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2008-03-20 13:35:33
Pan American Sanitary Code (22.89 kB)
The code was signed in Havana, Cuba, on 14 November 1924, at the VII Pan American Sanitary Conference and ratified by the Governments of the twenty-one American Republics (see Appendix I). The Code was amended by the Additional Protocol to the Pan American Sanitary Code (1952), to abrogate Articles 2, 9, 10, 11, 16 to 53 inclusive, 61, and 62, which were extracted in full infra. For a complete text of the Code, please refer to Publication 193 of the Pan American Sanitary Bureau (March 1943).
Objects of the Code and Definitions of Terms Used Therein
Article 1. The objects of this code are:(a) The prevention of the international spread of communicable infections of human beings.(b) The promotion of cooperative measures for the prevention of the introduction and spread of disease into and from the territories of the Signatory Governments.(c) The standardization of the collection of morbidity and mortality statistics by the Signatory Governments.(d) The stimulation of the mutual interchange of information which may be of value in improving public health and combating the diseases of man.(e) The standardization of the measures employed at places of entry, for the prevention of the introduction and spread of the communicable diseases of man, so that greater protection against them shall be achieved and unnecessary hindrance to international commerce and communication eliminated.
Article 3. Each of the Signatory Governments agrees to transmit to each of the other Signatory Governments and to the Pan American Sanitary Bureau, at intervals of not more than two weeks, a statement containing information as to the state of its public health, particularly that of its ports.The following diseases are obligatorily reportable:Plague, cholera, yellow fever, smallpox, typhus, epidemic cerebrospinal meningitis, acute epidemic poliomyelitis, epidemic lethargic encephalitis, influenza or epidemic la grippe, typhoid and paratyphoid fevers, and such other diseases as the Pan American Sanitary Bureau may, by resolution, add to the above list.
Article 4. Each Signatory Government agrees to notify adjacent countries and the Pan American Sanitary Bureau immediately by the most rapid available means of communication, of the appearance in its territory of an authentic or officially suspected case or cases of plague, cholera, yellow fever, smallpox, typhus, or any other dangerous contagion liable to spread through the intermediary agency of international commerce.
Article 5. This notification is to be accompanied, or very promptly followed, by the following additional information:1. The area where the disease has appeared.2. The date of its appearance, its origin, and its form.3. The probable source or country from which it was introduced and the manner of introduction.4. The number of confirmed cases and number of deaths.5. The number of suspected cases and deaths.6. In addition, for plague, the existence among rodents of plague, or of an unusual mortality among rodents; for yellow fever, the Aedes aegypti index of the locality.7. The measures which have been applied for the prevention of the spread of the disease and its eradication.
Article 6. The notification and information prescribed in Articles 4 and 5 are to be addressed to diplomatic or consular representatives in the capital of the infected country, and to the Pan American Sanitary Bureau in Washington, which shall immediately transmit the information to all countries concerned.
Article 7. The notification and the information prescribed in Articles 3, 4, 5, and 6 are to be followed by further communications in order to keep other Governments informed as to the progress of the disease or diseases. These communications will be made at least once weekly, and will be as complete as possible, indicating in detail the measures employed to prevent the extension of the disease. The telegraph, cable, and radio will be employed for this purpose, except in those stances in which the data may be transmitted rapidly by mail. Reports by telegraph, cable, or radio will be confirmed by letter. Neighboring countries will endeavor to make special arrangements for the solution of local problems that do not involve widespread international interest.
Article 8. The Signatory Governments agree that in the event of the appearance of any of the following diseases, namely, cholera, yellow fever, plague, typhus fever, or other pestilential diseases in severe epidemic form in their territory, they will immediately put in force appropriate sanitary measures for the prevention of the international carriage of any of the said diseases therefrom by passengers, crew, cargo, and vessels, and mosquitoes, rats, and vermin that may be carried thereon, and will promptly notify each of the other Signatory Governments and the Pan American Sanitary Bureau as to the nature and extent of the sanitary measures which they have applied for the accomplishment of the requirements of this article.
Article 12. The International Classification of the Causes of Death is adopted as the Pan American Classification of the Causes of Death, and shall be used by the signatory nations in the interchange of mortality and morbidity reports.
Article 13. The Pan American Sanitary Bureau is hereby authorized and directed to republish from time to time the Pan American Classification of the Causes of Death.
Article 14. Each of the Signatory Governments agrees to put in operation, at the earliest practical date, a system for the collection and tabulation of vital statistics which shall include:1. A central statistical office presided over by a competent official.2. The establishment of regional statistical offices.3. The enactment of laws, decrees, or regulations requiring the prompt reporting of births, deaths, and communicable diseases, by health officers, physicians, midwives, and hospitals, and providing penalties for failure to make such reports.
Article 15. The Pan American Sanitary Bureau shall prepare and publish standard forms for the reporting of deaths and cases of communicable disease and all other vital statistics.
The Pan American Sanitary Bureau: Functions and Duties
Article 54. The organization, functions, and duties of the Pan American Sanitary Bureau shall include those heretofore determined for the International Sanitary Bureau by the various international sanitary and other conferences of American Republics, and such additional administrative function and duties as may be hereafter determined by Pan American Sanitary Conferences.
Article 55. The Pan American Sanitary Bureau shall be the central coordinating sanitary agency of the various member republics of the Pan American Union, and the general collection and distribution center of sanitary information to and from said republics. For this purpose it shall, from time to time, designate representatives to visit and confer with the sanitary authorities of the various Signatory Governments on public health matters, and such repesentatives shall be given all available sanitary information in the countries visited by them in the course of their official visits and conferences.
Article 56. In addition, the Pan American Sanitary Bureau shall perform the following specific functions:To supply to the sanitary authorities of the Signatory Governments through its publications, or in other appropriate manner, all available information relative to the actual status of the communicable diseases of man, new invasions of such diseases, the sanitary measures undertaken, and the progress effected in the control or eradication of such diseases; new methods for combating disease; morbidity and mortality statistics; public health organization and administration; progress in any of the branches of preventive medicine; and other pertinent information relative to sanitation and public health in any of its phases, including a bibliography of books and periodicals on public hygiene.In order to more efficiently discharge its functions, it may undertake cooperative epidemiological and other studies; may employ, at headquarters and elsewhere, experts for this purpose; may stimulate and facilitate scientific research and the practical application of the results therefrom; and may accept gifts, benefactions, and bequests, which shall be accounted for in the manner now provided for the maintenance funds of the Bureau.
Article 57. The Pan American Sanitary Bureau shall advise and consult with the sanitary authorities of the various Signatory Commissions relative to public health problems, and the manner of interpreting and applying the provisions of this Code.
Article 58. Officials of the National Health Services may be designated as representatives, ex-officio, of the Pan American Sanitary Bureau, in addition to their regular duties, and when so designated they may be empowered to act as sanitary representatives of one or more of the Signatory Governments when properly designated and accredited to so serve.
Article 59. Upon request of the sanitary authorities of any of the Signatory Governments, the Pan American Sanitary Bureau is authorized to take the necessary preparatory steps to bring about an exchange of professors, medical and health officers, experts or advisers in public health of any of the sanitary sciences, for the purpose of mutual aid and advancement in the protection of the public health of the Signatory Governments.
Article 60. For the purpose of discharging the functions and duties imposed upon the Pan American Sanitary Bureau, a fund of not less than $50,000 shall be collected by the Pan American Union, apportioned among the Signatory Governments on the same basis as are the expenses of the Pan American Union.
Existing Treaties
Be it understood that this Code does not in any way abrogate or impair the validity or force of any existing treaty, convention, or agreement between any of the Signatory Governments and any other Government.
Transitory Disposition
Article 63. The Governments which may not have signed the present Convention are to be admitted to adherence thereto upon demand, notice of this adherence to be given through diplomatic channels to the Government of the Republic of Cuba.Made and signed in the city of Havana, on the 14th day of the month of November, 1924, in two copies, in English and Spanish, respectively, which shall be deposited with the Department of Foreign Relations of the Republic of Cuba, in order that certified copies thereof, in both English and Spanish, may be made for transmission through diplomatic channels to each of the Signatory Governments.
Approved ad referendum by the VIII Pan American Sanitary Conference, held at Lima, Peru, from 12 to 20 October 1927.
The ratifications of the Pan American Sanitary Code shall be deposited in the office of the Secretary of State of the Republic of Cuba and the Cuban Government shall communicate these ratifications to the other Signatory States, which communication shall constitute exchange or ratifications. The convention shall become effective in each of the Signatory States on the date of ratification thereof by said State, and shall remain in force without limitation of time, each one of the Signatory States or Adherent States reserving the right to withdraw from the convention by giving in due form a year's notice in advance to the Government of the Republic of Cuba.
Adopted Resolution XLVI by the Directing Council at its VI Meeting held in Havana, Cuba, from 15–24 September 1952.
