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Vitamix Pro 750 or Blendtec Designer Series?
So my Osterizer blender I inherited from mom finally gave out Sunday blending sausage,onions,and garlic for my Chili base. Cosmetically the old blender is shot and it started smoking before it completely stopped working. It has no sentimental value so the garbage man has taken it way.
After some quick research I am looking at the following.
Vitamix Pro 750 $550*
New model is now 17.25" tall and can fit under standard cabinets.Quiter and has some presets.
Made in Ohio. But motor is Swiss?
Blendtec Designer Series $435
Same basic design put prettier shell and has optional top now for scraping stuff off the side of blender and speciality jar for grains.
Assembled and designed in Utah but no longer qualifies for Made in USA label because content has fallen below 70% American. Motor is Chinese?
Some other interesting but less likely options for me.
Costco has the Vitamix 5200s for $379.
Blendtec Classic for $350. Has been available at Costco demonstrations for $299 in the recent past.
Then there is the Ninja 1500 Mega Kitchen System with 1500 watt motor similar to above and lots of extras included. Available direct from Ninja for $187 including shipping and CA sales tax with coupon code 4REGISTER. Obviously made in China.
Ninja is a new company. Vitamix has been making blenders since 1937 with stellar reputation. Blendtec has been making blenders since 1975(?) with reputation for blending Ipads,Iphones,and permanent markers.
What say you?
* Prices based on quick internet search on google, roboshopper,craigslist and ebay.
After a similar blender-death last summer, I wound up buying a Vitamix 5200 from Costco. (Costco has them in the warehouses.) I can recommend the 5200. I could mix cement with it. It seems epecially capable. I make a soup from fresh spinach and frozen petit-pois peas (plus some chicken stock, curry, and other ingredients). With my preevious blenders, I had to filter the puree through a fine-mesh seive to get a smooth soup. Not so with the with Vitamix. A very durable and capable machine that comes with a seven year no-questions-asked warranty.
In September, Cooks Illustrated published its latest blender ratings. It gave highest marks to ability and durablity to the Vitamix 5200 but thught a substantially less expensive Breville was almost as good. They are waiting to find out about durability. (CI used to recommened the KitchenAid blenders but those apparently have difficulties with durability.)
Chowhound has several long-running threads about Vitamix blenders. I believe that there is a current thread about whether to get Vitamix 750 models instead of the Vitamix 5200 models.
I believe that there is a chowhound thread comparing and contrasting various Blendtec and Vitamix models. I do not recall if there was any more of a consensus that both are excellent machines.
At one point, both CI and CR downrated the Blendtecs for noise and inconvenience, whatever that may mean. CI's Sept. 2012 blender tests did not include a Blendtec, whatever that may mean.
I have no direct experience with the Blendtec beyond watching demos at Costco. My personal take was that the Blendtecs had shorter blending pitchers, were a bit louder than the Vitamix 5200, but very heavy duty and capable machines.
I have a couple of friends in town who own/run restaurants where they have Vitamix 750 or older, similar versions. They run them constantly and praise them as durable and capable. The told me that a 750 would be overkill for home cooks and that a 5200 would be more than sufficient. One of them has a Vitamix that is 20 years old and still is going strong.
Consumer Reports apparently thinks pretty highly of some of the Ninja models. I have three friends who bought Ninjas. Two say that the Ninjas are the best blender they have ever owned. One said that until hers blended itself to pieces after 14 months of making smoothies and margaritas. She now has a Vitamix 5200 from Costco.
Cotsco has the VItamix in the stores but sells both Vitamix and Blendtecs from Costco online. Most reviews are postive. (As they ought to be for $400 blenders.)
Numbers of posters on Chowhound have mentioned that both Vitamix and Blendtec sell seconds and returns ar large discounts.
I just went through this very same decision. After talking to several friends who have a Vitamix 5200, and are very happy, I bought that one from Costco. A couple of my friends are excellent cooks, one a professional. They all seemed to think that the 5200 will do anything a home cook needs to do. So far, I have been happy, although I haven't had it very long and haven't put it through many tests!
Thanks for all the comments.
I don't understand the comment that a 750 may be overkill for home cooks.
The 750 has .2 more horsepower and the blades are 1" longer than a 5200 but runs at 11k rpm less. Blade speed at the blade's tips is 240 mph for both. They both have the same capacity.
The reason a home cook would want that blade/motor setup is for lower noise. You would think restaurants would not care.
The 5200 is 20.5" tall whereas the 750 is 17.25" so it fits neatly under a cabinet. The 5200 needs to be put on a countertop under a standard wall cabinet in two pieces. That,to me,looks like clutter. I don't want to put it away in the pantry or some cabinet because I use it quite regularly.
At first I did not like the idea of presets. Sounds Miele Master Chefy. But after reading those Chowhound threads the 750 has a tension sensor to adjust,for example,when making a smoothie between a hard fruit or vegetable and soft. Or ice. So it all comes out to a nice consistency. That would seem difficult to do by sight and adjusting manually. The wash preset varies speed to create turbulence to better wash the blender jar.If you want the 750 without presets you get the 7500. I know. The nomenclature is confusing.
Lastly the 750 just plain looks better.I don't think the 750 can do more. Just do it with less noise,less calculation by me,and look better doing it.
I am pretty sure I would take the 750 over the 5200. The bigger question,for me at least, is it better than the Blendtec Designer Series?
I was also thinking if the Ninja was 90% as good as the VM and last at least a third as long that might be a more rational way to go. Starting to solidify my thinking that buying an appliance from a relatively new company selling Chinese product is not the rational way to go. Even if it is not as big an investment as a range.
DH and I attended three or four demos while trying to decide between the 750 and 5200 (to replace our old unit). We also talked to several other Vitamix owners at these demos. None of us noticed any appreciable difference in quietness with the 750 and the balance of the container was more awkward for pouring. The 5200 actually did a better job of mixing in all the demos we saw.
As for looks, that is a matter of personal preference - I prefer the red of my 5200 to the stainless steel of the 750 ;-)
I love my vitamix! In fact, we are practically designing our whole kitchen around it (dedicated counter height roll-out cabinet), under counter ice machine, drawer fridge/freezer just for smoothie stuff. I love it!! Can't comment on the others, but VItamix has GREAT customer service. My motor blew and I brought it to the HQ (I live in Ohio) and they replaced it while I waited.
Glad the chowhound posts helped shed some light. As for the "overkill" comment, I'm not sure I know what they meant, either, now that you mention it. Might have been only a price thing, with the 5200 going for $380 and the 750 costing around for $650.
Our local Costco is selling a Ninja "system," but I think it might be the "1200" rather than the "1500" system. IIRC, it was about 1/3 the price of the VM5200. The chowhound threads had some discussion of the longevity of Ninja products but Ninjas just have not been around long enough to establish much of a track record.
Your comment about Chinese products brings to mind the problem of crapshoot quality control. Until you've been able to actually put the product to use, it can be very hard to find out if the thing you are buying is one of the very-well built "made in China" products (iPhones, etc.) or if you are getting the kind of product that makes you glad you bought it from Costco because of the great return policy, or something in-between. While that range from Costco is a keeper, I've had a couple of other recent kitchen purchases -- a buffet warmer/server and a meat grinder --- that were. . . well, let's just say that they were grist for the stereotype mill. That recent experience was in my mind when I went to Costco for a new blender and found myself looking at Ninja "System" side-by-side with the Vitamix 5200 on the shelves. Next to them was a KitchenAid blender (probably sourced from China, too) which Cooks Illustrated was listing as a best buy but which turned out to lack durability.
Sorry that I do not have any more light to shed on the Blendtecs.
On the subject of kitchen clutter, I have my Vitamix 5200 in a base cabinet where I can store it and several other taller appliances without having to dissassemble them. To have it on a countertop, beneath wall cabinets, you pretty much have to remove the cap for it to fit. The base and jar are 18" high, without the cap. The cap adds another 2.5" and is a bulky thing that will be clutter if stored separately. You've also got the tamper to store, as well, so potentially more clutter, there.
I have had my Blendtec for over 8 years. I recently purchased an additional jar. It is much quieter than my old one. However, I haven't noticed a difference between the noise of mine and similar Vitamix blenders. I also like that the Blendtec fits under my cabintets. The Vitamix won't do that.
I don't think roughly half of non-vitamix owners would consider the 5200 better looking.
I think the vast majority would consider the 750 better looking and you can get it in Red. Well,at least "Ruby"
I can see why longtime Vitamix ownwers would not like any of the changes in the 750 the same way many long time Porsche 911 owners don't like changes to their beloved sports car. It works and they have grown sentimental about the product. The faults become loveable quirks. The same way a guy married to an average looking woman for 20+ years thinks she is beautiful.
Going to stop buy Bed Bath & Beyond tonight and do some measuring on the mixers. And see what is what with regard to placement and storage.
I have a Vitamix 5200 in blue that has dedicated counter space. We use it at least 5 days a week for just about everything. Lots of smoothies, soups, salsas and the list could go on. I think Vitamix is a cult just like owning a Big Green Egg. :-) I wouldn't be without either.
