text:
I doubt you'd see tank deaths as a result from Edge's mythical steady yet large incoming DPS boss anyway. I think in this scenario, since you can't go from 100 -> 0 without many intervening steps, groups would have success throwing more healers at it until the problem was fixed. Bliz would have to have a strict enrage timer to enforce bringing a minimum amount of DPS.
What you'd actually see are complaints along the lines of "ZOMG how can we POSSIBLY beat Boss X before he enrages while we have to bring 10 healers to heal through his Ultra X-Smite?"
It'd be nifty, but I think that sort of thing would be more interpreted as a DPS challenge - and those have a way of disappearing as gear increases.
Steady consistent damage on the low end won't happen because it is too easy and to uninteresting to heal.
That said, they can and do find different ways to make it interesting with encounter mechanics and boss moves. They've also suggested that they don't want tank healing to be an all-on-all-the-time thing, where the tank has dedicate spammed heals constantly to keep them alive.
The idea is to resurrect some of the mana considerations of BC without the burst damage potential of crushing blows to mess up conscientious healing. They said point blank, they would like the tanks to be able to survive a while so healers can tend to other concerns and come back to the tank as needed. I take this to mean lower avoidance, more consistent unpredictable damage (i.e. no crushing blows, crits, and 40k per hit bosses are not the norm), and more raid damage and interesting encounter design. They've definitely stepped up their game over the years on the last part.
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
Your reasoning is fine, and easy to understand.
And yes, i agree, it seems a way to bring back wow tanking / healing to what it was pre-bc when the concept of spamming overheals was actually something wrong.
Yes.. they have tried different ways of reduce the impact of high avoidance rates, related to healing. Vezax is a good example, you have to watch your mana bar.
And they have also tried to mix different kinds of damage (frost, fire, shadow,etc) to the basic boss spanking the tank.
Thats fine. Nevertheless, and i would like you to think wow is not an in developement product, its not an optimal solution. Its just throwing a patch on broken stuff.
I think most of veteran players already when the BC came tought wtf is wrong with blizzard and the new items stats. There was a real big gap. And they made the mistake of making this gap wider. So yes, this need to be fixed. Ok, bravo, they fixed it this way. But reccon that this is cutre (from spanish, roughly meaning shabby).
Game mechanics are the base of our game. You can add nice desings and cool effects.. light or sound, whatever. But a game thats being out there 4+ years should not be loosing balance at this point.
Next thing you can expect is .. dps is too high.. lets add a -20% hit aura. Now that would be cutre.
Too high dps can be solved by more hp.
The long-term solution to too much avoidance doesn't look like it can be much different than "let's give bosses expertise", even with cat's drop. It's a fine one as long as it's done on a seamless manner instead of "oops, 20% less dodge".
And that's why we don't usually aim to get more avoidance. But like I said, avoidance is important since without it tanks would die. Just stating the obvious, which is kinda silly - I know.
GC often say the same regarding avoidance, and it always sounds as if he misunderstands the community's pov, or maybe the community misses his.
Having ~50-60% avoidance IS important over having 0% avoidance (ye, I know. I feel like just writing this sentence lowers my IQ by quite a bit).
Ridiculously high avoidance levels in relation with DPS intake is plain redundancy. The latter reflects current avoidance mechanics better, and that's why they change it.
The funny thing is though, if avoidance were removed tomorrow and boss damage tweaked to compensate, tanking and healing would become enormously trivial.Having ~50-60% avoidance IS important over having 0% avoidance (ye, I know. I feel like just writing this sentence lowers my IQ by quite a bit).
The very existance of avoidance is a detriment! =D
All elements exist in a balance.
Usually criticisms of the system come from misunderstanding the elements and how they are used and counter-pointed.
Consider for a second that Blizz has been 7 years in developing this game, and 5 of them with millions of people play testing it.
I'd amend one common statement:
"Damage spikes kill tanks, not consistent damage intake."
I would say, 'surprise' damage kills tanks. If damage is constant, predictable, and consistent, like Bovinity said, tanking and tank healing become trivial. You could just have NPC's do it so players can do something more interesting. Spikes of damage won't necessarily kill the tank unless the tank doesn't have enough health for the encounter, or the balance is off (rare if it is live). If a tank dies to expected damage, the system is broken or the healers/tanks are somehow insufficient. Surprise stacks of damage taken (i.e. Gormok aligning melee with Impale) will kill a tank, and it's a failing in the system *if* it cannot be prevented or countered through strategy and healer skill.
Avoidance allows tanks to take less damage and keep things interesting for tank healing in the process. Avoidance itself does not make spikes bigger, it never increases damage taken, only reduces. But, this whole thread was aimed at illustrating how avoidance going too high can mess up other elements in the balance and make it less fun to play because the tank can be killed without the healers being able to stop it.
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
The problem is still game design. For virtually every boss fight, if you could trade every ounce of avoidance into armor, resist, and stamina, you would, and healers would thank you.
I also fail to see how avoidance makes tank healing any different. Healers spam, nonstop. There is no reactive healing, no heal cancellation. Bosses need to hit for about 1/3rd their current amount and mana needs to become an issue before that changes.
Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior SpreadsheetOriginally Posted by Ion
Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides
Do you guys think that if they do that bosses hitting more often, less harder, and more avoidable attacks... Block could be really useful again?? like "avoidance tanks" usable
It got longer than I had expected, but what the hell. This is what happens when you're sitting in a hospital bed and miss WoW.
MudNova:I would say block will have a greater influence, but I don't know what you mean by ""avoidance tanks" usable". If you take a 3.2 pie chart that describes your mitigation, and compare it with a future 3.3 chart, I believe you'll see a greater chunk of block related mitigation on the latter.
In my opinion there are two reasons for this, one of which you mentioned, so I'll start with the other. The role of avoidance in mitigating damage will decrease, while block keeps on scalling relative to content. Furthermore, since boss damage on hit would be decreased (again - relative to content), and shield block chances&values are to go up with ICC gear. So basically, we're looking on two effects that are likely to increase the usefulness of blocks. However, the effect can very well be so minor that gear and enchants related stats decisions will remain as they currently are.
Edgewalker: In a plain mathematical theory, avoidance shouldn't make any difference if you reach a certain cap which varries for encoutners, tanks and healers [this is not the avoidance cap I mentioned earlier - it's a 'softer' cap]. Healers constantly spam heal the tanks, and from a certain level of avoidance it will look as if every extra % in dodge/parry becomes extra overheal, and thus being ineffective.
