text:
My friend Dawn posted about her friend V and my heart broke. Her friend V lost her nephew in yesterday's shooting. I've already donated my own money but Dawn mentioned I should auction something off to help raise money that way.
And so I am.
All of the money will be donated directly to her so she can help her family with funeral costs and meals and such. Things no parent ever wants to think about.
So with this auction, you will receive one "I love you" and "I know" teacup surprise box. With your surprise box, you will also receive a sampling of other Geek Details products. We normally sell these surprise boxes for $34 + shipping. I will ship this box for free to the winning bidder. We will not be keeping *any* of the money from this auction. Not a penny. This auction will close at 10 pm central on 16 December 2012.
Want to bid? Leave your bid in the comments section please. Winning bidder will be contacted tomorrow evening.
Not sure what an i love you i know set looks like? Here is an example. This is another example. This is the surprise box listing. Your set will be something like that but not those sets. Want those sets? If you buy any of the "I love you, I know" sets in the month of December, we will donate all profits from your purchase to V and her family.
Other ways you can help Victoria or her family:
If you go to this facebook note, it updates frequently with the best way to help their family at that time. Check it out. Do whatever you feel moved to do.
Didn't win? You can still get an "I love you I know" teacup set in my store and I really am donating *all* profits from those from now until the end of December. OR just donate directly to the family.


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Date: 01 February 2012, 18:00-19:00 UTC

<ac:link><ri:page ri:content-title="2012-02-01 Meeting Agenda" /><ac:link-body>Agenda</ac:link-body></ac:link>

Moderator: Matthew Weier O'Phinney (nickname weierophinney)

Next meeting: 08 February 2012

Weekly meetings?

(Search for "18:03:13" in the log.)

During <ac:link><ri:page ri:content-title="2012-01-25 Meeting Log" /><ac:link-body>last week's meeting</ac:link-body></ac:link>, a number of folks brought up that they would like more frequent meetings, in part:

To allow for shorter meetings

To get more frequent updates on project status

To space out votes (i.e., fewer votes per meeting)

There was little to no real discussion this week – everybody felt it was a good idea, and thus it got a quick "+1".

tl;dr: Meetings are now weekly, at 18:00 UTC on Wednesdays.

Vote on the Zend\View Proposal

(Search for "18:13:42" in the log.)

Matthew (me) posted the <ac:link><ri:page ri:content-title="RFC - View Layer" /><ac:link-body>View layer RFC</ac:link-body></ac:link> some weeks ago, and has a prototype ready; he has asked for a vote so he can continue in earnest.

There was a little discussion surrounding the following topics:

Terminology. ralphschindler thinks there may be confusion between the terms "Response" (response object), "Result" (result of execution, passed to the MvcEvent), and ViewModels. He did not think it was a deal-breaker in terms of approval however; Matthew asked him to clarify his problems on the list so that he can address them if necessary.

EvanDotPro suggested an "ErrorHandlingViewStrategy" should be included by default.

Where should the strategy be instantiated and attached to the event manager? Matthew suggested we could potentially do this in the Application or Bootstrap objects, but it needs a little thought.

Aldemar wanted to ensure that the component handles disambiguation properly. As an example, as of beta2, two controllers in two modules using the same methods will result in the same view script being invoked – which can lead to the wrong view script being invoked. Matthew indicated that this is resolved via a combination of hinting to the ViewModel returned by the controller which view script to use, and configuring your resolvers correctly.

In the end, there were no dissenting votes, providing approval for the RFC.

tl;dr: The View Layer RFC was approved.

Discussion of Coding Standard Ballot Items

(Search for "18:39:59" in the log.)

Ralph started a discussion last week about naming of interfaces (and abstract classes, and traits), in light of usage patterns and problems encountered so far in ZF2's life-cycle. The discussion is backed by an <ac:link><ri:page ri:content-title="RFC - Revised Naming of Interfaces in ZF2" /><ac:link-body>RFC</ac:link-body></ac:link>, which details some of the issues and rationale behind proposed changes.

Ralph has now created a <ac:link><ri:page ri:content-title="POLL - Coding Standards for Type Names" /><ac:link-body>poll</ac:link-body></ac:link>, and wanted to ensure it accurately listed all options we should vote on.

The only change suggested was by Thinkscape, who suggested adding an option for having traits in their own subnamespaces of components.

With that change, we voted to open the poll for one week, starting today.

tl;dr: the poll on coding standards for interfaces, abstract, and trait naming conventions is now open.

PHP 5.4?

(Search for "18:50:52" in the log.)

I raised the idea of considering PHP 5.4 as the minimum required version for ZF2. The primary reasons:

PHP 5.4 stable is on the verge of release, which means that once ZF2 is released, if we stick with PHP 5.3, we'd be pinning ourselves to an "old" release immediately.

Traits could greatly simplify some internals of ZF2. As examples: traits for Options, Events, and Brokers would lead to less and more maintainable code.

Additionally, adopting PHP 5.4 and fully using features such as traits will reduce the workload later (no need to refactor to use these features), and allow us to focus on new framework feature instead of language features.

That said, there are some cons to doing this:

Many popular linux/freebsd/etc. distributions will not be shipping PHP 5.4 in a long term support (LTS) edition in the foreseeable future. (Though ubuntu, debian, and fedora have indicated they will do so soon.) Couple this with the fact that many hosting providers are very conservative in updating versions, and we have a potential to lock out many developers due to version incompatibilities.

Many developers and companies have already started putting plans in place for 5.3 + ZF2; this changes the equation and adds additional overhead and time to migrations.

Many view the ".0" release as inherently unstable, and simply will not adopt until a few bugfix releases have dropped.

Another potential route is to stick with 5.3 as our base version, but offer some forwards-compatible features for consumption by end users. As an example, we've already created a "ProvidesEvents" trait in the EventManager; this is not used in the framework itself, but end users may compose this trait into their classes in order to quickly provide eventing capabilties to their own classes. Providing features in this way would provide useful tools for PHP 5.4 users, with little expense to 5.3 users (there would be minimal support requirements for traits).

In the end, we decided to provide a poll in the wiki, allow discussion for a week, and then open the poll to voting. Matthew will create this in the next day or so. UPDATE: poll is <ac:link><ri:page ri:content-title="POLL - What version of PHP should ZF2 target?" /><ac:link-body>here</ac:link-body></ac:link>.

tl;dr: Many, many opinions on PHP 5.4 adoption and what it would mean to the framework, and little consensus. More discussion is needed.