The Representatives of the Governments Signatories to the Pan American Sanitary Code, being duly authorized by virtue of the full powers which have been accorded to them and which have been found to be in good and due form, sign the present Protocol, in the name of their respective Governments, in the English, Spanish, Portuguese, and French languages, on the date and at the place appearing below their signatures.
Article 1
It is agreed to abrogate Articles 2, 9, 10, 11, 16 to 53 inclusive, 61, and 62 of the Pan American Sanitary Code, signed at Havana on 14 November 1924 at the VII Pan American Sanitary Conference, all of which relate to international traffic.
Article II
Henceforth, any periodic amendment that it should be appropriate to make in the titles, sections, or articles of the Pan American Sanitary Code shall be the responsibility of the Pan American Sanitary Conference; for any such amendment to be valid, the provisions of the Constitution of the Pan American Sanitary Organization (renamed "Pan American Health Organization" by decision of the XV Pan American Sanitary Conference, September–October 1958) shall be carried out.
Article III
The original of the present Protocol shall be deposited with the Pan American Union, which shall transmit certified copies to the Governments for purposes of ratification.
Article IV
The present Protocol shall be ratified by the Signatory States in accordance with their respective constitutional procedures. The instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Pan American Union, which shall notify the Signatory Governments of such deposit.
Article V
This Protocol shall become effective on the first of October 1952 for those States which ratify this instrument before the said date. It shall become effective with respect to the remaining States on the date of ratification thereof.
Grosvenor Medical Centre, off Shirley Street, Nassau, Bahamas P.O.Box N 4833, Nassau, Bahamas Country/City Code: 1-242 Tel: 001-242 326-7299; 001-242 326-7390; 001-242-325-0121 Fax:001-242 326-7012 email@example.com


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Wolf single E-series oven trouble
My new Wolf single E-series wall oven was installed in February. Several months later, the oven began to turn itself off sporadically when I was using it. The problem usually happens when I have the oven at 400-450 degrees for more than an hour (roasting chickens or baking pizzas). I'll open the door to check the food, then when I close the door, the oven shuts itself off and MDL ERROR appears on the display. I've tried turning off the circuit breaker to reset, but the oven stays off. I can open the door just fine, but the oven won't heat. After the oven cools off for an hour or so (and my dish is ruined), then it works again.
Wolf customer service referred me their local Wolf repair shop. Their technician replaced the entire door latch mechanism, explaining that the oven 'thought' it was self-cleaning and the safety shut-off was kicking in.
Two weeks later, the problem recurred. I scheduled another appointment with the local Wolf repair guy who no-showed (grr, I took off from work just for this) and left a message about another part being needed. Weeks later, I'm still waiting for it to be installed.
Very frustrated about this because this oven was a humongous, major splurge for us. I love to bake and chose the Wolf after months of research and deliberation, reasoning that it was worth it to pay extra for performance, quality craftmanship and service, etc. And I baby this expensive present! I've never used the self-clean (the Wolf repair guy told me that self-clean really stresses the oven and shortens its lifepan).
Now I never know if this silly oven will be able to finish the job or not. It failed right in the middle of Thanksgiving dinner preparations, ruining the pies.
Anyone else having this MDL error problem? How did you resolve it?
Never had this problem, but call Wolf and let them know of the problem with 'their' repair guy and let them know how long you've been waiting, and describe all your problems and inconveniences. My experience with Wolf customer service is VERY good. If you want to lay it all out in writing, use the form on their website. I got an answer from a communication I sent that way by the next day...or write to email@example.com.
Best wishes. You should have a GREAT oven.
Thanks, rhome. I read through all your threads of oven woes while I was researching ovens. So I know you understand the frustration of pizza night interrupted. And I have to admit that the baking performance of the Wolf (when it works) waaaay outshines the KitchenAid and GE ovens I had before. Funny, but I always assumed that uneven browning, too-strong fans blowing food around, unequal oven-puff for breads were somehow 'normal' for home bakers. Or worse, my fault from poor technique. Gosh, the oven really does make a difference, doesn't it?
Repair guy is coming next week. I'll email Wolf in the meantime to see if they have any suggestions. Thanks!
tress21 -- Good luck to you. I just wanted to assure you that we've also had excellent experience with Wolf and, thankfully, our local repair guy. Don't give up.
And when you call customer service, ask about that self-cleaning "advice" you got. We have a double L series and our service guy actually recommended running the self-cleaning a few times right out of the box to ensure thorough burn-in. What's more, the manual says to run a self clean "as often as necessary" and instructs not to wait for heavy soil to accumulate -- kinda the opposite of "use sparingly."
Funny, but I always assumed that uneven browning, too-strong fans blowing food around, unequal oven-puff for breads were somehow 'normal' for home bakers. Or worse, my fault from poor technique. Gosh, the oven really does make a difference, doesn't it?
YES! Good tools make a big difference. Amazing how much better an oven can be, isn't it? Terrible what others pass off for good performance and make us battle. That's why I take some offense to those who argue with the fact that good appliances don't make good results, that it's the cook. Just makes us feel like it's our fault for things out of our control.
I hope you get your oven working well again! And soon.
Just an update:
So apparently there was a problem with the door latch mechanisms on the single E-series ovens--something about the pins corroding. The Wolf repair guy said that Wolf has redesigned the latches now with different pins (that's what the delay was for). He replaced my door latch mechanism and also the relay board which I guess could have been affected by the faulty door latch.
It's hard to tell since it's an intermittant problem, but so far, it seems to be working fine. Just in time for the holiday baking so I'm very happy. Thanks everyone!
I got the MDL error code and had to call for service in November of 2011. The oven was less than a year old, which meant no charge for service call, but very disheartening. I too, spent ALOT to have a brand I could count on. Sigh. The circuit board and latch were replaced.
Now I have the "MDL Circuit Error" error code again. I turned the breaker off for 10 minutes. It seems to be okay now. For now. But so disappointing.
Good Afternoon,
It was determined that this MDL error code was caused by a communications error, which has been corrected and successfully implemented in production E-Series Ovens. Any existing units displaying this code can be properly repaired by one of our Factory Certified Service companies. Wolf prides itself on exceptional Customer Care and support of its products, so please contact Customer Care with any concerns or questions.
You can contact us via phone Mon-Fri. 8:00-5:00 CST at 800-222-7820. We can also be reached via email at email@example.com.
Thank you,
Customer Care Team
Sub-Zero/Wolf Appliances
Here is a link that might be useful: Sub-Zero-Wolf Service/Parts/Dealer Locator
Sadly, my oven has now joined this club. I turned the breaker off and back on after 15 seconds or so, and while turning on, I saw something in the process that said something about "replace relay module," which, I assume isn't something it usually says? It still doesn't work, but maybe I should try turning off the breaker for a longer time...
Well, it was nice to sort of know what was going on, thanks to you all sharing your experiences.
I spoke to Wolf customer service today... To the person who wrote the response above, in fact. Once again, I am impressed with how Wolf is readily willing to back up their products, and I'm happy.
People can say I just paid for the name, but I really do see a big difference. Any appliance can have a problem, but it's the response of this manufacturer that makes a big difference compared to others I've dealt with... Plus these things bake JUST like they promise.
Rhome, did Wolf replace any parts after you called them about your oven's "replace relay module" message? Tress and mememeo, you each had the circuit board and latch replaced and gharborwa, you had just the latch replaced. Have any of you whose oven has been serviced, had a problem since? Thanks to you all - you do a great service when you post your experiences. Please keep us informed. I really want to purchase this oven, but I'm still hesitating.
I'm just about to make the leap to the Wolf E-series 30" wall oven to go under the 30" gas cooktop. This is way out of my budget and causing hear palpitations. :) I'd love to hear if/how Rhome got the MDL solved with Wolf CS? And can I be sure that an oven I purchase this month will have had the fix already??
I've got to say that I am impressed with Wolf's response on this. It seems like a company you can believe in. I have a gas cooktop of theirs that I love. It does have a minor issue that one of the knobs wasn't installed properly and is slightly tilted. At the moment it is only a minor cosmetic issue that most people wouldn't even notice (and no guest would ever notice). I called to ask what would happen if it broke after the warranty was up due to being out of alignment and they pushed me to have it replaced rather than live with it. They could have easily passed it off as minor and cosmetic, which it probably is, but did not.
I love a company that builds good products and stands behind them on the rare times when they have an issue. (And this is why I will probably be buying a Wolf oven soon, which is why I was reading this thread).
I missed that someone wanted to hear from me again on this...so sorry. But I am happy to say that Wolf did well for me. Because I had porcelain issues as well as the error code, they replaced the oven, and made sure my new one was recent production, so after whatever was causing the 'communicatons error' had been found and remedied.
Mememeo, are you dealing only with a service company, or have you spoken to Wolf directly? If you haven't, I'd call and talk to someone at Wolf, or email, outline your history, and ask for a sure fix.
Well, I guess I'm hopeful again. Service on my oven did all new parts again plus a new "fix" (some type of gel added to the connection)...so hopefully that will be it.
