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The veggies in their catalog look so much more fun and delicious than growing the same old stuff you can get at the grocery store. What is your opinion of this company and their seeds? |
Follow-Up Postings:
Great company. Selection is awesome and shipping rates are low for normal seed packets. I ordered a bunch of seeds and shipping only cost me $3 to send to Western Canada. |
IMO, one of the best heirloom seed companies. You might want to check the "Rate & Review Vendors" thread, for more opinions. |
Good selection and everything I purchased was type to type. I was able to stop last year during their spring festival, which is a good time. Dean |
I'm not a fan of theirs. Didn't like the politics mixed in with seed selling. Just my opinion. |
Seeds of Change is political too. I also noticed that Organic Gardening Magazine has become political. At least it was the last time I looked through one. That was a while ago and I have refrained from looking at more for that reason. |
- Posted by roper2008 virginia 7a-8 (email@example.com) on Sun, Aug 21, 11 at 14:01
Politics aside, they are a good company to order from. I just placed and order. Another good one is Southern Exposure Seed Exchange. There are others too. |
- Posted by mountainman.wvu (My Page) on Fri, Aug 26, 11 at 1:00
I ordered 80 $ worth of seeds last year yo try and start a garden for my children's school. I sent them an email explaining everything and asked if they could help with information or anything. They never once contacted me back. Also the beefsteak seeds I got were not beefsteak. They were small round globe tomatoes. I will not order from them ever again. I found Heirloom acres where you can get a LOT of seeds for a great price. I am going to try them this year. |
I really like Baker's Creek, but there is room for improvement as well (I have yet to find one I'm completely satisfied with). In general, Baker's Creek has a large selection, good pricing, and puts plenty of seeds in the packet. Sometimes their seeds don't come true to type (but I suspect this is probably true of everyone out there), but for the most part they do. If you file a complaint, they will honor it and give you a refund of some sort (I just asked for a discount code because I'm lucky if I spend LESS than $100 there each year - I simply grow too much because I'm addicted - I could probably feed my whole block if I tried). Baker's Creek has a better website that most, but it's still VERY lacking. Not everything has a photo to go with it, their customer comments lack useful ranking information, have had information lost from them, can't be edited after the fact, etc. Their descriptions of the seeds are often missing very useful pieces of information about the varieties. I've tried to help out on the website a few times by offering advice as to what needs improved, attempting to donate some photos to them, etc. but overall I just get the impression they don't have time to deal with it. If I didn't have a full time job that very much needs doing, I'd start an heirloom seed website simply to get it right. When you place an order, they do ship in a reasonable length of time, and they've always got my orders right. It is very difficult (for me anyway) to tell when they have new seeds coming available and when they don't - things seem to come and go almost at random. Overall, I think they're the best there is - but there's plenty of room for improvement. If someone else thinks they know a better site, I'd very much like to hear about it. |
GBlack, That they are missing photos does not bother me as it is better than the photo theft of some companies that do have a photo with every item. It is difficult to acquire a proper photo for every variety. It is nice though that you offered photos. It would be interesting to know why they didn't accept them. What do you think they are missing in variety descriptions that you find useful? Remy |
- Posted by rqeversole none (email@example.com) on Sun, Dec 25, 11 at 2:51
I have ordered from probably 10-15 different seed companies and Baker Creek and Seed Savers Exchange are the BEST. I once got a pack of tomato seeds from BC with only 25% germination. I called and told them about it, and that it was too late to plant a replacement pack this late in the year. They asked me if there was anything else i would like that i could plant now, I asked for some rare squash seeds. I received them and 2 packs of similiar seeds for my "trouble". Best customer service you can get. I ordered a pack of brussells sprouts seeds from BC which were supposed to contain apprx 800 seeds. As soon as it was opened we knew there were way more, and decided to count them out of curiosity. We stopped counting at 12,000 seeds! Sustainable Seed Co. Have a nice selection of heirloom seed, and beautiful seed pack designs as well. However, they are expensive and if the pack says 15-20 seeds, then you get 15 seeds! To mountainman.wvu....heirloom acres is known to be the WORST seed company online. They have an F rating with the BBB and on Garden Watchdog they have over 100 negative ratings. They also have several complaints lodged against them with the attorney general. You can find stories all over the Internet about them. I however decided to give them a try and see for myself (after all they are very cheap and a nice selection). It took them 3 weeks to ship my order to me (and this was during the off season). Some people complain of shipping taking 3 months to which the company says they are a "small company and work as fast as they can". Sorry, but anything more than 3 days to ship seeds is just too long. When I received it there were 8 items Backordered. I emailed and asked for an ETA for them. After 2 weeks of no reply I began trying to call. It took me 3 weeks of calling everyday at various time to get them on the phone. When I asked about the shipping date for my Backordered items I was told that some would be coming in in about a month. However 3 of them had been out of stock all year and they were expecting them in stock within the next year....I was shocked and asked why they weren't listed as out of stock on the website...to which I was told "it's too much work to try to keep it up to date". I will say that they did very quickly issue a refund back to me. Please be warned this is one of the worst seed companies out there. |
- Posted by rqeversole none (email@example.com) on Sun, Dec 25, 11 at 3:00
I have ordered from probably 10-15 different seed companies and Baker Creek and Seed Savers Exchange are the BEST. I once got a pack of tomato seeds from BC with only 25% germination. I called and told them about it, and that it was too late to plant a replacement pack this late in the year. They asked me if there was anything else i would like that i could plant now, I asked for some rare squash seeds. I received them and 2 packs of similiar seeds for my "trouble". Best customer service you can get. I ordered a pack of brussells sprouts seeds from BC which were supposed to contain apprx 800 seeds. As soon as it was opened we knew there were way more, and decided to count them out of curiosity. We stopped counting at 12,000 seeds! Sustainable Seed Co. Have a nice selection of heirloom seed, and beautiful seed pack designs as well. However, they are expensive and if the pack says 15-20 seeds, then you get 15 seeds! To mountainman.wvu....heirloom acres is known to be the WORST seed company online. They have an F rating with the BBB and on Garden Watchdog they have over 100 negative ratings. They also have several complaints lodged against them with the attorney general. You can find stories all over the Internet about them. I however decided to give them a try and see for myself (after all they are very cheap and a nice selection). It took them 3 weeks to ship my order to me (and this was during the off season). Some people complain of shipping taking 3 months to which the company says they are a "small company and work as fast as they can". Sorry, but anything more than 3 days to ship seeds is just too long. When I received it there were 8 items Backordered. I emailed and asked for an ETA for them. After 2 weeks of no reply I began trying to call. It took me 3 weeks of calling everyday at various time to get them on the phone. When I asked about the shipping date for my Backordered items I was told that some would be coming in in about a month. However 3 of them had been out of stock all year and they were expecting them in stock within the next year....I was shocked and asked why they weren't listed as out of stock on the website...to which I was told "it's too much work to try to keep it up to date". I will say that they did very quickly issue a refund back to me. Please be warned this is one of the worst seed companies out there. |
- Posted by LaurieK123 7b (My Page) on Mon, Dec 26, 11 at 13:38
I have ordered twice and I will order again. They seem to be very dedicated. Their interest in seeds and saving heirlooms has made me interested. I ordered over the phone and the person I talked to was extremely knowedgeable about the seeds and also about how their seed stock was grown. I got my seeds fast, in good packaging and the price is right! Their catalog is gorgeous and qualifies as a coffee table book in my house. |
LOVE them. great selection, good descriptions, great website, fast/cheap shipping, generous amounts, good germination, great customer service. can't imagine ordering from anyone else. |
Not a fan - have purchased from them over 5 years & last year quit. Too many poor germinations on different basils (when same varieties but different sources in same 96 cell trays (different cells) did fine - they were densely seeded but poor germination. Too many instances of wrong tomato types popping up (worse than Tomatofest OMG - Tomatofest folks are overwhelmingly kind which offsets occasional foul ups - not so in Idig forum nonsense). The simple minded political hand wringing righteousness did them in for my $. I much prefer Seeds from Italy for herbs (HUGE packets for GREAT prices), The Sample Seed shop for specialty basil in small quantities, Hazzard's seeds for specialty basils & almost all other vegies including tomatoes but I love Tomato Grower's Supply, Gleckler Seedmen, Heritage Seeds in CA, Marianna's Seeds out of TN - all much more reliable & preferable to me. oh left off Victory Seed Company & Sandhill Preservation & SESE & Knapps Fresh Vegies Seeds are all greatly preferred IMAO. |
- Posted by soilent_green 4b MN (My Page) on Sat, Feb 11, 12 at 14:04
I went from initially being "wowed" by BC to them simply being another catalog on the stack. IMO they are good, not great - good enough for me to make a small order from them most years, and I urge anyone to go ahead and give them a try to develop their own opinions. I keep an open mind and love trying new things but they have way too much funky stuff I would never have an interest in trying. BC easily has the most beautiful catalog going and it is wonderful to peruse, but seems to me to be a bit of a waste of resources and not the most environmentally friendly. I have had instances of poor germination and incorrect seed type. Annoying but hasn't turned me off from them. Easily the biggest negative to me is their inconsistent or total lack of planting information for varieties in the catalog or on the seed packs. Being that I have to research every variety I order from them, I have leaned towards smaller orders or simply ordering elsewhere. I don't have a favorite company but I find myself making my main orders from the five same companies every year that I know and trust, BC has been demoted to my second tier list of companies from where I make optional small orders for curiosities and unique stuff. |
- Posted by heirloomgardengirl 7 (My Page) on Mon, Mar 5, 12 at 12:13
I generally don't order from anyone else! They are amazing - only $3 shipping, free seed packet (not a junkie seed packet) and so many varieties!!! Every year they have something new! only once did something not germinate, and I think its because of something I did wrong. :) |
