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|Softail Blackline FXS : 2012–2013
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fkbrink Posted:
This is a great product. The fit and finish on this exhaust system is second to none. I purchased these pipes at Street Vibrations in Reno this past September. The sales person really took the time and made sugestions as to which system he liked. I was originally going to go with the short shots but am glad that I made the choice I did. I installed them on an 08 Xbones and they really improved the look of the bike. Thanks again
jopav Posted:
I installed the system myself on my 02 Nightrain. They replaced a set of chrome Sampsons and the bike looks radically better. I get comments everywhere I go about how good they look and sound. Note: if you don't have fuel injec, make sure to order the 02 plugs p/n 16925. The kit comes with right passenger foot peg extenders that work if u have the stock pegs, u will need them otherwise the peg is directly above the exhaust and will likley be scratched by the passenger. I also recomend replacing the exhaust gaskets and circlips (flange clips), they do not come in the kit and they help ensure a leak free system.
jimms Posted:
Easy to install, installed on 02 fxsts sound great
buster_lloyd Posted:
they are nice
abcsofhealth Posted:
easy install.
goodall Posted:
no problems,fit perfect
gbdweller Posted:
These pipes make my Fatboy look mean and growl like a beast. The fit was perfect. Of course J&P Cycles shipped them to me promptly.
danlafr Posted:
Very nice awesome sound!. This one does not fit the 2012 softails! needed to buy seperate fitting for o2 sensors
eshleman Posted:
I really like the Big Radius pipes. Sent to me promptly, less expensive than the dealership, and @#%! do they sound good.
cnicky01 Posted:
now this is what a night train is supposed to sound like! loud enough but not obnoxious even with the baffles in. install was pretty easy as long as you have 2 people doing it only because you don't want to put a mark on the black finish. very happy with these pipes. jp shipped my order fast as usual.
bamf1978 Posted:
sounds awesome and looks great. very easy to install
popeye1988 Posted:
Very happy with these pipes. Awesome sound
Thefordlover_01 Posted:
Pipes fit great and sound nice, thanks
jaymz_kos Posted:
The pipes look and sound great they were easy to install too !
csmith226 Posted:
Pipes look and sound awesome on my 2009 denim black fatbob.
mcafee036 Posted:
Love it easy to install great sound
ew_grover Posted:
I had them on my 883, so glad to get them on the DYNA!
lordgwilym Posted:
These are awesome. Just be warned, unlike chrome, the black ceramic finish is very, very, delicate. One dropped wrench and it's all over.
HDIron Posted:
Good fit, and amazing sound! Best looking exhaust for the new Sportster Iron 883.
malatic Posted:
Bought these for my 2009 Thunder Mountain Custom Spitfire. They didn't really fit with the stock mounting plate (as it is a custom bike), but got them on and they look and sound great.
JayBo13 Posted:
They sound great out of the box with the baffles still in. Loud deep and throaty. On my Nightster the front heat shield scrapes on sharp right turns. If I could go back I would have picked some pipes that sat a little higher and didn't scrap so easily.
phillyd Posted:
Good price got here fast and look and sound great.
Klbgilbert Posted:
The product came very fast! Very easy install, and amazing sound!!! I'm ready to turn some heads!
fabriciosa Posted:
I love this exhaust the sound is great and is not a loud noise. Fit very well in the motorcycle. It is possible take off the black cover and ride with aluminum exhaust, very cool.
janstro Posted:
Look and sound awesome!
Seaplane-883 Posted:
WOW! Great looking pipes on my Iron. VERY loud - may need to add some quiet baffles. Definitely noticed increased hp on bike (with high flow air filter and Fuelpak).
kevinha Posted:
Delivered with minor scratches on the pipes themselves, though covered by the full wrap heat shields. Exellent price for these pipes.
TMarshall67 Posted:
Awesome sound and beautiful appearance. Put these pipes on my 2013 Fat Boy Lo and it really opened up bike.
drohare Posted:
Best Sound Ever!!
Brats Posted:
AWESOME! Sounds great, easy to install.
Brats Posted:
AWESOME! Sounds great, easy to install.
josmarcas Posted:
Looks great on my Fatboy Low, sounds awesome.
danielcn Posted:
These are great¡¡ they look really cool and the fact that they are aiming to the floor it makes the sound bounce back so it makes sound stronger¡¡
Rodney54 Posted:
The exhaust looks and sounds great. Only problem I had was the fit up you really need another hand helping you line everything up. Make sure you wash the pipes with hot soapy water right after the install.
jayballs3 Posted:
Pipes look great and sound awesome. Very happy with the choice.
CherylRondeau Posted:
Exhaust system looks fantastic, very pleased with it. Was in perfect condition upon delivery.
sgilmore99 Posted:
Really nice pipes. They are loud so be prepared. I had to buy a super tuner and stage 1 intake. Also had to have it tuned on a dyno. The power increase over stock is amazing. I have a 2013 Dyna Fat Bob.
jthornton17 Posted:
Exactly what I wanted; the sound is loud and mean 13 Harley Wide Glide
magmini Posted:
great sound and look great ! easy to install also .
Corde1968 Posted:
Very happy with the service and delivery of this product. Pipes are everything, and more, as advertised. Great job J&P!!!
bpstein123 Posted:
Just put these on the other day in 30 degree weather. Haven't had a chance to ride with them yet. Can't wait for the weather to turn. All I can tell you is that these things have a mean growl upon startup and look incredible. I paired them with a VO2 Naked intake and Fulepak Fp3.
dmtboy Posted:
My new BLACK 2-INTO-2 BIG RADIUS EXHAUST SYSTEM look awesome on my HD breakout..Thank you JP CYCLE for quick delivery
JBSchwartz12 Posted:
Easy install and look and sound great
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Note: Please see U.S. EPA and your respective state and local regulations to confirm noise and emission compliance.Important Exhaust Notes:• Note: With any new exhaust, we recommend changes to carburetor jetting or use of an aftermarket fuel injection control module.• There is no warranty on exhaust pipes and mufflers with regard to any discoloration. Blueing is caused by tuning characteristics, cam timing, carburetor jetting, overheating, etc. and is not caused by defective manufacturing. No refunds on exhaust pipes once motorcycle is started unless there's a manufacturer's defect.• Flanges and retaining rings are not included with most aftermarket exhaust for 1984-2013 Evolution and Twin Cam models. Re-use your existing hardware, or purchase replacement hardware.
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Moderators: Blitzen, Almighty Benny, Silent-sigfig
Natalya wrote:Fredde, you don't win the internet with this.
You ARE the Internet.
Natalya wrote:The only impartial way to do this would be to have judges who are not playing. Or just say everyone is a because they showed up.
Killer Karetsu wrote:Lol the swedish church is awesome.
I could even drop by! Is the age range free?
Natalya wrote:What's that? I can't hear you over the sound of how banned you are.
Warhead wrote:my head burns with War.
Alex wrote:Colette wrote:The only thing we have in the USA are bald eagles, a dysfunctional government, and a right to vote for that dysfunctional government.
Edit: Oh, and legos that cost 50% less than the rest of the world. Can't forget that.
Not necessarily true. I got a great deal off of a polish bricklink store for my crimson dawn guys, who were much cheaper there than they would have been at any US store. The torsos were $0.60 each, with 60 odd torsos, while most places had them at over $1.30 each and only had around 1-5 torsos. I ended up getting the torsos, heads, helmets and weapons for 20 guys for about $40, although I had to find legs somewhere else.
Also, despite our problems, the USA is still pretty awesome. Compared to many other countries, our problems are pretty small. A massive obesity epidemic for example is far easier to deal with than mass starvation. Our dysfunctional government still functions better than many others, such as Greece, Russia, China, Egypt, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea or Somalia, to name a few.
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Primas line of Say it In Crystals and Pearls collection is just wonderful. I love PRIMA and could buy everyone of their flowers, butterflies and other embellishments. Got to love Prima and this is a wonderful color
This works really well as a collage piece, especially when paied with the romantic themed papers that are now out. I will be getting more.
What can I say I love Prima and I love shiny, so this bling ribbon was perfect for me! Adheres beautifully-Prima high quality as usual!
Awesome product. Super sticky, makes any project stand out from the average...Love my Prima products <3


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Dr. Fuller has been trained in one medical specialty.
Psychiatry is a medical specialty focused on the diagnosis, treatment, management and prevention of mental illness. Physicians who practice psychiatry are referred to as psychiatrists; psychiatrists differ from psychologists in that they are licensed physicians (hold either an MD or DO degree). Psychiatrists are able to provide most of the same treatments to patients as psychologists, but are also licensed to prescribe medication when treating mental illnesses. It is often said that psychiatry is the "primary care" of mental health and wellness.