Thanks for everyone's suggestions (I do call Wolf directly about each problem so they have it logged) and good wishes. Hoping this is it now and I won't have any more problems. So nothing personal...but hope I won't be sending you ANY MORE messages!!!
I had the dreaded MDL Error on New Year's Eve. So I just turned off the oven. I used the oven the next day and no problem, but I don't trust the oven. So I emailed Wolf customer service about the MDL Error on Wednesday and they sent an authorization to my local repairman for the preventative repair and said to bill the whole thing to Wolf. My oven is two and a half years old and they will still cover the repair. That is great customer service and done in 2 days without any arguements.
I remove the stone when I'm through making pizzas. I think it would slow the preheating process to have to heat the mass, so I take it out.
Which settings are you wondering about? As far as modes, I use Convection, Bake, Convection Roast, Roast, and Broil... Pretty much in that order of frequency. I use the probe a LOT for breads as well as meats. I also use Proof when making yogurt.
Unfortunately, I have porcelain issues in my 3rd Wolf oven and they've decided I am not the 'normal' home baker, because of my more frequent baking for our large family and our weekly pizza baking, so are buying back the oven. So I'll be trying yet another brand. I'm disappointed, as I so totally love the Wolf performance when it comes to the cooking/baking functions.
That is disappointing because that sounds normal to me.
Wekick, I agree! They said I am not doing anything wrong, but the amount I bake per week (bread once or twice, a couple batches of cookies, a dinner or two, and 2 hours of 500+ degree pizza baking), is "outside of what we see for normal residential use."
Rhome, ... What will you get to replace it?
I am working with my appliance guy to find my next option, and think I'm on the right trail, but I'll wait to share until it's certain. I'll have to get DH working away at adjusting the oven cabinet again, too... Not that it's without hassle and some expense, but it's a good thing I have an in-house cabinet-maker, because none of the manufacturers seem to care to take into account that I have to remake the cabinet for another brand when they will no longer support their ovens for me.
"Mon, Dec 10, 12 at 12:20
"Sat, Jan 5, 13 at 21:38
Sheeesshh, that's less than a month the new oven lasted??
Really sorry to hear of your "Continuing Oven Saga", Rhome.
I've googled till I'm "Blue in the face", looking for ovens without porcelain interiors, and they just don't seem to exist or at least be easily available in the US, but I guess you have, (Let's see), "Plan E"? option in motion?
I even looked into "Electric Pizza Wall Ovens" and didn't really find anything of "particular interest" there, either.
I'm not sure whether you are using single or double ovens, but I sure would go with singles, especially since you have
"Easy Access" to that "In House Cabinet Builder".
It does make one wonder why an oven can't hold up to what many of us would not consider "Abnormal Oven Use",
"(I bake per week (bread once or twice, a couple batches of cookies, a dinner or two, and 2 hours of 500+ degree pizza baking)"
Perhaps others can join in here and tell us how they use their ovens?
Do you bake pizza in your oven, what temp and time?
Do you bake bread in your oven, What temp and time?
Do you self clean your oven, how often and for how long?
To start it out, I do none of the above in my oven. I get my pizza from Roundtable, and I don't ever recall baking bread, and we have only self cleaned it once.
Because my oven is soooo "babied" I will not recommend it to you, Rhome, as it does have a porcelain interior and certainly is not used as your next one will be.
I did download all the Wolf operator Manuals, guides, warranty info, etc etc. I do find it interesting that the default temp for the Convection Broil is 550F, so would one "not expect" 550F to be within the "Normal operating temp of the oven?
Good luck with your new one, if anybody deserves it, It's
Certainly YOU!!!!
No, I answered that question in December, but I had the new oven before that... It lasted 5 months, which isn't exactly stellar, nor does it make much of a difference in comparison to how long it should have lasted!
Singles are a much more expensive option than doubles, and where you might have an argument about electronics with singles vs doubles, I'm not sure it would make much difference with the problem I'm having.
I asked about getting one of the Wolf steam ovens and a single convection oven, moving my pizza baking to the stainless interior steam oven, and the rep's initial response was that she wasn't sure the single convection oven could stand up to my frequent baking, even without the pizza. That one really shocked me. And, of course, there was no offer to trade my double oven for that other, more expensive combo.
A later message said she thought that combination (steam plus sgl convection) would probably work for me, and they would stand behind the sgl convection oven if it had the problem again. But with the extra expense and the more major cabinet overhaul, added to this recent disappointment with them, I'm not inclined to do that. IF she initially said it was a good idea, and if they had offered to help me with the difference, I probably would've jumped at giving it a try. I could've been excited about trying out the steam oven, even though it would limit my pizzas to one smaller oven. But now I'm thinking I should move on.
I appreciate your support and your looking into pizza ovens. I did that, too, but wasn't impressed with my options. My appliance guy is talking to the Gagg rep, who claims their oven should do what I need without porcelain problems. But, of course, they want me to use their proprietary pizza stone and element, which are 2 accessories (per oven cavity) at dear prices.
Had my door latch and relay board replaced again over the holidays, after nearly a year without the MDL Error. Third time's a charm, right? This time the repairman used the Nyogel that mememeo also had placed. Repair guy assured me that the Nyogel should do the trick, and any further MDL Error issues will be repaired even after my warranty runs out next month.
Rhome, as I was wiping out my oven today after a pie spill I noticed on the floor of my oven, near the door, an area on each side of the oven floor where the blue has come off. At first I assumed I must be scraping the oven floor with the bottom rack when pulling out, removing or replacing the bottom rack. But no matter how I play with the rack, it doesn't touch those areas. They are oblong areas of missing blue porcelain, each about the size of a half-dollar. Wiping over those areas with a damp paper towel releases tiny blue flecks. I've never used oven cleaner or any harsh abrasives. Just warm water and occasionally a bit of baking soda for a stubborn stain. And no self-cleaning.
Rhome, is this similar to the porcelain flaking problem you described? What potential problems can this cause? Rust? Will the entire oven floor slough off eventually/ I love this oven's performance and use it daily (sometimes twice daily) for roasting vegetables, weekly pizza, breads and baking. But my warranty is up in a few weeks---do I need to make a fuss about this?
I would take photos and send them to Wolf... Or, actually, I think I started on the website contact/message page, and offer to send the photos. --And definitely do it before your warranty expires.
I don't know enough to tell you whether the metal will rust. Wolf says this is cosmetic and won't affect the performance of the oven. But I think it will make it hard to clean, as those exposed metal places are not always smooth... And be careful of those little blue flecks...Mine came off in splinters and I got one in my hand, and since porcelain is glass, it cut, and continued to cut as I tried to pull it out, but it kept breaking into tiny pieces instead of pulling out all at once. There may also be a way to patch porcelain, but as long as it's under warranty, why mess with funky fixes, when it's still their responsibility to stand behind it? Wolf is good to work with.
My bare areas also developed in the front corners of the oven. I wrote a blog post about this and showed some pics, and also linked to prior posts about my oven saga, some of which had photos from the prior ovens. I'd move some to Photobucket so I could post them here, but it's so late and I'm too exhausted. Hope you don't mind a link to the blog post instead.
Here is a link that might be useful: my -Oven Saga Continues- post
Good news now rhome and others posting pictures in Garden Web.
Note where it says "Image file to upload".
Click the Browse there, go to where the picture is in your computer, and select it. No need to post the picture in Flickr, photobucket etc etc.
The reason I mentioned single ovens Rhome, was not due to "Electronic Issues" with double ovens, but for two other reasons.
First it is a lot easier to remove a single oven than a double oven.
Secondly, you still have an operational oven during the time
(Hopefully the last time), that the other oven is being replaced.
When is your new oven/s coming and did you indeed decide on
Sure wish you the best of luck with the new ones!!!
just a thought rhome, maybe u should look into a commercial oven. i realize the cost would be alot more, but it may be an option for you.
to me, it seems that you have exhausted "residential" ovens, so this could the answer.
i am not sure what the legalities are, to have a commercial oven in your home, but maybe its worth looking into.???
i am sad to hear this since i have the "e" oven also, but glad to hear wolf is "manning up" and taking care of you.
hope your next oven ends your saga for a loooonnnnggggg time, you certainly deserve it :)
best of luck with whatever you choose!!!
OMG, I have ordered the exact oven configuration that Rhome (and others) is having SO much trouble with.... Very disheartening. That beautiful Blue porcelain interior flaking away and all of these electronics issues. I am thinking that I might have bought myself a whole lot of trouble.
Lorenza5064, this particular error code is the only electronic issue I remember reading about Wolf ovens, and they've addressed it in ovens that are in production. Not that it makes Tress21's and Mememeo's hassles easier to take, but I still think you have reason to expect your Wolf oven to do well. Compared to other stories I've read here and the related problems dealing with manufacturers, I still think Wolf does well by their consumers.
Sprtphntc, I did indeed look into commercial ovens, but it'd mean a reconfiguration of the room and maybe wiring, plus there is no warranty in a residential setting. I found plenty of bad reviews about them, too. They are not immune to problems and uneven baking, it seems. Thanks for the good wishes!
