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Black spot on potted rose
Hi All~ I just received 2 own root potted "Ivor's Rose" mail order today and while the plants are huge with lots of new growth the bottom third of the bush's leaves are covered with black spot. I have read that it's very stressful for plants to ship, especially in the height of summer. Should I worry or just let the rose grow and see what happens? The new growth is healthy looking. Ivor's Rose is supposed to be very resistant to black spot so I'm wondering if this may just be due to stress from shipping from FL to MA.
Thanks for any insight or suggestions.
I ordered a Thomas Affleck in May from a vendor and the rose arrived with Blackspot. Thomas Affleck is suppose to be very disease resistant.
I planted it into the ground in Mid May and here in the latter part of July the rose still has BS and it's been slowly getting worse and worse.
And it's been battling PM also.
I had Mister Lincoln previously in that same location and he did not get BS. Nor does ML get BS in pots that I had/have him planted into. ML gets BS in a lot of other locations in the USA. So I'm shocked that he does so well here...
Maybe contact the vendor but they will probably tell you its common for roses to get BS during shipping.
But actually our Thomas Affleck was the first rose I ever got that had BS during shipping.
The only way your know if its going to be BS resistant in your area is to plant it and see what happens.
Maybe try some of Strawbhills ideas...
I spread some composted horse manure over top of Thomas Afflecks root system in early July but so far no luck in controlling the BS.
I'll have to do it earlier next year and see what happens...
This post was edited by jim1961 on Thu, Jul 24, 14 at 17:56
Hi Jim, thanks for the response. This came from a relatively new vendor that I thought I'd try. The roses are nice and big, were a great price and in stock. I have gotten roses before with a couple of spotted leaves but nothing like this.
I had read about your Thomas Affleck and didn't realize that your problems were getting worse instead of improving.
I wonder if I should repot and cut it back, I don't know if this would kill it though, or just watch for improvements before planting. About 1/2 the rose has healthy new growth but the bottom half is a mess. Should I strip the bs leaves that haven't yet fallen off from the plants?
All of my Heirloom roses are looking quite healthy, a couple older leaves might have bs but nothing serious.
I'll try contacting this vendor to see what they have to say. It's a shame because they do send a nice large plant, comparable to RU.
I have a few more roses coming from HR, hopefully these will be healthy.
It really seems to be a gamble when planting something as finicky as roses. KO's are okay but I was hoping to be able to grow some roses that actually have fragrance and gorgeous blooms.
As always, any advice is appreciated.
Hi Sharon and Jim: Black spot is contagious. I would REMOVE the BS leaves from Ivor's rose. The spores will fall down & germinate on the ground, to be splashed up to new leaves later.
Black spots grow when there's moisture or extreme humidity for more than 7 hours. Shipping in a closed container does just that. I'm impressed by Ivor's beauty and its disease-resistance: with both parents Bonica (Meilland French rose), and Roundlay (bred in U.S.) being disease-resistant.
I saw Bonica at the alkaline rose park ... tons of blooms despite our alkaline water. My hunch is Ivor's rose would do best in slightly alkaline medium, and potting soil doesn't have anti-fungal trace elements, nor being alkaline.
With regard to Jim's Thomas Affleck being a BS-magnet, that rose prefers alkaline and dry. It's parents are Carefree Beauty and Basyes Blueberry. I have Basyes Blueberry, it was bred in hot Texas to withstand drought and alkalinity. Carefree Beauty is bred to withstand drought. With such heritage, Thomas Affleck would NOT like Jim's soil pH of 6.5, and being wet with dew.
It's always good to buy roses being bred in a climate or soil similar to one's garden. French Romanticas love my dolomitic clay & hot and humid summer. Austin roses are wimpy in my clay at pH 7.7, unless I put gypsum to neutralize my pH, and use rain-barrel to water, rather than my alkaline tap water.
Hi Jim: thank you for that picture Thomas Affleck. I went and check the roses with black spot which I spread EnCap dry compost granules ($2 for 18 b.) .... I DID NOT bother to remove the infested old leaves. The new growth are 100% clean. The pH of Encap compost is same like my clay, at 7.7 .... at such high pH, black spot can't germinate. Plus the Encap dry granules on top repel water .. dry out fast.
That's different from sticky sticky alfalfa meal (pH 5.7), sticky Pennington pellets (pH 6) which are slightly acidic and remain wet longer ... perfect breeding ground for fungi.
I checked Frederic Mistral which I spread alkaline cow manure (some black wood ash, pH 7.5). Frederic Mistral became pale, but clean in the sun. The only part with B.S. is where it's against the wall, no sun & poor air-circulation.
My neighbor across the street asked me to water her garden while she's on vacation. Her tomatoes put mine to shame. She planted them into our alkaline clay, pH 7.7 ... their leaves are pale, but she has tons of ripe fruits (more fruits than leaves). In contrast, I fixed my soil with lots of MG potting soil (pH 6.5), my tomato have lots of dark-green leaves, but much less fruits.
When I spread gritty lime on Radio Times, which prefer alkaline: its leaves turn pale, but lots of buds. Some roses bloom better and are healthier at higher pH. Same with Crimson Glory hybrid tea, I spread gritty lime, it doubled in size, plus more buds. Then I saw a few droop leaves at temp above 90 .. plus it's next to a tree. So I put some gypsum (with 17% sulfur). It HATES that stuff, just like French Romantica roses ... leaves become MORE wilted, after I gave it rain water (pH 6).
Last summer the same happened with French Meilland Sweet Promise and Meilland Firefighter. Both became wilted with gypsum-watering. Roses that like it alkaline, dislike anything with sulfate (acidic sulfur). Gypsum has 21% calcium, and 17% sulfur.
Gritty lime is 100% calcium & pH 9, is useful for roses which prefer alkaline. Roses Unlimited is right in recommending 1 cup of gypsum, and 1 cup of lime to balance the peat moss (pH 4) added to the planting hole.
Below is Radio Times, pale & vigorous, with lots of buds. It's next to a tree, plus being invaded by tomatoes. I checked the bottom of the bush, very little BS, after I applied gritty lime (pH 9). No wilted leaves whatsoever, I don't even water that one.
As the pH drop below neutral to acidic range, less calcium and potassium are available ... I learn that from a University Extension site. That spot has loamy soil, from the roots of tree secreting acid, plus Radio Times' aggressive roots. Gritty lime worked there.
On the other hand, other wimpy own-roots in my heavy clay, HATES gritty lime ... the wimpy ones like Jude can't secret acid to utilize nutrients in soil, nor the calcium in ground limestone.
Hi Jim: with your climate's wet-dew on your roses overnight, plus rainfall, I would stay away from any roses which HMF describes as "drought-tolerant". Disease-resistant roses bred in England, where it's foggy and rainy would be best. They are: Tess of the d'ubervilles, Queen of Sweden, Lady of Shallot, Boscobel, Darcy Bussell.
My 2 cleanest roses now are: Christopher Marlowe and Pat Austin. Not a trace of B.S., after I put Encap dry compost granules ... I can't get horse manure this year, so compost is a good substitute. Those 2 are healthier at higher pH, but they can take wet leaves well. See Christopher Marlowe, picture taken today. It has been humid & rainy for the past month, zero B.S.
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Jul 25, 14 at 8:17
Hi Jim and Strawberry~ Thanks for all the info, suggestions and help. I'll remove the contaminated leaves and repot the roses. I have a local source for Encap so at least no mail order, this time :-). It was very hot and humid earlier in the week when this rose traveled up the eastern seaboard from FL to MA. I'm sure this didn't help.
Strawberry~ Thanks for the parentage info and the ph preference of this rose. It did sound like a gorgeous rose and has gotten excellent reviews at HMF so I thought I'd give it a try in an attempt to branch out from Austin roses. The potting soil I'm using is organic Vigoro which seems just slightly acidic when tested with red cabbage. One question on the cabbage test, for the coffee grounds, is this fresh or brewed? I need to have a good neutral indicator and the brewed coffee grounds I used last time just made a muddy mess.
Hi Sharon: The last time I tested coffee grounds, it was brewed from hubby's coffee machine. It took at least 1/2 hour for the solids to settle, and the above juice became clear, or neutral.
After 1/2 hour, Encap compost granules color was barely greenish in red-cabbage juice, and became almost clear with prolonged soaking. After testing Encap, I would say it's neutral pH, since it DID NOT make my roses pale like gritty lime. See below Barcelona (Francis Dubreuil) in a pot, topped with Encap compost. The result? no more mildew in a mildew-prone rose, leaves are not pale either.
Here's a close up of Souvenir du President Lincoln rose, band-size received from Heirloom Roses. I put dry Encap compost on all 5 bands ... zero diseases so far, including Madame Isaac Pereire (BS-prone). I had just watered that pot, and it's VERY HARD to get the granules wet ... they resist getting wet, which is great. Keeping surface dry and alkaline is best way to prevent pests (rose-slugs), and fungi from germination.
Here's the result of topping with bagged cow-manure from Menards (New Plant Life brand). I tested its pH, quite blue in red cabbage juice. But it made my Frederic Mistral VERY PALE. Let's see how the blooms turn out. I might have to exchange the left-over bag for Encap compost granules ($2 per 18 lbs. at Menards). The price on line is outrageously high, like $15, so I'll buy more bags from Menards.
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Jul 25, 14 at 8:41
Again, beautiful healthy roses and great info, Strawberryhill. I can get Encap from tractor supply but it's much more expensive than your source~$5 for a 7lb bag!! but if it clears up the bs it's worth it. Do you just spread a light coat on top?
Hi Sharon: My pots are overflowed, so I only use a light coat on top. I tested Encap compost granules in the planting hole, very happy. Band-size Sharifa Asma was getting blackspots in a hole which I put too much gypsum and acidic cracked corn. So I moved it elsewhere, and put 1/4 Encap granules and 3/4 native clay ... it sprouted clean leaves immediately. The growth is impressive, so is the health.
I also moved Comte de Chambord but I DID NOT put Encap granules in the planting hole. Its growth is very slow, plus new growth has black spots. Sharifa Asma has been more wimpy and stingy compared to Comte.
Like coffee grounds, Encap compost is a buffer ... it buffers the acidity of rain and the acid-phosphatase of roots. The color and texture of Encap compost is similar to Charles' Compost (dry compost with organic chicken manure, low-odor). I bought Charles' compost but haven't tried it yet. Will put it around Comte to see if that improves.
Chicken and swine manure are documented to be highest in zinc, copper, and boron. Zinc and copper are strong anti-fungal agents. Since Charles compost NPK is 0.5-0.4-0.5, I can use lots for trace elements, without worrying about burning. Will report the result with Charles compost later, I have 2 Comte de Chambord, both are BS fest after blooming.
Here is a link that might be useful: Charlies compost 10 lbs. for $18
Hi Strawberry, thanks again. Could used coffee grounds work? Encap is composted leaves, cow manure and soil. I wonder if a combo of this plus my wood ash would work for next year as a top dress?
How do you suppress weeds since you don't use mulch? I wonder if I used mulch mixed with wood ash if this would neutralize the acidity. Maybe I'll experiment for a change instead of always relying on you :-) and see how this works. I can try it with some of my less expensive roses. I have a pink drift that has quite a case of bs right now. It's worth a try before resorting to spraying.
Hi Sharon: Previous years of mulching with horse manure, very alkaline, at pH 8 .. killed weeds very well. Folks in CA use wood ash to kill weeds. My neighbor topped her lawn with top soil from Menards ... it sprouted tons of weeds. She told me the lawn company will spread lime to kill those weeds. I plan to use 150 lbs. of gritty lime which I got for free from the quarry nearby to kill weeds.
My Mom used wood ash for 30+ years in MI as the only source of fertilizer for her flowers in her 5 acres garden. In late fall she piled leaves up, then put wood ash on top, and let the acidic melted snow & rain LEACH OUT the salty lye of the wood ash into the leaves. The acidic leaves at pH 4 to 6 BUFFERED the extreme alkalinity of wood ash at pH over 10. Then she top-dress flowers with that final result.
Someone reported fixing rust on Austin rose Tradescant by dusting the ground with a thin layer of wood ash. No fungi can germinate on such extreme alkalinity at pH over 10. Plus a very thin layer of wood ash on top would neutralize the acidity of rain. Last year I had rust & was tempted to try that if I had access to wood ash .. my roses are buried so deep versus my Mom's shallow root perennial-flowers.
I'm testing cow-manure from Menards, it's pitch-black, indicative of some wood ash. Since that made my Frederic Mistral so pale, they probably put quick-lime to deodorize the stinky manure. Quick lime is the unstable calcium hydroxide in tap water ... my roses are very pale when watered with my hard-well, pH 8.3.
I would put a thin layer of wood ash ON TOP of thick mulch, and let the acidic rain wash that down. Rain and mulch would buffer wood ash's extreme salt and alkalinity. Sharon, please inform if Pink Drift becomes pale like my Fred with bagged cow manure.
If Fred becomes stingy again like he did with alkaline horse manure last year, I'll going to scrape off that bagged-cow-manure, and test Charlie's compost (folks report deep green with this). I found a cheaper source for Charles compost, 25 lb. for $21 ... hopefully I can find that at a feed store or garden center. Chickity doo-doo is too stinky to use near the house.
Here is a link that might be useful: Lawn Mowner and Gardening Tools
Hi Strawbhill and enchantedrose...
My main top goal is to locate roses that will get little to no Blackspot in my current native conditions without having to change anything.
Why? My wife has multiple sclerosis which right now is taking the sight in her right eye amoung causing her other health issues that come along with the disease.
If something were to happen to me my wife would not be able to keep the garden up unless things were more on the easier side.
And of course I would not be able to do much gardening if anything happened as I also have some health problems.
But I am trying and going to further try some ideas Strawberryhill gave me while I'm working on achieving my main goal...
Thanks Strawbhill!
Hi Jim: I'm praying for your wife everyday. I have the same goal as you & Sharon: grow healthy roses with the least work. Thus I experiment to save others time & money. Chickity-doo-doo NPK 5-3-2 in late fall, then spring has kept Austin roses compact .. no need for pruning. Even climbers like Golden Celebration stay 2.5 x 2.5', and messy Crown Princess Mag. stay short 3' x 5' wide.
I find that using sulfate of potash along with granular fertilizer help roses to bloom at the expense of growth. Milorganite NPK 5-2-0, plus sulfate of potash, is less stinky, but works well. I have much more blooms this year than previous years with alkaline horse manure.
