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Let me start by saying that I have no connection to this company other than the purchase of their product. One time.
Sea Agri sells sea salt and they say that it will do wonders for the garden. I did purchase this product and used it last growing season. I was not willing to use it at the recommended rate. I used it a half rate. My garden did very well but it could have been many other factors. Any advice from you guys would be a big help. I do not know if I should throw it out or use it again. I do not want to mess up the soil. |
Follow-Up Postings:
I had to look the product up because when you said sea salt I immediately thought of the sea salt I use for seasoning food. I couldn't fathom how that would be anything other than toxic to plants in the garden. The product appears to be a mineral formulation intended to ensure sufficient minerals in the soil. I don't really know much about the product other than to the best of my knowledge plants don't require 80+ minerals. Still, there are several 'ocean' products that claim to have all the nutrients plants need plus a lot more that plants do not need, but that some believe will produce a beneficial response. I have a product intended to be used in very small amounts as a foliar spray that I will be trying this year on some test plants. It is also sea based. So, didn't really answer your question, sorry ;-) |
"I do not know if I should throw it out or use it again." I purchased Sea Agri last year while visiting Atlanta from the distributor. I went to his home, met his family, and viewed his garden. I used the product with wonderful results (BIG BRIX!); I am using Sea Agri right now in my planting . As with yourself, I am not connected with this or any other product connected with organic gardening. If you are set on throwing this product away I would be honored if you threw it away into the back of my truck... Blutranes |
- Posted by fertilizersalesman z6 PA (My Page) on Thu, Feb 22, 07 at 17:19
I have read about the sea salt products. The problem I see with them is that although they may have 100 elements or whatever, plants don't need most of them and you are adding a lot of sodium. Plus you buying something that is covering 2/3 of the earth and you could just dip out the ocean. |
Like I said, "right into the back of my truck"... Blutranes |
Here is a link that might be useful: Tsunami Actually Aided Crops
- Posted by fertilizersalesman z6 PA (My Page) on Fri, Feb 23, 07 at 8:36
Just because soil will eventually recover from sea water does not mean you should intentionally do so. http://www.fao.org/ag/tsunami/docs/saltwater-guide.pdf |
- Posted by dchall_san_antonio 8 San Antonio (My Page) on Fri, Feb 23, 07 at 9:05
I know of a rancher in North Texas who swears by sea salt. He buys it by the 50-pound bag. |
"Just because soil will eventually recover from sea water does not mean you should intentionally do so." Agreed; however no one is suggesting everyone run down to the ocean and grab a few buckets of seawater. Sea Agri is created naturally with all the water removed, again naturally. The dosage spoken of, if it is for a foliar spray, is 1 (one) teaspoon to a gallon of water. If used at half the suggested rate (˝ teaspoon per gallon of water) I struggle to see the danger in using such a diluted solution. Not to mention the fact that the author states the results were impressive (save the unknown reason due to other actions taken). I, on the other hand know for a fact the results of using Sea Agri on my plants; there is no question of "could it be something else". If one knows first hand all the particulars, one who is getting their information from something they read may want to take pause and shift into learning mode. Of course, this is IMO only. Nonetheless, the produce remains welcomed in all my plots and beds. The author can still feel free to throw it away into the back of my truck... Blutranes |
Thanks for all of the replies. I have been organic vege gardening on a small scale for 25 years. 30 X 30. This year triple the size garden(moved to new house). This sea salt thing sounded good but was not sure. I have learned more from this forum just lurking around the past few months than in all those years. Thanks. |
- Posted by fertilizersalesman z6 PA (My Page) on Mon, Feb 26, 07 at 12:43
Blutranes, Removing the water does not help. By far the largest components of sea water are sodium and chlorine (table salt). Plants do use very small amounts of chlorine, but the sodium is toxic. It is extremely unlikely that you would ever need to fertilize with chlorine; chlorinated water can be a real problem for sensitive plants. It is possible your crops did receive a benefit from one of the other components like boron or possibly sulfur. However, if you did need one or the other sea water would still be a very poor source because again you are mostly getting sodium. |
Actually, fertilizersalesman, sodium is also a plant nutrient. Not an essential nutrient, but a functional nutrient meaning it has been observed, under controlled conditions, to result in higher plant biomass as well as reducing the amount of essential nutrients required for a plant to complete it's life cycle. Unless the sodium content of seawater is reduced I would imagine it is present in too high an amount and would be toxic, but just thought I would nitpick a bit ;-) A synthetic fertilizer I use for hydroponic growing, DynaGrow, includes as much sodium as it does chlorine. (.1%) |
- Posted by hitexplanter 8 a TX ,USA (email@example.com) on Mon, Feb 26, 07 at 16:14
It sound interesting like seaweed except one step removed. Many people over the years poo-poo seaweed but I have seen first hand how well it works in a variety of gardening situations. This may be a progression of this. I know science has yet to understand most of nature's mysterious ways. SO I will have to try and see for myself how it compares to material I already use and trust. Experiments are one of my great joys in the world of horticulture. Some work, some don't for me but I will always try to remain open to an idea if it plausable and may help me to grow anything better. Thanks for the idea. You can't try what you don't know about. Happy Growing David |
- Posted by dibbit z7b SC (email@example.com) on Mon, Feb 26, 07 at 18:26
fertilizersalesman, not knowing/having used the dilution, I can't comment for sure, but it did seem as though it was fairly well diluted. Those of you who water with "town" water will be using chlorine anyway and so probably have to let it sit so the chlorine can dissipate for watering the sensitive plants. BUT, I can't believe any of you let the water for watering veggies or perennial beds sit before you water - you need to just get it done - and most of those plants aren't super-sensitive. I can imagine that the small amount of chlorine or sodium in the dilution of the "sea salt" is too small to badly affect plants. As well, I understand this is advocated as a sometime foliar spray, not as a soil drench, so the build up of chemicals in the soil should be fairly small. I agree that salting the soil heavily is one way to stop vegetation growing in a place for years - and that salt incursions into ground water can limit fertility. But I also think that a one-time usage, or a foliar spray, used every few weeks, aren't enough to make a problem. An old herbicide for asparagus beds was to salt them - asparagus seems to be fairly salt tolerant, while the weeds weren't, but that was a heavy dose - handsful rather than spoonsful, and in the soil, not a foliar feeeding. |
- Posted by fertilizersalesman z6 PA (My Page) on Tue, Feb 27, 07 at 13:01
sea water contains the following in parts per million: Clorine 18,980 everything else is less than 1 part per million. So yes, you could use a low enough dose that the sodium would not damage your plants, but you would be getting very very little of anything else. My question is why bother? If you needed a nutrient use a better source. |
Who said Sea Agri was a fertilizer? The author of this thread has already stated satisfaction with the answers provided. If you wish to continue this discussion may I suggest you start your own thread, make your statement, or ask your question in that thread? I may help you if I can… Blutranes |
- Posted by fertilizersalesman z6 PA (My Page) on Wed, Feb 28, 07 at 13:16
It isn't a fertilizer, it isn't a soil amendment, and it isn't a pesticide. It is little more than a waste of time and money with much more potential to do damage than help. The reason I keep posting is to respond to the posts of others. I am sorry you do not appreciate my opinion. |
As it relates to Sea Agri: *You do not know what it is "I am sorry you do not appreciate my opinion." Who said anything about your opinion? Sea Agri is a fact, it is real, it does what it says it does, and at least two people in this thread know it (at least one for sure). No need to get all upset because you have never used it; nor is it necessary to make accusations about worth of a product in the face of all this. Look, you can avoid these kinds of situations you get yourself into. What I do is only speak on topics I have first hand knowledge, all others I learn about the topic if I am interested. I ask questions if I do not understand. If you struggle with the words "can you tell me about…" then find some other way to get a better understanding. I am not trying to tell you what to do; I am only offering a means for you to circumvent the obvious. Do as you wish, just leave out my appreciations if you do not mind… Blutranes |
- Posted by fertilizersalesman z6 PA (My Page) on Wed, Feb 28, 07 at 18:19
You are mistaken, I know exactly what it is. The numbers I posted above came right off the Sea Agri web site. If you are convinced that this is a beneficial product, go ahead and use it. But you should not be offended if I point out that it is snake oil, which is exactly what it is. I never would have dreamed that people would pay $2.50 a pound for sea salt to put on their gardens because it is so utterly ridiculous. But then again I never dreamed people would pay good money to put coal dust in their garden either. But hey, if you are having fun pretending it is a miracle product knock yourself out I am not going argue with you about it. |
No, there is no need to argue; not with someone who is at such a disadvantage as yourself. If you wish to hold onto misinformation and pass it on as fact that is your option. Nonetheless, I will continue to leave you right where you belong. Not only is your inability to admit lack of knowledge sad at best, you now display and acute inability to understand what you read. Thank goodness there are more people on this board beside you and I. I do appreciate your effort to save me from myself; alas it is for naught. Coal dust you say? Yes, let me heap it on thick and heavy over here, and soak it in with seawater. Rest assured, I will not be ashamed to share all the results of my ridiculous endeavors in picture form for all to have a great laugh, and to learn from the mistakes of yours truly. Now that you have had you chance at my undivided attention, I am wondering if it may be possible for you and I to go back to our previous behavior. Not saying this has not been fun, for your skills at helping others continues to impress. Do have a great evening. Now, where is that dang coal shovel… Blutranes |
