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Women in World War II
Women in World War II took on a variety of roles from country to country. World War II involved global conflict on an unprecedented scale; the absolute urgency of mobilizing the entire population made the expansion of the role of women inevitable. The hard skilled labor of women was symbolized in the United States by the concept of Rosie the Riveter, a woman factory laborer performing what was previously considered man's work.
With this expanded horizon of opportunity and confidence, and with the extended skill base that many women could now give to paid and voluntary employment, women's roles in World War II were even more extensive than in the First World War. By 1945, more than 2.2 million women were working in the war industries, building ships, aircraft, vehicles, and weaponry. Women also worked in factories, munitions plants and farms, and also drove trucks, provided logistic support for soldiers and entered professional areas of work that were previously the preserve of men. In the Allied countries thousands of women enlisted as nurses serving on the front lines. Thousands of others joined defensive militias at home and there was a great increase in the number of women serving for the military itself, particularly in "The Red Army" (see below).
In the World War Two era, approximately 400,000 U.S. women served with the armed forces and more than 460 — some sources say the figure is closer to 543 — lost their lives as a result of the war, including 16 from enemy fire. Women became officially recognized as a permanent part of the armed forces with the passing of the Women's Armed Services Integration Act of 1948.[1]
Several hundred thousand women served in combat roles, especially in anti-aircraft units. The U.S. decided not to use women in combat because public opinion would not tolerate it.[2]
Many women served in the resistances of France, Italy, and Poland, and in the British SOE which aided these.
Partial Timeline[edit]
1941: The Canadian Women's Army Corps was established.[3]
1942: The Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service was created.[4]
When war began to look unavoidable in the late 1930s, Canadian women felt obligated to help the fight. In October 1938, the Women's Volunteer Service was established in Victoria, BC. Soon, all the provinces and territories followed suit and similar volunteer groups were emerged. "Husbands, brothers, fathers, boyfriends were all joining up, doing something to help win the war. Surely women could help as well!" [5] In addition to the Red Cross, several volunteer corps had designed themselves after auxiliary groups from Britain. These corps had uniforms, marching drills and a few had rifle training. It soon was clear, that a unified governing system would be beneficial to the corps. The volunteers in British Columbia donated two dollars each to pay the expenses so a representative could talk to politicians in Ottawa. Although all of the politicians appeared sympathetic to the cause, it remained 'premature' in terms of national necessity.[5]
In June 1941, the Canadian Women's Army Corps was established. The women who enlisted would take over
- Drivers of light mechanical transport vehicles
- Cooks in hospitals and messes
- Clerks, typists, and stenographers at camps and training centres
- Telephone operators and messengers
- Canteen helpers[5]
On July 2, 1942 women were given permission to enlist in what would be known as the Canadian Women's Auxiliary Air Force. Lastly the Royal Canadian Navy created the Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service or the WRENS.[5] The WRENS were the only corps that were officially a part of their sanctioning body as a women's division. This led to bureaucratic issues that would be solved most easily by absorbing the civilian corps governed by military organizations, into women's divisions as soldiers. According to the RCAF the following are the requirements of an enlisted woman:
- Must be at least 18 years of age, and younger than 41 years of age
- Must be of medical category A4B (equivalent of A1)
- Must be equal to or over 5 feet, and fall within the appropriate weight for her height, not being too far above or below the standard
- Must have a minimum education of entrance into high school
- Be able to pass the appropriate trades test
- Be of good character with no record of conviction for an indictable offence[5]
Women would not be considered for enlistment if they were married and had children dependent on them. Training centres were required for all of the new recruits. They could not be sent to the existing centres as it was necessary that they be separated from male recruits. The Canadian Women's Army Corps set up centres in Vermilion, AB and Kitchener, ON. Ottawa, ON and Toronto, ON were the locations of the training centres for the Canadian Women's Auxiliary Air Force. The WRENS were outfitted in Galt, ON.[5] Each service had to come up with the best possible appeal to the women joining, for they all wanted them. In reality, the women went where their fathers, brothers and boyfriends were.[5] Women had numerous reasons for wanting to join the effort; whether they had a father, husband, or brother in the forces, or simply felt the patriotic duty to help. One woman blatantly exclaimed that she could not wait to turn eighteen to enlist, because she had fantasies of assassinating Hitler. Many women aged 16 or 17 lied about their age in order to enlist. The United States would only allow women to join that were at least twenty-one. For their young female citizens, Canada was the logical option. Recruitment for the different branches of the Canadian Forces was set up in places like Boston and New York. Modifications were made to girls with US citizenship, having their records marked, "Oath of allegiance not taken by virtue of being a citizen of The United States of America." [5]
Women were obligated to conform to the same enlistment requirements as men. They had to adhere to medical examinations, and fitness requirements as well as training in certain trades depending on the aspect of the armed forces they wanted to be a part of. Enlisted women were issued entire uniforms minus the undergarments, which they would receive a quarterly allowance for.[5]
To be an enlisted woman during the creation stages was not easy. Besides the fact that everyone was learning as they went, they did not receive the support they needed from the male recruits. To begin with, women were initially paid two-thirds of what a man at the same level would make.[6] As the war progressed the military leaders began to see the substantial impact the women could make. In many cases the women had outperformed their male counterparts. This was taken into account and the women received a raise to four-fifths of the wages of a man.[6] A female doctor however, would receive equal financial compensation to her male counterpart. The negative reaction of men towards the female recruits was addressed in propaganda films. Proudly She Marches and Wings on Her Shoulder were made to show the acceptance of female recruits, while showing the men that although they were taking jobs traditionally intended for men, they would be able to retain their femininity. .[5]
Other problems faced early on for these women were that of a more racial stature. An officer of the CWAC had to write to her superiors regarding whether or not a girl of "Indian nationality" would be objected for enlistment. Because of Canada's large population of immigrants, German women also enlisted creating great animosity between recruits.[5] The biggest difficulty was however the French-Canadian population. In a document dated 25 November 1941, it was declared that enlisted women should 'unofficially' speak English. However, seeing the large number of capable women that this left out, a School of English was stabled for recruits in mid-1942. .[5] In 1942, Mary Greyeyes-Reid became the first First Nations woman to join the Canadian Forces.[7] She was featured in photographs to represent native people in the forces, yet at the same time was not welcome in the barracks due to discrimination.[8]
Once in training, some women felt that they had made a mistake. Several women cracked under the pressure and were hospitalized. Other women felt the need to escape, and simply ran away. The easiest and fastest ticket home however was pregnancy. Women who found out that they were expecting were given a special, quickly executed, discharge.[5]
The women who successfully graduated from training had to find ways to entertain themselves to keep morale up. Softball, badminton, tennis, and hockey were among popular pastimes for recruits. .[5]
Religion was of a personal matter to the recruits. A minister of sorts was usually on site for services. For Jewish girls, it was custom that they were able to get back to their barracks by sundown on Sabbath and holidays; a Rabbi would be made available if possible. .[5]
At the beginning of the war 600,000 women in Canada held permanent jobs in the private sector, by the peak in 1943 1.2 million women had jobs.[9] Women quickly gained a good reputation for their mechanical dexterity and fine precision due to their smaller stature.[9] At home a woman could work as:
- Cafeteria workers
- Loggers or lumberjills
- Shipbuilders
- Scientists
- Munitions workers[6]
Women also had to keep their homes together while the men were away. "An Alberta mother of nine boys, all away at either war or factory jobs – drove the tractor, plowed the fields, put up hay, and hauled grain to the elevators, along with tending her garden, raising chickens, pigs, and turkeys, and canned hundreds of jars of fruits and vegetables." [9]
In addition to physical jobs, women were also asked to cut back and ration. Silk and nylon were used for the war efforts, creating a shortage of stockings. Many women actually painted lines down the back of their legs to create the illusion of wearing the fashionable stockings of the time.[9]
Much like in the United Kingdom, the Finnish women took part in defence: nursing, air raid signaling, rationing and hospitalization of the wounded. Their organization was called Lotta Svärd, where voluntary women took part in auxiliary work of the armed forces to help those fighting on the front. Lotta Svärd was one of the largest, if not the largest, voluntary group in World War II. They never fired guns (a rule among the Lottas).[10]
On the eve of war 14.6 million German women were working, with 51% of women of working age (16–60 years old) in the workforce. Nearly six million were doing farm work, as Germany's agricultural economy was dominated by small family farms. 2.7 million worked in industry. When the German economy was mobilized for war it paradoxically led to a drop in female work participation, reaching a low of 41% before gradually climbing back to over 50% again. This still compares favorably with the UK and the USA, both playing catchup, with Britain achieving a participation rate of 41% of women of working age in 1944. However, in terms of women employed in war work, British and German female participation rates were nearly equal by 1944, with the United States still lagging. The difficulties the Third Reich faced in increasing the size of the work force was mitigated by reallocating labor to work that supported the war effort. High wages in war industries attracted hundreds of thousands, freeing up men for military duties. Prisoners of war were also employed as farmhands, freeing up women for other work.[11]
The Third Reich had many roles for women, including combat. The SS-Helferinnen were regarded as part of the SS if they had undergone training at a Reichsschule SS but all other female workers were regarded as being contracted to the SS and chosen largely from Nazi concentration camps. Women also served in auxiliary units in the navy (Kriegshelferinnen), air force (Luftnachrichtenhelferinnen) and army (Nachrichtenhelferin).[12][13][14][15][16] Hundreds of women auxiliaries (Aufseherin) served for the SS in the camps, the majority of which were at Ravensbrück.[17]
In 1944-45 more than 500,000 women were volunteer uniformed auxiliaries in the German armed forces (Wehrmacht). About the same number served in civil aerial defense, 400,000 volunteered as nurses, and many more replaced drafted men in the wartime economy.[13] In the Luftwaffe they served in combat roles helping to operate the anti—aircraft systems that shot down Allied bombers. By 1945, German women were holding 85% of the billets as clericals, accountants, interpreters, laboratory workers, and administrative workers, together with half of the clerical and junior administrative posts in high-level field headquarters.[18]
Germany had a very large and well organized nursing service, with four main organizations, one for Catholics, one for Protestants, the secular DRK (Red Cross) and the "Brown Nurses," for committed Nazi women. Military nursing was primarily handled by the DRK, which came under partial Nazi control. Frontline medical services were provided by male medics and doctors. Red Cross nurses served widely within the military medical services, staffing the hospitals that perforce were close to the front lines and at risk of bombing attacks. Two dozen were awarded the iron Cross for heroism under fire.[12] The brief historiography focuses on the dilemmas of Brown Nurses forced to look the other way while their incapacitated patients were murdered.[19]
The Italian Social Republic had similar roles for women. In the 1944 the Women's Auxiliary Service (Servizio Ausiliario Femminile) were regarded as part of the RSI military formations. The commander was the brigadier general Piera Gatteschi Fondelli.
