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ATL: 6" 03-09 Dodge Ram 3500 Atlas Rear Leaf Springs (Set)
Product Classification:
Leaf Springs
MFG Part #:
This product fits the following vehicle(s):
2003-2009|Dodge|Ram 3500
Drivetrain (if applicable):
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Top Gun Customz is proud to bring you these great new 6" Rear Lift Leaf Springs from Atlas Spring Company for your 2003-2008 Dodge 3500. There is a difference in spring part numbers depending on if your truck is a 2500 or 3500. We offer these springs for both applications.
Atlas Spring Company, a family owned and operated business, was founded in August of 1991. Atlas started out as a small OEM leaf spring replacement and repair facility in the city of Industry, CA, serving only a local customer base. Gradually, over the years, their great reputation and service has built them a loyal cliental. Since then they've been offering custom and OEM manufactured leaf springs to wholesale, resale, and retail customers all over the United States and Canada!
Atlas Spring Company's performance and quality are unmatched in today's industry: All of their custom applications are 100% produced and fabricated in house , and each and every spring is hand-crafted and manufactured to more than meet their customers' needs, expectations, and satisfaction.
Kit Features:
Made in the USA using US steel
Durable & long lasting
Includes bushings
Handcrafted in-house
Tested in-house
Kit Contains:
(2) 6" Atlas Lift Springs
All Necessary Hardware
Shocks are not included in this kit: Read below for shock options.
Top Gun Customz - Standard Shipping Policy
- All standard shipping guaranteed with-in 10 business days. Upon recieving full payment. (Continental 48 states only)*
- We do not ship to P.O. Boxes.
- Additional shipping fees do apply to Alaska, Hawaii, and ALL other Countries within our shipping range. You MUST contact us prior to ordering, for an exact shipping quote or method to any destination outside the continental U.S. without a previously written shipping quote or method.
- Prior to beginning your install, please verify that you have received all items ordered.
- There is a 15% restocking fee on all uninstalled returns.
- No returns after 30 days.
- Top Gun Customz will not accept checks in any amount over $2,500.00. Any order totals that exceed this amount will have to be paid for by Money Order, Credit Card, Certified Bank Check, PayPal, or Cash at our business location.
- As Check Collect (Disclaimer): RETURNED CHECKS will be processed Electronically for check amount plus State allowed fees.
- Order cancellations before shipment will result in a minimum fee of 5% of total invoice to offset all processing fees. Other fees that may affect your cancellation are any eBay or Paypal fees associated with your purchase..
- **All drop-shipped items are subject to the policies and procedures set forth by the corresponding manufacturer of said products. (ie. If Rough Country drop-shipped the item that you purchased from us, and you decide to return it, it will need to be returned to Rough Country, and you will then incur all additional fees associated that are above and beyond our standard policies.)
*(Our guarantee is based on our ability to process orders in time for our couriers to ship items standard ground within the stated guarantee. Average processing time is within 10 business days from payment received to item received.) This is the time frame that we feel is acceptable for all deliveries within the continental U.S. Individual situations that extend delivery time past this guarantee may be reviewed with a member of our management.


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Kia recalls 145K Rondo, Optima models over airbag issues
by Zach Bowman (RSS feed) on Jan 20th, 2012 at 11:00AM
Kia has announced that it is recalling 145,000 vehicles to address faulty airbags. A total of 95,569 Optima sedans built between 2006 and 2008 and 50,186 Rondo MPVs built between 2007 and 2008 are included in the recall. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the vehicles may have been built with a clock spring in the steering column that may fatigue and break over time. As a result, the vehicles may illuminate the airbag warning light on the dash and the airbag may not deploy in the event of an accident. The automaker says that while it has received some warranty... Read More

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Products in the Portwest High Visibility Range category have been rated stars based on 16 reviews
Portwest's superior high visibility workwear garments deliver enhanced comfort and protection. Constructed from 80% Polyester and 20% Cotton with a satin weave and Texpel stain resistant finish. Weight 280g.
Workwear Express have a huge selection of Portwest workwear and clothing including high visibility clothing. Our range includes hi viz coats, hi viz overalls, hi viz clothing and more.


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Add some shine and sweet chic in simple slip-on flats by Umi. Beautifully crafted to German fit standards, with comfy leather uppers and linings plus glitter textile on the toe and heel. Flexible non-marking TPR outsoles; cushioned construction. Imported.
Runs big. Order the size your child measures on the European Shoe Ruler for a fit that includes room to grow. No need to size up if between sizes. Width is medium to wide.
Item # SW40582


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Verizon DSL Customer Service
Posted by
ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND -- As a consumer from your state, I felt it was my responsibility to bring to your attention the following incident.
I am writing to complain about the inadequate customer service and "run around" I received from Version DSL. On August, 28th 2006, my telephone service was switched from Spectrotel to Verizon at my request. (Spectrotel has slammed me and I requested that Verizon return to be my carrier). Since the switch to Verizon took place, my DSL service has not worked. From Monday, August 29th until September, 4th, 2006, I made numerous calls to Verizon regarding my, non-functioning DSL service. I spoke with several DSL tech support personnel and supervisors who appear to pass me from one department to another because they could not tell me why my service was not working. Finally, on Monday September 4th, 2006, Gina (tech number Z724336) supervisor told me that I would have canceled my current DSL service since I had new line with Verizon and re-order the service. I called and cancelled my service on September 5th, 2006 and was given an order ID number 127508168. I was also sent an e-mail by a Verizon customer service representative stating my start date for DSL would be September, 18th, 2006.
Monday September, 11th called to check the status of my order was told by customer service representative that the present order was in the system to be cancelled. I was told by a technical support supervisor that, to get DSL service I would have to cancel the present order and re-order service. On Thursday September 14th received call that my order had been cancelled and I can go ahead and re-order. I called Verizon and re-ordered service for DSL as soon as I received this call and the agent assured me it would go through. I received a call on Friday, 15th, Saturday, 16th and Monday18th, September, 2006 telling me that my old service has been cancelled and to got ahead and re-order my service. I called on Monday, 18th, September, 2006 and was told technical support supervisor that I already ordered my DSL service. I was told that it was not in the system and to call billing. I called billing on Tuesday, September, 19th, 2006 and was told that I will have to re-order my service since my order from last week. The order was in the system as a cancelled order. I called tech support several times afterwards and again like all the other times I have called I waited on the telephone for 45-75 minutes on the telephone to be assisted. I am still without DSL service and appear to be no resolution in-sight and I am not sure what to do at this point and a faithful Verizon customer.
As a resolution, I would like the following:
I would like that I be not charged any termination or cancellation fee or any other action recommended by the Attorney General' Office
Please contact me if you need more details regarding this incident.
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Valued Customers? on 09/27/2006:
I had similar experienced dealing with Verizon. I never even got my DSL set up, and finally after several hours on hold and being disconnected a couple times, I decided that instead of finding out what the hold up was, I was simply going to cancel and switch to Comcast. It took 1 1/2 hours to cancel my account, and the customer service representative kept insisting that I give her a reason for cancelling. When I gave her the reason she'd say "I understand what your saying ma'am, but what is your reason for cancelling?" As if she didn't understand why a month of waiting for service and hour long hold times consuming my days right off the bat wasn't reason enough!! Comcast has been great!
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Bank of America Online Banking fee fraud
Posted by
As a consumer from your state, I felt it was my responsibility to bring to your attention the following incident.
Bank of America knows that customers use online banking so as not to have to keep track of their paper receipts with a calculator. Clients depend on the accuracy of the balance shown online, and often check that balance on days that they make transactions. Bank of America (MD) Online banking purposefully does not show the true daily available balance on users� online statement. A posted transaction will appear instantly then disappear for a few days, fooling the user that the available balance shown is up to the minute or even the day. Then BOA allows (instead of denying) transactions to post based on the erroneous balance and simply charge overdraft fees, although it was their mistake in reporting the wrong balance.
So, BOA depends on being able to charge Huge overdraft fees racking up on Online Banking customers who depend on their online banking daily balance to be correct and accurate. Transactions that post on a certain day show up instantly, then the available balance listed is assumed to be just as instant. But, the following day, and days after, the transaction is no longer shown and the available balance has reverted, unbeknownst to the client, who feels free to use their debit card, without having a register, to track spending otherwise. Other online banking that I currently use, will show the transaction, and the available balance up to the minute and that available balance can be depended upon to be accurate and updated every day no matter how many transactions are posted and how many days pass.
