text:
Reader comments are listed below. Comments are currently closed and new comments are no longer being accepted.
1.3 billion people are insulted by your lies. China will return to its RIGHTFUL place as RULER of the world. Never forget that.
Long live the CCP. Down withmthe imperialist running DOGS!!!!
As a smelly dark skinned Dalit I bow before your greatness. Now go take some of your meds.
Actually Ah___Q is a most likely a Japanese or Taiwanese troll. Probably a little kid.
yes, ok, obviously yo uare not Chinese, youa are a great joker!
Its clear people have not been reading the article, this is what it says.
Its a Republic with limited franchise. To be frank what is different from this type of government than what China has today, where less than 6% of the population are CPC members. It least they had more objective criteria own property, in the CPC today, its more vague.
This is not even the First Republic in Asia or by Chinese people. The first Republic established by the Chinese was the Lanfeng Republic (蘭芳共和國) in West Borneo, that lasted from 1777-1884, it predates the US Republic and French Republic.
They elected 12 leaders up until 1884. It was mentioned in the London times in the early 1800s.
Democracies are not unnatural. Had China had more overseas colonies or settlements like Lanfang, most of them would have ended up as democratic republics. Had China settled the New World instead of the Europeans, its most likely that those new settlements would have been democratic, and if they were large enough the idea would have spread to China itself.
Ok, let's come to reality and forget all about the parliamentary politics. I don't think any other party stands any chance in the congress in China.
Study closely on the grassroots democracy, say the village chief election. The governments play a guiding role in the elections to make sure that able men or women recognized by the villagers and trusted by the government shall win out. The governments set the election timetable, secure the order on the ballot box spot, and undertake all the financial expense concerning the election. Of course, the chiefs so elected are sometimes caught between the electors' interests and the patron's wills. They have to struggle a balance in their administration. THE GOVERNMENTS' PRESENCE NOTWITHSTANDING, THE VILLAGERS REALLY CONVENE AND VOTE.
Looking at the counterpart elections in the urban areas, things are totally different. The urban residents take no interests in the so-called residents' autonomy. Few of them participate the elections of their self-governance committees. You may say that the committees are just agents of the governments.
Another organisation should be specially mentioned here. It may be sort of rival to the urban residents' autonomy committees. It is the owners' committee, which is elected willingly by the owners of the residential area to manage their own houses and the subsidiaries according to the property law. However, this kind of organization, want of legal status from the law and recognition from the governments, is still fighting hard to survive on the way of self management.
Two comments. We in the west know so little about Asian history. We can name all the American Presidents, or British Kings, but can hardly name the person who succeeded Mao.
Second. Individual people are products of their times, not the other way around. If China had been ready for democracy somebody else would have replaced him. Just like there was a replacement for Lenin and Stalin and Mao and George Washington. The time and conditions were right for what happened in those places. Maybe that is why the US and Britian can't seem to ever change the Middle East by replacing this leader or other, Hummm?
JJ Rousseau and George Washington can solve all the problems in the world, it seems. Before 2008, Adam Smith might have been put into that mix, aswell.
Those chaos 100 years ago brought me to think about the current ones in the Middle East...
It has been the Western prosperity that convinced the rest of the world that there ought be useful values in the Western political system. And the West hasn't been shy bragging about it, fair and all in its own right.
Are those useful values applicable elsewhere? It depends on conditions they based on. Even if they were universal, they can't exist without conditions or circumstances.
Put too simple an answer has been costing lives, even applying thoughtful strategy would a real democratization process take longer than "designed". This is especially complex for countries from very long tradition of sophisticated struggle between powers.
Mr. Song was one of those young Chinese enthusiasts, a quality, and also a hope, that sets out for great tasks, but only for the start. Which ever way China went through since the last ~100 years, the current Chinese have came out much more mature in solving their problems: their pain, their knowledge, their recent experiences... all results from previous failures. Let's hope for their success in contributing to peace and wealth to the world.
I found this article to be very insightful. The writer did not take a clear political stance in this piece of work, which made it much more enjoyable.
I think in this world, only those who can speak Chinese realize the fundamental flaws of western democracy. Allow me to name one of them:
Suppose there are 3 groups of people in a society, A, B, C.
Do you think a politician elected by group A would work for group B and C? No, he will only work for group A. The same for politicians elected by B and C.
Therefore, the essence of modern western democracy is that people fight against each other.
In a wealthy country, this will not be an issue because government has a deep pocket. Thererfore western democracy always look suck economically in any country with lot of poor people, because the fight among people themselves will paralyze government, even in USA, let alone countries like India.
The chaos in middle east, in Thailand, in south Africa is inevitable under western democracy.
To the following stupid question
"if CCP is perfect system, why insecurity?"
One, no body say the system in China is perfect. The issue is you assume your system is the best avaliable system, because you know nothing other than your authoritarian media has told you.
I guess you have long forgot your system is capitalism.
None of this is true.
A message from happy Chinese people living under a western style democracy in Taiwan.
Furthermore, 6.4 wouldn't have happened if media had reported it like western authoritarian media handled the OWS.
OWS would be like Arab spring had "free" media covered it like they cover 6.4.
The way "free" media has covered China shows deep insecurity about western democracy.
Among scholars, even those diehard advocates of democracy, people have raised questions about western democracy. Of course, such opinions are suppressed by authoritarian media and will never get public attentions.
New conservatives,
You already have a nearly paralyzed government.
BTW, who bribed Chen Shuibian?
The government isn't paralyzed. The thing about openness is that disagreements within the government are public. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean those agreements don't happen in the CCP.
We also have socialized medicine.
China is a "socialist" country where people have to stop at an ATM before they go to an emergency room. Even Cuba which is poorer than China understands that free medical care is one of the non negotiable parts of having a socialist country.
Taiwan has a better safer richer society. As does Hong Kong... and Singapore...
basically Chinese people do better without the CCP.
You have a president whose supporting rate plunged overnight, you have a government that can't make any meaningful long term plan.
And the debt issue? How long will your social security system sustain?
You are living on what KMT built up before 1990s.
Openess? So laughable. Who are on top of food chain in your society? Why xie visited mainland?
Again, who bribed Cheng Shuibian?
You are clueless. You only want to know what your media wants you to know, that is the openess you talk about.
The social security system here has exactly the same problem that China does. Super low fertility.
Actually you need to bone up on your Taiwan history.
For example, the National Health insurance was started because the KMT feared that the DPP would use Universal health care as an electoral weapon, so the KMT made the NHI in 1995 to steal their thunder.
Which Xie are you referring to?
But you missed the point of my comment. You said that in a democracy the government only works for certain interest groups which is also the case in the Chinese system. At least in a democracy you can throw the bastards out on their asses. The Chen Shuibian case has less relevance because he's out of power. Were it still a one party state, the question would be more important.
But the CCP serves it's own interest groups too. Remember the Shifang protest where the city government told people that heavy metal poisoning wasn't real?
People in Taiwan can fish in the rivers here. We can breathe. The government still has lots of problems no doubt, but it still has to do right by the public.
But in general I get exasperated when mainlanders say "Chinese people can't handle democracy" when Taiwan does it just fine. (Unless you want to admit that Taiwanese people are not Chinese. No? Well, thought I'd ask)
Did I deny the problem in mainland?
Are people in "free" world aware that their government works for special interest group? In mainland, people did.
The NHI system in taiwan will pull Taiwan deep into debt, won't it?
That is an example that government can't make long term plan under western democracy : if KMT tried to plan scientifically, they would lose power to DPP.
Xie changting visited mainland, why? You have no clue. That is crack in the core of DPP.
Openess? Unless Your media put the questions and answers on your table, what else do you know? Freedom? Go try to dig who bribed cheng shuibian, see what you get.
You don't care who bribed cheng because your media doesn't care. Get it?
Oh yes, people in the free world know that the government works for interest groups. And if you don't like those interest groups, vote for the other guy.
Chinese people can't vote for the other guy.
As for Xie Changting, the position of the DPP is that Taiwan should be independent not that Taiwanese people should never go to China.
One of the biggest signals that the American Revolution was set in stone was when Americans and Brits started travelling back and forth in large numbers.
He can go there to see a museum or do it to orchestrate a Chinese invasion, it doesn't matter. Over a million Taiwanese people live and work in China already, no one's freaked out about it yet.
The hope for Taiwan is it becomes like Canada. Sharing a language, culture, heritage and most of it's trade with a larger neighbor but undeniably separate.
And imagine there are 66 million people in taiwan not 22 million.
What would Taiwan be like, Thailand?
If they know their government works for special interest group, how can the call their system democracy?
Well technically both Taiwan and the US are Republics not actual democracies.
But the idea is that by allowing opposition to the government and forcing transparency, corruption will be minimized. It's when governments can't be questioned or removed that really bad things start to happen.
Did you ever hear that a politician exposed the corruption of another politician from opposite party?
You trust your media too much.
When you vote a politician, ask him whose money he will cut so he will have money for you? Do you think he will dare to cut the money for those who donate for his political campaign.
If you and I are opposite politicians, if you cut the money for my backers, I will cut yours. So the result is we won't hurt each other interest. What will we do? We may cut education fund of voter's children and give the money to you as your pensions, etc.
Or if we both from gaoxiong, we will veto the project for taibei. Of course, politicians from taibei will try to cut fund for gaoxiong.
What about the rich ans big syndicates? They are safe.
Sure, you can vote, just another round of fight among ordinary people, nothing will change much.
The rich and big syndicates are safe of course.
But they're even safer in China.
In the Shifang incident, the government actively told the people that copper and molybdenum poisoning wasn't real so that they wouldn't object to a chemical plant.
But please enlighten me how the CCP stands up for the little people over rich urban interests and corporations.
In last 20 years, 400 million people in mainland have been urbanized? Where did the money come from?
Bank of China made over 100 billion profits each year, who are entitled to the profits?
Individually, no mainlanders are the owners of SOE or lands, together they are the owners, and they benefit from the profits from their ownership, even after serious corruption.
The money came from companies who wanted an urban work force to build stuff for the rest of the world.
In practice, SOE's and land is private. Yes, SOE's have to kick back some money to the government but they run like any other large corporation and have the same amount of respect for a basic citizen which is none.
Land is also effectively private, regardless of the rhetoric, with one important exception. If that SOE or city government wants to make a quick buck, they can demand your land "for the public good" pay you way below the market rate for it, sell it on for profit, and you can't do anything because you technically never owned it in the first place. That's not "corruption." It's actually legal.
Great system.
Below market rate? Who told you that? Some big mouth journalists?
Why is a piece of land worth something?
Because the infrastructure.
From where does government get money to build infrastructure?
Will you invest in a land in gobi desert?
Haha, Ztoa, who bribed Xi, Wen, Hu, Wang, Jiang, and Zhang, along with the rest of the CCP leadership, both high and low?? By the way, I speak chinese, and most chinese want democracy, unless they're in the CCP living off the bribes they get from a monopoly of goverment and business, like Wen's jewelry business, which you probably never heard of from CCTV.
How much money under their names?
According to Western standard, most of them are not even classified as corruption.
Like some relatives got fat contracts, their stock holdings appreciated exponentially. Prove why those are corruption.
I perfectly everybody should adopt the Chinese system to the letter. Here are things that I would to do, with haste
1) Nationalize all property, including those held by Chinese citizens in Western countries
2) Don't allow foreign investment in strategic industries, mining, agriculture
3) Strip immigrants of their citizenship
4) Start writing bad things about China's evil authoritarian system in school books compared to the great authoritarian system of the US
5) Pay people to go onto Chinese language websites and say bad things about China
6) Put firewalls on all internet traffic like they do in China
7) Starting instituting economics sanctions for the most absurd hings
8) Japan will be a primitive, agricultural society, as the US strips it of all it assets. Ditto with Germany.
9) There will be riots where Chinese shops are burnt and looted when the US government gets upset at China for something.
10) The world GDP will be half of what is is today as people listen to China in the last 60 years, and put restrictions on movement of capital.
The Chinese system is good, only because China is the one of the few countries applying it, once everyone adopts the Chinese system, with its more mercantalist policies, restrictions on capital, everyone will be poorer. Its great in isolation, but horrible if applied globally.
You have insulted 1.3 billion Chinese people with your lies. Nobody can deny that Taiwan was, is, and aoways will be an indivisible part of the China. You dog.
In the 1600's the Ming dynasty fought the Dutch over Peng hu and won. They then told the Dutch they could settle on Taiwan as that was not Chinese territory and the inhabitants were not Chinese.
The Dutch imported Chinese labor from Fujian and they gradually displaced the indigenous people.
The island doesn't start to be part of China until Zheng Chenggong invades in 1661.
The island is then lost to China in 1895 when it goes to the Japanese.
The Japanese hand the island back to the REPUBLIC OF CHINA.
The Republic of China still has it.
So while you can make a very good case that the island is Chinese (though only for the last 400 years not "always"), it does not belong to the People's Republic of China.
If the PRC wants to adopt the 1946 ROC constitution and change it's name to 中華民囯 then they would have a very strong claim on the island.
As it is, the island is legally part of the ROC not the PRC and the ROC still has it.
Those who think Democracy is not appropriate for China may just come from the CCP, so you needn't argue with them;They will never believe you. In other words, they believe Democracy is good for China, but to themselves Democracy will be a catastrophe.
You are come from Taiwan?
Didn't we just have a bunch of whiners on an economist article about Taiwan awhile ago? Blame every miserable aspect of their life on Ma (can't find good job, property too expensive). Compare to the Chinese nationalist cheering on their country, I am not even sure who's happier.
This is a nice historical piece. Song Jiaoren is usually under-appreciated, in my view, and it's nice to see him in print.
That said, underlying it is a Western view of China that has not basically changed since the 1950's: that China was somehow 'lost' to the forces of progress and freedom, and that if only event X had or hadn't happened differently, China would now be a flourishing democracy with no whiff of authoritarian government. This idea is pie-in-the-sky Pollyanna BS.
Adopting 'democracy' ? What democracy are you talking about?. Please look at those shameless hypocritic predators that prey on China in the early part of 20th century. Weren't they 'democracies'? China (or any developing countries) must find her own way to better the life of people. The Chinese people must have learnt a lesson and reach a conclusion after the May 4th 1919. Of course Song did not die in vain. it was the collective heavy price of learning and experimenting for the Chinese people.
The kind of democracy they have in Taiwan. You know, with Chinese people.
New Conservative, thanks for your rebuttals to Zen and Leung. They are only 50 cent army bloggers, you know. We need not heed their propaganda.
i see nothing good about democracy in Taiwan. What I see is that Taiwan is falling economically and socially. Name some benefits you got please.
it is rude to label others with different ideas.
Per capita GDP of China 8,387 $
Per capita GDP of Taiwan 37,716 $
(World Bank)
Life expectancy China 73.47 years
Life expectancy Taiwan 79.35 years
(CIA World Factbook)
Corruption index China 39
Corruption index Taiwan 61
(Transparency International)
Basically, Taiwan is 4 times richer, lives 5 years longer, and is half as corrupt.
But please explain to me how Taiwan has failed economically and socially in light of these statistics.
Taiwan made no progress in the past some 10 years.
Some provinces in China have already surpassed Taiwan in terms of economy and social progress. For example, life expectancy in Shanghai is already 81 years old.
What is the fact book of Taiwan 10 years ago? Any difference?
you are standing on a sinking boat laughing at a rocket
Yeah, ten years ago life expectancy was 76 years
Steady rise.
Same thing with GDP per capita
Steady rise.
Now, I could do what you did for Shanghai and just take the graphs for Taipei and get even larger numbers. (80.18 for men 85.25 for women) After all, rural people don't matter right?
But you don't even know what your own statistics mean. The life expectancy of Shanghai's registered residents in 2010 reached 82.13 years (79.82 for men and 84.44 for women)
In the same article, "About 9 million out of the 23 million residents of Shanghai, or more than 39%, are long-term migrants, triple the 3 million in 2000."
Long term migrants are not registered residents especially the poor ones. So if they were included the actual life expectancy of Shanghai would drop. Taiwan statistics, because the National Health insurance has 98% of the people registered, include everyone.
i agree with you. mainland still has a long way to go in all areas.
Taiwan used to be a lot better than the mainland in the 1980s. One of 4 asian small dragons if i recalled correctly. But with growth of merely 1.05% this year, where is the momentum of Taiwan? And what benefit democracy brings to Taiwan?
The boost of Taiwan economy didn't happen under democracy.
And were you unhappy in Chengdu when you had no right to vote?
Taiwan was doing a lot better in the 1990's as well as the 80's and the 00's. There've been three downturns one in 1997 one in 2001, and one in 2008.
Pushing it back ten years may comfort you in the fiction that all of Taiwan's growth happened under martial law, but it's not in any way true.
The thing is when China gets close to Taiwan's level of development it will slow down as well. You see 9% growth in China now and assume that it will continue as the country gets richer when evidence from EVERY SINGLE OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET shows that the richer you are the slower you grow.
The slow growth this year is a reflection that Taiwan's trade partners are depressed.
I'm generally not unhappy about not voting in a country where I'm not a citizen.
that's why i don't think it is time for China to adopt democracy at this stage of development.
you seem to be satisfied with Taiwan's development. but without support of the mainland, the figure will be minus.
the richer, the slower, so the japanese shall be happy for the past 10 years.
so the right of vote is not a must in your life. you can still live without it.
In most democracies, you don't vote all the time. American elections are every 2 years. Taiwan's are every 4. India does a 5 year system.
Without Taiwan's support, the mainland would be minus. In the 80's, over half of China's foreign investment came Taiwan and Hong Kong.
You missed his point. Shanghai is in many respects better than Taiwan and many other western countries. His point is China is developing fast and catching up with Taiwan, Shanghai is a good example of that. I lived and worked in Shanghai and I visited Taiwan, I can tell you Shanghai is modern, vibrant, cosmopolitan city with a booming economy. Taiwan is a lovely country but has no booming economy anymore as far as i know.
Didn't I just put in statistics that show Taiwan's economy, as measured by the income of its citizens is still miles ahead of China's?
You have a mainland Chinese person's biases which try to explain away the fact that Taiwan is wealthier, safer, and healthier than the mainland.
Taiwan has 23 million not 40 million.
Also, the fact that Taiwan is didn't have to go through the Mao years is part of the point. They have a better government than you and that little bit is exhibit A, B, and C.
It's why China likes to compare itself to the US or India, because it can make some favorable comparisons. Unfortunately, when compared to the other 3 governments in the Sinosphere (Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong) the CCP has ran the worst government in China.
As for if China is ready for democracy. Taiwan's income was 7,987$ a person when martial law was lifted in 1987. China's already above that.
The CCP likes topresent itself as the thin line between order and chaos but the truth is that Chinese people can function just fine in the absence of a one party state.
"Also, the fact that Taiwan is didn't have to go through the Mao years is part of the point. They have a better government than you and that little bit is exhibit A, B, and C."
Taiwan wasn't a democracy during Mao years, once again your arguments are fallacious.
"The CCP likes topresent itself as the thin line between order and chaos but the truth is that Chinese people can function just fine in the absence of a one party state."
In fact, just fine is not good enough for Chinese nationalists. My family is wealthy just fine in Thailand. Although Thailand is an ineffective country that is not going to go anywhere in a hurry.
What Chinese nationalists want is a China super power that will dominate this planet in every aspect of human endeavours. Will this be achieved with a government that is like Taiwan or like China, you figure it out. My bet is on China.
"The thing is when China gets close to Taiwan's level of development it will slow down as well. You see 9% growth in China now and assume that it will continue as the country gets richer when evidence from EVERY SINGLE OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET shows that the richer you are the slower you grow."
Wait so its convenient for you to compare social benefits and social indicators between China and Taiwan at this point in time. But when there is something China is actually better at you just say its at the stage of economic development. Biased much?
Other developing countries at the same stage of development is surely not growing as fast. Why don't you do a comparison on that?
"It's why China likes to compare itself to the US or India, because it can make some favorable comparisons. Unfortunately, when compared to the other 3 governments in the Sinosphere (Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong) the CCP has ran the worst government in China."
Hong Kong isn't a democracy.
Singapore is often branded as authoritarian. But has more democratic institutions than Hong Kong. Hong Kong does not have a parliament, Singapore does.
Both of these governments are better than Taiwan.
"Now, I could do what you did for Shanghai and just take the graphs for Taipei and get even larger numbers. (80.18 for men 85.25 for women) After all, rural people don't matter right?"
In fact you certainly have not considered rural people in your comparison between China and Taiwan. China has far more rural people than Taiwan, not to mention that its terrain are far more rugged and many areas are far more isolated. Worse still China have to deal with the fact that its rural population still subsist on very small plots of land (0.65 hectares/ 1.6 acres on average). With this in mind, social development will have a very different characteristic to a largely urbanized Taiwan.
White people on the other hand cheated by colonizing 4 continents (N. and S. America, parts of Africa and Australia) and taking over their farm land. If they have not done so, masses of white peasants would have starved and gone the way of the Irish Potato Famine where 30% of the populations starved to death.
A socially just world would be one where there are 300 million Chinese populating North America and proportionally equivalent amount populating other continents. But alas, racist governments in 'western countries' continue to accept white immigrants in large number while trying to restrict Asians from immigrating.
Taiwan was still under the brutal Japanese rule during Song's era.
Wow. Yet another lengthy piece on China, and on a gentleman died a century ago. There are so many what-if's in China's history: what if Yuan were another Washington, what if Song were not killed, what if Chiang Kai-shek were not kidnapped in Xian, and what if Mao's son were not killed in Korea? :-)
We can speculate all we want, but there is no way to prove it. China had never settled anything by popular votes prior to Song's death. It is naive to believe one election would have changed the whole system.
It's natural to idolize Mr Song, but many figures in Chinese history didn't turn out to be what they were supposed to be. Just look at Wang Jingwei, another revolutionary who was arguably more famous and capable than Song.
For at least two reasons we Chinese don't need the U.S. style democracy:
Talking about democracy seems like talking about the "sex right" with adolescents. We are more interested in development at hand, and we are so shy that don't need the so called "adults" to tell us how to have "sex", and we think their kindhearted concerns is rude, especially the "adults" are our neighbors.
Even the Americans don't believe that their political system, which was built 300 years ago,is ideal and perfectly serving your needs, especially the need of economic development, so why can't China find a better system? We have been keep reforming in the past 35 years, and many problems you pointed out have been solved in the process of developing.
As a matter of fact, it is the western world who are worrying about how to get out of economic marsh, which was doomed to be dazed under their current and "perfect" political system.
This is hilarious. This entire thread is post after post by mainlanders putting their fingers in their ears and saying that Chinese people shouldn't have democracy.
Taiwan has democracy. They are richer than you. They are healthier than you. They are safer than you. They can vote in elections.
Basically, it's like China except way better. Because they live in a pluralistic democracy.
But do go on...
So why do millions of Chinese go abroad to the West? Did you hear much from them about the greatness of the Chinese system?
Jinping Xi's sister An'an Xi (a.k.a. Qiaoqiao Qi?) lives in Canada, I believe, not to mention his daughter Mingze, who is studying under a pseudonym at that reactionary University called Harvard. China Agricultural University is a much better place than Harvard to learn about the Revolutionary Spirit of Lei Feng. Perhaps both Guagua Bo and Mingze Xi should go back to China and follow the footsteps of their glorious grandfathers, the Great Chinese Revolutionaries, and not of their corrupt princeling fathers to help fulfill the dreams of the billions of poor peasants and workers in China. The Hukuo-Proletariat prospiring under the beneviolent goadance and coercive care of the CPC without Maoist characteristics (now that Bo and his red songs are purged) but with scientific opening-up and reform outlook emancipating the mind, moving boldly ahead where no country has gone before, come hell or high water, smog or sandstorms.
