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35 years after the release of Chicago 13, the public tends to look at the album differently than it originally did, but not in a wide sense. Fans of Chicago can be very divided over their friendliness towards the group, with fans loving the Terry Kath era, fans that don't mind the pop craft that they engaged in in the second half of the 1970's, and those who are not afraid to embrace the lush pop that lead them to radio and many hits throughout the 1980's. Yet if there's still an album that continues to make people question its existence, it's Chicago 13.
The band had replaced original guitarist and vocalist Terry Kath with Don "Donnie" Dacus, who seemed to look and embrace the feel of other pop stars of the era like Rex Smith and Leif Garrett. He had long blonde hair, so there were some who saw his youth and looks as something that was different from what Chicago had intended. Nonetheless, the man could sing and he could play a damn good guitar, and no one said anything when their 12th album, Hot Streets, gave the world hit songs like "Alive Again" and "No Tell Lover". It was just new Chicago music, and by that point, original bassist/vocalist Peter Cetera was becoming the band's primary face.
What made Chicago 13 different was that Columbia Records decided to give the band a chance to film music videos for the songs, or what were called "promotional film clips" back then. There was no music video cable networks in 1979, so the only way you could see these film clips were on public access, in between movies on HBO (maybe), or at record stores which made a special section which involved nothing but a TV with the videos running continuously. Well, at least that's how music videos were presented in the late 70's in the U.S,. as England were utilizing music videos as part of a promotional tool for artists, songs, and albums. Here in the U.S., it was extra, if not strange, but Columbia Records were making an effort. The videos made were for the songs "Must Have Been Crazy", "Run Away", and "Street Player", and while the video seemed to get limited exposure on TV, it seemed people were not impressed by what the videos showed. "Must Have Been Crazy" showed the group jokingly lounge at home while a black cat caused terror wherever it walked. "Run Away" involved a master reel of tape going around Los Angeles as the band were practicing at a venue, while "Street Player" showed the inevitable performance. The videos showed a sense of humor that people didn't expect from them, and perhaps it was way too strange for those who just played "Another Rainy Day In New York City" or "If You Leave Me Now" in front of their couches and fantasized all day.
"Must Have Been Crazy" was Chicago 13 first single but fans didn't seem to take to it, or more specifically, hearing Dacus take a lead vocal. Chicago were known not only for Cetera, but also pianist/keyboardist Robert Lamm and guitarist Kath before he died in 1977. So who was this blonde guy singing… a Chicago song? People didn't like the mood, or it didn't catch on, or radio programmers felt it sounded different than what was going on the radio at the time, which was a whole lotta disco, or at least the last end of disco's fame and (mis)fortune. Cetera did do background vocals in the song and could be heard in the last minute, but that was not enough. It also had a pleasant guitar solo from Dacus too so if radio tried to push it while a video made tried to let people know who Dacus was, it failed.
"Run Away", written by trombonist James Pankow, was a great song too, complete with a wicked solo from Dacus that now reminds me slightly of Toto's Steve Lukather or Journey's Neal Schon, as he plays throughout and including the fade. But since radio didn't take to "Must Have Been Crazy", "Run Away" didn't have a chance.
As for "Street Player", fans praise this song for its use as a primary sample in The Bucketheads' "The Bomb! (These Sounds Fall Into My Mind)". Released 15 years after the release of Chicago 13, The Bucketheads knew that the song and the album it came from were one of the band's biggest failures, but the song was funky in its own right and managed to turn it around and bring it its rightful majestic power. "Street Player" was co-written by drummer Daniel Seraphine, detailing his life as a rough kid in Chicago who almost lived the life of a punk, had he not had music to turn his life around. Seraphine's primary voice before the release of the song was his drums, playing amazingly in songs like "25 or 5 To 4″, "What's This World Coming To" and of course their cover of the Spencer Davis Group's "I'm A Man", but this shined the spotlight on the drummer that most people tended to ignore, or at least not grab the light that Cetera, Lamm, Kath, Pankow, or the rest of the horn section had claimed over the years. The song also gave the spotlight for a solo to jazz trumpeter Maynard Ferguson, identified by some of the man's high pitched horn squeals to let everyone know he was in the studio. As Cetera sang "I'm a street player…and I'll play you a song", the band continued to play their disco groove, which got slightly Brazilian in feel, leading to two horn breaks in the second half. This then leads to another powerful guitar moment for Dacus, all before Cetera sings "street player, what you do, gotta make you groove" and the rest of the band are pumped in ecstasy, figuratively and literally. Ferguson comes back briefly before they all fade the song, running close to nine minutes. To be honest, it remains one of Chicago's brightest moments and yet the band suffered in the same way The Rolling Stones did with "Miss You" and Kiss did with "I Was Made For Loving You", in that once they were identified with something disco, they were dead. It would've been true had they not continued once the 1980's started, but the bad luck streak told in the promotional film clips for Chicago 13 were essentially a bit of wishful thinking that, for a few years, they thought was a bit too close to home. Fortunately, Chicago were not ready for home base, at least not yet. Years later, when Chicago kicked Seraphine, one of the band's founding members, out of the band, he had the last laugh when the "Street Player" sample helped him out significantly in the publishing department. Considering how many Chicago songs became hits, "Street Player" is the one that people know as a sample, even if they might not realize it is a Chicago song, primarily because of its no hit status.
The rest of Chicago 13 had some great material, and with wonderful production from Phil Ramone, who also worked on Hot Streets with the band, the band couldn't do any harm to their career. Chicago were worthy in 1978 and with "Alive Again" and "No Tell Lover", they were alive and they returned. Songs like "Mama Take" (Cetera) and "Paradise Alley" (Lamm) showed that the group's pop and jazz ways were as powerful as ever. Even saxophonists Walter Parazaider and Lee Loughnane even had a joint composition on the album with "Window Dreamin'", so it seemed the group were spirited and ready to end the 1970's on a high note.
HBO did run a Chicago concert special in support of Chicago 13 and it was the perfect way for listeners to hear the classics from the group, along with a string of songs from the new album. One of the performances was another song written by Seraphine and David Wolinski, who also co-wrote "Street Player". "Aloha Mama" hit me because here I am as a kid in Honolulu hearing one of my favorite bands sing one of my words. The song was built on a very nice jazzy groove, with a rhythm that is very funky, what would be called the Purdie Shuffle., in honor of Bernard "Pretty" Purdie. You may recognize the drum rhythm from Steely Dan's "Home At Last" or partly used in Toto's "Rosanna". The band were not only in jazz mode, but vocalist Cetera also put himself in jazz costume as well, crediting himself in the song as P.C. Moblee. The harmonies were perfect, the feel of the song was great, it had the right to be a hit had it been released as a single but that was not to be.
Even longtime Chicago percussionist Laudir de Oliveira had his own song on the album, when he wrote "Life Is What It Is" with Marcos Valle. These days, we would call this type of laid back groove "yacht rock", complete with added percussion from legendary musician Airto Moreira. The song is smooth, funky, exotic, and perfect to hear in any occasion. You could pop this song in a mix of songs by The Doobie Brothers, Pablo Cruise, and Kenny Loggins and no one would have said a thing. Cetera takes the lead with Dacus handling a few background harmonies and again, this song could have gained some AOL airplay had it been pushed in the right way.