It occurred to me this morning that I have been wrong about some thing around here. First of all, this thread is about remineralizing the earth. You see, Sea Agri is one of the products used by this movement to replenish the earth with lost minerals that have been farmed away or that have not been present in the soil due to geographic location. Remineralizations' main weapon is "rock dust", a byproduct of the gravel/cement industry. Byproduct is another name for garbage, it is worthless to a producer; they have to pay to get rid of it. Well, it has been discovered that if you add "rock dust" to your garden your plants will go ballistic with growth. The minerals in rock dust are what have been missing in the soil. Rock dust sells for about $0.01 (one penny) per ton. The problem is shipping cost as you can imagine. Since there is no profit in rock dust, industry has no interest in selling it, but they will gladly give you all you want, as long as you take it with you. The more you take the better! Sea Agri is the same as rock dust, except it comes from the sea. A medical doctor discovered a location (trade secret) where this important mineral accumulates on the ground; it is there for the taking. He discovered that when added to soil, it replaces all the lost/missing minerals within said soil. Sea Agri contains the exact same minerals that are found in human blood, so in effect you are replacing in the soil the very thing that gives you life. Like all things associated with organics, a small amount is very potent; it is not wise to be greedy when applying amendments when organic growing. Sea Agri, as I stated earlier is applied at the rate of 1 (one) teaspoon per gallon of water. You do not soak a plant with the solution, you only mist it very lightly; thus a gallon goes a very long way. I used less than one cup last year, and I have 11 (eleven) plots, the smallest are 50x6 feet. The cost of a teaspoon of Sea Agri is $0.02 (two pennies); you get a lot of bang for your pennies with remineralization. With Sea Agri coming in 40-pound sacks, this bag will probably still be here when I am dead and gone. So, the people who sell Sea Agri will not likely sell me anything again. I paid $40.00 ($1.00 per pound) for the bag, but I did not have to pay shipping since I went to the distributors home and picked it up. I wonder what all this means to a person that sells fertilizer, organic or chemical? Rock dust, Sea Agri, composting, coffee grounds, and anything else associated with organic gardening sucks! We organic gardeners are perpetual recyclers, we go to the dump and take stuff, not bring anything in. We throw away nothing organic, we collect leaves, save newspaper, seek out manures, hoard coffee grounds, and we are a real problem to people selling anything. And we talk a lot, we tell everybody about the virtues of organics; we are walking talking nightmares to certain industries. Finally, I get to the part where I have been wrong. I was wrong to say certain people do not know what they are doing and saying around here. They very well know what they are doing, they are trying to stop this threat to their 401K. If organic people find out they can add wood charcoal to their compost and soil, the wood charcoal will last in the soil for 2500 years, and increase there soil fertility x1000 there won't be too much selling of anything to those crazy people! Add to that the fact that they all have very big mouths and tell everybody who will listen to them and we have a real dilemma on our hands. The only thing to do is discredit the most innovative, tell them to plant noxious weeds in their compost, and get all we can out of them while the "getting is good". Well, it's not going to work with ole Blutranes. You might as well go get yourself a case of Pepto Bismol and put on your seat belt, it's going to be a bumpy ride. I do apologize for being so long-winded, but I didn't want to let my mistake be left uncorrected. Please keep an open mind, fear not the unknown, or be fooled by those who wish to maintain the status quo. Everything must change, nothing stays the same, nothing and no one stays unchanged. We are the future of this planet, and we will not be moved… Blutranes |
Here is a link that might be useful: The Future is Green
Please allow me to say one other thing. I am in no way implying all members connected with the commercial organic industry are of a negative character. Some of our most valued and trusted members are connected with the organic industry, the scientific, agricultural, floral, and chemical industries as well are represented. We members have had to endure attacks upon these members too; this is sad to admit. It is refreshing to know their example remains available to follow. It is their unselfish, member motivated, helpful, and general kind nature that has been one of the most valued assets of this website. I am grateful to have such members here to help keep a knucklehead like me with a green, lush, and productive garden. I, in no way mean any disrespect to any member of this board. It is sad that such a small few can have a negative impact on the goodwill of others. Now, let me shut up and get back to learning… Blutranes |
- Posted by fertilizersalesman z6 PA (My Page) on Thu, Mar 1, 07 at 13:11
Wow bluetranse, guess I struck a nerve. I promise I will make every effort not to torment you any further and will not speak another word about using sea salt on gardens. We only sell OMRI listed fertilizers suitable for certified organic farming. We make 100's of tons of compost for our fertilizers and I would describe our company as dedicated to organic food production. I am constantly harassed by snake oil salesmen hawking various voodoo products. We have never done so. We also do not carry products that have merit but are too expensive to be practical. In summery, if it is not scientifically valid, scientifically proven in the field, and economically feasible we do mess with it. I am sure this biases my opinions. Plants and soils are very resilient giving gardeners the luxury of monkeying about and spending lots of time on things that would be a complete waste of time on a commercial level. |
No offense taken at all. Sea Agri too, is certified for certified organic farming, which is listed on their sight. I would never suggest any gardener put anything on their soil that I was not completely sure was safe and effective IMO. If I have said anything that could be viewed as rude or out of order I stand corrected; however, my dedication to the organic movement and the principles it entails will forever remain true. I trust our understanding today will give us both pause in the future (speaking for myself, of course). As I have said many times before, my respect for you remains unchanged... Blutranes |
In India commercial growers of coconut trees add a handful of sea salt. They say the yields are better and the coconut water tastes better. There are few sayings (like proverbs) "Like coconut tree which can convert salt to sweet." A friend of mine who follows Beddoes book-Nutrition home grown) shared with me a couple of pounds of sea salt for trail obtained from sea agri cop. I have used it. But I can not quantify the results as I have done few other things also. I will this summer run trials. The plants and the grass are doing well and no harm done. The recommended quantity is minimal. Experiment is also the fun part of gardening. Fortunately for some the cost and time are not a problem. |
It's ok Fertsaleman...a medical doctor said it was. It gives life back to the earth. Just a little is great! And regardless of the fact that when you dilute it, it is nothing but dilute salt water, let's do it anyway because I have no real proof it increases my yield. There's a good reason! What medical doctor? What trade secret? No money exchanged there for sure. Oh brother...let me see the pier reviewed reaseach. Ed |
Lots of peer reviewed research indicates sodiums are not always bads for plants, it is a matter of what sodium and what dosage. While I can not attest to the efficacy of the specific product under discussion in this thread I was spurred to do some research on sodium as a result of it and was surprised to learn sodium is regarded as a functional plant nutrient. Not an essential nutrient like nitrogen or potassium, but a functional nutrient meaning that in some dosages it has been observed under controlled conditions to produce desirable plant responses. It has resulted in increased plant biomass as well as resulted in decreased essential nutrient requirements in some cases. As a starting point for exploration of the information out there google on sodium plant growth -pressure The -pressure part is to avoid the many links to high pressure sodium lights. Many of the best links are to university and government sites. I am certainly not about to start recommending people sprinkle their garden soils with table salt as I don't know nearly enough about the subject to do so in good conscience, but I have learned enough about the topic to have been surprised that sodium isn't always a bad thing when it comes to plant growth. |
Yes, but don't you think there is some feel good marketing "it is better salt because it comes from the sea salt", rather than Morton's. Sodium chloride is sodium chloride. Investigate the dried sea salt for extra stuff you would not put in you mouth as opposed to Morton's if it is just about the sodium....$1.00 / pound...great puchase. Hey, what happens when the forty pound bag of salt rots or leaches because you have not used it in ten years. Heck of a dead spot of ground...of course there is probably some other snake solution to fix that as well. |
Yes, but don't you think there is some feel good marketing "it is better salt because it comes from the sea salt", rather than Morton's. Make no mistake about it, there is no shortage of snake oil claims in this world, I think everyone reading this would agree. My reading of the Sea Agri website sets off several red alert alarms in my brain because I see things on the site that pattern match with past scams. It claims to have 30 years of scientific research behind it, but only mentions the founder, a doctor of something. It claims the ocean minerals are the reason some cultures have more people living to 100 years and beyond than others. It makes enough fantastical claims with nothing approaching sufficient evidence to support them that I am quite convinced the Sea Agri people are at least partially nuts or perhaps just unscrupulous. Probably nuts. At the end of the day (I hate this expression, but still use it), it doesn't mean their product does or doesn't 'work'. It does mean I wouldn't purchase it from them though, because they seem like nuts. Still, I think there is much we have to learn about the role various elements do or can play in plant growth. I do not believe the list of essential nutrients represents humanity having reached the end of possible knowledge. I do believe NASA and the various universities who say they have seen plants respond favorably to small amounts of sodiums under controlled conditions. It isn't necessarily sodium chloride. Minerals from the ocean are not all 'salt'. I am sufficiently interested in this topic that I own and will use an ocean mineral product intended for use as a foliar spray used infrequently and in very dilute amounts. I don't yet know what the results will be. I do know that I look forward to trying it out in a semi controlled test. So yes, I totally understand where you are coming from. I believe I agree with you. At the same time I am not convinced that there is no merit to some of the claims. At least those that the university and government researchers seem to find under controlled conditions. The Sea Agri people are long on claims and short on science. No, they are entirely devoid of any science apart from that of their founder and that strikes me as about as credible as L. Ron Hubbard and the church of 'scientology'. In summary, yes, I agree with you about the Sea Agri marketing, but perhaps not concerning sodium and other salts/minerals not included on the official list of essential plant nutrients. |
no sir, not at all agrivated with your comments or observations...I think they are great. I was particularly unimpressed with prior observations and just could not help but comment. Sorry to drag the conversation under. I did think I read where the product was analyzed to have 50+ ppm gold along with cadmium, lead, and other wonderful metals. I love research, but probably will not include Sea Agri in my list of potential sources that would change organic growing from people complaining to actually finding a remedy for large scale, cost effective farming. Again, sorry for the bad attitude. Ed |
