text:
"McDonalds has partnered with Visa to launch a website to help its low-wage workers making an average $8.25 an hour to budget. But while the site is clearly meant to illustrate that McDonalds workers should be able to live on their meager wages, it actually underscores exactly how hard it is for a low-paid fast food worker to get by. The site includes a sampleтАЭтАШbudget journalтАЭ for McDonaldsтАЩ employees that offers a laughably inaccurate view of what itтАЩs like to budget on a minimum wage job. Not only does the budget leave a spot open for тАЬsecond job,тАЭ it also gives wholly unreasonable estimates for employeesтАЩ costs: $20 a month for health care, $0 for heating, and $600 a month for rent. It does not include any budgeted money for food or clothing." So, ya work 80 hours a week, drive a car that costs $150 a month, sneak out the thrown-out food from McDonalds because you don't need to buy any, pay health insurance at $20 a month. Oh, and live in a place you don't have to have heat. |
Here is a link that might be useful: link
Follow-Up Postings:
How laughable! No budget for FOOD? And notice at the bottom of the form that this is the English version .... |
SO who said anyone should have a living wage working at MCDonalds? |
$27 a day is food money. That's what i got out of it. How is their insurance for both home/car $100? If there is a car note, that should be higher. I pay almost that much and I have renters (not house/home owners) and auto with liability only. I don't believe that amount. |
We have 4 relatives and 2 employees currently working part-time flex hours at McDonald's, or Burger King. All are young, single, childless, don't own vehicles and live with parents, so there would be many $0 entries in their budget. You'd think they'd be well off financially working 2 or 3 jobs with no major expenses, however they have little savings and zero investments. |
"they have little savings and zero investments." Because no one ever teaches them. They're just told to "save it" in some vague aphorism. Not how to, when to, where to... It's a skill that is sorely lacking in America. Not taught in schools and is generational. |
Sure the $27 a day can be used for food of course. But it would be more realistic if food was actually mentioned in the budget ... so that expectations are clear. And of course, all this is predicated on the budget having two incomes. 160 hours (4 weeks times 40 hours a week) times $8.25 an hour equals $1,320 before any taxes being withheld. So $1,105 might be after taxes/withholding. That means a person works a 40 hour week, then somehow gets a second job that pays almost as much ($955) .... and that gives them enough to live on assuming they can find rent for $600, a car payment for $150 and gasoline for ... wait, no budget for gasoline either. Yep, doesn't seem possible to consider this a living wage. Let's certainly hope the person doesn't have kids! |
A Living Wage depends on numerous variables - hourly wages, hours worked per week/month/year, number of jobs worked, distance to/between jobs, where you live, whether you own/rent, whether you walk, bike, drive, take transit/taxis to work, whether you live on your own, or with parents, current/past debts, number/size of income streams per household, number of paying room-mates, number of dependents, age of dependents, daycare costs, taxes paid/not paid, tax credits - too much to list. A Self Sufficiency Wage locally (based on working 40 hours year round) ranges from $7.69 per hour for a childless household with 2 workers to $36.60 for a household with 3 preschoolers and one worker. |
Here is a link that might be useful: The Self-Sufficiency Standard Saratoga County, NY
"they have little savings and zero investments." Because no one ever teaches them. They're just told to "save it" in some vague aphorism. Not how to, when to, where to... It's a skill that is sorely lacking in America. Not taught in schools and is generational. These individuals had home economics courses in high school and fully understand the math, plus some have very successful mentors that have tried to help them, however they lack the DISCIPLINE necessary to budget/save/spend/invest wisely and to delay gratification. On a positive note, much of our economy is based on their consumers on steroids type spending. |
Nothing like belittling your employees by inferring they don't know how to manage the meager pittance you are obligated to shell out as employer. Maybe that pittance is the problem... the solution to actually pay closer to a living wage. |
The numbers on the "sample" are unimportant. They're trying to encourage employees to plan, budget, spend and save wisely, make goals, assess needs vs wants etc. Set Your Goals Everyone needs financial goalsтАжbuying a car; going on vacation; paying for school; even something as simple as spending less money than you make. Just having a goal is a step in the right direction. People are actually more likely to get ahead if they have a goal - and if being better with money is one of your goals, then follow these steps to success. STEP 1: Evaluate your values Your values are what you use to judge things as important or unimportant. TheyтАЩre the core of a good financial plan. You need to really understand your own values as you develop goals. Use this What Are Your Goals Worksheet to help guide your goals. STEP 2: Decide what you Need vs. Want You need to decide what you WANT and what you NEED. Evaluate your current financial situation. Take a broad look at the way things are now. You can call this step taking stock, taking inventory, or even taking a step back to see the big picture. Whatever you call this step - don't skip it. Make two lists: a WANT list and a NEED list. As you decide what to add to your lists, ask yourself the following questions: Why do I want it? STEP 3: Get SMART A realistic goal is SMART (in more ways than one) Specific Specific я┐╜" Smart goals are specific enough to suggest action. Measurable я┐╜" You need to know when youтАЩve achieved your goal, or how close you are. Goals which aren't measurable, like "I'd like to have more money," are much harder to achieve - and you don't even know when you get there. Attainable я┐╜" The steps toward reaching your goal need to be reasonable and possible. Relevant я┐╜" The goal needs to make common sense. You don't want to struggle or work toward a goal that doesn't fit your need. Time-related я┐╜" Set a definite target date. Build Your Budget ItтАЩs not always easy to budget. Income and expenses may be different each month. Still, everyone can benefit from having a plan for how to save and spend money. Here calculate your Daily Disposable Income and Build a Monthly Budget. Track Your Spending Now that youтАЩve established a Daily Disposable Income, you can start journaling. This means writing down and tracking all of your daily spending to help you understand where your money goes. It forces a тАЬthink before you spendтАЭ moment. The items you would write down would include things like groceries, clothing, restaurants, transportation, medical expenses and entertainment. |
Meager pittance is better than nothing. No one is forced to remain at meager pittance (minimum wage) if they have an iota of ambition and work ethic. You can't fix stupid. |
Markjames--great post. You forgot Liberal Steps: (1) Blame someone else for your situation (2) Expect personally responsible people to supplement your standard of living and compensate for your failures |
Gosh, might they have electric heat? Is it possible that that is the reason there is not separate line item for heat? $1,200 a year for auto insurance and renters insurance seems pretty reasonable for where I live - maybe even high to me. We have full coverage on two vehicles for less than $1000 a year. Granted the newest one is 8 years old. It depends on where you live and what kind of car you drive. |
Electric heat, sure. Food and gasoline out of thin air, probably not. |
Many pay nothing for heat as they live with relatives, they heat with wood, they receive HEAP and Emergency HEAP etc. Heat and/or hot water is included in many rents as well. |
Food and gas comes from either the other category or the $27 a day. Heck, we don't spend $27 a day on food and gas and there are two of us. I used to teach personal financial management to people who earned less than what is proposed in this scenario. |
- Posted by jerzeegirl 9 (My Page) on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 11:51
It all depends on where you live. $27 a day is different in Miami than it is in Tampa, for example. Especially if you want to eat decent food and not rely on that stuff that will kill you. |
I think you're wrong. I think economics is required only a half of a school year or a full year, but even then, it's more like US and/or global economics. Personal economics isn't taught. Displine! need not be lacking. It's just not something everyone knows how to do. I didn't mean me. I know how. Now. I've learned it long ago, the very hard way. The recent money woes are all from being dragged down. None of which I had control over. |
I used to teach personal financial management to people who earned less than what is proposed in this scenario. And would you teach them to include a budget item for food and gas? |
Rob, I think personal financial management/ financial life skills should be required of every high school student before they graduate. A game where a student is given a real life scenario and has to live it on paper for a semester along with education on budgeting, balancing checking accounts, buying a car, insurance of all types, saving for retirement, leasing an apartment, credit reports, buying a house, applying for a job, keeping the job, etc would be part of the ideal course. I'm sure others have things they would like to see in it as well. |
It's only mandated in 13 US states (mine happens to be one, weirdness!). Here's one article, but there are loads of them. Further, what the studies are finding out though, education about personal finance isn't even enough. People still can't manage their money. The whys haven't even been decided. |
Here is a link that might be useful: personal finance isn't required
