text:
|Series :
|Deep Space Nine
|Rating :
|Disc No :
|Episode :
|First Aired :
|6 Oct 1997
|Stardate :
|Director :
|Mike Vejar
|Year :
|Writers :
|Ronald D. Moore
|Season :
|Guest Cast :
|Okay, so Sisko wants to find a way to keep all the Jem'Hadar alive. Well, why not just stun them all in the battle instead of killing them? Leave the Ketracel White that his own ship was stocked up with so that they have a new supply when they wake up. Let Starfleet know where to go to pick them up once you are away. End of problem.
|Body Count :
|Ten Jem'Hadar and at least one Defiant crewman are killed.
|Factoid :
|Paul S. Eckstein is no stranger to Trek - In Voyager he played Morak in "Prophecy", a Hirogen in "Flesh and Blood" Part 1 and 2 and "The Killing Game" Part 1 and 2, and Supervisor Yost in "Gravity". In Deep Space Nine he played a Jem'Hadar officer in "The Dogs of War".
|Quote :
|"It is not my life to give up, captain. And it never was." - Remata'Klan to Sisko
Crashed on a deserted planet, Sisko and crew find themselves facing the remnants of a Jem'Hadar group under the command of the wounded Vorta Keevan. Keevan is prepared to sell out the Dominion to ensure his own survival, but first he wants Sisko to dispose of the Jem'Hadar for him - will the Captain participate in a slaughter?
|Copyright Graham Kennedy
|Page views : 2,950
|Last updated : 24 Apr 2004


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subset: commoncrawl


text:
Nissan Wants You to Open 'The Briefcase'
Nissan's new online initiative "The Briefcase" courtesy of TBWA\Chiat\Day LA features a high octane car chase (starring the new 2014 Nissan Rogue) ending in a click through to a contest offering contestants the chance to win one of three 2014 Rogues.
The video opens with a man getting in a hired car for his usual commute home from work. When a motorcycle pulls up and hands off a briefcase to the driver, however, all hell breaks loose. Soon everyone seems to be after the Rogue, including a helicopter that attempts to land on the car. In the end, they run into a blockade and a man shouts "Open the briefcase," at which time viewers are prompted to click on a link to open it. This link clicks through to the contest on Nissan's Facebook page. It's a clever, interactive way to lead viewers to the contest, even if the video is a little over the top. Fans of the brand should enjoy having a background story going into the contest, where they can enter once per day, or more if they share information about the contest via email or social media — a pretty good way to incentivise sharing.
The contest begins today and runs through February 13th at 11:59 PM. You can enter the contest here for your chance to win a 2014 Nissan Rogue. Credits after the jump.


text:
Conversion without conversion?
Post: #46
Dear Fr. Simon,
First, a big thank you for your post - which was over-short if anything
When you cite C.S. Lewis here:
Quote:"The point is not that God will refuse you admission to His eternal world if you have not got certain qualities of character: the point is that if people have not got at least the beginnings of those qualities inside them, then no possible external conditions could make a ?Heaven? for them...?it prompted me to think that we must all have the beginnings of those qualities inside us, since we are made in the image of God; so the question becomes not one of whether we have them or not (that would be an odd offshoot of predestination, I guess!) - but how they are nurtured and strengthened in this world marred by the effects of that sin which divides us from the will of that same God who made us in His image?
Here, perhaps, there is a real difference between the various Churches. If one holds a non-sacramental view of the Eucharist, then whether one communes or not is immaterial, except as an act of memory; but if one hold to the Orthodox view, then partaking of the Eucharist is an essential part of our theosis; St. Cyril of Jerusalem rightly compares losing some of the bread to losing precious gold. So, to me, at least, baptism and chrismation, and the Eucharistic feast, are essential parts of theosis. Does this mean, as some have said to me, that I ascribe magical qualities to these things? No, simply that my own experience matches what the Church teaches; explanations have I none, nor yet need of them. The Church's teaching and my experience are one here.
So, in that sense, I do want, at the very least, others to have that experience. The analogy I would use would be of various hospitals. I am sure that that hospital over there has excellent facilities and surgeons, and it certainly looks better funded and smarter than the one I'm in; but I know where I am being healed, and can only pray that those in that very smart hospital also experience the same healing. Of course, I can't pronounce either way; but I can say to those not in a hospital that this one is helping heal me. So yes, Fr. Simon, hospital or lifeboat, we can only be humble and speak of that which we know.
So many excellent counsels to silence, and yet, at least in this forum, it is necessary that we speak, not because we have any authority, but because we have something to share - and much to learn.
In Christ,
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)
Post: #47
Dear All,
I was just thinking about this thread "Conversion without conversion" and the question behind this thread. And, a scene popped into my mind where Indiana Jones was reaching for the Holy Grail and his dad said . . . "Let it go Indy."
And, this caused me to consider the very fine line between what may be described as a 'disillusionment-pathos-apathy' on one side and a 'transcending' of it all on the other side.
As Kirk has written:
Quote:. . . the Church is one, not through names like Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, or Roman Catholic, or Anglican, but because the Body of Christ can only be One, no matter how hard we sinful humans try to pull Him apart.
Either we agree with this or we don't.
And, as he has concluded:
Quote:The perfect answer to all this nonsense is found in the lives and sayings of the Desert Fathers who understood what Christ meant when He said that His Kingdom is not of this world,
I wonder if this 'perfect answer' as it relates to the ontology of the Desert Fathers is 'the only answer' to our question. As we think of the state of being of the Desert Fathers which perfectly modeled their way of knowing, how can there be any other answer?
The Desert Fathers did not "reject" but they did "turn from." In many ways they just "Let it go" in order to find IT, His Kingdom.
I think we can run the sacramental/non-sacramental, episcopate/non-episcopate, etc., circles until we drop from exhaustion and just don't care anymore. Or, we can look to the Desert Fathers who were not interested in the rot which is rooted in the politics, again as Kirk has mentioned. But, in the End, what can we, as individuals do, other than what the individual Desert Fathers did? What can we do but to turn from in the hope of going beyond in order to find that higher 'ground', that Holy 'Ground?'
Because, it is here, at this very place, that we cannot just "Let it go," can we?
Because, if we do, then what have we become?
What is there in the end, but the end?
What is there but a kind of death, not to self, but to the very spirit of the Desert Fathers?
And, as we look around in the present day, what is left for the ones who would seek to transcend "all this nonsense" . . . what is left for the ones who know that Christ and His Kingdom are not of this world, other than the Spirit of the Desert Fathers within?
Hmmm . . . yes, conversion to what?
Pray for me the chief of sinners.
In Christ,
Post: #48
Dear Rick,
Yes, I think we must transcend confessional differences. It seems to me entirely possible to see a diversity of approaches in the Scriptures themselves; Paul's later epistles suggest less reliance on the charismatic utterances of his early ones, even as one might see in St. John's Gospel a more sacramental approach to the Body and Blood of Our Lord than, in say St. Mark. Our efforts to smooth out the diversity of practice witnessed in the early Church by homogenising it to any one of our traditions does neither justice to the reality of the past, nor of the present.
After all, there is not a single Church which does not claim Scriptural warrant for its practices and interpretations, and rather than argue with others and claim that our tradition is somehow purer than theirs, it seems altogether more edifying to leave us all with whatever tradition we belong to, or feel drawn to; God will make the only judgement about such things that can be made, and what we think is irrelevant.
I am Orthodox because for me it is in this tradition that I encounter the Risen Lord, and in which I find the healing for what ails me; if others find these things in other traditions, then I am happy for them. I am not surprised that the Desert Fathers are concerned more with the encounter with Christ than anything else.
Is that letting it go? Or is it acknowledging what is - and that what is may well have always been? Historians, like theologians, have a tendency to tidy up the past, imposing an orderliness on a 'tradition' of which contemporaries might have been totally unaware, but which our own needs may lead us to accept uncritically. The Church itself only moved when ideas were thought to be heretical, and whilst we can say that such heresies should be avoided, we might note that the later desire to define quite tightly is one part of part of the western tradition. That does not make it illegitimate fro those who live in that tradition; but it makes it unnecessary for those of us who are not part of it.
