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New Year, New Language
As we head into 2003, a lot of people are making New Year's resolutions. Many of these resolutions will last only a few weeks (just go look at all the exercise equipment in the used sports shop in February), but I hope to keep mine this year.
I've read that one way to keep yourself motivated is to tell other people about your resolution, even inviting them to join you. So that's why I'm here. Hopefully, this idea will be worth thinking about. If you decide to join me, great! If not, I'll just pretend that you're going to pester me at some point about how I'm doing. I'm sure it'll all work out in the end.
Earlier this year, I picked up a copy of 'The Pragmatic Programmer' (a great book by Dave Thomas and Andy Hunt). I really liked many of the ideas I read there. One which resonated with me was this:
"Invest Regularly in Your Knowledge Base."
A method they recommended was to learn a new programming language every year. They even set up a wiki and mailing list to help coordinate people who'd like to work together.
The idea behind this goal is that by learning a new language, you learn more abut programming in general. You might find new techniques to bring back to your own favorite languages, or you might find a new favorite language. To really make this effective, you could look into languages outside your normal programming style -- Never done OO programming? Try Smalltalk. Spend all your time with compiled languages? How about really learning a shell.
Last year, the Language of the Year (LotY) group worked together to learn Haskell. I joined the list too late to start with them, and wasn't really interested in Haskell either, so I puttered around learning more about Ruby. This year, I've decided to get serious about things. I started out thinking about two languages I might try my hand at: Objective C and Forth.
I've never been much of a hand with compiled languages, and I've been hearing about Objective C again, so it seemed like it might be a good direction to go in. Programming Ruby gave me an 'Aha!' experience with OO, but it's so dynamic that I think I'd be able to learn a lot from doing OO in a compiled language as well.
On the other hand, Forth seems like it would teach me a lot about very low level programming. It's a language that keeps popping up on my radar screen, but which I've never pursued. This might be a great time to do something about that.
In the end, I decided not to go with either of these languages. Not that I wouldn't learn a lot from either one of them, but I found myself pulled in another direction. Two more tips for 'The Pragmatic Programmer' jumped out at me.
The first tip that caught my eye was:
"Use a Single Editor Well"
Well, I'm a systems administrator by background, so I've gotten used to many different editors. 'vi' (or one of its descendants) will always be there, 'emacs' offers a ton of features, and there are others that (for one reason or another) have been the right tool at one time or another. For day to day use, I've settled into emacs. I know that I only scratch the surface of its feature set, but it seems to fit my style better than anything else.
The second tip that helped push me towards my final decision was:
"Learn a Text Manipulation Language"
I already know enough Perl, awk, and sed (along with the various shell tools for manipulating text) to get along, but I could certainly stand to learn how to make my manipulation of text easier, faster, and better.
With these additional thoughts floating around in my head, I was poised for a blinding flash of the obvious. As I was browsing around a book shelf, I stumbled on a copy of An Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp by Robert J. Chassell -- voila, my LotY.
I snatched up the book, and started to brew a plan. My first thought was to see what other books were out there that might help. There's one from O'Reilly, Writing GNU Emacs Extensions, but it just didn't feel like the right place to start. I've come to agree with Emacs creator Richard M. Stallman that there should be free documentation for free software. Not that proprietary books don't have a place, just that they're a second layer of information. Maybe I'll grab a copy later and see where it takes me. There's also the two volume Emacs Lisp Reference. This looked like overkill for a primer, but will certainly be on my list for later in the year.
With an initial book in hand, I laid out a schedule for myself. I'm going to work through 'An Introduction ...' during January, then start looking at projects. I'm not sure what I'll hack on yet; improvements to the Ruby mode maybe (hmm, refactoring support would be yummy), or maybe a mode to support writing skits and plays (my wife would like that), I might even try my hand at writing an interface to Koha, a free software library system I manage. Working on projects like these would certainly provide a good excuse to dive into the Reference books.
I figure that running through these books and concentrating on some interesting projects will really help me master Emacs Lisp. I don't know yet what kinds of tricks I'll learn this year, or what other benefits I might gain. I'm excited to get started though, and I'm sure that something good will come of it. Who knows, I might even come back later in the year to tell you about it.
What about you? Hopefully, reading this has started some juices flowing for you too. Whether or not Emacs Lisp is the right LotY for you, take a look at the wiki noted above. If you decide to work on a LotY yourself, join the mailing list. If you do decide to work on Emacs Lisp let me know, we can check up on each other. If you decide to work on something else, you can tell me that too -- I'd be happy to ping you about it occasionally.
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-- -pate http://on-ruby.blogspot.com
As Linux continues to play an ever increasing role in corporate data centers and institutions, ensuring the integrity and protection of these systems must be a priority. With 60% of the world's websites and an increasing share of organization's mission-critical workloads running on Linux, failing to stop malware and other advanced threats on Linux can increasingly impact an organization's reputation and bottom line.
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- New Products
- Slow System? iotop Is Your Friend
- 2014 Book Roundup
- Purism Librem 15
- Hats Off to Mozilla
Editorial Advisory Panel
Thank you to our 2014 Editorial Advisors!
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- Steve Marquez
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Public Affairs Director
Susan's tenure with Blue Diamond Growers spans 35 years. During this time she has served as the lead spokesperson for the cooperative and led corporate communications. Susan also is responsible for the company's government affairs as the liaison with state and federal regulators, government agencies, legislature and congress.
Prior to joining Blue Diamond, Susan taught high school French, English and journalism and served as a year round high school administrator.
Susan holds a Bachelor's degree in French, English and journalism and a Master's Degree in Secondary Education, both from Sacramento State University. Susan has a Lifetime Secondary Teaching and Administrative Credential from the State of California.
Which Blue Diamond product "Gets Your Good Going?"
I begin each day with Blue Diamond Almond Milk in my coffee. In the evening I enjoy Dry Roasted Unsalted Almonds, especially when the Giants or 49ers are playing!

subset: commoncrawl


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About me
My name is Emma and I'm currently a researcher in the Statistical Cybermetrics Research Group at the University of Wolverhampton. My background is in art and information science, and from this I have developed a strong research interest in visual communication and the creation and dissemination of digital images. I am particularly interested in the changing role of photography within society and in the growth of user generated content such as digital images on social networking sites.I studied Art at college, and went on to complete my first degree in Publishing at Loughborough University. I am now currently studying for a PhD at Wolverhampton University, which looks at image tagging on Flickr. I want to compare people's motivations for tagging images with their actual tagging practices, in order to shed more light on the emerging tagging phenomenon.
My other research interests include: social media; electronic publishing; image classification; tagging; folksonomy; visual culture; photography; and the aesthetics and philosophy of art.


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Buy It, Steal It, Skip It: Music Releases for the Week of October 14
Lucinda Williams Little Honey (Lost Highway)
The Grammy-award winning singer songwriter is back with her ninth studio album. It's not all songs of bitter love and melancholy skies. There's a tinge of happiness in her voice this time around—especially on "Heaven Blues," a song where she plays the slide guitar and sings, "Going to make it right, up in heaven." It's not religious, not an elegy, just an earnest track sung with the elegant rasp Lucinda is known for.
Verdict: Buy it
Secret Machines Secret Machines (TSM Recordings)
The third album from this trio of New York transplants has the same epic, atmospheric sound as the first two—loud, polyphonic keyboards layered with shoegazey guitars. But whereas the first two records were slower and reflective, this eponymous album sounds like the Flaming Lips and Pink Floyd on an eight-song bender.
Verdict: Steal it
Keane Perfect Symmetry (Island)
Coldplay is depressing enough. A band emulating Coldplay with a pathetic danceable twist is painful. Keane is pandering to the high school girl set on "Spiralling," with happy shouting when lead singer Tom Chaplin is "waiting for my moment to come, waiting for the movie to begin." There's plenty more predictable falsetto (and overproduced pianos) on "The Lovers are Losing," a failed attempt at creating the sort of despondent ballad popularized by Joy Division and the Smiths.
Verdict: Skip it


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6 Of The Most Devastating Team USA Losses In History
You win some and you lose some, but these losses hurt and they hurt bad. And let's be honest, Sunday's match against Portugal felt like a defeat …
5 Things Blackhawks Fans Are Saying About Thrilling Game 7 Loss
Well, the stage for the Lord Stanley Cup Playoffs is set. The first puck will drop at the Staples Center in Los Angeles on Wednesday where the Kings will take on the New York Rangers. As you might imagine there are dozens of ecstatic fans of both teams here at CBS Local Sports National headquarters. We do, however, have one resident hardcore Chicago Blackhawks fan; Field Operations Manager Stan Pillman who has a few things to say about last night's loss. Here are the top five things Blackhawks fans are saying about last night's thrilling Game 7 loss, according to Stan.
10 Sports Pilgrimages Every Guy Should Make Once In His Life
Which sports events are worth planning a vacation around? Check out these ten sports happenings every guy should make a trip for.
Podcast: The Steve Sandmeyer Show For Thursday, September 19th
With Steve out on vacation, Bill Swartz and Art Thiel discuss the passing of Mariners owner Hiroshi Yamauchi with The News Tribune's Ryan Divish. Plus, a season preview of Thunderbirds Hockey with Head Coach Steve Konowalchuk […]
Game 2 Preview: Bruins Vs. Penguins
The Pittsburgh Penguins will look to even up the Eastern Conference Finals when they take the ice for Game 2 tonight against the Boston Bruins.
Round 3 Preview: Bruins Vs. Penguins
The Pittsburgh Penguins are halfway to the ultimate goal of hoisting the Stanley Cup, but before they get to that point, they have to go through the Boston Bruins.
Pens Take 3-1 Series Lead With 7-3 Rout Of Sens In Game 4
Jarome Iginla and James Neal each scored twice and the Pittsburgh Penguins routed the Ottawa Senators 7-3 on Wednesday night to take a 3-1 lead in the Eastern Conference semifinal series.
TTYM: Must-See Video – Golf Boys Rap And Worst Hockey Fight Ever?
It's video round-up week in That Thing You Missed – from what may possibly be the worst hockey fight in the history of the sport to a temper tantrum the likes of which I have […]
ND School Investigating Fans In KKK-Style Hoods
A North Dakota high school principal says appropriate action is being taken after three students briefly donned Ku Klux Klan-style white robes and hoods Friday night during a state hockey semifinal game.
Seattle Thunderbirds' Foundation Raffling Custom Built Playhouse
The Thunderbird Community Sports Foundation is offering you a chance to take home a custom built kids' playhouse! By purchasing a $5 raffle ticket on the ShoWare Center concourse, you have a chance to win the playhouse, built by Schneider Family Homes.


