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The reason I am posting is that my wife has been going to dance clubs with her sister and mom (both single). I can't dance and don't enjoy that atmosphere so I don't usually go with her. Well I went the other night and things didn't turn out so good. Their was a group of us including a few of her female friends from school (she is going for an RN) and her mother and sister. I was under the impression that she doesn't dance, but hangs out at the tables. So we are at the club and she tells me that their is a guy from her class showing up and for me to not freak out if she dances with him. So she goes to get a drink and I look at her phone and she ahs a text message from him saying "are you ready to dance" and "where are you (in the club)". So she gets back from getting a drink and I am upset. She talks to me and I calm down. He shows up and I act polite, shake his hand. So a little while later a song she likes comes on and she goes to dance with a few of her girl friends. After she is out their for a few songs another of her friends is telling me to go dance with her and I start felling like if I don't then this guy from her class is going to go out their. So I do dance with her for a song, and hate every minute of it because I can't dance. Afterwards we leave and she doesn't dance with him. We have talked about it a lot and she is very good about getting me to communicate about it. It is the fact that I am very insecure and have not had many relationships before I met her. I am now 27 and we have been married for 4 years and dated 3 years before that. I know that many people don't mind their wife's dancing with other men because it does not mean anything and is just fun. But for me the thought of her dancing to R&B music (usually very close dancing with a lot of contact) with another man depresses me. This all happened 2 days ago and I can't stop thinking about her dancing with someone else. She has told me that he is from out of the country and doesn't have any friends so she invited him to go out with her and her friends so he doesn't sit at home all the time and she said he can dance okay. Now the thing that gets me is that my wife never told me that she dances with someone (although I wonder if she just didn't tell me because she knew I would not be able to handle it because of my insecurities. I just don't know what to think about this and how I can coupe with her going to the clubs without me. See, I am into cars and she isn't so I go out with my friends and talk cars and go to the races and she goes out with her mom and sister (which are both single). I know this has been a bit of a ramble but I am just venting a bit. Thanks for any feedback. |
Follow-Up Postings:
Stop feeling so sorry for yourself and either ask your wife to teach you to dance or get professional lessons if you don't want her going alone. Your wife's been upfront and honest with you and you have no reason whatsoever to be suspicious of her. Okay, you're into cars and she doesn't go with you. Is she as jealous of you as you seem to of her? Or does she trust you? You don't seem to have much trust or faith in your wife. Frankly, I feel sorry for her. |
Patti43 I have to disagree with some of what you said. Nothing car related involves contact with the opposite sex. Also, she never told me that she was dancing with a guy from school. Now having said that, she is going to go out with her sister tonight without me because we don't have a babysitter. She has asked me and told me that she doesn't want to make me upset. I told her that I have no right to be upset and that I trust her. I have told her that the problem is with me and I don't want to keep her from having a good time. I know I will probably be crying later when I start thinking about it too much. I am looking into counseling to help me with a much deeper problem besides the dancing. |
- Posted by dirtdivarocks (My Page) on Sat, Mar 24, 07 at 23:14
I don't believe that it is right for your wife to be out dancing with men and drinking in clubs with other single women on a frequent basis. Text messages from another man???? Come on! Who is she trying to kid. She's going to get caught up in a mess if she doesn't watch it. What's wrong with family outings or family nights? Or why not have date night with her and go to the movies or somewhere that you both enjoy. Try to rekindle what the two of you enjoy together. You didn't have a babysitter so YOU stayed home and she went to a club? This just sounds a bit wrong to me. Just my opinion. |
It is a very, very rare occasion that I would even be given the opportunity to dance with anyone but my husband. Now given that rare chance, I may dance a song with a stranger, or maybe a formal type dance with a friend, but I would feel sort of odd really 'dancing' with someone I knew that wasn't my husband. And, I would never be receiving text messages from guys about meeting up and dancing at a club together. Maybe there is nothing going on, but I would bet the other guy may want there to be, and that your wife may be loving the attention from him. Is there a chance the other guy is gay? Because, other than that, generally guys don't hang out at clubs, dance with, and text message a woman unless they are interested in them. No straight guy likes to dance that much. And, IMHO there is no reason she should be going to dance clubs on a regular basis. They are meat markets. If she were seriously interested in dancing, she can take a ballet class and if she needs to talk to her sister, they can meet for coffee. It's not the 'dancing' itself that would worry me, but a lot of other stuff. I don't see her being as honest as patti does...seemed to me like she has been lying or hiding stuff and just told you stuff as needed that you would find out anyway. That's not honestly...that's her trying to cover her as&. If it really comes down to your having to dance...then just go ahead and dance...no one really cares how you look or that you can't dance. Just go with her to the club; I bet she'll decide she doesn't like the clubs and dancing so much after all. |
First off, regularly going out to bars and/or discos with single women is not a great idea. Those places are meat markets, and just aren't the kind of thing that nurture a strong marriage. That said -- no good can come to you be going either 'territorial' and forbidding it, or by acting 'insecure' and asking her not to go. Instead, propose an alternate 'date' for the two of you -- something romantic and special that will make your wife remember what she loves about you. Even better, talk to your wife about taking dancing lessons together. Tell her you're nervous and a bit embarassed, but that since she loves to dance, you want her to love to dance with you. Suck up your fear, stuff a hankie in your discomfort, and just do it. The rewards will astound you... Truly, there's very little on earth sexier than a man who knows how to dance well -- even the short, fat, bald ones look wonderful on the dance floor. |
Well, admittedly, it's been many years since I've been out dancing with friends so, obviously, things have changed. Or values have. Maybe you think your wife doesn't have any. Don't know. Listen to sweeby. Especially his/her third sentence. Think maybe you'd like dancing? Easiest exercise in the world and--to me--the most fun. (And it is pretty sexy!) |
I ahe toagree with this statement from sweeby Instead, propose an alternate 'date' for the two of you -- something romantic and special that will make your wife remember what she loves about you. I think we need to find more activities that we can do together. |
I dont think she should be going out all the time either. However,you arent THAT old,and it is wrong to think she cant have fun now and then. My advice,is GO WITH HER!!! Even if you dont dance,even if you just sit there all night~at least you will know she isnt doing anything~and who knows? YOU may end up having fun with her. I NEVER go out anymore to clubs or places like that unless my husband is with me. Those places ARE meat markets,and for a woman,anything can happen. But have a talk with her.Tell her it just doesnt feel right her going out so much.Maybe you can make an agreement like once a month or something... Really though,bars are just a bad idea. |
- Posted by jennmonkey (My Page) on Mon, Mar 26, 07 at 16:05
I have to disagree with most of you. I'm 28, in a long term relationship, and my boyfriend doesn't like to go out either. So, I go out with my friends! I spend plenty of time doing things with him that we both enjoy, but I also enjoy going out to karaoke or dancing with friends. Just because he doesn't like to do it does not mean I am going to stop. I also dance with other people, but would never in a million years cheat on my boyfriend. Just because some people go to those places to try and hook up does not mean she is going to. She could get hit on in the grocery store or library also. It's all about trust and obviously you don't trust her if you are upset about her dancing with her co-worker. Either she has done something to make you not trust her, or you have some serious jealousy issues. You either need to learn to dance so you can dance with her, or go with her and stop pouting all night because she is dancing with others. If you tell her to stop going then you are going to look like a controlling jerk who will not allow his wife to do things because he doesn't like to and doesn't trust her. I'm not trying to be mean here, I'm being honest. If I was with somebody who did not "allow" (LOL) me to do something because they didn't enjoy it, and didn't trust me when I have never given them a reason not to, then I would leave them. It is an issue that will just keep coming up over and over again. If you don't like her dancing with other people, then you better learn to dance and go with her. If you trust her and you know she is a faithful wife, you have nothing to worry about. |
I have made it clear to her that I do not want her to stop going. Although she says she doens't want to go if ti is going to upset me. I dont think it is that I dont trust her. It is my insecurity and lack of confidence in myself that makes things difficult in this situation. I have scheduled a ounseling session for the 2nd. |
- Posted by jennmonkey (My Page) on Mon, Mar 26, 07 at 17:50
Good for you!!!!! I think you should surprise her with some ballroom dancing lessons or salsa lessons for the both of you! That would help improve your confidence, and hey, she already chose you so you should be confident about that too! Good luck! |