None of us can know those things which the Only Just Judge knows; we can know only what the tradition we accept teaches. That acknowledges that whatever we may argue, we all make a choice. Whichever Church makes the claim to be 'the only true Church' makes it in all sincerity; but men can be sincerely wrong; sincerity is no guarantee of anything - even if it may occasionally be a sign of censoriousness. There are none so judgemental as those who secretly doubt their own judgement; even as there are none whose doubts are so justified.
You ask:
Quote:what is left for the ones who know that Christ and His Kingdom are not of this world, other than the Spirit of the Desert Fathers within?- to which I would say what is left is the Risen Christ. Either we believe that He rose and brings with Him our salvation, or our Faith is in vain.
If we believe in Him, we take His message of repentance and amendment of life, and we seek how best to walk in His way; that, for me, is in the Orthodox Church. Those who find what I find there elsewhere, I wish the joy I receive. When, and if, we can understand the love of God that made Him sent His only-begotten Son that we should have life, then, and only then, would we be able to approach an understanding of what love means to God; and should we ever reach that point, we'd perhaps see the wisdom of leaving these things t God - and leaving to ourselves the effort of walking in His way.
In Christ,
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)
Post: #49
A Conclusion of the Conversation on Conversion?
Dear John,
I think your last post is worthy of a frame. Thank you. And, as I was reading it it occurred to me that you have included the words 'experience' and 'encounter' in some of your posts on this forum recently, as elsewhere in the past, as it relates to your experience with . . ., your encounter of . . ., your choice of faith traditions and what you have found within it since you have committed yourself to this way of life, this path. In these you have shared clearly and concisely what you have discovered, what you have understood along the way on your journey (and even some about before the journey began in terms of experience with others when you realized you were going to have to make a move a few years ago). There have been no formulas or systems presented by you. In short, you have shared with us basically what you have 'seen for yourself' and in this sense 'your living experience' of Orthodoxy Today.
And, it occurs to me that some could read what you have written and think something like:
"Well, I'm glad things worked our well for that chap, he seems happy enough . . . but, where is the value in this for me, what do these things have to do with these discussions on the BOF site about the nature of Christendom anyway? In fact, his writing seems to contain within it a very high degree of individualism that is only exceeded by the subjectivity of what is shared--the nature of Christianity aside, what does this really have to do with Orthodoxy, is this even the Orthodox Way? In fact, this method of me, myself, and I as the final authority sounds more like the Protestant Way and Protestant thinking to me than anything else ."
And, I have read things just like this in the past in another electronic discussion community. But, while I was reading your post above, I was struck by the way I could very easily break it down into bullet points and propositions with the way it flowed . . .and this reminded me of another piece that I thought I could break down in this very same way, and one that closely parallels what you are expressing above in words and through your example. I am speaking of a couple of paragraphs in a book titled "The Orthodox Way" by Bishop Ware. In Ware's book he shares that "To be a Christian is to be a traveller" and he follows this up in his Prologue with:
- "There is only one means of discovering the true nature of Christianity. We must step out upon this path, commit ourselves to this way of life, and then we shall begin to 'see for ourselves.'"
- "Certainly we need to be given directions before we start; we need to be told what signposts to look our for; and we need to have companions."
- "But, directions given by others can never convey to us what the way is actually like; they cannot be a substitute for direct personal experience."
- "Each is called to verify for himself what he has been taught, each is required to re-live the tradition he has received."
- "As a Christian of the Orthodox Church, I wish particularly to underline this need for 'living experience."'
- "For the Orthodox themselves, however, loyalty to Tradition means not primarily the acceptance of formulae or customs from past generations, but rather the ever-new, personal and direct experience of the Holy Spirit in 'the present,' here and now."
On this last point, I think this is what we are talking about in this thread. Although, it seems we have limited ourselves to 'our part' of the equation in this discussion, I think you post above offers a corrective to this, and I can say that your general conclusions, in the above, are my conclusions.
In Christ,
Post: #50
Dear Rick,
Thanks for another interesting post which pushes us along in directions we need to explore.
Uncomfortable though I am in writing about my own subjective experiences, and uncomfortably close to protestantism (for me) though it is to admit that one has made a choice, it seemed necessary to face up to both these things. After all, no one made me uncomfortable with where I was; that was something of which I had been aware for a long time. Neither was there an 'ejection' point. I could have continued to do what I had done for the best part of two decades, and what many better men and women than me still do. Indeed, and here full confessional mode is on, had it not been for encountering the British Orthodox Church, I should have done so.
There is not a Church that claims the name of Christian which cannot find in Holy Scripture some warrant for itself and its practices, and the historical record shows us a difference between the Jerusalem Church under St. James and the more charismatic early foundations of St. Paul; but these were differences the Apostles accommodated. We. alas, are inheritors of differences fossilised into confessional schism, and I have never felt an urge to insist on tribal preferences. Of course I have my views on the idea that the Eucharist can be celebrated using crackers and fruit juice; they happen to coincide with what the Orthodox Church has taught about the Eucharist; but I see no need to make my views explicit. Who am I that my views on these things matter? I am happy to stay within the Orthodox tradition whose understanding of the Eucharist has been shared by many of the Fathers and which is shared by many Christians.
Those who see the Orthodox Church as a fossilised survival of part of the ancient tradition need to do what +Kallistos recommends; experience it. The parallel with the citations from his book strike me in a way that had not occurred to me; but so many books about Orthodoxy say 'experience it'. Beforehand, I did not understand why; now I do.
In Christ,
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)
Post: #51
On ramifications of 'our views' & 'letting it go' or not
Dear John,
I would like to lift out two quotes from your last two posts:
Quote:Is that letting it go? Or is it acknowledging what is - and that what is may well have always been?
and secondly:
Quote:. . . but I see no need to make my views explicit. Who am I that my views on these things matter?
As we consider the reality of what is and what may have always been, as well as the sentiment 'who am I that my views matter,' I think I would like to push this a little farther yet.
You see, most thinking folks who have a background similar to mine, and who are still among the ranks of what we might call the American Fundamentalists and Evangelicals would consider Orthodoxy to be an example of a tradition which has an overdeveloped ecclesiology. And, to be fair, most thinking Orthodox that I have met consider the afore mentioned groups to have an underdeveloped sense of ecclesiology. In fact, when I pointed out these views to a long time Orthodox one day, over coffee, he responded by saying "how can there be an overdeveloped sense of ecclesiology in the Church?"
And, why is this John? Why did he say what he said? As you know, he said this because within Orthodoxy one's ecclesiology is one's christology. And, this matters here in reality to these two groups. And, at the risk of being accused on being on board with those who think right belief is the key to everything (as in an intellectual correctness determines whether one is a believer' or is deluded and in reality experiencing/encountering the unbelief of an 'unbeliever')' . . . I think it does matter what our views are here. And, I am open for correction here and aid in seeing this differently; but, it seems to me that there needs to be a separation of soteriology from ecclesiology.
There can never be a separation of soteriology from christology (heaven forbid!). But, is salvation to found within the church, or is it 'of' the church. Do you see what I mean here? And, I'm not sure that I have the time or focus to develop this well enough to be understood clearly, but . . .
As it relates to our views, as well as understanding correctly the words of the early church apologists and fathers, I wonder sometimes if we do have two views here that cannot be juxtaposed or if we have an example of divisions in Christ that need to be transcended?
Take the Orthodox view first, they can never ever accept a separation of soteriology and ecclesiology. I think this is why we see such a vehement response from some on other forums when anything even remotely close to this is hinted at. I think this is why there is a need on the part of some of the same ones to continually bash protestantism and continually separate themselves from protestantism. Because, for the lack of a better analogy at the present, to allow the separation of soteriology and ecclesiology in any form or fashion is to allow one to remove a card from the bottom of a house built of cards. The whole thing comes crashing down! If there is this separation, then there goes all the church polity, the episcopate/hierarchies and the sacramental views of the Orthodox Church. ***Interestingly enough the Spirit of the Desert Fathers remains unaffected by this fall, they remain fully intact . . .
But, I wonder if any of this is making any sense here John?
