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I'd say the cloak is the biggest upgrade bang for the buck, at only 35 badges it's a steal. There are only a few better tank cloaks in the game. The legs are probably going to last you a long time as well, so i'd make those two your top priority.
Ok, so I have been saving badges for weeks now waiting to get [item]Girdle of the Fearless[/item] as my first badge pick. Last night however I picked up the karazhan belt, [item]Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable[/item] and now I think it's probably wiser to upgrade some of these blue pieces first before doing the belt. The question is, which piece? More importantly, what is the decision making process that I should be going through here?
Here are some candidates for badge replacement:
[item]Timewarden's Leggings[/item] -> [item]Sunguard Legplates[/item] ([item]regal nightseye[/item], 1x sse, purple clefthoof kit)
[item]Felsteel Gloves[/item] -> [item]Bonefist Gauntlets[/item] (w/ 2% threat, 1x sse, 1x [item]regal nightseye[/item])
[item]Amber Bands of the Aggressor[/item] -> [item]Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx[/item] (+12 sta)
[item]Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable[/item] -> [item]Girdle of the Fearless[/item] (1x [item]Regal Nightseye[/item])
[item]Devilshark Cape[/item] -> [item]Slikk's Cloak of Placation[/item] (12 def)
[item]Wind Trader's Band[/item]->[item]Ring of the Stalwart Protector[/item].
Note that all of these items will be replaced the question is which first. Also that I do have threat issues and I need to worry about that. Also note that I am closely riding the defense cap, and I would have to respec into anticipation to get the gloves first, for instance. The wonky spec is because I am offtank and I want to provide raid utility in the form of demo shout, coupled with the need to farm honor for the S2 stuff next week. It's an ugly spec but that is what I settled on for the moment for reasons particular to what I need to do with my time. So please don't harass me too much when you see my armory. The World of Warcraft Armory
I'm thinking that the chest will be replaced with S2 next week (honor is already saved), so that is not really a consideration.
I have 69 badges at the moment, so I think I should make a big badge purchase first, not one of the small ones. This leaves me with legs and gauntlets at the top of the list, because both of those will give me a huge threat increase, and both of those are deserving of expensive aftermarket upgrades that I currently don't have (eg. threat enchant, purple clefthoof armor).
I'd say the cloak is the biggest upgrade bang for the buck, at only 35 badges it's a steal. There are only a few better tank cloaks in the game. The legs are probably going to last you a long time as well, so i'd make those two your top priority.
I went cloak then legguards. Wish I had gone the other way around. Both are extremely useful, but those legs are awesome.
i would get cape, pants, ring (if you dont get another first), gloves - then everything else. like creampuf said the cloak is best thing going for a long time and the enchants for it are cheap. that also gives you a bit of time to get mats together for a nethercleft and 2% threat enchant.
i'd do the cloak last, the devilshark is a miraculously well itemized cloak especially for being a blue, you can stick with that cloak until you have spare stuff to use. I think the belt is still a great upgrade for you, but the legs would probably be my next suggestion, then the bracers and just hold out on the gloves till you get either of the karazhan gloves. Eventually you'll want to grab the bonefist.
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Thanks for advice guys. I picked up a [item]Band of Determination[/item] yesterday so the ring can wait (I expect I'll get the next Shermanaar ring, so that can serve as the survival ring along with the Violet Eye ring). The order will be Legs / Bracers / Belt / Cloak unless something changes in the meantime.
I was just going to say exactly that about the ring. I wear the blue ring above and my Violet Eye ring. That's it. Expertise is huge. Huger than additional sta/AC for me right now.
Yeah that ring is awesome. I use it in 5 mans and any raid where I don't expect to die out of nowhere.
Badge Chest (please forget s2 this chest is amazingly itemised)
Badge legs
Badge ring (I rank it here because your currently on 15% dodge 16% parry)
Badge Belt
Badge Bracers
I can't believe youd miss out Chestplate of Stoicism - Item - World of Warcraft its simply the best pre t6. There are no other real options its that good.
You can even do the veneritio and compare them as trinkets you wouldnt take a melee dps trinket over a trinket with stoicism's stats!
Oh yea you are definitely right Nicki Chestplate of Stoicism is way better...the thing is I have hundreds of badges worth of gear to buy and I need to be wearing a better chestpiece while I gather those badges...the legs, bracers, girdle, and cloak are bigger upgrades relative to the S2 gear than the chestpiece, so I pick the best badge pieces first and fill in the leftovers (shoulders, chest) with S2 gear. And I am sure I will one day get every piece of badge gear before I ever see a T6 drop so yes, it is inevitable. Thanks for the feedback though.

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When did the Church appear?
Post: #1
When did the Church appear?
Hi all.
I was involved in a brilliant discussion the other day and wondered if we could bring it onto here. It was about the nature of the Church and Baptism.
Quite simply, if the Sacramental Church started with Pentecost then were the sacraments we know considered Sacramental before?
So was Jesus' baptism the same as one now (Though not for remission of sins due to him being who he is)?
And if this was the case then was baptism a requirement for Salvation prior to Pentecost?
"The true Christian is a warrior making his way through the regiments of the invisible enemy to his heavenly homeland." - St Herman of Alaska.
Post: #2
Hi Daniel,
The other day I asked this question of Father Gregory, as a theological expert, and await his reply to my suggestions. When he has told me if I am a heretic (!) or not, I shall gladly share his views here.
With love and prayers,
Post: #3
It sounds more like you are messaging Fr. Ephraim. :lol:
"The true Christian is a warrior making his way through the regiments of the invisible enemy to his heavenly homeland." - St Herman of Alaska.
Post: #4
Re: When did the Church appear?
DanielM Wrote:So was Jesus' baptism the same as one now (Though not for remission of sins due to him being who he is)?Umm if i am not mistaken Christ's baptism was only one of repentance, "the baptism of John" even in acts they make the distinction between Johns baptisms and the baptism the church used, baptism of the Spirit...
Post: #5
Just to keep the pot boiling, so to speak, I have had some suggestions that point to the Church coming into existence almost, as it were, in two stages. It is regarded by some as being 'formed' at the Last Supper, with the institution of the Eucharist. But it was not 'Commissioned' until the Holy Ghost completed the process at Pentecost. (My terms, not necessarily theologically accurate.)
This may well be the case. However, it does not answer the question about the status of the sacraments prior to Pentecost. Clearly the Eucharist existed, but was it used or celebrated while Jesus was still on earth? We read that He broke bread and was recognised by doing so, but did anyone else follow His instruction from the Last Supper during this period?
And what of Baptism? If it was 'instituted' beside the Jordan but not 'activated' until Pentecost how were people admitted into the Church before then? I cannot imagine that the apostles remained the sole members until suddenly lots more people joined the Church at Pentecost - surely there would have been a gradual growth at least between the Resurrection and Pentecost.
I'm still awaiting answers from our theologians on this topic.
With love and prayers,
Post: #6
I am no theological expert, but the question itself goes even further, as the gospels themselves were not written until some 30 years after Christ's Ascension.
I read a book by Bart Ehrman (he is an atheist theologian, by the way), called "Lost Christianities', in which his research indicates that Christianity as we know it today did not really exist until some 400 years after Christ. Up until that point, there were lots of variations in how to worship, so I imagine baptism, Eucharist, etc. were all in flux as well at that point.
That is why they had all those Councils, e.g. Nicaea, etc., as so much had to be thrashed out as there were so many disagreements on what was what.
Doesn't alter the message and the salvation we were given by Christ's life, death and Resurrection, but I think the forms of worship that we now use were subject to change until that point in time (according to Bart, as I stipulate).
Post: #7
RE: When did the Church appear?
Hi Victoria, I thought i'd keep this going since it seemed to have died at an interesting point.
The practices of Baptism and Eucharist as we know them have indeed evolved over time, I think that to deny this would be a great discredit to the Church. Regardless of this, we know that they existed in a set way from the turn of the 1st Century. In the Didache (Teaching of the apostles) we can read that they practiced a highly ritualised Baptism, closed communion and wed/fri fasting (8:1) as the copts do now.
The Eucharist as we know it is also mentioned in the writings of Justin Martyr, he speaks of a closed communion with the Eucharistic prayer and transubstatiation of Bread and wine to body and blood.
"so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh" First Apology Ch 66.