Jenn, you are not married. There is a difference. When I was single I always went to bars, etc. even if I had a serious boyfriend and they went to bars without out me. We danced with all kinds of people. It was no big deal, but things do change when you get married. I reread some of the posts and I really don't think this is about the OP's girlfriend liking to dance. Yep, we've ll been there...at a wedding or somewhere...where our SO or hubby doesn't like to dance so we go out on the floor with someone else, no big deal. But, this co-worker is after his wife. This is an ongoing meeting opportunity for them and does not seem healthy. If the original poster was a girl and the roles were reversed, would anyone feels differently? Hi, I'm Susie...my husband goes to clubs with his single friends all the time, one time I went and his co-worker was text messaging him about meeting up and dancing; I guess they do this a lot and I got upset. What do you think? Sorry, but, this just not right...for either sex. There's something going on here. The OP may be insecure and a really crappy dancer, but I'd lay money on it his wife is either cheating or heavily thinking about it. Honesty and trust in marriage isn't just about words, and being mature enough to not be insecure. It's also about respecting you marriage enough to not put yorself in situations where you may want to cheat. That's were the real honesty and trust come in. I don't think she's doing that. Sometimes there really are legitimate reason for people to be jealous. |
- Posted by jennmonkey (My Page) on Mon, Mar 26, 07 at 18:24
I still disagree. And no I would not feel differently the other way around. If they were slow dancing, that's different, but fast dancing, just for fun, I don't think that's a big deal at all. I think his wife would know if the co-worker was hitting on her, and if so, she would tell him to back off. I may not be married, but we have lived together for a long time and I still plan on going out without him once we are married. I have never even been tempted to cheat, and if I was, I would question what is going on in my own relationship to cause me to feel that way and fix it. I also agree that sometime there are legitimate reasons to be jealous sometimes, but I wouldn't want to be in a relationship where I often had legitimate reasons to be jealous. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. We all see things through our own eyes, based on our own experiences. What works well in my relationship will not neccesarily work in somebody elses. I see plenty of things that work in others that would certainly not work for me. What is important is what works for them, and it seems like counseling is a good step for figuring that out. |
My DH doesn't really like to dance that much- hates the crowds, isn't that great of a dancer (especially since I like Latin dancing), etc. I still manage to drag him out a couple times a year and he eventually admits that he enjoyed himself. I have to disagree that ALL clubs are meat markets. We go to Latin clubs and 99% of the people there are with their SO. Granted, we don't necessarily hit the trendiest clubs on the scene, but if you seek them out, you can find non-meat-market dance clubs. The clubs we go to are terrible places to meet people because everyone is already hooked up! Anyway, I'd NEVER dance with another man, especially knowing that it would hurt DH. It doesn't matter if I am "just dancing" it's the fact that I would be knowingly hurting him. It's a matter of simple consideration for his feelings, not a matter of control. DH trusts me completely, he would NEVER suggest that I don't go dancing with other people, but it will never come up because I know he would be hurt. Maybe there is a little bit of excessive insecurity on the part of guyguy at play here, but I also think there is excessive inconsideration on the part of his wife as well. Just my opinion... |
- Posted by dirtdivarocks (My Page) on Mon, Mar 26, 07 at 21:02
Carla35 is right on the money. What your wife may not realize is that she is setting herself up for a situation that may not be appropriate. What she is doing is NOT appropriate behavior for a married person. Because she wants to continue with the behavior, tells me that her priorities may not be spending time with you or the family. You're not being jealous, you just smell a rat. |
Yeah, jenn, I guess we'll just have have to disagree ;-) I hope for you in marriage what I have though, and that is the fact that I just don't enjoy going to dance clubs anymore (of course I may still go on special occasions--bachelorette parties or special b-days but it's just really not fun anymore). I think it's just something that normally comes with a happy marriage...dance clubs really do just loose there appeal. As you and your friends start getting married, I think you'll see that. Even the single friends will start to look elsewhere for serious relationships. Dinner and books clubs or going to movies will take the place of going out to clubs; jobs will become too important, and time too short to be spending your nights out. At least, I hope that happens for you! |
Jumping back in again--probably shouldn't. You can meet a man going to dinner with friends or a book club or movies, if that's what you want. I think the OP is a teeny bit more than insecure (and HE said he was insecure). Trust me, I was married to one that sounded just like him. I hope he goes to that counseling session he says he has scheduled. And I want him to report in. Not holding my breath on that one! |
Yeah, patti, if you want to cheat you can find a man just about anywhere...heck, the mailman or garbage man could do...but that's not what I was talking about or was implying. I was implying that usually happily married woman enjoy book clubs and dinners with their friends instead of dance clubs because they are no longer looking for men and no longer have the time to party all night all the time. They simply may prefer to spend quality time with their friends over mingling and dancing with guys at bars. I didn't mean to suggest that you can't meet men at restaurants or movies if you are wanting to cheat..of course you can. Sorry you took it wrong. I am wondering, though, are there any happily married woman on this board (no not just dating seriously) that have been married for a few years that still frequent dance clubs with single friends on a regular occasion (not just special occasions) and meet up and dance with guys they already know there? Maybe the times have changed or some areas are just different. Insecurity is a very odd thing..I find usually the people who feel they have to convince you they are secure are the most insecure ones, and many times the most insecure ones have very good reasons to be...simply saying you are or not, isn't really worth a hill of beans, IMHO. Everybody will get jealous if pushed enough...if they care about their SO. Insecurity/Security is not an all or nothing type of thing....it's just all shades of grey. And often it's the person we are with that makes us one way or the other. |
"Yeah, patti, if you want to cheat you can find a man just about anywhere...heck, the mailman or garbage man could do...but that's not what I was talking about or was implying. I was implying that usually happily married woman enjoy book clubs and dinners with their friends instead of dance clubs because they are no longer looking for men and no longer have the time to party all night all the time. They simply may prefer to spend quality time with their friends over mingling and dancing with guys at bars. I didn't mean to suggest that you can't meet men at restaurants or movies if you are wanting to cheat..of course you can. Sorry you took it wrong." I would just like to add,many of them have children,so clubbing after having children is not really a good idea.A good mom's priorities arent partying all night. |
- Posted by dirtdivarocks (My Page) on Tue, Mar 27, 07 at 20:22
guyguy wrote: "Now having said that, she is going to go out with her sister tonight without me because we don't have a babysitter." I think you guessed wrong, unless the babysitter is for the dog. |
Well then,that sheds a whole new light on the subject doesnt it? Exspecially being that it is a school night. |
Carla35--I knew what you meant. I was trying to get that point home to the OP. Just think he's got a serious trust problem and wouldn't like it if his wife WAS going to book club, etc., either. Still hope he gets that counseling. |
Well, I agree with you on the counseling. I'm hoping the counseling will help him open his eyes to see that there may be a legitimate basis and real reasons for his insecurities and distrust problems with his wife-- that she may very well be cheating-- Everyone should be secure enough to be able to put two and two together, and/or be able to put their foot down when needed in a relationship. I think he's too afraid to admit to himself what is right under his nose. I hope he gives us an update. |
Folks, This sounds to me like it goes deeper than an insecurity thing. It really comes down to: Do I do what I want to do, or do I respect my spouse enough that I don't want to do something that makes him uncomfortable? GuyGuy, That being said, I'm 35 and have been joyously married for 13 years. I would NEVER go out to a bar without my husband and I certainly wouldn't dance with anyone else. Truthfully, I don't think my husband would mind, but I respect him and my marriage much more than that. If you are doing anything that makes your spouse uncomfortable (within reason - I understand there are some loose screws out there who just want to control their spouse, but that's a different thread) STOP IT NOW. All you are doing is hurtng your marriage. No matter how stupid you may think it is, if it's that important to your spouse, it should be that important to you. Partners should sit down, discuss the problem and come to a workable solution. If a workable solution can not be found, then stop doing whatever it is that hurts the other person. Just my 2 cents. |
His wife should not be going out this much if they have kids! It is selfish and irresponsible. Maybe going out and partying wouldnt matter much in a divorce hearing,but it certainly would in a child custody one. |
If you read the last paragraph of his post you'll see he says HE goes out with his friends and talks cars and goes to races. Where is it you and your guy friends meet, guyguy? The library? He's already admitted he's insecure and suddenly a "babysitter" pops up when no mention of children was made in the original post. Don't you think that would be a pretty huge equation in how we all thoughtfrom the beginning--if it's indeed true. I think my chain's being pulled, so I'm outta here. |
Going to races and talking about cars are different then going to smokey bars and getting drunk. My husband likes races too.He goes to car shows which are family events and takes my daughter with him. Maybe sometimes he takes the kids with him? You cant take kids to a bar though... |
Dancing is a two person event. It involves two bodies, in close motion, in an activity that actively mimics sex (at least, most modern dancing does, and it doesn't sound like the OP's wife is doing the foxtrot). Sorry, but if I found out my husband was dancing with some strange woman, I would be seriously POed. Add in the fact that he knows that it makes me uncomfortable, and if he were to continue to do it (as the OP's wife apparantly does), that would be a serious problem. Also add in the fact that the OP apparantly has been married long enough to have a child, and his wife is running out with her friends on a school night to go clubbing -- that sounds like another serious problem to me. There's a huuuge difference between hanging out with your friends occasionally, versus engaging regularly in activities that usually only single people, or those on the prowl engage in. There's absolutely nothing wrong with him and his buddies hanging out every now and then and talking cars, just as there would be nothing wrong with her and her friends meeting for coffee, shopping, or a movie. Going out every week to grind bodies with strange men? Something totally different. He's not the one with the problem. She is. |