To take the other view (Evangelical, etc.,) while they could never accept a separation of soteriology and christology . . . there is no problem here with viewing christology on a different plane as ecclesiology and here clearly one's christology is not one's ecclesiology.
So, I hope you will forgive me if this sounds as unclear as I think it does. But, I am wondering if we are seeing two competing systems here, that cannot be juxtaposed, and at least somewhat understandably bring a foaming at the mouth on the part of those who understand this at times, or the feeling of the need of one group to evangelize the other group . . . or if these are all just words without meaning possibly in terms of the big picture?
Who doesn't want 'right' belief? Who doesn't want 'right' worship?
And, if these two approaches are one, and they are both the narrow way, then this doesn't matter. But, if these approaches are opposed to each other and one way is a part of the broad way, then our views do matter I think. So if this makes any sense, then this speaks to what I have shared in the past with such questions/statements about letting it go, or not.
In Christ,
Post: #52
Dear Rick,
What you ask here is the big question, and I can only approach it in parts, and then sideways. Whenever we get to ecclesiology I get to thinking of ecumenism, and want to try to go via it to at least the edge of the big question you ask.
It may be necessary to distinguish between types of ecumenism. That which seeks to ignore the causes of want of unity in a call for all 'to be one', proceeds by means of a lowest common denominator; but how low can that be when there are some who claim the name 'Christian' and yet deny that Christ was wholly divine as well as wholly human? Down such a road lies only further schism, since many Christians from all Churches will not go there.
The other form of ecumenism consists of exploring what it is divides us. In the case of the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox, these talks have been going on in their modern form for half a century, and whilst we are still far from united, we now all have access to a much more accurate account of what divided us, and what, of that, still does so. This is true ecumenism, for its objective is that we understand each other, not that we reach a consensus; if, as a result of a more perfect understanding, moves towards union happen, that is a happy by product - not the end of the talks.
The will of God is what will be done. For our part, we can contribute to a better climate by concentrating upon our own journey towards theosis, and upon the beam in our own eye. If, as the Orthodox believe, we have the fullness of the Faith, then the responsibility lies all the heavier on us to show that love which Christ said would mark us out as His children.
So where does this leave us when, as Orthodox, someone says 'no, this is the one true Church'? Does it leave us where the Fundies are? Does it leave us contesting that ground with the Catholics?
I am fond of the formulation one often sees in Orthodox literature, which is that whilst one can be sure where the Church is not, only God is sure where it is. It may well be that sometimes, in the sheer joy of the encounter with the Risen Christ in the Orthodox Church that we do sometimes give the impression that He is only with us; if we do that, then we fail in humility - or at the very least, in clarity of expression.
We know the Holy Ghost is with us, and we know that despite the many travails through which the Orthodox Church has passed and is passing, the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it; but that ought not to lead us into prideful attitudes; we should boast of naught save the name of Christ, and Him Crucified and Risen. To those to whom much has been given, much is expected, and there is none of us, no, not even one, who is righteous. So, if an impression of pride has been created, it is meet and right that we should say that any pride is only in Christ.
That said, the Orthodox do, of course, hold what others do in their turn, which is that the fullness of the Faith is to be found within the living Holy Tradition of the Church; but I hope we do that not in a spirit of denigrating others, but in one which simply expresses the hope that the healing which we have found, might also be found by others. And, of course, we can only be sure that that healing is found within the spiritual hospital which is the Orthodox Church. But we are not, I hope, unmindful that others may hold the same of the place where they encounter the Risen Lord.
My own personal hope is that others find what I have found in Orthodoxy; if they find that where they are, who am I to think I can set a limit to the work of the Spirit? We can know only what we experience; but we ought not to forget the same is true of others.
But that is not to subscribe to syncretism. However unfashionable it may be in parts of the Western world, there is a revealed Truth, and it is a person, the Risen Christ. Any attempt to water down to a lowest common denominator the 'faith once given', does threaten the means of salvation; that we cannot forget.
But that true ecumenism, which consists in finding what others who confess the name of Christ hold, does not seek unity as its goal, although it may, if it is God's will, find it as a consequence of straight talking - and listening to the same.
This gets us to borders of your central question - but reminds us of something which may bear on an answer to it.
In Christ,
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)
Post: #53
Re: On ramifications of 'our views' & 'letting it go' or
Dear Rick,
Reading through my last, I wonder whether I wasn't too tangential even for me? The point, I guess, is that if we believe in any sort of 'true' ecumenism, then we are acknowledging some point in talking to other Christians. If that point is to 'convert' them to our point of view, then it usually fails; but if our point is to share with them what we have both found to say of the Risen Christ, then we must, perforce, think they have something to contribute.
Which is where we come to your friend's excellent question:
Quote:"how can there be an overdeveloped sense of ecclesiology in the Church?"to which the answer is that one which excludes us from listening to others is overdeveloped!
I wonder about the equation of Christology with Ecclesiology, simply because I wonder whether I understand enough of what the Catholics and the various types of Protestants hold about Christology to substantiate such a view? Indeed, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox parted company many years ago on a Christological issue - and yet I see OO people freely citing +Kallistos' book as an introduction to something called Orthodoxy - and some EOs advising people only to use the early editions, because they dislike the more eirenic tone of the more recent ones.
Right belief is what we hold we have; but none of the other Churches lay claim to 'wrong belief', and we have all hurled anathemata at each other in the firm belief that the other lot are wrong.
On soteriology and Christology, on the other hand, there can be no doubt.
Quote:But, is salvation to found within the church, or is it 'of' the churchis the question. We can know only what we know. What do we mean when we say we know the Holy Spirit is in our Church? If all we mean is an intellectual conviction, then we run the risk of holding to an intellectual construct, not the person of the Risen Christ - even as, if all we have is a 'feeling', we run the risk of believing in nothing more than our own emotions. I'm not sure that I am necessarily arguing for some construct called a 'balanced view', but I am sure we need to hold what we hold both intellectually and emotionally. But, and here is where some may part company with me, in the end we are making a choice.
Few of us were born into Orthodoxy, and we all make a choice about remaining in it. In my own case I am keenly aware (partly because I have two good friends who remind me of it) that the Orthodoxy into which I have been received is not that of the Russian and Greek Traditions; and if I needed any reminding, I only have to think that in order to post on that other forum where you and I met, I would have to submit to having myself called a 'guest from another religious tradition'; since I prefer to do without the bell and cries of 'unclean, unclean', I refrain from posting there, since to do so would be to submit to a label which I reject. I occasionally post on a Catholic forum, which is quite happy to welcome me as an Orthodox Christian from a sister Church which is not in communion with Rome.
When Orthodox lose the urge to bash each other, they may also begin to lose the urge to bash Protestants, Catholics and anyone else; examples of Christ bashing people seem few and far between. If we are called to walk in His way, I am happy to bash no one. I do wonder, at times, whether this urge is linked with a deep sense of defensiveness?
But what is there to be defensive about? If Russians want to link their Church with their sense of national superiority, they're welcome to it; just leave me out. It makes as much sense as those Victorian protestants who linked God with the expansion of the British Empire. One of the few lessons history may teach is the wisdom of Our Lord's comments about rendering unto Caesar those things which are his - but distinguishing these from the things we give to God.
The BOC, like the Copts and the Syriac Orthodox, do not have a relationship which involves their being a state Church; and I am glad of it.
For the rest, well, coming back to the Scriptures, we can see a variety of approaches in the early Church; we derive from a tradition we trace back to the beginning. I am happy with that. If others make similar claims, well, I'd be more convinced if I thought their arguments convincing - but that's a truism.
And I do come back to the personal here. Yes, I am intellectually convinced by the claims of the BOC - but in the encounter with Christ at the Eucharist, I am convinced in a way that transcends my intellectual and other limitations; that is the transcendence I think I look for elsewhere.
In Christ,
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)
Post: #54
Salvation and unity Together
Dear John,
Tangential? I think not. I think you have moved us beyond the border(s) here in a most helpful and pleasing way as it relates to conversion/salvation. Hopefully, I can remain at least on the ragged edge/border of sanity as I work my way into this, as I have more than a few times in the past.
