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Walt Michaels RV sales
Posted by
whitmore lake mom
BELLEVILLE, MICHIGAN -- I want to post this as a word of warning to potential future buyers of RV's from Walt Michaels: DON'T. We have had such an upsetting and costly experience with Walt Michaels that I wouldn't buy a camper from these people again if they were the only people selling them. I would rather go without. And I love camping! It is very clear when you deal with this company that they are sued often. You have to sign an arbitration agreement and release of liability for every thing you want done there.
The first time we bought from them we purchased a beautiful, large camping trailer. The sales guy told us our Jeep Liberty could tow the 7000lb trailer with no problem! Luckily we suspected otherwise and looked in the owners manual. We bought another truck! Unfortunately this camper had a leak we didn't know about at the time of purchase, but noticed soon after. After 2 years of constant visits to the service department, it was still not repaired. Since the warranty was expiring and the walls were starting to rot, we were forced to trade the trailer in on a new one or we would be stuck with a usless camper we still owed money on that was unrepairable (according to them). Of course, no other dealer would even look at it as a trade, and we couldn't in good consciousness sell it on our own,so we were forced to trade it through Walt Michaels. They were only too happy to do this since we were then upside down on our loan. We traded it in on another camper that we do like very much, but had to finance a lot of extra money on. We purchased this second camper in the late winter. When we came for our walk through to teach us how to use the thing, after waiting for over 2 hours when we had an appointment, the technician didn't even know where the sewage drain was or most of the other accessories or how they worked! Luckily we were experienced enough RVrs to figure things out on our own.
The last time we dealt with Walt Michaels, we brought the camper in for a few little items that should have been covered under the warranty, since it was only a couple months old. The step was difficult to move, a drawer glide was broken, the door lock was sticky etc. No big deal. When we arrived, this woman came out to inspect the camper for exterior and interior damage. We had to sign a waiver saying that they were not responsible for any damage that occurred in their lot. Then after writing down what we wanted done, she insisted that we sign a form saying that we would pay for any repairs not covered under the warranty. No problem. Then we were told we would not be given any estimate of repairs, or be notified if any of the repairs weren't covered under the warranty. They would just fix it and we would have to pay for it regardless of how expensive the repair was. I refused. I had never had a repair done where they didn't give you an estimate first! I certainly wasn't going to give them free rein to charge me anything they wanted.
When I told her this didn't sound right to me, the woman told me I had to leave or she would call the police and have me forcibly removed from the lot! She was swearing at me and totally lost it! I was stunned! Trying to maintain my calm, I told her this is where I bought the camper and all I wanted was to have some warranty work done since they were the people who should cover the warranty. She told me I was now banned from ever getting any work done there and never to come back! When I told her this was crazy and I wanted to talk to the service manager, she told me she was the service manager! I told her I wanted to talk to whoever her boss was. I was led into the building and told that he would be in a meeting for over 2 hours and I could wait if I wanted to, but they threatened that if I said anything to anyone else they would call the police and have me arrested. I waited over 3 hours and no one ever came out to talk to me in spite of several inquiries to the secretary. I left and have never been back.
I have since taken my camper to Lloyd Bridges in Chelsea MI and they have always been very friendly, prompt and accurate in their repairs. Last time I was in I paid to have the Walt Michaels decal taken off the back of my camper, and the staff was saying how they are always getting unhappy Walt Michaels customers in their shop and showroom. Some of the stories they have to tell make my experience seem almost fun by comparison. However, I will tell you it was not fun. By selling us the first flawed camper and mysteriously never being able to repair the leak, we were roped into lots of extra repair bills and another camper sale with no ability to negotiate a fair price. They conned a lot of extra money from us.
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Ponie on 04/21/2008:
Although I'm not in the market for a camper, I'll certainly think about your post each time I see the many commercials they have on local TV, especially Channel 4. Also, I see them advertising quite frequently in the Freep. Good review.
MSCANTBEWRONG on 04/21/2008:
With all of the "cover their butt" paperwork you had to sign, I would have been leery at the onset. It's very unfortunate that a purchase of that magnitude has been nothing but trouble for you. We will be looking at purchasing a camper over the next few years so I'll definitely keep this review in mind. Thank you for the information.
dlzuccaro on 11/08/2008:
wow.....Just when I thought I've seen and heard everything about this dealership, another even more interesting and unfortunate story pops up. I really hope people will heed your warning. They are THE absolute worst business to deal with. I walked away never to look back and literally paid for repairs out of pocket until I eventually traded their unit in at another dealership and have been totally happy ever since.People, really..........Stay away from Walt Michals. I can't stress that enough!!!
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Walt Michaels Is A Rip Off
Posted by
BELLEVILLE, MICHIGAN -- We went to Walt Michaels in the spring of 2002 to look at Pop-up campers. We did not want to buy a used camper and end up with a duct tape special so we purchased a brand new pop-up. When we did the walk through our sales person just pointed out heres the stove, fridge, AC etc... When got the camper home and set it up to show our friends we realized that the canvas had 2 areas where the stitching was coming out and the zipper around the door was also broken. We called our sales person who said we should make a report but if we wanted to use the camper for the summer we should wait and bring it in the fall or they could have it ALL SUMMER to repair it.... A new replacement camper was out of the question.
We went camping the following weekend only to discover that we also did not have curtains in our brand new camper so we could not change out clothes inside it and the propane tanks that were supposedly FULL at purchase were empty.
We called our sales person and he said he would order curtains and they would be in next week. We called him every week and were put on hold and NO ONE ever returned our calls. We made several trips out there only to get the run around. FINALLY they gave us a set of curtains out of another camper but those did not match our interior.
In October we took out camper in to have the stitching and zipper fixed and were told it would take about 1 month. we called every month and IF WE actually got to talk to someone it was always "no, not ready yet".
We went out there again in February and were told that the canvas had just been sent out for repair and would be ready in a month. Not ready in March, April or May! We went out there again and had words with Ms. Michael who told us to leave or she would call the police..... Mind you our camper has sat there on the lot for 8 months of us making payments for a camper we can not even use!