mandy g has nailed my current feelings "GuyGuy, Have you really set her down and had a heart-to-heart with her about the way you feel? Admit jealously, admit insecurities and admit that you understand this may be what is in the way. However, it's still there and it's still a problem. If your wife chooses to ignore your feelings and go out anyway - that's very wrong of her and you should be smelling a rat. If she chooses to stay at home with you (or go somewhere you both enjoy), then hopefully that (and your counselling) should go a long way toward helping your jealous and insecure feelings. Maybe one day, you won't feel that way anymore and will not have a problem with her going out and dancing with someone else." My ffelings have somewhat turned to anger as this situation continues, she went to a rap concert last night at a club because her female friend from school invited her. She asked her mom to babysit so I did not ask my mom until we heard a response from hers. Well that response was at the last minute and was no. She had plans. So I ask my wife "should I ask my mom" my wife says "well the tickets are probably sold out and I did not buy them". Then she asked if I wanted her to go, (she does this all the time but I usually tell her to go) I told her no. Her tone changed and she said "well then find someone to buy my ticket", and she said her friend asked her to go and would be alone. Now later on before she is about to leave I was listening from another room to her conversation with her female friend she is going with and her kid is sick. She is not going to be able to go. WOW, guess what, my wife never mentions this to me and still goes to the club concert. I am no longer crying over her, I have come to realize that she is being inconsiderate of my feelings. I can't believe I was actually feeling bad about being sad, when she continues to go out with friends. I was apoligizing to her for putting her throught this (because it was my fault everything was happening because I am insecure) it is frightning that she let me talk like this and I realize that she might be manipulative. I don't know why but last night I stopped feeling sad and sorry for myself. Now I feel that I deserve respect and i am not just a burden for her. I have sent her a few messages explaining my new feelings and am awaiting a response, I hope this is not one of anger (as that will only make things worse) but one of understanding. Will post back. |
OK, I talked to my W and realize that i had jumped to a few conclusions. She apoligized for going last night and said that she actually met a friend of her moms and went with her. In my wifes past relationships she has been controlled by her boyfriend and this is her 1st relationship where she is being treated fairly and she is afraid that it will change. Therefore she has a hard time with the idea of me telling her not to go out when she feels she has done nothing wrong. She has told me "If clubs were a place only for singles to pick people up, why would that concern me." What she meant by this is that she has no interest in anyone else and that I should trust her in a situation even like that. She repeates that she has no interest in anyone else. She keeps trying to get me to say that I don't trust her. I explain that it is not an issue with her but me. I dont feel confident enough in filling her needs and that the people at the clubs are exactly what I am not. Therefore they would provide something totally different than me. She reiterates that she is not interested in anyone else and is just going to have fun with FRIENDS. On a side note, she brought up a comparison to an incident that happened a few years ago. I used to partake in a recreational drug that my friends often did. Know my wife has a history of abusing a different type of drug. This is why she was bothered by me doing this and she has said that it made her very upset when I would come home under the influence. She relates this to the current situation of me being hurt by her going out and her actions. What she didn't catch and I brought it to her attention is that I quit partaking with my friends. Even though I don't think their is anything wrong with what my friends are doing. So what I am getting at is that I quit doing the behavior that threatened her but when put on her she says that she isn't doing anything wrong and instead we are going to counseling. My W has told me again that every time she goes out except last night, her mother has been with her. She told me that she has been talking to her mother about this situation all along. So I told my W that I would like to talk to her mother also(simply because I have not talked face to face with anyone about this). And I know her mother will be honest because she adores me and has joked that she likes me more than her daughter (we have similar personalities). So I think talking to her will help by getting a 3rd perspective and she knows both of us and is with my W when she goes out. Counseling is still Monday, wish it was sooner. |
I think your wife sounds very selfish, to be frank. |
My husband would tell me I could go to a bar with friends too it I wanted to but I know he wouldn't like it, dancing or no. And I wouldn't like it if he went to a bar or club without me, but he has gone to several Nascar races with friends and he knows I don't care that he does that, that is his hobby, he lets me do whatever when it comes to my Saddleclub and parades. Big difference in having hobbies and going to bars IMO. Not like you could actually have a meaningful conversation with friends over the music. Maybe they need to get a membership to a gym, plenty of fun dancersize (sp?) and arobics there. I have friends that have made a habit of going clubbing leaving hubby as the sitter and the marriage ALWAYS fell apart, maybe there was other problems or they wouldn't of been going to clubs, but the bottom line is I don't know one happily married couple that goes out clubbing without the spouse. |
- Posted by dancingfool (My Page) on Fri, Dec 21, 07 at 13:22
Ok...so I'm sitting here reading this msg and thinking...wow, these ppl that are slamming this guys wife must not be living their own life. If the woman really loves to dance, why should she give up something she loves just because her husband is insecure? So, because guyguy doesn't want to go out and wants to sit on the couch and mope all night means she has to also?? If he's insecure with her out, he's gonna be insecure with her home as well. I know because I used to be like that. You have to stop feeling bad for yourself and just get up and do things! I am married and take ballroom/latin lessons and there's a single guy there that also takes lessons that has become a regular dance partner for me. With latin dancing, that's alot of close body contact, so because my husband doesn't go and is home by himself sometimes when I'm at my lessons...dancing with another man...do you people think I shouldn't be out dancing with another man? My husband is not insecure, he knows he can't dance, but when he can he gets up and just does it! He comes with me when he's not working.(which is generally every night, all night..grrr)...which is another story in and of itself. But when he can, he comes because he knows it's something I love to do. That's what we call a compromise! That's what guyguy should be doing. If his wife loves to dance, go with her and dance...it's soemthing she loves...she shouldn't have to give up dancing because her hubby can't dance...and on the other side of it, she should go to a race or two with you...even though she might not like it...go with you to support you because it's something you love. it's all about compromise and support for one another in the things you each love to do...yes, marriage means living a life together, but not living one life...each has their own separate life and interests. |
- Posted by Airborne!(email@example.com) onMon, Jun 20, 11 at 1:50
Channel your insecurities into a bloodsport on this dude's face(classmate guy). Don't let him leave the club untill you've helped him donate at least a pint of blood to the dancefloor. No man should litterally or figuratively be dry humping another dude's girl, period. Man up, clean that sand outta your ass crack, and establish yourself as the dominant cock in the room. In short, break your foot off in hisass. |
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text:
- Date:19 Nov 2011
- Kick-off:15:00
- Venue:Pittodrie Stadium
- Attendance:8,779
- Vernon (9)
- Higdon (5) Daley (52)
Live Commentary
- 92:43 +2.43
Youl Mawene crosses the ball, Keith Lasley manages to make a clearance.
- 91:00 +1.00
Short corner worked by Tom Hateley.
- 90:13 +0.13
Stephen Craigan fouled by Darren Mackie, the ref awards a free kick. Direct free kick taken by Darren Randolph.
- 89:27
The ball is swung over by Chris Humphrey.
- 87:44
Free kick awarded for an unfair challenge on Jamie Murphy by Darren Mackie. Free kick taken by Darren Randolph.
- 86:26
Mohamed Chalali goes off and Darren Mackie comes on.
- 83:45
Inswinging corner taken by Robert Milsom, Michael Higdon manages to make a clearance.
- 82:51
Isaac Osbourne produces a cross, Darren Randolph makes a comfortable save.
- 82:01
Fraser Fyvie leaves the field to be replaced by Josh Magennis. Corner from the left by-line taken by Robert Milsom, Jamie Murphy makes a clearance.
- 78:49
Outswinging corner taken by Tom Hateley from the right by-line.
- 74:25
Richard Foster gives away a free kick for an unfair challenge on Chris Humphrey. Stevie Hammell has an effort direct from the free kick.
- 73:44
Free kick awarded for a foul by Shaun Hutchinson on Scott Vernon. Direct free kick taken by Richard Foster.
- 72:40
A cross is delivered by Fraser Fyvie.
- 72:03
Richard Foster takes a shot.
- 69:59
Omar Daley leaves the field to be replaced by Chris Humphrey.
- 68:56
Isaac Osbourne takes a shot.
- 65:44
Steve Jennings challenges Mohamed Chalali unfairly and gives away a free kick. Free kick taken by Fraser Fyvie.
- 64:29
Foul by Fraser Fyvie on Omar Daley, free kick awarded. Stephen Craigan takes the free kick.
- 62:02
Foul by Mohamed Chalali on Shaun Hutchinson, free kick awarded. Darren Randolph restarts play with the free kick.
- 60:54
Peter Pawlett replaces Rory McArdle.
- 58:53
Corner from the left by-line taken by Robert Milsom, clearance by Stephen Craigan.
- 58:40
Mohamed Chalali takes a shot. Save by Darren Randolph.
- 57:40
Steve Jennings concedes a free kick for a foul on Scott Vernon. Free kick taken by Fraser Fyvie.
