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01:00 <@jhuebel> Let's make this a short meeting, so we don't keep our overseas friends awake any longer than we have to. :-) 01:00 <@plasmaroo> Right. 01:00 <@plasmaroo> Ok, let's get started. 01:00 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +m by plasmaroo 01:00 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +m by plasmaroo 01:00 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +m by plasmaroo 01:00 <@fmccor> agreed 01:00 <@plasmaroo> Hm, nice lag. 01:00 **** jhuebel lurches.. 01:01 <@plasmaroo> Ok, I believe we're here to discuss as to how we're going to handle Ciaran's return and to also discuss how to avoid what's happened. 01:01 <@plasmaroo> ... from happening again. 01:01 <@plasmaroo> So, does anybody have anything specific they'd like to raise? 01:01 **** `Kumba doesn't 01:02 <@plasmaroo> Ok, maybe not then. 01:02 <@fmccor> I think first line of control really needs to be the (line) manager(s), as in a business. 01:02 <@jhuebel> Well, let's talk about procedure for bringing him back in. 01:02 <@plasmaroo> Right. 01:02 <@plasmaroo> First of all, I believe `Kumba is willing to be responsible as a mentor for his return? 01:03 <+`Kumba> yup, either me or Weeve 01:03 <@plasmaroo> Or both? 01:03 **** jhuebel nods. 01:03 <@fmccor> Both, I think, is better. 01:03 <@plasmaroo> Agreed, you'd both have opinions on the subject. 01:03 <@fmccor> That way he's covered in both architectures in which he works. 01:03 <@kloeri_> nod 01:03 <@plasmaroo> Yep. 01:04 <@plasmaroo> Ok, procedure. 01:04 <@fmccor> Unfortunately, Weeve is on vacation and unrepresented. 01:04 <@plasmaroo> I assume that as of his return his behaviour would have to agree to our etiquette policy. 01:04 <@jhuebel> Well, let's assume that Weeve will be co-mentoring. 01:04 <@plasmaroo> Right. 01:04 <@fmccor> Yes, 01:05 <@plasmaroo> And what should the route be if that is violated? 01:05 <@jhuebel> Yeah, he has to agree to the etiquette policy before full reinstatement. 01:05 <+`Kumba> probablem with making ciaranm adhere to any "etiquette", is the same has to apply to all others. 01:05 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: The idea is it does... 01:05 <@KingTaco> hrm 01:05 <@fmccor> True, 01:05 <+`Kumba> if he sees himself being singled out for special treatment, he'll lapse back into his old self rather quickly 01:06 <@fmccor> But it doesn't, really. (seem to apply) 01:06 <@plasmaroo> Ok, also are we going to place anything to happen if he goes back to his old self? 01:06 <@plasmaroo> Say, abuse at other developers in #gentoo-dev. 01:06 <+`Kumba> etiquette for me is something not defined by strict rules, but more by the attitude of a society and what that society supports and doesn't support 01:06 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Agreed. 01:06 <@ribosome> Yet we must expect him not to have changed his style during the time of his suspension since he believes that suspension was unjustified. 01:06 <@fmccor> Point is the one eredicator raised Sunday, it's a matter of showing some level of respect. 01:07 <@plasmaroo> Right. 01:07 <@plasmaroo> So how he treats other developers should be taken into consideration during his mentoring period. 01:07 <@KingTaco> based on that log from the other night, I don't think he's changed one bit 01:07 <@plasmaroo> And if he hasn't changed and is still abusive we should probably reconsider before cutting his leash. 01:07 <+`Kumba> depends on the abuse as well. We obviously don't want to nail him to the wall for the minorest of infractions as well 01:08 <@plasmaroo> Of course. 01:08 <@plasmaroo> Also, how are we going to handle complaints. 01:08 <@fmccor> ribosome, In #gentoo-sparc the last few days, except for one instance, he's been OK. I think the Sunday incident was based on a misunderstanding; `Kumba was there, too, and might have insight. 01:08 <+`Kumba> as for respect, I can verify he does give your respect, he just has a rather high threshold to meet before he gives it out 01:08 <@plasmaroo> If we get complaints within the thirty days I assume they need to be fully handled before he is fully reinstated as such? 01:08 <+`Kumba> s/your/you/ 01:09 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: depends on the complaints, and from who the complaints are filed 01:09 <@kloeri_> plasmaroo: I'd assume so 01:09 :::: dostrow!~dostrow@... has joined #gentoo-devrel 01:09 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o dostrow by ChanServ 01:09 <@fmccor> That makes some si]ense ... Like `Kumba said. 01:09 <@fmccor> Er, sense 01:09 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Why does the complainant matter? I'd be more interested in maybe the relationship of complainant with Ciaran in the past rather than who it is. 01:10 <@plasmaroo> (Or is that what you have in mind?) 01:10 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: all complaints need to be investigated, but the individual filing the complaint adversely affects the credibility 01:10 <@fmccor> Well, some complaints are just nonsense; e.g., the dig he took at eradicator in the form of complaint. 01:10 <+`Kumba> if a high-level dev like seemant lodges one, that's going to carry far more weight than one from a love-sources user/maintainer 01:10 <@plasmaroo> Agreed... but, that would be for the investigators and judges to decide of course. 01:10 <@fmccor> And that can go the other way. 01:11 <@KingTaco> `Kumba, thats the problem 01:11 <@plasmaroo> In a way it is. 01:11 :::: jhuebel_!~jhuebel@... has joined #gentoo-devrel 01:11 <@fmccor> So long as we don't get mired down in procedure; 01:11 <+`Kumba> I can imagine there are some users who will not be thrilled to see his return, and will make it their duty to report every minor infraction he says or does 01:11 <@KingTaco> you shouldn't have to be seemant to be able to convers with him 01:11 <@plasmaroo> Since he could start alienating a specific user group rather than say, devs. 01:11 <@ribosome> Speaking of which, we must take into consideration the fact that some devs are likely not to show him the respect he deserves. 01:11 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: That also. 01:12 <+`Kumba> I think one thing tricky about ciaranm, is he plays with words 01:12 <@plasmaroo> Yeah. 01:12 <+`Kumba> he says one thing, but means something else sometimes 01:12 <@KingTaco> Is it any more acceptable to call someone in #gentoo a "complete bitch" than it is to call deedra it? 01:12 <@plasmaroo> The problem we've always had is drawing the line. 01:12 <+`Kumba> and that's not an easy thing to discern over a text medium 01:12 <@fmccor> No, it's worse. 01:12 <@dmwaters> sorry for being late, but i'm here 01:12 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Agreed. 01:12 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Right now we're talking over at how complaints need to be handled. 01:13 <@SeJo> hang on all 01:13 <@fmccor> I am much more likely to get upset over alienating users no matter how silly they are being than by seeing devs fight. 01:13 <@SeJo> I don't agree a "lower" dev, how in earth are we going to mesure that? 01:13 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: So would I... it means more damage to our community since it's a direct hit rather than users seeing devs do their things. 01:13 <@KingTaco> so, the person complaining about his shit doesn't matter 01:13 <@KingTaco> if he's a love user or not 01:13 <@SeJo> indeed 01:14 <@plasmaroo> Well, one thing we need to keep in mind. 01:14 <@plasmaroo> We fired brad_mssw for direct abuse through a private forums post. 01:14 <@KingTaco> if you can't be decent to people, then keep your damn mouth shut 01:14 <@fmccor> KingTaco, You can ignore a user without insulting him. 01:14 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: I heard about that, but not the details 01:14 <@SeJo> a complaint is a complaint, nomatter who filed it, it's the complaint itself that should matter 01:14 <@KingTaco> fmccor, I do it all the time 01:14 <@dmwaters> we fired brad_mssw for several things but that was the last straw 01:14 <@plasmaroo> Right. 01:14 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Hence why I said it would be up to the judges to decide. 01:14 <+`Kumba> KingTaco: it depends on how you define decency 01:15 <@dmwaters> brad_mssw was fired for behavior that was in a sense less worse then ciaranm's. 01:15 <@plasmaroo> What we need to make clear is that every complaint will get handled. 01:15 <@KingTaco> `Kumba, thats what we should be talking about 01:15 <@SeJo> that is true 01:15 <@KingTaco> I don'tsee why ciaranm should get an special treatment(better or worse) than anyone else 01:15 <@avenj> brad was definitely less damaging overall than ciaran as far as alienating devs goes, but ciaran made a lot more friends also 01:15 <@plasmaroo> Agreed. 01:15 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: i think it might be handy to set up a list off possible wrongdoings and link a sanction ot it 01:15 <@avenj> i'd prefer he was on a short leash. 01:15 <@KingTaco> he gets a second chance, and blows it, then he's the one who fucked up 01:16 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: There'd be a problem. He'd pick the one not on the list. 01:16 <@fmccor> Many can get resolved without invoking all the procedure --- see the recent go-around between anarchy and someone. 01:16 <@SeJo> that way it's clear to all what happens when x does y 01:16 <@avenj> fmccor: only if the dev is interested in resolving it 01:16 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: What avenj said. 01:16 <@avenj> fmccor: ciaran has specfically stated repeatedly that he's not interested in resolving things peaceably because he thinks it's ineffective. 01:16 <@dmwaters> anarchy was willing to fix his problem. 01:16 <@fmccor> avenj, That's part of being a dev, I think, 01:16 <@ribosome> All complaints, I think, should be treated the same, and the same goes for all devs. 01:16 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: that's why we need to make a complete list 01:16 <@kloeri_> SeJo: you can't make a list of all wrong doings.. 01:17 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Wouldn't sanctions be for judges to decide, anyway? 01:17 <@SeJo> no we can't but we can make a overall list 01:17 <@dmwaters> ribosome: however, if the dev is willing to correct the problem re: anarchy, then it should not go through investigation etc 01:17 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: not if they are written down 01:17 <+`Kumba> one idea to consider is asking him to limit where he goes. If we can keep him from venturing into #gentoo or onto specific forums, we might isolate a number of possible conflicts before they ever happen 01:17 <@ribosome> dmwaters: Sure 01:17 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Agreed. Maybe we should not list him as a dev on the forums until he's proved his maturity? 01:17 <+`Kumba> like I said in my email, ciaranm's like anti-matter at times. Extremely volatile in the wrong environment 01:18 <@fmccor> Yes. 01:18 <@plasmaroo> So if he rants, it's as himself, not as a dev. 01:18 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: but are you and weeve willing to enforce it. 01:18 <@fmccor> He should not seek out people he believes to be idiots. 