authority, and independence ranked higher among conservatives. I might be mis-remembering the specifics but the differences do account for one side demanding facts and strong compassionate government while the other side just "knows" what will set their world aright.
I don't apologize with the oversimplifications nor leaving out probably a large minority of non-ideological types.
elvis wrote,
"Elvis said the number of Americans killed in action was 2,757,196"
Elvis posted the link; cited the source. Take it up with the source, O Robotic One.
How cowardly. You posted information. The information you posted was wrong. Therefore, it is your responsibility to retract it -- though you *still* haven't admitted that what you posted is erroneous, which is dishonest though not surprising. If you feel like it, you can then contact the source to chastise them for helping to put you in a very embarrassing position (though you were too lazy to even look at the backing data). But they didn't post here -- you did.
This is a first-class example of a weak attempt to avoid taking responsibility for your actions. As I said, it's cowardly.
This syndrome -- the fear that drives the avoidance of admitting error -- is the most distressing and disappointing attribute of many on the right, as has been observed. It reveals their profound insincerity. It's a particularly pernicious form of dishonesty, and it reveals that not only do they have no real interest in seeking solutions based on reality (as they will not acknowledge what reality is), it also demonstrates that their own convictions are not ultimately based on an examination of reality. That doesn't leave much.
Have some guts. Take responsibility.
This post was edited by Factotem on Sun, Jan 20, 13 at 19:34
Fatotem: "Have some guts. Take responsibility."
I'm really very flattered that you spend so much time on me. Thank you. That may have impressed some readers here and you all can spend some time talking about this. Or you can have another monolog. Bon apetit. :D
elvis wrote,
Fatotem [sic]: "Have some guts. Take responsibility."
I'm really very flattered that you spend so much time on me. Thank you. That may have impressed some readers here and you all can spend some time talking about this. Or you can have another monolog. Bon apetit [sic]. :D
I'm not sure you should be flattered, unless you believe that all forms of attention are positive. I spend time addressing what you post because your dishonest behavior interests me, as I believe it underlies a great problem in our society in general, and understanding the causes of and forms of this absence of integrity may provide some insight into why many on the right are so resistant to -- afraid of, really -- the truth.
Now, if you enjoy attention on that basis, I guess that's your prerogative.
And you have missed another opportunity to admit your misstatement. I must say, the consistency of this particular form of cowardice is impressive.
Ha! That's funny! Not an obsession at all. See, I read a lot of posts here and a pattern emerges for a lot of people. Doesn't take a genius to notice the pattern.
For example, people not answering questions directed to them because they don't like the answer. There are several here that follow that pattern also.
If I posted something I had read on a blog like, oh, I dunno, Mitt Romney is actually a pedophile, without checking to see where the blogger got his information and determining, from a source which is reliable, that it was true, and was called on it for being untrue, I certainly would own up to my posting an untruth (read "lie")..
That's the height of dodging personal responsibility.
Own up, elvis. Take some responsibility for your post.
Thanks, Marshall, but the number of Americans killed in all wars came from a linked source, which I'm not going to dig up, as I'm not having a problem. If someone knows that information to be inaccurate, they should dig up my post (different thread, maybe?), re-post it (with the link), and then prove that it is false.
Then we can all dive in and dissect it. As far as I know, the information is accurate.
elvis wrote,
Thanks, Marshall, but the number of Americans killed in all wars came from a linked source, which I'm not going to dig up, as I'm not having a problem. If someone knows that information to be inaccurate, they should dig up my post (different thread, maybe?), re-post it (with the link), and then prove that it is false.
Then we can all dive in and dissect it. As far as I know, the information is accurate.
This has already occurred, and your last statement is false.
I am really rather amazed at the profound dishonesty and utter lack of integrity you continue to exhibit on this issue. You posted a false "fact"; the falsity of it was provable from the very source you used and linked. Yet your fear or embarrassment is so powerful you would rather continue to be viewed as a coward and morally vacuous than have the self-respect to take responsibility for your misstatement. It's quite astounding. Even more astounding is your apparently sincere statement, "I'm not having a problem." Apparently, you do not consider being exposed as being fearful, dishonest, and cowardly as a problem. Perhaps you are simply used to it.
This post was edited by Factotem on Sun, Jan 20, 13 at 21:11
Factotem, give it a rest. Elvis' number came from the last line of the text before the graphics showing casualties and KIAs by country in each conflict the US was a participant. The numbers of KIA's from the graphics did not add up to the author's total, not even close. I did not see a link in support of the larger number. Neither Elvis nor I give much of a fig about the resolution of this terrible situation.
marshallz10 wrote,
Factotem, give it a rest. Elvis' number came from the last line of the text before the graphics showing casualties and KIAs by country in each conflict the US was a participant. The numbers of KIA's from the graphics did not add up to the author's total, not even close. I did not see a link in support of the larger number. Neither Elvis nor I give much of a fig about the resolution of this terrible situation.
You are correct; all this has already been posted in the original thread, yet elvis cannot simply admit the error.
The truth of this particular fact is of little consequence, especially as it has already been established. But the situation is illustrative of this core behavior pattern of conservatives; they appear to pick a position, then attempt to find facts to support that position. Since the position came first, facts that do not support the position do not cause a change in position, so they cannot be accepted. Instead a variety of techniques are deployed to attempt to obscure or dismiss the truth, as we see here and in many other instances on this board with demifloyd, mrskjun, and others.
As positions are settled on in advance of facts that may undermine those positions, it naturally raises the question of what, then, are the positions based on, if not the facts the conservatives themselves offer in support? It follows that there are other, hidden reasons behind these strongly-held positions, but they cannot be used to support the positions. Why would that be? Perhaps because they are really based on deep biases (prejudices, hatreds, etc.) and questionable motives such as extreme selfishness, and arguing for their positions based on those true reasons would be counterproductive, so fabrications are deployed instead. This habit becomes so ingrained, and some awareness of the tenuousness of the basis for held positions seems to remain, and thus it is viewed as an unacceptably dangerous weakness to admit error on any point, no matter how unimportant. Thus is created the behavior patterns so often observed here, and in wider society, too.