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Feb 01 18:03:13 <weierophinney> First topic: do we want to move to weekly meetings for the foreseeable future?
Feb 01 18:04:04 <NickBelhomme_> I cannot comment on that one, because I don't follow the bi-weekly meetings anymore on a regular basis.
Feb 01 18:04:19 <NickBelhomme_> The people who requested that are here?
Feb 01 18:04:25 <weierophinney> I'll admit I only perused the log quickly last week.
Feb 01 18:04:27 <ralphschindler> Thinkscape had issues with weekly meetings IIRC
Feb 01 18:04:28 <NickBelhomme_> if not... then 2 weekly seems logical
Feb 01 18:04:28 <lubs> weierophinney: yes; i would like to see the certain ones of them more status related
Feb 01 18:05:07 <ralphschindler> lugs you're implying that decision making meetings can't happen weekly then, right?
Feb 01 18:05:12 <weierophinney> But I know from using my PM hat that having weekly makes it much easier for me to gauge what stuff is ready, and to coordinate volunteers for initiatives that are having issues (missing contribs, busy contribs, etc)
Feb 01 18:05:13 <ralphschindler> lubs*
Feb 01 18:05:53 <lubs> ralphschindler: well; yes and no... smaller decisions could be made but potentially larger ones could wait for a bi-weekly or monthly meeting?
Feb 01 18:06:27 <EvanDotPro> weierophinney: that's my perspective as a project manager as well
Feb 01 18:06:39 <weierophinney> lubs, or we could have fewer decisions per meeting as well
Feb 01 18:06:45 <weierophinney> which may keep them shorter.
Feb 01 18:06:52 <lubs> weierophinney: that would work; which would be awesome
Feb 01 18:06:59 <ralphschindler> Thinkscape: you had reservations about the weekly meeting (That is what we're discussing)
Feb 01 18:07:01 <weierophinney> Those just joining: what are your thoughts on weekly meetings?
Feb 01 18:07:26 <MikeA> +1
Feb 01 18:07:30 <ralphschindler> i think fewer decisions is a product of going weekly, no?
Feb 01 18:07:30 <Bostjan> +1
Feb 01 18:07:40 <weierophinney> ralphschindler, I'd think so.
Feb 01 18:07:56 <NickBelhomme_> weekly meetings gives more flexibility to people who want to attend, if they skip one, they have the bi-weekly. If they have something important to throw they can do that in the next upcoming week meeting.
Feb 01 18:07:57 <EvanDotPro> i think weekly meetings to better maintain a picture of the progress being made is good – i do think we should put tihngs like voting into more persistent mediums like the wiki
Feb 01 18:08:22 <Thinkscape> Sorry, my alarm clock failed. I'm ok for weekly, unless we don't have any topics to discuss which I doubt.
Feb 01 18:08:25 <Bostjan> i like reading irc logs, it's nice to see progress (from those who are not involved in developing zf2)
Feb 01 18:08:44 <PadraicB> +1 for weekly
Feb 01 18:08:47 <ralphschindler> +1
Feb 01 18:08:47 <weierophinney> EvanDotPro, I think that makes sense as well.
Feb 01 18:08:55 <Slamdunk> +1 for weekly
Feb 01 18:08:56 <EvanDotPro> +1 for weekly from me as well
Feb 01 18:09:29 <NickBelhomme_> +1 weekly: smaller and quicker feedback
Feb 01 18:10:09 <weierophinney> kk, I'm calling it: agreed to weekly meetings.
Feb 01 18:10:12 <lubs> yay +1 for weekly
Feb 01 18:10:15 »» Thinkscape is unable to vote on http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV2/POLL+-+Coding+Standards+for+Type+Names because there is a small lock there, and there was no info on ML on that
Feb 01 18:10:19 <Bostjan> \o/
Feb 01 18:10:31 <weierophinney> Is the 18:00 UTC do-able, or should we switch things up.
Feb 01 18:10:34 <weierophinney> I'm big on consistency.
Feb 01 18:10:47 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, the discussion today is whether that poll captures all the options.
Feb 01 18:10:55 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, once approved, we'll open it.
Feb 01 18:11:08 <Thinkscape> ah, ok.
Feb 01 18:11:14 <weierophinney> back on topic..
Feb 01 18:11:21 <weierophinney> 18:00 UTC okay, or a different time?
Feb 01 18:11:43 <weierophinney> going once
Feb 01 18:11:43 <NickBelhomme_> In europe (Belgium) 18h is perfect
Feb 01 18:11:49 <MikeA> +1
Feb 01 18:11:52 <NickBelhomme_> +1
Feb 01 18:11:53 <EvanDotPro> 18:00 is good for me.
Feb 01 18:12:13 <Thinkscape> +1
Feb 01 18:13:04 <weierophinney> and there we go.
Feb 01 18:13:14 <weierophinney> Decision: weekly meetings, 18:00 UTC on Wednesdays.
Feb 01 18:13:42 <weierophinney> Next topic: Zend\View RFC
Feb 01 18:13:51 <weierophinney> Can we approve it?
Feb 01 18:14:14 <weierophinney> As a reminder, the RFC is here: http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV2/RFC+-+View+Layer
Feb 01 18:15:32 <MikeA> Poll there is unanimous in favour at present
Feb 01 18:15:32 <ralphschindler> i like the general architecture, I'm not fond of some of the terminology
Feb 01 18:16:01 <Thinkscape> I'm +1 for the general architecture - there are a few things to polish and determine (like those events, configuring layouts etc.) but that's up to consequent prototypes.
Feb 01 18:16:04 <weierophinney> MikeA, that poll is for whether to include the topic in the meeting.
Feb 01 18:16:10 <weierophinney> ralphschindler, which terminology?
Feb 01 18:16:29 <ralphschindler> theres a disconnect in this line:
Feb 01 18:16:30 <ralphschindler> $result = new ViewModel();
Feb 01 18:16:36 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, exactly – that's exactly what I've run into as well. RFCs capture the general architecture, but things often need tweaks during development.
Feb 01 18:16:42 <ralphschindler> AFAIK, there is no result infrastructure?
Feb 01 18:16:49 <weierophinney> ralphschindler, actually, there is.
Feb 01 18:16:59 <PadraicB> With Thinkscape, I believe
Feb 01 18:16:59 <weierophinney> ralphschindler, the MvcEvent composes a "result" of dispatch
Feb 01 18:17:14 <weierophinney> ralphschindler, in this case, the result is a ViewModel.
Feb 01 18:17:21 <weierophinney> (vs a Response object)
Feb 01 18:17:41 <ralphschindler> but the result could be something other than related to a view, like a redirect object?
Feb 01 18:18:05 <weierophinney> ralphschindler, correct. (redirect object == response object with a Location header and alternate status code)
Feb 01 18:18:34 <ralphschindler> well, that comes back to my original statement about terminology results and responses might get confusing for folks
Feb 01 18:18:57 <Thinkscape> good question though - if controllers producte ViewModel's that are consumed by strategies that produce redirect Responses ---- how can a controller control a redirect?
Feb 01 18:19:03 <saltybeagle> ralphschindler: you're just talking about the name of the variable there? $result vs $viewModel or some such thing?
Feb 01 18:19:42 <Thinkscape> Unless "redirection" is one of the strategies ..
Feb 01 18:19:44 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, typically, once you hit the View, you won't be creating a redirect.
Feb 01 18:19:47 <ralphschindler> saltybeagle: the concept, and educating users on what a result is (MvcEvent listens for) and a response object (similar in nature to dispatch's second parameter)
Feb 01 18:19:53 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, but yes, it could be a strategy
Feb 01 18:20:21 <ralphschindler> so, no not the variable name, but what ends up handling something returned from an action (the underlying architecture)
Feb 01 18:20:22 <weierophinney> ralphschindler, mvc doesn't "listen" for a result. Controllers set the event's result when done with dispatch.
Feb 01 18:20:40 <Thinkscape> hmm... but that introduces some lazy typing (implicit structures) like, inside a controller: return array('redirect'=>true,'redirectUrl'=>'http://foo') ...
Feb 01 18:20:50 <weierophinney> ralphschindler, if the result is a Response object, the event loop ends, and the response gets kicked out and returned immediately.
Feb 01 18:21:12 <Thinkscape> aaah
Feb 01 18:21:17 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, like I said above, if you're going to redirect, you'll likely simply return a response object.
Feb 01 18:21:40 <Thinkscape> that makes sense... you skip the strategies+rendering part then
Feb 01 18:21:44 <weierophinney> exactly
Feb 01 18:21:46 <Thinkscape> (altogether)
Feb 01 18:22:20 <PadraicB> I don't see it causing confusion muself
Feb 01 18:22:32 <ralphschindler> if you return a result of some kind, does the Application\View\Listener not get an opportunity to do something with it?
Feb 01 18:22:38 <ralphschindler> but if you return a response, it bypasses that?
Feb 01 18:22:42 <EvanDotPro> that's one of the places in zf2 so far where i haven't been confused, tbh
Feb 01 18:22:54 <flavius> Hi
Feb 01 18:23:14 <weierophinney> ralphschindler, if you return a Response object, rendering would not occur. If you return something else, the view will pass it to the rendering strategies to determine what to do with it.
Feb 01 18:23:15 <EvanDotPro> (the returning a response to short circuit the dispatching)
Feb 01 18:23:45 <Thinkscape> actually, similar things will happen with exception during dispatch
Feb 01 18:23:53 <Thinkscape> if a controller throws an exception (i.e. db error)
Feb 01 18:24:08 <Thinkscape> That's something for either app-leve event or a view strategy
Feb 01 18:24:12 <weierophinney> yep
Feb 01 18:24:13 <EvanDotPro> Thinkscape: yes – that's something we seriously need to normalize right now, too.
Feb 01 18:24:39 <weierophinney> the view layer should make this fairly easy to implement, though it will require some minor changes to the workflow within Application::run
Feb 01 18:24:59 <Thinkscape> EvanDotPro: agreed. Imagine a streamlined "ErrorHandlingViewStrategy" that does just that...
Feb 01 18:25:35 <EvanDotPro> Thinkscape: yep, something along those lines would be really nice
Feb 01 18:25:39 <weierophinney>
Feb 01 18:26:24 <Thinkscape> Anyone against the "view rendering RFC" as an architecture ?
Feb 01 18:26:41 <PadraicB> That is confusing though - presumably exceptions are app level concerns (and the view's thereafter should that be configured)
Feb 01 18:26:53 <weierophinney> As noted, in prototyping, I'm seeing a few rough edges, but overall, it feels sound when I implement it in projects
Feb 01 18:27:29 <MikeA> Given that in the skeleton application it begins in Application/Module.php at present, where do you intend the view should "start"?
Feb 01 18:27:58 <weierophinney> MikeA, what do you mean, exactly?
Feb 01 18:28:26 <PadraicB> Where it's first instantiated do you mean, MikeA?
Feb 01 18:28:34 <weierophinney> ah
Feb 01 18:28:42 <MikeA> PadraicB: yes
Feb 01 18:29:21 <weierophinney> So, right now, when Akrabat and I have used it, we've done it in Application\Module in a bootstrap listener. We pull the View from the locator, and then attach it (as an aggregate) to the application events instance.