01:18 <@plasmaroo> Sorry, my connection just dropped out for a moment. 01:18 **** dmwaters nods at fmccor 01:18 <@plasmaroo> Miss anything but dmwaters and fmccor? 01:19 <+`Kumba> dmwaters: we can't enforce restrictions on where he can and cannot go. The best we can do is respectfully request he steer clear of those channels 01:19 <@fmccor> No 01:19 <@SeJo> that won't help, he'll only complain about censor 01:19 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: ok, let me word it like this if he blatently disrespects the guidelines we put in place, will the 2 of you deal with it 01:19 <@ribosome> plasmaroo: If we don't reinstate him fully, we're asking for additional problems by frustrating him. 01:19 <@plasmaroo> How about we warn him that if we get complaints from forums or say #gentoo they will be dealt with more harshly since he's been warned of the consequences? 01:19 <+`Kumba> I stay out of #gentoo precisely for reasons of avoiding people who ask dumb questions, because I'm likely, depending on mood, to retort a sarcastic comment that could be taken the wrong way 01:19 <@kloeri_> agreed - he's been ranting for a long time about not being allowed to talk about love-sources etc. 01:20 <+`Kumba> well, love-sources is its own topic 01:20 <@SeJo> it's not to the point i think, we have a dev no matter what dev that needs to stick to the guidelines 01:20 <+`Kumba> I don't think you'll find a single dev who will openly support that project. It's one of those "privately, we'll joke about it, but publicly try to be tactful" 01:21 <@dostrow> sorry I'm late I'm here now......family issues 01:21 <@SeJo> we never listed any sanction to those guidelines or only very generally 01:21 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Which is what Ciaran fails (IMO) to do. 01:21 <@SeJo> re dostrow 01:21 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: No, we never list sanctions, merely that they exist. If we start listing sanctions people will bend them. 01:22 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: agreed 01:22 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: he's not the only one. We joke about it frequently in the mips channel, but we do so knowing most people there dislike it, so the atmosphere is more...accepting to what we say 01:22 <@kloeri_> `Kumba: agreed - I was just pointing out that he turned seemants request to be a bit more tactful into censorship 01:22 <+`Kumba> -dev is different, however 01:22 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: well now we aren't even setting guidelines, we are just focussing on one dev, like we did the last 6 months 01:22 <@ribosome> And'll they compare it endlessly to find a loophole to their advantage. 01:22 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Yes, but you joke and are more tactful... not rant in public places. 01:22 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: we're just drifting 01:22 :::: jhuebel!~jhuebel@... has quit: Nick collision from services. 01:22 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: Agreed. 01:23 <@SeJo> ribosome: they always will, look at all justices over the world 01:23 <@fmccor> That's the thing --- exercise some common sense. 01:23 <@SeJo> even when we don't set guidelines 01:23 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: That's the problem. 01:23 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: He'll say it's too harsh. 01:23 <@SeJo> fmccor: problem there for some 01:23 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Or based on 'bad claims' 01:23 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: the question though, is does ciaranm rant because he has a valid complaint against love- that he can back up with facts, or does he do it to lay a trap for the maintainers and users to walk into? 01:23 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Or that he /meant/ it to be a joke 01:23 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I think it's tainted to the latter. 01:23 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: He has the former but isn't expressing it as such, he expresses it as the latter. 01:24 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: agreed, and the problem is, the maintainers and users walk right into it 01:24 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, Sometimes he does --- his humor can be a little rough. 01:24 <@ribosome> In any case, these problems are not common, so we'll have a hard time building a list based on solid experience. Given the number of cases we get, they all differ. 01:24 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Yup. 01:24 <@avenj> love-sources is irrelevant anyway, it's not his opinions that're the problem per se, it's his presentation method 01:24 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Sometimes, yes, at other times it's abusive sarcasm. 01:24 <@plasmaroo> avenj: Exactly. 01:24 <@avenj> he wants to make it out to be devrel suppressing his opinions 01:24 <@fmccor> Well, yes. 01:24 :::: jhuebel_!~jhuebel@... has quit: Client Quit 01:24 <@plasmaroo> Same thing applies to OpenSolaris and whatever 01:24 <@kloeri_> avenj: right 01:25 <@SeJo> not true the people in devrel 01:25 <+`Kumba> the source of OS I think is fear of another macos fiasco 01:25 <@dostrow> `Kumba: love- as an aside...cuz what he says is valid it's just tactless cuz he knows the maintainer and it's followers can be baited...in reality alot of his complaints are valid...it's just his delivery that sucks 01:25 <@SeJo> he takes everything very personal 01:25 <+`Kumba> i.e., sudden import of massive tree changes w/o proper error checking 01:25 :::: jhuebel!~jhuebel@... has joined #gentoo-devrel 01:25 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o jhuebel by ChanServ 01:25 <+`Kumba> dostrow: I think it's not that his delivery "sucks", it's just "raw" 01:25 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: That's the thing - he expresses himself right on the big things, which people agree on. 01:26 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: On the smaller things where he has more personal opinions he's just too inflammatory. 01:26 <@plasmaroo> For about 97.5% of people's tastes. 01:26 <+`Kumba> he doesn't attempt to layer it in a candy coating palpable to people who are more resistant 01:26 <@dostrow> what I would honestly like to see is us trying to deal with some of his previous complaints (the valid ones) to make it clear that he still has a voice so long as he abides by the rules 01:27 <@ribosome> SeJo: Indeed. And that would be a good practical reason to treat him like any other developer upon his return. (In addition to fairness considerations.) 01:27 <@fmccor> dostrow, good idea. 01:27 <@avenj> `Kumba: i state my opinions straightforwardly without being abrasive 01:27 <@SeJo> ribosome: i've always treated him the same, honest but correct 01:27 <+`Kumba> avenj: as I can as well 01:27 <@ribosome> SeJo: Sorry, wasn't refering to you. 01:27 <@SeJo> ribosome: i don't have anything against him personally only the fact that he keeps on pushing the limit 01:28 <@ribosome> SeJo: It was just a general remark. 01:28 <@avenj> `Kumba: in fact, ciaran jumps all over me precisely because of that; my comments in agreement with him on pvdabeel's little side projects turned into me making serious allegations of drug use 01:28 <@SeJo> ribosome: och sorry 01:28 <@SeJo> avenj: which perhaps wasn't the right person to say to afterwards :-) 01:28 <@avenj> he's quite intent on making life difficult for anyone he sees as being opposed to him in any way 01:28 <+`Kumba> avenj: I must've missed that, so I likely can't comment on how that derailed 01:29 <@avenj> SeJo: i don't have a problem stating my opinions publicly 01:29 <@SeJo> avenj: i know, but he took advantage off it, at least tried 01:29 <@dmwaters> ok guys 01:29 <@dmwaters> let's back up a minute 01:29 <@dmwaters> i can't follow 5 conversations at once, so let's try and put some order to this 01:29 <@SeJo> problem is simple are we going to keep on walking on our toes and making special rules and facts just for one person? 01:29 <@SeJo> ok sorry 01:30 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: We can't... 01:30 <+`Kumba> SeJo: we can't, or we wind up in an infinite loop 01:30 <@plasmaroo> That's why investigating each thing by itself is the *only* way. 01:30 <@avenj> i don't care about the procedural point of view, that's for the devrel conflict resolution/disciplinary types to deal with. all i know is as a dev he makes me not want to be here :) 01:30 <@dmwaters> the purpose of this meeting is to deal with ciaranm specificly, because when he returns, there's the potential for a lot of problems 01:30 <@avenj> bbl 01:31 <+`Kumba> especially once he reveals p3's existence 01:31 <@SeJo> dmwaters: there lies a problem in my eyes 01:31 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: How? Write procedure and it'll be bent... you've already seen that happen. 01:31 <+`Kumba> or 'palus' as he now calls it 01:31 <@SeJo> palus? 01:31 <@dmwaters> SeJo: wait a minute. 01:31 <+`Kumba> C++ rewrite of portage 01:31 <+`Kumba> complete rewrite 01:31 <@dmwaters> we're not here to deal with how complaints are handled right now 01:31 <@dmwaters> that was put in the policy that's now on the website. 01:31 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: We're here to ensure the manner in which they will be handled. 01:32 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Not how. But that they will be handled sorta thing. 01:32 <@dostrow> I'm going to be dropping in and out...stuff to deal with...bbiaf 01:32 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: if we want a 24 hour debate on complaints then we can have that for another meeting. 01:32 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yes, but we have to agree that they'll get handled. 01:33 <@plasmaroo> Not how, but that they actually will. 01:33 <@SeJo> dmwaters: the way i see it, is that we are here to try to come up with a today's special for handling ciaranm right? 01:33 <@plasmaroo> Otherwise, he's more or less on a cut leash. 01:33 <@dmwaters> the simple fact about complaints and how they're handled or what ever you want to call it is that knowone is going to completely agree on 1 right way. 01:33 <@ribosome> The thing is, I don't see why his writting p3 (or palus) should matter at all. If it upsets a dev, that's his problem. 01:33 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: Agreed on that. 01:34 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, dmwaters: Didn't we start out by agreeing that 01:34 <+`Kumba> ribosome: as much as pile of inert barrels of gas shouldn't invariably and spontaneously explode, there is always some yahoo smoking near them 01:34 <@fmccor> Kumba and weeve were first line 01:34 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: I think I asked whether we would and then our discussion expanded, heh. 01:34 **** fmccor can't type 01:35 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Unfortunate. 01:35 <@fmccor> I thought `Kumba agreed? 01:35 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: That was regarding him being the contact. 