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Thanking the Longbeards
This piece resulted from discussions at David "The Rise of the Stupid Network" Isenberg's BigHook Conference last fall http://www.isen.com I presented it there and have edited it to reflect some of what I learned from BigHook's spirited (the word "asshole" was used at least twice) discussion of it. --David Weinberger
Because the infrastructure of the Internet was designed by humans, it represents particular human values. For example, the Net could have been architected to ensure that intellectual property is protected, that all interactions are tagged so they can be traced to individuals, or so that some packets have priority and thus can be sold to those with cash to burn. (Actually, for the last apparently there is an unexploited Net capability.) But it wasn't architected that way. Someone decided otherwise.
Who? Ultimately, it was the Internet "long beards" who share some characteristics: generally white, male, Western, and all highly technical.[1] These are the folks who (again, in general) continue to make decisions about the Net's technical future. Certainly there are organized opportunities for others to comment, but even though this lets in a somewhat more varied group, inevitably those whose comments count are also technically-minded.
Just as journalists tend to favor free speech, artists value creativity, and beauty queens like make-up, engineers tend to share some values.[2] Engineers, for reasons rooted in what they found pleasurable about engineering in the first place, tend to value open communication, to listen to opinions that are fact-based, and to respect people for what they know and contribute rather than for what their business cards say. It's no coincidence that the network they built enables the open, uncontrolled sharing of information.
How explicit are the political values of the Internet? I had a chance to talk about this with Scott Bradner, a literal Internet long beard, at BigHook. While Scott admitted that the infrastructure is loaded with values, he maintains they are first and foremost not political values. The designers set out to build a system that doesn't require modification to be extended and configured for particular uses. The designers' aim was to move packets along briskly while enabling you to add your layers of censorship or IP protection or multimedia streaming or pornographic body suits without requiring the Internet infrastructure to be rearchitected.
But, as Tom Lehrer has taught us, there's no avoiding the political values of science and technology. Lehrer--our finest lyricist until Eminem--wrote a song about Werner Von Braun, the German scientist who built rockets for the Nazis during WWII and for the US after the War: "Once they go up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department, says Werner von Braun." Lehrer's question holds for people doing AIDS research as well as for Nazis; it has nothing to do with the content of the politics.[3]
To achieve the engineering aim of being capable of being extended without requiring changes to the core infrastructure, the long beards built a system with no built--in checks on the data being carried. Value free? Ask China or the Taliban or orthodox Jews or many Christian communities, all of whom see value in protecting their communities from "assault" by temptations and other bad influences. "For engineering reasons," the long beards in effect are saying "we've built a system that will provide open access to ideas and images you consider corrosive. Ok?" To many communities, the answer is a definite "No, it'snot ok."
It only seemed ok to the long beards because the engineering principles that led to the Net's design were consistent with the basic free-speech libertarianism[4] of its designers. If the Net subverts the plans of the Taliban, the Internet long beards will by and large cheer (as of course will I, but that is precisely not the point) while maintaining that the design of the Net was based on engineering, not political, principles. But the political principles are in fact in part responsible for the decision to build the Net in the first place. Had the engineers designing the Internet been members of the Taliban, they would not have found the idea of building an open, uncontrolled system any more appealing than most Western engineers find the idea of building a gun that can turn any material into an armor-piercing bullet "without requiring any redesign of the gun's fundamental architecture." The design values implicit in the architecture of the Net simultaneously instantiate a set of political values generally shared by the engineering community; that was part of the appeal of working on the Net project in the first place. The most important "unintended consequences" of the Net--a permission-free environment for creating and sharing information--are in fact predictable, foreseen and--one way or another--intended.[5]
Two consequences follow from this. First, technical, architectural discussions always ought to occur within the context of the human and political values that inevitably guide them. Second, those of us who think that the values the Internet instantiates are good values ought to thank the long beards not just for their technical skill but for making the world a better place.
So: Thank you.
Exculpatory Footnotes
[1] Please keep in mind that generalizations are true if they are generally true; a generalization is generally not true in each and every case. Pointing out exceptions does not prove the generalization false.
[2] See note #1
[3] That is, please don't write to tell me that the designers of the Internet aren't Nazis.
[4] I'm using "libertarian" in its original John Stuart Mill sense, not the Ayn Rand "Selfishness is good" sense. Before flaming me, please read Mill's On Liberty and include a book report in a nice binder. (Stapled submissions will be lowered one half grade.)
[5] If you haven't read Lawrence Lessig's Code, consider it a class assignment.
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Doc Searls is Senior Editor of Linux Journal
Re: Thanking the Longbeards
the long beards built a system with no built--in checks on the data being carried. Value free? Ask China or the Taliban or orthodox Jews or many Christian communities, all of whom see value in protecting their communities from "assault" by temptations and other bad influences.
I am an Orthodox Jew and I feel, I think justifiably, offended at your lumping me in with communist China and the Taliban. I certainly am not in favor of censoring the internet for anyone else, and am myself one of the "longbeard" (literally) internet engineers your piece speaks of. I, and my community, value intellectual pursuit for it's own sake; one reason why many scientists are Jewish. (Though of course many are also the Anglo-Saxon longbeards of your piece, as well as Indian, Chinese, and other groups either ignored or maligned in this article.)
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Analysts' Actions: CVS FISV FOSL MRO YUM
NEW YORK ( TheStreet) -- CHANGE IN RATINGS
BP (BP) was upgraded to buy at TheStreet Ratings.
CVS Caremark (CVS) was downgraded at Cantor Fitzgerald to hold from buy. Valuation call, based on a $62 price target, Cantor said.
Fiserv (FISV) was upgraded at Sterne Agee to buy from neutral. $120 price target. Company should deliver higher internal sales growth this year, given better end-market conditions, Sterne Agee said.Fossil (FOSL) was downgraded at Citigroup to neutral from buy. Based on valuation and despite global growth opportunity, said Citi. Price target goes to $135. (MDR) was downgraded at DA Davidson to neutral from buy. $7.25 price target. Losses are broadening, DA Davidson said. Mead Johnson (MJN) was upgraded at Credit Suisse to outperform from neutral. $90 price target. Company should benefit from competitor recalls, Credit Suisse said. Marathon Oil (MRO) was downgraded at Bank of America/Merrill Lynch to neutral. Valuation call, based on a $42 price target, BofA/Merrill said. OneBeacon (OB) was downgraded to hold at TheStreet Ratings. Yum! Brands (YUM) was upgraded at Bank of America/Merrill Lynch to neutral from underperform. $79 price target. Market is more willing than expected to look through China issues, BofA/Merrill said.