See below link for a commercial rose fungicide made out of garlic. I'm too lazy to spray, so I'll find some permanent solution IN THE PLANTING hole, or throw easy stuff around roses.
My neighbor gave me garlic chives ... she makes the most delightful pot-stickers (ground pork, ginger, garlic chives, bok-choy)... so addictive. Those garlic chives are spreading in my garden, I kill them by the dozen. Next experiment will be stuffing those garlic chives in the planting hole. Sounds crazy, but it's cheap & free. =)!
Here is a link that might be useful: Rose fungicide made out of garlic
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Jul 25, 14 at 14:57
I'll probably keep Thomas Affleck through next year just to see if he improves any at all.
I'm just thinking out loud...lol
Anyhow they say Blackspot spores can over winter on rose canes. So it would make sense to spray the canes with something organic to try and kill the spores before the rose bush starts leafing out in the Spring...
But what would that be??? Sulfur?
Then apply fertilizer and top dress over that with horse manure or whatever. That should help suppress spores in the soil for awhile.?
Any thoughts?
Hi Jim: I appreciate your thinking through solutions to fight B.S. YOU HELP ME TREMENDOUSLY to realize the solution to problem. Three brains are better than one (Jim & Sharon & Straw). Let's start with the soil research, the work of Sweden and United Kingdom together: ""ABSTRACT: The influence of pH on the two principal decomposer groups in soil, fungi and bacteria, was investigated. This experimental location provides a uniform pH gradient, ranging from pH 8.3 to 4.0, within 180 m in a silty loam soil. .. The growth-based measurements revealed a fivefold decrease in bacterial growth and a fivefold increase in fungal growth with lower pH. .. Below pH 4.5 there was universal inhibition of all microbial variables."
That means as the pH increases to 8.3, there will be plenty of beneficial bacteria, and less pathogenic fungi. As the pH decreases toward 4.5, less bacteria to fix nitrogen, and more fungi like black spots, rust, and mildew. Below pH 4.5, too acidic, like cracked corn and peat moss, there won't be any bacteria nor fungi.
The above is true. When I spreaded gritty lime, pH 9.9, around Bolero (dark-green French rose that prefer alkaline) ... it broke out in new growth, thanks to an increase in nitrogen-fixing bacteria. Since Bolero root is efficient in acid-phosphatase, its acid helps to release calcium from gritty lime. Calcium is essential for growth, esp. maximizing nitrogen absorption, plus other nutrients.
I tried many foolish experiments to lower my alkaline tap water. Each time I lowered the pH, roses break out in fungal diseases. Like the time I put too much acid-fertilizer on Mary Magdalene, she got mildew. Or the time I put too much vinegar in my tap ... French Romantica roses' leaves became thinner and droopy in hot sun. Recently I tested cracked corn in tap water .... too much, too acidic, and induced black spots on a few roses.
Two years ago I lowered my tap with used lemons ... too acidic, with roses in pots breaking out in B.S. Same with gypsum (calcium sulfate with 17% sulfur) ... too much of that caused rust in a few roses. Why is that corn meal, at pH 4, and even lower when it's fermented work against fungi for some people?
It depends on one's soil and climate. Corn meal worked great on Frederic Mistral last year, because my soil is rock-hard alkaline clay, pH 7.7. Being acidic, corn meal released the calcium-bind-up with potassium and phosphorus at high pH. So Fred became dark-green, thicker leaves with released calcium & potassium, and healthier.
In contrast, when I threw corn meal in an acidic potting soil, corn meal, at pH 4, LOWERED the pH medium to BELOW NEUTRAL, and rose in pot broke out in black spot. When the leaves absorb acidic water, be it from East coast rain water at pH 5.6, or my putting too much used lemon, vinegar, gypsum, or cracked corn in my tap ... then the leaves are at slightly acidic pH, perfect for breaking out in black spots
It depends on one's soil and climate, plus the particular rose. Take my neighbor's many Knock-outs grafted on Dr. Huey: she used the same Menards' bagged cow-manure. I marveled at her roses: shiny leaves, dark green, so healthy. But when I use that same bagged cow-manure on OWN-ROOT Frederic Mistral, he became pale. Why? the alkaline cow-manure buffers Dr. Huey's extreme acid-phosphatase, but that same cow-manure is too alkaline for Frederic Mistral, which is wimpier as own-root.
The solution to black spot is to see how acidic the medium is, be it one's soil, rain water or tap, and how much a particular rose secrets acid. Then give a BUFFERING AGENT to neutralize that acid which cause diseases. That buffering might be gritty lime for an aggressive root near a tree ... both tree root, and the rose's own root secret acid like my Radio Times.
For wimpy own-root that secret less acid, a better buffering system is Encap Compost granules, which is slightly alkaline, but supplies trace elements to keep roses dark-green.
My next experiment is to find a buffering agent that has the highest anti-fungal trace-elements of zinc, copper, and selenium, plus calcium. I'm looking into using leaves like garlic chives for the planting hole. My pH 7.7 clay is a good buffering system, but it's too heavy for best root growth. Cracked corn in the planting hole in late fall was a big success with own-root Austins: made the soil more fluffy, thus roses are more efficient in acid-phosphatase. Golden Celebration, W.S. 2000, Jude the Obscure, Eglantyne were once stingy, but now are continuous bloomers.
Hi Jim & Sharon: I stopped the Brewer's Yeast experiment on my roses since I'm hogging that stuff for myself. I like the energy it gives so I'm taking it everyday. There's only one rose that is NOT blooming, an old-garden rose, which I try Brewer's yeast next. It was recently transplanted & need some wait-time for recuperation.
All my roses are blooming well with sulfate of potash & fertilizers, thus no point of wasting Brewer's yeast on them. Garlic chives are invasive in my garden, so I put that to beneficial use. Its nutrients are impressive, both for humans, and possibly to fight against fungal diseases, see link below:
"Garlic Chives are converted to allicin by enzymatic reaction when its leaves disrupted (crushing, cutting, etc.). Studies show that allicin reduces cholesterol production ... it also found to have anti-bacterial, anti-viral, and anti-fungal activities."
"allicin also decreases blood vessel stiffness ... help brings a reduction in the total blood pressure .. also helps to decrease coronary artery disease (CAD), peripheral vascular diseases (PVD), and stroke."
◾Chives surprisingly comprise more vitamin A than any other allium family member vegetables. 100 g of fresh leaves contain 4353 IU of vitamin-A or 145% of daily recommended levels. In addition, the green leaves contain other flavonoid-phenolic antioxidants such as carotenes, zea-xanthin, and lutein. Together, these compounds offer the human body protect from lung and oral cavity cancers.
◾They also have some other essential vitamins such as vitamin C, and K, in fact; chives are one of the richest sources of vitamin K. Vitamin K has a potential role in bone health by promoting osteotrophic (bone formation and strengthening) activity. Adequate vitamin-K levels in the diet help limiting neuronal damage in the brain; thus, has a role in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease.
Garlic chives' leaves are packed with other B-complex vitamins as well as copper, iron, manganese, zinc, and calcium. The leafy greens contain several vital vitamins such as pyridoxine, pantothenic acid, niacin, riboflavin, and thiamin in healthy proportions."
Another link livestrong.com gives this info: "chives also have antibacterial capabilities that kill at least 30 strains of salmonella, which can cause intense digestive problems.
Just 1 tbsp. of chives supplies many vitamins and minerals, including 9 mg of potassium, 3 mg of calcium, 78 mcg of beta-carotene, 3 mcg of folic acid and 6 mcg of vitamin K. Chives also supply lesser amounts of magnesium, iron and trace amounts of several B vitamins.
**** from Straw: vitamin C is essential for plant's growth. I have tons of garlic chives here. Garlic chives in planting hole might be as good as alfalfa meal, plus it won't glue up with my heavy clay. I hope for that "shiny-luster" and vigorous growth in roses. Will make pot-sticker this weekend for my kid with garlic chives. Hopefully mine turn out be just as good as my neighbor's.
Here is a link that might be useful: Nutritional profile of garlic chives
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Jul 25, 14 at 23:31
Thanks for all the info Strawberry hill! Much appreciated!
But I still have questions in my mind...lol
Our Thomas Affleck has BS and PM right now.
So spores probably will overwinter on his canes which will then infect next years leaves.
Wonder if any organic sprays/oils would be effective to kill those spores on its canes if applied before leaf out occurs in early Spring?
And with our 6.5 PH soil what would be the most effective type of mulch to use?
I'm not worried about our Double Ko's as the homemade compost I use has their leaves looking great and they are blooming well.
Double Ko's could care less about how wet their leaves get or how long they stay wet. They seem to shrug off diseases by themselves here. So do Carefree Sunshine roses...
BUT Thomas Affleck is having disease fits with the compost under him...lol
So will have to make changes...
I just removed all the compost and horse manure under Thomas Affleck and its just down to bare soil now.
I have to think about this more... Shredded wood mulch does not help nor did the compost.
I put down a fresh layer of horse manure just now...
I may just have to face the fact that Thomas affleck is just not the right rose for here and move on... Maybe I need to build a roof over him to keep his leaves dry...lol ( You will understand my comment when you read farther down in this posting.)
I will try Earth Song (Buck) rose next if TA fails.
I had to scratch my head this morning. Neighbor one block down asked me to let her dogs out today while she was away.
So at 10am I strolled down to let her dogs out.
I noticed she had two hybrid teas with boxes built around them that had a roof... Yes a roof... And to boot they are close to the house. They are planted in bare dirt no mulch.
Weeds growng everywhere and all around and under these hybrid tea roses. I thought on my! lol
But on closer inspection these roses are doing good in those conditions!
NO Blackspot and blooming!... Leaves looked good!...
Then I seen two more roses at the side of her house.
Planted close to house, bare dirt, but No blackspot on one rose and just a tiny bit at the bottom of the other one...
I ran home and grabbed my camera...lol
When I see something like this many questions go through my head...lol... Because for some reason those roses are doing good in that situation...
I just noticed their is a third Hybrid Tea to the left that is behind and poking its head out from the wooden structure. I see spent blooms... amazing!
This post was edited by jim1961 on Sat, Jul 26, 14 at 16:35
Hi Jim: Thank you for posting those pictures ... they got me laughing !! A roof over roses .. it's clever though. I was walking last year, and saw the neighbor's Angel Face rose planted against the garage, with grass at its foot. No mulch, just lawn. It's 100% healthy for a decade, until this past winter killed it.
Artillery fungus is known to germinate on decayed mulch and shoot up to sidings and parked cars nearby .... it's a black spot fungus, very much like roses. With regard to your Thomas Affleck, stores like Home Depot, Menards, and Lowe's sell "garden lime" in a small bag for $5.
Spreading "garden lime" around might work, like what I did to Radio Times rose ... it was a B.S. fest last year when I fixed my clay with pine bark to make the pH slightly acidic. This year we got month-long rain, so I spread gritty lime last month. Now Radio Times is healthy, very little BS, very vigorous, and still perky next to a tree.
I inspected W. S. 2000, an Austin own-root with pale leaves, I put too much gypsum around ... it became wilted immediately. None of my roses ever wilt with gritty lime !! They become pale, but at least they are healthy, and the blooming is NOT affected. It's only the UNSTABLE calcium hydroxide, or hydrated lime in tap water that makes my roses stingy.
Gritty lime is a STABLE form, 100% calcium, and is released with rain water to raise soil pH, gritty lime pH is 9.... NO fungi nor mushroom can germinate on such alkaline surface. Below link on artillery fungus from Penn State University:
Here is a link that might be useful: Artillery fungus and Penn State research
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Jul 26, 14 at 14:30
Hi Jim: When I look at your neighbor's roses, second from last picture: the bush with pink petunia on lowest right edge. That bush has some whitish powder on the ground .. looks like she spread ground limestone.
I have some Bolero blooms in the vase, way-more petals than 1st flush without gritty lime. After making a few roses wilted, I learn to spread gypsum ONLY where I know for sure it's rock-hard-clay, high pH. The place near trees, or where I fixed the soil to be fluffy ... can't use gypsum there, because it brings the pH even lower.
Gritty lime works for the soil where pH is neutral or slightly acidic ... like the loamy soil near trees, or got fixed with acidic pine bark. It does NOT affect blooming, Wise Portia has 40+ blooms now, after I put gritty lime. Bolero and Radio times doubled in size with gritty lime. Gritty lime is better than ground-limestone, because there's a few larger pieces for slower release, and a few dust for immediate release.
I like gritty lime more than horse manure, since for the past 3 years of horse manure, my Austin roses were stingy. The stable here used quick lime (calcium hydroxide) the same stuff that's in my tap-water. That's the UNSTABLE form of lime, bad for plants, because it binds with potassium, phosphorus & trace elements ... roses doesn't bloom much.
I don't see any decrease with blooming with gritty lime, only paler but healthier leaves, plus vigorous new growth on roses that prefer alkaline.
Hi Strawberry and Jim~
Jim~ I was saddened to read of your wife's MS. I hope you have success with making your roses less care so she can enjoy gardening instead of it being a struggle for her and hope that you solve your TA rose issues.
I repotted the 2 Ivor's Roses, stripping off all of the bs infected leaves and rinsing the soil from the root ball. I'm hoping this will help, then fertilizing the same as my other HR roses.
Stawberry~What is gritty lime. Is this like Epsomas organic garden lime as opposed to ground lime?
Hi Sharon: Gritty lime is the same as Espoma Garden Lime. I was at Walmart and saw that bag ... it had a leak, so I inspected the content .. it's the same stuff as what I got from the quarry nearby. It's dolomitic lime, with both calcium and magnesium.
I realize that gypsum is great when MIXED IN THE PLANTING HOLE, so the soil can buffer its 17% sulfur. But when I topped roses with gypsum, it gunked up on top near the stem, and its 17% sulfur burns, thus the wilting where the soil is loamy & slightly acidic. Gritty lime spreads out when I water, thus NO BURNING like gypsum.
I googled "Earthworm casting" to find out what are the trace elements ... and accidentally found this recipe from a marijuana site (just as fussy as roses!!). Flowering Mix: Worm castings & in the first 4 weeks of flowering, add Pinch of dolomite lime, pinch of gypsym, pinch of pure wood ash. Mix in a bucket of water & filter solids. Water during flowering.
