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Posted by
FLORIDA -- NCO is so bad, that in 2003, they have been sued 40 times for violations of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA). These suits are usually filed when consumers are abused in violation of state and federal debt collection laws.
NCO is a money-mill, gobbling up competitors, buying portfolio's of old debts for pennies and expanding globally. These money-beggars are making their bottom-line profits at the expense and abuse of consumers.
One wonders how many lawsuits are NOT being filed because consumers do not know their rights or that NCO CAN be held accountable for their illegal debt collection practices.
Apparently, NCO is not spending enough time and money to properly train their debt collectors in accordance with law, the FDCPA. Do they hire any derelict that may be in-between court and treatment dates simply to harass, abuse, and oppress consumers? There is no mention of drug testing at their web site, so I assume you can get hired on at NCO if one has bad habits and a need for fast-cash. This must be a 'dream-job' for anyone with a prison record, drug habit, or any con artist out to scam some fast money off an unsuspecting consumer. Are you aware of the personal consumer information these money beggars have access to? I shudder to think how much information is being illegally used at agencies such as NCO. You should be VERY nervous about the type of individuals who have this unprecedented and open access to ALL of your personal information.
It may be just a matter of time until collectors start calling with accents from country's like India, Pakistan and ....(ooohhh my gawd!!)
NCO's CEO, Michael J. (kinky) Barrist seems to be astonishing Wall Street(NASDAQ:NCPM)with his financial wizardry. He certainly appears to be pumping up the bottom line.(one lawsuit at a time?) In my experience, this type of greed and consumer abuse will catch up with NCO, just as it did with Commercial Financial Systems (CFS) and Outsourcing Solutions Inc (OSI). Both operations were out of control just prior to their filing for bankruptcy protection. CFS's top brass is facing federal criminal charges in highly anticipated court proceedings scheduled for later this year.
One sure method to stop NCO's consumer abuse is for well-informed consumers to use the law to their advantage. There are three things you can do to slow down the NCO collection process:
1) Within the first thirty days of receiving a written NCO collection notice, send a dispute notice, making demand for all documentation that substantiates their claim.
2) Use the FREE cease-comm letter on ANY NCO debt collector who threatens, intimidates, or abuses you.
3) Tape all debt collector calls (where legal) to use in future civil or criminal proceedings.
If you are receiving abuse from NCO, contact me for referral to a local consumer law professional in your area. NCO, with $800+million in revenues last year, has more money than a South American drug cartel, so use the law to make them pay when they violate the laws and your consumer rights.
Do not let NCO's under-trained, uneducated and FDCPA lacking debt-collectors make a paycheck at your expense.
Big agencies pay big salaries to their ego-driven brass. NCO should spend a lot more time training their collectors and dealing with consumer complaints, in this case BIGGER does NOT mean BETTER! (Except for Kinky and his top brass team of money beggars)
NEVER give a debt collector your banking or credit card information.
NEVER trust a debt collector; they will lie to cheat you out of your money.
NEVER do 'checks by phone' as debt collectors could empty your bank account with little or no accountability.
REMEMBER: Debt collectors have NO power and NO authority and should NEVER be trusted. They will lie and cheat you to get at your money.
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Anonymous on 10/02/2003:
Get a life. Grow up and stop acting like a child, if you want, open up your own website. This one is for complaints that are legit, not for the general things you may have heard.
Anonymous on 10/03/2003:
This isn't something I 'may have heard'...this was actually an article I found in the Wall Street Journal Archives.
Do your research before you go telling people to get a life. It really makes you look silly. You want a hug?
Anonymous on 10/06/2003:
It's hard to reply to Hard Facts - I understand.
Anonymous on 11/13/2003:
What Horrible Jerk says and posted is 100% true... here is another link to help those out there suffering from NCO. Some of the "tricks of the trade" used by NCO and companies the like are described here. http://www.ihatedebt.com/
Anonymous on 11/18/2003:
Thanks "JarCit" (Just a regular citizen) - Another site I've found very helpful is www.creditwrench.com. And for the record...I'm really not a horrible jerk...I just play one on the phone (when NCO calls)
steve.merson on 03/25/2004:
I have had it with NCO!!! Apparently I have not returned their calls with the precision they expect because they tracked me down and called me at work!! The thing about that is, I am a supply teacher and could have been teaching at any school, how they found me I do not know! Added to that, they called my parents in a different province, I'm 34 so come on!!! Unbelievable and totally unprofessional.
carneyv on 03/30/2004:
NCO has continually called me after I asked them to stop. They have resorted to threats that the police are coming for me and I am committing fraud for not paying. I just owe a debt. So what!
mzworkout on 03/31/2004:
This company is a joke and have customer service people that are horrible. They kept demanding I needed an account number to help me and then transfer me to someone else. I finally got a name & 1 800 number to help and the 800 number is a personal number. I called back to explain I needed another number and they said the number is correct and maybe they don't feel like answering the phone, call back another time.
Nick on 04/03/2004:
I recently accepted employment with this company. I am 3 weeks into the position and have decided to submit my letter of resignation. These tales of horror are no exaggeration. This is a particular shame because there are many truly good people that simply want a job there. However, the "Training" is non existent. I have never before worked in this trade. A lack of jobs along with a need to work somewhere compelled me to accept this offer. The instructions lasted about 4 hours. We were then placed alongside one of the working operators. (They had about 30 days on the job experience.) We listened for the balance of the day. The following morning we were handed a script and assigned a work station. As I continued to listen to the other operators around me, I was astounded at what was coming out of there mouths. It is absolutely abusive. The instruction to the works is to do whatever it take to get the money. In fact our office has a lottery of sorts to promote this activity. This month it is a 42 inch plasma screen TV. The employees appointed as manager, equally have no experience. On one occasion I called manager to my work station to address a customer complain. NCO had billed there account twice for the same transaction. This caused the customer to bounce other checks. They were asking for the over payment returned and that NCO cover the cost of the bounced check. The manager was completely at a loss as to how to deal with the problem.
I will work out a notice and leave this place. I agree with others who state "NEVER give any information to NCO" If you owe a bill continue to make payment to the original debtor. When they call your house, begin the conversation with the line, "This conversation will be recorded for later use in court, do you wish to continue this conversation?"
I hope to get someone BILL O'Riely to look into this company. He is always reliable for stirring up public awareness.
Poorly Treated on 04/08/2004:
I would like to know who to contact to sue NCO. They called me at work after being told many times that I would lose my job for personal phone calls, they stated that I never returned their call, but they had never left a message. How they got my work number is beyond me. I have been making monthly payments to them, and they continue to call me every other week asking if I mailed another payment yet. I have told them many times that I would mail a certain amount each month until the debt was paid off, and they continue to call even though they are receiving their payments. They have been threatening and rude. I am ready to do something to stop them from treating others this way.
ducatione on 05/01/2004:
These people call me with an automated message and I didn't know who they were or what they were calling about. The weird thing was the person there were telling me to call has the same name as a friend of mine, so I thought it was him calling me. What should I do? When I call the number, no one answers and I'm on hold forever.
lisha on 06/07/2004:
NCO Sucks!! I received my first call from them about 2 weeks ago. I did not even know I had a bill with the hospital they say I owe. I asked for a statement to be mailed to me and they mailed me a collection letter stating that they have verified my employment and that if I do not pay in full amount that they will take this out of my payroll account. I only wish I could pay this off. These people call me 3-4 times a day leaving me 2-3 messages and they hang up on my husband. I have been in collections before and I know by law they can not call this many times. Not only that but they are calling on Sunday. This place needs to be shut down. I have planned on sending them a payment however, I don't want them to have my checking account as they are likely to do a check by phone and bounce everything I have. Again I say This Place Needs to be PUT OUT OF BUSINESS!!
floridagirl on 08/16/2004:
I have recently received a call from NCO financial stating that my PayPal account went to collections with them. Considering that I hadn't received any type of letter or anything this call was very upsetting. I called PayPal and established that the debit was real, and decided instead of having the debt go on my credit report, I would post date checks to NCO. As I'm reading these postings, I am nervous about my checks. Can NCO send my debt to my credit report if I cancel my post dated check with them? Any advice would be appreciated.
lokie on 03/15/2005:
I had a few calls from NCO, the last of which ended with a most ignorant, uneducated person from NCO calling me a coxxxxxker,repeating my address to me, threatening to come to my home see what I had to say face to face.I, being the well brought of man I am, invited him. I haven't heard from them again, but I would gladly accept any advice on how to proceed with getting them off my credit report and also on how to find out about legal action.This call was only one of many, they even called my parents home and ignored being told I didn't live there. Any advice appreciated.
stopNCO on 03/20/2005:
There are a couple of attorneys who can help!
Give them a way to contact you and please tell them your story.
They stopped NCO very quickly for me. They can probably help you too.