Will not waste my money with them again. Very poor germination from their seeds. For the second year in a row I have gotten about a 5 to 10% germination rate from all of the seeds purchased form Baker Creek. Last year I gave them a pass because of our extremes in weather, a very wet cold spring followed by a long hot drought. This year our garden is doing very well. All seeds went in the same day. For example, I planted three kinds of cucumbers. The seed from Home Depot (Seeds of Change brand Sumpter cukes) germinated at about 90% and are now large and healthy. These seeds germinated in about a week. The Baker Creek seeds are lousy. Took 3 weeks to germinate. 2 plants from the West Indian Burr Gherkins pack, and 6 from the Mexican Sour Gherkins. I will have to replant. Same for the spinach, squashes and melons purchase from Baker Creek. All the other varieties of these seeds, bulk from our local feed store came up wonderfully. The Baker Creek seeds, only a 1 or two plants from a package. Something is wrong with the care and handling of their seed, and I will not purchase from them again. |
I was also wowed by their catalog. I planted 4 8 foot rows of corn and only 12 came up. I thought I got shorted on two different packs of seeds and they replaced them within in 2 weeks. So sorry to hear they are not a good place to shop. |
- Posted by purpleinopp 8b AL (My Page) on Tue, Jul 2, 13 at 11:15
I never did buy any seeds from this company (or any mail-order company) so sorry if it feels like I didn't follow up. My follow up is that there's nothing to report but I have enjoyed the responses and longevity of this discussion. |
- Posted by TheHomeGardenGuy 6 (My Page) on Tue, Jul 23, 13 at 18:55
I'm done w BC. They've screwed up 2 of my orders this year. I ordered purple striped eggplant and ended up with tomato seeds. So I dont have any eggplants to sell at market. I also ordered beefsteak tomato seeds and ended up with a yellow globe tomato similar to yellow queen. Not cool! Looks like Everwilde will be getting the bulk of my seed purchase for now on. I've ordered about as much from them as BC and have had great germination results and all the seed are exactly what I ordered. |
- Posted by happyhelper none (My Page) on Thu, Aug 22, 13 at 19:26
I have had extremely good germination from their seeds. I also enjoy their quarterly magazine. |
I have ordered from them the last 3 or 4 years, almost always ordered over the phone using my credit card. When I tried ordering the other day using this method I was told that there would be a $7 charge extra for ordering over the phone. I did not understand this and still dont, they dont even have a toll free number - which is ok, I am just saying. If they dont want people ordering this way then maybe they should just say so up front instead of trying to charge extra. Does anyone out there think this makes good business sense? If so please put me in the know. I am perplexed. |
- Posted by gardensoiree none (My Page) on Thu, Dec 19, 13 at 19:05
I am generally pleased with Baker Creek because a) plenty of seeds in the packets (saves even more $$$ to purchase the bulk sizes for items like beets, mesclun, carrots, etc.) and in fact some seed packets have 28x more seeds than what I would get at my local nursery from another seed company, b) offerings from great seed producers such as Wild Boar Farms and Frank Morton--while WBF doesn't charge shipping, Frank Morton is $6 for shipping which is fine but if you just want to try some of his seeds you can tack them onto your BC order, c) generally shipping is quick and service is good, d) shipping cost of $3.50 is just plain reasonable, e) I've generally received all the seeds that I've ordered--one time a seed was out of stock after I ordered but other than that fulfillment on both my large orders and small orders has been spot on, and e) germination rates are terrific--I've never been disappointed with germination rates--just to be clear I order fresh seeds each year and I generally get them right in the ground/starter trays or they are sown within 6 months or so. While the glossy catalog might be off-putting for as a waste of paper and/or energy or just printed to drive sales, it is fun to browse and you can always pass it on to a friend. Some catalogs are only a list and well I must say that I don't get as excited about those lists as the BC catalog. It can be helpful to have more than a website as I can't mark up a website or easily compare seed offerings. It is my understanding that they now only take phone orders with expedited shipping--makes sense to me as the prices are already terrific. To save the $ mail the order in or order online. I would rather shipping stay reasonable for the rest of us. |
- Posted by desertdance Sunset Zone 19, 9a (My Page) on Sun, Dec 29, 13 at 14:19
I was glad to find this thread today. I was reading the vendor rating board, and was horrified with all the bad reviews. This is the first year in our new home, and I have dozens of spots to have a vegetable garden on this rocky hillside. I searched for seed vendors online and found Baker Creek. I wish I had ordered more because I forgot summer squashes and tomatoes. I might just try planting tomato seeds from the beefsteaks and roma's I buy at the grocery. Regardless, the reviews here are comforting. I didn't spend much... $21.00, but I'm happy I chose this vendor. Thanks for all the above opinions! I'm so excited for spring to come!! |
Desertdance, You would probably have some success planting seeds from tomatoes you got at the grocery, but they are likely hybrids and not heirlooms -- they would not come up "true" to the parent. My advice is if you want to do that, go to farmers' markets and specifically ask for heirloom tomatoes. |
- Posted by HotHabaneroLady 7a Central MD (My Page) on Sat, Feb 15, 14 at 9:14
I discovered them last year. This year they are supplying about 60-70% of my seeds. I love the variety, the prices, the fact that they only sell heirlooms, and the fact that I can buy things a little off the beaten path. But it's too soon to see how well the seeds will do. Angie |
I've ordered all my vegetable seeds from Baker Creek every year for three years, now. Tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, squash, marigolds, cucumbers, some other odds and ends. I've gotten to know some of my favorite varieties through BC, and I love 'em. You can't beat the selection, they always give you lots of seeds in each packet (at least two or three times the minimum number printed on the back, sometimes even more), and with very few exceptions I've found the germination rates to be very high. Especially as I've improved my germination methods (less wet towels in a baggie, more trays of vermiculite). Also, they're one of the few online seed companies I've been able to find that take Paypal, which is handy. |
Just got my new book, Best book and place I found for seeds. |
- Posted by Catherine593 none (My Page) on Fri, Mar 14, 14 at 17:11
I have a small vegetable garden and switched over to using heirloom seeds last year for the first time. After checking reviews, I ordered all my seeds from Baker Creek and had very mixed results. I planted the same vegetables I normally plant and our summer was pretty much like usual. But I had VERY poor results from the broccoli (no heads formed at all), pickling cucumbers (got about 5 cukes from 2 plants), zucchini of all things (a total of 3 from 2 plants), and green peppers (I got 1 pepper the size of an infant's fist from 6 plants). My bush beans, cabbage, carrots, lettuce and tomatoes did OK. Jalapenos did OK, but the fruit had just started forming about the time I expected to be picking mature fruit. I'm late ordering my seeds this year, and I'm very hesitant to order from Baker Creek again, since I'm unsure if it was something I did/didn't do, if my expectations of heirloom seeds was too high, or if it was a problem with the seeds. I just don't want to put that amount of work into my garden again only to be so disappointed. |
We were big fans. We used to go to their huge annual "campout". We're kind of slow. After a few years, we asked why we were camping in a field full of fresh cow patties, but saw no cows. And were restricted to vegetarian food [very good, but still, on a cattle farm…]. Then we began to ask about the gardens they kind of bragged about, but were nowhere in sight, not even up or down Baker Creek. As the years went by, the staff costumes got, well, kind of over the top. One April, there was a booth selling "local" strawberries [this is the Missouri Ozarks, no berries 'til much later]. The year that "Jere" showed up dressed like The Man in the Yellow Hat from Curious George was our last campout. We continued to go, but not camp. The [fake] seed store kept getting bigger, while we learned the hard way that there were only a few reliable vendors [Bean Mountain from Arkansas and some others] And, the cow field, the lack of [annually promised] gardens that never materialized, the expanding "show biz" type atmosphere,,,we finally saw the light. Mr. Gettle is a marketing genius who rode in to town on the wagon of fright driven by gmo development and over-use of herbicides/pesticides on food plants. His showroom is the fake hillbilly town plopped down in front of an old restored [for show] farmhouse. Then I saw a magazine article about his purchase of [I think] Ferry Seed Co. complete with photo of Jere and Emmilee in quaint, pilgrim/old-timey costumes. The costumes, the lack of any gardens, hiding the cows [but not the plops], the silly town and the silly shows, all add up to…us sticking with Seed Savers. |
I agree with the folks who mention the whack-a-doodle politics, marketing, and fear mongering, if any of you have been to their forums you'll see what I mean. From what I have see, about a 1/3 of the topics are about GMO, another 1/3 is climate change and very little in the way of actually growing plants. I guess they have their customer base. That being said, I like their variety. They have a great selection to choose from and for the most part, I have not been too disappointed with the product. I will continue ordering from them for those reasons alone. I don't ever, and will never only use one seed source. I also like SSE a lot. They also have great variety (even for non members like me) and a good product. I will also continue to order from them as well. I also use seeds from any number of sources that include Ferry Morse and Burpee to Botanical Interests and Lake Valley. I also don't grow ALL heirlooms, if I see a hybrid I like, I plant it. |
- Posted by Slimy_Okra 2b (My Page) on Fri, Apr 18, 14 at 11:13
Mixed. They offer a very nice and interesting selection of stuff but the viability of some of their seeds is quite low. The okra seeds I ordered never germinated, while other vendors' seeds did. It could have been a one-off event though, because that was the only time I ordered okra from them. |
Their catalog is fun to browse through, but after a few years I stopped ordering from BC. Why? Low germination, lack of variety info on packets, started getting sick of the political stuff inserted all over the catalog. Now I don't even get the catalog anymore. Oh well. |
ordered my seeds March 28 still have not received them, shipping is slow for Canada orders. Will order from Canada company next time, here's a list of 230+ companies supplying heirloom / non-GMO / organic seeds http://www.off-grid.info/food-independence/heirloom-seed-suppliers.html |
received package today, ordered March 28, shipped April 10, that's 9 business days after my order. |
I ordered a large variety of seeds, both flowers and veggie. I saw about a 5-10% germination rate, with about 1/3rd of what I ordered not having a single germinating seed. When the first round seemed to fail, I replanted. Those have failed as well. When I look at my trays of tomatoes and peppers, the empty rows are all Baker Creek. I wonder if something happened to the envelope that held my order, like it was exposed to extreme heat. I have never had such poor results. I wish I had found a different source for my peppers when the seeds failed the first time. |
- Posted by Micropachysaurus none (My Page) on Thu, May 1, 14 at 20:31
I would highly recommend it! They have such a selection, shipping is only 3$ to Canada, the seeds had a very high germination rate( except for 1 tomato variety), the staff are very friendly and helpful! And the packaging is pretty cool, which is a nice bonus. |
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Reviewed Kentucky Lemonade
Apr 15, 2011 in Food Network Community Toolbox on FoodNetwork.com
"How can this be called "Kentucky" Lemonade? Jack Daniels is a Tennessee whiskey and therefore makes this drink no longer associated with Kentucky. Next time, use your brain and recommend a BOURBON to mix with it. Such as Bulleit, Woodford Reserve, Buffalo Trace, Blanton's, Noah's Mill, Eagle Rare, or even our revered seven-dollar-a-fifth Kentucky..."