Stock Comments / EPS ChangesAECOM Technology (ACM) numbers were cut at UBS. Estimates were reduced as backlog conversion is taking longer than expected, said UBS. Price target is reduced to $33. American International (AIG) numbers were increased at BMO Capital. Estimates were raised through 2014. Business turnaround is on course, BMO Capital said. Outperform rating and new $55 price target. BlackRock (BLK) price target was raised at Citigroup to $285. The company remains on message with regard to positioning, organic growth, margins and capital returns, Citi said. Charles River Laboratories (CRL) price target was raised at Jefferies to $57. Company is a relative value with an improving outlook in a CRO sector with very high investor enthusiasm, Jefferies said. Buy rating. (CSCO) price target boosted at BMO Capital to $29. Expect strong earnings and guidance from the company on Aug. 14, BMO Capital said. Outperform rating.
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subset: commoncrawl


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Oakland Raiders RB Michael Bush Arrested
Updated On: Feb 14 2011 10:49:01 AM EST
Oakland Raiders running back Michael Bush was arrested and charged with OWI in Indiana early Saturday, according to the Clark County Jail.
Bush was arrested at about 4:30 a.m. in Jeffersonville for allegedly driving while intoxicated, according to Clark County police. He was booked into the Clark County Jail.
Bush is from Louisville. He played football for Louisville Male High School and the University of Louisville.
Copyright 2012 by WLKY.com. ©2012 Hearst Properties Inc. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


text:
note to farrow and ball
Saturday, June 23, 2007 at 3:16 PM
a perfect compromise
Tuesday, June 19, 2007 at 6:11 PM
i wanted somewhere outside to read, relax, write, enjoy a beer, escape, but couldnt really justify using up space that could produce food
so, inspiration - a kiwi tipi
in time the leaves will grow over the whole structure, dangling their fruit inside the tipi for a greedy me to eat
a different kind of fruit salad
Thursday, June 14, 2007 at 2:28 PM
there's a strange lull in the action that's just ended. after the fuss of flowering things seem to go quiet, there's actually a huge amount happening but after the eyecatching colourshow the slow stretch of green growth goes on side stage
but now the fruit is getting established, and among it some potential new flavours including from one of the two apricot trees kept back in the polytunnel
the stunning edible fuschia fruit - tasting like kiwi with a squirt of blackcurrant
the still growing, ripening nectarines and peaches (watchout HFW!)
the delicious edible honeysuckle (a shrub rather than a climber)
the mulberries, ready to colour up
climate change allotment
Saturday, June 9, 2007 at 6:58 PM
the concept of climate change food and climate change growing seems to be taking the step from people being interested in what we're doing here to actually finding their own way of building some of the thinking into their 'patch'. from farmers to courtyard-owning urbanites, i get a fairly constant stream of queries and questions, and it seems about time i tried setting down a few ideas and figuring out how the ideas behind climate change farming might work for those with different resources and opportunities to otter farm. given that not everyone has almost exactly 17 acres, im going to try to satisfy the owners of that most common of patches, the allotment.
i'm genuinely envious of allotmenters, and not as some reciprocal faux-envy intended to balance out that most allotmenters seem to be frustrated smallholders and therefore envy me my patch, but it is all the things smallholding isnt. amongst other things, smallholding is mostly (wonderfully) solitary, generally exhausting, and endlessly frustrating. allotmenting strikes me if not entirely socialable as such then something altogether preferable (at least to this semisocial solitude seeker), being quietly, sweetly, companionable - brushing you up against mr different class, mrs other nationality, while you demonstrate that have something fundamentally alike. i crave the drop in scale, the intimate. the small tools, the physical rather than the mechanical.
it's reassuring that after 400 years or so, these organised commons are still with us, protected by a few acts that compell our local authorities to ensure "adequate provision" of land for us commoners to cultivate, but what actually what makes an allotment an allotment? i find there's refreshingly little in the way of common rules - even my perception of the allotment shed as repository of extensive soft porn publications seems almost entirely without foundation.
sizewise there's some commonality - a 16th of an acre, 250m2 seems the roughest approximation of apportionment, although in truth there's much variety - in planning the climate change allotment i find that the best site is under this area by perhaps a quarter, so i intend to allow myself a little compensatory latitude, and do without the compulsory shed (i'll keep the tools - and notional porn collection - in the farm barn)
it's also a weird shape, has stoney patches, is aligned south-north (the 4m side is due north) and therefore perpendicular to the ideal, but allotmenting seems to thrive on such limitations, and while this will be far from a typical allotment in content, it will have authentic beginnings, real limitations and some opportunities
it's cleared, dug, rotovated
watch this space
start thinking again
Saturday, June 2, 2007 at 8:58 PM
the old camera's been playing up and i cant seem to think of much to say without taking pictures, even though so much is happening...hence the long gap in posting
got a new one now though, so maybe i can start thinking again
Go to Otter Farm | by Mark D


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…here's why he would have voted for it if he had been in Congress in 1996:
"While marriage is licensed and otherwise regulated by the states, government did not create the institution of marriage. In fact, the institution of marriage most likely pre-dates the institution of government! Government regulation of marriage is based on state recognition of the practices and customs formulated by private individuals interacting in civil society. Many people associate their wedding day with completing the rituals and other requirements of their faith, thus being joined in the eyes of their church and their creator, not with receiving their marriage license, thus being joined in the eyes of the state.
If I were in Congress in 1996, I would have voted for the Defense of Marriage Act, which used Congress's constitutional authority to define what official state documents other states have to recognize under the Full Faith and Credit Clause, to ensure that no state would be forced to recognize a "same sex" marriage license issued in another state."
(I'm only posting this because I've heard a few people in the MSM claim that he actually voted for it. What Paul did sign was the 2007 Marriage Protection Act.)
UPDATE: Michael Johnson notes:
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
Where is this Authority Congress possesses to EXCEPT public Acts, Records and judicial Proceedings from being given Full Faith and Credit?