Yeah, that's why I said:
"The Party's ideological education and especially the education of princelings must not take place at reactionary Universities such as Harvard, Stanford or Oxford. Instead, lofty ideals and belief must take as the core content the education of the whole party in steadfastly and unflinchingly adhering to Marxism with Chinese characteristics"
let it be known that as a chinese i do not agree with this view, or several points of view. I am very concerned with democracy, or to define it a little bit, an elected government by the people. Without it, the so called development would be for no good purpose other than accumulated wealth and power by the ruler elite.
I also appreciate the concern from the west. Although there may be ulterior motives, but I acknowledge that many people in the west genuinely care about the structure of China's government, both for the Chinese people but for their own sake, because a powerful authoritarian Chinese government would be a threat to the world.
also, nobody mentioned any "perfect" system. the great advantage of the demacratic system noted by all is its self correction ability. on the contrary, china's system in its thousand years history, lacked this and underwent a cycle of order to chaos.
In some degree it is the people who aren't ready for democracy, rather than the government alone.
In my family, I often discuss with my parents about what China will be under democracy, and none of my family is elite. You know what? None of us envy the illusion of being democratic, for none of us think it can solve the problems we are concerning now, on the contrary, we are more afraid that it will curb the development, which benefit us a lot in about the past decade since I was born, making China spurred up from a country as poor as Africa into a country nearly as proud as we were in Tang dynasty.
You know what? When I was 2 years old, my family is too poor to buy milk ponder for me, but now we can nearly afford anything we need. That is what we care most NOW, namely to get the right rewards by hardworking. Democracy? At least I and my family don't care at the time.
Besides, do you Chinese in Taiwan have had democracy from 1950s to 1970s? I think you were busy developing under the lead of Mr Jiang.
P.S. It's futile for "adults" to talk about "sex"with "adolescents", because it will pull them away, for the manner more than for the contents.
P.S. It's futile for "adults" to talk about "sex"with "adolescents", because it will pull them away, for the manner more than for the contents.
Do you even live in Taiwan?
I am a local Taiwanese, and I have serious concern for our so-called democracy. I mean, just look at our presidents: the present bumbling and the former now in jail for money-laundering.
I appreciate our democracy, but I have to concede that it is not prefect. And I think China is doing pretty well without democracy these days. They have their problems, but let's not presume that democracy is the cure.
btw, if you think Taiwan is "richer" than China, you are seriuosly mistaken. And what does "healthier" even mean?
I've lived in Taiwan for over three years. I've also lived in China.
I never said democracy will cure China but I really get irked by the myth that somehow culturally Chinese people can't function under a democracy when they obviously can.
Healthier means just what I say. You get much better medical care in Taiwan and it's a lot less polluted.
"You get much better medical care in Taiwan and it's a lot less polluted."
And how would that be achieved with democracy in China? You try to be clever by pointing out that Taiwan has medical care and is less polluted. But how would democracy allow this to occur?
The fact is that if China was as wealthy as a whole as Taiwan, they two will be less polluted and has more fiscal reserves for welfare. Neither of this is possible at China's current stage of economic development regardless whether democracy exists or not.
The only arguments you have is that democracy will lead to more prosperity, and this is going to be debunked as China continue to grow in power.
In today's global economy, nobody wants China to have western democracy or whatever. Just keep what you think it is best for yourselves and make trillions for your princelings.
Let's not get ourselves, the assassination is not a one off event. Had Song lived though this one he would have been killed by another. the only way Song would have lived is if the monarchists never acted to eliminate the opposition, which is extremely unlikely in post revolution China.
The gist of the problem is urbanization level and literacy level in the 1910s is way too low to support a functional civil society let alone a democracy. People like Song and Sun are well meaning people. But they are a tiny foreign educated elite sitting above a massive peasant class. While they try to drag the (tiny) urban middle class into a Western system, the vast population in the country side don't know any better. In this situation, power defaults back to the military.
"they are a tiny foreign educated elite sitting above a massive peasant class"
Isn't this exactly what you have in Indonesia right now? While not perfect and certainly requiring the support of the military, it is still a democracy and appears stable despite the lack of education among the peasant electorate.
Comparing present day Indonesia with 1910 China is a bit extreme. Indonesia has 93% literacy rate compared to 20% in China at the time.
Its not a Western educated elite, but property owning men who had a primary education (10%)
Western democratic systems have their own inherited problems
1. elections only occur every few years which implies that some wronged policy has to remain unsolved until the next president comes to office;
2. with two or multiparty taking turns in power, there are certainly a great number of people who feel disappointed over each general election;
3. There is a low rate of voters who turn out to cast their votes. With no political orientation towards any group that is to make a cabinet, many citizens in the western countries are declined to register;
4. Some electoral systems allow political parties of extreme views to gain influences or gain political power as part of a government to the detriment of the majority of the nation and great majority of the public;
5. In some Western democracies, the electoral systems do not provide any comfort that no evil regimes will result; Western democracy never guarantees most people's attitudes are reflected by the elected representatives and government policies;
Your words are rather ambiguous (inherited problems, wronged policy has to remain unsolved, many citizens in western countries are declined to register, etc.). Are you trying to be sarcastic?
There is one nation Australia among the very few countries in the world that voting is enforced and yet less than 90 percent participation is the norm. Many qualified voters do not register to vote or if registered just pay a small fine to stay away from voting. In other Western democracies, voter turn out rate is rather much lower than this. In the 90's, just about 50 percent of all US voters bothered to cast their vote for the presidency.
Germany had the western electoral scheme in function that allowed the Nazi Party to be the largest party in the German parliament after 1932 election and Hitler was invited to form a coalition government under the German constitution.
The wronged policy taken by Mr. Bush administration dyed Mr. Obama' hair in the latter's first term in office, and who on earth knows how long it will take for Mr. Obama to bring the US back on track in front of the financial cliff.
Don't know where your going with this exactly but it sounds like you would prefer an authoritarian rule?
Song against Sun? All these conspiracy speculations about Mr. Song's killing, may be we need a Warren Commission of sorts to sort things out.
But this is a very well written article about Song and China at that time IMO.
It may invite mockery, ridicule or disdainful posts about roads toward Chinese democracy, but guess what, a socialism of Chinese characteristics is emerging under the stewardship of CCP that is proving to be the best bet yet for lasting democracy in China.
What about Taiwan?
You know, the place that's wealthier, safer, better educated, freer and healthier than the mainland.
It seems to me that an actual multi party democracy is the "best bet" for lasting democracy in China.
I suppose now we need an article on Taiwan's Long Road to Democracy, which did not arrive until the late 1980's.
Of course it didn't. But they at least acknowledged that multi party democracy was the destination. The constitution was democratic in 1946, and authoritarianism came via suspending it. That made it simple to have democracy simply by ending martial law and retracting "emergency measures."
I'm hopeful that the CCP will go the same way, but they don't have an actual democratic constitution like the ROC does so it'll be more difficult.
The point of the original constitution is very interesting, and I think you are rightto push back against the ridiculous idea that the Chinese people are somehow congenitally incapable of Democracy.
However I also think it is important to acknowledge the transitions that occurred in every stable Democracy that I know of. The pattern seems to be that they became relatively prosperous before they became democratic. It has not been an easy transition for anyone.
"The ridiculous idea that the Chinese people are somehow congenitally incapable of Democracy" is unfortunately the prevailing view on this thread.
The problem with this view is that Taiwan disproves by existing.
(Well, mainland people could say Taiwanese people are not Chinese and thus don't count, but I don't see that happening.)
Why do you keep on insisting that the ROC was the first Democracy established by Chinese people, when everyone who has a knowledge of obscure facts knows the first democratic Republic established by Chinese people was the Lanfang Republic. They elected 12 leaders in their 111 year history.
have you ever been to the Mainland? Why people around me who ever visited Taiwan are largely dissapointed? Why a taiwanese would rather run a teahouse in my neighborhood than go back to the island?
anything good about Democracy? Why Shuibian went to jail right after stepping out of office? When you voted for him, did you expect him to end up like this?
Yes, I lived in Chengdu for a year and had a wonderful time. Loved the food and the people.
The reason people are disappointed is because Taiwan is a great place to live but not much fun to visit. There's nothing much to see. Once you've been to the National Palace Museum and some of the various national parks, you've really done everything. You're confusing the lack of good tourism with a poor quality of life.
As for the million or so Taiwanese people in China, Taiwan is a mature economy that's already been through it's rapid growth phase.
China has not finished developing yet so there's more growth potential and more room for new businesses to expand.
It's the same reason that Chinese people go live in Zambia to operate a coal mine. They moved because they saw an economic opportunity but they aren't saying that Zambia is better than China.
As for Chen, if we play the disgraced leaders game, I can bring up Bo Xilai, but in any case and in any system some of the leaders are going to be corrupt. Chen Shuibian was dealt with by the courts and everyone strengthens corruption laws and moves on.
The thing about open societies are they don't actually increase corruption, but they do make it more visible because people are allowed to talk about it openly and the press is free to investigate and question government officials.
But my real question is "How would your life have been wor
I didn't say the ROC was the first, just that it's a functioning Chinese democracy right now.
Thanks for bringing up the Lanfang Republic because I didn't know about.
good to reason with you. a few points
People come to Zambia to make some money, they will be back anyway. But taiwanese chooses to stay in the mainland. It makes no sense if you compare Zambia with mainland.
People are disappointed not because Taiwan is no fun but the big contrast between the real Taiwan and the expectation.
Taipei is believed to be like Tokyo or London as the first class city since Taiwan is alledged a lot more economically developed. But the real Taipei, I think you know better. However, I have to admit Taiwanese are nice people and the food is good.
Talking about disgraced leader, my question is did you expect him to end up in jail when you voted for him. If you did, why you voted for him? if you didn't, why this guy got elected twice?
Bo Xilai got wiped out by the party. different system.
Democracy only works when economy reaches a certain level, not in the developing stage. Maybe taiwan already reaches that level. But your economy stops.
what is your real question then?
Tokyo or London are as disappointing as Taipei. Pretty much any first class city the only thing to do there is spend money doing expensive things after you've seen all the tourist stuff.
Also, it's a bad place for Chinese people to go since the differences are all things that you have to be here a long time to appreciate. (For example, I once dropped my wallet stepping out of a taxi at 1:30 AM. half an hour later there was knock at my door and it was a who'd found it, read the address off my ID and returned it with all of the money inside. That does not happen in China.)
Chinese people going to Taiwan are like Americans who go Canada, don't expect a huge difference.
My real question (sorry for not finishing) is how would your life have been worse had you been born in Taiwan?
No,Tokyo is a lot better.
Where did you lose your wallet? you should consider yourself extremely lucky wherever your story happens.
20 years ago, Taiwanese came to mainland bragging about how developed Taiwan is. This is where big expectation comes.
If i were ever born in Taiwan, i do have no idea how my life would be. can you guarantee my life can be a lot better? If you do, what is your ground?
And i am begging for your answer to my question about how he got elected.
elected the first time or reelected?
The first time was because the KMT vote was split between the KMT candidate and a formerly KMT candidate running as a third party. Nothing really spectacular about it. The next time he won a narrow reelection bid. And no I didn't vote for him, but even the opposition didn't expect him to go to jail.
I'm guessing you're in your early twenties so you're part of the first generation of Chinese people that wasn't automatically born at a disadvantage. But here's how your life would be better. 1) you'd be richer. See the GDP per capita. 2) You would have really good health insurance. It's kind of a travesty that the white terror, capitalist, feudal landlord side of the Civil war has socialized medicine while the "Communists" don't. 3) You could look at the entire internet not just most of it. There are others.
But that wasn't my question.
You made a claim that China was "better" so I'm asking you how your life would be worse. Because I can guarantee you it would at least be equal, if not better.
i am not sure what you are talking about regarding a better life. that's your concept, not mine.
1. getting richer. mainland is working on it.
2. good helath insurance. Even US doesn't have it. taiwan can do it because it is a small island.
3. Internet. i agree it is not convenient. but it will not kill me.
So having free internet access will make my life better? India has it. Would you like to live in India?
i never said the mainland is better. But it has a better hope. taiwanese are too happy about democracy you have. 20 years ago, taiwan economy was strong, taiwanese never mentioned about democracy but bragged about how rich they were. Now, they only have democracy to brag about. India also has that.
"Tokyo or London are as disappointing as Taipei. Pretty much any first class city the only thing to do there is spend money doing expensive things after you've seen all the tourist stuff."
Well this just goes to show the claim that Taiwan holds the 'real Chinese' heritage that was lost in Mainland China is a load of bull. The historic arts, the architectures that are found in abundance in China are only present in smattering in all overseas Chinese community, Taiwan included. What is Taiwan going to have left once China surpasses it?
I should clarify, Taiwan still has Chinese folk religion.
In China, the temples and such are like old relatives in a nursing home. People visit them out of a sense of obligation and history but they aren't seen as a part of the current living culture.
In Taiwan, they have thousands of temples and keep building more. It's a much more vital and vibrant part of the culture. As a foreigner, my ability to appreciate traditional Chinese stuff is limited.
That said, I do say Taiwan is better place to live than to visit. And if making the choice about where to go on a trip Taiwan vs. China is like Oregon vs. the rest of the United States.
@lynnwing in reply to New Conservative Dec 26th, 03:27
'No,Tokyo is a lot better.'
No, lynnwing,
but sure, Japan tops as far as master-slave relation with the us boss is concerned.
Whatever. Every single problem of China is the fault of Japan.
(I just added 50 cent to my account).
You forgot "racist Bamars" LOL
(I'm not getting 50 Kyats for this)
Nobody cares about you irrelevant Bamar expect for the ethnic minorities whom you are murdering and their sympathizers. You also don't have "dozens of people following you around" as you love to belief. As far as I can tell I am the only person reading some of your older posts because they tend to be more honest and sheds more light on you as a person. I, being interested in anthropology, find you fascinating as an extremely delusional case study. Certainly no other blames you disgusting Bamar for their problems, which is a refreshing change from what you love to do.
BTW it's funny because you claim to "not belong to the Bamar tribe" and yet is extremely obsessed with the genetic makeup of the Burmese population and with promoting your own genetics in that population.
Dozens of ONE-COMMENT-WU-MAO-DANGS following me around.
You just proved it!
Actually just one person who finds your delusions, arrogance, and hypocrisy extremely amusing and so I occasionally read your posts.
Nobody takes you seriously and nobody is "following you around." But hey if you like to believe that I am multiple people to try to inflate your ego with more delusions then go for it.
You just proved, again, that you are extremely delusional BTW.
people from the west should not take this seriously. ask yourself a few questions before making the judgement and comment. how much do you know about China and its history and culture? how many stories do you know about China's democracy? sure, democracy is good. but for a country with a large proportion of people who are not literate? it might be more difficult than you thought. people criticize Deng for Tiananmen Massacre. but do you know, that the Chinese are 'selfish' and 'vicious'(no offense, just continue reading and you'll know why). many 'students' just wanted to use the opportunity to form a new government. and the communist party didn't want to lose the control (inviting an another party in or introducing democracy) in the case that a new party or government would be even more vicious on the people.
FAIR GAMES ARE DESIGNED FOR FAIR PLAYERS. it's the same principle when it comes to democracy issues. do you know that everybody is complaining about the government, but everyone is thinking about how to get into it. thousands of people always compete for one job in the government. 'democracy' is just a tool that Chinese would use to introduce a more devious ruling power instead of the current one.
I agree.
As I have said a number of times:
It's all C's in China!
The Cunning Confusion Capitalistic Communist Chinese regime rules by Coercion, Control, Corruption and Cheating.
Consumption and Cash is the Crown and Content of everything and the Climax and Culmination of Civilization and Culture.
Who cares about the D's:
Dumb Democratic Dissidents Demonstrating and causing Disturbances? Down with Dogs, Dalai, Dissent, Dylan and Dubious Democracy!
So C's beat the D's clearly (Confuscius beats Dao(Tao)! but what about Deng, Dong-Feng 21D's and Dimsum?
Chiang Ching-kuo and Deng Xiaoping were classmates in their young age. They became heads of ROC and PRC in their last time (almost the same time). Chiang gave Taiwan Democracy; Deng gave Beijing Carnage!
Spoken like a true comrade, Mr. Gao. So you and your fellow 'chinese' are all too selfish and illiterate for democracy? How convenient for the CCP. Really, the only selfish ones are the CCP bureaucrats, who line their pockets with bribes off the hardworking and moraled masses. If the CCP got out of the way and let China's best & brightest take over, then we'd see how great China truly could be. Instead the CCP has left us a corrupted, polluted, hopeless society, with everyone in the know moving their assets abroad and applying for foreign visas, including Mr. Xi's daughter.
don't be naively optimistic. it's a cultural and historical issue. it has nothing to do with any one or any ruling power in the country. there wouldn't be any difference without the CCP. 'the CCP bureaucrats' are made of common civilians!
many fancy words. no practical thoughts
Jon. maybe because you are well educated. so you can hardly understand what i'm talking about. have you ever been to China before? have you been called 'a f***' most of the time when you walk out of a grocery store without buying anything? have you ever been punched in the face while getting into a bus just because people don't like to line up? that's what i mean by 'not literate'. go to china and stay there for a couple of months. it's gonna change your mind. be realistic. don't make the judgement when you don't know the real-life situations.
I tend to distrust anyone who defends applying blind violence to impose societal rules / government styles - even Democracy - as an autocrat or potential dictator in disguise. Mr Song may have been one, easily. But you do not find easily true well intended revolutionaries like Gandhi, Mandela and MLK.... And I tend to think that the end results of transitions are better, stronger and more durable than the end results of revolutions.
The day the Chinese society as a whole is actually ready for true Democracy they will demand it and no force - Chinese or foreign - will be able to prevent it. Same thing for Russia, Egypt, Iran, Angola, Sudan, Somalia, you name it. Of course autocratic rulers will resist but the free Internet (mainly) will bring all societies to the point where Democracy will be demanded, implemented and brought to work by the citizens and for the citizens.
Hopefully with all major world powers and nations under democratic rule an era of stable worldwide peace will be initiated where people worldwide will be way more interested in running business activities to improve their lives and in enjoying the benefits of the general prosperity that this will bring. In general democracies are much less likely (but not immune) to commit mean actions against common people than autocracies / dictatorships. And informed common people in general do not like wars carried for the glory of leaders.
However it may be possible - who knows for sure? - that at certain stages of its collective development a society as a whole may not be ready for full Democracy as we today know it in the West. Athens or Rome in their best days were never Democracies in the true sense, but rather plutocracies where less than 5%, roughly, of the population had a say in how the government was chosen and run. And also America along with many other Democratic nations of present, did not start as a full Democracy as many citizens (like blacks and women) were not allowed to vote.
It seems to me that China is on the path to Democracy, however slow. A transition - even the one being slowly in progress today - might work better than a jump. But, again, probably no one knows the answer.
Counterfactual speculations should be in the fiction section. This piece tells us far more about the author's distant, and rather foreign, fantasies [and biases] than any reality in China. Here's a different speculation..... things would have gone pretty much the way they actually went because a single-person doesn't actually change that much. His death was a crime, certainly, but more so it was evidence of what china was at the time and had to be for a while. Jefferson, hardly a model, slept with the slaves. Pursued genocide [under another label of course] against the original owners of the continent. US history didn't change much as a result of Hamilton's death. Nor would it have had Jefferson been assassinated. The current US form of electoral 'democracy' which is more like an auction, is hardly a model. The current US government policies of supporting Bahraini oppression [merely the most recent support for tyranny, not the last, and droning children on the other side of the planet] are unmentioned by the author. Yet they are just as relevant as any other causational fantasy.
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." Sir Winston Churchill
The imperfection of the Democracy and the U.S founding fathers can be criticized and scrutinized openly; and have been admitted. Much has been discussed, analyzed and made nonsense(Lincoln and vampire and zombies anyone?). However why is that CCP sympathizer become sensitive when there is an analytical view of the history of China? If CCP is the perfect system, why insecurity?
No one familiar with politics in the US would recognize it as "the Democracy". At best it is an out-dated primitive form. In some respects the national government isn't a democracy at all except possibly some parts of the house of representatives. The electoral college isn't democratic. The Senate is a hold over from slave-protecting gerrymandering; most house districts are partisan gerrymanders with pre-ordained outcomes particularly when combined with bribists, err lobbyists, and bribists, err campaign contributions from anonymous sources. The Supreme Court isn't at all democratic. So maybe I'm missing the point but the federal government in the US is neither democratic, the senate, the electoral college, the supreme court; nor representative. The senate has only a handful of women and more Jews [1% of the population and more than 6 senators] than blacks [12% of population and no elected Senators]. Where's the democracy in Washington? Don't equate 'the Democracy' [your term] with the US federal government. I'm far more secure in my argument than you are in yours.
You keep using the term "democracy" as if that is what the USA was intended to be. It's a republican form of government. There is a distinction. It is far from perfect. Your point about gerrymandering is astute, yet one must take into consideration the successful grassroots efforts that are under way in many states to abolish this evil (e.g. California).
As for the Senate, it was formed as a compromise that wouldn't have left small states without voting power in the then-proposed legislature. Admittedly, it was not a democratic institution at the time. Yet the 17th Amendment was passed to allow direct elections of senators. And as for your critique of Congress, you merely look at the demographic makeup in the Senate while casually ignoring that the Democratic Party's membership in the House is now mostly comprised of non-white men. Progress is clearly being made within just the past decade.
And as for the Supreme Court, isn't meant to be democratic. That's the point of a court.
Overall, your points have some merit, yet you have cherry-picked the facts to support your narrative. This is quite transparent, especially your citation of an obscure demographic fact regarding blacks and Jews. You allow these small details to distract from the bigger picture, which leaves your argument less than secure.
Quote: "The senate has only a handful of women and more Jews [1% of the population and more than 6 senators] than blacks [12% of population and no elected Senators]."
Whatever happened to that one black Senator from Illinois...what was his name again? Oranda? Okena? Something like that...
If China were a man, he would regret about what has gone wrong in the past, and would be now wise enough to understand that life is full of randomness yet determined by some kind of destiny.
And in those desperate times, he would also say to himself: give your dream some time, it is coming.
Air safety: A crash course in probability
A statistical brush-up: Chance encounter
Tom Stoppard's new play: On the brain
The future of American football: The end zone
Game theory
Freedom of speech: Truth unspoken to power
Anti-Semitism and free speech: Outlawing intolerance
Graphic detail
Have you listened to The Economist Radio on Facebook?
The Economist Radio is an on-demand social listening platform that allows you to listen, share and recommend The Economist audio content
Test your EQ
Take our weekly news quiz to stay on top of the headlines
In Other Words
Try our new audio app and website, providing reporting and analysis from our correspondents around the world every weekday
Want more from The Economist?
Visit The Economist e-store and you'll find a range of carefully selected products for business and pleasure, Economist books and diaries, and much more