I would love a health plan for $20 a month! Where can I get one? Good luck if you need a root canal, crown or god forbid, glasses. Those are luxury items. |
80 hour weeks at minimum wage: coming close to survival. And nobody bats en eye with that. 7 days at 11.42 hours a day, and there ya go. when you're working that much, who has time to hang out at an apartment anyway? If you combine that rent money with the car money, and sleep in back seat of the car, they'll come out like way ahead. With those savings, they can invest in their future - get a degree, maybe buy some stocks, who knows - after all, this is America, and everybody can succeed if they just try. |
- Posted by duluthinbloomz4 zone 4a (My Page) on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 12:53
I sense "health" may be any medicine cabinet items, personal hygiene items, etc... what you wander around for at Walgreens or Walmart. |
With those savings, they can invest in their future - get a degree, maybe buy some stocks, who knows - after all, this is America, and everybody can succeed if they just try. * Not everyone will succeed or deserves success, however that is measured. You have the right to TRY. It's up to you if you do succeed, or not. The problem is, if it's not easy and handed to people, or a snag comes into play, they throw up their hands and complain about the people passing them by. It reminds me of a runner that stumbles over a twig and instead of getting up and rejoining the race sits and whines about how it's not fair he happened upon a twig and no one else had a twig in front of them so now he can't finish the race. You can succeed if you have your wits, your health (and you don't have to have full health, just basic wits, really--paralyzed and disabled people fully support and care for themselves) and determination. You may or may not, but you can try if you have these things. No one is or should be guaranteed more than that. This country, more than any other country, foments unlimited success. It just won't hand it to you. |
- Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 13:15
80 hour weeks at minimum wage: coming close to survival. That seems to be the assumption of McDonald's as well. I wonder what percentage of employees at a local McDonald's actually work a full 40-hour week, and if management can cut an employees hours at will. That would blow a big hole in the proposed budget. An 80-hour work week would leave little time for night classes, occupational training, etc. to prepare the employee for a better job. |
No, no really: they're all just lazy parasites! No need for the company to provide adequate compensation at all!! Instead, the company "shows" them how to supposedly get by on slave's wages here in The Land of the Free - free to work for the 1%, on their terms. |
The following are rough monthly expenses of one of our 20 year old relatives (that doesn't live with parents), HS graduate, no college working 1 low skilled full time job and one part-time job. (income from part-time job @ $11.50 per hour not included) Income: $1,850 to $2,200 per month depending on hours. |
Oh poo-they can do without sleep. what wusses... Of course there is Demi's usual belief that no one is owed a living wage-well I keep wondering why not? In what holy writ does it say that an employer should not be required by law to pay a living wage? When you talk the dictates of the "market place" what determines those dictates but the culture in which one lives. We are all certain enough about not allowing this wage slave go out and take what her or she needs from those who have way more than they need-in this case having taken the extra income generated by said wage slave for themselves. Why cant the employee hold up the owner at gun point and take a larger share of the profits? If everyone did it it would be the dictates of the market place, business as usual. Why not? |
All of the current McDonald's and Burger King workers we know make around $9 to $10 per hour and only work part-time flexible hours. It's not easy to get a job at many McDonald's stores. At one point we had several relatives and several employees that had applied, yet none received calls for an interview. During the big hiring event McDonald's rejected well over 90 percent of job applicants. Workers per store at many locations are way down due to automation, efficiency and higher worker performance demands. |
With the low hours an employee can obtain at places like McDonald's... to cut out the cost of employer offered health insurance... 80 hours per week would include a second job and possibly a third, all part time... though, how one could find three jobs that mesh so well into a plausible schedule is anyone's guess. Logistics will play an important role in McDonald's "budget scenario"... as mentioned above, money is worth and spends differently in various areas of the nation. Where could one find a decent apartment for $600 a month? In too many parts of the country, that would barely pay for a room at the local no-tell motel on a long term basis... which you'd have to share with cockroaches and other nasty creatures, no maid service included. What sort of car is driven at $150 a month, and how does one find gas money to fuel it, or maintenance to keep it on the road, for that matter? And I wonder how $100 will pay for both auto insurance and homeowner's or renter's insurance? I, too, would like to know where someone could find decent health insurance for $20 a month... though, as mentioned above, the need for dental care or glasses would be luxuries... as would almost any health issue with the coverage that $20 a month would buy. If one is working 80 hours per week, I suppose it would save on utilities, though even Florida can get a chilly in winter. Heat would be somewhat of a necessity. Since it's normally forbidden to take home leftover food from places like McDonald's, I'm wondering what this fictional person budgeting would eat? I'm also wondering how anyone could squeeze cable television and phone service out of $100 a month? Of course, if you're working 80 hours a week, you wouldn't be watching television or talking on a phone very much. Electric is only one utility... what about gas or propane, water, sewer, trash disposal? How would all that be managed at $90 a month? Of course, if one is busting their hump working 2 or 3 low income jobs, I don't suppose the first thing they think of every month is placing $100 of that vast income in a savings account so it can be utilized by that institution while earning virtually nothing. I've lived on a lot less, but I've also got a vast network of other variables at my disposal that aren't included in such a ridiculous budget. The whole thing smacks of how today's corporations simply don't care about their reputations, or how they treat those that labor away so they can realize such hefty profits. I wonder what the monthly income and budget looks like for McDonald's executives? |
Yeah, but, see, the thing is - they deserve it. When you're a social snob, rich guys are cool and wage earners are turds, whose contributions do not merit fair and adequate compensation. |
Electric is only one utility... what about gas or propane, water, sewer, trash disposal? How would all that be managed at $90 a month? Heat, hot water, water/sewer, washer/dryer and trash disposal are included in many of my rents and often split 2 or 3 ways with room-mates, or multiple workers within a household. Of course there's no heating bill much of the year. Those that don't have the resources, ability, or willingness to support themselves also qualify for HEAP, Emergency HEAP, free furnaces, boilers, water heaters, winterization, waetherization and numerous other public assistance benefits. |
I'm also wondering how anyone could squeeze cable television and phone service out of $100 a month? Time Warner charges $99 per month for digital cable, digital phone and high speed internet. They have lower tiers that are cheaper as well. Frontier has some DSL, phone and satellite promotions that are even cheaper. Many households use WiFi hotspots, use unlimited cellular plans for surfing, or connect to unsecured and poorly secured APs. |
Mark-you live in some sort of unique third world enclave. In my part of the world $600 a month could get you a trashed trailer in a flood zone and nothing is going to be included, and as for all the assistance I have to wonder when during your 80 hour work week you are going to find the time to access all that help-perhaps that is why people supposedly quit their jobs since they are starving in the dark while working their hinies off and do not have space in their schedule for getting help? My health insurance costs more than they allow for rent and at what point in your adult working life(why assume this person is a teen?) do you get your room? I still want to know why it isn't allowed for this person to equally rob the business owner? Tit for tat? |
I'm also wondering how anyone could squeeze cable television and phone service out of $100 a month? * No one needs cable television or phone service. Anyway, anyone that wants a phone can get one--there are people handing out multiple free cell phones with free coverage to drug dealers, and surely truly needy people. |
We have no idea what area the McDonald's budget was published for. Around here you can rent a room in a house or a studio apartment for $600. Just like car insurance and gas, rent is highly dependent on where you live. If one assumes $50 a month for car maintenance, gas prices around $3.75 and a car that gets 20mpg, $100 will buy enough gas to drive just over 525 miles a month or 133 a week. You aren't going to take any road trips but you can get to work and back assuming that you live relatively close to where you work. Jodi, as I said before, my car insurance for two vehicles is less than $1000 a year. DD's renters insurance was around $180 a year. |
Mark-you live in some sort of unique third world enclave. In my part of the world $600 a month could get you a trashed ditto here in Tennessee. And we have a very low cost of living. |
