text:
Greetings all, A lot of those recombinants will be culled in the next few days, but I will be showing some pictures of specimens that I liked and kept for breeding purposes. In these massed beds, I plant zinnia seeds about 4 to 6 inches apart in rows spaced 16 inches apart. After each grouping of three rows, I leave a wider space to serve as a "path". From this angle, you can't see the paths in the picture. |
Follow-Up Postings:
Hi ZM... I Am REALLY Enjoying this Thread.... As I live in a 1st Floor Flat at the moment I haven't been able to Grow any of My own.... But I'm Hoping to Move to a Ground Floor Flat, Hoperfly I'll get to Grow Some in a Few pots at least.... |
- Posted by doubleAmom 5 (My Page) on Thu, Jul 5, 12 at 12:22
Oh ZM, I am soooo jealous of your zinnia patch! Would love to do something like that in the future. What size is the patch in your picture? Is it your only one? |
Hi NC, It got the two-tone effect from Whirligig ancestry. The flower form is also very much influenced by Whirligig, although it is much larger than a Whirligig. It is definitely not Dahlia flowered or Cactus flowered or Chrysanthemum flowered. I have been referring to the longer petaled flowers with loose, somewhat "open" flowers, as Aster flowered. Although this is not the purest form of the aster flowered flower form. I really like its coloration, and the flower form is fine with me too. |
Hi Katrina, I think of that zinnia flower form as "chrysanthemum flowered". Some people might call it "cactus flowered". It has a yellow center, while some truly white zinnias have a matching white center. I intend to pollinate it with its own pollen or pollen from other reasonably good white zinnias. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Jul 6, 12 at 11:56
ZM, I love your zinnia patch! It looks wonderful despite the hot weather! Your red/purple and white flowers are beautiful, too! Your expansion plans are really impressive! It is going to be a very pretty area around your yard! I've got a few flowers beginning to bloom, but nothing different yet--except a Whirligig without petals and a contorted July Bonnet descendent. I tried watering them all by hand early this morning--hope it helps! I, too, have branched out in gardenng....the sunflowers are holding their own, as are the daturas...but I think I may lose a number of perennials. I also have squash, cucumbers, and small watermelons growing. The watermelons seem to be the only ones of those that resist total wilting during the high temperatures despite the amount of water they have been given. I have a large number of tomatoes..many of the heirlooms are failing to set fruit despite many flowers..but I may get something from the hybrids and the cherry tomatoes. Looking forward to seeing everyone's photos here! JG |
ZM, the color combination of that first specimen you showed us is wonderful. It looks like it's glowing from within. Is that a true representative or my computer/eyes? |
Rhizo, the colors are real. I have one just like it in my bed. In fact, I have 2 just like it and am going to save seeds from the larger one. Petals aren't curled on mine, though. |
Hi Rhizo, That bloom has added many petals and the flower form has transitioned into a fairly classic cactus flowered zinnia. Which is unfortunate, because overlapping petals conceal many interesting petal colorations. But it is what it is, and this is a reasonably accurate representation of the bloom as it was when I took its picture yesterday. I am glad that I set my camera to the Adobe RGB color space, and I intend to leave it there. So this has been a kind of "live and learn" experience for me. |
Hey ZM, just wanted to say that your new pictures are lovely. I would only suggest switching to the "A" mode on your camera, and try increasing the number until the entire flower is sharp (may have to have stronger lighting or a tripod). The first Google result seems pretty thorough on this topic, if you're interested. I would post more pictures but I haven't had time to do much more than water and cut the occasional plant. I'm gonna attempt to plant some more seeds tomorrow and hope they make it through this heat and drought. It seems like a losing battle. Oh, by the way, a new bloom opened on that three-in-one flower's plant. It doesn't show the same effect, sadly. I'm thinking it was just a fluke. |
Hi TC, De-noising in the raw file post processing (using DxO's Optics Pro 7) effectively removed the noise caused by the high ISO and saved the image in a 16-bit per channel lossless TIFF file. I down-sampled the 6016 x 4000 pixel TIFF in Photoshop CS3 to the 986 x 664 pixel JPEG file that is linked in above. It shows one of my three-centered zinnias. So far all of the side blooms on my three-centered specimens have been normal, the same as your specimen. However, I think the tendency for fractured centers is genetic, with increased probability for multi-centers in the saved seed. |
I went out and pulled as many weeds as I could find, cut out some old blooms, and spread a layer of new seeds out. Here's a funny coincidence in unlucky zinnias: I have no idea why one is missing petals and the other is missing the entire center, but it's pretty funny looking. The heat and drought has pretty much ravaged everything here, and my zinnias are no exception. Seems the hotter it gets, the more desperate bugs seem to be, and also the worse my garden turns out. At least my peppers seem to be holding up. |
Hi TC, The only reason I am interested in these oddball zinnias is in case they can evolve into zinnias with several flower heads on a single stem. I have seen hints that such a thing might be possible, such as two flowers on the same stem. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Wed, Jul 11, 12 at 17:30
Hi all, My zinnias are finally starting to bloom. No rain yet, but the watering-with-water can is helping! Below-- a gold cactus, a yellow cactus, and a July Bonnet descendent: I have some Extreme Rolls ready to bloom,...will post those in a week or so. ZM, those last zinnias are really pretty. especially the silver color! JG |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Thu, Jul 12, 12 at 21:23
Hello! Here are several new flowers, coming sooner than expected: Expression of the quilled trait isn't uniform, as usual...but it almost seems that the red/purple color is linked to that type of petal...I have only seen a few exceptions so far... The flowers are coming quickly now....it sure makes a difference to go out into the garden and see all the color! JG |
Two "any kind of" comments: I just hope no one breeds away that wonderful, famous pale gray-pink zinnia color of yesteryear. That pink can never be duplicated. A bouquet of zinnias is what my Mother always bought me from the Saturday morning farmers market when I was a child. I am 71, so my memory is a long one and a sweet one. I never see a zinnia without thinking of her gifts. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Jul 13, 12 at 15:11
Hi everyone, Here are a few more of what are coming out: Many of my scabious hybrids show the larger petals of other types zinnias. A good number of the zinnias here have shorter, curly petals toward the center. Some of the Envy zinnias open in pretty ways! JG |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Jul 13, 12 at 15:19
Pat, I think many of us have a lot of sentiment with respect to zinnias. My grandmother used to have a huge patch of them that I spent hours in, looking at all the butterflies, bees, and hummingbirds they attracted. With the color and memories, they are "feel-good' flowers... You're so right about those silvery flowers that ZM grows..very classy. JG |
JG, The garden was losing the light at the time I took that, so it is a little under-exposed. I seem to have better luck with pictures taken in open shade than in direct sunlight. |
Hi all, But I want to show it anyway because it shows some subtle nuances of pastel coloration that come from Whirligig "blood". This is another more-in-focus picture of a similar zinnia. Zinnias can have some nice looking two-tone and sometimes three-tone petal colorations, all courtesy of Whirligigs. This just motivates me to grow some more Whirligigs for breeding purposes. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Mon, Jul 16, 12 at 10:53
ZM, The purple color in scabious flowers is not common in my garden. Those are really nice. I also like the cactus flowers with several tones in them..I also think the whirligig influence brings a lot of possibilities to offspring plants. Most of my zinnias just come from a "general" population of seeds I collect from random crosses each year. I often don't get fancy flowers, but I see a lot of interesting color combinations. I am seeing more and more of the rolled flowers. I think you are right about a combination of genes involved in that phenotype. Definitely inherited, but probably hybrid for several traits. You were talking earlier about white zinnias. There was a paper that came out in 1988 by Boyle and Stimart. They did a limited number of studies, but suggested that the white color in zinnias was caused by a dominant suppressor of carotenoid synthesis. Flowers either homozygous or heterozygous for that gene will be white. So, if you have a flower that is homozygous for that gene, you can cross it with flowers of any color and get all white offspring. When you cross the offspring, you should see only 1 in 4 offspring that show color. That is according to what B & S saw and what cultivars of Zinnia elegans they were using...might be exceptions! JR |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Mon, Jul 16, 12 at 11:01
ZM, I wanted to ask--are your seeds from plants with tubular flowers giving rise to 100% offspring with tubular flowers? JG |
Hi JG, I am still optimistic that the tubulars will "pay off" in some future recombinations. So I will continue to grow them and cross them with other zinnias. But, in the meantime, I will pursue other avenues as well. I just planted a bunch of "toothy" seed for a fall crop of zinnias. |
JG, I really like the first and second zinnias that you posted recently. Any chance you could link to a higher resolution picture of the first one? It's so pretty. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Jul 20, 12 at 8:18
ZM, Your tubular zinnias have come to a new level! The flowers on the one plant that you have shown last are so full! I think you are well along in controlling the breeding process. Since you are interested in white zinnias, it might be interesting to see how white tubular zinnias would look...also, some modified whirligig colors might look great on them! --like, white with yellow centers.... Very interesting that the triple stigmas are happening along with the tubular petals....if I ever see any tubular flowers here again, I will have to check that. I am already starting to collect seeds...the goldfinches pretty much clue me in as to when they are ready! I may not get so many seeds this year as I lost whole patches of zinnias due to the drought. Below is a picture of my largest zinnia patch this year...this time, it is about 40 by 25 feet, with rows about 20 inches apart, and seeds planted closely together in the rows. Below are some of the flowers I am seeing. The last is an Extreme Roll offspring that seems to be only expressing the rolled trait in its newer petals. TC, which date of photos are you referring to? Not sure I can provide higher resolution photos.... JG |
ZM I'd LOVE some of Those Tubey's.... How Tall And How Wide are They also Do You Think They'd Do OK in Pots???? Sorry Loads of Questions... Bit Hyper... LOL |
Hi JG, "Since you are interested in white zinnias, it might be interesting to see how white tubular zinnias would look...also, some modified whirligig colors might look great on them! --like, white with yellow centers..." Yes, I would very much like to see the tubulars in white. So far that hasn't happened, but I plan to cross them with all colors of zinnias and grow recombinants from those crosses. I hope eventually to have them in an all-color strain. And I hope to have a much improved version of their petal form. "I am already starting to collect seeds...the goldfinches pretty much clue me in as to when they are ready!" Me too. I have seen a few goldfinches and other seed-eating birds in my zinnias. I need to collect seeds and deploy a few "hairnets". "TC, which date of photos are you referring to? Not sure I can provide higher resolution photos.... " I think this is the zinnia that TC was referring to. If you don't mind, I think I could upsample it and display it in a larger size. But I won't do that without your permission. That first picture just after the picture of your zinnia patch has an informal flower form that I refer to as "aster flowered", because it has long, loosely placed petals. I like an open flowerform like that, because it lets you see the coloration of the entire petal, which is especially beneficial for bi-color and tricolor petals. In that flower, the petals are yellow orange based tangerine, or approximately that. I am not too good at descriptive color names. I would definitely save seeds from that one. All of your pictured zinnias look really good. ZM |