In occupied Poland, as elsewhere, women played a major role in the resistance movement, putting them in the front line. Their most important role was as couriers carrying messages between cells of the resistance movement and distributing news broadsheets and operating clandestine printing presses. During partisan attacks on Nazi forces and installations they served as scouts.
During the Warsaw Rising of 1944, female members of the Home Army were couriers and medics, but many carried weapons and took part in the fighting. Among the more notable women of the Home Army was Wanda Gertz who created and commanded DYSK (Women's sabotage unit). For her bravery in these activities and later in the Warsaw Uprising she was awarded Poland's highest awards - Virtuti Militari and Polonia Restituta. One of the articles of the capitulation was that the German Army recognized them as full members of the armed forces and needed to set up separate Prisoner-of-war camps to hold over 2000 women prisoners-of-war.[20]
Romanian women played a significant role in the Royal Romanian Air Force. Inspired by the Finnish Lotta Svärd, the Ministry of the Air set up a specialized air ambulance unit called the 108th Medevac Light Transport Squadron, better known as the White Squadron (Escadrila Albă), which included mostly female pilots. The unit was active between 1940-1943, participated in the campaigns at Odessa and Stalingrad and rose to fame during the war as the only unit of its kind in the world.[21] Romanian women also served as pilots in other transport and liaison units during the war. Captain Irina Burnaia, for example, commanded the Bessarabian Squadron between 1942-1944.
After the war and the Communist seizure of power in Romania, the White Squadron's service was largely ignored and its former members faded into obscurity.[22] However, since the Romanian Revolution there has been a new wave of recognition of the female aviators, as exemplified by Mariana Drăgescu's promotion to the rank of Commander (Comandor) in 2013.
Soviet Union[edit]
The Soviet Union mobilized women at an early stage of the war, integrating them into the main army units, and not using the "auxiliary" status. Some 800,000 women served, most of whom were in front-line duty units.[24] About 300,000 served in anti-aircraft units and performed all functions in the batteries—including firing the guns.[25][26] A small number were combat flyers in the Air Force.[27]
Tito's Yugoslav National Liberation Movement claimed 6,000,000 civilian supporters; its two million women formed the Antifascist Front of Women (AFŽ), in which the revolutionary coexisted with the traditional. The AFŽ managed schools, hospitals and even local governments. About 100,000 women served with 600,000 men in Tito's Yugoslav National Liberation Army. It stressed its dedication to women's rights and gender equality and used the imagery of traditional folklore heroines to attract and legitimize the partizanka.[28] After the war women were relegated to traditional gender roles, but Yugoslavia is unique as its historians paid extensive attention to women's roles in the resistance, until the country broke up in the 1990s. Then the memory of the women soldiers faded away.[29][30]
United Kingdom[edit]
When Britain went to war, as before in World War I, previously forbidden job opportunities opened up for women. Women were called into the factories to create the weapons that were used on the battlefield.[31] Women took on responsibility of managing the home and became the heroines of the home front. According to Carruthers, this industrial employment of women significantly raised women's self-esteem as it allowed them to carry out their full potential and do their part in the war. During the war, women's normative roles of "house wife" transformed into a patriotic duty. As Carruther's put it, the housewife has become a heroine in the defeat of Hitler (235).[31] The roles of women shifting from domestic to masculine and dangerous jobs in the workforce made for important changes in workplace structure and society. During the Second World War, society had specific ideals for the jobs in which both women and men participated in. When women began to enter into the masculine workforce and munitions industries previously dominated by men, women's segregation began to diminish. Increasing numbers of women were forced into industry jobs between 1940-1943.[32] As surveyed by the Ministry of Labour, the percentage of women in industrial jobs went from 19.75 per cent to 27 per cent from 1938-1945.[32] It was very difficult for women to spend their days in factories, and then come home to their domestic chores and care-giving, and as a result, many women were unable to hold their jobs in the workplace.[32] Britain underwent a labour shortage where an estimated 1.5 million people were needed for the armed forces, and an additional 775,000 for munitions and other services in 1942.[32] It was during this 'labour famine' that propaganda aimed to induce people to join the labour force and do their bit in the war. Women were the target audience in the various forms of propaganda because they were paid substantially less than men.[32] It was of no concern whether women were filling the same jobs that men previously held. Even if women were replacing jobs with the same skill level as a man, they were still paid significantly less due to their gender. In the engineering industry alone, the number of skilled and semi-skilled female workers increased from 75 per cent to 85 per cent from 1940-1942.[32] According to Gazeley, even though women were paid less than men, it is clear that women engaging in war work and taking on jobs preserved by men reduced industrial segregation.[32]
In Britain, women were essential to the war effort, in both civilian and military roles. The contribution by civilian men and women to the British war effort was acknowledged with the use of the words "Home Front" to describe the battles that were being fought on a domestic level with rationing, recycling, and war work, such as in munitions factories and farms and Men were thus released into the military. Women were also recruited to work on the canals, transporting coal and munitions by barge across the UK via the inland waterways. These became known as the 'Idle Women', initially an insult derived from the initials IW, standing for Inland Waterways, which they wore on their badges, but the term was soon adopted by the women themselves.[33] Many women served with the Women's Auxiliary Fire Service, the Women's Auxiliary Police Corps and in the Air Raid Precautions (later Civil Defence) services. Others did voluntary welfare work with Women's Voluntary Service for Civil Defence and the salvation Army.