Feb 01 18:29:40 <weierophinney> We could potentially automate that in either the Application instance and/or Bootstrap, however.
Feb 01 18:29:58 <MikeA> Saw that, but when writing about it ins
Feb 01 18:30:10 <MikeA> ...instantiating view seemed to belong elsewhere
Feb 01 18:30:18 <MikeA> Not that I know where
Feb 01 18:30:51 <DASPRiD> oh meeting!
Feb 01 18:31:00 <ocramius> wb DASPRiD
Feb 01 18:31:08 <Thinkscape> zf1 also used bootstrap (view app resource) for that, but it DID have a "default" implementation if one didn't use the bootstrap.
Feb 01 18:31:49 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, we can actually still do that. The way I prototyped means that it will attach renderers by default.
Feb 01 18:32:05 <weierophinney> the bit it can't do right now is pull those renderers from DI, which would simplify it even more.
Feb 01 18:32:09 <PadraicB> cough, ViewRenderer
Feb 01 18:32:09 <ocramius> well, until it's sealed in Zend\Mvc
Feb 01 18:32:20 <weierophinney> PadraicB, different beast.
Feb 01 18:32:29 <PadraicB> Ugly terrible beast, aye...
Feb 01 18:32:32 <ocramius> weierophinney: what would you pull from the locator? an interface? an alias?
Feb 01 18:32:45 <MikeA> k – I'm +1 for RFC
Feb 01 18:33:10 <weierophinney> ocramius, the DefaultRenderingStrategy attaches three renderers by default – PhpRenderer, JsonRenderer, and FeedRenderer, and has some strategies for selection of each.
Feb 01 18:33:40 <weierophinney> ocramius, so, we'd potentially pull those from the locator within the strategy class, just to make usage simpler.
Feb 01 18:33:50 <EvanDotPro> would it make sense to simply pull a ListenerAggreaget from the locator for this?
Feb 01 18:33:54 <Aldemar> weierophinney: in beta2 you can't have 2 controllers in 2 modules with the same di alias, di gets
confused and always takes either one, I don't know if you addressed that problem in this rfc
Feb 01 18:33:59 <EvanDotPro> then leave everything else up to the implementation
Feb 01 18:33:59 <weierophinney> EvanDotPro, that's what I do, actually.
Feb 01 18:34:02 <DASPRiD> (The PhpRenderer renders PHP?)
Feb 01 18:34:06 <ocramius> weierophinney: I would pull $listener = $locator->get('Zend\Mvc\View\RenderingStrategy');
Feb 01 18:34:09 <EvanDotPro> weierophinney: oh nice! i should actually look at it lol
Feb 01 18:34:10 <ocramius> instead of $listener = $locator->get('Zend\Mvc\View\DefaultRenderingStrategy');
Feb 01 18:34:17 <ocramius> that would allow for preferences
Feb 01 18:34:25 <ocramius> (maybe I'm liking that feature too much)
Feb 01 18:34:36 <weierophinney> Aldemar, this addresses it insofar as you will typically return ViewModel instances specifying the view "script" (just a token, actually) to render.
Feb 01 18:35:06 <Thinkscape> ocramius's got a point
Feb 01 18:35:13 <weierophinney> ocramius, makes sense to me.
Feb 01 18:35:22 <Thinkscape> but it also needs to work without any di alias/def
Feb 01 18:35:35 <ocramius> Thinkscape: that needs Di preference
Feb 01 18:35:40 <ocramius> Thinkscape: no way around it
Feb 01 18:35:45 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, if we do it as a marker interface, then it's pretty easy to use as a DI preference or an alias.
Feb 01 18:35:48 <Thinkscape> ah - and it need to be extendable (as opposed to replacable)
Feb 01 18:35:51 <ocramius> Thinkscape: otherwise definition, choose one of the two
Feb 01 18:35:57 <ocramius>
Feb 01 18:36:05 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, yep.
Feb 01 18:36:07 <Thinkscape> ocramius: ah, so now I dislike it
Feb 01 18:36:19 <flavius> shouldn't aliases be prefixed with the module name, as to avoid confusion?
Feb 01 18:36:26 <Thinkscape> Probably 90% of people will use DefaultRend* because it does the job...
Feb 01 18:36:34 <DASPRiD> wasn't di meant to be completly optional?
Feb 01 18:36:38 <Thinkscape> but there needs to be a simple way to add-on to that behavior
Feb 01 18:36:39 <DASPRiD> or do i misunderstadn that?
Feb 01 18:36:45 <Thinkscape> (instead of replacing the whole)
Feb 01 18:36:46 <weierophinney> flavius, not always. Sometimes you may want to extend a module – in that case, a prefix may actually be counter-intuitive.
Feb 01 18:36:49 <ocramius> DASPRiD: then call it "locator"
Feb 01 18:37:09 <weierophinney> DASPRiD, it's really an implementation detail
Feb 01 18:37:11 <ocramius> DASPRiD: I still confuse them when writing, my fault
Feb 01 18:37:26 <weierophinney> so, any objections to ratifying the RFC and moving forward with development in earnest?
Feb 01 18:37:43 <ocramius> I'm fine with the RFC
Feb 01 18:38:12 <EvanDotPro> +1 let's make this happen
Feb 01 18:38:19 <ralphschindler> +1
Feb 01 18:38:24 <saltybeagle> weierophinney: I say you move forward, in earnest. +1
Feb 01 18:38:55 <weierophinney> there's still room for some changes, and if ralphschindler has some really good objections to terminology, I'll listen.
Feb 01 18:38:55 <Thinkscape> going once... going twice...
Feb 01 18:39:10 <flavius> ralphschindler: has the issue we just discussed on #zftalk.2 been raised here too?
Feb 01 18:39:18 <weierophinney> DONE
Feb 01 18:39:31 <weierophinney> flavius, nope. Save it for after the other topics are complete.
Feb 01 18:39:35 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape, sold for $29
Feb 01 18:39:40 <weierophinney> NEXT ITEM:
Feb 01 18:39:43 <Thinkscape> + S&H
Feb 01 18:39:55 <Aldemar> +1 as far as I can have same aliases in more than 1 module
Feb 01 18:39:59 <weierophinney> ralphschindler has created a poll surrounding CS for type names: http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV2/POLL+-+Coding+Standards+for+Type+Names
Feb 01 18:40:11 <MikeA> it's locked
Feb 01 18:40:13 <weierophinney> Aldemar, yes – see above. It's more explicitly done now than implicitly.
Feb 01 18:40:17 <weierophinney> MikeA, right, that's the poitn
Feb 01 18:40:19 <weierophinney> SO
Feb 01 18:40:31 <DASPRiD> i like explicitlity
Feb 01 18:40:39 <weierophinney> that page's polls are LOCKED because ralphschindler wants to find out if it accurately captures the various options.
Feb 01 18:40:54 <Thinkscape> chuckles – "Naming for Trait Types"
Feb 01 18:40:56 <ralphschindler> (as we discussed the plan was last week )
Feb 01 18:40:57 <Thinkscape> Traits FTW
Feb 01 18:40:58 <weierophinney> DOES ANYBODY WANT ANY CHANGES TO THAT POLL?
Feb 01 18:41:13 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape, uh
Feb 01 18:41:20 <PadraicB> None here
Feb 01 18:41:24 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape, shouldn't the 5.4 discussion come first?
Feb 01 18:41:29 <Thinkscape> DASPRiD: it's like a little hint on what's coming next
Feb 01 18:41:30 <PadraicB>
Feb 01 18:41:36 <weierophinney> DASPRiD, NO
Feb 01 18:41:53 <MikeA> Poll's fine
Feb 01 18:42:19 <ralphschindler> if no additions, the next question is when to open and close it
Feb 01 18:42:33 <Thinkscape> ralphschindler: how about traits were held in a namespace container ?
Feb 01 18:42:40 <ralphschindler> btw, you can always change your vote once you've cast it, until it closes
Feb 01 18:42:50 <Thinkscape> As it's new for php, how would i.e. java do that ?
Feb 01 18:43:06 <ralphschindler> i don't follow Thinkscape
Feb 01 18:43:15 <Thinkscape> My idea is: Zend\Stdlib\Traits Zend\Http\Client\Traits etc.
Feb 01 18:43:21 <Thinkscape> Group them
Feb 01 18:43:30 <Thinkscape> not thought out
Feb 01 18:43:34 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape, singular Trait plz
Feb 01 18:43:34 <weierophinney> ew
Feb 01 18:43:34 <Thinkscape> just throwing a bone .. etc.
Feb 01 18:43:35 <NickBelhomme_> aren't we discussing poll still? The moderator didn't move on yet
Feb 01 18:43:47 <ralphschindler> Exceptions are the only things we do that for
Feb 01 18:43:47 <weierophinney> thank you, NickBelhomme_
Feb 01 18:43:54 <Thinkscape> I know
Feb 01 18:43:56 <Thinkscape> traits are new
Feb 01 18:43:59 <Thinkscape> so we can discuss it
Feb 01 18:44:05 <ocramius> weierophinney: poll open till next wednesday imo
Feb 01 18:44:07 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, java doesn't have traits, so we're carving new territory here with naming.
Feb 01 18:44:11 <ocramius> from now
Feb 01 18:44:25 <MikeA> ocramius: +1
Feb 01 18:44:30 <Thinkscape> Well, I kinda like the grouping because it allows for:
Feb 01 18:44:41 <Thinkscape> use Zend\Stdlib\Features <--------- this holds all traits
Feb 01 18:44:42 <PadraicB> Poll seems fine unless someone is just about to object... Voting period of 5-7 days should be plenty.
Feb 01 18:44:54 <ralphschindler> Thinkscape is proposing an addition to the provided names, so i think its valid to entertain
Feb 01 18:45:06 <Thinkscape> then later class XYZ
Feb 01 18:45:07 <weierophinney> I'm fine with adding the option – more options is fine.
Feb 01 18:45:10 <ralphschindler> I'm ok with adding it, Thinkscape , although i wouldn't vote for it
Feb 01 18:45:20 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, can you edit that page and add it, please?
Feb 01 18:45:37 »» Thinkscape is editing
Feb 01 18:45:41 <ralphschindler> thanks Thinkscape
Feb 01 18:45:55 <weierophinney> any other changes anybody wants to see?
Feb 01 18:46:06 <ocramius> nope
Feb 01 18:46:06 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape, tho why would you specially namespace traits but not interfaces
Feb 01 18:46:26 <EvanDotPro> ocramius: +1 for leaving polls open for 7 days
Feb 01 18:46:41 <Thinkscape> DASPRiD: because of how traits work
Feb 01 18:46:42 <ralphschindler> we have a full week to vote, so i think discussions on individual items can happen in zftalk.2
Feb 01 18:46:43 <weierophinney> DASPRiD, usage is different.
Feb 01 18:46:47 <Thinkscape> It's like mini-classes
Feb 01 18:46:53 <ralphschindler> and, you can change your vote as many times as you like
Feb 01 18:47:05 <Thinkscape> you compose a big class from smaller ones, that's why you can call it features, or plugins or blocks or som,eting like that
Feb 01 18:47:20 <weierophinney> I can see the point. Not 100% sure I agree, and I think the namings don't have to dictate a subnamespace. But we can discuss on the list and/or #zftalk.2
Feb 01 18:47:26 <ralphschindler> wed following this meeting and closed before next weeks meeting, is that ratified?
Feb 01 18:47:31 <NickBelhomme_> dispatch or setOptions is not really a feature
Feb 01 18:48:12 <weierophinney> NickBelhomme_, it is in a way – you can compose that stuff in via traits in order to reduce the amount of coding. But yes, "feature" as a terminology may not be completely accurate.
Feb 01 18:48:21 <DASPRiD> NickBelhomme_, i thought we were getting rid of setOptions eventually
