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Excuse me, it's you who first labeled me as a "hypocritical pro-CPC poster". You started it first, NOT me.
I am Chinese, so I wish China to be united, prosperous and strong. What's your problem with that?
It's true that the CCP has lots of short-comings. But from a macro perspective, it is leading China to the right direction. It is also a fact that the CCP has the dedication to work for the greater good of China and the Chinese, albeit still having lots of room for improvement.
China is getting stronger and more prosperous with each passing day, so I give CCP the credit where it's due.
There is a Chinese proverb "瑕不掩瑜" (The defects do not obscure the virtues). Some people like to see the glass as half-empty, while some like to see it as half-full. To me, I like to see it as half-full, well, mostly-full to be exact.
As for the Filipino maids issue, well, they didn't exactly break the law, they only abused of the loopholes of the law, at the expanse of HKers. I don't have the time and mood to explain to you about the whole story. But I can tell you that it will be solved because the National People's Congress in Beijing will definitely interpret the Basic Laws so that no Filipino maids will be allowed to get HK citizenships by abusing the loopholes.
As for the mainland pregnant women giving birth to their babies in HK, I would rather take a 100 of them than having 1 South Asian economic refugee coming in. Mainlanders will integrate into the HK mainstream society in a few short years, whereas those South Asian economic refugees and their children will hardly be.
As a matter of fact, I have been having the thought of kicking all those South Asian economic refugees out of HK, so that we can have more room and resources to help and accommodate our mainland compatriots.
It is really beyond ridiculous for HK to spend billions of dollars every year on those South Asians economic refugees and their offspring, when there are still hundreds of millions of poor people in China who need our help.
"I am Chinese, so I wish China to be united, prosperous and strong. What's your problem with that?
It's true that the CCP has lots of short-comings. But from a macro perspective, it is leading China to the right direction. It is also a fact that the CCP has the dedication to work for the greater good of China and the Chinese, albeit still having lots of room for improvement."
Well your attitude and those of Prof. Kong are making it worse. How do you expect reunification with Taiwan which is more difficult.
"As for the Filipino maids issue, well, they didn't exactly break the law, they only abused of the loopholes of the law, at the expanse of HKers. I don't have the time and mood to explain to you about the whole story. But I can tell you that it will be solved because the National People's Congress in Beijing will definitely interpret the Basic Laws so that no Filipino maids will be allowed to get HK citizenships by abusing the loopholes."
What loop hole? Are you a lawyer? I just say as of now the Filipino's have the law on their side, until the Court of Appeal rules otherwise or the NPC.
"As for the mainland pregnant women giving birth to their babies in HK, I would rather take a 100 of them than having 1 South Asian economic refugee coming in. Mainlanders will integrate into the HK mainstream society in a few short years, whereas those South Asian economic refugees and their children will hardly be.
As a matter of fact, I have been having the thought of kicking all those South Asian economic refugees out of HK, so that we can have more room and resources to help and accommodate our mainland compatriots."
That is your opinion, but you don't see many people in Hong Kong protesting about South Asian migrants. Unless you go out there and protest, people won't listen to you. Why don't people complain, because those South Asians are working, with most of their families living back in their home countries. As for those mainland Chinese, they give birth in Hong Kong, then their kid uses Hong Kong tax payer resources for a good 12-13 years, and they might not contribute to the HK tax base once they finish school. Over the 10-12 years they are in HK, it will cost the HK tax payer US$ 100,000, and their parents don't contribute a cent in HK taxes over those 10-12 years.
If I was a rational and want to help mainland compatriots. I would do what the Singaporeans do is poach brightest poor kids in China starting from 8-9 years old offer them scholarships, stipends, residency on the condition that they work in Hong Kong ten years after they graduate.
If you like those mainland Chinese so much why not write a letter to the Ming Po in Hong Kong saying you want to
1) Invalidate the Basic law
2) Open the flood gates to Mainlanders
Or better yet sponsor 100 mainlander to come work for you in Hong Kong. There is nothing that is stopping you from doing so.
As for Professor Kong, he is Professor of Chinese studies and the Chinese tax payer pays him to do research. If he does not like that job, well he can easily quit, and become a Talk show host like Rush Limbaugh, where his talents are better appreciated.
Ah, it's a waste of time debating with you here because apparently you don't know anything about what's happening in HK but pretend to be an expert. I am a HKer living in HK whereas you are a South Asian (?) residing in Indonesia. Do you think you will know better than I do?
Tell you a cruel fact here. South Asians have always been discriminated in HK. While a few of them are well-off and have successfully integrated into the HK society, vast majority of them are at the bottom of the society.
The mass influx of South Asian economic refugees in the past 5-10 years has made the situation much worse.
Because of language barrier (some of them can speak Cantonese but very few can read and write Chinese, so they are basically Chinese illiterate) and a very high school drop-out rate, they are often unemployable.
So, vast majority of them end-up living on welfares while many of them end-up conducting illicit activities like robbing, mugging, stealing, drug trafficking and joining gangs. The crime rate of the South Asian community in HK is extraordinarily high as you can read news about the crimes committed by them every 2-3 days.
Just a couple days ago a 15-year-old South Asian girl was dragged and raped by a 30-something-year-old South Asian man at an alley in Wanchai in the evening. HKers are often attacked by groups of 3-4 South Asian men (that happens every 1-2 days as reported on the news) and have their smart phones robbed. Those South Asian scxms not only attack HK men, but women and elderly as well.
The South Asian cultural tradition has made them eager for big families, thus increasing their needs for more welfares from the HK society. They have now accounted for 20-30% occupancy rate in several public housing estates (subsidized by HK taxpayers).
This growing South Asian threat has already become an undercurrent in HK. Various anti-South Asian comments can easily be found in the HK cyberspace.
Given the recent rise of tensions between HKers and mainlanders, maybe the Chinese and the HKSAR government will find it convenient to divert HKers anger towards the South Asian community. Who knows?
Disclaimer: I have nothing against South Asians in South Asia and other countries. I also have nothing against the South Asians who have successfully integrated and made positive contributions to the HK society. What I am against are the ones who have come en masse in the past 5-10 years to take advantage of HK, which unfortunately, account for vast majority of them.
First I am not South Asian? How many South Asians are there in Hong Kong? Until you give a figure I don't care whether you are from Hong Kong or the moon. According to the HK government there are 45,000 South Asians in Hong Kong. You could be descendant of Confucius himself, but that does not mean you can make up facts.
About 50% were born in Hong Kong, so I doubt they are recent arrivals.
How many Filipino/Indonesian maids are there? 300,000.
The fact is the largest number of people getting Hong Kong residency are not South Asians, but Indonesians. You might not like the Indians, but I don't see people protesting about them? That is your problem, you have no proof. No links. And you expect me to believe you.
Who are the ones who employs those people. Indian gangs? its the Triads. Who runs the Triads, Chinese people. If you kick out all the Indians/South Asians, don't think expect the Triads to disappear from Hong Kong. I can understand people's concern about maids getting residency etc. But you are a troll by focusing on a group that only makes up 40-50K people in Hong Kong, less than 1% of the population.
I haven't heard from anyone of that being a major problem. But how would I know, since all the Hong Kong media must be biased and anti-China.
Pacific Century:
Are you really HKer living In Hong Kong? There is no such group called "South Asian economic refugees" in Hong Kong as you mentioned. Those who flooded to the City in recent years, principally from Nepal and Pakistan, claimed political persecution at their home country when they arrived at the territory to seek political asylum.
But of course most came because they wanted to make some quick bucks. But after a HK court ruled that they cannot work in the territory, now they relied on the meager allowance from UNHCR.
And these refugees are not eligible to apply for public housing. Only HK permanent residents can be qualified to reside in the public housing estate.
Well, I met many Cantonese speaker in U.S. who also claim that they are from HK. But easily I can tell they are not since accent can't cheat.
"Well, I met many Cantonese speaker in U.S. who also claim that they are from HK. But easily I can tell they are not since accent can't cheat."
Alot of people do that, because its easy to explain non-Chinese. There are alot of Cantonese speakers from Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore etc. Sometimes its easier to say you are from Hong Kong, then say you are from Thailand.
As for the economic refugee argument. There are very few economic refugees of any sort in Hong Kong, residency requirements are strict. Yes alot of those people are asylum seekers waiting for their hearings. During that time they can't work, and often turn to crime. But the numbers are small, only a couple of thousand
Do we have to meet in person to prove that I am a genuine local HKer?
Yes, according to government figures, there are around 10,000 (?) economic refugees from South Asia and Africa (pretending to be asylum seekers) in HK. That number doesn't seem a lot.
