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The stupid question is the question not asked | |
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Re^3: Five Features Perl 5 Needs Nowby jplindstrom (Monsignor) |
on Dec 20, 2008 at 14:53 UTC ( #731770=note: print w/ replies, xml ) | Need Help?? |
I think this particular feature would clear the brush a bit, making it possible to actually see the trees. /J
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Talk:Bruno Abakanowicz
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Correction needed?[edit]
Halibutt, can you correct the Polish Wikipedia article? I think it claims that Encyclopedia Britannica calls him Lithuanian. Dr. Dan 02:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- Encyclopedia Britannica mentions him in passing as a "Lithuanian mathematician". At this point this brief mention is the only evidence to support calling him a Lithuanian. Surely it ought to be possible to find more. Shouldn't there also be a Lithuanian name to which the article needs to be moved? I almost tried to generate one, but I held myself back at the last moment. Balcer 03:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Surely it ought to be possible to find more, but surely the Encyclopedia Britannica remains a weighty source in the English language. But not enough to make him Lithuanian, whether he was or not. Am I right?
- If EB devoted an article to him and stated he was Lithuanian, that would be hard to argue with (though with Copernicus it is not enough, apparently). But mentions in passing are less convincing. Anyway, there is plenty of evidence that he spoke and wrote in Polish. Let's see some actual evidence of his Lithuanian nationality before we switch all categories etc. Could you at least find some pages via Google that call him a Lithuanian and go into some detail about his connection to that nationality? What was his Lithuanian name? That would be a good start. Balcer 16:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
At this point, we need to examine all of the evidence. I am against turning this article into another three-ringed Circus. I also want to remind all concerned that I speak Polish well, Lithuanian decently, German acceptably, and Russian very basically (menus, street signs, simple conversations and such). Ergo, linguistic ability is not the best litmus test for nationality. Just the same, I am acquainted with many Lithuanians (especially older ones), who speak Polish fluently. I am not acquainted, however with virtually any Poles who could speak Lithuanian (met a few in Punsk, ale pod czterymi odczami, said they were actually Lithuanian). Whether I ever get this point across to you all or not, Lithuanians could often speak Polish very well. They also spoke Lithuanian, their native tongue. During the Soviet occupation, larger numbers of Lithuanians were forced by circumstances to learn Russian and could speak it, read it, write it, very well too. They also spoke Lithuanian, their native tongue. Only the smallest number of persons of non-Lithuanian heritage could speak Lithuanian. Here in my home town of Chicago, this distinction is dramatically demonstrated in the church cornerstones and cemeteries of Polish and Lithuanian parishes. Many were established prior to these nations regaining their independance in 1918, and the upheavals that followed. Let's examine this one with an open mind together, and see if a consensus can be agreed upon. Dr. Dan 18:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- Let me outline my main objection to using a passing mention in EB as the only reason to set a man's nationality. Encyclopedia Britannica articles are written by experts in the field to which the article belongs. Abakanowicz is briefly mentioned in the article about the integraph, which is a mathematical instrument, hence the author is almost certainly an expert in the relevant branch of mathematics, but most likely not an expert in the ethnographic history of Eastern Europe. I can easily imagine that during the writing of the article the author simply looked up Abakanowicz's birthplace as currently located in Lithuania and without further ado called him a Lithuanian, without even being aware of the complex issues associated with doing that.
- Anyway, EB is not holy writ, and a recent study showed that its accuracy is comparable to that of ... Wikipedia. So, in the interests of accuracy, let us find some more reliable evidence before we give Abakanowicz his new nationality. Balcer 19:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
If you want to knock EB, that's your business. Please don't knock Wikipedia. That's not only not cool (to use the youngsters' vernacular), but unnecessary. It has enough detractors as it is. And I'm not one of them. BTW, a man's birthplace is very significant in determining his ethnicity. Granted there are plenty of exceptions, especially in imperialistic and colonial adventures. Generally speaking however, birthplaces have a lot of weight in such matters. BTW, is anyone out there able to tell us when and if, there was a "Polish Emmigration" to Lithuania from the time of Jogaila until the final Partition of Poland and Lithuania of the PLC? Dr. Dan 19:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- You completely misunderstood. The Nature study to which I am referring to was actually a huge boost to Wikipedia, since it showed that its accuracy was comparable to the most "serious" encyclopedia that EB is considered to be. EB was outraged by the result and even took out newspaper ads protesting it. Anyway, check out this BBC news story and our Encyclopedia Britannica article. The moral is though that EB is a source like any other, and it needs to be crosschecked.