Avoidance works on probability, and so do people.
The arguments written in the paragraph above don't take into account those psychological factors in situations of uncertainty, which greatly effect us all in our daily lives, and here in WoW. A tank will be low on HP when the conditions are right even in relatively easier content. Those situations in which there's an unforeseen damage spike or a healing deficiency, is where that extra dodge/parry might come in handy and keep your HP on a non-critical level. Bare in mind that if we take that extra dodge and turn it for 5k HP, the same tank in the same situation would get to a critical HP level, a scenario that could have been prevented by that extra dodge. Off course minor damage spikes and minor healing deficiencies happen all the time and you cannot rely on avoidance to eliminate those situations, but the probability of these situations and their level of threat on the tank varies for encounters, healers and tanks. When a tank gets critical it's in a danger of dying, no matter how good the healers/tank are. If this happens, cooldowns are used, and every bit of luck could matter (Avoidance anyone?).
Probability Matters
If your HP gets too low and too many times, psychology kicks in. Healers (and tanks) who feel that their tank (themselves?) gets too low, too many times, will have a more liberal criteria on when to throw in CDs, which increases their chance of effectively blowing those CDs away so by the next time they need it, it won't be there to keep the tank alive. Furthermore, healers with not trust in their tank will tend to get frustrated and thus underperform. Those critical situations happen all the time, but it's a matter of probability. The more it happens, the more likely it is to have a negative effect on the tank and healers.
It's not that avoidance is more or less important than EH. It's just that it's different. Don't talk ill of avoidance, though you'll rarely find me gemming/enchanting for it.
One more word about uncertainty: this is what makes us all hooked on WoW (not only avoidance, but also those constant content and game mechanics tweaks).
Last edited by Adrael; 11-19-2009 at 05:49 AM.
As much as i'd like it to, from what i gathered the icecrown bosses would hit for similar amount but obviously they'd be hitting you more often to increase the avergae incoming damage on a tank. So in 25 man/10 man hard I doubt it would be realistic to reach a high enough level of SBR/SBV to make it truly viable. And well, if you're avoiding less then you have a bigger "gap" to fill up with SBR which makes it even less do-able. It may be possible to have a decent blocky set (not gung ho all out block, just a nice baalnce) in 10 man normals but that's not going to be a major concern of 99% of people who think deeply enough into their gear to balance such a set. why balance a nice block set when you can go in there with 60k HP and just brute force it without any difficulty anyway?
Xíanth <Valkyria>
Right now your healers may spam heal you, but that you don't take a hit on every swing allows them room for when they can't spam on you, like when they're moving out of the fire.
I know you think it's a good idea, and I *wish* you could see what it's like if you got your wish so you could understand why it is not a good direction for the game, at all.
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
I created a Tankspot account because Chill of the Throne has been bothering me so much lately and I can't seem to find anything on this subject anywhere else. I tanked all of Sunwell and I dealt with the radiance by stacking the best avoidance pieces with dodge gems. I did this because of some formula (that I can't find) that showed avoidance vs. EH and which was was more important at what avoidance/EH levels.
Once ToGC becomes obsolete and we're into hardmodes I'm probably going to go back to this system of gemming, but possibly a little less extremely.
What I was wondering though, was how does Chill of the Throne interact with Dodge DRs? I don't want to look like an idiot to my many grasshoppers on my server and I certainly don't want to let down my guild by being massacred in ICC for having lower HP than I did in TOGC.
It doesn't interact. If you had 32% dodge for DR before Chill of the Throne, then you'll still have 32% dodge DR after CotT (and effectively only 12% dodge).
And I agree with Satorri, if tanks couldn't avoid we healers could never ever move from a fire. Yes it's praying while running, so that the tank won't take 3 unavoided hits in a row. Part of the reason why the high bossdamage we have now is so bleh from a healerperspective.
-- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
What I'm reading is that gemming dodge in order to compensate for Chill of the Throne wouldn't put you effectively at 12% dodge if you had 32% on your character sheet to begin with. It would be adjusted for the DRs and leave you with less, which is kind of silly.
Well it's as simple as taking your entire dodge (without Chill of the Throne) and taking 20% off it.
However as Satorri said in the OP, you do not actually end up being more squishy. Yes, the tank will take ~15%-20% more damage due to there being a new raid-tier. But he won't take more damage as a direct result of CotT, because it will be figured into the damage-per-hit. In other words if you were to apply Chill of the Crusader (^_^) to ToC, the tanks would not have higher incoming DPST.
-- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)


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I'm not sure where to start. I bought a Droid Incredible and broke it in the first month. I tried to add the insurance through Verizon Customer Service. They told me they would process a claim and call me back within 7 days. So after about 10 days, and not hearing from them, I called back and the new customer representative said in the notes of my account it says they would call me back within 30 days and I said they told me 7 days and she was very rude and said it's 30 days, so I hung up and waited another 20+ days and not to my surprise, they never called. So I assumed my claim wasn't accepted and I continued to use my phone (very little) as it still worked just the screen was shattered (which is another story on the lack of durability of that phone). But after about 3 months, I decided it wasn't worth it to keep it as I couldn't really travel with it or take it anywhere, so I decided to cancel my service. This is about 5 months after signing the contract. So I cancelled and told the customer representative that I tried to work with Verizon, but no one seemed to care what my problem was, so now I'm cancelling and will get the new iPhone from AT&T. So after about a week, someone from the "win you back" team called me and THEY CALLED ME. To Win me back. She said what if I can get you a new Droid Incredible for free, a free month of service and waive the early termination fee (ETF), would you be interested in coming back to Verizon. And I said, well for that offer, sure I would consider it. So she put me on hold for a while then came back to the phone and said "I'm sorry, but I can't do that"...ARE YOU KIDDING ME! She called me and offered me a deal and then TOOK IT BACK! I was speechless and she revised the offer based on the fact that it had been less than 6 months on my contract (which she should have known when SHE CALLED ME) and I said NO THANK YOU. To have someone working in your Win you back team who makes an offer they can't give, is ridiculous and terrible service in my opinion. But based on my Verizon experience, this was really no surprise. So a month later, I get the $349 early termination fee ($49 of the total was taxes) and I went on Verizon's website once again to see what I can do and saw that Verizon now has the iPad, which I wanted. So I called and finally this girl was incredibly helpful (they're always helpful when you're buying something) and she signed me up for a MIFI contract for 2 years and waived the ETF and it's only $20/month, so in the long run a much better deal than the $349 ETF for nothing and I can actually use the MIFI. So then she gave me another number to call to order the iPad which was a bundle offer with the MIFI and a free case. So the next morning I called Verizon to order the iPad through the telephone sales department. And I wait anxiously for my new iPad and MIFI, (which by the way isn't really the optimum way to get 3G), but worked for me because of the ETF I owed. So my iPad and MIFI come in the mail, but no case. So I called Verizon only to get the run around ONCE AGAIN. The customer representative and I spent another hour on the phone arguing about whether or not I had bought the "bundle" and whether or not I deserved the $20 iPad case and the $4 MIFI case. I mean $4 case and that's retail....So once again I'M SPEECHLESS. He called in the Telephone sales department in Pittsburgh as that is where he can see I purchased the iPad from and she said No that was ordered from West Coast and gave him another number to call. So he called that number and he said no that was midwest and so I said (as I'm conferenced in the call) that this is unbelievable we just called the midwest and they sent us to you and he got mad and asked my representative to put me on hold and he refused to speak to me. Oh, and by the way, I asked several times to speak to a supervisor and he refused to let me speak to a supervisor....SOME CUSTOMER SERVICE. So after over an hour of the run around, I had to get off the phone and this customer representative was supposed to keep working the issue and call me back. AND GUESS WHAT.....HE NEVER CALLED BACK. So I went on-line and bought myself a case (not from Verizon) and I WILL NEVER DO BUSINESS WITH VERIZON AGAIN. How many customer service departments does Verizon have? Why can't you call Verizon and talk to someone who can sell you a MIFI and an iPad (and the case)? Why can't you talk to one person who has the authority to "win you back"? Very complicated customer service organization. When their own employees can't navigate their organization, it's over complicated.
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MRM on 11/13/2010:
That is a disappointment that your Droid broke. If you're interested, Virgin has an Android phone and the lowest plan starts at $25/month. No contracts, no hidden fees, no early termination fee!
MRM on 11/13/2010:
Get your Virgin Mobile Android phone at Target, Best Buy, or Radio Shack TODAY!
tnchuck100 on 11/13/2010:
I had never thought about it before but here is why the government will not stop or restrict early termination fees (ETF's):
"...I get the $349 early termination fee ($49 of the total was taxes)"
They make a mint on the tax part! Why in the world would they do anything to eliminate that income source? They won't!
getoverit on 11/13/2010:
I mentioned this in another comment, so at the risk of being redundant: We were moving from Maryland to Virginia - a distance of like 35 miles. We had Verizon DSL and land line service at the time. My wife calls them up to tell them when to to switch the service to the new number.
But it's not that easy. She had to make separate calls for the 1) Maryland land line, 2) Maryland DSL, 3) the Virginia land line, AND 4) Virginia DSL. That just shows you how disconnected (no pun intended) that organization is.
When you talk to people there, they speak in terms of different companies, as if there's no reason they would know anything more about what a different Verizon division is doing that you do. It's truly incredible and just one aspect of why customer service at Verizon is next to useless.
MRM on 11/13/2010:
Hey "Getoverit" welcome to the 757! (Virginia area code) Glad that you could join your fellow Virginians, Incrediblelee, HotHead, and I!
Anonymous on 11/13/2010:
Verizon will never learn. They just paid out a $21 million dollar suit because of their unfair ETF policies. I guess the $350 fee is their way of recouping their losses. I do not know why anyone bothers to use them - they nickel and dime you to death for the same thing you can get at other carriers. Sprint and Verizon are the only CDMA carriers and the latest and greatest phones usually come out in GSM. Then a few months down the road, they make a CDMA version which SPRINT usually gets, then a few months after that Verizon latches on. Then they disable all the cool features and charge you more for it. The monthly fee is much higher than the Sprint counterparts, and when you get sick of their crap, you pay twice as much to get rid of them. They think they are King now but it won't be long before folks catch on and they start losing market share to companies like Virgin and Sprint who offer more for less. I hate Vzw.
Getoverit ---> Welcome to VA!! I am in the 804 - can't afford the 703 and 757 like you wealthy folks...lol.
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Verizon Wireless - they never work for you
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ATLANTA, GEORGIA -- Each time when you call Verizonwireless, it welcomes you by the logo "We never stop working for you". However, this is a shameless lie. In fact, it is very willing to apologize to you but will never solve any issues you were trapped in. Here is my story.
I was charmed by Verizon Wireless' advertisement of their coverage area when I was to travel coast-to-coast this summer, and bought a national plan. The trouble was started from the first day I own it and never stopped and get solved through their customer service. I was a loyal customer at the beginning but now I am thinking of getting rid of it even with the cost of more than $200 penalty.
A. "free phone" with extraordinary high tax
I was supposed to be given two "FREE" phones however the shop charged me more than $40 of
taxes under the claim that the tax was counted by the retail value of the phones, which they labelled about $250 each. However, next day I found that the original price of this kind of phones was only
about $60 each. The tax must have been swallowed by the unfaith dealer.
B. Battery life as low as 30% announced and was certified "normal"
The manual book of the cell phones said that the battery could last 200 hours stand-by and could talk up to 240 minutes. However, the second day I found that the battery was exhausted and I actually talked no more than 20 minutes. I returned to the store and asked for an replacement but they just told me that this was normal because the theoretical maximum last time was measured
under a Verizon tower! And the actual battery life was typically 40% or less because most of the areas was only 2-3 stars. Why can't they just tell the average lifetime of batteries? Who would only use
cell phones under a wireless tower?
C. Charger only charge under your supervise
Then the very next week we noticed that the charger was hard to get a trustful contact with the cell phone and I asked for replacement. They replaced it but the problem remained.
But those were only the start of the troubles.
D. Dead spots in urban Atlanta and they don't care
We then moved to the other coast. And to be our astonishment, in Great Atlanta, the cell phone could not receive strong enough signal in my apartment community! Verizonwireless' customer service just told me that my area should have been well covered by a Verizon tower 3 miles away and refused to do any in-situ evolution. Thus my dream of using cell phone as home phone was broken and I had to swallow the cost of more than $30 a month for another home phone line, in a "well covered" area!