A cursory bit of research reveals the phrase "and the effect thereof" does not provide for exceptions to public acts, records and judicial proceedings being given Full Faith and Credit by all States, but serves to provide that these records be given the same footing in other jurisdictions as the original. For instance, it gives them the same faith and credit, as they have in the State court, from which they are taken. If in such court they have the faith and credit of the highest nature, that is to say, of record evidence, they must have the same faith and credit in every other court. So, that Congress have declared the effect of the records, by declaring, what degree of faith and credit shall be given to them. If a judgment is conclusive in the State, where it is pronounced, it is equally conclusive every where. If re-examinable there, it is open to the same inquiries in every other state.8:04 pm on January 4, 2012 Email David Kramer


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Bank of America Still a Giant Mortgage Casino: Street Whispers
It seems likely, for better or for worse, that banks will be allowed to do a great deal of hedging when the final rule is written. And so investors will still have to determine which bank they think is best at "managing interest rate risk," as they will put it, though the difference between that activity and gambling will always be a matter of interpretation.
-- Written by Dan Freed in New York.
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text:
It was a question such as this that prompted the male author to write the following article in the Huffington post. He is tired of working moms of putting down his wife because she is SAH:
Look, I don't cast aspersions on women who work outside of the home. I understand that many of them are forced into it because they are single mothers, or because one income simply isn't enough to meet the financial needs of their family. Or they just choose to work because that's what they want to do. Fine. I also understand that most "professional" women aren't rude, pompous and smug, like the two I met recently.
But I don't want to sing Kumbaya right now. I want to kick our backwards, materialistic society in the shins and say, "GET YOUR FREAKING HEAD ON STRAIGHT, SOCIETY."
This conversation shouldn't be necessary. I shouldn't need to explain why it's insane for anyone -- particularly other women -- to have such contempt and hostility for "stay at home" mothers. Are we really so shallow? Are we really so confused? Are we really the first culture in the history of mankind to fail to grasp the glory and seriousness of motherhood? The pagans deified Maternity and turned it into a goddess. We've gone the other direction; we treat it like a disease or an obstacle.


text:
Volunteer Appreciation
10:48 AM on Tuesday, April 17th, 2012No Comments
Over the past eight months, my responsibilities here at the Regional Food Bank have included scheduling volunteer groups to come and work in our Volunteer Center, and following up with them afterwards. I am constantly surprised at how much the words 'Thank you' are used during those conversations and email exchanges. I'm not surprised at how much I say it. I say it a lot, and I'll come back to that in a moment. I'm surprised at how much the volunteers say it.
Here are some examples:
"Thank you so much for getting our group scheduled. Our team is so excited to come and help!"
"Volunteering last Saturday was great! Everyone in my group was inspired by the act of helping others, and made aware of how truly grateful we are for our living circumstances. Thanks a million!"
"Thank you for the wonderful experience for my daughter and I to share. She had just turned 8 so I was a little concerned she may not be able to do what was planned for us. When her little arms got tired from packing backpacks you found something she COULD do! Thank you!!! She hasn't stopped talking about all the little kids she helped. WE will definitely be back!"
I'm going to be honest. It's a little bit awkward for me to receive thanks like this. I mean, think about it. We've asked you to give up some of the precious time from your busy schedule to come and perform unpaid manual labor. You've agreed to do so, we've scheduled an appointment, you've followed through with great enthusiasm. That's amazing. It's amazing for one person do to it so willingly, but you aren't one person, are you? We get over 3,000 volunteers each month who donate their time and enthusiasm to our mission of "Fighting Hunger … Feeding Hope." Volunteers are the driving force behind the work we do here at the Regional Food Bank. Did you know that you saved us over $2 million in manual labor costs last year?
And after all that, you thank me?
We already can't thank you enough to begin with, but I'm going to keep on trying. This week is National Volunteer Appreciation Week. I hope we appreciate you every week of the year, but I'm going to borrow this platform to say it again:
Thank YOU volunteers. Thank you ever so much. We genuinely couldn't do this work without you, and I hope you know that.
Thank you.
The Working Poor: Invisible in America
11:25 AM on Wednesday, April 4th, 2012No Comments
Several weeks ago I had the opportunity to travel to Washington, D.C. to attend the 2012 National Anti-Hunger Policy Conference, which was cosponsored by FRAC and Feeding America. This annual conference provides the chance for hundreds of anti-hunger advocates from all corners of the U.S. to convene for the purposes of learning and promoting best practices, hearing stories of both tremendous need and triumph over barriers to food security within our respective communities, and also to share the voice of the hungry and poverty-stricken with our nation's leaders.
The conference opened with headlining speaker David Shipler, Pulitzer Prize winning author of The Working Poor: Invisible in America, who spoke about his years spent traveling across the country trying to capture the true nature of what it means to be an American family living the daily fight against poverty. What Shipler primarily found through speaking with thousands of hardworking individuals and families was a common denominator between those who were employed but still facing the constant climb to find a way out of poverty and into the land of enough – and this common denominator nearly always involved hunger and food insecurity. After the demands of rent, utilities, transportation, and even medical costs often necessary to keep one earning a paycheck, food is usually the only semi-optional expense left on the table (certainly no pun intended). When one's entire budget is subject to the immediacy of what is necessary to sustain a basic functioning of one's life, how can we expect hardworking Americans in poverty to lift themselves out of their current situation, and further, how are we surprised when we find out that hunger is real in the United States and in our own communities?
This question was perhaps the purpose of the culmination of the week's events into the final day of the conference, in which advocates met with their members of Congress to discuss the unacceptable problem of hunger and lobby for workable solutions. I had the pleasure of meeting with several of our Congressmen and their staffers, including Congressman Frank Lucas, the Chairman of the House Committee on Agriculture. We spoke about what Oklahoma's food banks have been facing in the past year – a sharp decline in USDA Commodities (53%), rising food insecurity represented through record amounts of Oklahomans having to enroll in SNAP (over 620,000), nearly half of which are children, and our partner agencies that have experienced a 30 – 50 percent increase in the need for emergency food assistance in just the past fiscal year. Most importantly, we discussed the ongoing issue of the Farm Bill, which is the single largest piece of legislation affecting our industry in that it provides dollars that go to vital federal nutrition programs and every type of federal distribution of emergency food assistance. Through speaking with Chairman Lucas, it became clear to me that we are fortunate to have a decision-maker in Congress that seems to truly understand the vast scope of the problem that hunger represents, and that it will not only take supporting emergency assistance programs like SNAP and TEFAP, but that it also requires systemic changes that help support and grow the capacity of our local systems of agriculture.
However, one or even a handful of leaders that understand the problem and its possible solutions are not enough. Chairman Lucas impressed upon me that garnering awareness and support for anti-hunger efforts, and subsequently the passing of a just Farm Bill, will take the work of many constituents keeping in frequent contact with their legislators involved throughout all areas of Congress. If your members aren't called and don't receive letters or emails about the reality of hunger in the communities that they represent, they simply can't know the full scope of the problem, and they certainly can't devise effective solutions on their own. Regardless of the exhaustion we face over the seemingly increasing divisiveness in the political arena, important issues still need to be heard, and hunger is an inexcusable problem that crosses all party lines. If you've never contacted your legislators and would like some information on how to easily navigate the system, please explore the links below. I am also always available to answer any questions related to hunger-related legislation and how we can be effective advocates together!