The other piece of this phenomenon is the "red line", whereby other conservatives will not call out a con who has lied, erred, or misstated a fact. Rather, they will remain silent, or in some instances, they will bolster the case even in the face of proof to the contrary. It even seems that this enabling behavior causes a disturbing furtherance of the truth-avoidance syndrome which takes it to another level: these individuals begin to believe that there is no objective truth at all, or that its value is zero, and therefore facts and truth are not objective qualities -- or they don't even exist. This attitude is encapsulated in the statement by a Bush aide (likely Karl Rove):
"[journalists are] in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality."
This arm-linking behavior, whereby conservatives unite behind one of their own despite the falsehoods that person is spreading, is both a strength and a weakness. It allows politicians at the national level to act as a unit, but it also produces situations which produce a sudden, shocking slap of reality, as occurred with conservatives in general and with Karl Rove in particular on election night. That event showed that no matter how fervently one believes a chosen "fact" (that Romney would win the election, a belief based on cherry-picked, biased polling), it will not convert a non-truth into a truth. Sometimes, fortunately, reality has the final say.
Here on HT, we see this unspoken code on display frequently. A conservative will lie, or err, or misstate something, and incontrovertible proof of the falsehood will be posted, The original poster will not correct, apologize, or retract. But perhaps even more interestingly, no other conservatives will stand up for the truth. Usually, they simply stay silent, which is a stark exhibition of bias, as they certainly speak up when someone on the left is found to be wrong.
I feel that this set of phenomena, which are rooted in profound dishonesty and immorality, are largely responsible for the partisan acrimony, deadlock, and failure of attemtps at sincere, productive discussions on difficult issues.
I often wonder what these conservatives who are truth-avoiders teach their children about honesty, and what they were taught when they were being reared. Was there a sudden conversion of sorts where they rejected the concept of truth or honesty, or where they switched from considering facts and then forming positions to giving in to biases and prejudices and picking positions first, then they sought supporting facts to support their stance? Or was it a gradual process, whereby they observed that facts and their biases were in conflict time and time again, and they slowly started to succumb to those biases at the expense of the truth? What made a person like demifloyd find the idea of retracting a misstatement (that the government directly pays for cell phones, for example) so repellent that she is incapable of performing such a simple, routine act?
I don't have answers to these questions, but I continue to explore the matter, as I think it is vitally important to our society, so I want to know as much about it as I can.
This post was edited by Factotem on Sun, Jan 20, 13 at 23:27
factum......there is one like you in every school.....in
every family....at every sport event....at every town hall
They are called know it all bullies.
We have one every where in real life and then one here.
Your name alone says everything about you .
You do nothing but point fingers and call people out.
Keep it up and I will report you.
I have never done that before ....ever....but you have an
ugly way about you .
citywoman2012 wrote,
factum......there is one like you in every school.....in
every family....at every sport event....at every town hall
They are called know it all bullies.
We have one every where in real life and then one here.
Your name alone says everything about you .
You do nothing but point fingers and call people out.
Keep it up and I will report you.
I have never done that before ....ever....but you have an
ugly way about you .
Ah, the bully gambit. Tired.
Do you have something constructive to contribute? For example, do you believe you can choose your own facts, or do you understand that facts have a truth independent of what you might desire? Do you believe it is honest to post false statements and then refuse to retract them?
As a conservative, your input on this topic would be of interest. And you can save the threats; they are empty.
"Keep it up and I will report you.
I have never done that before ....ever....but you have an
ugly way about you ."
Yes, facts have no place in these discussions. Oh, wait............ what exactly will you report them for CW, fact-checking the forum? The nerve.
I have to admit, factotem, that I don't disagree with your points, but you do have a way of driving them into the ground that may be a bit excessive. You might ease off a bit at this point (just meant as a friendly nudge).
CW--if you don't like what Factotem says, just close out the thread and go elsewhere. I'm not trying to get rid of you--but then, you shouldn't try to get rid of Factotem either just because you don't like what he/she says. There are plenty of other threads you can start or comment on, after all (just meant as a friendly nudge).
I love it. Elvis has finally met her match.
CW, and what would you report Factotem for? Stating the correct facts? He isn't insulting you or anyone else. You Righties constantly stick up for each other on the most blatant untruths and rumors you hear on Fox. Even when the truth eventually comes out, it's crickets for you guys.
You were literally STUNNED on November 7th when you woke up and saw Obama was again our President. You ridiculed me and others who were relying on Nate Silver for the true stats. You and ALL the talking mouths on Fox, Newt, OReilly, Morris, Rove, etc were all but measuring the draperies in the oval office. The best moment of the whole year was Karl Rove sputtering LIVE about Fox calling Ohio. I relive that moment often and chuckle.
Fact, I think you have a problem with the idea that despite all the evidence, you are simply unable to get even a reluctant acknowledgement of the possibility of an inadvertent error. That despite a brilliant presentation, you get squat diddley from those you are trying to convince.
You will never get that, an admission of guilt of any wrong doing, an apology, perhaps not even a true acception of an offered apology should the occasion arise,, nor the acknowledgement that you are correct....none of it. Even if it is the right and moral thing to do and obvious to them that you are.
You cannot MAKE anyone here say anything they don't want or choose to say.
I greatly worry that if your mission and purpose of participation is to gain an admission from conservative here, on about any subject they find themselves uncomfortable over, personally or politically, you will find it an exercise in pure frustration. I believe personally that their beliefs about how bad Obama is justifies all their poor arguments - rumors, anger - all built on a house of cards. To find they are totally wrong about too many items could cause their entire belief system to collapse, therefore they will remain stubborn out of fear. They will refuse to reply even to the obvious, even if they said they would, even if it was one of them to issue the challenge. They will admit to nothing, they can't afford to, not even to themselves.
Their refusal in this forum to respond is often the only power and control left to them, I believe this deeply and think it a very important point to remember when these threads get confrontational with the refusal of acknowledgements.
I also deeply believe that some of this is mean spirited game playing, "like shooting fish in a barrel - let's say this simple statement with the use of these particular words in this very particular way and then watch them jump" - as a form of amusement.