E. The plan design is used as excuse of refusing improve service under unusual situation
Then the real trouble comes. Since the main purpose of the cellphone was for keeping contact with my wife, we purchased a "family shared plan". And we had never need more than 400 peak minutes for calling others. However, since the cellphone did not work in the Atlanta apartment, I have to call the
home phone for talking with my wife, which was always done through cell phones priorly, and got charged air time. This input nearly 300 minutes of extra peak air time penalty into the family plan, and greatly limited the availability of the cellphone for talking with friends in other states. I tried to negotiate with Verizonwireless about including my home phone number into the free-to-call list, even with a fee. However, they coldly refused by "cannot create a unique plan for you"! Even, as a computer software specialist, I am very clear how easy can this be, just add my home phone number into their cell phone number data base. The only thing they'd like to do was to tease me into a more expensive plan.
F. Cheating dealer is not cared by the company and they just like to make money through the cheated customers
For the same reason, we for the first time called over 400 minutes peak time while we was made in believe that our limit was 400 minute EACH LINE, which I double checked with the California dealer before we bought
the plan. I was told a lie. This cost me $40 and Verizonwireless refused any option of reducing my cost, no matter taking the excuse or temporarily treat me as a 500 minute customer for the particular month or
rollover the extra minutes into the next month. The very second day I noticed an advertisement saying that minutes rollover plan was now an option offer by another cellphone service provider.
G. "Easy move" made me uneasy and costed me $16 in the dark
Mean time, I called their "Easy move" department for getting my phones local numbers. They did it in a couple of minutes. I thought it was a great job however I was totally wrong. I got my money stolen again. In the next billing circle I realized the bill was separated into "California part" and "Georgia part". And
my California last month statement was missing and nobody told me how was my 1-month-in-advance payment was used. Then I called Verizonwireless again and they just coldly told me that they had no way to combine my Georgia billing circle with the California one, and I had no option but apply by myself to their California branch for a refund! I did this and after nearly three month (!) and get a $18 check from
their Califronia branch. How curious! My California billing circle started from the 4th, and the "easy moving" happened on the 19th. I only used half of the California month and 70% of my pre-payment was gone.
Where was my another $14? Without a California last statement, I can only guess that they also cut my free air time in the middle of the month and charged the extra! What a trick of making money! Be sure
to use their "Easy move" at the last day of your origin!
H. Hardwire repair is not available for most dealers
And the troubles kept going. The plug of the ear set I bought with the phones broke in the jack without and reason. And none of the retail stores we visited in the last month had a way to extract it. One of our phones was disabled in vehicle plus a $20 loss of the ear set. No warrant since we cannot go back to the retail store we bought the phones.
I. Rapid dial steals your air time and overhear your activity
Over all of these one-time troubles, I often got suspicious nonsense voice mails in my box and suspicious call-out minutes on my bill. The Verizonwireless customer service got no idea about what was happening until I occasionally noticed that it automatically assign a fast-dial code for every saved numbers. And those code got activated if the phone got compressed in my pocket or bag. How stupid! I disabled all fast-dial
and stopped the dirty trick. Thanks to myself but not useless Verizonwireless' no-oriented customer service specialists.
The very yesterday I heard from my colleague that he got a national plan from another provider with 4 times more peak minutes and all others the same, with $10 more than my plan. It seems that the time is coming for me to get rid of Verizonwireless and let them enjoy the 3 months stop-contract fee.
I am going to say good-bye to erizonwireless and hope the trash company goes to hell sooner or later.
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Anonymous on 10/19/2003:
I was offered a job with this company, now I'm glad I turned it down!
Anonymous on 10/20/2003:
Not to sound like I'm defending Verizon, but there are number untruths or just misunderstandings of wireless service in your post:
I work in the wireless industry so this may clear things up for you a little as far as why carriers do things the way they do.
A: "free phone"
As we all know, nothing in this world is free, (so why expect a "free phone" from a wireless service provider), In the case of Verzion like many other carriers the phs. are actually manufactered by third parties (I.e. Nokia, Ericsson, Motorola etc.), and that carrier charges the provider a certain amount for each ph. of course at a discounted rate because the carrier is purchasing in bulk, but the industry average has been quoted anywhere between 200.00 and 400.00 (and you can only expect that number to rise for some time with the introduction of camera phones and other technological advances) This extrodinary price, then brings us to the contracts, the only way a wireless provider stands a chance of recouping the billions of dollars spent on getting new customers is by placing you under contract for one of 2 reasons: 1.) To recoup the cost spent on equipment. (With the previous cost quote, you should be able to understand why it would get costly to let everyone just "skip out" with a new phone. or 2.) With more aggressive carriers to simply increase profits (I.e. carriers who require a new contract with any changes to your account)
B. Battery life as low as 30%
Do you honstley believe this is Verzion's fault? Unless the phone was manufactered by Verizon themselves (which is highly doubted) can you be upset at them because you received a lemon? Many phones do have manufacter's warranties, but those issues should be handled with the manufactuer directly (and this is just speaking in reference to personal experience). Now the location of a phone in relation to a tower can be improved or diminished (and I am pleased that you are aware of this) But a common misconseption is "I can see the tower from here" I have been in this industy for 8 years now, and I cannot tell a Verizon tower from a Cingular tower or any other tower for that matter. Contrary to popular belief towers do not have markings like Fighter planes.
C. Charger issue
Again is this a Verizon issue or the manufacturer of your phone?
D. Dead spots
No wireless carrier can guarantee service anywhere, no I get your drift about being in Atlanta, but consider this, if you were in the wilderness with a number of high trees, you would more than like have little or no service, so why expect anthing different from tall buldings, the height of the phones surrondings can greatly effect the signal picked up by a wireless phone, (simply put if it worked every where it would no longer be wireless, but instead it would be a home ph. with a long cord on it)
E. The plan
As far as the wireless plan, yes more info could have been provided to you, but surprisingly enough service providers DO NOT like customer going over their minutes. A good representative (either store or customer service) will tell you it is cheaper to have more minutes than you are going to use. When a customer goes over the mins. that same customer tends to look poorly on the provider as if it is the provider's fault and not theirs often times resulting in a termination of their service. As with the free number (your home phone) if companies allowed this to happen don't you think everyone would do it, and leaving less chances to make money for the wireless carrier. And who would make up that cost, other consumers, America has been here for 200 years, if any one is going to make pay for something it is the people that go to work everyday. We seen it with the taxes and the so called tax brackets, and now with wireless service it will never end.