Women were "drafted" in the sense that they were conscripted into war work by the Ministry of Labour, including non-combat jobs in the military, such as the Women's Royal Naval Service (WRNS or "Wrens"), the Women's Auxiliary Air Force (WAAF or "Waffs") and the Auxiliary Territorial Service (ATS). Auxiliary services such as the Air Transport Auxiliary also recruited women.[34] In the early stages of the war such services relied exclusively on volunteers, however by 1941 conscription was extended to women for the first time in British history and around 600,000 women were recruited into these three organizations.[35] In these organizations women performed a wide range of jobs in support of the Army, Royal Air Force (RAF) and Royal Navy both overseas and at home. These jobs ranged from traditionally feminine roles like cook, clerk and telephonist to more traditionally masculine duties like mechanic, armourer, searchlight[36] and anti- aircraft instrument operator.[35] British women were not drafted into combat units, but could volunteer for combat duty in anti-aircraft units, which shot down German planes and V-1 missiles.[37][38] Civilian women joined the Special Operations Executive (SOE), which used them in high-danger roles as secret agents and underground radio operators in Nazi occupied Europe.[39]
British Women's Propaganda was issued during the war in attempts to communicate to the house-wife that while keeping the domestic role, she must also take on a political role of patriotic duty.[40] Propaganda was meant to eliminate all conflicts of personal and political roles and create a heroine out of the women. The implication with propaganda is that it asked women to redefine their personal and domestic ideals of womanhood and motivate them go against the roles that have been instilled in them.[40] The government struggled to encourage women to respond to posters and other forms of propaganda. One attempt to recruit women into the labour force was in one short film, My Father's Daughter. In this propaganda film a wealthy factory owner's daughter begs to do her part in the war, but her father carries the stereotypical belief that women are meant to be caretakers and are incapable of such heavy work. When one foreman presents one of the most valuable and efficient workers in the factory as the daughter, the father's prejudices are eliminated. The encouraging message of this short film is, "There's Not Much Women Can't Do." [40]
Common roles[edit]
The most common role of women in active service was that of a searchlight operator.[41] In fact, all of the members of the 93rd Searchlights Regiment were females (Harris). Despite being limited in their roles, there was a great amount of respect between the men and women in the mixed batteries.[41] In fact, one report states, "Many men were amazed that women could make adequate gunners despite their excitable temperament, lack of technical instincts, their lack of interest in aeroplanes and their physical weaknesses".[41] While women still faced discrimination from some of the highly stereotypical older soldiers and officers who did not like women "playing with their guns", women were still given rifle practice and taught to use anti-aircraft guns while serving in their batteries. They were told that this was in case the Germans invaded…however if that were to ever happen, they would be evacuated immediately.[41]).
Three quarters of women who entered the wartime forces were volunteers, compared to men who made up less than a third.[35] Single or married women were eligible to volunteer in WAAF, ATS or WRNS and were required to serve throughout Britain as well as overseas if needed, however the age limits set by the services varied from each other. Generally women between 17 and 43 could volunteer and those under 18 required parental consent.[35] After applying, applicants had to fulfill other requirements, including an interview and medical examination; if they were deemed fit to serve then they were enrolled for the duration of the war. WRNS was the only service that offered an immobile branch which allowed women to live in their homes and work in the local naval establishment.[35] WRNS was the smallest of the three organizations and as a result was very selective with their candidates. Of the three organizations, WAAF was the most preferred choice; the second being WRNS. ATS was the largest of the three organizations and was least favoured among women because it accepted those who were unable to get into the other forces. ATS had also developed a reputation of promiscuity and poor living conditions, many women also saw the khaki uniform unappealing and as a result caused women to favour WRNS and WAAF over ATS.[35][42]
Women were limited in their roles-they were allowed to do almost anything except fire the guns. This meant that they never got to capitalize on the training they received.[41] This was the most common sexual distinction between men and women during the war: women went through the same military training, lived in the same conditions and did almost the same jobs as men, however were restricted from actually killing anyone.[41] This small but important distinction meant that women were not eligible for any of the medals of valour or bravery, because they were only awarded for "active operations against enemy in the field", which women could not take part in.[41] Women were also distinct because of the titles by which they were addressed in the army: corporals were known as bombardiers and privates were known as gunners. They were also required to wear their designations differently on their uniforms, further distinguishing them from their male counterparts.[41] Discipline differed as well, as a woman was not allowed to be court marshaled unless she herself chose to be. The women in the service were also under the authority of the women officers of the ATS, instead of the male officers they served directly under. This meant any disciplinary action was difficult.[41]
Despite their obvious distinctions from men, women were eager to volunteer. Many of the servicewomen came from restricted backgrounds; therefore they found the army liberating.[41] Other reasons women volunteered included escaping unhappy homes or marriages, or to have a more stimulating job. The overwhelming reason for joining the army, though, was patriotism. As in World War I, Great Britain was in a patriotic fervour throughout World War II to protect itself from foreign invasion.[43] Women, for the first time, were given the opportunity to help in their native land's defense, which explains the high number of female volunteers at the beginning of the war. Even Princess Elizabeth was a driver for the Second Subaltern Windsor Unit, having joined to do her part in the protection of the country.[43] Despite the overwhelming response to the call for female volunteers, some women refused to join the forces; many were unwilling to give up the civilian job they had, and others had male counterparts that were unwilling to let them go (Crang 384). Others felt that war was still a man's job, and not something women should be involved in.[43] Similar to the men's forces, women's forces were mostly volunteer throughout the war.[43] When women's conscription did come into effect, however, it was highly limited. For example, married women were exempt from any obligation to serve unless they chose to do so, and those who were called could opt to serve in civil defense (the home front).[43]
During the war, approximately 487,000 women volunteered for women's services; 80,000 for WRNS, 185,000 for WAAF and 222,000 for ATS.[35] By 1941 the demands of the wartime industry called for women's services to be expanded so that more men could be relieved of their previous positions and take on more active roles on the battle field.[35] Of all the women's services, ATS needed the greatest number of new applicants; however due to ATS' lack of popularity, they were unable to gain the estimated 100,000 new volunteers needed.[35] To try and change women's opinions on ATS, living conditions were improved and a new more flattering uniform was made. In 1941 the Registration for Employment Order was introduced in hopes of getting more women enrolled.[44] This act could not force women to join the forces, but instead required women ages 20–30 to try to find employment through labour exchanges and provide information on their current employment and family situations.[44] Those who were deemed eligible were persuaded into the war industry because the Ministry of Labour did not have the power to force.[35] Propaganda was also used to persuade women into the women's services. poster By the end of 1941, ATS had only gained 58,000 new workers, falling short of expectations.Ernest Bevin then called for conscription and by late 1941 with the National Service Act it became compulsory for women ages 20–30 to join military service.[35] Married women were exempt from conscription, but those who were eligible had the option to work in war industry or civil defense if they did not want to join one of the women services.[45] Women were able to request which force they wished to join but most women were put into ATS because of its need for new applicants.[35] The National Service Act was repealed in 1949 but by 1944 women were no longer being called up for service because relying on volunteers was thought to be enough to complete the required tasks during the final stages of war.[35]
Women also played an important role in British industrial production during the war, in areas such as metals, chemicals, munitions, shipbuilding and engineering. At the beginning of the war in 1939 17.8% of women made up employment in these industries and by 1943 they made up 38.2%.[46] With the start of the war there was an urgent need to expand the country's labour force and women were seen as a source of factory labour. Before the war women in industrial production were exclusively on assembly, which was seen as cheap and undemanding work but during the war women were needed in other areas in the production process that were previously done by men such as Lathe operators.[47] The Ministry of Labour created training centres that gave an introduction to the engineering process, and by 1941 women were allowed entrance as the importance of the engineering industry grew and became a large source of female employment.[47] Areas such as aircraft manufacture, light and heavy general engineering and motor vehicle manufacturing all saw an increase in female employment during the war.[46] Aircraft production saw the largest rise in female employment as it rose from 7% in 1935 to 40% in 1944.[47] At the start of the war men who were already in engineering were prevented from going to war because engineering was seen as an important industry to war production but in 1940 there became a need for more female workers to supply the necessary labour for factory expansion.[45] By 1941 with the shortage of skilled labour the Essential Workers Order was introduced which required all skilled workers to register and prevented workers from quitting from jobs that were deemed essential to the war effort without agreement from a National Service Officer.[45] The Registration for the Employment Order in 1941 and the Women of Employment Order in 1942 also attempted to get more women into the workforce. The Women of Employment Order required women ages 18–45 to register for labour exchanges and by 1943 the maximum age was raised to 50, which brought an additional 20,000 women into the workforce. Aircraft production was given the top labour priority and many women were diverted into it with some even being transferred from agricultural production.[44]
Interpretation of aerial photographs[edit]
One of the most important roles within the forces that women occupied during the war was that of interpreting aerial photographs taken by British spy planes over Allied Europe.[48] There was equality in this work that was not found anywhere else during the war: women were considered equal to men in this field.[49] Women played an important role in the planning of D-Day in this capacity-they analyzed the photos of the Normandy Coast and decided which beaches the troops landed on and which sections. Women as photo analysts also participated in the biggest intelligence coup of the war-the discovery of the German V1 flying bomb. The participation of women allowed these bombs to be destroyed.[49]
Although many women were doing jobs that men had previously done during the war, there were still pay distinctions between the two sexes. Equal pay was rarely achieved as employers wanted to avoid labour costs. Skilled work was often broken down into smaller tasks and labelled skilled or semi-skilled and then paid according to women's pay rates.[47] Women who were judged to be doing 'men's work' were paid more than women who were thought to be doing 'women's work' and the employers' definition of this varied regionally.[44] Women were receiving closer wages to their male counterparts; however despite the government's expressed intentions, women continued to be paid less than men for equivalent work and were segregated in terms of job description, status, and the hours they put in.[44] In 1940 Ernest Bevin persuaded engineering employers and unions to give women equal pay to men since they were taking on the same tasks that men previously had; this became the Extended Employment of Women Agreement.[46] Generally, pay increases depended on the industry; industries that were dominated by women before the war, like textiles and clothing, saw no changes in pay. However the gap between male and female earnings narrowed by 20-24% in metals, engineering and vehicle building and by 10-13% in chemicals, which were all deemed important to the war effort.[45] Overtime hours also differed, with women getting 2–3 hours and men 9-10 a week. Women's hours were still regulated because of their responsibilities to take care of their family and household.[46]
Postwar, women were returned to many of the mundane jobs they occupied before the war started. Where once the army represented an escape from domestic life and liberty, it now returned to the male-dominated field it was before the war.[50] Women who served in the batteries as gunners and searchlight-operators were suddenly being demeaned to secretaries and clerks, taking away any opportunity these women may have had to capitalize on their training.[50] 'Demob was a big disappointment to a lot of us. It was an awful and wonderful war. I wouldn't have missed it for anything; some of the friends we made were forever." One female recounted after being dismissed from service to return to her normal job. Married women were released from service sooner at the end of the war, so they could return home before their husbands to ensure the home was ready when he returned from the front.[50] Despite being largely unrecognized for their wartime efforts in the forces, the participation of women in World War II allowed for the founding of permanent women's forces. Britain instituted these permanent forces in 1949, and the Women's Voluntary Services are still a standing reserve force today.[51]
United States[edit]
See American women in World War II
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- ^ "Das SS-Helferinnenkorps: Ausbildung, Einsatz und Entnazifizierung der weiblichen Angehörigen der Waffen-SS 1942-1949". Reviews in History. 2011-12-05. Retrieved 2013-09-08.
