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The elect knows that the false christ comes first. Many will be deceived. That is the great apostasy. And preachers are not preaching this truth. Mark chapter 13, Matthew chapter 24. Read what has to happen before Christ returns.
In the Bible, 1 Corinthians describes our final victory:
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Paul says this occurs at the last trump, which the Bible tells us is the seventh trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 11:15 are referring to the same thing. For the trumpet shall sound, the dead shall be raised, and we shall be changed.
At the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, all born again Christians will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). At the sound of the "last trumpet," the dead who were born again during their lifetime will be resurrected from the dead. At the same time, those who are born again and still alive on earth will be transformed instantly, from mortal beings to immortal beings. Romans 8:11 tells us that our mortal bodies will be made alive if we have God's spirit living in us.
It is often taught that at the rapture all of us will instantly disappear, but that is not what the Bible says. It says we will be changed in a moment and in the twinkling of an eye. When Jesus Christ was caught up, He was seen leaving the earth. Just as they were able to see Jesus go, so will people be able to see the church go.
"But of that day and hour no one knows," Jesus said to His disciples on the Mount of Olives (Matthew 24:36). Some say we cannot know the day and the hour when Jesus will return and gather His church to Himself. But others claim that Jesus was speaking only to people living in the first century, not to people living today.
Just before He was caught up to heaven, Jesus' disciples asked, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6). Jesus replied specifically about what would happen "at this time." In other words, His response was particularly directed to the first century generation in which they were living. He said, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power." (Acts 1:7) Will we also, then, be unable to know the times and the seasons?
The answer to this question is found in Matthew 24:34, in which Jesus says, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." "This generation" refers specifically to the people who live to see all of the terrifying events that Jesus had just mentioned as increasing immediately before His return; such as wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes in various places, widespread famine and disease, and the Antichrist's rise to power. Paul validates this view, saying,
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5
We will know, according to Paul, the times and the seasons. If we pay attention we will see the day of the Lord coming. This settles the controversy about knowing the times and the seasons, but what about knowing the day and hour?
1 Thessalonians 5 and Matthew 24:42-43 teach us that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. The master of the house will not know what hour the thief will come. The thief clearly represents the Lord. The master of the house was living in darkness and was not ready for the coming of the Lord. Unbelievers are the ones who will not know the hour of the Lord's coming. Paul explicitly states that the coming of the Lord would only be a surprise to those living in darkness. 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5 indicates that, unlike the situation with unbelievers, the day of the Lord will not overtake His children of light as a thief in the night. If we keep studying the scriptures, and strive to understand current events in light of Bible prophecy, we will know the generation and the times and seasons. And as the time draws nearer, we may not only begin to understand the day of His return, but the hour also.
In chapter 14 of Revelation we see a vision of Christ reaping a harvest.
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. Revelation 14:14-16
Jesus compares souls to a harvest in John 4:35. The reaping of the good harvest of the earth is the rapture of the church. This harvest that He reaps is immediately before the wrath of God, described in Revelation 14:17-20. Thus, the rapture of the church occurs just prior to God's wrath.
The harvest signals the end of this age, at which time Jesus Christ will come back for the rapture of His church and the Battle of Armageddon. Jesus prophesied of the harvest. We call it the "rapture," although the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible. It is merely a word we use that means "the catching away". 1 Thessalonians speaks of this "catching away."
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Those of us who have been taught a pre-tribulation rapture cannot read Matthew 24 without concluding that Jesus placed the rapture immediately after the tribulation of those days.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
The timing of the rapture seems to be the most controversial of all prophecy teachings. However, whether it will occur before, during, or after the tribulation has no bearing on your salvation. God can come for any one of us at any time. Jesus said in Matthew 24,
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Matthew 24:42-43
Whatever you believe about the timing of the rapture, or whether you even believe in Bible prophecy, if you were to die right now, you would be immediately removed from the earth to stand before your Creator for judgment. The Bible says, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men" (2 Corinthians 5:11). "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (1 Peter 4:18) This is not the time to emphasize only the parts of the Bible we like, to make us feel good. But it is time for us to make sure that our lives are in line with all the teachings of God's Word. If ever there were a time to walk closely to God, this is the time, as we see the day of the Lord drawing near.
The elect knows that the false christ comes first. Many will be deceived. That is the great apostasy. And preachers are not preaching this truth. Mark chapter 13, Matthew chapter 24. Read what has to happen before Christ returns.
Here's an absolute PEACH I came across today in support of post trib…
Matt 22
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.
43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44 "'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
UNTIL I put your enemies
under your feet."'[e]
45 If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?"
Question: Jesus is clearly referring to Himself….if Jesus isn't to leave the Father's right hand UNTIL His enemies (of which Antichrist is clearly one) are under His feet how can Jesus leave the Father's right hand to come to collect believers in a rapture at the start of the 7 years when Antichrist isn't defeated until the end of the 7 years ?
I can hardly wait for the answers to this one (please don't disappoint me)…………
The Rapture ( being caught up )
The knowledge that we will be part of those being caught up is most important to each of us. The only qualification to be part of those being raptured is that we are born again Christians. Born again is born of the spirit, If we "believe" in our heart (our inner most being ) and confess with our mouth that Jesus the Christ is the son of God, was crucified and suffered death and was raised again by God the Father to pay our sin penalty we will be saved ! Romans 10:9-10.
The word believe includes faith and trust etc. ie you might watch a man pushing a wheel barrow walk a tight wire stretched across a canyon, once across the canyon he might ask you do you think I can push it back and you say yes of coarse, and he might say ok get in the wheel barrow ! We must believe that Jesus can save us, we must get in the wheel barrow.
The next event and I believe soon to be is the Rapture of his church .
1st thes 4:16-17
16 )For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 )Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
I believe we will be taken to heaven to the judgment seat of Christ (2nd cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.) our works will be dealt with both good and bad. The good we receive crowns for, the bad to be thrown out to be burnt. This will take place during the seven year tribulation on earth. The church also referred to as the bride of Christ in Matthew 25 and Revelation19:6 -18 is the marriage supper of the Lamb … read it.
This should not be confused with with the second coming and other events because in Revelation it tells us that Jesus will return to Jerusalem with his now wife (rev 19:7 ) to do battle and Reign for 1000 years. How did his Church get to heaven to the judgment seat of Christ where we will be purified and clothed in white linen except for the Rapture.
Also in Jude it talks of the Lord returning with his saints. How did his saints get to heaven so they can return with him at his second coming ?
Jude 14: Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
There is a lot more that supports all the above all we have to do is Pray Read Pray read……. Hope to see you in Heaven !
I challenge anyone who believes the church will go through the tribulation, to find the word church, Body of Christ, Bride of Christ or Christian in Rev. 4 up to and including ch.18. It's not there. Also, when Jesus is talking to his disciples in Matt. 24 he is addressing Jews and what will be happening to the Jewish people. Remember the Church isn't formed until Acts 2. Be kinda hard to be in Judea and flee unto the mountains if your in Kansas. That whole chapter is aimed at the Jew, not the Christian. I also never heard of a Jewish Wedding where the bridegroom beats his wife (7 yr. Tribulation) before they are married (Marriage Supper of the Lamb). So, look up your redemption draws near, we are to be looking for Jesus to appear not the antichrist. Why? Because that's what we were told to do by the apostle Paul, look for his appearing!….And the Judgement Seat of Christ and the marriage supper of the lamb takes place during the 7 yr. tribulation….and the two witness are Moses and Elijah, they are the last two old prophets mentioned in the old testament, Malachi 4:4-6 (KJV) and they appear before the Day of the Lord, and they were with Jesus at Mt. Transfiguration. One last thing, the whole Bible was written for you, but the whole Bible was not written to you. The scriptures are pointed at three groups of people, they are either for the Jew, the Gentile or the Christian. Please read 2 Tim. 2:15, Study and Rightly divide the word of truth (that would be the scriptures).
You'll see in Rev 13 13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
that persecution is 'first to the Jew then to the gentile(believers)'…..the woman is Israel and Christians are the 'rest of her seed' and ALL are persecuted……..
…also you throw out a challenge…well I threw out a challenge a month or two back to any pre-tribber to provide unambiguous, comprehensive unmistakeable scriptural proof of it……are you up for it ?
You can't formulte a doctrine based on omission. The word 'saints' is mentioned a number of times (as in Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the SAINTS, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.) I believe the non mention of the word church does have a two fold explanation: 1) The church of that day will be the apostate false 'superchurch' so it would be confusing to refer to church when it could refer to two distinct groups : the apostate church and true church. 2) Also consider the environment…if A/C is making war with the saints how can a group of saints easily organise itself into 'church'…rather they will be scattered and underground.
Regarding the bloodied bride I've Iready comprehensively discussed that at March 2, 2015 at 1:08 pm
Also the judgment seat, marriage and wrath do all arrive at the same point however……your timings of the wrath are all wrong. The wrath doesn't begin until a good way into the final 3.5 years (ie it's NOT the whole 7 years) – when God halts the martyriing oft His saints which began at the midpoint at the revealing of A/C in his true light.
Regarding Judea …He was addressing Jews because that's who He was sent to and clearly that instruction only applies to any living in Judea (but clearly to be disregarded by Jews not in Judea or gentiles though there are other instructions which are clearly applicable to all believers).
…and He was fully aware some of His hearers would go onto write the gospels amongst other books which gentiles would read…..
I don't know how I got to this page but here we go. I don't even know what the conversation is about because my windows XP is painfully slow. However, the two wotnesses are NOT Moses and Elijah BECAUSE go read Matthew 11:10-14
…and would add credulity to any warning to flee Judea….
also if these were actually Moses and Elijah that would help in convincing the Jews as to the Messiahs true identity.
It's true….the 2 witnesses identities can only ever be guessed at. Some project that they are Moses on the basis of calling forth the plagues. Some project Elijah is one on the basis that their enemies are destroyed by the calling down of fire from heaven. Other things offering some credence are that Moses and Elijah were transfigured with Jesus. There is also some question/dispute regarding the bodies of Moses and Elijah. But you're right NO ONE can say definitily who they will be but whoever they are they certainly appear to have a measure of the spirit of these 2 OT giants.
With all the signs that are happening, like the church turning from sound doctrine.
1 Tim 2:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
To the things that are happening with Israel.
Do you think we are very near to Christ return?
I think its very apparent that the start of Daniels 70th week is at the door.
Mystery Babylon (Catholic Church) is already successfully acquiring her daughter harlots (backtracking protestants) and abominations (other world religions) in readiness for the great apostasy (one world religion) which will precede the revealing of A/C 1/2 way through the 7 years.
The pre-trib rapture doctrine will have garnered many sedated unwary Christians for the great falling away.
Technology and globalism are all falling into place. Fewer and fewer large institutions control specific areas (thereby making them much easier to control).
As for Christs Return add 7 years to that – yes we're all going through the 7 years (at least until we die that is).
I thank my Lord Jesus for allowing me to know the Truth!"
Mat 25:1-13
The church is the bride of the lord Jesus Christ and he will return and take us to the wedding In heaven …the judgment seat of Christ. I believe this will take place during the 7 year tribulation and then we will return with him for the battle and the 1000 year period where the King of kings. Just food for though that goes with other thoughts of a pre trib rapture.
I want to address the question to whomever, Why does it not mention in Matthew 24 about The dead in Christ rising first and we who are alive being caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air and most important part is Jesus himself descending, but not to the earth but to meet in the air. And what about 1Theslonians and 1Cor.chapter 15 speaks about a mystery that we shall not all sleep but being changed in the moment of the twinkling of an eye in which those two chapters are synonymous yet they don't mention the angels gathering together the saints from one end of heaven to the other or rather the four winds as it does in Matthew. Because in Matthew, this is where he's coming back with his saints to set set his feet on the Mount of olives and comes to destroy those against Israel.according to Zechariah chapter 14.This tells me that there is two separate great meetings taking place. However, I too feel that this is not a heaven or hell issue as some do.
Kev (in) is right if that is his full name.
Matthew 24:31 refers to the Second Coming possibly/probably in a year of Jubilee because these two sets of scripture tie into Leviticus 23 and 25 which ties into Genesis 1:14.
I Corinthians 15:52 could also refer to the last Trumet as being the Day of Atonement which will be Armageddon because it has 1 trumpet call whereas the Day of Trumpet has 99 trumpet calls. However, at the last trumpet call could also refer to the last 99th sounding of the Trumpet on the Day of Trumpet 10 days prior to Armageddon. Some prophecy people refer it to the last Trumpet Judgment before the bowl judgments are poured out.
According to the harvest verses of wheat and tares. They grow side by side and at the "end" of the harvest the tares are gathered to be burned (Armageddon) and the wheat is gathered into the barn (Messianic Kingdom). Revelation 14 falls in the September timeframe as well as Revelation 12:1-2. Revelation 15 is a picture of the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16/ Lev. 23:36ff?, and Chapter 16/19 of Revelation is Armageddon.
Revelation is a duplicate of Leviticus 23.
You shall know the end from the beginning.
Tim…different scriptures describing the same event may choose to emphasise/de-emphasise certain features of it for the benefit of the theological aspect in hand being discussed in in that particular scripture in much the same way as some gospel events are described from different angles by different gospel writers and emphasise/de-emphasise different aspects of those events. Please feel free to specify how you think any of these scriptures describing the rapture contradict each other in any way.
Matt 24:31 is describing the gathering of the elect. Gathering / harvest / rapture are synonymous terms. This occurs while Jesus is on His way down (and He never changes direction – in Acts 1 2 angels told the disciples Jesus would return in LIKE MANNER as He ascended – namely straight down without a change of direction: 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in LIKE MANNER as you saw Him go into heaven."). Shortly after meeting them on the clouds He rides down to defeat the armies of the beast and eventually touch down on the mount of olives.
It's not a heaven or hell issue in the same way that you need to believe Jesus is the Son of God and died for our sins to be saved… IT IS HOWEVER a heaven or hell issue in the sense that if we believe we'll not be around for the A/C persecution etc then we'll be completely unprepared for it and maybe even become blase and lukewarm and like the parable says: Matt 13 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Once saved always saved is an additional false doctrine (i.e. in addition to pre-trib) so if you fall away THEN it is a heaven or hell issue – make sense ?
Kevin,Ijust found this site awhile ago.Im enjoying the learning process here(so much to take in with my many lost brain cells) where,at this time are we(in your view) in the bibles time line? Take in consideration>> Russia,China,Mideast,,Economy,New world Order,borders being over run, moral decay,etc.ect,ect, We all feel something is not right.In your heart>>Where are we at? Im looking forward to your response, Thankyou>Take Care
Also…its it so difficult to foresee a time at hand when Christians wanting to 'hold fast the word of truth' will be increasingly in the minority and be the new terrorist/extremist (please don't switch off at this point thinking 'ridiculous'). I believe there will come a time when Gods people will be targeted as such (in much the same way as terrorists are routinely 'picked off' today without question when caught up with following committing of atrocities) and the rest of the world won't bat an eyelid. Gods true people will be seen by the rest of the world as 'enemies of the peace' (a world unity based on falsehood) and a false peace/utopia will be in place which will seem like 'business as usual' to everyone else (people will be 'marrying and giving in marriage…..' like in the days of Noah) and people will think a service is being done in dispensing with these 'enemies'. The trumpet judgments in response to the persecution/killing of God's people will therefore come as a complete surprise to most of the world….'But they say Peace…peace and then comes sudden destruction…..'. Tell me is it so hard to believe that could happen before long ?
Article in San Antonio newspaper says that House Republicans are pushing E Verify for all Amerians before they can start a job. Starting within two years.
1 Tim 4 4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
2 Tim 4 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather round them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
The pre-rib rapture is one such myth
The following accounts for saints being still around during the judgments (i.e. not all martyred):-
Matt 24
21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should NO FLESH be saved: but for the ELECT's sake those days shall be SHORTENED.
It is evident that God prevents outright martyring of ALL his saints by bringing the 6th seal forward(there are no timing constraints to prevent this being the case except the 5month demonic torture but that only 1 of the trumpets). That's how there are saints still alive.
and we know the ELECT in this context is't referring to the 144,000 Jews as Rev 13 as these are completely untouchable:
Rev 12 13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The WOMAN (Jewish remnant) was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be TAKEN CARE OF FOR A TIME, TIMES AND HALF A TIME (3.5 years), OUT OF THE SNAKES REACH. 15 Then from his mouth the snake spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the FIRST resurrection.
Question: If this FIRST resurrection clearly post dates the beast, mark etc…..then what position is the 'pre-trib' rapture in ? Perhaps 0 or maybe 0.5 or maybe 0.3333 ?
in fact not just pre-trib but also mid trib ?
How about:-
0.333333 = Pre-trib (phase 1)
0.666666 = Mid trib (phase 2)
1 = Post trib (Final phase)
Yes I know…..silly isn't it ?
Rev. 14:14-16 has Jesus coming on a cloud and Rev. 19:11-16 has Jesus coming on a white horse. Is His coming on a cloud the rapture of the church? Is His coming on a white horse a different coming?
Rev chaps 14-19 all denote events at or near the end of the 7 years. Rev. 14:14-16 is the rapture which occurs at His coming at then end.
Rev. 19:11-16 follows soon on the tail of the rapture – the rapture has already recently happened – His saints are now with Him and they follow Him as He rides on His white Horse to defeat A/C at Armageddon. Disregard that there are 4 chapters in between – these simply backtrack to the delivery of the 7 bowls and full analysis of Mystery Babylon and it's destruction (all occur at the end).
The gathering of the armies (grapes) occur at Bowl 6. The wheat gathering occurs in the same timeframe (pre-bowl 7).
The white horse coming is at/after the 7th bowl delivery.
Hope that makes sense.
so the answer is…it's one and the same coming it's just that one happens 'soon' after the other…..
one PART OF his coming that is…..
Did you know that Jesus foresaw everyones quandary about the timing of the rapture ?
Mark 13:35New International Version – UK (NIVUK)
35 'Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back – whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the cock crows, or at dawn.
evening = pre-trib
midnight (midpoint = darkest hour = abom of desol)
rooster crows = 6th seal sign (pre-wrath)
dawn (post trib)
Let me put you out of your misery…the answer is DAWN
Isn't Jesus amazing ?
…and when he says "you do not know when…" he didn't mean the timing was unknowable he just meant there'd be a lot of ideas about it flying around…..enough to generate a lot of confusion….otherwise why would he need to say 'watch' ? Post-tribbers have the edge here….
The reference to the day and hour in Mat. 24:36 is not a reference to the second coming of Jesus Christ. It refers to the day the heaven and earth will pass away, Rev. 20:11 and Rev. 21:1. In the discourse of Mat. 24, Jesus told his disciples exactly when He would return, immediately after the great tribulation, Mat.24:29. The interpretation I have heard all my life that Jesus said no one could know the day and hour of his second coming, Mat.24:36, does not hold up to serious scrutiny. This is the first time I have seen your web site. I will probably visit it again. Regards Berkley Steele
Berkely with ref to the section in Matt 24…
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
v34 & 35 are simply 2 ways of affirming the truth of what he's been saying – by comparing with heaven and earth passing away he's simply indicating how immovable and trustwothy his words are. The no man knoweth the day or the hour is referring back to the SIGN of His coming (Sun, moon and stars blackened) – this is a floating date at God's discretion and will hinge on exactly when God decides enough martyring of his saints has taken place – at which point the trumpet judgments begin. I believe the first 6 trumpet judgments will be 'stretched in time as needed' to meet he 7th trumpet at the very end of the 7 years (I seem to recall only one trumpet judgment has a fixed time period: 5 months demonic torture).
The word 'harpoon' comes from the Greek word 'harpazo' meaning a snatching away. What does a harpoon do? Well, the harpazo will be pre-tribulational without a doubt since even a cursory examination of the Word of God corroborates it :
How about 250 reason for a Pretrib Rapture?
Or let's say 50 reasons?
We are looking for the Uppertaker , not the undertaker.
An interesting snippet from Strongs on the word Harpazo
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. NOT covertly or secretly).
So where's this secret rapture ??
…because you won't be expecting to see the 'undertaker' AT ALL and so will be fooled by him (until its too late to do anything about it)….
In that case while you are still looking for the 'uppertaker' the undertaker will sweep you away….
Behold I will talk to the whole world in one voice and all will be able to hear and understand me. I AM HERE AND READY. The day of repentance has been chosen . Repent for I will forgive your sins and wash away the sins of this world. Take my hand and be saved . Believe without my touch look to the heavens see my father's eyes looking down on his creation.I am here to receive and speak his word the revelation has began .only those of pure innocence shall be saved. This world has no one without sin but only those who repent and ask for this forgiving chance have a place in his kingdom . He does not need you to prove you love for him with words only he sees your acting and will he is the judge and jury to his gate. Throw yourself into the fire of fear and hells torture and he will save you ..Believe in his power and he will protect you for harm. My father will take your soul into his glory.
About the "RAPTURE"
In the Book of Daniel, there is a passage of Scripture which upon careful examination will give the reader a good understanding that a "Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Saints" (a catching away) does not take place. Since the Bible devotes a great deal of attention to the End-Times, it is pretty clear that this is of "GREAT IMPORTANCE" to the Lord, because HE wants the End-Times Saints to be fully aware of what awaits them, which will help prepare them for the "GREAT DECEPTION" and the "FIERY TRIAL" which is to come. So, understanding that there is no "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" is of MONUMENTAL IMPORTANCE to the End-Time Saint!
Daniel 7:21 – I beheld, and the same "horn" made war with the Saints, and prevailed against them:
Daniel 7:22 – Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the kingdom.
We are clearly told in this passage of Scripture that War is made with the Saints "until" Christ comes back, at which time judgment is then given to the Saints and then they will possess the Kingdom.
There has been much confusion and different viewpoints in the Church about when is "THE RAPTURE" (the catching away) going to take place. Daniel 7:21 does not tell us that "War" is made with those who become Saints after "THE RAPTURE" (the catching away) of earlier Saints (Pre-Tribulation Saints). This verse and the following verse, just simply tells us that "War" will be made with the Saints "until" the return of Christ.
I want to strongly re-empathize the point that <WE ARE NOT BEING TOLD in verse 21 that the "horn" makes War with those who become Saints after "THE RAPTURE" (the catching away) of previous Saints. If that were the case, because of how "MONUMENTAL" this event is going to be, the Lord would have clearly stated this, so that there would be no room for confusion. In fact, if there is to be a "Pre-Tribulation Rapture", I find it to be a GREAT MYSTERY as to why the Lord would not have given us at least 1 passage of Scripture that is worded in such a way as to clearly state that the "antichrist" makes "War" with those who become Saints "after" the "CATCHING AWAY" of earlier Saints. The above passage of Scripture certainly would have given the Lord a "ROYAL OPPORTUNITY" to have clearly stated that there will first be a "CATCHING AWAY" of the Saints, and then the "horn" makes War with those who become Saints during the "Great Tribulation". From the Book of Genesis to the Book of Revelation, we find no such passage of Scripture that states this. God is not the author of confusion!
Jesus made a promise to the Church of Philadelphia and represents the church of the end times (probably) that they would be spared the tribulation or " hour of temptation" Rev. 3:10. The time of the rapture depends on the meaning of the phrase 'revealing of the antichrist', 11 Thesalonians 2: 6-8. If the revealing is his confirming of the covenant with the world regarding Israel, the rapture will occur before the tribulation. If the meaning is his violation of the covenant in the middle of the tribulation, the rapture could occur after the tribulation starts.
and in case you want to contest the fact that the 'immediately after the tribulation' is referring to the 'great' tribulation then see my post at February 24, 2015 at 2:24 pm which clears that up
Berkely……regardless of whether the 'revealing' is referring to the start or the 'midpoint' (it would appear to be the midpoint as the abom of desolation according to Jesus appears to be a marker for the Jews to flee). So if he was revealed only then he can't have been apparent earlier – he seems to be somewhat under the radar in the first half…..ANYWAY regardless….Jesus explicitly stated in Matt 24 that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE (GREAT) TRIBULATION…………HE WILL GATHER….Note……NOT immediately after the START of the TRIBULATION but rather implied after the END of it……and we know the great tribulation doesn't start until the midpoint…..unless the great trib only lasts 2 seconds….:)
Kev: Christ prayed in the garden for unity. If the Pope can accomplish uniting all brothers and sisters in Christ and bring all those who do not believe to the foot of the cross, then he will have done the job Jesus gave the pope and ALL OF US to do. So what's the matter with that? You talk about "counter-balancing," what do Protestants have in mind to "counter-balance" their sins? Peace.
JESUS prayed in the garden for GOD the FATHER to protect them which have been given unto me, he DID NOT pray for the removal of the saints. Saints will be right here until the sound of the 7th trumpet and then it will be time for JESUS to appear in the clouds with His host of heavenly Angels. At that time He will raise the dead and rapture (catch away) the saints that are still alive on the earth at that time. The unity that the Pope is putting together with his One World Religion unites Muslims with Catholics and Christians…
wandakate: Rev. 5:8 and 8:3. How did the "saints" get those prayers to offer before the throne of God? If they aren't in heaven, how did they receive our prayers? Where do spirits go after the body dies? Jesus said "into your Hands I commend My Spirit." Jesus' Body died but His Spirit did not. Paul makes supplication for all the saints and for himself. Eph. 6:18 If there aren't any saints in heaven, why is Paul praying to them? God is not God of the dead, but of the living. The Bible teaches us that. Anyone who lives and dies in Christ never dies. Their bodies do, but their spirits don't. Their spirits are joined with their bodies at the last trump. Sooo, if the spirits are around to join their dead bodies at the last trump, where have they been? Blessings…
wandakate: I just want to correct something you've said elsewhere. You've said that the bowls (7th trumpet) are God's wrath. This is correct BUT more than that they are the COMPLETION of God's Wrath (Rev 15: 1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is FILLED UP the wrath of God.) which implies that something preceding STARTED HIS WRATH OFF (namely the trumpets). That aside that DOESN'T THEN mean that the rapture is before the trumpets. God showed us in the account of the Exodus plagues that He is well able to cover his people whilst delivering plagues to this not His people.
Rev 16:15 (15 "Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.") – occurring between the 6th and 7th bowl – indicates that believers are still around even then.
…and having shown you that the wrath of God includes the trumpets and that you already agree we are here for trumpets 1-6 (i.e. at least part of His wrath) then is it a huge leap to believe God can equally cover us for the FILLING UP of his wrath (i.e. the bowls as well – or rather 1-6) while we are still on earth (remember the Egyptian plagues weren't limited to 1/3 destruction they were all consuming and yet God's people were preserved through them).
…and the 7th bowl is still technically under the 'banner' of the 7th trumpet so rapture is still technically 'AT the last trump (just not immediately at the last trump')….
There are 5 possible 'falling away' points (i.e. where you think you've missed the boat so you fall away)
1) Pre-'trib' expected and doesn't happen
2) Mid-'trib' expected and doesn't happen
3) Sixth seal rapture expected and doesn't happen
4) Seventh seal start (1st trumpet) rapture expected and doesn't happen
5) Seventh trumpet start (1st bowl) rapture expected and doesn't happen
6) Pre-7th bowl – RAPTURE HAPPENS
A lot of room for attrition there….
wandakate: I'm with you on a post-trib. The RCC has always taught that. Jesus will come one more time, at the last trump. Are you saying you do not want the Muslims to come to Jesus. BTW Catholics ARE Christians. Jesus is the center of our teachings. Peace.
some might by God's grace – but not en masse like the pope wants
Does that mean we shouldn't try? There are many, many Messianic Arabs. "With God All things are possible." God "does not want anyone to perish." Peace.
Jo Ann: Muslims will NEVER be convinced to come to Jesus – the only way to achieve this 'unity' will be to water down many tenets of the faith (some critical, I might add, to salvation) to such an extent they are acceptable to EVERYONE of all faiths.
Jo Ann: perhaps you meant to be in the MB blog but any way Yes Jesus did pray for unity but He was also the TRUTH. Remember that the devil tempted Jesus to 'fast path' his ascent to the world's throne by worshipping him (this is how Antichrist gets there by the way) but He chose the long difficult road of His Father's will to get there – and He will get there in the end.
12 Because of rebellion, the Lord's people[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and TRUTH WAS THROWN TO THE GROUND.
You see the subtle deception is ….ooh isn't tolerance just wonderful….but God does NOT tolerate His truth being watered down for the sake of unity(in fact MUCH hinges on exactly what we believe). There will indeed eventually by true biblical unity but it will be those whose hearts have been forged together in the furnace of persecution and worldwide rejection. – the true end time saints.
It is within the "seven weeks" of Daniel 9:25 that:-
1. For the first time since 70 A.D., the re-unification of the city of Jerusalem under Jewish control was re-established following the capture of the Eastern sector of the old city of Jerusalem from the nation of Jordan during the six day war of June 1967.
2. It is the period, in which the construction of the 'barrier' or 'separation' "wall" commenced, in the month of June 2002 and which probably will be completed by the 23rd of September 2015, even amidst the opposition to its construction – "even in troublous times". Daniel 9:25
3. It also relates to the period within which the "Messiah the Prince" referring to Yeshua haMeshiach or Jesus the Messiah would return at His second advent as the "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS". Revelation 19:18.
The "seven weeks" of Daniel 9:25 points to the second coming of Yeshua which will be preceded three years earlier by the completion of construction of the barrier "wall' neighboring Jerusalem that separates Palestinian and Jewish settlements that are in close proximity to each other within the West Bank of Judaea.
For the purposes of our illustration, a 'set' is representative of Seven Biblical Prophetic Years. The "seven weeks" of Daniel 9:25 represent seven (7) 'sets' of seven years which makes up a total of 49 BIBLICAL PROPHETIC YEARS.
As a result of multiplying, seven (7)years by(X) seven (7)years amounts to (=) 49 Biblical prophetic years in the Hebraic calendar which in turn equates to 51 years in the Gregorian calendar. (Refer to the supporting computational workings on pages 56 to 57 of this book.)
What Does 49 Biblical Prophetic Calendar Years Equate To In
Terms of the Total Number of Prophetic Days?
49 Hebraic years x 360 prophetic days in a Biblical year = 17,640 days.
Going by the date from which the Israel Defense Forces under the command of General Moshe Dayan captured the Eastern sector of the old city of Jerusalem from under the control of the nation of Jordan, on the 7th June, 1967 A.D., as our point of reference.
We can begin to count 17,640 literal days from the 7th June, 1967 A.D. by the use of an illustrative date count calculator based upon the Gregorian calendar, with which to compute the date by when the construction of the barrier "wall" will be presumably completed.
The following is an illustrative date count calculator for determining the date to which the 17,640 Biblically Prophetic days compute to.
17,640 days after 1967-06-07 is 2015-09-23
Calculate which date it will be, or was, a certain number of days before or after a certain date.
Type the first date (e.g. today)
How many days do you want to add or subtract to the date?
Do you want to check the date the number of days before or after that date?
You should find the answer on top of this page, inside a black box.
The resulting date being 23rd September, 2015 A.D. being the year in which the barrier wall situated in Israel, that separates Jewish from Palestinian settlements in the West Bank of Judaea will probably have been COMPLETED.
The 23rd September, 2015 A.D. also coincides with the commemoration of the Feast Day of Atonement or commonly referred to as 'Yom Kippur'.
The construction of the 'barrier' "wall" in Israel was at its 62% stage of completion by the month of June, 2012.
In order to determine, what 49 Biblically prophetic years in the Hebraic calendar equates to in the Gregorian. The following are the computational workings:-
Step 1:
The Gregorian calendar consists of 365.25 days in the year whereas the Hebraic Calendar is made up of 354 days in the year.
This means that the Gregorian calendar has 11.25 days more than the Hebrew per year which is arrived at by taking 365.25 literal days contained in the Gregorian calendar and subtracting (-) 354 literal days contained in the Hebraic Calendar
Step 2:
Take, the 49 Hebrew years and multiply by 11.25 days representing the difference in days between the Hebraic and Gregorian calendar to arrive at 551.25 days representing the shortfall in terms of the overall number of days in which 49 Hebraic Calendar dating system of years differ from 49 Gregorian calendar dating system of years.
Step 3:
Now, divide (/) 365.25 (Gregorian calendar) days of the year into 551.25 (Hebraic calendar) days to arrive at 1.5 years. This means 49 years in terms of the Hebraic Calendar is comparatively shorter than 49 years in relation to the Gregorian calendar by least 1.5 years or approximately 2 years. Add 49 years plus (+) 2 years to make up a total of 51 years.
It can therefore be deduced that 49 Hebrew prophetic days/years is equivalent to 51 Gregorian days/years when considered in context of the actual total day difference, between the Hebraic and Gregorian calendars.
It is from the 7th June, 1967 A.D., that the commandment to "restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince" "shall be seven weeks and…: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times" began to run as it relates to the building of the barrier "wall" and the eventual return of 'Messiah the Prince' at the second phase of his second advent as "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS". Revelation 19:18.
Step 4:
It is in the year 1967 A.D. that East Jerusalem was captured by the Israel Defence Forces under the command of General Moshe Dayan from under the control of The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and RESTORED BACK to Israel, that we add 51 years based on the Gregorian calendar (see computational step no. 2 above) to arrive at the year A.D. 2,018 in which Yeshua appears 'openly' to the world on the Feast Day of Atonement at His Second Advent. Read Acts 1:11
(Acts 1:11) "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
Maranatha (Even so, come, Lord Jesus.) Revelation 22:20(b)
Only just found this link which seems to match my understanding http://www.prophecyproof.org/2011/05/critiquing-the-september-23-2015-rapture-speculation/
This is error: Daniels 70 weeks is much simpler than all this.
Daniel 9
24 'Seventy "sevens"[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]
25 'Know and understand this: from the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens", and sixty-two "sevens". It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two "sevens", the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.
The prophecy simply states that 69 (62+7) weeks of years (173,880 days using the 360 day prophetic year) after the command goes forth to restore and rebuild the city of Jerusalem (the date of Artaxerexes decree to Nehemiah) the Messiah will come(triumphal entry into Jerusalem on a donkey a few days before his crucifixion). If we count forward 173,880 days from March 14th 445 B.C.(decree date) we arrive at April 6th 32 A.D.
The reason the 7 'sevens' (49 prophetic years = 48.29 actual years) is split from the 62 sevens is because the 7 sevens simply denote
how long it took to rebuild Jerusalem (including walls and temple – the temple alone took 46 years – John 2:20 The Jews then said, "It took FORTY-SIX years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?") from the date of the decree.
To move the seven 'sevens' to applying instead to modern times instead of back then means that you can only use 62 weeks in relation to Jesus being cut off (crucified) which when you back track from the year of His death does not lead back to the year of the decree.
