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subset: commoncrawl


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Commemorated February 27 and on the first Saturday in November
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Rejoice, O Father Raphael, adornment of the holy Church! Thou art champion of the True Faith, seeker of the lost, consolation of the oppressed, father to orphans and friend of the poor, peacemaker and good shepherd, joy of all the Orthodox, son of Antioch, boast of America. Intercede with Christ God for us and for all who honor thee.
Kontakion - Tone 8
You were a guardian and a defender of the Church¹s teaching; you protected your flock from false doctrines and confirmed them in the true faith. O holy father Raphael, son of Syria and glory of North America, always intercede before the Lord that our souls may be saved.


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nethervoid - I'm with a 10-man-only guild as well, and we just got him down last night. Our winning strategy (which worked MUCH better than anything else we tried) was a little different than what the tankspot video suggested:
When the blood beasts spawned, the tanks picked them up and tanked them. All dps (melee and ranged) switched to burn them down quickly, then got back on the boss.
I suspect that the reason this worked for us is that the ranged dps didn't have to worry about moving around, placing traps, etc, so they were able to put out a lot more dps. Also, with the melee helping on the blood beasts, they don't stick around long enough to give Saurfang much of a boost in terms of blood power.
I'm not saying it's an optimal strategy for everyone, but it worked out really nicely for us. Might be worth a try, anyway.
|TGM UI |Fury Warrior Guide | How To Use Landsoul's Spreadsheet| The Numbers Game |
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Being GM of a strictly 10-men guild I can not say much about 25ppl version of this encounter, but we downed 10ppl version yesterday with one pull (here is the link).
We used 2 tanks strategy (pally and war) and had 2 healers (myself as a tree and disc priest). Dps group had 1 melee (rogue) and 5 ranged (surv hunter, boomkin, shadow priest, destro warlock and elem shaman). Hunter was putting traps as much like tankspot's video guide suggested. With 5 ranged damage dealers blood beasts were rarely doing it through the trap zone and died very quickly. Tanks were changing each other after every rune. Disc was putting shields on everyone who got hurt and I was mostly HoTting the tanks and raid, rarely casting direct heals. It felt almost like healing 5men heroic to me - simple and boring.
After boss hit soft enrage we used bloodlust and nuked him down to 13-15%. Then we just continued our routine and finished him at something like 95-99 blood energies, right before he was ready to put the first mark on raid.
I think with some effort this event could be solo healed with disc priest. Well timed shields, strict positioning of the raid and synergism of tanks make this fight a joke.
I stand corrected. The fight was easy to heal for our healers 10-man.
Disc and Holy pally kept the raid up.
I am the spearhead. I am relentless. I am the last line of defense. I am a Warrior.
Thanks for this guide.
As a Paladin in the game. I found that its possible to avoid getting both the Mark of the Fallen Champion, and quick removal of Boiling Blood.
Mark of the Fallen Champion -
Mages and Paladins can avoid getting this altogether by casting Divine Shield or Iceblock just before he casts it. Having targets target enabled, and paying attention, you can see Saurfang switch targets just before he casts it.
Also casting Divine Shield when you have this debuff, will also stop the victim from taking damage until the duration of Divine Shield has finished (12 seconds) - Lightens the load on the healers, and stops Saurfang from gaining any Blood Power.
Combat Ressing - I found it wasn't the best idea to use this. lawl
Boiling Blood -
As mentioned in the guides, it can and should be dispelled immediately.
I was healing this encounter tonight with my guild, although it didn't go smoothly with me healing, and switched to tanking.
I found that using Hand of Protection on a person who cannot dispell this on his/her own to remove it for them. This was experimental and turns out it removed it.
So many people running with too many people at range and I simply don't understand this. We got our first kill today in 25 man, we only had 10 people stand a ranged and spread out far enough that blood nova gives the boss significantly less stacks. Healers and ranged DPS can actually stand in melee. Our raid only did 101k dps but still got the kill just fine.
After banging our heads against a wall last week and some of this week, trying normal approaches to Saurfang without letting anyone die, we decided that's just not the way to go. Minimal gains from Blood Boil, Blood Nova, and Blood Beasts, and he was still getting a 6th or 7th mark off by 15% or so, and this hurts when frenzied. That's too many people to toss cooldowns on to reduce the damage (since putting damage reduction cooldowns on the tank doesn't affect the damage the marks get).
So we decided to try what was suggested earlier in this thread but not responded to: Divine Intervention. We had 2 Paladins in our raid, myself (Holy w/ Righteous Fury for adds) and a Ret.
The first mark would die, just because 5% of his HP is minimal and I believe this strategy can be carried over to Heroic mode (15% of an increased health pool should still put you ahead of the game with 1 down). The second mark, which came around 35-38%, would be DI'd by myself. If it occured when adds were about to spawn or just spawned, ranged would need to be extra careful. I'd then get Rebirthed or use Soulstone. The third mark would come out around 12-15% I believe, and our Ret would use Divine Intervention as well. Depending on whether we needed him up, he might get Rebirthed too. Saurfang would die well before getting another mark out. This leaves you dealing with 0 mark damage throughout the fight, minimal mark BP gains, and only letting him heal a single time.
There are risks and a sense of lottery to this strategy, unfortunately. If the mark is cast on either Paladin and you don't have backups, things get hairy. The first one can be prevented by Bubbling just before the mark is cast. The person set to die will never be one of the Paladins if this is used. By the second mark, it's likely that Forbearance isn't off yet, so Hand of Protection on oneself may not be viable. This strategy is best used if you have 3-4 Paladins, in case one of them gets marked.
DI lasts 3 minutes, so if you're taking a bit longer to kill Saurfang, the second mark (first DI) will need to be calling out when their DI is almost over. It should only come off near the end in the worst case, not in enough time for it to feed him another one.
The most important thing about a DI strategy, though, is that those with DI will have to be watching the pace of the battle very very carefully. If Deathbringer Saurfang dies when DI is up, the DI'd players will not get credit for the kill. That means no achievement, no emblems, and no loot. This can be combated easily enough though: when Saurfang is about 4-5 seconds from death, have anyone with DI cancel it. About a second or two before doing so, have a priest (or two if you want to be safe) start channeling Divine Hymn to ensure they don't die (healer reaction may not be ready for the cancelled DI's, and there's nothing worse than having a boss at 50k HP and it healing for 1.5mil).
We went in with 5 healers plus myself (it's difficult to do strategic healing when you're responsible for getting aggro on the adds), and ended up losing 2 to the first 2 marks. 3 effective healers was plenty to finish out the encounter this way.
We had 7 ranged DPS and 5.5 healers stand at range for a grand total of 13. Our 3 shadow priests stayed at melee and never switched to adds, because 7 DPS was overkill. Boomkin in the middle with Holy Paladin, 3 ranged DPS on each side, with the Boomkin ready to focus on one side if one of the ranged had to get DI'd. Our ranged also paired up and stood on top of each other, since the difference between Saurfang gaining 0 BP from Blood Nova and 2 BP from it was negligible (since he only seems to gain BP from non-initial targets of Blood Nova).