Feb 01 18:48:30 <ralphschindler> i meant, opening it after this meeting, and closing it before the next.
Feb 01 18:48:42 <weierophinney> any object to ralphschindler?
Feb 01 18:48:56 <DASPRiD> nah, sounds fine mwop
Feb 01 18:48:59 <weierophinney> if you're uncertain about some of the options/ramifications, ask on the ML or #zftalk.2
Feb 01 18:49:03 <NickBelhomme_> DASPRiD, just examples, that feature is a wrong name grouping, but hell, that can be included in the poll, I will not vote for that
Feb 01 18:49:19 <weierophinney> I'm going to call it in 3
Feb 01 18:49:25 <DASPRiD> NickBelhomme_, mh, not working for it, or voting against it?
Feb 01 18:49:27 <weierophinney> 2
Feb 01 18:49:40 <weierophinney> 1
Feb 01 18:49:43 <weierophinney> NEXT TOPIC
Feb 01 18:50:00 <DASPRiD> (get ready to rumble)
Feb 01 18:50:00 <ralphschindler> Thinkscape: by Feature, do you mean Trait ?
Feb 01 18:50:10 <weierophinney> I sprung this yesterday in #zftalk.2 : do we want to consider a minimum version of 5.4 for ZF2.
Feb 01 18:50:10 <ralphschindler> b/c that particular poll is specifically about traits
Feb 01 18:50:19 <weierophinney> ralphschindler, yes
Feb 01 18:50:23 <weierophinney> but we've moved on now.
Feb 01 18:50:30 <ralphschindler> Thinkscape: pm
Feb 01 18:50:31 <DASPRiD> why not just call that namespace "Trait"… or "Mixin"
Feb 01 18:50:31 <weierophinney> So, re: 5.4.
Feb 01 18:50:40 <EvanDotPro> personally i'd be +1 for 5.4 (i probably want it more than most here), but in general, i think it might be jumping the gun.
Feb 01 18:50:41 <weierophinney> DASPRiD, WE'VE MOVED ON
Feb 01 18:50:52 <weierophinney> So, let me summarize a few points real quick.
Feb 01 18:50:52 <DASPRiD> weierophinney, that was just a sidenote
Feb 01 18:51:03 <NickBelhomme_> Personally seeing how ZF2 is evolving
Feb 01 18:51:04 <EvanDotPro> my concern in NOT going with 5.4 is that we now have to also maintain zf2 on 5.3 while we move on to zf3.
Feb 01 18:51:13 <NickBelhomme_> I think we should consider targetting 5.4
Feb 01 18:51:38 <weierophinney> One reason to consider it is (a) mainteance later down the line (less to rewrite), (b) pushing 5.4 adoption, and (c) baseline performance of the framework (5.4 is faster even than 5.3)
Feb 01 18:51:47 <weierophinney> that's actually three reasons. Whatever.
Feb 01 18:52:15 <weierophinney> As a few folks noted, there are a lot of companies already planning for ZF2, and since we've said 5.3 all along, this is a bit of an upset.
Feb 01 18:52:15 <EvanDotPro> let's even ignore (b) as that shouldn't be our primary influence in this decision, just a potential positive side-effect
Feb 01 18:52:29 <DASPRiD> mh, c) is no really valid, current zf2 already makes use of the performance gain in 5.4, no?
Feb 01 18:52:41 <NickBelhomme_> I agree with EvanDotPro , 2.0 took already 1.5 years, if you want to produce zf3.0 it will take again a long time, so why not put it in there already, 1 less major version to maintain
Feb 01 18:52:52 <weierophinney> DASPRiD, I said baseline – we'd be able to depend on that for all ZF2 users.
Feb 01 18:52:56 <ocramius> (c) isn't valid for me too....
Feb 01 18:53:14 <PadraicB> I'm -1 - for personal reasons: I'm invested in PHP 5.3 for at least another 12 months.
Feb 01 18:53:19 <weierophinney> So, on the flip side of things... 5.3 adoption has not been getting a ton of traction, particularly in distros.
Feb 01 18:53:29 <flavius> weierophinney: those companies are ready to make the jump, right? so why not do it to 5.4 then, if they do it anyway?
Feb 01 18:53:40 <MikeA> I thought about this all day: I was definate NO due to limited number of 5.4 hosts. However, what about with VMs whereby developers can load 5.4 if hosts don't want to?
Feb 01 18:53:40 <weierophinney> and for those who have, moving to 5.4 seems to be a "it's a ways in the future yet"
Feb 01 18:54:01 <weierophinney> flavius, see above: distros are not necessarily making the jump, and not everyone wants to maintain their own packages.
Feb 01 18:54:17 <flavius> long live archlinux heh
Feb 01 18:54:23 <weierophinney> MikeA, that was part of my argument as well.
Feb 01 18:54:31 <NickBelhomme_> I gave a talk on php5.4 this weekend, and if the room was packed with 100 people, only 4 had tried php5.4 (1 was including derick)
Feb 01 18:54:31 <DASPRiD> so ubuntu will have php 5.4 in april: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-php54
Feb 01 18:54:41 <weierophinney> Anyways, that's the summary of the discussion.
Feb 01 18:54:54 <NickBelhomme_> so ... that says something about the frontline of PHP devs (conference people are considered front line)
Feb 01 18:55:02 <ocramius> NickBelhomme_: haven't tried it on my own too if not for travis...
Feb 01 18:55:06 <Aldemar> -1 to 5.4 here
Feb 01 18:55:09 <weierophinney> DASPRiD, it's a blueprint. Discussion on the internals list is they may back out of that due to lack of a few security patches they feel are critical.
Feb 01 18:55:12 <NickBelhomme_> low interest in new techs, features
Feb 01 18:55:13 <EvanDotPro> i think it's at least worth putting up for a community vote
Feb 01 18:55:51 <Slamdunk> +1 for community vote
Feb 01 18:55:53 <weierophinney> One thing I didn't note: we can OFFER traits for end-user consumption, without making ZF2 require 5.4 to operate.
Feb 01 18:55:55 <ralphschindler> EvanDotPro: zf2-meeting vote, or a poll on the wiki?
Feb 01 18:56:05 <weierophinney> poll on the wiki, I think.
Feb 01 18:56:07 <DASPRiD> weierophinney, yeah, it is probably more likely to get 5.4 in ubuntu 12.10 (which is a non LTS release…)
Feb 01 18:56:17 <Thinkscape> -1 for offering traits in PHP 5.3 framework
Feb 01 18:56:19 <MikeA> Turning to the marketing aspect of this bombshell, you put it up for community vote and there comes potential for negative press feedback
Feb 01 18:56:21 <Thinkscape> That's confusng
Feb 01 18:56:21 <weierophinney> DASPRiD, and that highlights the concerns for some.
Feb 01 18:56:22 <ocramius> EvanDotPro: ok for the poll on the meeting
Feb 01 18:56:24 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, why?
Feb 01 18:56:32 <Aldemar> to launch something in a tech that doesn't have at least 1 year (5.4) in the market is not well seen
Feb 01 18:56:39 <EvanDotPro> SpiffyJr metioned that is seems a little late for a change like this, being half way through beta, but i feel like maintaining zf2 on 5.3 and then trying to move on with zf2 on 5.4 will turn into a huge headache and hold things back a lot.
Feb 01 18:56:39 <EvanDotPro> ralphschindler: poll on the wiki, at LEAST 7 days with posts to the mailing list.. it's a rather large decision, everyone should have voice
Feb 01 18:56:42 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, if it makes development easier/faster for those useing 5.4, why not offer them?
Feb 01 18:56:53 <ralphschindler> +1 to EvanDotPro's suggestion
Feb 01 18:57:08 <weierophinney> EvanDotPro, +1
Feb 01 18:57:12 <Slamdunk> +1 to EvanDotPro's suggestion
Feb 01 18:57:16 <ocramius> +1
Feb 01 18:57:17 <Aldemar> zf2.5 should be in 5.4, by now we should stay using 5.3
Feb 01 18:57:20 <DASPRiD> EvanDotPro, i don't really see that zf2->3 transition would take up much time
Feb 01 18:57:26 <ralphschindler> although, and this is directed at weierophinney - how do we resolve the greater good against the needs of a few?
Feb 01 18:57:28 <Thinkscape> weierophinney: the same reason there aren't any 5.3 features used in zf1
Feb 01 18:57:28 <MikeA> EvanDotPro: that's a technologists POV – business people who pay for projects want security
Feb 01 18:57:42 <EvanDotPro> DASPRiD: i mean ongoing maintenance holding us back / slowing us down, mostly.
Feb 01 18:57:50 <EvanDotPro> DASPRiD: think of the constant backports
Feb 01 18:58:00 <EvanDotPro> zf2 users will press for white a long period of support
Feb 01 18:58:00 <ralphschindler> i suspect the larger community wants to target 5.4, but we need to decide what we're sacrificing and if its worth it
Feb 01 18:58:01 <weierophinney> Aldemar, we can't jump to a new minor version of PHP within the same major cycle.
Feb 01 18:58:04 <Aldemar> +1 MikeA
Feb 01 18:58:09 <DASPRiD> EvanDotPro, didn't we want to shorten the release cycles anyway?
Feb 01 18:58:17 <EvanDotPro> s/white/quite
Feb 01 18:58:19 <NickBelhomme_> DASPRiD, zf2->zf3 is not a big transition, but some will not host 5.4 and thus you have to maintain to frameworks
Feb 01 18:58:20 <DASPRiD> and thus, the lifetime cycles?
Feb 01 18:58:28 <NickBelhomme_> s/to/two
Feb 01 18:58:29 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, this is different. We'd be offering code for end-user use, not for internal use.
Feb 01 18:58:35 <DASPRiD> NickBelhomme_, well at least for some time…
Feb 01 18:58:58 <Thinkscape> My opinion: zf2 already requires a lot of commitment in both consumption and extension. It requires a new php ver (as compared to zf1) so the adoption will be abysmal at first. BUT – zf2 is "cutting-edge" so it can use any modern php version.
Feb 01 18:59:16 <DASPRiD> weierophinney, zf2 release was planned around summer/zendcon, right?
Feb 01 18:59:29 <Thinkscape> We can argue 5.4 vs 5.3 the same way we argue 5.1 vs 5.3 — same thing, same problems in some businesses and webhosts ..
Feb 01 18:59:30 <MikeA> I suggest some research of hosts intentions around the world before embarking on this route
Feb 01 18:59:33 <NickBelhomme_> the users who will be using zf2 will already be the bleeding edge of devs
Feb 01 18:59:37 <weierophinney> DASPRiD, no planned date, but currently targetting summer.
Feb 01 18:59:53 <DASPRiD> weierophinney, well, by then, not all of the major distros will have 5.4
Feb 01 18:59:55 <NickBelhomme_> I do not see general devs implement it too be honest, sorry guys
Feb 01 19:00:08 <Aldemar> Thinkscape: there are some hosts that hasn't even upgrade to 5.3 yet
Feb 01 19:00:11 <NickBelhomme_> not at least the first year after release
Feb 01 19:00:16 <flavius> +1 "the users who will be using zf2 will already be the bleeding edge of devs"
Feb 01 19:00:19 <DASPRiD> which basically answers the question to not go for php5.4 dependency
Feb 01 19:01:00 <weierophinney> would anyone here like to volunteer and reach out to some of the major hosting companies, and find out plans for 5.3/5.4 adoption?
Feb 01 19:01:09 <Thinkscape> Aldemar: EXACTLY, but you've proven my point
Feb 01 19:01:16 <Thinkscape> There are probably hosts that haven't upgraded to 5.0
Feb 01 19:01:19 <EvanDotPro> in the first wave of zf2 users, developers without control of thier _AMPP stack are probably going to be a minority, if i had to venture a guess.
Feb 01 19:01:22 <MikeA> What's the possibility of starting ZF3 to run in parallel with ZF2?