Then a few weeks later they tell us that the canvas has been lost in shipping and somehow they do not think they should have to pay for a new canvas!!! They tell us we have to deal with the company that LOST the canvas.
We contacted an attorney who was very familiar with Walt Michaels POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE - he called the place WALLY WORLD! It took another 6 months of court hearings so no camping in 2003 & still making payments on a camper we do not even have.
In the end "Dutchman" offered us a brand new travel trailer in replacement of the pop-up! We had it sent to General RV as we did not want to go to Walt Michaels EVER again and Walt Michaels had to pay our legal expenses.
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Shady Sales, Worse Service
Posted by
BELLEVILLE, MICHIGAN -- I am currently in the process of purchasing from Walt Michaels and I recommend you take your business elsewhere. I'm wishing we had read these other reviews before stepping foot on their lot. Everyone seems to have the same story. My husband and I were given the run around by the salesman, meaning he did everything he could not to lie to us but still didn't give us full disclosure. We weren't able to get any solid info regarding interest rates and payment amounts until they had DRAFTED the loan agreement. Why I went through with any of this I will never know but hopefully my posting will save the next poor sap the same disappointment. Long story short, we signed the documents but before leaving the parking lot I had some misgivings. I read and reread the fine print and was VERY uncomfortable with the deal.
We went back in and talked to the sales manager who assured us he wanted us to be happy but that it was a done deal. I told him that didn't make me happy, that we wanted time to think about it. This is also what I told the salesman all along, that I wanted to make sure my HOLD deposit was fully refundable in case I changed my mind, and I told the finance girl that the payment was too high and I just felt like I shouldn't go through with it, to which she responded by shoving another document at us. I don't know why I didn't just walk out the door then. At any rate, I feel that I was duped by these people. We had to talk to ANOTHER manager who pulled us into the office with everyone else we'd talked to so there were 6 of us, including my husband and me. They basically brow beat us and I told them that's exactly how it felt and that I didn't trust the deal. I was told that since it was Saturday there was nothing they could do, that had it been a week night she could just call the bank for us. She said she'd call first thing Monday and get back to us.
It's Monday and it's almost noon. I did hear from Walt Michaels...the shady salesman called to give me a freaking insurance quote!!!! The docs we signed that they want to hold us to state that we'll get our own insurance through our current provider. I found an email address provided on this website through a response posted by Christopher in IT at Walt Michals. I've emailed him the entire breakdown of what happened that day and asked that he give me some kind of contact info for ANYONE who can help make this right. My husband just talked to Mr Shady Sales, too, only to discover that this new $25K unit doesn't even have a TV....even though Shady went on and on about it when we walked through the trailer, nothing would have led me to believe that a TV wasn't included. I will let you know if we are able to reach any kind of agreement or to leave with any satisfaction at all.
At this point we're looking at being the owners of a brand new bare bones camper that we don't even want based on the experience we've already had with the dealer. I hope that you read this and ALL other posting (good or bad) before investing in an RV with Walt Michaels.
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Lopiekitty on 07/07/2008:
Wow! I thought WE had a bad experience!
I wanted you to know IN CASE you don't get my message...we RAN out of Walt Michael's DISGUSTED with the way they do business and LAUGHING at their stupidity.
We drove down the road to Annie Rae's RV which is about 1/2 hr. away?
I am SO, SO SORRY this happened! I can only pray that someone reads about our experiences and takes it to heart....we are NOT bitter people...we are NOT making this up...IF you are looking for an RV and don't believe us then PLEASE make Walt Michaels your FIRST stop and keep in mind everything you have read and you will see.
After speaking to other RV dealers they stated there should NEVER be prep charges and certainly NOT $1,000.00...and that is not the ONLY way Walt Michaels will try to scalp someone.
Anyway...I hope this can help.
Anonymous on 07/07/2008:
OK, it sounds like this Walt Michaels has some shady business practices - most car/RV dealerships do. That's why it is SO important that before stepping foot into their business that you have already done your homework:
1. Know exactly how much of a monthly payment you can afford
2. Know what kind of vehicle/unit you want and what amenities you want in it - do your research ahead of time so you have a good understanding of cost
3. Never, EVER sign anything until you have read it thoroughly and in its entirety.
4. It's also a good idea to know your credit worthiness before going in, and research going interest rates so you know what you should be getting offered.
I hope Walt works something out with you, but I have a feeling you will end up on the short end of the stick here.
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Travel Trailer purchase
Posted by
BELLEVILLE, MICHIGAN -- This is not a total "negative" review about Walt Michael's Rv in Belleville, Michigan. This is (hopefully) information for anyone considering going there to look at a new/used RV/travel trailer.
My husband and I have been looking for a new travel trailer. We found one we fell in love with at Walt Michael's RV.
We went to W.M. dealership knowing full well their policy of "extra fees". We were met by a young salesman whose name escapes me. We were only there to look but were told they needed our names/address BEFORE we could look. We were escorted to a desk and grudgingly gave them our personal information.
We were walked outside to the trailer and looked at it. The young man was not prepared to open the slide and we had to walk back to find a charger and then we were walked back to the trailer as it is a company policy you can not be left alone in one of their units.
Upon return to the trailer my husband and I both asked about their "prep fees"...by the way they WILL charge you $1,000.00 for prep. ANYWAY when we asked our salesman about the fees we were informed that it was for "fabric prep, gas tank filling, a complete going-over etc". Let me say to you all...DO NOT go anyplace where their "prep fees" are THIS MUCH! This is a total and complete rip-off! WHY oh WHY (and I did ask this question) do you NEED so much time/money to get a BRAND NEW trailer ready??!! I have NO problem paying for a service and paying a REASONABLE fee but this is just plain highway robbery! **by the way we own a pop-up and it does NOT cost THAT much to fill a gas bottle**
Prep fees aside we went back to the desk so my husband could get their "bottom line". Our salesman left with a sheet of paper to speak to the sales manager whose name is Josh.
FIRST OF ALL...IF anyone here from Walt Michael's sees this...HIGH PRESSURE sales are OR should be a thing of the PAST! Josh needs to go back and re-learn the art of the deal badly!