subset: commoncrawl


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Evaluation Software (1)
ADP1053 Software
This software is used to program the ADP1053. It is truly graphic and interactive. Power design engineers with no prior programming experience can use the software to monitor and quickly adjust functions like PWM timings, frequency, filter settings, protection limits, etc.-
ADP1053 Setup V2.11.17 for VB.NET
Setup and installation files for the ADP1053 GUI.
ADP1053 Setup V2.11.17 for VB.NET


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Tue, Aug 15, 06 at 9:57
I have three 4 foot blue junipers to give away; they have been in the ground for almost 3 years but have never done well. Now we have a problem with hawthorn rust so the junipers have to go. They are very sickly looking but alive and have some new growth. Any one want to take a chance on nursing them back to health? They came from Oakland nursery in Columbus, which is where I am. I will be digging them out this weekend. |
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Wish I had been on-line a couple of months ago. Are these gone? Denice |
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In Alexis De Tocqueville's classic 'The Old Regime and the Revolution', the author says the French revolution happened as a result of (not inspite of) an easing of political restrictions.
De Tocqueville proposed that this could be the case with other authoritarian regimes: the point of maximum danger to the ruler comes when the ruled are finally allowed a little space.
So the CPC could be correct in thinking that order is more important than democracy, at least as far as the Party is concerned.
The problem for the CPC is that the internet and communications technologies make information ubiquitous, even in heavily censored societies such as China, and it is not clear whether such regimes are still able to prevent the spread of ideas amongst the people.
Interesting times.
The problem for the CPC is that the internet and communications technologies make information ubiquitous, even in heavily censored societies such as China,
No, it can't. but it prevents sick journalists sensationalizing topics for their own gains, like Zimmerman's case, like rich-own authoritarian media controlled the anger of people towards banks after 2008 financial crisis.
Yes. In today's world trade and investment flows are global. Nations that are plugged into this grid are exposed to global ideas. Censorship by governments is a reflection of its inability to win its own people with its own ideologies. The grand bargain between CPC and its people is waning through the blatant corruptions of the connected and the pricelings, etc.
Hopefully the Chinese people will soon be rid of their corrupt evil killers called the Communist Party and the Red Army goons.
I think that the Chinese elites have already gotten consensus on political reform - meritocracy (alias. democracy with Chinese characteristics), transparency, and rule of law. The difference is SPEED. I understand that many Westerners are missionaries of their "democracy". However, what Westerners don't understand is that they don't know what are URGENT problems in China.
Democracy sounds good but it requires a lot of COMPLIMENTARY ASSETS - accounting and auditing (to ensure that information disclosed by government and officials are reliable), a good legal system (to ensure rule of law), an internal control system (to ensure split of power and to curb corruption).
The most URGENT task for XI Jinping is CURBING CORRUPTION. Most of the Chinese elites clearly know that exposing the wealth of Communist officials and enhancing internal control are must-do things in the near future. No matter how difficult and how many resistance XI Jinping will face in the next 5 years, he must carry out policies to ensure transparency and internal control.
Democracy is never on the top list of must-dos for XI Jinping and for China because democracy has been proved to be useless to curb corruption - as shown in Italy, India, and many democratic countries.
Democracy also requires a free press. China can't go to democracy until it is willing to let the press be free.
In Italy, the free press didn't stop corruption, partly because one of the biggest corrupters bought up (almost) all the press.
(In the US, the press is free, but has become close to worthless, because it reports too much drivel and not nearly enough real information.)
Free press and free speech are different, in case you don't know.
Additional point is that Democracy is very hard in current China. Because Democracy requires that the common pepole have better education background. If without this, the Democracy in China will be turned to another way, which means it will be utilized. Because i am from the village and my parents are farmers in China. i can predict what will happen for those people if we do Democracy.
And i also think it is very hard to only depend on the Communist offical itself to stop the corruption. All the people should supervise the public power. So, internet is a very useful tool. it gives the ordinary people the right of free speech.
That is what I meant - transparency is much better than democracy. Exposing the wealth of Communist officials (transparency) allows the Chinese elites (instead of uneducated farmers) to overview Chinese officials. It is better than allowing ALL Chinese people to overview Chinese officials (that is, democracy) because many Chinese are still not sufficiently knowledgeable to overview Chinese officials.
Transparency means exposing it to everyone more or less, not just the elite. If it was the elite, why should they care if X makes that much. It won't make a difference. Curbing corruption is not that important, its just not. If it was China's corruption would not have gotten worse. And the World Bank studies show it as being worse than India, And releasing Assets its not going to do much good, it never really does. If he goes far enough they will have him exposed for corruption or try to go after him. Its that simple. Anyways he won;t do it because he is part of the system.
Certainly transparency means exposing it to EVERYONE. However, uneducated Chinese will not be able to judge whether the wealth of Chinese officials is earned legally or not. Only Chinese elites can make such judgement.
If China keep its meritocracy - then Chinese elites are able to figure out who is corrupt and who is not.
If China switches to democracy - then the majority of the Chinese (many of them uneducated) will punish WEALTHY Chinese officials - no matter they earn their money via legal methods or not. So democracy does not fit the current situation in China.
Many surveys have shown that most of the Chinese think that curbing corruption is the top1 priority XI Jinping needs to address. Maybe Westerners think that "democracy" is the top1 priority but the general Chinese never put it on the top 10 list.
You can never bet on the CCP leaders with vested interest and their princelings to purge themselves. Hu/Wen leadership has demonstrated no real progress with reforms. Restoration of meritocracy and a proper system of law can hopefully progress with the internet and right now the external press.
As usual you don't know what you are talking about. If the elies were the only one to know then what difference would it make. Nothing. They will still be corrupt as before. The only people capable of making that judgement are police/judges, but unfortunately most judges in China don't have any legal training. Transparency is letting everyone know what is going, If its just the elites its not Transparency.
"If China switches to democracy - then the majority of the Chinese (many of them uneducated) will punish WEALTHY Chinese officials - no matter they earn their money via legal methods or not. So democracy does not fit the current situation in China."
The is a bit rich coming from a lackey of the Communist Party of China. How about you people first start by giving back all the property that you took unlawfully from people in 1949. Is typical mainland Chinese hypocrisy. Its amazing how you people can are so self absorbed and delusional.
"Many surveys have shown that most of the Chinese think that curbing corruption is the top1 priority XI Jinping needs to address. Maybe Westerners think that "democracy" is the top1 priority but the general Chinese never put it on the top 10 list."
No the first priority is ensuring improving living standards, no curbing corruption. Curbing corruption is a means to an end, not the end itself. The reason why corruption is a concern is because its starting to seriously effect China's growth. Come on it has been like this for 30 years. Corruption is not the end of the world, it only could become a problem if the Chinese economy sinks. But if the CPC faces a recession (ie negative growth), and the Chinese revolt, then frankly the Chinese people are pretty selfish. It takes alot to topple a government like the CPC, China would ahve to go through a Depression, before they lose their credibility. Its just a show, that you people are silly enough to believe in. If China was to grow at 3-4% a year for the next 20 yeas, will the CPC be overthrow. No it won't even if it was corrupt as i is now.
China won't go the way of the Arab Spring, primarily because of no opposition, China is a big country. Big decentralized
countries like China/India can take a lot of crap.