Hi NC, "How Tall And How Wide are They..." They are intermediate in height, ranging from about 15 inches to 2 feet tall, and about that wide as well. Many zinnia plants are larger than they are. Their plants are rather similar to Whirligig plants. I imagine they will become more diversified as I out-cross them with more zinnia types. "Do You Think They'd Do OK in Pots????" That I don't know. I have grown a few of them indoors in pots, simply because indoor growing is pretty much limited to pots or hydroponics, and I am not set up for hydroponics. A zinnia's root system is roughly the same size as its above-ground plant, so they would need rather large pots. And zinnias like a lot of sun. I think that for pots, the lower growing strains, like Dreamland and Magellan would do better. I grow zinnias as house plants under fluorescent lights during the Winter, but it is not easy to do. Zinnias require more care than most house plants. I am not close to being ready to release seeds. Eventually I will probably have enough seeds to distribute, but for the time being I need more seeds than I have for my ongoing breeding hobby. ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Jul 20, 12 at 13:49
TC and ZM, Here is the larger picture: JG |
I think the larger picture looks a lot better. ZM |
OK. Good. It still works for me after I submitted it. ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sat, Jul 21, 12 at 22:02
ZM, Using Internet Explorer, the photo will enlarge. So, how do you get that to happen? The photo of the yellow and pink zinnia was originally 5184 x 3456 pixels, then when cropped for this thread, was 1473 x 1363 pixels, prior to posting. JG |
Hi JG, "The photo of the yellow and pink zinnia was originally 5184 x 3456 pixels, then when cropped for this thread, was 1473 x 1363 pixels, prior to posting." I suspected that a lot of pixels were going to waste. It's interesting that when cropped for this thread, it was 1473 x 1363 pixels. Did you downsize it to 1,024 by 948 pixels, or was that done by the forum software? You can see the size of any picture on your screen by right-clicking on it and select View Image Info from the pulldown menu. If you do that on my image above, you will see that its dimensions are 390px x 328px. That is how I got the dimensions of your large image. "Using Internet Explorer, the photo will enlarge. So, how do you get that to happen?" There are no secrets in HTML, because anyone can "look behind the curtain" by right-clicking and selecting View Page Source from the pulldown menu. You could do that and discover that the "secret" to the enlarging picture is to insert an HTML hyperlink to a large image into your Message text. That hyperlink includes a smaller image button. This is an excerpt from my message text that contained the hyperlink: JG, I am curious whether your original picture may have been even larger than that. < a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/MaineMan/Experimental/DSC_0182_DxObig.jpg" >< img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/MaineMan/Experimental/DSC_0182_DxOthumb.jpg" align="left" border="0" >< /a >I have devised a scheme that hopefully will let us show larger pictures, if we want to. I have "disabled" the HTML in that text string by inserting a blank space after each < and before each > to keep them from parsing as HTML. You would remove the blanks to get operational HTML. There are only two images involved: DSC_0182_DxOthumb.jpg is the smaller image that appears in my forum message. The "align" parameter setting causes the small picture to be pushed to the left of the text, and the "border" parameter setting prevents a border from showing around it in some browsers like Internet Explorer (which would indicate that the image is a hyperlink button). I don't like the looks of the blue border, so I disabled it. DSC_0182_DxObig.jpg is a large image that creates the two enlarged views. I downsampled my camera's 6016 x 4000 pixel image to 2,560 x 1,702 pixels to get something that would load in a reasonable amount of time, and still be big enough to overfill most monitors. Photobucket provided the + and - viewing options. Incidentally, this looks a little better in FireFox than in Internet Explorer 8. The only "trick" in all this is that my small image has a 15-pixel white border on its righthand side to give the illusion of a border between it and the text to its right. I will probably use this image presentation method again in the future, but I haven't decided yet how often. I'm waiting for some more feedback on troubles with this in some browsers. It should be OK, because it is standard HTML, but different browsers can implement HTML in different ways. Since, as I suspected, your camera takes some high-pixel images, some of your modest-sized posted images may have come from some rather spectacular original images. We got a taste of that from your response to Telescody's request. On a different note, I planted some Fall crop melons and scabiosa recombinant zinnias today. But we are in the midst of a triple digit heat wave and a worsening drought. ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sun, Jul 22, 12 at 14:58
ZM, Here is a large photo of an orange X-Roll flower. I tried the command that you used on your photo to make it enlargeable, but Flickr won't allow that to happen, apparently. But, you have to realize that I am not at all familiar with html! I always looked for file information under the "Properties" option. The larger amount of info you referred to is not all that usable to someone not savvy with that language. JG |
Hi JG, That is a great picture of a great zinnia! Its X-roll petals are accentuated by the two-tone effect, with orange going into the roll and yellow coming out. Apparently the X-roll effect is multi-gene, since the amount and style of the petal roll seems to occur in different variations. Don't worry about the problem implementing my little-image-big-image scheme in Flickr. I may look into that when I get to a "lull" in my activities. But your presentation of large pictures is working just fine, and getting the job done. I am currently planting my Fall crop of Whirligigs. I am using some old seed, dated 2007, so I will plant with a closer spacing to allow for a lower germination percentage. The "survivors" of this long storage time will have passed a test of sorts. That could be a good thing. I hope to find some specimens with at least some amount of petal up-roll, and inter-cross them to get the beginnings of a strain. More later. ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Tue, Jul 24, 12 at 16:01
ZM, I would think the age of the Whirligig seeds would be far less a problem than the severe heat you are dealing with out there now! How will you keep the seeds moist during germination? Just asking that because I was considering putting in more zinnia seeds but I was afraid they would dry out! I did plant a few sunflowers, by cutting out the bottoms of plastic cups, embedding the cups in the soil, then putting the seeds in them. When I water them, the water is focused on the area around the seed. But I only planted a dozen or so sunflowers! Here again is one of the most extreme of my flowers. JG |
Jackie, this latest one is fascinating. |
JG, That latest one is more than spectacular. I am so glad it got a big picture. I so hope that the X-roll zinnias can be saved as a strain. "How will you keep the seeds moist during germination?" I use a garden hose with a fan spray head to sprinkle the seedbeds gently at least once a day. I don't want to wash them out of their soil cover. I do that for seedbeds even when the heat isn't excessive. Today is another triple digit day in our current heat wave, but there is a possibility of showers tomorrow. It's not really a cool front, it's a not-quite-so-hot front. And we will hopefully be in the mid or upper nineties for the next two or three days. Then back to the triple digit madness. Our lawn is mostly crispy brown. Walking on the grass crunches like walking on corn flakes. But I spend some time each day watering various critical parts of my garden. I hope our well doesn't run dry, but I suppose that is a possibility. It must be quite deep, though, because the water from it runs cold, even in this heat. I water some and then let the well "rest". And then I water some more, and let it rest again. More later. I am so inspired by your Extreme Roll flower form. I am so glad that zinnias can "do that". ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Jul 27, 12 at 9:54
Rhizo, I'm not sure if these kind of zinnias are resulting from a mutation or just an unusual combination of genes, but I've been able to keep them going for three years now....they're definitely hybrids but I haven't figured out what the pattern of inheritance is! And, there are different levels of expression of the trait. ZM, I'll show just a few favorites that come up from year to year: First, the type of flower that has very silky petals that are white on the back..followed by yellow zinnias that have a white center, only visible when they first start to bloom, or later when you pull the petals up.. Then, flowers that are the reverse of each other; one is lighter in the center of the flower, the other, darker in the center. JG |
Hi JG, "I have small beds that haven't come up at all because I was hoping to count on the rain. Maybe I will water those and see if anything comes up! They were a little far from the house to carry water...." If you had a garden hose you wouldn't need to carry the water. When I was a kid I lost a whole marigold garden that I had carefully prepared the seed beds for and then waited for rain to germinate them. Rain didn't come, but winds did, and blew away the fine sandy soil and the marigold seeds, leaving me with nothing. Now I never depend on a rain to germinate my seeds. Incidentally, the Whirligigs that I planted on the 23rd started emerging yesterday. I planted a second bed on the 25th, and another bed yesterday, and they aren't coming up yet. I think the old seed is germinating at about 30 to 40 percent, as compared to the 80 percent of new seed. So I am planting extra thick to compensate. I hope to prepare and plant a fourth bed of Whirligigs today. Those beds are next to each other, and will create a Whirligig garden. Your latest pictures are quite interesting. The white on the backs of the petals is interesting. I have seen it on a very few specimens of mine. I think it would be an interesting strain, and would look especially good on extreme roll zinnias. Those last two pictures of reverse colorations are really nice, and demonstrate the versatility of zinnia colors. That first pink silky zinnia is quite refined. You have many home bred zinnias that aren't available commercially and are worthy of continued propagation. Well, I have some soil preparation and planting to do. More later. ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Tue, Jul 31, 12 at 17:26
ZM, I hope your planting is going well! I planted a few more seeds in my closest garden that I water every 4 or 5 days..will water more where the seeds have gone in. As far as watering my other plots with a hose, I will hold back on that this year--they are several hundred feet from the outdoor faucet. Here are a few current examples of the X-roll flowers. You can see, I hardly have a handle on the breeding, but I do think I have the gene pool for those flowers captured (somewhat!). Many of these flowers are shedding pollen, which is a plus in crossing them--there are a few that don't form pollen at all. JG |
Hi JG, |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Wed, Aug 1, 12 at 20:06
