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I just don't understand why someone would actively be part of a religion that so stigmatizes their feelings towards men. Why pray to a deity who says that homosexuality is an abomination that has no place in the world to the point of being a death sentence?
The evil of this belief exists for real. I saw a documentary that was very eye-opening and horrific to see for any gay person. A gay UK radio show host went undercover to Africa, Uganda, and pretending to be straight went around interviewing people from all sections of the community whether or not gay people should be punished. EVERYone he asked was behind this evil, even the youth who you would have thought would not be so conforming, and they mostly quoted the Bible in support of their homophobia. One African girl on a radio show about the subject he'd arranged even said that dreaded cliched crap "God didn't make Adam and Steve [pause] He made Adam and Eve". T%he climax was him arranging an interview with one of the country's top politicians who wanted to introduce the death penalty for gays who had been caught having sex. You should have seen the expression on his face when at the end of the interview the interviewer confessed he was gay lol. Soon after we here he had to quickly leave the country for fear for his life!
Gay youths in America etc etc have killed themselves because of bullycide--persecuted because they are gay or suspected of being gay. They are the tip of the iceberg with many kids lives made misery. So what I am saying is this is very serious, and is supported by Bible believers. It is not enough to pretend to be tolerant but then insist gay people cannot have sex with others, or before marriage as it is sinful. It is this belief in a 'pure God' that is the problem, because then others are considered of a sinful nature and hence 'impure'.
Last edited by ludolfo; January 29th, 2013 at 02:54 PM.
Do you think there wouldn't be homophobic people if, say, religion would be eradicated? I think the situation would remain the same, because now people use religion as an excuse, and justification for their hatred towards gays, but if there were no religion, than their hate would remain.
Humans naturally distance themselves from the unknown. I do not know why, but most humans always see difference as an opposition.
Why is that? Why does human nature constantly seek an opposition, a group he can blame everything on? In every group there is someone who becames the omega-male. In every society there is group that is hated. In every country, there a regions that are hated by most others.
I think this is a psychological phenomena. People want an enemy to hate, and blame everything on so they don't have to face their own failings.
Well in your own way you are really translating the Christian assumption of 'human nature' into psychologism. IE., instead of claiming that human nature is by sinful as the Christian myth states, you pretend that it has always been so and this is now a scientific-psychological fact that humans always hate others, 'an unknown'. Believing this myth, instead of really looking at the Christian myth and what belief in it does to the psychology you deny all that--refuse to look-- and claim human nature is like this throughout and has been always, and there's no real solution.
The Christian myth believes in a 'God' who is 'pure', and that nature by itself is 'impure', and thus we need to surrender to this 'God' so as to 'redeem' ourselves.But you seem to want to deny the pernicious assumptions of this myth and now diffuse the looking into it by claiming 'ohhh, its been human nature all along to hate gays, and blacks, and women, and nature, and sex, and 'the unknown''). This is your myth, and it stops you looking and questioning the Christian myth which blames human nature for being sinful and sexual love, especially being between those of the same sex, as being sinful.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Look, it really doesn't matter that there may have been other mythologies which have been violent. One could see the ancient Aztec mythology as being very bloody and cruel. The thing is we have to NOW to look and question. Realy mythology is not then but a living dynamic now. We are living now, and these problems--such as young people being bullied to death for being gay-- are with us now yet you defend an old story set down many centuries ago in a totally different culture and time and imagine it could apply to now when all it does is cause much of the fear and paranoia about sexuality etc.
That reply of mine sounds muddled, and not clear so I am gonna try to be clearer. OK, The Christian belief is that nature is already sinful. You then say that even despite Chrstian belief people will always be afraid of the unknown and attack what it doesn't understand. How do you know this?
native American culture pre-the European conquests accepted gay people, and they were known as 'two spirits' and considered sacred. So aty least there was a respect for males who desired other males. (sorry I do not know about lesbians)
But JUST because you may point out cultures from the past who not being Christian may have feared an unknown does not mean that the Christian belief system doesn't encourage such fear of the unknown.It starts of from its very beginning creating paranoia amongst its believers by claiming they are sinful, and the 'flesh' is to be feared and not trusted, and nature is fallen and ruled over by the devil who desires their souls to go to hell for everlasting pain. I mean sheeeeit you cant get more paranoid than that...can ya? LOL
How does this myth translate into secular culture, for after all most 'educated' people will calim that all of this is superstition, and now we live in an Age of Science. Well, we still have homophobia, so is this as you claim because this fear of the 'unknown' is inherent in human nature or is it that Christian values still permeate the culture albeit mainly unconsciously.
I wonder who are the groups that will not allow teaching children about homosexuality in their enforced schooling system? Would you say they are Conservative Christians or Conservative atheists? I am seriously asking you to tell me what you think?
There is also the question of what does gay even mean? Is it black and white with gays on one side and heteros on the other or is it far more complex than that? What do you think?
Last edited by ludolfo; January 30th, 2013 at 12:04 PM.
Perhaps not referring to it as "the Christian myth" would allow people to take you more seriously. Hard to get into a discussion with someone who is biased to the point of rolling your eyes.
Persecution for any reason has happened throughout history, even where religion was not involved. Why is that in many African countries, there is racism towards those who are darker than others? Hell, slavery was largely institutionalized with nary any mention of it being God's will (except from the fringe which both sides distanced themselves from).
By and large, the theme has always been that someone or some group wants to be the dominant force. Look towards animals who don't have the capacity for ego, exploitation, etc. Religion just adds an easy layer of explanation. You can easily dismiss the conversation so as to respect someone's beliefs or it can be used to incite those who believe it is their duty in life. It's much more socially acceptable to say "It's against my religion" than to say "I simply don't like you because of who you are." It's also much easier to get someone to join you when they think they're working for something bigger than themselves.
The earth's magnetic poles have not shifted for a couple thousand years. Let's see if christianity survives the next polar shift. And that is the depth of your argument.
You get me wrong. I have no illusions about the Catholic Church, and I am quite aware, that they are one of the sources of gay-hate in this world, but it is not so successful because they have created that hatred. It is successful, because that hatred already exists in human hearts. If it weren't true there were no anti-gay atheists (yet there are many of them)
If an individual can symphatize with an organization, he will be likely to support it.
The nature of the threat that the Catholic Church poses against gay people is more subtle. It tries to make everyone believe that gays are sinners, but it is not a completely effective strategy. Of course, I am aware that many fall for this, and become anti-gay because of the religious influence of the church (This has happened to my mom. Now we are making circles around each other, waiting for one of us to turn his/her back so we can perform a backstab)
Yet it is much more easier to strengthen the hatred that is already there. And this is the real danger. The Catholic Church hands justification for their hatred: "they are sinners", "God hates sin".
Saying that the Catholic Church is responsible for the existence of gay-hate is blindness. We don't need the Catholic Church to be self-righteous, selfish, hateful bastards. It is human nature to distance yourself from the unknown. And I think we all know what it is like to fight your own nature. It is something we do everyday. Knowledge is the only thing that can make us more understanding.
And this is where the Catholic Church is extreemely dangerous: They claim to have knowledge about gays and homosexuality. They give you a few fairy tales and scientific-sounding documents, wrapped in fancy words, and a lot of people fall for it. Becuase the "information" they give gives positive feedback about the wrongness of being gay. Of course theese documents are created by them, so go figure.
I do not relieve the Catholic Church from it's crimes, but please do not think that all the rest of the world is clean and morally unquestionable. There is wrong and there is evil outside of the catholic church.
I have already said that I think Christianity is a mythology, but you believe I must censor myself from daring to say that. Why? I am not anti-mythology as such. I am anti toxic-mythology, and I include a mythology which denies it is a mythology and demands it is historical literalism.
If you want to go into the origins of racism and fear of dark skin it is true that this occurs long before the Christian Church comes to be established, but the Church is of course influenced by this fear of darkness and the unknown. It grows out of this presumption of reality. So what are its beginnings?
The patriarchy, and its psychological division between light and darkness where the former, light, is conceptualized to be superior, and the latter inferior, and from there they impose this prejudice even onto dark skin tone, and anything or body seen as inferior including of course women, and nature, and human natures. And we can very much see this prejudice in Christian scripture and writings. So we agree on this?
But this does not mean you ignore the Church's carrying on of this ignorance and violence, and presume it is 'human nature'. It is not human nature but a series of mythologies which influence each other and need exposing for what they do to the believers in them.
Are you suggesting that human nature is like this and so creates these myths?