01:35 <@dmwaters> fmccor: i'm not sure what you're asking. all i know is that were here to deal with ciaranm specificly. 01:35 <@fmccor> dmwaters, Yes, that's what I was addressing, as for handling complaints. 01:35 <@SeJo> deal with him like any returning dev 01:35 <+`Kumba> ribosome: there's always the possibility, ciaranm posts on the forums about palus, some user retorts "C++ Sucks!", and ciaranm goes about "correcting" the user with a lecture that not only explains every possible fallacy of python versus C++, but also insults the user in colourful ways 01:36 :::: urilith!~urilith@... has joined #gentoo-devrel 01:36 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o urilith by ChanServ 01:36 <@SeJo> follow up and check every complaint, and keep it public 01:36 <+`Kumba> 10 goto 20; 20 goto 10 01:36 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: ribosome can we stick to 1 conversation at a time please. 01:36 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Yup. 01:36 <@dmwaters> SeJo: 01:36 <@plasmaroo> Ok, we also need to agree on a cut-off point of some sort, or who that'll be decided by. 01:36 <@plasmaroo> If he totally flips his lid, what would the process there be? 01:37 <@plasmaroo> Since as Jason put it, he's effectively one step from being fired. 01:37 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: totally flips his lid being an event similar to the -core posting that snowballed all of this? 01:37 <@fmccor> As published, like for anyone else. 01:37 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Sure. 01:37 <@urilith> whatd i miss? sorry im late 01:37 <@urilith> i was fighting with an install 01:37 <@plasmaroo> urilith: Thirty minutes of rambling. 01:37 <@plasmaroo> urilith: :P 01:37 <@urilith> okay, then doesnt sound like i missed much :) 01:37 <@SeJo> fmccor: in fact if we did that he would be fired now, you don't insult fellow devs not the way he did on -core 01:37 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: No, the problem is there is nothing published. 01:38 <@dmwaters> i think it's more of if we keep getting constant complaints about him, they get dumped on kumba and weeve, and the complaints don't stop, what do we do? 01:38 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: It's totally gray in that respect. And if Ciaran flips it, we'll quite possibly need action /fast/ 01:38 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: That too. 01:38 <@plasmaroo> So if he doesn't change, or flips it. 01:39 <@plasmaroo> Worst case scenario hold a vote on it, heh? 01:39 <@fmccor> kumba or weeve can escallate. 01:39 <@SeJo> we pull the plug 01:39 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: To where? 01:39 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: At what point? 01:39 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: first serious offence 01:39 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: That's what we're trying to loosely define. 01:39 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, to devrel, at their discretion. 01:39 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Would this be the judges or devrel as a whole? 01:39 <@SeJo> serious offence = against the guidelines 01:39 <@plasmaroo> If it's the judges don't we need an investigation? 01:39 <@urilith> devrel as a whole id suspect 01:40 <@plasmaroo> Ok. 01:40 <@urilith> then the investigation happens, then the judges decide whether or not its valid 01:40 <@urilith> which is what the procedure outlined 01:40 <@SeJo> i think devrel as a whole should judge 01:40 <@urilith> well, if we sidestep the procedure 01:40 <@dmwaters> fmccor: yes, but thing is, and no offense `Kumba , but if kumba considders them all stupid complaints and does nothing but they still roll in we need to finally say "ok, they're not doing anything/not effective, we need to do something" 01:40 <@urilith> we just repeat the whole thing over again 01:40 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Agreed. 01:40 <@plasmaroo> urilith: Yeah, 10 goto 20; 20 goto 10 all over again. 01:40 <@fmccor> dmwaters, I am inclined to trust Kumba's and Weeve's judgment on that. 01:41 <@plasmaroo> urilith: See, the thing is, he's going to end up making his attacks so something like this happens. 01:41 <@plasmaroo> Then we spend another two months changing procedure. 01:41 **** SeJo feels like whatever is descided in here it will get bashed on with the first problem that occurs 01:41 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Heh, yeah :/ 01:41 <@dmwaters> fmccor: and we trusted ciaranm, and dealt with 6 months of bullshit 01:41 <@fmccor> And an investigation in this specific scdnario is pretty simple, because everything is happening before us. 01:41 <@urilith> if we stick to the procedure already there 01:41 <@urilith> we have something to defend ourselves with 01:41 <@SeJo> urilith: nope we don't, he'll bend it 01:41 <@urilith> if we sidestep the publised procedure, we go back to square one that started everything to begin with 01:41 <@plasmaroo> urilith: No, there's a problem. Procedure is for one off things. It's doesn't have a cut-off point for repeated events. 01:42 <@plasmaroo> urilith: That's why I'm asking everybody about this. 01:42 <@dmwaters> fmccor: i trust kumba and weeve as well, but we also need a line 01:42 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Exactly. 01:42 <+`Kumba> I'll likely base any complaints against what I saw in the bug opened on ciaranm 01:42 <@ribosome> urilith: Agreed. 01:42 <@SeJo> let's say 3 investigations should be more then sufficient to say he won't change 01:42 <+`Kumba> and compare and contrast there 01:42 <@dmwaters> fmccor: if ciaranm comes back and we get a shitload of complaints over the next 2 months and they're all vallid i think there's something wrong 01:42 <@SeJo> in my eyes third occurance is the last one 01:43 <@plasmaroo> Ok, anybody have any problems accepting that? Three valid complaints and you're out? 01:43 <@fmccor> dmwaters, sure. That's why as someone said a while ago, everything needs to be evaluated. 01:43 <@plasmaroo> And by valid I mean valid. Not one-off remarks. 01:43 <@plasmaroo> But say, a vendetta against somebody. 01:43 <@dmwaters> SeJo: that's just it, there's also the fact that ciaranm's already been suspended the next step in policy is for him to be fired, while i realize people diserve chances, he's already had several. 01:43 <@plasmaroo> Or, continuos antagonism/harassment/abuse. 01:44 <@SeJo> first offence = suspension 1 month, 2nd offence = 2 months, 3d = fired 01:44 <@kloeri_> no problem if they are serious complaints.. 01:44 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, take some care; a vendetta can work the other way --- some one or several out to get ciaranm 01:44 <@SeJo> dmwaters: ddin't we agree that we wouldn't do anything special for ciaran? 01:44 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Suspending him again won't help. 01:44 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: In which case Ciaran files a complaint. 01:44 <@SeJo> well if it's his third , he'll get fired 01:44 <@jhuebel> Technically, suspending him already hasn't helped. 01:44 <@ribosome> plasmaroo: Why isn't that up to the judges? Cases could be very different. I would fire someone immediately in some cases... 01:44 <@jhuebel> But we have to give him another chance anyway. 01:44 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: That's what I asked about a while ago. We got no agreement. 01:44 <@plasmaroo> Ok. 01:44 <@fmccor> ribosome, I agree with that. 01:45 <@SeJo> ribosome: that's why i think there should be at list a list off serious offenses 01:45 <@plasmaroo> Also let's agree that if the judges agree on a firing, that will happen. 01:45 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: no matter what management says? 01:45 <@jhuebel> SeJo: Not practical, really. 01:45 <@plasmaroo> And that in such a scenario, it's goto jail, don't collect $200, don't pass Go. 01:45 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: That comes afterwards. 01:45 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: i gather the sencencing was left to the leads, if i'm not mistaken. the judges just decide guilty or not. 01:45 <@ribosome> Sejo: hum... Sounds reasonable. Some things ought to have you fired at once. 01:45 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, That is a dangerous commitment. 01:46 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: It is, but so is any other commitment we've ever made. 01:46 <@SeJo> jhuebel: nothing is practical in this scenario, but there is no other way IMO 01:46 <@jhuebel> SeJo: Fair enough. 01:46 <@plasmaroo> So, as it stands we're on: 01:46 <@jhuebel> Well, sentencing is already understood to be firing for a third offense. 01:46 <@jhuebel> Correct? 01:46 <@plasmaroo> Three valid or recurring complaints => fire 01:46 <@SeJo> jhuebel: we are again bending ourselves to ciaran, that i think is wrong by itself 01:46 <@jhuebel> plasmaroo: yes 01:46 <@plasmaroo> Very serious offence => fire/suspend 01:47 <@ribosome> plasmaroo: No. He still has the right to appeal like anyone else. 01:47 <@plasmaroo> Or shall we just dump the suspend option? 01:47 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: serious = fire 01:47 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: I didn't ever say he didn't. 01:47 <@jhuebel> plasmaroo: serious == fire 01:47 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: dump the suspend he's already had a 2 monthsuspention. 01:47 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: However, appeals happen afterwards. 01:47 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: if i go deliberatly removing the tree, i should be fired immediately 01:47 <+`Kumba> http://kumba.drachentekh.net/x/tcptraceroute/files/c.txt <-- How is this for a starting list of requests to be made of ciaranm in return for reinstatement? 01:47 <@urilith> ciaran's next logical step would be firing, as it would be with any other random dev B 01:47 <@plasmaroo> Ok, so we have consensus. 01:47 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Having a look. 01:47 :::: KingTaco!~kingtaco@... has quit: Success 01:48 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Looks great. Just throw something in that all complaints will be investigated. 01:48 <@urilith> ribosome: to clarify some more, appeals are outside the scope of devrel, that was a purposeful decision 01:48 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: And that by returning he agrees to be tactful and to not flip his lid as per etiquette otherwise sanctions. 01:49 <@plasmaroo> urilith: Exactly. 01:49 <@plasmaroo> One more thing. 01:49 <+`Kumba> Plasmaroo, that's what point #4 is for 01:49 <@SeJo> an apology 01:49 <@fmccor> `Kumba, I see 4 and 5 as the points which got us here in the first place. 01:49 <@plasmaroo> If infra sees a serious offence, what happens? 01:49 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I'd say it's not clear enough. 01:49 <@SeJo> i think at least he should apologize to the persons he insulted 01:49 :::: KingTaco!