ZM, It sounds like you really have a lot of garden space! My spaces aren't continuous, but there is a plot set up here and there, and spaced fairly far apart. And, then, I have the main plot, where the vast majority of zinnias grow. It sounds like the trumpet gene pool is broadening for you now that you have some coming from non-trumpet flowers. It's acting like a recessive gene, and apparently the parent of that new zinnia was carrying the gene (or genes). I'm still pretty convinced that zinnias can be pollinated by wind. Each pollen grain is microscopic, and when there is wind, I have a feeling that the air in a zinnia patch is full of pollen, blowing away from the flowers that are producing it. I've had isolated plots of Benary zinnias where just a few flowers were producing pollen, and the flowers that only had the rays ended up making a lot of seeds. Insects aren't likely to be attracted to those flowers as they are shedding no pollen. And it seems that the major nectaries are at the base of the disc flowers. When you saw anthers inside the tube petals, did they have the typical appearance of a yellow disc flower? And, when you collect seeds from the trumpet flowers, aren't they usually attached to the base of the petals, or are you only collecting the seeds at the base of the disc flowers? I wonder if those few flowers that are so attractive to the ants also have a fragrance? The orange X-roll flower that I showed earlier here has filled out some, so here is what it looks like now: JG |
***And try not to let any ants get on my nose*** On your nose What About UP Your Nose.... FAB Photos Everyome!!! |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Aug 3, 12 at 19:23
ZM, I don't know if the last zinnia was the most sensational, but it is very interesting...and it's exciting that someone else likes it along with me! I think just as sensational are the tubular zinnias you have now as well as some of the "shaggy dogs" you have shown in the past! And some of the elegant airy zinnias that you have. I've saved seeds from every descendent (that produced seeds) from the original X-roll flower and just keep growing them out. Some are crossed by me; others I just let the bees cross in case there is some inbred type of incompatibility. I always do plant the seeds of X-roll-(phenotype) plants together and they tend to give rise to the greatest concentration of X-roll flowers in the garden. Your tubular ray flowers that are producing seeds seem to me to be similar to the florets of the scabious zinnias, which also do not possess the yellow petal found in the disc flowers, but do have anthers, at least, in some cases, as in below--not the best photo, but... NC, something tells me that if ZM finds a fragrant flower, he will take his chances with the ants, LOL.. JG |
Hi NC, JG is right, if I find a fragrant zinnia, I will take my chances with the ants. Actually, that is a real danger, because those little ants scurry around quite rapidly when it is warm, and it would be quite unpleasant if one or more got up my nose. I have inhaled a gnat on a few occasions, and that results in repeated nose blowing. But as gardeners, sometimes we "boldly go...", as they say on Star Trek. JG, I hope you will continue saving seeds from your X-rolls. Even the ones that aren't quite so "extreme", because that extra-narrow petal form may be somewhat recessive, and could pop up in the progeny of some partially extreme specimens. Your extreme-roll petals have a big advantage over my tubular petals, by presenting the stigmas openly for access to pollination. And I think their structure is probably more flexible, too. The tubes seem to resist bending, which makes them somewhat prone to breaking. Actually, I used tube breaking as means of exposing the stigmas, with some success. But too much surgery on a zinnia flower can have bad effects, and some of the flowers with nearly all of their petals split or otherwise "operated on" withered and died. I'm not sure what the mechanism is, but a lot of wounding of a zinnia bloom can cause it to wither and die. Possibly it's bacterial infection. I should experiment with spraying an antiseptic, like Physan 20, on the petals where petal surgery produces a lot of open wounds. The structure of the tubular petals that do form seeds can have some very narrow tubular petal attachment, as in this sample of recently saved petal seeds from breeder F35, which has a fairly high percentage of viable petal seeds. F35 was a progeny of F5, which was a non-tubular specimen from E2, the original trumpet-petaled specimen. Apparently F5 was a cross between E2 and some selected pollen parent, and the trumpet petal trait was recessive in it, but came out in F35. It is still an open question in my mind how these trumpet petals are able to get pollen onto their rather tightly enclosed stigmas. An anther bundle is small and rather compact, because it can fit within the neck of a disk flower pollen-bearing floret. I still think that some tiny insect vector could carry pollen into the thin tube of a trumpet petal, but that would be a tight fit for many ants. But there are some very small ants. And other small insects, like thrips for example, could be candidate pollen carriers. I hope the tubular petal seeds are produced by anther bundles, because any local tiny insects might not be available elsewhere. I suppose I should do some surgery on some trumpet petals, to see if I can find any anther bundles. I did split a lot of petals on E2 to pollinate their enclosed stigmas, and in the many dozens of petals that I opened, I didn't see any trace of anther bundles. However, I might have missed them, since they would be below the stigma arms, and I usually just split a petal enough to expose the stigma arms and occasionally a short part of the stigma neck. My goal is to breed some tubular petals that are much larger, and potentially with wider diameter tubes. I am also looking for larger florets in scabious types. In the next week or two, I plan to plant a few more zinnias for Fall growing. The middle of August will probably be my cutoff date, unless I am planting specifically to produce cutting material to bring in before a killing frost. ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sun, Aug 5, 12 at 18:13
ZM, It's interesting to look at the features of the trumpet petals. In one way, if those flowers within do not have anthers, then you have a lot of control over how they are bred. But,in another way, it would be nice if they could at least self themselves, so that you could get seeds without having to make crosses. I wonder if they are at all analogous to the scabious florets? You could cross one of the trumpet flowers with a scabious flower with large florets to see what would happen. It will be interesting also to see if the seeds you collected from the trumpet flowers will germinate! If so, you might want to selectively cross those trumpet flowers that have both anthers and stigmas in the tubular petals to get a more fertile strain. We finally got an inch of rain in the last 24 hours---the first measurable amount of rain here since mid-May! Already the grass is beginning to get green! This is the longest drought I have seen. Along with the high temperatures, we have lost a number of trees (in the 5 to 30 year old range) that couldn't survive these conditions. Today I found an odd mutation among my Benary zinnias. I don't know if it will develop further-- right now it looks a bit like a cauliflower! I planted some empty spots in my main garden with seeds, and they have come up in 3 days (they were seeds from my 2009 garden). JG |
Hi JG, I will include a row of trumpet petal seeds, and space them a decent amount apart, like 8 inches. And I will plant at least one row of trumpet floret seeds. Hopefully there will be time to get a seed crop from them before a killing frost. The individual petals on that one remind me of Pitcher Plants. I think I need to do a lot more crossing and growing out with these trumpet petaled zinnias if they are ever going to amount to anything. You are right that the trumpets should be crossed with the scabious ones to get some interaction between their traits. I plan to cross them with pretty much everything, and I am hoping that next year I will get some decent results from them. Maybe each individual petal could look like a little morning glory. I think I would like that. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Wed, Aug 8, 12 at 22:10
ZM, That last zinnia you've shown is so unusual! I look forward to see what your latest plantings show! --especially if you can get those trumpet flower seeds to germinate (the ones that may have been selfed). I'm collecting seeds now,and trying to beat the finches, who are very active in getting a meal from among my flowers. I used to cut the entire flower off and collect the mature seeds, but now I am doing what the finches do--taking the mature seeds from the base of the flower and allowing the newer seeds to develop as the flower reamains in the garden. Also, the pollen, if present, will be around longer for crossing there. The bees are more numerous than ever this year--I think it is because so few flowers are blooming around here with the heat and dryness. Here is one of my zinnias, which has a very deep flower, with lots of petals. I would bet that this flower is a descendent of one of the Queen Lime zinnias. JG |
Hi JG, "I'm collecting seeds now,and trying to beat the finches, who are very active in getting a meal from among my flowers." I am in the same mode that you are. The finches feed every morning and evening. I have too many seedheads to protect all of them with seedhead nets. I have draped some of the net material over a few adjoining breeder zinnias, with some success. I also have left a lot of decoy zinnias whose seeds I am not interested in. If I have time, I will try to devise some kind of scarecrow for finches. "The bees are more numerous than ever this year..." Yes. Same here. And I have seen a new kind of bee, a black bodied bee about the size of a honeybee, gathering zinnia pollen. I sure hope it isn't an African Killer Bee. My son says it is too cold here during the Winter for killer bees, and I think he is right about that. Which leaves the new black bee unidentified. "I look forward to see what your latest plantings show! --especially if you can get those trumpet flower seeds to germinate" I planted a row of petal seeds and a row of floret seeds of F35, which is one of my second generation trumpet-petaled breeders. I was particularly in suspense about the petal seeds, because their stigmas are seemingly inaccessible inside the narrow petal tubes. Several of the petal seedlings were emerging this morning. (One is pictured on the left.) I planted them the 6th, and today is the 9th, so 3-day germination is nicely prompt, but about what you can expect in this warm weather. In the past I have gotten one-day and two-day emergence for zinnia seedlings, so these haven't set any speed record. I still don't know how they do it, but this shows that the tubular petals can have viable seeds without any special attention or surgery. I think that is good news for the tubular zinnias. I think they have proved that they would be able to survive and grow under field-grown conditions. I am no longer worried about that. It remains to use them to produce a decent looking new flower form. That needs a lot of improvement, because the present trumpet-petaled flowers are kind of freaky looking. But I think the potential is there. I really like the zinnia in your last picture. I normally don't like zinnia that have petals piled closely on top of each other, but I like the looks of your nearly spherical zinnia bloom enough to make an exception. I think a lot of people would like a strain of zinnias that had ball-shaped flowers in an assortment of good colors. If it were me, I would save seeds from the zinnia in that last picture based on the spherical shape of the bloom, looking for spherical blooms in the next next generation. I haven't seen any ball-shaped zinnias this year, but I had one a few years ago, and some of its genes are probably still in my gene pool. I will be on the lookout for them next year. I think I will quit planting Fall crop zinnia seeds in the next day or two. There is quite a bit of uncertainty for our first killing frost date, and I don't want to get involved in too much rescue cutting taking. ZM |
- Posted by kimka z6B (email@example.com) on Thu, Aug 9, 12 at 15:49