text:
What do you think is the most effective rooting hormone for rooting hard to root tree cuttings (hardwood twigs)?
I'm wanting to root some sentimental trees, and also a rare weeping mutation Eastern Red ceder I found. Trees to root this late winter:
I think all these tree above require about 0.8% IBA to root good. (Oak might need more) I might buy 2 or 3 rooting hormone products to try out, and see what works best. But what would you think is the best rooting hormone from the below list? Or if there's any thing better than what I found below, let me know. >CLONEX RED Rooting Hormone Gel Contains 0.8% Indole-3-Butyric Acid
Any help would be appreciated. |
Follow-Up Postings:
- Posted by yiorges-z5il (My Page) on Sun, Feb 22, 09 at 10:20
Have used the first 4 & results from each have been the same.... I purchase based on price & avalibility..... The trade name of the product does not enter into my consederation only the concentration of the active ingredient (IBA) |
Dip and Grow liquid works best on the type cuttings you are doing. Read The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation, by Michael Dirr for directions on each species. Al |
- Posted by echinaceamaniac 7 (My Page) on Tue, Mar 24, 09 at 16:30
I use Clonex on all my plants and it's pretty good! |
Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum. If you are a member, please log in. If you aren't yet a member, join now!
Return to the Plant Propagation Forum
Information about Posting
- You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
- Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
- Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
- After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
- Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
- We have a strict no-advertising policy!
- If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
- If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.
Learn more about in-text links on this page here