I hope you will stay, as you are one who presents facts needed in discussions, you can put facts together and create a brilliant argument or rebuttal. I also sincerely hope that if I am correct in my observations about what you are attempting to accomplish, you will change your goal to something that will bring you some true measure of satisfaction in a positive way, understanding that EVERYONE pretty much always thinks they won the point or the entire argument, no matter how ridiculous the notion might be.
I would be sorry to see you suddenly leave in complete frustration over how things play out in this forum, IMO that would be a real shame.
If I'm incorrect in what I have gathered about you, please know I am not coming from any mean spirited place in my remarks to you, I give you my word on that. And would more than welcome your rebuttal on how much of it about you I may be mistaken over, even if I'm incorrect over all my perceptions about what you want to get from participation.
I find you interesting, very factual, and I really like that, but you won't make anyone in here say anything they don't want to say and on that I really think its time to give it a rest. You know when you are right, most if us will agree with you on a lot even if we dont jump in and say so, but when you have made your point its time to go on to the next thing, or I fear you will burn out and just leave.
I have been very hard in what I have said about the conservatives and their party and would like to go on record in saying that I believe that exactly these same sort of blindness to facts could and maybe will take place with the Democratic party and it's supporters.
Its too easy to get locked into an attitude about what will work best for the people as a whole, then get tunnel vision about how things should be done and then be unaware or unable to see that it is no longer in the best interests of the people because of that narrow focus of perception.
When you have fought so hard for what wins you have managed, its easy to not realize the needs have changed, as it will and should from time to time.
I hope that all liberals will remember how easy it is and will work hard to keep good vision and be willing to let ideas and perceptions go that suddenly don't seem to work anymore. Everything changes, so then must ideas and plans.
And I hope all liberals will be willing to come out and freely say so when doubts creep in about paths and choices taken by their party---as they will and certainly should.
Adapt or get left behind.
@Mylab123 -
Thank you for taking the time to craft your insightful post.
I am realistic about the prospects of seeing a retraction/correction/apology from a conservative here, I think. But I admit to a certain fascination with what strikes me as such an alien and inexplicable syndrome. I still have not completely accepted the idea that a thinking person can be so morally bankrupt as to...co-exist, I suppose, with a non-truth. It goes far beyond simple denial, because it involves present truths, not merely inevitable future events or outcomes.
It also must make moment-to-moment living quite complicated, because some truths simply cannot be rejected without dire consequences. If your car won't start, you can't simply drive it to work on belief alone. But many things fall into some in-between zone, where the truth-rejection -- or preferential truth-creation -- come into play. Job performance, relationships, parenting; these situations and roles are rich with opportunities to engage in this peculiar brand of dishonesty without (immediate) negative consequences. I find that rather frightening.
I have no friends who deploy this brand of dishonesty (how could someone have friends who don't honor truth?), so I can't really explore this disturbing behavior through conversations with acquaintances, so this venue presents a good setting for that exploration.
Your points about being open and willing to adapt are well taken. I find that progressives tend to not only be willing to incorporate new information -- including corrections to their beliefs -- but they actively seek out quality information with a critical eye. This is because they are interested in progress, and good information -- truth -- is essential when formulating positions and policies that will actually result in progress. It seems to me that conservatives, on the other hand, prefer stasis or regression, and therefore information is actually to be feared, as it might indicate that progress could be made through changes that clash with their dug-in positions. There is definitely a certain bravery associated with people who are unafraid of truth and what truth might mean for the positions they hold. Those people -- and I count myself and many progressives among them -- have the courage to decide that they would rather put their misapprehensions behind them as soon as they possibly can when presented with clear evidence of their error, and to loudly declare their shift in position so as not to be associated with a mistake, misstatement, or falsehood one moment longer than necessary. Conservatives despise being corrected, because the new truth might undermine their position; good progressives love being corrected because it gets them closer to a better position.
I will not leave here out of frustration. I may leave here because there is simply nothing to be accomplished and at some point there will be nothing more to learn about this conservative truth-rejecting phenomenon, and the repetition of it ad nauseum will become rather depressing. Perhaps a conservative will break ranks and explain what goes on in the mind of a con at that moment when they realize they are wrong. But I doubt it.
Given the long list of equally deceptive threads started, 200 billion a day India trips (thanks Ron), fake books in the desert, a list of socialists/commies in Congress ("I have a list. A list I say!"...sound familiar?) ....to name but a few, my observation is that this dishonesty is a basic feature.
Posted by marshallz10 z9-10 CA (My Page) on
Mon, Jan 21, 13 at 6:23
Ethical behavior seems to be reserved for like-minded people and institutions; otherwise, all is fair in promoting one's POV and denigrating opponents.
Dear Marshall, always distilling hokum to reality. ;)
Mylab--I agree with a number of your points, good post.
Once upon a time people "believed" the world was flat until it was "proven by fact" that it was not ... did some still hold firmly to their "flat earth theories"?
Probably and nothing you could say and/or do would sway them from that dug in position.
This forum is very much like that ..
some still hold firmly to their "flat earth theories"
It's also an effective way to disrupt discussions.
Ego, wrong-headedness, on-line personality disorder, or deliberate tactic? Depends on the topic and the individual indulging in the behaviour.
"What I find interesting is that the best new "scandal" they've managed to whomp up is VP Biden's inaccurately describing how far a local school was from his golf course 7 years ago."
Works for me. Libs believe Biden was on a golf course, so close to the school he could hear the gun shots!
Conservatives understand that in order for Biden's tale to be true, that golf course would have to exist.
Works for me. Libs believe Biden was on a golf course, so close to the school he could hear the gun shots!
He never said he heard gunshots from the Amish schoolhouse shooting. He says he heard gunshots in the woods and he thought they were hunters. That's what he said and, guess what, maybe he did hear hunters. It's you and your con friends who are making the correlation.
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nikoleta wrote,
"What I find interesting is that the best new "scandal" they've managed to whomp up is VP Biden's inaccurately describing how far a local school was from his golf course 7 years ago."
Works for me. Libs believe Biden was on a golf course, so close to the school he could hear the gun shots!
Conservatives understand that in order for Biden's tale to be true, that golf course would have to exist
Straw man fallacy. You will be unable to produce evidence that liberals here believe Biden was on a golf course so close to the school he could hear the gunshots. Thus, your argument fails just like that. This transparent straw man technique seems pervasive here on HT, for some reason, despite the ease with which it is demolished.