Sadly, Chicago 13 ended up being bad luck for the group. Music was great, singing was great, songwriting was up to par, and people were fed up with Chicago's magical power. They were the kings of pop radio of the mid to late 70's, they had enough. When the group followed it up with Chicago XIV, which brought the group to legendary producer Tom Dowd, it faired worse and they eventually left Columbia Records and moved to a new label. This would eventually lead to a new hit era for Chicago in the decade, and a style of music that didn't please the earlier fans. It didn't matter. Pop fans loved the new material and were pleased by the outcome. Chicago stayed on the charts, they sold millions of records, and that was that, even as they too would also bring in new vocalists (keyboardists Jason Scheff and Bill Champlin, the latter a founding member of Sons Of Champlin). Cetera eventually left, and Chicago moved on. However, the group became unfashionable in the 90's and sales for new music started to drop a bit. Looking back, Chicago 13 was not a massive failure by any means, for it allowed the group to have ten more years of pop chart success, which meant hits. Sure, Chicago fans changed during this time but the album is feared because of that disco beast known as "Street Player". They looked at the shining light from the 13th floor on the illustrated building with the Chicago logo on the cover and said "I'm not going there. Leave me out of that building now." Guaranteed, those who discovered the album and found a liking to it all wanted to be on that building, realizing that if you don't believe in superstitions, you can go further in life. The music on Chicago 13 definitely, in the words of "Street Player", made you move and made you groove. On vinyl, it's fairly easy to find at thrift stores because those who bought it have tossed it out, and covers with cut-out marks are plentiful but if you must, don't ignore it. Play it and hear it from a band who did their best to survive in the game and while the public discarded it, they also did so without listening. It's your time to listen.


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Grace Egger
01/06/2015 Women's Tennis' Doubles Duo Earns ITA Atlantic Region RankingEgger and Radosavljevic Enter 2015 as No. 10 Tandem 10/20/2014 GW Women's Tennis' Egger, Radosavljevic End Run at RegionalsDoubles Tandem Edged in Tiebreaker in ITA Atlantic Regional Quarterfinal Round 10/19/2014 Egger, Radosavljevic Advance for GW Women's Tennis at RegionalsDoubles Duo Moves to Quarterfinal Round of Atlantic Regional Championships 10/18/2014 GW Women's Tennis Moves Through ITA Atlantic Regional ChampionshipsDoubles Teams Advances in Main Draw 10/18/2014 Trio of GW Women's Tennis Players Advance at RegionalsRadosavljevic & Robins Advance in Singles, Radosavljevic & Egger Move On in Doubles 03/24/2014 GW Women's Tennis vs. TowsonGW Women's Tennis vs. Towson (3.11.2014) Photo by: Mitchell Layton
2013-14: Produced an overall singles record of 10-10 during first season with Colonials...Went 5-7 in spring action, competing at the Nos. 3, 4, 5 and 6 spots...Recorded 3-3 mark against A-10 competition...Went 14-6 overall in doubles...Teamed up with sophomore Lana Robins for a 6-3 dual-match doubles record, including 5-1 in the second flight...Went 3-1 against A-10 competition...Wrapped final 10 doubles matches with 6-4 record...Named Atlantic 10 Rookie Performer of the Week (March 4)...Member of GW Athletics Academic Dean's List. High School: Ranked among top-100 recruits in nation for class of 2013...Ranked No. 1 in Washington State and in Pacific Northwest for class of 2013...Named to Mountlake Terrace honor roll all four years. Personal: Born Grace Egger on Oct. 21, 1994 in Issaquah, WA...Daughter of Nadine and Phillip Egger...Has two older brothers, Adrian and Emmett, one older sister, Rachel, and one younger brother, Hunter...Brother Emmett plays tennis for Washington University...Intends to major in business administration.

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Rodarte's perfect mix for SS15
I can't normally abide hanky hems, but I'm making an exception for these divine mermaid silhouettes at Rodarte. Also… those bonkers boots!
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Editorial: Fire district violated public trust
Saturday, April 14, 2012
Editorial board members:
• Al Cashion
— Community representative
• Alisa Corey
— Community representative
• Bryce Jacobson
— Newspaper representative
• Bridget Manley
— Newspaper representative
• Jerry Martin
— Newspaper representative
• Dave Pike
— Community representative
Our View
Whether Craig needs a new firefighter training facility is debatable. It's clear, though, the Craig Rural Fire Protection District's proposal for a facility flies in the face of the clear message Moffat County voters sent in past elections.
Moffat County voters sent a clear message to the Craig Rural Fire Protection District in 2002.
When local residents went to vote that year on a proposed mill levy increase for the district, which would have paid for a fire training facility, they shot it down, 849 to 270.
The answer to whether Craig needed a new training facility was a resounding "no."
Now, fire district officials have resurrected the proposal, only this time they're sidestepping voters altogether.
The fire district intends to build its training facility, using money from a mill levy increase voters approved in 2006.
Voters OK'd that funding boost because they believed the training facility proposal was off the table.
In fact, Chris Nichols, then Craig Fire/Rescue chief and current fire district board secretary/treasurer, told attendees at a forum in 2006 that the mill levy increase would not include a training center, the Craig Daily Press reported in an article published October 23, 2006.
The fire district board shouldn't be surprised residents aren't lining up to back this project. It's a direct affront to voters' wishes, and it smacks of deceit.
Don't get the wrong message — the editorial board is not attacking the firefighters who put their lives on the line to protect lives and property. As demonstrated by devastating fires earlier this year in Craig, Craig/Fire Rescue does a superb job when it matters most.
Rather, the editorial board questions the intentions of the fire district board. Was it the board's design all along just to give voters lip service and build a training facility whether the public approved it or not?
The editorial board is split on whether Craig needs this kind of facility in the first place.
Some believe it's not a necessity, but it's certainly better than what firefighters have now.
Others argue Craig/Fire Rescue does just fine without a training tower and live fire simulator.
That argument is beside the point, though. The real issue here is a matter of violated public trust.
Fire district board members shouldn't have preemptively decided to use taxpayer dollars for a project voters expressly voted against.
Instead, they should have put it on the ballot. They should have made their case to the community then let the voters have the final say.
The editorial board doesn't expect the fire district to seek voter approval for every new piece of equipment it purchases, but past history makes the training facility a special case, and besides, a training facility isn't just a new piece of equipment.
When residents voted down the project, the fire district had a responsibility and an obligation to respect the public's wishes, not circumvent them.
Fire district board members would do well to think about the consequences their run around game will have down the road, when they again need public help.
Violate the public's trust now, as it appears they're going to do regardless of the majority's opinion, and risk paying the cost later.
Voters in small communities have long memories, and they'd be more than justified rejecting future proposals given the district's deceit.
Click here to have the print version of the Craig Daily Press delivered to your home.
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Sam Relaford 2 years, 9 months ago
I completely agree with the editorial board! I wish someone could file a suit to make them uphold the vote we had in 2002. Although it sound like they had already made up their mind what they were going to do wether they lost the vote or not. Obviously I am no Lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there is some kind of law or rule about lying to the public just to get a vote. Doesn't it make the whole ballot invalid? So I say if they build it then let them. We as a community can vote to cut their budget and make it so tight they wont be able to use that money pit.Then remove every member of the fire district board from office because we obviously cant trust them anymore! We need honest, trustworthy people in these positions. People who respect what the people want and need!
Jon Pfeifer 2 years, 9 months ago
Well said editorial board. I agree completely that this has been the worst kind of political deceit.
cforevereyez 2 years, 9 months ago
First the German fire truck (wink, wink, wink).
Now the fire tower. I'm surprised the chief hasn't arranged a trip to Costa Rica to inspect the cement that will be needed to erect this monument to humanity.
Lies, deceit? You said it editorial board - very well.
Cole White 2 years, 9 months ago
The Editorial Board's argument is quite possibly the dumbest I have yet to hear them make in all the years I have read them. Basically what they are saying is that NOTHING changes. Where was the editorial board when the The Memorial Hospital asked for money from the voters after they promissed they wouldn't ask for a tax levy if the people of Moffat County raised a million dollars in donations? Guess what? Things change! The million dollars raised wasn't quite enough so they went after more money. Things change and just because a condition held true ten years ago doesn't mean that it will in the future. Again, GET OVER IT!