Doesn't matter which Vitamix you get, you'll be happy no matter what. I will throw out that QVC sells the 5200 at a discounted rate about twice a year. It's a pretty good deal.
deeageaux-It almost sounds as if your mind is made up already (you are very protective of the 750). We splurged and bought this in SS from W-S in the summer. I just checked and it says 'Made in the USA' on it (but it sure feels like a Swiss or German product). It is a tremendous appliance and we all love the presets, especially the cleaning one. There have been several frantic mornings where I don't have time to clean and put it away (after our morning smoothies) so it's lovely to be able to add hot water and a drop of detergent, select the clean setting, press start and then dash out the door. (You know mornings, every minute counts).
It does fit under our 18" countertops but note I push the base back first, under the countertops, then angle the top piece forward, then set on the base and bring back to a vertical position. Said differently, due to the chairrail on the front of our uppers, I can't simply slide the unit back. Good luck with whatever you select!
@deeageaux: I know you are looking between vitamix and blendtec but Breville has their new blenders that go head to head with these two favourite... i have not used it myself yet so cannot comment but i have heard they are a very good alternative to the Vitamix.
Die-Cast Hemisphere� Blender - 800BLXL
the Hemisphere� Control - BBL605XL
Breville is the one the the Sept. 2012 issue of Cook's Illustrated installed as their latest "best buy" because they thought it performed almost as well as the VM5200 in their tests and cost about 1/3 as much. The article (linked previously) says they are continuing testing to determine durability of the Breville.
AFAIK, Breville products are "engineered" in Australia for manufacture in China. For deeagaux, that may put them in the same undesirable category as that range he mentioned a few posts back (i.e., one designed and engineered in California using US, Austrian, and Australian components for assembly in China with Chinese fabricated stainless steel).
As for the Vitamix motors, I believe that they are made in Sweden rather than Switzerland. I've seen postings that say various things about Blendtec motors being sourced from elsewhere, or using screws from elsewhere. Blendtec says they make everything in Utah.
I would hardly consider myself protective, lol. I actually dragged my husband to the demos with every intention of buying the 750, based on everything I had read, but the 5200 just performed that bit better.
However as others have said, you will be perfectly happy with whichever model of Vitamix you get - they are great little appliances.
I have not made up my mind yet on the 750 vis-a-vis the Blendtec but pretty sure I want it rather than the other VM models.
Breville 800BLXL is $268 or at least that is the best price I can find. Think I would rather take Blendtec Classic or VM 5200s over that.
I've read W-S and Amazon reviews from time to time and have read one or two complaints about the newer, shorter Vitamix pitcher--that it spills while pouring. I haven't used a VM since college. My retro Waring with its glass pitcher gets heavy use during the summers, grinds ice beautifully, and is used daily for about three months of the year. It is five years old. However, I do not drink green smoothies or grind grains. If I ever do pop for a mega blender, it will be a VM, just for nostalgia and cache. Just being honest.
Costco also sells a 6300 model during demonstrations. It is a Pro Series 500 labeled for Costco. Has 3 presets, same size jar as the 5200. We are loving it.
Went through 3 Kitchenaids in 16 years; we make lots of smoothies and the motors burn out. Jars will leak eventually and are not cheap to replace. My fav about the model we bought is the presets. If it was just me, I probably would not use them, but the kids can make smoothies using the buttons and the machine shuts off when they are done.
I'm not really concerned about height as I don't like keeping stuff out on counters. I limit that to microwave, toaster, and coffee maker.
I don't drink green smoothies at home because I don't have the ability to do it. I won't do it everyday. But if I can replace an eggs'n bacon type breakfast one a week I think I am ahead of the game.I will make jamba juice type smoothies much more often:)
Home made nut butters are coming. Blending harder sauseges like Spanish Chorizo are in the offing as well as grinding some grains and home made humus. I can't find a butcher that will grind prime chuck. Says large commercial machine will turn five lbs into nothing.
I don't have a countertop MW(drawer MW)nor a countertop toaster(stovetop),nor coffee maker(stovetop). Different horses for different courses.
KA stand mixer and VM/BT blender. The KA is as much kitchen sculpture as small appliance in my book.
Hummus may be a dish where the 750 does a better job than the 5200. See Williams Sonoma vid below.
Here is a link that might be useful: VM Hummus Video
>>>"Blending harder sausages like Spanish Chorizo are in the offing as well as grinding some grains and home made humus. I can't find a butcher that will grind prime chuck."Are you: (a) blending pre-made sausages into a recipe; or (b) blending meat for making your own sausages? If blending meat and spices to make sausages, I'd be concerned about the fat being blended so fine or getting so hot that the meat mixture "breaks." (Many sausages are basically emulsions and will get a grainy texture if the fat is blended out or separates. Dry sausages need a different technique that, AFAIK, would not be obtainable by chopping in a blender.) I think you will find that blending by using your KA mixer with the "paddle" beater would be a much better choice for mixing sausage meats.
As for grinding prime chuck, I would expect a Vitamix would turn it into pate. For things like burgers, meatlof, etc., I'd suggest a grinder attachment for the KA mixer (its about $50). A friend has one and it is fine for those uses. A food processor can work for chopping meat, although it requires a lot of vigilance to avoid going from from ground to pate. Also, from my experience with a Cuisinart, I'd say you want to work with relatively small quantities of meat at a time. When I started working with five and ten pound quantities after I started making sausages last year, I found a separate grinder worked far better and gave much better texture for burgers and such.
I have not tried grinding grain in my Vitamix 5200. Although some dry grinding can be done in the standard "wet" container that comes with the VM 5200, the company recommends using their "dry" container (a shorter container with a different blade assembly) for dry grinding "harder" grains. "Harder" grains include wheat berries, corn, and rye berries. (I have not had occasion to try any grain grinding in my VM5200 because my KA mixer came with a grain grinder when I bought it 15 years ago and that gives me the flours I want.) If you are considering grinding grains, I believe that there are numbers of how-to video on You-Tube which could shed some light on both the VM and Blendtec models.
As for hummus, I've only made it once with my VM5200. The instructions said to use the tamper plus I added some olive oil and the result seemed satisfactory to my guests. Apparently, one of the differences between the VM5200 and the VM750 is that the the latter seems to make hummus without needing any help from the tamper.
This post was edited by JWVideo on Sun, Dec 23, 12 at 14:57
I am talking about grinding pre-made sausages in blender for recipes.
VM claims 750 replaces mixer and grinder among other small appliances. That it can make chunky style salsa not just a Mexican style tomato puree for example.
Will try in blender first to grind meat if not satisfactory will buy a KA attachment. Do you have the KA one or one of the "better" metal non-KA branded ones?
Not a lot of Blendtec fans selling me on the Designer Series?
>>>"Do you have the KA one or one of the "better" metal non-KA branded ones?I have neither. One friend has an older (ten-year-old) version of the KA branded one which I tried out when I was considering getting a powered grinder. She she can put most parts in the dishwasher. However. the DW is not good for the blade, plate and auger, which may rust. That KA unit was far better than the hand-cranked grinders I had used previously, notwithstanding it being rather small --- it uses #5 blades and plates. Grinding a full five pounds of chuck can take a while. If you put the unit in the freezer for half an hour before you use it for a bigger job, it can go through a grind or two of the five pounds of meat pretty well. Cook's illustrated thought the KA was a pretty good unit and recommended it for those with KA mixers. It was also recommended in Michael Ruhlman's book, Charcuterie. However, his web site expressed reservations about the build quality as of last year when he got a new one. Apparently, KA had a bad run of the units. Ruhlman withdrew his recommendation in a blog on the web site. Our local BB&B stopped carrying them for a while, too. Supposedly, KA fixed the problems and I see it is now back on the shelves at BB&B.
Another friend recently bought a non-branded Czech-made metal unit (which I think was about $150 from Chef's Catalog.) It is entirely hand wash -- and dry --- only. The times I have used it, it seemed to work as well as the Waring stand-alone grinder that another friend recently bought at Costco for $100.
I wound up buying an LEM grinder. That was because of the volumes of meat and game I have been working with and because some other friends now have me grind meat for them. Its a classic case of being the guy on the block with the power tools. :=)
>>>"Not a lot of Blendtec fans selling me on the Designer Series?"Well, apparently not here. There are plenty of them elsewhere on the web. The guy who runs the company has a series of amusing videos where he blends things like a pitcher-full of old cell phones.
This post was edited by JWVideo on Mon, Dec 24, 12 at 13:26
Another happy Costco-vitamix purchaser here (with little time for chatting).
Very happy with mine.
I agree with all I read above and have little add except to the numerator of happiness. ;)
A couple points though: the deals available through the cc warehouse and online at cc and via vitamix directly can be considerably different. What is offered through the warehouse is usually via a "roadshow", at least in socal, and these are private vendors' actions. One misrepresented their product to me and when I informed the manager, well, I was reminded of Trevor's words once discussing the "tearing of a new one". It was clear this was an individual forced to deal with a separate entity that he wasn't wanting to at all. And the offering of that private vendor were different, again, from the cc online site (at that time).