"Tyree Johnson scrubs himself with a bar of soap in a McDonaldтАЩs (MCD) bathroom and puts on fresh deodorant. He stashes his toiletries in a Kenneth Cole bag, a gift from his mother who works the counter at MacyтАЩs, and hops on an El train. His destination: another McDonaldтАЩs. Johnson isnтАЩt one of ChicagoтАЩs many homeless people who seek shelter in fast-food joints. HeтАЩs a McDonaldтАЩs employee, at both stores -- one in the Loop, the other about a mile away in the shadow of Holy Name Cathedral. тАЬI hate when my boss tells me she wonтАЩt give me a raise because she can smell me,тАЭ he said. snip Johnson would need about a million hours of work -- or more than a century on the clock -- to earn the $8.75 million that McDonaldтАЩs, based in the Chicago suburb of Oak Brook, paid then- CEO Jim Skinner last year. "snip end quote See? They even let you work in two McDonalds!!! |
Here is a link that might be useful: link
Isn't he so lucky David? MUCH sarcasm _____________________ |
Or, you don't have to work at McDonalds do you? |
But isn't that the phrase, there are always job out there? What else is there besides flipping burgers that is "always" available? My ex isn't flipping burgers. He's delivering pizzas and hospital medications (oh so worthy and fitting for him, NOT!!!). But he's not too proud so as not to work. What choice is there? |
No Mrsk you can use your last pay check to buy yourself a gun-that is the historical solution to being robbed by your employer. Take to the highway and tell folks to stand and deliver. Not the most perfect solution but still viable. |
From the same bloomberg link: "Shareholders, not employees, have reaped the rewards. McDonaldтАЩs, for example, spent $6 billion on share repurchases and dividends last year, the equivalent of $14,286 per restaurant worker employed by the company. At the same time, restaurant companies have formed an industrywide effort to freeze the minimum wage, whose purchasing power is 20 percent less than in 1968, according to the Economic Policy Institute, a think tank that advocates for low- and middle-income workers." |
Mark-you live in some sort of unique third world enclave. In my part of the world $600 a month could get you a trashed ditto here in Tennessee. And we have a very low cost of living. The rental I mentioned is a 3 bedroom unit within a 3 unit multi-family located in a nice village between two beautiful lakes. Tenants have lake rights and beach rights as well, plus use of the school athletic fields and gym. They could technically put out their own dock or mooring buoy if they wanted to. The tenants also have nearly unlimited parking/storage, plus a large garden. They're only a minute from numerous marinas, two minutes from two beaches and, 3 minutes from their dock space and 7 minutes form a beautiful public campground and beach. They don't have any kids, however the school system is one of the best in the area. |
And people wonder why drugs and violence and other criminality is a regular part of the American fabric... |
Congrats! You have the one rental property in the entire nation. We're talking about reality. Average rent in Nashville for a ONE bedroom $761. And it's really inexpensive to live here (groceries for my son and myself are $200 a month. We don't eat scraps either). Maybe rental properties are in high demand here? But the reality is, it cannot be done for $600 a month. |
Here is a link that might be useful: see for yourself
What else is there besides flipping burgers that is "always" available? In many local regions they're "always hiring" nurses, CNAs, PCAs, HHAs, ARC staff, warehouse workers, fork truck drivers, delivery drivers, truck drivers, cashiers, cooks (not fast food), stockers, maintenance workers, production workers, automotive/diesel mechanics, auto body techs, plumbing/heating/cooling/refrigeration techs, electricians etc. The best bet for many unskilled and low skilled workers is one of the local distribution warehouses - Target, Walmart, Stewart's etc as they're full time jobs and pay well. |
- Posted by duluthinbloomz4 zone 4a (My Page) on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 16:45
Surely we've all considered the notion that the budget idea put forth by McDonalds and Visa should be regarded as a template. I have no great love for either McD or V, but it strikes me there are many who've never sat down to document income and list expenses. Something as simple as this could be an epiphany "look where the money goes" moment to someone. The line item expenditures might seem to be ridiculous because our work and financial situations are different. And because there are HTers who haven't had to do a budget or follow one for years if ever. |
Congrats! You have the one rental property in the entire nation. We're talking about reality. Average rent in Nashville for a ONE bedroom $761. And it's really inexpensive to live here (groceries for my son and myself are $200 a month. We don't eat scraps either). Maybe rental properties are in high demand here? But the reality is, it cannot be done for $600 a month. My tenants pay between $500 per month and $2,000 per week depending on the location and property. My Saratoga rents are 2X to 3X more than rents in surrounding counties. Groceries are very reasonable in many regions due to brutal competition, sales, promotions, loss leaders etc. I just paid 79 cents per pound for split chicken breasts and got a 60 cent per gallon discount on 20 gallons of gas for spending $80. |
Posted by rob333 (My Page) on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 15:21 But isn't that the phrase, there are always job out there? What else is there besides flipping burgers that is "always" available? My ex isn't flipping burgers. He's delivering pizzas and hospital medications (oh so worthy and fitting for him, NOT!!!). But he's not too proud so as not to work. What choice is there? * Well, there's spending $100 at Home Depot and getting a ladder and a bucket and a squeegee and washing windows. Seriously--one can earn over $400 in this region washing windows, even going door to door. Doing yard work is another--$15 to $20 an hour plus tips. A healthy man willing to work hard and long hours can get a bus ticket to Louisiana, Texas, or Montana or Wyoming and make great money working in the oil field. I know older men who have done it, and two young men who have done it, make great money, send for their families and have started new lives. * "тАЬI hate when my boss tells me she wonтАЩt give me a raise because she can smell me,тАЭ he said. Any person that has worked at McDonalds for twenty years and still makes minimum wage hasn't done something right. No doubt many others have passed this person by for others they considered management material. Unfortunately, working at McDonalds does make you smell. I know a man that owned two very lucrative McDonald's restaurants, and he started out flipping burgers years before. I would think she would be grateful that that smell paid for her home and other necessities and luxuries. People are just spoiled. Any person that works for years at McDonalds without becoming manager |
This post was edited by demifloyd on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 21:16
- Posted by tishtoshnm 6/NM (My Page) on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 21:24
I hate to say it Demi, but i absolutely would not hire somebody to wash my windows going door to door unless they could prove they had the appropriate insurance. that insurance would greatly add to their start-up costs but it certainly sounds like a lawsuit in the making. |
Posted by tishtoshnm 6/NM (My Page) on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 21:24 I hate to say it Demi, but i absolutely would not hire somebody to wash my windows going door to door unless they could prove they had the appropriate insurance. that insurance would greatly add to their start-up costs but it certainly sounds like a lawsuit in the making. * I woudn't either, but a lot of people do hire them. I know so many widows and divorced ladies, older people, who are from the old school and just want their windows washed and do not demand proof of insurance. I have found a nice young man who does a great job and I recommend him to my friends. I have a lot of windows and he does all of the outside windows in 6 hours, two stories. He has his own lawn company and insurance, now, but he started out while going to college part time. There are ways to make money, is my point. |
"Any person that has worked at McDonalds for twenty years and still makes minimum wage hasn't done something right. Is this man mentally challenged? That's the only excuse I can see for working at McDonalds for twenty years and still not making over minimum wage. He could be a franchise owner by now if he applied himself." You clearly do not know the 2013 requirements for becoming a franchise owner. They start with having close to $1 million in liquid assets..... |
Any person that has worked at McDonalds for twenty years and still makes minimum wage hasn't done something right. Most local workers that are still making Minimum Wage after 6 months generally have a very long list of issues holding them back. It's very difficult to find a job that only pays minimum wage and/or doesn't offer raises. Other than managers, shift managers and maintenance workers, we've never known anyone that's worked for McDonald's for more than a year. Most last less than 6 months. Even though they were making substantially more than minimum wage, most workers we know lasted less than 6 months since they're was little or no chance for more hours, full-time work, or promotion. Chance for more hours, full time, promotions etc are much better at Walmart and other large employers. |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 9:25