- 52:41
Stephen Craigan delivers the ball, Omar Daley scores a goal from just inside the penalty area to the bottom right corner of the goal. Aberdeen 1-2 Motherwell.The assist for the goal came from Stephen Craigan.
- 51:54
Mohamed Chalali takes a shot.
- 46:17
Corner taken by Tom Hateley, Richard Foster makes a clearance.
- 42:20
The ball is sent over by Chris Clark, Header from deep inside the area by Robert Milsom goes harmlessly over the crossbar.
- 41:53
The ball is sent over by Nicky Law, clearance by Youl Mawene.
- 40:30
Andrew Considine produces a volleyed right-footed shot from 18 yards. Blocked by Shaun Hutchinson.
- 39:33
Richard Foster fouled by Tom Hateley, the ref awards a free kick. Free kick crossed right-footed by Fraser Fyvie.
- 35:53
Keith Lasley gives away a free kick for an unfair challenge on Robert Milsom. Richard Foster delivers the ball from the free kick right-footed from left wing, clearance made by Jamie Murphy.
- 34:24
Tom Hateley challenges Robert Milsom unfairly and gives away a free kick. Richard Foster produces a strike on goal direct from the free kick.
- 27:25
Andrew Considine concedes a free kick for a foul on Michael Higdon. Tom Hateley takes the free kick.
- 27:00
Fraser Fyvie produces a right-footed shot from long range which goes wide right of the target.
- 26:16
Inswinging corner taken by Richard Foster from the left by-line, save by Darren Randolph.
- 23:29
Foul by Scott Vernon on Keith Lasley, free kick awarded. Direct free kick taken by Keith Lasley.
- 21:07
Centre by Richard Foster, clearance by Stevie Hammell.
- 19:33
Chris Clark takes a shot.
- 17:06
Richard Foster crosses the ball, clearance by Shaun Hutchinson.
- 15:36
Inswinging corner taken right-footed by Robert Milsom, Darren Randolph makes a save.
- 15:26
Centre by Chris Clark, Tom Hateley manages to make a clearance.
- 14:57
Scott Vernon is ruled offside. Darren Randolph takes the free kick.
- 14:36
Free kick awarded for an unfair challenge on Youl Mawene by Michael Higdon. David Gonzalez restarts play with the free kick.
- 13:57
Michael Higdon fouled by Andrew Considine, the ref awards a free kick. Shaun Hutchinson takes the direct free kick.
- 13:24
Unfair challenge on Andrew Considine by Michael Higdon results in a free kick. Direct free kick taken by David Gonzalez.
- 12:22
Centre by Chris Clark.
- 9:15
The ball is sent over by Robert Milsom, Scott Vernon finds the back of the net with a headed goal from close in. Aberdeen 1-1 Motherwell.Assist by Robert Milsom.
- 7:17
Shot on goal by Richard Foster from long range goes harmlessly over the target.
- 4:26
Rory McArdle challenges Nicky Law unfairly and gives away a free kick. The ball is swung over by Keith Lasley, Michael Higdon finds the net with a headed goal from close in. Aberdeen 0-1 Motherwell.Keith Lasley provided the assist for the goal.
Match Preview
McCall eyeing Europe Motherwell manager Stuart McCall admits a European place is the ultimate aim for his side this season after their spell in the top two ended, at least temporarily, with defeat by Celtic. With the hype about their lofty position in the Clydesdale Bank Premier League subsiding following their late 2-1 loss, Motherwell travel to Aberdeen on Saturday looking to strengthen their grip on third place. They lead St Johnstone and Hearts by seven points and McCall, despite remaining keen to play down their long-term goals, confessed Europe was in his sights with five Scottish clubs qualifying this season. Motherwell qualified for European football for three consecutive seasons before this one and with a record of eight wins and two draws from 11 games against the teams from outside Glasgow, another overseas campaign beckons if they maintain their early-season form. McCall said: "We don't get beyond ourselves in our dressing room. We've got a target. "At the beginning of the season, top six was our initial aim. "I did expect other clubs to be a bit stronger at this time. Thankfully, there is a bit of a gap. "So we do look at it again and this season, if you finish fifth, there is a European place. We have got to be looking at cementing top five. "If we are still right up there with a couple of weeks ago, then great. "But we are well aware of the size of our squad and what can happen if you lose a bit of form and a couple of players, you can get caught." Motherwell this week re-signed Stephen Hughes on a short-term contract but McCall will stick with the impressive trio of Keith Lasley, Nicky Law and Steve Jennings in midfield at Pittodrie. Defender Tim Clancy begins a two-match ban following his red card against Celtic. Aberdeen manager Craig Brown is refusing to push the panic button over their lowly league position. The Dons head into the match at Pittodrie with only goal difference keeping them ahead of Inverness and off the bottom of the table. But Brown believes that a couple of positive results will be enough to haul them out of the danger zone and back to a respectable place in the standings. The veteran boss said: "I look up the way all the time. When we won two games in a row there recently it made a huge difference. "It was important that we did that and if we do that again it will make a huge difference to our league position. "We don't like where we are at the moment, I can assure you. I certainly don't; none of the players do. "We don't want to remain there so it's up to us." Brown may be a self-confessed Motherwell fan, but insists he will be all out for victory against the third-placed club when his former side arrive in the Granite City. He said: "Every game gives you a lift if you win the match, particularly against a team that's considered to be one of the best. "I'm a bit biased because I'm a Motherwell fan but they are undoubtedly the next best team in the SPL outside the Old Firm. "Although I've got a soft spot for Motherwell, my loyalty is to Aberdeen, totally and completely. "Quite clearly we would love to derail Motherwell a bit but it will take an excellent effort from our own team to get a victory over Motherwell. "Motherwell are an excellent team and Stuart McCall has done a marvellous job there. Great credit to him. "We are going to measure ourselves against third at the moment so we will have a job on our hands." Meanwhile, Brown says he will only start contemplating the prospect of possible compensation for Sone Aluko if and when he signs for Rangers. Aluko, whose Dons contract expired at the end of last season, is currently on trial with the Scottish champions and their boss Ally McCoist admitted he was unsure as to whether Aberdeen would be due cash for the 22-year-old. Brown said: "I haven't heard from Rangers about Sone and I haven't heard from him either so the situation is just as before. "He is apparently on trial at Rangers and we will await the outcome of that trial period. "It's hypothetical to start talking about fees or compensation or things like that. We will cross that bridge when we come to it." Aberdeen will be without suspended duo Rory Fallon and Ryan Jack, while Brown is hopeful Rob Milsom (ankle) and Kari Arnason (hamstring) will feature. Yoann Folly looks set to miss out, though, with a chest problem.