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The Veneno's exterior is designed for optimum aerodynamics, according to Lamborghini. The front end, for instance, is designed to work as a large aerodynamic wing, to keep the car pinned to the earth during high-speed driving.
The Veneno has the same scissor-opening doors as the less expensive Aventador.
NEXT: Forza Italia!


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Document Type Master's Dissertation Author Barnard, Pieter Hendrik firstname.lastname@example.com URN etd-06072005-073940 Document Title 'n Praktiese teologiese ondersoek na spiritualiteitstipes in eredienste in die Ring van die Paarl(Afrikaans) Degree MA (Theology) Department Practical Theology Supervisor
Advisor Name Title Prof C J A Vos Co-Supervisor Dr F J Clasen Supervisor Keywords
- Ring van die Paarl
- spiritualiteitstipes
Date 2004-10-08 Availability unrestricted Abstract This study is based on the presumption that more than one type of Spirituality prevails amongst members of the Dutch Reformed Church in the Circuit of Paarl. From conversations with colleagues, theological articles and books, own experience of services as liturgist and Myers and Briggs personality profiles, it is evident that there is a confusion regarding the identification and management of the various types of Spirituality. In the Paarl Valley, deep rooted in the Afrikaans Culture and Tradition , as in my own congregation the Dutch Reformed Church Suider-Paarl at the foot of the Afrikaaans Language Monument, there is a search for and a need of a responsible rejuvenation regarding church services.The surrounding contexts and influences can never be removed from certain spiritual types of which members have a deep need. My friends, family and congregation members who were devoted members of the Dutch Reformed Church, have either left the church completely or found a home with other denominations with other types of Spirituality.
As a young minister I find it disturbing that large numbers of my age group of 20-35 years have left the Dutch Reformed Church. Since 1996 the Paarl Circuit has lost 4000 members, notwithstanding the fact that the Paarl is regarded as a demographic point of growth in the Western Cape. In surrounding renascence congregations outside the reformed creed, the services are filled with members who were raised within the reformed creed. Post-modern man apparently does not pay attention to theological differences between churches, but preferably respond to any congregation with a certain type of approach and Spirituality.
If this is the case, it bodes no well for the Dutch Reformed Church. It will inevitably lead to the impoverishment of services and religious communication. It could also lead to the partial disfunctioning of the services and the homily. Be it true that only one type of spirituality is provided for, with occasional variations, one wonders what the reason is for this. Why do Dutch Reformed ministers cling to a specific Spirituality? Is it because they are satisfied with the content of the "Message", but the atmosphere of Spirituality that exists during the service doesn't matter much? Does it perhaps demand too much work and preparation?
It is obvious that a problem exists that must be taken into account. The crux of the research can be summarized as follows:
- --- There is a supposition that a problem exists regarding the Spirituality types prevalent in the Dutch Reformed Church, especially in the Paarl Circuit and the personal preference of the members for a specific Spirituality. (Chapter 1)
- --- A basic theory concerning Spirituality types must be formulated. (Chapter 2)
- --- The Spirituality types in the Paarl Circuit must be empirically researched. (Chapter 3)
- --- An adjusted practice theory must be proposed which can lead to an adjusted ministry practice. (Chapter 4)
From the above discussion it is clear that the point of departure in this changed context of the essence of ecclesiasticism, but more specifically the divine service, is confronted by a new challenge. Members are in search of a more effective communication of the Gospel in the context in which the church finds itself today, but, more specifically so, as it appears in the context of the Paarl Circuit.
Copyright 2004, University of Pretoria. All rights reserved. The copyright in this work vests in the University of Pretoria. No part of this work may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, without the prior written permission of the University of Pretoria.
Please cite as follows:
Barnard, PH 2004, 'n Praktiese teologiese ondersoek na spiritualiteitstipes in eredienste in die Ring van die Paarl(Afrikaans), MA(Theol) dissertation, University of Pretoria, Pretoria, viewed yymmdd < http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/available/etd-06072005-073940 / >
Filename Size Approximate Download Time (Hours:Minutes:Seconds)
28.8 Modem 56K Modem ISDN (64 Kb) ISDN (128 Kb) Higher-speed Access dissertation.pdf 204.79 Kb 00:00:56 00:00:29 00:00:25 00:00:12 00:00:01


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Health Science Campus
University of Toledo Medical Center
1st Floor, Room # 1217Phone: 419.383.3428
Fax: 419.383.6422 email@example.com
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Tuition plus $1,500 for room and board
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Fully furnished apartment with utilities (including internet access)
PGY 4 - tuition to review course plus five days time to attend (expenses met by resident)
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PGY 5 - expenses to attend RSNA plus five days time (plus two days if held in Florida); limit $900.
Senior authored paper presentation - expense to meeting covered and three days time.
Professional Liability Insurance
Health and Dental Insurance
Provided for residents and dependents
For more detailed information on the benefit package visit Human Resources.


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What are fall's must-see movies? Debate it here
Yes, The Incredibles is, well, pretty incredible. But what are the other movies you should see this season? Here's the shortlist, according to Entertainment Weekly: the biopics Finding Neverland and Kinsey, the poignant buddy movie Sideways, the wartime romance A Very Long Engagement, the martial-arts film House of Flying Daggers, and Kevin Bacon's disturbing profile of a pedophile, The Woodsman.
Read EW's recommendations, then tell us the movies you're looking forward to seeing before New Year's. Of all the films you saw in 2004, which have you liked the best? Who turned in Oscar-worthy performances? What films were underrated or, for that matter, overrated? Talk about it here.


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Product Description
30 round magazine for the A-15. USA made, Magpul followers, military issue, aircraft gray aluminum, with silicon springs.Attention: High capacity magazines cannot be sold to the following states: California, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey and New York.
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Here's your chance to share your opinion on this item with the world! Your feedback may be very valuable to other customers in making a purchasing decision. We appreciate your input and hope you will be a regular part of our community. Note that all reviews are subject to our Terms and Conditions. All reviews are moderated and will not appear until reviewed by our company.
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Truth be told, I generally don't make New Year's resolutions. Not because I'm perfect. Far from it really. But because I make resolutions all year long. Some stick. Most, less so. But I chip away and I try.
But since it is the season and I've been feeling resolution-y as it were, I'll lay a few out here. This year I resolve to:
To care, but not too much. It's natural to care about performance, especially when you've been training hard and making sacrifices. If you have sponsors, you want to do them proud and "earn your keep" and all that. But I personally don't want to slip into that space where you care so much, it's no longer fun. I've been there. And frankly, it's a pretty nonproductive place to be. Seems the more I really care, the worse I do, likely because I'm wasting precious energy really caring beyond reason. I've been doing a pretty good job of this one this year. Makes me happy when I can achieve that state of mind. So I'm going to keep working to stay there.
To respect my rest. My friend Mike pointed me to a really great article on Georgia Gould and how she clawed her way back out of the hole she had dug herself into this year. It involved a Twitter heckling campaign to remind her to take some things less seriously (see To care, but not too much) and getting some much needed rest. Too many of us are so afraid of "losing fitness" with time off, that we lose fitness because we never take time off. It would be a wonderful world if we could stay at peak fitness year 'round, but fact is, we can't. Your body (and mental state) break down and need to recover so you can come back stronger. Even a week now and then to recharge, even in—GASP—the racing season can do you wonders.
I'm okay at taking rest, but I could be better. Sometimes I just don't want to pass up a race or a ride, even if I'm completely torched. That's kind of dumb and definitely counterproductive.
To enjoy it. I'm coming off of what has been my best, and most enjoyable, 'cross seasons to date. These two things are not unrelated. This year, instead of getting all balled up about how I was going to finish before I even started, I made it a point to focus on why I was on the line to begin with—because I love it. 'Cross courses are fun. I really enjoy weaving through chicanes, jumping barriers, negotiating tricky technical terrain, and the camaraderie of the sport. I kept that front and center in my mind, so even when I got nervous, I never got miserable. And hey, I had a lot of fun.
I'll be racing less in 2012 (read: regeneration). But I want to enjoy it even more. That means reminding myself why I'm racing my mountain bike. I love mountain biking.
To seek adventure. I got into all this riding and racing because of the adventure aspect. Traveling to new places, riding different terrain, meeting new people is all the good stuff in life. My family and I have made some amazing memories in the process. As we roll into the new year, I resolve to make many, many more.


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Summer Flash Sales
Want a quick summer getaway? Some of the best values are available for a limited time only at "flash sale" sites. The booking engine tablethotels.com now has a private sale option, where rooms at partner hotels—which might not discount otherwise—are auctioned off on a weekly basis. At press time, we found a deluxe room at J.K. Place, in Florence, for $300—more than $130 off the rack rate. Meanwhile, auction site luxurylink.com offers travelers the chance to bid on mystery properties—only the locations are disclosed—with bids starting at $1 per stay.