Feb 01 19:01:27 <Thinkscape> not in the scope of zf2 which is advanced as it is (code-wise)
Feb 01 19:01:38 <weierophinney> MikeA, we actually already forked with that idea in mind when at ZendCon
Feb 01 19:01:44 <Aldemar> Thinkscape: lol, no php5, that would be the cheapest
Feb 01 19:01:56 <NickBelhomme_> maintaining ZF1, ZF2 and ZF3 => horrible
Feb 01 19:02:01 <MikeA> weierophinney: that's interesting – and?
Feb 01 19:02:03 <EvanDotPro> NickBelhomme_: exactly my concern
Feb 01 19:02:05 <DASPRiD> EvanDotPro, sure, on a root you can install anything you want… but usually sys admins go with the distributions packages
Feb 01 19:02:15 <weierophinney> MikeA, it's possible, but see NickBelhomme_ and EvanDotPro
Feb 01 19:02:34 <ocramius> Ok, now I'm confused...
Feb 01 19:02:36 <Thinkscape> why zf3?? zf3 === zf2+traits ? awful
Feb 01 19:02:52 <Thinkscape> Guys – regarding packages
Feb 01 19:02:52 <EvanDotPro> DASPRiD: sysadmins should be at the mercy of the web developers – the organization you're describing has a flawed setup
Feb 01 19:02:54 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, it would be more than that
Feb 01 19:03:06 <ocramius> I'm thinking about symfony 2 in this exact moment and about doctrine 2, which has no file caching mechanism, and which almost requires the user to provide a VM
Feb 01 19:03:12 <Thinkscape> zf2 launch === distro packages of 5.4 + 1 month (at least)
Feb 01 19:03:15 <EvanDotPro> DASPRiD: let's not get off topic, that's a different argument lol
Feb 01 19:03:22 <ocramius> and this is a case where 5.4 could be addressed by the dev
Feb 01 19:03:35 <EvanDotPro> anyway – i have to take off, but see my earlier suggestion.
Feb 01 19:03:40 <DASPRiD> EvanDotPro, i personally won't upgrade my server as well and wait for the ubuntu dist-upgrade (+1 month for usual patches)
Feb 01 19:03:41 <MikeA> whether it's Zf2, ZF3 or ZF2 & 3 there are going to be maintenance issues – they are technical, not business strategy matters
Feb 01 19:04:07 <EvanDotPro> "poll on the wiki, at LEAST 7 days with posts to the mailing list.. it's a rather large decision, everyone should have voice"
Feb 01 19:04:18 <Bittarman> zf3? thats quite a clanger to turn up and see talked about
Feb 01 19:04:20 <Aldemar_> we haven't released 2.0 and we are talking about 3.0
Feb 01 19:04:21 <ralphschindler> +1, polls can have comments btw
Feb 01 19:04:22 <EvanDotPro> ^^ that's my vote here
Feb 01 19:04:28 <EvanDotPro> ralphschindler: yep
Feb 01 19:04:34 »» Thinkscape_ got disconnected
Feb 01 19:04:44 <EvanDotPro> anyway, i'll be back in ~30 in ztalk.2 at least.
Feb 01 19:05:02 <Thinkscape_> sooo - zf3 should be a huge leap forward, same as zf2 compared to zf1
Feb 01 19:05:10 <ocramius> btw, I guess I'll think about it a bit more, because I just changed my idea to "+1", which means I have no clear ideas
Feb 01 19:05:37 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape_, not neccessarly
Feb 01 19:05:38 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, see, that's where you're in disagreement with a lot of folks. The discussions since August are suggesting devs want shorter intervals between major releases, with fewer big changes.
Feb 01 19:05:55 <DASPRiD> yeah, switchting to a rapid release model
Feb 01 19:05:55 <NickBelhomme_> weierophinney, +1
Feb 01 19:06:02 <NickBelhomme_> DASPRiD, +1
Feb 01 19:06:09 <weierophinney> I'm going to call it at this point, as we're past the hour.
Feb 01 19:06:19 »» Aldemar_ is now known as Aldemar
Feb 01 19:06:26 <weierophinney> Let's open a poll on the wiki, and start a discussion there, on the ML, and in #zftalk.2
Feb 01 19:06:26 <NickBelhomme_> so we follow EvanDotPro his suggestion?
Feb 01 19:06:32 <Bittarman> whats wrong with jsut offering support for 5.4 in zf2, but not making it a minimum, like we already do in zf1 for php 5.3
Feb 01 19:06:34 <weierophinney> we'll leave it open for at least a week.
Feb 01 19:06:43 <Thinkscape_> ugh, that means less consistency, parallel maintenance of several concurrent versions, documentation nightmare, missing features...
Feb 01 19:06:45 <Aldemar> +1 weierophinney
Feb 01 19:06:49 <weierophinney> Bittarman, I suggested that earlier. Most like the idea. Thinkscape hates it.
Feb 01 19:06:56 <Thinkscape_> i.e. in one point in time you could have zf3, zf4, zf5 :\
Feb 01 19:07:12 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, we need to setup a release policy, obviously, so that doesn't happen.
Feb 01 19:07:12 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape_, not different than prior minor releases
Feb 01 19:07:14 <flavius> zfx++
Feb 01 19:07:16 <Thinkscape_> weierophinney: wait, don't stick me out
Feb 01 19:07:22 <Thinkscape_> It's about project management
Feb 01 19:07:24 <Bittarman> weierophinney ah, k. that had me worried, (was scanning up and down the backlog thinking wtf!)
Feb 01 19:07:27 <DASPRiD> weierophinney, Thinkscape_: heh, think: Firefox
Feb 01 19:07:32 <Thinkscape_> show me a good way to do it for "a php framework" and I'm all in
Feb 01 19:07:32 <weierophinney> Thinkscape, the idea is 18-24 months between major releases.
Feb 01 19:07:34 <MikeA> Thinkscape_: that's an area of persuasion for me
Feb 01 19:07:39 <Thinkscape_> Firefox is NOT php framework
Feb 01 19:07:43 <Thinkscape_> same as Google Chrome
Feb 01 19:07:56 <Thinkscape_> ZF will not auto-update itself in the background ...
Feb 01 19:08:04 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape_, heh…
Feb 01 19:08:07 <Thinkscape_> weierophinney: 18-24 mo is ok!
Feb 01 19:08:08 <weierophinney> As such, fewer big bits need rewriting, but newer versions are happening more frequently to allow BC breaks, architectural changes, etc – just more targetted.
Feb 01 19:08:15 <Thinkscape_> So that leaves us zf2 for the next 18 months
Feb 01 19:08:19 <weierophinney> Thinkscape_, right.
Feb 01 19:08:25 <Thinkscape_> back to business - php 5.4 for zf2 or not ?
Feb 01 19:08:28 <MikeA> I'm for letting folk dwell on this for a week or two before polling
Feb 01 19:08:34 <weierophinney> at about which time, ZF1 support ends, leaving us with just ZF2 + ZF3
Feb 01 19:08:39 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape_, well, in 18 months, php 5.4 should be spread enough
Feb 01 19:08:39 <ralphschindler> +1 on MikeA
Feb 01 19:08:43 <Thinkscape_> or wait for zf3 and in 18 months we could have php 6
Feb 01 19:08:44 <weierophinney> MikeA, +1
Feb 01 19:08:46 <Bittarman> Thinkscape_, we already do it for php 5.3 support in zf1... whats so bad about it in zf2??
Feb 01 19:08:47 <ralphschindler> lets do the poll between next meeting and the one following
Feb 01 19:08:52 <ralphschindler> one major poll at at a time
Feb 01 19:08:53 <weierophinney> Thinkscape_, unlikely.
Feb 01 19:08:53 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape_, heh
Feb 01 19:09:09 <weierophinney> kk
Feb 01 19:09:10 <PadraicB> Sry, missed the conversation .
Feb 01 19:09:11 <weierophinney> so...
Feb 01 19:09:13 <Thinkscape_> ... just a general idea... call it php 5.6 or whatever
Feb 01 19:09:28 <ocramius> MikeA: spread the word...
Feb 01 19:09:30 <weierophinney> Summary: we'll do a poll on the wiki, and have continued discussion in the comments there, on the ML, and in IRC.
Feb 01 19:09:31 <Thinkscape_> We are at tipping point now — between 5.3 and 5.4, next major
Feb 01 19:09:38 <PadraicB> Guys, is there some fundamental reason why ZF2 should adopt 5.4? This is a massive course correction right at the end of the process.
Feb 01 19:09:44 <weierophinney> Poll will open officially in 1 week, and stay open in a week.
Feb 01 19:10:13 <weierophinney> PadraicB, the reasons I raised it are because 5.4 is dropping in the next few weeks as stable.
Feb 01 19:10:25 <Bittarman> PadraicB, because in a years time, it would be nice for zf2 users to be able to make use of php 5.4 features, without being held back by their framework.
Feb 01 19:10:26 <weierophinney> And there are a number of features that could make development and maintenance easier.
Feb 01 19:10:27 <DASPRiD> PadraicB, i would +1 it only if php 5.4 would already be in all major distris by now
Feb 01 19:10:29 <Thinkscape_> + traits for de-duplication and add-on functionality for user classes
Feb 01 19:10:38 <NickBelhomme_> If ZF2 would be released as stable within 2 months => NO
Feb 01 19:10:50 <Thinkscape_> DASPRiD: will you +1 for that idea in may ?
Feb 01 19:10:51 <MikeA> DASPRiD: +1
Feb 01 19:11:13 <Thinkscape_> Remember - We are talking future .... not TODAY, because today is not zf2 RC day.
Feb 01 19:11:21 <ralphschindler> All in favor of discussing this in #zftalk.2 for a week, then, if it makes sense and its still valid, polling to the larger community between next wed. and the wed following?
Feb 01 19:11:24 <DASPRiD> exactly Thinkscape_
Feb 01 19:11:29 <MikeA> Dare I say it, how long did it take MS to stabilise?
Feb 01 19:11:30 <Thinkscape_> so – should zf2 be php 5.4 WHEN it shipps mid 2012
Feb 01 19:11:31 <NickBelhomme_> ralphschindler, +1
Feb 01 19:11:32 <Thinkscape_> ?
Feb 01 19:11:36 <weierophinney> PadraicB, but we can have more discussion – I only wanted to raise it for discussion with this meeting.
Feb 01 19:11:56 <weierophinney> MikeA, bad analogy.
Feb 01 19:11:59 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape_, i wouldn't be able to run it on my dev machine, bad idea
Feb 01 19:12:04 <Aldemar> we have here +20 servers running 5.2 that haven't been able to update because of legacy applications, Now I'm trying to make the business understand that the path is zf2+5.3 and you are talking about 5.4!
Feb 01 19:12:10 <MikeA> weierophinney: couldn't resist
Feb 01 19:12:19 <weierophinney> MikeA, LOL
Feb 01 19:12:20 <Thinkscape_> DASPRiD: you lazy a.... dev... compile it
Feb 01 19:12:30 <weierophinney> Aldemar, that's why we're discussing it now, not deciding on it yet.
Feb 01 19:12:34 <Thinkscape_> Aldemar: so skip 5.3
Feb 01 19:12:38 <Thinkscape_> straight to 5.4
Feb 01 19:12:48 <Thinkscape_> (faster, safer, better, more lifetime ahead)
Feb 01 19:12:51 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape_, surely not compiling it
Feb 01 19:12:58 <weierophinney> Aldemar, bring up your concerns and what's driving them in the ML/IRC/etc so we can all understand how this affects users.
Feb 01 19:13:07 <Thinkscape_> DASPRiD: I'll hack your box and compile it for you..
Feb 01 19:13:09 <MikeA> Thinkscape_: then why isn't all the rage now?
Feb 01 19:13:10 <weierophinney> kk
Feb 01 19:13:11 <Aldemar> Thinkscape_, safer? 5.4 is already in rc
Feb 01 19:13:18 <weierophinney> LET'S MOVE DISCUSSION TO #zftalk.2
Feb 01 19:13:22 <DASPRiD> Thinkscape_, and make a deb package?
Feb 01 19:13:24 <weierophinney> thanks all for coming!