Interestingly they also practiced Sacramental confession, not allowing communion to those that had not reconciled all differences with others and confessed their sins, since it would defile the offering to recieve it without this. This practice has of course evolved but appeared to be certainly formalised at least in those communities that practiced what they were taught without altering it.
As you have said, These were not formalised in many cases until the Ecumenical Councils, which of course leads to some ambiguity (as one would expect in any community with norms but no formalised ruling). It is important to remember though that the St James Liturgy has existed since between 60-100AD, so there must have been some form of formalised worship, at least in a reasonably influental and central christian community, at that time for it to have survived and developed into the liturgies we know now.
"The true Christian is a warrior making his way through the regiments of the invisible enemy to his heavenly homeland." - St Herman of Alaska.
Post: #8
RE: When did the Church appear?
(18-02-2012 12:16 PM)DanielM Wrote: Hi Victoria, I thought i'd keep this going since it seemed to have died at an interesting point.
i believe (at least in the latin church) confession was open as well It was St. Patrick who brought about a change to personal confessions that wasn't until 433ish...
A Thiarna Íosa Críost, A Mhic Dé, déan trócaire orm, mar is peacach mé
Post: #9
RE: When did the Church appear?
Well, it was certainly practiced to a preach in the mi 4th Century.
Athanasius of Alexandria said that "Just as a man is enlightened by the Holy Spirit when he is baptized by a priest, so he who confesses his sins with a repentant heart obtains their remission from the priest."
Also John Chrysostom knew of Confession to the Priest alone, acting as a representative of God when he wrote:
"Great is the dignity of priests. 'Whose sins you forgive,' He says, 'they are forgiven them' [John 20:23] The things that are placed in the hands of the priest, it belongs to God alone to give" (Homilies on John 86:4)
He mentions the Priest being there but the confession going to God alone, so it is safe to presume that this is a private form of confession in the mid 4th century also.
"The true Christian is a warrior making his way through the regiments of the invisible enemy to his heavenly homeland." - St Herman of Alaska.
Post: #10
RE: When did the Church appear?
i wonder how different things had become then, St Patrick was scandalized by a sin he confessed in his youth, it was brought up and held against him in his 80-90s and so he began to start doing personal/private confessions in hopes that situations like that could never arise... but like i said that was 433ish, unless i wonder if clergy had a different form of confession?
A Thiarna Íosa Críost, A Mhic Dé, déan trócaire orm, mar is peacach mé
Post: #11
RE: When did the Church appear?
It was probably an East/West thing. By this time there was already cultural practice differences between the areas, so some things which were accepted in hellenized lands wouldn't have reached Rome or the lands west of that yet.
"The true Christian is a warrior making his way through the regiments of the invisible enemy to his heavenly homeland." - St Herman of Alaska.
Post: #12
RE: When did the Church appear?
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
It's a good idea not to get tangled up in words.The Church is the Body of Christ, its mission began on the day of Pentecost, Our Lord instigated baptism when he received the baptism of repentance from Jophn the Baptist, not because He needed to repent, but in order to bless the waters for all future acts of baptism. Obviously Church rites have developed over the centuries, but they all stem from the very beginning. In the Syriac Orthodox Church it is Tradition that the Liturgy of St James was delivered by Our Lord Jesus Christ to his kinsman James during one of His reusrrection appearances.
With prayers,
kirk Yacoub
Post: #13
RE: When did the Church appear?
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Reviewed by: dinosaursmom09
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Location: west monroe, la
Title: great product
Date: Nov 22, 2012
i am very satisfied with it. my daughter is very excited about her birthday coming up =]
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Reviewed by: Zachaboop
Location: Troy Ohio
Title: Cute but center piece is incomplte per directions
Date: Jul 07, 2011
Very cute and our son loved it other than the center piece isn't complete. Step 7 states take two pices with pictures facing out adn stick them inot slots. They only supply one and not two which means the center piece isn't viewable all away around with one piece instead of two and there is only one slot which mens for me to stick the one in I had two make a secondary slot. Incomplete product from manufacturer. Very disappointed wit this part of it! The only way to make this correct is two have two center pieces and use the extra piece and make a second slot for this to be correct.
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Date: Jun 24, 2011
I loved how this package came with everything, the streamers balloons, crepe paper! happy =)
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Date: Jun 01, 2011
I really love this set. This is the 2nd year purchasing from this company for my nephews birthday. I couldnt be happier! The shipping was really fast too!
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FORT WORTH, TEXAS -- We walked foolishly into this transaction with Chase out of desperation of needing a car. We were not coaxed nor talked into it. We were persuaded by the cost of replacing the transmission in the vehicle we had. We should never have made this decision as quickly as we did. Our fault, end of that chapter.
I will also not blame Chase for the financial bind we put ourselves into, however I do feel they take advantage of people with the type of loans they make and the interest they charge. But again, if we had not been so desperate, thinking this was our only option, we wouldn't have signed the papers and I would not be writing this letter. Our fault again for not paying enough attention.
Where I do find fault with Chase is in the way they do business. But, I guess this is the way corporations do business these days. As long as companies like Chase can distance themselves from the individual customer, they can be uncaring and cold in their practices. I am not asking for special treatment, don't get me wrong. I have a responsibility and I want to own up to it, but look at me as an individual. Look at my past performance, understand that I may have a problem and run into a hiccup in my finances. Oh, when the customer service representative is on the phone with you, you are made to feel like you are so very important and they have strong desire to help you. What one does not realize in that moment, that the main goal is to sugar coat the fact that while they are "helping" you, they are only thinking to get through this phone call and on to the next dead beat that does not pay their bills on time. In "helping" they suggest various sorts of ways, down to borrowing money from your neighbor. The ultimate "let us help you" I got last year was to defer two months payments. "This way we avoid annoying phone calls and you can get caught up and start fresh in two months." Great, thank you --- for nothing.
January roles around and the process of trying to purchase a home begins. Yet another assembly of flaming hoops to jump through, but that is another story. Chase has reported not the two actual (which I am not proud of) months past 30 days, but rather four consecutive months. I was told that Chase only shows two when I called three times in one week. When I called the fourth time, the following week, I finally reached someone who walked through the payment history with me. – after being told by the three previous employees they can't see the history, only that two payments had been late. Hmmm…..lazy or just untrained? As we walked through the history, yes, two payments, May and July were late. And yes, there is reason, which I explained each and every time to every person I talked to at Chase in those months which I was desperately trying to keep our finances afloat, not that they bother to make note of that, it's better to have the customer repeat over and over the struggle. I digress. Ms. [snip] explains to me that she will personally take care of this error in reporting to the credit bureaus (which I might add were not all reporting the same information) and request that it is corrected and that I would also receive a letter that I could give to the lender for the mortgage.
I waited patiently for two weeks to get said letter. When I got it, it was a form letter that indicated after researching the account, what was reported was indeed accurate and therefore no changes would be made in to the credit bureaus. Nicely played Chase, nicely played.
Upon speaking with an overly cheery Rosie Something-or-Other, who made me feel like the Steve Martin character from Planes, Trains and Automobiles, you know the scene, and being on hold for over 5 minutes, came back to unnecessarily go over the history with me three more times, then tells me she needs to research this info and I could either hold a few more minutes or she could call me back. I told her I would call Ms. [snip], which I did. Who also put me on hold for about 9 minutes only to return and offer the same deal Rosie had. At that point, I informed her that no, I needed to pick up a kid from school then my husband from work, why? because two weeks ago, we were in a four car collision resulting in his car being totaled and we are now down to one car – and yes, I interjected with how badly I wished it had been the Malibu – call me back. Which she did, leaving a message with the term "rolling delinquencies", meaning we are basically screwed because Chase has determined that while May was late, it is not reported as such, June was late but not past 30 days, but because May was past 30 days, June had (yes, 'had') to be reported as delinquent. Because July and August were paid in a double payment, August not being 30 days late, they both 'had' to be reported as delinquent. September, which was deferred (and they try to tell me every time that only October was deferred until I insist they check the record and only then do they see that it was September and October both) for some asinine reason, is also reported delinquent. No payment was due, but it is "accurately" reported delinquent. Ms. Corrales did seem genuinely sorry that she had misinformed me about correcting the error two weeks ago, but there was nothing she could do for me further. She told me it does not make sense to her either and that it took quite a bit of explaining for her to understand what "rolling delinquencies" meant, which she was unable to restate other than to repeat how it was reported, not why it was reported this way. Somehow, that all seems "fair and accurate" to Chase and I'm guessing to the credit bureaus as well.