The money the fire district has in reserves is up to the District Board and the other officials in the fire district to do with as best they see fit. Not the CDP Editorial Board. This is how Special Districts work all over the state of colorado. If you start giving the average shmuck say in how a district is ran from day to day you are going to have problems coming out of your ears.
The editorial board has to respect the public wishes? Really Editorial Board? And what are the "publics" wishes? Just because they voted down a mill levy a decade ago for a tower doesn't mean anything. Currently we don't have a mill levy for a training tower, so I guess they did respect the wishes and didn't raise new taxes for a tower specifically but they did get voter approval, THIS VOTER'S approval to raise a mill levy for operations and other puposes. Fortunate for them they don't need you permission to run their fire district. If our fire department produced as poor a quality product as the Daily Press we would be in big trouble. Fortunately for us we have some great people running this program that know a thing or two about running a fire district. You would do well in investing a little more time in learning to not report fluff stories and human interest garbage and actually report the news.
FACT: Moffaty County does not do a very good job investing in its infrastructure. FACT: Our voters are so concerned with not adding an extra $10 a year to their taxes that we have some of the worst county and municipal buildings in the state. FACT: With the exception of the recent school, hospital, and fire monies raised we have done nothing to better our community outside of a few more acres of grass in our parks department. FACT: The Daily Mess gets most of their facts wrong. FACT: this is money that the Fire District has in their accounts and isn't going to set you or anyone else back a single dime in the future.
I think anyone investing in this community needs to be applauded and anyone who doesn't want to invest in this community needs to be run out of town. Its time to stop doing the bare minimum!!!
saunders 2 years, 9 months ago
It was voted on 10 years ago for a huge training center not just a live fire building and tower. It was passed with wording to allow this in 2006. If they wanted to be deceitful why wait an additional 6 years after getting the increase to build it? Oh I know because it took 6 years to save for it and still maintain the plan they presented in 2006. Editorial board you are really reaching to say this is beyond the scope of the fire board and I would say maybe the newspapers ethics are in question here. Bryce we all know this is the papers personal platform. Three token communities members who are hand picked by you and your staff, yourself and two of your employees. I can only imagine how these meetings go. Stop using your Daily Rag to push your agendas I am not interested in the world according to you or your staff.
David Moore 2 years, 9 months ago
"Also if you want to see the public wishes just read all,the negative posts concerning this tower. You will see that most of them are against it. That is public opinion, just so you get it." Oh please, what, all 12 of you on 5 different threads? Out of 10,000 people in this area you are the "public's opinion"? I think not. There are more people in Craig, grateful people that we have such a well trained fire department, who support our fire district than oppose it. My assumption is they just choose not to waste their time here arguing with clueless people about subjects they have no knowledge about.
Well said Highway1340 and saunders.
I work in the department that would be primarily affected if the air handling system is to shut down because of the smoke, it is a pretty remote chance that it would ever happen. Want to complain about a live fire training facility? How about I throw in the ring all those who live in Ridgeview whose smoke from their fireplaces we smell and deal with on a daily basis in the wintertime. How about the diesel trucks parked in the loading dock area that spew their fumes directly into the system, mmmm, I love the smell of diesel in the morning. The towers position on the hill is in a direction the wind rarely blows, from the south. The wind on that hill blows directly from the west, trust me after two years up there I know, and it carries whatever is going on in Ridgeview right into the system. Those living to the west of this facility will not be affected at all. I feel the firefighters are intelligent enough not to burn anything IF the wind is blowing the wrong way, if the wind shifts for some reason the materials burned will not be any worse than what is already flowing through the system right now. Besides, like I said before, its not primarily for training on how to put out a fire, they know how to do that already. It is mostly going to be used for other modalities withing their training programs like multi-level rescue, rappelling, physical training when they have to carry equipment up flights of stairs to rescue people and the like. Personally, I would like to see a combo setup, new station, training tower and whatever else they need to help them become better at their jobs, that hill needs to be developed and having professional components (hospital, college, fire department) is not a bad way to do it. The ONLY reason any of these people are whining is because of a personal vendetta against either the department or someone who serves within it. Seeing how it will be those very people to pull your sorry butt out of your house afire, that's a pretty lame reason in my opinion.
littlesister 2 years, 9 months ago
I find it interesting that you would even write this article. I believe the local newspaper has let the readers down. Why have you not been attending any of the Fire Board meetings and getting information on what they are doing? Mr. Jacobson, your staff attends other board meetings, City Council, County Commissioners, Memorial Hospital and the School Board. Is it because the Fire Board meeting is at night and your budget does not allow you to pay a reporter to attend and get accurate, unbiased information? I also find it interesting that you start slinging mud after Fire Board Member Chris Nichols is no longer on the Editorial Board. Maybe, just maybe, they have been saving money for these past years to be able to build this training facility. A business that wants to succeed puts money away for future projects, the County, City, School's and Hospital all do it. I'm even betting that you try saving money for items you want to purchase. It's kind of sad that all the Editorial Board Members would sign their names to that article without checking for themselves the facts about what is going on.
The Editorial Board has really grumbled about a lot of things in this community lately, City, Schools, now the Fire Department, whose next? Maybe you should get out in the community and be proactive instead of reactive.
Seems the only "trust" that has been violated is the "trust" of the local newspaper to report accurate articles and the editorial board to express informed opinions.
Insider1313 2 years, 9 months ago
Writing FACT doesn't make it a true fact. I have read the books also. Everyone is putting a lot of good ideas out. the "FACT" is the fire department IS well trained. The main funaction of the fire department is to save lives, property and serve the comunity.The better option would be a place to put vehicles and equipment that is filling up the existing staion. They have land behind Kmart, and now this land. This would get equipment and firefighters to us faster, right? Plus it would help our insurance ratings. This would better serve the people. The Fire Board and the officers are acting like a kid that was told "NO", I asked mom and she said no, now I ask dad maybe he will say yes. No disrespect to the men and women (firefighters) that help out every day, but don't hide behind that "FACT". This is a community and this is not a good idea in my opinion. Don't throw the bravery firefighters at people that are trying to make a good point. This is a little deceitful, the way the fire board is going about this. I would like to vote on this, I would like the option to use my american right to help my community.
David Moore 2 years, 9 months ago
Well, we already voted on giving them money for improvements, unless it says somewhere in the legal paperwork "no training facility" then all the whining is pointless. You're wanting to vote on money that is already theirs to use as they see fit. That's like voting on say...a new hospital but then turning around and wanting to vote on what equipment they can buy and how they are supposed to spend their money...again, their money. And here for so many years I thought I was the control freak. Ranger, your "poll" of March 18th, "Do you support the Craig Rural Fire Protection District's plan to build a live fire simulator for training near The Memorial Hospital and Colorado Northwestern Community College in Craig?" had a total of 390 voters of which 244 were against it. That is 2.5% of the population of this area. Even with adding all of the 300 people you work with to that number plus the 23 you claim from the forum and the print, you still are just over 5%. Keep digging, you need another 46%.
David Moore 2 years, 9 months ago
OK, let me rephrase that last half of my previous post. I don't know how many registered voters there are in the Moffat county area, I was basing that logic on 10,000 people. Obviously children and teenagers are not going to be voting. Assuming there are 4 to 5,000 registered voters however, it's still only a small percentage. My bad. I am still for it and see nothing wrong with it at all. At least I can realize it's not my money anymore and they can do with it as they please to better the training of the people that will save my life in the greatest time of need.
xrsareus 2 years, 9 months ago
Dave, One more correction for you. I think the only voters that are within the fire district are able to vote since they are the only one's who are taxed for the fire service. I have no clue as to those numbers.