As well, know that if you're interested in additional accessories than are available with whatever package you happen to buy, and you buy these through the VM Customer Reps -- who are very helpful IME, BTW - there is a certain amount of time after the purchase, regardless of from whom, that the accessories are something like half price. So, for example, I wanted a dry-blend carafe that wasn't present in my package (though I have since seen them sold through cc in different packages, so YMMV) -- one rep quoted me a certain cost and then when I went to buy it, the next rep said it was -50% b/c I had just purchased the blender. There was a time limit I forget.
vis-a-vis hummous and sticky sticky stuff (pesto, etc) - I think their specially-shaped hard-plastic spatulas are surprisingly helpful. I called peeved that it wasn't quite the miracle device claimed when I just couldn't remove the sticky glop at the bottom of the pitcher because the blades wouldn't come out. They sent me these spatulas and they were surprisingly affective. They sell them but they were kind enough to send them to me for free since I was peeved about the functionality of the blender at that point.
There is a slight learning curve to it all. I've had one for 9 months or so now? I absolutely do love it. And I've bought a couple blenders over the years at much lower cost but by the time it became necessary to replace them 3 times ... VM would have been cheaper.
I agree about blending cement. It would be my go-to appliance for this. ;)
As for comparison with blendtec, can't say from personal experience. But there is a yahoo group with this question chewed through ad nauseum. I ignore it. I think bottom line is they're both very good and unless you have a clear set of requirements not addressed by one type, you'll be fine with either. There is overlap on parameters between models. That is, some blendtecs may be quieter than some VM; and vice-versa. Some easier to clean -- and vice versa. So I don't think you can across-the-board say one is better than another for any given issue. But if one matters a lot to you, then check that the model you have in mind for the brand you have in mind actually does a good job at that particular thing.
Just so you know, and it is only on this forum I'd have the temerity to claim this, but I think the VM has been a real life-changer in our household. It's a different world crushing ice and fruit cores and skin all up together in seconds, effortlessly. Amazing.
If you can afford one of these machines, or if it is a slight stretch, I would urge you to make that reach. It's a great piece of equipment in your kitchen arsenal. =0.02.
Thank you all for this fall 2012 discussion.
Another penitent consumer ready to shove out the big bucks after too many failed attempts. Just checking to see what else might be new as of Spring, 2013.
Will the VM machines - any or all, the Blendtecs, and Brevilles - will they pulverize and emulsify fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds? The green drinks, pulp and all, along with turning ice to snow is my #1 priority.
Here are my failures:
Ninjas - the mobile, engine on top: probably was the most effective, but not convenient as I think I wasn't willing to retrain my brain on how I wanted a blender to work.
Ninja stand model w 2 size pitchers. Wide mouth short pitcher only good for soft items; big pitcher just wasn't emulsifying to the degree I hoped. Too many seeds and other items remained whole.
Magic Bullet - I will ALWAYS keep this on my counter as I use it for salad dressing, chopping herbs, spices; making soft fruit smoothies (frozen fruit and ice are great). For small quantities, oh my...happy happy happy, and I use it daily, but, impractical for the green drinks due to size.
Nutra bullet - thought I found nirvana being MB's big sister. Hoped it would do what the big buck models do, but tons easier / faster to clean. So sad that my first 5 or so tries did not emulsify AND leaked - and leaked regardless of amount and type of contents. I may have a defective model, but not willing to spend $ - or time - to figure this out.
Kitchen Aid - had one for years that sat unused as I thought it was fairly useless, a model that's about 10 years old now, so this is no reflection on today's models, but I have no interest in trying again.
Anything new to consider?
Thanks all
>>>"Will the VM machines - any or all, the Blendtecs, and Brevilles - will they pulverize and emulsify fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds? The green drinks, pulp and all, along with turning ice to snow is my #1 priority. "VM machines are indeed supposed to do that. Cooks Illustrated's recent (Sept. 2012) blender testing included smoothies made with kale and frozen pineapple, items notable for being fibrous and stringy. High marks for "little or no pulp."
As I stated above, I make a soup with garden peas and spinach and the VM 5200 produces a velvety smooth puree that I do not have to sieve before serving, just as VM claims.
Cooks Illustrated found that the Breville was not quite as good as the VM5200 for the kale & frozen pineapple smoothies. Apparently, a bit more pulp and stringy bits than with the VM although significantly better than the other blenders tested. OTOH, CI thought that the Breville wa a bit more adept at emulsifying hummus than the VM.
CI did not include a Blendtec model in the tests and I have no first hand knowledge of it. As you doubtless discovered from using the search engine, hardly anybody at GW seems to have Blendtec, so there is practically no info on it here. Try searching at Chowhound as I recall several long discussions there which included Blendtecs.
Thanks JWV. Based on this thread, and a # of video reviews I've been watching, from home consumers to CI, this seems to be what I'm hearing:
- Vitamix 500 and 700 series will do what I want. Just a matter of me sorting out costs and other differences of preference
- Breville - still no word on motor longevity, and yes, lots of demos suggest Vitamix may still (slightly) out perform on the nuts, seeds, fiberous/stringy, frozen item emulsion tests
- Blendtecs - just seems to be outperformed by the above machines
Thanks much!
Love my Blendtec...and at least I don't need a 'stick' to tamp food down with as I saw with the Vitamix (if that's still required). When I bought the Blendtec a year ago, the necessity of that stick is what sealed my decision to forget about the Vitamix. I haven't regretted that decision.
You need to use the tamper on the VM as often as you need a spatula or the Twister jar on the Blendtec.
That is why Blendtec now markets the twister jar (with spatula) .
You need it when there is not enough liquid and creates air pockets. I did not use my tamper this morning.
AnnaA wrote: "- Blendtecs - just seems to be outperformed by the above machines [i.e., VM and Breville]"
Are you perhaps referring to Cook's Illustrated's September 2009 blender shoot-out in which a Blendtec Total Blender fared poorly?
Those results did not seem to match what I saw in watching the Blendtec demos at Costco --- my only first hand experience with them, btw. As far as I could see, the Blendtecs seemed fully as capable as the VM units for anything they cared to demo. Karenlee and numbers of Chowhound posters seem to have very different user experiences than what turned up in the CI testing. Maybe CI's Blendtec Total unit was a lemon or a maybe it was bad design that has been replaced or updated? Or maybe there was some user error? Don't know.
To me, Blendtec and VitaMix just seem to go about things a little differently. Kind of Mac and PC thing, as near as I could tell.
As far as I could tell, the Blendtecs' wider and squatter jar design and its blade configuration are supposed to create a stronger downward vortex so that a tamper may be less helpful than with the VM's narrower jars. Most of the user posts that I've read elsewhere (e.g., Chowhound) seemed to bear that up. Still, I've seen folks touting aftermarket tampers for Blendtecs, so some Blendtec owners must like them for some things. (Probably stuff that folks would not have thought of blending until they got a very heavy duty unit.)
[EDITED TO ADD: Deeagueax posted while I was writing this, and I think that confirms my point.]
FWIW, I have found the VM tamper is not "necessary" or "required" for the blending I've done, but it can be helpful in speeding up blending of some larger or thicker thicker items. Say, making a smoothie with larger chunks of still frozen fruit. It just helps get things done faster in the taller, relatively narrower jar of the VM machines. We're talking the kinds of blending/mixing jobs where one otherwise miight be stopping a blender to scrape down the sides.
Now, according to the manuals and the promotional DVD that came with my VM 5200, the tamper does seem to be recommended by VM for particularly chunky or thick things like kale and chard smoothies and nut butters.
This post was edited by JWVideo on Fri, Mar 15, 13 at 18:07
After reading Chowhound and looking at professional comparisons (CI), I trust these top machines discussed here are all good. But given my own regrets over past purchases, and my #1 drive to emulsify whole foods as mentioned above, I was won over by consumer YouTube side by side demos that suggested the Vitamix handles that issue a bit more consistently. So I went with the V750 today.
Gave it a test run making a kale based smoothy with all the tough add ins - nuts and seeds. Smooth and silky! Made a carrot ginger (unstrained) juice - crisp, light, and no bits. And then made a roasted vegetable and lentil purée soup - fun watching it handle the hot stuff. I have some ingredients for a vegan ice cream freezing right now for tomorrow's new experiment.
The idea of a tamper was an initial turn off / concern. But I caught on to what it was doing, and am now very impressed and grateful I don't have to take off the lid and scrape.
Still choking a bit on the price, but I'm hoping this is the last blender I will ever buy!
Thanks everyone!
I'm hunting the recesses of my refrig to throw everything I've got at this machine. Not disappointed yet! Made vegan ice cream today. Headed out to buy peanuts to make pbutter later.
The preprogrammed settings are fun - especially the cleaning cycle. Turns it into a mini washing machine.
I think I'm a happy camper.
Jump in A2 :-)
I don't know if this has already been said higher up in this great long thread, but want to add my experience that it really does matter what order you put things into the VM pitcher before you begin. The cookbook that comes with it gives lots of recipe examples, and I've learned that the order of loading really matters. Also, give the machine the time to pull down all the material, and it usually will, so that no tamper is needed. When I first started with my VM, I would stop the machine to push stuff down, then learned that when I went to the sink to do something else, I could return to see the VM doing just fine without my help. This appliance has changed my eating habits, too, and for the better. Throwing handfuls of fresh spinach and kale into my fruit smoothies every morning gets me some green veggies right off for every day.
smiling, that's exactly what I'm doing this morning! :-)
Yes, order is important. Have gluten free vegan muffins baking right now. I'm new to no egg cooking (due to sudden household dietary needs) and am still experimenting with just how to create the best mix of ingredients, whipped up just so. Today, the VM whipped and expanded my wet ingredients to heights I've never seen, and handled the addition of the dry, with VM chopped nuts and fruit (which I pulse chopped first) added last. Poured very nicely into mini muffin cups.