Last edited by Trexokor; 12-19-2009 at 07:09 AM.
In any case, here is how the strategy works.
Tank the boss where he stands and facing straight forward, in order to control where the adds will spawn. A warlock should use Shadowfury whenever adds spawn. This is the single most important part to the encounter because that 3 seconds of stun time gives all your kiters time to get off a full cast which is pretty much gaurenteed to give them agro. Kiters and ranged DPS are assigned very specific targets.
Position 2 of your healers by the two braziers on the sides of the boss.
Between the boss and the gunship, you have two ranged DPS spots, one of the two will be kiting the add that spawns behind the tank. These two spots are the only two you should need to double stack.
Further out from them in a semi circle you have your paladin healers with Righteous Fury on both sides. This positions them between all of your kiters which will get adds generally heading towards them at the start.
Far out to the left and right by where the wall angles out you have two hunters who kite the two adds that spawn on the bosses sides. You have caster DPS that are in the melee helping to kill those adds as they are kited away split them evenly so they all die before they get to the hunter or to minimize the amount of actual kiting the hunter has to do. Also the reason why the DPS spots closest to the gunship were double stacked is because they would be able to help with the ones being kited out to the right or left after killing theirs if need be.
The two adds that spawn behind the boss are stuned and burned by melee quickly, they will typically be able to kill both before any of the kited three are killed simply because there is more DPS being put onto them. Your last two healers, good place for a discipline priest in particular, and remaining ranged dps would be piled in with the melee. The ranged DPS in there would have assigned targets and be helping to kill the ones being kited away. Assign them to help the hunters kiting out to the sides in particular since hunters can use distracting shot if need be.
Two adds kited out to the sides were slowed by a slowing trap. We had myself, a Moonkin, in one of the groups closest to the gunship to Typhoon the middle one if it needed it. The traps should be placed around the bottom step where the stairs angle. Enhancement shaman drops earthbind in the melee so snare the adds immediately as well while they make their way out to the traps to maximize the slowing effect.
By reducing the blood power he gains in this fashion by reducing the number of targets he hits with blood nova to a very controled number we were able to kill him in 6:40 with only two deaths averaging 101k raid dps.
If you're more curious about how the positioning and everything in this strategy was done I do have a video of our first kill and you can send me a PM and I'll get you a link.
1 prot pally
1 prot war
1 dps dk
1 rogue
1 resto shaman
1 resto druid
1 mage
1 boomkin
1 dps war
1 holy pally
7 attempts, down on the last attempt. The avg dps was around 25k for the wipes and the succesful was 30k. The big change was that I (arcane mage) went to an arcane+slow spec. Boomkin and me on the adds everyone on the boss. Wipes were due to ineffective dps on the adds and eventual buildup of blood. It's basically a dps+healing check with a blood production management built in. We aimed to have the first mark at below 45%. Hero at the start when everyone is one the boss.
Great Guides Guys!
Can't wait for my guild to reach this boss!
This is a question for Lore:
What is that boss debuff-monitor at the top-center of your screen called and where did you find it?
Thanks in advance!
I was wondering a few things, one has anyone thought about tanking him near the portal? to give more room to move around and kite? plus you dont have to worry about line of sight issues?
and 2, how do i see how much BP he is getting in world of logs? weve tried this guy 6 times now and were just not getting it down, although we were healing the people with mark....this time were going to let the first 1-2 die, and we might try the DI trick or for the 3rd and 4th...
And about the "ice block/divine shield" before he casts it, do you just have all your mages and paladins bubble when he gets to 99 BP or do you try to see who he is targeting first?
10 man we've killed him multiple times even with random pulltogether extra groups after the badges got it done with the gone and made a mess achievement.
25 man however has been banging head against the wall time..........completely differerent fight. A couple of strategies read here will be brought on bored and hopefully we get a run at it without our major problems before.
We caught it and end of run last time and then had a major stack of vital raiders unable to turn up for the other raid nights.
Tonight we should do it hopefully
Well my guild has been stuck at Saurfang for a while now. We've easily wiped 20+ times so far (heh heh, Hunter = cheap wipes XD). We're starting to get our strategy refined now, though, but are using one tank.
Composition has changed a bit each day (3 days at Saurfang for me, last week I wasn't in the group), but we always have:
Paladin Tank
DK DPS (our raid leader)
2 Melee DPS (classes varying)
2 Healers (Druid always, other varied)
4 Ranged (Hunter, 2 Warlocks or 2 Mages, 1 of whichever wasn't doubled)
Our main problem is that we aren't getting the adds down fast enough, and, personally, I get behind with using traps and misdirect for the beasts so much that I have hardly any time to DPS the boss after the initial burn of about 15%. I did, however, use a macro to keep Aimed Shot up at least 90% of the time on Saurfang, which helped by a TON, especially with one tank.
The lowest we ever got him was about 5.9M or so, the adds being the major problem.
Aimed Shot made things go far more smoothly, and gave us 900K more progression. We tried having me use Freezing Arrow so I could stay mostly on the boss, but that still didn't work.
1) they changed it so you literally can't one tank it, get another tank. At least it's insanely much more difficult to tank and you're "not doing it right" if you try to.
Here's your proof: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/12/2197...ng-hotfix.html
Basically, every time he hits your tank, during the time the debuff is up on him, Deathbringer will heal for 10X that amount. So you're looking at him healing probably 5 million+ during the course of the fight.
2) Ranged usually don't get time to dps the boss on this guy when you're going for your first kill.
Your job is to control the adds via MD and traps in this fight, screw your dps.
Last edited by Wars; 12-20-2009 at 07:11 PM.
We might just be undergeared, idk.


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and the 0.667 RPS needed for weakened blows?
100% uptime = 60 Rage per 6s or 10 RPS
Hit/Exp capped white swings: 5 RPS
SS + SnB procs: 2.667 RPS
Enrage up: 1.25 RPS
Shout: 0.333 RPS
That's already 9.25 RPS right there, good for SB every <6.5s
Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior SpreadsheetOriginally Posted by Ion
Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides
and the 0.667 RPS needed for weakened blows?
"Enrage up: 1.25 RPS" is just 25% extra on top of the white swings doesn't say anything about uptime. With incite glyph, ultimatum procs, dragonroar, berserker rage (that's still in the game right?) its possible to get high uptime on enrage.
I think they are trying to get "100%", not "high".
Enrage uptime: while SB is up, crit block chance is basicly doubled, so expect high chance there. On top of that, you have Dragon Roar & other melee crits to fill in the gaps.
Even with Weakened Blows & a less than 100% Enrage uptime, you can still get >80% uptime on SB, which can be fitted around boss casts or specials. The major issue I see will be with Shield Barrier, because you won't be able to have both up at the same time reliably, unlike Druids, DKs or Paladins (haven't checked Monks yet).
Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior SpreadsheetOriginally Posted by Ion
Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides
Of the 50 or so times I've tanked the one dungeon included in the beta, I have not been able to ever achieve anywhere close to 100% uptime. Are you getting on beta? If so, possible to log it? Because for me even with shield block up I may get one enrage proc and watch it dwindle to nothing.
Also, Dragon Roar is currently broken and never crits unless you pop Reck.
can we confirm that we don't gain rage when a target Dodges, Parries, or are missed. and can we confirm we gain 5 Rage per swing on beta?
Last edited by Tengenstein; 04-22-2012 at 07:27 PM.
Shield barrier as a whole sorta makes me sad. Completely removing our "active mitigation" for a magic cooldown almost equal to what druids get passively seems like a horrible mechanic.
Also I know this is off topic from this thread but did they remove the free heal on DS even when they miss/dodge/parry? Or can dk's still completely ignore hit/exp still?
and thats witha 2.6second weapon right?
@takethecake, mmo-champs latest datamining says death strike can't be parried. The omission of the words dodge and miss would seem to indicate that they'll need to hit their caps as well. Not sure if they get runes refunded or not for missing to make not being capped less utterly painful.
Last edited by fengosa; 04-23-2012 at 06:27 AM.
Does savage defense/bloodshield/pally equivalent work against magic now?
I don't think we're really all that badly off. its not all that different to how we handle shield block now, with the 20% magic damage reduction for the 6 seconds or the extra crit block, except this is also more flexible in regards to timings. I've a bit of reading, they changed Savage Defence from 40% physical damage reduction to 40% Dodge a while back. Have they changed it back? If Bloodshield is staying the same as live then it only absorbs melee, not magic, so DKs are gonna have to rely on Boneshield and AMS, Dunno how Pallies deal with it; Divine Protection? We're pretty much the only tank that can roll a magic damage reduction for most of the fight if we want and and switch almsot at will between anti-magic and anti-melee modes.
I think we're gonna have to ask a Druid. If you're right though we might still be on par. Apologies for the preemptive doomsday calling.
Perhaps a seperate thread cataloging the up to date mechanics for each tank class would be appropriate. Just so we can see them all side by side......
you could jsut use the wowhead MoP database and go throught the datamined changes listed on MMO-C


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Thread: stocking advice/opinions wanted
Soft or hard water is related to dissolved minerals in the water. The more minerals, the harder the water. Some fish like hard water some (like neons/discus like very soft water.) One point, very soft water can suffer dangerous pH swings.
By the way, you say you are nearly cycled - so what are your water parameters? esp. the nitrite levels; also, what level nitrate is in your tap water?
10-13-2012, 05:32 AM #12Member Platy
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I go to an lfs to get my water checked every now and then. Today's results was: Ammonia 0, Nitrite, 3ish ppm and i've no idea about nitrate (i didnt ask). I'm not sure about the nitrate in my tap water, i didnt even kno a stat like that was important. i'll find out tomorrow, my lfs may know, right?
EDIT: apparently .3 ppm for my tap water. can i ask, wat does the nitrate in my tap water matter? does it actually effect my cycling in some way? or is it a precautionary thing for some places?
Last edited by Seppen; 10-13-2012 at 05:39 AM.
I really hope the nitrIte level in the aquarium isn't really 3 ppm because that would kill most fish very fast and injure even the toughest, fatally. You need a liquid test kit for ammonia, nitrIte, and nitrAtes. Can't cycle without one if you have fish in the tank. Don't waste your money on the espensive (dry) test strip kits - they don't last (remain accurate) and are way too expensive.
As for nitrates in the tap, no big deal (I have them) if they are low. If the lfs reading is correct (0.3 ppm) that is essentially zero and can be completely ignored. Nitrates above forty is very bad but most common fish can handle under 40 ppm. Special fish (clean water like neons/cardinals) need under 5 ppm nitrates.
Hopefully the nitrite reading may be off (too high but it also may be correct.) No matter, your tank is Not cycled. The bacteria that convert nitrIte into nitrAte haven't grown, yet. You are in the most dangerous phase of a fish based cycle since nitrItes are significantly more toxic to fish and even to plants. You need a 100% water change (but don't touch your filter media! That has the bacteria growning!) Check your water every day (that is why you need the test kit) and change the water until the nitrites are under 0.1 ppm.
By the way, your water changes of 20-30% a week are too small: nitrates will build up too fast in such a small tank. Use the web site in my signature to determine w/C ammount and number. Also gives advice on amount of fish for the tank/filter.
Best of luck. (aside: some aquarium salt @ 1 tsp/10 gal can help fish exposed to nitrites. Remember with water changes, the amount of salt removed needs to be replace. Salt can ONLY be removed by water changes so don't add too much, either. Error on under adding with water changes. After nitrites go to zero, do a 100% WC to remove all salt from the tank.)
Last edited by Cermet; 10-13-2012 at 01:52 PM.
10-13-2012, 03:06 PM #14Member Platy
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Wow, i was under the impression that i was doing fine, that my nitrites were alright. im hoping its not 3 now that i kno its horribly dangerous, so i'll be going to get my water retested to make sure. my water had higher readings than that(darker pink on the test strip and yesterday it was at a reading halfwy from zero and that darker shade of pink) so i kno there IS bacteria growing just now enough. about my water changes u misunderstood, right now, my water changes are happening every 2 days at 20%. actually i have been doing this since my ammonia spiked weeks ago and had my water checked every 2 days. In any case thanks cermet, i'll be taking ur advice immediately.
I would stick to the cardinals or neons and the ottos and not have the platies at all much less 6 of them. 20 gallons is really not a very big tank for that many fish. Platies also give birth so that will add to your stock.
Shrimp will not jump out of your tank. I have 4 open top tank with shrimp in them.
Neon tetra disease is only passed on from live fish feeding off the carcus of dead infected fish. Neon tetra disease is also not limited to just neons but all fish can get it. You also do not need the otto's unless you have a planted tank but of course can have them. But I think you'd have a happier tank with the shrimp, ottos and neons (or cardinals) and omit the platies.
Agree with Cermet on those water changes. Bacteria is in the filter, not in the water. You can change as much water as you want as long as you add back the same temp as you remove and add your dechlorinator before adding the water. You also need your own testing liquid so you can test daily. Once a tank is cycled, that testing is hardly needed anymore as long as you maintain the filter properly.
10-13-2012, 03:59 PM #16Member Platy
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0Originally Posted by steeler1Originally Posted by Lady Hobbs
i have taken a pretty strong liking to platies, plus i already have 2 which is wat im using to cycle the tank. both males but i may consider giving one up since one of them is harassing the other.
I'm glad to kno that i can keep shrimp in an open top, i like the cherry shrimps and the crystal shrimp so i'll be looking into those :)
Otos are another fish i saw and really liked, they look cooler than the cory cats anyway. My tank will be planted so my otos should be happy in my tank.