In addition, all this aside, there are NO grounds for pinning a start date of the 70th week (covenant signing).
K.I.S.S. – you might be unnecessarily focussing peoples minds on a specific date and some may end up making specific preparations – multiple historic failed date predictions should indicate that pinpointing future dates is a dodgy business at best.
sorry…to clarify further 69 weeks of prophetic years = 69 * 7 prophetic years = 483 prophetic years (ie years having 360 days (= 483 *360/365.25) = 476 calendar years) and 476 years future to 445BC = 32 AD
I agree with most of what you say except that your starting point should not be when the city was recaptured but when the decree was issued to rebuild the city. That was June 28, 1967. The 49 sevens end on Oct 13, 2015. That will be the date that the final seven years will begin. Daniel said it would be to the coming of the ruler. Rather than type my entire view here you can see it at 62cutoff. Thanks
I am 47 years old and I have always been taught that the Body of Christ would be taken away before the tribulation. Last year I was given a different side of the scripture of how we the body of Christ will be on earth when the tribulation take place. I am searching the Bible and using the strong exhaustive concordance. Above all of this I am praying to God for his guidance and understanding of his word. I pray that all of us can know the truth. We must all continue to seek God for his interpretation of his word.
but seeing as you mentioned strongs….
An interesting snippet from Strongs on the word Harpazo (the Greek word used for the rapture)
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. NOT covertly or secretly).
So where's this SECRET rapture ??
We are taken away before the tribulation, look at all the stories in the bible where God gets His people out before judgment. I suggest you listen to derek walker from Oxford church in London on this subject, he explains everything through scripture. Blessings and peace to you..
Suzy the judgments (trumpet and bowl – requested by the martyrs at seal 5) only begin after the number of martyrs is completed at seal 6 (persecution/martyrdom is not Gods judgment – its satans wrath – Daniel says the saints are handed over to A/C – by whom do you think ??). After that God's people have a 'passover' experience (see Exodus) through the trumpets and bowls. Only the 7th bowl is of Sodom and Gomorrah / flood proportions – THATS when we're outta here….
◄ 1 Thessalonians 5:9,10
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.…
GOD's wrath is only the last 7 judgments which are according to John in Revelation the bowl judgments or the vial judgments. We will all be around until the 7th trumpet, and that is when JESUS is going to take this world from satan. He will possess it at that time. Right now its satan's world, but that's going to change.
Revelation 11:15-19.
wandakate – please see my entire reply trail against principal post from nagema (February 12, 2015 at 11:59 am) for comprehensive proof regarding the precise point within the 7th trumpet 'umbrella' (ie the 7 bowls) the rapture occurs
I would submit this. There is great controversy over pre, mid and post trib because Scripture has verses that seem to clearly indicate each. But that would make Scripture contradict itself, which cannot be. However, as I see Scripture, it refers to a time of tribulation as well as a Great Tribulation. If you look at these two as not one, but two separate times, then the rapture falls after the time of tribulation (post), before the Great Tribulation (pre) which means, between the two (mid). Its the only way all of Scripture fits without contradiction.
Arthur: my 2 cents (or rather pence) worth.
Seal 1 (covenant signing) – seal 4 (midpoint) = A/C acquiring his kingdom and necessarily causing havoc while he gets there – same old same old but intensified false christs, war , famine (neither tribulation nor judgment – simply domain acquisition)
tribulation = Great tribulation = seal 4 (midpoint) to seal 6 (sun, moon and stars blackened) = intense persecution of God's people = THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF TRIBULATION/GREAT TRIBULATION – no sign at all of this outside of seal 4 – 6
Seal 6 – end of seal 7 judgments (tribulation already ended at 6) – judgment period begins
my two cents on your post: in the original greek Scripture there is a twelve point difference between tribulation = δοκιμασία/dokimasía, (Matthew 24:4-20 and Rev 6:1-2), meaning more like distress, affliction and it will come to Israel (Matt 24:20, "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath".) and the Great tribulation = μεγάλη θλίψη/megáli̱ thlípsi̱ (Matthew 24:21, Rev 6″12-17).
my biggest confusion comes from the fact that i'm not sure if the events described in Revelation are in chronological order; if they are, whether dead or alive, those from Rev 7:9-17 are already in heaven and are not going to be affected by what's coming from Rev 8:5 through 20:10. that would leave a lot of questions in my mind: how did they get there? were they snatched away? if they were, those from Rev14:13 had to be among them, since all dead in Christ will rise first and then those that are alive (1Thess 4:15-17). then Rev 6:11 already took place and that makes Revelation non-chronological, in which case anything goes. i need help with that dilemma. do you have a different view?
Peter: you've asked no small thing but here goes…
1st , 2nd and 3rd seal = 1st 3.5 years
4th seal = midpoint
5th seal (Rev 6:11) saints killed since the 4th seal cry out for judgment (trumpets and bowls) "wait 'til the FULL NUMBER of your brothers and sisters are killed like you" –
point in time indeterminate – before the end of the 2nd half
6th seal = pre cursor to trumpet and bowl judgments (answer to saints prayer) – point in time indeterminate – before the end of the 2nd half
– my take is that the 6th seal appears at a time known only to God when enough Christians have been martyred so there's enough left to rapture – A/C tries to wipe them out asap. 144,000 are sealed from the judgments and the full number of martyrs suddenly appears in heaven – the trumpet judgments now have the go ahead…
7th seal = trumpet judgments 1-6
– point in time indeterminate – before the end of the 2nd half
trumpet 7 (bowls 1-7 at or after the end of the 2nd half)
Chap 6-10 all chron. upto the 6th trumpet
There's a bit of zooming in and back tracking from now on……
Chap 7 = back tracks to sealing of the 144,000 PRIOR TO ALL the trumpets + full number of martyrs appears in heaven – trumpets can now proceed. Living believers already have the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT – not mentioned though.
Chap 11 – backtracks to midpoint and leads into 7th trumpet (end) – 2
Chap 12 & 13 Hurried repeat of the history of the enmity between the seed of the woman and the serpent origins (Israel and satan) followed by in depth detail about the beasts release by Michael & reign in the 2nd half (though beast much depleted and slowed during the trumpets)
Chap 14 – 19 All occur at/soon after the end of the 7 years and is mostly chronological except that 17-19a are devoted to 'Mystery Babylon' identity and downfall
Rapture occurs at the end just prior to the 7th bowl
I suppose then the answer to your question is that the 'great multitude' (NB heaven not the clouds) is solely the tribulation(persecution) martyrs from the midpoint (4th seal) to the 6th seal – NOT the whole of Christendom – indicating that the precondition for the trumpets is complete ("these are they that have come out of the great tribulation – clearly only a subset of all believers ever"
The rapture is all believers (dead and alive – Rev 14:14-16) and is at the end of the 2nd half and occurs on the clouds readying for Armageddon war.
…the 144,000 are a remnant of natural Jews insulated from EVERYTHING….saints just the preserved from the judgments but A/C too preoccupied with trumpet judgments to kill any more saints……
…devil tries to kill all God's people to prevent birth (2nd coming) of Jesus….
Also…Rev 12…between Israel (the woman) 's SEED (Jesus) and the serpent..refers back to the Genesis fall curses.
Jesus = male child – snatch up = His ascension
serpent swiped 1/3 stars out of the sky (caused 1/3 of angels to follow him after he fell in ages past)
Note: the trumpets and bowl judgments are different in nature:-
NB the trumpets (warnings) are about permission given to the powers of darkness to destroy the fraction they have authority over (1/3 – relating to the fraction of angels that fell) – ch 7 the angel holds back the 'winds' (fallen angels / actual winds ?) until the 144,000 are sealed – this all shows God's sovereignty over the powers of darkness (which some may have doubted whilst the martyring was happening).
The bowls are God's DIRECT hand of judgment and impact EVERYTHING (not limited to 1/3) – He has authority over ALL.
the 2 witnesses (Moses / Elijah ?) call forth the 6 trumpet judgments- a bit like Moses in Egypt…. God's people alive during the judgments have a 'passover' experience – Jew and Gentile are 'one'
…..the confusion arises because of repeated backtracking to cover key players/events in full (i.e. 2 witnesses / beasts reign) other than that it's actually broadly chronological
…apologies Chap 7 is a 'zoom in' of 2 specific events and fits CHRONOLOGICALLY between Ch 6 and 8 (ch 7 are post 6th seal – pre 7th seal events)
Daniel refs:
Dan 9
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'[h] In the MIDDLE of the 'seven'[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an ABOMINATION THAT CAUSES DESOLATION
Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall WEAR OUT the SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH, and think to change times and laws: and they SHALL BE GIVEN INTO HIS HAND until a time and times and the dividing of time (3.5 YEARS)
In fact….do you want to know something ?………….. On the basis of Matt 24 (and perhaps Daniel to show Abom of Desol starts at the midpoint of the 7) alone post 'great trib' is proven (not to mention it's Jesus saying it !!)….. but Paul confirms it for good measure. It's SO CLEAR why don't more get it ? I'll tell you ….FEAR, COMFORT… to name but 2…..
oh….and because their favourite preacher teaches what they want to hear (in order to keep their living)…….
Let me put another way in terms of a simple example:-
"The day of Tommy's birthday arrived (read Abom. of Desol.).
It was a cause for GREAT CELEBRATION.
IMMEDIATELY AFTER the CELEBRATION 'THAT DAY' we all fell on our beds completely exhausted !"
1) Its clear that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE 'GREAT' CELEBRATION we fell on our beds
2) It's clear the GREAT CELEBRATION and CELEBRATION are referring to the same timeframed event.
Poor example I know but hopefully proves my point ….:)
Nice try but don't look more closely at Matt 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For THEN THERE SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the TRIBULATION 'OF THOSE DAYS' shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER HIS ELECT from the four winds.
1) The abomination of desolation occurs at the midpoint of the 7 (Daniel tells us that)
2) Thus commences the GREAT TRIBULATION (Jesus says)
3) Jesus then later is simply BACK REFERENCING the GREAT TRIBULATION when saying IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION '….OF THOSE DAYS…..'
That he didn't say IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS (which is very bad 'English' by the way) seems like a classic attempt to get the scriptures to match your preconceptions/wishes. CONTEXT CONTEXT
i.e. there was no need to repeat the adjective GREAT later in the passage as the TRIBULATION has already been previously described as GREAT – it is sufficient to later refer simply to the TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS since the 'GREAT' aspect of it is already inferred and not necessary to repeat later on – this is all basic English !
Dawn: No real need for strongs concordance…Thankfully Jesus and Paul made it crystal clear the timing of the rapture……see my post dated February 1, 2015 at 10:15 am
Since satan is the god of this world, he hates GOD's people. He will be allowed to bring judgment on the whole world (saved + unsaved) through the seal and trumpet judgments. The last set of 7 judgments are the wrath of GOD. The church "is not" appointed to the wrath of GOD therefore they will be removed before the last 7 bowl/vial judgments of Revelation. JESUS told us we would suffer. He warned us that we would be marthred for our faith in him. He told us that the ones who made it until the end would be saved. The ones who didn't take the mark of the beast. Read Matthew 5:1-12, and towards the end of that is that warning. Men will revile us and persecute us, and say all manner of evil against us falsely for His sake. The prophets were persecuted and so shall we be. Only the ones who keep the commandments of GOD will be the ones in the Kingdom of GOD. JESUS said only the ones who do the will of the FATHER. We are saved by grace yes, but we will be judged by our works and obedience is the key.
JESUS will appear at the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19) and remove the church. Michael the Archangel is the restrainer, it's not the HOLY SPIRIT that most have been deceived into thinking. Michael is the guardian of GOD's church (his people). Upon notification from GOD, Michael will step aside and that is when all you know what will happen. Satan will lose, JESUS will come and take the kingdoms of this world from satan.
JESUS will appear in the clouds of heaven with his host/multitude of heavenly angels and the graves will at that time open up. All of those who ever died were still in their graves, not up in heaven. They will rise up (they won't be coming down). The people who are still alive at that time will also rise up (be raptured) and meet them in the air. They will at that time receive their immortal bodies that will be fit for the kingdom of GOD. They will be spiritual bodies, not fleshly bodies like we not possess. The appearing and the rapture are the same event. All those saved souls will go to be with JESUS at that time.
Search scriptures and you will find all of this. I have nothing to gain by deceiving you. My comments are truth and have no charge involved. Bless you…
21 And he said to him, "See, I have favored you concerning this thing also, in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken. 22 Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there."
( Angel says: We need to get you out of there before fire and brimstone comes down… ). —- We will be saying , thank you Lord for getting us out of the tribulation !,,
You speak as if the entire 7 year endtime period will be fire and brimstone…..it won't be….
1) The first 3.5 will be relatively peaceful (allowing the 3rd temple to be built so antichrist can declare himself god there)
2) A unknown length of the last 3.5 years (after A/Cs revealing at the midpoint) will be trouble/TRIBULATION/persecution for GODS PEOPLE ONLY (via beheadings and for those that escape detection… hunger via economic sanction) – it will be a false peace for the rest of the world because there will be a fake 'oneness of mind' (utopia) in the absence of the conscience/truth that God's people would otherwise bring.
3) Of all the 6 trumpet and subsequent 7 bowl judgments only the 7th bowl will be of the order to be compared to Sodom and Gomorrah's judgment but the 7th bowl occurs right near the END OF THE 7 YEARS.
4) I agree with you that God's faithful people will not taste that (or any of the other judgments – they are specifically all directed at the unbelieving world – which martyr the saints – in answer to their '5th seal' prayers)
What I'm trying to say is…..there's no justification for us being outta here (in S&G style) until THE END of the 7 years
1st 3 1/2. Years called the tribulation and the last 31/2 years is the great tribulation
Daniel refs:
Dan 9
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'[h] In the MIDDLE of the 'seven'[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an ABOMINATION THAT CAUSES DESOLATION
Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall WEAR OUT the SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH, and think to change times and laws: and they SHALL BE GIVEN INTO HIS HAND until a time and times and the dividing of time (3.5 YEARS)
In fact….do you want to know something ?………….. On the basis of Matt 24 (and perhaps Daniel to show Abom of Desol starts at the midpoint of the 7) alone post 'great trib' is proven (not to mention it's Jesus saying it !!)….. but Paul confirms it for good measure. It's SO CLEAR why don't more get it ? I'll tell you ….FEAR, COMFORT… to name but 2…..
oh….and because their favourite preacher teaches what they want to hear (in order to keep their living)…….
Let me put another way in terms of a simple example:-
"The day of Tommy's birthday arrived (read Abom. of Desol.).
It was a cause for GREAT CELEBRATION.
IMMEDIATELY AFTER the CELEBRATION 'THAT DAY' we all fell on our beds completely exhausted !"
1) Its clear that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE 'GREAT' CELEBRATION we fell on our beds
2) It's clear the GREAT CELEBRATION and CELEBRATION are referring to the same timeframed event.
Poor example I know but hopefully proves my point ….:)
Nice try but don't look more closely at Matt 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For THEN THERE SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the TRIBULATION 'OF THOSE DAYS' shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER HIS ELECT from the four winds.
1) The abomination of desolation occurs at the midpoint of the 7 (Daniel tells us that)
2) Thus commences the GREAT TRIBULATION (Jesus says)
3) Jesus then later is simply BACK REFERENCING the GREAT TRIBULATION when saying IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION '….OF THOSE DAYS…..'
That he didn't say IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS (which is very bad 'English' by the way) seems like a classic attempt to get the scriptures to match your preconceptions/wishes. CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT….
To use
further to this….I don't fully understand the 1st 4 seals and I know this makes the 1st 3.5 years sounds like a period of disruption (but then there have always been false religions, wars and famines) but the point is this isn't a period of fire and brimstone from heaven – it will be a time of peace for Israel though.
Like I said in my previous post, the Lord shows some of us deep things of the spirit…. it doesn't come down to what many of us are doing, using your own understanding. The bible always tells the truth!
One thing has become clear to me in all my posting to this blog……you can present the clearest evidence from scripture you can but if someone is so entrenched in something then nothing will move them. You say you believe that the bible is the truth ? Please take some time to go though my posts proving beyond doubt from the mouth of Jesus and Paul that a post tribulation rapture is the biblical rapture.
Peter warns us of "personal interpretations." Your posts are your own interpretations. Others see things differently and are condemned. Most Protestants want to condemn instead of have dialogues about the differences. Probably because, in the end, Protestants and Catholics agree on more than you think. Peace.
PS: BTW, Kev, Catholics believe in "post-tribulation." Who knew? Peace.
JoAnn : I found that out some time ago – and all credit to it for that – but it nowhere near counterbalances the myriad of false (pagan based) doctrines it holds to. I bet the pope would be willing to change the churches doctrine (I'm sure he could do that) on just about anything if it promoted 'unity' of world religions and 'daughter' churches.
However if u not going to believe in the rapture, you are not going to be raptured. I know that Jesus loves you all and wants all to attend his supper
I believe in the rapture just not one that will take us outta here before all hell breaks loose….
that is not the definition of a rapture then. it looks to me that you think that after the tribulation -the great one that is- everybody would be standing around and waiting to be raptured, only to return again on earth to reign with Jesus for a thousand years. it makes no sense!
Peter: regarding your latest post:-
"when will you guys give up…..". I don't need to use some flaky argument regarding absence of the word rapture I have the whole weight of Jesus and Pauls words to back me up. I was merely addressing that you appeared to be saying that the word 'rapture' carries with it connotations of ecstasy which would would not appear to agree with the event occurring at the end of the tribulation 1) The word 'rapir' you mentioned is Latin not Greek and Greek was the original language – the Greek word is harpazo – I understand there was a lot of subsequent Latinisation of the Bible in the first few hundreds AD which I can't really speak for(I trust the original more). 2) I would actually tend to think it would be even MORE ecstatic an experience at the end of the tribulation as we will be so much more desperate, relieved and smitten when it happens.
Regarding the bloodied bride:
Somewhere in Proverbs it says "Beatings purge the inmost being". Since when was Jesus interested in the final state of our mortal bodies. They get transformed into immortal at the 'rapture' anyway – he's far more interested in our inner person and if it takes suffering to get there (entirely biblical concept) he's not averse – its just so alien to us in the west (so far). "If you want a tribulation you'll get one…." IF ONLY I could get to write a wish list …wouldn't that be just great !!! NONE OF US DO THOUGH – IT HAPPENS EXACTLY THE WAY GOD HAS PLANNED IT.
Regarding those left around by the end just look at my recent response showing the 'BEHOLD I COME AS A THIEF…STAY AWAKE…' between the 6th and 7th BOWL – ie right at the end – (WHO EXACTLY IS HE MEANT TO BE REFERENCING AT THIS JUNCTURE ????).
Peter grigore: I do need to respond to your comments to clarify some things. None of this is assuring but I'd rather by fully alert and have my senses about me than in a stupor with the pre-trib sedative when the time comes and unable to respond as needed. I also feel a measure of compulsion to share the reveIation (possibly not the widest forum :)). I respond to my own questions simply to indicate they are simply a continuation of the train of thought to the comment I'm replying to.
"No one knows the day or the hour" I believe is referring to the sixth seal sign whose arrival has to coincide with the number of saints destined to be martyred being completed (which only God will know).
The ref you quoted 2 Pe 1 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. does not carry the meaning you're implying. I'm not creating my own Bible I'm mostly quoting from THE 'already inspired' Bible and then explaining my understanding of them.
it must be so assuring: you ask and you also respond to your own questions. you probably wrote alone a new Bible right here. obviously to you the verse from Matt 24:36
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" means nothing, same as 2 Peter 1:20 "no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation". no reply required! just keep doing your thing.
Let me clarify 'satans ministers of light'. I've no doubting many such ministers are genuine and may well have picked up their bad doctrine from reputable bible colleges – I merely meant in terms of teaching this particular doctrine they are wittingly or unwittingly spreading a very clever satanic lie….and don't go thinking there's safety in numbers ('broad is the road…..') !
…and no matter all these false 'pre-trib' teachers (satans ministers of light)…they won't plead your cause when the time comes …they'll be too busy saving their own skins and preserving their vast wealth….
…and why would we "give up" when we've had our eyes opened and realise the majority of our brothers and sisters are heading to sleepwalk into the endtimes primed to embrace A/C and one world religion (you think not ? If you're deceived on this point tell me why would you be deceived on something else). satans agents will be 'ministers of light' – just look at the 1st seal horseman intently for a while and tell me how long it takes you to realise its NOT Jesus – bonus points if I'm proved wrong.
The bible also only refers to ONE gathering which is also referred to as the FIRST RESURRECTION. So is there a ZERO'TH PRE-TRIB RAPTURE ?
….and why exactly are genuine repentance opportunities apparently being given at the 4th and 5th bowl ?
sorry…and harpazo carries no connotation of ecstasy…simply of snatching away / caught up / gathered – a purely physical action – no emotional aspect implied in the word at all.
peter: firstly the word rapture doesn't exist in the Bible as such – the nearest thing is the Greek word 'Harpazo' which is used in Rev 12 when referring to the 'man child being SNATCHED UP to God'. The word 'gathering' is used to denote what you call the rapture of Gods people and regardless of when it happens a gathering is simply a gathering – so to speak of the definition of 'rapture' (in biblical terms) doesn't make a lot of sense.
You say 'EVERYBODY' will be 'standing around' ….I actually believe there will be relatively few who will make it that far (though 10,000 times 10,000 (another way of saying a countless number) will be martyred – these are the multitudes in heaven having reached full number – the precondition for the judgments being poured out). Being 'raptured' I suspect is very privileged experienced (e.g. Jesus / Elijah) and few (no where does it say there would be many raptured) will qualify but regardless of martyrdom or rapture we still end up with Jesus we just bypass death if we're raptured (I suppose that's something !).
I suspect there'll be no standing around…In Rev 12 9 The great dragon was hurled down – that ancient snake called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
'Now have come the SALVATION and the POWER
and the KINGDOM of our God,
and the AUTHORITY of his Messiah.
It seems the Great Tribulation will be the churches finest hour in terms of power evangelism.
In terms of ping ponging between the clouds and earth my take is that we are kept out of the way of the 7th bowl destruction because of its severity. We return as Christs Army to defeat the gathered armies of the beast – now I know Jesus defeats them all by Himself with His word but He choses to share that glory with His saints !
Also…..the 'great multitude' in Ch 7 can't be the rapture (pre-wrath view) because:
1) They are only a subset of believers (i.e. tribulation martyrs) – the rapture will be ALL believers from all time(OT+NT onwards).
2) Why would there be concern about 'FLESH being saved' at the 'cutting short' (i.e. believers left alive on earth) if all believers are raptured into heaven anyway (btw rapture occurs in the 'air' not in 'heaven') at the point of the 6th seal ?
The 'variable start date' trumpet judgments will be used to restrict A/Cs activity (pre-occupy him) until the LAST DAY (of the 70th week) when the resurrection/rapture will happen just as has always been intended.
Peter grigore: the 3rd group (living saints) is evident from the following:-
Matt 24
21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should NO FLESH be saved: but for the ELECT's sake those days shall be SHORTENED.
It is evident that God prevents outright martyring of ALL his saints by bringing the 6th seal forward(there are no timing constraints to prevent this being the case except the 5month demonic torture but that only 1 of the trumpets). That's how there are saints still alive.
Peter: …never said 'no rapture'….just no PRE-TRIB rapture
….and to add to the 'pretty amazing experiences' …..if you make it really far you get raptured….fantastic !!!
oh…last one….
12 The SIXTH angel poured out his BOWL on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 'LOOK, I COME LIKE A THIEF! BLESSED IS THE ONE WHO SAYS AWAKE and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.'
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air,
Why do saints need a warning at this specific juncture in time if nobody's around to hear it……………………..ANY ONE STILL NOT CONVINCED ???????
….apologies …also if REPENTANCE is the purpose (or at least one object) of the bowls why would the saints be suffering them ? – the only conclusion is that they are not – PROTECTED !
so persecution aside….what with power evangelism and passover experience we get to have some pretty amazing experiences (exploits) with and of God….well worth seeing through …not to mention it's far better in eternity than trading for a couple of years on earth with what would face afterwards…..all in all a great deal for believers (might not seem like it at first though)…GET READY NOW THOUGH !!!
…oh and isn't God amazingly gracious by the way !!!
….and further support that we're still around 'til the 7th bowl:-
1) We know that when the rapture happens then its game over (Noah and the 'shut door' of the ark tells us that)
2) At the end of the 4th and 5th bowl judgment:
8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they REFUSED TO REPENT and glorify him.
10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they REFUSED TO REPENT of what they had done.
Are you trying to say these didn't really get a fair crack at repentance ? That's like saying Revelation is lying. Of course they did it's just their hearts were rock solid.
…and we know the opportunity of repentance ends at the rapture (that's the wedding of the readied bride – no room for latecomers !!) …so the RAPTURE must follow sometime after these repentance opportunities….
…and if your wondering 'how on earth can the church (specifically true saints) be around for all the trumpet and all but one of the bowl judgments' here is the reason:-
1) Once post trib is established and therefore that believers are around for rapture right up 'til 7th bowl…believers have to be around 'til then for the rapture scriptures to be true.
1) The clear teaching of the NT is that Jew and Gentile are one in Christ..Jews are around but so are saints…so those saints faithful and patient enough to make it to the time of the trumpets will have the privilege of the 'passover' experience…the sealed 144,000 Jews are insulated from EVERYTHING (persecution and judgments – believers just the judgments – remember the judgments are in response to the 5th seal saints prayer for justice so they can't be directed at saints)
2) 144,000 Jews are sealed for protection but you see…..believers don't need to be especially mentioned as sealed BECAUSE THEY ALREADY ARE SEALED FOR PROTECTION (Eph 4:30 30 And do not grieve the HOLY SPIRIT of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were SEALed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the DAY OF REDEMPTION (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).) ….not to mentioned that Jesus is saints passover lamb but it amounts to the same….."Aaaaah but you're adding to Revelation….you'll suffer the plagues !!!' That's like saying that those who say the church is still around despite non-explicit mention after Rev 3 (i.e. post tribbers) are adding to Revelation….they are simply inferring what must be true but not explicitly stated based on circumstances.
"firstly the word rapture doesn't exist in the Bible" it is in my Bible ("răpire"). when are you guys going to give it up to use this as argument that there is no rapture? anyways, if you want tribulation you will get one: Jer 5:13. but a bride like that will be looking pretty ruffled up if she went through the great tribulation, don't you think? to me, only those that took the mark will be left until the end -if any- because the others have been beheaded already. i do not see a third group.
In addition with regard to the 'ping ponging' between the clounds and earth…..it was apparently a custom to go out to greet conquerors and welcome them in…….
That's because we won't be taken out before it all happens. We will know who the antichrist is, we will know what the mark of the beast will be. Nobody's going anywhere as you have discovered. That's all false gospel known as the feel good gospel where their itching ears are filled with things that will allow them to sleep at night b/c they think they are going to escape all of this chaos and truth is they're not going to be going anywhere as it's not Biblical. JESUS said we would suffer, he did not tell us that we were going anywhere. We will not be removed, we will be protected if it's His will. He went to the garden and He prayed to the FATHER GOD and He asked GOD to protect the ones that you have given to me, don't remove them. Protection but not removal. No secret rapture is coming. They are scared to death of the future and the rapture before the tribulation just comforts them and makes them feel good. But, JESUS said that the truth will set you free, not deceit and lies. First thing He told His disciples was…Do not be deceived. Millions are deceived, and will not be prepared mentally, physically or spiritually for those perilous times that JESUS warned us about. I hope more find the truth before it's too late for them. I am have that you know truth and haven't believed lies.
I know farm life. The crops is harvested when the are ready as a hole. Some gets rotten and remains in the field for compost. The weeds is also pulled up but gathered on a Heep. The ripe crops are taken away on the truck where it meets the rest of the beg.. the weeds however is later collected to be burned up. Like biblical story. The bride of God grows up amongst the seed of Satan. Satan's seed/so try to choke Gods seed/the bride. Some ssed remain strong and becomes stronger against the bad seed,some gets choked and doesn't get pulled up with the unchoked/or the ripe. Satan's crop moves together after the ripe is taken away. some rotten or unripe seed of God mixes with the bad seed and get burnt. Few remains and produces new seed.
No one is trying to convince you of anything! You have already convinced yourself. The bible says the comforter has to be removed before the time of the end. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit and also a God head and CAN NOT be here during the 7 year tribulation and his own wrath. If he dwells in each one of us, he has to take us with him or we would be no better than the heathens! Believe what you want..I know what the Lord has revealed to me and WE ARE NOT APPOINTED TO HIS WRATH! God Bless and looking for him to come SOON!!!!
Terri: Thessalonians only refers to 'HE' (can't be the church – 'SHE') being 'taken out of the way' and not specifically the Holy Spirit. It is quite likely from Paul's wording that he gave them prior teaching on the identity of the restrainer so just needed to resort to the pronoun HE (the letter was really to them – we are just side beneficiaries of it's contents). Unfortunately (or intentionally ?) WE are left to deduce the restrainer's identity from other scriptures (Rev 12 and Daniel – Archangel Michael whose restraining (protection) is linked to God's peoples embracing or otherwise of His ways/truth – apostasy/lawlessness). If you look at my latest post on Mk 13:35 you'll see that perhaps not everybody is meant to see exactly when he's really coming otherwise perhaps we wouldn't all need to watch until the actual time comes. The sooner we stop taking the pre-trib sedative and get adjusted to the reality of God's word the better equipped we will be in the long run (not easy at first though – it's a bit like coming out of a very dark cave after a long time to come into really bright sunlight)
2 Thess 2
5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till HE is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed….
…of course knowing 'when' doesn't mean we get out of having to watch….it just means we know more precisely what things to watch out for (and be prepared for) in their proper time…..
Terri: The tribulation is Satan's wrath, not God's. God's wrath is Armageddon. I believe that the "restrainer" is Michael the Arch-Angel. He has been on earth battling Satan from the beginning. One day God will "call off" Michael and Satan will be boundless. I believe that will be when the anti-christ is revealed. Then, at the end of the tribulation, God will allow Michael to return for one last battle to defend God's people against the anti-christ and his minionsl Dan. 12:1 Since "no one knows the time but the Father" we must "always" be prepared. Peace.
If I was the Apostle Paul. In those days , speaking to the people saying.
"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed". , what would the people be thinking? I don't think they would be thinking about the trumpet judgements in Revelation , as The book of Revelation would not been written until 40 years later. But they would know about the last trumpet. In the series of trumpet sounds in the feast of. Trumpets, which occurs every year in those times , and also God said in Numbers 10:8. …..shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations. , I like in Exodus 19:19 Moses heard ….As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him… The Lord came DOWN. Moses went UP.
Picture of the rapture to me…
And about the timing of the rapture. —
◄ 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ►
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…
◄ 1 Thessalonians 5:9,10
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.…
No Wrath. No tribulation. =. Pre-Trib
The words flog, dead and horse all spring to my mind. I've already mentioned the issue of the 7th trumpet being the last trumpet in a previous post. If the Holy Spirit inspired both Paul and Johns writings which Timothy testifies ALL scripture is God Breathed why is it such a leap to believe that they are one and the same trumpet ? Why choose to base a future event whose timing is very significant to our being appropriately prepared on something abstract, vague , tenuous and 'D – E – E – P' instead of simplicity ? Also cf rapture timing – the scripture you quoted does NOT prove it's timing but simply when the living will be raptured RELATIVE to when the dead will be raised namely the former AFTER the latter and if you care to look at the NT refs (something like 5 ?) to the timing of the resurrection of the dead it is always said to be AT THE LAST DAY. Logic dictates then that the living will be raptured ON OR AFTER THE LAST DAY – S I M P L E (Remember when Jesus was tempted the devil used ONE verse but Jesus QUALIFIED it with – made it conditional on – another.)……my posts have dealt with all this comprehensively anyway – please take time to look at them.
One more time…..TRIBULATION is persecution of God's people (the NT confirms this time and time again), WRATH is God's answer to the 5th seals saints prayer for justice for their martyrdom and which the saints will be protected from by the seal THEY ALREADY HAVE (the Holy Spirit)….how long do I have to bang these drums ? Does anybody read anybody elses posts ?
Kev says:
February 19, 2015 at 10:31 am
further to this….I don't fully understand……
Sounds like. Kev. Doesn't fully understand any of it!
A final question to all pre-tribbers out there…..
in light of ….Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall WEAR OUT the SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH, and think to change times and laws: and they SHALL BE GIVEN INTO HIS HAND until a time and times and the dividing of time (3.5 YEARS)
what makes you think God is ready to KEEP YOU FROM ANTICHRISTS HANDS via a pre-trib rapture….
Numbers 23:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should CHANGE HIS MIND.
Sorry these just keep coming to me…….
Try one more for size….
Matt 13
28 "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29 "'No,' he answered (NO TO A PREMATURE PRE/MID TRIB/PRE WRATH PULLING UP), 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together (THE WICKED GROW COMPLETELY WICKED, HARDENED & THE RIGHTEOUS GROW COMPLETELY PURIFIED THROUGH TRIBULATION – ARE WE THERE YET ?? NO COMPROMISE ON THIS CONDITION) until the harvest (GATHERING/RAPTURE). At that time (SAME TIME AS EACH OTHER ? SOUNDS LIKE IT TO ME) I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds (GATHERING OF THE TARES (ARMIES) READYING FOR ARMAGEDDON) and tie them in bundles to be burned (7TH BOWL DEVASTATION); then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn .'RAPTURED ONTO THE CLOUDS WITH JESUS" The harvest is the END (NOTE: 'END') of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom (LEAVE THEM ON EARTH) everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace (7TH BOWL DEVASTATION WHILE WE ARE WATCHING ON FROM THE CLOUDS (I BELIEVE))
Sorry just HAD to add this one in support of my 'seal' theory:
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, with whom you were SEALed for the DAY OF REDEMPTION.
I'm gone….
….Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall WEAR OUT the SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH, and think to change times and laws: and they SHALL BE GIVEN INTO HIS HAND until a time and times and the dividing of time (3.5 YEARS).
To close…Saints (I believe) will be protected from the trumpet /bowl judgments but not from antichrist's rampage (spot the subtle difference) but the judgments will have slowed his mission down…..over and out….
This really is my last word on the matter: I have re-considered my position with regard to 'no man knoweth the day or the hour' I believe this can be reconciled with 'post-trib' as follows:-
Until we see the abomination of desolation we won't know the day or the hour of the rapture BUT once we see it we WILL know that it will be exactly 3.5 years in the future.