F. Cheating dealer
This indirect agent idea is running rampant in the wireless industry, nothing can explain this more than greed. The wireless industry is booming, and everyone wants a cut. So in comes the middle man selling every carriers service, and the carriers really having nothing to say or that they really can due to stop it. On the reverse side without indirect agents many smaller carriers would never has survived as long as they have.
H. Hardware
Once again is this the service providers issue or the manufacturer? Depending on the type of ph. you have you may be able to find a technician that will service your phone. Particularly, Nokia.....By far Nokia has been the most afluent in being able to provide convenient repair locations. But of course you may not have had a Nokia phone or accessory. I also must give a distant second place to Motorola, and finally ericsson. (of course these are the 3 largest phone manufacturers in the United States at the time)
I. Rapid dial
Is this the service providers fault that the manufactuer placed speed dial software in your phone for convenience, and the phone was accidentally in your pocket. and dialed a number? I think not, you would come off better blaming the manufacturer for placing speed dial as an available feature. I'm sure the provider didn't say make sure you keep your phone in your pocket, so we can rack up some charges from you. Now true they could have issued some type of courtesy adjustment. But then again it is not their error. in fact 99% of the phones available on today's market allow you to use the keypad lock feature. to avoid inadvertently dialed calls, so is this Verizon's fault because your manual was not read.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash you, but customers are not always right, and sometimes with a little reasoning you can see both sides of the story, True wireless service providers do have issues, but remember this is a fairly young industry, less than 15 yrs. ago "Bag phones" were in.
Anonymous on 12/22/2003:
Welcome to the club
You have a right to complaint about Verizon Wireless this is the way they do business.
You want action on your complaint here. I suggest that you file a complaint with you State Attorney General. Verizon will have to file a report with the Attorney General as to how Verizon Wireless handled your complaint.
You should also get your message out to more readers by posting on other websites like my3cents.
www.planetfeedback.com and www.newnetwork.org.
The more people that are involved in issues like yours. The quicker the Attorney Generals will take action against these companies that deal in deception and faults advertisements.
Together we become a mighty powerful
Good Luck
youngwolff on 11/26/2005:
Regarding charging the tax for the "free" phone on the high retail price: I had this problem, also. I understand that they must charge sales tax on the full retail price, but we paid over $60 in sales tax on two phones, because the "full retail price" was listed as $369.99 per phone (as if they ever sell even one phone at that price!). What really got me was when, the day after this, we see two separate ads from the local newspaper for the same phone--listing the "regular retail price" as $249.99 in one, and $149.99 in the other! One ad offered an immediate discount of $100 plus a $100 mail-in rebate; the other just offered the $100 mail-in rebage (pus a free Bluetooth headset). In both, the final price to the consumer was $49.99.
I looked online at Verizon's website, and they advertise that phone's "regular price" as $149.99. The ONLY place I could find a retail price of $369.99 was in the very fine print on the display card in the store.
When I asekd three sales people in the store about it, I got varying answers from "that's the sale price" (I pointed out that "regular retail price" does not mean "sale" to anyone on the planet); to "that's after the rebates" (I walked them through the math from $249.99 retail, less $200 mail-in, less $100 store discount - $49.99--so no, it was NOT after the rebates).
Eventually they just basically that the "regular retail price" is whatever the marketing department decides to advertise it as, but no matter what, you will pay the sales tax on the "full retail price" of $369.99. I pointed out that this is intellectually dishonest, whether it's legal or not. The consumer has a very hard time finding out what this phone will REALLY cost them.
Again, I have no gripe paying the taxes I owe, and I recognize that they must follow state law on charging sales tax. But their advertising is deceptive, inconsistent, and misleading.
Nick J on 02/27/2007:
I sypmpathize with you wholeheartedly. I too am Atlanta GA resident who has had to go head to toe with this ROTTEN company. I almost had a stroke in one of their stores they had me so mad.
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Technical Support Fiasco
Posted by
We live in a rural area and have had cellphone service since our local phone company put up cell towers, over 10 years ago. All the towers around us were owned by Midwest Wireless, who sold out to Alltel, who sold out to Verizon last year. We had great coverage in our area even though it is quite hilly. Before Verizon took over, if we had any problems we would call customer service and everything would be fixed within hours. We were happy consumers. Not any more!
In April of this year, we went from having 3 to 5 bars of service at home to 0 to 2 bars. Calls were garbled, dropped, or unable to be made or received. Conversations were impossible for more than 10 seconds. We conduct some of our business from our home and using our cellphones became impossible. I called Verizon's technical support and was directed to try reprogramming our phones. When that didn't change anything, I was told that we might be needing a network extender, which they would supply for free and that the "Can you hear me now" person would be coming to our home within 72 hours to check our signal. This was assuming that they found nothing wrong with the towers in the area.
Things did improve slightly. Some cell conversations were not too garbled, but we still had no service(my husband's phone keeps telling him that he's leaving the service area, while he's sitting in the house!) and had 0-2 bars of coverage. We were very busy, so I waited until the beginning of June before calling again, since I knew that it would be another hour plus phone call. I have now called a total of 7 times, with no call being under an hour.
We still have no service most of the time. We can not receive nor make calls reliably. We have tried calling each other at home and some of the calls never even register as missed calls...nothing! I have talked to at least 14 people at Verizon, since you never get connected to Tech Support first, even if you punch the correct buttons in the phone maze. You always end up talking to Customer Service, who, when pushed, will eventually connect you to Tech Support.
I have been told that the field tech "could not find the address" multiple times, even though I supplied, not only the address, but the GPS coordinates, the nearest major intersection, and the driving directions from a major city. My tickets have been escalated at least twice and closed out without my being contacted multiple times. I was told that I didn't have enough dropped calls for anyone to bother checking our service(well, when you have NO SERVICE you won't have many dropped calls!)