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Could use some advice on what do do about debt with NCO
Posted by
To start off, back in December of 2008 I was laid off from my job. I immediately had to cancel my cell phone service, because I could no longer afford it. I was subject to an early termination for each of the two phone's that were on my account. I had a bill of approx 520$ that I needed to pay. I did not receive my unemployment compensation till the middle of February so I did not pay for those two months. I stopped receiving my bill and when I called the cell phone company they informed me that my debt had been sold to a collection agency. I assumed that I could not pay my bill through the cell phone company anymore and that's how they portrayed it also. I did not receive nor did I hear anything from any collection agency until this past Friday when they called my husband's phone saying that they were NCO financial trying to contact me about an important matter. They told my husband that I had listed him as a contact ( not true ). He gave them my information then called me to tell me that I needed to call a number and ext with a code that he also gave me. I called and looked up the company while I was waiting to speak to a representative When I found out that it was a collection agency I knew it had to be about the cell phone bill. After being on hold for over half an hour, I left a voicemail with my name and number for them to call me. They did not call me back, but instead called my husband again on Saturday. I called them and got ahold of a representative that same day. The first woman I spoke to was polite and asked me some questions ( which I wish I had not answered now but I legitimately thought that it was just a means to get the debt cleared up ), among them where my husband worked and who our checking account was through ( I am so angry that I gave out that info! I feel like such a sucker ). She then told me that my debt was over 800$ and I told her that I disagreed with that amount and that I need something in the mail stating proof that I owe that amount before I pay them anything. I also told her that due to my unemployment I would not be able to pay the debt in full, but could make monthy payments of at the very least 200$. She asked if I would hold ( had no idea she was transferring the call to a manager ). A man who said he was a manager comes on the line and demands to know my plan to pay off my debt. I told him that my plan was to get the paperwork in the mail that stated proof of what I owe and then to make the payments that I could make till it was paid off. He then went on to say " so I'm going to read between the lines and guess that what your saying is that you'll pay it when you have the money" and I was so taken aback at his rudeness that I was kind of flustered after that and said no that's not what I said at all. Then he said "well why can't you put this debt onto your credit card that you have through your bank" and I said that the card is actually primarily my husband's and he won't allow me to do that. The manager then said in a tone of disbelief "your husband and you do your finances separately" and I told them that in this matter of a debt that was mine, yes. He then went on to basically say that he had heard this excuse a million times and that all I am going to do is take one look at a paper statement and decide not to pay then screen my calls and that they would never hear from me again. He told me that I could write a check to the cell phone company, that he couldn't care less what I did, and that he was referring my care for "further action". He then told me to have a nice day and hung up on me.
I was really upset after this phone call, I just want to get this debt cleared up and never be in this situation again. I just don't feel like I can get anywhere with this company. I don't even feel safe giving any money to them now.
If anyone could give me any advice as to what to do now I would really appreciate it. I was under the impression that I could not go back to cell phone company to pay them, but he made it sound like I could.
Thanks to anyone in advance for any advice or knowledge shared.
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madconsumer on 11/01/2009:
great review.
very helpful.
warddw1526 on 11/02/2009:
BAsed on the timeline you gave, I am not sure that you can make payments to the cell company. The debt would have charged off when it went past 180 days past due, and NCO may have purchased it, or they could be the recovery department for the phone company.
As for how they found your husband's info, as someone who used to work for NCO, I had use of a program called Accurint. I am assuming that you and your husband live together. Accurint would give show the shared address, do a public records search, and find your husband's phone#.
When the agent got her supervisor to come on the line, this was probably a more seasoned agent who might be more "demanding" than the first agent, hoping to get the payment.
At this point, you could try calling the phone company as if NCO is collecting for them, they may allow payments directly through them. If they won't, callback NCO and offer $200/month. Seems reasonable that at the amount mentioned, you would have it paid off in 4 months so.
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Defaulted Student Loans - Rehabilitation
Posted by
NCO is now defined by my handle ... NewCrimeOutfit.
Just as my wife and I were first meeting, certain personal things occurred that led to the unfortunate delinquency and subsequently default of her student loans. As things began to settle down, we both began trying to get the loans back into active/current status, only to get the runaround from the original lender and guarantor leading to a world of acronyms for programs and worse: collection agencies such as DCS and NCO.
That was 7 years ago and I am almost ready to give up on trying to find any reasonable solution for repayment of these defaulted student loans.
After opening communications again with Great Lakes Higher Education Guaranty Corporation, I find myself being forced by GLHEC back into the choking hands of NCO Financial (a/k/a group, services, etc.)
For the second time now they have done on AWG on my wife for her as yet unfinished degree. She is in a debtors' prison, unable to obtain her academic records to see how she might continue school and cannot even enroll because of the huge black ball of shame attached to a noose around our necks.
Fortunately, my wife's employer has volunteered to HOLD the AWG payment checks at corporate office until a reasonable repayment agreement (that we have requested) is offered to us.
I openly asked reps of both GLHEC and NCO the other day if it is the God's honest truth that the ONLY way to get into the "Balance Sensitive Loan Rehabiliation Program" is through NCO. They both affirmed "YES".
That doesn't ring true to me.
WHY is the government still directly or indirectly contracting with this outfit already fined $1.5-million by the FTC and under scrutiny of many State Attorneys General?
How many of you here know of NCO being "kin" to OSI and offspring of SST -- all previously placed in the safety net of none other than JPMorgan Chase?!
I am communicating with attornies to see if I have been lied to by GLHEC and NCO ... and I will post here if there is any genuine path for people who want to get back on track under the Federal Loan Rehabilitation Program.
I am also contacting various elected officials, including a State Rep, U.S. Rep, U.S. Senator and especially Attorney General of Florida, Bill McCollum.
If there are other student loan defaulted borrowers from Florida that see this, please post comments below. We need to make sure that this company is dealt with by an AG that does NOT tolerate abusive, deceptive or misleading practices by any business, especially collection agencies and more -- one outside of this State!
Here is the Florida AG website: http://myfloridalegal.com/
Select "Consumer Protection" from the left side menu and then click on "File A Complaint"
Keep a look out for more info here soon.
All consumer input welcome!
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Anonymous on 12/11/2009:
You CAN do a William D Ford on your own (KA Balance sensitive...) Collection agencies hate when you do it on your own because they do not get credit for it. Start here:
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I Need Advice On How To Handle Shady Company . . .
Posted by
Jenn in NC
Here's what happened . . .
I had a credit card account that was closed in 11/2004 and sold to NCO in 3/2005. NCO had contacted me soon afterwards, and I spent a month attempting to negotiate a settlement with NCO. On 4/30/05, I paid $1100 in order to settle the account which had a $1900 balance at the time. I now realize that I made a huge mistake by giving them my account information and paying over the phone. I also never received a letter from NCO stating that the account was settled.
I didn't hear from NCO for over 3 years, until they sent a letter to *my parents' address* in 11/2008. (I called the phone number on the letter and got transferred to several people. Each person told me that they had no information on this account or that I needed to call Citibank.) I made another mistake of assuming that this letter was a bogus letter.
I recently went to a bank on 4/14/09 and found out that this isn't bogus. According to my credit report, I now owe about $2700 to NCO!
I spent about 5 hours on the phone yesterday, trying to figure out what is going on. NCO admits to receiving an $1100 payment from me, and I have requested my past statements from my bank as proof of payment. However, NCO will not acknowledge my $1100 as settlement. They are asking for me to provide things that don't exist -- a receipt/letter documenting the settlement (which I never received) & a copy of the front and back of a check that I never wrote (because I paid using account numbers over the phone).
What do you suggest I do . . . ?
1. Should I continue to dispute this balance with NCO directly? I can send a letter summarizing everything that has happened and requesting that NCO acknowledge my 4/30/05 $1100 payment as settlement. I can also let them know that I will go to the State Attorney General.
2. Should I dispute the current $2700 balance on my credit report with the credit reporting companies directly? I have been told that the balance might be removed from my credit report early, because NCO isn't acknowledging my $1100 payment as settlement.
3. Should I attempt to settle the balance AGAIN with NCO in order to get rid of the balance and save time & headache? (This is assuming that I can get NCO to provide everything needed in writing.)
4. Is there another better option?
Am I screwed until the balance is removed from my credit report in 2011? Will NCO still be able to take any assets from me after 2011?
NCO Financial is the worst company that I've ever dealt with! Of course, I wish I had never gotten into this situation to begin with. I don't know what the best thing to do is now . . .
*** CORRECTION: The $1100 amount above is incorrect. The number was given to me by NCO staff during my numerous phone calls with them on 4/15/09. (The dates are correct however.) I received a copy of my April 2005 bank statement today (4/17/09), as well as copies of two checks made out for $2000 and $1400 in 4/2005. So I now have proof of payment! I have asked NCO to fax me my account history, showing original balance, payment history, and current balance due. I am waiting for a response . . .
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Anonymous on 04/16/2009:
Much of what you are asking entails legal advice. Others may want to venture onto that limb, not me. You need a real debt counselor to go over the pros and cons of each course of action. My sympathies. You're dealing with an industry who's real business is growing small, delinquent debts into a much larger ones...and is far less interested in collecting the amount due to the business that hired them.
BokiBean on 04/16/2009:
This is bad in that you didn't get their settlement offer on paper (of course, you already know this).
First thing I would do would be to contest it through the credit reporting agency to make them prove that you actually owe it.
I'm like Doc, others here can offer far better advice than myself, but I would definitely get the wheels in motion by contesting it through the credit report. Its worth a shot.
DebtorBasher on 04/16/2009:
You said, "I spent a month attempting to negotiate a settlement with NCO. On 4/30/05, I paid $1100 in order to settle the account which had a $1900 balance at the time"....
You used the word, "Attempting"..but did THEY AGREE to take it as a settlement? Or did you just tell them you were going to settle it? If they didn't agree to it, then it was not a settlement arrangement. A settlement has to be agreed on by both parties. Maybe it's just the way you worded your complaint, but in your words it does not show an agreement.
If you're looking for a way to prove your payment, even when it was done over the phone by check, you would have had to give them a check number from your checkbook then void that check out. It should appear on your bank statement, and there should have been a check made through them with that check number and your checking account info to be cashed through your bank and with that, you should be able to get a copy of the front and back. If you made payment by a debit card, it would also be on your statement.