In one sense it is in that the people who create these myths have human nature and choose to do so, but it is a misguided nature. A nature cut off from itself so to speak.
It is more like an elitist predatory section of the community will create these stories to have power over others. That is not ALL human nature is it? It's more certain groups of individuals who are control freaks, and they create stories which make it easier for them to keep control, because IF we believe we are sinful, etc etc, then we are divided against ourselves aren't we? We become our own control freak. See how it works?
You haven't answered me yet.
If the Catholic Church is right, that means that God approves of hatred. Which is paradox, because God is Love and dogmatics say (I hope everyone know what a Dogma is.) that God can't commit a sin. Dogmatics also say that God contains every good aspect of all of his creations, but none of the bad aspects.
So if God truly approves of hatred, then either hatred is not evil, but if it is indeed evil and God approves of it, he would commit a sin, and that is impossible, according to Dogmatics.
If homosexuality in itself is evil/wrong/unnatural, than why does it exist in a world that was created by a being of love and goodness?
If homosexuality is a sin, than love between two men is also sin. And if love is a sin, than God is sin(ner).
Which is again, a paradox. And if Love is not God, and God is not Love, than the most powerful force in the universe is not God, which means that if I were to worship anything it wouldn't be him.
And make no mistake Mikey. There is nothing Greater than love. Love can be crushed, it can be broken, it can die, and it can be defeated, but it never fails. If love is at work, everything is secondary in its presence. Every other feeling is an aspect of love, and every act carries a spark of love inside it.
It is the nature of all things to find the easiest way to reach a destination. The water flows where it finds way to flow.
If there is no explanation to a phenomena, we are creating a simple and easily understandable explanation, which is comfortable to our minds, and later, over decades and centuries, we keep modifying it to serve our needs properly.
Or, for the sake of argument, what if the the Muslims are 'right' after all
... or the Hindus ... or the Buddhists ... or the Pagans ... or the Taoists ... or the Seikhs ... or the Jews ... or the Rastafarians ... or the Gnostics ... or the Parsis ... or whatever?
How will you deal with it?
When you talk about water flowing etc that to me sounds a bit Taoist. I am not a Taoist or any 'thing' (I like to stay flexible like water lol), but I do like some of the stuff I have read in the Tao Te Ching.
IF it is human nature to hate and 'fear the other', how come I am against that as some others are in this thread and in the world. OR are you claiming I am of the same ilk? Don't worry about offending me by being honest. I am just trying to dig where your coming from with this conversation.
Can you not see that it is the stories you tell yourself about reality which influence you?
why do some kids grow up racists and others don't? You will see infants playing together, all colours of skin, yet when they get to a certain age some will find a group and then call other individuals and groups bad names and even attack them. Why?
Could it be that they hear things their parents say, that the TV says, both overtly and covertly, and what the school says, and supposed history and religion says and then is influenced by this do you think?
Why? because that's what they see from their parents, that's why. This is what they see in TV, and some of them DECIDES to be racist. Why? Because it is much more simple to hate, than to understand. Children are cruel.
Religion says nothing about black people. It would be foolish to say that racism is a result of catholicism.
However I could imagine some extreemely devoted people to justify their hatred towards a race by religion, but it must be very twisted.
History may cause some people to become racist I think. History teaches us to hate each other for things we didn't commit. It teaches us to hold grudges against people we don't know.
My brother thinks black people are an inferior race, because over 4000 years they have achieved nothing, while whites explored the world and made plenty of technical/scientific/cultural advances. Many people think that way.
But than again, if my brother would befriend a black guy he would see that he is plain wrong.But this is Hungary, and there are very few black people here, and they are also very closed. They hang out with each other, rarely ever interacting with us.
an there are also the intincts. People tend choose the familiar over the unknown. If you have never seen a black guy, never even heard of them and one day you see one you will be possibly scared and you won't know what to do, how to react.
God does not approve Hatred, and God cannot sin, because if he did, then he would be called a liar. It is Mankind through its Fallen Nature that hates on others. Yes God is Love, and his Mercy and Justice cannot be separated from his Love.
Personally, I do not think that God is approving those who are in Violation of what is written in the middle of paragraph #2358 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.
First off, Just being Gay is not a sin, it is acting on it that is known to be sinful in the eyes of the Church, and in the Bible.
Secondly, I do not pick and choose what to believe, I just struggle with issues and Pray for God's Guidance. I cannot separate my Spirituality from Catholicism, and I will not even attempt to separate it, because it is the Glue that holds all things together....just my opinion. Besides, God's will is 1000 times more important than my own feeble will, and NO, I am not self Hating as many of you like to call it.
Does those answer the third one you mentioned?
I am really happy that on a forum site that hugely promotes sexual gratification, we have threads about religious,myths, and spiritus. It makes me wonder if sexual nature and love are so far from spiritual/quantum entanglements as some purist claim.
I will contest the OP and some of the comments first by stating my background because or makeup tends to influence our beliefs. nature. I am american, black, christian raised and gay/bi and consider myself educated and gnostic, occultist*occult as unseen knowledge * I believe science cannot explain our lives fully. But I do also believe christian doctrine, catholic or protestant is a creation myth, as many religions are. I don't think it is a simple story to explain the unknown as many here claim. These faiths, may attempt to explain nature but the adherents mostly find it away to explain their lives.
This christian myth has power because of its emotional influence over people, the history of people crusading and it being one of the first stories to go into written form. Thus for many years, those who considered themselves educated explored Christ,read and spread Christ.
I disagree that humans are hate the unknown and are natural phobic. There are obviously some be these tend a lot more cultural tradition and learning, humans tend to be pretty curious, sexually, intellectually and reach out. You have to tell children not to go running around, not to fiddle with everything, an not to speak to strangers, who to dislike as groups..obviously we have personal attractions but to say we are stick with our own traditional animal, no I think not. That is another reason I see religion and christianity having power it sets modes of behavior and limitations and impossible stakes. your soul, is a risk if you step out of line..thats pretty strong motivator.
My question/problems with it stem from the paradox of supreme being creating imperfect beings and requesting/asking them to be godlike. Why would a god request this seems kindof cruel. Either you create a universe and its so awesome humans look at it and say woah this is wonderful ..something grand must created it,and me...but im so horrible and must be imperfect..let me go against my god given drives...and act inhumane or the creator might be a little flawed. I tend to thank the latter and am always reminded of a art-history professor who told me of one artist "he thought the best reprensentation of the human spirit, was the human body, so perfectly imperfect, so varied so vulgar, and yet man to women, coal to ivory..we find ourselves in each other." There is something so familiar. My belief is christianity is western *myth of great magnetism because of the money,wars,and grand stakes it has evoked,heaven,hell, souls, and a promise of forgiveness if you happen to murder,steal, cheat or swindle..you can still be forgiven that type of hope galvanizes people.
Unfortunately all to often, people do cherry pick their beliefs, proclaim themselves, their families and people who they like and agree with 'saved', 'enlightenment', entitled' and damn everyone else savages, pagans, sinners etc.thus expendable.
*myths, this word is literary, referring to stories. Please people of faith don't get buthurt when someone refers to your book,with its dramas as such. Your own history may one day become a myth is your actions are so awesome or fearsome that others choose to tell it. You will have little control over embellishments,contradictions an complete miscarriages of your name..as it is with Christ and Buddhas of the world. As above and so bellow , as with me and you.
Again this shows the evil of your religion. The fact that it says that being gay is not a sin but acting on it is a sin is like someone saying that having blue eyes is not a sin but displaying them is. Denying gays the ability to have natural sexual relations is hateful and anyone who is gay but believes that they must deny their sexuality is a self hater. Expressing your sexuality is apart of being gay and hating gay relations is hating homosexuality and homosexuals because it is hating gays natural sexuality as expressed by their orientation. Plus as science shows there is nothing wrong with gay sex and it is not psychologically healthy for gays or anyone to live a life of sexual deprivation. The fact that your god and Church would have gays live miserable lives without sexual and romantic fulfillment again shows the evil nature of your religion. Next your god's will is not 1000 times more important then human will. Our will and happiness is just as important as any gods and we have the right to live happy and fulfilling lives. The fact that you think that your God's will is more important then human's will or well being is nothing more then an example of the dictatorial mindset that sets some dictator's will as more important then the will and happiness of the masses.
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Last edited by opinterph; February 10th, 2013 at 12:39 AM. Reason: no flame zone
As an atheist, I believe science has not explained our lives fully. Whether it can has yet to be claimed, never mind proven.