- ^ Robin Lumsden. Himmler's SS: Loyal to the Death's Head. Google Books. Retrieved 2013-09-08.
- ^ Gerhard Rempel. Hitler's Children: The Hitler Youth and the SS. Google Books. Retrieved 2013-09-08.
- ^ Leila J. Rupp, Mobilizing Women For War: German and American Propaganda, 1939-1945 (1979)
- ^ Campbell, D'Ann (April 1993). "Women in Combat: The World War Two Experience in the United States, Great Britain, Germany, and the Soviet Union". Journal of Military History 57: 301–323. doi:10.2307/2944060.
- ^ Bronwyn Rebekah McFarland-Icke, Nurses in Nazi Germany (1999)
- ^ Ney-Krwawicz, Marek. "Women Soldiers of the Polish Home Army". Polishresistance-ak.org. Retrieved 2013-01-07.
- ^ "Comunicat nr. 183". Romanian Ministry of National Defense. 7 September 2012. Retrieved 12 December 2014.
- ^ "Femeile -aviatoare românce – Escadrila Albă". 28 September 2011. Retrieved 12 December 2014.
- ^ "Kalugina Klavdiya Yefremovna" (in Russian). Iremember.ru. Retrieved 2011-01-10.
- ^ Bernard A. Cook (2006). "Women and war: a historical encyclopedia from antiquity to the present". ABC-CLIO. p.546. ISBN 1-85109-770-8
- ^ Campbell 1993
- ^ K. Jean Cottam, "Soviet Women in Combat in World War II: The Ground Forces and the Navy," International Journal of Women's Studies, 3, no. 4 (1980): 345-57;
- ^ K. Jean Cottam, Soviet Airwomen in Combat in World War II (Manhattan, KS: Military Affairs/Aerospace Historian Publishing, 1983)
- ^ Barbara Jancar, "Women in the Yugoslav National Liberation Movement: An Overview," Studies in Comparative Communism (1981) 14#2 pp 143-164.
- ^ Vesna Drapac, "Resistance and the Politics of Daily Life in Hitler's Europe: The Case of Yugoslavia in a Comparative Perspective," Aspasia 2009 3: 55-78
- ^ Barbara Jancar-Webster, Women and Revolution in Yugoslavia 1941-1945 (1990)
- ^ a b Carruthers, Susan L. "'Manning the Factories': Propaganda and Policy on the Employment of Women, 1939-1947." History 75.244 (1990): 232-56. Web.
- ^ a b c d e f g Gazeley, Ian. "Women's pay in British Industry during the second world War." Economic History Review. (2008): 651-671. Web.
- ^ "Reunion and plaque for the 'Idle Women', the Land Girls of the canals". The Telegraph (London). 4 October 2008. Retrieved 9 July 2013.
- ^ Shelford Bidwell, The Women's Royal Army Corps (London, 1977)
- ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m Crang, Jeremy (2008). "Come into the Army, Maud': Women, Military Conscription, and the Markham Inquiry". Defence Studies 8: 381–395. EBSCOhost. doi:10.1080/14702430802252537.
- ^ Brigstock, Keith (17 January 2007). "Royal Artillery Searchlights". Royal Artillery Historical Society. Retrieved 23 June 2013.
- ^ See Campbell 1993
- ^ Frederick Arthur Pile, Ack-Ack (London, 1949),
- ^ Nigel West, Secret War: Story of S.O.E. (1993)
- ^ a b c Gingrich, Nadine. ""Every Man Who Dies, Dies for You and Me. See You Be Worthy": The Image of the Hero as Rhetorical Motivation in Unofficial War Propaganda, 1914-1918" War, Literature & the Arts: An International Journal of the Humanities. November 1, (2005): 108-117. Web.
- ^ a b c d e f g h i j De Groot, Gerard J. "`I Love the Scent of Cordite in Your Hair': Gender Dynamics in Mixed Anti-Craft Batteries". History 82.265 (1997): 73-92. Web.
- ^ dress
- ^ a b c d e Crang, Jeremy A. "'Come into the Army, Maud': Women, Military Conscription, and the Markham Inquiry." Defence Studies 8.3 (2008): 381-95. Web.
- ^ a b c d e Little, Stephen (2011). "Shadow Factories, Shallow Skills? an Analysis of Work Organisation in the Aircraft Industry in the Second World War". Labor History 52: 193–216 EBSCOhost. doi:10.1080/0023656x.2011.571476.
- ^ a b c d Gazeley, Ian (2008). "Women's Pay in British Industry during the Second World War". Economic History Review 61: 651–671 EBSCOhost. doi:10.1111/j.1468-0289.2007.00412.x.
- ^ a b c d Hart, Robert (2007). "Women Doing Men's Work and Women Doing Women's Work: Female Work and Pay in British Wartime Engineering". Explorations in Economic History 44: 114–130 EBSCOhost. doi:10.1016/j.eeh.2005.10.005.
- ^ a b c d Bruley, Sue (2003). "A New Perspective on Women Workers in the Second World War: The Industrial Diary of Kathleen Church-Bliss and Elsie Whiteman". Labour History Review 68: 217–234 EBSCOhost.
- ^ Downing, Taylor. "Spying from the Sky." History Today 61.11 (2011): 10-16. Web.
- ^ a b Downing, Taylor. "Spying from the Sky." History Today 61.11 (2011): 10-16. Web
- ^ a b c De Groot, Gerard J. "`I Love the Scent of Cordite in Your Hair': Gender Dynamics in Mixed Anti-Craft Batteries". History 82.265 (1997): 73-92. Web
- ^ Harris, Carol. "Women Under Fire in World War Two". February 17, 2011.Web. February 17, 2013 .
Further reading[edit]
- Lewis, Brenda Ralph. Women at War: The Women of World War II- At Home, at Work, on the Front Line. Pleasantville: The Reader's Digest Association, Inc., 2002. Print. ISBN 978-0762103928


text:
Dear SCNer,
I would like to hear your opinion about the SAP Mentors program. I would like to know what are your expectations - to learn if you think the Mentors meet your expectations and if not, what could we do to improve it and much more (well, we will most probably will not be able to change the mentors, but can improve the ways how people think about the Mentors and their purpose).