Jesus whilst on earth wasn't in the 'final 7′ years and he didn't know when the '7' was going to begin so he didn't therefore know the exact date of his return(i.e. the last day of the 7 years).
1 Thess 5:4
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are NOT IN DARKNESS so that THIS DAY SHOULD SURPRISE YOU AS A THIEF.
Apologies…this really is my last post but I just want to add in support of living believers having to live though right upto before the 7th bowl: People will say 'God wouldn't allow us to endure all those judgments prior to the 7th bowl' and you'd be right. We will be HERE but I believe protected by a 'seal' – and this will mirror Pharoah and the plagues where a distinction is made between God's people and the rest of the world. Now let me say at this point that Revelation only refers to 144,000 Jews being sealed for protection but let me state what I BELIEVE but that is not stated:-
1) God is constrained by His promise to Abraham to preserve a Jewish remnant so they needed to be sealed for protection and clearly weren't upto that point.
2) This 'seal' I BELIEVE is the Holy Spirit only because elsewhere in the NT this 'type' exists.
3) Now believers (saints) by default already have the Holy Spirit (so if indeed this 'seal' being referred to is the Holy Spirit) then by default any living SAINT already will have this 'seal' and so does not need to be especially granted it for protection and therefore it doesn't need to be mentioned that they are ALREADY PROTECTED BY DEFAULT.
What I am therefore trying to say is that I BELIEVE living believers will still be around AND be afforded the same protection from the trumpet and bowl judgments as the 144,000 jews ! Therefore believers are STILL HERE BUT PROTECTED !! But as I am wary not to add to Revelation I want to EMPHASISE that this is JUST MY BELIEF and how I reconcile the previous post that believers appear to be still around upto prior to the 7th bowl. The 6th bowl is the gathering of the chaff (armies of the world) and what I glean is that the gathering of the wheat occurs sometime between the 6th and 7th bowl which could span quite a number of days (while the armies are gathering) so to say 'no man knoweth the DAY or the HOUR' (very narrow units of time) does not contradict imminence or 'BEHOLD I COME AS A THIEF'. The 7th bowl is so severe that there is NO WAY we can be around for that – I BELIEVE we'll be watching the 7th bowl's effects from the clouds (as I BELIEVE will be the 'by now believing' 144,000 Jews). So when we see Jesus on earth with them then this is because they DESCENDED TOGETHER (I BELIEVE).
I'm going to progressively disprove all non 'post trib' viewpoints with the following scriptures and then I'm going to leave you all to mull them over:-
NB for correctness I'm going to refer to '7' instead of 'trib' because 'tribulation' is strictly biblically referring to the persecution/killing on God's people (look up the all the references to tribulation elsewhere in the NT if you don't believe me).
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND BY OUR GATHERING UNTO HIM(resurrection/rapture),
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS: for that day SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin BE REVEALED, the son of perdition;
(the man of sin we know is only 'revealed' in his true light 'mid 7′) so with just 1 scripture 'pre trib' is debunked……let's go on…
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, TAKE HEED THAT NO MAN DECEIVE YOU……
29 Immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 AND he shall send his angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET, and they shall GATHER(resurrection/rapture) together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This already eliminates 'mid 7′ (commonly referred to as mid trib) because we know that the tribulation(persecution) ONLY JUST COMMENCES when the man of sin is revealed.
Now before I go onto disprove 'pre-wrath' I want to say it's only because advocates claim that it's just before ALL bowl judgments (encompassed by the 7th trumpet) that we are raptured.
Now the following 2 scripture appears to support that:-
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST (7th) trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thess 4
15 ACCORDING TO THE LORDS WORD, we tell you that WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE, who are LEFT UNTIL the coming of the Lord, will CERTAINLY NOT PRECEDE those who have fallen asleep (i.e. DIED). 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the TRUMPET call of God, and THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17 AFTER THAT, we who are STILL ALIVE and are left will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be WITH THE LORD FOREVER.
What this is saying is
1) 7th / last trumpet is sounded (7th trumpet encompasses the 7 bowls)
2) Dead are raised
3) Living are raptured
However let me show you something else….
The 7th trumpet So far so good ('pre-wrath' not yet disproven)
12 And the SIXTH angel poured out his VIAL upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 BEHOLD I COME AS A THIEF. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the SEVENTH angel poured out his VIAL into the air;
You see hear clearly AFTER the 6th bowl but BEFORE the 7th bowl a warning to watch for Jesus because he's coming to come as a THIEF (this is part of what's used by pre-tribbers to prove 'imminence' but here it is JUST BEFORE THE 7TH BOWL).
So here we are are at the 7th seal , the 7th trumpet and JUST BEFORE the 7th bowl and Jesus is saying BEHOLD I COME AS A THIEF…WATCH….. i.e. somewhere near the END of the '7'.
So 'pre-wrath' where wrath = all 7 bowls is already debunked but let's not stop there…..
John 6:40King James Version (KJV)
John 6
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will RAISE HIM UP(resurrect) at the LAST day.
John 11:24King James Version (KJV)
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall RISE AGAIN in the resurrection at the LAST day.
So if the RESURRECTION happens AT THE LAST DAY and the LIVING CANNOT PRECEDE THEM ('go first') THEN THE LIVING (rapture) must be raptured ON OR AFTER THE LAST DAY
Can I finally lay this to rest ? Much all else on this subject is hot air. No more postings I promise…just going to let the most reliable speakers from the NT (Jesus and Paul – Jesus spoke through John) say it all…….
If the above don't convince then there's only one conclusion: that you are a combination of the following:-
1) Do not hold to the infallibility of scripture
2) Rely more on feelings than faith and God's Word
3) Prefer to have your ears tickled by your most revered Bible teacher who says contrary
4) Are in denial and prefer to hear comforting things even if they are a false hope
5) Don't study the bible much your self and rely on others to do it for you
6) Don't mind being swept along by the crowd and popular opinion.
Now I'm just curious! What you wrote sounds like it should go together but it's very confusing to me! I just got a 12 book series on Revelations in hopes I can get some meaning with words for me to understand! When you put comments here are they for people like me and everyone or for just the people who understand all this the way you put in words!i I want to understand all this but it's just hard for me!! I just wish that people who say they know what all this means would put it in words that people like myself could understand! There are so many of us ( friends and family) that just give up or don't go to church because even the pastors just don't get it that a lot of people just go because they feel that it's the right thing to do!! Little do these heads of the church really know (or if they do) don't care ( as they also can go for the wrong reasons!! I'm sorry about writing this but needed to let you know that all you say is and sounds good but I'm still lost! Thank you for commenting or I would have never wrote this ( it's not you but a lot of people like me need to understand and if we can't understand then what? God knows my heart and that I believe that Jesus got screwed as he had to be human like us and go through all he went through for us!! I believe so many of us that don't understand the messages know God is so nice and loves me and forgives me as I mess up daily and ask for his forgiveness at night when I pray! Anyway, I got some stuff out and I know this is way to long but I appreciate you reading this and helping us that just don't get it ! God Bless you! Love and Peace and strength sent to you from a old hippie!! Lol friendship always Susie
Susie….I'm not a pastor or any such thing…just someone with a hunger for the truth even if that puts me at odds with others. I apologise if my explanations were a bit complex sounding I certainly didn't mean them to be. The word Revelation actually means a 'revealing' not a 'concealing' – God wants all His children to know the truth but there are states of mind and heart that can hinder that. We need to understand that there is a two sided information war going on and God wants His children to decipher correctly – the devil tries to confuse with such things as multiple rapture timing versions which console our flesh and introduce confusion. Regarding the rapture …the simplest thing I can give you to disprove it being just before the 7yr end time period and before the middle point is JESUS own words in Matt 24 '…..immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION……HE WILL GATHER (rapture of living/resurrection of the dead) HIS ELECT.I believe the best place to start is to be prepared to dump all your previous ideas (even if they're comforting to you) and come to Him with humility and openness of heart asking for the absolute truth (I believed the pre-trib rapture for 27 years until I went to God with an open heart about it). As well as this I don't believe you need 12 books to understand Revelation you just need the following:-
1) The Holy Spirit to guide your understanding
2) John actually specialized in expressing things in the simplest terms (the koine Greek he uses is very simplistic in form for the masses) so whatever is revealed will be in the simplest terms possible without compromising the integrity of the visions etc…
3) John new his old testament so there are literally hundreds of direct or indirect references to the Old Testament – so get thoroughly steeped in the OT – if you don't get this part you'll end up getting ALL kinds of misinterpretations out of Revelation.
(Note esp. Daniel and Zechariah)
4) Its mostly a overview in order of occurrence it's just that there are few sections places where it ZOOMS IN on certain things significant events e.g.
Rev 12,13 – LAST HALF OF THE 7 YEARS The beasts reign in detail
Rev 17-19 COVERS THE WHOLE 7 YEARS Identity and celebration of Mystery Babylons downfall (see the alternate blog on Irvins website for analysis of that subject)
Rev 14 – NEAR THE END OF THINGS The 144,000 Jews on earth with Jesus, the 3 angels pronouncements in sequence and the harvest of the wicked and the righteous (armageddon, rapture/resurrection)
Rev 7 – The sealing for protection of the 144,000 Jewish remnant and the full number of saints destined for martyrdom being completed and appearing in heaven (JUST PRIOR TO THE WRATH OF GOD BEING POURED OUT ON THE EARTH AS JUSTICE FOR THEIR MARTYRDOM – 7th seal). Living saints or 'saints in waiting' protected from the trumpet judgments.
Rev 11 – ANOTHER OVERVIEW OF THE 2ND HALF OF THE 7 YEARS introducing the two witnesses (Elijah/Moses like prophets) who will be the earthly agents calling forth the Trumpet judgments (and I believe will have prophesied to Israel giving warning to flee at the antichrists revealing at the 'midpoint' of the 7 years)
5) The beast reign will target first Jews and then Christians (the latter cry out for justice at the 5th seal) – Rev 13 144,000 Jewish remnant will be delivered from the Jewish genocide at the midpoint of the 7 years.
6) Interpret things LITERALLY unless it makes absolutely no sense to do so
7) Where possible let unfamiliar phrases in Revelation interpret itself and also use the rest of the NT – eg 'sits' can mean 'has authority over', waters often refers to 'masses of people' but Rev explains these terms – maybe not always be the case though.
8) The seven seals occur in time sequence
9) The seven trumpets occur in time sequence at the seventh seal
10) The seven bowls are poured out in time sequence at the sounding of the seventh trumpet
I don't pretend yet to get the timing of the 1st four seals – in someways manifestations of some of these are already here now (false christs/religion, wars, famines) but perhaps they will be at their greatest intensity at the 1st 4 seals
(certainly 2 billion people (1/4) haven't been wiped off the earth yet !)
I agree with you that I think that there is a severe lack of quality uncompromising teaching on the end times – perhaps pastors don't have the time to dig too deeply into 'confusing' things or maybe they don't want to scare people off.
and other things that will prove useful….
TRIBULATION is specifically the targeted persecution of God's people (this is satans WRATH after he is cast out of heaven by Michael at the midpoint)
WRATH = God's wrath poured out on the unbelieving world as justice for the martyrdom of and in answer to the saints prayer at the 5th seal.
THE RESTRAINER OF Thessalonians is the Archangel Michael who casts the devil out of heaven who goes on to animate(possess) the antichrist into the beast and kill / imprison Gods people worldwide.
RAPTURE occurs at the very end
SALVATION CAN BE LOST – 'Mark' must NOT be taken by believers
also a BEAST in biblical terms is a political power but specifically one that ATTACKS GOD'S PEOPLE (much like we might refer to anyone who attacks a member our family (e.g. 'a monster').
Another thing to be aware of is that some of e.g.Daniels prophecies are NOT ALL FUTURE to us – some were fulfilled prior to Christ's appearing. Some of these historical prophecies are alluded to in Revelation:
e.g. the Leopard (the predominant form of the bst in Rev.) = Syria (Grecian offshoot)
Bear = Medes/Persians
Lion = historical Babylon
The seven past persecuting 'kings' (heads of the beast)
Five are fallen….
1st = Egypt
2nd = Assyria
3rd = Babylon
4th = Medes/Persians
5th = Greece(specifically Syria)
One is……….
6th = Rome (which is manifest in John's time and end times )
also 'the beast who was and is not' relative to John's time is a figure called Antiochus Epiphanes IV – a striking foreshadow of the final beast
(so he existed previously but was dead before the time of John) but the spirit behind him will become the 8th and final persecuting 'king'.
One is to come and must appear a SHORT TIME (Hitlers reign span was shorter than all before it)….
The 7th persecuting 'king' was Adolph Hitler.
8th = final antichrist who is 'of the 7′ i.e.a persecutor with characteristics of ALL 7 and specifically a much worse repeat of the 5th king
The leopard (swift and stealthy) beast with a lions mouth (proud boasts and devours) and bear's feet (crushes underfoot completely) is predominantly from the 5th king (Antiochus)
The beasts animal characteristics indicate the nature with which it will:- swiftly and with stealth devour all before it and trample any that escape even that (namely God's people).
These are the sorts of things to look out for…..I can't detail everything I've come to understand….the best thing is to take the above principles and get the revelation for yourself.
I wrote about this in my book, you may download it here: http://thebeltoftruth.org/books/
Kev, this is what the Lord gave me…you can believe it or not. Revelations4:4 And round about the throne were 24 seats and upon those seats I saw 24 elders sitting clothed in white rainment and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of an archangel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. So who are the 24 elders and why do they have white robes and crowns already if we all are given our bodies at the same time? Our loved ones in Christ do not have their bodies yet they are spiritual bodies. We are all given our new bodies and our white robes at the same time! This is scriptural proof because the elders can't be there before anyone else! Also 1 Corinthians 15:51 is the parable of the 10 virgins…5 were ready and 5 were not!!!! Keep your eyes focused on the Lord and study his word daily! God Bless!
Terri, Having white raiment is no proof of having a body. Look at Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?' 11 Then each of them was given a WHITE ROBE, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[c] were killed just as they had been.
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
The 5th seal represents a point in time after the man of sin is revealed (abomination of desolation) – who then rampages against God's people (Israel followed by 'the saints') – these are the souls of 'saints' here – but before the 'sign' of the Son of Man (Sun & Moon blocked out) signifying the imminence of God's judgments. There is no indication that these SOULS are suddenly given a body prior to getting their WHITE ROBES.
I challenge anyone who reads this post to provide DEFINITIVE SCRIPTURAL PROOF for anything other than a post tribulation rapture.
I have struggled with this "Rapture" IE biblical the Catching Up issue for a long time having waffled back and forth on both sides. However, scripture says "at the LAST Trump! At the Last Trump the Elect will be gathered from the Four Winds. What is so difficult about this scripture that Pre Trib believers don't understand? These two words are so clear! It is a simultaneous catching up and then Christ coming back with His saints where he will return back to the Mount Of Olives and then Armageddon begins. He comes in the clouds, catches up, then returns in the same event. His time is not our time. If there was a pretrib "rapture" then don't you think the rest who are left would not know that it happened? Abandoned cars, planes, etc etc. Don't you think people would fall to their knees then? That would cause complete and utter chaos all over the world and I don't think man could even survive if it weren't for God allowing it. Believers In Christ will have to suffer the Tribulation. Yes and scripture also says "unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved." Seven years is a long time for chaos to ensue. How about the Tribulation Saints? Who are they? Are they the non-elect??? Or are they those left behind who after not "disappearing" come to Christ because they missed the first chance?
Daniels 70th week scripture controversy in chap 9 is also causing great separations in people. WoW! But it is also written that it was not for Daniel to know as God instructed him to shut the book up and seal it "Till The End! "Knowledge will increase and people will be running to and fro." I don't think we were suppose to know up to the time of the end and the time is approaching. The time is now. I believe we will soon discover what all these hard sayings really mean.
Also, John 3:13. And "no man" has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven. (So Enoch and Elisha were not taken into heaven but translated (taken to another place). Even Philip after converting the Ethiopian Eunich was taken away) They went to a heaven but not "The Heaven." There are three. 2 Corinth 12 :2
Remember………………………..Last Trump!
Blessed Hope: You are right. Enoch and Elisha did not "ascend" into heaven. Only Jesus did. He is God, so therefore, He ascended on His own power. But, however, they were "assumed"/taken into heaven by God. Elijah in a "firey chariot." And you are right. At the last trump, we will be raptured/raised/resurrected. Blessings…
The church which are all believers will be removed with Holy Spirit BEFORE the Tribulation begins! The Tribulation is meant for unbelivers and to bring the Jews to know who the Messiah is. The Holy Spirit dewells in all believers so when he is removed prior to the Tribulation, everyone who is saved goes with him. Don't be fooled by any other teaching. God has not appointed his church to his wrath!
Amen Terri!! I have a blessed hope – don't you!!??
But what if you later found out your hope was in fact a false one….where would that leave you ?
Just as Noah and his family were "SAVED" from the wrath of God on the whole earth in the flood, The church/bride "IS SAVED" (by His blood) from the wrath on the whole world during the 7 year Tribulation. WE who are in Christ will be caught up and be safe with Him.
Isaiah 26:19- Your dead will live; their corpses will rise. Who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. Come my people, enter into the rooms and close your doors behind you; HIDE FOR A WHILE until indignation runs its course. For behold the Lord is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; and the earth will reveal her bloodshed and will no longer cover her slain.
Psalm 32:7- You are my HIDING PLACE; You preserve me from trouble; You surround me with songs of deliverance.
Psalm 31:20- You HIDE them in a SECRET HIDING PLACE of your presence from the conspiracies of man, you keep them SECRETLY in a shelter from the strife of tongues!
Psalm 27:5&6 – For in the day of trouble, He will CONCEAL ME in His tabernacle, In the secret place of his tent He will HIDE ME, He will lift me UP on a rock and now my head will be lifted UP above my enemies around me and I will offer in His tent sacrifices with shouts of joy.
Nahum1:7- The Lord is good! A stronghold in the day of trouble, and He knows those who take refuge in Him.
Psalm 25:13 The SECRET of the Lord is for those who fear Him.
Even in John 8:59 Jesus hid himself when He needed to.
If you are saved you are not appointed unto wrath, He is our refuge and He will deliver us from the wrath coming upon the earth. The Tribulation is the time of trouble and it does'nt make sense for Christ to leave His bride on the earth at this time. His bride is in heaven at marriage supper of the Lamb during the entire 7 years of the Tribulation. That is what the marriage supper is all about!! We are rejoicing as His adorned bride dressed in fine linen bright and clean for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Rev 19:8&9.
Then in vs 14, the ARMIES in heaven followed Him on white horses as He strikes the Nations.
Christ defeats the beast and armies of the earth in vs 17-21 with the ARMIES of heaven which the SAINTS will already be with HIM !!
IT makes no sense what so ever for Christ to come down from heaven when He defeats Satan and the Nations and raptures His bride UP when He is coming DOWN at this time at the end of the Tribulation!!! *********************
So His SAINTS will already be Him!!! From beginning to the end we are hidden with Christ and kept from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth. Rev 3:10.
God bless each one of you and know that Christ loves you, accept Him today for tomorrow may be too late. Love in Christ to His Saints !!
Study the bible with an open mind and heart and ask for revelation.I too blindly accepted pre-trib all 27 years of my christian life ('just by keeping hearing the phrase: Jesus could come any time'). until about 3 years ago when I took the trouble to read and study what it really had to say on the subject instead of just relying on being spoon fed. It was very hard to swallow at the time (esp. seeing how widely satan had managed to successfully deceive much of the evangelical church and realising his intent behind it shocked me more – to soften us up !) but better to realise now than when it's too late.
We're never promised deliverance from Satan's wrath only God's. God's absolute indignation is the 7th bowl and we will indeed be raptured prior to then. A number of the preceding bowls have the comment 'and they repented not….' which seems to indicate God is still after souls I believe all God's people (not just the 144,000 preserved remnant of Jews) are protected via a 'seal' (which biblically maps to the Holy Spirit) on this basis it seems unbelievers are the target of the trumpet and bowl judgments. The 7th Bowl I believe is God's outright indignation expressed and the opportunity of repentance seems to have completely passed as people have proven themselves completely hardened. I believe the 7th bowl marks the end of the 'age of grace' as some call it.
Can you explain these verses? This does not happen until we are 3 1/2 years into the tribulation.
2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
What do you think of this? Do you think "son of perdition" will sit and then say to the sons of light, "live and let live"? As you can see in the quote it say, "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" what this means is that God's judgement day – the day God says "enough is enough, you cannot continue to kill my people," will not come until the evil one and his character is revealed to the world. Mind you, in revelation we have it that a lot of us will be killed and in Daniel we equally have it that the evil one will fight against the saint of Jesus and win them, but in the process of the battle Jesus will come for their help.
My dear, the killing currently going on around the world is not to compare with that killing. I think you should read my book, you can get it from here: http://thebeltoftruth.org/books/
Scratch that just looked again….it's what I said at first 'Peace, Peace then comes sudden destruction….' in 1 Thess 5 is referring to the Day of the Lord not 'the day of the man of sin'
Apologies …another interpretation of 'peace, peace and then comes sudden destruction…' could be the end of the 3.5 years of peace for Israel followed by their mass slaughter after the 'abomination of desolation'..not looked into that so much…
….so the whole of the 7 years is the seventieth week as far as Israel is concerned as their 3RD temple is rebuilt during the first half (the decree going out to rebuild the 2ND temple was a marker in the seventy weeks prophecy in Daniel). So the first 3.5 years is significant to Israel but is not strictly a time of 'tribulation'.
Dean: here's what I've picked up. Terms easily get confused. The 'tribulation' (which biblically is strictly and specifically the targeted persecution / killing of God's people) specifically refers the time after the abomination of desolation when the man of sin 'is revealed' and then goes on a mission to wipe out all of God's people but before the judgments begin (forewarned by the 6th seal sign). It seems God's people are protected from the judgments and that part of the purpose is to slow down or bring to a standstill the man of sins massacring of God's people and that the target of the judgments is unbelievers(e.g. the bodily rapture could not take place if all God's people were killed – so would result in a failed prophecy so discrediting God).
It seems the first 3.5 years the antichrist is an unassuming individual ('little horn') who after the signing of a treaty resulting in peace in Israel causes him to be hailed by them as the Messiah (hence anti-christ i.e. 'another-messiah'). In order for him to sit in God's temple then that 3rd temple needs to be built (likely during the first 3.5 years as it has to be built during a period of peace) – that first 3.5 years will be a time where he builds up his power base (through deceit, 'intrigue' and smoothness) likely with the help of a growingly apostate church (with the Roman Catholic Church – Mystery Babylon – being no small part of that – the woman riding the beast) – one explanation as to why use of the word church is replaced by use of 'saints'. So the 1st 3.5 years as I see it a time of relative peace for Israel i.e. not of tribulation/persecution.
I believe the time when God's people are being killed will appear to be a time of peace for the rest of the world as the world is purged of troublesome 'Christians Jews' (the only threats to that 'peace'). But they say 'peace, peace and then sudden destruction comes(6th seal)…'
Ive been having more visions about rapture. Even though the bible does not state the time or the hour, it does tell us the season. Based on the events, trumpet sounds being heard and reported around the worls and the rfid chip already here, I strongly believe we won't pass 2017..Has anyone been feeling the same?
Georgina the rapture can't possibly happen for at least another 7 years. Please see my recent posts which are very scripture focussed. It's always wiser to rely on the Bible than visions (visions reported to have been given to a scottish girl (Margaret McDonald) in 1815 helped consolidate the erroneous pre-trib rapure view. If you consider the miniscule number and supremely spiritual of people in the bible who were raptured:Jesus, Enoch & Elijah who are we to think we can share a similar destiny? Only a very select faith filled and patient group will have that experience. The rapture doctrine is way overemphasised – it is a part of the endtimes but people only make it a big deal because they think it's a 'get out clause' from the end time period. Consider the countless Christians being persecuted / killed in e.g.Middle eastern countries currently – who are we in the west to consider ourselves exempt ? Anyway your bible is far and away your best reference – don't necessarily even rely on others opinions (even well established individuals) and certainly don't rely on visions !
Jesus will have His bride PURE and we are far from that now – tribulations get us there.
1 Tim 4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the LATTER TIMES some shall DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits and DOCTRINES OF DEVILS,
Free insight (accept it if you will):
Pre-trib rapture & once saved always saved are two of satan's chief doctrines for snaring believers in the end times……..
Tribulations polarise. Jesus wants us off the fence hot or cold (not lukewarm). Purity of heart / devotion (and …whether you like it or not purity of life and character – sanctified)….why would Jesus talk about "staying awake and keeping our clothes" if there's no way we could fall asleep or become unclothed ? Once saved always saved is yet another false doctrine – it's conditional…
Tribulations don't purify anyone, it's Gods word that washes us..move your pulpit from mt Sinai…
btw the image conjured by your comment makes me giggle…:)
Have you never read in James that faith without works is dead faith ? James asks the question "can the faith of a person without works SAVE the person ?" He asks the question in a Greek construct which anticipates a negative response…..
See here for the proof:-
Yes we are already made pure, you are saying it's by works? You have it all wrong we are already made perfect, seriously please stop mixing the law faith you are contaminating it..we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
Kevin, we (Believers) ARE PURE WHEN WE ARE BORN-AGAIN!! REDEEMED BY HIS BLOOD! SAVED ! P E R I O D !!!!!!!! NO AMOUNT OF WRATH CANNOT MAKE US ANY MORE PURE!
Do you really imagine God is content with us having 'positional' purity while living in sin(Romans 8:1 is often cut short…'There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus' PERIOD….however that's not how the verse reads…it actually continues on…………..'for those who live according to the Spirit and to not according to the flesh….for if you live according to the flesh you will die (everyone dies physically so it must be referring to spiritual death)….'Remember the serpent's lie in Eden 'YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE')……..this is the 'cheap grace' doctrine and is false…..he wants us to LIVE OUT purity as well as being 'positionally' pure (justified)….trials develop character so are necessary for us becoming more pure in character…..It even says in Hebrews that Jesus had to be made 'perfect through sufferings' (yet he was already perfect (??)
In this present time individuals – yes- are persecuted just as the disciples (like Paul) of Jesus' day was persecuted and now we have in the last days more persecutions of Christians around the world. But do not get that confused with the judgement upon the whole world ( as a whole for those who reject Him)
Persecution from unbelievers differs from that judgement from God.
God destroyed the earth with the flood (because of the wickedness upon the earth and for rejecting Noah's message) and saved Noah, like wise Christ has "saved us" already by His blood he shed on the cross and therefore we are made righteous in Him! And NOTHING can change that!! Jesus is our present day ARK !! Your sins are forgiven and your are made bright and clean. We DO NOT have to go through more Tribulation to somehow be made pure or better. We already ARE through His blood when we are born again!!! God's word is very clear about this. The righteous will inherit eternal life, and it was accomplished by His sacrifice on the cross. So once you have accepted Him to be your personal Savior and Lord, that's it, You are a child of God forever! Satan will try to deceive us and tell us we are not worthy and we deserve punishment . But punishment only comes for those who reject Him. God bless!
What do you think this means,"In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." (John 16:33 NKJV)
See, I have a clear message from the Holy Spirit to the church of today. We need to understand His plans and why Christ came for us. The church is sleeping today. Get my book at: http://www.thebeltoftruth.org/book and also read some of my post especially on righteousness. God bless you!
James Smith: Regarding your recent post cf how the Holy Spirit can be removed from the earth while believers are still on earth. It doesn't make sense to believe the Holy Spirit will be removed unless you believe the Church will be removed also (eg pre-trib rapture – which is doctrinal error see my recent posts – that's why you won't find a scripture for it !). The Holy Spirit isn't the restrainer (and it's not the Church – 2 Thess 2:7 – 7 refers to the restrainer 'He' but the Church is 'She' – 'For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till HE is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth ). You'll see from both Daniel 12 ('At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will 'arise' (actually translated means 'stands aside'). There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.') and Rev 12 ('Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back') that it is in fact the Archangel Michael who is the restrainer and protector of Israel.
It's not the church being taken out of the way that paves the way for the lawless one it's the church falling away (apostasy) which causes God's protection to lift – angelic protection is correlated to obedience – and Michael releases the devil to earth to show the lawless ones true colours (ie to be revealed) by personally possessing him .
Many things have to take place before the second coming of jesus. When the great tribulation starts, the church will be on the earth still. we will be preaching, running scared, prisoned, being killed, rejoicing and suffering be ready.
Let the bible Interpret its self.
Please with respect to my earlier comment on January 10, 1 Cor 15:6 says that Jesus appeared to more than 500 persons at once, and not "albeit not in one large crowd" as I erroneously stated there. However, the truth remains that all of those persons were believers, that is, those who had believed in Him even before His death. Unbelievers never saw the risen Christ.
I know you get many questions. However, I have struggled with an issue for so long. I really need your insight. My Bible and my gut tells me that the Church WILL suffer the Tribulation period. However, Gods word indicates that God will remove his Holy Spirit from the Earth at that time. In that the Holy Spirit resides within us, how can such be removed? Would God remove his Holy Spirit from within each of us? If so, would that be taking away his Gift from some persons having done no wrong? If not, can't Spirit filled person can simply rebuke the spirit of the Devil on the Earth at that time. I am trying to understand what happens to the presence of the Holy Spirit that resides within our hearts at the point in which God removes it from the Earth…and support such conclusions with Scripture. Will you please help?
Hi James,
That is a very good question and one that seems to confuse many these days. The only place I can think of where someone could get the idea that the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth is 2 Thessalonians 2. Some interpret the "one who now holds him (the man of lawlessness) back" as being the Holy Spirit. You might consider that Paul, who wrote just under half of the new testament letters never referred to the Holy Spirit in this way. Do you think Paul who wrote of the Holy Spirit often would omit that detail if he believed "the one" was the Holy Spirit?
I pray you are saved dear brother, if you are saved nothing can ever ever separate you from the love of Christ. We are called home to heaven during this terrible time of judgement on the whole world. Not His Saints. Ask God to show you His truth and He will.
The Holy Spirit leaves when we do. Your question; "If not, can't Spirit filled person can simply rebuke the spirit of the Devil on the Earth at that time?" Shows that you are really thinking hard. Well I am happy to tell you that the saints being killed means nothing but the souls that we will win to Christ matters – we should also let them know that they will face the same…the first Apostles were killed and they all knew it will happen but it did not make any meaning to them. There is true joy in us when we know the purpose of God. Christians don't die, that is what Satan has not being able to comprehend. For Christ has said: "In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." (John 16:33 NKJV)
If you read in Daniel you will discover that the evil one will wage war against the people of Jesus Christ and he will win them and Jesus Christ will then come in to help them. Why, because at this last hour a lot of lies have blinded the eyes of Christians, we don't know the truth and the very little who do are being attacked by the others who are already deluded by all the lies being preached in churches today. So don't expect to find many Christians today – the little number of Christians gives room to Satan at the end time.
My conclusion is that we should make sure we understand God's plan from the beginning to the end.
James – please see my post above in answer to your question. The paradox is solved because the Archangel Michael is the restrainer and NOT the Holy Spirit and certainly not the church (though I do consider it likely that the 'true' churches fallen away state has some bearing on Michael ceasing to restrain the man of sin from being shown in his true light – NB Rev 12 indicates Michael throwing the devil out of heaven and Rev 13 which follows is all about the beasts rise – whilst Rev isn't all in chronological sequence it is apparent that Rev 12 & 13 are).
A few more things to add:-
1) Why isn't the church mentioned much after the first few chapters of revelation ? Ans: because the 'true church' won't exist in the form we understand it today – it will be a much more scattered/disparate/underground affair and so only makes sense to refer to 'saints'. Omission in mention doesn't mean non-existence(a classic example of eisegesis – reading 'into' something).
2) How can believers possibly be alive upto the 5th bowl judgment to be raptured ? Ans: The 144,000 jews are especially sealed for protection from the trumpet/bowl judgments because they weren't sealed previously. They started out unbelieving and have to get to the point where they finally admit 'blessed is He (the crucified) who comes in the name of the Lord' – God promised a remnant in natural Israel. It is simply omitted from mention that believers (saints) are still around and DON'T need to be especially sealed because they ALREADY HAVE THE SEAL OF GOD – The Holy Spirit so they will already be protected from the trumpet/bowl judgments.
3) The following two additional 'doctrines of demons' will predispose you to deception also in connection with rapture timing
a) Replacement Theology / Dispensationalism – that saints have either completely replaced the jews or that God switches his attention variously between the jews and the saints. The fact is He is looking for 'one new man out of the two' – clear from the epistles.
b) Once save always saved/cheap grace / eternal security – the belief that no matter what you do it'll all be ok in the end. If you approach Revelation and much of the NT with an open mind about this you'll see it is most certainly possible to lose salvation. If you take the mark of the beast you WILL lose salvation – make no mistake about it. Everyone will be forced off the fence during that last 3.5 years !!!!
Some scriptures will always remain hard to get you head around until you have the correct perspective with regard to these 3 doctrines. But when you do an awful lot will fall into place (like it did with me).
I applaud you dept of understanding into the purpose of God. Well done!
The pre-tribulation (and all non post-tribulation views) rapture is /are latter day (note the last 200 years still classifies as latter days) 'doctrine of demons' contrived for the express purpose of sedating the Christian masses so that they sleepwalk into the end times period completely unprepared and think they have 'missed the boat' or God has let them down and so turn away from Him completely overwhelmed by the last days events. The pre-trib rapturists rely on 1) People's desire to hear comforting truths (have their ears tickled) 2) Much scriptural juggling and eisegesis 3) The majority holding the view. Look into the Bible yourself rather than relying on the words of some highly popular preacher – wonder why they're so popular ? I would rather see people warned and readied than their ears be tickled and sleepwalk unprepared. Paul said in Thessalonians that there will be no 'gathering' (rapture) until AFTER 1) There is a falling away 2) The 'man of sin' is revealed. It doesn't take a pre-trib rapture to give the 'man of sin' a chance to be revealed it just takes a fallen away Church (and don't we see many unbiblical things being embraced in the Church in our day ) – when His people leave the truth of His Word protection is removed !! Jesus also had something to say about the chronology of this rapture in Matt 24 (and note both included the words 'do not be deceived'). He said(roughly) Immediately AFTER the tribulation……..etc…etc….'He will gather His elect..' . AFTER , THEN etc are words denoting the order of events – I would say that's 'out of the mouth of two or three witnesses' shall a thing be established – and reliable ones at that (though Jesus is enough).
Often confusion arises becomes terms become confused. The 'restrainer' isn't the Holy Spirit it's the Archangel Michael who 'in the midst of the seven years' releases the devil to earth due to the prevalence of lawlessness (apostasy) and the 'man of sin' becomes the devil incarnate (REV 12 – 13).