It is also apparent that religions have pretended to explain our lives fully, attributing, according to their imagination, purpose, origins, obligations, and any manner of other qualities which should properly be called "guesses" instead of "revelations" or "commandments" or "divine laws."
Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.
Hmmm I am curious. How come the thread I started questioning the over-bearance of Christianity-ism on these boards and the myth in general is 'closed for review' and yet none of the other threads about Christianity are? And where Mikey Love--who has quite a dominant presence here-- will suggest that gay people should not have sex, that seems alright and accepted in a gay community (but don't get me wrong. I would never ever secretly contact JUB to have YOUR threads closed I assure you. I have always supported freedom of speech and questioning). Can someone explain?
Is it because Christian JUB supporters have been complaining to the mods here about the conversation of the subject I initiated and they have successfully closed the thread and censored any challenges to their beliefs by others who don't share them?
I am having to speculate because other members participating in the thread were not considered before the thread was closed. There was no announcement by the moderator for their reasons for it to be closed 'for review' or anything, and so we have just been silenced and that seems to be that!
This reminds me of how these belief systems operate. IF they don't have the power to burn you at the stake for contradicting their cherished beliefs, or house arrest you, they will find other means to shut you up.
Last edited by ludolfo; February 2nd, 2013 at 02:16 AM.
Come on you are being paranoid about this. There are dozens of threads where christianity is being subjected to various insults and they are not closed.
Plus if you think religion sucks I am okay with it. I just want you to see that even without religion things still wouldn't be perfect, and christianity is not the all-powerful demon you believe it is.
I would have also liked to continue our debate, because I find it quite interesting.
Last edited by Coward92; February 2nd, 2013 at 03:01 AM.
so what was the reason for the thread beingthen in your opinion? We don't know because we weren't even told this was going to happen, or informed why it has happened, so do you know something we don't?closed for preview
I seriously doubt that...Is it because Christian JUB supporters have been complaining to the mods here about the conversation of the subject I initiated and they have successfully closed the thread and censored any challenges to their beliefs by others who don't share them?
sometimes the Mods will close a thread because tempers start running high in them; among other reasons ( common in CE&P threads)
we have a forum here where you can start a thread where you can talk to the Mods privately...only you and the Mods can see the thread you start
this might be the best place for you to ask your question
The mods on this sub-forum appear to be mainly of the Christian persuasion and easily take at offence at criticism of that particular belief-system.
They only ever seem to close a thread when it starts to get interesting. This tends to be when the critics of Christianity outweigh the supporters and/or the Christian posters are clearly failing in their arguments.
The thread will be reopened mostly intact. There is a recurring problem of members taking discussions to a personal level, including the addition of insults that contravene the No-Flame designation of this sub-forum. It is entirely acceptable to disagree with the viewpoints expressed by other members; however, it is not okay to turn that into negative personal characterizations.
I dont recall anyone reporting the thread, whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?, though perhaps it was reported somewhere along the way. I read every post in this sub-forum and observe each thread as the discussion develops. I generally try to be lenient and avoid excessive intrusion.
The discussions here do not constitute some type of competition or contest. It is a place to exchange information and ideas, without the interpersonal flaming. Topics are not limited to religion, but may include spirituality that is not based on religious concepts, and various other matters of philosophy or reasoning. Perhaps we need a new sticky to better explain.
Astute observation.
Why was the two threads merged, they were started by two different Guys?
To answer your question, it comes down to three things: location, location and location.
Many skeptics fail to understand how ancient the roots of Christianity are, and they don't fully appreciate how centrally and crucially located The Levant was in the ancient world. Geographically, The Levant was at a cultural cross-roads. Ugarit in particular was an important ancient Phoenician port. More important, though, was how Levantine culture contributed to the development of the modern written word known to the West.
Ancient Phoenician script was a crucial development in modern phonetic alphabets. Although it still contained hieroglyphic elements, as you would discover remain in Hebrew and other daughter scripts, it had the important quality of being capable of transcribing sounds. Please, try to appreciate the enormity of this. This was huge. The Greek alphabet, which is based on the Phoenician alphabet, has been used to write some of the most influential works in Western history.
Now, I have a theory that at least some of the works of the Old Testament might have originally been written in ancient Phoenician, though some of the writings, such as Proverbs, might actually go back to ancient Sumer. The Book of Proverbs does resemble ancient Sumerian wisdom literature, and it reads somewhat similarly to the Instructions of Shuruppak. In any case, it would not be far-fetched due to the references in the Book of Job and others to some ancient Ugaritic figures (Ugarit was an ancient Phoenician port in The Levant).
Equally important, though, is the heritage of the Book of Genesis, also known as the Bereshit. The Bereshit has figures and events in it that correspond with actual events in ancient times. For example, the flood story seems to correspond with the eruption at Thera in about the 1500's BCE. You must understand how much of a scar this eruption left on the ancient Levant. The flood would have been immense, and it would have wiped out entire civilizations. It took centuries for even the ancient Egyptians to recover from it, and their antediluvian zoomorphic gods were almost lost to our culture, which would have been a tragedy.
In any case, there might have been religions more ancient than those of the ancient Hebrews, but they were probably one of the earliest cultures to actually transcribe their records into this new form of writing. Therefore, they ended up being disproportionately influential in the ancient world and beyond due to the advantage that this gave them.
As for Christianity in particular, the Gospels actually have a particularly attractive message. If you have not read them, then I suggest that you do. Their contents are actually genuinely heartwarming.
On the other hand, I honestly don't know how the Pauline Epistles even survived. Paul was a total dick by all accounts. He was a priggish, sanctimonious ass. He was a horrible misogynist, particularly if First Timothy is anything to go by. The only significance that he really has is that he was an important leader in the early Church, and he probably helped organize the Christians into a unified political force. Without him, the Christians might never have gained very much political power. They would have most likely fractured more than they eventually did anyway. He was still a complete boner, though. If I could go back in time to give that guy a swift kick in the nuts, I would.
Anyway, the book that is apparently the strangest is Revelation, and the question that many have asked throughout history is just how in the hell the damn thing got there. Well, it was originally written in Greek pidgin, and it was probably extremely popular among early Greek evangelists trying to appeal to ignorant working-class youth and twenty-somethings. It has a perverse sex appeal, and it was probably the Twilight of its time. Although it is essentially stroke material, it is actually fairly good stroke material when you get right down to it.
In any case, Westerners are really a lot more Pagan than they are Christian, even today. They may go to Church on Sundays, but they spend the rest of the week reading Lord of the Rings, which Tolkein based on the Poetic Eddas, and Twilight, which is descended from a literary tradition that has roots in ancient Frankish culture. The Iliad and the Odyssey are required reading, not the Bible. By comparison, the influence of Christianity has been pretty weak, and even Christianity itself has, in practice, been infested with Pagan rituals. There is nothing about Yule in the Bible, after all. Our Pagan traditions have a much stronger influence on how we think of the world and ourselves. Therefore, to say that Christianity is disproportionately influential would actually be false.
Nevertheless, Christianity has incredibly ancient roots, and it warrants our respect.
Why, because you argue it has ancient roots? Why should we respect it if it promotes homophobia? I choose that specifically because most of us at these forums are gay, and various diverse forms of what that may mean.
You seem to be well read about your favorite religion--though I don't necessarily agree with all you say--so does this mean you are a practicing Christian? And/or do you have gay friends who are Christians?
Actually, my favorite religion is that of ancient Ugarit.
As for the homophobia in Christianity, it is all Paul's fault. He was a misogynistic son of a bitch. If I could go back in time, I swear I would go back and kick that jerk in the nuts so hard....grrrrr. He was not even painted in an attractive light in the Bible. In every aspect of his character, he was an obscene prig and a jerk. If I could kick that guy's butt, I would pay money.
Anyway, Christianity did not create modern homophobia. People did. One of the earliest individuals to truly persecute gay people, in Christian Europe, was Theodosius I. That was the least of his crimes, but it did set a precedent that we are still untangling the consequences of today. Theodosius was not a nice man. St. Ambrose was generally appalled by him. However, Theodosius I ordered gay men to be sentenced to death by burning.
Earlier tyrants of Rome persecuted gay people, but some of those were not even clearly Christian. For example, Philip the Arab is considered by some thinkers to have been Christian, but this is really very dubious. One of his atrocities was the so-called "Secular Games," in which more than a thousand gladiators died as well as many ill-fated animals. One thing he tried to outlaw was male prostitution. He was not much of a Christian, though, even though Christianity was a very popular religion at the time.
No, I do not blame Christianity, per se, for homophobia. I blame evil men.
