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In one week, it's 44CON time again! One of our favourite UK hacker cons. In keeping with our desire to make more hackers, we're giving several sets of training courses as well as a talk this year.
Training: Hacking by Numbers - Mobile Edition
If you're in a rush, you can book here.
We launched it at Blackhat USA, and nobody threw anything rotting, in-fact some said it went pretty well; our latest addition to the Hacking by Numbers training.
We created the course to share our experience testing mobile applications and platforms, and well, because lots of people asked us to. The course shows you how to test mobile platforms and installed applications for vulnerabilities. HBN Mobile provides a pretty complete and practical overview into the methods used when attacking mobile platforms and presents you with a methodology that can be applied across platforms (although we focus on iOS and Android). This course is mostly for existing penetration testers who are new to the mobile area looking to learn how to understand, analyse and audit applications on various mobile platforms.
For more information about the course, and to book a place, head over here.
Workshop: Malware Reverse Engineering
If we were marketing to hipsters, we'd use words like "bespoke" and "handcrafted" to describe this workshop. While it's not made out of yams, it was put together especially for 44con.
Inaki and Siavosh's workshop will cut through the black-magic often associated with reverse engineering and malware. Advanced attacks usually have some form of malware involved, and learning to pull these apart to understand the kill chain is an increasingly vital skill.
Using real malware used in attacks against large corporates, students will look at both behavioural analysis and code analysis, to determine what the malware does.
If you're keen to attend, speak to the 44con crew at the front desk on arrival.
Talk: 'Honey, I'm Home' - Hacking Zwave Home Automation Systems
Behrang and Sahand will be presenting the results of their research into smart homes on day two at 09:30am.
"Smart homes" employing a variety of home automation systems are becoming increasingly common. Heating, ventilation, security and entertainment systems are centrally controlled with a mixture of wired and wireless networking. In 2011 the UK market for home automation products was estimated at GBP 65 million, an increase of 12% on the previous year, with the US market exceeding $3 billion. Zigbee and Z-Wave wireless protocols underpin most home automation systems. Z-Wave is growing in popularity as it does not conflict with existing 2.4GHz WiFi and Bluetooth systems.
Their talk describes the Z-Wave protocol and a number of weaknesses, including how to build a low-cost attack kit to perform packet capture and injection, along with potential attacks on the AES crypto implementation. Bottom line: they can walk up to a house, disable security sensors, then open the front door. LIKE A BOSS
We are publishing the research paper and tool for our BlackHat 2013 USA talk on the Z-Wave proprietary wireless protocol security. The paper introduces our Z-Wave packet interception and injection toolkit (Z-Force) that was used to analyze the security layer of Z-Wave protocol stack and discover the implementation details of the frame encryption, data origin authentication and key establishment process. We developed the Z-Force module to perform security tests against the implementation of the Z-Wave security layer in encrypted home automation devices such as a door locks. The paper describes the details of a critical vulnerability discovered in a Z-Wave door lock that could enable an attacker to remotely take full control of the target device without knowledge of the network encryption key. The Z-Force download archive contains the GUI program and two radio firmware files for the receiver and transmitter TI CC1110 boards.
This research will also be presented at 44Con 2013 in London next month, followed by the release of Z-Force source code and US frequency support (908.4 MHz) in the firmware.
Link to conference page and paper: http://research.sensepost.com/conferences/2013/bh_zwave
Link to Z-Force project and download page: http://research.sensepost.com/tools/embedded/zforce
New types of mobile applications based on Trusted Execution Environments (TEE) and most notably ARM TrustZone micro-kernels are emerging which require new types of security assessment tools and techniques. In this blog post we review an example TrustZone application on a Galaxy S3 phone and demonstrate how to capture communication between the Android application and TrustZone OS using an instrumented version of the Mobicore Android library. We also present a security issue in the Mobicore kernel driver that could allow unauthorised communication between low privileged Android processes and Mobicore enabled kernel drivers such as an IPSEC driver.
Mobicore OS :
The Samsung Galaxy S III was the first mobile phone that utilized ARM TrustZone feature to host and run a secure micro-kernel on the application processor. This kernel named Mobicore is isolated from the handset's Android operating system in the CPU design level. Mobicore is a micro-kernel developed by Giesecke & Devrient GmbH (G&D) which uses TrustZone security extension of ARM processors to create a secure program execution and data storage environment which sits next to the rich operating system (Android, Windows , iOS) of the Mobile phone or tablet. The following figure published by G&D demonstrates Mobicore's architecture :
Mobicore API:
The security critical applications that run inside Mobicore OS are referred to as trustlets and are developed by third-parties such as banks and content providers. The trustlet software development kit includes library files to develop, test and deploy trustlets as well as Android applications that communicate with relevant trustlets via Mobicore API for Android. Trustlets need to be encrypted, digitally signed and then remotely provisioned by G&D on the target mobile phone(s). Mobicore API for Android consists of the following 3 components:
1) Mobicore client library located at /system/lib/libMcClient.so: This is the library file used by Android OS or Dalvik applications to establish communication sessions with trustlets on the secure world
2) Mobicore Daemon located at /system/bin/mcDriverDaemon: This service proxies Mobicore commands and responses between NWd and SWd via Mobicore device driver
3) Mobicore device driver: Registers /dev/mobicore device and performs ARM Secure Monitor Calls (SMC) to switch the context from NWd to SWd
The source code for the above components can be downloaded from Google Code. I enabled the verbose debug messages in the kernel driver and recompiled a Samsung S3 kernel image for the purpose of this analysis. Please note that you need to download the relevant kernel source tree and stock ROM for your S3 phone kernel build number which can be found in "Settings->About device". After compiling the new zImage file, you would need to insert it into a custom ROM and flash your phone. To build the custom ROM I used "Android ROM Kitchen 0.217" which has the option to unpack zImage from the stock ROM, replace it with the newly compiled zImage and pack it again.
1) Android application calls mcOpenDevice() API which cause the Mobicore Daemon (/system/bin/mcDriverDaemon) to open a handle to /dev/mobicore misc device.
2) It then allocates a "Worlds share memory" (WSM) buffer by calling mcMallocWsm() that cause the Mobicore kernel driver to allocate wsm buffer with the requested size and map it to the user space application process. This shared memory buffer would later be used by the android application and trustlet to exchange commands and responses.
3) The mcOpenSession() is called with the UUID of the target trustlet (10 bytes value, for instance : ffffffff000000000003 for PlayReady DRM truslet) and allocate wsm address to establish a session with the target trustlet through the allocated shared memory.
4) Android applications have the option to attach additional memory buffers (up to 6 with maximum size of 1MB each) to the established session by calling mcMap() API. In case of PlayReady DRM trustlet which is used by the Samsung VideoHub application, two additional buffers are attached: one for sending and receiving the parameters and the other for receiving trustlet's text output.