I had my own expectations during the months here on SCN and now I know how out of truth they were. Took me weeks and months, thread, blogs, emails and comments to understand how it works, what is the purpose (and how it differs from my initial picture). Now I wonder if the picture how people (fellow SCNers) think about the Mentors and how the Mentors think about themselves match together.
Thank you for any comments, time and effort you put into the comment and your SCN engagement,
regards Otto
Congratulations for being one, by the way, is this a new lemon or did I just sleep?
<removed by author>
Edited by: Thomas Zloch on Oct 4, 2010 5:08 PM
Hope to be useful. People like you could provide a bigger piece of experience:)) and I feel I have so much to learn.
What are your expectations about the Mentors?
Cheers Otto
To me, it's always been the people with lemon.
On a serious note, I do not have much clue about the program. My initial (early days) thought was that, they probably have a certain group of Mentees under them, whom they guide in their respective areas.
Later on, I've come to realise that really isn't so. But rather a Mentor who is just a learned person distributing knowledge and attends the Meet the Mentors program at Tech Eds
ps: Congratulations for earning the Lemon.
Later on, I've come to realise that really isn't so. But rather a Mentor who is just a learned person distributing knowledge and attends the Meet the Mentors program at Tech Eds
Hello Kishan, the reason i ask is because the TechEds are not like every week, right? So my question is how do you picture the daily routine of a Mentor, how do you connect these guys with SCN? How do you, a man who didn´t come through the details (and so could play a role of an "average SCNer":))), want them to engage?
Well, this is
a) a question about a theory (if they could, if they would, if they would like to...)
b) about a picture of the group, about the reputation, what people think when see a lemon:))
Thank you for the time and opinion,
cheers Otto
But rather a Mentor who is just a learned person distributing knowledge and attends the Meet the Mentors program at Tech Eds
@Kishan: not many came to talk... why so? I can understand you´re from different parts of the world, but are people affraid of the mentors? Or do you think we don´t have anything to talk about?
Also if I am correct, you can nominate youself as a Mentor :-0))
@Lakshmipathi: since many people think being a mentor == have plenty of SCN points, why didn´t you nominate yourself?
1 year entitlement, but I never seen a Mentor been stripped from the Lemon.
@Juan: Ok, put your finger on a name and we can discuss this. It´s not like I could do anything about it, but all the Mentors I met at EMEA Berlin 2010 were very nice and I would not strip anyone of them. Now it´s your turn...
inside the Mentors Home you could add structured info about the projects and their status (for example, the Certification 5 findings).
@Juan: I agree, I would like to help on this point, because even I don´t know many details about their projects and outside-SCN work for theCommunities.
end of part 1
@Mahesh: let´s skip this Mr. part:)) I am no mister/master of anything:)) We are all friends here. I appreciate it but makes me feel a little weird:))
Parallel to this thread one thread is there "remote support from SDN'. for this we can use Mentors(with their support) and build a remote support forums/interactions.
@Mahesh: I don´t understand why would Mentors do this. They don´t get paid for this and vene not everything is transparent to the community, there is a lot of effort and time behind being a mentor. I am afraid they don´t have time for this. By the way, they/we arenot gods and cannot answer everything (check my activity at Adobe forms forum), I am not able to answer like halfof the questions. Feels likeyou want to have an OSS servicefor free from faces you know...
By the way, many of the Mentors are very good at what they´re doing what means they have very demanding jobs... which they don´t want to lose. Yoiu would feel the same way, wouldn´t you?
Congrats Otto on being one among the "Elites" !!
@Suhas: I don´t like this elites thing. I am sure that they´re plenty of people working with SAP who are far better in what they do than me. I don´t felite like any elite. These guys are nice and skilled, but not like the best of the best. Atleast I think that plenty of the superheros were not found yet...
this is not necessarily true: He talked about creating a sponsorship of the Product Area for the Mentors in their area so the Mentors can interact with SAP. That confused me: an SAP Mentor is a top community influencer, but he doesn't even need to know some SAP people to give feedback?
@Tobias: I don´t need the video, I was there. On stage:)) The problem is not with the mentors or the access. We are offered access to numerous people who DO things in SAP. The problem is we don´t have "many" mentors and the tradition is relatively new. Compare with the number of SAP people, compare with their activity on SCN etc. etc. So it is more like not all the people responsible for things in SAP know us, want usto provide feedback etc. etc. This will work as intended in few years, but the company big like SAP has to change slowly. We cannot expect miracles in a day. Mentors are flexible, but SAP needs time and a little help. A success story very much like any customer:))
end of part 2
Whereas I believe that most Moderatos and Mentors dont reply to forum questons because of the low quality of the question. Some of them are authors of standard SAP Press books, so IMHO they don't respond to forum questions because >50% of the question done can be resolved with searching, SAP Help and training (that's what's missing most).
@Tobias: I am not sure how many of you guys do this "answering" like everyday. I have been doing this for like a year in Adobe forms forum under NetWeaver and I must tell you it is sometimes very difficult for me to repeat the same for like 10x. Sometimes I tell the guy to search, sometimes I search for him/her because it is difficult to search for a newbie, who does not know the keywords or something... But sometimes this bore me to death. Ok, i don´t this for having fun, but anyway, sometimes it is hell to answer the same again and again.
Now as I say this keep in mind that my opinion is one out of 90+ folks, so I'm not going to claim this is official stance, but rather a model that I know several fellow SAP Mentors are exploring/find interesting.
@Stephen: Everything I say is my opinion only and hasnothing to do with the official stance.
I am only trying to understand what does the community think about the mentors and how could we help everybody to have some more fun (and outcome/ experience). SAP "product people" start to live with the Mentors, maybe the Community should start learning this as well... everything needs some effort...
Cheers Otto
Interesting discussion n to add to it....
The term 'MENTOR' is derived from greek mythology atleast that's what my history knowledge says... which is a term which could be equated to a father who takes special care or attention of you know who...
With that as my context a few thoughts...
- How about some kind of Mentee program, wherein the mentors handpick people who are active in the SCN / live sap community events etc. and are doing a good work at it and kind of assist / guide them as & when possible, it would be a great mutual learning exp.
- To take that a step further, the Mentee can have an icon as well n a click on the icon can take the person direct to his / her mentor, thereby adding further value to the Mentor. As an age old Indian saying goes... it is not the one who says that is the destination, but a person who equips (read knowledge) you to make that journey for whom your head should bow in respect
- Another thought, with Ctrl + C & Ctrl + V, I can get a lot of points in the forums, but would that really add value?? I doubt, so how about having the Mentors assigning merit points to the contributions be it in threads or blogs etc which shows up on the user profile for contributions which really add value to the community, this would be some kind of certificate of merit
- The stars (silver, gold, platinum etc) can be linked to the points assigned by the mentors or the gurus in the field & not to the points gained by just merely answering a query.
- And ya... how about the size n color of the lemon next to the mentor depend on the activity & contributions made by the mentor, so if a mentor is not active in any medium, then the size can shrink n the color fade from bright to dull.... (psst... Mentors pls don't get mad at me for this...)
Well there are more, but guess this posting has become too long... so I close it here...
Vivek wrote:
> - Another thought, with Ctrl + C & Ctrl + V, I can get a lot of points in the forums, but would that really add value?? I doubt,...
You're right. Which is why if you were caught doing it, the moderators would ensure your account was guestified and the points reduced to zero!
@ Matt,
Not sure on what you interpreted from my statement, it was a metaphor to state that it is more valuable to link the Stars showing up (Platinum, Gold, Silver et al) for points awarded by Mentors / Subject Matter Experts & their likes... rather than linking it to points obtained by replying to a query, which in many cases is less said the better. (If time permits will paste some threads which would stress the fact of what I meant further).
If being a SAP Mentor ever has anything to do with ponits system, then I will pack my bags and leave SCN.
I do however find it appropriate for SAP Mentors to show some presence on SCN, particularly if they use it.
The whole idea (in my books) is that if you can benefit from SCN content, then one should also put something back into it where you can to maintain a "balance of content".
Exactly Julius!:))
By the way, <off topic flag raised>, last weeks a new wave of "unbalanced" ladies and gentlemen come to the Adobe forms forum and ask for help without having a single point (or anything suitable to their 20-50-hundred questions) on their account. I started to tell them not to expect any help. How do you guys approach this problem? Any ideas I could use?:))
Cheers Oto
Please don't worry about the impression you are creating here. I actually think this is great thread.
Now I made my comment about my opinion only being one of 90+ just to let everyone know that my view was not the universally accepted view among the SAP Mentors. I think you have learned so far that even among the group there are areas where a consensus has not been reached.
