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In recreational mathematics, a magic square of order n is an arrangement of n2 numbers, usually distinct integers, in a square, such that the n numbers in all rows, all columns, and both diagonals sum to the same constant.[1] A normal magic square contains the integers from 1 to n2. The term "magic square" is also sometimes used to refer to any of various types of word square.
Normal magic squares exist for all orders n ≥ 1 except n = 2, although the case n = 1 is trivial, consisting of a single cell containing the number 1. The smallest nontrivial case, shown below, is of order 3.
The constant sum in every row, column and diagonal is called the magic constant or magic sum, M. The magic constant of a normal magic square depends only on n and has the value
For normal magic squares of order n = 3, 4, 5, ..., the magic constants are:
Magic squares were known to Chinese mathematicians, as early as 650 BCE[2] and Arab mathematicians, possibly as early as the 7th century, when the Arabs conquered northwestern parts of the Indian subcontinent and learned Indian mathematics and astronomy, including other aspects of combinatorial mathematics.[citation needed] The first magic squares of order 5 and 6 appear in an encyclopedia from Baghdad circa 983 CE, the Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity (Rasa'il Ihkwan al-Safa); simpler magic squares were known to several earlier Arab mathematicians.[2] Some of these squares were later used in conjunction with magic letters as in (Shams Al-ma'arif) to assist Arab illusionists and magicians.[3]
Chinese literature dating from as early as 650 BC tells the legend of Lo Shu or "scroll of the river Lo".[2] In ancient China there was a huge flood. The great king Yu (禹) tried to channel the water out to sea where then emerged from the water a turtle with a curious figure/pattern on its shell; circular dots of numbers which were arranged in a three by three grid pattern such that the sum of the numbers in each row, column and diagonal was the same: 15, which is also the number of days in each of the 24 cycles of the Chinese solar year. This pattern, in a certain way, was used by the people in controlling the river.
4 | 9 | 2 |
3 | 5 | 7 |
8 | 1 | 6 |
The Lo Shu Square, as the magic square on the turtle shell is called, is the unique normal magic square of order three in which 1 is at the bottom and 2 is in the upper right corner. Every normal magic square of order three is obtained from the Lo Shu by rotation or reflection.
The Square of Lo Shu is also referred to as the Magic Square of Saturn.
Magic squares have fascinated humanity throughout the ages, and have been around for over 4,120 years[citation needed]. They are found in a number of cultures, including Egypt[citation needed] and India, engraved on stone or metal and worn as talismans, the belief being that magic squares had astrological and divinatory qualities, their usage ensuring longevity and prevention of diseases.
The Kubera-Kolam is a floor painting used in India which is in the form of a magic square of order three. It is essentially the same as the Lo Shu Square, but with 19 added to each number, giving a magic constant of 72.
23 | 28 | 21 |
22 | 24 | 26 |
27 | 20 | 25 |
Although a definitive judgement of early history of magic squares is not available, it has been suggested that magic squares are probably of pre-Islamic Persian origin.[4] The study of magic squares in medieval Islam in Persia is however common, and supposedly, came after the introduction of Chess in Persia.[5] For instance in the tenth century, the Persian mathematician Buzjani has left a manuscript on page 33 of which there is a series of magic squares, which are filled by numbers in arithmetic progression in such a way that the sums on each line, column and diagonal are equal.[6]
Magic squares were known to Islamic mathematicians, possibly as early as the 7th century, when the Arabs came into contact with Indian culture, and learned Indian mathematics and astronomy, including other aspects of combinatorial mathematics. It has also been suggested that the idea came via China. The first magic squares of order 5 and 6 appear in an encyclopedia from Baghdad circa 983 AD, the Rasa'il Ikhwan al-Safa (the Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity); simpler magic squares were known to several earlier Arab mathematicians.[2]
The Arab mathematician Ahmad al-Buni, who worked on magic squares around 1250 A.D., attributed mystical properties to them, although no details of these supposed properties are known. There are also references to the use of magic squares in astrological calculations, a practice that seems to have originated with the Arabs.[2]
The 3x3 magic square was used as part of rituals in India from vedic times, and continues to be used to this day. The Ganesh yantra is a 3x3 magic square. A well known early 4x4 magic square in India can be seen in Khajuraho in the Parshvanath Jain temple. It dates from the 10th century.[7]
7 | 12 | 1 | 14 |
2 | 13 | 8 | 11 |
16 | 3 | 10 | 5 |
9 | 6 | 15 | 4 |
This is referred to as the Chautisa Yantra, since each row, column, diagonal, 2x2 sub-square, the corners of each 3x3 and 4x4 square, the two sets of four symmetrical numbers (1+11+16+6 and 2+12+15+5), and the sum of the middle two entries of the two outer columns and rows (12+1+6+15 and 2+16+11+5), sums to 34.
In this square, every second diagonal number adds to 17. Apart from squares, 8 trapeziums (2 in one direction) and the others at a rotation of 90 degrees, such as (12, 1, 16, 5) and (13, 8, 9, 4). Apart from trapeziums, 4 triangles are also present, where 3 numbers connect to a corner, such as the numbers 2, 3, 15 connect to 14 form a triangle. This triangle can also be rotated by 90 degrees.
In 1300, building on the work of the Arab Al-Buni, Greek Byzantine scholar Manuel Moschopoulos wrote a mathematical treatise on the subject of magic squares, leaving out the mysticism of his predecessors.[8] Moschopoulos was essentially unknown to the Latin west. He was not, either, the first Westerner to have written on magic squares. They appear in a spanish manuscript written in the 1280s, presently in the Biblioteca Vaticana (cod. Reg. Lat. 1283a) due to Alfonso X of Castille [9]. In that text, each magic square is assigned to the respective planet, as in the Islamic literature. [10]. Magic squares surface again in Italy in the XIV century, and specifically in Florence. In fact, a 6x6 and a 9x9 square are exhibited in a manuscript of the Trattato d'Abbaco (Treatise of the Abacus) by Paolo dell'Abbaco, aka Paolo Dagomari, a mathematician, astronomer and astrologer who was, among other things, in close contact with Jacopo Alighieri, a son of Dante. The squares can be seen on folios 20 and 21 of MS. 2433, at the Biblioteca Universitaria of Bologna. They also appear on folio 69rv of Plimpton 167, a manuscript copy of the Trattato dell'Abbaco from the XV century in the Library of Columbia University.[11]. It is interesting to observe that Paolo Dagomari, like Pacioli after him, refers to the squares as a useful basis for inventing mathematical questions and games, and does not mention any magical use. Incidentally, though, he also refers to them as being respectively the Sun's and the Moon's squares, and mentions that they enter astrological calculations that are not better specified. As said, the same point of view seems to motivate the fellow Florentine Luca Pacioli, who describes 3x3 to 9x9 squares in his work De Viribus Quantitatis [12]. Pacioli states: A lastronomia summamente hanno mostrato li supremi di quella commo Ptolomeo, al bumasar ali, al fragano, Geber et gli altri tutti La forza et virtu de numeri eserli necessaria (The supreme masters of Astronomy, such as Ptolemy, Albumasar, Alfraganus, Geber and all the others, have shown that the force and the virtue of numbers are necessary to that science) and then goes on to describe the seven planetary squares, with no mention of magical applications.
Magic squares of order 3 through 9, assigned to the seven planets, and described as means to attract the influence of planets and their angels (or demons) during magical practices, can be found in several manuscripts all around Europe starting at least since the XV century. Among the best known, the Liber de Angelis, a magical handbook written around 1440, is included in Cambridge Univ. Lib. MS Dd.xi.45[13]. The text of the Liber de Angelis is very close to that of De septem quadraturis planetarum seu quadrati magici, another handbook of planetary image magic contained in the Codex 793 della Biblioteka Jagiellońska (Ms BJ 793) [14]. The magical operations involve engraving the appropriate square on a plate made with the metal assigned to the corresponding planet[15], as well as performing a variety of rituals. For instance, the 3x3 square, that belongs to Saturn, has to be inscribed on a lead plate. It will, in particular, help women during a difficult childbirth.
In 1514 Albrecht Dürer immortalizes a 4x4 square in his famous engraving "Melancholia I".