How can we not speak of unity and salvation together? Because, and hopefully, we can all agree that it is not unity which brings Salvation; but it is Salvation that brings unity.
And, this thread seems to revert to a very personal, and sometimes passionate, expression by the contributors at times. But, really how can it not for the ones who are engaged in what is being discussed. I think by means of this thread, I have actually realized for the first time that I have converted to a 'True' Christian ecumenism (as you have used this) which seemed to coincide with my move to Eastern Orthodoxy. So how appropriate this thread title is for me personally. I did not convert to Christianity when I went through catechism class and then took communion for the first time or received chrismation on Pascha two years ago. I was already a convert to Christ. I had already found experience/encounter and the koinonia of the Holy Spirit--the Holy Spirit of Christ. In my mind, based on the 'brochures' for Orthodoxy, what I converted to was an historic orthodox Christian approach/way, and in this sense the most 'True' manifestation of the Eucharistic Community. My conversion was to what I perceived to be the Orthodox Way which is what I perceive to be what you are describing as a 'True' ecumenicalism.
So for me, with the hope that this post is more clear than mud, You have moved beyond the borders of "The Big Question" and are pretty close to center here with your linking of conversion and unity, or if you will, salvation and a 'True' ecumenism. And, as we consider this very center as well as the "beginning".as you have referenced it above in your past three posts, the words of another of my favorite writing theologians comes to mind:
See? So what is this? I would like to suggest that this is a mood, this is an attitude but one much more than a way of knowing characterized by such things as doctrinal beliefs as understood by a mere intellect, or such a thing as what is commonly understood as one's world view.
I would like to suggest that what we are seeing in such as Moltmann, or whoever you want to add into this IS a manifestation of what I have come to know as a noetic consciousness. In other words, IT refers to an "inner knowing, a kind of intuitive consciousness ? direct and immediate access to knowledge beyond what is available to our normal senses and the power of reason." On its base level, we are talking about an inner kingdom here which is not limited to the Christian. But, as it relates to the Christian, and the mood or the attitude on display by those such as Moltmann, possibly we see new meaning in our consideration of such as what you have concluded above:
And, I would ask at this point, as this way of knowing, this epistemology, is manifested by a Christian in terms of his/her state of being, his/her ontology . . . what in the world could we possibly be talking about here other than the 'nous' which is taught at length as being critical to our perception, to our understanding, to anything remotely resembling a relational ontology as we consider the Christ and the Holy Trinity?/!!
How could any hope to have a snowball's chance in hell at avoiding the plague in the polis, which is to say living as a walking civil war as those who "secretly doubt their own judgement" and cannot not live a life of disharmony as their method characterized by RealPolitik and love of power completely overwhelms any hope of operating by the power of Love. Yes, Eros and Agape!
These are the two "choices" as I see them John. There is a "True" ecumenism which I see as the Orthodox Way, the one I 'converted' to, and opposed to this are divisions and enmities which find at their heart at best fear and power politics. One of these is more open and the other more closed.
As we consider the outstretched arms of the suffering God on the cross, as we consider the mood(s) represented above, the "choice" seems blindingly clear to me. But, I guess in the End, it comes down to our individual ways of knowing. And, we all have different events and circumstances that have molded and shaped how we know, and in turn our theory of being . . . but if we agree that it is not unity that brings salvation, but salvation that brings unity, and it is a noetic consciousness that is necessary to 'discover' ourselves and 'recognize' each other as "brothers and sisters who are hungry and in the same poverty" . . . then somewhat as I have asked before, where does this leave us?
There must be dialogue/interpersonal communication, but there can be no dialogue/interpersonal communication lest there is a manifestation of the Word of God in the conversation. And, the Word of God reveals Himself when and where he "chooses." I think this might be IT John. Either there is a mutual embrace, a mutual recognition, a mutual apprehension all the way round, or there is not. And, in this sense where does this leave us . . . but with a theology of hope for ourselves, and each other. Think about this please. On this where is the room for second guessing and doubt? On this, where is there room for judgementalism? What do any have that was not given?
And, for that matter as it relates to "The Big Question" . . . I think there may be a kind of sweet irony at play there too. Because to even ask this question is to bring about a dialogue which in many ways does away with all artificial ecclesiologies and division which at the least makes the way straight for a pointing to Salvation and unity together.
In Christ,
"In the End, the Beginning"
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Other Ingredients:
Microcystalline cellulose, vegetable stearine, Enzymax (bromelain, papain, lipase, amylase, protease), magnesium silicate and vegetable protein.
Food Sensitivity:
Vegetarian hypoallergenic and certified kosher. This product contains no animal products, wheat, corn, salt, sugar, milk, yeast, artificial preservatives, flavors or colorings.
Store tightly closed in a cool, dry place. Keep out of reach of children.


text: The best of a handful of albums that the one-time Prince bassist put out in the early 80s – a record that made a splash via the great Prince-penned "The Dance Electric" – possibly a blessing and a curse for AC, as Prince was so huge at the time that the record going public was too quick to dismiss him as a clone! But don't let that stop you – as Cymone's got a groove that's all his own – and an 80s soul star definitely worth rediscovering. The percussive vibe is similar to Prince, but Andre's got a leaner, funkier style overall – virtually working as a one man band here, and handling most instrumentation himself – which brings a compact feel to the record that really comes through in the tightness of the grooves. Titles include "The Dance Electric", "Lipstick Lover", "Pretty Wild Lover", "Book Of Love", "Vacation", "Satisfaction", and "Neon Pussycat". This Big Break remastered edition has 5 bonus tracks: "Fallin' Fallin", "Red Light", "The Dance Electric (Single Version)", "Lipstick Lover (12" Club Version)" and "Satisfaction (12" Club Version)". © 1996-2014, Dusty Groove, Inc.


text:
9 Beauty Resolutions You Should Make
Simple steps to look and feel (even more!) gorgeous in the new year
By Carol Kim
Remove makeup and wash your face before bed.
It is extremely important to cleanse your face before going to sleep. Although nothing catastrophic will happen overnight, skipping this step prevents your skin from functioning optimally and can accelerate aging over time.
Debris from sebum (an oily, waxy substance that skin naturally produces during the day), makeup, and environmental pollutants build up during the day. By nightfall, the concealer you applied in the morning may even trap skin-damaging free radicals. "You want to wash that off and have your skin properly renew and repair itself at night," says Graf. Even if you're exhausted, reach for a face wipe and remove impurities.


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Unreal Behavior by Employees
Posted by
LANTANA, FLORIDA -- One day I looked online at the acehardware.com site for a pipe repair/wrap and located none. Within the hour I went to my local Ace Hardware store and bought some Ace weld/putty. When I opened it to use it was so hard on the ends it was obvious the product was very old, and had been on the shelf an extremely long time.. I took it back right then and asked if they had anything newer in the back. I had the product and the wrapper from when I had just bought it minutes before..someone named Barry came up and started telling me I was "yelling" which is not true. I told him I am half-deaf so my voice may carry but I used no vulgarities, etc, just address the issue of the putty and check in the back if they hav any fresher product. He said no they didn't hav any. I said you might want to pull the stuff off the shelves then because it is old. He got mad at me and started making agitating comments every time I said something he would cut me off mid-sentence on purpose. I told him that was unprofessional and I left. Barry then came to the exit door and SCREAMED AT ME ACROSS THE PARKING LOT ABOUT HOW I SHOULDN'T COME BACK. HE DID THIS IN FRONT OF THE OTHER EMPLOYEES AND CUSTOMERS ALIKE. I went back to the door and asked him what he said. He then added "Denise said you're not supposed to be here, but we let you come back anyway". I said this is the first I hav heard of this, ever. Barry proceeded to say other things loudly and still in front of the employees and customers and as I went to get my $65 pair of glasses, he walked towards me aggressively advancing on me. He then locked the door on me, telling me to leave. I only went back to hear what he had screamed at me across the parking lot, and I was aghast. THIS IS THE FIRST I HAV EVER HEARD OF ANYTHING LIKE THIS. I HAV BEEN GOING TO JERRY AND DENISES STORE FOR OVER A DECADE. WE HAV SPENT THOUSANDS THERE, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE FIRST CAME TO THIS AREA, ON OUR HOUSE REPAIRS. I HAV NEVER BEEN TOLD, ADVISED OR EVEN ALLUDED TO THAT I EVER WAS ANYTHING BUT WELCOMED AT THIS STORE? NO ONE HAS EVER TREATED ME IN SUCH A MANNER THERE. The only problem is that I would get the rewards cards and would be disappointed because every time was told they were "expired" so couldn't use them. I hav taken a few things back over the years but overall hav patronized this store along with my husband who goes there too. WHY DID BARRY SAY THIS and especially IN THIS REPREHENSIBLE MANNER TO ME?