When providing care to patients, psychiatrists employ a variety of tests and examinations to arrive at a diagnosis. When first meeting a patient, a psychiatrist will perform a mental status examination (MSE). During this diagnostic procedure, the physician attempts to identify the presence and extent of a patient's mental illness. The psychiatrist will observe and document the patient's state of mental health, which includes observations of the patient's behavior, appearance, speech, mood, thought process, cognition, thought content, insight, affect and judgment. After performing the examination, the psychiatrist will be able to arrive at a diagnosis.
Psychiatrists may see patients for mental disorders and illnesses such as dementia, anxiety disorders, obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), schizophrenia, depression, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), eating disorders, drug abuse, addictions, bipolar disorder, panic disorders, phobias, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and attention deficit disorder (ADD), among many others. After arriving at a diagnosis, the psychiatrist may employ a variety of treatment techniques and procedures. These may include counseling, psychotherapy and the prescription of medications such as antidepressants or antipsychotics, among others.
Learn more about psychiatry at MD.com.


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What I found interesting after watching the video conference on National's website is that allowing gay scouts will be all inclusive and not be at the discretion of any CO. That means that if if gay boy wants to join an LDS troop, a Catholic troop or any other conservative groups troop the CO will be unable to deny him membership with the current wording of the proposal. IMHO I do not see the LDS and many other CO's with an anti gay position remaining in scouting. I think the BSA shot themselves in the foot once again by not giving the CO the option based on their religious principles. If this passes on May 23rd we all may be witnessing the beginning of the demise of boy scouting. Yet another case of National trying to mandate to the CO's an unenforceable policy. Maybe it is time to bring back Woodcraft Rangers, Sons of Daniel Boone, etc.
I read it. One unit saying thanks but no thanks doesn't deny him membership of BSA. This is a resolution that stops National from being forced to kick a boy out of Scouting because somebody dropped a dime. National can't force any group of volunteers from accepting a gay boy in their unit.
Originally posted by BadenP View PostWhat I found interesting after watching the video conference on National's website is that allowing gay scouts will be all inclusive and not be at the discretion of any CO. That means that if if gay boy wants to join an LDS troop, a Catholic troop or any other conservative groups troop the CO will be unable to deny him membership with the current wording of the proposal. IMHO I do not see the LDS and many other CO's with an anti gay position remaining in scouting. I think the BSA shot themselves in the foot once again by not giving the CO the option based on their religious principles. If this passes on May 23rd we all may be witnessing the beginning of the demise of boy scouting. Yet another case of National trying to mandate to the CO's an unenforceable policy. Maybe it is time to bring back Woodcraft Rangers, Sons of Daniel Boone, etc.
Originally posted by Krampus View Post@Rick in CA: You cannot seriously think that the people who don't want gays in Scouting are on an all out crusade to get ride of the non-Christians too.
Basically I saw that a lot of the people (though not all) in the anti-membership change camp were very dismissive of different beliefs ("Don't talk to me about nonsectarian! That's just PC b#&# s#&# they had to put in to keep funding from the United Way!").
Yes, they are a minority (at least I hope they are - they are in my council), but there are a lot of them. My fear is that if they win the vote, it will empower them to push their point-of-view in more areas. I have already met one scouter that said he was effectively made unwelcome (at council and district events) in his old council simply because he was a Muslim and offered to lead an opening prayer at a round table.
Think about it, arguing against inclusion of gays based on religious belief is incompatible with nonsectarian. How many of the people making that argument know that but just don't care? For many scouters, nonsectarian is something to be ignored. For some, it's something to be gotten rid of.
Already there are districts where if you are a non-Christian scout or scouter, you will have your face rubbed in that fact at every event. And for some scouters, that is the point.
Maybe I'm overreacting to things said in heat. But I was surprised how little respect some people have for faiths other than their own.
Can you name and shame these districts or is it all in your head?
The Muslim scouter that told me about his old council did tell it's name, and where it was. But that was at a district bbq three years ago, and I don't remember (I just remember it wasn't in a western state - yah, big help there). What I can tell you is basically the story he told me: He had been attending his district round table, and noticed that they were always opened with an overtly Christian prayer. This didn't bother him much, he just assumed that was because only Christians were volunteering to lead the prayer. So he offered to lead the opening prayer at the next round table. He was told that non-Christian prayers were not allowed, and to justify that he was told a story about the last time it was tried (basically the result was threats and violence - he told me the story as he remembered it, we both felt it was so over the top - it had to be grossly exaggerated). He then felt that several scouters went out of their way to make him feel uncomfortable at district and council events (such as the person leading the prayer instead of standing in front of the room, that person would come over and stand in front of him or another Muslim scouter when leading the prayer - or including phrases like "bring Jesus to the non-believers" in the prayers). He told me he reached out to other scouters for support, and didn't get any. So he stopped going to round table and other council events.
Of course this is one persons point of view, is he exaggerating or misinterpreting? Maybe. I assume he was basically honest about his experiences.
My personal guess is that what he encountered was not an official policy of the district or council, it was the result of a group of scouter volunteers taking it upon themselves to "Christianize" things, and no one was willing or interested in challenging them (or perhaps it was an anti-Muslim thing).
Of course, maybe he made up the whole thing, and it's all in his head. I don't really know.
[QUOTE=Faith;n374245]Originally posted by BadenP View PostThat means that if if gay boy wants to join an LDS troop, a Catholic troop or any other conservative groups troop the CO will be unable to deny him membership with the current wording of the proposal. IMHO I do not see the LDS and many other CO's with an anti gay position remaining in scouting. I think the BSA shot themselves in the foot once again by not giving the CO the option based on their religious principles.
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[QUOTE=Rick_in_CA;n374324]What I can tell you is basically the story he told me: He had been attending his district round table, and noticed that they were always opened with an overtly Christian prayer. This didn't bother him much, he just assumed that was because only Christians were volunteering to lead the prayer. So he offered to lead the opening prayer at the next round table. He was told that non-Christian prayers were not allowed, and to justify that he was told a story about the last time it was tried (basically the result was threats and violence - he told me the story as he remembered it, we both felt it was so over the top - it had to be grossly exaggerated).
I doubt this is wide spread, but it is out there.
King Ding Dong commented05-16-2013, 01:37 PMEditing a commentEven the quote machine is buggy. That was posted by Rick not Huzzar.
05-16-2013, 02:58 PMEditing a commentThat attitude is definitely common in the South but in my immediate area most Protestant denominations have COs that are more 'open', as you put it. Go any direction in a 5 mile radius and it all changes.
Ou CO Executive Officer has already written our Council Scout Executive stating our CO may not renew their charter next year if the membership policy changes. It would require a vote of the CO membership to do this, but it is a very real possiblity. I'm carrying on as business-as-usual with the Pack as if nothing is happening. If the policy changes, my personal future in Scouting is uncertain.
I am in a conservative District with conservative CO's and I do believe that the CO's will practice local membership automomny
Scouts Canada may have better looking uniforms, but that's all they have. They have suffered massive losses in membership since they changed their membership policy years ago. The BSA does not need to be looking to them for enlightenment. A quick google search for Scouts Canada and you will find the stories and numbers.
05-18-2013, 04:22 AMEditing a commentMattR, I agree. I've seen this lack of attention to or regard for the cubs for as long as I've been in scouting. They seem taken for granted and yet they ARE the key to the future for all the rest. I'll write this again: I'd go back to the cubs in a heartbeat. I like them best of all and would gladly take that on again...far better than the boy scouts or venturers.
Peregrinator commented05-19-2013, 07:52 PMEditing a comment" Meanwhile in the UK, they've also allowed gays and their membership is growing so fast they have to limit membership due to a shortage of adult leaders. Post hoc. "
Meanwhile, in Canada:
I don't have statistics handy for the UK Scout Association. It would be interesting to see them, especially if they're broken out by section.
(Note that I'm not claiming the stats say that allowing homosexuals results in a decline in membership. But it clearly doesn't turn an existing decline around.)
Merlyn_LeRoy commented05-20-2013, 02:15 PMEditing a commentPeregrinator, did you somehow miss Jeffrey H's original comment, which had the exact same link? My response was just to refuse his post hoc fallacy that the decline in Canada was caused by allowing gays, by showing that the UK hasn't suffered in a similar fashion. Do keep up.
I say again, there are no valid reasons, other than religious, for the exclusion of gays at any level of Scouting. If the BSA is truly nonsectarian, then there is no reason to ban them. For the benefit of those concerned about gay leaders taking boys into the woods, Wayne Brock stated that we have the best youth protection program of any youth organization. So, either the BSA is a religious organization with a particular religious bias, or it isn't.
There is a difference between "moral" and "sectarian." If we don't have a base-level agreement on what "morality" means, then "non-sectarian" devolves into an individual doing what he or she feels is subjectively right - which even the most awful people do. The basis for morality is Natural Law.