Jenn in NC on 04/16/2009:
DB . . . Thanks for clarifying this. A settlement was definitely discussed and was the purpose of the negotiations. After many phone calls, both parties finally agreed on a $1100 settlement amount. However, I do admit that this was several years ago, and I had less knowledge about the loopholes that exist . . . (Otherwise, I would have paid with a money order and insisted on a receiving a settlement letter before paying.) I was naive enough to think that a verbal agreement and payment would be enough . . .
I requested my past bank statements from my bank yesterday and haven't received them yet. I assumed that I would have documentation of the date & amount of payment, but I didn't know that the bank would have created a check and made copies of both sides. Thanks for pointing this out!
Jenn in NC on 04/16/2009:
I forgot to add that the loan officer at my bank thought that it was odd that NCO Financial hadn't reported the balance since 4/2008 . . .
madconsumer on 04/16/2009:
nco will and would never put anything in writting. if they did, courts could hold them to it. bad part here is, they did not send you the pay off statement, nor receipt of payment on purpose. see, because now they can try to collect from you again.
best thing for you is to prove they received your payment, and seek legal advise. if at all possible, contact the state attorney general and look into filing a complaint.
DebtorBasher on 04/16/2009:
I'm afraid they would not accept a copy of just a bank statement. That will only show the amount of the check, but not who it was made out to or who cashed it. No company accepts that as a proof of payment. But once you get that statement, take notice to the date and the check number...THEN you can request a copy of the check...but being that it was from 2005, the bank may not be able to go back that far for the copy...but try what you can.
Madconsumer...what you say is not completely true. Whether or not NCO will send anything in writing, depends on that one particular NCO. I know for a fact that the NCO I worked at, we always sent the settlement offers in writing. If the customer wanted it before making the payment over the phone, we would put them on hold and have it faxed directly to them. People seem to forget that having agreeements in writing with NCO is not only for the debtor, but for NCO as well. We would have proof that the debtor agreed to pay as agreed and if they don't, NCO can void that offer and go for the full payment. This means if the debtor does not pay by the agreed date on settlements that are sometimes split into two or three payments.
Jenn in NC on 04/17/2009:
I'd like to make a correction to my above post: The $1100 amount above is incorrect. The number was given to me by NCO staff during my numerous phone calls with them on 4/15/09. (The dates are correct however.)
Also, I've made some progress today. I received a copy of my April 2005 bank statement, as well as copies of two checks made out for $2000 and $1400 in 4/2005. So I now have proof of payment! I have asked NCO to fax me my account history, showing original balance, payment history, and current balance due. I am waiting for a response . . .
DebtorBasher on 04/17/2009:
That's great that your bank was able to provide that info from 2005! Please keep us infomed. If you need to request a "Debt Validation" you can go to my blog and click on the link there. On that link, you will find a form letter for a Debt Validation and you just fill it out with your info. NCO will then HAVE to send it to you within 30 days of receiving your request...so, be sure to send it certified with return receipt.
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False Debt Collection from HughesNet Internet Services
Posted by
Catherine Todd
OXFORD, NORTH CAROLINA -- NCO FINANCIAL SYSTEMS attempted a Fraudulent Debt Collection "from HughesNet Internet Services" 1.11.07 - UNTRUE. No past due notices or payments in arrears!
This company called my husband at work and said that our HughesNet satellite internet service was "two months delinquent (total: $200.00)," and that if we did not "pay either a $300.00 partial payment to terminate the 15 month agreement" or "pay in full $900.00 to have the service reinstated in 5-7 days," we would be disconnected immediately. They insisted that a credit card payment over the phone was the only way to resolve this problem, and it had to be done immediately.
None of this made any sense, as I had not received any past due notices or email notices from HughesNet.com. When I said this, they said "We don't agree with HughesNet policies regarding overdue accounts, but that is how they handle delinquencies. And you are delinquent and scheduled for disconnect immediately."
When I continued to question them, they said the account was two months past due, at $100.00 per month, would only mean that I owed $200.00, if in fact it was past due (which it was not). As I had been out of the country for the past four months AND had changed my credit card # of one of my cards, I thought this must be the problem and finally gave them my credit card #. Immediately afterwards, I was transferred to the "supervisor" who got my card code # and when he said I was to call HughesNet in 5 to 7 days to have my service turned back on, a week later, I said wait a minute. Why is the service being disconnected for a week if I am paying half of the entire year's contract in advance?
When I refused to authorize the charge, they put the $900.00 through anyway after stating that they wouldn't! I contacted Capital One Fraud Dept. who made a three way call to them, including me, and they said it would take "7-10- days to issue a refund." This is also not true.
The following day I was able to reach HughesNet who said I was NOT delinquent, bills were being paid by my credit card account, and that they did not do business by calling people at work on the phone.
Capital One has now canceled my card since the number has been "stolen," as NCO also had the three digit code on the back. I will be issued a new card expedited, so my own stupidity cost me $16.00. I can't believe that I finally got scammed! I had been out of the country, could not find any account information while I was being threatened with "immediate disconnect" and caved in, since the girl on the other end kept saying "she didn't agree with HughesNet's policies, but even if I contacted them, I would just be referred back to her." I could not get through to HughesNet at the first three numbers I found on the internet, did not have a reply to an email and had not received any contract information from them, so I ultimately believed the lies I was being told. Luckily I contacted my credit card company immediately after and found that NCO had in fact run the $900.00 charge through immediately, and then I was able to contact HughesNet at 866-347-3292, and then report NCO. What a mess!
I have seen that this company has scammed many, many people who have reported this all over the internet. They are blaming HughesNet, as I was, until I got in touch directly with HughesNet. I hope this terrible company can be put out of business, but I have found complaints lodged against NCO Financial Systems 1-800-688-3370 filed as far back as 2003. I am sure there are even earlier accounts. NCO has the nerve to not even change their phone number! Luckily I don't believe that these criminals will profit from their lies. I hope this is the straw that breaks this devil's back!
I have reported NCO Financial Systems (billed as "NCO FACS R. Meadows") to Capital One, Hughes Net and on various locations on the internet. I should report this to our Attorney General as well. What a bunch of crooks!
Sincerely, C. Todd, Oxford NC
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Catherine Todd on 01/12/2007:
Note: When I asked them "how could the bill be in delinquent, since the bill was paid automatically by credit card, and I hadn't received anything in the email or by email" they said "if I had recently changed a credit card number that could have been what happened." Then they said "it was too bad, since they didn't agree with HughesNet policies, but they had to carry them out." Very sympathetic and compassionate, and "trying to help." The "only solution was to give them my credit card number," and I did!
They had all the answers ready, but couldn't send me anything by email or postal service! Things were getting stranger and stranger.
What tipped me off at the end of the conversation was that after I initially agreed to pay the $900.00 (!!) fee, they said I would continue to be billed $130.00 per month (the normal fee was $100.00) and they said I had to call HughesNet in 5-7 days to have my service reconnected. In other ways, I was paying MORE money per month AND an EXTRA $900.00 for nothing, and they were still going to disconnect my service!
When I heard this, I said "what a minute, I am not authorizing this payment and I will contact HughesNet first." The "supervisor" got angry, was very rude and slammed down the phone. I immediately contacted my credit card company and saw that NCO had already put the charge through. One thing led to another, and I finally got scammed. Let this be a warning to all!
Anonymous on 01/12/2007:
Never, never, never, never (can't say it enough times) give out a credit card number to anyone who has called you. NCO or whomever could have charged your card to the hilt. Then you have to spend the rest of your life trying to fix it. You fell to the pressure of a voice on the phone, someone you don't even know. NCO trains their people extremely well. Even if you might have caller id the name and number can be faked. You could have simply hung up and called HughesNet.
Did you get the $900 credited back?
tnchuck100 on 01/12/2007:
PB, VERY good advice. Let me help - NEVER, NEVER, NEVER give out a credit card number to anyone who has called you.
Anonymous on 01/12/2007:
We can never use the word never too much :-)
DebtorBasher on 01/12/2007:
I know it's easy for people to say "I would have done this, I would have said that"..but when it's you on the phone and the person on the other end talks to you in a way that you feel threatened, it isn't always easy to see what is the obvious...For one, NCO or any other collection agency wouldn't have anything to do with connecting or disconnecting anyone's service, they would have nothing to do with connection fees etc...a collection agency can only collect on past due amount. I'm glad you called and reported this to your credit card company right away though, it's was probably the only you could have done at that point. Did this call come from overseas by any chance? What they did was wrong, no matter where the call came from, but I'm just curious...please keep us updated on the outcome...thanks.
tander on 01/12/2007:
I'm curious too, to where this call came from. Was NCO on your caller ID or did they just tell you they were NCO?
Anonymous on 01/13/2007:
PB, VERY good advice. Let me help - NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER give out a credit card number to anyone who has called you.
Anonymous on 01/13/2007:
tnchuck100 on 01/13/2007:
Anonymous on 01/13/2007:
And NEVER!
DebtorBasher on 01/13/2007:
Not even once? Even when no one is looking?
Anonymous on 01/13/2007:
Sounds like you were a victim of a phishing scam. Never, never, never give info like that out to someone who has called you, or emailed you. Hope you get this straightened out. Let us know how you make out!
tander on 01/14/2007:
Anonymous on 01/14/2007:
What I would do is cancel that credit card immediately to avoid any other charges like this. Now that they have it, they might make other charges.
Catherine Todd on 01/14/2007:
Thanks to everyone for your comments.
I did cancel the card immediately and refused the charge. CapitalOne Fraud Dept is also investigating this company. I just hope I didn't give those fake "debt collectors" my social security number (can't remember). I wasn't behind at all once I notified HughesNet what had happened, they said they would never call someone at work and always put everything in writing to begin with. So hopefully they are looking into this, too.