The publication of photos of Mr. Xi and other members of the Politburo and their families reminds me of one Chinese saying that goes like ' domestic sales of goods originally produced for export' meaning what is good in quality is sold first of all for overseas market before it is consumed by consumers at home. The photos of the new leaders with their families are published by Xinhua news agency in English first and then appear on Chinese language media, which at least removes doubts from ordinary Chinese about what family they were born into or who their family members are. This may be the first step towards transparency if any. Another piece of news that our TE correspondent missed to report was his motorcade was blocked by traffic lights in Beijing when Mr. Li Keqiang was on his route to attend an important conference.
And of course what the politburo should do is far from just to show who their family members are or how they will be treated when taking their official inspection tours. In the year 2013, the most significant approach to anti-corruption is to implement official property report system with public supervision. Without supervision from without, there is no castigation from within the CCP. One case in point is how Mr. Bo Xilai is tried in this regard. Power without control is most dangerous.
The second advance towards reform is how to spur domestic consumption, which is the key to sustainability of China's economic development. Huge government investment has been proved wide of the mark ever since the year 2008 in infrastructure, and what concerns all the members of the Politburo should be an adjustment of development model with urbanization as the core. Compared to the developed nations, the number of rural populations in China totals that of the whole populations less than 50 %, which leaves much room for urbanization drive. Could income of both rural and urban citizens be doubled by 2020?
The third move forward is how to keep both stability and prosperity. In its transition period from planned economy to free market, the mot pressing challenge China is faced with is the would-be social chaos resulting from radical changes that would squeeze interests of various involved groups. Take the reform on medical service on state expense. Public servants in China are entitled to free medical care, which is denounced by ordinary employees who have to buy insurance on their own pocket. But until now, all measures taken to reform on this free medicine are nothing but government subsidy in replace of medical insurance covering ordinary employees.
The fourth step forwards is how to settle disputes on waters and islands with neighboring countries in 2013. no one is in hope of a war to solve issues with his neighbors, and so is China as a country. With Mr. Obama's 'rebalance' Asia and Mr. Abe's stance on the Diaoyus, what China should take into consideration is long term benefit rather than short term interests as Mr. Deng pointed out the issue of the Diaoyus could remain to be settled until the next generation provided that Japanese government had not nationalized the disputed island.
'empty talks would lead the country astray, and hard work can rejuvenate the nation. '
I'd like to comment on the 'second advance' you recommend, I think that spurring consumption is important but it should not be the priority of China. First of all, consumption has been steadily increasing in China and will continue to do so with generations to come. This is because there is a gradual loss of values in China dangerously leaving money as the dominant value. The politburo is very much aware of this problem and has been taking steps towards re-educating confucian values to the Chinese (which is another topic altogether). An example of this is the censorship of the word luxury in advertisement. So my first argument is that consumption is already increasing on its own. Furthermore, when you talk about consumption, you must measure it to the scale of China, a 1% increase in the yearly consumption of beer of the chinese would require the equivalent of the whole wheat harvest of a country like Norway. So an increase in consumption is good but in China, be careful what you wish for.
Lastly, one must remember that savings are the main drivers of investment in an economy and they are one of the reasons explaining China's rapid growth. If consumption is increasing as it is, why encourage it? Encouraging consumption will enable banks to offer lower interest loans, gradually attract more risk and fall into a short-term economic perspective similar to that of consumerism in the US. Instead, China should let consumption rise on its own while implementing long-term economic plans to increase savings (in the 50 years horizon). This is how China will avoid falling into the trap of consuming more and more in order to gain an every-year lower and lower incremental growth.
I will add that the world has finite resources and increasing consumption is certainly not the sustainable long-term option. China knows that, you talk about urbanization, the Politburo signed a contract with architect William McDonough, a world-renowned sustainability architect to create eco-cities. The right way to go for China is not by encouraging consumption but adopting a long-term view of their economy to cope with tomorrows challenges.
Thanks to your reasonable comments.
In 2011, savings deposits of urban and rural residents amount to 33 trillion RMB, roughly equaling to USD 5 trillion; GDP of the same year comes up to 47 trillion RMB, about USD 7 trillion , which explains how hardworking and thrifty Chinese people are; on the other hand, suggests that there is huge potentiality for consumption. I meant to say consumption rather than over-consumption.
Chinese people are accustomed to leading a frugal life with every penny saved for either supporting their offspring or providing for themselves when they are aged. Unlike mature market economies, China has not established its own sound security network to cover its citizens, and that's why people still keep to their habit of saving more than spending. There are few in China who spend what should be spent tomorrow today like their American counterparts have done when it comes to consumption.
With that said, consumption in China remains a driving force for economic growth in time to come.
And of course, due attention should be directed to eco-balance and adopting a long time policy to cope with chanllenges in future.
I do not expect rapid change in Mr Xi's administration unless something like Arab-spring happen ,as THE ECOMOMIEST said ,"stability is the age-old excuse from reforming".
what i got to say is that the goverment should be the last dynasty exit in China,and the f*** portray of MAO should be took down!
Arab Spring???? you meant Arab Winter... and the Chinese don't want that.
And if democracy turns out to be the kind of demo-crazy like India, that's the last thing they need.
China will eventually turn into a kind of representive government but won't be the Liberal Democracy as in the West.
China has already moved faster than almost every other developing countries ,why do the Chinese need the brainless Arab spring ? why they give up their peaceful ,safe and better lives only because the West say China is a dictatorial regime,most of the westerners only can get the info from their stupid media and they can not speak and read Chinese so it's really hard for them to do the same thing like me surfing the foreign websites and get the info by myself then do the comparison,maybe the Chinese media cheat me and I know meanwhile western media cheat you and you don't know
'Western media is stupid'...really? I can read and speak Chinese, and have lived in China. Your assumptions about Chinese people's peaceful, safer, and better lives is really subjective, and most would say, ironic. You seem to be a 'angry youth'. It's not about Chinese people 'giving up' their political system because westerners say so, it's about Chinese people pushing for their own rights guaranteed to them by the Chinese constitution.
What right are you talking about?
Right over capital to few rich and big corps;
Right over natural resource to few rich and big corps;
Right over information to rich own media;
Right to greedy unions and parasites;
Right to criminals.
This is not the right you talk about, but it is the right in reality.
You are still brainwashed by your authoritarian media. Please associate what you are told by authoritarian media to what is going on in real world.
See what happened in India?
What you believe never deliver justice in poor countries, people in rich world can ESCAPE the unjustice because of economic opportunities, not beautifully written language.
I was talking about the rights in the Chinese constitution. I take it that your are trying to say that America has no rights? While they do have their problems, that's not what this topic, nor my post is about. Stay on topic please.
and you really seem to be a 'angry bird',do we really need to get our target through the way to sacrifice yourself ?we can do it peacefully without 'arab spring'and we are doing it now.
I don't care much what is written on paper and I didn't deny the political rights in China were suppressed.
When you say "Stay on topic", obviously you don't care the result if the constitution rights are carried out as it is written.
I merely show you the results, which is what Chinese care most.
i was referring to 愤青。I said nothing about the arab spring. I realize that arguing with the 五毛党is pointless, so have a nice life. I'm out.
I basically agree with chinerican,China has alread moved faster than almost every other developing countries,what you want? if you have a dream of making big money overnight,it will be very unrealistic,unless you can give us a example that there is a developing country can do better than China in same situation in the world,no matter dictatorship and democracy it is.Certainly you aren't a "angry youth",you are a "angry aged".Travel around the world and come back to China,then tell us somethings about your answer.
I don't agree that "Western media is stupid",after all,western media just as any other foreigh organisations or foreigners who can not know more and better than Chinese themselves.
Agree. While the West has problems and the Western media not perfect, it does not make China superior. The aspirations of the Chinese people are undermined by vested interests in the Party. It is not pro-Western democracy that is wanted. It is anti-corruption and the wealth that accrues to the princelings that is wanted. Reforms ? There will be no courage to carry them out except on a small scale.
really?! i don't think so,buddy!why don't we just wait and see!
i am completely agree with you!
why don't you talk about TAIWAN ,SINGAPORE ,SOUTH KOREAN!!!
TAIWANESE put their own ex-president in jail! And that the right they have ,what rights did you have in China??
i did't have a dream of making big money overnight! i just want my right of freedom back,and more justice in society !
The picture shows Jinping's second wife, the Peony Fairy, right? Whatever happened to his first wife? Where is she nowadays? Just curious since China is reforming, de-corrupting and opening-up the private lives and the bank accounts of the top CPC leaders (including their extended families?) As Iching88 pointed out one should start IMO by exposing all the "overseas connexions" first.
It is indeed charming to see the friendly, disarming public façades (not to mention the "Rejuvenating Chinese Dreams") of the seven Members of the Standing Committee of the Politburo of the CPC (is 7 considered a lucky number in China? but 4 is bad, right?). Well, someday we might have Paparazzi following them to get more "revelations", right?
Good questions,but I think somethings in reform need some time for every body including the leaders.Many people are glad to see some progress since the new leader Xijinping takes office.Many measures and actions are appreciated by general public.At least,China highest leading team,led by Chairman Xi,seem like more open-minded and pragmatic.They should can do better than predecessors.