But it is a fact that the number of South Asians has mushroomed in recent years as we can see them flooding in HK streets (it is eye-soaring to see them flirting with those 5-feet-at max Filipino maids, sigh!). I wonder who they are.
There is no way that they are expats or overseas professionals, and they do look like at all. So do they come to HK for family re-union reason or something? I had seen a South Asian couple (in their customs) in their 30s or 40s with 6(!!!) kids all younger than 10 a couple weeks ago! South Asian couples with 3-4 kids are common. They are no tourist but are here to stay for long!
Compounded with the surge in crimes committed by this group in recent years, they are a far more serious social problem for HK than the mainland prevents women will ever be. And they will alter HK's demography.
I am both sad and puzzled that while many "self-righteous" HKers are out denouncing our mainland peers, they seem to have overlooked the elephant in the room.
Since you are also a HKer, I would like to hear your opinion on that, thank you.
P.S. Got to go for meeting now. Will chat later.
I had asked the same question to a few "supposedly patriotic HKers" who are eager to protect the interests of HK by denouncing the influx of mainland pregnant women and some mainland tourists' sometimes unruly behaviors.
I had asked:
"Andao" at the WSJ China Real Time Report:
"Hong Kong gal" at the WSJ China Real Time Report:
"Pace Chan" at the WSJ:
"PatCraven", "Yamaha" and "cantokaraoke" at the Daily Telegraph:
But none of them bothered to reply to my question except for "cantokaraoke" who called me as a "50 Cent".
So it makes me wonder, are these "supposedly patriotic HKers" really HKers who care about HK? Or they are actually "foreigners" with malicious intentions trying to fan fires between HK and the mainland?
I am still awaiting your insightful opinion. Thanks again.
I don't care if you are South Asian or Southeast Asian or East Asian or a mix of them. I only know that English is not your first language and you are Chinese illiterate.
The census you quoted was made in 2006 and it only covered data of "legitimate residents", the ones staying in HK as "economic refugees" (so-called asylum seekers) and/or illegally was not accounted for. And it is now 2012.
I don't have a concrete figure, but South Asians are indeed flooding the streets of HK, as anyone with functioning eyes would have seen. There was a census conducted in HK last year, so a more updated data should be available soon.
I wouldn't be surprised if the number is far highly than 45K now. 150-200K or even higher is not impossible (i.e., legitimate and illegitimate ones combined).
All I said about the South Asian problems in HK are facts. If you don't believe me, you may verify with Ewakorn.
"I don't care if you are South Asian or Southeast Asian or East Asian or a mix of them. I only know that English is not your first language and you are Chinese illiterate.
The census you quoted was made in 2006 and it only covered data of "legitimate residents", the ones staying in HK as "economic refugees" (so-called asylum seekers) and/or illegally was not accounted for. And it is now 2012.
I don't have a concrete figure, but South Asians are indeed flooding the streets of HK, as anyone with functioning eyes would have seen. There was a census conducted in HK last year, so a more updated data should be available soon.
I wouldn't be surprised if the number is far highly than 45K now. 150-200K or even higher is not impossible (i.e., legitimate and illegitimate ones combined).
All I said about the South Asian problems in HK are facts. If you don't believe me, you may verify with Ewakorn."
As usual you insult people when you can't find the facts. You can make up the numbers. Let's put it at 1 Million or 2 Million, will that make you happy. There is a very easy solution to the whole situation of supposed illegals, bring back British colonial law, and have them all caned with a rattan cane like they do in Singapore. Too bad corporal punishment violates mainland Chinese Law. I guess the British were good for something after all.
Pacific Century:
I have no time to read all your posts in various blogs. Why do I object Mainland woman delivering baby in Hong Kong? Plain simple. Economically every Hong Kong taxpayer has to foot the bill.
Let's do a simple calculation.
The Mainlander couple now may have to pay as high as HK$200,000 to deliver in a private hospital. But what does the newborn get in return? A HKID which entitles him/her to almost free 12-yr education + 4-yr college which is heavily subsidized by HK government. Moreover, he/she is entitled to almost free medical care for his whole life. And he is eligible to public housing. When he turns 18, he can apply for his parents to go to HK and enjoy those benefits too.
I would say the total bill may come up to HK$6 million or more which is footed by every HKer (though most HKers don't pay income tax, they pay indirect tax via the high land price).
But I don't know these Mainlander couples who may come as far as Heilongjiang. So why should I let them share my benefits?
And apparently they are quite well-off being able to afford HK$200,000 for the delivery. If they can afford HK$200,000, probably they can afford to pay the fine even if this is their second child born in Mainland.
So their aim is to take advantage of you and me and other HKers. Why should I let them take advantage of me? Apparently you don't mind, but I mind a lot.
Moreover, such act may likely jeopardize HKer's interest. For example, U.S. may grant visa free access to HK passport holders. But with so many Mainlanders flooding into the territory to steal the citizenship, I guess the State Department may think twice.
It seems that the Economist has banned me from continue posting. I guess I must have posted too many "sensitive" comments here...
So you seem to be OK with the rapidly growing South Asian population in HK but are upset with our mainland peers.
Are we Chinese really that "外鬥外行, 內鬥內行" (Suck at fighting outsiders but good at infighting)?
If a mainland baby may bring a HKD 6M bill to HK taxpayers, how much do you think it would cost us HKers when the South Asians give birth to 3, 4, 5, or more babies?
We are all Chinese. Since HK is better off, do you think it is our responsibility to help the less advantaged in the mainland instead of feeding those South Asian the Outsiders?
Besides, HK has received enormous economic benefits due to the development of the mainland. So the cost of taking care of mainland babies is merely a small change.
Immigrants from the mainland can easily blend-in in a short time (including learning Cantonese). But those South Asians will hardly be able to integrate into the HK mainstream soceity. Even if those South Asians were born in HK, only some can speak Cantonese and a few are Chinese ilterate.
So do you think that the mushrooming South Asian community in HK is actually a far bigger threat and a ticking time bomb?
As a HKer I am sure you are aware that vast majority of South Asians are of the lower-class and are poorly educated, and their reliance and demand of social welfares are FAR GREATER than anyone else in HK. Not to mention the extremely high crime rate associated with this community which has wreaked harvoc to the HK society.
Do you agree that the South Asians, rather than our mainland peers, are actually THE NET DRAIN of HK resources?
Pacific Century:
I am afraid you have messed up with the composition of South Asians in Hong Kong. Principally there are three groups of South Asians in Hong Kong:
(1) Those South Asians who came into the territory as early as 1840s:
Principally they worked in the British bureaucracy and small business. Most of them are Sindhi and Sikhs (that is why you see a Sikh temple in Morrison Hill Road). Most of them got an authentic British passport (not BNO) before '97. That is the rich upper class. In fact, there are over 1,000 millionaires of Indian origin in Hong Kong.
(2) Those who you see bring all the women and kids into the territory:
Those usually came from Pakistan and Nepal. It used to be that in almost every bank you got a South Asian on guard -- they usually come from Pakistan. And because the Gurkha had been dissolved before '97, those Nepalese who used to station in the territory become residents in Hong Kong. Because in recent decade Nepal and Pakistan are politically unstable, so that is why these South Asians apply to bring their whole family over into Hong Kong.
(3) The Political Refugees that we have discussed before.
So principally you are talking about the 2nd group. But it can't be helped because they are permanent residents in Hong Kong and they have the right to bring their family member into the territory.
Pacific Century:
You wrote: "We are all Chinese. Since HK is better off, do you think it is our responsibility to help the less advantaged in the mainland instead of feeding those South Asian the Outsiders?"
You also wrote: "Besides, HK has received enormous economic benefits due to the development of the mainland. So the cost of taking care of mainland babies is merely a small change."
Basically there are four flaws in your paragraphs.
(1) The thought of one should help the other because you are better off is called "Communism" which is really outdated. Moreover, if they can afford to pay HK$200,000 to deliver their babies in Hong Kong, probably those couples are better off than either you or me. So why should we offer them help?
(2) The relationship of Hong Kong versus Mainland is mutually beneficial. Without Hong Kong, how could those hundreds of SOEs and private enterprises IPO and take home $hundreds of billions?
In '50s, '60s and '70s, HK used to be called "the Hen that can lay golden eggs" because whatever junk China exported at that time to HK, it could earn hard cash. But now China just print some papers in HK and exchange for money.
(3) May I remind you that you are encouraging Mainlanders to break the law in saying that Hong Kong should care for their babies. As everyone knows, China implements "One Child" policy. If HK takes care of these Mainland babies whom many are second child, isn't HK an accomplice in helping these Mainland citizens breaking Mainland's law?