zenman, I can pretty much guarantee the black bodied bee that you saw was not an Africanized (killer) bee (AHB). To the untrained eye, Africanized honey bees and those that are descended from European bees look exactly alike (No honeybees are native to the New World). You can't even really tell them apart from their behavior because all honey bee behavior runs a continuum from very aggressive (actually defensive because they only sting in quantity when there is a threat to the hive) to docile. It is just that AHB behavior clusters more often at the aggressive end. And your son is right, an AHB swarm that got off a train, truck or ship might last through the summer and fall in Ottawa, but they would not survive the winter. I'll get off that soap box now (part of my day job is to keep the USDA spread of Africanized honey bee map). I really love your pitcher plant petaled (trumpet petal) zinnia. Have you had the form show up in other colors besides the pink? KimKa |
Hi KimKa, And, of course, JG's "extreme rolls" show even more backside. So I am beginning to realize that backside petal color is becoming a much more important trait in zinnias. A few years ago, I saw a purple zinnia with white petal backsides in my garden, and I didn't think much of it, because on it you didn't see the petal backsides. But with the advent of rolled petals, extreme rolled petals, and tubular petals, the backside petal color becomes an important trait in zinnias. I will be watching for it in the future. |
Speaking of bees, I was watering the flowers one morning and noticed this guy just hanging out on the petals. I nudged him with a blade of grass thinking he may have been dead for some reason, but he seemed to just be waiting for it to warm up. I suppose he got in that position trying to get some nectar and ran out of steam. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sat, Aug 11, 12 at 21:38
Hello everyone! ZM, I look forward to seeing the phenotypes of your tubular plants....coming from floret vs. petal seeds! What did F35 look like? I've tried to identify some of the bees visiting my garden. One type of bee was larger than a honeybee, having a black abdomen. He was identified by entomologists as a giant resin bee. You might check some of the Telescody, I've seen bumblebees early in the morning much as you pictured your bee....just hanging onto a flower, looking like they collapsed there the evening before after a hard day's work! I've also seen honeybees like that. JG |
Are they all the same zinnia variety? Well, I think that one in particular is an F2 of two "Purity" flowers mixed together, as I had a few in my garden last year. Funny that you mention "pure" white, since that's the marketed name. Here's a kind of battered looking Purity that isn't fairing too well: Made a kind of neat picture, though. By the way, the bee that was pictured is definitely a carpenter bee. We have honey bees as well, but they're shaped differently. I've only seen a bumble bee a few times before. |
Hi TC, There are Burpeeana Giant and Burpee's Hybrids genes, as well as some Whirligig genes, in the mix that gives rise to the aster flowered variation. |
Hi all, That zinnia has a reasonable amount of toothiness, and I used that single pollen floret to self-pollinate most of the available stigmas on this bloom. I did that by using a special pair of fine point tweezers to extract the anther bundle from the floret and touch the exposed anthers to the stigmas. That is a technique I developed indoors last Winter to make choice pollen go farther. It is enabled by a special pair of tweezers that have curved fine points. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sat, Aug 18, 12 at 21:37
Hello! Just got back to my home and garden after a 10-day trip to Texas...we have had 2 1/5 inches of rain here and what a difference the rain makes! The zinnias are blooming like they never have and look great. If I see anything different in the next few days, I will post it...well, maybe if it isn't different! Telescody, it's good you are collecting seeds from your white flowers. Let us know if you get colors other than white when you grow out the seeds!...I still wonder how much crossing goes on the garden... ZM, your pink aster flowers look great..interesting to hear of the kinds of zinnias that cross to give that sort of bloom. And, I see that your toothy flowers are coming true to form...toothy, tubular flowers could look good...actually fluffy with the ragged edges...hope you can get that to work! JG |
Hi JG, That one has obvious Whirligig influence. I think that at least some of the toothiness came from selected Whirligigs that had some noticeable petal-end toothy effect. Some scabious zinnias also display some toothiness, and it may be a different sort from what the Whirligigs have. It may be that the toothier specimens combine some toothiness from Whirligigs and scabiosa flowered specimens. In any case, it helps to intercross different toothy specimens. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Mon, Aug 20, 12 at 20:01
ZM, I hope that you get rain soon! A day or two with rain and cloudy skies makes a tremendous difference. We have been moved from exceptional to extreme drought here...but the grass is now green, and the ground somewhat damp. Here are some of the flowers I am seeing now: An example of a flower with silky petals with white backing: Many of my flowers show petals that change from yellow or orange to magenta as they mature. Notice that one of these has white-backed petals: I don't have many toothy petaled flowers as you do, but here is one: One of the Extreme Roll descendents has pink-backed petals (I've shown a flower from this plant before): Some flowers here look a little like powder puffs, having no well-defined center: Then, finally, the mutant I showed before, now about 3" wide. It seems to be producing an almost endless number of bracts, and no rays, scales, stamens, or pistils From the side, you can see the large numbers of stems emerging from one area: JG |
JG, I still have a fairly high cull rate in the progeny of this strain, but I am making progress in that direction, in that I am getting a higher percentage of toothy specimens. I will be showing representative pictures as my "Fall planting" yields more examples. I can hardly wait to cross the toothies with the tubulars. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Aug 24, 12 at 23:09
ZM, Your toothy flower looks really good! I hope you will post another picture of it when it fills out. You've got a near-blue flower there, too! I'm also looking to see how your crosses with the tubular flowers go, as well as those which self-pollinated....really interesting! I've had some tubular flowers in the past, but had no luck with the seeds of those germinating as you have. Here are some flowers I have now..nothing terribly different.. two cactus blooms and some variations of Whirligigs: The light pink cactus flower is remarkable in that it is very large--about 6" in diameter. Somehow I never tire of looking at the Whirligigs and all the different kinds of flowers that are produced. I'm glad you mentioned "Witches Broom." I had never heard of that condition in plants, although I was aware that different organisms can reprogram development in them through various means. I am going to let the one plant I have continue in the garden as I want to see how the one other bud it has will appear when it opens. It's more of a curiosity item than anything else! JG |
JG, Some lavender zinnias can look sky blue under shaded light conditions. But exposure to sunlight ends that illusion and the petals become lavender. I think that eventually there will be blue zinnias, but I think they will come from genetic engineering rather than a natural mutation. This photo was also taken today of a just-opening toothy zinnia, that also hints at what a cross between a tubular and a toothy might look like. When I first saw it, I thought it might be a toothy tubular, but on closer examination I realized that, in this juvenile stage, the new petals were in a natural extreme roll configuration. So I guess this also gives a hint at what a cross between extreme-roll and toothy might look like. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Aug 31, 12 at 13:27
Hi JG, Ironically, I think that most, if not all, of my narrow petaled zinnias have also had Whirligig origin. I had one narrow petaled zinnia whose petals curled upward, reminding me a bit of a dandelion. If I get the opportunity, I will select toward a strain with a flowerform that looks something like that. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Mon, Sep 3, 12 at 15:30
ZM, I agree with you that the whirligigs are good sources of unusual traits when breeding zinnias, resulting with ones such as the pretty narrow-petaled flower you have shown. I've seen toothiness, tubular petals, all kinds of unusual color combinations, narrow petals, striped petals and much more in them. I wonder what makes them so much less uniform than some of the other kinds of zinnias? We got 2 1/2 inches of rain here in the last couple of days. I'm glad I staked some of my favorite plants as many are bending over with the water as well as with new growth. I've got a lot of seed collecting to do, and like you, I still have new plants coming up. I'm not sure how far some of these will get, but with a mild fall, there may be new blooms in the first weeks of October. The odd mutant bloom I had with all sepals is still there, along with a new bloom that is just the same . I think this may be a genetic mutation, but a lethal one, as there is no way to reproduce (given vegetative reproduction doesn't happen). Have you ever tried any of the organic sprays to prevent mildew? I am thinking of trying the water-based spray with baking soda, vegetable oil, and dishwashing liquid (1 TB of each to a gallon of water). There is also the recipe of water: skim milk 9:1. Here are a few flowers in the garden today: JG |
Hi JG, |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Thu, Sep 6, 12 at 13:33
ZM, I had also read that whirligigs possibly resulted from crosses betweeen Zinnias haageana and violaceae...it's interesting to see that the Zinnia marylandicas show none of that sort of variation arising from an interspecific cross---possibly because the angustifolias are so uniform themselves. Because I like all the butterflies that visit my garden, as well as the other creatures, I am going to stay away from a systemic mildew inhibitor that may somehow affect them. I agree that I should be careful with the detergent in a spray..I'll look and see what amount will be effective in making at least a good emulsion. This is the earliest I've ever seen the goldfinches leave the area. I am especially surprised they left in view of all the zinnias and sunflowers I now have. Maybe the weather system with the hurricane coming was a factor in them moving on. Anyway, their departure is a benefit to me and my seed-gathering! If I discover some tubular zinnias in my garden, I will try and keep a line going. Then you with your Extreme Rolls and I with my tubular zinnias can in the future compare our mini-parallel evolutions! Here are some zinnias I saw today. The ones with the scabious florets are obviously hybrids, resulting from a scabious-non-scabious cross, but I thought it was interesting that they are forming a shrub-like plant in the garden. I know you've seen similar plants in past years. The others below are cactus hybrids also coming from mixed seeds of last year's garden. JG |
Hi JG, I took that picture with my macro lens. Nikon uses the term "micro" instead of "macro". I think that toothy zinnia must have Whirligig heritage, because of the two-tone petals. I am hoping to get some "extreme toothies" next year. This is a "micro" picture taken with the same lens, only closer. I wonder if those little hairs are single-cell or not. I am still learning to use my entry level Nikon DSLR. It has 208 pages in the User Manual, so I have lots to learn about it yet. |
Hi ZM, Your posts always amaze me. Realize that you probably answered this before, perhaps several times. I want to try zinnias this year; but will focus on only one variety. I am considering: 1. Benary's Giant Dahlia or 2. Super Cactus Giant series or 3. State Fair Any thoughts? These will be grown for cut flowers. I will probably start with 100 seeds and get them down to 4 plants that I will focus on. Thanks for any comments, Bob |
Hi Bob, It's interesting that in Florida you can be contemplating starting a zinnia garden this time of year. My Fall crop of zinnias are growing and some are beginning their first blooms, but it would be too late here in Kansas to plant zinnias now and expect them to have time to develop decently before a Killing Frost. |
Thanks ZM, These will be for next spring. Although as you say I could do a fall planting, I'm sure. Actually I just got my Geoseed Pricelist and they just added "Super Cactus Giants" in their new pricelist. It's interesting about prices of these seeds. Whilygig are 2000 for $3; Super Cactus Giants 1000 for $3.15 and Uproar are 100 for $10.75. The Super Cactus Giants are tetraploids. It's interesting that they just added them this year. Isn't this an old series? Thanks for the response, Bob |