*** From Straw: The recipe above is too alkaline (worm casting is alkaline). The site suggested using some lemon juice. I would love to get some wood ash to experiment .. such as putting wood ash (pH 10) on top of cracked corn (pH 4). That would neutralize each other out. Or use wood ash to kill weeds. Or put a bit of wood ash for trace elements in acidic water, that's a lot cheaper than kelp.
Warning about gritty lime (pH 9) or wood ash (pH 10): wimpy roots or surface roots like weeds hate that stuff. It's only the DEEP & vigorous roots like Dr. Huey, Radio Times, and Wise Portia which excel at acid-phosphatase can handle such alkalinity.
Thanks for info Straw:
I talked to my neighbor Strawberryhill and she said she does nothing to them but prune them in the Spring.
She works a lot and has no time for pulling weeds either.
Not sure what the white substance is but she claims its not from her doing...lol
I'll just leave the horse manure on to see what happens the rest of the year.
This is what I have noticed about growing roses here:
Roses that I buy at Heirloom roses rarely get blackspot here in their first season of growth. If they are going to get blackspot it will show up in the 2nd to 3rd seasons here and then it gets bad as almost all leaves drop from the bushes every year afterwards.
If I plant a older more advanced own root rose and that certain rose happens to be prone to BS then I will see the severe blackspot happen in the first season of growth such as in the case of our Thomas Affleck.
This post was edited by jim1961 on Sun, Jul 27, 14 at 13:00
Hi Jim: Thank you for the most beautiful pictures of butterflies! I love your photography. I notice the same too. I think the acid-phosphatase of root is what makes soil increasing more acid the 3rd year.
Take own-root Austins planted in my clay (pH 7.7), topped with horse manure (pH 8). The 1st year these wimpy roots had just a tiny B.S. (about 3 leaves), but didn't bloom much. The 2nd year own-roots got bigger & secreted more acid, more blooms. Roots got stronger, 100% clean roses with horse manure (pH 8).
The 3rd year I lowered my tap water with sulfate of potash & gypsum, still clean with horse manure. But French Romantica roses, which prefer more alkaline, started getting diseases the 3rd year.
The 4th year, or this year, I bought 3 rain-barrels and water my roses with rain water, pH 6. And pH of rain on the East coast is even more acidic than my Chicagoland, according to Wikipedia. Most my roses have BS .. the only ones still clean were planted in my alkaline clay, pH 7.7. The roses planted in fluffy soil like MG potting soi, or clay fixed with pine bark, with less calcium and trace elements, have the worst B.S.
I thought that since I don't get horse manure, less trace elements to keep roses clean. But when I researched on trace elements, VERY LITTLE is required, plus zinc & copper & boron are highest in the chicken manure I used. Then it occur to me that the ones with the most BS are the HEAVIEST bloomers, like Comte de Chambord, Sonia Rykiel, and W.S. 2000. These are clean in spring time, and prior to a flush. To make blooms, a lot of acid is secreted by roots via "acid-phosphatase", to utilize nutrients to make blooms. The tissue of leaves also become more acidic, thus more prone to black spots, at the end of blooming.
Here's an excerpt from link below "Some plant roots, especially cluster roots, exude carboxylates that perform acid phosphatase activity, helping to mobilise phosphorus in nutrient-deficient soils."
That's why Frank Gatto, owner of a large rose nursery of 900 roses in PNW .... he put 1 cup of lime per rose bush to sweeten the soil in early spring. Even with my rock hard alkaline clay at pH 7.7, the soil near trees are very fluffy and less alkaline. I dug up 4 dead roses that were killed this past winter, the soil there is surprisingly fluffy, and tested slightly acidic in red cabbage juice.
I also dug up 2 rhododendrons today, the soil there is rock-hard and VERY ALKALINE. Roots that don't secret much acid, like rhododendrons, do best in fluffy & acidic soil. Roots that secrets acid well, like Dr. Huey rootstock, can thrive at rock-hard clay, at high pH. I dug up Dr. Huey rootstock, it's woody and strong like a tree-root.
Thus the more vigorous and drought-tolerant a rose is, the more it prefers alkaline soil. Alkaline soil are in region that don't get much rain, like CA, or regions next to limestone quarry, like my Chicagoland.
Here are the roses that I have to fix my clay to be acidic, and most likely will do well at your loamy soil at pH of 6.5: Annie L. McDowell, Kordes roses with shiny leaves, and roses with multiflora parentage don't secret much acid, thus have less diseases in the long run.
The 2 roses which are most black spot-resistant are: Kordes Caramel Fairy Tale (semi-glossy leaves), and Pretty Lady (semi-glossy leaves). Here's a comment in HMF about Pretty Lady (bred in England): "I live in zone 5 in a yard that has horrendous blackspot, and my Pretty Lady is positioned so that she gets watered overhead by my automatic sprinkler system, yet she remains completely blackspot free for me. She is slow to repeat though."
Slow to repeat means less-acid phosphatase, and takes longer to secret acid to make blooms. I have the same problem with Kordes Deep Purple: slow to repeat, very wimpy root in my alkaline clay. Kordes roses are known as disease-resistant, and bloom best in loamy & acidic soil.
Here is a link that might be useful: Wikipedia on Acid Phosphatase of cluster roots
Thanks for the info Strawberryhill!
Only Kordes rose I ever tried to grow was Loves Magic (Aka 'Liebeszauber'.)
It got severe BS here in its second season so I took it out and my step dad said he would transplant it up at his house.
My step dads soil is totally different than ours but poor Liebeszauber still to this day suffers from BS.
I have not tried any of the new Kordes roses yet.
Hi Jim: Liebeszauber is the top rose in Seaweed's dry and alkaline CA garden. Kordes has a few roses which are susceptible to mildew, but is BS-resistant. I have Kordes roses Crimson Glory and Barcelona ... both had a touch of mildew, but went away when I gave them gritty lime. Both have very little black spots in my garden, even with month-long rain.
Mildew is much easier to fix than black spots. Jim, since your soil and climate is the opposite of Seaweed, I would avoid any of her top performers. If you select "advanced search" in HMF, then click on "Growing characteristic", then choose "susceptible to mildew", it will give you a long list of roses which are susceptible to mildew .. those are the ones with least BS when it's rainy here. I see Austin Ambridge rose, lots of Austin roses, Barcelona, Belle Story, Bow Bells, Charles de Mills (Gallica don't get much BS), Charles R. Mackintosh, Charlotte, Kordes Cinderella, Cinderella fairy tale, Claire rose, Crimson Glory, Crocus rose ...
My Gallica Tricolor de Flander is in a wet & shady bed,and it's 100% clean. Paul Barden is right about Gallica roses don't have much BS. Too bad they are once-bloomer.
Here is a link that might be useful: List of roses susceptible to mildew in HMF
I did another "Advanced search" in HMF, under "Growing", then "Very blackspot resistant", and it gave me: Kordes Afternoon Delight floribunda, Kordes Aloha climber, lots of Gallica, Blue Mist (Burlington sells this for $7.50, I love this one in my garden, always clean), Cinderella, Floral fairy tale, Golden Fairy tale, Kordes Home & Garden, Lion's Fairy Tale, Mary Rose, Miracle on the Hudson, Oso Easy series, Pomponella Fairy Tale, Purple Rain (Kordes), Sister's Fairy Tale, Strawberry Crush, Teasing Georgia, Tess of the d'ubervilles.
*** with the exception of vigorous Austins like Teasing Georgia and Tess ... I stay away from the above, my soil is too alkaline for Kordes roses, they don't bloom well for me. Kordes Deep Purple is stingy in a pot, with my alkaline tap water. Blue Mist is stingy for me, but always clean. The above roses don't "acid-phosphatase" enough for my high pH rock-hard clay.
With regard to mildew: When Gruss an Teplitz (the parent of Dr. Huey) broke out in mildew, I fixed it by putting gypsum and cracked corn in the planting hole. I dug up a hole which I put cracked corn last fall .. it's very moist and fluffy .. great for mildew prevention. The 5 roses that I fixed with cracked corn last fall, now become continuous bloomers. Cracked corn when wet, holds water many times its original weight. I didn't realize that until I soaked 1/2 cup of cracked corn in a bucket of water. The next day the corn expanded to many times its size.
Since cracked corn is acidic (pH 4), it needs a buffer system, like twice more Encap compost (pH 7.7), or 1 cup of lime in the planting hole. I can't use lime in the planting hole because of my heavy alkaline clay, so I use alkaline compost granules.
Recently I put some roses into the ground. The ones which I mixed chopped up leaves are NOT happy, droopy. The ones with cracked corn are very perky. Same with pots, I put some cracked corn in a pot with Heirloom hybrid tea, it has the most growth compared to the other.
My best planting holes have cracked corn to hold moisture, and Encap Dry Compost, pH 7.7, to buffer corn's acidity at pH 4, plus 1 cup of Tomato-Tone, plus granular gypsum. Sharifa immediately gave me 2 buds as a tiny plant, so did tiny band Comte. They did nothing before the transplant. There's a few corn plants that sprout, but so easy to kill. That's nothing compared to the time I got fresh manure, and spent hours pulling up oats that sprouted.
The worst holes were when I fixed with pine bark, peat moss, or MG potting soil ... none of these have trace elements or too acidic. Roses fixed with this last approach become BS-fest later. I lost a few roses this past winter since it was both cold, and dry. When I dug up the dead roses, the soil is loamy, but dry like sawdust .. that's when I realize each hole needs organic matter like composted manure, leaves, or cracked corn for moisture retention. Every rose that was fixed with cracked corn survived this past winter, even Honey Bouquet which is known as NOT hardy.
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Jul 27, 14 at 23:54
Thanks for all the info and tips on different roses!
Do you or anyone you know grow any of the OSO Easy roses? I was wondering how large their blooms get?
Thomas Affleck was the first rose to ever get Powdery Mildew here. I've never seen it on any other rose until TA arrived.
Our outside roses only get rain water. I collect rain water for when I add something like Brewers Yeast to the roses.
Other wise it rains enough to keep them going.
Liebeszauber bloomed well here but its blooms easily fried at the edges with to much sun. Besides it getting a lot of BS here.
Liebeszauber does not bloom well at my moms/step dads house and gets lots of BS to where it loses most of its leaves.
Harkness roses that are bred in England have not done well here Strawbhill.
We have no room for climbers or real large roses...
We like roses 3-4 ft high and wide or a bit smaller...
Darker/brighter colors...
Blooms 2.5"-3" or larger
This post was edited by jim1961 on Mon, Jul 28, 14 at 22:23
Hi Jim~Have you considered easy elegance roses? According to their website they are own root. Macy's Pride gets rave reviews at the Peggy Rockerfeller Rose Gardens in NYC which is now no spray. I have recently purchased their "Centennial Rose" which has pale peach centers fading to white at edges but sadly no fragrance. It is about 3 inches across in full bloom and has pale pinky-peach buds and shiny dark green leaves. I haven't had it through the winter yet but it's listed as hardy for Zone 5. They were bred by Ping Lim.
They have locate a retailer. Chamblee's has a limited selection so you would probably have to find a local retailer. They have some more vivid colors available.
Here's a link to a GW discussion on these with links to other discussions too.
Here's a link for more info on all of Ping Lim's roses-
This post was edited by enchantedrose on Tue, Jul 29, 14 at 8:03
enchantedrose, yes I have considered the Easy Elegance roses BUT can not find them within a 100 mile radius locally here. Its like they disappeared from the earth... :-/
Nor could I find them online. I contacted vendors but they told they are not carrying them anylonger. ???????
Nature hills has 3 different Easy Elegance roses but want $49.99 plus shipping for one rose... :-O
Here is a link that might be useful: Nature Hills
This post was edited by jim1961 on Tue, Jul 29, 14 at 18:32
Hi Jim: Three years ago I bought Easy Elegance rose "Grandma's Blessing" from local Home Depot. After I gave it too much ACID high nitrogen fertilizer, which made its tissue soft ... easy entry for RRD mite. I had to remove that rose. It was very CHLOROTIC or pale in my alkaline clay, that's why I had to give it sulfur-fertilizer. Home Depot sold it for only 1 year, and NEVER afterwards. Perhaps it requires more acidic soil than our native clay, or it's more susceptible to RRD since it has multiflora parentage.
Oso Easy series, bred in MN zone 4 ... Minnesota has a good portion of acidic clay & high rainfall. Edmunds Roses sell many Oso Easy series OWN-ROOT, it's free shipping until Feb, for orders more than $100. Edmunds Roses have a few Romanticas as own-root, plus Oso-Easy as own-roots, but their hybrid teas are grafted on Dr. Huey.
Below is where you can request a free catalog. Awesome to look at, great pics. One drawback: when I google, "The scoop on Edmunds Roses", Dave's garden gave it a very low rating, lots of customers' complaints. But they are responsible, and do exchange if an item is icky. Edmunds Roses is based in Wisconsin. Their free catalog has great pics & useful info. on disease-resistant & size of the rose.
Here is a link that might be useful: Edmunds' Roses with Oso Easy series
Hi Jim~Chamblee's has some, though not many. Nature Hills has very poor ratings at Dave's Garden so I probably wouldn't buy from them unless I was desperate. Nor would I pay $50.00 for a rose.
Chamblee's has Sweet Fragrance, Macy's Pride, Super hero, All the Rage and My Girl, all easy elegance. They are listed in the Own Root Garden Roses section.
here is "All the Rage"
Maybe these might work for you. At least Chamblee's is reasonably priced and has very healthy plants. Strawberry is very impressed with the root system on their mail order plants. I have Macy's Pride on order, also an easy elegance rose .
Macy's Pride
Our Thomas Affleck is doing worse so if this continues instead of wasting any more time I'm going to take TA out next Spring and plant Earth Song which is a Buck rose that does well in a lot of gardens throughout the USA in its place.
Thanks for the info... I like the larger blooms on the Easy Elegance roses so I may try a couple out front.
The OSO Easy roses I think may have small blooms like in the 2" range from info I gathered. But little info available on bloom sizes for them. At least I can't find much on it..
Thanks for all the info Straw and enchantedrose!
Wow! I love those "Easy Elegance" roses posted by Sharon, they are absolutely clean and beautiful roses! I was so impressed by "Easy Elegance" Grandma's Blessing at Home Depot, that's why I bought it years ago. There was more blooms than leaves in the pot.
I didn't know how fix my pH 7.7 clay to be acidic for blooming back then .... so I dumped acid-chemical fertilizer, which made that "Easy elegance" came down with RRD.