Pacific Century,
Can we please stop with the South Asian straw man?
It makes you look foolish and undermines whatever legitimate argument you might have. As Ewakorn mentioned, the vast majority of South Asians are in Hong Kong legitimately (and many families were there before the majority of ethnically Chinese families). Moreover, they're not a large part of the population.
Hong Kong is part of China, but it doesn't mean all Hong Kong residents are ethnically Chinese, nor should this matter. Let's not fall into race baiting.
It's our responsibility to help fellow HKers. Mothers are laying in the corridor of hospitals waiting because Mainland mothers are taking up 1/2 of the beds. We do not have the resources to help Mainlanders. You think we should screw our own HKers to help those less advantaged mainlanders? You must be kidding me. I don't believe for a second that you are an HKer. From your style of English, "IF" you are actually currently in HK, you're at most a CBC/ABC working in HK..Your views obviously do not represent the majority of HKers and certain is putting Mainlander interest before HKers.
One last post on this topic.
I think Hong Kong should open its door to accomodate immigrants from China on the condition that if they are refused entry or repatriated, they will face starvation, death sentence or long term imprisonment.
For example, during the Great Leap Forward, a lot of HKers brought food to the border to rescue those starving Mainlanders who fled and sheltered them. During the Cultural Revolution, a lot of Mainlanders swam thru shark-infested water to Hong Kong. Many villagers in New Territories offered them helping hands. On the aftermath of Tiananmen Incident, HKers even organized volunteer squad into Mainland to help those students and labor leaders under warrant to flee to Hong Kong.
During those times, HK was even less well-off. But the consensus was that these Mainlanders were worth offered sheltering because if they were repatriated, they would starve, be executed or put in jail for 20+ years for non-criminal offenses.
But the circumstances of those Mainlander couples trying to deliver babies in Hong Kong are way different -- they merely aim to reap the benefits of being HKer without contributing anything to Hong Kong.
"Well, I met many Cantonese speaker in U.S. who also claim that they are from HK. But easily I can tell they are not since accent can't cheat."
Interesting, I have actually noticed a few difference. Hong Kong Cantonese feels softer, while Guangzhou Cantonese harder. In addition, it is always easy to tell when they are swearing.
Hong Kongers Sing "Locust World" Harassing Mainland Tourists
Kinda funny...
What the Peking University professor Kong Qingdong said might be a bit harsh, but his speech was nevertheless somehow true.
Please note that he said "MANY HKers are dogs", NOT "ALL HKers are dogs". And before saying so, he said "MANY HKers are good people", which is true and fair.
But when the mass media (whether it's the HK ones or foreign ones) reported this incident, they very often purposely omitted the word "MANY" and tried to give readers an impression that the speech was "HKers are dogs", which implied "ALL OF THEM". That's an intentional TWIST of FACTS!!!
Frankly, HK is never short of traitors and running dogs of the West (and Japan too)…SIGH
People like Jimmy Lai (黎智英, the owner of Apple Daily, Next Magazine and a couple other tabloids), Martin Lee (李柱銘), 陶傑(Chip Tsao), the Civic Party and various other pan-democrats are indeed notorious running dogs of the West. Some HKers are fond of the British colonial days and despise their Chinese identity, while some are fond of everything Japanese and despise everything Chinese. Calling these people dogs may not be totally appropriate, but it is not totally wrong either.
As these people may come into tens of thousands in HK, using "MANY" was not wrong, although I think the word "SOME" would have been more suitable and much less controversial.
How is that different from Sir. Donald Tsang and Jackie Chan with their KBE and MBE? Donald Tsang is Knight of British Empire, and not an honorary one either. I don't know who is more of a running of the West, Jimmy Lai, a former sweatshop worker, without a foreign title to his name, or Sir. Donald Tsang, Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire. Yet he became CE of Hong Kong.
British people have turned down such honors, for political reasons, why haven't Donald Tsang gave it back. Former colonial subjects when they became free gave these titles back. Jacky Chan and Donald Tsang should have done the same. But of course hypocritical pro-CPC posters like yourself will defend these people without batting an idea at the absurdity of the situation. The correct answer should be that they should relinquish those titles. Yet, I have seen pro-Chinese posters defend their actions. No matter what they say, on paper with those British Orders/titles they are British running dogs.
Its the CPC who likes dealing with traitors and running dogs. Their local sympathizers who protested against British rule, jailed, got no important positions in the HK government, instead it went to British lackeys like Donald Tsang. Why?
When I said "running dogs of the West", I meant those people and groups have been working for the interest of the West rather than that of the mainland China/HK. If you had any knowledge of what the people I named above had been doing, you would have known that their actions have always been AGAINST the interest of mainland China/HK.
For example, Jimmy Lai's press like the Apple Daily and the Next Magazine have always been a mouth piece of the West and an ardent anti-China voice (with often twisted, fabricated and exaggerated news reports to denigrate the mainland and mainlanders). His media has also been supporting the Filippino maids for HK citizenships but at the same time criticizing the influx of mainland pregant women and constantly exaggerating the sometimes unruly behaviors of some of the mainland tourists (the "Locust Ad" was published in the Apple Daily).
Both the mainlanders and HKers are Chinese. Yet Jimmy Lai's media has chosen to side with outsiders (foreigners) and denigrate his very own. If this is not a traitor behivior then I don't know what it is.
There are many other cases involving the people and groups I mentioned in my previous post but you need to know the context and background of the issues. If you are interested then I suggest you to learn Chinese so that you can read Chinese press instead of relying on the often second-handed, selected, and biased Western/English sources. I don't have the time and energy to explain every case and everything to you. I am sorry.
Donald Tsang has been a civil servant since 1967. He got his OBE and KBE when he was STIL SERVING THE BRITISH HK GOVERNMENT! As a recogination of his past achievements, I don't see any problem with keeping them.
Since the handover he has been dedicating himself for the betterment of the HKSAR and China, albeit not performing well in recent years, he has nevertheless been trying his best to run, promote and work for the best interest of the HKSAR. He is not working for the interest of Britian (since after the hand-over at least), so how can you twist the fact and say he is a British running dog?
Jackie Chan (in case you didn't know, he is an ethnic Manchu), as a civilian celebrity, has been working to promote HK for most of his life. He has also done numerous charity works in China (HK included) and abroad. He has always been a patriotic Chinese who has worked and defended for Chinese' (as a whole) best interests, not Britain's. He has not done anything to sell China out for British interests, so how can he be a British running dog?
You know, it's your habit to always pick on and exaggerate the trivials but neglect the bigger picture. You logic has always always TOO WIRED for any normal person to comprehend.
"Donald Tsang has been a civil servant since 1967. He got his OBE and KBE when he was STIL SERVING THE BRITISH HK GOVERNMENT! As a recogination of his past achievements, I don't see any problem with keeping them.
Since the handover he has been dedicating himself for the betterment of the HKSAR and China, albeit not performing well in recent years, he has nevertheless been trying his best to run, promote and work for the best interest of the HKSAR. He is not working for the interest of Britian (since after the hand-over at least), so how can you twist the fact and say he is a British running dog?
Jackie Chan (in case you didn't know, he is an ethnic Manchu), as a civilian celebrity, has been working to promote HK for most of his life. He has also done numerous charity works in China (HK included) and abroad. He has always been a patriotic Chinese who has worked and defended for Chinese' (as a whole) best interests, not Britain's. He has not done anything to sell China out for British interests, so how can he be a British running dog?
You know, it's your habit to always pick on and exaggerate the trivials but neglect the bigger picture. You logic has always always TOO WIRED for any normal person to comprehend."
I was being nice to you by focusing on the trivial. Again you launch into an attack. When you don't like something you accuse the person of being abnormal. You accuse me of not understanding things. Most of the posters here including many mainland Chinese posters don't read the local Hong Kong press in English / Chinese even if they could. I don't have to understand what Jimmy Lai has said to point out the hypocrisy of the accusations.
I don't have to make a strong case or understand much to point out hypocrisy. Its a very low standard. Its an argument used by many pro-CPC supporters here, point to the other guy and show he is a hypocrite. Why can't I do that also? All you provide is flimsy excuses.
Now I am not going to focus on the trivial. About Jimmy Lai and the maids. I assume you are a law abiding citizen in the PRC / Hong Kong or where ever you live. I just read one or two stories about the case. That fact is Jimmy Lai has the law on his side with regards to foreign maid case, so until the law is repealed how can something that supports a HK High Court ruling be declared unpatriotic. The maid pursuing the case have not broken the law, they have followed the law. That is all I need to know.
Secondly, as for mainland mothers going into Hong Kong to give birth they have broken Hong Kong law. There are restrictions / laws on pregnant women traveling to HK or other places to give birth.