How did they catch me? Very simple: When I said "this isn't possible, my bill is paid automatically by credit card" they said "have you recently changed your credit card number? That's how it could have been sent to us for collection and disconnect." They had an answer and were so sympathetic over the phone, trying to "help me out."
I had been out of the country for four months, was swamped with bills and paperwork when I got back, and had changed one of my credit cards that was eaten in an ATM overseas. I use the internet for my work and couldn't let it get disconnected for up to a week, and all those factors together made me, finally, a target.
I think these kinds of criminals have someone who works at a big company and has access to a list, and they find a certain criteria (such as me, above) which they used to go phishing. If only 1 out of 100 or even 1,000 bite, it's fine, as they are $300.00 or $900.00 richer by that one phone call. Incredible!
I couldn't agree to NEVER give out my credit card over the phone, as suggested by some comments above, as I have done this a number of times with companies that I do business with and pay bills with, especially since I am out of town quite a bit.
That's the rub, and that's how these companies make out. But what I can do is ALWAYS verify with the company itself, even if someone says I am "scheduled for immediate disconnect." That's how they got me.
I had said I was going to contact HughesNet.com directly first and they said, "Alright, but you will just be referred back to us and in the meantime your service will be disconnected." Without internet service, I couldn't even try to look up my HughesNet phone #, the bill, or find which credit card I had been paying it with (it's all stored online now) so they had me over a barrell, I thought.
Luckily I changed my mind at the last moment, when I was referred to a "supervisor for final authorization." He slipped up and said I would be disconnected and had to "call HughesNet in 5 to 7 days to have my service restored." I said I was not authorizing the charge. That made no sense, I said so, and he got very angry and slammed down the phone. That is what tipped me off, thank God. Turns out they ran the charge through anyway!
That got my credit card company fraud division very interested, although the credit card company and I accepted the first story about it taking "7 to 10 days for a credit to be issued." After that call, I contacted HughesNet and found out my service was still on, bills paid, no disconnect, so I called back and cancelled the charge and the card. A lot of time spent but hopefully no damage done.
After successfully avoiding scam after scam for many years, I finally ALMOST got hooked.
I don't think this lesson will cost me anything at this point, but it just goes to show how easy it is to get scammed and the need to always get real verification before allowing charges on a credit card. The internet is full of this particular HughesNet internet scam, and people are blaming HughesNet (as I initially did) because they don't realize that it is another company. The only way I found out it was "NCO" debt collectors is I called back the number they had left on the message and then did an internet search for that phone number and their name popped up. I found complaints about this company going back to 2003, and there's probably a lot more even before then.
I just hope this complaint websites can get forwarded to the Attorney Generals in every state to put a stop to this type of white collar crime. It's almost worse than being mugged on the street. This happens in our own homes!
Thanks again for your comments, and thanks most of all for websites like this one where we can find out what is really going on!
tnchuck100 on 01/15/2007:
Catherine, I don't think anyone meant to imply to never give out your credit card number on the phone. The intended advice was only give it out on a call YOU make. Never to someone that calls you.
Mad Eye Moody on 01/17/2007:
Now...in order for this site to bill you for this advice, we're going to need your credit card number...
DebtorBasher on 01/22/2007:
MADDY! Go to your room!
Big Mom on 12/23/2007:
Sorry to hear about your story but it was very helpful. I guess NCO Financial Systems Inc is now sending letters and I received one of these letters. I couldn't sleep last night thinking about how and why I owed these people $15,373.35 – I don't owe anyone!!!! I tried calling the number several time and only got a message saying the voicemail box was full or all circuits were busy because of high volume calls. So, this morning I jumped onto the internet and was surprised to see all the complaints online. I notice some people have been targeted through their AOL account and some have been called. Now I have received a very official looking letter with an envelop to send back with my payment of $15,373.35. They also have a website (www.ncofinancial.com) that doesn't even work. The letter had a registration code and when I submitted it on their site it said the code was invalid. Well, I guess these are my two cents, hope this helps someone else who can't sleep because of it.
Big Mom
Jens on the warpath on 06/02/2009:
NCO needs to be shut down once and for all. They are harassing me with 20-30 calls a day on a business wireless claiming I owe money on a Bank of America account. Not recognizing the account, I called Bank of America back and they confirmed not only do they have no account in my name that is past due, but nothing for the dollar amount left on the voice mail.
BTW folks, the illegal practice NCO uses of pre-recorded calls giving your voice mail the account number and dollar amount is an FDCPA violation. Waiting for the complaints to come back from the FTC.
I called NCO and they phished for info. I told them to remove my number from their call list and gave them the number they were calling. They pished for my social, they demanded my bank account numbers with Bank of America. They demanded credit card numbers, where I worked, they didn't even have my mailing address or social in their files and they were artfully phishing.
Bottom line, whatever they are doing, Bank of America said NCO does not have ANY affiliation with them and does not represent them in ANY capacity.
All the 20-30 calls daily from their number are hang up calls. Unfortunately the FCC refuses to take action for telecommunications violations. Hopefully the Attorney General in PA as well as my State will take action. The FTC sent a list of my rights - no help getting the calls to stop.
numero uno on 12/14/2011:
actually to all you "want to-be" scammed debtors out there hoping to make a quick buck off a made up fdcpa violation while your lawyer is the one really scamming you ... the company is still proudly up and running and bigger and stronger than ever. Sadly to inform you but they are affiliated with all aforementioned companies.
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While you're in collections with NCO or ANY Debt Collection Agency
Posted by
Alright, I've worked for NCO for a while now and I'm come to notice that in online forums and other places people complain ALL the time about the debt calls. Since I know how NCO works, I'm going to make it easier on all of you on how to either resolve your debt or stop being "harassed" with phone calls.
#1. Learn the FDCPA.
For those of you that know it, go on to the next section. For those of you that don't read it. It stands for the Fair Debt Collection Practice Act. It's the laws that surround collection activity. If you know the laws about it, you can take control over the call. When a debtor brings up the phrase "FDCPA" it makes my skin crawl, because I don't want to get sued, and I don't want to lose my job so it makes me very edgy, and I'm a VERY confident person. By knowing the laws you can use it to your advantage to either stopping the calls or getting a 'case' against said Debt Group.
#2 Demand cease calls and all communication be done through mail..
This will completely stop the calls because it's an FDCPA violation if you request us to stop and follow the procedures of said debt agency to have them stopped, you'll get no more calls.
If you hang up before the debt collector says his/her Mini-Miranda, monitoring/recording disclosure, you WILL get called back. Debt collectors can call the CUSTOMER once per day IF they speak with the customer and REVEAL the information on the account. Hanging up means you don't know what it's about, you'll get called back later.
These companies WILL NOT help you. They only pay your minimum payments and will not help get you out of collections, most of these companies say they are non-profit but how do the people that work there get money? They take yours, bundle up a bunch of cash, and then wait until your account can be settled, settle the account for LESS, and keep the rest of your money while your CBR (credit bureau report) is now affected with negative feedback. If you can pay them, you can pay your bill which leads to the final part.
#5 Pay your bill.
Seriously, this is the easiest way to get out of collections. Just pay your damn bill and you won't have to worry about the calls. I know you're going to be out some money, but tough sh it. You agreed to a service, you didn't oblige to the contract/conditions that YOU ARE aware of, be responsible about it.
That's it. If you do any of those steps you can get yourself either out of collections or stop the annoying calls. As collectors we have _THE RIGHT_ to call you, as well there are state laws that do override the FDCPA so learn your state laws. As of 2 days ago, North Carolina can now be called by ANY country while before it was just inside the U.S. Enjoy.
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DebtorBasher on 09/01/2005:
#3 and #4 ...Not completely true.
Mad Eye Moody on 09/01/2005:
Yeah...no shzt. Take it away my beautiful friend - he's all yours.
ejack053824 on 09/01/2005:
Eat shyt and die RENDO for #5!
Slimjim on 09/01/2005:
Using a debt settlement service as you describe, is not consolidating anything and shouldnât be termed âdebt consolidationâ- unlike a single loan that pays off multiple debts. Even credit counseling, which you kind of crossed-referenced, uses that term incorrectly as the debts still stay multiple and outstanding, with only the monthly payment actually consolidated into one.
Rendo on 09/01/2005:
DebtorBasher, #3 _IS_ true. If a person hangs up on me before I discuss the entire account information, they're getting called back later that day if the dialer recycles back to them.
As for #4, SOME do work, most don't. In all honesty, I don't care if you want to go through it, but I know from experience they're unreliable.
DebtorBasher on 09/01/2005:
No matter how many times you post it...you're still wrong...It would be too easy for me to explain why...so, maybe you should go back to your so called NCO trainer and get trained over again because if this is what you're doing,then you've been doing it all wrong...if your trainer tells you that what you are saying is right...then your NCO needs to hire someone who knows what they are talking about.
DebtorBasher on 09/01/2005:
Actually...#5 isn't completely true either...people still get called after their bills are paid...and for all different reasons. You're a collector..you know the reasons.
EJ: you know you loved #5, you live to hear that!
Anonymous on 09/01/2005:
#6 NCO collectors for the most part are trying to get you to pay an unsubstantiated claim. Ask yourself, "Have I ever entered into a contractual agreement with NCO" or "Has NCO provided me with competent evidence that they have a legal claim to the debt they are trying to collect" or "Has NCO provided me with any agreements or contracts and the terms and conditions of those agreements they are claim exists that bind NCO and myself into a legally enforceable agreement"
If you answer no to any of those questions then like I said NCO's claim is baseless. I couldn't imagine paying somebody or company that I've never heard of a nickel until they absolutely proven they are entitled to it. No competent business would pay somebody based solely on an oral claim from a stranger on the phone nor would NCO itself then I must ask the rationale question; why would you?