Also tribulation (persecution) is Satan's wrath(Jesus also said 'In the world you shall have tribulation(persecution) but be of good cheer I have overcome the world), wrath is Gods wrath – saints who remain true won't taste of the latter and will eventually be 'gathered' in the better of the two great harvest gatherings prior to Armageddon' – for protection from the seventh bowl judgment …Carefully note the 'behold I come as a thief' in Revelation inserted between the 6th and 7th bowl (all 7 bowls belong to the 7th / last trumpet) – blink and you'll miss it.
In 1 Corinthians 15:52 that it is at the 'LAST (7th) trumpet' that the dead are raised. Note also that the dead will be resurrected (gathered) AT THE LAST DAY (John 11:24) BEFORE the living believers (in Thessalonians) – NOT THE FIRST DAY of the final 7 year end time period of the current age.
Some argue that the Last trumpet Paul spoke about is something completely different from the 7th trumpet John spoke about because Paul was not around when John got the revelation – WHAT !! Isn't the same Holy Spirit inspiring both writings – these aren't the mere imaginings of men.
Some argue there are more than 2 'comings' of Christ despite no mentions of such – this is how it will pan out…..He will come a 2nd time, gather His saints (who will be forever with Him – DOESN'T MEAN HE HEADS BACK TO HEAVEN AT THAT POINT with them just means what it says). His gathered saints will then be His army who CONTINUE THE DESCENT TO EARTH WITH HIM to fight Gods enemies at Armaggedon.
Any way ..I realise I have limited space and you have limited time to read all this and apologies it's not very organised but please take time to read the scriptures I mentioned yourselves and hopefully see the truth before it's too late !! There's so much more to say about this……………………………
What we seems to be missing today is the fact that the world cannot have tribulation. It can only happen with the Church. We should not be deceived, tribulation is a declaration of war against the Church and that declaration will come about because of the work of the very few who understands the plan of God and that of satan for the end time.
Those with understanding will do wonders and people of the evil one will be won to Christ in the numbers, this will grief satan so much that the declaration of war will be made on the saints. Tribulation is not for the people of the world, it is for the Church of Jesus Christ; the people of satan cannot face tribulation from him – isn't that clear to us? Why do we like to wish all that away by our "Doctrine of Escape"
James 1:2-4
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. (NIV). Today we don't believe in facing trials. The truth is, if you think you are a Christian please this is the time to rethink because God is raising an army of believers who will cause many trouble for you, this ones are willing and ready to die for the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Their work will move nations and shake the plan of satan already in rain all around today's Church – his plan is to deceive many Christians and put them in their comfort zone. The work of the army will win many of satan's own people and that will aggravate the tribulation. Stop sleeping Church!
I most say that you have good understanding. I need a favour of you, kindly look into my book and get back at me, through comment, at the same site: http://www.thebeltoftruth.org/book
This is your interpretation. Btw, you come across as a no-it-all. Try not to be so long winded too.
I disagree. I find Kev's comments quite thought provoking. Thank you Kev. Blessings…
Rapture timing is not unknowable (Jesus Paul & John made the timing crystal clear if we choose to see past our instinct of self preservation) – satan has clouded the issue (for very good reason) by adding 3 other viewpoints. It is VERY significant what you believe about it as it affects the level of preparedness. Ask God for revelation and see it in the bible for yourself. I only know as much as I do on the subject because I took the time and trouble to research it myself and was open to God on the matter and wanted the truth.
pun intended
My nephew asked me a question today. He wanted to know if people rejected Jesus now ,would they be able to make it in after the second coming/Tribulation? I can't find scripture that they can make it in except for maybe Rev. 20:4-5. Can you help me Brother Irvin?
Susan: With regard to your reference to Rev 20:4-5 I think the answer is simply:-
1) EVERYONE is going through the end times regardless (unless they die before it obviously!)
– NO pre-trib 'outta here'.
2) Faith in Jesus and His blood is and always will be a condition of salvation right up to the end (i.e. refusing the mark is not sufficient in itself for salvation though admirable and impressive for an unbeliever to do). (NB There's going to be an unprecedented level of power evangelism and gospel spread through ordinary believers that goes hand in hand with the unprecedented persecution) !
3) Remaining faithful and patient TO THE VERY END of the tribulation and keeping our lamps full and walking fully in holiness and truth regardless of the temptations, difficulties and deceptions around.
4) Unbelievers AND Believers must NOT accept the mark of the beast or that seals their fate forever (no excuses accepted) – ie lake of fire. – (that'll upset some peoples 'eternal security' theology – God will never take our free will away though Satan wants to).
If 2 – 4 are met you 'make it in' but as I said before the longer you leave it the harder it'll get to make the choice.
Hope that answers your nephew's question.
It seems you're nephew is coming from a standpoint of pre-tribulation rapture and it seems you're question is – 'would that rapture be the last chance at being saved ?'. Firstly the pre-tribulation rapture is a false position (see all my recent posts not to mention Brother Irwin's text he is not my pastor but is scripturally spot on).Regardless of your position on the rapture if you look through the 'bowl' judgments (which lead right upto Armageddon, Christ's return and what I believe is the rapture) in Rev 16 the 4th and 5th bowl include the comment: 'and they repented not…'. Why would it say that unless they were being given the opportunity for repentance? Now after such horrific judgments if there's no room for repentance then peoples hearts must have become very hard. If your nephew is wondering if he can put off accepting Jesus until after the tribulation my answer would be not to put it off because it'll be much harder to accept if he leaves it 'til then !
Lots of good points but let me share why I believe in a Pre-Trib view. First, It is, rarely, been preached because of controversies like this. (Matt 24:29-31) Yes, it does talk about the coming of the Lord–Yes, it does talk about after the tribulation but it misses the point. Let's not confuse the coming of the Lord to meet us in the air with his coming in the earth. (I Thess 4:17) These are two separate and different scenarios.
A couple of points to see is— First,Jesus spoke very little about the rapture that is why the apostle Paul defines it as a mystery. (I Cor 15:51) He elaborates more about it in his letters. Second, when you carefully study Matt 24:40-51, it speaks of another rapture. The rapture of the wicked who will give an account at the Great White throne judgement. Third,Matt 24:20 speaks of the sabbath day, which clearly mentions the Jews. If you carefully study your bible, it does not mention the word church in the tribulation. Anyway, I will not split hairs over this. The important thing is that we are, all, looking for his coming and that is all that matters. In the meantime, let's all be busy doing his work—Halleluya!
That you Irwin for your commentary on the "end times". I have been studying many Bible interpreters over the years and found them interesting but lacking. I am a Christian and as a Christian truth is what I seek. So any source that has a ring of truth I am drawn too. I have found some of that truth in your writings but I'm afraid a lot of it is simply conjecture . I point to a book I found that was published back in 1955 "The Book of Destiny" by Rev. Herman Bernard Kramer. I think it may give you insight from a different perspective. Veritas
I thank God for Pastor Irvin Baxter and for his ministry (I respect its longevity) and the anointing of the Holy Spirit upon him. Before I join this conversation, let me first emphasize that all who are true believers in Jesus are brethren, regardless of their ages, sexes, races, preferences, convictions or denominations. Therefore, although we don't agree on a post-tribulation rapture, we remain brothers in Christ, and I won't be surprised if my mansion is located next to his.
Now here are my thoughts: when Jesus rose from the dead, He appeared only to those who believed in Him before He died. He did not appear to Pilate or Herod or his accusers, nor did He make any post-resurrection public appearance. He was seen of over 500 believers in all, albeit not in one large crowd. At the ascension at the mount of Olives, Jesus didn't make His ascension a public spectacle; it was the same "believers only" who saw Him taken up. Other inhabitants of Jerusalem could not have looked up on that day to see a man in the skies or clouds. That blessed sight was for only believers. It was still only the believers who saw the two men (angels) in white, who said unto them that this same Jesus they saw caught up would in like manner return to Olives at the second coming.
Now, Enoch was raptured, and probably no one saw him go. Elijah was carried up into Heaven and it was not a sight for public viewing. Even godly Elisha had to be spiritually alert and attentive so as not to miss Elijah's rapture.
I have a lot to say from Scripture as to the fact that a pre-trib rapture is what the Bible teaches. Just like lightening, all eyes shall see Jesus at the second coming (armageddon), when He returns to set foot physically on Olives, but only the believing eyes of those whose mortal bodies will be quickened by the Spirit will be able to both see and meet Him in the air when He comes without touching down physically on earth in a pre-trib rapture. I will not be here to face the antichrist, 'cos I'll be gone upstairs for at least the marriage supper of the Lamb. Meet u there. Shalom!
Joann you are only right about one part of the judgment seat of Christ. Only the unbelievers are judged. We Christians do not stand in judgement because we have been made clean by the blood of Christ. We stand before the Lord for our rewards. Since every Christian is on a different level of where they are in their relationship with Christ…we will receive our just rewards. The bible speaks of hay and stubble being burned before us of what we could of had as a reward and what we get. It says we cry and then he wipes our tears and know that we got what we deserved. Watch this year because we are already under attack in this country. I believe Martial Law will be declared this year and they will start rounding up the people like gun supporters…anti-government…Out spoken Christians …veterans etc. and they will be either killed or taken to a FEMA Camp. As for me and my family we are very outspoken Christians, supporters of our Constitution and we are not afraid to die for the Lord if called upon. The government will probably use a medical martial law or something else to start rounding up the people but it will happen! Get informed of what is really going on in this country. The United States was the only country standing in the way of the One World Order. Start googling FEMA Camps..mail box tags for roundups …executive orders and the UN training of foreign soldiers on our land! Everyone God Bless and see you in Heaven!!!
Terri: Amen! As far as what's going on with our government and in the world, I have been warning folks for yrs. I even sent Irvin a list of where the FEMA camps are. Like you, I'm a very outspoken Christian, and an adamant supporter of our Constitution. So you and I are on the ball and pretty much agree with each other regarding your comments above. Blessisngs…
The rapture will happen as in the day of Noa(Noah), just as the rain started to fall, God sealed shut the door of the ark, in the end times,just as in Noah's time, God will rapture the chosen to himself, and those left get hit with the poo poo that hits the fan.
My head is spinning reading all the posts on here regarding the timing of the rapture. Debate is good, but that doesn't change the truth or His timing. What's most important is that Jesus IS coming back for those of us who are born again. In his book "What You Should Know About the Rapture", Dr. Charles Ryrie compares these two theories concerning the Rapture. But he also asks a very important question for anyone who is about to study the end times. He asks, "Does it really make any difference when the Lord will come? Is it not His coming that is important? If His coming should be pretribulational, then we will praise Him for the fact that we missed that terrible time. If it is posttribulational, then we will gladly suffer for His sake. Either way, we still have the blessed hope of His coming." Just my $.02.
…it IS important….if you expect Christ first you won't recognise A/C when he in fact comes first …he won't be easy to spot at first 'til its too late by which point there's no time to prepare…
Thanks Stacey for reminding us of what's most important. As we keep debating on this hopefully with the intention of rightly dividing the word of truth, we must not lose sight of the fact that staying born again ourselves and being used to preach the gospel to our world until we die or Jesus returns is what really counts, irrespective of what we believe about the timing of the rapture. Am glad that at least, most of us agree there's going to be a rapture not very long from now.
Revelations 6:16-17 the last words in verse 16 is from the wrath of the Lamb! The lamb is Jesus Christ. Then verse 17 says For the great day of his wrath has come! The wrath of God is poured out onto the unbelieving sinners of the world. Satan has them already under his control. Revelations 14:19 the last words of that verse is the great winepress of the wrath of God! God Bless!
AMEN Terri!!!! You are so right on!! God bless you and thank your for listening to the Holly Spirit and sharing the truth about the rapture!!
JoAnn the comforter has to be removed before the 7 year tribulation begins! He is God and therefore can not be here during his own wrath which is the tribulation! He is in every believer and so if he is removed so are we. The 7 year tribulation was not meant for the church which is us. The mystery the bible speaks of both old and new testament is the rapture! The second coming is at the end of the tribulation and is a completely separate event. It says he is coming back with his saints. If we were just raptured…then how can we come back with him! All signs are fulfilled according to scripture. The RFID chip is already here. The bible also says a great lie will be sent and it says if we were here, we would believe it too! God is turning people over to their lusts! Why do you think everything is like it is right now. Thugs are being cheered for for breaking the law and police are being victimized! Read your bibles every day because the time of the gentiles is almost at a close!
For all who care to know, Your computer system and electronic gadgets will fail to work at that time. Why?
The tribulation will start; declaration of war on Christians, and then Jesus Christ will be angry, He will call His Saints, the earth and the heavens will be be shaken, the sun will not shine, there will be earthquake unprecedented, water level will rise, your electric power will fail, you will not be able to hear or watch the news – imagine that!
I mean it is going to be a terrible time for the people that will remain. Please read the sequence of my listing of the event of that time very carefully and you will see that it solves the problem of pre/pro tribulation. I can tell you that this is how it will happen.
The given of the mark was to be able to control food ration because the events I have listed above will cause famine at that time. Please forget about all the wonderful things, like computer, being enjoyed today, they won't function at that time. If they don't no chip can be read, satan is distracting people today with speculations. Get ready for Jesus Christ by going all out to win souls and doing good works for Him. It is well! http://www.thebeltoftruth.org
According to scripture the mark of the beast is going to be "ON" you, and not "IN" you. The RFID is a chip. The mark will be more like a tattoo visible for all to see.
Although I agree with you id like to point out that most police officers are just as corrupt as gang members. Who do you think will enforce the mark? Police are trained liars, thieves, subservient to a government master lead by Satan. God bless you and any officers that believe in the lord jesus Christ
Sorry Terri, I don't agree. The Bible teaches that the Lord will come a second time, "at the end of time," to judge all the living and the dead. From your comments, one is lead to believe that Christ is coming 3 times. A 2nd time to "rapture" the Church and a 3rd time, at the end of time, to judge. The Bible teaches that Christ is only coming one more time (a 2nd time), at the end of time. The "tribulation" is Satan's wrath. Jesus' wrath is armageddon on the "unbelievers." He WILL be coming with His saints. The Lord already has many, many, many souls of the saints in heaven. All those souls who have died in Him since the beginning of time, will be coming with Him. We, who are still living at the time, will be "raptured" body AND soul, after Jesus raptures the dead bodies. Jesus doesn't need any help defeating Satan. All He has to do is speak the "word" and in an instant, Satan will be defeated. Thank goodness, believing when the "rapture" will happen is not essential for salvation. I look at it this way. If "pre-tribers" are right, than "post-tribers are going to be pleasantly surprised. If "post-tribers" are right, there is going to be a lot of disappointed people, which could be very dangerous to those who think they will not be here for the reign of the anti-christ. The Catholic Church agrees with Irvin on this one. Jesus will come again, at the end of time. Blessings…
I am inclined to agree with you…ergo "…I tell you these things so that you will not be offended…" However, what do you suspect happens to that part of God – The Holy Spirit – that resides within us at the point in which God removes his Spirit from the Earth?
James Smith: The Holy Spirit is being removed right now. Our religious freedoms are being squelched. If our pulpits and ministers are being silenced, then the Holy Spirit (the revealer) is being taken away. Apostasy is rampant. Right is wrong and wrong is right. Yes, we are "temples of the Holy Spirit" but we are being silenced. The HS will always be with us, but He will no longer be able to be heard. We will be martyred for trying to spread the Gospel and for our "intolerance." I don't know, did that make sense to you? No sarcasm, just really wondering. Blessings…
Suzy: You've said well that God said in Hosea that my people are destroyed through lack of knowledge – thats EXACTLY RIGHT….you'll be so unprepared for A/C coming first on the scene…..which he will
The Holy Spirit is not being removed..no wonder God said in Hosea that my people are destroyed through lack of knowledge..the anti Christ will be revealed when the one restraining him is taken out of the way,(the church) that proves a pre trib rapture, also God is a good Dad, would you push your kid out in harms way to teach them something? Just stupid, ludicrous thinking, not rightly dividing the word of truth..This causes a lot of confusion for baby Christians..listen to Derek Walker oxford church London on this matter, he will explain it and help you see the truth using the word…
my great great aunt, died in 1968. she was born, in 1855 as a slave. I lived for a number of years with her, her neice and nephew and my mother and infant sister. she was a devote christian, waiting for the time of the rapture and jesus return. this has always puzzeled me.
Maybe these verses will help I Thess. 5:9 where he says we are not appointed to his wrath and Rev. 6:17 where his wrath has come. That shows we will not be here because all of the tribulation is his wrath. We the church will be gone before then. Only those that are looking for him will make it.You have to be reborn!
Terri: The "tribulation" is Satan's wrath, not God's. God's wrath is Armegeddon, at which time, we will be "raptured." Blessings…
Are you suggesting that the tribulation saints are appointed to God's wrath? The wrath of God in 1 Thess 5 is contrasted with obtaining salvation through Jesus Christ. This suggests to me that the wrath of God in this context is hell. The antichrist's persecution of Christians is not the wrath of God. And the wrath of God in Rev 6 is not poured out on believers, but rather on unbelievers.
There is no mention of Tribulation Saints any where in the Bible because there will be none…A great read is John Shorey's book "The Window of the Lords Return" 2012-2020 explains Revelations to the tea even puts it in chronological order us….Peace love and light..
What do you suppose this mean: "Rev 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. (NIV)
"who were to be killed as they had been was completed." That will happen as a result of the tribulation. Get my book on it at: http://www.thebeltoftruth.org/book and get back to me.
God bless you!
is the "rapture doctrine really the truth! I personally cant find it anywhere in scripture I do know the word "rapture is not in the bible but derived from the latin vulgate word "raptuse"? still I've not found any scripture definitely assuring me/us that the "rapture doctrine" is truly biblicalI've been given some vague refs I.E. 1st cor:15-45-53 & 1st Thess:4 16-17 etc.
but have not found any real direct reference to this event
pls help with scripture refs other than these
may our awesome Lord&Savior mightily Bless you all
with sincere gratitude:> "gordy"
The rapture has to happen before the 7 year tribulation. The Restrainer( another name for the Holy Spirit) has to be removed in order for the lawless one to come (Satan) so if he has to leave here and he dewells in every believer…he has to take us with him otherwise we would be just like everyone else. When we are raptures the church age is over and the 2 witnesses teach the kingdom. God promised his people we would not go through his wrath because that is assigned to the unbelievers. The tribulation is for 2 purposes….to punish the people for turning away from God and to bring Israel to repentance through the 2 witnesses. There is also a strong lie that is sent so they will believe it and it says if we were there during that time we would believe it too. Our Christian brothers and sisters all over the world are being marytered for the word of God with beheadings and even Crucifixion and have been for years. We were blessed to be living in a country like the United States but that is no more. Pray and read steadfast in the word. Our redemption draws near!!!
Consider this also….The bible states that the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) must be removed before the lawless one (the devil) is revealed. Since the Holy Spirit dewells in every believer.. when he goes so do we. Without the Holy Spirit in us we would be just like the unbelieving world. God promises we will not go through his wrath. We have our Christian brothers and sisters being martyred for the Lord every day in one part of the world or another. You need to be looking for him everyday. The rapture and the second coming of Christ are 2 separate events. The second coming is where the already raptured church will be coming back with the Lord. The martyred christians has been taking place for years in other parts of the world. The witnesses will not be preaching about saving grace anymore because that was only for the church age but instead will be preaching the kingdom and it is only for the jews to bring them to know who the true Messiah is. Also God sends a strong lie that all will believe it and it says that if we were there..we would believe it too. That shows we are already gone.
I just wanted to share that recently the Lord has led me to many studies and comments following on whether the Rapture is pre, mid, or post-Tribulation. After reading all of the Scriptures and teachings, I can honestly say now that where I was once a pre-trib believer (due to the teachings I had sitten under), I am solidly now a post-Tribulation believer. I don't know how those who taught me got so off track but it concerns me for those who still believe the pre-trib route. It is clear now, to me, that Jesus' coming on the clouds is at the end of the Tribulation. I thank God that He has opened my eyes and I pray, and will continue to pray, that He will open the eyes of everyone who needs to know the truth. It certainly gives us an advantage to being prepared knowing that endurance and perseverance should be the words of prayer on our lips from now until then for all believers. Thank you to the Holy Spirit for making this teaching clear to me now and for giving me a clearer understanding of what we need to be "prepared" and "ready" for: spiritually, mentally, physically and emotionally. The greater the amount of believers who know the truth of this, I believe, the greater the amount of souls we will be ready and able to reach and lead to Christ. Blessings, all!
I read that and am thanking the LORD that one more person has found the truth that has set them free. You are so very right. The pre-trib rapture is a false teaching. Nobody is going anywhere until after the 7th trumpet sounds. Scripture does not lie. JESUS said plainly that we may all suffer persecution. He told us to be watching and waiting and to know the truth and not be deceived. All of those who believe the pre-trib false doctrine are deceived. They are under the false delusion that JESUS will take them all out of here before the mark of the beast and the antichrist and false prophet come, but that's NOT going to happen. They will find out and be very upset, disappointed and fearful. They won't be prepared as you say spiritually, mentally, physically or emotionally and it will be a huge falling away of the church at that time. People will find out they were deceived by their pastors and priest etc. and they won't know what to do, but by then it will be too late for them.
SO, JESUS is coming at the 7th trumpet and I'm in agreement with you, the more that know the TRUTH, the more will be ready. I pray that the LORD will help people to discover it before its too late. JESUS "never" said he was taking any of them out of the world beforehand. He even prayed to GOD the FATHER, to protect them, but not remove them. People need to study the word and stop listening to this false message of the feel good gospel.
Luke 21:36 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Sky ….if you are trying to use this "escape all things" scripture as an argument for pre-trib you are misled.
'Escape' in this context means more in the sense of 'escaping though the flames' rather than 'avoiding them altogether'….
wandakate: Amen! It will be a "post-trib" event. Blessings…
Very good Lynn,
You are on the right track. Now, take a look at the document on this site titled "Simultaneous Harvests". Then look at these specific Bible verses: Revelation 14:14-16 & 17-20. Matthew 25:31-46. Matthew 13:24-30 & 36-43. John 5:28-29. Daniel 12:1-2. Revelation 1:7. All of these verses appear to be describing the moment of the time of the return of Christ. Keep this in mind while reading all of these verses: They all talk of the judgement and harvest. Now, If (as I understand it) the judgements and harvest described in these verses occur at His return, than there should be no flesh alive beyond that point. Only spirits. Those spirits who at that point receive their new incorrupt body (come alive) and enter the kingdom of heaven (1 Corinthians 15:50 no flesh or blood may enter the kingdom of heaven). the rest of the dead, in a spirit form with no body, are cast to hades to remain until the conclusion of the 1000 years. At that point they are released from the hold of death, and the place of hades, to have the final judgement, then they (the rest of the dead) come alive (Revelation 20:13 & 5)
The book of Revelation is not in exact chronological order. Everything is revealed just as throughout the bible, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. It takes the Spirit of God to put it in all in order as he sees fit to give it. Seems to me that the rapture takes place at the same moment the two witnesses are taken up. Christians have to go through tribulation or persecution as the world is given the power to do so from God. We're spared from the wrath of God not the wrath of the world as it persecutes believers.
Will ..Revelation IS chronological it's just that every now and again it takes the liberty of 'zooming in' to look in detail at certain key events. That can make it difficult to see the chronological order of it.
Rev 6 -10 is a chronological overview of the 7 years. 11-19 takes various sections of the 7 years in 1 or 2 chapter lumps (approx) and zooms in in detail on some key events from the 6 -10 overview
The distinct 11-19 events are not necessarily chronological.
Yes, the wrath of satan will come first. That was all of the seal and trumpet judgments. JESUS comes at the end of the 7th trumpet. Rev. 11:15-19, tell all about the time when JESUS will take the Kingdoms of this world away from satan, and they will become His. Then the wrath of GOD will be the last 7 judgments which are called the bowl/vial judgments in the bible. Since the church is "not" appointed to the wrath of GOD, they won't be here for those last judgments, but for the rest of them, the church will be here. The pre-trib teaching is false. It's just part of the feel good gospel but it's deceiving and people who believe it won't be prepared for anything when things start happening. So, I'm glad some know the truth, as when you know the truth, the truth will set you free.
Here is something to think about: How will the Anti-Christ set up his authority with Billions of Christians still here? Any true believer would recognize him and expose him. For him to take over and make billions follow him, Christians would need to be gone so they couldn't warn people not to be deceived. Also, why would the Two Witnesses need to come if there are so many Christians to spread the Gospel??. Besides all of that, do you not know the extent of our Almighty God's love that he would exclude us from that?
..and that aside there are many anti-christian things being instituted in the world today and the Church doesn't pipe up very much (certainly not enough to stop it) so is it so hard to see how easy it might be for A/C to step on the scene without much complaint or credulity of the Church from the worlds perspective ?
Easy….have you never read that there must first be a falling away…..there will be a mass apostasy before Anti Christ is revealed and most former Christians will be by then of a mindset to readily accept him. The minority of remaining saints who can discern the truth in the midst of confusion will be dismissed and even branded extremists. If you don't consider that possible just consider how the pope is even now trying to unite all religions and as many non-Catholic churches on common grounds (regardless of whether or not critical doctrines are sacrificed in the process).
God's love never precludes His justice (that's why Jesus had to die after all !)
Jesus never promised us that we would never experience tribulation (aka persecution – but rather to EXPECT it as the norm)
The great falling away was Miss interpreted, it actually interprets in the Greek, the great catching away! Of the church. I really don't get this how you actually think God would allow His kids, that He died for to go through such horrific events, and the point? You wouldn't teach your kids like that, and our Heavenly Father is way kinder than our earthly parents..So you are totally Wrong and obviously need a good teacher to help you rightly divide the word of truth..I suggest Derek walker oxford church London on the subject of the rapture..
Yes I've heard this well worn 'argument too'……
The Greek word in use in 2 Thess 2:3 (the 'falling away') is ἀποστασία (apostasia) which according to the dictionary is: Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
The Greek word for "caught up" is ἁρπάζω (harpazo) which means carry off (1), caught (4), snatch (2), snatched…away (1), snatches (1), snatches away (1), snatching (1), take…away…by force (1), take…by force (2). I think it's pretty clear verbal gymnastics aside) that these two things cannot be confused with each other……
Apologies the bit about justice was out of context…..for justice instead read discipline…..
and for discipline read training and refining………..
1) The believers Will be alive until the moment when "the dead in Christ" rise first (that's All the believers who lived and died and are asleep until Christs return). At the same moment, all of the unjust (both dead and alive) will be sent to punishment.
2) True believers Will understand, but Most of the inhabitants of the world (including Many Christians) will be under a Delusion, so they will not understand (2 Thessalonians 2:3-11)
3) Maybe the Delusion is removed when the 2 witnesses are brought to life and ascend to God? The delusion Must be removed, Otherwise, how could a Great multitude be saved during the final 7 years, because they Turned away from, or refused, the false prophet (Revelation 7:9-14 and Revelation 20:4)
4) Why would God exclude a small number of believers (relative to the great number of Christians since His ascension to heaven) from the Tribulation period, when Many Many believers in the last 1900 years have been tortured and martyred?
Billions of Christians? The earth has a total population of about 6 billion. Of which more than 1.2 billion are Muslim. Leaving less than 5 billion total inhabitants remaining. How many billions of born again, spirit filled Christians are you proposing make up the rest of humanity? If your billions assumption were correct then the majority of mankind is of Christian faith!
Instead of quoting scripture in response to lay a foundation for your disagreement you rely on hypothetical commentary with no substance.
Once one steps away from the pre-trib kool-aid stand ( meaning to be open to understand) they will see that there are too many conflicting scriptures that make the pre-trib scenario less inherent. I wanted to believe in the pre-trib version myself, escapism 101!
The two witnesses are sent to complete a specific task and God also mention the rain falls on the just and the unjustly. As many as 6 million of those who are described as the apple of God's eye were exterminated during WWII so why would we assume that Gods love would save us? We are not appointed to His wrath! But the Antichrist is not dispensing God's wrath.
but still one question in my mind: who is the man child in revelation 12? beacuse immediately after his rapture satan falls and the great tribulation begins… This is the great question, I would like to find answer.
That's the beauty of Revelation….look for the literal unless it makes no sense to do so…
The woman is actually Israel (not Mary or the Church as some suspect)….the sun, moon and stars all give it away (Jacob, Rachel and the apostles). The man child is none other than Jesus and being snatched up to God is just his ascension after his resurrection. We are given a very hurried recap (in super rewind and fast forward mode) how satan caused a third of the angels (stars) to rebel and follow him and thereafter seek to annihilate any hint of a Messiah via massacre of many:-
satan thought that Moses might be the Messiah and Pharoah had all children below a certain age killed.
He had Herod kill many young children in the hope of killing Jesus.
Hitler tried it but couldn't prevent the rebirth of Israel as a nation 3 years after his death.
What is depicted by the dragon chasing the woman is the final beast persecuting and killing Jews , failing to kill the protected remnant that flee and going in a rage after Christians.
There is in fat a huge time gap between the man child 'ascending' and the tribulation – that happens quite a lot in prophetic scripture – often events occurring thousands of years apart are spoken of in the same breath as if one occurs immediately after the other. You find that happening in Daniel too. One second its talking about beast 2nd cent BC Antiochus the next its referring to the end time beast (one is a later manifestation of the other) but mentioned in the same breath. Hope that answers your question
Please let me know if you find this useful
also to demonstrate….Rev 12 v5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who 'will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre.'[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
The ruling the nations with a rod of iron will occur when Jesus comes again. The snatching up occured at His ascension. These two events are mentioned out of sequence and occur thousands of years apart but occur in the same breath/sentence…aah the beauty of prophetic scriptures….
to add a little more….not thereafter (causing the 1/3 angels to rebel) but rather after the curse on the serpent in the garden of eden regarding the 'seed of the woman (eve)…..you will strike his heel but he will bruise your head….' he HAD to kill promised Messiah otherwise he would be dealt a fatal blow (we know that will finally happen when satan is finally consigned to the lake of fire)
sorry forgot to add….satan in the endtimes hopes to prevent Jesus coming again by annihilating all God's people – the same old plan ……
sorry the eleven stars are Josephs brothers…
Micheal the Arc Angel…
well please consider this: didn´t church went through WWII under Hitler and Musolini? Didn´t church went through communism repression under Stalin and Breznev? Only those living under communism know, what that mean. The answer is yes. So I don´t find it surprising, that the church will once more go through such a terrible thing, as Irvin mentions. It is just our western world that wants to escape and spare himself of any suffering. I understand it, but I also know the verse that states, they overcame him because .. they didn´t love their life even unto death.
The trumpet for the rapture is also in 1 Thess 4-16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
The Lord is sounding the trumpet. But in Revelations at the trumpet judgments, these are angels sounding the trumpets.
The elect are sealed at the 6th seal and are the 144,000 Jews. They are gathered at the seventh trumpet.
Also, if we are raptured at the second coming and have glorified bodies and cannot have children, who populates the millennium?
we will not be having kids in heaven where we reign with The Lord. We are only there to Glorify Him. Those who are dead (sleeping now not really dead see 1Cor 5-8- "would rather be" key words…) in Christ shall rise first, then the rapture of the Bride (us, the church) will be reigning and hanging in our mansions as promised in His WORD. No procreation necessary… John 14:2. IF there WAS to be procreation, I believe you would have to back that up w/at least 3verses to be true. I cannot find it anywhere. My Buddhist pal thinks that the "enlightened ones" (yup, Left Behind!)will be procreating a new heaven on earth. Essentially, she believes as we do- that there is to be a new heaven and new earth- EXCEPT- she thinks the ones whom are NOT enlightened will be taken from the earth- as we will NOT be needed….hmmmm– the enemy does such great work in proposing a lie. THINK about THAT. The ones left behind will actually think theyre CHOSEN. LOL- LOL- LOL!!!
the Trump of God in Corinthians and the jump of God the seventh trumpet and revelations are different. When Paul wrote about the Trump of God in Corinthians the Book of Revelation had not even been written till many years later. His reference was to the rapture which occurs before well of the revelation Trump of God. Think about it
We all must remember that the Holy Spirit is the Author of Scripture, not the human writers like the apostle Paul. Paul was inspired through the Holy Spirit, not from his own mind or ideas. The last trumpet from Paul is the last trumpet from John in Revelation, the seventh trumpet. It's the same trumpet. I found this out around 1995, and unfortunately, the Church will go through the Great Tribulation and face the Anti-christ until the Last Trumpet sounds in Revelation, the Last Trumpet in the Scriptures. Last means last. Just think about this for a few minutes, Marc. Thank you.
Marc, I use to believe that the trumpets were different since around 1995 when I changed rapture views. We got to remember that the Holy Spirit is the true Author of Scripture to include the Corinthians and the Revelation. The apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Spirit, not under his own imagination or knowledge. So, the trumpets are the same, unfortunately. Just trace this last trumpet from Scripture, and from the whole Bible to Revelation. The last trumpet to sound would be the Seventh Trumpet! I had a tough time handling this truth back in 1995. But, the Truth did set me free!
Well said, but when the Bible says the Lord will sound the trumpet it doesn't mean He will do it Himself. Just like when God sent His word to Marry, it will not be right for Gabriel to say it is his own word. When God sends anybody a message and it is delivered it is considered as the Lord Himself did it.
What trumpet is the Lord Jesus Christ coming back for HIS second coming, since there is only two? Thank you!
Ray, that would be the last trumpet of Revelation which is the Seventh trumpet. I am not aware of any two trumpets, but seven trumpets in Revelation.
He was referring to the second coming. Not 2 trumpets.
I'm reading that there are 7seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowl/vial judgments. Any other number isn't there.
GOD allows Satan to finish his work and he and the antichrist "hate" Christians. Satan's wrath are the seals and trumpets, then JESUS comes in the clouds and opens up the graves. AFTER the church is out, then the last 7 judgments fall onto the unrepentant sinners, they are called the bowl judgments. There is the tribulation, and then the great tribulation. The church is not appointed to the wrath of GOD, but they "will be here" for the wrath of Satan. We must be purified, sanctified, and justified. We must suffer, and go through trials and tribulations for the Kingdom of GOD. Every single disciple was martyred for their faith except one. It's arrogance for people to think they are better than them or that they are too good to suffer, they are mistaken and they are deceived as well.
Endtime Staff: Last nite 11/21/14 I mad at least 6 comments maybe more. I just looked to see if they were there and if there were any new ones, and all of mine are not there. What happened to them? Why aren't they there? Thanks…
suppose to say I made at least 6.
