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What is resilience? For you as a cancer survivor, it might be defined as the ability to recover, the strength to move forward, and the awareness of the needs of your own body.
Resilience is a strength that comes from within and is self-motivating. Research has shown that cancer survivors, when questioned, many times identify their own inner strength as one of the primary sources of strength as they experience and recover from a cancer diagnosis and treatment.
Many of you can identify with this concept, although it may be hard to put into words at first. Here are a few thoughts to consider as you reflect on your own resilience:
I have met so many survivors who have this amazing ability to survive and thrive despite the physical and emotional stress of cancer. Please share your thoughts on this topic. I would love to hear your opinion on what you feel is resilience and how this inner strength has helped you in your experience.
Sheryl M. Ness, R.N.
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I've read all ur comments and especially moved and honoured to read Jim's will to survive. I am taking care of my cousin who has been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, it looks like he's losing the battle emotionally. I don't know what to do to help him be more resilliant. Mid-Eastern pple are not very resiliant and I am feeling helpless and believe it or not there is nothing on the net for pple like me. (carers)
one thing I've found out and would like to share with u guys (cancer survivors, with re-occurances)pls pls pls check wher u r sleeping for GEOPATHIC STRESS. it plays a role in ur cancer, recovery and remission. don't call me crazy, but since I've been taking care f my cousin, I've tried it out on pple and magically, and to my astonishment and amazement,IT WORKS.
I wish u peace and health (I need it too!)
Knowedlge wants to be free, just like these articles!
I feel fearful all the time. I'm afraid of what the chemotherapy did to me. I don't know where people get inner strength. I don't know how people survive and thrive.
Hi Andrea,
I am recovering from breast cancer surgery, almost 1 year ago. Currently feeling fearful about recurrence possibilities and health not up to what I had hoped it would be. Struggling to cope effectively and do get emotional about other people's thoughts and feelings about my course of treatment.
I am sorry for the loss of your dear son and can so relate to your comments from Sept 7th about the guilt associated with dying from not trying hard enough to live. This is so important for me as well to try to get past worrying about what others may be thinking that I should do or not do. I read once that.. "There are no wrong answers. There are no wrong paths. Everyone is unique." So therein the freedom to handle things the best way for us. And also the Desiderata helps a lot... I wish you peace. It is so true also that until someone walks in your shoes they cannot completely understand. I find this isolating and lonely in a way I can't explain beyond just that. Thank you everyone for sharing. Wishing you all many great blessings.
i am a 3 time cancer survivor and my faith helps me get through things. i have 2 beautiful grandkids that have really helped me through my chemo sessions. now i have 3 grandkids and if weren't for the strenght of my family and friends don't know ahat i would have done.
I'm writing this as I'm recovering from shingles. The pain is bad more than my stage lV Hodgkins lymphoma. What has kept me going is my positive attitude,faith in God,mediation, myhusband , family, friends , and my pets. As my Dr. told me after my 2nd round of chemo I should have been dead but because of my inner strength I made it. I have a petscan in two weeks to see if Im cancer free. My motto is " From stage lV to stage no more!" Stay healthy my friends! Love you all. San.
This post is for Andrea. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with the group. I appreciate very much what you are saying...resilience cannot save a life. However, I felt it was a topic that survivors of cancer may be interested in discussing because I have heard the words "inner strength" so many times from this group. I am so sorry that your son was taken from you so early. I can't imagine how difficult this is for you and your family. Children have such amazing inner strength. His legacy will live on through you.
I am sorry about your difficult loss. I agree that resilience and inner strength does not necessarily save one's life. I recall thirty years ago an uncle standing at my Dad's bedside telling him not to give up and to fight his pancreatic cancer. It upset me at the time. My Dad was not leaving a family of six children by choice. He was a stong person. The cancer was stronger. His strength taught me alot though. I currently have cancer with a poor prognosis. I often think of how difficult it must be for parents to have a child with the disease. I have been fortunate to have lived a number of years-57. My guess is your son gave you and others so much and taught you so much in a short amount of time. I do believe that life's difficulties help us grow even though the emotional pain can often be so unbearable. It sounds like your son had more strength than many adults ever will or could hope to have. Cancer is just what it is.
I have a personal issue with the idea that resilience and inner strength will somehow save ones life. I think it gives a better quality of life and makes one a better patient,but there is guilt associated with dying because one "doesn't try hard enough to live". My 12year old son died of a brain tumor. No one tried harder than him to live or had more resilience.
Every day I can get up and out of bed is a gift. Some days I don't have motivation to do much, so I allow myself to have a low key day. On days I feel really good, I try to make the most of my day. Each day is a gift.
I recently read "There's No Place Like Hope" and recommend it for all cancer survivors.
It's been less than a year since I was diagnosed with stage IIIc ovarian cancer and I'm back on chemo. It's too soon to tell if this is working, but if it's not, I'll go on another treatment or clinical trial. My life is not over. As long as I can get out and spend time with friends and family, it's all good.
Husband is medical miracle 10 years stage 4 with mets rediagnosed every 3-4 years. Great surgeons at Moffitt - moved here for best liver surgeon 18 years ago since I knew it would go from rectal stage 3 to his liver mets stage 4 so found best liver surgeon. His team of surgeons have keep taking out mets and our local has given wonderful chemo tx and he is ALIVE. Always on Grand Rounds as a Case study and should be the most grateful pt. but since he no longer can have intercourse - he has removed himself from our bed over 8 years ago - has no interest in any intimacy says "it is not even in his mind". Got testosterone shots with no improvement but won't even consider cuddling - I have taken care of him and made it all happen with the best care and he has no concern for my feelings of abandonment. I have become hateful since he never came near me on our Aniversary weekend away that I planned. 39 years and he says of course he loves me! I think he resents living. Won't go out for dinner, anything that brings us close so we can hold hands or dance. NO physical contact is making me crazy and hateful. Forget counseling - not interested. He needs to wake up and say Thank You God and try to please me since
he has done nothing but think of himself. I am 59 and this has been tolerated way too long. Thanks for listening.
I just turned 65 and was recently diagnosed for the 3rd time w/recurrent ovarian cancer. I always continue to be fearful, sometimes down, but my friends in an ovarian cancer support group at Gildas Club are a tremendous support as is my wonderful, wonderful husband of 46 years. He's been a gem and totally by my side throughout. My daughter and 2 sisters, however, have deserted me. They cannot seem to deal with all this and that has made some of this more difficult too. No family understanding is very upsetting to me. I am just starting third chemo (have had one treatment so far; two drugs, one of them different than prior treatments. Praying this one works for awhile. I have seen 12 women pass since I started attending Gildas six years ago. Very sad, but our group is determined to be there for each other. We are strong support for each other and we all understanding how much we need each other. It has helped greatly.
God, my dogs, friends and family. Without their support I don't think I'd be here. One and a half years ago I was told I was terminal. I responded better than expected to some palliative radiation therapy. I have lymphoma. This spring a benign rectal mass was found. I had surgery which was hard on me. I've had max. chemo, turned down for a stem cell transplant, two rounds of radiation, and have been in the operating room four times in two years. I have had three different physicians tell me that God is the one keeping me here. I do believe he is. I felt from the get go that there was something more I was supposed to do while here. Maybe I've done it. Maybe it's yet to be done. God knows. I have a PET scan in two more days. I have been told my cancer is apt to return again. I am trusting in God with all of this. It is ultimately up to him. I also try to live as normally as possible. I thank God for the gifts he has given me. I recently had a birthday. Two days prior, the FDA approved a monoclonal antibody for my type of cancer. A gift. I have been told it might be used on me if/when my cancer reoccurs. I am not a church goer but God is close to me. What more can I say. I also
April 2010 I was diagnosed with stage IIIC ovarian cancer. Completing treatments after surgery, I was declared cancer free. Through this whole situation I went through denial, anger, grief and finally acceptance. It was a trial I have never been through before. One day I just woke up feeling better about my situation. The thing that I believe was my moment of terror was finding out half way through chemo, that the advanced stage ovarian cancers do allow you much chance at survival. I was so uninformed. Then I went on line and stated reading and was blown away. After I got through the stages and came to acceptance I felt more at peace than I ever had. Shock I was diagnosed with recurrence, the one thing ovarian cancer patients dread. I was upset but not uneasy about it. I had to go through the trials I did in order to get to the point I am at now. I know that the chances of dying from ovarian cancer is most likely, because it was only nine months cancer free status. Now I'm back on chemo, different drugs and different regime. It may work, It may not. I may have the opportunity to do a clinical trial, I may not. It doesn't matter how things end what matters is what I do from now until then. I will continue to deal with chronic pain from other diagnosis and the side effects from the first treatment (including seizures) and following ones. I am strong and I can deal with it. I have a great support system, help with rides, a support group, and medical team who cares.