Ranger520 This is what I think..... We the taxpayers of Moffat County should vote on wether or not Shadow Mt. gets water and sewer upgrades and new sidewalks and streets this November. Since I don't live there I can care less if you have water, sewer or paved streets. Now also if you live in the city, a person is paying taxes to the city and the county for all the repairs to your little neighborhood. Now I'm going to quote you "Then why don't you put it on the general ballot and see. If it passes, it passes, and if it doesn't, perhaps then some of the people that have been entrusted with our money will pay more attention to what is written in pages like this."
What do you think should we put it to a vote in November??
xrsareus 2 years, 9 months ago
So Ranger520.... What I take from your last post is that It is stupid to put every decision made by our elected officials to a vote in November. And I quote Ranger520 again...... "Then why don't you put it on the general ballot and see. If it passes, it passes, and if it doesn't, perhaps then some of the people that have been entrusted with our money will pay more attention to what is written in pages like this." Or did you not say that???? I'm going to use one more of your quotes from your last post...."I have never read so much stupidity come from so few people in my life." I had not read so much stupidity either (until I started reading your posts) Have a nice day!!!!
jamieb5691 2 years, 9 months ago
Did anybody think about where they are building this? Our winds come from the west or nw or sw. Meaning all this smoke will either go to the hospital or directly into town, covering the valley. AS far as saying they won't burn if the wind is heading towards the hospital, that's the stupidest comment I have ever heard. That's like saying you can control God! Winds shift oh bright ones. Oh and anybody who has asthma or any other breathing problems in the whole town of Craig are entitled to what type of compensation when they have to hit the ER because they can't breathe. You guys are going to get sued everytime you light a training fire. If you want a training facility that's fine but go to the opposite side of Wymans and build it. Not on the west end where the whole town will be at risk. Here's a better idea, why not use the sandrocks to learn repelling and use condemed houses around Craig for practices. Use the money for better equipment or more equipment such as NBC PPE for the public. Build or don't build I don't care but you will be sued on the first ER trip!!
xrsareus 2 years, 9 months ago
Not even close to being ticked. Always have liked a friendly discussion. I try to see the other's point of view, to see if my thoughts are wrong or right. Have been proved wrong many times in my young life. I just can't seem to understand your point of view on not trusting the decisions of our elected officials and wanting to go to a public vote on every item at every November election. So I'll ask again....Do you, Ranger520, think we should put it to a vote in November the Shadow Mountain upgrades? Or do you trust the decisions made by our elected officials? It is such a simple couple of questions. I'm a betting person and I'm betting I know how you are going to answer these two questions. I'll write down how I think you will respond and show you after you answer. OK?
jamieb5691 2 years, 9 months ago
Another thing we could buy is "professional firefighters" who already have this training under their belt. I'll i'm saying is there are many other things you could use this money on besides a training facility that already exists less than twenty miles away. In such an economic slump and Craig wants to spend a million dollars on a training facility? Hell donate the money to single moms who need it. Greed killed the cat and the lawsuits will kill our fire department.
David Moore 2 years, 9 months ago
Thanks for the compliment ranger, typical response from you when someone disagrees with what you say. Sure, I am a nutcase, a lunatic, a control freak, but I am also someone who lives by the rule of common sense, at least I am man enough to admit it. And if you think you tick me off, wrong again. I actually feel sorry for you, living such a pathetic life that you feel the need to resort to namecalling to prove your point. Then again, like I said, typical behavior from you, we have all seen it many times before. My opinion is out, I have better things to do, I will just wait for the results. Pretty sure what those result will be though.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
As a 20 year retired Firefighter for the Craig Rural Fire Protection District, I am somewhat insulted by the editorial boards uneducated stance on the proposed training center. You make a statement that this is not about the firefighters themselves. But by your comments you are saying they do not deserve a place to effectively train as a team and to put their lives on the line to protect all of us without the best training available. This training center is just as important as any other piece of equipment provided to our firefighters. When I became a rookie in 1986 there was no real structured training classes. We learned from our mistakes and from what senior firefighters tried to teach us. A couple years later we as a younger group of firefighters realized how important training was for the district we protected and more importantly our own safety. We set out to become Firefighter 1 certified. Firefighter certifications are a nationally known and excepted firefighter training curriculum where you learn all aspects of safe, effective firefighting. As with any training curriculum, this training also has changed through the years as changes in building design, furnishing and other hazards have been built into today's structures. Haz-mat and live fire certification is now part of the Firefighter 1 certification. Firefighting experts were realizing too many firefighters were not prepared to enter a burning building and were not recognizing the phases of fire and the dangers involved with extinguishment. This building is not just a live fire training building. It is not just a fire tower training building. What it is, is a building where all facets of firefighter training can be achieved. I hope none of you naysayer's think that our firefighters returning home safe to their families is not the number one priority. To have the best chance at that goal they all need the best training available. When we were rookies, we learned about heat from a burning pile of pallets. We went into a room to find a fire by obscuring our SCBA mask with wax paper and entering a room trying to find a traffic cone that simulated the fire. Believe me my first entry into a burning building was nothing like what that training was like. Heat forced your face to the floor, you could not see your hand in front of your face and your knees where stuck to the melting carpet. Our firefighters deserve better training than that.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
The Firefighter 1 curriculum takes almost a year to complete. Rookie firefighters are taught all the necessary aspects of being a firefighter. Firefighter safety, SCBA, Search and Rescue, fire streams, ladders, ventilation, rope's and knots, and fire behavior to name a few subjects. This building can be used for all of this training and more. The current fire station is not a proper training facility. Putting ladders against the building tears up the sides, the roof is not designed to be walked on unnecessarily. You can only crawl under so many fire trucks to simulate SCBA, search & rescue, hose advancement and fire streams. I know a little about quality training as I had the privilege of being in charge of training for around 5 years. I know how difficult it is to find an abandon structure to train in and eventually burn. I know how the NFPA regulations have changed in regards to live fire training and burning abandon buildings. Asbestos abatement. The dangers to firefighters in abandoned buildings set on fire. The danger of burning a structure next to other residents. Live fire certifications became a part of Firefighter 1 requirements when I was in charge of training. We had to travel to Frisco or Rifle for the rookies to be tested. Hayden's building was just being built if I remember right. Besides rookie training there is also continuing training that must be completed by each firefighter which includes more live fire training to recertify at their firefighter level. It, in my opinion, if not feasible to train as a effective department traveling to Hayden and using their building. Most people have not a clue to the amount of training hours our firefighters achieve in a year.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
I am in full support to the Fire Boards decisions in regards to this training center. I made my decision by being informed and asking questions. Not being an uniformed arm chair quarterback. Do I think they have done the best job at educating the people? No. Is that their job or is it ours as taxpayers? But they have done what they thought was right. I attend almost every Fire Board meeting and sadly I'm the only citizen there. The last time I can remember anyone else at a meeting was last July. The last meeting, March 2012, was the first time I can remember a Daily Press reporter there in over a year and he was there for only half the meeting. Last April a group of people showed up thinking they knew all they needed to know about the budget and the operation of the Fire Board and the Fire Department. How can any of you form an accurate opinion on how the board has come to their decisions by attending one meeting? I think the Fire Board has done an excellent job with my money. They have obtained grants when available. Developed a working budget, stay within that budget and planned for the future. What more can you ask of them? I encourage everyone to get involved with your fire department. Attend more than one meeting and be informed before you make your decisions. I hope the media will become involved as they are with every other government agency and present an unbiased report of the functions of the Fire District.
Sincerely Doug Slaight
George Robertson 2 years, 9 months ago
DougS, Thank you Very much! Not only for your incredibly informative post, but for also for those years where you risked YOUR life so that others would be safe!