So, thank you Chase for your cold and uncaring attitude toward your customers. I know I am not alone, as I publicly announce my intense loathing of your company; I am comforted in a rather twisted way to know others are treated as poorly as I have been. I am one person, but I will use my voice. Anywhere and everywhere I can get the word out as to your horrible business nature I will.
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DebtorBasher on 02/03/2013:
"they are only thinking to get through this phone call and on to the next dead beat..."
EXACTLY and I know because I used to work for Chase Mortgage. When we worked the account for the Hurricane victims (Katrina,Irene and the other one), Chase knew the people was unable to pay because many of them lost their income because the business' they worked for were destroyed and through no fault of their's, got behind on the payments. Our manager actually came right out and told us when they called, to 'Don't waste your time, you can't collect from them. Just tell them anything to get them off the phone so you can make calls to those you CAN collect from.' I'm telling you and everyone else, don't EVER get your mortgage through Chase. I really felt sorry for the people who did NOT choose Chase, but had their loans transferred or sold to them.
Also, if you DO have any loans with Chase, make sure you don't have a bank account with them because they WILL go into your account and just take their payment. I questioned my manager about this practice, they said it IS legal for them to do so, since it is their bank as well.
If you have anything with the 'Chase' name on it...get rid of it as fast as you can and run, run, RUN and never look back!!!
spiderman2 on 02/03/2013:
I'm sorry for your troubles, but this is just my opinion. If you were having trouble making your car payment please think about not purchasing a home. If you think the car loan was a pain to deal with, a mortgage company is going to be 10 times worse. Save some money and wait until you are financially VERY stable before you commit to a home purchase. Unfortunately, the days of going to the local bank and getting a loan are gone. Those were the times where your banker knew you. Now you are just an account number and no one really seems to care. Good luck to you.
DebtorBasher on 02/04/2013:
Agreed Spiderman!!!
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Chase Bank Refuses to Cooperate
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DETROIT, MICHIGAN -- In January of this year, my parents notified Chase bank that their automatic payments on their Ford F150 truck were being taken out too early and causing overdrafts on their account. In February, they received a "Notice of Lien Release" and was told via letter that their truck had been paid off. My mother contacted Chase to inquire how the truck was paid off and was told that the check was no good, but was drawn off of a business account and she was given the account number off the check.
My parents were mailed Title release information which they took to the State of Michigan Secretary of State office and they were given a clean title.
In March of this year, my parents started receiving past due statements. When my mother talked to a representative at the Secretary of State, she informed them that the phone calls and past due statements were probably a scam and not to have any contact with Chase. My mother began mailing the release of title notice to any one of the Chase affiliates across the country that sent a past due notice. She never received any communication.
In May, she received a FedEx packet from Chase telling them to sign the truck BACK OVER TO CHASE and to pay the title change fees. An APOLOGY LETTER was sent to my parents and a copy of it was sent to the company's VP stating that they appreciated their business and were sorry about the mixup with the fees being taken too early, and congratulated them on paying the truck off. A $1900.00 check for interest was issued, but was kept by Chase (reason unknown to me). They claim now, that my parents cashed the 1900.00 check and the check was never sent here.
My mother consulted with an attorney and the attorney told them to speak with Chase. My mother has provided all of the documentation of the letter's she's received (sent via certified mail). NOW Chase is saying that they sent a letter to my parent's home stating that an error had been made on their account in March of this year. They never received a letter. They are claiming that it was sent via FedEx. I am here DAILY and no FedEx letter, other than the one with demanding that the title be signed back over to Chase.
Chase other than right now (my mother is in a HEATED CONVERSATION right now as I type with a rep), Chase has never commmunicated in writing with my parents that an error was made. They CLAIM that they informed my father in May. The called my parent's home, DEMANDING a $300 payment be made the other day, and my poor father, who isn't well, made the payment, even though technically, my parent's own the truck and there was no money. They have not put ANYTHING in writing, stating that they made an error. NOW they are saying that they sent them a letter saying that an error was made and that they can provide proof of such, which my mother believes was printed sometime last week.
All my parents are asking for is for the 5 months that they were under the impression that they truck was paid for, be written off. They are more than happy to satisfy the balance of the loan. Chase is refusing to do even that, stating that they want to move the payments to the end of the loan cycle, essentially saying that they still have to pay the money, no matter what.
My mother is 71, my father is 70. I HATE that they are going through this with this bank. Any other bank (in my experience) that has made an error, is willing to admit it, apologize, make some kind of concessions and continue the banking relationship. Not Chase. They refuse to bend, or cooperate, and I wonder how they expect to continue remaining a solvent company if they refuse to cooperate with the very people's money they used to run on a daily basis?
They have threatened to reposses the truck, but I can't understand how they can do that, when my parent's have a title in my father's name. Can they do something like that?
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bob932304 on 08/02/2012:
Your lawyer should be actively involved in this. This is their kind of job - you can't beat the bank but the lawyer might be able to.
trmn8r on 08/02/2012:
I really don't understand the details that you have provided, starting with the check that was no good and drawn on a business account in the first paragraph, or the $1900 check for "interest".
It looks like the bottom line is the bank made an error in assuming this vehicle was paid off, and one of the results was there were no payments made for 5 months. I don't see why any monthly payments should be "written off", but fees associated with this fiasco should be forgiven/reimbursed by Chase. Good luck getting a final resolution!
clutzycook on 08/03/2012:
Bob is right, you're going to need a lawyer to sort out this mess, but it sounds like the lawyer your mother consulted with was next to useless, they should have gotten to the bottom of this a long time ago. Speak with a different lawyer, one who will actually do something to earn their fees.
Once again, this proves that it's a bad idea to let ANY company or bank pay your bills automatically. It might be a bigger pain to have to go in every month and enter them yourself, but at least you know the money won't be paid out unless you say so.
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If you like being treated like crap, CHASE is the bank for you!!!
Posted by
I financed a car from chase over 2 years ago. My 1st payment was made over the phone so it wouldn't be late because there wasn't a Chase bank in my area. I paid it a few days before it was due and then got a call a few weeks later from their collections dept and spoke to the rudest person I've ever spoken to. I was moving from NM to KY and didn't have a perm add yet and told him I was still getting mail sent to my prev add. I tried to tell him I made them payment over the phone but he didn't care. (It turned out the retarded representative I made the payment with over the phone didn't enter the check info right so it returned.) He was so rude that I just hung up on him. Since then I've been paying in branches (where the people are not very friendly either.) A little over a month ago the company I was working for went out of business. With me not having a job and my husband being a new realtor we are struggling. I called them to see if they could put this payment onto the end of my loan because a few of my friends said their banks have done it for them (wish I financed my car through THEIR banks!!) I got transferred back and forth for about 45 minutes before being put through to someone in the NM office where I left a VM. My husband just called them because they won't leave us alone (I have refused to talk to them for the last 2 years because of my 1st experience) and tried to VERY NICELY explain the situation to the collector. I was just able to find a job and he just started a 2nd job and we will be able to pay them the past due payment and the next payment next week. She told him it's not their problem, they're not in the business of giving out hand outs.. among other rude comments. We weren't asking for a hand out!!! We were letting them know when we would be able to pay it!! I understand I owe them money but to be SO RUDE!!! I will do anything I have to to pay this company off in the next few months so I don't have to deal with them ever again. I have successfully gotten a few people to close their Chase accounts already and hope more people see the light. I just told my mother in law, who has had an account with them for many years, about this experience and she will be closing her account this afternoon!! I really hope they are one of the banks that goes under in all this. I would LOVE for every person I've talked to in the company to lose their job and see what it's like to not be able to get a job in this economy!
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Slimjim on 01/12/2010:
I just don't get why someone who has a perfectly good relationship with a business would move on because someone else they know didn't. I can see not financing or using Chase for anything going forward based on hearsay experience, but to go through all the trouble of moving an account just because of someone else's dispute? I use Bank of America and while they may tick me off down the road like many others, I certainly am standing pat till, more like IF, it actually happens.
Anonymous on 01/12/2010:
Slim, That's like saying even if a dude has a history of pimp slapping every one of his previous girl friends a current girl friend should not consider all that pimp slapping until down the road when she herself gets pimp slapped.
I don't know about you but I don't need a glop of tartar sauce to fall in my lap to know that a FoF sandwich is a hazard to my dockers.