When you say, "that golf course would have to exist", do you mean a golf course in the area from which shots might be heard? Moccasin Run is a few miles away, and gunshots can be heard from the course. Biden was clearly in error when he concluded that the shots he heard were from the school, but note that he did say it sounded like hunters in the woods. The shots that can be heard from Moccasin Run come from the other side of some woods from the golf course.
What is your response when you discover you have issued a misstatement? Do you immediately correct it and retract your false claim? If not, why not?
Yes, might as well get out the suitcase now.
>I may leave here because there is simply nothing to be accomplished and at some point there will be nothing more to learn about this conservative truth-rejecting phenomenon, and the repetition of it ad nauseum will become rather depressingThe best part is they will then think they have won. Of course, it will have been by stonewalling rather than having a solid factual position.
I must say, it has been great to have someone come and pick apart a bit of the rubbish, even if that person's presentation is a bit intense.
This post was edited by bboy on Mon, Jan 21, 13 at 13:37
ann_t wrote,
Factotem, You must feel like you are "Flogging a Dead Horse" trying to get a few of these people to admit to their "mistakes"
It's not entirely futile, because even a non-answer adds to my understanding of how this variety of conservative mind operates.
This post was edited by Factotem on Mon, Jan 21, 13 at 13:41
That is the pattern, Joe. And most of us get tired of pointing out there are no facts to back up their statements and let it die. I have to say I am enjoying facto's persistence. Maybe, just maybe, h/she will have better luck getting an answer. It sure is interesting!
Well then Facto will need the "patience of Job" if he/she is thinking that will ever happen.
In a recent thread I actually posted the entire bill "proving" that what the OP wrote was in fact not true, there was and will not be a retraction.
Some seem to think what they "believe is fact" and has actually been said here in the past, what can you do when those who believe the earth is flat refuse to admit it isn't?
Move on...
Well, I seem to recall that it was me who got my little calculator out and called "elvis" on that number - which was so ludicrously wrong that I found it hard to believe that any half-educated American could believe it.
However, I have been on and off this forum for many years, and know better than to look for retractions from this sort of poster. It is important to come here because you want to - for whatever twisted reason :) - not to look to improve the morals of these people. It is much more satisfying to accept them as some minor form of entertainment and realise that nobody else either believes them or takes them seriously.
Best wishes
ohiomom wrote,
Some seem to think what they "believe is fact" and has actually been said here in the past, what can you do when those who believe the earth is flat refuse to admit it isn't?
I agree; there is definitely a worldview that one can choose the truth of something; thus demifloyd's assertion that her opinion is fact as far as she is concerned. This attitude, whereby an opinion can be converted to a fact by simply blessing it as such, seems to be a common thread, and it is terribly dangerous. Likewise, the aversion to self-correction/retraction is so extreme that the existence of error is denied as a concept; falsehoods by conservatives simply are decided not to exist, by some similar conversion mechanism. Thus demifloyd's declaration that she doesn't make statements she ever wants to retract; she rejects the very concept of her being in error, so when it does happen there is no honest way to face it. It really is bizarre.
I find this is also the Faux News mentality. They can say the most outrageous things and when proven wrong, simply move on to their next scandal du jour without a word of retraction. On MSNBC I have often watched Rachael Maddow retract an erroneous statement she inadvertently made and apologize. NEVER happens on Fox and here on HT.
me too, me too, me too....liberals remind me of those little kids playing football...a conservative kid has the football and someone tackles him and the rest of the little kids run to pile on, they want to make sure everyone knows they are on the same team, high fives all around!
I think this mentality ties in very neatly with the discussion about the Sandy Hook conspiracy theory. And I don't think it's a conservative vs. liberal difference (in spite of mrsk always trying to pin whatever she thinks is bad on liberals). It has to do with sensible people vs people who have a blank spot when it comes to a certain kind of reasoning. I am as fascinated as Facto in this phenomenon.
mrskjun wrote,
me too, me too, me too....liberals remind me of those little kids playing football...a conservative kid has the football and someone tackles him and the rest of the little kids run to pile on, they want to make sure everyone knows they are on the same team, high fives all around!
To be frank, mrskjun, I'm not sure it's of interest what liberals "remind you of." This is, of course, a form of ad hominem attack, which is one of the lowest forms of argument, though I understand that you cannot rely on honest discussion techniques when the facts are not in your favor. But still.
You said,
There were 8500 people who died by firearms last year.
This statement is false. The actual number is 31,718 for 2011 (the most recent figures available), according to the CDC. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly, yet you have failed to post a retraction/correction/apology. That behavior is under discussion.
Perhaps you could contribute to the discussion by explaining why you (and other conservatives) are so afraid of admitting error that you would rather suffer the embarrassment of being exposed as being dishonest.
mrskjun wrote,
Perhaps you should get your facts straight Facto...and then you can get back to your piling on....SOB
Are you afraid to be specific?
You said,
There were 8500 people who died by firearms last year.
Your statement is false. The actual number is 31,718 for 2011 (the most recent figures available), according to the CDC.
Why are you so terrified of admitting that what you posted was wrong? It's simply stunning that you would choose to be viewed as profoundly dishonest and cowardly over being honest about admitting you were wrong.
mrskjun wrote,
Thank you Factotem...you can run along and play now...try to find some facts when you do ok? bu bye
Fascinating. You resort to patronizing, childish non-responses. The spectrum of defense mechanisms deployed by you and other conservatives when you are caught out in a falsehood is just dazzling.
Thank you for the demonstration.
"Libs believe Biden was on a golf course, so close to the school he could hear the gun shots!"
"He never said he heard gunshots from the Amish schoolhouse shooting."
No need! Joe puts himself on the golf course as the shootings take place "literally maybe" a quarter mile away!
And you believe him.
Facto and Jill: Do not let her provoke you which she is trying to do. She is trying to get you kicked out.
Not to worry, JG. I wouldn't be fooled by such childish tricks.
And you believe him.
Which I guess means you don't. Why? And, even if we went with your version of the facts, and he wasn't actually on a golf course, that means...? What is your point? Do you have one?
