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I live in NJ. There is a program called njcleanenergy that gives rebates based on the percentage of energy saving achieved by upgrading the hvac and doing other items. Reducing usage by 20% gets a $4k rebate and by 25% gets a 5k rebate. Also, there is 10 year financing at 0% for up to $10k. Our home would get energy star certification. It sounds like a good deal.
I have a 16 year old, 2 story, 2800 sq ft house with a 90% heater and standard (80%?) a/c unit. We want to replace the hvac because many neighbors have been having failures, so we thought to do it while the program above exists. We had the home energy audit and in order to achieve 20% we would have to go with a hybrid heat/ac system and a power vent hot water heater, along with attic sealing and 6" of insulation. This gets us the 4k rebate. If we do the non-hybrid system with a tankless hot water system and attic work, we get the 5k rebate, and somehow the whole job turns out to be 1k less. We think the tankless option is the best move since it is cheaper. We had also considered just doing the hvac and not participating in the program. That would cost us $3k less than the whole energy star package, and no special financing. Our water heater is 8.5 years old. My main question is whether it is worth it to spend the extra 3k on the tankless water heater and the attic sealing and insulation? The unit quoted is Carrier 59TP5A100E21 and 24ABC648. Any thoughts on the warranty of 10 years complete vs 5 yr complete w/10 yr mfg part warranty? Are hvac likely to have issues in year 5-10 or do most show up early, and then at the end of life span (sort of like cars). I also read that many of these warranties require you to get them serviced every year. I'm thinking the warranty cost for those additional 5 years, plus the mandatory service fees (rather than getting a friend etc to do it) might pay for any out of warranty repairs. Any thoughts are appreciated. |
Follow-Up Postings:
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Tue, Jun 5, 12 at 13:58
I forgot to put costs....The unit I mentioned is a 2-stage furnace, 1 stage a/c and will cost me 12,750 after the rebate. I get to finance 10,000 at 0% for 10 years. They claim my utility savings will about equal my monthly payment of $83. The hvac alone is about 9500 depending on warranty option I choose. No special financing, minimal rebates included in price. They say energy star rating will increase value of my home at resale. Part of me knows the attic work should be done. The other part thinks it is costing a lot. My preliminary estimate doesn't have breakdowns. The guy did basically admit that it does cost $ to run to be in the program (lots of paperwork with the state, energy audit had to be done, etc) so I know it's the cheapest price I could get. I just hope the 5k isn't eaten up in price increases, you know, mark it up to mark it down.... |
What size furnace and AC do you currently have, and what are the sized of the replacement equipment? Has the contractor done a Manual J calcualtion and have you reviewed it? I looked at the NJ Clean Energy Web site. I am skeptical about these type of programs. I think you pay higher prices in order to fund the energy auditer's work and the rebates. You can save money with the NJ Cool Advantage and Warm Advantage rebates. The Cool Advantage requires a Manual J and S calcualtion by the contractor in order to qualify. I don't know the sizes of your new equipment, but the quote you received seems high even for NJ. The Carrier Performance furnace is good, but the Comfort series AC is near the low end. This combination does not qualify for a rebate from Carrier. I suggest you upgrade the AC to a 2-stage Performance series. You should also get a price for an Infinity furnace and AC combination. This qualifies for a $1100 rebate from Carrier. If you plan to live in your house for at least 5 years, I recommend you replace the furnace at the same time. The Carrier 10 year labor warranty is also a good investment. You should have a yearly service check on the equipment, but missing a year will no invalidate your warranty. If you change the filter regularly and don't abuse the equipment the warranty will be honored. Get a 4 inch media filter if it can fit in your set up. Adding insulation in the attic is always a good thing. You want an insulation value of at least R-30. I am not sure about sealing an attic. I was always told you need adequate ventalation in the attic to eliminate moisture. Perhaps an attic sealing expert can comment on this. How are your windows and doors? I would put the money there before sealing up an attic. Your hot water heat is only 8.5 years old. It still has 5 - 10 year of life left. I would not do a tankless set up. They are very expensive and you may never see a pay back. The power vent hot water heaters are also expensive. I like the fact you have all the hot water you want during a black out with a conventional hot water heater. In my opinion, your home will see no increase in value with an energy star rating. |
- Posted by david_cary (My Page) on Wed, Jun 6, 12 at 5:57
I took the attic sealing to mean sealing the floor of the attic not changing the attic from vented to unvented. Surely a 16 year old house has R-30 already. I've lived in a few early 90s houses in NC and they look like they had R-30. Obviously NJ should be stricter. R-60 is what is recommended for new houses in your climate and while that is better than R-30, the difference is not dramatic. Those prices are outrageous. What do you pay to heat and cool the house now? You probably have a Seer 10 a/c now. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Thu, Jun 7, 12 at 11:42
Attic was supposedly R-30, but it doesn't come up much past the joists. One of the guys that came up said it has settled, not sure if that makes a difference. I think he said it needs to be R-38 at least. One estimate was for 6" of blown in on top of what we have. Attic sealing meant sealing the floor. He showed me the dirty insulation where the walls below meet the attic. I have seen some ice on the roofing nails in the past, is that from the heat escaping into the attic? I will look into the Carrier rebate, but the quotes using the hybrid were higher. I will double check. He did say my current furnace is bigger than I need. Following is the little bit of info I got in response to an email I sent. It is clear that the Navien water heater is way overpriced. I understand they aren't giving me rock bottom prices due to the rebate and the work involved, but it still seems way high. I don't mind paying a little more to get a 5k rebate, but I don't want to be scammed either. Still waiting on estimate #2. From "home comfort specialist": The capacity of the systems are 48,000 btu'┐Įs (4 tons) 16 seer efficiency for the A/C The furnace is 100,000 btu'┐Įs with 96.1% efficiency Here are the cost breakdowns: Full system with tankless water, heater, a/c, furnace, insulation, and air sealing $17,788.00 - $5,000.00 rebate and 0% financing for $10,000.00 leaving out of pocket cost of $2,788.00 and monthly energy savings of $75.00. payment of $83.00 per month. A/C alone $6,393.00 no rebates available. Furnace alone $6,219.00 with a $400.00 NJCE rebate net cost $5,819.00 A/C and furnace $10,721.00 includes multi system discount and will get a $900.00 NJCE rebate net cost $9,821.00 We can take the NJCE rebates off of the price and we wait for them instead of you (they take 4 to 6 months to receive) Insulation and air sealing $2,862.00 Tankless water heater $4,195.00 (includes extra large gas piping and venting that is required) All these costs are inclusive of everything needed, all materials, labor, permits, sheet metal, electrical, gas piping, and the 10 year complete parts and labor warranty for the furnace and air conditioner. The 10 year warranty costs are $243.00 for each the furnace and the A/C total $487.00. I think you would be missing an opportunity to make a great improvement to your home, increase its value and your comfort with very little out of pocket costs with the state program. Any choice you make all the work will be done in one day for the least inconvenience to you. Please contact me with any questions or more information. |
I now understand the attic sealing. I have never seen this done, so I can't comment how much it is going to help. You should forget about the tankless how water heater. You will never see a pay back in its lifetime. Did the comfort specialist do a Manual J calculation? A 100,000 BTU furnace and 4 ton air conditioner seem a bit oversized. Do these sizes account for the additional insulation and sealing? How does the contractor know you will achieve an energy savings of $75 per month? Did they review your energy bills from the past few years? I recommend you get additional quotes for the furnace and AC. Call another Carrier dealer if you want to do an apples to apples comparison. Some HVAC dealers offer financing if this important to you. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Thu, Jun 7, 12 at 13:24
They had my bills which show usage for the past year. I don't know what calculations they did, but they did measure my house. They are a very large company with a good reputation. This one has done the most of these energystar jobs according to the njcleanenergy.com website. They have to do calculations and send them to the state (or somewhere) to get approval to be in the program. They have to be BPI certified. They calculate an estimated % savings for each "measure" they do and it has to add up to 20 or 25% savings. The air sealing should ave 6%, insulation 2%, upgrade furnace 2.5% (hybrid would be 6%) upgrade water heater 7%, a.c system 2%. Everything has to be submitted and approved. One company did do a blower door test already. I believe it is required before and after. The air sealing is a requirement for the program. I have one more quote in process and I will call for another today. The tankless water heater was to meet the 25% savings requirement. If I choose hybrid system I can meet 20% with a power vent water heater, or I can meet 25% with non-hybrid and tankless. The non-hybrid w/tankless comes out cheaper. The 25% w/ tankless gets me $1000 more of a rebate This is a little about the program: |
Here is a link that might be useful: njcleanenergy.com
- Posted by energy_rater_la (My Page) on Thu, Jun 7, 12 at 17:59
air sealing and duct sealing is the best investment for the buck. making the house tighter, and ducts delivering all the air into the home is a no brainer. tighter houses are easier to heat and cool, having all of the air supplied going into the house saves money and adds comfort. the water heater question would be better answered usually the software does a load sizing for you. I'd have to think long and hard before investing $17,000 I find that utility companies cap the improvement at do you have any comfort issues now? if your existing did they test the ductwork? physically seal off did they show you house leakage sites? or just give its a big investment. slow down and educate yourself best of luck. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Wed, Jun 20, 12 at 13:44