God is my inner strength. My prayers & the prayers of family & friends is so important.I have 2 amazing daughters, a lot of friends & a church family, all lift me up when I am with them. I think good nutrition, exercise, leading a normal life (if possible), keeping a good mental outlook are all things that I work on everyday.
I kept busy. Firstly, I joined our neighborhood association as an officer. We have regular meetings and attend to community problems. I am also active in our group of HS classmates, as coordinator. We maintain our connections. Secondly and most important, trust in God. He is the only One who knows the ending of my life story.
Had bladder cancer 3 times...treatment and prayer cured it. Now have been recently diagnosed with stage IV ovarian cancer...unrelated to the bladder cancer I had. I live alone..husband left me over a year ago...and I am still going strong. I approach each day as a gift and trust God that my life is in his hands. I receive some support from family, friends church and cancer center...but most of the time it is just me and God....and He continues to sustain me.
I survived 3 cancers, first breast cancer, had a mastectomy, second CML a deadly leukemi and third colon/rectal had a Ilesotomy and reversal so I would say I am a survivor. My oncolotist said to me God is surely watching over you...for the past 12 years I have been a cancer survivor and all I can say is I thank God for my life and pray a lot and never question HIS plan for me. It isn't easy
but I do have the inner strength I need to survive and I take each day one at a time and have a positive outlook, things could definately be worse but now they are ok.
that is resiliance
First of all, my faith in God, knowing he is there when I need Him. Second, I try to get up each day and get dressed, make up my face, do my hair and look better. This helps a lot. Third, my three sons and husband . Fourth the Mayo Clinic Newsletters which lets me know that I am not alone in this battle.
Resilience is the ability to bounce back; to roll with setbacks; and the desire to get up when fatigue seems to hold every part of you down. I have been in counseling since 1995--off and on--whenever my deceased husbanda's health declined. I learned coping skills and developed deep reserves of strength. He fought two cancers and ultimately died. Resiliency made the difference. So, when I was diagnosed with multiple myeloma 2years ago, I asked my psychologist, how can I face this cancer, treatment and a stem cell transplant? He replied I already proved to have the inner strength. I just needed to "Git 'r done." so, I did. My journey has not been easy, but I have deep religious faith that sustains me, and a support group of women that lifts me up. I find fatigue to be my greatest enemy, so I develop patience as I ever have in my life. Hope is all I have, and I have been given today. I have reached complete remission for a second time by being resilient--rolling with thE setbacks, praying, living for others, and by being a model of strength for my fellow cancer survivors by encouraging them to carry on as best they can.
I am writing this on behalf of my now 14 year old daughter. she was diagnosed with a medulla blastoma at age 11 seven days from her 12th birthday. She went into surgery a child who could walk talk run play and ride her pony, she came out of the surgery paralyzed and mute- Posterior fossa syndrome 3 months later she started to wiggle a finger it has been 2 1/2 years she can talk ( not the same way she used to) She can walk in a walker. She and all of those who have faced cancer are the toughest most faith based people I have met. I am humbled in my daughters presence, and in the presence of all of the survivors who not only survive but thrive with there lives.
In some time i have some stress after chemotherapy by two cycle user Maratha/mabther condbnation.i sign expect the tip of finger of hand.All time i feel hungery to eat but advise me what is berth er for non hudgukin lymopoma to ensense my imunsystem.and i feel some weakness.
Nine months after I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I have sifted my priorities in life and now embrace the people and goals that are most important in my life. Truly, when a person is beset with his own limitations, there's is no way but to turn to God, accept his/her fate and rest his/her fate according to His will. I pray and hope and don't worry.
Once I realised I had faced and come to terms
the possibility of dying(after breast cancer
diagnosis)I seemed to have been given inner
strength from somewhere to deal with each day
as it comes and make the best of it.If I've
tackled the greatest of all fears,that is
fear of death then there is nothing
left to be afraid of.Anything is possible as
my mind is free.
I can look death in the eye and walk away I
can do anything.......
I should have added that I am a firm believer in God and miracles made by his Angels. I don't have much of a tongue left either.
I have been fighting Oral Cancer and it's after affects for over 4 yrs. I had Radiation, Chemo , Rad seed implants in my tongue and had to have all of my teeth removed. I live in pain 24/7 but my way. I was told to not overwork, stay out of the hot sun and just follow the general rules to survive. Well, I worked outside in my yard daily, hand dug a garden, go for sweets that are very soft or can be dipped in coffee , the same with food. I invent my meals. I can't have a feeding tube because of a Nissen Fundiplication on my Esophagus in 1966. Since surgery on my tongue and the neck dissection, I am still alive and kicking even after 2 more Aortic Anneurysm Surgeries. One in Jan of 2009 and another Nov 9 2010. I am hardheaded and do as I feel up to. Right now, my lower jawbone is dead and it broke on the left side this past Sunday and the same night, a piece of bone came out of the right side. I have been given up for dead a couple of times but have lived an almost normal and fun life for the past 4 yrs. Now it's time to make a decision on having surgery to lower my stomache to insert a feeding tube and to have my lower jaw removed. I am facing this decision at the moment and have no idea what to do. I am over 75 yrs old too. Any ideas?
maybe of all he survivors mine is different,i dont need a support group,when i feel sad i just talk to god and ask for strength.needed for the day,,i go walking as an exercise,and enough sun exposure to meet my needed vit d.help yourself,to stay alive dont give all the workload to God and you're doing nothing,,make yourself active,the moment you are inactive everyday,that's the beginning of your end...the keyword here is always think positive...above all believe that PRAYER CAN MOVE MOUNTAIN.GOD BLESS TO ALL
I am going to take copies too both support groupes I attend.Total agreement with the intend of message.Good health to you, Jack
My resilience is my faith in God.
For me having inner strength or resilience means two things. First, I made peace with God. If this cancer takes my life so be it. Secondly, I will do everything I can do to beat this Multiple Myeloma. I took part in a clinical research program until my body could tolerate it anymore. Now I do what it takes to battle the lingering side effects. I will be ready to fight again when the cancer comes back. I also do what I can in our community to help people understand a cancer diagnosis is not a death sentence. It is something to fight physically, mentally and spiritually. I have a goal to hold my first grandchild. I have no idea when that might be.
What does inner strength mean to you?
I am 46 years old. One month ago I went in for emergency surgery to remove a simple, but large, cyst on my ovary. I came out with a complete hysterectomy, appendectomy and told I had stage III ovarian cancer. All I could think was, "Well ok, so what do we do from here"? What else do you do right? I can't say I haven't shed any tears because I have. Some of the tears may have had something to do with the instant change in my hormones from the hysterectomy! My greatest fear was that I wouldn't be strong or a good witness for God. A friend reminded me that it is my fear that will allow God to carry and strengthen me. This will be his witness, not me! I don't believe we have to be incredibly strong or have a great desire to survive to get through cancer. My faith and my God are so much stronger than I ever could be! Even though this cancer is aweful, God has blessed me through out this in so many ways. I have awesome doctors, nurses, friends, family, boss. I could go on. What makes me strong is waking up every day expecting to see God show up in a big way. He hasn't let me down yet!
I was diagnosed with chronic leukemia seven months ago. I am totally responsive to my chemo pills. My oncologist tells me that I will eventually get a "Cancer Free" report, but will have a few undetected cells left. These remaining cells will require that I always take the same chemo, same strength forever. I have a terrible fatigue from the chemo, and it will be with me a long time.
To deal with this situation I have built a strong support system, bridging all my needs, as I see them. The support system is based on my devout Christian faith and working as a Healing Prayer Minister in my church, my oncologist, an internist, a urologist, an oncology counselor, a fitness trainer (I have always vigorously worked out on a structured schedule), Al-Anon, more help at home, beauty shop appointments, a supporting family and many friends, more help at home and painting (professional artist) I look forward to adding oncology Yoga. I advise all cancer patients to build a support team to fill their personal needs and use that team.
This is my 4th bout with cancer. I am 81yrs.i have had bladder, breast and now i'm 4th stage with my cancer spreading to my liver, neck and shoulder, I will not take anymore chemo, I take "Soursop" every morning, it have kept me going, I take vitamin "D" and I just keep busy. My friend and I have a cooking show on Public Access TV, we are going on our 6th yr.I will not let this curse get me down, when I do feel bad, I think of all the children who have this curse and what they are going through. My heart goes out to all my brothers and sister who are fighting this curse. Have Hope, Faith and Believe that someday they will find a cure. May GOD bless us all.
