text:
Our counters-to-be, if all goes well.
Does anyone have experience with Calacatta Macaubus quartzite? |
Follow-Up Postings:
- Posted by muskokascp (My Page) on Mon, Jan 9, 12 at 18:15
Beautiful. We have the Macabus quartzite and have found it to be very durable . It has been installed for 6 or 7 weeks I think now. It has had all manner of stuff spilled on it and left. No stains, etches or anything..cleans like a dream. I love it love it love it. I do have pictures give me sec to find and post them. |
- Posted by muskokascp (My Page) on Mon, Jan 9, 12 at 19:44
These were taken the day of install. Since then the backsplash and window ledges have also been installed - also quartzite. |
Thanks, muskokascp- lovely stuff! I like the backsplash idea, too. I'm so tired of subway tiles being suggested everywhere. How far up do they go? |
Do you mind telling me approximately how much the Macabus Quartzite costs? We are at the beginning stages of planning our remodel and I LOVE the look of marble, but would prefer something that is easier to maintain. Absolutely gorgeous slab/counter! |
Looks beautiful. I need to find somewhere to see that quartzite in person! Can you tell me about your floors? |
muskokascp, I was the one who asked you to update us on your kitchen way back when you selected your slab since white macaubas/luce di luna was one of the ones I liked months ago when I initially went to the stone yard. It looks fantastic in your kitchen! I can't wait to see your completed kitchen! ajones.sd, I can tell you that my local stoneyard gives contractor pricing of $45 per square foot or $2625 a slab for the white macaubus. It was the priciest of all of the quartzites I looked at aside from one other called Cristalo that was $85 per sf. The next one down was $38.45. In comparison Bianco Romano granite was $19.95. White Rhino and Afyon White marbles were $35. Calacatta Gold was $55 (the only other item that was pricier). Calacatta Manhattan, White Venetino (both 3 and 5 cm) and all thicknesses of Carrara (including 5 cm) were less expensive. Stone pricing is very interesting indeed! Now that I actually have a budget in front of me and square feet, I'm trying to calculate where we'll end up. I deviated I know. I can't wait to relook at stone once our cabinet selection gets narrowed down! |
- Posted by muskokascp (My Page) on Tue, Jan 10, 12 at 8:36
NaRo - the backsplash is just that very small area between the counter and the start of the window -something like 7" but it runs about 8' below each of 2 windows and it is also the to ceiling behind the cooktop which is about 4 feet wide, also both window ledges. It is really nice and super easy to wipe down. As for price - our stone guys do not quote per square foot as they are the supplier and fabricator. They quote a finished price which is dependent on the cut outs and edge selected. The only thing I priced which was higher was calacatta marble. So, not an inexpensive stone but a great alternative to marble without the marble issues of etching and chipping. lafacia - the floors are red oak stained with Jacobean from Minwax(Duraseal). |
I HATE the way you can't get stone yards to quote you prices-- drives me bats. In our area, you have to get a fabricator to come up with a price. Slows everything down, and makes it very hard to do apples-to-apples comparisons. We found what muskokascp did-- that to get the look of marble without marble's maintenance issues, it costs quite a bit. This is our lifetime home, though, and spread over decades, it's less of a shock to the pocketbook. |
This is very helpful, especially since it sounds like I might not be able to get prices at the stone yard Thanks. |
muskokascp, one other question-- did you seal your countertops? |
- Posted by muskokascp (My Page) on Wed, Jan 25, 12 at 14:52
No they came sealed..not sure what product was used. I will ask what they used and how often we should reseal when they are here next week installing some caesarstone for us. |
- Posted by 2LittleFishies (My Page) on Sun, Jan 29, 12 at 12:19
Anyone else have this beautiful stone? Is it really resistant to stains and etching? Just lovely : ) |
- Posted by love2decor8 (My Page) on Fri, Feb 24, 12 at 21:02
muskokascp, that is the most beautiful counter I have ever seen. I am just north of Toronto and I would love to know where you sourced your calcutta macaubus quartzite. I have only seen black quartzite in my travels (Van Gogh). Thanks so much! |
- Posted by muskokascp (My Page) on Fri, Feb 24, 12 at 21:40
With my name it would seem I am also north of TO but I am now on the East Coast..sorry to disappoint. I would suggest contacting Ciot to see of they can help. Don't give up though. it took me a year of looking to find this stone so depending on how much time you have ...stick with the search. |
I just bought a slab for our island. I took home a piece and tested it with acid, stains, etc. I couldn't get anything to damage it. It passed all tests with flying colors! |