Rendo on 09/01/2005:
If it's far too easy DebtorBasher, why not take that extra few moments to enlighten me? Or is it because you like to try to make rebuttals to peoples points but don't have concrete proof to back up your rebuttal? How about you back up your 'opinion', because that's all it is with some proof. Because I know how to do my job, and you telling me I don't makes me laugh. Show me some FDCPA that says I cannot do what I do and maybe I'll consider not doing it again. Moron.
Anonymous on 09/02/2005:
How do you substantiate your claim in #3. There is nothing in the FDCPA or any FTC issued opinion that I can find that mentions anything about "hang up before the debt collector says his/her Mini-Miranda, monitoring/recording disclosure". I'd be really interested in the basis of your assertion.
ejack053824 on 09/02/2005:
Basher...Rendo is an arrogant fckhead I see. Put this troll in his place. Oh Rendo please do call my house! I guarantee you won't call again.
DebtorBasher on 09/02/2005:
I will be more than happy to correct you...I mean, educate you. But first, I want you to go and have a talk with your NCO trainer and see what he/she has to say about your "advice". If your trainer agrees with you, direct him/her to this posting and I will educate the both of you and maybe it will improve his/her training for future NCO collectors.
Rendo on 09/02/2005:
As I said, you like to beat around the bush and won't support your claim. I will support mine though. There is nothing in the FDCPA that says I cannot call if they hang up before information is revealed, so I take that as an "abrupt hang up" or the call got "disconnected" ;). Now, how about you stop avoiding the question, or you can which further makes my point.
Mad Eye Moody on 09/02/2005:
Rendo - you made a mistake…and that's ok…everyone does. Your mistake was that you jumped out of your plane and into this forum thinking it was just another one of your dunning calls. Let me offer a parachute of sorts…a little bit of background. We've got enough experience on the law-side, the NCO side, and the (successful) pro-se litigant side, to know better than what you're trying to tell people. You're not doing your job correctly. Hey, you may be earning some good money; fabulous for you - congrats! However, I'd really like to spare you the educational beating that you're begging for. I also would like to spare you the humiliation of finding out you tried to give one of our readers your telephonic arm-twist via court summons and a subsequent pink slip. Believe me…if you get taken to court, NCO will defend to the death, or rather to the settlement, that no wrongdoing was done on their part - however, you'll be canned immediately in most valid cases Make no mistake champ, there's a hundred of you out there, and we've adopted the same attitude towards you 'bad apples' as you've adopted towards the 'deadbeats'. That being: we don't care what financial obligations YOU personally have to meet. We don't care how many mouths YOU have to feed, nor how badly YOU need your CBR to be accurate. We'll take it right out of your pocket, and right out of the mouth of your children, the same way you (as you profess you have the right to) take it out of the pockets of those YOU attempt to get payment from. You have no rights until you prove them. That's the truth of the world…not just the FDCPA/FCRA - just as Stew so perfectly summarized for YOUR benefit - if you can't prove that a contractual obligation exists between NCO and the person you're calling, you're running on empty. You're f(*&$ing excused.
Mad Eye Moody on 09/02/2005:
Damn Rookie.
DebtorBasher on 09/02/2005:
OK..here is a clue...does your copy of the FDCPA state..."Includes but not limited to..."? I'll let you take it from there...and, I'm still waiting for the response you get from your trainer.
DebtorBasher on 09/02/2005:
Maddy...you're getting so grumpy in your old age.
DebtorBasher on 09/02/2005:
Maddy: It may not be that Rendo has made a mistake...but if the trainer is teaching that this is proper procedure, it is the trainer's fault. It's just like, if a parent doesn't potty train their kid (EJack would be a good example here) until they are 8 years old, then it isn't the kids fault that he shyts his pants at 8...he just wasn't' taught differently. How was that for an example? Are you proud of me? Do I get another star for this advice??????
Mad Eye Moody on 09/02/2005:
LOL! Nice analogy. Ejack - she teases you because she loves you.
ejack053824 on 09/02/2005:
Damn Basher...that was pretty good! I applaude you there! lol!! Now....get over here and wipe my ass..I just sharted!
DebtorBasher on 09/02/2005:
EJ and DB? Who would have thunked it?
DebtorBasher on 09/04/2005:
I refuse to marry a man that can not control his bodily functions...it won't give us anything to look forward to in our old age.
ejack053824 on 09/06/2005:
Well more room outside then there is inside. So Basher....you don't fart? LOL
DebtorBasher on 09/07/2005:
NEVER! Not even in my sleep...and I NEVER pick my nose either! I was raised better.
Anonymous on 09/16/2005:
I like #5.
Mad Eye Moody on 09/19/2005:
I'll bet you do!
DebtorBasher on 09/19/2005:
You just lost your bet, Mister!
Tigron on 09/22/2005:
I understand that the FDCPA is necessary to avoid bully style collections, but I feel that some of the state legislations give too much power to the consumer to not pay back their debts. The whole 'cease and desist' rule you have in place I think is absurd. I received one cease and desist and all I did was leave 2 phone messages, I did not even speak to the debtor!
Mad Eye Moody on 09/23/2005:
Then sell the account, or sue them (if you have all the info you need to be sure they're the debtor that owes the money) They've given you no other choice. We don't tell people to send a flat C&D here, unless they're 100% sure that it's not their debt. Otherwise, conditional C&D's are suggested (For POE, or communication by USPS only)
DebtorBasher on 09/23/2005:
Rendo: Have you talked with your trainer yet. I'd like to know what he/she had to say.
rabidsheika on 04/05/2006:
Actually, to be working for a collection agency, you have that wrong in a lot of places.
State laws do not override the FDCA, it states that clearly in the FDCA.
Just telling the collector to cease call and only contact you in writing does not work. You HAVE to call them in writing. I have a copy of the act and would be happy to list the exact places where these things are stated for anyone interested.
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Right.....How Did They Find This Out & Is It Legal?
Posted by
COLORADO -- Okay.....Long story short. A few years ago, my wife and I both lost our jobs, on the same day (we worked for the same company that went under with no notice) and could not pay our bills (we have 5 children, are on rent assistance/food stamps etc) and could no longer afford to pay a credit card bill. No one would work with us at the original creditor ($25/mo was not good enough after missing two payments and getting charged 2x$25 late fee and 2*$35 over limit - which the late fee put us over the limit)
Then comes NCO. Calls all the time. I stopped answering my phone it Caller ID says Unavailable or Blocked Number because it was always them. They know I have gotten their letters - how...are they spying on me, watching when I open my mail or listening in? Oh, and we changed our phone number to a completely different carrier, are unlisted and they have still magically found what it is. Scary, scary, scary -- especially since they did it in less than a month.
They will take $25 a month (after I told them I would willingly pay $20 a month but no one had ever accepted that arrangement yet, which was the monthly minimum on the account to begin with anyway). I say, "Okay, lets do it, where do I mail the payment." She says, "Oh, we have to take it out of your checking account." I say, "I don't have one." She says, "Well, I see here you have paid other bills you have with a checking account in your name." I say, "Really?" I am flabbergasted at this point. I tell her, okay, but that is a business checking account for a small computer repair shop I started after finishing school about a year ago. It is not enough to pay all our bills yet, but for not putting any money up front to start it it is getting my family out of debt and on track finally. Anyway....I say, "I am not the only signatory on that account, so I cannot authorize anything rigth now over the phone." Which my wife and I both are signatories, but I was not going to jeapordize my biz account with these fools on an auto pay. You know, take the $25 in month one, in month 2 and then month 3 take double what the original debt was. And not give it back. And then take another $25 in month 4 because the interest accrued the day after they took the payment out of my checking, but the day before it posted on their system, never mind you don't get a monthly statement as you do from any other normal creditor. Collection agencies should be required by law to send monthly statements of your account, if it is in their possession, whether you are actively paying them or not. They make enought money screwing everyone to pay for sending out the bills.
So she says, "Well, I am sorry then, I cannot accept payments other than the full settlement amount." I say, "Well, I am sorry then I do not have that much cash on me. In fact I have about $20 right now." She says, "Well, go ahead and make a payment and it will credit to your account, but I can't guarantee it will help, or that it will lower the balance. We will also call everyday and send letters too, even if you do start making payments."
I say, "Okay....." She asks, "When will you be sending your first payment?" I say, "Around the end of the month....or the first of the month in about 1 1/2 weeks". She says, "Okay, I put that in there."
So, why should I send a payment if it will not help the balance or stop the calls and I cannot get a written statement with the final agreed upon settlement amount? I am sending a letter to them to have them stop calling me and stop writing me, and I am contacting the original creditor, (which from other messages on here is better and has not actually authorized NCO as their collection agency in the first place).
Should I be afraid that they somehow know I have paid some of my other bills with my business checking account (I just write the check to the bill instead of writing myself a paycheck and then putting it in my personal account) and seem to think that they can have access to that, which is not wholly mine? Do they have my account number now? I bet they probably do. ID theft from a collection agency is a sad a pathetic day for America, but I feel it has arrived.
What grounds do I have at this point? I wish to resolve this issue, with someone who will work with me...would I have better luck with the original creditor? I have thought about a CCS (consumer credit service, counseling), debt reduction or similar alternatives (I still am trying to pay off some older debts that accumulated when I was unemployed and also from going back to school).