All of this over a $5 tube of plumbers weld/putty.
I want my glasses back or reimbursement for them. This is unreal.
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Venice09 on 10/29/2011:
What happened to your glasses?
NutterButter on 10/29/2011:
Venice, she left them inside and he locked her out of the store. There's also much more to this we haven't heard.
Venice09 on 10/29/2011:
Oh.. haha
I thought maybe Barry took them or they broke during this ordeal.
madconsumer on 10/29/2011:
OMG!! what an ordeal. there was no reason the employee needed to treat you this way. try contacting the ace corp and see if they can facilitate getting your glasses back or paying for new ones. let alone addressing this issue of the employee.
trmn8r on 10/29/2011:
There must be more to this employee's behavior. Pointing out that a product has exceeded its shelf life wouldn't normally result in an employee going all Francis Farmer.
At Your Service on 10/29/2011:
As someone else alluded to, I'm sure there's another side to this story. There would be no reason for them to keep your glasses. Assuming they actually do have them, I'm sure they'd be willing to return them. It may seem a little uncomfortable, under the circumstances, but I'd initiate a phone call.
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Poor Service, Poor Management Follow-up
Posted by
HUMBLE, TEXAS -- Update 5/27/09: I'm grateful that when the manager was ultimately informed of the situation (apparently he was not informed as the worker indicated he would be), he took time to understand the situation, and quickly rectified it. Got a new carb and the blower starts fine now. He addition, he went above and beyond by tuning up my Stihl saw for free. My faith has been restored! Thanks.
What a disappointment, have lost my faith in both the service and the management of this Stihl dealership. My recommendation is not to use this Ace Hardware store for Stihl product repairs/service.
The lack of skill and customer care by the tech and lack of follow-up by management indicates this dealership should not carry the Stihl logo.
1/31/09 brought my 7 year old BG 85 to Ace Hardware in Humble TX because it was hard to start (usually starts on 2 pulls). Tech explained it could be the carb and rather than a cleaner kit, best thing to do is replace the carb for $50 plus labor. But he'd check it out and let me know. No call, other than to say that the blower was ready to be picked up. I picked up the blower after new air + fuel filter, new plug, carb adjustment made, no replacement carb needed. Great for $42 + tx. Used it once - was hard to start, could never get it started after that. 4/10/09 Returned blower to Ace. $32 + tx later after plug and fuel filter replaced. Tried 3 times could never get the blower started. 5/5/09 returned blower to Ace. Tech could not get it started until he made some adjustments (so how was I supposed to get it started?) He'll have it checked and fixed in 2 days, told him Saturday 5/9 would be fine since I wouldn't need it before then. Went to pick up blower on Sat, tech had not even started working on the blower at all (no call to let me know this in advance), lots of apologies for the bad service, he'd make it up to me. Expected a call Monday or Tuesday to indicate blower was fixed (seems like a responsible way to make up for poor service). No call by Friday 5/15, so I called manager. None was avail to speak to me. However the person I talked (seemed like the person in charge) assured me that both the tech and a manager would call me Saturday 5/16. Also he indicated that the blower was on the "bench" (Meaning that the tech had not even looked at the blower after all the apologies). No call from either during the week. At 4 PM Sat (too late to use the blower) tech called to indicate the carburetor needed to be replaced. Part may be in by Tuesday 5/12, he'll call when it's ready. Still no call from the manager.
Basically I'm out $74 + tx, lots of wasted time, and a blower that's been out of service for 4 months. Root cause of the technical problem was carb needed to be replaced. That's what should have been fixed the first time. Root cause of the service problem: a tech that has difficulty diagnosing technical problems, but worse, who doesn't contact customers, who is insincere, and who apparently does not care to follow up or make amends when problems occur.
Frankly - this dealership does a dis-service to Stihl's reputation.
Issue has not been resolved because management has not had the courtesy to follow-up up on their commitments.
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coreyd on 05/24/2009:
I find this store and the employee's are right on time and go above and beyond to help me no matter the problem.
Gibby on 02/20/2013:
The employees in this store are rude and unhelpful. Take your business elsewhere.
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Horrible, the Worst Place.
Posted by
SYRACUSE, NEW YORK -- I beg you not to shop here for the sake of saving a huge headache. This place wants to call there self Ace hardware but when it comes to returns forget about it. Must take items back to exact location what a joke. Unfortunately I was traveling at the time of my purchase. The customer service what a joke. I guess what I'm really saying is I prey all ace hardware get bull dozed and Lowes builds on there lot. A place with no customer service is a short lived thing. Please do not shop at ace hardware thank you.
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Worst Behavior by Store Manager
Posted by
HERNANDO -- I went to the Ace Hardware on Florida Ave., Inverness Florida to return an item and look for a screw fitting. I was verbally abused by the store manager because I was unable to give him the answers he wanted. He became very angry and eventually threatened with body language and order me out of his store. To me it was bodily threatening behavior. Ace Corporate Office apologized for his behavior gave me a $25 gift card and said they could take no action against the store. Since that event I have heard many other golfing buddies complain about this store.
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fmanher on 01/04/2014:
After that event I filed a police report with the Citrus County Police alleging that the manager's actions constituted a bodily harm threat and the Police took my complaint. To be followed
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Rude and Useless Employees
Posted by
GREEN COVE SPRINGS, FLORIDA -- Rown & Cartwright ACE Hardware in Green Cove Springs, FL is an ABSOLUTE DISGRACE to the company name, and the community! I have been a customer of ACE Hardware throughout the country. Everywhere else, it has been a pleasure...until I moved to Green Cove Springs! In the over 6 years I have shopped at this store, I can say without hesitation, that I have NEVER encountered an employee there that was friendly, or any help at all! Every last one of them is RUDE and USELESS! I gave up on getting help finding what I need there years ago, and just find it myself...but not without being followed like a hawk around the store my entire visit! This went on for years, and I put up with it until my most recent visit.
An employee actually confronted us outside the store stating "We know what you're up to" and "Someone in the store overheard you saying you were being watched and that you'll pay for it if you have to". This was just an ABSOLUTE LIE! She then went on to say "We can sell to whoever we want, and you're not welcome here". Can you believe she told us we need to make a "list" of what we need, get it, and get out? Unbelievable!
I immediately filed a complaint with the corporate office, and invite anyone else (I am sure there are many) with an experience like this to do the same!
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clutzycook on 09/30/2013:
I think you should just find a different place to shop. With customer service like that, you're better off going to Home Depot.
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Terrible Return Policy
Posted by
BATAVIA, ILLINOIS -- I recently purchased some items in Denver when I was visiting my daughter. She didn't have enough money to cover the purchase, so I paid for it. Returning to Chicago, I brought along the items that she didn't need or could use. I returned the items to a store in Batavia, IL and discovered that even though the merchandise was exactly the same, with the same Stock #/SKN, I got a lower return price (and not due to different tax) because the Store in Batavia sold it at a different price.
I was told by the cashier that my choices were: keep the items or go back to Denver to get my money back. She was very rude/condescending to me. No where could I see notices/signs (or even on the receipt) that each store was independent and be fore-warned that I may not get my complete money back if I had to return something. This is not the policy at other home improvement stores, such as Home Depot or Lowes.
I called their Customer Service phone#, and recounted my story. Then I was put on hold. Eventually, the line was disconnected, waiting for someone to come back on the line.
So, goodbye Ace Hardware, you have lost all my future business, as well as my family and friends, whom I plan on sharing my experience with asap. I will go out of my way to avoid shopping at any Ace Hardware store in any city.