At age 66, I was diagnosed w/Transitional Cell Carcinoma of the kidney,
resulting in the removal of one kidney and ureta. Chemotherapy followed for 4 mos. after recovering from the chemo, I pledged to myself to live a full life. I found inner strength after diagnosis of the cancer, I never shed a tear, I endeavored to research my path of treatment which kept me occupied everyday. Now, 4 years later, I report for yearly checkups on time and try to keep myself unstressed
with at least 30 min, of exercise daily. Eventhough I have a few discomforts for a female age 70, it's great to be a survivor. My motto is "Sieze the moment" and surround yourself with positive people, I do not spend much time with people who complain and express themselves with negativeness.
I am 69 and in remission 6 weeks from ovarian cancer, I have always felt ethereal think thats the word-- I felt like I had someone guiding me--it was hard-I cant stand needles and just had to front up to it--but somehow I knew it wasn't my time....now I am in remission to keep myself busy I have decided to get my BA, so I am doing online UNI, it should take me 3 years..I am thoroughly enjoying it..I also went to Melbourne for 4 days with my daughter..my advice to anyone--is to have the treatment --try not to think about things to much and only allow positive thoughts..you will have bad days {chemo etc} but soon as you can kick it in the butt and do something enjoyable.
I agree with your observation. When I was diagnosed, the situation seemed so much less threatening because my neighbor, Chris had beaten this disease five years ago with a combination of grit and good care...I resolved to face it with the same fortitude as I witnessed in his battle. We joked, made fun of the hair loss and other side effects. It was paramount to my thinking that we were in control of this problem...not cancer..no woe is me attitude... just a positive knowledge that we can beat this thing.... unfortunately midway through my treatment, my wife was diagnosed and needed surgery... this was my only weak point when my concerns were with her condition... In my mind, my cancer was over and my concerns transfered to her welfare... As of my last pet scan I was "clean as a whistle"!!!!... my attitude is still strongly positive and if I run into a hiccup in the next few years, i am prepared to take up the battle in the same manner.
I found out I was going to be a grandma for the first time. This was why I fought so hard when I was first dianoised.Iwas told I had stage 4 lung cancer ,with under a year to live.So I first decided there was no way I was not going to be here to meet my first grand child.Since then,it's been 5 years and I now live every day for my beautiful granddaughter Addison.
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text:
|It's time to make tough decisions with the pitching staff.
There are 162 games in a baseball season. By all accounts, that is a long year. Sometimes players go through the motions, sometimes managers go through the motions. So much goes into a baseball season. It is more than winning games, it is maneuvering a roster, dealing with nagging injuries, and using players in the correct situations.
With all of that to deal with, there are games that define a season.
Saturday's game certainly looked like that for the Rockies. Players in the clubhouse might say the right things. They might pretend like they feel that the pitching will come around.
However, at some point, question marks have to creep into anyone's head. Especially when the offense isn't scuffling along and getting stung by a couple of mistakes by the starters. The Rockies offense is putting up more than enough runs and they are doing it against pitchers who aren't getting their cup of coffee in the big leagues.
The mental side of the game has to creep into the offenses approach. The thought that they are going to have to put up a number that would normally be double the amount of runs to win a typical game is a heavy feeling. At some point it weighs on the mind.
Tough decisions must be made. This isn't a situation where it is still early and there is time to wait for guys to work out their issues. If Esmil Rogers is too inconsistent to be counted on, it is time to move on. Middle relievers are a dime-a-dozen. Moving beyond Rogers is as simple as calling up the next man. The potential that is lost isn't significant to continue flipping a coin to decide which Rogers is going to show up.
Rex Brothers is young. However, the young excuse is getting old. If he is too young to be an 8th inning guy, then he should be moved to a different spot. If he can't be relied upon to be a dependable pitcher 80 percent of the time, then it is time to put him in a different spot.
The Rockies have surprised nearly everyone with their talent and fight. It was easy to believe that the pitchers would come around. No one was saying that this rotation would be anywhere near the best in the league, but they should have been better than they were in April. Assuming they would get better came naturally to most. However, at this point the assuming isn't getting this team anywhere.
The sad reality is, the pitchers are who they are. If they aren't talented enough to pick up victories--or simply good enough to keep their team in the game--then they should be replaced. With the exception of Juan Nicasio, and perhaps Drew Pomeranz, who seems to be finding his way, there is no one in the rotation who would be missed if they were replaced. If Jeremy Guthrie can't contribute shortly after returning from the disabled list, even he should be replaced. If the Rockies have depth in the minor leagues, it is time to see what they can do.
As good as the Jamie Moyer story is, the leash should be short. If he can't protect a six run lead, and make it more than five innings, it is time to move on.
Christian Friedrich, a former first round draft pick, and Alex White, a first round pick of the Indians in 2009, are as ready as they are ever going to be. Tyler Chatwood, acquired in the Chris Iannetta trade and on the Opening Day roster as a long reliever, should get his chance to start. It is time to see what they can bring to the table. If they aren't quite ready, the reality is, they couldn't be any worse than what the team is trotting out their on a daily basis currently.
Hard-thrower Zach Putnam is available in Triple-A to give the bullpen some additional help.
If it truly is a lack of talent on the mound, and not coaching, as the Rockies have made very clear, then it is time to replace the talent on the mound. It is time to see what the kids on the farm can do. If they blow six run leads, it wouldn't be any worse than what the big league pitchers are currently doing.
It is time to make moves before the offense gives up on the team and quits fighting. After a game like Saturday night's, it might be too late already.
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subset: commoncrawl


text:
To The Economist:
The name has to be "Germany and the former Yugoslavian Republics.
The pivot in the former Yugoslavian Republics EU ambitions."
The Balkans included many other Contries-Greek, Bulgaria, Albania and parts of Italy, Romania and Turkey
Reader comments are listed below. Comments are currently closed and new comments are no longer being accepted.
To The Economist:
The name has to be "Germany and the former Yugoslavian Republics.
The pivot in the former Yugoslavian Republics EU ambitions."
The Balkans included many other Contries-Greek, Bulgaria, Albania and parts of Italy, Romania and Turkey
"Demographically Kosovo has been lost for Serbia already under Tito."
Then there is a hope (25 years away) for Latinos in Florida or California – precedent is set only Albanian style of human organ trafficking is missing. Kosovo theft was systematized in Washington with the silent nod from Berlin – Europe is better place for al Qaida than NY.
Replace human organ trafficking with cocaine and marijuana. A lot of similarities between Kosovo and Florida.
Well as long as the French have lost interest in the region, all will be good. Germans are respected everywhere in the Balkans, so teaching them about the neighborhood is not a bad idea.
Why Albania has a catchy byline to this year's tourism add targeting Germans: 'Go to Albania, your car is already there';)
But the French never were interested in the region, Austria, Italy and Germany were
for bad reasons the Jews and the Serbs paid the hard price
keep it up the German good relations with the Croats, the Bosnians and the Kosovars, all of these people were good Germany's allies before
ol' love never dies
I am not sure if the German public is ready for more enlargement after the continuing disasters with the Greeks and Greek cypriots.
If, however, we admit the Croats we cannot very well keep out the Serbs.
To admit Bulgaria and Romania was a mistake. They should have been kept on close watch for another 10 years as associated members to ensure that corruption will really be flushed out of the system if, indeed, this is possible at all.
According to some Croatian friends the whole region, including Croatia itself, is just as corrupt, if not even more so, than Greece. The fakelaki system is a way of life there. Nothing gets done without backhanders or connections.
We should put everything on hold until the present problems involving Greece, Cyprus and Italy have been resolved . If they should decide by themselves that the EU is not for them in view of the present mess, we should agree with them in all friendship.
Romania was a mistake according to you?
Romania and Bulgaria from 2007 when they joined until 2012(excluded) received a total of 8 billions euros from the EU budget).
Spain and Greece in the last 25+ years since they joined received 200 billions euros.
I think that the mistake was Spain together with Greece, Portugal and Ireland. This 4 countries will cost the EU the euro project and will be the downfall of the Union. Greece is the Achilles' heel of the Union.
You should stop worrying about Romania and Bulgaria and be really frightened with what it's happening in Spain and Greece.
Italy too was a mistake, with its tremendous corruption level. For me the true errors were Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal. They should've not join the Euro, not before fix the huge amount of problems that they have.
German foreign policy on the balkans has, traditionally, played second fiddle, yes.
With one exception: the diplomatic recognition of croatia and slovenia during the breakup of yugoslavia. For which the then foreign minister, Genscher, is still routinely pilloried in english-language academic circles.
In german-language academic and diplomatic circles, the story is that Genscher had an agreement to do this with his french and british colleagues. But that story, of course, never gets told.
The moral of the story, for me? Germany has to act via multilateral, EU institutions in the balkans. It can no more be an "honest broker" in the balkans than the UK could be, over northern ireland.