Hi Bob, "The Super Cactus Giants are tetraploids. It's interesting that they just added them this year. Isn't this an old series?" I don't think so. The old tetraploid zinnia strain is State Fair, which Ferry Morse Seed Company released in the 1950s. And it is dahlia flowered. Considerably later Burpee introduced their strain of tetra zinnias, also dahlia flowered. This new item in the GeoSeed catalog is the first cactus flowered tetra zinnia that I have seen. I wonder who developed them. ZM |
I'll ask Geoseed. You really know your Zinnias, ZM. Your answers are always so good and I appreciate them. You are right. I found the older Cactus Giants type on the previous page on the Geoseed pricelist. I will try them. Also when I order I will tell you the seed producer. Thanks again ZM! Bob |
Meant to say that I will try the new Super Cactus Giants. Bob |
Hi Bob, You could also try the State Fair and Burpee's Tetras and make crosses between all three and be "the first kid on your block" to have F1 hybrid tetra zinnias. ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Tue, Sep 11, 12 at 12:27
Hi everyone! I've been trying to get my zinnias back in order after a 3 inch rain that occurred several days back. It's hard to navigate through the garden with 4 and 5 foot plants that are sprawled out everywhere. From earlier here, JG: "It's interesting to see that the Zinnia marylandicas show none of that sort of variation arising from an interspecific cross..." ZM :"Actually, it has to do with chromosome numbers. Z. violacea and Z. haageana have the same chromosome number, 24. So the hybrid between the two also has a chromosome number of 24, and can be fertile. Whereas the hybrid between Z. violacea (24) and Z. angustifolia (22) has an odd chromosome number of 23, and is sterile. So the commercial fertile version has a doubled chromosome number of 46. It is difficult for recombinations to occur in that case." I had forgotten that it is thought that the whirligigs were simply diploids arising from an interspecific cross between two more (relatively) closely related species having identical chromosome numbers, while the marylandicas are allotetraploids arising from an interspecific cross between two more distantly related species...makes sense that recombination between crossed species would be less likely in the marylandicas--- as the chromosomes contributed by each species would be less homologous. Anyway, Bob, and ZM, you are talking about growing and crossing tetraploids. That sounds like an interesting project for you, Bob! It's possible you could get some very interesting variation! When going back to Chapter 12 of "Flower Breeding and Genetics," I saw the write-up on interspecific crosses of tetraploids which kind of piqued my interest, too. There, autotetraploid Zinnia violaceae (4N = 48) were crossed with allotetraploid Zinnia marylandica(4N = 46)and the offspring, although sterile, were said to result in different colors and larger blooms....I've got the Profusions growing now...sure wish I had some tetraploid Zinnia violaceae! JG |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Tue, Sep 11, 12 at 12:32
And in the interspecific cross of zinnia tetraploids mentioned above, the female parents were the marylandicas.. JG |
Hi JG and everyone, I have never gotten a second-stage toothy Whirligig until now. I'll try to get a picture of it. I suspect that bees crossed two first stage toothies in the Whirligig seed production field. This kind of confirms in my mind that Whirligigs are the primary source of toothy zinnias. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Sep 14, 12 at 13:05
ZM, I like your plan of spacing zinnias. I may try the same next year. We usually don't have a rainy August, so in the past I haven't had problems getting through the rows. I've collected seeds from my Profusions several years in a row now, but I don't know if the offspring are the results of hybrization between plants. I've seen no unusual colors thus far! So here, the F1's aren't sterile, at least when selfed.. I think I will try and cross the Profusions with State Fairs next year. I'll grow them up together, and maybe even if I am not successful in crossing them manually, the garden creatures will be. I really like that toothy purple flower. It's so full and also a good color. You are making so much progress in your breeding programs..I know I've said this before, but you are doing a great job.I love looking at the results! I am not going to be online the next few days much as I am undergoing treatment for a detached retina :-(.. but look forward to everyone's posts.. JG |
Hi JG, I hope the detached retina treatment goes well. We will understand you taking it easy for a while, and following the doctor's orders. ZM |
Hi everyone, That is the first time I got a zinnia with that much toothiness right out of a seed packet. That was an old seed packet of Whirligigs that came from Stokes Seeds several years ago. The country of origin was Tanzania and it was packaged in Canada. I also got this "first stage" uprolled specimen. And this next picture is my first "second stage" uprolled specimen. It also came right out of that packet of old Whirligig seeds from Stokes. If I just had a narrow petaled zinnia in bloom now, I would cross them, for an attempt at my own "extreme rolled". For the time being I will have to settle for selfing this one to hopefully get some seeds from it. We got some rain yesterday and last night. And it is pleasantly cooler now. I am doing some of my Fall cleanup tasks. |
- Posted by woodnative 6 (My Page) on Tue, Sep 18, 12 at 8:25
Zenman (and Jackie and the rest). I have always followed these threads with interest though not posted much. Just curious if you have any good Scabiosa types lately? Particularly in a good red?.... |
Hi WN, It has a nine spotted cucumber beetle hiding in it. They are a pest for zinnias. They don't eat a lot, but they will eat small holes in most any part of a zinnia, including leaves and flower petals. The damage they due is mainly cosmetic, but I hand pick them when it is handy. This is a somewhat more true-to-type scabious recombinant, though it is not red. Here a couple of budding scabious flowers, on the same plant. I'm not sure what I would call that color. I took all these pictures this evening, and the light was non too good. Don't hesitate to post. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Sep 21, 12 at 15:40
ZM, Things are good now...the surgery is behind me! Your scabiosa hybrids look good...but just changed enough from the typical scabiosas to make them more interesting. The last ones, in particular, almost look like chrysanthemums! I also liked that macro photo you showed a while back.. Those close-ups are fascinating. In zinnias, the details are really fun to see. One of my X-roll descendents has white-backed flowers, and in the photo below, you can see how white-backed petals add to the interest of a flower. That flower opened up further to make a somewhat loosely rolled appearance. With red and white, the flower could be especially pretty. The orange X-roll continues to flower. One advantage of this particular plant is that the flowers take a long time to fully open, and are also somewhat long-lived. I still have lots of flowers in the garden, and no mildew. But the seeds are not forming so much now...I don't know if the cooler temperatures may be resulting in poor pollen development and setting of seeds...but it always starts happening at this time of the year. JG |
Hi JG, It will unroll to present a rather conventional narrow petaled zinnia. But I remain vigilant for some uprolled specimens that I can use as breeders to inter-cross. I hope to finish the season with the start of a seed stock for a larger growout of extreme roll candidates next Spring. I need to cross toothies with different zinnia colors, to get a complete color range in the toothies through recombinations. And I would like to get some "extreme" toothies. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sat, Sep 22, 12 at 18:41
ZM, Your toothy zinnias are looking good. That last one with the frosted tips is very nice. I can imagine how great a whole range of colors in the toothed zinnias would look...especially with the frosted tips! It seems that many of the whirligigs do start out with the tightly rolled petals...they always catch my eye in the garden. You may be right in that is where that particular extreme trait started. I agree with you in looking forward to next year. I am still saving seeds from my "mixed batch" zinnias, because you just never know what unimaginable trait may show up! Watching those flowers start to bloom at the beginning of each season is something I really anticipate! For the most part, I just let them cross randomly. My main garden this coming year will include the F1s of zinnias whose phenotypes were X-roll this year as well as F2s whose P1 generation were X-roll phenotypes in 2011. I have over a gallon of those seeds so it will be interesting to see what happens. And growing them in close proximity doesn't hurt to bring out the trait from random crosses. I want to try for a line of tubular zinnias, too, so I think planting a patch of Burpeana Giants might be the route to go...I will be planting other cactus types as well, along with the Benarys, whose pure colors I like so much (not only that, but I expect they have been inbred quite a bit, so might lead to expression of some interesting traits). And, although I liked the scabious hybrids I got this year, I am going to plant more of the Candy Mix. Also, will plant the State Fairs and Profusions together as mentioned previously. And, the whirligigs..they are a crazy bunch with lots of surprises! I look forward to seeing your zinnias just as much as my own! It is fun to compare and contrast. I have missed more Shaggy Dogs from you this year, as well as the aster-type flowers you have shown in the past. I have a number of plants flowering for the first time now since the rains started. Below is another X-roll plant. The immature flowers start out a salmon color, then as they become older, they become more pink, almost a fuschia. JG |
Hi JG, I used those special tweezers to help with the embryo extraction. Planting embryos instead of seeds can speed up the emergence of the next generation. Almost all of the zinnia plants that I transplanted into the garden this Spring were actually second generation zinnias and the seeds that I am shucking now are third generation. I will plant a few of them indoors to start my fourth generation this year. As my enthusiasm for zinnia breeding increases, I tend to become a little more "hard core". |
OK I Know this Proberly sounds a bit Thick... But if I bought some Cut Flower Zinnias from a Shop, Would there be any Useable Seed that'll Grow or I am I trying Pee in the Wind Again? |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sun, Sep 23, 12 at 19:26
ZM, Actually, I do have a gallon of seeds from my X-Roll plants. BUT, only about a cup of seeds of that total come from the plants that have shown the X-Roll phenotype this year. The rest of that large amount come from descendents of X-Roll plants that haven't shown the phenotype of their parents. I am keeping the whole lot going from one year to the next, and am doing some backcrossing among the plants. The number of seeds is getting larger and larger but the gene pool is somewhat restricted. I am seeing interesting variations in that population that I don't see from commercially available seeds. Your illustrations of seed and embryo harvesting above are very well-done, and easy to understand. I still think you should write that book! It's pretty obvious that zinnias have a minimum, if any, amount of endosperm, and that the nutrition is stored in the cotyledons of the embryos. Have you run into any contamination when growing the embryos? Just wondering if the loss of the seed coat might have any negative effect.I guess a sterile growing medium is especially important there. I have been spending a lot of time harvesting seeds today. I find that getting seeds from living flowers is much easier than from those that have died and dried up. As you have shown above, you can easily select the more viable seeds when harvesting directly from a mature but living flower. I have real problems telling the good seeds from the bad when looking through dried flowerheads. We are due a frost anytime now (almost got one last night!), so while my flowers are still alive, I am trying to get all the seeds that I can. I cut one flower by mistake today, but I thought it was interesting, because it started out looking like a Benary zinnia, then changed its course and became a cactus. It's looking a little old and tattered and even has a bug. The flower that I especially like and is probably a descendent of 'Big Red,' but is softer and a little bigger..is shown in an aged version taken today, below. This is a favorite of mine, and I should take steps to create a line. So far, I've been lucky the last three years in seeing it pop up in my general population here. Ninecrow, I will answer your question based on my experience.....when you get your cut flowers from the shop, make sure they have fresh water (with one teaspoon lemon juice, 1 teaspoon sugar, several drops of bleach per pint of water)everyday, and also, cut the ends of their stems a little every day, so that each has a clean cut stem. Keep the flowers as long as you can that way, and then remove the seeds attached to the bottom-most petals. I've harvested seeds from flowers I've really liked but also wanted to use in bouquets. Let them dry on a paper towel for a week and then store them cool and dry. (See what ZM says!).. JG |