Should I just immediately seek legal counsel at this point? How do they know this information? How can they find out from other creditors that I have paid by check? Is that not illegal? What do they do, call up and ask them, "So Bob, how did customer X pay their bill last month?", Bob says, "Oh, they paid with a check."
Freaky.....too much power.....it is time to afraid.....
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LegalCollector on 03/24/2005:
Yes, its illegal, which is NCO's fortay. Its also a common skip-tracing tool.
ejack053824 on 03/24/2005:
Tell them to fckoff! Send them a money order if you really want to make a payment.
TXRoadTrip on 03/24/2005:
File Chapter 7 afterwards write your creditors that you where harassed and stalked so much by NCO you had no other choice.
TXRoadTrip on 03/24/2005:
Now live a happy life.
Anonymous on 03/24/2005:
NCO sure get's a lot of complaints and they seem to be a ruthless bunch yet they have a nice price to earnings ratio and are currently trading below book... I think I'm a shareholder to be.
DebtorBasher on 03/24/2005:
It's called successful skiptracing...but relax, you've got us all figured out!
TXRoadTrip on 03/25/2005:
Also add mental anguish in your letter. This should piss off the companies that hire NCO = they won't get anything else from you.
TXRoadTrip on 03/25/2005:
Also if you don't want them to call you - have the phone in some else's name. If they call the number have them file complaints with the fcc.gov.
keitha000 on 03/27/2005:
OK First off you are protected by the FDCPA Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. If you write to them (send it certified mail so you have proof) a Cease and Desist Order they have too. If they do not, then you have legal actions that you can apply to them. Now I have dealt with this company a couple of times and they are not stupid they know some of the laws but they make a lot of mistakes too. Now if you donât want to pay the bill then thatâs a whole other matter that I can send anyone more information on if they want. Ohh look also DO NOT, DO NOT PAY THEM OR ENLIST THE SERVICES OF ANY CREDIT REDUCTION OR CREDIT FIXING SERVICES. DO NOT!!!
If you do this they can legally deny any and all claims of your rights under the FDCPA.
This is a whole lot easier than you think. Here Iâll even give you a sample letter that I would send to them.
Cheat Everyone Collection Services
123 any st.
anywhere, LA 39450
March 25th 2005
Re: #123456789
To whom it may concern:
I request that you Cease and DESIST in your efforts to collect on this account. I am also disputing the validity of this account. I am covered under the FDCPA Fair Debt Collection Practices Act and I know my rights. I will not have you rape my rights under the law anymore. If you can send me proof that the account it mind you may only do so by mail (US Postal Services) and you are not to call anyone in reference to this account.
If you do not comply with these laws I will be forced to file a claim with the FTC Federal Trade Commission, and also file any and all legal actions afforded me by law.
Mr. Your Worst Nightmare
There is a lot more than you can do besides just this but this should get you started and maybe give you a few more good nights of sleep.
DebtorBasher on 03/27/2005:
Keith, can you please explain what a cease and disist letter is? No one on this site has ever heard of one before? It sounds interesting though. Your explanation is appreciated. We need to be educated here.
keitha000 on 03/28/2005:
OK Everyone I am only willing to write all of this down one time so please listen up and pay attention.
Pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA)
Head Sec. 1692c. Communication in connection with debt collection STATUTE (a) Communication with the consumer generally
( c ) Ceasing communication
If a consumer notifies a debt collector in writing that the consumer refuses to pay a debt or that the consumer wishes the debt collector to cease further communication with the consumer, the debt collector shall not communicate further with the consumer with respect to such debt.
That's the LAW people. All of this is in the FDCPA every right you have under it is there. The government is on your side not the collectors. You really want to know something crazy? What if I told you that for a national credit card company to issue credit cards to consumers out of their own state, IS ILLEGAL. Believe it or not but the law is there all you have to do is find and read your rights. Keith
DebtorBasher on 03/28/2005:
I still don't understand, Keith? What you wrote didn't even mention a "cease and desist Letter", it just has a lot of mumble jumble. Where exactly do I find "cease and desist" letters in the FDCPA thing?
keitha000 on 03/28/2005:
What the US code and several appellate
level courts and the Supreme Court had said about the lending of credit. And essentially
it is really quite simple is that, according to the US code, when you are talking about a
national bank, keep in mind this only applies to national banks, not local banks. But a
national bank is authorized in the US code is allowed to engage in certain activities.
National banks are creations of the federal government that date back a long time in history. Well over 100 years and the idea of a national bank is to have a national charter
and engage in banking activity on a larger scale than a local bank could do. And this
National bank concept has grown into monstrously huge banks that are spread out into all
states of the country as well as many other countries where they have active investment
activities going on. The first priority of a national bank is to protect people's money. And we'll come back to that first part in a minute. The second part, in order to protect people's money, that bank has to be able to make money to protect people's money and so the code describes the legitimate type of
money making activity that a bank can engage in, in order to make money with other
peoples money in order to accomplish their primary goal which is to protect people's
money. So with that said, the way the code is written. It's written in a giving authority
perspective, in other words, this is what you CAN do and anything that isn't stated in
here you CAN'T do, specifically. In addition to this, there is another aspect called
implied power. So we are talking express powers, things that are stated that you CAN
do, and things you are allowed to do by implication. For example, and what this implied
powers mean, in order to create a banking operation, it is kind of obvious and implied
that you will need a building. Even though owning buildings is not stated specifically as
an express power it arises by implication. So those are the essence of where banking
powers start with is this concept of express powers and implied powers. Now in
numerous times throughout history banks have attempted to engage in various activities
under the implied powers act and then rejected or then approved. One of these particular
areas is the lending of credit or the idea of becoming a guarantor or assurity for a third
party. SO the US supreme ct as well as numerous other supreme courts has stepped in
when the banks attempted to loan credit and rejected their ability to do so and stated
emphatically that they cannot engage in the lending of credit.
because they are allowed to say "loan money
for real estate transactions" it's doesn't' rise by implication to allow them to lend credit.
So it's not under the implied powers either.
And since they can't, how come I get 15 phone calls a week, 7 applications in the
mail every week. Why is that? Well, the codes never changed and the Supreme Court opinions have never changed either. But at the same time, banks are an extremely powerful lobby and they are big donors to political campaigns and they are always s looking to make money just like any corporation and they saw an opportunity dating back into the 60's to engage in this credit lending strategy and went out and did it and they were allowed to because congress just turned a blind eye to the enforcement of this law. What congress should have done is if they were going to allow the banks to engage in this activity they should have changed the law. And specifically stated in the code that national banks are allowed to do this, but the fact is, they didn't. And so, this sort of arose out of osmosis that banks
just began doing this in a matter of course. It became very popular and now it is that
congress and banks are in a catch 22 and that is that if they go back now and in fact
people say to me "well why didn't congress change the law" and then bingo, everything
is fixed. But the point is, if they change the law then they are admitting that what was
done previously was wrong and was done outside the law.
This concept isn't well known. I'm sure that if this was more widely known and
accepted that it might pressure them to do it.
Yeah and what's interesting is, not only is it not well known in the public,
obviously, part of this is, it's "heck I've got a credit card and I use it and I'm not
necessarily suggesting this to people who use the credit card with full awareness. But
rather it's for the people who get in trouble with credit and are being beat up by the banks
and being forced into bankruptcy. Let's talk about that for a second. I agree with you and I know that this is going to come to a shock to people. I take a very liberal view of the way that banks operate. Meaning, I am all for free enterprise, I am all for companies making a profit. I find that especially with big credit card tactics, it borders, in my professional opinion, on legal loan sharking. And the credit card companies tactics are so, it's almost like, here smoke this crack and you extend 300, 500 dollars to someone who may take a year to actually get that cash in their hand because things are so tight in their life that it's like giving a loaded gun to a child, they are eventually going to point it at themselves. If I'm paying my credit card bills, I'm in a different financial position, I also know someone who is not so familiar with this option who is continually extending credit card payments – making minimum payments which is basically giving him a second mortgage, a third mortgage and a fourth mortgage. My first job out of school, I won't name the bank, but it was one of the largest banks in NY, it wasn't at a branch but at the main office and I came to find that the number one department in terms of revenue were the credit card department and number two was their collections department on written off credit card debt. And well you know after we started thinking about that we found they had a
scenario where credit card debt would go from beginning, someone actually getting
issued a credit card, to if someone had fallen outside the payment schedule to collections
to selling the debt to a company and acquiring the debt back later on and it was a whole
process that we were renowned for. You make more money on somebody who can't pay a debt on their credit card than somebody who regularly pays their bill. This solution, that's how I view this, is NOT for everybody but for those individuals who find themselves in a ever worsening situation it is sad because I have talked to people that say they couldn't live without their credit cards. Not that they are addicted to them, they need that extra wiggle room that they are allowed with their credit cards.