I can see how these machines - whatever brand and model - are life changers.
I can see
Told DH that GW says I need one of these. He didn't say no.. Didn't say much of anything other than listen to me say that WF has one on sale this weekend but I think I want the shorter model which costs a bit more....
So, now - just have to watch for the $100 off sale at a couple stores.
In honor of St Patty's day, a green drink in a pilsner and muffins, all made with the new family addition.
A2, yes, I went with the 750, rather than the 7500 or the 500-series as I wanted the shorter container. And since I was already paying premium, I wanted all the presets too.
When I recover, I imagine myself picking up the 32 oz wet and dry containers too.
I have gathered that you are a creative cook from previous posts, so I look forward to seeing what you create!
Happy hunting!
Thanks for your compliment Anna - wow those are pretty muffins. I was in Ireland for one St Patty's day - they advertised on the TV- Green Beer Imported from the states!
I am sure it will take me a bit to muster the splurge for the 750 - After reading the reviews - I am leaning towards 750.
I forgot how pretty your backplash is - thanks for sharing :-)
AnnaA - your backsplash is GORGEOUS, love the close-up.
Hearing about what everyone is making makes me hungry! I love the recipe ideas. I made a roasted sweet potato misc veggies with red lentils soup over the weekend, have been enjoying it for breakfast every morning this week.
I couldn't find Kale this weekend so here is my frozen pineapple, collard green, banana and OJ smoothie of the day:
A2, the 750 is calling you! :-)
And OB2 - wow - love the 3 glass line up. And the soup sounds wonderful! I bet you have a great reservoir of recipes!
Made a chocolate hazelnut butter. I was shocked how easily it melted and emulsified simply chopped unsweetened chocolate - no pre melting needed. Added a little bit of raw Manuka honey and stevia - the ultimate no guilt take on Nutella.
Trader Joes sells Tuscan Kale pre washed and torn into pieces - some of the freshest and easy to use. I see more frequent trips to TJs in my future. :-)
Thanks for the nods to the backsplash. I still have yet to do some nice shots.
A2, we will look for your inaugural experiments.
I think before I would buy a $500 blender I would opt for something like the Bosch Universal Plus mixer with a Blender attachment.
Not quite the power of the Vita Mix (Just over 1hp vs 1.9hp) but as much as I would ever need, plus for the same price as the Vita Mix I get a nice Mixer which also has attachments for pasta, meat grinder, etc etc.
Bit more bang for the buck.
well i would have to say go with VM. i have 3 of them at different houses and love them. as for as making hummus nothing does it better and more consistent then the VM. believe me i have tried. also my wife is Palestinian and her family has been making it for a long time.(actually born there) and when i started making it in the vitamix with using sesame seeds they love it. always the comes out the same. i have the 5200, 750 and i prefer the pro series 500. thats at my house i live at most of the time.
Nun - interesting idea - I picked up a Kitchenaid mixer on CL for $75 - I doubt that I will grind my own meat but the option is there for the future.
hjscm - I am watching for a possible deal but probably will break down before then...
Why do you like the 500 over the 750.
i don't know why. i like the taller container for some reason. i don't keep anything out on counter so don't mind the size. plus i have lots of cabinets so not a problem. has anyone tried scrambled eggs? i tried a couple of times and they were pretty fluffy.
You might have a look at the 'Ninja System Blender"
Has the same 2HP motor, what appears to be a better blade design than the VM and comes with a lot more accessories.
Plus it only cost $160.
May or may not be as good as the Vita Mix but it cost $400 less.
Here is a link that might be useful: ninja Blender
I enjoy hearing everyone's unique perspectives on why they pick what they do.
Once I decided to splurge, I wanted to go all the way and get the presets that come with the 750, and I liked the idea of a shorter bowl. I am realizing how easily amused I am - I just love that clean function. I don't know why, but I get a kick out of watching it start out slow, kick up to hyper speed, then slow down to a stop. I've gone through my fair share of appliances (see earlier post in this thread), and I've never had a machine as easy to clean as this. Very happy here.
used to have blendtec, now a vitamix user. here is some info on youtube!
Here is a link that might be useful: youtube video
this is such a loaded topic! Blendtec vs. Vitamix, vi vs. emacs, Boeing vs. Airbus etc etc etc.
Although this thread is full of Vitamix fans, I believe that it's an anomaly, the allegiance usually falls 45%-45% (to make room for the also-ran brands).
I have a Blendtec and am very happy with it. The wildside jar and lack of plunger use requirement steered me towards it. One difference between Blendtec and either Vitamix or Ninja is the construction of the blade. Blendtec's is not sharp, therefore it can't get dull! Something about its geometry and RPM makes it perform very well by just crushing things, not cutting them.
I have made a 24oz green smoothie every other day in the past 18 months with perfect, consistent results. Milkshakes, tomato soup, various purees etc. Zero issues so far (the count is at 483). Will it last to 20000? I don't know but am willing to test it.
To conclude, you can't go wrong with either one. Maybe flip a coin.
JWVideo (in 2012 December): "In September, Cooks Illustrated published its latest blender ratings. It gave highest marks to ability and durablity to the Vitamix 5200 but thught a substantially less expensive Breville was almost as good. They are waiting to find out about durability."
A few years ago, I triumphantly scored a close-out Bosch MMB-2000UC blender for a great price after Bosch discontinued the model. I was certain that, weighing a ton, and built like a Sherman tank (link below), the Bosch, the third blender we had bought since 1972, would be The Last Blender We Ever Would Need. And indeed, it served us well for several years; but last week, in the midst of a very simple task (converting two-day-old bread to panko), the motor ran, but the blades did not turn. Investigation revealed that the heavy glass container had been secured to the motor base ever so slightly askew and the mating nylon cogs between the two components had stripped each other of their respective teeth. We suddenly had a new doorstop and an unexpected immediate need for a new blender.
I had always assumed that in the (very unlikely, I thought) event that we should ever need a new blender, the VitaMix would be the only one that could be as good as our Bosch. But, in doing my due diligence, I read the Cook's Illustrated September 2012 article to which JWVideo refers, and the summary of others' tests at http://www.consumersearch.com/blenders/breville-hemisphere-control-bbl605xl; then I read (many, but not all, of) the 306 (of which 205 were 5-star and another 47 were 4-star) reviews of the Breville BBL605XL at amazon.com, some of which were written by consumers who alleged that they owned both a VitaMix 5200 and a Breville BBL605XL, and actually preferred the latter for most tasks. On the basis of so much praise. we took the plunge for the Breville.
Aside: it seems that of the 306 reviews, at least 305 of them mention kale. When I was growing up, if a farmer planted kale, then while he waited for it to grow in his field, he usefully could occupy himself by filling out his application to bankruptcy court, because there would be no market for the crop when it was harvested. Times have changed, it seems.
I sincerely hope that this time we have purchased The Last Blender We Ever Would Need.
Here is a link that might be useful: The beloved late departed
another convert from Breville to VM:
just threw my old Breville in the trash. It worked fine for a couple of years but then recently started smelling like burnt rubber when working.
Went with the VM 750 and so far so good. Like the preprogrammed settings. The tamper is a great thing if you're making something really thick.
VitaMix just issued a recall for the blade in my blender. I believe it's for certain blenders sold in the last year or so, including the 750. details are on the VM website. I linked to it through Consumer Reports
Herring, how is the Breville? Any other Breville owners? I would prefer not to have the VM counter space concern. Breville with a 20% BBB coupon seems to be a possible solution. Are there things the VM or BT can do that the Breville cannot. Such as make soup? Do I need a blender that can make soup? Thoughts?
Loved reading through this thread. My trusty Oster of 10 plus buttons and 10 + years did not make it through the second can of garbanzo beans for hummus the other night and gave up in a blaze of glory (or at least a spark!) It worked so well and I keep wondering if I had just let it rest a little...My children keep telling me I should not blame myself but honestly who else? It feels like the end of an era but I amazed it has made it this far given what I put it through, weekly sometimes daily smoothies with any and every vegetable I could find. I tried a juicer but I the juice without the fiber made me too hungry. I still have the juicer which my kids actually like using for apple juice when they are in season. Supposedly I can make nut butters with it but I have never tried.
So now I seek an Oster replacement. When I first started emulsifying fruits and vegetables (I make a beet shake that I swear by during cold season) in summer 2011, I went to a Blendtec demo at a Costco an hour away. I really thought I would buy it. I went just for the demo. However, the one issue I had with the Oster was raspberry seeds. I was surprised that in theBlendtec sample they made, you could still feel the seeds. They lost me after that, plus I did not want the expense or counter space clutter. Especially when my $25 Oster seemed to do the job. My smoothies until two nights ago, were smooth!I have been expecting the Oster to give up eventually and I am surprised it took this long. If I had not done the garbanzos I think it would have been fine.
I originally thought of just getting a new Oster but I thought why not get something more. However, I am still not entirely sure what more I am getting.