End3 For someone who a little over 13 months ago was new to organic gardening you certainly have made great strides in your organic education. I too can understand your reluctance to fathom the thought of putting Sea Agri on your garden. Your experience with blood meal and onions, I am sure, still encourages loving looks from the neighborhood. The inability to follow directions or use common sense seems in short supply where you are concerned. The fact that the school children could not enjoy their environmental tour of the butterfly garden due to the smell of death the blood meal you put on those onions caused would discourage me from listening to any talk of something new as well. You never did mention how long it took before the tours could be started back again; just how did you get that stinking odor off the property so kids would not get sick walking around your house? Not to mention you taking the suggestion to pee on the butterfly plants at the community garden not quite a year ago. I imagine your finding out your urine contained some kind of disease that killed all the butterfly flowers came as a shock. It comes as no surprise that you would view my review and experience with Sea Agri with total suspicion. The mere mention of the word salt probably sent chills up your spine. So, did you ever admit your urinary adventure, or did you blame that one on the organic gods? It is probably much safer for you to stick with school science projects; at least a responsible adult supervises them. And since you have asked to be "given a break" I will do my best to satisfy your request. Maybe it would be wiser for your immediate environment if Ed gave up organic gardening all together and let Ed get his organic food from Kroger. That way the neighborhood can have clean fresh air to breath, the kids can go back to having field trips, and the community garden can once again enjoy butterflies instead of having to looking a dead yellow colored flowers. Leave the cutting edge technology to those of us that can handle the responsibility, you can read about the results when you get back from the store… Blutranes |
You know I admit that I would never have entered this forum except for noticing that the extra chicken eggs in our back yard when disposed of in a concentrated area really made the grass greener. After conducting many experiments with the eggs, my mind changed to yes, there is really something to these organic ideas, and have been helped here at this forum. This observation has led to more than one 1st place in children's science fair projects as well as changing to organic fertilization in my wifes butterfly garden, again, something to help the environment and educate the children. I have mostly put my ignorance out there with hoped to be perceived humor. I have learned alot. I guess what bothers me is hate directed at less than organic gods such as yourself. The other gentleman in this thread strikes me as someone who is looking for a larger solution, hey, like putting millions of pounds of a waste product from the egg industry on large scale crops to promote a better environment. But no, it is not enough to put organic materials that you would classify as a fertilizer on something. An organic material is not good enough for you. I just think 1 foot of compost will be hard to distribute on 3000 acres. I am not knocking the product, but I am the attitude. But thanks for all the encouragement blutranes, you have been a big help. And next time you put an egg in your compost pile, please think of me. |
Thanks for the kind words Ed, your humor is only exceeded by your humility. Learning for some is very exciting and rewarding, for others the safe road is the sure road. Have a great day and save that urine for the compost pile; it spreads better on the soil... Blutranes |
Urine diluted five or ten-to-one in water and applied to plants is effectively a chemical fertilizer - it can give a good boost to plant growth but doesn't do a lot for the soil. Applied direct to mulches during slow-growth seasons is good, as is directly in the compost. I use all three methods. Blu, have you been experimenting with trying to re-create terra preta? I've been adding ash with charcoal chunks in it for ten years or so. Supposedly the amerindians ground the charcaol into dust. Of course I have the freeze-thaw cycle which may ultimately do the same thing. I wonder if diluting some celtic salt in water would achieve a similar effect to agrisalt? Or I'll steep a slug of seaweed in a barrel of water for a few weeks. |
Pnbrown, Yep, we have been adding charcoal to the compost over here since early December. I will say it appears there is something to this. Like some on this board, learning of something new generates interest and the desire to see what it is all about first hand. Most of the things I do today are a direct result of someone else admitting without shame what they are up to as it relates to gardening. Going slow, staying observant, and not being afraid of being called something in print that would not be said face-to-face is expected. So, tell me, how is the charcoal working for you? I can say, it seems to me, seeds germinate quickly with the charcoal addition. As well, the soil/compost is such a pretty dark (almost black) color, and the texture is light plus it seems the soil is holding water much better. Give me a review of what you are seeing if you have time. Seems spending expendable income on organic gardening "toys/gadgets/experiments" is a no-no to some. Too bad I must say Pnbrown; some are missing the true excitement of discovery. Sea Agri, charcoal, seaweed, rock dust, and the proper use of urine do have their rewards to those so inclined. And what of the move on your part, how is that coming? There are plenty of 10 acre or more plots around here, not to mention all this abundant organic material folks around here insist on throwing away. So tell ole Blutranes, are we heading south, or did you decide on another direction? Fearless minds tend to be nosey from time to time… Blutranes |
Wow, was not expecting this response. I have learned much from all of you. I will still use the salt in small amounts. I will post if I see any adverse effects. Charcoal? Urine? I will look into those. Where do you get the charcoal? I am about 90 miles north of Atlanta. And how do you stop those annoying popup ads? |
And how do you stop those annoying popup ads? FireFox + Adblock Plus + AdBlock Filterset updater. All free. |
- Posted by ratherbgardening PNW 7 or 8 (My Page) on Wed, Mar 7, 07 at 15:01
gpaintjr, thanks for posting this topic. I've often wondered if a good quality sea salt could be used. A lot of rose growers use epsom salts, so why not a 'whole' sea salt? You could get the brand in the link and what you don't use in your garden can be used in your food. It's a tasty salt and my older teen prefers it over refined salt by far. Of course, it costs more than the one discussed, but should be easier to get locally and in smaller quantities. I believe the macro and micro minerals are just as important for plants as they are for people. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Celtic Sea Salt
We recently starting using that celtic salt; for eating, havn't tried it for the garden. Blu, I havn't noticed a particular persistence of the charcaol chunks in my soil. I guess they break down pretty quickly. The soil is quite sandy, things like charcoal leach out fast. It's probably much more persistent in a clay soil, and much more effective. I believe the 'terra preta' soils of south america are clay-based. Regarding my southward migration, in fact I am south of you this moment and am going to plant up a big sweet-potato bed today from tubers harvested the other day. In fine sand soil of what were wind-formed sand-dunes near the sea some millions of years ago. I have yet to find even a pebble in this ground, let alone a small rock. No earthworms either, anywhere, even in the leaf-mat under forested areas. I guess I've more or less made up my mind to make my homestead here for the near future. I mean, why not garden in winter? Can that be wrong? |
I must say I have enjoyed reading all of the comments on this topic. I especially keyed in on the comment of how some of you enjoy learning and science. I too am an avid fan of scientific research. Therefore, may I suggest that some of you who have some of this sea salt stuff set up an experiment. Take three plots of land, water them all the same, and then spray each with the same amount of water. On one plot add the sea salt to the water you spray, to another add an equivalent amount of sodium chloride from table salt (if help is needed with this calculation just ask), and leave the last as your blank control. After growing season please share your SCIENTIFIC DATA that you collected from these three plots. Then and only then will I believe that there is an advantage to this sea salt. Besides it is all for the sake of good gardening and science. |
- Posted by soil_lover (My Page) on Sun, Mar 11, 07 at 5:11
http://www.remineralize.org/ Here is some good reading on soil remineralization and Sea 90(sea salts) You can also do research on DR. Murrary and read about his results using sea water and sea salts. He used these hydroponic and regular methods. |
- Posted by organic-marcie 7 (My Page) on Thu, Mar 15, 07 at 5:01
OK, here is the misconception. When you are talking about SALT in gardening we are not talking about sodium chloride. That is the type of salt that is in Sea Salt and Table Salt. The Salt you should use is Epsom Salt. It is Magnesium Sulphate. Soil most definately needs some sodium chloride, but by rotating your crops, you can keep from depleting your soil of Salt. Just as legumes are a nitrogen fixating plant, some plants have the same effect with Salt. The other problem with using sodium chloride is it will burn your plants, expecially if you live in a hotter climate. Secondly, the reason people from Inda put sea salt on their coconut trees is because they are closer to the sea and have a high rate in the soil naturally, so the tree has acclimated to having that much sea salt. |
My garden is 500 feet from saltwater, so proximity to the ocean probably doesn't necessarily have much to do with needing such amendments or not. |
- Posted by soil_lover (My Page) on Sun, Mar 18, 07 at 19:20
organic-marcie, Sea 90 is a lot more than mag sulphate. Sea Solids contains the 90 elements found in seawater. Dr. Murrays studies show that adding sea solids to the soil, increased the nutritional quality of plants. This product is OMRI listed. Though I never tried it myself, I don't feel it is necessarly bad for the soil. I would like to hear from more growers that have used it, how it effected the quality and quantity of their produce. Animals forage more on soils that were treated with this product. |
I have applied this product to some of my soil for the upcoming year. Know some farmers have used it and claim good results. You add it for four years and then skip five they say. I would like to know how those who tried it last spring came out. What the results were and if they could tell a difference. I have found you never learn anything new if you don't try. Going to do some comparison treatments this year and take pictures of each so I can document the results. Looking forward to hearing from those who have tried it and their results good or bad. Those who haven't and just want to bad mouth Sea-90 I would prefer not to hear from. JMO. Jay |
I wonder how the stuff in Sea-90 compares to a Marine salt sold for salt water aquariums both in terms of content and price. I do a 5 gallon water change per week in my reef tank and normally just dump the water down the drain. Wouldn't mind using it in a small area or for a few container plants just to see what happens. If nothing else, all the good stuff in sea salt mixes is soluble and balanced. Not sure about the pH shifting properties though, most mixes are buffered at 7.8-8.4, but that may not have any appreciable affect on soils. I do know that the salt water from my tank makes a good ice melt! ;-) |
- Posted by plantnfool (My Page) on Tue, Jan 22, 08 at 21:25
One of the biggest problems worldwide with our agricultural land is salinization from salt building up from irrigation water. I cannot imagine intentionally adding salt to my soil. Do what you want. It is a free country as of yet. Plantnfool. |
- Posted by soil_lover (My Page) on Wed, Jan 23, 08 at 0:04