By the way,I think we should respect privacy right,no matter he or she is, from highest leader to ordinary people.
what you said is just like your name :silent night, what leaders do is just hopeless, never ever can the top-leaders give you democracy, only if you struggle for yourself
what you said is just like your name :silent night, what leaders do is just hopeless, never ever can the top-leaders give you democracy, only if you struggle for yourself
Who are on top of food chain in "free" world?
Go try to fight against them and see what you get.
You maybe too childish?
hopeless world is handed by more and more guys just like you, by the way, people who thought as you guys called "wumao" in chinese means you are hired by authority as well as zombie,we see nothing but deperate from your brain
9 to 7 was a way to keep out the reformers
The last time I checked, the number 8 was considered a lucky number in China.
According to wiki, XJP's former wife was the daughter of Chinese ambassador to UK in the 80s.
Worked for Taiwan -Hong Kong wants it but China blocks it. Singaporeans want democracy but the PAP does its best to block it. India--messy but works. Arab Spring in process and very messy but on track.
According to TE's 'Where to be born index', Singapore is at no.6 and HongKong at no.10.
Now would you rather to be born in the above two places or in India, Arab Spring Egypt and Syria?
The world is not only black or white and it is always easy to sit on the sideline and say things you wouldn't have to face the consequences.
India--messy but works? ok,good.I agree.
If Polar Resident is a female polar bear,borned in great democratic India,I am sure that it will scream out in terror when it meet the sexiest men on the street.
Certainly every female polar bear also can get a vote for their husbands.
China needs reform, but should be a rational one instead of an emotional one. Hope that with the help of Mr.Xi, China will become a country with true harmony and stability. And more important, living standard of the entire nation could rise step by step.
aAccording to the World Bank, China's corruption has gotten worse over the last 15 years, and is in fact worse than the likes of India, Sri Lanka etc.
Its more accurate that the Corruption Perception Index the Economist uses, because it takes alot of studies / surveys of corruption.
Eliminating corruption in the type of dictatorship by committee that China has is difficult, because there are large groups of people with a vested interest in the corruption. Asset disclosures for officials helps, helps a bit, but at the end its largely irrelevant, because it depends on the honest of the official.
If you look at the rankings of countries that have low corruption there are only democracies, one man dictatorships / family (Lee Kuan Yew) and the Gulf States (absolute hereditary monarchies) - Kuwait, Qatar and UAE. Let's look at the last two. In these type of setups, the ruler ultimately takes responsibility for all the cockups/corruptions that occur under the system. In contrast in China, with 80 Million CPC members, does any one really believe they can reach a consensus that goes at the system of patronage / advancement.
The Emir of Abu Dubai did not become Emir because of a combination of merit/boot licking/patronage, he is Emir because he was next in line. He does not owe anyone any favors. Xi Jinping became GS not only because he was capable, but largely because of politics. In a country as large as China, there might be 100 people that can replace him. He owes his position in part to people who have become very rich because of corruption.
If the system of meritocracy was so great, why did China have Emperors for over 2000+ years. Why didn't they just let the bureaucrats rule China? No one on the forums or anywhere online has ever answered the question adequately. Dictatorships by Committee don't usually last long, it becomes a democracy or eventually a strong man takes over.
The anti-corruption drive is going to lead to nowhere, as long as there is not well funded independent body tasked with it. I find it distressing that the Western press would cheer what is really vigilante justice. A Party officials sacked because some blogger posted pictures of him wearing an expensive watch? It might be OK under party regulations. Some might call it adhering to the socialist legal system, I call it mob justice. Its the type of justice that Deng wanted to get rid of when he came to power. Unfortunately, it has permeated so deep in mainland Chinese society it will take generations to get rid of. Some of our mainland Chinese posters call China a meritocracy, when the very legal system allows (and explicitly allows it) this type of charade.
How can you can China a meritocracy when many senior judges have no legal training?
I always believe that structure determines how an organization works internally more than culture. Anyone who works for a law firm, engineering firm, etc, knows all around the world, they are more or less structured the same way. The same applies for hospitals, universities, advertising companies.
China has adopted a system of government from the Soviets, whether executive, judicial, legislative. There are some differences, but its definitely more similar to the Soviet system than Taiwan during the KMT. One can gain a lot of understanding of the "socialist system" used in China today by reading the Russian Civil War from 1917-1922. All the Socialist structures originate there, and if you want to go back further, you can go back as far as the French Revolution of 1789.
What you mean? You want China to catch up with India's corruption's standard,higher standard than China, by your democratic panacea or piles of princes or kings just as the Gulf States? which country want to follow? I am sure that China won't.because we needn't more princes or kings,we also believe that China can catch up with India's corruption's rank in 100 year.
"If the system of meritocracy was so great, why did China have Emperors for over 2000+ years. Why didn't they just let the bureaucrats rule China? No one on the forums or anywhere online has ever answered the question adequately".
This simple question has been answered many times. The Chinese are very pragmatic. Which system works well, then they adopt which system.
Chinese emperors failed to fight against Western imperialists and Japanese, so Chinese nationalists and Communists arose. The Chinese nationalists failed to curb corruption and take care of the poor, so they were driven to Taiwan by the Chinese Communists. Chinese left-wing Communists failed to develop economy, so they were deprived of the power and left room for DENG Xiaoping. DENG Xiaoping adopted meritocracy instead of dictatorship. It works well for China till now. If meritocracy does not work in the future, then the Chinese will reject it mercilessly. However, if it is still works well, then the Chinese will reject democracy mercilessly - Simple.
Always the pragmatism argument. The reason why it failed, because those Chinese Emperors, were Manchus, and spent alot of money and lives trying to preserve their rule against Han Chinese. I am not stupid, don;t give me those trite answers. If it was a Han Dynasty I doubt there would have been a Taiping Rebellion / White Lotus Rebellion. It was these two rebellions that sapped China of its strength. Seriously, do you really think the Opium War even compares to Taiping Rebellion.
Read the World Bank indicators. They are saying corruption in China is worse than India, I am not the one saying it. I said that the countries that have the least corruption are democracies (Western) and one man dictatorships/monarchies. There are no collective style leaderships among the least corrupt.
It shows you don't distasteful of not just democracy, but even of other authoritarian governments, like monarchies. Why the hate? What is wrong with a monarchy? China has been ruled by Emperors for 4000 years. What is wrong with that? Its not something that is alien that China. Are you saying that the CPC is superior to a system of government that has served China well for 2000+ years? Did I even argue about democracy? I just said that the system that China has today will be short lived, because the type of government that China has today is historically shown to be unstable throughout the world and even China itself.
China itself has had rule by such a system in its past, ie triumvirates during the Han Dynasty, but it did not last for a very short time. There was conflicts between the co-regents.
You are angry because I don't offer the standard BS of democracy is good etc, but I argue that to stamp out corruption, China needs a strong man (ie Mao Tse Tung/King). You have to argue what its a bad idea, why the current system is better.
Deng Xiaoping never adopted meritocracy, read all his speeches, he does not mention meritocracy at all. Read the Constitution, whee does it say that China is a meritocracy? It does not say its a meritocracy.
You need to use "collective leadership" (集体领导) and "democracy among the Communist Party" (党内民主) instead of meritocracy (精英政治) to search for his thought.
Do you know why did Taiping rebellion arise? A key reason is that the Chinese people were disappointed on Qing Kingdom's failure to fight against Western powers. See Wiki:
"China, under the Qing Dynasty in the mid-19th century, suffered a series of natural disasters, economic problems and defeats at the hands of the Western powers; in particular, the humiliating defeat in 1842 by the United Kingdom in the First Opium War. The Qing government, led by ethnic Manchus, were seen by much of the Chinese population, who were mainly Han Chinese, as an ineffective and corrupt foreign regime. "
China Eagle _- reason commands + how could one Emperor with his harems full of the most beautiful of Asia and foreigners' women have ever ever under any Dynasty had the time to rule China alone without the help of the castrated bureaucrats.
China is a nation and a people like many countries are. Whether free or slave or socialist or individualist expect these simple things to change so long as time flows. Meritocracy today and dictatorship tomorrow means litle in the eternal flow of the TAO where men and women are full of one another and the common nature they share with all other BEINGS ! What the bird kissy do suggest is that the Chinese expel the foreigners MARX & SMITH & Even those misunderstanding of Christ and GOD and those illegitimate thoughts that the Ancestors are not for REAL !
You are twisting the wikipedia article. If the Taiping rebellion was really anti-Western, why the hell did Hong Xiuquan call himself the brother of Jesus Christ? The paragraph gives the context in which it happened, not Hong's motive. Please read carefully
If you read further into the wikipedia article, Here is his motives
". After studying the material, Hong Xiuquan claimed that the illness he had following his imperial examinations was in fact a vision to the effect that he was the younger brother of Jesus, who was sent to rid China of the "devils," including both the corrupt Manchu rulers and the teachings of Confucius. After this vision, he felt it was his duty to spread his interpretation of Christianity and overthrow Manchu rule. Hong's associate Yang Xiuqing was a former firewood merchant from Guangxi, who claimed to be able to act as a voice of God, in order to direct the people and gain political power"
It was the Taiping Rebellion, not the West that broke tha back of the Qing Dynasty. The sad thing is the Taiping Rebllion is so poorly taught., but it was the most important event in Chinese history during 19th century. Far more important than Opium Wars by a hundred times. The warlordism of the 1910-20s in Chian was caused by the Taiping Rebellion. China's economy shrank by 50% during the Taiping Rebellion.