~kingtaco@... has joined #gentoo-devrel 01:49 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o KingTaco by ChanServ 01:49 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: He'd say there's no mention of etiquette yada yada 01:50 :::: KingTaco!~kingtaco@... has quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) 01:50 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Maybe something like "The previous two points correspond to etiquette policy which you agree to abide to" or something 01:51 :::: KingTaco!~kingtaco@... has joined #gentoo-devrel 01:51 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: +o KingTaco by ChanServ 01:51 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: I would say the "etiquette" be that of what he would use when conversing with a person in the street. I get the feeling he's one of the types who treats people on IRC way differently than those on the street 01:51 <@fmccor> I wouldn't hold him to a higher standard than what others in fact adhere to. 01:51 <@SeJo> honestly me thinks there should be a vote by all devs to see wether he should or not return, but guess that's not up to me to think right? 01:51 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: No argument there -- IMO that's fully the case for him. 01:52 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Depends, if that's what others here want then I don't see why not. 01:52 <@KingTaco> sorry, network troubles 01:52 <@plasmaroo> Him coming back really does affect Gentoo as a whole, why not let the dev community decide. 01:52 <@SeJo> indeed 01:52 <@dmwaters> we already discussed what would happen. 01:52 <@SeJo> that way he can't blame devrel nor anyone in particular 01:53 <+`Kumba> But can such a vote be done without bias or personal opinion affecting the outcome? 01:53 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, In effect, when he was suspended, tne note implied that to come back, all he needed to do was ask. 01:53 <@ribosome> plasmaroo: Because that's public lyching. 01:53 <@SeJo> dmwaters: yeah but again we are bending ourselves as we also said we wouldn't do that 01:53 <@plasmaroo> ribosome: True. 01:53 <@dmwaters> SeJo: and we also told him he could come back if we back out on that none of the devs will trust us. 01:53 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Policy says returns are at our discretion. 01:54 <@fmccor> He's not a return; he's a developer who is suspended for 60 days. 01:54 <@plasmaroo> Same thing applies AFAICR. 01:54 <@fmccor> That's what he was told, and that note went to all of -core. 01:55 <+`Kumba> Another point I'll add as well, maybe one that's gone by unnoticed, but that one reason this entire debate is being held is because I would dare say that "we need him as much as he needs us". we didn't hold such a debate like this (to my knowledge) about brad_mssw, and I imagine if ciaranm didn't feel any kind of care for Gentoo, he wouldn't be investing the time to rewrite portage in C++ 01:55 <@fmccor> I think trying to reinterpret it at this point is asking for a lot of trouble. 01:55 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: We're obviously not going to say 'No' right now since everybody deserves a second chance. 01:55 <@SeJo> dmwaters: honestly i don't trust devrel myself if we let him come back based on 5 points that he will bend anyway 01:55 <@plasmaroo> Then we get complaints that we deal with. 01:56 <@plasmaroo> They're not rules, but suggestions. 01:56 <@fmccor> `Kumba, right. He clearly has a lot invested in Gentoo and cares for it quite a bit --- that's part of the problem, in fact. 01:56 <@plasmaroo> More like 'advice to not get your ass busted' 01:56 <+`Kumba> fmccor: I don't see that as a problem, but as a solution, if utilized in the right way 01:56 <@plasmaroo> If he ends up misbehaving, his fault, we deal with it. 01:56 <+`Kumba> we have to balance his needs and wants with our own 01:57 <@fmccor> `Kumba, I meant that that is why he can be intollerant of mistakes, sometimes. 01:57 <@fmccor> `Kumba, I don't disagree with you at all on this. 01:57 <@dmwaters> actually seemant and avenj and i had quite the debate about brad but anyway 01:57 **** plasmaroo also. 01:57 <+`Kumba> the points of etiquette (I hate spelling that word) we apply to him have to, ultimately, be applied to everyone. 01:57 <@dmwaters> ok 01:57 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: SeJo 01:58 <@plasmaroo> Yes? 01:58 <@fmccor> `Kumba, yes. 01:58 <@dmwaters> he will return, that's all there is to it 01:58 <@dmwaters> if he fucks up, he gets fired. sorry for the bluntness. 01:58 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yeah, the meeting isn't to change that but rather things after the return. 01:58 **** KingTaco high fives dmwaters 01:58 <@plasmaroo> Fine with me, heh. 01:58 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: the meeting is to deal with ciaranm. 01:59 <@dmwaters> ok 01:59 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Right. 01:59 <@dmwaters> now that that's done 01:59 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: fmccor correct me if i'm wrong...... 01:59 <@dmwaters> 1. he returns. 01:59 <@dmwaters> 2. every complaint we get from him is investigated. 01:59 <@dmwaters> 3. if it's a bad he, he will most likely end up fired. 02:00 <@dmwaters> 4. 3 in a row of the repeated garbage we have in his bug, he gets fired if they're solid, correct? 02:00 < jeeves> dmwaters: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4 nor, P2, x86, tneidt@...>micke@..., RESOLVED, FIXED, graphviz-1.7.15.ebuild 02:00 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yep. 02:00 <+`Kumba> sounds good to me 02:00 <@dmwaters> jeeves: wtf? 02:00 <@jhuebel> Sounds fair for everyone. 02:00 <@kloeri_> sounds good 02:01 **** KingTaco sticks his thumb up 02:01 <@plasmaroo> Six so far. 02:01 <@urilith> dmwaters: you had the words "bug" and "four" in your last statement, jeeves is stupid 02:01 <@urilith> and that works for me as well 02:01 <@fmccor> I'm fine with the first three; I'd recommend a little more discretion on the 4th; otherwise, it's good for me. 02:01 <@plasmaroo> Seven. 02:01 <+`Kumba> One thing though, when me or Weeve (likely me) approach him and explain to him what's been adopted, does anyone have a problem if he sees a copy of this log as well, so that he sees we're trying to be open and meet him halfway? 02:01 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: How about we add "and no improvement in behaviour is seen" 02:02 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, That works. 02:02 :::: ferringb!~ferringb@... has joined #gentoo-devrel 02:02 <@KingTaco> `Kumba, I'm suprised he's not in here now 02:02 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Why not, we're open for business now anyway :P 02:02 <@urilith> i see no reason to hide this from him 02:02 <@urilith> it does involve him 02:02 <@kloeri_> nod 02:02 <@fmccor> I think he should see it. After all, he could have been here in person. 02:02 <@ribosome> Same as fmcoor. And we need to put down in writting who decides the sentences. 02:02 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: See above amendment. 02:02 <+`Kumba> indeed, but it's just to head off any possible "tim-foil" hat wearing 02:02 <@plasmaroo> *g* 02:02 <@SeJo> i hope this thing doesn't blow up in our faces 02:03 <@KingTaco> ribosome, see the devrel guide we adopted a bit back 02:03 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: which? 02:03 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: I said: How about we add "and no improvement in behaviour is seen" 02:03 <@dmwaters> SeJo: we're devrel, we're a target:p 02:03 <+`Kumba> SeJo: I doubt it will. The only people we have to worry about blowing this up are the extreme ciaranm-hating-users out there that will not like this 02:03 <@dmwaters> to which? 02:03 <@SeJo> dmwaters: yeah but didn't know we had to be sadomasochistic 02:03 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: #4 02:04 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Heh... 02:04 <@SeJo> `Kumba: wait till the shit hits the fan...i'll be wearing my helmet... 02:04 <@plasmaroo> Ok, eight votes in approval of above + amendment. 02:04 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, My concern is the one `Kumba just raised. 02:04 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: do you have any objection to plasmaroo's adition to 4. 02:04 **** dmwaters does like it. 02:04 <@dmwaters> fmccor: 02:04 <+`Kumba> dmwaters: lemme scroll up real quick and find #4 + amendment 02:04 <@SeJo> fmccor: the ciaran haters? 02:04 <@fmccor> Yes. 02:04 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Complaints get dealt with faily... if it's just one off lines, we stash and ignore 02:05 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: "I hate Ciaran" goes to /dev/null also 02:05 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, Understood. 02:05 <+`Kumba> dmwaters: agreed 02:05 <@dmwaters> ok then 02:05 <@SeJo> fmccor: like all things when people make false claims, ciaran will know and can complain to us about theù 02:05 <@plasmaroo> That too. 02:05 <@SeJo> they will be treated the same 02:05 <@dmwaters> can someone with nice pretty writing skills write it up? 02:05 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Thoughts on this? Agreed? 02:05 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Write what up? 02:06 <@fmccor> I don't doubt it. I just want it to be explicit. 02:06 <+`Kumba> also, we're going to adhere to the storing of "open" complaints to his sort os..."parole bug", and private complaints (to be indicated beforehand by the user) to the old bug? 02:06 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: the terms, guidelines, whateveryou want to call it 02:06 <+`Kumba> s/os/of/ 02:06 <@fmccor> I think the log speaks for itself, pretty much. 02:06 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I'd agree. 02:06 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: I would. 02:06 <@dmwaters> fmccor: it does, but a summary would be nice 02:06 <@KingTaco> `Kumba, the old bug is available to all gentoo devs 02:07 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: I can make a summary but the condition will be that it is in no way authoritative 02:07 <@dmwaters> fmccor: since when i walked in it was highly disorganized/confusing. 02:07 <+`Kumba> KingTaco: which he will be once more, and thus able to read too 02:07 <@plasmaroo> The authorative decision was taken here thus, and we've got eight votes in favour. 02:07 <@KingTaco> `Kumba, (damn that '`') then the new bug is private? 02:07 <@plasmaroo> KingTaco: No, new is public. 02:07 <+`Kumba> KingTaco: no, open to all 02:07 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: yes, agreed, but still not convinced on if it will help/work 02:07 <@KingTaco> ok 02:08 <@dmwaters> SeJo: sometimes you have to go with it and hope that it does work out 02:08 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: We can't be 100%with anything... :P 02:08 <@plasmaroo> Ok, summary: 02:08 <@plasmaroo> Disclaimer; The following is a summary, see log for details. It is not authoritative. 02:08 <@plasmaroo> 1. Ciaran will return. 