Actually sodium chloride is a functional element not a essential element in the soil. I have found studies on the internet about this subject last year. Seems it does have benefits.Salt buildup in waters is mainly due to chemical fertilizers. I too would like to hear what results others had. So far, any posts that I have read from users on different forums has been positive. |
- Posted by plantnfool (My Page) on Wed, Jan 23, 08 at 21:07
It is my understanding that vast areas of Russia are not fit for any farming of any kind due to over use of river water for irrigation that has increased the salt in the soil to the point of devastation. When Rome defeated Carthage sometime before Christ they salted the soil to destroy the areas ability to support itself by farming. Carthage ceased to be an entity in the politics of the mediterranean. Again do as you please. I am not salting my soil. |
What about seaweed extract as a foliar spray? |
I think it's important to keep dosage in mind. Natural seawater is about 1/2cup of salt per gallon. To apply this for every watering would probably kill anything growing. When we give our plants nitrogen, it will also kill them, in doses smaller than 1/2 cup per gallon of water. I can't say whether an occasional watering with salt has any benefits or not, but I don't see the occasional use of a weak dilution being inherently harmful. When in doubt, test in containers ;-) |
It would be helpful to see a side by side comparison of the minerals and other constituents in diluted Sea Agri, and those in urine. They sound similar, but urine is free and plentiful. |
See anothr link in favor of sea salt. Mike Adams is a reputed naturalist and I have found his recommendations work. http://www.naturalnews.com/SpecialReports/Ocean_Grown.pdf |
- Posted by crankyoldman z5 NY (My Page) on Tue, Jun 10, 08 at 15:18
Seaweed grows in salt water but is not salty. Kelp does contain a lot of minerals, and frankly, I cannot understand why anyone would want to use sea salt instead of kelp. Liquid kelp has been shown to provide minerals in many, many situations without toxifying the soil. Sea salt is most well known for precisely toxifying the soil. It is not meaningful that the distribution of minerals in sea salt is the same as in our body. Just for starters, salt water is a proven emetic. Drink it long enough and it will kill you. So that analogy is totally busted. So what exactly are the advantages of sea salt over kelp, asides from being extraordinarily cheap (you get what you pay for)? No one has addressed that at all. |
urine is fine if diluted 20 parts water to 1 part urine. and as far as your theory on the salt and WAY back when plantnfool, 1, that WAS way back then 2, they didn't have all the air pollutants we have now 3, if ya go biblical, well , our bodies NEED so much sodium or we'd die,( trust me on this, i had a low sodium count because of the meds i take and had to rush to the docs and get a rush on an iv or i'd been in serious trouble!! i was very sick for a while,) so that being said it only makes sense that the earth also needs a certain amount of sodium, not to mention the fact that sodium is a natrual resource and GOD did make it, therefore you would figure it needs it, just in WHAT quantities, GOD did give us a brain to use, its up to us to use it and figure out stuff like this, what works where and how much to use. IMO i'm not trying to be mean, :')) BLU: while i do enjoy your reading all of your stuff, you are a very informative person!! man, you can really get into this with people about their not using something or not being "up to knowledge" on something. (i'm NEVER good with words!!! LOL) i notice this is a serious forum, i love this forum for all the knowledge it has, i want to organic garden, but some of you really are sorda harsh!! maybe ya don't mean to come off that way, but you sure do!!! i am so very interested in this charcoal and putting it on the garden, i read that on the other topic. VERY INTERESTING!! i love reading all of your idea's though!! :')) **big grinn** |
- Posted by Solution Doctor(firstname.lastname@example.com) onFri, Dec 31, 10 at 12:12
Have tried Sea Agri and had tremendous results. But also try Ocean Solution. Won't leave a dead spot and there is plenty of Science and official testimonials. Most of the individuals posting should google 'White Paper' on Sea Salts. Here is some food for thought for the uneducated,use the resources that are aviable on the Net. You will get an education surrounding the use of NPK based fertilizers vs Sea salt supplements. |
- Posted by michael357 5b KS (My Page) on Sat, Jan 1, 11 at 15:22
Soln. Doc., please supply some links to the research you refer to, not interested in testimonials. |
- Posted by michael357 5b KS (My Page) on Sun, Jan 2, 11 at 18:03
Plantfool and soil_lover: do not confuse the term salt, sodium chloride, with salts, accumulated minerals in water and soil. A buildup of salts in surface waters is not caused primarily by "chemical fertilizers" but rather by the accumulation of soluble minerals dissolving into the waters from waters passing over and/or through soil. The effect of an over accumulation of sodium in soils is very different than that of salts, look up "saline soils", "sodic soils" and "saline sodic soils". In my alkaline clay loam soil, it would be insane to add salt, absolutely nothing good could come from it. |
- Posted by Andymcfandy(firstname.lastname@example.com) onThu, Mar 17, 11 at 1:21
What about the great flood and Noah? Was god remineralizing the earth? I think so! |
Cranky, seaweed is salty. Where do you think seaweed got all of those minerals anyway? From the ocean water. Seafood has long been considered to be very healthy, but the question is why? It has constant access to the minerals in the water. Do you have a better explanation? I too have used SEA-90, and no, I have no association with the company. I used it on my lawn, my herbs, fruit trees, vegetables, etc. The results have been very impressive and the leaves get this beautiful, dark green color. I'd recommend reading "Sea Energy Agriculture", by Dr. Maynard Murray, or at least read some of his articles and/or excerpts from his book on the web. See if what he wrote doesn't make perfect sense to you. Just because he was first and foremost a medical doctor doesn't mean he wasn't an expert on agriculture too. Just about anyone is capable of educating themselves by reading books and doing their own research/experiments. You don't need a professor to hold your hand and tell you what to read and what not to read in order to do it. Especially if that professor was taught to automatically disregard anything that he/she wasn't taught in school or anything that contradicts what was taught, which is common. |
Well, reviewing my comments on this thread I see that I have learned a lot since then about soil science. This year I used salts of five or six different minerals in the garden, and increased health and vigor is pretty clear. I also got ahold of a small amount of granite dust and am using that as well. I will assert that it is much less costly to mine and transport the elements than it is to transport concentrated OM. One 50lb bag of sul-po-mag will create a huge amount of well-mineralized OM over time, and presumably 50 lbs of very fine granite dust far more. Shipping around heavy liquid seaweed is a refined example of stupidity, because it is largely N. A well-managed system doesn't need N-input. The trace elements in liquid seaweed can be more easily and cheaply obtained from other sources. Borax is a salt of Boron and an easily available way to add B, which is low in most soils and is a very critical complex plant element. I found the easiest way to add it is to mix it into limestone when one adds lime. Blu, are you still out there? i was wrong about the charcoal, it is very stable and persistent. I find it in the soil constantly now. I have read that charcoal is a magnet for minerals, so it is an excellent thing to add with the mineral salts. |
Nice to see someone educated themselves. Yes they are called trace elements because plants only need them in trace amounts. Most soils contain all the trace elements needed by plants but in some areas one or more can be lacking. Plant symptoms can give you a clue, but only a soil test can tell you for sure. In the uncommon case that a soil is lacing in some trace element it can usually be corrected without throwing an expensive miracle cure all's at it. |
According to a least one paradigm, the one for the lab I am getting tests from, most of the macro and micro nutrients are lower than optimum in most soils. So it would be a very rare soil that did not need mineral supplements to produce disease-free and insect-resistant crops. |
You can add all the mineral material possible and still not see worhtwhile results if yiour soil does not contain enough organic matter to allow your soil to have an actgive Soil Food Web which will convert those minerals into nutrietns your plants can use. Most often adding sufficient amounts of organic matter to your soil will supply enough of those trace nutrients so spending money on supplements will not be necessary. |
Kimm, give it a break. This thread is about minerals, not a debate about whether minerals inputs are bad and whether the only acceptable input is OM grown on some other land of unknown mineral quality. I have only ever read this one sentiment from you; it is on a limited basis good advice, for beginners or for impoverished soil it can hardly go wrong. As an advanced way of operating it makes no sense and a whole generation of unthinking organic gardeners with their endless problems have proved it. |
Organic matter, PH, and a host of other things effect the minerals and nutrients available to a plant. Many times soils contain all the needed minerals but sometimes they are not available to the plants. This is why the first step is to determine what the soil is made up of so you don't waste your money on garbage. Sometimes all that is needed is organic matter, sometimes not. All situations are different; for example there are plants that really hate organic matter and mulch, and some that thrive if this is all they get. Am I confusing anyone yet? |
"all situations are different" Maybe, but I'd call that statement exaggeration or splitting hairs. Many situations are quite similar in a given geographic/climatic region is a more useful way to look at it. |
I know this is an old thread, and I haven't read the whole thing, but I wanted to make one comment. In the first third of the thread, it was repeated several times that sea-mineral amendments have many more minerals, etc., than plants need. Hazarding a comment that could be spun to sound like Bill Clinton, that depends on your definition of "need". Plants can grow in poor soil with just synthetic NPK fertilizers. That's been proven over my lifetime on commercial farms all over the place, with soils tottering on the knife-edge of dead (hovering at about 3% organic matter). The plants grow, they don't usually die in large numbers, and produce crops that can be sold. "Needs" satisfied. Plants also grow in hydroponic medium, on a liquid diet, whether synthetic or naturally-derived, resulting in edible produce that many consider high quality. "Needs" satisfied. Plants grow in rich, deep, vital soil made up of innumerable flora and fauna and an intricate life web providing everything the plants "need". The main difference between the finished products (well, some would quibble with me, but this is my post, and my opinion ;o) is nutritional content. The more varied and intense the mineral content of the soil, the more nutritious the produce grown in it. Taste alone tells us this . . . but there have been studies (including one done by Nate Skow from FDA crop nutritional content records). The more mineral-rich in the soil, the better the plants do. The better the plants do, the better WE do, because we get what we need without eating 2,500 calories a day and still being hungry. ;o) That said, I'm going to try some sea-schtuff on my garden this year. I've used kelp before, and LOVED it. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Article on declining food value of crops.