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NCUF Hires Josie Collins as Resource Development & Donor Relations Director
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Denise received her J.D. from Hofstra University School of Law and she received her B.A. from the State University of New York at Binghamton. Immediately prior to joining NYU in 2001, Denise was Special Counsel at Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP (fka Rosenman & Colin LLP) for approximately four years. Previously, she was an associate at Jaffe & Asher in New York and an associate counsel at Coronet Properties Company, a real estate development firm in New York.
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Last week was the 3rd annual A4U Expo and I thought I would share some thoughts on it here. For me, the real benefit of the conference was the opportunity to network, have meetings with people that I don't normally have the opportunity to and also to catch up with old friends. Because I'm based in Sunderland and the companies that I work close with or predominantly based in the South then the Expo was a great chance to meet up with them in the same location and cram as many meetings in a couple of days.It was also great to just wander round the exhibition and catch up with friends who I normally only get the chance to speak to at these events. As I was on 3 panels over the 2 days I thought I'd give my impressions on how they went: The Affiliate Doctors Live - Day 1, 12pm to 1pm Myself, Chris Garrett, Duncan Jennings, Jamie Harwood and Dixon Jones gave our honest opinions and ideas for a whole range of websites that were submitted in advance to us via this blog. Some of the sites we talked about were Sletoh.com, DVDBoxsets.co.uk, HomeandGardengifts.co.uk, Geekery.in, MobileMentalism.com and WhereCanIBuyOnline.com. Speaking to some of the site owners after the session, they seemed happy with the advice we had given out. Overall this was a fun session to run and I hope everyone thought we gave some useful tips. Start-up And Launch Strategy - Day 2, 12.15pm to 1.15pm I was really pleased to be on this panel as it was the "music" panel with me representing ShareMyPlaylists.com, Seatwave, GigLocator and Spotify in attendance. We were asked questions from the audience as well as our moderator, Pamir, who did an excellent job of keeping the conversation running. Feedback after the session was absolutely fantastic and it was brilliant to see a full room for this session. For me it was interesting to hear how other companies in this space were affected with similar issues to myself, especially around getting word out for your business, boot strapping, investment etc. Meet The Super Affiliates - Day 2, 4pm to 5pm As this was the second last panel on the last day and there were more than a few people in the audience who had clearly suffered "death by Powerpoint" from previous sessions I knew that it would be a bit of a challenge to get the audience participating. So after a slow start I invited questions via Twitter which seemed to get things going and also helped out those in the audience who were a bit shy or hesitant to speak out to a room full of people. Sessions like this are always a bit out of my control as we rely completely on the audience asking us good questions. Hopefully we answered as honestly and entertaining as we could and nobody was disappointed. If anybody was wondering why I gave the guy in the front of the audience a bit of a hard time when he asked about what would we do when Google ban all affiliate sites it was because he spent the WHOLE of the session talking to the person next to him and was very distracting. In fact I was very close to asking him to leave. The 3 sessions that I would have liked to have seen but unfortunately missed were Joanna Butler's "Barriers to Conversion and Discovering Untapped Opportunities with Analytics" - mainly because Joanna is a good friend, knows her stuff and it was me who persuaded her to talk :) Judging by the feedback I heard about her talk afterwards she did a great job. I was also gutted I missed Dom's, Naomi and Mel's talk entitled "You want to Tweet What!? - Social Media, Twitter and Affiliate Marketing" which was very entertaining by all accounts. Finally, Nadeem's "My 12 biggest mistakes in 12 years" was very well received, most probably because he used a quote from me in his first slide :) What were your thoughts on the a4uexpo? Do you have any feedback from any of the sessions that I was involved in? Please leave your comments below, I'd love to hear from you :) What I'm listening to right now: Polly Scattergood - "Please Don't Touch" More a4uexpo blog posts: Official a4uexpo Slideshare channel Nadeem The Bearded Warrior One Little Duck Ray Elaine Messy Desk Shopzilla CJ Lammo GeoffBlog SEOGadget Search Cowboys
a4uexpo thoughts
16 Responses to a4uexpo thoughts
As owner of one of websites you guys reviewed (MobileMentalism), iwaiting to have your website critiqued by you guys in front of an audience of 100s was terrifying!
But you guys rocked though great advice, and all delivered in an easy-going, constructive way.
Joanna's talk on analytics was also great, as was the whole analytics session (though way too painful for the hangover I had at the time
In short, A4UExpo was a great event all round. Learned a tonne of stuff, met some great people, some great contacts, and had fun all the way through.
Will definitely be back next year
Thanks for the link to Nadeem's presentation. Interesting to see that we all go through the same learning curve!
Thanks for the compliments.
I am gutted I missed your sessions Kieron. Your 'Meet the Super Affiliates' is one of my favourites each year. Hopefully they'll release the vids soon, so I get to see you in all your glory.
Very good talk about Twittering from the very funny Dom and the gang. Anyone know where I can see it again?
Hi Kieron,
Found the Affiliate Doctors session really useful (especially as my site was featured! ) thanks again for all the feedback & ideas with that.
I was wondering why the guy at the front of the Super Affiliates session got a bit of a grilling! I just thought it was because it was a bit of pointless question (IMO)
Anyway, great to meet you and already looking forward to A4u Expo 2010!
I really enjoyed the affiliate doctors session – and thank you for the advice on my site Kieron. Meeting you in person and getting your opinions were a highlight of my first A4U Expo. And you were a lot more down to earth than I expected I'm already working on all that I can remember from the session – learned a lot from the other sites being reviewed too – and looking forward to the video going online (I hear there should be videos of all sessions?) at some point, so I can make sure I've remembered all the advice correctly.
I also enjoyed meeting lots of wonderful new friends and contacts at the final night's party, and thoroughly enjoyed Nadeem's talk on his biggest affiliate marketing mistakes too!
I haven't written up my own A4U expo review yet, but will be doing so this week as soon as I get chance!
Thanks again,
ahh! it makes sense now about the guy in the front row in the super affiliates session. i was sat fairly near & couldn't figure out what was going on.
i missed nadeem's talk, but have just looked through the slides & wish i hadn't. that was the only tiny negative for me: there was one point where 3 sessions i wanted to be in all clashed. can't help that though!
it was my first a4u. very much enjoyed it & very much hope to get the chance to keep going.
loved the positivity of most of the sessions, learning new bits and bobs, and meeting everyone.
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Was a good couple of days and some really good sessions. I'm glad the ask the super affiliate one finally got going after it looked like it was stalling at the start.
Jason beat me to the first twitter question by a couple of seconds but mine was only more to try and get things going rather than something of much interest so I'll let you off for not asking it
Thanks again for reviewing sletoh Kieron. It was great to have the feedback of both the Doctors and the audience, although having only one person like the name 'sletoh' was a disappointment!
Strange thing about the feedback was that it confirmed my fears on duplicate content – I think I was trying to find another reason for the site's lack of search engine traffic! We have now set about creating some content for sletoh – it's going to be a long slog as the site has 80,000 pages! But then if it was easy, everyone would do it!
After the name got a beating and nobody realised it was "hotels" spelt backwards, we are also having the logo re-designed. It was telling when the Doctors revealed wat sletoh stood for and the audience let a "oh yeah" in unison!
Thanks again,
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about me
Welcome to my blog. My name is Kieron Donoghue and I am the founder of Playlists.net.
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The Roman army has marched to Munich! Few expected Abramovich's Chelsea to overcome the mighty Barcelona. But after 90 thrilling minutes last night, the brilliance of Messi and co lost out to a gutsy performance by the London side. Can they now go one better and be crowned champions of Europe? Real Madrid or Bayern Munich will have something to say about that. One thing is for sure: this will be a night to remember. Join us for our world-class hospitality! We have only 20 hospitality places left! Don't miss, contact us now: firstname.lastname@example.com.
Central London will become a haven for Irish celebrations this summer, with the announcement that the Irish Olympic House will be opening its doors in Kings Cross to coincide with the start of the 2012 Olympic Games. thg Sports Tours, in association with the Olympic Council of Ireland, is pleased to announce that the official Irish Olympic House will be located at the Big Chill House, a stone's throw from King's Cross St Pancras station, and its Olympic site services.
thg Sports Tours CEO James Sinton comments, "We are delighted to be partnering with the Big Chill House as it is an iconic brand and its owners bring a wealth of entertainment experience to the table. They have long been associated with cutting edge music venues and bars as well as the hugely popular Big Chill Festival. This really is going to be an exciting summer celebrating with Team Ireland as it goes for Olympic gold."
The Irish Olympic House will be a place where everybody can visit and enjoy the friendly Irish atmosphere whilst cheering on the athletes. It will provide an out-of-competition base for athletes and their supporters, as well as representatives of the Olympic Council of Ireland and their guests. Visitors can enjoy the live Olympic action on large screens, chill with a pint and a bite to eat, enjoy an abundance of live entertainment, tap along to a traditional Irish music session or simply relax in the sunshine on the roof terrace.
Throughout the Games, the Irish Olympic House will feature guest appearances from various "Ambassadors" including well known Irish musicians, comedians and actors, who will bring the very best of Irish entertainment to London. We will be announcing the names of some of our ambassadors very soon.