The latest ticket has supposedly not been resolved and was opened more than 2 weeks ago. I was told that I would get a call back a week ago Wednesday. Instead, a text message was sent to my husband, saying that the issue was still open and to expect the call a week ago Friday. When no one had called by last Friday, I called again. I was told that the ticket was still open and nothing could be done until it was closed. The representative could not tell when that would be. I asked to speak to a supervisor. I was told that there were none available, but that I would be contacted by the supervisor within 48 hours. I left my cell phone number, my home telephone number, and my email address. Guess what? That deadline came and went a few hours ago with no call or email.
I have now been told that I need a network extender, but they won't send me one until they verify my signal, but they can't verify my signal if they don't come out to my house, but they won't come out to my house since they don't know where I live, since they obviously don't know how to use directions, maps, or GPSs.
I could understand all of this if we had never had cell phone service at this location, but we had great coverage for years. The only difference that I can see is that we now have a company that can't seem to fix cell tower problems or really cares about customer service.
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Weedwhacked on 07/25/2010:
It's possible that your original cell phone carrier had the permission of the FCC to use a higher power transmission than Verizon does. If your signal has dropped its possible that the extender would bring your signal back up to where it used to be.
Verizon cannot simply boost their power because of the constraints they get from the FCC.
idontthinkso on 07/26/2010:
Weedwacked, that might be true. But it doesn't excuse the incompetent way the situation was handled. Verizon is a large, successful company, but it's individual parts have no internal communication worth mentioning. The company is simply fine to deal with, until you have a problem.
tnchuck100 on 07/26/2010:
Corporate priority functions are billing and payment processing. Handling customer issues comes just after taking out the trash and cleaning the restrooms.
Anonymous on 07/26/2010:
I have found Verizon's service to be predictably unpredictable. It is guaranteed that I will have no bars around 5am, and often in the late evening, while everyone around me with a different service provider seems to have no problem with clarity or connection.
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Verizon fraudulent billing practices
Posted by
CRANBERRY TWP, PENNSYLVANIA -- Verizon Wireless is using fraudulent billing methods on Cell phones. One my phone bill went form $160.82 to $342.46 in one month. I called Verizon Wireless and asked for the details of the cell phone bill. I had already gone over the Verizon Wireless bill line by line. In the Verizon cell phone bill for the cell service for my family was a data charge of $183.64 for my service period from April 14 to May 13, 2010. I have no data service, and all my phones of my family we asked Verizon to be data blocked when we got phones that can do data. On May 2 one of our cell phones ran up thirteen hours of data usage. It belong's to my daughter she is 26, and she knows what she did on the day in question May 2,2010. She knows she ran no data on her phone. She is a college graduate, and an M. D. My daughter says other than calling me, and my other daughter her phone log then shows this thirteen hour hook up for data she did ask for, nor approve any hook up to anything for data on her phone on the day the phone company Verizon bill rang up the fraudulent charges. The phone hooked up after one of her phone calls is all we can figure and ran for thirteen hours. Her phone, and all our phones that can do data were requested when we got them from Verizon to be data blocked. Her phone is over a year old and was purchase pre the Verizon Wireless new contract data plan requirements for PDA or smart phones. Yet here is her phone hooking up and running for thirteen hours to who knows what while it lay on her kitchen counter. The Verizon representatives said they did not know what the phone did but the charge was valid and we owed $183.64 in total for data of which 181.66 was charged to my daughters phone when she thought the phone was off. The other 1.99 of the Verizon fraudulent billing for data was charged to my wife's phone which is so old it can not do any data. They removed that their mistake, you think. My daughter's phone was off and laying on a kitchen counter and also blocked from the internet on May 2, 2010 we thought. Verizon was contacted over and over. Verizon lowered the charge to half of the $181.66 data charge. Verizon said they issued something they call a Diamond ticket to see what the phone did. Watch out for Representative Topaz at Verizon she is a crook in on this fraudulent billing scheme. They, Verizon Wireless never got back to me to tell me what the phone did, I quess Diamond ticket means buying representative Topaz a Diamond ring. Get this the very first Verizon Representative I called said my $181.66 data charge was nothing the representative from Verizon said she had just got off the phone with a customer that their cell phone ran up over a seven hundred dollar data charge in the same Verizon billing period. Oh by the way they say the fee is 1/2 cent per kilobyte downloaded or used. Ha Ha on us dumb sucker Verizon customer's is the way the representative sounded with their attitudes. Well I called them Verizon again the day before the Verizon bill was due. The IP address (184.108.40.206) given to me for the data hook up shows up only as a Verizon IP address. Oh the Diamond ticket never did give me anything Verizon never said what they found. Right form Topaz's mouth "it is a valid charge" with no answer to the Diamond ticket she issued weeks earlier, and basically you owe what ever the phone rang up too bad. So after like calling for three weeks we were held up and robbed by Verizon Wireless for a service charge of data for something that was supposed to be blocked in the first place. Verizon now assures me the cell phones are blocked for data, again liars I don't trust them one bit. If someone is out there suing Verizon for fraud count me in and call me D G Hyatt Elyria, OH 440-315-3248 or 440 323-6517. We paid our fraudulent Verizon Wireless phone bill we have superior credit and want to keep it that way. Please any lawyers out there starting a class action lawsuit on Verizon Wireless call me, or email me firstname.lastname@example.com. D Greg Hyatt.
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MDSasquatch on 06/09/2010:
have you logged into your account? Once there, you can see exactly what is happening to the phones. Something doesn't sound quite right; being connected is not the same as using "data".
Was there any downloads of ringtones or any of the other stuff they order? I had some data charges on one of my "blocked" phones too; I was able to get the charges removed because "the usage was not consistent with my history"
I wish you luck on this one.
msnanny on 06/09/2010:
Probably the very reason why they now require data packages on internet enabled devices.
rippedoffbyverizon on 06/15/2010:
the word Verizon hum latin virtical horizon hum that's not possible humm humm think Verizon means blood sucker or ripped off until you're homeless or dead. humm well now that I know what Verizon means geezzze I feel sorry for ya! I'm just the homeless one
charles on 08/16/2012:
We had a very simialr account with Verizon. We are done. They acted as if we were trying to scam them. We were charged 103.00 for a "valid download". We know we did not do this. We had been with Verizon for four years, we never had this issue with our phones. They got us for an exstra 200.00 on our wireles card while we were out of service hunting. We are done. This is an obvious scam, or Verizon is behind the curve and hackers are getting away with our money through Verizon. I feel a company this large should be concered about customer security. We would gladly give our two cents in a possible lawsuite. They need to accept there is flaws in their system.