Insider1313 2 years, 9 months ago
Again Firefighter Bravery not the issue here. You can get every person that has ever done the job (which is risking your life, I know I am one, that is what you sign on for) and say that they WANT this tower, but what does the community NEED. You can't treat the people you want to protect like this, you have to give out all the information. These posts are just an example of what a few people feel, good and bad. There are more bad than good, this should be a clue that maybe there might be a problem. I am not saying ranger520 speaks for the entire community, but neither does DougS. There is too many good points that need to be addressed before the people will back this fully. I hope people are at the meeting tonight, and at the next board meeting. If the boards won't listen get rid of them, and if those people won't listen get rid of them to. Time for the people to decide. If Craig wants this tower lets say YES, but if we don't lets Stop it by saying HELL NO.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
Insider1313 You had better sit down, I agree with some of what you say. I have not a clue if you now serve as a firefighter for CRFPD or are a career firefighter or even retired. I have no idea how you received your training and to what extent. You are right, this issue has nothing to do with firefighter bravery. As the joke goes, Firefighters must not be all there mentally, because as everyone else is running out of a burning building, they are going in. This issue has to do with FIREFIGHER SAFTEY. What this building will do is give our firefighters a place to properly train as a team. Now I'm going to talk to you in firefighter terms since you say you are one. To create effective plans and to work together as engine company's and truck company's, firefighters need to train as a department. To train over and over until a plan of fire attack works. What is the proper time to apply positive pressure ventilation during a fire suppression effort? Is PPV the best choice or is cutting a hole in the roof better? Ladder placement for ventilation or rescue from multiple story building. Practicing over and over. Coordinating the entry into a burning building with the proper ventilation. Firefighters being able to recognize by different smoke conditions, if there is potential for flashover or backdraft . Applying the proper firestream pattern and the proper amount of water as to not upset the thermal balance. Insider1313 you should know the consequences of upsetting that balance and how many firefighters are burn from it. Practicing search and rescue techniques along with fire suppression efforts and God forbid sending in a RIT team to rescue a downed firefighter. Everything I described is training for firefighter safety and effective fire suppression, working as a team. What is nice is this building can be used over and over again. Drug labs are a big concern, a Haz-mat situation, decontamination of the firefighters involved. I could go on and on about what the value in training this building will be. Another point I agree with you on is.. I don't think the Fire Board has done enough to educate the taxpayers about why this building is needed and the whole process in getting to where they are today. And totally with your statement "There is too many good points that need to be addressed before the people will back this fully". I do think we will see more education in the future. As to getting rid of the Board members if they don't listen. In 20 years I have never seen people waiting at the door wanting to be a Board member. You know what I think about the people against. They have formed their opinions by rumors and uneducated opinions. I have never seen one of the people sitting on the editorial board at a fire board meeting and they have the nerve to write an article based on what information they received from who knows where. Insider1313 call me sometime, we can talk, I'm in the phone book. Are you? Doug Slaight
STTAK 2 years, 9 months ago
ranger520- Once a year use huh? Shows how much you know about the situation!
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
The last year I was in charge of training, 2004. 22 firefighters, 1515 hrs of training. I still have some of my records. I don't think these numbers took into account rookie or Haz-Mat training. Been to long for me to remember. Again your uneducated guess of once a year is way off.
STTAK 2 years, 9 months ago
THANK YOU CRFPD for all of your dedication and hard work, I know I appreciate each and everyone of your sacrifices for mine and my families protection, I feel safe going to bed at night knowing our firefighters/board want our community to continue to be a safer place with more physical training for our firefighters! .
George Robertson 2 years, 9 months ago
"I have never seen one of the people sitting on the editorial board at a fire board meeting and they have the nerve to write an article based on what information they received from who knows where." DougS, that's normal protocol for this bully pulpit they disguise by calling it an "Editorial Board" 50% of which is EMPLOYED by the CDP. For any other "letter to the editor", the CDP has discretionary power to decide whether or not to publish. To bad the same scrutiny isn't applied to the garbage they come up with.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
Disclaimer: My word's and opinions are just that, mine, from my experiences as a firefighter and by attending Fire Board meeting and asking questions.
Yesterday Josh Roberts call me about my Letter to the Editor. He assured me it would be printed in two parts on Wed. and Fri. just as I wrote it. Thank you Josh.
I also received a phone call from Bryce Jacobson in the pm. He informed me two Fire Board members had attended the Editorial Board meeting before they had come to their conclusion on what to write. This was not mentioned in the Editorial Boards article. My words about the Editorial Board "might" have been a little harsh. I had based my opinion on my attendance at the Fire Board meetings and never seeing any of the Editorial Board members there. Their contention is still the Fire Board "Violated public trust" from statements said in 2006. Well, things change in 6 years folks.... In my opinion the Fire Board had no idea they would receive grants to help purchase fire equipment within the six years since those statements were made and that there would be more money in their funds. Also the two Fire Board members could not convey every discussion in the last six years on what would be the best way to use the funds in one meeting with the Editorial Board. I still stand by my support in the Fire Boards quest to build this building and still contend this building is as important as any other piece of firefighting equipment. I'm sure firefighter training standards have changed in the last six years demanding more and more training to achieve and keep firefighter certifications. Another subject that has come up in this forum discussion is the Shadow Mt. project. Do you think in 2006, the city knew in 2012 they were going to be doing this project there? If they did in 2006 they would have been trying to budget more money for that future project. Like I said things change in six years...
Mr. Jacobson also reminded me that not all members of the Editorial Board are against this building. He gave my his stance on the issue. I asked him if his stance was "off the record" and he said " no this is on the record". I'm not going to tell you what his opinion is, you can ask him yourself.
Thanks Bryce for the phone call.
Insider1313 2 years, 9 months ago
DougS, I like your stance. I would love to talk to you, but if we discuss things in this forum other people can see the way two logical people can discuss a hot topic. As things stand it looks like a even sided battle, half (estimate) want this tower half (estimate) don't. I have a option for the fire board, maybe it might work. The original vote that was voted down before 2006 was a 2nd station right? I think the public has accepted that the fire department will build on this land, but another station 1st and then add the tower later. It gives the people protection, expands the department, helps the truck problems (too many trucks for the space they are in) and starts the project tword the tower. Ease the tax payers into this while still helping the department. Both sides win. If the board turned there focus right now, I estimate that most people would like this, or at least accept this. It saves some money, and shows that the fire board cares about every opinion(even though they don't need it RIGHT NOW). Some people will still complain, but that always happens. It is just an idea. And it will stop this public bantering, the letters to the paper and the businesses store front displays (Craig Fire Safety). I mean you don't see signs that say "1 billion served and by the way Craig editorial board is CLUELESS" Just a thought tell me what you think? You are in the position to tell the board what you think, I am not. I can't take the chance, but you can.
lonelyone 2 years, 9 months ago
I'm not totally against the training center, I just think it should be built somewhere else. I just can't think that it would be something pleasing to look at sitting in the same area as the nice looking hospital and the nice looking collage. But as I've said before, I don't think anyone wants it in "their" backyard.
Mr. Moore's comment about not worrying about smoke from the training center, but whatever happens in Ridgview comes right into the air system and so does the smell of diesel. Sorry about the diesel smell, but as at least 95% of Ridgeview was there long before the hospital was built, I'd say you have no grounds for complaint. Someone who designed your fancy building is the one you should be complaining about not the residents who came before you.
And to xrsareus, I can understand you'd not want to use your tax money to help with improvements in Shadow Mtn. However those people pay taxes to the City too in everything we buy. We are charged higher for our water base rate than those in the city altho that wasn't always the case. And when the city votes on something it affects everyone of us out here and the rest of the county even tho we have no say in the matter. I personally don't really care if we get new water lines, cuz I have a feeling if we do, we'll get charged even more......we'll end up paying for it somehow I'm sure.