"We want the Irish Olympic House to be the No. 1 party destination at the Games," James Sinton continues, "and so we are working with some of Ireland's top artists to ensure we can replicate the atmosphere and excitement of a true Irish night out. By concealing the names of our ambassadors, we will be creating word of mouth and social media excitement which, we believe, will drive high levels of repeat visitors to The Irish Olympic House, making it the No. 1 entertainment destination for visitors during the Olympics."
"As a nation, the Irish are famed for their love of sport and of celebration and we are confident that the recently re-launched Big Chill House will provide us with the perfect location to bring the very best of Ireland to our visitors."
Kings Cross will be one of the main transport hubs during the London Olympics and a frequent "Javelin" train will run between King's Cross St Pancras station and the Olympic Park, taking just seven minutes and carrying up to 25,000 passengers per hour.
Pat Hickey, President of the Olympic Council of Ireland commented: "The London Games are so geographically close to us that we are treating it as a 'home' Olympics. Therefore we feel a strong obligation to cater for Irish people travelling to the event to support Team Ireland and to the Irish diaspora living in the UK. The Irish Olympic House will undoubtedly be a magnet for our supporters due to its excellent central location and superb facilities. It will, of course, be open to all-comers and nationalities and we expect it to be a huge success."
The Irish Olympic House at the Big Chill House will open its doors for business on Friday 27 July and will play host to an anticipated 40,000 people during the Games, closing on Sunday 12th August. The Irish House will be operational between 10am and 2am daily.
Be the first to hear about exclusive ticket offers by signing up online at www.irishhouse-london2012.com. For up to the minute news about The Irish House, follow @irishhouse2012 on Twitter.
thg Sports Tours is the official authorised Olympic ticket agent for Ireland www.thgsportstours.com.
With the London Olympics fast approaching, fans should be pleased to know that tickets are still available for some sessions through certain official ticket resellers.
The marcus evans THG Sports Tours ("THG") Company has confirmed the availability of tickets for various athletics, badminton, basketball, beach volleyball, boxing, equestrian eventing, football, judo, shooting, table tennis, tennis, volleyball and weightlifting sessions, excluding finals.
"For Ireland, the best medal prospect will be in boxing. It is our biggest medal success sport and we have a great young team coming up for London," Patrick Hickey, the President of the Olympic Council of Ireland recently told The Irish World.
Boxing has been a part of the Olympics since the 1904 Summer Games, and the 2012 Games will include women's boxing for the first time. The football and weightlifting sessions are also major features of the Olympics programme, and are drawing a lot of interest from the public.
Tickets are only available from the authorised ticket resellers appointed by The London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games, and are on a first come first serve basis. THG also has a limited number of accommodation and hospitality packages still available.
THG Sports, which provides sports ticketing services and corporate hospitality programmes at sporting events around the world, is the authorised ticket reseller for Ireland, Greece and Malta, but tickets are available to all European Union Residents in accordance with the provisions of EU Law. THG is also organising the Irish House in London, open to all those who would like to follow the Games with company, exclusive entertainment and good food.
For further information on the purchase of tickets to the London 2012 Games, please visit: www.tickets.london2012.com or the THG website: www.thgsports.com.
"THG Sports Tours is an Authorised Ticket Reseller for the countries of Ireland, Greece and Malta. All ticket, accommodation and hospitality packages are subject to availability and completed order form to the residents of the above named countries. Under EU rules THG Sports Tours may also accept requests from other country residents that are members of the European Economic Area."
Ho ho ho, uh-oh. Here's a little present from THG to get you in the festive spirit. Help Santa hurdle his way to Olympic glory. Reach the finish line and win a special bonus for our sports spectaculars. Have a golden 2012 – and don't forget to let your friends and colleagues have a go at "Santa vs Rudolph" too. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Click on the banner to play the game.
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The 2011 Rugby World Cup now seems like a distant memory, but for fans and teams alike the time is closely approaching when countries will be able to prove their ability once more. It February of 2012 France, Italy, Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England will once again meet in the annual 6 nations tournament to compete against one another for the title of European Champions. The competition itself has a different layout than the world with countries playing a combination of home and away games over the period of several weeks in an attempt to rack up the most points at the end to see who has performed best. THG Sports will be providing hospitality to 6 different matches in 4 different countries to see some of these tests.
The question that everyone is going to be asking themselves is how certain European countries will fare in this competition compared to the battles they had in New Zealand only a few months ago. Countries were in a position in 2011 where they were able to warm up against weaker competitors , like the US and Russia, but in the 6 nations each match will be against a decisive and powerful team. On the other hand, the teams will have more time to recuperate after their matches. A final component that will change the dynamics of this tournament as opposed to the world cup will be the fact that the 6 competing teams will not have to worry about facing giants like South Africa, Australia and reigning world champions The All Blacks.
Make this Christmas extra special for a work colleague or business associate by providing them with a THG sports package. THG are specialist in providing corporate hospitality with excellent service and a committed team of event organizers. For business people, THG events allow you to reward your colleagues or strengthen relationship with business associates. Don't hesitate and book now to guarantee the sporting experience of a lifetime!
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This year at the Rugby World Cup final in Auckland New Zealand, THG Sports were able to organize an appearance by Zinzan Brooke at the hospitality venue. Rugby fans will know Zinzan as one of the most talented No.8's to ever play the game who retired from international rugby in 2001.The kiwi has the strong and powerful build of an intimidating back-row player, however, what made him special however was the addition of skill, agility and speed of a front row player. The most shining example of this skill was displayed in 1995 when Zinzan scored a 40ft drop kick against England in the semi-final. In 2007 Will Carlin, former England captain, wrote a article in Telegraph newspaper where he voted Zinzan as No.8 on the top 50 Rugby players of all time.
Few may know him another reason as well, since retirement the New Zealand rugby sensation has relocated to the town of Windsor in the United Kingdom. Here, along with his wife Alison, Zinzan has acquired an old Bed and Breakfast and has aimed to renovate it with a personal touch. The Frances Lodge is a quaint and refurbished old Victorian property that occupies Zinzan's time when he is not playing for the amateur rugby team in his village.
Here are a few snippets from Zinzan's interview and his opinions on a few matters:
On children and playing sports:
"I followed a long ambition of every kiwi boy."
"I'm a firm believer of what my mom and dad did, which was to sewn the seeds of giving your kids all the opportunities you can and at the end of the teenage level here the sport will find you."
On the world cup being hosted in New Zealand:
"It's the fact that the all blacks have a proud tradition, and the success on the field accounts for that. It's the players that have worn the jersey before that have raised the crossbar for the guys that are there now."
"Alot of commercial people are involved here- its something that all the players, people the fans appreciate."
Zinzan was welcome addition to the venue and was excited for the big match in Eden Park only a few hours later when the All Blacks would be in the final against France. Brooke believed that he though New Zealand could win it, but that France had been "banana peels" in past tournaments who could miraculously gain victories when they needed to. Ultimately, the host nation would proudly go on to win the tournament in front of ecstatic home fans at Eden Park.
Simon Clegg, former Team GB Chef de Mission and currently Chief Executive at Ipswich Town Football Club, was yesterday awarded an Honorary Doctorate from University Campus Suffolk (UCS).
Simon led Team GB to its most successful Olympic Games for 100 years at Beijing in 2008 and the seven year campaign to persuade the government and Mayor of London to mount a bid for the 2012 Olympic Games.
Professor Brendon Noble, Head of the School of Science, Technology and Health at UCS, said: "We are delighted to recognise Simon's unique contribution to British sport with this award. Our Sports and Exercise Science, Science of Health Ageing and Regenerative Medicine courses are all related to Simon's industry and we value his input. I know that our students will be inspired by his achievements and commitment in supporting some of our country's best athletes achieve their full potential across British Skiing, the Olympic movement and now football."
Commenting on receipt of his honorary doctorate, Simon Clegg said: "It is an honour and a privilege to be recognised by this august academic institution. My career in sports management has been hugely rewarding in itself but I am extremely flattered to receive this award."
Simon's career included the management of the British Biathlon team and Team GB athletes at 12 Olympic and Olympic Winter games, six of which were as Team GB's Chef de Mission (overall team manager). He was Chief Executive of the European Youth Olympics in Bath in 1995, the largest multi-sport international youth event ever staged in the UK and was the British Olympic Association's first Chief Executive from 1997 to 2008 before being appointed to a similar position at Ipswich Town Football Club in 2009.
He was awarded an OBE in 2001 after leading the British team at the Sydney Olympics Games to its most successful performance since the Antwerp Olympic Games in 1920 and subsequently a CBE in 2005 for his contribution to the British Olympic bid. In 2008 he was awarded the British Sports Journalists Association's annual JL Manning award for the greatest contribution to British Sport off the field of play.