There's just too much history there. "Some bloody stupid thing in the balkans" as a trigger for european war, was a danger that Otto von Bismarck forsaw back in the 1880's.
And the danger is still there. Tred lightly and cautiously, and leave it to Catherine Ashton to take the lead.
"In german-language academic and diplomatic circles, the story is that Genscher had an agreement to do this with his french and british colleagues"
Mitterrand and the British PM of the era were reluctant to interven. The Balkans were never under France and or Britain sphere of influence. It's Germany that played the part, that Sarkozy/Cameron did for Libya, but for the Balkans. Kohl went a few times to Washington praying the Americans to come into the conflict with NATO
First of all it was Iceland that recognized Croatia first, and it was not a Genscher's whim. Second, where are these English circles? Multilateral EU and UN institutions in ex-Yugoslavia didn't do anything, and their role was was very negative, just prolonging the agony, and their performance on the ground was pathetic. So what if Germany takes a leading role in the region? The whole place, including Hungary, Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, ex-YU just depend on it. If you want to cut that dependence, well one can over turn to the non-aligned movement. As for TJ, it's a mistake to place Croatia in the same basket as Serbia, Macedonia and Albania, Mimica was there just because he'll be the Croatian EU commissioner.
On the other hand there are many Serbs, who are sensible enough to realize that Kosovo is long time lost and there's no point in denying it. The trouble with Serbia is that the kind, the intelligent, the non aggressive and the non chauvinistic people have no voice. And about Bulgarian and Romanian membership - well, we'll see if it was a mistake or not with time.
You are implying that Serbs who disagree with you about Kosovo are stupid, aggressive, chauvinistic and rude? What is wrong with you?
No, that's what you are implying. Would you admit that there are other voices beside the ones putting Kosovo over all? Not all the Serbs go around attacking foreigners and demolishing Belgrade, right? Guess they're part of the society too. But, somehow, they're never in the picture, that goes out. You tell me why.
I guess that you do not understand what the verb "to imply" really means. You also probably do not understand what it means "to stereotype" or you really do not care. Regardless, I will admit that there clearly are Serbian politicians who claim that Kosovo is lost and that the country should focus on other things. But the vast majority of people disagree with those politicians. That is all part of democracy and I really hope you understand what democracy means.
Demographically Kosovo has been lost for Serbia already under Tito. As much as I understand those who have a hard time to admit this, it is usually better to face realities as they are than hanging on to (expensive) dreams which make peaceful solutions more difficult day by day. This has nothing to do with Serbia's possible EU membership; but I think that favorable territorial trade-off negotiations are more feasible now, than they will be in 10 years from now.
Peaceful solutions are certainly not the only ones. Illegally occupied province of Kosovo AND METOHIJA will be reclaimed by all means available, and war IS INDEED a means in international law.
If YOU ARE the Republic of Serbia, and you think so . . . Go ahead, knock yourself out again!
War is appealing only to those who have never experienced it.
As for Kosovo, I think this is what is going to happen: Serbia will not have to recognize Kosovo as a country. After all, that is what Catherine Ashton and Hillary Clinton said. But the dialogue among the two sides is of the essence. Regardless of what Serbs say, Kosovo will probably function as an independent country. The best thing Kosovars can get is a observer-chair in the UN because China and Russia can always veto against permanent membership. Also, it would be unconstitutional for Serbia to recognize Kosovo. Violence is unlikely to happen but there is a growing nationalism among the Albanians who think that they can unite Kosovo, Albania and few minor parts of Macedonia and Greece under one border. That is a ridiculous thought and Berlin and DC expressed their annoyance. This is not ideal solution for either side but it is a compromise. Political tides in the next 20-30 years will determine the fate of Kosovo. In my humble opinion and as ridiculous as it will sound, I think that the situation will favor Serbia's side because the EU and USA are facing incredible amount of problems while BRICK countries are growing fast. And these countries favor Serbia. There are a lot of assumptions here though.
Of course I am not in the Republic of Serbia.
That was a rather unintelligent and inappropriate comment, considering that it was Germany that started the last two world wars, and that Britain has led a colonial war against Argentina within our global memory.
Granted: the grocer's daughter in charge of the UK polity at the time did not send her own son to war; Mark Thatcher was lost on the Paris-Dakar rally about the same time and a search party of UK agents was sent after him, whilst Prince Andrew (whatever we may think about his ex-wife selling introductions to him at exhorbitant prices) was risking being if not killed then certainly inconvenienced in that war.
There, I said it, "war". A war it was. Just like the one 1939-1945 when Germany snatched golden teeth of its butchered Jewish victims. Just like Croatia did with its Serbian victims at the Jasenovac death camp.
If you are not "in the Republic of Serbia" why, then, do you act like you were.
The difference between the Falklands and Kosovo is that the majority of the population of the Falklands wants to belong to Britain, while a majority of the population of Kosovo doesn't want to belong to Serbia.
The will of the concerned people is more relevant in today's conflict settlements than 'historic considerations'. This is why Kosovo will never become an integrated part of Serbia again - at least not against the will of a majority of its people.
BTW, it's the year 2013 . . . and not the year 1933. This fact might have escaped your attention.
Are you aware how many Serbs were forced to move out from Kosovo? Have you heard of Zuta Kuca - the house in which the Albanians dissected kidnapped Serbs and sold their organs on the black market? Serbs were systematically, through force or intimidation, moved out of the area and only 100,000 of Serbs live on Kosovo now. Not to mention how many Albanians immigrated to Kosovo in the last 15 years and that my friend, affects the numbers. Yes, the "Kosovars" do not want to be part of Serbia now but I do not understand how can you justify something that was committed through such atrocities. The only reason Berlin and EU ignore what I just said is because they have political interest to ignore these facts. To give you a paralleled example, the Dutch government had to resign over what happened in Srebrenica (it is the Dutch soldiers who failed to prevent the horrors, the question is why). What would have happened with the winner of Nobel Prize for peace last year if it were revealed what really happened on Kosovo? I am not saying the Serbia is innocent here but the situation is completely different from what you see in the mainstream media. And please, spare me from guilt-tripping and washed-out phrases of American, German, British and French politicians about the "reality" on Kosovo. The key problem here is, the rising anti-Serbism since the 90s. Nobody addressed 200,000 Serbian refugees from Croatia, the destroyed personal property (my mother's house in Croatia included), victims (since apparently no Croatian/Bosnian officers and soldiers are apparently guilty in the Tribunal of Hague for the massacres against Serbs). Don't you find it at least a little odd that Yugoslavia broke apart 20 years ago and now all the countries want to in a sense unite in the EU? These facts might have escaped your attention.
You're barking up the wrong tree. I am fully aware of the role Alija Izetbegović played in the prelude of the Bosnian war. I also believe that the West sided with the Bosnian Muslims in order to have free hand against Muslims in other parts of the world. It was a tradeoff.
In the case of the Kosovo all I'm saying is, be realistic and look forward ... not rearward always.
your assumptions of how a person in or not in specific countries acts or does not act are hideously inadequate.
Besides, a rogation requires a question mark at the end to mark it as a question.
And the difference between Kosovo AND METOHIJA with 1846 Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries 3-5 centuries OLDER THAN the arrival of Albanians to Europe from the Caucasus via Sicily in the 15th centurty on the one, and the Argentinian islets of Malvinas under British occupation which have no traces of human settlement for 6 centuries after the Serbain churches and monasteries were built on the other hand, is that Kosovo AND METOHIJA is forever unalienably Serbian land, whilst the issue of Britain accepting decolonisation and withdrawing its occupying force (including a handful of civilians) from the Malvinas is a matter of years, not even decades.
If Romania and Bulgaria were a mistake (these 2 countries from their entry in the EU both, together, received a total of 8 billions euros in 6 years) how do you call Greece and Spain (which in 25+ years of membership received both a total of 200 billions euros)?
Do you call Spain and Greece a major clusterf*** of gargantuan proportions?
Oh.. add Portugal and Ireland to those 2 countries from the West.
I'm Romanian and I believe Romania should exit the EU.
If after 25+ years of membership countries like Spain, Greece, Portugal and Ireland, after hundreds of billions of euros thrown at them, weren't able to construct for them functional economies, I believe that it's quite clear that this "union" it's a major failure.
We can only hope that the British will exit the "Union" thus setting in motion a chain of events that will lead to the collapse of the "Union". So help us God.