I have prices from 2 places and an informal price from a third. It seems that the third place is less $, and they are smaller. One of them does a lot of advertising, and the 2nd is building a new showroom. I think that is why the third is cheaper, less overhead. Still A+ bbb rating. I'm getting another smaller company out because they are very close and also have a good rating. This 4th company told me on the phone that the hybrid system is more than the system I mentioned in my original post (16 seer , 4ton, 1-stage, 96% 100,000btu 2 stage) but he made it sound like it is not a lot more. My current question is how much more would you expect a hybrid unit to be that provides the same heat/cool as the quoted units? I would choose hybrid if I could get greater enough energy savings that would enable me to get a powervent water heater instead of a tankless. The tankless is running about $3700, but it gets me a %5000 rebate with the program, while the hybrid with powervent hot water would only get me a 4k rebate, that's why I need to know the price difference between hybrid and conventional. I feel like they may be overcharging for the hybrid because they think I am captive to getting it so that I can get the rebate. Odds are I will miss Carrier's rebate deadline of June 30 unless I move fast. So far the extra cost to get infinity system and controller that would get me the rebate doesn't seem to be worth it anyway. I don't need a Cadillac system, a nice Toyota will do...(my old "ford" system works just fine!) I'll post back soon. calling company 3 because I never got his formal proposal, only a copy of numbers he hand wrote while he was here and we discussed options. |
- Posted by weedmeister (My Page) on Wed, Jun 20, 12 at 15:56
Guys here can probably tell you differences in price for a 4-ton AC vs a 4-ton HP. But I would expect it to be in the range of $300-$800. |
- Posted by weedmeister (My Page) on Wed, Jun 20, 12 at 15:57
Guys here can probably tell you differences in price for a 4-ton AC vs a 4-ton HP. But I would expect it to be in the range of $300-$800. |
- Posted by weedmeister (My Page) on Wed, Jun 20, 12 at 15:58
Guys here can probably tell you differences in price for a 4-ton AC vs a 4-ton HP. But I would expect it to be in the range of $300-$800. |
Cindy, You should compare notes with nms21. He is located in Cherry Hill, NJ and is also considering the NJ Clean Energy program. He may have gotten quotes from the same Carrier dealers. Please keep us up to date on your decision. I am curious to learn more about the program. |
- Posted by tigerdunes (My Page) on Thu, Jun 21, 12 at 11:46
So cindy If you elect to use the special NJ incentive program, what is the net out of pocket cost to you on the Carrier system? Post back. IMO |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 23:31
It will cost about 12500 for a 2stage 96 eff carrier w1 stage comfort ac, .66 eff power vent water 50 gallons, 1000 sq feet of R19 blown insulation and sealing of all gaps and cracks in attic. About 13000 for the above but with a tankless 98 eff water heater. These are round numbers from memory. That is the after rebate pricing, there is 10,000 financing at zero percent for 10 years...$83 monthly payment. Our estimated energy savings would be around 72 monthly, so they say. I have 2 meetings on Monday and should be able to have it down to 2firm options. . The water heaters are power vent. I need their efficiency to meet the rebate and apparently by sealing the attic I need the power vent for proper venting... Seems like a pile of $ to me. I have read NJ is pricey for this stuff.... |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Mon, Aug 13, 12 at 11:12
Update, the company that was most expensive initially has been working with me. My most attractive option right now seems to be the tankless after all. All the posts I read about the defrost cycle of Carrier, the run time of the units, and the obvious fact of my furnace being 95% eff got me wondering about it after all. The original quote was for a TP%A 2-stage heat with a 24ABC a/c. I didn't like the 24ABC too much as I think it is barely above bilder grade (correct?). The new quote is for the 59TP5A, the 24ACB7 (2-stage) the tankless and all the air sealing and insulation. The quote with the higher grade a/c is $450 lower than my original quote. The tankless will plug into an outlet and can easily be used with a generator (which I can get for a decent price after all--considered Harbour Freight, but the reviews are scary even for something we'll barely use!) Anybody care to comment on this system? Everything will cost me 12k (10k to be financed). How much do you think that hvac system alone (new lineset etc) should cost me here in NJ?? I think this is how I will go....the lowest heat pump option was with a 25HCC which I wasn't loving that HP model...For the same money I will get 2-stage a/c and tankless....Tankless with a generator could be a nice option in the event of a prolong winter power failure! I have a big bathtub! I didn't ask what thermostat....In his original quote they listed a honeywell vision pro 8000, do I want that or a carrier one? |
A tankless hot water heater requires more natural gas input than a conventional tank. Does the installation include upgrading the gas line as necessary? Did the installer explain what is required to maintain the tankless system? Have you factored in these costs? Will you have enough capacity to take a shower and wash dishes at the same time? In my opinion you are better off getting the heat pump and keeping your current hot water heater. Spend a little extra money and upgrade the heat pump to a better one. You don't have to use the condenser as heat pump. It can be used for cooling only. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Mon, Aug 13, 12 at 14:37
The price includes all the necessary work. This is one of the biggest companies around here and they have done way more of these projects than any of the contractors listed on the njcleanenergy website (within 20 miles of my zip). I am comfortable with them being able to do the job. He says they have put many of the tankless in and that people are very happy and they can do multiple tasks at once. No matter what, my water heater has to be changed to either a power vent or a tankless. I did do reading and it has to do with air quality because the natural draft will be reduced raising the risk of the exhaust not properly venting. I am left with choosing heat pump or tankless to meet my rebate levels and today I am thinking the tankless might be less potential headaches compared with the heat pump and it's defrosting and shorter life compared to a/c. The tankless water should have a long life if properly maintained. Luckily, my neighbor is a plumber who has put one in his own home and he will guide me on maintaining it, and will help me do it if we can't handle it ourselves. If it weren't for the the rebates I wouldn't do any of it except the hvac! I think the heat pump vs tankless is a debate I could have with myself forever! They are charging me too much extra for the heat pump for me to not use it as one, which is why I'm thinking I might get more perceived bang for my buck with tankless. Yes, as someone said, I AM CONFLICTED! But at least my prices are a little better now :) Any input on what 2 stage heat and air in Performance level Carrier with new lineset and condensation removal etc would/should cost? Comparing it to neighbors paying 9000 for single stage Lennox a/c and 80% furnace, or the $8000 someone else paid for brand I never heard of, I would guess maybe close to 10000 with new lineset and condensation removal etc? I would be happy with either setup. Looks like the same price either way I go... |
- Posted by tigerdunes (My Page) on Mon, Aug 13, 12 at 15:36
Until I see some operational cost numbers that justify a HP, I think it's a waste especially with this homeowner. As far as stat, I would want a true two stage thermostat that controls the staging of heat based on demand, not a cheap timer setup on the control board. Discuss with dealer. Carrier site says this furnace will accept the Infinity control but Carrier is mighty frisky with price. An in between substitute would be HW VP IAQ latest version. IMO |
You should be able to get the Carrier furnace and AC you listed above in the $8000 - $8500 range. This set up should qualify for the NJ Warm Advantage and Cool Advantage rebates. These rebates are $400 and $500 respectively. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Mon, Aug 13, 12 at 18:06
mike, I'd love to get it for that price...Wouldn't do air sealing or anything else at this point. I don't know how I'd get it that low. The neighbor who paid in the mid 7000's only got Tappan or something and I don't think she got hi-eff furnace...The other neighbor with Lennox paid in the 8000's and he got his own permits, did his own electric and got 80% furnaceand 1-stage air. He paid 8200 after rebate. |
If you want better prices you need to wait until the fall. The time to get quotes is September 15 - October 15 when the HVAC business slows down. We have had one of the hottest months of July on record. It is not a time to be shopping. Don't go by your neighbor's prices. They may have had a difficult installation or duct work modifications. Don't be surprised if you get quotes which vary by 20% for the same equipment. Prices will vary between contractors. |
If you want better prices you need to wait until the fall. The time to get quotes is September 15 - October 15 when the HVAC business slows down. We have had one of the hottest months of July on record. It is not a time to be shopping. Don't go by your neighbor's prices. They may have had a difficult installation or duct work modifications. Don't be surprised if you get quotes which vary by 20% for the same equipment. Prices will vary between contractors. |
If you want better prices you need to wait until the fall. The time to get quotes is September 15 - October 15 when the HVAC business slows down. We have had one of the hottest months of July on record. It is not a time to be shopping. Don't go by your neighbor's prices. They may have had a difficult installation or duct work modifications. Don't be surprised if you get quotes which vary by 20% for the same equipment. Prices will vary between contractors. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Tue, Aug 14, 12 at 15:43
I agreed to the 2-stage heat/air and the tankless, air sealing and insulation. The company came down from their original price AND upgraded the size of the tankless (strength?) and upgraded the model of the a/c, so I feel I am at least getting a more reasonable price. He will come by with the official quote or whatever for me to sign on Thursday. I am confident that this company will do the job correctly. The tankless will have a power cord and an outlet so it will be easy to use the portable generator I am considering buying anyway for tailgating and power failures. Just need to buy extension cords or an interlock to the circuit breaker panel. I decided to do tankless because of the initial appeal to me. I will be able to fill my large tub immediately after both my boys take their showers. Many a cold night I've wanted a bath and had to wait to make sure there would be enough hot water. That is more of a tangible benefit than the heat pump would have been. The furnace I will be getting will heat me fine! Is it true that my humidity in the winter might be higher once the house is more sealed and insulated? That would be nice. Is this info about blowers correct? I had different quotes (and they have to do Manual J for the rebate so I know that was done) and am apparently in between 80,000 btu and 100,000. The contractor said that the 100,000 will (can?) use a stronger blower which should help in the summer with getting the cool to the second floor. In the winter it will likely run more in the 1st stage than the 80k would. Anyway, the decision is made. Details can be changed. Thanks for all the advice. I think it did help me ultimately make an informed decision. I may be still paying too much but I think I'm in a fair price for everything I'm getting and even if I'm not "saving" that much with the rebate I still get the financing and the increased efficiency and less energy out the roof. At least I'm not paying the first price they offered for lower equip. |