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Updated: July 16, 2014 6:10AM
South Suburban College's health professions department will host an open house June 24 for its new speech language pathology assistant program, which it will pilot during the fall, according to a press release from the college.
The speech language pathology assistant educational program prepares individuals to work in a health or educational setting under a registered speech pathologist with at least two years of professional experience, according to the release. Assistants generally work with equipment maintenance, patient assessment, paperwork and execution of speech pathologist treatment plans, it said.
Courses in the program are structured to provide students with background information, theories, principles and techniques for implementation of treatment plans and goals of speech-, language- and hearing-disordered individuals, according to the college. The program supplements classroom instruction with required supervised clinical observation and practicum experiences in speech language pathology and audiology, it said.
The program at SSC is fully accredited through the Higher Learning Commission, the Illinois Community College Board, Illinois Board of Higher Education and the Illinois State Board of Education, the release said. Upon successful completion of all academic and fieldwork requirements, students receive an associate in applied science degree, it said.
Prospective students can learn more about the program and job opportunities by attending the open houses from 9 a.m. to 2 p.m. June 10 in the Mi-Jack Room, and/or from 5:30 to 8:30 p.m. June 24 in the Heritage Room. Both locations are on the main campus, 15800 S. State St., South Holland.
For more information about health professions programs, call (708) 596-2000, Ext. 2204, visit www.ssc.edu or stop by Room 4457 on campus.
Registration for the fall semester is underway, the release said. For enrollment information, call (708) 210-5718.
Staff report