Without arguing about sectarian, denominational views on the rightness or wrongness of homosexual acts, one can look at the Natural Law argument against homosexuality, and come to the conclusion that homosexual behavior, or insisting on an identification as one who promotes immoral behavior as a norm, is not acceptable. Natural Law is at the base of all traditional religious belief, as it can be derived from reason and reason is a God-given instrument, but it is not necessary to be sectarian, or even religious at all, to say that homosexual behavior is disordered and should not be promoted.
Even if we ignore all traditional religious or moral belief systems, the evidence shows that homosexual behavior is emotionally, physically, and psychologically hazardous, particularly in juveniles. The long-term physical effects of sodomy are injurious to the male body, as proctologists and urologists will tell you. The willful desire to engage in a sterile lifestyle deprives young men of one of the greatest joys they can achieve, becoming a father. The evidence that the person most likely to sexually molest a boy is another boy leads us to the conclusion that there are enormous risk factors in including a subculture of boys that want to have sex with other boys, within a group of boys in an environment such as scouting. Regardless of YS procedures, there are also enormous liability risks to any adult scout leader and CO involved in a troop where a child is molested by another boy, whether BSA will defend the leaders or CO or not.
The evidence from the Center for Disease Control and the other sources that have been cited on this forum in the previous months of this debate clearly reflect that a premature identification as "gay" should be discouraged.
The evidence that most of these risk factors have little or nothing to do with societal disapproval (research shows the highest reason for suicide attempts among gay youth is not societal or family disapproval, but the break-up of a sexual relationship), so changing the societal environment will have little effect on these anti-social and risk-seeking behaviors.
If the physical, mental, and psychological risks that are associated with homosexual behavior and self-identification in youths were associated with any other behavior or self-identification, there would be a nation-wide campaign to discourage such behavior and self-identification. We discourage smoking, alcoholism, anorexia, obesity, and bullying for far less.
Moral behavior tracks pretty closely with health - psychological, emotional, physical, and spiritual. If we are to be a part of an organization that promotes health and moral growth, we should discourage homosexual identification and, certainly, behavior. This is, in my opinion, a bad resolution. The current policy of discouraging sexualization of youth and vigorous youth safety policies is better than the new proposal.
AZMike, you're assuming that homosexuality is a choice. I have yet to see any compelling evidence to support that.
Morality is irrelevant when we're talking about something that people have no more say in than you or I have in our heterosexuality.
Merlyn_LeRoy commented05-20-2013, 02:18 PMEditing a commentBy the way AZMike, how does the "natural law: argument against homosexuality work against, say, whiptail lizards?
Does Wayne Brock have any 12 year old sons or grandsons? If so, I offer to find two gay guys that are willing to take them into a wilderness area for 10 days. Just the kids and the two gay guys. I will guarantee that the two gay guys have passed the local school's child protection background check and have watched a video about Youth Protection on BSA website.
Think he'll bite?
I don't know if Wayne has grandkids that age or not. I don't, but if I did, yes, I would be okay with that. Kids or grandkids. Assuming I knew the guys in question. That goes for letting kids go into the woods with any 2 guys who have passed the BSA background check. Why would you assume the gay guys would be any more likely to molest them than any other 2 men in Scouting? But, in fact, you are posing a strawman kind of argument, because normally 2 boys and 2 men would not be going on a Scout outing.
You don't trust two gay guys you've never met before even though they pass the test for best youth protection in the country. I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya. :-)
There is no straw man argument. It's the rubber hitting the road argument. You're the one limiting the scene to two boys. I treat two gays wanting to be away with a group of teenage boys the EXACT same way as I do two straight men wanting to be away with a group of teenage girls. Extreme suspicion.
Sorry, I stand corrected. No, I would feel differently about 2 known gay leaders taking a troop of kids out. Again, I would want to know them as well as I would know any Scout leader who takes kids out, regardless of any background checks. To some degree, I treat any men (or women) who want to take boys out camping with extreme suspicion unless I know them or have at least spent time watching their interaction with kids.
Should also point out that the bottle neck in UK's further growth is adults don't want to volunteer and be accused of being kiddy diddlers, which is more of a concern now they let gay adult men sign up to take boys into the woods for 10 days.
Originally posted by AZMike View PostThere is a difference between "moral" and "sectarian." If we don't have a base-level agreement on what "morality" means, then "non-sectarian" devolves into an individual doing what he or she feels is subjectively right - which even the most awful people do. The basis for morality is Natural Law.
AZMike, I agree with some of what you say and disagree with some. First, there is not a consistent set of moral rules. Different religions believe different things about a few things, homosexuality in particular. I agree that "doing what he or she feels is subjectively right" is a bad idea. But my religious beliefs are different from yours. You might say that I'm not true to the bible, but I'm fairly certain you aren't either. Do you keep kosher? 2500 years ago slavery was fine. It was actually considered a good way to help slaves pay off debts. Nobody believes in that anymore, although it is in the bible. Over 2500 years society has evolved. So it's not that people are doing whatever is convenient, it's that slowly, over decades at the shortest, our definition of moral is changing.
Regarding your point that gay kids present a problem, you may be right. Most kids have problems because they haven't accepted who they are. Accepting that you're gay when your friends are everything has got to be hard on anyone. But is a gay kid any different than a kid that has Aspergers? I've had a few in my troop and one of them would fly off the handle and attack other kids because he couldn't read their signals. Another kid was fine, once you figured out how to talk to him. I know you don't want us to ban all kids with Aspergers. But you're right, it is a risk having a different kid around. I take a risk every time I go on a campout with the children of other parents. Climbing on rocks, throwing snowballs, starting the whole forest on fire, flying canoes from wind, tornadoes, I've been through plenty. Being prepared is important in mitigating that risk. I appreciate that you wouldn't want a gay kid in your troop. I'm willing to take that risk. I might completely screw up. But if I know that a kid is gay it's going to be a lot easier for me to deal with the risk. I'm willing to take that risk not because I think we should have gay appreciation meetings or any such crap, but because every kid comes from God, and that's why the phrase "love the stranger" is also in the bible.
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MattR, I will respectfully have to disagree with some of your disagreements.
Yes, there is a consistent set of moral rules. See the appendix of C.S. Lewis's book "The Abolition of Man" for examples of the common laws of morality in most every culture and religion, which is part of Natural Law. The details may differ, but the base rules are there. Those rules have always held homosexual behavior to be wrong.
Until quite recently, all major religions agreed that homosexual acts were wrong. Under pressure from secular society, some denominations have changed their beliefs to accommodate an acceptance of homosexual acts (as opposed t0 accepting the sinner and encouraging him or her not to sin). That does not change the basis of morality, anymore than a denomination suddenly discovering, under the influence of a new generation of theologically liberal leadership that any other activity they have taught against for millennia - abortion, or adultery, to use another - may be okay if it is done out of "love" or simply "rights."
At least you accept, from what you wrote, that homosexual behavior is not in accordance with the Bible. No, I don't keep kosher, but then I am not Jewish and am not held under the works of the Mosaic Law. The Bible (the collection of texts that include the Old and New Testaments) quite clearly states that Christians are not bound to keep Jewish dietary laws. Christ and His disciples Peter and Paul both continued to preach against sexual immorality, passing on what they received from Christ as part of the deposit of faith, and the early Church fathers continued to hold the same beliefs on the immorality of homosexual behavior.
Likewise, the Israelites of the Old Testament were allowed to keep slaves, but only as prisoners of war - the Israelites, as nomadic desert people, didn't have prisons, so they were allowed to keep POWs to work for them, under standards that were remarkably compassionate given the standards of the era. You mention that nobody believes it is acceptable to keep people against their will to make them pay off debts anymore, but that is exactly what prison industries do now - prisoners (slaves by any other name) are made to work off their debt to society and their victims. I live not far from the POW camps in Arizona where captured Nazis were made to work in the agricultural fields around Phoenix during WWII. How is what your government did, and does, different from what the Israelites did?
Unjust slavery - slaves who were taken against their will for no crime and no reason other than the profit of the slavetakers - was forbidden by the OT and was forbidden for Jews and later, Christians. The early Christians were not in a position to overthrow the institution of chattel slavery (many were themselves slaves) but the teachings of compassion and the shared humanity of slaves eventually led to the end of the institution with the christianization of Europe. The teachings and actions of the early Church fathers - St. Paul, St. Augustine, St. Nicholas, St. Patrick, among many others - ended the immoral practice. The Church continued to lead the battle against African and New World slave trafficking, and Christians and Jews were the primary leaders of the Abolition movement (even as many of the most prominent atheists and free thinkers of the Enlightenment supported the African slave trade).
Slavery was wrong then, Homosexuality was wrong then, both are wrong now. No, morality doesn't change.
We should love the stranger, as you say, and we should love the sinner, but there is nothing to say we should love the sin. If, as you seem to agree, the behavior itself is wrong, should we accept it and accept that scouts should define themselves by it, or can we say that it is wrong, and advise scouts NOT to do it - to be morally straight?