- At this point, all I am asking for is a bit more solid sourcing than a passing mention in an EB article about mathematics. If Abakanowicz is well known as a Lithuanian (in Lithuania at least), that should definitely be mentioned in the article. But so far the evidence for that is thin. Balcer 20:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes Balcer, I agree the evidence is thin at the moment. But brace yourself! Meanwhile my question was meant seriously. Is there a known Polish migration to Lithuania, especially in appreciable numbers, between 1385 and 1800? Dr. Dan 20:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- I am not qualified to answer this. Balcer 20:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe someone else is. Balcer, at some time your family emmigrated to Poland from the Czech lands? I don't believe there was a massive emmigration of Czechs to Poland, nor any appreciable emmigration of Poles to Lithuania. Is anyone qualified to answer this question? Frankly, I don't think there is any evidence supporting this hypothesis. Just me? Dr. Dan 21:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yes there was. The Kingdom of Poland was quite overpopulated at several points in time and there was a major influx of Polish people in many places. For instance the very name of Masuria is derived not from the original Baltic inhabitants, but from the Masovian settlers to arrive there. After the union a large number of Poles filled the gap in cities of the GDL created by the Turkic invasions (hence for instance Ruthenian and Polish, but not really Lithuanian burghers there). As to the Bohemians, there were at least three major waves of immigration. The last of them happened in 17th century, among its descendants are inhabitants of two towns in Greater Poland who still continue the Czech traditions. //Halibutt 01:10, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- As to his nationality, we could of course call him a Russian engineer, but no doubt he'd be soon moved to the name of Brunonas Abdankas-Abakanevičius anyway... //Halibutt 01:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, don't start this over in your typical "cause dissension" style. As I told Balcer, I would prefer not to turn this into the typical three-ringed Circus that's been the case elsewhere. It can be examined without the "cute" innuendo that you accuse everybody else of injecting into these discussions, and have already started to do so here. Just the facts, please. And slow down your deletion of proposed stubs. When this is over, there may be a need for the category: Lithuanian mathematicians, with Bruno included. Perhaps you deleted the proposed stub because you doubt that there are any Lithuanian mathematicians? Try to take the high road on this one. Dr. Dan 14:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- Per Wikipedia:Stub, a new stub category should contain between 100 and 300 entries. Somehow, I doubt one would find over 100 notable Lithuanian mathematicians, so Halibutt was right to remove that empty stub category, unlikely to be ever created, which was very unsightly anyway (with its red link and all). Balcer 14:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- Dr. Dan, making explicit what Polish Wikipedia says in the lead was a low blow. That kind of point belongs in the discussion, not in the article lead. Are you serious about making this a good article, or is this just another round of your fight with Polish Wikipedians? One more move like this, and my involvement in any discussion with you is over. Balcer 15:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry you are calling my edit a low blow, I thought it pertinent. Let's not start this up all over again. What would be so terrible, if it turns out that Abankanowicz was a Lithuanian. Not the end of the world! Nor a slur against Poland's national integrity! Not a cause for a duel! Not a cause for Renata or Halibutt to return! That's their business, and personally I think it's unfortunate they left (you can bet Halibutt will be around inspite of his departure), but people are free to do as they wish. I thank God, I come from a free country, and I too, can come and go as I please on WP. So can you! As much as I enjoy interacting with you, if you choose to end any discussion with me, Bon chance. Dr. Dan 03:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- I have no problem with any nationality, and I certainly do not exclude the possibility that Abaknowicz was in fact Lithuanian (more power to him). I do find it distasteful if any Wikipedian, in a blind desire to promote his pet issue, seizes on the briefest possible mention in Encyclopedia Britannica of a certain otherwise completely unverified fact, to build an entire edifice upon it (that edifice here being the Lithuanian nationality of Abakanowicz). This to me is simply a sad abandonment of critical judgement and reason to stroke one's own nationalist ego, and it truly pains me to see it. If Abakanowicz is indeed a famous Lithuanian, there should be countless ways to demonstrate this, without stooping to this level of "proof". Balcer 03:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- Don't feel I'm stooping to any level, other than stating a reality expressed on Polish WP, sourced by EB. No blind desire, no pet issue, but forced to challenge the same old arguments fighting information that does not fit into their weltanshauung of things. Dr. Dan 04:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe we are on a different wavelength concerning the level of accuracy that Wikipedia should aspire to. Let me check by asking a simple question. If you were writing a Wikipedia article related to medicine, would you include some fact or claim solely because it was mentioned in passing in one sentence on EB, or would you crosscheck with other sources? Balcer 04:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- An interesting biographical note: [1]. //Halibutt 09:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, interesting indeed. BTW, obviously there was no need for Dr. Dan to rejoice, afterall. No need to welcome you back, as you really never left us, po prostu. Dr. Dan 13:02, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
FYI Lithuanian name of Ukmergė - Wilkemirgene is first metioned in 1225, in German chronicles so quit stalking.--Lokyz 10:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yup, Dan, I never even intended to leave Wikipedia. No idea where did you get that impression from.
- Lokyz, the town was renamed to Ukmerge in 1918 or 1919. Until then even the Lithuanian name was different (Vilkmerge or Wilkmerge). So, Abakanowicz was not born in Ukmerge since the name did not exist back then. Similarly, if a person was born in 1830 in St. Petersburg, should we say she or he was born in Leningrad? //Halibutt 19:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- Nope, Hali, never said you intended to leave WP. But you referred to some nonsense that I would be rejoicing, because you agreed to leave the Polish-Lithuanian scene. Wasn't planning to rejoice, and you weren't planning to leave. Or did I get it wrong? Now to business, since you disagree about the name of the town he was born in (and you're right, btw), do you disagree that he was born in Lithuania too? Dr. Dan 13:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC) p.s. Similarly, if a person was born in 1943 in Rahmel, should we say she or he was born in Rumia?
Thank you Balcer, although I'd use another one term - not state, but nation. It did exist until let's say 1907 (until thye major clashes between nationalists outshadowed heritage that became exchainging coin), an if Halibutt insists - let it be, 1918.--Lokyz 21:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Halibitu, do you want to review all of the post-partitions szlachta as Rusian-Polish? I do agree, let's begin with Pilsudski. --Lokyz 21:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Request for sources[edit]
We need an end to this silliness. Could the Lithuanian editors in this dispute cite any sources at all besides the brief encyclopedia mention that point to Bruno Abakanowicz being a Lithuanian? Of course English language scholarly references would be the best, but even Lithuanian sources would be welcome. The current sourcing given as justification for including him in the Lithuanian categories is just not good enough.
Believe me, if there is backing for recognizing Abakanowicz as a Lithuanian, that will make me very happy, as at least we will have one entry in Lithuanian mathematicians and inventors categories, and I hate empty categories. But the current tactic of pinning the whole claim on one minimal mention in Encyclopedia Britannia borders on childishness. Wikipedia should aspire to a higher standard of sourcing and referencing. In an effort to label somebody as a Lithuanian, are all standards to be abandoned? I hope not.Balcer 21:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, her's my opinion:
- AFAIK, and as his name (and sources given a bit earlier suggests he was neither Lithuanian neither Polish in his ethnicity,and rather is someone who deserved heritage of former GDL (one of the rare Tatarian kind, brouht to protect Vytautas, and still loyal to remains of Lithuanian state heritage.
- City name wher he has been born might be/is still disputable
- Former Republic of Two nations clearly denotes two different statehood tradition, although similar culture is not disputable
- A nationality in 19th century was not defined by former(current) statehood, unless someone had another preferences
- A language used to communicate with other educated people does not denote someone's nationality: because I'm absolutely sure he wrote his major works wether in French (lingua franca used even by Sienkiewicz) or some form of Polish - another ligua franca used in all former lands of GDL and Krown.
- I still think he was more matematician than used excercise in politics--Lokyz 21:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- I personally am not very concerned how we name the city, or how we specify which state it used to belong to. I also agree with your points about nationality not being defined by language or statehood etc. However, I do not agree with trying to guess what his name suggests, or speculations about whether he remained loyal to Lithuanian state heritage. This might all be true, but we must find sources for it. Remember WP:NOR.