As for why I have respect for Christianity, I actually appreciate the fact that the Christians helped domesticate my Pagan ancestors. Although I am very proud of the traditions of my Pagan ancestors, their rituals involving human sacrifice had to go. Furthermore, Anglo-Saxon culture had annoying macho-ethics in which homosexuality was not unto itself an object of persecution, but the "receptive" partners were kicked around pretty badly and treated like dogs. As someone who is always the "receptive" partner in sex, I have a serious problem with that.
I find some present-day Christian sects to be utterly repulsive. That is different from my feelings about Christianity overall. Christianity is as divided about gay rights as society at large. And remember, because atheists are very much a minority, the majority of those who support gay rights are Christians, whether you like it or not.
But I am an atheist, just to be clear.
Last edited by Brian Smith; February 10th, 2013 at 11:57 AM.
This is an Atheist I can respect. How many Pagans/Neo-pagans can say the same thing this Atheist just stated. I have more respect for anyone who defends what they find good in all of Christianity, instead of trying to tear down an entire Institute for the wrong-doings of a few evil/sinful Leaders. The Church has had its Anti-Popes in History, even has had evil Bishops and Priests whose only concern is the gain of Temporal Powers. The Church did not have temporal powers til Pope Leo the Great (about 440 A.D.). I believe that the Church would have been very different today if it had not the Temporal Powers, though those powers are limited since the 1800's, also, the Church is not a Democracy.
I agree with Brian Smith here because he is basically intelligent enough to realize that Christianty didn't create all the evil in the world.
Demonizing a subject is foolish. Take a look at both sides of the coin instead.
Take a look at Matthew 19, where Jesus speaks of Eunuchs in a positive light. In the culture your Jesus lived in, any man who was not potent with women was considered to be a eunuch, and this included many gay men. In fact, there were probably gay men among his followers. Furthermore, "sodomites" have, for most of history, been people who were rude and inhospitable to strangers. Your Jesus was not a homophobe by any stretch of the imagination.
And Paul the Apostle was a jerk. Seriously, I challenge you to sit down and read everything that man wrote. He was obviously tortured over whether or not he was genuine, and he was obviously a more-or-less well-meaning prig who was trying to do something decent. He was an imperfect man. If he could be summoned to our time, he would probably acknowledge that. He was literally the kind of person that you long to kick sand in his face, alright? This is not to say he did not do noble things in his lifetime.
Now, if you really read the Old Testament, you will eventually realize that many of the books in it, including the parts known in some traditions as the Pentateuch, are not entirely composed of wonderful ideas. For example, there is a place in Deuteronomy that suggests condemning people who were bastard children or descended from someone who was a bastard child, condemning a person for the sins not only of his parents but of his ancestors going back 10 generations. I will leave it to you to find where this is. If you have literacy in the Bible, it is plain that certain parts of it are ancient records that, although they were not laws uttered by a divine spirit, are a cultural treasure.
And that perspective is what distinguishes a secular humanist from someone who is merely an atheist.
Last edited by Brian Smith; February 10th, 2013 at 12:37 PM.
If you would consider the proceedings of the Nuremberg Trials a "cultural treasure" then we agree on the vocabulary. The texts of christendom really do document the most terrible and gruesome conduct done in the name of the faith, and even unflinchingly give it a divine blush, attributing much of the cruelty to the actual hand of god.
In the sense that it records an ever-receding depravity of the human condition, it is a precious resource. But I might say I'm wary of it rather than respectful of it; the latter word is too likely to be taken as an indicator of esteem or as an endorsement.
Last edited by bankside; February 10th, 2013 at 12:59 PM.
Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.
The Pentateuch is actually very interesting. I find it to be a lot more interesting than later writings, and I pay it a lot more attention.
Now, as to whether I would have people live their entire lives in accordance with the writings of the Pentateuch, let me give you this gem right here:
When I say that it is a cultural treasure, I do not mean that we ought to follow it as our law. I mean simply that it is a cultural treasure. There are pieces of history in it that can give us incredibly valuable insights as to who we are. My respect for this book is immense.From Numbers 5...
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:
26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.
Forced abortion is an abomination in any culture.
Last edited by Brian Smith; February 10th, 2013 at 01:30 PM.
Last edited by Coward92; February 10th, 2013 at 03:06 PM.
Actually the homophobia comes from the old testament in Leviticus.
As for modern homophobia, Christianity did not create homophobia but it spread homophobia across the Western world. As for humans sacrifice this was a rare thing in the European Pagan world. In fact the Old Testament are full of examples of human sacrifice to Yahweh. Also I wouldn't say that Christianity "domesticated" the Pagan world because in reality it tought them religious intolerance, sex and body hatred as well as extreme sexism and homophobia. Also as for the Anglo-Saxons from my research I don't think that receptive partners were treated like dogs as much as they were basically considered on the same level as women and thus did not have the full rights of a man.
I am aware that many Christians support gay rights however Christianity and all of the Abrahamic religions are springs of homophobia.
In actuality I think it is very possible to not respect your enemies and not underestimate your enemies. For instance if you don't respect them you realize that they are capable of anything. So any low down or cruel move they commit will never surprise you.
Last edited by Mariatenebre; February 10th, 2013 at 03:10 PM.
Leviticus is actually a very fascinating book.
It was already there. Ancient Europe was an extremely misogynistic culture, for the most part, and "passive" male homosexuals got very short shrift.Christianity did not create homophobia but it spread homophobia across the Western world.
It was actually more common than you think, and so was slavery. Also, the ancient Pagans were often incredibly racist. Pagan Europe was not some fine utopia that Christianity rudely intruded upon. The truth about its history is a lot more complicated.As for humans sacrifice this was a rare thing in the European Pagan world.
The rivals of Christianity did not just sit there quietly and peacefully. Try to comprehend in your mind a Europe in which there was not only Christianity, but there were many other religions there that were competing for absolute dominance. Each was literally intent on trouncing all other religions out of existence. This includes Tengrism, which was at one time a very strong contender for dominance in parts of Europe. The Pagans were not helpless cupcakes by any stretch of the imagination. They fought long and hard, and they were not intent on staying nicely in one place.
Now, as for how homosexuality was treated by the Anglo-Saxons, how it was treated in practice probably varied with the time period, but it was actually a crime in early Germanic law. According to Tacitus, those condemned for homosexuality, cowardice or infamy were thrown into a bog or something similar. This was before Christianity really took root in that culture.
It was actually a philosophical movement that really led to gay people being persecuted so widely, though. Under the idea of individuals like Thomas Aquinas, many governments outlawed a number of things that were deemed "unnatural," and homosexuality was on the list. This was not a theological movement as much as it was a philosophical movement in the context of a culture that was largely dominated by Christianity.
History is not as cut-and-dried as it is often made out to be.
Last edited by Brian Smith; February 10th, 2013 at 04:10 PM.
and Brian Smith, it seems to me you thinks you know it all, and are 'teaching' us what history really was. Seems a bit arrogant to me. You provide no sources for these 'truth's you are expounding here.
Actually all of this you are putting out is your interpretation. I hope you can accept this?
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
What matters now is Christian homophopbia, and how the myth of Christianity has caused so much misery in the world. You miss all this out in your praise of it. I am not accepting your version of history. It does not gell with mine.


text:
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Fuji Altamira 2.2 C Road Bike - 2013
The Altamira represents the culmination of Fuji's relentless pursuit of the lightest and highest performing road bike. For 2013, the Altamira 2.2 C features amazing components, an electronic drivetrain and sophisticated frame technology, and ties it all together on just two wheels.The Altamira frame utilizes Fuji's revolutionary High Compaction molding process, ETC chainstays and super-thin seatstays for an ideal combination of efficiency and comfort in an all-around competition grade road platform. The C5 carbon weaving process translates into a frame that is incredibly stiff without adding unnecessary weight. A series of internal molds are used to help smooth the interior walls of the frame in critical areas. This helps eliminate wrinkles in their sheets of carbon, maximize resin flow for strength and gain greater compaction. The Altamira frame has a Shimano Press-Fit BB86 bottom bracket for added stiffness and weight savings. The tapered headtube gives the rider better handling and realization of power transmission, while the ETC chainstays add increased compliance and stability, giving the Altamira 2.2 C an unbelievable feel for miles to come.