02:08 <+`Kumba> and perhaps, for future bugs of this nature, it might be an idea to tag them with an expiration date, at which point, those bugs become public (like say a year) 02:08 **** SeJo is looking for a latex leach and his latex pants, time for some sm 02:09 <@plasmaroo> 2. Every complaint will be investigated. Complaints will be made public, as will the results. 02:09 <@KingTaco> hahahahahah, I read that as LaTeX 02:09 <@plasmaroo> 2.1. The only exception to this is private complaints which will only be visible to developers. 02:09 <@plasmaroo> 3. If a serious offence is carried out, which is to be decided on the discretion of the whole DevRel team at a meeting, Ciaran will be fired. 02:10 <@dmwaters> majority 02:10 <+`Kumba> 2.2: such a private complaint needs to be stated beforehand, otherwise it defaults to public 02:10 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Ack. 02:10 <@dmwaters> agreed `Kumba 02:11 <@plasmaroo> 4. If three (3) valid offences with solid evidence (this is defined by the judges explicitly at the hearing if the complaint is worth this) or no change in behaviour is seen from continuous complaints, Ciaran will be fired. 02:11 <@plasmaroo> Er, lemme rephrase. 02:11 <@plasmaroo> 4. If three (3) valid offences with solid evidence (defined such that by the judges explicitly at the hearing of the complaint) or no change in behaviour is seen from continuous complaints, Ciaran will be fired. 02:12 <@plasmaroo> 5. A list of guidelines [link] has been issued. 02:12 <+`Kumba> "evidence" should be defined as unedited logs (unedited meaning everything is intact. No scrubbing to removes sensitive material, including passwords) 02:12 <@plasmaroo> Ok, 4.1 02:13 <@plasmaroo> Last call for additions. 02:13 <@urilith> plasmaroo: um, private complaints should be public, just not the person who made them 02:13 <@SeJo> points ae non negotiable 02:13 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: ^^ 02:13 <@SeJo> s/ae/are/ 02:13 <@SeJo> take it or leave it agreement! 02:13 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, "continuous valid complaints" in 4., the looks fine to me. 02:13 <@plasmaroo> 4.2 Points are non-negotiable unless declared otherwise by the management commitee. 02:14 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Rephrase please. 02:14 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, 4. .... from continuous valid complaints, Ciaran ... 02:15 <@fmccor> Again, just to be explicit. 02:15 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: What about it? Need more detail? 02:15 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: combine all that with the list I posted as well? 02:15 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I will do. 02:15 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, No, I was just suggesting inserting a word. 02:15 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I think we'll be sending this to -core. 02:15 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Sorry, missed it ;) 02:15 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: Agreed. 02:15 <+`Kumba> he'll need in writing a reminder to give others a second chance. 02:16 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Yeah, the list will go to him. 02:16 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: (As well) 02:16 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: state ver very clear that if no complaints about the list, the list is non negotiable by anyone! 02:16 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: Which list. 02:16 <@SeJo> i rather say even not negotiable by management 02:16 <@SeJo> your points you just summed up 02:16 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: I'm afraid we can't do that. 02:16 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: he should ve given a chance to respond to us about points on the list, incase he has any of his own suggestions, before going to -core 02:17 <+`Kumba> that way, we can say with certainty that he had a minor voice 02:17 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: It has to be overruleable by management. 02:17 <@SeJo> plasmaroo: 10 goto 20, 20 goto 10; 02:17 <@plasmaroo> SeJo: else { bitch("Not fair\n"); dump_core(); } 02:17 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: quite honestly, i don't think he should have say in this. he's the one who got himself into it 02:17 <@urilith> SeJo: we don't have the authority to say this can't be overridden by the managers 02:17 <@urilith> if we try to say we do, we get back into the "cabal" argument 02:17 <+`Kumba> dmwaters: I would agree to a point, but it is a sign of our openess towards him 02:17 <@SeJo> urilith: once they agree, they can't back up 02:18 <@SeJo> so send the mail to management let them agree and then send out 02:18 <+`Kumba> if we express such openness but receive none in return, then we can expect an infinite loop scenario 02:18 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: Hrm? 02:18 <@dmwaters> fmccor: does someone on trial/purrol have say in their terms? 02:19 <@plasmaroo> The situation is that his reply will probably be that none of this needs to happen since he never agreed to the suspension, remember. So it would be moot. 02:19 <@fmccor> They can always make a statement. 02:19 <@plasmaroo> They can make a statement. 02:19 <@plasmaroo> But they can only have a say (well, ask) on their terms if they agree to the suspension. He doesn't. 02:19 <@dmwaters> `Kumba: fine let him make a statement, but he can't change them 02:19 <@plasmaroo> So there's no point. 02:19 <@plasmaroo> Ok; so. 02:19 <+`Kumba> dmwaters: I'm not necessarily saying he be allowed to alter what we've agreed to, I'm saying he be allowed to give us (us being defined as me, weeve, and devrel) his thoughts, and we can take those into considerations for any possible amendments before -core posting 02:20 <@plasmaroo> 6. These terms are final and are subject to discretion by the majority of the DevRel team unless overruled by the management team. 02:20 <@fmccor> `Kumba, I agree, I think, if only as a matter of courtesy. 02:20 <+`Kumba> fmccor: and diplomacy 02:20 **** fmccor wonders how that is really spelled. 02:20 <+`Kumba> fmccor: I think you got it right 02:20 <@plasmaroo> There's a bit of a catch-22. 02:21 <@fmccor> `Kumba, Yes. Sort of setting an example. 02:21 <@plasmaroo> He might say we weren't open enough. 02:21 <@plasmaroo> He might rant how we're a cabal since he doesn't get the chance to change. 02:21 <@dmwaters> anyway 02:21 <@plasmaroo> So I seriously see no point. 02:21 <@dmwaters> are we done with this 02:21 <@urilith> imho, i honestly think that anything we do is a catch-22 02:21 <@plasmaroo> He should of course be allowed to make a statement. 02:21 <@plasmaroo> (In reply to this) 02:21 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Not yet. 02:21 <@urilith> we just have to make the best decision we can and go with it 02:21 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: we've already agreed on that 02:21 <@plasmaroo> Ok. 02:21 <+`Kumba> plasmaroo: it's possible. But if he says that, after we show him the log of this meeting, as well as the list, then I don't think such an argument will hold much water 02:22 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: One can try, believe me. 02:22 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, That's one reason to give him a preview. 02:22 <@fmccor> plasmaroo, And he might have something constructive to say. 02:22 <@plasmaroo> fmccor: *shrug* 02:22 <@plasmaroo> Ok. 02:22 <+`Kumba> plus, it might be a good idea to somehow give me an archive of the -core discussions that resulted following his suspension as read-only material. It might alter his perceptions 02:22 <@plasmaroo> Last call for anything to add to this. 02:22 <@urilith> if he makes a statement suggestion change, we should make public any discussion we have to accept/reject said changes 02:22 <@urilith> that will kill his cabal argument 02:22 <+`Kumba> (as well as give him enough reading material for a month or two) 02:22 <@plasmaroo> Once that's done I am a) constructing this list 02:23 <@plasmaroo> That list will be sent to Ciaran 02:23 <@plasmaroo> He has um, let's say, two days to suggest things. 02:23 <+`Kumba> hmm, I like three 02:23 <@plasmaroo> After which we may or may not call another meeting 02:23 <@plasmaroo> Three it is. 02:23 <+`Kumba> it's a nice, proportionate, number 02:23 <@dmwaters> plasmaroo: let jason or i send it please. 02:23 <@plasmaroo> dmwaters: Yes yes, I'm just drafting. 02:23 <+`Kumba> Or I can send it 02:23 <@dmwaters> let kumba send it:p 02:23 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: I'd rather it be you. 02:23 <@fmccor> Send him the log, since he could have been here anyway. 02:23 <+`Kumba> or is Jason refering not to Weeve? 02:24 <@plasmaroo> `Kumba: That's jhuebel 02:24 **** dmwaters gladly dumps it in kumba's lap 02:24 <@plasmaroo> Ok. 02:24 <@plasmaroo> Last call for comments. 02:24 <@KingTaco> I want a beer 02:24 <@plasmaroo> And on that we shall end. 02:24 :::: mode/#gentoo-devrel: -m by plasmaroo
Updated Jun 17, 2009
Summary: Archive of the gentoo-devrel mailing list.
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"I shattered my heel jumping a big, big gap," she says. "I broke it in thirty places, too many places. I couldn't afford the physical therapy, so I sucked it up and limped around and lost almost a year of snowboarding."
Today the foot has 40 percent mobility, and when Dena makes a toe-side turn, she can't come very far onto her right toes. "The first four months back were incredibly painful," she remembers. But now her foot is just one of those tweaked body parts that eventually nail every snowboarder, and Dena's been competing since the dawn of the sport.
"Yeah, yeah, and I have a meniscus tear from wakeboarding," she laughs. "My knees creak. I'm old."
At thirty-two, she could be considered at the tail end of her athletic career, with a house-sitting gig in Dillon for the season that she got at the last second. The carpenter who owns the property spends his summers in the mountains but prefers to skip resort-style winter. His manly little touches -- decorative Jack Daniel's bottles, big-fish photos -- are all over the place. There's a huge TV, and hip-hop rumbles from the speakers. Dena's goal is to get in as many races as possible, make enough money to cover entry fees, and avoid paying rent.
This week, the second to last in January, will be pivotal. In a few hours, Dena will drive to Aspen to begin practices for the eighth annual Winter X Games. Perhaps the most prestigious and certainly the most public competition on the snowboarding circuit, the X Games will run into the weekend as contestants are narrowed down. Last year Dena took sixth in boardercross, an event in which six riders all start at once, taking big jumps and hard turns on their way to the finish. That was enough to earn her a spot in this year's games, which are by invitation only. If she does well at the X Games, and at a few other national races on the schedule -- a couple of World Cup events, perhaps the Jeep Queen of the Mountain in California? -- the faint outline of the 2006 Winter Olympics will appear on the horizon. At the very least, the prize money could save Dena from having to return to her day job as a Safeway cake decorator.