Please do something about the dangerous practice that Bank of America has developed. Only people who can least afford it, will be financially harmed by it. Especially those of us who are accustomed to checking our online balance (sometimes several times a day) in order to stay within our debit card limit. If the online balance can no longer be relied upon, we might as well go back to checks and check registers, and check fees, etc. Other banks are doing it right, so should BOA.
I have contacted several CSA�s by phone and requested that Bank of America refund the fraudulent fees, but they have so far refused, saying that I should keep a register and that the online balance does not reflect �pending� transactions, even though they have already posted. I would like my monies refunded, and BOA punished for this fraud.
As a resolution, I would like the following:
I want all the fees they fraudulently took refunded to me and the account closed.
Please contact me if you need more details regarding this incident.
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sanford31031 on 06/23/2004:
I'm so glad that people can now go online and check their balance every 5 minutes. When working at a bank, the same people would come in everyday to get a printout and aggravate the hell out of us tellers. If what you say is true, BOA is wrong, but there is a thing called a register, use it! Keep up with your own balance and this will not happen.
elizzi2002 on 07/13/2004:
Whenever you make a debit card purchase that amount SUBTRACTS from your balance but does NOT post the same day! The debit will NOT post until that vendor requests payment from Bank of America. If they do not do so within a certain amount of time that debit hold will drop off the account, however, if you are keeping accurate track of your account you will know that you have already spent that money! It is your responsibility to know what you spend not BOA's! Do not rely on online banking, the balance a teller gives you or an ATM balance. Only YOU know your true balance because only YOU know where you have spent money.
Hockeman on 07/27/2004:
The two prior comments left are acurate but one sided... mabey BOA employees! Fees... I understand getting but $33.00 every time? I had a bill payment inadvertently go out and as a result my account was overdrafted 5 times for a total of $33.00 of small charges. It resulted in $165.00 worth of fees. Ridiculous!!!
trasmus on 12/30/2004:
We try to teach students in our school system the they are responsible for their actions. They, them, those, the person who performs the actions. You are responsible for checking your balance and keeping your register. You are responsible for knowing what you have in the bank. You. You. You. Quit blaming a bank for your error. If you want to keep your account at a level that is dangerous you will suffer the consequences of your actions. My wife keeps 3 accounts balanced online and two of them constantly have barely $2 in them. She never overdrafts because she watches the account and keeps her register. If you don't want to do this much work then you need to keep a savings account that is linked to your checking to prevent overdraft charges and fees that you know are going to come but were just to lazy to write it down on your schedule or your check register. And don't keep only $5 in your savings account. lol. And believe me I am not a Bank of America Employee. I can't stand Banks and the monopoly they have become. But that does not mean I am not going to be lazy and think I have no consequence for my actions.
Chefotto on 06/26/2007:
Letter to the OCC: Bank of America charging overdraft fees even when the account shows an actual positive balance.
Bank of America is charging overdraft fees on accounts with a positive balance by debiting them when checks are issued via online banking rather than when they are cashed.
My online banking account is linked to a private account and a business account. It defaults to the private account, so that a check for $4,400 intended for the business account was sent to the private account. Discovering the mistake a day after the checks were issued (but not cashed) I immediately transferred $5000 into the account.. On-line banking showed a deficit of about $1,500 on a previous balance of about $3,000. Checking with BofA online banking customer service I was informed that an overdraft fee of $35 would be charged for each overdraft.
Contacting the recipients of the checks to make sure that they had been able to cash them, however, I was informed that the checks had neither been received nor cashed, which means that the account has a current real balance of over $8,0000, which more than covers the amounts of the checks written. A second call to Bank of America online Banking Service confirmed, however, that $35 per each of the five overdrafts would be charged in fees for uncovered checks despite the ongoing positive balance.)
Bank of America debits the account at the moment a check is issued. While I have resolved individual problem through assertive demands, I am sure others do not fare as well (my cash balance is usually rather high and Bank of America can be reasonable under those conditions). This practice, if legal, is outrageous and needs to be examined. Please tell me you will.
customerXXX on 07/11/2007:
To Sanford 31031 and trasmus : you both refer to checking online balances in addition to keeping your own register. I'd really love to know - What is the point of checking your online balance at all if you are keeping your own register?
To elizzi2002 : You say not to rely on the online banking, atm or even the teller. It's nice to think that we are not meant to trust the people who are holding our hard earned money. What is the point of giving over our money to an institution that can't be trusted?
quovadis on 07/20/2007:
I would like to tell my story.
I used to have an MBNA BUSINESS credit card, that was taken over by Bank of America.
Now BOA sent me two new Business credit cards, and I try to use online banking to see by balances and conduct the company business online.
First of all, I can't see temporary authorizations on my statement as purchases occur.
The debits and credits are posted 3-5 days later.
So I have to wait to see if a payment went through.
The total alloted credit line is wrong. It actually shows the wrong figures.
I have set up the online banking to send me email alerts. I often receive emails stating that our credit card balance exceeeds the threshold set.
When I call customer service they clearly state that the balance is nowhere near the threshold.
When I make a minimum payment due, the amount stays online to be paid again.
Sometimes I have paid that minimum payment multiple times hoping it would disappear...when I call customer service they tell me no minimum payment is due...
This is to say, that BOA online Business Credit card section is really not working.
It is making my life very miserable to say the least, and a lot of wasted time calling the online banking customer service.
Their typical response is "we are working on it" we know online banking has some flaws...
inthamix on 08/03/2007:
thank you ever so much, msmall and customerXXX and Hockeman. I am relieved to finally hear from someone on this site who does not appear to be paid, or brainwashed, by the banking industry. I posted a very legitimate, but complicated, complaint re. WaMu yesterday. I was assailed with nasty, insulting folks (yes, I did stoop to calling one of them a smartypants after he insinuated pretty bluntly that I wasn't very bright). people who seem to wish a bank would hire them, or who did work for a bank .... or I suspect people who go onto these sites purely for the sick joy of having a chance to lecture and insult complete strangers. I sincerely feel that it's questions like yours, and like mine, that have any chance of getting us anywhere in this society. this mindless repetition of bank policies, which basically amount to telling us, "don't trust the bank" ..... where is that getting us at all? watch out in particular for Ponie ... only in this to practice hurling insults ....
maaddmax on 05/02/2008:
Wow, I had this exact same issue happen to me last month, and after calls and letters of complaints all I have gotten is the same response as you. I asked what the purpose of their advertisements and use of online checking if I cannot trust the balance shown. Their own commercials show people online in a cafe watching as their transaction goes through and showing up instantly online. I had purchases from several days previous hit my account just before midnight, when my auto deposit would come in. I checked all day and night to make sure my balance was positive and if it did go negative I still had time to take a loan from family and deposit it.
Scott on 08/01/2012:
BOA's website and text banking is just flat out unreliable!! That's the underlying problem. Their system has failed me many times. I don't know if everyone is familiar with BOA's text banking feature. I simple text with a 3-letter command and BOA can update you with account info. I texted asking for my balance, it told me I had $578 in my account, but when I logged in online minutes later, it showed $2894 in my account. ??? Just the other day, I went online to balance up my account and there were charges that were there 5 days ago and now they are missing... came back the next day with a different amount. How can you possibly manage your account when the bank cannot? I don't have all day to sit here and watch over everything. If the bank is going to create and release these banking systems, then must be reliable.
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Liberian Sex Monster
Posted by
BALTIMORE, MARYLAND -- Justice has received another black eye, this time from the Maryland Judiciary. A man charged with raping a 7 year old girl and molesting her over a three year period, was freed when the charges against him were dropped.
The charges were dropped because they were supposedly unable to find an interpreter who spoke the suspect's native tongue, as he was from Liberia. Shame on the idiots who made this determination, and also shame on the Liberian Embassy which refused to assist, claiming they could not force anyone to act as an interpreter. So far this all sounds quite reasonable, doesn't it? The thing that makes this whole situation intolerable is that the suspect attended High School and College in the United States, and speaks English fluently. For Pete's sake, he discussed the case with detectives in excellent English!