It's all very well that you are willing to accept boys in your troop who define themselves by their preferred sex acts. I don't think that has a place in scouting. As scouts are involved in things like summer camps, many parents will not be comfortable with their kids going to camps with other troops who may accept kids who are bisexual or homosexual. You can understand that, right? And you can understand that there are many other youth leadership training options for youths who do want to define themselves by an interest in sex with other boys. The BSA is a grand institution, but it's not so important that every boy be a member that we should need to change its traditional standards to accommodate a radical change. Every kid may come from God, but so do all bullies, racists, alcoholics, and drug addicts. We are allowed to discourage that kind of behavior as well.
05-20-2013, 06:38 PMEditing a commentI was just today reading a history of the country I'm in right now. The Jesuits profited by selling slaves to the planters here.Once the new slaves were in the hands of the owners, they turned around and worked to convert those Africans they just sold into slavery to Catholicism. As long as we're talking about chattel slavery for profit...just saying....one more of those delicious ironies.
Got an email over the weekend that says our council is casting all of it's votes in support of the resolution.....
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My nephew, actor Lamman Rucker was in Barbados last week and was the talk of the town. Several local news outlets and blogs noted his arrival. Nationnews.com did a nice write up on him. Check it out. He also did a nice video for Amtrak's Black History month series "My Black Journey." Lamman Rucker's Great […]
In 1947, the same year he married his childhood sweetheart, my Aunt Evelyn, he joined the North Jersey Philharmonic Glee Club, an ensemble of African-American men of every religious affiliation, social station and neighborhood that continues to this day. And he would cherish both of them until he died in 2000.
"Pioneering did not frighten me. I was accustomed to studying and living with white teachers at Spelman and to reaching for high standards in all areas."
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Finding my father's columns has got me thinking a lot about my parents' marriage. To be honest, I always thought my mother had been robbed. She was an independent woman, had a career as a social worker. She'd worked her way through junior college, then through Morgan State – the first in her nuclear family […]


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December 16, 2004
EOIR Announces Latest Disciplinary Actions Under Rules
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One Attorney Immediately Suspended; Four Receive Final Orders
FALLS CHURCH, VA The Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR) has taken disciplinary action against five attorneys after charging them with violations of the Rules of Professional Conduct for immigration practitioners. The Rules appear in Title 8 of the Code of Federal Regulations (8 CFR Parts 1003 and 1292). In most cases, the disciplinary action is initiated as a result of sanctions imposed by other jurisdictions or a criminal conviction.
Although the disciplinary process may vary according to the specific circumstances of each case, generally it includes the following steps:
Disciplinary proceedings begin with a Notice of Intent to Discipline filed with the Board of Immigration Appeals (BIA) by the Office of the General Counsel of either EOIR or the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The BIA requires the attorney to respond to the alleged violations. In some cases, a Petition for Immediate Suspension also is filed and the BIA orders the attorney to be suspended immediately from practice before the Immigration Courts, the BIA, and the DHS. (DHS joins EOIR in taking the disciplinary action.) Disciplined attorneys are directed to notify promptly, in writing, any clients with cases currently pending before the BIA, the Immigration Courts, or the DHS that they may no longer represent clients before these tribunals. Disciplined attorneys must petition and be reinstated by the BIA before they can resume the practice of law before the BIA, the Immigration Courts, and the DHS.
Immediate Suspension
The BIA ordered the immediate suspension of the following attorneys:
Final Orders of Discipline
Adjudicating Officials issued Final Orders of Discipline against the following attorneys:
The BIA issued Final Orders of Discipline against the following attorneys:
The Rules of Professional Conduct include provisions specifying grounds for disciplinary action, requirements for receiving and investigating complaints, and procedures for conducting hearings. The Rules also authorize the BIA to immediately suspend a practitioner who has been subject to disbarment, suspension, or resignation with an admission of misconduct as imposed by a state or Federal court, or who has been convicted of a serious crime, pending a summary proceeding and final sanction. They are available on the EOIR Web site at http://www.justice.gov/eoir/vll/fedreg/2000_2001/fr27jn00R.pdf.
EOIR announces these disciplinary actions to inform the public about practitioners who are not authorized to represent any matter before an immigration tribunal. EOIR also posts a "List of Suspended and Expelled Practitioners" on its Web site at http://www.justice.gov/eoir (near the bottom of EOIR's home page).
Additional information about the Attorney Discipline Program can be found at http://www.justice.gov/eoir/press/00/profcond.htm and http://www.justice.gov/eoir/press/00/profcondfaks.htm on the EOIR Web site.
EOIR is a component of the Department of Justice which, on behalf of the Attorney General, adjudicates cases involving aliens who are charged with immigration violations. EOIR has more than 200 Immigration Judges located in 53 Immigration Courts nationwide to conduct proceedings and decide individual cases, the BIA to hear appeals of Immigration Judge decisions, and the Office of the Chief Administrative Hearing Officer to handle employment‑related immigration matters.
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Results 46 to 57 of 57
April 26th, 2012, 10:56 AM #46
I have read two Harry Potter books. The first one and Order of the Phoenix I think. The one where a woman takes over the school and changes the curriculum. I have seen 6 of the movies, on cable or net download. I didn't go to the theatre for that. I read the first book to compare to the movie and the other to see what Rowling really said regarding education. I consider the movies to be good interpretations of the books. They weren't BAD but not good enough to read either. They just satisfied my curiosity about the Potter phenomenon.
But I consider Andre Norton to be a better story teller than Rowling. I concentrate on the story more than the writing. I can't comprehend how the junk got so big. That much money put into making the Mars Trilogy would be really cool. But then it would be lost at the box office because it is boring. But even Mack Reynolds is better than Andre Norton.
April 26th, 2012, 02:26 PM #47
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Someone else said that it's called SCIENCE Fiction for a reason, and therefore should be expected to have scientifically plausible ideas. Fair enough, and it's refreshing to see some hard SF in an age where space adventures with a disregard for actual science are the norm. But it is also Science FICTION, which is to say that the quality of the story should not be sacrificed in the name of technical description, which is what I felt happened in Red Mars.
For an example of a Hard SF book that strikes a happy medium, I would highly recommend Contact by the late great astrophysicist, Carl Sagan (which is quite different from the movie, which I also like). I'd also recommend the movie Moon.
April 26th, 2012, 02:40 PM #48
Originally Posted by psikeyhacker
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By contrast, I loved reading LOTR but generally speaking found the movies to be too long, over indulgent, and grandiose for my tastes.
Generally speaking, I don't trust adaptations to be a very good gauge as to whether or not I'll like the books.
May 4th, 2012, 04:50 PM #49
I read Red Mars and I was eager to read it, as I had read and liked other Robinson novels, particularly Anartica. I find his writing to be good, usually, maybe not quite at the David Brin, Dan Simmons levels, but definitely above a lot of SF writers. And I like his characters most of the time, and find them interesting, their pov's well done.
In Red Mars, the characters were okay, though as nquixote says they were kind of archetypical. Robinson's attempt to have a sociopathic main character who sets in motion most of the action was kind of interesting, if not always quite pulled off. The writing, though, was several notches down for me from what Robinson has done in other books. It wasn't the time leaps in structure, which was fine, but perhaps because Robinson tries to throw in a lot of anthro psychoanalysis material in there, with contrasting political ideologies, it gets very bogged down, reminding me more and more of the problems in Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
Nonetheless, the reason I was very disappointed in Red Mars, though, was not the writing or the characters but the science and the story. I did not find the science to be particularly good in the book. Some of it was and Robinson had clearly done his research, but the set-up and much that happens in the book seemed highly unlikely to occur. The book doesn't spend that much time on the terraforming -- it's mostly concerned with the political developments, all of which I found to be implausible. As I said earlier in this long thread:
The problem was that a lot of the science seemed quite off to me -- this came up in a conversation we had about big science blunders awhile back -- and the logistics of the mission were completely unrealistic. Ben Bova did slightly better in Mars and Mary Russell did far worse in The Sparrow, but all of these books seem to be riffing off Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, which is an entertaining story that is a mess in terms of realistic world building. Essentially, they keep trying to make it like a colonizing expedition on some spot on Earth would be, except with Mars not having oxygen. In reality, the countries would keep much tighter control of a mission, it would be much more military, and you would not be able to set up hippy dippy utopia colonies like your Wild West frontier pioneers. You certainly wouldn't be able to sneak stuff onboard the spaceships. The progress the mission made on Mars was completely out of whack with how they'd do it, even in the 1990's.
So for me, the story just doesn't end up making a lot of sense. The destructive love triangle is fine, but frankly it just becomes more and more of a surprise that all of these people aren't killed off within a very short span of time. And the Heinlein/Dick/etc. view that all these colonies will rebel against Mother Earth like the U.S. colonists against England -- it is a rather dated view and not very plausible.
