text: Monday 25th September, 2000 THE HOUSE met at 10.00 o'clock a.m. (THE CHAIRMAN in the Chair) PRAYERS **** QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER MAITANANCE OF BOBIRWA-TOBANE-PHIKWE ROAD KGOSI M. KGWATALALA: asked the Minister of Local Government when the Bononong-Tobane - Phikwe road would be maintained and further state whether he would consider erecting a bridge and culverts along the road. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (DR NASHA): Mr Chairman, the Tobane-Phikwe (Section 22 km) of the road in question was gravelled in 1998. In the 1999-2000 Financial Year, the same section of the road was spot-improved. In February 2000, the entire Bobonong-Tobane-Phikwe road (66 km) was graded. It will be due for the planned cyclic maintenance at around June 2001. The Central District Council plans to construct one drift on the Bobonong-Tobane section of the road during the current Financial Year. Currently there are no plans to construct a bridge or culverts on this road. Thank you Sir. COMPESATING BEREAVED FAMILIES KGOSI R. BANIKA: asked the Minister of Commerce and Industry whether she would consider compensating the bereaved families of people killed by wild animals. MINISTER OF COMMERCE AND INDUSTRY (MRS SERETSE): Mr Chairman, a motion similar to this question was raised in this House three years ago by Kgosi O. R. N. Kalaben. The explanations advanced then are still relevant today. Mr Chairman, the 1992 Wildlife Conservation and National Parks Act of 1992 excludes compensation for loss of human life and injury as did the previous Fauna Conservation Act of 1961. This is not to suggest that people do not get killed on injured by wild animals occasionally. The Fauna Conservation Act of 1961 recognised the right to kill wildlife in defence of human life, and so does the Wildlife Conservation and National Parks Act of 1992. During consideration of the Wildlife Conservation and National Parks Act in 1992 the issue of the payment of compensation for loss of life or for injury to humans was raised. It was explained that there are factors that mitigate against the inclusion of such a provision in the Act. Firstly, unlike crops or property, it is reasonable to assume that human beings are normally capable of taking evasive action. Indeed experience indicates that loss of life or injury usually arises when wild animals have previously been wounded. Unlike the Motor Vehicle Assurance (MVA) fund, a levy to compensate for loss of life given an accident is paid by all motorists when purchasing fuel. Regrettably there is no equivalent provision in the case of wildlife. Furthermore, the standard of proof given wildlife attacks is extremely difficult on account of the one-sided submission by the victim and/or his or her representatives. In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I would like to state that my Ministry does not, therefore, have any intention to compensate the bereaved families of people killed by wildlife. Thank you. KGOSI BANIKA: I am not satisfied with the answer because it is the animals which come to the village, but to say they kill people because they have injured them is not true. Current statistics of people killed by animals in the Chobe area indicates that none of such animals have been found with injuries, they just kill without being provoked. MR CHAIRMAN: Can you put that in the form of a question not a statement. KGOSI BANIKA: Let me leave it like that. CATTLE HIT BY TRAIN ALONG VAKARANGA--RAMATLABAMA KGOSI T. B. JACKALAS: asked the Minister of Works, Transport and Communications whether he is aware that cattle are ever hit by train along the Vakaranga-Ramatlabama railway line, if so; the Minister should state the last time the fence was maintained to effectively control livestock movement. MINISTER OF WORKS, TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MR MAGANG): Mr Chairman I am aware that sometimes cattle are killed by the train. This is because during the previous drought periods, the Railway reserve had vegetation and in particular grass that attracted animals because anywhere else there was no grazing. This therefore resulted in cattle breaking in the Railway reserve fence to have access to relatively better grazing within the Railway reserve. Moreover, farmers who broke the Railway reserve fence deliberately for their cattle to have access exacerbated the problem. Over and above this, the ever-increasing vandalism and inevitable wear and tear of the fence contribute to an already bad situation, consequential to which animals get killed by the train. Mr Chairman, barring the above situation, maintenance of the Railways reserve fence is an on-going exercise. Botswana Railways has, however, been appealing to the District Councils to assist in facilitating an arrangement which will involve the farmers themselves maintaining the fence. With this arrangement Botswana Railways will buy the fencing material and hand over to the local area farmers for erection and maintenance of that particular fence. Following our appeal to the District Council authorities, some two years ago because this question was asked again, some of the councils have taken this proposal on board. Under this arrangement fencing material have already been provided to farmers in areas between Lobatse, Ramatlabama, Ramotswa and between Vakaranga and Tati Siding where, in fact the farmers in these areas have already erected the fence. We are now in the process of extending this arrangement to some farmers along the Sua Pan line and it is Botswana Railways" intention to continue this process until the rail network is covered. I believe that in this way, the incidence of vandalism will be reduced thereby increasing benefits to both Botswana Railways and the farmers. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI LINCHWE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Really, we feel the fence for the railway lines are not fully maintained. We would like to appeal to you, like you have indicated, that you should emphasise that they really see to it that the fence is maintained because it is not only around Vakaranga and Lobatse, even throughout, these fences have fallen down and we do not know what really is taking place. People feel that before we took up the control of the railway line things were well controlled and we do not know what is happening. I am glad that my colleague asked this question and you made an assurance in the House. MR CHAIRMAN: Just a reminder Honourable Members, or perhaps it is a result being too long without meeting, that after a response to the question, what follows should be a supplementary question not a statement. COMMISSION TO STANDARDISE SIZE OF LOCAL DISTRICTS COUNTRY WIDE KGOSI BESELE II MONTSHIOA: asked the Minister of Local Government whether she does not find it necessary to appoint a commission to standardise the size of local districts countrywide, the Minister should also state when he would upgrade Borolong Sub-district into a fully fledged district. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (DR NASHA): Mr Chairman, my Ministry does not consider it necessary to appoint a commission to standardise the sizes of local districts throughout the country. And Mr Chairman I want to emphasise that the important word there is standardisation. It has 2 to be noted that several historical and cultural factors, settlement patterns and their resultant spatial coverage, geographic and demographic characteristics, etc. have influenced the shapes and sizes of our local districts boundaries to the extent that some are relatively big while others are small. I however, wish to acknowledge that some districts are too big and it may be a point for future consideration to have some of such districts delineated to a size that is manageable. Should Southern District fall under that category, due consideration may be given. Thank you. INTRODUCTION OF STRINGENT PENALITIES AGAINST HEAVY COMMERCIAL AND PUBLIC SERVICE VEHICLES KGOSI O. R. KALABEN: asked the Minister of Works, Transport and Communications whether in view of the high rate of road accidents and resultant carnage in the country, he would consider introducing stringent penalties against heavy commercial vehicles and public service vehicle drivers who continue to exceed the prescribed speed limit of 80 km/h. MINISTER OF WORKS, TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MR MAGANG): Mr Chairman, let me right from the onset express my deep gratitude to this House for the keen interest and concern you continue to show in the ever-growing problem of road accidents and the resultant carnage in our country. This has to be, because historically you have always been the custodians of the safety, security and welfare of our respective communities. Inevitably, transportation safety has to be seen and justified as a means of affecting the quality of life of citizens which has worth over and above any other consideration. I cannot agree with you more and with your proposal to make penalties against public service passenger and goods vehicle drivers more stringent to deter them from disregarding traffic laws, especially the prescribed speed limits. It will be recalled Mr Chairman that in 1993 I caused the amendment of Sections 48 and 50 of the Road Traffic Act in line with your proposal. In terms of amendment of Section 48 a person who drives recklessly or at speed or in a manner which is dangerous to other persons or the users of the roads shall be sentenced to a fine of not less than P500.00 or more than P5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term of not less than 6 months or more than 5 years, or both. In the case of a public service vehicle driver the sentence for the same offence is double the fine and double the time of imprisonment. This means that a public service vehicle driver can be fined up to P10,000.00 for reckless driving. Section 50 was amended such that a public service vehicle driver who drives a vehicle without due care and attention is liable to be fined not less than P1,000.00 or more than P5,000.00 or to imprisonment of 12 months or more than 5 years or both. The maximum fine and term of imprisonment for the same offence in respect of ordinary drivers of cars races are P500.00 and six months, respectively. In other words we pay more emphasis on bigger vehicles such as buses and these horse coach vehicle. My Ministry will be embarking on a comprehensive review of the Road Traffic Act as a whole commencing November this year. The objective of the review is to tighten and enhance enforcement of the traffic law and therefore facilitate the combating of road accidents and insecurity of our roads. In the meantime, my Ministry proposes to undertake the number of measures to deal with livestock menace because some of the accidents really are caused by our own cattle. These include fencing of all public roads where environmentally feasible because sometime we abide from fencing some roads, not only due to lack of funds but because environmentalists say that we should not fence particular areas and we introduce continuous patrolling of major highways the intention being again to introduce new policies of auctioning of impounded livestock. Introducing stringent penalties for allowing livestock to stray on to the roads, organising intensive public awareness campaigns/debates etc. Considering the sensitivity of this matter, I recently wrote to all Members of Parliament to assist me in publicising on the measures that Government intends to take, soliciting public views, comments 3 therefore, really to the best of our intention to consult the general public on this problem because a lot of people die on the roads because there are donkeys, there are cattle on the roads, sometimes during the drought, people simply open the gates or break the fence so that their cattle can graze on our roads. And the reason for doing this is in order to decide as a nation whether it is the life of the cattle or the life of people that we must take care of. My colleague the Minister of Public Service and Presidential Affairs is also doing his utmost to ensure that the Police are empowered and researched enough to increase their availability and visibility throughout the country at all times. Because without effective enforcement the law-making process would simply become an exercise in futility. In other words we can amend as many laws as we want, but if our law enforcement power is limited because there are no police, then any increase in penalties will come to naught. Thank you. KGOSI SEBELE I: Mr Chairman, I would like to request the minister to look at these three issues, and examine what he can do about them. The first point is that public transport as in buses and mini buses are obliged to observe a speed limit of 80K/H on the roads, however, this does not happen. It is even worse in Francistown/Gaborone road as one would normally shudder to find a bus moving at a high speed and overtaking a private car. The minister should ensure that the traffic police take note of this problem. To set up a speed trap alone cannot solve this problem because if their speed is within 120, it means they are right, though their vehicles bare an 80k/h sign at the back. The second issue that I request the Honourable minister to look at is the issue of government motor vehicle scheme for public officers. One would find that, these people take a short time as learner drivers after which they acquire their driver"s license without having acquired sufficient driving experience. For as long as they qualify to be guaranteed a motor vehicle loan they would rush to purchase a motor vehicle. Some times we are not even sure if the license was obtained in a procedural manner. I think this is what presupposes us as danger, and I wonder if the Minister can examine ways of controlling the problem. The third one Mr Chairman relates to our dual roads more especially in our big cities and towns. There is this issue of Keep Left, Pass Right. Drivers do not observe this rule, yet the traffic police are there. I request the minister to look at this issue. It is so disturbing to find a slowly moving vehicle moving at the right rather than keeping left. This result in causing a long queue of vehicles thereby delaying traffic flow and those in a hurry. Therefore the minister should request the traffic police to implement the law in so far as this problem is concerned. The last matter Mr Chairman relates to those big tipper trucks which leak concrete particles more especially at the back, they would then send these particles in the air as some of these vehicles do not have mark up flags. We have talked so long about this issue, but the situation is not improving. These small stones crack the windscreens of people"s vehicles, and the windscreen does not look good at all for the beautiful car. Sometimes you find that people do not have money to repair or even replace the windscreens. Therefore, I ask the minister to look into these issues. I thank you Mr Chairman. MR MAGANG: Let me respond to those issues raised. I start with the first one relating to the speed limit for public transport. The law concurs with your argument and requires that such drivers should be apprehended, brought to book and charged accordingly. However, we have a problem of shortage of manpower in so far as the police are concerned. The issue dictate for road patrols by the police, but we are limited by this problem of insufficient work force. In other countries they have adequate manpower, and they normally use motor bikes to speed ahead and try to solve such problems. They are mostly there and this deters people from breaking the law. However, here, people are aware of this problem of manpower shortage, and can afford to break the law. Even where a speed trap has been set up, after passing the point, the driver would increase the speed confident that he would not meet another police officer or come across another speed trap. Therefore, our problem as already stated is manpower shortage. I hope my colleague, the Minister of Presidential 4 Affairs and Public Administration would try to recruit more officers. However, I am aware that we have this financial constraint to be enable us to recruit sufficient numbers of police officers. On the issue of public officers purchasing vehicles without much driving experience, a human being is a very difficult animal to understand. However, the law is clear on how long to take in training before one can be a qualified driver and acquire a driver"s license. Right now we have introduced a requirement that nobody should get a license prior to setting for an examination, and under going a comprehensive road test. All these procedures are followed. However, you are aware that sometimes we have cases of people by passing the law and illegally obtaining the licenses, sometimes by way of bribing the transport officials to speed up the process or sometimes being done a favour by their friends. Just recently, I was officially launching a course for driving school instructors. This means that no one will be qualified to get a license unless if he/she has gone through such schools. No one would learn at home, either being taught by his cousin or even uncle. People should go to official driving schools which have all the resources in place that are necessary for conducive learning. i.e. maps, books as well the necessary expertise and commitment on the part of the instructors. Just recently, the Department of transport had been doing the rounds sensitising and informing driving schools that, they will only qualify to operate only if they have gone through the instructors course. In relation to public service vehicles, one condition of acquiring driver"s license for such is to be over 21 years of age, has to have the driving experience as well as a minimum 2 years valid driver"s license. That is only when one can qualify to be tested for the license to drive public transport transporting passengers. On the issue of "keep left, pass right", I take that the matter could be attributed to lack of understanding or ignorance as other people come from the rural areas where there are no dual roads. I know that in Molepolole there are no "keep left pass right" sign posts it is only here in Gaborone and where there are dual roads. In any case we will try to remind the police to assist the people to better use such roads. I believe the other reason why we encounter such problems is because we have too many vehicles, that is why we have this pass right keep left sign. But some drivers choose to drive slowly on the left and the one driving on the right would drive slowly thereby blocking the smooth flow of traffic. The one who will be driving slowly at the right will be the one who is at fault. Since the minimum speed limit for the one driving on the left is suppose to be 60 km/h if he drives below that it means he is at fault as well. We will make sure that the traffic cops make the community aware so that they uphold the law in dual carriage way. Regarding the windscreens broken by gravel transported in trucks you once tabled a motion in this House about this issue as to whether the driver is to be charged for this or not. There is a section of the law in which he can be charged to pay for the windscreen. It is difficult to charge a driver if these stones are thrown by moving vehicles on a tarred road and then eventually hit windscreens. If the road is gravelled, signs are put up for these cars to slow down and probably to a certain maximum speed, in that case there is no way the windscreen can be broken. What is needed is law enforcement and public education, that those who use these roads should know that there are other drivers who use these roads as well. MR CHAIRMAN: If I were to ask Honourable Minister, there was once a motion tabled in which we requested Government to refrain from using trucks in transporting school children, they should not be transported in open trucks. Has there been any thought of policy to tackle this issue? MR MAGANG: Mr Chairman, if there had been any transport system, there could be a policy that no one should be transported in an open truck since even Insurance Companies do not cover accidents victims who were transported in this manner, it is usually by sheer luck that they are transported safely - usually we take risk with the hope that the driver will be extra careful. Children are suppose to be 5 transported in vehicles that are covered at the back or by buses. I do not want to commit myself that there is no government policy on this issue. As I said it is just through chance and risks that school children are transported this way. Let me not confine myself to the school children in particular since the Minister of Education can address this issue. KGOSI KALABEN: Thank you, Honourable Minister for your most elaborate and detailed response to the question. Thank you. PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR TEA INORDINATE DELAYS AND INCONVINIENCES FROM REFERRALS KGOSI O.R. KALABEN: asked the Minister of Commerce and Industry whether in view of the public being subjected to inordinate delays and inconveniences emanating from referral of licence applications from Sub-Licensing Boards to the Main Licensing Board for final approval, she would state which Sub- District Councils have been conferred licensing autonomy in terms of Section 5(a) of the Trade and Liquor Act taking into account the enabling legislation promulgated in 1993. MINISTER OF COMMERCE AND INDUSTRY (MRS SERETSE): Mr Chairman, the Trade and Liquor Act as amended in 1993, provides for further decentralisation of licensing activities to Sub Districts in order to avoid delays in processing applications, as such there is no need for Sub Districts Licensing Authorities to refer applications to the main Districts. However, my Ministry having realised in 1998, that some Sub Districts still referred applications to their main Districts wrote to all District Councils to remind them that Licensing Authorities in the Sub District have powers to make decisions on applications without referring to the District Headquarters for a final decision. Mr Chairman, having informed the Districts on this, I am pleased to note that Districts which have Sub- Districts have now decentralised licensing activities to allow the Sub-Districts Licensing Authorities to finalise decisions on licence applications. I thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, I am totally dissatisfied with the answer tendered by the Minister. I will ask him later, but I want to enlighten him on what I am talking about. The law provides that the Minister will determine which sub-districts are the Sub-Licensing Authorities and it has been an issue of a cat and dog here in this Honourable House. Every time when we refer to this issue the question will be marshalled in a different way. Kgosi Besele the other time asked this question differently. I came here and passed a motion since Kgosi Besele was not adequately answered and the answer given was that we as the Ministry, we are going to arrange and we are going to make a notice because here Honourable Minister if I may refer you to the answer which was given by your predecessor, it said "Mr Chairman, I amended the Trade and Liquor Act in 1993 to provide for decentralisation of licensing to all Districts and Sub-Districts. I realised however that due to manpower constraints and lack of financial resource not all Districts were in position to implement the policy objective immediately. Southern District Council informs me that plans to decentralise the Liquor Licensing to places such as Good Hope, Mabutsane are already under way and Commercial Affairs officers have already been appointed to these areas whose initial functions would be to process renewal of licences and collect fees from traders and hawkers." I want to know whether the Minister is aware, because the law itself indicates that the Minister must determine which districts he is giving autonomy to issue licences, not writing letters, it can be by means of having talked with the District Councils formally, notifying in the Government Gazette that these are areas of Council which I as Minister have determined as Licensing Authority in their own right." It is only that three weeks ago, I was at Palapye, they deferred the applications saying they do not have power to issue licences unless they referred the licences to the Central District Council. It happens, but until such time that the Minister determines and says, "I have made a determination" not of your officials writing letters but making a determination in terms of the law, appointing those people. This is 6 what is going to happen. Honourable Minister, please take not of what the law says and not what your officers say because every time these problems crop up. People are suffering because they have got to travel all the way to Letlhakane only to be told that they will not be issued with licences. As a business consultant I have had to endure all this problem. Honourable Minister can you come to my rescue. Go and get the Government Gazette Attorney General to issue a government notice and notify all those Councils. Now I am being reminded that I am not talking as a business consultant and I am talking as a Kgosi here, representing people. Kgosi Besele once mentioned this issue without any conclusion. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MRS SERETSE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I do share the sentiment as expressed by the Honourable Member. However, I think we need to separate two issues. The law is there, the interpretation of the law is another issue. When the Act was amended and I am sure my predecessors were also concerned with the issues as raised now, a letter was written to the Attorney General for his opinion in terms of interpreting the law as it stood or as amended and the interpretation which came back from Attorney General was that the law as it stands it authorises and it empowers this Sub District to issue licences and make final determination about them. Now, it is like in any other instance Honourable Member where people do not want to change or where people find it comfortable to pass the bark. So because previously it had been the case that the Sub Districts then referred the applications to the main Districts they have continued to do that some of them. Some of them are complying after the receipt of the letters that were written by the Ministry stating to them that all the District Councils which have the Sub Districts have authority now as per the amendment to issue licences. So, a question of lack of compliance cannot be determined by amendment of the law because what would we be amending the law to say after the law has been interpreted and after the Ministry has written to them and say you do have powers, I think, Mr Chairman, that the thing which could make it easier is if Kgosi was to say so and so was denied a licence or, they said that so and so"s application has been referred. Then, we will be dealing with a specific case, not with generalisations because in terms of generalisations Mr Chairman, the law is clear, interpretation has been sought, it has been given and we have confirmed it to all the district councils. If they decide to implement it otherwise, then I think the problem is within the council itself and not the law. Thank you. MR KALABEN: Mr Chairman, I do not want to be seen to be arguing with the Minister on the question of the interpretation. I would like to ask if the Minister is aware of this, because I do not know if she is looking at the Section I am referring to, it says "There shall be local licensing authority for the area of each council. Each town council, each township authority established under the Townships Act and such local licensing authorities for such areas of each district as the Minister may in her discretion determine." Apparently, the Minister has not yet determined. The law says "in her discretion determine." This is what I am arguing about Mr Chairman and I think the councils who do not receive those letters say there has not been a determination by the Minister, the letters just say, the law has been amended, comply. Before these people can comply, there has to be a determination put before them by the Minister, because he in accordance with the law has determined that this council becomes autonomous, instead of making an excerpt of the law and say, there is the amended one, it has been said that the Minister may determine. The Minister has still to determine and it is only when the Minister has determined and can say, the Chobe or Letlhakane districts fall under this. If I was the Minister, I would have determined that it would be autonomous. But the Minister has not done that. MR CHAIRMAN: In her discretion. MR KALABEN: Yes, in her discretion, in terms of the law. Maybe it is possible, I remember one time when we were talking about some amendment of the Liquor Act, the Minister just gave an answer using the law that had not been amended. Maybe she did not receive the amended one, but anyway I do not want to argue with the Minister and the Attorney General regarding their interpretation, but with due 7 respect, the determination has to precede that kind of thing, these people exercising an autonomous power of issuing licences without reference to the Central District Council or any other council. MR CHAIRMAN: That was to register your concern.... MR KALABEN: That is to register my concern Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN. That you are not happy with the answer because the Minister has not used her discretion. MR KALABEN: Yes Mr Chairman, I am not happy. MRS SERETSE: Thank you Mr Chairman. There is nowhere in the law, Mr Chairman, where it says that after that determination, you shall publish it in the Gazette. If a letter is written to say you have powers to do this, that should be taken to be a determination. I stand here Mr Chairman because after this question had been asked, I got my officers to find out from the councils which have sub-districts, who was not complying to this. It turned out that it was only the Central District Council and we asked them why they were not doing that. According to the information that I got, of all the councils that have sub-districts, it is only the Central District Council that has not complied and they have been instructed accordingly to say that they should make sure that they comply as was instructed before. The Honourable Member is saying that when you determine, you must determine and then from there you must publish in the Gazette. That is not the requirement of the law, it says you must determine. We asked for the interpretation in order to determine. We were given the interpretation that we were satisfied with, we then wrote accordingly in determining that these are the powers that you have. It is not crucial that you must say the law would only apply if you are determining individually, it does not say you cannot determine in a class and we have determined in a class to say that all the sub-districts are so entitled. So, if they do not apply it, then complaints should be made specific because I do not have any intentions Mr Chairman, with due respect, to make further determination because I have already determined and I am satisfied with that determination. Thank you. STRENGTHENING THE AUTONOMY OF THE COUNCILS MOTION KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, I stand to move the motion which reads, "That this Honourable House requests Government to strengthen the autonomy of the councils to allow some/certain fees and payments collected in the respective councils representing revenue accruing to Government to accrue to such councils." Mr Chairman, you will realise that there are so many laws which were made before independence. People like the District Commissioners who are placed in the rural areas, have been given the powers which are still there, to perform certain statutory duties. But whilst in performing those duties, he is charged a lot of money, and as a result he ends up at the government reserves. These days District Commissioners are marriage officers, and they are not the only ones. There are some people like Priests in the rural areas are also marriage officers. When they pay the special licence fee, it is for an occassion which took place in Mochudi or Kanye, the money then goes straight into the government reserves. In terms of the Control of Livestock Act, the District Commissioner has been bestowed with the powers to issue licences of stock buyer"s licences, and any other which is related to stock buying, and which the Dikgosi have that right. Before the District Commissioner can issue such a licence, he must have gone through certain formalities made by Kgosi in that district. All the money collected goes to the Central Government reserves. Mr Chairman, I know that I have talked about this one before, but it seemed as if there was a differing interpretation, that in other rural areas there is an arrangement to have minerals, even if the minerals are only in the form of diamonds, but in terms of the Minerals Act, just to quarry is called mining. Certain levies have to be paid to the Central Government in as much as diamonds. Central Government takes 8 royalties from the people who mine diamonds. In terms of the District Councils Act, if you may allow me Mr Chairman to refer to it, Section 42 says "The revenues of the councils shall consist of local government taxes, rates, rents from property, all monies derived from licences or permits issued by the council." As my uncle and I were saying about licences, and he could be of great help. She wavered certain licences to be administered by the councils. So, the money accruing from the licence fees directly goes to the council issuing the licences. (f) states that, "Such royalties as may by law be payable to or receivable by the council." My interpretation of this is that royalties which are from mining. The same applies to the council, in terms of the law, it has been given the permission seek from royalties accruing from mining as far as I am concerned. Mr Chairman, to substantiate that point in terms of the Constitution, when the Constitution was made, it expected to have this kind of arrangement. It states this about the protection of property, that if property was taken from someone, there must be compensation. The relevant section, which is Section 8 of the Constitution says "No property of any description shall be compulsorily taken possession of, and no interest in or right over property of any description shall be compulsorily acquired, except where the following conditions are satisfied, that is to say - " And the relevant sub-section says sub-section 1(b) (i) of this section shall not be deemed to be satisfied in relation to any law applicable to the taking possession of minerals or acquisition of rights to minerals, if that law makes provision for payment at reasonable intervals of adequate royalties. Now, the Honourable House would be aware that in places where there are minerals and areas such as where my uncles originate from. Government had been given the right to mine diamonds in those areas even in Ngwaketse District people were given the mandate to mine diamonds. Furthermore, the constitution says that those people should be compensated either by the Government or De-beers. This is what the constitution says. This shows that this had not been adhered to. That is why I move in this House, that in terms of these laws, that should be done Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, funds which are accrued from Kgotla fines are deposited with the central government. Funds which are accrued from cases which are conducted by Magistrates are also deposited with the central government. With this one, it is fortunate because the Criminal procedure Act states that a certain percentage of the fines accrued in the district areas should be deposited with Councils. Now the question is, the Council is not aware of this. If there were aware of this arrangement, they would liase with local chiefs to check how much money was collected from fines. There is no communication between Councils, District Commissioners and Magistrates. In certain areas, District Commissioners are marginalised. It is said that they poke their noses into the affairs of Councils. But there is no way the Council can divorce itself from the government. There should be proper consultation and communication between those three bodies. I am happy that the Minister responsible is present in this House. I know there are some issues we are going to disagree on. Mr Chairman, there is an Act which covers funds accrued from licences and permits. If by any chance we agree, the Minister will have to look through all those Acts involved. Thank you. KGOSI SEBELE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I support the motion as presented by Kgosi Kalaben. I wish to thank him for his presentation which I think came at the right time. There are some issues which are overlooked. I do not know if this is because politicians and Government are not aware of this. There are certainly some matters which are ignored and that is why I say this motion came at the right time, so that government should look into these things. There are instances which I can quote with regard to this matter. If I engage Mrs Seretse"s Law Firm (referring to the Acting Minister of Presidential Affairs and Public Administration) to represent me in court, the money which I pay to her Law Firm has to be shared with the central government, or there is a certain percentage which has to go to government coffers. Now, the question is, why can"t the Kweneng District Council also get a share as I the accused or the person who has engaged the Law Firm am from Kweneng District? In the past, when there were these stock sales in the District, revenue 9 collectors were always there to collect moneys accrued from those sales. This is not the case these days. I do not know what happens in other districts. In the Kweneng District this has been cancelled or abolished without any consultation. There are about 100 herd of cattle auctioned every Wednesdays in Molepolole. In Lentsweletau cattle are auctioned every Tuesdays. But there is never a revenue collector to get the moneys or percentage of the money raised from these sales. Just imagine, there are these stock sales permits which are issued using government funds but as I say, the revenue officers are never there. Government never informed us when this arrangement was cancelled. This was a good arrangement anyway because that was away in which Councils could raise their funds. This is the second time we discuss this issue in this House. No one seem to take any action regarding this matter. With those few remarks, I support the motion Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: I do not know if that is the case Mr Kalaben. What I know is that there are always council officers representing council during these sales. But from what I hear, it looks like Councils are unable to manage their own funds each year. MR KALABEN: I also do not know if that responsibility was passed on to Council officers. What I can say is that though Councils do not have good working relationship with Dikgosi, Dikgosi are still their representatives. They should work hand in hand with Dikgosi. This does not mean that they should ask for permission to implement their policies. If funds are available, they should go ahead with their plans. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (DR NASHA) Thank you, M Chairman, as far as I am concerned this matter is not something to argue about. It is well known that it has been the intention of government to decentralise. We are all aware that when it comes to implementation of government policies, it becomes a problem. I think you are all aware that there was a policy paper which was made in 1993. A detailed study followed in 1995. The study amongst other things wanted to find out about the sources of revenue which could be retained by Councils rather than forwarding everything to the Central Government. What we did was to consult with Councils and asked for their ideas because it was not as if government did not want to decentralise. The recommendations made were not acceptable as one of the recommendations was for an individual to pay several tax such income, marriage, local government and housing. This was turned down and were advise to come up with something appropriate and meaningful. But there are other ideas which are keeping and have to retain them. The implementation of this is too cumbersome. It is also not cost effective having P100 worth of petrol and going to collect P50. These things are a bit confusing Mr Chairman. As you were saying Mr Chairman, we are going to differ when we get to diamonds, it is true. If we take the diamond mines in Botswana, it surely would meant that the councils that will benefit will be Jwaneng, not even the Southern District. And then those in the Central District, the Boteti area will benefit. The question then is, how do you then account for equitable distribution of national resources. Jwaneng community will end up wealthy while those at Ghanzi will be suffering. Why don"t we take this revenue and see how we can distribute it. As I said, the councils get a share of the revenue, because we give them 92 per cent of their budget, which means that they are able to cover 8 per cent. It is fair to do the same with all the other areas, but giving those with more needs a larger share. MR CHAIRMAN: Let me say Mr Minister that, Kgosi Kalaben was saying, the law or the constitution says this, when we look at the national distribution inequity of distributing taxes accrued from the diamonds. That is what the law says, however unequal that might turn out to be. The Constitution says .. DR NASHA: Do you have it there Mr Chairman. 10 MR CHAIRMAN: No. DR NASHA: The English used by lawyers is not the same as the one we historians use MR CHAIRMAN: What does it say? DR NASHA: The sub section he was reading says, ..... Is it 31 (b) (i) Kgosi Kalaben? Sub section 3 ..(inaudible). HONOURABLE MEMBER: You must read in conjunction with ..... (inaudible) ..... DR NASHA: Let me start at 81. "No property of any description shall be compulsorily taken possession of and no interest in or right over property of any description shall be compulsorily acquired except where the following conditions are satisfied." Those conditions are many, they go up to the next page. And the little thing that he read was sub-section (b) (i) "Provision is made by a law applicable to that taking of possession or acquisition ....." In other words, before you acquire, there should be a provision, by law. This is provided for in the law. . . HONOURABLE MEMBER: ..... inaudible .... DR NASHA: I am wondering why you are using all sorts of English expressions; what I am saying is, the laws are there. There is the Land Act and the Mining Act for the prompt payment of adequate compensation, am I not right. KGOSI KALABEN: Sub section 1 (a), (d) (i) of this section shall be deemed to be satisfied in relation to any law applicable to taking possession of minerals, or the acquisitions of rights to minerals if the law makes provision for the payment at reasonable intervals of adequate royalties. It does not talk about compensation. It specifically talks about royalties and that is why I was saying, if you read this section in conjunction with the Local Government District Council, the accrual of revenue, manner of making revenue, the council is also mandated to make revenues from royalties, it says so. MR CHAIRMAN: I like the word "adequate". DR NASHA: Let me ask Kgosi. Are we talking about the Councils or an individual? HONOURABLE MEMBER: Councils. DR NASHA: I mean the one that we read in the constitution I think it is talking about individual interests. If your residence is located on a diamond spot, like it happened some time back . . . KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, let me interrupt. Where there are minerals in the tribal land, the tribes only have the right to use the land. But the minerals and what have you, that are underground, accrue to the tribes. We are talking about compensation to the tribe in the tribal area. DR NASHA: Mr Chairman, if you look at the Constitution, right at the beginning, where it says, Chapter 1 and then Chapter 2, you see the heading? Section 8, which we are talking about, falls under Chapter 2 which talks about the protection of fundamental rights and freedoms of the individual. Section 8 talks about protection from deprivation of property. MR CHAIRMAN: Let me help, Kgosi Kalaben. I know in the case of diamonds, the individual is compensated for use of that 8 x 8 surrounding the borehole, therefore that right goes back to the tribe. Then Government buys from the Land Board or whoever. But the individual is given the right of use of the Land. But Kgosi Kalaben says this individual is entitled to adequate compensation, adequate royalty from time to time. 11 DR NASHA: I suggest that the Attorney General be called, because we will soon say things that we will not be able to explain. I only know English and History, but as for other things really I do not want to commit myself. KGOSI KALABEN: ..... (inaudible) ..... of the mineral rights, how are they accrued. I am aware that in so far as the land is concerned, the tribe has the right and when people come to mine minerals, they take the rights from the tribe in terms of the Tribal Land Act. The land belongs to the tribe, despite the fact that an individual owns a plot there. Where the land belongs to the tribe, it is the tribe which must be compensated and who is the representative in so far as the revenue is concerned, is it the tribe or the council? MR CHAIRMAN: It is the Council. KGOSI KALABEN: It is the Council. I am not saying the land is being expropriated from the council. I am merely saying the tribal rights which are administered under the Tribal Land Act and the rights vested in the Land Boards have to ...