Thanks, Gary. I knew about the new feature to add a photo, but they are small and only one per thread, unless there's been an update. At 2 AM it was just easier to link to a post where I knew there were pics, and not hunt through my photo files, also. ;-)
In my case, I'd just be replacing 2 singles instead of a double, since I've usually had porcelain issues in both cavities. I visited with the BSH rep yesterday, and have big hopes for the Gagg "open box" oven my appliance guy found me. I asked, and was assured that the inside elements are NOT shared with Thermador and Bosch ovens, as you'd suspected. I don't really understand that appliance part site you linked in the Kitchen Forum thread, but I checked the part compatibility, and it doesn't match the Gagg wall oven's model number, nor does that site offer any parts that will fit it. Gaggenaus are made in their own plant in Germany, so are 'completely different animals,' with completely different parts than their Bosch and Thermador cousins. At this point, I can only hope for the best and move forward!
Rhome, thanks for the link. What a lovely blog!
My ovens are flaking in exactly the same place and pattern as yours did. I wonder if that is the location of a heating element under the oven floor, causing excess stress in that particular spot? Plus mine has another, more central area of pitting where little dimples of bare metal are apparent. And I don't use high temperatures--I do pizzas on parchment paper which has an upper limit of 425 degrees, and my baking pans are ceramic coated and also have a max of 425.
Thanks, Tress21~
My theory has been that the oven curves in different directions at those corners, and the metal will flex for heating and cooling, but the porcelain doesn't? I don't know. I'd expect the element not to be so far into the corners, but I haven't really checked.
In my first Wolf, I had little dimples of bare metal across more of the bottom of the oven. Some were in almost perfect circles, but not all, which I thought might mean that old pie spills or something had eventually eaten through the porcelain. It was the only Wolf oven I saw that in, but I had it longer than #2 and #3, so maybe they just hadn't developed the problem to that same extent. I think I noticed the problem faster after I knew what to look for.
You could very well be correct, about that site, rhome.
Seems like I was looking for a Gaggenau Fridge part for a poster when I stumbled on that site, and noticed it said it fit, Bosch, Thermador and Gaggenau fridges, so I got curious and looked up some other parts, oven parts in this case and again it said "X" part fit the three I mentioned.
Not too worry, I did not look up a "particular Gaggenau oven model", like yours, and then get the part number of the heating element and then see what other ovens its fits.
And------ I'm not about to do it now.
The important thing is you get an oven that meets your needs and lasts a LONG LONNNNNG Time!!!
For that I shall be silent about "Thy Gaggenau"!
For that I shall be silent about "Thy Gaggenau"!
It's only prudent, on both our parts, to not make guesses about it until we see it in action. ;-) I am certainly not in the position to be sure it will be a non-problematic, long-term answer, as I've been wrong about that 3 times. But it also could be wonderful for decades to come. Which is what I'll hope.
Rhome- So sorry for your oven troubles! I don't think you are using it in an abnormal way. We have 6 kids, 4 at home still but dd brings her fiance over, other premed students, plus the other kids have friends over so I am often cooking for large numbers also. To me, it is normal. When the house is silent and there are no kids around and I am not busy doing a million things, that is abnormal.
Our house came with the original 1956 GE turquois blue wall oven. It is small but I have to say that it bakes beautifully. No seams in the corners, everything is rounded over. It is in very good condition and it is used by us alot. We also have pizza or calzone night and it gets cranked up to 500F for hours. I have been known to forget to turn the darn thing off at night. I have never had an oven heat up as quickly as this one does, just wish it was larger.
I wish current manufacturers could produce quality equipment like they used to. After reading all the woes of current choices I am beginning to reconsider replacing ours.
Thanks for sharing your blog, you have a beautiful family and it is nice to see another large family who still does things and works together like we do. Hoping you have great success with your Gaggs.
Silent house? No kids around? Those are terms I'm not familiar with! LOL --Thank goodness...
I do agree that appliances aren't made to last for decades like they used to. I had no complaints, and no porcelain problems with mid-range (at the time) ovens in electric ranges that lasted years and years. But they also had exposed elements and awful burners on top, so we've made some trades, I guess. It's easy to look back through rose-colored glasses, but, of course, you're talking about current experience, and maybe you should consider keeping yours for as long as you can. But if remodeling, leave room for good options later and/or add a 2nd, maybe specialty (speed or steam), oven?
I called Wolf and they authorized a repair for the MDL error and it was fixed on Wednesday. I just opened my oven to wipe it out and there in the bottom front corners I noticed the blue porcelain is chipped. Oh I didn't think this would happen. So I have emailed Wolf and now I am waiting for a reply from them next week. I love this oven! I just want to cry.
You mean "Germanie?" ;-) As the distributor rep told me... It's a German engineered oven built in Germany to specs for French chefs! Interesting marketing, but as long as it works! Still waiting for delivery, and for DH to have time to remake the cabinet.
I'm so sorry Mememeo and Kalapointer! You can see the crazing around the bare spot on Kala's pics. That's how it starts. I noted from your comment on my blog, Kala, that you don't bake 'to the extreme' like I do, so I'm wondering how they'll explain your issues.
They took a couple of weeks to discuss my repeated problem, and I was hoping they were going to come up with a custom answer for me. That wasn't to be. But maybe with a rash of the same thing, it'll prompt them to make a major and lasting change. They do have great ovens, so this is sad for them and, especially, those of us who bought, like, and would like to keep them.
An update for those interested. 2 bumps in the road so far, but that seems to be the way oven life goes for me... I think they're small and short-lived and hope I'm soon past both. My Gagg oven came with a bit of a crunched area around the bottom from some sloppy handtruck work by overzealous or undercaring young warehouseman, I'm guessing. Anyway, a little straightening and she went right into the cabinet and seems to be operating just fine. Since it's a floor model, it had a couple of accessories missing, but my salesman, Mike Hoag at Albert Lee Appliance in Seattle, who has been so helpful through this whole process, is following up with the distributor to replace those. My pizza stone attachment is backordered, but I can't wait to try it.
This thing is BIG. And the doors are amazing...if I could remember to open them far enough. I haven't burned myself yet, but I fear that day is coming, and then I'll learn my lesson, I guess.
So far it's done pretty well with bread and roast beef. The clock display and timer leave something to be desired, but I care much more about how it bakes and if the porcelain stays in it!
Here is a link that might be useful: Oven pictures on my blog
happy to hear all is going well so far :)
we are hoping we only hear you sing the praises of the GAGG for many, many years and see some scrumptious pics of whatever you are baking.
best of luck with this pair and hope this is the end of your oven saga!!!!
I hope they stand up too.
I think you "hinted" in an earlier post that the "Run of the Mill", (Non Fancy, if you will), ovens, do not have this porcelain problem, and they don't, as they don't have porcelain.
I buy those kind for my rentals, and they just last forever, and I've never had a tenant complain about the baking either.
In fact all my ovens, except the current Electrolux did not have porcelain and NONE ever had a service call, including the double (Caloric) I think, ovens that I installed in our first house. All certainly performed as well as we ever needed.
Think about it, if your Mom and Grand Mom's were like mine, and Aunts too, none had fancy ovens, but Boy can I recall some of the great stuffed they baked, Especially Tamale Pie, Yumm Yumm!, but I recall great cookies and my Mom did Absolutely Fabulous cakes, She even won awards for them.
We were a poor family, 4 kids, and no "Luxuries" of any kind, but I sure didn't suffer in the food dept.
So now we are both well enough off, to buy pretty much anything we want, (as far as ovens), So we buy the "Fancy stuff, It looks nice and makes us happy happy, but I bet anything you bake would be just as good in any of my ovens, even in the rentals.
I only mention this, so we do not lead folks to think they have to shell out Tons of money for the "Fanciest" and the best Pro performance ovens in able to be good bakers, such is just not the case, We do it, cause we want to and we can afford it.
I do however hope the Gaggenau turns out to be everything you expect it to be!
I am not talking about a defective or poorly performing oven, as was your experience with the GE, I'm just talking about your properly operating "Run of the Mill Oven".
I grew up with them, and I bet you did too!!!
I buy those kind for my rentals, and they just last forever, and I've never had a tenant complain about the baking either.
Sure... NOW you tell me! ;-)
I honestly don't think they make ovens like we grew up with any more. I tried, at some point in this mess, to look for good quality and very basic. Without even convection, which I wasn't impressed with until the Wolf. I asked and asked and researched. That option (plain and well-made) doesn't seem to exist. I was assured by more than one tech that these days cheap is cheap, and means lighter weight, less insulation, less consistent heat, and cheap build quality and cheaper (now unavoidable) electronic parts. Maybe gas ovens offer something simpler, but we've never lived on a gas line, so I've never considered gas ovens.
I had a GE range (bought approx 1998) that had an oven whose performance I'd be glad to have again. When we built the house, I planned to get the same range, times 2, in order to have 2 ovens and more burners. But that range no longer existed. What GE had by then offered more 'features' and less of what I really wanted... Consistency and longevity.