He gave my husband his bottom line/out the door price which was ONLY good RIGHT THEN (we were informed that as soon as we left the deal was OFF THE TABLE!). Josh put the sheet on the desk with black marker scribble all over it and it said NOTHING we could read...no number break down, no figures clearly written...just black marker scribble. (NOT ONLY were they going to charge for prep we also had to pay an additional 850.00 for their freight/delivery on that trailer PLUS the taxes, plates, title) We figured there were about 1,850.00 in EXTRA fees at Walt Michaels RV.
My husband and I left there laughing all the way to the car. Was the price good? No. Did they "deal" with us? No.
I am only writing this because we took TIME and spent a LOT of time doing research on prices, makers, options and my advice to anyone looking at a travel trailer/RV is BE INFORMED! Know your product and prices and values. Paying EXTRA HIDDEN fees or paying THAT MUCH for prep is up to you....IF you feel you are getting what you are paying for.
ANYWAY....long story short.... Or just a long story!
We ended up at ANOTHER dealer near Lansing, Michigan and got a FANTASTIC deal on a new trailer (THOUSANDS LESS then Walt Michael's) the deal was seamless, NO prep fees and the manager of the dealership we purchased from wants a happy customer. My husband and I are going back this Saturday because they want US to personally inspect our trailer and look for ANYTHING wrong or ANYTHING we feel needs to be changed. They DO prep our new trailer but they want EVERYTHING to be right and they want us to be totally happy when we drive away with our new purchase. What a novel idea? **by the way...gas fill-up is FREE there for new trailer purchases**
NO PRESSURE/CUSTOMER SERVICE....Both my husband and I feel Walt Michael's RV needs lesson's in BOTH!
I am waiting for someone from Walt Michael's to call us and ask us if we are still interested in that trailer...I want to personally thank them for making our decision to buy from another dealer SO EASY.
I hope this helps someone out there looking.
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tnchuck100 on 03/17/2008:
That's the way to do it! Congratulations.
I think all price tags should show the total fixed price of the purchase. These dealers already know what the freight and prep fees are. The only thing not in the price should be options and variable items that are not known until signing.
malcolm3or4 on 04/21/2008:
I commend you! My husband and I fell victim to their high pressure sales this past weekend and are already paying the price. We dealt with Josh, too, and his black marker scribble (this time he used red) with no number figures, just +++ across the bottom of the page. Rather than state the deal was good only that day he promised my husband a bottle of his favorite tequila. At least he keeps up appearances! We signed on the trailer but before leaving the lot I decided I had too many misgivings to go through with the deal. We went back in and talked to several people and were basically told "too bad, it's a done deal". This is our first camper so we weren't informed consumers. We didn't know anything about all the extra costs and it was never broken down for us. I don't dispute the fact that we were idiots for signing so please save those comments. I am extremely disappointed and physically ill about the way things played out for us. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to enjoy camping when this situation will always be in my head. Walt Michaels was to contact me this morning after talking to the bank first thing and still I've heard from no one. It's noon. I've already contacted the bank and they say I have to work with the dealer. We all know that's not going to happen. If this is resolved, if we get ANY satisfaction, I will let you know. Congratulations on your WISE and well informed purchase and I'd appreciate knowing which dealer you used. I will NOT be returning to Walt Michaels for any kind of service.
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2004 Discovery Motorhome
Posted by
MICHIGAN -- I have read numerous complaints about the dealership where we bought our motorhome and have to agree that the service is poor. We live 70 miles from the dealership. We purchased a 2004 Discovery Motorhome, 3 slides, with a lot of luxuries. We were also talked into buying the 7 year extended warranty. Low and behold the regular warranty and the extended warranty is not backed up through the dealership and they cannot give us addresses, dealerships, that will back up the warranties. Every attempt to get service done on our RV has cost us large amounts of money out of our pocket. Every time they say the warranty doesn't cover anything. It's an all day job to take the motorhome to the dealership, and of course we have to leave it with no idea when to expect the work to be finished, then another full day to pick the motorhome back up. They've had to remove a cup holder to get to the wiring, after getting the motorhome back, the cup holder was missing. They said they didn't loose it and we'd have to order another one which would take about 2 weeks. We left a full list of items that needed repaired, nothing was repaired and the only explanation we got was they couldn't find anything wrong. It's now 2007 and the wiring still hasn't been corrected. There's no way imaginable that anyone can believe how much we've put into this motorhome. We've spent endless hours on the phone with them and also calling different dealerships to see if they can help us. I have a bill to pay tomorrow to replace the wiring and the inverter. We currently have the motorhome in Louisianna and had to find a repairman down here. But nothing is wrong with it. The only assistance we got was we finally contacted a freightliner company and they accepted the warranty and replaced the altinator. We didn't get that phone number or address from the original dealership. A dealership that replaced all 4 batteries got us hooked up with the freightliner company. In the early months of 2006 we had to unhook the motorhome in Florida and take it to be repaired. These are all day jobs. We've had a lot of repairs done and a lot of replacements done at our expense....except for the altinator. The traveling satellite could not be fixed at the dealership. They had no knowledge on how to repair it. We had it repaired in Florida. I could go on and on. Why did we pay for the extended warranty? Every time we call the dealership they try to talk us into trading it in. OH, on top of everything else, after returning home with the motorhome and leaving for vacation, we only had one set of keys that were in the ignition, the second set of keys belonged to someone elses rv. So someone else ended up with our keys. When we got to Florida we didn't have any keys to unlock the under compartments. I will never buy from this dealership again. Somewhere between here and there, all my original paperwork has come up missing. I've tried calling the dealership to get duplicates to see if anyone in LA will honor the warranties so I won't have to pay the $2000.00 repair. They're closed for the week. I didn't know businesses like that closed for the whole week.
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Anonymous on 01/04/2007:
Maybe it is time to sell the one you got and get a new one?
Hugh_Jorgen on 01/04/2007:
Sounds like you need to pick up a copy of Motor Home magazine and see about reporting your problems to their "Action Line" column - there's nothing like getting national exposure to get a manufacturer or dealer to step up and do the right thing and fix your problems. Good luck.
tnchuck100 on 01/04/2007:
You seem to be having a lot of trouble with a 2004 motorhome. Usually don't have wiring trouble unless someone has been tampering with it. You expect that in a 15 - 20 year old unit. You have not been very clear as to exactly what your problems were.