Take care,
I actually think this is great thread.
Me too! I think the Mentors initiative could use some more feedback.
We could:
a) start something new, what community would like us to start
b) communicate better that we don´t do, what people think we do/ are supposed to do
Time to time I read comments saying something like "we don´t understand the mentors program" or "we don´t like it". And that is not something I can live with. So trying to gather some feedback.
The only problem with this thread, or with this whole category, is that I can see the same faces around. This is great that we have a group of people who like to talk, who care etc. But that does not help with the feedback thing:))
Cheers Otto
According to me it is one more feather to your cap. During my initial period, I have gone through in SDN to know more about Mentors role and came to understand that they have been nominated by their friends based on their participation in the community. Also if I am correct, you can nominate youself as a Mentor :-0))
G. Lakshmipathi
How do I picture a mentor?
Hmm, if I see one I take out my Nikon and picture the mentor.
I take out my Nikon and picture the mentor
You remind me of Vitaliy:))))) For a second I was convinced he had no idea how screenshots work:)))
SAP Mentors are supposed to be members of the community that stand out due to their knowledge, experience, leadership, capacity to steer the community, etc...
Some of them are high profile members of the community you see them on a daily basis around, others I had hardly seen around... at the end of the day I guess is a voluntary program. One thing I don't understand is that the program (at least initially) was suppose to be a 1 year entitlement, but I never seen a Mentor been stripped from the Lemon.
I think the people who run the SAP Mentor program should make an extra effort to advertise the projects their members are involved in and the benefits of the program to the regular Joes in the community
Thats my 2 cents.
Hello Juan,
thank you for the opinion. I agree with your points. I only wonder if you could name any specific activities you would like to see about Mentors, if you could outline how to advertise the project - I mean: what would you do if you were the guy responsible?
Hope I don´t have to say exmplicitely I don´t ask for fun but to help the mentor program and so will try to promote the ideas from this thread. Thank you for the time and effort,
cheers Otto
If you have a look at the SAP Mentor (Home) in the SAP Community tab, you can see their latest blogs, webinars, and ocational announcement but their no real info on how the Mentor shape/steer the community. I haven't come across one single article/blog (beside Denis Howett's) that explain how the program use their people to improve the community experience.
I read the page, I understand how it works. But that does not help. I need opinions from outside. Insiders agree with each other and are not able to innovate, come up with new stuff, don´t understand what the community thinks (no offense, they do understand but I need to explain what is my motivation...). How would you want the mentors to approach the problems, the community... You don´t need to read or study anything, what I ask about should be clear for any outsider.
I would like to know what would you do/ suggest we do to help people understand how are the mentors, what they do and how they are helpful on first sight...
Br, Otto
I would like to see Mentors been more hands on... Lets be honest, the gross volume of users come to SDN with questions, only part of the Mentors are active contributors on the forums (correct me if I'm wrong), also inside the Mentors Home you could add structured info about the projects and their status (for example, the Certification 5 findings).
i agree with Juan points (not active, 1 year entitlement) , when i first noticed the lemon symbol i searched for "mentor" and found mentors are those with good experience and Knowledge in their stream/subject. but till now i didn't see anyone (mentor) answering to a Forum questions(mainly in portal forum). some mentors are active because they are moderators or to discuss in community discussions.i can call an moderator to respond on a thread by just click a button(abuse). but no way to call/active the mentor on my question.in some cases when the complexity of question is high or the forum members are not able to find a solution then if there is option to call a mentor to respond on this then its a good idea to solve the question. i think in this way we can use the mentors to solve our problems
you can see the opinion of a mentor&moderator about mentor is here (by Craig)
Congrats for being a Mentor
Hi Mahesh,
i can call an moderator to respond on a thread by just click a button(abuse)
If its a thread that requires moderation yes, I seen users using the abuse report to bring attention towards an unanswered question which is not what the abuse report is for. :-D
hi Juan,
i feel the same, when we want to bring attention towards our unanswered thread to a mentor. for this a button and conditional access to use this button required (like active XXX members only can have access to button).
Parallel to this thread one thread is there "[remote support from SDN'|http://forums.sdn.sap.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1798796&tstart=0]. for this we can use Mentors(with their support) and build a remote support forums/interactions.
Ask not what SAP can do for the Mentors, but what the Mentors can do for SAP."
i don't know who said this one but remembered where i read
Edited by: maheshchandra.lanco on Oct 6, 2010 3:25 PM(thread link)
I have to disagree, Mentors are volunteers, the option to highlight a question to a mentor is simple non-applicable as they are in no obligation to answer...
I do will like to see Mentors more active on the Forums (without taking credit away to some of them that are very active and indeed topic leaders)
If it would be possible, guys, could we concentrate on not-real-time activities? I know that most of the mentors don´t have the time to come to SCN every day, every week or even month. But if you could suggest something what could be done mostly offline, so one can arrange the activities and have some "real" life, "real" job, "real" family etc.
Many of those nice people cannot visit the forums and that should not disqualify them as mentors... at least I think so.
Do you think that the forum visibility would be the only one that would matter? I mean it would be much more important than any other activities? I hope it´s not like that.
Thank you, Otto
Congrats Otto on being one among the "Elites" !!
Do you think that the forum visibility would be the only one that would matter?
Not at all... I said I will "Like" to see them around more often... I suggested the "project area" inside the Mentors home so people can keep track of the Mentors offline work. I'm pretty sure the community will enjoy following their achivements in all the different tasks they volunteer for.
For us - the outsiders - it is hard to understand why someone got nominated and what they are doing to justify the nomination. The nomination is not transparent; you nominate someone and SAP decided whom to take (that's OK: SAP makes the rules).
After all, there are SAP Mentors that have < 200 lifetime points, created an SCN account after they got nominated, are not active (blog, at least from time to time?). For someone that has no access to DSAG or ASUG or XYZ it is not easy to follow the nomination logic. So I second your wish for:
keep track of the Mentors offline work
to know what they are doing. Like: publishing on the mentor site paper / articles they publish or webcasts they held (Marting Gillet is doing a good work in spreading the word about his activities, but mostly only on twitter).
@Otto: What I thought about SAP Mentors is that they have not only a deep understanding of their field (implementations, ramp-ups, trainings) and because of this good connections to the Solution/Product Manager at SAP for their respective area. But listening to Mark Yolton at TechED Berlin (thanks to the decision to use flash for virtual teched I cannot copy & paste the link to the interview, please navigate to: http://www.virtualsapteched.com and then to Interviews to listen to it) this is not necessarily true: He talked about creating a sponsorship of the Product Area for the Mentors in their area so the Mentors can interact with SAP. That confused me: an SAP Mentor is a top community influencer, but he doesn't even need to know some SAP people to give feedback?
but till now i didn't see anyone (mentor) answering to a Forum questions(mainly in portal forum).
We have had some very active SAP Mentors in the portal forums (Michael, Detlev) that contributed (and from time to time still are), but the majority of the SAP Mentor nominations (Butch, Dagfinn, Darren, Matt, Robert) done in the portal area are not or rarely active in SCN (blog, articles or forum).
But you shouldn't look at SCN points - most of the Mentors have a low point rate - but more at the community aspect: most of them are active outside SCN: ASUG. As ASUG is the way to go when you want to interact with SAP, these Mentors have a good reputation and are really doing something. For instance, Butch may not be active in SCN, but he is an ASUG volunteer for Portals. And depending on their work they may also influence clients (consulting) and the product (ramp-up) in a way that is not visible for us, but to others.
Agreed and Understood. To comment more on "Mentor" i have to gain more experience on these terms. ASUG completely new for me and looking for it in sdn. i saw Detlev's contribution in forums( and some other moderators).the way they are answering is a new one ( includes experience and knowledge) so i thought if there are more active in forums its more useful.but now i can't think about it
Thanks& Regards
don't confuse Mentor with Moderator. Wht do you mean with
they are answering is a new one ( includes experience and knowledge)
Moderators and Mentors are the only ones that give high quality answers? Out of my head I can name a few people in the portal forum that give high quality answers and are neither Mentors nor Moderators.
According to the SAP Mentors site, you get a Mentor because of what you are doing. If the Mentor wasn't active in SCN before, there is no need to get involved, as it didn't matter in the first place.
If you and others think that the active involvment of Moderatos and / or Mentors in the forum isn't enough, there is Ideas Place: make an Idea: X forum points is a must to keep status.
Whereas I believe that most Moderatos and Mentors dont reply to forum questons because of the low quality of the question. Some of them are authors of standard SAP Press books, so IMHO they don't respond to forum questions because >50% of the question done can be resolved with searching, SAP Help and training (that's what's missing most).