"we've never known anyone that's worked for McDonald's for more than a year. Most last less than 6 months. I go through the drive-thru at McDonald's, (or Burger King or Dunkin Donuts), several times each week. There are indeed some people, older people, who are working there for extended periods of time, but the biggest percentage of the people handing me my coffee are young kids, perhaps their first job, who keep being rotated out of the job. These kids, again, for the most part, are not making a career out of this position. It's an entry level job to the workforce. Next you're going to come after the person who hires a kid after school to mow their lawns? The 14 year old baby sitter? These same young people working the drive-thru may very well not have the rental expenses you're imaging. They may very well still be living, like they have all their lives, at home, with mom and dad. It's an entry level position to the job market for many of these people. Driving Mom's car, using mom's cable, heat,.... I was thinking, too, about the "need" for cable and a phone. We've certainly got different standards today for an acceptable level of "poverty". Growing up, long after phones existed, there were plenty of people I knew who had no phone. Me, included. There was not a phone or a car or cable in my home while I was growing up. I knew many families whose water supply was from a spring and a peck bucket. Their bathroom was an outhouse. I know things are changing, but still, you "need" cable? I know some people aren't able to do much more than make change and hand you your coffee. That's sad. I make a point of tipping the drive-thru people. My little contribution. Hay |
The assertion that no one needs phone service is just plain ridiculous. Cable one can do without, I agree, but a phone is no longer a luxury. Now I'll wait to get my hand slapped. |
You clearly do not know the 2013 requirements for becoming a franchise owner. They start with having close to $1 million in liquid assets..... * You clearly do not know that in this country it is entirely possible to do so. |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 10:08
"The assertion that no one needs phone service is just plain ridiculous." I was thinking more about "need". Don't forget that, in the world, these people in this country who "need" a phone and still work at McDonald's may not be exactly the 1% of the world, but they're surely not at the bottom 1%. I suspect that a big percentage, (a majority ?), of the people on the face of this earth would be all too happy to have one of these jobs at McDonald's. Even though they may still not be able to afford the phones that they absolutely "need'. Hay |
Oh, Hay, don't forget about the free phones, courtesy of taxpayers via federal government. |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 10:14
And if you're still a kid living at home, use your mom's phone. At what age do you think kids absolutely "need" a phone. Texting phone service, two minutes. Hay |
I figured I would be told that phones are either not necessary (on what planet, may I ask?) or that people can get them "free" from the federal government. Same old, same old. |
Speaking of living with mom and dad, many of our 20 something and 30 something employees still live with relatives, or moved back in with relatives so they have very low living expenses. Relatives often act as taxis (4 -ways to work, from work, to daycare, from daycare), babysitters or loan them their vehicles as well. It's more and more common to see 3 or 4 generations living under the same roof these days. |
Speaking of phones we don't know a single working age poor person (and we know a lot) that hasn't had numerous cellular phones over the years. Unfortunately most have prepaid phones and many of these phones aren't in service as they're heavy texters/chatters/surfers and they've run out of minutes, or they haven't purchased a new phone card. It's very difficult to get in touch with many job applicants, employees, customers and relatives as they're out of minutes, they've changed numbers or their phones aren't working. The dollar stores often have deals on prepaid phones/minutes for less than a couple packs of cigarettes. Income qualified individuals and households can get free cellular phones and minutes as well. Many we know hop unsecured/poorly secured connections then use VOIP to make phone calls as well. |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 11:04
"I figured I would be told that phones are either not necessary (on what planet, may I ask?) Earth, fourth rock from the sun. Where mankind, in one form or another, has managed to exist for millions, billions of years, without a phone and the ability to text. Where a huge percentage of the people today, all over the world, still manage to live without a phone and cable. People who would gladly take these jobs that you whine about. Same old, same old. Hay |
- Posted by duluthinbloomz4 zone 4a (My Page) on Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 11:15
"Earth, fourth rock from the sun... Did some cosmic event catch us unaware? LOL |
Did earth get moved farther from the sun? Or did some other planet pass us up? I'm sorry, but phones are a necessity. If you want to get a job, or stay in contact with a school or many other NEEDS. Thank goodness you can get one even if you're too poor to buy one yourself. Or pay really really inexpensive monthly plans now. I love that we've gone to contract free finally. Cable is a want. But a phone... no way no how can you get by without access to one. |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 11:18
Dave's rent-seekers at work. People wanting to get paid more than they're "worth". Last night I was impressed that the cashier at the drive-thru didn't even need to be able to make change. The cash register automatically dispensed the coins. He only had to count the bills. I suspect it won't be long before the drive-thru won't need two windows, one for paying, one for the order. Just like super markets today, there'll be automatic paying ability machines. With a prerecorded message: "Thank you. Please proceed to the next window and have a wonderful day!!! Thanks from all the crew here at McDonald's." Hay |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 11:22
"Did some cosmic event catch us unaware?" LOL I'm not a very good counter without my coffee. I probably wouldn't make it as a cashier at McDonald's. Less competition for the young kids. Hay |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 11:31
"But a phone... no way no how can you get by without access to one." But, somehow, all over the world, people do it all the time. The reality is that, if kids had less access to texting, to cable, to TV, to cars, to video games... .they might actually have time to learn to be creative, to figure out ways to make money. Worked for me. And access is not the same thing as owning. Mom has one, your friend has one. Hay |
Just to draw attention again to the calculation that McDonalds last year distributed profits - in the form of share buy backs and dividends, to the tune of $14,286 per employee. Which works out to 32 hours a week for someone earning $8.50 an hour. This bothers me - I'm not sure why. That means that after taking into account all the other expenses - the buns, burgers, heat, electricity, hosing down the play area with disinfectant, $8.5 mil CEO salary, etc, that even then, they make that kind of money. And fight like dogs to keep the minimum wage as low as they can. |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 11:51
"This bothers me - I'm not sure why." Not that I lose sleep over it, but I really don't like it that we're at a point in the cycle where we expect, no, DEMAND, that our employers give us the living that we "need". Enough for today. Bye. Hay |
Bye, Hay, don't let the door.....you know the rest. But I do think that employers who are making huge profits should be expected to provide their employees with a wage on which they can at least subsist--there would be no profits without the workers. |
Eventually more and more fast food workers will be eliminated via automation in cooking, prep, sales etc - a win/win for owners, investors and customers. The most expensive part of that flimsy burger from your local fast food joint isn't what you put in your mouth; it's the human hands that put it together. But this robotic burger-maker that preps, grills, and assembles your Royale with Cheese"automatically"may soon replace human line cooks altogether while saving the fast food industry billions. Built by San Francisco-based Momentum Machines, this robotic burger maker is designed to do the work of three full-time kitchen staff. The current alpha version of the machine grinds, stamps, and grills patties (made to order), then cuts and layers lettuce, onions, pickles, and tomatoes before slapping everything on a bun and wrapping it to go. The only human labor involved is that needed to take the customer's money and hand over the completed burger. This robot is not only fast"able to spit out 360 burgers an hour"it is exceedingly compact as well. Instead of the normal full kitchen with its multiple workstations dominating the rear half of every restaurant, the burger-maker takes up only 24 square feet. Momentum Machines hopes that this will spur a redesign of fast food eateries more focused on the customer experience. What's more, this machine is far more sanitary than current methods. By removing humans from the cooking line, this machine also removes the possibility of contamination from our many bodily fluids. This machine is also relatively inexpensive to operate compared to human workers; it doesn't call in sick or get hurt or randomly walk off the job either. Momentum Machines estimates that every fast food franchise in America spends an average of $135,000 annually on staffing. By replacing these people with this machine, the fast food industry could save upwards of nine billion dollars a year"a savings that could be reinvested in much better quality ingredients without raising the cost of the product itself. Now that is a tasty burger |
Same old, same old. Yup, same old same old. Top dogs continue to get richer while the worker bees are thrown under the bus. And you're just fine with that. Because in some 3rd world country there are people without phones that would love to have a job at McDs. Same old, same old, indeed. |
The reality is that, if kids had less access to texting, to cable, to TV, to cars, to video games... .they might actually have time to learn to be creative, to figure out ways to make money. Worked for me. * Works for a lot of people. That WORK. |