HELP! I am upset. I'm the original poster. The stone yard said it simply could not cut off a sample b/c the stone was so hard it required a diamond saw or somesuch. They swore up and down it was bulletproof, doesn't stain, doesn't etch. We swore up and down that if that was the case, yes, we wanted it, and the fabricator bought it for us and broke off a piece. I just put some lemon juice on it, and washed it off after 20 minutes or so. I'm seeing a shaded couple of areas where the juice was. Not exactly matching the puddle's "footprint." I suppose maybe they were there before and I didn't notice, but I am worried. I'm having my husband repeat the experiment. |
- Posted by 2LittleFishies (My Page) on Mon, Feb 27, 12 at 21:29
Is it sealed? |
I'm not sure. Does sealing help etching? Or maybe this is staining... it's not like the surface is melted-looking. |
OK here's an update. Test 2 didn't show much of anything. But test three-- lemon juice left on for an hour or so-- showed a shadow afterward. The surface stayed polished, and did not get rough ( i.e. it was NOT like what happened when I tried lemon juice on honed marble and it looked "melted.") There was a slight darkening where some of the lemon juice had been, like a shadow. Does this sounds like etching? STaining? Will sealing help (I don't think it's sealed)? or do I have a very expensive problem on my hands? Thanks for any guidance you can give-- NaRo |
- Posted by 2LittleFishies (My Page) on Mon, Feb 27, 12 at 23:54
Anything darker than the normal color is a stain. If it is sealed until water beads that shouldn't happen. Why don't you try your test with plain old water and let it sit? Will water "bead" on it? Etching is like lemon on marble and it only takes seconds (if that) to happen. Faster than you can grab a rag it will be etched. Etching changes the finish on the stone in a certain light but otherwise you can't see it at every angle. I am NO expert and am only repeating what I have read on GW. Even most granites need to be sealed or else water will absorb and get darker. Sealing would probably do the trick. On my marble samples when water absorbed it in got dark but actually that would "dry up" after a few hours? and be gone so why don't you check it tomorrow? However, since you used lemon that may actually stain vs. the water. Just a guess. Just read your last post again. If it stayed polished, that is not etching. |
- Posted by 2LittleFishies (My Page) on Mon, Feb 27, 12 at 23:57
PS- I'd talk to your stone yard. I know every piece of stone is different even from the same TYPE of stone... |
Thank you.. I did quiz the stone yard vigorously, and they insisted it was bullet-proof. I'm doing the oil test and it's not absorbing so far, so that's good... I'll see what it looks like in the morning. All guidance appreciated... |
Please keep us updated. I know water on granite dries up fairly quickly, but I'd be shocked if lemon could stain quartzite, from everything I've read. Be interested to know how this goes! |
Wow-- This morning, the stains are all but gone! I think I can still see the faint outline of one patch, maybe, but I'm not even sure about that. I have read in passing about stains disappearing from some stone countertops, but I've never seen it in person before. Can anyone explain to me how it happens? Really slow evaporation? Or maybe some kind of quartzite monster, related to the sock monster that lives in the dryer and makes socks disappear? |
- Posted by clarygrace (My Page) on Tue, Feb 28, 12 at 12:49
NaRo, thank you for posting on quartzite, your slab is absolutely beautiful! We have just decided against marble and looking for alternates, so this is great information! Good to hear it is quasi bullet proof. Hopefully we can find quartzite readily here in the DC area! Please provide update when installed! |
Clarygrace, we love the look of marble, but it would be disastrous for us from a maintenance standpoint. Seriously, I'm the world's worst housekeeper. We saw the calacatta macaubus and thought, "that's it!" Our inspiration kitchen had another quartzite-- mother of pearl, I think, or maybe they styled it madre de perla-- that was beautiful white and marble-y. The particular slabs of mother of pearl we found in stone yards, though, turned colors that didn't work for our space. It might be worth calling around to see if local yards have light-colored slabs of quartzite, making sure you're being understood, b/c people hear "quartz countertops" and they think you're asking about one of the manufactured quartz products. Some of which are great-looking, too. |
- Posted by muskokascp (My Page) on Wed, Feb 29, 12 at 11:08
Hi NaRo, We have had our quartzite for several months now and have had all manner of things left on it for varying periods of time. I saw no evidence of etching or staining until last weekend. I am not even sure what to call it and even more unsure if it is still there. I keep forgetting to look - I will try to remember tonight. Basically there was a bag containing old asparagus that someone pulled from the fridge to compost and left it in the far corner of the counter for a good 24 hrs. A bunch of the yucky liquid that forms around rotting vegetables spilled onto the counter and seeped under a container that was sitting beside it. When I finally picked this up and cleaned the liquid from the surface, there was an outline of the liquid on the counter but I could only see it at a certain angle with the light just so..much like some etching is only visible in certain light. I have to say my first panicked thought was my stone etched. However, with close inspection the polished surface was still present. I tried cleaning it but nothing changed. The next day it was much less visible and when I looked a few days ago I couldn't really see it. So - perhaps it needs more sealing or the wetness darkened the stone? Not sure but I will look again and report. |