In about 1510 Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa wrote De Occulta Philosophia, drawing on the Hermetic and magical works of Marsilio Ficino and Pico della Mirandola. In its 1531 edition, he expounded on the magical virtues of the seven magical squares of orders 3 to 9, each associated with one of the astrological planets, much in the same way as the older texts did. This book was very influential throughout Europe until the counter-reformation, and Agrippa's magic squares, sometimes called Kameas, continue to be used within modern ceremonial magic in much the same way as he first prescribed.[2][16]
The most common use for these Kameas is to provide a pattern upon which to construct the sigils of spirits, angels or demons; the letters of the entity's name are converted into numbers, and lines are traced through the pattern that these successive numbers make on the kamea. In a magical context, the term magic square is also applied to a variety of word squares or number squares found in magical grimoires, including some that do not follow any obvious pattern, and even those with differing numbers of rows and columns. They are generally intended for use as talismans. For instance the following squares are: The Sator square, one of the most famous magic squares found in a number of grimoires including the Key of Solomon; a square "to overcome envy", from The Book of Power;[17] and two squares from The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage, the first to cause the illusion of a superb palace to appear, and the second to be worn on the head of a child during an angelic invocation:
The order-4 magic square in Albrecht Dürer's engraving Melencolia I is believed to be the first seen in European art. It is very similar to Yang Hui's square, which was created in China about 250 years before Dürer's time. The sum 34 can be found in the rows, columns, diagonals, each of the quadrants, the center four squares, and the corner squares(of the 4x4 as well as the four contained 3x3 grids). This sum can also be found in the four outer numbers clockwise from the corners (3+8+14+9) and likewise the four counter-clockwise (the locations of four queens in the two solutions of the 4 queens puzzle [18]), the two sets of four symmetrical numbers (2+8+9+15 and 3+5+12+14), the sum of the middle two entries of the two outer columns and rows (5+9+8+12 and 3+2+15+14), and in four kite or cross shaped quartets (3+5+11+15, 2+10+8+14, 3+9+7+15, and 2+6+12+14). The two numbers in the middle of the bottom row give the date of the engraving: 1514. The numbers 1 and 4 at either side of the date correspond to, in English, the letters 'A' and 'D' which are the initials of the artist.
16 | 3 | 2 | 13 |
5 | 10 | 11 | 8 |
9 | 6 | 7 | 12 |
4 | 15 | 14 | 1 |
Dürer's magic square can also be extended to a magic cube.[19]
Dürer's magic square and his Melencolia I both also played large roles in Dan Brown's 2009 novel, The Lost Symbol.
The Passion façade of the Sagrada Família church in Barcelona, designed by sculptor Josep Subirachs, features a 4×4 magic square:
The magic constant of the square is 33, the age of Jesus at the time of the Passion. Structurally, it is very similar to the Melancholia magic square, but it has had the numbers in four of the cells reduced by 1.
1 | 14 | 14 | 4 |
11 | 7 | 6 | 9 |
8 | 10 | 10 | 5 |
13 | 2 | 3 | 15 |
While having the same pattern of summation, this is not a normal magic square as above, as two numbers (10 and 14) are duplicated and two (12 and 16) are absent, failing the 1→n2 rule.
Similarly to Dürer's magic square, the Sagrada Familia's magic square can also be extended to a magic cube.[20]
There are many ways to construct magic squares, but the standard (and most simple) way is to follow certain configurations/formulas which generate regular patterns. Magic squares exist for all values of n, with only one exception: it is impossible to construct a magic square of order 2. Magic squares can be classified into three types: odd, doubly even (n divisible by four) and singly even (n even, but not divisible by four). Odd and doubly even magic squares are easy to generate; the construction of singly even magic squares is more difficult but several methods exist, including the LUX method for magic squares (due to John Horton Conway) and the Strachey method for magic squares.
Group theory was also used for constructing new magic squares of a given order from one of them, please see.[21]
How many n×n magic squares for n>5? |
The number of different n×n magic squares for n from 1 to 5, not counting rotations and reflections:
The number for n = 6 has been estimated to 1.7745×1019.
A method for constructing magic squares of odd order was published by the French diplomat de la Loubère in his book A new historical relation of the kingdom of Siam (Du Royaume de Siam, 1693), under the chapter entitled The problem of the magical square according to the Indians.[22] The method operates as follows:
Starting from the central column of the first row with the number 1, the fundamental movement for filling the squares is diagonally up and right, one step at a time. If a filled square is encountered, one moves vertically down one square instead, then continuing as before. When a move would leave the square, it is wrapped around to the last row or first column, respectively.
Starting from other squares rather than the central column of the first row is possible, but then only the row and column sums will be identical and result in a magic sum, whereas the diagonal sums will differ. The result will thus be a semimagic square and not a true magic square. Moving in directions other than north east can also result in magic squares.
The following formulae help construct magic squares of odd order
Order | ||||
Squares (n) | Last No. | Middle No. | Sum (M) | Ith row and Jth column No. |
The "Middle Number" is always in the diagonal bottom left to top right.
The "Last Number" is always opposite the number 1 in an outside column or row.
Doubly even means that n is an even multiple of an even integer; or 4p (e.g. 4, 8, 12), where p is an integer.
Generic pattern All the numbers are written in order from left to right across each row in turn, starting from the top left hand corner. The resulting square is also known as a mystic square. Numbers are then either retained in the same place or interchanged with their diametrically opposite numbers in a certain regular pattern. In the magic square of order four, the numbers in the four central squares and one square at each corner are retained in the same place and the others are interchanged with their diametrically opposite numbers.
A construction of a magic square of order 4 Go left to right through the square filling counting and filling in on the diagonals only. Then continue by going left to right from the top left of the table and fill in counting down from 16 to 1. As shown below.
An extension of the above example for Orders 8 and 12 First generate a "truth" table, where a '1' indicates selecting from the square where the numbers are written in order 1 to n2 (left-to-right, top-to-bottom), and a '0' indicates selecting from the square where the numbers are written in reverse order n2 to 1. For M = 4, the "truth" table is as shown below, (third matrix from left.)
Note that a) there are equal number of '1's and '0's; b) each row and each column are "palindromic"; c) the left- and right-halves are mirror images; and d) the top- and bottom-halves are mirror images (c & d imply b.) The truth table can be denoted as (9, 6, 6, 9) for simplicity (1-nibble per row, 4 rows.) Similarly, for M=8, two choices for the truth table are (A5, 5A, A5, 5A, 5A, A5, 5A, A5) or (99, 66, 66, 99, 99, 66, 66, 99) (2-nibbles per row, 8 rows.) For M=12, the truth table (E07, E07, E07, 1F8, 1F8, 1F8, 1F8, 1F8, 1F8, E07, E07, E07) yields a magic square (3-nibbles per row, 12 rows.) It is possible to count the number of choices one has based on the truth table, taking rotational symmetries into account.
This method is based on a 2006 published mathematical game called medjig (author: Willem Barink, editor: Philos-Spiele). The pieces of the medjig puzzle are squares divided in four quadrants on which the numbers 0, 1, 2 and 3 are dotted in all sequences. There are 18 squares, with each sequence occurring 3 times. The aim of the puzzle is to take 9 squares out of the collection and arrange them in a 3 x 3 "medjig-square" in such a way that each row and column formed by the quadrants sums to 9, along with the two long diagonals.
The medjig method of constructing a magic square of order 6 is as follows:
Similarly, for any larger integer N, a magic square of order 2N can be constructed from any N x N medjig-square with each row, column, and long diagonal summing to 3N, and any N x N magic square (using the four numbers from 1 to 4N^2 that equal the original number modulo N^2).
Any number p in the order-n square can be uniquely written in the form p = an + r, with r chosen from {1,...,n}. Note that due to this restriction, a and r are not the usual quotient and remainder of dividing p by n. Consequently the problem of constructing can be split in two problems easier to solve. So, construct two matching square grids of order n satisfying panmagic properties, one for the a-numbers (0,..., n−1), and one for the r-numbers (1,...,n). This requires a lot of puzzling, but can be done. When successful, combine them into one panmagic square. Van den Essen and many others supposed this was also the way Benjamin Franklin (1706–1790) constructed his famous Franklin squares. Three panmagic squares are shown below. The first two squares have been constructed April 2007 by Barink, the third one is some years older, and comes from Donald Morris, who used, as he supposes, the Franklin way of construction.
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The order 8 square satisfies all panmagic properties, including the Franklin ones. It consists of 4 perfectly panmagic 4x4 units. Note that both order 12 squares show the property that any row or column can be divided in three parts having a sum of 290 (= 1/3 of the total sum of a row or column). This property compensates the absence of the more standard panmagic Franklin property that any 1/2 row or column shows the sum of 1/2 of the total. For the rest the order 12 squares differ a lot.The Barink 12x12 square is composed of 9 perfectly panmagic 4x4 units, moreover any 4 consecutive numbers starting on any odd place in a row or column show a sum of 290. The Morris 12x12 square lacks these properties, but on the contrary shows constant Franklin diagonals. For a better understanding of the constructing decompose the squares as described above, and see how it was done. And note the difference between the Barink constructions on the one hand, and the Morris/Franklin construction on the other hand.
In the book Mathematics in the Time-Life Science Library Series, magic squares by Euler and Franklin are shown. Franklin designed this one so that any four-square subset (any four contiguous squares that form a larger square, or any four squares equidistant from the center) total 130. In Euler's square, the rows and columns each total 260, and halfway they total 130—and a chess knight, making its L-shaped moves on the square, can touch all 64 boxes in consecutive numerical order.
There is a method reminiscent of the Kronecker product of two matrices, that builds an nm x nm magic square from an n x n magic square and an m x m magic square.[23]
A magic square can be constructed using genetic algorithms.[24] In this process an initial population of magic squares with random values are generated. The fitness scores of these individual magic squares are calculated based on the degree of deviation in the sums of the rows, columns, and diagonals. The population of magic squares reproduce by exchanging values, together with some random mutations. Those squares with a higher fitness score are more likely to reproduce. The next generation of the magic square population is again calculated for their fitness, and this process continues until a solution has been found or a time limit has been reached.
Certain extra restrictions can be imposed on magic squares. If not only the main diagonals but also the broken diagonals sum to the magic constant, the result is a panmagic square. If raising each number to certain powers yields another magic square, the result is a bimagic, a trimagic, or, in general, a multimagic square.