I'll be getting that test; originally, i figured i could use the store's free testing services for a while and follow w/e advice the store guys tell me. now the guys kno me and even remember my last test since i go there a few times a week. :D
Last edited by Seppen; 10-13-2012 at 04:02 PM.
+1 to Lady Hobbs on the stocking - Cardinals are very pretty fish in a large school and with clean water, are tough fish. Use 78 - 82 F and keep nitrates under 5 ppm and they'll really do well. Some cories as clean up crew and that would be a very active tank.
Seppen, it's not that I hate them (which I do) but because this is a 20 gallon tank. Patties swimming around trailing poop a yard long doesn't do much for me, either!
You could get another small schooling fish like glowlight tetras, black neons or something if you want a second species that will be a low bioload.
10-18-2012, 03:00 AM #19Member Platy
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0Originally Posted by Cermet
6 platy (sorry, but i really like them) I have 2 currently
10 neon tetras (i'll have to keep an eye on them nipping at No Name)
2 otocinclus
3 khuli loach (something tells me u guys wont like anything less than 5 khuli loaches; so if thats the case, wat other bottom feeders options would u say i have? and fyi i dont like cory cats plus they would compete with the otos for algae and bettas like shrimps, right?)
and No Name (i DO have a back up plan if the neons nip his fins)
Last edited by Seppen; 10-18-2012 at 03:04 AM.
Neons won't nip anything but maybe each other and the Cories will eat a alage tablet but won't compeat with other fish if it's growing.


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text: 5 A great game, but not for everyoneiqqillon | 16/02/2010 | See all iqqillon's reviews (2)Let me start with, it's a great game. One of the best I have on my PS3 and one of the greatest of 2010 at the moment.The action is great and it has a unique style and difficulty. But both of those aren't for everyone.The style is heavy on the demon and angel motive with a lot of over the top sexist poses and impossible action scenes thrown in. Though fun, some people might detest this.One time you're fighting burning angels, the next you are ridding a bike on a missle flying into space! It's insane!The combo system is near perfect. Since the game slowly forces you to master it. After finishing on Normal you'll have a general idea, after Hard you'll be really good, but after Inf.Climax you'll be great at it. Do note that the difficulty is indeed insane at some points, and I mean "Demon's Souls eat your heart out" insane.Most people also complain about issues that came from the porting. Since the latest patch these things are almost not an issue anymore.There is some slowdown when there are 10-20+ enemies on the screen, but the loadingtimes and screen-tearing are fixed mostly!Try the demo on PSN to see if you like the style and the combatsystem. But I tend to just yell BUY IT. It's a great game!


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Healthy joints contain synovial fluid. This fluid lubricates and provides nutrients to the joints. One change that happens with OA is the synovial fluid becomes thinner and less useful as a lubricant for the joint.
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The survival backpack company called Gregsport used to have a large presence in the southern California area with its large factory and assembly plant. They employed nearly 5,000 people with the majority of which being Asian American located in the greater Los Angeles area.
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Gregsport is a company that specialized in making outdoor and camping equipment for the normal camping consumer. They also have developed a special line of adventure outdoor equipment for the armed forces including the Army Rangers, Navy Seals, and even the National Guard. Many have said the outdoor equipment from Gregsport is second to none.
We interviewed one employee named Lee who was proudly holding his personal bug out bag in hand while we talked with him. He said that he and his family depended on the company and the employment to create a life here in the states. Lee said that he was proud to have worked for the company and that he loves the products that he had the privilege to make over the past 15 years. Lee went on to say that Gregsport pioneered the idea of making a bail out bag checklist (realsurvivalist.com/condor-pack-review) to help dooms day believers prepare for any type of emergency situation. Lee stated that he has mixed feelings about the decision to close the plant. He said that he still loves the products, but he feels betrayed by the company he has worked for all of these years.
Unfortunately, the corporate officials did not hear the worker's cries to keep a US based manufacturing plant. The LA plant is set to close its doors in October and consequently lay off its entire staff. The staff of 5,000 consisted largely of Asian Americans.
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Going back to our interview with Lee, he said that he is still struggling with the idea of finding a new job after all these years of making bug out backpacks, but he is hopeful that the strong Asian community in the south west will connect with each other and provide for those who have lost so much in this corporate decision. Send us a note if you have any more stories about this type of thing happening to your loved ones and what you were able to do to counter act it.


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I'm starting process of finishing my basement and will be creating a billiard room. Would like to know if anyone out there has ideas about subfloor and flooring that will be good for 1600+ pound 10 ft antique victor pool table. I have been researching platon, delta and DMX type materials which would be covered with osb, or rigid foam board which would also be covered with osb, want either to create barrier from cold concrete floor.. then either option to be topped by a durable floor that won't shift or gap and can take the occasional billiard ball hit. Really trying to avoid any carpet as it seems prone to attracting mold. This message has been edited. Last edited by: measure2,
If you know where you plan to put the table, your best bet may be to put a solid 'subfloor' in the areas under the table legs. For example, 1/2" rigid foam makes a great insulator and can be covered with tow layers of plywood to make a strong floating subfloor. If you replaced the foam under the leg area with 1/2" plywood or 1/2" concrete board, they you would not have any compression issues in those areas.
You could then install a vinyl, hard tile or hardwood directly on top of the floating subfloor.
Thanks Jaybee..I have pretty good idea on where tble will sit, the feet, four of them,are fairly large ( about 9" x 22") so they spread the weight out some .I don't have an exact figure on the tables poundage but it has 1 1/2 slates (3) and the base (cabinet I think they call it) is bulky and made mostly of hard maple. I haven't been able to track down the particular model at Victor billiards since it dates back to the 30's-40's.
As far as flooring goes, I a little worried that tile could break from pool balls hitting it, Plus real hard floor may damage balls.
Since you don't want carpet the ideal simple solution would be a floating floor. This would have a thin foam backer that actually does a lot to isolate the cold concrete from the living space. The thing is, you cannot put that heavy table on concrete.
One alternate solution would be to have one type of flooring in a rectangle directly under the table. This could be tile, glue-down hardwood, vinyl or a glue-down hard tile. Then, the floating floor cold be installed all around it and into the rest of the room.
Not a bad Idea Jaybee
I have seen photo of something like that on one of the billiard forums I think...I have contemplated something similar but I would still like to insulate the floor a little more.Do you know of anyone ever using composite boards (deck material) as sleepers. I've been thinking this could be way do the support area just under table (say a 12' X 7'area),match thickness to the foam being used and then fill spaces between them with rigid foam board like a regular sleeper floor is done, then still be able to lay out the rest of the room with the rigid foam (3/4 or 1 inch) butted together and top it all with 5/8 osb screwed down. Shouldn't the composite do better on the concrete than standard lumber? Just thinking out loud here.This message has been edited. Last edited by: measure2,
I have contemplated something similar but I would still like to insulate the floor a little more.Do you know of anyone ever using composite boards (deck material) as sleepers. I've been thinking this could be way do the support area just under table (say a 12' X 7'area),match thickness to the foam being used and then fill spaces between them with rigid foam board like a regular sleeper floor is done, then still be able to lay out the rest of the room with the rigid foam (3/4 or 1 inch) butted together and top it all with 5/8 osb screwed down. Shouldn't the composite do better on the concrete than standard lumber? Just thinking out loud here.[/QUOTE]
Good idea. The rigid foam is sturdy enough to support most anything ....except a huge pool table so the PT sleepers will work. This method does require two layers of plywood or OSB, not one as the two layers are screwed together to make a giant floating subfloor. The bottom layer needs to be 3/4" and the top 1/2" for enough strength.