- Posted by Jumpilotmdm (My Page) on Wed, Feb 29, 12 at 12:02
You can get a quote from the stone yard like GM will sell you a car! Try the DEALER, that's why they're there. Trying the lemon juice thing is like training a garden hose on a skylite. It will probably leak. Quartzite does not need to be sealed by virtue of the way it is made. It's BEAUTIFUL. Install it and use it with common sense and you'll be happy. Don't invite trouble. There is no perfect surface. |
Jumpilotmdm, I know us well enough to know that we sometimes lack common sense-- or more accurately, we can get absent-minded, and I could just see me or my hubby leaving some evil counter-killing substance on the counter for a day. That's why I insisted on the lemon juice test. As long as we're spending this kind of money, we are going to get something we really like that's is also close to bulletproof. I think we've found that. We also lucked out on a Super White remnant from our fabricator for our master bathroom. She says it is a marble, but I wonder because it's more buletproof than the quartzite, as far as we can tell. Whatever it is, it's beautiful, and perfect for the space. As for stone yards-- and I'm using that term generically to cover actual yards, showrooms, tile and surface boutiques, and other vendors who have a bunch of slabs you can look at-- the experience in our city is definitely not car-dealer-like. They simply will not talk price, not to you and not to your contractor. You have to go through a fabricator to get any pricing info at all, which is annoying. |
WOW!!! That's BEAUTIFUL!!! |
- Posted by muskokascp (My Page) on Thu, Mar 1, 12 at 6:51
I had a good look last night at the counter. There is nothing there..couldn't even see a hint of the spill. I guess the stone was discolored from the liquid and just needed to dry. So, back to my original statement - the stone ( mine anyway) appears to be bullet proof. |
- Posted by 2LittleFishies (My Page) on Thu, Mar 1, 12 at 7:52
Is anyone able to share the cost of this stone per sq. ft? |
2LittleFishies, I posted my local pricing (pre-fabrication) above. You must have missed it. That's for the New Orleans area. It's going to vary place to place. |
- Posted by muskokascp (My Page) on Thu, Mar 1, 12 at 11:23
I would expect to pay $100-$125/sq ft or more in some places. |
I have criss cross white macuba quartzite and have had no problems with staining or etching. However, it is very pricey. I paid about $200 sq/ft in the NYC area. |
Ours was around $75 / sq ft installed in Houston. |
Shareher, can you tell me where in Houston you found this quartzite? |
- Posted by michelle16 (My Page) on Sat, Mar 24, 12 at 12:20
I just bought two slabs and it cost roughly 90 sq foot |
Olympus marble. They had quite a lot of lab when we looked. |
- Posted by island_obsession (My Page) on Thu, May 10, 12 at 8:27
muscokascp - your counters are gorgeous! not just a good solution to the cararra maintainance issues, but somehow even more beautiful than marble! our supplier has it on their website so i'll be calling this morning to see if it is actually stocked. seems like it might be hard to get a piece with the beautiful veining you have, rather than the beautiful, but more linear, look i've seen. we are also looking at blanco quartzite from this dealer, but it must go by other names because i can't find it on GW anyway . . . apparently it will cost me TWICE what carrara would so i'm very glad to hear that your "stains" disappeared! sounds like you did polished - what is the advice on polished vs. honed with white quartzites? thanks! |
- Posted by carissafox (My Page) on Fri, Jun 15, 12 at 11:45
yes... please Shareher... would you share where you found your quartzite in Houston? thanks a ton! |
- Posted by carissafox (My Page) on Fri, Jun 15, 12 at 17:06
Shareher... read through again and saw you already answered! thanks! i rushed over to Olympus before they were closing for the weekend. sure enough they had white quartzite! very helpful too! and wow their new showroom is gorgeous! yay! now to make this decision. white quartzite or caesarstone. my brain might explode! :) |
Carissafox---They also did a great job with the installation. It looks great and seems very durable. |
- Posted by toronto331 (My Page) on Sun, Nov 11, 12 at 12:59
Can someone tell me where they purchased these countertops? I'm interested in somewhere in Canada. I love these but I can't seem to find them. |
- Posted by donttakeitforgranite (My Page) on Sun, Dec 2, 12 at 23:51