Anonymous on 01/12/2010:
Chase is Evil. As I can understand your problems with them, most any collection agent you talk to is going to be rude. These people are paid to do just that. They try to bully and threaten you into paying. Of course the letters they send you in the MAIL are polite and nice, they can getaway with it on the phone. Its the way it works. These banks play nice and are your friend, as long as youre paying them....The second you miss a payment, they turn into demons from hell. Pay off your debt to them, cancel your accounts. Chase surely is the evil bank of America.
Slimjim on 01/12/2010:
Not all together true Stew. While BOA has its share of haters, it also has 10s of thousands of customers it hasn't and probably never will, smack around. Your example is a perfect illustration. I have had the infamous fish a few times and because I know how to not tick off the drive through mike-man, I have yet to ever put my Sergio Valentes at risk.
Anonymous on 01/12/2010:
Good points Slim. I find it sort of amusing that the ones who hate BoA the loudest, don't even bank there, although more than half the households in the US do (in some fashion).
goduke on 01/12/2010:
Given my past few relationships, it does appear that I like being treated like crap, so I suppose I should go open a Chase account.
Really, thought, when you made the payment over the phone, you had to have known the check didn't clear the bank, because your balance was too high. That might have been a clue that something was wrong. I use my bank's online payment portal for my car payment. Works like a champ.
Anonymous on 01/12/2010:
I was a Bank of America customer for years. I used them not as my primary bank but as a way to avoid paying ATM fees when on the road. When my bank began refunding all ATM fees I no longer had a need for Bank of America.
I never had a problem with BoA but they didn't dazzle me either. Heck, I even opened up a brokerage account with them and that too was less than impressive. I don't hate BoA per se it is more along the lines that I find their mere existence and their practices to be most unkind to both the consumer and our local communities.
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Bad business practices, horrible customer service
Posted by
fed up with Chase auto finance
SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA -- I make my payments on the companies website...I had an issue with late charges on my autoloan in July. I was on vacation and paid one day late. This oversight caused me nothing but headaches with their obviously unempowered and poorly trained customer service staff. My issue has still gone unresolved and I have not received an good explanation. It seems that there is much more to the issue, and type of situation on their end. I have decided it is an ideal cover up/set up for them to scam money from the clients they claim to care about. It appears that in this instance if you make a payment, and pay a $10.00 immediate processing fee, they don't provide you with the options necessary to have your payment applied properly and they then rack up more late charges against your account and play the "you have to contact us" game in order to have the payments applied properly. And then when you do, as I did, contact them, they act as if you are stupid for paying a bill late and completely crazy for expecting that your payment be applied to any and all charges you have incurred...it is a SCAM for them which allows them to continue charging you late fee upon late fee, until you tell them you intended the monies included in your payment to be applied to both principal, interest and LATE FEES!!! Hello? Talk about a SCAM by a supposedly reliable and honest financial institution! I have given up on getting any kind of assistance from the company and decided to post this information and contact the BBB or some other organization for assistance. I am sure that I will have no power to effect change against this monster so I hope that a warning not to finance your auto loan with Chase will prevent others from making the mistake of selecting them to finance an auto loan in the future.
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bill on 07/19/2007:
You were late and they charged you a late fee. Were is the scam?
Anonymous on 07/19/2007:
Couldn't have said it better myself, Bill.
cadydid on 07/20/2007:
What did you expect them to do? You paid your bill late and with that comes late fees.
Anonymous on 07/20/2007:
cadydid - Probably like most of us they expected to get kissed before they got screwed.
fed up with Chase auto finance on 07/21/2007:
Yes, I agree with your comments about my responsibility for the late fee. The scam is that when you make payments, their system does not allow you to designate a portion of your payment to the late fee. However it does charge an additional 10.00 for immediate processing. And yes, a charge for immediate processing is acceptable. However, if their system has not updated to show the fee, or even if it has updated, and you include the payment of a late fee, whether your payment is made electronically, by mailed in check, or via online banking, they apply it to the principal, unless you call them and tell them to apply the "overpayment" to the late fee. If you don't do this they continue to accumulate your late fees. Does that seem fair or logical to anyone, or does it seem like a big company purposefully using a policy to line their pockets at the expense of their customer. Then they tell the customer they are protecting them. They hide behind the fact they want to see your payment go to the principal while they are stabbing you in the back with accumulated late fee charges. There is something very wrong with this business practice. If they can justify their behavior with this policy, I certainly would not be inclined to trust Chase in other matters. Unfortunately, not to long ago opened another type of account with them. Would it not improve their service and company esteem to apply payments for the benefit of the customer, without requiring a phone call.
Anonymous on 07/21/2007:
Fed up with Chase auto finance I agree with you and it does seem like a big company purposefully using a policy to line their pockets at the expense of their customer. They really don't care about customers and they get away with it because:
1. The answers you see above, people fall for anything.
2. The Government does NOT do their job and regulate these people; in fact they can do anything they want!
Again this was written about long time ago:
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
-Thomas Jefferson
Anonymous on 08/13/2007:
If you want to complain about Chase Manhattan Bank, send a written letter via certified return receipt to: Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, Consumer Affairs Department, 1301 McKinney Street, Suite 3450, Houston, Texas, 77010-9050, Tel: 800-613-6743. Also, send a written complaint to your State Attorney Generals Office, Attn: Consumer Affairs.
zugy on 10/12/2007:
I have a similar event in progress. Check my story. Chase retaliates for me closing two credit card accounts and refuses payment on my Auto loan......
zugy on 10/12/2007:
I just wanted to add that I have never been late on any payment including the Auto Loan.
Chase Retaliates for me closing two credit card accounts a couple days before I sent in my monthly Auto payment.
They claim they never received my monthly payment by U.S.postal service. What a bunch of B.S. I paid again on the phone they charged me $15 to do that yet no payment has been processed. That's two Auto payments. Now when I call they say my Auto Loan does not Exist!!!
Chase: I will never do business with you ever again and will tell everyone about this experience! P.S. I will pay off what I owe in full tomorrow through a representative at my own Bank on the phone conferenced to witness your B.S..Just to get rid of you!!!!!!!
will827 on 10/03/2008:
I have many credit cards from different banks throughout the years. I have an EXCELLENT credit score with all of my credit reports.
I took an emergency trip and came back with my Chase credit card due in 2 days, so I paid for the entire balance through my bank's online banking. I guess I missed the cutoff time for that business day, and for Chase, takes 2 business days to process instead of the usual 1 (the next business day) with my other cards. Then they charged me a late fee.
I understand that they charged me a late fee due to THEIR business practice, but when I called and spoke with their customer service rep to waive the late fee, they had to transfer me to a so-called manager, who then told me that it was a legit charge, because they have many avenues of paying for the card. First of all, if I were to pay over the phone while I was traveling, they were going to charge me $15 as their "service fee" anyway.
What happened to customer gesture? What happened to customer service? I guess Chase's business is doing that bad that they have to charge every single penny to all of their loyal customers to survive.
Since that incident, I have paid my balance in full, and I will never use their card EVERY AGAIN! They will NOT make a single penny from me from now on!
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Auto Loan Payoff
Posted by
GARDEN CITY, OREGON -- My first auto loan payment was due 2/11/2013. I sent Chase a check for $29,000 which arrived on 2/9/2013 and was posted by Chase on 2/11/2013. In the past, 18 days, I have received 2 letters and conducted 2 phone calls because Chase said NO PAYMENT had been received and a $17.97 late fee had been assessed. How can this be? In this case, Chase's rules of handling & managing financial transactions make no economic sense. It appears the goal is to maximize revenue from the enforcement of fees.
Financial advisors highly recommend making additional loan payments toward the principal, with Chase, there is no early pay-off penalty, just a late fee.
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trmn8r on 03/03/2013:
Oh, I see now. For whatever reason, your first "payment" was going to be paying the loan off entirely.
You say that their rules makes no [] sense, but what was the actual explanation for the late fee and taking the position that the payment was not received?
DebtorBasher on 03/03/2013:
Dispute this with them, send them your proof that the payment was posted on the 11th. But, don't be surprised if they posted it AFTER the time of day that it was due. For example, if they say it was due on 2/11 by 3pm...they may have posted it after 3pm and considered it late. Yes, they WILL do that!