Contact your Legislator:
Five Practical Advocacy Tools Information Packet
Electoral Advocacy:
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Torri Christian
Public Policy Manager


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text: 5 Amazing!stuebee | 28/07/2010 | See all stuebee's reviews (3)After reading the only review for this disc, I wanted to add my own - As I could not disagree more with the other (clearly not a Josh Groban fan) reviewer...The Awake tour contains a new collection of stunning, and beautiful songs, as well as many classics...The sound and picture quality are exceptional, and any fan would adore this dvd...So don't be put off by the other review... If you're a fan of Josh, you'll be a fan of this dvd...Oh, and if you get a chance to see him LIVE - Do it!! It's an experience you won't forget!!


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These red and white striped mini treat boxes are perfect for small gifts or treats for your next party. Perfect for weddings, birthdays, and showers of all kinds. Each one has a handle, like a gable box. 3" x 13/4" x 3". 6 count. Some assembly required.
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jesus christ...my parents are so stupid. i hate them so much. just because they're narrow minded makes them know everything. fuck it. i totally don't want to end up like them. they don't approve of anything. jesus. annnnyways....yup...mmm...i dunno. they just really piss me off. oh well...school starts on the 3rd...i'm not ready for preseason in two weeks...i don't know if i even want to play field hockey. anyways...that's it for now...
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The Value of Theology
"It is very strange. But we Christians often seem to be completely unconvinced of the power of thought with regard to our Christian faith." (Karl Rahner)
I'm currently in my sixth year of studying academic theology. (I've posted before about how I ended up in this area.) Despite those inevitable moments of feeling tired of it all, on the whole I honestly can't imagine doing anything more engaging. However, I'm all too aware that from the point of view of many Latter-day Saints, what I'm studying is worthless at best, and possibly even downright harmful. It's nothing but the philosophies of the world, I repeatedly hear. It denies the value of revelation. And so on.
Obviously I don't have a terribly objective perspective on this; it's going to be no surprise to anyone that I think the subject is a worthwhile one to study. However, I have noticed that those who quickly dimiss theology aren't always all that familiar with it.
A crucial point, I think, is that theology is second-order discourse. It's a reflection on faith, and it draws on such sources as scripture, tradition, and experience. (The relative value of these sources varies, of course, depending on your denominational background and general outlook.) I think that many Latter-day Saints get nervous about theology because they see it as making truth claims equivalent to those of these primary sources, and therefore usurping the role of revelation. However, this is not how I understand the theological project. Theological reflection is dependent on these sources; it is not equivalent to them, or meant as a substitute for them.
Because of this, I don't agree with the claim that theology is what happens in the absence of revelation. I don't see how theology would even exist without revelation. This also means, I believe, that continuing revelation and theological reflection are quite compatible. From an LDS perspective, I don't understand why continuing revelation would not be simply an additional source for theology. Nor do I see why continuing revelation would render theology unnecessary; we inevitably try to make sense of revelation in the context of our own experience–and to do that is to do theology.
One of the weaknesses of theology as it has often traditionally been done, I think, is an excessive tendency toward the abstract. My own view is that the real power of theology is actually in its connection to lived experience. As I see it, theological questions actually matter a great deal for the way in which I live my life: if I believe that God is involved in the minute details of the world or if I think God is more hands-off, if I believe that I have to acheive a certain level of goodness before grace will kick in, if I believe that freedom exists, how I make sense of evil–all of those have real implications for how I experience the world on a daily basis. Theology and praxis continually shape one another, as our beliefs influence our behavior and vice versa.
There are many things I enjoy about working in this field. But perhaps what I value the most about it is my sense that it's a place where people combine serious faith commitments with a willingness to ask hard questions about their beliefs, which is something I really felt starved for when I was growing up. And though it's certainly posed challenges to it at times, the study of theology has also tremendously enriched my own faith. The sentiment which I periodically encounter–that it's no more than the uninspired speculations of those who lack access to real truth–hasn't remotely matched my experience with the subject.
People occasionally ask me why Mormons don't have much of a theological tradition. I don't really know what to tell them. But I think it's unfortunate that we don't, and I'm encouraged to see indications that this might be changing. In the Middle Ages, theology was the queen of the sciences. My own hopes are rather more modest. I'd simply like to see it have a place at the table.
- 21 January 2007
37 Responses to "The Value of Theology"
Amen Lynnette. The whole "theology is what happens in the absence of revelation" thing never made any sense to me. It always strikes me as something someone came up with to be witty, but which unwittingly revealed that they didn't know what theology was.
All Mormons have beliefs about God. Those who take them seriously enough to think through their implications, attempt to resolve inconsistencies, and explore their ramifications, engage in theology. People who disparage theology either don't know what it is, or don't care a wit about their religious beliefs.
What a pleasure it is to read this post! I've shared many of your frustrations as an academic and a Mormon whose first intellectual love is philosophy. Philosophy and theology share the same bed, albeit the latter's specific aim is to consider with God as a consideration. I often wonder why LDS religious culture treats these subjects like intellectual and spiritual lepers when in reality there is so much wealth to be found in them. My ponderings of Nietzsche's writing, for example, especially On the Genealogy of Morals continually makes me revisit what I define as "good" and why I choose to be a Christian. I find the affirmations to these challenges among the most holy things that I am capable of, right up there with praying. To ignore these amazing avenues for intellectual and spiritual growth is a tragedy.
I enjoyed your post very much.
I do not have much background in this area, and would like to catch up. I enjoy the discussions that are both philosophical/theological and faithful – as long as I do not feel to much like a dope.
Thanks for your thoughts here. I often feel that there is a faithfulness possibly associated with digging in to the revelations and exploring the implications. In a way a search for more light.
A great post, Lynnette. I think that detractors of theology are generally people who believe that texts interpret themselves. Such people are often surprised, even horrified, to learn that competing interpretations of LDS scripture exist and are even ratified at the highest levels of the church. To take a fun example, there are at least two major interpretive traditions regarding the Book of Mormon's doctrine of grace and works: one emphasizing grace, and another emphasizing works. The famous "saved by grace after all we can do" statement becomes a central text for both traditions — because the text itself could either mean that we do our best work and then grace makes up the difference, or that grace does everything, regardless of how much we do.