text:
… Read moreLook, I know that people will probably try to lynch me when I say this, but Bishop [James] Ussher wasn't inspired by the Lord when he said that it all took 6,000 years. It just didn't. You go back in time, you've got radiocarbon dating. You got all these things and you've got the carcasses of dinosaurs frozen in time out in the Dakotas.
They're out there. So, there was a time
Tag Archive: Christianity
History Existed Before Bible Says Pat Robertson
When The Rapture Fails
Well, the rapture failed to happen and we all had a good laugh. There's been some pushback against the laughter and some calls for mutual understanding and so forth. But while it's true that it's not nice to laugh at the misfortunes and humiliation of others, I think it's a reasonable substitute for what we might otherwise feel: unadulterated rage.
Why? Consider this article from the NYT:
… Read moreWith their doomsday T-shirts, placards and leaflets, followers


text:
Corporate responsibility
Our approach
Our approach to corporate responsibility is concentrated on four areas of activity:
Business ethics
High ethical standards are at the heart of the way we do business. Ethical behaviour preserves and enhances our corporate reputation and we support a climate that empowers all of our employees to 'do the right thing'.
Health, safety and the environment (HS&E)
With its heritage of technological and engineering excellence, Rolls-Royce is well placed to help society address the problems of climate change and energy security. We also believe that good HS&E performance is synonymous with good business performance and we aim to be recognised widely for the excellence of our HS&E performance.
We aim to create an inclusive working environment that attracts and retains the best people, enhances their flexibility, capability and motivation, and encourages them to be involved, continuously improving performance. In doing so we deliver on the commitment to all of our stakeholders of being trusted to deliver excellence.
Rolls-Royce has a firm, long-standing commitment to the communities in which we operate around the world. Sustained investment in communities makes a positive difference and delivers tangible benefits to our business. Corporate responsibility is also a key enabler in delivering our supply chain strategy globally.