Yes the Opium War caused the Taiping Rebellion, but not in the way you see it. If Hong was not introduce to Christianity by missionaries (that came about as a result of the Opium War) there would not have been a Taiping Rebellion. If there was no Taiping Rebellion, the Qing would most likely have not fallen.
Taiping Rebellion was not the Boxer Rebellion, don't confuse the two. It was 100 times more destructive than the Boxer Rebellion. It was not anti-Western or that concerned with the West.
The Taiping Rebellion was the largest war in the 19th century in the World. It was China`s first Total War. It was the first time in history were there was mass mobilization of females to fight. Yet in China its treated as side show to the Opium Wars, in which maybe 10,000 people died (largely soldiers)
Collective leadership is meritocracy, and its not really new. That is how Communist Parties are supposed to function.
[Bismarck888in reply to 5th, 07:07
Always the pragmatism argument. The reason why it failed, because those Chinese Emperors, were Manchus, and spent a lot of money and lives trying to preserve their rule against Han Chinese.]
I am sure the the Manchus did that but that only give the Rebels an extra reason for their actions.
[ I am not stupid, don't give me those trite answers. If it was a Han Dynasty I doubt there would have been a Taiping Rebellion / White Lotus Rebellion.]
There might not have been specifically called "Taiping Rebellion / White Lotus Rebellion" but there were REBELLIONS at the end of the Han Dynasty(ies). How else was the Han replaced by Sui anyway? I think you knowledge in History is excellent but you tend to choose bits of history to suit you own prejudice.
There were rebellions at the end of every dynasty (including the Han and the Qing) because the government had become so incompetent that the normally very meek Chinese peasantry HAD to rise up and overthrow it in the hope of getting a better one. If the current CCP government is not careful, it will get the same treatment as well-- Except it won't be from the peasantry, which is being killed off by industrialisation-- by by whatever the new working/producing class that will come into existence (industrial workers, I guess). The fact that Manchus was considered "foreign" had relatively little cause. The Brits in Hong Kong was certainly far more "foreign" that the Manchus on the Mainland but there was no "Taiping Rebellion / White Lotus Rebellion" style rebellion of any significant size. Chinese tends accept whatever government which manages to maintain social stability and economic growth.
[It was these two rebellions that sapped China of its strength. Seriously, do you really think the Opium War even compares to Taiping Rebellion.]
You are most probably right. It is a shame that neither succeeded. Otherwise, China's suffering might have been shorten by a century.
I think you are making the incorrect assessment that the Manchus = Han. If you look at the ethnic Han Chinese dynasties, revolts don't happen until the end (last 30-40 years). 50% of the time the Qing were in control, it was either conquest or facing serious Rebellion. So to treat the Manchus just like another ethnic Han dynasty is inaccurate. White Lotus Rebellion started in 1790, 120 years before the eventually fall, and about 100 years after the Qing conquered all of China. The ethnic component plays a big part. While the Manchus were less foreign than the Europeans, but so are the Japanese. When the British took control of Hong Kong, they bought land from farmers to setup government offices. How did the Manchus do it when they setup garrison cities in key Chinese cities. Simple, they just kicked people out and setup their garrison towns. They killed tens of Millions of Han Chinese during the initial conquest. But let's be frank, they were a very cruel and nasty people, and what they did to Han Chinese during the invasion and afterwards, will put the what the Europeans did to shame.
Unlike the Mongols, they tried to force their customs on the Chinese, banning certain Han Chinese clothing, making Chinese males wear the queue. The whole concept of giving foreign "concession" to the Europeans, sounds alot like the Garrison towns for the Manchus found in most Chinese cities. When you already have different laws for Manchu/Han, how difficult is it to allow the Europeans their own laws?
What kind of democracy do we need?
When it comes to democracy and freedom, the US and certain western countries are set up as examples for us to refer to; but nonetheless what democracy and freedom really represent themselves in those countries?
1. Elections only occur every few years which implies that some wronged policy has to remain unsolved until the next president comes to office; ( See how the two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were launched and ended during periods of Bush's distraction and Obama's term).
2. with two or multiparty taking turns in power, there are certainly a great number of people who feel disappointed over each general election; ( See how the electoral college works and winner-takes-all policy is implemented in the US.)
3. There is a low rate of voters who turn out to cast their votes. With no political orientation towards any group that is to make a cabinet, many citizens in the western countries are declined to register; (There is one nation Australia among the very few countries in the world that voting is enforced and yet less than 90 percent participation is the norm. Many qualified voters do not register to vote or if registered just pay a small fine to stay away from voting. In other Western democracies, voter turn out rate is rather much lower than this. In the 90's, just about 50 percent of all US voters bothered to cast their vote for the presidency.)
4.Some electoral systems allow political parties of extreme views to gain influences or gain political power as part of a government to the detriment of the majority of the nation and great majority of the public; ( Germany had the western electoral scheme in function that allowed the Nazi Party to be the largest. Abe's cabinet, which has made an observable right turn, is voted by its democratic voters.)
5.In some Western democracies, the electoral systems do not provide any comfort that no evil regimes will result; Western democracy never guarantees most people's attitudes are reflected by the elected representatives and government policies;(See 'gun control' in the US and 'rape' in India a so called the most populated democratic country in the world.)
What freedom do we want?
Freedom should have its own boundaries, and one's thorough freedom is established at the cost of other's spheres of independence. In a society ruled by law, each citizen has to sacrifice part of his own freedom to the benefit of others' liberty.
During the Cultural Revolution in China, everyone was free to do or say whatever he or she was in desire to perform or utter with no law or government to interfere as Mao himself declared to be lawless in hope of breaking an 'old' regime and setting up a new one on the principle of continuous revolution under the proletarian dictatorship. There was no governance, no police, no court, let alone procurator organs at work, and there were free airing one's views, Big Character Posters and mass debates in every town and village with violence as the final means to settle the dispute. Is that the freedom we Chinese want?
Freedom we are entitled to enjoy should be put under the law framework that doesn't undermine the national stability. It's hard to imagine what a country like China would become if it were to go back in time to Cultural Revolution that was chock-a-block with radical social changes.
ICHING .. five free men _ voting out of a population of millions of bought men and slaves should be a more reliable gauge of a people's will than who wins a political office + we believe.
Once again doing the fallacious "China vs. Western democracy"
China with democracy is Taiwan. Not the CR. And Taiwan remains richer, safer, healthier and better educated than the mainland.
That should be what China strives for: one party authoritarian rule that shifts to multiparty democracy.
How about comparing Taiwan to Singapore? with closer population and developement stage?
Comparing 23 million Taiwan to 1.35 billion mainland is meaningless. Try comparing Shanghai with the same population and area size and see how much Taiwan is better?
In fact, Shanghai's HDI rating is higher than Taiwan.
China is working toward richer, safer, healthier and better educated.
Ever try pushing a 1kg cart and a 5ton cart up the road? See the difference in time and effort?
Shanghai's statistics are skewed because the official ones only count legal residents. This means that the millions of poor migrant workers who are vital to the economy don't show up when calculating average income, education, life expectancy etc.
But even Singapore would be ok for China to strive for an ELECTED one party state. If they really have the 85% approval rating, then the CCP should have no problem maintaining its position.
what do you mean by ELECTED one party state? Please teach me how can a one party state be ELECTED?
you sound like an advocate for Taiwan political system, which i think is chaotic. Could you please explain to me the shooting cases of Chen Shuibian and Lian Shenwen?
For example, if the United States in 2016 elected 85 democrats to the senate, a democratic president and 300+ Democratic representatives, that would be a one party state, but one that came about via elections.
Singapore is an elected one party state, the PAP has to stand for elections, (which they win, but not always.)
This is what you have to understand about the Taiwan political system, there is a lot of drama that actually doesn't affect anything.
20 years ago, people said "Taipei is dirty and polluted" so the politicians put parks on all the river banks. Then people said, "Traffic is horrible" so the government built a new subway. Then people said, "We have no health insurance" so the government put in a national health care system.
(Taiwan, the white terror, capitalist, side of the civil war has socialized medicine while the mainland doesn't. Worst. communists. ever. Don't use poverty as an excuse. Cuba is dirt poor and they do socialized medicine)
So there are fistfights in the legislature, broken ribs over ECFA, Li Ao once came in with a Guy Fawkes mask and started spraying his fellow legislators with tear gas.
But all that chaos doesn't actually have any effect on the government's ability to get stuff done. Taiwan remains richer, healthier, and safer than the mainland.
I've lived in both China and Taiwan and while I thought China was great, (and it's a much better place to visit) Taiwan is a much better place to live. (though China has better food.)
Assuming your 'poor migrant workers' part is valid, but Shanghai has only been 'opened up' for the last 33 years while Taiwan has been developing since 1949 with tons of US support.
I am quite sure Shanghai will catch up with Taiwan in about a decade, not the 64 years Taiwan needed.
In fact, Taiwan prospered while it was under dictatorship (Chiang Ching-Kuo) in the 70s and 80s and had become one of the four Asian Tigers. It has become a kitten since Chen Shui-bian and relies on trade with the mainland and mainlanders tourists.
Singapore may have the symbolic elections, but it is the same ruling PAP party since 1959. That is 53 years in power, while the CPP is 63 years.
If China holds a election today, the result will be the same. The singing of Red songs were quite popular just not too long ago. There are no qualified parties that can challenge the CCP at the moment. Taiwan's DPP didn't just pop up from nowhere. It takes decades to build up a qualified ruling party and even then there was chaos as lynnwing already pointed out.