So some of the science I liked, some of the situations, the characters, enough perhaps that I might read the rest because I'd like to see more of the terraforming, but it was something of a disappointment for me. I'm more interested in reading some of his other works instead at this point. And I don't think it's really the definitive terra-forming work yet
So I still have not gotten around to continuing with the trilogy. I regard Red Mars as an interesting work conceptually, but very uneven in execution and okay in writing.
Last edited by KatG; May 4th, 2012 at 04:52 PM.
May 4th, 2012, 08:11 PM #50
Yeah, that smuggling Coyote aboard the ship and his only being seen once in the whole trip to Mars was pretty silly.
July 7th, 2012, 01:01 AM #51
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Wow, I must be clueless, because I didn't realize the archetypal nature of the characters (except Arkady) until it was mentioned in this thread!
I myself rather like KSR's long tangents of sociopolitical, anthropological, and psychological profundity, and they help enrich the background behind the plot. Of course I agree with his political leanings so that helps! He did, however, make a very annoying factual error in claiming the Minoans were matriarchal.
July 7th, 2012, 07:05 PM #52
I also wasn't able to finish the book. Once they reached mars, and started focusing more on those two guys fighting over that one broad, it was a wrap for me. To this day I feel guilty for not finishing it. To the author's credit though, the technical descriptions of the terraforming and what have you were great.
August 4th, 2012, 03:38 PM #53
And finally
Blue Mars
2127. The Ross ice shelf has shattered due to volcanic activity and much of Antarctica's ice has fallen into the sea, raising global sea levels by seven metres. Three billion people - a fifth of the human race - have been displaced, triggering the greatest economic and humanitarian crisis in history. With Earth's governments and metanational corporations distracted, the colonists on Mars have launched their second revolution.
The surviving remnants of the First Hundred - whose lives have been extended vastly by genetic treatments - are spearheading the revolution. Their hope is to forge a new relationship with Earth based on mutual respect and understanding, but to the teeming billions of Earth Mars is an escape route, a place to begin again. In the aftermath of revolution, a new way of existence has to be found if the human race is to prosper.
Blue Mars is the third and concluding volume in Kim Stanley Robinson's epic Mars Trilogy, his account of the colonisation and terraforming of Mars extending across almost two centuries of human history. It opens with the Second Martian Revolution in full swing, picking up from the cliffhanger ending of Green Mars. The city of Burroughs has been flooded and most of the UN and metanat forces have been forced to pull back to the city of Sheffield atop Pavonis Mons, where a space elevator links Mars to space. The opening sequence of the book depicts the battle for Sheffield, which is followed by politicking as different factions from both Earth and Mars try to create a peaceful resolution to the crisis.
Blue Mars is similar in general style to the first two books in the sequence, with atmospheric passages on the terraforming of Mars and descriptions of the ever-shifting environment coexisting with lengthy political musings and notable scenes of character development. Robinson focuses the somewhat rambling nature of Green Mars by presenting much of the third book through the viewpoints of two of the First Hundred: Sax Russell, the scientist-genius who made most of the terraforming possible and has been the leading advocate of the 'Green' position (the total terraforming of Mars); and Ann Claybourne, the geologist who has never believed that terraforming was moral and is the leading exponent of the 'Red' viewpoint. By the time of Blue Mars, with the planet's atmosphere mostly breathable and liquid oceans appearing in the north and in the vast Hellas Basin, it appears that Sax has won the argument by default, but Robinson challenges this by showing Sax's dissatisfaction with the process and his growing realisation that something special has been lost with the destruction of the 'old' Mars. Simultaneously, Claybourne realises - belatedly - the value of being able to experience Mars first-hand without the need for spacesuits.
The two viewpoints and their newfound convergence stands as a metaphor for the entire novel. The Martian position that immigration from Earth should be banned before it overwhelms their still-fragile biosphere, and the Terran position that their planet is choking to death on people and as many as possible need to be dumped off-world, likewise need to find common ground to the benefit of all, as do the tendencies of corporate-driven right-wing politics and those of the liberal left. If Blue Mars has a theme it is that compromise, if often unsatisfactory to everyone, is the only way that society can function and move forwards.
This may be stating the obvious, but Robinson nevertheless explores the theme in tremendous depth. The political bias which infested Red Mars is much more moderate here, with Robinson showing that the huge corporations do have some positive roles to play in the future affairs of both planets, although some traces of naivete remain, particularly when a right-on member of the First Hundred wins a debate by making some pithy remarks, awing his political opponents. Those who despise politics may find the novel a little dry for their tastes, but may also enjoy the growing cynicism of the First Hundred, whose lengthy lifespans have allowed them to see the cyclical nature of politics and social movements and grow bored with them.
It's arguable from the second volume that Robinson made a mistake in killing off his most dynamic POV characters in the first novel, with the surviving members of the First Hundred being a little too passive to embrace fully as protagonists. These lingering doubts are removed in this book, with Nadia, Maya, Michel and particularly Sax and Ann working well as our principal characters (with second-generation Nirgal and Art, a liaison with an Earth metanat, also putting in good work as viewpoint characters). Their extended lifespans, which could easily be dismissed as a convenient plot device to save Robinson the complexities of writing a multi-generational storyline, have come at a cost, one that Blue Mars dedicates a lot of its closing chapters to exploring. These long lives also give them a unique perspective on events, ranging from tried cynicism to delight at seeing new generations coming into the world, which Robinson enjoys exploring.
Like its predecessors, Blue Mars is as much a social textbook and a scientific treatise and thought-experiment as it is a novel. There are some dynamic action scenes earlier in the novel, but for most of the book events are slow-paced and descriptive. Robinson is describing the social, scientific, economic, philosophical and even military implications of the terraforming of Mars on a broad base. For those interesting in such matters, Blue Mars is as easy to recommend as its two predecessors. For those interested in a more straightforward, plotted novel with a much tighter focus across a smaller passage of time, Blue Mars is as likely to disappoint as Green Mars before it.
For myself, Blue Mars (****) is an effective conclusion to one of the most ambitious SF projects of all time. Robinson's writing is at its strongest in this novel, as he attempts to fuse hard SF with real literary ambition and comes close to succeeding. The concluding chapters in particular deliver a terrific emotional charge as, after two thousand pages, the story of these flawed people and the world they have transformed finally ends. The novel is available now in the UK and USA.
August 5th, 2012, 07:50 AM #54
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Of the Mars trilogy I found Blue Mars the most unsatisfactory. Why? Because it went onto explore the rest of the Solar System, without, in my humble opinion have the depth of research done that was done for the planet Mars itself.
Why do I say this?
I recently wrote an SF novel on Miranda (5th largest moon circling the planet Uranus), where I did the research and was amazed at how many issues were unexplored. Robinson has a scene on Miranda where it is a designated national park i.e. it had the "developers not welcome here" sign. Even with this limitation, I felt that there was so much scenery that could have been picked on to make it more of a fantastical wondermoon (is there such a word?), that it felt awfully drab when I got to recently rereading that scene.
You may say that Robinson had the excuse that he couldn't know any better... um... no... Voyager 2 passed by Uranus in 1986 taking those photos of the strange coronae long before he wrote that scene. So he had as much information for his scene as I had for my (as yet unpublished) novel.
I know this is only one example scene from Blue Mars, but given that the writing voice does not noticeably change, I have my suspicions about the other places he visits in Blue Mars failing in a similar manner.
Having said all that, it's still a good book to read - just not up there amongst the best in my view.
August 8th, 2012, 12:29 PM #55
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A plot device that bothered me was the genetic enhancement drug that allowed all the main characters to live thrrough hundreds of years of Mars' development. It struck me as deus ex machina. Robinson wanted to explore a couple centuries of life on Mars but didn't want to lose his main characters. Presto! Wonder drug. Besides the overpopulation problems this would eventually cause (which I suppose they try to explain via cost keeping down availability) it might have been more interesting to see an inter-generational narrative similar to One Hundred Years of Solitude.
A minor gripe in the scheme of things. There are other areas of this trilogy that hamper it as a story, which have been covered in this thread and which I won't rehash. But if nothing else, you certainly have to appreciate the ambition and scope of Robinson's work.
August 9th, 2012, 10:14 AM #56
August 9th, 2012, 06:42 PM #57A plot device that bothered me was the genetic enhancement drug that allowed all the main characters to live thrrough hundreds of years of Mars' development. It struck me as deus ex machina. Robinson wanted to explore a couple centuries of life on Mars but didn't want to lose his main characters. Presto! Wonder drug. Besides the overpopulation problems this would eventually cause (which I suppose they try to explain via cost keeping down availability) it might have been more interesting to see an inter-generational narrative similar to One Hundred Years of Solitude.
It may have been done for convenience, but I think Robinson also took the subject seriously and made it plausible.