Theology without revelation might be seen as a mill without grain. Revelation without theology, though, is just sound and fury, because texts don't interpret themselves.
One of the weaknesses of theology as it has often traditionally been done, I think, is an excessive tendency toward the abstract.
Big Amen to that. Nice post.
Wow. Excellent post Lynette. I hope you don't mind if I reference it in the future. As you may know, Mormon theology is our thang over at the Thang.
I loved this retort of yours to the "theology is what happens in the absence of revelation" zinger:
I don't see how theology would even exist without revelation.
As you and others said — Mormons create personal theologies as much as any other group whether we admit it or not. We just seem to have a cultural bias against openly talking about theology or doing a decent job of it for some reason. I agree with you that the tide may be slowly turning on that though.
"theology is what happens in the absence of revelation", I believe, leans more toward the classical theological ideas, such as the nicene creed, or the concept espoused for some time in theological circles that everything is ineffable and no treatise can go beyond that, etc. My wife's Grandfather has my copy of the book where Terryl Givens makes this statement, but I will try to find it and produce it in context.
Theology definitely does exist without revelation. Otherwise, there would only be one church.
This does not mean 1.> Theology hasn't grown up. 2.> Everyone using philosophy or theology as tools to glean information are evil. or 3.> Theology doesn't have it's own excellent qualities.
I beleive the above statement is merely an acceptance, more or less, of the fact that relative truth is what is available to man, and is the best man will achieve. (Now that soudnds worse than it actually is) I beleive absolute truth is available to God, and we can receive it from him, but as we recieve it, the best we can make of it is still relative truth, it seems.
Lynette, maybe if you just referred to your discipline as "religious philosophy" it would sound friendlier to Mormon listeners. I like your point that theology doesn't offer an alternative set of truth claims, but generally works with the truth claims asserted by a particular denomination or faith. I'm not sure that's 100% accurate, but it does make theology sound less threatening.
Theology definitely does exist without revelation. Otherwise, there would only be one church.
MW, I think this might bean example of the kind of misperception I discussed in my comment #4. If you think there's any revelation at all in the Bible, then your comment is demonstrably wrong. In general, any given revelation is always compatible with multiple theologies because the text by which the revelation becomes shared beyond its original recipient does not, and cannot, interpret itself.
RT- So, revelation, in short, is intended for the original recipient. What's so difficult about that?
Ah, Matt isn't a Mormon after all! I'm surprised to learn that you don't regard the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants to be scripture!
Do you distinguish somehow between revelation and sacred texts? That is, in your view, are the scriptures not revelation? That would dramatically clarify your perspective for me, although I would still be inclined to disagree. After all, people do tend to follow prophets, don't they? Which inherently involves processes of interpretation.
Note: the first paragraph in my comment was irony. Doesn't necessarily come across well in print…
My personal view, frankly is that when we receive the words of the prophets, we need revelation to interpret them correctly. Thus we may be recieving scripture from the prophet, but we still need revelation to confirm it to us and make it fully valuable.
this is just my opinion, of course, but I don't see anything "un-mormon" about it.
No worries on the irony bit, but I appreciate you caring enough to clarify. I hope I also am not coming across as some sort of "My way or the highway" type… (Whatever that means.)
Nor do I see why continuing revelation would render theology unnecessary; we inevitably try to make sense of revelation in the context of our own experience– and to do that is to do theology.
I know you've expressed frustration to me, Lynnette, with Christians who assume the Bible interprets itself (thanks to RT for this great phrase). The meaning is just evident on the face of it; why would you reflect on it? They admit no other interpretations because they refuse to see that their own interpretations are interpretations. So do Christians who believe that do theology? I suspect they do not, but I would be interested to know what your experience is.
Thanks for all the comments! I appreciate the kind words, Ben and Eric. Geoff J and Jacob J, I completely agree that Mormons already engage in theological thought whether or not we label it as such–I think that goes along with RoastedTomatoes' point about revelation not being self-interpreting.
Vivevada, my experience has been similar to yours. I've been profoundly inspired and moved by some of the great thinkers of Christianity, and I'm always a little disturbed when I hear them dismissed out-of-hand. Most Latter-day Saints, at least in my experience, seem quite comfortable with the notion that there is much good to be found in classic literature or art or music, but philosophy and theology seem to be a bit more suspect. The assumptions underlying that would be interesting to explore further.
MW, I will confess that I've only heard the Givens quote thrown around in isolation; I don't know the context for it, and I'm quite open to re-thinking my critique. But I'm not entirely clear on what you mean about theology existing in the absence of revelation because otherwise there would only be one church. As I think RT's grace-works example illustrates nicely, one church can have a multiplicity of theologies (and I don't think that's a bad thing), so I don't think theological diversity necessarily implies a lack of revelation.
If what you're saying, though, is that not all theology is inspired or completely accurate, I'd certainly agree; I think that theology is always tentative and open to future revision, and sometimes it goes in completely wrong directions. But I'm still not sure what theology without revelation would look like. When people do theology, it seems to me that they always draw on some source which they consider revelatory. The Nicene Creed, to pick one of your examples, didn't arise from some kind of starting-from-scratch speculation; it's a particular interpretation of the revelation contained in the New Testament.
There are, of course, heated debates regarding the question of which sources of revelation are legitimate, and how much relative weight should be given to each one. I suspect that sometimes when people accuse theology of being done in a fashion independent of revelation, what they mean is that they don't think the source on which the theology draws is actually revelatory.
Anyway, I pretty much agree with your last paragraph; while I do believe in the existence of absolute or definitive truth, I also think that our access to it and understanding of it is inevitably limited and fragmented. So we're maybe not really that far apart in our thinking on this.
Dave, your suggestion touches on the much-discussed question of just what theology is, and how it relates to philosophy. My own view, which I've largely taken from Paul Tillich, is that theology has a narrower scope than philosophy because of its commitment to the truth claims of a particular tradition. I see philosophy of religion as asking many similar questions to theology, but starting without the same presuppositions. So I still want to hold to the term "theology" to describe what I do–though your point about less-threatening language is a good one.
Hi, Lynnette,
Yet another well written, thoughful post to which I have nothing to much to add except I very much enjoyed reading it. You have a place at my table any time
Matt and RT, in reading your conversation I'm thinking that maybe some of the confusion that comes up around this topic stems from the different ways the term "revelation" gets used. On the one hand, there's public, official, ecclesial, textually-encoded revelation; on the other, there's private guidance and confirmation from the Spirit. And when people worry that theology is being done without revelation, I'm not actually sure if they're referring to the latter or to the former. But I think that theology as a discipline is necessarily based on public revelation, or else there would be no common ground for theological discussion. (Which isn't to say, of course, that private inspiration never plays any role in the process.)