The Altamira 2.2 C features a cutting-edge Rotor 3DF compact crankset and a Shimano Ultegra Di2 electronic drivetrain. Changing gears has never been so easy, effortless and fast. Ultegra Di2 features an automatic trimming front derailleur, so you never have to hear the sound of chain rub again. The shifters act with digital push button shifting and are ergonomically shaped for optimal comfort and control. The lever reach adjust fits all hand sizes. The Di2 rear derailleur is pre-programmed allowing you to shift gears quickly and accurately in all conditions. The derailleur is immune to rough circumstances and protected from impact damage by its reinforced inner cage. It has a maximum sprocket of 28-teeth for wide-range gearing, further adding to the comfort of the Altamira. The battery, at the heart of the drivetrain, uses lithium ion technology and guarantees a range of 1,250 miles, or almost half the length of the Tour de France, before it needs to be recharged, which takes just 90 minutes.
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- bottom bracket:
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- chain:
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- crankset:
- Rotor 3DF, 50/34T
- fork:
- FC-440 carbon w/ tapered carbon steerer & carbon dropout
- frame:
- C5 high-modulus carbon, integrated head tube w/ 1 1/2" lower, oversized PIIS BB86 shell, double water bottle mounts, C5 high-modulus carbon thin seatstays, oversized chainstays
- front derailleur:
- Shimano Ultegra Di2, braze-on mount
- grips/tape:
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- handlebar:
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- headset:
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- levers:
- Shimano Ultegra
- pedals:
- None
- rack mounts:
- None
- rear derailleur:
- Shimano Ultegra Di2, 10-speed
- saddle:
- Oval R700 w/ CrMo-Ti hollow rails
- seatpost:
- Oval 905, carbon 31.6mm x 350mm
- shifters:
- Shimano Ultegra Di2 Electronic STI shifter/brake, Flight Deck-compatible, 20-speed
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- Oval 713 3D-forged 7050 alloy, 31.8mm, +/- 6 degrees
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- wheelset:
- Oval 327 aero alloy clincher, 20/24H sealed bearing hubs, stainless bladed spokes
- rating:
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subset: commoncrawl


text:
Crystal River Preserve State Park
Located on one of the primitive trails named Dixie Shores, the winding waters that sculpt the marshes are glimpsed through palms and palmettos.
A kayak and manatee share the blue-green waters of the Preserve State Park. This rotund gray seacow casts a curious glance up through the water.
Perched on a rocky karst outcropping at the edge of the Crystal River, a Great Blue Heron lends his profile of long legs and beak to the wet, calm scene.
A bottlenose dolphin keeping time with the Park tourboat begins a leap out of the water, leaving a cascade of frothy foam behind it.
A small male diamond-backed terrapin nuzzles next to a large female in a tidal pool of young mangroves. These brackish water turtles have spotted faces.
On a cooler fall day, an eight foot alligator can be seen soaking up the sun, while napping along the brackish waters during low tide on the Preserve.
A curious gray, masked raccoon peers out from the high branches of a persimmon tree, where he is caught snacking behind the Park's Visitor Center.
Two stately bald eagles perch high in a tree draped with Spanish Moss. They survey their marsh territory while calm blue skies await their next flight.


text:
Adidas Makes Sponsorship Choices
A huge brand like Adidas needs to be sure it's getting the most from its sponsorship choices.
Adidas handles sponsorship at all levels, from the biggest sporting events, such as the Olympics, to small charity projects that need the boost of a big brand. Adidas receives hundreds of sponsorship requests from a wide range of organisations and people and simply can't agree to partner everyone. So how does it make its sponsorship choices?
Adidas and SponsorshipOf course, for Adidas, much of its sponsorship programme is about awareness. As a business, Adidas needs to sell products in order to make a profit. The better the brand is known and the more successful its sponsorship partners are, the more likely the company is to make sales. Sponsorship is often a straightforward decision about benefits to the company versus the costs of the sponsorship, but Adidas also partners much smaller and seemingly insignificant events. That's because the company feels it has a responsibility to work with communities across the world, particularly to promote sport, but also to help other groups to achieve a common goal. This has possibly become more relevant as ethical practices groups target big brands and challenge them on their working practices and what they're giving back to the communities that produce their goods.
The Global Adidas BrandAlthough Adidas is a German company, its sponsorship deals give it global coverage and awareness. Second only to Nike in the sportswear market, Adidas is a huge brand and has an exceptional sponsorship budget. Currently, Adidas sponsors events, teams and organisations that include:
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How many of you with Directv think Dish is getting better than Directv
Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:08 PM
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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:12 PM
Dish has never appealed to me, as their PQ for HD is less and for the channels I watch, the price was within a dollar, the last time I checked.
Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:42 PM
Directv & Sunday Ticket Sub Since 8/19/2008
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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:02 AM
Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:32 AM
Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:42 AM
They have many more has I'm interested in too.
Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:21 AM
Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:52 AM
Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:57 AM
Dish does not appeal to me. They don't have Sunday Ticket,, MLB Extra Innings, Mega March Madness, FSN OK, still think there are WB & UPN affiliates out there, are in a contract dispute with 2 of my markets 4 locals right now. Need I say more?
Let's not forget the YES network. Also can I record 5 different programs with one receiver?
Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:17 AM
I don't really care for dish's upcoming Hopper/Joey for WH, much less their current installed base of ViP receivers' inability to integrate with it.
Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:25 AM
DTV is behind Dish when it comes to basic HD. DTV's PQ is a little better than Dish but not much. DTV doesn't need more RSN's or PPV channels. They need to catch Dish as far as HD goes. Would I bite the bullet and switch back to Dish? If they offered me the Hopper.....YES!!
new customers get 1 Hopper and up to 3 joey's for FREE
Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:26 AM
Let's not forget the YES network. Also can I record 5 different programs with one receiver?
Not with one box;
Only three tuners per their upcoming "Hopper," so you would need two in parallel.
Unless you consider the Hopper's "PrimeTime AnyTime" (PTAT) feature which can actually block record the big four networks simultaneously one one tuner between 8:00 PM -11:00 PM local as a sort of "virtual-increase" in physical tuners per Hopper.
Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:45 AM
Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:47 AM
Would never switch to Dish. You never know what illegal crap they will pull. Their reputation precedes them....
typical answer of a fanboy
Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:11 AM
its obvious people gotta go with what appeals to them and directv is mostly all about the sports fan. myself, im not a sports fan at all. i switched from cable from a referal offer and got $10 month on top of the new member offers. so that was a good deal for me at the time.
i think the hopper and joey look promising and that could get me to switch in a few years.... maybe. i do like my directv alot
Xtra + HD Extra Pack
SiriusXM subscriber
Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:11 AM
typical answer of a fanboy
I wouldn't say it's typical. My main beef with their management is the carriage disputes. They pull channels more often than DirecTV. There's a fine line between getting the best price for your profits and raising monthly fees or not getting a deal done and dropping the channel.
Plus at least locally it seems they've been down more. At one point they moved the Cincinnati locals to a satellite a lot of customers didn't have access to and they had to wait for however long it took to fix the issue and move them back. I don't see DirecTV moving my locals to 119 or something. When they did move things, the average customer didn't notice.
Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:11 AM
Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:19 AM
DIRECTV customer since 1995.
Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:25 AM
Compairing DirecTV with DISH is like compairing a Rolls Royce with a Volkswagon Beetle. DISH reminds me of that old rent a car commercial being number two but saying they try harder but always coming up short. Need I remind everyone of Charlie's batting average when negotiating with channel providers?
Directv beeing the Beetle in this case
Need i remind everyone that dish as more HD


text:
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text:
According to Bolivar County Deputy Coroner Murry Roark, the incident occurred at
116 S. Illinois Central Ave.
Jessie Martinez, 51, shot and killed his girlfriend Polly Hart, 45, before Martinez turned the gun on himself.
"Martinez was still alive when I arrived at the scene but he died shortly after at the Bolivar Medical Center," said Roark.
The plan had been to airlift Martinez to the University Medical Center in Jackson but he did not survive.
Hart was pronounced dead at the scene.
Roark said Martinez called his nephew and admitted to shooting Hart, then offered his belongings to the nephew and alerted him of his plan to shoot himself.
The unnamed nephew immediately called Roark, who was the first to respond to the incident.
The Bolivar County Sheriff's Department also arrived on scene.