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Patients with asthma should get an annual flu vaccine, and they should receive the vaccination against pneumococcal pneumonia at least once. [For more information, see In-Depth Report #94: Colds and influenza.]
Patients with asthma and chronic allergic rhinitis may need to take medications daily. Patients with severe seasonal allergies may need to start medications a few weeks before the pollen season, and to continue medicine...
Read moreChances are you've looked at the possibility of treating your asthma with some kind of natural, alternative or complementary therapy at... Read more »
It's clear where you can find the most reliable information on alternative therapies. But what this resource is called can be a puzzle.... Read more »
People who have chronic illnesses often search for what they see as more natural alternatives to asthma medication treatment. It's not that... Read more »
If you are taking or considering any herbs or dietary supplements for diabetes or one of its related conditions (like high cholesterol) you... Read more »
No amount of medicines can cure high blood pressure but it can get rid of the symptoms as well as restore the normal blood pressure level.... Read more »
Read the full text of I'm Not Just Sick, I'm Bugged and leave a comment! See all of Sara's Comics Visit the Single Gal's Guide to Rheumatoid... Read more »
My first experience with homeopathy took place almost twenty years ago when I walked into the chemist's shop off a busy street in London. I was... Read more »
Traditionally, ADHD is treated with a combination of medication and behavioral therapy. Alternative treatments are any other treatments that claim to... Read more »


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Brandnew LC-Wide
Lightmeter seems to be working. LG refunded my LC-Wide because the Lightmeter was not working properly.
This photo was shot on film. Taken by zark with a Lomo LC-Wide (available in our Online Shop) loaded with Rossmann 400 film in hannover, Germany. These tags describe this photo: schnee, snow, gardens, gärten, herrenhäuser, hannover, zark, 2013, january, januar, winter, 35mm, 400iso, rossmann, lc-w, and lc-wide. Date: 2013-02. This photo can also be found in the album 2013_01_28 : LC-Wide.Please login to get more out of this site
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We Got Next: Portland Trail Blazers Submit Bid to Host Future All-Star Game
The Portland Trail Blazers have never hosted All-Star Weekend. In fact, they're one of only a handful of current NBA cities yet to host the annual event. That's a shame because, as any frothy-mouthed local will tell you, Rip City offers so many unique experiences that they're almost impossible to catalogue.
Undaunted by that near-Himalayan task, that's precisely what we'll aim to accomplish here. Read More »


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Big news...in August of 2013 DSI merged with 5 other high-end home technology integrators, and the new company is called VIA. For new blog posts, visit us at viahome.com/blog. Be sure to bookmark our new site and subscribe to the blog by entering your email in the box on the right side of the page.
VIA is the home technology provider for today's sophisticated, luxury homeowner. VIA's clients enjoy state-of-the-art home technology including home theater, home automation, IT networks, and custom audio video solutions that integrate elegantly or disappear entirely into the home's design. As the nation's largest and most-awarded home technology integration firm, VIA is uniquely qualified to provide its clients with an intuitive user experience, reliability, and concierge-level service. Visit http://viahome.com to learn more.
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What good is the world's best home theater if you can't operate it? The answer is obvious, but it is amazing to me that with so many so-called "expert" home theater installation companies out there, that still so many of them are needlessly complicated to operate. For these unfortunate clients, they may need their tech-savvy teenagers or an audio video geek buddy operate their fancy, overly-complicated "universal remote control" for them. It shouldn't be this way...scroll down to the two videos below for examples of home theater control done right.Fortunately, there are many great remote controls on the market that can easily control your home cinema system, as long as they are programmed correctly. Some of the popular mid-to-high end control options are Crestron, AMX, Control4, and Savant. All four of these brands will also let you use your Apple iPhone, iPod Touch, or iPad as a touchscreen control, too, but there are some limitations of using these as your primary remote control.We've long been fans of Crestron touchscreens, they are very customizable to exactly what the client wants, and reliable, too. Beyond controlling a home theater or media room, Crestron, AMX, Control4, and Savant control systems serve as the backbone of a home automation system. DSI has won a lot of raving fans (and even a few awards from Crestron themselves) for making home theaters, media rooms, and home automation systems easy to use. Here is how we do it:
So...do you want to see a Crestron system in action?? The two videos below highlight two different touchscreens; the first shows a large 15" model built-into a motorized console that pops-out between two of the Fortress Seating home theater seats. The second video shows home cinema control with a wireless Crestron TPS-6X touchscreen. As you will see, both touchscreens control the audio video sources, the theater's Crestron lighting system, and even a motorized acoustic door. Also controlled (but not shown in the video) is climate and security camera control. This custom screening room also features a 4-way automatic masking screen and the ability to view of to four images simultaneously, visit DSI's home theater videos page to view by clicking here > home theater videosIf you'd like to see more Crestron controls, please see this Crestron's user interface page : http://www.crestron.com/products/controllers/ For help with designing your own custom home theater, media room, or home automation system, give us a call at 866-692-8489. We have locations in Los Angeles and Santa Barbara, with an interactive showroom in West Hollywood where you can play with all of this technology firsthand. For a free home theater "Top Tips" whitepaper, click the orange box at the left.
This blog article written by Josh Christian. Follow us on Twitter @DSI_Audio_Video


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The success of Brazilian Adventure set Fleming on a career as an international journalist and travel writer. In 1934, he would publish One's Company, an account of his travels to China; News from Tartary, another book of his Asian travels, followed in 1936. He wrote reams of correspondence for the Times and other journals, and he turned to history later in life. But Brazilian Adventure, though his first book, remains his best. In it, he took a genre that was often stultifying and pedantic and infused it with grace and comedic understatement.
After Fleming came a flurry of better-written travel books. Evelyn Waugh, who gave Brazilian Adventure a positive if qualified review in the Spectator ("Mr. Fleming has a really exciting story to tell, but he almost spoils it by going to the extreme limits of deprecation in his anxiety to avoid the pretentious"), would soon publish his humorous account of his travels in Ethiopia. Robert Byron's The Road to Oxiana would follow, too, as would Graham Greene's Journey Without Maps and numerous other first-class works.
The critic Paul Fussell once described the 1920s and 1930s as a time when "a generation of bright young travelers set off from the British Isles to register anew, with all the cockiness of youth, the oddity and exoticism of the world outside." In his day, Fleming was the most prominent and most influential of this pack. By propelling travel writing out of the dregs of romanticism and landing it firmly in the modern era, he offered a new way to approach the wider world. Brazilian Adventure should be relished for its drollery and anticlimactic charm. But it is also a document of the time when the era of exploration slid into the era of irony; when the world became smaller and somewhat less new, and bemusement—not amazement—became the standard way to meet it.