Jim, those "Easy Elegance" roses are clean with the most blooms in pots at the store. They beat Knock-outs in blooms even. Thanks to you, Jim, for the discussion on Brewer's Yeast ... that fixed my insomnia & blood-sugar problem. I have been sleeping very well, thanks to Brewer's Yeast B-vitamins. It works better than Melatonin, with its B6 helping me to fall asleep faster. I like the extra-energy I get from Brewer's yeast, so I take it every morning.
My hubby is a marathon runner. Over a decade ago I read in his running magazine about putting brewer's yeast in a breakfast-shake for endurance in long-distance running. I wish I had tried it back then !! Without Brewer's Yeast, I would not be able to accomplish Herculean tasks recently, such as chopping down a 12' tall Juniper tree by myself (I'm less than 5' tall). I also chopped down a 6' tall Spruce tree, plus installing a 20 feet plastic edging in rock-hard clay.
I get really hyperactive with Brewer's Yeast, like mopping the entire house, including the basement. I have a few azaleas and rhodies that have been pale for the past decade, and made worse by using acid-chemical fertilizer. So I dug those up, and fix them. The clay there is like concrete. The result, I lost 3 lbs since I started taking Brewer's yeast. That's the first weight loss in 3 years.
If I had known trees are that much work, I would NOT have planted those 12 years ago. Roses are nothing compared to trimming trees and bushes. So glad that I dug up my 2 forsythia bushes to give to my neighbor. She ended up paying a gardener $100 to trim those, plus 4 small bushes. Below is my garden, I planted those trees when they were babies, like 1 foot tall .. now they are huge .. tons of work.
Hi Jim and Strawberry~The Easy Elegance roses are pretty carefree. The pics shown are not mine though :-(, some are from a RI gardener, the Macy's Pride is from Easy elegance website. I have Centennial Rose but it was just past bloom so no pic. It's doing really well so far. It's still potted since I want to wait til it cools off some before I plant it.
Jim~I had earth Song but it didn't grow that well for me, but I was a novice then so I'm sure I probably contributed to its demise ;-/ When it bloomed though it was a vivid pink and nicely full. My smaller Kordes rose which I think is Elegant Fairy Tale has been blooming steadily all summer, has no bs and has been thriving on neglect, no fertilizer, no winter protection. I think this is a RU rose about 5 years old and about 3-1/2 feet tall so in your size range and has medium pink roses but no scent, still pretty though and the blooms last quite a long time.
Strawberry~I know about trees!! We planted a hedge of Arborvitae for screening believing the land behind our house had sold. I wanted a fence but my husband wanted shrubs. I detest these! We have an acre of land that's probably 60% woods so I hate giving up my cleared land to trees. I'm hoping to convince him to cut these down so i can plant flowers instead. I'm small like you so the "bull work" is tough, we have rocks, boulders and ledge everywhere!! It's so frustrating to be so tiny. I like doing everything myself and get really frazzled when I can't and have to rely on someone else for help. I want it done now!! ;-)
Thanks for all info!
Great garden shot Strawbhill!
And awesome Easy Elegance rose pics enchantedrose!
I just got a email response back from Chamblees and they are not going to bring back some of there Easy Elegance roses next year. They gave no reason why...
Sorry to hear Earth Song did not grow well for you enchantedrose... Sometimes I wonder if we are not getting dud roses once in awhile.
I have had duplicates of roses and one grew real well and one not so well...Happened here a couple different times.
I just contacted several local garden center sites to find out why they are not carrying the Easy Elegance roses.
Because these garden centers are listed on the Easy Elegance website when I type in our zip code.
Anyhow most of them had no idea but two garden centers said that they once carried them but they were not that disease resistant around here so they discontinued them because they were not selling...
Our garden centers do not carry OSO Easy roses either but I can not find out why...
First bloom on Thomas Affleck of his second flush...
I found the below site and other sites giving a thumbs up to Earth Song (Buck) rose. So I'll try it....lol
I plant my own roots approx . (2) inches deeper than they were in the pots they came in...
"Earthsong In Summer
Mid-summer is a good time for me to gauge which roses will truly thrive in my climate. It's the most brutal time of year for roses to endure in the Deep South. We have extreme temperatures, off-the-chart high humidity, sometimes flooding rains, and sometimes long droughts. The conditions are also perfect for that number one enemy of roses - blackspot. Since I don't spray, this is about the best time to get an evaluation of what roses will make the cut for me. One rose that is definitely passing with flying colors is the Griffith Buck rose, Earthsong."
Earth Song in Minnesota:
Earth Song:
Here is a link that might be useful: Earth Song
This post was edited by jim1961 on Wed, Jul 30, 14 at 14:26
I placed a thread on the Gardening in Pennsylvania forum to see if anyone grows any roses that get little to no blackspot without spraying here in Pa. Worth a try...
I have a friend in Eastern Pa but he said even Knockouts get a decent amount of BS there... :-/ So he could not help me much...
Hi Jim,~it's so frustrating when trying to get roses to behave and to find those that you think would do well.!! I wonder why Chamblee's is dropping them? I called several of the listed dealers for Easy Elegance too. Most had not even heard of them. One nursery however in northern CT had "Centennial Rose" which I bought and told me I could order in late fall for the following spring so I'm hoping to get some of these. My plan is to have a gorgeous but finicky fragrance garden with DA roses as the entrance garden and then have less finicky ones in other areas of my yard. I purchased Quietness due to the praise she received by a NH gardener. Her flowers are gorgeous, smell really nice but she was wimpy for me and got black spot while in NH in a spray free garden she was gorgeous. I have Folksinger which has beautiful peach flowers but they shatter rather quickly. It died back to the ground over the winter so I cut it back to the ground. It is just starting its second flush of buds. Zero blackspot so far, so fingers crossed :-).
Have you considered Bolero? RU lists it, maybe they'll have it for order in Jan. I have these in pots, grafted though, and they have no blackspot, but they might have been sprayed by the vendor HD purchased from, although it seems the effects of the spray would have worn off by now since I bought these in late May. They are every bit as fragrant as DA roses since it has Sharifa Asma in its lineage according to HMF. Mine has been blooming or in bud continuously and is really lush. It is creamy white with a soft pink center.
Have you thought of the Kordes roses? These were highly praised by Peter Kukielski the former curator of the Peggy Rockerfeller Rose Gardens in NYC. Here is a link for a NY Times article-
He also has a book "Roses Without Chemicals: 150 Disease-Free Varieties That Will Change the Way You Grow Roses" for release in Feb. 2015. I know it won't help you now though.
It seems so difficult to find what works for ones specific garden environment. The trial and error method gets pretty expensive not to mention the time wasted on a rose that just won't grow well.
Some have mentioned joining your local ARS but then others who have say they advocate using an arsenal of chemicals to get the perfect rose. Too bad there isn't an ORS~Organic Rose Society!!
Bolero HMF
I re-read that email Katherine sent me from Chamblees.
I'm going to write her back in case I misunderstood what she was trying to say about the Easy Elegance roses.
I get back to you...
Bolero is a light colored bloom.. We have so much trouble with insects with light colored or yellow blooms that I have stopped growing light colors...
We get no Japanese Beetles with the darker colors etc...
Yes I am looking at the newer Kordes roses to try.
But finding darker colors with a 3" or larger bloom size is difficult...lol
I would consider orange like Brothers Grimm but need to research...
There are roses on the market that will work here I just gotta find them...
After all I have a blackspot resistant Mister Lincoln here...lol... So it is possible!
I research and a rose looks great elsewhere but fails here.
When I bought Mister Lincoln I expected BS but just wanted to smell his blooms. And he turns out to be BS resistant here...lol
This post was edited by jim1961 on Thu, Jul 31, 14 at 13:15
Hi Sharon: Thanks for that great pic. of Bolero from HMF ... we are forming our own Organic Rose Society right in this forum !! If I had found such, I would NOT had given up on roses more than a decade ago, and planted 26 blasted trees, which are REAL PAIN and REAL WORK.
I like own-root roses, it's like "Bonsai" version of the big-monster-grafted-on-Dr.Huey. I'm into quality, rather than quantity. I would rather have a tiny Jude with 3-always-blooming blooms, than huge Jude over 6 feet, with one bloom like I saw at the rose park one summer. With so many trees to trim, the last thing I want to do is to trim rose bushes.
Putting a few red lava rocks on top make roses bloom at the expense of growth, so I take off the red lava from pots, and put those on messy Fred (he's getting too much foliage).
Hi Jim: The glossy-foliage like Bolero can take lots of rain and moisture. My Bolero in its 3rd year is getting some black spots, but I fixed that with spreading gritty lime on top. My most clean rose now is Radio Times, with the most gritty lime .. its slow-release DOES NOT decrease the blooming like the unstable hydrated lime, or calcium hydroxide in tap water.
The below Aussie site on changing soil pH describes the different types of lime. The site stated that manures are acidic, true, U. of Kentucky measured the pH of cow manure to be 4. But BAGGED COW manure have lime added to deodorize, raising the pH to 8 (I tested that already). Same with horse manure, some stables use lime to deodorize the stalls, raising the pH. Soil forum folks report horse manure to be VERY alkaline, above 8.
Here is a link that might be useful: Aussie site on changing soil pH
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Jul 31, 14 at 14:15
Chamblees just emailed me and said that they are dropping all Easy Elegance roses because they do not sell...
Strawbhill, The Bolero rose has light colored blooms which draws Japanese Beetles here and other crazy insects.
With darker colors I see no JB's at all...
So I quit growing light colors...lol
I have been down this road before with the Kordes roses but had forgotten. My friend about 2.5 miles from me tried 3 of the fairy tale series but they blackspotted and lost approx. 50% of there leaves... They also mildewed...
I ran into a thread I created on gardenweb last year..
I need to keep notes and I think I will from now on...
Here is a link that might be useful: Bro Grimm
This post was edited by jim1961 on Thu, Jul 31, 14 at 14:23
Hi Jim: You are right that the light-color roses are JB magnets. I find that open-stamens & fewer petals invite Japanese Beetles even worse. My red Firefighter rose, with less than 40 petals in hot weather, attracted TWICE more JB than Bolero, with 160 petals. Pat in Rose forum reported that her red Rouge Royal, with 100 firm petals, have the least JB.
Japanese beetles like to hide under the petals to shade themselves from the hot sun. They can't get inside zillion-petals like white Mary Magdalene, with lots of petals (David Austin catalog stated its petal-count to be 110). I never have any JB on Mary Magdalene, either from the high-petal count, or the strong myrrh scent. My W.S. 2000 with 120 petals never have any JB for the past 3 years.
Those traps that I set FAR AWAY from my garden worked. I only saw 2 Japanese Beetles this year !! Two years ago my red Firefighter rose was the worst JB-magnet, due to JB likes to hide under its looser petals. It's much harder for JB to get inside TIGHTLY-PACKED Austin roses, so those were least affected.
hi Jim and Strawberry~
I just got my order for Harlow Carr and Mayflower. I hope these will work and have ordered Wife of Bath and Pretty Jessica. We'll see how these work.
Jim~I love Brother's Grimm pics. The color is striking and have read negative and positive so very confusing. I have thrips, I think, in my light colored roses :-(...I'm beginning to think I'm like the character in "Field of Dreams" except in my case it's "if you plant it they will come". My Darcy Bussell rose has had no insects and no noticiable black spot or any other disease. This is own root 2 year old from David Austin. She has not been without a bloom since I planted her and has a nice, though mild, fragrance. I've seen very few JBs this year, hurray, I don't know if it's lack of rain or lack of lawn that's making a difference but I'll take it.
I found this suggestion in a British article on growing roses organically-
"Underplant your roses with non-invasive herbaceous perennials such as Campanula lactiflora 'Prichard's Variety', Viola cornuta and hardy geraniums. This understorey will help to prevent fungal spores from splashing up from the soil". Maybe this could help. I love lamium Pewter Pink, it doesn't get straggly looking and flowers several times a season. It has pretty green and white foliage and pink flowers. It doesn't seem to be overly invasive and plants can push through it without a problem. I've never grown it under roses only as an edging groundcover. maybe I'll give it a whirl although it does seem too simple.
and she continues...
"Don't spray at the first sign of aphids. Instead, allow time for the birds, ladybirds and other predatory insects to discover them. They will lay eggs close by, or parasitise them. Rub out aphids with your fingers.
Use roses in mixed planting rather than in dedicated rose borders, as this lessens the chance of diseases like blackspot.
Use some late-flowering nectar plants to sustain hoverflies and lacewings. Both have predatory larvae which feed on aphids.
Gaura lindheimeri, annual cosmos and penstemons can sustain insects and bees until late autumn.
Feed roses well - once in March and again after the first flush of flower. Use garden compost, well-rotted manure or a slow-release, sprinkle-on rose fertiliser.
Prune roses and make cuts that slope away from the buds - using sharp secateurs. Remove the dead, dying and diseased wood by late spring, keeping the shape open to allow a flow of air.
Mulch with well-rotted organic material during winter to create a barrier between soil and rose.
Be bold and replace disease-prone roses with better varieties. Ideally replace the soil or replant in a different position.
Plant one rose that produces hips to sustain the birds. Rosa glauca is a large shrub with dark foliage and cocoa-brown hips. It can be planted on a boundary edge.
Ask specialist rose growers to recommend their healthiest varieties. Prepare the ground well when planting and cut bare-root roses down hard to limit wind rock.
Top 10 disease-resistant roses
Silver Ghost
A repeat-flowering shrub rose with single white flowers and dark healthy foliage (2ft). Gold Standard rose.
A repeat-flowering dark red climbing rose with glossy dark green foliage - for pillars, walls and arches (up to 6ft).
Golden Gate
A mid-yellow, repeat-flowering climber with semi-double flowers for pillars, walls and arches (up to 6ft).
A light pink, repeat-flowering climber bearing clusters of quartered flowers. Very fragrant (over 6ft).
A low-growing, repeat-flowering ground cover rose, with unscented red flowers and dark green leaves (2ft).
Buxom Beauty
Highly scented, mauve-pink hybrid tea rose with healthy foliage and large spiralled buds which give huge flowers (4ft).
Champagne Moments
A superb floribunda with clusters of pale apricot flowers fading to cream (2ft 6in-3ft). Rose of the Year 2006.
Red Finesse
A dark red floribunda with rich green leaves (3ft).
Summer Beauty
Short apricot floribunda with clusters of full flowers and olive-green foliage (2ft 3in).