NaRo......a couple things I wanted to mention....there is nothing called Calacatta White Macaubus. First, Calacatta is an extremely expensive marble. Second, White Macaubus is a quartzite which has marble "tendencies" because it is a cross between a marble & a granite. Anything acidic will etch the finish of the polished material. The Stone Yards CAN'T give you pricing. They are like Benjamen Moore (paint) they are only supply the material. It's like me asking you how much a car is? Your response would be which one? Only a fabricator will know the cost of the entire job, as that is what should concern you. Not the price per square foot of a slab of granite. You can't take it home and lean it up against your house. Also, the Stone Yard can't cut off a piece of a slab. They are not Fabricators, they don't cut. Especially with a material that expensive, they don't want to lose money. Quartzites will etch and stain, they are a softer stone. If you're not extremely fastidious, you could have issues. |
NaRo, You sound like me. I too want bullet proof! I don't want to baby my countertops and after having indistructable granite that still looks brand new after 12 years of everything under the sun spilled on it I don't think I can change my careless ways. This time around I'd like a light color stone like the beautiful quartzite you found. Some say it's bulletproof and other have reported otherwise. It's so confusing. I've also found the local slab yards won't crack off a sample. Muskokascp- your counters are beautiful!! Also love your cabinets. Can you please share who manufactured your cabs? Can't wait to see your finished kitchen, but for now can you share a few pics with your backsplash and sills? |
- Posted by michelle16 (My Page) on Mon, Dec 3, 12 at 8:27
donttakeitforgranite-you are mistaken- the stone yards do call this type of white macubus- calacutta quartzite. The difference is in the veining. White macabus that runs with lines running across is called luce di luna. When the veining is random like Na Ro's it's called calacutta quartzite because it resembles the pattern of marble.It also is not a cross between marble and granite- it is strictly a quartzite. VERY hard, will NOT etch, or stain. Very durable. I have it and have no issues with it. Mine is the calacutta quartzite like Na Ro's and Muskokascp's.Hope this help's you -island- in your decision, thanks, Michelle |
- Posted by annkathryn (My Page) on Mon, Dec 3, 12 at 11:40
The Stone Yards CAN'T give you pricing. This is incorrect as stone yards in California price their stone by the square foot. The fabricators pick up the stone from the yard and will give you another price for fabrication. Sometimes fabricators have arrangements with stone yards for discounts and will pass that discount on to the consumer. My designer got me a 10% discount on my Calacatto Oro. And sometimes stone yards will refer to quartzite as granite. The names can be somewhat random and have nothing to do with the geologic properties of the slab. |
Michelle16 -Youza what a beautiful island! Can you please provide a link to pics of your completed kitchen? Thanks |
What Michelle16 said! I wanted to piggy back on this thread with my experience so far... anyhow...I threw orange, ketchup, turmeric, bar keepers friend, olive oil, balsamic vinegar, and crushed blackberry at it and...NOTHING. The only issue I had was there was some blackberry staining where the juice had migrated to the unfinished edge but guess what? It is gone. Not a trace. Everyting just wiped right off, no stains, and def no etching. Just for fun, I did the same test with silestone quartz sample, and the turmeric left a faint stain that I have yet to get out(I imagine it will come out with some soft scrub, but the turmeric came off the quartzite with a little soap and water). |
Toronto331 - Ciot in Vaughan is your best bet. I got my Luci di Luna / Quartzite Bianca there. |
- Posted by island_obsession (My Page) on Wed, Apr 24, 13 at 13:58
I can't believe it's been a year since I last posted on here! Our kitchen is finally happening. After a LONG search of every natural and man-made marble-looking, but durable product in the known world, I had given up on finding the elusive white quartzite I wanted and we were set to go with honed Carrara (beautiful and half the price, but sure to be a maintenance nightmare). Of course as fate would have it when I contacted the slab yard to select our slabs this weekend, they had this in stock! It's going by the name Blanco Quartzite, but I think it may be the same stone as the Macabus I fell in love with in muskokascp's and NaRo's kitchen and others. Please help with opinions on it! Is the veining too much? It was so helpful to see how it looks installed in the kitchens above so I think I'll be very happy with in on the perimeter cabinets. The bigger factor will be finding a slab in this lot that has good veining for the big island . . . Thanks for any help you can give! |
Hey Babs711...where did you find your quartzite in NOLA? I'm in Baton Rouge and planning a road trip to look at slabs there. Haven't started researching NO stone yards yet. Some are the same as we have here (Triton being one) but thought you might have some suggestions. THANKS! |