I understand your point but it is much easier said than done. Kosovo and Metohija is not an ex-girlfriend so you can simply say "be realistic and move on." Serbia has made its mistakes with Albanians but was severely punished. Majority of Serbs think that they were treated unfairly when the wars started in 90s including the illegal bombing of Serbia and Montenegro in 1999, with radioactive bombs and bombs banned by Geneva convention. Having that said, it would be an illusion to think that if Serbs gave up on its land that things would improve. That is why I tend to look back. The big picture of Western politics towards Serbia in the past 25 years suggests that Serbs cannot trust the West and that they can only rely on themselves and their efforts. Serbs realize that the Balkans area is a "farm" for countries like Germany/UK. It is not coincidental why there is a word in British language "balkanization", which means " divide a territory into small, hostile states." Interesting, huh?
The German term "Balkanisierung" (engl. Balkanization, french Balkanisation) was actually used for the first time September 1918 by the German politician Walther Rathenau in an interview published by the New York Times in the aftermath of the First World War. Rathenau referred to the allied plans of dismembering the Austrian and Ottoman empires (on the Balkans).
This process of disintegration - then also strongly promoted by Serbia with the demand for "independence of the Southern Slavs" (Yugoslavs), reflected in the state-organized assassination of Austria's Head of State (Archduke Franz Ferdinand) and his wife by Serbian terrorists, is actually lasting until now. Thus, one could, historically correct, say that Serbia is now harvesting what it had sown June 28, 1914.
Ever after the Treaty of Versailles any process of fragmentation of political and geographical units that exist in multiethnic states or the willful dismemberment of a large empire is called "Balkanization".
With all due respect to you, I completely disagree with your previous post. Here are some remarks:
You said Serbian "terrorists" killed Franz Ferdinand, right? Because I thought that they were freedom fighters who fought for liberty...Who are the Albanians on Kosovo then - terrorists or freedom fighters? Why did you use the word "terrorist" in your argument? The words you choose might seem irrelevant to you but they mean everything to me, Serbs and even the Albanians. Also, how much do you know about the actual assassination of the Archduke? Because as far as I know, the day he was killed by Gavrilo Princip, there were a few other assassination attempts which were unsuccessful.
These people who tried to kill the Archduke were Bosniaks - the group they were all part of was called Young Bosnia and it included primarily nationalist Serbs as well as some nationalist Croats and Bosniaks. If things were a tiny bit different that day, a Croat or a Bosniak would have killed Ferdinand. It is highly unlikely that things would be different today if such a scenario actually occurred.
As far as the sowing and reaping is concerned, you mentioned that Serbs fought for the independence of the Yugoslavs. Well, Albanians are not Slavs at all. While your conclusion is very interesting, it would only be valid within the scope of Yugoslavia. It appears that you are connecting dots to make your argument seem strong.
The definition of Balkanization or as you mentioned "Balkanisierung" implies the third party that is behind all of it. So, let us talk again about ex-Yugoslavia countries, Greece, Bulgaria and Romania. Today, all of these Balkan countries lost their independence because they are either in, or going to be in EU. They cannot do anything on their own anymore because they are poor, indebted or simply hated. No one can do anything anymore without the consent from Berlin. All of these countries have great resources that can be colonized and monopolized and they also have very cheap labor force.
Do not forget that Yugoslavia was once powerful nation with a great industry. If Yugoslavia was still that same country today it would have had a say in the EU, or would have been against the EU. But Berlin and DC do not like anything that could hinder their globalization. Hence, "divide et impera."
It seems that you are quite 'blindsided' educated about the events that lead to WW I.
I could cite from Luigi Albertini's "Origins of the War of 1914", by Oxford University Press or from the Academic American Encyclopedia or from Joaquim Remak's "Sarajevo: The Story of a Political Murder", Criterion Books, however, these works are not online to verify.
So I checked with Wikipedia. And also Wikipedia states the same facts.
(Quote): The Black Hand (Crna Ruka) was formed . . . on 9 May 1911 . . .
Many members were Serbian army officers. The professed goal of the group was the creation of a Greater Serbia, by use of violence, if necessary. The Black Hand trained guerillas and saboteurs and planned political murders. The Black Hand was organized at the grassroots level in 3- to 5-member cells, supervised by district committees and by the Central committee in Belgrade whose ten-member Executive Committee was led by Colonel Dragutin Dimitrijević (also known as Apis).
Black Hand members held important army and government positions. Crown Prince Alexander was an enthusiastic and financial supporter. The group held influence over government appointment and policy. The Serbian government was fairly well informed of Black Hand activities. . . . By this point, standing up and saying 'no' to the Black Hand was a dangerous act. Political murder was one of their well known tools.
It was also in 1914 that Colonel "Apis" Dragutin Dimitrijević (and others) decided that Archduke Franz Ferdinand, the heir-apparent of Austria, should be assassinated. Towards that end, three young Bosnian-Serbs were recruited and trained in bomb throwing and marksmanship. Gavrilo Princip, Nedeljko Čabrinović and Trifko Grabež were smuggled across the border into Bosnia via a chain of underground-railroad style contacts.
The decision to kill the Archduke was apparently initiated by Apis, and not sanctioned by the full Executive Committee. Some of those involved probably realized that their plot would invite war between Austria and Serbia. They had every reason to expect that Russia would side with Serbia. . . . Others in the Serbian government and some on the Black Hand Executive Council were not as confident of Russian aid.
When word of the plot percolated through the Serbian leadership, Apis was supposedly told not to proceed. A half-hearted attempt was made to intercept the young assassins at the border, but they had already crossed. In retrospect this 'recall' appears to make Apis look like a loose cannon (not under government control), and the young assassins as independent zealots. In actual fact however, the 'recall' took place a full two weeks before the Archduke's visit. The assassins idled around in Sarajevo for a whole month. Nothing more was done by the Serbian leadership to stop them. (Endquote).
If this isn't the description of an 'epitome of state-organized terrorism', then I really don't know what is.
Well, I went to an elementary school in Serbia, high school (gymnasium) in Germany and a university in USA that has a liberal arts curriculum. If that is blind-sided type of education, then I guess I am "blind-educated." Most people tell me it is diverse but what do I know. What about you? I really want to know what kind of education is eye-opening, liberal and the proper one. I did not want to comment on this but I noticed that you tend to ignore the gist of my posts. If you do not believe me, just scroll back and see it for yourself - i.e. off all the important things I wrote in one comment, you chose to cling on the term Balkanization. Did it become personal?
Now, as for the Wikipedia article, I do not understand what are you trying to achieve by posting it? I mentioned Gavrilo Princip who obviously was a Serb and I also mentioned other individuals who are claimed to be Bosniaks. I see now that they were actually another Serb and a Bosnian Serb, so there I was wrong but I do not think it makes substantial difference. I said they were members of Young Bosnia which is also true. Black Hand's mission was to liberate ALL Yugoslavs (that my friend, as you already know, includes Croats, Slovenians, Bosniaks, etc.) from Austria-Hungary and to unite Serbs with Serbs who lived in the nearby lands. Thus, you can deduce that the group wanted to help all Serbs live under one border and help other people live free from the foreign authority. You cannot blame them since the Austria-Hungary was an imperial power and people wanted to be freed from oppression. On the other hand, Black Hand was a group of nihilists and was also responsible for the assassination of the Serbian King Alexander I Obrenovic. Was this article meant to make me believe Serbia as a state acted in a terrorist manner? What country are you from? Because what you are doing now is very unfair and connotes to double standards. Tell me where you are from and I will prove it to you that your government acts and thinks otherwise. Unless of course, your country has double-standards and you simply listen to what your politicians say. Or we can find compromise that there is no real difference between terrorism and fighting for liberty. That way, Americans are terrorists, Serbs are terrorists, Russians are terrorists, you name it.
Now, your comments on this topic suggests, but I could be totally wrong though, that you hold Serbs responsible for the WWI. As if imperialism, the scramble for Africa, broken alliance among Germany, A-H and Russia because A-H and Russia could not agree on the Balkans did not contribute the world's major powers to be in the irreversible position. As if the assassination and the terms of A-H to Serbian government were not made in such a way that A-H knew Serbia would reject. So the assassination was an inducement but not the real reason of WWI. That is the way I learned history in Serbia AND in USA.
If you are so fond of literature of historical importance, why don't you read a book called "Na Drini Cuprija"(The bridge on Drina) by the only Literature Nobel Prize winner in the Balkans, Ivo Andric. Trust me, you would be mind-boggled. Who knows, you might even change your opinion a little.
Your perception of the EU and the Balkan countries doesn't match the facts. On the basis of the facts, no country was ever 'forced' to join the E.U.
Rather the opposite is true: All new member countries had to apply for membership prior to accession. If a country doesn't apply it doesn't become a member, as simple as that.
Fact is further that before the US mortgage crisis triggered the Euro crisis, new members were lining up for EU-membership. No country needed to be 'pushed' to join. Greece even falsified its fiscal data in order to be allowed to join the Euro currency. When Bulgaria and Rumania had to wait 2 years longer before they were fully accepted, public frustration was intense in these two countries.