NC, Actually, I learned the technique of taking green seeds for dried storage from JG. I had been merely taking greenseeds for an immediate germination for a quick next generation. JG informed me that green seeds could be dried and used as any zinnia seed, and I was happy to use that technique to avoid consumption by seed-eating birds and water damage causing premature in-head germination. I still use the old fashioned way of letting the seedheads get brown and dry before harvesting them, but merely because I frequently get overtaken by events in my multitasking garden activities. I think JG has a lot more experience with cut flowers than I do. Instead of bleach as a sterilizer I use Physan 20, which I have handy for my indoor gardening activities. I would add that it is OK to have a leaf or leaves on the stem as long as they are not submerged in the vase water. If they are submerged, they will promptly drown, die, and rot. And smell bad. Of course, when you buy cut flowers from a shop, you have no way of knowing in advance whether or not any of the petals have fertilized seeds attached to them. But when you pull out a few lower petals as JG suggests, you can look at the attached seeds and determine whether they are "empty" or not. Refer to my Embryo Extraction pictures above to get some idea of how to tell if a green seed is empty. I wouldn't buy zinnias from a florist as a way to obtain seeds, but if it happens that you have some zinnias from a shop, it certainly can't hurt to try to get viable seeds from them, using the process that JG described. And the same applies to any zinnia cutflowers that you take from your own garden. Enjoying your zinnias in a vase and then saving seeds from them is a way to double your fun. ZM |
JG, Now I need to get more uproll and more toothiness. Incidentally, have you experienced an increase in Nine Spotted Cucumber Beetles on your zinnias? I have. I suspect that the maturing of some of my melon vines may have had something to do with that. More later. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Sep 28, 12 at 9:03
ZM, I like your toothy line of flowers. The last one has such a pretty shade of lavender. I noticed at the beginning of this thread that you had, at least in the patch you showed, a predominance of pastel colors, and I see a lot of that influence in many of your flowers. Most of my flowers are shades of orange, red, and purple. I think I will bring in lighter colors...through acquiring seeds from lines like the Burpeana Giants and Candy Mix, and then specifically getting seeds for yellow and cream-colored flowers. I don't have a whole lot of them now, but here is one of the few I do have in bloom currently: The last few days have been full ones for me with garden club conferences and meetings. I entered my orange X-roll in the zinnia class of a flower show, and I was happy to see it get the blue ribbon. It's so strange, I wasn't sure what the judges would make of it! JG |
Hi JG, I mainly cross scabious specimens with other scabious specimens, but they still have a fairly high percentage of culls. I also cross toothies with other toothies. Next year, when I have a lot more specimens to work with, I will branch out and make a lot of crosses between types. I spent a couple of hours today culling my Whirligig patch. More later. I hope it doesn't take too long to get my computer back online. I don't know how people get used to these flat keyboards. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sun, Sep 30, 12 at 11:02
ZM, I like the echinacea-type floral form in your flower. I have let my scabious flowers cross on their own, and I still get a lot of scabious characteristics in the plants coming from the seeds. Here is an example blooming now: And another: I have many plants blooming for the first time since the rains began here in August/September. And a red cactus: I know how you feel when adapting to a flat keyboard. I have had an iPad for about a year now, and I think it is the best gadget ever...but I really hate trying to use its keyboard! JG |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sun, Sep 30, 12 at 12:47
ZM, About creatures in the garden--there have been virtually no Japanese beetles here this summer, thanks to the drought. Insects have been few and far between. The only bugs I see in the zinnias now are stink bugs. Usually when I harvest the seeds, the flowers are full of all kinds of spiders, but not this year! There aren't too many butterflies either, although a wave of Monarchs passed by this past week, and I was able to tag 20. There are a number of Painted Ladies and some Cabbage whites, Red Admirals, and Mourning Cloaks, too. JG |
Hi JG, Your white centered one could be just environmental. I have had similar ones that became more normal with age and sun exposure. If that is a genetic trait, it would be worth saving separate seeds from. I have a few scabious specimens open now that I consider to be breeders. I will post more pictures after I figure out how to get them into this laptop to process them. Some of those scabious florets can contain useable pollen. I was using some of that "concealed" pollen today. |
JG, We have a possible freeze forecasted for this coming Sunday morning. That could spell the end of my outdoor zinnia activities for the season. More later. ZM |
What a wonderful thread---I have just gone through the last four of them, and I have a few questions; forgive me if they are covered in the 15 or so archived threads I haven't gotten to yet: 1)Saving Seeds 101. I've looked at some of the excellent photos by ZM and I'm not sure I'm saving the right stuff. It looks like you're only supposed to save the dark-colored seeds at the base of the petals, but I also save what's underneath the cones. This leads to a lot of "chaff", and I usually just pick the seeds out by hand. This is great for 10-20 plants, but would be time consuming to ferret out 100 or so. Is there an easy, home-made tool to sift the seeds from chaff, or am I picking the wrong stuff off the head to begin with? I'll attach a photo below of what I'm ending up with. 2) Is it possible to get a head start on the growing season by greenhouse planting embryos in dirt in March? Or is it best to wait until May or so to plant the full seed? I primarily grow ZYF's and Zahara Starlight Rose because I need hardy and long-lasting flowers that will last long in our desert-like summer heat (95-107 degrees) and attract bees for pollination of my veggie garden. People have gone absolutely gaga over the ZYF's I've grown this year (they blow off the ZSR's as glorified Shasta Daisies) and I am thinking of growing them to sell commercially next year. I was reading a KS State U. Extension pamphlet (link attached) and in it it states: "It is important to note that a plant being grown for a Is this true/does anyone have experience with this? I have the perfect soil blend right now (horse manure/straw/dirt/compost)and feel that adding nitrogen for longer stems will just result in fluffy plants and no flowers. I ask because I have little to no flower/seed saving experience, since I primarily grow veggies. I had to use the zinnia for bees because we can't have the local apiary put a beehive in our pasture out of fear they might bother the horses. For what it's worth, the goldfinches don't go anywhere NEAR my zinnias/seeds, even the ones smack in the middle of the veggie rows, because they love to eat the cucumber beetles on the corn a whole lot better. They like to pick them off the Swiss Chard as well. And they are not even remotely afraid of our two cats. Thanks in advance for your replies. --H |
Here is a link that might be useful: KS St U Pamphlet
Oops, sorry, I forgot one more question: Attached is a photo of a Candy Cane zinnia that is one plant. Is it normal for these zinnias to produce Solid and Candy Cane on the same plant? It has done this multiple times. It was a surprise to me, as it was a package of supposed Whirligigs from Territorial Seed, but they must have put the wrong seed in the packet because I ended up with ZERO Whirligigs and all Candy Canes, which I don't like the looks of. This magenta specimen is the ONLY one I like, and I'm interested in saving the seed. I just don't know if it's going to produce a solid or a CCane, or a mix of both next year. Will the seed from the solid produce a solid, and the CCane a CCane? I just don't understand plant genetics very well. Thanks, H. |
Hi H, "Is there an easy, home-made tool to sift the seeds from chaff...?" I experimented with a small electric fan, slowly dribbling the chaff/seed mix in front of the fan, and the heavier seed would fall through the air stream fairly well and the chaff would be blown away. Do this experiment outdoors, because the chaff gets blown all over. I abandoned that approach as more trouble than it was worth. And now that I am working with high value multi-hybrid zinnia seed from unique plants, I wouldn't think of risking them to any mechanical separator. "...or am I picking the wrong stuff off the head to begin with?" For brown heads, you are picking the right stuff. If you use JG's technique of picking green seeds, you just pull out the lower petals one by one and keep only the ones with a fat seed attached. I save brown heads in plastic grocery bags that I label with a Sharpie pen (because they write easily on plastic grocery bags.) Then sometime later, perhaps weeks or months later, when it is raining or snowing and I can't work outside, I shuck out the seeds. I package the seeds in Snack sized Ziplock bags with a 3x5 card inside with information about those particular seeds. I package green seeds the same way, but I let them air dry for a week or so before packaging them. "I usually just pick the seeds out by hand. This is great for 10-20 plants, but would be time consuming to ferret out 100 or so." With a little practice you can pick out 100 seeds in 10 to 15 minutes. Put a white sheet of typing paper under a desk light to act as a sorting platform. Place a "pinch" from the seedhead on the paper, spread it out with your finger, pick out the good looking seeds and drop them in an empty coffee cup, pick up the paper and dump the chaff in a waste basket, return the paper under the lamp for another pinch of seeds to sort. With a little practice you will enjoy this "hands on" method. As JG has mentioned, it is easier to identify the "good" green seeds, but you will learn to gently pinch the brown seeds to verify that they aren't empty. Is it possible to get a head start on the growing season by greenhouse planting embryos in dirt in March?" I use a sterile soil-less seed starting and growing medium. But, sure, you can get a very early start using a greenhouse. I don't have a greenhouse, but I started my first generation of zinnias indoors under fluorescent lights in January. Green seeds and embryos from crosses between them were also planted as a second generation indoors in late March and early April and set out in the garden in May. My Fall crop, that is in jeopardy from an early frost, are third generation zinnias for this year. "This magenta specimen is the ONLY one I like, and I'm interested in saving the seed. I just don't know if it's going to produce a solid or a CCane, or a mix of both next year." They will probably look like the magenta bloom from the magenta bloom, but zinnias, like the weather, are full of surprises. Incidentally, I think horse manure contains quite a bit of nitrogen. ZM |