I worked for Chase and as I advise everyone...if you have ANYTHING with the name CHASE on it...be it your mortgage, car, credit or banking...get rid of it as fast as you can and RUN...RUN...RUN as far away from Chase as you can and never look back!
DebtorBasher on 03/03/2013:
OK, now that I read 8er, 8er, my 8er's comment, I realize they told you it wasn't received at all...so, it wasn't the case of them having it and posting it later that day. So, send them the proof you have that it was posted and dispute the late fees and tell them to report it to your credit report as 'PIF' and 'Never Late'.
Jeff on 03/03/2013:
Apparently, people on this site like to pick on posters. Rather than give any reasonable help, they would rather argue with the poster. I for one, think that Chase probably purposely "misplaced" the check in hopes to maximize their profits from you, since paying it completely off defeats their purpose of making money from interest off of you. Good review.
DebtorBasher on 03/03/2013:
Jeff...I'm not seeing where anyone is picking on the poster. 8er asked the poster a legit question, and I advised them to drop Chase because I worked for them and I know what goes on behind the scenes when it comes to their customers and it isn't a pretty picture.
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Chase Auto Dishonest About Holding Their Contractors Responsible
Posted by
GARDEN CITY, NEW YORK -- I have been working with Chase Auto Finance since August 2011, and paying faithfully on the first of every month. When I went into the hospital I fell behind and next thing I knew On March 26th 2012 at 1:45 A.M. they illegally had their agent "drive a vehicle onto real property belonging to, and lawfully occupied by another and known to not be open to the general public, without the consent of the owner, the owner's agent, or the person in lawful possession [me]," a direct violation of California Penal Code 602 (n). In other words they committed a crime to repossess the car from me. (I have a video of this action)
I was able to file a police report and have a video of these man even driving down the street the wrong way to sneak into the gate. They violated several California laws.
I received a letter from Kevin [snip], Executive Specialist. He stated "Chase requires their contractors to follow all laws..."
However, that is not the case as they have allowed this repo company to charge an $440. illegal repo fee to me, and have not supported me in having it returned to me.
Most people believe repossession people can "break the law" to get a car - not in California. Chase is supporting their law breaking.
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clutzycook on 04/17/2012:
So you were behind on your payment and they repo'd your vehicle? Was your vehicle outside a building or was it inside? If it was just parked on the drive, I believe they can drive up and tow it off. California's laws are a little different than my state's so I'm not sure if it truly was illegal or not. I would imagine that if it was illegal, repo people would have a much harder time reclaiming items, but I'm not sure. Can anyone else verify the OP's belief that this is indeed illegal?
JISCal2 on 04/17/2012:
If you were able to file a police report then the DA will determine whether or not charges will be filed. I'm interested to see how this one plays out.
traceylynn on 04/17/2012:
So you didn't pay and they took your car and you are mad? You had to know that was going to happen. If you don't pay they can and will take your car. Not only that but if you hide the car they can have you charged with a felony. Also Chase is the 'owner' not you.......at least not until the car is paid in full. Which may very well have impact on that law you have provided.
Cwazychicken on 04/18/2012:
This is why you should not take a loan on a car and not pay it off asap. in sd, if you do not pay, they come and take it away.
I am sorry you were in the hospital but isn't there any way a family member could've helped you out in paying it off for you? Maybe not, but not sure what else to suggest.
popcorn soup on 04/18/2012:
Are you really sure it's theft?
If they possess the title then wouldn't the car legally be theirs?
Pressing charges against them, trying to accuse them of theft could in fact go against you since they have a legal right to take the car back for non-payment.
And trying to "hide" the car to prevent them from reclaiming their property may land you in legal trouble.
I too would like to see how this plays out.
maybe it's me but... on 04/18/2012:
since the letters get forwarded to the companies.... you've just pretty much told Chase that you purposefully tried to prevent them from taking back the car after you stopped making payments.
this might not have the effect you're thinking it will. in fact it might actually work against you if anything.
Kitty on 04/18/2012:
I'm confused - are you in California or New York?
CowboyFan on 04/18/2012:
The Op says he was in lawful possession of the place where the car was located. This would make the repossession even more proper, since I would imagine the finance contract allows them to come onto the debtor's property to reposses the vehicle, and certainly, no court is going to expect a creditor to obtain permission from a debtor to simply drive on their property to get the vehicle.
Section 602(n) is simply a trespass statute. A review of the law summaries indicates that while repossession companies cannot physically break into buildings or bust the locks off gates, they otherwise can come onto property and take back the vehicle.
Finally, California Penal Code 154 which makes it a misdemeanor or felony (depending on value) to conceal property from creditors.
From the limited information we have here, it would appear the repossession company acted properly.
Anonymous on 04/18/2012:
This was not an illegal repossession, the California penal codes cited do not apply to this situation. I suggest the OP refer to the California Vehicle Code to determine what laws, if any, the repossession company broke. Based on what the OP has stated, the repo company did not break any vehicle codes either.
o my on 04/18/2012:
So if anything... the OP might actually be getting herself into *more* trouble by pressing false charges on the repo men.
And since those charges are public information, chase can use them against her in court if they so choose.
she may have really opened a can of worms on this one.
Nohandle on 04/18/2012:
I don't know anything about CA laws but by golly in my state if you don't pay they can darn sure pick it up if they have the title. An employee woke up one morning and discovered his vehicle missing from his property and immediately called the police. By noon that day the truth had come out. His wife had gotten the title to his paid off vehicle and gone to one of those pawn your title and receive money outfits. She obviously ignored their calls for payment and didn't think they would do anything. She found out differently. THEY WILL GET THE CAR.
trmn8r on 04/18/2012:
If the repo company broke some motor vehicle laws like driving the wrong way on a street, maybe the police can cite them based on evidence. Other than that, repo companies can pretty much do what they want without breaking stuff (eg locks, gates) to get the property of the bank. Chase is protecting its assets here.
i'm in the state of insanity on 04/18/2012:
Although... according to this review the OP is in "Garden City, NY" - not California.
Anonymous on 04/18/2012:
Chase Auto Finance has a location in Garden City NY. The OP is most likely in CA and sends her car payment to NY.
even so on 04/22/2012:
even so, it's not illegal to repo
Jim Martin on 04/23/2012:
For more info on this case visit:
sharonstephens.1 on 04/23/2012:
I have posted this question in several places, Ripoff Report. etc. NO ONE SEEMS TO KNOW CALIFORNIA LAW -- SO, HERE IT IS:
1. I live in a subsidized, secured and gated, private (obviously not public) senior apartment building in California. One must have a transponder to open the gates, and keys to enter the door into the building.I must have a parking pass to park in a designated parking space. The property is fenced all the way around. I have lived here for more than a year.
3. On both gates: one is an Entry gate, the other is an Exit gate are large, well marked with âPRIVATE PARKING;â NO TRESPASSING â Violators Will Be Prosecutedâ and other relevant signs. The exit gate is clearly marked EXIT ONLY! I have taken photos of both gates.
4. In California an apartment complex is almost always private property, with or without a gate or fence, owned by the landlord, or jointly if they are condos. There are no dedicated ways for emergency vehicles WHICH MEANS IT IS DEFINITELY PRIVATE apartments owned by A PRIVATE PARTY.
5. As a private cALIFORNIA community we are protected under the trespass statue: Penal Code 610(n) "Driving any vehicle, as defined in Section 670 of the Vehicle Code, upon real property belonging to, or lawfully occupied by, another and known not to be open to the general public, without the consent of the owner, the ownerâs agent, or the person in lawful possession." Even if the gate is open they cannot drive onto the private property without permission.
NO PERMISSION -- NO ENTRY! IF one goes through an "open gate" and drives on the property without permission it is a "breach of the peace"
6. Courts have long held that a repossession company may not enter a secure area to repossess collateral as that is a "breach of the peace" Henderson v. Security Nat. Bank, 72Cal. App. 3d 784 (1977) -- "if [the creditor finds that he cannot get possession without committing a breach of the peace he must stay his hand and resort to the law..."
7. CA Bus & Professions Code 7508.2 (g) Unlawfully entering any private building or secured area without the consent of the owner, or of the person in legal possession thereof, at the time of repossession. The fine shall be five hundred dollars ($500) for each violation.) (Actually they can lose their license.)