- David Gonzalez
- Rory McArdle
- Youl Mawene
- Richard Foster
- Andrew Considine
- Chris Clark
- Robert Milsom
- Isaac Osbourne
- Fraser Fyvie
- Scott Vernon
- Mohamed Chalali
- Jason Brown
- Darren Mackie
- Peter Pawlett
- Josh Magennis
- Mitchel Megginson
- Jamie Masson
- Jack Grimmer
- Darren Randolph
- Nicky Law
- Stevie Hammell
- Stephen Craigan
- Tom Hateley
- Omar Daley
- Keith Lasley
- Steve Jennings
- Shaun Hutchinson
- Michael Higdon
- Jamie Murphy
- Tom Bradley
- Chris Humphrey
- Ross Forbes
- Gary Smith
- Jonathan Page
- Jordan Halsman
- Stewart Carswell
Match Report
Daley wins it for Well Omar Daley marked his first Motherwell start with the winner as the Lanarkshire side made it four victories from four against Craig Brown's Aberdeen in a 2-1 victory. The Jamaica international fired home from 18 yards in the 53rd minute as Motherwell strengthened their grip on third place in the Clydesdale Bank Premier League. Scott Vernon had quickly levelled after Michael Higdon headed the visitors into an early lead but Aberdeen rarely looked like equalising again. Aberdeen have now failed to beat Motherwell in eight games since Mark McGhee departed Fir Park to take over at Pittodrie in 2009, with Brown faring even worse than his predecessor against his former club. The victory, and the winning goal in particular, was a tactical triumph for Stuart McCall, who changed his formation to accommodate Daley for his first start since joining the club in September. Daley played up front alongside Higdon with Murphy in the hole behind, and the plan worked to perfection as the former Scotland Under-21 international set up the crucial strike. Aberdeen, who were without the suspended Rory Fallon and injured Kari Arnason, had won consecutive home games against Dunfermline and Dundee United before narrow defeats against the Old Firm, but they struggled for creativity, although Mohamed Chalali hit the bar just before Daley's goal. The Dons had not played for three weeks after their match at St Johnstone was postponed before the international break and they were caught cold in the fifth minute. Rory McArdle gave away a needless free-kick near the corner flag for a foul on Nicky Law, who had already lost the ball. Tom Hateley swung the ball in to the near post and Higdon glanced the ball home. The lead only lasted five minutes as Aberdeen scored from their first meaningful attack. The Dons worked the ball to Rob Milsom on the left wing and he swung the ball in quickly before the away defence could shape up. Vernon was unmarked six yards out and he headed the ball down and past the legs of Darren Randolph. Aberdeen took confidence from the goal and pressed for another, and Chris Clark curled not far over from 25 yards. Motherwell regained control of possession for a spell but they could make no inroads in the final third, and Vernon had another headed chance five minutes before the break when Fraser Fyvie's inswinging free-kick found him 12 yards out but he could not make a clean connection. Motherwell dominated possession just after the restart but Aberdeen forced the ball off them to create the first chance of the half. Once again an early cross caused problems as Rory McArdle delivered from the right and Chalali headed the ball off the top of the bar from 15 yards. The visitors went straight up the park and regained the lead. Murphy hooked a bouncing ball over the top of the Dons defence for Daley to run on to. The former Bradford player had Law outside him but he checked back on the edge of the box and shot past two Dons defenders and goalkeeper David Gonzalez into the bottom corner. Chalali threatened again with a powerful 25-yard strike that Randolph parried wide at full stretch but Aberdeen, with Peter Pawlett on for Clark, could not break Motherwell down despite pushing them back at times. Chris Humphrey replaced Daley and gave Motherwell a good outlet on the right wing to relieve the pressure. And the home fans' frustration grew as centre-back Youl Mawene found himself the furthest man forward after winning possession 30 yards from his goal following a Motherwell corner. The move broke down just inside the Motherwell half and the visitors defended in numbers when they had to while continuing to break forward whenever the chance arose to seal their sixth away win of the season. endM
Form Guide
- Aberdeen
- Motherwell WWWDWL
Last Meetings
- Motherwell
- 1 - 0
- Aberdeen
- 24/09/2011
- Motherwell
- 2 - 1
- Aberdeen
- 02/04/2011
- Aberdeen
- 1 - 2
- Motherwell
- 15/02/2011
- Motherwell
- 1 - 1
- Aberdeen
- 18/09/2010
- Aberdeen
- 0 - 3
- Motherwell
- 30/01/2010
- Motherwell
- 1 - 1
- Aberdeen
- 21/11/2009
Top Scorers
- S Vernon 4
- Y Mawene 2
- A Considine 2
- R Foster 1
- K Arnason 1
- R Milsom 1
- R Jack 1
- F Fyvie 1
- M Higdon 4
- J Murphy 4
- K Lasley 3
- T Hateley 2
- S Hammell 1
- C Humphrey 1
- R McHugh 1
- S Hutchinson 1
- Total goals 29
- Goals per game 13
- 1 (For) Period 0-10 mins
- 2 (For) 3 (Against) Period 11-20 mins
- 1 (For) 2 (Against) Period 21-30 mins
- 2 (For) 1 (Against) Period 31-40 mins
- 1 (For) 1 (Against) Period 41-50 mins
- 4 (For) 2 (Against) Period 51-60 mins
- (For) 1 (Against) Period 61-70 mins
- 1 (For) 4 (Against) Period 71-80 mins
- 1 (For) 2 (Against) Period 81-90 mins
- Total goals 34
- Goals per game 18
- 1 (For) 2 (Against) Period 0-10 mins
- 3 (For) 3 (Against) Period 11-20 mins
- 3 (For) Period 21-30 mins
- 1 (For) 1 (Against) Period 31-40 mins
- 1 (For) 1 (Against) Period 41-50 mins
- 2 (For) Period 51-60 mins
- 1 (For) 2 (Against) Period 61-70 mins
- 2 (For) 5 (Against) Period 71-80 mins
- 4 (For) 3 (Against) Period 81-90 mins

subset: commoncrawl


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October was a month full of big games, and undoubtedly, you had some tough choices to make regarding what to buy and play. Among a very strong roster of releases, none stood out as strongly as Dishonored, a dazzling game that takes huge risks at a time in the life of our current-gen consoles when you don't see so many new IPs drop. Its stealth action approach is enthralling and the world of Dunwall is lively and engaging. It's a stout single-player game that's absolutely worth playing.
From its tense action to its awesome hero, make sure you carve out some time for Dishonored.
Read the XCOM: Enemy Unknown review
The follow-up to 1994's strategy PC classic, XCOM: Enemy Unknown puts you in charge of an international coalition working to save humanity from a threat of alien takeover of Earth. Between the fragile alliances and the attachment you'll feel to your squadmates--you must name them, after all--it's a game that organically weaves together tough decisions and enthralling gameplay.
Stabby_Joe - November 1, 2012 6:07 p.m.
Unoriginal - November 1, 2012 11:08 a.m.
avantguardian - November 1, 2012 9:01 p.m.
ObliqueZombie - November 1, 2012 10:41 a.m.
DylaCoughli - November 1, 2012 10:12 a.m.
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Posted on: August 25, 2009 at 7:59PM
When I lived in wonderful Beijing, from 2003 to 2006, Szechuan food was becoming more and more popular, and lots of great places sprang up, many of them really good. My favourite, though, was a modest chain restaurant (in Beijing/China, "chain restaurants" are actually considered rather upscale) called Mei Zhou Dong Po. The branch I frequented was the one on Chunxiu Lu, linking Dongzhimenwai Dajie to Gongti Beilu. It had a wide-ranging menu, from the ubiquitous kung pao chicken (albeit cooked amazingly well) to a really wonderful tomato soup/broth with meatballs. One of the highlights was this great Mandarin fish, boiled and then fried, with a sweet and sour sauce that had just the right balance of flavours. The vegetables there were superb too -- from simple watercress with fresh garlic bits on top to wild mushrooms lightly braised. I loved the service too. At the time, it was still somewhat rare for foreigners to patronize local eateries. Most of my UN ex-pat colleagues went to non-Chinese restaurants in the embassy districts of Dongzhimen and Ritan Park. So the wait staff were more than a bit tickled to see a group of guailo (literally "ghosts" -- "white skins") customers coming there night after night and ordering from a menu that initially was only in Chinese but that, over the space of 3 years, morphed into a bilingual incarnation. One of my colleagues in particular, a wild and adventurous Italian, took delight in ordering new dishes all the time, the rest of us leaving it up to him to help conjure up a different culinary combination every time we went there. I left Beijing in 2006, but still visit at least once a year, and always make it a point to return to that branch of Mei Zhou Dong Po. From a purely social point of view, it's been great to see junior wait staff elevated to positions of "management." The cheeky waiter who spoke some English and loved practicing it on us is now in charge of the little restaurant -- and quite loving his role as boss. The best restaurants are ones where the food and service and atmosphere go hand in hand. This place is certainly a winner. Honest, but not too humble; fun, but not too boisterous. Great food and great folks -- heartily recommended. report a problem


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The candidates touched on a range of issues including gambling, jobs, health care and education.
Health care was a major point of the debate, and the two outlined their opinion of the new federal health care law.
"The health care bill, which passed Congress recently, that will totally take over the health care system in this country: he (Sparks) is very much for that," Bentley said. "I am very much opposed to that."
Bentley said he believes states are "laboratories for change," and they must take the lead in health care policy.
Sparks said he would work with the Legislature in dealing with the new health care law. He said if Alabama does not do so, the state will be missing out on federal dollars and its chance to have its own say in health care.
Discussion of taxes also dominated the evening, and both candidates reaffirmed their pledge to impose no new taxes if they are elected governor.
Sparks, however, took the opportunity to highlight Bentley's past comments on poverty.
"This is the gentleman who looked into the camera and said that poor people can be happy too," Sparks said.
Sparks emphasized his plan to legalize, tax and regulate gambling. He said an education lottery was necessary for more education revenue.
As the conversation shifted to gambling, Bentley affirmed several times that he opposes gambling, but is willing to give a vote to the people of Alabama to decide the matter.
"There is no way you can buy enough lottery tickets to pay for everything that my opponent wants to do in this state," Bentley said. "That is not the answer."
The two explained their state budget priorities as well.
Bentley said Medicaid and the Department of Corrections must be funded before anything else. He added that prison reform was needed to address the number of drug-addicted individuals currently incarcerated in state prisons.
"Our jails should not be the acute detoxification centers of this state," Bentley said. "We need to look at our overall department of corrections and see what changes need to be done."
Sparks said education was his highest budget priority.
"I want to make sure that every child in Alabama—rich or poor—if they want to go to Auburn University, that's exactly where they ought to have an opportunity to go," Sparks said. "I believe in that."
Both candidates expressed optimism for the Nov. 2 vote.
"My campaign's been gaining momentum from day one," Sparks said. "I've said all along, this campaign is a marathon, not a sprint."
Bentley was more straightforward.
"We gonna win," he said.
The debate was the second in a series designed by the Student Government Associations of Auburn and the University of Alabama.


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Sh*t just got real.
Coffee drinks you'll love a latte.
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Which fast food chain will fry the competition?
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So, Britney Spears is no longer engaged to that dude she was engaged to, and obviously the only logical response is the one People chose, which is to lament the end of Britney's "fairy tale." Because all weddings are fairy tales, and literally any man a woman can be engaged to has got to be Prince Charming?