5) The application copies the command and parameter types to the WSM along with the parameter values in second allocated buffer and then calls mcNotify() API to notify the Mobicore that a pending command is waiting in the WSM to be dispatched to the target trustlet.
6) The mcWaitNotification() API is called with the timeout value which blocks until a response received from the trustlet. If the response was not an error, the application can read trustlets' returned data, output text and parameter values from WSM and the two additional mapped buffers.
7) At the end of the session the application calls mcUnMap, mcFreeWsm and mcCloseSession .
The Mobicore kernel driver is the only component in the android operating system that interacts directly with Mobicore OS by use of ARM CPU's SMC instruction and Secure Interrupts . The interrupt number registered by Mobicore kernel driver in Samsung S3 phone is 47 that could be different for other phone or tablet boards. The Mobicore OS uses the same interrupt to notify the kernel driver in android OS when it writes back data.
Analysis of a Mobicore session:
There are currently 5 trustlets pre-loaded on the European S3 phones as listed below:
shell@android:/ # ls /data/app/mcRegistry
The 07010000000000000000000000000000.tlbin is the "Content Management" trustlet which is used by G&D to install/update other trustlets on the target phones. The 00060308060501020000000000000000.tlbin and ffffffff000000000000000000000003.tlbin are DRM related truslets developed by Discretix. I chose to analyze PlayReady DRM trustlet (ffffffff000000000000000000000003.tlbin), as it was used by the Samsung videohub application which is pre-loaded on the European S3 phones.
The videohub application dose not directly communicate with PlayReady trustlet. Instead, the Android DRM manager loads several DRM plugins including libdxdrmframeworkplugin.so which is dependent on libDxDrmServer.so library that makes Mobicore API calls. Both of these libraries are closed source and I had to perform dynamic analysis to monitor communication between libDxDrmServer.so and PlayReady trustlet. For this purpose, I could install API hooks in android DRM manager process (drmserver) and record the parameter values passed to Mobicore user library (/system/lib/libMcClient.so) by setting LD_PRELOAD environment variable in the init.rc script and flash my phone with the new ROM. I found this approach unnecessary, as the source code for Mobicore user library was available and I could add simple instrumentation code to it which saves API calls and related world shared memory buffers to a log file. In order to compile such modified Mobicore library, you would need to the place it under the Android source code tree on a 64 bit machine (Android 4.1.1 requires 64 bit machine to compile) with 30 GB disk space. To save you from this trouble, you can download a copy of my Mobicore user library from here. You need to create the empty log file at /data/local/tmp/log and replace this instrumented library with the original file (DO NOT FORGET TO BACKUP THE ORIGINAL FILE). If you reboot the phone, the Mobicore session between Android's DRM server and PlayReady trustlet will be logged into /data/local/tmp/log. A sample of such session log is shown below:
The content and address of the shared world memory and two additional mapped buffers are recorded in the above file. The command/response format in wsm buffer is very similar to APDU communication in smart card applications and this is not a surprise, as G&D has a long history in smart card technology. The next step is to interpret the command/response data, so that we can manipulate them later and observe the trustlet behavior. The trustlet's output in text format together with inspecting the assembly code of libDxDrmServer.so helped me to figure out the PlayReady trustlet command and response format as follows:
client command (wsm) : 08022000b420030000000001000000002500000028023000300000000500000000000000000000000000b0720000000000000000
client parameters (mapped buffer 1): 8f248d7e3f97ee551b9d3b0504ae535e45e99593efecd6175e15f7bdfd3f5012e603d6459066cc5c602cf3c9bf0f705b
trustlet response (wsm):08022000b420030000000081000000002500000028023000300000000500000000000000000000000000b0720000000000000000
trustltlet text output (mapped buffer 2):
SRVXInvokeCommand command 1000000 hSession=320b4
SRVXInvokeCommand. command = 0x1000000 nParamTypes=0x25
SERVICE_DRM_BBX_SetKeyToOemContext - pPrdyServiceGlobalContext is 32074
SERVICE_DRM_BBX_SetKeyToOemContext cbKey=48
SERVICE_DRM_BBX_SetKeyToOemContext type=5
SERVICE_DRM_BBX_SetKeyToOemContext iExpectedSize match real size=48
SERVICE_DRM_BBX_SetKeyToOemContext preparing local buffer DxDecryptAsset start - iDatatLen=32, pszInData=0x4ddf4 pszIntegrity=0x4dde4
DxDecryptAsset calling Oem_Aes_SetKey DxDecryptAsset
calling DRM_Aes_CtrProcessData DxDecryptAsset
calling DRM_HMAC_CreateMAC iDatatLen=32 DxDecryptAsset
after calling DRM_HMAC_CreateMAC DxDecryptAsset
END SERVICE_DRM_BBX_SetKeyToOemContext
calling DRM_BBX_SetKeyToOemContext
SRVXInvokeCommand.id=0x1000000 res=0x0
By mapping the information disclosed in the trustlet text output to the client command the following format was derived:
08022000 : virtual memory address of the text output buffer in the secure world (little endian format of 0x200208)
b4200300 : PlayReady session ID
00000001: Command ID (0x1000000)
00000000: Error code (0x0 = no error, is set by truslet after mcWaitNotification)
25000000: Parameter type (0x25)
28023000: virtual memory address of the parameters buffer in the secure world (little endian format of 0x300228)
30000000: Parameters length in bytes (0x30, encrypted key length)
05000000: encryption key type (0x5)
The trustlet receives client supplied memory addresses as input data which could be manipulated by an attacker. We'll test this attack later. The captured PlayReady session involved 18 command/response pairs that correspond to the following high level diagram of PlayReady DRM algorithm published by G&D. I couldn't find more detailed specification of the PlayReady DRM on the MSDN or other web sites. But at this stage, I was not interested in the implementation details of the PlayReady schema, as I didn't want to attack the DRM itself, but wanted to find any exploitable issue such as a buffer overflow or memory disclosure in the trustlet.
Security Tests:
An attacker would need to know the "sequence number" of an already established netlink connection between a kernel component such as IPSEC and Mobicore driver in order to exploit this vulnerability. This sequence numbers were incremental starting from zero but currently there is no kernel component on the Samsung phone that uses the Mobicore API, thus this issue was not a high risk. We notified the vendor about this issue 6 months ago but haven't received any response regarding the planned fix. The following figures demonstrate exploitation of this issue from an Android unprivileged process :
|wsm offset
|Memory address of the mapped output buffer in trustlet process (original value=0x08022000)
|for values<0x8022000 the fuzzer crashed
values >0x8022000 no errors
|memory address of the parameter mapped buffer in trusltet process (original value=0x28023000)
|0x00001000<value<0x28023000 the fuzzer crashed
value>=00001000 trustlet exits with "parameter refers to secure memory area"
value>0x28023000 no errors
|Parameter length (encryption key or certificate file length)
|For large numbers the trustlet exits with "malloc() failed" message
We demonstrated that intercepting and manipulating the worlds share memory (WSM) data can be used to gain better knowledge about the internal workings of Mobicore trustlets. We believe that this method can be combined with the side channel measurements to perform blackbox security assessment of the mobile TEE applications. The context switching and memory sharing between normal and secure world could be subjected to side channel attacks in specific cases and we are focusing our future research on this area.