But it could go the other way entirely. Faster, younger riders might beat her into the ground. Or she might lose her luck to someone else, for no apparent reason -- an unavoidable peril of snowboard racing. After she marries her longtime boyfriend in California next September, she might move there year-round, settle down at a new Safeway, start raising children.
Either option could be cool, Dena thinks. In any case, she's had a good run.
"It's a different sport now," she says. "When I started out, people were always stopping me on the slope just to ask what I was doing."
She was sixteen then, riding at Mountain High, a small resort outside her hometown of Wrightwood, California. Her firefighter father commuted to Los Angeles; her mother was in real estate and taught her four kids to ski when they were so young that none of them remember their first run.
"When I saw my first snowboard, I was totally fascinated," Dena remembers. "I asked the guy the typical twenty questions. He was a skate-shop guy, and I bought one of his old boards -- a swallowtail with a fin. It was total trial and error. I went up on the hill and abused myself. I couldn't go to school the next day, my knees were so sore. But our mountain had night skiing, and I never stopped. I had Sorel boots with bindings that I baled on with a wire hanger."
Pictures from those days show Dena in skintight black ski pants, big hair and a "flowered jacket, flowered everything. That's how I looked in the little local competitions." As a snowboarder, she had a choice between Giant Slalom and Slalom -- two events cribbed from alpine -- as well as a race on a half-pipe made from two mounds of snow with a channel plowed between them, and the long-defunct Obstacle Course. She entered them all and won a lot of them, going immediately to the nationals held by the fledgling United States of America Snowboarding Association (USASA). Prizes were medals and plaques. Pretty soon a sponsor offered free boards to Dena and her two brothers.
"Was it exciting? I mean, can you imagine?" she recalls. "This is when Burton and Sims were getting popular, and another company, Barfoot Snowboards out of Santa Barbara, was getting just as popular, and they offered us boards, products, T-shirts, stickers -- no money, of course. I think we had little three-line contracts that said: I will ride Barfoot Snowboards and enjoy it. Barfoot doesn't even exist anymore. "
As soon as she finished high school, Dena moved to Lake Tahoe for a few years, where she was one of a handful of female snowboarders -- competing, looking for sponsors, waitressing. Then she followed a boy to Copper Mountain, where she stayed three years, teaching at the resort.

subset: commoncrawl


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Niagara Foundation Peace and Dialogue Awards
By Adil James, TMO
Jennifer White, MC from the Niagara Peace and Dialogue Awards. |
The Niagara Foundation held an awards ceremony Thursday October 27th, 2011 at the Westin Southfield, which celebrated several prominent people, including Graham W.J. Beal of the Detroit Institute of Arts, Janice M. Brown of the Kalamazoo Promise, Stephen Schram, Director of Broadcasting for Michigan Public Radio, and Victor Ghalib Begg, Community Activist.
About 100 people attended the awards ceremony and dinner.
The Niagara Foundation's mission is to serve "societal peace, love, and friendship wisely and compassionately in support of human dignity and the common good by striving to bring forth the common values of humanity; values such as understanding, tolerance, respect, and compassion."
The organization has branches in eight states. Its founders, honorary president, and advisory board, are from Turkey. The honorary president is Mr. Fethullah Gulen. The Executive Director of the Michigan branch is Mr. Yasir Bilgin.
The Niagara Foundation has maintained a connection with and has celebrated the accomplishments of numerous journalists, educators, and leaders, the prestige of whom was well-reflected by the Michigan award winners in 2011.
The event featured professional videos of all the past and current award recipients, and recipient thank you speeches.
Graham Beal, of the DIA, spoke of his efforts in the direction of diversity, speaking of the African, Native American, and Islamic Art portion of the DIA, which last he had supported "because of the things done in the last ten years," and he spoke of the Christian art in the Islamic section, which proved the coexistence of Muslims with Christians inside their nations.
Janice Brown of the Kalamazoo Promise program, spoke of the cooperative nature of the KPS program and how it was focused only on educating the Kalamazoo children.
Steve Schram of Michigan Public Radio spoke of his program's series on the Muslims of Michigan.
The evening was defined by its class and organization, and by the respect it gave to the prominent award recipients; focusing more on quality than quantity.
25th Unity Dinner Bigger, Better
September 22, 2011 by TMO · Leave a Comment
By Adil James, TMO
Detroit–September 18–The CIOM's annual unity dinner happened again for the 25th time, this time in a new venue, the Detroit Institute of Arts. Hundreds of Muslims attended, representing the majority of the Southeast Michigan mosques.
A full program welcomed the visitors, with a screening of "On a Wing and a Prayer," tours of Detroit's art gallery, a children's program, and speeches by many prominent people including the Muslim filmmaker Alex Kronemer, Archbishop Allen A. Vigneron, Dearborn Mayor Jack O'Reilly, and Craig Fahle of WDET. CIOM speakers included Dr. Muzammil Ahmed, Victor Ghalib Begg, and Dr. Abdalmajid Katranji.
Alex Kronemer spoke on the importance of communicating across boundaries of race and religion, and of the importance of being a positive force in the world while negative forces hold so much sway over the human mind.
Archbishop Vigneron spoke eloquently on the importance of cooperation across religious lines on issues where there is mutual agreement, and he emphasized those areas, namely that God is One, that He created the universe, that He created the human race, giving them reason and freedom, that He spoke to His creatures, teaching them, that all men and women will be held to account. He offered powerful arguments to show that despite popular wisdom to the contrary, faith and religion have always been powerful forces behind scientific inquiry.
CIOM Event September 18th
August 4, 2011 by TMO · Leave a Comment
By TMO Stringer, based on press release by Ghalib Begg
The Council of Islamic Organizations of Michigan (CIOM), is based on a united Muslim community involved in the larger community through service and relationships with our neighbors, interfaith groups, government and media. Civic engagement is a critical component. The CIOM's annual Unity Banquet is being held at the Detroit Institute of Arts on September 18th, as suggested by our young leaders, is much in tune with helping mainstream our community. Institutionalizing the work of CIOM is critical and it needs your help and participation — physical, financial, moral and your prayers.
"Our faith teaches optimism in this life and in the hereafter. We are an ummah content with its surroundings with 'sabr', building a better society wherever we live, in spite of challenges we may face."


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Mar 15, 2010 9:35 PM by Ariel Wesler
More than 120 million U.S. Census forms started hitting mailboxes today.
The constitution requires the government to tally up the population once every ten years. That data is used to divide up resources and funding to communities nationwide.
This year's form is one of the shortest ever.
It's arriving at a mailbox near you. Ten questions government officials say will take you no more than ten minutes to complete.
"We can be counted for grants, which will affect public safety, police and fire, roads," said Spokesman Mark Van De Kamp with the city of Santa Maria.
The questionnaire asks:
1) The number of people living at your residence,
2) Any additional people that might be there as of
April 1.
3) Do you own or rent?
4) Your telphone number
5) Name
6) Sex
7) Age and Birthday.
8) Are you of Hispanic origin?
9) Race
10) If you sometimes live elsewhere.
In 2000, young adults and spanish speakers were among the least likely to turn in their forms. . .many distrusted the government, but officials say there's nothing to fear.
"They're going to count everyone who's here legally or illegally, whether their citizens or non citizens. They want them counted," Van De Kamp said.
For every person that doesn't return their census, the city loses around $2,000 in possible funding.>
The forms come in six different languages and starting Friday, census workers will open questionnaire assistance centers at city hall and various shopping centers.
"We'll have people that are trained to assist individuals who need help with actually filling out their census, said Frank Sparks, Asst. Manager at the Santa Maria Census Bureau.
"We only get one chance to get this right for the next ten years," Van De Kamp said.
And their counting on you.
On May 1, Census workers will take to the streets, going door to door to talk with people who have not returned the census. If you send it back immediately, you can save the government around $1.5 billion dollars in follow up visits.
In 2000, Santa Barbara county had a 74 percent response rate. San Luis Obispo county was at 75 percent. Both were higher than state and national levels.
Offensive or inappropriate comments are subject to removal. To report a comment, please e-mail us at email@example.com, and include the name of the story and information on the comment.