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Obsfucation on 10/27/2010:
It seems totally reasonable to me. They can't sell them in IL for the price you bought them for in another state. Why should the IL store take a loss?
Ytropious on 10/27/2010:
The thing is, it's not very often that merchandise from a different REGION gets brought into a store. It's the reason you have to put in your zip code before viewing a store's Sunday ad online. Different regions have different prices for a variety of reasons. I mean was the price difference THAT much? I can't imagine it being a huge difference. Also I don't mean to be a buzzkill OP, but just because you tell your family and friends not to shop there doesn't mean they will listen. People are free to make their own judgments.
trmn8r on 10/27/2010:
The policy makes sense to me. They can't give you more for it, because in their store it isn't worth as much.
If they gave you the amount you originally spent for it, when they eventually sell that item they will lose money out of their usual profit.
SteveWiginowski on 10/27/2010:
If the store is independently run, then it makes sense that they wouldn't refund you the full amount. If the store isn't though, then they should have refunded it to you, since you had the receipt and the overall net effect to the Ace Hardware corporation would have been 0.
This is one of the reasons why receipts are such a huge deal in general. If someone did the opposite, purchased the item in IL and returned it to CO without a receipt, they could have made money.
bcd on 10/27/2010:
Merchants resell merchandise at a price above their purchase price to make a profit. When a merchant resells merchandise at their purchase price they do not make a profit and actually take a [minimal] loss due to overhead costs. They also lose the profit they would have made by not selling other in-stock merchandise instead of the items they bought back from a customer. If the merchant buys the merchandise at a price higher than what they sell it for, their loss is even greater.
Ace Hardware was more than reasonable in this transaction.
Venice09 on 10/27/2010:
Agreed, Steve.
werelucky on 10/28/2010:
I love going to my local, independent, ACE Hardware store. Always great customer service even if I'm buying a .10 washer. You should be complementing this store for taking your items back. The bottom line is that it is costing this other owner money to take your item back. There are plenty of other franchises out there that are independently owned that don't print it on the receipt. It's your responsibility to know that. It doesn't sound like you were much of an ACE customer anyway so I doubt that they'll miss your business.
Jonothan on 10/28/2010:
Most of the comments to my original post missed the point (or maybe I should have highlighted it more). The amount of money wasn't the issue, as much as the tone of the response as well as the reason I got. The cashier made me feel like it was my fault that I didn't know each store was run independently, consequently any returns will be at each store's discretion. Like I said before, this was new information. Also, her rude response: "your otion to keep it or return it to Denver" is not excellent customer service. I would have rather she said: "I understand your frustration about our policy and apologize that our stores don't clearly make this policy know during shopping or check-out; also I will let our Management know about your feelings". Since I do a fair amount of purchasing at home improvement stores, as well as my friends who are remodelers and builders, I will make sure they all know about this policy (but more importantly, the rude manner in which the cashier treated me).
yoke on 10/28/2010:
When you bought the items did you ask if you could return them to another store in another state? I can't see the cashiers having to tell every customer that they are independently run.
I don't see how the cashier saying you can either keep the item or return the item in Denver was rude? The cashier was telling you what you had to do. Sounds like because you were told options you did not like the cashier was rude.
Why not send the items back to Denver and have your daughter return them and send you the money.
Nohandle on 10/28/2010:
I'm confused here Jonothan. You stated: I got a lower return price (and not due to different tax) because the Store in Batavia sold it at a different price. Did the cashier agree to a refund even though it was not purchased at that particular store and not at the purchased price? What conversation transpired after that up to the point of you being told to either keep the items or return them to the Denver location? Sincere question.
Anonymous on 10/28/2010:
I disagree with most of you on this one. Almost all stores accept returns to other stores. If the OP had her receipt, then she should have gotten her full money back that she paid. Regardless of what that store is selling it at, the customer PAID the higher amount. ACE already has her money for the purchase. Why should ACE get to keep a portion of what she paid for the item? It only seems reasonable to me that she gets her full refund back. Its not the customer's fault that ACE has a lower price for hte item at the other store. If stores want to be this nitpicky, then they need to just have a policy that does not allow returns period. Of course they would never create that policy because they would lose too much business.
Ytropious on 10/28/2010:
It's because at most stores, they are not independently run. Think of it like a franchise. The franchises at the airport have to jack their prices up because of the high cost of renting the space. Should someone who bought at a franchise in the airport be allowed to return to a store that doesn't charge that high of a price? ESPECIALLY if it's a franchise or independently run and the money isn't going straight into one giant pot for the company? That is the issue here.
OP I also don't think the cashier was trying to be rude. I'd like to hear exactly how you sounded to her. Probably frustrated and upset. Canned spiels like you wanted are nice, but I think the reason you are really interpreting her as rude is because she did not want to do your return.
yoke on 10/28/2010:
Agree YT. I know the Ace's in my area are all owned independently. I doubt the cashier was rude, just because the cashier could not do as the OP wanted does not mean she was rude.
Ytropious on 10/28/2010:
So are mine. I mean don't they make a point of putting the "locally owned and operated" front and center? That's like their big claim to fame.
Anonymous on 10/28/2010:
Well I never knew they were locally owned and operated. I've never been a fan of ace to begin with. Just another reason to not shop there, I'm my books.
Jonothan on 10/29/2010:
This is the first time I used "my3cents" and the opposing comments I received were interesting, to say the least.
My reason for writing about ACE's policy was to give you all notice about my experience. Why do so many people have to write about their "wonderful" experience at ACE? Do you really think I would change my attitude about the bad service I received, because someone else has had good service? Come on, be serious.
To re-cap, ACE didn't want to refund the actual cost of the items, not because they are independent, but because of the profit hit they would take. You should know that the price I paid for my items, is not the same cost for the Store Owner. In there is the profit, SG&A, etc.
In my situation, what would constitute "great customer service" in my mind would have been to refund the amount I paid, and absorb the few cents of profit hit. That would demonstrate to me, that ACE really was interested in being the "helpful hardware store" not the "we are about the profits" store!
I also find it strange that various persons posting to me, think I should be happy about getting a refund at all, like "find something I like about the situation".
So when I called Corporate number, I gave them all the details about the Batavia store experience and my telephone number, so I could find something I like. Then I was put on hold and eventually disconnected. I would have hoped that someone from Corporate would want to discuss this with me. I have not heard one word back from them. That's why I searched for a forum to explain my dissatisfaction.
With many HI stores out there, including the big boxes like Home Depot and Lowes, consumers have options to shop at other places. Again, I have not heard any opposing comments that had true helpful advice, that would allow me to change my opinion of shopping again at ACE. So, please save your time and efforts from replying, because most of you frankly sound like ACE Store Owners or their wives.
Anonymous on 10/29/2010:
Jonothan, I have no interest in getting you to change your mind about Ace. I appreciate you sharing your story here, regardless of the experience.
Nohandle on 10/29/2010:
I believe Ace Hardware works much the same as, for an example, an IGA grocery store. They are independently owned but belong to what amounts to a buying group. They pay a fee to be a member and then their individual store purchase prices depend on volume purchased. This might very well account for the difference in the price offered you for a return vs what you paid in another area.
We are glad you are a new member and welcome aboard.
yoke on 10/29/2010:
With the economy the way it is why should a small hardware store have to take a hit because the OP? ACE is not like HS or Lowes. Why can't the OP send the item back to his daughter and have her return the item and send the refund? It may cost the OP money, but that is exactly what he is expecting ACE to do, take a loss.
Ytropious on 10/29/2010:
Why should their profit take a hit? If you ran a business would you be fine losing profit? Companies are in business for one reason and one reason only. TO MAKE A PROFIT.
Jonothan on 10/29/2010:
I found the ACE Return Policy on their website. This is the only printed return policy I could find anywhere on their site. Read it and tell me where I should know (or even suspect) that returning my purchase to a different ACE store, could result in a different money back amount. Interestingly, it even states that if I follow all directons, I am assured of "full credit" which in my situation, I assume means "full cash" back, not partial cash back.