Thus the HK government has decided to crackdown.
If you were a cop/judge your job is to uphold the law even if you don't like the said law. Many of those mainland mothers have broken the law in many ways. First by entering Hong Kong after certain months of pregnancy. Secondly, over staying when they are in Hong Kong.
If you don't like the law, why don't you and Professor Kong write and appeal to the National People's Congress in China to get the Hong Kong government to allow more mainland women in. Or better yet get the whole Basic Law revoked while you guys are at it, so you can arrest the likes of Jimmy Lai.
many of those that have emigrated to countries such as Australia still wag their tails to their colonial masters, how pathetic
Most HKers will not likely wish to offer permanent residency to either Filipino maids or Mainlander immigrants.
But behavior-wise, the Filipinos behave much better than the Mainlanders in Hong Kong.
For example, Filipinos try to speak HKer's language, Cantonese, on the other hand, Mainlanders try to force HKers to speak his language, i.e. Putonghua, and if the HKer speaks lousily, i.e. the HKer in the train brawl, the Mainlander will tease the HKer.
In the crowded street of Hong Kong, if the Filipino maid acidentally steps on your foot, most likely she will say "Sorry Sir" or "Sorry Madam", but in many cases the Mainlander will punch you even though it is his fault (that is why you see so many street fights in Mainland cities).
The Filipino maids occupy the park only on Sunday, but the Mainlanders occupy every corner of Hong Kong everyday.
Hardly any Filipinos spit or litter or defecate on the street, but many Mainlanders spit and litter and defecate on the street.
Who should be more welcomed to be a resident in the territory if there must be a choice between these two groups?
And after South China Morning Post surrenders to Beijing to hire a Mainlander as the editor-in-chief and after ATV has been completely under Mainlander's control, fortunately Hong Kong still has other voices like Apple Daily and Next Magazine.
Yes. Those are Yellow Journalism. But Yellow Journalism is still preferable to aa HK version of People's Daily or Global Times.
So he let the "Locust" ad published. But what about Mainland, CCP-owned internet TV let the vulgar dog-look Kong bark!
If Kong can insult HKers as "dogs", why can't Lai let those kids from Golden Forum post a "Locust" ad?
he said "MANY HKers are dogs", NOT "ALL HKers are dogs". And before saying so, he said "MANY HKers are good people"
In the UK, there is a standard joke where somebody begins a diatribe with the phrase "now I'm not a racist, but..."
Excuse me, there are many things wrong about Apple Daily, being a mouthpiece of the West isn't one of them. I for one am glad that it has the balls to criticize China and if that makes it a running dog, so be it. With all due respect you came off like one of those who 扣帽子 if you want I am saying.
Mainland China also has restrictions against eating, drinking, etc on the metros and buses, but nobody follows the rules. Same goes for the lovely neighbors who smoke in my elevator, despite an enormous "No Smoking" sign.
The dogs and locusts thing is really getting out of hand and is actually quite childish, but the cultural differences are real. Hong Kongers read signs and abide by social norms, while mainlanders read signs and ignore them totally. Go anywhere in China with a sign that says "please wait in line" and you'll see what I mean. But how can you change this rude behavior? Beats me.
HK people also used to behave in the same way you described, some 30 years ago, before they got prosperous and more people had a chance to travel outside of HK. It will take time for Chinese to buy into some of the West's better manners and culture and Beijing and Shanghai will lead the way.
u have an inferiority complex, u think western moon is more round
Yes it does look rounder and bigger from western California :)
The teenage girl in the video is demonstrating that the younger generation is not learning manners from their parents so we do have hope.
I think this cultural difference is not directly connected to prosperity and thus not as easy to change. I used to live in Hong Kong and now I live in Shenzhen. Shenzhen doesn't have the billionaires in Central or the world class universities, but I would say that the standard of living and level of education for the average people is comparable. But, still, just as Ghentis said, SZ people ignore the signs they read and the Hong Kong people follow them.
Things like smoking in elevators will change as people become more aware of the health problems; but I don't see Chinese people waiting in queues like docile englishmen any time soon.
BkP, actual experiences gave me the hope that culture can change with prosperity. When Beijing's new subway lines opened in 2008, I was pleasantly surprised that people did line up in front at the train door locations. That was already one up on the early days of HK MTR in the 80s when HK people weren't willing to line up and were jockeying for position. Of course the Beijing folks were still like the early HK folks and would not wait for alighting passengers before rushing onto the train. That day will come as you can see that it is now more orderly in HK. SZ will be worse as most people are migrants and don't have a sense of pride in a SZ identity.
Pride in your city will go a long way to getting rid of spitting, littering, and-worst of all- letting your children piss in public. But where's the pride in waiting in line like a bunch of sheep? I have sharp elbows. I feel more at home in a SZ metro than a HK one.
BkP, don't tell me you sharpen your elbow on your folks at home :)
Do you elbow your buddies when you get on the bus or the metro? The sense of pride in your city have to start with the sense of community. Without the sense of community you won't feel the obligation to keep the city clean for others to use. Hiking in the hills you may allow yourself to spit because you feel that you will not offend anyone or booby-trap someone, but you would refrain from spitting in the city.
China has been so big and messy that unfortunately for Chinese culture people grew up with a sense of exclusion, a trained ability to block things out. Hygienic behavior stops at the front door or at the walls of one's yard. I had been on the Chengdu MTR only a few times and I already saw one young mom lift her toddler on her knees prepping him to pee, right on the cabin floor. Luckily he didn't. And even in the U.S. in a Chinese restaurant I had seen a mom lifting her young daughter over a trash-bin because she didn't want her to wait for the stalls. I had the urge to go up to her to ask when she emigrated.
When I tagged along on a friend's drive to his home village, I was aghast that he would throw an empty coke can right in front of the gate of his village house. This was a village of poor but not dirt-poor cotton farmers who were probably making the median rural incomes. And this guy already had been upgrading himself to be able to buy a Toyota Highlander in Beijing. And I saw a shop-owner on a Huangshan tourist street threw out his cigarette butt right outside his shop (you see he was careful that it was one step out of his shop).
This ability to block things out when you are outside of your home does have its plus side. It fosters an "live and let live" attitude. You are probably well aware that across from the wealthiest Shouson Hills in Hong Kong Island there are the ugliest hillside slums. Only in HK! Can you imagine the rich in Beverly Hills tolerating such a site? They would have done everything in their powers to remove the eyesores if there were such a slum across from Beverly Hills.
I found that some "foreign netizens" have been working in full force in various HK internet forums (e.g. HK Discuss, HK Yahoo News and HK Golden) to fan fires and cause rifts between HK and the mainland by posting extremely insulting rants.
I noticed that whenever there's "bad-news" about the mainland, the number of comments quickly surge. But for other local HK news (either good or bad ones), the number of comments is much fewer.
This big contrast means that most posters are probably non-HKers, because they don't seem to care about what's going on in HK (i.e. if the mainland is not involved).
Here are two examples of my observation:
1) ONLY about 150 protesters in HK gathered in front of the LOCPG (中聯辦,Liaison Office of the Central People's Govt in HKSAR) to protest Peking University professor Kong Qingdong's speech before the Chinese New Year. While some of the radicals shouted insulting rants towards the mainland and mainlanders, their actions was disapproved by most who attended the rally. As the reported by the news, most said they were only against Professor Kong's speech but nothing else.
2) ONLY 7 dumbaxx youngsters took part in the "anti-locust" singing rally in Tsimshatsui and Mongkok earlier.
If the anti-mainland/mainlander force in HK was really that strong as indicated by the tens of thousands of radical and insulting comments in the HK cyberspace, how come there were so few showing up in real actions?
A possible answer is that these anti-mainland/mainlander comments have been highly manipulated. While is relative easy to flood the internet forums with tons of comments of all kinds, it is another story to mobile real people to participate in actions.
It is true that a couple hundred took part in "anti-mainland pregnant women" rallies, these people had their cause and they were not particularly anti-mainland/mainlanders at all.
In conclusion, the anti-mainland/mainlander sentiments in HK recently have been greatly exaggerated by "forces" with malicious intentions.
I am worried that these "forces" have found HK an easy target within China (given HK's openness and loose controls) to cause troubles and chaos, thus disrupting the development of China.
The Chinese central government and the HK government better be alert.
Peking duck has been masquarading as a Singaporean, he is a kwai low
I also find the forum in Mainland infiltrated by foreigners -- most likely dog barking Kong and his North Korean agents.
Otherwise how come they bragged that they would send 60,000 down to Hong Kong to eat and drink in the train but not even one shows up on the scheduled day?