Just wanted to correct someone's post that quartzite is soft and will etch.. Everything I've read or been told is quartzite is harder than most granites. It's an odd combination of extremely dense and extremely porous... As to etching, it's not true that all quartzites etch. What etches is a reaction between calcite in stone (eg marble, limestone, travertine) and an acid. Since quartzite does not contain calcite it 'should not' etch.. however.. it can etch, but from a reaction between the resin used at the quarry (all stones have resin applied on them for the past decade) and acid, which explains why some people with quartzite experience etching and others with the same stone don't -- depends on the quarry and resin used. Sealer does not protect against etching. It only gives us enough time to mop up (wine/oil/lime juice, etc.) to prevent it from staining. Even a sealed surface can stain if something is left overnight - depending on the stone. Some granites are literally bullet-proof and you can leave anything on it for weeks and no staining. Lastly, the latest is a topical coating that prevents etches. What I've read is you are exchanging maintaining the stone which is easy/low cost/homeowner can do for maintaining the coating which has to be done by a professional, usually involves toxic fumes and can be quite costly if the counter has to be repaired in the future (has to be ground off). I think they are a ways off from perfecting this, but it does sound like there are some topical coatings that prevent etching that are better than others (don't make it look plasticky, won't yellow or delaminate) but they still have the same issue of a big expense if your countertop has to be repaired at some point. I removed the etching from our Quartzite Bianca with a poultice of baking soda and water... |
Michelle16, I know I have told you many times in other posts but I just LOVE your calacutta quartzite counters! I also love your inset cabinets and your overall gorgeous kitchen! What is the edge called that you used on your island that is so pretty? |
Does anyone have a finished pic with macauba and updates on etch/ staining? We are doing our kitchen and have white cabinets. Is stone is the only quartzite I have found to have passed all the tests and proves to be a real quartzite.. Thoughts?! |
I don't have it, but it does seem to be one of the few reliable stones that really is quartzite. There is a recent post in the Countertop Geology thread from a happy macabus owner. |
Karin_mt- thanks for following up! Any suggestions on other stones that hold up? U are a wealth of wonderful info!!! |
Madre Perla, Mother of Pearl - it has beigy tones. Also Sea Pearl, which has greens and greys. Those are quartzites. Most granites hold up great, it you like the look. |
I do love granite but I haven't found many that are close to the marble look 😞... We are building our home after it was destroyed by Sandy so I want light and airy for the beach. River white wasn't bad but I didn't like the specks that ran through it. I love the veins that marble has. Not many granites posses that quality. fyi- 6 kids and a messy chef don't make great company for marble! |
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Religious Pluralism Theologians (Christian) Philosophy of Religion |
John Hick's pluralist hypothesis: An introductionInformation: This article gives a brief introduction to the history of John Hick's pluralist hypothesis, and his belief that each faith-tradition is to be understood as a different human responses to the same transcendent Reality. The central tenets of Hick's pluralist hypothesis were set out by him in: An Interpretation of Religion: Human Responses to the Transcendent and A Christian Theology of Religions: Critical Dialogues on Religious Pluralism. All quotes are taken from Hick's work, unless otherwise noted. A version of this article was originally published on the website www.faithnet.org.uk. Introduction John Hick (b.1922) is an English philosopher of religion, who in his early years embraced a more evangelical (and fundamentalist) form of Christian belief; one that was firmly committed to the idea that Christianity was the true faith, and the Bible as God's sole revealed Word. However, during the course of his life he began to find great difficulty in trying to justify the belief that one faith-tradition was true, and that friends of his who were not-Christians would be going to hell for not subscribing to a belief in Jesus Christ. Furthermore, on the basis of his extensive reading of the scriptures of other faith traditions, he began to see that there was just as much 'good' (and 'bad') to be found in them, as there was in the Bible (and Christianity). Reviewing his subsequent shift in thinking in God Has Many Names (1980) he writes: 'I have from almost as early as I can remember had a rather strong sense of the reality of God as the personal and loving lord of the universe'. The idea that God is both 'personal' and 'loving', were major influences in the development of his pluralist hypothesis. Problems with religious exclusivity In his book God and the Universe of Faiths (1974), Hick began to lay the foundations of what would become his pluralist hypothesis. His initial concern in this book was to explore what he felt was an inherent tension between the idea of a God of love, and the Evangelical Christian attitude towards non-Christians. Within Evangelicalism, the possibility of salvation has traditionally been