Even with the floating subfloor and solid support under the table, you still cannot use a floating floor under the table legs - too much weight in a concentrated area. YO ualso cannot install something very rigid like tile on top of a floating subfloor.
Good idea. The rigid foam is sturdy enough to support most anything ....except a huge pool table so the PT sleepers will work. This method does require two layers of plywood or OSB, not one as the two layers are screwed together to make a giant floating subfloor. The bottom layer needs to be 3/4" and the top 1/2" for enough strength.
Wouldn't I only need the one layer of tongue and groove osb if I'm screwing it down through the foam and into the concrete with tapcons? (was my original plan)
Also , I have some Ipe scraps from deck jobs that I could put down as sleepers,...yes I know its hard to work with but seems to be indestructable ( pieces have been "stored" outside under friends porch on dirt for probably 7 years and still look great) and best part is they are free.This message has been edited. Last edited by: measure2,
Using the Ipe as sleepers is a good idea (other than it being a shame to put such beautiful wood to that use)
Using tap cons to attach a single layer of T&G to the concrete floor will not work. Several reasons:
1. No concrete slab is perfectly level. Pulling the subfloor down with TapCons will force the wood to follow any uneven contours.
2. In the same vein, it is almost impossible to regulate the height of the plywood. It will be sitting over the compressible foam so unless you get the exact same pull for every TapCon, your wood subfloor will have dips and rises in it.
3. The biggie - Your 3/4" OSB needs to be attached every 8" in both directions. That's 91 TapCons per 4x8 sheet. Aside from massive amounts of time needed to do this, you will burn up hundreds of masonry drill bits and certainly more than one hammer drill. TapCons ain't cheap - you will drop a few hundred dollars to do an average sized basement.
Since your objective is to get a sturdy subfloor that you can attach a finished floor to and provide some insulation to control temperature and dampness, here's an alternative:
It's called a floating subfloor.
1. Start by laying your 1" foam directly on the concrete slab. Tape all seams of the foam - this will hold them from shifting during the install and have the foam work as a vapor barrier too.
2. Lay out a layer of 3/4" subfloor material (plywood or OSB is fine) Do not use T&G, use regular 4x8 sheets. Make your lay-out pattern so that the OSB seams do not line up with the foam seams in any direction. Note that it doesn't hurt the final product if you use T&G, just that it makes the installation much harder and since the layer is sandwiched between the foam and top layer, the T&G is not needed.
3. Lay out a second layer of subfloor. This needs to be at least 1/2" but can also be 3/4". Here too, make sure that the lay-out pattern with this layer does not line up with the layer below.
4. Attach the top layer to the bottom layer with screws sized for the material thickness. Use 1-1/4" if your layers are 3/4" + 1/2" or use 1-1/2" screws if using two 3/4" layers.
5. Bonding the two subfloor layers together like this creates one huge floating subfloor. While it does 'float' on top of the foam it is so massive that you can install a variety of finished floor products on top. You can even do a nail-down hardwood. About the only thing you can't do is tile as there will still be a slight amount of flex.
6. When installing the OSB in both layers, leave about 1/2" gap around the perimeter to allow for expansion. Also, you can use a subflooring glue in-between the two OSB layers if you want, but it's not necessary.
One of the downsides to this method it that between having a layer of foam, two layers of subfloor and then a finished floor, you will be adding anywhere from 2-1/4" to 3" to the height of the original slab floor. On the plus side - It will give you a nice, rigid subfloor to work with, is fairly easy to install and although you will have some material expenses, that second layer of OSB and all the screws needed will be a lot less expensive than TapCons.
This type of floating subfloor is common for dance studios - they need a rigid finish floor like hardwood but also need a floor that has a slight 'give' to it to avoid injuries. In the case of a dance studio floor, it's common to use a good grade of carpet pad instead of rigid foam.
We do not have basements in Texas, but we do have condensation issues w concrete and when it rains a lot, water issues on the perimeter of the solid foundations.
First, nice billiards table, especially the circa. I like JB's idea of a solid floor under all of the B-table. You just have to make sure this will be the permanent place. If you do ever move out the b-table, you could put an area rug over this area.
Next, I would forget tile. Bad for both ball and tile itself. Any floor you choose, emulate the final configuration [6ml foam, OSB [etc], then your final floor. Get some final floor samples and drop some pool balls from 5-6ft...if the floor resists that, then it should uphold well when playing if a ball leaves the table. I can tell you that the thicker the polyurethane on any floor covering, the better it will protect the actual floor, but the more your odds increase that a ding could be left in the finish. You do not see these directly, but at the right angle and light, you will see it well. This is where your pool-ball drop test will come in handy.
Finally, you can always put some kind of insulator directly under the 4 legs themselves that is slightly less that the total area of the leg. This will give the table a bit of a cushion and soften its impact on the floor.
Good luck,
tstexThis message has been edited. Last edited by: tstex,
Some great ideas there,..Sorry for delay in response,I been busy fixing,sealing,taping and getting ready to insulate duct work.
Jaybee, are you sure about the amount of tapcons that need to go into each sheet?
I'd also really like to keep the thickness down to about 1 1/2 inches of subfloor.
Reason I ask about the amount of screws for the osb was something I remember seeing in an installation pdf,.. went back through my research and found on the Delta fl product information they had diagram showing only twelve (12) screws per sheet (I understand of course this a bit different product than xps rigid foam). I may need to go this route to keep down thickness and cost(if rigid foam/osb/plywood takes that many screws) and sacrifice some insulating of the floor.One bonus is that Delta's compressive strength is 5200 lbs per sq foot. Hopefully I'm reading their spec sheet right .
Will also have a good idea of how rooms comfort level is when I put up foam on the walls ( maybe I won't need as much on the floor????). As of right now the temps up off the floor are running 59-60 and on the floor it is 56-57. Of course this could drop some when I insulate the duct work. Final plan of course will include some method of heating down there.
We have a big home show coming to Baltimore convention center this weekend so maybe I can grill a few flooring vendors and maybe even test that billiard ball drop on some of their products.
Thanks and keep the good ideas coming...
Horizontal 3/4" needs to be anchored every 8". Considering that it's in a potentially damp area (the concrete slab) it would need every bit of that to stay secure. BTW a thinner sheet OSB or plywood will need even more screws closer together.