(inaudible)..., I am not even saying that money should be given to the land board. I am saying it should go to a central place in the district which is the council. The Council is given a mandate in terms of the Act, of collecting revenue and one of them is royalties. DR NASHA: Mr Chairman, I beg to move that the motion be adjourned so that the Attorney General can be called in to help. We should have also brought the Minerals Act, which deals with royalties because they are subsidiary legislation. We might not do justice to it, because the media might also report on such allegations which might not be true. So this is my request Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: I agree with you Honourable Minister. But I do not know whether I do so with the consent of the mover of the motion or .... KGOSI KALABEN: I have some doubts here Mr Chairman, as the mover of the motion, I think the Minister wants to derail us. But it is done in complete good faith though it is making the work of the Councils very difficult. It does not matter whether Government has an idea of equitable distribution of resources or not. The point is that the law is there and this is what it says, like you were quoting the Constitution and the Local Government Act. These things have not been given attention, the constitution has not been applied. This has not been worrying Government at all. MR CHAIRMAN: I have got that particular problem on motions that I bring before this House, that even though these are national resources, but what does the law say. That is what I have always thought. So, I think it would be wise for the Attorney General . . . KGOSI KALABEN: In any case Mr Chairman, if the councils were found to have more funds because of the royalty, obviously government will not subsidise them at the extent of subsidising those with enough funds. It is just natural. It just makes sense that . . . (inaudible)… You have enough funds and you must ensure that you use that money accrued from the mineral rights properly. I do not support the suggestion to call the Attorney General, because they normally come here like they did the other day when we were talking about the appointment of Chiefs, that it is wrong for the Customary Courts Commissioner to be given the powers to give the approval when a Chief is being appointed. We disagreed with the fact that in terms with the Customary Act will give the Minister an idea of whether the incumbent is suitable to preside over cases, which are two distinct laws. We did not accept that, and that he should just go with whatever he had brought with him. He did not interprete the law as it is, and like Mr Chairman was saying, "the law says this". He can come and express his views but we are not entitled to accept that. HONOURABLE MEMBER: .....( inaudible) ..... KGOSI KALABEN: I am refusing, I know that is what they do. 12 MR CHAIRMAN: Let us try and get some order. Let us give him a chance and then we can oppose that if need be. KGOSI KALABEN: Unless Mr Chairman, if you are forcing me to agree to adjourn the motion. MR CHAIRMAN: What would you suggest we do. Should we continue with the motion and finish it, and then disagree with Honourable Minister that the Attorney General be called? KGOSI KALABEN: Whatever happens Mr Chairman, does not matter, whether we pass the motion today, as for the implementation, forget! DR NASHA: Mr Chairman, how can we implement something that we do not know. I am also making this request in good faith so that we understand and appreciate, and I am saying I am not well vested with this law but I am being forced to interprete it. This is a genuine request, so that when we continue we would know what the law says. KGOSI KALABEN: Honourable Minister, that was just one facet of revenue, we just wanted to touch on one of them. DR NASHA: It was an important one. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, we will postpone the debate until tomorrow hopefully we would get an official from Attorney General"s Chambers to come and help us. KGOSI KALABEN: I have agreed Honourable DR Nasha. CUSTOMER RELATIONS TRAINING FOR WILDLIFE OFFICIALS. MOTION KGOSI TAWANA II: I had requested to defer the motion. I will bring it next time as a question. RESPECT FOR DIKGOSI MOTION KGOSI R. BANIKA: My motion reads thus: "That this Honourable House request that Dikgosi be given due respect as community leaders by Government and Non Governmental Organisations" Honourable Members, I bring this motion before you. I do not know, may be I am the only one who has not been comfortable with some of the things that happen, may be you can help me. I have a problem with the present situation where Chiefs are not given the due respect accorded to them. For example I will cite as an example the recent incident of the commission. In my opinion, if the Chiefs were not given the due respect accorded to them, this issue would have been brought to this House. Then the Chiefs would have examined the matter before it was presented to the people who in turn attacked us ravenously. That is why I brought this motion before you Honourable Members. It has become a habit country-wide especially where I come from for Chiefs to be looked down upon where visitors are welcomed by the District Commissioner instead of the Chief. In most cases the Chief would have chance to meet the visitors at the Kgotla sometimes on their departure. You would hear people saying, we had visitors from America, they have been taken to the park and you ask yourself who took them there. These are the things that prompted me to come up with this motion. This is a very unfortunate situation the way our Chiefs are being treated. Unfortunately I forgot to bring vision 2016 with me because it says that Chieftainship should be ameliorated. Now if that is the case, how are we hoping to achieve that with the present situation? Regardless of the fact that a Chief is the overseer in the village, there is no consultation whatsoever and one wonders whether there will be some improvements as far as this sector is concerned. I therefore request that where possible, a law should be legislated to remedy the situation. Our mannerism as 13 Batswana have changed drastically. It is worse with the new generation. When you meet them at the banking places, they won"t feel obliged to give you a way, they will make you stand in the queue the whole day. If say one of them offers you to go in front the rest will rebuke you. All this is as a result of the fact that there is no standard procedure. I made inquiries as to whether there was any standing procedure in place and I was told there is none. When we grew up, we used to respect our elders, one would have thought the same would be extended to our Chiefs but that is not the case today. I would at this juncture thank the Chairman for giving me this opportunity. Thank you. KGOSI RAMOSWAANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I would briefly like to say something in regard to the Honourable Chief"s motion It is evident Mr Chairman that Chiefs are looked down upon. We do not know whether this is as a result of democracy where everyone is free to do as they please. Mr Chairman, Chief Banika has said it all. It is surprising to have visitors at Gantsi without the Chief"s knowledge. Regardless of whether is the President or Minister visiting, you would be notified last minute this is a very regrettable situation Mr Chairman, it belittles the status of our Chiefs in a big way. We are never told these things in time. Like for example, the Balopi Commission we only heard of their tour by the grapevine. During my tour of my region explaining sections, 77, 78, and 79 to the people, the commission got to Charleshill before I completed my tour. It would have been wise if I had known of their visit well in time. Nowadays when you meet people in the street they will start asking each other "who is this one? some will say we do not know maybe its Kgosi Ramaoswaane of Gantsi. They are saying all this in your presence, this is very disrespectful indeed Mr Chairman. In this respect you are left with no choice but to remain silent because if you dare say something they might start pointing fingers at you as if you are not a Motswana. We really do not know what will become of this new generation. Thank you Mr Chairman. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT(DR NASHA) Can I ask a question Mr Chairman? I thought you were consulted regarding the Balopi Commission. MR CHAIRMAN: No, Honourable Minister, infact they asked the Chairman if they could see us and they are meeting us on Thursday. DR NASHA: I do not mean about the Commission, I am referring to this thing even before the commission took off. MINISTER OF COMMERCE (MRS SERETSE): Mr Chairman, through you with all due respect. I did inform the House Sir. KGOSI SEBELE I: Thank you Mr Chairman. I support the motion. But I would be more comfortable with the motion if it incorporated all public figures not specifically Members of the House of Chiefs, then we would be able to contribute effectively. I do not know, whether it would be advisable to defer this motion to a later date. Again our schedule is a bit tight this time. I am afraid it might take time because normally the House sits only for a few days. We might even be told to dismiss tomorrow. On that note I support the motion because moral behaviour determines peace and tranquillity of a nation. Even with the protocol arrangement, it is just confusion. This confusion is not caused by either Government or the council, it is caused by some individuals who deliberately choose not to respect Chiefs. I remember one incident in Molepolole, the State President was scheduled to visit us and I said to myself this time I will just relax and see what will happen. All the time it was intended that my chair should be taken and put far and then it would be said that according to protocol the President, the District Commissioner, Councillors and so on are sat here and the Chiefs sit there. You will find that the President is very far. I have objected to this several times. At one stage, we requested the present District Commissioner, Mr. Maforaga, at Takatokwane to go and talk about protocol at the Kgotla. He said that issue was untouchable. So all along I have been objecting to this issue and I succeeded. 14 Then recently when the State President was in Molepolole, they tried to do the same thing and I decided not to do anything about it. When he arrived he said "where is Kgosi, he is supposed to sit next to me." Then my chair was taken to be placed next to the President This lack of respect results from the apparent belief that we Chiefs are ignorant. Another way of disrespect, somebody would just come and make conclusions that you are ignorant. These are things that cause concern. This conduct is sometimes found in someone who does not care about others. This is why I say probably if we could have modified it in a way, it could be better. Another thing, as Chiefs when we try to maintain law and order as provided for by the Chieftainship Act under Section 17, rebuking and perhaps issuing an instruction somebody tells you that, that is not the way things are done, sometimes it is just a police officer who is your subordinate. The law says it is the Chief"s right to take action when he sees something out of order in his area, someone just tells you that he is refusing. Sometimes in a criminal case you sentence someone to be flogged with the explanation that corporal punishment is the penalty for that offence and then somebody says no, we do not flog, why do you not tell the Botswana Police officer who brought the case to flog? You may find a superior supporting this kind of conduct saying those people are right. This is despite the fact that there is legislation which explains how things are. We have got such cases. These things are a concern. Sometimes as adults and leaders we tarnish our own respect. As you sometimes fail to welcome the President or a Minister you find him already seated after you have been looked for. That is why, I am saying, Mr. Chairman, that if this motion had been put in a broad way, we were going to discuss it. Even as Chiefs we do not respect ourselves in many ways, so people take advantage and oppress us not according us due respect. At times when you are supposed to look presentable as a Chief when visitors come, you go and put on a clean shirt, put on a tie and then you put on a dirty shirt over it saying you are protecting it. That is what is happening. Now, when you are like that as a chief, what are you teaching those who should respect you? Really, this issue was supposed to be seriously discussed so that respect should given duly. There is a problem of equating a Chief and a Parliamentarian, or a Chief and a Councillor. These things happen. At times you will find some civil servants who say okay, I work at the council, so I am supposed to respect the councillor more than the Chief or the headman because I am not working at the Tribal Administration. Another one might say I work at the Tribal Administration, so I am going to respect the Chief more than the Councillor. All these have to do with respect. Sometimes as Chiefs and Councillors we do not respect one another. I take it that I am superior to a Councillor or the Councillor thinks he is superior to me, or I am superior to the Member of Parliament, or the Member of Parliament thinks vice-versa. These things create problems because I take it that if Mr. Daniel Kwelagobe is asked who his paramount Chief is, he will say he is Kgosikwena. The same thing would apply to me, if I am asked who my Member of Parliament is I will say he is Honourable Kwelagobe. Is my Councillor Mr Samuel Sefako? the same thing will apply. Now these things are being used and are causing friction. These things utterly tarnish our respect. This is quite a major motion which is relevant to this House, talking about respect talks about honour. My contribution is a lamentation that if it was not because if time, this motion could be saying, respect for leaders. At times, Mr Chairman, there are shocking things, sometimes done by the Police. Take note that when a Police Officer charges Kgosi even before the evidence is collected the issue is already broadcast on radio. But if he charges a Minister or a Member of Parliament or a politician from the ruling party, the case might even evaporate. But this can never be the case with a Chief. These are things that are happening. Sometimes if it is a Police Officer who is clearly guilty with substantial evidence available in photos, as a police officer ordering that an engine be removed and taken to my borehole, with photographs taken, then the issue will later be ignored But this can never be the case with the Chief. You wonder how these things happen and what they mean? In the final analysis, we end up accusing the authorities. These are things that need to be taken note of. Even our subordinates look like they have been taught to oppress and disrespect us. So Mr Chairman I contribute to this motion because of this. 15 There is no respect, Sir as a Chief when I am rebuked in the village, politicians go to the press and say people are being harassed, without knowing what happened. For instance in the Mogoditshane issues, people are not aware,….. (inaudible) ... For example Mr Chairman, just think of a Zimbabwean who has been in Mogoditshane for three years, finding that the Land Board has compensated someone for a field he and builds a shack at the corner of the field. When people see his shack there, those who want land go and ask him "Sir since you are here can one get a small piece?" Even when he has not allocated to a single person, he says, "I have already allocated to three people. What is remaining now is a small piece worth P5 000. Be quick or else others will get it." When he has not sold to anyone. This is what we always gather from people as hear says. The most disheartening part is that Zimbabweans sell land to Batswana. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Do they also just buy? KGOSI SEBELE I: The Citizen of the country just buy land anywhere and the conflicts that arise thereafter are court cases of which I preside. But you will hear that Government is doing this, the Land Board doing a different thing people going on public demonstrations, talking as they please. Next a politician will gossip saying that we were just passing time. These are things that are out of order. If we are going to win publicity or try to win respect by improper ways methods we are going the wrong way. It is going back to Sodom and Gomorra. It is time for things to be said in truth, to be done in truth and to be shown in their proper way, Mr Chairman. This worrisome, there is no respect, especially for us Chiefs it is worse even though we are supposed to accept just anything. Anything is thrown at us. Now Mr Chairman, let me stop here, I was adding to what my colleague has said. Thank you. KGOSI LINCHWE: Mr Chairman, I add to the motion before us, and I am saying the Honourable House should probably look at other things. I view a motion of this nature as a threat to our stand. I look at it as one of the things in which we might find that we have .... (inaudible)…. The mover tried to mention some points based mainly on the commission, as one of the examples. I fear for our position as Dikgosi on a motion of this kind. This motion Mr Chairman is not clear whether the due respect we are calling for is from the people (tribes) we lead or Government authorities and Non-Governmental Organisations, Mr Chairman concerning our subjects Kgosi Sebele called that we should be role models of respect, that, how do we run our business and how do we co-operate in our districts. The mover pointed out that in her district as our representative of the House of Chiefs in Chobe and the Paramount Chief she should be consulted. We take it that we have the structure of Local Government which talks about the four local authorities. Mr Chairman perhaps we have to investigate to find out whether the four local authorities co-operate one with another and may tell ourselves that if we are calling to be role models, is the Local Government structure in the proper place. In the event that the structure is functioning properly we can learn from that point really the relationship, because we are calling for relation, is good. But whether in any district things are not run properly, like at Kgatleng where they are despise me, we should ask the Permanent Secretary of the responsible Ministry that we be brought together as the Local Authorities and try to iron out the relationship that will reflect "botho" and to know the kind of expectation from Council, land board, Tribal Administration and the District Commissioner from the Chiefs. Mr Chairman, may be this motion comes as a learning point to us as Dikgosi. It is sometimes disheartening to hear that one Honourable Member of this House had a sour relationship with the District Commissioner or the Land board authorities. This really undermines the expectation that we expect from people we work with and our communities. I would like to suggest that when we adopt this motion, we should further request that in our respective districts we call the four local authorities to discuss openly the relationship that is fully expected between us. At some stage we may refuse the minister to transfer some officers because we feel that the relationship prevailing between them and us is good. Mr Chairman this motion comes at time when the Tribal Administration which we head has been given the assignment of going through the Performance Management System and for this task to be successful, effective and functioning it is the Chiefs who are at the forefront but with current relationship this is a futile exercise. 16 It is important Mr Chairman that when we deal with the concept of "botho" we should mobilise the community as well as local authorities, they should be seen to be part of that mobilisation exercise. Community mobilisation has a lot of aspects that we as Community leaders may take them very lightly but they are very helpful. Today we have heard of departments which have been assigned to our respective districts. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members as it is now 12.30 p.m. we shall break for lunch. PROCEEDINGS BREAK FOR LUNCH KGOSI LINCHWE: Mr Chairman most of the points I raised before we went for a break were a summary to the motion. It should be noted that the essence of this motion is centred around the word "respect", or respect within our areas of jurisdiction. So, I would like to suggest that in adopting this motion the minister concerned should also try to train Chiefs in human resource management in order that we are equipped with the necessary skills of how we are supposed to manage them, for them to respect us. What I am suggesting Mr Chairman is found in all government departments and parastatal organisations but with Chiefs, is not the same, mind you, we manage the nation, we are managing the communities around us. The other suggestion is to engage consultants to find out ways in which will help us work this people in a more efficient and respectful manner, with such information at hand I hope our relations will improve hence restore that respect. The reason why other government departments have improved is that they engaged consultants and this has helped to strengthen their human resource management. I do hope that with this measure this can go a long way to help us maintain respect that we expect from our people and for us to respect them. Mr Chairman it has to be noted that as Chiefs we are a government too, but the main problem I have observed is that Batswana are fighting for power, even the people that we are leading are fighting for power. And when somebody is fighting for power, they forget that there is always somebody above in terms power relations all the time he/she is struggling to overtake you. But that is not a way to work out, everyone has defined powers to follow in everyday life. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, I stand to support the motion tabled before this Honourable House by Kgosi Banika. Just as Kgosi Sebele has put it before that respect should be mutual, or in a Setswana proverb "susu dibela suswana gore suswana a tla a go dibele". In other words respect should not just be a one way traffic, but a two way traffic. I do not think this detracts from the motion. We are justified to support this motion because of the many incidences that we see our society displaying that there is no standard code of respect amongst us. It is not the first time we talk about respect and "botho" in this House. I recall one incidence addressing the same issue one minister said as leaders of the nation you are bound to all sorts of criticism because you are in the limelight, all eyes are focusing in you, something that is not consistent with our tradition. We have even talked against the way our President is often depicted by the media that no, no, this is not right. You do not depict our president in the right light, it is not right at all. What we are requesting is not only confined to the Chiefs alone but to all our leaders and elders who deserve such respect.. More often than not we realise that some of our superiors act in collision with certain officers. For instance just an example, one may find that if a kgosi suspend an insurbodinate employee, be it a messenger of court or a police officer, for refusing to execute the orders of the kgosi or failing to discharge his duties the kgosi is also suspended because he has reprimanded that employee. But if there cannot be that disciplinary action the police officers will do as they please as we know that they are always in competition with Dikgosi. I am referring to the local Police officers. They are not aware that they are court messengers under the direction and control of the chiefs. It is a result of this competition. During independence, these people were called court messengers. this has changed recently after the passing of this Police Act. They were designated Court Messengers and they are in fact court messengers, it does not matter whether you call them local police, they are court messengers, this is the respect. In the 1960s, I was working as the District Commissioner in Maun and subsequently Molepolole, I believe most of you had not started working then. The minister would give word to inform Kgosi about 17 his intentions to visit the village. With all the respect I would then go over to the office of Kgosi and deliver the message. Unlike nowadays where these young district officers summon the chief to their offices forgetting that those are the leaders of the land. This is not in line with the Tswana respect that we used to know. It is disrespect of leaders. It explains why we did not have any conflict with our chiefs., where as nowadays that conflict is in existence because of disregarding our Tswana culture and norms that a Motswana youth follow when addressing elders. I want to say that even the law itself is clear, we know very well that the chiefs they maintain law and order in every respect, in their respective villages. According to the way these laws are written, there is no where stated that the chief should not be involved. For instance see Section 22 with your permission Mr Chairman "Subject to the provisions of sub-section 2, a person shall be guilty on offence if he commits any act with intend to undermine the lawful power and authority of a chief". But we have a situation whereby people can afford to undermine the powers of the lawful authorities of the chiefs. The chefs have appealed to you but to no avail, and the police officers do as they wish. As it is now, our respective tribes are concerned about children delinquents who roam in the villages at night terrorising residents and making a lot of noise. And if the chiefs say no to this, the politicians would rush and claim that the chiefs are violating the people"s human rights and the status quo continues. I remember an incident back home where by such delinquents were kept in police custody in Lobatse pending investigation of their misdeeds. However, somebody just undermined the lawful authority of the chief, cancelled their detention warrant and released them. And there are many such cases. On their release, they got involved in a car accident and died instantly with out giving any regard to the crime they committed. If he did not disturb that, they could now be alive. There are many cases, now we are talking about the prevalence of AIDS, and all the bad things you can imagine which people do while under the influence of liquor, they do things that they would not otherwise do while in their proper senses. Yet we often stress that one of the factors that influence AIDS infection is lack of parental discipline. But if an authority as in the chief tries to enforce discipline, they undermine his authority. It does not help, our culture is completely gone. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (DR NASHA): Clarification Mr Chairman. I want to establish whether Kgosi Kalaben is saying that politicians do not allow the chiefs to discipline delinquents. Is he saying that? KGOSI SEBELE: In Molepolole, I was bitterly attacked by the Chairman of the Kweneng District council and his councillors. They even sent the police to apprehend my sub chief Mr Bakwena who was acting under my direction as is contained in under Section 17, of the chieftainship Act. DR NASHA: We must make ourselves well understood. let us be specific. I would rather really urge us to go to the point than aggregating issues. I believe in matters such as these we should specifically address ourselves to the wrong doers. I just want Kgosi Sebele to briefly apprise us on Mr Bakwena"s issue. KGOSI SEBELE: We had dispatched a regiment of young men to collect all these delinquents during the night and place them under the custody of the sub chiefs at the chambers of the main Kgotla. Then in the morning we would summon in their parents who would then discipline their own children before us. Instead of at least holding me responsible for that, they instead harassed my sub chiefs and apprehended Mr Bakwena and kept him in custody. KGOSI KALABEN: We should asses this issue of political interference with the duties of Dikgosi. Otherwise we going to lose control of children. Dikgosi have been given the authority to maintain law and order. But on the other hand we undermine their efforts. I remember one instance whereby people were making noise and playing loud music and the chief took the instruments,. Even the Ministry of Commerce regulations does not sanction such a behaviour as it prohibits that after a certain time disco machines should not be played. The following day this chief was taken to court at the instigation of a 18 politician. Fortunately newspapers had it that the magistrate ruled that the chief had no case to answer he is entitled in terms of this Act to ensure he maintains law and order. There are so many instances where the chiefs are being frustrated, when they to maintain law and order. This is what is said by this motion that there is no respect for the chiefs at all. All these acts are meant to spy on the chiefs.. Honourable Minister, you should address all these complaints that are always raised, not only you but also including those that we do not have any access to., those belonging to other parties. With those points I support Kgosi Banika"s motion. DR NASHA: Thank you Mr Chairman. I thank Honourable Members for their different contributions to this motion. However, I will respond to few raised issues. Even though I realise that in the process of debating the motion, the element of NGO"s has been forgotten, by those who contributed. I thought there is some where it has been touched, however, I believe it was just included by mistake. Respect and humanity are the main issues being referred to. As it is usually said "Susu ilela suswana gore suswana a go ilelele" meaning in respecting each other it must be reciprocal. There is no need for Dikgosi to demand to be respected. Dikgosi ought to be respected considering the way they handle themselves in their respective communities. You are obliged to demand respect since you are not accorded it. I am not disputing the fact that you tabled this motion. If my memory serves me well, Kgosi Seepapitso IV once tabled this type of motion but it was respect for elderly people by their children. Somebody cited an example that when an elderly person finds a young person seated on a chair, the young person will not even bother to move out and let the elderly person sit down on the chair. What kgosi Kalaben has alluded to, it is something that is well known. I remember trying to respond to Kgosi Seepapitso"s motion, when I was still an Assistant Minister, I simply tried to enlighten him that the children that we are talking about are his children not as a chief or mine, not as a Member of Parliament but just as parents. So in this war, when tackling this issue, we should all approach it as parents. This problem of disrespectful children does exist in schools whereby even parents take side with their children and go to the extend of telling the poor teachers that they are not supposed to beat children, since when they fail it will not affect the teachers but the parents. One Honourable Member cited an example whereby even the President is not respected. I once toured some villages with the President, and some older people did not respect the President as well. When someone is supposed to ask the President a question, he will just say other things that clearly indicates lawlessness. As I grew up, I know that law and order had to be maintained in the kgotla, nowadays even a chief is not respected at all. We should know that "E anya e leletse e ruta e e mo maleng" meaning that we should teach the younger ones the expected good behaviour so that they can copy from us. I think the motion could have been tabled this " ........... disrespect of people in authority" since no one in authority is respected. I wonder if when this country attained independence it meant that there should be a culture of disrespect. It is very unfortunate that kgosi Sebele has left, when one is addressing people in a Kgotla gathering, he must first recognise the Chief, since he is the owner of the land where the event is taking place culturally. People think that I usually joke when I address a kgotla gathering, I first recognise the Chief, this is not a joke. I like what kgosi Sebele said that just because the President is not confused in his mind he made me sit close to him,, since he was suppose to help him in answering some of the questions asked by the community member. Some people claim to know something about protocol when in actual fact they know nothing. I once refused to move by the President"s side when forcefully told to do so by one of the President police guard. By then I was the High Commissioner in the United Kingdom. I refused to move until the President realised there was a fight going on and I had to explain to him what was going on. 19 KGOSI KALABEN: Are you referring to a member of Botswana Police. DR NASHA: Oh yes, a member of Botswana Police, the President was on official visit in England. He wanted me to stay far away from the President. So, it is in the minds of the people. Sometimes it is just a police officer or the District Commissioner who make the sitting arrangement. In my case, my position in a Kgotla set-up has always been that Kgosi comes first protocol-wise. Kgosi Sebele did a right thing by sitting far away so that the President could ask about your presence. I do not know whether to term this a disease or an attitude. Usually if the President or a Member of Parliament is to tour a village, a similar letter is written to Kgosi, District Commissioner and a Council Secretary with the hope that the three should meet and work on the logistics of the visit. The District Commissioner being just a mere servant of the people should go and meet the Chief to arrange for the visit. There are some District Commissioners who have good relationship with the Chiefs and only a few rotten potatoes. It is these few bad ones that we must deal with them decisively. If one potato in a bag is rotten and it is not removed, the whole bag will rot. Usually my blood pressure rise when I tour your areas, so I want us to work together and tackle this problem. Recently I asked as to why when a District Commissioner is at fault he is not blamed the same way as when a politician did the same thing. All the culprits who do not do things in the right manner should be blamed for that. One Honourable Member had requested that there should be a law relating to respecting Dikgosi but how will the particular law be formulated. As Honourable Ministers we experience worse things, in any case we are seasonal, but we should demand respect, it should just be there. If one does not want to respect you, he does not have to provoke you at the same time. Kgosi Sebele got carried away and cited that when politicians have done something bad it is not blown out of proportion, but this is not the case because, some had to even resign before the matter could be taken to court. Some had to be imprisoned before their trial took place. I do not want to be pin pointing that so and so once did this or that one did that. I honour this House, but we know some of these things and as far as I am concerned ....... KGOSI SEBELE: On a point of correction, Mr Chairman, I beg the Minister to withdraw his words that I got carried away, I am an elderly person, I am referring to something that ...... MRS NASHA: I take back those words Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to say that he had a point, but the way he was explaining, it was as if he was not aware that these things do happen. I did not mean "mowa' as the churches do, but I take it all back Mr. Chairman. I cannot dispute that there are some politicians who at times say things which are not useful or important just to get people on their side. I usually say to some politicians, I am not sure of an example to use which I do not want the media to write, you all know that when they were fighting for independence in South Africa they used everything in their power which would encourage a state of agitation, worker"s strikes, destroying and burning down properties, killings etc. At last they gained their independence and people are educated and doing very well, but they still continue they still continue to do all the negative things they did in the past. This is the problem. If you behave in such a manner with the hope that people will support you, sooner or later they will see through you. The English people usually say "lies have short legs", and it is exactly what I am talking about. I hope people will be able to see through such politicians sooner, so that some action can be taken against them, and for us there is only one way Kgosi Linchwe mentioned the four Local Authorities, that if they had a mutual agreement to work well together. It is a simple request. When I started work Local Government, I was preaching the same thing. I even went out to "Dikgotla' and members of the Land Board and urged the people to work well with each other. The problem is that everyone wants to be seen as the boss, and they want to do everything to make sure that everybody must feel the pinch. I was just saying that if there are just too many elephant on top, what suffers is the one thing we are working for, the grass beneath. What do we benefit from that? 20 I have talked about what goes on at the Kgotla, Councils and Land Boards, which are under my ministry, and I have failed. Now I have introduced a new system because it seems to be a problem in all the districts. We are trying to identify such districts, afterwards I am going to meet with them and lay all the cards on the table, and address all the issues without the media being present, so that if it is the Council Chairman behind all this we will call a spade a spade and at the end make a decision. This is a journey I have to start soon, because in some areas everything is operating smoothly, but in others, it is a real problem which I cant even explain. My main worry is that, this problem affects the people whom we set out to work and stand for, but we end up frustrating every effort or what they wish could be done for their areas. We are supposed to work together. I could not agree with you more, Kgosi Linchwe. Kgosi and the District Commissioner have to work together hand I hand, because one cannot do without the other. There was also talk of training. I think whether in human resource, computer studies, computer literacy and even management, there are courses everywhere, even at IDM. The Dikgosi are also allowed to go and empower their knowledge and skills, there is no problem in that. I though that you were all aware of that fact, because that is exactly what we want. I talked about painting with only one brush. I have talked to people about unnecessary conflicts. Since we have a problem in Mogoditshane today, we ought to be speaking the same langauge. I saw Kgosi Sebele speaking with an old man about theft on television, that if you have stolen something, the necessary precautions have to be taken, because we cannot let this go too far. Maybe the people whose property has been removed could have been allocated land by now, because there is a map/plan of Mogoditshane which show how the residential areas are going to be. Know there is no way that they could be allocated with all this confusion. Honourable Members, we are about to conclude this motion, and it talks about respect. Who can say that we should not respect or be respected. It is not a motion I can negate, all I can say is that, it has to be a path we all have to follow. We should all hold hands, pull together and make our people to respect each other. Kgosi Tawana, when we joined civil service, when the Permanent Secretary to the President who was then Mr Mogwe, entered the reception, we would immediately stand up. When he was on the stairs and looked down only to find that you had already sat down, you would be called and asked why you behave in such a manner. But today it is not like that. So respect is an important ingredient to make peace in a society. Just the other day I was at a place which I cannot mention by name, there, one grandfather stood and said "the way you are, so and so...." That was during one of Mr Balopi"s commission of enquiry meetings. I told the smaller villages that the commission will not visit each and every one of them, but you must be informed about what is going on. What was going on was that, this old man was standing and shouting, saying "so and so is under my control". The rest of the people were just cheering, "ululating! Festence, Festence!" Probably that was his name at war. We should not encourage such people who are out of order. If people are not satisfied, they have every right to be taken heed of. So, about respect, I agree with Kgosi, as we build this nation as Batswana, it has to be one that can be the envy of other nations. With those few words, I thank you Mr. Chairman. KGOSI BANIKA: I thank all the Dikgosi who have supported me on this motion. I would also like to thank the Honourable Minister for her clear and educating answer. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Question put and agreed to. CREATION OF GAME RANCHES IN THE CHOBE DISTRICT MOTION KGOSI BANIKA: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I have a motion which reads as follows, "That this Honourable House requests Government to create game ranches in the Chobe District." I have brought to this Honourable House this motion, because of the reasons which I shall mention, and the problem my district, Chobe, is facing. We have cattle and in Chobe, but it seems we have a 21 problem, that we cant send our cattle to the abattoir. We end up using them during funerals and weddings. This is all because of the foot and mouth disease which has been there for many years. So, we have no idea what BMC is really about. The other problem is that, there are so many diseases in the area, that in the end your wonder why you breed cattle in such a situation. You find that in the end, the costs are more that the profits. I sat down and discussed these issues with my people, and we came up with a suggestion to seek assistance from the Minister of Lands and Housing, who could allocate an area where we could breed our livestock. We are allowed to have cattle, but our main problem is that we do not have enough land. I plead with this Honourable House to support this motion, so that we can alleviate this problem which is making us poorer with every waking moment. There are no employment opportunities, one would be very lucky if he can find a job at one of the lodges, otherwise there is nothing. . There is no single Motswana who has ever owned a lodge in my country apart from foreigners. But you will find that if by any chance one gets a job in these lodges, there is a lot of exploitation. For instance, the law stipulates that industrial workers should be paid gratuties after every five years of continuous service, as is the case with Government. What happens is that, if an employer realises that the stipulated five years is about to lapse or has lapsed, he changes management and the lodge is taken over by the new management. The whole arrangement makes it impossible for the employee to claim their gratuities from the new management. The new man would not want to be held responsible for payment of gratuities when according to him he has just "taken over". This Mr Chairman is pathetic and heart breaking. Thank you. KGOSI SEBELE: Mr Chairman, I support the motion. the motion is straight forward as the mover has presented it. With those few remarks, I wish to support Kgosi Banika. Thank you. KGOSI KGAMANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. I also support the motion. In supporting the motion, I wish to state that Batswana are always encouraged in cattle farming. The problem we are facing now is that animals are scarce in this country unlike in the past. In areas such as the Central District, animals used to be plenty. But nowadays, one can travel from Serowe to the Boteti area without seeing any animal on the way. Not even ostriches which were said to be plenty in the area. Mr Chairman, wildlife is scarce in some areas as I have already said and there are several factors which contributes to this decrease. Among other factors is poaching which is done mostly by foreigners and drought which leads to shortage of water. There are areas in Maun and Chobe where animals of different species can still be found. What I am saying Mr Chairman is that if we cannot have a fore-sight of securing those animals, we will be left with nothing. Fencing should be provided for these animals. Game ranches should be created as the mover has already indicated. When Kgosi Banika mentions creation of game ranches, I think the best way is for tribe to group itself as is the case in Kgisi Tawana"s area in the Moremi Game Reserve. The people there grouped themselves so that they can benefit from the profits they would get especially from the tourists. The same arrangement should me made. The only difference being that Kgosi Banika wants the area to be fenced unlike in the Moremi Game Reserve. The area there is not fenced but it can easily be identified that from that corner to this one is for specific people in the community who will also benefit from the profits accrued from that piece of land. Thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: When Kgosi Banika presented her motion, she made mention of the existence of foot and mouth disease in Chobe District. She had every right to substantiate the motion with whatever facts she had. You would be aware Honourable Members that currently, Botswana has placed a complete embargo on importing meat industry and dairy products from South Africa because of the occurrence of the foot and mouth in that area as it might affect our area. To that extent Honourable Colleagues, I am using the powers vested in me as the Chairman of the House of Chiefs that the media should not make any mention of the foot and mouth in the local newspapers. They should not publish anything related to the existence of the disease in the Chobe District. I am entitled to make this ruling and if one does not abide by this ruling, the law says, and I quote "any person who publishes any words 22 which are subject of an order made under the provisions of sub-section (1) shall be guilty of an offence and liable to a fine of P400 or imprisonment for two years." I just wanted to hint on that. KGOSI LINCHWE: Mr Chairman, I have a problem, maybe my colleague would elaborate more so that when we contribute we would be very clear about the request she is putting before the House. I am not saying the Chiefs who have already contributed are not clear, but personally, I do not know what the desire is. The problem is that fellow Batswana tried in many ways to earn a living but this was taken away from them. My colleague says there is land that could be allocated to them by the Land Board to set up a game ranch. This should probably pass before us so that when it is explained to us we may know whether the Ministry of Commerce which deals with licences is the one that has been giving them problems. Mr Chairman, our colleague should also tell us whether the game ranch is meant for the benefit of the government or the community. There are policies which talks about community based organisations. I am asking these questions so that I am in a position to understand the objectives of the whole thing, whether there is land for this game ranch and who is going to benefit. MR CHAIRMAN: I do not think I understand Kgosi Linchwe well. What the motion requests is for the game ranches to be created for the benefit of the people down there. It is not that they should be created for the Government. I do not think in terms of the policy Government provides that.... HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible MR CHAIRMAN: Yes, I am sure Kgosi Banika refers to game ranches such as those for ostriches. She is thinking in that line. She mentioned that Batswana are not able to breed livestock. A few that we have create problems because we do not send them to the BMC. As an alternative to cattle farming, we should resort to wildlife. I think this is quite explicit. KGOSI SEBELE 1: In addition to what you were saying Mr Chairman, I wish to say that Government also encourages people on tourism so as to benefit from it. What the Honourable member requests is to focus in her own area. KGOSI LINCHWE: That is not a problem Mr Chairman. As I indicated earlier, I was not very clear with the motion. I did not know what it really wanted. Like all others who have supported the motion, I wish to state that land as an important commodity should be utilised for the benefit of the community. Land in this country is scarce. It should not be sold. We should take the opportunity that Government has offered us through our leadership. The policy confines itself on the community based organisations, so that the Wildlife Department can be able to help the community to develop. We are very much aware that we still have P8.1 million, though it might be less by now. It is important for those who have the land and have engaged in the creation of ranches to be assisted immediately, to avoid the situation that we see now, foreigners coming into this country and taking away the land from Batswana for tourism. Mr Chairman, this should not be delayed, if the land is available, let the Chobe people have it. The Ministry of Commerce and Industry would then given them the licences where applicable. I thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI TAWANA II: I am worried Mr Chairman, because I do not know what the role of government will be in this instance. I wish that the Chobe area could be gazetted for game. It is up to the local community there whether they want to go into game ranching or cattle rearing. If game ranching has been gazetted and ready to be implemented, still it is going to be difficult for Batswana to do game ranching because it is very expensive. And the land will end up going to foreigners because they have the resources to start the business. Those who have been able to acquire boreholes as land are allowed to convert from traditional use to commercial use of game ranching, so that they can be able to approach banks, not for government to be making it compulsory that the land should be wholly reserved for game ranching. Thank you Mr Chairman. MINISTER OF COMMERCE AND INDUSTRY (MRS SERETSE): Thank you Mr Chairman. I thank the mover of the motion. Let me first start by saying that the motion as it is and the way it was 23 presented, has two folds. It might have been appropriate to have made two motions. As the Honourable Kgosi was saying when she concluded, that the Minister for Land and Housing could provide land. So, one then gets the impression that the motion as presented has an element dealing with lands or land allocation whereas my Ministry is on the part of looking after game and licensing to have such game. So, it seems to be a little confusing here. Anyway, with that background, safe to say that as no doubt you are aware Mr Chairman, that my Ministry is charged with the responsibility of looking after wildlife to ensure that we continue to retain all the species of wildlife that we have and to do all that is possible to ensure the protection and multiplication of such wildlife. Honourable Members will be aware that recently there have been issues that we are involved with, that of elephants, where we are caught up between environmentalists who are concerned about soil erosion and those concerned about wildlife. The Honourable House should know that we have problems with elephants, even if we try to sell them, we still have certain international agreements on some issues. The Non-governmental Organisations which have the responsibility over wildlife, have a problem about how this issue is being handled, while the communities are saying, these elephants are too many and are destroying people"s farms. So, in terms of animals in general, I think as a government it is a deliberate policy to ensure that we retain the species that we have. This is why we have the Khama Rhino Sanctuary where the rhinos are being looked after. Mr Chairman, though we cannot talk about the issue of foot and mouth now, but we do know that it is a practical problem that sometimes when wildlife mix with cattle they end up infecting each other with diseases such as this. MR CHAIRMAN: May I ask the press not to report on that one. MRS SERETSE: There are infectious diseases that can be transmitted from one animal to the other and vice versa. Having said that Mr Chairman, currently we have one government ranch called Ditlhopho in Kweneng District. The purpose of this ranch is to see that some of the wild animals can be domesticated. Further, we are in the process of developing another game ranch at Matlhoaphuduhudu in Ghanzi District for purposes of demonstrating for those people who are interested in game ranching. So, the main purpose of this ranch once developed, is to train people who are interested in game ranching, as to how this animal behaves, how it feeds and drinks and so on. So, it is not the intention of government to establish game ranches in the Chobe District or for that matter Mr Chairman elsewhere. As we know Honourable Members, through you Mr Chairman, currently government is looking at the policy and it has adopted a policy of privatisation. And that privatisation policy as much as some people are looking at it with hesitation and uncertainty about the good that it will bring, particularly with the fear of creating unemployment as perhaps government would have to retrench people in certain institutions. But the crux of privatisation policy is, let government concentrate on provision of public goods which nobody else, not the private sector, would be interested in providing, for instance, roads. The private sector, regardless of what tolls you could impose on roads, the private sector would never be interested in maintaining roads, like schools, education. They are just interested in seeing a final product and hiring a final product. So, it is situation where government is saying, to be in partnership with private sector so that private sector can concentrate on some of the things which it (the private sector), can do efficiently and effectively, let us shed off some of the weight from ourselves as government and let those people who can do those services and provide those services and those goods and services efficiently do so. And it would be in contrast to the spirit of the privatisation policy that we would say that there are new ventures which are not public good inclined that government would want to take on at this particular point in time. So, it will also seem not to be in harmony with the spirit of privatisation. My Ministry"s role Mr Chairman is to facilitate the establishment of game ranches by whoever, private sector, the community, through formulation of appropriate policies and regulations. As a business it is 24 our opinion that game ranching is better run by the private sector and/or by the communities themselves and not by government. Currently there are a number of individuals and/or companies as Kgosi Tawana has already alluded to the fact that this game ranching is an expensive initiative and needs an expensive venture. So, in order to facilitate this, my Ministry is working on a policy that aims to promote this industry. I think Mr Chairman it is not of any doubt, it is not in question that game ranching as a tourist attraction and further perhaps even as the medical profession is saying that cattle meat is not in certain instances there are so many people today who do not eat beef because it has too much fat. And the point is that game meat has not got such fat that causes all these other undesirable illnesses and side effects. I think there is no doubt Mr Chairman that those people who are going to venture into game ranching would eventually in the long run, after mastering how the game is supposed to be, be they individuals and or private sector, they would eventually have a market because even biltong will be made and packaged and they are prepared in all sorts of sophisticated way and this group of people who no longer eat beef can eat wild animal meat. So, it is a bit frustrating for me Mr Chairman because as much as I share the sentiments of the motion, but it involves just beyond my Ministry. Because in the first place for the game ranch to be done by anybody, the first question would have to be, is the land available and are the conditions there suitable for such game ranching. Let alone the fact whether or not it should be done by government, by the private sector and or by communities. So, I think the prerequisite to the question would be whether in fact the land which is available there, what title ownership is the land currently held under and from that, after that prerequisite is met, then to say, having satisfied the conditions of land and having seen that the land has the correct or the appropriate title to it, then can you then come up as a second step. So, Mr Chairman, where you realise I am not very clear it is because this motion goes beyond the sentence the way it is put. In conclusion Mr Chairman I reiterate that my Ministry will not create ranches in the Chobe District and there are no immediate plans, either to create such ranches elsewhere. I thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Minister, I understood you to be revisiting the old arrangement where the Gemsbok were going to be domesticated for the benefit of Basarwa. Now, if it is intended for that purpose, then that is not good because why should Basarwa be used as guinea pigs for the domestication of Gemsbok? If this is the intention, then you should rest assured that it will meet some objections. If this project is to be tried on Basarwa, why can"t they be given cattle instead of Gemsbok? It is not right to discriminate against Basarwa and give them those animals. Thank you. MINISTER OF COMMERCE AND INDUSTRY (MRS SERETSE): It is important, Mr Chairman, that I must comment. My information is not that the domestication was firstly for a particular species of animals. It is just that, it is domestication for wild animals. I do not have the list specifying the intention of the project regarding these wild animals. Further, Mr Chairman, it is not my information that this domestication was going to be done for a particular ethnic group, if that is your information, I have otherwise, and I too, like yourself, Mr Chairman, would have a problem if in fact it was to be quoted, unquoted discriminatory in any way. KGOSI SEBELE: Regarding elections, the purpose of elections was for demonstration purposes, it is actually a demonstration ranch for wild animals. MR CHAIRMAN: Some of us are not conversant. we are not conversant, that is why we are so quite. Do you still want a question to be put or not. KGOSI BANIKA: The problem is during the last session, I asked a question directed to the Ministry of Commerce and Industry, who sent it back. This time I was of the opinion that it will be the responsibility of the Minister of Lands to answer the question. When the Secretary told me that the Minister was here, I thought she was going to answer on behalf of the Ministry of Lands and Housing. The main problem is, when the Ministry of Commerce and Industry returned this motion, they 25 indicated that they did not have any problems with the motion, the problem lies with the Ministry of Lands and Housing. This time the Motion was directed to the Ministry of Lands and Housing. MR CHAIRMAN: With the current scenario, after the motion has been deferred, the question should be put and agreed to. MINISTER OF COMMERCE AND INDUSTRY (MRS SERETSE): Mr Chairman, this problem we had it in the last meeting of the House with Kgosi Tawana and I remember the question which is not sent to the correct Ministry. I remember, I thought we agreed that in future the Secretariat together with the Chairman should choose which questions go to which Ministry because it may not only happen now, it may happen again. On the contrary, even if the question was directed to the Ministry of Lands and Housing in the form of a motion, then they will react accordingly. Procedurally, before such things can be implemented, there are studies which needs to be carried out eg. environmental impact assessment studies which sometimes stretches up one to two years to complete. The feasibility study if it was a business concerning the environment that is being talked of, even if the answer could be wild animals have always been there. But its important to ascertain the number in a given region as well as the kind of species and to monitor environmental desertification, water and all those kind of things. I think that is the total picture that they have to look at before one can even say yes, alternatively, whether or not there is land. Thank you Sir. MR CHAIRMAN: If the question is put, we would have to and then the House agrees with you. The resolution, we send to the Minister, but you already know the answer. After it has been debated by the House, you will not have another opportunity to discuss this motion, in the foreseeable future until after a very long time. That is why I am saying, it is your motion, you must guide us whether or not you want me to put the question to the House. KGOSI SEBELE: Mr Chairman, Kgosi Banika is a new Member of this House. I do not think she understands you, that is why she does not reply. In my opinion, I think this motion should be deferred to a later date so that it could be rephrased. MINISTER OF COMMERCE AND INDUSTRY (MR SERETSE): Mr Chairman, can you defer after discussion? MR CHAIRMAN: It will not be a deferral as such. We will not put a question on this. It will be suspended. KGOSI BANIKA: I think its better if this motion is given to the Ministry of Lands and Housing because they have indicated that they can give a reply on Wednesday. MR CHAIRMAN: In other words you move that the motion be suspended without taking a vote on it. KGOSI BANIKA: Yes Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: That is what the mover says. It is unfortunate that we have taken the whole afternoon without reaching a conclusion on this, but the motion is suspended. It is now 1603 hrs and we should have adjourned at 1600 hrs. We thank the Honourable Minister for having been with us the whole afternoon. I would request the Honourable Members of this House to please stay behind. Thank you. ADJOURNMENT The House accordingly adjourned at 1603 hrs until tomorrow Tuesday 26th September at 9.30 o"clock a.m. Tuesday 26th September, 2000 THE HOUSE met at 9.30 o'clock a.m. 26 (THE CHAIRMAN in the Chair) PRAYERS **** QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER STANDARDISING THE PRICE OF LIVESTOCK KGOSI D.S. TOTO II: asked the Minister of Agriculture when he would consider standardising the price for livestock. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (MR SWARTZ): Mr Chairman, the economy of Botswana is based on a free market system. Producers of any commodity are free to sell to anyone who offers them the best price. Standardising livestock prices will mean dictating to producers prizes at which to sell their products. I do not believe that this will be in the best interest of the producers and the economy. I thank you Sir. KGOSI TOTO: Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to know whether the Minister is aware that those buyers who dictate prices on their own terms of weighing cattle exploit the farmers. MR SWARTZ: Mr Chairman, I think it will be reasonable to assume that the price that is offered by the Botswana Meat Commission (BMC) could be taken as the floor price because it is guiding this middle man. So I think it is negotiated, one will, offer to pay P2-10 thebe or P2-50 thebe per kilogram and these are the same as P2-50, P2-10, that is paid in Gantsi generally it is P2-10, per life weight. If on average BMC pays P5-00 per kg, life weight should be half, if it is half of dead weight, then they are more or less equal, thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: Minister, I am aware that some people requested for price negotiation with the BMC since the BMC dictate the price without negotiating with the producer. MR SWARTZ: Yes sir, we have been negotiating with the BMC in relation to their continued problems. But as for negotiating BMC prices as alluded to by the Chairman I am not aware of such. I mean nobody has come to me about any price negotiation. However, BMC has set prices. KGOSI D.S. TOTO II: Thank you Mr Chairman. I will table it as a motion in future Mr Chairman. REVISITING ARABLE LAND DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME KGOSI D.S. TOTO II: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he would consider revisiting the Arable Land Development Programme (ALDEP) to make it accessible to every Motswana. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (MR SWARTZ): Mr Chairman, all Government Assistance programmes are targeted to assist specific groups. In the case of the Arable Lands Development Programme (ALDEP), it was designed specifically to assist small subsistence farmers to acquire inputs that would help them to improve their production. This is why the programme was limited to farmers who earned P20,000 or less that is annually or owned less than forty cattle. Following concerns about the high cost of the Programme and some cases of abuse, a decision was taken to carry out a comprehensive review of the Programme. I am therefore presently not in a position to revisit the programme until such a review has been completed. Thank you Sir. KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you Mr Chairman. Is the minister aware that the discriminatory nature of ALDEP targeting specific groups disadvantages those people who have the interest to better their lives through this scheme. It means that those people who are excluded by this scheme will forever be in poverty and will not have a chance to improve on their lives. MR SWARTZ: Mr Chairman, When this scheme was implemented, the cutting point was very low. During that time it was equivalent to 9 000 or 12 000, that was the cut off point. But the Government raised the cut off point to P20 000 per annum at the effect of increasing beneficiaries in view of poverty 27 alleviation. And many people took advantage of the scheme. Therefore most of these schemes target specific groups, just like ALDEP which specifically target that given group, of low income earning groups. I believe that most of them are within the P20 000 income earning bracket. Whether anyone gets P100 per annum or P1000 up to P20 000 per annum and less, they all qualify. CONSTRUCTION OF INTERNAL ROADS AND INSTALLING STREETLIGHTS IN GOODHOPE KGOSI BESELE II MONTSHIOA: asked the Minister of Local Government to say when she would consider constructing internal roads and installing street lights in Goodhope. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MRS KOKORWE): Mr Speaker, on the 20th June 2000, I informed this Honourable House that in July 1999, the Southern District Council commissioned a design consultancy for upgrading of Goodhope internal roads to bitumen standard and installation of street lights. As at now, the designs have been completed and tender documentation finalised. However, due to financial constraints in the current plan period, actual tendering and construction will be considered during the National Development Plan Nine (NDP 9). Thank you. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, before I ask a question as when did the plan start? MRS KOKORWE: July 1999, the design. KGOSI KALABEN: I want to ask as to what has been happening in time last 33 years. Wasn"t there a need to put in place an infrastructure program for roads. Why should it only start last year, just the design, I am not talking about the provision of funds but I am talking about the design. Why did it take so long? MRS KOKORWE: We were aware of that need, however, as we know that we operate as per our National Development Plans, we were still implementing the provisions of those plans. But now we are in the pipe line of including those KGOSI MONTSHOIA: Thank you Mr Chairman, Kgosi Kalaben has asked the question I intended to ask. FILLING GOODHOPE REVENUE COLLECTOR POST KGOSI BESELE II MONTSHIOA: asked the Minister of Finance and Development Planning to say when the vacant post of a revenue collector would be filled in Goodhope. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR SEBETELA): Mr Chairman, I would like to state that there is no vacant post of Revenue Collector for the Ministry of Finance and Development Planning in Goodhope. Having answered the question I would like to explain in some detail the cadre of Revenue Collectors in Botswana. Revenue Collectors are appointed by Accounting Officers of respective ministries to collect or receive revenue for goods or services sold by those Ministries and which revenue will eventually be deposited with Treasury Cashiers at Government revenue offices. For example, the Accounting Officer for the Ministry of Agriculture will appoint Revenue Collectors for his various departments. Therefore a cadre of Revenue Collectors transcends all Government Ministries and Departments in Government. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, why is there no arrangement to appoint a revenue collector there? Why don"t the relevant Accounting officer implement such? That is the question. As to whether the post is vacant is not the crux of the matter. What is more pressing is that revenue has to be collected. But that is not happening as no one has been appointed to do so. 28 MR SEBETELA: Mr Chairman, as I was trying to explain earlier on, revenue collectors have to be appointed by user ministries. We will investigate as to which ministry is responsible for revenue collection there, which has not yet appointed a revenue collector as it is required. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Which ministry are you referring to? MR SEBETELA: Ministry or department. Not only finance sir. KGOSI MONTSHIOA: I do not know how to put this question... MR CHAIRMAN: There are revenue collectors in all Government departments. KGOSI MONTSHIOA: What I am saying is that revenue office is within the jurisdiction of Ditrict Administration in Good hope. But right now the revenue from Good hope is directed to revenue office in Lobatse. That is the problem. MR CHAIRMAN: I do not know. I know that there is only one revenue office in Maun. I do not know if that is the one that services Tribal Administration as well MR SEBETELA: Mr Chairman as I was saying... KGOSI MONTSHIOA: I do not know if the minister understands well. MR SEBETELA: I do understand you Sir. As I said we answered this question in our own context however, as I explained we do not have such a designation... Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI MONTSHIOA: Is the Minister really clear on this matter? MR CHAIRMAN: I think he is clear and he has promised to make a follow up. KGOSI MONTSHIOA: If that is the case, then I thank you Mr Chairman. GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS TO BE PRIVATISED KGOSI TOTO II: asked the Minister of Finance and Development Planning to state which areas of the Government departments he intends privatising. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR SEBETELA): Mr Chairman, although it is recognised that there is scope for privatising and/or hiving of a number of activities presently being handled by Government departments, it is not possible to indicate at this stage which specific activities of government will be privatised. Government is in a process of establishing an autonomous entity called Public Enterprises Evaluation and Privatization Agency (PEEPA) which will be responsible for the implementation of the privatisation policy. Once PEEPA is established and is operational, it is expected to undertake a through study and analysis of all government activities to establish those that are candidates of privatisation and to draw up a detailed master plan of privatisation or commercialisation in consultation with all key stakeholders. It is when PEEPA has fully assumed its responsibilities that a list of potential activities for privatisation can be produced and made available to interested parties. As far as the establishment of PEEPA is concerned, the organisation was registered as a company in September, 2000 and the recruitment of an Executive Director is underway. It is expected that PEEPA will be able to commence its operations before the end of this financial year. Thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: If I understand you well Honourable Minister, this PEEPA is an independent company. 29 MR SEBETELA: Yes, PEEPA will be a company registered in terms of the Register of Companies under the Companies Act in Botswana. HONOURABLE MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR SEBETELA: 100 per cent Government, but it has to be in this manner. PEEPA has to be a privately operating company owned by government in order to remove the normal red tape and bureaucracy of government that works as a deterrent to many developments, and also to enable the implementation of privatisation as planned. MR CHAIRMAN: I would like to know from the Honourable Minister. How come Air Botswana has already been privatised. MR SEBETELA: Parliament came to a conclusion in 1994 that Air Botswana will cease to be funded by government as you will recall that the reason why Air Botswana is making a lot of profit, government injected cash to the tune of P72 million as well as write off the outstanding debts owed to government by Air Botswana. This conclusion was reached before the Privatisation Policy and everything is going on fine and if Honourable Members feel they need a briefing regarding Air Botswana, we could do so in the next session. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: I would like to know from the Honourable Minister how the establishment of PEEPA is done. Do you have a consultant or is it done by civil servants? MR SEBETELA: Yes Honourable Member, as we stated in the "Privatisation Policy" PEEPA is going to be registered like is the case with other companies. Like I said before, it was registered in September, 2000. PEEPA is going to function the same way as BDC, as you might be aware, BDC is a registered company, though parastatal, but its different from the others. There was no legislation passed in Parliament to set up this company. BDC has been registered under Companys Act. I believe PEEPA underwent the same procedure in September 2000. This registration is done by the Ministry of Finance and Development Planning. If during the process the need for consultants arise, we will engage them. But at the moment the Ministry of Finance and Development Planning has been charged with the responsibility. SUPERVISION/INSPECTIONCARRIED OUT DURING ROADCONSTRUCTION. KGOSI TOTO II: asked the Minister of Works, Transport and Communications to say what type of supervision/inspection is carried out during the construction of roads; the Minister should further say which criteria is used during supervision and inspection. MINISTER OF WORKS, TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MR MAGANG): Mr Chairman, my Ministry through Roads Department, carries out supervision of road construction projects by engaging the services of consultants. In this regard, consultants carry out their services by ensuring that construction of all components of the works by the contractor is done in accordance with the set specifications and to the required quality, and conducts tests on finished work prior to acceptance by Government. The Roads Department staff manage and monitor work being carried out by both the consultants and the contractor on a regular basis. The management and monitoring of the works include ensuring adherence by consultants and contractors to the set specifications and drawings through extensive inspection of the works, achievement of required level of quality work, adjudication of any contractual claims arising in the process of construction and safeguard against any untimely decision which may result in additional cost to government. Finally, Mr Chairman, I would like to further inform this House that, despite manpower resource constraints suffered by the Roads Department, its staff conducts regular site visits to the respective projects sites, including attending projects site meetings where various issues relating to respective projects are discussed. Thank you, Mr Chairman. 30 KGOSI KALABEN: Honourable Minister, I would like to know if regarding this inspection, has there been adequate supervision, especially that piece of road between Jwaneng/Sekoma which has not yet completed the life expectancy period, it is completely gone. Was there proper supervision, even if there was proper supervision, who is to blame for the poor condition of the road in terms of compensation and what have you. MR MAGANG: The story of Jwaneng/Sekoma Road is a long one. The road was properly supervised and was constructed according to specification and the design at the time, but it was not done according to international standard to carry the present volume of traffic. It was done as a cheap road according to the amount of money available to construct a road to last 10 to 15 years, if the volume of traffic was as it was at the time. Unfortunately we then designed the Trans Kgalagadi Road from Sekoma to Mmamono which is of higher standard specifically intended to carry heavy volume of traffic, of big trucks and so forth and so forth. Unfortunately the road in between Jwaneng and Sekoma was of a cheaper standard, originally intended to carry up to say Tsabong saying more or less the same standard of Tsabong and then of course with the opening of the Trans Kgalagadi Road, heavy traffic, heavy vehicles and so forth, of course it was pounded down by those big trucks. Now, you can criticise on the basis that we should have anticipated that there will be Trans-Kgalagadi Road to be built but at the time with the limited amount of money at the time that was the design intended to last for shorter period. Now we are reconstructing the road, at the moment it is under design to be reconstructed to the same standard as from Kanye to Jwaneng and from Sekoma to Mmamono to the same standard because then it will carry the same volume of work. So, the supervision was there in the normal way, but for a road to last 10 years and as it happened it lasted maybe five, seven years, it is dead. Thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI TOTO: Thank you Mr Chairman, would the Honourable Minister dispute the fact that what he is telling us here is not exactly what is happening at the site. As according to the Honourable Minister"s explanation this is what should be happening out there, but I am afraid this is not the case. I can cite examples, one of them is the Jwaneng/Sekoma, the other example is the Tsabong/Makopong road. Right now the road is already worse. When it gets hot, the tarmac melts away. This is the boiling point of the matter. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR MAGANG: I take it that I have thoroughly explained the Jwaneng/Sekoma situation. I think Kgosi is aware of the saying "masi ke tswa thobeng ke le phepa selabe se tla ka motsaya kgamelo." Naturally things never happen as planned. Our main constraint here is manpower shortage, that is why we resorted to hiring independent consultants. Although we are expected to visit and inspect the projects time and again, but sometimes we take long to do so. At times something may just go wrong. The tar can melt after the construction of the road, and in that is why in such instances the professionals usually keep adding more gravel to such a road. That is what usually happens when the roads are being used. I must admit that there are a lot of mistakes which can occur when constructing roads or even houses. Mistakes which are no done intentionally. KGOSI KALABEN: To this day, this Zakhem saga, does it really teach us anything relative to the question asked by Kgosi Toto? MR MAGANG: Is it not that we do not hire Bangwaketse anymore? ....laughter..... MR CHAIRMAN: What do the Bangwaketse have to do with Zakhem? MR GAREBAKWENA: Has there ever been a time when some people were charged after being hired to construct a road, and later on it was discovered that it had not done properly? Are they charged a sufficient amount that could benefit the government, will it be just unfortunate? 31 MR MAGANG: When a road is under construction, there must be the owner or a representative, being the government, to keep an eye on things and make sure that everything is on the right track. If something is not done well, the responsible party has to rectify. That is how is is done. If the fault was not easily detected, the government usually loses a lot of money. Let us say for example that while still under construction, there is need for the construction company to increase its staff or their salaries/wages, he cannot ask the government to increase the money they have agreed on. The same thing applies to faults, if they had put too much tar, they have to rectify that problem at their own expense, not the government"s. If the designers did not do a good job, they have to pay for it. Examples include the Nata-Kazungula, where we had found out that it was not the construction company"s fault, but a hired a group of Americans whom we had hired to design the road. The same thing applies to the Serule-Selebi-Phikwe, Dikabeya-Kgagodi roads, which had to be fixed. One other thing is that construction companies are always aware that something might go wrong, that is why each time an agreement is signed, it is agreed that a payment of about six or twenty months will not be payed for sometime while the road is still new. If a fault is detected, that money will be used to fix the road if it was evident that it was the constructor"s fault. Even after a house has been built, we sometimes wait for the rain to make sure that there are no leaks, before we can make the final payment. That is how we try to prepare ourselves for such unforeseen circumstances. It just depends on whose fault it is. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Do roads have a guarantee? If it is like the one you have just mentioned, that it was expected to have a guarantee of about this much, what happens if something goes wrong after the allowance period of twelve months has lapsed? Do they say if anything happens before or within this period you have to pay, or it just ends with the twelve months and the money put aside. MR MAGANG: That one will just depend on whether the owner was able to detect the fault from the design at the beginning. We have our own professional government engineers, the private company engineers, as well as those we sometimes hire to keep a close eye and make the necessary inspections. All these people have to technically agree on the type of road suitable to last for a certain specified duration. You still keep on referring to the Jwaneng-Sekoma road, but I have explained that it was a cheaper one. It is just like Sekoma-Tsabong one, it is the same standard road, but the difference is that there is not much traffic on the Tsabong road. In the end, if maybe we could say that it was the government"s fault, who said that the road which was technically supposed to last for duration, would last for a longer time. So, if it is the consultants, construction, and the government who made a mistake, then who is to blame? MR CHAIRMAN: Let me assure the Honourable Minister that there are a many roads like that, it is just that they chose the Sekoma-Jwaneng one. I travel a lot, so I can tell you each and every of those roads. MR MAGANG: Can Kgosi list them down. VACANT POST OF A COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT OFFICER-NOJANE VILLAGE KGOSI W.T.B. RAMOSWAANE: asked the Minister of Local Government whether she is aware that the post of Community Development Officer (CDO) in Nojane village fell vacant since last year, if so; the Minister should state when the post would be filled. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MRS KOKORWE): Mr Chairman, Nojane village has always had a Senior Community Development Assistant and not a Community Development Officer. I am however aware that the post of Senior Community Development Assistant became vacant in June 2000 when the incumbent was transferred to Gaborone City Council. I am happy to report that an officer has been identified for the post in Nojane and it will be filled with effect from 1st November, 2000. Thank you. 32 INSTALLATION OF STREETLIGHTS IN COMMUNITY JUNIOR SECONDARY SCHOOL KGOSI M. KGWATALALA: asked the Minister of Education when he would consider installing street lights in all community junior secondary schools and senior secondary schools. MINISTER OF EDUCATION (MR KGOROBA): Mr Chairman, current practice in the construction of community junior secondary schools and senior secondary schools is to provide street lights which are within the school campus. The information that I have is that all schools are well lit under such provision. I would therefore be happy to receive any information to the contrary so that the situation could be rectified. I thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI KGWATALALA: There are community schools in some areas like in Bobirwa where children go for evening studies in the dark since there are no street lights to the schools. That is why we have bo mosomi or Makgaolo 7 that is juvenile delinquents, and this interrupts other children studies. One child was attacked, and it is because of this problem of dark roads at night. The government should observe such things, especially in schools where there are evening studies. Thank you Mr. Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Kgosi. Students get excited when there are no lights. SUSPENSION OF CURRENT BOTSWANA FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE MOTION KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, because of the time constraint, may I, with your permission, start the discussion on this motion after tea. MR CHAIRMAN: Is 15 minutes not enough for you to lay the ground? KGOSI KALABEN: No, Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, the motion has been put by the Member to start deliberations after tea due to time constraints. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Mr Chairman, normally we start the debate, go for tea, then come back and continue. It should be clarified... MR CHAIRMAN: We still have 15 minutes. . KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Yes, Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Do you mean 15 minutes is not enough to lay the ground? Do you therefore move that the debate on the motion be taken after tea break? Honourable members, the motion has been put before this House. I am advised that in this case the house has to vote. Do you have any seconder? MR KALABEN: I wish to plead with the Honourable House to give me 15 minutes for my presentation. Questions put and agreed to. PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR TEA KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, I wish to move "That this Honourable House requests Government to suspend the current BFA Executive Committee and to reconstitute and appoint an interim committee in place of the suspended committee." Mr Chairman, the reason for my presentation is that in the past, this decision was taken by the Appeal"s Board which is a legally constituted body in terms of an Act of Parliament. 33 Mr Chairman, let us go back into the history of football in Botswana. Not long ago, the former member of parliament for Mogoditshane Honourable Kgosipula brought a motion to Parliament which sought Government to look into the affairs of football in Botswana. He told Parliament that the standard of football in Botswana was deplorable and requested Government to come up with some ideas and means on how the situation could be improved. Government supported this motion and as result a Commission of Enquiry was appointed to look into these allegations. The Commission was chaired by Kgosi Seepapitso. Surprisingly Mr Chairman, we hear that the commission completed its assignment but the report has up to now not publicised. I know there are commissions which are appointed to look at specific allegations, make recommendations and make them known to the Minister responsible only not for public consumption. But with this one, everything was done using the tax payers funds. The public have the right to know what the report entailed and the government"s reactions to the recommendations made by the committee. The Chairman of the committee has now been seconded to America, which means the whole issue will be abandoned. Mr Chairman, we understand the Appeal"s Board caused some confusion after the appointment of this committee. One organisation, an affiliate of the Botswana Football Association complained about the conduct of the BFA Executive Committee, that the BFA acted in conflict with its own Constitution and the Societies Act. The Affiliates got a ruling and were informed that the activities of the BFA would be nullified. They were nullified only for the past football season. Mr Chairman, the BFA Constitution made some procedures which are followed when certain things have to be done. And that is not to be read in isolation, there is a law passed by the Supreme Legislature known as the Societies Act. The Societies Act Mr Chairman is a guide when dealing with societies such as football, churches and any other associations. It states that if an association wishes to change its constitution, prior approval from the Registrar of Societies must be sought for the intended change. The Registrar has to signify that he approves your request. This has not been followed and it led to some confusion. What I want to emphasise in the House is that the BFA Executive Committee has no respect for the rule of law. When the law says this, they do the opposite. These laws govern the activities of football. Football in this country is a national sport and is not the BFA"s property. Members who were appointed to man this committee were appointed with the hope that they will run the affairs of football responsibly which is in accordance with the law. Unfortunately that is not the case. Football followers suffer because things are not done properly. Even football affiliates go into disrepute because it is always taken to the Appeal"s Board, even to the extent of going to the High Court. There are cases where affiliates have gone to the High Court. That is the threat they hold over the head of the affiliates. FIFA statutes at the same time says that BFA should not be taken to court. Our fundamental human rights are not governed by the FIFA statutes. Anyone has the right to take anybody to court including the Mother body. That is why they are always given the go ahead when the Mother body itself contravenes the law. What normally happens is that, if the affiliates win the case in court against the Mother body, they are suspended because they are said to be hiding under the cloak of FIFA statutes. According to them , FIFA statutes states that they cannot be taken to court. What I am saying Mr Chairman is that the Executive Committee run things their own way and end up suspending football clubs. These guys should restrain themselves from these things because at the end of the day, it will not be good for their welfare. Football is one such sport we all understand and enjoy in Botswana unlike cricket which is played in European countries. We started using tennis balls for football. It was a useful entertainment because we spent most of the time playing football and had no interest in other things. We get entertained even now when we watch our children playing. But now that we have BFA who are expected to lead us in this national sport, and they are doing as they wish and ignore the very laws that are the guidelines of running the affairs of football. 