You've probably never thought of this, but the home automation market in the US was worth approximately $3.2 billion in 2010 and is expected to exceed $5.5 billion in 2016.
Under the hood, the Zigbee and Z-wave wireless communication protocols are the most common used RF technology in home automation systems. Zigbee is based on an open specification (IEEE 802.15.4) and has been the subject of several academic and practical security researches. Z-wave is a proprietary wireless protocol that works in the Industrial, Scientific and Medical radio band (ISM). It transmits on the 868.42 MHz (Europe) and 908.42MHz (United States) frequencies designed for low-bandwidth data communications in embedded devices such as security sensors, alarms and home automation control panels.
Unlike Zigbee, almost no public security research has been done on the Z-Wave protocol except once during a DefCon 2011 talk when the presenter pointed to the possibility of capturing the AES key exchange ... until now. Our Black Hat USA 2013 talk explores the question of Z-Wave protocol security and show how the Z-Wave protocol can be subjected to attacks.
The talk is being presented by Behrang Fouladi a Principal Security Researcher at SensePost, with some help on the hardware side from our friend Sahand Ghanoun. Behrang is one of our most senior and most respected analysts. He loves poetry, movies with Owen Wilson, snowboarding and long walks on the beach. Wait - no - that's me. Behrang's the guy who lives in London and has a Masters from Royal Holloway. He's also the guy who figured how to clone the SecureID software token.
Amazingly, this is the 11th time we've presented at Black Hat Las Vegas. We try and keep track of our talks and papers at conferences on our research services site, but for your reading convenience, here's a summary of our Black Hat talks over the last decade:
2002: Setiri : Advances in trojan technology (Roelof Temmingh)
Setiri was the first publicized trojan to implement the concept of using a web browser to communicate with its controller and caused a stir when we presented it in 2002. We were also very pleased when it got referenced by in a 2004 book by Ed Skoudis.
2003: Putting the tea back into cyber terrorism (Charl van der Walt, Roelof Temmingh and Haroon Meer)
A paper about targeted, effective, automated attacks that could be used in countrywide cyber terrorism. A worm that targets internal networks was also discussed as an example of such an attack. In some ways, the thinking in this talk eventually lead to the creation of Maltego.
2004: When the tables turn (Charl van der Walt, Roelof Temmingh and Haroon Meer)
This paper presented some of the earliest ideas on offensive strike-back as a network defence methodology, which later found their way into Neil Wyler's 2005 book "Aggressive Network Self-Defence".
2005: Assessment automation (Roelof Temmingh)
Our thinking around pentest automation, and in particular footprinting and link analyses was further expanded upon. Here we also released the first version of our automated footprinting tool - "Bidiblah".
2006: A tail of two proxies (Roelof Temmingh and Haroon Meer)
In this talk we literally did introduce two proxy tools. The first was "Suru', our HTTP MITM proxy and a then-contender to the @stake Web Proxy. Although Suru has long since been bypassed by excellent tools like "Burp Proxy" it introduced a number of exciting new concepts, including trivial fuzzing, token correlation and background directory brute-forcing. Further improvements included timing analysis and indexable directory checks. These were not available in other commercial proxies at the time, hence our need to write our own.
Another pioneering MITM proxy - WebScarab from OWASP - also shifted thinking at the time. It was originally written by Rogan Dawes, our very own pentest team leader.
The second proxy we introduced operated at the TCP layer, leveraging off the very excellent Scappy packet manipulation program. We never took that any further, however.
2007: It's all about timing (Haroon Meer and Marco Slaviero)
This was one of my favourite SensePost talks. It kicked off a series of research projects concentrating on timing-based inference attacks against all kinds of technologies and introduced a weaponized timing-based data exfiltration attack in the form of our Squeeza SQL Injection exploitation tool (you probably have to be South African to get the joke). This was also the first talk in which we Invented Our Own Acronym.
2008: Pushing a camel through the eye of a needle (Haroon Meer, Marco Slaviero & Glenn Wilkinson)
In this talk we expanded on our ideas of using timing as a vector for data extraction in so-called 'hostile' environments. We also introduced our 'reDuh' TCP-over-HTTP tunnelling tool. reDuh is a tool that can be used to create a TCP circuit through validly formed HTTP requests. Essentially this means that if we can upload a JSP/PHP/ASP page onto a compromised server, we can connect to hosts behind that server trivially. We also demonstrated how reDuh could be implemented under OLE right inside a compromised SQL 2005 server, even without 'sa' privileges.
2009: Clobbering the cloud (Haroon Meer, Marco Slaviero and Nicholas Arvanitis)
Yup, we did cloud before cloud was cool. This was a presentation about security in the cloud. Cloud security issues such as privacy, monoculture and vendor lock-in are discussed. The cloud offerings from Amazon, Salesforce and Apple as well as their security were examined. We got an email from Steve "Woz" Wozniak, we quoted Dan Geer and we had a photo of Dino Daizovi. We built an HTTP brute-forcer on Force.com and (best of all) we hacked Apple using an iPhone.
2010: Cache on delivery (Marco Slaviero)
This was a presentation about mining information from memcached. We introduced go-derper.rb, a tool we developed for hacking memcached servers and gave a few examples, including a sexy hack of bps.org. It seemed like people weren't getting our point at first, but later the penny dropped and we've to-date had almost 50,000 hits on the presentation on Slideshare.
2011: Sour pickles (Marco Slaviero)
Python's Pickle module provides a known capability for running arbitrary Python functions and, by extension, permitting remote code execution; however there is no public Pickle exploitation guide and published exploits are simple examples only. In this paper we described the Pickle environment, outline hurdles facing a shellcoder and provide guidelines for writing Pickle shellcode. A brief survey of public Python code was undertaken to establish the prevalence of the vulnerability, and a shellcode generator and Pickle mangler were written. Output from the paper included helpful guidelines and templates for shellcode writing, tools for Pickle hacking and a shellcode library.We also wrote a very fancy paper about it all...
We never presented at Black Hat USA in 2012, although we did do some very cool work in that year.
For this year's show we'll back on the podium with Behrang's talk, as well an entire suite of excellent training courses. To meet the likes of Behrang and the rest of our team please consider one of our courses. We need all the support we can get and we're pretty convinced you won't be disappointed.