8. Conversion Law has to do with the processor -- NOT the owner,
.e.g., I am the processor of the car and therefore anything done
against the car is done against me and it is the same as if I am the owner. If
the car is stolen, it is me who is the victim â not Chase. I am a renter, the processor on private secured property it is the same as if I am the owner. If one comes onto this property and commits and crime it is as if I am the owner and I have the right to prosecute them. The criminal counterpart of conversion is theft.
9. Wrongful Repossession = Grand Theft Auto in California (Penal Code 487) if you break into a locked car, and take it from a secured private property. (They admitted they did not use a key but "broke into the car.)
10. Among other things, the consumer can sue for violations of the California and Federal Fair Debt Collection laws because they both preclude repossession of collateral when there is no present legal right to do so. There is no present right to repossess property when it would result in a breach of the peace on private property.
A consumer who prevails on a claim under the California or Federal Fair Debt Collection laws can recover actual damages (including the value of the car), statutory damages and his or her attorneysâ fees and costs.(I have two pro bono consumer affaIRS attorneys. WE ARE GOING TO SUE.
In this day and age there needs to be more willingness to work with people -- I paid $9,000 down on this car.
Alain on 04/23/2012:
JIScal is right. The police report has been filed and the District Attorney will make a determination as to what laws are applicable. When that determination is made and responsibility for the actions assigned, Chase will have to abide by it.
CowboyFan on 04/27/2012:
So, the OP lives in welfare (subsidized) apartments with a gate around the complex as a RENTER. He is not the owner and does not have exclusive possession of the outdoor areas; having at most a right to use these areas at the discretion of the landlord.
Does the OP expect us to believe that FedEx or any other delivery company has to call ahead of time to get "permission" to enter the complex or it is a trespass? Of course not. This just proves that people on legitimate business are permitted to enter the complex, without having received express permission and not being subject to arrest.
One can almost guarantee that the loan argreement says the lender can come on the debtor's property to repossess the car. This is all that occurred. The case the OP cited to, I believe, referred to one where they broke the lock on a garage door to get to the car, which is an entirely different situation than one from taking a vehicle sitting in a parking lot.
The OP appears to be diverting the focus from the fact the payments were behind, to the behavior of the repossessor. The fact that the police did not act indicates the OP's interpretation of the law is not correct.
yep you got it on 05/17/2012:
Cowboy - I think you hit the nail on the head
The OP seems quick to post laws when she thinks they're in her favor, but what about the laws pertaining to debts?
Those laws exist too. And it's why they are legally allowed to take back property you are not paying for.
Sharon on 07/12/2012:
YEP! Just got a call from California Bureau of Security and Investigative Services! They had a lot to say about illegal trespass in California on private property and breach of the peace. They are sendinG me a letter, where she confirmed mine was just that!ILLEGAL TRESPASS.A consumer can assert several claims when his or her car is repossessed from a gated and locked garage. Among other things, the consumer can sue for violations of the California and federal fair debt collection laws because they both preclude repossession of collateral when there is no present right to do so. There is no present right to repossess property when it would result in a breach of the peace. A consumer who prevails on a claim under the California or federal fair debt collection laws can recover actual damages (including the value of the car), statutory damages and his or her attorneys' fees and costs.
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Chase Withdrawal Money Out of My Bank Account w/o Permission
Posted by
In hard times I did a voluntary repo (for the first time). I received a letter 11/07/09 stating they sold the vehicle 10/24/09 & remaining balance was $4838. On 11/10/09 Chase Auto took out $3800 from my banking account. I was so shocked & could not pay all my bills. They have been nothing but rude to me & the person in charge of my account spoke over me & didn't want to hear anything I had to say, it was a waste of energy. That person even went so far as to have all my Chase credit card limits all be dropped down to about nothing... even though I had never been late on them, 2 of the cards had $0 balances, and the other I have been making the payments on time, the whole time. He just wanted to make sure I had no way to make it. The money he took out of the bank was 2 loans I got to try to pay bills & part of my child support, I am a single mom with 2 kids & don't know how I am going to pay all my bills now, I can't even pay on the loan now. I am in a horrible position & Christmas is next month. I feel so horrible for my kids & I am just trying to do the best I can with what I have now. I don't understand why they handled things so ugly. I had my Chase bank account for 18 years (when it was Bank One), and I never had issues till now. I was paying early on the vehicle for almost 3 years. I just couldn't afford all the repairs, I had already charged a lot of repairs (still owing that) & it needed a lot more repairs. I couldn't afford it. I hated giving up that veicle but I didn't know what else to do since I don't have help with any bills. I had to make a choice & Chase made sure to let me know it was the worst mistake of my life. I still don't think I should have been treated so horrible & I don't think they should have just went in & cleaned me out not carring what happened to the person they are taking it from, or even worse, the kids they just made suffer.
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Anonymous on 11/22/2009:
It is called a deficiency balance and legally you owed it. Repoes, voluntary or not does not negate your liability to the debt. Also, in your agreement with Chase they do stipulate that if you owe them money they will take it.
goduke on 11/23/2009:
What a rought spot. LadyScot is right, that they have the right (and ability) to tag other accounts you have with them. It's all in the fine print. They also look at your credit with them as a whole, which is why they have now dropped all of your credit card accounts to nil. They're theory is that if you couldn't pay the car, you probably can't pay the credit cards (it's not an entirely bad theory).
You may have to help your kids understand that Christmas isn't about gifts and stuff, which is a lesson they'll likely carry with them for the rest of their lives. For Christmas this year, you might want to take them to work in a soup kitchen, or volunteer at a pet shelter, and show them that Christmas really is about giving to others and taking care of each other. Just a thought.
Hope it all works out for you.
tnchuck100 on 11/23/2009:
Yes, they had a legal right to take the money. But I agree with you they were totally out of line for doing it this way. It appears you gave them no reason to believe you would not take care of the deficiency. They could. They did. They stink!
To avoid situation like this do not finance things at the same bank you have your money accounts.
goduke on 11/23/2009:
Most excellent advice, chuck.
grandma005 on 11/23/2009:
You should have opened up a new Bank account elsewhere and deposited your loan checks there. Sure, they would have put an 11 day hold on it, but at least Chase would not have been able to touch the money.
JR in Orlando on 11/23/2009:
The bank was not out of line to do this, after you in effect told them I can't afford to pay my bills. Good intentions does not pay the bank off.
I agree with TNchuck, however, that if you are in these kind of situations, you need to be in a "cash" position or have accounts with other banks. Next time do that in preparation, before you do the voluntary repo. Good Luck
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Chase Auto Loan Interest Rip-off
Posted by
In August of 2004, I purchased a new car. I put $5000.00 down, and financed 47,676.58 through Chase Bank for 84 months at 8.19% interest. I did this because I knew that my goal was to pay the loan off early. I paid my payments of $747.59 on time without a single late payment for 62 months. I paid the vehicle off on payment #63. after doing some calculations off of my payment history, I found that I was only $1500.00 away from paying the full contracted 84 months amount of the loan with 21 months residual. I called Chase about this, and was told that was normal calcuation of interest. I paid off a auto loan for another vehicle 2 yrs earlier with substansial savings in interest payments because of paying it off early. Obviuosly the same rules don't apply to Chase Bank. Turns out that during the early payments of the loan, Chase applied $200-300.00 of the monthly payments to interest, not principal. This in my opinion is done to get their interest early in the life of the loan, rather that divided in equal parts for the 84 months. The total interest paid for this vehicle was $17,535.43. Add that to the amount financed and it comes to $65212.01. The total payments per contract was 62797.56. Which means not only was I not getting any savings for paying it off early, But that I also was overcharged another $2414.45. PLEASe, please, PLEASE, Do not Finance an auto loan with Chase Bank. Not only did they lose a future auto loan customer, they also lost a bank client. I'm banking elsewhere.
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Anonymous on 10/11/2009:
I believe that most auto loans are calculated this same way. It most certainly had to have been on your agreement.
tnchuck100 on 10/11/2009:
Sounds like you need to understand how interest is applied to a loan. Yes, the majority of the interest occurs early in the loan. In your case the first payment took $325.39 in interest. The balance on the loan at payment #64 would have been $14,580.41. That is assuming all payments were on time and no other penalties are involved. At this point in the loan you were paying ~$100 per month in interest. Pay off at this point saved you ~$1020 in interest.
Use this link and plug in your numbers and see your amortization schedule.
MaggieMcT on 10/11/2009:
Yep. My credit union shows me all this on-line for my current car loan. Every month, the amount of interest I'm paying goes down a bit, and the amount of principal I'm paying goes up.