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Refreshments: Coffee and Tea will be provided each morning and a working lunch will be provided on both days. Unfortunately, we are unable to offer snacks at break or breakfast foods due to restrictions imposed by our funding agency, so please plan accordingly.
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The Citizen-Centered Leadership Development Community of Practice series is a unique combination of self-paced distance learning study, robust field work, interactive class assignments and live webcast instruction designed to advance theoretic and skill-based learning leading to quality outcomes in the lives of people with disabilities.
This detailed discussion will cover the history of SSA involvement in work incentives and return to work efforts. What is the Ticket to Work and how does it function in the return to work setting? Using a Power Point, lecture and written materials the participant will gain and understanding of this important work incentive and the extensive services and protections that it can provide to individual with disabilities. Online polling will be used to test participant knowledge. A preparatory reading assignment will be provided and is required.
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text:
Lie Down in the Darkness, Rise up from the Ash
12. The Forest for the Trees
Nightfall found the forest silent – silent, and chill, save where two figures huddled about a little flame.
"It will be a cold night with so feeble a flame!" Aragorn glanced up at that muttered complaint, and he shook his head at the obvious suggestion contained therein.
"No colder than others we have passed without light at all. The answer is still 'no,'" the Ranger countered, and wisely did not smile at the glower the Dwarf turned on him. From the moment they had arrived in Fangorn, the age-old dwarven prejudice against woodlands had reared its head, and the other's agitation would have been amusing but that Aragorn, too, was aware of a knot of dread in the pit of his stomach. He knew not precisely whence it came, but having survived the wilds of Eriador, Gondor, and Harad, he was not about to dismiss that feeling out of hand.
And I have heard too many strange tales of this forest for my peace of mind, he admitted. Were it not for Celeborn's words at their parting from Lórien, perhaps he might have given them less credence, but Aragorn could never doubt what he felt now: There is something disquieting about Fangorn, though I know not what!
That was why he had forbidden the Dwarf to set his axe to any tree, and insisted upon the laborious and occasionally disgusting task of collecting fuel from the charnel fires of the Rohirrim. Gimli had grumbled against the restriction quite vocally—indeed, though they sat now before a fire, the Dwarf would, ever and anon, 'suggest' that they seek more abundant fuel for the night—but the Ranger paid such complaints little heed and refused to let them needle him, knowing full well the reasons for the other's black discontent. Since their parting with Legolas and Éomer, the Dwarf's temper had been grim indeed, which tended to make for an uneasy companionship. But Aragorn had known enough Dwarves to recognize the signs of one deeply worried on a friend's behalf, and so he was willing to accept at least some of the other's censure for his own part in the breaking of their trio.
In truth, however, Legolas's offer, once made, could hardly have been overruled; it certainly could not have been retracted. That still would not have kept Aragorn from intervening, if only to warn, had he had less faith in Éomer and the Rohirrim, but there had been also in Legolas's voice a sense of relief and need beneath his determination that had stilled what cautions he might have made.
He needed to feel useful—to regain his balance, in all senses of the word. Well do I know that feeling, Aragorn thought, heaving an inward sigh. Every Ranger who walked the Wild came eventually to a moment and a place where his will to continue in what seemed a hopeless task was tested, and the worst testing came sometimes in strange guises. Some survived such; others did not. Aragorn was of two minds as to his own moment in Moria of late, for not since Morgoth's day, perhaps, had the Free Peoples of Middle-earth faced so terrible a fate and trial as this broken Song. May you find in your captivity purpose enough to see you healed in body and mind, my friend, he wished Legolas, therefore.
A creak, as of wood shifting, instantly drew the Ranger's attention from absent friends to the surrounding trees, and Gimli, too, glanced about uneasily, scowling. But there came no further alarm, and Dwarf and Man relaxed slightly.
"You have been among these horse lords, Aragorn," Gimli said suddenly in a low voice. "Tell me, did Éomer speak true, that the Rohirrim do not harm their captives?"
"Legolas has the least to fear of the three of us," Aragorn said, frankly. "For his presence will be read as submission to the law of the land, as well as the guarantor of our honesty. But in any case, the Rohirrim are not cruel captors. They will hold him unharmed in Edoras, unless he harms one of the king's subjects, or we do ourselves."
Gimli grunted. "Such fine-honed points of honor!" he growled. "Can you be certain that they remain unblunted after so long an absence on your part and so hard a year on theirs?"
"All things change in Middle-earth," Aragorn admitted. "Still, I cannot see the Rohirrim allowing so old a custom to fade all in a day. It has been long since I rode with them, but I have passed through Rohan several times, and most recently just ere September of last year. Times were hard and fear was rampant, but other, less venerable tradition still lived, so I would guess that this one does as well. All of which aside, Éomer seems to me honest: I do not believe he would lie, even to save himself, and that does not surprise me, given his father."
"Hmmph!" Gimli snorted, but ere he could answer, there came again a rustling, scraping noise, as of something large and unwary moving, sounded just then, and Aragorn looked sharply left, hand going swiftly to the hilt of Andúril. For the sound continued on, and for some moments, then fell suddenly silent. On edge, the Ranger continued to gaze intently into the deep shadows, but he could see nothing and even his quick ears heard naught but the usual night sounds of a forest. Still suspicious but unable to find any immediate cause for his own alarm, he turned slowly back to the fire, and to Gimli, who relaxed only when Aragorn did.
"Cursed trees!" the Dwarf muttered. "I shall never understand what that Elf sees in them." A pause, followed by: "Why did he do it, Aragorn?" "I know not what put it into his head, but Legolas spoke truly: we had no choice, for Éomer had none."
"And you trust Éomer because you knew his father?"
"Even though the son has done naught to earn that trust?"
"Perhaps I should have said, I trust that Éomund's example and teaching were not wasted. Beyond that, Éomer is the cousin of Théodred, the king's only son, and all that I know and have heard tell of the heir to Rohan's throne tells me that he would not befriend one unworthy of friendship."
"But all of this is hear-say," Gimli said through clenched teeth.
"As was the story of Gandalf, and that of Frodo, Bilbo, Legolas, Elrond, Boromir and your father at the council," Aragorn countered, raising his brows. "At some point, one must yield to one's own judgment in matters of trust and belief. I–"
A crackle, a harsh caw and the sound of madly flapping wings, as of a flight of doves or crows startled from cover broke out, and this time Aragorn did stand, advancing a few paces toward the trees with Andúril drawn and ready in his hand.
Gimli marked where the Ranger's left hand strayed, toward the small of his back where another blade was strapped, and he reached for his axe. But an eerie feeling crept over him as his fingers touched the wood, and of a sudden, the Dwarf felt irresistibly warned against the notion of taking his weapon to hand. He knew not why, for it was hardly a reasonable feeling when danger seemed to threaten, but he obeyed the impulse, waiting until Aragorn, once again frustrated by the opaque darkness, returned to the flame-lit circle and seated himself.
"Think you that this will continue all night?" he asked, unhappily.
"I know not," Aragorn replied, setting Andúril down unsheathed at his side. "Fangorn is a strange place whose secrets are untold. Once, forests such as this stretched the length of Eriador, and Elves and Men likely knew quite well what perils and wonders they contained. But in these days of forgetfulness, who can say what lies at the heart of Fangorn? Even Celeborn knows not, and he wandered the forests of Beleriand ere that land was broken and drowned."
"Some things are not meant to be known, perhaps," Gimli mused darkly, eyes flicking to the looming trees on either side. "Perhaps not." Dwarf and Man fell silent, listening to the sigh of the wind in the tree tops, and the occasional hoot of an owl. Hasufel snorted and swished his long tail, seeming alert but as yet unafraid, which Aragorn counted a good sign. The steeds of Rohan were bred for endurance but also for intelligence, and they were aware of many things that a Man might miss. So long as the great war-horse remained calm, likely there was little to be concerned about.
But horses do not count the unknown as dangerous, the Ranger mused. And whether Gimli speaks truly or not, there are some things I would prefer never to know…
"Cursed trees," Gimli muttered then. A pause, then: "Though the orcs lie dead, something in this forest likes us not. Aragorn, how for Legolas if we cannot come to Edoras, as we promised?"
Aragorn, who had been avoiding that point, in light of his companion's mood, hoping to be gone and well on the way to the court of the king ere the question could be raised, was careful not to let dismay show. He was therefore quick enough to answer, and as circumspect as he dared:
"When I served, a hostage who gave no offense and did no harm would be kept. He might have been ransomed him to his father, even, if his compatriots did not reclaim him, and no harm came to any of the Éorlingas by their hands."
Gimli stared at him a moment, ere he shook his head and growled: "A fine, Rangerly walkabout! What of today, Aragorn? What will they do if this damnable forest takes us?"