See you in Vegas!
A cloud storage service such as Microsoft SkyDrive requires building data centers as well as operational and maintenance costs. An alternative approach is based on distributed computing model which utilizes portion of the storage and processing resources of consumer level computers and SME NAS devices to form a peer to peer storage system. The members contribute some of their local storage space to the system and in return receive "online backup and data sharing" service. Providing data confidentiality, integrity and availability in such de-centerlized storage system is a big challenge to be addressed. As the cost of data storage devices declines, there is a debate that whether the P2P storage could really be cost saving or not. I leave this debate to the critics and instead I will look into a peer to peer storage system and study its security measures and possible issues. An overview of this system's architecture is shown in the following picture:
Each node in the storage cloud receives an amount of free online storage space which can be increased by the control server if the node agrees to "contribute" some of its local hard drive space to the system. File synchronisation and contribution agents that are running on every node interact with the cloud control server and other nodes as shown in the above picture. Folder/File synchronisation is performed in the following steps:
1) The node authenticates itself to the control server and sends file upload request with file meta data including SHA1 hash value, size, number of fragments and file name over HTTPS connection.
2) The control server replies with the AES encryption key for the relevant file/folder, a [IP Address]:[Port number] list of contributing nodes called "endpoints list" and a file ID.
3) The file is split into blocks each of which is encrypted with the above AES encryption key. The blocks are further split into 64 fragments and redundancy information also gets added to them.
4) The node then connects to the contribution agent on each endpoint address that was received in step 2 and uploads one fragment to each of them
Since the system nodes are not under full control of the control server, they fall offline any time or the stored file fragments may become damaged/modified intentionally. As such, the control server needs to monitor node and fragment health regularly so that it may move lost/damaged fragments to alternate nodes if need be. For this purpose, the contribution agent on each node maintains an HTTPS connection to the control server on which it receives the following "tasks":
a) Adjust settings : instructs the node to modify its upload/download limits , contribution size and etc
b) Block check : asks the node to connect to another contribution node and verify a fragment existence and hash value
c) Block Recovery : Assist the control server to recover a number of fragments
By delegating the above task, the control system has placed some degree of "trust" or at least "assumptions" about the availability and integrity of the agent software running on the storage cloud nodes. However, those agents can be manipulated by malicious nodes in order to disrupt cloud operations, attack other nodes or even gain unauthorised access to the distributed data. I limited the scope of my research to the synchronisation and contribution agent software of two storage nodes under my control - one of which was acting as a contribution node. I didn't include the analysis of the encryption or redundancy of the system in my preliminary research because it could affect the live system and should only be performed on a test environment which was not possible to set up, as the target system's control server was not publicly available. Within the contribution agent alone, I identified that not only did I have unauthorised access file storage (and download) on the cloud's nodes, but I had unauthorised access to the folder encryption keys as well.
a) Unauthorised file storage and download
The contribution agent created a TCP network listener that processed commands from the control server as well as requests from other nodes. The agent communicated over HTTP(s) with the control server and other nodes in the cloud. An example file fragment upload request from a remote node is shown below:
Uploading fragments with similar format to the above path name resulted in the "bad request" error from the agent. This indicated that the fragment name should be related to its content and this condition is checked by the contribution agent before accepting the PUT request. By decompiling the agent software code, it was found that the fragment name must have the following format to pass this validation:
<SHA1(uploaded content)>.<Fragment number>.<Global Folder Id>
I used the above file fragment format to upload notepad.exe to the remote node successfully as you can see in the following figure:
The download request (GET request) was also successful regardless of the validity of "Global Folder Id" and "Fragment Number". The uploaded file was accessible for about 24 hours, until it was purged automatically by the contribution agent, probably because it won't receive any "Block Check" requests for the control server for this fragment. Twenty four hours still is enough time for malicious users to abuse storage cloud nodes bandwidth and storage to serve their contents over the internet without victim's knowledge.
b) Unauthorised access to folder encryption keys
The network listener responded to GET requests from any remote node as mentioned above. This was intended to serve "Block Check" commands from the control server which instructs a node to fetch a number of fragments from other nodes (referred to as "endpoints") and verify their integrity but re-calculating the SHA1 hash and reporting back to the control server. This could be part of the cloud "health check" process to ensure that the distributed file fragments are accessible and not tampered with. The agent could also process "File Recovery" tasks from the control server but I didn't observe any such command from the control server during the dynamic analysis of the contribution agent, so I searched the decompiled code for clues on the file recovery process and found the following code snippet which could suggest that the agent is cable of retrieving encryption keys from the control server. This was something odd, considering that each node should only have access to its own folders encryption keys and it stores encrypted file fragments of other nodes.
While peer to peer storage systems have lower setup/maintenance costs, they face security threats from the storage nodes that are not under direct physical/remote control of the cloud controller system. Examples of such threats relate to the cloud's client agent software and the cloud server's authorisation control, as demonstrated in this post. While analysis of the data encryption and redundancy in the peer to peer storage system would be an interesting future research topic, we hope that the findings from this research can be used to improve the security of various distributed storage systems.


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B & B Appliance Co is located at the address 24470 Lakeland Blvd in Euclid, Ohio 44132.
B & B Appliance Co has an annual sales volume of 5M – 9,999,999. .For more information contact Ed Ostrander, Vice President or go to www.bbappliance.com
B & B Appliance Co provides Satellite & Cable Services, Commercial Services, Residential Services to it's customers. For maps and directions to B & B...
B & B Appliance is a family owned Appliances, Electronics, Furniture, Bedding, Ranges, Refrigerators, Washers, Dryers, Freezers, Televisions, Phones, Mattresses store located in Euclid, OH. We offer the best in home Appliances, Electronics, Furniture, Bedding, Ranges, Refrigerators, Washers, Dryers, Freezers, Televisions, Phones, Mattresses at discount prices.017750ATTR:WASHERSAPPLIANCES...
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B&B Appliance is a locally owned and operated appliance and electronics store. We've been serving Northeast Ohio since 1924. We offer delivery and set-up, and can also refer you to a qualified installer for built-in appliances (dishwashers, wall ovens, etc) and home theater installation. Additional Address - Middleburg Hts,OH :6800 Pearl Road, PH 440-842-5600.
B&B Appliance is a locally owned and operated major appliance, television, and electronics retailer headquarted in Euclid, Ohio. We have been serving the Northern Ohio area since 1924.

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Our photo of the day was taken in Bruges, Belgium. It shows a boat tour heading down one of the city's canals. These tours are just one of the great things to do in Bruges.
If you're looking for somewhere to stay in Bruges, make sure to check out our great selection of hostels in Bruges. To learn more about some of the top attractions in Bruges, listen to our Bruges podcast and download our free Bruges pocket guide.