Nik, seriously I am not getting the significance of this story. I truly don't get what about this is so outrageous. There are so many other serious , valid, issues that could be debated seriously.
My Mom always told me to pick my battles......save my credibility and passion for the things that truly matter
nikoleta wrote,
No need! Joe puts himself on the golf course as the shootings take place "literally maybe" a quarter mile away!
And you believe him.
I'm not sure who you are addressing; please clarify.
As I already observed, Biden is clearly mistaken about the proximity of the golf course to the schoolhouse. I assume you saw my previous post on the subject and decided to ignore that statement, perhaps so you could re-post your blunderbuss attack on the liberals here.
What is your position on mrskjun's claim that "there were 8500 people who died by firearms last year"? Notice I'm not attributing to you a position you have not expressed. That's because I'm honest.
facto is a college student having fun at the expense of
everyone on this forum.
He managed in one thread to get the liberals to jump on his side and he is sitting in a dorm room laughing with his buddies at the old people throwing insults at each other.
He is accomplishing what he set out to do.
He is probably doing his dissertation on the divide of the
liberals and conservatives of today and how just one person can cause a total break down of communication.
He is going to demand links of facts from conservatives
only and keep discord alive and ugly coming from the liberals.
Some of the liberals fell for it.
He is in no position to demand anything from anyone and
will get nothing from any of the Conservatives on the forum.
Most of us can smell a rotten apple and we have one in our
Go back and read his post .
They have an ugly ring to them.
He contributes nothing but discord.
If he continues with his game he will lose.
Posted by labrea 7NYC (My Page) on Mon, Jan 21, 13 at 23:19
"Whenever I read the word libs as posted by the cons I always think of it as an expletive being put in print. This isn't the first time I'm saying it
It's just another 2 cents along with a question do you wish to be called cons?"
I like it ;D
and is there , somehow , something wrong with being a college student? I dont know what age Facto is but he/she has as much right to post on this forum as anyone else.
and all facto is doing is asking people to provide the evidence for what they assert.
Do you find that unreasoalbe City woman?
I find it refreshing that facts and logical arguments are making a comeback ( to bring this forum to what it was when people like kingturtle posted here)
I do not find it unreasonable for anyone to ask for a link.
I found Facto's method and goal very junvenile in its
arrogance and self-promotion as forum dictator.
Maybe that is how I came to my conclusion.
Nothing wrong with being a college student if you don't
use it as a bully.
Facto is a bully and will continue to be a bully causing
The liberals can have him.
I have stated my opinion and will be ignoring him from now on.


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just the Research
This week's top reports in just-drinks' research store
Here's a run-down of some of the top research reports currently available in the just-drinks research store:
The pursuit of health and wellness is one of the most powerful drivers of consumers' product choices. This presentation explores what Health & Wellness means to consumers in the Asia Pacific region, and what juice manufacturers need to do to help consumers to realise their health goals.
This report offers a comprehensive guide to the size and shape of the fruit/vegetable juice market at a national level in Colombia. It provides the latest retail sales data (2008-2012), allowing you to identify the sectors driving growth. It identifies the leading companies, the leading brands and offers strategic analysis of key factors influencing the market.
This month's review of the latest alcoholic drinks launches looks at the continued popularity of fruit flavours - and the potential emergence of herbs and vegetables - in a broad range of alcoholic drink categories. These innovations also point to a more gourmet and upscale future for products including FABs and beer.
The draw of on-trend ingredients and flavours including coconut water, stevia, and chia is proving impossible for some manufacturers to resist, as this month's rundown of novel launches in the non-alcoholic drinks industry reveals. Meanwhile, soft drinks are hoping to borrow some of soup's healthy halo, with the introduction of a 'drinking gazpacho'.
The report provides a unique mix of highly-granular market data, based upon detailed industry research, in order to offer insight into the trends and dynamics affecting spirits in Ukraine. Custom segmentation of the market provides unique views and insights for marketers on the volume, brand and distribution data, to give unparalleled insight into the market.
This report presents detailed data on the spirits consumption trends in Mexico, historic and forecast consumption volume and value at market and category level, brand share, alcoholic strength, price segmentation data, and distribution channel data. Based upon extensive secondary research, this report provides comprehensive and granular insights that allow marketers to confidently update their strategic and tactical plans.
Get a detailed picture of the wine market in the US from this report. Pinpoint growth sectors and identify factors driving change. Understand the competitive environment, the market's major players and leading brands. Use five-year forecasts to assess how the market is predicted to develop.
This report provides a full set of data, in-depth analysis and detailed insight into the grape wine manufacturing industry, market drivers, key enterprises and their strategies, as well as technologies and investment status, risks and trends.
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text:
Abstract available in
Claims available in
Description (OCR text may contain errors)
[56] References Cited UNlTED STATES PATENTS 2,478,207 8/1949 Robinson 3,230,503 1/1966 Elliot et al. 3,308,423 3/1967 Primary Examiner-William 1. Price Assistant Examiner-Philip R. Coe Attorney-Flehr, Hohbach, Test, Albritton & Herbert ABSTRACT: An electromechanical transducer for use in secondary recovery in oil wells which, in effect, produces a dipole-type radiation field of increased magnitude which extends along a single axis perpendicular to the axis of the oil well. This allows the surrounding casing to vibrate in a displacement mode rather than in a circumferential expansion Inventor Edward II. Phillips Los Altos, Calif. Appl. No 853,821 Filed Aug. 28, 1969 Patented June 8, 1971 Assignee Electro-Sonlc Oil Tools, Inc.
Mountain View, Calif.
ELECTRO-MECHANICAL TRANSDUCER FOR SECONDARY OIL RECOVERY 7 Claims, 5 Drawing Figs.
United States Patent I l l l l l l mode, to enable energy coupling to the surrounding oilproducing formation. In specific form of the invention, the transducer includes two resonant beams forced to vibrate at an audio or sonic frequency by piezoelectric element stacks driven by an external electrical power source and transferring energy through additive shear waves to an external body.