Ziff, that's a really good question. I've certainly run across conservative Christians who see "theology" as a dangerous practice which detracts from the plain and simple truths of the Bible. But many conservative Protestant seminaries have theology programs, and I'd be curious to find out what they were like.
Interestingly, evangelicals–who tend to see the message of the Bible as fairly unambiguous–nonetheless have some heated theological debates. For example, the premillennialists (who think Christ will come before the millennium) and the postmillenialists (who think he will come after) can really go after each other. And in recent years there's been tremendous controversy over open theism.
Thanks, ECS! I'm glad to hear that you have a theology-friendly table.
I take a pretty low view of theology, but from the opposite perspective of most Mormons, perhaps. The few theology classes I took in grad school (I believe they were socio-theology of gender and liberation theology) made me want to scream because they used OT or NT texts as a foundation point without ever acknowledging the problems with interpreting the texts. Now I realize it isn't fair to hold theology hostage until exegesis is universally agreed upon (as if . . .), but it somehow seemed irresponsible to me to say "The NT teaches X (see vss. blah blah blah) and therefore ….." when there is no overwhelming consensus that verses blah blah blah actually teach X.
Great post, Lynnette. I think theology is a great field of study (but then, some Mormons would think my field of study (anthropology) as harmful as well, so I might be a little biased).
I don't have much to add, but I wanted to address this point:
People occasionally ask me why Mormons don't have much of a theological tradition. I don't really know what to tell them.
I think one reason Mormons don't have much of a theological tradition is because until fairly recently Mormons were seen by those of other major religions as a cult rather than a religion. There is a fairly large field of Mormon theological scholarship, but theology in general is (at least in my view) something that compares and examines various religious traditions, and to do that you generally need to have people from more than one religious tradition willing to work together at it. (Of course, this is just my rather uninformed opinion.)
The frustration Julie describes regarding the lack of universality of theological opinion is precisely why I find the theological frameworks of religion fascinating. Competing interpretations of scripture and religious doctrine present opportunities for us to understand how and why the fundamental principles and religious values collide.
Mormonism doesn't have a history of dialogue and intellectual discussion of its theology – partly because Mormonism has very little theology – but also because of the Mormon cultural bias against dissent (however respectful) and debate.
I think there are indeed very deep-seated (though not necessarily "good") reasons for a Mormon aversion to theology. For example, we believe that our leaders can receive revelation in a way that the rest of Christianity does not. One view of Bruce R. McConkie is that he's a case study in attempting to be too theological (OK, bad and simplistic theology, but still…), and so he looks very bad when, for example, he was wrong about saying the blacks would never receive the priesthood. It seems, then, that there is an implicit challenge that systematic theology poses to this kind of revelatory trumping power that Mormon leaders have–and therein, I believe, lies a lot of the skepticism among Mormons toward theology. I think it's a fascinating issue in and of itself, esp. from a feminist perspective, b/c it is so intertwined with the hierarchical/patriarchal structure of the Church….
#21 continued: I think this is also why a Scriptural Theology (cf. "New Testament Theology) will be more readily accepted by Mormons b/c, as Julie hinted at above, its very name acknowledges the interpretive difficulties. Also, it limits the scope of the project in a way that is less threatening to Church leadership. That is, if I do Scriptural Theology as opposed to Systematic Theology, I can always say that the view I subscribe too is historical and therefore doesn't create tension with anything that a new prophet might say.
Lynette, just to clarify, I am MW and Matt W., anyway, thanks for your response, and I believe you are correct, that in the long run, we are not that disimilar.
My Wife's Grandfather has alas borrow my givens book and "lost" it, so context from Givens must wait.
Typically Givens is a major proponent of personal revelation, which he "invented" the buzzwords "Dialogic Revelation" to explain the Mormon concept of.
I know Julie Smith has a copy of the book, maybe we can beg her for context.
I think Mormons don't like (systematic) theology because of the attitudes of the early leaders, particularly Joseph Smith. Theology is interpreted as Dogma, and "Dogma" is considered even worse than theology because it is a closed system. The word "Doctrine" is far more accepted a term because it isn't seen as related to a closed set of rules and beliefs. Thus, why Bruce R. McConkies book was named "Mormon Doctrine" rather than "Mormon Theology" when published.
So, Mormons do have theology, but it is open to various interpretations and added revelation. Because of that, they use the word Doctrine that represents a set of teachings that can be independant and changed according to prophetic and personal insights.
Which Givens book is that phrase used? (I only have By the Hand of Mormons — a book I immensely enjoyed BTW.)
Geoff J,
The Mormon Experience in America I liked it as much as By the hand of Mormon and recommend it. However, fair warning, it is priced as a text book, not as a typical book.
Correction, I meant the Latter-day Saint Experience in America oops
I think this article by Dan Peterson illustrates many reasons why theology is looked on skeiptically by Mormons. Although I think he oversimplifies many things (and is even mistaken on others), it does a good explaining what I think are deep undercurrents to the tension.
It's a pretty long article. Basically, he argues that the Apostacy was a result of Greek philosophy influencing Christian theologians who, following Plato esp., put more emphasis on correct belief, at the expense of orthopraxy. The Jews did a better job preserving the dynamic and hence unknowable character of God, so there's no such thing as Jewish theology (also related to an emphasis on following the law more than beliefs, dogmatic or otherwise). Joseph Smith, then, can be viewed as restoring the original, correct ideas of Judaism, but with the recognition of Jesus as the Messiah.
I read the entire Dan Peterson article. It reminded me of when I read Stephen Hawking's book "A Brief History of Time" a few years ago. I didn't understand a word of it either, but what a thrilling intellectual experience. Thanks for this peak into the minds of really, really smart people.
Ok, here's my guess about Mormons and their dislike of theology. They just don't know what it means.
I think this is true on 2 levels. First, they don't understand the word itself. . .
Secondly, they, or should I say, I don't know what using theology or engaging in theological discourse would look like in my life. It is totally out of our cultural identity. There are no centerpeices or refreshments: I don't think there is anything to "bear" or "bare."
So, Lynette, how about a Theology 101 for our ZD Sunday School class? (I'm happy to take a few homework assignments)
Seriously, I have really enjoyed this thread, but it seems a little, esoteric? I need a little more hands on to be able to understand some of this . . .