As for extended warranties, most of the time they are a waste of money. You are betting you will have trouble, they are betting you won't. But, since they write the rule book they have all kinds of fine print to weasel their way out of paying.
Find a good RV dealer. Get to know him. Develop a relationship.
Anonymous on 01/04/2007:
I recommend against extended warranties.
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Don't go to Walt Micael RV Center at all costs
Posted by
BELLEVILLE, MICHIGAN -- This I hope will be helpful for anyone considering purchasing an RV from this dealership in Southeastern Michigan. This incident happened back in 2001 and I still hold a grudge to this day. We went to visit this dealership back in June of 2001 on a Saturday with the hopes of just browsing and getting some ideas for a travel trailer. We were told of Walt Michaels because of the sheer size and quantity of inventory and it was very impressive. After travelling around on a golf cart for nearly 2 hours my wife (who just gave birth and had our 2 week old son with us) decided we might as well go ahead and give into the pressure and just purchase one because we did not want to have to go through looking all over again. The salesman was very helpful and we felt we got a good deal on the RV we wanted. Being new to the RV scene we went to go finalize paperwork. After the initial price agreement, Walt Michael now added over 1,000 dollars to put a hitch assembly on our Van. Then we were charged another 1,000 dollars for what they called some sort of start up fee. THis merely consisted of having someone show you where the stove and microwave is in the RV and fill the propane tanks. Before we knew it, all of the money that was taken off of the initial price of the RV was added back on. We went ahead anyway and purchased the RV. THe real problem began when we went to pick up the RV. I had left my Van 2 days earlier to get the tow package installed and have it ready for us by our scheduled arrival date and time. When we got there, they had not even begun to work on our Van. We had to wait 2-4 hours for this after they told us it would only be a half hour. When we received our RV, the spare tire cover was missing and they wanted us to pay for it if we wanted one because that wasn't part of the accessories (even though the exact same model of a different color had one). The trailer was also missing the door stop holder and had to have its tow wiring replaced because someone frayed the wires towing it around the lot.When it came time for our 1,000 dollar walk through, he was not able to answer any questions on the exact procedures of the appliances because they could be held liable if we were to use them incorrectly. So we basically paid an extra 1,000 dollars to have someone "point" were the stove and refiegerator and A/C unit is located. The aggravation only got worse when we had to bring our trailer back for service. All of the spots where the customers are assigned to "drop off" the trailers were used up by their inventory leaving it immpossible to drop off my RV without some stuntman maneuvering. This happened the next 2 times I had to bring my RV in for service also. The last time I brought my RV for service was the real kicker. I dropped it off in October with a list of 5 to 6 very small items that needed to be replaced. i.e. door-knobs, cabinet pulls, blind rods, etc. They held onto my trailer for 3 months before the worked was finally completed. When I received a letter from them in December stating they would be closed for 3 weeks during the holidays and they would not be responsible for any batteries that were still hooked up and may freeze and explode. Since they were holding my RV "hostage" I asked if they could just unscrew the 2 wing-nuts and disconnect the battery for me so I wouldn't have to make a special trip. They service manage informed me that they would have to charge me 45 dollars (to unscrew two wingnuts!) When I finally picked up my RV in January, I noticed that the curtain plastic turn rod was never fixed. When I inquired why, he stated that I neglected to give him the broken piece so that the warranty would cover the cost. Not only did this never get relayed to me ahead of time, but I just said forget it and bought the 45 cent piece from Home Depot! The final straw came when I repeatedly called and asked to speak to the center manager to discuss my problems. All 3 times I called I was put on hold to never have anyone pick up the line, let alone the manager. I have never encountered such unprofessionalism in my life and never went to this extreme to try to relay this information with the hopes that it will help anyone else from making a grave mistake. Stay away from Walt-Michaels Rv center in Belleville Michigan at all costs!!!
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tander on 03/07/2006:
Wow!! you don't let a grudge go forgotten do you?..Ever wonder why you get those tension headaches, stomach problems, etc?..Cuz you need to let them grudges go..*lol*
Deb P on 03/27/2006:
I, too, am very unhappy with Walt Michaels. Not only were all these service charges added at the time of payment...I was conned into purchasing a 7 year warranty on my Class C Shasta Motor Home. The first time we used it the 'slider' clicked and gave us terrible noise...and the running board to step into the van broke. This happened within the first month and we called the sales person at Walt Michaels and he never returned our calls. We tried to talk with someone else and they kept saying that we had to talk with "Tom Horn" our sales person. Well, since things worked, although not correctly, we figured we would do our camping thing and take the camper back when we could, because we had purchased the $1000+ extended warranty!!!! Well, finally this year (two years later) the slider died, the furnaced didn't work, the radio light didn't work (it was another thing that NEVER) worked... and I found out that I had to take the thing in to Walt Michaels myself, rather than my husband because the vehicle was in my name... Found out that almost NOTHING was under warranty!!! Also, got a call two weeks after I dropped the camper off to say that Walt Michaels LOST my keys and needed me to get them another set in order to complete the work! I live 60 miles away from Walt Michaels. So four days later, I drive the keys down there only to be told that the work was completed! I did not have a way to bring the motor home back to my house...and I was very skeptical the work had been completed. Well, I had planned to pick the camper up today (AFTER thoroughly checking to see if they did what they were supposed to do...) but I had a death in the family and cannot go. So I called Walt Micheals and explained that my brother-in-law could come down to check out the vehicle and pick it up...but NOPE Walt Michaels will not release the vehicle to him!! Well... we plan to purcahse a Class A motor home, along with my brother-in-law within the next two years and you can bet that I WILL not be having anything to do with Walt Michaels. I intend to sent this website with all of these comments to every camping club and all of my friends and the television stations and everywhere I an think of... As soon as your drive off their lot...they don't exist for you. I feel like picketing their premises some Sunday...and maybe I will!!!
dlzuccaro on 02/01/2007:
Just a little update to my original posting of Walt Michaels RV center. We just traded in our trailer in this story for a new model. ALtough we were very pleased with our travel trailer, we realized that we needed more space in the way of a slide-out. I never even considered going back to Walt Michaels. Even though we had the extended 7 year warranty, any repairs that were needed were done by myself. Luckily, we never had any major problems with the trailer since my original posting, and had 6 years of camping fun. After much research for a new floor plan that would fit my growing family, I was able to find what I needed at Vicars RV in Taylor Michigan. I was very pleased with them and can't recommend them enough. A much better buying experience this time around. Initially, I understand that Walt Michaels is on the way out and has filed for Chapter 11. I haven't been able to confirm this yet but It wouldn't surprise me. I haven't heard any Walt Michaels commercials or seen any ads. You can only take advantage of your customers for so long before it comes back to haunt you.