34 Mr Chairman, let me say this, in the Societies Act, Registrar of Societies, if you amend the rules and regulations of the association, you should abide with them. As for the Botswana Football Association, owaii! to them that does not mean anything. They just ride rough over the law to the extent that after drawing attention to their mistakes, they go behind and try to straighten up things that they did not do in compliance with the terms of the law. We learn that at the Appeals Board they had two Constitutions which had the Registrar of Societies date stamp but the provisions were not the same. Little realising that when they make tricks somewhere along the line they will be caught. But they managed to manoeuvre and made your officer to put a date stamp on the constitutions. They took those Constitutions, gave one to those who sought assistance from the Appeals Board, and the other to the Appeals Board. Previously Mr Chairman, what happened is that the junior board, (I understand it is Super League Committee, something like that) queried this. But I am sorry, they are so recalcitrant as I understand. If you try to show them that something is not right they cannot listen. When questioned, the head BFA"s executive committee admitted that they did things wrongly. We were not supposed to amend the Constitution without prior consent. On that basis we went to the convention to literally make a formal amendment. And he did confess that, that was a criminal act. Not only in terms of the Societies" Act, but even in terms of the Penal Code. They made a false document and uttered it. This is an issue that should be taken to the Police. And that is the reason why Mr Chairman, I would like this committee (BFA) suspended and in the meantime try to correct the mess it has done, by even applying criminal prosecution. Mr Chairman, this is common place in administration, when a public officer is charged with a crime, or will be charged with a crime, they are suspended until their case is complete, to avoid tempering with the evidence. Principally, that is one of the reasons why I am making this request to the Minister. And in any case I see in the minutes, the address by the President of the Botswana Football Association over the weekend, that it was his wish that things go back to normal so that mistakes can be rectified. Mr Chairman those people are not capable of rectifying their mistakes. Instead of rectifying their mistakes they will cover them up to the dire detriment of the organisation or football sport. Because already there are indications that they have committed crimes punishable under the Supreme Laws of the state Mr Chairman. I am putting this motion before this Honourable House Mr Chairman, to consider. It will not be the first time Mr Chairman for an executive of the BFA to be suspended. It happened some years back though it was not for the same reasons, but that time it related only to administrative irregularities but not the infractions of the supreme laws of the country. But government saw it fit to suspend the Executive Committee and have Interim Committee which was Chaired by Kgosi Linchwe II. He played an important role in the football fraternity, at the time when I was still conversant with matters of football. Mr Chairman, you will recall the BFA ruling of the Appeals Board, it clearly indicated that the 1999/2000 football season was invalid. Okay, that was it, then see what happened; the subsequent activities after that ruling of the Supreme Organ were rough shoed over the ruling. They ignored the Appeals Board completely, about the issue the Appeals Board did not go into whether present activities like World Trade Fair, whether they will be included. The method that was used was the same one used on the results of the previous league season which was ruled invalid by the Appeals Board. The other complainants who are the BFA affiliates tried to talk with the BFA executive committee, but it was a display of arrogance. I am sorry to say that. There was no order, everyone wanted to do as he pleased not adhering to the implementation decision of the Appeals Board. Why then has government gone to all costs and expenses of coming up with those statutory Administrative Appeals Boards if their rulings are not observed. We might as well forget. In Botswana it will be a sad day Mr Chairman where the rule of law is not observed. If the supreme laws say this is going to happen, and people try to make tricks to the dire prejudice of those who claim to be their affiliates, in the long run they end up at the court of law. This is not the correct thing because they do not want to work hand in hand with the affiliates in the proper manner 35 according to the law and they do not know if the affiliates are afraid to go to the court of law because they might be suspended after their return. Even if the court of law can rule on their favour, but still they suspend them when they come back. And I am saying there will be a day where you suspended somebody because they had gone to the court of law, where you will be treated for contempt of court and you must bear that in mind. When a court of law rules that you have ridden rough over the rights of an individual and it rules on his favour, it is completely wrong for you to try to flout the ruling of the court created by the law of this land. This is wrong. Forget about those papers like the Red Cross, FIFA, I pronounce them useless in so far as the legal position of our people are concerned. And do not always hide behind those things. Conduct our football according to the mandate given. Mr Chairman, just to illustrate one point, when I started I said, you have a BFA report in front of you which contains all this mess about football. We have almost 33 years of independence, trying to run our football. We have leaders in football, but they do not advise or communicate. The expatriate who has come to promote football, Mr Kofi, oh Lord, a fiasco. His salary is equal to that of a Deputy Permanent Secretary or even more, for doing absolutely nothing and the BFA structures continue to support him. These are public funds which are being misused. He has to go since he is not delivering. I do not know whether it is for personal reasons. When the Botswana Football Association protect him, they gain something by so doing, but as outsiders we see that the man is not delivering at all. When you agreed to Kgosipula"s motion that there should be an enquiry as to why the performance of football is low i.e. why we perform badly. The main problem lies with the Executive. There is no point Mr Chairman, in increasing affiliates, increasing teams up to sixteen just to cover what the Executive has done. At the end of the day Mr Chairman, the performance becomes lukewarm. That is why Members of Parliament and House of Chiefs Members have been complaining about the performance of football. Just look at our neighbour here, South Africa, in Soweto alone I think they have at least 6 million people but the clubs from there are less than the clubs from the whole of Botswana. Look at England clubs, I think they have over 51 million people. I think we are under 2 million in Botswana, but because of the Executive Committee that is running our football association, they do not consider the size of the population. All these reasons have made me to table this motion before this Honourable House. I urge the Minister to look into the low performance of football and establish why we are not on a right track. He has to believe in the notion that "new broom sweeps clean" as the old ones have rusted. They have been there for a long time and they now assume that they own the place. These are the ones who do not even care about the results, whether we lose or win. Currently we have sent a team of people to the Olympics in Australia. We thought they will make a plan of sending the under 23 team. Usually when they perform badly they are careless. HONOURABLE MEMBER: They disband? KGOSI KALABEN: They do disband and then we reconstitute the Zebras. When they perform badly that is when they disband. They think that when they disband, that is when they improve football. The only way to improve football is through getting other people with better and new ideas. Thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI MOTHIBE LINCHWE: I would like to support the Honourable Member who tabled this motion. We have to prove that this House indeed advice Parliament. The Executive Committee is doing what we have not heard of and even what our forefathers never experienced in their lifetime. Football in this country is being run by the Botswana Football Association (BFA), Executive Committee which the Honourable Member is requesting that they be suspended. They better look after their cattle since they will do a perfect job there. Mr Chairman, all the football affiliates in this country are so frustrated and they do not know as to whom to turn to on this matter. If the Honourable Minister is not going to give them a hearing ...... (Inaudible). Going to the court of law will mean other expenses for them. As the BFA structure was 36 developed, a legal advisor was included, Mr Chairman, we thought this was a great development. He then left and I do not know where he went to later. Currently the Executive Committee has a lawyer, he is there to advice on the constitution of Botswana Football Association. The BFA have an Executive, which has a Secretary General. The Secretary General on timely basis has to have the constitution to see that things run smoothly. As it is right now Mr Chairman, it is like some of the things will be done for the interest of some people and not for the affiliates. If we were to count the number of affiliates, they are about 500, some of them are able to realise when the constitution has been violated. Some members of the Executive Committee belong to a particular football club i.e. 80 per cent of them belong to a club which won the case at the Appeals Court. This has helped them because they were to be relegated to a lower division. This motion which calls for the suspension of the Executive Committee has been tabled at the right time and this is the time when the expatriate lawyers employed should as well have their contracts terminated. If I recall, the Minister said Botswana now has attorneys who can do a good job as well. They can be employed in the Office of Registry of Societies. I am quite aware that there are people doing a good job from time to time as they advise all the clubs registered with their constitutions. There was nothing that curbed the Executive from sorting advice so that the confusion that resulted could be curbed as well. We have read from the papers that some members of the Executive Committee are already leaving and the question is who is going to clear the mist that they have created. It is now the duty of the Minister to suspend this Committee and set an Interim Committee so that it clears the existing mist especially that some of them are even leaving. The old Committee can be dismissed or even suspended but the affiliates should be given a hearing. Recently there was a Special Convention of which when it came to an end some affiliates were still not satisfied. If the Minister was to set an Interim Committee it could look into these matters and come up with suggestions that can help to run the association in a perfect way. Mr Chairman, we are not aware as to whether those directing some Government departments could not work and guide the Executive Committee when there was still enough time, or as one Honourable Member has already alluded to, some members of the Executive Committee do not want to be guided, but very soon all these will come into the limelight. Mr Chairman, I just wanted to be brief so as to give others a chance to contribute as well. I emphasise on what the Honourable Member who tabled the motion said, that the Interim Committee be set. I think the Minister now is quite aware that some people should not be elected to the Committee, he now knows those who can do the job well. He must take new people that will run football properly. Thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI SEBELE I: Mr Chairman, when discussing issues of national importance it may appear as if we are forgetting that these people are working as volunteers. Perhaps one might fear that they may get discouraged if we heavily criticise them. But the truth is, when necessary it should be done. The intention is not to attack or criticise them destructively. What the mover of this motion is saying is that the executive committee is a servant of the nation, sent by the nation to serve the nation, to produce. But if the nation is complaining about the failure of the committee what should we do? There is nothing that can be done but to talk. We must talk unflinchingly because Botswana is still growing, we are a new country growing with our everything. There used to be a primitive talk at the time when we were at primary and secondary school. Football that time was regarded as an extra-mural activity. A teacher would say," sports is a waste of time, I am going to prepare homework, I am not going with the students for sports."Also at that time teachers were not paid subsistence allowance, nothing was taken seriously. I think it is now a legacy of the past, all Batswana, even old women are interested in football, they even go to the stadium. If the BFA Committee that has been given power according to the mover of this motion and according to the press, I think the powers that be, may be the Minister, as we are directing this issue to him, is supposed to do something about the request in this motion. As a chief 37 for the last twenty-one years I have never seen at anytime the Botswana Football Association requesting for a meeting in Molepolole to address Bakwena about football. This is one of the things which I think they were supposed to do. These things were supposed to go along with the development of football in our country. They were supposed to hear people"s views, sell to the people their work as Botswana Football Association. During the weekend I would rather have my child look for cattle because I can use them to pay for his school fees than play football as he cannot gain anything from it. The football committee is supposed to educate people about what they will gain from football. We see children from other countries progressing. Children progress in life because of football. We saw this from our child who has just been transferred to Germany. It is a very good example. I have never seen such a request, which I thought was something important. However, I see a flow of complaints through the media levelled against the Botswana Football Association. If Batswana who need to get educated about the importance of football hear that this Committee is the one that is being talked about in the Press all the time, it is the one been taken to court, will they be convinced? Can this very committee go to Molepolole and convene a meeting to address people? People would say, are they the ones we just heard have been taken to the High Court? Is it proper for you to come and address us? Obviously you are failing, you are not clean people to appear before us to tell us about football. No wonder the mover of the motion is proposing that the committee be suspended. The Commission report is there with its findings and recommendations. The Minister should look at it and suspend these men so as to investigate properly because it is evident that they are not producing as expected of them. We do not prejudice the committee in any way. I think it is in their best interest as well for them to be suspended so that all these accusations levelled against them could be cleared. If what is said about them is not true, they will be reinstated. I think it is procedural, like the mover has said, that when there are things like this, we suspend the leaders about whom it is being complained, so that it should never be said that they seem to be interfering with investigations which concern them. We have to grow, Batswana get cross everytime when the Swaziland or Lesotho teams or Bafana-Bafana come to play us. At the end of the day we feel ashamed. We go and cause road accidents because of the defeat. A shameful defeat, so we leave thinking about the defeat going to places like Mochudi, Molepolole and Kanye. It is scornful. Are we probably not going to link these things ...(inaudible) The Minister is the only one who can help us when we come to issues like the one the mover talked of, that when the affiliates win a case at the High Court the mother body might penalise them for contravening its regulations by taking it to court. They are not ordered to leave for no reason. We read in the media that the affiliates are not happy. Mr Chairman, I am saying the Minister should understand what we are saying. The intention here is not to discredit our children, somehow we thank them at least they are leading football in Botswana with their committee. If you are a leader who does not do some things properly it will be seen. When told so you should not misinterpret, because we cannot talk about the performance of anyone else but the leader. We are going to judge by what he produces and say whether he is doing well or not. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am also in support of Kgosi Kalaben"s motion . He mentioned that there were investigations that were made by the Commission of Inquiry led by Kgosi Seepapitso, a report was made, but it appears that even though that work was done we are in what Kgosi Kalaben calls chaos. Now if this report cannot be used to solve this chaos may be what he is suggesting could be done. Batswana love football. Government responded to their wishes by contributing financially as we hear about the lump sum that is put into BFA as salaries for employees. This is done in order to secure qualified people who will do the work satisfactorily. Now there are no results from them. It is therefore proper that they be suspended for a way forward to be mapped in their absence so as to avoid their interference. The truth that has been spoken is that football is one of the sports that Batswana like, they come from far with it. When you move around villages you will find them playing only football, you will not find them playing others that we know. Your children play only football, they will play it starting from 38 primary school and continue with it. And it is proper that if there is anything that appears interesting to people and also beneficial to them, that can also teach or help them to be responsible government should put money into it. But it would not be ideal to leave the long standing problems unattended, a concern that has even been expressed in the media. Now as things stand there is no smoke without fire, therefore if a problem has been identified something has to be done to rectify it. Thank you Mr Chairman. MINISTER OF LABOUR AND HOME AFFAIRS (MR KWELAGOBE): Mr Chairman, and the Honourable House, what I will attempt to do is first of all to respond to the motion as tabled and understood by the Ministry. Thereafter I will then attempt to answer Honourable Members on the specific issues that they have raised. So I will deal with the motion in that fashion with your permission Mr Chairman Sir. Mr Chairman, the Botswana Football Association met in Palapye on the 23rd September 2000 for a special meeting in terms of the BFA Constitution of the National Convention. There were 121 out of 150 members/delegates/affiliates. Therefore that should indicate that the quorum was then formed and therefore that meeting proceeded, in terms of the Constitution of the BFA. The meeting was called Mr Chairman to try and resolve the problems caused by the decision of the National Appeals Board in a matter where Gaborone United Football Club was challenging the constitutionality of the 1999/2000 Football Season. That was the issue before the Appeals Committee - the league itself. It is common cause that the National Appeals Board ruled in favour of Gaborone United Football Club, thus causing a constitutional crisis within the Botswana Football Association. The meeting deliberated a motion that effected the amendment of the constitution at the Maun Convention in February 1999 and resolved to procedurally adopt the amended constitution pursuant to Article 23 of the Botswana Football Association Constitution. A vote through secret ballot was conducted as contemplated by the constitution and resulted in a total of 109 members voting for adoption with 8 against, thereby achieving more than two-thirds majority. Mr Chairman, the next item which was discussed by the Special Convention was the ratification of all decisions and actions taken pursuant to the Palapye Annual Convention of 22nd July, 2000. This type of ratification was not a constitutional amendment. And therefore did not require a two-thirds majority vote. It was nonetheless voted on to determine a simple majority. The results of the vote were 80 in favour and 25 against. The second vote on this matter was in relation to the Ratification itself whilst 82 members voted for Ratification, 16 members voted against and one abstained. This vote therefore indicated that all decisions and actions taken pursuant to the July meeting stood ratified. The final item discussed concern the new league structure for 2000/01 and subsequent seasons. The National Executive Committee presented two scenarios for consideration, these are; the first one being a direct translation of the National Appeals Board judgement namely: that the league season 1999/00 should be repeated as it had been declared null and void, and; the second scenario related to having a structured super league of teams thereby accommodating the legitimate expectations of teams that had emerged champions in the first division and then adjusting the rest of the league structure as necessary. This approach would ensure that all clubs that were due for promotion got it. After intensive discussions the matter was put to the vote and the results of the vote was 69 in favour and 44 against. The motion to increase the teams to 14 therefore failed as it did not achieve the requisite two-thirds majority to amend the constitution. By this vote it was determined that the 12 team league would be retained. Mr Chairman, I must state that I am satisfied that problems facing the Botswana Football Association have been properly resolved under these circumstances. Article Seven of the Federation of International Football Association (FIFA) statutes enjoins that people involved in the game should resolve football problems. Therefore Mr Chairman, my Ministry has no plan at this stage to take the 39 action proposed by the Honourable Kgosi Kalaben, as this would not only lead to the suspension of the BFA from International Football, but we also encourage dialogue for the resolution of problems. I can only hope that whatever action the aggrieved parties may take will not harm the status of football in this country. That Mr Chairman is the statement made in response to the motion as tabled and as we understood it. But as I said Mr Chairman there were issues which were raised which I will have to respond to. First of all, let me say that I quite understand why this Honourable House is concerned about lack of performance of our teams. It is a legitimate thing, because you are the representatives of the nation, just as members of parliament. It is our concern and it is everyones concern to our sporting fraternity failing to perform according to the nations expectations. And you have rightly cited Hon Kgosipula"s motion in the House calling Government to find a solution to this lack of good performance by our sporting teams. Now as a reminder Honourable Members, Kgosipula"s motion was not confined to football alone but the sporting fraternity as a whole, that, it is not only in football where our performance is poor but also in other sporting activities. This motion was later followed by a commission of inquiry chaired by Kgosi Seepapitso to look at the problems of poor performance in sports as a whole. An important point to note is that after the report is released it is handed to the government to look at the recommendations, but it does not necessarily mean that government will accept all of them, sometimes it can be possible but on other instances she can amend some or accept part of those recommendations. The report was brought before the cabinet and accepted some of the recommendations of the commission, and left those that it felt were not necessary according to them. Thus those that the gorvernment has accepted will be made public after we have looked at them. Again it does not follow that every time the report is commissioned will be made public, because sometimes the government only needs such commissions for future references, but with peoples opinions forming part of that commission. Your appeal that the findings of the Seepapitso commission be publicised is legitimate, I do not see any problem of realising them. So the only problem I have is suspending the committee and appointing another one, this is because we are trying to implement the accepted recommendations of that committee. The other problem as honourable members may be aware that it is not the first time we have these interim committees. You will remember that we once had an interim committee that was headed by Mr Gaborone, and we had yet another one which he chaired as well. If I am not mistaken I remember that even Mr Gobe Matenge was once appointed the chairman of an interim committee to look into football administration. It is not really that I have a problem with setting up an interim committee. But that in the past we have had so many interim committees in place and I wonder if this is the best solution to have interim committees. It could be that us as a ministry have identified the problems which we are working on the solutions, and giving them advice so as to chart the way forward to allow things to be done in a procedurally and in line with the law. So I do not believe that constituting an interim committee is a real solution, as I say we did that before but to no avail. I feel that the better approach is to give support and guidance to the elected members of the B.F.A. The ministry should work closely with them to see to it that things are done in accordance with the laid down procedure. No one is denying that things did not go accordingly, hence the convening of the convention of 23rd September. It was convened because things were not done accordingly at the one that preceded it. Therefore it is my believe that these officials are our own. We need to direct and guide them, because it is our believe that things were not done procedurally, rather we should not dismiss them and replace them with others, as it happened before, and it really did not help the situation. Honourable members and in particular the mover of the motion Kgosi Kalaben has said that the procedures are provided in the constitution of Botswana Football Association, and in the Societies Act, however, they were not followed as was demanded. But I have been informed that when they convened the convention of the 23rd, the provisions of the Societies Act were complied with. As the members 40 say earlier on, the BFA did not comply. But this time around they complied with the provision of the Societies Act. Hence I say if we re visit the issue again we are going to waste time trying to put things in order for our tams. hence I propose for guidance and direction. Honourable members also said clubs are suspended after lodging an appeal with the courts, hence I request to be appraised on such clubs, as I am not aware of that. I remember that when I was still active in football sports, the team that I then supported which is Notwane took it"s complaint to court and after that it was never suspended. I also remember that rollers as well once went to court,. but it was never suspended. KGOSI KALABEN: I want to remind the minister that the Penalty of engaging the court against the so-called FIFA statues is not only suspension, but teams are fined P10 000 as alternative to suspension. There is a penalty, sir, if teams are not suspended. MR CHAIRMAN: In their statutes of....... KGOSI KALABEN: Yes, of BFA they fine.... MR CHAIRMAN: Isn"t it that others now fear to go to court …. MR KWELAGOBE: As said Mr Chairman I am not aware. I am new here, I have just arrived because I have long went away. I am not aware that a penalty has been pressed against them either in the form of a suspension or fine after they have gone to court. I take it that if indeed that penalty had been lodged against them, in defines of the courts ruling, the same club would go back to court to raise the issue contempt of the court as Kgosi Kalaben once said. They should have determined whether an order which is in line with our laws and constitution made by a court of Botswana which court is constitutionally constituted can be overturned by anybody. That is why I request the Honourable House has got any example I will be very happy if they can draw my attention to. The court itself has the right on its own to call upon such a person and reprimand him. Or else the club on itself can raise that contempt with the courts so that they can determine whether indeed that contempt of court did take place and act accordingly. The danger of this is that, if it is true that people are punished for going to court then, then people will fear to seek redress with courts in times of trouble, fearing to be subjected to such punishments. MR CHAIRMAN: Just a point Minister. Is this not what is raised by Honourable Members here Honourable Minister. I believe it is true that these FIFA and BFA statutes, more especially the clause about punishing the clubs after seeking redress with the courts will deter clubs more especially those at the rural villages to seek help with the courts in times of need. They would not even try it. MR KWELAGOBE: Mr Chairman, I understand you. But I am saying it has not happened. Hence I request this Honourable House to please appraise me on the teams that have suffered this so that I may take the aprropriate steps. So I want to be taken aboard about this FIFA statues, even though we do not have any juridiction over the statutes as such have been written adopted by FIFA itself. But our law grants our citizens the right to go to court, and our citizens are well protected, in that they are free to seek help with the courts if need be. They must go to court, and clear any mist or address any other complaints. They have that constitutional right to go to court. FIFA or no FIFA, they have that constitutional right. But if there are any clubs which confused about this, now I tell them through the House of Chiefs, that they have the right to go to court, if they are aggrieved. But we try that complaints be resolved before clubs resort to the court system. But if the clubs feel that it is imperative for them to go to court, I think it is proper for them to know they have protection in terms of the constitution to do so. As Kgosi Kalaben said even the secretary admitted, particularly about the irregular amendment of the constitution, I think it takes a great man to admit that. But I think if a person has admitted that they have made a mistake, I take it as a good thing. 41 The problem arise when they deny the existence of such problems.I will seek clarification from the relevant people as to what the regulations say in terms of BFA constitution so that I will beat about the bush in responding to the questions from this honourable House. I have already talked about non-compliance and the Societies Act, that after that mistake, we have complied. So, what I would say is that, on many instances, going to the High Court is really meant to go against the decision of the Appeals Board not the decision of the BFA, because they are subject to go to the National Appeals Board. It is only when an aggrieved person or club is against the decision made by the Appeals Board, that they can go there. KGOSI KALABEN: Point of clarification Mr Chairman. There are instances where either an aggrieved affiliate feels that things will pass him by, and then he immediately goes to the High Court without going through the Appeals Board, not that it is a matter which arises from the complaint that has not been handled to the satisfaction of the affiliate. For instance, let us say that there are games or a particular sport taking place, then a particular club which is supposed to take part is arbitrarily left out. He goes and obtains an interdict, which does not require an Appeals Board. I just want to clarify the fact that it is possible that one can go ahead without going through the Appeals Board, in a hurry to obtain an interdict so that BFA cannot do this, until this and that takes place, and have taken the case to the Appeals Board. That is what they sometimes do. I believe that some people thought that this World Trade Cup Independence, as a result of the Appeals Board ruling, ran to court and requested for an interdict so that these people can be stopped and corrections could be made, a matter which is not normally redressed at Appeals Board level. That is all I wanted to say Mr Minister, that take the House on board. MR KWELAGOBE: The way I understand Botswana law, I believe that even if you ask for an interdict in court, it is your right. You might make the request, with the view that the decision that might be made, may be prejudiced against him. So, in terms of our legal system, he has the right to go to court. Each and every Motswana, club, organisation has that right, unless if our legal system specifies that you, as the complainant cannot go to court. But we take it that if you have gone to court, it will only depend on the facts presented. If the court says that a person is not justified, it will not entertain the appeal for an interdict. But if they feel that you are justified because they have been given the opportunity to go through the facts, the court then decides that under those circumstances, we either allow the interdict or we disallow the appeal. PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH MR KWELAGOBE: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I had really summarised, but one other point is that I wanted to add on what was said regarding the statutes of FIFA. The particular article, I will give it my lay man"s interpretation because I am not a lawyer, but I take it that we regularly apply common sense on some of these things. There is this believe that when FIFA says that people should not be taken to the courts, and if they do they would be wrong. I really want to give it my personal interpretation because I take it that what FIFA is insisting on is not the punishment for those who seek assistance as such, but whether the football associations have been affiliated at FIFA, and that the arrangement is a clear, straight forward and according to the rules and regulations of football, to the extent that it will not be necessary to go to the court of law. So that straight forwardness, I take it that it does not apply only to football, but to other different associations like Rollers, Gaborone United etc. I take it that even any BFA, when planning for games of the same code, they will do it in such a way that it will not be necessary to go to the court of law. Other clubs should do the same. That is the spirit this clause of FIFA statutes. If FIFA could find that the mother body is not running things accordingly, it would have to call them to order, just like any particular club. That Honourable Members is the spirit, the same one that is in our Constitution or as the laws at the administration of justice. For example, at the courts whether at the magistrates or High Court, as an individual, the court makes an assessment on whether you have a case or not, if you are not found guilty, but when you look at your argument and it is frivolous, that is why at times you are asked to pay 42 your costs and that of the accused. However if your case was well presented with evidence, but with a few loop holes and therefore, you do not win the case, what is sometimes done is that both parties are asked to pay for their own costs, thus you were not frivolous. I assume this is the same spirit which FIFA is supposed to try to interpret, because it will not only be addressing the guilty party, but the running of whole administration as well. Therefore, it is trying to reduce moving up and down to court rooms, and encourage working together according to the rules and regulations. That is also what we are trying to do. When all the rules and regulations we make are not on the same level with our laws, we say they are ultravires, they are our Constitution, and as a result they are dismissed. That is why we are encouraging people to do the things right. That Honourable Members is my lay man"s interpretation, I am not saying that is the law, but you will agree with me that if you use your common sense, that is right. The last point Mr Chairman is a question of BFA having to consult with the Sports Council as its mother body and the public at large for them to know the affairs of sports in this country. You will find that in most cases when a child wants to go and watch activities such as football, netball, cricket and so on, there are some parents who tend to think that, the child is making an excuse of not wanting to help with the daily chores at home The reason for such parent"s behaviour is that they are ignorant of these things. I remember when we were still young boys, we used to have church classes, go for football practices and attend scout meetings. These were scheduled for each day of the week after school and as I have already said, the parents would think you are avoiding odd jobs such as stumping corn at home, which was in a way true. What I want to emphasise is that BFA and Sports Council should keep parents well informed about sports more especially that stadiums are mushrooming in this country. Parents should feel free to give permission to their children to attend such activities without hesitation as sports is very important. Mr Chairman, I am not saying it is the responsibility of the BFA and Sports Council alone to keep people informed, we as leaders and representatives of the people must also emphasise that point to the people. All I can say is that I have heard and understood Honourable Members concerns and will try by all means to give the BFA Executive Committee advise and guidance to rectify their mistakes. I think that is all they need rather than suspending them and appointing an interim committee because if we appoint a new one, we will not be doing justice to the current one. What I suggest we do is to show them where they are not doing things right. The Committee should be advised on how to run the Committee business such as abiding by the rules of the constitution. I think they too already know of their mistakes, that is why they held a special convention at Palapye recently trying to rectify some of their mistakes. It would be unfair to suspend them when they are at the verge of normalising the mishaps stated in the motion. The Committee"s term of office Mr Chairman is three years. Elections are held after every three years, so the current committee would be replaced or be re-elected to continue, depending on the football clubs and delegates representing them. Let us give them another chance. interim committees were appointed several times in this country and if I am not mistaken, in terms of the Sports Council Act, the interim committee is not appointed by the Minister responsible for sports. It is appointed by the National Sports Council. Is that not so? HONOURABLE MEMBER: No... MR KWEALGOBE: I have been thinking all along that it is appointed by the Sports Council. This being the case Mr Chairman, I still request that the current committee be given guidance on how to improve the running of their affairs. Thank you, sir. MR KALABEN: Mr Chairman, before I respond to the contributions made by the Honourable Minister, I wish to express my disappointment that the Minister made his contribution or responded 43 reading from a prepared speech which showed that the Minister did not come to this House with an open mind of discussing this issue and maybe come to a compromise. It is very unfortunate that he brought a written response obviously prepared by his officers, the same culprits we are concerned about. In other words Mr Chairman, there is nothing wrong in anybody forming provisional impressions or even conclusions. But in a case like this, the Minister was supposed to have come with an open mind to further impressions arising from the discussions we made. It was a waste of time Mr Chairman to have tabled this motion because the Minister came with ready answers and was not prepared to make a critical appreciation or scrutinise our discussions before he responded to the debates. One other thing which concerns me most is that the Minister, in his response stated that there was a special convention of the BFA in Palapye where the intention was to rectify their mistakes. And one such manner of rectifying was the adoption of the amended constitution. That is what the Minister said. If he could have just taken his time and not read that prepared speech, he could have understood what an adoption of the amended constitution implied. Mr Chairman, this is another way of showing how this Ministry does things, of not abiding by the law. The Societies Act does not contemplate adoption of amended constitutions. There is nothing like that. All that can be done is to amend provisions in the constitution The law specifically says and I quote with permission Sir - "No registered society shall change (i) it"s name (ii) any provision of it"s constitution or any rules, regulations and bye laws." Your officers, Mr Minister went further to adopt the new constitution without following the right procedures of promulgating that new constitution which was adopted. One other thing Mr Chairman, it is impossible to adopt a new constitution in a day, say from 8.00 am to 12 noon, like they did. It was not humanly possible because they had to read each section page by page before adoption. But if the new constitution was not adopted, then the Minister was misinformed. The law does not contemplate that. If at all you talk of the consolidation of the past resolution amending the constitution, I would understand, not adopting the amended constitution. The lawyers you prepared the speech you presented to this House are just paid to misinform the executive and the convention. The fact that they adopted "in their words" the amended constitution, compounded an error and that is one of the reasons why we say they should be suspended. Mr Chairman, this comes around the scenario that government is so committed to the development of sports. Government has put in place infrastructures around the villages such as Molepolole and Tsabong. Kanye is unfortunate as there is no mention of a construction of a stadium there. But football started in Kanye. Most of the interzonal players in Botswana originated from Kanye. MR KWELAGOBE: On a point of clarification Sir. I think there is a problem. The response I gave was with regard to the motion which read "That this Honourable House request Government to suspend the current BFA Executive and to reconstitute and appoint an interim committee in place of the suspended committee." That is why I gave a response which the mover is not happy about. I think I have explained to this House why I responded that way. There was no question of the constitution itself raised in the motion as tabled. Maybe that is why we concentrated on the motion as it appears. But if there is an irregularity in ratifying the Constitution, that we will seek legal advice from the Attorney General"s Chambers and if that is not in