You live in HK don't you? How come you are not aware of the fact that HKers are sick of tired of mainlander behaviours and the 40+k on facebooks protesting against Maindland free drive to HK and the Mainland mother taking over maternity ward issue. I think you are the only fake foreigner trying to downplay HKer's dissatisfaction with mainlanders. There are more people responding to anti-China posts on HKdiscuss and Golden because they see Mainlanders as the biggest issue and detriment to HK society. Recent protests are all about Mainlander issues not local oriented issues.
HKer are not stupid enough to waste their time singing to locust songs to Mainlanders. The ones who bothered to do it are stupid punks who had nothing better to do.
"he is a kwai low"
Isn't the word more commonly spelt as Gwei lau ?
The general perception of the Hong Kongers towards mainlanders mirrors how urban mainlanders perceive rural migrants in their cities. Lets hope that the mainland discussion of this issue helps weaken support for the institutionalized caste system in China (hukou).
But the hukou system keeps China's economy functional. (as HK's immigration barriers from the Mainland keeps HK functional)
Trying to develop all of China without a multi-tiered economy can only result in chaos. I know many Westerners like to object to the hukou system on ethical grounds, but obviously if you're Beijing you cannot lose pragmatism when the lives of 1.4 billion people are in your hands.
The hukou system must be slowly eliminated (as it is today) and moving too fast will only result in chaos.
And also the hukou system in China really isn't any different from America's borders with Mexico or EU's borders with Eastern Europe. China is too big and too underdeveloped to function as one economic entity right now, and so a multi-tiered system is an absolute necessity.
Most people acknowledge that the world should eventually eliminate all of its barriers according to libertarianism ideals, but you cannot do it all at once without causing chaos and creating a situation where everyone loses.
The term "locusts" refer to the hoards of mainland mothers who cross the border to give birth in order to get Hong Kong residency and all the associated welfare such as free health and education benefits. Hong Kong's are overstretched and local mothers are sleeping in camp beds in hospital corridors.
Over 40% of all Hong Kong babies last year were born to Mainland mothers in a situation where NEITHER parents were Hong Kong residents. These mainland mothers are allowed into Hong Kong to give birth if they have a "booking" at a private or public hospital. Most of the capacity of the private hospitals (which has expanded three or four fold on the past few years) has been allocated to these mainland mothers as they pay a hefty premium for private hospital births. Public Hospitals have suffered as staff have been lured by the private hospitals. There are also so called agencies which are essentially money grabbing middle men which have secured blocks of "confirmed bed spaces" whose service mainlanders can bid for at a huge premium.
As a result:
1) Many Hong Kong pregnant women cannot make a booking at their preferred private hospital even they try to do so as soon as their pregnancy is confirmed. Many of these have no choice and have to attend Public Hospitals where resources are already overstretched.
2) For mainlanders who cannot secure a booking at either a public or private hospital, they often try to get across the border, often at a late stage of pregnancy, and gain admission or even give birth in the Accident and Emergency Department.
3) Some agencies will provide full service: arranging fake papers, transport in MPVs to cross the border in the middle of the night, accommodation locally in illegal guest houses (another problem for Hong Kong!) until it's labour time and A&E can't turn the mother away when they present.
4) Although Hong Kong public hospitals charge a premium to these NEPs (non-eligible persons) but many of them simply leave hospital with their new born without paying, thus accounting for the bulk of the hospitals bad debts.
5) Hong Kong pregnant mothers (and their babies) do not get the level of service or quality of care they are entitled to, often spending hours on camp beds in labour in the corridor or being told to "hold on" as no mid-wife is available, especially since many of these mainlanders have fake papers, no prenatal records or blood tests. Medical staff also put themselves at risk as these mothers can be HIV or Hepatitis carriers. Neo-natal resources especially ICU, are also stretched to the limit, as mainland newborns from both private and public hospitals take up the limited space in the few units available.
To put things in perspective, Macau does not give residency rights to babies born to mainland mothers. In fact, in the mainland, if your residency is in province A, you can't get residency in a different province if you give birth there. So how come billions of mainlanders are theoretically able to get Hong Kong residency for their children simply by giving birth in Hong Kong? Post birth, Hong Kong government baby clinics are flooded with these mothers who cross the border for the day to take advantage of the free vaccination and other related services. Again, taxpayers are footing the bill. There is already an influx of these cross border children attending kindergarten and primary school in Hong Kong. There are special escort services which bring the children over from China on a daily basis. There is already a severe shortage of school places in Hong Kong suburbs near to the border and antagonism between the Hong Kong and mainland children.
It is the first time ever I have seen Hong Kong pregnant women out demonstrating in the rain, medical personnel speaking out against the ridiculous situation, midwives complaining of the anti social behaviour of these mainlanders and their relatives, and even ambulance drivers complaining they are being used like taxi service as mainlanders stopped at the border often fake labour at immigration.
It is not just a social problem. It is a matter of gross injustice, where people in Hong Kong feel they are being robbed of what they and their children should be entitled to, one of the best public health and education system which Hong Kongers have worked hard and paid for under British rule.
Hi Pat,
You still haven't replied to my comment posted at the Daily Telegraph yesterday.
Do you think that South Asians flooding into HK en masse is a far more serious social problem for HK?
Mainland maids?
"Shenzhen is hoping that the Hong Kong government will lift its ban on mainland maids after a caregiver recently was granted the first work permit for Hong Kong.
The Shenzhen association will lobby the Hong Kong government to permit mainland maids to enter the special administrative region's huge home services market. The sector is valued at more than HK$13 billion (US$167.3 million) annually and is so far dominated by Filipino and Indonesian workers.
The Hong Kong government's Central Policy Unit recently finished a feasibility study on allowing mainland maids but did not make immediate policy changes.
Hong Kong is suffering from a shortage of 100,000 domestic helpers and the gap is likely to continue to increase to 500,000 in five years with the graying of its population, the chamber said.
However, even if this proves to be true, people who worry about illegal immigration from the mainland and increases in extramarital affairs are still strongly opposed to a lifting of the ban on on mainland maids."
I sense a great deal of hypocrisy. Pre-1997, hordes and hordes of HK women flew to the United States (and other jus soli nations in the Western Hemisphere) to give birth to many anchor babies and ensure American jus soli citizenship their HK kids, who automatically qualify for American welfare benefits and entitlements, including financial aid and right of residence. Some of my peers have deliberately extorted financial aid (for college tuition) to get a free ride on the American taxpayer's dime.
Pre-1950, Hong Kong had liberal immigration policies, with no such restrictions. A lot of 'native' Hong Kongers forget that the majority of their ancestors arrived within the last century (that is, the 1900s). Hong Kong has a birth rate below replacement level (in fact, one of the world's lowest), so it's inevitable that immigration policies will have to be loosened if the country is to maintain a stable working-age population. The 1 country, 2 systems policy in Hong Kong expires in 2047. Like it or not, reunification is imminent imho.
I do feel sorry about the situation. But as far as I known, it perfectly legal for these woman from mainland Chian to have their babies in Hongkong. So if you got a problem about that, call your legislators. It's just so rude, shameful and disgusting to call others locusts, right?
Where do I single out the Shanghaiese?
I just poked fun with Gocanuck when he mentioned that Hong Kong will be replaced by Shanghai when a tsunami comes. Shanghai, especially Pudong, is made out of the alluvial sediment at the mouth of Yangtze. There are so many reports that the City is sinking due to the mass construction of numerous skyscrapers.
In fact, I wrote that both sides shouldn't call each "dog" and "locust". In U.S., that will constitute "Hate Speech". Both sides have misinterpreted freedom of speech.
@ewakorn - why singling out Shanghainese? Are you trying to put more gas on fire to divide the people in HK, in China and indeed in the world. Discrimination has been the most divisive and destructive force in scoieties as history would attest.
Well ewakorn suffers from the culture of American discrimination, in which America has a long history of discriminating against the Slaves, the freed Blacks, the Catholics, the Irish, the Italians, the Hispanics, the Japanese, the Chinese, the Muslims, and of course the Hispanics again.
If China wants to have a harmonious society, then China must resist this culture of American discrimination in any way possible.
I believe the Peking university professor denied making those remarks. In any case, the idea that Hong Kong people are "running dogs of the British" is a belly laugh. Anyone who knows the place understands that Hong Kong people resent and despise the British just as much as the mainland Chinese. The truth is that they don't like outsiders of any description. They don't even like each other very much. But that's just their way. They're not so bad once you get to know them
I was surprised when I watched the video because, contrary to my expectations, the Hong Kong man didn't seem unduly rude whereas the attitude of the mainland woman was notably snotty and arrogant. I think there were a lot of wounded feelings at play in inflaming this incident. If they hadn't laughed at his Mandarin, it would probably have blown over.