To claim that the man needed an interpreter to defend himself against the charges or that he was unable to understand English sufficiently to assist is his defense is balderdash! To see a Child Molester and Rapist walk free because of a phony baloney reason like this galls me. I agree that a person should be considered innocent until and unless proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, to use ridiculous concepts to twist our judicial system to escape punishment for one's patently criminal activities is unacceptable. I am not usually one to wish ill on anyone, but in this case, this person should become the victim of an 'accident.' Possibly a hit and run accident as he crosses a street. The Maryland Attorney General should join Mike Nifong in the Judicial Hall of Shame.
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Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
I also read about this case, and dropping the charges is absolutely ridiculous!
Skye on 07/23/2007:
Oh my god, what another tragedy in our so called judicial system.
My prayers go out to that little, innocent angel.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
That's yankee justice for ya...Send him on down here to Oklahoma or Texas. We tend to execute first... ask questions second...trial is a distant third.. We pretty much figure God will sort it all out in the end.
Hope the prosecutor is able to win the appeal. Ditto Skye.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
Fu** the judicial system!
Ponie on 07/23/2007:
State attorney McCarthy held a short presser earlier today. Some time this afternoon, he's appealing the ruling handed down by Judge Katherine Savage which lets this monster go free.
Within something like a two hour period yesterday, the Washington Post was able to locate three competent interpreters. Also the alleged (I hate that word) rapist was interviewed by FOX News yesterday and spoke very good English. I noted FOX is not playing the video, just commenting on it.
My Sis lives in Montgomery County MD where all this took place. I sent her an email ribbing her about the kind of justice meted out in her county. I also told her to make note of the judge's name in case it's an elected office. She replied that 'sometimes we get things right' (meaning McCarthy) and will remember Savage's name.
At the presser, McCarthy said he felt 'confident the ruling will be overturned.' I hope so, also.
Ponie on 07/23/2007:
P.S. Starlord. The attorney general IS getting involved by having McCarthy file an appeal. I pray the appeal is granted.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
Our government is out of control and the lawyers and judges are running amuck all over the law and the people of the USA. It is passed time for these people to be held accountable for the crimes they commit against the law's that they were swarm to up hold.
People such a J. Sutton who spend millions to lock up Americans doing there job to protect America, yet criminals are set free and even paid millions to do WHAT?
What is it these people are hiding by letting rapist go free to rape again? By letting drug dealers go free to bring more drugs in to an already drug saturated country.
Maybe it's time for the people to take a long hard look at the situation and begin to put a stop to this kind of criminal actions by putting these judges, lawyers and politicians where they belong in prison?
Read the rest of the story below.
By Jonathan Paye-Layleh BBC News, Monrovia
A new bill in Liberia calling for tough penalties for rapists has been submitted to the president.
The Female Lawyers Association want their draft bill to replace current law, which is vague and has allowed rapists to go unpunished.
Under the new proposals, those found guilty of raping someone under 18 years old would be jailed for life.
Rape is on the increase since the end of the 14-year civil war in 2003 which saw widespread sexual violence.
There are currently 80 rape cases documented at the national human rights commission.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
Nothing surprises me in this state anymore. From now on the State of Maryland will be known as the State of Confusion.
Nohandle on 07/23/2007:
Does anyone remember the time when a convicted rapist was given the death penalty and that penalty was carried out? The rape of a innocent child was unspeakable and I doubt the individual was even given a trial by the time the family got through with him.
Starlord, on my MSN search I looked up Rape Capital Offense and the following was first on the list. I thought some might be interested in the states taking this seriously. It's a bit lengthy, sorry, but I feel people need to be aware.
May 31, 2007
Analysis of capital child rape laws
At FindLaw, Professor Marci Hamilton has this new commentary discussing new laws making child rape a capital offense. Here is how it begins:
Last week, the Louisiana Supreme Court upheld the death penalty as applied to a child abuser. Louisiana has led the way in passing laws to execute pedophiles. However, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Georgia, and Montana also have passed such laws, with Texas soon to follow when Gov. Rick Perry signs such legislation.
A major impetus for the death penalty in child sex cases is the heinous crime by a previously-convicted sex offender against Florida nine-year old Jessica Lunsford, who suffered horrific abuse, including burial alive in a shallow grave, where she eventually suffocated. If there is a way to measure the temperature of public opinion against child abuse, this is it, and it bodes well for children, even if it is not the most effective way of protecting children.
Skye on 07/23/2007:
Thank you No Handle. I am sick of the innocence of children being taken away and some even murdered by the sick trash of society. I think the death penalty is well long overdue for repeat offending pedophiles.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
raping - Does that mean he had sex with her by using forse.
Noneill on 07/23/2007:
I am outraged as anyone else, but I want to say that the title of your complaint is misleading. He didn't have sex with a 7 y/o. He raped her and that is a crime of violence, not sex.
tnchuck100 on 07/23/2007:
100 years ago the "law" did not have to concern themselves with a situation such as this. The child's father would kill him! Justice served!
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
Noneill - But I thought rape was makeing someone have sex when they did not want to.
Skye on 07/23/2007:
OK, this story is on Nancy Grace right now. He went to high school and college here, and speaks English. This whole thing is insane. The judge is a lunatic to throw this case out.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
I wonder what was in it for the judge?
Skye on 07/23/2007:
She's saying in pained her, but that she had to throw it out, since he didn't get a fair and speedy trial. Thing is, he signed off on something waiving this right. She basically gave up and was sick of dealing with all this. What!!
Also, he speaks English. What about this little girls rights?? The whole thing makes me want to pull the switch on the electric chair myself, to have him eliminated.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
This system,or SHI*STEM is corrupt!!!!
I'm moving to Canada!
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
It's not the system Steve, its the people running it!
Skye on 07/23/2007:
Does anyone know where her parents were or are?? So far no mention of them.
They are now discussing what disgusting things he did to her when she was six. Full blown sex, as well as penetration in other places. I want to vomit. She's a baby. She is my nieces age :(
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
I think its both.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
That's sick,a grown man with a kid.LET ME AT HIM!!
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
How To Destroy America
by Richard D. Lamm
March 22, 2006
"First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: 'The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy.' Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
Lidman,where do you get this stuff?
Skye on 07/23/2007:
I would love to let you guys loose on him. See how tough he is then. If it was only in my power.
Nohandle on 07/23/2007:
About a year or two ago, in this area, we had a situation where a man was arrested for sexual child abuse. A done deal at the time of his arrest due to the evidence. He was tossed into the "community lock up" if that's the correct term and although not killed, he was pretty well taken care of that night by the others who were in the cell and had learned what he was in there for. He recovered sufficiently to stand trial and sentenced to prison. I certainly hope the word was passed on. Never heard anything since. Perhaps we best put the criminals in charge of child abuse cases. I understand they don't take too kindly to them.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
I was kidding Lid.
Don't yell at me.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
Guys in jail take care of the justice these creeps deserve.
If the judge,and jury won't dirty their hands,No worries send him to prison.
Skye on 07/23/2007:
No handle, that's the best suggestion I've read. Really, that's justice being served.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
It's just one of those things I would exspect from a Californian. LOL J/K or am I?
"The American Dream is alive and well
to all those who choose to chase after it."
-Jim Bickford
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
Nohandle, the word does get passed on. That's the reason the other judge let the pervert go in a different case because he was "short" and they new he wouldn't last a day in prison.
Starlord on 07/23/2007:
ponie, thank you for the info. I have found out it was the judge in the case who threw the charges out on the word of a psychiatrist (I never met a psychiatrist who w2asn't crazier than his patients.) I fail to understand why they keep saying he cannot be re-charged. He was not found not guilty by a jury, as I understand it, he never saw a jury. Maryland, State of Confusion joins the People's Republic of Massachusetts. Is this some sort of mental defect that is invading all of New England?
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
Book I, Chapter 4
Concerning The Tower Of Babylon, And The Confusion Of Tongues
1. Now the sons of Noah were three, -- Shem, Japhet, and Ham, born one hundred years before the Deluge. These first of all descended from the mountains into the plains, and fixed their habitation there; and persuaded others who were greatly afraid of the lower grounds on account of the flood, and so were very loath to come down from the higher places, to venture to follow their examples. Now the plain in which they first dwelt was called Shinar. God also commanded them to send colonies abroad, for the thorough peopling of the earth, that they might not raise seditions among themselves, but might cultivate a great part of the earth, and enjoy its fruits after a plentiful manner. But they were so ill instructed that they did not obey God; for which reason they fell into calamities, and were made sensible, by experience, of what sin they had been guilty: for when they flourished with a numerous youth, God admonished them again to send out colonies; but they, imagining the prosperity they enjoyed was not derived from the favor of God, but supposing that their own power was the proper cause of the plentiful condition they were in, did not obey him. Nay, they added to this their disobedience to the Divine will, the suspicion that they were therefore ordered to send out separate colonies, that, being divided asunder, they might the more easily be Oppressed.