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Sam. I can't help but think that the shoulder pain could be not RR. Anything else that you feel besides pain in the shoulder?
Oh and thanks Nick for the house idea on the Beans Jacket. I got mine ordered and didn't even have to enter it into the budget since I still have house cards from last years Gift card sale.
If you want to never run, never start because once you do you'll never stop.
Sub 90 HM group on strava: http://www.strava.com/clubs/sub90HM
5k 19:51 19:29 19:19 19:05 - 10k 40:07 40:03 39:55 - HM 1:28:06 1:27:38 - FM 3:30:07 3:21:19 3:13:19
Thanks for kind words sub 3:20 people!
Special thanks to SamP, Dad, Ilana and OMR . I don't think I am recovered still, not mentally anyway .
OMR - yes, it's going to end at some point, but until it doesn't, I will try to enjoy it .
If you have 5-10 minutes of spare time, you can check my "stream of consciousness" (a-la RR) going to this link:
Just a quick anecdote: Got on the mistress this morning intending to do 4-5 before work (I'm still getting the hang of 4:45 wake ups) and while I was running I got a text that school was cancelled due to 14" of snow so I just kept going until the kids woke up which gave me just over 7. Yesterday we had a picnic outside in our bare feet and t-shirts. This is what it's like when you live in the northeast.
Upcoming races: Syracuse Half Marathon in March. Toronto full in May. Green Lakes Ultra 50K in August. Chicago FM in October.
Congrats calbearsfan on keeping the PR streak alive. I enjoyed reading the RR.
never run-I don't know if I believe in the bad juju, but in any case with NYC 2012 you are safe. Blister problems suck.
SP-hope the shoulder pain subsides. I hate when non-running pain intrudes on running. Hopefully things ease up at work soon and time away from the mouse will help.
McBen-nice running.
OMR-good mistress running yesterday. I hear you about needing a little variety.
Ilana-nice compliment from DH/SU/WTF. Sounds like you had a valuable run in terms of figuring out your current fitness. Good luck with the next few days and here's hoping the conditions are good.
Nick-nice boat. Hope the winds don't slow your MLR down too much today.
Hey to everyone else. 9.2 @ 8:24 for me this morning. Hip still felt good and my legs are feeling stronger. The run felt pretty easy and my HR was significantly lower than a similar run last week when my hip was still bothering me. It was quite windy out though with a cold front blowing through. Should be nice and cool running weather tomorrow morning.
turtleboy-crazy weather. Glad you got some good mistress miles in.
PRs: 5k 19:23, 10k 39:39, HM 1:36:11
Sam - yeah, I would tend to think it's long hours in front of a screen with a mouse and keyboard. Do you swap the mouse around at all? Can you get up and stretch every hour and a half or so?
never - hah, I didn't get the shirt since I didn't actually go. And aren't you glad it's snowing on your rest day?
OMR - I hope you can get outside again soon!
McBen - that photo was taken in the inner Staniel Cay anchorage, in the Bahamas (our favorite place to be on a sailboat). BTW if you want some dream fodder, our web host for our travel journals when we lived aboard is gone but the pages are still on the Wayback Machine (I am busily copying them back to my local computer with plans to put them back up on a new web host) and you can find them at http://web.archive.org/web/200...cybox.com/index.html
I've decided to take a rest day to help encourage my legs to race faster on Saturday!
10 1:12:59 (2014) 13.1 1:35:55 (2013) 26.2 3:23:31 (2013)
bloggy stuff at http://ilanarama.dreamwidth.org
McBen -- oooh, had to Google that, nice setup! Boat came out just fine, one of the guide poles on the trailer took the brunt of the weight on one side and my FILs tractor held up the other. Nice double and I always, and I mean always, struggle with those progression runs
Never - did you try using the code I posted, it should be good for another day or so. You can also use runblog10 at runningwarehouse for 10% if you didn't know that already. I also wear my 2012 NYC shirt, mainly because it's orange....
Sam - I would cancel the race and call a doctor, immediately!
Next page .....
McB - did it look like this..
"But the from way I see it, you can either run from it, or... learn from it." - Rafiki
Never - hah, maybe I should start reading all the posts before I reply....cool on the jacket and I thought I was the only one that stocked up on those GCs! I'm down to my last two $25 though, and will be spending one of those in a few mins. I did get a singlet, shorts and s/s shirt for the April race with them
Turtle - try the southeast, 76 yesterday and the high was at midnight when it was 56, currently midday temps in the 40's..
Justin - continued good news on the hip, and it sounds like the fitness is really coming around
ilana - rest days always make me faster! I'm going to check those pics out!
Well the weather people were right for a change....windy as all get out this morning, literally felt like I was standing still when it really got going (guessing 40ish mph). Got up a little late so instead of 16 got in 14.5 @ 7:43 with 10 MP ME miles. I knew there was no way I was going to hit pace with those winds so just ran by effort, paces ranged from 7:05-7:38 and by the end I was beat! Planning on super slow tomorrow.
SP: I get pain in my right shoulder sometimes too and have never figured out the exact cause. It might be work-related, but it could also be from sleeping on my side. I'd say it's better and less-frequent now. Again, I'm not sure exactly why but I've worked my lats more, foam-rolled my lats (which is not where the pain is but I can feel the pain when I roll them) and will lift my arm over my head if I notice any of the tightness coming on while running. Obviously YMMV if your pain and my pain aren't the same.
2014: 10k: ~46:00 43:08 15k: 1:07:29 1:04:45 Marathon: 3:26:14 3:21:23 White River 50M: 10:25:27 9:27:42 UTMB: 37:37:46
Coming up in 2015: Orcas Island 50k 2/7, Patriot's Day 4/20, Miwok 100k 5/2, Sun Mountain 50 5/16, Western States 100 6/27
Thanks Sam. Certainly I am not planning on trying for the Moose Mug in Birobidzhan. Because of simple math - my last marathon pace is 6:37. To get Moose Mug I will need to run 6:24-6:25 pace in 5 weeks. In my opinion it just doesn't make sense, I would like to improve on my results and get to the point where it will be feasible to do. Probably, by the end of the year, maybe @ my local race, CIM, if everything goes well.
Sam - it sounds like a knot/trigger point I get in my right shoulder from stress and being hunched at a desk too long. I get mine in the shoulderblade though.
Good workout for me today. I haven't done much with any real pace to it yet this year but today I ran 7 with 5@7:39 avg and some decent hills in there. It felt pretty comfortable throughout with average HR at 155 BPM.
New shoes came so I will use both pairs on the next two runs - 4 and 5 miles - to make sure they fit well and have no issues.
I hope everyone had a good run today.
5K: 19:30 (6/14) | 13.1: 1:29:11 (8/14) | 26.2: 3:17:18 (10/14)Up Next: Increase mileage
Ilana - Nice boat, and adventure. I love it when yachts have home ports in places like Durango. Your DH knows what to say. You should keep him.OMR - Touching those aerobic zones? Sounds a little racy.Nick - Nice boat. Im sure the color has nothing to do with it.Puto - Nice RR for a not-so-nice race. Yeah, heat like they said, but that might not be the whole story. Two approches come to mind for Dublin: You could treat it as a fun tour of a nice old city at 9:00 or so, with no misery. If you don't do that and want to race it, then post a pace thread first with Ilana's template.Sam - I went through the whole early-stage wrist RSI thing a few years ago, and my employer brought in an ergonomicist to fix me up while everyone watched and learned. Apart from the whole posture/height/position thing, she had me change mouse hands for a few weeks. I had to configure it to swap the left and right buttons. It worked a treat, and I have had no trouble since.Cal - Congrats, and a fun RR. So when are you going to stop sandbagging and get a real PR?Justin - Yay hip!Nick - It's windy here too.I haven't been on here for a few days, so here, belatedly, is my week.Mon - 7 Easy @9:09 (recovering from 30-mile weekend)Tue - Track - 3 x 2400 in 10:37, 10:44, 10:42 (skipped the 4th one)Wed - 4 Recovery @9:40 (yup)Thu - URD - OversleptFri - 13 with 8@MP-ish (OK, 7:29)Sat - 15 mile group run (marking) @8:52, flat trails.Sun - 12 Easy hills @9:05
58 for the week, in 6 days
Upcoming: Staying local, Kaiser half, Oakland full, San Francisco full.
I know the garmin says 22:53 but these watches cannot to be trusted. maybe I should add a few minutes per hour just to make sure.
Cal - Congrats, and a fun RR. So when are you going to stop sandbagging and get a real PR?
Ha-ha-ha... Sandbagging... That a nice one. I hope I can recover partially by the end of this week from that sandbagging effort...
Sam - uh? Time for a Guinness? that's all I got.
speaking of stouts, Left Hand just arrived in Maryland ('bout time!). I bought a few to celebrate the occasion. Although I feel like I've had their milk stout before because I used their grain bill to make mine.
I front-loaded this week, 9.25 on monday, 10 yesterday on the muddy and slightly icy trails, and 4+8 today. Going to cut back the next two days and race on Saturday morning. Did this same small race last year (in memory of a former teammate and classmate who passed) and did well, place-wise. I think the high school kids are going to be there this year, so don't look for a repeat...
edit: and managed to hit 70 for the past 7 days. So I have that going for me
Sub 4:30 50k, still lazy
Hello all
DW visiting this week so preoccupied
did another 20 last Saturday, 7 monday and 7 today, holding up.
Sam Rhomboid pain
Excellent on both!
- rovatti
PJ - yay Lefthand, a Colorado brewery! Too bad you don't get any of my local (Durango) beers in Maryland (have you seen www.seekabrew.com?) but we only have one that distributes out of state (Ska).
Jim - you bet I'm keeping him! And, thanks - it was a really amazing part of my life.
mcneil - I just bought new shoes, too. (Mizuno Sayonaras, for the curious. I like the Elixir which is now discontinued, and this is its successor.)
dls - yay wifelet!
Wine. Mmm.
Max - I forgot that you have Chuckanut BEFORE Paris. You're a Maniac! How are you feeling?
Something clever - Good luck on the race this weekend!
rlk - Nice week but I agree, you should've run that last .6.
Dad - Is it a game time decision whether to go all out at Shamrock or have you already committed?
ilana - good luck this weekend on getting at least a course PR. Hopefully the day off will help. Is spousal unit going to cheer you on?
OMR - Feeling all recovered from NAPA?
McBen - At least you were able to do your long run outside.
Sam P - If you're not prone to speed injuries, race that 5K. It should give you more confidence going into Paris.
Jon - I can't really do much of a beard, just some grayish stubble. New pic was from the recent 1/2. Nice LR and week for you!
Nick - what would you use your "dream boat"for? Nice effort today in the wind!
KK - glad you're getting back out there. Run safe!
Justin - Glad your HF issues seem to be about gone. I've kind of resigned myself to there always being some discomfort there. I just don't want to badly strain it again.