- So, at this point let me make a very simple request: could one of the Lithuanian editors please let us know what Lithuanian sources say about Abakanowicz? What does the main Lithuanian encyclopedia say about him? Are there any resources available online which describe the Lithuanian point of view concerning his nationality? That will establish some basic ground rules for this discussion. If it can be shown that major Lithuanian sources consider him a Lithuanian, we leave the Lithuanian categories, otherwise we will have to reconsider seriously whether they are valid. Balcer 00:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Let me make a simple request to you, Balcer. Your suggestions will be honored and investigated. Leave it at that. In the meantime, let's skip original research or any intelligent deduction out of our argument too. Otherwise we'd be forced to ask how is it possible that all of the contributions in the humanities and sciences out of Lithuania were from Poles? And that the people we are dealing with that were born in Lithuania, were actually Poles or Russians who ended up there as a result of migration, and were able to improve mankind as a result. Ironically, so many famous Poles came out of Lithuania, that it's another reason to be glad they migrated there. More power to Poland. Dr. Dan 01:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- I am somewhat puzzled how to respond to this. Are you suggesting that I really think that "all of the contributions in the humanities and sciences out of Lithuania were from Poles"? I assure you that I do not think that, and if I ever need to reassure myself over this, I can always check out List of Lithuanians (yes, I know, some people there have been "fought over", but only a small minority, I hope). Also, do you believe that human families, over a few generations, cannot change over from one culture to another, starting out as Lithuanians and eventually becoming Poles (or the other way around)? I think it is certainly possible, hence immigration is not required to have native "Poles from Lithuania", so to speak. One certain proof of this must be the case of Gabriel Narutowicz and Stanislovas Narutavičius. Balcer 02:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Lithuanian encyclopedia (interwar one) short mentions him as a son of 1863 insurgent form Kaunas, who was sent to Siberia. No nationality is mentioned.
- As for Tatar - this is not speculation, only information form a link provided by Halibutt a bit earlier
[2] - let me cite: "Bruno Abakanowicz pochodził ze starego rodu tatarskiego herbu Abdank osiadłego przed kilkoma wiekami na Litwie. Twierdził, że naprawdę nazywa się Abak-Chanowicz,"--Lokyz 10:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Lokyz, as to your recent revert: do you really need a source for the date of the partitions of Poland? You claim that the area was annexed by Russia in 1852. I'd rather say that it was annexed by Russia in 1795. Do you need a source for that? //Halibutt 10:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Well, was it a part of Russia at 1852 or not? I didn't write "being annexed at the time". If you do not like wording we may freely return to "at the time a part of the Russian Empire". As for PLC and GDL, well - I've shown you citation of Baranauskas - it is contemporary POV to the legacy PLC [3] stating that it was never part of Poland. I thought you might be interested. And one short remark - Litwins in this context are all citizens of GDL, not only ethnic Lithuanians. And of course, you do understand, that it is not a citation of "some guy, known only to Lithuanians"--Lokyz 11:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the sources. His Tatar ancestry is very interesting and we should incorporate it into the article. It is interesting that the Lithuanian encyclopedia does not mention his nationality explicitly. I am not sure how to interpret this though, because Polish PWN or Wiem do not mention it explicitly either, as that is their standard practice when writing about Poles. Could the Lithuanian Encyclopedia be following a similar approach? Anyway, is there any modern, online Lithuanian encyclopedia that we could consult here?
- I guess the outcome of this discussion will revolve around the definition of Lithuanian that we agree on. Do we define this identity primarily by language and self-definition, or do we count anyone "rooted in the traditions" of the Lithuanian part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, however we define that? Balcer 12:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps if you apply the same definition you use to define Pole, and agree upon, you'll have your answer. And you'll avoid original research. I'm sure you can appreciate this in light of many Poles being denied their birthright by the Austro-Hungarians, Germans, and Russians until Poland regained its independence, and the ability to freely express its history. Please think about it. Dr. Dan 13:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- I appreciate the problem you are referring to, but I am also aware that after the Partitions millions of Poles (or more generally citizens of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) decided to become Russians, Austrians and Germans, hence the large number of Polish sounding surnames in those countries. I respect the choice these people made, and I would not force the Polish nationality on them posthumously, especially if the culture switch occured some generations back. In that light, I think the only way to count someone as a Pole during the Partitions, at least for the purposes of Wikipedia with its NPOV policy, would be to count only those who self-defined themselves as Poles in their writings and statements, or who belonged to clearly Polish organisations.Balcer 13:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Are we going to have articles about individual Polish peasants? I don't see a problem here. Furthermore, peasants only started to identify themselves as Poles (and not simply "locals") in a gradual process, so yes, we cannot assume anything about a peasant living near Krakow, Lublin or Warsaw during those times. Balcer 13:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Well, it is actually difficult to determine this language vs tradition case. There were a lot of "polish speaking Lithuanians", as they described themselves in 19th century, and some tension between "Koroniarzy" and "Litwins" did exist for a long time. Believe me, I do not have an intension to steal someone's identity be it Polish or Lithuanian and change it by force. Although I just wanted to point out, that at this period of time linguistical national identity was not completely formed (and was used mostly by nationalists of both sides), and both forms did coexist for some time. So to say, he was speaking Polish - hence he was Polish is not necessary right. At the time Polish language was widely used by many ethnic Lithuanians, including already mentioned Baranauskas, as an "international" language (lingva franca) or "fathers" language, while Lithuanian was still used for all his life as "mothers" language.
- And again I think in this case we have too little information about his choice of nationality, to decide it at a glance. And of course, this mentioning in EB is a bit confusing.
- And the most confusing part is this separation - Lithuanian in traditional sense of a citizen of GDL, and ethnic Lithuanian, that's why so many pikes are broken nowadays, and some consensus is needed. Halibutt and Piotrus suggestion to use Polish-Lithuanian is only partial solution, IMO, although it did really help unload lots of unnecessary tension.--Lokyz 14:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- I appreciate the points you are making. However, Abakanowicz was born in 1852 and his adult years fall into the period 1870-1900 which is fairly late into the Partitions. I am not entirely convinced whether the concept of the "traditional citizen of the GDL or PLC", which no doubt would be valid for the first half of the 19th century, really has that much usefulness 70 to 100 years after the Commonwealth's demise. Please correct me if you think I am wrong. Anyway, it is certain that by 1900 many people identified themselves as fully Lithuanian or fully Polish, rejecting any identification with the Commonwealth which by then was dead for 100 years. So, it remains to determine which category Abakanowicz fit himself into, or whether he even cared about the issue.