text:
The apostle sets forth his office, and his qualifications for it, and his call to it. (1-7) Also the noble purposes answered by it. (8-12) He prays for the Ephesians. (13-19) And adds a thanksgiving. (20,21)
Verses 1-7 For having preached the doctrine of truth, the apostle was a prisoner, but a prisoner of Jesus Christ; the object of special protection and care, while thus suffering for him. All the gracious offers of the gospel, and the joyful tidings it contains, come from the rich grace of God; it is the great means by which the Spirit works grace in the souls of men. The mystery, is that secret, hidden purpose of salvation through Christ. This was not so fully and clearly shown in the ages before Christ, as unto the prophets of the New Testament. This was the great truth made known to the apostle, that God would call the Gentiles to salvation by faith in Christ. An effectual working of Divine power attends the gifts of Divine grace. As God appointed Paul to the office, so he qualified him for it.
Verses 8-12 Those whom God advances to honourable employments, he makes low in their own eyes; and where God gives grace to be humble, there he gives all other needful grace. How highly he speaks of Jesus Christ; the unsearchable riches of Christ! Though many are not enriched with these riches; yet how great a favour to have them preached among us, and to have an offer of them! And if we are not enriched with them it is our own fault. The first creation, when God made all things out of nothing, and the new creation, whereby sinners are made new creatures by converting grace, are of God by Jesus Christ. His riches are as unsearchable and as sure as ever, yet while angels adore the wisdom of God in the redemption of his church, the ignorance of self-wise and carnal men deems the whole to be foolishness.
Verses 13-19 The apostle seems to be more anxious lest the believers should be discouraged and faint upon his tribulations, than for what he himself had to bear. He asks for spiritual blessings, which are the best blessings. Strength from the Spirit of God in the inner man; strength in the soul; the strength of faith, to serve God, and to do our duty. If the law of Christ is written in our hearts, and the love of Christ is shed abroad there, then Christ dwells there. Where his Spirit dwells, there he dwells. We should desire that good affections may be fixed in us. And how desirable to have a fixed sense of the love of God in Christ to our souls! How powerfully the apostle speaks of the love of Christ! The breadth shows its extent to all nations and ranks; the length, that it continues from everlasting to everlasting; the depth, its saving those who are sunk into the depths of sin and misery; the height, its raising them up to heavenly happiness and glory. Those who receive grace for grace from Christ's fulness, may be said to be filled with the fulness of God. Should not this satisfy man? Must he needs fill himself with a thousand trifles, fancying thereby to complete his happiness?
Verses 20-21 It is proper always to end prayers with praises. Let us expect more, and ask for more, encouraged by what Christ has already done for our souls, being assured that the conversion of sinners, and the comfort of believers, will be to his glory, for ever and ever.
Ephesians 3:1-21 . HIS APOSTOLIC OFFICE TO MAKE KNOWN THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST REVEALED BY THE SPIRIT: PRAYER THAT BY THE SAME SPIRIT THEY MAY COMPREHEND THE VAST LOVE OF CHRIST: DOXOLOGY ENDING THIS DIVISION OF THE EPISTLE.
As the first chapter treated of THE FATHER'S office; and the second, THE SON'S, so this, that of THE SPIRIT.
1. of Jesus Christ--Greek, "Christ Jesus." The office is the prominent thought in the latter arrangement; the person, in the former. He here marks the Messiahship of "Christ," maintained by him as the origin of his being a "prisoner," owing to the jealousy of the Jews being roused at his preaching it to the Gentiles. His very bonds were profitable to ("for" or "in behalf of you") Gentiles ( Ephesians 3:13 , 2 Timothy 2:10 ). He digresses at "For this cause," and does not complete the sentence which he had intended, until Ephesians 3:14 , where he resumes the words, "For this cause," namely, because I know this your call of God as Gentiles ( Ephesians 2:11-22 ), to be "fellow heirs" with the Jews ( Ephesians 3:6 ), "I bow my knees to" the Father of our common Saviour ( Ephesians 3:14 Ephesians 3:15 ) to confirm you in the faith by His Spirit. "I Paul," expresses the agent employed by the Spirit to enlighten them, after he had been first enlightened himself by the same Spirit ( Ephesians 3:3-5 Ephesians 3:9 ).
2. If--The Greek does not imply doubt: "Assuming (what I know to be the fact, namely) that ye have heard," &c. "If, as I presume," The indicative in the Greek shows that no doubt is implied: "Seeing that doubtless," &c. He by this phrase delicately reminds them of their having heard from himself, and probably from others subsequently, the fact. do not disprove the address of this Epistle to the Ephesians. Compare Acts 20:17-24 .
the dispensation--"The office of dispensing, as a steward, the grace of God which was (not 'is') given me to you-ward," namely, to dispense to you.
3. he made known--The oldest manuscripts read, "That by revelation was the mystery (namely, of the admission of the Gentiles, Ephesians 3:6 , 1:9 ) made known unto me ( Galatians 1:12 )."
as I wrote afore--namely, in this Epistle ( Ephesians 1:9 Ephesians 1:10 ), the words of which he partly repeats.
4. understand my knowledge--"perceive my understanding" [ALFORD], or "intelligence." "When ye read," implies that, deep as are the mysteries of this Epistle, the way for all to understand them is to read it ( 2 Timothy 3:15 2 Timothy 3:16 ). By perceiving his understanding of the mysteries, they, too, will be enabled to understand.
the mystery of Christ--The "mystery" is Christ Himself, once hidden, but now revealed ( Colossians 1:27 ).
5. in other ages--Greek, "generations."
not made known--He does not say, "has not been revealed." Making known by revelation is the source of making known by preaching [BENGEL]. The former was vouchsafed only to the prophets, in order that they might make known the truth so revealed to men in general.
unto the sons of men--men in their state by birth, as contrasted with those illuminated "by the Spirit" (Greek, "IN the Spirit," compare Revelation 1:10 ), Matthew 16:17 .
as--The mystery of the call of the Gentiles (of which Paul speaks here) was not unknown to the Old Testament prophets ( Isaiah 56:6 Isaiah 56:7 , 49:6 ). But they did not know it with the same explicit distinctness "As" it has been now known ( Acts 10:19 Acts 10:20 , 11:18-21 ). They probably did not know that the Gentiles were to be admitted without circumcision or that they were to be on a level with the Jews in partaking of the grace of God. The gift of "the Spirit" in its fulness was reserved for the New Testament that Christ might thereby be glorified. The epithet, "holy," marks the special consecration of the New Testament "prophets" (who are here meant) by the Spirit, compared with which even the Old Testament prophets were but "sons of men" ( Ezekiel 2:3 , and elsewhere).
6. Translate, "That the Gentiles are," &c. "and fellow members of the same body, and fellow partakers of the (so the oldest manuscripts read, not 'HIS') promise, in Christ Jesus (added in the oldest manuscripts), through the Gospel." It is "in Christ Jesus" that they are made "fellow heirs" in the inheritance of GOD: "of the same body" under the Head, CHRIST JESUS; and "fellow partakers of the promise" in the communion of THE HOLY SPIRIT ( Ephesians 1:13 , Hebrews 6:4 ). The Trinity is thus alluded to, as often elsewhere in this Epistle ( Ephesians 2:19 Ephesians 2:20 Ephesians 2:22 ).
7. Whereof--"of which" Gospel.
according to--in consequence of, and in accordance with, "the gift of the grace of God."
given--"which (gift of grace) was given to me by (Greek, 'according to,' as in Ephesians 3:20 , 1:19 : as the result of, and in proportion to) the effectual working (Greek, 'energy,' or 'in-working') of His power."
8. am--Not merely was I in times past, but I still am the least worthy of so high an office (compare 1 Timothy 1:15 , end).
least of all saints--not merely "of all apostles" ( 1 Corinthians 15:9 1 Corinthians 15:10 ).
is--Greek, "has been given."
among--omitted in the oldest manuscripts Translate, "to announce to the Gentiles the glad tidings of the unsearchable ( Job 5:9 ) riches," namely, of Christ's grace ( Ephesians 1:7 , 2:7 ). Romans 11:33 , "unsearchable" as a mine inexhaustible, whose treasures can never be fully explored ( Ephesians 3:18 Ephesians 3:19 ).