I have to say I don't remember ovens without porcelain from my childhood. I've sure never seen one in the store unless it was a specialty oven like a steam or speed oven. I just looked on the Frigidaire site at their least expensive double wall oven and still see porcelain, so I'm curious what you're buying for rentals. When we moved into our last house, circa 1963, it had the original oven with what I thought was a gray porcelain interior.
There is always those who will say that the appliance doesn't make the cook or baker. I agree with that only to a point, because it's possible to cook over fire, but it's not necessarily satisfactory. If the oven is uneven, inaccurate, or inconsistent, it sure makes it tougher to be a great baker. Not that it's impossible, but it sure takes more work and time to watch things at every second. I sew and my husband is an accomplished woodworker. We can accomplish things with plain-jane and less expensive tools, but we also know that quality tools do make a difference in the outcome, and of course, the experience.
Certainly all of these issues are what they call "First World" problems. Not exactly big in the scheme of things, and nothing life or death. ("Oh, poor me... I have a flaky oven.")
I do really wish I'd found an oven solution of the more affordable variety. I write a blog from which I'd like to be helpful to other homemakers, especially those with big families. I didn't want the Mercedes of ovens, since that's really not 'me' and I actually feel a little funny about it. I initially bought a Fisher & Paykel oven for my kitchen that I intended to last me 20 or 30 years. It wasn't the most basic of ovens, but because it was a scratch and dent, refurbished type of offering, it was similarly priced to a builder's grade double oven.. a double oven, itself, being a luxury and a bit of a splurge for me.
I was happy and very content until it started coming apart and sent me down this ridiculous rabbit trail. The more ridiculous it seemed to get, the more tired and confused I got about what to look for, and what to trust. I got more discerning, or more whiny and finicky, depending on how you want to look at it! I can't honestly say which sometimes, and I'm sure some of this probably sounds like justification or excuses.
While I'm extremely blessed at this point, in finding helpful people and comparatively great deals along the way, I'm also quite disappointed in how it turned out and what it took to get an oven that will, hopefully, bake well and stay together. I didn't know that would be such an unreasonable demand of modern ovens.
I'm sure there is probably an oven out there that will have baked for me and not had the problems for a more reasonable price, but I ran out of ways to find it and know it might be any good. I admit I got tired of hassles and tried to pay my way out of them (Still always floor model deals, because I'm cheap that way). In the end, it didn't work to 'pay for the best' with Wolf. If it doesn't work this time, I'll be contacting you for your source of those rental ovens! ;-)
No problem. I know my Old GE electric range was not porcelain, it had a rough feel to it,it was self cleaning though.
Now to tell the truth, I have not felt inside those ovens I speak of, I was just going by looks. I will get over to my rental and check out the oven, it is actually a gas range.
So maybe you are correct that all ovens are porcelain,---that's a surprise to me!
Maybe I should have recommended the Electrolux to you, but after all your problems, I would have felt terrible if the Electrolux gave you any problems, so I went with
"Discretion is the Better Part of Valor" (Actually I "Chickened Out) LOL!
One thing that is nice about the Elux is the whole bottom, (The area where the Wolf's are flaking), lifts right out of the oven, makes it easy to clean, (as I don't self clean mine), but more important than that is the fact that the whole bottom is easily replaceable, alto mine has no chips whatsoever after almost 7 years now.
Keeping ALL my "Phalangie of the digits" crossed for You and your Gaggenau!!!!
Not like your years of loving your Electrolux didn't speak volumes without your direct suggestion. ;-)
I do wish, perhaps, you'd said something about the bottom of the oven coming out, because I thought only Dacor had that. They have a glass bottom that comes out to address the element, if needed, and I always thought that seam probably kept the porcelain from breaking during heating and cooling, too. But there wasn't enough positive reviews to support Dacor as a choice. I often wondered why other manufacturers didn't do something similar.
I was kicking myself the other day for not just getting an Elux, because of the money savings, and the decent reviews. (Plus, I'm betting the learning curve would've been a little less than for this thing!) I wanted, though, an oven that will last for the long haul (decades), and I'm not sure Electrolux is built for that. Its good reputation was interrupted by the electronics debacle of 2009, so the new and improved models are recent, in the scheme of things.
I was told that the Gagg would be my best bet at the 'forever' oven I wanted. We'll see! At it's regular price, I never would've tried it, but for this deal, I almost had to! But that was another side effect of this 'adventure': financial numbness.
I would've saved about $1700 getting the non-Icon Elux. That's a lot to save if I get the same benefits for my money. It's also not a lot to save if I need 2 or more ovens in the same time frame I'll have the Gagg. But I have no crystal ball to see what will happen and if God's willing that we live here long enough to find out. At least I have 3x the warranty length, because the store did that for me.
But I've made my choice and there's no use looking back. So thanks for your well wishes. I'll be sure and let you know if it doesn't work out for some reason. At that point, I'll probably run straight to Elux, admitting I should've listened to Gary and Cj! --Not that with my history, they'll want me! I'm surprised I'm not on some sort of oven manufacturers' black list.
My friend told me he Googled "oven destroyer" and my picture came up at the top of the list. ;-)
Kalapointer and Mememeo--Any news from Wolf regarding the porcelain??
I just took a good look at my ovens today and saw that I, too, am having the same issue. Right now I just see it on the right corner of the upper oven, but I can't check the bottom oven now during the self-clean.
(Yes, I know I need to clean the upper oven also. :) )
EDIT: Mine are 30" Wolf Ls.
This post was edited by breezygirl on Wed, Apr 24, 13 at 17:11
Sorry to hear this breezegirl, and unfortunately "Pushing in on the door", won't fix it this time.
I'm glad you asked the other 2 posters to follow up on their oven status.
I wonder if anyone has called Wolf and asked them about the advisability of using one of those "Oven Porcelain Repair Kits",
(It might come in handy for someone that did not have the problem for 3 years or so)?
I attached a link below, for instructions on how to repair. I hope somebody checks with Wolf, and reports back.
Caution with the fingers, Breezygal and best of luck getting it taken care of.
Here's the Link.
Here is a link that might be useful: Oven Porcelain Repair
You're right. Unfortunately, I can't just push on the door this time to fix it. :( No more magic for me up your sleeve? ;)
I'm still under warranty so Wolf referred me to a service tech who can come on Monday morning. At this point, the product specialist at Wolf wasn't interested in seeing my photos of the damage. She told me the ovens were fine to use after I wipe up the flaked porcelain bits laying around.
I'll follow up next week when I have more info.
That's another thing that ticks me off.. the claim that the oven performance is not affected by this issue. I couldn't clean mine without getting shards of glass in my hand... The bare spots will not be easy to keep clean. With dual convection fans and tiny, loose glass particles, who says they won't end up in food? Quite awhile back, there was someone who found blue pieces on top of a casserole. I wasn't willing to risk that. Can they guarantee it won't happen?
This is a construction issue that's not too rare, based on the number of people who have experienced it here. It's always in the same spot, which, I'm guessing, means the porcelain isn't standing up to heating and cooling on that curve near the door. Maybe the oven needs to be reshaped. Maybe there needs to be an expansion seam of some sort to absorb the expansion and contraction of the metal without stressing the porcelain. Something.
What will a tech do for you? They always dealt with me after seeing my photos. All a tech can say is, yes, there are bare spots. Big help. They'll really try to tell you that it doesn't affect the oven. If so, why did they put porcelain in it to begin with?
You may be able to tell, I'm losing patience with this... On behalf of all Wolf oven consumers. They have a great oven, and I've raved about the performance of their technology, and to a point, their customer service... But they need to FIX. THIS.
I have been following this thread with great interest. I ordered the appliances for my kitchen renovation in September 2012 and will be taking delivery on the 8th of May. I studied and "test drove" appliances in a showroom. I vetted my preferences on the GW and ultimately decided to purchase Wolf ovens, an E series, and a steam oven. All of the issues that have been reported on this thread of flaking porcelain, resulting from high temperature baking or using the "self cleaning" function have been a source of great concern. It seems that Wolf has stood by its products and settled customer claims (to an extent), but Wolf seems to be placing band aids on a problem, not resolving it. I guess I will be informed and "prepared" when I need to place my own claim with Wolf for product failure..... Ciao ciao, L
I just cleaned my oven last week for the first time. The door locked and wouldn't open. Had a repairman come out to open it; the latch needs to be replaced. But, after he left and I was cleaning up inside, I noticed lots of blue flakes...the dreaded flaking has hit my oven, also. Just talked to someone at Wolf who talked about replacing the full porcelain liner. Has anyone had this done yet? Is it something you would recommend? If it is the same material, what is there to prevent this happening again? Or have they perhaps developed a new and improved version of the porcelain? Thanks for any input.
Geez, disheartening to hear seemingly endless reports of a problem Wolf insists is "rare." Can I ask if all of you did the "burn in" when you first got the oven that Wolf recommends? Not saying anyone did anything wrong, just wondering if that actually makes any difference as they claim.