Julie, I think that's a fair complaint; it's true that theologians often aren't trained much in exegesis. In my ideal university (with no time limits) there'd be time to do both. Of course, I have to admit that I wasn't always crazy about the scripture classes I was required to take; sometimes it felt like we spent so much time discussing whether such-and-such a phrase was actually written by Paul or was the addition of a later redactor that we never got to any interesting questions. But the question of how much biblical expertise one should have to engage in theological work is a good one. With some exceptions, systematic theology seems to draw much more heavily on the tradition than on scriptural texts–which may account for why those of us who are trained in it often end up more familiar with Augustine and Aquinas than with the Bible.
Vada, you raise an interesting point about having multiple traditions involved. I agree that what theological work has been done in Mormonism has been quite insular, and not in dialogue with the broader Christian theological tradition. I think there'd be benefits to both sides if that were to change.
ECS, I've also wondered how our cultural resistance to debate plays into this. I've occasionally heard that theology isn't necessary for Mormons because we already have all the clear answers. If Latter-day Saints–even General Authorities–have different takes on theological issues, does that call into question our claim to be the true church? I don't see that it necessarily would, but I have gotten the impression that's a concern.
Robert C., that issue of church leaders and the revelatory trump card really is at the heart of this, I think. Is it possible to have both a strong church hierarchy with inspired leaders, and a theological tradition? The Catholics seem to do it–though ecclesiastical leaders do clash sometimes with theologians. In the LDS faith, I've often wondered: do we believe that the call to be a GA involves playing the role of a theologian? If we had professional theologians, would that potentially undermine the ecclesiastical hierarchy? I have to say that the current situation, in which the quasi-official interpreters of doctrine seem to be BYU religion professors–many of whom don't have much academic training in religion (though I do realize there are exceptions to that)–doesn't strike me as all that optimal.
Matt W/MW, thanks for the clarification about your name. I did realize that it was the same person, but not until after I'd written comments to you as if you were different people. I'll add that Givens book to my (far too long!) list of books to read.
Jettboy, that's a good point that Joseph Smith had quite a bit of contempt for what he referred to as "dogma," and I don't doubt that his outlook has continued to influence the church. However, I'm not sure that theology as such has always had the bad reputation that it currently does–I can think of a number of people in the first century of the church's existence who seem to have understood themselves as engaging in theological work: Parley P. Pratt, John A. Widtsoe, B.H. Roberts, James E. Talmage. I don't know the history well enough to know when and why that changed.
Robert C., thanks for the link. That article brings up more issues than I have the energy to tackle at the moment, but I do think that question of how an emphasis on orthopraxis (and I agree that Mormons seem closer to Jews than to mainstream Christians in that regard) relates to a theological tradition (or the lack thereof) is one worth thinking about.
Ruby, someday I too plan to read <em>A Brief History of Time</em>, though I may well have the same experience that you did!
Jessawhy, that's a really good observation; I think the term "theology" is often a rather vague one for Latter-day Saints, because it doesn't obviously connect to any aspect of church experience. As has been said several times, it's there implicitly–when a Sunday School teacher asks "what is faith?" or "what is revelation?", they're asking you to engage in theological thought. But I certainly had no idea at all what academic theology looked like before I decided to get involved in it; that's a good idea for a future post.
"Parley P. Pratt, John A. Widtsoe, B.H. Roberts, James E. Talmage."
I suppose you are correct in your interpretation of what they did as theology. However, I think most of their work was less theological than explanations of doctrine. The exception would probably be Parley P. Pratt and B.H.Roberts whose major works and ideas were highly contraversial during their own lives. In other words, they were exceptions rather than the rule when they wrote. If you include them, I don't see why you can't include Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie as theologins as well.
Not that the above can answer the question of why theology is looked down upon so much today. My own feeling is that the processes of theology isn't seen as a problem so much as the idea of theology. Perhaps it is a samantics problem. Who isn't enganged in doctrinal topics who aren't also engaging in theology? Are the two interchangable or completely different? What is theology?
If it is true, as your post almost more than implies, that "Theological reflection is dependent on these [traditional outside] sources," no wonder most Mormons reject it. They already believe those sources are what they are trying to get away from and should be rejected. At best they can be used to follow the path of Apostacy and not for any insight into God's words. Even those early LDS theologins you listed often spoke negatively of the teachings of the Christian Fathers. My guess is that you overstate your case when you say that what the LDS thinkers you listed did was theology as you understand the term. That is, of course, dependant on the definition of the word.
Jettboy, my earlier comment probably wasn't very clear. Like you, I'm not sure how much qualitative difference there actually is between the work of say, Talmage and McConkie. However, my impression (which could be mistaken) is that the authors I mentioned understood themselves to be engaging in theological thought (Widstoe and Pratt both authored books with the word "theology" in the title), whereas McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith did not. That's the shift I'm curious about. I don't know if it's merely a matter of semantics, or it reflects something deeper.
As far as the rest of your comment, I think it goes back to the debate I mentioned earlier about which sources are in fact revelatory and therefore legitimate. However, while I think that's as an important discussion, I see it as being at least to some extent separate from the question of whether theology per se is a legitimate field of inquiry. But I do think that you've hit on one reason why Mormons have often been skeptical (fairly or not) of theological work.
"A crucial point, I think, is that theology is second-order discourse. It's a reflection on faith, and it draws on such sources as scripture, tradition, and experience. (The relative value of these sources varies, of course, depending on your denominational background and general outlook.)"
If this is the useful definition of Theology, than I would say the difference is attitudinal. For the first mentioned authors, they were engaging in reflective religous thought. The J.F.S. and B.R.M. writing was considered by them more authoritative commentary on gospel doctrines. Ironic, considering their distate for such things as Dogma. As much as I like these two far more than what many bloggernacle participants have expressed, it is perhaps in their coming close to codifying doctrine that theology has fallen out of favor.
On top of that, theologizing in the LDS faith has more often been political than religious in purpose. Such a thing has put a bad taste in many member's mouths about theological explorations. In fact, this has been the situation with religious discourse outside of the Church in recent years. Because of this, members see (in combination with other factors) theology as a bludgen rather than a help in coming to spiritual knowledge.