centred on the belief that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ alone (the incarnate Son of God) has secured salvation for humanity, and that only a personal commitment and belief in this 'fact' would guarantee salvation. This has led to Christian exclusivism, expressed as 'outside Christianity there is no salvation' (aka 'outside the Church there can be no salvation'). However, Hick became concerned that if the Christian God is a God of love, yet Christian salvation is the only true salvation, then we have a dilemma: 'Can we then accept the conclusion that the God of love who seeks to save all mankind has nevertheless ordained that men must be saved in such a way that only a small minority can in fact receive this salvation?' Taking such a limited approach to the means by which people can be saved (i.e. through literally hearing about Jesus or becoming members of the Christian Church), meant that for Hick most of the world would have to be considered damned: 'It is the weight of this moral contradiction that has driven Christian thinkers in modern times to explore other ways of understanding the human religious situation'. Accidents of birth Hick began to argue that a person's religious beliefs were largely decided by where they were born, and that people cannot be held accountable for 'accidentally' being born in a non-Christian environment. For example, if a person is born in India into a Hindu family and leads a devout Hindu life, it seems odd that God should condemn them for this simply because they were not born in a Christian country, or a Christian family, or because a Christian missionary had failed to reach them and tell them about Jesus before they died. In fact, it is obviously going to be the case that a person born in India will most likely grow up with the belief that salvation is achieved through (and by) the many Hindu gods, just as much someone born in Saudi Arabia is most likely going to become a Muslim and follow the teachings of Islam. Hick believes that one's view of salvation (and the subsequent means to attaining it), is greatly dependent on (and influenced by) where one has been born. With this insight, Hick felt he had dealt Christian exclusivism a mortal blow: 'Can we be so entirely confident that to have been born in our particular part of the world carries with it the privilege of knowing the full religious truth?' Orthopraxis, not orthodoxy! From very early on in his work, Hick sought to challenge the idea that one needs to hear and respond to a specific message in order to be 'saved' (as Evangelicals believe). He also sought to move away from notions of orthodoxy (correct belief) towards orthopraxis (correct living); the latter being required if we want to begin to say, 'All salvation… is the work of God'. Hick also began to see the world's religions as culturally-conditioned contexts, within which people could grow as moral and spiritual beings, and challenged the idea that mission should be an attempt to convert, rather than to understand people. With this in mind, Hick believes that contact between members of other religions should only and always be positive and fruitful ('Not to displace but to deepen and enlarge their relationship with God'). With these early insights, Hick laid the foundations for a revolution to take place in his theology of religion: 'Our next question is this: do we regard the Christian way as the only way, so that salvation is not to be found outside it; or do we regard the other great religions of mankind as other ways of life and salvation?' Re-interpreting religion (and religions) With the publication of An Interpretation of Religion: Human Responses to the Transcendent (1989), Hick introduced the most developed version of his religious pluralism (and the one he is most well-known for). Whereas in his earlier work he had tended to see religions as culturally determined landing-pads for God, now he presents religions as particular responses to God by the devotee. In other word's, he has shifted the emphasis from subject (God) to perceiver (humanity). The seeds for this were sown in his early work (as noted above). However Hick's also acknowledges his indebtedness to the philosophy of Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) and Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951), both of whom examined knowledge as something conditioned by our own (limited) way of seeing things (as). In An Interpretation of Religion, Hick (following Kant) says that there is both the world in itself (noumenal), and the world as we understand and perceive it (phenomenal). We know this because people see things in the world differently, so we all cannot be seeing the world as it really is (otherwise there would be no disagreement). Each person's experience of the way the world is, is therefore an interpretation of it specific to that individual's point-of-view. When Hick applies this insight to the matter of religious experience, he concludes that all religious experience is simply a particular experience of the divine by the devotee (what he also calls 'experiencing-as'). From this we can see how someone born in India is not only going to naturally be a Hindu, but also consider the Hindu-worldview normative (or normal) and all others wrong. For they simply have no way of seeing things any differently! Advertisement The Real In An Interpretation of Religion, Hick radically revised his earlier concept of God, replacing this with the idea of an ineffable Real. In theistic traditions, God is encountered as a personal deity. Judaism, Islam and Christianity (for example) all have a personal God. But what of the non-personal realities, such as Brahman? How can a personal God also be experienced as non-personal? The concept of an ineffable Real alleviates this dilemma. Turning once again to Kant, Hick distinguishes between the Real as it is in itself ('Real an sich') and the Real as it is variously experienced and thought of by the different human communities. 