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Our new devotional "If God Loves Me, Why Did I Lose My Job?" explores the struggle of unemployment. Sign up here.
One of the most important figures in the OT. Moses was called by God to lead Israel out of captivity in Egypt through the Sinai wilderness to the brink of the promised land. He was the mediator of the old covenant, and in several major respects anticipates the person of Jesus Christ.


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Pender sheriff candidate's DWI case continued to after Election DaySubmitted by Sara Hopkins on Wed, 10/22/2014 - 3:46pm.READ MORE:
Pender County Sheriff candidate Scott Lawson was back in court on charges of DWI and reckless driving, but a judge continued the case until after Election Day. Full story...»
PENDER COUNTY: Incumbent sheriff wins primary while redistricting prompts changeSubmitted by Sarah Murphy on Wed, 05/07/2014 - 4:16am.READ MORE:
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Pender Co. sheriff candidate charged with DWISubmitted by WWAY on Mon, 04/07/2014 - 4:56pm.READ MORE:
A candidate for Pender County Sheriff faces some legal troubles of his own. Highway Patrol arrested Scott Lawson, 49, over the weekend for DWI and reckless driving. Full story...»


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Positions Available
Director of People, Finance and Operations
The Victorian AIDS Council is a world-leading Not-For-Profit organisation working together with our communities to deliver HIV prevention, education and health promotion to gay men, providing services, support and advocacy for all people living with HIV and support and promote the health and wellbeing of sexually and gender diverse communities.
VAC is seeking to recruit a Director of People, Finance and Operations. Reporting to the Chief Executive Officer this role will contribute significantly to the success of VAC in ending HIV.
The Director of People, Finance and Operations is integral in ensuring the efficient and effective operations of VAC as a whole. Key areas of responsibility include Finance; Business Development & Fundraising; Facilities; People & Culture; Workplace Health & Safety; Industrial Relations; Human Resource Administration; Information Technology; Administrative Services.
Success in this role requires a leader who combines exemplary people skills with a high degree of system focus; strong financial abilities; a future-oriented perspective; an in-depth understanding of contemporary approaches to human resource management; and the ability to motivate a team.
Click here to obtain a position description or contact Rowena Doo at firstname.lastname@example.com or ring 03 9865 6700
Applicants must address the key selection criteria within the position description.
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Santa Fe Springs News
Local news for Santa Fe Springs, CA continually updated from thousands of sources on the web.
Rio Hondo Community College District
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Beach Hazards Statement for Los Angeles County was issued at March 31 at 2:26PM PDT
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Gorden sinks 1st hole in one
Detroit Lakes head boys' golf coach Bob Gorden has seen plenty of success from his Laker teams after their back-to-back Class 2A state championships.
But last Wednesday, Gorden experienced a rare feat himself, when he sunk his first-ever hole in one on the Lakeview Golf Course's hole 17, a 131-yard shot by using a nine iron.
Joining Gorden late in his round was DL assistant boys' golf coach Vern Schnathorst, who was playing with his son, Tanner, and some of his friends.
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text: A Look Back At An Historic Daytona 500 [PHOTOS] By Danny Merrell February 21, 2011 2:52 PM Share on Facebook Share on Twitter This year's Daytona 500 had it all — a 10 year salute to Dale Earnhardt, a record number of lead changes and cautions, and the youngest winner ever. Filed Under: dale earnhardt, daytona 500, nascar, trevor bayne Category: Events, Photos Share on Facebook Share on Twitter More Leave a comment Send to a friend! Print this page Pin it! Reddit This! Share on Tumblr! Best of Kicks 105 Recommended For You Around the Web


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Discussion in 'Disney Cruise Line Forum' started by goeva, Jan 10, 2013.
Please edit and remove your image links.
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Hi Eva!!
Thank you so much for the designs!! They turned out great!!! Also thank you for making the Orioles Mickey head!!
I neglected to put the year with the may 2-6 dates would it be at all possible to have the year added to each? If not its ok ...my fault!
Thank you, Eva!!!
Hi Eva!!!
I was wondering if you care to make me one with Ellie and Carl with the names Kelly and Doug!! I love the design!! Thank you so much!!
Sent from my iPad using DISBoards
Good morning Eva!
Could you make me a Mickey head with the University of Louisville Cardinals in it?
If it's not asking too much... I'd like to make magnets for our family group cruise to surprise them all will amazing doors!
Mickey Head shape name in ear:
Reef-Lightening McQueen
Zen-Sorcerer Mickey
James & Jen,-Mr. & Mrs. Incrediable
Levi & Michi-Mickey & Minnie
Mark & Alison-Wall-e and Eve
Porthole Design:
Top saying "Bunnell Family 2014"
bottom saying "Disney Fantasy"
Fireworks in mickey head shape
Hope I did that right. Thank you so much.
Your work is great! We are going on a disney cruise on the disney dream to the Bahamas on September 26-29th 2013. I didn't know if I could get you to make us something saying that and our family name? Thanks so much!
Hi Eva,
Thank you for helping us make our cruises memorable. I'd like to make magnets for some special occasions in our DIS group.
This one please:
one for each couple with the following info:
Disney Fantasy
May 4 - 11, 2013
Here's the list:
Alan & Terry Celebrating 38 Years
Ben & Laura Celebrating Our First Year
Robert & Liana Celebrating 21 Years
Drew & Megan Celebrating Four Years
Russ & Tammie Celebrating 36 Years
Jeff & Laura Celebrating 26 Years
Jason & Astrid Celebrating Ten Years
Paul & Toni Celebrating 33 Years
Bill & Kristi Celebrating Our Anniversary
Patrick & Caryn Celebrating Ten Years
Jeff & Cheryl Celebrating 16 Years
I really love your work and am looking forward to sharing.
Thanks SO MUCH!
Hello Eva, I want to do some magnets for my FE on the Fantasy may 24-31, 2013 What design can you do for me? Thanks
Hi Eva,
Thank you so very much for the previous disigns - I've found some for the grandparents traveling with us. Would you mind to make the following for me?
We travel on the Magic on April 26, 2013.
For some reason I cannot paste links into my request. Please let me know if the information below is not enough. I apologize for the lack of links.
DCL Sailor Mickey Head - please put the name "Grandad" on it.
Red bow Minnie Head - please put the name "Granna" on it.
Thanks so much!!
Hi I'm not sure if you can help me I had requested this a few months ago and I don't remember from who, I am finally making our tee shirts and just this one out of my entire group says resolution too low to print ?? Can it please be redone so i could use it for a tee shirt?? Thanks so much The image is a life preserver mickey head with anchors on it with a rope around it and the name Shelby underneath i could email you the exact image but I can't figure out how to attach it here. Thank you again
These are awesome!! Can I get the following:
Can I get this one with Delaney on the ear?