Caribbean Dawn
A semi-double, patio rose with lots of pink flowers shaded in yellow and orange and small green leaves (2ft).
As for roses...it seems like we just have to experiment, unfortunately, to see what works best in our specific environment."
Strawberry~ I guess we ARE forming our own organic rose society although a very tiny one ;-). And I love my Bolero roses but plan on getting them own root next spring if Roses Unlimited still has them.
Few years ago I ran across a thread that someone bought Easy Elegance rose directly from Ping Lim, for $10 each, I can't find that thread again, but I found another thread on Easy Elegance. Yes, they have multiflora parentage, perfect for acidic soil, but NOT appropriate for alkaline soil like my Chicagoland or Texas.
I'm into thornless roses so I bought newly bred roses directly from the breeder, Robert Neil Rippetoe. It's a lot cheaper than buying from nurseries. Below link is a page in HMF about the breeder of Easy Elegance, Ping Lim:
In my years of growing over 70 varieties of roses, JB likes less-petals roses, so they can get inside & hide. Last year my dark-pink Pink Peace (58 petals) rose was a JB-magnet, while my lighter-color, many petals Evelyn (over 100 petals) was not affected much.
But the higher the petal count, the more the demand for calcium and potassium. My soil is dolomitic clay (high in magnesium & calcium), so I don't have balling problems with high-petals. The longer I grow roses, the more I realize roses ARE DIFFERENT from each other. Take Eglantyne, with Rugosa heritage, it was stingy on me, until I fixed my clay with 2 bags of sand. Rugosa is known as "beach rose" due to tolerance of drought and sandy soil.
Take Easy Elegance rose "Grandma's blessing". It was blooming tons in a pot (with acidic potting soil & pine bark). When I planted in my pH 7.7 clay, it stopped blooming for 1 year. Then in spring with tons of rain (pH of rain is 6 to 5.6), plus I gave it acid-fertilizer high in sulfur, it gave a great spring flush.
Below link is the site where one can order Ping's roses DIRECTLY, plus the new releases ... great site to browse through.
Here is a link that might be useful: Site to order Easy Elegance directly
Hi Strawbhill, I have been on that Easy Elegance website before in the past and I have emailed Ping several times but he has never emailed back yet...
Well Strawbhill and enchantedrose you two will have to post many pics of your different roses so I can enjoy them while I'm hunting...lol
I've always been afraid to plant underplanting to close to rose bushes as they possibility could steal nutrients from the roses.
At least thats what I was taught all my life. And never plant roses to close to tree roots...lol
I just need to find blackspot resistant roses for my area and then I should not need to worry about underplantings etc.
I have a group of 5 Double Knockouts roses in a bed that all do very well so I'm glad for that...lol
I'm on a mission... :-)
Please post some rose pics you two... :-)
This post was edited by jim1961 on Thu, Jul 31, 14 at 21:17
Hi Jim: it's easier to fix the soil to make it right for any rose, than to find the perfect rose. Take Annie L. McDowell, it doesn't secret much acid ... gave folks in alkaline CA hell. It died on my sister in Southern CA. I have to put ungodly amount of sulfur (2 cups) plus 2 cups of gypsum, plus acidic pine bark for Annie's hole.
Now Annie is my best performer, 100% clean. Blue Mist gave me hell when it was in a pot, broke out in black spots when I lowered my tap-water with lemon juice. Blue Mist was always pale, but it's my cleanest rose now. See picture below.
I have many roses that are 100% clean the 1st year, but as the root gets bigger, they secret more acid. Plus we have more rain this year, and I use rain-barrels, rather than alkaline tap, with roses blooming more, but with more BS. I have to put gritty lime on top, versus doing NOTHING for Annie and Blue Mist.
Niels in Denmark, zone 5b has acidic clay. He has lots of Austin roses ... they do best for him. Burlington nursery has lots of polyanthas (did well for Seil in MI), plus multiflora roses (prefer acidic soil, Blue Mist has multiflora parentage, so does Easy Elegance roses). I have a hunch that either disease-resistant Austin roses like Darcey Bussell (Sharon's recommendation), or multiflora will be best for your acidic clay.
Multiflora and polyantha roots are different .. they are cluster-spreading roots more on the surface, versus a long stick downward like Dr. Huey. The deeper the root, the more it can't tolerate wet-feet, heavy rain, thus break out in B.S. I dug up a B.S. fest Honey Bouquet rose today ... it's a deep and woody root like Dr. Huey ... I planted it too deep, so it became waterlogged.
Below is Blue Mist in my alkaline clay, always clean. The color is blah in my pH 7.7 clay, but nicer blue in acidic soil.
Here is a link that might be useful: Niels garden in HMF (acidic clay, zone 5b)
Hi Jim and Strawberry!!
Jim~Good luck with your hunt for the perfect rose!! What color are your knockouts? I had the regular pink one and it was a JB magnet!! The red and double red were fine though, but I haven't seen many JBs this year..but other pests are doing their best to eat my rose leaves but at least they're flowering.
As for underplanting, the lamium has very shallow roots so I don't think it will steal much of the nutrients. When I plant it I just scratch up the soil; the roots are that shallow. I wouldn't use anything like Vinca minor though, that has been a curse!! I finally pulled it out of 2 beds but when I dig there's a solid mess of inter-tangled roots still. Live and learn. It was beautiful with the prettiest periwinkle flowers in spring but seemed to choke out my other plants so GONE! Some times we have to be brutal.
Another thought~Could you plant in pots that you sink into the ground? Then you could create the perfect soil mix for each rose. I have sunk pots in the ground to winter over things I didn't have a chance to plant and have had great success with this method. I have had some hydrangeas, which are water hogs, and clematis in sunken pots for years that only get watered when it rains and they have grown fine. You would just need to find an ample size planter, maybe a rubbermaid container that you drill drainage in? Just a thought. Maybe Strawberryhill will advise on whether she thinks this could work.
Meanwhile here's a couple pics for you. Not much is flowering right now but i have a few :-)
Strawberry~ thanks again for all the valuable info. It is priceless.
I checked out the list of Neils' roses. Does he grow all of those!!?!! Amazing if he does.
I'm still trying to learn how to use the HMF sight. I bought a membership a couple weeks ago so now I need to learn how to use it to access all the info that's available.
Darcy Bussell - 3 on triangle own root from David Austin, very healthy, no bs to her base, even though I've read negatives about the quality of his own root roses but this is gorgeous!! so I might order a couple own roots from him this winter to get a jump on the tiny bands from Heirloom.
And Ivor's Rose is looking good so far, new growth has no black spot so far, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the healthy growth will continue :-). It has one tiny bud, can't wait for it to bloom!
I also have buds on my bands from HR~
Charlotte, Molineux, Honey Bouquet and Clair Matin, so exciting!!
Hi Sharon: All your roses are gorgeous, I enjoy them all. I love the dark-green & healthy leaves, and the many petals of your roses. Thank you for posting those awesome pics.
I'm going to stick with gritty lime to buffer the acidic rain. The bagged cow manure from Menards is a disaster, not only Fred became pale, he came down with the ickiest black spots. I was too lazy to return the second bag, so I spread that around Bolero, it also came down with B.S. Although its pH is alkaline, there's something icky in that manure that cause such a BS-fest, could be the salt or antibiotics. I gave those bushes rain-water from my barrel.
Same with horse manure ... great for 2 years, until the 3rd year, hubby got the fresh manure with mushrooms in it. Fred broke out in rust. There are so many variables in manure: hormones, de-worming medications, antibiotics that destroy beneficial bacteria (which suppress pathogenic fungi), the type of bedding used (hard wood, straw, or acidic pine shavings), and whether unstable quick lime is used, or the more stable gritty lime.
My pots are doing great with Encap Compost topping. No BS whatsoever. There's a bud on Carding Mill. About Niels with acidic clay & high rainfall, he only sprays the most BS-prone, but uses organic methods for most of his roses. His best performers are Austin roses and Sweet Chariot (sold for $7.50 at Burlington roses) ... that has multiflora parentage.
I find that roses near the trees have less B.S. since it's more well-drained. When there's too much water accumulated in the ground, the soil becomes "sour" with fermentation of organic matter. Multiflora-parentage has SHALLOW cluster root, thus easier to stay dry, and less prone to BS.
I fixed many roses' B.S. problem just by improving the drainage, like digging deeper, and removing those giant stones. Rose du Roi was having both mildew and B.S. in a pot ... I found that the pot wasn't draining well, and it's always soaking wet inside. Once I poked extra holes along the sides, it grew clean leaves. Roses with long-deep-sticks like Dr. Huey and Honey Bouquet are most susceptible to B.S., since they don't like wet feet.
Agree with Sharon: My single-petal red and pink Knock-outs are Japanese Beetles MAGNETS. So glad that JB like those, instead of my many-petals Austin roses.
We have red Double Knockout enchantedrose ...
I need to catch up on your lastest posts and will do that alittle later.
I have been thinking about growing more roses in containers.
Raised beds would probably work also... Lots to think about...
Strawbhill, how about the rose Carefree Celebration?
All Radler roses have done very well here so far...
I gotta go cut grass, pull weeds, and all that good stuff so I'll read your posts and look at your awesome rose pics after I get done...
Thanks a million for the rose pics enchantedrose! Your roses and garden look very nice!
My wife would not be able to mix stuff into the soil to keep things going Strawbhill. She probably would not even be able to deadhead blooms. So I gotta take things into consideration.
Right now I have horse manure and gritty lime under Thomas Affleck to see if anything improves. But I am removing him in late fall or early winter.
Even though Carefree Celebration fades to a light color I'm considering trying it next year. Whatever William Radler does in creating his roses they grow well here in our conditions without disease. :-)
Hi Jim: Carefree Celebration is a big bush, 4.5' x 4.5'. I saw it at the rose park, VERY WIDE bush, lots of blooms. Music Box is smaller 3' x 3', bred by Ping Lim, offered at Edmunds' roses for $18 as own-root. Music Box has 30 petals, yellow/pink, might be a JB magnet like my Honey Bouquet.
The best I have seen are multiflora roses offered at Burlington Roses for $12 band-size, shipping is cheap, same price for 1 rose or 6 roses, since she uses medium flat-rate box ($12 from her CA to my Chicagoland). In the below link of 589 roses sold by her nursery, it lists which ones are multiflora. Those are best bets for acidic clay, heavy rain, or poor drainage.
Burlington also sells Austin roses such as red, many-petals Prospero (compact & small, resistant to mildew & BS). Rugosa roses are best for sandy & loamy & good drainage soil. In contrast, multiflora are best for acidic clay and heavy rain. In my rock-hard alkaline clay & heavy rain, French Romanticas are best.
Below is a picture of Austin rose Prospero from Passion Fruit Garden site, with many petals, very compact, like 2' x 2' in cold zone, offered at Burlington roses for $12 per band. David Austin catalog lists Prospero as having 110 petals, 3' x 2'. If you have lots of Japanese beetles, that's a better choice than Firefighter, since Firefighter is a French Meilland rose, prefers it alkaline, and was a JB-magnet with less than 50 petals.
Here is a link that might be useful: 589 roses by Burlington for $12 each
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Aug 1, 14 at 14:22
I'd have to try one or two Austin roses to see how they do here but my wife by herself would not be able to care for Austins roses so I could not plant many of those...Maybe have 1 or 2...
If I had a lot of land I'd plant some Rugosa but that's not the case.
That Passion Fruit Garden rose looks great Strawbhill!
What two Austins would you recommend I try Strawbhill? Remember leaves will be wet every day for more then 7-8 hours so they will have to be super Blackspot and Mildew resistant for our area... And please no lighter colors... Thanks
Sadly we won't know that until they are planted though...
This post was edited by jim1961 on Fri, Aug 1, 14 at 21:43
Hi Jim: Burling sells Earth song, and the most disease-resistant: Annie L. McDowell (thornless), and Pretty Lady (can take prolonged-moisture). Those are light-pink. Queen of Sweden is the most disease resistant Austin, but that's light pink. If you e-mail Burling she might know which of her 500+ roses can take wetness everyday without B.S.
She sells 160+ mini-roses & miniflora (2' x 2') for only $7.50. Some are B.S. resistant with shiny glossy foliage, one top DR is Baby Love rose, used in breeding. Kordes roses with shiny glossy foliage can take wetness very well. I have Kordes Flower Carpet rose in a wet bed & it's 100% clean in our month-long rain ... even cleaner than Knock-out !! Burling might have some Kordes that do well in pots.
The key to endure wetness is THICK and shiny & glossy foliage. Kordes Flower Carpet fits the bill, and Annie L. McDowell is 100% clean, even in month-long rain. There's a long waiting list for that rose at Burling, since it's 100% thornless, fabulous lavender & lilac scent that perfumes the entire room. It's small for the pot in cold zone, but a climber in CA. Below is a bush-shot of my Annie L. McDowell:
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Aug 1, 14 at 16:37
Do you mean Burlington Roses Strawbhill?
I have a headache from researching...lol
I'm starting to discover roses will be strictly trial & error and there is no way to know if a rose will work here unless I try it...
I am interested in 2 OSO Easy roses... One is a yellow single called Lemon Zest, (JB's :-O) and double is called Mango Salsa...
Bloom sizes are 2"-3"
I grew two roses here that had thick and glossy leaves. That did not even slow down our blackspot...
Still lost all there leaves... :-/
I've learned one thing growing roses here... Throw out the rule book because most of it doesn't apply here...
This post was edited by jim1961 on Fri, Aug 1, 14 at 22:24
Hi Jim: Forge to wish you the best of luck in finding a disease-resistant rose .. I'm very happy with Kordes Flower Carpet, since it's low-thorn. I have Flower Carpet Coral, it's compact & low-thorn. Less JB than single-petal Knock-out.
I pray everyday for your wife's MS ... hopefully she retains good eyesight to enjoy roses. DR roses are the least work, even I dread annuals ...it's a pain to plant them every year. That's why I like snapdragons, plant them once, and they re-seed themselves years afterwards.
Below picture is Easy Elegance Grandma's Blessing in my garden, before coming down with RRD (it's next to a tree, plus that was our hottest year with a drought):
Thanks Strawbhill!
I do not mind annuals because I like change once in awhile.
What size blooms on those flower carpet roses? That's a nice looking groundcover rose!
And did you mean Burlington Roses?