I guess my point is, is that all you people can nit-pick this to death but as usual it's going to happen whether anyone likes it or not. I just wish it wasn't "in my backyard!"
saunders 2 years, 9 months ago
FYI.....a total of four people attended the planning and zoning meeting in opposition of proposed training center. You heard me correctly four and no one from the surrounding neighborhood, college or hospital. Actions speak louder than words.
j4mom7 2 years, 9 months ago
Not only is this issue about firefighter education, training, safety and preparedness...have any of you thought of how this will affect your homeowners insurance? The more training, education, preparation, equipment and staffing a fire department - any fire department - has, the lower their ISO rating will be, which translates into lower fire insurance premiums for property owners.
Times change, technology changes, and this community is growing and will continue to grow. The "Craig America" mentality of "we are fine like we are" is not always in the best interest of "Craig America".
I know two things: 1) My son is a firefighter and I want him to be as well-trained and well-equiped as possible because I want him to come home - in one piece - after he is done running INTO the building to protect YOU!
2) Anything that will help reduce the amount of money that goes out of my pocket is fine by me - especially if it helps keep me, my family, and my property a little safer.
There is a website that explains fire protection ratings -
www.isomitigation.com. Check it out.
j4mom7 2 years, 9 months ago
Another thought or two - This issue has EVERYTHING to do with firefighter safety. If they don't know what to do and how to do it, and have the equipment to do it with, then not only does the risk for loss of life and property increase, so does the risk for loss of the firefighter. That is unacceptable. In spite of what some think, by the time the firefighters get themselves and their gear stowed and ready to go, and then get back here from Hayden, the property they're coming back to save is a loss and maybe so are the people inside. If that's my property and me, I want them there NOW, not fifteen minutes later. If you've never seen how fast even a modern building can go up in flames, then maybe we all need to watch a training video and get an education. It's truly stunning how fast things burn. They have the money in hand and there is no caveat on how they spend it. If they choose to spend it on something that will better prepare them for protecting me...and you...then they have my support.
Taxpayer 2 years, 9 months ago
When was the last time the firefighters used the Hayden training facility? Did everyone attend at one time? Or did they schedule it so everyone got training but at different times? Thanks for any insight to my questions. Also, I don't perceive any of the questions being asked as anything negative to our firefighters.
xrsareus 2 years, 9 months ago
loneyone Been gone a couple days. I didn't express myself as intended. I was trying to make a comparison for ranger520 that every project can't go out to vote. I have many friends that live in Shadow Mt. I did sound like I didn't care about what happens there, trust me that is not the case. There are some really nice properties and some big garages I would die for. Also to make this more FD related..... I bet they like water lines that they know are dependable. With all the construction planned Shadow Mt. is going to be a mess for awhile.
truthhurts 2 years, 9 months ago
I keep hearing this tossed around....don't take this negatively about our firefighter or this isn't about them. Do any of you believe that these comments aren't taken as a direct slap in the face to anyone who volunteers there time in an effort to help the community regardless of personal reasons? I would like to toss a few figures around. 1.5 million for the next 20 years - estimated life of tower = $75,000 per year or the equivalent of 1 full time staffed firefighter. Without the volunteers you all say you respect yet are willing to deny every opportunity to be SAFE and well trained. What would the mill levy need to be to staff a full time department? Easily 1.5 million per year for a crew of 12-15 full time staff. Volunteerism is a dying quality in our community and without these people who provided a great service our mill levy would easily double. The only reason we have a levy so low is due to these men and women....but he lets see if we can't anger and alienate them....maybe they will get the last laugh.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
I glad you brought that subject up. I just called Steamboat Fire. I talked to the Chief. They have 25 career firefighters including the Chief. 5 part-time, 4 reserve. The pay scale is $36,600 to $49,200 for the career Firefighter/EMT. They work as A, B, C, shifts. 24 hr shifts. Around 7 firefighters on at a time. If you take even the low wage X 24 (not counting the chief) = $864,000.00 in just wages alone, per year. I also asked about training. Steamboat Firefighters are required to complete a live fire burn every year plus all the other requirements to keep their Firefighter certifications. I asked if they do this on their shift and another shift covers? He said no, they have to do this on their days off. Right now Craig is blessed to have volunteers but a time will come when people will not volunteer anymore. Volunteerism is dying all over the US.
STTAK 2 years, 9 months ago
insider1313- Just curious are you a current firefighter with Craig Fire Rescue?
ranger520- I do not understand why and how you can live your life in such negativity ALL THE TIME doesnt that wear you out?
I have a question to throw out there for all of you who are not in favor of this great future training tower, have you ever been told at YOUR jobs that you have TOO much training in your field? I do not care what job you work at you can always be trained to do your job better! In my opinion firefighters can never have too much training and with that comes a better training ground for these fine men and women who want to volunteer their precious time to save all you ungrateful people in a time of crisis. HAVE SOME RESPECT PEOPLE!
saunders 2 years, 9 months ago
ranger520 it took me about a minute to Google this:
Here's a summary of the items ISO considers when reviewing a community's training for firefighters.
Facilities and aids
Drill tower
Fire building (including smoke room)
Combustible-liquid pit
(In areas where federal, state, or local officials prohibit the use of combustible-liquid pits, credit may be available for a video depicting extinguishment of flammable-liquid fires. )
Library and training manuals
Slide or overhead projectors
Movie projector or VCR
Pump cutaway
Hydrant cutaway
Half-day (3-hour) drills, 8 per year
Half-day (3-hour) multiple-company drills, 4 per year
Night drills (3-hour), 2 per year
Note: ISO may credit a single-company drill under the first and last of these items; ISO may credit multiple-company drills under all three.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
Sanders you beat me to it. Ranger520, Here is a the web site that explains the whole ISO rateing system if you are really wanting to learn something today. http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/0000… ISO rating are very difficult to understand and not all insurance companies use the information to determine rates. I think State Farm has their own rating system. There you go Ranger520 I'm trying to help you all I can.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
Let's try that again, I don't think the first on worked.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
Ranger520 Let's see you have gone from only going to use once a year, to this is necessary every day. Do you understand what the ISO is now? Have you called Hayden to see if their facility is free and asked when the building is available? I really am interested in your plan to allow for all training and still have people here for fires. You do realize our firefighters have their full time jobs and work some work out of town? I'm am certain the current training officer is just waiting for you to present your plan. It would really take a load off of him or her.
truthhurts 2 years, 9 months ago
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Taxpayer 2 years, 9 months ago
Sometimes in Moffat County having a discussion is like having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. I still haven't gotten an answer to the last time our fire department trained in Hayden. After all the money spent on the hospital (totals 104Million after the mortgage and interest is paid in full) and our beautiful college, why would we want an ugly building there. Too sad.
STTAK 2 years, 9 months ago
You cannot have a successful team if some of your players are at practice and some are not, CORRECT?
saunders 2 years, 9 months ago
Well then it must be true! Thanks ranger520 I am sure those who are tasked with scheduling will be so relieved. Maybe they could go to Hayden once a month to train as a group and just put a notice in our fine paper. Craig Fire will be training tonight from 6-10 pm in Hayden. Please do not have a heart attack, wreck your vehicle or let your house catch fire during this time. Thanks.
Ray Cartwright 2 years, 9 months ago
(Ranger520 says)"I work at a job site that employs about 300 people. So far I have heard no one make a comment in favor of this tower idiocy, but have heard many make comments against it." You haven't heard any comments against it because you wouldn't listen and would have made them feel like they are the lowest of human beings because they don't agree with your opinionated attitude. Your opinions are just that and not everyone has to agree with them. So get over yourself, you are not as important as you seem to think that you are. Do you need to sign up for anger management courses again Al.