text:
I have a gypsy rose that has an all green division.
Gypsy rose is a sport of striptease which is a sport of gold standard which is a sport of Fortunei Hyacinthina. Thus, is my all green division hyacinthina or a all green sport of gypsy rose which would be called "let me entertain you" (according to the hosta library). Sports of sports becomes so confusing!!! |
Follow-Up Postings:
- Posted by paul_in_mn 4b (My Page) on Sun, May 20, 12 at 14:26
First off - if you ask for purpose of labeling it....it is a sport of Gypsy Rose, that is the most you can be sure of... I have a couple that are labeled that way in my gardens. Though one I may eventually give a different name and use the double "marks" around the name to indicate it is a name in my garden and not a traded named cultivar. Second, if it is only for your garden, it doesn't matter - call it whatever you want...Green Gypsy of LSU. Part of the fun of growing hosta is the sporting. Paul |
I believe the all green sport is called Let Me Entertain You.... Alexa |
- Posted by moccasinlanding z9A AL (My Page) on Sun, May 20, 12 at 19:55
Hi, LSUHostaFreak in AL! Glad to see you show on the Hosta Forum here. I really enjoy visiting the MyHostas.be website where they have a family tree for the sports. Don't get lost there and forget to come back though. Link is below. |
Here is a link that might be useful: My Hostas (then find the sports)
Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum. If you are a member, please log in. If you aren't yet a member, join now!
Return to the Hosta Forum
Information about Posting
- You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
- Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
- Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
- After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
- Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
- We have a strict no-advertising policy!
- If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
- If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.
Learn more about in-text links on this page here


text:
In the last couple of years we have seen exponential change in how we pay for things and causes we care about. At MEVU, we have demonstrated a glimpse of how we can reinvent it. We have taken the best of wearable gesture technology and bitcoin's microtransaction capability to allow payment to be done with a simple gesture in the air. This will allow you to buy a cup of coffee without the need to take out your wallet, you just have to perform a simple airsign with our device. Imagine that you are driving out from a parking lot, and while you are approaching the payment facility you just make a gesture with your hand to make the payment, and you can do this without even lowering your car windows.
The biggest idea is in fact that through microtransactions, we can bring a new model where community / common property can be maintained with the help of the users visiting the locations and donating micro-cents through air gesture. The trends are already starting with reddit tipbot with dogecoin and flattr.
Elinor Ostrom, received Nobel Prize for Economics 2009 in her book 'Governing the Commons' from 1990, demonstrated how common property can be successfully managed by user associations and that economic analysis can shed light on most forms of social organization.


text:
found a new home!
Plenty of my friends are looking
for one too. Find a pet to adopt.
Find a pet to adopt |
My name is Ferbie!
Facts about Ferbie
- Breed: Dachshund/Chihuahua Mix
- Color: White - With Brown Or Chocolate
- Age: Adult
- Size: Small 25 lbs (11 kg) or less
- Sex: Male
Ferbie's Info...
I am already neutered, up to date with shots, good with kids, good with dogs, and good with cats.
Meet Ferbie Brother to Yoshi!
Ferbie is a 2.5 year old Doxie/ Chi Mix and was rescued from a home in Bakersfield along with his two sisters Yoshi and Pretty Girl, the lady had become overwhelmed with to many dogs, Ferbie is handsome, shy, and timid! Ferbie comes Fully Vetted! He walks well on a leash and at 2.5 year old needs to learn to be house-trained, he lived outside in the backyard. He is going to need someone or a family that can devote time, patience and lots of love to him so may learn to trust and know security.
Other Pets at Paw Protectors Rescue
Why Adoption is a Great Option
Ferbie, a Oceanside Dachshund/Chihuahua dog was adopted! Here's how you can benefit by looking at adoption as an option to buying a Dachshund/Chihuahua for sale in Oceanside, or seeking a Dachshund/Chihuahua dog from a breeder in Oceanside.
- Rescues and shelter volunteers in Oceanside already know the personality and tendencies of their pets. This means they can match you with the right pet. That will makes it much easier transition to owning a pet for yourself and your new pet.
- On average adoption fees are much less than you'd pay a Oceanside breeder, or pet store. Plus most often rescue pets have already been to the veterinarian for a check-up, had a round of vaccinations, and are spayed or neutered. That is a lot of savings!
- You will become a hero, and give a needy dog or cat a loving home. In fact, there are even Dachshund/Chihuahua breeders who help with Dachshund/Chihuahua rescue. One puppy or kitten adopted in Oceanside paves the way for another one to be saved.


text:
In The Morning
Comments for this Video
Great post, I look forward to reading more like this. I definitely enjoying every little bit of it. keep posting. Sbobet Asia
Many appreciations for the work it takes to be dedicated to the work and God's blessings to reach others from His heart. I keep the sisters, the work, and their families in prayer. Their work is no small task.
Receive great PEACE with anointing.
Evang. Hill
i love yall song some much yall inspired me to sing in dance everytime i here yall songs god bless
me love this song
i love this song im a huge fan of mary mary i looooooooooooooooooooooooooooovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee tina and her hair and i lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeee erica to but i love tina
This song is so beautiful. It gives me hope. God Bless you!
I love this video in the morning everything will be alright!
It's amazing, how the lord guide your steps. As a returning spirit seeking the lords word, I am going through what your songs, is about, and he's guiding me, even while on this site, because in the morning I am returning to work, after being out for 1 year due to spinal surgery. All I can say is THANK YOU JESUS...THANK YOU JESUS...THANK YOU JESUS!
i luv marymary.i kno evrything there is 2 kno bout em.this is 1 of my faves by em.this album was ACTUALLY released in 2002, not 2008.
i cant waite to wake up nd prayies god
cant wait til morning!
Really believe that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i love this song and i love Marymary
I like this song!!!!
I love this song it is fabulouls i love it.
That is a great video.


text: Happy November everyone and a huge hello from Jessica Draws HQ! It's been a fabulous summer and there's been so much going on that I haven't even had time to tell you all about it! We're heading into winter now and I thought it would be a great time to clue you in on what's been happening and future plans and share some design studio news.