30-Day Return Guarantee
We want you to be fully satisfied with every item that you purchase from www.acehardware.com. If you are not satisfied with an item that you have purchased (excluding Gift Cards), you may return the item up to thirty days after the original purchase date. We recommend that you make returns of online purchases to an Ace retail store near you for in store credit, minus the shipping, handling or other charges. If you do not have an Ace retail store near you, please contact a Customer Service Specialist by calling 1-866-290-5334 for complete return instructions. Please refer to our Return Instructions for more information about returning a purchase.
The item must be returned in good condition, in original boxes (whenever possible), and with all paperwork, parts and accessories to insure full credit. After 30 days, please contact the manufacturer directly.
yoke on 10/29/2010:
Problem is you did not order from Ace.com you bought from another store and they are not obligated to return items from other stores.
Venice09 on 10/29/2010:
Jonothan, yoke is right. That return policy is for purchases made online.
Although this refers to a different location, here's an example that might help you understand how independently owned stores handle returns from other stores or online:
~We recommend that you make returns of purchases from Seaboard ACE Hardware only to Seaboard ACE Hardware for in store credit, minus any shipping, handling or other charges that may have been applied at the time of purchase. Because Seaboard ACE Hardware is an independently owned and operated retail store, we do not accept returns of non-stocked merchandise purchased at any other ACE Hardware store. Items purchased online from www.acehardware.com must be returned to ACE Hardware Corporation for proper credit. Seaboard ACE Hardware is not responsible for items not purchased at this store.
The Batavia store may have a similar policy. If that's the case, you are lucky they took the merchandise back. I know it's disappointing but sometimes returning things to a different location is risky.
D Weis on 09/02/2013:
I just discovered the hard way that ace stores are independently owned and most if not all will not take back products purchased at another store. We are talking about an ace brand hose for a clothes washer.....not some regional specialty item. Sad to say this lack of cohesion between the stores will cut them out of my future purchases. HD is only one mile further away.....
Ron on 01/01/2014:
I agree with the original poster, but unfortunately for him, he is dealing with ACE's independent owners. Even the "online" return policy sucks - not sure if anybody realized it was store-credit only.
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Don't Shop There!!!
Posted by
ISLAND PARK NY,11531, NEW YORK -- While shopping in Ace Hardware in Island Park, NY 11531, I could not believe what I saw... The Store Manager (I believe his name is John), told a employee's mother " Only pay for the little things you have in your cart, the mirror (it was along door mirror)is on me". I was shocked!!
I guess Ace is the Helpful place, yea they help you walk out with free stuff!!! Then I went back to the same Ace Hardware on Sat Nov 15, 2008 (it was the 20% off bag sale and I wanted to start my Christmas shopping) and I saw an employee being lead out of the store by another store manager named Andy and he's yelling at her" Get of the store, you have to leave, get out now, you must leave now!!"
I couldn't believe what I was seeing!! The employee was saying I need to get my handbag and this Andy guy just keept yelling at her "you must leave now". While all this was going on the other store manager John was doing a dance down the main isle singing "another one bites the dust, another one bites the dust", He then stopped at the paint conter and was talking to another young associate saying "now if I can only figure out how to get rid of theresa". I couldn't listen anymore this john person is so rude, This wasn't the frist time that I heard him yelling at the associates, He's nasty, he uses profanity on the floor, I was so upset not only for me but for the female employee, I left my items and walked out of the store and went to Another Ace in Rockville Centre NY the people at that store were great, Helpful, funny and very, very knowledgeable. The store manager a young guy named John was more than eager to help every customer who walked into the store, even though the store was busy (being the bag sale and all), all the employee's very very upbeat everyone says hello (which is something that you never hear in Island Park),it was a pleasure to shop there. I will never go back to the Ace Hardware in, Island Park, NY and I will be writing a letter to Ace Corp. in I'll.
I want to find out who owns this store and tell them just what I think of their store Managers!!. I hope that they remember the old saying " A bad story travels faster than a good story". I will be telling my friends not to shop there!!
Thank You
Jill Reinheart
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Ponie on 11/16/2008:
I won't go to that store either.
TGT101 on 11/16/2008:
Yeah...I need to hear the other side to believe this.
Crown Jules on 11/17/2008:
I just love it when people like the OP pass judgment on situations when they probably don't know the whole story. In the first instance, I doubt the manager was letting anybody get away with any "free stuff". How do you know the mirror wasn't an exchange for a previously purchased defective item? In the second case, how do you know the female employee hadn't just been caught stealing or abusing a customer or co-worker? Unless you were there to see what brought on both of those instances, you have no right to decide what is or isn't fair.
Jingles0224 on 11/17/2008:
I was there to see the whole thing and I've been there to see more, this was only a few things that go on there. The mirror wasn't an exchange, if it was why did the manager say the mirror was "on him".
Principissa on 11/17/2008:
Is it possible that the person in question exchanged a defective mirror BEFORE you got to the store? I don't see a manager willingly handing over free merchandise without a valid reason.
For the girl who was asked to leave, the reasons for her dismissal are between her and the companies HR department. She could have been abusive towards a customer or employee, she could have tried to steal, there are many reasons why a person would be asked to leave a place of business in that manner. And none of them are anyone else's business.
Yes the manager should have behaved himself better, I will give you that. And he should not have said that to the other employee.
However, a lot of this post is pure speculation with no hard evidence to substantiate any of the claims. All it is is hearsay.
yoke on 11/17/2008:
How do you know it was an emloyees mother?
stop the bs on 02/03/2009:
You weren't there you just got FIRED! Y
stop the bs on 02/03/2009:
You weren't there you just got FIRED! You lie about everything.Just because you had many absentes,text someone saying that someone is going down you dug your hole.As for John at rvc he got fired from island park.So we know who this and why you need to be the center of attention.
JustBob on 02/03/2009:
I completely *disagree* with "jingles" review. Obviously, the person who wrote this review must have some grudge against somebody in this store. As someone wrote above, how could he know an employee's mother unless he worked there himself? It reads exactly like a 'poison pen' letter from someone out of touch with reality- either he is one of those employees he mentioned getting fired, or maybe the owner of a competing hardware store. I drive out of my way to shop at the Ace in Island Park because the employees are so friendly and knowledgeable. They even have someone who "floats" through the store, *offering* help before we even have to ask. The only time I've seen the employees carry anything out was to help a customer to their car. The shelves are almost always well-stocked- even on 'sale' items. If this competitor or disgruntled former employee really saw the things he claimed, he should have called the cops, not just grumble from the shadows. It also sounds like he knows way too much about this store to just be someone off the street!
True, in the years I've shopped there, I've seen one or two employees who were not as good as most. However, these few 'bad seeds' didn't seem to last long. I guess that's the kind of dead weight the writer talks about being fired. I see that as a sign of GOOD management, not the crazy, thieving people this 'reviewer' describes.
BTW, the reviewer put his location as Island Park, 11531. I live in the area and that is NOT the zip code for Island Park, or anyplace near here.
Jingles0224 on 02/05/2009:
I find it sad that after almost 4 months of my posting, I am getting negative response from Ace Island Park Employees. The way I can tell it's an employee the comment from " Stop th BS", reads just like an employee. I was writing about my experence while shopping at that store on that day. What I saw was how unprofessional the managent was acting! As for saying that I made threats against someone in that building, I will be taking this up with Ace Corp. Also about the employees in the Rockville Centre Ace store, I don't know if they worked in other Ace stores or not, What I do know is that they are professional, Friendly and very knowledgeable.
JustBob on 02/10/2009:
Jill- Sorry I didn't notice your first name the last time I posted here, and assumed you were a "he." That said, I had a shopping day today and went to Walgreens in Long Beach, then back up to the Ace and Staples in Island Park. We were helped by amazingly pleasant, cooperative employees in each store. I mentioned to my friend how pleasant everyone was, especially since there was a full moon last night. We who work with the public know that stuff about the moon is true! So, I thought I'd check back to see if any other "real" customers had responded to this thread, but there were none. Sorry again Jill, but after dozens of visits to that Ace I still haven't seen the blatant abuse or monsters running around the store like you did. I actually find it pretty sad that you proudly said "after 4 months of posting..." OMG, is this a daily hobby for you? You've also been saying for 4 months you were **"going to contact Ace headquarters"**, but you still haven't gotten around to it??? Sorry Jill, but I think this story's gotten old. And as I said before, if you saw blatant theft that bothered you so much, why didn't you call the Nassau PD? The way the world is today, we all have to be open and honest about things like that. If you accuse someone of a serious crime like this, it's unethical to make the choice to "flame" the criminals online using a pseudonym instead. You could do real harm to these folks. Tonight I'll try to look up the Ace Corporate HQ for you, and tomorrow I'll post it here for you. I hope that'll help you move on from this. Bob
lbeachmike on 04/14/2011:
I'm not fan of this store, but don't you think there is a John in just about every store? If they exist in the world, they have to work somewhere. However, there are companies which do a far better job in educating their employees. Apparently this is not one of them.