There are about so many macro and micro minerals needed for optimum plant growth. There are even more minerals needed for optimum human growth. Elements like Yttrium, Scandium, Vanadium, Strontium, and more are vital yet needed in minute amounts. I believe that is where remineralizing on soils with good synergy to make these elements available is important. |
Blutranes, are you living? |
Lets see, where to start. If one looks at the originator of this, then one can see that the good doctor ( not a research scientist, not a biochemist or anyone with a doctorate in a field that studies plants...nope a MD like the one you go to if you have a sore throat) filed a patent in 1958 that was granted in 1963... for the use of sea solids (unrefined sea salt from any ocean in this world...his words)in hydroponic gardening. In the patent he also claims results by testing it on tomatoes..the only soil based test mentioned in the patent. He claims that about a ton/acre of that material is the right amount to grow tomatoes. Looking at the actual growth results ...well, frankly I have seen better results by simply using compost. But, here is the zinger.... in order to get this result the sea solids described in the patent where mixed with ~900lbs of nitrogen /ton.So the good doctor did not use only sea salt, he mixed it with nitrogen pellets a chemical. So what you have is about a 50/50 mix of nitrogen to unrefined sea salt. |
- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Thu, Aug 16, 12 at 21:39
fertilizersalesman, "You are mistaken, I know exactly what it is. The numbers I posted above came right off the Sea Agri web site. If you are convinced that this is a beneficial product, go ahead and use it. But you should not be offended if I point out that it is snake oil, which is exactly what it is. I never would have dreamed that people would pay $2.50 a pound for sea salt to put on their gardens because it is so utterly ridiculous. But then again I never dreamed people would pay good money to put coal dust in their garden either. But hey, if you are having fun pretending it is a miracle product knock yourself out I am not going argue with you about it" Agree 100% nutritionally speeking- your not getting much, thats just science. |
I see that this thread began some years back, but I believe it is still worthy of my support. In 2006 I was on my death bed because my immune system was that badly compromised. I had already been to numerous specialists and major hospitals, all in effort to stop a strange disease that "developed" by my early 30's. So it was a last ditch effort to become an experimental patient at an out of state clinic that typically treated cancer patients - which I did not have. The obvious is that I'm still alive today to place this comment. There was a well established scientist at that clinic, who specialized in his knowledge of the human immune system - and invented some allergy treatments as a result of his understandings. Lets just say that he had a down to earth approach in treating me (and others at the clinic) that began with efforts to reinstate as much health as possible back to the immune system. That, because as he taught me, the immune system is the human body's first line of defense. What does that have to do with sea salt gardening? Well, six days a week I would receive an IV bag (over hours) that contained the vitamins and minerals / trace elements, ect., that my body had apparently been long lacking. In addition, I was instructed to do away with processed foods and meats, except for baked fish twice weekly. In place of the undesired foods I was to eat foods in their naturally grown form - especially those that were organically grown. The reason was to help assure that I was consuming, daily, the array of vitamins, minerals / trace elements that most people do not seem to be aware that they do not adequately get from processed foods. I want to share that I did not count calories, ate plates full of variously colored fruits and vegetables, nuts in their raw form, the required fish, gluten free grains, and so on. I didn't limit the amount I ate. Yet, I dropped 20 pounds a week until my weight simply leveled off, and I felt better than I had in years - like I was a teen again, energy wise. From (patient) group conversations that were held at the clinic, and with that scientist answering our questions, it seemed to me, that he did not especially favor artificial types of fertilizing, but organic fertilizing, and for one reason, because the first method did not replenish soil with most, if not all, of those necessary nutrients humans should be obtaining from vegetation. Sea foods do have those trace elements, if also a concern for mercury - why he limited twice weekly, I believe. My understanding was that minute amounts of those trace elements are all the human body requires - but that it most certainly does need them for optimal health. Just as a person can survive without all the needed nutrients, and apparently for some years (again, I reached my early 30s) I would imagine that vegetation also can. But there is a difference between merely surviving - feeling sickly and low of energy all the while - and THRIVING. In my case, my immune system had become so screwed up that it began attacking my own flesh. I'd had huge wounds on my lower legs that had not healed in years. Following the above diet changes they finally healed and I am alive - case in point. Science tells us that the entire world was once covered in ocean water, and that the plant and animal life that sprung from it was huge and robust after the waters receded. Common sense might suggest that it had to do with the nutrients left behind. I could further relate that to what trace elements are, and the fact that the human body has a degree of electrical functioning to it when it comes to cell-to-cell communication. So, yes, I can see where adding sea salt to growing food would be beneficial. |
Mary, An interesting story. It's lucky that you encountered someone who understood the importance of diet. Would you mind describing in some detail what your diet was like before going to the clinic? |
- Posted by ladyrose65 6bNJ (My Page) on Thu, Jan 17, 13 at 2:42
I'm going to add my two cents. I buy about $40 to $50 of seaweed (Nori, Wakame, Hijike, etc) I soak it in a large garbage can for 2-days and broad spread and work it into my soil. I've been doing it for at least 5-years. It's a great soil conditioner and the worms love it! Snake oil or wives-tale, I believe in seaweed. The plants love it too! It's a matter of preference. PS: I've had earth worms the size of small garter snakes, I was so scared. I thought the soil was radioactive. (I grew up watching The Blob and Tarantula! So I took them to the agricultural office, they tested them and they came back as healthy earthworms. The gentleman that worked there told me to bring him some more worm for his fishing (lol)! |
Yes, it is pretty well established beyond a doubt that plants that grow in seawater make the very best additions to garden soil. That is somewhat different thing from the topic of this thread, which is whether various extracts of seawater itself makes a good fertilizer. |
- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Thu, Jan 17, 13 at 11:27
I think cost is what makes any amendment a good idea or not. If you live by the shore you may get free seaweed or kelp. If you live in-land you may find cheap chicken manure ect... No you dont need kelp or salt at all. The midwest grows quite a bit of food. ;) |
Quantity of production is not the only concern, indeed, for any individual eater in normal circumstances it is of zero concern. |
- Posted by TheMasterGardener1 5B (My Page) on Thu, Jan 17, 13 at 12:31
It does when you produce all of your own root crops to have all winter! :) |
- Posted by michael357 5b, KS (My Page) on Thu, Jan 17, 13 at 20:57
No way in Hades would I put a high Na source material on my soil, can you say."sodic soil", or "flocculation"? No thank you very much, keep your sodium away from my garden! I'm trying to create pore space and improve my soil's structure, not ruin it. A wee bit'o educational material from my alma mater in the link. |
Here is a link that might be useful: CSU and sodic soils
I do take a couple kelp tablets a day for iodine supplementation. Using sea salt on your table instead of the regular may give a tiny bit of good minerals , but it has a lot less iodine than regular salt that is iodine fortified. I believe that people and crops may grow and endure without some of the more micro minerals, but optimum health needs them. SO.... I mineralize my soil moderately with dust that has assayed micro minerals. |
- Posted by butchfomby 74451 (My Page) on Tue, Jan 22, 13 at 23:21
- Posted by butchfomby (My Page) on Tue, Jan 22, 13 at 23:27
- Posted by butchfomby (My Page) on Tue, Jan 22, 13 at 23:29
- Posted by julian2121 none (My Page) on Tue, May 14, 13 at 21:02
Whatever is in the soil is wash off ( goes) to sea. In fact the mineral composition of sea water is the same as the mineral composition of human blood. This is logical because whatever is in the soil is absorbed by different kinds of plants which is consumed by us. Speaking of minerals soil is sea water, plants and animals. Bio char,,, yes it is very good and the only proof I need is the plant that grow at the place where we use to burn our garbage. I can tell you the plants on the burned spot is super healthy every time. Nature is my teacher it is the best there is. "comprehend and copy nature". As to the fertilizer saleman better find another job. |
Blutranes, where are ya? |
Do I need to pour the Sea Agri onto the ground or is it okay if I get it on the leaves? |
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We are doing new construction and have 46 - 6inch can lights. The builder purchases everything but the trims, which we need to choose. I am hopelessly lost on what is a good quality, reasonable cost for a 6 inch trim. We are not looking for anything fancy just standard white. Any suggestions on where to go, big box stores or online? Thanks, Mel |
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If you're installing LED recessed lights (e.g. - Cree CR6 or LR6, Sylvania RT6), the trim comes with the light. Otherwise, take a look at your local lighting stores, then shop around for the best price. |
Just get a bunch of Cree CR-6 LED units from Home Depot ($40/each, unless you live somewhere where they are subsidized), and call it a day. It is a very nice product. As davidtay says, it includes the trim. No affiliation with Cree. But I do have 4 CR-6s in my house, with 10 more on the way. (I could do two more, but they are in locations where it doesn't make fiscal sense.) |
Normally don't you need to get the trim from the same manufacturer as the can? I've seen several different types that often don't look interchangable. I too would strongly consider the Cree CR6 (called Ecosmart at HD) which is a super long lasting, very efficient LED downlight with built-in white trim that installs in most 6" cans. Since a separate trim costs about $12, it's like you're getting the light bulb for $28, which is what two or three halogen floodlights would cost, and the LED lasts as long at 10 halogen bulbs and uses 1/5 the electricity. The CR6 will quickly pay for itself. |
The rims alone ran about $10.60 at Lowe's and about $12 at Home Depot in our area. Seems that buying them in larger numbers you should be able to get them for less. We didn't find the LED option until after we had just bought and installed 6 new baffle rims -- I was just glad to clean up the ceiling with the the white baffle instead of the old gold/bronze color that accentuated the holes in the ceiling. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Another option for bulk purchase
Lascatz, thank you for the link! |
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Timothy Charles Bourn, 49, lost his life Thursday morning, October 11th, due to a hunting accident in Pinola.  Mr. Bourn is from Sumrall, MS and has property in Simpson County where he loves to hunt.  Despite Pinola Rescue, AMR, and AirCare's  great efforts, Mr. Bourn died at the scene where he had grabbed a small rotten limb above his ladder stand as he was climbing a little further to his seat and fell 25 to 30 feet straight on his back.  Sergeant Chris Wallace of the Simpson County Sheriff's Department says that the three responding could not have done any more to try and save Mr. Bourn's life. Also, it is understood that there was NO known malfunction of the tree stand itself. The last to hear from him by phone for help was two of his friends who were hunting on leased land across from Bourn's property.  He was able to reach them by cell phone and they called 911.  The AirCare landed in a yard of a home in Pinola.  There were people helping direct medical personnel from the highway into the area where Mr. Bourn was located, which was approximately 1 mile into the woods.The accident was near Big Hill Road and Little Hope Road in Pinola.  We are so saddened to hear of this horrible accident and we send our deepest sympathy to the family and friends of this Husband, Father, Son, and Friend.May God bring you comfort and peace at this very moment.   To all hunters, please use extreme caution when climbing into your stands while deer hunting.  1 Comments on "Hunter looses his life in Simpson County due to fall from tree" 1. On 10/12/2012 9:10:00 PM Renee Callaway Said: I appreciate this article on how Tim's accident happened, how helpful these men were out there on this morning trying to get their friend to the rescue as quickly as they could. It has saddened us all that knew him and friends to this family. He loved hunting and shared it with many of his friends. He will be missed and not forgotten by us all. Please men and women wear those harness and be careful and don't take a chance while climbing and hunting. Leave a Comment Name: *Email: Required (Will not be displayed) Please type the word/numbers into the box before submitting! Load New Code
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September 3, 2013
Julie Larsen Maher © WCS
We're seeing sea lions! Five California sea lions have made their way to the Queens, Prospect Park, and Bronx Zoos.