"Yup, same old same old. Top dogs continue to get richer while the worker bees are thrown under the bus. And you're just fine with that. Because in some 3rd world country there are people without phones that would love to have a job at McDs. Same old, same old, indeed." Your charge, Jill, that I am fine with American workers being thrown under the bus because 3rd world workers without phones would be happy with jobs at McD's is totally unfounded. In fact, the logic that apparently links the two situations in your mind is foggy at best. Well, actually I really don't know what you mean. I have no idea why you are so bitter about American workers demanding a living wage. |
So sorry, pidge. My cut and paste was from hay's post, not yours. Should have made that clear. Sorry, was not referring to you at all! To be clear, I am not at all bitter about workers demanding a living wage. I am very bitter about some people's refusal to understand why that should be. And actions by those in power to do everything in their power to prevent it from happening. Therefore ensuring they get richer while their workers suffer. |
Okay, jill, gotcha. We are actually on the same page, it seems. Good. |
Our local paper had an editorial about a recent survey on a living wage (single person, 40 hr / week) in our area, and the closest town was the lowest, clocking in at $10.50 an hour. Thats because there is a glut of cheap apartments. Other towns in a 100 mile radius varied from that up to $12.something an hour. The minimum wage in Colorado is $7.78 an hour. Its tied into the inflation rate, so with the Great Recession and collapse in prices, its actually gone down over the past few years. At the link is a living wage calculator for most areas in the country. |
Here is a link that might be useful: link
Normally, where you find cheap rentals and homes you'll also find a job market bereft of jobs... meaning there's nowhere hiring, nowhere to find gainful employment, and usually a depressed economy. I agree with you, Jill... and as the disparity grows, so does the depression... and the desperation. |
According to the living wage calculator a living wage for a single person in several areas I own rentals in the $1,000 plus per month range is in the mid $9 per hour range. It's possible to survive on that wage if you own your home free and clear, have a small mortgage, own a multi-family, have room-mates, live with relatives, or live 15 to 30 minutes outside the cities/villages/towns. |
Normally, where you find cheap rentals and homes you'll also find a job market bereft of jobs... meaning there's nowhere hiring, nowhere to find gainful employment, and usually a depressed economy. We have the opposite in some of our cheap rent, high poverty, high unemployment, high dropout rate regions. They have good job markets, but shortages of available and qualified workers, hence why much work is performed by workers working overtime, 2 or 3 jobs and out of area commuters. |
Hay, when was the last time an employer hired you? You cannot set up interviews without a phone. They can't call you back without a phone. They can't conduct a cursory phone interview. It's almost as hard to get a job without a phone as it is without a computer. Difference is, you can get access to a computer. Try not having a phone and borrowing one in public. Oh, and those places that don't have phones, don't have employment with reasonable levels of income or beneifts. Tell me where outsdie of third wolrd countires they don't have phones? Because I work with people all over the wolrd. They all have phones. Just like ours. Well, some are better than ours. I'm not saying buy the biggest best, does everything phone. But no phone, it won't work. If you claim it's ok and you have been without a phone, I'd like to know how that worked for you? Seriously. |
DAKAR : Rene Mendy, a street vendor in Dakar, has never had enough money to open a bank account. But now, thanks to an emerging mobile phone banking service, he has access to many financial services. Using a service called Orange Money, for example, he can deposit or withdraw as little as 500CFA (about $1), pay bills from anywhere, recharge phone credit and transfer money to family members. Launched on the continent in Ivory Coast in 2008, the service came to Senegal in 2010 as a pilot program with just 300 users. By July 2012, operating across ten African countries, Orange Money reported their four-millionth subscriber. According to the World Bank, Sub-Saharan Africa is now home to approximately 650 million mobile phone subscribers, a number that surpasses the United States and European Union, and represents an explosion of new communication technologies that are being tailored to the developing world." end quote |
Here is a link that might be useful: and they have satellite to watch soccer as well
Just talked with an employee about her job at McDonald's this morning. Apparently she quit as they'd only give her 12 hours per week on average @ $8.05 per hour - all nights and weekends, plus her co-workers were "creepers" and managers were a$$holes. She got a part-time job at Walgreens with more hours, more flexibility, better pay, better working conditions etc. |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Thu, Jul 18, 13 at 9:21
"Okay, jill, gotcha. We are actually on the same page, it seems. Good." A page right out of the late 1800's. (About 150 years ago for Frank, the date counter.) Listen to you: Pidge: "But I do think that employers who are making huge profits should be expected to provide their employees with a wage on which they can at least subsist--there would be no profits without the workers." Jillinnj: "Yup, same old same old. Top dogs continue to get richer while the worker bees are thrown under the bus." Throw in a couple more slogans about making money off the back of the workers and you've just spelled out the Communist doctrine that let up to the Russian and Chinese Revolution which led to lots and lots and lots and lots of misery. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." That slogan led to the miserable death of millions and millions of people in the last century. You have any new ideas? Hay |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Thu, Jul 18, 13 at 9:22
Rob: "But no phone, it won't work. If you claim it's ok and you have been without a phone, I'd like to know how that worked for you? Seriously. The point I'm making is that these jobs at McDonald's are not jobs being filled by people who plan on making a career out of making change and handing you your cup of coffee. Last night, once again, there's a new, young woman handing me my cup of coffee at Burger King. The staff seems to change on a weekly basis. The point, in this very particular conversation, is that these young people are quite likely to be at one of their first jobs. If we're talking about their budgets and their expenses, then it's fair to point out that, living at home with Mom and Dad, means that many of these expenses don't really keep these kids without spending (and saving) money. Mom will still cook for them, do their laundry, let them take the car, not charge them to rent the same heated bedroom they've been living in for the past 18 years. I don't disagree that a phone is important. They can use Mom's phone until they get a "real" job. If they're planning on making a career out of making change and handing me my coffee, it's going to be difficult to have a phone. That's true. And it happens, I know. That's sad. Hay |
Ahem..so the answer to McD's screwing their employees out of their duly earned income is to have them leach off their middle income(and falling) parents-oh of course! Why didn't we all think of that? McD doesn't have to pay a living wage, because kids can make up the difference between what they really earned and what they actually get by scraping it off their family. Right. The perfect solution-for McDonalds. |
Why should McDonalds pay a living wage? McDonalds pays employees what they are worth, and follows the law. It is not McDonald's job to pay someone enough to pay their living expenses and bills. If one wants a "living wage," they should supplement work at McDonalds, work more than one job, or advance their career. |
I never would have thought that there could exist those who would avidly and without even a little bit of conscience defend the 7 deadly sins... or at least a few of them... even though they, themselves, might not belong to the offending segment of the population... but that defense shows up time and again... in articles we read, out of the mouths of politicians, and even the average citizen has been known to defend the very things they say their faith teaches them is wrong. It's quite the conundrum. |
Oh for Pete's sake, Hay, you are so wrong--I'm actually talking Marxism, not Communism but clearly you don't know the difference. And demi is right here with her screw the workers mantra because if thsoe workers had any "personal responsibility" they would work 20 hours a day just to pay the bills. Geez, I am so glad not to be you. Go ahead, rail away at me. Pfffft! |
markjames: "These individuals had home economics courses in high school and fully understand the math, plus some have very successful mentors that have tried to help them, however they lack the DISCIPLINE necessary to budget/save/spend/invest wisely and to delay gratification. " Sounds a little too much like personal responsibility there. You'd better watch it. McD jobs are for students and retired folks. If that's the only job where you live, move. |
Hay, So you're only talking about kids? But not all people who work at McD or live on budgets are kids. |
Besides young workers, inexperienced workers, college students, recent grads, retired/semi-retired workers etc, many part-time jobs with flexible hours are filled by single parents, second/third jobbers and over-qualified workers on a temp basis. Like I mentioned, we rarely see many working these jobs long term. We do business with several sub shops and donut shops where we often see new faces on a weekly basis. Seems that just when they get to know us by name/sight and get to know our purchasing habits - they vanish. If they don't receive more hours, or advance quickly the good ones leave for greener pastures, or get poached by other employers. |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 9:03
If you find that you need to hire a young kid as a babysitter or a young kid to mow your lawn, I hope your conscience will make sure that you pay them enough to cover all their medical expenses and retirement benefits. Oh, and a phone. One with lots of games on it!!!! Oh, why not, a new car, too. Hay |