But - All that is really a moot point. With the foam underneath, you cannot install TapCons or any other type fastener through the OSB material, through the foam and into the concrete slab and expect it to hold. The problem here is that the foam does have some 'give' to it. While it's only a small amount it applies stress in all the wrong places. Just the act of walking on the flooring will cause a slight up and down movement. Eventually the bond will break - most likely by the TapCons pulling out of the masonry surface below but possibly having the heads of the TapCons pull through the wood surface. It is even possible that the TapCons will break. What is 100% certain is that the floor bond will fail.
You are entering a world where there are too many givens here: You want an insulation barrier. You want a sturdy floor. You want something less than 1-1/2" thick. You want the billiard balls to bounce and not shatter when hitting the floor. You can't get all of that in one package.
While I think that the floating floor system I mentioned a few posts back is overall the best solution to give you the most of what you want, it does have the fact that it is fairly thick going against it.
The alternate (and much less expensive) solution would be to install some form of hard floor directly to the concrete slab in the area underneath the pool table. Tile, glue-down laminate or vinyl will all work. Then, install a conventional snap-together floating floor on a good grade slab-rated pad. Even though the pad is only 1/4" thick it will give the separation needed to keep the dampness away from the finished flooring. Material price for a very good grade of flooring will run about $4/SF while the pad will be $.50/SF
In your original post you wanted to control the dampness from the slab. We have installed quite a few floating floors on slabs over the years. A floating floor with a 1/4" pad will make for a very comfortable basement.
Keep the above in mind, and then contemplate this idea. IHMO, the billiards table w the circa, age, weight and style is the center piece of this whole conversation really, and then the floor comes next. Arrange the b-table to be the center piece, then, determine the exact location of where the table will go, then the exact dimensions of the table and add about 6" out of the rectangle. Go with a solid floor underneath and a unique design under the table. You make the call on the wood type, pattern, style etc, but make it a solid floor. Then go out in all directions with a floating floor. Envision this: A really nice design/arrangement underneath delineating the table, then work your way out in a pattern befitting to the layout of the room. I believe this will accentuate both your room and the pool table. This is what you see in the mansions in Newport RI...really classy, but that is only my opinion.
Really appreciate the great input, I'm trying to weigh my options here and eliminate mistakes/problems, especially since a dismantle and move table later ( to correct mistakes) is a very bad (and Costly) thing.
So,it's looking like the solid base area plan is my best option, I am able to narrow down the position for table pretty close.
I have had "I" beam reinforced. I had building engineer figure out plan, then got experienced structural welder implement it and then remove lally column to create a 24 X 17 area which got me above the minimum for this size table which is approx 19.5 X 15. Will try to keep up progress report on the site. Meanwhile it's back to duct work sealing/repair. I am just about ready to hunt down the HVAC installers and send Seattle's Richard Sherman after them to deliver a good verbal thrashing.This message has been edited. Last edited by: measure2,
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7/02 in Yankee History
The red-letter day:
1941: Joe DiMaggio becomes the sole owner of the record for longest hitting streak in Major League history. With a homer off Boston's Dick Newsome at the Stadium, the Yankee Clipper extends his streak to 45 games, eclipsing Wee Willie Keeler's long-standing mark that he had tied the day before. The blast also contributes to an 8-4 win.
On other 2nds of July…
2008: Right-handed journeyman Sydney Ponson seems headed for a loss when two-run,
sixth-inning homers by Milton Bradley and Kris Davis give the
Rangers a 7-6 lead at the Stadium, but the first five Yanks
to bat in the seventh score. 8 runs will come across in the frame, and 3 more in the 8th, to carry them to an 18-7 win. Jason Giambi drives in six with a grand slam
and a two-run double, Bobby Abreu (below) and A-Rod deliver
three RBI each, and Johnny Damon has three hits, and scores three times while driving in two.
1978: After the opener of a doubleheader at the Stadium, Ron Guidry is now off to the best start of any pitcher in Yankee history, having bested the Tigers 3-2 to raise his record to 13-0. Controversy arises when Detroit outfielder Mickey Stanley waits for a fan
interference call on a long drive by Mickey Rivers that never comes, and Rivers legs out an
inside-the-park home run to tie the game at two. Goose Gossage gets the win in the nitecap as the Yanks gain a walkoff win, 5-3.
1970: The Yankees fall to the Tigers and Joe Niekro 5-0. Horace Clarke breaks up a no-hit bid by the Detroit knuckleballer with a single in the 9th, the third time this month that the Yankee second baseman has spoilt a no-no with a safety in the final inning.
1966: The struggles of the Yankees (who are heading for their first last-place finish in 54 years) are reflected in the fortunes of Whitey Ford, who continues to be winless so far in the campaign. Washington's Frank Howard, Don Lock and Ken McMullen hit back-to-back-to-back homers against the fading lefty on the way to a 10-4 victory. Mike McCormick gets the complete-game win for the Senators.
1962: In a game with the A's at the Stadium, Mickey Mantle walks in three out of his four In trips to the plate. He takes advantage of the one good pitch he sees to blast it into the upper deck, helping the Yanks to an 8-4 win.
1946: With nearly 70,000 in attendance at the Stadium, Yankee hurler Spud Chandler gets off to a shaky start, walking nine Red Sox batters in the first four innings. Still, he carries a no-hitter into the 9th, when Bobby Doerr singles with one out, and then closes the door for a 2-1 victory.
1943: Nice effort, shame about the 4th inning… The
Indians score all 12 of their runs during that frame in a 12-0 win over the
Yankees. The roof falls in on New York starter Marius Russo (shown below), who takes his third loss of the year without a win.
1938: Hal Reniff, pitcher for the '62 Yankees World Championship team, and member of the '63 and '64 pennant winners, is born. Happy 73rd, Hal!
1922: The Yankees beat the A's 9-3. Two of Philadelphia's 3 runs come on solo home runs by outfielder Tilly Walker (shown below), who will finish the year with 37 round-trippers, two more than Babe Ruth's total.
1906: After losing the opener of a doubleheader with the A's 5-4, the Highlanders win by forfeit for the first time in franchise history, 5-1.


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Thursday, July 9, 2009
Summer Lovin'
In the mean time, rather than bore you to tears, I thought I could give you all a little eye-candy. And it's some good eye-candy.
Check-out these new little Japanese prints that showed-up in my mail box today. No, they didn't just magically appear (wouldn't that be a fun blog post!). My i-spy stash was getting depleted so I ordered a few from a new-to-me etsy shop Mwenda's.
Some very cute prints I hadn't seen elsewhere. As you can see, I really liked these matryoshka dolls so much I ordered them in three different colors. :)
But this one is the cutest. It looks like some awesome, elusive print Nanette would have. My favorite part is that it's all in German. (Really, I think it's so funny that all of these cute Japanese prints feature words in other languages!)