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Beware Alltel Customers Now Owned By Verizon-Bad Experiences
Posted by
FAYETTEVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA -- I normally have a bill of about$114 each month when Alltel still owned the company. I just received a bill for $2300+ and while in there office another ladies whose over $900. Alltel customers were told by Verizon they would honor the Alltel contract plans which were far better than Verizons whose lacks the $7/month talk free after 7pm plan and requires a higher priced packages for their Friends & Family package as compared to Alltels My Circle. Well after a great deal of confusion and discussion I got them to correct the error which they say was related to their systems inability to sort out the Alltel Plan with a Verizon replacement phone for the now defunct Alltel LG scoop phone that was not working properly we had purchased full price. Well though they fixed that billing issue they still BILLED me the FULL $124 tax fron the $2300 mistake stating I would have to pay it. Then wait until the next month to get a credit for it. I told them I would not pay for their companies mistake.
To Aggravate matters the new Verizon phone will not get out here at the house when all the old Alltel phones have 4-5 bars now for about 8 years. They would not give me a phone stating it was a problem with towers in the Southport NC area and one Verizon employee told me it could take 6 months to fix but another when I asked to cancel service says he doubted it took that long that I would have to pay an early cancellation fee for $200/line.*The Verizon employee stated also the Free after 7pm Packages Alltel buyout customers are still getting could probabily end in about a year.*
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Anonymous on 08/23/2009:
If the Verizon service isn't up to par in your area, they should do the right thing and let you out of your contract. I've generally had good customer service with Verizon, but as with all companies when they start getting too big the customer service suffers. I hope things work out for you.
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VIP Customer
Posted by
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA -- This is mostly to vent. I was treated so badly by Verizon Wireless that I wanted to discontinue my account but I have family members on this network so I need to stay on it. I upgraded to a new cell phone since I'm a "VIP" customer. I admit that I didn't activate it in a timely fashion, & I didn't read the fine print on my contract which states that you only have 30 days to do so or you're charged for the full cost of the new phone. It's not an excuse but my husband suffered a stroke on 10-1-08 so I really put this activation aside for a brighter day (or month). Around mid-November I received my statement with the charges for the new phone. I immediately called Verizon to see if I could rectify the situation & have the charges credited. The representative was kind of rude but he did say that he would have to send me a manual paper contract in the US mail & I would then sign it & go into any Verizon store & they would process the contract. Once that step was done, the charges would be credited.
The representative took a long time & at the end of the call I had to remind him that I still needed to activate my new phone to avoid further problems. He admitted he had forgotten that part but he did help me activate my phone right then. I was told it would take up to 10 days to receive the contract. Well about 3 weeks went by & I received no contract so I called back. The representative said all she could do for me was sent a message to the original representative so he could rectify the problem. (?) I never heard back so I called back & I had to start all over again with another representative who said the same thing---he would have to send me a paper contract by US mail & I could take it to any Verizon store bla bla bla. He set a follow up for 10 days to call me to see if I received it.
This 3rd representative never called me back nor did I receive the contract in the mail. By this time, I had gone to the Verizon store with my daughter regarding her phone & a battery situation. Her line is also on my account. Before they could help her the representative questioned me about my bill because I had an unpaid balance. I explained the entire situation & the representative never offered another alternative, he said just to wait to receive the contract by mail & bring it back bla bla bla. My daughter was helped with her phone & we left. I called again & spoke to representative #4 & explained the story all over again & she did reinforce that she would send a new contract by US mail & she would set another follow up to make sure I received it. If not, she would talk with her supervisor as to how to proceed next, since now the December & January 09 bills had come out, still showing the unpaid balance. I also received numerous collection calls on my cell phone & collection letters in the mail.
One tiny question: how is it that Verizon can send me collection letters with no problems but cannot manage to send me my contract whatsoever? A couple of days later, my daughter called me frantically that her cell phone was turned off for non payment. I was able to call my follow up representative because I had begged her for her number & she had given it to me. I explained my service was cut off for non payment & she did help me restore it in a couple of hours. However I again stated that I'd never received the contract by mail & she said she would talk with her supervisor & would call me the next day. I asked if she could FedEx the contract & I would pay for it but she said no, the contract can only be mailed. This representative did call me the next day & she very nnonchalantly & casually said "why don't you just go to any Verizon store & sign the contract there?" WHAT? You mean all this trial & tribulation for something this simple? (And I did go the very next day & signed the contract electronically).
You mean on call #1 I could have been directed to any Verizon store, I would have gone the next day, & all of this struggle & strife would have been avoided? Not to mention 3 months worth of late fees to boot? I cannot believe it. Finally I received the new bill this week, again with the unpaid charges owing (did I forget to mention that I paid my bill in full every month minus the equipment charges since I was told they would be credited?) So I received another collection call this week but they transferred me to customer service. There I spoke with a wonderful representative who read the notes & FINALLY did credit my account & I hope & pray that this fiasco never happens again. I feel I was treated badly, while Verizon sent me a VIP card which entitles me to more frequent phone upgrades but after this experience I'm afraid to use them. Whew!
What a ride from such a large corporation! The reps aren't properly trained & I don't really blame them, it's a corporate issue. Thank you for listening.
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Simple Upgrade... Yeah, Right
Posted by
NEW JERSEY -- Very simple. I got a job that required that I have email access on my phone that allowed me to open pdf files. It was time for an upgrade anyway so I went to my Verizon Wireless store and picked out a Blackberry. Turns out that the rollerball (or whatever you call it) was faulty so I brought it back. The sales person told me that all the Blackberries were like that, meaning the rollerballs would stick, and that I should upgrade to the Palm Treo. Okay. Fine.
Got the Treo and it worked fine for a couple of weeks. Then I noticed that the screen would freeze occasionally and it would take time to start up. I let it go for a while thinking that the phone just wasn't charged enough. By the time I realized there was a real problem, my 30 days were up so I couldn't break the contract.
I brought it back to the store and the tech people saw the problem and ordered me a new phone from Palm which they said would arrive in 2 days. Phone arrived but they sent me the older model. Brought it back to the store where the manager gave me a new phone off the shelf.
Phone worked fine for a couple of weeks and then the same problem happened. Brought the phone back. After the tech tried to "fix" it, the phone ended up in a continuous loop where it kept trying to reboot and never actually turned on. New phone was ordered and I was told that it would arrive in 2 days (Wednesday) but possibly Tuesday.