9. to make all men see--Greek, "to enlighten all" ( Ephesians 1:18 , Psalms 18:28 , Hebrews 6:4 ). "All" (compare Colossians 1:28 ).
fellowship--The oldest manuscripts read, "economy," or "dispensation" (compare Colossians 1:25 Colossians 1:26 ; and good to God at this time to dispense (through me and others, His stewards) what heretofore was a mystery." ELLICOTT explains it, "the arrangement," or "regulation" of the mystery (the union of Jews and Gentiles in Christ) which was now to be humbly traced and acknowledged in the fact of its having secretly existed in the counsel of God, and now having been revealed to the heavenly powers by means of the Church.
from the beginning of the world--Greek, "from (the beginning of) the ages." Compare Ephesians 1:4 , Romans 16:25 , 1 Corinthians 2:7 . The "ages" are the vast successive periods of time, marked by successive stages of creation and orders of beings.
in God--"hidden in" His counsels ( Ephesians 1:9 ).
created all things by Jesus Christ--God's creation of the world and all things therein is the foundation of the rest of the "economy," which is freely dispensed according to the universal power of God [BENGEL]. AS God created "the whole range of things" (so the Greek), physical and spiritual alike, He must have an absolute right to adjust all things as He will. Hence, we may see His right to keep the mystery of world-wide salvation in Christ "hidden in Himself," till his own good time for revealing it. The oldest manuscripts omit "by Jesus Christ."
10. The design of God in giving Paul grace to proclaim to the Gentiles the mystery of salvation heretofore hidden.
now--first: opposed to "hidden from the beginning of the world" ( Ephesians 3:5 ).
unto the principalities and--Greek adds "the"
powers--unto the various orders of good angels primarily, as these dwell "in the heavenly places" in the highest sense; "known" to their adoring joy ( 1 Timothy 3:16 , 1 Peter 1:12 ). Secondarily, God's wisdom in redemption is made known to evil angels, who dwell "in heavenly places" in a lower sense, namely, the air (compare Ephesians 2:2 with Ephesians 6:12 ); "known" to their dismay ( 1 Corinthians 15:24 , Colossians 2:15 ).
might be known--Translate, "may be known."
by the church--"by means of," or "through the Church," which is the "theater" for the display of God's manifold wisdom ( Luke 15:10 , 1 Corinthians 4:9 ): "a spectacle (Greek, 'theater') to angels." Hence, angels are but our "fellow servants" ( Revelation 19:10 ).
manifold wisdom--though essentially one, as Christ is one, yet varying the economy in respect to places, times, and persons ( Isaiah 55:8 Isaiah 55:9 , Hebrews 1:1 ). Compare 1 Peter 4:10 , "stewards of the manifold grace of God." Man cannot understand aright its single acts till he can survey them as a connected whole ( 1 Corinthians 13:12 ). The call of the Church is no haphazard remedy, or afterthought, but part of the eternal scheme, which, amidst manifold varieties of dispensation, is one in its end.
11. which he purposed--Greek, "made." ELLICOTT translates, "wrought."
12. Translate, "our boldness and our access ( Ephesians 2:18 ) in confidence through our faith in Him." ALFORD quotes as an instance, Romans 8:38 , &c. "THE access" (Greek) implies the formal introduction into the presence of a monarch.
13. "I entreat you not to be dispirited."
for you--in your behalf.
which is--rather, "which are your glory," namely, inasmuch as showing that God loved you so much, as both to give His Son for you, and to permit His apostles to suffer "tribulations" for you [CHRYSOSTOM] in preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles. for you Gentiles." My tribulations are your spiritual "glory," as your faith is furthered thereby ( 1 Corinthians 4:10 ).
14. For this cause--Resuming the thread of Ephesians 3:1 , "For this cause." Because ye have such a standing in God's Church [ALFORD].
bow my knees--the proper attitude in humble prayer. Posture affects the mind, and is not therefore unimportant. See Paul's practice ( Acts 20:36 ); and that of the Lord Himself on earth ( Luke 22:41 ).
unto the Father--The oldest manuscripts omit "of our Lord Jesus Christ." But Vulgate and some very old authorities retain them: Ephesians 3:15 , "From whom," in either case, refers to "the Father" (Patera), as "family" (patria, akin in sound and etymology) plainly refers to Him. Still the foundation of all sonship is in Jesus Christ.
15. the whole family--ALFORD, MIDDLETON, and others translate, "every family": alluding to the several families in heaven and in earth supposed to exist [THEOPHYLACT, Æcumenius, in SUICER, 2.633], the apostle thus being supposed to imply that God, in His relation of Father to us His adopted children, is the great prototype of the paternal relation wherever found. But the idea that "the holy angels are bound up in spiritual families or compaternities," is nowhere else in Scripture referred to. And Acts 2:36 , where the article is similarly omitted, and yet the translation is, "All the house of Israel," shows that in New Testament Greek the translation is justifiable, "all the family," or "the whole family": which accords with Scripture views, that angels and men, the saints militant and those with God, are one holy family joined under the one Father in Christ, the mediator between heaven and earth ( Ephesians 1:10 , Philippians 2:10 ). Hence angels are termed our "brethren" ( Revelation 19:10 ), and "sons of God" by creation, as we are by adoption ( Job 38:7 ). The Church is part of the grand family, or kingdom, which comprehends, besides men, the higher spiritual world, where the archetype, to the realization of which redeemed man is now tending, is already realized. This universal idea of the "kingdom" of God as one divine community, is presented to us in the Lord's Prayer. By sin men were estranged, not only from God, but from that higher spiritual world in which the kingdom of God is already realized. As Christ when He reconciled men to God, united them to one another in a divine community (joined to Himself, the one Head), breaking down the partition wall between Jew and Gentile ( Ephesians 2:14 ), so also He joins them in communion with all those who have already attained that perfection in the kingdom of God, to which the Church on earth is aspiring ( Colossians 1:20 ) [NEANDER].
is named--derives its origin and its name as sons of God. To be named, and to be, are one with God. To bear God's name is to belong to God as His own peculiar people ( Numbers 6:27 , Isaiah 43:7 , 44:5 , Romans 9:25 Romans 9:26 ).
16. according to--that is in abundance consonant to the riches of His glory; not "according to" the narrowness of our hearts. Colossians 1:11 , "Strengthened with all might according to His glorious power."
by--Greek, "through"; "by means of His Spirit."
in--The Greek implies, "infused into."
the inner man--( Ephesians 4:22 Ephesians 4:24 , 1 Peter 3:4 ); "the hidden man of the heart." Not predicated of unbelievers, whose inward and outward man alike are carnal. But in believers, the "inner (new) man," their true self, stands in contrast to their old man, which is attached to them as a body of death daily being mortified, but not their true self.
17. That--So that.
dwell--abidingly make His abode ( John 14:23 ). Where the Spirit is there Christ is ( John 14:16 John 14:18 ).
by faith--Greek, "through faith," which opens the door of the heart to Jesus ( John 3:20 ). It is not enough that He be on the tongue, or flit through the brain: the heart is His proper seat [CALVIN]. "You being rooted and grounded in love" (compare Ephesians 3:19 ), is in the Greek connected with this clause, not with the clause, "that ye may be able to comprehend." "Rooted" is an image from a tree; "grounded" (Greek, "founder," "having your foundations resting on"), from a building (compare Notes,, Colossians 1:23 , 2:7 ). Contrast Matthew 13:6 Matthew 13:21 . "Love," the first-fruit of the Spirit, flowing from Christ's love realized in the soul, was to be the basis on which should rest their further comprehension of all the vastness of Christ's love.
18. May be able--even still further. Greek, "May be fully able."
breadth . . . length . . . depth . . . height--namely, the full dimensions of the spiritual temple, answering to "the fulness of God" ( Ephesians 3:19 ), to which the Church, according to its capacity, ought to correspond (compare Ephesians 4:10 Ephesians 4:13 ) as to "the fulness of Christ." The "breadth" implies Christ's world-wide love, embracing all men: the "length," its being extended through all ages ( Ephesians 3:21 ); the "depth," its profound wisdom which no creature can fathom ( Romans 11:33 ); the "height," its being beyond the reach of any foe to deprive us of ( Ephesians 4:8 ) [BENGEL]. I prefer to understand "the breadth," &c., to refer to the whole of the vast mystery of free salvation in Christ for all, Gentile and Jew alike, of which Paul had been speaking ( Ephesians 3:3-9 ), and of which he now prays they may have a fuller comprehension. As subsidiary to this, and the most essential part of it, he adds, "and to know the love of Christ" ( Ephesians 3:19 ). GROTIUS understands depth and height of God's goodness raising us from the lowest depression to the greatest height.
19. passeth--surpasseth, exceeds. The paradox "to know . . . which passeth knowledge," implies that when he says "know," he does not mean that we can adequately know; all we know is, that His love exceeds far our knowledge of it, and with even our fresh accessions of knowledge hereafter, will still exceed them. Even as God's power exceeds our thoughts ( Ephesians 3:20 ).
filled with--rather, as Greek, "filled even unto all the fulness of God" (this is the grand goal), that is, filled, each according to your capacity, with the divine wisdom, knowledge, and love; "even as God is full," and as Christ who dwells in your hearts, hath "all the fulness of the Godhead dwelling in Him bodily" ( Colossians 2:9 ).