When I watched the video, I was quite surprised when the kid said that it is her fault for eating and spilling food in the train -- her mother put a finger on the lips to tell her kid to shut up.
Is that the way the parents in Mainland teach kids? How come it is so hard for them to admit wrongdoing?
I used not to sympathize with the plight of the minorities in China. But after watching the arrogance and rudeness of many Mainlanders in Hong Kong which is under international spotlight, now I understand why the minorities get pissed off.
Actually this professor clearly said on television that "they're dogs, not people"
This is not how you mend fences with a society that already resents what they see as forced and unsuccessful assimilation by invasion.
The way I look at it, is that in China there are different levels of unease. First you have non-Han minorities (ie Tibetans, Uighurs, Hui). Then you have the non-Mandarian speaking Han Chinese which Cantonese, Shanghainese, Hong Kongers fall in that category. Then you have Mandarin speaking Han Chinese. The first two groups there is a varying level of resentment of the first group. Hong Kong is only slightly different from Guangzhou, there are some Cantonese people in Guangzhou who used to refuse to take Taxi's driven by drivers who wouldn't speak Cantonese. The excuse was, they tend to get lost easily.
There definitely is more tension as Mandarin speakers move into places like Guangdong, Hong Kong, Fuijian, Tibet etc over the past 20 years and the heavy promotion of Mandarin by the Government. Mandarin was only made a national spoken language in the early 1980s. There is resentment, because in 1949, the policy was everybody should speak Mandarin, but speaking dialects/minority languages should not be punished. Basically what the CPC is doing npw is no different than what the KMT did in Taiwan in the past. The CPC up until the early 1990s had a related toward people speaking dialects.
The kid was the only adult on the subway, and is something all the people on the train can learn from, especially her Mother and the Professor Kong. Had the Mother took her child's advice it would not have become a national/international incident.
Its not that mainlanders are bad people, its the environment in which they grow up in. Admitting fault is less about losing face, but more about showing weakness. If you show weakness you are dead meat in China.
Actually the Cantonese and Minnanese speakers are the better lots because these dialects are "useful" for "United Front" (Communist jargon means wooing) purpose so they are still kept for interaction with HK and Taiwan.
Other dialects like those in Hunan and Jiangxi are completely ignored because they are completely "useless" under the eyes of Beijing. In fact, their plights are even worse than the minorities' languages.
If Mao were alive today, he would also be discriminated and classified as a "bastard". When he was a librarian in Peking University, hardly anybody understood what he spoke or bothered to listen to his Hunan dialect. So in fact he was very lonely. That is why he never even once visited Peking University after '49 because he was still mad about being discriminated in those years.
"I used not to sympathize with the plight of the minorities in China. But after watching the arrogance and rudeness of many Mainlanders in Hong Kong which is under international spotlight, now I understand why the minorities get pissed off."
I'm pleased to hear that...
Are you saying China is a "dog eat dog" society (forgetting about the locusts for the moment)?
There's all these filthy rich now who have no education/culture but money to throw away. And then you have all the others who aspire for the same for their children.
China's still a developing country, so it will need time to become a thoroughly civilized country like Japan (if it ever will).
China certainly has many faces and I'm looking forward to its remote monasteries and not the blind materialism in its cities.
Way back then I remember how Chinese materialism struck me when I first got to HK from South and South East Asia.
HK is not really different from the mainland. People there are just a few decades ahead, simply richer and better educated.
In that case, yes, I agree. I think he was reported to have said "running dogs of the British", which is not the same thing. But to call them "dogs" at all is most insulting.
As Bismarck wrote, the child was the only adult on the train! We start out okay and then...
Certainly there is more overt tension with mainlanders than there used to be. I don't think myself that it's a rejection of the Chinese national identity. It is really an issue of local resources. How do you think the people of Shanghai would react, for example, if migrant workers were suddenly allowed to use the public hospital resources and started coming there in droves to have babies because of Shanghai's superior medical services? I think we know the answer. Would this mean that the Shanghainese were rejecting their Chinese national identity? No.
Attitudes to mainland China and to Mandarin have changed radically since I first moved here 20 years ago. Say what you like about Hongkongers, the one thing they are is pragmatic. In the early 1990s, they looked down on mainlanders because they had no money. Mouh chihn mhou dak king. You never heard Mandarin spoken on the streets in those days. People who knew how to speak Mandarin kept quiet, because it wouldn't buy you anything except disrespect. Walk around Central today and you hear Mandarin being spoken everywhere. Walk into the expensive brand-name shops in the swankiest shopping malls and Mandarin is ALL you hear spoken. Sugar daddy now lives across the border. Come bearing gifts to Hong Kong and you will be greeted, if not with open arms then at least with a grudging acceptance. Come and try to TAKE something (like free medical services) and you will get a lot of blowback. Isn't the rest of the world just the same?
I read about that academic survey on national identity, but I think the reality is a little more nuanced. In my experience, most Hong Kong people have a conflicted attitude towards China. They are proud to be Chinese and proud of China, particularly when it comes to national achievements like the Olympics or the space programme. But they are very conscious of the realities of the political system in the mainland and the fact that they enjoy extra rights and freedoms. Basically, they have their eyes open.
"If Mao were alive today, he would also be discriminated and classified as a "bastard".
A better word would be "country bumpkin". Up until Jiang Zemin, almost all senior Chinese leaders had horrible Mandarin (Mao, Chiang Sr, Chiang Jr, Sun, Deng, Soong Ching-ling. Out of all these leaders, only Mao spoke "Mandarin" as his first language. For the others, Mandarin was a second / third dialect, even for Deng (remember he is Hakka). Its easier to find someone who didn't speak good Mandarin than to find someone who did in those. Even Jiang Zemin, had an accent when speaking Mandarin. Only the Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao have accent less Mandarin.
China is changing, the ability to speak well is more important than good calligraphy. In the old days, penmanship was for more important. If Mao was to start a revolution today, people would laugh.
If you were to look at the birthplace of Politburo members you will notice over the last fifty years it has shifted northward. In the 1950s, almost everyone was a Southerner because they were the ones who lead the revolution. Now Southerners make up only 15-20%. In part it has to do with emphasis of oral communication and oral exams for civil servants which puts Southerners at a disadvantage. You will most likely get the first Chinese American President of the USA before you see native Cantonese speaker as an anchor on CCTV.
you sounds as if the ccp is punishing everyone who doesn't speak mandarin, but the fact is that what ever you like teachers use any dialects or mandarin in teaching, it's just that more and more teachers can speak mandarin so they use it more and more, and the language books in mandarin and the Chinese dictionaries are in mandarin too of course....
I think perhaps you are just not a mandarin speakers, ask any mandarin speakers then they will tell you Mao and Deng were speaking Mandarin that's not perfect but understandable, and of course I don't know what they were speaking at home, I just have heard some of the audio so I think they were speaking mandarin, and where's this "Other dialects like those in Hunan and Jiangxi are completely ignored because they are completely "useless" under the eyes of Beijing." comes from?? and the rest of your post is just silly and over reacting.... and I though you are a very clam poster!!!!
hi, Biasmarck, I don't want to talk to ewakorn since he's so silly and crazy it seems, last time I was in HK, I actually saw some hkers drinking and a few foreign maids eating cookies in the mtr cars, and there were tons of food shops in the lobby of the mtr and there's not a post on war in the shops saying "not eating on cars", and I don't remember there's post in the car saying no eating in car too, and what do you expect from mainland tourists that don't know much about the rules of the HK, they buy food from the food shops in the lobby that's right outside the ticket checking entrance, do you really expect them to bring the food to eat in a toilet? there's no toilet in the mtr lobby, outside or inside the mtr stations!!!
You have to understand when people like Sun Yat Sen launched the revolutions, I don't think they imagined people punishing people for speaking dialects. The Manchu's never done that in 250 years. They are punishing students, here is an article from the most nationalist of publications.
Your second comment is true, the Hong Kong man was far more polite than the mainlanders were until they not only broke public rules, made a mess, AND on top of that, insulted him.
Your fist comment, I believe, is generally false (as generalities often are) (except for that one). I think Hong Kong Yan remain open to ideas and influence from other countries, cultures, governments and societies, as they have been in the past, and as all nations should be.
That was some years ago, they started putting posters up recently a year or couple of months ago.
Ewakorn does have some good points. Cantonese is given preferential treatment. Outside of Mandarin, Cantonese is the only dialect that has its own TV programming.