Yes, both countries are poorer than most other EU members, but they are still better off than similar countries which are not in the EU.
The EU operates comprehensive approval procedures that ensure new members are admitted only when they can demonstrate they will be able to play their part fully as members, namely by:
• complying with all the EU's standards and rules
• having the consent of the EU institutions and EU member states
• having the consent of their citizens – as expressed through approval in their national parliament or by referendum.
The first step is for the country to meet the key criteria for accession. These were defined at the European Council in Copenhagen in 1993 and are hence referred to as 'Copenhagen criteria'. Countries wishing to join need to have:
• stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;
• a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU;
• the ability to take on and implement effectively the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union.
And: The EU reserves the right to decide when candidate countries can join. It also needs to be able to integrate new members. This would be also true for Serbia and Albania.
And I don't share your pronouncement that Yugoslavia was once a "powerful nation with a great industry". I was in Yugoslavia several times during the Tito era. My impression was rather of a country extremely backward in development compared to core European countries or even compared to Greece.
I already know all of that since I hear about it every day in the news. Again, I do not understand what do you mean by your latest out-of-the-blue post. I never said nor suggested that anyone is forced to join EU. As the matter of fact, I am against Serbia joining the EU because Serbia is going to be eaten by big economies as it has happened to all EU countries in the area. And I do not even include politics. And yes, those countries are better off than Serbia today but keep in mind that Serbia went through horrible, costly wars, hyperinflation, NATO bombing that destroyed factories and infrastructure and self-proclaimed cessation of Kosovo.
Greece's books were cooked by Goldman Sachs and keep in mind that Greece organized Olympics only 9 years ago(!?). There were recent riots in Slovenia's capitol and another city against the government and corruption. Bulgaria's government resigned, Romania is doing a little better, it seems. Croatia is shaking. Serbia is the worst, although there seems to be a huge expected influx of investments from Russia, China and UAE since the new government won the election in May.
As for Yugoslavia, you're wrong. It had greater GDP than Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. I understand these countries are not really powerful country examples, but my point is, Yugoslavia was way more powerful than all its states today. All of this was when Yugoslavia was a closed economy. You can hear about Yugoslav standards compared to the standards today from every older man who live in any of these countries. Ruined Yugoslavia is an easy prey to the big economies as opposed to war-free united Yugoslavia that would have had constant growth...
Kosovo was under the Ottoman rule since 1389, and since the great migration of Serbs very few of them left. By using your logic, one may ask what happened to the Turkish population who were the majority in all towns found in Serbia today? Then Turkey has the same right to claim Belgrade back, is that so? Yugoslavia was broken apart because it was a bankrupt communist dictatorship, rotten to the core.
"As for Yugoslavia, you're wrong. It had greater GDP than Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. I understand these countries are not really powerful country examples, but my point is, Yugoslavia was way more powerful than all its states today. All of this was when Yugoslavia was a closed economy. You can hear about Yugoslav standards compared to the standards today from every older man who live in any of these countries."
Yugoslav standards were low, look at every statistic handbook from 1970's, the number of cars, TV's and phonelines per 1000 people, and Yugoslavia as a whole lagged even behind Poland and Hungary, not to mention GDR and Czechoslovakia. And Yugoslavia was not a closed economy, it was heavily dependent on western loans, and when the US interest rates rose, because of American internal reasons, it just went broke, together with Romania, Poland, North Korea, etc. In brief Yugoslavia was ruined from the very beginning.
"As for Yugoslavia, you're wrong. It had greater GDP than Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. I understand these countries are not really powerful country examples, but my point is, Yugoslavia was way more powerful than all its states today. All of this was when Yugoslavia was a closed economy. You can hear about Yugoslav standards compared to the standards today from every older man who live in any of these countries."
Yugoslav standards were low, look at every statistic handbook from 1970's, the number of cars, TV's and phonelines per 1000 people, and Yugoslavia as a whole lagged even behind Poland and Hungary, not to mention GDR and Czechoslovakia. And Yugoslavia was not a closed economy, it was heavily dependent on western loans, and when the US interest rates rose, because of American internal reasons, it just went broke, together with Romania, Poland, North Korea, etc. In brief Yugoslavia was ruined from the very beginning.
By using logic, you will keep in mind that the Turks were invaders and an imperial power, like Austria-Hungary or Romanov's Russia; all three of them major player in the area. Ottomans won in 1389 but you ignore that before victory, Kosovo was Serbia's. During the Great Migration of Serbs, Serbs left Kosovo. After the WWI, Serbs returned to Kosovo, while the Turks either left or were killed by the Allied countries, Serbia included.
And yes, Yugoslavia had too many problems. But why do you think that cessation is better than fighting for democracy? Slobodan Milosevic was a dictator and he was defeated by the Serbian people, with help and funding from the West. My questions are, why Western countries did not help and fund Yugoslavian people to obtain democracy so the country could remain one whole country? Was it impossible? Could they have prevented the Yugoslav civil war? Could they have prevented the bombing of Serbia? I cannot give you an exact answer because I have no clue. But seeing how they treat people here, I believe that they could. But they put own benefits above people's lives. But that's just my opinion.
I just looked at the article on Wikipedia. Look at the graph that shows country's GDP by year. It goes from 1950 to 1992.
I basically agree with what you wrote.
Yet, I don't agree that "the EU" has devious intentions when accepting a new applicant. It is rather so that EU membership brings a corset of rules and regulations with it that might hamper state-individual adjustments which otherwise could be made to advance that specific economy.
Since these rules and regulations are mainly implemented to equalize competition among the strongest players, such as Germany, France, Holland or Austria, they might at the same time put those economies at a disadvantage which are still in need of more leeway to achieve international competitiveness; e.g. by shielding home industries through import barriers and/or via targeted subsidies, this at least until that specific economy gained fully fledged competitiveness on the international markets.
To be fair, it also has to be acknowledged that the EU (Brussels) was quite reluctant to accept Bulgaria and Rumania as full EU members for exactly these reasons, but that these countries tried to storm into the EU anyway, mainly for political reasons and because of the huge structural and regional EU funding they receive.
However, this funding also functions as a drug: Those countries' politicians became quickly addicted to it, often using the funds for personal enrichment in a corrupt environment or simply boost their country's social budgets (in order to buy public vote) instead of applying these funds to structural reforms and regional developments for what they're actually intended.
As a last point: Yugoslavia under Tito had an economic and political advantage over countries like Bulgaria, because it was a non-aligned socialist state with semi-capitalist structures, due to Yugoslavia's self-liberation in WW II, while most Eastern-bloc countries were part of Soviet Union's inflexible COMECON empire, and were also strictly communist.
You're right about the reasons why countries have to make certain steps in order to join the EU but I am of the different opinion about the intentions of certain EU countries. They patronize weaker countries all the time.
For example, when I look at how Germans look down on the Greeks, it really make me want to throw up. As some German politician/economist (I am not sure which one of the two is he) said couple days ago, the reason why Germany after WWII became what it became today, is not simply because of the disciplined, hardworking mentality of the German people but simply because the world decided to forgive all the debt that Germany owed to the world, despite horrible acts and intentions of this nation and losing the war.
I understand that Greeks are very corrupt (I am actually very familiar about it) and that corruption is the main reason why Greece is so heavily indebted but who are Germans to judge anyone? Moreover, I see Germans look down on and make fun of Greeks on many occasions, as for example, before the soccer game they called them "Hell-Ass" in major newspaper but they act differently towards Italy and Spain which are bigger threats to the EU. What is the point of EU if you are going to make fun of its members states just because you are in the better position or have more aircraft carriers? That behavior reminds me of social conditioning. I know I will probably sound even more ridiculous to you, but perhaps EU is not so liberal after all.
Structurally, EU is not even remotely close to the USA and it never will be because people inside the borders are way too culturally different. I think the politicians know that and they take advantage of the situation.
Interesting, I did not think that way about Yugoslavia so you are right regarding the advantageous position of the country compared to the Eastern Bloc countries. However, that does not explain the fact that Yugoslavia had a rank of 24th largest economy in the world by GDP in 1991. And 1991 was not the best year and as far as I know, the best year was somewhere in the early to mid-eighties. If you want to check my info simply google "yugoslavia gdp wiki" and look to the right for the quick info and for the graph.
Also, if you want to learn more about Yugoslavia, you can watch a two-hour long documentary called "the weight of chains." You can simply watch it on YouTube.
We should be very careful when taking about "the Greeks", "the Germans", "the Americans", unless we really mean each and everyone in this group.
I am not aware that "the Germans" look down on "the Greeks". The Greek society as a whole may be criticized because of the wide-spread 'fakelaki'-culture. But this doesn't mean that the average German "looks down" on honest Greeks.