So sorry, GHarborwa... Especially since I'm the one who talked you into that Wolf oven!
Yep, did the burn in each time. On oven #3 I would've turned upside down and sung something during the burn-in if that's what they recommended. (haha) I sure WANTED my oven to last. Ridiculous to indicate proper burn is the general cause of this kind of problem...and put the 'blame' back toward the consumer instead of the oven's issue. We all have identical pics of it happening the same way in the same spot in the oven. Hmm. What a coincidence. ;-)
I'd heard from a tech that they used to try to replace the oven cavities in the ranges, but that it meant taking the range apart into millions of pieces and it wasn't worth the price of a tech's time to Wolf to do that. So I'd be surprised if they take that approach. But I am getting less and less surprised about the responses they're giving...
So sorry to hear this as I have one of these ovens as well. I am putting on blinders and hoping to avoid the problem.
I nuked the Elux at the last minute as they were having the same issues but had not seen Wolf problems....
Breezy - I had to laugh at pushing the door responses.
Rhome - what is your next oven....
Appl - I did the burn in - keep your fingers crossed...
Lorenza - good luck!!!
dodge - did you ask about the flakes?
I hadn't seen reports of Elux problems like this... at least for a long while, so I thought maybe they were good.
Rhome - what is your next oven....
I was blessed with a salesman to help me who was aghast at Wolf's response to me, and who found a floor model Gaggenau oven for just about the same amount as my Wolf buyback check. Time will tell if it maintains its blue interior! He also gave me an extended warranty to make sure I was well covered after my ridiculous oven saga, and since BSH isn't exactly famous for wondrous customer service. In case anyone's lost count, the Gagg is my 7th new oven in just under 5 years... The 4th oven brand I've tried. I'm not feeling too impressed with the residential oven industry at this point!
Nothing to do but put on the blinders and hope for the best, A2gemini, but at the same time, keep your eyes open... Especially before the warranty period ends. I hope you have one that doesn't develop the problem!
Lorenza, I don't think the problem is necessarily related to high heat baking or self-clean. I've had at least one forum member email me about this problem who never did either before it started in her oven.
Dodge has a trouble free Elux, so he is only trying to help with an alternative suggestion.
But I wouldn't resort to trying to patch the porcelain unless I was out of warranty. Under warranty it is their responsibility to make things right. I briefly considered taking their offer to give me a couple hundred dollars to just keep the oven with the bare spots and trying to patch, but if my oven had those bare places in both front corners after 5 months, I had to wonder what it would look like in 5 years!
I also remembered that when I waited about 13 months to call them about my first oven, it had bare spots across more of the bottom of the cavity... It looked as if some of the sweet or greasy overspills had eaten through the porcelain, because they were in spatter and round patterns. There could end up to be a lot of unsightly patches over the life of the oven!
--Not what you expect for Wolf prices, and besides just the right to have what you paid for in good condition for your own use, if you want to sell your house, for example, you want a Wolf oven to be a big plus, not something that decreases the value of the home or needs replacing.
Hi all, I have been out of town helping my father during a heart valve replacement and haven't seen the new life on this thread. Anyway my Wolf E series also had porcelain chipping and it was installed 2.5 years ago, 6 months out of warranty. Wolf wanted to give my $500.00 to fix it, but the tech at Wolf slipped up and said that there really isn't a fix for it. So I did not take the money but decided to try another road. I went back to the store where I purchased it and talked the the salesman who sold it to me and asked him to get the Wolf distributors involved. About a week later, my salesman called and said since my oven was out of warranty it could be replaced, but I had to pay $500.00 since there have been some upgrades after I bought it. So I said ok. It was installed in March and I did the burn-off as instructed in the manual and I have used it only 3 or 4 times since. I have noticed little chips in the corners already. Now I just think I will let it go for a while and see how it progresses. I will not let the warranty lapse this time. I really don't know what I would replace it with if it comes to that.
I was not happy with Wolf Customer Service. Being out of the warranty only six months, I felt they should have taken care of a good customer a little better. Why did the salesman and the distributor come up with a deal and Wolf didn't? Where was this great customer service I have been hearing about? I felt like Wolf wanted to buy me off with money to make me go away.
They have a major problem with this porcelain and they should own up to it. It is not cosmetic and could be dangerous.
BTW, I was on vacation in Feb. and rented a Condo that had Wolf appliances and the first thing I did was to check out the L Series wall oven. Guess what I saw? Chipped porcelain in the corners!!
Kalapointer--Glad to see a report of your outcome. And more chipping after using the new oven only 3-4 times?? That's not good news at all.
Rhome--I agree that the company line about the flaking and chipping porcelain being of no consequence to my family in using the oven is a load of hogwash. I saw some of those great big flakes! Not in my food!
Obsessively checking the ovens all weekend, I ran my hand across an odd looking area I noticed on the interior of door of the upper oven. The area flaked immediately under my fingers.
And I found another large flake in the upper oven.
I thought the lower oven seemed to be in good shape until I used it on Sunday for my tomatillo enchiladas and found the oven door and bottom of the oven with a layer of very fine, sparkly blue porcelain when the baking was done.
A local service tech came yesterday morning to examine my ovens. He took some photos on his phone and called into Wolf. He has seen this before with Wolf ovens, but not too often. Without asking, he told me that out of all the high-end manufacturers with whom he works, Wolf is by far the best when it comes to service with the techs and service with the customer. He mentioned that the chipping areas could be sanded down with very fine sandpaper, which would make them safe for food again in the short term.
I spoke with a product specialist at Wolf today who said that since there was no remedy for the flaking, they will replace my ovens. The replacement is good news, but after hearing Rhome's and Kalapointer's repeated issues over multiple ovens, I'm not holding my breath for a non-flaking oven.
The distributor is supposed to call me within a week to set up the oven swap. DH said he doesn't want me using the ovens unless the food is covered until he gets home from a business trip and can sand them down as per the recommendation. Even then, I'm not sure I want to eat food cooked without being covered.
This is happening fast. The distributor called a minute ago saying that they had a set of unframed double L ovens just like mine in their warehouse. I am now waiting for the service company that came yesterday to schedule the swap. And that also means I need to start thinking of how to protect my wood floors and my cabinets, etc. during the exchange. I must say that I'm impressed with the speed of this process.
Funny you should say that, Gary. I've been telling myself over the last few days to be very careful with my fingers so I don't get a splinter like Rhome. When the service tech was here yesterday I was showing him the damaged areas, and, like a dummy, I rubbed my fingers directly on the porcelain! Oops! I was stabbed by a small shard.
I am out of town right now, but had a messages from both the distributer and my repairman....and Wolf is going to be replacing my oven, also! I am not sure if they have fixed the issue since I bought my oven, but, like Breezy, I am impressed with their quick response to this problem.
Ha! Maybe it's our climate. ;-) I do think Bradlee would get tired of this...
3 ovens and the shrug, hands thrown up, and, finally, bailing on me altogether, tells me there have been no improvements made on this oven interior so far. The fact that they are making changes in the oven cavity, and putting in a separate, replaceable bottom piece in the M series tells me they know they have a problem, even if they're not fully admitting it. It's a step in the right direction. Hopefully, all of your new ovens will last until you can replace it, next time, with the M series. I'll be envious. :)
I was wondering the same thing last night about so many of us (Kalapointer, Gharborwa, Rhome, and me) in Washington with this issue.
Mememeo--Are you, by chance, in Washington also?
Bradlee for me, too. It must seem like an epidemic to them considering how these porcelain failures are so "rare" according to Wolf.
I hadn't seen that the M series was to have a replaceable bottom piece. Was that on another thread?
Applnut mentioned it in the post linked below.
Here is a link that might be useful: Applnut's post
Yes, Bradlee must really be wondering about this current epidemic. Apparantly, we are members of an exclusive, but growing club. But I have been told more than once that any other company would not back up their products like Wolf does, which is one of the main reasons I bought several appliances from their line.
Thanks, Rhome.
I agree with you, Gharborwa. One of the reasons I finally decided to buy these horrendously expensive ovens, even at the floor model price which I paid, was Wolf's excellent CS record. So far so good with that, but I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of their oven quality.
Update: My new ovens were installed about 20 minutes ago. They look great, and the installers were very capable, funny, friendly, and careful guys. I apologized when they walked in for creating such a delicate work environment for them: hardwood floors, white cabs, and marble and walnut countertops.
I'm in the process of doing the slow burn-off method, which will take many hours, but I'm willing to give it a try if there's even a remote chance it may prevent the porcelain issue in the future. Not holding my breath though. :-(
We designed a new kitchen and planned it for a 30" Wolf e series and steam oven on top.
I'm concerned about the flaking porcelain issue and called Wolf. A tech there told me that the new e series is designed with a separate bottom to eliminate the flaking so many have reported. The rep also told me that there's a new 30" steam oven due out next year. Anyone else hear about this?