- Anyway, at this point I am fine with leaving in the Lithuanian categories, though I would remove this direct mention of Encyclopedia Britannica, which sounds awkward and is only confusing, as you said. It remains to be decided how to nicely explain his nationality, with reference to the Tatar roots.Balcer 14:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Balcer, I strongly disagree that the Encyclopedia Britannica entry is awkward. Nothing POV about it either. You've expressed your displeasure regarding it, and amazingly called it's inclusion a low blow. You also expressed an opinion of how the "mathematician" who wrote the article probably made a mistake. I think it's more your opinion than the EB author's. Dr. Dan 14:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- You are wrong. I only called your specific reference to the Polish Wikipedia statement a low blow. As you well know, Wikipedia and its sister projects cannot cite themselves as references, so your inclusion was put there only to score a debating point, and we have the talk page for that.
- As this whole discussion is showing, calling Abakanowicz simply a "Lithuanian mathematician" is a great oversimplification, and hence wrong. It follows that the author of the EB article made a mistake, or at least a mental shortcut, by oversimplifying the issue of his nationality, though of course we cannot blame him much because a brief encyclopedia entry related to mathematics cannot contain an extended discussion about nationalities. We, on the other hand, who are writing an article devoted to Abakanowicz, and do not face length restrictions, can avoid these difficulties. We do not have to parrot EB's oversimplification here. Balcer 14:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Trust me, GDL traditions were preserved in many families until 1863, after that they began to diminish, but there are reminders to be found up until WWII. There are examples of Tadas Ivanauskas, Michał Römer and the group of historians at Stefan Batory university, although they were quite minority at the time.
- Main distinction and distance between nationalists and traditionalists emerged somewhere around 1880, and was completely finished on the verge of centuries. In 1863 uprisal there still was this "for our and your freedom" slogan that didn't had any note of nationalism.
- And saying that this mention in EB is confusing, I for sure didn't mean to remove it. It simply means, that there are some sources to prove his Lithuanian connections, and even provided not by Lithuanian POV'ed nationalists.
- And Balcer - you've just entered WP:NOR territory, by deciding what was or was not editor of EB thinking, assuming what he did know or what he didn't --Lokyz 15:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Strictly speaking WP:NOR applies to articles only, not to talk pages, but I see your point. The direct quote of EB reference in the lead is inappropriate, and sounds awkward anyway. We can shift it to a footnote, if you like, once we rewrite the lead so that it incorporates some of the points in this discussion. I can't emphasize it enough: a brief, passing mention of Abakanowicz's nationality in a brief EB article on the subject of mathematics should not be put on a pedestal. Try to understand that it is self defeating from your point of view. Sure, some people who are impressed with Encyclopedia Britannica will read this and accept what it says unquestioningly. But others, like me, will read it, maybe check the relevant EB entry and come away with the conviction that somebody is desperate to assign Abakanowicz the Lithuanian nationality based on this flimsy mention, and not be convinced at all. It's your choice how you want to play it, I will certainly not fight revert wars over keeping the explicit mention of EB. Balcer 15:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- And you have enough facts to decide his nationality by the fact that he spoke Polish and French, and was of Lithuanian Tatar origin, and was a friend with Sienkewicz. Does this prove anything? Barely: I do also speak Polish, have friends and even relatives in Poland, even read Sienkiewicz - does this make me Polish?
- Removing direct reference from authoritative source is hm, problematic, because any mentions of nationality in any encyclopedia are flimsy, i.e. unexplained in details. Does this make a problem?
- A sidenote: does EB mention it's article editors? it would help a bit. --Lokyz 15:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Well, he wrote for Polish literary journals, which did not have too many non-Poles writing for them. But I agree, additional sources in support of his Polish nationality should be provided. And hopefully they will be, as this discussion is ongoing.
- As for Encyclopedia Britannica, it is certainly not considered the "must-include" authoritative reference on Wikipedia, as I know from personal experience. In a long debate over whether to call Copernicus a Polish astronomer the argument that this term should be used because EB uses it in the first sentence of its article about him was not accepted. Now, could I fight revert wars to include in the lead of that article: "EB calls Copernicus a Polish astronomer"? Sure I could. But I won't because: 1. it would make me look foolish 2. it's not accepted by the community 3. if someone wants Britannica's point of view, they can read Britannica, not Wikipedia.
- I think EB names the editors who write major articles, but I am not sure about brief entries. Balcer 15:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Baranauskas also wrote poetry in Polish. Even Smetona did write into Polish newspapers. --Lokyz 15:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Good point, which is why I said that more evidence is still needed. Still, we have a bit of a problem. Ideally, we would find some writing of Abakanowicz where he unambiguously calls himself a Lithuanian, a Pole, or a Frenchman, and that would be the end of the story. If we don't find such a passage, what do we do? What would be considered good enough evidence to assign him exclusively to any of these nationalities? Or do we simply make a case that he should be considered Polish-Lithuanian-French, and maybe Russian? Just list the arguments for each, and that would be the end of it. But rational, intelligent arguments (backed by references of course so we don't violate WP:NOR), not the somewhat childish and unconvincing "because Britannica sez so". Balcer 16:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- It is interesting to note how things degenerate over time. Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 edition has a beautiful, comprehensive article on mechanical integrators and related matters (here). In it, it mentions Abdank-Abakakoniwcz without specifying his nationality. The current EB edition has a short joke of an article a few sentences long. Then again, I guess mechanical integrators are no longer on the leading edge of technology, like they were in those days. Balcer 16:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Finally, something solid. Bruno Abdank Abakanowicz has his own entry in the Polish Biographical Dictionary (in fact, given his name, he was the first name in volume I, see http://www.psb.pan.krakow.pl/). Now this is not a proof of anything yet, since that dictionary does not contain only Poles, but also non-Poles active in Poland, but it should be a treasure trove of information about him. Does anyone participating in this discussion have an easy access to this dictionary? My university may have only an abridged version, but I will check. Balcer 17:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Jewish descent?[edit]
Many discussions concerning this persons nationality have been held. Nevertheless, regarding his surname and a significant Jewish minority in Ukmergė at that time, may his Jewish origin be considered as well? (it is a mere assumption, however) Iulius 19:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Sure. Sources would be nice though. Balcer 19:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Due to the fact that documents of that time see in him a Russian, i added him to the Russian category to. Nevertheless, due to the fact that his nationality is desputed i havent deleted the other once. No Free Nickname Left 16:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
More on "Nonsense"[edit]
For the benefit of Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus, I have to agree that my edit was inadvertently "nonsense", and your reverting it was appropriate. I hope that you agree that the entire premise is also nonsense. Therefore I have deleted all of it. Dr. Dan (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Would like to request a citation from presented sources to support assertion that Also, the origin of his lastname is in a Polish szlachta. M.K. (talk) 11:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
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Utah Utes football: Jason Whittingham has earned his playing time at U.