Yup, makes perfect sense to compare a huge multi-national corporation making millions of dollars to a person hiring a kid to cut the grass. Yup, perfect sense. To some. As pidge said -- Geez, I am so glad not to be you. |
Amen sistas pidge and jill! |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 9:46
"Tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich........" "From each according to their ability,...." At least 50 million people died in the last century with those rallying cries. Keep it up. It's the Christian thing to do. If you can afford to have a lawn and hire a kid to babysit, you can afford to contribute to his 401K. Hay |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 9:50
"sistas" Sistas: I like that!!! Comrade was getting old. Hay |
Babysitters in DC are earning up to $25 an hour depending on number of children and $100 a day is common. Of course it can be argued that childcare carries more responsibility than flippng a burger (though that might have some rules and regs, too), but clearly not everyone has their pocketbooks zipped tight against folks who need work and are willing to perform it. |
- Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 10:44
So, there's the solution to all your problems, Rob. Move to DC, make $50,000 per year. I might move, too. We can share an apartment and save on the expenses. Let's all go! Now, I'm off to do some work. Not going to be making much money, doing it. DC or BUST!!! Hay |
Babysitting for cash/barter is one of the largest underground industries in many regions. Since competition is brutal many work very cheaply - a buck or two per hour, per kid in cash/barter. Many need to watch several kids to make close to minimum wage. Of course many relatives babysit for free. We've had many workers (single parents) that have quit due to daycare, transportation costs, hassles and timing issues. |
It's simply astounding what passes for "accepted/standard business practices" these days, regardless how underhanded or unethical they really are. Have people become so used to dishonesty and lack of integrity or quality within the workplace and world of business that they just accept being ripped off as part of everyday life, or what? |
Posted by jodik 5 (My Page) on Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 11:00 It's simply astounding what passes for "accepted/standard business practices" these days, regardless how underhanded or unethical they really are. Have people become so used to dishonesty and lack of integrity or quality within the workplace and world of business that they just accept being ripped off as part of everyday life, or what? * Wow, I sure am glad that I live where I do. I find most people that I worked with, and that I come into contact with and do business with, are nothing like the people you describe. In fact, most people are trying to do a good job and responsible, and have ethics. I try to avoid the people that I don't think meet my standards. Most people I know don't accept poor workmanship or poor customer service and if that happens, they demand that they are satisfied. Most everyone I know is just trying to do the best they can, and we all work together to help one another. Most people are honest, have integrity, and do the right thing. At least the people I live around, and come into contact with. In fact--that's been true in the three different states I have lived. |
Locally mowing, trimming and raking lawns pays MUCH MORE than working at McDonald's. If you're motivated and aggressive you'll have more work than you can handle, plus numerous other referrals and odd jobs from existing customers. The work is performance based as well. The faster you work, the more money you make per job and the more jobs you can perform per hour/day/week/month/season. |
Exactly, Jodi. I repeat -- Geez, I am so glad not to be you. The ability to be able to make light of a serious situation in this country is amazing. I am glad my brain is not wired that way. Sure must be handy to have that "personal responsibility" card in your pocket to pull out anytime one needs to not care about a segment of our population. |
- Posted by duluthinbloomz4 zone 4a (My Page) on Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 11:27
In a sense, Jodi, I think people do accept (often because there isn't a choice) a bit of the rip-off in daily life. Examples would abound, but for one, look at the products we buy with built in obsolescence. |
Most people I know don't accept poor workmanship or poor customer service and if that happens, they demand that they are satisfied. I could work full-time year-round just correcting shoddy workmanship, poor designs, code violations, poor troubleshooting etc. We receive poor service from service economy workers on a daily basis, but we accept poor service due to the nature of the industries and workers. Anyone that's good isn't going to stay at a part-time job for very long. |
Speaking of accepting rip-offs, many customers aren't knowledgeable enough to realize their getting ripped off. Many service providers and their employees, subs, temps etc aren't knowledgeable enough to know they're ripping off customers. Many people are way too trusting and/or have low standards and expectations. If a product or service is cheap enough or good enough they're happy. |
I hear ya, Jill... I'm glad I'm not wired that way, either. And I think you must be right, Duluth. In too many cases, the consumer doesn't have a choice. What's on the store shelf is all there is, quality or not... and I think people just buy it anyway, thinking, "oh, well... I need it." It's too bad that quality has taken a dive, or design is engineered to be cheap and short lived... thus making the consumer re-purchase more often. For example, it used to be that the average car owner could do his or her own maintenance, saving a few dollars... but now, cars are engineered and the warranty written so that the car must be taken in to the dealership or other professional shop, where the price for labor and parts have skyrocketed. If there's a way to pinch a penny or take advantage of workers or consumers, someone will find a way... and won't miss a beat while the disparity grows ever deeper... |
Demi- I am talking about a fair share of the profit they make for the company-the only way for McDonalds to make so much profit is for them to keep a larger share of the profits than is right. It is contemptible but it is the business norm and that business norm always leads to eventual system meltdown. System meltdown leads you to your patiently garnered retirement nestegg becoming worthless but you cant see that because you must have skipped History 101. |
Due to the complexity, or poor design of vehicles many are very expensive to service and repair out of warranty, hence why many buy extended warranty coverage, or replace vehicles before the warranty expires. |
I find it suprising how easily and quickly some "independent" thinkers side with a giant fast food corporation, but are able to dismiss what thousands and thousands of that corporation's employees have to saym without listening to or thinking about their comments. I suspect brainwashing and a particular susceptibility to advertising, which is beginning to seem like the hallmark for those who declare theselves conservative, yet have little understanding about what conservatism is. They buy political parties and attitudes like purchasing a Snickers bar - no real idea of the content or how it affects them. |
It's not just cars. Remember when appliances used to last a really long time? I only remember my parents ever owning 1 washing machine. I never remember them having to buy another one in all the years we lived in our house that I grew up in. I've lived in my current house for about 15 years and I'm on my 3rd washing machine, 2nd dryer, 3rd dishwasher... The original refrigerator that was here when I bought the house and the original owners purchased when they built the house in 1985 is still in my basement as my 2nd refrigerator. Ugly as all get out (and an energy hog), but still going strong! They don't make 'em like they used to. |
- Posted by duluthinbloomz4 zone 4a (My Page) on Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 17:14
Same for my wall microwave from 1978 which just died late last year. The wall oven and range top are the same vintage but still going strong. I'm waiting just a little longer before replacing everything at once - and I know I won't get the quality at any price. I did buy an inexpensive counter top microwave in the meantime - we'll see how that does and for how long. |
It's the same for virtually everything manufactured... we've turned into a throw-away society... and we're ruining our environment with all the garbage this creates... all so a few people can realize the largest profits in history and squirrel away that wealth in some corrupt island bank to avoid it being taxed. Cost has risen exponentially, while wages have dropped or stagnated, not keeping pace with what it costs to live... It's all a sad picture of a failing society... on a failing planet. |
- Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 17:46
Years ago I found a source for (used) vintage copper-bottom Revere Ware pots and pans -- early post-war period from a plant in Riverside, CA. The quality is amazing and I have never even considered replacing any of them after decades of use. |
There's good money in salvage, repair and resale since many people junk out of warranty vehicles, toys, equipment, appliances, computers etc rather than repairing them. Some things have become so cheap that they're disposable. It's tough to service many things made overseas with limited production runs, proprietary parts, limited parts availability, numerous revision changes etc. Many things are junked as people want a working solution ASAP! . |