Can I get this one with Dylan on the ear?
Can I get this with the number 57 and Jerry?
http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/K...y Heads/nurse_zps6b67d0e9.png.html?sort=3&o=6
Can I get this one with Patricia on it?
Can I get this one with Jamie on it?
Thank you!!!
You need to tell me which design and the information you would like on the design.
There is no Fantasy sailing on 5/24, 2013.
Do you mean 2014?
Did you enlarge the image before saving it to your computer?
I have life preserver mickey head but I don't remember if I made yours.
I made one for you anyway.
Separate names with a comma.


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A Book and a Chat with Linda Kovic-Skow
in Books
Linda Kovic-Skow is the author of "French Illusions" a memior that is full of adventure and romance. Having, in my youth had my share of romance in France this should be an interesting show... mes oui.
Looking forward to discussing this beautiful story with Linda
WAKING UP WITH LINDA MCSHAN with DORSAY DUJON OF MAKE MUSIC LA
in Motivation
WAKING UP WITH LINDA & Stephanie Haynes(Break Away From Expectations of Others)
in Motivation
Linda Crystal, Where Are They? & FREE Readings
in Spirituality
Join Us Wednesday March 4th, 2015, 6:30pm EST for Where Are They with Linda Crystal Forensic Astrologer and FREE READINGS For Blog Talk Followers & You Tube Subscribers.
Co-Host Terrye Lynn Newcomb running Chat, helping you with links, questions and show you how to become followers.
Missing Person Profile on Michelle Parker missing from Orlando, Florida back in November 2011, missing 3 years already.
News on Current Events.
1st Hour of show WHERE ARE THEY? with Linda Crystal
2nd Hour
Festival of Angels Radio with Host Linda West and Special Guest Linda Kingsbury
in Spirituality
The International Society of Angels is the only nonprofit organization that offers a one-stop resource center for anyone desiring to grow in their understanding of angels. We hope to promote and circulate relevant, timely angelic information in an era of reason and logic - a time when spirituality is often disregarded and forgotten. We are a community that earnestly believes angels are closer than you think.
The Festival of Angels Expo, in Portland Oregon, on April 18 & 19, 2015, will give you an exciting opportunity to purchase products and services while you participate in live demonstrations, food, fun and entertainment. There will be expert speakers sharing with you a variety of topics. A few of these experts will be interviewed so you can get to know them before the Festival. http://thefestivalofangels.com
Professional Herbalist and Clairvoyant Teacher, Dr. Linda Kingsbury joins us to share her herbal wisdom and spiritual insights. Linda enjoys a lifelong intuitive connection with the natural world. She earned a PhD in Holistic Nutrition to support her clients and students in a balanced way. These experiences led to creating Spirit Herb Elixirs for the Aura, Chakras, and Conscious Creation. With the support of the Plant Devas, Dr. Linda grows organic herbs and flowers and prepares them into tinctures and flower essences. She has spoken at Whole Life Expos and Health Fairs around the country and she will joyfully share her passion for the plant kingdom with you today. She teaches classes in Herbal Medicine and Spiritual Healing in the Northwest with her home base in Moscow, Idaho. Her hobbies of swimming with wild dolphins, exploring horse heart connection, writing earth wisdom songs, and ecstatic dance supports all her work. www.SpiritHerbs.com
WAKING UP WITH LINDA MCSHAN with Stephanie Haynes- Taking Off The Mask
in Motivation
WAKING UP WITH LINDA MCSHAN-HEALTH-IMAGE-CARE with S SMITH/MAZCIO.
in Motivation
Did Robert Durst Kill Susan Berman? Linda Crystal Forensic Astrology
Wednesday March 25, 2015 at 6:30pm EST on WHERE ARE THEY? DID ROBERT DURST KILL SUSAN BERMAN? Forensic Astrology has the answers! Join LINDA CRYSTAL, AMERICA'S #1 FORENSIC ASTROLOGIST!
Along with Co-Host Terrye Lynn Newcomb, a searcher in the Hailey Dunn case from Texas, running the chat room, answering your questions, giving you links and helping you become Followers.
Last week we did THE DURST MYSTERIES AND THE KATHLEEN DURST DISAPPEARANCE, THE STORY REGARDING ROBERT DURST IS NOT OVER!
Did Robert Durst use Kathy's medical books and cadaver information to dismember her and the others?
Kathleen Durst Disappearance, Linda Crystal Forensic Astrology
"The Jinx" is now playing on HBO, featuring Robert Durst the heir to the Seymour Durst Fortune. Years ago I did a profile on Kathleen Durst , Robert Durst's wife. I have the original notes and will be discussing her disappearance from 1982. Along with new approaches that I learned during the time period that Kathy has been missing like maps, locations, death and danger zones and the number of the day. WHAT HAPPENED TO KATHY DURST? What happened to Robert Durst's mother? Charts reveal these myasteries very clearly.
I will reveal the mystery behind Robert Durst and some of the things he said during the interviews with the producers of The Jinx. Why some of the things he said are so important.
I have also told you that souls recycle and come back to their families and I believe we may be seeing this in the McCormack Family as proof. Listen in and see what I am talking about Wednesday March 18, 2015 at 6:30pm EST. You will be fascinated in the information.
WAKING UP WITH LINDA MCSHAN with STEPHANIE HAYNES
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Can Your Dirty Car Cost You Your Job?
in Self Help
Can Your Dirty Car Cost You Your Job?
You forgot to wash your car on your way to a job interview. Could the appearance of your car determine whether you get the job or not?
Linda B James (LindaBJames.com) interviews noted expert and job search strategist Michelle Rinklan (RinklanResources.com). Linda and Michelle uncover the strategies needed to land a great job.
Join the LBJ CLUB and have access to other life-changing interviews.
Subscribe to Linda's Blog and read fun articles that can enhance your life.
Linda Crystal, Forensic Astrologist, Where Are They? & Free Readings
in Spirituality
Join us Wednesday February 25th, 2015 at 6:30pm EST for WHERE ARE THEY? with Linda Crystal.
Co-Host Terrye Lynn Newcomb running chat and helping you with links, questions and becoming Followers.
Tonight's cases are Jessica Lane Chambers, Richard Perone and Danielle Imba, Holly Bobo.
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Posts from Food Blogs
Food Blog Spotlight: Pen & Palate
Thanks to Instagram filters and powerful smartphone cameras, taking a great food photo doesn't require much time or effort — which is what makes the food blog Pen & Palate so special. Instead of relying on photographs, writers Lucy Madison and Tram Nguyen use hand-drawn illustrations to accompany their recipes and stories, creating an online space that feels like a respite from the frenzy of the digital world.