ZM, The 16 Super Castus seedlings I recently transplanted have their 2nd true leaves. I translated when the first true leaves began to show. (The seeds were planted Sept 18th.) Prior to transplanting, I blended a very good commerical garden soil with decomposed elephant/rhino manure (from the zoo) and added 10-10-10 and ironite. I mixed the mixture lightly into the top on the garden soil. Usually I do things different but the season in rapidly coming to an end. Question: If you transplant, how and when do you fertilize after transplanting? |
Hi Bob, "If you transplant, how and when do you fertilize after transplanting?" As soon as I place the rootball from the pot into the garden soil, I water it in with a dilute solution of soluble nutrients. I use something like Miracle-Gro Tomato Food, one tablespoon in a gallon of water. Actually, I am re-potting from a pot into the garden soil, rather than transplanting. I just drop the rootball intact into my hand and place it in a suitable hole and firm the garden soil around it. Since the rootball remains intact, the roots are not disturbed. The liquid nutrients insure that the exposed roots are not damaged and are stimulated to grow out into the garden soil. Keep us informed about the progress of your tetraploid zinnias. If convenient for you, pictures would be welcome. I will be interested in how big your tetra cactus zinnias get. ZM |
Thanks ZM, If I make it to the flower phase before freezing, I will definitely post pictures. I would very much like to attempt to get crosses as well. I could be wrong on this but it looks like the developer created several "stand alone" stable varieties and included them in the mix. So crossing might produce some interesting results. Bob |
Hi Bob, "I could be wrong on this but it looks like the developer created several "stand alone" stable varieties and included them in the mix." You are not wrong. The developer offered seven separate colors in Europe, so what GeoSeed is offering is what they call a "formula mix", which is a mixture of the seven separate colors of seeds. Many gardeners consider a formula mix to be preferable to a field-grown mix, because bees make random crosses in a field mix, which creates a whole spectrum of different intermediate shades. If the frost doesn't prevent you, you will have the opportunity to make hybrids between your different tetra colors. You could get some interesting results. ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Thu, Oct 4, 12 at 10:21
Hello all! With respect to gathering seeds from my "special" plants, I always try to collect only the mature seeds that form following successful pollination. But I have a general zinnia garden that I am a little less careful with. The seeds are collected quickly, and any chaff or immature/undeveloped seeds that are included in that collection really don't hurt any. I can sow the seeds heavily in the spring and the chaff and undeveloped seeds act as spacers between the good seeds that will germinate. We may very well have a frost this coming week--I see the lows that are predicted are in the mid-30s. I am going to try and keep a few plants going by covering them with sheets...hopefully the frost won't damage them. I am still hoping to gather more seeds! I agree that the white-centered flower I saw may be a I have already ordered a number of seeds, too. I don't really see anything too new on the market--did get seeds for the large yellow zinnia 'Sungold Hybrid,' an All-America selection. I think I have had that one before. It will serve to give me more yellows in the garden.Also got the State Fairs and Profusions and Zaharas which will go into a somewhat isolated plot...to see if I can get any crosses there. ZM, it will be interesting to see if you find any significant differences between the tubular flowers arising from the petal and floret seeds. The pollination mystery remains a mystery (I still believe pollination by air can happen, though!). I see some black spot on my zinnias, but the leaves are also gaining a lot of dark pigmentation on their own. We have had a lot of rain, and it is like a second spring here. Many of the zinnia leaves have holes in them and I have discovered that is the result of slugs! The hostas here have been decimated. JG |
Hi JG, The camera is facing East. The three rows to the left are scabious recombinants. Some of them are pretty good. This one has petaloids instead of florets. I think the petaloids have accessible stigmas, although with the impending frost, I probably won't be able to verify that those stigmas are functional. I intend to dissect a lot more tubular petals in search of anther bundles. More later. |
I just wanted to pipe in and say that each of you is doing some amazing work/play and producing some incredible flower forms.They may not meet some peoples aesthetic standards, but I love them. If you ever need help growing out a certain population to check for stabilization or whatever, let me know. I'm sure there are others who would love to help as well. Martha |
Hi Martha, As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and different people have different esthetic preferences. I do enjoy growing zinnias you couldn't get in a commercial seed packet. |
Great topic , lots of good information , and since im still learning i find it vbery useful. I have 2 questions tough , first i want to know if i can still transplant the zinnia in the picture , as you can see shes already starting to form her first bud. Second is about full sun , as i live near the equator line (cape verde islands) they are taking only 4 hours of sun , because the uv here is high all year, and is also summer all the time. The climate here is hot and dry. Should i give them more sun regardless? The zinnia in the picture was sowed in September 4. |
Hi Neoalx, You can transplant a zinnia in bud, but try not to disturb its roots. I make a distinction between transplanting and re-potting. To me, transplanting means digging up a zinnia from its location in the garden and re-planting it at a different location. It is very difficult to dig up a zinnia without disturbing and damaging its root system. So I transplant a zinnia only in very unusual circumstances. On the other hand, I repot zinnias frequently, from a smaller pot to a larger pot to accommodate an expanding root system. With a little care, you can repot a zinnia with minimal or no disturbance to its root system. By tapping or flexing the pot a little, you can cause the root ball to fall out into your hand, causing no disturbance to its roots. "Should I give them more sun regardless?" Zinnias are a Full Sun plant, and Full Sun is usually defined as 6 or more hours of direct sun each day. I would try giving them more sun -- just be sure they have enough water and nutrients. I have no direct knowledge of growing zinnias at the Equator, so keep us informed about your experiences with zinnias. ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sun, Oct 7, 12 at 10:57
ZM, Your last two scabious hybrids were nice! I especially liked the yellow one with red and burgundy trim! The color combination was great! I guess there was some whirligig influence...don't know if scabious zinnias show those color combinations! Those observations you are making with the tubular zinnias are fascinating. Have you been keeping track of how the offspring resemble the parent(s)? The plants coming from tubular florets are tubular....do they resemble the female parent in other ways? There is a way of reproduction (APOMIXIS) that happens in a number of the members of the aster family, where the egg cell in the female flower doesn't undergo meiosis, and so can give rise to a seed containing a diploid embryo without fertilization by the male cell in pollen. This happens in dandelions. Zinnias are also a member of the aster family, but I don't know if zinnias have been shown to do this! Circumstantial evidence would be that the seed coming from a tubular flower would give rise to a plant exactly like the female parent. If apomixis happened in all of the flowers of a plant, than all of the offspring plants should be the same as each other and the female parent (essentially, clones). It may be that through your continous selection, you have actually allowed a relatively rare event to become common in these plants. And they are allowed to produce seeds without access to pollen (a survival tactic).....just pure conjecture here....;-).. Our season is all topsy-turvy here. The plants are behaving like it is spring, but frost is due anytime now. JR |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sun, Oct 7, 12 at 11:13
Hi Martha, It is fun to find unusual forms in zinnias. I think I am just as excited by a somewhat goofy, but different flower that I find in my garden as by a hybrid that is really pretty and developed by a seed company. I think the versatility that you can get in zinnias is almost unlimited! The only problem is that a lot of the versatility is seen in hybrids that may be difficult to reproduce (I speak for myself here!). Are you growing zinnias, too? JG |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Sun, Oct 7, 12 at 11:20
Hi Neoalx, I envy your access to a climate where the growing season is year-round! Your zinnia garden could exist in all seasons if you are not at a higher altitude where temperatures could get cooler! I just wanted to make a comment about zinnias growing near the equator. I do have one species of zinnia that is growing in my garden that is native to Peru, near the equator, and also does quite well here in Indiana in the summer. JG |
Hi ZM, Assuming you wanted to maximize the number of generations in one season, what do you feel is the number of generations you could get in your growing season? How long is your growing season, so I can extrapolate? Thanks, Bob |
Hi Bob, I could probably get 5 generations per year, possibly 6 if I was just trying to maximize that. But just working at a comfortable pace, two generations outside and two generations inside. I usually start some zinnias early inside under fluorescent lights, and set them into the ground when it is safe. This year they were third generation for this year, because I started my first generation early in January, planted embryos from them to start a second generation in March, and planted embryos from them to start third generation seedlings to set in ground in May. Some of my zinnias bloom in 5 weeks from the seed sowing date, but 6 weeks is a more typical figure. It usually takes a week or so to get a zinnia reasonably pollinated, and 2 or 3 weeks for green seeds with viable embryos to form. For the fastest turnaround, you can remove those embryos and plant them instead of seeds. They will emerge in 2 to 4 days and the next generation has begun. It is easy to grow zinnias outdoors in the ground, but relatively difficult to grow zinnias indoors in pots under lights. So for most people, two generations outside per year is a more attainable goal. "How long is your growing season...?" Normally I can set zinnias inground the first of May and grow a Fall garden as late as the end of October. However, we had a record setting killing frost last night, so I lost nearly a month off of my growing season this year. I did rescue a few breeder zinnias by bringing in cuttings before the freeze. So now I am in the indoor phase nearly a month early. Oh well...let the games begin. ZM |
ZM, Thanks! That was extremely helpful. I really appreciate the detail. That helps me with the Sept 18 planting I did, as well. Hopefully I will get some crosses to try from that recent planting for use in the spring. Sorry to hear about the early freeze. I saw it on national news tonight. Bob |
Hello, JG I grow zinnias as a nectar source for butterflies and other beneficial insects in my garden. They also end up being the longest blooming and brightest colored plants. This year, I moved to a new house, so I'm having to re-establish all my butterfly perennials. So, I filled in the spaces with a veritable ocean of Purple Prince and Uproar Rose Zinnias with some smaller varieties at their feet. Even with our horrible drought, I had the prettiest garden of my lifetime. So, I think I will be growing more Zinnias each year. I was curious about one of the posts earlier in this thread that described a flower that was an ant magnet. I was wondering if for some reason that flower contained more nectar, or had a more fragrant nectar to the insects. For all of my butterfly gardening friends, that would be a fantastic trait to encourage. We've already recognized that the butterflies prefer the blossoms that have a "center" or flat top for landing and open access to the reproductive organs. If any of you want to try to create a "butterfly friendly" zinnia, we'd love it. I would try, but that would require hours spent in observation to see which flowers were preferred, and I just don't get to spend that much time in the garden. Anyway, nice to chat with you all. I'll keep checking in to see what you're up to. Martha |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Tue, Oct 9, 12 at 8:45