SALT LAKE CITY — After most of his teammates had left the practice field one day last week, Utah linebacker Jason Whittingham was still out there running extra gassers — doing so of his own volition.
As the nephew of head coach Kyle Whittingham, the redshirt freshman is determined to show he's got game to go along with his name.
"I've got to prove myself not only to my teammates but to my uncle as well because he's the one who decided to give me my scholarship," Jason said. "I have to let them know that they made the right decision."
The Utes, however, already know it.
Jason is slated to be a starter on every special teams unit this season and is the backup at stud linebacker, holding a similar position as an inside 'backer in the nickel package.
"He's a guy who is going to be a factor for us this year," Kyle said, while noting that every player at Utah is treated the same and that Jason has earned his spots on the depth chart. "I haven't forced him to do anything extra but I think he's pressing and trying to prove that he belongs."
Jason's determination has paid off in the past.
As a senior at Timpview High School in 2009, he proved to be a quick study in the shot put. After being enlisted to join a team in need of more points in field events, Whittingham rose to the top in just two weeks — winning individual and team titles at the state meet following a crash course in the sport from his father, Cary.
The elder Whittingham, who had a stellar football career at BYU, broke the state record in the shot put during his four-year track career at Provo High School. Cary is convinced Jason would have done the same if he had invested a similar amount of time into the sport.
Jason's passions, however, were baseball and football. He pursued the latter after earning all-state honors as a senior. The fact that Utah was the only major program to actively recruit him has served as motivation and put a self-described "chip on his shoulder."
The lack of recruiting attention, though, likely has more to do with the Whittingham name than anything else. Cary acknowledged that the close-knit family bond left little doubt as to where his son would play his college ball if an opportunity arose.
Kyle agreed.
"My take on the non-recruiting is I think people assumed he was going to come our way," Kyle said while noting that Jason was a very good high school player and everything you look for in a linebacker.
"He loves football," Cary said. "He's hard-working and is a physical specimen."
At 6-foot-2 and 240 pounds with a 6-foot-8 wingspan, Jason has a lot of tools for the game. Kyle compares his size and skills to those of Cary, noting that both of them are good ballplayers.
Cary, though, shakes off any comparisons to the Whittingham family tree. Jason, he explained, is probably more athletic than all of them.
And he's seemingly getting better with age.
Cary considers Jason "a real late bloomer" who got bigger and more explosive as a high school senior. The physical development continued when Jason left to serve an LDS Church mission in South Carolina and during a redshirt year at Utah that followed.
"I still see him maturing and improving quite a bit just based on that," said Cary, who wouldn't be surprised to see Jason add more height and weight to his frame at Utah.
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"It's not easy coming back after two years and getting right back into the swing of things," Jason said. "But I've been back about a year now. I've worked my way back and I feel comfortable with where I am."
Being the head coach's nephew, though, will always have its challenges. Cary considers it a double-edged sword for Jason — providing both motivation and pressure.
The combination, thereof, could have positive ramifications.
"(Jason) doesn't need to prove anything because he really has earned everything he has gotten. His uncle is not going to give him anything he has not earned," Cary said. "(Jason) is 100 percent committed to showing that there's absolutely no favoritism there and he'll work as hard as it takes to convince other people of that."
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"Very cool. I love the neutrals in this design.…" read »
- DayLilly aka Del on "Seaside Boho":
"Thanks to everyone. The little shell beads come from Blue Moon. They come in different colors.…" read »
- Nancy Mc on "Pearl-licious":
"Superb work. I also admire your wire work. Love the silver and pearls,and the different types of…" read »
- Batticat on "Jakarta":
"I looked again. Are those copper beads individual spacers you grouped together? Either way they work…" read »
- Batticat on "Jakarta":
"I would love to wear this. I like the wire coiling in the little white beads.…" read »
- sweetjane on "Neutrals":
"Thanks for all the comments!…" read »
- sweetjane on "Golem "Paisley"":
"Thanks for all the comments! I think I had been waiting for the right inspiration.…" read »
- Batticat on "Seaside Boho":
"Very pretty and nice to wear with casual clothes. I don't think I've seen beads like…" read »
- Medieval Momma on "Seek Wisdom":
"This is just so stinkin' cute!…" read »
- Medieval Momma on "Leather and PC Triple Wrap":
"Wow! Those PC beads are so awesome!…" read »
- Medieval Momma on "Sunshine of My Soul":
"Such a happy mix of colors!…" read »
- Medieval Momma on "Seaside Boho":
"So cool!…" read »
- Nancy Mc on "Naturally...Unnatural but Beautiful":
"Kat,these are stunning! I love Rainbow Calsilica,no matter where it comes from,or who did what in…" read »
- DeedeeAray on "Pearl-licious":
"Thank you ladies, your all so kind. Yes Fresh I agree, the no tarnish wire…" read »
- JC Hamm on "Earrings for Valentine's Day":
"Love, love and love!!!!…" read »
- JC Hamm on "Redesigned earrings":
"Love both pairs! Your wire work is fab, I love to work with copper as well.These…" read »
- JC Hamm on "Druzy Queen":
"Yup another WOW!!…" read »
- JC Hamm on "Copper Mine":
"All your work is wonderful, you really put a lot into your pieces. They are all…" read »
- JC Hamm on "Pearl-licious":
"Absolutely beautiful, your wire work is fantastic. !! Well done!!…" read »
- JC Hamm on "Seaside Boho":
"I love this, beautiful!!…" read »
- Asia on "Seaside Boho":
"Del, love everything about this, your choice of beads is amazing, it just compliments this great…" read »
- Elis Mom on "Pearl-licious":
"I just love these! A bold and elegant statement!…" read »
- Batticat on "Old Watch Bracelets":
"Very funky and fun!…" read »
- Chicky Zee aka Alice on "Lightly Chained":
"Beautiful!…" read »
- Chicky Zee aka Alice on "Beach Treasures":
"Fabulous!…" read »
- Chicky Zee aka Alice on "Bold Brown Boho":
"WOW!…" read »
- Chicky Zee aka Alice on "Druzy Queen":
"Fabulous and congrats on your sale!…" read »
About this design:
I have had these white "turquoise" pieces for over a year, but just had not been able to get a design in my "mind's eye." When I did, they went together quite easily (whew!) and I am happy with the results. I didn't put the white stones all the way around because 1) I love the copper, and 2) I didn't want the person wearing it to have to tip forward:)
white "turquoise" shapes, Bali style antique copper beads, toggle claspRead the comments (or add your own)
On Mar 09, 2010 at 12:04 am #
grama rose aka stormy says:Way way cool Kathryn this is a statement piece and so pretty…great job!!!