I think what Mark was talking about is the concept that the SAP Mentors have discussed among ourselves about having more formal SIG's among the SAP Mentors and building more formal connections among these SIG's to the corresponding SAP Product Management.
The best example is the certification five and taking this model and cloning it to other areas. For CRM we have been loosely trying to come up with a "SAP CRM 6" working group to tackle a few key issues surrounding SAP CRM. The idea is instead of each one of us going to our product management contacts directly we would funnel the conversation to a single contact point with SAP. Due to teched season and busy schedules of everyone, we still have not quite got there yet.
That being said I think the SIG concept would involve a few key people as the primary core and bring the rest of the SAP Mentor group, and general community as needed. Best example a lot of the SAP Mentors are interested in certification and help provide feedback to the certification five as needed, however most of us aren't drive the issue, but rather providing support.
Now as I say this keep in mind that my opinion is one out of 90+ folks, so I'm not going to claim this is official stance, but rather a model that I know several fellow SAP Mentors are exploring/find interesting.
Take care,
I generally think of myself as an SAP security mentor, because that is my field of interest which I put effort into.
But there is more to good software than the various aspects of security. There is also user friendliness, and ease of implementation, and sustainability, etc etc. Even the marketing folks are able to influence software, but that is debatable merit in the techie realm
I like to see SAP Mentors active on SCN blogs, wikis and articles and showing some presence in forums because I think it is appropriate.
As with all contributions to SCN, it is voluntary.
Hope to be useful. People like you could provide a bigger piece of experience:)) and I feel I have so much to learn. <commercial link removed by moderator>.
Edited by: Thomas Zloch on Mar 2, 2012
How do I picture a Mentor?
Someone asking for a free backpack...
I came across this blog [What can an SAP Mentor do for you?|http://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/scn/weblogs?blog=/pub/wlg/21655]
by Srini Tanikela.
P.S. Unfortunatly I can't check the video right now; seems company's not happy with videos and blocked it but for sure it worked for me at my place.
I think Vivek was suggesting that a point awarded by a mentor should have more value than one awarded by a mere mortal such as myself.
@Otto - Hit that abuse button, and hope that the moderator of the Adobe forms forum is conscientious. ( No, I don't know who it is ).
@Matt: a) I have never seen any moderator in Adobe forms forums (except me without M and Chintan Virani with broad knowledge) b) I was told not to report these "parasites", because they do not act against the rules (I believe there isno section about a fair use of SCN or something) and because they don´t see the abuse message
Cheers Otto
just because a person has no points, but questions, doesn't mean that you have to be rude to them; calling them parasites makes we want to report your post as abuse. As long as the question is valid, the questioner deserves respect. There are leechers (200 questions, 2 pts) out there, definitely. Sometimes that is because of a corporate policy (only ask, never answer!) or because of a shared account.
Any ideas you could use?
- You should always remember the time when you too did know little about Adobe forms.
- You can ignore the beginners, show them help.sap.com or give an answer.
- As an SAP Mentor you should attract people to actively participate in SCN and not to create an arrogant elite by pushing away the maiority (aka: the non-trained)
- There is still the "did not search" abuse option
Ok, I admit this word was little over the limit. But time to time I see people with ...I don´t know the idiom in English, in my country we say "with a skin of a hippo". They ask stupid questions, don´t rew-ard the answers, don´t provide any feedback, never answer and some of them reported me for "reminding" them (politely...) how this thing works.
I am no rude person, but sometimes... it is too much of ignorance for a man. I know whatI am suppoed to do as a mentor andI would behave the same even without being one, this site is not about points or lemons. But how would this site grow where we are now if everybody would be such a "hippo"?
I answer even the questions of the beginners, I help, I appreciate their feedback if it is something extra, I send private emails to encourage people... but you don´t have to teach me how to be nice. Teach me how to deal with the "hippos".
Let me point out one last point. I am not rude to any of those guys. I used the word to ask you about the ways you deal with them. I am being constructive, I want to know, I want to learn. If you want to report me for asking "not-nice-questions", ok, do it.
Well, maybe I should ask these questions in private. But I wanted to learn from your feedback, because it could help me become a better person. Hopefully a better mentor.
SCN is a volunteer based participation. Nobody is forcing you to answer their questions. You feel your contribution won't be recognized be them? Well, ignore them. The question has been asked and answered several times before, report an abuse.
The forums are not a substitute for research; searching the forums, searching via other search engine, reading the documentation, buying a book, going on a training course. Questions which are frequently asked, very basic, lazy, or too general don't really have a place in these forums. If a question results in many answers containing only links, (or copy pastes from sap help and other sites), then it indicates the question is in one of those categories.
But if people ask questions which are not in those categories, never contribute otherwise, and don't respond after the initial questions - well that's their choice. They can have only up to ten open questions at once.
So the non-community minded are tolerated - though encouraged to participate - but cheats, plagiarisers, link farmers, txtspkers, the lazy and the FAQqers aren't.
I think that's broadly the opinion of the moderators after we've discussed at length, and pretty much how we approach the (necessarily subjective) task. It's not going to change much now. ( It's also the approach on many of the other forums I access - it might not benefit an individual, but it benefits the forum as a whole).
There is tension between Mentor orientation and Moderator orientation. But we should not be in conflict. Especially moderators who are mentors as that would lead to all sorts of mental health issues...
If there isn't a dedicated moderator to a forum, it's still worth reporting posts that you think might be breaking the rules, as there will be moderators who can take action. It's up to the moderators to decide whether the abuse report is valid or not, so there's no need for reluctance.
Very well said, if I may say that.
Great post by Matt. I completely agree.
After a long day (which starts with early morning Abuse Reports) I enjoy first contributing a bit to the security area.
I then read the security blogs and think a bit about the wiki while paging through the Abuse Reports from other areas and wander a bit into other areas to look for interesting stuff (or flamewars which might need my help).
Before doing anything outside of my area, I check the moderator forum.
At some stage (if I get this far) I take relief in the Coffee Corner, or might even answer some questions in the Test & Playground forum.
If Mentors (and Moderators and all others) read the "Rules of Engagement" then everything is "walkies woodhouse"...
Well, Otto - seems the thread has gotten a bit long, so why should I be shy about adding to the length? Length seems to be quite common with yours since many times you pose u201Chuman interaction or interest topicsu201D. I am quite a lurker because I like to hold off before entering comments to see where a discussion is leading and how sustained it is before jumping in and providing another cut on the topic. I think I have seen a good amount here and maybe by putting my two cents into the pot it will be somewhat valuable...
I am a bit more active than most in the SAP B1 Forums and have started doing a few blogs; let's say "stretching the wings" a bit. To be honest, I cannot provide any input or feedback as to how I picture a Mentor for the following reasons...:
Even though I have used the forums for some time, I am not versed well enough to understand what a Mentor is supposed to be or to do as established by the folks who started the Mentor program. You said yourself it took you months to understand it. Sorry, but I just do not have the time to do that u2013 a search produced 416 entries. Went to Wiki, but it is down, LOL u2013 I have got to do some catching up for the SAP B1 world in the blogging area! So, where does one find the definitive word of what a Mentor is? Providing that single piece of information might be a good starting point to your discussion because folks could say u201COK, Mentor is A and I feel as if it might be good for them to be G alsou201D. If there is nowhere to find that information, fine, because all of this is voluntary and it leads to the next question of...
Is there even a requirement for a Mentor to do anything at all in order to become or to stay being a Mentor? Maybe they are just recognized as being very knowledgeable folks in their areas, and that is great to know they have a lot of knowledge, but what kind of actions (or interactions) could I as a semi-newbie expect or anticipate or request from the Mentors? As an u201Coutsideru201D (non-mentor or non-mentee), I do not feel comfortable commenting on how I would picture a Mentor, unless I knew if there are even any requirements. Which leads to a comment of...
I am sure I do not understand the overriding idea of how the Mentors think of themselves. I picture a Mentor as being one entity and they might picture themselves completely different. A Mentor seems (emphasize seems) to be one who is seen as being a great asset to SAP's communities and sometimes takes the time to post blogs, answer a lot of questions in the forums, because...
It is interesting to see how a discussion here has again turned into quite a bit of talk about the forums and has centered itself around some pretty common topics on the forums (u201Cparasitesu201D or u201Cthe qualityu201D or u201Clurkersu201D - Yikes! Like Me!). Since the forum is such a highly used area of SAP, I would think that the Mentor, by virtue of receiving the u201Clemon statusu201D in SAP, would be one person who would be concerned about how the forums are being used. I know this is not to be a discussion about forums, but it does add a viewpoint to it because...