Cal Bears - Awesome RR. Got me even more motivated than I already am.
Pepper - what race this weekend? good luck!
Was going to take a day off today but ran an easy 4 instead. Blame Cal for his motivating RR.
PR's 5k 20:39 (03/14) - 10k 42:04 (06/14) - 1/2 1:30:30 (03/14) - Marathon 3:26:00 (Eugene 2014)
Upcoming races - That east coast marathon in April again.
Thanks everyone, I appreciate the deconstruction of my race. I appreciate learning that it was something out of my hands (heat). Perhaps next time I'll pop a salt tab or two and see how it works out.
JimE, I'm going to easy 9:00 run Dublin, but my next race will probably be Carlsbad in January (marathon: I have a 5K on Sunday). I will have to search out and find out more about Ilana's template- first I've heard of it.
Thanks again everyone, really appreciate the sage insight!
5K 21:21, 10K 45:59, HM 1:42:59, FM 4:45:56 (choked). I actually have 3 HMs under 1:45 now :-)
Quick drive by. Work is still crazy.
TB: I love snow days.
Justin: Interesting how much harder a pain/injury can make a run, and that it's measurable in HR.
Ilana: What is a rest day?
SP: I mentioned this before, but if you want some real fun, foam roll your lats.
Nick: Stiff winds. Nice job. Sometimes I like being out on those wild days.
Cal: To me a MooseMug is one of those mythical things, like an Olympic Trials qualifier or a unicorn.
Scot: New shoes! Orange??? Enquiring Nicks want to know.
Jim: I'd like to know your secret to sleeping. My chance of oversleeping is about 0, undersleeping about 80%.
PJ: Good luck with your race. Maybe the high school kids will oversleep like DS2 does.
GPops: Yo back at ya.
Dls: Surprised you are here if DW is there.
Dave: Nice new pic. Feeling good.
Hey to everyone and especially to folks on previous pages I didn't look at.
7 w 3x1M at MP/effort today. First faster effort since Napa, to see if I could. Went ok. My watchband is still broken so everything is by feel now. After the third try with Garmin they finally clarified that I have to attach proof of purchase to my email and THEN they'll give me all the info to get a repair going. DW needs a new watch - thinking of the Forerunner 10 and at this rate I may end up pacing my friend at Paris with her watch.
smax - Foam rolling is not part of my routine. What I like about running is the running part and that's it, period. By doing planks and stretching I feel that I am already compromising a lot. Don't even bother, I will call myself stupid on this one. But it is what it is.
Differently from your pain, I cannot force mine to appear. It only happens when running (and not that often).
climberdave - I am not concerned about injuries and/or recovery. My main concern was more like peaking and taper efficiency. Either way I still have time do decide but as of today I am inclined to doing it.
dlsmd - It is not rhomboid pain I feel. Pain comes from one of the muscles/tendons on top of the rhomboid muscle, closer to the shoulder itself. Sorry for my poor pain-describing skills.
PJ - good luck saturday
Jim - I hear you. I used to have terrible posture from bad seating habits. I think I have fixed that and running actually helped with that. Will try using the mouse with the other hand too. But most importantly I finished the paper I was working on so I can relax a bit and work less. Woohoo for me.
CBF - So what you are saying is: last marathon pace was 6:37. Why go to 6:25 at once if you can *sandbag* and run the next in 6:36, right? And the one after in 6:35. And the one after... 6:34 6:33 6:32 ... ...
nick - I called my doctor yesterday. First name Al, family name Cohol. Nice guy. Irish accent, hard to grasp though.
Hey everyone else!
Max - I have a Garmin 210 you can borrow if you'd like until you're Garmin issue is fixed. It has a crack on the face but still works perfectly and reading the display is not a problem. (Unless you wear it in heavy rain). I just bought a 610. Let me know.
SamP - you've got it! As I found out it's called - "Sergey Bubka"-ing... . It also would show total control over my pace up to the second... . It's also a constant, long-term motivation... In any case, if I want to get that Moose Mug this year, I have to shave 12 seconds off the pace within just 3 races.
seattlemax-yeah, sometimes you don't realize how much an injury is affecting your pace and effort level until it is gone. Nice work with the 7. Hope you can resolve the garmin issue shortly.
dave-nice 4. Hopefully your residual discomfort will eventually leave.
ilana-mmmmm wine.
dlsmd-good to see everything is holding up.
PJ-mmmm always loved the Left Hand Milk milk stout. I brewed a milk stout that basically used their recipe with some additions a year or two ago. Turned out pretty good. Good luck with the race Saturday and nice work hitting 70.
Jim-nice week.
mcneilscot-nice speedy 7. exciting to get the new shoes.
nick-nice 14.5. Good knowing your limitations with the wind.
SP-mmm guinness
Hey to everyone else. 12.3 @ 8:19 for me in 45 degree weather while the sun rose this morning. Hip still behaving and was a very comfortable pace, comparable to yesterday. I love running in these temps.
13 degrees tonight with 25 mph winds
just thought you'd want to know
Sam - nice Guiness there
Ilana - wine is good.
Pops - HII
Nick - that sounds awful. I become a big baby about weather conditions around march, when I am officially over winter.
Justin - glad the hip is doing better.
Dave - way to go doing an unscheduled run.
Smax - I wanted to get the Forerunner 10 to be cheap but when my Garmin 610 died (ish? - it kind of came back to life?) I caved and got the 610 again. I hate learning new technology and I liked being able to see everything I could on the 610.
Ended up running a super short run after work/meeting/errands on Tuesday night.. 8.1 yesterday at still faster pace.. I slowed it down a little because my legs finally felt tired but the low mileage is still making paces a bit faster. Going to try for 6ish after work and a hearing today and then I have an impromptu wedding to attend.... IT band held up ok.. I'm still trying to manage it and wait for a completely pain free week before I bump up mileage past 40.
PRs: 5K: 22:10, HM: 1:32:59, FM: 3:21
I'm all in. Just trying to figure out how to handle wind.
CBF ~ Enjoyed the RR.
dls ~ Enjoy the visit. Good running too.
McBen ~ We got down to 19, but gusts exceeded 50mph. Lost power for half the night.
SamP ~ Your doc's parents a) didn't think or b) didn't want him.
ilana ~ How did you run on the boat? Nice comment from your roomie. At work a week or two ago I got "you're making the rest of us look bad." Good for the ego! Good luck in your HM.
Max & Hat ~ Good luck in your, gulp, 50Ks.
PJ ~ Nice 70. And good luck Saturday.
Hey to everyone else.
A 16 y/o XC Runner stuck in a 51 y/o body.
Dad: NWS is showing winds in that area over the next several days, except for Sat night and Sun. You can't say it because it will jinx you, but maybe you'll get lucky.
calbears - finally had the chance to read your RR. a) now I finally know what "moose mug" is (just curious, is there a female version? just doing some math... not sure if i could ever get it )
Congrats on an amazing race and keeping the PR streak alive!!! You had me on my toes in the mile 21-24 segment. But sounds like you had an amazing finish despite the heat. And yep can totally relate - when you feel like you're flying and your form is great and you're driving hard and all, and then it turns out you look like a flailing yogger. and WOW 75/21800.... unreal. huge congrats!!!
dropping in - Tues was an actually great track workout (12.8 total incl 8x600m (2:09-2:15) + 4x200 (40 or under)), yesterday was easy 10k@8:13 (chatting the entire time with a new coworker!) + bodypump as usual.
_____________________________________________ 5k - 20:45 13.1 - 1:33:49 26.2 - 3:21:05next: kaiser half, oakland half, hopkinton, SF half, [...], trail 50k?!
... "moose mug" ... is there a female version?
2:20 + age
Dad - my wind forecast is now for 9mph at 8 am, race starts at 10am, 25mph at 11am. The first 10.6 miles are in a canyon that tends to funnel the wind, so often there are lulls and blasts. The one possible bright spot is that the wind is forecast as NW rather than SW, so after the turn south at 10.6 (out of the canyon) it might have a decent tailwind component.
My boat exercise was mostly snorkeling, but I did compete in a biathlon in George Town, Bahamas during the Cruiser's Regatta: 100 meter beach run followed by 100 meter swim. I came in second place and won a six-pack of local Kalik beer. (I also competed in a 50m freestyle swim and came in first, and won a bottle of rum, but these prizes were of roughly equal value based on what they'd cost in a store.)
SMax - When my Garmin watchband broke (305) I bought a velcro band from, um, somewhere on the net. It worked great. Hmm, actually, I have some spare 305 watchband parts if you want me to just send them to you. Or my velcro band, since I have the 610 now. I need to give away the 305. When I bought it, I gave my 301 to a poor grad student friend of mine; I am thinking of donating the 305 (it works, it just drains battery quickly) to the high school.
thanks, PJ + Dad. HA. looks like i'm going to wait a few decades for that one... either that or qualify for the olympic trials. nbd.
ilana ~ My winds are comparable. Depending on source, as low as 9 and as high 21; 14/15 seems consensus, although as Max noted their might be a relative lull Sun am.
It'll be a headwind from 10-16 and a chunk of that is on boardwalk; the rest just inland. So...
I get it back from 22-26, if I can manage energy.
Alcohol + adventure seem to be recurring themes for you.
pj ~ Saw article on him. OTQ. Wow. He'll be zipping along just under my mile pace.
As many already said, it's sub 2:20 + your age, so, if you are 22, you have to run 2:41:xx, to get it.
and WOW 75/21800.... unreal. huge congrats!!!
It's all relative, you know... As dcv2002 mentioned, my time in LA would not even get me into the first 1000 in Boston
Dave: Thanks for the offer. I'm ok right now - no real need to know my pace. Lots of slow, endless runs ahead.
KK: FR10 is probably just right for DW who basically hates the watch to begin with. I'm sticking with the 310xt.
Ilana: It's not the band that's broken - that would be relatively easy. I tore out the spot where it attaches to the body. I did that on my old one, and handled it with glue and duct tape for a while, but this one is too new to be messing with it. Plus, I didn't tug that hard and it irritates me that it's so weak there. Good luck in your race - I hope the wind does you a favor if it has to be there.
Dad: Thanks for the good wishes. Just a fun run. Slow and endless. And hilly. I hope you crush your race.
SP: Hardly stupid. I didn't stretch or roll when I was a whippersnapper either. Now I have a choice between doing those things or being injured. Neither choice is fun but one is better.
Justin: Move to Seattle and you can have those temps 10 months of the year. Or you can move to where McBen is - that sounds lovely.
Rlk: Sounds like you are in the exercise Zone right now.
PJ: I made 10 gallons of mead for our wedding. Father-in-law was guzzling it in the reception line. It was quite strong. DW was quite amused.
6E this morning, not so pds anymore.
Easy. RUN MORE!
I fell asleep on the bus this morning. The woman sitting next to me had to prod me awake so she could get out.
Puto - I was referring to Ilana's sticky thread entitled: So you're about to run a marathon and want pace advice...