I mostly blend whole frozen fruit like mango, leafy vegetables (yes the ubiquitous kale), and garbanzo beans for hummus. I was also blending sweet potato type soups however I will no longer need that I hope. To tide me over I have already bought a Breville immersion wand and chopper bowl (one limitation is it only has one blade so seems to chop everything one way!) Which I used to puree soup and make a smoothie yesterday. So far ok although the smoothie took longer than I would like.
One thing I am curious about since I have been making a lot of mung and azuki bean soups lately (feel free to put this in the kale category, I had never heard of either before a year ago!) I did try the Blendtec 3 ingredient soup at the demo. For those who own either machine, how often do you use it to make the type of soup they hype at the demos? Not to blend ingredients before or after but to actually cook the soup in a short amount of time?I would not imagine the Breville can do that or can it? Do I even need that feature?
Thank you for any thoughts and opinions
I struggled with the VItamix or Blendtec question for a long time. If I spent half as much time blending as I do researching, I'll be in really good shape :) Anyway, my mom had the 5200 from Costco and that really got me excited about the Vitamix. However, I really wanted the 750 and it is pricey. The Blendtec does offers a lot for a lower price.
What really sold me on the 750 were videos on youtube where they ran side by side. The ice cream videos weren't even close. The Vitamix blew the Blendtec away. Not that I will me making ice cream everyday, but it really highlighted the power and efficiency of the Vitamix.
If you're on the fence, watch the videos and see them in action. You can also check out my full write up posted on my blog.
Here is a link that might be useful: http://blendersmoothies.com/vitamix-vs-blendtec/
I'd definitely recommend investing in either a Blendtec or Vitamix over the other cheaper brands. There's a bit of a sticker shock... but I got so tired of replacing my junky blenders every few months/years that the Vitamix 7 year warranty won me over. I think Blendtec has a similar one.
I've never regretted it. Vitamix's are amazing machines. I've heard the same of Blendtec. Honestly, at that price point, both blenders are going to be amazing. I think it's just a matter of personal style.
You can save quite a bit of money buying a factory reconditioned model online. They come with new containers, etc. and I think a 5 year warranty. You can also get free shipping using a promo code from an affiliate like http://rawblends.com/vitamix-blender or http://boozysmoothies.com/blendtec-promo-code
Here is a link that might be useful: vitamix promo code


text:
It is common that parts of pages are replicated across several views inside an extension, or even across several extensions. Examples might be:
Up until Joomla! 3.0, the loading (and template overriding) of layout files was restricted to a given view. The JLayout interface and set of classes was added to Joomla! 3.0 to help solve this very problem. It encapsulates a layout and the data required to display it so that they can be reused across views and extensions. At the time of writing, JLayout is used by the JHtmlSidebar class to display the submenu and filters found in most backend extensions pages.
JLayout consists in an interface and 2 classes:
Here is a basic usage example of JLayoutFile:
// Create a layout object and ask it to render the sidebar $layout = new JLayoutFile('joomla.sidebars.submenu', $basePath = null); $sidebarHtml = $layout->render($data);
Executing this code creates a JLayoutFile object, wrapping a layout file, and passing in a $data structure that may be required for the display itself.
The first parameter, 'joomla.sidebars.submenu' is the file identifier. The last part ('submenu')is the file name, everything before ('joomla.sidebars') is the relative path. An optional $basePath parameter can be prepended to the relative path. If $basePath is missing, layout files will be searched inside the /layouts directory.
Our example:
new JLayoutFile('joomla.sidebars.submenu', $basePath = null)
will result in the 'submenu.php' layout file being loaded from the '/layouts/joomla/sidebars' directory.
Passing in a non-empty base path allows accessing and storing layout files anywhere on the site directory structure, for instance:
$layout = new JLayoutFile('my_layout', $basePath = JPATH_ROOT .'/components/com_something/layouts'); $html = $layout->render($data);
will load and render the 'my_layout.php' layout file found in JPATH_ROOT .'/components/com_something/layouts' directory.
Template overrides: When executing the render() method, that is actually loading the layout file, JLayoutFile will check for the existence of an override in the currently selected template, inside a 'layouts' directory. Looking back at our initial example, should you want to override the sidebar layout of all backend Joomla! extensions, you should place a 'submenu.php' file under: /administrator/templates/{currently_selected_template}/html/layouts/joomla/sidebars/
Note: JLayoutFile will check the currently selected template for overrides. As layouts can be shared across both front end and backend side, if you need to override a layout file in both cases, you'll have to put an override file in both backend and front end template.
Here is a very simple example.
Create a file, /layouts/joomla/content/helloworld.php:
<?php defined('JPATH_BASE') or die; ?>

Hello World!

Then in any layout file, such as components/com_content/views/article/tmpl/default.php add:
<?php $layout = new JLayoutFile('joomla.content.helloworld'); echo $layout->render(); ?>
View an article on the front end and you will see Hello World!. Of course often you will want to pass some data via the render() method.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
5 Nightmare Scenarios for Your Blog
It's Halloween in the United States (and much of the rest of the world). As such, people are gathering together for parties, going trick or treating and telling scary stories.
In that spirit, last week on Performancing I discussed legal nightmares that can happen to you and your blog. Specifically, there were three scenarios that, while sounding like nothing more than legal theory, actually happened to one or more bloggers.
In that spirit, here are five more practical horror stories to keep you awake when it comes to your blog. Best part of all is that I don't have to give specific examples because each and every one of these have happened not once or twice, but hundreds, if not thousands, of times.
So if you're wondering about the gruesome ways your blog can be mangled, kidnapped or killed, here are just five of the more common (and more sudden) ways to consider. Read More


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Results 1 to 15 of 28
Thread: The Day after Tomorrow
May 26th, 2004, 10:14 PM #1
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The Day after Tomorrow
I went into this movie thinking I wouldn't like it and was pleasently surprised .
It was a pretty powerful movie imo and well worth a looksee. The one thing I could have done without though was the blatant dig at Bush after the LA storm.
Also I didn't know the statue of liberty was built so strongly .
Anyway i'd give it 9 outa 10 on my scale.
May 27th, 2004, 01:42 AM #2
I was thinking about seeing this, now I will if Cal likes it so much.
Dig at Bush? I could go into a long rant on political/moral messages in films, but I'm tired, and the mods probably wouldn't like it....
May 27th, 2004, 05:08 AM #3
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Yeah I there are plenty of films that have political messages etc and the strong enviromental message in this movie didn't bother me but the Bush thing was imo a personal attack and in quite frankly i'm getting sick of it all. It's everywhere!(cept here ofcourse)
mb i'm just paranoid.
Last edited by Caldazar; May 27th, 2004 at 05:12 AM.
May 27th, 2004, 12:37 PM #4
Well, maybe a little, but I'm fairly certain that view won't be so paranoid in the near future.....
June 5th, 2004, 05:30 PM #5
I just saw the movie, and while I did enjoy it I do have one major issue.
Now, I will throw away all scientific mumbo jumbo to the wind to enjoy a movie, and you kinda have to on this one. And, I did love the 'Enviromental' message the movie sent out.
My Pick..
Which really annoys..
And a Spoiler ahead..
When they decide to stay in the library, they make the decision to use the books as fuel. HELLO!?!?!??!!? There in the library. Every shot had wooden tables, wooden chairs, wooden desks, wooden floor, wooden doors, wooden book shelves.. And they think they oughta just burn the books? WOOD BURNS! My god, how could they not burn the wood?
Everything was fine, because, well, it's a movie, it entertains.. but, WOOD BURNS!
Small note, most likely the people of Canada all survived that major storm. Why? Well, we know that wood burns!
June 6th, 2004, 03:32 AM #6
Originally Posted by Keyoke
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I liked the idea that the Royal Family froze
June 8th, 2004, 08:22 AM #7
Originally Posted by Keyoke
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Hey, did you also know that cold can't come through doors?
June 8th, 2004, 09:47 PM #8
Really? I didn't know that. Why can't it?? Explain it to us, Mr. Science Guy!
June 8th, 2004, 10:12 PM #9Originally Posted by Blackwing
What if you haven't got a draft excluder?
June 9th, 2004, 06:39 AM #10
Originally Posted by Keyoke
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Last edited by Blackwing; June 9th, 2004 at 06:44 AM.
June 10th, 2004, 12:23 AM #11Originally Posted by Blackwing
June 10th, 2004, 05:39 AM #12
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I know that, NeverMore. I live in the Frozen North, Finland. I was just trying to give a break to the film writers.
July 27th, 2004, 11:32 PM #13
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I also like the movie.
I have to say, what intrigued me was the potential for a sequel.
Probably not a movie though. Perhaps a quality book.
I was wondering about the political implications of a "once" super power now deposed of its land and resources.
How would the government rectify this situation. Would the US government eventually move to subjagate the mexican govt?
Would the Mexican govt eventually attempt to impose its will on the now vulnerable US sovereignty?
Good questions that may make a decent book.
December 6th, 2004, 06:16 AM #14
I liked it, but it wasn't great or anything. The special effect were really cool though!! The overall story wasn't that interresting and kind of old.