Edited by: kishan P on Nov 1, 2010 9:41 AM
Zal Parchem's second part of the post:
I think individuals are somehow nominated or selected to be Mentors, but what are the decision points that they actually become a Mentor? Who decides, who says, who bestows the honor and WHY? I know a person who is just phenomenal in the SAP B1 world (Gordon Du) but does not have the Mentor's u201CLemonu201D. The fellow has over 40K points and works passionately to help anyone, any where, any how to understand SAP B1 better. He listens to the u201Cleachesu201D or u201Cparasitesu201D or whatever they are called and actively engages them in getting the answer to them after putting in the appropriate questions to clarify what those folks are looking for in the posting. I have personally met this fellow and, believe me, his intentions are solely to get anyone the answer they need whether they contribute or not. That is just one of the type of personality traits that might be in a Mentor because...
In my humble opinion, a Mentor (not necessarily in SAP, but conceptually) is a person who helps others, goes out of his/her way to find/search out/watch for those individuals in their community (again not SAP specific) who have the potential to become Mentors, leaders, or volunteers in a specific area. The Mentors would regularly interact with that person to give them not only skills but also pointers to turn around and help others in a Mentor or non-Mentor role. It is just not that a Mentor is full of knowledge, but they go beyond that to be a developer of others. When I was in business, I had a company that actively pursued mentoring inside the company and outside the company. It was pretty clear for me to remain having the Mentor recognition was that, after I had received mentoring in one area, it was expected I would turn around and help two or three other individuals whether they were internal or external. But with your thread here, I am sort of in a circle because...
Even though I have used the forums for some time, I am not versed enough to understand what a Mentor...
LOL u2013 well just my two cents worth be as they may...
Regards - Zal
EDIT PART: WTH is wrong here - this thing looks like crap with no formatting working??? I had this nicely broken out by points - ggeeeezzzz....oh well I hope you get the ideas...
Edited by: Zal Parchem on Oct 31, 2010 7:50 AM
Edited by: kishan P on Nov 1, 2010 9:43 AM - It works now. There's a 1500-characters per post limitation. Or is it back to 2,500 now?
Thanks Kishan - did not know that... &:-D
NOTE: for one blissful moment this morning around 3:30am Eastern Standard Time, everyone's points were being displayed as "Zero, Null, Nada, Nothing". I thought SDN had finally attained Nirvana and we were all equal just helping each other out with no need for the rush or competition of points. At 4:15, when I got back in, the points were restored...oh well...
Hey folks a few more thoughts:
1) Great comments by everyone. I really like the discussion going on here and it has lead myself to coming up with a few ideas to resolve some of the problems presented
2) On the SAP Mentor/Moderator/Presence in SCN. Well being both an SAP Mentor and Moderator, I am here, but I will admit I tend to spend my spare time on "big issues" when contributing. In other words I try to focus on contributing in areas that have more of a global impact that just a pure one-off problem. Don't get wrong though, if the one-off problem is something that I'm personally working on, then yep I will contribute on it.
The best way to describe it is that I would like to use my moderator/SAP Mentor soapbox in a way that impacts my area of SAP Community in the broadest fashion. I still worry about the day-to-day issues, but don't try to "sweat the small stuff", and choose my battles wisely.
Take care,
I am one these Mentors for more than a year and found this older thread I never marked answered. And I wonder... do we do good job? What do the SCNers think? Do SCNers even care? Do you see any benefit?
Cheers Otto
Gold Otto - In particular youu2019re a good mentor. Not only in technical aspect but in other stuffs as well like job search, CV. Is there other ranking higher than mentor like angel may be ? You could be one.
Well, besides articles and blogs, I don't know which other things Mentors do.
It would be interesting to know which achievements you mentors have done, and why you have got your mentor status.
I just realized again how hilarious it is to See Otto's golden melon and his golden badge. Nomen est Omen ))
Well, besides articles and blogs, I don't know which other things Mentors do.
> It would be interesting to know which achievements you mentors have done, and why you have got your mentor status.
Recently, in an article, I come across with a statement about mentors.
SAP Mentors are considered by SAP as being among the 'best of the best.' They are selected as Mentors for their multi-disciplinary skills.
Can any mentor throw some light on which areas they have the best skills and also the areas in which they have more/notable contribution.
and why you have got your mentor status.
and how long you can continue your mentor status? Is it awarded for a lifetime?
Undoubtedly, mentors must be having some special skills. But, unlike moderators, mentors are not seen active in forums and hence most of them are not much familiar to members active only in forums (like me).
Actually good question, but I think you probably also need to read this article that might clarify why you don't see all of the SAP Mentors on the forums here:
That being said to translate "best of the best" comment it does not mean that every SAP Mentor is better than everyone else in their area, but in fact it just means if you were grading on a curve you would find most of the SAP Mentors in the top of the class in their respective area of knowledge or even several areas. You would also find several folks not SAP Mentors who might be even more awesome in that area, that are totally respected by and get major kudos by SAP Mentors.
That being said yep I need to be a little more active in the forums, but life happens, but slowly I am easing into a routine. However I must admit at least in my area the commnity has grown strong enough to have several people making waves, which I love. I rather personally be one of the top 20 contributors in my area and have 19 strong contributors in front of me, than be the top contributor and have only two occasional contributors behind me.
It is not always about yourself but rather how can you move/improve things foward.
Take care,
Hi Ravi,
I share your sentiments.
If a Mentor does not show some presence on SCN or even worse... makes public derogatory comments about SCN without contributing anything themselves (fluffy blogs dont count) then it does give the impression that the nomination process has a "brown nose"..
Whether that is true or not, one cannot be sure. But I agree that the impression of glory-queens without tangible content for the community is something which active contributors find rather odd in the process.
At least, I also find this problematic for me, as an active contributor.
Hi Zal,
Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. Only now saw your questions regarding SAP Mentors.
Bummer that when you looked the wiki was down, as that is where we keep our SAP Mentor FAQs:
As I hope many of your questions are answered there.
Please next time around nominate Gordon Du again. He has been nominated before, but others were choosen.
He may get the nod next time around. Encourage others to endorse him too, that strengthens his position.
Many factors go into the selection process, how many mentors do we have in a certain area already? We like to start out with more than just one, as a lone wolf just doesn't get the traction that is needed to push the needle.
Region is also a big consideration. We would like to balance that a bit. They should be able to work with product management / development of SAP to influence development.
For me one of the greatest proofs that you have the fire that makes you an SAP Mentor is, whether you have organized or helped organize an SAP Inside Track in your region.
Why is that such a great measuring point? Because it takes effort, you have shown organizational talent, you were able to gather SAP folks into a room to geek out around SAP. You can only do that if they accept you as a local community leader. By having that event, you also tapped into what is going on in your area and can share that with SAP. You can also share what you found out in SAP Mentor webinars with your local group next time you meet. That is what we are looking for, the two way dialog that gets filtered and amplified in both directions.
Hope that helps, Mark.
Too old thread to be still relevant.
Thanks everybody for opinions,
cheers Otto

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quote:Just a rumor I heard from someone a few weeks back that came out of nowhere that Miles was seriously considering retirement after this season. Personal issues, time with family, etc. Caught me by complete surprise and have not heard anything else from anywhere else...but the reasons given sounded logical. Nothing more than that...I am still hoping it was completely wrong, FWIW.
quote:Admins will whack this. I got in trouble for rumors once
quote:I hope Miles doesn't retire/leave soon. But the flip side to that is then maybe the Miles haters will see what the alternative was and realize they were being bone headed in their constant nit picking and doubting of Miles... ah who am I kidding... More likely any problems the next coach faces or causes will some how also be attributed to Miles. Tards
quote:ETA: since they'll have a playoff, he can make it to the nc with 2 losses so who knows..
quote:Fine by me...I wasn't trying to start one. I wanted to answer the OP's question but I didn't want to just say "no" without a bit of clarification. Whack away...no intention of spreading a rumor.
quote:Its a rumor and its false.
quote:I was just stating all the other rumors that miles haters want so badly to be true.
quote:We have one of the most desirable head coaching jobs in football.
quote:I believe you. I was just repeating some of the rumors about the players that are academically ineligible this year. Then got a PM after
quote:But he will win 8,9,10 games every year. Isn't that good enough?
quote:No. But he will win 8,9,10 games every year. Isn't that good enough?
quote:Its a rumor and its false


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