text:
20 Surprising Ways to Burn 100 Calories
Trim your waistline with these unlikely fat-blasting moves
By Olivia Putnal
Have a Little Fun
Grab a glove and head outside to play catch with the little ones for 35 minutes. Not only will you be the coolest mom in the neighborhood—you'll also be on your way to being the slimmest one. For an even better workout, get a little batting practice in, too!
DEX IMAGE/Getty Images


text:
FILE POOL - In this July 9, 2011 file photo, USMC Gen. John Allen, left, and Army Gen. David Petraeus, top U.S. commander in Afghanistan and incoming CIA Director, greet former CIA Director and new U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, right, as he lands in Kabul, Afghanistan, Saturday, July 9, 2011. (AP Photo/Paul J. Richards, Pool)
Article Extras
WASHINGTON — Responding warily to his administration's sudden sex scandal, President Barack Obama said Wednesday he's seen no evidence that national security was damaged by the revelations that ended his CIA director's career and imperil that of his Afghan war commander.
But the president said he is reserving judgment about how the FBI has handled the investigation that began in the summer but didn't reach his desk until after last week's election.
"I have a lot of confidence, generally, in the FBI," Obama said, qualifying his words of support for the agency and its actions in the case.
As Obama spoke about the scandal from the White House, legislators on Capitol Hill were grilling FBI and CIA officials privately about the same issues: whether national security was jeopardized by the case and why they didn't know about the investigation sooner.
"I have no evidence at this point, from what I've seen, that classified information was disclosed that in any way would have had a negative impact on our national security," Obama said at his first postelection news conference.
As for the FBI's handling of the matter, Obama said: "My expectation is that they follow the protocols that they've already established. One of the challenges here is that we're not supposed to meddle in criminal investigations, and that's been our practice."
FBI agent in middle of Kelley-Broadwell e-mail controversy
FBI Special Agent Frederick Humphries II played a key role in stopping a terrorist attack aimed at blowing up Los Angeles International Airport just as the year 2000 dawned. He fatally shot a man who threatened him and other law enforcement officers with a knife during an altercation at Tampa's MacDill Air Force Base in 2010.
And now Humphries finds himself in the middle of the widening scandal that has resulted in CIA Director David Petraeus' resignation.
Humphries, 47, was the agent who initially saw the emails the FBI said Petraeus' biographer and mistress, Paula Broadwell, sent to Tampa socialite Jill Kelley, a woman she apparently saw as a rival for Petraeus' affections. She also allegedly sent emails to Gen. John Allen, Kelley's friend and the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan.
Concerned about the emails, Kelley contacted Humphries in June. The two had met at a 2011 FBI Citizens Academy, a program aimed at teaching the public and journalists about what the agency does and how it operates. Kelley was in the class, which Humphries lectured one night about terrorism, according to Natalie Shepherd, a Tampa TV reporter who was there.
Humphries, a former Army captain who worked in military intelligence, thought the emails raised serious concerns because the anonymous author knew the comings and goings of Allen and Petraeus, a former general who had preceded Allen in Afghanistan. His report back to the FBI started the investigation that led to Broadwell and uncovered her affair with Petraeus.
The FBI is reviewing Humphries' later conduct in this case, a federal law enforcement official said Wednesday. Specifically, the bureau is reviewing a telephone call he made in late October to Rep. Dave Reichert (R-Wash.) to voice concern that the bureau was not aggressively pursuing a possible national security breach. Reichert arranged to convey the information to House Majority Leader Eric Cantor of Virginia, who checked with the FBI at that time. Cantor was assured the bureau was on top of any possible vulnerability.
Lawrence Berger, the general counsel for the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, said in an interview Wednesday that his client, Humphries, did nothing wrong and should not be disciplined. "He's committed no misconduct," Berger said and predicted he would be cleared of any misconduct.


text:
Harden Beard vs. Metta Elbow: The T-shirt
May, 14, 2012
Patrick Dorsey | ESPN.com
Yes, the designers at vivalabarba.com are back with a shirt fit for the Oklahoma City Thunder-Los Angeles Lakers series -- and the James Harden-Metta World Peace reunion (Monday, 9:30 p.m. ET).
Any response, Lakers T-shirt makers?
Image courtesy of vivalabarba.com.
You must be signed in to post a comment
You are fully responsible for the content you post. Content that includes profanity, personal attacks or antisocial behavior (such as "spamming" or "trolling"), or other inappropriate content or material will be removed. We reserve the right to block any user who violates our terms of use, including removing all content posted by that user.


text:
Singles file: Trey Songz f. Drake, Doug Paisley, Capstan Shafts
By Allison Stewart
A weekly playlist for the listener with a one-track mind...
Trey Songz featuring Drake: "The Usual"
The "Successful" duo re-team for a predictably steamy old-school jam from Songz's upcoming "Passion, Pain & Pleasure."
Jukebox the Ghost: "Empire (Freelance Whales remix)"
The formerly District-based trio's new single gets a ghostly revamp courtesy of the Whales.
Doug Paisley featuring Feist: "What I Saw"
The formerly ubiquitous Feist contributes a barely there vocal to this low-key, '70s-ish folk track by Canadian Gordon Lightfoot/Band/Jim James hybrid Paisley.
The Capstan Shafts: "Heart Your Eat Out"
West Virginia singer-songwriter Dean Wells, who usually home-records under the name the Capstan Shafts, got a band and a coating of studio polish for his new, maybe-breakthrough "Revelation Skirts," from which this short, perfect pop-punk song hails.
The Drums: "We Used to Wait" (Arcade Fire cover)
The Brooklyn band enlivens one of "The Suburbs' " slower moments in this BBC Live Lounge session excerpt.
Allison Stewart
September 7, 2010; 11:24 AM ET
Singles file
| Tags: Capstan Shafts, Doug Paisley, Drake, Feist, Freelance Whales, Jukebox the Ghost, The Drums, Trey Songz
Save & Share:
Previous: Album review: Jukebox the Ghost, "Everything Under the Sun"
Next: Album reviews: The Walkmen, "Lisbon" and Interpol, "Interpol"
No comments have been posted to this entry.
We encourage users to analyze, comment on and even challenge washingtonpost.com's articles, blogs, reviews and multimedia features.
User reviews and comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site. Additionally, entries that are unsigned or contain "signatures" by someone other than the actual author will be removed. Finally, we will take steps to block users who violate any of our posting standards, terms of use or privacy policies or any other policies governing this site. Please review the full rules governing commentaries and discussions.


text:
Home Congregations About Us Bookstore Press Room Giving
Page Navigation
Avoid the temptation to overemphasize the technical or to provide legal counsel.
It's easy to get lost in the technicalities of planned giving (tax deductions, tax rulings, and complex gift vehicles). Your most successful efforts will be "people-centered" and "value-centered." Your planned giving program exists to help individual Unitarian Universalists give to something in which they find great value, Unitarian Universalism. Your purpose is to make it possible for people to fulfill a desire to help our liberal religion, to help our values survive the centuries and serve future generations.
When you meet with someone, when you write a letter or something for the church newsletter, or when you create a brochure emphasize the human story, the spiritual satisfaction giving has to offer. When we commit financial resources to our religious values, great things radiate, inward and outward, strengthening our connection to the community we cherish.
One caution: In your enthusiasm to assist individuals in completing their gift plans, beware of becoming a personal advisor, offering legal or financial advice. It is inappropriate, even unethical, for a fund-raiser to exercise undue influence or direct a donor's personal affairs. It is always prudent to be mindful that your role is as a fund-raiser securing contributions for the church. That doesn't mean you are mercenary or that you cannot be of some help, but it does meant that you need to guard the boundary between providing information and becoming a donor's personal representative or certified financial planner nor attorney. Indeed, it would be a conflict of interest if you were.
To help people to find a qualified professional who can review their gift plans and advise them on their options, develop a list of reputable professionals in your community and make it readily available. Always encourage donors to seek independent qualified counsel before they commit to a gift plan of any significance or complexity.
The Unitarian Universalist Association Planned Giving staff can guide you through general rules on the tax considerations and some of the technical aspects of gift and estate planning. This is by no means a replacement for individual counsel.
For more information contact web @ uua.org.
This work is made possible by the generosity of individual donors and congregations. Please consider making a donation today.
Last updated on Friday, June 17, 2011.
Sidebar Content, Page Navigation
More Ways to Search
Donate to Support This Program and the Ongoing Work of the UUA
Read or subscribe to UUA.org Updates for the latest additions to our site.
Learn more about the Beliefs & Principles of Unitarian Universalism, or read our online magazine, UU World, for features on today's Unitarian Universalists. Visit an online UU church, or find a congregation near you.


text:
Select () or exclude () categories to narrow your recipe search.
As you select categories, the number of matching recipes will update.
Find exactly what you're looking for with the web's most powerful recipe filtering tool.
Hi everyone. I recently moved to quiet PA Dutch country, but my roots are in Tokyo, Japan, where I was born and NYC, where I was also raised. Being multi ethnic I grew up eating both eastern and western cuisine. I was raised by my Korean step- mother, an absolutely outstanding cook. Thanks to her I grew up around food preparation, which instilled the desire to cook good food. I love all types of food, and there is nothing like a great home cooked meal. I have also traveled extensively and have incorporated foods from countries where I have visited and lived into my diet. I love this website. If I have something I need to use up, all I have to do now is do a search and voila! I have found plenty of recipes to choose from---I even found recipes for sour milk! On a more personal level, I am a single woman with 3 cats and a dog. I work in a medical billing office and am currently studying to be a hospital coder. I would love to eventually work from home and possibly have a boarding house for international students where I can serve dinner from recipes I have found here!
Hmmmmmm--that's a hard one, since I have so many. I love sushi, especially raw fish like yellowtail and tuna, Korean food, arabic(middle eastern) food, pretty much anything that is well made, delicious and nutritious. I used to love eating out when I lived in big cities, but these days I really enjoy what I make at home. I buy almost all my produce and meat at a local farmers' market. I do what I can to support local farmers and I believe that eating seasonally is a sensible way to live. I have to admit that I buy salad from the salad bar at a local supermarket on a regular basis, too. I get a well rounded salad filled with green veggies.