The environmental message was ok i guess, it's just that I don't agree with the cuase for global warming most people warn you about. Doesn't the earth warm up and cool down as it doesn't go around the sun in an equal circle? So you get an ice age and after the coldest peak in that age, it starts warming up again. The last ice age was about 20.000 years ago. So now we are just getting to the point where the earth is getting really warm, after which, I think it will cooldown again. In another couple of (tens of) thousand years people will be going around warning for global freezing !! ( If Greenpeace saves it's document carefully, hopefully they too will see the irony )
To set my point I don't think cutting back on toxic fumes and all that sort of things will change the process of global warming much, although ofcourse it's still a worthy cuase to fight for.
So that's probably why the movie wasn't all that great to me.
BTW, I think books burn better then wood (the furnished kind anyway). Because it's made from different thin pieces of burnable material, oxygen can easily get between the pages. I'm not sure though, just seems logical to me .
December 9th, 2004, 06:37 PM #15
I have to say I disagree Tay.
If the sun is getting closer to earth every year, then it will increase earth's tempature.
So once we get close enough to the sun, snow probably want stay on the ground for maybe more than 30 seconds ( opinion of course), but logically when we reach the colder side of the sun it will be impossible for another ice age ( even a scientist who watched the movie and agreed with the ice age impossible thing) due to the fact that the sun will still warm the earth, making the ice melt soon after it gathers.
Unless something big like somehow an giant meteor somehow manages to knock earth off orbit we may expierence a dramatic tempature change.
But if every things goes as they are now with the world, I would think that by 2075 earth would be in its 100*F every summer almost eveyr day.
It really makes me depressed to think about the future of the world, but I say it is not my judgement to determine its fate or future.


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I'd like anybody interested to answer a few questions. First, define the patrol method. What are the key characteristics of the patrol method? What is the role of the Adult Scouters in a troop run by the patrol method? What does the SPL/ASPL do on a trip with the patrol method? Has your troop always used the patrol method? Please describe your troops use of the patrol method. Thanks!
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Wow! Lot's of questions, but let me borrow what I've learned (mostly from Kudu) ...
Simply (and more generally) put, a patrol is a group of roughly 8 youth who hike and camp independently.
A patrol leader's primary responsibility is to qualify to take his(her) members hiking and camping.
Adults exist to mentor PLs and help identify senior PLs who would do a good job replacing them as mentors. The challenge for adults is maintaining the necessary physical distance for multiple patrols to operate comfortably in a troop environment.
Although we have encouraged patrol method, there are lots of impediments (both among adults and youth). So, we have had a difficult time maintaining that culture. Venturing, which doesn't use patrols as a method at all also can be problematic. The older the youth, and the less responsibility for younger youth, the more they prefer a "club" organizational structure to the patrol method.
The G2SS making it seem almost criminal to trust a patrol to execute a 24 hour plan hasn't helped. Thus, as soon as my youth leave the BSA, they start using the patrol method.
Patrol method = every patrol member has a job to do and every patrol member helps finish all patrol jobs.
Key characteristics: NO one is sitting on their duff watching others work. If a patrol is working smoothly, it is not readily apparent who the leaders (PL/APL) are (true for any group).
Adult role: Optional, though I guess G2SS requires an adult(s). Sometimes mentoring and logistics support.
SPL/ASPL - may assign patrols certain troop duties like flag ceremony, skits, latrine duty. Mentor PLs as needed, handle discipline issues,
Always used patrol method: No unfortunately. Klondike Derby and patrol method summer camps are our best examples where we use patrol method.
My $0.02
Patrol method ... key characteristic ... a set of scouts that want to spend time together and do things together.
Our troop is doing patrol method not as well as we did 10 years ago. Fewer scouts. More competition for time. The big change is that leaders restructured patrols and the scouts lost any emotional tie to their own patrol. It's common now for scouts to not know what patrol they are in and that's really sad.
The Patrol Method is the method for developing a scout's independent decision making skills and confidience by working with other scouts in a single group during scouting activities.
The key characteristics I look for in successful patrol methods is the whole group functioning together to accomplish their tasks.
The adults' responsibility for the patrol method is to insure the patrols are being challenged for continued growth at the maturity and experience of the scouts in the patrol.
The responsibility of the SPL and senior youth officers is to insure the scouts are growing through training and role modeling the scout oath and law.
BarryLast edited by Eagledad; 06-02-2014, 03:02 PM.
1. Patrol Identity: the patrol comes first. A Scout primarily experiences Scouting in the patrol, not the troop.
The patrol is the team; the troop is the league in which the patrol plays the game of Scouting
Mr. Scoutmaster, how are your teams doing?
Shared responsibility among patrol members builds team identity.
2. A "small group of . . . friends."
The patrol members select the patrol members.
3. An indefinite life span. NOT an ad-hoc or temporary grouping. "It takes time."
4. Scouts lead the patrols and the collection of patrols called a "troop."; youth leadership is not optional.
Leadership includes planning the patrol programs and planning the troop program
Leadership includes teaching
Stand outside the meeting room door. Do your hear Scouts or adults giving leadership? Now you know.
5. Scouts elect key leaders and appoint the rest.
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Pretty much the same as what everyone else has said except for the SPL/ASPL combo. They have no role in the patrol method other than support the PL/APL combos if necessary and when asked. Unless they are mentoring and supporting stay out of the operations of the patrols. If they, as has been mentioned, dictate which patrol does what, etc., then sorry, but such policy setting as such is the troop method. Every patrol is capable of doing their own patrol flag ceremonies, doing their own duty rosters, and latrine duties. As a matter of fact, unless an SPL is an experienced PL that can actually mentor the PL's, as the SENIOR PL, then he's pretty much a waste of time in my book. In all my years of scouting I have found maybe one or two scouts that could effective fill the role of a mentoring SPL. Otherwise, for the most part, they do nothing more than just interfere in the operation of the patrols.
I believe the PL/APL are selected by the patrol members. How they do that is up to them. If they want to elect fine. If they just come to a consensus, fine. If one boy wants to try it out and the others don't mind, fine. It's their decision, they can come to it anyway they see fit.
As far as troop "officers" like QM, Chaplain Aide, Scribe, Instructor, etc. If these officers are supporting the patrols, then they should be selected by the PL's because it will be those boys that will be needing their help. Troops that decide for the patrols who their mentors are pretty much provide a useless service to the PL's and their patrols. Lets have all the boys select based on popularity their pals for SPL, etc, so they can wear the patches, get the advancement, and every PL thinks they're just a bunch of meddling fools. That's a recipe for disaster.
A troop, it's adults and it's youth leadership are there to support the independent activity of the patrols.
In my troop, the highest ranking officer is the PL. He runs his patrol and everyone else supports him in doing that. The troop program consists of nothing more than "the patrol-method". There is no troop program, there is no need for a troop program, and efforts to create troop programming do nothing more than interfere in the patrol method.
The PLC is a clearing house of patrol concerns that the troop offices need to be providing to the patrols. If the SPL wants something to do, he can coordinate the troop officer's response to the patrol needs and make sure the PL's get what they need to run their patrols. If 3 patrols want to go to summer camp and three patrols want to do high adventure instead, the troop officers figure out what it's going to take to make it happen.
Too often the SM dictates to the SPL, who dictates to the PL's who dictates to his members and the adults call this boy-led, patrol-method. It is as far as possible, 180 degrees from what they think it is. Look at the chain of authority/command. Everyone just follows the SM, period. No need for any boy to actually produce any leadership for anyone ever. Just ask the SM. He's already told you what needs to be done.
Ever hear of a SM, SPL, ASPL, TG, Instructor, QM asking a PL what he can be doing to help him be a successful PL? Nope, me neither. How can anyone have a successful patrol-method unit when nothing is being done to support PL's in doing their jobs?
StoshLast edited by jblake47; 06-02-2014, 09:50 PM.
The troop and troop activities are part of the "life of the patrol" as defined by Mr, Hillcourt in his Patrol Leaders Handbook in Chapter III, "The Patrol and the Troop.". Thus, the SPL, as the leader of the troop, has a legitimate role to play in Mr. Hillcourt's Patrol Method. This is also, in theory, true of B.S.A. Scouting today.
It is a major part of our job to train the SPL to understand his proper role as it relates to the patrols, PL's, and the troop and to help him be good at it. All issues of "fault" aside, if the SPL does not understand or does not play his proper role, we have not succeeded at a material part of our job as Scouters.
You end by identifying the "troop method" that I see commonly in this declining age. It is not what Mr. Hillcourt describes because the troop activities have devoured the patrol activities that should be the bulk of the scouting going on in a troop, making of the PL's mere flunkies for the SPL or, more likely, the Scoutmaster. This B.S.A. at least tolerates to date. You would apparently, Mr. Hillcourt to the contrary notwithstanding, have no troop activities to avoid this evil.
Everyone is free to reject Mr. Hillcourt's vision and to imagine whatever they think works best. I suppose they are also free to call it whatever they think best, It would certainly would be better to have the typical tiny troops run as a patrol, sans SPL, or, I think, to have no troop program, if we are unable to meet Mr. Hillcourt's vision.
Unfortunate title, "Scoutmaster." As unfortunate as BP calling the principal adult "the officer" or referring to adults as "leaders" in the troop instead of "adults" or "Scouters." Words have power.
Last edited by TAHAWK; 06-03-2014, 12:44 AM.