I think what was shocking was the response by the mother. Its disgraceful behavior. The daughter was correct. If the mother told her daughter "The nice gentlemen has reminded us to follow the rules for not eating on the train" End of story, and no national incident. Just because someone else does it, does not mean you have to also. I guess if someone else becomes prostitute its OK to tell our daughter to do the same.
I think the Hong Kong man was expecting that response. If the woman was you, I would expect the following. You would denounce him as a imperialist running dog, and say the proletariat can eat where he / she wants, and does not have to listen to Capitalist like him who exploit / suppress the freedom of the working man. You will make China and the CPC proud.
Before you insult anyone as "crazy and silly", please tell us why you give me such label first.
Did I cite any wrong facts? Did Mao ever visit Peking University even once after 1949?
Not even once.
Was Mao's horrible Mandarin with strong Hunan accent audible especially during his younger years when he was a Librarian at Beida?
According to the interview of the scholar Mr Fu (傅斯年) who was a leader of May Fourth Movement at Beida, Mao had approached him but practically he couldn't understand what Mao said.
Did I say anything wrong when I wrote that other than Cantonese and Minnanese, other dialects have a worse plight than Tibetan or Uyghur languages?
Cantonese at least have radio channel like Zhujiang network based in Guangzhou, is Hunanese dialect broadcasted in any radio or TV network?
For Tibetan, at least (even in pretense) there is radio or TV broadcasted in Tibetan language. But for those insignificant Southern dialects, Beijing doesn't even bother to pretend to show that it cares for its preservation.
I am not the one who use the label "bastard" for anyone who speaks less than perfect Mandarin. It is the so-called Confucius 73-rd generation descendant, Peking University professor Kong who labeled anyone that don't speak Mandarin or less than perfect Mandarin as "Bastard".
By the way, this Professor Kong belongs to a special species. After his sightseeing tour back from North Korea, he claimed that there has never been any famine in North Korea. When Kim Jong Il passed away, Kong openly mourned his death.
And the weirdest point is that he labeled any Chinese who badmouthed the Kim Dynasty as "Hanjian" (traitor of the Chinese nation).
With a professor like Kong and his kind in Peking University, no wonder the top High School graduates in Mainland shun Peking University and swarm to Hong Kong to attend college!
The tourists were riding on the original Canton-Kowloon Railway that was annexed by MTR several years ago. The lrailroad is the principal connecting route between Lowu (town opposite Shenzhen) and Kowloon peninsular. There is regular broadcast in Cantonese, Putonghua and English (in that sequence) warning passengers not to eat or drink. There is also sign (picture, Chinese[traditional script] and English) warning passengers not to eat or drink in every compartment.
Moreover, those Mainland tourists were on the way back home (which probably means this is not the first time they boarded train or subway in Hong Kong).
And if they really didn't notice the rules but was pointed out by that Hong Kong male in terrible Putonghua, why couldn't the mum just tell the kid stop eating and say sorry? Why did they tease the HK guy's Putonghua in return? Why did she only say "sorry" in English when the train personnel came to intervene?
The point about Professor Kong he must have some people very high up protecting him. He can say whatever he wants about the DPRK, that is his right. But he promotes violence toward specific individuals, hurls abuse and threatens violence toward reporters and students. Many Beida students have called for his dismissal. Here is a old report released in November
His assistant stabbed a reporter in 2009 for writing a article critical of the professor. The assistant was jailed for years.
Kong is professor of Chinese studies, with no particular area of interest. I really don't know how such an intellectual lightweight can get into Beijing. In America he would be lucky, even without the controversy, to get into a third tier state universities.
It shows how mainland Chinese have degenerated they would tolerate this type of behavior in a professor. Imagine what Confucius would say of having such an "descendent". Professors are usually media shy. The larger a country is the even more obscure their careers are.
Maybe I was being a little facetious. What I meant is that Hong Kong people can be quite brusque and abrasive on the outside, but this doesn't necessarily reflect what they are really like. I've met plenty of people who seemed almost comically rude on first encounter and turned out to have hearts of gold. I think it's the survivalist nature of Hong Kong society. Let's not forget that most people in Hong Kong came there as refugees or are the offspring of refugees. New York is similar.
Hong Kong is part of China, it was the british that invaded the Chinese territory
u can see those Hongkee in Melbourne, how disgusting, we the oversea Huaren know how to apply the green bamboo on them
those Hongkee who are corky are just having an inferiority complex
learn Mandarin
when Sun talked to Jiang Jieshi what's the language they used? It's probably not the Cantonese or the Shanghainese, it's probably the Mandarin, isn't it? They must have been too busy to care for the revolution than to have the time to think of other small things such as the national language.... and I still think the word "punishing" is just too strong, why the child feels being punishing? He doesn't need to learn a dialect so it's a saving time in school since he's to handle too many subjects.
Apart from Mr Fu surely there must have been others understand his mandarin, I don't think he was doing the revolution with friends only from his village.
now you are being silly, I didn't mean that's right to eating and drinking on the train, of course it's wrong, I mean the hkers are not that good like what some of the posters tell us here, and they are quite rude too, and i was in HK last time it's the summer of last year, I really don't remember there's obviously posters on the train warning, and guess what they post the adv on the newspapers called mainlanders locusts, and do you expect me to respect them and think they are more politer than us too?? no way!!! their lawmaker mr longhair throwing bananas to others and yes the hkers are good, what a joke!!
I don't really know. Have you heard Sun and Chiang's Mandarin, until you have I don't think it can be called effective communication. Often people use to write what they want to say like young people everywhere today use. If Sun and Chinag were born in China today, there would be no need for national language, since everyone just use their blackberry or phone to text to the other person setting in front of you.
Actually most of the revolutionaries / military leaders were from Hunan, if not from Hunan most of them were Southerners with mangled Mandarin like his. Southerners are much more tolerant of people with bad Mandarin, not like stuck Northerners like yourself.
You might not like to hear it. But Singaporeans don't like Mainlanders much either. So I don't know if its Hong Kong or a Mainland thing to be frank.
[ Bardamu February 3rd, 13:20
I believe the Peking university professor denied making those remarks. In any case, the idea that Hong Kong people are "running dogs of the British" is a belly laugh. Anyone who knows the place understands that Hong Kong people resent and despise the British just as much as the mainland Chinese.]
That is too general a statement. In fact, there are always factions. One pro-Beijing camp and one 聞屎人氏 camp at least. The latter look down on the former, and the mainlanders, just as their colonial masters look down on the 聞屎人氏 themselves.
[ The truth is that they don't like outsiders of any description. They don't even like each other very much. But that's just their way. They're not so bad once you get to know them]
With few exceptions, the HKers are known to be among the rudest people on earth. Still their maners are mild compared with those of Nordic Horshitmen.
[I was surprised when I watched the video because, contrary to my expectations, the Hong Kong man didn't seem unduly rude whereas the attitude of the mainland woman was notably snotty and arrogant. I think there were a lot of wounded feelings at play in inflaming this incident. If they hadn't laughed at his Mandarin, it would probably have blown over.]
大鄉里出城. The mainland woman is basically a peasant who got rich lately. What do you expect?
To Hong Kong people: If you need to shield pregnancy issue and limit mainland visitors , Election is coming for the legislature in a few years , vote for your judges and representatives to alter your much scolded immigration law and protect your interests.
To Mainland Chinese: If you do not want to tolerate high-nosed Hong Kong, lower your tax, get your laws tight and prepare for capital liberalization , then NOT to mention Shanghai, Shenzhen will become more attractive than Hong Kong.
But Now, you guys can not leave each other for investment destinations and markets(HK to China),shopping and financing(China to HK), respectively . So Stop finger-pointing and Go back and do your homework RIGHT NOW.
I agree wholeheartedly.
It's not that simple. Hong Kong's electoral system is based partially on geographical representation, and also on functional constituencies. FCs almost always vote entirely pro-Beijing, because they are all connected to specific industries and have no concern for cultural or social issues.
To cite a specific example, the Legco election in 2008 went like this:
Functional Constituencies (30 seats) Pro Beijing camp: 26; Pro-democracy camp: 4
Geographical seats (30 seats) Pro Beijing: 11; Pro democracy: 19
So if all 60 seats were based on geography alone, the Pro-Beijing parties would be crushed.
Ghentis, Appreciate your reminder and detailed statistics, That's why I like to engage in discussion at TE. As a matter of fact, What I mean is the general suffrage that is coming both in Legco and your city head. So even ordinary people will have a direct voice. But your pointed out nicely that your local tycoons are economically allied with Beijing.