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These amazing images are just a small selection of the Arajo Autumn/Winter '09 collection. This avant-garde collection features couture that conjoins knees and attaches wrists to hips for a most curious aesthetic. Birdcage skirts and headpieces envelop hips and heads for imposing finishing touches.
Check out more of the Arajo Autumn/Winter '09 collection above, and keep clicking for more avant-garde fashions.


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Debbie W.
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Opolo Sparkling Wine
one year ago
Opolo sparkling at Opolo winery in paso Robles a little sweet but tasty!
one year ago
Terry our wine host at tobin James!
Tobin James Sauvignon Blanc 2009
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Love this one terry is a great wine host! Very crisp! Delicious!
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Robert Hall Cabernet Sauvignon 2010
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In paso Robles at Robert halls guest house trying all if his great wines! Beautiful property!
Snapdragon 2010
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New wine we r trying
Tobin James Merlot
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Tobin James Ballistic Zinfandel 2010
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Costco Escondido
William Knuttel Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
2 years ago
Wine from our dads wine club he had a delivery of 6 wines and we chose this one from heralds burg ca
Napa Cellars Chardonnay 2009
2 years ago
Nice! On wine list at THe Oaks Grille in Ramona, Ca


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Fresh from the oven; enjoy!
19:00 :::: plasmaroo changed the topic of #gentoo-devrel to: Gentoo Developer Relations || Next meeting: NOW! 19:00 < spb_> ka0ttic: he had something to actually change between those two though ;p 19:00 <@slarti> ka0ttic: but, it's up to you :) Probably leave it for now though. 19:00 <@ka0ttic> ah ok. good I'll leave it be. 19:00 <@plasmaroo> jhuebel|afk: ^^ 19:00 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: ^^ 19:00 <@ka0ttic> I'd rather not break anything 19:00 <@dmwaters> sorry, was talking to corey:p 19:01 :::: kloeri_!~kloeri@... has joined #gentoo-devrel 19:01 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: log away 19:01 <@plasmaroo> Heya kloeri_ 19:01 <@dmwaters> ok 19:01 <@dostrow> heya kloeri_ 19:01 <@dmwaters> so 19:01 < kloeri_> hi 19:01 <@slarti> hi kloeri_ :) 19:02 <@dmwaters> with the number of people here, i think we should do this like we do managers meetings 19:02 **** kloeri_ waves :) 19:02 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: WFM. 19:02 <@slarti> dmwaters: +m, then open floor when the agenda has been covered? cool. 19:02 <@plasmaroo> slarti: Yep. 19:02 <@dmwaters> basically, moderate the channel, then life it at the end q/a 19:02 <@plasmaroo> Anything anybody has to say before we begin? 19:02 <@dmwaters> yes 19:02 <@dmwaters> erm, brb, got to help the boss 19:03 <@kingtaco|laptop> party time? 19:03 <@plasmaroo> Guess not, if you need +v for whatever reason /msg me. 19:03 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +m by plasmaroo 19:04 <@dmwaters> ok 19:04 <@dmwaters> back 19:04 <@dmwaters> so 19:04 <@dmwaters> origionally we were going to discuss better ways to handle complaints 19:05 <@dmwaters> then, urilith came up with a proposal which i like, and i get the impression others like as well 19:05 <@dmwaters> have you all seen his email to gentoo-devrel? 19:05 <@jhuebel|afk> sorry I'm late. 19:05 <@dostrow> yup 19:05 :::: jhuebel|afk is now known as jhuebel 19:05 <@dostrow> heya jhuebel 19:06 <@ka0ttic> I like the proposal 19:06 <@jhuebel> Me too. 19:06 <@plasmaroo> Proposal++ 19:06 <@dmwaters> i'm suggesting that we adopt the proposal 19:06 <@dmwaters> it does need some work 19:06 <@dmwaters> however, for the most part, i think it's fine 19:07 <@slarti> right. The managers thing is tricky. 19:07 <@jhuebel> Mainly fine tuning, but overall it's great. 19:07 <@dostrow> I think it's a fine springboard 19:07 **** jhuebel nods. 19:07 <@dmwaters> dostrow thinks that we need more people to make it work 19:07 <@slarti> with the new metastructure, what happens if a devrel member becomes a manager all of a sudden? giving up a post just because of that would be problematic 19:08 <@dmwaters> i think with 5 judges and 10 investigators though, i think we're ok at least in that department 19:08 <@plasmaroo> Yeah. 19:08 <@jhuebel> Well, if judicial group, managers and investigators all have to be seperate, that's a lot of people. 19:08 <@plasmaroo> I wouldn't mind helping out with investigation. 19:08 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: you're ombudsman, it's a no go 19:08 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: I do investigation already :p 19:08 <@plasmaroo> Oh well :) 19:08 <@dostrow> I think we need more people to make it work not in the sense of we have to few people to make it work now but in the sense of even if we spilt ourselves in half it's still the same combined 'clique' making the call 19:08 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: agreed. however, we need to be careful that we don't become too large and half our members inactive, that's my only concern 19:09 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: Yeah, that's always the biggest problem. 19:09 <@plasmaroo> Yep. 19:09 <@dmwaters> dostrow: unfortunately, people are going to cry cabal no matter how we do it 19:09 <@g2boojum> The judicial folks are rarely needed. What about choosing them by lottery from the existing devs when needed? 19:09 <@dostrow> of course, but with a larger or rotational body it's less defensable 19:10 <@jhuebel> g2boojum: That's a good thought. 19:10 <@ka0ttic> g2boojum: that's an idea 19:10 <@cshields> g2boojum: there is no way to enforce their participation 19:10 <@plasmaroo> g2boojum: Works for me, perhaps choose devs that have been here for X months? 19:10 <@jhuebel> Jury of your peers and all that... 19:10 <@plasmaroo> cshields: So we pick different people until we get some. 19:10 <@kingtaco|laptop> I wonder how many will call into jury duty 19:10 <@cshields> plasmaroo: most people who are willing to help with such stuff are already here.. 19:10 <@dmwaters> g2boojum: are you saying that when they are needed, pick a set of people from the devs? 19:10 <@jhuebel> plasmaroo: I don't think the amount of time a dev has been with the project should apply in this case. 19:10 <@kingtaco|laptop> and I think thats a terrible idea 19:10 **** dostrow remembers calling for a jury pool a while ago and getting shot down 19:11 <@plasmaroo> cshields: I think it depends on how much work will be involved. 19:11 <@jhuebel> Hmmm... 19:11 <@cshields> dostrow: keep in mind that no matter what is decided here, next time action is taken there will be people who cry foul. 19:11 <@plasmaroo> If it's a lot of work, yeah, we're unlikely to get people. 19:11 <@iggy> I haven't seen this proposal, but is there a provision to enact things quickly if need be for security/damage control reasons? 19:11 <@dostrow> cshields: of course 19:11 <@plasmaroo> iggy: No, but that's a good point which we need to solve. 19:11 <@cshields> iggy: infra will do that themselves 19:12 <@kingtaco|laptop> we are too small a group not to have links to everyone 19:12 <@plasmaroo> cshields: And then we get the cabal thing for authorizing infra to act too soon? 19:12 <@dostrow> iggy: it was brought up as an ammendment to the proposal 19:12 <@dmwaters> g2boojum: ? 19:12 <@plasmaroo> dostrow: Ah, okay. 19:12 <@cshields> plasmaroo: nope.. infra has taken such actions before without devrel involvement.. -shrug- 19:12 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: if infra is willing to take the screaming, then it's up to them 19:12 <@cshields> plasmaroo: in the case where something should involve devrel it would 19:12 <@plasmaroo> cshields: That's fine then. 19:12 <@jhuebel> plasmaroo: Well, we have to balance acting to protect Gentoo resources with not throwing out a dev entirely without due process. 19:12 <@plasmaroo> jhuebel: Of course. 19:13 <@jhuebel> I think temporarily suspending a devs access when there is suspicious activity is perfectly acceptable. 19:13 <@dostrow> cshields: I recognize that there will always be cries of foul play, I just want to make them look rediculous 19:13 <@dmwaters> dostrow: that's hard to do sometimes no matter how we do it 19:13 <@jhuebel> If we turn into the Vogons, needing triplicate forms for any action taken, things will break before we act. 19:14 <@plasmaroo> Heh. 19:14 <@dostrow> and I meant the cries of foul play not the people 19:14 <@cshields> dostrow: it's all a matter of opinion. :) a lot of them looked pretty rhidiculous to me this past time around (not saying that I don't see room for improvement here) 19:14 <@plasmaroo> jhuebel: That's effectively what iggy effectively asked about. 19:14 <@dmwaters> my question still didn't get answered, though. is grant saying pick a set of devs from the entire community to act as judge when needed? 19:14 <@cshields> plasmaroo: that was an effective statement ;) 19:14 <@dostrow> I never desire to make people look rediculous, unless I'm playing clown dress up 19:14 <@plasmaroo> cshields: Whoops ;) 19:14 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: yes 19:15 <@jhuebel> It sounds good in theory, but I think most devs won't want to participate. 19:15 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: it's their own fault if they don't and a decision is made they didn't like. 19:15 <@cshields> you may end up having a hard time finding a fair and balanced "jury" that way, too 19:15 <@jhuebel> And we'll end up with the small group who /are/ willing to take the crap. 19:15 <@dmwaters> cshields: agreed. 19:15 <@cshields> and to make it fair and balanced, jury selection would need to happen 19:16 <@cshields> and by that time I'll give it all up and find something else to do :| 19:16 <@dmwaters> to me, it's a nice idea in theory, but it seems like too much red take 19:16 <@dmwaters> tape 19:16 <@jhuebel> Not red tape so much as logistically difficult. 19:16 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: nod 19:16 <@dostrow> agreed, it's a tough call, that's one of the reason I feel a "jury pool" for a case by case basis is a bad idea 19:17 <@dmwaters> what about about having people that we rotate out on a yearly basis? 19:17 **** slarti likes that idea 19:17 <@plasmaroo> People go on holiday? 19:17 <@dostrow> however if the jury is convened at say the beginning of a month regardless of if there is an incident or not....... 19:17 <@dmwaters> people that we pick from either devrel or the devs in general? 19:17 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: It would have to be devs in general. 19:17 <@cshields> again, you have a problem of finding people who are willing versus forcing people to "serve".. It would be silly to cut someone off the team because they dodged their jury duty 19:17 <@dostrow> a year is a long shot, cut it down to a quarter and I'd be happier 19:17 <@jhuebel> It couldn't be devrel people. 19:18 <@g2boojum> dmwaters: Sorry, boss irq. Yes, that's what I was saying. 19:18 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: it could 19:18 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: long as they're not a manager or an investigator 19:18 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: That's true. 19:18 <@dostrow> or obudman 19:18 <@dmwaters> dostrow: yes 19:18 <@dostrow> *ombudsman 19:18 <@plasmaroo> Yep. 19:18 <@dostrow> *ombudsmen 19:18 <@dmwaters> i think 6 months would be better 19:18 <@dostrow> damnit 19:18 <@dmwaters> quarter is a bit short 19:19 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: Right, to much shuffling around. 