259/1, l66/l77, 3l0/8.6, 340/10 so FieldofSearch.............................. 259/Dig. 4!, Dig. 42, Dig. 43, 1; l66/l77,249; BIO/8.3, 8.5,
PATENTED JUN 8 I97! SHEET 1 OF 2 INVENTOR. EDWARD H. PHILLIPS BY J ,44, M47117} ATTORNEYS ELECTRO-MECHANICAL TRANSDUCER FOR SECONDARY OIL RECOVERY BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION The present invention is directed to an electromechanical transducer for secondary oil recovery and more particularly to a transducer which, because of its vibratory mode, effectively couples mechanical or sonic energy ofincreased magnitude to an oil-producing formation.
Underground oil is dispersed throughout the tiny pore spaces and hairline cracks of rock formations. When a well penetrates the rock, the static pressure head present in the formation drives some of the oil up the well bore. There are four types of natural recovery drives; expansion of gas dissolved in oil; pressure on the oil from expansion of a gas cap above it; force of water on the oil from below or from the edge of the field; and the weight of the oil itself in deeply dipping formations.
Sometimes these natural drives are so strong they not only move oil into the wells, but push it up to the surface. In many fields, however, the natural pressure is just enough to deliver the oil to the well bore, and it must be pumped to the surface.
On the average, nature provides reservoir rock and fluid conditions that allow production of only 25 percent of the oil in a reservoir, leaving 75 percent still dispersed in the rock. Techniques to recover this remaining 75 percent are known as secondary recovery." Secondary recovery broadly includes methods of injecting liquids or gases into oil reservoirs to drive or flush additional oil from them. Injected fluid displaces oil in the reservoir in essence providing a manmade or artificial pressure head. Major types of secondary recovery include gas injection, water injection, steam injection, underground combustion, and miscible drive.
Secondary recovery is especially useful and necessary in shallow viscous type oil fields such as are found in California.
Another secondary recovery technique which has been used in conjunction with the other techniques or by itself in an attempt to remove flow-impeding materials has been vibrations using sonic wave energy. An electroacoustic or mechanicalacoustic transducer is lowered in the well which radiates sonic waves into the oil-bearing formations surrounding a well to open up blocked passages to thereby increase the flow of petroleum fluid from the formation to the well bore. While advantages of this sound energy technique have been appreciated for many years, prior attempts to generate useful energy have suffered from a condition known as insufficient transductance." In other words, the amount of energy transferred from the transducer to the surrounding oil fluid of the oil formation and, in addition, the distance it is transferred has been severely limited. Part of the difficulty is the necessity of transferring the energy through the casing of the oil well. Calculations and theory show that in the prior art sonic energy techniques, the energy is reflected by the casing. As a result, there is insufficient transductance. As a consequence, the sonic technique has not found wide acceptance.
In addition to secondary recovery per se, many oil fields require treatment for foreign material deposition in and immediately around the casing in the producing zone. These deposits are often rock like deposits of salts of the alkaline earth metals such as calcium and barium sulfate and carbonate. They occur predominately in the last few inches of the unfractured formation, the fractures, the perforations, and within the casing. The catalyst aiding deposition appears to be the rapid loss of fluid pressure at the last few inches of formation. Since the deposits reduce flow generally, virtually full formation pressure appears immediately outside the well bore and accentuates the rapid pressureless condition. The deposition process may in some cases be regenerative.
These deposits are normally treated by applying acid to the oil well in large quantities. The acid process is effective in removing deposits but is expensive, injurous to the metallic components of the well and often to the formation itself, and is not of a lasting nature.
SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION AND OBJECTS Accordingly, it is a general object of the invention to provide an improved electromechanical transducer and transduction system for effectively coupling energy to a fluid medium, such as an oil-bearing formation.
It is a more specific object of the invention to provide a transducer as above which is effective in secondary oil recovery.
It is another object of the invention to provide a transducer as above which is effective both in cleaning deposits from oil well bore regions and in preventing their reaccumulation.
It is another object of the invention to provide an electromechanical transducer for use in oil wells which effectively transfers energy through the casing of the oil well to the surrounding oil formation.
It is another object of the invention to provide an improved method for secondary oil recovery with the use of the above transducer.
It is another object of the invention to provide an improved method of well bore and formation deposit cleaning with the use of the above transducer.
It is another object of the invention to provide a transducer which includes transducer stacks matched to the surrounding medium by attached vibratory beams transmitting energy by shear waves to a surrounding body in contact with said medi- In accordance with the above objects, there is provided an electromechanical transducer for use in an oil well which extends along a predetermined axis. The transducer has a major effective radiating surface providing radiation perpendicular to the predetermined oil well axis, the major force pattern being directed along an axis perpendicular to the oil well axis.
In a more specific form 'the transducer itself includes moment producing vibratory element stacks with means for driving the elements. An outside body interfaces with a third medium such as oil and includes two cavities having eoaxially predetermined geometrical axes. Reaction masses forming the outer ends of two vibrating beams in combination with the vibratory elements entend at least partially within the cavities. The vibratory elements provide spring like coupling to the body and couple the vibrating energy to the body through additive shear waves present during vibration.
BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE DRAWINGS FIG. I is a cross-sectional view partially cut away of an oil well casing with an electromechanical transducer embodying the present invention inserted therein;
FIG. 2 is an enlarged cross-sectional view taken along line 2-2 of FIG. 1;
FIG. 3 is an enlarged cross-sectional view taken along line 3-3 of FIG. 1;
FIG. 4 is a cross-sectional view taken substantially along line 4-4 of FIG. 1 and illustrating the electromechanical transducer of the present invention along with lines of force indicating the path of energy transmission into the surrounding formation; and
FIG. 5 is a circuit schematic useful in understanding the invention.
DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF PREFERRED EMBODIMENTS Referring now to FIG. 1, there is illustrated the lower end portion of an oil well showing a casing 11 having the usual perforation 12 to allow oil to flow in from the surrounding oilbearing formation indicated at I3. Pump means are associated with the casing whereby the oil can be pumped to the surface. In the example shown, the pump means includes a pump tube 14 which extends downwardly from the surface along the interior of the casing 11. An actuating rod 16 is located in the interior of the pump tube 14. The rod is coupled to a pump schematically shown at block 17. The inlet of the pump is shown at 18. Up and down movement of actuating rod 16 causes suction to be created at 18 to allow entry of any available fluid or oil at inlet 18 to be pumped to the surface through tube 14. Pump 17 would normally be contained within the diameter of the pump tube.