Anonymous on 10/11/2009:
And this is actually far more consumer friendly than the way banks used to do it. (the rule of 78ths)
Anonymous on 10/11/2009:
They discovered that applying interest this way doesn't have lose anything in the event a loan is paid off early.
Anonymous on 10/11/2009:
And OP, had you made an extra payment of $50-75 each month (in a separate check with Principal on it) you would have ended up paying it off much sooner and saved MORE.
You still saved over a grand. Exactly what is the complaint? Your mortgage is set up much the same way. Interest is paid first. (My mom's house was a 30 year note. She paid it off in 13 years by paying 3 extra payments a year.)
Anonymous on 10/11/2009:
Actually, that would be justnotthefaxx:
The standard loan is called "simple interest". You borrow some money and at the end of the period you pay it back plus interest. For longer term loans, you make periodic payments. With some consumer loans, especially with auto loans, you may encounter a different type of loan which mentions the "Rule of 78". It is a different way of deciding how much of each monthly payment is interest and how much is principal.
If you don't terminate the loan early, simple interest loans and Rule of 78 loans will be equivalent. You will pay the same amount and get the interest rate quoted. However, if you pay off the loan early, you will end up paying more interest with a Rule of 78 loan than with the corresponding "simple interest" loan. For that reason, you should not take loans computed on the "Rule of 78".
Here is a simple auto loan with round numbers:
Amount of loan: $10,000
Interest rate: 12% a year (which is 1% a month)
Length of loan: 1 year (12 months)
Simple interest says that after one month has gone by, you have borrowed the $10,000 for 1/12 of a year and you own interest of 12%/12 or 1% which is $100. The rest of your payment goes to decreasing the principal.
The next month you have borrowed $9211.51 for a month and own $92.12 in interest. After paying the interest, the rest of your payment goes to pay off the principal you borrowed.
Figuring out the payments for a simple interest loan is a job for a loan calculator. In our example, it says that the monthly payment is $888.49.
Over the life of the loan you will pay $661.85 in interest.
On the last payment you make, you will have borrowed $879.67 for one month and owe $8.80 in interest. Notice that your final payment is almost all repayment of principal.
If you look at each interest payment, it decreases each month. If you graphed the monthly interest payments, they would form a slight curve.
Almost all auto loans are simple interest loans, and in some states they are the only types allowed by law.
MRM on 10/11/2009:
Thanks, Ken, I learn something new, everyday!...
Anonymous on 10/11/2009:
And that the very best we can all hope for MRM
FireCapt on 10/13/2009:
I guess I thought the savings would have been a bit more than $1000. since I paid off the vehicle 22 months early. When I paid off my other car early, I saved big bucks in interest. But if this is the normal thing now, I guess I won't be financing cars anytime soon. I'll just save up and buy it out right.
Anonymous on 10/13/2009:
Fire, it depends on the terms of the contract.. Each one is different. :)
Just curious, are you a Fire House Captain?
FireCapt on 10/15/2009:
Lady Scot , Yes I am. Here a "kicker" for ya folks. I just checked to see if my final payment posted in their site. It did, however, now my account shows me past due, and the due date of the loan was changed to 12/05/1999. I didn't even have a chase account til I purchased this vehicle. This is a bank,right? One of the so called pillars of American Finance? I'm probably going to retain an attorney. This smells too bad.
Anonymous on 10/15/2009:
Fire, my husband is also a Fire Captain. Volunteer or paid? Just curious. Thank you for your service to your community at any rate.
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Don't get Auto Loan from Chase
Posted by
COLORADO -- I have a business with 4 Ford vehicles. All are financed from Ford except one is from Chase. Ford financing has been excellent. Chase decided to (unknown to us) to stop sending monthly statements and issue quarterly statements. We have yet to receive one. Of course our accountant has been missing payments because there are no statements. According to the chase customer service people, monthly statements are a curtesy and their policy has changed so now they don't send them out. It is a way to facilitate late payments from customers and get late fees. And, they don't send you a late statement, they just flood your phone lines with phone calls. Vote with your dollar, and do not use CHASE for any banking! CHASE is running one of the biggest banking scams and this should it should be illegal.
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MSCANTBEWRONG on 09/30/2009:
You may want to consider refinancing with someone else.
MRM on 09/30/2009:
As DB would say, "RUN AWAY FROM CHASE!"
spiderman2 on 09/30/2009:
Also, if your accountant can't figure out they need to pay an auto loan every month, even if for some reason they don't get a statement, you should probably find a new accountant.
Anonymous on 09/30/2009:
You may want another accountant. If he knows your monthly obligations, bill or not, he should pay it unless you tell him not to.
Business bills are no different than personal ones. You know you owe. Pay, bill or not. And Chase is right. Statements are a courtesy, not a right.
Had Enough of Chase on 07/21/2011:
Biggest SCAM out there !! I paid off my lease with Chase, and PAID the final bill for the "disposition fee" and residual taxes involved as well as stated to me by the customer service rep. I was connected with at the time. Then this SAME Jim Simpson guy who was mentioned in a prior complaint decides it's not enough, and has been HOUNDING me ever since ! He's got a serious problem, and if HE doesn't back off, I am going to report HIM to the state attorney general's office for CONSUMER FRAUD !!
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The epitome of idiocy and useless customer service
Posted by
FT. WORTH, TX -- CHASE AUTO FINANCE - These people have to be some of the biggest idiots I have ever had the misfortue of dealing with and as an ex Chase emlpoyee I can tell you I have seen a lot of stupidity. This last event really shows how ridiculously stupid and worthless Chase's customer service is.
I recently moved from Washington State to Oregon. I went in to the Oregon DMV, had a VIN inspection, emmissions test at DEQ, all the hoops to change my vehicle from Washington to Oregon. With all the forms and necessary paperwork in hand from ODMV and my final instructions to send the packet of forms to Chase for final processing I headed to the post office. I wrote a letter to Chase informing them that I had moved and asking them to update my address and process the paperwork from the ODMV. Chase had two simple tasks, change my address in their system and send the title to Oregon DMV so that Oregon could issue a new title back to them. Do you think they could do this? NO ... instead they send me a letter. Here is what they wrote:
We're writing you regarding the above referenced vehicle.
Unfortunately, we are unable to complete the request for state change because we do not have your current Oregon address.
As I read this I about fell out of my chair. Seriously? You don't have my Oregon address? Here is this complete moron whose name I will not mention, (Title Research Representative, DSR089) sitting at his desk with my request to change my address, all the DMV paperwork with my new address, and he tells me he can't process the request because he doesn't have my current Oregon address. I expect stupidity from Chase and not much surprises me with them but this really goes beyond stupid. This is just an idiot who was to lazy to do there job for whatever reason.
My suggestion to anyone who does not have a car loan with Chase is DON'T!!! Do whatever you can to keep from doing business with these people.
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Anonymous on 06/16/2009:
Just another reason to use a local credit union.
Anonymous on 06/16/2009:
If you are going to call someone the "epitimy of idiocy" you probably ought to learn to spell epitome, lest the comment reflect back on you.
MSCANTBEWRONG on 06/16/2009:
Regardless of how he spelled it, the guy had to be a total moron...for Pete's sake...he's sending a rejection letter to the new address stating he doesn't have the new address and it's on the DMV paperwork!! Reply to his letter with these words...HERE'S YOUR SIGN!!
DebtorBasher on 06/16/2009:
Yup...Like I said, anything that has Chase's name on it...run...run...ruuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnn....!!!
Anonymous on 06/16/2009:
XChaseEmployee on 06/16/2009:
Thank you for your response KenPopcorn .... I must have missed that one with spell check. Your comment is interesting because it helps prove a point. You focus on the spelling of a word as opposed to the issue. The Chase employee held his focus on the fact my address was not in the system. Even though it was right in front of him in all the documentation and the written request from me .... interesting isn't it? Do you work for JPMC?
Anonymous on 06/16/2009:
Not at all. I merely point out that it doesn't serve your cause to be name calling. It turns a legitimate complaint into a rant. By doing that, you make yourself lesslikely to be taken seriously.