Sometimes the rules for magic squares are relaxed, so that only the rows and columns but not necessarily the diagonals sum to the magic constant (this is usually called a semimagic square).
In heterosquares and antimagic squares, the 2n + 2 sums must all be different.
Instead of adding the numbers in each row, column and diagonal, one can apply some other operation. For example, a multiplicative magic square has a constant product of numbers. A multiplicative magic square can be derived from an additive magic square by raising 2 (or any other integer) to the power of each element. For example, the original Lo-Shu magic square becomes:
16 | 512 | 4 |
8 | 32 | 128 |
256 | 2 | 64 |
Other examples of multiplicative magic squares include:
Ali Skalli's non iterative method of construction is also applicable to multiplicative magic squares. On the 7x7 example below, the products of each line, each column and each diagonal is 6,227,020,800.
Skalli multiplicative 7 x 7 | ||||||
27 | 50 | 66 | 84 | 13 | 2 | 32 |
24 | 52 | 3 | 40 | 54 | 70 | 11 |
56 | 9 | 20 | 44 | 36 | 65 | 6 |
55 | 72 | 91 | 1 | 16 | 36 | 30 |
4 | 24 | 45 | 60 | 77 | 12 | 26 |
10 | 22 | 48 | 39 | 5 | 48 | 63 |
78 | 7 | 8 | 18 | 40 | 33 | 60 |
Still using Ali Skalli's non iterative method, it is possible to produce an infinity of multiplicative magic squares of complex numbers[25] belonging to set. On the example below, the real and imaginary parts are integer numbers, but they can also belong to the entire set of real numbers . The product is: −352,507,340,640 − 400,599,719,520 i.
Skalli multiplicative 7 x 7 of complex numbers | ||||||
21+14i | −70+30i | −93−9i | −105−217i | 16+50i | 4−14i | 14−8i |
63−35i | 28+114i | −14i | 2+6i | 3−11i | 211+357i | −123−87i |
31−15i | 13−13i | −103+69i | −261−213i | 49−49i | −46+2i | −6+2i |
102−84i | −28−14i | 43+247i | −10−2i | 5+9i | 31−27i | −77+91i |
−22−6i | 7+7i | 8+14i | 50+20i | −525−492i | −28−42i | −73+17i |
54+68i | 138−165i | −56−98i | −63+35i | 4−8i | 2−4i | 70−53i |
24+22i | −46−16i | 6−4i | 17+20i | 110+160i | 84−189i | 42−14i |
Other shapes than squares can be considered. The general case is to consider a design with N parts to be magic if the N parts are labeled with the numbers 1 through N and a number of identical sub-designs give the same sum. Examples include magic dodecahedrons, magic triangles[26] magic stars, and magic hexagons. Going up in dimension results in magic cubes, magic tesseracts and other magic hypercubes.
Edward Shineman has developed yet another design in the shape of magic diamonds.
Possible magic shapes are constrained by the number of equal-sized, equal-sum subsets of the chosen set of labels. For example, if one proposes to form a magic shape labeling the parts with {1, 2, 3, 4}, the sub-designs will have to be labeled with {1,4} and {2,3}.[26]
Magic squares may be constructed which contain geometric shapes rather than numbers, as in the "geomagic squares" introduced by Lee Sallows.[27]
One can combine two or more of the above extensions, resulting in such objects as multiplicative multimagic hypercubes. Little seems to be known about this subject.
Over the years, many mathematicians, including Euler, Cayley and Benjamin Franklin have worked on magic squares, and discovered fascinating relations.
Rudolf Ondrejka (1928–2001) discovered the following 3x3 magic square of primes, in this case nine Chen primes:
17 | 89 | 71 |
113 | 59 | 5 |
47 | 29 | 101 |
The Green–Tao theorem implies that there are arbitrarily large magic squares consisting of primes.
Using Ali Skalli's non-iterative method of magic squares construction, it is easy to create magic squares of primes[28] of any dimension. In the example below, many symmetries appear (including all sorts of crosses), as well as the horizontal and vertical translations of all those. The magic constant is 13665.
Skalli Primes 5 x 5 | ||||
2087 | 2633 | 2803 | 2753 | 3389 |
2843 | 2729 | 3347 | 2099 | 2647 |
3359 | 2113 | 2687 | 2819 | 2687 |
2663 | 2777 | 2699 | 3373 | 2153 |
2713 | 3413 | 2129 | 2621 | 2789 |
It is believed that an infinite number of Skalli's magic squares of prime exist, but no demonstration exists to date. However, it is possible to easily produce a considerable number of them, not calculable in the absence of demonstration.
In 1992, Demirörs, Rafraf, and Tanik published a method for converting some magic squares into n-queens solutions, and vice versa.[29]
Wikisource has the text of the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica article Magic Square. |


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14 Feb 2012
HEALTHCARE property group Assura has appointed Deloitte as auditors of its company and its subsidiaries.
Following a competitive tender process Assura announced that it would replace Ernst & Young with Deloitte.
Further reading
The company announced in its annual reports and accounts, published at the end of July last year, that the audit committee recommended E&Y for reappointment. However, this was subject to a former tender.
Assura said in a statement: "Ernst & Young have confirmed that there are no circumstances connected to their resignation which should be brought to the attention of the members or creditors of the company."
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text:
Discussing: Just what *is* slash?
Just what *is* slash?
Message: 2657
07 Jan 03 11:25 AM
Original Post
General Audience
The Doyen of Definitions has been hearing a variety of explanations as to what is properly labeled "Slash". There are surprisingly few points of agreement on this term. Just to name a few:
"Slash" indicates a story that:
- has explicit homosexual sex scene(s) in it of any type.
- is nothing but a homosexual sex scene(s).
- has allusions to homosexual sexual encounters.
- puts two canonically heterosexual characters of the same sex into an initimate emotional and/or physical relationship.
- shows physical affection between two same sex characters that could be interpreted as sexual/erotic/romantic.
- shows emotional affection between same sex characters that could be interpreted as sexual/erotic/romantic
- has any mention or allusion to homosexuality that does not indicate disapproval .
Quite a list, and this is not exhaustive. Everyone has a definition, it appears, and no two are precisely alike. Oh, yes, I do have my definiton:
A story where the focus is an explicitly homosexual romance, whether or not the story has explicit scenes in it.
Why this? First of all, to set some boundaries. A qualifier that it is a romance between characters is going to remove stories where a homosexual encounter is simply a plot device to move action along, and is not the focus of the story. It also demands that there be more than just a sense of affection or of camaraderie between two people of the same sex. Saying you do not need explicit scenes would allow for a story that is a look at emotions or pshychology, and could address unreturned love or non-sexual relations. While there is a qualifier "romance", there is no requirement that is be romantic - the romance could be significantly unpleasant or unsatisfying. Still, the focus of the story would need to be on the relationship between two (or more) same-sex characters and their sexual/erotic/romantic acts and thoughts.
So, there's a few definitions - what do you think? How do you define it? And why? What is at stake in defining this genre?
Re: Just what *is*
It seems to me that slash is as much a perjorative as it is a description. It almost always means AU pairing I don't like.
Re: Just what *is*
The definition that I go with is that a story needs a slash label if there is a relationship between two characters of the same gender that at least one defines as romantic and/or sexual, and this relationship is a major point in the story. I think I would shy away from defining slash stories as 'romance' since in many of them the sexual relationship is merely a metaphor for friendship, and that seems to me to be legitimate. I also don't think the focus has to be on the relationship - you can have very good slash stories in which the protagonists are lovers but the story is not primarily about their romance but rather about their adventures together. But there's not really a lot at stake for me in this definition, as I see slash labels as more a matter of marketing than anything else. Slash labels are a way of attracting some readers, and trying to scare away those who are going to send me homophobic flames.
Slash labels become problematic for me when they are a way of putting human emotions into boxes. Some feelings (or relationships) can't be clearly defined as sexual or nonsexual. Or at times the nature of the feelings only becomes clear over the course of the story, and that is part of the suspense. Or sometimes a relationship will have a sexual aspect, but that really isn't what it's about.
(I had most of these problems with 'A Very Fire', so I ended up putting a warning saying 'this may or may not be slash and if either terribly bothers you please leave now.' The result is that I can't post it at places like Nindaiwe which require clear differentiation between slash and nonslash stories.)
There's also the problem that slash warnings do give a certain sanction to homophobia, as if saying that homosexual relationships are uniquely offensive and ought to be warned about. And I don't buy for a moment that slash needs warnings only because it is AU - there's no way Arwen/Legolas is any less AU than Aragorn/Legolas. Or, for my stories, that Celegorm/Aredhel is any less AU than Maedhros/Fingon.
Oddly, in published fantasy there seems to be no equivalent to slash warnings. I was poking around in my local bookstore looking for novels with same-sex romance in them, and I found that I often couldn't identify such books without getting recommendations.
Re: Just what *is*
Re: Just what *is*
I did what I normally do in such a case- research. I found "In Defense of Slash" by AC, and some articles on the history of slash; and put in context of its origins from Star Trek, began to understand. I assume most fanfic writers know what I found: it started as a way to elucidate emotionally intense relationships between two major characters, given that nearly all major characters were male, and emotion was portrayed only when the characters were infected with some alien virus.