12 Important Kinds of Pumpkin Spice Latte Swag Found on Etsy
Making Apple Cider at Home with a Homemade Apple Press
A few people have asked me this fall about pressing their own apple cider and juice. This is a little more complicated than making, say, apple sauce — but if you have a bumper crop of apples and want to make cider yourself, this is how you do it, brought to you by Aimée of Simple Bites.
These Two-Ingredient Cheater Cake Pops Are Kind of Genius
Is This Not the Best Chicken You've Ever Seen? (Her Name Is Izzy-Belle.)
Readers Share Their Progress in The Kitchn Cure on Twitter & Instagram
The Kitchn Cure Fall 2013
For The Kitchn Cure this year we asked those who are participating to share their progress on social media using the #kitchncure hashtag. Here are some examples of the hard work you've all been putting into the assignments –– and if you haven't started yet, maybe this will inspire you!
5 Awesome Pinterest Boards All About Apples
When it's too cold, and it's still dark, Honeycrisp apples are the reason I get up in the morning. I'm sure some of you can relate. Oftentimes instead of making anything with apples (not just Honeycrisp) I get antsy and just eat it plain, but this fall I want to explore the apple's potential. These Pinterest boards have inspired me to step up my game.
How to Clean Your Kitchen, as Told by Dogs
The Kitchn Cure started yesterday -– 2 weeks, 10 assignments to help you get your kitchen clean and organized. If you haven't signed up for the Cure, or are worried that it might be too hard or take too much time, have no fear –– these dogs are here to hold your hand through the process. They know what's up.
8 Breaking Bad Desserts & Cocktails You Should Make for the Finale
This series finale of AMC's Breaking Bad is this Sunday – are you prepared to say goodbye? After what has arguably been the best season of the show, the series deserves to go out with a bang. Bakers and boozers alike have been inspired to cook some interesting things to celebrate. WARNING: There are a lot of blue pop rocks ahead.


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By Mariela Rosario | 10/22/2010 - 15:24
Eva Longoria Parker will be premiering a new documentary called Latinos Living the American Dream that she directed and produced today at the Grauman's Chinese Theater in Los Angeles.
The film, made in conjunction with the Pepsi Yo Sumo project, seeks to highlight the positive impact that Latinos have had in the United States. Check out an excerpt from the film below:
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According to Hollywood.com, Eva Longoria wasn't hurt when the car she was in collided with a Ford Taurus last night. Three hours after the accident Eva was at the T-Mobile launch party for the new sidekick phone and her publicist told Hollywood.com "She's fine."
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Taboo, of the Black Eyed Peas has recorded a song protesting Arizona's SB 1070 bill, scheduled to go into effect tomorrow, July 29th. He starts off the single, entitled "One Heart, One Beat" by spelling out the motivation behind the recording. "It takes one person to stand up for what he believes in," says Taboo. "I believe there's been an injustice in Arizona.
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It's hard to not look like a winner when wearing silver and gold on the red carpet. These two shimmering, eye-catching colors—which are so hot this season—make a bold statement that many of our favorite Latinas don't shy away from. See who sparkles and shines on our best-dressed list.
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Part of the fun of the Academy Awards is trying to guess what celebrities will wear on the red carpet—from the gowns to the gems. Can't wait until Sunday to get your fill of celeb style? We asked jeweler-to-the-stars Neil Lane—who has provided red carpet jewelry for everyone from Jennifer Lopez to Salma Hayek—to show us the pieces he would choose if he was dressing these Latina stars on Oscar night. Here are his picks...
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Continuously Tuneable, Quasi-Continuous-Wave Source for Ultraviolet Resonance Raman Spectroscopy
Volume 49, Number 2 (Feb. 1995) Page 247-252
Doig, Stephen J.; Prendergast, Franklyn G.
A continuously tuneable, quasi-continuous-wave (cw), ultraviolet source for resonance Raman spectroscopy has been developed. The third and fourth harmonics of a picosecond mode-locked titanium: sapphire laser were generated in nonlinear crystals. The pulses which resulted from these processes were spectrally narrow (10-15 cm-1) and had low peak powers (<1 kW), while the system as a whole provides high average powers. Fourth-harmonic wavelengths were generated from 208 to 230 nm with average powers from 15 to 40 mW, while the third harmonic ranged from 255 to 305 nm with over 90 mW of power. The UV light was well collimated and focused well, and the power was stable for hours. Resonance Raman spectra of tryptophan and phenylalanine were recorded to demonstrate the practical application of this system. Spectra with excellent signal-to-noise ratios were recorded in 6 min with no deleterious effects from nonlinear processes. The selective enhancement of tryptophan scattering in a 1:10 molar solution of tryptophan to phenylalanine makes clear the advantage of a continuously tuneable UV source. Elaboration of this system to the full tuning range of titanium: sapphire lasers will create a laser source suitable for resonance Raman spectroscopy throughout the ultraviolet region (205-400 nm).


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|26th January 2015, 03:21 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Strange Waveform
I have been building this amplifier over the last two years and once complete I will post details.
The amplifier is a digital controlled steeper attenuator based upon the design in AudioXpress by Robert Nee Dance.
After chronic power supply oscillations and many burnt chips the amplifier is based on the HA5002 buffer chip of which it uses 20! I have now got the amplifier and power supply and all the logic working but it is the attenuator that is giving the most headaches.
How can an R/2R attenuator which is nothing more than relay contacts and resistors give so much trouble you ask? Well at first I thought the resistors were the wrong type and generated some high capacitance or inductance but they are metal film Vishay components. I then decided that the veroboard was probably not a good layout but that is all I had access to so I ordered a ground-plane perforated board and used thin film SMDs that fit nicely between the pins of the relays to eliminate stray capacitance and I got exactly the same results.
The attenuator has an input resistance of 128Kohm and is controlled by an encoder and logic for a 128 step span.
When feeding the attenuator with say a 50KHz square wave bearing in mind the front end of this amplifier is an FET followed by an HA5002 buffer amp that is good for well over 1MHz bandwidth the square wave was turned into this horrible triangle wave.
So to completely make sure I'm not doing something wrong or expecting too much from a bunch of relays and resistors I setup the circuit below and got exactly the same results
This is just a function generator feeding two resistors and then connected to an an oscilloscope so as you can see I need help please.
IMG_20150125_221137 (1280x720).jpg
IMG_20150125_221229 (1280x720).jpg
Test 2.png
|27th January 2015, 06:23 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: USA
A 60K source impedance when loaded with any capacitance will roll off the HF as shown.
Candidates for the Darwin Award should not read this author.
|27th January 2015, 06:59 AM
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lyon, France
128k + 10pF scope probe = 100 kHz lowpass.
Results are normal. Your square wave looks like any other square wave that went through a low order lowpass, it has no overshoot, no ringing... it is perfectly fine.