What is the final list of equipment and services you are getting and the total price? |
What is the final list of equipment and services you are getting and the total price? |
Hi - I am in the exact same spot that you were in deciding HVAC replacement. Can you share the equipment list and final price - please.... Seems like you went for Carrier and what thermostat did they give you? Thanks a ton ! |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Sun, Oct 14, 12 at 17:55
Are you doing the clean energy program or just hvac? My price was a one price for several items. I think I overpaid, but if you are doing the whole progam let me know and I'll email you my details. |
I am looking at the celan energy program. Need to replace water heater and furnace anyway and its not a whole lot less than the Whole house with the AC and insulation. Appreciate your help - you have done a very detailed analysis.. RJ |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Mon, Oct 15, 12 at 14:07
RJ, Let me tell you that I think I made a mistake by starting this process in the summer (hi demand season) and by not getting a quote for just hvac from someone not participating in the program, or from someone in the program--but not as part of it. I honestly had no good way to judge the prices which me and another member who did the program feel are jacked up due to the rebates. I suggest you start NOW. Another mistake was getting a little caught up in price and forgetting details. I got a "Multiple" speed blower which is fine, though I confused it with "variable" which is better. Multiple is still better than my old one...so it will be fine. I will be cool or hot and that is the main goal isn't it? I used a BIG company in south Jersey that starts with an "H." Their price was a bit better than the company starting with an "S" They weren't as good as I thought and I should have gone with "S"...Also, "H" initial quote was highest, but at the end of summer they lowered it. The upside is that I did get air sealing and insulation which I never would have bothered with if it weren't part of a package. I would not have gotten a tankless water heater either which I think I will love in the winter when I take hot baths more often. Neighbor has had one for several years and loves it and says his gas bill loves it too. Also, I already had a 90%, so in order to reach 25% I needed a tankless water heater AND insulation (in addition to air sealing). H could only get me to 20% with a heat pump and power vent water heater instead of tankless, but S claimed I could get 25% with heat pump...I opted for tankless due to higher rebate with chosen company and due to gas prices with a 96% furnace I thought the tankless would be more useful day to day with not a great payoff on heatpump unless gas went up and electric stayed same or went lower (as gas went up--very unlikely). H said S must have played with the numbers to get me 25% with heat pump...I'm not so sure.... Carrier 59TP5 100k btu 2 stage, multiple speed (2800 2-story) probably a little oversized but my old one was 125k at 90%... neighbor paid 8200 for Trane after rebates, similar size, 80% 2stage and 1 stage ac high seer. He did his own elec and permits so that wasn't in his price. He did not get air seal,insul or tankless or financing, and I don't think he got 10 year FULL warranty. I figured if he had gotten 97% and paid for elec , permits and warranty he'd have been close to 9500..compared to that I think my price is "ok". "H" clearly made a high profit with the rebate (though the salesman would have you think they made pennies on me). I computed the value of the 0% interest and it is quite a savings vs financing at higher or pulling it out of savings and losing investment opportunities. Bottom line, I could have spent less than 12k, but I would have gotten less. Did I get value of at least 12k? Certainly. If you allow 3k for the tankless that brings the hvac down to 9k and doesn't even include cost of air seal or insul or financing. Hopefully you are a better negotiator and can find a smaller reputable company. I think a large part of my indecision was not knowing what just hvac would have cost, and there are many choices within hvac (heat pump, stages, blowers...)Brings to mind...it you can get a less eff furnace than 95% then maybe heat pump would make sense. I'm not sure the program allows that though. It's funny because some things you get better at doing the second time around, like raising kids (I call mt first son my practice child), buying a home, buying a car...you learn from mistakes and learn more about what you're doing. I've never bought hvac before and now I know what I'd do differently. Good luck. Oh yes...assuming you are not already at 90% with furnace you will achieve 25% quite easily and heat pump or tankless probably won't even be needed to get you to 25%. Odds are you won't need insulation either. Another member here paid about 9700 for a system similar to mine, without tankless or insul, just a power vent hot water heater and air sealing. his screen name is nms21...I looked up an email from him and he did pay $9800 after rebate for hvac, air seal and hot water (not tankless). Not bad since it can all be financed at 0%. |
Cindy and other Gurus Sorry to drop off for a while - had too many things going on and finally got my second quote yesterday after a week of follow ups. Its still quite confusing and will appreciate your comments and guidance. I have a 2300 /2400 sq ft house, 2 storey OIL heat (don't ask me why) with a Carrier AC that is running great but about 14 years old. Option 1 (Rheem equipment) Option 2A (Carrier) Option 2 B (Carrier with Tankless and higher efficiency) I think this Option 2B is close to Cindy'┐Įs equipment list (not sure if it is of the same capacity since my house is smaller) and even allowing for 1000 for oil tank removal and humidifier - it seems a very high price to be $8,670 -1000 =$7,670. I note that Option 2B specifies a heat pump with a Infinity Controller whereas Option 2A does not specify a heat pump and no Infinity Controller I am thinking to go with Option 2A '┐Į not sure if the Tankless is worth so much more. I am asking the contractor to see what they can improve on Option A or even take off the Tankless heater and try to bring it as close to 10K mark as possible. Other questions Let me know your thoughts and sincere thanks for your time. RJ |
Cindy and other Gurus Sorry to drop off for a while - had too many things going on and finally got my second quote yesterday after a week of follow ups. Its still quite confusing and will appreciate your comments and guidance. I have a 2300 /2400 sq ft house, 2 storey OIL heat (don't ask me why) with a Carrier AC that is running great but about 14 years old. Option 1 (Rheem equipment) Option 2A (Carrier) Option 2 B (Carrier with Tankless and higher efficiency) I think this Option 2B is close to CindyŌĆÖs equipment list (not sure if it is of the same capacity since my house is smaller) and even allowing for 1000 for oil tank removal and humidifier - it seems a very high price to be $8,670 -1000 =$7,670. I note that Option 2B specifies a heat pump with a Infinity Controller whereas Option 2A does not specify a heat pump and no Infinity Controller I am thinking to go with Option 2A '┐Į'┐Į" not sure if the Tankless is worth so much more. I am asking the contractor to see what they can improve on Option A or even take off the Tankless heater and try to bring it as close to 10K mark as possible. Other questions Let me know your thoughts and sincere thanks for your time. RJ |
Option 2B is ridiculous in my opinion. You are being quoted a Carrier Greenspeed heat pump and a 97% efficiency furnace. This combination makes no sense given the high price of electricity in NJ versus the low price of natural gas. I also question the wisdom of getting a tankless hot water heater. Option 2A is a Carrier single stage furnace and a base model condenser. The furnace does not a variable speed. I suggest you spend a little extra money and upgrade to a 2-stage furnace and a comfort or performane model condenser. Option 2A shows a conventional 50 gallon hot water heater. The equipment on Option 1 is better, but I would not accept the ADP coil. Get the Rheem coil. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Wed, Oct 24, 12 at 15:23
It's hard to compare, my equip is better than 2A, but not as high as 2B. 2B is costing you over $8000? NO WAY! WITH the program the one thing that MUST BE DONE is air sealing, so I assume that is part of all your quotes? Are your contractors authorized as part of the program (listed on njcleanenergy.com). Is 2A a powervent water heater? I think you wrote it was.I was told mine had to be, though I have heard opinions on both sides of the argument. Powervent is a tank with a fan to blow the fumes out instead of relying on natural draft. It does seem safer in terms of health and safety and I think is required ( or tankless) if hot water is done within the program. Tankless is part of the large cost of 2B. Only you know if you would want it for the price. I would go with a 2 stage heat, 1 stage air (I got 2 stage air and doubt it was worth it) How much does oil tank removal run? That is a cost I didn't have. I think the tankless was about 2000 more than non tankless, so figure if you weren't having the tank out it would be 9600, but then add 2000 if you go tankless which puts you back at 11,600, which is close to my price, but I got 2 stage heat and air. If you like the Carrier guy, I would go to Carrier website and study the models, then ask for the next model up for the same price. (or 2 models up if you want negotiating room!) Tankless will me more and I would not do it unless I had extra $ and/or I REALLY wanted it. I only got it because I was spending the same on either the heat pump OR the tankless as I needed one of them to reach my efficiency. MOST people won't need to make that jump since their old furnaces are 80%. My early bids were "ABC" but I got "ACB" the second letter if it's "b" means base and "c" means comfort. It's better than what I had but not anything amazing. http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/acheatpumps/ac/comparison.shtml Click on the heading that names the series and you will bring up a page where you can view specs to get even more info. I got the ACB7 because I wasn't springing for Infinity. (had to draw the line somewhere! using the extra $ to buy a portable generator so I have water and TV in power failure) HERE http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/furnaces/gas/comparison.shtml is the furnace page. If you click on the heading (yours is Performance single, mine is Perf 2-stage) it will show you another page. Clicking on specs will show you model numbers within each heading. I think you will be good to get the 2-stage heat and at least the next model up in air (C as second letter in model) This is based on MY personal decisions. I think you are right now paying about 9600 plus oil tank and as I said the tankless would pop you up to 11,600 or so, which is in the ballpark of what I paid for slightly better equip.including tankless. You might be getting more insulation. The unknown is the cost to remove tank. The higher that really costs, then the better your deal looks. If you go with option 1, get a 50 gal water heater. Also, you'll need a 2stage thermostat, but they aren't that much (except for those special Infinity and super deluxe types) Hope that helps you to at least think it through. Try not to go crazy like I almost did! |