keitha000 on 03/28/2005:
That âMumble jumbleâ that you mentioned is the exact law taken out of the FDCPA directly. I'm sorry that you have no education on determining or understanding legal jargon. Going back and reading some of your post it appears that you sir are indeed working for the better of the collection agencies. You have never mentioned anything other than how to pay the collection agency. I know for a fact that NCO pays and employs people to write specific web pages and work on discussion boards to deter people from finding out the truth. Sorry but thatâs not going to happen anymore. People we are protected not the collection agencies. Please read the FDCPA here http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fdcpa/fdcpact.htm. It has everything that the collection companies can and cannot do. And for your information to clear this last thing up, the law speficly states âIf a consumer notifies a debt collector in writing that the consumer refuses to pay a debt or that the consumer wishes the debt collector to CEASE FURTHER COMMUNICATION with the consumer, the debt collector shall NOT COMMUNICATE FURTHER with the consumer with respect to such debt. What part of this do you not understand? I think we all know what's going on now. But hey catchy name, its not going to work anymore. NCO is going to have to send you to a whole lot of legal schooling if you want to take me on. Keith
keitha000 on 03/28/2005:
The law states that I have to notify you the collection agency. Legally you would do that with a cease and desist letter. Or any thing you want to call the letter you write as long as it says that you are not allowed to call my home or place of work or anyone place or thing in conjunction with the account you are trying to collect. Technically after such a letter if the collection companies still call or harass you, you can sue them for harassment. Just log down the times they are calling and contact the phone company to have a list of calls placed to your phone by whom ever. A list of the calls you have received. If they mail you save everything the envelope they mailed it in the letters everything. This in court will be more than sufficient in obtaining a judgment against such companies. Keith
DebtorBasher on 03/30/2005:
OK Keith...now I'm starting to feel guilty. I just wanted to see how far you would go to try to explain the obvious that has already been posted 100+ times on here. If you've read my past postings, you will see that I well understand what a cease and desist letter is, I am very well educated on the FDCPA and State laws (My NCO has an excellent training program). As for being paid by NCO for coming onto these websites...if that was the case, they would have fired me awhile ago, because if you notice in my past postings, I do inform the people on here of their rights under the FDCPA. If NCO is such a bad company and has no care for the laws, as people claim on here, do you really think they would be paying me to come on here to inform people of their rights and the law? I think not.
We already have our lawyer on here representing the debtors...Madeye Moody...but, you are welcome to follow behind him by 10 paces if you'd like. I officially welcome you to this site.
Anonymous on 03/30/2005:
Tx. You are a financial adviser too? Why do all your remedies to people's problems have to involve a government entity or the corporate office? People with social skills handle their problems on site and on their own in most cases.You are a pathetic, grandiose, loner/loser tx. Southplatte you can pretty much do the same thing those consumer credit counseling places do on your own. Maybe try negotiating with your creditors first.
Mad Eye Moody on 03/31/2005:
Wow. Keith - it's illegal to take more than your prescribed dosage of adderall, you know. Good points for the most part - certain aspects of this process are always good to review - thanks for taking the time to put all of that in your own words.
DebtorBasher on 04/03/2005:
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Who does NCO think they are?
Posted by
SAINT CHARLES COUNTY, MISSOURI -- March 11, 2005 -- Saint Charles County, Missouri -- So it's a cruddy Friday out there and I'm sitting at my computer, doing what I do at my computer, and the phone rings. I let the machine get it. It's "Mr. Shapiro" and he's "not calling to sell anything" but he has "important information" for me that he has to "act on immediately." What the heck, I'm feeling feisty today. 1-888-475-6741 is the number he left; it's the number I called. What fun ensued! Not only was the non-native-English-speaking-gentleman on the other end of the phone rude and condescending, he seemed to be absolutely shocked to hear that I wasn't going to discuss repayment of my defaulted student loan. I explained that I was currently unepmloyed and receiving government assistance, and this twit had the audacity to ask why I wasn't going to pay off the loan. I explained (when I could get a word in over him) that repaying student loans was WAY down on my list of priorities. Behind food, electric, water, phone, gasoline, auto insurance, those kind of things. But the twit is persistent. "This is a bill just like any other. You have to pay this bill also," he said. He asked how I paid my rent for over a year without a job and I told him, flat out, "I live in the house my parents used to live in." WHich is true. It's paid for and I get to live here now. They have moved on to bigger and better things. But I digress. Then the questioning moved on to my mysterious ability to pay my other bills. I explained it very simply. I'm a drain on society. The Feds pay my bills. Then Mr. Supervisor jumped on the line. What a peach! Mr Supervisor asked me why I couldn't ask my parents for the money, seeing as I was living in their house? Or better yet, why didn't I just go out and get a job? It was at this point I got fed up. The man wasn't even bothering to breathe between questions. I couldn't get a word in edgewise, so I told him that he knew nothing about me or my circumstances, and that he should just "Have a nice day." Then I hung up. I fully expect to go through something like this on Monday the 14th. I plan to call back. I'll probably call back on the 15th, 16th, 17th, and 18th too. Who knows, maybe I can find a new friend this way. I guess the gist of my complaint is this: NCO Financial Systems, Inc. (part of the larger NCO Group http://www.ncogroup.com/ ) claims -- and I'm Quoting from their own freaking web site here: "Our representatives have the specific training and experience to successfully service education receivables. They are familiar with the requirements of Title IV student loan programs, including FFELP and Perkins loans. They are trained to perform with sensitivity to the circumstances of student borrowers while observing the best interest of our collection partner. We have designed, implemented, and successfully provided collection programs according to the unique requirements of our clients and in strict compliance with all applicable laws and regulations." [ http://www.ncogroup.com/industries/education_guaranty.aspx ] -They are trained to perform with sensitivity to the circumstances of student borrowers while observing the BEST INTEREST OF OUR COLLECTION PARTNER.- It gets better, they BRAG about how they hound people. Read on: NCO's "collection service imparts a sense of urgency upon seriously delinquent customers," and results in "reducing net write-offs and the cost of collecting after charge-off." And how do they manage to do this? I'm glad you asked. You know what? Just read the whole [ http://www.ncogroup.com/services/finance_third_party.aspx ] page. In fact, browse around NCO's entire site and see what scum they are. "Whether eliminating positions or reallocating staff, selling bad debt portfolios will open opportunities for our clients to refocus on core competencies." Sell them your in-house debt and you don't need those people in accounts receivable anymore. Get rid of 'em! Ship their jobs to India, or Antigua, Barbados, Panama, the Philippines, or Puerto Rico. You know what? If you get a call from "Mr. Shapiro" and he tells you to call 1-888-475-6741, just let it go. ***** A copy of this was sent to NCO Group, let's see if they have anything to say, shall we? *****
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Collections_King on 03/11/2005:
congratulations you get a call from collections and decide not to do a job search, but find a mission statement to throw back at nco and come on here to whine. you said it yourself, you are a drain on society, you would think an education could get you somewhere in life, but I suppose ambition wouldn't help either...
sallywilson on 03/11/2005:
Are you expecting sympathy from those of us who work hard so that we are not a burden on society? What a huge disappointment you must be to your parents. Grow up.
DebtorBasher on 03/11/2005:
Did you use your student loan for an education? For the time it took you to read the entire NCO website and find this site to whine on, you could have probably done at least two job interviews.
Collections_King on 03/12/2005:
thank god, for once mines not the only hateful posting :)
DebtorBasher on 03/12/2005:
You really shouldn't be thanking God for being hateful.
Anonymous on 03/13/2005:
Time is on your side. You have nothing therefore you are safe. I wouldn't do the job search because once you have an income then you become fair game. Since this a student loan then you'll probably have to stay unemployed for the rest of your life because I don't think standard SOL applies. Don't listen to these people, they are tainted by old fashion outdated values and a sense of responsibility. They don't realize just how hard it is to be good at doing nothing.. Honestly.. Most people don't have patience or dedication to perfect the art of nothingness... I admire your gift of being able to do nothing and from your post you seem to be very good at doing nothing.. Cheers!
Mad Eye Moody on 03/14/2005:
This guy was basically just doing his job; if you weren't going to pay, which was pretty apparent from the first few minutes of the call, his next objective is to get as much info on you as possible. I would end these calls as quickly as possible in the future, and forget about NCO until you find a way out of the hole you're in. Their job is to make it seem as though paying them should be your first priority. However, everyone on this site, collector and consumer alike, will agree that your food, shelter, clothing and utilities come first. This loan will be around forever…there's not SOL on student loans, so you'll be able to deal with it when you're ready to, or you are sued - whatever comes first.
Collections_King on 03/15/2005:
for a moment I'm going to forget about stews post because its either really stupid or sarcasticly hilarious, how do student loans work in the states? I know ontario student loans are endorsed by the govt and if some1 defaults its paid by the govt and then they come after you, sure sounds like a better system then letting an educated moron just never get a job
unrepentant_debtor on 03/22/2005:
MY REPLY: Okay, dig it. I USED to install hardwood floors, started in 1984. Many years later and my knees and back are shot. I can't stand for long periods of time, I can't lift heavy loads repeatedly. I went to college to learn to do something 'white collar'. Problem is, I majored in Anthropology. Now in case you didn't know, a BA in Anthropology allows one to perform the following function: "Would you like fries with that?" I have been unemployed for over a year, and I have been applying everywhere my 1987 Buick will take me. I even struck out with the state employment agency. I know, boo-hoo for me, right?
Hebetudinism abounds on 05/06/2005:
How about getting off of your computer... getting a job... and paying your bills? How is it everyone else's fault and not yours? Pay your bill loser...
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Federal Fair Debt Collection Practices Act violations
Posted by
HORSHAM, PENNSYLVANIA -- This company has harassed me for several months with their debt collections and I'm not even the person they are trying to reach. After repeatedly, as in the dozens of times, telling them I am not the person they are trying to reach and that I have no information on the person they are trying to reach and that the number they are calling is my number and not connected to the person they are trying to reach, they still call multiple times daily.
Now, they won't even identify themselves when they call but they can not hide their phones numbers from my phone company. I have phone company documentation that they called four times since early this morning.
Every reference I can find on NCO Financial Services indicates that they have a consistent record of violating both federal and state laws involving debt collection. That shows their lack of ethics and, naturally, honesty. I can reach no other conclusion considering they continually harass me and I am not the person from whom they are trying to collect and have told them so many, many times.
This company needs to be shut down and its principals jailed.