So, by that longwinded introduction, I would say that any story that deals with intense emotional relationships between same sex characters could be defined as slash, whether it is sexual or not. Likewise there can be homoerotic relations that have no emotional content whatsoever, in which case I'd call it PWP.
An interesting sidelight to me is that there are some very well written and powerful slash stories out there. Likewise some excellent heterosexual stories - 'Box of Rain' and 'Closer to Fine' that were discussed in the other sexuality thread come to mind. But I haven't seen many powerful Aragorn/Arwen stories. Maybe I just haven't found them yet.
Re: Just what *is*
There does seem to be a distinct lack, and for likely the same reason that Kirk and Spock ended up together so often in fandom: Arwen=conspicuously absent for almost the entire trilogy. Doubtless this explains also the many A/L, A/B, A/anyone but Arwen or Arwen as third party/voyeur/wronged woman stories.
I've seen maybe *one* Arwen/Aragorn that was sweet, that attempted to write an explicit interlude or two, and which didn't overwhelm my sugar threshold. "Winter to Spring", I think it was called, and it was written "backwards" from Aragorn's death to the day of their marriage (or maybe it was their betrothal? I forget). It was on FF.net last I knew.
I really can't recommend any others in terms of showing them as a partnership, though God knows I live in fear of Kshar's story, which was powerful with only two chapters. Alas, it was also powerfully depressing to me. The rest... wasteland, IMO. I like a nice Aragorn/Arwen sex scene as much as most Aragorn fans do, but there seems to be no happy medium: either the story is chapter after chapter of them having sex with some other odd happenings going on at the edges, or else they aren't really together at all (well, duh, they did spend about 60 years largely apart before marrying), even if Aragorn or Arwen spend time thinking of each other. :-(
Oh right, this is the slash thread. Uh...
Well, given Aragorn's heavily homosocial environment, which bleeds over easily into homoerotic, I'm not surprised there is a lack of Arwen/Aragorn fics, whether explicit or otherwise. I would say he is a very easy character to fit into a one-sided slash relationship--object of desire, object to be seduced. Problem is, that as noted in the Mary Sue thread on Aragorn, there's most likely a relatively narrow window of opportunity for non-Arwen liaisons, and by the time the Fellowship is formed, that window is closed.
Re: Just what *is*
Oh, how I applaud this, Deborah. I have said in other forums that I'm not crazy about the label "slash" because it sidesteps and softens what such stories are about: homosexual desires and relationships. It repackages homosexuality for fan consumption and voyeurism. Homosexuality Lite. I don't like this because I think one of the positive things about slash fiction is that it can, in some readers, make them more accepting of gay people. (This is based on these readers' feedback to me and posts on slash lists.) I do feel stuck using it as a label for my stories with homoerotic content because it communicates to so many readers.
Mike mentioned my series with Sauron and Celebrimbor, "One Ring to Bind Them." This was very tightly edited. I took two erotic scenes out because I thought they didn't add to the story. However – hope you don't think less of me for this, Mike - I did think that I put gratuitous sex scenes in that story!
I include both queer and straight sex scenes in stories for drama,
for emotional relief after stressing characters out, to show
characters' relationship dynamics, and sometimes to write a piece
fandom porn for juicy amusement. Some of my sex scenes do not need to be in the stories – I could tell the story without them, or "around" them. But I put them in anyway. Some of my short pieces are *nothing* but gratuitous sex scenes. I still try to make them well-written and linked to an actual interpretation of the characters.
I notice that queer readers (gay, bi, lesbian, transsexual) have a very different relationship to slash stories than straight readers do. But perhaps that's getting off topic for this thread.
Re: Just what *is*
... and I may meander further "off topic", but I think that's natural for this topic.
I tend not to use the word "slash" because I don't like the "target the (presumed) homosexuality" aspect. I more use PWP, gratuitous sex/violence/angst ... if the purpose of the story isn't to say something unique about JRRT's world I'm probably going to react "ho, hum, boring", even if the story is soft-core romance. *shrug* I tend to avoid stories where the author gleefully announces "It's Slash!!!!" in the story summary; but that's just a subset of the importance of a well-written summary. I need some kind of indication from the author that the story is thoughtfully written and I might like it. I'd also be turned off by a "Hot Sex!!!" announcement. For the same reason, an author making a contientious warning about "slash" content isn't going to turn me away -- particularly if it appears almost awkwardly written, the author is somewhat embarrassed, s/he isn't trying to titulate but it's polite to warn people.
Part of the reason why I want well-written non-"standard" relationships is political: I'd like to have some good role models out there amid the prevalance of boy/girl love stories. I got "corrupted" as a teenager by Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, where group marriage was included as "no big deal" -- and why should it be? Isn't who/how many people you love a personal choice?
Anyway, I know het couples, gay couples, poly people (polyamory) -- but I don't know details about there sex life, or even why they fell in love. That's private. I just have this understanding -- "this is a unit".
Back on topic. Why is fiction important, why is it "political"? -- because if you're deep within a piece of fiction it is possible to dwell upon such private matters that would be, out of politeness, not a normal topic of discussion in the Real World. I have been a supporter, in an "what's the problem?" mode, of gay marriage, of marriage reform in general. But having discovered fanfiction, having (primarily in B5 fanfiction) found good, romantic stories about same sex couples -- that's been useful to me. It helps me to empathize even more with those two guys, two girls who want to be married, but the state won't recognize it. Grrr.
In the context of Middle Earth, the states and cultures therein don't, as a rule, recognize non-standard relationships -- or, I feel, that's a defensible default understanding -- so I get a "I don't believe it" reaction as a reader if a gay couple is shown in a supportive social/cultural environment, if the author doesn't take the time to explain how the default assumtions don't apply in this case.
And, back to my PWP & gratutious comments above, I don't think focusing on homoerotic content with a titulation factor, sigh, I don't think that contributes much toward understanding. There may be a double standard here. I wouldn't know because I don't look for it. Is there, numbers-wise, a large body of het hot sex stories/sappy romances? And are the homo shot sex/sappy romances being unfairly singled out?
Re: Just what *is*
As far as slash...I can't stand the label. It's gotten such a negative rep over the years that I far prefer a textual content warning like "contains homoerotic material." It's similar to the way I feel about the Mary Sue label. Why should an OFC automatically be classified a Sue? Why should a story about a same-sex encounter or relationship automatically be labeled slash?
So I guess my answer to what is slash would be that it's a pejorative label that people tend to slap on anything with homosexual content of any kind. Probably not the answer you were looking for, Ang, but there it is.
Re: Just what *is*
I found out about slash in the Escaflowne fandom, where I've read a total of... um... lemme see... maybe four full stories and four partials? Of that number, Sarah-nekos lemons were my slash initiation, and they were very well, if very graphically done. Sex with plot, for the most part, though due to technical difficulties, I haven't been able to see if they continued in that vain. My first LOTR story was "Advantages of mortality" and I did the research thing for 'what is slash' as well.
As for what I think slash is... well, I've said it elsewhere that I think it must involve one of two things: either the obvious romance between two same-sex characters, or a setting in which homosexual encounters are built in and explained--contextualization of homosexuality counts as slash to me, and as the more interesting form of it. I think slash is political, even if it does single out homosexuality for discussion, as being different.
Why is this not necessarily a problem for me? Because much as it ought to be otherwise, homosexuality is not widely accepted; it is tolerated, but not accepted as far as I can tell. Maybe others can tell me otherwise, but this has been my observation. So yes, homoerotic content is singled out by that none-too-clearly delineated label 'slash': deal with it. Better yet, use that attention to write something that will seriously squick the reader, not because of the body parts, but because the story isn't able to be easily dismissed as 'nonsense' or just a PWP.
This is not to say that showing sex on screen doesn't do something to help desensitize the reader--that's true of all PWP or explicit/graphic writing, whatever the orientation of the characters. My problem with this is when it is clearly the case that a blatant PWP is using the label slash to justify its existence when in fact it isn't really functioning in what I would call a political way. How many times do we need to see fics that focus solely on the mechanics of homosexual sex? That's such a basic level of writing that it's not really interesting to me as anything but a sexfic--good for thrills, not for much else, and there's such a glut of them that they become dismissible (no offense to any who write 'gratuitous' sex scenes for the fun of it). "Oh slash? Oh that's old hat. Just another sex fic? Bring it on, no problems here. Aren't they cute?" That's not engagment, and its not acceptance of homosexuality, it's hormones.
What's much more interesting to me and which I would call slash, are fics that actually try to interpret a character 'presumed straight' as having homoerotic feelings, and then deal with those feelings in such a way that the reader has to admit that this is at least as plausible as interpreting the character as straight. Slash for me is that odd conjunction of 'knowing' for example, that Bilbo is canonically straight, and then reading Ang's fics and thinking, "You know... I can't contest this interpretation--it stands as an equally plausible interpretation of JRRT's Shire as any 'straight' interpretation." That for me is what I think slash ought to be. Doesn't have to be romantic, but it has to make homosexual encounters or viewpoints fit into JRRT's world as plausible (ideally equally plausible, but in any case justifiably plausible) interpretations of that world and its people.