order then we will comply with the law. Thank you Sir. KGOSI KALABEN: There is a problem, it is unusual for a Minister to start by reading a text, it never happens. The Minister usually responds to comments and in addition to that, reads his written response. Now that the Minister started with the written one, it showed that there was going to be a problem. There is a problem in the administration of football. And I am saying here, besides the fact that the statutes have been contravened, there is an evidence of infractions of the statutes, we are talking about the same government policy of sports development that public funds are being used. And we are cognisant of the fact that sport is not only football, there are several of them but the most popular sport in Botswana is football. Instead once they are given funds to develop sport, this money is being used to 44 pay their useless lawyers who give them improper advice. They defend their cases at the High Court, with this money when they know they are the ones to blame. There should be a procedure followed with money that has been expanded, those who expanded it and the executive committee are surcharged. They should pay back that money which they gave to their friends, the so called lawyers, they must stop playing with public money. It is not only that, it was written in the papers about this football mess. They start wondering whether the funds are expanded in the right way, because of the rumour that prevails. Government should intervene because these are public funds which are not even taxable. This was in recognition of those people who are going to help in development of sport by way of sponsorship. If by misappropriating the funds, they start asking I can rest assure you, that if they can ask for an increase in the sponsorships, those people are going to have some doubts as to whether it is right to put money into sports where it is being abused. Because of the poor organisation, people with authority do not seem to use it. Mr Minister, I cannot agree with you more on the interpretation of the FIFA statutes. That is the rational interpretation which must be entered into FIFA statutes. The executive should not take things for granted, that when they mess up things, FIFA will suspend them. If we leave the complainants to go and complain in the legally recognised judiciary, they should do things correctly, without hiding behind FIFA statutes which I call Red Cross etc. I do not care about those FIFA statutes, especially if people think that they should be superseded by Botswana laws. But, your interpretation is a very rationale one which respects the rule of law in Botswana you can place it in those statutes Mr Chairman. There is a tendency of the Botswana Football Association - there is no way that you can know what is happening in football if the media cannot report about it. Do not be too hush with these children, they have got a duty to inform us on what is taking place through the media. So, do not hide things and then when you go to conventions start telling them off. It is a free society here which has the right to be informed. We as recipients of that information listen and understand how things are going on. But this does not give them the latitude to misinform. We want proper information and if there is proper information emanating from your offices I do not see why there should be anything hidden. But you can only hide information from these people if there is something to hide from your offices. Mr Chairman, it seems to me that the Minister did not realise that the motion was in fact saying there was a mess in the BFA. That we just wanted to suspend the BFA executive committee and replace it with an interim committee. But the fact that in brief there has been previous interim committees I do not think this should inhibit the Minister in being carried on board by this House with this motion. Because those interim committees corrected lots of things and because that is a voluntary office and there is no one who can….. (inaudible)…… even the sports council members are volunteers who must oversee these people. We realise that time and again there is a need for the Minister to intervene where necessary. There is a need to intervene in the national sport where it is being brought into disrepute by the conduct of BFA Executive. Thank you Mr Chairman. Question put and agreed to. UNLAWFUL REPOSSESSION OF GOODS BY SOME FURNITURE SHOPS MOTION KGOSI SEBELE I: Mr Chairman, my motion reads thus, "That this Honourable House requests Government to monitor the worrisome practice by some furniture shops which repossess people"s goods unlawfully." Mr Chairman, I would like this Honourable House to support me because the nation has a problem. We go to furniture shops to buy furniture, some of us having some knowledge of the law and others without that knowledge. But at the shop there is a contract that has to be signed by the seller and the buyer, indicating how much the latter will be paying every month and so on. But, because of other commitments in life, one is bound to fail to honour the agreement. In the final analysis the buyer is not 45 able to meet their demand. The seller straight away comes to you, or they send the messenger of the court or the deputy sheriff. Sometimes they even send the shop assistants to your residence At times they just take the furniture even when one is not at home. If one is lucky her children might telephone her and once she gets there you are told, the agreement was that if you do not pay your property goes back to the shop. Our people are in trouble Mr Chairman. I attended a Performance Management Seminar not long ago, on the performance management of the Attorneys. Fortunately for me, I attended this seminar on behalf of the Chairman of this House because he had other commitments. During the deliberations, I had an opportunity to ask about this issue of repossession. The High Court Judge and the Registrar pointed out that nobody is entitled to repossess people"s property unless a legal procedure has been followed. The shop has to write to the concerned buyer a letter of notice, and if they do not respond, then the shop will take legal action. You might then end at the High Court if you do not comply, and the last resort will be then to repossess your things. That is the answer I got Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, our tribes come to us day and night, saying, Chief I missed a month or two but I had the money, I found the furniture repossess, and it was taken in my absence, from the children. I tried to pay but I found it already sold. I continued explaining, Mr Chairman, that even when it is being sold, no legal procedure is followed, so that at least a public notice be issued that furniture that was repossessed at such and such a place will be sold on this date, which could even provide an opportunity for one whose furniture has been repossessed to pay for it within that given period before it is sold, according to legal procedure. But it was explained that doing that way would be wrong. Mr Chairman, I have brought this motion before this House, to request Government to intervene. Some Batswana are ignorant, when furniture has been repossessed for a P100 balance, it is too expensive for a Motswana to take legal action against those who have repossessed his goods, because the only way would be to take action through a lawyer. So it is expensive for a Motswana, when he considers that the balance was P100, but it will cost me something in the region of P1000 or more to engage a lawyer, he gives up. So that thing in a way encourages inconvenience to people, it encourages flouting of procedures that exist in our country. That is why, Mr Chairman, I request this Honourable House to support me for Government to intervene. Even these Messengers of Court, Mr Chairman, are of two kinds, he becomes a Messenger of Court when he is serving summonses from the Magistrate Court, and then be becomes a Deputy Sheriff when serving summons from the High Court on behalf of the Registrar of the High Court, who is the Sheriff himself. When they go and do these things they deliberately claim at the level of Deputy Sheriff even through the High Court regulations do not say he should be paid that way. Sometimes even when the mileage from Molepolole to that place is not worth more that P300 they just charge you P600, they get it just like that from people. Probably just a Messenger of Court serving summons from the Magistrates Court in Molepolole goes and does that in the capacity of a Deputy Sheriff, which is expensive for the person who he is going to serve because the fees for the services of Deputy Sheriff are higher than those of the Messenger of Court. So these things, Mr Chairman, inconvenience people, they get people into trouble. property is repossessed unlawfully, Mr Chairman, people take others money which is not legally due. When somebody who goes to serve summons from the Magistrates Court is supposed to serve as a Messenger of the Court he goes and serves as a Deputy Sheriff, which is a transgression of the law. The procedure according to the law is not like that. He can be two in one, a Deputy Sheriff and a Messenger, there is no problem, but when he is serving summons from the Magistrates Court to someone in Molepolole, he is supposed to serve it as a Messenger, not a Deputy Sheriff because he is not serving an order from the High Court. This thing is harmful to people, Mr Chairman, I request that this House support me. KGOSI JACKALAS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will also try to contribute briefly. He spoke at length. People"s property is being repossessed. After that their names are taken to ITC so that they 46 person should never recover, financially however much they try. Even this legal procedure that they follow, I do not know whether it is to go the Magistrates or High Court to ask for a stamp or the debtor comes to give his reasons for not paying. I just see them carrying the stamp even when a person has not been called to court. I do not know whether this is the procedure. Even these shops I do not know whether they are….(inaudible)... our price control seems to have problems. I do not know whether these furniture shops belong to one person because you will find their prices the same, now a customer has problems in comparing prices because you will hear that Ellerines is still Barnetts and so on and so forth. I think we need price control in that case, if it is just one company. I said that I would not comment at length. Thank you Mr, Chairman. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I stand to add to Kgosi Kgosikwena"s motion in which he has clearly indicated that people in the furniture business rip Batswana off. They have been cheating them for so long that we also fear buying furniture, ever since we bought worn out furniture we do not know how we could go and buy others to replace them because if you go there they will come and take them when you are still struggling to pay. But the main issue is... the major concern is the co-operation between the furniture people and the customers. When they want you to buy from them they will follow you and talk to you with all the persuasion they can manage, just after you have bought, now it becomes a problem they threaten you as you pay. Like Kgosi says, if you miss just one month it is a problem. They will just leave you until they see that now you have paid because their interests rate are also so high, that when you buy something at the end you find that you have paid three or four time the amount. They will just leave you to pay until there is only a small amount left, and then start harassing you so that they may take these things to go and sell them. The way they operate, as I know them, like I usually see them where I stay, when they know that people have gone to work they go to the maids and tell them to open the houses for them to take the furniture. I once stopped some in my ward, people called me and said there are people who are taking some furniture away. I came running and told them that they could not take the furniture in the absence of the people. But they knew very well that these people were working, that they would be at work at that time, so they came to take the furniture so that when the people returned they might find furniture already with them. And I am saying these furniture people have long harmed us, we are appealing as the people"s representatives looking at what has been happening for a long time we are saying this should be looked at. One other area where they harm us is that they buy things in South Africa in Ranks, when they get here they do not consider that the Pula is stronger than the Rand, they would rather even increase over the price in Rand, after converting the figure to Pula just the way it is, we do not know whether there is no one who keeps an eye on this. We as people where we stay, I do not know about those in town... but as for us there we know that when it is written like that we just buy. But we really should have watchdogs who are paid, they should watch over us to ensure that we are not cheated. We do not mean that we should just sit back. I feel that we have problems, they should look at these things and help us with advice. The truth is we have been robbed, and we continue to be robbed, let this be looked into, Minister. Thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, I stand to contribute to Kgosi Sebele"s motion, Mr Chairman, that it is not only in the furniture business. This motion shows worrisome practices by business men. They know what their trump card is, what they intend doing. In two months time when you have missed one, two three months without getting any money to go and pay, this usually happens in the villages where our parents do not have jobs which could pay them regularly, their money is seasonal, either they have sold cattle or sorghum et cetera. You do not sell a cow and an ox everyday, you wait for a bit and then you go and sell it so as to free yourself from debts. You wait at bit for your crops and then go and sell sorghum at the marketing co-operative, they also pay very little. You will then have a problem not knowing what you are going to pay with.. They sell their furniture to the people with the full knowledge that they will confiscate them in the event that you fail to pay, perhaps after paying for six months. 47 After they take them they sell them at a price much higher than the balanced owed to a particular item. That in itself is an unlawful enrichment. Our people need to be protected against such culprits, they must be protected either through provision of knowledge or consumer education information so that they aware of a wolf in a sheep"s skin. This furniture shops you find that if you buy in instalments from them at the end of the day you have paid ten times more than if you could have bought cash. But these companies are everywhere in Botswana. Now Madam Minister, it is either through the consumer education program that you encourage your officials to inform the nation about this shops. I liken their operations to pyramid schemes which have been condemned by the Government. Some of these businesses are foreign to us and we ought to be protected from them otherwise Batswana will continue to be poor. Other problems have been cited by Honourable Members of collection charges which are levied by corrupt legal practitioners. I am saying "very corrupt legal practitioners". When Cash Bazaar or whatever furniture shop summons you for the P600 you owe, that amount is going to double with the rest of the money going to the pocket of the lawyer. Something which could have cost less if the case was taken to the magistrate court, but because they are dealing with someone who does not know anything about law they take advantage of that. I am saying "corrupt legal practitioners", some of them will even not remit the actual amount of money you gave them to pay off your balance with Cash Bazaar only a fraction of it reaches Cash Bazaar. Such things are worrisome because ultimately they leave our people in poverty while others are enriching themselves unlawfully. With those few remarks I support the motion. Thank you. MINISTER OF COMMERCE AND INDUSTRY (MRS SERETSE): Thank you Mr Chairman. Honourable Members in particular Kgosi Sebele I do appreciate this motion you put before us, but before I respond to it in depth let me by way of introduction say a few words. It must be known that there is always an automatic inequality of the contracting parties between furniture shops or any other business enterprise be it a bank or an auto dealer and the customers or people receiving their service. The fact of the matter is that when the dealer and the customer meet, in most cases the seller is always on a higher economic level and understanding than the other contracting party seeking help or service. More often than not in the business practice, whenever the contracting parties are not equal, you are likely to get one of the parties victimised regardless of the type of agreement between them. It is also the case between two married partners where the woman is not working and the man is the sole bread winner, perhaps with some form of education over his partner. When there is a dispute between the two, there is always inequality of contracting parties. So that is the inherent nature of contracts which cannot be gotten rid off by anybody regardless of what laws are put in place, one of the parties is likely to suffer. Secondly business practices are new to all of us, the educated and the uneducated. Generally Batswana are used to the butter system type of business, a bag of maize for a bag of beans. And always the exchange was done instantly and Botswana generally, the concept of owing is foreign to all of us. Thirdly, because of this inequality of contracting partners, it forces you at the receiving end to enter into contracts which may suffer you in the end. Today I quote "educated", unquote, If I am looking for a loan at the bank and I want to do a project, when the bank asks me to sign, I even tell them that it is worthless for me to read the contract because I am the one who wants the money and I want the money so desperately. So whether you are charging me 18 per cent or 25 per cent, if you can give me the money to undertake my project, I am at your mercy. So that is always the problem. Now businesses on the other hand with already a superior understanding, they come there since their motive is to make profits when they have bought something for P100.00, if they can sell it to somebody for P1000.00 all the better, the higher the price the better - that is business. And the profits which they make, whether it is unlawful enrichment or whatever language you can couch it in, that is the main 48 reason why they are in business. And the problem is that it makes all of us vulnerable because the goods that they have we want them, we want to use them either because of social status either because we think these goods are going to benefit us in more than one way. So because of that, these are things which are inherent in a business practice. I take note the motion specifically states furniture shops, but this applies right round. Commercial banks for instance, when you get a mortgage from the bank, the law of the mortgage, you don"t really need to go through a lengthy process, you go through what is called provisional summons which means that a stamp will be given because the contract that you have signed there from already says that given breach of whichever way, of whichever kind, if you have breached one of the fine conditions, it entitles the superior party already to take action. So the law of higher purchase, with your permission Mr Chairman, if I can just quote at Chapter 46:03 of the Laws of Botswana which tend to define high purchase agreed and I quote it, it is part of the definition, it says "high purchase agreement means any agreement whereby goods are sold subject to the condition that the ownership in such goods shall not pass nearly by the transfer of the possession...."and then it goes on. It gives a difference between the high purchase and what they call an instalment sale agreement which is defined to mean any agreement of purchase and sale whereby ownership in the goods sold passes upon delivery. So if you have an instalment sale agreement, ownership passes on delivery. Whereas it says "high purchase" delivery does not constitute ownership. The main cause of the problem in law Mr Chairman about the high purchase agreement is the question of ownership. You have possession but strictly speaking you are not the owner, you become the owner only after you have satisfied those conditions. Which conditions mainly is final payment of the instalment with those high interest as it is said. Even though the Act itself says you should not repossess until you get a court order, but the contract you entered into with the shop is stating otherwise. I went to obtain a sample just at random of a high purchase contract. But I cannot see clearly Mr Chairman, their print is so fine, and of course you just sign and you cannot see this print and it says in essence "that notwithstanding delivering of the goods and the transfer ownership of the goods shall not pass to the purchaser". And the issue and the problem of ownership is the one which complicates this whole case. Even the Act itself having said that no repossession can be effected without a court order, but it goes on to give certain instances that repossess goods may be returned if the outstanding balance which was at issue could be cleared. I would not say it contradicts because the problem is with ownership of the goods. The ownership of the goods cannot flout. They should either belong to A or B. Therefore the furniture shop says it does not pass the ownership before the final settlement of the account. It just borrow you the goods for use pending settlement of the account. The Law even goes further Mr Chairman, to say that when you are staying in a rented premises, the furniture shop is under obligation to inform the owner of the property, and they do not do that. This is because the Law gives the landlord first right of repossession, if the person does not pay rent. So that information is meant for the reason that if the tenant does not pay rent, then the landlord should not repossess even those goods that does not belong to the tenant. Therefore, the Honourable Chairman, this is what makes the difficulty about the high purchase agreement. Honourable members, Kgosi Kalaben talked about the unscrupulous lawyers, that is true. But now, you know that we have Law Society which a client can appeal to if he feels that his lawyer did not deal with him fairly. The equivalent for the Deputy Sheriffs is the Registrar of the High Court, he authorises Deputy sheriffs. It may be true that, sometimes they operate without a valid practising certificate for that year. Now the procedure is that, Deputy Sheriffs must re new their practising certificate after appraisal on whether they have successfully satisfied their job requirements. Kgosi Jackalas talked about ITC. This bureau admits the names of those people who are not considered credit worthy or whatever, As far as I understand Mr Chairman, they are only supposed to be listed if 49 there is a court judgement. So just because you had defaulted a furniture shop, that does not entitle the furniture shop to list you with ITC. Even ITC must not list anyone without a court judgement because furniture shop is hear say, it is your word against my word. That is my understanding. However, having said this that furniture shops operate on a business principle, and it is expensive for them to engage lawyers for debt collection. A customer signs this elaborate agreement with the furniture shop on the terms of payment. There is no furniture shop which is going to repossess because the customer is in arrears of only one month. But the problem is, generally as Batswana, we do not know that it is our right to go to the furniture shop and report that that month you will not be able to pay the instalment and that you are still around, you have not disappeared. Therefore, it is a matter of education. Even if one has a loan with the bank, the principle is the same. Before I held this portfolio, I mean during my youthful days, I used to have accounts with the banks, and when I was not able to pay that month, I would then contact the bank manager, but there is never any Bank Manager who has taken me to task, he would then just enter that information in the ledger book. This just in agreement with Kgosi Kalaben that we should continuously educate our people. One Honourable Member lamented on the problem of prices that business people buy in Rands which is a lower currency, they then make a higher mark up. As the Honourable members know, we no longer have price control. We tried to apply it, it has failed in so many ways and we have just let the forces of demand and supply operate. But if we do not buy at the rate at which we are buying, they will reduce prices, but because we are giving them so much good business this is why their prices keep going up and up because we are giving them good business, so it is the forces of the markets. KGOSI KALABEN: I want to ask the Minister about some other rule in application, especially emanating from the exchange control laws. If goods are imported, obviously they must be marked. Or if they are being sold, the buyers must be given the exchange control difference, because definitely the Pula currency is strong. I have had two instances where a certain garage Mr Chairman, was dealing with my two clients. on the first instance they had correctly quoted the value of the vehicle which they were selling in Rands. But when they gave us the actual invoice for payment, they did not do the revaluation of Pula to Rand. But because my client was eager to get his car and continue with his business, he got the car hence he did not get the advantage of the Pula revaluation. But later on I went to see the Garage"s Accountant who was hesitant. I then contacted the manager with the intention of appealing to Bank of Botswana. Then the manager instructed him to give the client the difference. He wrote us a cheque immediately because in other words it was an infraction of the exchange control regulations which end up getting him into trouble. my clients then got back their money which amounted to P5000.00 each, because those vehicles were expensive. Imagine if these vehicles are sold on a daily basis and the clients are not given that revaluation advantage, the garage end up enriching themselves at the disadvantage of the people. MRS SERETSE: I thank you Mr Chairman. I am not so sure what the requirement of the Law is Mr Chairman. However, firstly one must note and underscore the fact that we no longer have exchange control regulations. Previously we had exchange control regulations, but now in this jurisdiction we do not have exchange control regulation. This is why even as individuals we are allowed to open accounts in foreign currencies if we so choose. I know the car dealers do it, they will quote their prices in Rand and then work the other factors. I think it is because of the returns which they have to make and the sales tax, some rebates or whatever. So I think this why they are specifically doing that, I am not so sure whether the furniture shops also have to require that, but that is something to look at and I will check why we do it in the vehicles and we do not it in furniture shops. It would not only have to be on furniture, it would have to be on the other goods as well, because as you know Mr Chairman, and the Honourable House, 80 per cent of our imports come from South Africa. So Woolworth"s Foods and other supermarkets and all of that, most of their import come from South Africa. 50 But very briefly Kgosi talked about Deputy Sheriffs being charged same as messenger of the court. Like I said, that can be taken up with the Registrar and I believe they would be taken to task. Kgosi Jackalas on ITC, I have already commented on that. On the issue of price control we no longer have it, and also on the question on whether these shops belong to the same person. I think in some way they do, what one sees in the world markets is that as much as government encourage competition policies, but at the end of the day a lot of businesses have found ways to go back to the monopoly situation where they would then be comfortable like you know, OPEC the cartel, they control the oil prices and they call the shots. So what you see, you see mergers of business. Sometimes shareholders, have 20 percent in this business, the others have 20 percent in that business. So it may be true that they are owned by similar shareholders or whatever. But currently we are still working as Ministry on the competition policy, we currently do not have any competition policy. Kgosi Garebakwena on interest. Really interest is part of price control, if you are controlling prices you then control the interest rate, but we do not have price control and therefore we do not control interests. Now whether or not these people are correct to take these goods, I have said already that in the first place they are not correct because they ought to have a court order. But now whether or not they are justified to take the goods when the owner of the goods is not there. As Kgosi said he was called in to help, I do not know. He said sometimes they give you the goods on no deposit terms. There is no business that ought to give you goods without a deposit because otherwise they are not really in business. So if they are serious about their business they cannot. So, when they say we are giving you this goods without deposit right there it should ring a bell, but then goes back to what Kgosi said about education of consumers. We have raised awareness of people about Pyramid Schemes, we are trying, we have made publications in the radio even with the help of Bank of Botswana to warn people against such schemes because firstly they are not legal and secondly a lot of people have lost money and their practising banking business when in fact they are not a bank. In summary therefore with your permission Mr Chairman, according to the Hire Purchase Act Cap. 46:03 repossessions have to be done by Court Order in case of failure by the buyer to pay any instalment due under any agreement. However, in some cases some sellers repossess goods without Court Orders. Under these circumstances Section 13(1) of the Hire Purchase Act states that and I quote "If a seller has as a result of the failure of the buyer to pay any instalment due under any agreement recovered possession otherwise done by Order of the Court of any goods to which an agreement relates the buyer shall where he has himself not terminated the agreement be entitled if he pays all arrears due under the agreement within a period of 21 days after the seller recovered possession of the goods to the return of goods at the sellers place of business or if he has no place of business or if the buyer so requests at the premises in which the goods are kept and to be reinstated in his right under the agreement." In hire purchase contracts buyers are required to sign the agreement stipulating the terms and conditions of the contract they are entering into. Although this agreement vary the common clause in all of them is that ownership remains with the seller until all the amount payable or the full price is paid. Whilst the Ministry will not necessarily condone flouting of the agreement where the consumers" fail aggrieved by the repossession the situation can be monitored by the Consumer Protection and I am happy to report Mr Chairman, that in fact a lot of the cases have come to us and in certain incidences we have been able to successfully persuade the furniture shops to return goods so taken. I thank you. KGOSI SEBELE: Thank you Mr Chairman, let me thank Kgosi Jackalas, Kgosi Garebakwena, and Kgosi Kalaben and even others who have not commented I am quite aware that they do support the motion tabled. I also thank the Minister for her fruitful answer that is informative at the same time. I would be happy if this could be captured well by the media so that it educates the public. Thank you very much. Question put and agreed to. 51 MR CHAIRMAN: We are left with only a minute so the next motion will be tabled tomorrow. There will be cabinet tomorrow in the morning, so this motion will be tabled in the afternoon. ADJOURNMENT The House accordingly adjourned at 4.00 o"clock p.m. until Wednesday 27th September, 2000 at 2.30 o"clock p.m. Wednesday 27th September, 2000 THE HOUSE met at 2.30 o'clock p.m. (CHAIRMAN in the Chair) PRAYERS **** CHAIRMAN'S ANNOUNCEMENT MR CHAIRMAN: We will start today"s business in terms of the Order Paper i.e. with Questions for Oral Answers. I would like to alert the House that the Minister of Education had requested to make a Statement in the House. Immediately after the questions we would allow the Honourable Minister to make a Statement. I believe it will be quite short. QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER MAINTANANCE OF THE POST MASTER'S HOUSE IN CHARLES HILL KGOSI W.T.B. RAMOSWAANE: asked the Minister of Works, Transport and Communications whether he is aware that the Post Master"s house in Charleshill has never been maintained since its construction and therefore it is in a dilapidated condition, if so; the Minister should state when the House will be renovated. MINISTER OF WORKS, TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MR MAGANG): Mr Chairman, I am aware of the bad condition of the Postmaster"s house in Charleshill. The house is part of an on going programme to renovate Postal Services properties generally in the country. The renovation of Postmaster"s house in Charleshill is scheduled to commence before the end of this year because we are still dealing with other Post Offices elsewhere, particularly that the programme was exacerbated by the recent floods and a lot of buildings require maintenance. Thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI RAMOSWANE: Thank Mr Chairman. SECOND PHASE OF NGWAKETSE/BAROLONG TELECOMMUNICATION PROJECT KGOSI BESELE II MONTSHIOA: asked the Minister of Works, Transport and Communications to say how soon the second phase of the Ngwaketse/Barolong Telecommunications Development Project would commence since it was targeted for financial year 2000/2001. MINISTER OF WORKS, TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MR MAGANG): Mr Chairman, the Ngwaketse /Barolong project has recently been given the go ahead by the Government, and Botswana Telecommunications Corporation, BTC has already started the tendering process. The tentative plan is to finalise the scope of works, and advertise the tender in October (next month). Suppliers/bidders briefing will also be during the same month. Site surveys of various villages where the telephones will be connected will be done during the month of November/December, 2000 period and tender will close in February, 2001. Evaluation of tender will be done during the month of February/March and the tender award is set for the end of March 2001 with implementation of the project scheduled to start in June, 2001. Thank you, Mr Chairman. INSPECTIONS CARRIED OUT AFTER DRILLING BOREHOLES 52 KGOSI D.S. TOTO II: asked the Minister of Agriculture to say whether there are regular inspections carried out after drilling boreholes by the suppliers who benefit from government schemes, the Minister should further state whether the equipment supplied to farmers by these suppliers is inspected. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (MR SELOMA): Mr Chairman, the Ministry largely relies on the farmer as the client to ensure that drilling is done to his/her satisfaction. As such once the driller is on site and drilling commences, the farmer is expected to be present to satisfy himself/herself that work is being done properly. Ministry staff will visit the site from time to time to ensure that work is being done and the farmer is satisfied. Once drilling has been completed, the farmer is required to sign the invoice and a report prepared by the Ministry staff to indicate that he/she is satisfied with the work. No payment can be made to the driller unless the farmer has indicated his/her satisfaction. In addition, the driller/contractor is required to produce a borehole completion certificate from the Department of Water Affairs which confirms that the work has been done satisfactorily. The procedure I have outlined also applies for the equipping of boreholes under the programme. Mr Chairman, these measures were put in place to ensure that Government received good value for its money. I however regret to say that these procedures were sometimes not followed due to collusion between some farmers and some unscrupulous drillers. As a result, the Ministry has decided to suspend the programme while a comprehensive review is being undertaken. Thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you Mr Chairman. I would like to ask the Minister whether a farmer who does not have proper knowledge in borehole drilling is suppose to monitor whether the contracted driller is doing a good job? Another question is whether the Minister is aware that on several occasions, the drillers claim money from the Government with the pretex that they did a certain job? Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR SELOMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I cannot refute what Kgosi Toto has said. Usually the farmer and the driller connive to cheat Government. The farmer is expected to be there all the time during drilling and the officials from the Ministry just come to do some inspection work. I cannot refute that some of the things have been done improperly. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI KALABEN): You mentioned that Government wants to be sure that it receives value for its money. How does Government ensure that it receives value for its money if he will just rely on a layman who should always be present to monitor the drilling. I would have assumed that things that go into drilling relate not only to the specifications of drilling accepted by Government, things like after drilling there should be an independent tester, to ensure that there is water, this can be the only way Government can receive value for its money. Now I am asking whether it is not a contradiction term. MR SELOMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Like I said, the farmer is supposed to be present during drilling. The department staff do regular inspection and on completion a certificate is issues. I went on to clarify that we are aware of some farmers conniving with drillers thus cheating Government. There is need during the reviewing of this subsidy since it has in the meantime been suspended. I take it that all the suggestions by the Honourable Members can be considered. Thank you, Mr Chairman. PROCEDURES FOR CLAIMING FROM THE MOTOR VEHICLE ACCIDENT FUND KGOSI D.S. TOTO II: asked the Minister of Finance and Development Planning whether in view of the fact that most Batswana are not conversant with procedures for claiming from the Motor Vehicle Accident Fund he would explain these procedures to the public; the Minister should further state why victims of an accident caused by tyre burst are not covered by the Fund. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR SEBETELA): Mr Chairman, the procedure for submitting claims is laid down under Section 19 of the MVA Fund Act as follows: 53 a) The Claimant shall complete the prescribed Claiming Form A and shall include medical reports, particulars of the accident (police statements, police report and sketch-plan and the details of the injury or death giving rise to the claim; b) The Claim Form shall be hand delivered or sent by registered mail to the Fund. If hand delivered, the Fund will acknowledge receipt thereof in writing; c) After receiving the claim, the Fund may require the Claimant (bygiving him seven days notice) to be medically examined by a doctor of its choice, or subject the claim to further investigations, or request the Claimant for any other information that it may require. Mr Chairman, all claims must be submitted within two years from the date of injury if the Claimant is an adult; and two years after attaining majority in the case of minors, failing which the claim becomes legally invalid. Mr Chairman, for the past three years, the Fund has embarked on an aggressive education campaign on its role and mission, which included addressing kgotla meetings, full council boards, schools, hospitals, Police, large organizations and other members of the public. It has also conducted specialised education programmes for the Police and hospital personnel to familiarise them with the claiming procedures. Pamphlets in both English and Setswana explaining procedure for claiming from the Fund are circulated to these institutions and members of the public have access to these pamphlets. The rationale for this approach is that all accident victims invariably come into contact with the police and hospital personnel who will be in a position to advise them accordingly. These pamphlets are also available to members of the public at the various offices of the Fund and at some designated Post Offices. Mr Chairman, it must be realised that Botswana is a vast country. While every effort is being made to educate each and every member of the public, it should be recognised that the process will take time. For that reason, the emphasis for now is on ensuring that every Motswana who has been involved in or affected by a road traffic accident has access to the required information. Mr Chairman, as regards to the issue of tire burst, Section 12 of the Motor Vehicle Accident Fund Act provides that the Fund will only pay compensation if the accident was caused by the negligence of the driver or owner of the vehicle involved. In all instances where a claim is submitted, the Fund will look into the circumstances of the case to determine if any fault can be attributed to the driver. If an accident occurs through no fault of the driver, the Fund is prohibited by law from paying any compensation, regardless of what the circumstances of the accident are. For that reason, claims arising from accidents involving tyre bursts have been declined if no fault could be attributed to the driver. However, if the claimant can prove that the tyre burst occurred as a result of fault on the part of the driver or owner such as over inflation, worn tyres or overloading, the Fund could be liable to pay compensation to the passengers. It is important to note that accidents involving tyre bursts are not the only ones that are excluded from compensation. The determining factor in payment of compensation is whether there was fault on the part of the driver or owner of the vehicle involved in an accident. Thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: In the last session, there was a motion which talked Motor Vehicle Insurance Fund to ensure that there was simplification of claims. The motion was discussed at length, the Minister explained at length, emanating from this House. Maybe it is e more or less a repetition of what was indicated in this Honourable House through a motion. Those points discussed by the Minister did surface in the response of the Minister at that time. He might have also overlooked the fact that he came here to take part in that motion. KGOSI SEBELE I: Thank you Mr. Chairman. That is the truth, but one can ask the Minister that, regarding the education of the nation, could the Fund give us the statistical report of the places in which they have educated the people? Because it still appears that most people are not properly informed. And we would also like to know the length of time it takes one to receive a claim, and how and when it is supposed to be done. Thank you Mr. Chairman. 54 MR CHAIRMAN: I just want to remind the Members of the House that those issues were very adequately answered by the Minister. I recall Kgosi Jakalas mention that he was assisted someone at his Kgotla to fill in the forms for the lawyers. Let us restrict ourselves, Honourable Members, and not discuss this issue at length because it has been discussed in this Honourable House. HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are keeping us at bay Mr. Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: I mean that anyone who wants to make a follow up should know that this is what I am ruling now. MR SEBETELA: Sir, I wouldn"t know the number of times the MVA Fund has gone out to the people, but all that I know is that the Members of Parliament were issued with Setswana and english literature. In my constituency, from Radisele to Gojwane, I explained fully from one Kgotla to another and even left the literature so that the people can read for themselves. They have even talked about it in the radio, more especially the one about the duration , that it is two years. If you are 18, you are given two years so that you can submit your claim. The reason I am responding this way is because of the way the question was asked, that what is done in the event of a tyre burst. In MVA, it is really not about the type of accident, but whether it was the driver"s fault or not. If the driver is not at fault when the steering wheel just broke whilst he was driving, then nothing much can take place. INCLUSION OF EQUIPING OF BOREHOLES INTO THE PACKAGE OF WATER DEVELOPMENT SCHEME KGOSI D. S. TOTO II: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he would consider including equipping of boreholes into the packages of water development scheme so that individuals and syndicates can benefit from it since most farmers are not able to equip boreholes after drilling them. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (MR SELOMA): Mr Chairman, the Water Development Programme was designed to assist farmers to develop water sources by meeting part of their costs. The objective was to increase water sources so as to reduce overstocking in the communal areas. The programme was not designed to meet the total costs of farmers. As such, individuals qualify to be assisted only with drilling costs. The grant being 60 percent for individuals owning more than 60 but less than 200 cattle and 40 percent for those owning more than two hundred cattle. With regard to syndicates, they can be assisted to either drill or equip a borehole but not both. The choice is theirs. It should be noted that the provision of water for livestock development is the responsibility of the farmer. Government"s role is to assist. Mr Chairman, having said that, I would like to inform the Honourable House that we are in the process of reviewing all assistance programmes to ensure that they are properly targeted to those who need them and can use them efficiently. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: In answer to Question 7 which you say you are reviewing, have you not stopped it while you are still investigating? MR SELOMA: We have stopped it Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: All of them? MR SELOMA: Yes Sir, all the assistance programmes so that we can examine all of them. MR CHAIRMAN: Do you have a target date for the review process and to resuscitate? MR SELOMA: We do not have a target date. 55 KGOSI TOTO II: I would like to ask the Minister that, if these aids could be given to every farmer at once, and do not they realise that they are inconveniencing some farmers who could opt for a well through a subsidised programme, which could last up to three to four years, and the capital used to purchase the equipment being 40 or 60 percent from government. That is why I am saying the Minister was not aware of the fact that this may inconvenience some farmers and that the aid may be of no use since the well might just be a just a white elephant after it has been dug. Let me just ask another question that, why does it seem as if all the programmes have been stopped because they are being examined? We take it that in a way it is going to assist Batswana to move forward in agriculture, will that be possible Honourable Minister. MR SELOMA: Thank you Mr. Chairman. These are the problems we are faced with, that arrangements and agreements were made for programmes to be marketed. However it appears that they are not applied as agreed. That is why we were forced to stop and examine them again. It will unfortunately result in the farmers not receiving aid from us. It is not possible because the way the arrangement is, it was designed to assist in that way. Thank you Mr. Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Mr Minister, even though it is so much related to this question, it has come out from what you were just saying here. Which of your programmes have been stopped, for the benefit of Magosi who sometimes inform their people about them? I know that maybe you have not taken an exercise to compile these programmes, but can you please list the ones you can recall so that we can all be aware. MR SELOMA: Mr. Chairman, sometimes when one provides an answer to this Honourable House, you do not want to make assumptions because I take it that the Honourable Members ask their questions seriously. I think it would be better if you could list them down first. Thank you Mr. Chairman. KOLE AND NOJANE BOREHOLES KGOSI RAMOSWAANE: asked the Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water Affairs when drilled boreholes in Kole and Nojane would be operational. MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND WATER AFFAIRS (MR MOKGOTHU): Mr Chairman, mobilisation work for equipping the Kole boreholes commenced on the 25th September, 2000. Since the required equipment is available, it is envisaged that the connection and reticulation work will also be carried out timeously and the project should be completed by end of October, 2000. I have also been informed that the Nojane boreholes were equipped in June, 1999 and are operational. The two boreholes produce 10 and 20 cubic litres per hour respectively. I am informed that the yields are adequate for the village whatever requirements. Thank you. KGOSI RAMOSWAANE: Mr Chairman, is the Minister aware that the Water Affairs department technicians have long placed the materials at the two boreholes in Kole and one in Nojane without any progress being done? MR MOKGOTHU: Mr Chairman, I am not aware that there is no progress but that can be investigated. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, when we started our debates this morning, I did indicate that there would be some departure from today"s order paper. I had agreed that the Minister of Education would give a statement before we proceed to the motions. STATEMENT PLACEMENT OF SCHOOL LEAVERS IN TERTIARY EDUCATION 56 MINISTER OF EDUCATION (MR KGOROBA): I have been requested by our local UNESCO office that I should pass these UN documents to chiefs, before I make a statement on placement of students. The next ten years will be called years of Culture of Peace and Non-Violence. This era will be celebrated internationally. Our Ministry has been charged with the responsibility to brief people about this United Nations resolution. The UN office, because of the lack of time requested our Ministry to inform the chiefs accordingly. Hence I will take a few minutes to convey this message. The thought is although there is peace in this country, there are never the less events of concern such rapes, murders suicides. These events indicate lack of calm in the country. I shall leave the documents with the distinguished chiefs to read. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Minister. The only observation is that Sections 77, 78, 79 have the potential to break the peace. MR KGOROBA: I do not know because I am not a chief and can not say peace will be disturbed. Mr Chairman, the Ministry of Education wishes to brief the chiefs about steps being taken to place Form V students in centres of learning, as this is of concern to many Batswana. For the first time we have Form V school leavers from the years 1998 and 1999 i.e. two years. These students number 17 549 and most passed with first, second and third classes. Others obtain a GCE certificate, members are aware of. In the past we have been able to place students yearly and not this huge number. In 1998 the number was 6 500 and now this number has been increased by 10 000 for 1999. Yearly we have been able to place students to the tune of over 5 000. In 1999, for example, 5 1313 students were placed at our University, Serowe and Lobatse colleges of Education, IHS etceteras. Because of the huge number of 17 000 we shall experience problems in placing all these students. We requested our institutions to increase the intake. However, due to lack of accommodation the extra numbers taken were low. Molepolole College of Education increased their intake by 500 only, and the other three colleges increased by 300. Three hundred out of 17 000 created a problem. The University increased the intake by 4 000. This was indeed squeezing the situation resulting in certain building projects being suspended. At the beginning of admissions, the University took 3 500 which later increased to 3 700 although not all the students have arrived. Only 3 414 had arrived. Nobody knows why these students delayed to arrive. Possibly some were teachers still requesting leave of absence to study. In our efforts we found places for 2 710 students and 5 000 have still to be placed. We hope to find places for 3 200 students in neighbouring countries like South Africa, Lesotho, Swaziland, Namibia and a small number in Zimbabwe for studies in forestry. Countries like Tanzania, Malawi and others will come to our aid. We also managed to secure places abroad at countries like Australia, Malaysia, Canada, United States and the United Kingdom. These countries have been taking our students all along. We are not able to place big numbers in some of these countries because it is extremely costly. We have to check the yearly cost of a student in each country. When we place a student locally the average cost is P10 000 per annum. In Zimbabwe the average cost is P18 000, South Africa P41 000, Australia 89 797. Australia is selected because most of students go for medicine a scarce profession in this country. In the United Kingdom, the average is P165 000. United State the figure is P168 000. Honourable Chiefs please note that because the costs are high abroad, we can not send big numbers although places could be secured. We therefore, go for neighbouring states because students are near to their parents. We were lucky to find places in the Caribbean Islands like Jamaica, Barbados, Bahamas recently visited by the President. Although these islands have small populations their standard of education is very high. They have old established centres of high learning. We have been blessed in getting a few placements in different faculties for our children. For example, most of our students will read medicine 57 in those countries. Some will do Economics, Business Administration, Accounting, Creative Arts, Natural Sciences, Law, MBA, Engineering and Hotel and Tourism. We are happy that these are in line with sectors dealing with manpower development. We got about a little more than 600 places, or if I am not wrong, 660. We are pleased to say that after this struggle, we will manage to get a place for every child who has got a First Class and Second Class passes at Cambridge School Examinations. This exercise is not yet finished. We have been talking with the University of North West in Mafikeng, and they have promised us a few places. This is the information that I wanted to give to the parents as there have been doubts whether their children will get places in the university. We are now in the process of talking to the students themselves at the National Stadium, to get to know which courses they are interested in, as I have already mentioned a few faculties. Some of the people from the said universities are in Botswana, so that they get to know the type of people we are talking about, and to interview them if necessary. The only problem we are facing is that the South African Metric is a bit higher than ours here, so that when we send our student to South Africa, they have to go for what they call "a bridging year" before they start their degree programme. Those who have undergone the A Level will go straight into the programme. There are about 3000 students who are expected to go to university. And because they are still very young, instead of roaming the streets they can undergo this bridging year programme without any problem and continue the following year with their degree programme. The only problem we are facing now is that students who have already been placed in our university now want to go outside the country. They claim that they were not awarded scholarship for the courses they had chosen, and now that those are offered outside, they feel they have the right to leave and join those universities. They come to the Stadium to say they have not been placed, only to find out that they are already in our university and we turn them away because we want to deal with those students who have not been placed. Some of the students say they are willing to wait for the next year intake, they would rather stay idle for this year. I wonder what has got into their minds lately, but we are trying to discourage that attitude. Honourable Members will realise that this exercise has put us in a very tight corner. We are going to dispense money to universities outside Botswana. It incumbent upon us to assess the situation which our country is in. There are two options, whether our university which has a population of 10,000, can be expanded now so that by the year 2006 to 2010 we could be in a position to take about 15,000 students. This could enable us to send very few student outside the country. The other point is that there was plan to build a second university, but this was postponed to a later time, but having experienced problems as I have already informed this Honourable House, we might revisit it and see if it is possible to speed up the establishment of a second university in order to cater for our children in the not too distant future. Mr Chairman, that is all that I wanted to put before this Honourable House. I was trying to answer questions that are being asked all over the country about the concern that parents have about their children. The problems that have been created by the termination of Tirelo Setshaba, I think is all under control and what we are simply saying is that the nation should not panic, there is no need for panic. Government has taken the responsibility of finding places for these children. And we have been fortunate to find quite a number of places and still are in the process of finding more. That is all that I had to say Mr Chairman. I thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, we have been listening to a very important presentation by the Minister. Having said that, I wish to explain the rules and regulations to you. In terms of the rules and regulations of this House, after the Minister of Education has presented a statement, Members are allowed to ask short questions for the purpose of elucidating what he has been saying. - Just short questions, not statements. So, on that score, I will allow Honourable Members to do so. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Let me thank the Honourable Minister for . . . (laughter) . . . 58 MR CHAIRMAN: I do not mind you thanking the Minister. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: In thanking the Minister, I would like him to tell us about the budget. He should also tell us how much money he is talking about in terms of a year, where he got it from, how else has he been assisted for him to be able to come up with such a decision. KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you Mr Chairman. I would like to ask the Minister if it is true that you are only considering those with aggregate of 28 and less. KGOSI SEBELE I: Thank you Mr Chairman. You mentioned how much other countries are going to charge but I did not get that of Malaysia. Secondly, are these countries that we are negotiating with, not going to make HIV/AIDS test a requirement for students to enrol with their universities. KGOSI LINCHWE: I would like to know if there are foreigners who want places in our university, and how many can we accommodate from other countries such as Zimbabwe or Nigeria. As you said that people are worried, we are worried as well because we find that there are student from outside who are studying in our university. But you could just state how many of those we can be able to accommodate. Thank you Sir. MR KGOROBA: Mr Chairman, I will start with the one about funds. I left it deliberately because there are still negotiations going on about the subject matter. The numbers that we are talking about also we are not certain about but as I said representatives from the North West University have been here last week, it looks like they will absorb a large number of our students. I was only trying to give you an average figure of what we will be paying in the said universities. If for instance we were to send about 1,000 or 2,000 students to South Africa, we have to multiply that by P41,000. This means we are going to spend a lot of money, but to give you a rough idea of what will be our expenditure will be about P400 million or more. I think Tirelo Setshaba used the same amount last year, if I am not wrong. I know they have in the past been using about P360 million a year. We are not very far from that figure, but we cannot give the exact figure because we are still working on it. The second question from Kgosi Toto about the aggregate that we are dealing with at the moment, it is 28. We started at 10, who were taken in our university, but the university had already taken 8 and 9. Some students with the aggregate of 10 were not placed, maybe because the courses they had chosen were already full, as most of them wanted science based co. But as I say, we have managed to go up and we are now at 28. We shall be governed by the number of available places. Students are offered places based on their aggregates, so this will safeguard against favouritism where students with aggregate of 35 could be taken leaving out those with 15. Depending on availability of places, this week we might go up to 30 or even 32. Kgosi Sebele, I did not include prices charged by Malaysia. I cited as example only fifteen countries. I only took the most expensive and the less expensive countries. The following is a list of prices per country: Malaysia - P49000 South Africa - P41000 Tanzania - P45000 Swaziland - P20000 Kenya - P67000 Norway - P55000 Ireland - P170,000 Ireland is the highest. Canada - P113000 Australia -P90000 and so on and so forth. I only wanted to show you what expenses we encounter when sending students abroad Honourable Members. 59 The Honourable Member also wanted to know about AIDS. Our government"s policy is not to discriminate against students by testing them for AIDS before they are admitted at the University. We cherish this policy because it does not subjugate our students. However, sometimes we are compelled to take our students for a test to comply with the requirements of certain Universities abroad, because if we don"t do that, we won"t be able to send them to such Universities as a result, we end up testing them in order to secure their places abroad because the local University does not offer certain courses. Botswana government does not put too much pressure on this test because this is a very sensitive matter. For example what will happen to a student who had tested positive and is not granted a place at the University and shortly the vaccine is discovered. This would be a very devastating situation indeed. The Honourable Member also wanted to know about foreign students at our University. There is an exchange program run by these universities to make sure students from different countries integrate. World-wide there is 10% intake for foreign students. This has not been a problem so far in our case because our students also enjoy the same privilege elsewhere. I think I have attempted all the questions. Thank you Mr. Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Can I ask a question, is just a concern regarding the safety of our students especially in countries like South Africa. It is a well known fact that South Africa is prone to boycotts, we do not want to encounter a situation where one day our students would be harassed on the pretext that they have taken up all the places for the South African students. I find it very difficult to rule out this possibility, I am not saying we should not send our students there, my main concern is whether this issue of security has been taken into consideration. Another question regards the issue of "placement". It seems to me that it is a new thing. We have never heard of it before. What were your predecessor doing since the disband of Tirelo Setshaba? I do not want you to come around and say I am blaming my colleagues, I am only sympathisng with you. These people should take the blame because they knew all along that there is going to be disbandment of Tirelo Sechaba. We are not at all happy about the crisis that is taking place at the moment. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR KGOROBA: No, let me explain something Honourable Member because otherwise it will give a wrong impression. My predecessors played their role. What we are doing at the moment is to publish a report. We are publishing a report on what has been done. If I can give statistics, 1046 has already been done. KGOSI KALABEN: While you are still there Honourable Minister, this issue is about establishment of additional institutions in Botswana like the second University and expansion of colleges. But nothing has been done, our argument is along those basis. MR KGOROBA: The statistics I have just given indicate that something has been done, money has been allocated though not enough to cater for all the students. When we took office, we carried on from where our colleagues left off because this is an on going thing. When you take up a new office and you find that everything is just a mess, you take the responsibility. At this stage I can say we have come to the end of the exercise and the report shall follow. About the delayed construction of additional building at the University, I have explained that this was caused by lack of intake capacity . The bulk of the job has been done by my predecessors. I just wanted to make this clear Honourable Member that the spade work had been done, ours was just to put the finishing touches. Another issue concerns the safety of our students at foreign universities that, they might be harassed by their counterparts on the pretext that they have taken all the spaces? Botswana is blessed with free education, so all these students, their parents do not even pay for the bus fare say to South Africa and we even give them pocket money. We manage to get our students places because our government pays school fees for them while their counterparts have to pay for themselves. Boycotts are all over. We 60 have tried to avoid other places such as Fort- Hare because boycotts are very common there. Only a few students have been sent to this university but the majority have been sent to other universities where their lives will be secured. Some students have been sent to Midrand in Johannesburg, we have so many spaces there. Our students are much comfortable at this college because they have apartments next to the college. Of course some students at other universities travel a long distance which expose them to great danger of being attacked by criminals. But we are trying our level best as far as this area is concerned. We are also intending to empower the student placement office with adequate manpower as well as have representatives to watch over our students abroad on a daily basis because most of them are between the ages of 18-19 years, they are still young . I do not know whether I have answered all your questions. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, the Minister has answered all your questions. We shall continue with the Order Paper. We thank the Minister for the very informative talk he has made in the House. STRENGTHENING THE AUTONOMY OF THE COUNCILS MOTION (Resumed Debate) MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Kgosi Kalaben, I thought we agreed that we will ask officials from Attorney General"s Chambers to come and help us with this motion. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, the Minister asked for an adjournment because there was some confusion regarding the interpretation of the law although we do not seek to interpret the law. We were only saying our understanding of the law was that, amongst other laws for the benefit of the attorney, I am sorry because she does not understand Setswana. For your benefit, yesterday the Minister moved for the adjournment of the House, so that you could come in and give us your opinion on the provisions of the Constitution. What has actually transpired was that I had indicated that councils need to be strengthened by allowing them to increase their revenue capacity from other sources. As you will be aware, in terms of the Local Government District Councils, Chapter 40:01 Section 42, with your permission, Mr Chairman, I would like to read all, not only a portion. It says here; "a) Revenues of the council shall consist of such local government tax, as the council is authorised by law to collect from the inhabitants of the area in respect of which licence has been established. b) Such rates as the council is authorised by law to impose. c) Rents from property owned and administered by council. d) All monies derived from licences or permits issued by the council and all taxes dues, fees imposed under lawful authority by the council. c) Interest on investments. f) Such royalties as may by law be payable or receivable by the council. g) Donations, contributions, endowments. h) Reimbursements. i) Such grants as the government may make to the council. j) Any other money which may be law be paid to or received by council." My argument, which sparked the question of you coming to help us is centred around "(f) such royalties as may by law be payable or receivable by the council." Mr Chairman, I had recourse to the provisions of the constitution and this provision says relating to expropriation of property or the one that deals with protection of property of Section 8. Section 8 says "No property of any description shall be compulsorily taken possession of and no interest in or right over property of any description shall be compulsorily acquired except where the following conditions are satisfied. That is to say we went through this provision whereas taking ...(inaudible)...that is to say and I said here sub-section 3 of this section shall begin to be satisfied if in relation to any law applicable to the taking of possession of minerals or the acquisition of the rights to minerals, if that law makes provision for payment at reasonable intervals of adequate royalties. One would have to know the history of Botswana in order to apply this section. 61 I think there is some provision where the mineral rights, there is some provision in some law, whether it is the Mineral Act or what, which vested the right to diamond or interests in diamond in districts in the Central Government. I think as the Minister explained, to ensure equitable distribution of the wealth of Batswana. Now, my contention was, reading this section with the Local Government provisions at 41(f), the councils should also be allowed, or should be given just a speck of royalty from diamonds, where they are mined. In other words, Central District Council, they mined diamond at Orapa and Letlhakane. These people in terms of this law are entitled to some royalties accruing from the diamonds. Bangwaketse, who have also allowed the rights, not only those who have existing mines, but even where there is potential for mining. If at one stage minerals are found and there is a need to pay royalties, not only to Central Government, but to these councils, because my interpretation is that they have been deprived of the rights to minerals and the law which deprived them the right to the minerals in their areas must have made a provision for payment at reasonable intervals of adequate royalties. This is my contention. And it is not a question that we have to write home about sitting here discussing it and showing our disagreements on, because it was just one of those items where I said the council could derive revenue as it is empowered in terms of Local Government District Councils Act. That is my contention and I believe the different contention is that this section is applicable only to individuals who have some houses or some farm somewhere else in the country. I was saying, no it does not look like it is only confined to individuals. Even if one were to adverse to the Interpretations Act. The Interpretations Act defines the word "any person" to mean even corporations who are not necessarily individuals, a corporation, even private limited liability companies. You cannot say because it is not an individual it is not a person, it is a natural person, but the definition of person includes everybody including corporations and unincorporated organisations. I think that is the point of difference. HONOURABLE MEMBER: I do not know whether the Attorney General"s representative is now in the picture. ATTORNEY GENERAL'S REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. This is a difficult task before me. I will start off by dealing with the question of whether the council as a statutory body qualifies to be regarded as a person that is entitled to protection under the provisions of the constitution that provides for the Bill of Rights. In my understanding ... KGOSI KALABEN: Let me just make a clarification here. We did not say the council itself is entitled to protection. We are saying the tribes who have lost the right to minerals are the ones who are entitled to protection and if they have lost, they must be adequately be compensated and then that compensation in the form of royalties will go to their council. That is what we are saying. ATTORNEY GENERAL'S REPRESENTATIVE: I understood the claim being made as being made under the council, that royalties had to be paid to the council so that in that the people living in these different areas may be able to benefit from the royalties. I would like to dwell on the question that a council or the councils that have been created all over Botswana cannot be regarded as having full legal personality such as an individual for example or a company incorporated under the Companies Act. A company incorporated under the Companies Act has wide powers as compared to councils. The councils are creatures of statute created by an act of Parliament being provided with certain powers under the act that creates them, and in this case it is the Local Government District Council Act. The Local Government District Act has not given the council such wide powers as to cause them to enjoy a full legal personality as would be the case for instance as a company incorporated under the Companies Act. Therefore it would be difficult, in my view for a council to be able to insist that it be entitled to the protection under the Bill of Rights or under Section 8 of the Constitution. If the tribe or the people that are aggrieved or feel that they have been denied royalties in the different areas wish to 62 get together and make a stand, they can contest their case as individuals, as a tribe or as a group, but not under the council. If they were to do so considering the provision that we have just read under Section 8(3) of the Constitution, it is possible that they may be able to succeed that the court may make a ruling on their behalf. But we also have to take into consideration the fact that our late President Sir Seretse Khama did on behalf of the Republic of Botswana enter into an Agreement with the Chiefs and Tribes of Botswana so as to transfer all the rights, title and interests in minerals in each tribal territory to the Republic of Botswana. This was in accordance with the First Schedule of the Mineral Rights and try ... KGOSI TAWANA II: Just to clarify, is that all the times, because I have looked I have not found that Agreement involved in the Batawana. I know all the other tribes they signed.... MR CHAIRMAN: I thought she said he went into Agreement with Chiefs of all tribal areas. Did you say that. A.G.'S CHAMBERS REPRESENTATIVE: Yes. KGOSI TAWANA II: I have been to the archives, I have been everywhere. MR CHAIRMAN: May be they have a copy of that, therefore Kgosi you have to visit the Attorney General"s Chambers. KGOSI SEBELE I: I am not very much clear about that but I am told Chief Neil of Bakwena represented all the paramount chiefs and appended his signature, whether that was correct or not I cannot say.... KGOSI TAWANA II: No, just to clarify, I know that the chiefs individually signed, I heard this morning that Chief Sechele signed on behalf of everybody. But what I know and what I have found is the Agreement that all the chiefs signed, but Chief Letsholathebe was late for the meeting, he did not sign. MR CHAIRMAN: I am sorry Madam, I think our time is up we will have to stop there, we will resume the debate tomorrow at 2.30 p.m. Let me make an annoucement Honourable Members. There shall be a Meeting of the Balopi Commission tomorrow at 9.00 o"clock and then normal business of the House will resume at 2.30 after lunch. ADJOURNMENT The house accordingly adjourned at 4.00 o"clock pm until Friday 29th September,2000 at 9.30 o"clock p.m. Friday 29th September, 2000 THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. (THE CHAIRMAN in the Chair) PRAYERS **** QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER REVIEWING SECURITY REQUIRED FOR LOAN APPLICANTS FROM NDB KGOSI D. S. TOTO II: asked the Minister of Finance and Development Planning whether he will consider reviewing security required when one applies for a loan from the National Development Bank, since it is not acceptable to use a house or a business without a title deed. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR SEBETELA): Mr Chairman, the use of residential or business premises is acceptable security, only if it has a title deed. There is no other possibility for taking immovable security without a title deed. 63 The title deed establishes the ownership and use rights and stipulates the size and location of the property. In order for the property to have a title deed, it must be surveyed by a competent authority and a lease registered with the Registrar of Deeds. Mr Chairman, apart from real estate, the bank takes movable assets such as machinery, equipment, motor vehicles, cattle etc as security. Mr Chairman, the bank security requirements are 1:1 on Forced Sale Value for immovable assets and 1:4 on Forced Sale Value on immovable assets. Securities are required to ensure that the bank operates on a sound commercial basis in line with its statutes. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: 1:1, what does that mean Minister? MR SEBETELA: It means equality. MR CHAIRMAN: So if a house is P100,000 it means it secures P100,000? MR SEBETELA: Yes, Mr Chairman. KGOSI TOTO: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I just want to ask the Minister if movable properties like livestock or cattle can be used as security, if so how does the bank value the cattle to a small amount of P400, is this system fair? What if one buys 20 cattle, does that mean he has to secure about 100 cattle, is it reasonable? MR SEBETELA: Thank you Mr. Chairman. In order for NDB to give you cattle, it will all depend on the type of care necessary. If the cattle graze where the price goes up to P200, and during the rainy season they can go up to P800 or P1,200, what NDB does is to try to estimate the average price possible. But if your cattle graze in a fenced area and that you check on them regularly, the scale used will differ. I know that you will agree with NDB because even though we want to promote businesses in Botswana, we have to be very careful and also comply with the conditions of obtaining a business and not providing a superficial one. They have to learn business skills and be able to contribute to the economy of Botswana. Thank you Mr. Chairman. KGOSI SEBELE I: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Let me take this opportunity to ask the Minister if he might know what delays Surveys and Lands to arrange for a title deed? because that is where the delay is. Sometimes it takes about six to 12 months to change from customary to common law. I know that it might be irrelevant to you. MR SEBETELA: Honourable Members, I do not know why it takes such a long time, but in my constituency I know that it is because we fail to give plots and registration. There are people called technical officers, who do the surveying and then take it to the department of Land Use Planning, which has no staff. You will find that there is land but the people who are supposed to allocate are not there. The only people who might know why it takes such a long time are those of the department of Lands and Housing. The other thing that people should know is that, in order to use your house or farm as security, it has to be registered. Most of the time you find that we only become aware of this fact only when we are at the NDB offices, which will delay your forms to be processed since you will have to go to the land board and apply for a title deed. Those are some of the things which delay the whole process. KGOSI SEBELE I: Thank you Mr Chairman. Usually if a person is aware, and has started off well with the land board, demarcations having been done, and the person has paid the necessary fees, and then he has to go to Surveys and Lands, where it usually takes a long time to take some time. If the house is a customary grant, can one secure a loan against it, or do you have to change it to common law?. The process is such that, having completed the local level with the land board, it has to go to Surveys and Lands to be surveyed. 64 MR CHAIRMAN: Those who survey are short staffed. KGOSI KALABEN: Although I should be asking a supplementary, I think this information is very vital, and the Honourable Members have to be aware. If it were possible Honourable Seretse would be able to assist us because she is an attorney. What happens as Kgosi Sebele has said, if you want to register a title deed over property in the tribal land area, all you have to do is to get a surveyor to produce a cadastral survey diagram. Then you get a lease and take it to be registered. Once they have been registered, maybe that is where the delay is, but it is just the process of registering. After registration at Surveys and Lands, you uplift those documents to correct the documentation for registration of a title deed. While I am still on the floor Mr Chairman, maybe I can follow up this question of security. Quite recently a law that said the government will provide some security for Batswana business people when dealing with commercial banks, so Batswana will be relieved from the necessity to provide security, was passed. I just wanted to know if this apply also to NDB? If it does not, why is that so? MR SEBETELA: The Government"s credit guarantee scheme applies to all commercial banks, including NDB and BBS as well. I hope our Chiefs are aware that there is a maximum cap of a quarter of a million Pula. Even the quarter of a million Pula, you are only assisted to the tune of 60 percent of a quarter of million Pula, in which case the other 40 percent you would have to come up with other forms of security. This is where your own property would come in. And also in the event that your total investment for the project is above a quarter of a million, about half a million, which means government will only be guaranteeing 60 percent of P250,000, you still have to go out to secure 40 percent of the P250,000 plus the excess above a quarter of a million Pula. Thank you. KGOSI MOTHIBE: Mr Chairman, my colleague was concerned with the question of reviewing the security required for NDB. I just would like to ask the Minister that, if one has 30 cattle and has no house, is it possible to use the cattle to secure the loan? At first it was possible, whereby NDB was able to grant your cattle, using them as security as you value them. That is why we ask the Minister when he intends to review or revisit this issue, that cattle can be used for security as a movable property. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR SEBETELA: Mr Chairman, in my answer I did indicate that cattle and other movable property such as machinery and equipment are also being accepted by NDB as security. But the issue of reviewing title deed requirements, as I indicated in my answer, is something that we are finding difficult to do. The reason is that, even as we assist Batswana in the various schemes that we have, we must be careful not to create superficial business environment for them. They must be assisted in the realistic competitive global market in which they have to operate, and the realistic commercial markets and financial markets in which we operate demand title deeds. In addition as you know, we have embarked on the process of privatisation, where we would want our parastatals and other government owned organisations to operate purely along commercial lines. Our Ministry is currently organising the issue of a service and economic policy, this must be done in the context of an existing business environment. So, that when we later pull out be it five or ten years, our citizens would already be operating in a realistic business environment. This is why it would be impossible for title deeds to be removed as requirements for NDB for security. I thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI TOTO II: Would the Minister explain to this Honourable House that of the banks that exist in Botswana such as the National Development Bank and commercial banks, which one is of beneficial to Batswana? MR SEBETELA: This is a very difficult question because it is not easy to determine what is meant by benefits to a citizen. NDB"s terms, even in terms of the application procedure, offers fixed interest rates. They also will give you a fixed term. So, at the end of the day, it is up to a Motswana entrepreneur to look at his or her investment proposal, to see what the commercial banks are offering or what NDB is offering. It is up to the entrepreneur who is seeking financial assistance to see how the 65 banks would do it. As you know 50 per cent has to come from one"s coffers and the other 50 per cent has to be raised from the financial markets. In this case one has to choose the Bank which can benefit him more than the other. So, if you are starting a dry cleaning business, it is very difficult for me to say, whether you would prefer NDB or Barclays Bank. I think it is also as you know with banks, it is a question of relationships. If you would have had a very good relationship with Standard Bank when running your butchery, it may well be that when you sit with the Branch Manager, they would give you something higher than what NDB would give you. So, the conditions of loans is really about business relationships. I am unable to say Commercial banks versus NDB, which of the two serve Batswana better. The decision is a business one, depending on your experience with the two banks. Thank you. BACKLOG IN THE IMPLEMENTATION OF NDP 8 PROJECTS KGOSI B. GAREBAKWENA: asked the Minister of Finance and Development Planning to brief this Honourable House on the seriousness of backlog in the implementation of NDP 8 development projects by stating the following:- (i) the percentage of the projects that have been implemented; (ii) the percentage of those that have not been implemented; (iii) the additional funds required to implement the remaining projects; and; (vi) the extent to which this delay has affected the economy stating which sectors are adversely affected. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR SEBETELA): It is true that there is some backlog in the implementation of the Eighth National Development Plan (NDP 8) development projects. A total of 22 983 projects were planned for NDP 8, including some carried over from NDP 7. This figure excludes very small projects like pit latrines, other programmes like ALDEP packages, drought relief projects, etc. The current Total Revised Development Budget Estimates is set at P23.6 billion from P11.8 billion at the beginning of the Plan. Out of this number: (I) A total of 8513 projects have been completed, which accounts for 37 percent of all the planned projects. A total amount of P9.1 billion, representing 32 per cent of the Total Revised Development Budget Estimate, was spent on these projects. (ii) 6617 projects, accounting from 29 per cent of all the planned projects are currently ongoing. These projects are estimated to cost P14.5 billion, which accounts for 50 per cent of the Total Revised Development Budget. The remaining 7853 projects have been deferred, which is 34 per cent of the total planned projects. The total funds required to implement these deferred projects is P5.1 billion, accounting for 18 per cent of the Total Revised Development Budget. (iii) It should be noted that the projects cover such components as small as one classroom as well as big projects such as the Otse Police College. In some cases we are comparing small consultancy works with projects like roads. This therefore accounts for the variance in percentages between projects and expenditure. The above statistics therefore should be used with caution as we are comparing components of different magnitude and nature. Regarding the extent which the delay has affected the economy, it should be noted that the carry overs from NDP 7 and the NDP 8 new projects resulted in the Ministries front loading their programmes during the first half of NDP 8, thereby resulting in an over-heated economy. Therefore, a boom was created in the construction sector as too many projects were chasing too few hands in terms of contractors. As a result, prices got hiked up, the nation got less value for money per unit of Government expenditure. For instance, at the beginning of NDP 8, one kilometre (1 km) of tarred road was estimated to cost P500 000, it is now estimated to cost P1 000 000. Similarly, one square metre (1m2) of a Government building was estimated at P2 000, it is now estimated at P6 000. Thank you. KGOSI SEBELE I: With regard to the last part of the question, is the minister in a position to tell this House that out of the outstanding projects, how many were not completed because of the structural defects as a result of negligence by building contractors? If there are any such cases, what is the government doing to alleviate this problem? 