Christopher (I.T.) on 11/14/2007:
It really pains me and Walt himself to hear that such things happen. First, everyone has to realize that we sell RV's every single day. It is EXTREMELY tough for us to communicate constantly between all departments of the Dealership. Believe me when I tell you that if Walt heard about any of this when it happened, he would've been FURIOUS. It is very hard to keep up with customers (which we do anyway) because of the constant change in Salesmen and Staff alike. Walt wants to help everyone out, absolutely everyone. He is NOT by any means trying to make everyone angry with their service. As for the actual service done on units, that is horrible. Since then, Walt has swiped out his Technicians with BRAND NEW people. More Intelligent and Professional people.
The $1,000 on the Hitch is absolutely Manditory. You have to have a hitch. We carry top of the line hitch's here, and we promote maximum safety when you purchase an RV. We definitely DO NOT want you to Roll Over or have a Hitch Break while you and your family are on a camping trip. Practically every single Employee here at the Dealership has been replaced since 2001. We have added extra over-view and management to every department here. Walt has become Wise and Fluctuates with all customers to ensure complete happiness.
A Walk-through consist of many things. Most of it is a professional walking you through the unit and showing you how to use your Gas, Awnings, how to do absolutely everything on it so that you know how to use it. The more things that the unit has, the longer and more detailed the walkthrough is going to be. We want to make sure that you know your unit inside and out. How to dump, how to turn on your generator to make sure your slides come out. How to turn on your gas, everything. The starter kit comes with a hose, hose clamp, chemicals, paint and fab. touch up kit along with many other things to get you started on your Unit. As you can see there is more than just coming in and spending the amount that it says on the RV. We can't just sell someone an RV and say have a great time. We want to make sure, even though you might already know, that you know everything. We are not trying to upset anyone in any way shape or form. Once again, the service that was being performed on your Unit sounds as if someone just plain out was not doing their job. Walt has put a stop to this. For the 3 years that I've worked here, I've seen Walt tear into people because of the smallest things (Spare Tire Covers Even)! I really hope that this didn't put a permanent damper on Walts relationship with you. I'm sure if you or any of your family and friends come in, you will have great service, and an even better time. You can always E-mail me PERSONALLY and I will make sure that this DOES NOT happen again. My E-mail is email@example.com
Oh yes, and Happy Belated birthday to your son. How old is he? 6 now? Must get big quiet fast ;)
P.S. We want to make sure that if you are still in the RV Scene, you are to be taken care of in every aspect imaginable. Thank you for your time, and most of all, thank you for pointing this out to me. Even the worst of things can help Walt and Myself better our actual, and overall look of people upon us.
You can check out our site also, www.wmrvs.com It has changed quiet a bit. I'm the Director of Integrated Technologies (I.T.) here at Walt Michal's. Please Contact me if you would like to speak or 'vent' about this matter further. Once again, thank you.
dlzuccaro on 01/06/2008:
Wow....I must admit. I never thought I would have gotten a response from someone at the Walt Michaels dealership and was pleasantly surprised. This incident happened 7 years ago and I have moved on and am very happy with my current trailer that we purchased last year (2007 Rockwood). I still don't know what motivated me to check the responses to my initial posting but was quite shocked and somewhat satisfied to hear a response from the dealership. A little graciousness goes a long way. I can't tell you the magnitude of negative responses I had received from customers over the past 7 years concerning Walt Michaels and the service they provide.I have traveled from Northern Michigan all the way down to Orlando, and have heard just about every horror story concerning Walt. I find fellow campers to be a tight knit group who love to talk about their trailers and the experiences they have had. I will agree that I have heard Walt Michaels had made plenty of changes in the past several years, particularly more recently. I hope people who shop there will find this to be true. I doesn't take much for businesses to fold, particularly the way the economy is right now. Thank-you "Christopher (I.T.)" for posting a response. The next time I am in the market for a new R.V. I just might consider stopping by for a second chance.
p.s. Thank-you for asking about my son. Yes, he is getting big and he will be 7 this May.
malcolm3or4 on 04/21/2008:
If only I had read your posting before this last Saturday...we had a HORRIBLE experience with this dealer and don't even want to go back to get the camper!!! I have emailed Christopher listed above but I'm not holding my breath waiting to hear back. I was to hear from a manager first thing this morning and it's now noon. I would buy ANYWHERE else before recommending them to anyone!! I have posted my own review titled "Shady sales, worse service".
sfergu4191 on 06/09/2008:
I absolutely agree with the comments made about Walt Michael dealership...we bought a 2003 motorhome from them...the warranty work was never done after they had it for several days..along with that many things were stolen out of the motorhome...when we complained, were told it was not their problem....were told the extended warranty we bought covered "bumper to bumper"... not so!!!! (only covers electronics) Were told that the warranty for the furniture would cover anything...again, not so...doesn't cover anything....We had a hard time finding a dealership to get the warranty work done, as they will not accept a Walt Michael vehicle....Fleetwood referred us to somebody that would take care of us, and they did a good job....would deal with them anytime..