As a matter of fact, Germany payed off the last chunk of WW I reparations, imposed on it in Versailles by the Allies, on Sept 28, 2010.
I also doubt that it was a German newspaper that called the Greek football team "Hell-Ass", simply because this English appellation doesn't make sense in German ("hell" means 'light' in German, and "ass" is 'ace' in German).
I also don't believe that the EU is comparable with the USA. The EU is a voluntarily association of independent nations, while the USA is one united single nation. These are different concepts.
About Yugoslavia: I am familiar with the country from before the break up (I even read cyrillic) and I visited Croatia and Slovenia most recently.
I am sorry if the way I worded my thought offended you or some fellow readers. Certainly, not every German thinks like that about every Greek and vice-versa. As you said, German society tends to criticize Greek society. Maybe the next few paragraph would shed some more light on what I truly meant.
I translated the term Hell-Ass, it was actually written Hölle-Ass. I was too lazy to look for the letter "ö" since I do not use that kind of font and because I thought you would have trusted me. If by now I still have to explain every little detail thoroughly, then I doubt that anything I wrote had any purpose. If I sound like an aggravated person who wants to blame somebody else, without any evidence or at least stimulating ideas, please tell me that so I can stop posting here and wasting our time. I will not get offended, I promise.
The "ö" is read same as "oe" but most people in the Balkans read it as "e" because it is much easier for them to pronounce it that way. For example, they pronounce city of Köln as Keln. That is why this joke Hell-Ass was clever but IMO inappropriate. There was another joke in the newspapers on the day of the game that went something like this: "Lev and Merkel agreed: The Greece will go out of Euro." Again, pretty funny unless you are a Greek. What I also find interesting is that Angela Merkel watched particularly that game at the stadium. It did not take a lot of time for Germans to bring up their attitude towards somebody else.
Germany has to be thankful for being allowed to have military again, most of the WW2 (not WW1, I talked in my previous post about WWII) debt forgiven while the rest got restructured, and for being allowed to unite. Interestingly enough, all of that happened while so many countries in Europe split apart and this tendency is likely not over (Catalonia, Scotland etc.). Also, the ex-allies of Germany are doing a whole lot better than those who fought against Germany and are not in the position to oppose. Even Turks who joined Allies in the WWII on the last day of the war are favored by Germany since Turkey allowed many Germans to escape Europe from being prosecuted or simply hated. The gratitude can be seen in nearly 5,000,000 Turks inside the German borders, particularly Western Germany. Germany does not mind to finance Turks with welfare yet it minds gipseys from Serbia who do not even have own country. So there are talks that EU is considering bringing back visas to Serbia so this minority cannot "invade" borders of certain EU countries. It is obvious that Serbia is too poor to help its own people, not to mention minorities. Germany calls them "Serbs" because it wants to be politically correct yet you and I both know the act itself is not politically correct. All of this being said, do you still think the wounds of war are completely healed and that Germany treats fairly all the nations? And before you answer, please, consider everything I said so far as well as what other contributors said.
Finally, about the EU/USA comparison I made: Do you remember what David Cameron said about UK and EU? I will paraphrase his words:"UK will leave the union because UK is unhappy how the union is managed; unless there is a motion towards one single government of the EU, there will be a referendum in 2017." Where do you think this is leading? If you have no idea, then wait another several years and you will see. And what country will be on top of the ship? Poland? Slovenia? Cyprus?
Sorry, but even Hoelle Ass doesn't make sense (in the sense you say it was used). Ass is something very positive in German. Calling someone 'Ass" is the same as saying to someone that he/she is "super". 'Ass', meaning 'Ace' is the highest card in a pack of cards.
I recall that Mrs Merkel said to, then, Prime Minister Papandreou that if Greece wants a referendum on austerity it also needs to state the alternative, which would be leaving the Euro. This was a true and fair statement, IMO.
Isn't this what the followers of Syriza and Golden Dawn want anyway? I am personally convinced that reintroducing the Drachma is a true alternative to the Euro-austerity.
I have problems to grasp what your statement means, "also, the ex-allies of Germany are doing a whole lot better than those who fought against Germany and are not in the position to oppose". Are you suggesting that there are, three generations after WW II, still invisible frontlines?
Your assumption that the citizens of Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia might have the right revoked to travel to the Schengen area without visas is not unfounded.
I remember reading last year that the EU home affairs ministers from Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Luxembourg and the Netherlands had sent a letter to the European Commission asserting that thousands of people from the former Yugoslavia were delaying the system by claiming asylum with fake passports, and that the EU home affairs commissioner Cecilia Malmstrom said that the "worrying situation" was creating "serious problems for the functioning of the asylum system". I cannot comment on this because I know too little about it.
Finally, I can assure you that the (alleged) citation of David Cameron is either a misunderstanding or a hoax; not by any means would PM Cameron have said: "UK will leave the union because UK is unhappy how the union is managed; unless there is a motion towards one single government of the EU, there will be a referendum in 2017".
Yet, most likely there will be a referendum in Britain in 2007 on whether Britain stays in the EU or leaves. This is what Mr. Cameron has communicated, as far as I know.
It makes perfect sense, if you have at least a little sense of humor. The second part of the sentence was left that way so the audience knew to whom the author of the text was referring to (Hoelle-Arsch does not remind of Hellas). And there is no need for you to translate German language for me since I already suggested that I can actually speak it. I know very well what I saw and just because you keep suggesting to me that you do not trust me for anything I say does not mean it makes a whole lot difference to me. Why do you even bother to read what I say or even worse, respond to me? FYI, I have no intention of making things up just to support my arguments.
Not sure why you brought up Papandreou since Lev (Löw) is a football coach. The point of that joke about Lev and Merkel was this: Germany will decide who will leave the tournament and who will leave the union - since both are referred to by the word "Euro." It also subtly shows you how the media is power-tripping with German power.
As for the austerity measures, Drachma would probably help a lot if Greeks changed their habits about throwing money away on stupidity. We touched upon a lot of things so far and I really think that we should not start a debate on Drachma and Greek economy.
What I meant is this: Look at the map of Europe and focus on countries with smaller or weaker economies. Of those countries, those who fought against Germany are in crappy condition, while those who fought for Germany are in much better condition. Also, notice which countries are favored by German politicians. What I suggest is that Germans say and think that they are fair, tolerant and what not but their actions simply cannot justify it. I would not call it an "invisible frontline" because that suggests military. It is just overblown ego and bitterness mixed with hypocrisy. It seems to me that you are messing with me since I can clearly see that you already responded to a person on this topic, who said exactly what I said about Germany and its WW2 allies.
As for David Cameron, I have made a mistake. He never referred to unified government but he clearly talked about how things in EU need to change, without explaining (at least in that BBC article I looked into) what exactly needs to change. And that was not a citation but simply my way of paraphrasing what I thought he said. I must have associated an opinion of a journalist here in Serbia with what Cameron said. But with all due respect don't be naive about EU. The wealthiest and most powerful men in EU are favoring a unified government. Gorge Soros, who is famous among many other things for fear-mongering statements about the doom of the Europe unless EU centralizes power. Every few months or so he says something about prospects of central government of the EU. People like Soros are introducing that idea and rest assured that they are lobbying for that.
We are in the days in which: US Deparment of Homeland Security decided to buy 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition (hollow point bullets) and just recently, 2700 lightly armored vehicles [this is all for use within the borders of USA]; global currency wars begun or are about to begin; neocolonialism of Africa is coming back, in the terms of liberation (i.e. France - Mali, Niger, uranium); the rise of China and Russia; times when Russians do not care what Americans think (i.e. Magnitsky law and adoption law); times when China can mess around with lonely and overly-indebted Japan in a dispute about some useless islands; North Korea crazyness; massive buy-outs of gold by Russia and China; terrorists; and so on, you get the picture. You can certainly see a pattern here and the balance seems to be shifting elsewhere, I am not sure where.
It seems that USA is losing the battle of the dollar because the Fed is running out of tools and measures to stabilize the economy. Thus, some people think that it would be logical for Europe to unite further in order to withstand the pressure of the emerging markets and increased competition.
I am a polite man. If someone addresses me I usually respond. This doesn't mean that I will always share the addressor's claims and opinions.
I do not doubt that you saw a sign in the football stadium reading 'Hell Ass", but I doubt that this was held by a German fan, since these words make absolutely no sense in the German language.
If you didn't mean "Greece leaving the Euro" as a joke, then I certainly don't understand your sentence: "There was another joke in the newspapers on the day of the game that went something like this: "Lev and Merkel agreed: The Greece will go out of Euro."