Kids , makes sure when jesus comes, your feet leaves the ground. if your not sure, then make jesus the lord of your life. because he's coming soon.
I'm from Indianapolis and I'm writing to tell people the rapture is getting ready to start.The cemeteries in Indianapolis is getting weird fog like mist coming from graves.Jesus is about to return and the dead know it.
the only fog like mist I detect is in your thinking…try reading your bible (intently) and asking for clarity of thought…………the rapture is at the END OF THE AGE (see my later posts)
STOP- that's completely Unscriptural. Apparently, Indianapolis is very haunted. The enemy has power over the earth and can make strange occurrences happen. We need to be ready true- and im certain only SOME of those graves will be overturned- NOT ALL were believers!
"Those of us who have been taught a pre-tribulation rapture cannot read Matthew 24 without concluding that Jesus placed the rapture immediately after the tribulation of those days."
I find greater credibility in teaching where pre-trib rapture is not promised. I'll stick around to hear more. Thank you.
No it's not true, it's a false doctrine. The church is not appointed to the wrath of GOD, and they will go out at the 7th Trumpet. The wrath of GOD I believe is the last set of judgments which are called the bowl/vial judgments. So, the church will be here when the antichrist comes and the mark is offered. There is no escape route. We were told there would be lawlessness and that we would have to endure to the end. We would need to persevere and those who did would be saved. JESUS said, "IF they persecute me, they will persecute you". He also had a blessing for the ones that are persecuted. Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and PERSECUTE you and say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. That is in Matthew 5: 1-12 in the beatitudes. Many people are deceived and they will certainly fall away when they find out they didn't go anywhere and the antichrist is here with the mark and the false prophet too. Going to be a disappointing time and they won't be ready, physically, mentally, or spiritually. As Matt. 24 tells us the man of sin AND the falling away MUST happen first "before" JESUS comes.
100% I AGREE COMPLETELY. I (used to be! mid trib )- BUT- I read MATT 24 and it specifically says- the Antichrist (person putting in order a system of "the Mark"…will come BEFORE the Lords return. So, THAT MEANS is ( right after he comes on the scene "out of the sea" ("sea" always means "the people" -so people will elect him/look to him to settle all the political, financial, &sociological unrest) means that we WILL feel "tribulation" . Tribulation in the Strong's greek means "pressure". Pressure to take the MARK!!! I would consider a jewish bridal ceremony stages & you'll see that the Bride (us,yup/church) WILL GO THRU A PURIFACTION process- to be considered w/out "spot nor blemish". Look at EVERY DISCIPLE and note THEIR SUFFERINGS. LOL to those who are so pious to think we will go unscathed.REVELATION 24 even notes beleivers being beheaded. (boy- that's a novel idea in todays world!). If believers could be beheaded, then how come they weren't raptured PreTrib? God is NO respecter of persons, right?
Please explain: 1 Thess 4:13-18 seems to contradict with Matt 25:31-46,
If believers have already been caught up to meet the Lord in the air, then who are the sheep in Matt 25:31-46?
Read the commentary on this website titled "Two Simultaneous Harvests". They describe it pretty well
In Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats are "All" people (just and unjust) which are "dead" upon the return of Christ. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describes that the Sheep (dead in Christ) will be raised prior to the Wheat (those who are His which are alive at His return) (but this event is happening within the same twinkling of an eye). It will happen so fast that no one will be able to tell the difference, nor will it matter. In essence, at the moment of His return, All who ever lived, will be awakened (if dead), changed (if alive), and All judged and separated. The Tares and the Goats go away to punishment at the same twinkling of an eye.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test All things.
1 Corinthians 13:13 Faith, Expectation, and Love : )
AMEN- TRUTH. thnx much for that specific clarification- put in laymans terms. I appreciate it immensely as im sure others do too. I love Irwins SHOW! watch it all the time.
I watched a program that the speaker stated that we will not be raptured until the 7th seal has been broken. Not sure that I believe that. I have heard from many preachers that it could happen at anytime. Your response.
How is THAT possible? Rapture cannot happen UNTIL the False Prophet comes on the scene with the Anti Christ. Plz someone correct me if im wrong-
It's the 7th trumpet, no the seal. Please read Revelation 11:15-19 and that will tell you for sure when JESUS comes and takes possession of this evil world from Satan. And the ark of the covenant will be seen at that time. The Kingdoms of this world will become of Kingdoms of JESUS at that time. Read it for yourself. That does not happen at the 7th seal.
What does the Ark of the Covenant look like at the end of time? Certainly not the one in the Old Testament, that was the "old" covenant, Jesus is the "new" covenant. So what does the "Ark" that carried the New Covenant (Jesus) look like? Blessings…
Jesus will come as a thief in the night. The heavens will pass away with a great noise. The elements will melt with fervent heat.The earth and the works in it will be burned. This is the refiners fire for the just ones (2 Peter 3:10 and Malachi 3:2). Everyone will be seasoned with fire (Mark 9:49) . If anyones work is burned, he will suffer loss; But he himself will be saved as through the fire (1 Corinthians 3:15). The harvest of Both the just and the unjust (both living and dead) will occur at the return of Christ, at the conclusion of the 7 year tribulation. This event is Both the rapture of the just, and the wrath of the unjust.
IMPORTANT note!
At that moment, all are judged.
The just ones come alive receiving their new immortal bodies and immediately enter the kingdom of heaven (1 Corinthians 15:23).
The unjust are immediately cast to the fire.
Thus, (scripturally) there are no humans left in the flesh beyond the return of Christ.
At the conclusion of the 1000 years, the unjust having been awake in punishment since the harvest, are then released from death and hades, and become alive (Revelation 20:13 and 20:5)
: )
Call me crazy, but when God came into my life one day and filled me with his Spirit I would call that the 2nd coming. He came the first time in flesh and blood and the 2nd as a living Spirit. He said he was coming without observation. I am not looking for him. He has given me all the promises here right now. I am living in his kingdom. I refuse to be like the Jews and say He never came the first time and I refuse to be like the Christians and say I am looking for him. My testamony is that he lives in me. I am as HE is right now in this world. I am sitting on the right hand right now with Jesus by the Father. It is finish. I know we could debate about all the inbetween, but when God poured HIS spirit in me that was NO small matter. He took me with him right then. I am sold out to him. He is Finished!
Where will the saved go until we come back to earth
With God, All things are possible, and nothing is impossible. It could be that the saved are only in the air for a moment before receiving their immortal bodies, then immediately enter the kingdom of heaven. It isn't clear, but the is the suggestion that it all must occur in the Day of the Lords return
God said as Christians we are not appointed to his wrath. The Tribulation is an outpouring of God's wrath over man and his sin. So things will lead up to receiving the mark but Jesus will show up to rapture the Church right before.
I completely agree w/Jeanette below! I "used to be Pre Trib" but Matt 24, Luke 21, Mark 13- ALL show "all these things must first come to pass before the lords return. We had a few moons like blood, but the sun hasn't turned dark- (YET. Perhaps a natural or nuke disaster could do this)- and the lord hasn't gathered the jews from the 4corners completely yet. The mark has not been introduced (yet). Do u think you will not feel "Strongs Greek translation Tribulation/"Pressure" to take the mark? I believe THIS is the great falling away- when the love of many (more) will wax cold. The pretribbers will feel duped and fall away from the church., it'll be the greatest end time harvest where the Spirit will be working as in the days of pentacost- there will be miraculous signs and I cannot wait to be a part of the time that Our Savior CHOSE ME TO LIVE IN!!!! HOW AMAZING IS THAT.
The wrath of God is not the same as the tribulation which is a test of the faithful to be worthy of being with the Lord.. We are not appointed to the wrath of God.. Matt. chapter 24 Jesus says he comes after the tribulation. Rev.chapter14:15-16 is the rapture.
That's a dream and an escape route which there is none. That unfortunately is not biblical. The last trumpet is where JESUS comes. Revelation is not in chronological order. Rev. 11:15-19 talks all about the return of JESUS right then. He will take possession of this kingdom (of man's rule) and it will right then become JESUS Kingdom (the spiritual Kingdom). There is no one going anywhere before the antichrist comes, the mark is offered and the tribulation happens up to the 7th trumpet. The wrath of GOD isn't until the bowl/vial judgments which are the last 7 judgments. Please don't be deceived any longer. You MUST prepare or you won't be ready.
True believers are considered to be the Wheat in Matthew 13. The Tares represent All the rest alive at Christs' return.
The Wheat are to remain alongside the Tares until the harvest, at the end of the age, which occurs upon the return of Christ. The rapture event occurs at the moment that He awakens All of the dead, separating the Sheep and Goats. The sheep represent the dead in Christ, who are raised a split second before the Wheat are caught up.
Note that in Matthew 13:30 that the Tares are removed from the earth before the Wheat, which means that All of the Tares (unjust) go to punishment immediately before the dead in Christ are raised, and those who are alive are caught up
Janet: The "tribulation" is the "wrath" of the anti-christ, not God. The wrath of God comes at Armageddon. Right before Armageddon, we will be raptured. Blessings…
PTL ! the Word "Israel" and "Church" do not have to 'appear' for us to be addressed. In my ministry often response from people on the street is "where is their anything about drinking, or marijuana or cigarettes in the Bible"? Of course it doesnt have to state it specifically for it to all fall under "Drunkeness", it still defiles the body which is the temple. We serve the God of Israel, what is it that we also honor "His day of rest"? we should, i dont see where it is ordered to gentiles by the Apostles, it is observed by Paul but Paul is a Jew. The church is in chapter 10 of Revelation where the last trumpet is sound and it says " ……. 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets./ 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, ..and 2nd Thessalonians and Revelation chapters 8-10 scares even Christian leaders from teaching these truths… we will not get out of here Before that last and 7th trumpet is sound or scripture would not be fulfilled. Rev. chapters 8-10 tells us graphically what the earth will experience while the church awaits the sound of the the 7th Trump. Be of good courage.
YOU are correct, the 7th trumpet. Christians and non-Christians will all suffer through all of it. JESUS said in Revelation that those who persevere until the end will be saved. Those who think they are going anywhere are deceived as they are not. They would be wise to study the scriptures. Rev. 11:15-19 tells us plainly when JESUS comes.
I'll keep this short…….. 1290 years between the end of daily sacrifice and an abomination…… 1335 years between abomination and the 'END'………….. about 2040 AD …….. Daniel ch 12 last 3 verses…… What to you think these verses mean?
God set the calendar. If Jesus fulfilled the Spring Feasts in His first coming, I cannot refute He will fulfill the Fall Feasts.
Since the Trumpet feast comes first I believe the rapture will occur first.
Let's recount what happened on the Spring Feast dates during Yeshua's lifetime.
Passover –
This is the first Feast on God's calendar. What happened on this day during Yeshua's time? Yeshua was crucified (Matt. 26:19-31).
Feast of Unleavened Bread –
This begins the night of Passover and extends seven days with the commandment to abstain from eating anything with leaven in it and, instead, eat unleavened bread every day as a symbolic way of consuming Yeshua's righteousness within us in reverence for His innocent death.
Feast of First Fruits –
This takes place three days after Passover. What happened on this day during Yeshua's time? Yeshua rose from the dead (Matt. 27:62 – 28:6).
Pentecost –
This takes place 50 days after Passover. What happened on this day during Yeshua's time? The pouring out of God's very spirit into the disciples and all those they spoke to, marking the beginning of "The Last Days" foretold by the prophet Joel (Acts 2).
These four make up the Spring Feasts. Each one was dramatically and literally brought to its prophetic meaning at Yeshua's first coming. If I were alive in Yeshua's time, I surely would've wanted to have these dates set aside and understand the meaning of these Feasts, so that I could fully comprehend and participate in what was taking place – as the disciples finally did in Acts 2.
Orthodox Jewish records show that from the day Jesus was crucified until AD 70 when the Temple was destroyed. The sacrifices made by the Cohen (priests) were not accepted. Not one for 40ish years straight.
After the Spring Feasts there are 108 days without a holiday. Then there are three Fall Feasts within 23 days. They are:
Feast of Trumpets – What do the scriptures say will accompany Yeshua's return? A trumpet (Matt. 24:29-31).
Day of Atonement – This Day falls ten days after the Feast of Trumpets. What will Yeshua do when he comes the second time? He will judge all mankind and assign to eternal life those who have taken His blood as their atonement, and to eternal punishment those who have not (Matt. 25:31-46).
Feast of Tabernacles – This day falls five days after the Day of Atonement and lasts seven days. What will happen after Yeshua judges the nations during His second coming? The Wedding Feast of the Lamb where Yeshua dwells/tabernacles with His people (Rev. 19:6-9). Accordingly this Feast is celebrated during the Millennium by all nations, not just Jews (Zech. 14:16-19). After seven days of this Feast, the eighth day is also designated as a holy Sabbath. In scripture, what comes after the Wedding Feast of the Lamb? The New Heaven and New Earth (Rev. 21:1-5). The use of the number eight in the Bible typically symbolizes new life. The eighth day Sabbath represents the advent of the New Heaven and New Earth.
Better read Matthew 24 over again, it is addressed to ISREAL, not the church. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: is the church in Judaea? But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: The church does not worship on the sabbath day, because it is a sign between God and ISREAL Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.Ex 31:13, It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.Ex 31:17, Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. Eze 20:12 From Chap 4-19 "Church" does not appear in Revelation, Why?
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,.." 2 Thes 2:1-3
Speaking of the abomination of desolation, we read of the timing of the Lord's return. Paul includes himself when he mentions "our being gathered together to him" [rapture]. We know that the Antichrist "revealing" will occur at the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, or 3-1/2 years into the "tribulation" period.
Was Paul going to miss out on some "pre-trib" rapture? Then surely will I.
How more clear can Paul be than this passage?
God bless.
The day of our Lord Jesus is at hand. Even So close to all of us we must believe and humble our hearts! He will Not tolerate what this world has done to Israel. Repent while there is time to do so. Even So King Jesus Come Quickly!
G. Morris,
Awesome Analogy!
Sorry about the math error. 1260 X 2 = 2520 days or seven years. Divided by 2 = 1260 + 30 + 45 = 1335 days. Daniel 12: says, "Blessed are those that comes to the 1335 days "! YOU"VE MADE IT TO CHRIST'S MILLENIAL KINGDOM!
Now, I want to talk about the other events and when they will happen! 1st. the coming of Christ is like the jewish wedding ceremony. A young man would find a you lady, introduce her to the family, decide to marry her, and make arrangements with her and her parents. His dad would offer a dowery of her worth to her family, agree on a suitable amount, pay the dowery and leave to go back to his fathers house, and start building a house for his new bride. Only when his father said, the house is ready, could the bridegroom go and get the Bride and get married. They would party at her house for so many days. Those that were ready got to go into the wedding chamber, but those that were not ready, were locked out and could not attend.After celebrating they would go back to his fathers house and consumate the marriage. After a set number of days, they would have the wedding feast(supper). Celebration would follow for awhile, and the new couple would move into their newly built house to live. This is not unlike Christ coming to earth to get a Bride, pay the price demanded,(which was His Life on trhe Cross). Go back to His Fathers house(Heaven), build a Mansion, and when God the Father said it was ready, to send His Son back to earth to get His Bride,(The Church, His Bride) and bring her home to His Fathers House! Celebrate,then attend the Wedding Supper Of the Lamb! Now all this takes place in Heaven during the seven years of Hell on Earth, that is the WRATH of God called the Great Tribulation! So.no,you won't be anywhere but in the arms of yourBridegroom You were not appointed to WRATH!
At the end of the WRATH, we will ride White Horses behind Jesus from Heaven to set up His 1000 years ruling on earth. After 30 days of Judgement on the remaining people and nations who rejected Him! The sheep on the right side and the goats on the left side. Then the next 45 days, we will be building His Millenial Temple! Blessed are they that comes to the 1335 days, that is the beggining of the 1000 years on earth with Jesus! Ruling and reigning with Christ forever! Now to exp;ain the total days of 1335. First, 3 1/2 years = 1260 prophetic days. Thats how long the last half of the seven years (3 1/2 yrs.) X 2= seven years or 2550 days divided by 2= 1260 days. In Daniel we read in Chap#12, 1260 + 30 + 45 = 1335 days brings us to the Beggining of Christ's earthly reign!
I agree with this completely and have sat in this teaching several times. it makes perfect sense. NO WRATH- but Tribulation- those 3.5yrs of which we WILL go thru as a purification process. I have Orthodox jewish female clients. They ALL told me the job of the bride (while hubby is preparing her new home) is to go to a bath house and pray daily to cleanse her self w/not spot nor blemish for her day where her hubby comes as a surprise (often with his father) to whish her away. LOOK THAT UP online. Jewish ceremony specifics.
My ONLY question above- is- do you G. Morris- feel we the church will NOT go thru the 1st 3.5 yrs of tribulation (pressure in Strongs Greek)..? I do. I truly believe THAT could be the great falling away (pretrib believers that will feel duped). I think its important to study both Noah AND JOSEPH so we wont feel the pressure to take the Mark. As NO MAN shall buy nor sell lest he takes the Mark. (Rev 13:17). The bible says His 2nd coming shall be "as in the days of Noah". BOTH NOAH AND JOSEPH were prepared, both spiritually, mentally, AND physically (as in preparedness items for surviving). Start stocking up for those 3.5yrs so you WONT be pressured to buy into the Antichrist system! Plus, YOU can be a blessing to others and win souls for The Lord if they were not so prepared. Buy Bibles NOW- they may become unlawful to own someday.
Sorry about the math error. 1260 X 2 = 2520 days or seven years. Divided by 2 = 1260 + 30 + 45 = 1335 days. Daniel 12: says, "Blessed are those that comes to the 1335 days "! YOU"VE MADE IT TO CHRIST'S MILLENIAL KINGDOM!
Singular resurrection?
Rev11:12 And I heard a great voice from heaven saying to them, come up hither. And they ascended up into heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them.
What? This passage is where GOD is speaking ONLY to John. He told John to come up hither and he would show him what was to be. He wasn't talking to the church or any people, no, only John. John was having visions of heaven and earth, back and forth during the writing of Revelation. Nobody is going anywhere until JESUS appears and takes them with Him.
I mean that there is only one event – one resurrection (rapture) for all those who died believing in the Messiah or who are still living believers. There cannot be 2 resurrections, one for the Christians and then one for the Jews.
Those not saved before the rapture, will not go in the rapture. Those saved during the tribulation, will not be a part of the rapture.
Why would God have to seal the 144 thousand if the sealed church was on earth as a witness.
There have been trumpets sounding in all Gods workings through human history the trump of God calling the church is not the 7th trump of his wrath.
My belief after years of study is the Rapture happens before the seals are open.
Matt 24 is addressed to the Jews the church hasn't been established yet.
Point: Those in Judaea flee to the mountains.
Pray your flight not be on the Sabbath, why would Jesus say this even today those that live under the law are forbidden from traveling on the Sabbath.
Rev 5:9 The redeemed men in heaven singing praises.
In Rev 4:1 John hears the trump of God and the voice to come up hither sounds like a perfect picture of the Rapture.
This gives and urgency to your witness that Christ could come now and that no one knows the time .
Any other time line has you looking for a sign and not our Lord.
Peace and blessings
Bro Leon.
That is correct ! The Rapture takes place at Rev. 4:1 , then the seals begin to be opened!
According to Brother Baxter that is not how it happens. Ask him about this and see what he says. JESUS comes at the 7th trumpet. It says that he will take possession of the earth from Satan right then. Rev. 11:15-19.
I think I'll believe what Jesus said and leave the speculation to others…… Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
Dean. Read slowly what you put. He shall gather his elect from the four winds, from one side of heaven to the other. There are 3 heavens, and if we are in the heavens, it means he already has us caught up.. Otherwise it would say gather us from one side of earth to the other. So when he comes down, his ELECT ARE ALREADY IN THE HEAVENS WITH HIM. Therefore we have already been caught up.
When the Son if Man comes in the clouds & sets foot on the Mount of Plives, those who were raptured before the tribulation, will be with Him & will assist in judging the nations of the earth.
You are confused. When JESUS comes, he's not going to touch the ground. At his appearing he will remain in the clouds and all of His heavenly angels will be with Him. That is when the graves open. For the battle of Armageddon he will ride on a white horse and this time the saints will accompany Him to fight the battle. Two separate things. You need to study somemore.
Olives, not ZplivesSon of Man, not Son if Man
Our Church is studying three times weekly about end times. We want to have the knowledge of when Jesus Christ will return for His own. We are looking for the Christ not the imposter. I am yet to understand if the saints will be caught up before, mid or after the tribulation.
PLEASE read Revelation 11:15-19, that is the 7th trumpet and it sure looks like that is when JESUS comes. He takes everything from Satan (the god of this evil world) at that point in time. Hope this helps.
Ask God to fill you with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues (speaking in your heavenly language) because the Baptism of the Holy Spirit includes a power & strong discernment that will assist you in understanding everything.
Every time I read that it appears to me that the tribulation comes first, including the mark of the beast, before the rapture. However no matter what the bible says, the church I go to teaches that the rapture can come in any minute. Therefore, I am trying to decide whether to just drop out of church, or throw away the bible.
It would be better to drop out of that church, not to throw away the Bible. The Bible has the full truth, not the church.
Please keep the bible & pray for the holy spirit to give you understanding. Christ promised us Luke 11:9-10 NKJV
"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened"
Please don't throw away your bible.. As far as changing your church.. most Christians believe they don't go through the tribulation.. you go to church and read your bible to understand God's word.. it really doesn't matter pre or med or post tribulation… you make sure that you watch and be ready when the Lord comes. You only change church's if they don't preach from the Bible and put their on views as the gospel.. then I would find a church that uses the Word of God..
Your pastor is incorrect in his teaching. JESUS will not come at any moment, b/c several important things happen first according to Matthew 24. The man of sin will come and the great falling away of the church will take place. Those TWO important things MUST happen first. Don't ever throw away the Bible, study it instead like you did before and when it doesn't match what he is preaching then something's wrong there.
Do neither. Pray & ask God if you are to remain in the church you are now attending. Read your bible more than you ever have. Ask the Holy Spirit to reveal answers & get baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.
Eugene: According to the scriptures I see in Matt. 24 verse 29-30-31, that "after" the tribulation of those days then the sun will be darkened, the moon won't give out light and the stars will fall from the heavens and GOD will shake the earth.
Now, what happens next, AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN. Looks like they will see Him coming in the clouds with power and great glory. And "then" He will send His angels (at the trumpet sound), and they are going to gather together His elect (the true church) from the earth. I don't see here where He can come anytime, but AFTER a sequence of events. The great falling must happen also "and" the man of sin (the Antichrist) must appear BEFORE JESUS comes.
His appearing is next when He comes in the clouds with Angels to get the church (the dead and the ones alive) and they will all rise up (be raptured) right then.
Anything else is not biblical.
Well spoken Wandakate. At that very moment, All will see Him (revelation 1:7, Everyone alive on earth, And Everyone who has lived from Adam until that point of His coming). (John 5:28-29 All who are in the graves will hear His voice and He will separate them). Now, look at Matthew 13:30 and 13:36-43. Jesus tells us that at that point of the (rapture), the harvest of All the earth occurs. IMPORTANT Note: Jesus says the angels will (at that harvest of the earth) remove the Tares "FIRST", "THEN" gather His Elect. This means that those "unjust" who are alive, will be killed, and the unjust ones previously dead, will All be awakened and judged at That point to go to punishment "hades". The "just" ones (the dead in Christ awakened from sleep at His return) and those who are alive at the point of the harvest, (All, at that point are in the Spirit form, no longer in the flesh). This means that those who are alive at His coming will be changed (body of flesh dies) and quickly after this, All of the "Just ones" will enter the Kingdom of heaven in their New Immortal bodies. Now, ask yourself this question: If at the return of Christ, (ALL) of the "just ones" immediately go to the kingdom of heaven? And, (ALL) of the "unjust ones" immediately go to punishment? Who then is left alive in the flesh on earth during the 1000 years? The answer is found in scriptures : )
Don't do either one. When the tribulation will occur is not essential to salvation. Everyone will have their own opinion, but Peter warns us about "private interpretations." Jesus told us, "no one knows but the Father." We can recognize signs, but we have been having signs since the Crucifixion. There have many times throughout history when people thought that the end times were here. Just trust in the Lord and "BE READY" at all times. Blessings…
Don't speak as one that has no hope. if you are born again and Jesus/Holy Spirit lives in your heart- memorize the Word; so you can recite them to yourself.Have faith so you can please God!
I am a born again Christian. I walk and talk daily with God. Yet I feel I know so little. I know the truth written is the Bible. I ask for God's guidance and to take away any of my habits that are not pleasing to him. I have begun to play Only Christian music as I hunger to stay centered in his love and light.
I so appreciate the explanation of scripture and look forward to growing in Christ through your teachings.
Lin –
It's like you took the words out of my mouth. I am a born-again Christian, but I also feel that I know so little. My prayer everyday is for God to help me make my life one that is pleasing to Him, and that He continue to build confidence within me. I have no doubt in Him, I guess it is doubt in myself. But, as I said, we all have personal battles to face and this is just one of mine, and I know my God can do many a mighty work, even within me!
One very important element missing in all the talk about rapture/resurrection (same event) is that the Jews need to be included because theirs was the promise before it was also ours. The Old Testament, from beginning to end, promises a resurrection of the dead, but mainly for Israel. Jesus promised them the same thing, and also for whoever believes in Him as Messiah. God would not leave them out of the once-in-all-humankind event without including them! That means that they must accept Him as their Messiah so that we can all be resurrected together! The rapture/ resurrection cannot happen until they believe! There is not one resurrection for the church and one for Israel – the second resurrection is of the unbelievers for eternal death. And since we will both become one new spiritual entity together (Eph. 2-3), that is when it starts. (Obtain my book "Rising to Everlasting Life" on Amazon for all the Biblical and extra-Biblical texts, both Jewish and Christian, that describe this singular and unique event of the resurrection.)
"One very important element missing in all the talk about rapture/resurrection (same event) is that the Jews need to be included because theirs was the promise before it was also ours.". You are very right, but condradict yourself when you say "The Old Testament, from beginning to end, promises a resurrection of the dead, but mainly for Israel. Jesus promised them the same thing, and also for whoever believes in Him as Messiah.", then follow it with "That means that they must accept Him as their Messiah so that we can all be resurrected together! The rapture/ resurrection cannot happen until they believe!". They already have been promised by God, then later Jesus (as you stated) and are His people.. Also, what about all of the humans that existed before Judaism? Are they doomed for not knowing something that had not yet happened? Jesus loves ALL of mankind, and as long as people, reguardless of their religion or lack thereof, have not broken any of God's laws I doubt Jesus would want them to be punished in any way.
Hi lauren, blessings to you. This is just a speculation of mine. No one will know anything for sure until it happens. Jesus said so, but to what you were referring to in Thessalonians, it could mean, that by Christ's crucifixion, we are saved from Hell because we believed, repented and were Baptized. Before Christ's crucifixion, we were all dead in our sins, hence deserved nothing but hell. I do not think Paul was talking about an earthly, bodily tribulation. I believe he was talking about a spiritual tribulation that we would be subject to if we do not accept God's gift of grace through His Son. The Church is Holy, but we are not. I believe we will go through the tribulation as a purging and humbling experience. Although we are forgiven, we are unclean from the "affects" of sin and Rev. 21:27 tells us "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." It would be like arriving at a party that we thought was casual dress and finding out that it was formal attire only. Peter does warn us about "private interpretations" sooo, I guess we'll just all have to wait and see. Blessings…
JOANN: We the body of CHRIST are the church. The building is nothing more than the earthly place of gathering. But, the church is us…
wandakate: Yes, wandakate, I know. When I said the Church is holy, I meant the teachings and doctrines. Sorry. Blessings…
There is the elect and the very elect… ( the parable of the ten virgins, 5 wise with oil(Holyghost filled) and 5 foolish(non holy ghost filled). The 5 wise virgins signifies the Bride of Christ and they will be raptured. The 5 foolish will go through the tribulation.
….Malachi 4:5 ….Revelations 10:7…these are important in talking about the coming of our Lord Jesus. The angel(messenger) to the Laodecian church will be an Elijah spirit prophet to prepare the Bride.
The Body of Christ (the church) can no more be under the rule of the anti-christ than Jesus Christ Himself could be under the rule of the anti-christ! Thessalonians is all about this. Until the Body of Christ is taken out of the way, the anti-christ can't rule.
I believe you're leaving out a very important passage. The great falling away and the man of sin/man of perdition (that's the Antichrist), "MUST" come first "before" JESUS appears. The scriptures also tell us that he comes to make war with the saints, that's the church. Why would it tell us he makes "war" with the saints if the saints had already been taken out? There would have been no point in that being there at all. The Church won't be going anywhere until the 7th trumpet.
If one really studies the Word, you will see the anit-christ spirit is working very strong and there is a falling away taking place as we speak. There are homosexuals who believe they are going to heaven, there are those who talk the talk but do not walk the walk and live in deception. There are many false doctrines today, false prophets, leading people away from their first love. There is the false security of once saved always saved, having a form of godliness but deny the power. Many who do not "know" Abba, Yahweh or Yeshua (Jesus) or have Ruah (the Holy Spirit) in their life. Falling away my friend, oh yes, there is a great falling away taking place right now. There will be those who will be saved during the tribulation, and those who were once saved and were left behind with the "wake up" call, so caught up in their own earthly world that thought there was still time. Yeshua said, when you see all these things look up for your redemption drawth nigh. Time is indeed short, but no matter, get right or get left. We are to be ready in this hour, this moment in time, we do not own one moment beyond this very moment.
All I can say is thank God that when the tribulation will occur is not "essential" for salvation. To those who believe in a "post-trib" rapture/resurrection, as I do, then it will be a very "pleasant" surprise to us if we are raptured "pre-trib." But if it is as the "post-tribers" believe, then there are going to be a lot of people that will be very disappointed. The main thing we all need to do is, "BE READY" at all times. Blessings…
Michael: It doesn't matter whether people will see it or not. You are still saying that Christ will come 3 times. Once invisibly. That is not what the Bible teaches. The notion of a "secret" rapture has gained many adherents in recent years thanks in large part to the influences of the fictional "Left Behind" books, authored by Protestant evangelicals Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, and a movie by the same title. The problem with this fantastic scenario is that there is nothing in the Bible to support it. Better to live as if every day and hour were our last on earth so that we may be prepared to meet the divine Judge and to be deemed worthy of enjoying eternity with Him. Oh, and BTW, another "Left Behind" movie will be debuting Oct. 3. Nicholas Cage is the star. Blessings…
JOANN: The "Left Behind" series of books and theses 2 movies are fiction. They are sprinkled with some truth (like salt), but they are not completely based on scripture. JESUS "is not" coming secretly to get the saints. It will be loud (with the sound of a trumpet), and it will be visible (JESUS and a multitude of heavenly Angels). Nobody that's alive at the time will miss the Appearing of JESUS and His host of Angels, not possible. It's an extremely popular
doctrine of many churches, however, "it's not Biblical". It's about money and writing book and making movies, nothing more. People are so easily deceived into believing things that aren't in the scriptures. They need to seriously "study" to show themselves approved, then it will be more difficult to be so deceived when the mark comes. Those deceived might accept the mark and regret it. The Bible even says that the Antichrist will try to deceive the saints and he couldn't do that if they weren't here. The Antichrist makes war with the saints and again that couldn't happen if they weren't here. It says the ones that "persevere til the end" will be saved. How can they persevere til the end if they went out in the beginning? Doesn't any of this make sense to the person that thinks they're not going to see the mark or the Antichrist? If not, then Satan has them blinded to the truth.
wandakate: I totally agree. See my post to Michael above your post. I basically said the same thing, although, you have said it better. I am a "post-trib" believer. Jesus will not come until the end of time, just as the Bible says. Blessings…
The man of sin can not be manifested until the church is raptured. The book of Revelation is not written in chronological order as one would expect! Now there will be a last Great Worldwide Revival before the rapture! This was revealed by the LORD to us in May 2001.
I believe in a pre trib rapture because the tribulation which will be a Seven year period cannot start until the Son Of God removes HIS Bride. Also the God promised "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." (Psalm 37:25) this clearly shows that the believers will not go through the tribulation just like Noah and lot found grace in lord's eyes so as the believers will also be. Another verse to prove that the bride(church / believers/ saints) will be taken out is "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." (Isaiah 26:19-21).Last but not the least there are three feast of the lord still left to be fulfilled as the first four is already being fulfilled by christ, and 5th is the feast of trumpet which is also known as a two day feast because it is the only feast that is based on the sighting of the new moon .That is why christ use the phrase "no one knows the day" as no one can say when the feast will start. Rapture and second coming both are two very different events. During rapture christ will come for his church and during second coming he will come with power and great glory to reign as king on earth.
Keep in mind, Noah wasn't removed from the earth either. He and his people were still in the midst of the disaster and still faced tough times. Noah had an advantage of the truth over non-believers. (Psalm 37:25) doesn't clearly show that the believers will not go through the tribulation. It says nothing about being taken from the earth, only that we're not going to be forsaken. Not to mention the fact we will have more opportunities to witness to the lost. Who is going to do that if there are no believers during the end times?
There will be angels on earth witnessing.
LAUREN: Exactly where did you find that Angels will witness on the earth. Angels are spirit beings. The witnesses will be the 144,000 plus the LORD is going to send the 2 Witness that will warn people of what is going to happen and they will witness in Jerusalem in sackcloth until they are killed. In my opinion they will be Enoch and Elijah. Never read where Angels witnessed.
Rev.14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.
dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." (Isaiah 26:19-21).Here God promised to take us in the chamber just as in Jewish wedding the Groom takes her Bride for seven days which reflects the seven years of tribulation (Indignation). Here the church will have to enter the chambers that shows the it will be physically removed from the earth and will meet the Christ in the air.
The Bible does not teach that the Lord will come 3 times. It teaches He will come a 2nd time at the end of time. Blessings…
Yes ,it does not teach that way but than Why christ told the ten virgins parable and why he told us to watch as he comes as a thief ?"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." (St. Matthew 24:42).Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God . The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.Also the rapture has been occurred in the past as well so we cant deny the fact that it can happen again. I believe all the ten virgins were the believers but the five which were taken for the wedding were the believers who were watching for his return (As thief is for those who are not watching). These above verses makes me think that the true chruch (Bride) will be raptured before the tribulation starts . Keep a watch so that you can escape all these.
The Rapture will not be an event anyone will see. Only those raptured shall behold the Lord and meet him in the skies. It is not a 2nd coming!