dlzuccaro on 10/25/2008:
Well here I am again. 7 years after my initial posting and still enjoying my second trailer "NOT" purchased from Walt Michaels. We still do a lot of traveling across much of the easter coast. The results are still the same. I am still hearing complaints as far down as Lakewood camping resort in Myrtle Beach S.C. about this dealership. I can only hope this information gets to anyone considering purchasing from this dealership. I have yet to find any positive feedback. You will find people either not knowing who Walt Michals is or just simply having a look of dread on their face. And for those who have read my initial posting and wonder why we just didn't walk away from the sale at the first sign of trouble??? I still kick myself about it today and chalk it up to a tough lesson learned!
shirleylane on 06/04/2009:
My comment is that your complaints about Walt Michael's are absolutely true!!! My experience with them was absolutely terrible, and management at Walt Michael's are extremely unhelpful and even childish in response to any customer issues!!! After my bad experience I have encounter numerous individuals who have also had awful dealings that left them out of a lot of money or aggravated because jobs were done poorly. Never trust any salesmen from Walt Michael's!!! Please ignore the response above from Walt Michael's, they present a professional front but are anything but. Please go anywhere else to purchase your RV to avoid trouble, aggregations, and getting ripped off!!!
Ponie on 06/05/2009:
How did this post get 49 VHs? Did dizuccaro have all his relatives vote? When I read it originally, I completely ignored it because two members of my extended family purchased from Walt Michaels and were pleased with the product and service.
ArtG on 10/06/2012:
I just recently found out that Walt Michaels closed their doors. HOOOORAYYYY!!!! So glad that place is gone. Full of lying crooks with service techs that don't know the first thing about RV's.
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Do not Rent from Walt Michaels RV
Posted by
BELLVILLE, MICHIGAN -- This summer (2006) we decided to take the family camping and the tent method would not work with small children, so we decided to rent a motorhome for a week of camping. Walt Michaels RV advertises to make it easy for "beginner" RV'ers with an instructional DVD and a walkthrough to show how to use the features, so we decided to rent from there. The Walt Michaels RV staff went through a checklist to explain how to use the different systems in the RV and note any damage. On the checklist was the overhead antenna, difficult to see standing next to the motorhome it looked odd...the dome was lower on the backside and higher in the front but not knowing what it is supposed to look like thought nothing of it. So I drove off and for the first 30 miles I heard this clanking above the roof, so I checked the overhead vents and they were tightly closed (In the walk-through they emphasised closing the vents or it could be damaged by the wind resistance).
The next week I returned the RV parked and walked in. There was a short round women bullishly telling staff members about a broken microwave antenna (I thought wow the rental staff nows appliances enough to diagnose the problems of a microwave). Sure enought the top half of the antenaa housing blew away and there was evidence of it being hit. I explained what happened but that did not matter because it was not on the paper work, so sure enough they charge me full retail price and a labor rate approaching aerospace levels of almost $100/hr ( I gues parts and service need to profict off rentals too).
Then the short round woman approached me confrontaionly and asked what did you put in the cargo area? There was a huge gaping hole along the edge of the cargo hold, and I noticed that in the initial walkthrough and was noted...Walt Michaels RV need to be more rigorous in their pre-inspections no staff members noted a huge hole in the RV until I returned it! There were numerous minor items that were broken but I did not dare tell them as first intended or my "repair" bill for things I did not break would be larger....yeah I should charge them 1/2 hour labor time for the vent handle that I installed.
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Doc J on 07/08/2006:
Thanks for your excellent post and warning to others. Some on this site may bash you for not looking at the RV as thoroughly as you should have. However, I think your conduct was about right for someone inexperienced with rentals. My money says the dealer knew about the damage at the time of the rental and was waiting for some pidgeon to walk in to rent it. You, my friend, were that pidgeon. I don't envy you for your position in the matter.
Anonymous on 07/08/2006:
I doubt anyone will "bash" you, DocJ is being a bit dramatic. Good post though, let that be a less to all of us about THOROUGHLY inspecting rentals of any type. (tr)
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Bad Experiences Over And Over
Posted by
j huffman
Walt Michaels RV promised a lot at time of purchase. Items would be taken care of. Particular items were to be replaced not repaired and I made the sales man scratch out repair and write replace on the agreement. Months later parts came in. I brought the trailer back for the repairs with the "promise" that the repairs would have to be done in time for a planned trip. "WRONG". Having to pick the trailer up before the repairs were complete I noticed that the dealership was trying to "repair" items instead of replacing them. They had no intention of replacing parts all along. The sales and service dept. were no help at any-time with any-thing. I've been in there business a few times with friends and family looking for an RV.
After experiencing their rudeness and lack of professionalism they end up somewhere else.
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Use SoT/SotR for a decent aggro lead and don't bother with using consecration during this time. If the lead is big enough just swap to SoI + WoG spam to help smooth out damage.
Hi everyone,
Im a prot pally using SoI most of the time. Yesterday I had a rough time on agro against the DPS of my grp. Basically, I get reached in no times by the top 2DPS and I dont know why. I must be doing something wrong with my rotation or something else. After raid yesterday I changed a couple of glyph and my specs to focus more on single target instead of AoE pull (that helped a lot of what I saw in a Heroics afterwards). But still my GM is telling me I should be using SoT instead of SoI but I get oom so quickly when using SoT that my treat isnt building at all. I would like to know if there is a rotation I should do? Right now Im just throwing out anything that is available to build as much dps/threat possible. With my PP Im certainly using WoG to help healer a little. If any of you have suggestions on build and rotation you can check out my profile on armory.
Alamut/Gorefiend (US)/ oxyd
I know theres still a couple of piece I need to get so dont be rude on the gear, just check glyph, talent tree give me your opinion.
P.S. Sorry for the grammar and spelling mistakes Im French Canadian! ^^
Use SoT/SotR for a decent aggro lead and don't bother with using consecration during this time. If the lead is big enough just swap to SoI + WoG spam to help smooth out damage.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... It wasn't too long ago that DPS was supposed to watch omen and manage their threat. Since the huge jump in DPS, everybody wants to top the Recount DPS list and then they blame the tank when he can't hold agro. As a tank, I call shenanigans!
You need to use SoT a bit and ask your healer if it makes you too hard to heal. If it does, tell your DPS to back off or you all will wipe more often. For mana, put judgement higher in your priority list. That's where most of your regen comes from anyway.