Any help is welcomed
I think the separate bottom would help a lot with the crazing/flaking issues like I had in the corners of my oven. The seam should mean the porcelain doesn't take so much stress when the oven heats and cools. I hadn't heard they'd be doing that in the E series, but if they are, that's smart, and a good thing, IMO.
Links that might help:
We designed a new kitchen and planned it for a 30" Wolf e series and steam oven on top.
I'm concerned about the flaking porcelain issue and called Wolf. A tech there told me that the new e series is designed with a separate bottom to eliminate the flaking so many have reported. The rep also told me that there's a new 30" steam oven due out next year. Anyone else hear about this?
Any help is welcomed
There were "Rev. B" stickers on the box, materials and oven when I received it. My SZ also had a "Rev. B." I'm assuming they made minor changes in some of the components at one point and labeled it that way like software gets version codes?? I'm not sure at all. The manufacture date of my oven was Dec. 2012.
Way less hassle for everyone involved, I'd think.
I sure wish they'd told me they were working on this change instead of bailing on me. A little transparency and reassurance that they were doing something about it (they obviously already had this change in the works) and I would still have a Wolf oven. (And talk about hassles that could have been averted.) I miss mine so much! My dream is that they'd see the 'errors of their ways' in my case, and make sure I had one again. Like I said, it's a dream.
It won't, of course, halt all chipping, but doors are already easily replaceable, and there doesn't seem to be as widespread a problem with the doors. Replacing double ovens is no small task, so replacing the bottoms of the oven cavities will be much easier and faster, and require, probably, only one service person. --And with no risk of damage to the rest of the house and cabinet. Lots of plusses, besides the possibility that the porcelain won't be as stressed, so may not chip as readily.
Okay, thanks Rhome! All that makes sense. Is there a reason why they continue to use the blue porcelain at all? Not trying to be sarcastic, but if they are having these problems, wouldn't an alternative be to discontinue the porcelain? I am just trying to learn here.
BTW, how are you making out with the Gagg?
My 2nd Fisher & Paykel oven had black porcelain, and it pitted and splintered, too. I think it's less noticeable because the metal and porcelain sort of match? It may also have to do with oven shape. On a rounded corner (rounded in 2 directions), while the metal expands and contracts, and the porcelain can't, it seems a recipe for problems, not matter the color. My hated GE Monogram oven had the speckly, gray interior that seemed thinner and more paintlike... It didn't have problems, at least not in the several months I had that oven.
The Gagg is ok (the porcelain seems to be staying intact, I have to say that), but I really miss the Wolf. It was just more 'me,' I guess. The size and the racks are an adjustment I haven't enjoyed, as well as pizza baking issues. Obviously, pizza isn't everything, but it's become a yardstick for measuring oven performance, I guess, for us. I have been planning to write a blog post about the details, and why I have that dream of Wolf coming through for me... So now I think I will follow through on that, rather than write a big, long post here. I'll come back and give the link when I have it done, for those who are interested.
Here is a link that might be useful: Blog post, contentment w Gagg vs Wolf
This post was edited by rhome410 on Sun, Nov 3, 13 at 0:17
Kalapointer I am between 2-3 years so will be interesting to see how they handle my oven. They are coming dec 11
I have an authorization code - so stay tuned! They are sending an actual factory repair person and not from the local repair shops.
I rejected the local repair place as they totally messed up my DW years back.
This post was edited by a2gemini on Tue, Dec 2, 14 at 15:27

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Results 91 to 102 of 102
October 30th, 2008, 04:55 AM #91
It's all just a matter of opinion, after all.
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Ah, so there are no definitively bad (or good) novels. Interesting. It's all just subjective and there are no metrics involved. Well, then people need to fire every editor working today--it's a waste of money. And stick with your first draft; you can't, after all, "improve" your story because--other than grammar--there
I are agreeing not wit you. That sentence is clearly flawed and that is fact.
I really think Terry Goodkind is a superb author and Tolkien is a bad author. That is my opinion and do not try to present it as fact.
October 30th, 2008, 05:53 AM #92
That's ignoring, of course, the fact that an editor has a much more important role in representing a book commercially even than the key one they have in improving it creatively. So no, I think we can keep them in work for now.
I've yet to hear a principle of writing from you that isn't ultimately an opinion. Sensible ones, that could often be very useful to writers, maybe, but a long way from facts. And even when you're presenting a very sensible general principle such as, "make every word count", exactly how or when one should apply that principle is still utterly subjective. No two writers, no two editors, no two readers, will ever have exactly the same opinion about what constitutes a wasted word or not. But that's a good thing. Celebrate it. It would be a dull world if we just had a set of rules to follow.
Anyway, pleasure tussling with ya, I applaud your passion in the cause of better writing, but damned if I haven't spent the best part of an hour chewing the fat, and I'm supposed to be editing my own book, so, with the greatest of respect I will retire, the field is yours.
Now where did I put my much thumbed-through copy of Lidyek's Incontrovertible Principles of the Writerly Craft? I've an ending I need to bring within acceptible parameters...
October 30th, 2008, 08:29 AM #93
Ranke, I'm on your side, though it's not always possible to objectify the subjective, and find those elements common to many positive reactions and negative reactions. The problem is not that there is no way to objectify them, it's just that we don't know what they are clearly enough to do it. How do you spell out in words an emotional response to a book? And that emotional response is the result of both physical reactions (chemical, brain reactions) and personal history, expectations and so much more. KatG and I have arugued this point many times in that past. It's absurd to say that there are no differences in quality from one book to another, and that it's all a matter of taste. We are the ones who define quality and we are the ones who define taste. So on one level, everythings objective, based upon our assumptions, assumptions we all generally agree upon apriori in order to even have the discussion. On another level, everything's subjective, yes, but that's mostly irrelevant. And our assumptions, when we come here to talk about literature, are clear before the conversation begins: We can speak about things and we can understand each other because there are objective standards against which we measure what we say. As I said earlier, we may not be able to quantify them all and give them names and make them clear. But you know what I mean when I say a book was profound or trite or well written or mesmerizing. If you didn't, then we couldn't communicate at all.
KatG, I'm sorry. But as I've said to you many times before, we need to be able to operate on more than one level. The macro level tells us that nothing is certain, everything is subjective, our knowledge is all conjecture, free will is an illusion and so on. But on the micro level, we still need to function, and we can find common ground in order to discuss books, and we do understand what we're saying to one another when we have those discussions. To insist that all literary criticism is purely subjective and to thereby reduce the entire field to 'taste' is not productive. I can hate a book and admire it's appeal, it's style, it's technical proficiency etc. It's kind of like love. Tell me what it means? We use the word all the time. Can you define it so that we all agree on its meaning? And if you can't, does that mean it has no meaning for us in the context everyday discussion? Maybe it is just a word, but we use it and we make sense out of our use of it.
We're not perfect, and language is by no means the only way we communicate. But let's not get silly about it. We know we can talk about books and we know we can evaluate our reactions personally as well as weigh our observations against the history of similar observations regarding literature. And we don't need to believe in Platonic forms in order to converse and have valid opinions.
Last edited by Gary Wassner; October 30th, 2008 at 08:33 AM.
October 30th, 2008, 08:38 AM #94
Ranke, save the meandering ms. stuff for the Writing Forum. These are readers here. And you can kind of understand that they resent being told that their views of works they read don't count and yours do.
As for the stoned dragon in Name of the Wind -- there are two reasons that Rothfuss appears to use this. (Possible spoilers if you don't want to read.) Okay, three, because having a drug-crazed dragon is just really cool to some of us. But the main reasons are first of all so that Kvothe is able to kill it, because it can't be helped and it's an extreme danger. Otherwise, if it was just a creature of magic flushed out into the world, Kvothe, as Rothfuss has created him, would not have been able to do it. Second, is to play with the idea of heroes and legends and how legends get built, which is a major principle of the story. Instead of a fierce, deadly dragon that must be outwitted and out-fought, the dragon is a damaged, confused, drug-crazed animal who has been used. Instead of a fearless hero who tackles the dragon with sword or massive spell, Kvothe is a panicked young man who desperatelySpoiler:knocks the dragon dead by dropping a large wagon wheel on its head.
Now, you may think that Rothfuss was ill-advised to do this or didn't do it very well. But it certainly wasn't one of the problems I had with the story as it fit quite neatly into all the things Rothfuss was trying to do with the story -- it was the end of Kvothe's childhood, the creation of the first, big, iconic legend about him that wasn't true, the acceptance that magic couldn't solve everything, the knowledge that there were even more mysteries to deal with coming up.
We can go round and round about this and have an interesting discussion about it, though it should probably be in the Rothfuss thread or in the Writing Forum. I can also talk to you about the mixed viewpoint format structure versus a purely first person one and why Rothfuss did it that way and why I think it works for the story from a craft standpoint, in my opinion.
But the topic of this thread is for people to mention their experiences with books that they did not enjoy or did not enjoy totally that other people did. And if we're going to get upset that people have different experiences, we're going to be here all year. So again, I think we can stop the objective-subjective discussion -- move it to another thread if you like -- and go back to the topic proposed for the thread.