I can appreciate your positions, Deborah and Tyellas, and also that several other members of HA as well--in one way, moving beyond the label 'slash' is a way of pushing the boundary, and forcing people to question their assumptions. Why is Aragorn/Boromir seen as meriting special labels where Legolas/Arwen isn't? There's no logical reason, clearly. They're both just as AU, and I have to say Legolas/Arwen is actually less interesting to me (which says absolutely nothing, I realize) than Aragorn/Boromir (if only for "Worship" in terms of actual fics out there that feel right to me).
How you deal with that logical inconsistency is a matter of debate and also of personal choice. I have a friend who would like to see a form of pidgin, communal 'world-wide' language English created. Why? Not because English is better, but because it's the reality that English is the international language, that people world wide are forced to learn English, and any international solution to linguistic imperialism cannot be based on some ideal--it has to have its roots in the situation at hand. If English must be the international tongue, then that's the language that needs to be appropriated, owned, and modified by the international community as a whole, out of respect for the difficulty of learning it. I think I take a similar line with the label of slash. I prefer to use the slash label rather than contest it, because in reality, depictions of homosexuality are labeled, they are marginalized, and they are not socially accepted on anything like a wide scale. I also frankly have my doubts about convincing anyone who is deadset against slash to read the fic or think about it carefully in any case. But people who do read slash, whether because they like it or because they're trying to figure out what it's all about, I'd like to get their attention and try to demonstrate that there's more (or there should be more) to that label than just the overwhelming glut of PWPs of varying quality and insipid romances.
So there you go. Dwim's two cents.
Re: Just what *is*
A well written slash story should include homoerotic elements to explore the relationship between any two characters where a canon homosexual relationship is not mentioned.
I'd also drop in the following information about explicitness: explicit sex scenes should be treated like a strong spice or flavouring. If you've got a lot of points to think about in the story already, you don't need the explicit sex scenes. If all you're doing is writing the explicit sex scenes and putting a vague plot around it afterwards, don't try to put important plot elements into the whole business. The whole story has to be balanced, after all.
My take on slash is basically influenced by the fact that (particularly in LOTR fandom) slash should be a chance to look at the ways that *masculine* affection can be expressed outside our current Judeo-Christian cultural context. So I tend to be picky about what I'll read, and particularly about what I enjoy. Of course, I'll be honest enough to admit that some of what I read and enjoy is influenced by the sort of heirachical structure that I see (as an outsider) in masculine culture. So two of my favourite slash pieces (Aragorn/Boromir) involve bloodplay and violence, because to me I can't see either of them "submitting" to another man without a fight, at the very least - it would be a psychological need for both of them. So violence becomes a sort of foreplay in that situation.
But I'm rambling. I tend to do that.
Re: Just what *is*
Hear you, Meg. I've been working on and off at a graphic piece involving Aragorn (as Thorongil) and Denethor, set during the reign of Ecthelion II. I confess, it did begin as a curiosity – what pairing hasn't been done yet? – but once I started actually writing it, I realised just how much more could lie beneath the surface between these two. Denethor's psyche is a fascinating place to explore – the story predates Finduilas's death and the palantír, true, but Ecthelion's son was never exactly Mr. Sunshine, was he? How to show the lack of WotR-time bitterness and cynicism without sacrificing the overweening pride that he always possessed? And the dynamic between him and Thorongil, his rival, is great fun to play with, too, since this is another pair that would never "submit" to one another.
Argh, now I'm thinking about this story again…I had hoped that it would sit quietly in a corner until I had got some of the older pieces finished. Bloody temperamental plotbunnies…
Just to add my two cents on the original topic, "slash" for me indicates simply that there is homosexual content in the story - doesn't necessarily have to be graphic, but the relationship does have to have a definitely sexual facet to it. It can be hard, because of the abundance of slash pieces in the fandom, to write a very close relationship between two members of the same sex without having it be labelled as slash, and I had to consciously avoid this while writing Elrohir and Elladan's interaction in "The Twilight". Nothing wrong with E/E, but it's would have automatically drawn the reader's attention (Gasp! Homoerotica! Incest!), and I was afraid that the plot would be lost. So much emphasis is put on the shock value of certain pairings - it almost seems demeaning, IMHO, to gays/lesbians/bisexuals/transsexuals - as if a homosexual relationship is a novelty rather than a valid relationship.
Re: Just what *is*
Let the homophobes flame me if they like; I'll just shrug them off, since they're prefectly free to stop reading my stories if what they come across offends them. Since when is anyone guarenteed a non-offensive reading experience anyway? And while I understand that some people appreciate the "slash" label, in my eyes the term's current meaning (apart from its use as a derogatory slur) is too undefined for it too be useful.
Re: Just what *is*
I worry less about people in search of graphic scenes who wander into FtORB and are disappointed. Shame on them for being narrow-minded about the label. Having been brought up in a highly sheltered environment, I am more concerned with not accidentally or carelessly offending someone if it's in my power to avoid it, so that's another reason for me to use the slash label.
However... may I just confess that part of the "fun" of that label is screwing with people's perceptions? I mean, really, unless we're talking very general categories, what label isn't going to be in some sense misleading? I call LDID an AU--it is one, but how many people are going to avoid it like the very plague itself given the number of really awful AUs or just plain insipid ones? AU covers just as many ills of misconceived plots, poor writing, melodrama, and improbably sexual liaisons as slash does. I still use the label because it conveys something useful, namely that this is intentionally taking off from Tolkien's work and unfolding it differently. I just try to do it in such a way that it stands out from the rest of the crowd of fics.
Same idea with slash, for me. The only reason it's a big deal as a label (whereas AU is not, really) is the social context we all live in. Why not use it? Use it as well as you can and get people to think about it. Maybe they will think that you're not writing slash, or that too many fics that call themselves "slash" really only deserve to be called PWPs, but that gets more attention, I would say, than refusing to use the label. Whether they flame or not, homophobes will not think at all about what they're doing; and I've seen reviewers give up on non slash stories that showed the characters being friendly in a platonic environment (Roots got a review like that (no, not after chapter 11, either), and so also did LDID). Those readers, if they come across a "slash" piece that isn't marked as such, are much less likely to then read anything else you've written, because they'll feel tricked.
Maybe it's a question of audience when it comes to preferences in using the label slash. Who are you writing for? The general public? Or just the small cadre of people who will read slash, even if reluctantly or with suspicion? Me, I write for the latter; I do not expect to win converts from the former. If the general public has homophobic issues with my stuff, their loss. If some slash readers want only A boffing B, or L screwing E (whichever E), I'm sorry their tastes are so narrow, though in truth, I haven't ever encountered a reader who complained about this. (Am I just lucky?)
For those who might be missing out because they've been burned too often, well, I'm one of them in terms of A/L and (for the most part) A/B. I don't know that I could appreciate A/L if they walked in the door this instant and announced they were getting married (probably because I've read that and it sucked). So if someone doesn't read FtORB, so what? The point of my packaging it the way I do on general sites is that the reader has to *want* to read the fic, not just casually flip through it. Maybe that's a bit arrogant of me, but that's the reader I'm looking for.
Hm. Maybe we need a new thread: "Do you 'slash'?" I don't know that I've given a single word in this post to what slash is, but how it's perceived. Time to migrate, perhaps?
Re: Just what *is*
Meg - I'm actually reluctant to include "From the Other River Bank" as a slash piece - I'd be more willing to consider it as a psychological insight story, using sexuality as a lens through which to view Boromir.
Dwim - LOL! I think Ang has said elsewhere that she'd rather not class "Legacy" and OMY as slash pieces, whereas I'd rather class FtORB as such. Can we trade, Meg?
Yes, I would rather not label "Legacy" or "OMY" as slash, and I see the reason as being both political and practical. It is one of the reasons why I am concerned about definitions - how they are used, twisted, expanded, seized on, valorized, demonized, etc. However, I am almost as strongly tempted to label the work slash, for reasons that closely parallel to my reasons for not doing so.
I like your point, Deborah, that slash is a "marketing" tool in certain ways - a way of condensing and focusing what may not be easy to grasp. It is a good way to grab some readers and ward off others. But, as you go on to say, it becomes problematic when the marketing begins to occlude what lies behind that link, or between the covers of the book.
The political reasons for both wanting and not wanting to put "slash" in my story summary has to do with homophobia and the violence that I see inflicted on people because of others' prejudices. I refuse to label my work 'slash' to give notice that I will not make exceptions of non-het sexuality - I wish to normalize non-het sexuality by treating it as drama (or romance, or action/adventure) just as I would if the sexual-orientation of the actors was het. OTOH, I am sorely tempted to label those stories as such to avoid the perception that I am somehow trying to excuse my work from association with the reviled category.
The practical consideration is why I started this thread - what the hell is "slash"? If someone think slash is explicit homosexual scenes intended to get you hot and bothered, sorry, you're not going to find that in either story. If you are offended (or thrilled) by any positive presentation of homosexuality, then both stories are clearly slash. I sometimes think I need this disclaimer: If you disapprove of works that treat non-heterosexual acts and thoughts as ethical and legitimate modes of expression, stop reading now. If you want to read homosexual scenes, you won't find them here. All others, hope you like the story.