19:19 <@jhuebel> *too 19:19 <@plasmaroo> Hrm, 6 months would work. 19:19 <@dmwaters> cshields: we'd not force them to serve. there's people who'd be happy to be involved, it's just a matter of finding them 19:19 <@jhuebel> Assuming we only have one or two significant incidents in a year, a 6 month term would be easy. 19:19 <@dostrow> something this broad sweeping should be put to a general vote though, enacting this kind of policy can;t be done in a meeting like this 19:19 <@cshields> dmwaters: right. my point is that for the most part, such people are already here in devrel 19:20 <@dmwaters> cshields: hm, nods 19:20 <@g2boojum> cshields: I personally think you'd be surprised. Yes, people would decline, but I suspect you'd have better than 50% success rate, and that means only two iterations. 19:20 <@cshields> dmwaters: how easy has it been to find help in recruiting, for instance? 19:20 <@jhuebel> dostrow: This is a TLP change, so managers would need to be involved. 19:20 <@jhuebel> Like a GLEP. :-) 19:20 <@dostrow> g2boojum: agreed 19:20 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: this isn't a tlp change... 19:20 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: this happens inside of devrel 19:20 <@g2boojum> cshields: Part of the difference is that it would be _temporary_. Recruiting is a long-term process. 19:20 <@cshields> true.. 19:21 <@cshields> I'm not against the concept, I'm against the hours upon hours that will be wasted implementing it 19:21 <@dostrow> it would be temporary and as has been shown in the past the incidents are rare 19:21 <@cshields> I guess "wasted" is rather harsh 19:21 **** jhuebel nods. 19:21 <@dostrow> if recruiting meat you had to do one dev in 6 months things would be different 19:21 <@dmwaters> g2boojum: here's the thing though, i've asked people to be part of devrel though and most don't want to touch it, so corey does have a point 19:21 <@cshields> but I see this as trying to solve a problem, and in doing so other people are not going to like the outcome of this solution, making it a problem in itself 19:22 <@dmwaters> ok 19:22 <@dmwaters> let's forget this for a moment 19:22 <@dmwaters> how about this 19:22 <@dmwaters> we could always rotate investigators and judges on a 6 month basis inside of devrel 19:22 <@dmwaters> that would be much easier to handle 19:22 <@jhuebel> True. 19:22 <@plasmaroo> That'll work. 19:22 <@dmwaters> devrel currently has about 20 people 19:23 <@jhuebel> How many of each? 19:23 <@dmwaters> i've got 4 others who are interested 19:23 <@dostrow> I also think we have to look at this from a "Baby Steps" perspective, one thing at a time 19:23 <@dmwaters> who i've not proposed yet because of the recent flame war 19:23 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: 5 judges 10 investigators 19:23 <@jhuebel> Ah, that's right. 19:23 <@jhuebel> Do we really need 10 investigators? 19:23 <@dmwaters> dostrow: hm? 19:23 <@jhuebel> Seems like overkill. 19:23 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: the more the better 19:23 <@dostrow> I even think 10 investigators is too much 19:24 <@plasmaroo> Yah. 19:24 <@slarti> five sounds fair. 19:24 <@dmwaters> why? 19:24 <@jhuebel> I'd say 5 judges, 3 investigators. 19:24 <@dostrow> how many incidents are there 19:24 <@slarti> jhuebel: or that 19:24 <@dostrow> jhuebel: agreed 19:24 <@slarti> dostrow: right. 19:24 <@dmwaters> dostrow: enough 19:24 <@slarti> dmwaters: good answer. :) 19:24 <@dmwaters> ok 19:24 <@dmwaters> look at it this way 19:24 <@dmwaters> 10 allows for some flexibility 19:25 <@jhuebel> Well, when I say 3 investigators, I mean 3 working on any given incident. 19:25 <@jhuebel> Not that we only have 3 on tap. 19:25 <@dmwaters> say if i go to see my mother and something happens, thatleaves 2 people to deal with it 19:25 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: look at the bigger picture for the moment:) 19:25 **** jhuebel listens :-P 19:26 <@dmwaters> i'm saying 10 because it allows for people to go on vacation or what ever. i didn't say they all had to be involved at once 19:26 <@dostrow> a pool of 10 of which at least 3 need to be involved in any active investigation? 19:26 <@dmwaters> nods 19:26 <@jhuebel> That's sounds good. 19:27 <@dostrow> sounds good to me 19:27 <@jhuebel> Investigators can be anyone in devrel. But I think we need to decide through some sort of informal vote who will be a judge. 19:27 <@dmwaters> personally, i think we need to rotate judges and investigators for the burnout factor 19:27 <@jhuebel> I'd say just judges. 19:28 <@dostrow> jhuebel: any non-manager/ombudsmen/judiciary 19:28 <@dostrow> I say we need to rotate them for bias factor as well 19:28 <@spyderous> if we're making the comparison to a jury, the jury merely decides guilt or innocence, not duration of punishment 19:29 <@dmwaters> at the current time with how devrel stands, i think managers should be allowed to investigate 19:29 <@dostrow> spyderous: this is more of a summary judgement arangement 19:29 <@dostrow> no jury just a panel of judges 19:29 **** jhuebel nods. 19:29 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Why? 19:29 <@spyderous> a panel of inexperienced judges? 19:30 <@jhuebel> spyderous: A panel of the devs peers. 19:30 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: because when you take into account judges and ombudsman you're a bit limited on the rest of the group currently. 19:30 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Hrm, how many people here are managers? 19:30 <@spyderous> jhuebel: and then you get complaints of unfair punishments tnat are unequal to those given by the last "jury" and the one before, etc 19:30 <@dostrow> spyderous: a panel of judges with strict guidelines to follow vis a vis punitive duration and type 19:30 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: But managers are also involved with the judicial side of things, when there is an appeal. 19:30 <@plasmaroo> jhuebel: Exactly, so we can't have them on the investigative side. 19:30 <@jhuebel> spyderous: See dostrow's comment. :-) 19:31 <@dmwaters> ok, someone go find me 5 new devrel people who aren't managers who want to be involved and who are willing to put up with the stuff and who'd make a good member:) 19:31 <@spyderous> it's my opinion that the peer panel should just decide guilt, and float it back to devrel leads for actual consequences. 19:31 <@spyderous> but i've got to go now. 19:31 <@dmwaters> spyderous: hrm, agreed 19:31 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: That's certainly a hurdle, but for the sake of seperation, it has to happen. 19:32 <@jhuebel> Otherwise, urilith's suggestion doesn't work. 19:32 <@dostrow> won't fly unless those same strict guidelines are in place 19:32 <@spyderous> so i'm with ya on whatever decision is made, because it's not that crucial to me. 19:32 <@spyderous> adios 19:32 <@dostrow> later donnie 19:32 <@jhuebel> spyderous: l8r :-) 19:32 <@dmwaters> out of the 4 people i've got who want/are interested in devrel, 2 of them are managers 19:33 <@jhuebel> Well, we don't have to have 5 managers for the appeal. 19:33 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Beu says he can help. 19:33 <@dmwaters> i'm guessing that 6 or 8 out of current devrel are also managers 19:33 <@jhuebel> It could be 3. 19:33 <@dostrow> even if the punitive portion is floated back to devrel we need a strict punitive code to assign punnishment 19:33 <@jhuebel> dostrow: agreed 19:33 <@slarti> we can always set up a smaller judiciary/whatever and get it up to full strength later 19:33 <@dmwaters> dostrow: can you put that in something i'll understand, please? 19:34 <@dmwaters> slarti: heh, if anything gets made smaller it'll be investigation 19:34 <@jhuebel> We /could/ have fewer managers deal with an appeal. 19:34 <@jhuebel> Say, 3. 19:34 <@dostrow> dmwaters: when someone gets charged for murder1 in the courts it is know that if they are found guilty it is a minimum of 25 year sentence 19:34 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: also agreed. 19:34 <@dostrow> that is a strict code 19:34 <@slarti> dostrow: yeah, someone said earlier 19:34 <@dmwaters> dostrow: most of that is already in place now 19:34 <@dostrow> thus someone else when found guilty of the same crime cannot get a lesser sentence 19:35 <@jhuebel> dostrow: Do we have plea bargains? ;-) 19:35 <@slarti> so, has anyone talked to fmccor? 19:35 <@dostrow> is it clearly VISABLY documented? 19:35 <@dmwaters> dostrow: as i recall the policy is something like a min of 60 day suspention 19:35 <@slarti> he'd be kinda cool on the devrel wagon. 19:35 <@dmwaters> dostrow: check the devrel policies 19:35 <@dmwaters> slarti: maybe... 19:36 <@dostrow> dmwaters: and that is for all infractions? 19:36 <@dmwaters> slarti: if people want to be involved though, they should either email me or jason or devrel. 19:36 <@dmwaters> dostrow: it takes a great deal for someone to get suspended to start with. 19:36 <@slarti> dmwaters: hmm, sometimes I think it's nice to proactively go after people, but whatever. 19:36 <@dmwaters> slarti: and we've gone after people before:) 19:37 <@slarti> okay :) 19:37 <@jhuebel> A former amd64 lead, for instance. ;-) 19:37 <@plasmaroo> Heh. 19:37 <@dostrow> dmwaters: ok, that is for suspension as a punitive reaction, there are going to be cases (especially in the case of technical infractions as opposed to social ones) that don't warrant suspension but do warrant action of some type 19:37 <@dmwaters> dostrow: for example, we wouldn't suspend you for something like telling jason to fuck off, but if you're constantly going after people like ciaranm did, it's a bit different 19:38 <@jhuebel> dostrow: Those should be referred back to the dev's mentor, I would think. 19:38 <@dmwaters> dostrow: those go back to project leads 19:38 <@dostrow> I think that's too subjective 19:38 <@dmwaters> dostrow: we were asked to stay out of technical stuff 19:38 <@dmwaters> dostrow: and we have 19:38 <@spyderous> dostrow: btw, could you please start using paragraphs in your emails in the future, so they're actually readable? =P 19:38 <@slarti> I agree with dmwaters 19:39 <@jhuebel> me too 19:39 <@dmwaters> dostrow: we were asked to stay out of technical stuff because when we got involved we were told to stay out 19:39 <@dostrow> by whom? one of the problems we face is there are LOTS of devs without a management structue 19:39 <@dostrow> who do they get reffered back to? 19:39 <@dmwaters> dostrow: then the managers need to come up with a solution 19:39 <@jhuebel> dostrow: That's not a devrel issue, essentially. 19:40 <@jhuebel> That's a management issue. 19:40 <@dmwaters> dostrow: when people come on, they're involved in a project of some sort if that changes later, it's not devrel's issue 19:41 <@dmwaters> dostrow: if we get involved in technical problems, people are going to be quite upset 19:41 <@jhuebel> We only deal with social conflict, thus "relations". :-) 19:42 <@dmwaters> dostrow: if someone's repeatedly breaking the tree, i'm honestly not really sure what to suggest. so far, it's not been a major issue 19:42 <@jhuebel> Well, if it's malicious then that's our problem. 19:42 <@jhuebel> If it's out of ignorance, that's a manager problem. 19:42 <@dmwaters> dostrow: if someone does break the tree it usually ends up that most of the devs beat the daylights out of the one who does it:) 19:42 <@dostrow> in your eyes, it's happend many times all of them innocent mistakes but none the less 19:42 <@g2boojum> I know that avenj used to talk to people about breaking the tree all the time, so I believe that there is at least the belief that devrel is involved to some extent. 19:43 <@dostrow> agreed 19:43 <@cshields> I was unaware that we had changed that 19:43 <@dostrow> and in at least one case we let someone back in (I am distinctly not pointing fingers) who did it multiple times 19:43 <@dmwaters> g2boojum: nods, I've suggested a few things, but personally i've never gone after people for breaking the tree 19:43 <@dostrow> who does, the managers certainly don't 19:44 <@dostrow> someone has to 19:44 <@jhuebel> Meritocricy. 19:44 <@dostrow> and the dev community needs to know who to turn to with complaints 19:44 <@jhuebel> Your fellow devs police you. 19:44 <@dmwaters> maybe this part should be braught up at the next managers meeting then 19:44 **** jhuebel nods. 19:44 <@dmwaters> g2boojum: ? 19:44 <@g2boojum> jhuebel: Yes, but a manager can't discipline a dev, since there's no infrastructure for that to happen outside of devrel. 