2. Now it was Nimrod who excited them to such an affront and contempt of God. He was the grandson of Ham, the son of Noah, a bold man, and of great strength of hand. He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it was through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyranny, seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence on his power. He also said he would be revenged on God, if he should have a mind to drown the world again; for that he would build a tower too high for the waters to be able to reach! and that he would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers !
3. Now the multitude were very ready to follow the determination of Nimrod, and to esteem it a piece of cowardice to submit to God; and they built a tower, neither sparing any pains, nor being in any degree negligent about the work: and, by reason of the multitude of hands employed in it, it grew very high, sooner than any one could expect; but the thickness of it was so great, and it was so strongly built, that thereby its great height seemed, upon the view, to be less than it really was. It was built of burnt brick, cemented together with mortar, made of bitumen, that it might not be liable to admit water. When God saw that they acted so madly, he did not resolve to destroy them utterly, since they were not grown wiser by the destruction of the former sinners; but he caused a tumult among them, by producing in them divers languages, and causing that, through the multitude of those languages, they should not be able to understand one another. The place wherein they built the tower is now called Babylon, because of the confusion of that language which they readily understood before; for the Hebrews mean by the word Babel, confusion. The Sibyl also makes mention of this tower, and of the confusion of the language, when she says thus: "When all men were of one language, some of them built a high tower, as if they would thereby ascend up to heaven, but the gods sent storms of wind and overthrew the tower, and gave every one his peculiar language; and for this reason it was that the city was called Babylon." But as to the plan of Shinar, in the country of Babylonia, Hestiaeus mentions it, when he says thus: "Such of the priests as were saved, took the sacred vessels of Jupiter Enyalius, and came to Shinar of Babylonia."
Ponie on 07/23/2007:
starlord, it's that 'double jeopardy' thing. He was charged, charges dismissed by a dim-wit judge, so can't be recharged. They may be could get him on something else--like spitting on the sidewalk--but not for the same crime again. (Guess I watch too much Law & Order.) Also, I misspoke earlier. FOX didn't have a video interview--they did it by telephone. They said he spoke broken English. But, again, none of the telephone conversation was aired. I wonder why? O'Reilly and Greta VanSusteren had a go at it on the O'Reilly Factor tonight. Naturally, since he's been on the tails of numerous judges who do such stupid things, Bill was blaming the judge. Greta, a former prosecutor, said it was up to the prosecution to obtain a suitable interpreter. I guess they originally had two or three lined up, bur for various reasons none of them served in that capacity.
I still want to see the jerk fry. He looks like a reject from the bottom of the barrel.
Anonymous on 07/23/2007:
Ponie, good point. Charges dismissed, at this point, because he didn't get a 'speedy trial'.
We can only wish they could get him on something(significant) at this point. What were his words in the phone interview? Something like "I said what I needed to say".
runaway on 07/24/2007:
The problem with this case (and I'm sure others like it we don't hear about) comes down to the defendant saying they don't understand English well enough to comprehend the charges and the law and assist in their own defense. Anyone with English as a second language can claim this. If you can't quickly find an "approved" interpreter, then they have the "not given their right to a speedy trial" defense.
Why not have an "approval system" for ability to comprehend the language? Tape ALL conversations with the suspect, making sure you ask unrelated questions that test their ability to reason in English (not informing them of what you're doing, of course so they can't fake it), then use those tapes to prove the suspect's comprehension abilities.
Ponie on 07/24/2007:
Whoooeee! FNC received a 300 page document which shows this low-life's history. He was charged with raping his 7 yr. old niece. It's come to light he also raped another ONE AND A HALF YEAR old niece! Please, Lord, let me at this monster. Within 15 minutes he'd be a soprano--and I don't mean the HBO series. Oh, also, he lives with his father who is a registered sex offender. There are two young girls in the household also. Can't CPS go in and get those kids out of there?
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Concern of faulty airbag
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BALTIMORE, MARYLAND -- As a consumer from your state, I felt it was my responsibility to bring to your attention the following incident.
I purchased a used 1999 Toyota Camry 1n 2001. On Friday, June 11, 2004, this vehicle was involved in a serious accident involving major front end damage to the car. However, the airbag did not deploy. I took pictures of my vehicle and compared them to other vehicles on the lot where my car had been towed. After the comparison, I noticed that the damage sustained by my vehicle was similar to or greater than the damage sustained by other vehicles. I took pictures of different vehicles because I suspect that there is a problem with the airbags on my car.
As a resolution, I would like the following:
I want Toyota to be held accountable for the problems that exists with this vehicle. I would like for the entire vehicle to be replaced as it appears that it should be totaled anyway. I would also like some monetary compensation because when the vehicle was purchased it was advertised as having driver's and passenger's side airbags. This apparently is not the case so I should not have been paying for something that I did not have.
Please contact me if you need more details regarding this incident.
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terrapin8180 on 06/16/2004:
I understand the problem with the car and all but your crazy if you think they are going to give you a new car and and compensate you. I think you need to come back down to earth.
bill on 06/16/2004:
Airbags are not designed to employ in every accident. Sometimes an airbag can cause more injury than the accident. Just because there was major front end damage, doesn't mean the accident was serious enough for the airbag to deploy. Front ends are desinged to crumple in an accident so as to absorb the force and better protect the occupants fo the car. I don't think you were injured in the accident (otherwise you would be screaming that you want money for medical bills and pain and suffering) so its a good thing the airbag didn't open. I think the airbag was working and working properly because it didn't deploy when it didn't need to.
Slimjim on 06/16/2004:
If you weren't hurt, be thankful the airbag didn't blow up in your face. Not only does it feel like getting punched with a brick, but adds about 2k to the cost of repairs when replacing it. As already brought up, most front end accidents do not deploy the bag, and that's by design.
LegalCollector on 06/16/2004:
I learned a lot about airbags by reading this. Thanks guys!! (Not being sarcastic)
shyfox777 on 06/16/2004:
Excellent points, bill. Another point not taken by the writer - the fact that he or she is alive and well and writing to anyone speaks volumes about the safety design of the vehicle.
Anonymous on 06/17/2004:
Too many possible scenerios here to comment but a letter to the attorney general is worthless here. Try contacting the NHTSA (National Highway Transportation & Safety Administration) and file a report (I suspect the attorney general will tell you the same). They will investigate and come to a fair conclusion. Did you purchase the vehicle used?? The latest trend is people repairing vehicles that have been in accidents and NOT putting the airbags back in, only the covers and then selling them to unsuspecting people. There is no real set standard for airbag deployment but most manufactures are set around a front end collision of over 16 MPH but this CAN vary. Also some vehicle's will have a higher impact rating if you are wearing your seatbelt that way there is no deployment when it is not necessary. On a lighter side of things be thankful the airbag did not deploy and you were able to walk away, when these airbags deploy it can be similar to being hit by Mike Tyson. Good Luck.
PeskyKittyButt on 07/07/2004:
Toyota is NOT going to replace your totaled car with a new car. Now get your head out of your butt and move along.
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A building which looks as if it may have been a pub. If you can confirm or refute this or have any other information, please let us know.
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Mazda CX-7 v Toyota RAV4 v Honda CR-V
I had a 5 speed FWD for 17 years and the insurance was cheap. I don't hear Subaru owners with MTs complaining about their insurance rates either. I don't think there's any factual basis for your assertion.
Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - firstname.lastname@example.com.
Just a thought, people should consider the Mazda 5. Very highly rated, it is like a very small minivan or wagon (only considered like a minivan because of sliding doors). We cross-shopped the CRV with the Mazda 5 and chose it because:
- higher than a car but lower than an SUV
- MUCH better handling with extremely tight turning circle - handles like a Mazda 3
- Seats 6 in three rows, but can fold rear seats for cargo room
- Bargain priced, fully loaded with nav, leather, bluetooth, heated seats around $25K
- Outstanding crash test scores
- Better mileage than CRV or RAV4
- Sliding doors mean no doors swinging out in tight parking spots
- Available with a stick shift if desired
Just FYI. I work in an Insurance agency and the MT cars are less expensive to insure simply because replacement value is less.