Mike and Cindy, Thank you and I am surfacing after a while. Got some updated quotes meanwhile, so the options are Carrier 59MN7070 97.4 Mod/Var Spd Furnace, Carier 25VNA036 heat pump (check it at http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/acheatpumps/heatpumps/infinitygs.shtml), Carrier CNPV3717 + oil tank removal (typically costs $650), air sealing and insulation and 50 G Power Vent Eff 0.63 Water heater - for just over $14 K and Infinity Controller My thought is to (a) ask this contractor to drop the heat pump to 2 stage AC 24ANB (so it will still retain the Infinity controller), check the price and (b) further drop to 2 stage AC (24ACB) and 2 stage furnace (59TP5) and also drop the Infinity since it would not be supported but get a 2 stage thermostat (essentially Cindy's config without the tankless) and see between (a) and (b) what makes sense. Essentially I figured it should be possible to get Cindy's config without the Tankless (usually a $1600 top up) just over 10K. Let's see..let me know if I am missing anything. Cindy - your information has been extremely helpful. Many many thanks... Mike - just curious about your last comment "you are being quoted Carrier Greenspeed heat pump and a 97% efficiency furnace. This combination makes no sense given the high price of electricity in NJ versus the low price of natural gas." What does electricity have to do with this - please pardon my ignorance.. Truly appreciate your help. RJ |
- Posted by david_cary (My Page) on Wed, Nov 14, 12 at 6:11
Greenspeed is a high cost heat pump that is very useful in areas without NG. It makes zero sense to pair it with NG with a very efficient furnace. You have 2 expensive efficient options when most people have 1 less efficient option. Greenspeed great function is working with low outdoor temps. When you have NG also, you just use NG at low temps. A heat pump makes no sense in NJ anyway since your electric is so high. I have $.10 electric and I am experimenting with shutting my heat pump off and just using my 90% furnace. You have way higher electric rates and a more efficient furnace - so there is no way to make a heatpump helpful at any outdoor temp. So you are spending $3k extra on a system that does not help. The only benefit would be the flexibility if NG went up in cost by 5 times and electricity magically didn't go up at all. Or if your NG gets knocked out and magically your electricity does not. Lots of magic to prepare for. |
David has explained it well. The furnace and heat pump form a dual fuel system. The idea is you use the system which costs less to run for a given outside temperature. The cost to run the heat pump is depends on the cost of the electricity and the outdoor temperature. The cost to run the furnace depends on the cost of natural gas only. Using the Coefficient of Performance (COP) of the heat pump, electricity rates, natural gas rates, you can calculate the temperature where the heat pump can produce heat more economically than the furnace. When gas rates are low as they are now, and when electricity rates are high as they usually are in NJ, you will see the heat pump has a very small temperature range where it can beat the furnace. The small savings is likely to never pay back the additional cost of the heat pump. Some will argue having a dual fuel system is protection in case the cost of natural gas rises. In my opinion the using of fracking in the US will keep gas prices low for the foreseeable future. If gas prices do rise, then electricity rates are likely to also rise since power plants are moving to gas and away from coal and oil. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Wed, Nov 14, 12 at 8:56
I agree with the guys. Why get heat pump AND amazing furnace when one or the other would do? Your 3 4 paragraphs are headed the right way. Obviously more $ will get you somewhat better stuff and you have to balance wants vs. needs with what you want to spend. Tankless was a 'want' for me and a heat pump wasn't. Ask for the price on what you wrote and if you get a killer price on what i got, i will be happy for you, but wish you hadn't told me! I wonder if the contractors are incentivized to push certain equip? You might want a price on10 year labor! I think mine was about 500, but not sure. You listed 5 so that's ok, but 5 more might not be much $. Any opinions from mike or anybody? When do problems arise? |
Mike and Cindy, Thank you and I am surfacing after a while. Got some updated quotes meanwhile, so the options are Carrier 59MN7070 97.4 Mod/Var Spd Furnace, Carier 25VNA036 heat pump (check it at http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/acheatpumps/heatpumps/infinitygs.shtml), Carrier CNPV3717 + oil tank removal (typically costs $650), air sealing and insulation and 50 G Power Vent Eff 0.63 Water heater - for just over $14 K and Infinity Controller My thought is to (a) ask this contractor to drop the heat pump to 2 stage AC 24ANB (so it will still retain the Infinity controller), check the price and (b) further drop to 2 stage AC (24ACB) and 2 stage furnace (59TP5) and also drop the Infinity since it would not be supported but get a 2 stage thermostat (essentially Cindy's config without the tankless) and see between (a) and (b) what makes sense. Essentially I figured it should be possible to get Cindy's config without the Tankless (usually a $1600 top up) just over 10K. Let's see..let me know if I am missing anything. Cindy - your information has been extremely helpful. Many many thanks... Mike - just curious about your last comment "you are being quoted Carrier Greenspeed heat pump and a 97% efficiency furnace. This combination makes no sense given the high price of electricity in NJ versus the low price of natural gas." What does electricity have to do with this - please pardon my ignorance.. Truly appreciate your help. RJ |
So here is my latest update, still working on pricing but reducing it to 2 Options (eliminated the heat pump) (A) Air Conditioner 24ANB7 - 2 stage (http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/acheatpumps/ac/infinity.shtml) and Furnace 59TN6 - 2 stage var speed (http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/furnaces/gas/infinity96t.shtml) + Infinity controller (B) and Airconditioner - 2 stage From what I can check, I don't think Option A is a heat pump so no usage of electricity... If prices are very close, am inclined to go for Option A over Option B Cindy - you did get a good deal .. Hope to close now and thank again to everyone. RJ |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Sat, Nov 17, 12 at 9:29
Looks good from here. If prices close get A, if not, you will have to choose. I have B, and it works, I'm warm and that was the goal. Can't say if I would notice A or not...maybe for 500 dif.... Hers a thought...why not tn6 with acb7? Does the anb7 give you much more? Both are 2 stage. That would be a nice system, imo. |
TN6 with ACB7 would probably mean that Infinity Controller will not apply - since it is not supported by ACB7. Let;s see what the contractors say. Again - I think you did the smart thing by moving to 2 stage AC and 2 Stage furnace - usual configs proposed usually are single stage. This is a good learning. Thanks. |
I believe the Performance condensers are compatible with the Infinity controller. I don't know if the furnace must be an Infinity model. The 59TP5 is a multi-speed furnace, not variable speed. Check the Carrier web site for the details. My recommendation would be Option A. I have the previous generation of this equipment. It does a great job of humidity controller in the summer. Did you miss the Carrier rebate window? |
I am looking at closing Option A now. Not sure if I missed the Rebate, have to talk to the contractor tomorrow. In principle, I will end up paying $700 to $1000 over Option B - thought it would be good to go with Infinity equip and Infinity controller - though am not sure that it will actually provide significantly incremental savings in operating costs. In fact I believe I can probably get Option B as the same cost as Option A but with a bypass humidifier and duct cleaning included.I had my ducts cleaned about 4 to 5 years ago and did not notice any difference. There is no smoker/pet in the house. EPA site also is non-commital about value of duct cleaning and the contractor says with Option A - you don't need a humidifier. Thoughts? Thanks ! |
Don't waste any money paying for a duct cleaning. If your windows are tight then you probably don't need a humidifer. It can be added it later if you feel the house is too dry. |
- Posted by countryboymo (My Page) on Fri, Nov 23, 12 at 14:32
When I purchased my home I had horrible low humidity issues in the winter so I jumped and installed a nice humidifier which solved the symptom but not the problem. I started duct and home sealing and even though I still have to finish the attic and a few other places. I have cut the amount the humidifier is in use by half or more. We as humans make and produce a lot of humidity with cooking,showers/baths, cleaning, washing clothes. I agree that in many climates and homes a humidifier is needed but if it runs constantly with the furnace even in mild weather some home sealing is in order. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Fri, Nov 23, 12 at 16:43
countryboy, Sounds like Mike was right again about humidifiers. I think he had suggested to others on other threads not to jump to the humidifier until the house is sealed, because you may not need it. If he didn't say it, I bet he would say it! My house has been around 50% since the heat has been on, maybe in the high 40's. I guess that is ok. I don't have humidifier |
- Posted by countryboymo (My Page) on Sat, Nov 24, 12 at 5:00
I would recommend to ride out a winter and keep an eye on RH before jumping on the humidifier bandwagon. There is nothing wrong with a humidifier other than usually a caulking gun and some foam will make a huge impact. |
Mike, Cindy, Everything else being the same (air sealing, insulation, 50G Power Vent water heater, oil tank removal, and 10 year full warranty) I have a 2K difference between 59TN6 - 2 stage furnace and 24ANB7 + Infinity Controller and 59SP5 and 24ABC air conditioner - both single stage with the Vision Pro controller. I figure the majority of my savings are simply from oil to gas conversion and primarily in heating and not that much from air conditioning costs. I spend about 200-250 per month on electricity and about 2000 per year on oil. The incremental saving from spending another 2K may take at least 5 to 10 years to recover as a payback period at about $15 to $25 per month and I am thinking of saving that 2K to use for other priority items. I will be covered anyway with a 10 year full warranty, so settling for single stage equipment would be a better economic decision. (Incidentally, the contractors absolutely refused to give me the 59TP5 and 24ACB two stage at a decent in between price - it seemed only about $300 short of the 59TN6 and 24ANB). Do you agree or am I missing anything critical? Thanks again. |