20. unto him--contrasted with ourselves and our needs. Translate, "that is able above all things (what is above all things) to do exceeding abundantly above what we ask or (even) think": thought takes a wider range than prayers. The word, above, occurs thrice as often in Paul's writings, as in all the rest of the New Testament, showing the warm exuberance of Paul's spirit.
according to the power--the indwelling Spirit ( Romans 8:26 ). He appeals to their and his experience.
21. Translate, "Unto Him be the glory (that is, the whole glory of the gracious dispensation of salvation just spoken of) in the Church (as the theater for the manifestation of the glory, Ephesians 3:10 ) in Christ Jesus (as in Him all the glory centers, Zechariah 6:13 ) to all the generations of eternal ages," literally, "of the age of the ages." Eternity is conceived as consisting of "ages" (these again consisting of "generations") endlessly succeeding one another.


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Hello, I'm a new miniatures gamer and really loving the look and idea of Anima. I'm trying to find someone in the Minnesota area (more specifically the Twin Cities area) who would be willing to take me in and help me learn how to play the game. I have done some Warhammer Fantasy, though this game stands out as something that I would be even more interested in.
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The Enigmatic Ball Python Appetite
The Enigmatic Ball Python Appetite
Even before the designer morph craze, ball pythons were a very popular choice when selecting a pet snake. Many people will agree that, across the years, the two most popular snakes to choose as pets have been ball pythons and corn snakes. Their relatively small size and generally casual demeanor make them great choices for people who love snakes but aren't down with wondering if they are about to get chewed on every time they open the enclosure. When coupled with the staggering number of color and pattern variations (from both species) it's easy to see why they are eternal staples of the reptile world. But despite all of the wonderful qualities that make ball pythons a great choice there is one quality that keepers will inevitably lament: the ball python appetite. The feeding response of ball pythons can be nothing short of a mystifying source of frustration.
Else the Vector is Zero
The ball python business, like all businesses, is evolving. I have seen a lot of changes and, through them all, I have endeavored to remain optimistic. That optimism has proved legitimate as the industry continues to be very good to me. Despite my love of the hobby (business) I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses; I regularly contemplate the negative aspects of being a reptile breeder and attempt to make sure I am doing what I can to mitigate them.
On a seemingly different note,
The Conundrum of Laissez-Faire Herpetoculture
Later this year someone is going to break into your house while you are sleeping. They are there to take things that do not belong to them; things you worked for, things you earned. Awakened by the noise they are making you confront them and are stunned to find that the thief is someone you had thought to be a friend. You toss him a loaded gun and scream, "Please don't shoot me!" A few minutes later, as you lie bleeding on the floor, your precious possessions gone, you cry out, "I was always so nice to him. I can't believe he shot me." For reasons unknown it never computes that you put the gun in the thief's hand. It was you that armed him with the weapon he used to wound you. Who did you vote for in the last congressional election? How about the last presidential election?
Nobody Likes You Because You're a Dragon
I recently read my daughter a bedtime story (for the 987th time) which centered on a young dragon taken in by Princess Aurora (of Sleeping Beauty fame). Starting with her husband, Prince Phillip, and continuing with each encounter with the story's other characters Aurora is met with storybook disdain for her new pet. The universal reason: dragons are dangerous. The dragon, in an effort to fit in, tries to emulate other animals who do not suffer the same unearned contempt. But dragons are what dragons are and each attempt to be something he is not leads to moments of chaos involving, as you might guess, fire. It's not until the end of the story that the dragon comes to terms with what he is and finds a place in the life of the story.
None of the characters in the story offered anecdotal evidence as to why dragons are dangerous; they just knew them to be so.
Practical Principles for Ball Python Breeders
As a ball python breeder I constantly evaluate the best ways to get a maximum return on my investment. This makes me no different than any other business person, regardless of the choice of profession. I endeavor to be pragmatic when it comes to expected profitability and I have come to believe that there many ways to do this snake breeding thing right. Alternately, there at least as many ways to do it wrong. What's right and what's wrong can vary based on circumstance and is often a matter of perspective. If the end result is little more than baby snakes poking their heads out of eggs then I know I am right to say that what's right and what's wrong is chock full of opinion and personal preference. I know this because I have seen too many people be successful using too many variations of what I consider "right". Right, in this instance, is grey.
Let the UK Be a Lesson
As an American I am chronically aware that many of my fellow citizens don't pay much attention to what is going on in other countries. By no means is that an across-the-board statement; it's just something I have made note of in my interactions with others as I travel about the country. It's not unusual for Americans to be so unabashedly and ignorantly ethnocentric that they don't have the slightest idea of what is going in the rest of the world. Who am I kidding? Many don't even know what is going on in this country. Jay Leno is good at pointing this out from time-to-time in his late night talk show antics (and here). Most Americans know that something is going in in Iraq but many don't realize that Iran is different than Iraq and they certainly don't know why Israel is so despised by them. Most of us know that Princess Diana died a while back
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Royal Envoy 2
The King turns once more to you, his trusted city planner, to save the faraway land of Middleshire in Royal Envoy 2! . Explore ancient caves and forgotten mines, meet mystical nymphs and leprechauns, engage in snowball fights in the frigid arctic, and rescue the people of Middleshire from the fires of a terrible volcano. With you as their guide, the people will build a veritable paradise -- while you win prizes for your speed and quick wit in this incredible Time Management game!
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- Hard Drive: 350 MB
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Czech Republic
Book Czech Republic flights to capital city Prague, a World Heritage Site picturesquely located on the Vltava (Moldau) River. Fill a Czech Republic holiday with a stroll around the Old Town Square and a walk across Charles Bridge. Czech Republic flights take culture enthusiasts to the National Gallery and Franz Kafka Museum. Art lovers on Czech Republic city breaks call into the Art Nouveau Mucha Museum. To escape the city, take a Czech Republic flight and head for the spa town of Karlovy Vary or south Bohemia's Šumava Mountains. A Czech Republic ticket opens up a world of UNESCO Heritage Sites like Litomyšl Castle and the medieval town ofČeský Krumlov.
Sample svickova, beef tenderloin and sour cream with potatoes, cranberry sauce and klobásníky (sausage in beer dough) from Karviná. Warm up with polevka (soup) or a bramborak (potato pancake with garlic and herbs). Wash it all down with Pilsner beer, Budweiser Budvar or North Moravia's famed slivovice (plum brandy). KLM and partners have frequent flights to the Czech Republic. Buy a Czech Republic ticket and catch Prague's Spring International Music Festival, July's Zahrada folklore festival near Olomouc in Moravia and September's International Music Festival and Mozart Festival, both in Prague.


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French Terry Wide-Leg Pants - Petite Sizes: Comfortable fabric, a flattering fit and an unbeatable price make our French terry pants the hands-down favorite in our leisure collection!
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Margie Plus: Leopard for Winter
Leopard always seems to find its way back into my wardrobe. I am channeling my inner feline this season, and leopard print can be dressed up or down and, in this cold weather, is great for layering. Plus size brands have been offering animal-spotted items that aren't just wearable, but sophisticated too. Torrid, for instance, is offering an amazing vintage-inspired leopard dress that hugs your curves in all the right places. Besides the button-down number I'm wearing in my picture, my favorite leopard pieces in my wardrobe right now are my leopard blazer and jazz shorts (which can both be "winterized!").
I always think a great way to reinvent your style is to mix your leopard pieces with other bold prints. Wearing a leopard top? Why not add a pair of leopard flats or a leopard purse to double up on the pattern. Here, I have made the look a little masculine by pairing my animal print top with a pair of trouser pants and oxfords. Tip: For a fun look, try mixing your leopard piece with an on-trend color like a bold red or jewel tone.
Click through to see me favorite plus size leopard options for winter, all of which are available now!
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MERRELL Men's Mix Master Tuff Trail Running Shoes
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Steel Pin Backsby Darice
These durable Pin Backs are constructed from plated steel. They measure 1 in. long x 3/8 in. wide and come in a variety of colors.
Also available, is a pack of 1 in. steel bar nickel plated pin backs with adhesive backs.
Ask a question about Steel Pin Backs Ask a question about this product Average User Rating: Based on (2 Reviews) Holly J K. from madgalena, NM says: You get what you pay for...they are affordable, but not sturdy. Okay for craft projects, but not for professional. Please wait...
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