Also, theft rates are a lot lower. New generation of joy riders have no clue what to do with the 3rd pedal.
They have grown up with their parents driving slushbox minivans, and their computer games always shifted for them.
There was an article in the paper about these car thieves that just sat in a manual Accord trying to figure out how to get it going! The police caught them while they were still trying to figure out how to put it in "drive"
We were looking for a small, reliable vehicle with a lot of space. Looked at RAV4 and CRV. Then we discovered the Mazda 5, a tall wagon/micro-minivan. We've had it a year and really like it for the following features:
- It's taller than a sedan but lower than a CRV. No climbing up or stooping down to get in. The height is just perfect.
- Three rows of two - seats 6
- Handles like a Mazda 3 since it is on the same platform. Less rollover potential than a SUV. Really excellent steering feel and handling.
- Same cargo space as the CRV with more seating flexibility
- About $5K cheaper, similarly equipped
- Sliding rear doors = get in easily in tight parking spots
- Very tight turning circle makes it very maneuverable
I know this is an SUV thread, those were the vehicles we were cross-shopping and the Mazda 5 defies comparisons; there is no other vehicle quite like it on the US market.
I would have still bought the CRV as a second choice. We looked at the CX-7 but wanted a bit better mileage and didn't feel the turbo was as refined as the other engines.
sr146260211 Posts: 55Didn't even think of the Mazda 5 for the reason linked below.. Reliability issues for the long term
CR-V was much better....
Comparison...2009 models, not 2010 from link below... CR-V is now 180 HP with 21 mpg city and 28 mpg highway as well. Safety features listed on below link are way way off and in no way are up to date with some false none available items.
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/compare-cars-results.htm?trimIds[]=30- - 8099&trimIds[]=305968&trimIds[]=307572
motoguy128 Posts: 146I would have considered the Mazda 5 if they upgraded the drivetrain with the new 2.5L Mazda now has available.
Otherwise, its' a much more cramped interior than the CR-V. But it does have more cargo room and flexibility, the 3rd row, and more car-like dynamics.
The CR-V does have AWD available and better ground clearance and visibility.
Don't be fooled by peak HP numbers. Always look at th torque number and where it's peak is located. the Honda 2.4L caompares well to the GM 190 HP 2.4L. But for comparison, the Nissan 2.5L is a much stronger motor across the whole RPM range, espeically the bottom end where you use it the most.
An engine that makes 180ft-lbs at 3900 RPM is going ot feel much more pwoerful than one that makes 169ft-lbs at 5300RPM even if the first makes 175HP but and the later makes 180HP. Unless the 180HP motor has shorter gearing, the slightly less pwoerful but torquier motor will out perform it.
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Stew offers the convenience of portable packaging
- Category: New Food Products
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Historically stew is a simple, hearty meal – one that regular eaters consider comfort food. Until recently, the category has featured more traditional meal options dominated by cans with limited variety. Responding to consumer demand for quick, convenient yet flavorful meals, Austin, Minn.-based Hormel Foods is tackling a big challenge: reinvigorating the stew category.
Hormel launches Dinty Moore Big Bowls, a concept that combines the top-selling stew with the convenience of portable packaging. Big Bowls are loaded with hearty chunks of meat and vegetables that satisfy true hunger – for times when regular soup just won't cut it.
Ready in less than two minutes, Dinty Moore Big Bowls feature a larger, 15-ounce microwavable bowl with new varieties including: Traditional Beef Stew; Chicken and Dumplings; Scalloped Potatoes and Ham; Italian-style Stew with Meatballs; and Southwest Chicken Stew.


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Mini Dots Sandra Top
Fun, fresh, and fabulous. Polka dots cover a flowy silhouette with a drapey pleated front.
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- Length: 24" to 27".
- 100% polyester.
- Machine wash. Imported.
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Saint Honore Jeans
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Blanc Floral-Print Slim Ankle Jean
Prints on jeans go big and bold. Our hand-designed watercolor floral brings in spring blues and neutrals for mixing with almost any of our solid tops. 92% Cotton, 6% Elasterell-p, 2% Spandex. Machine wash, cold; tumble dry low. Imported.
- Blanc. Our universal fit. Eased through the hip and thigh, sits just below the waist.
- Slim ankle.
- Front zip with signature shank closure. Rhinestone rivets. Logo plaque on back pocket.
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- Inseams: regular 30", short 27.5", long 32".
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ABSTRACT: Early identification and treatment of all pregnant women with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) is the best way to prevent neonatal disease and improve the woman's health. Human immunodeficiency virus screening is recommended for all pregnant women after they are notified that they will...
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Ziex ZE-912
Tread Type:
Out of Stock
Customer Comments
Top rate tyre for a low price! Have bought again.10/12/2013
Great tyre on a budget.15/11/2013
Great value for money.15/11/2013
Don't think you can beat Falken tyres for the money.10/11/2013
A fantastic Tyre, I have just come to renew them, and i am going for another set. They lasted twice as long as at £20 more expensive Bridgestone Tyre.19/04/2013
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- 4 wide circumferential grooves makes the Falken ZE-912 an incredibly stable tyre at high speed, and under heavy braking.
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Kohler10 coupon applies to these select finishes - Brushed Nickel, Polished Chrome, Oil Rubbed Bronze (2BZ), Stainless Steel
Sink Strainer without Tail from Duostrainer Collection
This Duostrainer sink strainer features solid brass construction for durability and reliability, and the removable basket strainer has an open/close stopper that seals tightly. The strainer is for sink installations with 3-1/2" or 4" outlets.
- Sink strainer, less tailpiece
- Solid brass construction for durability and reliability
- For sink installations with 3-1/2" or 4" outlets
- Removable basket strainer with open/close stopper that seals tightly
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Our SKU: Kohler K-8799
This product is listed under the following manufacturer number(s):
- Kohler K-8799-BX*
Brazen Bronze
- Kohler k-8799-BV
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Allergy-friendly and fun combine into one chew with our Only Natural Pet Lamb Weasand Dog Chews.
Made with nutrient rich organ meat from USA sourced, free range lamb, Only Natural Pet Lamb Weasand Dog Chew are a great answer for dogs with common beef allergies. These lambs are raised hormone- & antibiotic-free, giving your dog the quality, single ingredient chew he deserves. They undergo minimal dehydrating & cooking in the USA under strict regulations that maintain safety & quality.
Only Natural Pet Lamb Weasand Dog Chews are made from single ingredient lamb esophagus, which is high in protein, low in fat, completely digestible, and rich in naturally occurring organ meat nutrients. Their unique twisting pattern makes them ideal for keeping your dogs teeth & gums healthy. The softer texture of these chews will make them a satisfying snack for seniors, puppies, & dogs with sensitive mouths.
Only Natural Pet Lamb Weasand Dog Chews
With nutrient dense organ meat, allergy-friendly lamb, & a unique shape, Only Natural Pet Lamb Weasand Dog Chews have it all.
Available as 16" in single, 10 pack, 25 pack, & 50 pack.
Lamb Bully Twists vs. Rawhides: The Choice Is Clear
Country of Origin: USA
Manufacturer: Only Natural Pet
Ingredients - 100% Lamb Weasand
Directions for Use
Always supervise your dog while chewing.
The reviews below are presented for informational purposes only and are not intended as an endorsement of any product. The information is not intended to be a substitute for visits to your local veterinarian. Instead, these testimonials offer the reader information and opinions written by pet owners and/or veterinarians concerning animal health and products that they have used.
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Comments about Only Natural Pet Lamb Weasand Dog Chew:
I give these chews to both my dogs, one is a senior who has trouble chewing, and the other is a gulper. Both dogs happily crunch this treat and I do not have to worry about them swallowing large pieces because they are able to easily chew the treat into small pieces before swallowing. This treat seems to be easily digestible so if they do manage to swallow a piece that is a bit too large, I do think they will be able to break it down in their stomachs. This is the treat I feel most comfortable giving my dogs because it seems very safe for them.
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Sybase solutions running on Intel platforms offer a compelling combination of power, value and versatility. As more companies seek the cost advantages of Intel-based servers, they can be assured that Sybase solutions on Intel provide an infrastructure for high performance, mission-critical computing. Sybase on Intel meets these requirements with leading price/performance results on Xeon and Itanium-2 based processor systems.