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3 Gal Sprayer
Posted by
This is the second sprayer I buy in 4 yrs and the metal wand that extends has always had pin holes in it. The problem is Ace does not make a wand to buy, u have to buy a whole new set up which costs $45 and it is not fair that you can't make an applicable wand to purchase.
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clutzycook on 07/10/2012:
I would find out who the actual manufacturer is and see if they have just the wand and Ace just doesn't sell it.
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Consumer Fraud
Posted by
CORONA, CA -- 3.5 weeks ago I purchased a Toro Trimmer from the ACE hardware store in Corona -- I have been doing business with this store for over 20 years.
The trimmer began to break and fall apart after 3 weeks of light use. Today I took it back -- the Receipt said -- "Original receipt is required for refund or exchange within 30 days" I took it back with the original receipt and was told I could not get my money back because I did not bring it back in the original box -- Now how many people keep the box after they open the product and use it. They refused to give me my money back -- I talked to a store clerk by the name of PHIL -- he was very abusive and unprofessional. He told me to come back and see the owner which I will tomorrow -- if they refuse to give me my money back -- I will be forced to file a civil suit against the store.
Beware -- this ACE store practices consumer FRAUD -- please avoid the ACE store in Corona on ^th Street and Lincoln.
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Venice09 on 08/05/2010:
If the receipt didn't say anything about original packaging, then you should get a refund.
I do keep boxes until I know the product works to my satisfaction. But I have room for that and not everyone does. It's a good idea to keep the box if you can.
tnchuck100 on 08/05/2010:
You are a little premature in claiming consumer fraud. You did state you have not spoken with the owner yet.
Sometimes a good attitude will go a long way. Give the owner a chance to make it right. Good luck.
Come back and tell us how it went.
clutzycook on 08/05/2010:
worse comes to worse, contact the manufacturer regarding the warranty. I'm sure there's at least a 1 year warranty in place.
localgod on 08/05/2010:
No fraud here...the retailer will determine if the item is able to be sold again or whether they are prepared to pay for repairs (at no cost to Toro) to be able to sell the item again. You're beef is with Toro, return policies lie with the retailer and can be revoked without cause(check the policy). If the item is not able to be sold again by the retailer, you must invoke the manufacturer's defect warranty.
Everyone claims that the big box stores are killing the ma and pa (ACE) shops, in reality, they kill themselves by standing by the crap products that are produced today. Contact Toro, have them repair their cheap product...and next time, spend a hundred extra dollars and purchase a quality product such as an Echo or a Husqavarna or a Stihl.
Ytropious on 08/05/2010:
local and clutzy have it right. I would bypass the store all together and go for Toro, the company that made the defective product in the first place. They have their own warranty that covers you. As far as the refund....well I would just go buy a new one, put the old one in THAT box, then return it. You won't be out a penny that way. I would hope they aren't all like that, then it really is Toro's fault.
bcd on 08/05/2010:
It's fraud if you have suffered a personal loss due to deceptive or intentionally misleading business practices. This is not fraud.
You purchased the packaging with the product and it's reasonable for the merchant to expect you to return all items. Consider requesting an exchange in which you take the replacement trimmer and the store keeps the packaging materials.
Helpful on 08/05/2010:
It sounds like most the commenters here have it right. This has nothing to do with fraud and the thought of it being called such, along with threating a civil suite is, well, it comes across as somewhat ridiculous. I guess some people are shocked as to the amount it costs to file a civil suite, even in small claims court. And in many cases, especially where the chance of getting the award is very unlikely, you have no hope of seeing that money again.
Retailers have the absolute right to require that the ENTIRE product be returned for a refund, much in the same way they sold it to you. That includes box, packaging, instructions or other things that may have come with the specific unit.
I thought the same thing as bcd. I'd just ask for a like for like exchange.
And, yes, I do keep boxes until I'm satisfied with a product.
old newfie on 08/06/2010:
Most companies will want to repair or exchange.(at their choice) Not many companies selling these kinds of products are willing to refund you money.
jkresta on 08/06/2010:
Thank you for your comments -- obviously none of you live in California or are familiar with the Consumer Protection Laws in the State of California -- If the product returned must be returned in the original packaging -- it must be clearly state in the store in a clear concise location or on the consumer receipt -- There were no statements to this effect in the store or on the receipt.
I did take it back to the store and spoke with the store owner "Hipenrda Patel" -- He told me he did not take back any electrical items -- all sales are final -- even though the sales receipt said other wise. He is just there to take money from the consumer and has no concern for his customers -- he just wants their money.
He told me to take it to a Toro Warranty center down the street -- I did -- they told me to take it back to the ACE store on 6th street in Corona California, because they don't service cheap junk like the Toro Trimmer I had.
I did speak with the ACE Hardware consumer department and made it very clear that if this isn't resolved as defined by the implied contract I had with the ACE store on 6th Street in Corona California (951-734-9970) -- I would be filing a claim in Small Claims court against Mr. Patel at that ACE store. Then he will have an opportunity to defend his case in court.
goduke on 08/06/2010:
It's amazing that any store willingly does business in California.
Helpful on 08/06/2010:
Jkresta, can you give us the reference and exact quote for that law? I sure have never heard of it and would like to know where it exists. Make sure to let us know what happens in court.
jktshff1 on 08/06/2010:
""Original receipt is required for refund or exchange within 30 days" That is enough to eliminate the box thing.
Like tnchuck said, talking to the owner smile, be nice and don't slam the employee. Attitude goes a long way.
PepperElf on 08/06/2010:
I don't think a smile will do much now, not if the OP has told the owner he/she is going to try taking it to court.
but yeah it'll be interesting to see how the case turns out.
any links on that law?
Venice09 on 08/06/2010:
That's how I feel too. The OP complied with the terms on the receipt. If there are no other conditions for return on the receipt or posted in the store, then the store should accept the return. To my recollection, Target and Kohl's full return policy is printed on the receipt, which is fine with me. I don't like when stores make up policies as they go along.
California does seem to have an extensive Department of Consumer Affairs. Maybe the OP should start by filing a complaint there instead of small claims court.
Helpful on 08/07/2010:
So did we ever get a reference to this alleged consumer protection law?
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Worst Customer service in a hardware store I've ever seen.
Posted by
VANCOUVER, WASHINGTON -- I bought a pipe fitting from Ace Hardware in Salmon Creek, WA to hook up my outside line (for the hose). When my husband saw the fitting he noticed that the turn knob kept turning and wouldn't tighten. However, not being plumbers, we thought it must be OK, it's brand new.
Anyway, it did turn out to be a problem, because after we put it on the water WOULDN'T turn off and was gushing everywhere. Thinking that there was something else wrong with our plumbing, we had to call a plumber and $140 later, it turns out that the pipe was defective. Thinking I was totally justified returning something that was defective, imagine my surprise when the owner would only keep repeating to me that the pipe had been "tampered" with and he couldn't take it back. Not only that, but he was rude as well. I only wanted by money back, which was $30 for having something on their shelf that could cause such an expensive problem...they should pay for the plumber too! I'll never go back, the owner of this particular Ace Hardware is a cheat.
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madconsumer on 08/28/2009:
I too have had this experience with ace hardware. I found they are good if you know exactly what you are looking for and need. next time you may be better off with lowes or Home Depot. at least they will take back the item.
andbran on 08/28/2009:
I have never had any problems returning things to Ace. when we bought our house 2 years ago I bought many things from them.
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