This may all be moot with the HoPo nerf/"bugfix" anyway tho. If it turns out we need to drop avoidance/mastery just so we can get reliable CS/HotR hits, we will have to be in SoI just to stay alive. In that case, however, the reduced misses will help threat too.
It's going to be a tightrope walk, but first we just need to find the rope!
I never use SoI and I do not oom or have healer complaints. I believe the trick is three parts:
Consecration is not the threat god people seemed to assume it was. I rarely use it and have no threat problems. It is not good enough from a threat per mana view for me to use more than occassionally. If my mana is full AND I have at least three mobs up AND everything else is in cd, then I might use it.
Judge more. When Grand Crusader decides to proc every other strike on a pull, it is tempting to keep using it. Nothing says you need to. Don't ignore judgement just because there is more than one mob.
Work your first few GCDs on your primary target and your AoE rotation. After that, start tab targeting your strikes. This helps make consecration unnecessary in most of the situations you used to feel it was.
Also, make sure your rotation is correct. Crusader strike every other ability to maximize your WoG use and fill in between with whatever is off cd, while not skipping too many judgements.
"he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng
Good advice above. I just want to add that nothing will make up for DPS hauling off and nuking any random mob in the pull, which 75% of them still seem dead set on doing. If you don't feel like you're at a place where you can chain pull and AoE zerg Wrath-style, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. You're the tank, you set the pace, and if that means that you want to mark 1st and 2nd kill, and mobs you want to see CC'd by respective members, have at it. If people feel like griping and complaining, let them, or let them leave and sit in queue if they want. Its no skin off your back. You do whatever it takes to make the run as smooth as possible.
For there record, I always run with Seal of Insight up, and a WoG-first / threat-second build, just because you never know what kind of healer you're going to get, and I love being able to heal myself through almost any heroic boss encounter if I have to. All these things considered, no one ever pulls threat off a mob that I am focusing. Really the only time I lose mobs is when a DPS'er (DK usually, it seems) decides to just go balls out, irrespective of what I am targeting. A quick taunt and SotR takes care of that.
Here is a list of 10 concepts that I follow while tanking on my paladin. This is not me telling you what to door what you NEED to do, but more of an explanation of how I play and what has worked for me. So take this with a grain of salt. I hope it helps.
1. Avenger's Shield - Probably one of our biggest threat builders and since we now have rebuke as our main interrupt we can use this all the time. Just be wary around CC'd targets.
2. Divine Plea - Instant 3 Holy Power + Shield of the Righteous = Amazing threat
3. Inquisition - At 3 Holy Power this is 30% extra Holy damge for 12 seconds. NOTE: Only use your 3 Holy Power on this when there's more than 3-4 mobs to maximize it's effectiveness. You could even use this at 1 or 2 Holy Power just as a quick step to threat. It mirrors how some rogues used to use a 3 combo point Slice and Dice to get their rotation going.
4. Consecration/Holy Wrath - Alone these are very nice threat builders, but combine with a Divine Plea and Inquisition and you'll not only see your threat go up, but your DPS will skyrocket.
5. Shield of the Righteous vs. Word of Glory - SotR is a huge threat builder. Personally I rarely ever use WoG, but depending on your build you may use it more. I would just not use it until I went through 2-3 SotR first just to be sure I have a threat lead.
6. Seal of Truth - This seal puts a DOT on anything you smack so if you were one of them tanks that tab-targeted smacking every target once at least puts that DoT on them. Coupled with the glyph (10 expertise or 300 expertise rating) ALL your hits now have an increased chance of not being dodged or parried
7. Judgment - If you use this everything it's off cooldown you'll always have the Judgments of the Wise buff which returns 30% of your mana to you over 10 seconds.
8. Righteous Defense - This is your new best friend when it comes to tanking. I do not know if you are familiar with writing macros or use addons, but make a keybind for this spell and learn to use this well. Personally I use the addon Clique and bound this spell to my right mouse button so that when I hover over my raid frames and right click, all the threat on that party member comes back my way. Much easier than dropping your target and targeting your raid member then casting this.
9. Hand of Salvation - Otherthan Hand of Reckoning and Righteous Defense, this is another invaluable tool. Unglyphed it's a threat over time removal, but glyphed acts as a second Righteous Defense since you are more than likely the next player on the mobs threat meter. Again I use this with Clique as another mouse over and click function.
10. Macros and Keybinds - You should really get used to making macros and keybinds since a lot of our job takes quick manipulation. It may seem silly to a lot but I use cast sequence macros for my basic rotation to save space on my action bar.
For example: /castsequence reset=target Judgment, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike
Again this may seem silly, but it saves one space on my action bar as well as one less thing I have to think about when in combat. Now all I have to do is push another keybind when both of those spells are on cooldown.
As others have said, use SoT (at least early on), don't consecrate much and judge often.
To front load threat, the best opening sequence is:
Divine Plea => Inquisition => Avenging Wrath => Exorcism => Judgement => Avenger Shield
But it sounds from the first post that you do not know the optimal paladin rotation after the pull. It is:
and repeat
where X is a filler from J, AS, HW and consecration.
Typically it would be:
CS-J-CS-AS (or HW)-CS-ShotR
For AOE, use HotR instead of CS and inquisition instead of ShotR. Where you need extra healing and threat is not an issue, use WoG rather than ShotR.
You can read more about it on maintankadin.com, but the key thing is to prioritise generating holy power generators and only use finishers when you have 3 HoPo.
Last edited by theodisius; 02-19-2011 at 05:53 PM. Reason: typo with silly extra X
First off for threat matters = Seal of Truth. Only use SoL ONLY if you've gained a safe threat lead on your dps to help your healers. Second off, you should link you profile to give us a look at your toon for any possible issues.
I call this the following my single target Threat Blast combo...
Divine Plea, Avenging Wrath, Avenger's Shield, Judge, Crusador Strike, and lasty Consecration.
With this order in my book by the time you do all of that, you'll have your avengers shield, crusador strike and judge all up again with others on CD - and use that darn avenging wrath every time it's up.