19:44 <@dostrow> ok, I'll table it for now, but it needs to be crystal clear where we stand 19:45 <@dmwaters> dostrow: agreed 19:45 <@dostrow> g2boojum: that is excatly what I am saying 19:45 <@g2boojum> dmwaters: I suggest an e-mail on -core right now, since I've no idea what next meeting will be like, depending on the current vote. 19:45 <@dmwaters> g2boojum: what if the managers decide, and it comes back to us to handle from there? 19:45 <@cshields> (OT) when is the current vote over, anyway? 19:46 <@dmwaters> g2boojum: would it be worth holding till the vote is over? 19:46 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: Then devrel has a mandate to do it. 19:46 <@g2boojum> cshields: Next Monday at 23:59 UTC. 19:46 <@g2boojum> dmwaters: Yes. 19:46 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: i'm just thinking that managers should deal with the technical side, and if they agree something needs to be done then they send it back to us 19:47 <@cshields> ideally everyone would answer to a manager, and said manager would be involved on social issues as well 19:47 <@cshields> else we have another problem like what happened with pappy 19:47 <@jhuebel> cshields: Agreed. 19:48 <@jhuebel> So, the devrel lead should be a liason for other managers to go to. 19:48 <@jhuebel> But the managers would have to agree to that, of course. 19:48 <@jhuebel> Informally, that's how it is now, in my mind. 19:48 <@cshields> the managers should be the "first line of defense" per se 19:49 <@dostrow> the key there is *in your mind* the fact that none of this is on paper is part of the problem 19:49 <@jhuebel> Each project isn't its own little island. 19:49 <@cshields> if someone is being a jerk to people, and it is brought to devrel's attention, devrel talks to the manager 19:49 <@cshields> and the manager talks to the dev 19:49 <@jhuebel> dostrow: I'm not arguing that. 19:49 <@jhuebel> But at some point, you have to make judgement calls to get things done. 19:49 <@dmwaters> some of this is already in policy 19:49 <@jhuebel> That's why they are called managers. 19:50 <@cshields> but, currently not all devs answer to a manager so this may have to wait for the whole reform deal 19:50 <@g2boojum> cshields: It's also worth noting that if I get my way, a _lot_ of people aren't going to have managers. 19:50 <@dostrow> and I hate bureaucratic crap as much as the next guy, but it's the only way not to look like a guy with his willy hanging out of his pants every time something happens 19:50 <@jhuebel> heh 19:50 <@dmwaters> the thing to remember though is that we can have clear policy on most things but there needs to be room for flexibility 19:50 <@dmwaters> heh 19:50 <@cshields>g2boojum: true. renegade developers!!! w00t! ;) 19:50 <@dmwaters> but anyway:) 19:50 <@jhuebel> dmwaters: Agreed. You can't spell EVERYTHING out. It's not possible. 19:51 <@jhuebel> g2boojum: yuck, no managers for most devs? 19:51 **** dmwaters whimpers 19:51 <@dmwaters> :) 19:51 <@dmwaters> ok guys 19:51 <@jhuebel> There has to be someone a dev answers to. 19:51 <@jhuebel> But I digress. 19:51 <@dostrow> g2boojum's proposal has effectively no "managers" at all 19:51 <@dmwaters> let's slide back to the origional topic. 19:51 <@dmwaters> please:) 19:51 <@jhuebel> :-) 19:51 <@dostrow> indeed 19:52 <@dostrow> sorry for that 19:52 <@dmwaters> most of this managers stuff needs to wait till after the new vote 19:52 <@jhuebel> I've got 8 minutes until I have to be at another meeting. RL work beckons. 19:52 <@dmwaters> so 19:52 <@dmwaters> back to this proposal 19:52 <@dostrow> jhuebel: tell em to wait ;) 19:52 <@dmwaters> dostrow: ++ 19:52 <@jhuebel> dostrow: And when my paycheck bounces? :-P 19:52 <@dmwaters> so for now 19:53 <@dmwaters> we go with 6 investigators, 5 judges? 19:53 <@jhuebel> Sure. 19:53 <@slarti> agree 19:53 <@plasmaroo> Sure, a 7th investigator would help. 19:53 <@jhuebel> All 5 judges should be available. 19:53 <@dostrow> I'm good for that 19:53 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: we have a people problem right now:p 19:53 <@dmwaters> jhuebel: agreed 19:53 <@dmwaters> ok 19:53 <@dmwaters> now 19:54 <@dmwaters> g2boojum: cshields: thoughts? 19:54 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Nod nod. 19:54 <@dostrow> and none of the 11 can be managers or ombudsmen 19:54 **** jhuebel nods. 19:54 <@slarti> dostrow: I think that needs revisiting, but okay 19:54 <@dmwaters> dostrow: agreed. we might have to shorten the investigative number to accomidate that, but i will need to look into it 19:55 <@cshields> dmwaters: sure.. I still have doubts and concerns but I have no better solution to offer right now :) 19:55 <@jhuebel> We don't have to have 3 investigators on a particular case. 19:55 <@dostrow> note that when I say manager I mean TLP manager (as in those that one can appeal to) not project lead 19:55 <@dmwaters> cshields: we can refine the process as we go 19:55 <@slarti> dostrow: I'm just worried if we have a metastructure brought in (read: one of grant's) that requires managers to be elected. 19:55 <@g2boojum> dmwaters: I've been in and out, so I've missed some of the specifics. I'll have to wait for the official write up to make comments, I'm afraid. 19:56 <@dostrow> slarti: this whole thing may have to be redone following the restructure 19:56 <@dmwaters> people's concerns is that things aren't documented. i think that as long as the process is clear, we should be ok 19:56 <@g2boojum> I see nothing particularly worrisome at the moment, however. 19:56 <@plasmaroo> Agreed. 19:56 <@dmwaters> thank you grant:) 19:56 <@dmwaters> dostrow: we may not be able to rotate people in and out of judges right away, are you ok with this? 19:56 <@dostrow> dmwaters: not only clear but *documented* so that any dev can look up how it is done 19:56 <@slarti> dostrow: I feared as much. Maybe we just have to force the devrel members who are managers also to abstain for votes, or just forget about the whole thing. 19:56 <@dostrow> dmwaters: for now 19:57 <@dmwaters> dostrow: nods, that's what i meant 19:57 <@slarti> s/for/from/ 19:57 <@dmwaters> dostrow: am i missing anything else you've mentioned? 19:57 <@jhuebel> I gotta run. I'll read back through the log from here. <-- MARK 19:57 <@dostrow> slarti: yeah, we can't play the "anticipate the outcome of the vote" game, we have to go with what we know for now 19:57 <@dmwaters> later jason 19:58 **** dostrow decides to mess up jason's mark <-- MARK 19:58 <@cshields> lmao 19:58 <@cshields> ...jerk... heh 19:58 <@dostrow> dmwaters: so long as we can revisit the technical stuff no 19:59 <@dmwaters> last call before i open up the channel... are there any more concerns that aren't addressed or i've forgotten for this proposal? 19:59 <@dmwaters> dostrow: after the managers stuff, i promise:) 19:59 <@dmwaters> cshields: 20:00 <@cshields> no 20:00 <@dmwaters> alright 20:00 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: -m by dmwaters 20:00 <@dmwaters> questions from anyone else?:) 20:01 <@seemant> yeah, anyone got any salami? 20:01 <@cshields> about time you showed up 20:01 <@cshields> slacker 20:01 <@cshields> ;) 20:01 <@dmwaters> seemant: !! 20:01 <@seemant> I've been here, just not at keyboard really 20:01 <@slarti> hi seemant. 20:01 <@dmwaters> seemant+++ 20:02 <@seemant> hi all 20:02 <@ka0ttic> heya seemant 20:02 **** beu waves 20:02 <@dmwaters> last call for questions:) 20:02 **** slarti waves beu 20:02 <@dmwaters> questions, comments 20:02 < beu> tsk, waving me around like that .. 20:03 <@slarti> okay, maybe I missed it before, but what's the procedure for selecting the judiciary? 20:03 < beu> *mean* ;) 20:03 <@dostrow> I think we have to send the log out and make sure we get comments from the whole community before we enact this 20:03 <@dmwaters> slarti: they'll be selected from devrel members 20:03 < tove> what's the difference if the clique is split in two parts - one half investigates the other decides - to the whole clique does all? 20:03 <@dmwaters> dostrow: we will 20:03 <@dostrow> transparency++ 20:04 < tove> i prefer the random selection method 20:04 <@dostrow> tove: a question I posed to which the only answer I got was "Go try and get people to do it, you'll see" 20:04 <@dmwaters> tove: there will be a specific group responsible for it, as well as transparency. as things stand the entire devrel project is responsible for it and a lot of things aren't documented 20:05 <@dmwaters> tove: this proposal will fix most of this 20:06 <@dmwaters> anyone else? 20:06 < amne> dmwaters: yupp, not really concerning your just finished meeting, but something a bit else 20:06 <@dmwaters> amne: after meeting:) 20:06 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: tag and send! 20:06 <@plasmaroo> Okei! 20:06 <@dostrow> tove: the other thing is we have made it clear that we are willing to accept others into the investigatory/judiciary pool, and once we have enough the pools will rotate 20:07 <@dmwaters> thanks guys 20:07 <@dostrow> we just don't have enough 20:07 **** plasmaroo waits for you lot to finish. 20:07 <@dostrow> and volunteering has to be the way it is done 20:07 <@dostrow> *soory* 20:07 <@dostrow> finnished 20:07 <@dmwaters> thanks dostrow :) 20:07 < amne> dmwaters: oh, thought it's already over ;-) ping me once you're really finished 20:07 <@dmwaters> amne: what's up:) 20:07 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: go for it:)
Updated Jun 17, 2009
Summary: Archive of the gentoo-devrel mailing list.
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Puck Huffers was started in November 2008 for a variety of reasons, namely to prove that we are awesome and channel our interest in the NHL into something constructive. We've pioneered innovations in inebriated liveblogging and have expanded our sphere of coverage to include Blingee studies, travel writing, and vampires.
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In this week's show we discuss a few of our favourite techniques for catching walleye at the end of the summer.
Posts Tagged 'pattern'
Radio Show: Late Summer Walleye
Posted: 1st September 2011 by Jeff in GeneralTags: bait, bottom bouncer, cast, casting, crankbait, early fall, Fall, family, Fishing, food, green weeds, high percentage, Kids, Late summer, multi-species, oxygen, pan fish, pattern, pickerel, Quinte Walleye Challenge, summer, Trolling, vegetation, Walleye, weedbed, Weedline, weedlines, worm harness
Radio Show: Casting for fall Muskies
Posted: 16th November 2010 by Jeff in GeneralTags: bait fish, big baits, casting, catch and release, conservation, deep weed, Equipment, experiment, figure eight, find fish, growth, Jeff Chisholm, line, Musky, north shore, pattern, Pro Tackle Musky Shop, reel, rocks, Rod, sand, Scott Walcott, second tier weeds, Stacy Ash, strike, structure, sun, warm water, www.protacklemuskyshop.com
In this week's show, Stacy Ash from Pro Tackle joins us again to discuss fall Musky tactics. Stacy is an avid Musky fisherman and guide. We discuss fall patterns, location, equipment and baits. Check out Pro Tackle's website at http://www.protacklemuskyshop.com
Radio Show: Line Counter Reels
Posted: 13th October 2010 by Jeff in GeneralTags: chart, crankbait, deep, depth, dive curve, fish, Fishing, hardbait, level wind, line, line counter, lure, mark, pattern, planer board, precision, precision trolling, Rapala line counter, reel, repetition, sonar, spinner, success, Trolling, Walleye, Walleye Institute
This show discusses the benefits of using line counter reels when trolling. We explore a few tips on how to utilize this fundamental tool to fish with precision and repeat your success. If you have any further questions, we would love to hear from you. So feel free to leave us a comment below.
Radio Show: Fishing New Water
Posted: 9th August 2010 by Jeff in GeneralTags: baitshop, bottom composition, bottom contact, find, fish, forums, high percentage areas, internet, local, new, pattern, transitions, water, zig zag
In this show we discuss fishing a new body of water. Topics include ways to obtain information before you leave home along with some tips on how to find fish and make your time on this new water more effective.