And here are a couple of other reasons why I am getting far less sewing/etsy planning/blogging done: My husband and I returned home from a date last night to discover the 5-year-old had decided not to turn off the sink after he finished brushing his teeth last night (so taxing, you know?) and by the time the baby-sitter discovered it, the sink was overflowing, the bathroom was flooded and water was dripping through the ceiling and the light fixture in the family room below. And the greatest irony of this? Get this: the day we moved into this house almost 5 1/2 years ago, I was sitting on the couch in the family room after an exhausting day when the dome of the light fixture fell to the ground right in front of me and shattered when it hit the floor. (Where my little kiddies had been playing earlier.) So how long did it take us to finally replace that broken light fixture? Almost 5 1/2 years. Yes, that's right. My wonderful brother-in-law replaced it for us 2 days ago. The day before we had to then take it down because it was full of water.
Oh and I have to spend time monitoring my kids during their swimming lessons. I know, what a rough life.
This weekend is another busy, family weekend. My second daughter is turning 8! So we have a birthday party with friends tomorrow and Saturday morning she is going to be baptized. (In our faith, infants are given a blessing, but baptism is reserved until a person is at least 8 years old - old enough to know right from wrong and make the decision to be baptized for themselves.) It is going to be a special day! But I have a lot to do to get ready. Thank goodness for summer and we can host outside, so it's okay if my house is not spotless. And I don't have to put away all of my quilting mess.
20 comments:
Happy birthday to your daughter, what a special birthday!ReplyDelete
Enjoy the times with them kiddos...it goes so darned fast.ReplyDelete
Reading your posts brings back so many memories of raising my own small children. My husband used to compare it to trying to "herd cats". Just when you think you have one situation under control, the next child is off and running in another direction.ReplyDelete
My heart is with you!
Lovely fabric! Really funny story, but sounds like a typical home. What a view from the poolside. Happy 8th birthday to your daughter. Here is wishing you all a wonderful party weekend.ReplyDelete
Purty!! That pool looks nice :)ReplyDelete
Very cute prints. I love the little Russian dolls. Good luck with the baptism. Hunter's was such a special day. Swimming lessons didn't work out for us this year. We just didn't have two weeks in a row where we could squeeze it in.ReplyDelete
Happy Birthday to your daughter! My oldest won't turn 8 for another 3 years, and the thought that he'll be baptized then, it's weird. I'm a convert and was baptized at 12. Hope you have an amazing and special weekend!ReplyDelete
That was great eye candy and I loved the matroyska dolls, so cute!ReplyDelete
Happy Birthday to your daughter and enjoy her special day tomorrow. I'm so sorry about the light but it is ironically funny that you just had it fixed. Who could've predicted that would happen?
What a life! Reminds me of the good old days when my kids were young!ReplyDelete
Too bad you don't live in Austin, my husband's a plumber! I love that little Schwein too.ReplyDelete
Hey, i'm having a giveaway contest today for designer fabric lovers! Come on over and check it out!
I LOVE the light fixture story. That is totally our speed!ReplyDelete
That's like our Confirmation. I agree, what a special Birthday!ReplyDelete
I absolutely love this fabric. And I LOVE the fabric you just sent me!! I am itching to get started on my Roboto because I'd love to take it with me on vacation in August and work on hand sewing the binding.
What a paint that you have to monitor their swim lessons like that. Especially if you had to do it with a cool beverage in hand. And on that lounge chair?! My deepest sympathies, really.
that's too funny about the light fixture. I can't wait to tell Bret. I'm sure he won't mind doing it again.ReplyDelete
Have fun tomorrow at the baptism.ReplyDelete
Love the fabric. Had to laugh about the fabric with German speak! My daughter just started working at a German Beer Garden and she would get a kick out of that! And what is it about nesting dolls that are sooooo appealing!:)
Oh! I love those fabrics! :D Beautiful!ReplyDelete
OMG! I don't know how you could restrain yourself while you where shopping in her "store"! Too many cute fabrics! Lots of "Oohhhh" from my end when I went to the site!ReplyDelete
We still have one more week of swim lessons. We'll see if we go for the next session (I might be too tired)!
Have a good weekend!
thanks for sharing... there are so many fabrics and i never get bored at looking at more!... and the feet at the pool.. super jealous... my bathing suit went on once this year so far.. and i'll be lucky if it gets one more shot... and i live an hour from the beach... don't ask...ReplyDelete
Brings back ooooooh so fond memories when my kids were little....ReplyDelete
MUST have some of that in German fabric! So cute. Thanks for the eye candy---at least it doesn't go to my hips! :-)ReplyDelete
Hey, I think we are neighbors!! I live in Utah County as well and visit American Quilting all the time. Love the Japanese prints, when I visited Japan I should have bought more (sigh!)ReplyDelete
Thank you so much for your comments - they make my day! I try to respond to as many as my 'mommy' time allows, but life sometimes gets in the way. Please know how much I appreciate each of them.
I apologize for the current comment settings that require a registered user account. They are the only way that I don't get tons of gross spam. I'm hoping Blogger will make a way where people who are not registered users, but would like to leave a comment can do so. Please, Blogger! In the mean time, thanks for your patience.
I also love to respond to questions. If you are a no-reply blogger, please leave an email address so I can get back to you. Or you can email me directly: amy @ diaryofaquilter.com. Thanks!


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https://dynamed.ebscohost.com/about/about-us. Updated March 8, 2013. Accessed April 30, 2013.
Hodgkin lymphoma. The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society
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Hot Guys Shirtless!
In honor of beach season, we've rounded up the hottest photos of your favorite celeb guys, sans shirts. You're welcome.
By Jodi Guglielmi
High School Musical Hunk
If only Vanessa could see him now. Zac Efron is looking mighty fine, flaunting his six-pack (eight-pack?!) while taking a dip.
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Mo Yan
China Daily, via Reuters
Mo Yan is a Chinese novelist and short story writer who was awarded the 2012 Nobel Prize in Literature.
Mr. Mo was born in 1955 in Gaomi, China. The name Mo Yan is a pseudonym for his given name, Guan Moye.
Mr. Mo is the son of farmers who left school during the Cultural Revolution to work, first in agriculture and later in a factory, according to his Nobel biography.
In 1976, he joined the People's Liberation Army and began to study literature and to write. His first short story was published in a literary journal in 1981, according to his biography on the Nobel web site.
"In his writing, Mo Yan draws on his youthful experiences and on settings in the province of his birth," the biography said, referring to his 1987 novel published in English as "Red Sorghum."