Two quick tips:
1) I took Consecration off my bars about six weeks ago and haven't missed it. The threat you get from using SoT, and the extra expertise that you glyphed for when using it, will more than make up for the loss.
2) Reforge the Parry on your gear into Mastery. Sanctuary gives you mana back from blocking and Reckoning procs extra attacks from blocking.
How does a PC gamer change a light bulb? He doesn't. He goes on the forums and QQs about it being dark.
As far as reforging parry into mastery? Reforging Parry for mastery is a last option for paladins. Our two best avoidance stats are Parry and Mastery up until you reach the unhittable cap. Dodge is more suitable for reforging before parry since dodge is mostly for Deathknights and not paladins. And when it comes to reforging you should always be reforging to meet the hit and expertise caps then mastery. Save your gem slots and enchants for mastery.
Why is dodge not so good for us? the mana regen from sanctuary does not procc from parries, only from blocks and dodges and parry has no inherant advantage over dodge. They both function in exactly the same way and have exactly the same DR equation.
Also, mastery is the best stat that you can reforge to. I have left a bit of hit and expertise on my gear to stabilise my HoPo generation, but even so, if an item has no mastery on it, you should be reforging so that it does. If you end up reforging parry or dodge to mastery, so be it.
Cons costs over half our mana pool. You cannot afford to use it more than once every minute or so or else you risk running low, and there are other spells which are more useful such as divine radiance (which probably generates more threat due to the healing it does as well as healing your party/raid.
I don't know where to start with the misinformation in this thread ("parry is more for DKs"? Seriously?) but I want to address this clanger at least:
This would be the standard, assuming no CS misses. It WAS the standard, and ran like clockwork, before the HP "bugfix" nerf. At this point, I've reintroduced consecration to bosses, on the occasions were everything else is on CD and I'm not at 3 HP.
And one should never be reforging, gemming, or enchanting for hit or expertise.
So, two things here. First, thanks to vengeance, tank threat is so far ahead of the dps that on a tank and spank fight a paladin can use WoG instead of their hardest hitting ability SotR and they can use SoI instead of SoT. Consecrate isn't the icing, it's the sprinkles - completely superfluous Second, the OP specifically stated that he was forced into using SoI because he was running out of mana. Consecrate eats up a huge chunk of mana for a minor increase in threat. Conversely, the OP could stop using Consecrate and then go back to using SoT, giving him/her a big jump in threat.If you just want to barely hold threat at the expense of saving some mana then go for it, but this is a huge liability especially if the paladin is under hit and/or expertise cap.
Out of curiosity, where are you getting your information? What you have written has some some and some Others have already pointed out the specific errors.As far as reforging parry into mastery? Reforging Parry for mastery is a last option for paladins. Our two best avoidance stats are Parry and Mastery up until you reach the unhittable cap. Dodge is more suitable for reforging before parry since dodge is mostly for Deathknights and not paladins. And when it comes to reforging you should always be reforging to meet the hit and expertise caps then mastery. Save your gem slots and enchants for mastery.
How does a PC gamer change a light bulb? He doesn't. He goes on the forums and QQs about it being dark.
Might add to use Hand of Salvation for someone who keeps pulling threat. Most common flaw in most pallies today is they have no clue when to use their hands (bar protection).
Lol, hit yur dps with a Bop (hand of protection) they will get the message...lmfao
before 4.06 i used SoI very rarely now never i believe the +10 expertise from glyphed SoT is close enough for selfheal (asuming you WoG with your holy power of course)
if you use SoI for mana return then your doing something wrong - probably using too much cons.
i personally removed cons from my bars since untalented (and why would you talent it) it eats into your ability to use holy radiance.
Most of these guys have pretty correct, with a couple I don't agree with. Just before the pull set off Divine Plea (free 3 HoPo) and pull with Avenger's Shield. As soon as the boss is in melee, punch it in the face with Shield of the Righteous then start your regular 'rotation' priority order. Crusader Strike, Judgement, CS, Avenger's Shield/Holy Wrath, CS, SotR. Once Vengence kicks in you'll be hitting harder and your threat levels should be beyond your highest DPSers, making Word of Glory a better use of you 3 HoPo to help out on heals and survivability. Judgement will help you with your mana regen (I've never had a problem personally while using SoTruth unless hammering it out on training dummies with no raid mechanics to move around with). Avenger's Shield has a higher priority than Holy Wrath, but sometimes it just doesn't proc for you to be using it again 12 seconds later (I'm only talented 1/2 Grand Crusader).
A big thing I did in my guild is set up a thread in my guild forums to state to the DPS "I am not hit capped, I may miss on the pull. Do not go all out for about 6 seconds once the boss is in place" type thing. You can tell them that with the current tier/gear it's hard to be hit/exp capped and survive because of healer mana and you would rather avoid/mitigate damage over stronger DPS (as what tanks are built for).
As far as Consecration, I also took it off my bars/rotation and unglyphed it. It sucks at times in Heroic pulls, but hopefully you have CCs out and you have Hammer of Righteousness and Holy Wrath to gather everything while marking priority mobs. Consecration is a mana drain and isn't that much of a DPS boost to be worth it for me. But, that's a play style one would have to get used to.
I think this thread got into reforging/gemming, so my quick two cents: My remaining blues I put (in order) haste>crit>parry>dodge>mastery into hit to help out. As for my 359s, I've reforged (if possible) parry to mastery or parry to dodge, but left my dodge and mastery pieces alone. I've been lucky enough to recieve pieces with expertise and hit to help those stats, but am currently working on my avoidance rating. As for gems (I've switched 3 times) but currently parry/stam for reds, mastery/stam for blues, straight mastery for yellows and pure stamina for prismatic. Others may disagree with my choices, but another of the personal play style options that can be adjusted.
My only authority behind my tips that may help is being 8/12 as a main tank in a 25-man semi-hardcore/casual progression guild. Hope this helps \o/
This threat thread is pretty handy.. Seems like Consecreate should be in there at leaast within buttons reach.. I do use Cons but you have to be oh so careful to follow with judgement.
Link Paladin Threat Values "Cata"


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