So for circumspection! 'Twas an ill-fated endeavor, no doubt, Aragorn told himself, but sighed inwardly. Dwarves I have known, and I know them to be a tenacious folk, but if ever I thought to see one so troubled over the fate of an Elf, then let lightning strike! Forced to it, he admitted honestly:
"I do not know." Gimli cursed softly under his breath. "He is well enough tonight," the Ranger continued, seeking to calm the other.
"And tomorrow?"
"Tomorrow will tell. Gimli – "
"He's ransoming us! While I've breath in me, I will not fail to honor such a pledge, but in this place, who can guarantee that either of us will see daylight, or come again from these eaves?" Gimli looked up at the trees pressed close about, and shuddered, ere pinioning Aragorn with a dark and wrathful eye. "Something there is here that would drink the very life out of us. I do not fear death, but confound it, there is no peace in it since the daft Elf has put himself at the mercy of these Riders!"
Aragorn raised a brow at that. "Peace in death is a rare gift in this world—will you hold Legolas to answer if it comes not to you?"
"He should not have done it. We should not have let him do it!"
"We have covered this ground before: there was no choice. What would you have done? Won all of our deaths on the spears of the Rohirrim, and perhaps Merry's and Pippin's as well?" Aragorn demanded, and pressed on in the face of mounting dwarven anger to argue: "Moreover, you know he suffered, that he was not the equal of the hunt. That had he come here with us, he would have been more a hindrance than a help—mayhap even a danger, if indeed whatever moves in this night wishes us ill. Why, then, contest him?"
"I would have my eye upon him."
"Then you should have stayed with him," Aragorn said bluntly, dispensing with tact to add, ere Gimli could find words or blows to answer with: "But instead you honored his judgment, and for that, Merry and Pippin may yet be grateful. Be content! Or," he said, on sudden impulse, "if you find his wisdom still lacking when we come to Edoras, then claim your satisfaction for his having followed it and relieve him of whatever limb best pleases!"
There followed a long silence, as Gimli stared at him, apparently having lost his tongue, and Aragorn gazed back in resolute challenge, wondering which way matters would tip now.
But just when he had begun to fear that he might have misjudged his answer, Gimli began to laugh–a deep, basso chuckle that grew to such proportions that the Dwarf's whole frame shook with it. "Dúrin's… beard…! Relieve him... of what pleases! Hoya!" he gasped helplessly, and Aragorn, watching, had to bite his lip against sympathetic reaction, for though well-versed in methods for bolstering flagging spirits, he had not anticipated that a barbed jibe born of an instant's desperation would have such a… dramatic… effect. Likely it was but the sudden release of tension built over days—weeks, rather!—of hard and fear-filled travel, but still, it was welcome. At length, Gimli managed to contain himself and drew a deep, steadying breath. "Relieve him of whatever best pleases," he repeated, laughter still in his voice, and concluded, "Aye, that would be just!" He shook his head and snorted, which caused Hasufel to prick up his ears as if in appreciation. Possessed once more of himself, Gimli said then: "Your pardon, Aragorn, for my temper is not for you, but for this—" a gesture that encompassed at once the forest and, beyond that, the death throes of the Third Age "—and our own helplessness before it." "I know, else I would have spoken sooner," Aragorn answered, with a real if weary smile. "And given that my temper is only little better than yours, I fear my words would have been harsh!" Gimli sobered instantly, peering closely at the Man who sat across from him, and after a moment, he said, "No doubt. A long and hard hunt you have led these past days, my friend. Why do you not rest?" And since, despite his mistrust of the woods, that suggestion seemed the best he had heard in days, Aragorn answered: "If you will take the first watch, I shall not waste the time." "Then sleep! Laughter restores the soul, and even the body somewhat. A few hours of guard duty shall not seem such a chore now," Gimli said, standing and stretching ere he tugged his hood up against the cold. "Thank you," the Ranger sighed softly, and indeed, wasted no time at all. Within a few minutes, he slept soundly.
Gimli gazed down at the other for a time, considering this stranger who had come to assume such a large place in his life, and who yet remained something of an enigma.
There are times when I think him too elvish for his own good, and others when I marvel at him for what I suppose must be Boromir's elusive 'humanity,' the Dwarf thought. Today, I have seen him as a king uncrowned who yet has a power over any other that I have known, but never did I think that he had enough dwarven blood in him to make me laugh so. Shaking his head, Gimli turned to face the woods, as unease sank its teeth once more into him.
What manner of creature lurks beyond the firelight? he wondered. The strange noises that had disrupted their conversation thrice now were unlike any that he was accustomed to hear in a natural setting. Short of a lightning storm, or the pines that burst upon the heights of Erebor in the depths of winter, that is, he reflected, musing on the matter. But it is not so cold as that, and there is not a cloud in the sky.
With a glower and feeling uncomfortably vulnerable in the darkness, Gimli kicked another wood chip into the fire and watched the flames lick higher. Andúril gleamed bright, seeming made of flame itself as it reflected the ruddy light, and that stark reminder of their danger pulled the Dwarf's thoughts back to his odd unwillingness to handle his axe.
What stopped me at that moment? And why? he wondered. If something were to approach, would I be able to protect us both? No sooner had he thought it than he dismissed the doubt. Of course he would, for it was ridiculous to think that he would permit any harm to come to either himself or Aragorn based on some vague fear of his own weapon. And it is quiet now. Perhaps it was nothing…?
But 'nothing' rarely caused in a Ranger the almost skittish distrust that Aragorn had shown earlier, and Gimli drummed his fingers on his wide belt, pacing to take the edge off of his unease. Minutes slipped by, and if anything menacing roamed in the darkness, it gave no sign of its presence as the stars spun out their course overhead. Indeed, Gimli began to relax somewhat, to think that it was his own fearful concern for Legolas and weariness that made of present apprehensions more than they were.
Which was why he almost missed it when it appeared. Behind him, Hasufel nickered softly, attracting his attention, and stamped, shaking his great head, ears twitching. Unfamiliar with the language of horses, Gimli eyed the beast skeptically, wondering what that meant, when movement caught his eye. Turning sharply to his left, he stared at the shadows, which seemed somehow to have grown thicker. Thicker… and the air was stiflingly heavy of a sudden, laden with must and earth it seemed. Still, the Dwarf frowned, for he saw naught… "Tûrg Mahalu!" Gimli hissed, forgetting himself, but only for an instant. Then: "Aragorn!" In a flurry of motion, the Ranger roused, reflexively grasping the hilt of his sword as he sprang to his feet. But then he stilled, gazing about with wide wonder and no small alarm. For all about them the woods groaned and creaked, and though the darkness seemed to dim even their fire, still, he could see huge shapes moving in the shadows. Tall as trolls, and taller, even, they seemed to sway and glide through the night.
Aragorn felt a shiver run down his back, struck by the feeling of unseen eyes watching him. Hasufel's frightened whinnies echoed in his ears, yet had no power to stir him in the face of this migration of who knew what creatures. How long the two of them stood there, watching in mute awe and fear, neither knew. But when at last the sounds faded into the distance and the air seemed to clear a bit, Aragorn pressed his left hand over his eyes, struggling to accept what he had seen—whatever it might have been!—and wishing vainly that his thoughts did not feel quite so muddled by fatigue. Hasufel's complaints eventually roused him, and he sheathed Andúril and went over to where the horse stood. Speaking soothing Rohirric in a low voice, he stroked the animal's neck and glanced over at Gimli, who was shaking his head in disbelief.
"What was it, do you think?" the Dwarf asked, hoarsely. "I cannot hazard even a guess," Aragorn confessed, and sighed softly. "One thing is certain, I shall sleep no more tonight!" "Nor I," Gimli declared. "A plague upon this accursed place!" he muttered, tossing another bough onto the fire for good measure. Then he sat down before the tree, where Aragorn had been earlier, so that he could at least feel that he had something solid at his back as he watched the darkness. Once Hasufel had calmed—due in no small part to the encouragement of the few carrots that Aragorn had unearthed in the horse's saddlebags—the Ranger settled at his companion's side. The shade grew deep, but though naught else disturbed the night, they watched the forest and did not sleep.
Morning sun kissed a hobbit's cheek, and Meriadoc Brandybuck stirred, tensing. Opening his eyes to mere slits, he searched his surroundings, expecting to see naught but Orcs. But instead, he saw the walls of a cave, and heard the rush and bubble of a stream, and there were no other creatures about. Unless it were a hobbit, for beside him lay Pippin, still curled up asleep and snoring faintly.
Wellinghall! Merry thought, and let out a sigh of relief as he sat up. Yesterday, they had still been among the Orcs, and he had difficulty accepting that he was free now, such was the power and horror of that memory. The hours of running had dragged on and on, 'til Merry had grown numb—numb to pain, numb to exhaustion, and he had moved only because if ever he stopped, he knew not whether he was alive or dead. When the riders had surrounded the Orcs in the forest, Merry had been beyond caring, almost, and but for the noise and clamor, he would have missed the battle entirely. As it was, we almost smothered, Pippin and I, Merry recalled. For one of their captors had been cut down by an arrow, and his body had fallen upon the two of them, shielding them from hooves and swords and such like, but also threatening to crush the breath from them. And I shouldn't have liked to die coughing bits of filthy orc hair. I think that, more than anything, let me wriggle out from under the brute, bound as I was!