I write very little about sex, but a great deal about sexuality - and, to my mind, to write about sexuality is impossible without addressing the valorized as well as the reviled. Legacy and OMY are very much about the standards of heterosexuality in the Shire - what are proper sexual relations between men and women? They are also about the ways in which neat labels like "het" and "homo" cannot account for the polymorphous quality of desire, particularly when mixed with social ambition and political machinations.
Thus, I decline the label as being inadequate to the stories I am trying to tell. Yet, I do think the label can have an accurate application. This is why I am pondering definitions. Of course, people will make of the term what they wish, but I am trying to establish for myself what I mean when I say "slash".
Re: Just what *is*
I have to say, with all due respect, that this definition is, point blank, utterly worthless as a definition. By this definition, "A Tale of Two Cities," "Little Women," "Crime & Punishment," "Sense & Sensibility," "Fahrenheit 451," as well as the films "Seven Samurai," "Ronin," "Last Unicorn," and "Mononoke Hime," are all "slash". And all the other works by the authors/creators of the same with them.
In fact, I read and watch *nothing but* slash, by this definition, since *every* book I voluntarily read has intense emotional relationships between the characters, regardless of what gender (I read a lot of sf, so *which* is not necessarily accurate either) because I prefer character-driven action to characterless action stories.
Any definition or term which is so loose that it can incorporate things which have so little in common is necessarily useless in philosophical terms -- it's like saying "stuff", or "things," or "bone" for a doctor.
Historically the term comes from the / mark placed between the two characters being non-canonically paired. Originally it didn't even mean same-sex, though since that was the most common implemenation, it became coterminous with same-sex pairings in fanfic. (as in K/S for ST:TOS). It used to, and usually still to an extent, implies some sort of invocation of canon "subtexts" as justification for the plausibility of the pairing -- merely "they look so cute together" not being considered sufficient warrant in pre-ffnet days.
Now, is "slash" necessarily a pejorative term? —Which is a different question from whether or not it is or is not meant as a pejorative term, in any given situation.
I would say *not.* That simply saying that a story contains and focusses on non-canonical pairings, almost certainly same-sex given the way it's used, is not to say, automatically, "Ugh! Bad! Fie!" any more than saying "space opera" is to make such an automatic judgement -- or saying "science fiction." Some people do say "science fiction" in that way, and mean it as an automatic dismissal and sweeping denigration of the genre. So?
"Space opera," to use a (slightly) less loaded set of terms, refers to longish melodramatic stories with larger-than-life characters and grand scenery in a futuristic setting. And Sturgeon's Law holds good for most of it. But it simply describes a type of story which some people like, others don't, the way "horse opera" describes a similar type of story in a Western setting. If you like 2001, you *might not* like any of the Flash Gordon films. If you like True Grit, you might find High Noon unutterably boring. Or perhaps not. But at least one is aware that one is going to be more cerebral than the other if one is described as an "opera" and the other is not. (There are also plenty of people for whom the word "opera" is a pejorative term on its own.)
I think it's a mistake as well to widen the definition of "slash" to mean *any* story with same-sex pairings, but I figure it's going to happen. However, if society someday reaches a point in which the renowned captain of the Federation is regularly hopping into bed with the female underofficers and passengers on her ship, and this *is* therefore canon, will ST:??? fanfic be *automatically* "slash" instead of merely "shippy"--? If this definition broadening is allowed, it will be, causing synapsal failure to authors and category obsessors.
I would argue for leaving "slash" as a strictly fanfic term, that is, the pairing of canon characters in non-canonical or extra-canonical relationships. I would also argue against doing away with the category because "people" (there aren't really any, you know) will/do/might think it automatically means PWP, or h/c, or excessive sap, or any other sub-class of story which can be found in any genre, subgenre or format.
If we're going to go that route, we have to do away with the "fanfic" tag as well, because there are "people" who already say that about fanfiction, too.
Re: Just what *is*
Ang: Yes, I would rather not label "Legacy" or "OMY" as slash, and I see the reason as being both political and practical. It is one of the reasons why I am concerned about definitions - how they are used, twisted, expanded, seized on, valorized, demonized, etc. However, I am almost as strongly tempted to label the work slash, for reasons that closely parallel to my reasons for not doing so.
Meanwhile, I shall just clarify the sense in which I mentioned the stories. I was mentioning them as stories which use the tools of sexuality and sexual relations to reveal more about politics and political relations. I don't know that they are or aren't slash - and I don't feel I have the right to make the judgement on whether or not they are. I can have an *opinion* about whether or not I'd classify them as slash - but opinions are like armpits, most people have one or two, and it's those of other people which stink.
I've just realised that at least part of my own personal definition of "slash" includes a little marker that says "and nothing else serious is going on in the story". Interesting, really.
Re: Just what *is*
Since I came over from anime (japanese comics and animated films) to books and movies, I have noticed that the term slash carries a far more negative image than "yaoi" and "shonen ai" (the japanese terms) do. My personal definition of slash is the following: A story that contains homoerotic content of various kinds and does not even try to explain the motivations and backgrounds of the characters involved. The reason for this lies back in the first fics I have read: all of them A/L. They all involved Aragorn who suddenly realizes how much he is in love with the super handsome Prince of Mirkwood and who breaks up with Arwen in order to be with his true love. There are also some examples to be found in A/B, but they are usually approached on more mature terms than A/L. Or maybe I just overlook them, because I am generally more fond of dark, angsty A/B than romantic, easy-going A/L. And another pet peeves among most common Legolas-pairings in slash (A/L, B/L) is that Legolas is no elf any more, just a pretty boy who is good at archery and the common whore of the men in the fellowship. I hate this!! It can be done differently: A good proof for this is AC's "Folly of Starlight"-series that involves very elvish elves and very in-canon relationships. It contains the following het pairings: Elrond/Celebrian and in future also Arwen/Aragorn. The slash pairings are as follows: Elrond/Legolas, Elrohir/Glorfindel, Elrond/Gil-galad. Somehow I feel that the blame for the bad Legolas fic has to be placed on the movie!only Legolas fans, but Orlando's performance was very elvish in my eyes and he seems to have placed lots of thought behind it..
Sorry for the OT-stuff, oh modly ones!
Re: Just what *is* slash?
I mean, what would you call a PWP between, say, Eowyn and Grima? There's a plethora of Buffy/Spike slash, and that's definitely a het couple, and a great deal of it isn't romance, or angst, or any other label: it's just sex. So, whaddaya call it?
Why should slash, which is so-called just for a bit of punctuation separating some initials, have to be same-sex? And what do you call slash that's not same-sex?
Re: Just what *is*
Re: Just what *is* slash?
What is lemon/lime terminology?
A lemon is a story with graphic sex in it. A lime is a romance where the hot and heavy breathing takes place off-stage, as it were, where no one can see it.
Shadow asked:
Why should slash, which is so-called just for a bit of punctuation separating some initials, have to be same-sex? And what do you call slash that's not same-sex?
I got sucked into fandom waaay too late to have known slash as anything but homoerotic fiction, with varying degrees of emphasis on the "erotic" element. Why it shifted, I have no idea; why do any words gain new definitions or connotations that overshadow the old ones? As for what I call slash that's not same sex, I call it "het fic." Like slash, it can be anything between G and NC-17 in terms of rating.
Re: Just what *is*
Yup, that's my current conundrum. I'm more used to writing in fandoms where slash stories (defined in this case as homosexual 'adult' stories - though often het adult stories are also published there) are in separate zines/on separate sites so I can happilky write my soppy friendship stories and not have to wonder whether they will be misinterpreted. Here it's harder - but putting a 'This is not slash! - they just like each other' label on the story seems daft ;-) Why do I mind? Should I mind? Difficult to answer but... Well... generally speaking I personally find sex - homosexual, heterosexual or with trees ;-) - the most boring of motivations in narratives and I get frustrated by an increasing tendency (in my perception, at any rate) of the world to deny the existence of deep friendship. I find Han Solo and Chewie, Hamlet and Horatio, Aragorn and Legolas, Spock and Kirk far more interesting as friends than as lovers.
Re: Just what *is*
Not to mention that _writing_ two characters as friends rather than lovers is probably far more interesting and challenging.
I've discovered that in my own personal lexicon, slash = PWP. I'm currently writing (a piece that encapsulates everything I really hate about LOTR fanfic) a piece in which Merry and Pippin have an established relationship, Frodo is lusting after Aragorn, and Sam is lusting after Frodo. Shut up. It was a plotbunny. Anyway, there's no sex in it, though it's definitely PG-13. Because there's no sex, I listed it as having "slashy themes" rather than as being "slash"
I'm also writing a piece (somewhat inspired by Anglachel's In the Kitchens of Rivendell) in which Frodo and Sam raid the kitchens in Rivendell. Who says Merry and Pippin have to have all the fun? Anyway, it's totally irrelevant to the plot of the story as to whether the two have a sexual relationship. They touch each other a lot (mostly holding hands), but I happen to think that hobbits are just generally a lot more physically demonstrative with each other than Men are. I have no idea whether to label it as slash or not. I don't think it is, but I know there are some people out there who would.
I think the thing that bothers me most in the world of slash is when I find a story that says something like "warning: het content". Why is this necessary?
Re: Just what *is*
Not to mention that _writing_ two characters as friends rather than lovers is probably far more interesting and challenging.