If China is so great, why don't you become go back and become a CPC member. They can sure use your talents.
Mainlanders love to pretend that all of Taiwan's growth happened under authoritarianism, because that supports the CCP's self serving fiction that the party is the only thing safeguarding growth.
As for your story about Taiwan's being a great economy only under dictatorship. That's remarkably easy to check. If you're right, a graph of Taiwan's GDP per capita from 1980 to now, would have a steep upward slope from 1980 to 1987 (the lifting of martial law) followed by a gradual leveling out as democracy took hold and the chaos you so decry destroyed the "prosperity."
Let's look at that graph!
But here's a graph of Taiwan's GDP per capita (along with Korea's) growth from 1980 to 2012.
As you can see, there's actually very little growth during the 80's until 1987 when things start shooting upwards. (Explain to me how swiftly rising GDP per capita is the opposite of prosperity.) There's a dip in 1997 from the Asian financial crisis, and then another one in 2008 from the most recent round of unpleasantness.
See what I suspect is that you were fed a line of pro dictatorship BS and you just stuck it up here without checking.
Thank you. Come again when you have actual data to show that that democracy destroyed Taiwan's economy.
Singapore's elections are not symbolic. Opposition parties actually oppose and they do win seats and the need to be better than the opposition acts as a check on the PAP's behavior since there is the possibility, albeit remote, of losing seats. But as I said, the CCP would probably win, so why not have them? The DPP in Taiwan started out as "non party" when non KMT parties were banned. But it could happen because the Taiwan started allowing local elections in the late 70's.
Bismarck, learn some manner would you? I thought you were more than 12, but I guess i am wrong.
And please learn to read while you are at it. Where did I say the CCP is 'so great'?
Calm down N/C, The annual economic growth of Taiwan from 1952 to 1987 was 6.4%, second only to Japan. Just google it.
When do you think Taiwan has become one of the Asian Tigers?
High GDP growth depends on a lot of factors. One of them is the exchange rate, a higher base value and cheaper import goods.
What was the annual economic growth for the last 15 years in Taiwan? It has improved a bit since Ma's open up to the mainland.
And please don't put words in my month. I never said economic slow down was due solely to democracy. But partisan politics did hinder growth, just ask any educated Taiwanes.
For Singapore, if the same party rules for the last 53 years, it is not mutliparty system, doesn't matter how you spin it.
The PAP has done a good job keeping the other parties down so that they can't challenge it.
BTW, I am not a mainlander, in case this mindset affects your thinking.
The last 15 years includes the Asian financial crisis and the 2008 shock. It'll be lower as a result.
But don't backtrack now. You called Taiwan a "kitten." And blamed it on Chen Shui bian. And those same partisan politics are exactly why Taiwan has National Health Insurance and good environmental laws.
As for diminishing Taiwan because it trades with the mainland, so what? It should not trade with the largest country nearby? Canada's biggest trading partner is the United States, doesn't mean it's not a country. That's actually the future that no one seems to understand. Two countries can start out as one country, share a language, a culture and a border and still be forever separate.
My mistake and apologies.
Yes, I said Taiwan has become a kitten because of Chen Shui Bian but Singapore and S. Korea are still prospering. Chen worked hard for his own pocket while the economy was slowing down due to his policies toward the mainland. Ma has slowly turned this around. Again, ask any educated Taiwanese to see if they agree with me. Why do you think Chen has been sitting in his 'personal office' in the last four years?
Good environmental laws from Chen Shui Bien? where? I know there was 'supposed' be a bullet that passed by his belly and gave him the second term.
I have no problem of Taiwan trading with the mainland at all. But Taiwan with the mainland is not the same as Canada and the US. Even Ma says so.
And there is no need for apology. That was just to clear your mind a bit.
Look at the graph, Chen was president from 2000 to 2008, the graph does not show stagnation.
As for Ma, the "Canada scenario" relies on Taiwan running out the clock while assuring China that reunification is eventual and imminent. The last thing they want is for China to take more active measures.
The Chinese leadership believes that all they have to do is wait, and they might be right. But if they're wrong, it's still in the best interest of any Taiwanese administration to make them think they're right. If what China is doing now with ECFA and such isn't actually making unification more likely, Taiwan isn't going to tell China.
But the president of the ROC is barred at gunpoint by China from saying anything besides "there is one China." What matters is Taiwan public opinion which remains very much in favor of the status quo.
And I like how you brought up South Korea, another state which made the transition from one party dictatorship to successful democracy with no ill effects.
Which gets back to the point of this thread in the first place, people who compare China to democracies in Europe, America, and India, while conspicuously ignoring the much more successful and culturally similar democracies closer to home.
Democracy does not lead to calamity and actually leads to some good things like the NHI. (If you're not from the mainland you may not have an appreciation of how money grubbing the health system is there. Without cash in hand, you will not be seen.)
Correct. S. Korea had a fairly smooth transition, but only after the Kwangju massacre. Up to 2000 people died. And that was with big brother US watching.
The most important factor was S. Korean GDP/cap. was more than double of what is China's today. That's why many people do not agree with China's transition over to full democracy just yet.
I am included.
China will transit slowly when its GDP/cap. reaches near Korean was due to its size.
And India is a perfect comparison for China due to their similar historic background and population size.
Your problem is you are lumping China with Singapore. But are they the same. I think you want to make a case that authoritarianism is better, but are not looking at it comprehensively.
"For Singapore, if the same party rules for the last 53 years, it is not mutliparty system, doesn't matter how you spin it.
The PAP has done a good job keeping the other parties down so that they can't challenge it."
Singapore is a multiparty democracy. Labor has dominated the North of England for longer than the PAP has in Singapore. CDU has ruled it Bavaria longer than the PAP has in Singapore. Sweden, the Social Democrats were in power from 1930-1990, longer than the PAP in Singapore. The PRI in Mexico had been in power for 70 years. So by your definition, Sweden and Mexico are not multiparty democracies.
You are making mistake by lumping Singapore and China together as similar authoritarian system Singapore despite what you think is more similar to Canada/UK, in its political/legal structure than it is to China. The PAP legitimacy arises because they win elections. Their performance helps them win elections. Legitimacy is still determined by elections.
In China they don't accept that political norm. Its a critical difference. During the Cold War, those hybrid authoritarian regimes were all in the Western camp, whether Suharto in Indonesia, Marcos in the Philippines, UMNO in Malaysia, PAP in Singapore. Has the system in Singapore changed from the Cold War? No.
If you objectively go through every key aspect of Singapore's political system, from judicial independence, rule of law, elections. No matter how you spin it, Singapore play the same game as the West, it might be heavily modified, but its still the same game. China refuse to play that game, and that is the frustration of the West. Its not the authoritarian part that bugs the West the most, its China's refusal to accept those "norms".
In what way are India and China similar beyond size? India was directly administered colony for three centuries. China was never directly colonized. India gained independence largely peacefully. China was born after 40 some years of intermittent war.
They do not have a similar background.
You may not be from the mainland but you're copying the mainland habit of pretending that the chief difference between China and India is the political system, and then using that line of reasoning to discredit democracy.
[Bismarck888in reply to hours 47 mins ago
If China is so great, why don't you become go back and become a CPC member. They can sure use your talents.]
Bis, why don't you change your handle to WatchingAmerica?
Other than the size, they both have long historic baggage, they were both feudal societies, they were both very poor with overwhelming illiterate populations, India was directly colonied while China was semi-colonied
And thankyou for mentioning that India gained independence largely peacefully. China was born after 40 some years of intermittent war. So in 1949, India was actually better off than China. Look where they are today.
I actually think India needs a revolution to get rid of its still feudal society.
If I am thinking the same with some mainlanders, so be it. Like they said, great minds think the same.
Not that I don't want to reply your long post, but it is the weekend and I am watching my favor shows and posting at the same time.
so I make it simple. I never lump China and Singapore together, but more or less Taiwan. Authoritarianism is good when the population is ignorant and poor.
I support good representive government and rule of law, but not the Liberal Democracy that ends up partisan politics and hugh debts.
I disagree with your analysis. I don't think China will transition successfully to democracy unless they start liberalizing first. And frankly I am a bit tired of you beating the silly old Taiwan drum all the time. Don't you have any thing different to say? Its not dependent just on income or "development", let me explain.
China has none of non-economic prerequisites for a successful democratic transition. Lousy civil society, no independent judiciary, no multiparty democracy, no independent unions. You are making the big mistake of comparing Taiwan / South Korea vs China. Right wing authoritarian systems are very different. A better comparison would be Eastern Europe. China has basically the same setup as Eastern Europe in 1990. Look at Hungary, they elected a bunch of fascist recently. Its per capita GDP was higher than the ROK in 1987 by 20-30% (in PPP terms). Russia's also was richer. You are surprised, I am too, but that is what the data says.
Money or culture is not everything. Its civil society and the political environment that are equally important. Look at Ukraine vs Indonesia. Both have more or less the same per capita income now. Which country handled its democratic transition better? Indonesia or the Ukraine? Most people would say Indonesia.
During the dictatorship of Suharto they had
1) Rigged multiparty elections. They had Suharto's party, an islamic party and a secular nationalist party.
2) Independent press (censored), but privately run and owned
3) Religious Freedom, Religious Schools, Social Organization
4) Corrupt, but Independent Judiciary
The Ukrainians had none of that.