What People Are Saying:
"As our customers face the need to invest in new data centers and improve energy efficiency, Intel platforms are front and center" says Mark Westover, Vice President of Sybase Partner Group. "Intel's processor architecture and strategy help Sybase solutions deliver high performance at extremely competitive price points."


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American Headache Society
National Headache Foundation
Headache Network Canada
Help for Headaches
Dambro MR.
Griffith's 5-Minute Clinical Consult. Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins; 1999.
Goetz CG.
Textbook of Clinical Neurology. Philadelphia, PA: WB Saunders Co; 1999.
Melchart D, Streng A, Hoppe A, et al. Acupuncture in patients with tension-type headache: randomized controlled trial.
Brit Med J. 2005;331:376-379.
NINDS headache information page. National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke website. Available at:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/headache/headache.htm. Updated November 8, 2013. Accessed December 30, 2013..
Rakel RE, Bope ET.
Conn's Current Therapy 2001.
53rd ed. Philadelphia, PA: WB Saunders Company; 2001.
Tension headache. EBSCO DynaMed website. Available at: http://www.ebscohost.com/dynamed. Updated December 19, 2013. Accessed December 30, 2013.
Tension-type headache.
National Headache Foundation website. Available at:
http://www.headaches.org/education/Headache%5FTopic%5FSheets/Tension-Type%5FHeadache. Accessed December 30, 2013.
12/16/2008 DynaMed's Systematic Literature Surveillance
http://www.ebscohost.com/dynamed: Jena S, Witt CM, Brinkhaus B, Wegscheider K, Willich SN. Acupuncture in patients with headache.
8/27/2010 DynaMed's Systematic Literature Surveillance
http://www.ebscohost.com/dynamed: Robberstad L, Dyb G, Hagen K, Stovner LJ, Holmen TL, Zwart JA. An unfavorable lifestyle and recurrent headaches among adolescents: The HUNT Study.
5/12/2014 DynaMed's Systematic Literature Surveillance
http://www.ebscohost.com/dynamed: Yancey JR, Sheridan R, et al. Chronic daily headache: diagnosis and management. Am Fam Physician. 2014 Apr 15;89(8):642-8.
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Yakima Hold-Up 1.25in $449.00
Simple, secure, and fast as all get-out. That's the Yakima HoldUp, baby.
The hitch-mount Yakima HoldUp 1.25 secures two bikes about as quickly and easily as humanly possible. This platform-style rack fits into standard one-and-a-quarter-inch (1.25") hitch receivers, and secures two bikes using Yakima's patented, ratcheting StrongArm bars. The StrongArm system is favored by everyone from downhillers to road bikers for its speed (about ten seconds per bike) strength, and frame-friendly over-the-wheel grip. The HoldUp is fully adjustable to accommodate all bike sizes, folds up when not in use, and even has a bottle opener built in for post-ride refreshments. Need more space? Attach the Plus 2 Add On Kit (not included) and double your bike-hauling capacity.
- Fits just about any style bike (no tandems or recumbents) from 20-inch to 29-inch wheels
- Carries 2 bikes right out of the box
- Spring loaded pin makes it easy to tilt the rack out of the way for rear access
- Includes 6-foot SKS security cable
- Lock cores included
- Integrated bottle opener for post-ride hydration
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Beta AR Jacket Women's
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Shaped specifically for women, the streamlined Beta AR Jacket provides the backcountry minimalist with durable storm protection in a lightweight and packable format. This hip length waterproof/breathable jacket reduces layering overlap and bulk, a helmet compatible DropHood™ offers quick coverage, and a supple-feeling lightweight GORE-TEX® Pro textile provides guaranteed storm protection.
A mainstay in the Arc'teryx lineup since 2000, the Beta AR is the do everything, most versatile waterproof/breathable jacket for mountain environments. Hand pockets, athletic fit that accommodates maximum layers and a hood with an internal collar mean comfort in storms, climbing, skiing or simply enjoying the outdoors.
Hip length is the easiest to work with when layering waterproof/breathable garments.The Beta AR hits the middle ground.
A good hood is a crucial detail on any serious alpine jacket. The Beta AR features the Arc'teryx DropHood™, a helmet-compatible, fast adjust hood with a separate collar for draft protection.
If a person can only choose one jacket for all their activities, the Beta AR is a solid, well-rounded piece. Durable, lightweight, with hand pockets and pit zippers for ventilation, it can manage storms, rock, snow and cool seasons. GORE-TEX® Pro delivers the highest level of waterproof/breathable performance.
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WaterTight™ Zippers
Arc'teryx pioneered the now industry standard WaterTight™ zipper to seal out wind and weather, and Zipper Garages that provide additional protection from rain and snow.
Key Advantages
- WaterTight™ zippers seal out weather
- Zipper garages provide additional protection
- Durable and easy to use
Arc'teryx Fit Guide - e3D
Ergonomic 3-Dimensional (e3D) patterning brings an additional level of articulation to provide enhanced range-of-motion in our Trim, Athletic, and Expedition fit categories. The application of e3D patterning allows for enhanced mobility for sport-specific activities in challenging environments.
Arc'teryx Fit Guide - Athletic Fit
Standing in as our "Arc'teryx Standard" fit, the complex patterns used utilize anatomical shaping and gussets to enhance motion and eliminate excess bulk. Trimmer than the Relaxed fit with room for a base layer, a light fleece mid-layer and a synthetic or down filled mid-layer.
To find out how to calculate your body measurements, view our Sizing Charts:
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England-Holland still equal after four rounds Staunton Memorial
After four rounds of play over five boards, the two teams at this year's Staunton Memorial are still equal to each other: England vs Holland 10-10. Both won a match twice with a 3-2 score and with very fightful chess, which unfortunately cannot be followed online for free.
The 7th Staunton Memorial takes place August 8-17 at Simpsons-in-the-Strand, one of London's most renowned traditional English restaurants. Situated in one of the capital's famous streets, The Strand, it is part of the Savoy Buildings, which include possibly the world's most famous hostelry, the Savoy Hotel.
It also played an important role in the development of chess in the 19th century. Almost all of the top players of the 19th century played there at some stage: Wilhelm Steinitz, Paul Morphy, Emmanuel Lasker, Johannes Zukertort (who had a fatal stroke whilst playing there), and Siegbert Tarrasch to name but a few.
It was in Simpson's in 1851 that one of the world's great games, the famous "Immortal Game", was played between Adolf Anderssen and Lionel Kieseritzky. It also hosted the great tournaments of 1883 and 1899, and the first ever women's international in 1897. (Source: Wikipedia)
Back to 2009, when Simpsons hosts a Scheveningen-style match between England and Holland as its main event. Each side has five of their top players, competing in a double-round event. The two sides are as follows:
|IGM Michael Adams
|IGM Ivan Sokolov
|IGM Nigel Short
|IGM Loek van Wely
|IGM Luke McShane
|IGM Jan Smeets
|IGM David Howell
|IGM Erwin L'Ami
|IGM Gawain Jones
|IGM Jan Werle
|Average rating
|Average rating
Alongside the Scheveningen event, the Staunton Memorial also sees a second, category 9 all-play-all tournament, the full line-up for which is as follows:
Rounds 1-4
On Saturday, August 8th the first round started, which was only a day after the British Championships finished. Luckily only one player arrived late for the round and he had a good reason. David Howell, the new champion, had to stay behind to attend Saturday morning's prize-giving. Opponent Jan Smeets sportingly agreed to delay the start of their game and so everything started smoothly, including the live transmission of the games, as we can read on the tournament website.
Well, for the organizers perhaps, but many chess fans awaited a big disappointment when it became clear that the live games could not be followed without paying for it!
To view the 7th Howard Staunton Memorial Chess Tournament Live Webcast you are required to subscribe to 2 See It Live. A simple 'ONE OFF' payment of £5.00 subscription fee is required which will provide you full access to the live webcast during the 7th Howard Staunton Memorial Chess Tournament.