What's the problem with 100kHz lowpass for audio ?
|27th January 2015, 11:48 AM
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Many thanks for the replies djk and peufeu. So I can understand this since most hifi components have nominal 50Kohm input impedance therefore you are telling me that this is normal? Does this not make ridicule of high slew rate amplifiers having great transient response?
I thought that by having a nominal input impedance of 128Kohm would be a good thing so it looks like I would be better off making the stepped attenuator to have a 10Kohm input impedance?
Some SACD players supposedly have an output frequency range upto 90KHz just because we cannot hear this frequency, being able to reproduce such high frequencies we miss a lot of harmonic beating which is why a live violin never sounds the same as a recording?
I can easily change the R/2R resistors to lower the input impedance to raise the frequency response is this my only route?
|27th January 2015, 01:34 PM
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Zagreb
Components have nominal (standard) input impedance of 50k but it is driven by a very low output impedance of the source. If you need to attenuate the signal, using the input impedance of the component as part of a resistive divider, then the attenuator must be in the input of the component to prevent capacitive loading by the interconnecting cable. However, the idea of using the input impedance of a component as a part of a two resistor attenuator is not a good one in the first place for several reasons, which we can discuss later in the thread. That being said, the answer to your question would be yes if this is done. Normally an attenuator will attempt to get the OUTPUT of the source to see a standard 50k resistance, but look like a lower resistance to the input, precisely to avoid bandwidth limiting.
10k is better in some respects but may be a heavyer load for the source (in particular tube circuits will be susceptible to this).
It is rather easy to make an attenuator that, loaded with a standard 50k input, will appear as a 50k load for any setting. However, it will also appear as a variable but rather low impedance as seen from the load, which will help HF response. If this is well constructed, it's really a non-issue.
THe standard range defined for SACD is 50kHz (-3dB) but the actual encoding is capable of usable dynamic range will into the 100s of kHz.
For starters your schematic is backwards, if it is intended to be a parallel attenuator. THe input and output re reversed and the variable resistor will short the output of the generator. Also, for a 50k MINIMUM input impedance, the 60k reisistor shoud be 50k, and once the set up is properly connected, you will find that the minimum attenuation is about 3dB (which may or may not be a problem), the maximum impedance seen by the scope is around 36k and the upper cut-off is some 300kHz for a 10pF load. HOWEVER, check what the actual capacitance of your scope probe is! It may be migger than that of your amp. Also, the upper cut-off increases with increasing attenuation, which is the hallmark of such an attenuator. Honestly I am not a fan of either series or parallel attenuators as they lump various problems into one end of the attenuation range. The whole fame about passive attenuators having a 'sweet spot' re sound quality is about changing of the effective impedances depending on attenuation setting, which then influences HF and sometimes LF response. There are other attenuator schemes which do not have that problem.
Now, you might want to decrease the series resistor (which offers less minimum attenuation and better HF response) but also presents a more difficult load to the source and results in a different attenuation curve (which should ideally be close to logarithmic - and with this type, 'close' begs for a definition).
THe 50k standard was defined for a potentiometer input attenuator, and for that type, the worst case impedance as seen by the amp is at 6dB attenuation, when the pot presents a divider with equal resistors in series and in parallel with the amp input, this would be 1/2 of the pot value. THe effective series resistance when the pot is driven by a low impedance source is then the pot resistance divided by 4, i.e. 12.5k. For reasonable input capacitances the HF cut-off is well into the 100s of kHz range and normally not an issue. THis standard was not just pulled out of a hat.
Last edited by ilimzn; 27th January 2015 at 01:59 PM.
|27th January 2015, 04:41 PM
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lyon, France
Since distortion of the input stage is not corrected by feedback, it is preferable to operate the input stage far away from clipping, where it is more linear.
So, a higher slew rate amplifier which is actually using only a small part of its slew rate for audio will distort less because it puts less strain on the input stage (all other things being equal, which is never the case ) ; but you could do the same with a low (but sufficient) slew rate amplifier having a very linear input stage, etc.
You don't need ridiculously high slew rate or high bandwidth amplifiers for audio. Simply, it is a characteristic of the amplifier that is correlated to its audio qualities, but not directly.
So, it is not stupid to put a lowpass on the input of a very fast amplifier, since this lowpass filter will :
- Not affect the audio signal (if the cutoff is high enough),
- Remove the HF noise picked up by cables (cellphones...)
- Remove the HF noise emitted by the source (for example I have a E-MU soundcard here, it emits lots of HF crap in the output, switching DC-DC residue, a healthy bit of DAC clock leaks through, really it is full of garbage). On such a source, adding a lowpass will reduce intermodulation distortion in the amplifier due to the HF crap, which tends to make it sound different.
|28th January 2015, 12:34 AM
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Thank you both peufeu and ilimzn for your extremely detailed replies!
This is exactly why I signed up to this great forum the wealth of knowledge and explanations are exceptional!
I think I may have misled you with my circuit diagram earlier the attached diagram is what this attenuator feeds courtesy of Robert Nee Dance article in Audio express "Willow FET". As you can see it is an FET front end with extremely high input impedance and a buffer chip.
Since the excellent answers caused me to research (I took the hint!) a bit more I have since discovered that his original design for the stepped attenuator was 12Kohms and I had simply overlooked this and gone with my heart so to speak with 128Kohms with the disastrous results as we have seen.
I'm going to do further tests with different resistor values and see which gives the best results and will report my findings.
"How about a nominal 50k input impedance as is the standard?
10k is better in some respects but may be a heavier load for the source (in particular tube circuits will be susceptible to this).
It is rather easy to make an attenuator that, loaded with a standard 50k input, will appear as a 50k load for any setting. However, it will also appear as a variable but rather low impedance as seen from the load, which will help HF response. If this is well constructed, it's really a non-issue."
This is an excellent suggestion and since this R/2R ladder uses mutiples of 2 and I have constructed using 16kOhm resistors then either 64K or 32K maybe my best bet.
Again many thanks I learn something every time I'm on this forum!Preramp input.png
|28th January 2015, 08:19 AM
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Germany
Input impedance of this circuit may not be quite as high as you think, as Miller effect means the effect of Crss and associated nonlinearity would increase by circuit gain. Cascoding the FET might be worth it. Seems worth looking at in simulation.
|28th January 2015, 10:50 AM
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Thanks sgrossklass the circuit works just fine and it has been my struggle with the change in the square wave that brought me to this question.
Doing DIY and measuring things and getting unexpected results has forced me to research this subject more deeply and has now given me an appreciation of how various elements in the audio chain can have an effect on the sound we hear.
This simple thread Impedance question [Archive] - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums I came across explains things very clearly.
ilimzn commented on the output of tubes and the above link also has helped me understand the loading effects input impedance works.
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