Thank you! KSBY.com
2 hours ago


text:
I've been playing around with several Encore crackle tiles to see what seems to hit home. Unfortunately everyday a new tile seems to "be it". I was originally thinking of combining different tiles for something different. I haven't fully discarded that, but now I'm not so sure. Here are a couple of photos of the blue choices. Am I crazy to even consider Blue - I think bathrooms with blue. The colors are Sky, Bali , Riviera. The green contenders will follow. Thank you! |
This post was edited by laurencp on Wed, May 14, 14 at 10:37
Follow-Up Postings:
Could you take pictures in brighter sunlight? It's a little hard to tell. I don't think you can go wrong with any of their colors, they are all so gorgeous. From these pictures I am leaning towards the celery. |
Yes I will try in brighter light it was too dark this morning and the the brightness has left for the day. Will try tomorrow morning. |
- Posted by lcskaisgir (My Page) on Wed, May 14, 14 at 19:10
I just wanted to comment on how absolutely gorgeous your counters are! :) |
Your counters are killer. I too would like to see the tiles in better light, but so far I like celery. |
me three with the celery. They are all so nice though...I can see why you are having a tough time! |
How are you doing on your tile selection? Edit: duh typo |
This post was edited by romy718 on Fri, May 16, 14 at 22:24
I like Riviera and Celery. Your counters are pretty! |
- Posted by neroselover (My Page) on Fri, May 16, 14 at 22:03
I like celery. And your gorgeous countertop! |
I just ordered today! I have to say it was a really hard decision. I had been unable to decide between the Celery, Riviera and the Sky. I was leaning towards Riviera , but decided it may be just a bit more blue than I wanted. I loved the Celery, but I just had a gut feeling I would tire of the green. My favorite that I always came back to was the Sky. It glimmered, had tints blue, green and when in bright light was pale grey. However, it was so muted and nothing seemed to pop and it just was lost. So, I put another tile up this morning that I had put back in the bag at the start of the week and it was perfect! Bali it is! I also ordered 1/3 Riviera to splash about and I am crossing my fingers it looks ok. I decided to go with the 2x4 tiles. Next to decide on is grout. They quoted 4 weeks production and 1 week shipping. I'm glad it's ordered - I just hope I made the right decision. It felt right at the time - fingers crossed. Will post a photo when it's done and thanks everyone for weighing in. I |
- Posted by rubyclaire (My Page) on Sat, May 17, 14 at 15:35
Can't wait to see the final reveal. Your kitchen is lovely and your counters are just fabulous! |
- Posted by bookworm4321 (My Page) on Sat, May 17, 14 at 17:35
Even my KD couldn't help me decide between Mint and Cameo. The cameo was lighter, and my kitchen has but 1 window, so I went with that. I honestly feel these colors are so lovely, you cannot go wrong. Mine came in early, and not a dud in the lot. I have so much extra! Saving for a future bathroom. Hope to see your reveal. |
Sounds like a perfect choice. I'm excited for you & I can't wait to see pics. |
Thanks again will post when done! I had reluctantly shared my possible color choices of the Encore crackle with a friend. She informed me that the crackle was neither timeless nor classic and she did not care for it! It was why I just needed to bite the bullet and get it done! I told the tile sales girl that picking tile is just like picking a baby name- you're better off telling no one !! She said that is exactly what they tell people! |
I was in the basement getting out some gardening things & came upon two Bali samples. It is a beautiful color. Some people (I was one of them) have misconceptions about crackle tile, especially the hand glazed ones. I didn't even consider crackle until I stumbled across a sample board. This was after my KD suggested crackle & I said "no...I don't like crackle." And the Encore is special...the almost sparkle it has & the color pooling. It's going to be lovely. Now...back outside. DH is probably wondering where I disappeared to. |
This post was edited by romy718 on Sun, May 18, 14 at 16:16
Bali is very pretty. And crackle rocks! Your friend is deluded. :) |
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text:
I have to compliment the staff from Noni B Warriewood Square..I am now converted to shopping at Noni B. Kelly
I am writing to say thank you for your wonderful new line of travel garments....Lynda
Thank-you to Margaret from Westfield Kotara for good service. - Marcia, Cardiff
I would like to mention each Noni B store has given me outstanding advice - Suzanne - Riverland
The Ladies at Capalaba are the very best. So friendly and helpful. - Ann, Brisbane
I love shopping at Noni B at Colonnades, I find the Manager, Anne, cannot do enough to make me feel good. - Vanessa - Adelaide
What a pleasure and a delight it was to shop at your Brimbank Central store..Helen
Congratulations on your new store at Narellan, a quality women's clothing store that we really need, Leonie
Love your beautiful stylish clothes which are affordable and more importantly for me actually fit properly! - Melinda
Great work ladies at the Mittagong shopping centre you do a great job. - Michelle.
Congratulations on your new store at Narellan, a quality women's clothing store that we really need..Leonie
Thank you so much girls, your friendly manner and professional service is greatly appreciated. Jenny
I would like to highly commend your staff at Parkmore store, Lucinda, Mandy and Chatu - Dalryn - Noble Park
The best thing about dealing with your website is that we get our bought items within a few days. - Anne
Was in your St Clair store today...It was so nice to feel welcome and non- pressured. - Kathryn, St Clair
I want to commend Ursula at your Dandenong store for her enthusiasm, honest and very helpful advice..Rhonda
To the wonderful Machi & all the team @ the Maroubra store N.S.W Anna
Love Noni B !!!!!! I am a mature aged lady who always likes to look nice and receive compliments on my clothes. Thanks Noni B. Marina - FACEBOOK
I want to thank Mendia & Chatu at Noni B Keysborough... I really appreciate their time and attention. - Liz
I want to say thank you for great service at Noni B Armidale NSW - LYNNE
I love shopping @ NoniB. Beautiful clothes & friendly helpful staff. - ISOBEL
This store is amazing, I went to Busselton NONI B and I had the best experience... - Cheyenne, Busselton
I had the most wonderful experience at your Bateau Bay Store this morning - Brie - The Entrance
The two ladies at the Gympie store just the best. Nothing is too much trouble for them... Jenny
The ladies at Southport Australia Fair made me feel welcome and showed exceptional customer service - Michelle
I always find the ladies lovely from the moment I step into the Nepean store -Alison
The service I receive at NONI B at The Pines in Doncaster East is always outstanding. - Lina
Just wanted to thank Katie from the Canberra Centre Store for her brilliant customer service - Emma - Canberra
To Nina and her staff at the new Bairnsdale store, thank you all so much for the great service! - Leanne
Nicki and her team at Leichhardt are marvellous! I really enjoy going into the store - Isabel - Sydney
I love the new travel clothing very comfy no ironing perfect - Marrelyn, PERTH


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All Breakfast with the Babies dates are now SOLD OUT!
Feed your little ones then help us feed ours! Enjoy a kid-friendly buffet breakfast then get a hands-on introduction to the newest additions to our farm family, including lambs, kids, chicks and more. Enjoy games, play tug of war and have sack races on the lawn.
Make a weekend out of it! Register for Breakfast with the Babies and receive a 10% discount on overnight rooms at The Inn at Shaker Village. Call 800.734.5611 x 1545 to receive room discount.
Shaker Village of Pleasant Hill 3501 Lexington Road Harrodsburg, KY 40330 . 800.734.5611 . firstname.lastname@example.com


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A colorful collaboration - Kaffe Fassett and Husqvarna Viking
Kaffe Fassett is one of the world's most exciting craft and color artists,who has inspired many to the art of patchwork, quilting, needlepoint, knitting, ceramics and mosaics.
Kaffe is a best selling author, has hosted his own TV series and was the first textile artist ever to have a separate show at the Victoria & Albert Museum in London in 1988. Since then he has toured the world with his inspiring exhibitions and workshops.
Kaffe's unique sense of color and drive to create, combined with his desire to encourage others, has led to his reputation as a master in the world of color and textiles.
Kaffe Fassett and Husqvarna Viking in partnership
Kaffe's unconventional use of color complements our high quality products, our goal to spread the joy of sewing and to inspire sewers all over the world.
Already well known for his hand embroideries, Kaffe was happy to design his first machine embroidery designs ever for Husqvarna Viking. He has, so far, created two amazing embroidery design collections with typical Kaffe Fassett motives.
He has even designed a special kit, a cushion with one of his embroideries, to be sold together with the first design collection. Kaffe has also contributed with a beautiful pinwheel quilt for the Zig Zag magazine.
Furthermore Kaffe kindly invited Husqvarna Viking into his studio in London. This resulted in a beautiful DVD that is now available at your dealer's store.


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Dinner Napkins - North River
North River dinner napkins, made from 100% recycled fiber, of which a minimum of 70% is post-consumer material, are the most environmentally preferable option available on the market. North River's napkin third party certifications include Green Seal, EcoLogo and Processed Chlorine Free. It exceeds EPA comprehensive procurement guidelines. The large folded dimensions allow the napkin to hold cutlery without overhang and the recyclable poly packaging overwrap protects the napkin until needed. 1 Ply, 1/8 Fold, Colour: white, Napkin size: 15.5" x 16" (39.7 x 40.6 cm), Case Quantity: 12 packs x 250 napkins.
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Twin Creeks Park
Primary tabs
Year Established:
(1 vote)
Short, with a few trees coming into play. Well-maintained. Somewhat confusing layout. No smoking.
Course Details
# Holes: 9
Target Type: Mach III
Tee Type: Concrete
Elevation: Flat
Foliage: Sparse
Course Length: 0ft
Alternate Length: 0ft
Hole Length: Under 300ft: 7 | 300 - 400ft: 2 | Over 400ft: 0
From Lake Cook Rd. and Hwy 83 (McHenry Rd.); go north 0.8 mile on 83 to a right on Buffalo Grove Rd., 1.3 miles to a left on Aptakisic Rd. Park is immediately on left.
First Tee:
(-87.966938,42.181423 )
Contact Name: Park District
Contact Phone #1: 847-459-2321
Course Map
Course Photos
This course has no photos.
Course Reviews
by ach105 on Aug 11, 2010 at 1:31pm
Somewhat hidden from view, behind what looks like a kickball field. The first 6 holes are very short, good warm up for beginners. After crossing the creek the holes stretch out and allow some good tosses. The course passes by bocce ball courts which is interesting, but it doesnt make it any better. Overall its ok, personally I would only play there if I was in the area.
Courses Close By
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- Danny Cunniff Park, Highland Park IL US
- Leo Leathers Park, Mundelein IL US
- North Salk Park , Rolling Meadows IL US
- Fink Park, Highland Park IL US
- Adler Park, Libertyville IL US
- Fremont School, Mundelein IL US


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"Overall, the recipe has potential. The biggest downfall was the complete lack of flavor...it would've been greatly improved with some garlic, Italian seasoning, etc, but I was trying to follow the recipe the first time through. I used our favorite sauce and good medium spicy sausage, but there was just not enough flavor coming through. I'..."
"As is, I didn't care much for the flavor of this recipe, but that may be due to some substitutions. I didn't have any celery, so I just used the onion and added some green pepper, and the only vinegar I had handy was red wine vinegar, so maybe that gave it too much of a sweet and sour taste that just didn't go with the BBQ sauce, and I didn't lik..."
"PERFECT! Super simple and tasted crunchy and amazing with my dip of refried beans blended with taco seasoning, salsa, shredded cheese and sour cream. I tossed them with salt before baking and did the cutting with a pizza cutter. Delish!"
"Made this for my daughter one Friday night...I skipped the chicken and had to make a lot of changes. But even doing this slapdash and with lots of substitutions/omissions, it was wonderful! I made her a single serving, and she begged me to make more! It was really delish, and was so glad to find that even though there were lots of steps, it ver..."