I happened to be off on Tuesday and took off Wednesday. No phone. I worked on Thursday and didn't get back to the store until Friday. Told them the story. They were able to see the order in their computer system but there was no tracking number associated with it. They called to find out what was happening but was told that they couldn't give any information because only my husband's name was on the account and it was for "his security" that no info was given out. Huh? They had no problem ordering a $350 phone without him being there (TWICE!!!) but yet security wouldn't allow them to tell me where it was? Fine.
I called my husband (who was away on business) and he gave the store manager the authorization to add my name to the account. Now my name is entered so the tech calls back and was now told that even though my name is showing up at the store, it would take 24 hours for their system to show the update.
By this time I was fuming. So much so that the security guard was tailing me around the store (FYI I'm a 41 year old soccer mom. Completely harmless, but I do have a loud voice) So I leave, not very happy.
Husband comes homes from business trip that afternoon and we meet at the store. Now we're told that due to a "mishap" the phone was never ordered, but they can guarantee the phone will be delivered the next day (Saturday). No good. We're not home Saturday. I already stayed home Tuesday and Wednesday waiting for it and am not about to waste any more time. Just give me a phone off the shelf. They can't do that. They're out of stock. Don't we have a neighbor that the phone can be delivered to? No, I'm not going to inconvenience my neighbors.
After some more back and forth between my husband and the manager, a new phone miraculously appears out of thin air. The manager tells me, with a very snotty attitude, that this is a "one-time deal" and the next time I'll have to wait for the phone to be mailed, as if the whole thing was my fault. Actually, if there's a problem with this phone I can break the contract since it will be my third issue.
BTW, I can't stand the phone. Everyone else I know who has the Blackberry has absolutely no problems with it. Apparently I just seem to attract faulty phones. And I'm not even going to go into the fact that I've been paying for email service for the last couple of months that I haven't been able to use since I've been using my "backup" phone. I did get a credit for that though.
Just needed to vent.
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Alain on 04/24/2008:
You might want to compose a written letter to Verizon about this. It may not do much, but it won't reflect well on the store or it's manager. You also might (or possibly all ready are) consider not dealing with Verizon again.
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Verizon Wireless Contract Rip Off
Posted by
Verizon Victim
92203, CALIFORNIA -- I have found that contacting the PUC instead of trying to reason with Verizon saves a lot of grief and speeds up the resolution. I wish everyone would contact the PUC with their Verizon problems so that they are publicly documented. The PUC would then recognize that Verizon has a nationwide problem that needs to be corrected.
My Story: Verizon put my mother in law on an extended contract without her knowledge when she inquired about the charges on her account. As far as I can tell they put her on unlimited nights and weekends which I think she already had. If she did not have the unlimited nights and weekends the change would not have benefited her because she had 400 minutes to use each month and rarely went over 100 and never 200. The phone stopped working and they wanted to charge her for the battery. After I researched her needs, I found out that she could get another phone from another provider for less than Verizonâs battery charge without a contract and save money each month on her usage. Verizon told me that she would have to pay an early cancellation penalty of $179 if she cancelled. I filed a PUC complaint and continued to make payments. After Verizon received notification of the complaint they agreed to close the account without penalty and refund all money paid on the account since my attempt to cancel the account (total of $255.19). One month ago they put $192.76 back into her bank account and she has a $62.43 credit balance on her account. I called today to try to get the refund and come to the realization that I will have to file another complaint to get it resolved. The account is closed and has a $62.43 credit balance. You would think that Verizon would refund it without any questions.
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voiceoff on 11/29/2007:
What is the PUC, and how can they be contacted? Address? Phone? WOW I am impressed you got results. HOPE.
redsonja84 on 11/30/2007:
Public Utilities Commission. Look in your local phone book. I'm sure it's online somewhere as well. It's supposed to police the utility companies.
MacysNorth on 01/21/2008:
For six months I've waited for December to come when my contract would be over. Ever since my bill started showing $100 and I couldn't get an understandable reason for I've been counting the months of getting away from Verizon. This scheme of entrapment should be made illegal. My phone bill goes up so I ask to get it lowered but then my contact is extended because of the change in the plan. Then it happens all over again. As long as you keep making your customers need to change their plan you take advantage and extend the contract. I was never told my contact was going to extend the last time I had to change my plan. In fact I made sure it wasn't by telling the Verizon associate it better not, and she did it anyway. Now I'm stuck with them until August 2008. 1/21/2007
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Verizon Is Regret
Posted by
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS -- We are with Verizon for about 6 months now after US Cellular has moved out of Illinois.
One of our cell phone stopped working, I went to local store for help, they can't and the worst is VERIZON DON'T GIVE LOANER PHONES, and VERIZON will male you replacement phone and you will be lucky if you get replacement within a week.
I talked to customer services representative (I have her name and ID #) and asked for replacement and I understood, that my phone will reach me in 5 days by regular mail or I can expedite it by paying $7, and for sure I opted and agreed to pay $7, two days after received an email that I will receive my phone in next 5 days. I got upset and called customer service again, of course got connected to new person and after describing the whole situation, she said "VERIZON DON'T EXPEDITE LOANER PHONES" I couldn't figure out who was lying, and she kept asking me "is there anything else I could do to help me".
If you are with Verizon and something happen to your phone, you are in mess; you will be out of phone for whole week if you are lucky. And if it is your work phone just imagine like mine, I started looking for other options already. Verizon is Regret.
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Incompetence and Fraud
Posted by
LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY -- I have been a Verizon customer about 10 years, my payment was automatic debit from my account. Six months ago some idiot in their accounts department screwed up and they disconnected my service, and charged me all types of fees, I gave them a new credit card for automatic deduction, to my surprise I just got a letter from them threatening to cancel my service for non payment, so I went online and saw they had my acc info but failed to debit my now past due bill.
Is it just gross incompetence or just a bunch of jerks working there.
I am going to make sure all the members of my family and friends find another company.
To every one out there, get away from these people.
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trmn8r on 08/08/2013:
Your current issue may simply be the account information didn't get to them quickly enough for this cycle. Just a suggestion. It takes several days to cue a new recurring automatic debit request, if I recall correctly.
It doesn't sound like you have called yet about this latest snafu. Hopefully it can be quickly remedied.
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