I bet Britney Spears is really sad that she's not getting married, but I'm also not going to assume that she might not also be a little bit relieved. It sounds like that guy was not a particularly good match for her. Sounds like they made the right decision here. What's sadder than a broken engagement? A divorce. What's sadder than a divorce? Staying in a bad marriage until you die.
It's okay to end your engagement. It's okay to end it if you just bought a gazillion dollar ring. It's okay to end it if you've put a $10,000 deposit down on a rooftop venue. It's okay to end it if you're literally opening the doors to the courthouse. This is not something we say to people. But it's true. Keep reading »


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WORLD PREMIERE: Lil' Jon, Meat Loaf, John Rich & Mark McGrath Release 'Celebrity Apprentice' Song [AUDIO]
As this season of Donald Trump's "The Celebrity Apprentice" winds down, the male musicians of the cast have collaborated on a new song and RyanSeacrest.com is giving you the first listen!
Finalists Meat Loaf, John Rich and Lil Jon join eliminated contestant Mark McGrath for "Standing In The Storm," a song that showcases their diverse musical styles. The song will be sold on iTunes and proceeds will benefit all four celebrities' charities.
"It's kind of a rock/country/hip-hop thing," Meat Loaf told George Lopez on "Lopez Tonight." "It's very interesting." Listen to "Standing In The Storm" below:
Part one of the season four finale airs this Sunday, May 15th and Donald Trump has brought on three former 'Apprentice' winners Joan Rivers, Piers Morgan, and Bret Michaels to help aid in the decision.
Friday, Ryan read an exclusive message from Bret, "I'm not about to let the crown go without a fight. I hope this year's apprentices are up to the challenge because the biggest task ahead may just be getting the title from my True Religion jeans."
With only Marlee Matlin, Meat Loaf, Lil Jon, and John Rich left standing, the final four will have to duke it out during the back to back three hour finale, Sunday, May 15th at 9/8c on NBC.


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This is a discussion on Big Brother within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Kerbouchard The people making 10K-15K are already getting much more in gov't benefits then the 1000-1500 that a 10% tax rate would ...
I don't have any questions about the Second Amendment. I also don't read two different interpretations in the plain language of the Second.
Frankly, I think the way the Heller case made it to the Court is contrary to the intent of the judicial system. If he couldn't manage to convince the law makers that the law should be changed, he should have carried for his own protection, and if arrested, used the argument in defense.
If they can't/don't pay their taxes they should be in prison. The 24th was ratified to prevent a specific tax to pay in order to vote.Ok, so if we say that everyone must pay taxes to vote, and some people can't/don't pay those taxes, where does that leave us with the 24th?
Trust fund babies have the same opportunities as every other American. Do some seem to have a leg up? Yes. But some use their inherited wealth to crash and burn. Others use their name/money/family to secure positions because someone else wants to pay them for the value they bring. We do provide an equal opportunity to succeed in that we do not put up barriers to success.But we don't even try to level the playing field and provide an equal opportunity to succeed to everyone. Trust fund babies are the extreme of this example.
Ah, the old 'jobs Americans don't want to do argument.'I would be hard pressed to say that someone making $10K-$15K a year should give 10% in taxes. I do think there needs to be a cutoff point. At some point, the individual needs the money much more than the goverment does. But these people do still contribute IMO. They work the jobs that we don't want to.
There is no point that the individual trumps the whole of society. You may choose not to participate but then you should not expect to take advantage of the services society provides.
Being poor is not an excuse, it is an incentive to improve. Personally, I'm tired of the victim mentality that pervades the entitlement programs. "Look at poor, poor pitiful me. Give me your money so I can survive. And I will force you at gun point (taxes) by voting for people that will write laws to mandate your giving me your hard earned money. Poor, poor pitiful me." And the poor, poor pitiful me crowd is climbing the ladder so that people who are not poor by any stretch are still taking money from the productive. That is why the have-nots should not be allowed to vote.
Last edited by SelfDefense; April 8th, 2008 at 09:01 PM. Reason: typos
There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.
Who is John Galt?
Wow, this is quite the thread. Lots of point and counterpoint. Most of which completely misses the point, although somebody hit on it when they said that democracy can't last because of entitlements.
Eventually there won't be enough net tax payers to support those who don't (military, public teachers, judges, police, elected politicians, etc.)
Ultimately, no form of gov't can last forever. I highly recommend everyone visit mises.org and read "The Ethics of Liberty" by Murray Rothbard. The government does not have our best interests in mind, indeed, over the long run, it can't possibly.
The Ethics of Liberty
The Survival Podcast
How long have we watered the Tree of Deceit with the blood of patriots?
SD wrote: "As to those who don't pay taxes because they "don't have good paying jobs" my answer is they should absolutely be required to pay taxes. It is an abomination that 50% of Americans pay 97% of the taxes yet everyone takes advantage of the security and services government provides. To each according to their need, from each according to their ability."
Nice shot SD. Isn't the last sentence Marx? That's one strange quote to justify the meaning of the previous sentence.
Look, I've no idea if it is true, or propaganda, that 50% of the people pay 97% of the taxes.
For starters---renters, the folks who can't afford to own a home, pay property taxes albeit indirectly. Poor folks pay sales taxes on practically everything they buy. Details vary by state, but sales taxes fall disproportionately on the poor.
And payroll taxes, note, I didn't say income taxes---payroll taxes disproportionately hit the poor.
That "poor old rich guys are getting screwed" argument doesn't really hold water. Besides, they should pay more. They have gained more from society and some of that is due to the infrastructure everyone paid for.
Anyway, "glad" to see you like to quote Marx to justify your position :--
Perhaps, just perhaps I can offer some insight into this. However, please bear with me as I am not so elequent with my words as others.
My first name is Jared and I was born in Febuary of 1983, and I would like it if you would permit me let me speak a bit about my childhood.
My earliest memory is living in rural PA. We lived in a run down old shack of a house, lacking such amenites as clear drinking water and heat. My father had a job and working 6 days a week at a local auto repair shop. However, that was barely enough just to keep a roof over our heads. Things such as the telephone, and electricity were sporatic at best. Sometimes we had them and sometimes we didn't. Food was mostly covered by our little garden plot/orchard and whatever my father could shoot the night before, wether legal or not. Groundhog and rabbit were very common meals.
When I was eight years old we moved to West Virginia hoping for a better life, due to the lower cost of living and taxes. As it turned out that hope was in vain. There were just no jobs in WV at the time. So still we ate what we grew and what was killed.
That remained the same until I was in middle school. Then we moved down to NC in yet another attempt to start over. Here we lived in a trailerpark in a trailer built in the 70's. The roof leaked, there was no heat or ac, the windows would not close, and the floorvents went straight to the ground. Also, if one were not carefull one would recieve an electric shock from the dryer outlet when attempting to enter the bathroom.
This was the first time in my life I had seen two things, one was neighbors less than half a mile away, and the other was the so called "government assistance". Sure my family recieved the free lunches at school. But things such as foodstamps and welfare were unheard of. Also at this time my parents had seperated and my father refused to pay child support. So my mother attempted to pay all the bills and support 3 children on a $3.75 an hour job working at the local McDonalds.
Needless to say this did not work out too well, so we were then thrown into the governmental housing, as part of some sort of racial diversity requirement. (we were only whites in the neighborhood).
The courts, social services and all those nice governmental programs that people claim are there to help the poor did nothing for my family.
Social Services and the courts had decided not to persue the child support claim based of the suspicison that my mother was making money on the side doing illegal activites. (I will let your collective imaginations figure out what exactly) Instead they merely sent us to charities for clothing and winter coats.
The free lunch program was mostly permissable for us children. As was the medicaid program. Both would be periodically cut off for "review". This resulted in many missed meals and expensive surprise doctors visits.
Food stamps were still another matter. By this point my mother was working at a pay rate of 4.16 an hour 30 hours a week at the local warehouse for a grand total of $6,240 per year supporting 3 children without help of anyone else. During the many attempts to aquire food stamps she ran into the same problem again and again. She would go in for the interview, they would see she was white and say something along the lines of " No white person would ever be in this situation if it were not their own fault.", and the application would eventually be denied for some made up reason.
Now the reason why that is important is because everyone else in the rest of the neighborhood would brag about how much they recieved from the government in welfare monies or foodstamps. Foodstamps were often sold to drug dealers in exchange for either cash or drugs. Cash would go for a 2 to 1 ratio. As in 10 dollars in food stamps would net you 5 dollars in real money. This was no small amount of money either, often the money that would change hands would be several hundred dollars worth per household every month.
If they were not sold often the food stamps would be used to purchase, steak, premade meals, or even crab legs. If sold for money it would be used at least in part to purchase new designer shoes, or other clothing, music CDs or car assessories. Whatever made you cool.