There will be a small savings by moving up to the 59TN6/24ANB7 combination versus the 59SP5/24ABC. You may not even see a payback in 10 years. The extra money does buy you additional comfort. If you like the fact that you will hardly ever hear your furnace or AC running, have better distribution of air flow throughout the house, and have better control of humidity in the summer, then the extra money would be worth it. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Sun, Nov 25, 12 at 16:03
That is crazy that they won't give you the in-between models at an in-between price. Did they give a reason? I think they make a lot on the Infinity control.I did not get an Infinity control (been told they are $500!) but I do have a 2-stage thermostat. Have you tried a little hardball yet? Do you have comparable prices from another contractor you could use? I don't know the comparable costs to the contractor but you could just give them an offer of giving you the TP5 and ACB7 for 1000 more than the lower or less than the higher. I finalized my deal by calling or emailing (I forget) and saying what models I wanted and what I would pay. I told the salesman that if he couldn't agree to it that he should ask whomever he needed to if they could give me that deal and said that I would commit to it if they did. They did and I did. I think they just want you to go for the higher price. I wonder if they get incentives for Infinity from the mfg? By giving you Infinity vs 1-stage they are hoping you will think 1-stage isn't good enough. That's my suspicious guess...No reason they shouldn't offer you something better. You got offered "good" and "best" and they skipped the "better" level, which is what mine was offered as...You might tell them you don't want just "good" but you can't (or just don't want/need) best and you would like to pay $x for "Better"...the TP5... Have fun. Try not to stress over it and don't let them beat you down! My 2 stage non -infinity is keeping me warm....that was the goal. I just bought a new 60" TV with the $ I could have spent on a higher level hvac....rather have the TV and the hvac I got. |
Thanks.. your advise is much appreciated. |
You could also wait until March when the rebates start again. The Infinity system usually has an $1100 rebate. The dealer funds half the rebate so you may not see all the savings. |
Cindy, Just saw your last update after responding to Mike. I did try with another smaller contractor who quoted even higher consistently for all configurations... So that's that. Thanks again for some very valuable insights. |
Mike, Thanks - but the NJ program at 0% may not be available next year, plus till March I may burn at least $800 of oil - therefore needed to do it this year. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Sun, Nov 25, 12 at 19:33
I think you will be doing ok with that. Any chance they will bump just the furnace to 2-stage for you for maybe $500 more than the 1 stage? The guy I know who got it all for 10k didn't have an oil tank removed but I think he got the 2 stage heat and the ABC air (1 stage). So it sounds like you are in line with his price. Hey, you're getting rid of the oil tank and getting a new system and air sealing for $83 month and nothing out of pocket, and you can use your $ for a new fridge. I want one of those french door ones too! I hate my side by side but it is only 11 years old and running strong... Did you pick one out yet? Are you doing much research? Maybe you can save me some time and let me know what's a good one and where has the best price! |
I did ask them to quote just for the 2 stage furnace since the heating is used much more than the AC and the quote was 11300 ! - not worth paying 1300 more - would make sense to then spend 2K more - for true 2 stage with Infiniti, so dropped the idea and am staying with single stage at 10K Fridge: Samsung samsung Model# RFG297HDRS We got this fridge at 1699 + Tax and shipping at Sears - list price is $2800. $1699 was the price all thru this week and not anything specific for Black Friday. I just noticed it is at 2609 on CYBER Monday(!) at Sears, BUT Amazon has it at $1699 - site says only 4 left so perhaps you can order and then cancel later if you wish. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_04681093000P?lid=IExTrans_ItemNumber_link&rioptype=SC&sid=IEx20121125TransSearsOrderConf&eml= http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Stainless-Steel-French-Refrigerator/dp/B004X0AC38 or you can wait for a few days and I am sure it will come back on sale around Christmas. You also get a $50 rebate from NJ if you trade on a working fridge and Sears picks it up for $10. Re reviews- my wife had researched Side by Sides as a replacement since we were not sure of the space needed and found Samsung highly rated but when we saw that the French door was only about 3 inches deeper and therefore not much of a space issue, it became a candidate. We loved the Fridge, got it delivered yesterday and the reviews also seem good. Using a Sears Card gives an additional 5% off. I also found a coupon for an extra $35 off. Good luck.. |
Mike, Thanks - but the NJ program at 0% may not be available next year, plus till March I may burn at least $800 of oil - therefore needed to do it this year. |
Cindy, Sears also has Model RFG296HDRS at 1699 on cyber Monday. I am not sure what is the difference from Model RFG297HDRS now listed at 2809 ! |
Cindy, to supplement the posts on air sealing and humidification (too many to read in detail), I encourage the air sealing, but I too advise holding off on humidification. When you were shown dirty attic insulation, that's an indication of inside air leaking into the attic, with the insulation as an air filter. Leakage of warmed air does two things. First, it costs you a lot of heat. Second, that air is being replaced by cold, dry outside air leaking in elsewhere (below the neutral pressure plane), and that air, when warmed up, has very low relative humidity. If you reduce the air leakage, you raise the interior RH. In a two-story house, there is considerable "stack effect," driving force to move air through your house. Air at 0 F is about 15% more dense than air at 70. If your house were immersed in water, you'd see where all the leaks are, and where the displaced air is bubbling out. You mentioned seeing frost on roofing nails in winter. That also is an indication that interior air, with higher humidity than outside air, is leaking into your attic. Air sealing the attic will shut this off. I hope that your attic has ridge and soffit ventilation, to keep the roof deck dry. I hope, too, that you don't have any bath fans dumping into the attic. Finally, on humidification, consider where that added moisture ultimately goes - out through the walls and into the attic, both places where you don't want excess moisture. Moisture in exterior walls and in the attic can lead to mold and rot. |
Wood or gas burning fireplace? Convert wood fireplace to gas? Mike - maybe you can advise on this. Am thinking of converting the wood fireplace (never used in 8 years since we moved here) t0 a gas fireplace, using gas logs. Does the fireplace/chimney need to be lined at all? Does it matter if I use vent free logs or Vented logs? I would need to run a gas line from one end of the house (supply in point), around the house and under the deck to the other side and punch a hole in the chimney wall and place the end in the fireplace where I could connect it to the gas logs. Do you see any safety concerns in laying a gas line around the edge of the house or should I simply run it off propane cylinders placed outside the fireplace exterior - see somebody has done that. Anything specific like min # of BTUs for gas logs that I shouuld look out for? Is this best done by a fireplace service provider? I am planning to ask the HVAC contractor give a quote for running a line to the other end of the house. Appreciate your advise. RJ |
I also feel that the cost of hooking gas logs to propane cylinders would be the cheapest option - in this case does the Chimney need to be lined / vented? Thanks, RJ |
If the chimney is made of brick, then it made have to be lined. Even if it is brick, I think a gas fireplace runs hot enough so it would not be a problem. Whether it is gas or propane should not matter. You should ask these questions to a company which specializes in fireplaces. My suggestion is to spend the extra money and run the gas line to the fireplace. It will be cheaper to operate and eliminate the issues of dealing with propane cylinders. I would rather have the gas pipe in the basement as much as possible. The other option is to burn wood. My neighbor and I split a cord of wood each year. This year we paid $200. It is a little more work, but you can't beat the smell, sound, and warmth of a wood burning fire. |
- Posted by cindywhitall (My Page) on Tue, Dec 4, 12 at 15:43
You should post your question in the fireplace forum to get lots of opinions. There is such a forum on gardenweb. My neighbor had some sort of deluxe fireplace installed. Not sure if it was an upgrade or if he never had one. He goes through mountains of wood but says it heats his whole house. He has a family room with a cathedral ceiling that has an opening to the second floor hallway and since heat rises...I think he said he used 5 cords of wood. I'm not sure, but I do recall thinking it was a lot of wood and it wasn't free (maybe one batch was free). I don't know how healthy that is to heat your house all the time with wood. Maybe it has doors and a filter...I don't know. He just got his gas bill and it was $50. Mine was $115, but I did have my mother-in-law here for a week with her "thin" FL blood so we had to keep the heat at 70-72 rather than 66-68. Neighbor and I both have tankless water heater. You might consider wood as a cheaper back up option and also ask on the other forum about a unit that can use gas and/or wood. That's what I would do if I had the $. On another note...MY gas usage on the current bill was higher than last year. Last year we used 65 ccf for a 28 day bill period with avg temp on bill listed as 49.6 This year we used 82 Ccf on a 33 day cycle with a temp of 45.5. The longer bill cycle, lower temp and mother-in-law makes it hard for me to see if my 97% heater,air sealing and tankless SAVED me anything over my old 91% furnace without air seal and my 57% water heater. I have to wait for a bill cycle that more closely matches the temp etc to tell if it helped or not. |
I once read, forget where, that $1 of natural gas contains more BTUs than $1 of wood. So in addition to being a cheaper source of heat, using natrual gas is also a lot less work. If he's cutting down his own trees, it's a different cost story. But who wants to have to do that? Replacing a 91% furnace that was working fine with a 97% furnace will never pay for itself. |
I am replacing my HVAC as part of the Energy Star program. The AC is Trane XL1200 (unit says 1997 - could be a bit younger) and it works absolutely fine. Is there any trade-in or resale value for this? |
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text:
A team working for the women in Nigeria, Women Arise has decided to march for justice for the two women brutalized in Ejigbo area of Lagos over alleged theft of pepper.
In a press released signed by Dr. Joe Okei-Odumakin, President, Women Arise for Change Initiative said that, the march/ rally will take place in front of Femine Cafe located at the Lagos Television (LTV) to Lagos State House of Assembly, Alausa, Ikeja, on Monday, December 23, 2013 by 10am.