On Mar 09, 2010 at 12:52 am #
Diane Cauley says:I'm with D! Awesome piece! Would wear it if it tipped me over or not
On Mar 09, 2010 at 12:55 am #
Faithful Chick aka Faith says:This is so awsome. I love this. The beads are wonderful and I love copper.
On Mar 09, 2010 at 1:24 am #
Buster Browns MoM says:this is an awesome piece, i love big and chunky and the copper goes with the white perfectly..
On Mar 09, 2010 at 4:03 am #
Vampire Chickie Ravin says:This is awesome, would sooo wear it, wouldn't tip me over either, I'm 6 ft tall 210 lbs, Woot! lol gorgeous!
On Mar 09, 2010 at 8:17 am #
Green Eyed Lady Chick says:Sooo love this necklace an absolute winner!!!
On Mar 09, 2010 at 8:21 am #
Judith Ann Boyer says:LOL! Reminds me of Wilma Flinstone…I love it!!:)
I know what you mean about top heavy, I have had to redesign a few necklaces in my day…:) Beautiful piece and I love the matching pieces as well! -
On Mar 09, 2010 at 9:06 am #
K H says:I like the balance – usually you see an odd number of large beads, using an even number of large beads is like thinking outside the box!!!!!
On Mar 09, 2010 at 10:14 am #
Cuban Queen Crazy Chick says:What a fabulous necklace, I bet it looks great on!
On Mar 09, 2010 at 11:02 am #
Marian C says:I would love to wear this! Love the combination of stones and copper!
On Mar 09, 2010 at 1:46 pm #
KittyMom Linda says:Ok, here's the necklace – was on next page. Gorgeous – yep, perfect with the bracelet and now where are the earrings?
On Mar 09, 2010 at 4:16 pm #
Kathryn Lobert says:Linda – the earrings are just in a picture with the pics of the bracelet:) Thank you everyone – this was a bit "out of the box" for me. I love the challenge of always changing up my "style" – whatever it may be. I want you to know that your comments and compliments mean so much because I have seen your work and you each are so talented. This is such an encouraging place to be. Thank you.
On Mar 09, 2010 at 4:19 pm #
Kathryn Lobert says:Ravin – we would certainly look like Mutt and Jeff together (an old timey comic strip:). You are tall and slim and I am short (5'2″) and not:) I have finally achieved the honor of being the tallest of the 3 sisters in our family – the middle one was always shorter, and the eldest one has shrunk 2 inches:) You gotta take tall where you can get it:)
Add your thoughts!
On Mar 03, 2015 at 2:20 am
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My first appt is tomorrow! I'm guessing about 9w1d. The wait has been killing me since I've know since week 3! And coming off of 2 miscarriages I've been quite nervous other than the fact I'm ridiculously sick! Can't wait!
Comments (4)
keithandjanelle · Original Poster
Posted 03/20/2013
Great news! All is well! Only 1 baby and we saw the heartbest! Plus they moved my due date up 3 days! Doesn't seem like much now, but I know come October those 3 days will mean a lot LOL!
Posted 03/20/2013
Good luck! I had mine today and it was the most amazing experience ever. The wait for the appointment was torture but such a relief to see the beautiful baby growing inside of you!
What's on your mind?
Create a new postYour growing child
Your 16-month-old: Week 1
Your child's understanding of the world is growing rapidly. Read More


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Ultimate Anti-Aging Guide
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Kim Kardashian's Complete Beauty Evolution
Tracking the beauty transformation of the reality-TV-star-turned-entertainment-mogul.
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Gwyneth Paltrow Announced as Creative Director for Juice Beauty
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Apparently folks in the Christian Quiverfull movement are being targeted with another message that conveniently increases the size of the flock: there is a global orphan crisis--163 million children in the Third World in need. The actual statistic is 17 million orphaned children, many of whom live with other family members. What does it mean for the people of Third World nations when hoards of well-intentioned American Christian families seek to rescue these non-existent orphans? A slew of…
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Patty emailed to let me know that we have a new Nestle Candy Bar Catalina starting up next week at Kroger:
Nestle Crunch Single or Share Pack Bars Catalina (1.55 or 2.75 oz)
Effective 3/2 to 4/27
Buy 3 or more and get a 75¢ off your next order Catalina
Keep in mind that Nestle Candy bars are on sale Buy 2 Get 1 Free this week at Kroger. That means that when the Catalina starts on Monday, you can pick up candy bars for just 40¢ each!
Butterfinger or Nestle Crunch Candy, .77 to 2.1 oz, B2G1 $0.97
Buy 3 Nestle bars and pay just 40¢ each after Catalina!
Add this deal to your shopping list over at the Kroger Ad and Matching Coupons week of 2/25 to 3/3.
Patty has an entry into this week's Email & Win contest. If you find a deal at Kroger make sure you email me for your entry!


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SOURCE: Stone Pages Archaeo News
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Pagans, partygoers greet solstice at Stonehenge
Pagans and partygoers drummed, danced or gyrated in hula hoops to stay awake through the night, around 36,500 people greeted the summer solstice at the ancient stone circle of Stonehenge (Wiltshire, England). Despite fears of trouble because of the record-sized crowd, police said the annual party at the mysterious monument was mostly peaceful.
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- German Historian: Rich Greeks Evade Taxes Since 1830
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- The move accelerates to show that black people have a history
- Eric Foner says he insisted on his MOOC on the Civil War being free
- Ellen Schrecker backs "National Adjunct Walkout Day" as a brilliant tactic


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11 Chilling Depictions Of Iconic Cartoon Characters In Scenes Of Domestic Violence
The illustrated series "What Kind Of Man Are You?" by artist aleXsandro Palombo uses familiar childhood images to spread awareness about a horrific societal truth. Warning: graphic depictions.