It's a summer of sea lions – five California sea lions have arrived at the WCS zoos. Here's an introduction to our splashy newcomers:
In QueensTwo adult male sea lions rescued in Oregon make their debut in Queens after nearly a month of training and care from Queens Zoo animal staff and a WCS veterinarian in the Pacific Northwest. They join Butch and Taylor to complete the bachelor group of four in the zoo's sea lion pool.
In Prospect ParkOriginally stranded off the coast of Point Hueneme, California, two female pups were rescued and are making a splash in Prospect Park Zoo. Following initial care and rehabilitation in California, the duo is doing well and learning basic behaviors from their keepers. Visit them in the sea lion pool alongside longtime residents Stella and Beebe.
In the BronxLast, but not least, a sea lion pup was born at the Bronx Zoo on June 28. She's the third baby for her mother, Indy, and the sixth for father, Kiani, who is now the breeding bull at the New York Aquarium. The unnamed pup swims with Halftime, Margaretta, McCabe, Nav, and Indy at the pool on Astor Court.
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Oct 21, 2014
TEL AVIV [MENL] -- Israel's military has been concealing renewed mortar androcket fire by Hamas and its militia allies in the Gaza Strip.
Oct 07, 2014
NICOSIA [MENL] -- Hamas and its Palestinian militia allies have demonstratedskills that stem from years of Iranian training on how to fight Israel.
Aug 14, 2014
CAIRO [MENL] -- Hamas has been dismayed by Egypt's mediation of a ceasefirewith Israel.
Jun 26, 2014
GAZA CITY [MENL] -- Despite a Palestinian unity government, Hamas remains incontrol of the Gaza Strip.


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Terminating Parental Rights
Locate a Local Family Lawyer
When Can Parental Rights Be Terminated?
Parental rights can be terminated by court order for the protection of the child or by consent of the parents. Terminating parental rights is generally used to remove a child from a destructive or unhealthy environment or as a precursor to adoption. It terminates all rights and obligations of the parent with respect to the child.
What Are Reasons for Terminating Parental Rights?
Generally, courts will terminate parental rights in the best interests of the child. This includes anytime there is danger to a child's physical, mental, moral, or emotional health.
Common grounds for terminating parental rights include:
- child neglect or abuse
- child deprivation
- untreated substance abuse by a parent
- emotional illness, mental illness, or mental deficiency of a parent
- abandonment
- a crime committed against the other parent
Examples of insufficient grounds for terminating parental rights include:
- a parent who has committed a crime and been incarcerated but is now clean
- conflicts of religion unless it endangers the child's best interests
- the fact that a parent lives with a non married member of the opposite sex
Do I Need an Attorney to Terminate Parental Rights?
The task of terminating parental rights can be complex and emotional. A family law attorney can help you through the process and help protect children in need.
Consult a Lawyer - Present Your Case Now!
Last Modified: 01-31-2014 03:10 PM PST


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The Rapitest Soil Test Kit features a "color comparator" and capsule system that's deigned for simplicity of use with accurate results. Give it a try! It's a fast and fun way to achieve better results from your gardening efforts!
Contains 40 tests (10 each for pH, Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium) with easy to use tablets. Complete instructions are included, plus a chart of pH and NPK levels on over 100 plants. Get instant results on the soil conditions in different parts of your garden or yard.
Instructions for Use – PDF format
Plant pH Preference List – PDF format
Grower's Tip:
Garden soil should be monitored periodically throughout the growing season, but it is especially recommended to analyze it before planting in spring and when preparing beds in fall.


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The Southwestern Christian University softball team has drawn the No. 8 seed in the Sooner Athletic Conference Softball Championship tournament. The Lady Eagles will start the tournament off facing the No. 1 seed Saint Gregory's at 1:30 pm at Ann Lacy Stadium on the campus of Oklahoma City University.
The Lady Eagles softball team will travel to Chickasha today for their last regular season game against USAO. SCU defeated the MACU Lady Evangels on Tuesday, winning 6-5 and 5-2. SCU played USAO at home this past Monday, where the Lady Drovers claimed both games over the Lady Eagles. Catch the Lady Eagles in action on the road today in Chickasha. Game times are set for 12 & 2 p.m.
You can catch game one action at: usao.edu/live-stats
Bethany, Okla. – The Southwestern Christian University softball team offense showed up against Mid America Christian University to get a doubleheader sweep. The Lady Eagles homered four times in yesterday's match-up and defeated the Lady Evangels 6-5 and 5-2.
Bethany, Okla. – The Lady Eagles softball squad registered a pair of losses to the USAO Lady Drovers on Monday evening. The Lady Drovers defeated the Lady Eagles 10-5 and 16-6.
USAO out hit SCU 28-17 and only committed two errors compared to the Lady Eagles nine.
The SCU Lady Eagles softball team will play the USAO Lady Drovers tonight at the SCU softball field. The Lady Eagles had this past Easter weekend off but traveled to Waxahachie, TX on Thursday where they split with the Lady Lions. SAGU took game by coming back in the 7th to clinch the 7-6 victory. SCU bounced back in game two and claimed a 9-4 win over the Lady Lions. USAO traveled to Texas this past weekend where they played Texas Wesleyan and Northwood. Friday the Lady Drovers knocked Texas Wesleyan down in the SAC rankings and claimed two victories over the Lady Rams. Northwood gave the Lady Drovers a run for their money on Saturday though, winning game one 6-5 but USAO would come back to win game two 8-3. Catch the Lady Eagles in action tonight on their home field. Game times are scheduled for 5&7 p.m.
Ecclesia College at | 1:00pm |
Southwestern Christian | CST |
Ecclesia College at | Game |
Southwestern Christian | 2 |
Friends University at | 12:00pm |
Southwestern Christian | CST |
Friends University at | Game |
Southwestern Christian | 2 |
Kansas Wesleyan at | 1:00pm |
Southwestern Christian | CST |
Kansas Wesleyan at | Game |
Southwestern Christian | 2 |


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Join The Community!
The new Kindle models are out, they range in price from $79 to $199. For $79 there is a model called the Kindle, for $99 there is the Kindle Touch Wifi, for $149 there is the Kindle Touch 3G, for $99 there is the Kindle Keyboard wi-fi, for $139 there is the kindle keyboard 3G, and for $199 there is the color kindle fire. Details in the link below.
Below are the thoughts I emailed to Amazon. (Since I have an iPad and use the Kindle app I could not justify buying one for myself and don't really see a need.)
I think you have done a good job with your new Kindle options. However, I am not happy with how you are advertising the prices. You are listing the "with special offers" price which is $30 less. Please change your advertising to say "Starting at $79, $99 and $149." No where on the main page or the Kindle page does it say anything about the price being "with offers." It just seems misleading to me. I'm a loyal Amazon Prime customer and have been using Amazon for years. I think this is poor and misleading.
I would love to get my mother the regular Kindle and $79 (plus protection plan) would, barely, fit in to my Christmas price range for her. But $103 (plus protection plan) would not. I don't want her to have adds.
I agree with the poor terminology on the "special offers."