Hi Martha, I have a dedicated perennial butterfly garden, too, with plants like liatris, cupplant, butterfly bush, turtlehead, New England aster, and many more...along with many of the plants and trees that support their larvae. But I find that the zinnia gardens I have probably attract the butterflies more than any other places I have here, mainly for the nectar! ZM on this thread has noticed that ants like particular zinnias. I don't know if he has observed if there is a class of zinnias that is more effective. I've not seen ants on my zinnias (as in the the way that ants love peony buds). But I have noticed that the butterflies go for then taller zinnias, and those that have lots of disc florets. Those are the tiny yellow flowers that appear in the center of the (composite) zinnia flowers. They are the source of the pollen and also have the nectaries at their bases. You will see bees, butterflies, moths, and hummingbirds go to these tiny flowers for the nectar. Many seed catalogs list a "giant, or large, dahlia-flowered" mix of zinnia seeds. These will grow into plants that have flowers with many disc florets that the butterflies really like! Also some of the cactus zinnia mixes are good. Below are a close-up of the disc florets and then a spicebush swallowtail sipping nectar, both from zinnias here in my garden. JG |
Hi Martha, The ants on my "ant zinnia", which was code-named "E3", seemed to be working throughout the head of the zinnia, finding what they were there for at the base of the petals. That zinnia was very double. The zinnia didn't have a lot of pollen florets, and didn't seem to have any special attraction for butterflies. I wondered if the ants might bother the butterflies, but I didn't see that happen. That zinnia was designated as a breeder for its flower size and petal formation, so I will be growing some of its progeny next year, and I will be on the lookout for ants again. It received quite a lot of pollen from my tubular petaled mutant (E2). I haven't decided yet if ant attraction is a good thing or a bad thing. The ants were a kind of annoyance because they tended to get on my hand while I was pollinating the zinnia. I tolerated them because they didn't seem to be aphid-herding ants, and none of them stung me. ZM |
Hi JG, I will dissect those tubular petals in search of the elusive anther bundles. I have dissected a dozen or more petals from the petal seed progeny, so far with no trace of an anther bundle. More later. |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Wed, Oct 10, 12 at 9:17
ZM, We also got the hard freeze you got. I am going to immensely miss the time I spent everyday in the zinnia gardens...something I looked forward to each day. I am very glad I made the large collections of seeds that I did...I can look those over and think about next summer's garden. I also have a nice bouquet in here of assorted zinnias that may last us a week or so. I'm glad you got all those flowers gathered before the frost. You really have a good start on starting the tubular line! It does look like you have a recessive gene going there. You mentioned looking for anther bundles--are you going to cross those flowers to get seeds as they mature under lights-- if you find the anthers? Or let them mature to see what happens even if you don't find the anthers? I mentioned apomixis because it would be very exciting if you could show that was what was happening with your zinnias. I don't know if that has been documented in zinnias or not. Again, I can't help but wonder how my patches of Benary zinnias have produced so many seeds with no or little apparent sources of pollen nearby. I always thought it must be wind, because the attraction to those zinnias for bees, etc. with no disc flowers would be pretty low. I never made observations as to how the offspring of each plant looked the next season. I guess you will be maintaining cuttings of your tubular flowers through the winter. We will look forward to seeing your results. On the side, did you get a good yield of melons this year? JG |
As long as you guys don't mind, I'll keep coming here for all my Zinnia questions. I grew Zahara Starlight Rose this summer, which are a very short, primarily white blossom with a triangle of rose coloring at the center of each petal. The rose portion on each petal creates a star-shaped design in the center of each bloom. Anyway, the photos in the seed catalogues show the star part of the bloom much larger than the stars that appeared in my garden. Of course I understand that there are always variations in the appearance of various blooms. But, I'm wondering whether there is any way to maximize my chances of getting as much color as possible by providing special fertilizers or changing the amount of sunshine or water, etc. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance. Martha |
Hi JG, " Again, I can't help but wonder how my patches of Benary zinnias have produced so many seeds with no or little apparent sources of pollen nearby. I always thought it must be wind, because the attraction to those zinnias for bees, etc. with no disc flowers would be pretty low." We have a similar mystery -- me with my viable tubular petal seeds and you with your high seed yields on flower heads that produced very little, if any, pollen. When you first mentioned wind-borne zinnia pollination, my first thoughts were that zinnia pollen grains are much too large and heavy to qualify as wind-borne pollen. True wind-borne pollen can travel for long distances: hundreds of feet, miles, or many miles. But our zinnia garden situations don't require nearly that much range. In your case, a matter of feet, and in my case, a matter of inches or even small fractions of an inch. At this point, I am not ruling out "airborne pollination" of zinnias. This summer, when I had many hundreds of zinnia blooms open at the same time, there was a free-for-all competition for pollen and nectar among several species of butterflies and bees. I noticed that frequently a bee would land on a zinnia bloom that was presenting no pollen, briefly look for some, and then fly to another zinnia. Apparently bees can't or don't see whether a zinnia has available pollen before they land on it. A zinnia bloom that has no pollen florets can still get many momentary visits from many bees. That could explain your fertilized Benary's Giants. It might even explain my fertilized tubular petals. More later. I love a mystery, and this one make take some time to solve. ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Thu, Oct 11, 12 at 10:27
ZM, I can think of one way to solve the mystery, and that is, to enclose a flower bud from the time it is totally closed to full maturity, so that there is no possibility of its contact with insects or pollen. The cover could be something transparent so that you could watch the flower grow. Hopefully, this set-up wouldn't impede the flower's development other than, possibly, seed-set. Wish my garden were still in bloom, and I would try it now! There is a lot of clean-up to do now....I need to mow my zinnias, then if the gardens are dry, run the tiller through them once or twice. There is also a lot of weeding to do in the perennial beds. I think there may be as much work in the garden after the growing season as during! I am packaging my seeds now, and also, trying to get the garden tools cleaned up, pots put away, etc. Martha, there's no doubt that environment can influence the way that zinnias bloom. For me, this is most apparent when the weather starts to get colder in the fall. Often colors will be more intense, or there will be more contrast in patterns. Also, some double zinnias will become single under crowded conditions. Some striped zinnias may become solid, or v.v., and that may be the influence of unstable genes associated with pigmentation, viruses, or environment. But I suspect that the Starlight you have has a small star because you have seeds of a particular line of plants. You could collect seeds of the flowers with the biggest stars and selectively breed a line for yourself over successive seasons. Or, you might call the company where you bought the seeds, and the horticulturist there might give you an explanation.....let's see what ZM thinks here! |
Hi Martha, " But, I'm wondering whether there is any way to maximize my chances of getting as much color as possible by providing special fertilizers or changing the amount of sunshine or water, etc." I have never grown Zahara zinnias, but people in this New for 2010 message thread report that high temperatures cause Zahara Starlight Rose to be bleached out and the good rose color centers show up below 90 degrees F. So instead of special fertilizers, you need to bribe your weatherman to give you some cooler temperatures. Incidentally, I agree with JG that cooler temperatures bring out brighter colors in zinnias in general. ZM |
- Posted by jackier_gardener 5 (My Page) on Fri, Oct 12, 12 at 19:06
ZM, All my zinnias still stand in the gardens, frost-bitten. Have you ever collected seeds from zinnias that have been frozen, and gotten good germination with those? Some of my flowers are bearing plenty of seeds, but they are wet and cold--just wondering if there is any viability. If they were dry, I would be hopeful(dry seeds at low temperatures do OK), but have never planted those that remain both wet and have gone through a frost. JG |
Hi JG, "Have you ever collected seeds from zinnias that have been frozen, and gotten good germination with those? Some of my flowers are bearing plenty of seeds, but they are wet and cold--just wondering if there is any viability." I have not done that, so I can't say anything on the subject that is based on experience. But I have a similar situation. Lots of interesting zinnias that are still standing after three successive killing freezes in the twenties. I, too, am interested in recovering any possible seeds from these very dead zinnias. I pulled all of my dead Whirligigs and discarded them in the trash. That garden looks almost ready for a Spring planting. I had already saved seeds and taken cuttings from the few breeder quality specimens. I noticed that their root systems were still alive. At some time in a future year I would probably tissue culture the roots of such "dead" zinnias. But I have yet to develop tissue culture proficiency with zinnias. That is something to work on this Winter. In my other zinnia garden, I plan to gather some of the more mature soggy dead blooms and pull out the seeds to see if any seem to contain "fat" embryos. Those seeds could be spread out on a newspaper and air dried for possible future use. But first I will remove some embryos, if any seem viable, from some of those frozen blooms and try to germinate them now. If the embryos germinate, they will become part of my indoor generation 4 for this year, and that would suggest that the dried versions might be good to plant next year. If the "frozen" embryos don't germinate, I won't waste time drying frozen green seeds. If they do germinate, then drying the frozen green seeds could be worthwhile. "... but have never planted those that remain both wet and have gone through a frost." Me either. This could be a good thing, with an opportunity to try some zinnia experiments that we haven't done before. ZM |
Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum. If you are a member, please log in. If you aren't yet a member, join now!
Return to the Annuals Forum
Information about Posting
- You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
- Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
- Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
- After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
- Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
- We have a strict no-advertising policy!
- If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
- If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.
Learn more about in-text links on this page here