An electromechanical transducer 20 is supported at the bottom of the pump tube 14 in proximity to the oil-bearing formation 13. It is apparent that the output power to the formation l3 may be increased proportionate to the number of transducers serially connected to the bottom of the pump tube 14.
It should be appreciated at this point that although a pump assembly l6, 17, 18 has been illustrated. in flowing wells, where there is sufficient natural pressure, the pump is not required. Also, for other applications where pressure is applied, for example, by a water flood method or gas infusion, the pump may not be required.
The construction of the electromechanical transducer is illustrated in FIG. 1. The transducer is composed of an elongated cylindrical housing 21 which includes coaxial cavities 22 and 23 separated by an integrated web 15. Web 15 is supported in housing 21 by a thin flange portion 15'. The flange is made integral to the housing beam welding two halves of the housing to the flange. Reaction masses 24 and 25 are inserted within cavities 22 and 23 respectively and assembled compressively with vibratory piezoelectric element stacks 26 and 27, by stud 28 and nuts 30. Each stack contains multiple elements 31 polarized in one direction (marked 1+) at one end, and in the other direction (marked at the other end as shown in FIG. 2. Each element has two metallic coatings 32 on one side and one metallic coating 33 on the other side, as in FIG. 3, to enable the bidirectional polarization and to enable electrical connection within thetransducer. The piezoelectric elements are mounted in facing pairs as indicated by the small arrow directions in FIG. 1 and the inversely facing elements of FIG. 2 and HO. 3. Compliant metallic plates 34 and 35 are compressed between elements 31 as shown. Ground wires 36 connect plates 35 and therefore four of coatings 33 to ground (body) potential. Lead wire 37 is connected to each of plates 34 and therefore to each of the eight sets of coatings 32. Similar plates 38 are installed at the remaining joints between the stacks 26 and 27 and center web 15.
All the piezoelectric elements 31 and therefore stacks 26 and 27 are driven in synchronous and mirror image movement producing modes by the application of altematin g voltage to the lead wire 37 since all positive polarized ends and all negative polarized ends are each exclusively axially colinear. Thus, the left side of the stacks expand while the right sides contract for one line voltage polarity and then mutually invert state for the opposite polarity. Generally the combinations of reaction mass 24 and stack 26 and reaction mass 25 and stack 27 form continuous cantilevered beams. Each beam assembly is forced to vibrate laterally with masses 24 and 25 moving as indicated by the arrows 24' and 25' thereby creating bending moments and shear forces at the beam assembly center section 15 boundaries as indicated by arrow 21'. The housing 21 suffers no direct reaction due to the moments because their simultaneous mirror image application results in mutual cancellation. This is further ensured by the presence of thin web flange 15 which isolates the outer portion of housing 21 from any residual asymmetrical vibration pattern. This in turn assures that there will be only one resonant beam frequency since both are therefore able to vibrate in a single free-free beam mode. Therefore, the shear wave reactions sum to yield body motion as shown by the arrow 21' in center area 15.
The distributed efiective spring constant and mass determine the resonant frequency of beams 24, 26 and 25, 27. This frequency may be determined by the Timoshenko theory of thick resonant beams which takes shear deformation and section moment of inertia into account in its eigenvalue solution. The resonant frequency is chosen so that it is resonant with the resonant cavity formed by the oil-filled circumferential gap 39 defined by the outer surface of cylindrical housing 21 and the inside surface of the well casing 11. The resonant frequency of the transducer is determined by the mean circumference of the gap. The resonant wavelength A, which determines the frequency of operation, equals the circumference It is, of course, apparent that there will be resonances at harmonic frequencies of the fundamental.
When the transducer is operated at resonance, the housing 21 and reaction masses 24 and 25 move in opposite directions as indicated by arrows 21 25' and 24' (see also FIG. 3). This, in turn, causes the transducer assembly to move back and forth in a direction substantially perpendicular to its longitudinal axis. The energy is transferred through the oil in the cavity, through the casing 11 and into the formation where it radiates outwardly in a dipole pattern as will be more fully explained below.
The lead wire 37 is also attached to connector 40, which is hermetically sealed to fitting end 41. Plain end 42 is fitted at the bottom although a second fitting end could be used if it is desired to make connection to the bottom end to accommodate other transducers below the transducer assembly 20. The entire body 21 is hermetically sealed by electron beam welds and is thus compatible with rough oil field use.
In operation, the motion of reaction masses 24 and 25 is built up until the spring reaction force drives the body 21 with enough amplitude against the impressed load of the cavity-formation system to consume the applied power in sound power transmitted to the formation. Sound power is transferred to the surrounding formation by a combination of the RMS values of the factors of velocity of movement of the casing multiplied by the force of such movement. The sound power may be further described as the formation acoustic impedance times the total transducer plan area times the square of the casing RMS velocity or also as the product of the plan area times the sound RMS pressure squared divided by the acoustic impedance. This power or work rate must, of course, equal the electrical energy coupled into the system from the power source.
It has been observed that when the system comes into full operation with the masses vibrating at their normal amplitude and driving the resonant cavity at resonance, the applied current from the power source substantially comes into phase with the applied voltage thus indicating an efficient transfer of electrical energy to the mechanical energy form which is in the form of sonic energy to the surrounding oil formation.
The present assembly is more efficient than that described in patent application, Ser. No. 76l,l39, now US. Pat. No. 3,527,300 filed Sept. 20, 1968 with the present inventor and entitled Electro-Mechanical Transducer for Secondary Oil Recovery and Method Therefore." This may be seen by referring to the equivalent circuit shown in FIG. 5. Alternating electrical voltage is applied to lead 50 (equivalent to lead wire 37) to transformer 52 (equivalent to the electromechanical coupling of piezoelectric elements 31) and shunted by the actual parallel plate capacitance 51 of the elements 26, 27. The transformer load is the series combination of inductor 53 (equivalent to the effective resonant mass), capacitor 54 (equivalent to the effective spring compliance l/k), and resistor 55 (equivalent to the acoustic load). Because resonant.
frequency is f= k Because of the use of a bending 21r m mode rather than an extentional one, k has been reduced. Therefore the mass, m, is also reduced. The mechanical imthe vibratory radiation from the transducer forms a major transmission pattern which is directed along a single axis 57 which is perpendicular to the vertical axis of the oil well. This, of course, means that it is also perpendicular to the axis of the casing 11.