Attached in the release is the picture of a naked lady on her knees with unidentified men holding an object.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Bush's Bloodbath in Babylon: 'Coincidence' and Consequences |
Written by Chris Floyd |
Tuesday, 18 July 2006 07:55 |
Neighbors are Killing Neighbors (Washington Post): After more than a week of some of the most vicious sectarian violence of the war, Baghdad is a skeleton of a city: Many of its shops are shuttered, its streets drained of people.The violence erupted July 9 when Shiite Muslim militiamen rampaged through the al-Jihad neighborhood and killed dozens of Sunni Arabs. By Friday, the sixth day, the death toll in Baghdad stood at 628 people, according to Brig. Gen. Mahmoud Nima of the Interior Ministry, citing a figure that far exceeded the numbers previously suggested by news reports. Iraq Draws First Front Line of Civil War (Sunday Telegraph): …Many of the recruits to Iraq's fledging armed forces are drawn from al-Sadr's militias. As Iraqi security forces and the US military are accused of turning a blind eye to the slaughter, observers fear that the country has reached a third, even more intractable, phase in the recent conflict, beyond insurgency and beyond even combat between organised armed groups. "What we're now seeing has no shape whatever," a Western diplomat said. "It's just everyone fighting everyone. Anarchy." Can it be a total coincidence that the hellstorm of murder and mayhem that has now turned Baghdad into "a skeleton of a city" began just after Bush and al-Maliki announced their ballyhooed "security push," pouring thousands of new troops and police into the capital's streets? Can it be a total coincidence that much of the new violence has been carried out by "men dressed in the uniforms of the Iraqi police," to use the timid euphemism adopted by the mainstream media, and by militia forces associated with perhaps the key political player in the new "sovereign" government, the hidebound religious crank Motqada al-Sadr? Can it be a total coincidence that the new horror devouring the conquered land has led some hardline Sunni leaders once bitterly opposed to the U.S. occupation now want American forces to stay, in order to quell the chaos, offset Shiite dominance and ward off Iranian influence? Can it be a total coincidence that this desire bolsters the Bush Regime's long-held intention to establish a permanent military presence in Iraq? Can it be a total coincidence that the steady rise in militia violence – now reaching apocalyptic heights – has followed the Bush Regime's open bruiting of the "Salvador Option" – i.e., employing militias and death squads as part of "counterinsurgency" operations in Iraq, just like those Reagan-Bush glory days of yore, when the ditches and back alleys of Central America ran red with the blood of innocent thousands slaughtered by U.S.-backed, U.S.-bought terrorists? Can it be a total coincidence that this rise followed the implementation of the Bush Regime's lavishly-funded, openly attested program "to arm and train non-governmental 'local militias' – i.e., bands of lawless freebooters – to serve as Washington's proxy killers in the so-called 'arc of crisis" that just happens to stretch across the oil-bearing lands and strategic pipeline routes of Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia and South America," as we reported in August 2004? That's when then-Pentagon poo-bah Paul Wolfowitz told a Congressional committee that: Bush wants big bucks [the request was for $500 million] to run 'counter-insurgency' and 'counter-terrorist' operations in 'ungoverned areas' of the world – and in the hinterlands of nations providing 'sanctuary' for terrorists. Making copious citations from Bush's 2002 'National Security Strategy' of unprovoked aggressive war against 'potential' enemies, Howlin' Wolf proposed expanding the definition of "terrorist sanctuary" to any nation that allows clerics and other rabble-rousers to offer even verbal encouragement to America's designated enemies du jour. Any rogue state that countenances such freedom of speech within its borders will become a prime target for 'the path of action,' said Wolf, quoting Bush's most ringing Hitlerian phrase from the 2002 manifesto. To relieve the overstretched U.S. military, the 'action' will be carried out largely by Bush's new hired guns: religious and ethnic militias, tribal forces, mercenaries, cultists, insurrectionists, druglords, pirates – basically anyone willing to slit throats and terrorize populations at the order of the Oval One. Can it really be a total coincidence that the rise in sectarian and terrorist murder follows the Pentagon's adoption of a plan to foment terrorism by infiltrating violent groups and goading them into action? I first wrote of this plan back in November 2002, when it first surfaced via outstanding investigative work by William Arkin. Then in January 2005, Sy Hersh came up with the goods to confirm that the plan was indeed in operation. As I wrote then: Not only will U.S.-directed agents infiltrate existing terrorist groups and provoke them into action; the Pentagon itself will create its own terrorist groups and "death squads." After establishing their terrorist "credentials" through various atrocities and crimes, these American-run groups will then be able to ally with – and ultimately undermine – existing terrorist groups. Top-level officials in the Pentagon, the U.S. intelligence services and the Bush administration confirmed to Hersh that the plan is going forward, under the direction of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld – just as we noted here in November 2002. Through a series of secret executive orders, George W. Bush has given Rumsfeld the authority to turn the entire world into "a global free-fire zone," a top Pentagon adviser says. These secret operations will be carried out with virtually no oversight; in many cases, even the top military commanders in the affected regions will not be told about them. The American people, of course, will never know what's being done in their name. The covert units – including the Pentagon-funded terrorist groups and hit squads – will be operating outside all constraints of law and morality. "We're going to be riding with the bad boys," one insider told Hersh. Another likened it to the palmy days of the Reagan-Bush years: "Do you remember the right-wing execution squads in El Salvador? We founded them and we financed them. The objective now is to recruit locals in any area we want. And we aren't going to tell Congress about it"… Incredibly, as Hersh notes, the Bushists are now openly citing a sinister role model for their campaign: Britain's brutal repression of the Mau Mau in Kenya during the 1950s, when British forces set up concentration camps, created their own terrorist groups and killed thousands of innocent civilians in putting down an "insurgency" against their colonial rule. And in fact, Rumsfeld and other Bush officials increasingly talk of combating not just terrorism but a "global insurgency" – as if the whole world is now an American colony, filled with recalcitrant "natives" rising up against their rightful masters. Can it really be a complete and total coincidence, an amazing accident of history, that the "blood-dimmed tide" now loosed upon Iraq follows so closely upon the Bush Regime's plans to foment terrorism, employ death squads and "ride with the bad boys" in order to achieve its strategic goals – and that the reign of terrorism, death squads and bad boys now ravaging Iraq has convinced even some of the most recalcitrant opponents of the occupation that American forces should stay in Iraq…which happens to be one of the Regime's primary strategic goals? Without in any way imputing the hydra-headed hell in Iraq to a single cause – for of course as with all human events, the situation there has coalesced from a myriad of different, confused, even contradictatory factors – can we really say that the rise in violence has nothing to do with the plans and intentions of the Bush Regime outlined above? Is it really just a complete coincidence? *** |


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This Official Georgia Local Welcome Center offers complete information on Cartersville and Adairsville, Georgia area motels, restaurants, attractions and more! In addition you can find free travel information on more than 300 peachy Georgia destinations. Visitors will enjoy the following amenities:
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Recent Comments:
WoW Moviewatch: ZA {WoW}
Mar 9th 2012 2:44PM Yay if she's canadian! I'm canadian and I say "Zed" but with ZA, I've always said it as "Zee-A", and I think it's just because so many of my guildies over the years have been american, and I get tired of them ragging on me for my 'messed up canadian speech'. It's always funny the first time, but after 7 years of it, it got old. Actually, I wonder if this part of the reason, I almost never speak on vent anymore...
Me - "Yay about time we downed him!"
Some Guy - "What the heck did she should say? AboOOot!"
Them -
Me - *headdesk*
And heaven forbid if I ever say "eh?" I won't hear the end of it for the rest of the raid.
GDC 2012: Bigpoint discusses the Game of Thrones MMO {Massively}
Mar 9th 2012 11:22AM I wonder if questing will follow the typical style of the storytelling in the books.
Epic Quest Chain - Mount!
Get a colt from a local breeder in return if you help his local village. Help his local village, but get drafted into war. So south and get caught up in politics. Compete in a swordmanship competition. Get caught up in grab for the throne, flee the country on a ship before your family gets entirely wiped out.
You are now thousands of leagues from home. You are now lvl 50. You wonder what happened to the colt; you still don't have a mount.
Yeah I'm sorta trolling.
Scroll of Resurrection revamp active, includes free level 80 character {WoW}
Mar 6th 2012 4:39PM The anual pass isn't so much about customer loyality, but retaining subs and it worked fairly well. If it was a real loyality plan we'd get something that rewarded you for time already played, instead of pre-paying/contracting for another year.
Scroll of Resurrection revamp active, includes free level 80 character {WoW}
Mar 6th 2012 4:25PM I've been a pretty loyal customer, where's my free 55 bucks worth of transfers? Huff.
Blizzard buffs the bejeezus out of WoW's Scroll of Resurrection {Massively}
Mar 6th 2012 4:18PM So as a loyal customer for quite some time, I have to pay 55(25 server, 30 faction) bucks to join my hordie buddies... but someone who stopped playing gets it for free? Appartently I need to quit to get rewards... go figure.
So I started to play Rift, I like Rift and at least I get free realm transfers.
Blizzard announces layoffs of 600 employees worldwide {Massively}
Mar 1st 2012 11:17AM @Mcsniper Cable companies in canada are the devil, so is our phone service provider. And an oil company that's greedy? Who knew! =P I never knew there was greed when it came to oil ;)
It still comes as a surprise from our precious Blizzard, as the player base has them elevated at such high regard, and it can be crushing to some people to see Blizzard behave like a fat cat. I think a lot of people thought Blizzard above this.