Chronology of Coverage
Feb. 3, 2013
Ian Buruma reviews books Sandalwood Death and Pow! by Mo Yan. MORE
Jan. 2, 2013
Dwight Garner reviews book Pow! by Mo Yan, translated by Howard Goldblatt. MORE
Oct. 18, 2012
Op-Ed article by Larry Siems, head of PEN American Center's Freedom to Write program, and Jeffrey Yang, translator of Liu Xiaobo book of poetry, compares reactions of Nobel laureates Mo Yan and Liu to news that they had won prize in literature; observes that two writers illustrate two different paths literature can take under Chinese regime. MORE
Oct. 13, 2012
New Nobel laureate Mo Yan, who avoided antagonizing China's Communist Party during much of his literary career, steps into political minefield by calling for release of imprisoned writer and fellow Nobel winner Liu Xiaobo, who is serving an 11-year sentence for subversion. MORE
Oct. 12, 2012
China erupts in something close to national celebration for writer Mo Yan, who won the Nobel Prize for literature, just two years after the government condemned Nobel Peace Prize for dissident Liu Xiaobo; award will probably act as huge boost to China's national psyche, which has suffered from sense that its cultural accomplishments are overshadowed by its economic prowess. MORE
Oct. 12, 2012
Richard Bernstein An Appraisal column of work of Mo Yan, winner of Nobel Prize for Literature, much of which focuses on daily lives of ordinary people in China. MORE
Oct. 12, 2012
Excerpts from work of Mo Yan, winner of 2012 Nobel Prize in Literature. MORE
There are no additional abstracts to display.
The 'Coming Home' of Zhang Yimou and Gong Li
In "Coming Home," Zhang Yimou examines China's troubled political past and suggests how to deal with it today. With his legendary muse, Gong Li, playing the central character, the film represents a return to form for the director.
May 9, 2014, Friday
MORE ON MO YAN AND: Lee, Ang , Zhang Yimou , Zhang Zhao , Spielberg, Steven , Yan Geling , Li, Gong , Mo Yan , China , Beijing (China) , Le Vision Pictures , Elderly , Books and Literature , Movies , Actors and Actresses
Folk Opera
The novels "Sandalwood Death" and "Pow!," by Nobel Prize winner Mo Yan, combine literary imagination with a peasant spirit.
February 3, 2013, Sunday
MORE ON MO YAN AND: Mo Yan , Books and Literature
A Meaty Tale, Carnivorous and Twisted
Meat plays an outsize role in the demented behavior in Mo Yan's novel "Pow!"
January 2, 2013, Wednesday
MORE ON MO YAN AND: Books and Literature , Mo Yan
A Chinese Laureate's Tale of Free Speech
Mo Yan's silence on Chinese politics provoked a debate that at times turned Orwellian.
December 19, 2012, Wednesday
MORE ON MO YAN AND: China , Nobel Prizes , Mo Yan , Freedom of Speech and Expression , Mao Zedong
'Garlands and Mud' for New Nobel Laureate from China
The novelist Mo Yan was due to receive the Nobel Prize in Literature on Monday, a selection acidly assailed by fellow writers and poets in China. And while some applauded the award, Herta Müller, the 2009 Nobel laureate, called Mr. Mo's selection "a...
December 9, 2012, Sunday
MORE ON MO YAN AND: Mo Yan , Muller, Herta , China , Stockholm (Sweden) , Swedish Academy , Contests and Prizes , Censorship , Writing and Writers , Nobel Prizes , Books and Literature
Ex-Nobel Winner: Choice of Mo Yan a 'Catastrophe'
Herta Mueller, the 2009 winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature, says the choice to give this year's award to Mo Yan is a "catastrophe" that never should have happened, and accuses the Chinese writer of praising the Asian country's tough censorship...
November 24, 2012, Saturday
In 3 Awards, 3 Ways of Seeing China
The nuance and diversity of contemporary Chinese literature can be seen by considering all three recent recipients of prestigious literary prizes: Mo Yan, Liao Yiwu and Yang Mu.
October 18, 2012, Thursday
MORE ON MO YAN AND: Books and Literature , Nobel Prizes , China , Taiwan , Hong Kong , Mo Yan , Freedom of Speech and Expression
China's Nobels
The Nobel honoree for literature is a Chinese novelist who has learned to keep his voice low.
October 18, 2012, Thursday
MORE ON MO YAN AND: China , Mo Yan , Liu Xiaobo , Liu Xia , Writing and Writers , Nobel Prizes , Political Prisoners , Books and Literature
Mo Yan's Creative Space
It would be intellectually lazy for distant observers to assume that Mo Yan's work offers an officially sanitized view of China.
October 16, 2012, Tuesday
MORE ON MO YAN AND: Mo Yan , China , Books and Literature , Nobel Prizes
Chinese Nobel Winner Calls for Dissident's Release
Mo Yan, the new Nobel laureate, stepped into a political minefield over Liu Xiaobo, 2010's peace prize winner.
October 13, 2012, Saturday
MORE ON MO YAN AND: China , Mo Yan , Liu Xiaobo , Nobel Prizes , Communist Party of China , Prisons and Prisoners , Ai Weiwei
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What celebs, notables said about bin Laden
Published On: Sep 02 2011 03:38:19 PM EDT
From comedians to world leaders, everyone seemed to have something to say about the killing of Osama bin Laden.
The views expressed below are not those of Click On Detroit, WDIV, or its affiliated companies. By clicking on "Post," you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and your comment is in compliance with such terms. Readers, please help keep this discussion respectful and on topic by flagging comments that are offensive or inappropriate (hover over the commenter's name and you'll see the flag option appear on right side of that line). And remember, respect goes both ways: Tolerance of others' opinions is important in a free discourse. If you're easily offended by strong opinions, you might skip reading comments entirely.


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Judgement Quotes and Sayings
If a man who made some indiscretions in the past comes to you for help, do not judge him. Feel blessed that you're not in his shoes. Do you think it's easy for him to come to you? He's just trying to survive.
A part will not always define a whole.
Welcome to our society. You will be judged on what you wear, which music you listen to, what you look like, how you act, who you hang 'round with, and on practically every other personal trait and imperfection about you, and you'll be made fun of for being who you are. Enjoy your stay.
Never in your life judge by physical appearance but rather look deeper, analyze and conclude at the longer run because you might be deceived unknowingly.
We are very good lawyers for our own mistakes, but very good judges for the mistakes of others.
Don't judge someone just because they sin differently than you.
People will judge you no matter what you do…so you might as well do what you want.
Don't judge. Behind every person, there's always a reason why they are the way they are.
Never judge someone by the opinion of others.
Before you jugde me make sure your life is perfect and forever will be.
How can you say "I am wrong", if you don't know my reason?
If you cant find what's good in me try to find what's wrong in U.
Love is the absence of judgment.
– Dalai Lama
Be curious, not judgmental.
– Walt Whitman
They tell you to be yourself & then they judge you.
Make sure you are perfect before you judge me!!
It is much more difficult to judge oneself than to judge others.
– Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
People tell others to be themselves but then they judge them. But the people that judge are too afraid to be themselves.
Don't judge me by my glory until you have heard my story!
Then you wonder why people hate you?
Think twice about your actions and before you speak.
Life is too short to worry about what others say or think about you. Have fun and give them something to talk about.
There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
– William Shakespeare
You know my name, not my story. You've heard what I've done, but not what I've been through.
You look at me, you judge me then you imitate me. I look at you and I laugh.
Do not judge me until you know me, Do not underestimate me until you have challenged me, and do not talk about me until you have talked to me.


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