A surprising move by the organizers, since chess fans have been used to watching games for free for a long time, and they're probably not willing to pay as long as there's no extra service, like online commentary or good-quality streaming video. Not surprisingly, it already led to a heated debate here at ChessVibes, which includes comments by no-one less than GM Raymond Keene, who is Tournament Director in London. He argues:
The debate about whether to pay for live coverage is a very interesting one and forms part of the larger debate about whether to pay for website content overall in any sphere of reporting or not. Ultimately I believe that charging will have to come in - I can think of a few areas where a service is provided which is offered for free. In that sense the Staunton Memorial is pioneering what I feel must be the future trend in chess and all forms of reporting. There is an interesting article about this question in Time Magazine current issue, and many others.
In a few years time thos who argued against charching - and we are charging around £ 5 per day [later corrected to £ 5 for the full tournament - PD] which works out at 50p per game each day - will be seen as the reactionaries fighting a losing battle. The free sites in the future will look miserable, amauteurish and badly constructed when compared to those for which the public will be prepared to pay. (...)
There are many interesting points made by Mr Keene here. First of all, the Staunton Memorial is of course far from pioneering - many organizers of chess events in the past have tried to make money with the broadcast of games (including Mr Keene himself, we believe). We vividly remember the Foidos project during last year's Anand-Kramnik Wch match.
The basic argument, though, seems to be that free equals bad quality, and in this respect ChessVibes needs to start worrying. The thousands and thousands (the number is growing rapidly) of websites that run on open source software all have to start worrying. Facebook, Google, all providing free service - they all need to start worrying, we presume...
Besides, as far as we know the moves of a chess game are still in the public domain and cannot be copyrighted. As Arne pointed out, if someone in the audience posts the moves on a webpage from their cellphone in real time, there's absolutely no way – legally and in principle – to prevent or forbid this, making a paid live transmission rather pointless in practice. We've had this discussion before on this site, and it's a pity that Chessbase decided not to fight the Bulgarian Chess Federation in court, earlier this year, when they weren't allowed to transmit the moves of the Kamsky-Topalov and later the M-Tel Masters.
10-10 after four rounds
It's about time that we start looking at the event itself, since the moves of the games are luckily provided by the organizers after the rounds have finished. And so we know that after four rounds, the score is exactly level: 10-10. Both matches won 3-2 twice, one time with the white pieces and one time with the black pieces. The drawing percentage is as low as 40% so far.
Nigel Short scored a nice victory against Werle in the first round, using one of his many "oldschool" 1.e4 weapons, this time 5.Nc3 in the Ruy Lopez. Also avoiding mainlines, as he's always done, Luke McShane had a bit of a rusty comeback to top level chess with a loss against Ivan Sokolov, who's playing for Bosnia again but is still Dutch enough for this event. Erwin L'Ami defeated Gawain Jones in the most spectacular game of the round.
Nigel Short: a world-class expert in non-Ruy Lopez 1.e4 systems
The next day England levelled the score (and so both teams had won their match 3-2 playing the black pieces!). Werle lost his second game, this time to Michael Adams who scores very well with his new love, the Tartakower variation of the QGD, which has always been a favourite of that other great English player sitting right next to him, Nigel Short. He also won after surviving a strong attack by Smeets that involved a long-term piece sac. Van Wely struck back for the Dutch team by beating Jones - it's still asking for trouble to try the KID against KingLoek (although Black was actually doing fine after the opening, using the rare move 7...Nh5).
Thanks to another 3-2 victory England then took a small lead on Monday. Short won his third game in a row in another 1.e4 speciality: the Two Knights. Sokolov seemed well prepared for the topical 8.Bd3 but in this game he couldn't prove that Black's activity provides enough compensation, and on move 30 a blunder quickly ended the game.
Adams lost to Smeets, with White in a... Petroff! The English GM tried to sharpen the position but was caught in an excellent piece of Dutch preparation starting with 14...Bb4 and 15...Bxg4! that eventually led to a winning ending.
Adams' sharp set-up boomeranged back on him as Smeets unleashed strong preparation
The victory was brought home by McShane, who defeated Van Wely by refuting the Dutchman's opening play with some sharp calculation.
McShane started his game quietly and then refuted Van Wely's 'refutation'
Yesterday the Dutch team levelled the score again. Smeets was well prepared for Jones' Dragon and introduced what appeared to be a strong novelty (16.Rc1) in the 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1 Nxd4 11.e5 line. Black never seemed close to equalizing - best was probably 20...Qxd4 21.Qc3 Qd6 but 22.Be4 is still pretty annoying. Van Wely beat Howell in a very good game, recovering from his loss to McShane, who went on yesterday by beating Werle, who only collected half a point so far.
In the all-play-all group, Timman continues the good form he showed at the Open Dutch in Dieren as he's leading with 3.5/4. Living legend Viktor Kortchnoi is one 1.5; he lost to Cherniaev, then beat Trent, drew with Davies and then lost to Hendriks.
Hendriks vs Kortchnoi in round 4 of the all-play-all group
All photos © Barry Martin, more here
Games (Scheveningen group on top, followed by all-play-all group)
Click on the pairings at the top of the board to reveal a drop down list of all the games.
Game viewer by ChessTempo
- Official website
- Games in PGN: Scheveningen group | All-play-all group
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Wow, Loek, what's up with the jacket? ;-)
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The thing is: it's not black & white, as in chess. As always, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Companies like Google and Facebook have proven that the advertisement business model can be profitable. Other companies have worked succesfully with the "freemium" model: give certain services for free, and ask for money for extra services. This is my main point: the live transmission should be the main reason to attract people to the website, and money can be earned by either adding an interesting service on top of that, or simply selling ads which can be put next to the live board transmission. It's nice that the earnings are used for a good cause, but for this it's quite possible that a donation button would be a more succesful try.
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Castro, it's the 'not free equals quality' argument that worries me much more! :-)
As for the possibility of transmitting the moves through 1 person who has paid the 5 pounds: ChessVibes is not a live game viewing site, but I don't see why ICC or ChessBase shouldn't do it.
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5 years 4 months ago
Mr. Keene,
Would you be so kind as to let us know the number of people who elected to pay, once the tournament has concluded of course? It would certainly be an interesting addition to the debate on paying for live transmission of chess games.
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5 years 4 months ago
Re. an earlier post by Raymond Keene. No Ray, I'm nowhere implying that you were writing for The Times at that time (1983). Besides, that fact has absolutely nothing to do with my copyright case. I'm merely stating that in my experience you're a man without shame.
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I don't see why paying should lead to better quality - after all, many expensive services are also rather poor. The connection is especially strange considering that the paid money doesn't go to the organizers or the players, but to UK Schools. Does the schooling program guarantee better quality for GM tournaments or something? Where's the link?
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5 years 4 months ago
I wish GM Keene would learn not to type in caps.
5 pounds per day is $10 US dollars a day which after 10 rounds is $100 dollars... I can play in about 5 small local tournaments for the outrageous price of your entry. Or.,.. I can wait a few days until some cool site like chessvibes or others copy the games you are charging over. Which will a smart chess player do?!
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Why to condemn the organizers for asking money for the online transmission? Probably they have all the rights to do so. I remember buying printed reports of chess tournaments. Till today one can find in 2nd hand bookshops such broschures.
Take online streeming as a "new" media of reporting about the games. If they wish to bill it, why not? You may haul up the organizers for not adding any "premium" service to the ordinary transmission, but why should they add if they do not wish?
I can ask all my friends from tomorrow entering my garden to send 2 EURs on the bank account of the local fire-brigade. I wonder how many of them would still visit me in a week time.
Time will decide whether their business strategy works or not.
Let it be...
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ps. I wonder why this report about not paying 5 pounds appears on a Dutch site? :-)
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If the proceeds go to a good cause I can't see anything against this experiment. In essence it is not different of selling lottery-tickets for a good cause.
Giving free boards to schools is quite a good idea. Earlier this year I had a conversation with the youth coordinator of the Flemish chess assocation and he believed that the way forward was scholastic chess. Not only to recruit new players but to raise awareness in general. Convincing people to sponsor chess is a lot easier if they or their kids have played chess in school.
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If, indeed,
"if someone in the audience posts the moves on a webpage from their cellphone in real time, there's absolutely no way – legally and in principle – to prevent or forbid this"
Then pls explain to me why to worry?? Just tell me which site have already paid 5 pounds, put there a person, and is already transmiting this tournament real time for free. ChessVibes? Don't think so...
Come on, I also want to watch it for free, but let's not oversimplify!
As for the rest, I agree that the argument "free equals bad quality" is obviously wrong.