Other programs such as the Earned Income Tax Credit were and are an even bigger joke. I can speak from experiance that the majority of people who claim it know exactly down to the very dollar how much they can make before it cuts into that "credit". They would sit outside and talk about how they could only work 4 more days that month before they had to quit, and start going back to selling drugs or working under the table. Or some job gave them a raise so they had to quit because it messed up their numbers.
That type of mentality was even worse because it extended down to how they treated their children. The most important example I can give is a time when I helped a friend of mine in that neighborhood get passing grades in his classes. Everything was fine until the report card came. I still remember what happened then. The boy was beat for trying to be "Better than his parents, and his people, by being too white" (Direct quote) and then ordered to fight me and win since I was trying to take away his heritage. (This was at the playground in front of all the children and some of the parents.)
Among other highlights of this great neighborhood.
was a No-Knock raid a few weeks after a methlab blew up.
Constant harassment by the police as I walked to school or work for "hanging around such a bad neighborhood." They thought I was purchasing drugs, although in all fairness never was the same officer twice.
The eventual eviction based off of many politically motivated things. As told to us by the person in charge of such things. (The whole you don't "deserve" to be here thing again.)
My point, the entire point of this little story is to say this:
All of you so called champions of the poor. Those who wish to make (in my opinion) themselves feel better, by helping those so called "have nots" by punishing the so called "haves" STOP IT!!
You know nothing of what it is like to live in that type of situation, you know nothing of the reasons why people end up there. I spent 19 years of my life in that hell, and I can promise you the few paragraphs of text I place upon this forum are nothing but drops in the sea of abuses and horrors I have experianced, that others like me have experianced.
The fact of the matter is that people stay there because they want to be there. They like it there, and do not want to leave themselves nor their children. Why would they? Why should they? Everything they want is handed to them on silver platters, and all they have to do to keep is is continue to vote for the ******* that keeps handing them all the little goodies. That is right their votes are bought and paid for by your taxdollars.
Those few who do get out do so by hard work and preseverence. Often they loose all their family and all they know in the process, for they have become the enemy, one of the evil "haves". One of those blacks who want to be white or whatever.
Government cannot and will not fix this problem, because the problem was caused by the government or at least made worse by it. It is time to face facts, The Great Society has failed, as it was destined to, and we are all paying the price.
Most if not all of those who live in such "poverty" do so because of their own actions, and nothing short of their own actions will take them out of it. Besides the children, the only victims I see are those who work hard, and pay their taxes to support such people who refuse to fend for themselves. This is the land of opportunity, not handouts. One should have to earn what they have, not be given it by the government.
Also I am sure that there are hundreds of statistics that support the opposite , or even the same opinion as mine, and that much smarter and far more schooled men/women can forever debate the subject Noting example after example. All I can say to that is that they do not convey the true situation. Only living it and seeing it can.
Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.
Good post Shadow...
the "government" will do nothing to eliminate "programs" because those people are under their total control.Its a form of enslavement, and only the smart ones that refuse to stay in those programs realize it.
I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.
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awesome post Shadow!
"Just blame Sixto"
Thanks for sharing, Shadow. Great read, and congrats on not only surviving, but succeeding.
A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.
Thanks for the post Shadow...I just disagree with one part
I believe you expressed yourself quite well.However, please bear with me as I am not so elequent with my words as others.
There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.
Who is John Galt?
Shadow, I'm not saying that abuses don't happen, the system is rampant with them, and that part is broken and needs to be fixed. But there are people that truly do need help getting back on their feet, and that is what the system is meant for.
It sounds like you had a rough life, and it left you bitter about the welfare system. But I have a different experience. I too have "lived it and saw it". An embarrassing part of my past that I rarely talk about is that after my father left my mother with 3 young kids, age 4 and under, and refused to pay child support, we lived on welfare and foodstamps for a while. All of my clothes were hand me downs from my cousins, bought at the salvation army, or homemade.
But my mother used that welfare check to pay for our home and utilities, and the food stamps and free lunches kept us alive. Without this assistance, I might not be here today.
Our story has a happy ending though. After a few years of dating, not many guys want a "ready made family", my mother found a man she married and he adopted me and my sisters, and I call him dad, not my biological father, who I didn't see again until after I turned 18, but that's another story. My mother and father both worked hard, and my mother got her real estate license. She now owns her own real estate company and my dad retired. They've been buying and selling land for a few years now, and right now are subdividing 212 acres they bought into .5-1 acre plots. They're doing Ok.
Maybe that's why I support the system, because I too have seen it first hand. But it helped my family. It worked exactly the way it was supposed to. It kept us alive until we could get back on our feet.
I know that the system is abused and that needs to stop. Women that are just "baby factories" so they can keep getting the goverenment checks, drug dealers, etc. should be removed from the system. It should have limits. But it does need to stay in some form to help families like mine.
I do not know exactly how long ago you went through the system. Perhaps at one point it was better than it is now. I do not know, I just know how it is now, and it is truely beyond repair.
If you or anyone wants to do actual help to those in the system I would highly reccomend private charities such as the Boys and Girls club,any local church, or other such organization. In general they are far cheaper than anything the government does, and far more effective. Also with the case of the BaGC their main lesson is personal responsibility so the kids learn and are encouraged to get out of there.
Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.
I guess the area that you lived in was pretty bad, but the people on welfare are not all like that. Please don't paint the entire group with one brush based on your experiences. I know quite a few people, other than my own family, that were on welfare at one point in time, some recently, and they used it until they could stand on their own. This system is still needed to help people get on their feet.
Is it abused? Yes, big time. But there are rules for the system that are being ignored by both the cheaters and the case workers that allow them to cheat. I said before that there should be some sort of limit on the system to ensure people don't stay on it forever. That would help.
Another thing that would help is to prosecute the rule breakers. Taking a support system from those that need it most because of some people that break the law is kind of like disarming the entire country to keep the guns from the criminals...
Their problem isn't that they want to get on their feet. They are already on their feet and pressing down on our necks. You were on the system for a few years. I was dirt poor for 19 years, and on the system heavily for 6.
The way you change behavior is to punish the type that one finds unacceptable and reward the type one finds acceptable. Take a long hard look at the current situation, and try to tell me that you do not honestly beleive we are generally rewarding people for not working.
What exactly would you consider poverty in the United States?
Because here is an quote of an article on the subject.
The Wall Street Journal Online - Featured ArticleIn other words poverty is relative, and in the U.S. a large 45.9% of the "poor" own their homes, 72.8% have a car and almost 77% have air conditioning, which remains a luxury in most of Western Europe. The average living space for poor American households is 1,200 square feet. In Europe, the average space for all households, not just the poor, is 1,000 square feet.
Basically the rundown of the situation is that the average poor person in the US has a better standard of living than the average middle income person in Europe.
You have known quite a few people, I have known literally hundreds. I am sorry but just because they are all not the way I have experianced does not mean that too many of them are to fix the problem. Especially when the true problem is the attitude of entitlement and class warfare. Why work hard when you can get it for free?
Money and welfare cannot fix an attitude. Only hard work and reality can. Governmental welfare is not reality. People need to face the consequences of their actions or they will degrade into what we see now.. Welfare stops that from happening.
Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.


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College of Law › About the College of Law › News, Events, and Multimedia › News › Blog by TU Law Student competing for "country's best" title
Monday, December 03, 2007
Your vote can help Brett McKay's "The Frugal Law Student" blog win the JDs in Training category of American Bar Association Journal's competition.
The American Bar Association Journal has selected "The Frugal Law Student," a blog written by a student from the University of Tulsa College of Law, as one of the top 100 law blogs in the country.
Now readers have the chance to vote for their favorites in 12 categories, and TU's Brett McKay is hoping you will vote for his blog about penny-pinching techniques.
Votes can be placed at: http://www.abajournal.com/blawgs/blawg100/students. Voting continues until Jan. 2.
McKay, a second-year law student from Edmond, Okla., earned his bachelors degree from the University of Oklahoma. He competes on the law school's Board of Advocates team, is a member of the J. Ruben Clark Law Society and contributes to Dicta, the law school's student newspaper.
"The Frugal Law Student" began with simple tips for students on a tight budget and has grown into one of the more popular personal finance blogs on the web, with nearly 700 subscribers and monthly traffic approaching 24,000 visitors.
After law school, McKay plans to move on to another blog project while practicing in Tulsa.
College of Law3120 East Fourth PlaceTulsa, Oklahoma 74104PH: 918.631.2401FAX: 918.631.3126


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The naira depreciated to the lowest in more than two weeks against the dollar on accumulated demand for the U.S. currency following the central bank's decision to reduce sales to foreign-exchange bureaus.
The currency of Africa's biggest oil producer retreated 0.2 percent to 157.905 per dollar as of 12.15 p.m. in Lagos, the commercial capital, its weakest since March 13, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
The Central Bank of Nigeria on March 18 cut dollar sales to each bureau by 25 percent to $75,000 dollars per week, without giving a reason. The regulator raised the weekly sales to $100,000 in August in an attempt to reduce demand pressure and stabilize the naira.