You're absolutely correct that they don't make products like they used to. When I sold my mother's house in 2000 , I left her c. 1948 Hotpoint push button stove with the house. I think she replaced one burner in those 52 years. We both had GE refrigerators which lasted 30 years. I finally even sold mine because it was avocado . I bought a Sears washer the week my son was born and sold it for $25 when he was 26 years old. My daughter did a whole fabulous kitchen remodel with top of the line appliances in 2000 and is on her third refrigerator and had to replace the dishwasher and microwave. When we got married a month after husband graduated from Penn State, he made under $5000 a year...something like $3900 as a state employee. I remember him saying to my father that he expected to make $10,000 a year some day. His daughter makes way over 10 times that amount in a state job. But in that first year we saved $500 , bought three rooms of furniture and the next year bought a cute house and had a baby. We started with nothing, didn't have a big wedding and yet never was he unemployed and never did we borrow money. We just saved till we could afford something. Our mortgage was $115 a month. This was back in the Mad Men era. |
Sounds like many of you think that McD should step up , pay better, and take the place of all the blue collar jobs we have lost. That those jobs are just not here anymore, so McD should start paying more. If only. markjames: "The work is performance based as well. The faster you work, the more money you make per job and the more jobs you can perform per hr/day/week/month/season." We need good leaders in DC. You know, find some people who don't worship the almighty dollar in their own pockets. There's no other way out of this mess. Except, say, a revolution. (Last time I mentioned a revolution y'all pegged me as right-wing nut violent person. But look around the world today.) We will likely need a revolution to get decent people to run this country. The current powers that be are gonna put up a huge fight before they hop on the corporate jets and head for wherever their big bank accounts are sitting. |
markjames: "The work is performance based as well. The faster you work, the more money you make per job and the more jobs you can perform per hr/day/week/month/season." Sounds like hard work. Most people will not do that these days. They think they should get good pay for just showing up, not even on time. Just don't understand that. Yes, it was very hard work - especially hard since my pace of work was so fast, plus I was performing numerous other jobs at the time. On days when weather permitted I often mowed, raked and trimmed first light to dark in the heat and humidity. I mowed many properties with steep banks as well which raised the degree of difficulty. Good money too. Some days I'd make $150 to $200 a day which went A LONG WAY back then. Customers aslo gave me a lot of tips, baked goods, vegetables, other work and referrals. One of my landscapers has had over a dozen new hires quit this year as they can't handle the long hours, heat, humidity, sweating, bugs, fast pace, physical labor etc. He, his wife, son, daughter and 2 employees were the only ones working at one point. Due to all our rain they were mowing light to dark and often after dark. Much of today's youth (and many adults) aren't mentally/physically fit/tough enough to perform much physical labor. They prefer gravy jobs in air conditioned buildings. Many won't perform jobs, or won't last long at jobs which require long days, long weeks, hard work, continuous workloads, continuous repetitive motion, fast paced work, lifting/pushing/pulling, outdoor work, climbing, bending, hours of walking, or working outdoors in the heat, humidity, rain, snow, cold etc. I'm surprised many unskilled service industry jobs pay as much as they do ($10 plus per hour) considering how easy the work is. |
It isn't about how physically hard the work is nor even mentally challenging but how much profit is being made off of the work. If I do a job for you that makes the company $100 an hour profit and you allow me only $ 10 of that money then you are cheating me of my just dues. This is based on the logic that without me you would be making nothing so you owe me a fair share of the money that I make. The division of profits is the cultural divide. As a culture we decide who gets what and for the moment we are giving it all to a tiny percentage of our population. Without a stable society there are no profits and if the workers are starving you don't have a stable society-common sense. When you dump me because of my demands and hire in someone else who works cheaper or off shore the job or what ever sooner or later you hit the tipping point and your society disintegrates and there goes your profit. |
Well said, patriciae. That is exactly the point. How some people get that because one feels that way most people want to be paid and not work hard, is beyond me. And, I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I find statements like this from October, who if I remember correctly was looking very forward to a Romney administration, downright funny: We need good leaders in DC. You know, find some people who don't worship the almighty dollar in their own pockets. There's no other way out of this mess. Except, say, a revolution. (Last time I mentioned a revolution y'all pegged me as right-wing nut violent person. But look around the world today.) We will likely need a revolution to get decent people to run this country. The current powers that be are gonna put up a huge fight before they hop on the corporate jets and head for wherever their big bank accounts are sitting. |
Why would it be so awful to pay one's employees a living wage? Or offer them some sort of benefits package? Or ensure they had enough hours to make a decent living? |
"...the people must realize that last yearтАЩs mother of all election battles has escalated into open warfare to create what Republicans have panted for over the past thirty years; a nation of peasants serving a ruling plutocracy headed by Charles and David Koch." |
Here is a link that might be useful: Eliminate the Minimum Wage
The reality is that most people who are pretty well off financially are fine with the way things are not only for themselves, but for everyone else. They have fine health coverage. You don't? Oh well. The well off have no social conscience, don't need one and don't want one. They don't care. What is revolting are the well off who try to justify wealth inequality by preaching their religion, their ideology and that old personal responsibility bulsh1t. Oh sure, people who are making a pittance don't know how to budget...that's their problem. And besides, they are lazy, stupid and unproductive and deserve their fate. |
This post was edited by heri_cles on Thu, Aug 1, 13 at 23:37
If you want to learn how to budget, just ask a lower income head of household. These are the pros. The MacD budget is laughable. Misconceptions : 80% of the workforce who make minimum wage or lower are over the age of 25. We are seeing the stigma of minimum wage workers completely burst right before our eyes. Most of the people working for minimum wage are doing so to earn a living, not just for extra money to buy something at the mall. These people are mothers and fathers, husbands and wives trying to support their family the best they know how. Most of the people working for minimum wage work full-time. However, we must question the part-time status because are people working 2 part-time jobs in order to survive? and Whites я┐╜" 59,180 The majority of people working minimum wage jobs are white. They out number all minorities combined by 47%. That is stereotype number 2 taken down by facts. |
Here is a link that might be useful: stats by the Bureau of Labor and Statistics
It rankles, Heri, to be sure... to have the truth of the matter denied or swept under the nearest doormat, accompanied by epithets such as, "aw, that's too bad" or "gosh, that must suck", as the extent of any empathetic action. Social conscience is, apparently, for the weak, the liberal minded Democrat... and, gee, they're compassionate enough for everyone, what with their dreams of socialism and redistribution of wealth and everything... and besides, charity takes care of it all, didn't you know that... I ask with sarcasm? Moral obligation has all but disappeared... |
- Posted by duluthinbloomz4 zone 4a (My Page) on Fri, Aug 2, 13 at 11:57
For all that's been written; even if McDonalds, or any other fast food outlet, paid their employees $15 an hour, it wouldn't affect their bottom line one iota. An offset, of course, would be in product minimizing as well as a modest pass along price increase on the menu. Business has its own sense (or lack thereof) of moral obligation and social consciousness that we can easily identify and rail against. Somewhere out there is a just solution, but my hopes aren't particularly high. An increase in the minimum wage would be a good start; but it's just a start. |
- Posted by sleeplessinftwayne z4-5 IND (My Page) on Fri, Aug 2, 13 at 12:09
I watched and listened to the people who were on strike from the fast food industry last week and have to admit I was flabbergasted at some of the statements and the strange missing steps in the logic they should have been using. There seems to be a disconnect somewhere along the line. It did not seem to occur to the single mother with four children that there is no way she could afford to work at McDonalds for twenty hours a week and live in New York City, and the student who wanted to pay off his student loans AND still attend more classes and pay for his current expenses at part time hours kind of blew my mind. The guy who was paying child support for three kids to three different mothers was another who complained he wasn't paid enough. They certainly didn't seem to understand that their pay was not dependent on their individual requirements. I'm not sure any of them understand that an employee is not hired due to the number of dependents they have or the amount of money they owe. The idea of a living wage is a fiction. Wages are determined by what the job is worth. An employee who expects to be paid more than that will be disappointed. They really don't seem to have a grasp of basic economics whether it relates to their employers or themselves. |
Here's an interesting segment of Budget Hearings regarding poverty and food stamps... |
Here is a link that might be useful: Blame the Nuns...