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Totally agree, Tom, but you're not addressing the point that the way it's done, by suddenly dropping a free service, isn't satisfactory. You can only compare it to lottery-tickets in a world where the lottery-tickets used to be free of charge! Nothing wrong with charity, but don't start charging for the basics. The scores of a soccer or tennis match are also freely available; it wouldn't make sense to start a service like "pay for real-time Wimbledon scores updates, money goes to Taiwan reconstruction".
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We are used to have games broadcasted freely. And I think not many tournaments will follow this example. But I do not see anything wrong with it.
I do have a few bones to pick with the article though: first off all it might have been interesting to contact the organisers to hear their part of the story (officially). Secondly: you have misquoted GM Keene comentary from the other thread: he clearly stated 50p per day which comes down to 5p per game which becomes 5£ and 50p per game per day in the article... . That just sloppy.
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correction: Keene said that the 5£ one time charge comes down to 50p per day and 5p per game in his commentary.
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On a different note, isn't it interesting that ChessBase doesn't seem to cover this tournament at all? Does it have anything to do with all these controversial issues?
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Miles Coach
5 years 4 months ago
First - unfortunate that Mr Keene chose to address the chess public here in caps - shouting. An obvious net faux pas, which some may take him to be out of touch with this environment, though perhaps unfairly.
Secondly, the lack of transmission may result in less punters attracted to the site - hence less publicity for sponsors. Indeed as in previous years, the internet coverage has been a little backward, though it is much improved this year.
Thirdly - yes, as noted already, in an environment where is everything is free, it may cause more than a few arched ayebrows, possibly even raise the odd hackle to see that payment is being requested.
Fourthy, perhaps unfortunate for the organisers that Mr Keene is the public face of this discussion as he does not have a particularly good reputation in the chess world due to certain alleged past financial irregularities.
Fifthly - free equals bad. Clearly nonsense, again revealing Mr Keene's lack of familiarity with the topic in question. He may learn a lot by looking at open source, e.g. Linux, Moodle to name just two. As it happens, their own website appears rather amateurish in a number of ways. For example - the basics: White text on black background a big no-no in web design. Hard on the eyes. Even for Star Wars scrolling fans.
Miles C
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well perhaps some chessjournalist can ask them that, should be interesting...
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"The scores of a soccer or tennis match are also freely available; it wouldn't make sense to start a service like "pay for real-time Wimbledon scores updates, money goes to Taiwan reconstruction".
I actually did laugh out loud at this!
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Bert de Bruut
5 years 4 months ago
Well, Peter, you're not only hosting a website-for-free, you are also giving free entrepreneurial advice! Take heed, Mr. Keene, it won't cost you a penny and might bring you a few more (or maybe quite a few more) customers!
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@Arne Moll
For some reason ICC and ChessBase (and all the rest) aren't broadcasting it real time. Sure, I'd love someone did, and maybe it should be ok to do it, but it's not as clear as Peter puts it. It's a discusion already taken, ok, including my total disagreement about comparing to transmiting scores of tennis, though I joint "nick burrows" in his lol :-)
@Tom Vananderoye
Sorry, but the question is about the obligation of paying to see the transmision, not about the simple paying. If you find ok to charge anyone if the money goes to school chess, why wouldn't you agree with charging when the money goes to the organizer's pockets? I think you put wrongly the question. Can or cannot the organization charge anyone to see the live broadcast (and therefore charge rights to any site wanting to perform such a broadcast themselves)?
That is the question.
The destination of the money, and it's merits, should not be mixed here (although it was originaly made by the organizer himself, understandably :-) ).
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5 years 4 months ago
@Arne Moll (11:35am): In the meantime, Chessbase has a report on the Staunton Memorial. I think it is simple: With several events going on in parallel, they don't have _daily_ coverage for all of them - and their priority goes to the FIDE GP and the Zurich event.
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5 years 4 months ago
In general, I still think that receiving money from live broadcasting could benefit chess economy, but after reading all comments:
1. I agree that not many people will pay 5 pounds to watch the live games if after the rounds they can get the same for free, at least some extra feature like video retransmission or something else should be included.
2. I think Peter Doggers's ideas are actually very good. Something like asking for donations instead of charging could be much more appealing to the public.
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You guys are really great. For the past 3 years, there have been non-stop complaints about the Staunton not having live game coverage - "How can any serious tournament not even broadcast the games live?", etc. You all agreed that live coverage was a sine qua non. This year, they provide live coverage, and you all shout "Why should I pay to see this, there is no added value, I can just get the games for free a few hours later". In other words, now you all agree that live coverage is of little or no added value at all!
I don't really know why the organisers bother doing live coverage or even having a website. They should just enjoy their tournament privately and forget about you cretins. By going out of their way to publish the games for your entertainment, they are simply setting pearls before swine - or perhaps that should be "pearls before termites", to use Steve Giddins' terminology.
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Right. And there are so many organizers out there who would like to hold a chess tournament just to see a few games privately, and don't bother at all about the promotion of the royal game in general. They'd really want to spend their money on some strong players playing and spending time in a luxurious hotel, while nobody else notices, and no website or newspaper reports. That kind of money spending is probably limited to desperate millionaires who do anything to impress their bored wives.
We must all be grateful to have two patrons, Mr Mol and Mr Van Oosterom (who happen to have made their money running one and the same company), who are smarter than that and share a real love for the game. (I do wonder what Mr Mol thinks of the reasoning of Mr Giddins & Keene on the live transmission.)
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You are clearly somehow connected to the tournament Mr Tractor - why else the insults?
It sounds just like the Staunton organisers pre-tournament brainstorm...."Now how can we get these cretins to cough up £5 for an identical service everyone else provides free? Not sure if they'll go for it, it's like laying pearls before swine"
There's only 1 person sounding like a cretin here Mr farmyard vehicle.
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Michael X Tractor's comment does raise an interesting question: why are chess tournaments held anyway? I don't think the answer is so simple. Nevertheless, so far I've only heard very bad arguments in favour of paid live coverage. Can't anyone really think of a good one?
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isn't it interesting that ChessBase doesn't seem to cover this tournament at all? Does it have anything to do with all these controversial issues?
To be fair I think they may have been expecting Steve Giddins to write their reports, and Mr Giddins has been ill.
Personally I don't mind much if they charge for transmission - I do mind if they act like jerks about it. However, I suspect that they will do themselves and chess more harm than good by charging, since the amount of money they will make is likely to be realtively small and the number of people who might access thsite for free potentially quite large.
I don't think it's quite the same as the Topalov-Kamsky business, where the question was not charging, but whether any site that wanted could transmit the games live. Now I can see why people want that, but the truth is that if you want live transmissions then you need sponsors to pay for it, and if you want sponsors to pay for it then it's probable that they're going to want exclusive rights.
Back to live coverage - for this tournament it doesn't matter so much, to be honest. It's when the world championships and Olympiads and super-tournaments happen that people want to see it live. I'd be interested to learn how many people have paid their fiver (or two pound fifty as it now apparently is). Perhaps we could have a sweeptake on the figure?
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"That kind of money spending is probably limited to desperate millionaires who do anything to impress their bored wives". Peter Doggers
Oh dear, Peter - do I detect a green-eyed monster in the house? LOL
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I'm always amazed about why so many educated, non-insulting, unpretentious and respectful posts got so many problems time after time here, whereas others...
Some people seem to respect and treat normaly only when insulted or witnessing insults. "Let us give credit and answer this guy. He looks serious, by the amount of barbarity. And, above all, God forbid us correcting him in public!" seems the policy.
It's so bizarre that can only fall in the laughable category!
Congratulations to the educators, excelent examples!
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From the Chessbase report:
"The tournament website is carrying daily reports by Steve Giddins, who describes the highlights of each round's play. Steve is assisted by some silicon friends, and the carbon-based entity of Tournament Director, GM Ray Keene. These reports are available free of charge."
Some finesse! :-)
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Rob Brown
5 years 4 months ago
If English chess kids are desperately in need of plastic sets let me know and I will gladly purchase one on their behalf. In the meantime, charging for the live transmission of the Staunton Memorial games has simply prompted me to spend my net chess browsing time in Zurich, in the Acropolis tourney and in the exciting contest unfolding in Armenia. As for the goings on at the Staunton Memorial, I will simply wait a few days then replay the games as if they were being played in real time and remain convinced that Ray Keene and the other buck hustlers demean themselves by indulging in hucksterism.
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