The question is I look at two different types of occurrences one being in the vessel form and the soul spirit form. According to prophecies religious leaders and scriptual based evidence. Religion aside it is said that the chosen saints, prophets etc will be taken up into the sky when the time comes and he will come back for them.
According to the Parable of the Fig Tree, the generation that sees Israel reborn (1948) will be the generation that will see Jesus return. If we are to believe a generation – according to the Bible – is 70 years then Israel will be 70 years old in 2018. Did you know Abraham was born 1,948 years after Creation and Abraham received the Covenant 2,018 years after Creation. Now, isn't that interesting! Next year – in 2015 – the Prophecy of Joel will be fulfilled (Joel 2:31). The two blood moons that will appear in 2015 will BOTH be preceeded by a solar eclipse! (April 4/Passover and September 25/Feast of Tabernacles). In the Book of Isaiah God instructed the Children of Israel to forgive and repay debts every seven years. The Children of Israel got away from God and began to worship idols so God poured out His wrath called 'harbingers' or omens of disaster on them. Christian evangelicals and Bible scholars notice how these same omens are coming to America since our country has turned from God with the legalization of abortion, pornography, same-sex marriages etc. The Seven Sets of Seven: September 2001 the SEVEN buildings of the World Trade Center were destroyed in the terrorist attack; seven years later – September 2008 the Dow Jones fell 7,000 points – seven years from then brings us to September 2015 – The Prophecy of Joel!
I "was" a pre-trib….and a part of me still desires it to be true. However, Pre-trib never quite convinced me because of too many ambiguous scriptural proofs….and the evidence you provide when you list them as you did causes me to lean towards the rapture coming before Jesus' Second Coming as a Conqueror. It's hard to switch over to being subjected to all the heavy tribulation coming upon the earth, and the fairy tale rescue before the tribulation. In a small way, I'm a little relieved that I can warn my unsaved loved ones and prayerfully convince them of the Anti-Christ and the Mark of the Beast…..but what makes me think that if I can't convince them NOW…I will be able to convince them then when it's easier to go with the Enemy who'll provide jobs and food?
PAULA: Good that you woke up and realized the "truth" that the pre-tribulation theory was "false". It's a "feel good gospel" and it tells people what their itching ears want to hear just as scripture warned us. There is no "escape route". There's no "fairy tale" either. Fairy tales are in Florida and Calif. at Disney World but the word of GOD is solid and real and above all "TRUTH"!
The pre-trib people are scared and they need something to calm them down. Believing in the pre-tribulation rapture and believing they won't have to worry about the poop hitting the fan and no mark of the beast and no antichrist is allowing them to sleep at night.
They have blocked out the truth with Satan's help. They have been fed the "lie" and they fell for it hook, line, and sinker. BUT, what's going to happen when they find themselves in the middle of chaos, and tribulation? Do you not think they will all freak out and finally realize (yet too late) that they were deceived. They won't be prepared physically, mentally, or spiritually. They will be sad, mad, hurt and they will "FALL AWAY" from the faith. Bible warned of the great falling away and "this" is when it will be, when millions of Christians realize they were not warned of the impending dangers…If this makes any sense to anyone I would like to know it. I will look for comments…The great falling away and the man of sin MUST appear before JESUS appears…You can take that to your pastor!!!
I can totally relate to what you're saying. You've read Rev. Irvin's belief as to post-trib; if you can get a hold of a book by John Shorey called "The Window of the Lord's Return", please consider doing that. Then you'll have solid information to prayerfully make a decision. God bless u!
SCOOPIE: I met and talked to John out in Missouri at a seminar he had there for 3 days. The book says the return will be between 2012-2020. I had written my book prior to John writing his and we were discussing them. Mine tells us that it will most likely be between 2018-2028.
The "appearing" of JESUS and His second coming are two separate events. He first come to get the church (the dead and the alive) from the earth. This "appearing" and what they call a "rapture" are the very same event. The trumpet sounds, the voice of the Archangel (Michael) is heard and the graves open. This all happens then. After that but before the battle AT Armageddon then He returns with the saints on white horses (known as the second coming). Two separate events. This next time (at His appearing) He will not touch the ground. He will stand in the clouds with His multitude of Angels. However, at His second coming he will touch the ground at the Mount of Olives. He will destroy Satan and his minions and all evil from the earth. Let us look for that appearing! The people will "fall away" from their faith before that and the man of sin will also come before that, but then JESUS will appear and we will all be "called up-raptured-taken away" and the graves will open (all at the same time). The glorious appearing that is what it will be…We were to comfort one another with these words.
The Rapture Is before the Tribulation.
About fifteen years ago I watched a doumentary on The History Channel about the guillotine. At the end of this documentary the announcer said, "Have we seen the last of the guillotine?" A chill went down my spine as I remembered what the prophet John wrote in Revelation 20:4: "The I saw the souls of the saints that were BEHEADED for their faith in Christ, for not having taken the Mark of the Beast or for worshipping the Antichrist." I know you can't believe everything you read on the Internet but if we are to believe these 'EndTime Guillotine' websites the U.S. has allegedly received between 30,000 and 60,000 of these beheading machines from China to be used when 'martial law' is declared in the United States. Is 'martial law' referring to The Tribulation? This could only be a rumor – if it is it's a good one because it fits right in with Biblical prophecy.
GREG: Haven't yet been informed of machines that chop off the head, but it could be, as nothing today is out of the questions. I do believe that ISIS will continue to chop off heads of Christians that won't convert to Islam. We've already seen that happen on television. The end times are really all new to me and shocking to say the least.
IF there was a rapture prior to the tribulation and the appearing of the antichrist then why would John have written that he saw the souls of the saints being beheaded for their faith in CHRIST?, they didn't take the mark of the beast and they didn't worship the Antichrist either. NOW, please tell me why would that even been written if "all" of the saints had already gone on with JESUS at a rapture of the saints prior to the tribulation, the time of trouble and the mark? NONSENSE!!!
There will be people(saints) who will come to the faith during this time. I believe that is who John is referring too.
Amen. Let us examine the spirit that is in a doctrine. It is more evil than an unbeliever for a person who professes to have the faith but uses the scriptures as a basis for an erroneous teaching and make to appear a lie to be true! Keep your guard on these teachers. They will pull you down to the pit!
I think you should consider this fact to understand Matthew 24. I am reading your opinion but I think something is impossible according to what you said about the rapture. May I ask you, this question. How can the church be brought to the clouds (I Thess. 4:16-17) during the rapture where Christ will be in the air to meet the church if they will come with Christ (the Revelation of Christ) in his coming to establish his kingdom on earth for a thousand years? I believe there is a misconception here because at the Rapture, Christ will stay in the clouds with the saints but during the Second Coming (the Revelation of Christ) which is also referred to as the "fullness of time", he will step on earth physically and visibly. If I will follow through with your opinion, it will seem that the Rapture and the Revelation of Christ are one and the same event. This is impossible. I agree that after the tribulation Christ is going to come to earth. Before the Tribulation the rapture will occur. It is therefore safer to believe that the Rapture (which is not referred to in Matthew 24) will occur before the tribulation to save the church from the hands of the evil one.
If all the "good Christians" are taken out of the world during the tribulation, who will be left on earth to convert the poor souls who are looking for answers during that time? Would Jesus leave humans on earth for the devil to ravage but remove all the Christians who can convert them? This would prevent the spreading of the Gospel during that time. If he did that he would be condemning these non-Christians before the judgment day. (Mat 11:22) Blessings…
The 144,000 jews!
Our Father will seal 144,000 Jews who will evangelize the world at that time. (see Rev. 7).
Imagine a world with 144,000 Billy Grahams running around.
And who will help our Father in sealing those 144,000 Jews? 144,000 Jews is a symbolic number. It means "a multitude" of people. Exact number not known for sure. These Jews (and others) will have to hear the word from someone and believe it before our Father seals them. The two witnesses will not appear until the anti-christ is revealed. That means that Christians will be helping those witnesses to convert the Jews (and others) before the "coming of the Lord" at the end of time. Blessings…
I think people will figure it out, when they see millions of Christians gone from the earth. Some will believe it was aliens, as Satan is setting that belief up firmly now.
There will be angels on earth witnessing.
The 144,000 is an Exact number! Have you read the book of Numbers? The Lord is providing an exact 12,000/Tribe army. Notice the tribe of Dan is Excluded!
i believe that there is a scripture that says that we are not brought unto wrath.
Romans 5:9 – Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
therefore we will not be part of the wrath of god but saved by the Rapture
JOHN: The church is not appointed to the "wrath of GOD", however the wrath of GOD and the wrath of Satan are two separate things. We (the church) will be removed just prior to the "wrath of GOD". We're here for the rest of it b/c we will be witnessing to those who are still lost. The appearing of JESUS isn't until the 7th trumpet. Remember it says, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the "last" trumpet. The last one is the 7th one, there are no more after that.
We see quite a few people who are having dreams/visions,as there seems to be confirmation in our hearts of the September 25-26th but as you stated in articles past No man knoweth the day or the hour!with all that is happening in prophecy/isreal,as long as our hearts are ready!!you are correct,if there ever was an urgent time,it's Now..Praise the Lord
Jesus said no one knows the 'day'or 'hour' of His return, but did he mention the word 'year'? When Israel became a nation in 1948 Jesus was showing us the time frame of His return. I we are to believe that a generation – according to the Bible – is 70 years then Israel will be 70 years old in 2018. Did you know Abraham was born 1,948 years AFTER Creation and Abraham received the Covenant 2,018 years AFTER Creation! Next year, in 1015 the Prophecy of Joel will be fulfilled as 'the sun turns to darkness and the moon into blood' before the coming of the awesome Day of the Lord'. (Joel 2:31) The two blood moons occurring in 2015 will each be preceeded by a solar eclipse. hejESUS
GREG: you need to change your date here. You typed 1015, should be 2015.
Greg is correct, 2 in 2014 and 2 in 2015
whoops, sorry missed that, but we know what he means
Those In Darkness will be surprised. How can you say we will know the day and the hour, by ready the Scriptures, you are mis- leading people. Jesus clearly says no one will no the time of his return, only that there will be signs, but to say we could know the Day and Hour is a lie, you do not have to contact me, and twist the Word of God around for you have shown yourself to be not of God.
CHARLES: IF you are a Christian you need to pray for peace in your spirit. You are coming across as very critical and judgmental and do you think that is how JESUS wants you to appear?
Charles is right to feel indignation. Stop interpreting the Bible and pray for REVELATION!
Those who are NOT in darkness can read the scripture and the signs. When one thing happens right after another as prophesied, we know the time is near. The Holy Spirit tends to inform those close to Him about events of imminent importance. We will know more and more as the time draws near, maybe not exact day & hour, but close.
Everybody needs to be reborn of the Holy Spirit that resides within them ………
According to this article it sounds to me like you have changed your opinion on when the rapture will take place. You use to say mid-tribulation, this article sounds like post-tribulation. So what do you really believe?
No one knows the day or the hour but only god knows.
it will be agreat moment when Jesus christ comes for his church witout any spot or wrinkle.so lets wait upon our Dear Lord Jesus christ with all joy as we continue reading the Holy Bible and keeping ourselves in prayer.Glory be to God.
Where in the world are these pre tribulationists getting there false theology from? It definitely isn't from the true Word of God (KJB)! They are getting their theology from mans websites, their own theology, and worst of all from false teachers, and from bibles (NIV,RSVB,NLT,NKJ, etc…) that change the meaning of verses, leaves out verses, adds to and takes out words. Let me ask, if you will, who is the morning star? According to the NIV, Lucifer is. (NIV) Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to earth, you who once laid low the nations. (KJB) Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Jesus Christ is the morning star: (KJB) Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. NIV users, can you memorize these 17 verses in the NIV: Matthew 17:21, 18:11, 23:14, Luke 17:36, 23:17, John 5:4, Acts 8:37, 15:34, 24:7, 28:29, Mark 7:16, 9:44, 9:46, 11:26, 15:28, Romans 16:24, (1John 5:7 partially omitted). Pretty easy, huh? That's because they have been omitted! NKJ: Who or what is Sheol or Hades? HELL is HELL with fire and brimstone.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Now concerning the false doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture, In all these comments, there is not one scripture mentioned here that states that Jesus is coming secretly to gather his people, planes, cars etc… crashing. Millions of people missing. The Lord has come and you've been left behind. Where in Gods word does it teach this false hope? My bible says my God is coming in like manner the same way He left!
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 4:1, John is caught up to the 3rd heaven, not the church. John is not the representation of the church, if you read, Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Peter is the representation of the church, not John.
Where in the Word does God say that he will remove His church and/or His Holy Spirit before/when the tribulation begins??!! This theory is contradictory to His word, Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. In Gods word He tells us three times that His words will not pass away. His word is spirit and is spiritually discerned, so, if you take the Spirit away, you take His word away. Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, and Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. So, how can anyone be saved during Great Tribulation if His Spirit or His church is taken out of the way??!!
2thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. In this verse, it is the mystery of iniquity(sin). God is allowing Satan to have his wrath, until, God destroys Satan. It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit or the church.
What the Word of God says:
Confirmation of the covenant, beginning of sorrows,
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
No mention of a secret rapture yet. Jesus says, these things must happen, but the end is not yet. We will be martyred or saved till the end.
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Also, Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Great Tribulation,
Great Tribulation and Gods wrath are two separate events!
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
The woman here in this verse is the church, saints, Gods people, will be feed for 3 1/2 years (1,290 days),(42 months)(time, times, and a half).
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
God is allowing Satan to go to and fro, heaven and back to earth, he's the accuser of the brethren right?
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Satan is kicked out of heaven for good in the midst of the week (7 year period).
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
2thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
2thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
The coming of our LORD, Jesus Christ, Day of Christ,
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
2thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Still no rapture, caught up, gathered together.
Straight from Gods word, there has to be a falling away first, and the antichrist revealed, before Jesus comes back!
1thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
WHICH PART OF LAST DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND!!!!!!THE LAST TRUMP!!!! NOT THE 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, nor the 6th, but the LAST (7th trumpet), (7th seal), (7th vial).
Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Re 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Re 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Marriage supper of the Lamb,
Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The pit
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Gog and Magog Great White Throne Judgment
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Do not be deceived by these false teachers and false comments of a pre tribulation gathering. It is not biblical, it is a false hope, not taught by God. Pre tribbers, question for ya. What are you going to tell all these babes in Christ, or any one you told this false doctrine to, when you see the abomination sets himself up and claims himself god, and we are still here???
Many people believe in a pre tribulation gathering,
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
The real soldiers of God are few,
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Study the King James Bible and let the Holy Ghost give you understanding. Put all doctrines and false teachings aside. The only doctrine you need is from the Holy Ghost. Don't study false bibles, they will deceive you.
Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
I think people will figure it out, when they see millions of Christians gone from the earth. Some will believe it was aliens, as Satan is setting that belief up firmly now.
The man of sin can not be revealed until the Church is taken up! Its an event that will occur sometime during the last Great Worldwide revival. The Lord is taking up a Church in Power and worship!
Pray for revelation and stop relying on interpretation!
Those verses that you say are omitted, are NOT omitted in my Bible, the Catholic Bible. That's because the Catholic Bible is the "original" Bible given to this world by the Catholic Church in the latter part of the 4th century. It was Pope Damasus I who commissioned St. Jerome to translate all the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts (that the Catholic Church determined were inspired Scripture) into Latin. The name of that Bible was "The Vulgate." Even after all of the Protestant Bible's revisions by Martin Luther and the Protestant faiths, the Catholic Bible is still identical to the "original" Bible of the 4th century. I encourage every Catholic on this forum to study and learn from our Bible. The Catholic Bible. The only true and original Bible. Protestant Bibles are not complete. They are missing 7 books in the Old Testament. Some Protestant Bibles do have those books but Protestants only regard them as "Apocrapha" history. They do not accept them as inspired texts as they were "originally" intended. Blessings…
The added books in the Rome book have no prophesy in them….. and the 10 commandments in the Rome book have 2 commandments for coveting, #9 and #10. This is because the 2nd commandment about making, bowing down to, and worshiping statues has removed………… : ) good luck……..
Rocky: There are many books in the Bible that have no prophecy in them. But, however, they are history of our salvation, just as the 7 missing books in the Protestant Bible has. The Canon of the Bible was assembled in the 4th century by the Catholic Church. Sooo, you have the Catholic Church to thank for the very Bible that you believe is inerrant, as does the Catholic Church. There is no difference between the Protestant Bible and the Catholic Bible except the missing books in the Protestant Bible. The Catholic Bible is exactly the same as the 4th century assembled Bible. The Catholic Church, with the help of the Holy Spirit, (as Jesus promised) determined which from all the manuscripts written were the "inspired" word of God. Regarding the 10 commandments: The numbering discrepancy occurs because Catholics take Exodus 20:2-3 and Exodus 20:7 as the first two commandments. PROTESTANTS, ON THE OTHER HAND take the three verses in between, which forbid the carving or worship of idols, and make them the second commandment. They maintain the total number of ten by combining into one commandment the prohibitions against coveting a neighbor's wife or goods (Ex. 20:17) that Catholics list as two separate commandments. The numbering sequence is not as important as the FACT that Protestants, Jews and Catholics all agree on the ENTIRE moral blueprint handed down by God.
Regarding "statues" I suggest you get more familiar with the Bible. Didn't God tell Moses to erect an "image" of a serpent and place it on a pole for the people to look at and then they would not die from the serpents bite? When God gave instructions on how to build the "Ark" didn't He say to make likenesses of cherebim to "adorn" the top of the Ark with the "Mercy Seat?" When Solomon built the temple, did he not display "statues" in the temple. Don't give me this you know what about worshiping idols. No Catholic "bows" down to any statue or worships them. Rocky, Protestants live in glass houses also. They shouldn't be throwing any "self-righteous" stones. You will only get the right to do that when you can declare that there are no sinners in Protestantism. Peace.
PS: Because of the missing books in the Protestant Bibles, that is probably "one" of the reasons Protestants say that the Catholic Church teaches false doctrines. Blessings…
What is your believe on the doctrine of the virgin Mary and the saints that are supposed to intercede for us?
Michael: Please be specific regarding which Marion doctrine. As the Bible teaches, Rev. 5:8 & Rev. 8:3 Saints are intercessors through Jesus, just as we are intercessors through Jesus. Have you not asked someone to pray for you and has someone ever asked you to pray for them. Same thing. Blessings…
That was very good Stephen, but why did you leave out the two witnesses of Revelation 11? They will play a very big part, they will prophesy for 3 1/2 years…TY for your scriptures, maybe some will understand there is no pre-trib.
I thought the Anti-Christ performs miracles and people believe in him and turn away from the Church.
Josie: I am a Catholic also. Have been for almost 75 yrs. now. Praise God. He has been very good to me. While the Catholic Church agrees in some part with Irvin, there are other teachings that the Catholic Church is not in agreement with him. We do agree that the "rapture" will be at the end of time, when Jesus comes backs the 2nd time. (post-trib) Mt. 24. Although, we do not call it "the rapture." We call it the "resurrection." I suggest that you research the Book of Revelation through our Catholic Faith. You will get a much deeper understanding. Jesus established the Catholic Church/Katholikos Ekklesia when He gave the "keys to the Kingdom" to Peter in Matt. 16:18-19. The New Testament was written in Greek. The Church is "universal." The Greek word for "universal" is "katholikos. That is why our Faith is called "Catholic." Jesus established one "church" not churches and promised that the "gates of hell would not prevail against it." Jesus also promised that the Holy Spirit would protect and guide her from ALL ERROR. After Jesus ascended into Heaven, the Holy Spirit was sent (Pentecost) as Jesus promised and the Church was fortified. Revelation is understood in the Church with a more liturgical meaning AND also, as I said in a few parts with Irvin. A wonderful book to read is "The Lamb's Supper" by Scott Hahn. He was a Presbyterian minister who converted to Catholicism. He was an ardent anti-Catholic, but he loved Jesus more than he hated the Catholic Church and in trying to prove the Church was wrong "found the truth." He is now a very prominent theology professor at a very well known Catholic theology university. After reading "The Lamb's Supper," I see the Mass in a whole new "Biblical" light. The Mass is in Revelation. If you want to learn more about our awesome Faith, CatholicBridge.com will be a tremendous help. Blessings…
Stephen, I can see you're a very intelligent man. I am very impressed by your vast knowledge of the Bibles Revelations. I know so little. I'm afraid I've been undisciplined and too lazy too expand my Bible knowledge. I'm a Catholic and a proud believer in that God is my Saviour. I pray for the my sick friends, family and whoever comes my way. I do my best to help others even though I can hardly help myself. I just wanted to tell you how much your writing meant to me and that I have a lot of respect for you.
Your Savior and my Savior is Jesus Christ, the way, the truth and the Life!
STEPHEN LEE: Wow, there is a ton of good scripture there, however there was way too much for people to absorb all at once. Like brain-overload. I don't really think that most people want to read that much all at once, plus it takes a lot of time to read that much. Sometimes less is better. Maybe if you wrote what you wanted to say and just gave the scriptures that would have been a little better.
You should take a deep breath. You gotta be winded by now.
The KJV is not the "official" or the "only accurate" Bible. There are translation issues in it as well. If this is not the case, then why was it revised four times, the last being in 1769? What Bible would you have recommended before 1611 since there was no Bible?
Mike: The Bible was assembled in the latter part of the 4th century by the Catholic Church. Pope Damasus I with doctors and fathers of the church determined which of all the manuscripts were actually the inspired word of God and together they assembled the "Canon of the Bible." Damasus then commissioned St. Jerome to translate the manuscripts into Latin, hence the Bible. The 1st Bible was called "The Vulgate." The reason it was translated into Latin is because the "Seat of Peter" was then in Rome and that was the spoken language. After the invention of the Gutenburg printing press, the Bible was able to be circulated. After the "Reformation," Luther, had the Bible reprinted in German. Luther was German and lived in Germany. In doing so, he omitted 9 books. 7 in the OT and 2 in the NT. You know what the Bible says about adding and subtracting from the Word of God. Eventually the 2 NT books, James and Revelation, were reinserted because elders and people complained about them being taken out. Luther's Bible and the Catholic Bible were exactly the same in teaching except for the missing books in Luther's Bible. Eventually, King James had the Bible reprinted, still omitting the 7 books that Luther had omitted. Therefore, the KJ Bible. However, the Catholic Bible, still, to this day, has all the books that originally were in the Bible from the 4th century. Soo, the Catholic Bible and the King James Bible are identical except for the missing books in the KJV. Protestants who are not familiar with the Catholic Faith, think that the Catholic Bible is a "false Bible" which couldn't be further from the truth. I'd match any verse in the KJV to the Catholic Bible. Food for thought…How can a "false religion" give this world the inerrant, inspired Word of God? AND, how can the Catholic Church produce the awesome Word of God and totally contradict Bible teachings? She doesn't!!! Truth be known, there is NOTHING in Bible teachings that is contrary to Catholic teachings, and there is NOTHING in Catholic teaching that is contrary to the Bible. Blessings…
Some of my best Christian friends are Catholic, and I feel it is not true that nothing in Catholic teaching is contrary to the Bible. The first teaching I can think of is that Catholics teach you to pray to Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. But the problem is, she is dead and can not hear you, and will stay dead until the resurrection of the dead (future) spoken of in the book of Revelation.
lauren: Catholics believe that God is the God of the living, not the dead. "Hail Mary, "full of grace, the Lord is with you. Lk. 1:28 Mary has found favor with God. Lk1:30 Blessed are you among women." Luke 1:28 "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb." Lk 1:42 "My soul magnifies the Lord." Lk 1:46 Think about that last verse. "My soul "magnifies" the Lord. How can the Lord be magnified? He is everything. The great I AM. Omnipotent and omnipresent, YET Mary's soul "magnifies" the Lord. "For behold, henceforth all generations will call me "blessed." Lk 1:48 Do you call Mary "blessed?" The prayer most often about Mary is "actually" in the Bible. Who knew? We are speaking of the Holy, Blessed MOTHER of God. God's greatest creation, prophesied in Gen. 3:15. I do not think Jesus is happy when His mother is disrespected. Jesus is the Church. And we are brothers and sisters in Christ. So if Jesus is the Church, and we are brothers and sisters in Christ. Then Mary is the Mother of the Church and being Christ's Mother, she is also our Mother. AND, since Baptism makes us all (including Mary) "one" in Christ, when we ask Mary to pray for us, we are asking Jesus to pray for us. We are all "one Body!" Mary is not dead. She is enjoying heaven with her Son. Not everything taught by "Sacred Tradition" (NOT man-made tradition) is in the Bible. That is why the Bible does NOT teach Bible "alone." It never did. That was something Martin Luther taught and it is not Biblical. And since the Bible teaches that Mary was "highly favored" by God, why would it be so hard to believe that God would take His mother to be with Him? Did God not take Enoch and Elijah? They were nobody compared to His mother. God does not think as man thinks. Soo, I repeat, there is nothing in Catholic teachings that is contrary to the Bible, as the Catholic Church DOES teach everything in the Bible AND the "Sacred Traditions" that Jesus taught that John is talking about in Jn. 21:25. Catholics and Protestants will NEVER agree on everything but there are other things that we do agree on. Why can't we just concentrate on those things. We agree on everything that is essential for salvation. Until Protestants stop depending on Bible "alone," and start accepting the teachings that John was talking about, we will never be "one." And because of that, we are being disobedient to Jesus as He prayed in the garden the night before He died "that we would all be "one." Blessings…
The Holy Spirit took those books away. Open your eyes and understand that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus!
God Abhors idolatry and He shares His glory with NO ONE!
Michael: My dear brother in Christ, I gave my life to Jesus many, many, many, MANY yrs. ago. He is my Savior and nothing and no one else is. He always has been since the day I was Baptized. I knew Jesus was the "Way, the Truth and the Life when you were probably just a hope in your mother's heart. The Holy Spirit did not and would not change the Word of God. He is a God of Truth, not confusion. It was Luther who removed those books because he thought he knew more than the Holy Spirit. Luther contradicted some of the essential teachings of the Bible, therefore, he was excommunicated from the Church. For example, he taught Bible "alone" and faith "alone" which is unbiblical. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that. He removed James because James contradicted Luther's teaching of Faith alone. Thank God there were theologians, at that time, who insisted that those books be reinserted. Michael, I have 75 yrs. of Church and Jewish and ancient history and Bible theology study under my belt. I have studied every major Protestant faith there is and it always brings me back to the true Church, the Catholic Church. I have been taught by very learned theologians. AND I have the works of many anti-Catholics who converted to Catholicism. Some of them were Protestant ministers. You may have heard about them. Scott Hahn, a Presbyterian minister, Alex Jones, a Pentecostal minister who converted half of his congregation when he left. Tim Staples, an Assembly of God youth minister who was raised Baptist. Also, an ardent anti-Catholic. Rosalind Moss, an Orthodox Jew, who converted to Evangelicalism, then to Catholicism who is now a Catholic nun. My mentor who is a Jew who converted to Catholicism and is now a Catholic priest. I learned a lot about Jewish history from him. If you want to really know the truth about the history of the Church and the Bible, look up CatholicBridge.com. It is a site of Catholic teachings by two converts to Catholicism and their testamonies of why they became Catholic. All those people above loved Jesus "more" than they hated the Catholic Church and in their search for the truth, they found it, totheir amazement, in the Catholic Church. 99% of Protestants have no idea what the Catholic Church really teaches. They only know what they have been taught by other anti-Catholics. Go on, be brave. Go to CatholicBridge.com. There is nothing in Catholic teachings that contradict the Bible and there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts Catholic teachings. Catholics wrote the NT and they know what they meant when they wrote it. The Bible is a Catholic book, written by Catholics for Catholics. Remember the only Christian Church on the planet before the 16th century was the Catholic Church. It is still in existance today, over 2000 yrs now, because Jesus promised that it would be so. Do you LOVE Jesus more than you hate the Catholic Church? Blessings, my brother.
You really need to learn about the real history of the Bible and the Catholic church's persecution of those who printed or owned bibles. It was called 'The Dark Ages' because the Catholic church forbid men and women to read the bible. You would do well to study the lives of John Wickliffe, William Tyndale, and Jan Hus.
The Forbidden Book is a film that describes the history of the Bible. https://archive.org/details/cpm_films
4theKingdom: Thank you but I would rather study and have studied the saints and martyrs for the Faith and their teachings before they gave up their lives to persecution and murder. How they taught about Christ's Church and were fed to the lions and crucified and burned at the stake for their Faith. Nothing like getting gospel teachings from the martyrs themselves than from people who were anti-Catholic and had an axe to grind. Read about the lives of those saints and what they say about the Catholic Church. Read about St. Ignatius who was the Bishop of Antioch, over all the churches in Asia Minor. Read about St. Polycarp. They both were taught by St. John the Evangelist. Why don't you check out CatholicBridge.com and get the real history of the Church. There is history on the Inquisition, Luther, Mary, Crusades, Saints and Martyrs. Every objection of the Catholic Faith that anti-Catholics have. If I were you, I wouldn't throw any stones. The Protestants do not live in glass houses. I have studied Christian, Jewish and ancient history for almost 75 yrs. now. I have studied just about every major Christian religion there is. It all always takes me back to the true Church. The one that Jesus established in Mt. 16:18-19 when He gave the "keys to the Kingdom" to Peter. The Church that Jesus told Peter and the Apostles to go and teach to all nations (universal/katholikos) Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Jesus' words). The same Church that was fortified in Acts at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended upon everyone in that upper room. The same Church that Jesus said the "gates of Hell would not prevail against. The same Church that Jesus prayed for in the garden " that we would all be one." The same Church that has passed down the deposit of Faith through the Apostles and their successors through the centuries. The same Church to which Jesus told Peter to "feed My lambs", tend My sheep, feed My sheep." The same Church in Acts 20:7 that celebrated the "Breaking of the Bread." The same Church that blessed this world with the Bible that Protestants and Catholics study from today. The same Church that was the only Christian Church on the planet until the 16th century when the "revolution" of the Church took place. There was no "Reformation," there was a separation caused by a person who thought he knew better than the Holy Spirit. I could go on and on and on proving what Church is Jesus' Church. It is throughout the entire New Testament. Let those who have "eyes to see, see. "Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you." It is a lifetime journey. Happy traveling. Blessings…
You really need to learn about the real history of the Bible and the Catholic church's persecution of those who printed or owned bibles. It was called 'The Dark Ages' because the Catholic church forbid men and women to read the bible. You would do well to study the lives of John Wickliffe, William Tyndale, and Jan Hus.
It's a pretribulation rapture. The Father will remove His church and the Holy Spirit and then the tribulation will begin. Once the Holy Spirit is removed, God's hand will no longer be holding evil in check. Sufferings and torments unlike the world has ever seen but His children will not be subjected to it at all.
MIKE: I answered your comment and it was actually posted by the site. I hope you read it and you have not made anymore comments since. Did you read the passages that I shared with you? Hope you understand the truth now as you apparently didn't have it before. wr
MIKE: Don't hold your breath. Your belief is not scriptural. It's just not Biblical and therefore will not happen. The wrath of Satan are the seal and trumpet judgments then JESUS comes to remove the church right then, (see Rev. 11:15-19). That is the passage that will tell you when He comes. Then "after" JESUS comes GOD will pour out the last 7 judgments on the earth. The church will not be here for those as the church is not appointed to the wrath of GOD.
Did you not read, "let them grow together and in the end the angels will sort them out". The saved and the unsaved all live together until the 7th trumpet, and then He comes to open the graves and call up the saints of all time that were sleeping. The bible also tells us they were asleep, not in heaven yet or even in hell. Please re-read your Bible. Somewhere along the way you have been very misled. Irvin Baxter preaches the same thing that I am telling you, there is no pre-trib rapture.
It's the Wrath of God not Satan. And if He gathers at the last trump, that would suggest post trib.
So will we go through three and a half years of tribulation. I have friends that are asking about this. From what I understand we will . Answer please. With chapter and verses.
GLENDA: Yes, please read Revelation chapter 11 and verses 15-19. Right there JESUS takes possession of this evil world from Satan. This is the rapture of the saints. Yes Glenda we will go through it. It won't be pleasant but the scriptures don't tell us anything different and the truth is the truth. Irvin Baxter preaches the same truth. Our spiritual health is our most important health and it is what will get us to the Kingdom of GOD. Did we believe? Did we "obey"? We must confess all known sins, we must then repent to JESUS of them, and then we must immediately forsake them. We must then live for the coming Kingdom of GOD and try to please the LORD at every chance. We can testify, we can witness, we are to live for Him and not for our own selfish selves. Bless you.
That was an awesome way of putting it Wandakate, TY. so many think they are saved by "grace" alone and that we don't have to do anything else cause He did it for us. That is so not true, all through scripture it says if you love me you'll keep the commandments, by being obedient to Him we show our love for Him, when we walk in Spirit with Him we naturally obey. You said it so simply and in a nutshell, TY, may we keep our lost and deceived brothers and sisters in our prayers.
So you bank on Irvin Baxter? Hmmm. I suppose he is preaching a misleading teaching like the major doctrine of the Bible about God. How can a father be a son and a son be the same father and the Holy spirit at the same time? Please use more credible resource persons who really understands the Bible.
You know a non-believer when the question "how can a father be a son and…blah, blah, blah". Only a non-believer limits what God can do. If you believe in a God that created the whole universe, including stars, black holes, earth, humans, weather systems, etc. then what limits him to a trinity (father, son & holy ghost)? Nothing. Understanding everything about God is like putting a 4 yr old in a discussion with Stephen Hawkings and expecting the 4 yr old to understand him. I'd never want to believe in a God with limitations. Imagine a creater that says "No sorry I can't heal you, or help you out of your trials & tribulations." "Yes I created you but I can't save you. You're on your own now, my job is done." Instead I believe in a loving, forgiving, saving and limitless God.
It's a pre-tribulation Rapture. Matthew 24:4-14. These verses describe the signs of the end and verse 14 concludes with " And this gospel will be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, AND THEN THE END WILL COME." That end is for the current Church. Verses 15-31 is describing the Tribulation. When it refers to the "elect", Jesus is speaking about Israel. During the tribulation, many Jews and gentiles who did not accept Christ before, will during that horrible time. Matthew 24: 29-31 is not referring to the Rapture, but the glorious appearing of the Lord.
Yes! I agree perfectly that the Rapture will take place before the tribulation. If we are going to examine verses 21-22 this speaks of the Great Tribulation where the Israelites who remains on the earth shall pass though it because they will be the focus of Christ for their salvation. If we will notice the phrase "that for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened" refers to the people of Israel whom God wants to save. This is not the Rapture but the Day of the Lord otherwise called the "fullness of time" when the Lord shall come with the saints to establish his kingdom on earth. Those who believe on Mid-tribulation and post-tribulation who accuses the Pre-tribulation to be unscriptural must examine first their doctrine because they are misleading many. They are answerable to God for their erroneous doctrine.