Wages are not determined by what the job is worth, wages are determined by what the company can get away with paying. Our present culture is siding with capital/owners. The US has a mixed record on who gets what with mine owners for instance getting government help in breaking unions in the past. These things change. Other countries do things differently. Look around you Sleepless, our system of top heavy distribution of profits is not the norm in many stable parts of the world. A culture or society determines who gets paid the profits from work. |
Exactly Patricia! I do think that jobs further up the food chain are generally paid according to value and contribution. However, minimum wage jobs are paid whatever the minimum wage is. It has nothing to do with value or contribution and everything to do with paying the least amount possible under the law. When the minimum wage is increased does that mean everyone suddenly got more valuable? Of course not. |
Year after year as some salaries rose while minimum wage remained the same & the rest of the country conspired along with the politicians to keep it that way. Oh I don't want to pay more for t shirts, a hamburger yadda yadda yadda. Year after year I'm worth more so I deserve more quiote often from those in union positions.! when some people were merely getting cost of living other salaries remained frozen at the minimum wage for so many others & somehow there was the demented notion that those people really did deserve to be paid less for nearly everything while other salaries skyrocketed . When I started at the company I'm in now the sales agents got minimum wage + $1.50 & they were mostly college students. SO what what did they need they weren't going to be here in 4 months anyway! When the company changed hands and was taken over by the performers they said this will not do & raised the salaries more than double the minimum wages plus benefits, plus vacation & bonuses & they were making money hand over fist by their own admission & expanded & expanded & have become an international brand The job was still the same job no new additional tasks! There were previously several other jobs in the company that had salaries comparable to Broadway salaries. These positions in Broadway theaters were living wages in the 1940's & 1950's & 1960's & continue to be living wages as the industry went along with the unions. I work in a non union environment but the company has maintained a competitive salary structure quite often better than most non union houses. There's no illusions many of the jobs aren't brain surgery the difference they add something to the economy. If the person with children didn't take the job at some burger barn they would be considered a welfare drain that they do take the job there & can't live on it their stupid You cant win with a punishing segment of the electorate who has been punishing the minimum wage earner for at least 30 years now.. The contrast grows more extreme every year & the frog boiling in the pot is still croaking look at hose lazy good for nothings. |
Another myth: 'wages are determined by what a job is worth" In that case, the Republican Congress owes us, because they are not worth beans. |
Look who's in the accompanying photo. |
Here is a link that might be useful: New jobs disproportionately low-pay or part-time
myself: "Sounds like many of you think that McD should step up , pay better, and take the place of all the blue collar jobs we have lost. That those jobs are just not here anymore, so McD should start paying more. " Not ever gonna happen. Come up with something else. A boycott won't happen. No one cooks anymore. And they won't start over this. |
then our culture is doomed-not a new thing either. I would love to open up the mind of most of you here and get you to grasp what I am talking about. Culture/ society decides what is important and what gets paid and who gets to keep what they get. CEO's are not inherently more valuable or important to a company than the people who do the actual work that makes all the money for the company-we just believe they are because that is what we have been told all our lives. We accept it as truth, like children, without thought. If a company cant operate without workers even the company creator is not more valuable or important. A company cant operate without the CEO either or the ideas that started it or the capital investment and personal input that makes a company work but none of that does any good unless you have the people to make or do the thing the company is there to do...you need all the legs of a table or your dinner is on the floor. We keep whittling off the worker leg. |
From the foregoing article: Many employers have also discovered that they can use technology to do tasks more cheaply and efficiently than office workers used to do. And some have found that they can shift middle-class jobs to low-wage countries such as China |
From the foregoing article: Many employers have also discovered that they can use technology to do tasks more cheaply and efficiently than office workers used to do. And some have found that they can shift middle-class jobs to low-wage countries such as China The same article also mentioned: By contrast, most lower-paying jobs " from waiters and hotel maids to store clerks, bartenders and home health care aides " can't be automated or shipped abroad. Job quality might be poor, but job availability and job security is good in many unskilled/low skilled occupations, especially HHAs, PCAs, CNAs etc. Lots of private duty cash gigs as well. |
.".......the frog boiling in the pot is still croaking, look at those lazy good for nothings." Brilliant! |
At least some people understand the concept... like the good people of Bolivia... "Why would you pay someone to provide you with a less-than-delicious and unhealthy alternative to real food?" |
Here is a link that might be useful: Fast Food Rejection
jill: "And, I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I find statements like this from October, who if I remember correctly was looking very forward to a Romney administration, downright funny: " Your memory is incredibly unreliable. If I were you, I would stop relying on it, for good. Since you don't have a good memory, you will need to be prepared to back up any statements you make. (Of course you won't be able to back anything up.) But then, I have never bought into anything you have posted so far anyway. You're one of those black and white people. Anyone not in the obamaloney camp must be in the romney camp. So old, so yesterday. ROFL |
If I did not remember correctly, I apologize. Now, if you'd read my posts you'd know I have plenty of problems with Obama and don't assume anything. I'm sure you too are capable of apologizing. Right? And speaking of black and white (see I do remember sometimes!)...who do you think speaks for the white community? You never answered that question, even though you asked me to repeat the question because for some reason you couldn't scroll up on the thread to find it. Well, now that thread is full (how convenient!), so I thought I'd give you another opportunity to answer it here. Thread is linked in case you've forgotten. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Other thread
Whew. That took a lot of scrolling, but yep, it is the way I remember it (no offense, Jill). Here's Jill's post with the unanswered question: тАвPosted by jillinnj (My Page) on Mon, Jul 29, 13 at 13:24 (October): "Well, who else is there speaking for the black community?" Are you white? Who speaks for the white community? Do you think every white person on TV speaks for the white community?" As all can see, Jill didn't answer October's question. Maybe once she takes care of that bit of business, October will in turn answer Jill's (3) questions. Or not. |
elvis - I really wish you'd invest some time in reading comprehension. It would benefit you in many areas, not just here at HT. |
Right back atcha, Jill. I can both remember and read what you wrote. |
Yes, you can read it. It's the comprehending part I'm talking about. |
October's question came first. You didn't answer it; you repeated it. My, are you being obtuse about this. Ta-ta. Raspberries need pickiing. |
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Mon, Jan 14, 08 at 11:37
I have tiny pores around my mouth that have become clogged. They are not unsightly, but the feel of the little bumps really annoys me. I think I got them from using too much lip balm. Who do I see about getting them cleared up? Do I need a dermatologist or will a good professional facial do the job? |
Follow-Up Postings:
- Posted by scarlett2001 (My Page) on Mon, Jan 14, 08 at 16:29
Try the facial and see. I'm assuming that would be the least expensive choice? If they don't go away then you may need a doctor. |
I would definitely try a good facial, talk with the technician about extracting a few and see how you react. |
- Posted by chinacat_sunflower (My Page) on Fri, Jan 18, 08 at 13:23
if it's actually a waxy buildup from your lip balms (and you've ditched the balms for something with shea butter instead) then a good steaming should go a long way to loosen those plugs...if you're lucky, it will raise them enough that you can literally scrape them lightly with the edge of a spoon, and they'll slough right out. better? a good steamy shower, and then mis-use those biore pore strips, unless you're like me, and have enough of a mustache that you need to wax it, wait two days, and THEN use the pore strips :) |
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slobeck commented on the blog post Will the Chick-fil-A 'kiss-ins' help or hurt?
Hate to say it kids, but I was deep in Queer Nation (and ACT-UP) in San Francisco back in the day and this is EXACTLY the type of shock theater we used. In fact where do you think "We're here, we're queer, get over it" came from? We invaded shopping malls as herds of drag queens. We had kiss-ins and die-ins and the fact is we are here and people have no choice but to get used to it. And until they do we're staying in their face. We don't have to prove that we're more pious and conservative than they are just to be accepted. Furthermore I resent people who weren't on the forefront of radical queer politics back then telling me what we stood for and what our tactics were. This is the closest thing to a QN action I've seen since then.


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Shivers is a populated place located in Simpson County at latitude 31.797 and longitude -89.988.
The elevation is 430 feet. Shivers appears on the Shivers U.S. Geological Survey Map. Simpson County is in the Central Time Zone (UTC -6 hours).
Simpson County: Cities & Towns | ZIP Codes | Schools | Features (airports, churches, hospitals, etc.)
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Data Source - USGS GNIS FID: 677728
BOUNDARY MAPS: Supervisor District 4 | Simpson County
Shivers, MS
(< 0.1 mile) Bush, MS (4.5 miles N) New Hebron, MS (4.5 miles S) Hebron, MS (5.5 miles SSE) Pinola, MS (5.8 miles NNE) |
Gwinville, MS
(6.1 miles ESE) Schley, MS (6.3 miles W) Bridgeport, MS (6.4 miles WNW) Union, MS (8.1 miles NW) Rockport, MS (10 miles W) |
Westville, MS
(5.5 miles NNE) Boggan, MS (6.4 miles E) Cowanville, MS (10.5 miles WSW) Hooker, MS (11.8 miles SSW) Cyclone, MS (12.2 miles ENE) |
Jaynesville, MS
(13.1 miles E) Gum Springs, MS (14.5 miles N) Zion Hill, MS (14.7 miles NE) Pine Lake, MS (15 miles N) |
The Demographic Data for the 1,262 Mississippi cities, towns, counties, ZIP Codes and Census Designated Places (CDPs) profiled in this gazetteer is updated annually. Last Update: July 1, 2014.
The ZIP Code maps and the data regarding the number of residential and business addresses in each ZIP Code are updated four times per year. Last Update: November 1, 2014.
The information on the 40,994 Mississippi Physical, Cultural and Historic Features is updated six times per year. Last Update: December 2, 2014.
The School Attendance Zone Maps for 611 Mississippi public schools are updated four times per year. Last Update: October 6, 2014.


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Posted on: August 25, 2009 at 11:09PM
Try the "For Sale" Pub for some of the best Hungarian goulash in Budapest. It's a small place (ask to be seated upstairs) across the street from the farmer's market, but the food and the service are both excellent. report a problem


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Go Mobile: http://mobile.fosters.com Chamber presents 39th annual golf touney, clambake
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ROCHESTER — The Greater Rochester Chamber of Commerce is pleased to announce that plans are underway for 39th Annual Golf Tournament and Clambake. Underwritten by Waste Management, this popular event will be held on Tuesday, June 4, at the Rochester Country Club. The format for this tournament will be a Scramble that will begin at 9 a.m..
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