text:
Processing Time - Orders typically ship in 2-5 business days. Transit via UPS Ground can take up to 6 business days. Braided and custom-made products may take 2 to 3 weeks for delivery.
Free Shipping to Contiguous United States - We do not ship to Alaska, Hawaii or the Caribbean Islands at this time.
Oversized items - Orders that ship freight may take up to 2 weeks from shipment date to be delivered. You will be contacted by the trucking company to schedule a delivery appointment.
Shipping to Canada - Orders shipping to Canada will be subject to a 15% shipping surcharge fee. The shipping surcharge does not cover duties, customs, taxes or brokerage fees which may be charged to you by the shipping courier at time of delivery. At this time we are not shipping to Yukon and the Northwest Territories in Canada.
Adesso Bellows Bellows Tree Lamp In Bronze Finish Bronze
Item #: 2544152FL-P
Description: This tree lamp has an antique bronze T-stand with metal ribbed white cotton fabric suspended shade and rectangular base.
- Collection: Bellows
- Brand: Adesso
- Material: Bronze
- Bulb Included: NO
- Switch Type: 3 Way Rotary
- Dimension: 74" H x 18" W
- Light Type: Floor
- Origin: China
- Available in the following sizes: 74" H x 18" W
In purchasing this lamp I was a little skeptic. However, it is very solid with a nice weight to it. The lamp is different than anything I've seen recently, yet stylish. I get lots of compliments from friends who've seen the lamp. I like it a lot.
From the onset, when Adesso first introduced its lighting products, an array of colors and materials were utilized in the design, including metals, rice-paper, woven fabric, glass, resin, bamboo wood and even cork! It wasn't long before a new category of RTA (Ready-To-Assemble) furniture was added to the product line. Everything from tables, chairs, and pedestals to CD racks, coat racks, and screens was included in this new assortment. The furniture was fresh, contemporary and always reasonably priced.
Our wide range of products allows us to cater to a variety of styles and tastes to ensure you will always find the style you are looking for.
Fill out the information below.


text:
L'Enfant Eternel
By Paul Flynn
Gaultier's grand gift as a designer has been to subvert the rigorous rules applied to masculinity and femininity in fashion. The "enfant terrible" tag was only ever a euphemism by the straight media attempting to get their heads around his bringing gay subcultures to the masses. "Exactly, definitely it was that," he concurs. "That name came from people who did not know what to say about me. People were interested in me and they didn't know what to call it. So they said, 'Enfant terrible.' I was against the codes we had in Paris. Through clothes, I felt that you could say something. In my shows, I could show a different type of beauty. Through my collections, I tried different casting, different ways of walking, and I loved to show ambiguity. What is masculine and what is feminine, anyway? Why should men not show that they can be fragile or seductive? I am only happy when there is no discrimination."
In an age of mass-market designer clutches and fragrances, the idea of clothing as a form of cultural revolt feels almost anachronistic. But Gaultier had been incubated amid the ideological temperament of punk and the New Romantics. As a design hand at Pierre Cardin at the start of the '70s, employed without qualification as an 18-year-old, he had presented to the grand master of Modernism a wedding dress that fit two people. "He didn't make it, but he loved the idea," Gaultier says. "It wasn't like an old French house. It wasn't that old prostitution of doing everything for money; it was doing things for the love of the idea. He taught me to be truly free-spirited."
SLIDESHOW: The Fashion World of Jean Paul Gaultier: From the Sidewalk to the Catwalk
This unbridled approach to his life and work is what has kept him relevant throughout his career. "He's always understood fashion as it's related to the broader sphere -- to pop culture and culture at large," says Laura Brown, the features and special projects director at Harper's Bazaar. "He has a wonderful sense of humor about fashion and himself. I saw him at Christmas, and instead of an angel on his tree, he had a teddy bear in a striped top. He has a sense of whimsy and doesn't worry about being cool. He's done crazy things for us, like dressed as a nun, and we painted him in stripes. He runs an empire, but he still has that glimmer in his eye."
Gaultier attributes his cheery demeanor to growing up in a family similarly free of institutional rigor. Individuality was encouraged. "My parents never said anything bad about gay people," he says. "My grandmother, also, was very clever. I was maybe 11 or 12, and she gave me a book about Christian Dior. It said that he was gay. So I realized that boys could go with boys. I was a little confused at this point, in love with Romeo and with Juliet. I had the great example of Yves Saint Laurent and Mr. Bergé, so I understood very easily that men could go to parties as a couple. They set that example. In fashion, you are not rejected because you are gay. I felt like everything was normal in the job I wanted to do."
When he was 12, the Gaultier family watched the Sidney Poitier film Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, and the young Jean Paul asked his parents what they would do if he were to bring home a black girlfriend. "They said, 'If you love each other, that is all we care about. We will not say anything. Love is always good,' " he recalls. "A few years later, when I said that the girl is perhaps not a girl, they said the same: 'If you love each other, perfect.' That gave me peace."


text:
[Our websites]
[Send Press Release]
[World Army Equipment]
[Defence Industry]
[Focus / Analysis]
[Site Map]
Centurion C-RAM Counter-Rocket, Artillery and Mortar weapon system
Technical Data
Details view
Pictures - Video
The Centurion Weapon System is a Land-Based Phalanx Weapon System with the capability of integration with other protection sensors and systems. The system is designed and manufactured by the American Company Raytheon. Phalanx is a rapid-fire, computer-controlled radar and 20 mm gun system that automatically acquires, tracks, and destroys enemy threats that have penetrated all other ship defense systems. The Phalanx was designed in the beginning as ship-based anti-missile system. The Centurion™ Weapon System mission represents a revolutionary approach to countering insurgent activities by intercepting rockets, artillery and mortar rounds in the air before impact, thereby reducing or eliminating any damage they might cause. The U.S. Navy uses the same capability of the Phalanx 1B sea-based system as its point-defense weapon to protect the fleet from low-flying cruise missiles and other air and surface threats.. The Phalanx was first tested for possible Centurion™ Weapon System missions in November 2004 and successfully proved its ability to provide unparalleled land-based protection. Phalanx can be interfaced with a multitude of sensors and systems designed to provide an overarching protection umbrella of sites on the ground. In 2009, the Rayheon Centurion weapon system was displayed at the defence Exhibition DSEI in London, United Kingdom.
The first C-RAM was sent to Iraq in late 2006, to protect the Green Zone (the large area in Baghdad turned into an American base). It was found that C-RAM could knock down 70-80 percent of the rockets and mortar shells fired within range of its cannon. In the last two years, Centurion systems in Iraq have intercepted over a hundred rockets or mortar shells aimed at the Green Zone.
No variants at this time
Technical Data
Back to top
Armament and radar system
Phalanx combines a proven 20 mm M61A1 Gatling gun, firing M-246 or M-940 self-destruct rounds at a selectable rate of 3,000 or 4,500 shots per minute, with an advanced search and track Ku-band radar featuring closed-loop spotting technology to provide autonomous target detection and engagement. Phalanx can be interfaced with a multitude of sensors and systems designed to provide an overarching protection umbrella of sites on the ground. Phalanx uses six optimized gun barrels along with an integrated forward-looking infrared (FLIR) sensor suite. More stringent firing schedules are provided for by securing the six barrels at the muzzle, mid-barrel and breech, for more accuracy and a concentrated shot dispersion pattern. The Block 1B FLIR provides the capability to search, track and engage threats while simultaneously providing a detect, prioritize and kill assessment feature that is effective in both daylight and nighttime environments.
Using a Ku-band radar, Phalanx is proven to detect threats early in their flight and then hand over to the track mode only when those targets are determined to threaten the area protected by the system. To augment its tracking and engagement capability, the Phalanx Block 1B incorporates a thermal imager with automatic acquisition tracking. The system operates in the 8–12 micron wavelength and is mounted on a stabilized pedestal attached to the existing Block 1B track antenna radome. This system provides a reliable day and night passive search and track capability while improving the anti-air warfare performance in multi-path environments.
Centurion uses target acquisition sensors, including Northrop Grumman's AN/TPQ-36 short-range Firefinder radar and the Lightweight Counter Mortar Radar, to detect and track fired rounds. The fire-control subsystem Northrop Grumman Mission Systems provides for C-RAM uses software modified from Northrop Grumman's Forward Area Air Defense Command and Control (FAAD C2) system, which ties together the sensors and weapons of the Army's short-range air-defense battalions.
Design and protection
The Centurion™ Weapon System is powered by a generator and has a water chiller cooling system and an enclosed control station.
In the land-based configuration, a Phalanx Block 1B is mounted on a wheeled platform, which provides both a stable site and mobility to allow for repositioning.The Centurion can be mounted on a trailer or the rear side of Oshkosh truck. In October 2008, Raytheon and Oshkosh unveiled the Mobile Centurion, which mounts the system on a hybrid-electric HEMTT A3 heavy truck.
Combat use
Phalanx is proven to identify and engage air threats successfully in both high and low quadrant elevation trajectories. Collateral damage is always a concern whenever urban securityforces consider a high-speed gun system as a solution to the rocket, artillery and mortar threat. In urban terrain or heavily populated areas, outgoing rounds might prove as dangerous — if not more dangerous — than incoming rounds. To minimize collateral damage, Centurion™ Weapon System fires self-destruct rounds. Studies show that residue from self destructed rounds causes virtually no damage. The deployment of the Phalanx Block 1B and its integration into a holistic approach to defeat rocket, artillery and mortar threats is changing the face of security operations in urban settings and will force insurgents to seriously consider their activities when attacking high value sites.
The Phalanx Turret is a very powerful weapon, on both vehicles and infantry, as the 20mm AA gun will inflict severe damage against enemy troops, light vehicles, and medium vehicles while the Missile Launcher will inflict heavy damage against Aircraft.
Back to top
M61A1 20 mm cannon
Country users
United States
Designer Company
FLIR Sensor imaging system with automatic acquisition tracker, automatic and manual fire control
Fire rate
Dual fire rate – 3,000 or 4,500 shots per minute
24,000 kg on trailer
Search radar: Ku-band, digital MTI
Track radar: Ku-band, pulse Doppler monopulse
? km
Lenght: ? m; Width: ? m; Height: ? m
Details View
Back to top
Pictures - Video
Back to top
Visit Army Recognition Online digital database Army - Military - Defense Industry
Video Centurion C-RAM Weapon System
< Prev
Next >
[ Back ]
SEO by Artio
A total of nine
regiments are expected to be deployed by Russia across the Arctic in the coming months. Russia began moving troops towards a new military installation 31 miles from the Finnish border.
Read More
Your add video on Army Recognition website
Free Web Counter
Subscribe NewsLetter