The radiation field pattern 56 can be roughly analogized to the radiation pattern of a dipole antenna where the antenna has a double-lobe energy distribution pattern illustrated in dashed lines at 58 and 59.
Since the force field of the present invention is similar to the dipole antenna, it is believed that certain precautions as to the design of the transducer with respect to the frequency used must be taken. it has been found that the circumferential distance around the outer periphery of body 21 should be substantially equal to or greater than one wavelength in free liquid. If it is less than this, the sonic vibrations in one direction might tend to cancel those being produced on the other side of the transducer. For this reason, it is important to avoid too low a frequency since the effective gap between the two sides of the transducer along the axis 57 will have the appearance of a leak path and lower the efficiency of the transducer.
From yet another aspect, although a type of dipole radiation field is created, the medium itself, i.e., the oil bearing formation loss media, is not the same as that with a dipole antenna loss media. More specifically, the wavelength of sound in the medium, for example, oil, is the same order of magnitude as the flow path length of the oil. Thus, there may be preferred motion paths. Secondly, the medium is lossy from a sonic energy standpoint and thus the flow field has circulation and does not follow LaPlaces Theorem. Lastly, there will normally be a considerable energy scattering effect 'since there are particles and discontinuities present in the medium.
A transducer assembly was constructed and tested. The transducer assembly comprised a body 21 4% inches OD having 3 1/16 inch, lD cylindrical bores 4 inches deep. The body was inches long with a 34-inch thick center web with 'r-inch thick insulation. The piezoelectric elements 31 were 2% inches long by 1% inches wide by inch thick. The reaction masses 24 and 25 were 17; inches thick to account for a cantilever beam length of 3% inches. The transducer assembly was placed in a casing having a 5 5% inch 0D and a 4.9 inch ID. The pump inlet 18 was approximately 30 feet above the transducer assembly to ensure sufficient liquid pressure about the transducer to eliminate cavitation.
Thus, the present invention provides an improved transducer for secondary oil recovery which is highly efficient. The
invention is particularly useful in eliminating foreign material deposition.
I. An electromechanical transducer for coupling energy to a fluid medium comprising, a body elongated -along a predetermined axis having first and second coaxial cavities separated by web means integral to said body, first and second vibratory means at least partially within said respective cavities and having first endsmounted to said web means to place said vibratory means in coaxial relationship, reaction means coupled to the other ends of said first and second vibratory means, said vibratory means having a mode of vibration to move said reaction means in planes substantially perpendicular to said axis of said body, and means for placing said first and second vibratory means in synchronous vibration.
2. An electromechanical transducer as in claim 1 where said cavities are sealed to exclude said fluid medium.
3. An electromechanical transducer as in claim 1 where each of said vibratory means includes a stack'of piezoelectric elements having a bidirectional polarization.
4. An electromechanical transducer as in claim 1 where said means for placing said vibratory means in synchronous vibration includes a source of alternating voltage.
5. An electromechanical transducer as in claim) where the mechanical impedance of said transducer is where k is the effective spring compliance of the transducer and m the mass of the transducer and where k is primarily determined by the bending mode of said transducer.
6. An electromechanical transducer adapted to be disposed in a well casing to couple energy to the fluid and formation surrounding said casing com rising, a body elongated along a predetermined axis having lrst and second coaxial cavities separated by web means integral to said body, first and second. vibrating means respectively cantilevered on said web means, each of said vibrating means including vibratory elements and a reaction mass, said vibrating elements in combination with said reaction mass forming cantilevered beams having an axis substantially coincident with said predetermined axis, means for placing said vibratory elements in synchronous vibration whereby vibrating energy is coupled to said body through additive shear waves produced by said beams vibrating in a freefree mode.
7. An electromechanical transducer as in claim 6 where said web means includes a relatively thin flange portion coupling said web means to said body.
Patent Citations
Referenced by
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wanted: wanted: hydrangea 'madame emile mouillere'
watsonhill(6)June 17, 2010
Anyone in the South Shore of MA interested in exchanging 'Madame Emile Mouillere' hydrangea for any of the following that I can offer:
- creeping junipers
- blue mophead hydrangea
- purple azalea
- blue princess holly
- white lilac
Each of the above referenced varieties is no less than 5 years old and are very vigorous and healthy beauties.
I am trying to simplify and would be looking to exchange for some quality specimens.
Many Thanks,


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Top Definition
(v)synonymous with annihilated, a shortened form of the word used by one while exhibiting the quality and or essence of being annihilated - to be completely and utterly drunk and or stoned out of one's conscious mind.
Crucial: Damn dog, I'm straight nihilated!
Me: Oh yeah, arent you always "nihilated?"
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by 7h0rn3 January 21, 2008


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when to pronounce begonia tubers dead
I'm having trouble waking up five begonia tubers, and I'm wondering if I should just give up and pronounce them dead.
I overwintered three of the tubers, and these are all quite small -- about the size of a quarter; the other two are large tubers (4 inches or so) that were purchased only a few months ago (from Hirts.com). Two of the small tubers are the "On-top" variety, but I don't know what the third is; the large tubers are a Skagum and a Daffodil-type.
I've had all of these in my 66-degree laundry room for 3 weeks, and they haven't broken dormancy. I even gave them a hot-water bath about a week ago(following the directions given on the Canadian Begonia Society's webpage). They're being stored in individual bags in a cardboard box. All of the tubers are firm; there are no mushy spots.
Am I doing anything wrong? Do the tubers need light to break dormancy? Is there any way to determine if they're dead? Or should I just stop being an impatient newbie?
Try to place them on top of a pot of damp, warm peatmoss sphagnum (e.g. with bottom heat, etc). Place the tubers up-side-down (the hollow side down, rounded side up). Leave them at 75F for 2-3 weeks, and they should sprout. check every few days. once they sprout, turn them right side up (hollow side up) and plant them as normal.


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