The article "Dogs and Locusts" is missing not one, but two background elements; in addition to the issue of the spike in the amount of mainland mothers giving birth in Hong Kong in order to gain their children residency, it also doesn't mention the recent survey by professor Robert Chung at Hong Kong University whose results show that the amount of Hong Kong Yan that identify themselves as such rather than as Chinese Citizens has hit a twelve year low. http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=2012012715574912
if u don't think that u r Chinese citizens, emigrate, we don,t need the 4 legged rubbish
A factual mistake is that the girl was eating in a train, but not underground train. Although both prohibit passengers from eating.
Chinese people put great emphasis on family harmony as well as harmony between people.To tell the truth,this is just a trivial matter that doesnot need to be heped like that.Harmony counts.
It is a good well-balanced article except that it does not pinpoint the crux of the problem.
The crux of the problem is that tens of thousands of pregnant women from Mainland go to Hong Kong to give birth who in turn deprive the hospital beds and the medical care of the pregnant women in Hong Kong.
Moreover, thousands of these pregnant women cross the border at the last minute and gatecrash on the emergency wards of Hong Kong hospitals which is not allowed but Hong Kong is forced to take care of them on humanitarian ground.
That is the main cause of resentment in Hong Kong. I wonder how come the ET reporter did not mention one word about it while just elaborating on the symptom but not the cause.
No the main cause of tension is American propaganda interfering with Sino-HK relations...
Does HK have birthright citizenship/residency? If so, it's an interesting duplicate of cases in the United States, where Mexican pregnant mothers in cross-border cities like Ciudad Juarez/El Paso will often intentionally give birth in the United States so that their children are citizens and have access to US public services.
hi there, thanks,
in China this is not restricted to Hong Kong, or flamen aristocracy, ;
whereas in China it's happening in the whole regime system conspired by the pan rogue ruling bloc in China, and they even can 't wait to turn the society system into the same lewd being as the regime system in China.
They may not rape them in the normal meaning , but desire to keep a stable and frequent sex relations in a long term ( usually from several months to several years) ; The handsome are kept by them like their illegitimate concubines , usually with considerable compensation in money
The most evil nature of the ruling bloc in China is ,the slutty are oppressed, and made degenerate and extinct gradually by them ONLY for the malicious purpose mentioned-above , which is antihuman in nature.
Why would anybody WANT to be born in the US?
The US forces all of its citizens to pay federal income tax regardless of where they live and work, and places a 35% exit tax on all net assets if anyone wants to renounce citizenship.
Sad, and completely pathetic on America's part.
The situation is quite complicated in Hong Kong.
Before '97, only those born in Hong Kong were entitled to HK citizenship/residency. When Beijing drafted the mini-constitution for Hong Kong before the handover, somehow it is written that "anyone born to parents who are Chinese nationals in Hong Kong is entitled to residency in Hong Kong".
But very weirdly, the mini-constituion for Macau which was drafted more or less at the same time, stipulated that one of the parents must already have residency in Macau. So that is why hardly anybody from Mainland delivers in Macau because their newborn will not gain Macau residency.
In 2001, a HK-born kid whose both parents are Mainlanders but grandparents are HK residents, was extradited. His grandparents sued HK government up to HK's Supreme Court. And the HK judges ruled according to Common Law that the kid is entitled to be a HK resident.
In 2001, the verdict was not a big deal since only about 500 babies with parents of both Mainlanders were born in Hong Kong.
But last year it ballooned to 40,000 -- almost half of the babies born in HK in the whole year.
Now the National People's Congress in Beijing said that when they drafted the mini-consitution, their ORIGINAL INTENT was that only the newborn whose parent is HK resident is entitled to the residency.
So the pro-Beijing legislators in HK propose to have the mini-constitution interpreted by Beijing. But the pro-democracy legislators oppose the idea and ask for amendment of the mini-constituion which Beijing dreads.
In the meantime, both Shenzhen and HK governments do nothing -- if they have the will -- both sides can stop at least the majority of pregnant women who come across the border to deliver without reservation and gatecrash at the emergency wards.
With the stalemate, ethnic hatred has perpetuated between the two groups. In fact, I believe there is a conspiracy theory behind all these plots.
Yes, according to the current judicial ruling by our highest court -- the Court of Final Appeal -- interpretation of the Basic Law (HK's constitution) any person of Chinese descent born into Hong Kong obtains Hong Kong permanent residency.
And that is the real crux of the issue. Mainland mothers attempt to come into HK when they are 9 months pregnant, crash into the ER at the last moment, and hopefully that their child gets HK residency -- entitling them to 15 years free education, free health care, welfare, and public housing, etc.
Therefore, what Hongkongers want is to amend the HK Basic Law so that either parents have to be HK residents in order for their children to obtain HK residency. However, the problem is that an amendment of the Basic Law needs to be passed by HK's legislature, but also by Beijing.
You said that.Someone who was born in HK can get citizenship there.So some people from mainland China choose to give birth in HK.
I would think that the Chinese women giving birth in Hong Kong issue is only one of the symptoms. The other main issue is indeed that "rich mainland shoppers" are overwhelming services in Hong Kong. In shopping (tourist) districts, service in shops for Cantonese speakers has declined; or so the general Hong Konger complaint goes.
But I agree that the elaboration on the symptom is the main problem, and a significant one, in this article. I'd say that the Chinese professor video and the MTR video were the most internationally visible ones, so that's why the writer focused on that.
it's that the hk government haven't do enough to stop the pregnant women from mainland, and of course the central government will ok if the people in hk asked for help, it's always like that isn't it, as a mainlander I feel hurt I feel quite insulted if being called insect, the HKers are just crazy too!!!
That is ridiculous.
I was trollin, mostly to piss of ewakorn
Now Chinese pregnant woman are organizing to flood the US emergency room just like they they do to HONG KONG. Posing as tourist and they have guides to show them the best route. The Chinese newspaper today says the middlemen only charge 120,000 yuan that include all the accommodation and hospital stay. I don't know how that is enough without insurance. May be US taxpayer can foot the bill.
Good, well-balanced article. The situation simply reflects basic human psychology. People naturally feel unbalanced if a former disdained underling suddenly becomes their boss. While the feeling is understandable, it is utterly unwise to publicly show your contempt of the new boss. Remember the "country bumpkins" of the north have already saved Hong Kong from three major crises (1997, 2003, 2008) in only 14 years.
You wrote: "Remember the "country bumpkins" of the north have already saved Hong Kong from three major crises (1997, 2003, 2008) in only 14 years.
Factually incorrect.
In 1997, it was the Hong Kong government itself that spent $billions to intervene in the stock and foreign exchange markets to tackle the Hedge Funds.
In 2003, SARS erupted in Hong Kong but the origin was from China. Hong Kong would not have SARS at all if those travelers from Mainland didn't carry virus into the territory.
In 2008, HK's stock market would not have gone up to an irrational exuberant level if Beijing officials didn't talk about "Hong Kong Stock Direct Train" -- literally meaning capital from Mainland can be invested directly in Hong Kong market. But it has never happened even as of today.
On the other hand, since early 1990s, hundreds of Mainland SOEs and private firms, have IPOed in Hong Kong and took home hundreds of billions dollars. In fact, under the current credit crunch, Hong Kong's stock market becomes the only venue for those private enterprises from Mainland to acquire cheap money.
I would not categorically generalize all 1.3 billion Chinese as "country bumpkins". Many Shanghaiese I know are very elegant and refined.
People in HK need to choose a balanced point inwardly.You said it.
People from Mainland also need to choose a balanced point outwardly.
for example, people from Mainland traveling to Hong Kong should understand that Hong Kong is a completely different society socially, culturally and politically. People speak different languages, people write in different scripts, cars go in different directions, laws and rules are different,......etc. The problem is that when they come to the territory, they think that it is just another Mainland Chinese city and behave the same old way.
They should have some basic knowledge of the City before they embark on the journey. And they should behave the same way as locals do and don't behave as if they are immune from the laws and rules.
It is necessary to do as the Hongkongers do in HK.People from mainland need to get some knowledge about HK rules.However,some people do ignore this.
As a civil society,HK and its people need to tolerate the some behaviors that are not much acceptable.Will we just rebuke and even show discrimination when something went wrong?I am afraid not.
A civil society lies to everyone's actions.
save thyselves,hongkee if all else fail emigrate, u can still wag your tails to the colonial masters in Australia & New Zealand, we the oversea Huaren know how to apply the green bamboo on the tail wagers
Another knucklehead who got all the facts upside down.
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Dec 8, 2012 6:45 PM by Monica Gouty
Southbound I-25 is currently blocked between Baptist Rd. and North Gate due to a crash between a semi truck and an SUV. State Patrol says the accident is blocking both lanes. Traffic is very backed up in the area.
3 months ago