Yes, the church will go through the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31 is a very clear passage stating this.
Please understand this. Those referred to in the passages of the scriptures you cited are the Israelites. The Church age ends at the Rapture. How then can the church go through the tribulation period?
The earthly Church age ends at the end of time when Jesus returns for His Church and defeats the anti-christ. At that time, He will judge the living and the dead and "His kingdom will have no end." That's the way Catholics understand endtime prophecies. Catholics agree with Irvin on this teaching. Blessings…
If the Church age (the mystery of the Body of Christ) ends when Christ comes for the Battle of Armageddon, then what are the books of Thessalonians talking about when they say that Christ has delivered us from the wrath to come, and to comfort one another with those words? There is no comfort in knowing you have to suffer through the tribulation. (really, none)
Thank you
Thank you for your knowledge concerning God's Word
Exactly, Absent from the body, present with the Lord!!
I thank u for your emails n imputs on the rapture n the returm of christ. The c huh urchs in my town doesnt talk about the things we should be preparing for rather prosperity. The lord gives all but as scripture says the goodmen were not ready. Please keep me ny family in prayer n we will continue to pray for a pave road for your ministry
The pre-tribulation rapture was taught in the church but wasn't as popular as it is today. It was made more popular with Darby along with his idea of "Dispensational Theology" in the mid-1800's. Early church writers, including Hippolytus and Irenaeus, who were discipled under John (the author of Revelation) were taught and believed that the 2 witnesses would appear (being Elijah and Enoch) to warn the church not to take the mark or bow to the beast, but most wouldn't listen anyway. I thank God for this site, and others like it! However, it saddens me to see so much arguing over this idea of pre, mid, or post tribulation rapture. To be honest, we will know by the signs and the seasons, but we do not know the exact time or hour. Instead of arguing about the subject, why don't we FOCUS on reaching out to the lost, and letting "counterfeit" Christians know it's time to get right with God. That is the season we are in, and what is most important. I'm ready to become beheaded if required, to me it doesn't really matter if rapture is before or after the tribulation. One last thought – for those that think that once you die you immediately go to heaven or hell, the Bible doesn't teach that theory at all. You die and you are dead until Christ resurrects you, either during the "rapture" or, if you are not a Christian, for judgement. God bless brothers and sisters!!
I haven't read everything here, but I have a question. If the rapture is at the very end of the tribulation, then that seems to mean that all believers will be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, and put on (the new body, fit for eternity). And if everyone who is not a believer will not have a part in the millennium, then who will be the physical inhabitants during the millennium? Who will have families, and live long lives, but die physically?
No one will be on earth for the millennium for it will be trashed. We are up there for the millennium. The earth will be renewed & remade after the millennium. I have been taught that people with the incorruptible bodies will eventually fill the earth again with children, but as far as if they have them during the millennium, I don't know. My guess is no, for we have much to learn & do there.
Mary Dean this is what I can share to you. Those who shall occupy the Millennium are grouped into two types: Those who are changed into incorruptible body at the time of the RAPTURE (I Cor. 15:51-52. I Thes. 4:16-17) and the Righteous ones in the Old Testament (Israel) who will be revived to life at the end of the Tribulation Ezekiel 37:7-10) and the second type of people are the Israelites who will be protected by God in Zion (Mt 24:32-22. For those who will occupy the Millennium physically, they will be the a) Saints that comes with Christ in the Second Coming (who were earlier brought into the air at the Rapture before the TRIBULATION) b) the resurrected Israel according to the Prophet Ezekiel and c) the Israelites who will be saved during the Tribulation.
to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord….sorry I truly believe you are mistaken. The last breath we take here on earth, the next breath will be in the presence of our Lord.
From the perspective of the person that died, their last breath and then the next minute seeing the Lord, because there is no sense of time, no thoughts, no sense of time passing, in death. But all those who have ever died, are dead, with the exception of one, the Lord Jesus Christ, who God raised from the dead. The dead will stay dead until Christ raises them at His appearing, or (for believers not part of the Body of Christ, born again) they will be raised in the ressurection of the just spoken of in the book of Revelation.
God owns our souls, so we all go back to Him in one way or another, but you do not want to live in your naked soul 2 Cor. We want to be further clothed with our incorruptible bodies, and when that happens isn't perfectly clear.
Paul says:Absent from the body, present with the Lord.
Soul sleep is not biblical
Tom & Larry: That is not what Paul said. Read 2 Cor. 5:8 again. "We are confident, yes, well pleased "RATHER" to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Paul is saying I would RATHER be absent from the body and present with the Lord. That's like me saying I would RATHER be in Hawaii than in California. I believe a lot of people are taking this verse out of context and reading it the way THEY WOULD LIKE it to mean. In 2 Peter 1:20, Peter warns us about "private interpretations." Blessings…
JOANN: Thank you. I've known that for years but it's certainly not mainstream. Most Christians can say that in their sleep, to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. Yes, Paul was using the word "rather". He would rather be out of his earthly tend and be in the tent not made with human hands but in the house of the LORD. The spirit leaves the body and goes to GOD at death. Remember, JESUS did say, "FATHER into they hands I commit my "spirit". He did not commit a soul. A soul is actually a person, a human, and a being. Remember also when GOD created Adam he became a living "soul", which mean in Hebrew that he was a person. I would rather be absent from this body and be with the LORD, but it didn't mean at death. It would happen for Paul at the resurrection of the dead who were (by the way) sleeping. Paul and all the rest are sleeping as JESUS told us and they will not know anything until the 7th trumpet when they come up out of those graves and meet the LORD in the air. Yes, people have made that verse out to be something that it is not. Saying what they want to hear. Thank you again for telling the "truth" as it's the truth that will set us free and GOD in heaven knows many of us are deceived. What we've been told and what is in scripture are usually two different things. WK
Thank you!
How can the antichrist deceive anyone with a great lie, if the church is still here? The presence of the Holy Spirit would be a hindrance. I believe that is why God sends the two witnesses. They come at the start of the tribulation to raise up the 144,000 Jewish witnesses. If antichrist is revealed when he signs the treaty with Israel, and that treaty signals the beginning of the tribulation, we the church, would already have to be gone. If not, then the great lie would not work on those millions, possibly billions, of us who are true believers. When we are caught up in the twinkling of an eye, raptured, Jesus meets us in the clouds. He does not set foot on land. We are gathered up and will return with Him when He will conquer the antichrist and his minions, simply by opening His mouth. This is the Second Coming. He will set foot on the Mount of Olives and the Millennial reign begins!! Jesus is coming soon!! Be ready! Look up, lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near!
The 2 witnesses do not appear until after the anti-christ is revealed and, if you think about it, isn't the "spirit of the anti-christ" already deceiving some, even with the Church still here? Blessings…
I agree with your posting. This is what I have been taught and I believe it is in the Bible. The story of Jesus and his bride is best illustrated within the Marriage Betrothal, a young man and his father would make a contract with his chosen bride and her father. The two would become bethrothed which really is all but being married. Once the contract was made, the young man would go to make a place for her, which usually was a new room added onto the grooms fathers house and as soon as that place was prepared according to how his father
had commanded his son to build it and only after his father approves it then tells his son to go and get his bride…the ceremony would be conducted and then the husband would "snatch" away his bride to the bridal chamber to consummate the marriage thus fulfilling the contract. I said this because Jesus is waiting for God the father to tell him to go and get his bride, the true body of believers and snatch them away to the marriage supper of the lamb. We will be snatched away in the twinkling of an eye. Jesus himself stated that if someone says here is Christ or there is Christ to not believe them because his 2nd coming will be like lightning shining from the east to the west. In other words, his second coming is going to be such an event that everyone will know it has occured. That is not a snatching away of the bride..so it must occur before the 2nd coming. Plus, as children of God, we are not appointed to wrath, that is not to say that one could not be killed by disease or by perilous tragedy, etc. etc. it means that as true believers our sins have been judged at the cross of Christ.
Pre-Tribulation Rapture Proof
The rapture of the faithful in contrast to the Revelation of Jesus at His coming
Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18 ——————–Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14
Believers taken to Father's House Joh 14:3 —————-Believers come with Jesus to Earth Mat 24:30
He is seen only by believers 1Co 15:52 ——————–Every eye will see Him Mat 24:30
Earth not judged ———————————————–Earth judged Rev 20:4-5
A Mystery – 1 Co 15:51 ————————————–Foretold in OT Zech 12:10
Christians taken first 1Th 4:13-18 3 Mat 13:28-30 ——-Wicked are taken first Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1,
He comes to present the Church to Himself 2 Co 11:2 —He comes with His Church for judgement and to set up his Kingdom Rev 19:6-9, Zec 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21
Casts Satan out of heaven to earth Rev 12 ——————Binds Satan for a thousand years Rev 20
Occurs in the twinkling of an eye 1Co 15:52—————Comes to earth to do battle at specific locations Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zec 12:9-10
Jesus descends with a shout. 1Th 4:16 8 ——————–No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21
Sixteen scriptural proofs that the rapture is pre-tribulation *
Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.
Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.
Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.
In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don't look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus' coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."
Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day.
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.
Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1).
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.
Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1).
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the Church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "Church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.
**Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.
Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14).
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.
Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10).
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.
Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.
Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.
Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.
Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.
Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.
Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46).
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.
Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium.
Great response! And may I add this: Read Hebrews 12:25-29; Revelation 12:7-12; Revelation 6:12-17. God is about to utter His voice to shake not only the earth, but also the heaven; in order to remove (translate, transpose) that which can be removed. That which rightfully belongs to Him (the gathering of His saints) will be translated from earth to heaven. And the Devil and his fallen angels will be cast down to earth from heaven. We may very well be between the opening of the fifth and sixth seal. Be ready for that upward call of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. He is the rightful Owner and the righteous Ruler of my life. He is my Life and First Love. Oh, and quite possibly our Lord Jesus already fulfilled the first half of Daniel's Seventieth Week Prophecy. There may only be a definite 3.5-year period remaining to close out this present age. Yes, our God is about to utter His voice. There! That is His SHOUT!
STUDENT OF GOD'S WORD: Please don't forget that the great falling away "MUST" happen first and the man of sin/perdition (the antichrist) "MUST" come first "BEFORE" JESUS returns for those saints. It's not happening after, but before. When people learn that the Antichrist is on the scene, they will lose trust, faith, and abandon their churches and that will be the great "falling away". They will feel abandoned, deceived, lied too. All along they thought they were not going to be here to see this Antichrist person or know about or be required to accept his mark in order to buy or sell and then they are faced with it. Then, keep in mind that JESUS doesn't come until the 7th trumpet. Nobody's going anywhere until all these things take place. GOD has a plan, His plan will be carried out regardless. Scripture doesn't tell us a lie. JESUS said, "let them grow together and at harvest time they will sorted out, the sheep from the goats". There is no escape route. We should as you said be ready for that upward call but there is a sequence of events that "MUST" happen first.
Thank you, "Me" for this wonderful comparison of pre-trib rapture vs 2nd Coming rapture. I am going to save this and share it with people who are worried and who feel that somehow we should not escape persecution. Christians have been subject to persecution throughout the ages, but end times are a completely different subject. As we see prophecy being fulfilled, we as Christians should be excited about our escape and therefore have greater motivation to share the good news. Thanks again for taking the time to share this with us.
Hi. Thanks for your reply. I got this info from a different website, but the author of this site deleted the link. The Bible never said we wouldn't face persecution, even in the end times. It is happening to Christians all over the world as we speak. Those of us who are raptured however, will not have to face the persecution of the tribulation. The Bible is not clear about how bad things will get before Jesus comes to take us away "in the twinkling of an eye". There is nothing that says we shouldn't prepare for bad things to come. We just have to keep the faith and stay strong in the mean time. I anticipate that anything could happen right now. The Bible says, 'The glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.' We should all be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves! The Bible says to 'test the spirits'. Do not be deceived! I look up, I lift up my head, and I wait for the sound of that GLORIOUS trumpet! God bless you and keep you!
Whoa, you go! I see the truth proclaimed! Great post! Good work! And AMEN!
Why do people continue listening to this guy? Baxter has messed up eschatology and has no idea how the bible should be interpreted. STOP FALLING FOR THIS FALSE TEACHER
We are not called unto wrath, and when that bowl of wrath is poured out by the Lord, we won't be here cause it will literally be hell on earth. But it seems that we will have to go through some very hard times nonetheless. Lord Jesus be with us.
Scoopie: Nice to find some intelligence on this post. The church is not appointed to wrath (that is the wrath of GOD), how true. It will be hell on earth as well when that happens. They are the last 7 judgments that will fall on the earth. The hard times you are referring to are the seal and trumpet judgments and there happen to be 14 of them. Everyone (saved and unsaved will be here for those first 2 sets of judgments. Then the LORD will come in the clouds with his angels and the graves of all the people everywhere will open. The saved will "rise up" to meet the LORD in the air and the rest (saved) that made it through the tribulation will meet them in the air. After all of those are with the LORD (then) the bowl/vial judgments will come on the earth for all who remain after the rapture(the catching away) of the dead saints and the earthly saints. That is the Bible. Many people don't believe what you or I say but many are also deceived. JESUS said in Matt. 24 to his disciples, "do not be deceived". They could know the truth but they don't seem to want the truth, just what their itching ears want to hear, a feel good gospel that says, "tell me I'm going to be okay", "tell me I'll be out of here and won't have to worry about anything", and "please tell me pastor that I won't have to suffer under that awful Antichrist person". Please wake up, there is no escape route. Just as you said, some very hard times are ahead. Isn't it best to be prepared, physically, mentally and spiritually before it's too late?
Please study the mystery (of the Body of Christ) The Church is the Body of Christ, there is no separation between Jesus Christ and His Body, the church. The book of Revelation deals with the Bride of Christ (Israel) when God will in the future fulfill all His promises He made to Israel in the past. The Body of Christ (part of the great mystery) will never be under the rule of the anti-christ because Jesus Christ could never be under his rule, and we are part of the Body of Christ.
And the woman who gives birth to a male child? Born with a hidden crown? Yes and a special name! A new creation god made to judge Satan, an angel of god. The promised one is here. The dead see her! The book of life revelation 20:15 is gods new child. To balance past and bring hope to the future. To the bride!
You capitalized satan, but not God. Interesting.
Yes, I find it interesting that she capitalized satan, but not God.
I believe in Christ
How many raptures are there? What happens to the souls under the altar that were martyred(killed) during the tribulation for believing in Christ. Refusing to worship the beast. Wouldn't there have to be a second rapture for them if it is pre-trib.
I disagree with this statement, the dead in Christ rise firstss
Whatever you believe about the timing of the rapture, or whether you even believe in Bible prophecy, if you were to die right now, you would be immediately removed from the earth to stand before your Creator for judgment. I disagree with it because "the dead in Christ rise first" before we are caught up with Him in the air. As well as the numerous books and verses saying we rest till the judgement books are opened. So I don't believe that we get judged at our death. My main verse is Rev 20:9-14. It speaks of the dead being judged After they have been resurrected after the 1000 years isolation of satin here on earth.
I do believe the rapture issue is not a salvation issue unless it becomes one through ignorence and God forbid someone takes
the mark thinking we won't be here when it's forced upon everyone. And since most of modern day christians have settled
for man made Christianity and fallen away from what the apostles taught it's almost a moot point. Returning to the Gospel and obeying it is far more important for this generation . I Cor. 15-1-4
Try examining certified church history told by famous and credable historians for the very real story of the one and only true church of the Lamb for it's roots are deep and glorious. Oneness Penticosalism est. AD-33 never died. Never needed a great reformation for if it did the words ………"the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church " would be incorrect. http://www.fulfilledprophecy.net/files/apostolichistory_1_.pdf
To David Price – Outside of what Irvin Baxter has to say – the link you posted is the most important and informative of any I have seen in about the last year that I have been on here.
If I may suggest – please also post that link in the other categories and especialy in "Mystery Babylon-Who is it", where more Catholics are likely to see it.
Thank you for your post !
Bro Irvin, can you please clear something up for me? When we die we go to Paradise or Abraham's bosom. What does it mean "the dead will rise first" if we are in Paradise we are not dead any longer. God Bless.
PATRICK: JESUS used parables, allegories, and illustrations to explain himself to the people in those days. Also please realize that the Kingdom of GOD is a spiritual Kingdom, it is NOT a physical kingdom of flesh and blood. When we die we go the our grave and JESUS told us that we sleep. The spirit within us leaves and goes to GOD but the soul (body) sleeps until He comes for us again. Each spirit will join the soul when JESUS comes. Please see these scriptures to explain what I am trying to convey to you…
Daniel 12:2
John 5:28-29
John 11:11-14
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,and10.
We're actually in the grave as you can see, and according to scripture, we sleep. No, it's not what we've been told in the churches, but it's the truth. The dead are not aware of anything. They are not playing harps or walking the streets of gold. The New Jerusalem is coming (future) down from Heaven and then perhaps streets of gold but until then we wait in the grave for JESUS to come for us. We will go with him "IF" our name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life. If it's not there because we were not saved and we did not obey, then we will not go to be with Him. We will be completely separated from GOD "forever" which is our "eternity". We don't want that do we. That's the worse thing that could ever happen to a person (soul).
Wandakate please be discrete in your reply. Never give finality to your opinionated opinion to a person who seeks the truth otherwise both of you will be misled as what Christ says "the blind cannot lead his fellow blind, otherwise both of them will fall into the pit." There are misconceptions I have noticed in your words: The soul is different from the physical body. We see the body but not the soul It may clear you some points with these. A person is made of three components: Body that dies; the soul that are precious to Christ whom He saves and the spirit which is the likeness of God given to man. Please consider these scriptures: The body dies and returns to the dust who will loss consciousness (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Isaiah 26:14; Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Psalm 6:4-5) After death, the soul returns to God with consciousness because the soul itself is life and the spirit gives it the consciousness. To prove that the body is not the soul as you emphasized please consider these scriptures: the body dies and returns to dust (rot) as I have mentioned in the passages above and Ecclesiastes 12:7but the soul are kept in the heavens under the altar of God (Rev. 6:9; Rev. 8:3, 5; Rev. 9:13; Rev. 14:18 and Rev. 16:3). The body remains in the grave (earth) the soul returns to God (heaven). Please do not quote one or several verses without understanding the context. Study your bible more to become more effective sharer of the word. Thanks anyway for your effort. God bless
You can't separate your soul from your body. No person (soul) can live without his body. Remember the first lie Satan ever told to mankind, was "you shall not surely die". Everyone who has ever died since Adam is dead (no longer exists), with the exception of one, the Lord Jesus Christ, whom God raised from the dead. At the appearing of Jesus, He will raise the dead in Christ. The rest of the dead are raised (in the Book of Revelation), which is future.
The term "dead" is used to relate the message properly. Physically those people would have died although they remain alive spiritually.
I believe we should be ready at any time for His calling.
Does anyone have a scripture addressing the question of, if not all family memebers get raptured, will the raptured family members know some of their family got left behind? It says no tears or sadness in heaven so I was curious.
We do. This is the very essence of the Great Commission by Christ for Christians to preach the gospel from Judaea to the uttermost part of the earth. If we do not want to shed tears for them if they will be left for the Rapture, let them know Christ now and get them ready for the coming of the Lord. God bless.
If I have learned anything over many years,it is that in the Christian faith,there are numerous aspects that are in disagreement,and this is one of the reasons we have denominations for one thing.Some say if not King James Version,than you're wrong.Some say once saved,always saved,as others say,no you can lose salvation through sin,and then there are those that say basically you can quit and become an apostate.Then there is tongues,method of Baptism,physical positions for prayer.Proper dress,mixed bathing,and on and on it goes.Even the proper way to actually be saved.I was raised in the Lutheran church and never heard of an altar call till I came south,I just attended classes and then was confirmed at which time I then could take communion.Upon coming south I eventually left the Lutheran church and joined an independent "Bible" church and began to learn all the dos and don'ts.That church blasted the Southern Baptists on a regular basis.That church now bears the title Baptist.I attended a Methodist college and served as a pastor for several years.In order to be licensed I had to explain the doctrine of apostasy as they believed it.I left the denomination,attended a Baptist church and finally ended up at a "Christian" church.(Denomination)I was forced to leave that church on the week after I joined because I said I believed in eternal security which they don't,but talk about the left foot of fellowship,I got it.After two fine men in the Sunday School class telling me to ":go back where you came from," I left actually in tears,went home and threw my membership certificate in the fire place.Four days later the pastor called and explained about the men's tempers.I simply said I had no hard feelings but would not be back.So in conclusion,I don't attend church and I ask God for forgiveness.I don't fear God in the Biblical sense of awe as people say,but I am afraid because I know of His possible wrath.I fear Hell,and something being done to me every day of my little pets.My parents both had died before I turned 14,my mom at 91/2,dad at 13 so psychologically I may have problems about a father relationship.My father was good to me so it doesn't stem from that.I share that because I don't recall either ever attending church,so I have to accept that they both have been in Hell since 1949 and 1953,and I wonder sometimes when enough punishment is enough?God bless you all.
You are not just saved, you are born again when you confess Jesus as your Lord and savior, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead. You are born again of incorruptible seed, and you will never become un-born, any more than you can become un-born of the seed of your father and mother you have physically.
I pray you are healed from all the religious abuse you have suffered, and have the peace of God once again!
Glen, there are lots of teachings churches preach and teach the way to be saved. This turns us from one church membership to another until we find ourselves enslaved by the question, "Am I really saved?" To remove all your fears, the Bible says "Believe in the Lord and thou shalt be saved". This is the only truth we can trust. Any addition to what Christ did at the cross. Keep your confidence in Christ. As long as you live by faith in Him, there will be no problem about what manner you will be saved as taught by churches/denominations. God bless.
GLENN: Lost both of my parents and have a similar circumstances as you, but let me tell you this. You say that you have to accept that both of your parents have been in hell since 49 and 53. Well first of all you're not 100% sure that your parents didn't ask for forgiveness and GOD excepted them. Secondly, they are not in hell. They are both dead. When we die our spirit leaves the body and go to be with GOD. JESUS said, "FATHER, into thy hands I commit my "spirit". At death for us its the same, our spirit returns to the FATHER. Dead people don't know anything, pls. read these scriptures and it may help you to know that they have not yet been judged. They would not be in Heaven or Hell yet. Judgment won't be until JESUS comes…That will be at the 7th trumpet call, see Rev. 11:15-19. Now see the following to confirm that the dead are not in hell or heaven.
Psalms 146:4…spirit left the body(soul), and went to heaven, the body(soul) returned to the earth.
Job 14:12-14,21
Psalms 104:29
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10
Daniel 12:2
John 5: 28-29
John 11:11-14
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Psalms 115:13-17
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Is there a "spirit" within man?
Job 32:8 go to the grave and sleep, not aware of anything…
1 Corinthians 2:11…a spirit within us. Not a soul, but a spirit. Man is a soul.
Psalms 17:15…talks about waking up (they were not in Heaven or hell, they were asleep).
Matthew 27:52..graves were opened, bodies of the saints were asleep(dead).
Mark 5:35-39…JESUS told them, she's not dead, but sleeping.
John 5:25-29…In the graves, not heaven or hell.
Has anyone seen GOD? You would think that if anyone had died and gone to heaven they would have…John 1:18.
John 6:46…Only JESUS has seen the FATHER GOD.
One other one that I just located…Acts 7:59…Stephen asked the LORD to receive his spirit. and then it says he fell asleep(died).
All scripture here from the KJV of the Holy Bible.
Comments are welcome from readers. But, the truth is the truth, and only it will set you free.
Glenn. I am so very sorry for your loss. I will be praying for you. The Bible is clear about one thing. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: No man comes unto the Father but by me." Jesus is your answer. "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, then you will be saved." That's all that matters. Christ died for you. Will you confess that Jesus is Lord and admit to Him that you are a sinner and believe in your heart that He was raised from the dead? If you do, you will be saved! God loves you so much that He sent His only Son to die on a cross for your sins! The worst punishment. Isn't that amazing? All we have to do is accept the free gift that He has offered! What could be better than to know that you will live forever, because you believed? We are human. God is not! He is perfect! He loves us unconditionally! He paid the price so we wouldn't have to go to hell. We can live with Him forever! WOW! I can't think of a greater love than that! Can you?
Hi Glenn, I too have been disappointed in denominational churches ( Australia). I have this comfort. I know Jesus loves me. Really. I say this to you, " Jesus came preaching the kingdom of heaven. This is how I explain it. The bible is the Word. If you live according to scripture,as you believe in sincerity, then you live in Christ, the Word. And God lives in you also as you are the temple of God. He then Keeps you and Bless you. For as long as you desire this. If you ask Him to go, He will go. But if He is Keeping you then it is impossible for you to fail for as long as you wish to live in His kingdom. Don't change kingdoms. The commands, Love and worship God, love your neighbour. Keep it simple. Be sincere, trust. Trusting in God is living in the fulfilled Sabbath. He will grow you according to His plan. Just always give thanks. Nothing can happen except what His love for you requires. And He does love you and He wants you to be eternally saved. He created you. You have been loaned a body to use to fulfill His work. Do this, lovingly and fearfully, respectfully. love in Jesus ed
Hello Glenn Dupuis. I just hope you don't let the trials on this earth, that we all go through some, don't let it cause you to turn from god. because that is the whole reason for the trials. satan is trying to pull you away form God and your salvation. Call on our Lord and HE will deliver you.
Check out "The Final Word" on YouTube and you will find answers to your concerns. Pure Word for these last days no filler.
God Bless
Glenn.. Many have had a rough start in life, But its not the start that matters.. its how it ends.. God is not finished with you. if you take one step towards God .. He will take two towards you.. Find a United Penecostal Church and go to it .. Just 1 time and God will meet you there.. You still have a family ..its called "The family of God" You can be "Born-Again" And walk in newness of life…. Trust and have faith.. Do this one thing….Just do it… Hes waiting for you…..
To Sharon – VERY well said. I'd like to add that anyone can call EndTime at the number listed on the Home Page, they can tell them where they live, and EndTime will give them a Church, or Churches near them, where they can get immersed in water and Baptised in JESUS NAME, and also get Baptised with the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.
Thank you for your post Sharon and have a very Blessed week !
Please glenn don't give up on God because of what of other s believe but trust God to give the meaning of His Word and when He does stick to it.Jesus still loves you and hasn 't given up on you
All I can say is Man is flawed and God is perfect. We seek God, usually through the Bible, but also from within. Only God has all the right answers. I too have been rejected by churches, I have learned to stay away from certain subjects when around other christians, unless they are very close to me. The relationship is with God and with Jesus, I know that they will always be there, always be perfect, and always love me no matter what I do, say, or think.
share the exact message about rapture of church
I came onto this site & the first issue that I went to was your stand on the rapture. I must say that I was very pleased with not only your 'balanced' stand but also on your scriptural backing on the subject. Shalom
Mr Baxter. A site such as this tends to bring forth arguments and that does not serve God and Jesus. One's own studying of the scripture and prayer to Him for the understanding, is to me the right course of action. You may be a preacher but after perusing the replies on the site and the many diverse "ideas" and arguements it brings confusion upon those that rely on someone else to explain what they do not yet understand. Sometime it takes reading as much as 20 (or more) times for it to be revealed to you. I place my faith in God to give me the understanding. God's word is sufficient for me–not the words of others who preach their views as gospel, or "the only possible explanation", for His Holy Word. My prayers are with you in a deeper and truly understanding of scripture.
People are people, and the thinking of each and every one of us is as different as our fingerprints…the majority of those that believe in the rapture, all tend to lean the same way…there will be those that don't agree, and that is the name of the game…Mr. Baxter, in my belief has come closest to what I believe is the truth, and the 'confusion' of those that listen to him is no different than those that listen and interpret what a school lecture is about. We hear what we hear, and understand how we hear it…the bottom line is simple: do you have FAITH in something you can not see or touch or feel? do you believe that what Christ said is true? do you have the faith that Christ WILL come? or that we will get raptured? regardless of how, when, where, or why? People are allowed to have their opinions, and as long as these opinions are FOR CHRIST…and not against him, then so be it…let them speak! I myself don't really CARE when or where…I care that it WILL take place and I WANT to be with the bunch that goes up to meet Jesus…or if not, then I WANT to be here when Jesus steps foot on this earth! I don't care where He does it…just that he will do it! and I want to be the one to see Him, be with Him, and enjoy His holy and righteous rule…So, relax, and just take it as it comes…believe and understand what you read and interpret…JUST AS LONG AS IT IS A POSITIVE thinking, and a FAITHFUL one.
You proved my point exactly.
my analysis of Matthew 24:29-31 concerning the gathering of the four winds is that it is take the left behind save persons out of the world for a moment so that Jesus Christ and his army can destroy the ungodly and renovate the world for the Millennial Kingdom.
Reasoning for Pre-Tribulation Rapture
The Rapture cannot be after the Great Tribulation and I will explain why and point out things. First with the basics, from the story of Lot and Noah, we see that God does not destroy the righteous along with the just. Jesus said in Matthew that it would be as in the days of Noah: The Rapture has the same context. In Daniel 9:27, the AntiChrist is makes a covenant with Israel for one week. One week according to the Bible is 7 years. The Rapture begins at the signing of the Peace Treaty with the AntiChrist. The signing is a point in time, which we do not know and is different from knowing the actual date and time. After the 7 years, Christ returns with his saints to establish his kingdom.
If Post Tribulation Rapture theory were true, then there would be no point in warning people to get ready for the Rapture, but instead the Second Coming of Christ.
Rapture (Christ is in the Air)–>Great Tribulation for Left Behind–>Second Coming (Christ returns to the Earth)
A Misconception concerning the Last Trumpet in 1 Cor 15:52 and Seventh Trumpet in Revelations.
The last trumpet that Paul is talking about has a different meaning, which is not the same as the seventh trumpet John refers to in Revelations
The seventh trumpet is referring to the Second Coming because the world became part of the Kingdom of God.
Post Tribulation Rapture Theory somewhat makes the Second Coming and Rapture part of the same event when the Bible clearly points out that the two are separate events.
Post Tribulation Theory underhandedly tells Christians that they have no option, but to go through the Great Tribulation. This theory is a lie; It causes people to not believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and as a result, they are left behind by disbelief.
Find the Scriptures..
My opinion.
The rapture is after tribulation and after the 1000 years. The purpose of the rapture is to "hold" people in a place while the heavens and earth are burnt and new ones come down. Otherwise what happens to us then. From my knowledge of God, He will use the tribulation to build peoples faith. He will "keep" us through this most dangerous period of 1260 days and people will go "WOW" now I believe. I can't see God wasting such a brilliant opportunity to grow our faith. Once any one dies then their opportunity to move closer to Jesus finishes. The historical timeline is not relevant. We should all be ready, every minute, every day. Love in Jesus
If the rapture is post tribulation, then we would know wouldn't we? There wouldn't be a need to watch until the it started and then 7 years. I believe to always be aware it could happen any moment and live clean lives in anticipation of hearing Him call us. I get up every morning and say every night , maybe today Lord , maybe today.
Forgive me, when I wrote seventh trumpet, I actually meant the Seventh Angel blowing his trumpet from Rev. 11:15
The "rapture" is a departure from anything written in the bible, and, in fact, is a notion constructed in the early 20th century. Nowhere in the Bible does the word "rapture" appear, nor does any verse describing or even alluding to anything like an event that will spare Christians from the great tribulation. If you teach that which is not in the Bible, you become "radicalized" just as sure as any other false prophet.
I do believe we are living in the time of the soon coming of Jesus Christ. Wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, disease, famine, men being lovers of themselves and all the other predictions mentioned in the Bible are staring us in the face today. We as born again children of GOD must stay prayed-up, stay strong in the word of GOD and continue to witness to those who have not accepted Christ into their lives
My understanding on the time of rapture is similar to the above. Could the first 3 1/2 years be the Devil's tribulation and the last 3 1/2 years the wrath of God, at which time we will be taken up before it happens? Or is the whole 7 years considered the wrath of God. I can picture challenging times even Anti Christ persecution for a few years whereby the Lord is pruning His children to become purged from selfishness and sin and formed into His Image. He said when He comes for the church it WILL BE without spot or wrinkle. Presently the church is severely spoiled! (speaking for the American church). Your comments concerning the early church not expected to know the day or hour and not the present day one is a good point. Thanks in advance for your comment to my suggestion.
Arlene Puff
Let's just be ready!! Witness, fast, read The Word, and pray like your life depends on it…… because it does!!!
I have read through more comments here. I am quite upset some of you talk to each other terribly. These sites should be for encouragement not pulling down each other's viewpoints we will not all agree as there are so many teachings out there we are not to be caught in debates with each other gods word is clear about that. As long as we believe in The Lord Jesus Christ as son of God and Saviour soon coming king we don't need to worry when he returns or if there is a rapture cause we are in his hands and whatever he has planned for us in him we won't miss out. This is becoming a joke this need to know everything. I don't understand or believe all teaching I hear when it comes to end times I think the church is doing a good job of confusing the truth our focus should be loving The Lord keeping our lamps full of the spirit not grieving him with judgement on each other we are to love each other and encourage each other. I prefere to not look for signs jesus told the Pharisees it is a perverse generation that seeks it. We only need to be ready day by day for it has enough for us. None of us are capable of these answers. I believe we need to stop trying and let god be in control I don't think that any prophet in the Old Testament or the disciples were asking god about the future or trying to fathom the future. Future telling is not of god. They were in gods presence and the he chose to reveal some plans for future times not to be always understood. The book of Daniel is clear it has a seal on the prophesy til a time. I think that Jesus didn't teach out of the prophesies to reveal something to those who heard him preach if the son of god left prophesy alone why don't we do the same. Man is still trying to be like god as he was after the fall and needs to know everything it's sin. We must remember we are saved by grace and called to humility know gods word it is enough there are not enough sheep in this time. Our command is to love god and love each other and by this we are fulfilling all the law of the prophets. Jesus own words. Be blessed body of Christ rest in him.
Therese, your comment about loving God is spot on. However, there is a struggle I have, when we love someone or thing, what are we supposed to naturally be inclined to do? We're supposed to want to learn about that person or thing and do things to make them happy (or operate more smoothly in the case of a thing). I find that I'm not always inclined to learn about Jesus, maybe because He's not changing, maybe because I can't see Him, but ought we not be trying to learn about Him and what He wants daily? I feel convicted in this area and it's my struggle.