I wonder if there's not a better way to describe the leadership in a troop. Assume there is a pyramid then mentoring and guidance go down and decisions come up from the point closest to the problem. If the decision coming up is not what the leader above likes then he has to either just ignore it and go with it, ask the scout below some questions to make sure he's seeing the entire problem, or, in the worst case, overturn it. The last case is probably reserved for safety and extreme cases of poor scout spirit. The main idea is to develop the leadership and trust of those below.
So, say a new scout is given the task of finding a patrol site. The PL mentors the young scout and as long as the scout doesn't, say, pick a campsite in a dried river bed while big, black clouds are forming overhead, the PL goes with the decision. But if the young scout is adament about the river bed then the PL can just say no. The same relationship exists between the SPL and PLs, and the SM and SPL. Part of good leadership is knowing when to step in and overturn a lower decision and when to let it be a learning experience. So, if the SPL says "let's play capture the flag on a freeway" then it's reasonable for the SM to say no. If the whole troop wants to camp in a ravine and it's not a flash flood concern, then it might be best for the adults to camp on higher ground and let it be a learning experience.
Originally posted by MattR View PostI wonder if there's not a better way to describe the leadership in a troop. Assume there is a pyramid then mentoring and guidance go down and decisions come up from the point closest to the problem. If the decision coming up is not what the leader above likes then he has to either just ignore it and go with it, ask the scout below some questions to make sure he's seeing the entire problem, or, in the worst case, overturn it. The last case is probably reserved for safety and extreme cases of poor scout spirit. The main idea is to develop the leadership and trust of those below.
So, say a new scout is given the task of finding a patrol site. The PL mentors the young scout and as long as the scout doesn't, say, pick a campsite in a dried river bed while big, black clouds are forming overhead, the PL goes with the decision. But if the young scout is adament about the river bed then the PL can just say no. The same relationship exists between the SPL and PLs, and the SM and SPL. Part of good leadership is knowing when to step in and overturn a lower decision and when to let it be a learning experience. So, if the SPL says "let's play capture the flag on a freeway" then it's reasonable for the SM to say no. If the whole troop wants to camp in a ravine and it's not a flash flood concern, then it might be best for the adults to camp on higher ground and let it be a learning experience.
Good leaders are constantly looking out for the welfare and safety of their people, so much of your concern doesn't apply here unless one is talking about poor managers who need to get a task done and don't worry about people. Cases of poor scout spirit wouldn't apply to the leader who's taking care of his people either. Chances are with good leaders, many of the "problems" you are describing will never get past the PL in the first place which once again leaves the SPL out there with nothing to do.
In the 30 years of working with scouts, I have never had to "step in and overturn a lower decision" of any scout I have had the privilege of working with. But then again, I develop leadership from the bottom up and they seem to do quite well in the trenches. I have my 6 Webelos cross-over boys going on their first campout this weekend. But I'm not worried. They have their menu planned, rides lined up, adults committed to be there, site reserved, plans for shopping this Thursday and equipment inventoried to make sure all 6 boys will have what they need. Yep, 6 Webelos boys is all I have in my troop. 100% attendance at the service project they worked on last Saturday and 100% attendance at the outing. No SPL, no TG, no QM, no troop officer of any kind, just a PL taking care of his boys getting them to their first outing. Nothing for me to overturn, their decisions are great, well thought out and for being in the program for less than 6 months, pretty impressive management skills demonstrated by all the boys in the patrol. If anyone asks my PL what his job is in this whole process, he will always answer, "I'm here to take care of my boys." They need the service project hours and campouts, and that's what he's doing. Management is but a small sub factor in real leadership, it's not all that it's cracked up to be by the management training programs of the BSA today.
Turn your pyramid upside down. Now, as SM, it appears you are there at the "bottom" to SUPPORT everything going on. Next assume everyone you support is a leader, not a follower. If something is going to need to get done, you're going to need the most hands available. Which level has the most hands? Oh, yes, the top level. If this analogy is beginning to make some sense, then you are on your way of developing a boy-led, patrol-method program run by a ton of leaders within the troop, not just a few the elected management style parlor scouts.
One problem being that for every Scoutmaster who cuts free from BSA policy and ends up with youth-run patrols and troops, more Scoutmasters seem to end up with totally adult-run troops and no real patrols at all. After all, it's all "optional."
We have a Scoutmaster in our district who sees it all as optional. His troop went twelve years with no PLC meetings and no patrols - just one big bunch with him as a leader. 50% turnover a year. A Scout came back from NYLT and made some changes as SPL, but the Scoutmaster wore him down, supported as he was by a Committee that agrees with him that "Scouting is all about advancement." Oh, and he doesn't like to camp, so . . . .
- 1 like
Stosh, we actually probably agree with each other. If I turned my pyramid upside down then I'd be making all the decisions and the youngest scouts would be coaching the PLs. Mentoring goes down and decisions are done as low as possible.
Case in point, tonight's meeting of my troop. The scouts wanted to have a scavenger hunt in our down town area. They put it together and they did a good job. I asked about the buddy system and they already had it taken care of. I did not make any decisions. At the end of the contest a bunch of scouts were hanging around listening to some guy standing on a box telling everyone they were going to hell. Then all of a sudden an angry drunk starts shouting at the soap box guy, and there are half a dozen scouts between them. I stepped in and made a decision to get my scouts out from the middle of that. It was the right thing to do even though some of the scouts wanted to stick around and watch, including some patrol leaders. That's the kind of decisions I'm talking about over ruling. I've dealt with enough drunks to know they're unpredictable and the scouts haven't.
Matt, I'm thinking we're pretty much on the same page with the exception of the pyramid. I like it upside down to show that mentoring doesn't often get defined correctly, but support pretty much speaks for itself. Some seem to think that mentoring involves a lot of direction giving whereas support involves finding out where the boy is at and then help him with his decisions. It also is a visual on who has the heaviest weight to bear to hold things together and assist in making it happen. It also means the SM and SPL's are focused not on the whole picture, but just the responsibilities directly above them they have to support.
And maybe you have dealt with enough drunks over the years and the boys haven't. But if you're going to drag them away when the fun's just starting, they aren't going to learn until next time when you're not around. I'd get my boys back away a safe distance, but then during the after action review (AAR) I would use it as a discussion on the drugs/alcohol thingy. Heck you had a real live example for your demonstration for the boys.
I create opportunities for my boys. Some will enhance and inspire, others will be a challenge, but the boys will learn from both. If my boys ever are accosted by someone when I'm not around, I surely hope they will remember their scouting experiences to guide them through.
Frankly, I like the patrol-method the best. It is a never ending source of inspiration to me and the parents when they see their kids taking on some pretty challenging tasks within their patrols.
And before anyone gets too out of shape about the independence of each of the patrols, there is nothing in the rules that say two or three patrols can't coordinate their activities for a larger group experience. Maybe the SPL could assist/support in those cooperative ventures. QM could take inventory of gear to know if there is enough equipment to handle a bigger endeavor, etc.
I had one of my patrols go with a troop (adult-led) that had never been on any kind of high adventure and asked if some of my older boys could help on introducing them to HA. My older boy patrol jumped at the chance and did a really nice job working with the other troop. The SM was concerned at first because only I as ASM from my troop went on the trip. I think they were looking for some adult help, but soon realized they didn't need any. I basically went along for the ride, drank coffee and pretty much stayed out of my patrol's way.
I wonder how many Adults end up not volunteering in Scouts because they're afraid it's "too much work?"


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Banjoverse: The Full Epic
Playlist Navigation Bar
Adraefan: 13. Chorus IV (Golradir)
I remember now,
my name is not First One,
not really, not as I have been called for these millennia.
I remember now,
as the first arrows fly
soar through the air
initiate the battle
(the Easterlings bark)
I remember now.
My name is Golradir,
son of Oropher, a royal elf,
and royal myself all the same.
This is good news, indeed, noble!
I did not think to remember it ere the end.
(the Easterlings roar)
And perhaps this is it?
So it begins,
let my fingers be quick
and the arrow true
for this, I should have done long-long-long-ages ago.
The fight is on!
Bow singing, stringing the arrows, aligning,
and… (crescendo) gone! A perfect hit!
The fight is on,
and I am winning
(honor respect title name identity).
Eye the targets:
the crook of that one's neck,
the space behind that one's ear
the second rib up on the tall one.
Snap, snap, snap!
All fall away and I see beside me, in front of me, up ahead, behind, the others:
Second One to Third One to Boromir to Radagast,
blows over blows under blows under slashes by cuts.
There, look there! See that! See?
A whirlwind, a hurricane, but not air, not wind,
they are birds
(Does Radagast know what he is doing?)
coming to peck out Easterling eyes! What a sight!
…No pun intended.
Up ahead, on my right, there:
Third One with daggers (my daggers, I let him borrow them)
slicing through the Enemy of bramble-bush beards
he slides through the seething mass, and there is no hesitation.
Good, my brother, good! Well done!
Checking left: Second One whips around with his sword
Catches the sunlight, fla-ashes silver in my eyes, beautiful, yes!
Stumbling in the mess up ahead, there is Boromir,
he does not fight gracefully, no ease of movement, no agility,
only desperate swings and lunges
(alas, but he is just a Man, with short life and small mind)
Ho! Boromir! Ware! On your right!
Quickflash – I must do it.