Taxpayer 2 years, 9 months ago
Dougs -- please answer here so everyone can see the answers. We have other Fire Departments reading these comments and I know others would appreciate the response to my questions. Thanks.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
Taxpayer, I retired in 2005. I have not a clue when they used Hayden's building or how often. How do you know other Fire Departments are reading this? Here is what I would do....... You call 824-5914. You get the answer You want and You post the answer. I hope You all ready know my position on this issue. Besides my fingers are getting tired of typing !!!!!! See you at the meeting tonight??????
Taxpayer 2 years, 9 months ago
Dougs --- CDP's cartoon is already across the internet - I saw the sign which asks all of us to be informed. You would think someone from our Fire Department would be happy to answer the questions being asked here. This is a good example of why each mill levy should have a sunrise and sunset so we don't have these types of situations where the will of the people is being ignored.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
Insider1313, I'm sorry you live in fear for your job as a firefighter. I never had that fear when I served. If you where on the Fire Department when I was, you know there were some very "lively" discussions and different opinions. Everyone knew what my thoughts were and how I got to them. I hoped that that interaction brought me more respect as I respected their views. But......With that being said, you know as much as I do that firefighting is about trust. Your life and your brother and sisters life may depend on each other. That trust is developed by honesty and sharing your limitations of what you are comfortable doing as a firefighter and your views. I never was comfortable doing confined space. I loved to rappel, but that rope seemed way too small to hold my fat butt so I was always uncomfortable. So what I'm trying to say you can't express your views in secret and keep that trust.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
Taxpayer, Does someone have to wipe your butt for you in the morning? Ask yourself, I assume you do know what a telephone is. again 824-5914, it is really simple. By the way.... I liked the cartoon...and if it is about me, I think I should get some kind of royalty or at least Bryce should take me to lunch...
CraigFireBoard 2 years, 9 months ago
Taxpayer, Sorry we did not realize you had a question or just another comment. Hopefully this will answer your question. The District has provided 3 Live Fire Trainings over the past three years where the firefighters, that could travel, to a burn center at different places throughout the state attended. In addition, each Probationary Class of Firefighters attends a mandatory state certification burn during the end of their training at the Colorado Firefighter Academy in Southern Colorado. Changes cities each year. We're glad you asked this question because the response shows a flaw in our current training program offered for our firefighters. The board recognizes that we do not provide adequate live fire training. Many times we have discussed the logistical problems of leaving the district for this type of training. Agree or not, we need come up with a solution that works for our people because looking at the numbers, what we're doing it is not enough or adequate for the safety of our firefighters. Yes having a Live Fire Simulator/Tower in our back yard will get used 3 to 4 times every month. Hope this gives you the information you asked for.
Taxpayer 2 years, 9 months ago
Craig Fire Board --- thank you so much for the response. The lingering questions is how often the Hayden training tower has been used in the past years? Is volunteer fire training somewhat universal in Colorado? Thanks again for answering the question. I am trying to be informed.
Taxpayer 2 years, 9 months ago
DougS --
Let's not confuse the issue with facts. Getting clarification keeps all of us informed of what needs to be done.
DougS 2 years, 9 months ago
Taxpayer, I tried to explain to you I retired in 2005 and told you I did not have a clue to your answer. I suggested you contact the fire station for your answer and then you could post it for everyone to see. What was so hard about that to understand? I tried to help you get the answers you wanted by giving you a phone number. Sorry I got into your personal life.
COWORKER 2 years, 9 months ago
Doug , Fireboard, I have read your posts and understand what you are saying.. As for some of you others, just proves YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID !
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text:
Try heading over to Tom Sawyer Island. There are several covered areas near the water for relaxing in a rocking chair, watching Big Thunder Mountain, playing checkers etc.
Try heading over to Tom Sawyer Island. There are several covered areas near the water for relaxing in a rocking chair, watching Big Thunder Mountain, playing checkers etc.
Day 1 WDW Radio
Keep to the code
I like going over toward Tomorrowland, getting on the TTA when it's quiet, and just sitting there and relaxing!
OR, when the Haunted Mansion ride flips you backwards and you go down hill backwards. It's the best feeling after being on your feet all day!
The walkway between Toontown and Tomorrowland, very quiet.
When you wish upon a star.....
Adults are only kids grown up, anyway. WD
...That's the real trouble with the world. Too many people grow up. WD
"For those who get it, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation will do."
We always liked the walkway between Toontown and Tomorrowland; finding a bench in the shade and letting the kids nap in their strollers.
I also think Tom Sawyer Island is a great place to relax.
Any park bench under a tree with fresh popcorn and a cold coke.
You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension - a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas.
There is a small garden hidden away nearly in the base of Cinderella's Castle... I think it's called the "rose garden." Belle reads aloud from books here at posted times (which is awesome for little princesses who need a break from the hustle bustle) but when Belle's not there, it's very peaceful and beautiful.
This only applies to readers who are parents of infants, but my first thought when I read the title of the thread was the Baby Care Center. It's never crowded, there are little tables and toys for kids, and you can really freshen up. Tho we've outgrown it, I especially LOVED the breastfeeding room (I'm sure if you are female no one would care if you bottle fed there, lol)... on a hot June day, it's dim, cool, quiet... you can SIT... sigh... those were the days!
I posted this in another thread but I thought I'd put it here too. Some people may not like this but here goes. Not all of the smoking areas are shown on the maps, if you ask a CM you can find some unknown smoking areas and I have found that many times they are empty. And understandably Disney doesn't want a bunch of smokers out in the open so many of these places are tucked away behind trees or buildings and are in the shade and away from the crowds. You may not like them if someone is smoking back there but chances are that some of them are empty. And this goes for all of the Parks.
"The Mad cannot Explain, Just As The Sane Cannot Comprehend"
Those are my two! My dad and I always get excited when the car flips around in HM...
Also, I've caught people sleeping in Phillarmagic and Carousel of Progress, so I guess if you have seen it before and just need a place to nap, its pretty peaceful in there and no one will disturb you for at least 8-10 minutes and its cool and dark
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney
"Adults are just grown up kids, anyway." -Walt Disney
(((Por favor mantangense alejado de las puertas )))
*My Visits*1988 - Polynesian Resort*1991- Port Orleans*1992- Port Orleans*1994- Wilderness Lodge*1995- Caribbean Beach*1997- Boardwalk*1998- Old Key West*1999- All- Star Movies*2000- Wilderness Lodge*2000- Caribbean Beach*2001- Wilderness Lodge*2001- Port Orleans Riverside*2001- Coronado Springs*2002 - Boardwalk*2003 - Contemporary*2003 - Caribbean Beach*2003 - All Star Sports & Music*2004- Grand Californian (DL)*2004 - Boardwalk*2005 - Boardwalk*2006 - Wilderness Lodge*2007- Boardwalk*2007 - Wilderness Lodge*2008 - Saratoga Springs*2009 - Off Site*2011 - Bay Lake Tower/Boardwalk Villas*February, 2012 - POFQ
The area around sleepy hollow is nice especially with a ice cream cookie sandwich...... YUM!
Yes, I also would like to say that walkway between Toontown and Tomorrowland! It is really peaceful site in MK and an ideal place in MK for those people who want to spend some time in a peaceful ambiance.
Best Regards,
I have always liked the rocking chairs on Tom Sawyer Island. Being right on the water with a light breeze is nice.
You may not realize it when it happens, but a kick in the teeth may be the best thing in the world for you.