The reason I am engaging in this discussion is that I consider myself a Conservative Mormon Theologian. As such, I have noticed the same things as you have regarding attitudes toward the subject of theological discussion. Believe it or not, I would like to change that. The problem might be (and I don't know you well enough) that our purposes for doing so are probably different. For me, it seems such an attitude of theological distancing has created a serious confusion as to doctrinal teachings as understood by those not of the faith. Non-members too often take as a given things that are not set as absolutes. When they discover this, they consider it contradictions rather than fluidity of doctrinal discourse. Even Orthodox Mormons understand this, but they don't know how to articulate the theological implications because they usually only know how to talk in absolutes. This is not about opening up to divergent ideas (that I am opposed to), but rather ability to effectively and correctly communicate nuances. My interest in Mormon theology is that it is very complicated, and cannot be understood (as Joseph Smith said) without serious contemplation.
Jettboy, thanks for letting me know more about where you're coming from and your perspective on the potential value of LDS theology. Like you, I can see a lot of advantages in having a theological tradition to draw on when we're attempting to explain our doctrines to others. Though I'll freely confess (and this is where we might disagree) that I'd also like to see us more engaged with the theological tradition of mainstream Christianity; I see a lot in it that's "virtuous, lovely, of good report, and praiseworthy," and I think a kind of ghettoized or self-contained LDS theology would be an impoverished one.
One more thought on this topic– the discussion about the value of formal training that came up on my other thread dealing with professional vs. lay clergy seems central here as well. To put it starkly: if access to the Spirit is the only relevant qualification for one to engage in theological work, professional training in theology really is a waste of time. I think I tend to see theology as being similar to other academic disciplines; I believe that the Spirit can inspire one to greater truth and insight in any field, but I nonetheless wouldn't suggest that someone substitute prayer and scripture study for taking classes in calculus if they're planning to be a mathematician. On the other hand, I do think theology is in a somewhat unique situation– unlike most academic disciplines, it finds itself accountable not only just to other academics, but also to ecclesiastical leaders. And that makes those questions about what qualifications are needed somewhat more complicated.
[…] There was a discussion about the value of theology that questioned why Latter-day Saints have such a hard time accepting the study of theology. It got me thinking of my own interest in the subject. Surely Mormons dabble in the study of theology more than credit has been given. They just don't know it. Discussing the personal opinions about the Last Days and what the Afterlife will be like can generate a lot of theological debate. The confusing might be on how casual it all can sound. There is a disjointedness that is hard to say creates a formal approach to doctrinal exigesis. […]


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You can't keep a good curmudgeon down: House's Hugh Laurie is in talks to star as the villain in the new RoboCop film, according to The Hollywood Reporter.If cast, Laurie will star opposite Joel Kinnaman (The Killing), who plays the titular cop-turned-cyborg hero, Alex Murphy.
House Comes to an End: Creator David Shore Answers Our Burning Finale Questions
Gary Oldman is set to play Murphy's scientist-creator and Samuel L. Jackson will play a media mogul. Jose Padilha will direct the remake of the 1987 sci-fi flick.Laurie's eight-season run as Dr. Gregory House ended last month.
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ZH0 Settlements and Judgments Chapter 2012
Friday, November 9, 2012
ZH0 Settlements and Judgments Chapter 2012
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This article was corrected | View correction
Preterm birth is a leading cause of neonatal mortality, with a variety of contributing causes and risk factors. Environmental exposures represent a group of understudied, but potentially important, factors. Phthalate diesters are used extensively in a variety of consumer products worldwide. Consequently, exposure in pregnant women is highly prevalent.
To assess the relationship between phthalate exposure during pregnancy and preterm birth.
Design, Setting, and Participants
This nested case-control study was conducted at Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts. Women were recruited for a prospective observational cohort study from 2006-2008. Each provided demographic data, biological samples, and information about birth outcomes. From within this group, we selected 130 cases of preterm birth and 352 randomly assigned control participants, and we analyzed urine samples from up to 3 time points during pregnancy for levels of phthalate metabolites.
Phthalate exposure during pregnancy.
Main Outcomes and Measures
We examined associations between average levels of phthalate exposure during pregnancy and preterm birth, defined as fewer than 37 weeks of completed gestation, as well as spontaneous preterm birth, defined as preterm preceded by spontaneous preterm labor or preterm premature rupture of the membranes (n = 57).
Geometric means of the di-2-ethylhexyl phthalate (DEHP) metabolites mono-(2-ethyl)-hexyl phthalate (MEHP) and mono-(2-ethyl-5-carboxypentyl) phthalate (MECPP), as well as mono-n-butyl phthalate (MBP), were significantly higher in cases compared with control participants. In adjusted models, MEHP, MECPP, and Σ DEHP metabolites were associated with significantly increased odds of preterm birth. When spontaneous preterm births were examined alone, MEHP, mono-(2-ethyl-5-oxohexyl) phthalate, MECPP, Σ DEHP, MBP, and mono-(3-carboxypropyl) phthalate metabolite levels were all associated with significantly elevated odds of prematurity.
Conclusions and Relevance
Women exposed to phthalates during pregnancy have significantly increased odds of delivering preterm. Steps should be taken to decrease maternal exposure to phthalates during pregnancy.
DEHP indicates di-2-ethylhexyl phthalate; MBP, mono-n-butyl phthalate; MECPP, mono-(2-ethyl-5-carboxypentyl) phthalate; MEHP, mono-(2-ethyl)-hexyl phthalate.
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On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:25:18 -0700, "Julie Bove"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>It's what's for dinner. I like meatloaf but I really love cold meatloaf on
>a sandwich. I don't get that very often because I don't make meatloaf very
>often and when I do there are usually no leftovers. Now when I make it I
>make it in large amounts.
I'll take some ketchup, mustard, pickles and onion on mine, please.


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Justin Moore Calls Out Ashton Kutcher On ACM Attire
Funny or disrespectful?
When Two and a Half Men star Ashton Kutcher came out to present Female Vocalist of the Year at the ACM Awards Sunday night, the actor changed up his look.
Kutcher came out on stage wearing a cowboy hat and dug out an old school red jacket. It was definitely a new look for the actor. He introduced his "band" members, Luke and TJ. TJ was carrying a mug of beer, while the actor spoke in a low voice in a bit of a drunken southern drawl.
Kutcher then decided to sing a song "to the ladies" as the band chugged beer. It was an attempt at George Strait's "I Cross My Heart."
While some girls at the MGM Grand screamed thinking the tribute was sincere, some in the audience clearly weren't fans.
Count among them Justin Moore, who sent out this tweet after the show went off the air Sunday night:
Other celebrity cameos at the ACMs this year included Las Vegas staples Wayne Newton and Carrot Top, rockers Kiss, and U2's Bono.
What did you think of Kutcher's performance? Leave your thoughts in the comments area below!


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