I think the challenge lies in writing interesting and believable relationships, regardless of whether they're sexual/romatic or not. Writing a love relationship (especially one that's explicit) that doesn't devolve into either a caracature of "Romeo and Juliet" or mindless PWP is quite tricky.
I've discovered that in my own personal lexicon, slash = PWP.
That's the problem I have with using the term "slash" as a descriptive label - it means something different to everyone who reads it. In your lexicon, slash = PWP. To other people, what you describe as 'slashy themes' merits the designation of slash. There's no consistency in usage, among either writers or readers, so the slash label isn't particularly helpful.
I think the thing that bothers me most in the world of slash is when I find a story that says something like "warning: het content". Why is this necessary?
I'd assume for the same reason the designation "warning: slash content" is necessary: to alert readers to the presence of material in the story they may not be expecting to find and may prefer to avoid. At a slash-predominant archive, it's the het stories that are unexpected and out of place, after all. And some people don't like reading heteroerotic fiction (just as others don't like reading homoerotic stories), while others don't like reading love/romance stories or sexually explicit material of any kind.
Re: Just what *is*
I have no idea whether to label it as slash or not. I don't think it is, but I know there are some people out there who would.
The most common definition of slash that I have seen is that one or more same sex relationships in the story is sexual in nature or desire. The story itself need not be about sex.
If you as the author do not see the relationship as having a sexual basis then don't label it as slash just because others might read it another way. Lots of people see LotR as slash but Tolkien didn't so that label shouldn't be printed on the book jacket. (Aside: for similar reasons I would hate to see it printed on the jacket that LotR is a children's book. Some people see it that way but I don't think JRRT meant it to be.)
Paradoxically, the label 'het' does seem to be applied more specificly to sexually explicit pieces. Maybe this is just because most of the major characters in LotR are male so there isn't the same established camaraderie to build on or gaps to fill. When you know almost nothing about a character like Estella Bolger or Lothiriel of Dol Amroth one tends to focus on creating the major aspects like romances and marriages. I think it's harder to write a little vignette about them because we don't have all that background from the books.
Re: Just what *is*
What *are* Frodo and Sam, for example, thinking when they hold hands? From a modern, female POV (which is not theirs) it's wide open to interpretation, IMO. Does their definition of "friendship" include touching *here* but not *there*? Do they have a clearcut concept of "platonic" versus "not-platonic" love? If, say, Boromir engaged in a little tension-release with a comrade during a long campaign, would it even *count* as "sex" in his mind? Very possibly not. It would to a modern reader, though - hence the label. I just have a problem with the sexual _basis_ argument, though, because a relationship CAN include sexual acts without having a sexual *basis* if that makes any sense, just as it can have a sexual *basis* (mutual romantic desire) without having sexual *acts.*
Re: Just what *is*
No, I don't think so. Tolkien may have intended them to have a completely platonic friendship, but it's a platonic friendship with a strong and undeniable element of physical intimacy, even in the text. If anything, what's getting in Sam and Frodo's way is not the fact that they're both male, but that they're from different social classes.
Is there a difference, then, between a _romantic_ physical relationship and a _friendly_ physical relationship, assuming both reach the same levels of physical intimacy? Maybe romance is all flowers and stars and glory and trumpets, while friendly is "thank you for spending three days cleaning my apartment while you're supposed to be on vacation; let me read my favourite book to you while you cook me supper"?
Re: Just what *is*
Tolkien may have intended them to have a completely platonic friendship, but it's a platonic friendship with a strong and undeniable element of physical intimacy, even in the text.
Which in no way has to even begin to ease even slightly it away from the platonic.
This is something I've given a great deal of thought to since I started studying submission grappling.
No, really - there's a connection here, I swear it. Just bear with me.
Submission grappling, if you're not familiar with it, is a fighting style which focuses on what happens after the fight goes to the ground, and on using chokes and joint-locks to cause your opponent to tap-out (or, in a real-world fight, to cause them to be incapacitated, usually by choking them out, which really isn't as dangerous as it sounds if you do it right). It's extremely physical, and you spend the huge majority of your time in contact with your partner/opponent - and if you're not in contact with him, you're trying to figure out how to get in contact with him such that you can get him down on the ground with you on top. Sparring is called "rolling" because you are in fact rolling around on the ground when you're sparring. A lot of women have a hard time training this style because of just how close and intimate the contact is. You are tight to your opponent/partner nearly the entire time.
So, when I started studying this, I would go home feeling great, but extremely vulnerable to weepiness. Hallmark commercials would dissolve me into a little puddle of tears. My brother-in-law told me it was probably because of the "false intimacy" of the sport - you're in such intimate contact, yet there's no emotional intimacy. He said if I stuck with it, it'd pass.
And it did.
One of the effects, though, has been to create an emotional bond where there wouldn't be one otherwise. I would do just about anything for my instructor, and for the half dozen or so guys who've trained with me this entire year, even though I only know one of them outside of class at all.
So, the next thing that happened was I decided I had a crush on the guys in my class. All of them. And most of all my instructor. But it was a really weird crush, because I didn't actually want to have sex with them. In fact, the idea of consumating this crush with any of them - despite the fact that they are all lovely specimens of manhood (oh my, are they) - left me feeling slightly ill. I craved them, physically (still do, actually), but I didn't want them sexually (still don't).
Well, I finally figured it out. The problem wasn't that I had a crush on them - I didn't, and don't. The problem is that I didn't have language to describe the feelings I was having apart from words we use to describe our feelings for people we're attracted to. I think the reason for this is that our society is so sexualized that we've lost track of the possibility of physical intimacy that isn't sexual.
I would not give up that physical intimacy with these guys. It feels good, it's fun, it's reassuring (believe it or not, it is), it creates an emotional bond, but there is nothing sexual about it.
There's a comfort to non-sexual physical intimacy that can't be beat. There's a wonderful feeling of safety in it, being able to just fold yourself up into another person with whom you have none of the fraughtness of sexuality.
I wish I could have this sense of physical closeness with every one of my friends. I find myself watching a movie with friends and I want nothing more than to just pile up with them like puppies. My pal Catlyn will sometimes crawl into my lap when we're hanging out, and I love that. It's comforting, and close, and lovely, like nothing else.
That's how I see the physical intimacy between Sam and Frodo. I wish I could write that sort of intimacy without worrying that people will see it as slash.
Maybe romance is all flowers and stars and glory and trumpets, while friendly is "thank you for spending three days cleaning my apartment while you're supposed to be on vacation; let me read my favourite book to you while you cook me supper"?
In that case, I wanna marry the friendly one.
Re: Just what *is*
That's how I see the physical intimacy between Sam and Frodo. I wish I could write that sort of intimacy without worrying that people will see it as slash.
thanks - you've been able to put that into words much better than I could have. This is, by the way, sort of the way I feel about my female best friend - we'll cuddle on the couch together while we're watching TV, but other people just don't _get_ it, and think it's something other than it is. We were rolling around on the floor together, giggling and tickling each other, and that was all it was, but then we noticed my aforementioned fabulously wonderful fiance watching us, and it was clear that he thought that wasn't all it was...
Re: Just what *is*
Slash = Any non canon pairing?
I've seen that also, Mike. In the context of LOTR fanfiction, slash should mean any pairing that is non canon, including Aragorn/Eowyn, Gimli/Galadriel, AND any canon character/any original character.
For an example of the last: To me, a fic that pairs Boromir with a prositute is slash. I use the Boromir/prostitute example because that is a pairing I don't like; my personal view of Boromir's character is that he would never employ a prostitute.
A "slash" fic of mine was criticized because Faramir could never have a homosexual relationship as he later marries and has children. In reality, of course, gay men and gay women marry "straight" partners and have children all the time, for gay people are just as likely to want a family and children as straight people. The criticism reveals what the critic thinks of homosexuality, just as my dislike for Boromir/prostitute slash [some of which is extremely well written] reveals my personal views on prostitution, which is: I find it degrading to women no matter the circumstances.
What else can I say about slash? Kirby Crow's essay on slash has a nice summary of m/m slash written by heterosexual women:
. . . what turns heterosexual women on in Slash fandom is the intimacy between the male characters, whether that translates into hot sex, kissing and cuddling, friendship, a stellar break-up scene, ropes and whips, or what have you.
I think she is on to something there: emotional intimacy is the appeal of slash to those who like the genre.
Whether someone likes slash, or some slash, or no slash, is entirely subjective as it will be based on their beliefs and values, and there is nothing that can be done about that. I think it is crucial that we recognize how our feelings shape what we think or feel about slash. I try to be accepting of slash that I don't like, for one reason or another, and I have to admit it is difficult.
Re: Slash = Any non canon pairing?
. . . what turns heterosexual women on in Slash fandom is the intimacy between the male characters, whether that translates into hot sex, kissing and cuddling, friendship, a stellar break-up scene, ropes and whips, or what have you.
I haven't read this whole thread but would like to say something on this comment. I think it's true, that this is part of the allure of slash (coincidentally, I don't write much romance at all), but I think slash might also be alluring just because it's so forbidden. I mean, I'd think it would be easier to write a new pairing than an old pairing. By new pairing I mean two characters that get together either recently before or during the events of the story -- the love is so much more "hot". In this regard it's much easier to write Sam/Frodo than Sam/Rosie, because Rosie and Sam have an opportunity to settle down into a daily life. Homosexual pairings, however, are less accepted by society and so there's less of a possibility of a "normal" life, so the relationship will stay in that "new pairing" category much longer, just because it's so forbidden.