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Just because Ferrari nixed the New Stratos doesn't mean the existing high-performance wedge can't have a little fun on its own. This past March, the F430-based tribute to the rallying great led a littany of classics as the pace car for the Rally Isla Mallorca. The 2012 race marked the one-year anniversary of its debut at the event.
The vintage race consisted of 14 stages, totaling 280 miles, and the New Stratos led the way every time. The number zero affixed to the side marked the New Stratos as the pace vehicle, and signaled the impending classics fast approaching behind it.
The modern interpretation of the classic Italian racer was piloted by the Brose team, which consisted of Michael Stoschek and Dieter Hawkranke. Each evening, when racing ceased, the Stratos, as well as the vintage racing entrants, would take go on display in the yachting community of Portals Nous. However, those who ventured into the mountainous terrain on which the rally was held benefitted from seeing the New Stratos in action. You can see it in action, as well as the classic racers, by watching on the video below.


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Trip to Bali
Bali August 2009This photo was shot on film. Taken by adi_totp with a Holga 120 CFN (available in our Online Shop) loaded with Kodak Ektacolor Pro (120, 160 iso) film in Bali, Indonesia. These tags describe this photo: culture, adi_totp, place, indonesia, people, and bali. Date: 2009-08. This photo can also be found in the album Holga - Bali.
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PARIS -- Total has announced the final investment decision for a first development phase of the Incahuasi gas and condensate field in Bolivia, following the successful drilling results of the ICS-2 exploration well.
Located on the Ipati block 250 km south west of Santa Cruz in the Andean foothills, the development, operated by Total, will involve 3 wells (one on the Aquio block and two on the Ipati block), a gas treatment plant with a capacity of 6.5 Mm3/d and associated export pipelines. First gas, is expected in 2016, of which a large portion will be exported.
The ICS-2 well, drilled to a depth of 5,636 m, is the second successful exploration well on the Ipati Block. The results of two recent tests on this well proved a hydrocarbon column of around 1,100 m in the Devonian Huamampampa fractured sandstones reservoir.
"The very positive results of the last well drilled on the Incahuasi field enabled us to launch a first development phase to help meet growing gas demand in the region," said Ladislas Paszkiewicz, Total E&P Senior Vice President for the Americas. "We shall actively continue our exploration efforts in Bolivia to enable additional developments".
Total plans several more exploration and appraisal wells on the Ipati and Aquio blocks to prove the significant additional potential of the Incahuasi field. Total also plans to commence exploration activities on the neighboring Azero block following the recent signature of an agreement with national energy company YPFB and Gazprom.
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Public Librarians should be UNWired
Location: Local Color (Free WiFi)
I'm IMing with Jenny and pondering her citation of Technobiblio's listing of WiFi spots around the Seattle Convention Center.
My take: Public Libraries should do everything they can to provide a computer -- a laptop -- for all of their librarians. (it's also a pretty snazzy perk in a job where there aren't bonuses and the like...) We have it GOOD at SJCPL, each manager gets a 15" Powerbook and the means to take it anywhere! I am proud of the group that is out here for PLA who brought their Macs. We need to be unwired, in our libraries for sure because you never know when an opportunity or "teaching moment" could appear with a patron or another employee. We need to use laptops at meetings as well. Our most recent managers meeting minutes were taken entirely on a laptop and then emailed to all after a bit of finessing.
We also need to be unwired at conferences like this. Seattle is ultra-tech, ultra-digital and ultra-unwired. Last night at Starbucks, I had 8 different wireless networks swirling around me (all but one was passworded). I think it looks good for the profession for we library-types to set the example that we are techie..."with it" if you will and totally blowing away the stereotypes.
I'm not saying we have to be chained to our machines and be totally geeky, but come on! (I do reserve the right to be totally geeky) At Internet Librarian, Liz Lawley chastised us about having laptops in the room and how different we seemed from "real" tech conferences, where participants were realtime blogging and IMing at meetings. We need to step it up a notch... I'm looking forward to hanging out between sessions and chatting with the UNWired librarians...
More later!
Posted: Wed - February 25, 2004 at 12:19 PM
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Published On: Mar 03, 2004 08:50 PM
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Conservation status: Red
Blackbird-sized the male has an unmistakable bright yellow body with black wings. A secretive bird which keeps to the high tree canopy, it can be heard, most often at dawn, giving its distinctive fluting whistle. It flies rather like a thrush - slightly undulating.
Oriolus oriolus
Orioles (Oriolidae)
Very secretive and difficult to see. May be encountered an migration on the south or east coast of England, but best looked for in the poplar plantations at the RSPB's Lakenheath reserve in Suffolk.
It mainly arrives in mid May and stays until August. Best looked for at first light in a suitable breeding area, particularly large poplar plantations near water. Listening for the song, which can be heard from May to July, is the best way to locate them.
* UK breeding is the number of pairs breeding annually. UK wintering is the number of individuals present from October to March. UK passage is the number of individuals passing through on migration in spring and/or autumn.
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(Updates with Provopoulos comments in third paragraph, Draghi in fourth. For more on the euro crisis, click on EXT4)
Nov. 23 (Bloomberg) -- Greece has one last chance to reshape its economy and stay in the euro region, the country's central bank said, adding to European Union pressure on Greek political leaders to move decisively on economic revamping.
A 130 billion-euro ($174 billion) bailout approved by EU leaders on Oct. 26 "represents a milestone on the adjustment path of the Greek economy," the Bank of Greece said today in its interim monetary policy report. Greece's debt-sustainability dynamics have changed in the past year, putting the country in its most critical situation since World War II.
"We must step up the pace not just to reach our goals but to make up for lost ground," Greek central bank Governor George Provopoulos said in Athens, according to an e-mailed transcript of his statements. "What is at stake is very great: it is Greece remaining a member of the euro and I think that for most Greeks there is no dilemma here. We must succeed."
Provopoulos's stark warning echoes that of new Prime Minister Lucas Papademos, a former vice president of the European Central Bank and former head of the Greek central bank, who has said Greece must remain a member of the euro area. Papademos was appointed this month after former Prime Minister George Papandreou's bid to hold a referendum on the second financing package angered EU leaders, leading to a freeze on payments and throwing markets into disarray.
'Not in Treaty'
It is also at odds with comments from Provopoulos's colleagues on the governing council of the ECB. Mario Draghi, the ECB president, said on Nov. 3 a Greek euro exit was "not in the treaty."
"The new opportunity provided to Greece under the agreement may well be the last opportunity," the Greek central bank said in the e-mailed report. "The country must avoid any further delays and deviations from targets at all costs."
Papademos must implement budget measures to get rescue money from the EU and the International Monetary Fund flowing again. That will also mean arranging a Greek debt swap early next year that aims to slice 100 billion euros off the debt burden of 360 billion euros.
Greece needs the cash by the middle of next month to meet payments on maturing bonds and to pay pensions and wages.
Signatures Needed
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said there will no payout of the next loan tranche from last year's Greek bailout unless the leaders of all parties supporting the country's interim government sign a document pledging adherence to austerity and other measures.
"We need not only the signature of the Greek prime minister, but also the signatures of all supporting parties," she said today in a speech to parliament in Berlin.
On Nov. 22, European Commission President Jose Barroso accused Antonis Samaras, head of the New Democracy party and one the parties backing the Papademos government, of playing "political games" for refusing to commit in writing. Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker yesterday set a one-week deadline for Samaras to sign.
Greek Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos told lawmakers in Athens today that demands from EU leaders for written commitments before paying the 8 billion-euro loan were "no bluff."
'Play With Fire'
"Does anyone believe that the money will be paid because our partners won't leave us hanging?" Venizelos said. "We don't have the right to play with fire. I am certain that all the country's political forces as well as the country's political leaders will do what is needed within the day so that the sixth tranche is released by Dec. 15."
The Bank of Greece forecasts gross domestic product to drop 5.5 percent in 2011 and 2.8 percent next year before returning to growth in 2013, forecasts in line with the 2012 budget submitted to parliament on Nov. 18. Unemployment may exceed 18 percent next year after coming close to 17 percent in 2011, the central bank said.
Papademos's government is racing against a Samaras-imposed deadline for elections on Feb. 19 to get approval for the new financing package, which will provide funds to recapitalize Greek banks after they participate in the debt swap.
The ratio of non-performing loans in the Greek banking industry was 12.8 percent as of June 30, up from 10.5 percent at the end of 2010, according to the report.
--With assistance from Christos Ziotis in Athens and Tony Czuczka in Berlin. Editors: Leon Mangasarian, Andrew Atkinson.
To contact the reporters on this story: Marcus Bensasson in Athens at firstname.lastname@example.com; Maria Petrakis in Athens at firstname.lastname@example.com.
To contact the editor responsible for this story: Craig Stirling at email@example.com


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