October 30th, 2008, 08:45 AM #95Ranke LidyekGuest
I agree with Gary.
Sorry, Joe.
And I can't agree with you, Kat concerning the "dragon". The "unreliable" narrator excuse only goes so far. And it doesn't go any further, in my opinion, than the heroic deconstructionist angle so many people use to explain away poor structure or execution...
That said, you're right in that we can move on from this. I will say no more about NotW.
Last edited by Ranke Lidyek; October 30th, 2008 at 08:49 AM.
October 30th, 2008, 10:27 AM #96
October 31st, 2008, 04:15 AM #97
Perhaps I misconstrued your post, but I don't think so. If you were, as I felt, offering your criticism of NotW as in any way objective then my post still stands. And if you were being objective, then you are declaring yourself as a person who can decide what is right or wrong with a novel, and this strays quite close to declaring yourself as the 'arbiter of good taste.' Because ultimately, if two people disagree over an objective fact, then one of them must be wrong.
Writing, as an artform is something that is meant to be judged on its qualities by an audience, it holds no value inherent value on its own. So you are right, ultimately there is no difference between good and bad writing. However, I can differentiate between what I consider good and bad writing, and I'm sure you can too, we as an audience are assigning a value to it, and this is completely subjective.
Last edited by Fruitonica; October 31st, 2008 at 04:41 PM.
October 31st, 2008, 11:03 AM #98
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Throughout the rest of your post you continued to mention the majority of readers. That is the point of drafting. While there really isn't an objective good or bad, there is some things readers like in a book and some things readers don't like in a book. There could be readers who would prefer an authors first draft to the actual book, but to the majority of readers, they like the final book better. This doesn't make the final draft objectively better than the first draft, it simply makes it more popular among the audience.
*Quick topic switch*
In a sense to argue among yourselves which book is better for the purpose of discussion is pointless. A person usually doesn't change their opinion of a book because someone else thought differently of it. You can state your opinion, and state why, but you can't always expect others to agree with you.
And I think the objective-subjective discussion is extremely important to this thread, because books living up to hype and deserving hype is purely subjective in the first place.
October 31st, 2008, 09:46 PM #99
Ranke -- I didn't say anything about structure; I just explained what seemed to be the reason Rothfuss had a stoned dragon as his dragon.
For the record, Ranke and I have had several perfectly profitable discussions about various titles on which we disagree or partially disagree. He's not advocating that all stories be written to a formula or that everyone should agree about stories.
No one here in this thread has to justify their opinion of a title in this thread, or prove that they came by that opinion one way or another. This is not a prove your life view thread. The thread has drifted away from books and into a debate about how authors write, for the most part, and people are getting very personal. Further, I think we've pretty much exhausted the subject and people are starting to just repeat themselves.
If you really want to continue this particular topic, I again suggest starting another thread.
November 2nd, 2008, 06:57 PM #100
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Wow. One moment I leave a post on my thoughts of why books get hype, and the next time I return to this thread, it's no longer about over-hyped books.
What's all this objective view, subjective view stuff about? This is supposed to be about books you didn't like that everyone else does.
November 3rd, 2008, 12:46 AM #101
November 3rd, 2008, 03:34 PM #102
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I would have to list the following:
1) The Dune series after Frank Herbert passed. I have read several and enjoyed learning the stories of the characters and ancient history, but (to me, at least) the books appear to be a money grab and have gotten ridiculous. (Happens a lot in commercial successes, they try to bleed the characters/storyline to death - really stretch out the storyline.)
2) Dark Tower series. Loved the first few, but see above. It was supposed to be a triliogy, the third announced the "conclusion" in the forth. The prices went up and the number of volumes has expanded - to eight or nine - and has he even gotten through his quest yet? (I quit at the fourth when it was continued) King gets really longwinded at times and this series is a cash generator.
3) Eragon series. Loved the concept of a child author and good first attempt, but three books now and a movie? The movie made little sense with an obvious aim for a sequel. The books are the same. Much was lifted from a "cutout" (and very, very predictable) fantasy line, with stilted dialogue and big questions in my head whether the young author had read the McCafferty series, as it was very similar. While I appreciate the youth of the author, after the first book, I dont want to get unimaginative plots and predictable storyline which are characatures ripped from fantasy novels I read twenty or thirty years ago.
4) The many endless series - especially those that become labelled "saga". Seems that today, once a character or plotline becomes popular, there will be sequel after sequel. Believe it or not, when I was much younger, L. Ron Hubbard was advertising the first "decology" (ten book series) on his books and, aside from Robert Adams, most series ended at three (if that far). To me, it seems that the more books, the more useless verbage - thus, a watered down book that makes you mad at the ending. (Especially when you pay $8.00 and waste a few days time on it.)


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Open simple prostatectomy is a surgery used to relieve urinary symptoms caused by an enlarged prostate, a condition called benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). Open simple prostatectomy is generally recommended for men who have severe urinary symptoms and very enlarged prostates. The surgery does not remove the entire prostate, as is done in a prostate cancer operation, but removes just the obstructive part of the prostate that blocks the flow of urine.
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Discussion in 'NFL Football Forum' started by Deus Irae, Jun 13, 2013.
League alters bag policy for safety, convenience | ProFootballTalk
Philadelphia, Jacksonville, Tennessee and Oakland teams will encourage people to bring nickelbags to games.
Going to have to be a lot more creative when trying to sneak drinks into the games now. We're just going to have to adjust accordingly.
This is quite the nonsensical rule. There are enough inane rules to keep us safe, adding this one is quite annoying.
It's BS that TD Garden only allows "clutch" bags. I bring my purse there for every Bruins game I've gone to this year and last. They do a cursory "search" as you are stampeding through the gates with thousands of your closest friends. When I first started reading I was wondering why the NFL wanted to take a hit to their pro shops outside the gates, but I see they've solved that by requiring clear bags. I guess all the stores at Patriot's Place don't mind switching to clear bags? Why this dumb overkill? Since when has someone brought a concealed explosive device into a game? It might hurt the NFL as when I cannot bring my purse somewhere, I usually leave all my credit cards in it in the car. Ladies don't like to go shopping without their purses, dummies.
great news!!!...now my old bag ex won't be able to stalk me at games when Bob Kraft and I escort the girls from the Foxy to home games....
Its really not that big of a deal.
I'm sure that that's exactly what this is really about. "Safety" my ass. When has someone at an NFL game gotten hurt due to a small bag?
Per PFT, no seat cushions allowed...they may "contain an explosive device."
I wonder what the old Mike Florio on PFT would have said about this maneuver. Now he's just apologizing for it. He would have been very critical before.
"And if fans don't like it, then they can watch the game from their home"
People still go to NFL games?
Yeah, nothing improves the in-stadium experience like having the league needlessly piss off about 98% of its ticket holders. :bricks:
Fine, I'll drape the blankets around my body and walk in that way.
Your call NFL, I'm not buying new blankets every game at your stores.
this is all to stop people from sneaking drinks and snacks into the stadium, with the price for a beer and a hotdog being over $10 they don't want u bringing your own
Its the world we live in now, embrace it.
I agree the rule is silly, but I call shenanigans on 98% of NFL fans bringing bags into the stadiums. The impact of this is negligible. Needless, but negligible.
Edit: I missed the part about the seat cushions. Ignore everything I just said.
Why would I do something as ridiculous as that?
I dont go to live NFL games so I dont care but I know people who do go and know why they would want to bring items. I dont see this going over well in Lambeau Field where just about everyone brings a seat cushion since the stadium has metal benches. Not gonna fly. Domed stadiums.... sure. Not any outdoor one with the weather.
Plus is this really about security and protecting people? If it was they would have to ban this stuff at all college games and at all sporting events. Is that going to happen? Then again this could just be about money. You want a seat cushion? Get them in the proshop. cha ching.
Either way the terrorists are winning because we are changing the way we live. Too may lefties in the country who wont be happy until we all live in our own personal bubbles.
But how much pro shop swag can you fit in a single 12"x6"x12" (max size allowed) bag? Doesn't seem like much, especially if any item is a bulky piece of clothing like a sweater.
Yet another reason to really, really crack down on terrorists and random mass killers. The show of force in Boston and Watertown in April to find and nail those guys is to be admired and repeated.
These *********s have made our grade schools armed fortresses, made catching an airplane a nightmare, and now made sporting events inconvenient.
The Boston Marathon Bombings advanced no cause, improved no one's quality of life, gave no one the right to vote, and served no purpose. That act of terror was completely senseless.
But if you are the NFL, an owner, or head of security at an NFL stadium, you have to stand back and say, if sick neglected kids like the Tsarnaev brothers could do that to the finish line at the marathon, they could do it on Thursday, Sunday or Monday night at one of our games.
You know, I want to be sure that you, me, my friends and my family are safe when we plunk down hundreds of dollars to go to a game. If this is what is necessary, so be it. But my frustration is directed at these self-centered, twisted *********s who screw everything up for everybody else.
Separate names with a comma.