He and Pippin had managed to writhe their awkward way into some bushes, where they had, against all odds, fallen asleep while the battle raged, and the Rohirrim had performed their funeral rites. When they had awakened, the battleground had been quite silent, and the scent of burnt bodies had filled the air as the two hobbits had once more wormed their way forward, seeking now a weapon with which to cut their bonds.
As hunts went, Merry had known better, and he shivered slightly at the memory. What a sight that was, that little space in the woods! I wish I could forget it! Granted, it had been somewhat gratifying to see Uglúk's head on a pole, but Merry decided he could have lived out his days peacefully without ever having seen the body of any living creature displayed in pieces for his appraisal. "Just keep moving," Pippin had encouraged him when Merry's wriggling efforts had ceased in horror. "Never mind the scenery, and don't think of what we're lying on, just keep going!"
And so they had slithered and inched their way forward, groping for freedom. They never had found that blade—their bonds had been too tight, the weapons of their enemies too far distant, but in the end, it had not mattered. For just as the hobbits had reached the point of desperation, a sound like a deep horn had startled them, and the most extraordinary creature had appeared upon the field:
"Hoom… what have we here? Two snakes? Two worms? What indeed?" A large, splay fingered hand had scooped each of the hobbits up and held them, amazed, before the face of a great, tree-like creature. Which was how they had eventually come to be striding through the forest, resting upon the shoulders of the strange being, who had called himself "Treebeard" and promised them shelter at someplace called "Wellinghall"... "And now we are here!" Merry said aloud, marveling at the fact. Beside him, a snort issued forth. "So we are, but must you announce it to the world? Some of us were sleeping," Pippin yawned as he woke, and then smiled to show that he meant naught by his complaints. "Good morning, cousin! Did you sleep well?" "Better than I have in a long while, thank you," Merry replied. "An Ent's hall is better than an orc's camp any day!" Both hobbits were silent awhile, gripped once more by the dread of those awful days on the march. And Merry looked about at the trees, trees everwhere, as far as he could see, and wondered aloud: "Do you think that we shall be able to find a way across Rohan to… to wherever it is that we must go?" "Who knows? Treebeard might help us there," Pippin replied. "But honestly, I don't know what we shall do next." "I just hope that the others are all right," Merry said somewhat anxiously. "Me too," Pippin said, hesitating ere he sighed and added, "Probably, though, they're dead. You saw all of those orcs! How could anyone escape them? We shall have to look to do our part without them, I suppose… whatever 'our part' might be, now that Frodo and Sam are gone too! I don't know whether it will amount to anything in the end, but I suppose we must try, if only to honor their memory." And Merry, listening to his friend's gloomy words, cocked his head at him, scrutinizing the other's face intently. "You have changed, Pippin, you know that?" "Well, so have you!" Pippin replied, looking away uncomfortably. "We all have, but you… it's different with you," Merry insisted. "You've grown… sterner, I would say. More gloomy at times, and more thoughtful." He paused, then said, "I think it suits you in a way. Even if I could do without your saying that Strider and the lot of them are dead now!" "I guess I've seen a few things since Moria, that is all," said the other with a tiny shrug. "That doesn't leave much room for jokes and the like. I don't know, Merry, whether I shall ever laugh the way I once did!" He shook his head, then looked up determinedly. "Well, let's not dwell on it. Let's see a bit more of this place!" With that, the hobbits scrambled off of the great table on which they had slept and poked about the grounds of Wellinghall. There were few wrought-items—none, in fact, save the jars of water and a ladle and cups—but somehow, that seemed to fit perfectly, and the hobbits felt themselves quite at home in fact. After so many days without a roof over their heads, perhaps almost anything would have done, but there was something comfortable about Treebeard's home.
As if it was made for him, and he for it, Merry thought. Like hobbits to a hobbit hole! He and Pippin were watching a caterpillar work its way up the stem of a long shoot at the base of a tree when a great hou-um! sounded, announcing the arrival the old Ent. Treebeard strode up with a speed that struck Merry as remarkably out of place in a creature whose motto was "Don't be hasty!" But the Ent seemed in good enough humor. "Well, my fine fellows, I see you are awake at last! Did you sleep long?" "Yes, and quite well, thank you," Merry replied. "And you, Treebeard? Have you been gone for long?" "Hmmm… no, not for long. Not, that is, for an Ent. Even a century is hardly long to us!" Treebeard replied, going to one of the jars and dipping himself some water. "But perhaps to you folk, it would seem long, for I have been up and about since before the sun rose, for I had much to think about and to do." "Where did you go, then?" Pippin asked, breaking out a wafer of waybread that, miraculously, had not been crushed. "Back to the battlefield where I found you, for I wished to think, and to think about dark things, and for that I often need… hmmm… encouragement. Is that the word? It is best to see what one thinks of, in any case. But I left not long after you fell asleep, and well that I did, for it is much work to summon an entmoot." "An entmoot? What is that?" Merry asked, frowning. "A gathering of Ents, no more and no less. Such a thing has not happened in recent years, for we seldom have reason to come together like that. We shepherds have our own flocks and our own concerns to tend to, we do. And some may not leave their charges, for that is not safe. Huorns are not always good, and they are wild, often. Indeed, it was difficult to keep them in check last night, and I fear that were it not for my presence, and that of Bregalad, they might have harmed the strangers." "Strangers? What strangers? Where?" Pippin asked. For though Fangorn forest was vast and marvelous, he could not quite imagine anyone wanting to come there purely for pleasure. "I do not know, for they were not my concern. Some kind of Men, they seemed to me, and no threat. No, I paid them but little heed, for it is Isengard and Saruman that concern me now. I have seen his creatures of late, and I know well their sign: white hand and black field. All the… the…that which you smaller folk bear for protection against blows, which is round, often… or not… hide and wood and metal…." "Shield?" Merry suggested after a moment. "Ah, yes! Shield, that it is. Yes, the shields that were left behind have all that same mark." "Really?" Pippin perked up at this. "I thought the Mordor orcs had disappeared, but I couldn't really be sure. So it was only the Isengarders who faced the Riders!" "But what does that mean?" Merry asked, and got a shrug for an answer. "That the Mordor orcs didn't fancy following old Uglúk down to ruin? I don't know, but it strikes me as odd, that's all. I'd have thought that orcs, being such contentious folk, wouldn't pass on a fight if there was any chance of winning it." "Maybe they figured they couldn't win, then," Merry replied. "Rude of them, not to share that thought. I would've liked to have been told, so I wouldn't have worried so much about our eventual emancipation!" "Well, that is a mystery for another time," Treebeard said. "In the meantime, we shall have to do something about these Isengarders. They have troubled us more than once before, and laid waste to trees in many places. Wanton, hateful, axe-bearing, blood-scented… um… well, you understand. Horrible creatures that they are, we shall not stand for it. Something must be done! And so tomorrow, we shall away to the entmoot, and put to the others the fate of Orthanc!" In that ringing declaration burned a century's worth of slow-built wrath, and the hobbits glanced at each other in some alarm and no little awe.
Whatever it is that Treebeard plans, I should not want to be in Orthanc when he sets the wheels turning, Merry thought with a slight shiver. But I have a feeling that I'll be there in any case, for all the good that I'll be. I'm sure it will be a great… something… but I feel as though I could do without greatness of any sort. I'd give anything to go home and sit before the river and let the day just wear away! But I'll not see the Shire again….
Thought ground then to an awkward halt, and Merry frowned. He had been thinking that it would be long ere he returned home, but his thoughts seemed to have bent somehow, and he wondered at the horrible finality to that last idea. Surely not never… only for a long while. I must be catching Pippin's mood of late! Or else I'm still in an… orcish… frame of mind, I suppose. Yes, that's it. That's surely it… ! But doubt had settled on his heart, and bury it deep though he might, he could not forget it.
Tûrg Mahalu: An attempted bit of Dwarvish, "Mahal's (Aulë's) beard!" Seemed appropriate. ;-) I love Ardalambion!
This is a work of fan fiction, written because the author has an abiding love for the works of J R R Tolkien. The characters, settings, places, and languages used in this work are the property of the Tolkien Estate, Tolkien Enterprises, and possibly New Line Cinema, except for certain original characters who belong to the author of the said work. The author will not receive any money or other remuneration for presenting the work on this archive site. The work is the intellectual property of the author, is available solely for the enjoyment of Henneth Annûn Story Archive readers, and may not be copied or redistributed by any means without the explicit written consent of the author.