Like many have said, trimming employees does happen, but 600 seems like a lot to me. I imagine they axed an entire project plus some bloat perhaps? Still terrible news for those 600 employees in today's troubles.
Bigpoint's A Game of Thrones MMO to debut at GDC 2012 {Massively}
Feb 29th 2012 10:37AM @Tom in VA I actually agree with you. The first three books were great, and I was hooked. The fourth book was good, but I was disappointed he had to split it into Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons. I was so excited when Dance of Dragons came out. Finally! The series is coming to a critical point that the other four books were leading up too. Finally, this book must have what I want because of the title. I have been waiting for this. Only I was very disappointed. It didn't come to a critical point, it was simply a 5th book leading to a critical point.
Also, I have three dogs locked in my basement. They are the fastest, strongest dogs, that ever lived. If I compete with them, they will win me back my family's title as the best breeder. Only, I'm kinda afraid of them, and I'd rather play politics, because I don't feel they are worth my time. So instead I'll leave them locked in my basement until the die, or do something horrible, because I really can't be bothered with them.
The Queue: I'm Ronald D. Moore {WoW}
Feb 9th 2012 11:28AM You gave me an idea. What if the world events had multiple titles? Finish it once get the Noble, finish it five times and get the Very Noble, finish it 10 times and get the Greater Noble or something. I'm not good at names. That way it give sa shout out to the people who did it a few times!
The Queue: I'm Ronald D. Moore {WoW}
Feb 9th 2012 11:23AM Running randoms on my hunter to get her up to LFR, I get bad players every 3 to 5 dungeons, so far I've had a resto druid and a DK take the agility trinket. I'm more angry about the DK than a the druid, at least the druid can use it for kitty. And I guess the haste would be nice for a DK, but I'm still stuck with a 359 and a 333 longingly looking at LFR. I've had a mage that was rude to everyone in the run. I've had mages/warlocks pull for tanks. I've seen quite a few classes doing 5k. So every 15 to 25 people I group with, I find a bad player (either clueless, rude, or a jerk.) Seems about right to find a few bad apples in a group of 25 people ;)
As for titles being account wide. Honestly, I thought about this a lot, because I want it. Some titles make sense to be account wide and some don't, but you can reason it either way. I thought maybe PVP titles should be character only, but I know playing certain specs can make it extremely difficult to get these titles, even for a seasoned pvper. I thought maybe raid titles should be character only, but then I thought, it's not hard to go back and get them again at a higher level, provided you can get a group together. Getting your guild back into old content to get your alt a title/mount, can be hard though. Then I get to titles like the Insane. It requires a lot of work (less now with the changes), and since rep levels are character level, it should be character level.... except it's so much work you should be able to show it off all the time.
I settled on this pretty much. All pets, titles, mounts, achievemnts are account wide. Certain mounts and titles have requirements. Opposite faction mounts do not even appear in the list. Stormwind horses require exalted with stormwind, ulduar drakes require lvl 80, etc. Though I honestly don't care if I see a lvl 20 running around on Invincible and the dragonslayer title, I find it funny, but I agree it would break immersion.
The Queue: G-Men {WoW}
Feb 6th 2012 11:30AM My shaman is dressed in pink armor, so I wanted to get the love fool title on her, but now I'm remembering why I stopped doing all world events. I remember the original Love is in the Air event, but I have a hard time deciding if this is better or worse. Do you think this event still needs a little love? To me it comes off as too much of a grind. It's not hard to get the event done for the title, but it seems to me log. Of course I have a huge dislike for any daily quests at this point because I'm trying to keep four 85s raid ready.
Don't get me wrong, I have the love fool on serveral characters as well with other titles. The one I have the most is the noble. I have received that title on over 8+ characters and every mage I have ever made that existed for that event either knows poly bunny or has it in their bank. This is the reason I have a hard time doing them on a new character. It just becomes "Oh god not again."
And I'm a little concerned about the petals on horde classes and race combos. I will pvp in hopes to get a few, but I really miss the days when I could sit around dalaran and just toss them with ease.


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Stampede Rail Topz Camo Tailgate Caps Reviews Looks good Reviewed By Steve M (Bradenton, FL) Reviewed for a 2001 Chevy Silverado —11/19/2014 2:01 PM Looks very good did not think it could scratch but already has a scratch mark on it View More Reviews
Dee Zee Brite-Tread Tailgate Cap Reviews Perfect Protection Reviewed By Tom S (Barnesville, GA) Reviewed for a 1995 Chevy S10 Pickup —11/13/2014 4:05 AM This tailgate protector is made of good quality materials, looks great, and was very affordable. Thank you AutoAnything! View More Reviews
Bushwacker Ultimate SmoothBack TailGate Cap Reviews Great price compared to dealer! Reviewed By Barry B (EDEN PRAIRIE, MN) Reviewed for a 2003 Chevy Silverado —10/31/2014 11:41 AM the dealer wanted $100 or more for this piece of plastic. View More Reviews


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We went to Dicks last night and had an amazing time. The men were very very attentive and the music was great. The only downfall was the way the club looked on the inside. the chairs were old and the ceiling looked like it would fall apart at any minute. However we really didnt care because of the men there, The Cowboy, Pearson, and of course Evan were very attentive and accomadating to what we wanted and thought we needed. THANKS FOR A GREAT NIGHT, WE WILL BE BACK!
Best Strip Clubs for Ladies Phoenix 2009 - Dick's Cabaret and II Dick's
3432 E. Illini St.
Phoenix, AZ 85040
While there's a slew of bars around this 'burg — both gay and straight — offering "all-male revues" (read: hunky men stripping down to their unmentionables), only two clubs in the Valley dare go for the "Full Monty": Dick's Cabaret and its recently opened spin-off, II Dick's. Both flesh parlors serve up more lean meat than a butcher shop, featuring dozens of strapping male dancers getting as nude as the day they were born, each night of the week.
And it isn't just gay men stopping by for an eyeful, as an equal number of females turn out at either location to ogle boys and bros alike, gazing at six-pack abs, bulging muscles, and, uh, ample endowments that their boyfriends or husbands might not possess. Nightly deals are also offered (such as one admission price that gets you into both clubs, as well as $5 cover and dances on Wednesdays and Thursdays), so the lovely and licentious ladies of the Valley can transform into cat-calling looky-loos on the cheap. Where's the beef (or more specifically, "Where's the beefcake?")? It's down at Dick's Cabaret, yo.


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"Obama is now a 'born again neocon.'"
Submitted by Sincerus on Tue, 01/29/2013 - 01:38No allegation against Iran is too wild for the U.S. corporate media megaphone. The fact that Iran's modest arms industry makes a small proportion of the bullets floating around Africa is made to seem the equivalent of a mushroom cloud. "While the U.S. spins its AFRICOM web and plans to send troops to 35 different countries, Iran alone is accused of bringing violence to the continent."
Trending on the Web
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"Born again neocon" is a more
"Born again neocon" is a more apt description of Rand Paul.
At least Obama is attempting some balance with the Hagel appointment.
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
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The couple will wed in a 2:30 p.m. ceremony on May 19 in the Lee University Chapel.
The bride-elect is the granddaughter of Evelyn Field of Cincinnati, Paul Field of Lilburn, Ga., the late William Thomas and the late Ella Mae Thomas. She is the sister of Angie Thomas, Sara Thomas and Zoe Thomas, all of Cincinnati.
Miss Thomas is a 2011 graduate of Lee University and is employed by Life Care centers of America. She is a member of the Church of God.
The future bridegroom is the grandson of Martha Wooden, Tom Wooden and Doris Hughes, all of Cleveland, and the late Robert Hughes. He is the brother of Ryan Wooden of Cleveland.
Mr. Wooden is a 2011 graduate of Lee University and is employed by MainStreet Personal Finance.


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The new Samsung AdHub Market, Powered by OpenX is set to be launched as a private exchange available specifically to advertisers looking for mobile ad inventory on smartphones and tablets.
And there may more ad network shoes to fall. Samsung said Adhub is expected to launch sometime in the second half of this year and is part of its vision to offer sophisticated targeted solutions to advertisers.
Using a real-time bidding model, the AdHub exchange is designed to let app developers get the most from their ad revenue by selling their inventory to buyers who compete for each impression in a real-time auction with a minimum floor price.
"Samsung is empowering both the developer and the advertiser, by creating a win-win solution in which the app developer is able to achieve higher revenues and advertisers are able to reach their marketing goals," said Daniel Park, VP of Samsung's Media Solutions Center. "To this extent, we believe RTB (real-time-bidding) can play an important role in motivating all players and we're delighted to partner with OpenX and use its excellent technology as the foundation for it."
The opportunity for Samsung, even in a crowded field of ad networks, is huge. Gartner estimates worldwide mobile advertising revenue in 2011 was $3.3 billion and is on track to grow to $20.6 billion by 2015 — a 520% growth rate in less than five years. Although North America and Western Europe are regions where mobile advertising budgets will likely grow most in coming years (representing 28% and 25% respectively by 2015), Asia/Pacific and Japan will continue to dominate the global market share with 33.6% of the mobile advertising budget in 2015, according to Gartner.
This was not the first "AdHub" Samsung has announced. Earlier this year, the company launched Samsung AdHub for SmartTV advertising, designed to let brands deliver 3D, video, and other interactive advertisements into the living room via Samsung's SmartTVs.


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ATLANTA — LR Resources will unveil its new 9,300 square-foot showroom at AmericasMart next month during the Atlanta International Area Rug Market. About 80 percent larger than its original showroom, the expanded space will be located in #4F11 in Building 1.