"There is demand pressure at the interbank market from bureau de change after the central bank cut sales to operators," Abubakar Muhammed, chief executive of Lagos-based Forward Marketing Communications Bureau De Change, said in a phone interview. "Pressure from the accumulated demand is exposing the naira to depreciation."
Nigeria sold $150 million at a foreign-currency auction yesterday, with the marginal rate gaining by less than 0.1 percent to 156.01 per dollar, the central bank said.
The regulator left its key interest rate unchanged at 12 percent for a third consecutive meeting on March 20 to curb inflation and stabilize the local currency.
Nigeria sold domestic bonds due 2019 at a yield of 15.30 percent yesterday, 86 basis points lower than the 16.16 percent at a previous auction on Feb. 29, the Abuja-based debt management agency said today. The yield on the country's $500 million of dollar bonds due 2021 fell five basis points to 5.315 percent.
Ghana's cedi appreciated 0.5 percent to 1.7717 per dollar in Accra, the capital.


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Michelle's Frequently Used Recipes
(6 Recipes) Created by MICHELLEMAGI
Recipes in this Collection
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Submitted by MICHELLEMAGI Carbs: 17.7g | Fat: 6.4g | Fiber: 1g | Protein: 3.3g | Calories: 140.7
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Submitted by MICHELLEMAGI Carbs: 28.4g | Fat: 5.3g | Fiber: 2.1g | Protein: 3.1g | Calories: 159
Vindaloo is one of my favorite dishes in the world! This spicy Indian curry can be made vegetarian or with meat and is packed with spices. For those new to Indian cooking, I simplified the spice list, choosing five you might already have on hand. Submitted by CHEF_MEG Carbs: 61g | Fat: 4.8g | Fiber: 16.2g | Protein: 14.5g | Calories: 330.7
Technically this is a crustless quiche, but the addition of flour makes for a delicious crusty bottom and sides. Submitted by JENNLOVE Carbs: 13.7g | Fat: 4.6g | Fiber: 2.2g | Protein: 10.3g | Calories: 134.1
A double-hitter: Each portion has almost two servings of vegetables. Submitted by CHEF_MEG Carbs: 47.5g | Fat: 2.1g | Fiber: 10.4g | Protein: 8.6g | Calories: 228.3
These bean cakes are yummy and great for you. Served with the salsa, it makes a very colorful and festive presentation. I serve these with a lite side salad. Plenty of protein and fiber. Even my meat loving hubby loves this meal. Submitted by BCJL13 Carbs: 48.3g | Fat: 6.1g | Fiber: 13.6g | Protein: 14.2g | Calories: 294.2


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This Dave Graney's first gig in Darwin for a decade so don't miss it. Tickets available on-line at
Emerging from the early 80′s post punk scene with the Moodists and later with the White Buffaloes and the Coral Snakes, Dave Graney has been been one of Australia's most interesting (and best dressed) independent musicians. Although awarded an ARIA in 1996 for "Best Male Vocalist", Dave Graney has firmly remained outside the mainstream and mined his own seam of rock and roll that incorporates elements of lounge, cabaret and strange psychedelic country. The Happy Yess is absolutely thrilled to announce that Dave Graney and his band The Lurid Yellow Mist will perform in The Brown's Mart courtyard on June 11. This will be a special night as Dave launches his new his new album "Rock and Roll is Where I Hide" and his rock memoir "1001 Australian Nights" (which has been described by Mess and Noise as "a heroic book") charting Graney's weird journey through the Oz rock dreamscape.


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When I was a first-year student at the University of Virginia, my faculty adviser – a wise and wizened leprechaun named Marcus Mallett – put me into a class entitled HIUS 109: US History from 1789 to 1815.
Note those dates. A 15-week course devoted to 26 years of American history.
At that time, a 100-level course was a first-year graduate class. Here I was, three months out of Thomas Dale – where my social studies courses had been, shall we say, less than challenging – sitting around a table with 14 grad students and one other undergrad. The course was nominally a seminar, but our professor, Mr. William Ellis, lectured like a machine-gun on espresso.
His first two lectures were on the "historiography" of the Federal period of American history. I' d never heard the word "historiography" before. I'd never heard of the brilliant historians who clashed so learnedly and passionately over the reasons for the American Revolution, the motives of the framers in drafting the Constitution and the struggle for its ratification.
I took five pages of notes, on legal pad, each of those first two days. I bought the required reading: 15 paperbacks, averaging 400 pages. I seriously considered dropping the course.
After all, it was my first semester of college. I had two other demanding courses, microeconomics and a philosophy course in ethics, plus French and international organizations. (The last looked to be a "gut" – archaic Wahoo for an easy A). But still, there was fraternity rush. There were new worlds to explore: Mary Washington, Mary Baldwin, Sweet Briar, Hollins, etc.
Where would I find the time for all the catching up I would need to do to survive this course, much less to read 15 books?
Ultimately, I stuck it out because, of all my courses that semester – of all the courses in my entire college career – Mr. Ellis' was the most consistently fascinating. I read all 15 books. I took copious notes, and copied them over after class, filling in gaps from my reading or by asking questions at the next class. And I learned an incredible amount.
I wish every American could take a course like that one. If they could, there would be none of the dangerous nonsense we hear these days about the "original intention" of the founders. There would be no patience for the legal fundamentalism which insists, in the face of all evidence, that the Constitution was intended to be a stagnant contract, written in stone, unchanging across the centuries.
Instead, Americans would understand that the framers of our Constitution had very different, often fiercely conflicting, ideas about what it meant. But they all understood, as did those who fought against its ratification, that the Constitution was a scaffolding, a basic framework to be filled out over time, in light of changing circumstances, by living men.
The framers who sweated through the summer of '87 were lawyers – or men who dealt much with lawyers. They were inheritors of the English system of the Common Law, a jurisprudence based on the ability of judges to "find the law" in older cases, applying imprecise "precedents" to new situations by analogy.
They were well-read in the philosophy of the 17th century Whig philosophers and 18th century Enlightenment thinkers, who believed in a "natural law," accessible by reason, which took precedence over all man-made institutions.
They were products of a world that was changing rapidly, but they did not fear that change. Rather, they sought to build a ship of state capable of withstanding the most turbulent seas, taking advantage of every wind and tide as it made its way ever forward.
Most of the framers were not, as some now insist, conventionally religious men. Washington, Franklin, Madison and Hamilton shared with the absent Jefferson and Adams a greater or lesser degree of the rationalist outlook known as Deism. But they believed firmly in a divine providence that would bless a nation dedicated to such rational principles was as the new United States.
And because our founders were wise men of great practical experience, as well as self-taught philosophers who believed in the power of human reason, the institutions they created have proved remarkably adaptable over two centuries and more of remarkable change.
Lincoln, among the greatest of their intellectual descendants, said it very well:
"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country."
Forty-one years since I first sat in Mr. Ellis' class, I can still remember a remarkable amount of what I learned there. I wish every American could be so fortunate.


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20 Words That Take on Totally Different Meanings After Kids
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The hot weather combined with active get-togethers create the perfect combination for accidents just waiting to happen in the form of dog bites.
I made the switch from dry kibble to healthier dehydrated raw and my dogs love it!
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Priscilla Presley Finds it "a dream come true" Being A Grandmother For Fourth Time
Priscilla Presley, 63, says it's a "dream come true" to become a grandmother for the fourth time after daughter Lisa Marie gave birth to fraternal twin girls Harper and Finley on Tuesday, October 7th. Speaking at the Dream Foundation charity event in Santa Barbara on Friday, she said,
It's been a real delight entering into the room and seeing these two little babies – it's been pretty terrific. She also revealed first time dad Michael Lockwood is "a little nervous." She continued, He's a first-time dad, so it's the most beautiful thing to watch the way he holds and carries the babies. It's so endearing to watch how delicate he is. |
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Smoke-Roasted Racks of Lamb with Garlic Rosemary Rub
Servings: 4
Course: Entrees
Alder wood smoke lends its subtle support to this recipe highlighting the tenderness of perfectly-cooked lamb and the flavors of rosemary and garlic.
Prepare the grill for indirect cooking at 350 to 375°F.Let the lamb racks rest and come up to room temperature for about 20 minutes. While they are doing so, prepare the savory rosemary rub by combining the garlic, rosemary, lemon zest, salt and pepper.Brush the lamb racks on all sides with olive oil. Press the savory rosemary rub onto all sides except the two ends of each rack.
Wrap the exposed bones with aluminum foil to prevent the bones from burning and becoming brittle. Place the lamb racks in the indirect cooking zone with the bone-side down, and the bones pointed away from the heat source. Add the alder wood chips for smoke (learn about smoking techniques) and roast with the hood closed until an instant-read thermometer measures 135 to 140°F, about 30 to 40 minutes.
Remove the lamb from the grill and let it rest for about 2 minutes before slicing. Slice the racks into chops and serve on a pre-heated platter.
Try this recipe with sides of Roasted Cauliflower.
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