66 MR SEBETELA: The projects such as those mentioned by the Honourable Member are regarded as existing and still in the process because the vote is active and some money had been paid. What happens with cases such as this one is that government engages other constructors to complete the job. Those are therefore classified under the 6 617 projects which are on going. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, what is the criteria used to stop an on going project? To cite an example, Mr Chairman, the Mogobane/Kanye road was at one point under construction but the work was abruptly stopped. We just want to know why the construction work was discontinued, yet road projects in Mogoditshane are still continuing? MR SEBETELA: Mr Chairman, I am sure Honourable Members are aware that there are development projects which fall under Local Government and those which fall under Central Government. What you see happening in Mogoditshane is the Local Government Development Projects. These two are allocated funds differently and do not share the same problems. To come to the Honourable Member"s question, Mr Chairman, projects are suspended for several reasons. In most cases, when funds are allocated for a particular project, there can be a problem of being unable to engage experts in the field or designers who can do the work. We do not have adequate skills in all the disciplines required to advance the development of our country. As a result the project suffers and therefore suspended. In the process Mr Chairman, funds definitely go up as you know prices do escalate. For example, if construction of one kilometre of road was estimated at half a million, after this indefinite delay prices of the same one kilometre of road would be one million. This project would therefore be suspended until funds are made available to top up. This normally take some time. But I can assure this Honourable House that funds have been made available for the Mogobane/Kanye road and construction work will start as soon as possible. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: You will pardon me Minister if this question has already been covered. The question is, is any of these backlogs and delays attributable to manpower shortages in the public service, and if so, what can you say about it. MR SEBETELA: Mr Chairman, at the beginning of my answer, I did indicate that, NDP 8 is new projects and the carry over from NDP 7. I went on to indicate that, because of the carry over from NDP 7, Ministries were anxious to implement as many projects as possible in order to make up for the delays during NDP 7. But because we are a developing country, we do not had adequate skills in all the disciplines required to advance the development of our country. We rely a great deal on consultancy. We rely a great deal on suppliers of services outside government. Now, the combination of NDP 7 carry-overs and NDP 8 new project was clearly more than what just the private sector could carry not to mention government itself. It was more than what government could carry and this is why during NDP 8 we had a long debate of reducing the number of projects in order to achieve two themes. To achieve the balance between the number of projects and our capacity in government to monitor the private sector. And secondly to get the balance right between the number of projects and possible suppliers, because as soon as the imbalance favours the private sector, in other words we have more jobs than the private sector can do, then we run into the problems that we were talking about, that of price hikes which will eventually result in an over heated economy, inflation and also rent. It is not just inflation. I think where the supply is exceeded by demand, the suppliers tend to charge a little bit more than they would otherwise do if the demand and supply were fairly balanced. So, yes, I did own up that capacity within government, capacity in the private sector during the early years of NDP 8 were out-stripped by what government wanted to do. And this is part of the reason during NDP 8 we have sought to get this balance and you are fully aware that in trying to get this balance, we got into trouble with Members of Parliament since they want to see more developments, but then there must be a balance between seeing more developments and the capacity for the country as a whole to actually get those developments done cost effectively, maximum value for Pula of expenditure by government. Thank you. 67 KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, I would like to put it before the Minister that it seems like there is lack of experts in Botswana and we have to rely on people coming from outside. When people come from outside, how does the ministry assist to ensure that these experts are recruited in terms of residence and work status. How does the Ministry of Labour process situations of that nature, and how soon are requests being attended to. Mr Chairman I might just indicate here, sometime back, the Minister of Foreign Affairs was complaining in Parliament, that one road in his constituency (Mahalapye) has taken long to construct, only to find that somebody in the Ministry of Works Transport and Communication, because of tardiness on their part, have not attended to the requests of some expert. How exactly do you liase with this ministry. MR CHAIRMAN: Just for my benefit Kgosi, we do not tie in with.... KGOSI KALABEN: I am talking about lack of experts, that projects are being delayed because of this. That is why I was asking how the Ministry of Works Transport and Communication liases with that of Labour and Home Affairs in order to help these people. For instance at the Gerald Estates, the technicians who are supposed to come there, are refused permits. MR SEBETELA: Mr Chairman, the issue being raised is a critical one and if one looks at budget speeches from about 1983 to now, you will find that it will appear in almost every budget speech the problem of work permits backlog. Now it has been a matter that we have been discussing in the National Employment Manpower Incomes Committee (NEMIC) which I Chair. And in order to expedite the issuing of permits, we are in consultation with the Ministry of Labour and Home Affairs to try and agree certain critical skills which we hope will be declared scarce in Botswana. These critical skills, there will be no need for long application procedures. In other words, if we declare that Land Surveyors are a critical skill in Botswana, there will no longer be any need for the long application procedure. It will be given automatically. This, we are doing as a result of the high level consultative council proposals by the private sector. But on the other hand as you know there are always conflicting considerations in government. As soon as this list is published, Members of Parliament will be asking questions that everyone is allowed into the country. So, it is going to be very difficult. The list, I believe when it is released because it even includes Farm Labourers because they are also very scarce. So it is not about education, it is not about Form III, Form V, Degree, it is just about the demand in the Botswana economy of certain skills, certain people to help us move this economy forward. And I hope that when the list is eventually approved by NEMIC and it is made public, we will get support from all quarters including this House. Because normally in government when you ask for something and do it, you also get complaints from other sectors of the economy. But we will continue to try and get this balance because I have doubt that as soon as it is released we might have to go back to Honourable Kwelagobe and say please cancel the following because the public including the House of Chiefs, Members of Parliament are up in arms. But we are taking that very seriously Kgosi, this is why our Ministry with Labour and Home Affairs are just about to finalise this particular matter. In fact once Honourable Kwelagobe"s ministry is ready, we will call a special meeting of NEMIC to deal with just that issue in order to enhance our capacity to develop this country. Thank you Sir. MR CHAIRMAN: Who is NEMIC? MR SEBETELA: National Employment Manpower and Incomes Committee. ALERTING ROAD USERS ABOUT POTHOLES ON THE ROADS KGOSI D. S. TOTO II: asked the Minister of Works, Transport and Communications whether he will consider alerting all road users about the depth, length and width of potholes on the roads. 68 ACTING MINISTER OF WORKS, TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MRS KOKORWE): Mr Chairman, My Ministry is concerned with the amount of potholes that develop along our national road network. But practicality of alerting road users about their depth, length and width is not achievable. This is so because the exact character of each pothole throughout the country, together with the method of communication to road users regarding the potholes condition cannot be ascertained. Occurrence of potholes on our roads is a result of a number of factors, which include road deterioration, abnormal rain, as was the case this last season and excessive loading or overloading. As a result of these factors, the type and size of potholes continuously change with time, and cannot be practically used to alert road users. My Ministry, therefore, is not considering using the approach suggested by the Honourable Member of the House to alert road users. The more practical approach that My Ministry undertakes is to expeditiously repair potholes and warn road users of the presence of potholes or any hazardous condition of the road through appropriate road signs, while repair work is undertaken or being planned. Thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you Mr chairman. I appreciate the Minister"s response but if you take Jwaneng and Sekoma road, there are a lot of potholes and one cannot estimate as to how long these potholes will take, so it would be advisable if there is information to say you are going to drive so many kilometres through potholes. MRS KOKORWE: I have noted it Honourable Member. We can only make road signs that will inform the driver of the number of kilometres but not the size of potholes. NO SHELTER OR TOILETS FOR POST OFFICE NIGHT-WATCHMEN KGOSI W. T. B. RAMOSWAANE: asked the Minister of Works, Transport and Communications whether he is aware that night-watchmen for some post offices country-wide do not have shelter or even toilets which they can use after hours, if so, the Minister should say what he intends doing about this anomaly. ACTING MINISTER OF WORKS, TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MRS KOKORWE): Mr Chairman, out of 112 Post Offices, 16 do not have toilet facilities for night watchmen and almost all 112 do not have guardrooms. Botswana Postal Services has embarked on a rehabilitation programme which is ongoing and includes construction of toilets for use not only by night watchmen, but the public as well. With regard to guardrooms for night watchmen, Botswana Post is currently working on a programme of construction of the facility where no other means of providing security other than engagement of night watchmen is available. Thank you, Mr Chairman. TRANSFER OF TRIBAL ADMINISTRATION STAFF KGOSI W. T. B. RAMOSWAANE: asked the Minister of Local Government whether she is aware that Tribal Administration staff are still being transferred to places far away from their spouses contrary to the initial spirit of keeping couples together where possible. ACTING MINISTER OF WORKS, TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MRS KOKORWE): Mr Chairman, I am aware that where the exigencies of the service dictate, Tribal Administration staff, like in all other government departments, may be transferred to places far away from their spouses. This however Mr Chairman, is not a deliberate flouting of the spirit of keeping couples together. Indeed where practically possible, couples are retained in one place or within reasonable reach of each other. Mr Chairman, I acknowledge this is a sensitive matter, requiring a delicate balance between work demands and family unions. Nevertheless, my Ministry will continue to seek better ways to strike the balance. Thank you. 69 CRETERIA USED TO MOUNT SIGNS KGOSI TOTO II: asked the Minister of Works, Transport and Communications to explain the criteria used for mounting sign posts that indicate distance between places i.e. in towns, villages and cities, since Tsabong-Sekoma road does not have such sign posts. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MRS KOKORWE): In principle information road sign that indicate distance between places i.e. in towns, villages and cities are mounted at 20 kilometres intervals or at strategic points such as junctions or on outskirts of settlements. The Tsabong-Sekoma road was constructed through an in house construction team under the rural roads programme. Due to financial constraints, the programme did not allow for adequate constructions of road signs during construction. As a result most of the roads constructed under this programme do not have adequate road signs and my ministry is in the process of installing the road signs. Thank you. FORM 7 OF THE CUSTOMARY COURTS-PRISON TERM KGOSI SEBELE I: asked the Minister of Local Government whether she is aware that Form 7 of the Customary Courts Act Cap 04:05 does not provide a portion to explain that prison term, if so; the Minister should state how she intends to correct this anomaly. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MRS KOKORWE): Mr Chairman, I am aware that Form 7 of the Customary Court Act Cap: 04:05 does not provide a portion to explain that a prisoner who was ordered to pay compensation shall be required to pay the said compensation after the completion of prison term. Mr. Chairman, my Ministry does not regard this as an anomaly because the court awarding compensation clearly states when the compensation is to be paid and what is to happen if compensation is not paid within the stipulated period stated in the Court Order. After the hearing of the case, the prisoner is informed of this order and asked to comply with it either before or after the prison term depending on the period of payment of the compensation as stated by the court order. However, this concern shall be taken care of when all these forms are revised. Thank you. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, I understand the way the question has been asked. Now I would like to know from the Honourable Minister if he is in agreement with the fact that compensation should be deferred until the prisoner is back from jail, would that then not be against the interest of the person being compensated? Also, the fact that I am aware of a ruling in one court where a judgement was given, if the compensation was deferred to the time when the prisoner will be out, where the High Court overruled that compensation should not be deferred, it is upon the person granted the order to decide when to persue the case. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MRS KOKORWE): I understand Mr Chairman, although this is a bit irrelevant to the question at hand. I think whether or not the Court Order is deferred, that is the responsibility of the Judge, whether he feels the prisoner should pay before going to prison or after serving the sentence. Thank you. KGOSI KALABEN: Honourable Minister, I was saying, in terms of a High Court Order, the judgement would have been passed deferring the payment of compensation and the High Court ruled out that this was not emanating necessarily from a customary court case. It was a subordinate case order, and I think now the principle applies to every court in the land that you can not defer a civil matter action with the court order it is upon the person being compensated to persue the order in court. You should make it open. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MRS KOKORWE): I understand Mr Chairman, if that is the case, then Honourable Members can continue in that fashion. 70 FORM 7 OF CUSTOMARY COURTS-NUMBER OF STROKES KGOSI E.K.K. SEBELE: asked the Minister of Local Government whether she is aware that Forms No.7 of the Customary Courts Act 04:05 does not have a provision for the number of strokes sentenced, if so; the Minister should say what she intends doing to rectify this anomaly. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MRS KOKORWE): Thank you Mr Chairman. I am aware of this situation. My Ministry will make the necessary adjustment to Form No.7 mentioned above to create a space for inclusion of number of strokes imposed by a respective sentence. Thank you. MINISTER OF LABOUR AND HOME AFFAIRS (MR KWELAGOBE): I would like to inform this Honourable House that I am aware and familiar with the Government Paper No.1 of 1990 which is the Revised National Policy on Incomes, Employment, Prices and Profit. The policy document, among other things prescribes that licensing boards are no longer required to make commercial judgement about applications for commercial licenses. However, this policy is not intended to open the flood gates for all kinds of foreigners under the guise that they are investors and have come to Botswana to engage in commercial activities. Mr Chairman, even though licensing boards are no longer required to make commercial judgements about applications for licenses, there is need for immigrant"s selection boards to satisfy themselves that there are justifiable reasons for foreigners to come and settle in Botswana. I therefore hold the view that Section 19:04 of Cap 25:02 of the Immigration Act should be maintained and I do not consider to be an anomaly as stated by the Honourable Member. I thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, this policy came into being in 1990. The Immigration Selection Board, Immigration law was passed in 1982 before the government took a stand with the requirement to dispense with commercial judgements about applications. That policy document, was directed to all the sectors involved in this industry, that is why I call it an anomaly because immediately after 1990 policy paper in all the laws relating to this commercial judgement, government started amending. This is the spirit I persued to ask the Minister whether she does not see the need to comply with that government paper; the government policy was addressing that particular issue. But they did not amend. MINISTER OF LABOUR AND HOME AFFAIRS (MR KWELAGOBE): Honourable Member, it could be true the law was not amended. But the important thing is, when introducing this policy, in addition to the existing law, the intention was to target Batswana who are required to state how much they have, where they got that from when applying for commercial business. If you disclose this information, you might end up not being helped because they will tell you that you do not have enough money to run the business. This was a big hindrance to most Batswana who opted to venture into commercial business. At the same time, we did not want to open our doors to everyone. Right now the two Houses are complaining about the influx of foreigners into Botswana who come here to set up businesses which eventually turns out to be Chinese oriented. We were avoiding a situation where foreigners will come here, set up businesses, that is why we have left the immigration law in tact to protect Batswana to take up certain businesses. The Minister of Commerce is investigating the law to identify any traces of loopholes. Particularly the one regarding speciality licenses that is working against Batswana. People come here on Speciality licenses, when you look at the law, it is just open. The Minister is on the process of amending this law to discourage foreigners who come in great numbers to come and set up businesses which have been identified for Batswana.. We shall continue scrutinising these people to find out whether their contribution can help boast the economy of Botswana. If it is found that the person is hopeless, the business he wants to venture into can be run by the locals, then we would have the law on our side. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Minister, can I interrupt, I thought you were giving vote of thanks but it looks like you still want to continue. Can we continue later please. Thank you. 71 KGOSI KALABEN: No, I am not continuing . It is just to say thank you to the Minister not only along those lines, to say in my mind that law even if it can be maintained, it will not be contravening the spirit of the constitution because the constitution says any law of this nature, is fine as long as it is with respect to with respect to people who are not citizens of Botswana. PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR TEA MR CHAIRMAN: We had finished with Kgosi Kalaben"s question No.8 now we move on to Kgosi Garebakwena"s question. CONSTRUCTING LIGHT INDUSTRIAL WORKSHOP KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: asked the Minister of Commerce and Industry to say when she would consider constructing light industrial workshops in all major villages which could be leased to small and medium scale producers at affordable cost. MINISTER OF COMMERCE AND INDUSTRY (MRS SERETSE): Thank you. Mr Chairman, my Ministry has no intention of constructing light industrial workshops in any village. In the 1970s and early 80"s, my Ministry built factory shells under the BEDU and Rural Industrial Officer Programmes. The day to day administration of these factory shells was the responsibility of the field officers, who are also charged with the responsibility of providing advisory services to entrepreneurs, including the factory shell tenants. Over time, it became clear that the administrative functions carried out by these officers were in conflict with their advisory role. For instance, they were expected to evict these tenants when defaulting on their rental payments. Furthermore, the administrative responsibilities detract field officers from their primary responsibility of advising and coaching the entrepreneurs since these take a significant proportion of their time. Both the Industrial Development Policy and the Policy on Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises recognise this dilemma. It is for this reason that my Ministry has reviewed its position with regard to the construction of light industrial workshops. It is the view of my Ministry that while the provision of light industrial workshops are important, they must be provided by the private sector. The new Industrial Development Policy of 1997 also advocates for the Local Authorities to provide this service. Mr Chairman, with the expected implementation also of the Privatisation Policy, it becomes important for the government to review activities that can be privatised. In my Ministry"s view, factory shells are an obvious candidate for privatisation. I thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Thank you Mr Chairman .I thank the Minister for this answer. She is clearly stating the reasons why they are not doing this work. And I am saying as she agrees with me that this is an important thing is there not a way in which her Ministry could encourage those who could do this work to do so and help those who need workshops. MRS SERETSE: Thank you Mr Chairman. It is true, Kgosi we do encourage. We hold meetings with the private sector and encourage them to provide workshops, we encourage especially the Councils. So that the councils may know that if investors find ready made factory shells in their villages where they can establish their businesses it can help the councils to woo investors to their areas. So we do encourage, Sir, in that when we have a meeting with the councils and the private sector we encourage them not just to confine themselves to urban areas. Thank you Mr Chairman. EXTENDING SMME TO THOSE EARNING 40 000 KGOSI TOTO: asked the Minister of Commerce and Industry whether he would consider extending Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises (SMME) scheme to those who earn more than P40,000 annually and borrow them more than P25,000.00. MINISTER OF COMMERCE (MRS SERETSE): Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, the scheme is available to Batswana who earn less than P40,000,000 per annum. The estimated average 72 annual individual income for citizens in 1999 stood at 17,148. It shows that the majority of Batswana earn far less than P40,000.00 per annum. This therefore shows that the scheme is accessible to the majority of Batswana. Mr Chairman, government assistance programmes, by nature, are designed to target specific groups, which have common problems and/or characteristics. The micro-credit scheme, under the Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises policy is one such programme. It designed to assist SMME businesses as defined in the policy document, Government Paper No.1 of 1999. Some of these may be classified as informal and they typically face serious constraints in trying to access finance due to their size and nature. And because of their size and nature, the commercial banks and other lending institutions deem them unbankable and therefore unsustainable. The maximum loan amount of P20,000.00 under the scheme is currently considered sufficient since the majority of Micro Businesses do not require huge capitalisation. It is therefore not considered necessary to increase the loan amount at this point in time. Increasing the loan amount will only compound the arrears problems as repayment instalment will be higher whereas the turnover of these businesses will not be enough to service such higher loans. I may add, Mr Chairman, that ever since the scheme started, although I do not have figures in front of me, but it is a fact that the arrears are far much higher relative to the amount dispersed. So that one is seeing a situation where the loans have been dispersed under the SMME but repayment is becoming a problem, which also goes further, I think, Mr Chairman, to illustrate that as Batswana, once as an individual I have benefited, I forget the fact that once such a programme is introduced by government, by its nature it ought to be a revolving fund, such that you take the money or business X takes the money, they get into that particular business venture, they maintain to repay such that when they are repaying, Mr Y there or business Y there is also able to access the same fund without having to increase the original fund amount, which had been put aside for the programme. I thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: I would like to ask the Minister about SMME . We hear that people say that, since there is no security required and that people who do not pay have their debts written off at the end, many people want this money, They know that there is no way in which they will be compelled to pay at the end. Could you please say something about this issue. MRS SERETSE: Mr Chairman, it is not true that just because there is no collateral which is required, those who have taken such amounts will be excused. There is already a precedence in this country, where through the same National Development Bank, a lot of farmers lost their equipment and their source of livelihood as it were, because NDB had to go and repossess. There are no intentions whatsoever, that government is going to be in a position to write off any debts, or to write them off on the presumption that they are doubtful and/or unrecoverable, because as I have just alluded to earlier on, Mr Chairman, the idea about such fund is that you do not increase the size of the original amount which is put off for the fund. But with the same amount, you are able to accommodate as many Batswana as you can, so that we alleviate poverty so that they too in their growth then become in a position that those small businesses, which started off being small, would eventually become self dependent and would be able to be bankable and as such be able to attract commercial banks to finance them without any assistance. So what the government is currently doing, through SMME is to empower people so that eventually, after operating for about two to three years, they are able to stand up by themselves and make their business grow and be able to get the financing from other institutions, because government is not in the business of financing. So this is being done, more if you like, as a bridging gap. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI JACKALAS: I am happy with the Minister"s answer. She made a mention that arrears are high in the SMME scheme. I do not know whether the problem is a result of the duration of payment as it appears most of them have been given three or two years, someone taking P5 000 and told to pay it back within three years. You will find someone paying two hundred and something Pula as a hawker. 73 But I think a hawker"s profit is around P200. Probably this is what contributes to making paying back problematic. MRS SERETSE: When someone applies for a SMME loan they are requested to estimate for how much they would able to sell. Sort of a crude cash flow analysis if you like, of how much they will be making monthly to service the loan. So many a time the repayment period is tied to those estimations. But it is a fact in business practice that sometimes estimations are not exactly what then prevails as you are running a business. But by the same token, in banking and in business, if you are given a loan which you are to pay within three years and within the first three/six months of that loan, you are not able to pay, surely you cannot then meet the balance of the repayment period. So it must be a fact. I mean that I am not in a position to say whether or not with the interest if you had taken P5 000 how much are you going to be able to repay. I do not have those figures. But surely if you cannot demonstrate right at the beginning, after drawing the total amount of money that you are able to compete and you are able to maintain the loan, the chances of your maintaining it later on to me it seems like there would be some difficulty. I think the problem might also be that people tend to get the money without really having studied their environment or their market, and then it might be a fact that the competition is high in whatever business venture they have taken the loan to service or to run. Thank you. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MRS KOKORWE): I am made to understand that last time when the meeting adjourned our officers from the Attorney General"s Chambers were still on the floor, may I take this opportunity to once again continue their presentation and answer the questions. A.G.'S CHAMBERS REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Yes when we adjourned on Wednesday I was in the process of reminding the House of the Agreement that had been completed by the late President Sir Seretse Khama and the chiefs that were representing all the people of Botswana at the time. As it had been stated then, this Agreement was in effect permitting the Dikgosi to transfer the rights that they held over the land and the minerals under those lands to the State. The interest in the minerals in each tribal territory was transferred to the Republic of Botswana and an Act was drawn up which commenced on the 29th September 1967 incorporating these different Agreements that were passed at the time. So because the rights to the minerals were transferred to the Government, one cannot then later claim that the minerals under these lands were compulsorily acquired by the State. It therefore follows that Section 8 of the Constitution cannot be applicable to the persons who transferred their rights under the Statute because their land was not compulsorily acquired, they voluntarily transferred their rights to the State. Having dealt with that particular Act, the Minerals Rights in Tribal Territories, copies of which we have made available to the House. I will then go the Mines and Minerals Act. Under Section 3 of the Mines and Minerals Act, the Act states that "subject to the provisions of the Mineral Rights in Tribal Territories Act, all rights of ownership in minerals are vested in the Republic. So under this law all rights to all minerals in the land of Botswana are vested in the Government. So I would in conclusion state that Councils as corporate bodies also have funds in which revenue in the form of rents from property owned or administered by such councils, donations, contributions or monies which may accrue to them are paid. In addition to all these sources of funds Government also contributes to the funds by an annual grant given to each Council depending with each Council"s needs and demands. So there are different sources of funds that are made available to the Council according to their needs and according to the demands that they made to Government. One may find that in fact the grant that is made by the Government to the Council on an annual basis may even supersede the royalty that may have been payable to the Council because these grants are made in accordance with the needs of the people and of the Council in the particular areas. Thank you Mr Chairman. 74 ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MRS KOKORWE): I was thinking that may be I could add or... KGOSI KALABEN: Thank you Mr Chairman. They think that the operative words is "compulsory". Whether their interpretation is viable or not it is immaterial to my motion, because my motion was that, there are sources of revenue and I merely indicated that Government should look at other alternatives including payment of royalties accruing from mineral rights. This is what I was saying. I was also going to say Mr Chairman, that even Land Boards, have been set up in the respective areas where you come, they are deriving revenue from all sources and that money is acumulating. This is merely a suggestion that Government should look into this, that instead of Land Board having an independent treasury the money they get should be injected into the council because council is doing the development projects of the communities. Land Board is doing nothing with the money except to buy expensive cars and to build their offices. For instance Sua Land Board we have DK1 and DK2, they are getting leased fees from those mines, and the money is not used to develop the villages, but to buy luxurious cars. I do not have to argue with the minister that the law says this and the constitution says that, it was just a suggestion that, you can look into the modes of this revenues. I am not interested in the interpretation of the constitution and that was not the intention of my motion. Today we are here and we want to see developments in our respective villages. And in conclusion I would like to thank Honourable Members for the support they gave me and to stress that we should be unanimous with this motion. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Honourable Member. I want to believe that the minister had already responded and according to me the Attorney Generals officials are the ones that are needed to interpret these things. The motion has been debated and I believe it is now up to the House to either adopt the motion or ... Question put and agreed to. ESTABLISHMENT OF ABATTOIRS IN ALL MAJOR VILLAGES COUNTRY-WIDE - MOTION KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Thank you Mr Chairman. I would like to present before this Honourable a motion that reads "That this Honourable House requests the Government to establish abattoirs in all major villages country-wide."I would be as brief as possible. Batswana eat a lot of meat, in that case they need to eat meat that is inspected. They eat beef at the same time they use cattle for other things. It is usually said that Batswana use cattle as a form of money since if they have problems they sell these cattle and get some money to pay for other things. Some Batswana farmers keep these cattle for commercial purpose, thus they sell them to Botswana Meat Commission and to other abattoirs. In some areas these abattoirs do not exist in that case meat is not inspected before it can be consumed by the people. If there are no abattoirs, it means these cattle can be slaughtered anywhere. There are incidents whereby it was discovered that people ate meat which was contaminated, it had rabies. Abattoirs were not used for slaughtering these cattle. It is therefore necessary to ensure that major villages have abattoirs so that high risks of people eating contaminated meat are reduced. If I recall very well, Gaborone had long had an abattoir before its population expansion, but Molepolole even if it has more people than Gaborone it does not have an abattoir. Besides the fact that there are no abattoirs, there is a high rate of stock theft since cattle are slaughtered in the bush. Some have arranged to kill them by setting up traps in the bush, in that way no one witness the slaughtering apart from those killing the cattle. At times they are killed just like wild animals, in that case they are short, put at the back of a bakkie, slaughtered in the backyard of a butchery and sold to the public. If there were abattoirs in the villages, people will be shocked if the cattle are killed in this manner. Currently no one get shocked if cattle are slaughtered in this manner since there are no abattoirs. People"s lives are in danger because they eat contaminated meat which has not been inspected, even the economy is affected in one way or another. If cattle are slaughtered in places which are not designated, it encourages stock theft. With those few remarks I want to thank you Mr Chairman. 75 KGOSI SEBOKO II: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Kgosi Garebakwena"s motion is straightforward. I would like to add on to his contribution since we are located along the border, it is even worse in our case as there is escalating rate of stock theft. Beside this, cattle disease can even be transmitted to our livestock as recently there is an outbreak of foot and mouth disease in South Africa. There is a lot of cattle between our border with South Africa i.e. at Lehurutshe. The cattle that are slaughtered anywhere cause a serious problem since there has been a case whereby someone bought a head of a cow that belonged to him from a butchery not knowing that it did belong to him. He transported it in a wheel barrow and when he got home he discovered an ear marking that indicated that it belonged to him. This happened in 1997, I called the policemen who discovered that the other parts were still in the butchery. The owner of the butchery was asked as to where he had bought the cattle since he had sold it to the owner. As I am talking to you, the culprit has been imprisoned. We always debate about all these during Council meetings. It has been suggested by the officials from the Ministry of Agriculture that all the cattle should have brand names or any other marking as this alleviate the problem of cattle being stolen. So, if there are abattoirs in major villages, it will not be easy for cattle to be stolen and slaughtered in the bush since before being slaughtered in the abattoirs, brand marks will be checked which will be have to correspond with papers brought by the farmer/owner. If the meat can be inspected this way, definitely diseases such as rabies will not be transmitted to those who eat beef. If for example people eat contaminated beef and get sick, their sickness will be associated with being bewitched. Honourable Member has tabled a very important motion. If it so happen that these abattoirs are build, definitely stock theft will decrease. I fully support the motion tabled. Thank you, Mr Chairman. KGOSI SEBELE I: Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me thank the Honourable Member who tabled this motion. I enliken this motion with traditional medicine Makgonatsotlhe meaning that it heals everything. If we can have abattoirs in all major villages, this will boost the economy since most cattle will be sold nearby. The by-products will be used wisely as some of them are used as manure. Some people even use these by-products in manufacturing industries. The abattoirs will definitely create employment for some people. In the case of Gaborone abattoirs employ a lot of people since they slaughter cattle for all the butcheries in the city. Some people even buy some of the by-products to produce manure. If all other districts can have abattoirs this will help in job creation and even for the people to eat disease free meat. Mr chairman, they could have abattoirs. In Molepolole we could have up to 20 or a little more than 20 abattoirs. If you go through the village more especially during the rainy season, it is so stinking, and those people who live close the butcheries are so uncomfortable and they live with the stench. Mr chairman, if abattoirs could be established or even made mandatory, it significantly reduce these problems. We are now in the year for the campaign "a health of all by the year 2000" , But if we do not have abattoirs in some areas, I think it is a serious shortcoming, something should be done about it. ads one has said, these abattoirs tend to reduce stock theft, and can lead to the speedy arrest of those suspected of stock theft. as if the suspect does not produce proof from the abattoir and has slaughtered a beast, then the police will have reasonable suspicion of stock theft. There are people who work in these butcheries whose duty is to spot stray stock. There are those butcheries which since the day they were opened, you would never see the owners buying stock at the established market, yet they slaughter every day. These are the butcheries that employ such people. They go around spotting stray cattle, and if they notice that the brand of the stock is for a different tribes like Balete, Batlokwa etc, then they steal those and sell them for P500.00 or even P200.00, even though the actual value might be P1000.00. this is a very wrong practice. It impoverishes people and kills the economy. It undermines government policies as some stock had been secured under government financial help. Therefore Mr Chairman, I support this motion and believe that it could be the solution to most of the problems that the people encounter. Thank you Mr Chairman. 76 KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, I support this motion as well, of the government to consider establishing abattoirs in all the major villages. I can realise why the mover has confined himself to major villages. But with resources permitting those should be built even in other villages like Moshupa, Thamaga. But I do not think there is resource limitation, it goes back to the issue we have been just discussing, of strengthening Local authorities like councils to do development projects as opposed to giving the Land Boards a lot of financial resources that they spend in building offices only.... HONOURABLE MEMBER: They shine with expensive cars. KGOSI KALABEN: They shine with cars, they do not use that money for anything meaningful, the money should be given to the councils. Mr Chairman, if you look at the laws that exist, for instance the Public Health Act. you realise that, the public health officers are constrained in discharging their duties of seeing to it that the people are effectively protected from environmental health diseases, for example, consuming non wholesome meats. If we are aware of their constraints that they cannot go through all the butcheries as my uncle stated their large number in Molepolole, then we would establish a single point of entry, or an abattoir for effective meat inspection, that and improve on their productivity Mr Chairman, I realise that, under the District Councils Act, some councils like Central, have in place a legislation that allows them to establish abattoirs. It is referred to here with your permission the Central District Serowe Abattoirs Bye-Laws. Some have not yet taken the initiative to establish abattoirs as they have to do them in accordance with the statute. The minister should encourage other councils to do likewise because it is so necessary to do so. It is not a very difficult thing to do it does not require much, absolutely. But in Ngwaketse , the council say it cannot build shades at the bus stops and toilets as the chief has not given that authority or permission otherwise they will be constrained in some way. I only hope this experience will not repeat itself, in relation to the establishment of the abattoirs. We have those excuses from the councils. They pass on the bark. if they are failing to do the work, even on the things that are not within the jurisdiction of the Chief. Development projects are stand-still in Ngwaketse, because of this attitude of the council. Minister, please the establishment of the abattoir. Abattoirs can be established with the available funds. We do not need the support of foreign donors or even Central Government. They can do it without consulting the Minister, they can do it without passing the bark on the chief. I am a farmer, and because Botswana Meat Commission pays peanuts to farmers, they prefer to sell their stock to the butcheries because they pay well. therefore, if abattoirs can be established in major villages, it would be so easy to solve other problems as the abattoir will not slaughter any stock without valid certificates of ownership and veterinary inter-zonal removable permit otherwise in the absence of those the abattoir will not admit the stock for slaughter.. I support the motion. KGOSI GASEITSIWE: Mr Chairman, I do not think anyone of us will oppose this motion as it promotes both the environmental health and curbs stock theft. However, I want this motion before it is adopted to be suspended so as to bring in the culture and tradition aspect and to see as to how best to embrace them. We know that different tribes have different cultures and norms, as in slaughtering a beast for traditional medicine or to officially mark the death of an elder. These rituals are done in certain ways which would not be in line with the abattoir regulations. It may mean removing certain parts from the animal and doing it in a special way and maybe only performed by that particular traditional doctor, etc. There are those norms that must be observed, hence I request that the people must be consulted on the matter to see how best these could be brought in congruence with each other...... KGOSI SEBELE: I want to say that that is understood because culture is law and it will not be constrained by the provisions of the constitution, that is understood. I do not think slaughtering a beast not at the abattoir for the traditional purposes like bereavement,wedding celebrations and medicinal purposes would be a problem. It is understood because the law is very clear on such issues. 