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madconsumer on 12/08/2009:
nco is bottom feeders. they will do this until you file a complaint with the ftc.
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Posted by
After receiving nothing from Capital one for over 3 years, I received a notice in the mail from NCO. I called them the same day to inform them that the account was closed over 3 years ago. The women I talked to pretty much called me a liar and told me I had to live up to my responsibility. She them told me she would accept a payment of 900 (on an original balance of 200), I told her that I would not pay that and thatâs when she told me then "further action would be taken". I again told her that the account was already paid; she said that she had no documents proving that and unless I had the cancel check I needed to pay. Who keeps canceled checks for over 3 years? I told her to have a nice day and hung up. I called back a few minutes later after looking for the paperwork and calling my old back (who also do not check canceled checks after the account is closed) and tried to set up a deal to pay the account again. I spoke with 3 people who were just downright rude.
When I asked why it has been 3 years since someone contacted me I was told that that was not their problem and I should have contacted them (on an account that was settled!!!!). I told them that the settlement price they were asking was ridiculous and that the account was almost 10 years old. They told me that they spoke with Capital one via email and that is what they offered. I asked to be forwarded the email and was denied. Then the women on the phone started to yell at me that that was the offer, take it or I could pay the balance in full. I asked her not to raise her voice to me and she said that she was "tired of playing my games" that I needed to finally take responsibility for my actions. I then told her that I did not appreciate the attitude and rudeness that I have encountered since I first called and she said that she did not appreciate my attitude. I told her that I have been very good up to this point and even offered to pay again for an account over 10 years old that I already paid for once.
She told me that she would not continue to have the same conversation and either I pay for the debt or they would further action. That is when I get the payment information and told her I needed time to decide. What kind of company is this? I offer to pay and get belittled by them in the process. I am tempted to not pay just because I don't want any of those people getting any money from me after the way they acted!
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Soaring Consumer on 05/20/2009:
NCO is a group of bottomfeeders, the lowest of the low, the worst of the worst.
Do not give into their futile threats and twisted lies. Send them a letter of dispute and a letter to cease and desist contacting you in certified mail.
I suggest that you contact Capital One about this, and attempt to resolve this directly with them.
I also recommend contacting a community member here, DebtorBasher, who used to work for NCO and has the experience to help you deal with this.
DebtorBasher on 05/20/2009:
It's not very clear how old this account was. You said it was 10 years old, then said it was closed three years ago. Do you mean the account was OPENED ten years ago and close three years ago? Anyway, if you already paid it, don't pay it again. Have them send you a validation of debt. You can go to my blog and click on the link. It will take you to some form letters you can fill out. Send it to them certifie with retturn receipt. Make note of the date they got it because they will by FDCPA law, have to provide proof on the debt within 30 days. They are in violation of the FDCPA if they said they ARE going to take further action against you. They can not make that threat without the intentions of going through with it, and I can say for a balance of that amount, they have no intentions to do so. Even if they did, you would be contacted by their legal department. The collectors can not tell people that because they have no idea which accounts would have further action taken on them. That is an FDCPA 'misleading' violation and also a threat. On the other hand, they CAN tell you the MAY take further action, becaue they may/might. So, it's important to pay attention to the wording they use.
Soleil88 on 01/22/2010:
Please pass this along, they are having their employees sign a petition that goes to Congress about some new law that affects the FDCPA laws in place, a law that would restrict companies like NCO more, they told their employees if they didn't sign it there would be lay-offs and building closings. They even gave it to departments at NCO that does not do any collections and these poor reps have no clue why they are signing this petition. They are getting people to sign it under false pretenses and also if you don't sign it they write your name down, so far some of the people who refused to sign it have been laid off.
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Latest comments on album
- by dylino_rynoSlayer was direct support for Pantera on this your in the very early 2000's. It's an arena and my seats are decent but not great. While changeover is happening for the Slayer set, I started talking with some dudes named Mike and Pete seated next to me. Our discussion turned to the the insanity of Slayer pits and one of my new friends suggested we rush the pit when the lights go black right before Slayer starts. Playing devils advocate, I point to several police officers ...
- by MickthebikeThursday evening I've been waiting for 2 hours when I see SLAYER out of their bus to enter La Laiterie Strasbourg ... A sign of Gary, smiling Tom and entered prepare ... 21:30, the background music stops ... It's gone! A fucking show with a great choice of songs!! The plublic is shaped ... And SLAYER in great shape! The show is apocalyptic! 1:45 of pure bliss and cutting up the ass!! HELLYEAH SLAYER!!
- by Kelo311I would love to know how Slayer plans a "world" tour but yet isn't coming to the most important city in the world,FUCKING NYC?? Anyone?
- by rayalukI was lucky enough to get to go and see the boys play in Camden last night. The show was awesome! Typically tight sounding thrashing Slayer show. Getting to see "Old School Slayer Night" was perfect for me as 85-90 was when my musical taste was developed and I know the lyrics of every album front to back from that time period. Absolutely all my favorites! The pit was a little active throughout the show but I can tell that the Slayer audience is getting a little older as I ...
- by Chanpion09Just saw Slayer in Columbus for the first time, and also the first metal show I've been too. Big eye opener getting clocked in the face in the first 5 minutes, but it was rad as hell. Shit got gnarly and heavy and it was exactly how I imagined it'd be
- by Number1ndnOk so I just signed up for an account n I am 25 been to plenty of metal shows, super big fan of Megadeth, I've seen them like 5 times. Any way I'm like 5"11' benching 365 n pretty much fuck up shit in the pit!!! So i haven't been to a Slayer concert yet!!! I'm going to see them this Friday in Las Vegas. I hear stories about the Slayer shows my older cousins been to back in the 90's but they don't get down in the pit like I do!! Some ppl like sky ...
- by GinsengMy first Slayer shows were when they co-headlined Pantera's two final U.S. Tours. I was 15. Went to the show alone, don't remember how I got home a hour away. concerts pre-9/11 were fucking crazy! First thing I wanted to do was get high and mosh, held my own for awhile until some fat kid started skanking and punched me in the mouth. Got cheap shotted in the back by a skinhead, there were a lot of them there for Pantera obviously. I remember making it through WAR ENSEMBLE. The ...
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- by buzzgudAfter being in the Army for four years and missing you guys all four years, YOU GUYS COME TO MASS!! I'll be there and can't wait to fucking mosh my way to hell!!
- by vanhapeltoIn summer 2011 Slayer was playing the Heavy festival in Toronto so I knew I'd have to make the journey to the big city. The last night's top three headliners (in order of time playing) were Slayer, Billy Talent and then Rob Zombie. Well everyone thought that Slayer was going to close out the festival but to everyone's dismay it looked as if Slayer would technically be opening for Rob Zombie... and Billy Talent. This did not sit well with the hardcore metal crowd of ...
- by jedi68Good afternoon, I wish I could have contact with the band manager, since they Slayer band is comming to Mexico City I would like to know if they will be willing to do something with low resources young people that is good fan of the band. Please send me an e-mail to email@example.com
- by KawalChujaI first heard Slayer in 1998. I was 11 at the time. My older brother just bought the Diabolus In Musica tape. I'll probably make a pussy out of myself but at first I was so fucking afraid of this whiteheaded motherfucker on the cover that I didn't want to get anywhere near this tape. But finally curiosity won. I've put the tape in, pressed play and I waited. It was on side A and the first track was Bitter Peace. At first it was normal. Some guitars, some drums. Just music. ...
- by zaskar75SLAYER WERE IN TOWN MUST HAVE BEEN EARLY 90S ONLY PASSING THROUGH TO DO A SOUND CHECK , ME AND A LOAD OF OTHER KIDS FROM LIVERPOOL. DENIM OVER BIKER JACKETS ETC STOOD IN THE RAIN FOR HOURS MAN. LISTENING TO THE LADS PULL THE SOUND SYSTEM APART . AFTER ABOUT FIVE HOURS THE CAME OUT AND THROUGH A FEW SIGNATURES AND DONE A LEGGER , IVE STILL GOT MY SEASONS IN THE ABYSS PICTURE DISC SIGNED BY JEFF AND KERRY 20 YEARS LATER . RIP BIG MAN SOUTH OF HEAVEN
- by geertmargodtI still remember this day as it was yesterday..... Heavy Sound Festival in Belgium (1985).... You guys joined us at the festival bar drinking beers, telling jokes.... This was fun ! From that day on, Slayer was in my heart.
- by biker123i went to my first slayer concert either in 2012 or 2011 and everybody was headbanging including me and it was a fucking awesome concert
This album reminded me why slayer is the best band on earth. The almighty slayer! this one and divine are my favs
this album contains the very first song i heard from slayer when i was 10 years old which is bloodline this album is just amazing
Slayers angriest album. If Diabolus is Jeff's album then this is definately Kerry's. A lot of angst but this makes for an interesting very fast album. Not bad but not one of the best in my opinion...
The tracks Disciple, Here Comes the Pain, Warzone, Exile and above all New Faith still just blow my mind nowadays.
Oh, I forgot to mention Threshold. There's merely a dozen people to whom I should say these lyrics every fuckin' day.
Definitely one of the more underappreciated Slayer albums. Just because they lost Lombardo for a bit doesn't mean Slayer lost it..Bostaph did an excellent job on this Album..."You'll Pray for Death"-New Faith
The Acronym for Slayer-Satan Laughs as you Eternally Rot
Does anyone know where can i buy this cd?? pleaseI really want this cd!
slayers the best this is a really good album it fucking kicks your ass diciple and bloodline are my favorite songs on this album and its just fucking metal as hell fuck yeahhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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