In which newspaper was this 'joke'? In a Greek paper? If it was, what do Germans have to do with this then? I was puzzled by your sentence and just assumed that you were talking about what Mr Merkel had said to Mr Papandreou in 2011.
I have also problems understanding the following of your claims. "It seems to me that you are messing with me since I can clearly see that you already responded to a person on this topic, who said exactly what I said about Germany and its WW2 allies".
Why should I be wanting to mess with you? I also don't recall having responded to someone who claimed that Germany gives preferential treatment to former war allies.
Rumania was a war ally of Nazi Germany, so was Bulgaria. Both are among the poorer of the new EU members. Poland was a WW II opponent of Germany and is now one of the its closest trade partners with a booming economy, so are the Netherlands, a former opponent. Yes, Finland and Austria were war allies, but their economic successes now are home-grown and have little to do with preferential treatment from Germany.
To form a European Federation is a 30-years old dream of Europhile Europeans. This step must be decided unanimously by all EU member states. George Soros is American citizen. He has no say on this matter. When Europeans want a Federation they will establish one. But now it doesn't look that way.
I agree, if the US continues to expand the greenback endlessly it will eventually collapse. But currently we are experiencing the opposite: a budget sequestration.
I do not have a problem with anyone who has a different opinion as I. But it kind of bothers me to see someone being so invested in this conversation without even trying to carefully read what I write. So I wondered whether your command of English is bad (I highly doubt it) or that you simply trying to make a fool out of me. Or perhaps, you think by simply writing any answer here, it makes your opinion automatically valuable - with all due respect to you, Sir.
Every time I write something you tend to reply by bringing up a different topic or by telling me what I actually think. For example, I talked about German debt in WW2, while you responded to me by providing a bunch of links about German WW1 debt that was paid out in full. I have talked about that term I saw in the German newspapers (there was an article about it in the news even in Serbia), you told me you had no doubt what I saw on the stadium (??). You also went on what the term means in German language without even considering that I could speak German and that I have translated it to you for your convenience (unless you too speak German). I talked about Balkanization you talked about Serbian "state-organized terrorism." I explained to you about the assassination, you moved on to the rules about what a country needs to do to join EU (??). I can keep going for a long time but you get the picture. That is where this conversation goes to all the time. Basically, when I provide you with facts you move the conversation in a different direction.
And yes, you definitely responded with "ol' love never dies" on this article about ex-allies of Germany. Just search it towards the top.
That joke about Lev and Merkel is obvious. I even explained the meaning. If you do not understand it, ask someone else to read what I wrote for you. I cannot help you more about it. And honestly, I am not trying to condescend you. Maybe you just do not want to understand it. Where are you from, by the way?
George Soros is an American citizen. So what? He was born in Budapest to a Jewish family that moved to England after the war and later moved to USA. You can change your passport but you cannot change your roots. I am not even sure how the fact that he is an American citizen has anything to do with what I wrote about him.
You brought up Poland and Finland, even though I mentioned smaller economies specifically. The implication was that smaller economies cannot look after themselves and can be easily influenced. Again, I do not understand why you brought it up.
In my opinion, the whole thing about EU will be achieved the same way things get achieved in the USA. First, the wealthy class will lobby. Then, they will make a propaganda how one government is a simply fabulous idea. Then, people will vote for it, without even knowing what they voted for. That is even why so many nations in EU (poorer countries) do not seem to be satisfied with their lifestyles.
Sequestration will only cut like 85 billion dollars a year if I remember correctly. The public debt is 16-17 trillion. That is not enough even to pay the interest. And the problem about sequestration is that it is extremely inefficient because you cannot prioritize cuts. Everything gets cut the same way. Some experts claim that sequestration will provide more harm than good.
You're right in every particular.
On the other hand there are many Serbs, who are sensible enough to realize that Kosovo is long time lost and there's no point in denying it. The trouble with Serbia is that the kind, the intelligent, the non aggressive and the non chauvinistic people have no voice. And about Bulgarian and Romanian membership - well, we'll see if it was a mistake or not in time.
I observe that you are preoccupied with Romania and Bulgaria.
Instead of being so overly preoccupied with the speck of sawdust in the eye of Romania and Bulgaria, you should start to notice the huge titanic plank in your eye: Spain and Greece, whose bankruptcy will collapse the whole house of cards that is the EU.
Smart Alec...there are other voices that favor human organs trade (PM leads) in Kosovo, right?
Nadya Mendez: "Guess they're part of the society too. But, somehow, they're never in the picture, that goes out. You tell me why."
As a Serb, I can say this: The overall opinion of the Serbs towards the EU is in a huge decline, not because of the economic situation of the Union but because Serbia has to give up on Kosovo to join. The problem is, the EU officials earlier said that Serbia needs to cooperate with the Tribunal of Hague in order to join the union and that's the only unique pre-requisite. We do not trust the EU anymore as the union seems to be full of hypocritical politicians. I do understand that Serbian politicians are not better at all but the point is what Serbian people want to do. Why would a nation want to join a group of countries that keep lying to us? Finally, if you look at the countries like Bulgaria, Romania, Slovenia and even Croatia which is to join the EU soon, the situation is quite concerning. All these countries are facing too many problems now and there are questions raised whether the EU is all that great.
And as an EU member I can say this: The overall opinion of Serbia can't be much lower as it is.
I don't see Serbia and other Balkan countries becoming EU members anytime soon, sorry (or not).
Bulgaria and Romania where already big mistakes...
@ the country called "Michel_Berlin"
Wow, you are "an EU member"? I didn't realise there were more than 27. How many MEPs do you have in the Euro Parliament? What is your population? Social structure (monarchy, republic, autarchy, delusional psychosis?)
Are you one of those fictitious countries like the Principality of Sealand?
". . . Finally, if you look at the countries like Bulgaria, Romania, Slovenia and even Croatia which is to join the EU soon . . . All these countries are facing too many problems now and there are questions raised whether the EU is all that great".
I couldn't agree with you more. For a country which doesn't have a rock solid economy, including solid public finances, BEFORE they join the EU's 'straightjacket', membership can very well become a obstacle to this country's further consistent development.
Kosovo isn't Serbia's to "give up"
That is a very stupid claim in light of UN resolution which define Kosovo AND METOHIJA as a part of Serbia (as the sole heir to Federal Republic of Yugoslavia).
And UN law supercedes all individual countries tradeoff decisions.
If Serbia is blind, naive and dumb, well in that case it should join the "Union".
If not, run away from the "Union" like a devil running away from Holy Water.
"And as an EU member I can say this: The overall opinion of Serbia can't be much lower as it is."
Remind me to cry.
In April the European Commission will make a recommendation as to whether Serbia should open negotiations.
A visit to Belgrade by the Trioka - IMF, ECB, EU - now to examine the books would be better that visits later.
You'd think the trioka would have learned some lessons.
Germans are experts on the Balkans, they know the situation from their streets.
And now I'm waiting for the fist person to complain about that the German parliament has something to say in that matter. Parliaments! In Germany!
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If not and you believe Osama BL was not killed at that point in time, then are your words proof of such? Every member of a ship is always a witness to burials at sea? Did the higher ups perhaps decide it was better off to have it happen with a little more privacy and humanity than as some spectacle? Especially given a Muslim's wishes and everything involved? Do you really think Obama and the U.S. would have risked concocting some tale? Better yet, do you really think Obama and the other higher ups would have woven such knowing a concocted tale could and would fall very flat on its' face if and when one, or more likely all, supposed SEAL members involved in killing him denied ever having done so?
Does it matter?!?!
Does it matter whether or not we are lied to by the president of the United States? On an issue that has shaped policy for the last 11+ years, cost lives around the world, and cost trillions of dollars? Are you serious?
It may not matter to you any, but I prefer my government to be subjected to checks and balances. Not running around doing what they want and keeping secrets about it.
The story stinks of bull **** up and down. This one takes the cake for the most cocka mamey bull **** story that has ever come from the government.
Yes, secrets can be kept. Its not impossible.
The whole Osama wives and children being present story that was played up as being a significant path that would lead everyone to the truth turned up being nothing either. There was nothing learned from the supposed Pakistani ISI interviews with them. Another dead end for the fairy tale.
I, HeavenHarris, hereby pledge to my fellow JFC'rs that I will no longer give out neg-reps. All it does is cause negative things, like fights, drama, bitching, ill will, bad feelings, etc.
Love, not hate, is the answer bros and moes.
LOL Lol breaks his pledge 5 days later hahahaha
The real question is, how does this not strike you as being a lie? You cant see through bull **** stories? You live in a big city. You should be used to people making up bull **** and trying to sell it to you.
Or what about the other 7 times that Bin Laden was reported to be dead?
I think it's pretty safe to say that his nine lives are up at this point.
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson


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