'I want to explore the pluralistic hypothesis that the great world faiths embody different perceptions and conceptions of, and correspondingly different responses to, the Real from within the major variant ways of being human; and that within each of them the transformation of human existence from self-centredness to Reality-centredness is taking place.' The idea that we experience the Real in different ways, and this is the reason why there are different faith traditions in the world, also releases an inherent tension in pluralist theologies. Religious diversity does not reveal contradictions, it is simply an expression of the varieties of human experience. In other words, just as there are different styles of art and music, so there are naturally going to be different 'styles' of faith. People are different - they have been born in different places, have been born into different families, and have been raised in different ways - so we should not be surprised that just as they like and have developed different sorts of music and art, so they are naturally going to like and develop different expressions of religious faith, belief and practice too. The fact that people are 'experiencing the Real' in different ways, also challenges the idea that only one faith-tradition is true (exclusivism). Furthermore, in saying that the Real is ineffable and unable to be experienced, understood or expressed by human understanding/language, means that Hick can say that the various faith-traditions are contexts for moral and spiritual betterment. This means that the 'truthfulness' of a faith-tradition is not so much to do with whether its beliefs are true, but what sort of believer they are producing! Re-interpreting salvation In An Interpretation of Religion (and subsequent works), Hick seems to ground his pluralist hypothesis more in the idea of salvation as something which transforms people (rather than which saves their 'soul'): 'I suggest that these different conceptions of salvation are specifications of what, in a generic formula, is the transformation of human existence from self-centredness to a new orientation centred in the divine reality'. Throughout all religions, Hick believes a common teaching can be found - known as the 'Golden Rule'. In the Christian tradition, this is expressed as 'Love your neighbour as you love yourself'. Hick believes the extent to which faith-traditions promote this attitude in its adherents, is the extent to which we can consider it to be an expression of 'true faith'. Now this might immediately imply a sense of moral exclusivity, except that when we compare each of the great world faiths to each other, they all seem to be equally as effective in promoting this attitudes in their devotees as each other: 'We have no good reason to believe that any one of the great religious traditions has shown itself to be more productive of love/compassion than another'. Although members of a faith may want to suggest that they are morally superior than others (and as such they would be suggesting that they are members of the 'true faith'), any claim to moral superiority cannot be validated by religious history. In each of the great world faiths there has been both evil and good actions performed by its devotees. As Hick himself comments, 'I suggest today that the onus of proof or of argument is upon any who claim that their own tradition produces morally and spiritually better human beings than all the others'. Summary Initially Hick presented his pluralistic hypothesis as something to hold in tension the idea of a God of love, and a universal plan of salvation. However, in recent years his starting point has shifted to focus more on the idea that each of the religions of the world are various culturally conditioned human responses to what he calls the Real. Yet because the Real is ineffable, the various religions of the world are not there to pass on 'truths' concerning the Real, but to act as contexts in which human salvation (the shift from egocentricism to non-egocentricism) can take place. Although each religious tradition would distinguish itself from the others by seeing itself as superior to them (exclusivism), this claim cannot be validated when we see that religious history reveals no distinguishable difference between each of them, so as to suppose the moral superiority or salvific effectiveness of one above the others. |
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