But I'm seriously considering the $79 model. I have the Ipad and don't mind reading on it, but there are times when it's just not easy to do. Like on the deck of my cruise ship earlier this year...
Having the Ipad I don't want to spend a lot, but $79 isn't unreasonable.
Not mistake. It was on purpose.
I am looking forward to the ads. It's only on the screen saver and a bar at the bottom of the main menu. Honestly, I am RARELY on my home menu and I am looking forward to something other than the boring screen savers that they have had.
I've had a change of heart on this matter. While I was FULLY AWARE of the difference in prices between the ad supported and the ad free versions, I thought I would be just fine with the ad supported items.
Again, I hate the boring screen savers that I am forced to look at and would prefer to see an ad for other great books or products that are similar to what I normally purchase on Amazon on my screen saver or at the bottom of the menue that I rarely ever see.
But then I saw this...
It's not just Kindle product related ads....
It's ads for CREDIT CARDS, MOVIES, CELL PHON COMPANIES, etc...
I was really hoping it would be more like product recommendations of books that I could read on my Kindle or recommended products based upon my order history. These are just any ad where they companies paid enough money to have an ad placed.
As a result, I canceled my $149 Kindle Toucgh 3G order and I upgraded to the $189 Kindle Touch 3G without ads version.
I'd rather pay $40 ONE TIME to avoid seeing credit card ads on my Kindle.
NOTE: I don't think the ads will rotate as shown in the image above. However, even if the ads were a single static image each time the menu loads, I simply don't want to see ads for credit card offers. Simple as that!
Geoff, I do agree that they should add the words "starting at..." to the sales pages!
Cliff, I wish I would have shown you my Kindle W/Special Offers this weekend.
As you can see by the image above, the ads are very unobtrusive. And you're right...the ads don't rotate as shown in the image. In addition to the small ad at the bottom of the home screen as shown, you get a full page ad when you turn the Kindle off.
Why do I love my Kindle with Special Offers? Because of the offers. Sure, there are credit card offers, AT&T ads and some others that I could care less about. But there are also tons of great ads that I have been able to take advantage of. For example:
$20 Amazon card for $10 (multiple times)
$5 off a $10 Amazon purchase (multiple times)
$5 in free Amazon MP3 downloads
Any Amazon MP3 Album for $0.99
Buy any Kindle best seller and get a free $10 Amazon credit
$10 off any video game at Amazon
$1 for a Kindle Book (have gotten this offer MANY times)
25% off a digital camera (got a great deal on a camera I was going to buy anyway)
$40 off a printer
20% off select laptops (even included a Macbook)
and many, many more.
I feel like I got a steal with my Kindle. I paid less than the people who don't get the offers, and I get so many great offers. I think it was a mistake for you to cancel your order.
Point well made!
I've just canceled my $189 version and changed it back to the $149 version. Those offers are exactly what I was hoping for. They should have those rotating in their images on the site...
Okay, so if I get those kinds of offers, i can deal witha few AT&T ads.
Thanks Jon!
© 2015 Created by Cliff Ravenscraft @GSPN.


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Every year around the middle of August I can tell summer isn't going to last much longer because the goldenrod is blooming. However, this year the goldenrod is starting to bloom and it's only early July. Today the weather is crisp and breezy and it feels like a September day. How strange. Are you noticing unusual weather where you live?
Mary |
Follow-Up Postings:
- Posted by tiffy_z5_6_can 5/6 (My Page) on Tue, Jul 7, 09 at 14:32
Definitely Mary. I have a garden tour coming up in August and some of the things that are normally in bloom at that time aren't going to make it until then. The Ditch Lilies are starting to bloom like crazy now and last year they were blooming in August along with the phlox Paniculatas. The weird thing here is that it has been much cooler at times and we have yet to see the sun for a full day since May so you would think that we would be late. But that isn't the case with some plants. Even Hostas are blooming early. A couple of evenings ago I took my lab Raven for a walk. I remarked to her that it smelled like an October day, somewhat melancholy-ish. I could have used a sweater, but it was a nice walk with the scent of salt in the air bringing me back 40+ years. I digress, but must admit I do this often when I'm happy with the moment and I know I was then. |
- Posted by not_a_contessa z6 S Central PA mtns (My Page) on Tue, Jul 7, 09 at 17:21
Ditto on the Ditch Lilies here Tiffy. If the Ironweed starts to bloom I am really going to freak out!! What makes it really strange is the teasels haven't bloomed yet, the butterfly weed is just starting to bloom, milkweed are full of buds, and that seems normal. Mary |
- Posted by littleonefb z5MA (My Page) on Tue, Jul 7, 09 at 19:27
It is a strange bloom season. MA, with cool temps and very little if any sun for the entire month of June. July starts and we have a couple of days with sun and then Bingo back to cool temps and pouring, pouring rain. Plants blooming? Not much in that department for sure and my WS seedlings have been stunted at the tiny, tiny stage. Course the store bought ones that my neighbor bought, look more dead than alive after all this rain and cool temps and no sun. So what makes the gardens strange this year? For the last couple of years have noticed my well established hostas, no names for them, just divisions of a neighbor's 25 years ago, have gotten their flower spikes earlier and earlier every year. Usually I don't see them till August and it takes till almost Thanksgiving to get the seed pods ripe. This year they where growing in June and starting to bloom before July 4th. Hydrangeas are starting to bloom before the 4th of July, not mid July on. Daffodils bloomed late, crocus where late, snow in summer where no blooms. Iris where early and didn't last as long. To top it off, the 4 legged critters are busier than usual. Exceptionally busy rabbits all over the place, very bold, actually digging nests and birthing offspring right in the middle of flower beds under perennial dianthus. Squirrels see to be collecting nuts early and they are on the ground early and the infestation of the neighborhood groundhogs seem to be very, very confused. They are either demolishing the gardens or just sitting outside a fenced in area and just doing nothing. And to make everything worse, the deer that we normally see only in the winter, feeding on my rhodies and my neighbor's spreading yews are having a feast on my hosta leaves, hosta stems and the daylilies. In 29 years, I have never had deer around in the summer and they've never touched anything except the rhodies and the neighbor's spreading yews and that's in the winter only with snow on the ground. Fran |
- Posted by nancy_drew 5 nw chgo burbs (My Page) on Sun, Jul 12, 09 at 15:22
What I find strange is that nothing is growing for me. Last time I winter sowed, everything was lush by now. I even had a few flowers to show off! This year I have very little growth... if any! Forget about blooms, that's just not gonna happen at this rate. I went out to water this morning, and really felt defeated. Like the typical Cubs fan, all I can do is wait until next year. Hopefully something... anything at all... will come back!! |
It has been a cooler, wetter summer here in SE Pa, too. For the most part, that's been a good thing in my garden. The roses are in their second flush of bloom, with a bit less disease, hardly any thrips, and fewer japanese beetles than years past. Although the bumblebees appeared later than usual, they are out in force now, mobbing the lavender. I saw a few honeybees last year; more this year. One of the best things about this summer is the abundance of fireflies. When I go for my evening walk, I pass yards and fields full of fireflies. As the dusk deepens into night and I walk past a field, it looks like the all the stars in the sky sent their children down to play tag in the field. Lois in PA |
Hi Mary, I am in the Kansas City metro area. We have had the coolest and wettest August since I have been gardening. I've even seen some trees that are casting off a few leaves this early, one is my Japanese Lilac. Everything here is blooming beautifully but our tomatoes are slow to ripen. It will be interesting to see if it turns hot again or we go right into fall. I had 4 rain barrels put in this summer and have hardly been able to use the water, it rains so much that Mother Nature is taking care of my many, many beds. For that I am grateful. One thing we cannot control is the weather. We could have a worse problem, drought! I always hurt for the people in California when they lose their homes to those wild fires every summer. Tina |
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Currently you can buy Paula's Choice products directly from this site and a few top-rated products from other brands are available via links to affiliate websites. We review and recommend products from other brands because we are dedicated to helping you find the best products for your skin, whether they're from Paula's Choice or other lines.
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Continuous Protection Sunblock Lotion SPF 85 contains stabilized avobenzone for sufficient UVA protection, but it has an SPF rating that, while accurate, may make you think that you can apply this once and be outdoors all day without a care. Of course, the "continuous protection" name doesn't help because every sunscreen must be reapplied if you're going to spend several hours in the sun.
Although this sunscreen contains some vitamin-based antioxidants and an anti-irritant, it also contains a preservative (methylisothiazolinone) that is not recommended for use in leave-on products due to its sensitizing potential (Source: Contact Dermatitis, October 2006, pages 227–229).
Without this problematic preservative, this could have been a good sunscreen for normal to oily skin. One more point: According to FDA regulations, Aveeno should not be labeling this "waterproof" because no sunscreen is impervious to water; you still must reapply every two hours after swimming or sweating. "Water-resistant" is the term that is permitted to be used to describe how sunscreens like this function on skin.
Please see more information as to why Aveeno's claims about this product being hypoallergenic are meaningless.
More Info:
If you're applying sunscreen liberally as directed, then SPF ratings above 50 are overkill. Keep in mind that the SPF number is not about the quality of the sunscreen, but the length of time it protects. In this case, there simply isn't that much daylight in any part of the world to warrant such extreme protection.
However, because most of us under-apply sunscreen, those with higher SPF ratings can be potentially helpful. For example, if you're applying half the recommended amount of a sunscreen rated SPF 100, you could still potentially be getting SPF 50, which is great.
However, there's another issue to consider, too: The high amount of active ingredients required to reach this kind of stratospheric SPF rating puts your skin at greater risk of irritation, even if you're not applying it liberally. For best results, when you need sun protection for a longer period of time, we urge you to stick with sunscreens rated SPF 25 to 45, and be sure to apply, and reapply, liberally each and every time.