Besides being able to show more of its rugs and other categories, LR Resources will also showcase the line of Trade Am Designs, which it recently acquired.
LR Resources first opened in AmericasMart six years ago, and only shows its line at the rug market here. Its line consists of hand-spun, -tufted and -knotted rugs, as well as bath mats, towels, chenille products and small furniture. The Trade Am acquisition included its design and marketing team.


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Chicago Fire – NBC
Chicago has a rich and storied history of high quality, long running television shows being shot inside the city and another edition to that list is set to begin production. Chicago Fire from creator Dick Wolf (Law & Order) has been picked up for series by NBC and casting calls and auditions for the exciting first season will be held very soon for parts of all sizes.
Chicago Fire is being described as ER (another NBC program shot frequently in the Chicago area) in a firehouse and will follow the heroic saves and personal exploits of the brave men and women that work in and around the Engine 55 firehouse of the Chicago Fire Department. The show will feature the talents of Jesse Spencer (House), Monica Raymund (Lie To Me), Lauren German (Hawaii Five-O) and Taylor Kinney (The Vampire Diaries) as the main characters in this sure to be hit production. Casting directors and producers of Chicago Fire are preparing their search for actors in Chicago and the surrounding areas for gifted performers to fill out their cast throughout the season. Auditions and casting calls will be happening very soon so be sure to stay tuned right here for all of the exciting updates and leave a comment on this show below.
The next great Chicago shot television program is coming and so is your chance to make your TV acting break. Stay tuned for all of the up to minute casting updates for the NBC drama series Chicago Fire.
Creation's Birthday – Play Superfan – Reality TV
4 thoughts on "Chicago Fire – NBC"
I would like to audition for a part in the series. If you will please email me when auditions start.
Great show and like to land a part in the T.V show, keep up the the good work for the "Chi"..
Hi my name is Steven Dotson and I've live in L.A played in " pretty little liars" Bones" and " Criminal Minds" and I would like to come out and audition for the show. I attended Peter Wise Acting Studoi in Culver City L.A..
i am a chicago firefighter ,and would like to be considered for chicago fire.


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Questions for specific Buick LeSabre years:
Buick Q&A
Ask Your QuestionAll Buick LeSabre questions
LR lock inop replaced actuator still inop also door ajar light stays on
My heat dont work n dont blow any warm or cold air
My ABS and traction Control remain off and DIC readings are questionsalbe.
I used to be able to tap the brakes to get the ABS light to extinguish but now the ABS light is a...
where EXACTLY is radiator drain on 2000 buick lesabre.
just need a specific location for a 2000 buick lesabre drain valve or if there is one. Ill stop l...
My rear defrost is not working on my '98 LeSabre.
I was hit (traffic accident) in the rear side of the LeSabre.
Driver side rear blinker is not working checked all fuses and bulb all good
leaking coolant from bottom of car
I filled the coolant box once before and noticed it was very low yesterday as I was running erran...
my back driver side brake light an turn signal quit working help
the front left side blinker works if i do it myself. my passenger side blinker an brake light wor...
have ISSUES WITH NO AIR COMING OUT OF VENTS
i WAS DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD AND HAD THE DEFROSTER ON HEAT. smoke CAME OUT OF IT AFTER ABOUT 10 MI...
What is error code B2734, coded key controlled memory failure?
Car died several times going down the road. Several no starts. Intermittent dragging of starter...
My 94 leSabre has an OBDII connection but cannot be read by OBDII scanner.
Car won't start
After having some work done on my radiator, it being removed and put back on my hood wouldn't...
Erratic tach, bounces to a reading that seems reasonable & then to lay at zero
Tach erratic, bounces at will but mostly rests at zero. Do not know what drives the tach, mechani...
Why is the car hesitating?
the car generally runs fantastic it just started this hesitation.when you are accelerating from a...
no crank, all lights working, fuel pump charges intake rail, no click of sol.
was an intermittent problem, if you waited 20 minutes it would start. now nothing. could the pa...
When i turn off my car my interior and brake lights stay on, its killing battery
I have a 2000 buick lesabre and i have one that was wrecked the same year model
the one had a bad motor in it i changed motor and transmission both i unplugged the wiring harnes...
Is there a relay for cruise control for my 1997 buick ?
Cruise does not work is this electrical or in The turn signal handle ?
Why is my Buick Lesabre 1998 using a lot of oil?
I already replaced the intake manifold gaskets. I don't see any leaks or smoke and it runs fi...
Can I use parts from a 1998 LeSabre
Like the windshield, struts and springs?
89 buick lesabre won't start started in driveway and just shut off
When I make a left hand turn the brake light dings & the brake light comes on
Usually stays on until I turn engine off, Could this be a sensor or something more serious?
How expensive should flywheel repair be
Car was running totally fine until I went to start it and the motor wouldn't crank and I hear...


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ITV has commissioned a one-off adaptation of the novel The Making of a Marchioness by author and playwright Frances Hodgson Burnett.
The 120-minute drama, entitled The Making of a Lady, has been adapted for the screen by Kate Brooke, who has previously written dramas such as Mr Selfridge, The Forsyte Saga and Wired.
Production company Runaway Fridge TV, which made Page Eight for the BBC, will produce the drama.
Stevie Lee, Runaway Fridge TV's executive producer, said: "We're thrilled [to be] making this film for ITV and lucky to have such a wonderful script from Kate Brooke."
Richard Curson Smith, who has previously worked on ITV's crime drama Wire in the Blood, will direct the adaptation and filming in Manchester and Stoke will begin in August.


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| Home | Advertise with Us | Circulation | Contact Us | About Us | Send a Letter to the Editor |
In the 1970s, I remember a vibrant downtown. I remember Wayne Valentine as the Voice of Winona. I had great fun in the 1970s in Winona County. I was young then. Looking back however, hmmm probably, not everything I did was beneficial. You see over the years Ive learned a few things.
People in Winona County have learned a few too. We have learned about better land use practices, respecting other cultures and the effects of changing weather patterns in the Midwest. One need only look at Highway 61 near La Crescent, Highway 14 at the Arches and the devastation caused by the hard rain of 2007 to know erosion is a real problem in Winona County. We dont need a Land Use Ordinance from the 1970s. We dont need to ignore what we have learned. We dont need to go backwards.
We need to be good neighbors. We need to give each other a little room. We need to protect the earth that gives us good water and good food. We need to remember we all call Winona County home. Maybe Winona can have a vibrant downtown again but we cant put destroyed bluffs back.
Commissioner Valentine, neither you nor I can go back to the 1970s. Neither you nor I can be young again, but Commissioner Valentine you can be the Voice of Winona County. It is my hope Sir, that you will Vote No for the changes being proposed to the Land Use Ordinance. Take us to a protected future by Voting NO. Bless the next generation with the same place to grow old that we have both enjoyed. I dont care what anyone says, I am counting on you, County Commissioner Valentine, to protect our home.


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Tue, May 27, 08 at 23:44
I just purchased a Kenmore 16315 Gas Grill. Assembly took a little longer than the manual indicates but overall not bad. All 5 main burners fire right up via electronic ignition, and the side burner works fine, but I cannot get the infrared rotisserie burner to fire up. I know it's getting spark from the igniter (I can see it). I do not have the main burners or side burner fired up when trying to ignite the rotisserie. I also do not hear or smell any gas when I turn the rotisserie control to 'High' and try to ignite.
Any suggestions ? Thanks |
Follow-Up Postings:
- Posted by weedmeister (My Page) on Sat, May 31, 08 at 23:32
Does it have a thermocouple? if so, I think you have to put a flame to it. |
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Wedding Ceremony Package:
$1085 - Member Rate / $1135 - Nonmember Rate*
*Peak wedding season rates (Memorial Day wknd-Labor Day wknd) are $1130/member & $1185/nonmember.
Rental of Ceremony Area (5 hr. access day of ceremony)
Rehearsal (2 hr. access)
Does not include setup or access for decorating
Outdoor ceremonies may include additional charges
Package includes:
- Staff person on site during rehearsal and ceremony
- Unity table with white linen
- White sheer backdrop for alcove window
- 6 wooden pillars (4 - 4' pillars and 2 - 3' pillars)
- White resin padded folding chairs
Wedding Reception Package:
$2,025 - Member Rate / $2,130 - Nonmember Rate*
*Peak wedding season rates (Memorial Day wknd-Labor Day wknd) are $2,125/member & $2,240/nonmember.
Rental of entire second floor (Access from 8 a.m.-midnight)
(Cy's Lounge and Burnet Alumni Living Room, Reiman Ballroom, and Newlin Terrace)
Package includes:
- Staff person on site for full day of the event
- Access to inventory of tables and chairs
- Access to projectors, TVs, one wireless microphone, audiovisual equipment and hookups
- White floor-length linens for guest tables and cocktail tables (24)
- White chair covers
- Can lights for perimeter ballroom lighting (10)
- Tablecloths for guest book, place card, gift tables
- Skirting for the head table and cake table
- Dance floor (16' x 28')
- Free accessible parking
- Setup and removal of tables and chairs
Entire Wedding Package:
$3,110 - Member Rate / $3,265 - Nonmember Rate*
*Peak wedding season rates (Memorial Day wknd-Labor Day wknd) are $3,255/member & $3,425/nonmember.
Includes all of the items from the Wedding Ceremony and Wedding Reception packages.
View facility rental policies for weddings
View approved catering list
View photos from past events at the ISU Alumni Center
View videos from past events at the ISU Alumni Center