As far as prophecy is concerned, I think you may have gotten ahead of yourself in making the argument for loving God. One of the proofs of the Bible's validity is prophecy, or foretelling of future events. The Bible is better at this than any other source known. It was the Disciples themselves who asked Jesus about the end times and how they could know. I agree that we get to caught up in it and invent theories, like the rapture, to explain things, but we should want for Jesus to come back. I think of when I was young and I wanted my Dad to come home, sometimes I would look out the window for approaching lights. When we want something to happen, we want to see signs before it actually arrives because we're anticipating it.
The conclusion of the matter, as I see it, is we should all study our Bibles and all seek truth. Let the spirit convict each of us as to what truths we want to find personally and pursue those while we eagerly await our Lord's return. I know that's what I will attempt to do, and I'd invite everyone to do the same.
I was bought up to believe in pre tribulation, had no question of its validity, just took it as fact. After hearing this spoke on a couple of times, I am shocked and scratching my head wondering why not one person ever raised an argument all these years, because, there is no mention of a pre tribulation anywhere in the bible, "wow", now why did I assume or for some reason really believe "pre-trib" was biblical I just knew there was scripture on that. But with out scripture I can't accept that as anything but someones theories, not a biblical promise. I'm so happy I finally saw this. I am 52 years old how did I go these years without so much as a discussion about this… Anyway, which ever it is, my hope and prayer is for all people to experience God's truth, and his ever lasting love for us. I love you all through the Lord, Jesus Christ. Lisa
I am a born again christian and cannot understand how people don't read and find the truth. I have always been unpopular because I never believed pre trib although the people I have been around do my problem is I do read my bible uh oh. Seriously i scratch my head that so many people can be mislead.
I'm curious. I've been a bible scholar my entire life, using the bible AND the bible ONLY!
I run across all sort varying beliefs/misbeliefs and am wondering, your statement that you're reading scripture as well…not following anyone's teaching….so I'd like to know if you've come to conclusions on your own as to what the bible teaches, OR are you following popular teachings that are far from biblical truth.
You don't need to answer me as our salvation is a personal journey between you and God.
#1: do you believe in an ever burning hell where people spend eternity, suffering forever…for their few years of sins…let say a young kid who loved the Lord but got lead astray when he was 18…then a week later he was killed, died while sinning. Would a loving God burn this man forever…and ever…and ever?
Making him immortal if one lives burning in hell forever, not a good life, but still alive…but scripture teaches otherwise…only God has immortality…. So who's wrong?
#2: When someone dies, do they go to their reward…if saved, they go to heaven…don't sleep in the grave like Gods word says…..many times the bible tells about the state of the dead.
what do you do with scripture that says "The dead know not anything…they sleep, do not praise…" how does one get around these verses?
When Jesus's friend Lazarus died….we know he was a Godly man and was saved….Jesus went to his tomb and called "Lazarus…come forth"…not come down or come back….do you think a man would want to come back to planet earth when you're in heaven? Lazarus was asleep, NOT in Heaven!
#3: Do you keep the 7th Day Sabbath?
Just as Jesus did His entire life AND during the time He was on earth after He arose from the grave, Jesus kept the 7th Day Sabbath, Holy.
The 7th Day Sabbath was Hollowed, Sanctified by God at the time of creation.
God wrote with His own finger the 10 commandments on the two tablets @ Mt Sinai.
God wrote "Remember the Sabbath DAY to keep it holy"…
what this tell us is to remember, that He created THE day of rest in the very beginning/creation of Planet Earth.
These 2 tablets held Gods 10 commandments.
The 1st four commandments were written on one tablet and pertains to our relationship with God.
The 2nd tablet had the other 6 commandments, all pertaining to dealing with others.
When God wrote kept by both Jews and Christians…until 700 years after Jesus death, the Catholic church changed the day of worship claiming they have power to change Gods laws.
The reason they changed to Sunday worship is because had millions of pagan sun worshipers who worshiped on Sunday.
Some Christians misinterpret/ misunderstand scripture when bile says "Day of the Lord….believing it meant a Sabbath day, but what it really means, The Day of the Lord is referring to Jesus 2nd coming
And not Sunday in celebration of His rising from His grave on 1st day of the week…
is not the Sabbath Day. WHY did Jesus keep the 7th Day Sabbath Holy during the 40 days He was here on earth? Shouldn't we do as He did, not as man says?
Responses: #1 — Yes, a person will be burning forever in the Lake of Fire. The problem you are having is that you are seeing this from man's perspective from a time-bound Earth and not from God's perspective in eternity. On Earth, when you light a flame on a stove and you put your hand in it, you get burned. Do you blame the flame for burning you? Of course not! Why not? Well, it is the nature of flames to burn things that they come in contact with. What we know about God is that He hates sin. He does not want it in His presence. His righteousness and justice demand punishment for sin. Also, He is (as are we) eternal — so punishment must be eternal. Like the flame mentioned before, you don't blame God — it is the way that He is. You also have another problem blocking your thinking — the problem of "being used to sin" around you. Yes, we all sin — we are in the muck together. Even the best of us is filthy to a pure sinless being. Just one sin sent Satan and his demons to an eternity without God in the Lake of Fire. Sure, they have committed more since then, but that was enough. When you start judging that this sin shouldn't send you to hell, but that one should, you miss the point.
#2 This one has been answered over and over for generations, but I will repeat it: When a Christian dies, they go immediately to Heaven. Their body is dead, but appears to be asleep — from whose perspective? From people who are living on Earth still. Does the sun really set? No, but we know what it means. There is no soul sleep.
#3 Sabbaths/Sunday — debate: it is up to each individual believer what they want to do. Paul said that one believer can celebrate this holiday and another not. The point is to worship God — the day is not important. Remember what the Lord said to the woman at the well — The Father wants those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth.
The problem is everyone wants to be right. However someone will be wrong. I just want to say this if we love The Lord Jesus it truly doesn't matter when he returns we are his and will be with him
I know for sure we will be taken before the tribulation. The holy spirit is God and he is in every believer. Since he is God he has to be removed before the tribulation begins because he can not go through his own wrath. If he then leaves he has to take us with him because without him dwelling inside of us, we would be like everyone else who is not saved. He is the one that conforms our life everyday to be more like Christ was and without him we would be nothing. The bible says we will be saved from the hour of testing. The tribulation is for the Jews only to bring them to Christ through the kingdom. The church age is almost over. This is the only time period where all people can come to the Father and be forgiven. After the church leaves, it is for the Jews. Also everyone forgets about the strong lie that will be sent that says if we were still here, we would believe it. The people that will be raptured no one will really miss because we are not of the world. Keep looking up, our redemption draws near Brothers and Sisters! Peace to you all in Christ Jesus!
that's pantheism….believing God is in everything…is NOT what my bible says!
The tribulation is Satans Wrath, not until the last seven vials are poured out is Gods Wrath witnessed. Therefore, we Christians WILL be here for Satans wrath (tribulation). Why do Americans refuse to believe the persecution that is taking place all over the world towards Christians? We have turned our backs on God and are an apostate country so our protection is over. The Lord will snatch us away but not until AFTER the tribulation of those days. It's very clear in the scriptures. Read Matthew 24: 29-31.
Why is every one calling it Satin's Wrath? it is God's Wrath.
I just wrote that very thing to many people on this post. We will be here, you are right. They have been told and they have believed that they are going to be "out of here". Most won't even listen or discuss the topic cause they say, "I'm not wasting my time as I don't plan to be here. There is (as you know) no escape route. They are hearing a "feel good gospel", the gospel that says, "You all have nothing to worry about". These Christians won't be prepare at all for what is coming, and they will meet their own fate. Scripture plainly says, those who persevere until the end will be saved. The end is not the beginning of the tribulation. Satan's wrath and then GOD's wrath in that order. We will suffer, the Bible says that the Antichrist will make war with the saints. How would he do that if they had been raptured out prior to his appearing. They are unfortunately asleep, they are not paying attention. They are deceived and Satan is loving it.
Please read carefully revelation.3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently. I will also keep you "From the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world" to test those who live on the earth. Now as we all know our lord comes twice . The first time he do not set his feet on earth but he will be in the air when he calls those who sleep and was born again in his name in their life time and then those of us who are still alive that is born again in his name will be caught up after the dead that's when we will be given our new holy bodies . The second time jesus come is the second coming of jesus as king of kings and lord of lords . This is the time he will set his feet on earth . The first time when we meet him in the air and be with him forever and forever 1Thess.4:13-18 .We return with our lord when he comes to rule for a 1000 years and that's at the end of the 7year tribulation . Jesus said he will keep his church out of he did'nt say he will take his church through the tribulation hour. We must not forget our lord comes to get the dead in him and those who are alive in him that is not the second coming of our lord he don't set his feet on earth this time . So my point is there is a caught up which is the church that's right before the tribulation . The second coming is at the end of the 7year tribulation .
Beloved, I'm sure we can agree that the same writer who penned 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, also wrote 1 Cor. 15:52 correct? I'm referring to the apostle Paul as he was inspired by the Holy Ghost. Also I believe we can agree that both verses are referring to the same event, yes? In Thess., we are told that "the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Now if, as you say, the Lord doesn't set foot on the planet for another seven years beyond this point, at which time He shall come literally to the earth, then we have a problem. For in Paul's description of the same event found in 1 Cor. 15:52, we read, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Notice that Paul said "at the last trump". So as students of the written Word, we MUST conclude that when the dead in Christ are raised, and living believers are changed from mortal to immortal, it will be at the sounding of the last trumpet. So in order to learn when the last trumpet will sound, we have two scripture references. Both passages are given by Jesus Himself – one was written by Matthew, the other by John. Matthew 24:29-31 reads, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Once again, we read of the sounding of a trumpet. We already know that the rapture occurs at the last trumpet, so we know that the trumpet referred to here cannot be after the rapture's trumpet, for that will be the last trumpet. So we can now conclude that the rapture will be "immediately after the tribulation of those days." This is confirmed in the Revelation of Jesus Christ to John, in Rev. 11:15-19: (This is the last of the seven trumpet judgments.) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." This is the actual account of the 'last trumpet' as recorded by John, and as referred to by Paul in 1 Thess. 4:16-17; and 1 Cor. 15:52, and Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31. Does this passage not describe all the things that we've been taught will take place at the rapture? First of all, the elders are praising God, and they say in verse 18, that God's wrath has come, so we're taken out before the wrath of God. Verse 18 also tells us that the time for God's judgment has come, and time for rewarding the servants of God, His prophets, and the saints, and all who fear His name, both small and great. Doesn't that take place at the rapture? There are other proofs if you're interested.
HUBB52: Oh mercy, Amen over and over again. You are stealing my thought, the scriptures as plain truth and the gospel that is not watered down in your reply here. I have said "this very same thing" to people on this post. If they print any of my comments you will see that I am believing "exactly" what you are saying here. The church is not appointed to the "wrath of GOD", which are the last 7 judgments, but they are appointed to the wrath of Satan which are the first 14 and the sad part is they don't know it, they don't believe it and they are deceived to a point of no return. They are spiritually blind and that is so sad. I have a neighbor that I tried to talk to and he will not listen to anything. He's going to be "out of here". He isn't going to have to suffer, he will be "called up" and he will be in heaven he tells me before the tribulation, before the mark of the beast, before the poop hits the fan he will be long gone.
I do believe we live for such a time as this to spread the word, to warn the masses of people who are so blindly going down the path of destruction.
Only the ones that make it to the end will be saved, isn't that what it says?
Thank you so much for telling the truth, as it's the truth that will set them free, IF they will only heed.
most Christians aren't aware that the word "RAPTURE" is NOT in the Holy Bible!….show me! And I'll give you a humungous reward!
The "Elect" spoken of here is the Jewish Nations after the Church has already been raptured out earlier.
Hubb52, What does matthew 24:30 say? It says all the tribes of the earth will MOURN, other translations say, all the peoples of the earth will weep, the whole world will mourn etc. Now if the church and if your a born again Christian you are in Jesus' church right? If the church goes thru thre trib and U Hubb make it to see Christ's 2nd coming. Are U going to mourn when U see Christ? or will U jump up and down with joy, glad to see him. Going thru the worst time in human history I would be shouting my lungs out with joy and gladness to see Jesus not mourn. In Rev.19:1-10 it shows that the marriage supper of the lamb will occur and it's in Heaven. So if your a Christian and belong to the church how will Jesus marry His church when ( according to U Hubb we are still here on earth going thru thru trib.) it's still on earth? We will miss the reception and we're the bride. So how can this be. There in Rev. verse 4 the 24 elders are in heaven, so if we're here on earth and Jesus is in heaven how will this marriage happen when people like U believe the church will go thru the trib, how can this happen. The marraige supper won't happen in the kingdom, it's in heaven, so we must be raptured to be in heaven and partiake the marriage. Plus U are in a matter of speaking saying that Jesus doesn't have it right but U do. Plus if the church is here with the son of perdition aka the antichrist U need to take the mark or get your head chopped off and if the whole church gets their heads chopped off then who will Jesus rapture? If we go by what U say then U make Peaul the Apostle and Jesus liar's in what they wrote in scripture. And how about the secret of what Jesus said that no man know's the day or the hour, that goes right out the window because the Prophet Daniel gave us the clue that Jesus said that not even He knew but the Father alone. At the abomonation of desolation it will be 3 and 1/2 years and Jesus will return, Daniel said 1260 days. So tell about these facts Hubb. In Matthew 24 :31 my NASB version it says with a great trumpet and does not say the last trumpet. Only in ICor. 15 :52 does it say the last trumpet. In Rev 19:11-21 it would mention the rapture, but no rapture. Plus why would Jesus rapture the church when most if not all are dead and why would rapturing the church ( if any are left) make any sense when Jesus is coming down to Earth to set up his Kingdom. It would be like say Your coming back from military service and your wife could not meet U at the Airport but had a rent a car left in the parking lot for U so you could come home and when U got home U stopped in front of your house, went in your house and told your wife and kids to get in the car in front of your house and when they all got in U drove the car right into your driveway and then had them all get out and then greet them. That would be a stupid idea to do that and I think that Jesus is way smarter than to do something like that, it would rediculous to rapture when your coming down to earth, what's the purpose for a rapture then. It wouldn't be necessary, why? Rev.11 15-19 Look what it says, time for the dead to be judged, since when will the dead in Christ be judged as in I Thess. 4:16. In Rev 11 :18 it says for the dead ( not in Christ) to be judged, that will only happen at the white throne judgement. So what dead are these? in Rev. 11:16. This here is only talking about Chrits's reign foreseen, not a rapture. And Matthew 24 31 doesn't mean that these Angels sent forth are the Angels with the 7 trumpets of the prior chapters. Plus The elect here is not the church it's Israel, for the 7 year trib is for Israel and not the church as told by the prophet Daniel, Jacob's troubles aka the 70th week of Daniel. The church didn't exist then at the time of Daniel. the trib is for the Israel not the church. So how are we Christians gonna servive the antichrist's wrath Hubb? Paul said in I Thess. 4:18 to comfort one another with these words. How could Paul insult the church this way? How do U find comfort in being be-headed and dying. I think he would've warned us instead as Jesus did the Apostles in Mattew 24 don't U think.? Pre-trib fits best, but it will happen only the way God knows, we can only guess the best that we can with what the bible says.
Yeah and if we see the peace treaty signed then seven years goes by then we could figure out the day Jesus comes back. That goes against Scripture saying who knows the day and hour. If we know that much then we all could backslide get by with sinning with the rest of the world and the last week before he comes we can straighten our lives up for Jesus! Praise GOD for Pre-trib Rapture!
I 100% agree with your post that "immediately AFTER the tribulation will come the rapture" most people are being taught of a Pre trib rapture and are mistaking Satans wrath and the tribulation as Gods wrath. We have to allow the bible to be it's own dictionary. And time and time again the bible says after the tirb. will be the rapture. There are 22 times that tribulation is mentioned in the bible. 2nd Thess ch. 2: 1-3 says it again ..
When does the final trump sound? Before tribulation, halfway through tribulation or after the tribulation? What happens after the final tribulation and the rapture? I've been told that the church will be raptured before tribulation but I believe it will happen sometime after tribulation begins, more like at the three and a half year mark possibly. Thank you.
Kelly: When does the last trumpet sound? Revelation talks about seal judgments and trumpet judgments and there is an angel there that is in charge of blowing the 7th and last trumpet and that is it. You are correct. The seal and trumpet judgments will be from Satan and then the church is removed. JESUS comes at that point and takes possession of the earth from the evil one (satan). Then after the church is out of here with the LORD then the last 7 judgments will come on the earth, they are called the bowl/vial judgments. Read it for yourself in Revelation. You will see that JESUS comes at the end of that 7th trumpet. Many do not believe it, but that does not mean it's not true. The masses of people are always wrong. People are deceived. JESUS said, "My people perish for lack of knowledge". Yes, and we don't study and pray fro the knowledge and the wisdom to understand the word. When we find out the real truth we will be equipped to tell it to others before it's too late and pray that they listen. Bless you.
I have read that for the 3 & one 1/2 year mark into The Tribulation one shall overcome a mortal wound that seemed impossible. He will be indwelt by the AntiChrist & will be the Abomination of Desolation the moment he enters the Holy of Holies in the rebuilt Solomon's Temple. This also the time when the 2 Witnesses, after preaching for 3 and one 1/2 years on the Temple steps will be killed by the Beast & lay there for 3 days before coming back to life & Ascending to Heaven. At Jesus's 2nd Coming know this: There will be an awful Earthquake in in Israel killing at least 7000. Jesus's feet will be on the Mount of Olives which shall move from North toSSouth & shall split from East to West. Many of God's people who trapped in the city shall escape by this newly made route that Jesus made. Then The Great Tribulation will be the remaining 3 and one 1/2 years of the time of The Tribulation.After that: The 2nd Death or The Great White Throne Judgement. Satan, his minions & non believersaareccast to hell. Christ & his believers rule the Earth with no Evil present for 1000 years to save the souls of people who never had the chance to be saved or whoncame to Christ during the Tribulation will& their offspring of the 1000 year time frame. Satan shall be loosed for the Final time & only a short time to try to corrupt these souls. Then it's finally over for him & whoever is left will be with Jesus forever. Before Christians go to Heaven there will be The Marriage Supper.
The last trumpet will sound after the tribulation. At that time Jesus will gather His church, return to the earth, and establish His kingdom on the earth for 1,000 years. God bless.
Where is "Rapture " mentioned in the Bible ?
It,s not; the word used in the bible is two words, it's called a "catching away." It comes from an old Latin word, "raptura," and it means "to be snatched away.
and please show us where it says will be SECRET….
Ah, good to see that someone believes that the mid-trib rapture is most scripturally accurate! We are not called unto God's wrath, so when that bowl of wrath is poured out, we will not be subject to it. What breaks my heart is all the years I've heard preachers stick with the pre-trib understanding, and so many will be unprepared and shocked and possibly even blame God for it.
Scoopie: This is the second time I have commented on what you wrote. Yes, after the trumpet judgments but before the bowls (the wrath of GOD) is biblical. We are not appointed to the wrath of GOD. We won't be here for it, but prior to it we will be here. The people will be unprepared and shocked and they will certainly blame the pastors of their churches and yes even GOD and 'THIS IS WHAT CAUSES THE GREAT FALLING AWAY OF THE CHURCH". And if you recall that is one of the things that "must" happen before JESUS comes for the bride of CHRIST. The other thing that "must" happen is that the Antichrist must come.
These unaware Christians are spiritually blind. Satan has them blinded to the truth of the word of GOD and they are not unfortunately able to see the truth that will set them free. The scriptures tell us that many will be deceived and will only listen to false preachers and will only hear what their itching ears want to hear and nothing more. What can we do? I always knew that we could lead a horse to water, but we can't make it drink.
I always believed we were raptured before trouble/great tribulation until I realized that if we rise at his coming, and He comes at the last trump, which is after tribulation – then we must go up at the end of the 7 years/tribulation. I don't see how we can get around it. I'm sure not happy about it.
Please believe me im a god fearing young man and have no reason to lie this was not a dream this was broad daylight I promise the lord is on his way.
Rejoice my brothers and sister hes coming to not only (rapture) but deliver us from evil. Amen
Im also only 20 im still young and for me to even be alive is ridiculous cause medically im suppose to be dead
I was in a car wreck 2 weeks ago and I saw an extremely bright light so bright that the capillaries in my eyes exploded and all I could do was stare at the beauty of it and then I was asked 2 questions
1. Do you belive what you hear or what you see
I was litterally looking at bright light that spoke to me and I said I believe in what I see because what I saw was not man made I promise.
If you want your soul to not be condemned please repent and live right. Thank you and god bless everyone who believes and those who do not, I pray that god has mercy on your souls
I also have medical proof from jps
Stating this all happend in arlington tx.
I believe that the Christian will not go through this hour of trying the people that are on earth at this time and the four horse are about to ride in this world, white horse, red horse, black horse, the pale horse.
I believe that the Christ will not go through the great tribulation because God will take out the world we not go through the tribulation period.
who do you believe the elect is ?
What part of Matthew 24:36 do you not understand? "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."
So, how can we sit here and predict anything?
Literally speaking, NO, we don't know the day or hour, but do we need to know that? The scriptures give us all that we need to know. They tell us the approximate time frame of JESUS return. They give us all the signs of the times, and what to watch for etc. Not knowing the day or the hour is not an issue, preparing physically, mentally and spiritually is the key to everything. Knowing the truth and not being so deceived as most people are is another key and knowing what to look for and how to persevere until the end is yet another key. GOD is putting the final pieces together on his puzzle and he will return sooner than most of us think.
If you'll read the Genesis account of the flood, you'll see that those that were "taken" by the flood were the ones that were NOT living in accordance with God's will. Those that were left behind were the "saints".
In the New Testament, the prophecy of the two men working on the roof of the house where one is "taken" and the other is not, the prediction is that the latter event will be likewise to the former. Thus, the man that is taken is the sinner, not the obedient Christian. So, there is no such thing as a "tribulation" other than the two thousand years of persecution that have passed since the death of Christ. Further, if the Christians are taken in a so-called rapture event, then who is left to teach the Word to those left behind? Read your Bibles, people! Reach your own conclusions, and don't let someone who is making his living by milking your sensitivities tell you what it means. I suggest that the reader ponder Eph. 4:5, and discover what it means in this modern world of Baskin-Robins 51 Flavors of Religion.
First of all at the flood Genisis 6:9 says "Noah was perfect in his generations" the Hebrew translation of perfect is "genetically sound" it's not that he was without sin it was that his blood line was not corrupted.
Genesis 6:2 and the Sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose. Ok the Sons of God are Angels (and in Gen. 6:2 they are the Fallen Angels) remember Jesus referred to himself as Son of Man! The first time the bible mentions the coming of Jesus was in the garden of Eden. (Gen. 3:15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. So further down (Gen. 5) The Book of the Generations of Adam… It tells the "Genetically Sound Bloodline" of Adam. So you can follow along from Adam to Noah .. (then the flood happens) Why the flood? Because the rest of the world was corrupted… (Gen.6:7) And the lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. So Re-cap.. Prophesy of Jesus in the garden of Eden, bloodlines shown in the bible from Adam to Noah. And God wanting to repent that he made man, beast, creeping thing, and fowl! Well if Man wasn't aligned with God then why did he almost repent making the animals also? Good Question. Because in Eden when God puts enmity between Eve and the Serpent, Satan at that point knew that now a Savior was coming… Jesus.! He had a long long time to figure out a plan and try to execute it to prevent Jesus from coming. So in Gen.6:2 the Fallen Angels come down ( which are able to manifest themselves to what ever they want to be.) and took wives of which they chose. So not only did they corrupt man, but everything else as well. That's why God wanted to repent of it all! Not just man but everything! So Noah was perfect in his generations "genetically sound" the bible states "there is nothing new under the sun" what we are seeing today is not new to God! Think of the days of Noah and Lot! (Luke17:26) and as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man. Look at today's food "GMO's" our food is genetically modified,(chicken,pork, beef, ect.) it's no longer 100% "perfect in it's generations." We have goats "genetically merged" with spiders. For the sake of the goat producing silk from where it would be making milk from. There is nothing new under the sun! Only difference today is we are doing it in a lab! Allow the bible to be it's own dictionary! Let it fine itself, maybe then will it make better sense. (Mark 13:37) and what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. Jesus wasn't talking to just one group of people, he was talking to whole world. So pay attention look, and WATCH!
-God Bless-
God has always delivered His people from His judgement before it came. At the flood in Noah' time did He not deliver all of the righteous, which were Noah and his family, and when He destroyed the city of Sodom and Gamorrah did the angels tell Lot. who believed in God but was not living for Him, God could not judge the city until Lot and his family got out? God always takes His people away before He sends His judgement? Good or bad. all of them? We will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ and get our bad works burnt up, that will purify all of us. That is when we will be presented to Christ as His bride without spot or blemish. God will not put His own Son's bride through the great tribulation that shall come upon all the earth for unbelievers. The tribulation is the last 7 years, called Jacob's trouble, and is determined on the Jews and Jerusalem, not the church. The church began after the first 483 years determined upon Jews (Jewish time or the Law), and will be gone when the last 7 years of Jewish time starts. Then it will return back to Jewish time (the tribulation and Jews will start animal sacrifices back up again to go back under the Law). The church and Jewish time have never overlapped each other and never will, that is another reason why the church can not be here during the tribulation. People can still get saved in the tribulation but will be rare, most will keep on cursing God. All of Israel will be saved then when they see the anti-christ for who he really is, they will then know that Jesus is their Messiah. The people who do get saved in the tribulation will be called tribulation saints, not the church, don't get the tribulation saints confused with the church. The church is never mentioned again after chapter 4 of Revelation, the "come up hither" is spoke out in chapter 4. that is the calling up the church to heaven, you will never hear the church being referred to after that. I know John was being called up hither then but he was representing the whole church. That my friend was the rapture, and that was before he was shown all the things of the tribulation. I am going in the rapture and I am rest assured that will be before the tribulation, see you in heaven if you are a believer/
All I can say is it would be wonderful if you are right. I would rather go before than after. I don't believe we want to suffer, but then CHRIST didn't want to suffer either. John does not represent the entire church. GOD was talking directly to John and told John to "come up here and I will show you the things that are to be". He was only speaking to John not to the saved, not to the church, not to anyone but John.
Please understand that Revelation IS NOT written in chronological order, so what is or is not written after Chapter 4 has no bearing on what will happen. John was seeing visions of Heaven and Earth. He was being taken back and forth. It didn't happen in the order that it has been written…That changes everything does it not?
amen brother to pre-trib rapture
Just as all the details of our Lords' first coming were foretold in the scriptures so is the case for his second coming. I was a pre-trib rapture believer for many years until I discovered that the pre-trib rapture concept did not appear in church teaching until 1830 A.D.. It has been attributed to a man by the name of Edward Irving who was a priest in the Apostolic Catholic Church. That was an immediate reg flag for me for the following reasons. If this was true then what did the Apostles and the early Church fathers and the greatest preachers of the first nineteen centuries teach with regard to the rapture. If you do your homework you will find they all taught that the Church, not Jewish believers, would suffer the persecution of the anti-christ. That means the Church will be present until sometime after the "abomination of desolation" takes place exactly three and one half years into the trib. This begins the period of time known as the Great Tribulation or Satan's Wrath.
Second, if the pre-trib rapture were correct then that would mean that God the Holy Spirit, mislead the Apostles, early Church fathers and His greatest preachers about the Truth.
Any true Christian knows that can't be so pre-trib rapture is not supported by scripture. I believe it is the most popular position in evangelical America today because it teaches that you don't have to worry about anything bad happening to you as opposed to having to choose between taking the mark of the beast or be beheaded. For those of you who are true Truth seekers the biblicaly correct timing for the rapture is sometime after the first three and one half years during the period of Satan's wrath. It is called the pre-wrath position and I recommend you read "The Rapture Question Answered" by Robert Van Kampen. Very in depth on all the positions and why, based on scripture, this is the only position with no scriptural contradictions as the pre,mid,and post rapture positions have. The Spirit will convict you that this position is correct as He did for me. The fact that the majority of evangelical Christians in America believe in the pre-trib rapture is going to severely challenge their beliefs in the truth of God's Word because it didn't happen the way they were taught. They were and are being taught a lie and they will not be prepared, by Faith, for what lies ahead for the Church. I believe that this lie is why so many believers are not as serious about their walk with God. But when you know the "truth" it will drive you to your knees and seriously change your walk with God because you and I are going to need "great Faith" during the coming months or years left.
TOM: Hope you are still reading this post. I just read your comment and I agree 110%. People are deceived and therefore they will not be prepared mentally, physically, spiritually for what they will have to endure. Life as we know it will change and when they are still here even thought they didn't think they would be, they will be discouraged, disappointed, and even angry that they were lied to. They won't have time then to prepare for anything, it will be too late. Most are so deceived they won't listen to reason or to the "truth" of the matter. They will suffer for that, as they were stubborn and they were not told the truth. Many think they will be "out of here". Oh my, I used to think the same thing. Scripture does not support a pre-tribulation rapture of the church.
We won't be going anywhere until JESUS comes for us. He will open the graves and the saved will meet him in the air,(the ones that were asleep in their graves and the ones who were still alive), and the unsaved at that time will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming, and the unsaved that were in their graves will stay there for another 1,000 years until He comes back again to raise them up for judgment, the white throne judgment is at that time. All of GOD's children will go on ahead and attend the marriage supper of the lamb, amen.
The people want what their itching ears will let them hear, they crave that good ole' "feel good" gospel, as it is music to their ears. I pray they will wake up before it's too late for them.
Why do you believe in one part of the word and not the other? The Spirit should give you more wisdom to understand that Jesus promises his coming for the dead in Christ before the great tribulation. And those in Christ with faith and belief and a firm relationship will be caught up with them and HIM to escape the trials to come upon the entire earth! REV. 3:10
How are we are to prepare for the food and soon regulation of food Shortage!
I feel like the big ministries are going to have a lot of people not be ready for the hard times we are going to go through!
Agree, and smiling, feel so blessed that I have obtained this correction, after 52 years of being falsely taught, and accepting it as the truth, even thinking it was in the bible, love it whenever God's truth is revealed to me. I can't imagine the surprise and the confusion some will feel. May each of us seek and obey God's will and truth.
LISA: Just read your comment from May 5,2014. Are you still reading this post? Write me and I will send you forwards that I have on the truth of GOD's word. Not watered down, not diluted gospel but the real truth of the word. You said, "love it whenever GOD's truth is revealed to me". We must seek and obey GOD's will as when we know the truth, the truth will set us free. John 8:12.
As for the surprise and the confusion that people will feel when they find out they didn't get raptured before the tribulation, it will be the "great falling away", that the scriptures talk about. The great falling away and the man of sin (the antichrist) must happen first BEFORE JESUS comes back to take us home and open up the graves. It will be a major falling away when they learn that they were all lied to. GOD help them. Write me…firstname.lastname@example.com
I agree with you.
are you ready?
the only way you can be ready is to put your faith in Jesus and He will take care you.
in Rev.7:9-14 who are the people who came out of the great tribulation they are not the bride of Christ but were saved during the tribulation
Believers left behind not taken in the Resurrection/Rapture. These people will gain ground in a large revival most likely underground out of the spotlight in fear of the persecution going on at that time. Many will be sealed, martyred and reach the end when the tares and wheat are separated. I feel when someone doesn't believe in the catching away of the Church,
there must be a desire to go through the tribulation where without the Lords presence, people are gonna want to die. Think about it! The Church presence gone the age of the anti-Christ will prevail and the false Church holds religious power, those left will be deceived over and over. Thank God! There will be a remnant in Israel and believers, look at all the material on Christianity left here for believers to distribute. That's hope for those that want to stay behind. I want to see all brothers and sisters in Christ to escape, because that is the hope that has been taught from the apostles and the Church through the centuries. Not since John Darby!
When I read the Bible, it keeps seeming that the Rapture and the second coming are two different events. The second coming is preceded by certain events. The rapture sounds like it does not have anything preceding it and makes its coming like a thief in the night. It also seems as if the new testament speaks about them similarly. However, we are to comfort one another with the rapture and not so with the second coming.
Cynthia Brown–I agree. I believe the rapture is when the believers are 'caught up' in the clouds and are with Christ…but Christ doesn't actually return to earth then…He is simply taking His church out of it. The second coming of Christ is after the tribulation…when Christ comes back, speaks the word….and evil is defeated.
There is no such this as a rapture in our future.
Jeff–if you are a Christian, no matter if you believe in a pre/mid or post tribulation 'rapture'…it WILL happen
The Rapture will be pre trib. We are very close to something really really big. Be prepared for the alien Vatican connection google this up. The Rapture will be blamed on a alien abduction. Don't laugh google. Lastly ET s are demons. Google blood moons and be shocked and get ready Jesus is Coming Sooooon.
I agree it will come sooner than most think. yes, in the past people thought to be in the generation of the rapture, only they weren't in the time of ALL things happening. We are in these times of all things…we shall see this in our times. God doesn't just spring it on us, he didn't with Noah, why would he with us believers? he gives signs and if u read and pay attention you will know the season. in Hebrew in the day of Jesus their idiom (kind of like I scratch your back u scratch mine…we know what that means but you say that to a Jewish man he will say don't touch me) the phrase "don't know the time or season" was when they were in the trumpets of feast, at the last trumpet you were done. The Hebrew calendar starts when the moon has a eclipse but they never knew the time or hour of when their calendar started as they didn't know when the eclipse would come. so they would say that phrase(idiom). I believe at the last trumpet of the feast…is the time it will come about. and with our blood moons…how is this blinded. but after all is said and done…as long as you are saved. do not be afraid. we will be in a place of great things. leave a letter…make a video for your lost loved ones so they can too join us after 7 years. I am simply doing that. I can only hope they listen. god bless u all.
I agree
We talk more about the blood moons at http://www.endtime.com/four-blood-moons/
My only question about the tribulation period, when Christ comes for his church, if it is during the actual 7 year tribulation, wouldn't we be able to do a count down to mid trib or post trib, after the fact. It says we will not no the time or the hour, so doesn't that tell us the church will be taken away at rapture, before the actual tribulation period?
I had 3 dreams on 2/9/09 that lines up with the Bible about what is to come. Just as I woke up I heard in my head, "Six Great things in the next eight years." I know this was the Holy Spirit.
Now, I get the feeling I am being lead to witness to my Jewish land lord at work, but I'm not sure how. Can you advise me? Thanks and God Bless,
go to sid roths website, he is a messianic jew , he has a book written specifically for jewish people, "They thought for themselves", it is the perfect witness tool for jews.
Christianity is 'Israel centric' and 'western centric'. We need to study the Bible in context of Israel/ Hebrew centric. The Feasts of the Lord (Levi