When Indonesia overthrew Suharto in 1998, they just used the original 1945 Constitution as the basis for political reform, and started to modify it heavily. Indonesians don't call the revolution, a revolution, but "Reformasi" or "Reformation". When Taiwan transitioned to democracy they just used the suspended Constitution of 1946 as the basis. Ukraine had to conjure up something from nothing. China would most likely have to do something similar.
The closer you are to having the institutions of a liberal Western democracy, the easier it is to transition. Its commonsense. China is very far off. As I explained, its not merely economic. In fact, if it was economic, China is ready NOW.
Here are the key differences between India vs China in 197/1949
1) British India was not just one country in 1947. India was a hodge podge of princely states / British ruled India.
2) Despite what many Mainlanders think, the KMT actually did something during the 30 year rule. Do you think Mao would have overthrew the KMT, if it was not for the Japanese?
3) The KMT had already took control of all the foreign concessions and colonies (outside of HK and Macau) by 1945
4) Foot binding was more or less eliminated by 1949, only in some remotes area was it still practiced. They instituted many other reforms.
5) GDP/Capita in 1937 (before the Japanese invasion) was actually double that of India according to some economic studies. Rates of industrialization were higher than in India. Only because of the wars had it dropped below India in 1949. But is it correct to use post-war data as a indicator of economic strength? Germany was as poor as Russia in 1948, but in 1937 was much wealthier. From 1911-1937, Republican China was consistently wealthier on a per capita basis than India. On a PPP terms double.
Could the CPC emerge straight from 1911, without the reforms implemented during the Republican period.
Just compare how large Taiwan is in geography and how large in population and then arrive at your own conclusion.
There is no ready-made answer for a country like China for a better tomorrow though people on both sdies of the Taiwan Strait are Chinese.
In 1970, the GDP/cap of China was about $110, India was $114. So they were about the same in 1970. The difference is almost five times by the end of 2012.
So what happened?
China started its reforms in 1980, India in 1990. Secondly, what about social indicators, by all measures, China was far ahead of India in 1970 in terms of social indicators.
Conversely I could bring Vietnam as a comparison. In 1975, Vietnam was richer than China per capita wise. PLA soldiers who invade Vietnam in 1979 were surprised at how prosperous the Vietnamese villagers. They had about the same level of literacy. They are much more endowed with natural resources than China or India. It is an energy and food exporter. They started reform just 4-5 years after the China. Vietnam should not be poorer than Guizhou / Yunnan, but it is. What happened?
Maybe India should abandon democracy. But there is no guarantee that it will end up like China, it could easily up like Vietnam or worse.
Alot of people here like to think the "democracy" / "authoritarian" system plays a big role. Economist have done comprehensive studies on this, and the conclusion is inconclusive. If you are a gambler, please go ahead, pick a dictatorship. Be my guest.
So given another 10 years, India will be what is China today?
What was holding back the Indian social indicators from 49' to 70'? while they were better off in 1949?
I am not sure India will end up like China neither if they abandon democracy. That is why one political system is not fit for all.
But a revolution will get rid of a lot of social ills from their still feudal society.
I thought the US was a republic?
"Stability is the prerequisite for reform"
Indeed, stability is not only the prerequisite but also the enabling environment for reform and government.
From the view of system theory, system stability is the most important criterion for for any functioning system--- be it a machine, a government or anything that ticks.
The only risk there is to do underhanded things in the name of "stability" or else a misinterpretation of the criteria of "stability" of the subject system (be it a cot or the country)---All are possible human errors or abuses, and that's what Mr. Xi has repeatedly cautioned against in his many recent policy statements, not in rigorous engineering terms perhaps but to that effect.
Needless to say, political reform is a process rather than the goal. It cannot and must not be hurried from nation's within (such as party's academics and lawyers elites) or the outside ("Arab spring well-wishers"?) without due consideration of "stability".
But Orson Welles probably said it best in a commercial: "We will sell no wine before its time."
BTW, it's true that "On December 28th a new law was passed requiring real-name registration of internet subscribers", but its main purpose was to respond public outcries and feedback of internet abuses of selling out private personal information for illegal profits or gains, rather than to "deter criticism of the government" as the Economist article has related.
As of November, 2012, China is home for 1,100 million mobile subscribers with 750 million of them being mobile internet users (220 million of them on 3G). Legislation regulating internet so direly needed just has not kept up with the pace of adding internet users and technical sophistication advances of interneting in China.
China needs Western defined democracy like India needs a Bikram Singh Brahma, Congress Parliament member of Assam who stalked a mother of two to her village home and raped her a couple of days ago.
Not in my house you don't.
"Stability" is indeed a good excuse to put off the reform. Does it mean reform is the opposition of stability? What stability? Government? Society? Economy? or just the power?
Do I misunderstand it? The power of government comes from the people. We don't even have the right to choose the leader, or, no party else could be choosed. What can we do?
Governance of a nation is kind of some nonlinear, time varying, and continuous stochastic process, nothing can go exactly according the plan in 100% certainty. Reform is kind of like some servo feedback mechanism (of automation theory) based on some selected criteria applied to that process of goverance.
Stability is some criteria to ensure that reform works and works as planned within some tolerance of allowed disturbances.
Stability is not obstacle nor catalyzer to reform. it is a criterion for stabe reform.
That said, unlike his predecessors, Mr. Xi is not trained in science or engineering in college but in liberal arts (similarly for Mr. Li). Yet from his recent public talks, Mr. has shown a surprising flair of command of management thinking explainable from the theory of science and engineering such as highlighted above.
IMO that's very good news to know for those who wish China well.
For those who take schadenfreude and do not wish China well, well, to them he may be nightmaqre news then.
Are you saying China is a country full of heart-less ant-like automata (or automatons!) following a mindless non-linear continuous stochastic process with a servo feedback control mechanism powered by the Communist Party of China?
Doesn't that contradict what Jinping said recently about rejuvenating China's dreams or do Androids and Replicants dream of electric sheep as Blade Runner tried to find out using a Voigt-Kampff test?
"Stability is not obstacle nor catalyzer to reform. it is a criterion for stabe reform."
Reform = change, stability = no change. If China experienced no change, the Qing would still be in charge.
@ tocharian in reply to nkab Jan 5th, 21:15
"Are you saying....."?
You need to understand your "heart-ness" is one of many criteria that should and are being considered. The equivalene of that in the West is some Gallup like poll on how people feel about a certain subjec matter, or opinions, petitions and what nots from the public, or from a single citizen sometimes.
Like many other theories of governanve, one thing socialism teaches is to have a warm heart.
But such net can never be perfect even for smaller populations, so it should be continuously improved upon, IMO.
@ Fun with Fruit in reply to nkab3 hours 14 mins ago
"stability = no change"
That's a terribly wrong way to depict "stability".
Stability is maintained with many changes that change all the time.
You need to read something like "Control Theory for Idiots", or "Management Theory for Idiots".
(I don't mean you are idiots. There are such books and I read "XXXX for Idiots" at airports between flights all the time.)
[Fun with reply to 5th, 23:40
"Stability is not obstacle nor catalyzer to reform. it is a criterion for stabe reform."
Reform = change, stability = no change. If China experienced no change, the Qing would still be in charge.]
Who says "stability = no chang"? Clearly, reforms can be undertaken while maintaining stability. How else did China end up with double-digit growth for more 3 decades without BOTH?
If there is one thing that we should have learned about Chinese politics from 2012, it should be that the Party is as divided as the people. As Bo Xilai's case shows.
Is everybody in China supporting democracy? No. I thought so, but then I talked to many people, in fact, many of them don't. The people is so divided, the Party is too, that's why after the Bo's case, Wen Jiabao once said that reform needed support from the people (he felt that there weren't enough support for more reform, because many want "good old days" of Mao). And Xi Jinping may face much resistance inside the power.
I maybe fool,but I choose to think that Xi and Li are reasonable men and more reform will be carried out. The liberals in China have been taking a path as soft as possible, and hope that wisdom won't be triumphed by violence, again.
A few years of breathing space to sort the house out before demographics kick in.
the politics in China are not the same as optimistics and pessimistics. We should realize that there are many unqualities. However, revolt may destoy the country.
When you compared China with USA, it is very backward in democracy. (not that USA is perfect.)Or maybe even many of the rest of China's neighbours (South Korea, Japan, Malaysia,...)But when compared with countries like North Korea or Syria,...at least the leaders can be changed..even not by its own people. The Chinese has evolved, but is it in a healthy pace for its own good?
you really think so? Does it make any sense to comparewith North Korea? all I know is income distribution remains extremly unequal and reform must be done more quickly.
I have just read on www.publiclaw.cn the proposal for a consensus on reform endorsed by scholars of influencial names. Never does their proposal deviate from the constitution law. The same is true with YANHUANG CHUNQIU's new year editorial on constitution. I am sorry to say that the access to YANHUANG CHUNQIU's website is forbidden due to the magazine's failure to file its website information with the authorities. All this makes me feel a little gagged now. I can just say that next time when a wish list is to be sent to the party, please pay special attention to what is really needed by the common people and what the party has to offer to them.
Remember + there would have been no Cold War if not for the architect of the Versailles Treaty and his group of men who had created subsequently the great hunger in Germany and the degradation of its desperate women _ the USA politician Bernard Baruch who first used the term in 1947.
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