That's my (fairly uneducated) opinion, at any rate.
Re: Slash = Any non canon pairing?
Re: Slash = Any non canon pairing?
Re: Slash = Any non canon pairing?
Re: Slash- Why is everyone so ashamed of the word 'Slash'?
Re: Slash- Why is everyone so ashamed of the word 'Slash'?
Re: Slash- Why is everyone so ashamed of the word 'Slash'?
Re: Slash- Why is everyone so ashamed of the word 'Slash'?
Re: Slash- Why is everyone so ashamed of the word 'Slash'?
it really hurts to see any of you bow down to the 'Homophobics'.I have to take exception to the use of the term homophobics. For the majority of people it is not a "fear" of homosexuality, but a sincere conviction that it is immoral. I believe using a term like homophobe is divisive and intolerant. I would respectfully remind members that tolerance is a two way street. I am willing to read any story that is well written - part of which includes having plausable characterizations. Some of those have included slash though it is not a genre I normally seek out. Of course, I don't seek out elf stories either, but if someone recs a good one, I'll give it a look. I've found some excellent stories that way. The bottom line is, write a good story, write it well, and I don't care what you label it. But please don't label people. ~Nessime
Re: Slash- Why is everyone so ashamed of the word 'Slash'?
Re: Slash / tolerance
Re: Slash / tolerance
Re: Slash / tolerance
Re: Slash- Why is everyone so ashamed of the word 'Slash'?
Re: Slash- Why is everyone so ashamed of the word 'Slash'?
I'm Sorry
Re: Slash- Why is everyone so ashamed of the word 'Slash'?
Re: Slash- Why is everyone so ashamed of the word 'Slash'?
Re: I'm Sorry
Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Re: Slash- Why is everyone so ashamed of the word 'Slash'?
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Message: 42681
15 Jun 05 7:09 AM
Reply To: 25714
General Audience
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Message: 42704
16 Jun 05 8:26 AM
Reply To: 42694
General Audience
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Re: Some thoughts on labels, etc.
Further thoughts on what slash represents
Queer Discourse and Gender Politics
Re: Just what *is* slash?
Re: Just what *is* slash?
In terms of the relationship of Frodo and Sam - I believe the Professor wrote exactly what he wanted to write, and it's slashers who are not reading between the lines, but inventing a subtext that was never there. I have no objection to that; but I will never agree that Tolkien wanted to convey any love other than platonic between Frodo and Sam. Tolkien was a devout Catholic. And in those days, in the culture in which he grew up, men did express affection, particularly when in the stress of war. Tolkien has said that he modelled the relationship of Frodo and Sam on that of officers and their batmen (men who devotedly served them as valets and aides) - he didn't mean them to be homosexuals anymore than he intended Pippin and Faramir to have sex, or Faramir and Aragorn, or Beregond and Faramir, or Boromir and Faramir, or any male who ever had "love" for Faramir or who Faramir loved.
Slashers are free to read between the lines of LOTR, or any work, and make their own conclusions as to the nature of the characters' relationships. I enjoy well-written slash stories. But I draw the line at saying that Tolkien intended any of his heroes, or heroines to have gay sexual relationships.
Re: Queer Discourse and Gender Politics
Re: Further thoughts on what slash represents
Re: Queer Discourse and Gender Politics
Re: Queer Discourse and Gender Politics
Message: 42796
23 Jun 05 6:35 AM
Reply To: 42795
General Audience
Re: Queer Discourse and Gender Politics
Re: Queer Discourse and Gender Politics
I wonder how and why we draw distinctions between what is and what is not an acceptable departure from or extrapolation of Tolkien's world.
This must vary with every author and every reader. However, at some point along the continuum - from strictly surface canonical through subtextual alternate explorations through 'what if this was different' - stories that depart in significant ways from the canon text slip into alternate universes. This is not 'a bad thing'. Fan fiction stories ought to be judged on their own merit as pieces of fiction against what the story was trying to accomplish and not against a "would JRRT have written this" standard. But I think the authors of stories that vary radically from the canon text assumptions should not expend their energy in attempting to convince the people who do not see 'the subtext' the same way that they do, or at all, that their alternate view is 'real' because for some it will never be.
I personally prefer stories that have a 'real world' congruency. That is, I like the stories I read to have actions and characters that function in the same way as I can observe real actions and people. If something happens in a story that strikes me as extremely implausible in a real world situation and is not adequately accounted for by the author - for example, oh, Boromir casually fragging his first patrol captain because he was asked to do routine tasks rather than heroically fight orcs every day, or every one of the Fellowship being homosexual - then alarm bells clang in my head and the story is no longer as enjoyable because it's not 'real' anymore.
I know that in 'the real world' the homosexual population is a minority. This could be deplorable or admirable or neutral, or assigned to many historical or sociological or biological influences that are beyond the scope of this discussion, but it is a fairly well recognized 'fact'. The exact percentage of the population that is 'gay in some form' is open to discussion (see How many are Gay? for links to most of the major surveys.) But even the most generous estimates still put it at under 20% and most surveys put it at under 10%. Given those figures, no more than one of the Fellowship should be gay. And in a truly 'real' situation, the probabilities are that none of them would be. A 'real' exploration of how nine more or less randomly, or deliberately, chosen men on a journey all were gay and their interactions as real people could be a very good story, and could be done in several either funny or serious ways. An author saying "they all just are, it's in the subtext if you read it closely enough, watch me bounce them from bedroll to bedroll" feels inadequate to me as an 'exploration of the vision', although it could make interesting pornography if it had well written sex.
Part of the problem that arises in any discussion of slash, perhaps, is that there is no way to draw a convenient shorthand distinction between stories that are a reasonably mature writer's exploration of the Tolkien canon that assumes that one or more of the principal characters are homosexual and wants to probe into what that means in the context of that universe, and stories that are written because gay sex is a turn on and satisfies in some way. Both kinds of stories can be excellent but in very different manners. Yet they are both called 'slash' undifferentiated, even though they serve far different purposes and should not, in my opinion, be judged by the same criteria.
Re: Queer Discourse and Gender Politics
Re: Queer Discourse and Gender Politics
Re: Queer Discourse and Gender Politics


text:
Slashdot videos: Now with more Slashdot!
We've improved Slashdot's video section; now you can view our video interviews, product close-ups and site visits with all the usual Slashdot options to comment, share, etc. No more walled garden! It's a work in progress -- we hope you'll check it out (Learn more about the recent updates).
Comment: Re:Larsen != Larson (Score 1) 210
My name is three characters long and I have to spell it out to people, even though pronounced it's grammatically correct they add an extra t to the end of it the few times they hear what I say.
At least when Peter Sunde got famous I could stop spelling out my last name... bloody Sweeds.
Comment: Re:Unscientific? (Score 1) 670
Comment: Re:suckers (Score 3, Informative) 406
Comment: Re:Proof please. (Score 1) 441
Comment: Re:She seems to grow (Score 1) 599
Why go to sci-fi when there's real people who have been in that sittuation.
Comment: Re:What if we take away too much wind? (Score 1) 867
Comment: Re:I'd rather use NASA money for interesting paylo (Score 2, Interesting) 151
Comment: Great (Score 1) 221
We are one step closer to killing that "Todays youth"-meme that has been going on for probably well over 2000 years.
Society needs to understand that everyone does stupid shit once in a while and it's, OK. Yes I'm talking you you, judgmental random people (no not you, the other guy, no not him the one in the red shirt yeah HIM!).
Comment: Re:Speed limiting... (Score 1) 859
Comment: Re:GPS needs to know road directions (Score 1) 859
Road? It kept insisting I was on water when I was in Berlin. I'm happy if it can figure out what city I'm in sometimes.
Warning speed limit exceeded, you are doing 30km/h you should be doing 8 knots. Stand by lowering the sails and firing the canons.
Comment: In other news... (Score 5, Funny) 138
BSA is killing at least 9 babies every day.
5 our of 10 RIAA employees snort crack.
MPAA responsible for 80% of Global Warming.
In line with the BSA methodology this has all been confirmed through the use of chicken intestines, tea leaves and and an unhealthy amount of LSD.
Comment: Re:There's an Artificial Barrier (Score 1) 345
Comment: Re:Simple Solution (Score 1) 326
Except for me because someone thought it was a good idea to name me after an American comic book character, an old-Swedish middle name and a Norwegian lastname. Thanks!
The only thing I'm really worried about is a potential future employer googling me and finding drunken rant of mine (as to say I'd tell the employer I was drunk at the time..).
Comment: Re:Ubuntu is not up to scratch (Score 1) 710
I installed ruby on windows for the first time today with the windows one click installer, it worked like magic.
I don't see how strawberry perl is particularly hard to install I even think it's easier to use on windows as it doesn't keep nagging you about internet access when I grab something of CPAN.
Then there's vbscript and jscript interpreters built into windows already.
I've yet to install python but I expect it to be as equally easy. I think you might be way of base on that point.
I run Ubuntu as my desktop OS.


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