I was reading on one forum where a person claimed to have 1500 roses and only 24 out of 1500 did not have much BS... :-O
Hi Jim: yes, I mean Burlington Roses in Visalia, CA. It's the cheapest place for band-size. The soil composition makes a big difference in BS-resistance. My 5 pots early spring were lousy & BS-fest since I forgot to put gypsum.
My 5 recent bands from Heirloom roses are doing great, 100% clean, vigorous growth, with a bloom on Carding Mill (bought only few weeks ago) ... since I mixed 1 cup of gypsum with 2 cups potting soil. The weather now is EXTREMELY humid, will rain soon.
Most clean roses are with gypsum in the planting hole, or had layers of horse manure build-up (rich in calcium). Gypsum works best INSIDE the hole, since I wilted many roses by throwing on top.
I'm getting good in inducing black spots !! Putting molasses make them break out in BS, since sugar promotes fungal growth. Putting too much lemon juice in tap water also makes roses break out in BS. I learn my lesson to dunk used lemons inside my lemonade 1st ... get my money's worth, plus the lemon rinds is less acidic once I use it to lower my tap water. Below is pink-single-Knock-out and Coral FlowerCarpet in my garden. The pink-single has awful sharp thorns, but the Kordes FlowerCarpet is almost thornless, with shiny glossy foliage:
Hi Strawberry and Jim~
It is raining here today and through the weekend :-( so very little gardening.
Strawberry~Are your bands in pots still or have you planted them? Mine are still potted in large pots, do you think I should be getting them in the ground or can it wait a bit longer? I have buds on 5 of my HR potted bands and nice growth and pretty much no black spot except a tiny bit on Clair Matin. We still have some work to do remaking a raised bed where these will be planted, I'm hoping to get to this in the next week or so.
I just finished planting a large order of bearded irises. I'll see how that works out since I haven't had the best of luck with these and rearranged some other plants so it's been busy.
Jim~Have you thought about drift roses? .I have quite a few of these, they are small though, but flower continuously but sadly no fragrance. Mine are flowering well in about 3 hours of sun and have no black spot. Chamblee's does have these.
Have you tried any of the Kordes roses? I read another post by you saying that other growers in PA. had trouble with them but mine are doing well with literally no care-no fertilizer, no pruning, no watering.
Hi Sharon: My neighbor had just planted a dozen of drift-roses ... they are so cute !! She put pea-gravel in the hole ... pea-gravels are small chunks of dolomitic lime. That's for drainage in our heavy clay.
My 5 bands of Souv. du President Lincoln, Madame Isaac Pereire, Heirloom, Jude the Obscure, Carding Mill were received July 18 and 19. That's only 2 weeks ago. I don't put them in the ground until the roots reach the bottom of the pot, sometimes in October.
Heirloom band I received was in bad shape, completely wilted with dry leaves. I should had dunked that in a bucket to rinse off the salty fertilizer from the nursery. So I kept watering that, and it dropped all the wilted old leaves, and grew brand new ones. I'll be lucky to get one bloom on OGR like Madame Isaac Pereire. Folks report 3 years without bloom for that one, so it's worth experimenting.
Bearded Iris? I love them. But my dozen varieties died in my wet bed during spring flood. Our heavy clay becomes mud and chokes out roots when it's wet. Sharon, I would love to see your bearded iris. Thanks for the great pics.
The soil composition has MORE to do with black spots than the type of rose. Take very disease-resistant Austin rose Christopher Marlowe. Last year I induced BS by mulching him with cocoa mulch, sticky & retain moisture with pH 5.6, like alfalfa meal !! Then I made the BS go away by dumping my alkaline clay on top.
Take Frederic Mistral, I posted many pics. of that rose being clean from spring until recently, when I dumped bagged cow manure. He became very pale, and breaking out in B.S. Will have to scrape that off today. I already see salt-damage (brown burns) on the leaves.
THANK YOU, Sharon, for that excellent article on what type of ground cover to use, and types of DR roses like Buxom Beauty. Ground cover doesn't make a rose more BS either, see below Annie L. McDowell, picture taken today, with 3 types of ground cover: Petunia, purple alyssum, and snapdragon. That rose is 100% clean, I put lots of gypsum in the planting hole.
Below link of Dave & Deb garden in Montana, zone 5a. They use white alyssum as ground cover, very pretty.
Here is a link that might be useful: Dave & Deb using white alyssum as ground cover
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Aug 2, 14 at 11:58
I like that white alyssum used as a groundcover! :-)
I actually have a severe headache from researching roses...lol So I'm taking a break from that...
Plus after reading several people had the same exact type of rose planted next to each other and one/some was highly BS resistant and others of the same exact type lost all leaves to BS... Planted next to eack other and receiving same sun, water, etc......:-/
Strawbhill, here even with our native soil and nothing added Heirloom rose bands almost always do well the first season. And sometimes through the second season. After that's when the major BS troubles start...
So if I added things to soil here I would not know really what was working or what was not the first season and sometimes the second...
Roses Unlimited roses the BS troubles start in the first or second growing season...
Same with other vendors that sell larger own root roses.
So to save time from now I will not be purchasing roses from Heirloom Roses or any vendor with the smaller bands...
I will spend more money but I will save time...lol
Ok I'm taking a break for awhile... I'll still be reading your posts and commenting but I'm just not thinking of what roses I will get for alittle bit...lol
This post was edited by jim1961 on Sat, Aug 2, 14 at 17:11
Hi Strawberry, thanks for the info. I'll leave these potted for now and plant at the end of September. They are growing nicely so far, although Sharifa Asma and Jude are slow at taking off, but all the others are coming along nicely. Even my little "Eden" is putting out some nice healthy new growth. Carding Mill has a bit of black spot, should I sprinkle a little gritty lime on the soil and see if this helps? There is lime in the pot plus powdered gypsum. I also have limestone chips and the lava rock that I could use on top instead. It's growing well but I want to control the bs before it gets out of hand.
I hope I have some success with the irises, my beds aren't wet, most are raised and the others slope so don't hold a lot of excess moisture. I just need to find a way to shoe horn everything in. I think I went a wee bit overboard!! but hopefully I'll be rewarded in the spring :-)
Jim~I can understand your burnout. There are so many roses and such differing opinions on all of them. It makes your head spin trying to digest it all. Good luck in your search whenever you're ready.
Hi Jim: I agree, it's impossible to find the perfect rose for one's soil & climate. My climate is a 4-seasons: wet spring, dry & hot summer, and wet fall, plus brutal zone 5a winter. I have to adjust what's on top by the changing seasons: For wet seasons, I top with alkaline stuff, be it gritty lime or horse manure.
For dry seasons, with my high pH 8.3 tap water, I'll top with acidic stuff like cracked corn, or I have to lower my water pH. The health and size of the root determines the health of the rose. I grew 40+ roses from band-size into 2-gallon rootballs. The disease-resistant roses like Blue Mist (multiflora) has solid 2-gallon rootball (very heavy). The BS-prone like Comte de Chambord has rootball 1/20 the size, small like alfalfa sprout.
Putting gypsum in the planting hole helps with BS, because it makes the root becomes solid & woody & stronger to absorb nutrients. At first I thought my high pH alkaline clay, at 7.7 is enough to prevent BS .... Not so, I planted Gene Boerner right into my clay, and it's a BS fest, since its root can't expand in rock-hard clay.
When the soil is too wet, roots decline. My healthiest rose Christopher Marlowe? I dug it up 4 times to fix the drainage, and made the hole 2.5 feet deep, plus putting horse manure at the bottom. When the soil is fluffy & alkaline, with enough calcium & potassium, that's when the root is healthiest. Same with Radio Times, I put 20+ banana peels at the bottom of the hole. Same with Annie L. McDowell, I dug a DEEP HOLE (2.5 feet), and put leaves at the bottom.
The health of the hole determines the health of the plant. If the hole is fluffy & good drainage & alkaline, that's when roses are healthiest. Annie L. McDowell is not perfect, no rose is ever perfect if the soil is acidic. Annie broke out in B.S. when it was in a pot, topped with alfalfa meal (pH 5.7), plus constant rain, with acidic (pH 6.5) & poor drainage potting soil.
I know I would benefit greatly here by using raised beds rather than messing with the native soil.
Besides lots of rain we have a high water table here underground.
I have a bed of 5 Double Knockouts which are doing fantastic! Blooming great and leaves look great from just applying compost SO that bed is ok and I will not make any changes. And best of all no disease...lol
I now have our Mister Lincoln back into a large container because the blooms last much longer in the MG potting soil than they did when he was in the ground... Mister Lincoln got no Blackspot when he was in the ground...And Mister Lincoln does not seem to get BS in the container either so I'm happy with that...lol
Different soils does not seem to effect Mister Lincoln just like they do not seem to effect the Double Knockouts..
Same with the Carefree Sunshines...
Which leads me to believe there are roses that will work here with my current conditions without change.
But on the other hand I think most roses would benefit more from a raised bed under our conditions and would probably make rose growing easier...
Because like you say Strawbhill roses with wet roots can decline... And our soil stays wet probably to wet even though it seems to have good drainage...
And even though I feel some roses could still do well in our native soil.. Most probably would not...
So for some roses I may have to create raised beds...
I have a bed with one Double Knockout in out in the backyard. With flowers filling in all the empy spaces...lol
That area is wetter than the rest of our property. But Double Knockout is doing great in that slop also and so did the Carefree Sunshines...Mister Lincoln was never planted in that area.
All other roses have failed big time in that area so far...
All Flowers are doing well in that wet area also..
So probably I will have to create raised beds in certain areas so hopefully roses will thrive better without much BS ...
This post was edited by jim1961 on Sat, Aug 2, 14 at 19:04
Question for Strawbhill... I applied Tone (Gritty Lime under Thomas Affleck but rains keep washing it away SO do I keep re-applying it?
Just took this pic...
This is the bed of 5 Double Ko's. I tried growing 3 D-Ko's and 2 regular roses in between but no rose worked out so I ended up planting all D- Ko's...
That's why you see a couple spaces that's where the 2 young D-Ko's are located and they are still smaller...
This post was edited by jim1961 on Sat, Aug 2, 14 at 20:36
Hi Sharon: Sorry that I didn't see your last post. With regard to your question "Carding Mill has a bit of black spot, should I sprinkle a little gritty lime? There is lime in the pot plus powdered gypsum. I also have limestone chips and the lava rock."
I put gritty lime in previous pots since I forgot to put gypsum, but wimpy bands won't like such high pH. When it rains, the Encap compost granules with more nutrients is a better buffer than lime.
Soluble fertilizer is recommended for bands. Molasses fits the bill if used with alkaline tap. Tap water has calcium hydroxide which binds with potassium & trace elements. Potassium is essential for blooming & disease-prevention. I have been fixing my tap water for last year's healthy pots, plus current 5-pots, with 1/4 cup molasses, 1/4 cup sulfate of potash, 1 and 1/2 cup water. Use 1 teaspoon of this mix per 1 gallon, to lower my tap pH. Molasses has NPK 3-1-5, plus trace elements. I use that every other day. In University Extension pots experiment, Organic NPK 6-6-6 beat fish emulsion, if used 3 times a week, in diluted doses.
But if it rains, then I don't use the molasses & sulfate of potash ... that would make the soil too acidic and more prone to BS. A few red lava rocks is enough to supply potassium when rain water breaks it down, and some Milorganite NPK 5-2-0 on top helps preventing nitrogen loss during rain.
Bolero is a BS-fest, after I topped that with the bagged cow manure from Menards. Same with last year's horse manure.. first time ever seeing mushrooms in that heap, and first time getting rust on roses. It's safer to use HEATED or DRY stuff like chicken manure, Milorganite, and cracked corn. Below is Carding Mill, picture taken today with 2 buds. Whitish spots are from Heirloom Roses' spraying.
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Aug 3, 14 at 7:36
Strawbhill, you must of missed my posts.
I applied Epsoma Gritty Lime pellets under Thomas Affleck and we got heavy rains which appeared to wash it away should I re-apply?
The directions say once applied it lasts for 4 weeks and its slow release...
So I'm not sure if it disolved or washed away...
I scraped off all the horse manure...
Hi Jim: I love that picture of Knock-out you took, great photography. I enjoy that every time this thread is loaded.
I would re-apply again to neutralize rain pH of 5.6. I put 1 1/2 cup on Radio Times to the point of its leaves being pale. But it blooms very well, at least 20+ blooms despite being next to a tree, and not watered. Calcium helps with drought-tolerance. Gritty lime is useful if there's lots of rain (acidic pH), or with aggressive roots like Radio Times that secret acids, or at the end of heavy blooming (acid-phosphatase).
But gritty lime isn't best for wimpy roots that can't acid-phosphatase and have to be spoon fed with soluble-fertilizer. I won't use that when alkaline tap water is being used .. the pH would be too high.
Radio Times got nothing this year except 2 applications of dry chicken manure NPK 5-3-2, two application of soluble sulfate of potash, and lots of gritty lime. It has only 3 leaves of very minor B.S. (tiny dots) on the bottom. The rest is clean.
The B.S. from the bagged cow manure is different, much larger spots plus leaves become yellow. Half of Bolero bush is affected, this is the 1st time Bolero gets B.S. in 3 years. My roses far away are NOT affected. Will scoop up that cow manure and trash it. Last week I cleaned out the cow manure from Stephen Big Purple and it looks good now, see picture taken today:
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Aug 2, 14 at 22:05
I re-applied Gritty Lime...
That's a darker nice color of bloom on Stephen Big Purple.. Nice!
I think every rose we ever had here bloomed well in our native soil.
No slackers in that department. Most grew well too...
So can't complain much about growth either...
Just that blasted blackspot...lol
This rose was planted in the wettest part of our backyard. It still grew and bloomed well but fell to BS.
A Double Ko is in its exact location right now and doing very well.
Mister Lincoln did well in the ground except blooms fell off the bush to fast... ML was getting 13 hours of sun which may of been the reason why...lol
Thomas Affleck is planted there now and his blooms fall off fairly quickly also...
First few months I grew Mister Lincoln in a large container when I first got him. This was a Heirloom rose baby band I got in May SO you see he surely loves MG potting mix...lol
Mister Lincoln:
Livin Easy from RU in its first season...
Outta the blue and Livin Easy:
This is a Living Easy from RU in its second growing season... It grew very fast here.... But the next year it lost all its leaves...
Sunrise at Heirloom also bloomed very well..
This here is a rose that was here when I moved into our house in 1995... Later I dug it out and my mom transplanted it at her house. This pic was taken at my moms. I dug out rose in 2007...Wish I would of kept it now....