Italian artist aleXsandro Palombo believes that iconic cultural images wield a strong ability to spread important messages.
A past project, sampled above, reimagined Disney princesses as being physically disabled.
His latest project uses familiar characters to portray the widespread horrors of domestic violence.
"What Kind Of Man Are You?" leaves viewers with the message that domestic violence is a problem so widespread and well-silenced that its victims and perpetrators could be anyone, even families that appear to be normal, women who keep up heroic fronts, and couples that appear to have had a fairytale ending.


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A List Of 51 British-Made Games Coming Out In 2015
Briefly: Our UK sister site has released an immense list of 51 British-made games that will (or should) be coming out this year, from triple-A greats like Arkham Knight to indie titles like No Man's Sky or I Am Bread. Check it out here.
Kirk Helps Stephen Figure Out What's Good About Danganronpa
A couple of Kotaku staffers love Danganronpa, the weirdly named Japanese visual novels/murder mysteries released on the Vita in the U.S. this year. I figured I should try one by year's end. I knew going in that I was in for a rough time.
Short Clip Celebrates PlayStation's 20th Birthday
The 20th anniversary of the first PlayStation console's Japanese release is fast approaching, and Sony's here to commemorate it with — what else — a montage.
Giant Vita Is The World's Most Pointless Handheld
The PS Vita TV has problems. Cramming it inside an oversized handheld shell to make it "portable" is not going to fix any of them.


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A distribution list is a list of email addresses. Once set up, you can send a message to everyone on the list simply by sending the message to the list name.
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TD-Complete Submission
What to expect when you're expecting (an acceptance letter)
4.16 / 5.00 3,230 ViewsEdit
Two awards and a spot in the top 50? (Which will be gone in a matter of minutes, but still.) Awesome.
The animation is about 9:00 minutes, so get a snack.
HAHA!! THat was HILLARIOUS! The ending is always the best. xDDD
"-Dramatic stuff- HAHAHA! What a fucking fag." lmfao xD
Oh my gawsh :o
That was fantasteek. I felt like I was watching Family Guy or something. I love how you've now got a storyline but still incorparated jokes in their. It's great, keep up the good work.
Mesa luv you long time.


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Kukla's Korner Hockey
Caps Want "D" From AO
by Paul on 01/24/07 at 12:01 AM ET
Comments (0)
from the Washington Post,
But the remarkable statistics and extensive collection of highlights aren't enough for Capitals Coach Glen Hanlon and General Manager George McPhee. They want more from their prodigy—much more, in fact. But what they seek won't always be reflected in box scores or celebrated on sports highlight shows.
"He's already proven to a lot of people that he's an elite player," McPhee said. "But he wants to win a Cup. Our objective is to find how he can help us get there. Look at a player like Steve Yzerman. For years, he scored lots of points, but he really needed to learn how to play defense in order to win a championship."
read on (reg. may be req.)
Filed in: | KK Hockey | Permalink
Rail Cam Talk
by Paul on 01/23/07 at 09:44 PM ET
Comments (0)
Rail Cam is being used tonight by Versus. What do you think?
One thing I noticed, they took my suggestion (lol) and made it white instead of the black we saw in November.
Filed in: | KK Hockey | Permalink
For The Good Of The Game
by Paul on 01/23/07 at 09:30 PM ET
Comments (0)
from Scott Burnside at ESPN,
It's a bit disappointing," said Edmonton Oilers chairman Cal Nichols, whose team has fought fiercely to have the schedule altered to allow more games outside the conference. "I think the best we can hope for is to go back to pre-lockout scheduling. The Western Canadians teams really made a strong case for going back to that. I think the Canadian hockey fans would sooner see us play the other Canadian teams than any U.S. teams."
More interesting was Nichols' suggestion that NHL commissioner Gary Bettman should have stepped up and helped persuade owners to make a change.
Asked if Bettman should have shown more leadership, a surprisingly candid Nichols said, "I wish he would have."
Nichols said he believed Bettman should have encouraged teams that were opposed to change "to do the right things for the game."
read on... and on a sidenote, Detroit media have been slamming the NHL all day because of this decision…
Filed in: | KK Hockey | Permalink
Pa. Gov. May Ask For Help From The NHL
by Paul on 01/23/07 at 09:23 PM ET
Comments (0)
from the AP via Sports Illustrated,
Gov. Ed Rendell said Tuesday that should arena negotiations with the Pittsburgh Penguins break down and the team decide to move, the state might ask the National Hockey League to intercede.
Rendell, responding to Penguins owner Mario Lemieux's comments that last week's arena talks had taken a step backward, said the latest proposal is so good that he can't imagine that the NHL would allow the Penguins to leave.
"Is there a possibility that they will decide to leave? Yes, there is," Rendell said. "But is there a possibility we would go to the NHL board of governors and say, `Hey, if you let them leave, no city is safe?' Sure."
Filed in: | KK Hockey | Permalink
The Lack Of Freezing
by Paul on 01/23/07 at 09:17 PM ET
Comments (0)
from the Christian Science Monitor,
It used to be that sometime in November Canadians could flatten out the snow behind the house, let the water hose run for a few hours, and get a nice flat sheet of ice.
But warm weather is ruining that Canadian tradition: the backyard skating rink. It is also helping a company that sells artificial rinks that cost about the same as a swimming pool.
The outdoor rinks – which can be either portable or permanent – use plastic pipes and a refrigeration unit to make an ice rink, even when temperatures are well above freezing.
Filed in: | KK Hockey | Permalink
NHL Streaming
by Paul on 01/23/07 at 07:35 PM ET
Comments (0)
5:30 p.m. to 7 p.m. ET - All-Star Entertainment (video)
7:30 p.m. ET - NHL YoungStars Game, presented by Upper Deck and Dodge/Nitro SuperSkills (audio)
Watch.... Right now, players are on the red carpet, entering the arena.
Tonight's TV Schedule
Young Stars early, followed by Skills Competition
Filed in: | KK Hockey | Permalink
The Maven At The Break
by Paul on 01/23/07 at 07:23 PM ET
Comments (0)
from Stan Fischler at MSG Network,
• Is a Darcy Tucker-to-Edmonton move possible? Perhaps, if the Oilers return with Raffi Torres and prospects.