The Hypoallergenic Claim "Hypoallergenic" is little more than a nonsense word meant to make products sound safer or somehow better for sensitive skin. There are no accepted testing methods, ingredient restrictions, regulations, guidelines, rules, or procedures of any kind, anywhere in the world, for determining whether or not a product qualifies as being hypoallergenic. A company can label their product "hypoallergenic" because there is no regulation that says they can't, no matter what proof they may point to—and what proof can they provide given there is no standard to measure against? Given that there are no regulations governing this supposed category, which was made up by the cosmetics industry, there are plenty of products labeled "hypoallergenic" that contain problematic ingredients and that could indeed trigger allergic reactions, even for those with no previous history of skin sensitivity. The word "hypoallergenic" gives you no reliable understanding of what you are or aren't putting on your skin (Sources: www.fda.gov; Clinical and Experimental Dermatology, May 2004, pages 325–327; and Ostomy and Wound Management, March 2003, pages 20–21).
Only Aveeno Continuous Protection Sunblock lotion with SPF 85 is formulated to provide superior, long-lasting protection against skin damage caused by the sun. This exclusive formula shield your skin from environmental damage. Oil free and noncomedogenic, it absorbs quickly for a sheer, lightweight finish, and is also hypoallergenic and waterproof.
Active : Avobenzone (3%), Homosalate (15%), Octisalate (5%), Octocrylene (10%), Oxybenzone (6%) Other: Water, Styrene Acrylates Copolymer, Silica, Diethylhexyl 2 6 Naphthalate, Beeswax (Apis Mellifera), Cyclopentasiloxane, Ethylhexl Glycerin, Glyceryl Stearate, PEG-100 Stearate, Acrylates/Dimethicone Copolymer, Acrylates/C10 30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, Fragrance, Chlorphenesin, Triethanolamine, Disodium EDTA, Dipotassium Glycyrrhizate (Licorice Root), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), BHT, Butylene, Glycol, Methylisothiazolinone, Diethylhexyl 2 6 Naphthalate, Ascorbyl Palmitate (Vitamin C), Glycine Soja (Soybean) Protein
Beginning with its first product in 1945, Soothing Bath Treatment, still sold today as part of the company's Baby line of products, Aveeno has prided itself on using natural ingredients. In some ways, they were a pioneer in the field, though for years the only natural ingredient of note in their products was oatmeal. Consumer products giant Johnson & Johnson purchased the brand in 1999, and wasted almost no time expanding it. A handful of bar cleansers and bath products were spun off into complete collections of facial-care products and an ever-growing number of body lotions and washes, not to mention shaving gels (Aveeno is one of the few companies whose shaving gels are truly fragrance-free).
Not surprisingly, many of the facial-care products from Aveeno are similar to those from Johnson & Johnson–owned Neutrogena. The differences typically lie in the natural ingredients each brand promotes. A cornerstone ingredient for Aveeno is soy, while Neutrogena has experimented (with varying degrees of success) with copper, retinol, salicylic acid, and melibiose. Overall, Neutrogena has a much larger and more comprehensive selection of products, though their formulas are also more problematic. Aveeno would do well to diversify a bit, or at least acknowledge that it takes more than a single star ingredient to provide superior skin-care products. As is, most of their anti-wrinkle products don't compete favorably with the more well-rounded options, not just from Neutrogena but also from Olay, Dove, and, in some respects, L'Oreal.
Getting back to the issue of soy, you'll see from the reviews it is indeed a helpful ingredient for skin—just not in the same multifaceted, does-everything manner Aveeno touts on each soy-containing product's package. A big proponent for Aveeno's use of soy is dermatologist Dr. Jeannette Graf. She is quoted on Aveeno's web site, stating that "It is now clear that the ability of natural soy to deliver multiple benefits to skin plays a lead role in high performance skin care." That sounds great but it doesn't explain why Aveeno ignores research on countless other antioxidants, skin-identical ingredients, or cell-communicating ingredients, all elements Dr. Graf uses in her separate, namesake product line. Interestingly, with Graf's own products relying on a blend of efficacious ingredients, including soy, it's a good question why she decided to endorse Aveeno's one-note soy products.
The bottom line is that when it comes to shopping for skin-care products at the drugstore, Aveeno, for all its talk of being a leader in "Active Naturals," doesn't have the all-inclusive product assortment needed to take the best possible care of your skin. However, paying attention to their top offerings is time (and money) well-spent!
For more information about Aveeno, owned by Johnson & Johnson, call (866) 428-3366 or visit www.aveeno.com.
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BUG has submitted election benchmarks on the Fifth Equal Treatment Directive to the federal political parties. The answers received so far can be found here (German).
BUG observes new legal and political initiatives of the EU anti-discrimination protection.
You can find information here on COM (2008) 426, the draft directive implementing the principle of equal treatment between persons irrespective of religion, disability age, or sexual orientation beyond employment, the so-called Fifth Equal Treatment Directive.
BUG has analysed which additions would have to be made to the General Equal Treatment Act (AGG), if the Ffith Equal Treatment Directive wer to be implemented. There are only a few.
You can find details here (available only in German):
Supplements to AGG after the adoption of the 5th Equal Treatment Directive
In this analysis by Alexander Klose for the DGB federal board, the need for improvements to the General Equal Treatment Act (AGG) is clarified.
Legal analysis on behalf of the German Federation of Trade Unions, written by Alexander Klose.
As the federal government is categorically opposed to the negotiation and adoption of the Fifth Equal Treatment Directive, several minor interpellations have been initiated in the Bundestag:
Minor interpellation of the Green parliamentary group on 23/12/2009
and the response of the federal government on 12/1/2010
Minor interpellation of the Green parliamentary group on 25/2/2010
and the response of the federal government on 12/3/2010
Further information (only available in German):
First reading in the Bundestag on 22/4/2010
Application of the Green Parliamentary Group on 3/24/2010
Statement by Amnesty International
Opinion of the German Trade Union Federation


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Routebeschrijving naar Pousada da Cachoeira
- Info
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- Tarieven
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- Kaart & Route
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- Recensies
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- Faciliteiten
Kaart & Route
How to get there: From Rio de Janeiro you take a bus to Angra dos Reis in Novo Rio the bus station ( Rodoviaria)
or you jump out in conceicao de jacarei its a town 40 min less by bus in direction to angra . It takes more or less 3 hours until the main port in angra . After that you take the ferry to Vila do Abraao (Ilha Grande) This will take about 1 hour and 30 minutes. There is a new port in conceiao de jacarei were you find more or less a boat every hour from 9 am until 6 pm a boat . From the main port in abraao you will walk 10 minutes to Rua do Bicao close to the end of the street you will find Pousada da Cachoeira.


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Below are the first 10 and last 10 pages of uncorrected machine-read text (when available) of this chapter, followed by the top 30 algorithmically extracted key phrases from the chapter as a whole.
Intended to provide our own search engines and external engines with highly rich, chapter-representative searchable text on the opening pages of each chapter.
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OCR for page 26
26 Shared Use of Railroad Infrastructure with Noncompliant Public Transit Rail Vehicles: A Practitioner's Guide
Thus, equivalent safety can be expressed by the mathematical relationship that includes the
chance of a hazard event, the measure of consequence, and the predetermined time period.
While the mathematics is straightforward, the availability of real world accident and incident
data may be limited. To demonstrate safety equivalence, a variety of operating and accident sce-
narios must be modeled and tested. Assumptions of consequences may not be based on histor-
ical data, and thus might be overly conservative or optimistic.
The benefit of a risk assessment methodology is that a repeatable procedure and reproducible
data is provided, ensuring objective scenario comparisons. However, the methodology also has
some critical shortcomings: (1) lack of actual data for a specific scenario; (2) assumptions regard-
ing consequences; and (3) limitations on the scenarios envisioned. A risk analysis template show-
ing the process is contained in Part IV after the business case template.
Underpinning the Case for Shared-Track
The fulfillment of safety and regulatory objectives is focused on the features and characteris-
tics of technology used to control the operation and provide the service. Most other institutional
concerns are addressed via legal agreements, financial arrangements, memoranda of understand-
ing or other official and formal commitments. But safety is a front line issue, where the rubber
meets the road. Here, shared-track projects are most vulnerable to rejection, delay, modification
or the addition of costly features and technology mandated by regulators. A risk analysis is a
component of the safety case. And the safety case is essential to support the business case.
It should be recognized that the choices in technology would impact the risk assessment,
which in turn affects the costs and operations cited in the business case, the freight operation,
FRA Waiver Petition content, and SSO approval. There are trade-offs to consider and decisions
should not be made in isolation. The approach to assessing the merits uses the tools described in
Chapter 4 "Shared-Track: A Handbook of Examples and Applications" to determine the choice.
· Business model--outlines participants and relationships.
· Business case--defines the fiduciary contributions cost/benefits of alternatives.
· Safety case--analyzes the relative safety of the alternatives, defines roles of FRA and SSO, and
the influence of the risk assessment.
One shortcoming of the risk analysis is that the theory and results are not fully understood or
appreciated by sanctioning authorities. The probabilistic aspect does not satisfactorily address a
nightmare scenario event. There is simply less comfort in calculating a one-in-a-billion chance
of an accident event every 10 years. Regulators can more easily understand that if an event occurs,
then passengers are protected.


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Greetings all,
A friend of mine recently acquired This pocket gun. From what I've read so far it's fairly old. Supposedly it' uses a S&W .32 short round. I'm wondering if that is correct and if modern ammo may damage the gun. Does anyone know of these revolvers, and what grain/load ammo is safe to shoot? Or should it just be a conversation piece?