I have no idea what kind it is...? I do know it bloomed solid like that with no fertilizer when it was here...
It gets no fertilizer at my moms either... Very little Blackspot....No fragrance
Took this pic last fall out our bathroom window:
This post was edited by jim1961 on Sat, Aug 2, 14 at 23:27
Hi Jim: Wow! I enjoy all the pictures you posted, esp. the last two. I wish folks would grow more roses like that red one ... so cheerful. Jim, you have the best view ever, so scenic, lovely with the mountains. I don't have the mountains here, except my tall trees. Something about the mountains with trees that is so cozy !!
After filling 3 yard-waste bags with heavy roses canes this spring, I'm convinced that roses require far more calcium to make those canes than tomatoes (only 1 light bag). Radio Times gain a BIG GROWTH spurt after my giving it gritty lime. And roses with gypsum in the planting hole, or many layers of piled-up horse manure (with lime) are cleanest in my garden. From eHow, calcium is the second most important nutrient for plants.
For Sharon: For hot & dry weather, here is a comparison between Pennington Alaska tea NPK 4-6-6, versus using Molasses NPK 3-2-5, plus sulfate of potash.
1) Molasses has zero salt, plus high in iron, 1 TBS has 15% iron, 10% calcium, and 20% potassium. Iron helps bands to grow faster. Potassium & calcium in 2:1 ratio stimulates the best root growth. I see faster growth with Molasses as soluble fertilizer for bands in hot & dry weather. Draw back: eHow stated that molasses promotes fungal growth in compost, so I won't use it when the weather is wet & rainy. However, Kelp4less put dry molasses in their soluble fertilizer to promote mycorrhyzal fungal .. that's the fungi that helps with phosphorus-uptake for blooming. I see soluble molasses at root zone as beneficial, but molasses on the soil-surface as feeding black spots, such as molasses in alfalfa pellets that are scattered on the ground.
2) Pennington tea NPK 4-6-6 has Kelp Meal, was effective in making my tomato's leaves dark-green. Draw back? Kelp has salt. Its high phosphorus ratio would be useful for stingy roses. I tested both molasses and Pennington tea on my recent 5 bands, and I see faster growth spurt with molasses/sulfate of potash, most likely from the low-salt & high iron. For stingy roses, Pennington tea works well in promoting blooms.
The 1st year I put alfalfa meal under horse manure: clean but too much foliage, and very few blooms. My next experiment is alfalfa hay under gritty lime: gritty lime on top would suppress fungal germination, and alfalfa below would promote more leaves.
Alfalfa Hay is better than alfalfa-meal for my clay, less glue up. Plus hay is cheaper than meal. Most likely I mix that with top soil to winterize my roses, since it takes longer for hay to break down for spring-flush. I learn than from GERDA with the best garden in HMF. She's in Russia.
Alfalfa meal has a high percentage of calcium. See below link: its calcium content is 1.25%, compare to 0.23% phosphorus. That's 5.4 times more calcium than phosphorus. Alfalfa meal NPK is 2-1-2, which means 2 part nitrogen, 1 phosphorus, 2 part potassium, and 5.4 part calcium.
See below Liv Tyler rose as gallon size, I put too much alfalfa meal in the planting hole: vigorous growth, too much foliage (but clean), and zero bloom. Some sites report alfalfa meal NPK to be 5-1-2, that's more like it.
Here is a link that might be useful: Calcium content of alfalfa meal
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Aug 3, 14 at 9:20
Hi Jim: I tried to locate the identity of the mystery red rose in your previous pics ... the one at your Mom's house. It looks like a multiflora or polyantha. Some polyanthas have multiflora parentage, with SURFACE cluster-root, which can handle acidic, wet & poor drainage clay.
Tammy in TN with very acidic clay grows the 7-dwarfs series sold at Burlington roses. They are compact & polyantha roses. Their leaves are small & similar to the red-bush at your Mom. See below link for "Doc" rose in HMF:
Here is a link that might be useful: Doc rose in 7 Dwarfs-series sold at Burlington
I got Baby Fauraux, a polyantha from Burlington. It's small & compact with shallow roots ... smells amazing (spicy yummy, great scent). It HATED my alkaline clay, was pale & only bloom when there's tons of rain.
See link for pic. of the next dwarf in the 7-dwarfs-roses sold at Burlington for $11 per band. It's "Dopey" with cluster-red blooms & small leaves similar to your mystery red-rose:
Here is a link that might be useful: Dopey rose in the 7-Dwarfs series
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Aug 3, 14 at 9:08
Excellenz von Schubert, or EVS, has cluster-blooms & small leaves, and VERY DISEASE RESISTANT. I put an ungodly amount of sulfur, tons of acidic pine bark, plus give it grapefruit, lemon juice and NOT a speck of BS on that one. I have the rain-spout pours directly on my EVS, since I know its cluster-root can handle wetness.
See below link for EVS in HMF. Cluster-blooming & small leaves & preference for wet & acidic clay ... are indicative of multiflora parentage. The polyanthas with violet & blue colors often have multiflora parentage.
Here is a link that might be useful: Excellenz von Schubert rose in HMF
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Aug 3, 14 at 9:14
Here's another polyantha, "Gloria Mundi" sold at Burlington. Bright orange, with small leaves very much like the disease-resistant Annie L. McDowell.
Here is a link that might be useful: Gloria Mundi polyantha in HMF
Here's Grumpy rose in the 7-dwarfs series, grown by Tammy in very acidic clay & high-rain TN:
Here is a link that might be useful: Grumpy rose in 7-dwarfs series
Here's Heinrich Karsch, polyantha sold at Burlington. Cluster-blooms & small leaves. It's my dream rose, if I can fix my soil to be acidic for the violet color to show through.
Here is a link that might be useful: Heinrich Karsch polyantha in cold zone
Here's "Sleepy rose" in the 7-dwarfs series. Burlington roses ships roses in medium-flat-rate box, so it's the same price shipping for 6 roses versus lesser amount.
Here is a link that might be useful: Sleepy rose in the 7-dwarfs series
Here's Verdun, red polyantha, and Seil's most-blooms rose & sold at Burlington. Similar to your "mystery-red" rose with cluster blooms & small leaves:
Here is a link that might be useful: Verdun rose in HMF
Hi Jim: Here's a pic. in HMF that shows the blooms of 6 dwarfs in the 7-dwarfs-rose-series. 3 of them are red & cluster blooming with small leaves. They look similar to your "mystery-red-rose".
Here is a link that might be useful: Blooms of 6 dwarfs in the 7-dwarfs-rose-series
Finally located "Happy rose" in the 7-dwarfs series. It's red, sold as "Alberich rose", closest match to your "mystery red rose". See below:
Here is a link that might be useful: Happy in the 7-dwarfs-rose-series
Here's "Bashful rose" in the 7-dwarfs series. My experience with polyantha & multiflora rose? Require lots of rain & wetness to bloom. My Blue Mist is very disease-resistant, but blooms best in wet spring and wet fall ... always clean while others have BS.
Here is a link that might be useful: Bashful rose
Last is "Sneezy" of 7-dwarfs-series.
Here is a link that might be useful: Sneezy rose
Jim: Found another match for your "Mystery red rose", it might be Miss Edith Cavell, since I found an extremely pale pic. of that grown in alkaline soil .. see below link:
Burlington sells Miss Edith Cavell, also Orange Miss Edith Cavell. I once asked Burling: "What's your most beautiful bush besides "Blue Mist"? Here's her reply from her nursery in CA of 800+ roses: "Of the roses that you have listed, I favor the following due to repeat and plentiful blooms: Too Cute, , San Francisco Sunset, , Alfalfa, Anda, Petite Francoise, Britannia, Verdun, Heinrich Karsch, Orange Miss Edith Cavell"
She also sells Baptist La Faye, a multiflora/polyantha that prefers acidic soil. Polyantha/multiflora like Blue Mist can be stunning & beautiful when in full blooms, see below my Blue Mist when it was band-size in a pot:
Here is a link that might be useful: Miss Edith Cavell polyantha in HMF
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Aug 3, 14 at 10:55
Our mystery rose: Our neighbor said it was here when she moved into her house next door in 1975... We moved into our house in 1995 20 years later. So the rose is quite old...
40+ years old now...lol
I will have to take the time later to completely read over all your posts Strawbhill...
Guess what? It rained hard again last night so my re-applied application of Gritty Lime got awful wet...lol
It suppose to rain again today SO should I re-appply the Gritty Lime maybe tomorrow? Weather looks clear for awhile after today...
I should of looked at our weather forecast yesterday...lol
Hi Jim: I would wait to see how pale your rose become ... too much gritty lime can raise the pH, and less blooms.
I was looking through the polyanthas that Burling offers. There's Fairy Queen, cluster-red-blooms. I'm happy with Marie Pavie & Marie Daly being disease resistant in my garden (both are almost thornless & fragrant). Here's a comment on Fairy Queen in HMF:
"This is a wonderful rose, always full of beautiful blooms. Very resistant to diseases. Great for any garden area that you want to fill in with a lot of bright color."
The more I research, the more I notice polyantha roses with multiflora-parentage are best for acidic & wet & poor drainage clay. Jean, or Harbor Rose, in acidic soil and high-rain PNW grows lots of polyanthas from Burlington roses.
Here is a link that might be useful: Fairy Queen polyantha in HMF
Burlington roses sells this unique orange & fragrant polyantha "Sunshine", also Sweet Chariot, a lavender & fragrant polyantha. Seeing how clean Annie L. McDowell is, makes me tempted to get more polyanthas.
Here is a link that might be useful: Fragrant, orange polyantha
Thanks to Jim's "mystery-red-rose", I found a bunch of very disease-resistant polyanthas like "Sweet Pea" sold at Burlington Roses. I'm getting sick of black spots with my rain-barrel water.
Here's a comment in HMF about Sweet Pea polyantha "This rose needs no spraying at all. I live where it's very humid and have never seen bs or fungal issues. Leave her be and she'll appreciate it. Of course you should probably fertilize once in a while though."
Here is a link that might be useful: Sweet pea polyantha sold by Burlington
I love my Marie Pavie polyantha. I never water it, and fertilize only once a year. It's nearly thornless & perfumes my garden. Robert Neil Rippetoe in his sandy & 100 degrees CA garden also recommends polyantha "Leonie Lamesch". It has multiflora parent Aglaia. Here's a comment in HMF about Leonie Lamesch:
"I can't kill this rose! I have it in a whiskey barrel that stopped draining right around the time it started to rain for 40 days and 40 nights; it took about 2 months before I could handle it and Leonie just shrugged it all off. The deer have taken all the leaves off on more than 1 occasion and it just grows more and will even flower while doing it."
Here is a link that might be useful: Leonie Lamesch polyantha
Did you notice that the rose Dopey had Blackspot in that pic? I look at leaves in pics more than the bloom itself...lol
Excellenz von Schubert is a climber and probably too big for here...
Pics of Gloria Mundi on HMF show tons of BS on leaves in a pic I seen.
I'll check out the other roses you posted a bit later...
Mystery rose: You mentioned it might be Miss Edith Cavell polyantha. HMF says that rose only grows to 2 ft...
Mystery Rose is like 7-8 ft high...
Fairy Queen is a nice colorful rose! Very nice!
That Fragrant, orange polyantha is very nice too!
Sweet Pea is a real nice color but HMF states the blooms are only 1.25 inches in size. They look bigger than that in the pics?
We won't be trying any light colored pink roses as we prefer the darker pinks. And no more red roses because of all the red Double Ko's we have...lol
I might try two light colored roses but that will be it because of our insect problems... 3 inch plus bloom size though... I'm looking at trying two Prarie Harvest roses.
We have a bed with one red Double Ko in it. I'm thinking of placing a Prarie Harvest on each side of the Ko...
I may look into the Drift Roses but only if they grow low to the ground. Might use a low growing rose in front of a larger rose bush...????
Too much for me to process at one time...lol...Getting my rose headache again...lol
This post was edited by jim1961 on Sun, Aug 3, 14 at 18:52
Hi Jim: That's funny, "rose headache" ... I have a "BS or blackspot headache" on a few roses. I decide NOT to scrape off the cow manure. I'm waiting for the rain, but it hasn't come yet. For more than a week the weather forecast says it's going to rain everyday, but it hasn't.
Your mystery rose is a rare one .. might be possible to get a baby-plant for yourself?? My Blue Mist root ball was so big, I should had chopped it into halves when I took it out of the pot, to make 2 plants.
The cow manure is BAD, so is the "organic rose-food" that was given to me. It's a white bottle, with some brown liquid inside ... looks like molasses, but didn't smell like it. It could be just vinegar and diluted molasses. I should had trashed that liquid-food away, but I "just had to experiment".
I love your bush-shot of "Out the Blue", and what's the names of the last 2 pictures you added of the shiny leaves, and the dark pink rose bush? Mine EVS (excellenz von Schubert) gets only 4 hours of sun, almost thornless, and smells great. It's 2' x 2' in its second year. Below is a bush-shot of Excellenz von Schubert that Seaweed in southern CA sent to me earlier this year:
Hi Jim: Thanks for giving me the height of the Mystery rose as 7' tall. It might be "My Stars" rose, almost thornless. see link below. Here's the comment made by Paul Barden in HMF: "The plant in this photo is 6 feet tall, 7 feet across and is four years old from a cutting in a band pot! This is one of the BEST garden shrubs I have ever grown: rounded, full foliage, no disease and bountiful bloom. Highly recommended."
I grew "Gina's rose", a sister of "My Stars" but darker color. My Gina's Rose is thornless & very DR, see picture below. See link below for "My Stars" as being 7' tall:
Here is a link that might be useful: My Stars rose bred by Ralph Moore in HMF
I have compost around our Double Ko roses. Outside the dripline of the bushes I still have shredded wood mulch.
I decided today to remove more of the wood mulch because in the fall I'm going to spread compost over the entire bed.
I'm not going to buy anymore wood mulch (keeps our soil to wet here)
Anyhow while removing the mulch in areas that do not get disturbed there was white strands of fungi under the mulch. Strands were wrapped around the mulch chips...
A good or a bad fungi???
Livin Easy and outta the Blue leaves were shiny...
Somewhere I have a close up pic of Mystery roses bloom...
Found it! Close up of Mysery roses blooms...