Walt Disney


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text: Number 9. "Tony Bolwell, who lives in the town, spotted the similarity with Hitler's symbol". The Swastika is not Hitler's symbol. The Swastika can be traced back to 1000BC, and was used as a good luck symbol. To quote Wiki "The word swastika comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "Su" (meaning "good" or "auspicious") combined with "asti" (meaning "it is"), along with the diminutive suffix "ka". The Swastika literally means "It is good"". Just thought i'd get that out there!:)


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It's a common gibe that anyone running for President has to be a bit mental to want the job in the first place, much less suffer the indignities involved in pursuing it. Which may be why I find it odd when the candidates start diagnosing one another: Speaking today in Fairfax, Virginia, President Obama finally [...]
Late Night: A Familiar Diagnosis |
By: Swopa Friday October 19, 2012 8:00 pm |
One Track Minds |
By: cocktailhag Thursday June 21, 2012 8:00 pm |
Republicans don't like a lot of things, a trait for which they're somewhat famous, but they do like to win. Naturally enough, they also take a very dim view of losing, and that's what always gets them in trouble. When they lose, a whole passel of latent pathologies drive them to do the nuttiest things, most of which ultimately redound to their detriment, but they simply can't help themselves.
The last two times they've lost the Presidency due to the usual rank incompetence and resulting widespread public revulsion, their reaction has been pretty much the opposite of what a sane person would do in such a situation, but the pattern is quite clear.


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Biblioteca Virtual Miguel de Cervantes. EL ALEPH. La Biblioteca virtual más grande del mundo. Libros Gratis. Bajar Libros Gratuitos Digitales de Ciencias Sociales Filosofia. Philosophy. La sociedad del aprendizaje / Cisco. Philosophers, Culture Critics, and Theorists. Slavoj Zizek. Slavoj Žižek, Ph.D., is a senior researcher at the Institute of Sociology, University of Ljubljana, Slovenia, and a visiting professor at a number of American Universities (Columbia, Princeton, New School for Social Research, New York University, University of Michigan).
Slavoj Žižek recieved his Ph.D. in Philosophy in Ljubljana studying Psychoanalysis. He also studied at the University of Paris. Slavoj Žižek is a cultural critic and philosopher who is internationally known for his innovative interpretations of Jacques Lacan. Ayn Rand Society. Wittgenstein. Ludwig Wittgenstein. First published Fri Nov 8, 2002; substantive revision Mon Mar 3, 2014 Considered by some to be the greatest philosopher of the 20th century, Ludwig Wittgenstein played a central, if controversial, role in 20th-century analytic philosophy.
He continues to influence current philosophical thought in topics as diverse as logic and language, perception and intention, ethics and religion, aesthetics and culture. Originally, there were two commonly recognized stages of Wittgenstein's thought—the early and the later—both of which were taken to be pivotal in their respective periods.
In more recent scholarship, this division has been questioned: some interpreters have claimed a unity between all stages of his thought, while others talk of a more nuanced division, adding stages such as the middle Wittgenstein and the third Wittgenstein. Still, it is commonly acknowledged that the early Wittgenstein is epitomized in his Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. Paul Virilio. Paul Virilio (born 1932) is a French cultural theorist and urbanist.
He is best known for his writings about technology as it has developed in relation to speed and power, with diverse references to architecture, the arts, the city and the military. Biography[edit] Since 1998, Virilio is only teaching intensive seminars at European Graduate School.[1] His latest projects involve working with homeless groups in Paris and building the first Museum of the Accident. Marshall McLuhan.
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Bill to freeze per diem at $185 for Tennessee legislators
NASHVILLE -- A pair of Democratic legislative leaders are calling for a four-year freeze on the daily expense payments Tennessee legislators receive when in Nashville on legislative business.
The "per diem" payment is $185. Under state law, it's adjusted annually based on the federal government's travel expense rates for Nashville. It was adjusted up by $14, from $171 a day, last fall.
Citing University of Tennessee projections that the state's economy may not fully recover to pre-recession levels until 2014, Senate Democratic Caucus chairman Lowe Finney of Jackson is filing legislation to freeze the per diem at the current rate through November 2014.
"Tennessee families are struggling to make ends meet and lawmakers have no business demanding an increase in taxpayer money for personal use. Families across the state are setting priorities every day. We should do the same," Finney said Wednesday.
The per diem is intended to cover legislators' lodging and meals in Nashville when the General Assembly is in session, and does not include mileage rates, which are separate. Lawmakers from the Nashville area who have no hotel expenses are paid at the same rate. One -- Sen. Douglas Henry, D-Nashville -- turns his back in.
Finney said he has returned the extra $14 since it went into effect. He expects to schedule the bill for a committee hearing next week.
House Democratic Caucus chairman Mike Turner of Nashville is sponsoring the bill in the House.
-- Richard Locker: (615) 255-4923.
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Standard Parking Corporation Reports Solid Third Quarter Growth; Reaffirms Guidance
CHICAGO, Nov. 3, 2010 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Standard Parking Corporation (Nasdaq:STAN), one of the nation's leading providers of parking management, ground transportation and other ancillary services, today announced 2010 third quarter results. Net income attributable to the Company increased 16% compared with the year ago quarter, to $4.8 million, or $0.30 per share. Earnings per share increased 11% over the third quarter of 2009. The Company also generated $12.7 million of free cash flow in the quarter.
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English Standard Version (ESV) | New International Version (NIV) |
30 And the LORD will cause his majestic voice to be heard and the descending blow of his arm to be seen, in furious anger and a flame of devouring fire, with a cloudburst and storm and hailstones. | 30 The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice and will make them see his arm coming down with raging anger and consuming fire, with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail. |
The English Standard Version is published with the permission of Good News Publishers. (English Standard Version - The Holy Bible Online) | Scripture quoted by permission. Quotations designated (NIV) are from THE HOLY BIBLE: NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION®. NIV®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by Biblica. All rights reserved worldwide. (New International Version Bible Online) |


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quote:I personally wouldn't mess with it. Then again, I took 2 micro biology course in college. Chicken and Gumbo left out are both terrifying to me.
quote:Am I going to die?
quote:I think chicken if cooked to perfection is alright being left out overnight as long as the temperature in the house isn't too warm.
quote: The secondary cooking should kill any pathogens in it.


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4-pc. Cast-Iron Cookie Skillet Set by Skookie
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Cast iron is a great material for cookware. The advantages of cast iron include even heating, superior heat retention, and a natural stick-resistant finish. This makes cast iron great for baking, and you won't get better results with any other cookware.
Each set comes with two skillets, two heating pads and a package of Lehi Roller Mills Gourmet Cookie Mix. The pan is 7-inches and measures 11-inches with handle.
- Dimensions: 12-in.x5-in.x8-in.
- Handle Length: 4-in.
- Material: Cast Iron
- Origin: China
- Warranty: Limited Lifetime
- Weight: 6.6-lbs.
Skillets are very nice, I was able to get free shipping, so the price was awesome!
I recommend this product. -
Bought two of these as gifts and they were a BIG hit. Haven't used them yet but looks like a good quality product and a fun idea.
I recommend this product. -
Perfect for making desserts
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Remember Me
NAMI Georgia is joining with SPAN-GA for their 13th Annual Suicide Prevention Day at the Capitol. Take advantage of this opportunity to share your voice with our state legislators. Let our state representatives know that Suicide Prevention is important to the people they represent and why! Every voice matters.
February 5th, 8AM-3PM at the Georgia State Capitol in Atlanta, Georgia.
There is no fee to participate, but registration is requested. Click below to REGISTER NOW!
Job Opening at Open Doors to Recovery (ODR)
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Publié le 15 janv. 2015
Emploi | Achham District, Sudur Pashchimanchal, Népal
Publié le 6 janv. 2015
Emploi | New York, NY, US
À propos
Possible (formerly known as Nyaya Health) is a nonprofit healthcare company that delivers high-quality, low-cost healthcare to the world's poorest.
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