77 KGOSI GASEITSEWE: .....(Inaudible).....Let us go and talk to our people, because if we do not, we know that our people can be very sly if they want to, and use this as an excuse to commit crimes. Now, before we can address culture, let us consult with our people and see if we can proceed or not. That is when we can request to have abattoirs. I understand what Kgosi Sebele was saying, that would be a loophole. Thank you Mr. Chairman. KGOSI RAMOSWAANA: Thank you Mr. Chairman. This Motion is quite straight forward with no complications. When we talk about cattle, we are referring to the lives of Batswana. It is the diamond. It is everything, as Kgosi Sebele said, for it can bail you out from any problems you may have. Monthly salaries cannot compare, Mr. Chairman. I agree, there should be abattoirs in villages to reduce theft. There are diseases which our cattle are vaccinated against, but the butcheries do not care about that. All they do is buy cattle, some of which could have been vaccinated the previous day, from thieves. But we know that if you slaughter a beast which has just been vaccinated you are asking for trouble. One colleague has just said that, we then blame witchcraft instead of thieves, who may end up killing the whole nation. That is why we cannot even walk properly. Mr. Chairman, I agree with Kgosi Gaseitsewe when he says that cattle is our culture and we have to use it accordingly. In our culture, we have cattle for funerals, which have been registered. The Bakgalagadi usually break out in tears when they are being slaughtered. Mr. Chairman, during the previous year in May, between Kalkfontein and Chobokwane, a Cruiser came speeding towards me with a cow larger than the car itself. I tried to stop it, but it just passed me by. All I wanted was some help with my slow puncture. When I looked at the car I realised that it came from afar. At the back was a cow with its head tied to the car. I turned the car around in no time and chased the cruiser because I had realised that the cow looked exactly like mine. After chasing it for about 10 kilometres, I overtook them and stopped in front of them. Mr. Chairman as I was chasing them I knew that it was my cow. I asked them who the owner was, and they said it belonged to their father. I did not harass them and just wrote down the brand of the animal. There are brand marks which we unlawfully create for ourselves. Some brands would have been marked by the rightful owner when the animal was still a calf. For example, I as Ramoswaane, had branded mine with R or on the arm. I left the boys driving the cruiser, and Mr. Chairman in no time, their father came running, begging for forgiveness saying that his children had made a mistake. I demanded to see the registration from the veterinary department or else I am going to report the matter, and he begged on his knees and made a lot of promises. When I looked back and think about the number of cattle I had lost, I knew that this man was responsible. As Kgosi, you are expected to accept all your people. My wife said that in Sekgalagadi "mosadi o baya tau botsetsi". This means that a woman is very brave, even if she is married to a very troublesome man, she will not be afraid to talk to him. My wife asked me to take a good look at the man and his children, and the wrong they have committed. I told her that my cattle are gone, and this is my chance to get them back. Nevertheless, we concluded that I should leave the report with the authorities as back up in case he one day hires a lawyer and tries to take what is rightfully mine. Also that he should return all the five cattle including the last one and that he should condemn the brand he put on them. Mr. Chairman, the man agreed and did just that. I support Kgosi Garebakwena"s motion. Thank you Mr. Chairman. KGOSI MONTSHIOA: Mr. Chairman, this motion is quite straight forward. I have to adopt to change. The most important thing is cleanliness where food is concerned. What happens today is that people slaughter livestock anywhere. The meat from there goes straight to the butcher contaminated and sold to the nation. This motion says that there should be abattoirs in the major villages. The government or the council should provide housing. It is very important to try to adopt to change. In the past people did not build houses similar to the ones in Ngwaketse which were scattered everywhere. 78 When developments took place, they realised that people needed accommodation, that is all to do with a healthy environment. Whatever, is being sold to the people, should be done in a healthy environment. Even retailers should have health inspectors who always carry out inspection on the food. We plead with Government that there should be a legislation that has to do with slaughtering livestock in abattoirs before they can be sold in butcheries country wide. I support the motion as tabled by Kgosi Garebakwena. Thank you Mr. Chairman. KGOSI LINCHWE: Mr Chairman, there are certain stipulated legislation that has to do with public abattoirs, this is found in Chapter 36:03 which is about livestock and meat industry. We cannot run away from supporting our colleague since the aim of the legislation is for a good purpose but it is not stabilised. We plead with Government to ensure that there are abattoirs, so that cattle can be slaughtered in them. We have seen how successful the Gaborone City Council Abattoir has been operating. People do converge to this abattoir to sell livestock there. The cattle sold there are well inspected, graded accordingly. This project should be taken to the people throughout the country. As leaders of our tribes, we should encourage people to take their cattle to abattoirs since it can happen that a cattle slaughtered for funeral purpose be eaten by the owner without his knowledge. This did occur in several ceremonies. Some people have gone to the extend of stealing cattle, selling it to the bereaved families for funeral purposes and demanded payment after the ceremony. In one instance the culprit was refused payment hence he complained, but later it was realised that he had stolen the beast. Let us deal with the issue of the act on Livestock and Meat Industry, will those who are in charge of finance make it a point that his is implemented. Section 3 of this act, is about the powers of regulating abattoirs hence it should be implemented as well. The owners of butcheries have been requesting for our services in this regard. One other issue is on the conditions of giving this people licences. We usually give them licences as Chiefs and District Commissioners without having to ask them several questions. Mr. Chairman I support this motion. Thank you. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MRS KOKORWE): Thank you Mr Chairman. There is no one who can refute what Honourable Members had to say, hence I will respond to the motion in about one and half minutes since it is short. I am quite aware that Honourable Members feeling is that I will respond by saying there are financial constraints, but let me just read out the response. My Ministry is aware of the need to establish abattoirs in all major villages country wide. This has been clearly expressed during the previous and current National Development Plans. Lack of financial resources has however led to non implementation of such projects. It is my hope that funding for development of abattoirs in major centres shall be considered during National Development Plan 9. That is why Honourable Members, I have indicated that the need for abattoirs is a fact. As you are all aware, we go according to National Development Plans since we have to budget. It is my hope that this will be in the NDP 9 towards the end of it. We will not be able to do all these at a go since Botswana is a wide country. Kgosi Kalaben mentioned bye laws. In each place where we will have abattoirs, the bye abattoir bye laws will apply. The main reason why we do not have them throughout Botswana is because of lack of capital. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Let me thank Honourable Members who supported this motion and the Honourable Minister. I hope that she will keep the promise she had made in this House even if there might be constraints but she will try to abide by her promise. 79 The Honourable Minister of Finance and Development Planning had just been briefing about the delay in some projects because of financial constraints, I hope this will not affect our projects. MR. CHAIRMAN: We have only 15 seconds left. Question put and agreed to. PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH NATIONAL ATTIRE TO PROMOTE UNITY Motion KGOSI SEBELE I: Thank you Mr Chairman. My motion reads thus, "That this Honourable House requests Government to encourage Batswana to have a national attire in order to promote unity." Mr Chairman, the reason why I brought this motion is that we have been independent for quite a long time but we do not have a national attire which we can be proud of and say, this is Batswana attire. This will be a Batswana identity. There are many things that show our culture and custom, that keep us united. I think time has come that we should be seen to be doing something, like some tribes in Botswana are doing. We have Baherero who have their own attire, the Indians and other tribes sometimes having an attire based on their religion and so forth. What we want is a Botswana national attire, which is for all Batswana, not a religious denomination or belonging to a certain tribe. I am saying this because there are national days which are very important like President"s Day or Independence Day which was celebrated at Molepolole last year, and the previous year it was in Maun.. Quite recently Tourism Day was celebrated at Molepolole. These are the days which we could be putting on our national attire, being a proud nation. As we realise that sport is now being taken seriously in the country, our children go out quite often to play with others outside Botswana, it could be quite interesting for them to be wearing something that would identify them as Batswana, like other nations do when they go to foreign countries to represent their country. The national attire would also encourage unity and discourage discrimination amongst tribes. If we take the government of the day for instance, has made us a united nation, Bakwena, Batawana and so forth are what they are because of the government of Botswana. Mr Chairman, this national attire would go to future generations, because our children would find it and continue with it. We are not wearing skins today though we found our parents wearing animal skin, which was the identity of a Motswana, though some people may argue that that was a primitive ideology. But there are still those people who still were suits made of animal skin. I am not saying we should go back to animal skin. Now that we are talking of history, is it not time now for government through the Ministry of Home Affairs to think on these lines with regard to a national dress, as to what kind of dress we are talking about. We have the Women"s League, these are the people who can help us come up with an idea. Bakwena for instance promote the German print (letoise). We can agree on something like that, as a nation. Mr Chairman, whatever we will choose will be a Botswana dress. That is why I brought with this motion to this Honourable House so that we can share the idea and see what we can come up with. We must do that without showing political inclination, because political parties do have their own uniforms, be it BDP, BCP, BNF and even other social organisations such as YWCA, those have got nothing to do with the national dress that we are talking about. The national dress will be worn during special occasions or when Batswana go outside the country to other countries like there were representatives of the House of Chiefs who went to Swaziland. That could have been their identity as Botswana Chiefs being Batswana. We envy Basotho because when they come to our country we see them wearing their attire, that is, a blanket and a hat, by which one can just tell, this is a Mosotho. This is also the case with some of our neighbours like Zambia and Zimbabwe, but Botswana is the odd one out. I think we have been independent long enough to be seen 80 to be an independent nation, why not come up with a national dress that will show we are Batswana. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI JACKALAS: Thank you Mr Chairman. I support my colleague but I have got just a few comments to make. As people responsible for culture, we might be given the opportunity of going around the country to get people"s view on the national dress. This issue has been raised in our recent meeting, that is why I am the first to support the motion. A nation without a national dress has got no cultural identity. I visited Indiana, America with somebody from Ghanzi some time back. We were invited to a party where everybody was expected to wear their national attire. Baswati were there wearing Swati attire, the Scottish with theirs etc. Fortunately my colleague Xixae was a Mosarwa and had brought with him his traditional attire, at least that was something to be proud of. We had to say it was our national dress though we knew it represented just one community. I support the motion. HONOURABLE MEMEBR: Was he wearing a motseto? KGOSI JACKALAS: Yes. We wanted to have an identity, whatever he was wearing, depicted that we were Batswana. We do not mind going back to motseto. HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, just forget! KGOSI JACKALAS: Mr Chairman, with those few remarks, I thank you. KGOSI GASEITSEWE: Mr Chairman, I stand to oppose the motion because what the motion wants is not possible. The mover of the motion gave examples of Lesotho and Swaziland. Basotho are there under King Moshoeshoe and Baswati under Sobhuza, unlike Batswana who have many different cultures. You are really talking about the impossible. What you are trying to do is to close up one"s brain. Do you really see what you are actually doing? HONOURABLE MEMBER: No. KGOSI GASEITSEWE: One can just tell by the way you walk that you are not a Mongwaketse It shows that you are not thinking on the same lines but you are trying to act like them. But if you close his brains and say, I want you to walk this way, one cannot agree with you. The same thing applies to traditional dance which in Mokwena is called "borankana". When performing this dance, the dancers put on traditional leather strips and rattlers. This is all rubbish because they got all these from the television. They are doing what is called "go chonkola" which is not our tradition. At our region (Ngwaketse region) it is called "setapa" you dance till you drop dead. This "setapa" is when a poet recites a poem about the Chief saying what he thinks about the Chief. This is our tradition. These other ones is what we call "go chonkola" I have even made it clear to Bangwaketse that if Kgosi Seepapitso had allowed such kind of music, they might as well kiss it good -bye because I am not going to allow that to continue. This is Sesotho tradition, they have copied it from Basotho at the South African mines. Its very embarassing to see Batswana performing this dance "with their privates parts being seen by the public. When we talk about unity, there are so many ways to promote unity. For example, the Cubans do not have a traditional attire but they are united. I am sure we do not have Cuban investors in Botswana they just come and go back home because there is no place like home. Government can introduce policies to unite the nation but not the national attire which will restrict people. For example if say you tell the lady that is going out that she did not comb her hair, she will be mad with you because according to her she is fine. To manipulate people"s ideas is not a good thing , people are likely to rebel. I still maintain that there are so many ways of promoting unity. HONOURABLE MEMBER: One of them is the one regarding traditional attire. KGOSI GASEITSEWE: That one will not succeed because they must wear skirts. I do not think we can succeed because this nation is made up of different cultures that should be honoured. Copying the 81 Swazis and Sothos will not help because those are one nation under one Kingdom. So, their culture is the same. So, we can not copy them. Many countries do not have the national attire but they are united, countries such as Cuba, America and Britain. You cannot tell me the English have a national attire, the Scotts have theirs, the English are just like us in fact we have copied them. So, Mr Chairman, I do not think we could possibly have a national dress. Thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Kgosi. KGOSI KALABEN: Kgosi Gaborone had suggested that since this is not a controversial issue, only three speakers would do. Mr Chairman, when I look at the wording of the motion, and the way the mover has presented it, to me it was a request that this Honourable House request government to encourage Batswana to have a national dress. I had thought I would not speak I am prompted by Kgosi Gaseitsewe"s contribution to speak. The operative word is encourage. I do not know whether up to now government through the department of culture has not seen it fit to introduce the national dress. We are fortunate because the Minister is here even though his staff is not present. What concerns me most is the fact that it seems to me that Kgosi Gaseitsewe implies that it is compulsory for Batswana to wear this attire, no, the overall view here is for the government to encourage Batswana to have the national dress, not to compel them to wear it. People will obviously be encouraged to wear it if it is there. This has got nothing to do with anyone throwing away their culture. Normally the national dress is used on special occasions like Independence day. I watched with interest the opening ceremony of the Sydney Olympics, every participating nation had a specific outfit apart from the flag. It was spectacular, its a pity because I missed Botswana delegation. It is important for the government to encourage Batswana to have at least one that we could identify with, just like we have the national anthem. At the Olympics, when you are called upon to get your medal, the national anthem of your country is played, this is very encouraging and this shows that we are one nation regardless of the controversy concerning sections 77,78, and 79, we are one nation. The only unfortunate aspect is that, not everyone will put on the national dress. Those who feel like not putting on the national dress will not be forced to because there will be no compulsion on anybody to wear the national dress. But the majority of people will definitely like to wear such attire. We are aware of some Batswana who wear black on Independence day as a sign of mourning because they are not with us. When I say Batswana, I do not mean people with long hair, I mean real Batswana like me and you. They wear black because it is alleged they say they are not Batswana. Anyway, it is just a few delinquents, but even with the national dress, we will obviously have a few who will not be interested. But the majority of the people I can rest assure you, Mr Chairman, that even the children at home when they see others wearing the national dress they will demand that they too be dressed up. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI LINCHWE: Mr Chairman, I support the motion. While we encourage this idea within our perimeters, it is important to alert our government to encourage this idea. In the past we had people coming here to come and tell us that government has earmarked a certain amount of money for the construction of a cultural village at Tautswemogale. This house was just being briefed that we have accepted that plan and that it is where we are going, every group will be trying to set their cultural practice. What the mover is saying, Mr Chairman, is going to be relevant to plans of this nature, so that if at any time all the cultures that we have in this country are required to gather together, Mongwaketse could come dressed in his own way and a Mokgatla too. That way we will be representing the nation at large. And I feel that if this programme is sound, as Honourable Kalaben has already illustrated that some things hurt our fellow Batswana, when they are in other countries attending such games they can not come wearing national attire. We need to do something to promote that. If "mekobolo" are going to be worn ."Mekobolo" is a Sekgatla word. Let the men put on "mekobolo"... 82 HONOURABLE MEMBER: What are" mekobolo"? KGOSI MOTHIBE LINCHWE: "Mokobolo" is a tanned hide that is worn at the back. They are some of the things which will be truly reflecting our situation. I take it that in most of our villages men wear "mokobolo" while women wear something and that would really stand putting our government and our representatives in a pleasant situation that they are fully expected to promote. Even we as Chiefs some of us are Paramount Chiefs, at one stage your tribes took opportunity to dress you in royal attire at one stage we would like to see you dressed at that national unity that we are looking at. We will be here looking at our Chiefs dressed even in the House of Chiefs. This would really be in line with the service of this House. We might soon hear people say they are looking at us the Chiefs for this thing to come out. So let us not be late let us come up strongly. Mr Chairman, this is very important particularly for us as leaders. Thank you. MINISTER OF LABOUR AND HOME AFFAIRS (MR KWELAGOBE): I thank you Mr Chairman and the Honourable Chiefs in general, as they have deliberated. We are really supposed to forever pursue something that can build and unite us. Our intention in life is to understand, unite with and love one another. But if those things are lacking amidst us as a nation we get disunited and lost. So it is a good idea that we should look for something that can build us and bind us together. We at the Ministry of Labour and Home Affairs are not against this idea. We feel it is a good idea to implement. At Home Affairs we encourage you as tribal leaders to consult your tribes for them to come up with suggestions. I take it that we will choose attire that is appropriate to our seasons. I am saying that because one day in either 1971 or 1972 when I was in London for Commonwealth we were told to go outside for a group photo. It was my second time to see snow. The photographers delayed as we were still being arranged. A Swazi was wearing this piece of cloth that they put on. I felt sorry for him as he was thrashed by the cold. I mean that attire is good but as you think about it think about something that will cater for other things as well. I sometimes see the Afghan putting on their attire. You will not know whether that attire has been washed or not because the turbans are worn in an amazing way. Even what they are putting on the body is... But they like it. Even their army dresses like that even though we do not know what that is. Of course there are those who dress like Kgosi Seatla Gaseitsiwe was saying. Some put on dresses or skirts, the Scots, our great doctor Merriweather also used to dress like that sometimes. I saw recently on TV, the man who had usurped power in Fiji wearing a dress This dress was said to be their national attire. Then of course there are the Indians, some like we said dress according to their religion, the Sikh put on turbans, other Indians wrap sheets around thier bodies and that is when they are wearing the national attire. These things unite. Like Kgosi was telling us that he travelled with a Mosarwa countryman putting on his traditional attire, it is our attire but we cannot choose it since we could finish animals looking for their skins. If we can look for an attire I do not see a problem. My encouragement is that let our Chiefs go and talk to their people about this idea. Let it begin from the grassroots because several times it appears people reject somethings as they feel they are not the ones who initiated them, so they do not own that thing that you proposed. So it is better if they are told to come up with suggestions. After you have reached a consensus they will not reject it since it is coming from them. The problem is when it is from the top, government saying do that. Like he has said, Kgosi Jackalas, I do not know which Jackalas it is because I travelled to Jackalas 1 and Jackalas 2. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Jackalas 1. MR KWELAGOBE: At Jackalas 1, at "base ba phigile bo Lebengula"s place. The father to this Chief was an interesting person who did not like people arriving late but could not you tell as a Minister that you were late. So he would just look down and tell you that as you can see their footprints they were here but now they have left .They left because you came late. So you would not know whether the footprints were from the previous day. So, Honourable Chiefs I agree with you and I am saying it is better to start at the roots. The Department of Culture will work hand in hand with you as you will also be working hand in hand with 83 your tribes. At the end I think you will come up with something that we could say is our product, not something imposed on us. In brief, I thank you. KGOSI SEBELE I: Thank you Mr Chairman. Firstly, let me thank the members who have commented and those who have not,as I know even if they have not commented they concur with me. This motion"s intention was to ask government, as government has now also given a good suggestion, saying the idea is good, let it be implemented without imposing it. Basotho are one but they have differences. There are Basotho who come from different places, even BaSwati too, even we Batswana are like that. You cannot say they are under one person. Even though they are under one person they have different identities. We also have many institutions here, be they governmental or NGOs or otherwise. They have uniforms. The banks, Tribal Administration and Councils have uniforms which show identity. I am saying is something that stands and these people are doing it under no duress, it is the way they want to be identified. There are many other clubs such as football and our schools, right from primary to secondary they are identified according to their dress. Even after participating in various activities the school that has won, a by stander could simply tell by the uniform the name of the school that won the trophy. What I am simply saying is that this attire will be a unifying force and Batswana should take pride in it. In short let me thank the minister for the emphasis that he/she put in this motion to give it strength. In addition to the comments she/he cautioned that we should be cognisant of the weather conditions, that we might be forced to have two sets to cater for the changing weather conditions. Now it is upon Batswana to take strides, and designs should made that would suit both males and females. We are happy that the department of culture is there to also assist us in disseminating this information to all Batswana, while we appreciate that some things are possible provided money is available we shall all strive to make this possible. Kgosi Jackalas also mentioned that the department of culture are of the same idea, a good development that should be harnessed so that all Batswana are involved and informed. With those few remarks I thank you Mr Chairman. Question put and agreed to CONSTRUCTION OF SERVICE ROADS LEADING TO RANCHES CATTLE POSTS AND LANDS - MOTION KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you Mr Chairman. May I request this Honourable House to defer my motion to a later date. Motion deferred to a later date MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members this brings us to the end of this session. A complain has been raised about the motions and questions remaining, that can we not have an extension of some days so that we finish our business. We were not able reach the Leader of the House for extension, though an agreement in the House of Chiefs was reached that our sessions be limited to a minimum of three per year we have not been able to lodge our request with the Leader of the House. The President has also in writing advised us that the meetings of the House Chiefs is determined by government business not by questions and motions from the members. So we took advantage through our request to meet the National Commission of Inquiry chaired by Balopi or the Balopi commission. The question now is why a week instead of two weeks, the problem that has been identified is that by the time the Secretary of the House Chiefs request days for the meeting the questions and motions received at the time are sometimes not substantive enough to last two weeks. They are only received in large numbers on the day of the meeting, so it becomes difficult to justify our request for more days, that is why we were given only a week for a meeting. Thank you. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Mr Chairman I would like to suggest that, in bid to address this problem, that in the event the meeting is envisaged we be informed well in time so that we can bring in our questions and motions before the meeting starts. For example if the meeting is intended to commence in four weeks time, and we are given the first two weeks to bring in motions and questions at least we would have something in hand to justify the length of time for our meeting. MR CHAIRMAN: Besides three clear days before motions or two weeks before the house meets the notice for the meeting should be out, and we should give ourselves a deadline to have prepared the 84 questions and motions, so that we are in a position to say to the Secretariat here are our questions, go to the Vice President and request days for the meeting. That sounds a very good idea. SECRETARY OF THE HOUSE OF CHIEFS (MRS GAOBOTSE): When the Chairman started speaking, he said their business is more than the days allocated, but I would like to stress that even if the questions and motions are more does not justify a meeting for the House Chiefs. We only came here to meet the Balopi Commission which is regarded as government business. Government Business refers to Bills and Policies. Unlike Parliament where you find that they have two standing sessions per year, that is the November to December and the Budget session; the other mid session is for bills and policies meaning that there is no way they cannot meet and that is why its different from the House of Chiefs. KGOSI SEBELE I: Mr Chairman I would like to remind the House about something that questions and motions are brought well in time and every time we meet there are some that remain which could still be slotted in the other next meeting. I wonder why this arrangement is the way it is, there should always be a follow up to those questions and motions. This has been going on ever since I was a member of this House. For instance I had brought forward eight questions and four motions out of those I have asked a few questions the rest are remaining. I do not as to what do other Chiefs do if faced with the same situation. Do we have to submit these questions again or these would be put again in the order paper, or the questions will disappear as is always the case? SECRETARIAT: Point of clarification Mr Chairman. Normally three quarter of the questions that we have on the order paper on the first Monday are those that were not dealt with during the previous debate due to different reasons. Could be that the answering Minister was not ready then or owing to other reasons. Usually we phone the member originated the question informing that particular member that we are including his question in the order paper and whether he still wants it to be there or otherwise. We even follow up the issue upon arrival of the member here like I did with Kgosi Jackals "s questions. We try by all means to include in the order paper of the first day all those questions and motions that have remained from the previous meeting. If by any chance there is a question that has not been carried forward please let me know about it so that I arrange for it"s inclusion in the order paper. The last issue that you should note is that sometimes the question touch upon three different ministries hence it is not clear as to which ministry it falls under. Hence it get delayed pending the identification of the relevant ministry. Sometimes the question is referred back to the originator to frame it differently so as it may falls under only one ministry. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, really this issue is talked about time and again, what really can we do about it. This house should meet upon availability Government Business. It has been so many times such that I take it that our Secretariat should be proactive in ensuring that there is Government Business if they do their work with the commitment it takes. All the time they enquire from the ministers about the business as they believe that Government business emanates from the ministers only. They must enquire from the ministers about the issues they want to consult the House of Chiefs on. Like what happened here yesterday. I think we should have thrown Mr Kgoroba out because he was not in our schedule. But it was just out of sympathy and the kind of Minister he is that we allowed If he were the other Ministers, I would have said no, we are not allowing him to come here, even if he came to talk about something that was in our best interest, simply because he was not in our schedule. But I am saying from now on, for you to be able to draw the agenda, you must always go around and ask each ministry if they have anything they want to bring to the attention of the House of Chiefs in the foreseeable future. You must put that down on the paper to create that Government Business which you say you want. It is your duty as secretariat to do so. Otherwise if you do not do that I do not consider your reason of convening the house upon availability of Government business a valid one. This is because the Constitution is here and people must read the Constitution, and get correctly the duties of the House of Chiefs. The constitution does not only talk about the what you Government Business. That one is talked about by the Clerk of the National Assembly. For the first time I got that from the Clerk. I have not seen it in any of the statutes that govern the operation of this House. 85 MR CHAIRMAN: It was said by Mr Mogae, when he was the Vice President. MR KALABEN: He was briefed by the Clerk. Clerk whispered that to him. But in the statutes that supersede views that are held by some individuals, there is no where mentioned that Government business, is the only one that must take priority in the duties of this House. there is nothing hence I say you secretariat must be proactive in initiating government business to be discussed by this House. Familiarise yourselves with the National development Plan, standardisation and all that. You must create that Government business as against the motions and questions from the House, of which in terms of the Constitution, "this House will be entitled to discuss any matter within the Executive and Legislative Authority of Botswana". Which it considers, it is desirable to take ... of in the interest of the tribes and tribal organisations it represents and to make representations thereon to the President." This is not recognised. I fail to understand, but we are not here to be discussing with the Clerk of the National Assembly, on whether this is Government Business, or not. As far as we are concerned it is National business if the chiefs talk about those issues that affect their respective tribes and is enshrined here in the Constitution. These are the things that you are supposed to do. I do not want to accept the interpretation of the Clerk. I want to end by stating that this house is not held in good regard . You always make excuses so that the house does not sit. .. While we are still there Mr Chairman, yesterday I did raise an issue of "Terms of Reference", that have been deferred. Before they came in here and after we adjourned they remained here and caucused on the issues. They sought the advice of the Attorney General, on the issue of those Terms Of References. This is a national issue, and a very important one, that, somehow, we must bring it to the attention of the President. If we can leave it to these people, somebody, will not convey that message with the spirit we brought up the issue with. We wanted to show that, somewhere along the line, there is something wrong, as there is... MR CHAIRMAN: On a point of clarification, but I remember the last time Mr Balopi explained, he said that it seems you have two differing documents, the other one being a fax whilst the other being a draft. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, the thing we did not want to argue. We brought that up in good faith. those terms of Reference were agreed upon by the Executive, and handed over to the Attorney General, to write them in legal language, and interpret those, that was not in the... MR CHAIRMAN: What Mr Balopi said was that after the a se Attorney General has written that in legal language, then the president would append a seal and cause that to be published in the Gazette. KGOSI KALABEN: Mr Chairman, in our experience as former civil servants, sometimes they just agree and sign the statutory instrument and is handed for printing, and somewhere along the line it is the minister calls it back. Just like it happened the other time with the regulations we did here and agreed them. It turned out later that they did not do what we agreed upon, but if we did not check the accuracy, we could have just signed the document and passed it. MR CHAIRMAN: So President has just signed it without checking? KGOSI KALABEN: He signed without reading because he thought that was done in good faith. KGOSI SEBELE I: Mr Balopi was being one sided yesterday. He should have produced the original that was used by the Attorney General to produce the gazzetted Terms of References to check if it is any different from the one that we have. He did not. What we are saying is that, the Terms of Reference as originally proposed by the Office of the President, read like this. But then this is a different reading, from the draftsman, that is what we are saying, that why does it go outside entirely without saying the language which was originally spoken by the Office of the President entirely. They did not develop what was originated by the Office of the President, We have two parallel documents which are not the same, that is why we are so suspicious. 86 MR CHAIRMAN: Mr Balopi said he had the gazzetted one. He has even consulted the Permanent Secretary to the President to explain the Terms further. And it surfices that what the Honourable members have is just a draft. KGOSI SEBELE I: Yes indeed he said so, but that is not convincing. MR CHAIRMAN: So what we want is to go to the President and say really this is not what you proposed. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: In all fairness if a matter is proposed, normally there is a draft that is circulated in the stakeholders for comments. After that, it is handed to the relevant authority to the final version of what Government wants to put to people. But if the members want to satisfy themselves by looking at the first version or the other pages since he had one page pulled from the rest, let that be. KGOSI KALABEN: If you may know how it is. The Terms of Reference that appear in the Government notice, says "To review Section 77,78,79 of the Constitution and to seek a construction that would enable any interpretation that renders the Sections discriminatory". Those that originate from the Executive say, "To review the concerned Section of the Constitution and seeks formulation that would eliminate the misconceptions surrounding the stipulation of Constitution. Particularly in the light of the fact that no section of the Constitution discriminates on tribal basis". MR CHAIRMAN: What makes that an official document that you have been reading? KGOSI KALABEN: It comes from Office of the President. MR CHAIRMAN: What I mean is what makes it an official document, does it have a seal or even a stamp? KGOSI KALABEN: It comes from the Office of the President. MR CHAIRMAN: What I mean is what makes it any different from this? Has the President signed that one? Who signed it? KGOSI KALABEN: I did not want us to tour that line. The thing was merely to express to the President, our fear that his mandate was not executed accordingly by those responsible. MR CHAIRMAN: So he signed without reading it. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: But Kgosi, we cannot express a concern to the President without any evidence, that indeed it is true. We should request for the other information to since there are two versions, to be able to support our concern and point out what went wrong and where did the draftsman change the essence of the President original issue. It is like that, but the one sent to the public and used by the Commission is different. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions)… KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Or when they were given they ..... KGOSI KALABEN: For the benefit of the House, if you were to listen to the wording used in the terms of reference appearing in the Government Notice "To review Sections 77, 78, 79 of the Constitution and to seek a construction that would enable any interpretation that renders the sections discriminatory. Now the one from the executive read thus "To review the concerned sections of the constitution and seek formulations that would eliminate the misconceptions surrounding the stipulations of the constitution, particularly in the light of the fact that no section of the constitution discriminates on tribal basis." That is what .... 87 MR CHAIRMAN: What makes the later an official document? KGOSI KALABEN: It is from the Office of the President; MR CHAIRMAN: I am referring to the one that you just read. KGOSI KALABEN: It is from the Office of the President, I said. MR CHAIRMAN: What makes it an official document, does it have a seal, a stamp ..... KGOSI KALABEN: No, but it is from the Office of the President. MR CHAIRMAN: What then does it make it any different from this other one. KGOSI KALABEN: (Inaudible) MR CHAIRMAN: Convince me that ..... since the President has signed this other one, what about the one that you have. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Can I intervene on a point of clarification. KGOSI KALABEN: I did not want us to go that far, as to what differentiate the two terms of reference. We were merely expressing our fear that probably the President"s directive has not been carried out properly. MR CHAIRMAN: Did he just sign without having read? KGOSI KALABEN: Yes; KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: No, we cannot express our fear to His Excellency about something we are not sure of, no we can"t. We have to be sure as to whether something went wrong somewhere before we can take action; there has to be substantive evidence. We can ask for the last instruction that was passed and use it. We should ensure why the previous one was changed. Probably they have been given an instruction to change the phrasing of the terms of reference. We can get that from the written evidence of the last instruction that is when we can act. KGOSI BESELE II MONTSHIOA: I propose a closed session, so that we can talk about this in camera and give other people the lime light of what is written. If we are not careful as the House of Chiefs, they will be chaos. Sometimes we see things and we merely take them for granted. For instance, not too late, the President was deliberately made to err by allowing elections to go on before the voters roll was compiled and publicised as a requirement of the law and it is high time these things are prevented from occurring. I therefore propose a closed session to enable other Members to know what is happening. MR CHAIRMAN: We have not adjourned yet. Kgosi Sebele"s motion of proposal to a closed session has been seconded by Kgosi Kalaben. Question put and agreed to. MR CHAIRMAN: There is no one who is against this motion therefore it shall be carried. Do we proceed straight away, I do not know what our rules have to say on this one. THE SECRETARY: …(Inaudible)… ADJOURNMENT The House accordingly adjourned at 3.50 o"clock p.m. sine die. 88 . 89