This post was edited by jim1961 on Sun, Aug 3, 14 at 23:27
Took this pic at 9:35am this morning. Notice dew still on roses. Dew started forming about 10:30pm last night so these leaves have been wet for 11 hours so far...
But this is Mister Lincoln and for whatever reason he is Blackspot resistant here and the water doesn't bother him being on the leaves that long under Blackspot pressure...
Hi Jim: Thanks for posting that close-up of "Mystery-red-rose". The leaves and blooms are perfect match to "My Stars" rose, bred by Ralph Moore.
Your Mister Lincoln's leaves is described by HMF as "Matte, dark green, leathery foliage." It's looks like the "leathery" leaves on my Crimson Glory, very BS-resistant here ... that one loves all-week rain. Seems like the more rain, the healthier Crimson Glory is.
I did advanced search in HMF under "Habit", then under "Leathery leaves" ... lots of Gallica showed up, see link below. In my garden, either very thick & glossy foliage, or matte & leathery leaves are most disease-resistant. The thickest leaves in my garden belong to Kordes Flower Carpet, next is Annie L. McDowell & EVS. The thin leaves like Count de Chambord is most wimpy and BS-fest.
Here is a link that might be useful: Leathery leaves roses in HMF
Glossy leaves never made a difference here with BS so far but I only tried 2 roses with glossy leaves. Lincolns leaves are leathery.
BUT Mister Lincoln is BS and Mildew prone in many areas of the country...
So leads me to believe there must be another reason why ML is BS and PM resistant here...
Actually I left out one detail about the Mystery Rose..
The blooms are only 1.5 inch to 2 inches...
HMF states Ralph Moores rose My Stars has 3" blooms...
So probably not it...
I had a decent amount of Aphids on our Mister Lincoln last couple of weeks. Aphids do not hurt much here so I usually just let them go.
But anyhow after watching that video about Brewers Yeast that guy mentioned about laying bananas peels at the foot of the roses and that will chase away Aphids.
I've been experimenting for awhile now with that idea but I can honestly say that does not work here at all... lol
Even the Brewers Yeast experiment is a bust here... I did not see much approvement to warrant using it... So I'll just finish out the jar by taking it myself as it does give me energy...
Another thing I'm experimenting with is Marigolds... I have Marigolds planted throughout the Double Ko bed and some around Thomas Affleck. I usually have moderate to major rose slug (Sawfly) damage on our rose leaves... This year we hardly have any damage on the leaves of roses that have Marigolds planted near the bushes.
Mister Lincoln has moderate rose slug damage but he is in a container with NO Marigolds around or near him...
So next year I will plant Blue Petunias instead of Marigolds and see what happens...
Does it work or is it just a fluke??? I don't know...lol
(Just took this pic a few minutes ago...)
This post was edited by jim1961 on Mon, Aug 4, 14 at 17:32
Lovely garden, Jim! Yellow looks good with red knock-outs. You are right about that Mystery rose: it's smaller blooms in cluster, versus big-singular bloom in "My Stars".
You are right on Marigolds that attract rose slugs. Field Roebuck in Texas wrote in his book about roses that marigolds are spider-mites magnets... perhaps they are rose-slugs magnets also.
I stay away from high nitrogen fertilizer, since it promotes aphids. One of my recent experiment of putting sunflower oil in the water: tons of aphids exploding on Rose du Roi. They like that oily stuff.
Surprisingly my pots do much better with my fixing alkaline-tap with molasses & gypsum & sulfate of potash than with rain water alone. Roses in pots grew well last year with that stuff. This year I skip the gypsum in that soluble-fertilizer, since I already put gypsum in the potting soil. Below is 6-months old Yves seedling grew from a rose seed, fertilized with that soluble, it's 100% clean.
I get the idea from the soy-bean farm-report that sulfate of potash and lime pellets beat fungicides in yield. I'm convinced that sufficient potassium and calcium is the key to stronger & thicker leaves to fight diseases. Unfortunately as the pH drops, all 3 nutrients go down: less bacteria to fix nitrogen in soil, and less calcium and potassium available.
I'm using Gardenvile Sea Tea on Mister Lincoln. I feed him weekly in that container. Feeding every two weeks did not seem like enough so changed to weekly... I get aphids on roses I never even fertilized except for the compost. lol
You misunderstood Strawbhill... Every year since 2007 we have been getting moderate damage to all our roses from Rose Slugs...
This year I planted the Marigolds and for the first time we hardly have any damage on most all our roses that have Marigolds planted next to them
Mister Lincoln has bad damage from rose slugs but he has NO Marigolds near him.
So it appears that Marigolds are repelling rose slugs...
I just contacted David Zlesak from the University Of Wisconsin. Coordinator of the Northern Earth-Kind® Rose Trials (purpose is to identify well-adapted, low maintenance landscape roses for there northern Midwest region).
Anyhow David Zlesak has studied Blackspot for many years and uses scientific equipment and information.
I asked him some questions on Blackspot and I hope he gets back to me...
Interesting roses I just seen. They are from Kordes and tsome get 10-18 inches high and spread 36 inches...
I will look into these to see if anyone is selling them...
Ever hear of these?
I looked at other websites and they claim height can be 2ft so I'm confused...
Here is a link that might be useful: Kordes roses
This post was edited by jim1961 on Mon, Aug 4, 14 at 20:04
Hi Jim and Strawberry~I'm still reading just not posting as much.
Jim~I love your theory on marigolds. I would love to plant some but the garden slugs eat them down to nothing overnight and we have plenty of garden slugs!! I think I might have rose slugs though, something is definitely munching away at my roses leaves although I haven't seen any of the nasty little critters. I also have what I believe is anthracnose now!! the battle seems to forever rage on! Any suggestions on control besides the garden almanac of destroying ALL infected plants, lol, if I followed their advice I wouldn't have any roses left.
I have seen pics of the Kordes Vigorosa roses, very pretty. They also have the veranda series which has one that looks just like Eden Rose (pic from Palentine) that is on my buy list for next year... I know another JB and Thrips magnet but so pretty. These are listed as similar size range but Palentine lists as 2-3 feet for either series, Chamblee's list at 2 feet so I'm not sure where the 10-18 inch size comes from.
Strawberry~ How do you keep your roses so pest free? It seems that you have little to no leaf damage from hungry marauders!!
Also my munstead wood is covered in black spot so it doesn't seem to be as resistant as everyone thought although you could probably work your magic with this rose too :-). They're still in pots so I'm not sure if that's a contributing factor or not since all my other potted roses are doing well in this area. Plus the prickles are nasty, way way more than Darcy has but the MW has still been putting out a ton of blooms. I wonder what the vendors used for fertilizer. These are 1 year grafted bare root Austins.
Sorry to hear about your munstead wood having more than its share of BS...
Some of our roses in the past got anthracnose disease... We had a decent amount of leaf drop but not as bad as blackspot..
anthracnose disease the middle of the spot will fall out after awhile leaving a small hole...
Sadly Marigolds draw bad insects too that eat there leaves. We planted some Marigolds on a grave-site and something ate all the leaves off back in June. Leaves have since come back and the Marigolds are blooming like crazy at the grave-site..
I'm going to plant something else next year to see if our rose slug damage increases or not...
We get Aphids here but not enough to hurt anything...
No JB's unless I plant light colored roses. I have not see even one JB this year yet.
I found that certain roses and excess fertilizer applied that causes fast new growth on roses will attract bad insects...
I have seen no other signs of rose Midge here since I got rid of the two Carefree Sunshines.
I think the Rose Midge were in the pots when the vendor shipped them to me....
This post was edited by jim1961 on Tue, Aug 5, 14 at 13:52
Hi Sharon: Glad to hear from you. What's the name of that beautiful blushing white rose that you posted? I love that picture !! Munstead Wood is Seaweed's best bloomer in alkaline CA, versus stingiest Lady Emma. Seaweed has alkaline soil and water.
If your Munstead Wood is grafted on Dr. Huey, it can takes alkalinity well. One approach is mixing 2 tablespoon of gritty lime with 2 teaspoons of granular sulfate of potash (NPK 0-0-50), or chopped up banana peels (0-3-42). Calcium is best balanced with equal amount of potassium. Potassium is needed for disease-prevention.
When I first moved here to rock-hard-alkaline clay, pH 7.7, my neighbor planted a dozen roses grafted on Dr. Huey, and watered with our pH 8.3 hard-water. His was blooming non-stop, 100% clean, vigorous, he was cutting blooms every day. I was puzzled: I had just moved from acidic clay, with wimpy BS-fest, stingy roses
Went out to check my roses after all-night & all morning rain (12 hours): The roses with 1/4 cup gritty lime & 2 teas. sulfate of potash are clean: W.S. 2000, Golden Celebration, and Romantica Sweet Promise. The 5-bands in pots with compost & few red lava rocks & Milorganite are 100% clean.
The rose in the ground & poor drainage heavy clay with the most Milorganite, Wise Portia, has B.S., most likely from the salt in Milorganite (sewage sludge), NPK 5-2-0. Milorganite with 4% iron is great for bands in fast-draining pots, but NOT best for roses that don't need much iron, or for poor-drainage clay that retains salt.
One lady killed over a dozen rose bushes by using Mills' Magic Mix every month on her roses in hot summer. Mills Magic Mix has Milorganite for its nitrogen and phosphorus. Since my heavy clay retains salt too well, I'm going back to alfalfa (NPK 2-1-2) with less phosphorus & more potassium, zero salt. I'll buy alfalfa hay or pellets, rather than alfalfa meal, because it's slower-release & cheaper. I'll put gritty lime (pH 9) or COMPOSTED horse manure (pH 8) on top of alfalfa, so no pest nor fungi can germinate on acidic alfalfa, pH 5.7.
Sewage sludge is high in salt, OK for lawn or fasting-draining pots, but not best for roses in heavy clay. In my experiments, roses break out in fungal diseases when they are stressed out, such as: 1) salt as in manure & Milorganite 2) standing wetness from poor-drainage 3) too much acid, like my lowering tap water with lemon juice 4) harsh chemicals, like MiracleGro soluble with high NPK 5) too much phosphorus, as in the bagged cow manure.
Hi Jim: I agree that Rose Midge can come from elsewhere, such as Peter Schneider's comment in his book that horse manure gave his garden rose midge. Peter grows over 1,000 roses in Ohio, sandy soil.
Most likely last year's FRESH horse manure (with tons of mushrooms and decayed straws) gave my roses rust. This year zero rust, despite early summer's 1-month rain. NO horse manure this year. At first I thought too much gypsum on top induced rust, but I tested that recently, putting a wad of gypsum on my smallest rose, Angel Face. Its leaves became wilted just like Crimson Glory did with gypsum-topping. The wilting is from the 17% sulfur in gypsum, that stuff burns my finger, plus corroded the metal scoop.
Earthworm hates gypsum and sulfur. I prefer Encap Dry Compost to break up my hard clay, rather than gypsum. The holes with too much gypsum, like my 2nd tomato-bed: not much fruits on those tomatoes .. excess calcium drive down potassium. Potassium is necessary for blooming, disease-prevention, and drought-tolerance. Those tomatoes are the most wilted in this hot August.
Thank you, Jim and Sharon, for posting in this thread. Finally found the best site with pics. to identify plants' deficiencies ... great reference, see below link:
Here is a link that might be useful: Best site to identify nutrient deficiencies in plants
This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Aug 5, 14 at 16:51
I have picked about 12 ripe tomatoes so far off our Tomato plants...yum yum!
When I planted the tomatoes in mid May I applied some Life 5-5-5 (Dr Earth Fertilizer) to use up and get rid of it...lol
The Tomato plants have been on there own since then and I have not even had to water them by hand. I let the rain do all the work...lol
I only plant the more disease resistant tomato plants.
Our neighbors tomato plants in pots got fungus as they were not very resistant... His tomato plants were only 1-4 ft from ours...Our tomato plants never got the fungus.
So just like roses I have to plant disease resistant tomato plants too...lol
Humm, now I am hungry... One tomato sandwich coming up... :-)
Hi Jim~ I'm hoping to get the bs on MW under control soon. I'm not really that impressed with it. It flowers a lot and the roses smell wonderful but the bush is not very attractive even prior to the bs and it has tons of thorns. I'll still plant these though until I find a good substitute. I really want roses that have fragrance as well as beauty. Is that too much to ask?
Hi Strawberry~ Thanks again for all the recommendations and links. I'll try this tomorrow and see if I get some improvement. It could be the potting soil too. This rose is from a different vendor so the soil might be more acidic than in my other pots although I haven't done a cabbage test on it to find out for sure. This definitely is a hit or miss venture but I'm determined to grow roses!!
My Honey Bouquet bloomed. It is beautiful and so big for such a tiny plant.
The rose is Kordes Pompon Veranda rose and looks stunning. It has gotten mixed reviews here but isn't it gorgeous? I think I HAVE to buy this one even without stellar reviews. The flowers are small though 1 1/2 inch to 2 inches but look stunning. I'm looking for smaller roses as front of border plants and the Kordes Veranda series sounds like it would work perfectly. Rose Unlimited lists this one on her sight so I'll be ordering this late fall before it sells out.
I hope you get that BS under control on MW enchantedrose...
And yes your Kordes Pompon Veranda rose bloom looks fantastic!
Every rose will get mixed reviews. The important thing is whether it does well for you or not...
Knockout is the most disease resistant rose that does well in the most locations than any other rose.
Over 80 million Knockout Roses were sold as of 2013...
Yes over 80 million!
But even Knockouts get blackspot in some areas of the country.
Knockouts get very bad powdery mildew in some locations that they can not even grow it...
I've decided on four roses so far for next year...
Plum Perfect ( Kordes 2013) (Deep Lavender blooms)
Prairie Harvest ( Buck) (white with yellow center blooms...)
EarthSong (Buck) (Pink blooms)
Easy Does it (Harkness England) (Orange/pink blooms)
I tried this rose once before and I liked it very much so I'm going to try it again in a totally different location than before this time...
This post was edited by jim1961 on Tue, Aug 5, 14 at 21:14
Hi Sharon: Yes, Honey Bouquet bloom is very big for a floribunda. I love that Kordes Pompon Veranda's look of pink & white.
Hi Jim: I got lots of cherry tomatoes and about 10 big ones. The taste is too sour this year. Last year I mulched my tomatoes with cocoa mulch (high in potassium & trace elements) ... and got more tomatoes & sweeter tasting. Will have to do that again for the next rain.
I'll start another thread since this one is too long.