Nock the arrow into place,
aim – but he shifts now, turns left
aim – but the view is blocked by sun and Wild Men
aim again and release.
Fly, fly, fly
through the air and follow that arrow
to another mind, enter it, and hear now its thoughts.
II. …the battle continues…
A jolt, a push, a blow to the back,
spin around and see the Easterling fall dead
no more a threat.
Jerk the sweat-soaked hair from the eyes:
search the field for the friend who guarded my back,
catch First One's eye; there, arrogant as always,
grins nods yells: "You're welcome!"
before continuing into the surging battle-thick.
A buzzing in the ears
locusts picking pulling stinging the Wild Men.
Radagast's booming voice,
trembling loud like marble columns falling:
And Boromir thinks to himself, sees himself
as once a Captain-General of Gondor
leader of Men, favorite son
and Prince of the White City:
"Where has all that gone?"
Sees himself fighting Wild Men in a dark place
forsaken lands and forgotten home
and he says to himself:
"Why have I come here?"
Remembers the dream-prologue,
warning him of the future
telling him that tomorrow will get worse
and worse and worse
and after endless worse tomorrows:
"When will they get better?"
But they will get better! But they will!
Cut through another Easterling!
Push back the shadow, push it all the way back
into Mordor and then put a stopper on it
and let it implode on itself!
Imagine the day!
The White Tower glowing like a beacon for all
flags in the wind, the White Tree beaming
wide-blue skies and far-away clouds…
Remember Faramir's dream-words?
Peace peace (say it) PEACE!
That is what you fight for, Boromir:
you fight for peace.
Now go!
III. …the battle ends.
Imagine the view from the clouds.
No, higher still,
imagine the view from the sun
so that the clouds are white specks
and the battle below,
just a dusty spot on Dagorlad plains.
But even from this height,
you can see the sweat trickling down Boromir's temple,
you can hear Second One holding his breath before releasing the blow,
all of this and everything,
you see hear know.
This is as the Valar perceive it,
(atop the Holy Mountain, Taniquetil)
at once up close and from afar
sensing the thoughts of all the players,
inserting instincts, manipulating impulses,
quickening one blow while slowing another,
all for one Ultimate Goal.
Now sit with Them,
and listen to Their talk:
"See You yonder Boromir?"
"My gaze catches all."
"I know this, it was not meant to offend."
"Speak then. What with Boromir's fight?"
"'Tis time for the elf-exile's end."
"Very well, 'tis time.
As an aside, see thither his father go up in flame,
in this moment, not one loss but two,
for good-bad son of Gondor.
Go, then, I will not do the dirty work."
"As You wish."
Soar down, ride the wind,
passing first cloud then sea
over rippling waves and storms and fair skies again
pass into the lands…
Look: Pelennor Fields!
See Meriadoc Brandybuck,
with arm and vision fading from Nazgûl-chill.
See Théoden good King of Rohan
blink and whisper, "Éowyn..."
See staff-less Gandalf riding Shadowfax wide,
beckoning to Aragorn King: "They retreat!"
And now pass the waves and waves
of orcs-goblins-Wild Men-Haradrim-oliphaunts
with spears-swords-catapults.
Pass over the Anduin, the line of orcs continues,
unbroken, like a vein from Mordor,
pumping black blood continuous
up to the very Tower.
Now veer north by northeast,
to another fight,
that has yet to finish.
There are your players,
there are your prey:
First One (goodbye)
Second One
Third One
Zoom in close close to Boromir:
see his chest rise and fall, his body expand
with each breath that sucks in the thick dusty air,
hear him cry out, sounds a bit like "Nraawwrgh!"
as he thrusts his sword behind him
always fighting for peace.
Now move five heads down
and find First One, the noble elf Golradir,
drawing his final arrow
loading it for the last time
aiming, his last aim,
and releasing - but not soon enough!
The Wild Man (now called Golradir's Bane), arrow in chest,
continues forward, crude blade raised high,
and here are First One's thoughts as he sees
his end:
Let them know my name,
my name is Golradir.
I have earned my place
among the heroes of elf-kind.
Let them mark this place
A hush...
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Comments for individual derby entries are placed in this thread.
Re: Genesis in the Mind
I decided to rework the elements of the design a bit, hopefully it works and they match better in style now
CLICK HERE for larger detail image
Re: Birth of the Moon
If you're not up to date with the cool new theory of the moon's creation, you should go to the Museum of Natural History. It's what I did. *dork*
Re: The Beginning of the End
The Beginning of the End
Embarrassment at being caught staring. Awkward greeting. Attempt at a joke about volleyball. Polite giggles. Introduction. Late night board games. Late night swimming in street clothes. Holding hands watching fireworks. Kissing on the steps of a church in the summer night air. Promising that it will never end.
Re: The Start of True Love
Sure they're a little different, but they're so much the SAME too! This could be the beginning of a true love. I've had a hedgehog and a puffer as pets, gotta say I was a little partial to the puffer, but they were both cute and I think I would be so funny to see them together.
Four pets, dumped into a sewer by a careless child. One vial of mutagen, dropped into the sewer by something that I don't really remember and should go look up. Combined...
Re: In the beginning
And the winner is...
Re: Soup's On!
This is a fairly literal concept on the beginnings of life on Earth.
However, I doubt that the primordial soup was ever as cutesy as this.
Don't forget to vote!
Particularly for this one. ;)
</shameless self-promotion>
Re: A New Friendship
Please vote for this shirt. Remember the first time you saw your pet? Certainly a happy friendship begain at that time!
Re: The epic begins
This is made of awesome.
Re: A Fresh Start
A vote for this shirt is a vote for hope!
Re: Guess Who Came First?
He's a proud papa.
Re: Dawn
sort of inspired by Wall-E which we watched last night.
I don't normally like obvious references, but this one's cute enough and so out of the blue that I couldn't help but laugh when I saw it. You win. GMV
Re: Life Renewed
I really like the sense of atmosphere created in this design. The larger bird behind the little birdie really helps to give nice depth and the colors are perfect! And did I mention the fact that it looks amazing on the tee? The placement is spot on! If this doesn't get printed its a shame...
fablefire wrote:L O L
This is made of awesome.
I think he actually used vintage awesome... GMV
Very cool! I love science based stuff, and you managed to make it wearable to boot. Nicely done.
Re: first day of school
in my opinion pond scum, amoeba, and paramecium really get a bad wrap. so, in this beginnings derby i decided to glorify the little guy, literally, and give him some much needed spotlight. in a way, you could consider this a PR campaign for pond scum everywhere.
what am i writing? anyway...first entry for this derby. i hope you like it. let me know what you think! :-D
Kahia wrote:sort of inspired by Wall-E which we watched last night.
yeah.. what my wife said. :P
I saw this in the thread, it looks great. :D Is that cranberry or red?
Awesome Design! I love the way you pulled off the phoenix's rebirth here! GMV!
ah ha! i see you too are a friend of the pond scum. :-D
Re: Gonna Be Big in Japan
Exercise in Futility #1, 2009
Mothra and Godzilla before Mothra banged Godzilla's GF and they became enemies.
Wow. This is insanely good. O.O
The curious turtles, the upturned one...this is an awesomely cute shirt!
sekiyoku wrote:I saw this in the thread, it looks great. :D Is that cranberry or red?
Thanks!, It's cranberry. I tried red but it was just too much.
That is great. GMV.
...when the evil Shredder attacks...these turtle boys don't cut him no slack! ...ahh, the days of my youth...
Re: She Let Them Go
i like the finished product! nicely done. :-D
The space race begins!
Wow, that is beautiful.
I really like this design but i am not very fond of the colors.
Will it be about that size on the Rollerball (2002) in the background?
Or is that not even left up to you?
Yep. Still cute. And the colors look great on the shirt.
i really like the colors on this one!
hahahaha! Great.
Oh the placement looks terrific. Nice.
Re: First meeting
i want this one to fog and go to print. perfect shirt of me and my wife. she loves to crochet! gmv
I usually like your take on the derby boots, and I do again this time... Creative approach and nice story telling. And it looks good on the tee which is the most important. Props.
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Outdoor and Adventure
This collection of hats give you any type of safari, outback, western, or pith helmet that you may need on any outdoor excursion. Whether you're going hiking along a nature trail, fishing with your son, or just barbequing in the backyard, it is important to have a hat that is comfortable and practical. Each style of hat here offers protection and comfort in their own ways.
Safari hats generally have the smallest brims of the group, contoured downwards in the front and the back. They are the most casual of the bunch, great for a family picnic or a walk in the city. Most outback hats have chincords to ensure that your hat will not fly off. These hats are great for boating and hiking. Westerns have bigger brims that flared outwards on the sides, good for neck, face and shoulder coverage. Pith helmets are classic, sturdy hats that protect your head from minor bumps and bruises. No matter which hat suits your style best, be sure that it will be ready for any outdoor adventure.
Stetson Airwaycolor:
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Special Price: $58.00
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Belfry Konacolor:
Panama Straw Safari HatPrice: $129.00
Belfry Zealandcolor:
Vented Panama Safari HatPrice: $129.00
Belfry Daleycolor:
Panama Straw Safari HatPrice: $129.00
Belfry Vistacolor:
Classic Panama GamblerPrice: $129.00