• Glenn Healy is rapidly becoming the New Don Cherry for Canadian hockey broadcasts but he admits that he made one statement on the air that he would like to have recalled; Rat's rectum. I used it on a couple of occasions and I was told not to use it.
more from the Maven…
Filed in: | KK Hockey | Permalink
Boys Hit the Track
by Paul on 01/23/07 at 07:06 PM ET
Comments (0)
(L-R) NHL All-Stars Marian Hossa (Atlanta Thrashers), Martin Havlat (Chicago Blackhawks), Jonathan Cheechoo (San Jose Sharks), Matt Carle (San Jose Sharks) and Brian Campbell (Buffalo Sabres) pose together at the Texas Motor Speedway as part of the 2007 Dallas All-Star Game on January 23, 2007 in Fort Worth, Texas. (Photo by Ronald Martinez/Getty Images)
Click the pic to enlarge and yes, some of them took a spin around the track.
Filed in: | KK Hockey | Permalink
The Commish Speaks
by Paul on 01/23/07 at 06:36 PM ET
Comments (0)
added 7:07pm, You can now watch (link takes you to page with video) the interview if you wish…
Gary Bettman took part in a media Q & A today….
Q. Commissioner, concerning Pittsburgh, when is it going to be too late for them to reach any kind of an agreement on the building?
COMMISSIONER BETTMAN: I don't think it would be constructive or wise for me to say, 'This is the date,' because deadlines, as we've seen in lots of negotiations, can come and go. The fact is, we've got to be talking about weeks. We've got a schedule to do. Arrangements have to be made. My hope is that a building on terms that make sense to the franchise will be achievable in Pittsburgh and this will become a non-issue. But at some point in the not too distant future, in a matter of weeks, we have to start focusing with some certainty on what the schedule is going to look like.
Time is of the essence, but I wouldn't want to overly portray an urgency today. It's urgent, but it's not imminently urgent, if you know what I mean. It will be shortly.
Q. Commissioner, Bill Daly mentioned yesterday that you received a new proposal for the IIHF agreement that includes Russia. Would you comment on that to say how reasonable it looks to you?
COMMISSIONER BETTMAN: Actually, I've been busy the last 18 hours since we got the proposal. So I haven't seen it in its entirety.
Bill tells me it's interesting. It probably needs some work. But we haven't had a chance to discuss it. We've been waiting for a while. It can wait until tomorrow, until I get done doing what we're doing here. But I do take it as a good sign that on some basis, even though I don't know what it is, the Russians are indicating a willingness to participate.
Filed in: | KK Hockey | Permalink
The BOG Had The Final Say
by Paul on 01/23/07 at 06:02 PM ET
Comments (0)
from Eric Duhatschek of the Globe and Mail,
Bettman, who usually says little about the internal workings of the board, acknowledged that he supported one of two alternatives, either retaining the status quo, or adopting the least dramatic change — which would have reduced the number of divisional games from eight to seven and replaced them with four out-of-conference games.
If Bettman had pushed harder for a change, could that have swung a couple of votes to the yes side?
He didn't think so.
"Some of you think I throw lightning bolts," said Bettman. "The fact is, I do report to a board and the board has the final say. "Unlike lots of other things we've done as a league, where everybody can focus on doing things from a league-wide basis, the schedule's kind of personal. It's market-specific. It's rivalry specific. It gets emotional…."
Filed in: | KK Hockey | Permalink
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About Kukla's Korner Hockey
Paul Kukla founded Kukla's Korner in 2005 and the site has since become the must-read site on the 'net for all the latest happenings around the NHL.
From breaking news to in-depth stories around the league, KK Hockey is updated with fresh stories all day long and will bring you the latest news as quickly as possible.
Email Paul anytime at firstname.lastname@example.com
Most Recent Blog Posts
The New York Islanders May Be Quiet On Monday
Video- Jaromir Jagr Talks After His First Game With The Florida Panthers
Tomas Fleischmann To The Anaheim Ducks For Dany Heatley And A 3rd Round Pick
The Calgary Flames At The Trade Deadline
About That Clarkson/Horton Trade
Report Of Washington/Carolina Trade


text:
Less than 3 1/2 minutes into the Thunder's first playoff game ever, 7-footer Pau Gasol threw a pass at the basket, and 7-footer Andrew Bynum skied to easily dunk the ball.
Thunder is better prepared this time for Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum
Uh-oh, thought everyone in Thunder blue. Just exactly how is the Thunder supposed to stop that?
Seemed like a quick series was inevitable, and though the Thunder hung tough in April 2010, taking the series to six games, no ever thought the Lakers were vulnerable.
That has changed. The Thunder team that awaits the Lakers in a Western Conference semifinal series that begins Monday night is different from those Baby Boomers of two years ago.
This Thunder team is not an upstart. Not seeking an upset. This Thunder team has legit championship aspirations. And this Thunder team was built to beat LA.
That Thunder team started Nenad Krstic and Jeff Green opposite Bynum and Gasol. This Thunder team starts Kendrick Perkins and Serge Ibaka.
Big difference. Big, big difference. Krstic was an adequate offensive center but defensively deficient. Green could score but was outmanned trying to stop big or skilled power forwards, and Gasol is both big and skilled.
Thunder mastermind Sam Presti knew that the road to NBA titles has been going through Los Angeles for 40 years. He knew Bynum or Gasol or both would be Lakers for years to come.
So Presti shipped Green to Boston for Perkins, the NBA's best post defender, and signed him to a four-year contract extension.
That trade has paid off handsomely over the last 15 months. But at no time is it more valuable than now, with another Thunder-Laker series on the starting line.
With Ibaka having grown up from a 20-year-old rookie in that first Laker series to now the league's best shot blocker, the Thunder goes into this series more able than any other NBA squad to match up with the Laker stars.
Now as then, the Thunder has Thabo Sefolosha, who can't stop Kobe Bryant but dogs the Laker legend well. But that beefed up interior defense has elevated the Thunder to championship contender.
Perk's value does not show against every opponent. He would have been only marginally helpful against the Denver jackrabbits. There were times when he wasn't needed against Dallas.
Continue reading this story on the...
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AFC President's Cup: Nepal Police Club Are Out From The AFC President's Cup Qualifiers
May 7, 2012 04:20:37 PM
Phnom Penh Crown FC shattered the hopes of Nepal Police Club (NPC) to qualify for the final round as the hosts team defeated NPC 1-0 in AFC President's Cup Qualifiers played National Olympic Stadium, Phnom Penh on Monday.
Khim Borey scored the winning goal for Phnom Penh Crown FC.
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