"Fabulous! This is totally a keeper for my fam! I made it for an appetizer for my daughter's 13th birthday party per her request, and it turned out great! I used low fat cream cheese, regular pumpkin and added my own spices (1 1/2 t cinnamon, 1 t ginger, 1/4 t cloves) and only used about 1 1/2 cups powdered sugar. It set up beautifully overnigh..."
"I was so excited to see this recipe, as my daughter LOVES Boston Market. She mixed it together and made it herself (She's 9). After reading the other reviews, we decided to reduce the number of eggs to 4, bake them in cupcake pans, and we used a regular yellow cake mix. They were sweet but not too sweet, and the texture was just right...still m..."
"We've made this multiple times in our house, and each time it just keeps getting better and better! I've substituted seasoned breadcrumbs or Ritz cracker crumbs for the cornflakes, and tried it on some boneless porkchops too...yum! Tender, flavorful, and juicy without a ton of fuss! Definitely a keeper in our house."
"This was just what I was looking for! I added a package of thawed, drained, and squeezed spinach for color and flavor, used turkey bacon, sauteed the onion in the bacon drippings, and instead of regular milk, I used a 12 oz can evaporated milk and skim milk for the other 1/2 cup. I also used a variety of cheese because Swiss is not my favorite....."
"This was quite good for being thrown together...I discovered after getting the sauce completed that I didn't have any cheddar cheese, so I substituted about 6 Kraft singles and a handful of Mozzarella for good measure. The sauce was way too thick for my taste, so I added the remainder of the evaporated milk and a shot of skim to thin it out a lit..."


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Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, for me they are a blast from the past but looks like they have come back around! Love this Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Birthday Party for five year old Carter, styled by his Mom Heather over at Life with Lulu and Junebug!
Heather used green hanging decorations to make the Ninja Turtles, how creative! She also made the city science backdrop, love that!
Pizza Cookies….Yum!
Always amazed at these wonderful cakes!
A super cool Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Birthday! Check out Heather over at Life with Lulu and Junebug for more party pictures and ideas for this party and others!


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Indiana's Kevin Wilson wants more Ws to go with effort
By Andy Proffet Post-Tribune correspondent October 15, 2013 11:06PM
The Big Number
Michigan, IU's opponent this week, has 18 consecutive home wins. It's the longest active home win streak among BCS conference schools.
The Extra Point
TE Ted Bolser was named to the Mackey Award midseason watch list on Tuesday, a day after earning offensive and special teams player of the week awards for IU.
"He can make some plays in the pass game, but he's been awesome in kick coverage. He's been awesome in punt coverage," Kevin Wilson said.
"I do think he has a great sense of urgency because he … wants a chance to be an NFL player," Wilson said.
Updated: November 17, 2013 10:01AM
BLOOMINGTON — Midway through his third season as Indiana's football coach, Kevin Wilson sees a team that's fun to be around.
Now it's a matter of making Saturdays more fun, with some wins to back up the effort he sees from his players.
At 3-3 overall and 1-1 in the Big Ten, the Hoosiers have their best record at the season's midpoint since the 2010 team started 4-2 in Bill Lynch's final season as coach.
But that team lost its next five games before eking out an overtime win at Purdue to finish the year 5-7. There are only seven players on IU's current roster who were with the Hoosiers that season, and Wilson hopes for a better sendoff for them.
"The frustrating thing is, I want some seniors to selfishly find a way to get these wins, and these wins aren't easy," he said.
Consider the results of IU's game last Saturday at Michigan State. The Spartans hadn't allowed more than 17 points in a game this season; IU scored 28, the most scored against Michigan State since Nebraska also scored 28 last November.
But Michigan State had over 200 yards both rushing and passing in the 42-28 win. It was the most points scored by the Spartans against an FBS opponent since scoring 55 against Indiana in 2011. Wilson and defensive coordinator Doug Mallory said a big issue with IU's defensive effort was missed tackles.
"A couple of those explosion plays we had guys in position to make a play and just didn't execute the No. 1 fundamental thing on defense and that's tackling," Mallory said. "That's just something that you try to work and you drill throughout the week."
Still, "We don't have time to spend 15, 20 minutes every day on just pass rush moves or proper tackles," Wilson said.
"We just need to be a lot more disciplined in practice."
And while the defense has plenty of room to improve in the second half of the season, the offense needs to continue to work toward more balance.
"We've got to find a way to get some run game," Wilson said, even though Tevin Coleman is on pace for IU's first 1,000-yard rushing season since 2001. He's got 557 yards on the ground at the midway point.
"You just want to keep finding ways to get these Ws so that our fans, our recruits, and for the seniors that bought in, they can taste what they're working for," Wilson said. "But they work like it, and they play like it, and they're fun to coach, and they're fun to be around.
"It's a group that's very enjoyable, and we need to give them some enjoyable Saturdays."


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Steve Taylor High-Fives Way to Vegas in August 20 Arlington Handicapping Contest
Andy Gardner, Mike Rusovick, Ken Maier, Curtis Kimbler Round Out Top Five
It was high fives all around trainer Mike Campbell's box following last Saturday's tenth race when Campbell client Steve Taylor hit the Super High Five. Taylor not only hit the Super High Five, he set a record in doing so.
Those of you who have gone through my handicapping classes, and those who have read my stories here on my blog, know that I preach "Make a little money do a lot of work." Taylor did.
Taylor explains. "When I play in a handicapping contest, my method is to be very aggressive, to go for a big hit that puts me in contention for the top prize. I often zero out, but I know to expect that I will end up with little or nothing on my contest card if I miss the home run.
"I like to play down in races, vertical exotic wagers," Taylor continued. "A favorite is the Super High Five since it goes the deepest, which means it offers the highest probability of a big payoff.
"My usual approach is to handicap the race down to six horses then use them in a Super High Five part wheel. I start with my three top horses in the first and second positions, then I expand to four, then five, then six. The ticket graphic would be 3 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6.
"This time, however, I only used five horses total," Taylor revealed. "The ticket graphic would be 3 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 5. The math would be 3 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 1 = 24 combinations. Since the Super High Five is a 10-cent bet, the ticket cost $2.40."
Let it sink in. Taylor set a record and did it by turning $2.40 into $3,982.58. The final odds of the top five horses in the Super High Five, in order, were 9-5, 42-1, 39-1, 3-1, and 4-1. "How's that for making a little money do a lot of work?" he asked, rhetorically, of course.
Expressed in odds, Taylor hit a 1,658-to-one shot. For his success, he wins an expense-paid trip to Las Vegas to play in next February's Horseplayer World Series (HWS) put on by Coast Casinos at The Orleans. The prize package includes a travel voucher, some cash, hotel accommodations at The Orleans, plus an entry into the HWS where the top prize is estimated to be $300,000. Wouldn't it be something if Taylor continued to parlay that $2.40 into $300,000.00?
Andy Gardner must also have some kind of record. Twice in this summer's contests he has posted a total that would often win, only to settle for runner-up. But that could ultimately work out.
On July 9 Gardner finished third with a final bankroll of $1,029.20. Since half of these contests are won with a total of approximately $800 and up, his total often would have gotten the job done.
Last Saturday Gardner did even better. His total was higher, $1,287.50, and his final placing was higher, second, but still not good enough. However, perhaps it will be. He is now the front-runner for the cumulative standings prize, which is the same Las Vegas prize package as the weekly winners receive.
"And to think I wasn't even going to come to Arlington and play in the contest last Saturday," Gardner admitted. "My records show that I don't do well when we are hit with heavy rain, like we were that morning, and my first inclination was to stay home. But the contest got me out there. I decided I should go, play conservatively, and just try to add to my cumulative total.
"I hit on a couple of small bets early in the card so had built up my balance some," he continued. "Then I looked at the Pick Five and decided I could have a decent chance of hitting it with only an $18 investment" Gardner revealed. "That was conservative in my book, so I made the investment, and I did it with a single, Ville, in the last race. With consolations, my return was $1,087."
Play conservatively and turn $100 into over $1,300, prize money included. Nice day.
Gardner's nice day pads his lead in the cumulative standings. "That's all well and good," Gardner observed, "but I'm taking nothing for granted. Everyone has two more chances to have a big day, or two big days, and pass me up. So I'll be there for the next contest, trying to win it outright and let the others scramble for the cumulative prize."
Mike Rusovick is a familiar name, and face, and voice, on the local contest scene. "Thanks for the call," he began when I contacted him to tell him he finished third.
"My story is nothing compared to the top two guys," he continued. "My hat's off to them for what they scored. Tell them 'good job, guys.' And by the way, tell Andy I'm pulling for him to win the next contest and take himself out of the cumulative chase. That's if I don't win the next one, of course."
Rusovick's $415 final bankroll came as a result of liking one horse. "I liked A Nice Slewish Boy (18-1) in the fifth race, so I wheeled him forward in the Daily Double.
"The winner of the sixth was Priceless Shore, the 5-2 second favorite, the double paid $156.80 for $2, and I had it for $7, and that's it," Rusovick concluded.
To view the final standings from the August 20 contest, click here.
To see the cumulative standings after five contests in the summer, 2011, AHC series, click here.
Your next chance to take a FREE chance to win a Las Vegas trip is Saturday, September 10. For more details go to McMannis Blog by clicking here, scrolling down, and reading Arlington Will Pay You This Summer to Win $300,000.00 Next Winter!
We want to send you to Las Vegas, but you must get in it to win it! See you September 10! Contest signup begins at 11:15 AM, followed by my FREE handicapping seminar at noon. You do not need to be in the contest to attend my seminar.
M. Scott McMannis
- Handicapping Seminar and Contest Host, Arlington Park
- Expert Selections Handicapper, arlingtonpark.com
- Midwest Correspondent, The HorsePlayer Magazine
- Owner and Publisher, The McMannis Speed Figure & Trip Note Service Newsletter,
- And Arlington and Hawthorne Trainer Patterns