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The wait is over everybody. I'm back from Colombia, and I must say that I was flattered by the large number of people who came out to the airport to greet me. You really shouldn't have...although I'm glad you did. After such a trip, it's only logical that I'm bursting with stories that I'll be sharing with you over the next few weeks or even months. After all, it was Colombian writer Grabriel Garcia Marquez who titled his autobiography "Living To Tell The Tale", so who am I to disagree? As always my time in Bogota was both fun and eventful. As such, many memorable moments were had during my travels. Here are just a few mental snapshots of my trip:
Riding a borrowed bike over the recently covered-up crater left by a car bomb one day earlier.
Riding the same borrowed bike through a mass of hundreds of riot police as they prepared to take on anti-bullfighting protestors.
Eating three times my weight in fried plantains. In two days.
Being measured by an elderly frame maker in the same contraption as three Colombian presidents and one Formula 1 driver.
Having that same kind and elderly frame maker accompany me to the bank while I withdrew the small down payment for a custom frame. His reason for coming with me? So that I wouldn't get robbed on my way out of the bank.
Meeting a few of Colombia's cycling greats, and hearing one of them say "That's me with Fausto Coppi", as he quickly flipped through a stack of old pictures.
Hearing a description of how you can get unlicensed emeralds onto a plane by putting them inside the top tube of your bike. This description was stated in the past tense, and was part of a story...so don't get any ideas about my reasons for traveling to Colombia.
Seeing numerous new, unopened boxes of 1960's and 1970's Campagnolo parts, and then realizing that as much as I honor the sport's past, once I start buying that stuff...I'll be on my way to becoming one of those people that does Civil War re-enactments in period garb.
So while I sort through all the memories of this latest trip, allow me to tell you about yet another thing that I thought about during my travels to/from Colombia. Today's story goes a little something like this:
As I settled into my seat on the flight back from Bogota a couple of days ago, I closed my eyes in an attempt to drown out the sound of the chatty American missionaries behind me. As is usually the case for those of us with above-average intelligence, such pensive moments are usually spent contemplating life's big questions. On that day, the big question swirling around in my head was this:
Why is coffee so tied in to cycling?
Look, I know what you're probably thinking. You're probably thinking that that is not one of life's big questions, and that as a Colombian citizen I should probably know the answer to it. You're probably also wondering why I'm so short, and why the New York Times always uses such unflattering pictures of Greg Lemond, and why my wife is watching every single episode of Dynasty online (particularly when we all know that Dallas was way better). Well, allow me to answer your questions one at a time.
Question number one, coffee and cycling:
I know that this is not one of life's big questions, but can we both just pretend it is so that the premise of this post doesn't seem so flawed?
Question number two, why am I so short:
Why are you asking me why I'm short, let me ask you...why are you damn tall? Everyone knows that road bikes look their best when their size is in the low 50's, its not my fault that yours looks like a stretched out monstrosity made out of tent poles.
Question number three, NY Times and Lemond's unflattering pictures:
The reason why The New York Times uses unflattering pictures of Greg Lemond has to do with a longstanding conspiracy against celebrities that were ever spokespersons for purveyors of fourth rate, pseudo-Mexican food.
Question number four, why does my wife watch Dynasty:
I wish I knew. Seriously. I can't figure this one out.
With those pressing issues out of the way, let's get back to the bigger question, the only one that I feel I can safely tackle in this forum: Why is it that cycling in the United States is so connected to coffee? Why do cyclists have their own blends of coffee? Why does the US cycling federation sell coffee? Why do group rides begin at coffee shops? I ask this partially because that's simply not the case in Colombia. In Colombia, one of biggest coffee producing nations in the world, coffee (particularly within the context of cycling) is but an afterthought. Do people drink coffee before they ride? I guess some people do, but many also go to the bathroom before they ride, and toilet paper is not a crucial part of "cycling culture" because of it. For god's sake, even the concept of "cycling culture" doesn't even exist in Colombia...so I'm still having trouble understanding all this. Sure, there's the fact that coffee has caffeine, and that can be good for riding your bike. Rides also often take place early in the morning, and that's when many people drink coffee. I also think that perhaps many people who ride bikes in places like the United States are so obsessed with Italian cycling culture, that they try to emulate every aspect of it, including small cultural details that have little to do with cycling...like Italian's taste for coffee.
Maybe, just maybe, in some cases cyclist's love for coffee has to do with the famed Cafe De Colombia team, but I doubt it. I mean, Quick Step has been a sponsor of a cycling team for many years, and I have yet to see local cyclists go (Lady) ga-ga over their new Sculptique™ laminate collection, regardless of how realistic its Earthen Maple finish is. So while I'm aware of the fact that I have above average intelligence (an online IQ test told me so), I have to say that I'm at a loss as to why people who ride road bikes here in the US (and perhaps other places) see such a connection between cycling and coffee. Perhaps it's just as simple as people liking the taste of that foul beverage...but the sheer percentage of cyclists who drink, talk about, and idolize coffee is completely disproportionate. It almost seems so random that it could be replaced by anything else. Why can't the connection be between cycling and say, eating papayas, or gargling with Marshmallow Fluff?
While I'm at it, I think I should also mention that I fail to see the strong connection between cycling and beer...but I guess I can blame that on the Belgians too (as I often do). I must also admit that since I don't drink either coffee or beer, I'm rather unqualified to give a ruling on either issue...and yet I'm writing a whole post about this. But I guess not knowing about something has never stopped me from writing about it, cycling in general being a prime example of that. Still, since I was born and raised in Colombia, I feel that I'm entitled to act as an authority on the matter. And I will. So I will now tell you from intimate knowledge how nearly every single Colombian citizen drinks their coffee, so that if you must drink the stuff...you'll at least drink it properly. The rich and the poor, the young and the old...they all drink their coffee in Colombia in the exact same way. So from this day forth, I hereby order that all cyclists who are obsessed with coffee drink theirs in the same manner as all Colombians do, which is the following:
Boil one cup of milk (or soy milk)
Once it boils, add one spoonful of instant coffee and two of sugar. Stir.
If you're a coffee snob, and you're going to complain about how instant coffee sucks...just remember: I'm from Colombia. I know about these things. You're not from Colombia, so you don't. Look, chances are that you're drinking coffee in the way that you do, and in the quantities that you do because of Italians...so why not prepare it in the way that Colombians do? Trust me. I'm an expert.


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The first thing you'll notice about this game is that the graphics are amazing! The Ultimate Ninja Storm series has always been the most dazzling Naruto game on the market, and this one's no exception. The cel-shaded graphics and fluid movement continue to blur the line between video games and anime. The second thing you'll notice is the whooping character roster! A full 70+ playable characters and 15 support characters! If there's a fighting game with more playable characters, I can't think of it.
The gameplay is everything you've come to love about the series. Fast-paced battles full of intense combos, over-the-top super moves and the trademark of this fighting engine—substitutions. Speaking of turning into a log when someone hits you, substitutions are no longer tied to chakra—they have their own bar. You start out with four, then the bar slowly recharges. This is a major improvement to the battle system and should slow down abuse of this mechanism.
One fairly big change to the combat system is the ability to chain combos together by chakra dashing mid-combo and switching to a different one. If your opponent is unable to break your attacks, you can seriously rack up the combos.
And for fans of the anime, there are a ton of new animations in this game! Over an hour according to the Namco Bandai rep, and some of it was absolutely mind-blowing. Seeing the epic fight between Madara and Hashirama Senju certainly tickled my inner fanboy. And it was really long—a full 5+ minutes of animation courtesy of Studio Pierrot.
Gamers should be pleased with the bevy of modes in the game. You can fight one-on-one without teammates in the Single Battle, or bring two support characters in for a Team Match. There's a survival mode where you fight waves of foes with just one health bar. And you can set up 8-player tournaments locally and online. You can also record your matches and upload them to the server for others to watch. And since players are ranked globally, you can watch matches of high-ranked players to see their strategies.
There's also some crossover with the Naruto Collectible Card Game. In the Custom Battle Mode, you fight other gamers with their own Ninja Info Card. Each card has an element (Fire, Wind, Water, Lightning, Earth), and whoever has the winning element gets the bonus listed on the card during the battle. Each copy of the game will have a card inside, but different retailers have different cards.
Like the other Ninja Storm games, what makes this one great is it's easy to tell the people working on it love Naruto. That kind of love permeates everything throughout the game from the 70+ character roster, all the way down to the tiniest details. I've always considered this series the Cadillac of Naruto video games, and this year's model is looking good. The game launches March 13, 2012, and demos should be hitting PSN and Xbox 360 later this month.
For more info about this game, click here!
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